House of Commons
Tuesday, June 12, 1923
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Mid Kent Water Bill [ Lords ].
South Staffordshire Mond Gas Bill [ Lords ].
Southern Railway Bill [ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Petition for additional Provision (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
Broadstairs and St. Peters Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ].
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
London and North Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time upon Thursday, at a quarter-past Eight of the Clock.
Lytham Saint Anne's Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Oldham and Rochdale Corporations Water Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Sale of Bread
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government has now given consideration, as promised on 6th December last, to the question of introducing a Bill providing for the sale of bread by weight; and whether it is proposed to introduce such a Bill this Session?
It is not expected that there will be any opportunity to introduce a Sale of Bread Bill this Session, but it is intended that the Expiring Laws Bill should provide for the continuance of the relevant parts of the Sale of Food Order, until the 31st December, 1924.
Gas (Thermal Value)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee that was investigating the British thermal value in gas supply have yet reported upon the thermal value of different coals used in the manufacture of gas?
The hon. Member is, I think, under a misapprehension. The Board of Trade Committee which he presumably has in mind was appointed "to inquire and report as to the method of charging for gas on a thermal basis," and their report does not deal with the larger problem to which he refers. That problem is essentially one for the Fuel Research Board established by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and is one of the matters which is under their consideration.
Is the President of the Board of Trade not aware that on the day when I put this question referring to the thermal value of coal I got a definite promise, as contained in the OFFICIAL REPORT, that the Committee would deal with the subject, and why has this not been done?
I do not think the hon. Member got a definite promise of that kind. I said, speaking from memory, that so far as it is relevant the Committee would no doubt take it into consideration. That Committee was dealing with the special question of charging for gas by therms, and they reported that the whole of this intricate matter is being dealt with.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that on the same day when I raised the question of the disadvantage to the small gasworks in not being able to buy a certain kind of coal, I pointed out that the people using the gas would be required to pay more than the consumers under big companies, and it was in relation to some adjustment of this matter that he promised that the Committee should inquire?
I said no doubt the Committee would consider the activities which were relevant to the discussion, but I do not think that that matter was relevant.
Where does the irrelevancy come in, seeing that they were dealing with the question of thermal values all the time?
Gas (Carbon-Monoxide)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the carbon-monoxide content in gas necessary to give heat required for domestic heating and cooking?
The hon. Member's question does not seem to be one to which a precise answer can be given. The problem is one of practicability and cost rather than of physical necessity.
In relation to the questions which were put last week as to the claim now made for a non-carbon-monoxide gas, will he right hon. Gentleman give from the analysis of the gas supplied to consumers the carbon-monoxide content, and give the heat content of the gas minus this carbon-monoxide content?
No doubt that is very relevant, but it is not the question which the hon. Member has put down on the Paper.
You do not understand it.
Czechaslovakia (Commercial Treaty)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the new Clause in the proposed Commercial Treaty with Czechaslovakia specifically provides that the Safeguarding of Industries Act will not be used against Czechaslovakian goods; and whether the delay of two years since the beginning of negotiations for the Treaty is due to obstacles arising from the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
I regret that I cannot yet give information as to the purport of the new Clause which has provisionally been agreed upon. The delay in the conclusion of the Treaty is due to a number of causes, some of which are still under discussion.
May we take it that the Safeguarding of Industries Act will not be repealed by a Treaty without reference to the House?
The hon. and gallant Member may take it that nothing unconstitutional will be done. If anything is done under any Treaty it will be done in accordance with the law.
Seamen (Leaving at North American Ports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the number of seamen and their ratings who have left British vessels at North American and Canadian ports since the beginning of March; and how many vessels have returned without the full complement of men?
I am forwarding the hon. Member a statement showing the number of seamen and their ratings who have left British vessels at North American and Canadian ports since the beginning of March, but I am not in a position to furnish the information asked for in the latter part of his question.
Is it not within the knowledge of the Board of Trade that a very large number of seamen have left British ships at ports abroad, and is the right hon. Gentleman not in a position to state how many ships have returned without their full complements of men? Are these statistics not often compiled by the right hon. Gentleman's Department?
In order to get the statistics asked for it would entail going through every single agreement of every ship which has left the port. I think that would be very expensive and very unnecessary.
Is there not danger to the travelling public when these American liners leave without full complements of men?
I am not prepared to give an answer to a purely hypothetical question.
What is the reason why so many British seamen are leaving British ships? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many complaints about the manner in which they are recruited and dealt with after recruitment?
That question does not arise.
Imperial Economic Conference
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee which has been formed to assist in framing the detailed agenda of the Imperial Economic Conference is intended to represent British industry as a whole; and, if so, whether a seat on that Committee is being reserved for the representative of the greatest British producing industry, namely, agriculture?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to state the steps he is taking to acquaint himself with British financial, industrial, and commercial opinion on the subjects to be discussed at the forthcoming Imperial Economic Conference?
The gentlemen who occupy the position of President of the following organisations, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, the British Bankers' Association, the Chamber of Shipping and the Federation of British Industries, have agreed to assist me as expert advisers on commercial questions arising in connection with the forthcoming Imperial Economic Con- ference. As regards agriculture, I have been in consultation with the Minister of Agriculture, and I understand that he proposes to confer with representatives of this important industry.
Will there be any representative of the consumers at this Conference?
These gentlemen are expert advisers on any technical and commercial matters. I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman may trust the Government to represent the consumers.
Will the Merchandise Marks Bill be discussed at this Conference?
I think that probably the very full discuss/ion which is being given to that Measure may exhaust its possibilities.
Does the President of the Board of Trade propose to give any representation to business interests not connected with the Chambers of Commerce?
I think in getting together a small advisory body of this kind it is necessary to have it small and thoroughly representative. By selecting the four bodies which I have named I think the House will agree that I have taken the four most prominent representative bodies that exist.
Has the right hon. Gentleman not heard of the Co-operative movement?
I have, but I still adhere to the statement which I have made.
Russia (British and American Trade)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the total value of the imports from Russia to Great Britain during the past year and the total value of the exports from Great Britain to Russia during the same period and what was the value of the exports and imports between Russia and the United States of America during the same period?
The declared value of imports into the United Kingdom, registered as consigned from Russia, amounted in 1922 to £8,176,000, and the exports of United Kingdom produce and manufactures and of foreign and colonial merchandise consigned to Russia, to £3,679,000 and £1,038,000 respectively. Imports into the United States of America from Russia amounted to $964,000 and exports from the United States to Russia to $29,895,000 during the same year.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that the trade between Russia and the United States appears to be more considerable than the trade between this country and Russia, notwithstanding the fact that there is no trade agreement between America and Russia?
I think everyone knows that certain commodities are largely bought from the United States, but, generally speaking, I think that the Russian Government buy where it suits them best.
Would the figures include food and medicines sent to the famine areas?
Certainly; they include food, and a very large quantity of other things as well.
Is is not a fact that the trade agreement is quite unnecessary?
Loss of S.S. "Marvale" (Treatment of Crew)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the crew of the "Marvale," the wrecked Canadian Pacific liner, were only paid wages up to the day the vessel went on the rocks; that the crew have lost all their effects; and that they have complained of treatment received on the passage home on the "Melita"; and whether he will take steps to compel the company to compensate the men for the loss sustained by them, and will make inquiry as to the treatment of the men from the date of the vessel's sinking until their return home to the United Kingdom?
Under the present law the right to wages terminates on the loss of the vessel, and there is no power to require owners to pay compensation for lost effects. No complaint has been received as to the treatment of the crew on the passage home, but if the hon. Member will be good enough to forward the complaint to me, I will have it investigated.
Enemy Action Claims
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that certain applicants for reparation payments allege that claims were lodged by them in December, 1919, and later, the receipt of which was never acknowledged by the Reparation Claims Department; that these applicants are now informed on making a second application that the time for lodging claims has expired; and what action they must take to establish their claims?
The Reparation Claims Department did not exist till January, 1920. If applicants can furnish proof of previous applications to other Departments, I will have them submitted to the Royal Commission, the authority which alone has competence in all matters relating to the distribution of the £5,000,000 provided for making ex gratia awards to civilian sufferers from enemy action. If the hon. and gallant Member will mention the name of any claimant he has in mind, I will have inquiries made as to the position of the claim.
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the many hard cases of British subjects injured by enemy action and widows of British seamen who lost their lives at sea during the submarine campaign who have not received any reparation or only a very small payment on account; whether the £5,000,000 granted by the Government on account of reparations has all been expended or allotted; and whether he will consider making a further grant on account in order to relieve these many serious cases?
£1,800,000 has been distributed under the First Report of the Royal Commission. The payments represent the full sum awarded in each case by the Royal Commission, and are not payments on account. The Board have no authority to make grants otherwise than in accordance with the recommendation of the Commission. The Royal Commission are now engaged in examining other claims, and as soon as their Second Report has been completed, it will be laid before Parliament.
In cases where partial claims have been satisfied, are their any funds available for further payments to those who have received partial compensation?
No, the only sum available is the £5,000,000 which was voted by the House, which, it was agreed, should be distributed in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission. They dealt with one class of case and made their final awards on them. They are now proceeding with other cases. I do not anticipate that there will be any sums left over to go back to cases which have already been dealt with.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many scores of cases where the applicants are informed the £5,000,000 is already allocated and they will have to wait for a further grant, and will the Government consider making further grants in view of the distress of these people?
I do not think that there ought to be any misunderstanding about the position. There is this sum of £5,000,000, and that is in the discretion of the Commission. The Prime Minister said some time ago he did not think it would be possible to increase that amount. The discretion rests with the Commissioners.
British Army
Recruiting Regulations (Vaccination)
asked the Under-secretary of State for War for how long the recruiting regulation requiring intending recruits to promise to be vaccinated if accepted as soldiers was suspended from January, 1916; for what reason it was suspended; whether its suspension led to any increase of smallpox in the Army; and, if not, for what reason was it reintroduced into the recruiting regulations?
The regulation was suspended, in anticipation of the introduction of compulsory service, until January, 1919, when recruiting reopened for normal engagements. Its suspension was followed by an increase in smallpox in the Army in the later years of the War.
Scots Guards
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that Scottish troops have no full-dress uniform, he will arrange for one battalion of Scots Guards to be stationed at Edinburgh so as to satisfy national pride?
I regret that it would not be administratively practicable to have a battalion of the Scots Guards constantly quartered at Edinburgh.
May I ask my hon. and gallant Friend is he not aware that the High Commissioner represents the King on every important occasion in Scotland; is he also aware that during the last visit of the High Commissioner he was escorted by men of the Highland Light Infantry without full dress, and that this was regarded as an insult to His Majesty?
From the general point of view, I only base myself on administrative possibilities. It is obvious, as there are only two battalions of Scots Guards that it is not possible for them to be in Edinburgh, and to do duty at London and Windsor without sacrificing training facilities which they now enjoy.
Would it not be possible for men of the Highland Regiments quartered in Edinburgh to have the full dress of their regiment? Surely Scotland ought to be treated with some courtesy and respect in this matter?
Young Men's Christian Association (Cologne Area)
asked the Under-secretary of State for War whether the Young Men's Christian Association establishments in the Cologne area were selling intoxicating liquors in competition with the Army canteens; whether this was the reason for closing them; and whether, during the War and since, intoxicating liquors were sold in their establishments in this country and elsewhere?
I am not aware of any sales of liquor by the Young Men's Christian Association, either at Cologne or elsewhere, but if the hon. Member can give me any information I shall be glad to look into it. The closing of the establishments within barrack precincts at Cologne did not turn on any question of such sales.
Boy Welfare (Woolwich Arsenal)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he has received appeals to restart the welfare work which for some time was carried on among boys employed in the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich; whether he has given consideration to these appeals; and whether, seeing that the cost of about £400 per year involved in carrying on the work was small in proportion to its educational and civic value, he will consent to its being restarted?
Representations in this connection have been received. The question of continuing the development of welfare work for boys in Woolwich Arsenal has been under consideration, and the appointment of welfare supervisor will, I hope, be reconstituted at an early date.
Navy and Army Canteens Board (Pensions)
asked the Under-secretary of State for War, seeing that £318,800 has been allocated for pensions to officials employed under the Navy and Army Canteens Board, whether the terms of service included a promise of pensions; and if such pensions have actually been paid what was the length of service for those who have received them?
Out of the total sum indicated, £100,000 was reserved by the late Navy and Army Canteen Board for the purpose of setting up a superannuation fund and was shown accordingly in their accounts. No details, however, have yet been worked out by the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes, and I understand that no promises of superannuation benefits have yet been given to individuals. The balance of about £218,000 is not for superannuation purposes, but for the capitalised value of wound, disability, and death pensions to canteen personnel who were killed and disabled through service during the late War. The terms of engagement of these men included a right to disability benefits under the same conditions as soldiers, payable out of canteen funds.
Watford Munitions Factory (Miss D. Murray)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will give further attention to the case of Miss Daisy Murray, who volunteered for service in the Watford munitions factory and who, in consequence of being put to the dangerous occupation of powder-making, is now a physical wreck and permanently disabled; and will he state the reasons for the repudiation of all responsibility for her present destitute condition by his Department, having regard to the facts that it was a War Department factory in which she was entered and in the service of the War Department that she sustained the injuries from the effects of which she continues to suffer?
I have been asked to answer the question. This claim has already been the subject of the most careful investigation, including a medical examination in March last by a specialist who is eminent as an authority on T.N.T. poisoning. The result of this examination confirmed the medical evidence which the Disposal and Liquidation Commission had previously obtained in the case, and which indicated that the claimant's condition was not the result of her occupation. In these circumstances her claim, to compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act cannot be admitted.
Are we to understand from this answer that all further responsibility with respect to this unfortunate girl is repudiated by all the Government Departments? Is there no possibility of this case being re-considered in view of its gravity?
The medical evidence I have is quite conclusive that the unfortunate condition of this girl has nothing to do with her employment in the public service, but if the hon. Gentleman can give me any reason for re-opening the case and can prove in any way the girl is suffering from poisoning or anything of the kind sustained in the Government service, I will reconsider it.
I will see that the right hon. Gentleman has the information.
Scotland
Intermediate Schools
asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether it is intended to abolish intermediate schools in Scotland; and, if not, whether he can state what will be the effect of the new code on them?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The Department are of opinion that the draft Regulations now under consideration make full provision for the development of the instruction hitherto given in schools of the kind referred to.
Agricultural Rates
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health what is approximately the number of farmers in Scotland who will benefit from the relief from local taxation to be provided by the Agricultural Rates Bill; and what will be the average amount of relief afforded annually to each farmer under the Bill if it passes into law?
The number of occupiers of farms in Scotland is estimated approximately at 65,000, and on the basis of the current rates the average annual relief per farm under the provisions of the Agricultural Rates Bill may be put at about £7 10s. The amount of relief to the farmer will depend upon whether he is a tenant or an occupying owner and on the rating position in the particular parish in which the farm is situated.
Edinburgh Castle Garrison
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health why Scottish troops had to leave the barracks in Edinburgh Castle; and whether this was due to any action on the part of the Scottish Office?
I understand that the troops in question have been moved to Redford as a temporary measure, but that the whole question of the quartering of troops in Edinburgh is under consideration. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is it not the fact that these soldiers were turned out of the barracks at Edinburgh Castle on account of the war memorial which is under construction, and which was recommended by the Scottish Office?
The answer I have already given is the answer to the question which the hon. and gallant Member asked, namely, whether this was due to any action on the part of the Scottish Office. I have replied most definitely that it was not so due.
Will the Scottish Office approach the War Office, with a view to having once again a Scottish regiment, or a detachment of a Scottish regiment, in Edinburgh Castle, where they have been for centuries?
Obviously, the War Office is a United Kingdom Department, and can be approached directly by hon. Members interested.
Has the Scottish Office no interest in the historic castle of Edinburgh?
That question does not arise out of the answer which has been given.
Ness Harbour
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware that in the Bay of Ness, at the Island of Lewis, the breakwater was partially broken down during the War and, not having been repaired, increases the danger to the fishermen in normal weather and makes access to the harbour in stormy weather impossible; and will he give orders to have the breakwater repaired immediately?
Although some additional injury was suffered by this breakwater during the War, its damaged condition is of much longer standing. The circumstances of the breakwater and harbour were fully investigated 20 years ago, and it was decided by the Government then in office that the expenditure involved in repairing them was so large, and out of proportion to the advantage to be gained, that no further action should be taken. The position was reviewed in 1920 by the Government then in office, and it was decided that no expenditure upon the repair of the breakwater would be justified. Looking to other calls on the funds of the Board of Agriculture and the Fishery Board, my Noble Friend is not prepared to authorise the offer to the harbour trustees of any grant towards expenditure on repairs.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that for many a year the people of this Port of Ness were very comfortable and fairly well off, but that, as a result of this breakwater having been broken down, they are now practically faced with destitution; and also will he bear in mind—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]—if it were an Irish question you would all pay attention. I want the hon. and gallant Gentleman to bear in mind that the people in this place were one of the most valuable assets that the British Empire had in policing the North Sea during the Great War. Will he answer some of that?
The hon. Member should put it down.
I think we should have an answer. I do not think it is very fair—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] Mr. Speaker will tell me if I am not in order.
Trawling (Lewis)
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that the fishermen in the Island of Lewis are being deprived of their means of livelihood by the trawlers, which are taking not only fish but also destroying the spawn in the fish beds; and will he take steps to see that those in default will be deprived of fishing rights?
I am aware of the complaints of illegal trawling which have been made by the Lewis fishermen. Every effort is being made by the Fishery Board to detect and prevent illegal trawling, and, in present circumstances, my Noble Friend does not propose that the existing penalties should be supplemented in the manner suggested in the second part of the question.
Fishing Boats (Loss)
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that during the War the fishermen of Scotland in some cases lost their fishing boats, and in others boats were damaged; and what steps he proposes to take to refund the losses sustained by these men?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. During the years following the Armistice, ex-service fishermen who had suffered such losses had opportunities of making application for assistance under schemes financed from the Development Fund and from the funds at the disposal of the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Department. In the case of losses resulting from enemy action fishermen were entitled to lodge their claims with the Reparation Claims Department for registration. On such claims forwarded by Scottish fishermen through the Fishery Board payments have been made in 112 cases. My Noble Friend does not see his way to take any steps to supplement the assistance which has been rendered from the sources mentioned.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware of the fact that in and around the Island of Lewis the vast majority of the fishermen were away all the time at the War, that during that period their fishing boats were destroyed, and that now, when they have come home, they have no fishing boats, and, therefore, have no means of earning their livelihood? Surely, you will make him give an answer to the question? [HON MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] This is a question affecting Scotland. I do not care what hon. Members say; something has got to be done.
May I ask whether the funds to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has referred are still available for these fishermen?
I should require notice as to exactly what funds are still available. The Civil Liabilities Fund, of course, is not now available, but some of the Development Fund schemes are. As to the Reparation schemes, if we get the support of hon. Members opposite we may have considerable funds available.
rose ——
also rose ——
The hon. Member must please remember that he must not remain standing when I rise. Perhaps he will put his question with regard to details down on the Paper.
Agricultural Education and Research
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health how much of the £150,000 set aside for the purposes of agricultural education and research in Scotland by the Corn Production Act Repeal Act has been spent or allocated, and in what manner the money has been dealt with?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardine and Western Aberdeen (Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray) on 8th March last. The following additional sums have since been allocated from the sum of £150,000:
£ West of Scotland Agricultural College—Erection of Silo 250 Glasgow Veterinary College—Capital Expenditure 100 University College, Dundee—Special Investigation 80
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the amount of the annual deficiency on occupiers' rates at present borne by the ratepayers in Scotland in respect of the relief given to occupiers of agricultural subjects under the provisions of the Agricultural Rates, Congested Districts, and Burgh Land Tax Relief (Scotland) Act, 1896; and whether it is intended, under the provisions of the new Agricultural Rates Bill, to continue this existing burden on the shoulders of the Scottish ratepayers?
A recent estimate of the annual reduction in the produce of the rates on agricultural occupiers corresponding to the ⅝ths relief on the rating basis given under the Act of 1896 puts the amount, on the basis of current rates, at approximately £700,000, while the relative grant, which is computed on the basis of the rates levied in 1896, is approximately £180,000. It is not proposed, in the new Agricultural Rates Bill, to give any further grant in respect of that deficiency.
So that there will be still a deficiency of something like £500,000 a year left on the shoulders of the ratepayers?
Yes, Sir.
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health what is the amount of the local rates payable in respect of agricultural lands and heritages in Scotland during the last completed year, giving separately the county rates and the parish rates?
On the basis of the average rates levied by county councils and parish councils in 1920–21, it is estimated that the amount of local rates payable in respect of agricultural lands and heritages in that year was
£ County rates … … 716,000 Parish rates … … 975,000 Total … … £1,691,000
Poorhouses
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware that many poorhouses in Scotland are not nearly occupied owing to old age pensions and other reasons; that in some counties one poorhouse could house all applicants, whilst there are often three or four poorhouses fully staffed incurring extra costs to the ratepayers; and whether he is prepared, in the interests of economy, to take steps to alter the present position?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 8th May to the question on this subject addressed to me by the hon. and learned Member for East Fife. I may add that the Scottish Board of Health are at present considering the possibility of closing some of the smaller Scottish poorhouses.
Ex-Service Men (Land Settlement, Scotland)
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, having regard to the assurances recently given that the Government's programme on land settlement in the Highlands would be accelerated, he will reconsider at an early date the applications for small holdings and enlargements made by certain ex-service men in the village of Reay, Caithness?
I am informed that in October, 1921, the applicants in question were given an opportunity of applying for holdings recently formed by the Board of Agriculture in the neighbourhood. They refused and thereby forfeited their claim to consideration as first preference ex-service men. In these circum- stances it is not proposed to reconsider the applications as suggested in the question.
Is the hon. And gallant Member aware that the holdings which these men refused have not been a success, and that the Government have had to agree to a re-valuation of them and to bring the rents down? Are these men to be penalised because they had the shrewdness to perceive, and the honesty to admit, that they could not fulfil the terms of the contract which they were offered by the Board of Agriculture?
The re-valuation of these small holdings is not exceptional in any way. It would be very unjust to the men who had the courage to take them that they should be penalised in respect of the other men.
But why should these men be penalised because they refused the terms laid down by the Board of Agriculture?
The hon. and gallant Member is under some misapprehension. These men have not been penalised. The Government made them an offer of small holdings, which they refused. There is no penalisation on one side or the other.
Have they not now been placed at the bottom of the list? Is not that a penalty?
Have not these small holdings had to be re-valued? Is it not the case that because these men refused to take them on the exorbitant terms laid down by the Board, their names have now been placed at the bottom of the list?
That is an entire misconception. These men were offered small holdings and they refused them. As long as others remained willing to take the holdings on these terms, obviously it is common sense to satisfy the men who want them before the men who do not want them.
Was there any ex-service men in that locality who took any small holding before it was re-valued?
Certainly, ex-service men in the locality did take the small holdings before they were re-valued.
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, having regard to the assurances recently given that the Government's programme on land settlement in the Highlands would be accelerated, he will reconsider at an early date the applications of certain crofters in Strath-halladale for the enlargement of their holdings, according to a scheme prepared by the Board of Agriculture in 1916; and whether he is aware that the majority of crofts in this strath are at present too small to be self supporting?
My Noble Friend recognises that the crofts in question might with advantage be enlarged, although it appears to be going too far to describe them as too small to be self-supporting. It is not practicable, however, to reconsider the matter because the land desired by the applicants for enlargements is at present occupied by six small tenants whose average rents only amount to about £28.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that these applications date back to 1915 and that in 1916 there was a scheme set on foot by the Board of Agriculture under winch five new holdings would have been created and some enlargements would have been given? Cannot this scheme be now revived and put into operation?
Where would the advantage come in of taking land from one set of smallholders and giving it to another set? Surely that is an unreasonable suggestion.
But obviously under this particular scheme in 1916 there would have been five new small holdings as well as some enlargements.
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, having regard to the assurances recently given that the Government's programme in the Highlands would be accelerated, he will reconsider at an early date the application of the small holders at Little Torboll, in the parish of Dornoch, Sutherland, for enlargements to their holdings which are now too small to be self-supporting?
My Noble Friend regrets that he cannot undertake to reconsider the demand of these applicants in view of the fact that they are not ex-service men and that the land they apply for could only be made available at very heavy cost.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that these three ex-service men had four sons serving in the War and that these sons wish to live on the holdings with their parents and share in the enlargements, application for which was made in 1915?
Here again the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. These men are not ex-service men. [HON. MEMBERS: "Their sons are!"]
I beg to give notice that, in consequence of the unsatisfactory reply which I have received, I will, with permission, draw attention to this question on the Motion for Adjournment on Thursday night.
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health how many applications for holdings have been received from ex-service men by the Scottish Board of Agriculture since the Armistice in November, 1918; and how many of those men have since received holdings?
Since the date mentioned, the total numbers of applications received by the Board of Agriculture from ex-service men for new holdings and enlargements, respectively, are 7,114 and 281. These figures include, however, cases in which applications are ineffective owing to withdrawal, unsuitability of the applicants, or other causes. During the same period ex-service men have been settled in 1,304 new holdings and 164 enlargements.
That is to say, 6,000 people who have applied for holdings during the last four years, relying on the promise of the Government, have not got their holdings?
That is correct, Sir; they have not, so far, got them.
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health how many applications have been received from among ex-service men in the county of Linlithgow for small holdings; and how many have been granted?
The Board of Agriculture have received 70 applications from ex-service men in the county of West Lothian. Ten of these applicants have been settled in holdings.
Why has the process been so slow, and does the hon. and gallant Gentleman propose to accelerate it?
I think it would take too long by process of question and answer to give an account of the details of the process of land settlement in Scotland.
Cannot the hon. and gallant Gentleman say why, when 70 applications have been made by ex-service men, only 10 have been granted?
There are many causes for that. For instance, very great protection has recently been given to tenants. Even if we buy land, it is a difficult matter to dispossess tenants, and there are other reasons I cannot discuss at the moment.
Coal Industry
Welfare Levy
asked the Secretary for Mines what has been accomplished under the welfare levy of 1d. per ton on coal for the social improvement of miners' conditions?
The total sum collected under the provisions of the Act, and received by way of interest on the fund's investments up to 31st May last, was £2,146,798, of which approximately £972,000 has so far been allocated by the Miners' Welfare Committee to local purposes. Of these 192 are outdoor recreation schemes, such as sports ground, parks, etc., and 176 are miners' clubs, institutes, or village halls. Other local schemes so far sanctioned include convalescent homes, hospital, ambulance and nursing services and pithead baths. From the central or reserved one-fifth part of the fund, allocations amounting in all to about £60,000 have so far been made towards research work in connection with the health and safety of miners. The hon. Member will find further details of the administration of the fund in the Report of the Miners' Welfare Committee for the years 1921 and 1922, which is about to be published by the Stationery Office.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the very great difficulty experienced by the district committees in getting the central committee to make a grant more rapid than at present, and will he accelerate the grant?
I do not want to interfere, if I have the power, with the work of the central committee, which is going very smoothly. There are undoubtedly some delays, but in all cases they have been got over. It is well to go slowly rather than make a mistake.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman inquire into the causes of this very large balance being retained, in view of the urgent need for more liberal expenditure?
It is a mistake to go too quickly. One must be sure of going the right way.
Pit-Head Baths
asked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been drawn to the statement contained in the Report of the Medical Officer of Health for the Cannock urban district urging the necessity for pit-head baths being established; whether he has been in communication with the local authority and the mine owners on the matter; and what steps does he propose to take in the matter?
I have seen the statement referred to, but under the law as it stands at present I have no power to secure the carrying out of the recommendation contained it in. On the general question of extending the installation of pit-head baths, by an amendment of the law or otherwise, the right hon. Gentleman will remember that conferences were held last year by my predecessor with representatives of the Mining Association and Miners' Federation, and that he, while recognising that the time was not suitable for reforms imposing expenditure on the industry, expressed his strong opinion that further consideration of the question should not be deferred longer than was necessary to enable conditions in the industry to reach a reasonable degree of stability. I share this view, and the right hon. Gentleman may rest assured that the matter will not be lost sight of.
Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it time the law was made compulsory for the provision of pit-head baths, seeing that this is about the only country where they are not imposed, and is he aware that there is a growing demand on the part of miners for them?
I am glad to think there is a growing demand, and I hope it is gradually being met. Certainly we are very much behind other countries. Anything I can do to encourage them I certainly will.
Nationalise the mines!
Subsidencies
asked the Secretary for Mines if the terms of reference to the Royal Commission on Subsidences enable the Commission to deal with the question of reducing or preventing subsidence by stowing and packing; and, if not, will he see that the terms of reference are so amended as to include this object, in view of the number of accidents in mines due to the falls of roof and sides?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The second part does not, therefore, arise.
Transport
Vehicles (Lights)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether the Government has any intention of introducing, this Session, a Bill to give effect to all or any of the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into the question of lights on road vehicles; and, if so, how soon?
I am afraid that the state of Parliamentary business will not permit of the introduction during this Session of a Bill dealing with lights on road vehicles.
Is there any intention of introducing a Measure in the Autumn Session, if there be one?
That I could not say.
Road Fund (Grants to Scotland)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport what part of the special allocation from the Road Fund of £1,250,000 will be payable to local authorities in Scotland; what class of work will qualify for participation in the allocation; when it is proposed to commence this work; and how will the allocation be made between the different authorities?
No part of the £1,250,000 will be available for local authorities in Scotland, but a separate special provision of £250,000 has been made for that country. That provision will be available for grants to any kind of road improvement, including improvement of surface, and I am in consultation with the Secretary for Scotland as to the best method of allocation, so that the commencement of work may be expedited.
Road Repairs, London
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether the Ministry of Transport look with favour upon the continuation of road repairs in the central area of London by night and day; and, if so, whether they have taken any steps, directly or indirectly, to bring this about?
The heavy additional expense of conducting road repairs continuously day and night, as is sometimes done in the centre of London, can only be justified in exceptional circumstances, and I am not prepared to express an opinion in general terms as to the advisability of extending that method. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman make representations to the local authorities whether they will be prepared to work the men seven or eight-hour shifts, so as to facilitate the work?
I will consider that.
Traffic (Aerial Photographs)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether any steps have so far been taken or, if not, whether they can be taken, in conjunction with the Air Ministry, to compile an aerial photographic record of the traffic conditions on the main arteries of traffic and at the various local points in the Metropolitan police area during the various hours of the day?
