House of Commons
Thursday, June 28, 1923
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [ Lords ] (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with).
laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, brought from the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Bridlington Extension) Confirmation Bill [ Lords ].
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Bridport Extension) Confirmation Bill [ Lords ].
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Brighton Extension) Confirmation Bill [ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Airdrie, Coatbridge, and District Water Board Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time; and ordered to be considered To-morrow.
Oyster and Mussel (Seasalter and Ham) Provisional Order Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till Monday next.
Oral Answers to Questions
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Appeal Tribunal (Waiting Rooms)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether a room has been set aside for the use of the Ministry of Pensions' representatives at the independent Appeal Courts in the Strand, London; whether he is aware that the British Legion have three appellants' representatives employed permanently at these Courts; and whether he will arrange for a room to be set aside for the use of the appellants' representatives?
Three waiting rooms are provided at Cecil Chambers, 86, Strand, for appellants and one for Ministry representatives. I am aware that the British Legion have representatives permanently employed there, but I regret that, as all the rooms allocated to the tribunals are now fully occupied, it is not possible to provide a room for counsel, solicitors, members of the British Legion and other persons attending on behalf of appellants.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this building is very inadequate for the purpose, very overcrowded, and very inconvenient for people who are waiting to have their cases heard, and will he inquire into the matter and see if more adequate accommodation can be obtained?
I will convey that representation.
Disability Committee
asked the Minister of Pensions what is the composition of his Pensions Disability Committee; whether this Committee's findings have ever been published; and, if not, whether he will undertake to publish the result of the work of this Committee, especially that part that concerns the recommendations made to the doctors on the special boards in connection with the examination of pensions for final awards?
The Disability Committee is composed of the Presidents of the Royal Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons and of other distinguished physicians and surgeons, together with the chief medical officers of my Department. The recommendations of the Committee with regard to the medical considerations which should be taken into account in determining the assessment of special classes of disability, in connection both with conditional and final awards, are issued from time to time to all medical boards and medical officers concerned in the assessment of pensions. It would not be to the public advantage, in my opinion, to make a general publication of these recommendations of the Committee, which are of a purely technical character and deal with such questions as symptoms and diagnosis.
Sickness Grants
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has withdrawn the Special Grants Committee Regulation allowing widows and children in certain cases a supplement for sickness; whether he is aware that since July, 1922, 700 odd sickness grants have been made; if he will say whether this allowance has been withdrawn at the request of the Special Grants Committee; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of continuing the same in order to avoid causing hardship amongst the widows and dependants?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. R. Richardson) on the 21st June, of which I am sending him a copy.
Have not the Special Grants Committee, by Statute, the power to make Regulations themselves, with the co-operation and approval of the right hon. Gentleman, and is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman has tried to force this Regulation upon them, that they have refused, and that, in defiance of them, he has maintained his right to force it upon them?
It is quite untrue to say that the decision rests with the Special Grants Committee. As the hon. Member is aware, it rests with the Government and this House.
Is it not the fact that the Special Grants Committee is a special statutory body, having the right to make its own Regulations, with the right hon. Gentleman's approval, and that a stage has now been reached when the Special Grants Committee have placed a minute upon the book objecting to the right hon. Gentleman's forcing Regulations upon them depriving people of pensions?
It is not the case that the Special Grants Committee have the right to decide such matters. It rests with this House and the Government.
May I ask for a ruling from you, Mr. Speaker, upon this point, which is one of considerable importance to a great mass of people in this country? The Special Grants Committee is a statutory body, having the right to make Regulations themselves, with the approval of the right hon. Gentleman. I asked the right hon. Gentleman a supplementary question last week, and my point is that the staff of the Ministry is misleading this House upon matters of grave importance to large numbers of people in this country. The right hon. Gentleman told me last week——
The question is a legal one, as between the Committee and the Department. I cannot decide that.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House to-night, after the ordinary business is through, on the ground that the Special Grants Committee is on the point of resigning because of the conduct of the Minister himself.
Committees (Procedure Regulations)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is proposed to lay upon the Table of the House amended Regulations relating to the meetings and general procedure of War Pensions Committees: and, if so, will he state when copies will be available for Members?
I hope to lay amending. Regulations upon the Table next week, and copies should be available to hon. Members shortly afterwards.
Need Pensions
asked the Minister of Pensions whether the concession recently announced in respect of need pensions that they should not go below 5s. applies only to those parents who were previously in receipt of the flat-rate pension; and, if so, will he state why these pensioners should receive preferential treatment over those parents who did not apply for a pension until they were actually in need of the same?
The concession to which the hon. Member refers is fully set out in the answer I gave to the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. F. Martin) on the 6th June. The concession by which existing holders1 of the pre-War dependence or flat-rate pension should be assured of the retention of these pensions cannot be used as an argument for reviving these two classes of pension for new claimants.
Educational Grants (West Cumberland)
asked the Minister of Pensions how many applications to the special grants committee for educational grants recommended by the West Cumberland War Pensions Committee were refused during the 12 months ending 30th April, 1923?
The number is five.
Irish Free State
asked the Minister of Pensions whether the War Pensions Acts, 1915 to 1921, are operative in the Irish Free State; and, if not, when is it proposed to place the administration of pensions in the Irish Free State on the same basis as in the other Dominions of the Empire?
The powers given and duties imposed on me by the War Pensions Acts for the administration of pensions are exercisable by me, as Minister of Pensions, in any part of His Majesty's Dominions. There is no single and common form of administration for parts of the Empire outside the United Kingdom. In each case the mode of administration most suitable in view of the local conditions is adopted.
also asked the Minister of Pensions for what area in the Irish Free State a war pensions committee has been constituted; how many members there are on the committee; what is the number of representatives of disabled ex-service men and of organised workpeople on the committee; whether it is proposed to abolish the 20 local war pensions committees in the Irish Free State and include their areas in that of the war pensions committee at present constituted; and, if so, what representation will be accorded to the districts at present administered by the local war pensions committees?
The Counties of Dublin, Cork, Kildare, Louth, Meath, and Wicklow were constituted an area for which a war pensions committee was set up under the War Pensions Act, 1921. The committee consists of 12 persons, of whom three are representatives of disabled ex-service men and dependants, and two are representatives of employers and workmen in industry. The local organisation of the districts outside the area referred to is at present under consideration.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will define the position of an ex-service man resident in the Irish Free State with regard to pensions granted by the Ministry of Pensions before the establishment of the Irish Free State; whether he consulted the Ministers of that Dominion before withdrawing the sickness granted to widows and orphans of deceased ex-service men in the Irish Free State; and whether the Ministers of that Dominion acquiesced in the withdrawal of the grant?
The pensioners referred to continue to receive the full rights and privileges of the Royal Warrant as formerly. The grants referred to in the last part of the question were payable out of the funds voted by the Imperial Parliament for the purposes of my Department, and, accordingly, no occasion arose to consult the Free State Government.
Gretna Hospital (Durham Patients)
asked the Minister of Pensions how many pensioners from the county of Durham are receiving treatment in the Ministry of Pensions hospital at Gretna; and what facilities exist for their being visited by relatives?
The number is 45. By arrangement with the medical superintendent, relatives may visit the hospital at any convenient time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the terrible distances that they have to travel, and the cost to people who want to see their relatives, and will he not now consider the question of keeping these patients in other hospitals, so that they may be nearer to their relatives?
All those points are borne in mind, but necessarily, as the number of our patients becomes smaller, it becomes more and more difficult to maintain a large number of hospitals scattered about the country. I will, however, bear the matter in mind.
Medical Officers
asked the Minister of Pensions if, seeing that Scotland, Wales, and Ireland insist that doctors appointed by the Ministry are of their own nationality, he will see that, in future, the doctors appointed in England shall be English; and will he give preference in selecting these medical men to ex-service doctors?
The assumption oh which this question is based is not correct. In making these appointments, the first consideration is efficiency, and, subject to that, it is and always has been the policy of the Ministry to give preference to those who have served in His Majesty's Forces, I may add that 94 per cent, of the whole-time medical officers employed by my Department have so served.
Birmingham Committee (Correspondence)
asked the Minister of Pensions if his attention has been called to the complaint made by the Birmingham and District War Pensions Committee of the serious delay in obtaining replies to the correspondence of the Committee, thereby retarding the work and useful functions of the Committee; and whether he will take the necessary steps to accelerate the action of his staff?
In the short time available I have been unable to find any ground for the suggestion of general delay made in the question, but I am having further inquiries made.
Aged Dependants (Medical Examination)
asked the Minister of Pensions where it is proposed to medically examine the aged dependants of deceased service men who are resident in Nottingham and its vicinity; and whether arrangements will be made for them to be examined at their own homes or in proximity thereto?
The existing arrangements, which will be continued, provide for these examinations to be made at Area Headquarters, Nottingham, or at the homes of the applicants when they are not in a condition to travel.
Government Departments
Ministry of Pensions (Regional Headquarters)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is proposed to amalgamate the Yorkshire regional headquarters of the Ministry with the Northern regional headquarters, and to close the regional headquarters at Leeds; and, if so, what are the reasons for the proposed change?
asked the Minister of Pensions why it has been decided to transfer the headquarters of the combined Northern and Yorkshire regions to Newcastle; whether, in view of the large volume of work in the county of Yorkshire, he will retain a regional office at Leeds; whether, if the case papers, the awards branch, the medical branch, and the finance branch are transferred to Newcastle it will be necessary to find accommodation in Newcastle for the Newcastle area office and Income Tax departments, at present housed in the regional headquarters, Newcastle; whether he is aware that the transfer of the Yorkshire work to Newcastle would result in some 200 married ex-service men being thrown out of employment, as they are unable to pay the cost of removal expenses, and could not afford to live in Newcastle and keep their homes going in Leeds; and whether, in view of the grave discontent aroused in Yorkshire at the proposal to close the regional office in Leeds, he will reconsider the decision?
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is contemplated to transfer the Yorkshire regional headquarters of the Ministry from Leeds to Newcastle and to amalgamate them with the Northern regional headquarters at present located there; whether he has considered the serious objections to this change from the point of view of public expediency, cost, and otherwise; whether he is aware that the area administered by the Yorkshire region from Leeds is nearly double that of the area administered by the Northern region from Newcastle; and what, if any, reasons there are which would justify or necessitate the proposed change?
The amalgamation of the Northern and Yorkshire regions has been decided upon as a measure of administrative reform. I wish to emphasise the fact that the pensioners in the neighhbourhood of Leeds will not be adversely affected in any way by the change, as an Area Office and Medical Boards will continue to be maintained in that city. I should not be justified in maintaining the two regions as1 separate units, in view of the administrative economy and advantages which will result. The total staff in the Yorkshire Regional Headquarters, which numbers less than 300, has shown a decrease of 75 during the past six months, and will continue to decrease. It is proposed to effect the transfer gradually in the autumn, and I hope that it will be possible to house the two staffs in the existing premises at Newcastle without removing the Area Office. I understand that the Office of Works' have other premises available for housing the Income Tax Office.
Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean to give us an assurance that pension cases in the Yorkshire area will not be in any way prejudiced by the removal? Is that a definite assurance?
I believe, myself, that most of the pensioners will never know that a change has been made at all.
Is it intended to transfer the present staff of the Leeds office to Newcastle, and will they be given special allowances in view of the increased expense?
The staff will be treated in the same way as on other occasions, but, from the point of view of employment, I may remind the hon. Member that we have been strongly urged by Labour Members to do away with all these regional offices.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is proposed to transfer the County of Cumberland from the northern region to the north-western region; whether the East and West Cumberland War Pensions Committees have been or will be consulted in the matter; and whether before any change is made he will ascertain that the pensioner does not suffer?
No change of the nature mentioned is at present contemplated, but I will bear the hon. Member's suggestions in mind should occasion arise.
asked the Minister of Pensions what is the number of pensioners from the area of the West Cumberland War Pensions Committee who, during the 12 months ending 31st March, 1923, have had to attend Newcastle for medical appeal boards, special medical boards, or pensions appeal tribunals; and whether it would be possible to arrange for the boards and the tribunals to sit at Workington at specified intervals, and thus avoid the long railway journey for the pensioners and the night's detention in Newcastle?
The numbers are approximately 65, 125, and 155, respectively, which, as the hon. Member will recognise, are not sufficient to justify the setting up of the additional machinery which he suggests.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these pensioners in many cases have to leave their homes before 5 o'clock in the morning to travel to Newcastle, or even to stay over night, and are thereby subjected to considerable expense and inconvenience?
I will certainly bear that point in mind, but our difficulty is that it would involve a delay of about two months to accumulate enough cases to provide a day's work for a medical appeal board in this area.
asked the Minister of Pensions when it is proposed to close the regional office at Nottingham; what arrangements will be made for boarding pensioners in the East Midlands region; and whether men appealing against the decisions of a re-survey board will have to attend a medical appeal board at Birmingham?
I am not in a position at present to state the precise date of the closing down of the Regional Headquarters at Nottingham. As I informed the hon. Member for Leicester West on the 29th March last, there will be no change in the existing arrangements in Nottingham for medical boards. This applies equally to appeal boards and to resurvey boards.
asked the Minister of Pensions how many of the staff of the Ministry employed at the Regional Headquarters in Nottingham have been offered employment at Birmingham; how many have accepted the same; how many men have been given notice terminating their appointment; how many married men have had to decline the offer of transfer to Birmingham because they were unable to pay the cost of removal from Nottingham to Birmingham; and whether he will state the principle on which his Department acts when they authorise the payment of removal expenses to a regional director in receipt of £1,875 a year from service pension and salary and decline to authorise the payment of removal expenses of a clerk in receipt of £3 a week?
All the temporary clerical staff at the Nottingham Regional Headquarters have been invited to express their wishes as to further employment, and 146 have applied for transfer to Birmingham or elsewhere; 19 clerks have been given notice and eight have resigned to take up other employment. Of the clerks who do not desire transfer 56 are married men. With regard to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave him on this subject on the 3rd May last.
Out of the number of 15 who do not wish to transfer, what reasons were given why they did not wish to accept the offer to transfer?
I have not available the reasons that were given.
In view of all this reorganisation in the Midland area, is there not now a good case for the re-establishment of the appeal tribunal at Sheffield?
The amalgamation of two regions has nothing to do with appeal tribunals. It is an entirely different point.
Can my hon. and gallant Friend give an assurance that he will not take away one regional headquarters and send it to another place without very full consideration of the advantages and disadvantages?
That is obviously my duty, and I have been going into it very fully.
Colonial Office
asked the Prime Minister whether, m view of the increasing international and Imperial importance of our great Dominions, he has considered the advisability of changing the name of the Colonial Office and the title of the Secretary of State who presides over it, so as to express more clearly the close relationship of that Department and the Secretary of State with the Dominions, as well as with the Colonies.
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given by my predecessor to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone on the 30th November, 1922.
Land Valuation Department
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what parts of the work of the Land Valuation Department will remain if Clause 27 of the Finance Bill, as amended in Committee, should become law; what reductions in the staff of the Department would be carried out in that eventuality; and what amount of money he expects to save as the result of such reduction of staff?
Apart from a comparatively small reduction in the clerical work in the office of the Controller of Stamps, the work of the Valuation Office of the Inland Revenue Department would not be diminished as a result of the Clause referred to becoming law. I cannot yet say what the saving in cost will amount to.
If the amount saved is practically negligible, was it worth while doing something to get that saving, which the right hon. Gentleman said was highly improper for him to do?
I am sure that I did not say that it was highly improper. In answer to a supplementary question, I said that the saving is not what is effected in Government offices, but is a saving to the pockets of the taxpayers, who have not to go to this expense.
Criminal Law Amendment Act
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if Section 3 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912, is still being enforced, and have the police special orders to bring to justice men who procure women and girls; and if he can give figures showing how many men have been privately whipped for offences committed under the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912, for the years 1913 to 1922, respectively?
I will send the hon. Member figures as to the number of men sentenced to whipping under the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912. The police require no special orders to carry out their primary duty of prosecuting offences against the law whenever sufficient evidence is available.
Transport
Tkaffic Regulation, Piccadilly
asked the Home Secretary if the police have some co-ordinating policy of stopping all east and west traffic for north and south traffic in Piccadilly simultaneously, or is every policeman his own master at every corner; and, if such is the case, will he take steps to devise some scheme of relief to the present obstruction?
The police have definite instructions as to the general principles upon which to regulate the flow of traffic, but the details for the various points differ according to the configuration of the roads and the road junctions, coupled with the class of traffic to be dealt with. Within the principles laid down, constables are expected to act with discretion according to the conditions which are constantly changing.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the conditions in Piccadilly to-day are worse than even in the days of horse traffic? It seems to me that the modern policeman has lost the knack altogether of regulating traffic. Cannot some coordinating scheme be introduced?
I think the difficulties that confront the police now are very much greater than in the days of horse traffic. I quite agree the question is one that requires a great deal of consideration, and I shall be very glad if my hon. Friend will give us the benefit of his assistance.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the efficiency of the police has the admiration of all people?
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the traffic here is better controlled than in any other capital in the world, and will he set up a committee to decide what is to be done to deal with the enormous and growing traffic in Piccadilly?
We have every reason to be proud of the efforts the police make in controlling the traffic in this great city. I cannot answer as to what the arrangements are like in other States, but as the matter is one of very serious importance, I am at the moment in close conversation with the Chief Commissioner and the Minister of Transport to see what can be done.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the method adopted in Broadway, New York, where the conditions are not very different from those in Piccadilly?
That has already been reported upon by the Chief Commissioner. I cannot admit that the conditions in New York are like those in London.
How long are we to tolerate the prehistoric horse in our streets?
London-Southend Koad
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he can say when the new road from London to Southend will be ready for use?
I am hopeful that some portions of the new London-Southend road may be opened to traffic this year; but in other sections where deep cuttings and high banks are encountered a longer time must elapse, and it may be 18 months before the road can be made available for traffic from end to end.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that only a small proportion of men are working on the road mentioned, and in view of the fact that so many navvies are out of employment, will he see that the work is speeded up and more men put on to it?
I will inquire into the point raised by the hon. Gentleman.
City and South London Railway (Tunnellers and Laboueers)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is aware that the tunnellers and labourers who were engaged on the re-construction of the City and South London Tube Railway ceased work about a month ago as a consequence of a dispute with the contractor, and that the dispute still continues; whether, as a consequence of the unfinished condition of the tunnel, there is reason to believe that the tunnel is unsafe for the running of trains; whether any steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to bring about a satisfactory settlement to the dispute now in progress; and whether he will take steps to prevent the further running of trains in this tube until steps have been taken to ensure public safety?
I understand that the dispute referred to arose out of a reduction of wages, which was agreed to by the Civil Engineering Construction Conciliation Board. I understand that the unions concerned are not represented on this Board, but that the Board has offered to meet in order to hear the claims of the men provided that work was resumed. Officers of the Ministry of Labour have been in touch with the parties throughout the dispute, but in the circumstances my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is not in a position to intervene I am informed that the dispute has not in any way affected the safety of the tunnels on the City and South London Railway.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that representations have been made to the men to send a gang down into the tube on account of the danger at a particular section of the tube. If that be so, does it not prove that there is a danger, and will he not take some action to safeguard the public interest against accidents in this tube?
If the hon. Member will be good enough to give me the information on which he bases his supplementary question, I will certainly have the matter looked into, but my reply is based upon the information supplied to me.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the men are willing to meet the employers at any moment, and as such a meeting would result in a settlement immediately, will he use his good offices to produce a meeting between the men and their employers?
I understand the Board have offered that if the men go to the Board, their grievances will be investigated.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the men have no confidence in the Board he mentions, but that they are willing to resume work at once if the Minister of Labour will undertake to set up conciliation arbitration?
I think that question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
May I ask——
Any further questions had better be put on the Paper.
Prisoners (Educational Classes)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to local education authorities who have organised classes for prisoners in His Majesty's prisons, and, in view of the importance of this work, whether he is contemplating making a grant equal to half the cost, to enable education authorities to continue and further extend this work?
I am glad to take this opportunity of expressing my high appreciation of the services rendered to the Prison Commissioners by the school teachers and others who have come forward as volunteers to assist in this work. Their help is the more welcome as it has unfortunately been found impossible to provide public funds for the purpose.
Political Meetings
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that in various parts of the country police officers demand the names of speakers at political meetings; whether any instructions enjoining this practice have been sent from his Department; if so, whether these instructions are general or relate to meetings held by particular organisations; and what authority is there for such demands being made?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. No such instructions have been issued from the Home Office.
Juvenile Offenders
asked the Home Secretary what number of boys and girls under 16 years of age have, during the past four years, been sent to prison on remand and not (subsequently received under sentence of imprisonment; and which Courts most frequently adopted this method?
During the last four years, 175 boys and girls under 16 have been sent to prison on remand who were not subsequently received under sentence of imprisonment. Of this number, 29 came from Bristol, 25 from the Metropolitan district, and 14 from Newcastle. I am glad to say that the figures show a substantial reduction in the last two years.
Royal Air Force
Pageant (Police Arrangements)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Royal Air Force pageant is to take place at Hendon on the 30th of June; and whether the special attention of his Department and of the Committee for the control of crowds can be directed to this function in order that the extreme crowding and difficulty of access experienced in former years may be obviated?
I am aware that this pageant is to be held on Saturday next, and I have drawn the attention of the Committee to it so that they may have an opportunity of studying the arrangements if they think it would assist them to do so. The police, who are responsible for the control of traffic to and from the ground, are making all possible arrangements to prevent any avoidable delay and to reduce the inconvenience to a minimum.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that along the principal roads leading to Hendon Aerodrome a half is cut off by an immense hoarding, and only one line of traffic can possibly proceed along the road? Cannot something be done at the eleventh hour to deal with it?
The Commissioner is taking the matter into consideration, and anything that can be done in the emergency I am certain will be done.
Naval Wing
asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has been reached on the subject of the control of the naval wing of the Royal Air Force; if so, what is it; and whether any steps in the matter will be taken before Parliament has been consulted?
No, Sir. I cannot at present add anything to the I answer which I gave on Monday last.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question?
I have answered that, I think.
No. The right hon. Gentleman could not give us any assurance on that point. Can he do so now?
I said that it was extremely unlikely that the House would be faced with a fait accompli , but that the matter can only be discussed on the Air Estimates.
Can the right hon. Gentleman go a little bit further now, and say whether he can give us an assurance that we shall have an opportunity of discussion before anything is done?
When will the report be received, as the Air Estimates may be taken before long?
I am afraid that I cannot say, but I hope before very long.
Tobacco and Cigarettes (Sale)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider an alteration in the present law regarding the sale of tobacco and cigarettes so as to allow licensed victuallers to sell the same during the time their houses are open for the sale of refreshments?
The suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member will be noted for consideration when legislation amending the Shops (Early Closing) Act is undertaken. As I informed him in reply to a previous question last week, it would not be possible for the Government to promote such legislation at the present time.
How much longer are we to tolerate these Regulations which prevent people buying cigarettes when they can buy chocolates?
We cannot argue that now.
Are we to understand from that answer that the Government contemplate legislation extending the hours of opening?
No, the hon. Member must not understand more than I have said. It is not possible for the Government to promote any such legislation at the present time.
"Daily Herald" Office (Police Visits)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the "Daily Herald" newspaper has been raided by the police on several occasions recently; how many times this paper has been raided; by whose order and authority were those raids carried out; and what was their object?
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, in addition to raiding the printing premises of the "Daily Herald," police officers have daily interviewed members of the staff demanding from certain of them signed replies to question.; is he aware that persons so interrogated were unable to secure legal advice and were not warned that any statements made might be used against them; and if these proceedings were taken under his instructions?
The City of London police visited the "Daily Herald" office on the 22nd instant in the execution of a warrant issued from the Mansion House, at the instance of the Director of Public Prosecutions, for the purpose of seizing copies of a photograph which was believed to contravene the Official Secrets Act. Subsequently, I understand, an inspector has visited these premises in order to obtain further information regarding the suspected offence against the Act. In giving instructions for this to be done, the Commissioner acted in accordance with Section 6 of the Act, in pursuance of his duty, and not on any instructions from me. As regards the second and third parts of Question 37, I would point out that Section 6 of the Official Secrets Act, 1920, provides that it shall be the duty of every person to give on demand … any information relating to a suspected offence, and that if he fails to do so, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the copy of the photograph in question in the paper, and is he aware that it cannot possibly give any information at all to anyone?
I have seen the copy, but, as to the second question, I am not aware.
Is this not purely a vexatious raid?
Prudential Assurance Company
asked the Home Secretary what action the Public Prosecutor proposes to take with regard to the Prudential Assurance Company in the matter of their lapsed War Bond policies numbering 300,000, under some of which money has been obtained by fraudulent misrepresentation, as disclosed in the recent County Court case?
The Director of Public Prosecutions is making inquiries into the matter.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the comment of the Judge, and how much longer is he going to consider taking action? When he has done dealing with the "Daily Herald," I suppose he will direct his mind to more important matters?
I am sure the hon. Member would desire that we should take sufficient time to arrive at a correct decision.
Coroner's Inquest (Mary Frances Tallis)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the circumstances of an inquest held upon the body of one, Mary Frances Tallis, by Mr. Coroner D. J. Treasure; whether he has inquired into such circumstances; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I am inquiring into the case and will let the hon. Member know the result.
Oil Tanks, Brixham (Conversion)
asked the Home Secretary whether any application has been received from the Anglo-American Oil Company at Brixham for permission to convert the tanks in the town now used for crude oil into storage tanks for petrol?
No such application has been received in my Department. The responsible licensing authority under the Petroleum Acts is the local authority, to whom any application by the Anglo-American Oil Company would be made.
Congleton (Chief Constable)
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that the watch committee of the borough of Congleton, with a police force of only 13 men all told, is now advertising for a chief constable; and does he propose to take such action as may be necessary to merge these small forces into larger ones with a view to economy and better efficiency?
I am aware that the appointment of a chief constable is contemplated, the local authority being unwilling to enter into an agreement for the consolidation of the borough force with the County Constabulary. As the law stands, I have no jurisdiction in the matter, and I see no opportunity for passing legislation during the present Session.
In view of the fact that the Home Secretary's approval has to be obtained for the appointment of a chief constable, will he defer approval pending the consideration of possible merging?
I do not think lean go as far as that. I think the matter, if dealt with at all, must be dealt with by legislation.
In view of the Home Secretary's approval being absolutely necessary before the appointment of any chief constable is made, surely it is up to him, as the country has to pay half the expense, to withhold his approval in a case such as this, where it is obviously in the interests of economy not to make the appointment?
Omnibus Drives (Police Prosecution)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is now in a position to state the result of his inquiries respecting the evidence upon which the police acted in the case of Evan Morris, an omnibus driver, who was prosecuted by the police for being drunk in charge of an omnibus, and whose case, on appeal, was dismissed with costs against the police?
I understand that the police action in this case was due to complaints made by passengers on the omnibus which defendant was driving, and was justified by the evidence they had before them.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman issue some instructions so as to secure that charges should not be lightly brought, as they appear to be, with very serious consequences to the man concerned?