The answer is in the negative. I may add that records of traffic conditions on the main arteries of traffic have been secured by my Department by means of the census taken on all Class I roads in August last, the results of which will shortly be published. It is hoped to repeat this census at regular intervals. In addition, the Metropolitan police authorities collect similar statistics in their area at annual intervals. I am of opinion that this method gives more precise results, at less expense, than would be obtained by the means suggested in my Noble Friend's question.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that in the ordinary course of their training the Air Force have secured photographs of traffic which might be of the greatest possible use to the Department?
I will certainly confer with my right hon. Friend, but as at present advised I think the census is the best way of getting at the real conditions.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the possibility of taking aerial photographs of "scorchers" who are tearing up the roads?
Lausanne Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to make any statement on the progress of the peace negotiations at Lausanne?
No, Sir; my right hon. Friend must adhere for the present to the reply given to my hon Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness on the 2nd of May.
Will that statement be made in this House not later than in another place?
Royal Navy
Naval Base, Singapore
asked the Prime Minister upon what date the late Government decided to establish a new naval base at Singapore and at what date did the present Government decide to confirm that policy?
In June, 1921, the Government of the day decided that the naval base at Singapore should be developed to meet the needs of a modern Fleet. This policy was re-affirmed in February, 1923.
and
rose ——
We are very slow with Questions to-day.
Air Arm
asked the Prime Minister when the decision will be taken as to the allocation of a sufficient air force to the Navy so as to secure its war efficiency?
As has frequently been stated in this House the Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence is inquiring into this question, but I am not yet in a position to state when they will report.
Lady Cowans (Pension)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the claims of Lady Cowans, widow of the late Quartermaster-General, to a pension or gratuity in recognition of the distinguished services rendered by her late husband to the State?
Lady Cowans is in receipt of the pension to which she is entitled under Army Regulations. She has also been offered, but has declined, a Civil List pension.
Is it not a fact that Sir John Cowans during his life received no special pecuniary recognition for his extraordinary services to the country——
The hon. Member is reading his question.
Cannot the Government consider the desirability of giving Lady Cowans a grant, in view of the fact that her husband was the only member of the Army Council during the whole of the Great War; that he was responsible for the entire feeding of the British Army in every theatre of war, and will they also recollect the fact that other distinguished generals, who got large grants from State, did not, in the opinion of many, do nearly as much for their country?
rose ——
The question on the Paper has been answered.
Compassionate Fund
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the large number of cases of men and their dependants who are not able to establish entitlement to pension payment by the State, he will consider the desirability of establishing a charitable compassionate fund, under which, with due supervision, assistance could be given to meet the urgency requirements of the people concerned?
I assume that my hon. Friend is referring only to cases of ex-service men and their dependants who are not able to establish claims for pension under the Royal Warrants. It is not considered desirable to set up a compassionate fund for such cases.
Scottish Estimates
asked the Prime Minister whether he will be prepared to give two days for discussion of the Scottish Estimates during the present Session?
As the hon. and learned Member is aware, this is not a matter which rests with the Government but one for arrangement through the usual channels.
Is it not open to the Government to give us 23 Supply days, and have they not announced that we are only to have 21 days? In that case will the Government put down a Motion to give us two additional days?
Will the Government give us two days in view of the fact that last year we were not able to discuss a great number of Scottish questions?
I do not think it is possible to give an extra day, owing to the condition of public business. Of course, I will pass on to the Prime Minister what the hon. Members have said, but I can hold out no hope.
In view of the fact that the Government are trying to undermine the education system of Scotland, is it not possible to give an extra day?
Unemployment (Lace Industey, Nottingham)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the increase of unemployment in Nottingham; and whether he proposes to take any steps to remedy the distressed condition of Nottingham's staple industry, namely, the lace trade?
The Prime Minister is aware of the condition of the lace industry, and after consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has decided that, having regard to all the circumstances, the most practical course is to set up a small Committee to inquire into the causes of the serious unemployment in this industry and to report what steps can be taken to improve the position.
Is the Government prepared to set up a Committee to deal with every industry that is suffering?
Are not the circumstances prevailing in the lace industry quite exceptional, and not generally applicable to any industry?
When will the hon. Gentleman be able to give us the terms of reference of the Committee?
Will the shoddy trade, which has been very bad for some years, be included?
That does not arise out of the question.
Income Tax
Dominion and United States Steamers
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the earnings of steamers of the United States Shipping Board line are subject to the same rates of Income Tax as the earnings of other foreign steamers which are privately owned?
The question of the application of the Income Tax law of this country to profits earned by steamers of the United States Shipping Board has not yet actually arisen. The general question of the liability to British taxation of the trading concerns of Dominion and foreign Governments will be discussed at the forthcoming Economic Conference.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the profits of the Commonwealth Line are exempted from Income Tax in this country?
The whole question of the liability of Government lines will be discussed with the Dominions at the Conference.
In that case, am I to understand that so far these profits have been exempted?
The question I have been asked deals with the United States Shipping Board and not with the Commonwealth Line. I shall be prepared to give an answer about the Commonwealth Line if the hon. Member will put down a question. In regard to the United States line the question has not yet arisen.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Commonwealth Government levy Income Tax upon the gross profits of all the steamers trading with Australia?
The hon. Member had better put that question on the Paper.
Four per Cent. War Loan (Irish Free State)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, in moving the final reading of the Finance Bill in the Dail, Mr. Cosgrave announced that the tax compounded 4 per cent. War Loan was to be subject to Free State Income Tax; and whether, seeing that in the Treaty provision was made to obviate the double payment of Income Tax and that this announcement conflicts directly with this Clause, he will say what steps he proposes to take to prevent the equivalent of a double Income Tax being charged on these and other tax compounded securities?
Dividends on 4 per cent. War Loan are, under the terms of the prospectus, exempt from British Income Tax: but it is, of course, open to the Free State Government, like any Dominion Government, to tax such dividends if received by residents in their territory. There are no provisions relating to double taxation in the Treaty. The permissive provisions of Section 5 of the Consequential Provisions Act are not relevant, as no question of double taxation arises.
Is not the difference of 1 per cent. between the 4 per cent. tax free loan, and 5 per cent. loan, the equivalent of Income Tax which is levied already in this country, and will not the Treasury take that into consideration?
I do not think it is. The 4 per cent. loan is free of Income Tax; therefore in the event of the Irish Government placing an Income Tax upon it where it is held in Ireland, there is no double Income Tax.
Is not the imposition of this tax upon a security distinctly issued as a tax free security, a breach of good faith, and will the Government represent to the Irish Government that they must not infringe the rights of British subjects?
We cannot now deal with the matter.
Herring Fishing Industry
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the depressed state of the herring fishing industry, which has caused a great depreciation in the property connected with the fishing business, and considering that the revaluation of fishing premises under the Finance Act, 1922, would at the present time produce unfair results, he will take the necessary steps to safeguard them from increased charges under Income Tax, Schedule C, 1923–24?
I have caused inquiry to be made into this matter, and I am assured that in the assessment of property connected with the herring fishery business due regard has been paid in the various localities to the present state of that industry. In any case in which an assessment is considered to be excessive and agreement is not reached with the Inspector of Taxes, the taxpayer has, of course, the right of appeal to the local Income Tax Commissioners, who will, no doubt, be well acquainted with the existing conditions in their neighbourhood.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow this property to be re-assessed this year as he is going to allow other properties, without its being necessary to wait five years for re-assessment?
I will consider that point.
Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Treasury is about to grant, or has granted, to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company a sum not exceeding £2,300,000, under the Trade Facilities Act; and for what purpose is this money granted?
The Treasury has agreed, on the recommendation of the Trade Facilities Act Advisory Committee, to guarantee the principal and interest of a loan not exceeding £2,300,000 to be raised by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company for expenditure in Great Britain in connection with the construction of three ships for the company.
Why is such a wealthy and immense company as this granted facilities, and not smaller companies?
The object of the Act is to do the utmost to provide work for people in this country. It does not matter to us whether the work is provided by a rich company or a poor company.
Is it true that the whole of the work involved is to be undertaken in Belfast shipbuilding yards: and if that report be true, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the matter is put right?
The hon. Member has not listened to me. If he will read my answer to-morrow he will see that it is literally and textually correct. The money that is being guaranteed is in respect of work which will be done here—in Great Britain.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these ships are now going to the one place, Belfast, and in order to secure that other areas may obtain some benefit from this work, will he see that some of the work is given to other places?
It is true that certain ships are being built in Belfast, but the amount of money which we have guaranteed will all be expended on plates and iron and steel work in Great Britain, which will be taken over to Belfast and put into the ships, so that the work represented by the £2,300,000 will all be done here.
Is it not a fact that this money provided under the Trade Facilities Act was not intended for rich companies, and is it not a fact that many of the poorer companies were refused financial assistance because they were poor?
The right hon. Gentleman is not correct in his assumption. It was never intended to confine the advances by the British Government to poor companies. We prefer good security if we can get it.
Perpetual Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is prepared to approach the persons to whom perpetual pensions are being paid to ascertain the terms on which the present recipients would consent to the pensions being terminated?
I do not think it desirable to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on the 15th May.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the danger of continuing these perpetual pensions for a very much longer time?
The hon. Member is not advancing his own cause. If he asks questions relating to the negotiations, how can we negotiate with the holders of these pensions?
Runnymede
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any arrangements are in prospect for the disposal of the property which includes the site of Runnymede; and, if so, whether he will consider the offer made by the Sulgrave Institution of America to purchase this site and to hold it in trust for the promotion of Anglo-American friendship?
I have been asked to reply for the Minister of Agriculture in his capacity as a Commissioner of Woods. The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the latter part, no application has been received from the Sulgrave Institution to purchase the Crown land which bears the traditional name of Runnymede.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that a lot of English people would regret very much to see a national institution of this sort sold to people of another country?
Wills (Official Copies)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of copies of wills supplied by the principal probate registry during the last complete year for which the figures are available to applicants within the London postal area and to applicants outside the London postal area, respectively?
I have been asked to reply. The figures for the year 1922 are: Within the London postal area, 7,965; outside that area, 5,614.
Ministry of Labour (Staff Reorganisation)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the reorganisation of the Ministry of Labour has yet been completed; if so, what steps have been I taken during regrading to put into operation Clause 2 of the Resolution of the House of 5th August, 1921, as to equality of opportunity for women; what branches of the Ministry previously closed to women have now been opened to them; whether women have now been excluded from any branch in which they were employed on 5th August, 1921; and what steps have been taken to ensure that women have an opportunity of training for the higher posts in the Department irrespective of those posts which involve solely supervision of staff?
I have been asked to reply. The reorganisation of the permanent staff of the Ministry of Labour is now practically settled and officers have been posted to the appropriate duties under the scheme. The question of putting into operation Clause 2 of the Resolution of this House of 5th August, 1921, has been fully considered and the reorganisation scheme has throughout been framed with this Resolution in view. So far from women having been excluded as a result of the reorganisation, the effect has been to increase the opportunities afforded to them to occupy higher posts in the Department and these opportunities are not confined to posts involving supervision of staff.
Has the reorganisation been responsible for the long delay that has taken place in dealing with the matter?
I am not aware of any long delays, but I take this opportunity of saying that a great many inquiries are addressed to my Department of a character which I think could be dealt with easily in another way.
Boilermakers' Trade Dispute
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the shipbuilding employers have definitely refused to consider the proposals of the Boilermakers' Society for the resumption of work under the agreement on a time-work basis, and have also refused to consider the proposal to refer the dispute to arbitration; and will only meet the representatives of the men on the basis of acceptance of the agreement; that the Boilermakers' Society have replied pointing out that the limitation of the basis of conference to acceptance of the agreement makes such a conference unnecessary; and whether, in view of this deadlock, he proposes to take any action to bring the parties together; or institute an inquiry under the Industrial Courts Act?
I understand that the employers have intimated as recently as Thursday last that they are willing again to meet the boilermakers' representatives; and, assuming that the boiler-makers are willing to accept this invitation, clearly no action is necessary on my part to bring the parties together. The Court could only make inquiry into facts, and I do not understand that the facts in this case are in dispute.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the employers have refused to meet the representatives of the Boilermakers' Society except on one condition—that is the acceptance of the agreement—and that the representatives of the boilermakers have now indicated that they are unwilling to meet them if the basis of the conference is to be limited, and in view of the deadlock will not the right hon. Gentleman take some action?
I have made inquiry on that special point, and I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is not correctly informed, and that the employers are willing to meet the representatives of the boilermakers without the condition to which he refers.
Private Notice Questions
I wish to ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on the subject of private notice questions. This morning, as you will recollect, I sought permission to put a private notice question to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with reference to the reply which is to be made to the Russian Note. In view of the fact that the Note was received only yesterday, the question could hardly be put down on the Paper previously, and in view of the fact that the Note will probably be answered in the course of the next day or two, it may be anticipated that, if the question is put on the Paper now, it may possibly not be reached before the reply has been sent. You ruled, as I understood, that with regard to diplomatic questions of this kind longer notice was necessary. As I understand Standing Order No. 9, the whole question is whether the matter is urgent and of public importance. I submit that this matter is, and I respectfully ask your ruling as to whether it is in future to be the rule that diplomatic questions cannot be put by private notice?
The hon. and gallant Member appears to wish to take over my functions. He had better wait until this Chair is vacant.
Textile Factories (Fines and Deductions Abolition)
I beg to move, judgment of the cloth examiner, that cloth has not been made to the standard of perfection expected by the firm. In view of the fact that we have to battle with the possible faults of twenty-four pairs of hands, with the inferior material with which we have at times to deal, it is manifestly unfair that an employer should take a piece of cloth, and, having set a standard for himself of efficiency and perfection in that cloth, should, without the weaver being able to excuse himself or herself, or explain how the faults might have occurred, constitute himself jury and judge, and inflict these fines upon the weavers.
The trade is mainly divided into two sections, the spinning section and the manufacturing section. The spinning section, in spite of the delicacy of the work and the high standard of requirement by the employers, has been immune from any system of fines for a long number of years. The manufacturing section is again sub-divided into a number of sections. All the other sections on the manufacturing side and the spinning side have been immune from any system of fining for a long number of years, and we cannot understand why it is that the weaver, who is the last to handle the yarn and who has to cope with the inherent faults of the yarn and possibly with the faults of 24 pairs of hands, should still be subject to this system of fining. All the other sections who thoroughly understand the trade and the difficulties with which the weavers have to contend are unanimously in favour of the abolition of fines. Bills of this character have, I believe, been before the House on previous occasions and have on those occasions been introduced by Members of the other sections of the trade, and this is the first occasion upon which such a Bill has been introduced by a weaver. This question of fining has been the subject of interviews with various Home Secretaries. I have reports of interviews in 1909 and in 1914. Both the workpeople's representatives and the employers interviewed the Home Secretary in 1914, and, if I may, I shall quote a passage from the remarks made by the Home Secretary on that occasion. The Home Secretary at that time was Mr. McKenna, and I want to remind the House that this statement was made by him in the presence of the employers and at a stage of the proceedings when their evidence had been submitted to him and had, I suppose, been carefully considered by him. He said:
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Tout, Mr. Thomas Shaw, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Turner, Mr. Arthur Greenwood, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Irving, Mr. Snowden, Mr. Charles Buxton, and Mr. Clynes.
Textile Factories (Fines and Deductions Abolition) Bill,
"to abolish the system of fines and deductions in textile factories," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 161.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
Hoylake and West Kirby Gas and Water Bill, with Amendments.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A: Sir Rowland Blades, Major Sir George Hamilton, Mr. Lamb, Mr. Pennefather, Mr. Samuel Roberts, and Major - General Sir Frederick Sykes.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee A: Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee A (during the consideration of the Workmen's Compensation (No. 2) Bill): Mr. William Greenwood and Sir Beddoe Rees.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Workmen's Compensation (No. 2) Bill): Sir Allan Smith and Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A: Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. Groves, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Mr. Hill, Mr. Mardy Jones, Mr. McEntee, Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan, Mr. James Stewart, Mr. Sullivan, and Mr. Wheatley; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. William M. Adamson, Mr. Gavan Duffy, Mr. Harper Parker, Mr. Stairwell, Mr. Tom Smith, Mr. George Spencer, Mr. Westwood, Mr. Whiteley, Mr. David Williams, Mr. John Williams, and Mr. Stephen Walsh.
Standing Committee D
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Mr. Hall Caine, Mr. Darbishire, Mr. Hayes, Captain Sidney Herbert, Mr. Pretyman, and Captain Wallace; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Samuel Chapman, Mr. Ede, Mr. Harrison, Mr. William Hutchison, Mr. Privett, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill): Dr. Chapple.
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D (during the consideration of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill): Mr. Duncan Millar.
Standing Committee B
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Death of Her Royal Highness Princess Christian
I beg to move,
4.0 P.M.
Her energies and her activities were very varied and comprehensive, and it would be impossible on an occasion like this to dwell long upon them, but I may perhaps mention one or two which come quickly to one's mind. She was a kind and constant patron of Music and Art, and her name will ever be remembered as taking a leading part in the foundation of the Royal School of Art Needlework. But I think that the keynote of her character and her life was that of sympathy with human suffering. It was practical sympathy, not confined to mere expressions of sorrow but leading her to devote hours, days, weeks, months, and years of her long life to the practical solution of many of the difficulties from which this country has suffered. Her own holiday home for Crippled Boys at Englefield Green, her own Nursing Institute at Windsor, the Princess Christian Hospital train which went to France in 1915, her interest in Mission and Social Settlement work—all will come to our minds, and perhaps I may, as an Etonian, be allowed to pay my own personal recollections of the loyal and steady support which she gave to our School Mission in Hackney Wick.
But I suppose the greatest work she did and for which she will be best remembered, will be the work she did for nursing in this country, not only in providing nurses and improving their powers of work, improving their conditions of service, bringing them within the reach of the poorest people of this country, but in the encouragement which she gave at a time when people were not thinking so very much about nursing as they have been since the War and when it was much more uphill work than now to enlist the sympathy of the public for the great work of nursing. Few people perhaps realise the amount of pioneer work which, she did for the cause of nursing. Florence Nightingale planted, Princess Christian watered, and God has given an increase in a very wonderful way, for I think it is no exaggeration to say that the alleviation of the pain of thousands of sufferers in the War and in other ways has been very largely contributed to by the pioneer work which Princess Christian did in the quiet times which preceded the War. Countless numbers of her fellow-countrymen will mourn her death, but her work will live and will be carried out, we can assure ourselves, according to the great traditions of our Royal Family which she so splendidly upheld.
In the unavoidable absence of the Leader of the Opposition, I rise to express unreserved concurrence in what has just been said by the right hon. Gentleman. I say that both as regards the Throne and as regards the loss sustained by His Majesty the King in the death of so near and dear a relative. The sympathies of Princess Christian for the suffering were expressed in her sacrifices and in her services and sustained endeavours to alleviate those sufferings. She was devoted to humanitarian and to womanly duties, and never wearied in well-doing, and for one so elevated in station and social position she has left a memory of acts of benevolence and kindly social service. On that account, we associate ourselves with this Motion, which we are confident the House will unanimously pass.
May I be allowed to support what has been so well said by the right hon. Gentleman? I am sure that this House, without any dissentient voice or any reserve of feeling in any quarter, will desire to convey to His Majesty its sincere sympathy in the great bereavement that has befallen him and his family. We are always glad here to associate ourselves whole-heartedly both in the joys and in the sorrows of the King and his family. They have set in this country, as Princess Christian has set, a great example of that which is really essential to our whole social life—unity not only in affection and not only in affliction, but in social service. Princess Christian ennobled her station and endeared herself to the people by making it the main preoccupation of her life to minister to the poor and suffering. She set a great example, which we should all strive to follow, by making the most of such opportunities as came in her way, and I am certain that I am expressing the universal opinion of the House when I say that her name and her gracious discharge of the mission of social service will be held in grateful and affectionate remembrance by all the people of this country.
In order that there should be no doubt of the unanimity of this House with regard to this Motion, I rise without any previous preparation to add a few words. In the death of Her Royal Highness a great career of social service has ended. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has mentioned Her Royal Highness's interest in nursing, and well and rightly did he compare Her Royal Highness to her predecessor Florence Nightingale. Pascal has said that
"The heart has its reasons which reason does not know."
That was true of her Royal Highness. She went through life in a simple, sympathetic way, and everything that she did was guided by a masculine intelligence and a great desire to benefit the community as a whole. Her Royal Highness will be regretted in every quarter of this House, but nowhere more than in the homes of the poor of this country. She endeavoured throughout her long and beneficent career to alleviate their suffering, and because of that more than anything else she will always be remembered in this country with affection and esteem.
Question put, and agreed to, nemine contradicente.
Resolved,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty to express the deep concern of this House at the loss which His Majesty has sustained by the death of Her Royal Highness Princess Christian, and to condole with His Majesty on this melancholy occasion; and to assure His Majesty that this House will ever participate with the most affectionate and dutiful attachment in whatever may concern the feelings and interest of His Majesty."
Address to be presented by Privy Councillors or members of His Majesty's Household.
Finance Bill
Further considered in Committee. [ Progress, 11th June. ]
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 4 ( Repeal of duty on cider ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5.—(Reduction of duty on certain table waters.)
As from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, the Excise Duty now chargeable under Section four of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, at the rate of fourpence per gallon on certain table waters sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, shall be charged at the reduced rate of twopence per gallon.
The first Amendment on the Paper, standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) and other hon. Members—to leave out the words "as from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three"—is unnecessary in this place, as the same effect could be attained by an Amendment in the name of the same hon. Member lower on the Paper. With regard to the second Amendment on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for North-east Derbyshire (Mr. Lee)—after the words "twenty-three," to insert the words "until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three"—I would suggest, if it be convenient to the Committee, that the main discussion should take place on this Amendment, and not on the narrower question of date only. In so doing, I would not cut out hon. Members who may wish to take a Division on the duty ceasing as from 1st May, but we cannot have two discussions on the same point. If it be convenient to the Committee, I would allow a general discussion on the second Amendment on the Paper.
On a point of Order. Do I understand that your ruling means that we are to discuss the whole range of the Mineral Water Duties raised by these Amendments, and not merely the proposal on the Paper to abolish the duty in the case of sweetened mineral waters? I understand your ruling to be that we can discuss the subject as a whole?
I thought that the matter of controversy was mainly in regard to sweetened waters. It would, perhaps, be convenient not to limit the discussion to the sweetened waters, if that were regarded as a matter of general convenience, as beyond the sweetened waters that point will arise on the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Peto), to insert, after the word "Ireland," the words
"and the Excise Duty now chargeable under the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, at the rate of eightpence per gallon on plain spring water which is not either naturally or artificially aerated and which has not undergone any process of manufacture,"
but I would not rule that that would cut out references to unsweetened waters.
I beg to move, after the word "twenty-three," to insert the words "until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three."
When we last discussed this question, at an earlier stage, the hon. and gallant Gentleman who is now the Paymaster-General (Major Boyd-Carpenter), who was then in charge, gave us some reason to hope that probably our point of view would be considered, and perhaps accepted, by the Treasury. In the course of his remarks, he said:
It is fair to point out that sugar, which forms a very large part of the make-up of the sweetened waters, is taxed at a tremendous rate, so that we are doubly taxing this industry. At the same time, if the business is driven out of existence, as seems likely, we are cutting it off from another end, and we are not getting the same expenditure on sugar as formerly. There is also the question of essences, which have to be made soluble with the use of spirits, and they have to bear the spirit taxation, which is also very heavy. The ancillary trades, such as the glass bottle trade, box making, and engineering, have declined to a tremendous extent, and on the last occasion when the matter was discussed I put figures before the House and offered to give the names of firms which had employed large numbers of men, who have now fallen to five, six, and seven employés making the particular engines used in this trade. I know something about this particular business only so far that a large number of the persons who are engaged in it happen to live in my constituency. Curiously enough, it is the only industry there is in that constituency, with the result that we have whole streets of poor people who have been unemployed and on the unemployment dole for a very long time round the area where these particularly large firms operate, and steadily there has been a decline in the output from this trade, chiefly because the trade has been so burdened with taxation that the cost has had to be put up of that which used to form a large part of the luxury of the children in such a district, who can now no longer get a penny bottle of ginger beer, as it costs now 6d. or 8d.
The reduction already offered amounts simply to about one-sixteenth of a penny on the half-pint, so that it is going to afford nothing that they can pass on to the consumer, although the trade have expressed their willingness to try to do what they can in regard to this very infinitesimal reduction that has been offered to them. It also opens the way for a good deal of undercutting in their trade by such as the beverage powders, crystals, and soda water fountains. These things all escape taxation, because the Excise officials say it is almost impossible to calculate how they can levy taxation on them, so that this particular trade is very badly hit, and as the tax was imposed in the first instance as a War tax and has never yielded anything like the amount of revenue which it was supposed to do, but has, on the other hand, put enormous numbers of people out of work and caused a reduction in the consumption of sugar and essences, which are largely taxed, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman would be doing a good service to the trade and the country by consenting to the abolition of this tax. He would not lose very much on the revenue, and he would certainly more than recover it in other directions, and would set flowing a very considerable industry which now looks as if it will entirely disappear owing to the effect of the heavy burden of taxation imposed upon it.
I hope that some of us on this side who took part in this controversy on the last occasion may be permitted to add one or two words in support of the Amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon), in moving the Amendment, has drawn attention to the very serious condition of the mineral water trade in this country, but I venture to emphasise his figures, because they are very important indeed, bearing upon the proposals we now make. As the hon. Member pointed out, there are, in round figures, about £30,000,000 of capital sunk in this industry in Great Britain, the wages bill is between £7,000,000 and £8,000,000 per annum, and from the time of the imposition of the duty in 1917, which, after all, was a purely war-time device, this trade has steadily declined, and a very large number of people at the present day are unemployed. The aggregate output of sweetened mineral waters before the War was about 100,000,000 gallons, and with the exception of a certain improvement round about 1919, which was due to the artificial conditions of demobilisation and plenty of money characteristic of that year, the manufacture of this commodity has very largely declined, and in the present financial year it is estimated that not very much more than about 32,000,000 gallons will be manufactured. At the same time, it is perfectly true to say that only one-third of the plant is in use at the present time, and only two-thirds of the people who are normally employed in the industry are engaged in it.
From every point of view, it is a trade which has suffered very severely because of the imposition of what were originally war-time duties. As my hon. Friend has also pointed out, the trade is subject to peculiar disadvantages because of the taxation of the raw materials on which it depends. The sugar which is employed is taxed at the rate of 25s. 8d. per cwt., and there is also a very severe tax upon the spirit which is employed in order to render the essences soluble, a very important part of this trade. In the present Budget there is no remission or concession as regards the raw materials of the industry at all, and therefore it is perfectly plain that if anything is to be done for the restoration of the mineral water industry at the present time it can come only in the remission of the duty. Personally, I think that in order to give the trade a chance it would be necessary to abolish the Mineral Water Duties altogether, but I want to make it perfectly clear to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that in the light of the previous discussion we have had we confined our appeal, although we do not by any means abrogate the larger case we are making, to these sweetened waters, because from many points of view it is in the sphere of sweetened waters at present that the case is most urgent.
What is the position as regards the yield of the duty under the mineral waters tax? When this tax was introduced in 1917 it was estimated that it might yield a revenue of, approximately, £2,000,000 per annum. In point of fact, even at the high-water mark—if I may use that phrase in this connection—the revenue never came to anything like that amount. The revenue was about £1,500,000, and within recent years it has been steadily decreasing, at all events since 1919, until in the current financial year it is very doubtful whether very much more than £1,000,000—if that—will be realised. The question we have to ask ourselves this afternoon is whether it is worth while, in order to raise less than £1,000,000, to stand by and see the sacrifice of an important industry in this country, whose recovery can undoubtedly employ, or re-engage, a considerable number of people at the present day. I suggest on economic grounds, apart altogether from the narrow facts of taxation, that it would be a good investment to remove this duty at the present time, or, at all events, a good investment to remove it from sweetened waters.
Since that controversy took place in the House, there has been some difficulty on a point which has much exercised the minds of hon. Members, to which I must do my best to reply. Hon. Members have said, "If we give a concession in removing the duty on sweetened waters, it will, in practice, be probably the sacrifice of about £400,000, or less at the present day: If we make that sacrifice we must be absolutely sure that the benefit is going to flow to the consumers of this commodity." Unless we can prove to the satisfaction of the House that the benefit will so enure, there is no case at all for the remission of the Mineral Waters Duty. Let me try to make the point perfectly plain. The industry is anxious to pass on the benefit of the concession to the consumer, because the whole case of this industry rests upon the lower price of the commodity. In particular, through their documents, they have said: "Unless we can sell this article at a lower price to the consumer, there is no hope of reviving our trade. We must get the price down, and in our judgment the price depends to-day, in the main, upon the imposition of this tax."
Let me say on that point that already the trade has made very heavy sacrifices in profits. It has also made very heavy sacrifices in wages. It has reduced the overhead and other costs to the lowest possible point. We are now reduced to the position of fixing upon this tax as the only hope of effective recovery, and the suggestion of the Government in their proposal on the present Finance Bill. They have recognised that the trade is in a very difficult position, and they have not been able to abolish the whole 4d. duty on sweetened waters, but the suggestion was put forward that the duty should be abolished to the extent of 2d., and they apparently took the view that that would contribute to recovery at the present time. The outstanding difficulty of that concession is this: that it is practically physically impossible to pass it on to the consumer in any shape or form. We have only to take the conditions under which this commodity is sold to see that there is no unit small enough to give that concession to the consumer. On a five-ounce bottle it is one-sixteenth of a penny. We would require to get up to the 20-oz. bottle, which is a very large size, before you have a sum, namely, four-sixteenths of a penny, or ¼d., which is possible, or capable, of allocation by way of a reduction in the price. That is the outstanding difficulty in connection with the concession. Let me make it perfectly plain those concerned are not desirous of putting anything in any shape or form into their own pockets, as some people here suggested. Their whole case rests upon the lower price. They come to the House of Commons, and to the Government, asking for fair play and asking for at least the abolition of the duty on sweetened waters in order that they may get a reduction to the extent of ¼d., which will enable them to pass on the advantage to the consumers of this article.
I am perfectly sure that this is a case which will appeal as eminently fair to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. It did on the last occasion when we debated this matter on very much the same lines on which I have tried to debate it now. The then Financial Secretary asked me to withdraw the Amendment, and he quite clearly indicated that the Government recognised that there was a case for consideration. Everyone who was present in the House understood, I think, when the Amendment was withdrawn, that at least the duty on sweetened waters would be reconsidered. I trust there is no hesitation on that point this afternoon. Let me conclude by saying that I believe in the interests of this industry the whole duty should be abolished, because it is a very small amount, and the industry is heavily burdened by it. In any case, excluding the larger possibility, we are entitled I think to the abolition of the duty on sweetened waters, and I earnestly hope that the Government will meet our case.
I am sure the trade are to be congratulated upon their representative in the House, this afternoon, though it is somewhat unusual to find a champion in that quarter. I would remind the House that when a discussion on this matter last took place the Financial Secretary undertook to consider the question put by my hon. Friend opposite. On behalf of the trade we are told this afternoon that there is going to be, following this remission of taxation, no reduction to the consumers of this country. The hon. Gentleman has told us——
My hon. Friend somewhat misunderstands. I speak not as the representative of the trade, but only as an outsider. I must in justice make that point perfectly clear, and also say that they will do their very best to pass on any concession, and they have so indicated the Treasury, but it is physically impossible to do it, as I have shown, beyond a certain point.
That does not help the consumer. If what the hon. Gentleman has said means that there is no means by which this very large sum of money, £400,000, is going to be disposed of for the benefit of the consumer, where is it going to disappear to? What is going to become of it? Who is going to put it in their pocket? If the consumer does not get this money I should like to know who is going to get it? I am going to support the Government in this matter, if I do not hear of a much better arrangement than has been so far expressed on behalf of the trade that they are going to do the best to pass it on to the consumer! They have, it would appear, already come to the conclusion, and they are practical people and no doubt understand their business, that they cannot do it. I think that is as unsatisfactory a condition of affairs as can be. An arrangement in this matter should be made by the Government as with the brewers. A bargain should be made that the Consumers shall benefit. I do not think the present Financial Secretary—whom I welcome to his new position—will make a good bargain unless he follows out some suggestion of that sort on behalf of the consumers of the country. I do not feel at all satisfied with the statement made this afternoon by the hon. Gentleman opposite. It was represented on the last occasion when we debated this matter that conferences were to take place between the Government and this particular trade. I was also given to understand that there are certain difficulties because the trade was not represented in one organisation but had two organisations. What has happened since then? Have conferences taken place? If so, what arrangement is going to be made, or is the matter simply to be left in the nebulous uncertain state which has been indicated this afternoon, and is this large sum of £400,000 going to vanish? If so, where is it going to? I should like to ask the Financial Secretary exactly what arrangement is being made, and is he himself personally satisfied that the consumers of this country, and the taxpayers, will have a benefit, and that this money will apparently not disappear into mid-air, as has been suggested by the hon. Gentlemen opposite.
I am not quite satisfied in this matter. The remission suggested in the first instance was made from the point of view of the Government, not on account of some of the considerations suggested, but as an act of justice. To explain really what I mean by that, I am afraid I must trouble the Committee, and ask hon. Members to realise the position of this tax. In 1916 there was put on, as the hon. Gentleman opposite said, a tax of 4d. a gallon on sweetened waters and 8d. per gallon on unsweetened waters. The reason for that was that in the case of the sweetened waters, ginger beer and lemonade—[an HON. MEMBER: "Ginger pop!"]—yes, and ginger pop, seeing I am an ardent consumer of some of them myself, perhaps I am more at home in dealing with this tax than with the Beer Duty.
The real difficulty in this tax in regard to the Sweetened Waters Tax was the amount of sugar contained in them. Unsweetened water does not contain any sugar at all. It is now found that the amount of Sugar and Spirit Duty in sweetened waters has increased by about 2d. per gallon. We came to the conclusion we did in order to make the tax fair; it was purely a question of financial fairness on which the Government came to the conclusion they did. Then I am bound to say I am a little disappointed, as indeed was my predecessor, that the concession was not received more graciously than it was, and I must confess, too, that I think the statement made in regard to the pledge by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsider this duty was going a little beyond what actually took place on the Report stage. I do not suggest that either of the hon. Gentlemen who moved and seconded the Amendment in the least purposely misrepresented the statement of my hon. Friend, now the Paymaster-General, but I should like to call their attention to the following. My hon. Friend said: quite distinctly, and they are not able to advise the Committee to consent to a further remission of this duty, a duty which brings in a certain amount of money. The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh has represented the position quite clearly, and says that the trade is hampered and cannot make headway because of this duty. Let me call his attention to one fact, that this really is in the nature of a luxury trade. A luxury, if you like, for the poorer classes of the people who do not take beer, spirits or champagne—but when trade was good two years ago, they could sell double the quantity of sweetened waters that they can sell to-day, in spite of the fact that the tax was on. That is almost conclusive. It shows to my mind conclusively that the mineral water trade is not in difficulties because of the tax, but is in difficulties because of the slackness of trade. In 1918–19 there were nearly 65,000,000 gallons sold, and last year the total had fallen to just under 30,000,000 gallons. The tax was the same in both cases, though the cost of production was different.
The enormous fall in the sale of these sweetened waters had nothing to do with the tax. Wages of working men are lower to-day than they were in 1918–19. The working man to-day has less money for himself and his children to spend in the purchase of ginger beer and lemonade. But it is not the constant tax which has caused the fall in consumption; it is the lessened purchasing power of the people. I want to ask a question. Having regard to the fact that the consumption of these waters has fallen in four years from 65,000,000 to under 30,000,000 gallons, and that the price to the consumer, about 3d. per bottle, has remained at that figure, is it likely that a reduction of the tax by ¼d. per bottle will make any difference in the sale of these mineral waters? I do not think it will. I am treating it as a business matter. I agree that the whole tax may be ½d. per bottle. Having regard to the fact that the price has remained about 3d., and that consumption has fallen, is it likely that a reduction of the price by ½d. will bring back any appreciable sale? The manufacturers have to deal with the matter themselves; they have to set their own house in order. It may be that they will have to wait for a general revival of trade throughout the country. We know that, whether it be beer or spirits, or sweetened table waters, the sale goes up and down with the prosperity of the country. Everyone knows that when trade revives the sale of beer will increase, and equally so the sale of mineral waters, for people have then more money to give their children.
Is it not the case that the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated a considerable increase in the consumption of beer as a result of a reduced price and reduced taxation?
The consumption of beer was estimated to rise 10 per cent. only, on the reduction of taxation made last night. Ten per cent. here would be about 3,000,000 gallons. I agree that the reduction of the tax might possibly bring about a 10 per cent. increase in consumption, that is to say, an increase from 30,000,000 to 33,000,000 gallons. That will bring the trade no good. The trade wants to get back to a consumption of 65,000,000 gallons, which was profitable. An increase of 10 per cent. would not satisfy the trade. We must wait until trade revives and money is in the hands of the people for the purchase of ginger beer.
If you cheapen an article the consumption of it is increased?
I am assuming that the increase in consumption is at the same rate as in the case of beer, namely, 10 per cent. I do not think it will be suggested that a reduction of the tax on sweetened waters would increase consumption more than would be the case with beer. It is only 3,000,000 gallons in all. I cannot see that we are bound, or that it would be right, to deal with this question of taxation merely from the point of view of reviving the trade. The trade has my sympathy. But taxes are not put on to make trade go up or down; they are put on in the general interests of the country. I remember quite well that when these duties were put on there were constant complaints that the teetotaller did not pay his share of taxation. I remember, as a temperance advocate and a personal teetotaller of very long standing, making my submission that I was willing, from my own point of view and, I believe, from the point of view of the temperance party, to pay a reasonable share of the taxation of the country. It is said over and over again that unless you put a tax on the man who does not drink intoxicants or smoke tobacco, the miserable teetotaller does not pay his share of taxation.
He is not miserable.
If the Noble Lady had listened to me she would have noticed that I did not say that she or I were miserable. I said they were called miserable teetotallers. An argument that is used against us is that we do not pay our fair share of taxation.
We do.
With taxes on beer, taxes on spirits and taxes on wine, it is only fair that the teetotaller should pay his share, though it may be small. I cannot accede to the request to withdraw the duty altogether. I am prepared, naturally, to let the concession remain, as given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer a fortnight ago, but with this proviso: The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) asks whether this remission of tax is to find its way to the consumer. I am bound to say that at present I do not find that to be the case. I believe that in Manchester there is a reduction; the dealers there have made a reduction of ¼d. per bottle. There was a suggestion that this concession should be withdrawn unless it was made quite clear that the reduction would be passed on to the consumer. I am not prepared to withdraw the concession to-day, because it was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the trade is reckoning upon it, but I desire to say that if the trade does not pass this remission in some way or other on to the consumer the Government will reserve the right to reconsider the whole question in the Budget of next year.
I want to support the proposal for the abolition of this duty. The consumer has no chance of a reduction in the price of his ginger beer unless the tax is abolished completely, for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury states clearly that it can be a difference of only ¼d. per bottle. People do not sell ginger beer and "pop," hop ale, burdock and horehound and things of that sort at a price with a farthing calculated in it. The price is fixed with ½d. or 1d. as the unit of calculation. People who drink sweetened table waters are to get no advantage from this proposal of the Government. I am less concerned with the trade than with the people who buy the commodity. This is a commodity consumed by the children of the country. At school treats what did we do? It was 1d. for our bottle of ginger beer, ½d. for our bottle of burdock beer, and 1d. for our bottle of horehound. Now the prices are 3d. and 3½d. The trade has exploited the children during the past three or four years. The farthing that the Government are giving to the trade cannot possibly get to the consumer. I want the consumer to have the benefit of the reduction in taxation. We are told that the amount raised by this tax on sweetened table waters is very small indeed. I appeal to the Government to remember that these are the children's drinks. It may be the workpeople's champagne, and the only kind that they ever get, but it is mainly the children's drink.
I do not think that the Committee will regard with any satisfaction the statement of the Financial Secretary. What, in fact, has he said? He said that there was no intention on the part of the Government, either in connection with this remission of taxation or any remission of taxation, that it should be a method of coming to the assistance of a struggling trade. I would not like hon. Members opposite to think for a moment that I lack sympathy with the difficulties of the trade now. But this is not a proper method of dealing with them. The Financial Secretary has made that statement, and he has made a second statement, which is certainly very extraordinary—that he is not satisfied by any means that this remission of taxation will reach the consumer. I am not surprised that he made that statement, because he would be a very bold and optimistic man if he thought for a moment, after the statements made in the House this afternoon, that there would be any benefit to the consumers as a result of this remission of taxation. The right hon. Gentleman started with the statement that there was no intention on the part of the Government to go to the assistance of the trade by way of a remission of taxation, and that he is not satisfied that the consumers will get any benefit from this £400,000, and finally he said that unless something was done by the trade during the next 12 months something dreadful would happen at the end of that period with regard to the remission of taxation already made. That is not business; that is not the way of dealing with this trade.
5.0 P.M.
Unless the trade can make a definite bargain, as the brewers have done, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Government has no alternative but to drop this remission of taxation altogether. It is a very unfair thing to the struggling taxpayers of the country. It establishes a precedent. I hope that the Financial Secretary will take other steps to put this matter right. We are told that, as I suspected, a section of the trade in Manchester intends to make a remission of taxation. Thas is an extraordinary statement to make. It means that the other sections of the trade are deliberately declining to do what is fair and are treating their own fellow traders very badly indeed. What encouragement is there for honest and decent people to make a remission of price if the rest of the trade are to put this money into their pockets. The House of Commons ought to think a good many times before it lends itself to a method of business of this character, and I hope my right hon. Friend will take some steps during the next few days to see whether something cannot be done, because I feel it is the belief of all sections of the House that the House of Commons has not been treated properly in this matter, and that the trade is not doing its duty.
This Debate shows quite clearly the difference between the spoken word and the written word. I was in the House when the late Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave the hint to us not to intervene in the Debate. At that time I had all the facts about herb beer and sarsaparilla in my pocket, and I was prepared to put the case forward. I read his speech very carefully in the morning, and I found, to my surprise and astonishment, that it contained no promise whatever. I had no doubt a promise was implied that this tax was going to be taken off. It is a tax on the children of the poor who drink ginger beer, herb beer and sarsaparilla. They are not the drinks of the rich man, and, if they were, they would not feel a paltry tax of this sort. But a paltry tax to rich people is a heavy tax to poor people. This tax has been admitted to be a failure in the production of revenue. When taxation on certain wines was found to restrict the consumption of those wines, this House immediately altered the system of taxation. That is a point the Financial Secretary might take into consideration.
The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) laid down the principle that a trade should come to this House and strike a bargain. I have never heard a more futile thing in my life. I was surprised to hear the statement in this House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been making terms with the brewers. After all, we have Treasury officials, and men experienced in taxation, and it is for them to advise Ministers in this House, and not for Ministers to strike bargains. He says that this money should be passed on to the consumer. I ask him, as any sensible man would ask him, how does he propose that 2d. a gallon, when split into glasses, can be passed on to anyone? As a matter of fact, this 2d. a gallon, as admitted by the present Financial Secretary to Treasury, is due to the trade on account of sugar. Furthermore, it is admitted that this sweetened water is already taxed very heavily. The Financial Secretary says, as a teetotaller, he is prepared to pay a tax. He pays the tax when he pays it on sugar. We in this House have asked for the sugar tax to be remitted, so that these productions could be cheaper to the working classes. We are told that the tax can then be passed on to the American financiers. On several grounds, I say this tax should be remitted the full 4d., and I was hoping that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would tell us that the 2d. was coming off herbal drinks. I see the hon. Member for West Woolwich laughs.
I have not the least objection to 2d. coming oft herbal drinks if the consumer gets it.
I had a conversation with the President of the Liverpool Botanic Brewers' Association, who is a Conservative, and did his best to keep me from coming here. He assured me that if I did my best to take off 2d. on herbal drinks and sarsaparilla, and 4d. off sweetened drinks, it would all be passed on to the consumer, and, although he is a Conservative, I took his word for it. Another thing I would like to point out is that the trade in our district is entirely different from the trade which has been mentioned by my hon. Friend. The trade in our district is done by what are called herbalists, and what are called soda fountains. The essence is mixed with aerated water and sold over the counter. After these taxes have been on for many years the Excise man is busy going round these small shops and asking the struggling hopkeepers to fix meters upon their soda water fountain. He gives them a list of six firms to whom to write to get a meter fixed which is going to cost something like six guineas. They asked these six firms, five of which were honest enough to say immediately they could not make a meter. The sixth firm is experimenting, and, I believe, has very nearly solved the problem. That is the way the Government do business. And what is the tax they get? I went round several shops in my own constituency, and found that the tax comes to about 2s. 6d. a month. Does it pay the Government to send an Exciseman round these 2½d. coffee shops to get 2s. 6d.? All these taxes are absurd, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman once more to reconsider the decision, to take off the 2d., and then the remission can be passed on to the taxpayer.
I think a sound principle of taxation is, that when you remit taxation on an article in common use, some benefit, at any rate, from that remission should go to the consumer. In the case of beer, when a portion of the taxation was remitted, the Government very properly took steps to ensure that the consumer should reap a substantial benefit from that remission in the shape of a reduction of 1d. a pint. Why was not a similar practice followed in the case of the remission of taxation upon ginger beer and lemonade? I have a considerable sympathy with the consumers of ginger beer and lemonade. A great many people use them as their sole drink, in addition to water, and, therefore, I think they should be considered. The Government evidently think this is a matter which is worth considering from the consumers' point of view, because they say that unless the price falls to the consumer during the next year, they will take steps to see that it is done. Why should it not be done this year? The hon. Gentleman who spoke from the opposite benches seems to think that it is impossible for manufacturers of these drinks to allow any benefit to go to the consumer. But surely that is not so. My right hon. Friend on the Treasury Bench referred to a firm of manufacturers in Manchester who have already pledged themselves to give a certain benefit in the shape of reduction to the consumer. Why should not other manufacturers do the same? If some manufacturers can do it, why not others?
May I make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend, who, I know, is desirous of doing justice to the consumer, as well as every other class in this matter? Can he not tell the trade that, unless they can see their way, before this Bill goes through the House finally, to make some promise, such as the brewers made in the case of beer, that they will reduce the price of sweetened mineral waters to the consumer, the reduction of taxation will be withdrawn? Surely if the definite proposition were put to them, "Aye or No, would you sooner have a reduction of taxation accompanied by a reduction of cost to the consumer," they probably would say, "Give us the reduction of taxation, and we will see that the consumer gets the benefit." Therefore, I do beg my right hon. Friend, before we finally leave this question—I agree it cannot be done to-day, but, say, before the Report stage—to go to the trade, and ask for this benefit for the consumer, and if they say they cannot make it, then let us drop the reduction.
The right hon. Gentleman has already indicated, I think, that for the next few days his policy will be a negative one, and he gives no sign of any willingness on the part of the Government to make any concession to this side of the House, or in any way to meet us by compromise. I welcomed his statement respecting the position of the consumer, and his anxiety relative to the consumers securing the benefit from the remission of taxation. I think there is every justification for the Committee to expect that when a remission of this kind takes place the consumer shall in some way benefit. But while I and others are anxious to safeguard the interests of the consumer, I am equally anxious to see that the wages that are paid in this industry have some relation to the cost of the article to the consumer, and, judging from the statement of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), the industry is in a very bad way. It has been heavily hit in consequence of taxation such as we are discussing, and also by the duties upon sugar and raw materials that are used in the industry. We have heard that unemployment is excessive. I think we were told that only one-third of the machinery of this industry was now being employed, and I cannot follow the right hon. Gentleman when he says that the remission, or the abolition, of the duty itself would not lead to an encouragement of trade. If we could cheapen the article to the consumer, I think there would be a corresponding improvement in the prosperity of the industry. Therefore, I should have liked the right hon. Gentleman to have offered some concession to the Committee at this stage. I understand that the duties upon this industry bring in something less than £1,000,000—a very small amount, indeed, in proportion to the Budget Estimate, and I think it is an amount that we might very well afford to pass by, and put the burden upon some other industry, or some article if need be. I regret exceedingly the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to meet the case put forward.
I apologise for not being in the House when the Financial Secretary was making his case. When the proposed reduction was announced it was alleged that the amount would not make much difference, and I made it my business to inquire what would be the result. Those whom I consulted were good enough to furnish lists showing the reductions that would immediately be made, and the further reductions which would be made if the duty were abolished altogether. I am sorry that the opportunity has not been taken to abolish this quite small and pettifogging duty altogether. I want to reinforce the arguments about the absurd systems of applying meters to every small soda fountain up and down the country. It is grossly unfair that the man liable to pay the tax should have to provide the instrument to record the tax. It has not been made clear in some parts of the country that this duty would not alter the price of the commodity, and I think my right hon. Friend is quite justified in refusing to give way further in the matter of reduction. I hope the publicity which has been drawn to this question will induce public opinion and trade opinion to review the matter, and enable my right hon. Friend to reconsider this question on Report. After all, the volume of money involved is not large, and the cost of collection is quite out of proportion to the yield. The traders concerned have to meet the present high cost of sugar, and the consumers contribute largely owing to the high prices charged for sugar commodities. I think the House would be well advised to allow the figure to remain as it is at this stage, and I hope that that opinion will so change before the Report stage that my right hon. Friend will be able to make further reductions.
I accept the suggestion which has been made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Butcher). I cannot withdraw what has been put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor can I see my way to make any further concession, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already considered this matter, and therefore I am bound to be negative once more. I do not like being negative, but I must carry out the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which are, after full consideration, to the effect that it is desirable that some tax should remain on this particular mineral water. The suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for York, that I should reconsider the possibility of coming to some arrangement with the trade in order to pass this remission on to the consumer, is one that I willingly adopt. I will undertake tomorrow morning to get into communication with the leading trade associations, and try to find if some arrangement can be made for passing it on.
I hope the Financial Secretary will not listen to this suggestion. Far from supporting the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) that this concession should be withdrawn, I wish to press the right hon. Gentleman to do away with the tax alto- gether. This industry is already heavily handicapped with the Sugar Tax, and if the mineral water trade was as well organised as the beer industry, instead of being as it is, a lot of isolated factories, the concession I am asking for would have been made. This industry has been subject to all sorts of burdens during the last few years, and that is why it is now in such a bad financial position. The cost of bottles and sugar has increased, and above all the rents of the small shops connected with the distribution of this article have not been subject to the Rent Restrictions Act, and there has been an enormous increase of rent which is a very considerable burden.
This concession has not been made in a practical form, but it has been made in such a way that it is impossible for the consumer to get the advantage. Fourpence a gallon would mean a concession of a halfpenny per pint. Twopence per gallon works out at a farthing on a pint, but the ordinary bottle of mineral water contains considerably less than that quantity. If the Financial Secretary is going to reconsider this question, then he should consider it from all points of view, because a very strong case has been made out for the abolition of this duty, which is both irritating and vexatious, and a serious burden on the working classes and the children of the poor.
I regret that the Financial Secretary has not seen his way to abolish this tax. It is a tax on an exclusively British industry which is suffering severely, and if abolished, that industry might recover to a great extent. The Government have agreed to a reduction of 1d. per pint on beer, whereas by this concession they concede only about, a quarter or a half of a farthing per bottle, which is difficult to pass on to the consumer. To my mind, the main bargain which the Government have to drive is not with the manufacturer but with the retailer. The manufacturer supplies these large bottles at 2s. or 3s. per dozen, but they are sold by the retailers at prices ranging from 4d. to 1s. 3d. each, and therefore it is with the retail trade that we have to try and get the price down. I have also been impressed by the fact that there is considerable evasion of the tax, and those who evade the tax have an enormous advantage. Since this tax was imposed the duty on sugar has been nearly doubled, and sugar is a most important ingredient in the manufacture of mineral waters. I still hope that my right hon. Friend, within the next 10 days, before we get to the Report stage, will consider whether he cannot drive a much better bargain with the manufacturers and the retailers by which the consumers can benefit to a much greater extent by getting rid of the tax altogether. I am in favour of getting rid of the tax, and if my hon. Friend opposite goes to a Division, I shall support his Amendment.
I do not want to repeat arguments which have already been put forward, but I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will make his statement a little more clear, because there seems to be some ambiguity about it. Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to increase this remission provided means can be found by which it can be passed on to the consumer? If no such means can be found, is he going to take into consideration the question of withdrawing the concession altogether? Again I ask, if means can be devised by which any remission of taxation will go for the benefit of the consumer, will he consider the advisability of abolishing the tax altogether?
That is a very fair question. I could not now either withdraw the concession which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer or increase it, because those are questions which my right hon. Friend has considered in the course of the Debate. I will try and formulate the pledge of my own, and I will go a little further than I went just now. I will promise to consider during the next 10 days the whole position of this tax, although I do not make any pledge whatever. I am to be perfectly free, and if on consideration I come to the conclusion that a remission of taxation can be made and passed on to the consumer I shall not be in any way obligated to make any further concession. If I find the concession cannot be passed on to the consumer, I shall then be bound to come to this House and say either that I withdraw the concession or I accept it. I am not to be bound in any way.
Under these circumstances we will not press the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
I understand that an arrangement was made to have a full discussion on this subject which has taken place on the Amendment which has just been disposed of. Of course, subsequent Amendments can be divided upon without discussion.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert a new Subsection:—
"(2) As from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, the definition of table waters in Section four of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, shall be amended so as to exclude from table waters chargeable with duties of Excise plain spring water which is not either naturally or artificially aerated and which has not undergone any process of manufacture."
This Clause reduces the tax on certain table waters from 4d. per gallon to 2d. per gallon. It came as a surprise to me to find that we are actually taxing under the Finance Act, 1916, plain spring water at 8d. a gallon. I would remind the Committee that in the Finance Bill we are abolishing the tax upon cider of precisely the same amount. If this Amendment be not accepted, we arrive at the somewhat illogical conclusion that we decide to have no tax whatever on cider, but if anyone wishes to drink plain spring water and finds himself in a locality where the ordinary water obtainable is under suspicion or may carry a percentage of lime they must pay not only the cost of getting clean water to drink, but they have also to pay 8d. per gallon to the Treasury for that privilege. In the Finance Act of 1916 herb beer was taxed heavily, and so strong a case was made against the burden of that tax on what was purely a medicinal drink that the tax was reduced to 2d. per gallon. Nevertheless plain spring water is left with a tax of 8d. per gallon. It may be reasonable to put a tax on such an undoubted luxury as Perrier Water because that water has either by nature or artificially a considerable amount of aeration in it. Yet it is said to be and is believed by many to be a pure water just as it comes from the earth. I have expressly exempted such a thing, and I fancy I have assisted the Treasury to accept my Amendment by putting in words providing that it must be
"plain spring water which is not either naturally or artificially aerated, and which has not undergone any process of manufacture."
May I make a point put to me by the owner of a spring of pure water, not so well known as Malvern, but in which, previous to the imposition of this duty, considerable business was done in the direction of suppying the water to people who want pine spring water to drink. Before the duty was put on—and I must say in justice to the Customs authorities, also before the heavy rise in railway rates—a considerable business was done in this plain spring water. But since the duty has been on the amount of business has been reduced to one-fourth. It is very regrettable that people should have to be charged very high prices for a gift of nature of this kind. I have been under suspicion of being an advocate, not of temperance drinks, in connection with a Bill which has been before a Committee of this House. I can only say I do not approve of this duty, and I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury not only to consider my Amendment, but to accept it.
Inasmuch as the acceptance of this proposal would only mean a loss of revenue almost infinitesimal, and as I have offered to consider the position of certain similar duties, I will promise, if my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment, that it shall have favourable consideration before the Report stage, and, indeed, I hope it will be possible to make the concessions for which he has asked.
On that assurance, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6.—(Continuation of Customs Duties Imposed under 5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 89.)
The new import duties and the additional Customs duties on dried fruits imposed by Part I of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to Imperial preferential rates), continue to be charged, levied and paid, in the case of the new import duties, until the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, and in the case of the duties on dried fruits, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-four.
With regard to the Amendments to this Clause, it appears to me it would be for the general convenience of the Committee if we had a full discussion regarding these duties on one Amendment, and no discussion on subsequent Amendments dealing with the same subject.
I beg to move to leave out the words "The new import duties and."
I desire to explain that the proposal I advocate involves the abandonment of the motor import duties. As I understand it, these duties were first imposed in order to prevent in some measure the importation of what were then described, and rightly so, as luxury articles. But whatever force there was in that contention in the days of the War, has now entirely disappeared, and that this is recognised even by the Government itself is conclusively proved by reference to the Budget speech, when the Prime Minister, in his capacity as Chancellor of the Exchequer, in replying to the discussion on the duties, stated that there were no new reasons why these duties should be maintained. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his adaptability. So, too, do I congratulate the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. We have had substantial evidence of that in his case this afternoon, but I am bound to withdraw my admiration as regards their economics as applied to questions of this kind. I think we are entitled to ascertain from the Financial Secretary the real reasons, why these duties are to be continued. I would like to ask him first whether these duties are to be maintained as a concession to his Protectionist Friends on the benches opposite. I ask that question advisedly, because in a previous Debate on this subject the hon. Member for Coventry (Sir E. Manville) argued quite eloquently in support of these duties on the ground, as he said, that the motor car industry and its ancillary industries could only be rehabilitated if these duties were continued.
If the proposal is a purely Protectionist one, if the duties are to be maintained in order to prevent the importation of motor cars and motor car accessories, then we are entitled to ask whether the Government propose to apply this Protectionist principle to other industries. It may be urged that so far as the duties are concerned in respect of the imposition on motor cars, they only apply to what are called luxury cars—to private cars, and not to industrial or commercial vehicles. If the argument is a luxury argument, then equally we are entitled to ask for the imposition of a duty on laces and silks, and similar articles, which can only be regarded as luxury articles. This afternoon we have had a whole-hearted manifestation, not confined to any particular portion of the House, with regard to the desire—I will not say desirability—of imposing some form of tariff on laces, and one hon. Member mentioned certain articles and maintained that the duty was necessary in order to rebuild what he described as a shattered industry. With regard to the Protectionist argument, I am fortified by the statement which the right hon. Gentleman made, and particularly by his past political history, for I understand him to be one of the bulwarks of the Tariff Reform party in this country. Certainly he gained a not unworthy reputation in the days of the Tariff Reform controversy. I will not make any reference to the speeches he delivered in those days, but I will recall something he said earlier to-day to the effect that "taxes are not put on in order to make trade go up or down." Then he went on——
I said that taxes are not taken off for that purpose. I assume the hon. Member is referring to a remark I made half an hour ago.
Yes. I quite accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement, but I am sure it is in the recollection of the Committee that the words I used are admittedly the converse of what he said. If taxes are not taken off in order to make trade go up or down, why did the right hon. Gentleman say that it was in the interests of the community that these taxes should be either taken off or withdrawn? If that is his argument, why are these duties being maintained from a purely Protectionist standpoint? Is there any intention on the part of the Financial Secretary, and is he supported by his colleagues on the Treasury Bench, as well as by those who are absent at this moment, in what he said? The hon. Member for Coventry desires the retention of the duties in order to rebuild the motor-car industry. I want to know if this is a Protectionist duty, and I want to put it as plainly as I can, without any unnecessary language, because we are entitled seven years after the imposition of these war duties to know if they are to be maintained on really substantial arguable grounds.
May I remind the Committee that the author of these duties is shortly to be welcomed into the loving arms of the Treasury Bench and its associates? I wonder whether the author, when he returns to this House, will be prepared to endorse the action of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, having regard to the fact that he himself made it perfectly clear and beyond any dubiety that the duties were only war-time duties and were imposed in order to prohibit the importation of what were described as luxury articles.
I turn from what may be called the Protectionist argument to the revenue argument. As I understood the Prime Minister when he dealt with this subject some weeks ago in the Budget Debate, he said that although the yield of the duty was small—and I believe it is true that it is almost negligible, and really of no value at all to the Treasury—yet at the same time he could not very well do without it. What is it, really, that the Government are after? Is it revenue? If it is, then it is not likely to accrue, having regard to the stagnation in the imports of the articles on which the duties are imposed. On that point there is abundant evidence to fortify me in my contention. I find, for example, by reference to the Board of Trade statistics, that in 1913, prior to the imposition of these duties, and prior to the War itself, the total value of the commodities which are now subject to the McKenna duties amounted to £2,600,000 odd. In 1922 the value of the import of similar articles amounted to £2,800,000. There was, as I am reminded, a difference in the value of money, and it will be seen from these figures that the imposition of these duties has made no impression whatever so far as the importation of these commodities is concerned. Therefore, on the ground of the prohibition, or even partial prohibition, of what, in the opinion of hon. Members associated with the motor-car industry, are objectionable commodities, there is no case whatever, while from the point of revenue there is no argument either. Further, in the long run, if there is an imposition of a duty of any kind, it is the consumer who is bound to pay. I will take what is, perhaps, the most simple illustration I can find for my purpose, namely, the imposition of a duty on cinema films. There you have a simple case, on which one can found quite a substantial argument. Obviously, if the cinema people in this country have to pay what they describe as an excessive duty on the import of cinema films, that duty is not likely to be paid either by themselves or by those who are responsible for the importation. It is paid, undoubtedly, by those, chiefly of the poorer classes in the community who, whether rightly or wrongly, for purposes best known to themselves, patronise cinema theatres, and there you see at once that naturally, and, indeed, inevitably, the imposition of a duty bears hardly upon the community itself.