I think the hon. Member must realise the number of different instructions I should have to issue, having regard to the varying circumstances. Perhaps he will favour me with a draft of the kind of instructions he thinks I should issue.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the driver gets possession of his licence again, and, further, will he consult those people who complained, with a view to compensating the driver?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the passengers did not complain, but the would-be passengers?
My information was, as given in the answer, that the complaints were made by passengers, and I do not think it makes much difference whether it was the passengers or the would-be passengers.
It makes a great deal of difference to the man, for whom we want some sort of protection.
Is there no fund out of which compensation could be paid in this case? It is a very hard case.
That has, I think, been answered already.
Education
University of Wales
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the serious difficulties which have resulted in the case of the Welsh University from the sudden curtailment of the annual grant on the £ for £ basis; and whether, seeing that such a curtailment made at the instance of one only of the parties to the arrangement entered into in 1918 is held in some quarters to be a breach of faith, what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the interests of the university?
There has been no curtailment in the annual grant paid by the Treasury to the University of Wales. A large part of the annual Treasury grant has now for several years been based on the annual contribution made to the funds of the university by the produce of a 1d. rate over the whole of Wales, and the total grant paid to the university in respect of the last completed academic year was larger than ever before; indeed, a sum of £1,053 was actually added to the Treasury grant for the current academic year, in view of the increase in the produce of the 1d. rate. The last part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the curtailment of the Government equivalent grant in respect of private benefactions involves a loss to one of the university colleges of £1,300 a year, and, probably, to the university of about £4,000 or £5,000.
The hon. Member had better give me that information. It does not coincide with the answer I have just given, and I think my facts are correct.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that some of the Welsh county councils have decided not to contribute towards the support of the university the product of a 1d. rate, in accordance with the arrangement made between the representatives of the Welsh county councils and the representatives of the university authorities; and whether, having regard to the fact that their action involves an injustice to those councils which carry out the terms of the arrangement, and also to the fact that if a similar course were adopted by the remaining councils the work of the university could not be carried on, he will consider the advisability of making the contribution a matter of statutory obligation on all the county councils?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, but I am making inquiry as to the facts. A large part of the present grant to the University of Wales is given on the understanding that all the local education authorities in the Principality agree to place the produce of a 1d. rate unconditionally at the disposal of the University. Any breach of this understanding would make it necessary for the Treasury to consider afresh the whole question of their grant, and the Government would greatly regret being forced to this step by the withdrawal of one or more local authorities from' an arrangement which was understood to meet the wishes of Wales as a whole. With regard to the suggestion contained in the last part of the question, I do not think that it is for the Government to initiate legislation to compel local authorities in Wales to contribute to the support of their national University.
May I ask whether, having regard to the fact that the time allowed for discussion on the Education Vote was totally inadequate, and, in consequence, there was no opportunity of referring to any grade or aspect of education in Wales where the financial position of education, especially of higher education, is a very serious one, and, further, may I ask—
This is not the time for a speech.
Teachees' Salaries, London
asked the President of the Board of Education on what date the Board of Education received a communication from the London County Council with regard to the status and salaries of craft teachers in London County Council special schools; whether he is aware that in many cases the salaries of these teachers have been reduced over 40 and nearly 50 per cent.; and whether, having regard to the hard- ship which exists in the cases of many of these teachers, the Board will be able to reach an early decision in order that their salaries may be adjusted?
The latest official letter which the Board have received from the London County Council on this matter was dated 18th April, 1923. Upon the receipt of that letter the Board found it necessary to institute further inquiries. They have been throughout in close communication with the London County Council upon the matter. I hope to give a decision at an early date.
Does the noble Lord not think two months rather a long time for a simple inquiry like that, especially when the two authorities are so very near, the county council being on the other side of the River?
It depends rather on how simple the attitude of the London County Council is.
Teachers' Superannuation
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the case of schools whose claims for admission to the benefits of the Superannuation Act has been provisionally rejected is being reconsidered by Lord Onslow's Commission; and whether such schools should immediately renew their application or await the Report of that Commission?
Lord Emmott's Committee do not, as I understand, propose to consider the merits of particular applications for approval under Section 18 (vii) of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1918. No doubt, however, they will review the working of the Section generally; and I doubt very much whether it would be worth while renewing former applications until the Report of that Committee is available.
Secondary Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education in how many secondary schools in England and Wales the number of children on the roll exceeds the recognised accommodation; the total number of children in such excess of pupils over accommodation; and what steps, if any, he is taking to secure adequate accommodation in these cases?
It has not been the practice of the Board to assign to secondary schools a specific recognised accommodation, and I am, therefore, unable to give the figures asked for it is, however, the case that, generally speaking, the secondary schools have been filled to the limit of their capacity, and in some cases even beyond that point. All reasonable proposals for providing additional accommodation are receiving my most careful consideration, and the progress which is being made is not unsatisfactory.
What is the Noble Lord going to do in respect of providing secondary school accommodation for blind boys and girls?
That does not arise here.
Supplementary Teachers
asked the President of the Board of Education how many supplementary teachers are employed in elementary schools in England and Wales, giving the figures for urban and rural districts separately; and if he can state the qualifications for recognition as a supplementary teacher?
As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Gentleman's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The number of supplementary teachers employed in public elementary schools in England and Wales on 31st March, 1922, was as follows:
In urban areas (including urban parts of areas under county councils) 3,727 In rural areas ( i.e ., rural parts of areas under county councils)., rural parts of areas under county councils) 9,137 In schools recognised under Section 15, Education Act, 1902 (not maintained by local education authorities) 32 Total 12,896
Specific academical qualifications for supplementary teachers are not pre- scribed; but conditions governing their employment and recognition are set out in Schedule I.D. of the Code.
Reparations and Ruhr Occupation
asked the Prime Minister whether a reply has been received from the French Government to our recent Note on German Reparations and the occupation of the Ruhr Valley; what is the nature of the reply; and when the matter will be laid before Parliament?
I can at present add nothing to the answer which I gave on the 21st June to the hon. and gallant Member.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect a reply, in view of the grave consequences of further delay?
I am afraid I cannot say. I shall be very glad to get a reply.
In view of the very serious condition of the Lancashire cotton industry at the present time, will the right hon. Gentleman do all he possibly can to expedite a settlement?
Ascot Races (Cost of Police)
asked the Home Secretary the number of Metropolitan police of all ranks employed during the recent race meeting at Ascot; the aggregate cost in respect of pay, extra pay or allowances, travelling, or maintenance; whether the entire cost is charged to the Metropolitan ratepayers; and, if so, why the expenses of this special duty should not be borne by the racecourse authorities?
The number of men varied from day to day, the maximum being about 600, apart from those employed in the regulation of traffic within the Metropolitan police district. The cost, approximately £4,000, was almost wholly borne by the various racecourse authorities.
Children (Insurable Age Limit)
asked the Prime Minister if urgent representations have been received from the friendly societies most affected calling attention to the necessity for an amendment to the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, to bring it into conformity with the terms of the Industrial Assurance Bill recently before the House, in respect of the insurable limit of age for children between three and ten years; whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill during the Autumn Session to give effect to the promise made by the Solicitor-General, so that such proposed amending Act shall become operative from 1st January, 1924?
The Government will give this matter full consideration in connection with the arrangements for the Autumn Session.
Channel Tunnel
asked the Prime Minister if he will say what is the attitude of the Government towards the proposal to construct a Channel tunnel?
The Government are not at present prepared to consider this question.
Does not this in some way alter the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor (Mr Bonar Law)—that the Government were ready to consider the matter, when the finance was arranged?
It is a slightly different answer, I agree; but the Government, at the moment, have not the time to consider the question.
Scotland
National Library
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to accept in the near future the transfer of the Advocate's Library as the basis of a National Library for Scotland?
Yes, Sir. The financial difficulty which has hitherto stood in the way of acceptance by the Government of the very generous offer by the Faculty of Advocates has now been removed by the munificence of Mr. Alexander Grant, of Messrs. McVitie and Price, biscuit manufacturers, Edin burgh, who has offered a sum of £100,000 as a permanent endowment of the proposed Scottish National Library. This great gift enables the Government to accept the offer of the Faculty, subject to the satisfactory arrangement of the details of the scheme, and intimation to this effect is being made to the Faculty.
I see every reason to anticipate that, thanks to the public spirit of the faculty, coupled with the generosity of Mr. Grant, Scotland will soon be in possession of a library in scope and character well worthy of the style of the National Library of Scotland.
Where will these very valuable books be housed? Will they still be housed in the Advocate's Library?
I am afraid that I cannot answer that question. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put it down.
Deportation to Cork
( by Private Notice ) asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether it is the fact that a Mr. McPeak, of Parkhead, a Glasgow citizen, has been deported to Cork without trial, and, if so, on whose authority has this been done?
I have no information regarding this matter, but I am making inquiries, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.
Royal Irish Constabulary (Pre-War Pensions)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make the promised announcement respecting an increase in the allowance of pre-War pensions, and in particular to pre-War pensions of the Royal Irish Constabulary, whose average pension for all ranks is only £42 per annum, and who are, in the great majority of cases, precluded from augmenting this by engaging in civil occupations?
His Majesty s Government have now examined the scheme submitted by the Special Committee appointed to inquire into the matter. A Bill giving effect to the scheme is now in active preparation and will be introduced very shortly.
Meantime can the right hon. Gentleman make any statement to give some reassurance to these sorely tried men?
Of course, everybody is sorely tried. I hope to present the Bill very shortly to the House. Perhaps my hon. Friend would wait a few days.
Will the proposed Bill be taken this Session?
This year. There will not be much chance for it before the Autumn Session.
Will the pre-War pensions of English police also be considered?
I think that my hon. Friend also had better wait for a short time.
Entertainments Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the date at which the new concessions with regard to Entertainments Duty at agricultural and horticultural shows will come into force; can he give an exact definition as to how far the exemption applies; and does it include a band and side shows in cases when the whole of the net proceeds are devoted to agricultural and horticultural purposes?
The concession in question will take effect from the date on which the Finance Bill becomes law. As regards the precise scope and effect of the concession I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the Clause which I am placing upon the Order Paper to-morrow.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to state the exact amount of revenue obtained under the Entertainments Duty from 3d., 4d., 6d., 1s., 2s. 6d., 5s., 7s. 6d., 10s. 6d., and £1 1s. charges for admission or seats?
I regret that the information asked for is not available.
Irish Free State (Income Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a person having a residence in the Irish Free State and also in the United Kingdom is chargeable with Income Tax by the Irish Free State on income and rents drawn from Irish sources and by the British Government with rents and income drawn from English investments; whether it is necessary to make similar statements comprising the total investments in both countries to both Governments; and to which of the two Governments should Super-tax be paid?
As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
Under the British Income Tax law a resident in Great Britain and Northern Ireland is chargeable to Income Tax on all his income, wherever arising. It is understood that a similar principle applied, mutatis mutandis , in the case of the Income Tax law in force in the Irish Free State. It follows that a person resident in both countries will be liable both to British Income Tax and to Irish Free State Income Tax in respect of all his income whether arising in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Irish Free State, or elsewhere, and, broadly speaking, will be required to include the same income in his statements of income m both countries. Such a person will be liable to Super-tax in both countries if his total income liable to British Income Tax and his total income liable to Irish Free State Income Tax each exceeds the Super-tax limit. My hon. and gallant Friend is of course aware of the arrangements made between the British and Irish Free State Governments for granting relief in respect of double taxation to Income Tax (including Super-tax).
Universities (Imperial Grant)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that £300,000 was taken from the annual Parliamentary grant in aid of the universities in 1922–23 without this House having an opportunity of discussing the matter and expressing its opinion thereon, and that, although the Geddes cut in education was reduced from 20 per cent, to 10 per cent., the university cut was not reduced, but remained at 20 per cent.; and whether, in view of the danger to national status, professional and commercial, resulting from any curtailment of higher education and having regard to the financial difficulties now being faced by many of the universities, steps will be taken to ensure the return of this sum to the university grant?
The Vote for grants for recurrent purposes for the universities and university colleges was, for 1920–21, £1,000,000. For 1921–22 it was raised to £1,500,000. It was not found possible to repeat the latter figure, and for 1922–23 the Vote was £1,280,000 less the Irish grants of £111,000, and this provision of £1,169,000 has been repeated in the current year, representing a reduction of about 16 per cent, on the provision made in 1921–22. The increases and decreases in this Vote are not regulated in any way by those occurring in the Vote for public education. The claims of the universities for additional assistance must necessarily be considered in relation to the other calls on the resources of the Exchequer.
Mail Service Contracts (United States)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the journey from Southampton to New York can be done in the same time via Halifax, with the advantage of a day's less sea voyage, better wharfage arrangements, and the advantage of a ship being turned round in shorter time, he will, in the allocation of mail contracts, seek to encourage British lines to use British routes and thus do away with the present grave difficulties affecting immigrants to the United States of America and the inconveniences caused by American domestic legislation being applied to other nationalities?
My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General has been asked to answer this question. The contracts for this important mail service provide for the conveyance of the mails by the fastest ships proceeding direct to New York. He is advised that, although the sea voyage by the Halifax route is shorter, yet allowing for the train journey from Halifax to New York and the extra handling of the mails, a diversion to Halifax would entail some delay and considerable inconvenience and expense as compared with the direct route. He is not therefore prepared to initiate a change, but if the companies desire to utilise the port of Halifax he will of course give the matter detailed consideration.
Are these contracts annual contracts?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Russia (First Workers' Loan)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he has any knowledge of the guarantee given by the people's commissar for finance of the Russian Soviet Republic for the prompt payment of interest and repayment of principal on the bonds of the first workers' loan to Soviet Russia, which is being issued by the International Workers' Relief for Soviet Russia Industrial and Trading Company, Limited, incorporated in Germany, of 11, Unter den Linden, Berlin, and 26, Bedford Row, W.C.1?
The guarantee to which the hon. Member refers is presumably that contained in a decree of the Council of People's Commissaries, dated the 28th September, 1922, which has been published in the official collection of Soviet decrees. If the hon. Member wishes, I shall be happy to give him a translation of the decree.
Empire Wireless Chain
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why the Marconi Company are required to have a licence from His Majesty's Government in order to erect high-power wireless stations to form an Empire wireless chain; are conditions at present being negotiated which will exclude competition from other wireless companies; will conditions be inserted in the agreement which will create a monopoly for the Marconi Company; and will this agreement be laid upon the Table of the House before any of its terms are enforced?
My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General has been asked to answer this question. A licence from the Postmaster-General is required by Section 1 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1904. The conditions now being negotiated with the Marconi Company will not exclude competition by other companies; nor will they create a monopoly for that company. I hope to lay the agreement on the Table of the House as soon as it is completed.
Can we have assurance that no agreement will be finally signed until the House has had an opportunity of debating this question?
I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to that suggestion.
Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that county councils are prohibited from instituting proceedings against offenders under The Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1906, unless and until the Ministry has given its' consent; and, if so, whether he is prepared to bring in a Bill to remove this restriction?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am taking steps to appoint a Departmental Committee to inquire into the working of the Act referred to, and to report as to what Amendments, if any, are desirable.
Will the Committee take into consideration the fact that owing to this restriction and the difficul- ties arising from the administrative Clauses, the Act is a dead letter with all the county councils?
That is rather begging the question. I am sure the Committee will take into consideration all relevant matters.
Canadian Cattle
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can say if any and what reduction in the price of meat to consumers has been effected by the importation of Canadian cattle; whether he is aware that instead of Canadian stores fat cattle have been imported and have been advertised for sale as fat cattle within a fortnight of landing; and whether he will take steps to prevent this laxity of inspection at our ports by giving instructions that the terms of the Act shall be strictly enforced and fat cattle shall be slaughtered at the port of entry?
I am informed that the retail prices of beef, as compiled by the Ministry of Labour, have shown no reduction since the 1st April. I am aware that some Canadian cattle have been offered for sale as fat cattle within a short period after landing. I understand that the buyer intended to graze the cattle for about two months, but falling prices led him to change his mind. Explicit instructions have, however, been given to my inspectors at the ports as to the discrimination to be observed between stores and fats, and I am confident that there is no laxity in carrying out the instructions. I may mention that during the week ending 16th instant, out of 1,119 Canadian cattle consigned as stores and landed at Birkenhead, no less than 686 were retained for slaughter in the landing place.
Local Authorities (Wages)
asked the Minister of Health what regulations there are, if any, issued by the Ministry regulating the wages paid by local authorities to their employés; what is the reason that the members of the Bethnal Green Borough Council have been surcharged for paying over the trade union rate to some of their staff; and how far local authorities have discretion in such matters?
No regulations of the kind referred to have been issued by my right hon. Friend's Department. I understand that the district auditor has made a surcharge, but the Minister has not seen the statement of his reasons for the decision. As regards the last part of the question, the matter is already before the High Court in connection with another surcharge, and my right hon. Friend could not properly express an opinion on the point.
Health Insurance Benefits (Age Limit)
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the hardship inflicted upon health insured persons who are disqualified from sickness and disablement benefit on attaining the age of 70 years, he will consider the desirability of introducing amending legislation on this point, especially in those cases where no benefit has been drawn prior to their attaining 70 years?
The extension of the right to sickness and disablement benefits to persons over the age of 70 would require an increase in the weekly contributions, and would present serious administrative difficulties to approved societies in the application of the test of incapacity for work. In view of these considerations, and of the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Acts, legislation to the effect suggested by the hon. Member is not contemplated.
Housing (Allotment Land)
asked the Minister of Health if, in connection with official housing schemes put forward by local authorities for his sanction, he will make a condition that, where allotment land is taken for the purpose of building, alternative accommodation shall be provided for the dispossessed allotment holders?
In the case of land specifically acquired for allotments the consent of the Ministers of Agriculture and Health is ordinarily required before the land can be appropriated for other purposes, and where necessary a condition has been attached to the consent that alternative land should be provided for allotments. Allotment land held under an Inclosure Act can only be taken for housing purposes subject to the conditions laid down in Section 73 of the Housing Act, 1909. As regards land acquired for some other purpose where temporary use for allotments has been permitted, the Allotments Act, 1922, affords protection to the tenants as regards reasonable notice and compensation. In the above circumstances it does not appear to my right hon. Friend that any further action is necessary.
Postage (Inland Printed Paper Rate)
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the extensive use now made of duplicating machines for producing commercial and business circulars and notices, he will consider amending the Post Office Regulations for inland printed paper rate to permit of notices and circulars so printed to be posted under the same conditions as notices and circulars printed by the ordinary methods of printing?
The hon. Member probably has in mind the rule that circulars in imitation of typewriting can be posted as printed papers only if not less than 20 copies, identical in text, i.e., as regards the printed or reproduced portion, are handed in at one time at a Post Office counter. With the exception of this requirement, such circulars are already granted the same privileges-as circulars printed in characters not resembling those of the typewriter. The circulars in question are in many cases difficult to distinguish from typewritten letters, and the object of the Regulation is to ensure that a circular shall not be mistaken for an ordinary typewritten letter and surcharged at the letter rate. My right hon. Friend regrets that he is unable to modify the rule.
Is there any reason why the Postmaster-General is so often absent, when important questions relating to his Department are asked?
My right hon. Friend has many important duties to perform outside the House.
Is it not the case that when the Ascot week was in pro- gress the right hon. Gentleman was alleged to be there, instead of in this House?
Has your attention, Mr. Speaker, been called to the fact that on three recent occasions when questions have been addressed to the Postmaster-General he has not been present; and has the House any protection against this sort of thing? [An HON. MEMBER: "On strike!"]
It is well known the Postmaster-General has special duties outside this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Racing!"]
Unemployment
Trade Disputes
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has received any Report from the Committee appointed last year to inquire into the possibility of amending the existing law which debars the innocent victims of a trade dispute from receiving payment of the unemployment benefit for which they have contributed?
The Committee have not yet submitted a Report. A further meeting of the Committee is to be held to-morrow.
In view of the many months the Committee has been sitting, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to them, with a view to having the Report expedited?
No one would rejoice more than I if the Report could be expedited, but, as the hon. Member knows, this is a very difficult subject.
In the event of the Report being favourable to that course, will the right hon. Gentleman give back pay to the men concerned?
Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour whether it is the settled policy of his Department to stop unemployment benefit in the case of workmen refusing work in distant towns where the rate is below that of the town in which they reside, and irrespective of whether there are men out of work in the town to which it is proposed to send them, or in other places contiguous to it?
No, Sir. The Employment Exchanges do not attempt to send men to a distance if they can find suitable men locally for the vacancy, and, in the absence of suitable local men, every effort is made to find the nearest suitable men. If the rate of wage offered is the proper one for the district, the Act does not entitle a man to refuse the job merely because the rate is lower than that in the man's home district. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the interests of workmen are safeguarded by the right of appeal against disallowance of benefit, which they or their associations have, to the Court of Referees and, in certain cases, to the Umpire.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many of these cases there are scores of men out of work, for whom work is available in towns much nearer than the towns to which it is sought to bring them?
My hon. Friend says "in many of these cases." If he will draw my attention to any particular cases in which the facts are as he alleges, I will be glad to look into them, but the practice is as I have indicated in my answer.
Is it not the fact that many cases of the kind I have indicated have been put before the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and that no action has been taken?
As I have explained over and over again, the remedy is laid down in the Act, and is by procedure before the Court of Referees and the Umpire. His decision is final and I cannot interfere with it. The remedy is always open to the hon. Member and his friends to bring a case before the Referees and before the Umpire.
Railwaymen (Eyesight Test)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will include eyesight failure in the Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act owing to the rapidly increasing number of railwaymen who are unable to pass the present eyesight test, thus losing both promotion and position, and that such eyesight failure is due and arises from the work and the conditions under which it is performed?
I have been asked to answer this question. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) on the 14th instant. I would also draw his attention to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport in the reply which he gave on Tuesday last to a question asked by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Dr. Chapple).
British Empire Exhibition
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the approval of those responsible for the moneys subscribed or guaranteed towards the expenses of the British Empire Exhibition was obtained before the sum of £14,000 was given to Mr. Wintour as compensation for loss of his temporary employment in connection with the exhibition; and, if not, what power had the Executive Committee to spend so much money for such a purpose?
Under the Articles of Association of the British Empire Exhibition, the Executive Council is empowered to carry on all the business of the Association, and to delegate its powers to any committee or sub-committee which it may appoint. In the matter to which my hon. and learned Friend refers, the Board acted under the powers so delegated to them by the Council; and they also consulted, as I stated in reply to a question on the same subject on the 25th instant, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, as Chairman of the Executive Council, and obtained his approval. It was not necessary in these circumstances also to invite the approval of the guarantors.
In view of the fact that a very large number of the guarantors only guaranteed their various sums in the belief, rightly or wrongly, that our Government were being responsible for the exhibition, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman lay on the Table now the agreement under which Mr. Wintour was paid his £14,000 for an appointment which must, in any case, have ended next year, a sum which certainly seems to the man in the street to be an exorbitant amount to give to a man for making a mess of things?
May I ask whether, on grounds of contract, Mr. Wintour would have had a remedy at law had an arrangement such as that referred to in the question not been reached?
That is so. He would have had a remedy at law. In answer to the question of the hon. and gallant Member for Holborn (Sir J. Remnant), I must have notice of that.
Are not two hon. Members of this House on the Committee, and have they no responsibility for this contract? Are they in any way responsible to the Government?
Is it not in order to ask the responsible Minister to lay on the Table an Agreement which must be in his control, or should be, for the benefit of hon. Members of this House?
The hon. and gallant Member has already asked that question.
On a point of Order. The Minister says he must have notice, but surely he requires no notice at all of that question.
It would be an unusual step to take, and he must have time to consider it.
May I have an answer to my question?
I am not sure how many Members of Parliament are on the Executive, but there are some, and I shall be pleased to send the hon. and gallant Member a list if he wishes it.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Mr. Wintour, who has been retired from the British Empire Exhibition, received about £35,000 on a similar retirement from the Inter-Allied Trade and Banking Corporation, Limited, about two years ago; and who was responsible for his subsequent appointment to the British Empire Exhibition?
As regards the first part of the question, I know nothing of the financial arrangements between Mr. Wintour and the Inter-Allied Trade and Banking Corporation. I think, however, I ought to read an extract from a letter addressed by Sir Henry Birchenough, formerly chairman of the corporation, to my predecessor in the Department of Overseas Trade in the late Government:
"Mr. Wintour's connection with the Inter-Allied Trade and Banking Corporation terminated owing to a change of policy consequent upon the acquisition by a new group of the controlling interest in that firm, and the circumstances connected therewith in no way reflected upon Mr. Wintour's ability—or integrity."
As regards the second part of the question, the Executive Council of the British Empire Exhibition were responsible for Mr. Wintour's appointment.
Is public money involved in these transactions of £14,000 and £35,000?
There is a contingent liability for public money, but I hope, if the Exhibition be a success, that no public money will be involved.
Who is Mr. Wintour?
Is it becoming a habit to have these big sums given out to individuals?
Who was responsible for the appointment of Mr. Wintour?
Who is this sponger?
Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman's use of the term "contingent liability" refer to both the £14,000 and the £35,000?
It has nothing whatever to do with the £35,000.
Is there any other job in view for Mr. Wintour?
Is this the same gentleman who was Secretary to the Ministry of Food?
Yes.
Orphanage Catastrophe, Calcutta
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has received any information as to the catastrophe which occurred yesterday afternoon at the Mahommedan Orphanage, Harrison Road, Calcutta, and whether he will make a statement on the subject.
I have no information to add to the very full statements on the subject which have appeared in the Press. This institution is not, I understand, supported out of Government funds.
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister what will be the business for next week?
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday—Finance Bill: Report and Third Reading.
Thursday—Supply: India Office Vote.
Friday—Second Readings of the following Bills: Public Works Loans; Isle of Man (Customs); East India Loans; Expiring Laws (Continuance); and, if time permit, consideration of other Orders on the Paper.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether it has been possible to find a place for the Intoxicating Liquor (Sale to Persons under Eighteen) Bill, which is really an agreed Bill?
Could not that Bill be discussed on Scotch Supply, as it refers to the supply of Scotch?
It will be on the paper to-morrow, and will be taken if it be reached. If it should not be reached, I cannot give a date at the moment, nor say whether it will be possible to take it next week, but it is the Government's intention to take that Bill as soon as it can.
Is it intended to suspend the Four o'clock Rule on Friday for the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill?
I hope they will all expire by four o'clock.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Bill [ Lords ] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister .]
The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 138.