I would submit to the Financial Secretary that he should accept the advice which was, perhaps unconsciously, given to him this afternoon by the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher). The hon. and learned Member, perhaps in an unguarded and thoughtless moment, said that if there is to be a remission—he was referring, I know, to a proposed remission in other duties—it should go to the consumer, and I gather from that that there is always an arguable case for a remission if the consumer is to benefit. There can be no question that the consumer in this country, whether he be the poor, struggling country doctor who uses an imported foreign car, or the farmer—in regard to whom the Government have expressed contrition recently, and whom they are so anxious to assist—who more and more cares to use motor vehicles, and particularly the Ford cars which are so cheap and so accessible——
And nasty.
I am prepared to leave that to the judgment of the users, but I was not aware, though I am open to correction, that the hon. Member who has interrupted unnecessarily has any special knowledge of the motor-car industry, whatever he may have of the cotton industry and of the finance associated with the cotton industry. At all events, I would submit that the consumer would benefit by the withdrawal of these duties—the struggling doctor or farmer who uses a motor vehicle, or the working-class person who, perhaps, desires to have a musical instrument in his home. Although I cannot speak with any knowledge as regard the musical perception of the Financial Secretary, I do know that the Prime Minister has a love of art, and, presumably, of music, and he would not desire to withhold from the poorest sections of the community that unbounded joy which can be derived from the possession of even the most humble musical instrument in the home; and so on it can be proven conclusively that the consumer would benefit at every turn. I submit to the Committee, therefore, that, on the ground of Protection and the Protectionist arguments which have been submitted, on the ground of revenue, which has been proved to be negligible and of no value at all to the Treasury, and in the interests of the general community, these taxes ought to be immediately withdrawn.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has spoken for a long time about the wickedness of these taxes, but he has quite overlooked the very many advantages which have been secured to the people of this country through their imposition. Not only have they secured a very considerable revenue—I think a matter of several million pounds; I have not the exact figures at the moment—but there are many other advantages. The hon. Member spoke about the Ford motor car, but is he aware that the Ford motor car, as used in this country at the present moment, has ceased since the year 1916, when these taxes were introduced, to be an American car at all? The Ford Company have a very large factory now at Trafford Park, Manchester, and to-day the car can be described as a 70 per cent. British car; and it is the intention of the company in the very near future to make it an all-British car. Instead, therefore, of employing American labour at Detroit, and simply assembling the parts into the Ford car, as was the case prior to the imposition of this duty, we find them employing over 2,000 British people at Trafford Park making this car, while many more besides are employed in making the accessories for the car. Moreover, the price of the car to-day, owing to the recent reductions, is practically the same in this country as it is in Detroit. In addition to the Ford car, the Willis-Overland oar, which was previously made entirely in America, is now made at Heaton Chapel, near Manchester, with the result of employing a large number of people there.
I have had placed in my hands a most interesting letter, for which I am indebted to my Noble Friend the Member for South Nottingham (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck), and which I should like to read to the Committee, as it sets out the facts in a most valuable way. It is as follows:
Is this from a lace manufacturer?
6.0 P.M.
I am going to say straight away from whom it comes. It is from the Federation of British Industries. It is a considered statement. The facts are there to be challenged, and it quotes the figures. I venture to say it is a most remarkable letter, and proves up to the hilt the advantage which has accrued from these particular duties. There was one part of the speech of the hon. Member which I would entirely endorse, namely, the question he put as to why these duties are not extended to other luxuries. If you argue in favour of taxes on motorcars, I do not see why you should not argue in favour of taxes on motor tyres, which are quite as much a luxury as motor cars. If you put a tax upon the lady's motor car, I see no reason why you should not put a tax on the lady's silk dress, which is just as much a luxury; and, whether it is lace, silk, or motor tyres, we find great unemployment existing in those trades at the present moment, and the taxation of those commodities, if the Government saw fit, would not cause the slightest injury to one solitary person in this country. Over £30,000,000 worth of manufactured silk was imported into this country last year—a pure luxury. I do not think it can be argued for one minute that the national finances of this country can stand that large importation of manufactured goods of a luxury nature. I would remind the hon. Member, who spoke about war-time conditions, that war-time conditions, as far as our exchange with America is concerned, still exist. Our exchange with that country is still depreciated, and these importations all go to help in its depreciation. In that way the importation of these goods increases our cost of living, and increases our manufacturers' costs of production. When hon. Members opposite speak of the difficulty of paying our American debt by sending goods or gold abroad, do they realise that there is exactly the same difficulty in paying for unnecessary luxuries from abroad? I really think it is time hon. Members opposite forgot their shibboleths and their theories. It is time they came down to the realities of the situation and think how they can benefit our workpeople and assist the poor people who are out of work in these most important trades and try to see how the necessities of the present situation can be improved by import duties of a widely extended nature.
It is always a refreshing thing to hear a straightforward declaration from a convinced Protectionist, and the only thing that surprises me in the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down is his moderation. Why should he, holding the opinions he holds, desire to limit the benefit of protective tariffs to the production of articles of luxury? He tells us with perfect truth that if the argument for these duties as part of our permanent system is a good argument, it would prove that other duties on other and more widely consumed articles would be good duties, too. Why limit it to luxuries? Let us take boots and shoes. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] We are getting on. We already agree that the hon. Member has erred on the side of moderation, because those who sympathise with his arguments are already beginning to see that if it is a good one there is no reason for limiting it to luxures at all.
It is a better argument on luxuries, but that does not say the other one is a bad one.
I do not know if the hon. Member will favour me with one more explanation. Why is it a better argument on luxuries?
Because we can do without them.
Let us see where we are. The hon. Member's argument was that this tax imposed upon an imported luxury gave a great deal of employment, did not increase the price, and improved the quality of the product. If that is right, why in Heaven's name should he deny us the advantage of having boots and shoes on terms which will give more employment, will not increase the price, and will improve the quality of the boots and shoes? There is no reason at all, and though the hon. Member did not seem to be aware of it, there is no sense whatever in limiting the argument to luxuries.
Let us go a step further. It was for many years believed by a school of fiscal philosophers that you could somehow or other tax imported meat without necessarily increasing the price of meat. Does the hon. Member believe that? If it is the case that putting on these import duties really only has the result of increasing production here without increasing the price and securing higher wages, why in Heaven's name does he propose to limit the benefit which it is within his power to confer to the production of luxuries? Let us see whether he is quite right when he says these duties insure increased employment. I have had extracted from the Ministry of Labour Gazette for 23rd May some figures about unemployment. We shall all, whatever our fiscal opinions, deplore that there should be so many unemployed. There is no difference between Free Traders and Tariff Reformers about that. According to these figures the percentage of people unemployed whose occupation was that of making watches, jewellery, etc., was 12·3 per cent. Is the hon. Member quite certain that the McKenna duty of 33⅓ per cent. is calculated to guarantee abundant employment in the watch-making industry? The figures in the case of the construction and repair of vehicles, which are mostly motor cars nowadays, are 9·6 per cent. The figures for miscellaneous metal goods and musical instruments are 9·3 per cent. Is the hon. Member quite certain that, even on the very test he has taken, if you only clap on a high import duty you will secure work for all? I think it was doubt on that subject which brought the campaign of the Tariff Reformers to grief. If we turn more immediately to the McKenna duties we cannot help reflecting that the Secretary to the Treasury is enjoying a period of blissful existence intermediate between the ex-Prime Minister, on the one hand, and Mr. Reginald McKenna, on the other. He does his work so well that I do not quite understand why Mr. McKenna is wanted. When he comes he can trust him to deal with the arguments of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer). When the McKenna duties were introduced this is the language which was then used. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. McKenna, said:
We are all Free Traders now.
If everyone is a Free Trader, some people's declarations are a little difficult to follow. At any rate, the Secretary to the Treasury will no doubt be able to tell us whether he has ascertained that Mr. McKenna's views on this subject have changed, because of course he never would have been invited to join this Government, and he never would have consented to do so, if they were going to persist in a policy so flagrantly in conflict with the declarations he has made on this subject, and which are on record.
May I give one other illustration of the same thing? Mr. McKenna, when these duties were discussed on 19th October, 1915, in the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, said he was introducing these taxes, not as a general principle, with no intention of continuing them, with no desire to protect trade, without beginning any new Tariff Reform movement, but simply and solely for the declared purpose of this particular tax. I think the right hon. Gentleman really ought to tell the Committee and make plain to the country which of two possible lines of defence he proposes now to follow. I quite understand the line of argument of the hon. Member for Macclesfield. It is the argument of the out and out Protectionist, and he is perfectly entitled to hold that view. I feel certain he would hold it with perfect honesty in reference to the prevailing trade of any constituency which he happened to represent. I could not help thinking there was no difficulty in remembering his constituency when he began talking about the importance of the silk trade. There is no harm in that. It is part and parcel of the perfectly honest case of every Protectionist. It is impossible to suppose that this present Government is really going to put forward a defence for these duties which is based upon pure unadulterated Protection. If it is not, the right hon. Gentleman has another alternative, and I should be much interested to see how he carried it through. That he can do it with ingenuity I do not question, but can it seriously be said that here, in 1923, these duties are being continued merely as a temporary matter in connection with some special emergency? In that connection I recall the language used by the late Prime Minister, the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), when in 1915 these duties were first proposed. He was a Member of the Government. I speak feelingly in the matter, and I do not wish to conceal it, because I was a Member of the Government myself, and I believed what the ex-Prime Minister was saying. He said: In order to protect himself against the possibility of misunderstanding he went on to say:
The truth is, that everybody who is engaged in defending these duties to-day is really denying the basis upon which British trade has been built up, and the methods by which this crowded island has succeeded in maintaining its existence. I remember well in the Debate on Socialism, initiated by the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), that the President of the Board of Trade pointed out, with great force, that it was by our sales of goods abroad that we paid for the imports which come in. Nobody holding the office of President of the Board of Trade could possibly say anything different. It is equally true that the way in which we get markets for our goods abroad is by exchanging them for the goods that do come in, and yet we have the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), and those who most sincerely share his Protectionist views, imagining that we are going to increase employment in this country and raise wages in this country, and improve the product of the article when, as a matter of fact, you limit the source from which the article comes, and cut off the very supplies the import of which gives employment throughout the length and breadth of the land.
I was taught very early in life, in an argument never to accept my opponent's first assumption. In answering the right hon. and learned Gentleman I should say, never answer the first of his questions, because I am sure that his questions are more dangerous to his opponent than an ordinary disputant's assumptions. I do not think I am called upon here and now to enter into a long dissertation as to the relative merits of Free Trade and Protection. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has given us a dissertation which one expected from a convinced Free Trader, and it would be quite possible, I will not say for myself, but for someone more gifted than I am, to reply to him in a similar speech made up from the musty tomes of the history of Tariff Reform. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I thought I heard the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) say that they are indeed musty. I was speaking of them in reference to the still more musty tomes of Adam Smith. After all, mustiness is a comparative phrase. Let me see what I have to defend in regard to these particular duties. It is not any general system of protection that we are dealing with. We are dealing with certain specific duties imposed in 1915 by a gentleman who at that time, at any rate, was as convinced a Free Trader as my right hon. and learned Friend himself. Mr. McKenna at the time that he proposed these duties was a Free Trader, and in the speeches which my right hon. and learned Friend has quoted he expressed the hope that he would always be considered a Free Trader. I do not know what view my right hon. and learned Friend took of these duties in 1915, but I do not think he would be more a Free Trader than Mr. McKenna was at that date.
He was in the Government, too.
My right hon. and learned Friend was a Member of the Government. Therefore, he was not at that time opposed to the duties. Neither he nor Mr. McKenna did any violation to their Free Trade theories when they agreed to these duties being put on. Mr. McKenna in one of his speeches made a rather remarkable statement, which my right hon. and learned Friend did not quote. He said:
"In so far as the duties do not put an end to importation, they may be a source of revenue not to be neglected."
That is my position to-day. They are a source of revenue not to be neglected. Let us see what they bring in. They bring in, on cinematograph films, £250,000; on clocks and watches, £530,000; on motor cars, £1,300,000; and on musical instruments, £340,000; or, roughly, £2,500,000. In other words, they are in that respect fulfilling the intentions which Mr. McKenna and my right hon. and learned Friend himself had when they agreed to these duties as Members of the Government. If I were to enter into a discussion on lace and silk I should, undoubtedly, be getting into very deep questions as regards Free Trade and Tariff Reform into which I do not wish to enter; but let me say this in regard to the lace trade, that the City of Nottingham is depending, I will not say entirely, but very largely, on the lace trade. When I was at the Board of Trade I remember that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade received a deputation from all sections of the community in Nottingham, and I had the privilege of being present. I think I am right in saying that amongst that deputation was one of the representatives of the Labour party, who made a speech, which was something to this effect—I am paraphrasing it: "I want you to realise that I am a life-long Free Trader, but we must have Protection for Nottingham lace." That is the view of a good many perfectly honest Free Traders. In general they are Free Traders, but when the shoe pinches in regard to their own particular industry or their own constituency they want Protection. When they see, as we see at Nottingham, hundreds and thousands of men out of work, they are inclined to wonder whether the pure milk of Free Trade is really the best in all circumstances and in all cases. At all events, they have pressed His Majesty's Government from Nottingham to try and find some remedy for the con- dition of affairs there, and an announcement was made by the Home Secretary to-day that the Government proposed to appoint a Committee to inquire into the conditions of affairs at Nottingham and see what, if anything, can be done. I am quite sure that that Committee will have the sympathy of the whole House.
Nottingham lace is not one of the articles affected by these duties.
No.
We must not enter into an argument on that question.
I am obliged to you, Sir, for having stopped me, and I will leave lace for another occasion. I want to refer to one other quotation from the speech of the right hon. Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law). In 1915 it was thought that these duties would not be continued after the War. Nobody exactly knew and nobody could exactly foresee what would be the revenue derived from these duties, and what the effect of them would be. There has been no complaint from anyone in the industry affected by these taxes that they have been adversely affected; and there has been no complaint from any body of consumers that they have been adversely affected. Some play has been made with the question of the Ford car. What happened in regard to the Ford car? No sooner were these duties put on, and no sooner did the Ford Company find that they could not import their cars and sell them for the same price because of the 331/3 per cent. duty——
I did not refer to the Ford car particularly, but may I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question—if the importation of foreign cars has been stopped, whence does he derive the yield of revenue to which he referred?
I listened very carefully to the hon. Member, and I think he did deduce the case of the Ford car. He will see his speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow. As soon as these duties came into operation the Ford Company came over here and built factories, and are now building the Ford cars here, and employing British workmen. The revenue of £1,300,000 from duties on imported foreign motor-cars is derived from cars which come in, but the bulk of them are not Ford cars, because the bulk of the Ford cars now sold in this country are made here. Let me go a step further in regard to the speeches of the late Prime Minister on this subject. The right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite did not quote a speech which the late Prime Minister made after he had had experience of these duties in 1917. He merely quoted a speech at the beginning in 1915, before anybody knew what the duties would be likely to do. In July, 1917, in this House, the late Prime Minister said of these duties:
"The machinery is now working, and I can assure my right hon. Friend that in these circumstances it would be carrying prudery to the point of absurdity to cut off this source of revenue."
My right hon. and learned Friend did not quote that.
That was in the middle of the War.
Yes, and every year since, up to 1923, the Government of the day has seen no reason whatever to alter these duties.
What is the justification?
They want money.
Is it Protection?
It is a duty which, as Mr. McKenna said, if it did not stop importation would produce revenue. I found myself upon the statement of Mr. McKenna in 1915, upon the statement of the late Prime Minister in 1917, and upon the statement of the present Prime Minister a fortnight ago when, quoting the sentence from the late Prime Minister which I have just quoted, he concluded with the remark, "At least, I am not a prude." If I may say so, in all humility, I am not a prude. I am here as Financial Secretary to see what I can get in the way of revenue.
If it is revenue you want, why stop them?
At present these duties are carrying out admirably that which we desire to carry out. They have stopped the importation of certain articles; they have caused the manufacture of certain articles in this country, and they have produced a revenue of £2,500,000, a revenue which the Treasury cannot afford to give up, and I see no reason whatever for accepting the Amendment.
We are carrying on these Debates under a great disability. The Prime Minister is naturally absorbed in other duties. Where is the Chancellor of the Exchequer? It is like nothing so much as the play of Hamlet with the Prince of Denmark left out, and with a spectral figure hovering on the horizon as to whom you never know how or where he may appear. I have said that it is like the play of Hamlet with the Prince of Denmark left out, but perhaps I should have said it is like playing Hamlet without the Ghost. We all recognise the zeal and courtesy with which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury discharges his duties, but we do feel, as we are told that the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be filled and filled at an early date, subject no doubt to electoral considerations by Mr. McKenna, that we ought to have some assurance from the Treasury Bench to-day that the policy which they are about to adopt will be carried into effect by the gentleman who is destined to preside over the fortunes of the Treasury.
The case as regards those duties is so patent, I may say so flagrant, that it does not admit of argument at all. Why and when were these duties imposed? They were imposed in the year 1915 by the Government of which I was then the head, shortly after the first Coalition, and that Government contained, as everybody knows, Free Traders and Protectionists. They were imposed for one particular reason and one reason only. The question of revenue hardly came in; the revenue anticipated by the duties, and the revenue yielded by the duties, is really insignificant. They were imposed because the articles which were subject to these duties were articles of luxury imported from abroad, at a time when it was all important that the whole cargo space of our carrying trade should be occupied, and occupied exclusively, by the necessaries of life and of war, food, raw materials and munitions, without which we could not carry on the war. That was the sole justification for the imposition of these duties, and they were recommended by Mr. McKenna and the late Prime Minister, the one a convinced Free Trader and the other a convinced Protectionist, on that ground and on that ground only. In other words they were expedients to deal with the special emergency, the successful prosecution of the War, and by universal consent both of Free Traders and Protectionists they were to be abandoned when the War was over. Is that disputed? If it is disputed I will quote both from Mr. McKenna and from the late Prime Minister what they said at the time the duties were imposed. Mr. McKenna said: while the War was still going on, and the argument which was advanced at the time of the imposition of these duties, that they were necessary for the purposes of the War, was then, of course, equally valid. What justification is there, that being the genesis of these duties, as avowed in the statements of both these two Ministers holding opposite fiscal views, for continuing them now?
The right hon. Gentleman says that we cannot afford to lose the £2,500,000 which they yield. Let us look, not at the smaller matters, such as clocks and watches, but at the case of motor cars. What has been the effect on the motor car trade of this country? In the three years before the War, 1911–12–13, our export of motor cars was 17,400; in the three years 1920, 1921 and 1922 it sank to 9,000. That is the number of British motor cars for export purposes. On the other side, the import for the three years preceding the War was 17,500, and the import for the three years since the War with these heavy duties was 52,000. What inference does the right hon. Gentleman draw from that?
We are getting the revenue.
What good has it done or is it doing to British trade or to the motor car industry in this country? What kind of protection has it afforded to the industry which shows dwindling exports and growing imports? These figures afford one of the best object lessons as to what the efforts of the Protectionists really lead to. What is the answer to those figures? I am very anxious to hear it, and so far I have not heard it. We are to continue these duties, imposed for a temporary purpose and an absolutely necessary purpose, in order that we might use our ships for the import of things which we needed for the successful prosecution of the War, as was stated by both Ministers, one a Free Trader and the other a Protectionist, with the deliberate intention, and, indeed, in the national interest, that they should not be continued after the War—with no benefit whatever to the motor-car industry, for we have lost our export trade and increased our import trade. If it is said that it is in the interests of the motor-car industry, obviously it is having exactly the opposite effect. Is the object, then, to get this trumpery sum—for it is trumpery when the figures of our revenue are compared—this £2,500,000, which is no advantage to any industry. These duties are no advantage to either the producer or the consumer. They are a deliberate violation of the assurance which Parliament gave when the duties were imposed, and I shall be very glad to hear anything which can be said in their favour.
I would like to quote a few figures in answer to the facts which have just been given by the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). He spoke especially about the motor-car industry. This tax of 33⅓ per cent. was imposed on all foreign cars coming into this country at a time when most of our factories were being returned from the making of munitions to the making of cars again. The effect of that has been to preserve our motor industry in this country so far as pleasure cars are concerned. Not only that, but it has induced some of our foreign competitors to set up their own factories in this country. The hon. Member for Macclesfield has told us about the Ford Company in Manchester. We have also been told about the Willys-Overland car at Heaton Chapel, the General Motors at Hendon, the Studebaker at Willesden Green, and the Fiat at Wembley. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment is very keen about solving the question of unemployment. The effect of this tax is to help us to solve unemployment. These five foreign firms have got to employ men in this country, merely because of the fact that it pays them to do so.
May I quote what is happening in the opposite case where there is no such form of protection? There is no form of protection for what are known as commercial motor-cars. That industry, which formerly employed 20,000 men, employs barely 5,000 to-day, and from America and foreign countries last year no fewer than 18,000 out of 22,000 cars were imported into this country. Two years ago there were 16 firms manufacturing motor-oars. The figures which I quoted the other day showed that 12 of these firms were still manufacturing cars, but that last year they had lost over £2,355,000. The remaining four firms have gone into liquidation, and since that date I heard of a further firm having gone into liquidation. Two more firms, Napiers and Wolseleys, have given up the manufacture of commercial cars. I look upon that as a very great blow to our industry and it can only be remedied by a similar imposition of a 33⅓ per cent. tax, if we are not to lose the whole of our commercial motor industry in this country. I fully realise that the Treasury may say that they are bound not to alter their fiscal system, but is this a question of altering it? You have already this tax on motor-cars, and it is simply a question of embracing the whole motor-car trade instead of one particular section. If my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, having eaten nine-tenths of a cake, was to refuse to eat the remaining tenth, not because he had had too much already but because he said he was not allowed to do so, we should not look upon that as a genuine excuse. It is the same with regard to the motor industry. I know the right hon. Gentleman was very keen before he came to the Treasury on this particular point, and I am sure when he looks at it through the rosy-coloured spectacles of the Treasury, his view can hardly change so greatly in a short time that he will not look upon this proposal with very great sympathy.
We do not want to lose our commercial motor industry altogether and if the present methods are continued, I believe in a very short time—we have only nine firms out of 17 left—we shall have to get all our cars from America and other foreign countries. The American manufacturers are turning out every year 40,000 commercial cars and they can afford to send any surplus over here in order to destroy our industry. The American manufacturers in a year can produce over 20 times what the total capacity of the whole of our commercial car industry would be able to make in a year. I therefore ask the Treasury to look upon this tax as one to be imposed, if not this year at any rate in ensuing years. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley could not have given a better example in support of my case than the commercial motor industry, in which there is unemployment to the extent of 75 per cent., while in the ordinary or so-called "pleasure car" manufacturing industry in this country, which has the duty, there is, practically no unemployment whatever.
We in this quarter of the House are opposed to all forms of tariffs and our views on taxation are diametrically opposed to the views of hon. Members on the other side of the Committee. So far as I can gather from the speeches we have heard, hon. Members opposite desire to broaden the basis of taxation, but we desire to narrow the basis of taxation. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury quoted the instance of a deputation from Nottingham and he made special reference to the presence on that deputation of a Labour leader. That Labour leader was probably carrying out the instructions of the workpeople in his industry and was obeying orders. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I wanted that cheer because I desire to add that the probability is that the average person engaged in the lace making industry in Nottingham or elsewhere has not gone very deep into economic science and does not realise that while some help might be derived from a tariff in connection with that industry, yet if every worker sought for a tariff on his particular industry we should again reach the status quo —we should be back where we were before. What our friends always forget is that these tariffs raise prices, and that is one of our objections to them. I have the testimony on that point of the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) in speaking on the Safeguarding of Industries Act.
I could not check the remarks of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but I foresaw that their result would be the inception of a Debate on the general question, and I am afraid I must ask the hon. Member to limit his remarks to the particular articles which are under discussion.
On that point of Order. May I submit that the argument which the hon. Member was putting was that such duties raised prices and that a quotation in regard to an analogous case was relative to that argument?
If the hon. Member will apply his argument to the articles under discussion he will be perfectly in order.
I do not wish to offend against the rules of procedure, but, if I may, I should like to quote what the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Swansea said when these duties were being extended.
May I ask the hon. Member also to quote what the right hon. Baronet said when he was on this side of the House?
I believe he was on that side of the House when he spoke in favour of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, as a Free Trader. He did not shock the House too suddenly. He did it very gently and what he said about the extension of the duties was:
"We are merely providing a breakwater and endeavouring not to introduce tariffs under which British manufacturers will be able to raise prices to an unreasonable extent."
It is quite evident that the right hon. Gentleman could not trust the manufacturers and knew that if they had liberty they would put up the prices. We, on this side of the House, are quite sure they would do so, and that is why we are opposed to these tariffs and, of course, the manufacturers would defend action of that sort by saying it was the operation of the law of supply and demand.
During the last two years, since these duties have been enforced with regard to motorcars, there has been a steady decrease in prices owing to the competition in this country.
On the occasion to which I refer, the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Swansea went on to say, first, that the Act might raise prices. Then he went a little further and said it certainly would raise prices, and going further still he said: "Of course it will raise prices. It is bound to do so, and if it did not, there would be no point in it." It seems to me that is why the motor-car industry is supporting this tax, and it seems, too, that the tax is not quite carrying out all that our friends on the other side of the Committee claim for it. The last speaker said we were not building commercial cars to-day. I find that in 1921 there were imported 2,260 commercial cars, and in 1922 only 973. I imagine that the trouble with the commercial-car industry is not due to tariffs, or the want of tariffs, but to the number of cars which have been unloaded on the market from the "white elephant" depot at Slough and from other places. Thousands of cars used during the War have been done up and sold, and the makers of new cars could not expect to enter into competition with vehicles capable of being sold so cheaply. One of the things overlooked by the supporters of these tariffs is, that if prices are raised the purchasing power of the people in other directions is restricted. If we have to pay extra for the things which are taxed, necessarily our purchasing power as regards other articles is limited.
A point was made that wages here have been stabilised. That was remarked on in the letter read from the Federation of British Industries. Wages have been stabilised but at a very low point. How do they compare with wages in the United States? I have a list here showing the wages paid in the motor-car industry—not in the Ford works alone but throughout the United States—and I find that the average rate per week per adult, for a full week is 33.19 dollars, or round about £7 per week. What do we pay mechanics in the motor industry in England? I mean those employed on the ordinary cars, and not on the heavy cars like the Rolls-Royce. I venture to say there is not a man earning £3 a week, because skilled engineers in the dockyards, who are making battleships, are only getting £2 15s. The statement usually made, that the money is going in wages, cannot be made in this case. I admit the hours in the United States are a little higher. They are about two per week more—the average hours for the full week being 50·1. I suggest that the trouble in the motor-car industry, in addition to the cause I have already mentioned, is very largely due to over-capitalisation. According to the figures I have here, many firms in the boom years were making presents to themselves of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and, of course, if you cannot keep up the figures of the boom year during the slump year, then you are going to the dogs. You must expect to get back on the swings, at some other time, what you are losing on the roundabouts to-day.
An hon. Member opposite made a reference to the "cheap and nasty" Ford car, and I rather resent the adjective "nasty." If everything cheap is nasty, there are not many things which I have been able to buy during my life which have not been "cheap and nasty," because I have had to buy cheap articles, as my wages have not been high. That applies to food and clothes and houses and the other things which we buy. They are mostly nasty and, I may say, that having now got on in the world somewhat I have ventured to raise my eyes as high as a Ford car, and I am sure the manufacturers opposite will not make a car that I can so well afford to buy or keep up. As a distinguished Member of this House said to me the other day, "If you break down anywhere with a Ford car, any old blacksmith can repair it, whereas with a bigger car you have got to have it towed home and wait a long time to have the repairs carried out." I imagine that, being of a somewhat mechanical turn of mind, if I had a ball of string and a soldering iron I should be all right with a Ford car.
7.0 P.M.
The reason why the motor car industry is in such a bad state is because it is not organised on right lines. There have been too many little firms competing for a little trade. If we were to organise production as I understand it has been organised in the United States, I believe we could compete with the world. We are told that the Ford people are coming over to England. Of course, they are. Everybody who has read Henry George's "Free Trade and Protection" knows that is the inevitable outcome of the policy which we hear advocated. I ask hon. Members, have any British manufacturers gone abroad to escape the tariffs of foreign countries? If so, matters are simply being balanced. If the Rolls-Royce people are making cars in France in order to get round the 75 per cent. duty on cars going into France, then cars which might have been made in England by engineers and not by tinkers, are being made in France instead. If British manufacturers do not go abroad to get round tariffs then they are not so smart as the Yankees who come here to get round our tariff, and it seems to me they do not know their business. I feel, and the party to which I belong feel, that with regard to these taxes the thing was settled in the days of Henry George, and that we are only beating the air. I have heard no argument from the other side since I have been here, and I have never heard any of the Tariff Reformers, in the Tariff Reform campaign, put up a case against the case set out by Henry George. We on this side of the Committee——
I would point out to the hon. Member that it would not be in order to try to do so on this Amendment.
As this does affect Free Trade and Protection, I thought I was entitled to quote so eminent an authority as Henry George.
Mr. George died before the invention of motor cars.
I would very respectfully say that the principle is the same. I am rather discussing the principle than the price of motor cars, although the motor car is the peg on which I happen to be hanging my argument at the moment. We are quite sure that Protection all round will leave us where we started, and that when these duties are levied, as the President of the Board of Trade knows, he immediately gets other people coming along, and saying, "We also want these things." We on this side of the Committee contend that if all the duties were swept away—and we desire to do that—we should be travelling on a far safer road. We should then be able to stabilise, without all these people coming and agitating for tariffs, and we should then know where we are. Therefore I oppose this tariff.
I am very sorry that the hon. Member who has just sat down is in favour of this Amendment, and I hope the Government will not accept it. I would rather, instead of accepting this Amendment, that they should increase the provisions of these duties. I will take the same reason for that view as has been given by the hon. Member. He wonders whether manufacturers in this country are organising so well as they ought. I think there is no doubt they are not doing so, and one reason is that they are not able to do it. One of the best conditions under which a man can organise his business is when he is certain of a fair amount of production, or of a reasonably full week's work in a week. Just because the manu- facturers in this country are not as certain of their markets as are the manufacturers in other countries, they are unable to organise in the same degree. This is an opportunity for me to ask a question, which I have often asked before, as to whether the Government can give us a reason why motor car tyres are not included as an accessory of a motor car. It is not altogether a matter of adding to the import duties, but manufacturers of motor cars do think that, as an elementary act of justice, the Government ought to tell them why they cannot include tyres as an accessory.
We all know that it was because of the exigencies of the War that motor-car tyres were excluded, but the manufacturers think that when the War is over they certainly ought to have been re-included in the Schedule in regard to import duties. They feel that they are suffering very unfair and unjust competition from those manufacturers abroad who are not labouring under the same disabilities. During the War, our manufacturers were asked to do all they possibly could to manufacture for the purposes of the War, and they did so. Now, in very many cases, they find themselves with a plant which they cannot possibly run to more than from 25 to 50 per cent. of its capacity. I will defy even the brains of hon. Members opposite to run a business successfully on those lines. I would ask hon. Members opposite not to be always saying that we must avoid any import duties on the ground of cheapness. If they are right, as they assume they are, in their policy of absolutely free importation of goods, how is it that in this country we have more unemployment than any other country in the world?
I am afraid the hon. Member seems to be going rather wide of these particular articles. If he can connect his argument with that, then it will be in order.
My argument is that instead of doing away with the Import Duty it would be a far better policy for us to increase it, because by doing so we should, at any rate, increase the employment in our own country. We have many instances which prove that because you can buy things cheaply it does not necessary follow that you are any better off in the long run. Supposing, for argument's sake, a man were to say that he could buy an American or French motor car tyre cheaper than an English one, and that they were all cheaper, owing to the absence of an Import Duty. That might be so; but he would have to help to keep the people here who were unemployed because of that importation of foreign tyres. Therefore, it is a reasonable argument to say that it is not by any means the case that because you can buy a thing cheaper you are, in the long run, better off. It is about time that we in this country gave more consideration as to the broad effects of an Import Duty of this sort, and whether it really benefits us or not. It does not follow for one moment that because we can buy more cheaply that we should benefit. If, however, we can get our people working, instead of having them as they are——
I am afraid the argument of the hon. Member would be relevant to almost any Import Duty, he must keep to the particular and the concrete.
I would have kept more to motor car tyres, had I not thought that possibly Members of the Committee would have been just as tired of this subject as I am myself. I am trying to press the Government to give some reason for their action. I think this is an opportunity for them to give this trade some satisfaction, and a definite reason why they cannot re-include tyres in the Schedule of Import Duties.
I listened with considerable surprise to the arguments used by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, namely, that cheapness is not a benefit. I should have thought that that was a proposition which might almost be as conclusive as the famous answer to a riddle with which we were all familiar in our childhood: "the higher the fewer." It seems to me to be just about as successful. I should like to say a word or two with regard to the speech of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, because it seemed to me, despite the compliments which were passed upon it by my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), to be singularly superficial in its reasoning; indeed, it seemed to me to be almost misleading in its reasoning. The Financial Secretary referred to the specific duties which had been imposed by Mr. McKenna, but he quite omitted to say that they were imposed for a specific purpose, and for a specific purpose only. I hope it will be in order to make a very brief reply to the arguments which he said had been put forward on behalf of the Nottingham lace industry by the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday). I am sorry to see the hon. Member is not here, and therefore cannot put the point of view which he actually did express, and which I will try to put for him The right hon. Gentleman did not tell the Committee that the case which was put forward on behalf of the Nottingham lace industry by the hon. Member for West Nottingham was not at all "I am a Free Trader, but I must have protection for a particular industry." That is a most unfair travesty of the hon. Gentleman's argument. What he did say was this, that here were a number of other industries, receiving protection which was denied the industry in which he was interested. If the industry in which he was interested was not to have protection, why should the others have protection? That is a very different argument, and I submit that the right hon. Gentleman really somewhat seriously misrepresented the case in the absence of my hon. Friend.
Then the Financial Secretary made a statement to the effect that there was no complaint from any body of consumers as to the price of motor cars. I do not think I have ever heard a more astonishing statement. The whole country has been ringing for a long time with complaints about the high price of motor cars, and as one of my hon. Friends says, you cannot buy them. I would ask whether, in point of fact, cheap transport is not one of the most essential requirements of the rural life of this country? It is the most essential thing. Again, the Financial Secretary put, what I suppose he thought was a valid argument, by pointing out that the Ford Company, which was affected by the tariff, had come over here and set up works. Yes, but at what price are they selling the Ford cars? They are selling them at a competitive rate in the English market; that is to say, they are selling them at prices which are based upon the selling prices of English cars, which again must be based upon the 33⅓ tariff. Therefore, surely, if it is in the best interests of the rural population that cars should be cheap and easily obtained, the Government ought to think twice before continuing to impose a duty which has the effect of keeping cheap cars out.
There is one final point with regard to the speech of the Financial Secretary. He said the Government were basing the maintenance of this tariff upon the requirements of revenue. Incidentally, may I point out to the Committee that the defence of the tariff is proceeding upon two totally different bases on the Front Bench and the back benches on the other side of the Committee. The Government Front Bench say, "It is not a question of protection, it is a pure matter of revenue"; and they quote the late Prime Minister in support of that argument. The back benches are not only putting it on the ground of protection, but are urging the Government to go a step further, and increase the protection. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] It is very interesting to learn that I have not misrepresented them. On that point, might I suggest to the Financial Secretary that there really is something much bigger than revenue, especially than a sum of revenue amounting in all to £2,500,000, which is not a very formidable percentage of the total annual revenue of the country. What is bigger than revenue is what is called trade balance. The figures quoted by the right hon. Member for Paisley are very significant in that respect. May I point out something which still further bears out his argument, namely, that the imposition, in the United States of America, of what is called the Fordney Tariff—which is, if I may respectively say so, a tariff gone mad, a tariff my hon. Friends opposite would like to see on motor cars, is something much higher and stricter—the result of the imposition of the 90 per cent. Fordney tariff has been to turn a credit balance of £225,000,000 into what I may term a debit balance of £50,000,000. That is to say, before the Fordney tariff, there was a balance of exports over imports of £225,000,000; and after the Act, a balance of imports over exports of £50,000,000. That is to say, there has been a gross turnover of something like £275,000,000 in value, which is ascribed by economists to the operation of that tariff. In those circumstances, I certainly hope the Mover of the Amendment will press it to a Division, and that all those who are interested in the maintenance of free trade will support him in the Lobby.
I should like to put a point of Order to you, Mr. Chairman. The Deputy-Chairman, in issuing this discussion on this particular Clause, as I understood it threw open the whole Clause for discussion, but I may have misunderstood him. My reason for putting the point is that there is an Amendment to which my name, with others, appears, in connection with the duties on fruits, and I should like to know if it is in order to discuss it.
I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman must have misunderstood the Deputy-Chairman. I know that what he intended to say was that all these McKenna import duties could be discussed together; that they could not be discussed separately, but could be divided on separately, if that was the wish of the Committee, and I understand it was. I may say, however, that I propose to call the Dried Fruits Duty Amendment when we reach that point.
I thank you for your ruling, Sir.
One or two things have been said which have very much astonished me. First of all, the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) and the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) both made great play of the fact that these duties were imposed during the War, and for the War only, but I would point out that the War is not yet over, as we have still, I understand, to make peace with Turkey. That may not be a very important point, but it is a point. These duties were imposed at a time of quite abnormal stress and were justified at that time because of that stress, and what I contend is that the world has not yet returned to the normal, and that until it does return to the normal, it is of little use to compare the figures of 1914 with those of 1923. It seems to me that you have to keep those duties on until you can get some sort of period which will mean something like what we were going through in 1914. The right hon. Member for Paisley quoted figures of the imports and exports of motor vehicles into this country. If he were here now, I would have liked to ask him whether those figures included the motor vehicles which were used by our own Army and also, I understand, by the American Army in France. It may be of interest to hon. Members to know that one of the things, as the hon. Member for South Leeds (Mr. Charleton) truly said, which hit commercial motor vehicles here harder than anything else was the return of these commercial motor vehicles used by our Army and the American Army during the War. They have been brought back to Slough and unloaded on the market, and it has hit the British commercial motor industry very hard indeed, and I would like to ask the right hon. Member for Paisley whether the figures he gave included those discarded war vehicles. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) said he did not believe the prices of British motor vehicles were cheap or going down. I think he said they were going up.
No, the Noble Lord is quite wrong. What I said was that the fact of the Ford Company bringing their factories into this country merely meant that the Ford motor-car would compete in the home market on the same basis as other cars.
Exactly, and therefore it is of interest to know that the price of the Ford car to-day is about £175, whereas the price of the Morris Oxford car is about £225.
The price of the Ford car here is £175, but the price of the Ford car in America is something like £90. [An HON. MEMBER: "£60!"]
Therefore the Ford car can be made by means of its super-organisation in this country at a cheaper rate than a British car.
Certainly, but the whole point of my intervention was this, that by reason of inflating the prices of English motor-cars by protecting them, the Ford car, whilst underselling the British car, sells at a higher rate here than it would if it were imported and merely had to pay freight and charges of entry.
Then, under the protection of the Fordney tariff, the Ford car can be sold at £90 or £60 in. America, whereas in this country, without the Fordney tariff, it cannot be sold at much less than £150. With regard to the argument that the prices of motorcars are really raised by this tax, take the Morris Oxford car, a car which enjoys the greatest figure of production in this country to-day, and is being produced on a scale of output of something like 15,000 to 20,000 cars a year. That car before the War—or, rather, it was hardly in existence then, but was being produced during the War—cost about £380 to £400. To-day it costs £225, so that I do not think it can be said that the effect of the 33⅓ per cent. duty necessarily means an increase in the price of a car. In regard to the question of the actual value of a protective tariff, before the War the Rolls-Royce car was bought up very largely abroad, and particularly in France. The Rolls-Royce car is the synonym for pretty well everything that is best in motor-car engineering, and, as I say, it was exported from this country to France and sold there very largely. The French brought in duties which amount to 75 per cent. of the total value of the vehicle, and since those duties have been brought in, I believe you could count the number of Rolls-Royce cars sold actually in France on the fingers of both hands. [An HON. MEMBEK: "Depreciation in exchange!"] It is due to depreciation in the exchange, perhaps. If you do not have some sort of restriction on foreign cars entering this country, what are you going to do with the cars produced by the Mercedes firm, at the rate at which they pay German wages now? The Mercedes car is being imported to a small extent into this country, and no doubt, if it were not for certain difficulties in industrial Germany, it would be imported much more largely than it is, but surely it is a little unfair to tell the British workman and manufacturer that they have got to compete against the Mercedes firm, paying the wages that they do under the difference in the exchange.
I hope the Government will be quite firm, and will not recede in this matter of Import Duties. I, like my hon. Friend below, the Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood) cannot understand why it is that the motor tyre, which is just as much an accessory of a car as any other fitting, is not included amongst the list of accessories, and similarly taxed. We find to-day that enormous numbers of motor cars are coming in, and we find unemployment in the industry, and it seems to me that if a less number of motor tyres were imported, more men would be employed here in making them. That seems to me to be only common sense, and I cannot understand the reluctance of the Government to deal with that point. With regard to commercial motor vehicles, I have an Amendment down, which I rather fancy is not in order, asking the Government to consider the question of taxing imported commercial motor vehicles, and I hope the Government, even if they are not able to give a favourable answer with regard to this point at this juncture, will be able to consider it in the future. The British commercial motor vehicle industry has been a very fine one. We owed a great deal to it during the War, and the least we can do is to see that it does not suffer as a result of the War. It is suffering hopelessly to-day. The figures for unemployment have been given already, and I will not repeat them, but it seems to me that that industry is really worth the Government's consideration, and I hope they will be able to give it consideration in the future. There is one other point to which I would like to allude. The hon. Member for South Leeds said he did not believe that any engineer in Coventry was getting wages of £3 a week. I am not able to speak with regard to Coventry, because I do not belong to the town, and I am only sorry that my hon. Friend representing Coventry (Sir E. Manville) is not able to be here to answer it, but I will say this——
I had in mind the engineers' rate, and that is below £3.
Of course, in Coventry they do not make only motor cars. They make bodies as well. I know a little bit about the motor body building industry, and I can tell my hon. Friend that the wages in the body building industry for certain grades of workers are far in excess of £3. Foremen trimmers, after the War, got as much as £10 a week. They do not get that now, but their wages ran up to that figure, and, therefore, I think my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, when he gets back, will be able to give an answer to my hon. Friend the Member for South Leeds.
I want to say a word or two on this motor-car question. We have heard a good deal about the growth of the output of Ford motor cars, and we have been told that, owing to the tax of 33⅓ per cent. imposed in 1915, the Ford Company have commenced to build their cars in this country. I understood that to mean that they have begun to build them here throughout, but I should be very surprised to know that the Ford people have commenced to build engines at Trafford Park. I understand the engines still come in, and that the care are merely built up at Trafford Park.
When the importation was first started, that is quite correct, but it is not correct to-day.
The engines come in from America.
That is not correct. Seventy per cent. of the engines are made in this country.
Supposing I accept that, I will take this other point, that, so far as I understand it, Ford's pay about the best wages that are paid in the engineering trade. They pay an all-round standard wage, and they pay their shop sweepers as much as they pay their engineers. They pay their charwomen £3 a week, and I know of no motor-car company which does the same. Certainly the Ford Company do not do it because of the tax, but because of good business organisation, because they have organised their business to meet the demand, because they have laid themselves out to turn out these cars on a very large scale and by mass production. That is why Ford's can do it, because they have scientifically organised their trade. We were told by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), on the Second Reading, that motor cars in Coventry were now being sold at less than pre-War prices, and I reminded him then that the motor-car industry owed its success to the lessons learned during the War. There is no doubt in my mind that the motor-car industry learned the lesson of the War, and to the application of automatic machinery it owes its success, as also to the superior organisation of 1922 over the organisation of 1913. I was further proceeding, in reply to the hon. Member for Macclesfield, to show that I have an interest in this kind of output, that the Overland Motors is now amalgamated with Crossleys, and that the company operates under the name of Crossleys, Limited.
What I said was, that the Overland cars, which were made in America, are now made in England, at Heaton Chapel.
They are made at Crossley's. As a matter of fact, I have lived within a stone's throw of where Crossley's built during the War at Heaton Chapel. I have just looked up the Stock Exchange quotation for Crossley's, and it is 6s. 6d. That does not sound much—6s. 6d. for a £1 share, and Crossley's Overland is 8s. Last year they were running about 12s. Now, following the continued success of the cars, and owing to the operation of the McKenna tariff, they are down to 6s. 6d. My word, we are doing great business! Yet the hon. Member for Macclesfield is astonished at these results, and has endeavoured to tell us how to run these businesses. The hon. Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) spoke on this matter. Do I understand him to say that the Crossley, as well as the Ford motor car, is now being sold at about £150 to £160?
I said £175.
I happened a week or two ago to be in a new Ford car. [ Laughter. ] Yes, Ford sometimes assists even members of the Labour party, and my friend who owns the car told me that he paid £130 for it all on. At any rate, my point is this: That these things are not due to the imposition of the McKenna tariff. Why did the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Battersea quote Ford's? I was in Hamburg a week or two ago, and I was told that skilled engineers were receiving wages of about 80,000 marks a week, and at that time marks were 200,000 to the £ sterling. This meant about 6s. 8d. per week expressed in terms of British money. I ask the hon. Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) whether the addition of 33⅓ per cent. will help the wages of these men, and, therefore, how on earth can the addition of that 33⅓ possibly help the British engineer here.
I should like to see it 90 per cent.
If you are going in for real Protection, then the tariff ought to be 300 per cent. and not 33⅓. The whole thing is purely Protectionist. There is a very fair test that can be applied to these Protectionist arguments. That is what is the effect of Protection on the actual mass of the people engaged in these industries in the various Protectionist countries——
The hon. Member, I am afraid, is wandering away from the point before the Committee, and dealing with the general question.
One is led into these difficulties by the bad example set by hon. Members opposite, for it is more easy to follow an evil course than a good one, perhaps owing to the natural "cussedness" of mankind. At any rate I got up for the purpose of protesting against the continued imposition of a tax of this description. I do not think it helps our working classes at all. It is the beginning of an exceedingly bad fiscal system, and one particularly vicious, and for that reason I utter the strongest protest I can.
I desire to be very brief and to keep myself within your ruling, Mr. Hope. I rise because I think a brief reply is due to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), and also because it is desirable to show the extremely ingenious speciousness of the charges he has brought against us. The proposal before the Committee for the abolition of these taxes is a very hardy annual. It is introduced, I think, year after year, not in the least on the merits of the case, because it is the poorest case that can be made out against the tax; it is put forward rather because of the anxiety on the part of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who fear that, as the people find how much revenue this tax brings in, and how little it inconveniences them, and the satisfaction it gives, as the years go on it will be more and more difficult to repeal it. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley based his claim for a removal of these taxes on speeches which were made in 1915—and which he quoted—when the taxes were introduced. Because some thing was said in 1915, he averred, this Parliament of 1923 have no business whatever to keep on the tax. The right hon. Gentleman surely forgot one thing, and that is that since that time not only one but two general elections have taken place. Every single person who stood, at any rate, as a free Liberal candidate at the last election led by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, was most careful to point out in his election address, and in every speech he delivered, that if the electorate were rash enough to vote for the Conservative candidate, not merely would these taxes be kept on but probably all kinds of other taxes would be added thereto. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"] I know nothing as to the accuracy of some of these speeches; it is not my business to challenge that; but really you cannot go on through a general election objecting to these iniquitous and immoral taxes and then when the electorate votes against you and you find yourself in a considerable minority—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] That is so! [ Interruption. ] I do not propose to follow the hon. Member further. [An HON. MEMBER: "That would be very dangerous."] But apart from that I should not have much difficulty in showing that a united phalanx on this side, triumphant and——
:I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman is following the wrong lead given to him by the hon. Gentleman opposite whom I had occasion to ask to keep to the point.
I am obliged, Mr. Hope; but I am at this moment concerned to show that the charge of breach of faith brought against us is absolutely groundless. If hon. Members opposite will consult their own speeches every one of them will know that. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley relied partly upon the past. He also displayed anxiety for the future. He suggested that this House is not entitled to pass this tax because of what Mr. McKenna thought about it in 1915, but may I say if what hon. Members opposite suggest be true, that surely Mr. McKenna would never dream of joining a Government which proposed such Measures? May I point out one simple fact? This Clause was pant of the Finance Bill which was introduced into this House on 23rd April last, and Mr. McKenna's acceptance of the offer of office by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was made to him some months after this Bill was introduced. So he knew the contents of it. I think I have said enough to dispose of the charge of breach of faith. The Clause has been argued upon its merits. The taxes bring in revenue. It safeguards people in employment. The Government cannot, and have no intention, of dropping the taxes.
There is no question at all, but that a definite pledge was given when the Free Traders accepted these taxes that they would come off at the end of the War. The right hon. Gentleman answered that point by saying it is quite true that six or seven years ago that may have happened, but since then two elections have been fought and the Prime Minister is absolved from the pledge given. The pledge stands. That pledge has been broken, and nothing the right hon. Gentleman can say can possibly alter that fact. Further, he answered another question. We asked, are these taxes temporary or permanent. We asked the present Prime Minister, who was much more cautious than the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. He always has said: "I am going on until next year, and we will see." Now what my right hon. Friend tells us is that this is a hardy annual. What is a hardy annual? A thing that comes up every year. That is the answer he gives to our question to allay the fears of his supporters. The right hon. Gentleman now announces that this tax is to be permanent, and a part of the fiscal machinery of the country. Then the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood) asked that the tax should be extended, as another hardy annual, to motor tyres.
I wonder if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would like to ride in a motor car without tyres?
The hon. Member, in that theory, has my entire support. It would be unfair to put a tariff upon one industry unless you have a general tariff on every industry. The late Prime Minister said so. The right hon. Gentleman said it was impossible to have a tax on one manufactured article without immediately raising an agitation for a tax on all manufactured articles, and in logic, of course, that is quite right. The third point I wish to deal with is the incidence of the duty. The Noble Lord opposite for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) said that the cars were cheaper. I prefer to take the exponent of Government policy, the First Lord of the Admiralty. His opinion was quite plain. He said:
"Tariff reform would encourage people to buy goods made by the hands of their fellow countrymen by imposing a tax on those people who, as purchasers, employed foreign labour."
So that it is quite clear that Tariff Reform means imposing a tax on people who buy motor cars, instead of buying the goods in this country made by our own people. There is only one further point with which I wish to deal. Would the Financial Secretary to the Treasury say that when Mr. McKenna becomes Chancellor of the Exchequer he is to continue the taxes? The President of the Board of Trade has told us that Mr. McKenna accepted office—it was a rash statement—after the Bill had been introduced, and that therefore he is willing to continue the taxes. Has he any authority to say that?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is very fond of importing into what one says a great deal more than one has said. I was dealing, and all I am concerned to do is to deal with the charge made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman's leader, in which he said how impossible the situation was, that we must wait and see what Mr. McKenna would do, that the Budget has to be got on with, and that Mr. McKenna would never consent to a proposal of this kind. I pointed out that this Bill was introduced as the Finance Bill of the year before Mr. McKenna accepted office, and that Mr. McKenna accepted office.
That is not quite an answer, and I do not know why the President of the Board of Trade should have replied. I am asking the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is he prepared to say that he has any reason to suppose that Mr. McKenna will continue these duties when be becomes Chancellor of the Exchequer, or that he approves of these duties?
I was asked yesterday about Mr. McKenna's views on another question. At the moment Mr. McKenna is not a Member of this House or of the Government. My answer yesterday was that when Mr. McKenna appears on the Treasury Bench the hon. and gallant Gentleman can ask him as many questions as he likes. Mr. McKenna's views on these questions at this moment are quite irrelevant to the subject under Debate.
In the solid phalanx there appears a fissure, because the Financial Secretary is far more astute than the President of the Board of Trade. He is not willing to give any pledge because he has to be the lieutenant of Mr. McKenna, and the President of the Board of Trade is independent. We were told that Mr. McKenna accepted office knowing that this Bill had been introduced, and by inference approved of the Bill. I venture to say that Mr. McKenna is opposed to these duties and wishes to see them repealed.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman asked me a question and I will now ask one of him. What authority has he for making that statement?
It is a very difficult question, but I will try to answer. Mr. McKenna is, of course, a Free Trader, and has been accepted by the Government as a necessary help in time of trouble. I think Mr. McKenna is opposed to these duties and wishes to see them repealed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Think!"] Yes, I think, and I will tell hon. Members why. Because in 1921 a firm called the Estey Organ Company, whose trade has been entirely destroyed by these duties, wrote to Mr. McKenna and asked him what he thought. This is what Mr. McKenna said, under date, 31st May, 1921:
"DEAR SIR,—I deeply regret that the Government have not given effect to my promise which was publicly made in the House of Commons, that the ad valorem duties on imported luxuries, including organs, should be imposed for the period of the War only. The best advice I can offer now is that you should appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remove the tax, which, I am well aware, operates very injuriously to your business."
May I say, with regard to that, that the statement was made two years ago. I do not know whether the letter was written for publication or not. That is not my business. But I do know this—I think I am entitled to say this much, although it is very inconvenient and rightly inconvenient that the views of a gentleman who is not a member of His Majesty's Government should be canvassed in the way they are—I do know that Mr. McKenna is a man with a deep sense of honour, that he has been asked to join this Government, and if he joins this Government I am perfectly certain that he will join it accepting to the full all the responsibility which joining the Government implies. May I appeal to hon. Members to come to a decision in this matter. We have had a very pleasant Debate. The whole question has been thrashed out admirably and with equal good temper on both sides. We have a great deal more work to do, and I do not like sitting up all night any more than hon. Members opposite.
I want to deal with the statement made by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer). It evidently came from his great connection with successful business. In trying to discuss the question of tariffs the hon. Member seemed to slip right over the hill and down into the bog. He seemed to have lost any little reason he has or any little logic that he can apply. He gave an illustration of the piano trade of this country, and pointed out how by this tariff the piano trade of this country had so improved that we could now capture markets anywhere in the face of any competition. The hon. Member personally could not do that, but he was talking about other people who know the business. If we are now so competent in the manufacture of the piano, why is it necessary to keep on a tariff, since we can meet any kind of competition? Is it not for the reason that practically all tariff countries keep up the high price of the instrument at home and use the surplus in order to give a cheaper piano to those outside the country and thereby meet competition? There is no logic on honesty about a statement of the kind that has been made, and certainly a great lack of knowledge as far as the industry is concerned.
No tariff around ignorance, no tariff walls built around incapacity, will bring business. If we are competing successfully to-day in the manufacture of pianos or any other musical instruments it is because we have become more skilled in the production of those instruments, and that stands apart from any question of Tariff Reform. Throughout this discussion one important factor is left out, and that is the increased efficiency of the man who is producing musical instruments. Why is that factor left out? Not a word has been said to-day from the other side as to the real reason for the better class of piano now being produced in Britain. I claim to know a good piano and a bad piano. So far as that knowledge extends, I still have to get my taste met with a certain German piano, "the Gorszkallman," which I think nothing in the world can beat. This question of the ability of our workmen, whether in the case of a piano or of a gas mantle, is something that has no relation whatever to tariffs. Why, then, should hon. Members be dishonest and go on saying, "Just put on a tariff and you are bound to bring trade"? America with all its tariffs to-day has to depend on countries that give an all-round training to the individual in order that she may get the all-round man who can take all-round charge.
That is why I got up to speak. It was to show, if possible, that while you are playing with the matter by talking of tariffs, you are absolutely neglecting that which alone can make a country great, namely, the efficiency of every individual, no matter in what part of the organisation he is engaged. While you are seeking to put tariffs upon inability and ignorance in this country, you are ceasing to spend the money which ought to be spent on education so as to fit the youth of to-day to become more capable. No matter what tariff you put on any industry, you cannot improve that industry by it. No industry can be improved unless there is improved skill and application of that skill. The methods of construction of the motor car has been spoken of as if it were something peculiar to America or France. Take the body of a motor car, where design is changing almost every month. There you have a special outlet for a specially skilled class of man. Are you taking notice of the necessity of providing that our youth shall become more efficient either as designers or body builders? No, you are simply content to leave that matter alone, and to pocket the profit, and just as you fail to compete with other countries that are more efficient than we are, so you seek to protect yourself and your ignorance in industry by means of a tariff.
8.0 P.M.
Perhaps the Committee will allow me to say a few words on the subject in which I took some part. It is very interesting to come here to-night and hear echoes resounding of a controversy which occupied myself, and some of my hon. Friends who are still in the House, at the time when the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) was Prime Minister, and we were a small band of Free Traders opposing a set of the most ridiculous duties ever placed upon the Statute Book of this country. The prediction I made at the time when Mr. McKenna, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, gave an undertaking that these duties were only of a temporary character, was that, once those duties were imposed, they would continue from year to year, and that he or any succeeding Chancellor of the Exchequer, would find it practically impossible to do away with them. But we never dreamt at that time that the Free Trade Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Liberal Government would shortly take his seat as Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Government whose fiscal views are still rather obscure and have not yet been declared. It would be very interesting, if he were standing at that Box now, to hear his views, and to hear him explain how he advises the maintenance of duties which were imposed, not for revenue, but for one purpose only—to prevent the importation of certain commodities, which were not regarded as essential in this country, by putting on what were looked upon as prohibitive tariffs. They entirely failed in that object, and I always thought they would. The duties are still with us. The Schedule of absurdities is still in our tariff. There are ridiculous duties on musical instruments. Cheap transport, the essential thing for all classes, is made dearer. The price of the Ford car is still enhanced by duties, and yet to-day you want people to get out of cities as much as possible. How, then, can you justify a duty on transport? The right hon. Gentleman argued that it provided some revenue, and they could not give it up. I have heard that argument before, but I cannot say I have ever agreed with it. You cannot defend any duty, however bad its economic effect, however unjust, however unfair to the consumers of the country, on that basis.
Every Chancellor of the Exchequer naturally follows the law of least resistance. It is so much easier to continue a duty in existence, or to increase a duty in existence, than to impose a new one. It reminds one of a camel. You see a camel being loaded. You think it is going to die before anything at all is put on its back, and, as the load progresses, it protests all the time, but its protests become feebler, and when it is loaded, it gets up and walks away. If you ask the camel to kneel down to have more load put on its back, you will have the same trouble over again. The same with the taxpayer. That is why the right hon. Gentleman in his position—and I should be very much tempted to do the same, although I hope I should resist the temptation—prefers to levy this galaxy of duties which seem to please some Tariff Reformers, why, I do not understand, because yau can scarcely call it a very scientific tariff. As an example of the absurdity of tariffs, it is no doubt excellent. I very much regret that the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) has just left the Committee. What I was waiting for, was to hear the Noble Lord get up and defend these duties. It would be very interesting, indeed, to hear his views now. If there were one subject about which he was certain, it was that of Free Trade, and while, no doubt, habit has grown, and these duties have a kind of venerable age which gives them a sort of sanctity that brand-new Tariff Duties would not possess, and he has salved his conscience by leaving the House during the discussion, we shall see how he votes when the Division comes. But it would have been interesting to have heard his statement on this matter.
It is really time that these duties were swept out of the way. If you want to have a tariff system introduced, at any rate have some kind of a system which has got some logic in it, some method in it, some reason in it. But this conglomeration of cinematographs, Jews' harps, cheap cars and clock and watches, the cuckoo clock particularly—the combination of this strange medley, the reason of which I have never yet understood, must have been put together by someone who had a special dislike to being awakened by a cuckoo clock, objected very much to music, and did not want a cheap car because he could afford an expensive one. Surely this Schedule
ought to have been swept out of existence, and I did hope that, as new brooms are supposed to sweep clean, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have seized this opportunity of divesting his Budget of the remnants of these absurdities.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 162.