Division No. 254.] AYES. [3.50 p.m. Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent Ellis, R. G. M'Connell, Thomas E. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Ainsworth, Captain Charles Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) Falcon, Captain Michael Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Margesson, H. D. R. Apsley, Lord Fawkes, Major F. H. Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Ford, Patrick Johnston Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Forestier-Walker, L. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Astor, Viscountess Furness, G. J. Moles, Thomas Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Ganzoni, Sir John Molloy, Major L. G. S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gardiner, James Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gates, Percy Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Murchison, C. K. Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barnston, Major Harry Goff, Sir R. Park Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Becker, Harry Greaves-Lord, Walter Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Nield, Sir Herbert Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gretton, Colonel John Oman, Sir Charles William C. Berry, Sir George Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gwynne, Rupert S. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Blades, Sir George Rowland Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Paget, T. G. Blundell, F. N. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Halstead, Major D. Penny, Frederick George Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Brass, Captain W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Perkins, Colonel E. K. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Harvey, Major S. E. Perring, William George Brittain, Sir Harry Hawke, John Anthony Pielou, D. P. Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Preston, Sir W. R. Buckingham, Sir H. Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) Privett, F. J. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Raeburn, Sir William H. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Herbert, S. (Scarborough) Raine, W. Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel Butcher, Sir John George Hiley, Sir Ernest Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Butt, Sir Alfred Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Rees, Sir Beddoe Cadogan, Major Edward Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remnant, Sir James Cautley, Henry Strother Hopkins, John W. W. Rentoul, G. S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Rhodes, Lieut-Col. J. P. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Houfton, John Plowright Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Robertson Despencer, Major (lslgtn, W) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hudson, Capt. A. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Chapman, Sir S. Hughes, Collingwood Roundell, Colonel R. F. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hurd, Percy A. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. Clayton, G. C. Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cobb, Sir Cyril Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Russell, William (Bolton) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Conway, Sir W. Martin James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Cope, Major William Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Jephcott, A. R. Sandon, Lord Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Shepperson, E. W. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) King, Captain Henry Douglas Shipwright, Captain D. Curzon, Captain Viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Singleton, J. E. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lorden, John William Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Lorimer, H. D. Stanley, Lord Edmondson, Major A. J. Lort-Williams, J. Steel, Major S. Strang Ednam, Viscount Lougher, L. Stewart, Gershom (Wirral) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lynn, R. J. Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Wolmer, Viscount Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Wells, S. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport) Yerburgh, R. D. T. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Whitla, Sir William Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Tubbs, S. W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Turton, Edmund Russborough Winterton, Earl Wallace, Captain E. Wise, Frederick
NOES. Adams, D. Harbord, Arthur Ritson, J. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Hardie, George D. Roberts, C. H. (Derby) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Harney, E. A. Rose, Frank H. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. A. Ammon, Charles George Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Scrymgeour, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Sexton, James Batey, Joseph Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Bonwick, A. Herriotts, J. Shinwell, Emanuel Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hill, A. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Briant, Frank Hirst, G. H. Simpson, J. Hope Broad, F. A. Hogge, James Myles Sitch, Charles H. Brotherton, J. Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Smith, T. (Pontefract) Buckle, J. Irving, Dan Snell, Harry Burgess, S. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snowden, Philip Burnle, Major J. (Bootle) John, William (Rhondda, West Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Strauss, Edward Anthony Chapple, W. A. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Sullivan, J. Charleton, H. C. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Clarke, Sir E. C. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Collie, Sir John Lawson, John James Thornton, M. Darbishire, C. W. Leach, W. Tillett, Benjamin Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh) Lee, F. Tout, W. J. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) Trevelyan, C. P. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Lowth, T. Turner, Ben Duffy, T. Gavan Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Wallhead, Richard C. Duncan, C. MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Ede, James Chuter M'Entee, V. L. Warne, G. H. Edmonds, G. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) March, S. Weir, L. M. Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Welsh, J. C. Fairbairn, R. R. Morel, E. D. Westwood, J. Foot, Isaac Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Mosley, Oswald Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Gilbert, James Daniel Muir, John W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Murnin, H. Williams, T (York, Don Valley) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Greenall, T. Paling, W. Wintringham, Margaret Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Phillipps, Vivian Wright, W. Groves, T. Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich) Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Guthrie, Thomas Maule Pringle, W. M. R. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Nunn.—Mr. J. Robertson and Mr. Nunn. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Riley, Ben
Bills Presented
Public Works Loans Bill,
"to grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund; and for other purposes relating to local loans," presented by Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 177.]
Expiring Laws Bill,
"to continue certain Expiring Laws," presented by Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 178.]
Agricultural Wages (Confirmation of Agreements) Bill,
"to facilitate the confirmation of agreements as to rates of wages made by joint conciliation committees under section four of The Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Act, 1921, and to amend the Law with respect to certificates issued under the said section," presented by Sir EOBERT SANDERS; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 179.]
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Felixstowe Dock and Railway Company to levy additional rates, tolls, and charges; to purchase additional lands for the provision of workmen's dwellings; to redeem debenture stock; and for other purposes." [Felixstowe Dock and Railway Bill [ Lords .]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the County Borough of Croydon to execute a street improvement; to consolidate the rates of the said borough; and for other purposes." [Croydon Corporation Bill [ Lords .]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further provision in regard to the water undertaking of the urban district council of Broadstairs and St. Peter's and the health, local government, and improvement of their district; and for other purposes." [Broadstairs and St. Peter's Urban District Council Bill [ Lords .]
Felixstowe Dock and Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Croydon Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Broadstairs and St. Peter's Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Orders of the Day
Supply
[13TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Bevenue Departments Estimates, 1923–24
Class VII
Ministry of Health
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £12,504,210, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Health; including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, etc., sundry Contributions and Grants in respect of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1922, certain Grants-in-Aid, and certain Special Services arising out of the War."—[NOTE: £7,000,000 has been voted on account.]
4.0 P.M.
In presenting the Estimates of the Ministry of Health to the Committee, I must frankly say that my acquaintance with all the various ramifications of my Department is not as great as I could desire. Since I have occupied my office I have had to carry a rather heavy burden of new legislation, and, occupied as I have been almost every day with work in Committee on important Bills, it has not been possible for me to devote so much attention to other Departments of the Ministry as I should myself have desired. I think the Committee must by now be almost surfeited with discussions on housing matters, and, therefore, this afternoon I propose in the statement that I am going to make not to touch on those matters at all, but, instead, to offer to the Committee something in the nature of a general survey of the public health as it is to-day and of the measures which are being taken by my Department to maintain it.
I have always felt, ever since I have taken part in public affairs, whether local or national, that improvements in the public health are of more importance to the nation than anything else. The physical and mental condition of the people are so closely bound up together that I think one may fairly say that every advance in the happiness and contentment of the people, every step in the progress of intellectual development, and even every opportunity of taking advantage of improved prosperity or of enduring misfortune, depends upon the maintenance of a certain standard of health in the community. More than that, it is a fact that the material prosperity of the nation is vitally affected by this same question. The existence of sickness and ill-health in the population means the establishment of great hospitals, infirmaries, convalescent homes, and the like at a huge capital cost and a correspondingly large cost in maintenance. It means that a vast army of people have to be maintained while they are unable to work at the cost of their fellows, and it means the withdrawal from the productive activity of the country of a very large number of people who otherwise might be helping to contribute to the nation's wealth. If I take only the insured population, I find that in the year 1922 upwards of 19,500,000 weeks of work were lost from this cause alone. If I might put it in another way, the equivalent of the work of 375,000 people for a whole year has been absolutely lost to us. If you add to that the corresponding figure, whatever it may be, for the people who are not insured, you get some idea of the value of preventive work.
It is, at any rate, some consolation to reflect that the work which is being done by way of preventive medicine is not in vain. An examination of the vital statistics is, I think, markedly encouraging, especially when one considers the exceptionally hard conditions under which people have been living for the last three or four years. Take the death-rate. During the first 10 years of this century the death-rate in this country was 15·4 per 1,000. In the following 10 years, of course including the War years, it had fallen to 14·3. I should perhaps mention to the Committee that that figure of 14·3 does not take account of the deaths of those who were actually killed in the War, and it is a corrected figure to make allowance for that. But last year the death-rate had fallen as low as 12'8 per 1,000. If I take another set of statistics, which, I think, are always of interest to the Com-mitee—those of infant mortality, as to which I shall have something further to say—in the five years 1910–15 the infant mortality rate was 111 per 1,000. In the five following years it had fallen to 90 per 1,000. In 1921 it was 83, and last year it reached the record low figure of 77 per 1,000. The expectation of life among all classes of the population is steadily increasing, and a baby born to-day can reasonably expect to live 12 years longer than its grandfather could have expected to live. I think I ought to except from that those babies which are destined to become Cabinet Ministers. For them I have the authority of the late Speaker of the House for saying that life, according to the American definition, is possible for me before very long to introduce some new legislation to carry us a step forward in the campaign for the cleansing of our atmosphere.
Next to the respiratory diseases are the diseases affecting the heart, and after that come the diseases of the nervous system. It is not until you get to the fourth place that you find in the list the well-known case of cancer which now accounts for about 96 per thousand of all the deaths from all causes. I am sorry to say that there is no doubt this disease is increasing among our people. In the year 1900 the deaths from cancer per million of the population were 829. In 1910, 10 years later, they had risen to 967, and in 1921 to 1,215. In considering these figures, which are very disquieting, there are two allowances which must be made and which to some extent diminish their significance. The first is that methods of diagnosis are constantly improving, and to-day probably a great many deaths will be attributed to cancer by improved methods of diagnosis which would not have been so attributed some years ago. Then there is another rather curious connection. The very fact that people live longer than they used to do brings a larger proportion of the population into that comparatively short span that is called the cancer age. Cancer is a disease which does not occur in young people. It is most prevalent between the ages of 50 and 60. Consequently, the more people that reach that age the more people die from this particular disease. When, however, all that is said, and when every allowance is made for those two things, it still remains the case that cancer is steadily on the increase and that, unfortunately, up to the present we know nothing or little of its cause and we do not know of any cure. Investigations are going on. I have at the Ministry of Health a standing Medical Committee on Cancer which advices me from time to time. Then researches are being undertaken by three bodies. There is the well-known Cancer Research Fund; there is the Middlesex Hospital; and there is the Cancer Hospital in the Fulham Road. In addition, the subject is constantly under the attention of the Medical Research Council, and in the last few weeks there has been started another body, the British Empire Cancer Campaign. I am not sure that it is desirable to multiply bodies which are engaging in similar work too much, but, if the British Empire Cancer Campaign can succeed in co-operating with the existing bodies and in forming some sort of coordinating influence between them all, then indeed I shall heartily welcome its existence and be glad to give it my support.
The next disease on my list is tuberculosis, and I am glad to be able to give the Committee a very much more encouraging account of tuberculosis than I could in the case of cancer. In 1867 the deaths from tuberculosis per million of the population were 2,653. Twenty years later, in 1887, they had fallen to 1685. Another 20 years passed, and in 1907 they were only 1,125. Last year they were only 855 per million. That is a very satisfactory set of figures. It shows that the disease is steadily declining. Just lately two new methods of treatment have come under the notice of the Ministry of Health, about which perhaps I might just say a word. The first is one devised by M. Spahlinger, and as to that I can only say that I have offered to make a very full and sympathetic examination of his remedy as soon as he is in a position to supply me with the necessary material in the shape of his serum and vaccine, for which I have been waiting some time, and which, I understand, he is now in the process of manufacturing. The other method of treatment is one which has been elaborated by Professor Dreyer, of Oxford. In the presence of medical Members of this Committee it is perhaps rather rash for a layman to attempt to explain what this treatment is, but as sometimes the explanations of laymen are more intelligible than those of experts, I am going to be rash enough to try.
As I understand the matter, the idea of treatment by vaccination of this kind was first started by the celebrated Pasteur. He devised a method by which he injected a sort of solution or virus made out of the bacilli of the particular disease which he desired to cure or prevent. The result of the injection of these weak forces of the enemy into the system was that antibodies were formed in the system by the action of the system itself, and these anti-bodies increased in number and were marshalled and ready for attack to overcome the enemy when he arrived in the shape of disease within the body. After Pasteur's time it was found that similar results were obtained by injecting dead bacilli, which seemed to have the same effect as the living ones, but were attended with less danger than the living ones, which might go over to the enemy forces, and the dead ones could not do that.
In certain cases this difficulty was overcome. These bacilli of tuberculosis are encased in a sort of fatty covering which makes them impervious to the ingesting action of the human system. The result is that when these dead bacilli were injected into the human body they did not have that effect in producing and marshalling the anti-bodies which other bacilli had, because they were wrapped up in this envelope. As I understand the discovery by Dr. Dreyer, it is a method of treating these bacilli in such a way that the envelope is destroyed, and the dead bacilli now produce the same effect as was produced in the case of the other diseases where they had no protective covering. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I appreciate those cheers, because, even if I am wrong, I have evidently succeeded in making myself quite clear.
I pass now from tuberculosis, and would like to say a word or two about venereal disease, which a little while ago was occasioning a great deal of anxiety on account of the great increase in the number of cases after the War, and arousing a great deal of controversy in the activities of two different schools of thought as to the proper method of dealing with the disease. Fortunately, the figures show that the incidence of the disease is fairly rapidly on the decline, and we are going back to more normal methods and more normal figures in the case of this particular disease. I think we may attribute a good deal of this result to the fact that we have established a number of clinics throughout the country. There are 191 now in existence, and through them and in other ways a great deal of information has been spread which has caused people to realise more than they used to do what are the dangers which they themselves may incur, and the dangers they may possibly spread to innocent people who have had nothing to do with the causes which originally produced the disease. I hope we may continue our work in this respect and still further increase the number of clinics. The Report of Lord Tre-vethin's Committee does seem at last to offer some basis upon which these two schools of though may come together and agree, and work harmoniously in the future for the common good. There are certain local and administrative difficulties raised by particular parts of the Report, and I am now giving some careful examination and consideration to them, but I hope it may be possible for me to make some progress on the main lines suggested by that Committee.
There is one other specific matter upon which I must say a word. It is also controversial—I refer of course to small-pox. Small-pox, owing to the amount of vaccination which went on in the country, was for some time almost extinct. In 1917 there were only seven cases in the country, but I am sorry to say that there has been a very serious revival in the pre valence of this disease. In 1922 there were upwards of 973 cases and this year, up to the 16th June, we have already had 955 cases. This is a disease which is not constant in type, and it varies; sometimes it is virulent and sometimes it pursues a much milder form. It has occasionally been mistaken for chicken-pox. I do not think experts, and those who have had the most experience of the actual disease itself, have ever been in doubt recently as to what the true disease was from which the people have been suffering.
We must not lose sight of the fact that a disease which begins by being of a mild form may presently develop into something much more serious. I think it is my duty to speak plainly on this matter, and I consider the situation is distinctly serious. Twenty years ago 75 per cent, of the children born were vaccinated and to-day only 38 per cent, are vaccinated. It appears to me that there is a possibility of our being faced with an outbreak of small-pox which would not only be dangerous to health and even to life, but will certainly inflict a very serious damage and injury upon the commerce of the country. Therefore I am watching, and I shall continue to watch the situation with regard to small-pox with close attention, and in the meantime I desire to emphasise as strongly as I can that the one sure protection against small-pox is vaccination, and that those who not only refuse to be vaccinated themselves but gratuituously advise others to follow their example are taking upon themselves a very grave responsibility which they may some day be called to account for at the bar of public opinion.
I would like to refer once more to the question of infant mortality. I have recorded the satisfactory figure of 77 per thousand for 1922, but I would point out that that still means the death of 60,000 children under one year of age. On the other hand if the death rate had continued last year what it was in the first 10 years of the century that 60,000 would have been 100,000, so that we may consider that we have saved 40,000 lives of infants last year alone by the improvement in the general conditions of infant life. That does not represent anything like the whole of the benefit which we have received because it must be remembered that every life actually saved corresponds to an improvement in the health of the survivors, and therefore I think we may say that the actual number of lives we have saved is only an indication of a very much larger and a wider improvement in the general health of young children.
To what is that to be attributed? I think it may be largely taken to be the result of the establishment of the infant welfare centres, of which there are now 1,950 in the country. These centres exercise a very wide influence. That influence is not confined to the children themselves, because the mothers are taught how to take care of themselves, as well as their children. Very often the fathers get interested and attend the centres, and we have many cases in which the whole family life has been uplifted by the experience of the mother in these centres. Sometimes women will walk four or five miles to attend these centres. I have heard of fathers who brought the little children themselves when the mother was unable to come, or from some other reason. I would like to give one case. It is not in the least typical, but it is a case that shows in what unexpected sort of ways infant centres may produce benefits which never would have occurred but for their existence. A mother came to the centre soon after her first baby was born. The father was living on the immoral earnings of another woman. When the second baby was born it was found to be very unhealthy, and the mother was rapidly going downhill, both morally and socially. Through the influence of the infant welfare centre these children have become thoroughly healthy babies. The husband has at last got work, and he is keenly interested in his wife's attendance at the centre and in everything that affects the children. Finally, he is saving up to make a donation to the funds of the centre.
There is still a great deal more to be done, and this is one of those things in regard to which we never really get to the end. The maternal mortality still does not seem to show any practical decrease. Another thing is that the mortality rate amongst illegitimate children is twice as high as amongst legitimate children, and in that connection I would like to offer my congratulations to the hon. Member for Buckingham (Captain Bowyer) for the success which has attended his efforts on behalf of the mothers. We want more centres, more pre-natal clinics, more free medical attendance and more health visitors, and improved practice in midwifery, to enable them to extend the admirable work which they are carrying on throughout the country. Even if expansion in this direction means that we have to spend more money, I venture to suggest to the Committee that the results we have already achieved prove that that expenditure would be well worth while.
I think the Committee would perhaps desire that I should say one or two words about voluntary hospitals. It will be remembered that, after the War, the hospitals found themselves in a very serious financial position, so much so that a Committee was appointed, under the chairmanship of the Lord Chancellor (Lord Cave) to go into the whole question, and see what was best to be done. As a result of that Committee's inquiry, Parliament voted a sum of £500,000 to be distributed among the voluntary hospitals. Up to the present the Commission has spent about £425,000 out of the £500,000. Fortunately, the hospital deficits for the year 1921 turned out to be substantially less than had been estimated by the Commission, and they have now practically cleared off all the deficits with the exception of a few cases in which the hospitals were unable to raise the equivalent amount of money to justify a grant being made. In 1922, it is believed, the deficits will prove to have been less than was anticipated. While it is a fact that a good many voluntary hospitals have had to realise their realisable assets, and have therefore reduced to a minimum their reserves, we may congratulate ourselves on the fact that a considerable number are now able to balance their accounts of income and expenditure.
One of the most hopeful features is that what put the hospitals into this condition was not so much that their income was diminished, as that their expenditure was increased, and, indeed, the success which attended the development of what are called mass contributions—contributions from factories and works and from societies—the success which has attended the development of activities of this kind has substantially increased their income. Although the ordinary expenditure may increase still further in the future, with the revival of trade and the reduction of taxation the resources of the hospitals may be expected to increase, and we need not take a gloomy or despairing view of the future. Since the beginning of the War, practically speaking, there has been no additional provision of beds in our voluntary hospitals throughout the country. It is not because they have not been wanted, for the population has, of course, continued to grow and, in addition to that, every new advance in medicine or surgery seems to have made some additional demand for institutional treatment. More beds are required to accommodate patients who are undergoing operations or some specialised treatment, and the result of the natural increase in demand, coupled with the fact that there has been no increase in the supply, has been that every hospital now has a terrible waiting list of people who are in immediate need of treatment, and cannot get it because they cannot get beds.
I need not point out to the Committee what that means in the way of avoidable suffering to the patients and the loss of efficiency, which is a serious matter to the nation. Of course, we have to recognise that every £100 of capital which is spent on increasing the number of beds involves an addition to the cost of maintenance It means more nurses and more stores, and, generally speaking, there is a fixed sum corresponding to every £100 of capital which must be put on for the annual expenditure of the hospital. Unless the voluntary system is able to provide for the inevitable growth in the number of beds required in the country, and to bear the increased burden of maintenance necessitated by that, the system cannot be said to be standing on safe ground. The outlook, therefore, is still serious, but I should certainly consider it a mistake to come to any hasty conclusion upon it, because the voluntary system has shown such remarkable vitality and persistency in extraordinarily trying times. I hope in the circumstances I have mentioned—the improved condition of the country and the ability to contribute, the voluntary system which has done so much in the past will have another opportunity of demonstrating its power and efficiency.
There is one other way in which I think some relief could be given to the hospitals, and that is through the Poor Law infirmaries. There have been very great improvements in Poor Law infirmaries in recent years, both in equipment and in methods of treatment. Some of them have appointed consultant medical staffs. Others have got attached to them convalescent homes. That is a very important point, because it means that the patients need not take up beds in the infirmaries so long if they can finish their cure in a home situated, very often, in more favourable surroundings. Therefore this releases an additional number of beds, and that is a very significant and important consideration. Others again have taken paying patients in some of their wards at fixed fees. In one way and another I may say that the hospitals under boards of guardians command an immense amount of accommodation. In London alone boards of guardians have something like 18,000 beds, and I hope they may be able to give a considerable amount of assistance to the community and relieve the voluntary hospitals by making a more extended and wider use of their beds now that their standard has been so satisfactorily raised.
May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should substitute the word "hospital" for "infirmary" in connection with these institutions?
I am afraid if I used the word "hospital" in that connection I might not be clearly understood, but of course I should be pleased to describe the infirmaries as hospitals if that becomes a public practice. I quite appreciate the point made by the hon. Member. I would like to remind the Committee that the Estimates have now been reduced in two years, this year and last year by nearly £4,750,000. I think we have almost got to the end of the reduction. It really would be impossible to make further savings without trenching on services which, in the public interest, ought not to be curtailed. There are many subjects connected with my Department I have not touched upon but hon. Members will have an opportunity of raising them in the course of the Debate and I hope that either my Noble Friend or myself will be able to give further information to the Members of the Committee on any point on which they desire it. I hope the observations I have made will convince the Committee that there is no aspect of public health which is not receiving constant care and attention from the very competent officers of my Department, and I think that on the whole, in spite of some temporary and partial checks, the country may congratulate itself that, year by year, the health of the people is improving.
The right hon. Gentleman occupies the office of Minister of Health, but I think the title of the Department is rather misleading, as a multiplicity of the work done by it, although it indirectly concerns public health, is not concerned with the public health in the manner which the right hon. Gentleman has been describing this afternoon. I want to say two or three things on matters he has touched upon. The Committee will agree with me the right hon. Gentleman has left out of account the most potent enemy of the working classes, which is poverty. It is the one thing that produces more sickness, more bad health, more bad conditions than any of the other diseases he has made reference to. I do not complain that he has not dealt fully with the Poor Law side of the administrative work of his Department, because I think it would have been impossible for him to have done so considering the enormous amount of work he has had to undertake in connection with the Housing Bill. But I do want to point out that a very large part of the work of his Department is in connection with the Poor Law.
May I say just one thing about the hospitals, because that was the note upon which he finished? It is perfectly true that in London there are usually 18,000 beds vacant in the Poor Law hospitals, and I may mention for the information of the hon. Member for Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) that there are many Poor Law authorities which now call their institutions hospitals instead of infirmaries, and the practice is growing. That is a matter for the local authorities themselves to deal with. The point I want to urge is that it is not so much increased cost from which hospitals are suffering, but it is that, in spite of what is being done for them, they are not able to cope with the volume of sickness that arises and needs to be dealt with. I am one of those who think that there is a great overlapping and a great waste in our medical treatment of the people, and that if the money spent on hospitals, and that spent by Poor Law authorities could in some way be pooled, there would be at the service of every poor person a medical service such as most of us in this place can get for ourselves when we need a consultant and so on. It might be given to them quite easily, almost at their very doors. I do not think we shall ever settle the question of proper provision for the sick poor by leaving them partially to voluntary hospitals and partially to the Poor Law authorities to be dealt with.
Now that you have removed the stigma of pauperism from relief of any kind, there is no reason why the public should not go to the ordinary Poor Law hospital as freely as they go to the ordinary voluntary hospital. The poor actually pay for them out of their rates, and there is no reason why there should be any shame about it at all. I am glad to know that many Poor Law authorities are taking that line, and are not allowing people to think that going to a Poor Law hospital stigmatises them as paupers, but that they are just getting the public service which they need. The right hon. Gentleman, or; at least, his Department, ought to know—I feel rather merciful to him about it, because, obviously, he cannot know all this—that the London Hospital closed, I think, 200 of its beds, and then wanted to hire beds from the Whitechapel Hospital. There ought to have been someone with sufficient wisdom in the right hon. Gentleman's Department who could have brought about some better arrangement than what was proposed under those conditions. There is no doubt that the big London Hospital is in very dire straits, and has been for some very considerable time. That champion begger, Lord Knutsford, has not been able to raise the money he needs.
The Ministry of Health, long ago, through its Medical Department, ought to have made some arrangement by which not only would the Whitechapel Hospital have been able to supply some beds, but the whole of the Poor Law hospitals of London, instead of having 18,000 beds vacant, would have been brought into use. It is a question of adjusting the rates and the cost between the various districts, and that ought to be possible if the people at the centre really had the will and energy to do it. The powers vested in the Ministry of Health, which have been inherited from the Local Government Board, are really very large indeed. It would be within their power—I believe most Poor Law guardians in London would be willing to assist in such a scheme—to form a medical district for the whole of London, so that those beds, instead of being empty, could be used. To do that we should have to bring into use, in conjunction with them, the voluntary hospitals. It would alter their status, no doubt, but even that could probably be done without any further legislation. So far as the board of guardians are concerned, they do not need legislation. We need their good will, and the good will and energy of the right hon. Gentleman's Department.
I want to say a word about vaccination. I listened to the right hon. Gentleman's stern warning to people like myself. I am the wicked parent of a good many children, and most of them have not been vaccinated. My grandchildren are not vaccinated, and I come from a district where we had what was called an epidemic the other day. The name of Poplar, as usual, was flaunted all over the country as if, in addition to all our other crimes, we were going to spread small-pox throughout the length and breadth of the land. What are the facts? They are that a doctor allowed a case of small-pox to remain in an institution of ours for some weeks, and then sent it away to the Poor Law hospital, wrongly diagnosed, I think, as a disease of the chest. The doctor at the Poor Law hospital thought he diagnosed it as small-pox, but to make sure he sent off to the County Council and the Ministry of Health, to get a couple of experts down, and immediately we had a great scare. The Board, of which I am a member, were rather divided, and we handed the whole institution over to those gentlemen. Now and then one or two cases occurred outside, but they could all be traced to this one case; and that had been brought in from some place where there was, I suppose, rather more dirt than there is in Poplar.
The point I want to urge is that the authorities from the Ministry of Health told us that really and truly the present-day doctors did not know what small-pox was, that to diagnose it was extremely difficult, and that it was quite understandable that there should have been uncertainty. One of the best practitioners in Poplar admitted that he did not understand small-pox. You will find the statement I have made in the Report, although you will not find it stated that he did not understand it. You will find the facts about the case not being diagnosed. It was admitted, however, that one of the leading practitioners in Poplar could not detect small-pox. I recall this to the mind of the Committee, because in Gloucester at this moment there is a very great controversy. The medical officer of health is on the side of the anti-vaccinators. The medical officer has declared that the cases we have heard about are cases of chicken-pox. There are medical gentlemen here, some of them on our side of the Committee When one reaches my age, he generally has had a pretty considerable experience of doctors, if he has had a family. I have also had experience of them in public institutions for about 30 odd years. While I have great faith in their good intentions, I think the experts are people who very often make colossal blunders, and I believe they are making a great blunder—I say this with great respect to all of them—in assuming that small-pox in this country has been practically stamped out by vaccination. I believe it has been stamped out because the people have become better able to stand up to the conditions, and also because we have searched out the cases.