Division No. 201.] AYES. [8.10 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Doyle, N. Grattan Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Apsley, Lord Ednam, Viscount Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Ellis, R. G. Jackson, Lieut.-Colnnel Hon. F. S. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Astbury, Lieut. Com. Frederick W. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Flanagan, W. H. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Ford, Patrick Johnston King, Captain Henry Douglas Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Forestier-Walker, L. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Barnett, Major Richard W. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lamb, J. Q. Barnston, Major Harry Frece, Sir Walter de Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Furness, G. J. Lorimer, H. D. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Galbraith, J. F. W. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Ganzoni, Sir John Lynn, R. J. Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Garland, C. S. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Blundell, F. N. Gates, Percy McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Maddocks, Henry Brass, Captain W. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Margesson, H. D. R. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gould, James C. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Brittain, Sir Harry Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Mercer, Colonel H. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Greaves-Lord, Walter Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Molson, Major John Elsdale Bruford, R. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Bruton, Sir James Gretton, Colonel John Morden, Col. W. Grant Buckingham, Sir H. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Gwynne, Rupert S. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Murchison, C. K. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Nall, Major Joseph Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Halstead, Major D. Nesbitt, Robert C. Butt, Sir Alfred Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Cassels, J. D. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Cautley, Henry Strother Harrison, F. C. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hawke, John Anthony Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Nield, Sir Herbert Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Chapman, Sir S. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Churchman, Sir Arthur Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Oman, Sir Charles William C. Clayton, G. C. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Cobb, Sir Cyril Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Pease, William Edwin Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Penny, Frederick George Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hood, Sir Joseph Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hopkins, John W. W. Perring, William George Cope, Major William Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Peto, Basil E. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pilditch, Sir Philip Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Houfton, John Plowright Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Privett, F. J. Curzon, Captain Viscount Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hudson, Capt. A. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hughes, Collingwood Reid, D. D. (County Down) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hume, G. H. Remer, J. R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Remnant, Sir James Dawson, Sir Philip Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Rentoul, G. S. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Hurd, Percy A. Reynolds, W. G. W. Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Waring, Major Walter Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Wells, S. R. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Stanley, Lord Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'nW) Steel, Major S. Strang Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Roundell, Colonel R. F. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Winterton, Earl Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Wise, Frederick Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Titchfield, Marquess of Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Yerburgh, R. D. T. Sandon, Lord Tubbs, S. W. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Turton, Edmund Russborough TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Shepperson, E. W. Wallace, Captain E. Skelton, A. N. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
NOES. Adams, D. Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Guthrie, Thomas Maule Phillipps, Vivian Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Ponsonby, Arthur Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Potts, John S. Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Pringle, W. M. R. Attlee, C. R. Harris, Percy A. Richards, R. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hartshorn, Vernon Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barnes, A. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Ritson, J. Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Hayday, Arthur Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Batey, Joseph Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Rose, Frank H. Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Royce, William Stapleton Berkeley, Captain Reginald Herriotts, J. Scrymgeour, E. Bonwick, A. Hill, A. Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hillary, A. E. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Briant, Frank Hinds, John Shinwell, Emanuel Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Brotherton, J. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Sinclair, Sir A. Buchanan, G. Irving, Dan Sitch, Charles H. Buckle, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Burgess, S. John, William (Rhondda, West) Snell, Harry Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Snowden, Philip Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Cape, Thomas Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Charleton, H. C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell Clarke, Sir E. C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kenyon, Barnet Sturrock, J. Leng Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kirkwood, D. Sullivan, J. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Darbishire, C. W. Leach, W. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lee, F. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Tillett, Benjamin Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lowth, T Tout, W. J. Duffy, T. Gavan Lunn, William Trevelyan, C. P. Duncan, C. M'Entee, V. L. Turner, Ben Dunnico, H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wallhead, Richard C. Ede, James Chuter Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Edge, Captain Sir William Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Edmonds, G. Maxton, James Weir, L. M. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Middleton, G. Wheatley, J. Fairbairn, R. R. Millar, J. D. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Falconer, J. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Whiteley, W. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Foot, Isaac Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gardiner, James Mosley, Oswald Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Muir, John W. Wintringham, Margaret Gilbert, James Daniel Murnin, H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gosling, Harry Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wright, W. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Nichol, Robert Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Greenall, T. O'Grady, Captain James Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones.—Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Paling, W. Groves, T. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Grundy, T. W. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
I wish to raise a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Chairman. I understand there was an arrangement that the Question would be put from the Chair so as to enable the Committee to divide on subsequent Amendment. If the Question be put "That the words 'The new imports duties and' stand part of the Clause," such divisions will be impossible.
I agree that if we include the word "and" it will have that effect, but I will put the Question without that word.
Question put accordingly, "That the words 'The new import duties' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 238; Noes, 164.
Division No. 202.] AYES. [8.18 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Ford, Patrick Johnston Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Forestler-Walker, L. Mercer, Colonel H. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Apsley, Lord Frece, Sir Walter de Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Molson, Major John Elsdale Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Furness, G. J. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Galbraith, J. F. W. Morden, Col. W. Grant Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Ganzoni, Sir John Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Garland, C. S. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gates, Percy Murchison, C. K. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Nall, Major Joseph Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nesbitt, Robert C. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Goff, Sir R. Park Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Barnett, Major Richard W. Gould, James C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barnston, Major Harry Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Greaves-Lord, Walter Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Greenwood, William (Stockport) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nield, Sir Herbert Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Gretton, Colonel John Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Blundell, F. N. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Brass, Captain W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by) Pease, William Edwin Brittain, Sir Harry Halstead, Major D. Penny, Frederick George Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Perring, William George Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Harrison, F. C. Peto, Basil E. Bruford, R. Hawke, John Anthony Pilditch, Sir Philip Bruton, Sir James Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Buckingham, Sir H. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Preston, Sir W. R. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Privett, F. J. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rankin, Captain James Stuart Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Butt, Sir Alfred Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Cassels, J. D. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Remer, J. R. Cautley, Henry Strother Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Remnant, Sir James Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hood, Sir Joseph Rentoul, G. S. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hopkins, John W. W. Reynolds, W. G. W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Houfton, John Plowright Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Chapman, Sir S. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Churchman, Sir Arthur Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Clayton, G. C. Hudson, Capt. A. Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'nW) Cobb, Sir Cyril Hughes, Collingwood Roundell, Colonel R. F. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hume, G. H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Cope, Major William Hurd, Percy A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Craik, Rt. Hon. sir Henry Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sandon, Lord Curzon, Captain Viscount Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Shepperson, E. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Skelton, A. N. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Dawson, Sir Philip Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Doyle, N. Grattan King, Captain Henry Douglas Stanley, Lord Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Steel, Major S. Strang Edmondson, Major A. J. Lamb, J. Q. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Ednam, Viscount Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Ellis, R. G. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lorimer, H. D. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Lynn, R. J. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, south) Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Titchfield, Marquess of Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Maddocks, Henry Tubbs, S. W. Flanagan, W. H. Margesson, H. D. R. Turton, Edmund Russborough Wallace, Captain E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Winterton, Earl Yerburgh, R. D. T. Waring, Major Walter Wise, Frederick Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Wells, S. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
NOES. Adams, D. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Phillipps, Vivian Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ponsonby, Arthur Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardie, George D. Potts, John S. Ammon, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Pringle, W. M. R. Attlee, C. R. Hartshorn, Vernon Richards, R. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barnes, A. Hayday, Arthur Ritson, J. Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Batey, Joseph Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Herriotts, J. Rose, Frank H. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hill, A. Royce, William Stapleton Bonwick, A. Hillary, A. E. Scrymgeour, E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hinds, John Sexton, James Briant, Frank Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bromfield, William Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Shinwell, Emanuel Brotherton, J. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Irving, Dan Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Buchanan, G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sinclair, Sir A. Buckle, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sitch, Charles H. Burgess, S. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Snell, Harry Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snowden, Philip Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Cape, Thomas Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Charleton, H. C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Stephen, Campbell Clarke, Sir E. C. Kenyon, Barnet Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kirkwood, D. Sturrock, J. Leng Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lawson, John James Sullivan, J. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Leach, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Darbishire, C. W. Lee, F. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lowth, T. Tillett, Benjamin Duffy, T. Gavan Lunn, William Tout, W. J. Duncan, C. M'Entee, V. L. Trevelyan, C. P. Dunnico, H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Turner, Ben Ede, James Chuter Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Wallhead, Richard C. Edge, Captain Sir William Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Edmonds, G. Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Middleton, G. Weir, L. M. Fairbairn, R. R. Millar, J. D. Wheatley, J. Falconer, J. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W. Foot, Isaac Mosley, Oswald Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Muir, John W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gilbert, James Daniel Murnin, H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gosling, Harry Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wintringham, Margaret Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Nichol, Robert Wright, W. Greenall, T. Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) O'Grady, Captain James Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Oliver, George Harold Groves, T. Paling, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones.—Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones. Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
I beg to move, after the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words:
"except the duties on motor care, including motor bicycles and motor tricycles, and on accessories and component parts of motor cars, motor bicycles and motor tricycles other than tyres."
Before the Question is put, I wish to remind the Committee that during the last Debate a question was put time and again with regard to the last three words of this Amendment, and was never answered by the Government. I do not wish, as there has already been a, general Debate, to enter upon any discussion on the merits of any of the articles included in this Amendment, but I want to point out that the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon), the Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood), and another hon. and gallant Member on the bench immediately behind Ministers, join in putting a question to the Financial Secretary. No Member of the Government even deigned to offer a reply. We had not only the Financial Secretary speaking, but also the President of the Board of Trade, and both these right hon. Gentlemen were more concerned with the financial purity and consistency of the prospective Chancellor of the Exchequer than with giving a clear and definite answer to this question.
I think the hon. Member is really ignoring the understanding which was arrived at earlier. Although it was suggested by myself that a short discussion might take place on the subsequent Amendments, I quite understood that the speeches would be confined to the Movers of the Amendments.
My complaint is that the Closure was moved when several hon. Members here were anxious to take part in the Debate, and, seeing that there was a point of substance that ought to have been dealt with, I think I am entitled to press that point now. I am merely asking that there should be an answer from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the question why the protection which is given to other accessories is not given to tyres? I think that is a reasonable question to put, and I have only risen to elicit that information.
The answer to the question is that the Government do not propose at the present moment to extend these duties at all, either in the case of motor cars or of musical instruments.
It certainly was not my intention to detain the Committee at any length, if at all, but as the Closure was moved at a point in the Debate when many hon. Members rose to speak, I must confess, with all respect for hon. Members opposite, that I make not the slightest apology for acting within my rights in continuing this Debate. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a breach of faith!"] The understanding was that a full discussion would be taken on the first Amendment and that the Government would then be allowed to take the remain- ing Amendments without a discussion, but as the Government saw fit, quite early in the Debate, to move the Closure when several hon. Members desired to continue the discussion, I submit that their action naturally abrogated the understanding which had been arrived at, and we are therefore perfectly at liberty to discuss this Amendment. I will not detain the Committee long.
The hon. Gentleman has detained the Committee quite long enough.
I consider that the understanding has been abrogated by the Government in moving the Closure.
What is the Amendment before the Committee? Is the hon. Member speaking to it?
I do not think that the speech which the hon. Member is making now is at all relevant to the Amendment.
I was preparing to speak on the Amendment when I was interrupted by an hon. Member opposite, who made against me a charge of breach of faith. As a matter of personal explanation, I was trying to answer that charge, and was pointing out that the Government, by their action in moving the Closure, had abrogated any understanding which had been arrived at. I, therefore, feel myself perfectly at liberty to continue this discussion. I certainly shall not intrude on ground that has been already covered. I shall not try to obtain from the President of the Board of Trade a still further definition of the opinion of Mr. McKenna. Mr. McKenna will either be moved to enter the House of Commons more quickly, in order that he may speak for himself, or he will be alarmed at the prospect of having his opinions expounded and his speeches made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 160.
Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
Division No. 203.] AYES. [8.37 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Galbraith, J. F. W. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Ganzoni, Sir John Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Garland, C. S. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Gates, Percy Nield, Sir Herbert Apsley, Lord Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Oman, Sir Charles William C. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Goff, Sir R. Park Parker, Owen (Kettering) Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Gould, James C. Pease, William Edwin Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Penny, Frederick George Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Greaves-Lord, Walter Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Greenwood, William (Stockport) Perring, William George Balfour, George (Hampstead) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Peto, Basil E. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Gretton, Colonel John Pilditch, Sir Philip Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Gwynne, Rupert S. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Barnett, Major Richard W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Preston, Sir W. R. Barnston, Major Harry Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'pl, W. D'by) Privett, F. J. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Halstead, Major D. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harrison, F. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Hawke, John Anthony Remer, J. R. Blundell, F. N. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Remnant, Sir James Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Rentoul, G. S. Brass, Captain W. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Reynolds, W. G. W. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Brittain, Sir Harry Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Bruford, R. Hohler, Gerald Fitzro Robertson- Despencer, Major (Isl'gf'n W) Bruton, Sir James Hood, Sir Joseph Roundell Colonel R. F. Buckingham, Sir H. Hopkins, John W. W. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Buckley, Lieut-Colonel A. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Houfton, John Plowright Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butt, Sir Alfred Hudson, Capt. A. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Cassels, J. D. Hughes, Collingwood Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Cautley, Henry Strother Hume, G. H. Sandon, Lord Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Shepperson, E. W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hurd, Percy A. Skelton, A. N. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Chapman, Sir S. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) Churchman, Sir Arthur Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Clayton, G. C. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Stanley, Lord Cobb, Sir Cyril James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Steel, Major S. Strang Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Conway, Sir W. Martin Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cope, Major William Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) King, Captain Henry Douglas Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Titchfield, Marquess of Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Lamb, J. Q. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Tubbs, S. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Turton, Edmund Russborough Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lorimer, H. D. Wallace, Captain E. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lynn, R. J. Waring, Major Walter Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Dawson, Sir Philip McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Doyle, N. Grattan Maddocks, Henry Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wells, S. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Manville, Edward Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Ednam, Viscount Margesson, H. D. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ellis, R. G. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Winterton, Earl Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Mercer, Colonel H. Wise, Frederick Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Wolmer, Viscount Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Molson, Major John Elsdale Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Flanagan, W. H. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Ford, Patrick Johnston Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Forestier-Walkar, L. Murchison, C. K. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Nail, Major Joseph Frece, Sir Walter de Nesbitt, Robert C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Furness, G. J. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson
NOES. Adams, D. Hall, F. (York, W. B, Normanton) parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Phillipps, Vivian Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harris, Percy A. Ponsonby, Arthur Ammon, Charles George Hartshorn, Vernon Potts, John S. Attlee, C. R. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Pringle, W. M. R. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Richards, R. Barnes, A. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Ritson, J. Batey, Joseph Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Herriotts, J. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Bonwick, A. Hill, A. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hillary, A. E. Rose, Frank H. Briant, Frank Hinds, John Royce, William Stapleton Bromfield, William Hirst, G. H. Scrymgeour, E. Brotherton, J. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Sexton, James Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Irving, Dan Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Buchanan, G. Jarrett, G. W. S. Shinwell, Emanuel Buckle, J. Jenkins, w. (Glamorgan, Neath) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Burgess, S. John, William (Rhondda, West) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Sitch, Charles H. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snell, Harry Cape, Thomas Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Philip Charleton, H. C. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Clarke, Sir E. C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Stephen, Campbell Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kenyon, Barnet Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirkwood, D. Sturrock, J. Leng Darbishire, C. W. Lawson, John James Sullivan, J. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Leach, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Duffy, T. Gavan Lowth, T. Tillett, Benjamin Duncan, C. Lunn, William Tout, W. J. Dunnico, H. M'Entee, V. L. Trevelyan, C. P. Ede, James Chuter Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Turner, Ben Edge, Captain Sir William Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Wallhead, Richard C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Falconer, J. Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Middleton, G. Weir, L. M. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Millar, J. D. Wheatley, J. Gilbert, James Daniel Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gosling, Harry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Mosley, Oswald Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Muir, John W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Greenall, T. Murnin, H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wintringham, Margaret Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Nichol, Robert Wright, W. Groves, T. O'Grady, Captain James Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Paling, W. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Isaac Foot and Mr. Fairbairn.—Mr. Isaac Foot and Mr. Fairbairn.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 237.
Division No. 204.] AYES. [8.46 p.m. Adams, D. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Gilbert, James Daniel Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cape, Thomas Gosling, Harry Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Chappie, W. A. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Attlee, C. R. Charleton, H. C. Gray, Frank (Oxford) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Clarke, Sir E. C. Greenall, T. Barnes, A. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Batey, Joseph Darbishire, C. W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Groves, T. Bonwick, A. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grundy, T. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Duffy, T. Gavan Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Briant, Frank Duncan, C. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Bromfield, William Dunnico, H. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Brotherton, J. Ede, James Chuter Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Edge, Captain Sir William Hardie, George D. Buchanan, G. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty) Harris, Percy A. Buckle, J. Fairbairn, R. R. Hartshorn, Vernon Burgess, S. Falconer, J. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart), Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Foot, Isaac Hayday, Arthur Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Mosley, Oswald Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Muir, John W. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murnin, H. Stephen, Campbell Herriotts, J. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Hill, A. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sturrock, J. Leng Hillary, A. E. Nichol, Robert Sullivan, J. Hinds, John O'Grady, Captain James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Hirst, G. H. Oliver, George Harold Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Paling, W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Irving, Dan Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Tillett, Benjamin Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Tout, W. J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Trevelyan, C. P. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Phillipps, Vivian Turner, Ben Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ponsonby, Arthur Wallhead, Richard C. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Potts, John s. Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Pringle, W. M. R. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Richards, R. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Ritson, J. Weir, L. M. Kenyon, Barnet Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Wheatley, J. Kirkwood, D. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Lawson, John James Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Whiteley, W. Leach, W. Rose, Frank H. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Lee, F. Royce, William Stapleton Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Scrymgeour, E. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Lowth, T. Sexton, James Wintringhan, Margaret M'Entee, V. L. Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Shinwell, Emanuel Wright, W. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Maxton, James Sitch, Charles H. Middleton, G. Smith, T. (Pontefract) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn. Millar, J. D. Snell, Harry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Snowden, Philip
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Halstead, Major D. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Apsley, Lord Cope, Major William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Harrison, F. C. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hawke, John Anthony Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Curzon, Captain Viscount Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Banbury, Rt. Hon sir Frederick G. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Barnett, Major Richard W. Dawson, Sir Philip Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Barnston, Major Harry Doyle, N. Grattan Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hood, Sir Joseph Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hopkins, John W. W. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Edmondson, Major A. J. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chlchester) Ednam, Viscount Houfton, John Plowright Blundell, F. N. Ellis, R. G. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Brass, Captain W. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hudson, Capt. A. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Hughes, Collingwood Brittain, Sir Harry Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Hume, G. H. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Flanagan, W. H. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Brown, J. w. (Middlesbrough, E.) Ford, Patrick Johnston Hurd, Percy A. Bruford, R. Forestier-Walker, L. Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Bruton, Sir James Fraser, Major Sir Keith Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Buckingham, Sir H. Frece, Sir Walter de Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Furness, G. J. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Galbraith, J. F. W. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Ganzoni, Sir John Jarrett, G. W. S. Butt, Sir Alfred Garland, C. S. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Cassels, J. D. Gates, Percy Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Cautley, Henry Strother Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Goff, Sir R. Park Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Gould, James C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Greaves-Lord, Walter Lamb, J. Q. Chapman, Sir S. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Churchman, Sir Arthur Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Clayton, G. C. Gretton, Colonel John Lorimer, H. D. Cobb, Sir Cyril Gwynne, Rupert S. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Lynn, R. J. Pilditch, Sir Philip Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Stanley, Lord McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Preston, Sir W. R. Steel, Major S. Strang Maddocks, Henry Privett, F. J. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Rankin, Captain James Stuart Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Manville, Edward Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Margesson, H. D. R. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Mercer, Colonel H. Remer, J. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Remnant, Sir James Titchfield, Marquess of Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Rentoul, G. S. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Molson, Major John Elsdale Reynolds, W. G. W. Tubbs, S. W Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Turton, Edmund Russborough Morden, Col. W. Grant Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Wallace, Captain E. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Waring, Major Walter Murchison, C. K. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Nall, Major Joseph Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'n W) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Nesbitt, Robert C. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wells, S. R. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Winterton, Earl Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wise, Frederick Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wolmer, Viscount Nield, Sir Herbert Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sandon, Lord Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Shepperson, E. W. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Pease, William Edwin Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Penny, Frederick George Skelton, A. N. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Perring, William George Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Peto, Basil E. Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
I beg to move, after the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words
"except the duties on musical instruments, including gramophones, pianolas, and other similar instruments, and on accessories and component parts of musical instruments and
records and other means of reproducing music."
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 236.
Division No. 205.] AYES. [8.55 p.m. Adams, D. Fairbalrn, R. R. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Falconer, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Foot, Isaac Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Ammon, Charles George Gilbert, James Daniel Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Attlee, C. R. Gosling, Harry Kenyon, Barnet Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Kirkwood, D. Barnes, A. Gray, Frank (Oxford) Lawson, John James Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Greenall, T. Leach, W. Batey, Joseph Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lee, F. Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Bonwick, A. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lowth, T. Bewerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Groves, T. Lunn, William Briant, Frank Grundy, T. W. M'Entee, V. L. Bromfield, William Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Brotherton, J. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Buchanan, G. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Maxton, James Buckle, J. Hardie, George D. Middleton, G. Burgess, S. Harney, E. A. Millar, J. D. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Harris, Percy A. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hartshorn, Vernon Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Cape, Thomas Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Mosley, Oswald Chapple, W. A. Hayday, Arthur Muir, John W. Charleton, H. C. Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Murnin, H. Clarke, Sir E. C. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Herriotts, J. Nichol, Robert Darbishire, C. W. Hill, A. Oliver, George Harold Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hillary, A. E. Paling, W. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hinds, John Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Duffy, T. Gavan Hirst, G. H. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Duncan, C. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Phillipps, Vivian Dunnico, H. Irving, Dan Ponsonby, Arthur Tide, James Chuter Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Potts, John S. Edge, Captain Sir William John, William (Rhondda, West) Pringle, W. M. R. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Richards, R. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Snowden, Philip Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Ritson, J. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Weir, L. M. Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wheatley, J. Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Stephen, Campbell White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Rose, Frank H. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Whiteley, W. Royce, William Stapleton Sullivan, J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Scrymgeour, E. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Sexton, James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Wintringham, Margaret Shinwell, Emanuel Tillett, Benjamin Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Short, Alfred (wednesbury) Tout, W. J. Wright, W. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Turner, Ben Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Sitch, Charles H. Wallhead, Richard C. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Morgan Jones.—Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Morgan Jones. Snell, Harry Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Ednam, Viscount Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Ellis, R. G. King, Captain Henry Douglas Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Lamb, J. Q. Apsley, Lord Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lorimer, H. D. Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Flanagan, W. H. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Ford, Patrick Johnston Lynn, R. J. Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Forestier-Walker, L. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fraser, Major Sir Keith McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Maddocks, Henry Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Furness, G. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Galbraith, J. F. W. Manville, Edward Barnett, Major Richard W. Ganzoni, Sir John Margesson, H. D. R. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Garland, C. S. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gates, Percy Mercer, Colonel H. Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Goff, Sir R. Park Molson, Major John Elsdale Blundell, F. N. Gould, James C. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Morden, Col. W. Grant Brass, Captain W. Greaves-Lord, Walter Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Greenwood, William (Stockport) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Brittain, Sir Harry Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Murchison, C. K. Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Gretton, Colonel John Nail, Major Joseph Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Gwynne, Rupert S. Nesbitt, Robert C. Bruford, R. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Bruton, Sir James Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p l, W. D'by) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Buckingham, Sir H. Halstead, Major D. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Nicholson. Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Harrison, F. C. Nield, Sir Herbert Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Hawke, John Anthony Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Butt, Sir Alfred Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Cassels, J. D. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Cautley, Henry Strother Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pease, William Edwin Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Penny, Frederick George Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Perring, William George Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Pilditch, Sir Philip Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Chapman, Sir S. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Preston, Sir W. R. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hood, Sir Joseph Privett, F. J. Clayton, G. C. Hopkins, John W. W. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Cobb, Sir Cyril Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rawson, Lleut.-Com. A. C. Cohen, Major J. Brunei Houfton, John Plowright Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Remer, J. R. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hudson, Capt. A. Remnant, Sir James Cope, Major William Hughes, Collingwood Rentoul, G. S. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hume, G. H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hunter-Westor Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hurd, Percy A. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesail) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'n W) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Dawson, Sir Philip Jarrett, G. W. S. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Doyle, N. Grattan Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Samuel, A. M (Surrey, Farnham) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Edmondson, Major A. J. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Sandon, Lord Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.) Shepperson, E. W. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Titchfield, Marquess of Winterton, Earl Skelton, A. N. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wise, Frederick Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Tubbs, S. W Wolmer, Viscount Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Turton, Edmund Russborough Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Wallace, Captain E. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Stanley, Lord Waring, Major Walter Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Steel, Major S. Strang Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Wells, S. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Colonel Gibbs and Major Barnston.—Colonel Gibbs and Major Barnston.
On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrew (Mr. Nichol), I beg to move, after the word "duties," to insert the words
"except the duties on clocks and watches and component parts of clocks and watches."
I do not intend to delay the Committee in coming to a decision on this Amendment, but there are two reasons why I intervene. The first is, that during the general discussion the special position of clocks and watches and the component parts of clocks and watches was never treated. The whole of the general discussion on the McKenna duties went on the basis that these duties applied to luxury articles alone. In these circumstances watches and clocks were overlooked. They are really articles of necessity to the working class of this country. The working-class household requires a clock, and every workman requires a watch. In the existing conditions they have to be content with the very cheapest of both. In these circumstances it is necessary to protest against the price of these cheap watches and clocks being raised on the working classes by 33⅓ per cent. as a result of this duty, and it is of importance to have it made clear to the constituents of hon. Members opposite that their representatives are voting to-night to increase the price of the working-man's watch and clock by 33⅓ per cent. That is a fact which the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood) admitted in his speech. He said that cheapness is not everything, and I agree, but it is a very important thing at present, while the wages are so low, that those affected by all these reductions in wages should receive articles of general consumption at the lowest possible price. Therefore, I submit that this Amendment is on a different footing from any other Amendments to this Clause. It is different from the Amendment as to motor-cars, which the hon. Member opposite makes with such success and profit. It is different from the Amendment as to musical instruments—unfortunately I do not see anybody who makes them. I am talking about the metal watch at about 5s. or even 3s. 6d. and the alarm clock at about the same price, which are increased by 33 ⅓ per cent. On these grounds we are bound to challenge a Division on this Amendment so that hon. Members who support these iniquitous duties may have the utmost publicity given to their actions.
This Amendment is entitled to support on the ground that it is a commercial proposition. If we have not alarm clocks at a very cheap rate many workpeople will be unable to be in time for their work in the morning. It is essential for factory workers to be wakened by alarm clocks. These people have no butlers or grooms to wake them. Therefore on the ground of the commercial necessities of our Kingdom workpeople should not be debarred by this duty from having the clocks which they require.
rose ——
May I make an appeal to the hon. Member. The party opposite made an arrangement with us. I am very sorry that the hon. Member and his hon. Friend were not called in the previous Debate. I have suffered from that myself many times in previous years, and I would appeal to the hon. Member not to speak on this occasion but to let us have a Division.
I respond to the appeal which has been made, but I hope that the Government may realise that, while the Closure may be a convenient weapon at times, it may also at times be an inconvenient weapon.
I have never broken a Parliamentary arrangement, but I submit that when arrangements are made there is an understanding that the general sense of the House should be observed. I observed that when the Closure was moved the word was passed along to all the Members who had been rising on the other side to stop talking. This was done by an hon. Member whom I do not desire to mention. It was obvious that several hon. Members on this side, and on the other side, desired to intervene, and that the bringing of the Debate to an end was not due to the spontaneous desire of Members on the other side but to the order of the Whips. In these circumstances I do not regard that as carrying out an arrangement in the spirit in which such an arrangement should be carried out.
What arrangement?
I understood that there was an arrangement that these Amendments should not be spoken to at all. The assumption was that the general argument had been dealt with. I do not intend to go into the question of Protection or Free Trade, and still less into the declaration of Mr. McKenna which is irrelevant. I want to discuss these Amendments on their merits, but we are denied that opportunity. Several other Members are equally shut out. On these grounds I do not think that the arrangement was fairly carried out, but, as the right hon. Gentleman makes an appeal, I will respond to it.
I have no desire to detain the Committee, and I am going to respond to the right hon. Gentleman's appeal, but there appears to have been some misunderstanding with regard to the alleged arrangement. So far as I know, the only arrangement with which this Committee is familiar arises from the statement, I think made by you, Captain Fitzroy, or by Mr. Hope, with regard to taking the general discussion on the Amendment which was moved by myself. But I think that it was said, by whoever occupied the Chair at the time, that there might be short discussions on the other Amendment. Some of us have been waiting to direct attention to the following Amendment which dealt with cinematograph films, because we regard that as a question entirely apart from the general proposition which the Committee has been considering. If it is felt by the Committee that all interests are satisfied, and that no advantage is to be derived from any sustained discussion on these matters, then I will not stand in the way of the right hon. Gentleman, but if arrangements are to be entered into they ought to be made perfectly clear to those who are committed by such arrangements. Otherwise we cannot be expected to yield to appeals made from the Treasury Bench and by others.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 160; Noes, 241.
Division No. 206.] AYES. [9.15 p.m. Adams, D. Darbishire, C. W. Hardie, George D. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Harney, E. A. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Harris, Percy A. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hartshorn, Vernon Attlee, C. R. Duffy, T. Gavan Hastings, Patrick Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Duncan, C. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Barnes, A. Dunnico, H. Hayday, Arthur Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Ede, James Chuter Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Batey, Joseph Edge, Captain Sir William Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Bonwick, A. Fairbairn, R. R. Herriotts, J. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Falconer, J. Hill, A. Briant, Frank Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Hillary, A. E. Bromfield, William Foot, Isaac Hirst, G. H. Brotherton, J. Gilbert, James Daniel Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gosling, Harry Irving, Dan Buchanan, G. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Buckle, J. Gray, Frank (Oxford) John, William (Rhondda, West) Burgess, S. Greenall, T. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Cape, Thomas Groves, T. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Chappie, W. A. Grundy, T. W. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Charleton, H. C. Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Clarke, Sir E. C. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Kenyon, Barnet Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Kirkwood, D. Cowan, D. M (Scottish Universities) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Lawson, John James Leach, W. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Lee, F. Phillipps, Vivian Sullivan, J. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Ponsonby, Arthur Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Lowth, T. Potts, John S. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Lunn, William Pringle, W. M. R. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) M'Entee, V. L. Rae, Sir Henry N. Tillett, Benjamin Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Richards, R. Tout, W. J. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Trevelyan, C. P. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Ritson, J. Turner, Ben Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Wallhead, Richard C. Maxton, James Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Middleton, G. Rose, Frank H. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Millar, J. D. Royce, William Stapleton Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Scrymgeour, E. Weir, L. M. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Sexton, James Wheatley, J. Mosley, Oswald Shaw, Thomas (Preston) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Muir, John W. Shinwell, Emanuel Whiteley, W. Murnin, H. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Nichol, Robert Smith, T. (Pontefract) Wintringham, Margaret O'Grady, Captain James Snell, Harry Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Oliver, George Harold Snowden, Philip Wright, W. Paling, W. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Stephen, Campbell TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Robinson and Mr. Ammon.—Mr. Robinson and Mr. Ammon.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hood, Sir Joseph Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hopkins, John W. W. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Apsley, Lord Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Houfton, John Plowright Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Dawson, Sir Philip Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Doyle, N. Grattan Hudson, Capt. A. Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hughes, Collingwood Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Edmondson, Major A. J. Hume, G. H. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Ednam, Viscount Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Balfour, George (Hampstead) Ellis, R. G. Hurd, Percy A. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Barnett, Major Richard W. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Barnston, Major Harry Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Bell, Lieut-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Fawkes, Major F. H. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Birchall, Major J. Dearman Flanagan, W. H. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Ford, Patrick Johnston Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Blades, Sir George Rowland Forestier-Walker, L. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Blundell, F. N. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. King, Captain Henry Douglas Brass, Captain W. Furness, G. J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Galbraith, J. F. W. Lamb, J. Q. Brittain, Sir Harry Ganzoni, Sir John Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Garland, C. S. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Gates, Percy Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Lorimer, H. D. Bruford, R. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Bruton, Sir James Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lynn, R. J. Buckingham, Sir H. Goff, Sir R. Park Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Gould, James C. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Maddocks, Henry Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Greaves-Lord, Walter Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Manville, Edward Butt, Sir Alfred Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Margesson, H. D. R. Cassels, J. D. Gretton, Colonel John Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Cautley, Henry Strother Gwynne, Rupert S. Mercer, Colonel H. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R (Hitchin) Halstead, Major D. Molson, Major John Elsdale Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morden, Col. W. Grant Chapman, Sir S. Harrison, F. C. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Churchman, Sir Arthur Hawke, John Anthony Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Clayton, G. C. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Murchison, C. K. Cobb, Sir Cyril Henn, Sir Sydney H. Nail, Major Joseph Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Nesbitt, Robert C. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Conway, Sir W. Martin Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Nield, Sir Herbert Robertson-Despencer, Major(l sl'gt'nW) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Titchfield, Marquess of Parker, Owen (Kettering) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Pease, William Edwin Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tubbs, S. W. Penny, Frederick George Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Turton, Edmund Russborough Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wallace, Captain E. Perring, William George Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Peto, Basil E. Sandon, Lord Waring, Major Walter Pilditch, Sir Philip Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Shepperson, E. W. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Preston, Sir W. R. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Wells, S. R. Privett, F. J. Skelton, A. N. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.> Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Winterton, Earl Reid, D. D. (County Down) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Wise, Frederick Remer, J. R. Stanley, Lord Wolmer, Viscount Remnant, Sir James Steel, Major S. Strang Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Rentoul, G. S. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Reynolds, W. G. W. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Yerburgh, R. D. T. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Major Cope and Colonel Roundell.—Major Cope and Colonel Roundell.