Had that case in Poplar been properly diagnosed at first, we should not have had any more there afterwards. The man, however, was left to go all over the institution for something like a fortnight and, of course, other people got the disease. I think, instead of turning down my proposal to appoint a small Committee to investigate the facts at Gloucester, the right hon. Gentleman ought to have set up such a Committee. None of us want to have smallpox ourselves, or amongst our children or relations, and if we could be convinced that we are wrong we should all be willing—as least, I am—to be convinced. Up to now, I have not seen any evidence. I could tell the Committee of men in our employ at Poplar, who have actually taken part in the removal of small-pox cases, who have never been vaccinated, and who never would be vaccinated. To say that vaccination is the safeguard against small-pox is to say what many of us, from actual experience, believe not to be true.
I want to say a word or two about Service patients. I do not suppose this has come under the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, but I expect the Noble Lord the Parliamentary Secretary will reply in regard to it. Many boards of guardians are having controversies with the authorities who control mental asylums with regard to the ex-service men who are being tumbled over to the Poor Law and made paupers in pauper lunatic asylums. Most of the boards of guardians are not going, if they can help it, to have anything to do with these cases, and we think, as the Minister of Health is at the head of the Poor Law asylums of the country, that he ought to be our champion in this matter. We have argued with the Minister of Pensions and we have argued in this House against this iniquitous method of dealing with men who served in the War, and we feel that, instead of the Minister writing us letters, telling us what dire things will happen to us unless we carry out the law according to the Minister of Pensions, that he ought to bring pressure to bear on the Cabinet so that this thing shall not happen. I raise that question because we shall be in the Courts about it before very long, and I do not want to spend any more time as one of the guests of His Majesty, neither do any of my colleagues. It seems to me that the Minister of Health has a perfectly simple case here, in which he could help the Poor Law guardians in fighting what, I think, is the most iniquitous proposal of the Minister of Pensions, namely, that 700 or 800 ex-service men, many of whom served for years, should now be classed as paupers and put on the local rates. There are two things I want to say concerning that. One is that you ought not to put this indignity on the men. The second is that you ought not to shift your responsibilities on to the local authorities, who should not have to bear this part of the burden of the cost of the War.
I want to raise a question about sanitary inspectors. The Minister of Health is always telling us that he has no power to interfere in fixing the salaries of men who serve as sanitary officers. As a matter of fact, he has all the power, if he likes to exercise it. He pays half the salaries, and has to approve the appointments. There is a Resolution of this House in existence that in any Government contracts made trade union rates should be paid. These sanitary officials have got a trade union, and the Ministry of Health ought to be just as willing to see that the trade union rate, fixed by the sanitary officers, should be paid. At present, the question of payment of these men is treated as if the services they had to render were of very little account. Anyone on a local authority knows—I was going to say, that our lives are in the hands of the sanitary officers. They go round to inspect drains, and to see they are properly put in. They have to administer the Food and Drugs Act, and, in fact, I have a whole list here of Acts of Parliament which they have to help administer. We ought to be willing to pay men who are administering the law, especially in the poor districts, a decent salary. At present, the post is often made a part-time one, with very low wages indeed. A man who is doing one job is allowed to fill up his time as a sanitary officer. I think there ought to be whole-time men, especially in the towns—though I do not know why I should say in the towns, because wherever they are they ought to be paid quite adequate salaries for the work they do. I hope the Minister of Health will take into account the fact that the Government, when it gives out a contract, obliges the contractor to pay trade union rates, and that he will apply the same principle to the case of the sanitary officials.
5.0 P.M.
I wish to say something about the Ministry of Health itself. I want to charge the Ministry—again, I say, I do not want to charge the right hon. Gentleman, because he will get up and tell me that he has only had the job for a few months, so I must criticise the Department. This Department came into being mainly because of the figures he gave of infantile mortality. I suppose no one who took part in public affairs just before the end of the War and the year immediately after the close of the War but was impressed by the fact that the late Lord Rhondda, and a group of other men interested in the work, tried to rouse the conscience of the nation about this 100,000 children who died under one year of age, and the other 100,000 who died under five years of age. There were 200,000 babies who, in spite of what hon. Members opposite may say, were murdered by the social and economic conditions which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite support. Those conditions murdered those children. You have reduced it just a little. You say you have reduced the number of babies who died under one year to 60,000. I would like to know what the figure is of those who have died under two years. The point I want to make about that is that Lord Rhondda, when he advocated the establishment of the Ministry of Health, hoped, as many social reformers' and as I understand the Minister of Health used to hope—I do not know if he does now—for a distribution of the social services of the Poor Law and the Public Health Services amongst other authorities, so as to get rid of this very swollen Department of his, which neither he nor any half-dozen men could properly control from this House.
Lord Rhondda hoped we could have had a real Ministry of Health, dealing with health alone, and that the Poor Law Services would have been broken up. I want to charge the officials of the Department with deliberately blocking these reforms. You have had a Royal Commission; you have had two Parliamentary Committees. You have had Lord George Hamilton's Committee, and Sir Donald Maclean's Committee, and those three public inquiries have each reported on schemes for carrying out what Lord Rhondda and other public-spirited men and women like him wanted done, but the officials at the Ministry have Mocked every step towards this, as I think, really vital reform of his Department. The right hon. Gentleman has told us how the conditions have improved, how the lives of men and women have been lengthened, and how children live longer. May I tell him that there is no thanks due to his Department for this, as his Department is at present constituted. You have to thank those local authorities against whom the gentlemen in his Department have carried on propaganda for being extravagant.
I must protest against this attack upon officials of my Department, who are not able to defend themselves. If the hon. Gentleman wants to make attacks, he should make them against the head of the Department, and not against the officials.
I understand somebody on that bench is to answer. I say the officials of your Department have definitely carried on propaganda against the local authorities who have spent money to produce the results for which you are now taking credit. The Poor Law authorities like Poplar, Whitechapel, Middlesbrough and Sheffield have nearly ruined themselves to keep the people that the Government would not keep, and the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman presides have carried out this propaganda. You need not say that I have not said this to their faces, because I have. They have carried on a propaganda against these authorities. What did they do with the Poplar Board? You sent a gentleman to investigate our enormities. You sent down a man who was a clerk to another union to inquire into our administration. How did this gentleman do it? He was a Mr. Cooper, clerk at Bolton, I think. He came down and took not the slightest notice of the board of guardians. He came down to investigate what we were doing. He never attended the relief committee, he never attended the board meetings. He took no account of the board of guardians whatsoever. He is a gentleman who believes in the eternal principles of 1834. He wrote a report which is the most misleading and grossly inaccurate public report that was ever printed. Where do the officials of the right hon. Gentleman's Department come in? Three days before the Poplar Board got that report it was published in the Press, so that before we could contradict any of the half-truths and mis-statements of this gentleman, they got three days' advance of us, and everybody knows that if you give a lie a start it takes a couple or three years to catch it up. The right hon. Gentleman's Department did that deliberately and of set purpose, and right on till the November elections last year they were continually issuing similar sort of statements. I want to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that, when he boasts of what his Department has done and what it is going to do, and when he says that we want more clinics, he has not been very well informed or he would not have said that. You hoped we would get them at a small expenditure of public money. The facts are that Dr. Addison asked the local authorities to establish clinics. He asked them to supply milk to expectant mothers and babies. What is happening now? First of all, no child over 12 months of age can have any free milk. No child that is being nursed by its mother can get any milk, and the mothers, instead of getting free milk, are, if you please, to get a meal, which must not cost more than 6d., five days a week. I would like to see the right hon. Gentleman or myself sitting down to a 6d. meal.
They are very good meals and very well cooked.
I know exactly what these meals are, and even if they are as good as the hon. and gallant Member says they are, do you not want a meal seven days a week, and not five days a week? The Geddes axe has been chopping down, and the Minister, in response to the Geddes Committee, will, in my judgment, be compelled, when he stands there—as he probably will—in a year's time, to give different figures in regard to infantile mortality than he has given to-day. I believe he will find that the numbers have gone up except in those districts where the board of guardians and the public health authority have defied him and done the work in spite of the proposals to cut it down. I want to say, when you come to deal with the death-rate among babies, that I think that the lowering of the death-rate has been entirely due to the fact that those boards of guardians which have been most censured by this House and are most lampooned by the Ministry of Health have spent the money and have burdened the ratepayers because they have felt that human life was more valuable than rates and taxes. In our own district, among the children from one to two years of age, the death-rate in 1919 was 51'6 per thousand, and in 1921 it was only 26 per thousand. Among children from two to three years of age the death-rate in 1919 was 24.1 per thousand; now it is 11·9 per thousand. Among children from three to four years of: age in 1919 it was 18·1 per thousands; now it is only 6·8 per thousand. That is the justification for Poplar, and that is the answer to the malignant statements of Mr. Cooper and the rest of the gentlemen in the propaganda department of the Ministry of Health. I call the Committee's attention to this, because I want to emphasise the fact that it is among the poor districts of the country that the high rates of mortality are found. That has been lowered partly because Dr. Addison and before him Lord Rhondda instituted a system of free milk for expectant mothers and young children. That has now been largely cut off by the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman, but it has been made up by the work and labour of men and women on the local authorities of this country, and it is no credit to the Ministry of Health that this has been done, because his Department always frowned on that sort of thing.
I want to repeat that we were told by the circular issued in November, 1921, that there were to be no new premises for maternity and child welfare centres; that we were to have 6d. meals five days a week for mothers; that children over 12 months were to get no milk; that babies, whose mothers nursed them, were also to get no milk. In our dental clinics we have had our facilities cut down; in our physical arrangements we have had them cut down. Our borough is a very long narrow strip of land, and the Ministry has refused to allow us to have a dental clinic at one end and another at the other end. We were told the women must travel. It was a pretty tale the Minister told us about the men taking the babies to the clinic. That means they are out of work, because the clinics are not open generally at night, but during the day. The distance from the Isle of Dogs to our dental clinic is too far for any woman who is sick and in need of her teeth being attended to, because she is sick, to have to travel. I call attention to this because, no doubt, what has been done in our case is done in the case of other districts also, and I repeat that, whatever improvement has been made, has been made in spite of the Ministry of Health's policy during the last 18 months or two years. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) is not here, because I meant to say a good deal to him, but, as he is not here, I will not bother the Committee by saying it.
I want now to call attention to the able-bodied. The gentlemen who rule at the Ministry of Health on the Poor Law side are nearly all gentlemen who, in these days, talk about the eternal principles of 1834, that the condition of the pauper shall be less favourable than that of the lowest-paid labourer in receipt of relief. The Minister knows, and the Department knows, that you have let that slide by the board up to the present. When the War was over, and you were obliged to deal with a large number of unemployed men, you first gave them big grants out of national money. Slowly, but surely—very surely indeed—the Ministry of Health has shoved this great body of men on to the Poor Law. In order to relieve the burden of what you call taxation, you have put, according to the right hon. Gentleman's own figures, £1,700,000 in one month on the local authorities of England, and you have put 1,700,000 men and their dependants also on to the Poor Law. I shall be asked how this could have been dealt with administratively in any other way. First of all, there is a law on the Statute Book which, if the right hon. Gentleman or his predecessor had cared to put it into operation, would most certainly, if administered as it was intended to be administered, have obviated putting these men, not merely on the Employment Exchange to get money for nothing, but also, in addition, putting them on to the Poor Law authority to get money from them also. That Act is the Unemployed Workmen Act.
I know the right hon. Gentleman, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), will say that that is a very expensive method of dealing with the unemployed, but it is not nearly so expensive as giving men something for nothing, and demoralising them in the fashion in which they are being demoralised, by walking about with £l or 15s. a week plus whatever they can get from the guardians. I think the right hon. Gentleman, or the head of the Department, ought to have considered himself, as it were, the head of the Poor Law authorities, and ought to have acted as their friend, insted of allowing this grave injustice to be done. What the Department has done is what they always do. They have taken schemes that were first brought out under the Unemployed Workmen Act, and are doing their level best to degrade those as much as possible. There is Belmont Workhouse, which is a semi-prison. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will tell the House what the conditions are for men who go to, as I call it, Belmont prison. When I was in Russia I saw a prison that was a much better place for detention than Belmont. The men are sent there and are treated as a kind of semi-criminals. Then, some men are sent to the Hollesley Bay labour colony. The other night, during the debate on Scottish agriculture, I had the temerity to interject a remark about the Unemployed Workmen Act, and you, Mr. Hope, asked me how that came in. This is how it comes in here, anyhow. If the right hon. Gentleman had liked, he could have established 100 or 200 Hollesley Bays throughout the country. Instead of sending these men down there in a sort of semi-imprisonment, he could have dealt with that colony in the way which those who founded it intended.
We hear a great deal of agriculture, and the need for developing agriculture. When the right hon. Gentleman has time to look up the records—he probably did so before he took office—of the old Poor Law Commission, he will find the whole story of the Hollesley Bay Colony there, and he will know that that colony was established in order, first, that we might preserve the moral of the men who were out of work, and, next, that those who found themselves adaptable for land work should be given the opportunity of doing on the land. Dealing with a man and woman and their family is a very costly business when you remove them from their home, but there was a large mass of young men that could have been removed, and it would have been an economy even in money to remove them, while it would also have been a tremendous saving in the moral of those young men. I think the most terrible thing about unemployment at the present moment is the number of quite young people who are learning to do nothing and to live. In the case of some of us round here, our children are not trained to go to work so early as the children of the working classes, but it is something, like a tradition of the working classes that they start work at a certain time. What you are doing with them now is training them to believe that work is the last thing that should come their way. I am sure that, if this business had been split up as the Poor Law Commissioners wanted it split up, this could not have happened. If there had been a real Department for dealing with this matter, these young men would have been taken out, as the despised Poplar Board asked that they should be, into some of those great centres where there were aerodromes, and, even if they did nothing but turn over the soil and grow potatoes and learn to keep their muscles and bodies in order, it would have been a tremendous gain to the community.
We proved at Hollesley Bay, beyond any dispute, that, given the opportunity, multitudes of these people would have been quite fit to put on small holdings here in England, and you could have established on a co-operative scale all those things which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs continually talks about, but which, when he had the power, he never did. You could, in my judgment, have resettled a very large part of England. I shall be told that a lot of the land is of no use. That is true; it is no use at all till it has been dealt with; but I warn the Noble Lord, before he gets up and fathers that statement, that Hollesley Bay and Laindon Colony are both standing witnesses against it. There is also the colony outside Edinburgh, and the colony at Glasgow. There are four of these colonies which have been established, and on which the unemployed have proved that land can be reclaimed and brought into a high state of cultivation. Any hon. or right hon. Gentleman can go down to Suffolk, 80 miles from London, and see a colony there of 1,200 to 1,400 acres, a large amount of which is reclaimed land, and all of which was planted by London unemployed men. There will also be found cottages, and, I suppose, the remnants of the allotments on which we wanted to place these men. That was stopped by Mr. John Burns. The present Ministry of Health has not given one bit of attention to this special matter. I am not asking that money should be given away for nothing to the poor in poor districts. I am not asking for this as a policy; I am only asking for it in the sense that it is ambulance work that must be done; but I want to point out to the Committee that this extremely costly work of dealing with the results of poverty does not get rid of poverty. You are baling out the ocean, as it were, with a spoon. The Ministry of Health, or whatever Department deals with the problem, instead of continually patching it up by having more clinics—though you are bound to have them at this minute—should have before them as their ultimate policy the abolition of poverty and the removal of the conditions that make all that expenditure necessary.
Every poor district lives in a vicious circle. They have poor people, and they must spend money to deal with them, which helps to make other people poor. You will never get out of that unless you face the fact, of which we are continually telling you, that, if capitalism will not provide work under decent conditions, the community must do so, and I am urging that, instead of allowing the unemployed to continue to live on the board of guardians, and just draw relief, you ought, even at this late hour, when there are 1,500,000, and probably more, men and women out of employment, to consider whether you will not put into operation the Unemployed Workmen Act, so that, under that Act, you could take land, and at least provide work for the younger of the men, and especially the very young men who at present are being demoralised in a wholesale fashion. Finally, I want to say something about women. Under the Unemployed Workmen Act we did great work for women here in London. Again, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Burghs would say, "Oh, but it cost money." Of course, it did. When you do wrong, it costs a good deal of money to put it right, but here again you would preserve the moral of these women, and would also preserve their bodily fitness. I want to repeat that all the improvements that have been made in public health have been made in districts where the Labour people have got control, though they have not had the support they ought to have had from the Minister and his officials. I think, further, on this question of unemployment, that the policy that has been adopted is an altogether wrong one. I want to say, in order to save anyone from getting up and telling me, that Poplar and the Labour movement do not believe in giving money for nothing except as a means of preserving health and keeping people alive. We want work, and I believe that even now the Minister, by doing as I suggest, could find work for a considerable number of men.
We have heard a very interesting speech from the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). I only propose to make two comments concerning it. The first is with regard to the last part of the speech, and the methods by which the hon. Member has suggested that the unemployment problem of this country can be solved, or, at any rate, alleviated, namely, as I understand it, by the establishment of a number of Hollesley Bay institutions up and down the country. The hon. Member admitted that the gentleman who stopped that experiment was Mr. John Burns, a Member of his own party.
No, no! A good Liberal.
The reason, of course, that he did that was, as my hon. Friend knows perfectly well, that it turned out to be a very wasteful and extravagant scheme, and was of very little benefit to the people whom it was designed to benefit. I very much regret the attack the hon. Member made upon civil servants belonging to the Ministry of Health. As he knows perfectly well, and as I know intimately, during the period he referred to, the last 18 months or two years, when he complained of their action, the proper person to whom he should direct those complaints, as he intimated later in his speech, was the right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond). I have no doubt if he had given the right hon. Baronet notice that he was going to raise any question concerning him to-day he would have been in his place and would have been only too happy to answer anything the hon. Member has said. Whatever can be said of the right hon. Baronet he is not lacking in courage, and is prepared at all times to enter into conflict or controversy with the hon. Member. So far as my knowledge goes, the country could have no better and no more hard-working servants than those of the Ministry of Health. They have at no time intervened in matters of policy. They have adopted the policy of the Government and the directions of the Minister for the time being, and I do not think the hon. Member, when he comes to reflect, will think anyone there has any personal animus to him or to Poplar administration or has at any time personally intervened to do him or anyone else any harm.
I want to draw attention to another matter with which my right hon. Friend is concerned in his capacity of Minister of Health. I do not agree with the hon Member that "Minister of Health" is not a good title and does not properly describe the work of the Department. Before the Ministry of Health was established seven or eight Ministers were carrying out health duties. To-day they are concentrated in one man.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not, present; Committee counted; and 40 Members being present —
I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has intervened, after having just come into the House. No doubt he will be glad to observe that he has the support of three Members of his Party on this important matter. I think the Ministry of Health has thoroughly justified itself and my right hon. Friend's statement taking it altogether is a very satisfactory one. Certainly the standard of health has greatly improved not, as the hon. Member would have us believe, during the last few years during which he has shared in the administration of Poplar but has steadily increased for 30 or 40 years.
I have shared in the administration of Poplar for 34 years.
At any rate there has been a steady increase all over the country. It has not been confined to Poplar or Stepney or those other delightful parts of London. In many respects the Ministry is overburdened and I much regret that housing was included in its functions. When it was first formed many of us strongly urged the Government not to include housing in the Health Ministry administration but to give it to the Office of Works. I am very much afraid during the last few years the attention of Health Ministers has been a great deal absorbed by housing and very litle time has been left for the real health side of the Ministry. I hope it may be possible during the next few years, though I am not very optimistic about it, that they will be able to devote a good deal more time to the real health and preventive side of the Minister of Health.
The particular matter I want to draw attention to is really a very important part of his work, which he has not referred to, and that is the administration of the National Health Insurance Act. It affects a third of the total population, and it wants the close and constant attention of the Department. The health service of the country, so far as the insured population is concerned, is costing a very large sum of money. I think some £8,250,000 per annum has been paid to the 12,000 odd doctors on the panel who perform duties in connection with the administration of medical benefit, and since the Act has been put into force no less than £53,000.000 has been paid to them. We have to-day an opportunity of asking whether this money has been wisely spent, and whether for it we are getting a really good medical service worth the huge sum of money which is spent on it. I believe, and I have no doubt my right hon. Friend believes, that in very many respects this service can be very greatly improved. One of the great defects of the service is that about only half the general practitioners of the country have undertaken service under the National Insurance Act. That is a most unfortunate thing, and I think a good many defects of the service arise from that fact. There may be large numbers of these doctors who have big private practices, and for that reason do not want to engage in National Insurance, but I believe there are also a very large number who have professional objections to serving under this administration, and I believe we shall never get a much more perfect service until we are able to attract a good many more medical men and get them to take service under the Act than we are doing at present. There is very little doubt that there is a great body of complaints about the present service. I make no general indictment against the medical profession, but one knows, from the experience of one's constituency and matters that one reads in the newspapers every day, that there are a good many defects in the service.
My right hon. Friend may answer that there have been very few complaints alleged in connection with National Insurance before the appropriate Committees, and he may be able to cite figures which are very email indeed showing that very few people have officially brought forward complaints, but that is really no effective test. People do not care to bring these complaints forward. I was informed of a case a short time ago where a medical man had, ever since the beginning of the Act, adopted the practice of having two entrances to his surgery. One was an early door entrance and the other was the ordinary entrance, and the patients who went in at the early door entrance had to pay a fee of a shilling for immediate and early treatment. That went on for a very long time, and the society that took the matter up had the greatest possible difficulty in getting the poor people who had to pay their extra shilling to come forward and place their complaints before the Medical Committee. Therefore, my right hon. Friend must not rely too much upon the small number of official complaints which are made. Also I think most of us, when we are ill and are attended by a doctor, are not in a mood or have not the desire to make a complaint against the medical man at that critical juncture. There are far too many patients on doctors' panel lists. In April last year there was one doctor in London who had no fewer than 4,700 patients. He had one assistant. One can imagine what sort of treatment those 4,700 patients must be receiving and what sort of careful examination could be given to their cases. I am happy to know, although I by no means agree that it has gone far enough, that later on certain precautions were adopted with regard to that case, and the number was reduced to 4,500. There are some 11 per cent, of the medical men on the panel lists who have between 2,000 and 3,000 patients and 3 per cent, who have over 3,000 patients, and that calls for immediate attention and remedy.
Does my hon. Friend mean patients or healthy people who are on the panel?
My hon. and gallant Friend makes the point that is always made. The 4,500 are not all ill at the same time, and perhaps a good many of them are not ill during the year, but if one takes the ordinary percentage I should think that was bad enough, and when most of these medical men have a private practice as well, how on earth they can give proper attention to their private practice or their panel practice I cannot understand, and I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to explain how these medical men are carrying out their duties.
Another thing which also calls for inquiry is the fact that when these people get on a particular doctor' is list they are only able to change once in every six months. I believe there is a suggestion—I do not know whether it has been carried out—that the period should be reduced to three, but be that as it may, when you once get upon one of these panel lists you cannot get off it again without giving a good many notices and filling up a good many forms, and you have to remain on for a considerable period. My suggestion to the Minister is that these insured persons should be able to change their doctor at any time. I do not mean that they should go on to-morrow morning, but that they should, after reasonable notice, be able to go to-any doctor on the list.
Another complaint which, I believe, has a good deal of substance in it, is in connection with the surgery and other accommodation which is provided by these panel doctors. In many cases it is very hard indeed. As I understand the National Insurance Act and its principles, the insured persons on a doctor's list are entitled to just as good attendance and just as good accommodation as the private patient. I do not think, at any rate, in a very large number of cases, my hon. and gallant Friend will contend that the insured person on the average doctor's list is getting the same, or as good, treatment as the private patient, and yet he is certainly entitled to it. Why I raise these matters this afternoon is this. My right hon. Friend, as he has told the House in answering questions put by many Members, is about to make fresh arrangements with the medical profession. He has entered into a very difficult task. I drew his attention the other day to a document which has been issued by the professional body.
Trade union.
The trade union which looks after the interests of the medical men in this country, and, apparently, they have imitated some of the suggestions and actions of hon. Members opposite. [An HON. MEMBER. "Direct action!"] I notice already that they have issued a document counselling the members of their association as to what they are to do if my right hon. Friend does not accede to their demands as far as remuneration is concerned. My right hon. Friend will remember the document, because he gave me a most interesting reply concerning it. He said he had no official notice of the document. I conclude from that reply that he has had notice of the document, although not official notice. But this document, as I understand it, says that, in certain events, unless my right hon. Friend comes to terms with the medical profession, they will decline to carry on and engage in the service of this Act. I hope my right hon. Friend will take no notice of that sort of tactics, because I believe he will have behind him the whole of the country in resisting that kind of method from, at any rate, a body of men from whom we expect better things. We want a fair remuneration to be paid to the medical man, but we certainly want a much better and much improved service.
I also hope my right hon. Friend will be able to give this undertaking, that before he concludes his arrangement which affects one-third of the population of this country, and involves very many millions of money, this House shall have an opportunity of discussing it. I have no doubt he will be pressed to make an arrangement for a considerable time. Whatever financial arrangement he may make, he will probably be made to make it for three, four or five years. That in- volves a very large sum of money, and affects a very large number of people. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend does not think I am unreasonable in pressing him to give an undertaking that before that matter is concluded, Members of this House, who are very vitally interested and concerned in this matter, shall have an opportunity of discussing it.
With regard to the question of the reduction of administration allowance, which my right hon. Friend is about to effect in connection with the approved societies, as I understand it, he has issued one of those orders for which, unfortunately, the National Insurance Act has provided, which can be made really without any effective control by this House. He has made an order that the administration allowance of the societies shall be reduced, I think it is, by 5d. I am not myself prepared to contend that, at any rate, in the case of the larger societies, that is an unreasonable step to take. In fact, all I desire to ask my right hon. Friend is to give an explanation to the House as to why he is taking this course, because I, for instance, have been receiving communications from the Association of Approved Societies, which consists of the smaller societies administering this Act, and of which the right hon. Member for Derby is president, and which has for vice-presidents men like Lord Bledisloe, and my right hon. Friend whom I see opposite, and men of all views who look after the interests of these societies. They are very much concerned about their position. They greatly doubt whether they will be able to administer this Act with the reduced expenditure contemplated by my right hon. Friend, and I promised them that I would, at any rate, ask the Minister to take this opportunity of giving some explanation as to why that course is being taken, and whether he thinks these societies will be able efficiently to administer the Act on this reduced allowance. I am sure if he and the competent advisers which he has in connection with the National Health Insurance Department think so, they will be satisfied. It is in no critical spirit that this is raised, but I think the Committee is entitled to an explanation why that course has been taken.