The two following Amendments are practically to the game effect, and I do not mind which of them is taken.
I beg to move, after the word "duties" ["The new import duties"], to insert the words
When one considers the amount of money that comes in as revenue to the Government, a quarter of a million pounds is something which should not be, and I think cannot be, looked upon as of such great importance as to warrant the continuation of this tax. I think this duty was imposed for very much the same purpose as the other duties which have been debated earlier this afternoon, namely, in order to obtain revenue for the Government, and to meet the difficult financial situation which had arisen out of the Great War. When you find that in actual operation a tax, which was believed to be likely to confer a great benefit upon this country because of the amount of money it would raise, only realises such a small amount as a quarter of a million pounds, then it is not worth while continuing it. I should imagine it costs almost as much to collect this duty as the Government is receiving in revenue. Taking the increase in the Revenue from the first year in which the duty was imposed—1916—we find that in that year the sum raised was £184,000. In 1918, the amount dropped to £146,000; in 1919, it was £170,000; in the following year, it was £209,000; in 1921, it was £213,000; and in 1922, £254,000.
I submit that the Solicitor-General will be hard put to it to find an argument to justify the continuance of this tax. I hope he will supply the figures for this year, so that we may know whether the sum realised shows any tangible increase over the financial year 1921–22, because, unless it does so, the hon. and learned Gentleman cannot find any such argument. I suggest that the Government might meet the situation that is presently prevailing in the picture-house world, and in cinema theatres generally, and remove this duty. I do not know that there is a single film-producing company in this country which has benefited by this duty, if that were the object in imposing it. If the reason for its imposition was to encourage the production of British films, then that object has not actually been gained. I think a very much larger percentage of foreign films than of British films are being exhibited in this country. Even those who are connected with the film industry point out very clearly that, so far as this country is concerned, the atmosphere is against the production of what might be called clear pictures. They cannot take pictures in the open air in this country to the same extent as they can, say, in America. Consequently, if the object has been the protection of an infant industry, which the Government desire to see continued and built up in this country, I think the Committee are entitled to know to what extent he imposition of the tax has been justified in that direction, and to what extent the film-producing industry here has benefited, so far as increasing the number of films produced and the sale of those films in this country and their exportation abroad is concerned.
Another thing which has to be taken into consideration is the large number of picture-houses in this country which are presently closed—I do not say closed altogether—because of this particular duty. Undoubtedly, this duty has had a certain effect, at least upon some of the smaller picture-houses, which cannot afford to carry on in the present circumstances owing to the accumulation of expenses which they have been bound to meet during the past two years. The depreciation in trade, this duty, the Entertainments Duty, and the cumulative expense, have put quite a large number of cinema-houses out of business. They stand closed to-day, and the proprietors or the companies which own them have found it impossible to carry on because of the burdens which have been placed on that particular pleasure-giving industry. I suggest, therefore, that if the Solicitor-General be going to reply, that he will inform the Committee that the Government, because of the small sum which is realised, are prepared to accept this Amendment and repeal the duty upon imported films. If, however, the Government are going to justify the continuation of this duty, I think the Committee are entitled to hear from the hon. and learned Gentleman, or some other Minister, a justification for their action. That justification must either be given on the ground that the duty brings in a sufficient amount of revenue to warrant its continuation, or that it promotes sufficient good to the industry in this country.
In spite of the very clear and cogent speeches that have been delivered from this side, upon the various taxes we have been considering, we have up to now obtained no concession whatever. Now, at this critical moment, when we are discussing a very important duty upon films, which have a very big relation to the social life and habits of our people, we find that the representatives of the Treasury are missing. I am hopeful, now that the Solicitor-General has taken hold of the reins, that we shall be able to obtain some concession in this matter. Up to now the policy has been entirely negative, and, though I cannot speak with any authority as to what the Government propose to do in connection with the Entertainments Duty, unless there is going to be either the abolition or the reduction of that duty, I think we are entitled to expect some pronouncement from the hon. and learned Gentleman which will indicate that the Government are willing to make some concession in so far as the duties on films are concerned.
I have always been interested, and have played an active part, in the promotion of social services, and I have noticed during the last few years the moral and intellectual value of the cinema so far as our people are concerned, and also, of course, that it is a very admirable entertainment for the benefit of the people. I have noticed a change, and a growing change, for the better in consequence of the cinema in the habits of our people. My mind goes back a few years to the days before the cinema came in, when the mothers were compelled to remain at home, as there were no entertainments except at excessive prices, and frequently they remained at home while their husbands, having finished work, went out by themselves, but owing to the inception of the cinema, whatever may be said regarding some of the things that are presented—and I know that everything is not just as it might be—I believe that, generally speaking, it has had a good effect, and we now see in our great provincial towns and cities mothers and husbands going out together in the evening, spending a few hours at the cinema, and receiving not merely enjoyment but, in many cases, instruction as well. Indeed, there is a great improvement in the moral outlook and the moral habits of our people in consequence.
Then, again, the children are provided with a reasonable entertainment, their minds are refreshed with views of bird life, animal life, and things of that character, which I think is all to the advantage of the community. [An HON. MEMBER: "They learn all about love."] They cannot learn about anything better, and if we had a little more love in the human atmosphere, our community would be all the better for it. It is, therefore, essential, when we have an institution which is serving an excellent purpose, which is doing useful work, which is encouraging the good habits of our people, which is improving the outlook of our people—acquainting them with a wider vision and filling their minds with knowledge of things of which they would otherwise be unable to learn, it is the bounden duty of this Committee to do everything it possibly can to further the trade and prosperity of this great industry. As a result of extensive trade depression, as a result of protracted unemployment, I find that cinemas are unable to carry on, and I learned the other day, in my own constituency, that one was closing down, throwing out the few people it employed and once again limiting the possibilities of the workers and their families having a little enjoyment at cheap and rational prices. This duty increases—and no one can deny it—the difficulties in the way of cinema existence and to the extent that it does that, especially if the extent be injurious by the closing down of cinemas, and the harmful effect be not commensurate or be not met by the volume of revenue received from the duty, then the duty is to be condemned, as we condemn it to-night.
I think I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean), who has got all the characteristics, if I may say so, of a cinema artist, say that the income derived from this duty was somewhere in the neighbourhood of £254,304. That is a very small amount of money to be derived from this duty in this great country, which is spending millions in all kinds of ways, and when we learn that cinemas are closing down here and there, and workers are being thrown out of employment, and their people and their children are being penalised, I say, Can we justify a duty of this character? The time has arrived, as I have said before in the course of these Debates, when we, the Opposition, seeing that we are being met with a negative policy in every direction, must be more severe in our opposition. This understanding is all right in its way, but it cannot prevent a Member of the Committee from exercising his rights on behalf of his constituents, and unless the Government, through the Solicitor-General, from whom I am expecting something good on this question, are prepared to make, some concession on this very important matter, which is so closely associated with the social life of the community, as far as I am concerned, I shall make one in joining in a more vigorous attack upon the Government and in prolonging these proceedings.
Further, there is the future of this industry to consider. In my opinion, we are upon the threshold only of the development of this industry. I want to see the cinema operating not merely as it does to-day in our towns and cities, but I want to see it applied in an educational sense. I want our education committees to take hold of the cinema and to use it for the education of our children, and I feel that it could be done with interest and instruction to the children. Unless he is going to make that concession, if he proposes to continue to stand by this duty, it means that the cost of these films will be increased to the detriment of our people, and, particularly, as it always is, to the working classes. As a final word, I would appeal to the hon. and learned Gentleman to reply. Let us learn that upon this matter he is going to make a concession, one that will indicate the willingness of the Government to realise not merely the importance of this cinema industry, but also the importance that can be attached to the cinema from the moral and educational point of view.
There are one or two questions to which answers are asked. The first is, What is the yield of this duty in the last financial year? The reply is a little more than the year before—£271,000. The hon. Gentleman who asked this question made a statement which perhaps he intended in the form of a question as to the expense involved in collecting this duty. The statement was not accurate, that the amount of the expense must almost have equalled the amount of the tax collected. As a matter of fact, I am told that the cost of collecting the duty is almost negligible. Certainly it is very, very far short of any amount which will enable anybody to say that the tax is not worth collecting. I would ask hon. Members who say that £271,000 is a very small sum what they would say if the Government were paying no attention to an expenditure which reached that figure? If the Government proposed to spend £271,000 hon. Members, I think, would say that that amount should be taken care of. Whether it is a question of duty, or whatever it may be, we ought to take care of such an amount.
The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) and the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Short) have made each a speech mutually destructive. The first hon. Member raised the familiar and attractive argument that the proposed reduction is but a little one, that we ought to remit it, while the other hon. Member, so far as I could gather from his eloquent eulogy of the trade, suggested that all would be lovely in the garden if it were not for the duty. It is of such tremendous importance that the industry should not be slowly ruined throughout the country, so he suggested. I must leave the hon. Members to compose their differences, for it would appear the amount is unimportant on the one hand, and is very serious on the other.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury was dealing not only with this tax upon cinema films but also with the Entertainments Duty as well.
I did not credit the hon. Member for Wednesbury with so disorderly a speech as now attributed to him. I assumed he was addressing himself to the Amendment with which only I am concerned. The hon. Member for Wednesbury seemed alternately to wheedle and to threaten me for some remission, some concession. I am afraid I must remain indifferent to both aspects, for the duty is part of the general duties under this head and must stand or fall with the rest. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment has really given no reason at all for the remission, except that the tax is a very small one, and falls hardly upon the industry. It is a small tax in relation to the enormous sums spent on this industry. I think £271,000 is very small. I can say that the British producer of films would view the remission of this duty with regret so far as the advantage which is given to films undertaken or organised in the United Kingdom and produced by companies composed of persons domiciled in the United Kingdom is concerned. So far as these are concerned, it is all to the advantage of the British producers. It may be, as hon. Members say, that British producers cannot produce very much larger quantities here. It may be that the British films industry has not largely increased.
Is it not the case that two British companies have closed down?
I do not know; I have not the information here. Certainly, having regard to the fact that this is part and parcel of the same duties that we have been discussing this evening, I am not able to give way.
I should have thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman would attempt to justify the imposition of these duties. Instead, he has concentrated upon certain discrepancies between the arguments which have been adduced. He has not attempted to justify any tax or duty which the Government seek to impose at this time. All that he has done has been to argue that since this forms part of the larger and wider McKenna duties it is impossible to grant a remission of this tax. I would remind him that the argument in reference to the cinema film duty is very much different to that of the im- position of the duty on motor cars and motor car accessories. In the one case we have had arguments adduced by hon. Members on the opposite benches which, as the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, have been Protectionist and of a Tariff Reform character. Surely it is not argued in this case that there is any Protectionist justification for a continuance of this particular duty? Since no attempt has been made to justify its continuance on the ground that substantial revenue is derived, then I submit that no case has been made out at all.
I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to display some more logic than he has done in considering this matter. We are here being asked to tax—because that is exactly what it is—a form of entertainment which, rightly or wrongly, certain people in the community enjoy. If you are going to tax forms of entertainment then you must follow that principle out in logical sequence, and tax all foreign imports of an entertainment character. If you propose to tax films which demonstrate the physical capacity of cow-punchers and cow-boys in Texas, then why, in Heaven's name do you not tax the French actresses who disport themselves at some night club or carabet in the West End of London? It is precisely the same principle. You have American films come into this country, and either because you desire to prohibit their importation—which has not been argued—or because you desire to extract revenue, you impose these duties. But you have American artists coming to this country and appearing in the West End music halls and theatres and in the Provinces. They provide a form of entertainment which is not unlike the cinema, except that it is more human.
I think the hon. Member is getting rather wide of the Amendment. I must ask him to confine himself to the question of taxing cinematograph films.
I am very desirous of bowing to your ruling, but I respectfully submit that by contrast my argument is fair. I cannot argue against the imposition of a duty on this form of entertainment if I am not permitted to contrast it with another form of entertainment on which no duty is imposed. I do not wish to pursue a line of argu- ment which you, in your wisdom, deem to be out of order. I appeal to the learned Solicitor-General on other grounds. I return to the question of the revenue that is produced. I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman has the facts before him. I find that the revenue from imported cinema films has remained practically stationary since 1920. Therefore, as a result of this imposition no impression has been made either on the prohibition of these films or on the revenue from them. The statements of my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Short) and my hon. Friend the Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) are perfectly relevant to this issue. They have argued that here is an industry which is seeking some measure of relief from the depression which surrounds it. There is no indication that the Government propose to relax the Entertainments Duty in any degree. My hon. Friends put the case that a remission of duty would be a welcome relief to harassed and embarrassed cinema proprietors and film producers.
I appeal to the Government to consider this matter from all points of view. There is no Protectionist case for the duty. If there be one we have not heard it. Nor is there a case from the point of view of revenue. It has been stated that we had £271,000 of revenue in the last financial year. That is an altogether negligible sum. The hon. and learned Gentleman did say that if the Government were proposing to indulge in an expenditure of £271,000 there would be vehement protests from hon. Members on these Benches. There have been very strong protests from Members on these Benches against the expenditure of a much greater amount, but nothing has happened and the Government has continued to waste public money on things which are of no value to the Community. If the Government desires some means of curtailing expenditure in order to provide a sum for the remission of this Entertainments Duty, hon. Members on these Benches will be only too glad to furnish the Government with the necessary information.
10.0 P.M.
I wish to speak very briefly and to deal with only two points. The first is one made by the learned Solicitor-General, in reply, as he imagined, to the contradictory arguments of the hon. Member for Govan and the hon. Member for Wednesbury. Surely a tax that is a small thing for the State in the way of revenue may be an absolute ruinous tax on an industry? I do not think that there is any real difference between my two hon. Friends when one regards the matter from the point of view of a revenue which is negligible, and a tax, when placed on this particular industry, is heavy and oppressive. I hoped that in response to the appeal made to him the hon. and learned Gentleman would have given us some concession in regard to educational films. I believe that last year, after the Mount Everest exhibition film had been produced, it was admitted to this country free of duty because of its educational value. At any rate a very considerable remission of taxation was made. If we are to carry out the views expressed in this House by the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) who urges us to see that the geography and history of the Empire are better taught, we could not do it in a better way than by allowing these films from our Colonies and from foreign countries to come in free. The children who live in the crowded parts of our industrial cities can have no conception, from any words that are used, of the beauties and glories of the natural scenes that can be depicted on the cinema.
I recollect many years ago taking some boys from one of the slum quarters on the Thames to the North Downs, and bringing them suddenly on to Betchworth Clumps, where the Weald is about 500 feet below. A very intelligent boy turned to me, when that scene burst on his view, and said: "Sir, I never thought there was such a place in the world." Yet, if you had asked that boy, he could have told you that Mount Everest was 29,002 feet high, and he would have been very particular about the "two." From an educational point of view the cinema makes these things real and gives some meaning to them. I hope that the Government will be able to meet us even in that small way, so that when we introduce the cinema into the schools we may get some assistance. After all, it is a small concession to ask, and I believe it would do a great deal more to make these scenes real to the children of our country.
I am very sorry to hear that the Solicitor-General cannot make any remission in any particular case. I would like to refer to the apparent discrepancy between the two arguments, namely, the argument that the £271,000 was a very small sum, and the other argument that it was a very large sum. Everyone will agree that £271,000, compared with our enormous Revenue, is a small sum indeed, but in an industry, which everybody admits is making very small profits, and with the Entertainments Duty, which everybody, more or less, in this House is pledged to reduce, £271,000 would give some relief worth while. So that, after all, the arguments were not so mutually destructive as the Solicitor-General would make out.
There has been a great deal of talk to-night about the question of motor-cars, watches, clocks, etc. May I suggest that cinematograph films are not open to the same objection? Motor-cars and the rest of the things can be produced in this country to any amount, but I think nobody will say that all the films which it is desirable that we should see, particularly from an educational point of view, can be produced in this country. We want the films to range over the whole world. If the educational effect of these films is to be the greatest, we must have them from everywhere. You might say we could send English companies to the places to produce them, but that would be very expensive, and it would not compete with the others. From the educational point of view, I think there is a case for this which cannot be argued about any other articles which have been mentioned to-night. As a member of an Education Committee I saw, some time ago, an exhibition by certain of these people who are making these machines. They came down to that Education Committee to show them what could be done, and every member of the Committee admitted that there were huge possibilities in this work in the schools of this country. We were given an exhibition which had a very good effect on every member of the Committee, and I believe we were all convinced that it would be a very good thing indeed if these cinematograph films were brought into the schools more and more, and used in an educational sense. I still hope the Solicitor-General will see his way to make remission of this very small duty compared with the Revenue of our country.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is possible for him to accede to the request made by the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Ede), and that, if he cannot give the concession asked for, he will give an undertaking that the duty will not be applied to films purely of an educational character.
I have not had the privilege of hearing the whole Debate, because one must occasionally get a little refreshment, but I will consult
with my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. I should like, if possible, to exempt educational films. I am not sure whether it is possible under the terms of the Bill, but I will consult with him as to what has taken place, and will give my decision before the Report stage.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 242.
Division No. 207.] AYES. [10.10 p.m. Adams, D. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardie, George D. Ponsonby, Arthur Ammon, Charles George Harney, E. A. Potts, John S. Attlee, C. R. Harris, Percy A. Pringle, W. M. R. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hartshorn, Vernon Rae, Sir Henry N. Barnes, A. Hastings, Patrick Richards, R. Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Ritson, J. Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Hemmerde, E. G. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Bonwick, A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Rose, Frank H. Briant, Frank Herriotts, J. Royce, William Stapleton Broad, F. A. Hill, A. Scrymgeour, E. Bromfield, William Hillary, A. E. Sexton, James Brotherton, J. Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Buchanan, G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Shinwell, Emanuel Buckle, J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Burgess, S. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Sitch, Charles H. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snell, Harry Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Snowden, Philip Cape, Thomas Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Chapple, W. A. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Charleton, H. C. Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Stephen, Campbell Clarke, Sir E. C. Kenyon, Barnet Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kirkwood, D. Sullivan, J. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lansbury, George Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Darbishire, C. W. Lawson, John James Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leach, W. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Duffy, T. Gavan Lee, F. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Duncan, C. Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Tillett, Benjamin Dunnico, H. Lowth, T. Tout, W. J. Ede, James Chuter Lunn, William Trevelyan, C. P. Edge, Captain Sir William McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Turner, Ben Edmonds, G. M'Entee, V. L. Wallhead, Richard C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth. Bedwellty) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Fairbairn, R. R. March, S. Webb, Sidney Falconer, J. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Weir, L. M. Foot, Isaac Maxton, James Wheatley, J. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Middleton, G White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gilbert, James Daniel Millar, J. D. Whiteley, W. Gosling, Harry Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Muir, John W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Greenall, T. Murnin, H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wright, W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Groves, T. Nichol, Robert Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, Captain James Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones.—Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. Morgan Jones. Guthrie, Thomas Maule Paling, W.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Galbraith, J. F. W. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Ganzoni, Sir John Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Garland, C. S. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Apsley, Lord Gates, Percy Parker, Owen (Kettering) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Pease, William Edwin Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Penny, Frederick George Astor, Viscountess Goff, Sir R. Park Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Gould, James C. Perring, William George Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Gray, Harold (Cambridge) Peto, Basil E. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Greaves-Lord, Walter Pilditch, Sir Philip Balfour, George (Hampstead) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hackn'y, N.) Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Greenwood, William (Stockport) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Barnett, Major Richard W. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Preston, Sir W. R. Barnston, Major Harry Gretton, Colonel John Privett, F. J. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Remer, J. R. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Halstead, Major D. Remnant, Sir James Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Rentoul, G. S. Blades, Sir George Rowland Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Harrison, F. C. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Brass, Captain W. Hawke, John Anthony Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'nW) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Bruford, R. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bruton, Sir James Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Buckingham, Sir H. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Hood, Sir Joseph Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butcher, Sir John George Hopkins, John W. W. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Butt, Sir Alfred Houfton, John Plowright Sandon, Lord Cassels, J. D. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Cautley, Henry Strother Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Shepperson, E. W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hudson, Capt. A. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hughes, Collingwood Skelton, A. N. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hume, G. H. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hurd, Percy A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Chapman, Sir S. Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Chilcott, Sir Warden Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian. N.) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Stanley, Lord Clayton, G. C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Steel, Major S. Strang Cobb, Sir Cyril Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stott. Lt.-Col. W. H. Conway, Sir W. Martin Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Cope, Major William Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry King, Captain Henry Douglas Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Lamb, J. Q. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Curzon, Captain Viscount Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thorpe, Captain John Henry Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Titchfield, Marquess of Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lorimer, H. D. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Tubbs, S. W. Dawson, Sir Philip Lynn, R. J. Turton, Edmund Russborough Doyle, N. Grattan Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Wallace, Captain E. Dudgeon, Major C. R. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Maddocks, Henry Waring, Major Walter Edmondson, Major A. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Ednam, viscount Manville, Edward Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Ellis, R. G. Margesson, H. D. R. Wells, S. R. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Mercer, Colonel H. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wise, Frederick Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Molson, Major John Elsdale Wolmer, Viscount Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Fawkes, Major F. H. Morden, Col. W. Grant Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Flanagan, W. H. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Ford, Patrick Johnston Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Foreman, Sir Henry Murchison, C. K. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Forestier-Walker, L. Nall, Major Joseph Yerburgh, R. D. T. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Furness, G. J. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
I beg to move, to leave out the words
"and the additional Customs duties on dried fruits."
There is no doubt that the modern tendency in our own country is to eat more fruit—not so much as a result of any definite propaganda, but rather as an outcome of a change in the habits and thoughts of the people. There is nothing more striking to one going abroad than to discover that there is so little variety at home in the dishes which our people provide for the table. In the very small circle within which the housewife can wander she is always faced with the difficulty of providing a variety of food. It seems, therefore, that at this time we ought to do all we can to get rid of this lack of variety. Let us see ourselves as others see us, and, instead of being proud because we are able to dispose of so much solid meat, let us look at the question rather with the eyes of the foreigner who expressed disgust-at our action in pulling lobster flesh to pieces with hooks and knives.
I do not think I can allow on this Amendment a lecture on the gastronomic habits of the people. The sole question is whether or not we shall continue the Customs duties on dried fruits.
I may seem to be out of order, but I can assure the Committee that there is method in my madness. I wanted to draw a parallel from which I might attack the position of the Government, and prove that there is a necessity at the present time for a greater variety of food for the people—not only food for the minds which might be provided by cinematograph shows, but also more variety for the body in the matter of the things that we eat. I wish to point out that while, in one sense, the body is a mere heat machine, we cannot say that it is stoked on the same principles as a boiler. While a man's horse-power depends upon the amount of food that he consumes, the mere fact of his eating is not going to give him the power unless there is relish with the food.
The hon. Member is really frightening the Committee, and I must ask him not to continue in that strain.
Surely it is in order, when we are discussing whether dried fruits shall be made cheaper, to discuss the advantages of dried fruits from the dietetic point of view?
There is a limit to the amount of exordium that can be allowed.
I do not often occupy the time of the House, and I have given the matter some little thought, in order to try and get some real argument—not for the sake of talking and occupying time, but to get some argument which would move the Government to make this concentrated sunshine, namely, dried fruit, more available for the people. As, however, I seem, in my attempts to do justice to my subject, to have wandered down at least two by-paths, I have now much pleasure in resuming my seat, and allowing someone, perhaps, to try another method, in which, I hope, they will have more success.
I very much hope that the Government are going to see their way to accept this Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] My hon. Friends are quick to reject it, but when I point out that the amount involved is only a little over £750,000—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—in comparison with the annual revenues of this country, and taking into account, as I am sure the Committee wishes to do, the fact that fresh fruit is really far more expensive for the working classes to buy than dried fruit, and that any doctor will say that a proportion of fruit is an absolute essential to the diet of human beings, I am sure that hon. Members on the other side will realise that after all, compared with the health of the working population of this country, a sacrifice of £750,000 of revenue is not a very great thing. The hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher), I understand, considers that for the country's revenues to lose £750,000 a year in order that the working-class population of the country generally, including his own constituency, may benefit thereby—the proportion in his constituency would not be very large—is an unjustifiable sacrifice. I hope he will see his way to justifying his works in his constituency. For myself, I think it is a very short and narrow view to take of a very serious question. I have no wish to take up the time of the Committee on this point. It is not a point of great magnitude, but I venture to press upon the Financial Secretary that it is a point of substance, and to ask him to consider whether the increment to the revenue is really one which he cannot afford to lose, in view of the great benefit that will accrue to the working-class population, and to beg him to accept the Amendment.
I should like to add my plea to those which have been made to the Government to accept the Amendment. Dried fruit is now becoming more popular than ever it was, probably, for many reasons. One that strikes me particularly is that it becomes very difficult to get fresh fruit. The railway companies continue to make it more difficult by the exceedingly high rates they charge. All the efforts that have been made to get some little remission of the taxes on food have failed, and it appears to me that this is the last possible effort we can make. It might be called the last hope of the poor for some remission of food taxation. The amount of revenue it brings in is very small indeed compared with the huge sums that come to the State each year. The children are becoming accustomed to dried fruit and it is becoming a staple food amongst the poorer people. It is amazing to me to hear a number of people, themselves well fed, over-fed some of them, coming in after enjoying a good dinner and finding themselves in a mood when they can laugh at any attempt that is made to remit some of the taxation on the food of the people. It is very easy to laugh when you have a full stomach. I have had the other experience of having an empty one.
I must ask the hon. Member to come back to dried fruit.
I think I am entitled—I am sorry if I am not—to illustrate an argument in favour of the remission of taxation on food. It is not going to cost the Government much, and it will mean a considerable amount to a very large number of people, and particularly the children. They do not get much opportunity of what you would probably call luxury. It may be considered that dried fruit is a luxury. To many people in the poorer districts it is a luxury they only get, if at all, at the week-end if it is cheap. If it is not cheap they cannot afford it, and a half-penny in the expenditure of a couple of shillings means the difference between getting it and not getting it to thousands, it may be millions of people. It ought not to be too much, I hope it is not, to ask the Government to make this one little concession to the poor. You have given very many concessions to the rich, in fact practically all the concessions in the Budget have been concessions to the rich, and we are asking you now as a sort of death bed repentance to make this last concession, this widow's mite as it were, to the children of the poor.
I should like to put a question to the Secretary to the Treasury. Would a lower duty raise the revenue on the articles referred to? In 1920 £500,000 was collected from taxes on dried fruit. In the figures I have Before me, from the report of the Customs and Excise Commission, I find that during the year 1922 the total revenue collected was about £750,000. I do not know how much revenue is estimated to be raised this year, but it might well be that with a lower duty there would be an increased consumption, and the revenue might not lose. The duty on dried fruit, other than currants, was increased by 50 per cent. in September, 1915. We have pleaded on this side of the Committee, with due consideration for the interests of the taxpayers, that certain concessions should be granted. We have received no concession from the Financial Secretary. If the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to reduce the duty to the level at which it stood before 1915, there might be an increased consumption, and the Treasury would not lose anything at the end of the year.
I want the Committee to realise what it is that is troubling hon. Members opposite. It has been said that we are illtreating the poor. [HON. MEMBEES: "Hear, hear!"] We have had very moving speeches as to the effect of this duty upon the poor people and the children. What does it amount to? The consumption of currants is 3 lbs. per head per annum, and the duty is 2s. per cwt. Work it out. If it had been put to me that this duty is no good to the revenue, I should have answered in one way: but it has been put on the ground that we are ill-treating poor families. The annual tax that a poor family or any family pays on currants is, at the outside, 1d. per head per annum, and the amount any family pays on other dried fruits is about 4d. per head per annum. Therefore the total tax paid by the average member of the community is 5d. per head per annum.
It is easy to arrive at such a figure by taking the whole population and imagining that the whole population eat dried fruit, which they do not.
I think it is very generally distributed. I do not think any one section of the population more than another eats currants, raisins, etc. I wish hon. Members had put it a little more fairly. I do not like suggestions that we are trying to interfere with the comforts of the poor, when it is only a question of 5d. per head per annum.
The right hon. Gentleman is not quite fair. The case I put was that the revenue was negligible.
I was not referring to the hon. and gallant Member. He speaks so frequently that, for once, I overlooked him. The question of the revenue is £800,000 a year. In these circumstances I am not prepared to give up that source of revenue.
I understand the position of the right hon. Gentleman so far as currants are concerned. If the duty were remitted it would have practically no effect upon the price. If the grocer were consulted he would say that the remission would be so small that it could not be translated into a reduction in price. But in the case of plums, raisins and prunes the duty represents something like 1d. a lb., and if the duty were taken off those articles could be sold at 1d. a lb. less. This would be a substantial benefit, as these articles enter largely into the dietary of the poorer homes of the country. Seeing that the duties were put on for a special purpose only a year or two after the other duties, we ought now to receive some concession. They might also be included in the McKenna duties. Now that we have been able to get out of the War and face the finance of subsequent years, first consideration should be given to the removal of these duties which hit a large number of poor people. Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman, even if he did retain the tax on currants, to consider some remission upon the three other commodities, in the case of which remission should be translated immediately into some small relief in expenditure in the poor homes of the country?