My right hon. Friend has referred to the many illnesses from which people in this country suffer, and he has referred to the three committees, I think, which are now engaged in research work, looking into subjects like cancer, and dreadful diseases of that kind. I do think that it again confirms the view which is held by a very-large number of people, that the time has now arrived when the matter of medical research generally should be put solely under the control of the Ministry of Health. I think it is an unfortunate thing that there should be three committees independent of one another. There must be a great waste of effort and of money. I thought at the time, and I think so now, that it was a mistake to put the direction of medical research in this country under the Privy Council. I think it would be far better if it were administered under the Ministry of Health. I believe a good many people hold that view. Co-ordination would be possible, and by that means we should realise much more rapidly what, I think, is the real salvation of this country as far as health is concerned, and that is prevention. Prevention really should be the watchword of the Health Ministry, but I think when one reflects on the panel system, and matters of that kind, there is very little real preventive work being done. My right hon. referred to diseases like cancer, tuberculosis and bronchitis, but what, in fact, the great mass of this country is suffering from, and what involves the loss of such a lot of money to the nation, are the minor maladies of life. The number of illnesses and absences from work caused by the minor maladies of life are simply terrific. Therefore, I hope, my right hon. Friend may, in the forthcoming 12 months, devote a good deal more attention to an aspect, which, I am sure, is more dear to him than any other, and I am sure he will have the best wishes of the whole Committee, because no party politics enter into it, and that in the next 12 months a great deal may be done in connection with prevention as a means of solving a good many of the maladies and misfortunes of life.
I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health for a most interesting survey. I do not in the least agree with his critics from this side of the Committee that the Ministry of Health is the home of reaction, and nothing but reaction, nor do I think that all local authorities necessarily have the monopoly of all the progressive virtues that have been suggested. Many of them, I think, set a most admirable example, and perform enormous services to the country, and some might with advantage be rather more active than they are, and often require, I think, the little stimulus which sometimes comes from the Ministry of Health. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) said there was no difference of party politics in this matter, and, from the survey which the Minister of Health gave us, I felt we might recognise in him a vigilant and an active defender of the public health, and we all heartily wish him success in the work which he is taking up. We know from his statements in the Press that he has many schemes ahead when he is free from his housing problems. He has indicated an attack upon smoke, and I think I have seen references to an intention to deal with a clean milk supply. I am sure in all that kind of work he will receive the hearty good wishes of the whole of this House.
I agree very much indeed with what he said about the direct financial interest which this House has in the public health of the country. Indeed, that is not, perhaps, the largest aspect of the problem, but it is an interesting fact, I think, to realise that, in proportion as the public health of the country improves, this House is going to be saved voting hundreds of thousands of pounds, indeed, millions of pounds, in direct expenditure. That comes home to anyone who knows the administration of the National Health Insurance, about which I wish to say a word in a minute noticed with interest that in the year 1921–22 the expenditure on sickness benefit dropped 12 per cent., and saved this country about half-a-million, and I noticed that in the Estimates this year there is a similar reduction of another half million. I think that is very satisfactory, because it cannot mean that there is any economy in cutting down services. Those services are statutory. If people are ill, they get the benefits. It must mean an improvement in the health of the country, and it also emphasises the fact that, as the improvement of the health of the country continues—as we hope it will—it is literally saving this country millions of pounds.
6.0 P.M.
I confess that there were two gaps which I noticed in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. One was about National Health Insurance, and I can understand his reasons for not speaking, at all events, in his first speech. When he was dealing with the evils and maladies which afflict this country, I could not help noticing again a singular omission of all reference to alcoholism. It is not an unimportant matter from the public health point of view. When you spend £350,000,000 on alcohol it has its effect upon the health of the country. The experts of the Ministry of Health know, without our referring to it, the interconnections between alcoholism and tuberculosis and other diseases, and I do not know any way by which this country could better improve its health and save expense than by a vigorous policy to combat the evils of alcoholism. But no word is uttered on that subject by the Minister of Health. He leaves it in silence, which, of course, may prevent assistance being given in certain quarters, but it is so grave that I cannot but hope that, on grounds of health alone, the Minister of Health, when he gets his hands free, may do something to deal with one of the great scourges of the country which still remain to be conquered.
On the question of National Health Insurance, I felt myself in very great sympathy and agreement with the hon. Member for West Woolwich. I can imagine that the Ministry did not wish to deal with it, because some aspects of the matter are still sub judice . They are the subject of examination by Committees; and, possibly, he is not yet in a position to say anything about his negotiations with the medical profession. One other matter, which is being discussed by a Committee at the present time, is the possible relation of the system of health insurance with unemployment. There may be some attractions in that idea. It may be possible to save filling up millions of cards by some administrative changes. Otherwise, that idea does not appeal to one. The principles which I think should preside over the administration of those two branches are so diverse that I cannot myself see how they are going to work together. I wonder how much longer that Committee is going to sit on the subject. I should like to be reassured that, though there may be some slight administrative changes, yet the idea of combination between those two branches will be given up.
I support the hon. Member for West Woolwich in what he said about the possibility of improving the medical service under the panel system. We must admit that there has been a considerable improvement in medical service and treatment owing to the operation of the National Health Insurance Act, and I cannot help thinking that some of the improvement in health which is visible in the figures I have quoted may very largely be due to the effect of the panel system. Obviously, the patient is encouraged to go much more quickly to a doctor, and, possibly, the earlier treatment and more rapid application to the doctor may bring about the improvement in health which the figures, which I have quoted, seem to demonstrate. Certainly, if one compares the kind of treatment which existed, which was perhaps the best that could be given, by club doctors, who were often paid most inadequate sums, with the treatment which the panel patient gets to-day, it is only fair to admit that there has been a very considerable improvement, though one naturally wishes for more.
I agree with the hon. Member for West Woolwich that one of the great evils of the system is the large size of the panels. I believe that the rule of thumb at present—though I do not think it rests on any statutory regulation—is a maximum of 3,000 patients, which may be increased by 50 per cent, if a doctor has an assistant. I should hope that in any terms made with the medical profession it might be possible to reduce those figures. One does hear a great deal of complaining. There are complaints sometimes of extravagant prescribing, and there are still more complaints of stock prescriptions, in which prescriptions are dealt out almost wholesale by reference to a single number, each prescription being known by a certain number.
All those subjects can be dealt with properly by insurance committees; I feel convinced that they will deal fairly with any real complaint, and I think that there is a great deal of reason for thinking that there is substance in some of the complaints as the panel system is so largely adopted. The system of medical consultants may be developed and medical referees used more freely than in the past. It would be very unfair not to recognise the great services to the country and to insure persons as a whole rendered by this great and noble profession, but while I recognise the improvement there has been, I still hope that in the negotiations which the Minister will be making with the medical profession he will be able to secure terms which will enable us to look forward to a really great improvement in the medical service.
I desire in the first place to congratulate the Committee on the excellent, clear statement which the Minister made in his opening speech. It was clear in reference to the diseases which are most serious, and clear in its assurance, so contrary to the ordinary ideas, that such diseases as cancer and tuberculosis are not so serious as some others. But what particularly struck me was his exposition of what I might call the scientific basis of modern research into tuberculosis. I do not think that, if he had been a professor of pathology in one of our great universities, he could have made the matter clearer. Tuberculosis, it is interesting to know, is on the decline.
One point which occurs to me as important which was not referred to by the Minister is the question of milk sterilisation. In some countries it is the law. In Denmark you cannot sell milk that has not been sterilised. Doctors know that a great part of tuberculosis is due to milk. In reference to vaccination for small-pox, I agree with the Minister that it is essential, and that it is criminal to neglect it. I am sure that if any Member had seen a very bad case of small-pox he would be very glad to grasp at a remedy which had even one-tenth of the power of preventing small-pox which vaccination has.
On the question of voluntary hospitals. I am one of those who would like to see them continued. A voluntary hospital has the great advantage, particularly in the clinical department, that it attracts the best class of medical men, and I am sure that it is possible to continue the voluntary system, with the addition of some other system which the public maintain, and thus prevent the hospitals becoming national institutions, which I think would be a great disadvantage.
I would like to leave the subject of the insurance panel to others who know more about it than I. I have always been an opponent of the panel system, not so much to the system itself as because of the way in which it is worked, and I do hope that the present Minister of Health will be able to introduce some improvement and remedy the matter.
The few remarks which I have to make will be in the nature of an appeal to the Minister to do more of the work that his Department has entered upon. I think that the time has arrived when the Government of the day, no matter what party is in power, should spend more time and money on methods of preventing disease rather than waiting until it spreads, when bodies are broken, and then money has to be spent on the reclamation of those broken bodies. The hon. Member who spoke last referred to the milk supply in this country. There, I believe, we shall find the source of much of the disease that prevails. In making comparisons, one is much struck with the difference between the methods and standards which they have in America and the low standards of purity which we have in this country in reference to our milk supply. I think that we have something to learn from the action of the Americans in paying so much attention to such an important food supply as milk and its bearing upon the public health, especially on the health of the infants of the country.
The Report of the Astor Departmental Committee told us very definitely that the quantity of milk consumed in this country was too low, and the quality was deficient. The Government has all that information at its disposal. I want to plead with the Minister of Health to be a little more active along these lines. I think I am correct in saying that the only item in the Ministry of Health Estimates which bears directly on this matter is in respect of two temporary milk inspectors. I admit the local authorities have some powers under various Acts; they have powers for the inspection of cow-sheds, and they have also powers under the Sale of Foods and Drugs Act, but it generally happens that the one officer who has to look after this phase of local work is the sanitary inspector who is already overburdened. It would pay the Minister to increase his inspectorate nationally and also give some assistance locally to the authorities in order that they might carry out a much stricter supervision over the milk supply. So long as we have the present haphazard methods and so long as we have the element of profit-making, in connection with such an essential food supply, it means that the inspectorate which has to deal with the production and distribution will have to be greatly increased if we want to protect the population against the contamination which is in the milk supply of this country. The solution for the Minister is that he should impress upon the Government the necessity of passing and putting into force the Milk and Dairies Bill now lying before this House, which resuscitates some of the powers of the Milk and Dairies Act introduced in 1915, but rendered abortive. That will enable the municipalities to organise the production and distribution of milk without any element of profit-making, but as an essential public service and to produce the purest possible article, thereby conferring a great benefit on the people and raising the standard of the public health in their respective districts.
The Minister took unto himself great praise in reference to the decrease in infantile mortality, and it is a matter about which we all feel pleased, but I suggest that there is a lesson to be drawn from the figures which we have heard. Between the years 1911 and 1915 there was an average of 110 deaths per 1,000 infants in the 12 months. When you come to 1918 you find that average is reduced to 97, and coming down to the present year, already mentioned by the Minister, it is 77. What do those figures prove? We must all admit that maternity and child welfare work has never been so well administered in this country as it has been during the past four or five years. The public conscience has been quickened and local authorities have developed this side of their public health work, and the Minister will find that the reduction which he has to report for 1922 is the direct result of that good work. At a time when the Government is finding such wonderful results accruing from this work, I cannot understand the mentality which contends that we should smash the whole machinery which is bringing about those good results. The Minister will find that the mothers who record that low mortality are the mothers who in 1921 were protected by the maternity and child welfare care which the local authorities were able to bestow upon them. Having withdrawn that care and left the most defenceless section of our community open to the terrible effects of industrial depression and the havoc which it always works among the mothers and infants, it will be surprising if the Minister had not to stand at that Box next year and report an increase in the infantile mortality rate of this country. While you may reduce the Estimates for public health services, it does not necessarily follow that you are saving money. Apart from the human element, apart from the torture inflicted on people by present industrial and social conditions, we have to consider the matter from that practical standpoint. We have to remember the results of overcrowding and of compelling women to undergo maternity in one-roomed houses, and, as I say, while we reduce the amount spent on maternity and child welfare, it does not follow that we are saving money thereby.
An important statement made by the Minister was that he desired to see more pre-natal clinics. Here is a great method of prevention, and local authorities, with the assistance which they have received, have been developing in many respects the pre-natal treatment. I put in a special plea to the Minister that he should develop the system of the dental treatment of mothers. I regard it as one of the most useful preventive methods which can be applied both to safeguard the health of the mother and to give the infant a chance of a higher physical standard. I ask the Minister not to cut down the grants, but to encourage local authorities to go on with this work and to ensure that they receive, at any rate, the same assistance from the Minister as that which they received during the years which are now revealing such splendid results.
I also make an appeal to the Minister on behalf of those authorities who had to build sanatoria when the work was being transferred from the insurance committees to the county councils. I quite agree that perhaps some county councils may have been to blame in this respect, but they had no provision for the treatment of tuberculosis and they had to erect sanatoria when the duty was being handed over to them from the insurance committees. The Northumberland County Council is a case in point. They were asked by the Ministry to go on with this work at a time when building costs were at their highest, and the ultimate cost of the sanatorium erected by the Northumberland County Council was three' times more than the estimated contract price. The county council, however, were urged to go on even with the increased cost in order to make this provision for the victims of tuberculosis. The cost of these institutions represents a heavy charge on the nation, and in regard to this particular new institution the repayment of capital and other expenses involves a big charge on the ratepayers of Northumberland. County councils who find themselves in this position should receive generous consideration. My final appeal to the Minister is a general one for greater assistance in public health work. It is bread cast upon the waters. It does not show an advantage at the time, but it will return, after many days, in the shape of improved health for the men, women and children of this country.
Like the previous speaker I wish to refer in particular to the two subjects of milk supply and infant welfare. I think most hon. Members are agreed—certainly everybody who knows anything of the subject must agree—that infant welfare work has proved an overwhelming success. There are very few left in this House who' would say that the provision for that work is in any sense a waste of money. The nation found out that it could not afford to go on, as it had been going, with an enormous infant mortality. It was not only the question of the infants who died, but of the terrible effects produced on the infants who lived, through neglect and, probably, ignorance, on the part of parents. Many young mothers, through no fault of their own, have very little knowledge, and when the first child is horn, if they can get a little assistance and advice as to the care of the child such as they can get from the infant welfare centres, it is really a great saving to the State. I urge the Minister not to be put off by the people who cry "economy" when it comes to the care of the children, because no Minister has ever had the House more unitedly behind him on any subject than the right hon. Gentleman has upon this subject. The whole House will help him. We know perfectly well that he is going to have a fight with the Treasury. The Treasury naturally cannot take the same view of this matter as does the Minister of Health, because they look at it as a matter of pounds, shillings and pence, but the Minister of Health has got to look to human life and the moral welfare of the country. I am sure the Minister realises that no child who needs milk and who, through the poverty of its parents, cannot get milk should be allowed to go without it. We cannot afford it as a State.
I am not one of the believers in the doctrine of the survival of the fittest: I think it is a heathen doctrine, and that it is our duty as a State in times of distress to supply the children with milk if their parents cannot afford to do so. On the other hand, I am not in favour of helping a single parent who is in a position to give the children milk but who does not do so. There are parents so unenlightened that they will spend money on themselves, they will get the money for a glass of beer, while their children are in need of milk. You will find that even among the poor, but in all walks of life there are parents who do not put the welfare of their children ahead of everything. There are such parents—but they are very few—in all classes of life. At the present time, however, there are many tragic cases of parents who are too poor to provide milk and too proud to go to the infant welfare centres, and whose children are, I will not say dying, but not growing up in the way they should simply for lack of milk. In the last Parliament a great outcry was made about the alleged waste of this milk. We had an investigation in the winter of 1920–21, and it was reported that a certain amount of the milk supply which was supposed to go to the children went instead into the parents' tea. Well, there are always abuses in matters of this kind, but in this particular case the abuses were very few, and such as existed were made the most of by those concerned in the old economy stunt. When we went into these cases, we found there was no real ground for the suggestion of waste, and that there were very few abuses.
It is not only a question of providing milk for the children under one year, but also of providing milk for children who are over one year. The Minister has pointed out the tremendous improvement in the statistics regarding mortality among children under one year, but the death' rate among children between two and three years is still very high, and that is one of the great problems with which we have still to deal. The real way of dealing with it is by means of nursery schools, but I regret very much that matter does not come within the province of the Minister of Health. We have to face the fact that the mortality among children of between two and three years is colossal, and not only that, but the children who survive grow up in such a way, through neglect, that it would almost be better for them if they died, as they only become burdens to themselves and to the State. This matter was raised once before on the Education Estimates, and it was said then that a mother should look after her own children. We still hear that old cry. "Why should not a woman look after her children when they are two or three years of age; what is she doing?"
No woman, even if she had eight children and sixteen nurses to look after them, would voice that kind of sentiment in this House, because every woman knows that, with the conditions under which women are living now—mothers of four or five children, many of them under 10 years old—it is literally impossible for the mother to look after them. She cannot do it. Some people will say, "Why does she have them?" Why does she have them? That is not the question. They are here, and it is our duty to help them as much as we can, to see that they grow up fit and healthy citizens. If the Minister of Health would concentrate on those children between one year and five years old, he would be doing a great service to the State. I do not want them to fall between the educational authorities, on the one hand, and the Ministry of Health on the other. I wish hon. Members would think about the problem of these children, and I do not believe we can afford not to have nursery schools. I know the Minister of Health is very keen about the milk, and in that connection an hon. Member has referred to the Astor Report. It would really be a great service to the State if every Member of this House would read that Astor Report. I am not saying that because it bears the name of Astor, but because it is essential to the nation that we should face this question of milk supply.
Most of us have read it.
I know. I have no doubt about that, although I daresay I could find some hon. Members on the other side who have not. Milk is an essential food, and up-to-date and progressive countries are facing this question from the point of view of milk as a food. The Astor Report is thorough and complete. It is a little ahead of the time, but the reason of that is that the country as a whole does not know about it. It does not know the risks in regard to impure milk. We have got to see that we drink more milk and better milk. [An HON. MEMBER: "Whiskey."] I do not mind. As long as people think whiskey drinking helps them, let them do it, but the enlightened people know that it is far better for them to drink milk than whiskey, even if they do come from Scotland. If the Minister of Health goes on with his clean milk campaign and encourages the local authorities to go on with the question, he will do well, and he really cannot do much less, as he has the country behind him. If the milk supply is not better, it will be due to the Members of the House of Commons lacking in their duty. It really is our duty. We are always saying that what we want is a fine, healthy country. If we do want a fine, healthy country, we have to get right down to fundamentals and see what keeps us from being a fine, healthy country. [ Interruption. ] It is not private enterprise, of that I am certain.
Land monopoly in the slums.
I will not be drawn aside; I want to talk about this question of milk. We have not got clean milk at the present time. I do not believe you can get a clean glass of milk in the House of Commons. I am quite certain you cannot get Grade A milk. The Departmental Committee on Milk gave a most disquieting picture of the condition of our milk supply, and in London milk is sold which has been twice heated, and then they call it pasteurised. It is not pasteurised at all, but twice heated. You have to watch and see that the public and the local authorities are really keen on this question of milk, and it takes a great deal of watching, because even from the country the supply is so bad. It is not always a question of money. I know, because we run a milk farm. It is a question of the trouble that is necessary. Even without tubercle-free cows, you can at least get clean milk if you take the trouble. It is all a question of the way in which you clean the cows, and the hands of the dairymen and the dairymaids. It is a most interesting question altogether, and I am very proud that a former Member of the Sutton Division of Plymouth was prominently associated with that Committee. When we have secured a clean milk supply we have to have clinics and teach the workers—infant clinics and health visitors—for if you supply clean milk, and it is not covered, or it is put in the wrong place, it can easily get contaminated again.
I know the Minister of Health is as keen as anyone on this subject of milk, and I know what his difficulties will be. He will always be up against those shortsighted people who say that the country cannot afford to do it. I do not want the whole cry to come from the Opposition about this question of the welfare of the children. There are just as many hon. Members on this side as on the side of the official Opposition who really are interested in child welfare. [An HON. MEMBER: "Prove it in the Division Lobbies."] I guarantee that the best voluntary work in the country done today in every local authority comes from what you might call the possessing classes. You have got to face it. Perhaps they have got more time. Never mind, they are doing it on our infant welfare committees, a great deal, and hon. Members opposite know as well as I do about the splendid work that is being done throughout the country by voluntary workers of the possessing classes—what you call private enterprise. I am glad they are engaged in this splendid work of infant welfare. I beg of the Minister to be courageous with the Treasury. He has got the House behind him. He has got an enlightened House. [ laughter. ] Hon. Members opposite laugh, but let them wait until they get in power, and they will find exactly the same difficulty.
I know that we have a treasure as a Minister of Health. Very rarely do we get a man at the head of a public Department who knows as much about the local authorities and the welfare of the people as does the present Minister of Health, and I feel quite certain that if the Members on the Opposition Benches will look up the record of the Minister of Health in local work, they will find that no man in England stands higher. If he does not do well at the Ministry of Health, it is going to be his own fault. It is not going to be the fault of the Treasury, because he has the House of Commons behind him, and the House of Commons is more powerful than the Treasury. And he has more than that. He has every enlightened woman in the country behind him, and I thank God that women have got votes, because when it comes to a real question of infant welfare, or moral welfare, and where our best investment is, we shall go for the welfare of the children just as much as we did during the War for our national welfare. Once more I beg this House of Commons to look into this question of milk. I have heard a thousand questions asked about beer, but very few about milk. Beer is all very well, but impure beer will hurt only the people who drink it, while impure milk is a national menace and will hurt our future citizens.
I am glad to be able to join in the eloquent appeal of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) and of those hon. Members who have spoken from these benches, that the Minister of Health should do more than he proposes to do, according to the Estimates, with regard especially to infant welfare centres and milk supply. I do so with the more confidence because I think the Committee can seldom have listened to a deeper note of human sympathy than was struck by the Minister himself in the most interesting narrative which he unfolded with regard to the work of his Department. Instead of getting a patchwork of figures, as so often happens when we are dealing with Estimates, we had a real human story unfolded, and if only we could turn to the figures which are given in his Estimates and find that they supported the appeal which he made, we should have more assurance. It is somewhat remarkable, after the speech that he made, that, on turning to the Estimates themselves, we find that on these particular services to which he drew our attention, of which he spoke in the most glowing terms, and of which he told us that the money therein spent was money wisely expended, there is a reduction in the amount which he is proposing to spend with regard to maternity and child welfare centres of £167,000, and, with regard to tuberculosis sanatoria, a reduction of £53,000.
Those figures surely belie the statement of the Minister. He shakes his head, and one is hoping that there will be Supplementary Estimates brought in later which will show that the expenditure in this year in these two particular departments will not be less than it has been in the preceding years. Surely the population is larger and the need greater than it has been in preceding years. We all know, as members of local authorities, of the circulars that were unfortunately issued by the predecessor of the present Minister of Health, dealing with the question, particularly, of milk supply, and one is glad that part, at any rate, of those circulars has been withdrawn, but at the same time it is a fact, as has already been stated, that there are still restrictions on the activities of local health authorities when they desire to extend those activities with regard to child welfare centres and tuberculosis work. Therefore, I join with other hon. Members in appealing to the Minister that he should, in his administration, have a more sympathetic regard to the work of which he himself has spoken in terms of the highest praise, and of which he knows more, perhaps, than anyone even on this side of the House. He would have the whole House behind him in the fight which he would have to put up with the Treasury on this point, as the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division has said. Surely he would have a strong argument. Instead of reducing by £200,000 these valuable services, if they can afford to spend an increased £5,500,000 on our Air Service, which may or may not be required, they certainly can afford to spend £250,000 more on the health services of the country, that do such excellent work in reducing the ordinary death rate, in extending the expectation of life, and more particularly in reducing the infant death rate. Therefore we urge him to maintain a firm stand against the Treasury on this point.
I will not refer to the many interesting topics to which the Minister referred, for I want more especially to deal for a minute or two with a question which has been before his Department for some time, going back indeed for over a year. Requests have been made to him from local authorities, and to his predecessor and to the, predecessor of that right hon. Gentleman, in regard to the very heavy burden cast upon industrial areas for the services of unemployment through the Poor Law guardians, and the other services which are necessary for health. I know the Minister is sympathetic to the claims put forward in this House in regard to what are commonly called necessitous areas. Relief has been given by way of allowing loans for a somewhat brief period. I submit to the Minister, as he knows full well, that merely to allow a local authority which is on the verge of bankruptcy to borrow more money, which it will have to repay with interest within the immediate future, is merely postponing the evil day, and is not giving any real relief. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that he should not further delay the settlement of a matter of this kind. We know he has been fully occupied with his Housing Bill, with the Rent Restrictions Bill, and I, therefore, do not want to press him unduly, but when all is said and done the matter has been before his Department now for well over 12 months. Surely his Department, excellently staffed as it is, will be able to deal with the matter—with his sanction—with expedition! They have only to give during the next few weeks the necessary time to the point.
May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that this matter is even more pressing than it was. Whereas the burden on the ratepayer in different parts of the country is being reduced in certain areas, in other districts it is increasing. That emphasises the need for immediate action. I find that whereas the average of unemployment that goes to add to the burden of the local ratepayer is 11 per cent., according to the latest Returns given out by the Ministry of Labour, we have on the north-east coast in the engineering trade have 19 per cent, of the men unemployed, and in shipbuilding 38 per cent, of the total. This latter is not due as possibly some hon. Members might think, to the present unfortunate dispute. It may be due to the extent of one or two points to that dispute, but the amount of unemployment was well over 35 per cent, and at one time it got as high as 40 per cent. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, the more because the Treasury, that is the Government, have sanctioned assistance for rural authorities. I put it to the Minister of Health that if £2,750,000 can be granted to assist the ratepayers in the rural areas, and so reduce—according to the return of rating which the Minister has issued for the United Kingdom for the years 1921–2–3—the rural rates to an average of less than 11s. in the £, whereas1 the average of urban rates is 15s. in the £, on the same grounds I submit he cannot fairly resist the claims of those who are more heavily burdened.
Figures have been taken out showing the amount of this burden and the relief given throughout the country. The question is not merely as to the amount raised in rates, but the question is one of the expenditure covered by these loans, which, I think the Minister said, in an answer to a question the other day, amounted to something like £8,000,000 or £10,000,000. This money has to be repaid. The figures have been worked out, and accepted, I think, by the Department of the right hon. Gentleman, as being sound. We find that whereas the average expenditure during last year on Poor Law purposes over the whole country was 3s. 2d. in the £, you have in towns like Bedwelty an expenditure of 13s. 3d., in Sheffield l1s. 5d., West Ham 8s. 6d., and Middlesbrough 7s. 6d. When you have a burden fluctuating like that and bearing so inequitably upon the very poorest districts of all, then I think the House and the Minister will admit a case has been made out for consideration of the claim I put forward. We are being burdened up to breaking point. This is not a party question. It is more than an industrial question. It is one affecting the whole country, because until manufacturers get going and trade improves there is no hope for any reduction in either rates or taxes.
It is impossible to increase trade and get more work for industries which are burdened by these heavy and exceptional rates. I noticed on this point a report in the newspapers referring to the firm of John Brown and Company, Limited, of Sheffield. Lord Aberconway, as chairman, speaking at the annual meeting, said:
I should like to associate myself with what has been said in congratulation to the Minister of Health for his able, very satisfactory, and most intelligent statement, and the result of his work. I should like to congratulate him at the same time on what was more than an academic dissertation on bacteriology. There are one or two points raised in debate on which I should like to say something. The first point was dealt with by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). Like many hon. Members on the Labour Benches, he seems to be a very violent opponent of vaccination. He said, in regard to the question of the epidemic in Gloucester, where certain difficulties of diagnosis had arisen, that the present generation of medical men were not able to recognise small-pox when they came in contact with it. Surely that is one of the strongest arguments in favour of vaccination that we can have! I can assure the hon. Member that in my younger days we always recognised small-pox when we saw it; we had no difficulty in diagnosing it. No medical man in those days would have mistaken chicken-pox for small-pox. I have worked through two or three serious epidemics in England, on board ship, and also abroad, and I should like some hon. Members to go into this vexed question with open minds, because if they did, I think they would discover some appalling things.
Let me draw the attention of hon. Members to two or three homely truths. Many hon. Members like myself can go far enough into the last century to be struck by the fact that when they walk along the street now they rarely meet a pock-marked person, a sight by no means uncommon when I was a young man. I should like some of the hon. Members on the Labour Benches to go with me, and I could show them cases of small-pox that I think might make them appreciate more the point of view that is sometimes put before them, and from which they dissent. They, I know, and others make a great point of improved sanitation in respect to the improved national health, with special reference to small-pox. To a certain extent and degree that is perfectly true. That is not the whole story. I would ask hon. Members to consider two or three very important zymotic diseases. Take, for instance, scarlet fever, measles, and small-pox. It is probably fair to say that each of these three diseases has been subjected to exactly the same sanitary conditions. There is no difference there in respect to any of the three. But whereas we notice that scarlet fever is as prevalent to-day as it was, that measles is as prevalent to-day as it was, small-pox, up to the last year or two, had practically died out of the country.
7.0 P.M.
I wish merely to give these facts. I do not wish to draw any inference from them. I will leave hon. Members to draw their own conclusions. But what has been the reason of this diminution in the incidence of small-pox? I should like also to point out to the Committee a circumstance which came to my notice only a fortnight ago. I was talking to a surgeon on one of our great liners that voyages out to South America. He told me that, whereas years ago ships from this country were always looked upon as health ships by the authorities in South American ports, recently—that is during the last few months—they had come to be looked upon as coming from a dangerous area, and orders might be issued for vaccination or revaccination. The authorities in Rio and one other city in South America issued orders by which all the members of the crews of ships who formerly, when in port, were allowed to go ashore unexamined, have now to produce a certificate from the surgeon of the ship, or from some other doctor, that they have been vaccinated or revaccinated recently. Why should this country, of all countries in the world, refuse to enforce vaccination? Hon. Members will say, "Interference with the liberty of the subject," but even that El Dorado of liberty, that unhappy country, Russia, with all her callous disregard for human suffering and life, has had to have recourse to vaccination to guard themselves against the ravages of small-pox. It is perhaps a presumption on my part to point out that under the Act, as at present in force in this country, the parents of every child over the age of six months must produce a certificate either of vaccination, or that they have a conscientious objection to vaccination. But of late years I cannot recall half-a-dozen prosecutions under the Act, notwithstanding the fact that in many cases children are not vaccinated, and the parents do not even take the trouble to obtain a certificate of conscientious objection. Very little action is taken by the authorities. I am not asking for fresh legislation, or for the repeal of existing legislation. I am asking that the law of the land, such as it is, shall be carried into effect.
I was very interested to hear my hon. Friend speak of tuberculosis, and, in view of Mr. Spahlinger's new treatment of consumption, I was specially interested in what he had to say. It was said that shortly it was hoped that there would be a supply of serum and a supply of vaccine for treatment. Unfortunately, I believe that will not be the case. Mr. Spahlinger—who, by the way, is not a medical man, but a bacteriologist—has worked for 20 years on this. He has spent the whole of his private fortune, amounting to some £80,000, and some little time ago, at the time of the capital levy in Switzerland, the banks came down on him, and practically all he had had to be sacrificed. The position to-day is that unless there is some help forthcoming within a very few weeks, Mr. Spahlinger's establishment and his apparatus will have to be sold. I wish my right hon. Friend, rather than spending hundreds of thousands a year on sanatoria, would devote a few thousand pounds to helping Mr. Spahlinger, thereby conferring a great benefit on suffering humanity.
The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), in his speech this afternoon, dealt with the panel system. I have always disagreed with the contract practice in any shape or form, yet I realise that the Health Insurance Act is law to-day, and it is up to the medical profession to carry it out. I would like to call attention to some mis-statements made by the hon. Member in regard to the number of panel patients. I think that about 34 per cent, of insurance practitioners have less than 600 insured persons on their lists, that 30. per cent. have between 600 and 1,000, and only 14 per cent, have over 2,000 on their list. If the Ministry would remove——
Is the hon. Member suggesting that the practitioner with 4,000 on his list should keep them?
I think 3,000 would be sufficient. I found that practitioners who were more or less dependent on their insurance work did the best work. The hon. Member also said that it was very difficult to change the doctor. Six months is rather a long time, and I would agree with my hon. Friend in saying that three months would be quite sufficient, but at the same time I would point out that it is not wise for an insured person, or for any other person, to change his doctor too frequently. If people constantly change their doctor they will find that the doctor will take very little interest in them, knowing their mind in this respect. Although, as I said before, I was a bitter opponent of the system, and I grant that in the early days the work was bad, today I am of the opinion that the work is cheerfully, well, and efficiently done, and, although there may be here and there regrettable cases—I suppose there must be black sheep everywhere—I think that practitioners are giving good service. An hon. Member complained that the Ministry had stopped the supply of milk to children who had been fed by their own mothers, and, as a medical man, I think the Department are quite right. The mother's milk is the best, and I tremble to think what would be the effect of giving milk in a case where a child was getting one meal from the breast and the next meal supplied. I hope the Minister will enforce the Vaccination Act. I have had great experience of small-pox. If we had an epidemic in the country now, with the millions of unvaccinated people, I believe it would not only entail an enormous amount of suffering, but that it would mean a, very high death-rate, and I appeal to the Minister to do something at once to carry out the provisions of the Vaccination Act.
The hon. Member has made a very useful speech. He referred to a subject with which I myself intended to deal. He has drawn attention to the perilous condition of the country in view of the number of unvaccinated people. Is it not too late in the day to discuss the question of vaccination and non-vaccination? The experience of the world is practically unanimously in favour of vaccination against small-pox. The hon. Member spoke of the work of Dr. Spahlinger. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is not a doctor."] He is a bacteriologist. You may say that Pasteur was not a doctor. He was a bacteriologist. Hon. Members who follow the whole history of modern toxine treatment and modern serums cannot deny the fact that the whole modern scientific treatment of disease is on a similar principle to that of vaccination, and, therefore, they ought not to be led away on a subject of this kind. Why should we have small-pox creeping through the country in order to prove that the great majority of the world is wrong? Take Russia in 1874. There was compulsory vaccination, and you will find that small-pox did not exist, but it has been growing for the last year. It is the same in Mexico, and these are not very highly-advanced countries. The sanitary conditions of Mexico are terrible, and the cases of many diseases are bad indeed, but small-pox has almost died out owing to vaccination. We are living in a very dangerous fools' paradise. There is no doubt that owing to vaccination small-pox has become a milder disease than it used to be in the past, but there is great danger, and it has been expressed to me by one of the leading men in the country. I venture to say that if an epidemic started there would be an immediate demand for vaccination throughout this country, but it would then be too late. Those interested in this subject do not want us to have a population marked with small-pox. The best established medical opinion and the Ministry of Health has already issued warning notices, and I hope my right hon. Friend will not allow himself to be diverted from exercising the fullest powers he can in order to deal effectively with this matter. If he does make that attempt, I am sure he will have behind him the support of all those who really care for the public health.
The work of Professor Spahlinger has already been referred to. I took very great interest in his work when I was at the Ministry of Health, and a report of a very remarkable and interesting character was received by me. We came to the assistance of this eminent scientific man, and we made an arrangement with him to supply us with sufficient of his serum in order to make some tests in our hospitals. I would like to know how that matter stands now, and I wish to know whether something cannot be done in order to save 20 years of serious scientific work which promises extraordinary results from extinction from purely financial reasons.
The Minister of Health is in the happy position of having received an encomium from the Noble Lady (Viscountess Astor), who made such an eloquent speech. While I was at the Ministry of Health I managed to save the health services to a great extent from the Geddes axe; in fact, to a greater extent than I anticipated. Now that we are in easier financial circumstances, I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take further steps forward. I do not know of anyone who has been Minister of Health who does not realise and agree that the maternity and child welfare work is one of the most satisfactory pieces of work which has been achieved in modern times, because it shows real results, and a real return for the money which has been expended upon it. My opinion is that it ought to be still further developed. In regard to this subject, when I was in office I was in a position of difficulty for lack of funds, but I did make a start, and it was my intention to take further steps if I had remained in office. I am glad that my right hon. Friend is in a position to carry out and continue that work, and resume the development of day nurses scheme, and other very useful adjuncts towards which we were working. The whole question of the medical treatment of children requires co-ordination. The present division of the work between the Minister of Health and the Board of Education in regard to the children is, to my mind, not really satisfactory. I have always felt that for the Ministry of Health to deal with a child up to a certain age and then for that child to be handed over to another Department was an unscientific and somewhat uneconomic way of working. There is a great deal of overlapping in the whole of our medical services. You have a great number of welfare workers and health visitors to some extent doing the work of the clinical school and the doctor, and in every direction you find a good deal of money being spent, and overlapping goes on. I feel very certain from my own experience that some co-ordination could take place in regard to these various services.
It is the same with regard to the hospitals. We tried to make the Poor Law infirmary into a sort of municipal hospital, and it is a mistake to call it a Poor Law infirmary, because it is the one institution maintained out of the rates to which everybody has a right of access in case of illness. In large towns these infirmaries are well staffed. In one particular case arrangements were made in co-operation with the medical men of the town which enabled very much greater service to be rendered, so far as medical service was concerned, than had been the case in the past. We want the linking up of our voluntary hospitals, and of these other institutions, to enable a greater amount of specialisation treat- ment to take place. We found the same difficulty when dealing with the problem of National Health Insurance. There, again, the medical service up to a point is satisfactory, if not perhaps ideal, but you want to build up from the panel doctor to the specialist, and complete what is to-day an incomplete medical service.
I know the matter is very complicated. It is difficult for any doctor in general practice to improve matters, and it is impossible for him to deal with difficult cases. You want to take your National Health Insurance as the foundation, and build up with it some co-operation with specialists and have a more complete system. We have had many discussions on this subject. We had an interesting discussion last year on the administration of National Health Insurance, and I think the Minister of Health will agree that a full inquiry ought to be held into the working of that scheme. It has been in operation now for a considerable number of years, and experience has demonstrated both its good and its weak points. It has been one of the greatest measures of social welfare ever introduced into this country, and no one doubts that it has come to stay.
During the years in which it has been in operation it has shown weaknesses on the medical and administration side, and I think the time has come to appoint a Committee to overhaul the whole of the machinery and to see what further developments are now required. I think such an inquiry would work in conjunction with the Report of the Committee which was set up when I was Minister of Health to deal with the possibility of endeavouring to amalgamate National Health Insurance and the administration of Unemployment Insurance. Reports were issued on this question, and great as the technical difficulties are, I still believe that it is possible to achieve a great deal of administrative efficiency and much economy by the working more closely together of our two great insurance schemes.
There is a point in connection with the medical aspect of this question upon which I should like some information. The right hon. Gentleman will remember the Report of the Committee which went into the question of teaching hygiene. If the Minister can give us any information as to how this matter has proceeded, and what progress is being made with the erection of the building for the Imperial College of Hygiene which we owe to the generosity of the Rockfeller Foundation, I shall be extremely obliged. With regard to the Report made by Sir Cyril Cobb on lunacy administration, I must say that it gave me considerable concern when I held office, and I am glad that some of his ideas have been worked out and are in process of becoming law. I am sure there is plenty of scope for improvement in our legislation on that subject, and I hope my right hon. Friend will tell us what progress has been made. No doubt much bigger schemes will occupy our attention.
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) raised a point which was pressed upon me when I was in office in regard to the high rates in necessitous urban areas. That is a very difficult problem, and we marked time on it to some extent in the hope that unemployment would rapidly diminish, and the pressure would decrease1. The problem of unemployment has not by any means diminished as much as one could have anticipated, and the position of those local authorities is undoubtedly becoming more and more difficult. It was suggested that instead of granting loans the State should make grants in other ways. I am not sufficiently familiar with the circumstances of those areas and their financial position to offer any opinion, but I do think that the whole problem requires reconsideration, and these areas are certainly entitled to further consideration than I was able to give them at the time, because we were not in a position then to relieve the ratepayers of any part of their burden. If I had been in office I certainly should never have consented to the handing over of so much money for the relief of agriculture. My whole argument is based on the financial question and on the importance of every area bearing its own burden as far as may be. If the Government decide out of the kindness of its heart to hand over a large amount of the taxpayers' money to the urban ratepayer and the agricultural ratepayer, it will be felt that in common justice those areas whose needs no one disputes—and with whose difficulties nobody is more familiar than I am—have the much stronger claim. I would therefore associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and urge on the Minister, who is essentially the guardian of our civic life in urban districts, to see if he cannot obtain some relief in that direction.
That really raises a much bigger question—the whole question of the re-modelling of our Poor Law which, of course, now is many years overdue. The difficulties of these urban areas is undoubtedly due to the fact that a Poor Law system which may have been well adapted to the times of Queen Elizabeth is not adapted to modern days. These difficulties have been brought about by conditions of the most acute unemployment. The claims of these districts have had my heartiest sympathy, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman during his tenure of office—which, I trust, will be longer than mine was, because this will require considerable time to deal with it—will find an opportunity of considering the question. Many recommendations have been made in order to remodel the existing Poor Law system. There is the question of the size of the area—the present arrangement is quite out of date. Look at the difficulty which exists in Sheffield, where abnormal burdens have been thrown on the ratepayers owing to the fact that people entered the city during the War to become ammunition workers, and now, having lost their employment, find that they cannot return to the place whence they came, and the burden of their maintenance is being thrown on the ratepayers of Sheffield, whereas, if they could be sent back, that burden would be spread over a much wider area. It must be obvious to anyone who considers it that our present tendency to put new wine into old bottles raises a problem of local administration which will have to be dealt with. The right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, is not one who wishes to pass his time in a Ministry of tranquillity. I am confident, in view of the many controversial subjects which require to be dealt with, he desires to contribute towards their solution.
I want a little information with regard to one or two important Commissions which have reported in recent times. There was the Royal Commission on the County of London government, presided over by Lord Ullswater, which made very important recommendations, as far as the government of London is concerned. I hope that those recommendations will soon find some practical application. The government of London is one of the most difficult problems facing our modern administration, and the Report of the Royal Commission has made some very valuable contributions towards the solution of the problem, which I hope in time will be duly embodied in legislation. There was also a Committee, presided over by Lord Meston, dealing with the subject of block grants to local authorities. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when it is anticipated that that Committee will make its Report, and if it will be at an early date and in time for the Estimates for next year to be based on its recommendations? I am sure it would be much more satisfactory to local authorities to receive their grants for health services in a block grant and for them to be left to allocate the money in such manner as they think best, rather than they should continue under the present system with grants varying in proportion for specific purposes. The local authorities, as a rule, know best which particular service in their locality is most important, and, therefore, I feel sure a system such as that recommended would simplify the task of preparing the Estimates for the Ministry of Health, and the calculations from a Treasury point of view, and would also be of considerable advantage to the local authorities. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to deal with the important Report on venereal diseases, made by another Commission, which must be congratulated on having succeeded in achieving the impossible, by reconciling the conflict of two ardent bodies of reformers, who were engaged in a strong controversy as to the best means to be adopted for the prevention of this disease. I believe the Commission actually made a unanimous Report, and their recommendations, which are, undoubtedly, of very great value, may require legislation. I am not sure of that, but certainly they must have the most serious consideration at the hands of the Minister in charge of the health of the country.
I do not want to go into the question of pure milk at any length, but I should like to be informed what progress is being made with the establishment of that great end on which big hopes were placed when the last Milk Bill became an Act in this House—the production and sale of Grade A milk. I was in hope then that the public interest would become so stimulated in obtaining better grade milk at reasonable prices that in a relatively short time impure milk would become an unsaleable article. Has not sufficient time elapsed to enable us to judge to what extent that hope was justified? The aim of establishing Grade A milk was to obtain the best supply, and it would be interesting to know if the demand has increased and if any progress has been made in regard to this matter. There are many other questions which I am sure must involve much serious consideration at the hands of the Minister, and I hope he will understand that my criticisms have been offered in the sympathetic hope that he will be able to achieve great things in his Department in the interests of the health of the country.
I am interested in some of the points raised by the right hon. Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) and I too am anxious to know in regard to the milk supply if the Minister can give any assurance that there is any evidence of progress in the production of Grade A milk. This is a question we have pressed not on this Government, but on the Government of the right hon. Gentleman who last spoke. The last Act was of a purely voluntary and permissive character and gave very little power to the local authorities to take any really effective steps towards the production of pure clean milk supplies. On the general question of milk I should like to urge on the Minister of Health that, in the interests of the whole community, it would be a very good thing if the Department could officially engage in national propaganda for the extension of the sale of milk generally, and if it would try and educate the people to drink more milk than they are doing at the present time. Some of us have been connected with inquiries which the Government have set up with regard to the state of the agricultural industry, and there are people now connected with that industry who also want some propaganda work done with regard to the extension of the sale and consumption of milk. Apart from that I think it would be of immense value to the nation as a whole, if the Minister of Health undertook some really live propaganda through the various agencies he possesses for the development of the consumption of milk.
With regard to the provisions of the last Milk Order, I want to suggest it is very desirable, in the interests of the community, that there should be, especially in view of the postponement of the Act of 1914–15, an increasing sale and consumption of milk which has been scientifically pasteurised. We have had commercial pasteurisation, which was not really pasteurisation at all, and which deprived the milk of many of the essential vitamines necessary for the building up of physique, and which, while it may have destroyed many of the bacteria in the milk, certainly rendered it in the long run less valuable to human life than raw milk itself. We have now an Order which again seems to me to be likely to have little effect. It requires that in future all milk sold as pasteurised should be treated by scientific methods. That is all to the good, but the difficulties are such that unless some steps are taken by the Minister in other directions we fear that the milk-distributing trade generally will simply say, "We cannot tackle this problem with the conditions as they are. It would pay us far better to go on selling raw milk as it is."
There is one essential problem which has to he tackled by the Government. The Order places the whole of the onus for compliance with the conditions on the milk distributors—there is no onus at all on the producers—and one thing which has to be tackled by the Government, if this state of things is to be improved, is the question of railway transit. I am aware that it is not the function of the Ministry of Health to lay down conditions as to railway transport, but it is in the interests of the Ministry of Health, and also of the general supply of milk and the standard of supply, which are an essential part of the health of the people. I believe the Ministry ought to represent strongly to the Rates Tribunal, which was set up under the Railways Act of 1921, that it is high time, especially now, when they are seeing far more profits than they have been obtaining in the last two years, that the long distance borne milk, which is used very largely in our industrial areas, and especially in London, should be conveyed under far better conditions than is the case at present. We want properly ventilated refrigerating vans; we want a more direct and efficient service for towns from the producer and from the co-operative collector of milk. We do not want, as we have frequently found to be the case, that perhaps dirty fish trucks are used, and things of that kind, for the transport of milk to the large towns; or that, instead of getting a fast and through service from the farms to the city, the milk vans have been very often left to stand in the sidings in the hot sun, hour after hour, thus nullifying any arrangements the producer may have made to keep the milk at a proper temperature.
The other thing that is absolutely essential if the Ministry are going to promote a larger consumption of efficiently treated milk is that, sooner or later, they will have to secure that all the milk of this country is supplied in sealed bottles. I know that will mean a very big issue, from a commercial point of view, but the evil effect of the policy of the Department during the last three or four years has1 been that, though they have made provision for the production and distribution of certified milk tubercle free, of Grade A milk, and of pasteurised milk, the really beet milk under these Orders can only be obtained by people who can afford to pay high prices. The supply and consumption of milk is so important a matter that the whole problem ought to be undertaken by the Government with all possible speed—not by sporadic efforts in various localities—in order to ensure a generally high level of milk supply throughout the country. I do not believe we can get that until we compel all milk distributors to go in for bottling, and when we have done that we ought not to talk about economy, as we did last year, when the 1922 Amending Act was put on the Statute Book, and say that this country cannot afford £750,000 for administration, inspection and inquiry. I submit that to get a pure supply, we shall have to be prepared to do what they did in America, where, in order to ensure their supply, they instituted proper and efficient methods at the farms, and we must not, as at present, lay the whole of the onus for complying with the conditions on the distributor.
In industrial areas like Sheffield we have felt very much the attitude of the Ministry—apparently it has been modified of late—towards the infant welfare and maternity work. Although the Minister has been eulogised—and I think justly—for his statement this afternoon, it is disconcerting to find that the items of expenditure in this Estimate with regard to these matters of infant welfare and maternity are dropping at present very considerably. We want the result, of which the Minister was justly proud—the reduction in infant mortality among children under 12—to be not only maintained but considerably improved on; and we want, if we can, to do away with much of the terrible mortality amongst our working-class women in child-birth. That, I think, emphasises more and more the point mentioned by the Minister as to the need for the extension of pre-natal clinics. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), in his speech earlier to-day, said, quite justly, that the Minister, while he had made an able statement, had really omitted to deal at all with the greatest burden on the people, namely, that of poverty. I represent a city of which the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) has been speaking. We can, of course, appreciate that all is grist that comes to the mill when it is an argument in favour of a necessitous area, but we hardly expected a few months ago that our claims in regard to the particular burdens of Sheffield and similar localities would be reinforced by the right hon. Gentleman, who was so particularly stony-hearted when we were dealing with this question. Possibly, the effects of our representations, and of some elections last November, have had something to do with changing his attitude.
In Sheffield, this question of poverty is one to which no Minister of Health ought to turn a deaf ear. We have been urging upon him again and again, as well as upon his predecessor, that the burden of Sheffield, and of other necessitous areas, is absolutely intolerable. It was suggested by the right hon. Member for West Swansea that the Government's attitude last year was more or less governed by the pious hope that unemployment was going down, and that the extraordinary burden placed on the Poor Law authorities for the relief of unemployment would not be continued at the rate which then existed. In Sheffield we claim that we have, pro rata of the population, and especially in relation to the efforts which have been made by an efficient Town Council to restrict expenditure, the most pressing problem of any area in this country, not even excluding the area whose claims are so often eloquently put forward by the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones). In spite of all that we have put up to the Minister, we have always had to be content with this answer, "The matter will be considered." I have come to the conclusion that if only we could get some hon. Members on the Government Benches to take the same attitude in regard to the Government, as was that adopted at one point on the Finance Bill last week by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), we should make some progress. The right hon. Member last week say that if the Government did not give way on a certain point, he would be bound to go into the Division Lobby against them. Of course, that meant that he would take with him practically the whole of the agricultural group, and I noticed that the Government immediately gave way on the particular point he was pressing.
indicated dissent .
Yes, they did, and about the only concession on the Entertainments Duty last week was the one in which the right hon. Member for Chelmsford said that if he did not get it he would vote against the Government. If only we could induce a number of supporters of the Government to take the same line as the agricultural group have done, and evidently are doing in order to obtain the concessions they desire, there might be some hope of getting a move on with regard to these necessitous areas. Let me tell the Noble Lord how serious the position is. I am quoting, not from old papers, but from to-day's "Sheffield Independent." I find that yesterday, in the Sheffield Police Court, over 3,000 citizens were summoned for non-payment of rates, not because they refuse to pay the rates, but because they are unable to do so. Even after this long period of unemployment we have now in Sheffield nearly 30,000 people unemployed, and there is this increasing problem for the "local autho- rity, that they have, after the Police Court proceedings, to allow these rates to be paid in instalments, and there is an ever-increasing burden not only of debt, but of arrears in regard to the collection of rates. Let me remind the Noble Lord, also, in the hope that he will say something about this when he replies, of the immense burden on Sheffield in relation to its population and to its rates. I find that for the four half years to Michaelmas, 1922, the burden of providing relief for unemployment alone in Sheffield worked out at £3 3s. per head of the population. Even in West Ham, the burden, on the same basis, only amounted to £1 13s. 11d. per head, compared with £3 3s. in Sheffield, and with £l 7s. 1d. in the area represented by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), and whose claims he has so eloquently voiced.
Let me give the Noble Lord one or two comparative figures as to the incidence of the Poor Law rate for 1922–23. During that time, Poor Law relief was levied as follows: has to be provided in regard to local rates, so that the very poverty of Sheffield at the present time is made the reason for its continuing to be poor in the future, because the Government have not recognised their duty in regard to the relief of the necessitous areas.
8.0 P.M.
I know that the Noble Lord, and also the Minister of Health, may possibly feel that we have become almost too insistent upon this particular matter, but surely, when the Government, almost as soon as they are pressed to do so by the agricultural industry—I do not say at once—give a relief of nearly £3,000,000—not to the areas of the agricultural industry particularly, but a general grant for the relief of the whole industry, irrespective of which portion of it is particularly suffering—it is not too much for us to ask that areas like Sheffield should have definite urgent relief. I would also remind the Noble Lord that the argument has been put up again and again by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea, and his predecessor as Minister of Health, that one of the main difficulties they found in arranging a scheme or formula for the relief of necessitous areas was that there would be a great danger of the local authority which obtained relief not exercising sufficient economy or even being guilty of extravagance. It is rather late in the day for the Government to use that argument, having regard to the fact that in giving relief to the agricultural industry they required no such control. They are giving relief without any control of the local authority who will have the spending of the money. This was also mentioned in the first important speech made by the present Minister of Health after he took his responsible post. He said there were some difficulties in defining what is a necessitous area. That may apply to some cases, but so far as Sheffield is concerned, I think even the few figures I have been able to give him should leave no doubt in his mind, and in the mind of the Ministry, that Sheffield is a necessitous area, in my judgment the most necessitous area in the whole country.
After the services given to the country by the City of Sheffield, its contributions to national safety, to national welfare and the services of the Great influx of population during the War in time of great national anxiety, it seems scurvy treatment indeed that year after year the trial of this people should go on, and the Government are content, after using them for their own purposes during the War, not to come now to their assistance. I repeat to the Noble Lord, not as a party question, that the case which has been put up to him and his Department should no longer be shelved. We are tired of being gently, if courteously, put off with a settlement of what is to us an urgent and important problem. I hope that in the reply to-night we shall have some assurance that the Minister has-made up his mind, that, if he cannot accept the formula which we have submitted to him, he shall have some formula of his own to meet the situation, and that we shall get some relief.