May I intervene, before we take a Division, to ask a question? It would be a great convenience to Members if the Prime Minister could state how far he intends to carry the business to-night, and, if it were possible, to make an additional statement as to the later stages. I do not press the second point, but it would be an advantage if hon. Gentlemen could be informed how far the right hon. Gentleman intends to go to-night.
With the permission of the Committee, I shall be glad to answer my right hon. Friend. I am particularly anxious in a Finance Bill to avoid as far as possible either late sittings or the notice of the Closure of the time-table. I think, having regard to the number of Amendments put down and the desire for discussion, that probably it would be advisable to take one more day than I had intended; but, in the circumstances. I put it to the Committee that we might look for some such arrangement as this: that we should in any event bring our discussions to a close at a reasonable hour—say, at about 12 o'clock. If we can do that, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect that we should conclude the Amendments by 12 o'clock to-morrow night, and take Monday and Tuesday to discuss the proposed new Clauses—of which there is a considerable number—and bring the Committee stage of the Bill to an end by Tuesday at midnight. If that arrangement meets with general acceptance in the Committee, I should be very pleased to adhere to it.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has given vent to a considerable amount of righteous indignation at the nature of the Amendment, and he took the precaution to point out how much it really meant to each person in the community spread over a year. It is all very well for the Financial Secretary to point out on this particular Amendment the trivial nature of the concession which the acceptance of the Amendment would give to the poorer section of the people, but when we take this food tax and join it with the other food taxes which are imposed, we find that there is being heaped on the poorer people an annual burden which is very difficult to bear. Looking at the broad general question of taxation, my hon. Friends are quite justified in saying that this Budget gives concessions to the wealthy, whereas little or nothing——
The broad general question of taxation should be discussed on the Second or Third Reading and not on a particular Amendment.
I had no intention of discussing the broad general question. I was illustrating the point which we are discussing on this Amendment and I was pointing out that my hon. Friends were quite justified in saying this was
a rich man's Budget and not a poor man's Budget. Little or no concession has been made to the poorer section of the community and, on the showing of the Financial Secretary, the Government cannot afford to make the concession asked for in this Amendment. I hope the right hon. Gentleman may yet see his way to agree to the concession. Dried fruit, as well as fresh fruit, is of the greatest importance to the working classes and the effect of any such concession as this would be felt in many homes. The Prime Minister and the Financial Secretary would be well advised to accept the Amendment.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 165.
Division No. 208.] AYES. [10.56 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gretton, Colonel John Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Chapman, Sir S. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Chilcott, Sir Warden Gwynne, Rupert S. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Churchman, Sir Arthur Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Clayton, G. C. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l. W. D'by) Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Halstead, Major D. Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Colfox, Major Win. Phillips Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Astor, Viscountess Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Conway, Sir W. Martin Harrison, F. C. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Cope, Major William Hawke, John Anthony Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Barnett, Major Richard W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Barnston, Major Harry Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Becker, Harry Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hood, Sir Joseph Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hopkins, John W. W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Dawson, Sir Philip Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) Doyle, N. Grattan Houfton, John Plowright Birchall, Major J. Dearman Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Edmondson, Major A. J. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Blades, Sir George Rowland Ednam, Viscount Hudson, Capt. A. Blundell, F. N. Ellis, R. G. Hughes, Collingwood Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hume, G. H. Brass, Captain W. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Brassey, Sir Leonard Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Hurd, Percy A. Brittain, Sir Harry Fawkes, Major F. H. Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Flanagan, W. H. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Ford, Patrick Johnston Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Foreman, Sir Henry Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Bruford, R. Forestier-Walker, L. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Bruton, Sir James Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Buckingham, Sir H. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Furness, G. J. King, Captain Henry Douglas Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Galbraith, J. F. W. Lamb, J. Q. Butcher, Sir John George Ganzonl, Sir John Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Garland, C. S. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Butt, Sir Alfred Gates, Percy Lorimer, H. D. Cadogan, Major Edward Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Cassels, J. D. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lynn, R. J. Cautley, Henry Strother Goff, Sir R. Park Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gould, James C. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Greaves-Lord, Walter Maddocks, Henry Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Greene, Lt.-Col- Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Manville, Edward Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Margesson, H. D. R. Mason, Lieut.-Col C. K Remnant, Sir James Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Mercer, Colonel H. Rentoul, G. S. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Morden, Col. W. Grant Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Murchison, C. K. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Nail, Major Joseph Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.) Titchfield, Marquess of Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Tubbs, S. W. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Roundell, Colonel R. F. Turton, Edmund Russborough Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wallace, Captain E. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Waring, Major Walter Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wells, S. R. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Pease, William Edwin Sandon, Lord Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Penny, Frederick George Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Winterton, Earl Perring, William George Shepperson, E. W. Wise, Frederick Peto, Basil E. Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Wolmer, Viscount Pilditch, Sir Philip Skelton, A. N. Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Preston, Sir W. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Privett, F. J. Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Raeburn, Sir William H. Stanley, Lord Yerburgh, R. D. T. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Steel, Major S. Strang Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson anl Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson anl Colonel Gibbs. Remer, J. R. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth
NOES. Adams, D. Gilbert, James Daniel Lee, F. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Gosling, Harry Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Lowth, T. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Gray, Frank (Oxford) McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A. Attlee, C. R. Greenall, T. M'Entee, V. L. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Barnes, A. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) March, S. Batey, Joseph Groves, T. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Grundy, T. W. Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Bonwick, A. Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) Millar, J. D. Bowerman, Pt. Hon. Charles W. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Briant, Frank Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Broad, F. A. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Mosley, Oswald Bromfield, William Hardie, George D. Murnin, H. Brotherton, J. Harney, E. A. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Harris, Percy A. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Buchanan, G. Hartshorn, Vernon Nichol, Robert Buckle, J. Hastings, Patrick O'Grady, Captain James Burgess, S. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Oliver, George Harold Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Hayday, Arthur Paling, W. Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hemmerde, E. G. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Cape, Thomas Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Chapple, W. A. Herriotts, J. Ponsonby, Arthur Charleton, H. C. Hill, A. Potts, John S. Clarke, Sir E. C. Hillary, A. E. Pringle, W. M. R. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hirst, G. H. Rae, Sir Henry N. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jarrett, G. W. S. Richards, R. Darbishire, C. W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) John, William (Rhondda, West) Ritson, J. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Duffy, T. Gavan Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Duncan, C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rose, Frank H. Dunnico, H. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Royce, William Stapleton Ede, James Chuter Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sexton, James Edge, Captain Sir William Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Edmonds, G. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Shinwell, Emanuel Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Kenyon, Barnet Sitch, Charles H. Fairbairn, R. R. Kirkwood, D. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Falconer, J. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Snell, Harry Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lansbury, George Snowden, Philip Foot, Isaac Lawson, John James Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Leach, W. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Stephen, Campbell Trevelyan, C. P. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Stewart, J, (St. Rollox) Turner, Ben Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Sullivan, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Webb, Sidney Wright, W. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Weir, L. M. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Wheatley, J. Tillett, Benjamin White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn. Tout, W. J. Whiteley, W.
I do not intend to call any further Amendments on this Clause.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
11.0 P.M.
You, Mr. Chairman, say that you are not taking any further Amendments. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] I think we are entitled to know the reason for that decision.
The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to know. The discretion is vested in the Chairman, and I know from experience that the fewer reasons given the better.
Before we come to a discussion as to whether or not Amendments are to be discussed, could we not have from the Leader of the House, or the Chief Whip, some information as to how far he intends to go to-night? [HON. MEMBERS: "We have had it."] For in that case we might avoid futile discussion. It is a matter of importance to the Committee, for if Amendments are to be skipped in this fashion, there is likely to be a long Debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." How far do the Government intend to go?
I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman was in the Committee when I made a suggestion that we should not go beyond midnight to-night and to-morrow night? I have been waiting to see whether response was given to that suggestion, and whether or not it was accepted.
indicated assent.
I have a few observations to make on the Question now before the Committee that the Clause stand fast. The taxation of the articles in the Clause was put on as overtime taxation, and the articles are of general consumption among the working classes of the country. Not only are the articles of general consumption, but these duties in the main bring in a very small amount of revenue in proportion to the number of articles affected. The taxes are therefore bad from a general fiscal point of view. On principle it is a mistake to have a large number of articles subject to taxation, because when that arises a disproportionate amount of what is collected is spent on the collection. It is therefore the duty of the Committee narrowly to examine these duties from year to year, and to impress upon the Government the need for a full vindication of their action in retaining such taxes.
I do not intend to deal with the attitude of the prospective Chancellor of the Exchequer in relation to these duties, for Mr. McKenna had not, actually, responsibility in relation to what are known distinctively as the "McKenna Duties," but he had equal responsibility for the additional duties upon dried fruits. In regard to all of them it is well known that they were justified and defended singly and solely as war-time measures, which would not be retained after the War. Indeed, Mr. McKenna gave a definite promise that at the end of the War, if he were responsible, these duties should be repealed. I never paid much attention to that promise. I was, to some extent, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond). Indeed, with regard to the controversy of that time, I sat at the feet of Gamaliel, and I am happy to-night to welcome the return of one whom I "loved long since and lost awhile." The main burden of the fight was borne by the right hon. Member for Swansea. He recognised, as I did, the utter futility of placing any reliance on pledges then. He knew, as well as I did, that the movement had begun to destroy the Ministry of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), and that when the Ministry went the pledges that had been given on its behalf went with it. But now a new situation has arisen. The Chancellor of the Exchequer of that Ministry is returning to a position of responsibility, and he will bring back with him the promise that he then made as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. McKenna may have changed his principles or his party, but Mr. McKenna would keep a promise that he has made. That is a different matter altogether from a matter of principle or opinion upon public questions. If Mr. McKenna made a promise that certain duties for which he was responsible were to come to an end if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer, that promise once more revives.
He never said that.
I forgive the hon. and gallant Gentleman, for I do not think that he was here when the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) read a letter which Mr. McKenna wrote as recently as 21st May, 1921.
I was in the House, and I did not understand that Mr. McKenna said that if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer he would repeal the duties.
He said that he gave a promise, and that in view of that promise, not only was he bound, but any Chancellor of the Exchequer was bound by it. That is going a great deal further. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I would not go as far as to say that every Chancellor of the Exchequer is bound by the promises of his predecessor, but it is fair to say that if a man repeats a promise——
Is it in order to discuss any promise made by a gentleman who is not a Member of this House? Surely it will be time enough to raise that question when the gentleman named is a Member of this House?
Woe betide him when he comes!
It would certainly seem more natural and desirable, but at the same time these duties were started on the initiative of Mr. McKenna, and, therefore, it is not out of order to refer to him.
My point is that it may be quite in Order to refer to Mr. McKenna, but it is not in order to refer to the question whether he will carry out any alleged promises if and when he become a Member of this House.
That cannot be ruled out of order.
I do not desire to stress the matter unduly. It is a misfortune from their point of view, of course, that they should have to take Mr. McKenna back. [An HON. MEMBER: "From yours, too!"] Not from ours. We are not wanting him; we had given him up. [An HON. MEMBER: "The bell-wether!"] The bell-wether is understood to carry something with him, but on this occasion he comes back naked and alone.
On a point of Order. May I ask whether the question before the Committee is the return of Mr. McKenna, or that Clause 6 stand part of the Bill?
The hon. Member has talked about the bell-wether, but up to the present he has not connected it with Clause 6. I must ask the hon. Member to make the connection or to pass away.
I understand that you have offered me the alternative either of passing away or making the connection. As I want to accelerate business, I am not going to take the latter alternative, and I will, therefore, pass away. I understand why the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) should be sensitive in regard to Mr. McKenna, but I understand the cause for that has passed away. I have been diverted from the point of my contention, which was that the promise which was then given, and which Mr. McKenna held to be binding, not only upon himself, but upon the various Chancellors of the Exchequer who have succeeded him, must certainly be revised when Mr. McKenna returns, as undoubtedly he will do, because we have had a definite announcement from the Front Bench that he will return. I am very glad, and I think it is important that the Government and the supporters of the Government——
The hon. Member neither seems to get to the point nor to pass away.
I thought it was only from the bell-wether that I was to pass away. The main contention upon which these duties have been recommended to the Committee to-night, and the main argument—indeed, I may say, the sole argument, upon which they have received support on the benches opposite—is that not only are these duties protective in their character, and for that reason good in themselves, but that the existence of these protective duties in our fiscal system justifies a further extension of that principle in our system of taxation. That I understand—and I hope I am not misrepresenting it—to be the main argument in support of these duties. I have listened throughout the Debate, and I think that that will command the general assent of the Committee. That makes a really new situation. Up to the present time these taxes have been mainly justified for revenue reasons. The contention that they are protective or that they ought to be continued because they are protective has received no countenance from the Treasury Bench. As a result of this Debate we have reached the situation that not only is the party opposite committed to a Protectionist policy, but the Government which they support, as a result of to-night's Debate, is also revealed in a
purely Protectionist character. That is a reason why, on this occasion, we should challenge the continuance of these duties. Let us see who are Protectionist and who are Free Traders. Because the continuance of these duties has made the issue clear. This is going to be one of the great issues in the near future. I oppose these duties because they are a symbol of re-action in this country. Under these duties, for the first time in time of peace, this country has become Protectionist after 70 years. There has been a similar tendency in every other country in the world. There has been a general re-action tending to restrict freedom of trade, placing barriers between the nations, and it is an ill omen that this country, which has been the pioneer of communication between the nations, should be the pioneer of re-action. It is as a protest against this action and against this reversal of our policy and against our country giving-up its leadership in a great cause valuable to the future peace of the world, that I ask the Committee to divide against this Amendment.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 147.
Division No. 209.] AYES. [11.19 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Ednam, Viscount Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Butcher, Sir John George Ellis, R. G. Apsley, Lord Butler. H. M. (Leeds, North) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Butt. Sir Alfred Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Cadogan, Major Edward Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Cassels, J. D. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Cautley, Henry Strother Fawkes, Major F. H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Flanagan, W. H. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Ford, Patrick Johnston Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Foreman, Sir Henry Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Barnett, Major Richard W. Chapman, Sir S. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Barnston, Major Harry Chilcott, Sir Warden Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Becker, Harry Churchman, Sir Arthur Furness, G. J. Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Clayton, G. C. Galbraith, J. F. W. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cobb, Sir Cyril Ganzonl, Sir John Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Garland, C. S. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Gates, Percy Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester) Conway, Sir W. Martin Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Blades, Sir George Rowland Cope, Major William Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Blundell, F. N. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Goff, Sir R. Park Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Gould, James C. Brass, Captain W. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Greaves-Lord, Walter Brassey, Sir Leonard Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Brittain, Sir Harry Curzon, Captain Viscount Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Davidson. J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Davies, Thomas (Clrencester) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I, W. D'by) Bruford, R. Dawson, Sir Philip Halstead, Major D. Bruton, Sir James Doyle, N. Grattan Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Buckingham, Sir H. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Edmondson, Major A. J. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Harrison, F. C. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Hawke, John Anthony Murchison, C. K. Skelton, A. N. Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Nail, Major Joseph Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Stanley, Lord Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Steel, Major S. Strang Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Oman, Sir Charles William C. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Hood, Sir Joseph Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hopkins, John W. W. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Pease, William Edwin Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Houfton, John Plowright Penny, Frederick George Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Hudson, Capt. A. Perring, William George Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hughes, Collingwood Peto, Basil E. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hume, G. H. Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Thorpe, Captain John Henry Hurd, Percy A. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Titchfield, Marquess of Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Preston, Sir W. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Turton, Edmund Russborough Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Privett, F. J. Wallace, Captain E. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Raeburn, Sir William H. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Rankin, Captain James Stuart Waring, Major Walter Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Remer, J. R. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Wells, S. R King, Capt. Henry Douglas Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Lamb, J. Q. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Lorimer, H. D. Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isl'gt'n W) Winterton, Earl Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wise, Frederick Lynn, R. J. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wolmer, Viscount Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Manville, Edward Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Margesson, H. D. R. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hen. Sir L. Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Mercer, Colonel H. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sandon, Lord TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Morden, Col. W. Grant Shepperson, E. W.
NOES. Adams, D. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Lansbury, George Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Gray, Frank (Oxford) Lawson, John James Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Greenall, T. Leach, W. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Lee, F. Ammon, Charles George Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Attlee, C. R. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lowth, T. Barnes, A. Grigg, Sir Edward Lunn, William Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Groves, T. Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Batey, Joseph Grundy, T. W. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.) M'Entee, V. L. Bonwick, A. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Broad, F. A. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) March, S. Brotherton, J. Hardie, George D. Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Harris, Percy A. Martin F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Buchanan, G. Hartshorn, Vernon Middleton, G. Buckle, J. Hastings, Patrick Millar, J. D. Burgess, S. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Morltz Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Hayday, Arthur Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Mosley, Oswald Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Murnin, H. Chapple, W. A. Herriotts, J. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Charleton, H. C. Hill, A. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Clarke, Sir E. C. Hirst, G. H. O'Grady, Captain James Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Oliver, George Harold Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jarrett, G. W. S. Paling, W. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Duncan, C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Dunnico, H. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Ede, James Chuter Jchnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Ponsonby, Arthur Edge, Captain Sir William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Potts, John S. Edmonds, G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Rae, Sir Henry N. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Rees, Sir Beddoe Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Richards, R. Falrbairn, R. R. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Falconer, J. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Ritson, J. Foot, Isaac Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Kirkwood, D. Royce, William Stapleton. Gosling, Harry Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Sexton, James Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Whiteley, W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sitch, Charles H. Thornton, M. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Tout, W. J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Snell, Harry Trevelyan, C. P. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Turner, Ben Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Stephen, Campbell Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Sullivan, J. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Pringle and Mr. T. Thomson.—Mr. Pringle and Mr. T. Thomson. Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William Wheatley, J.
CLAUSE 7.—(Continuation of increased medicine duties.)
The additional duties of Excise imposed by Section eleven of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, on medicines liable to duty shall continue to be charged, levied and paid until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-four.
The Amendments on the Paper to this Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) really amount to negativing the Clause, and, therefore, must be discussed on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I oppose this Clause, because I want to get the Patent Medicine Duty entirely repealed, or, at any rate, to get that portion of the increase taken off which was put on as a result of the War, so that the tax may stand at what it was before the imposition of the additional 1½d. The amount realised by the tax, for Great Britain, in 1914, before the imposition of the additional duty, was £360,377. In 1921–22, the net receipts from the duty were £1,328,448. I do not know what the figures are for the year 1922–23, but I understand that they are about the same. Evidently there has been no greater consumption of this class of medicine during the year, or the amount of revenue received would have been more; but, since this is an article which is largely bought by people who imagine themselves to be unwell, and who are sometimes deluded by the fanciful, alluring advertisements of those firms who advertise these medicines, I do not think the Government, if it reduced the tax by the amount imposed during the War, would suffer a very great loss of revenue. I oppose the Clause so that we can have a statement of what the Government have in their mind, whether it is intended to continue it for one year only or whether it is intended to be a permanent increase and is no longer to be imposed for the original purpose of raising additional revenue to assist in the prosecution of the War. The House and the country are entitled to a statement from the Government with regard to the future of the tax and whether they do not consider it is time the Patent Medicine Duty should be brought back to the pre-War figure.
Obviously a tax upon medicines must in the very nature of things be a tax upon the health of the people. It is a limitation upon curative treatment that ought not to exist, and thousands of lives must be endangered if a number of medicines are prevented from entering the country because of taxation or other restrictions which may be imposed. Hospitals need a constant supply of certain kinds of medicine, and if they are deprived of the opportunity of using the medicines they know to be necessary for the health of the patients the patients are bound to suffer. There is no excuse for preventing us from enjoying the benefits of foreign vegetable substances embodied in medicine of any description. We ought not to be compelled as a nation to suffer because of an obsession on the part of a few politicians, even though they may desire to enhance the sale of what we see advertised every morning, and though they may have enjoyed the benefit of the Kruschen feeling. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury will find it most difficult to argue that this tax is based upon the need for augmenting Exchequer funds and that people must be made or left unhealthy for the purpose of gathering in revenue. Neither can it be argued successfully that a tax upon medicines will create more employment. On no grounds can a tax on medicines be justified; therefore I hope this Clause will not be passed.
Let me give the Committee one example of what has happened as a result of this tax upon drugs. I am not a believer in permitting poisonous drugs to enter this country, if there is any possibility of the health of the people being injured. We are told by the medical people that drugs which cost before the War from 4d. to 6d. per ounce now cost from 30s. to 36s. per ounce. It is, therefore, fair to asssume that these drugs have not been used by the doctors to as large an extent as they would have been if the price had remained normal. If economies were effected in the use of these drugs it must have been at the expense of the health of the people. We have been told that certain synthetic drugs were urgently needed in this country, and a consignment could have been purchased direct from Germany, at a cost of £5,000,000, but because of the taxation and the restrictions imposed the consignment of drugs could not be purchased there, and the order went to America—!
I would remind the hon. Member that we are dealing with Excise duties. He appears to be arguing on a Customs duty.
I am sorry if I have transgressed the rules of order. My point is that the placing of any tax on medicines raises a point which might be debated. The British medical people paid £35,000,000 for a consignment of drugs from America, although they could have purchased in the first instance from Germany for——
We are concerned with Excise Duty, not Customs Duty.
I am sorry if I am beside the point. I shall vote against this Clause because it is a tax upon the health of the people; and in doing so I am basing my statements upon the evidence of the medical profession. I hope the Financial Secretary will tell us that he intends to revert to the practice of 1914, otherwise we on these benches shall vote against the Clause.
The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) has misunderstood this Clause. It has nothing to do with medicines, hospitals, or doctors' prescriptions. It is not a tax on medicines imported into this country, or medicines used in hospitals or prescribed by doctors, but on what everybody knows as patent medicines, corn cures, and things of that kind. It is an Excise Duty on all these patent cures, some of them doubtless very useful and some perhaps the other way; but there is perhaps no tax in the whole Budget which I think as useful and as desirable. We have heard a great deal about the food of the people, and so on, but if there is one tax which can be fully justified, it is a tax on all luxuries, whoever uses them.
If the right hon. Gentleman is going to support these taxes on the ground that they are taxes on luxuries, are we to take it that he is in favour of a luxury tax?
I am in favour of this tax, at all events, and the hon. Gentleman can make as much or as little as he likes out of that. Before the War this tax produced from £300,000 to £400,000 a year. The tax was doubled, and it now produces £1,300,000 a year, so that doubling the tax has not in any way reduced the consumption of patent medicines. It may be, as the hon. Member suggests, that different forms of medicine are now taken, so that instead of corn cures medicines are now taken internally. I do not dispute that, but when the total consumption of these patent medicines has increased in spite of the doubling of the tax, then that tax cannot be said in any sense to be a protective duty.
The Committee is indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for his clear, precise definition of the meaning of this Clause. He tells us that this is a tax on patent medicines manufactured and sold in this country. But we cannot overlook the fact that a great change has taken place in the attitude of the population with regard to these matters. I am inclined to think this is the age of tabloids. I never sit down to a meal without seeing people taking tabloids and patent medicines of all kinds, and there is no doubt, as the figures quoted by the right hon. Gentleman indicate, it is a growing practice. The right hon. Gentleman said this question did not affect the hospitals. I think it can be shown that as the result of a protracted period of unemployment and distress, the poor quality and quantity of the food obtainable, and the consequently low standard of living prevailing among working people and their families, their powers of resistance have been invaded. They are more likely to suffer from disease and the means whereby they can get proper and adequate treatment have been lessened. We all know, as was indicated by an eminent London coroner recently, that our panel system is not by any means the best conceivable; indeed, in some quarters it is regarded as a failure. At the one end of the scale, the poorer class of people through their distress, and at the other end of the scale, the richer class because of their folly, are being compelled to resort to patent medicines. I do not speak for the well-to-do. I am thinking largely of the poorer class, and as the duty on patent medicines has increased the cost, it has to that extent and in that way, interfered with and jeopardised the health of the community. From that standpoint, we are entitled to challenge this duty. It only brings in £1,328,448, and considering the amount of revenue realised, we might well afford either to reduce it or abolish it altogether. I regret that in none of the
cases which we have submitted to-night has the Government proposed to make any concessions. The policy of the right hon. Gentleman is a negative one. He told us before that he had closed his mind and he is not likely to be influenced by any arguments put forward from this side of the Committee.
The hon. Member is going rather wide of the Amendment.
I was expressing my regret that the right hon. Gentleman did not try to meet us in regard to some of these matters. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will display a little more leniency towards us in these matters and that he will be more willing to try to meet us. If he does, I am encouraged to believe that the Opposition finally will draw something from him.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 119.
Division No. 210.] AYES. [11.50 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Chapman, Sir S. Goff, Sir R. Park Apsley, Lord Chapple, W. A. Gould, James C. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Chilcott, Sir Warden Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Churchman, Sir Arthur Greenwood, William (Stockport) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Clayton, G. C. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Cobb, Sir Cyril Guinness, Lieut. Col. Hon. W. E. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I. W. D'by) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Halstead, Major D. Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Cope, Major William Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Barnett, Major Richard W. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Becker, Harry Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Harbord, Arthur Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Harrison, F. C. Berkeley, Captain Reginald Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Harvey, Major S. E. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hawke, John Anthony Bird, Sir W. B. M. (Chichester) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South) Blades, Sir George Rowland Dawson, Sir Philip Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Blundell, F. N. Doyle, N. Grattan Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Brass, Captain W. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C. Brassey, Sir Leonard Edmondson, Major A. J. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Ednam, Viscount Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Brittain, Sir Harry Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark) Hood, Sir Joseph Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Ellis, R. G. Hopkins, John W. W. Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hopkinsnn, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Bruford, R. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Houfton, John Plowright Bruton, Sir James Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Buckingham, Sir H. Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Hudson, Capt. A. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Hughes, Collingwood Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge) Fawkes, Major F. H. Hume, G. H. Butcher, Sir John George Ford, Patrick Johnston Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Butt, Sir Alfred Fraser, Major Sir Keith Jarrett, G. W. S. Cadogan, Major Edward Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Cassels, J. D. Furness, G. J. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Cautley, Henry Strother Galbraith, J. F. W. Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Ganzonl, Sir John Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Garland, C. S. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Gates, Percy King, Capt. Henry Douglas Lamb, J. Q Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Privett, F. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Raeburn, Sir William H. Sugden, Sir Wilfred H. Lorimer, H. D. Rankin, Captain James Stuart Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Rees, Sir Beddoe Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Lynn, R. J. Remer, J. R. Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Thornton, M. Manville, Edward Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Margesson, H. D. R. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Titchfield, Marquess of Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K. Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isl'gt'n W.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Turton, Edmund Russborough Morden, Col. W. Grant Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Wallace, Captain E. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Murchison, C. K. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Waring, Major Walter Nall, Major Joseph Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wells, S. R. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Sandon, Lord Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Oman, Sir Charles William C. Shepperson, E. W. Winterton, Earl Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. Wise, Frederick Parker, Owen (Kettering) Skelton, A. N. Wolmer, Viscount Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Pease, William Edwin Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree) Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Penny, Frederick George Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Stanley, Lord Perring, William George Steel, Major S. Strang TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Gibbs and Major Barnston.—Colonel Gibbs and Major Barnston. Peto, Basil E. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)
NOES. Adams, D. Hayday, Arthur Phillipps, Vivian Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill) Ponsonby, Arthur Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Potts, John S. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Herriotts, J. Pringle, W. M. R. Barnes, A. Hill, A. Richards, R. Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Bonwick, A. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Ritson, J. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Royce, William Stapleton Buchanan, G. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Saklatvala, S. Buckle, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sexton, James Burgess, S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Snell, Harry Charleton, H. C. Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Stephen, Campbell Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kirkwood, D. Sullivan, J. Duncan, C. Lansbury, George Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Dunnico, H. Lawson, John James Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Ede, James Chuter Leach, W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Edmonds, G. Lee, F. Tout, W. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Trevelyan, C. P. Fairbairn, R. R. Lowth, T. Turner, Ben Falconer, J. M'Entee, V. L. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Foot, Isaac Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gosling, Harry March, S. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Marshall, Sir Arthur H. Welsh, J. C. Gray, Frank (Oxford) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Wheatley, J. Greenall, T. Millar, J. D. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Whiteley, W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grigg, Sir Edward Mosley, Oswald Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Groves, T. Murnin, H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, T. W. Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Grady, Captain James Hardie, George D. Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn. Hartshorn, Vernon Paling, W. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
May I ask, at this stage, whether any definite arrangements have been reached as to the carrying on of the remainder of the Committee stage of the Bill, and how long it is intended to sit to-night?
12 M.
In answer to my right hon. Friend, as I have already indicated, if it meets with the general assent of the Committee, I would be prepared to give an extra day for the discussion of this Bill, on the understanding that we finish the Committee stage of the Amendments to-morrow, and on Monday and Tuesday we finish the new Clauses, thus bringing the Committee stage of the Bill to an end by Tuesday night, and sitting till about 12 o'clock on each night. If we finish at midnight, by arrangement, it will, perhaps, enable us to avoid what we desire to avoid, that is, the Closure or any other expedient having the same end. I hope that an arrangement of the kind suggested will meet with general acceptance. If it does, I propose now that we shall only take the Report stage of the Financial Resolution, which it is necessary for us to obtain before we can enter upon consideration of Clause 8 dealing with the Income Tax.
Is it clearly understood that the extra day conceded by the Government makes no difference to any arrangement that may be necessary for the Report stage?
The Report stage does not at the moment come into the matter at all.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The only point I wish to make is that, as, on the Committee stage, new Clauses may come up, very important Clauses, that may not be adequately discussed, that I hope the Government will give some opportunity for discussion on Report. Our attitude in regard to the Report stage is to some extent governed by that consideration.
I can give no definite promise on that point, but I will consider it. I would ask whether the arrangement which I have suggested is agreed to by the Whips of the different parties?
Yes.
Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Finance [Expenses] (Consolidated Fund)
Resolution reported:
"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision, among other matters, for amending the Law relating to the National Debt, it is expedient, in lieu of the existing provisions with respect to the permanent annual charge for the National Debt and the New Sinking Fund—
( a ) to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the following sums, that is to say—
In the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, the sum of forty million pounds;
In the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, the sum of forty-five million pounds;
In the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, and in every subsequent financial year, the sum of fifty million pounds;
( b ) to provide for the application of the sums so issued towards the purchase, redemption, or paying off of debt; and
( c ) to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums as are required for meeting the annual charges for the National Debt which are now payable out of the permanent annual charge, other than such part of any terminable annuities as represents capital."
Resolution agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Seven Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.