I may say that I do not think the medical profession needs any champion or apologist because I know the esteem and affection in which it is held by the public, but I would like to make some remarks in reply to the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), who is not now in the Chamber, before I pass on to a more important subject. I feel rather independent in any remarks I may make on this subject, because I never had anything to do with national insurance. I am one of those curious people who like to feel my soul is my own, and another reason is that I do not happen to be a member of the alleged trade union. As far as my eperience goes, and it is a pretty large one, the work done by the panel doctors is as a rule, in the vast majority of cases, extremely good. It is vastly superior to anything that obtained under the old dispensation, and I have had an opportunity of watching both phases. Of course, there are men who shirk their work—and there are black sheep in every flock—but taking their services as a whole and considering that it is a new service, which is now undergoing the natural process of evolution, the work of the panel doctors is sound and efficient and improving every day. The hon. Member for West Woolwich seems to need tuition in the meaning of words. He referred to the word "treatment." He said the patients of panel doctors do not receive good treat- ment, and he said the accommodation in the waiting rooms of panel doctors was very bad The word "treatment" is a word which describes what passes between patient and doctor, and the advice the doctors give to the patients for the treatment of the particular disease from which the patient is suffering, whereas the word to describe the waiting room in which the patient is received is the word "accommodation." Does the hon. Gentleman expect a panel doctor to receive his patient in a room with a fine carpet, with luxurious couches and armchairs, and a copy of the latest number of "Punch"? The money does not run to it. It is, of course, proper that the usual amenities should be supplied in the waiting room, but it must be remembered that there is often the greatest difficulty in certain districts in obtaining accommodation. As a rule the doctors try to do their best, and if the attention of the doctor is drawn to the fact that the accommodation is not good enough he will do his best to make it better.
Another allegation the hon. Member for West Woolwich made was not so much against the medical profession as against the Ministry of Health. He seemed to think that the Ministry were not doing all they should do to provide preventive medicine. But I would remind him that the whole function of the Ministry is to provide preventive medicine. Housing is preventive medicine; the building of houses and providing healthy houses for the public is preventive medicine. The reason why the Ministry of Health deals with that subject is because it is preventive medicine. It is preventing people incurring danger to their constitutions by living in defective houses. In the same way, ordinary sanitation is purely and simply preventive medicine. Food inspection, meat inspection, vaccination, infant welfare, and the school medical service are all preventive medicine, and, although, unfortunately, owing to the existing position the power of the Ministry of Health to help in the building of houses is limited, yet, though the wheels of the Ministry of Health grind slowly and surely, they grind very small, with the assistance of the various local authorities, and as they do so, the ordinary preventive work is carried on. I do not think that the hon. Member for West Woolwich need worry himself very much about the fact that the preventive side of the Ministry of Health is likely to be neglected.
The question to which I wish to draw the attention of this Committee is one that I consider of vital importance. It is the very inadequate support, the very inadequate encouragement and the very inadequate financial assistance that is given by the Ministry of Health towards the carrying out of cancer research. I do not think the public quite appreciate the prevalence of this dreadful disease. Worse than the prevalence of it is that its prevalence is increasing by leaps and bounds. I will give a few figures which I think will prove that. During the four decades from 1881 to 1890, from 1891 to 1900, from 1901 to 1910, from 1911 to 1920, and in the year 1921, the deaths from cancer were 610, 767, 867, 966, and 1,007 per million of the population. That is an increase in 40 years from 610 to 1,007. In England and Wales deaths from cancer during those four decades represent 3·2, 4·3, 6·1, and 8 per cent. of the total deaths from all causes other than those due to violence and accident. That is for the whole population. But the figures are very much more serious when we come to deal with the deaths in the same period among those of 35 years of age and upwards. In the years from 1881 to 1891 the percentage was 6·6, from 1891 to 1900 it was 8·5 per cent., from 1901 to 1910 it was 10·9 per cent., from 1911 to 1920 it was 12·4 per cent., and in 1921 it was 15·3 per cent. That means that in 40 years there has been an increase of 60 per cent, in all cases. When you only deal with cases other than those from accident and violence, you get 126 per cent, increase in 40 years, but when you come to deal with the people who live 35 years and upwards the increase is over 150 per cent. It is a very dreadful thing to think that in 40 years the deaths from this dreadful disease has increased by 150 per cent.
The allegation has been made by those who criticise that this increase is not entirely due to an actual increase of the disease, but is only an apparent increase. They say the reason why the disease is apparently more prevalent is that the doctors are better qualified to make diagnosis. Personally, I do not think that is the explanation at all. I question whether the doctor of the present day is as good a clinician as the doctor of 40 years ago. They are very much better for coping with disease and finding out what is wrong with people owing to the assistance of ancillary sciences, which come into operation usually after the patients are dead. [ Laughter .] I assure the Committee I am perfectly serious in what I say. Except when we have an opportunity of making postmortem examinations, I do not think the clinician of to-day is a whit better than the clinician of 40 years ago. When it comes to post-mortem examinations, of course, we are ahead of them. I do not want the Committee to think that I do not recognise the enormous strides which have ben made in the medical profession, and the enormous benefits it has conferred upon mankind as a result of increased knowledge and of the wonderful discoveries that have been made. I am speaking simply of the question of clinical diagnosis.
It is not necessary to labour the question of statistics any more. I think I have shown that they are sufficiently grave. I do not know if the Committee realise that, of the hon. Members sitting on this bench along here, at least three will have got the germs of this disease in their system now, and will die of cancer. That will bring home to hon. Members the very serious condition of affairs with regard to this disease. Everyone admits that it is a dreadful scourge, that there is a great deal of suffering connected with it, that it is a loathsome disease, and very often cuts off men and women from their life just when they are at their very best intellectually, and certainly when they are getting on after middle age, and have probably made for themselves a competence, which they will never get the opportunity of enjoying. It also cuts many parents off from their children, so that the children are deprived of the benefit of having their parents with them when they most need them. All these things are known to all. The great difficulty about this complaint is that we know about as much in regard to its cause as we did, say, 500 years ago. No progress has been made in ascertaining the cause of cancer. All sorts of theories and all sorts of ideas have been brought forward, examined, and abandoned. We know nothing about it, and we also know nothing, or very little, as regards its cure, outside the assistance of surgery.
It is impossible to find a cure for this disease unless, first of all, its cause is ascertained, and its cause cannot be ascertained without research. Therefore, in order to put an end, or attempt to put an end, to this dreadful affliction, it is necessary that cancer research should be supported in every way possible. In my opinion, in order that research may be efficient, it is necessary that it should have the support, supervision and sympathy of the Ministry of Health. At present it has very inadequate support. The total amount of money which the State contributes towards cancer research is £5,000 a year. In addition to that, the State allows the hospitals and those engaged in cancer research to use a certain amount of radium, which, I believe, is worth £70,000. I should think, however, that the purchase of radium, when the Government bought it, was a pretty good speculation. It is probably quite a good property, and is not wearing out, so that I do not know that in that way the State is doing very much towards cancer research. Moreover, I think the use of radium has got rather beyond the research stage, and is more of the nature of hospital treatment than research.
I think the Committee will agree with me that there is a great deal of danger in relying upon the generosity of the charitable or of the frightened, because sometimes, when people are frightened of disease, they give large sums of money to combat it, I think, however, it will be agreed that that is a precarious form of income at any time. It may fail one, and, at any rate, it entails an enormous amount of anxiety upon those engaged in research, which they know costs a great deal of money, if they know that they are dependent upon the precarious charity of the rich to supply them with the necessary funds. That is why the Imperial Cancer Research Fund is precarious, because it is dependent upon voluntary contributions from people who can afford to give. It is insufficient because, obviously, there is not enough money in this fund now, or they would not be talking about the Imperial Appeal which will be launched in a few weeks' time. It is admitted, also, that it is wanting in coordination and administration. Probably there is a good deal of overlapping. Its efforts are too diffused; it is not concentrated sufficiently. These, of course, are purely my own opinions, but they are my opinions. On account of these considerations, probably the results achieved from the amount of money spent will not be nearly as good as they might have been had there been more concentration and co-ordination.
Special appeals have been made to the Government to give more money for the carrying out of cancer research. We were asked for a large amount the other day for agriculture, and the money is to be found. Of course, in carrying out dancer research, the medical scientists cannot hold out any hope of getting dividends, but they can hold out very great hopes that the cause of this dreadful disease may be discovered, and that eventually a cure for it may be found. That end will never be attained in any other way. Consequently, I hope that influence will be brought to bear on the Ministry of Health to do everything in its power not only to procure money from the Treasury to help to finance cancer research more fully, but also to show more interest and sympathy in the work and those who are carrying it on. People may think that in making this appeal I am in a way asking for a fresh job for the medical profession, but I assure the Committee that, from a monetary point of view, research is a very poor thing. Most of the men who do the best work in the laboratories throughout the country do not get as good wages as are paid to a first rate chauffeur. That is not where the money goes. It goes in the expense of apparatus, and in costly experiments which have to be continued over long periods if they are to afford any opportunity of finding out what is being sought.
Another thing about this disease is, that it is not a class disease. There is nothing swagger, or the reverse, about this awful affliction. Duke and dustman, sweep and savant, all die of it alike, and in equal proportions, so that the provision of the necessary funds affects everyone, no matter what may be his rank in life or what position he may occupy. I think the Ministry of Health should be not only the mainspring but the master of any efforts made in this direction. I know that a great many people may not agree in that, but I think that, as the Ministry of Health has control over the prevention of disease in this country, that is the organisation which should look after these matters. A good many people might not agree with me, but I am certain that in order to get the best results it is necessary that the Ministry of Health should be a very large, powerful, and influential factor in the case. There are certain directions in which the Ministry of Health alone has the personnel and the means of finding out the necessary information. I refer, of course, to the medical officers of health and the Registrar-General's Department. Every avenue should be explored in trying to find out the cause of the disease, and one of the avenues is compulsory notification to the medical officers of health. One never knows, we are so ignorant on the subject, when one might come up against the reason or the cause of this dreadful disease. We have the whole world before us, and no possible avenue should be untraversed in seeking for the necessary knowledge.
At one time it was alleged that there were cancer houses, and that every family that went to live in a particular house became infected. In the same way it has been alleged that houses built on the estuaries of rivers are subject to the disease. In regard to the first case, of cancer houses, it appears to be disbelieved by the profession generally that that is the case. Certainly such cases occur, but not with sufficient frequency to make one believe that the disease is infectious. The last Royal Commission that sat on the subject came to one absolutely satisfactory decision, and that was that the disease is not infectious. But there is no reason why every effort should not be made to find out, through the Ministry of Health and so on, by means of compulsory notification, if necessary, so that no possible cause should be overlooked. I have drawn attention to the dreadful nature of the disease, to the real difficulties in regard to it, to the way it affects everyone, and to the fact that research in regard to it is not in a thoroughly satisfactory condition, and the time has come for the Minister of Health more or less to take charge of the situation, to see that it is thoroughly financed, and supplement its finance with the aid of the Treasury by such voluntary contributions as he is able to secure.
There is, at any rate, one thing that has been said in the Debate with which I entirely agree, and that is that the Ministry of Health is an overburdened Ministry, and because it is an overburdened Ministry it has been the custom in Debates on the Health Estimates for the Minister and his Under-Secretary to make as many as three speeches in the course of the evening. I may perhaps serve to tide over the dinner hour and answer some of the detailed points which have been made. I very much appreciate the speech which has just been made on a subject which, I think, is impressed very strongly on everyone who has anything to do with health at all. Whether I should go quite as far as my hon. and gallant Friend does, in apparently suggesting that a Government Department should almost organise and direct a great work of research of this kind, I am not sure, but that the Government must give adequate assistance to the work of cancer research is, I think, quite obvious. It is only a question how the money can best be expended. I do not propose to deal with the two questions of necessitous areas and the various points on National Health Insurance, but the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) does not need to impress on me or my right hon. Friend or anyone the lamentable situation in Sheffield. Indeed, my right hon. Friend has had the situation in that city very fully placed before him within the last few days, and the figures the hon. Member quoted are in my mind, but I do not think the question of necessitous areas, admittedly a difficult one, will be very far advanced by the attempt to draw an analogy between relief given, rightly or wrongly, to certain classes of property and relief given to certain areas. To anyone who knows anything about administration or taxation or political economy there is the widest gulf between those two propositions.
The relief which I used as an analogy is given, on the statement of the Minister of Health in introducing the Bill, to an industry. The position in Sheffield to-day is because of the plight of the predominating industry in that area, and therefore I do not think it is unfair to say we can draw an analogy between relief given to an industry and given to an area.
The proposition the hon. Member is advocating is not the relief of any particular industry throughout the country. To come to the question with which I propose to deal, various hon. Members have seemed to manifest a kind of dreadful apprehension that the Minister of Health, whatever might be his good intentions, was going to be prevented by some agency or another from carrying out those intentions. We had the Noble Lady the Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) imploring my right hon. Friend not to be frightened by the Treasury. We had the hon. Member for the Wansbeck Division (Mr. Warne) warning the Minister of Health against smashing maternity and child welfare and cutting down the grants. We had the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) giving a few more detailed figures. What is this fear? What does it arise from? Where is this alleged opposition to maternity and child welfare and other health work? Where is it to be found? I do not ask whether it is to be found in the Ministry of Health; I gather that hon. Members do not think so. But where is it to be found? Was it to be found in the Geddes. Committee Report? On the contrary. Is there anybody who desires to cut down? What sign is there that it is the policy of the Government? "Oh," said the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough, "but you have cut down already." He told us, for instance, that we are cutting down our tuberculosis work by £53,000.
And sanatoria.
I think the hon. Gentleman might have given the figures. They were, for last year, £1,540,000, and for this year £1,487,000. So that this £53,000 reduction is about 3 per cent. But does anybody think that, with the present fall in prices, administration should not fall by a good deal more than 3 per cent.? Surely it is perfectly obvious-that in a service where there is only a reduction of 3 per cent, it must mean that the cost of administration has gone down more than that, and that, therefore, the actual service has expanded. When we come to the maternity and child welfare figures, there is a reduction of £167,000, which represents a reduction of about 15 per cent. That, like all things here, is an estimate, and I believe that the costs of administration have gone down more than that. Therefore, as a matter of fact, this provides for expansion. But what I want to say quite emphatically is, that the Estimate which is here is for a service as efficient and as widespread as we had last year. It is meant to provide for no reduction of service whatever. I should like to say that, so as to reassure hon. Members, and I should like to remind them, if I may, that it is a very unsafe thing to measure the value of a service by the mere amount of money spent on it. There are such things as expensive and inefficient services, and there are such things as economic and efficient ones. The question is, Is there any sign that the service has in any way fallen off? I will confine myself to saying that no evidence has been produced in this Debate, except the statement in the speech of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, which really was, if I may say so, the most astonishing speech, especially as it appears to be more or less the official speech of the Labour party. He dealt with maternity and child welfare, and the instance he gave to show the falling off of that work was with regard to the distribution of milk. He said how terrible it was that children over one year of age were unable to get milk; instead of the distribution of milk, the Ministry insisted on meals.
It is no use giving meals to children under 12 months of age.
The Committee will be surprised to find that there is no foundation whatever for this statement as to the Ministry's action. The Circular under which the local authorities are now acting, as, I think, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley ought to know, is Circular 185, of the 31st March, 1921. The Circular referring to meals was a circular which long ago was withdrawn; it is not in force at all. The Circular of the 31st March, 1921, does provide something about age, but the age is three years, and not one year, and it provides in special cases for the age going up to five years. Really, I think that where we are dealing with things of such importance, where we are dealing with questions which do create public anxiety, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley might at least have been moderately accurate in his statement of fact. I think I have disposed sufficiently of that charge, which, of course, was repeated by other hon. Members, and I hope they will take note of the fact that there is no foundation for what the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley said, and that the Circular he actually read is no longer in force, but was abandoned ages ago. It contained proposals——
Does the Noble Lord know of a letter which the Ministry has sent to the medical officer of health, proposing to cut down our estimate for this service this year from £68 per thousand inhabitants to £7, and we have got six months to consider the question?
The hon. Member has interrupted me on a different point. Let me finish what I was about to say. The Circular read out by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley was a Circular containing a proposal which met with opposition from local authorities, and was dropped long ago. As regards the hon. Member's point that there is an attempt to cut down the provision by the Ministry, I wish to say this. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley appears to regard the whole public health service of the country as merely a battlefield across which the authorities of Poplar and the Ministry of Health fight a running battle. Much, indeed, nearly the whole, of his speech was an attempt to justify the authorities at Poplar. I do not want to reply to that. I do not want to say a word against the authorities' at Poplar. I do not want to stand here on behalf of the Ministry and claim credit for the reduction of infant mortality. In so far as the Minister of Health stands at this Box and claims some credit for the improvement of the health of the country, he does it, not representing one Department in Whitehall, but as representing a great organisation, comprising every local authority in the country, and the credit, of course, belongs to the local authority as much as to any part of the organisation. I do not want to enter into a controversy as to the administration of local authorities. I would only confine myself to this point. If Poplar desired to spend about £69 per thousand of its population on milk, when the average of local authorities in England is somewhere about £6, as, I believe is the fact—we are dealing with Estimates—I very seriously doubt whether that dis- tribution of milk had any proportionate effect. I notice, at any rate, that the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, while telling us he was about to prove that the local authorities, where labour was in power, were responsible for the whole of this improvement in infant mortality, did not adduce a title of evidence to show that infantile mortality was lower in those areas than in any other area.
We brought it down from 125 to 81 per thousand.
It has been brought down in other areas to 77. The question is whether the amount of expense on distribution of milk produced any proportionate effect. It is an administrative question about which we might argue for ever. I could not help being somewhat surprised by one remark of the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Warne) in regard to a pure milk supply. He implored us to be guided by the example of America and said that you must not look on the regular supply of milk as a profit-making concern. I do not know whether he thinks that milk supply in America is not run for profit. But hon. Members who do know about the American system will realise that there are certain features about that system, and in the national attitude towards milk supply in America, which do not exist in this country as yet. And I am surprised that no hon. Member who has spoken about milk has mentioned the report of another Committee, the Linlithgow Committee, but some hon. Members would be surprised if they knew what prices were paid for milk in America. A question was asked as to what had been done in reference to sterilised milk. I can give figures. About a hundred producers of milk have been licensed direct from the Ministry of Health. I cannot give exact statistics as to the number of licences issued for pasteurisation, but farmers are being stimulated in that direction by the legislation of the Department.
I do not want to detain the Committee any longer, but I want them particularly to be assured that there is no question of reducing the extent of the efficiency of the public health service. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley spoke a great deal about the subject of the future organisation of the Poor Law, and I should be out of order if I were to attempt to reply. But the hon. Member, curiously, seems to think that the reform of Poor Law proposed by the Royal Commission was to break up the Ministry of Health. The reform proposed was largely the breaking up of the guardians, and therefore I was surprised to hear the hon. Member say that we ought to put into force again the Unemployed Workmen's Act in order that more functions in regard to unemployment should be given to the guardians. Most of the hon. Member's speech seemed to be extolling the guardians. I do not think that a very helpful contribution to the Debate. Again, the hon. Member gave the Committee the idea that the Hollesley Bay Settlement had been closed through the action of the Ministry of Health. On the contrary it has been encouraged by the Ministry of Health, and is open. I cannot understand how these statements can be made by persons like hon. Members, who, presumably, are acquainted with the facts.
I do not know why you say that. I know nothing about the matter, but I drew a conclusion the very opposite to that which you drew from the remarks of my hon. Friend.
I do not understand the interruption of the hon. Member. I was not referring to him.
You said that the hon. Member for Bow made a statement which would induce people to believe that the colony had been done away with. I heard the statement of the hon. Member and came to the opposite conclusion, and I am convinced that everybody else who heard it came to the same conclusion as I did.
I am glad to hear that, but the speech of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley was an attack, not on my right hon. Friend or myself, but on the officials of the Ministry of Health for trying to prevent reform of the Poor Law and for frowning on such projects as the Hollesley Bay Settlement, and I see no foundation for such statement. The Hollesley Bay Settlement was reopened under the encouragnment of the Ministry of Health, and these attacks on permanent officials, apart from their constitutional undesirability, are without any foundation in fact.
I am sorry that the Noble Lord has made the statement which he has made in reference to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley with regard to the Hollesley Bay Settlement. I think that he will find, when he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, that he will get a view the contrary to that which he has taken now. As we know, the Hollesley Bay Settlement is still in being and doing very good work. I was on the Committee a short time ago, and I know personally the work that is going on. The Noble Lord did not listen with his usual care to the utterances of the hon. Member when he made such an accusation. I wish to put a point in reference to the statement made about the maternity and child welfare section of the Ministry of Labour. I admit that some of the reductions, at any rate in comparison with the drop in expenditure, etc., amount to no actual reduction in regard to what has been undertaken, but he has admitted that it was 15 per cent. in this particular section, and, after all, there would be something to be said in this case even if the expense were much greater. There has been a reduction in infantile mortality in Poplar from 125 per thousand to 81 per thousand, and that is worth spending a great deal of money upon. I did not gather that my hon. Friend was so much blaming the officials of the Ministry of Health—nor do any of us do that sort of thing regarding people who are helpless to defend themselves here—but rather was he criticising the system and the administration as we see it.
The Noble Lord said no evidence had been brought out of any reduction in the facilities and help given to maternity and child welfare work. I am not going to go into that subject generally, but I am going to draw the Noble Lord's attention to one particular case. I admit right away that the local authorities have their share in the blame, and what I am about to say is not so much in criticism of the Noble Lord's Department, as in the hope that his Department will deal with a particular board of guardians in regard to the case I propose to mention. It is the case of the scattered homes in the charge of the Camberwell Board of Guardians. They have so altered the arrangements there that the foster-mothers have now much longer hours. They are always to be on duty; they are not to act like people going to business, but like mothers, and are never to be free during the day, but always to be engaged in this work. Instead of one home each mother is given charge of two homes, and is to have charge of at least 24 children I imagine, even in an assembly like this, one does not need to demonstrate the difficulty of taking charge of 24 children of all ages, not merely for a few hours in a school, but at all hours of the day and night, and to care for them——
They do not take them to school.
If the hon. Member had given attention to me he would understand that I said quite the reverse to what he suggests. I said it was much more difficult to take charge of these children in this way, than to take charge of them in school. These mothers have charge at all times day and night, and some of us who know what it is to have two or three children in a home can imagine what it is like to have 24. This system has been condemned by Miss Walmsley, the inspector of the Ministry of Health, and I wish to bring to the Noble Lord's attention some items in the report of his own inspector in the hope that attention will be given to it and that some pressure may be brought to bear upon the guardians. This lady says that she noticed that no milk was given to the children to drink, and she then goes on to say:
"The hours of the foster mothers have been increased. They are allowed one day a week from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. and every third Sunday from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. There is a danger of the foster mothers becoming run down in health and irritable with the children if they have no liberty."
I hope the Noble Lord will note that. That is the only relief they get and they have to be on duty as I have pointed out at all hours of the day and night. Even the most saintly person will get a frayed temper if left in charge of 24 children in confined circumstances for such a long period. The lady inspector goes on to say:
"In the girls' and mixed homes, there is a considerable proportion of young children under seven and in some homes children not attending school. It is undesirable that children should be left for considerable lengths of time under the care of untrained girls, as they must be when each foster mother is responsible for 24 children."
I do not require to enlarge upon that, but it may interest the Noble Lord and the Committee to know that the comment of the chairman of the guardians upon this was, "This is the usual sort of letter from a maiden lady."
Am I to understand that the hon. Member's observations relate to homes managed by the Guardians?
9.0 P.M.
I think the Noble Lord will do me the justice to recall that I said to him that I was not quite sure how far his authority extended, but that I hoped it would be sufficient to bring pressure to bear upon these guardians in the face of the report of his own inspector. The fact that his own inspector has reported gives him some right of entrée in some way or other. The inspector goes on to say:
"The homes are not suitable for making a common dining room for the two houses, where there is only one mother on duty to serve 24 dinners. If this is left to the elder girls, the little ones may be insufficiently fed."
What is happening is that the mother having charge of so many is bound to leave the elder girls in charge, and that is bound to result in some disadvantage to the younger folk and imposes an unfair burden on the elder girls. The report proceeds:
"Twenty-four children in two houses are more than one mother can efficiently supervise and especially is this the case after school hours and when the children are in bed at night. Accidents might easily happen and the mother could not be held responsible if she were not in the particular house at the time. The elder girls working in very close quarters are apt to get into each other's way, gossip and get into mischief."
She concludes by saying,
"I noted that several of the older mothers were feeling the strain of many years' service. If they break down and apply for pensions the guardians will spend more than they will save on parting with the relief foster mothers."
That is the one point which I wish to make and as I have already emphasised I am bringing it to the attention of the Noble Lord in the hope that his Department will do something to prevent this sort of thing which is very retrograde—which goes back to a condition of things we thought we had long left behind—and it is just possible if it is allowed to go unchecked, that other guardians may follow this very bad example.
I ask the indulgence of the Committee on rising to make a maiden speech. I ask that indulgence with every confidence, because during the few months I have been here I have observed the almost considerate welcome and the encouragement which is given to men who, realising the great privilege they have in addressing the House of Commons for the first time, pass through what is perhaps the greatest ordeal of their lives. It seems rather a far cry from the subject which is being discussed to that upon which I wish to touch, but the Debate this afternoon has been very varied, and I offer no apology for jumping off, shall I say, from the subject we have just been considering to that which comes under the heading of grants in respect of unemployment schemes. I wish to bring before the Committee a matter which appears to me to be of very great urgency in the public interest, and I want to present my case in such a way as to command the support, and, I Hope, the respect, of all parties. I am convinced that the Government must formulate a big policy and a bold programme of road construction and improvement in order to relieve the difficulty and the problem of unemployment. It is quite true that the Ministry of Transport has undertaken some important works in this direction, and those of us who were present at the address delivered by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry in one of the Committee rooms, are greatly indebted to him for the illumination which he' shed upon the work and the details which he gave us as to what is going on.
I cannot but feel that the works of first-class importance undertaken by the Ministry are comparatively few and that they are only touching upon the fringe of a really great problem. Lord Montague's scheme for a motor road from London to Liverpool is typical, perhaps, of some of the great works to be undertaken, but there are many works of minor importance which need the attention of the Department at the present time. In the London area, there is a great need of roads affording direct communication between these great arterial trunk roads radiating from London as a centre. We want the Ministry literally to make rings round London. We want the Ministry to construct roads in order that one may be able to get from the Harrow Road, or the Edgware Road, to the Oxford Road, or the Bath Road, without going through a series of narrow, tortuous, high-hedged lanes as is the case at the present time. These are only examples which I have taken from the London area, because I feel that they will be more familiar to the Members of the Committee than many others that I could take. All these are instances of construction, but there are many instances of reconstruction which deserve the attention of the authorities. A few weeks ago I had occasion to travel by road to Cambridge, and I went by way of Elstree and Hatfield, and the whole of the distance, practically, between those two towns was composed of a road which one may describe as a two-car road, by which I mean that there was certainly not room for more than two cars to pass or to travel along the road side by side at the same time. I take it that that road is probably a main road, and I think it will be agreed that a road so important as that should certainly be not less than what I term a five-car road, or, perhaps, 50 or 60 feet between the fences. I have taken the London area for my examples, but I could quite well quote cases in my own Wrekin Division of Shropshire that I feel may not be so familiar to Members of the Committee as those that I have mentioned.
Why is it that this menace has become so obvious and apparently has sprung up with such quickness among us? I understand that a transport census recently taken shows that no less than 98 per cent, of the total traffic on the road to-day is motor traffic. Such traffic is much faster than the old horse traffic and much greater in volume, and in many cases the vehicles are much greater in size. I think, perhaps, that much of the heavy traffic which we see on the roads to-day arises from the fact that during the War, and immediately after, many traders adopted a system of road transport, because they found it much cheaper than using the railways at a time when the rates were so prohibitive, and that practice still obtains. Another contributory cause of the menace is the rapid and increasing growth of the population. At the present time there is an excess of births over deaths of something like 300,000 a year, and that is a very large contributory cause to the danger of the streets. How are we to make this problem, shall I say, helpful to the solution of unemployment? In my opinion, a survey of the whole country is needed. New roads must be formed, existing roads must be improved, widened, and straightened, and where this is not possible, new bye-pass roads will have to be formed.
The thought which will naturally spring to the minds of the Committee is, how is such a scheme to be financed? I think I can suggest a method whereby it will finance itself. I believe it was the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) who last March, in the debate on unemployment, suggested that large sums of money might be raised for this purpose. I submit that a sum might be raised by the issue of road bonds, somewhat on the lines of local loans. Such bonds should bear the State guarantee, and the service of those bonds should be taken from the proceeds of motor taxation—namely, the Road Fund. The fund should be administered by the Ministry of Transport, and the work should be undertaken by county and borough councils.
For that point to be in order on this Vote such a fund would have to be administered by the Ministry of Health. There is a provision in the Estimate for grants for unemployment by the Ministry of Health, and the hon. Member would be in order if he suggested that a grant should be made for the purpose, but road bonds issued by the Ministry of Transport obviously would have to come on a different Vote.
I ask your indulgence if I have transgressed the rules of Order, but I thought that, seeing that the work would be carried out by local authorities under the control of the Ministry of Health, namely, the county councils and the borough councils, I should have connected it with this Vote.
I think the hon. Member will be quite in order by developing his argument on the supposition that the grant was made out of the unemployment grant by the Ministry of Health. That, I think, would bring it in order.
I thank you, Sir. At all events, what I want to say is this, that assuming that a considerable capital sum can be raised, grants in aid of unemployment may be made to county councils and county boroughs by the Ministry concerned without any specific limitation as to the percentage of grant which may be made in respect of certain works. It is far better to pay something more than the dole which we are giving the men now and get the whole profit of their work than to pay the dole with its demoralising effect. I have recently had up from Newport a resolution passed by the urban district council there, begging the Government to carry out works of public utility instead of giving a dole which everyone wants to see stopped. I do not know exactly what the amount given is, but I do know that in my own district of Uxbridge the amount given by way of out relief, together with the unemployment benefit, is in the neighbourhood of, say, 30s. a week. One knows very well that on that sum no family can be adequately supported, and I ask the Government seriously to consider these proposals and to see whether a considerable capital sum can be raised in order that the very business which produces the revenue, namely, motor taxation, may be capitalised and made to pay in the proper way.
In that way, I sincerely hope that a considerable reduction in unemployment may be obtained. The British workman does not need the dole, he does not want to be pauperised, he does not want that kind of help. He wants to earn his living in the proper way, and let us see that we put him in a position to do it. In conclusion, I would just say this, that if we succeed in increasing the amount of employment in this country, and reducing the amount of unemployment, then we are helping men to retain that greatest of all possessions, their self-respect.
I wish to direct attention to certain matters in connection with the administration of the National Health Insurance Act. What I desire to say is from the experience of my own as president of an approved society working over a wide area, and which has, in the natural course of things, a good many difficulties of administration. In consequence of that experience I and those who work with me have arrived at certain conclusions which I desire to bring to the notice of the Minister of Health. In the first place I would refer to the suggestion that has been put forward as to the combination of the Unemployment Insurance and the National Health Insurance. We have given very careful consideration to this matter, and we are unanimously of the view that the two services cannot be usefully combined under one staff. The services are different in their character altogether, and their combination might raise precedence, and disagreement between one class and another. In the society with which I am associated we have a large number of people engaged in farming operations in the country districts. Then is little, or practically no, unemployment amongst them at the present time, and a contribution levied on these people would be diverted for the purpose of helping the people in the industrial areas who have no claim whatever upon them. Apart from that the difficulty of combining the operations of the two is manifest. They would require two separate staffs.
The second point upon which I should like to say a word is the question of the medical certificates. I agree with what has been said that the general body of the doctors have been admirable in carrying out their duties under the Act. Doubtless new duties of that kind were irksome to many of the medical men, but they have, in the main, regarded them as a duty placed upon them and, as I say, the general body undoubtedly, so far as our experience goes, have served us well and loyally. There are, however, a certain number—and this is deplored as well by the majority of the doctors as by the society—who do not recognise the obligations that rest upon them with regard to these certificates. It is on the certificates that the whole administration of Approved Societies rests. It is upon them that we form the judgment as to who is and who is not entitled to the benefits provided.
Our view is that a member who is entitled to benefit for sickness should be dealt with as generously as possible, because we know that that is why the scheme exists. On the other hand, one must be careful to see that the funds are not depleted by paying benefit to those not really entitled to it, and who, in some cases, are not sick at all. We have a minimum of what is generally known as malingering, but we have always been alive to the danger of something of that kind creeping in. I would, therefore, impress upon the Minister of Health the real importance, whatever arrangement is made with the doctors, to insure that when doctors do neglect their duty all the powers the Ministry possesses are enforced so as to bring it within the narrowest possible dimensions and so that the thing shall not spread.
The other question which I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister is that of the amount of the administration allowance. The administration allowance ought to be sufficient to permit the approved societies making a substantial contribution towards the superannuation fund of their workers. The staff is not usually a highly-paid staff, although probably fairly well paid, but in times like these their pay does not permit of their laying aside provision for old age, or making the contributions necessary on their own account, to provide a reasonable retiring provision when they are no longer fit for service. The time is coming when we shall have people who may have 20 or 30 years' service to their credit, and who are no longer fit for work, and in the general run of societies no provision has been made to help them in their old age. I think it is a duty on societies to make such contribution, and I believe that is the general feeling of all the societies. But it cannot be commenced unless the administration allowance is sufficient to make the contribution a half to the society and a half to the member, or whatever the proportion may be, so as to build up a fund which will deal with the people when they retire.
The subject we have been discussing to-day is one on which, on a number of points, we see, perhaps, almost unanimous agreement. Had it not been that the Minister made some reference to the question of vaccination, I do not know that I should have attempted to get the attention of the House. But as I come from the City of Leicester, I feel that I must say something on this question in the interests of my constituents. I do not know whether I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman, but the impression was certainly conveyed to me that the Ministry were at least considering the advisability of revising their policy. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the people of Leicester are as emphatic in their opposition to vaccination to-day as ever they were. If there be any departure from the present situation with a view to doing away with the privilege of exemption, and with the idea of making vaccination once again compulsory, then I can assure the Ministry that there will be united opposition. The Minister will discover that among his strongest opponents will be found some of the most ardent supporters of the Government as a whole. This question, in past years, has been looked upon as vital in our city of Leicester, and for many years it was the deciding factor in regard to the personnel of the board of guardians. We have long ago discarded vaccination, and we feel as safe as any city in the land. [An HON. MEMBER: "What of Gloucester?"] I did not know that Gloucester was an unvaccinated city. My impression is that Gloucester believes in vaccination to a much greater extent than does Leicester. We, in Leicester, have always "banked" on good sanitation. We have been ably led for 40 years by a man who believes first and last in sanitation as one of the great preventatives of disease. When other cities who believe in vaccination and not in sanitation have been visited by epidemics, we, in Leicester, have escaped. It is within the recollection of the Committee that, only two or three week ago, in answering a question, the Minister had to admit that in the last five years no single case had been notified in our city, and he also had to admit that we were a city where a large percentage were unvaccinated. We shall not be scared by anything that may have happened at Gloucester.
The Minister mentioned the question of hospitals, with this advice, that in his opinion he thought the time had come when the voluntary hospital authorities should use Poor Law infirmaries to a larger extent. He would come up against not only sentiment, but opposition. One of the things we are constantly coming up against is the fact that men and women, after paying for years a weekly contribution to the upkeep of our city hospital, resent the idea that they should be transferred from our hospital to the Poor Law infirmary. We have had an institution in Leicester for many years that has re- ceived a weekly contribution from perhaps 95 per cent, of the men and women working in our factories and mills. By agreement, the employer is allowed to deduct from the wages of the employés so much every week, and to a great extent our voluntary hospital has been enabled to carry on its work because of these contributions. Naturally, opposition arises when these individuals fall ill and are transferred, as is sometimes the case, from our general infirmary or hospital, to the Poor Law infirmary.
Regarding health insurance, as touched upon by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), I do not believe the medical profession has failed the community in the administration of the national health scheme. Personal friends of mine give largely of their best, not only to the private, but to the panel patients. We know, however, that there are some instances where the panel patient does not receive the service to which he is entitled. If the Minister can find means to bring about a better feeling between his Department and the medical profession, he will have done a great service to the working-class movement, who receive a great amount of their medical help through health insurance. The hon. Member for Blackpool (Major Molloy) seemed to think that some of us were trying to exact luxurious waiting rooms at the expense of the medical fraternity. We do not wish to occupy waiting rooms sufficiently long to mind whether or not they are upholstered, but we do want room enough to get our bodies into them. There are doctors with 2,000 or 3,000 patients on their panel who possess waiting rooms measuring about 9 feet by 7 feet. You see a queue of people having to line up in all weathers waiting for an opportunity to see the Doctor. With regard to the reductions which have been alluded to, I would like to remind the Minister of Health that already complaints are being made by those who will be affected, and I hope such reductions will be made without hurting the large body of men who, after all, do a good service by acting as the agents for the various approved societies. Some of them tell me that their jobs are fairly lean at the present time, and if they have to submit to any reduction they will hardly be worth troubling about.
I am sure we all appreciate what has been done along the line of research. As anyone who has served in a public capacity and has had any connection with sanitary committees will have discovered, there is a great need of constant attention in regard to one or two of the maladies which afflict mankind to-day. One of the most disquieting features with reference to cancer is that year by year it is catching up that awful scourge of tuberculosis. One thing which is troubling medical men and public servants is that at least in some cities the death rate from cancer is nearly if not quite equal to that of tuberculosis, so that research work is necessary. I hope the Minister will not try to make any further economies in regard to the beneficent work associated with his Department. I think economy might be practised in some other direction instead of reducing the expenditure of the Minister of Health, touching as it does the life of the citizen. I do not think we should ever respond to the call of economy if it means a reduction of the beneficent work of the Ministry of Health and the efficiency of that Department.
The hon. Member who has just sat down has assured the Committee that he believes in research work, but he does not believe in vaccination. I am not a medical authority myself, but I think all Research Authorities agree that vaccination is a very sure cure for small-pox. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If hon. Members opposite had seen small-pox at close quarters; if they had seen what happened at Buenos Ayres, where a thousand deaths a day occurred, or in Mexico, where they died from this disease too fast to be buried, they would be inclined to alter their views about vaccination.
What about their sanitation?
I want to ask what steps the right hon. Gentleman is taking in regard to the outbreak of small-pox in Gloucester, and how he proposes to safeguard the population of that town. The epidemic is rapidly spreading there; some of the cases are very bad indeed, although there appears to be some doubt amongst the doctors as to whether all the cases are small-pox. However much we may differ about the advantage or disadvantage of vaccination, we all agree that we should do all in our power, if we have small-pox in our midst, to stamp it out as quickly as possible, and to isolate the cases and get rid of the disease. We have had small pox in Gloucestershire since the beginning of the year, and I suggest to the Minister of Health that the county authorities are not doing their duty, and they are not taking adequate precautions to deal with this awful disease.
I put a question some time ago to the Minister of Health, asking him if he had any power to compel county medical officers to take proper steps and make adequate provision for handling cases of infectious disease, and I was astonished to hear that the Minister of Health had no power to enforce the taking of any such steps. This is a very serious thing, the authorities in Gloucestershire, are not taking adequate steps, and the Minister of Health has no power to make them. If that be the case, then we are in a very serious position, and this disease is bound to spread sooner or later all over the country.
I would like to give an illustration showing that they are not taking proper steps in Gloucester. I will give a case from my own village to show the apathetic way in which they are dealing with this awful disease. There is no excuse for the local authorities saying they have been taken by surprise, because on 5th March last the local medical men sent an official letter to the urban district council, the rural district council and the board of guardians which appeared in the local Press and was widely circulated, and in that letter they pointed out that they had very inadequate information as to what they should do in case of an epidemic of small-pox, and they asked, whom should they communicate with if small-pox appeared? They further pointed out that small-pox had been of very rare occurrence. People did not seem to realise the extreme gravity of an outbreak, and as a great number of people now decline vaccination it seems that we may expect a bad outbreak if it once starts. After that warning the Gloucester county authorities might have been expected to have done something. The authorities merely intimated, however, that there was a hospital at Tewkesbury to which the local doctors might send any cases of small-pox which came under treatment.
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I would like to ask him if the letter he has read did not emanate from meetings of medical men who belong to a certain organisation, and is it not also the fact that one, at any rate, of the local doctors entirely dispute the statements made in this letter?
I am really quoting from a letter which I first saw in the Gloucester Press, which was signed by two practitioners, medical practitioners, and which was addressed to the clerk of the Urban District Council, the Rural District Council, and the Board of Guardians. I am aware there is a doctor in Gloucester who is very much opposed to vaccination, and I propose to deal with him later on. I want to repeat that with this warning before them no steps were taken by the local authorities, except to inform the medical practitioners that there was a hospital at Tewkesbury to which they could send cases if they had any. A case appeared towards the end of April, nearly two months after the warning was sounded, and it was then discovered that the hospital at Tewkesbury was only half built, and was not ready to take in patients. After frantic telegraphing all over the county, the county medical officer began to make arrangements, and eventually did secure a hospital to which patients could be sent.
I would like the Committee to hear what were the arrangements made by this apathetic medical authority. We were promised an ambulance, and four hours after the case had been reported a vehicle, which very much resembled a London taxicab, arrived at the patient's house. It was not an ambulance. The authorities in Gloucester admit it was a Unic landaulette which, at a pinch, could take a man lying down. This vehicle was driven by a man who had not been vaccinated, and the local doctor insisted on his being vaccinated before he took the patient away. There appears to have been a good deal of doubt as to where the patient was to be taken. The driver did not know where ho was going, and the patient's wife, not unnaturally, objected strongly to handing over her husband to a strange chauffeur who had no official authority and did not know where he was going to take the patient. In the end the patient was taken away and long after midnight the driver was going through the streets of Gloucester asking all and sundry where he was to take the small-pox patient inside his car. I submit that that was a scandalous proceeding, and it is very little to be wondered at that small-pox has not been stamped out. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was it a public vehicle?"] It was a vehicle hired at a local garage; it was an ordinary hackney carriage which, I believe, has since been acquired by the county authority. I have been told that the garage proprietor refused to take the car back after he knew the use to which it had been put.
I believe that at the present time there are in Gloucester hundreds of case of small-pox; some are virulent, some are of a rather doubtful character, but the medical officers who were sent from Birmingham and London are convinced that every one is a case of small-pox. A statement has been issued to the Press, signed by 27 Gloucester medical men, to the effect that at a meeting held at the Guildhall on 13th June, 1923, it was agreed by the undersigned medical men practising in Gloucester that there were a large number of cases of small-pox, and they urged the citizens to support the local authorities in their effort to stamp out the outbreak. They strongly advised everyone in his own interest and in the public welfare to be vaccinated or revaccinated. That expresses the opinion of 27 medical men in Gloucester to-day. There was one doctor who held a contrary opinion, and I should like to quote from some remarks which he has made in the local Press. He states that the City of Gloucester has been visited by two medical men from the Ministry of Health who have called upon a large number of persons suffering from an eruption and have declared that the whole of these cases are cases of small-pox. The doctor goes on to say: That is a statement made by this doctor in the public Press. He is, I believe, a justice of peace, and I should like to ask the Minister of Health whether he cannot discuss with the Home Secretary the question as to whether this gentleman should remain on the Bench. I understand that Dr. Davison, of Birmingham, who was called in by the council, has been very much hindered in every way in his efforts to stamp out the outbreak. It was asserted that he was grossly insulted by members of the Gloucester Borough Council and resigned, but was afterwards persuaded to stay. I sympathise with the Minister of Health in the very difficult position with which he has to deal, but the surrounding districts and the inhabitants of the rest of this island have a right to be protected, and expect to be protected against small-pox, and I shall therefore be glad to hear what the Minister proposes to do in order to protect them.
I am sure the House has listened with great interest to the speech just delivered and, personally, I very much regret there was no sign in the speech of the Minister or of the Noble Lord the Parliamentary Secretary who intervened later which showed their realisation of the greatness of the problem the Department has to face. The Ministry should, as soon as possible, turn its mind to the great question of the coordination and codification of the public health services. The great obstacle to a good health service is the complexity, the confusion, and the overlapping of the numerous services that exist. I was struck by the Minister's statement, which almost led me to believe that in the short time that he has occupied his office he has not, perhaps, realised that the health services are in that state, for he said that the Poor Law infirmary came to the relief of the ordinary hospital. That word "relief" does not at all express the real attitude of the Poor Law infirmary in regard to the health of England. In London, indeed, the Poor Law infirmary has occupied a far greater position in regard to the sick poor even than the hospital itself. It has more beds; it attends to more sick, and has a great many more duties to perform. In the olden days, the Poor Law infirmary, I agree, was often the last home of those who were chronically ill, and of the aged and senile. The modern Poor Law infirmary is an up-to-date hospital; but it is handicapped in this way, that, whereas the voluntary hospital can refuse any person, the Poor Law infirmary must admit him. They have to accept patients treated by the general doctors, and out-patients treated by the hospitals. They have cases which are sometimes treated by the voluntary hospitals; they have tubercular cases, which ought to be treated in sanatoria; and they Have mental defectives, who ought to be generally treated by the London County Council.
There are a variety of cases, and if any of those particular organisations or bodies cannot see their way to treat them, they are all sent off to the infirmary, which has to receive everybody. The consequence is, that the infirmary is rapidly becoming a hospital; in fact, it provides more hospital treatment than any voluntary hospital which exists. In the Poor Law hospital with which I happen to be connected—I have been for 25 years a guardian—we have, in our operating theatre, 1,000 operations in the course of the year; we have the X-rays, and all kinds of ameliorative treatment. The attitude of the public, which is too often one of dislike to the Poor Law, should be removed, and the hospital and the Poor Law infirmary should be so co-ordinated that there should be no distinction between the two. If people were more logical, they would not have any objection to the Poor Law infirmary. As a matter of fact, the ordinary voluntary hospital is sustained by charity, and when you go there, you are receiving something from charity.
Will the hon. Member allow me to say that he is wrong there. The voluntary hospitals are not entirely kept up by charity, but very largely by the subscriptions of patients.
That may be so during the last few years.
It always has been so.
The Noble Lord will know that a very small portion of the cost comes from the patients dealt with at the voluntary hospitals. The only addition they have now got is a grant from the State, but every one who goes to the Poor Law institution has been paying towards it all his life. They go still further, because as a liable relative assist toward the upkeep of another relative there. Therefore, if there is any talk of self-respect, there is more in the infirmary than in the hospital. I am not saying that to disparage the hospitals, which have done a wonderful work, but it is time to remove this distinction between the two; and there should be no feeling of loss of self-respect, however illogical it may be, when one goes to the poor law infirmary.
10.0 P. M.
On the question of tubercular disease, I hope what Mr. Spahlinger and others have suggested will prove to be sufficient and effective. I have, like many others, listened to many so-called remedies, and it is pitiful and pathetic to know how many hopes have been raised, and then dashed to the ground. I therefore think it is too early to be optimistic about it. What is most needed at the moment is the prevention of contagion and infection. The only way in which we shall efficiently accomplish that is not by medicine but by somehow or other getting hold of the men when they are in the infectious stages, and getting them away from the children, who are liable to infection. I do not think hon. Members wish to deal with the question of housing, as it has been considered so very fully for many weeks, but we cannot separate it from the question of tubercular disease. The most provocative cause of tuberculosis are the two-roomed houses, in which people are herded together. One tubercular man in a room means tubercular children in the next generation. I would suggest that we should deal with things as they are, because very often, unless very great care is taken, the danger of infection is doubled or trebled in a home where there are only two rooms.
No doubt the great difficulty with a person in an illness, such as tuberculosis, is that he does not want to go to a sanatorium. In a sanatorium, though he would be prevented from spreading infection, he must go far away from his home, and the more a man feels his illness the less anxious he is, and quite naturally, to be separated from his family. The tendency therefore is for a man or a woman in the most dangerous state of the disease to try and remain in their own home. That is disastrous. What I suggest—and it meets with the approval of some medical men, and could be perfectly easily done—is the institution of small homes—not large institutions—which would hold about 20 people. They would be in the neighbourhood of the patients, who, knowing that they could see their relatives, who would be two or three miles away, every day if they liked—the good authorities say that the medical men would have no objection to this—would be perfectly willing to go there at once.
We have only had one reference tonight, and that from the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), to the part the Poor Law authorities have played during the severe time of unemployment. They have had a most difficult task, and one in which two years ago they received little assistance from the Ministry of Health, which ought to have helped them with their work. That task, as I say, has been a very difficult one. All those who tried to carry it out, honestly and sincerely, have met with abuse from somebody or other, and generally from all quarters. I say, without hesitation, that the Poor Law authorities were the only ones who stood between England and a revolution. The State itself could not and did not attempt to maintain the families, and if the Poor Law authorities had not done the work and endured a great deal of undeserved obliquy, there would have been a revolution. That is not an exaggeration. I am not a revolutionist, or given to exaggeration, but that is a definite fact, and the Poor Law guardians deserve more thanks from the State and more assistance from the Ministry than they have received in the past.
One of the greatest tasks to which any Minister of Health can put his hand is to produce a great, co-ordinated system of health services, to remove the difficulties and overlapping, which so much conduce to confusion and reduce the chance of putting in the hands of the people even those instruments that at present exist for restoring them to health. For these reasons I hope that the Minister, when he has a little more leisure, will get into touch with this question. It is one of the most pressing problems of recent years and it is still a pressing problem.
The debate has necessarily touched on a great variety of topics, and hon. Members with whom I am associated on this side of the House, have in the course of their speeches dealt with many questions in detail. I do not propose to follow them in that regard, but I rise briefly to offer a few general observations on what I think is the essential service of the Ministry of Health. The Minister may be excused for making to-day an inadequate statement regarding its general activities and the functions of his Department. The Minister has a miscellaneous office, he is responsible for multifarious duties covering such great questions as housing, the Poor Law, the welfare of the blind, local administration and general health questions. Industrious, and, if I may say so, able as the present Minister of Health is, I doubt whether he will find that his whole time can compass the great service demanded by so great an institution. The outstanding feature of the year under review is the policy of national economy, pursued by a Ministry which must spend more and more if it is to produce good results. This economy has meant either unwillingness on the part of the Minister of Health to press local authorities to carry out their statutory duties, or it has meant a deliberate policy of suppressing the activity of local authorities. Schemes on subjects of public health, which have been put on foot during the period under review, have come to an untimely end as the result of the general attitude of the Government. My right hon. Friend may, of course, say that this is a broad question of policy, for which he is not individually answerable as the head of the Ministry now under consideration.
The position of the blind, for instance, which is often presented to us in this House; the great humane consideration for those who labour under one of nature's most severe handicaps, should have been better than it now is. They are a small minority of the population. The State was pledged to give exceptional assistance to them, but great obstacles have been placed in their way, and many who expected adequate help have not received it, by an act of ommission on the part of the Minister to require all the local authorities responsible under the Blind Persons Act of 1920 fully to carry out and generously to administer their duties under that Act. Trade depression and the inadequacy of our unemployment insurance system has driven large numbers of people under the Poor Law authorities. The policy of the Ministry with regard to unemployed persons, and to the terms of their unemployment insurance, has been raised on several occasions by my hon. Friends on this side.
In short, I would say that the high hopes that were centred in the Ministry of Health when a few years ago it was created are far from being realised. I believe my right hon. Friend when he said that the improvement of public health was of the greatest importance to the nation. But this must remain a mere empty phrase until every channel of administration through which the Minister has to work is adequately provided with the financial resources to give full effect to this aspiration. The State can choose between leaving it alone and doing it thoroughly and well. The State has undertaken and has chosen to establish a Ministry of Health. All of us, of course, wish that the afflicted, the impoverished, the aggrieved could do more for themselves, but it is precisely because they cannot that the State was driven to establish this additional Department.
We are, always faced with the cry that these State activities cannot be undertaken without money. A reasonable question to add to that is, what does it cost not to do it, what does it cost to leave them alone? It was because of the cost, not in the financial sense, but in the sense of reduced efficiency and physique, that public opinion grew to the height of requiring Parliament to establish this Ministry. In short, we are struggling with a pernicious system which imposes very real limitations upon the Minister who, no doubt, if he was more free and more adequately supported with finance would do more than at present he is able to attempt. My right hon. Friend brought to the notice of the Committee the increasing incidence of cases that must be made the subject of institutional treatment. That inevitably involves money, and to what he has said I would add that very frequently economical ill-treatment raises and increases the need for this form of institutional treatment. Our conviction is that very often the State can save a great expense to the State, and that what may be saved at one moment in one direction is much more than covered by losses in- volved in another direction. We often have cases of misplaced national economy. When it is a choice between economy and stern natural necessity, economy should give way, and the needs of humanity should be met.
Let me take the instance given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He cited the cases where, for reasons of economy, children must not have milk, nor must their mothers. I am referring to the recent decision, which affects the Ministry of Health as it does other Departments, as the result of the policy of national economy which is being pursued. If economy involves cruelty, economy should give way. This Ministry has accepted these great State obligations, and the nation itself, as a matter of honour, should find the necessary finance for making them effective. I assert, therefore, that no economy which is inhuman, which involves cruelty as well as a loss to the country itself, should be practised by the Ministry of Health, above all Ministries in the State. I recall that my hon. Friend spoke of an economy which was expressed in these terms, that, in spite of the fact that there are seven days in the week, and that at least one meal per day would be required, only five meals were allowed for the week, with reduced supplies of milk, as I have already alleged. No Ministry of Health can function without full financial resources for its purpose. National niggardliness in relation to the duties imposed upon the right hon. Gentleman should be resented by any Minister at the head of such a Ministry as this.
I think the right hon. Gentleman was not here when I made a few remarks a little while ago, and pointed out that the Circular from which he has continued to quote is not in force, but was withdrawn long ago.
But what have you given in place of the meals that have been withdrawn? Is it true that a woman nursing a baby does not get the milk? Is it true that a child whose mother is nursing it does not get the milk, and that no child over 12 months gets milk?
No, it is not true in the least. The Circular which is in operation is Circular 185, which was issued as long ago as the 31st March, 1921, and, as regards nursing mothers, let me read the appropriate provision:
"Milk should be given to nursing mothers only where they are actually suckling their children."
But the baby does not get the milk at all.
Yes, it does get the milk. The Circular says:
"Milk may be supplied at less than cost price in necessitous cases to ( a ) nursing mothers; ( b ) expectant mothers in the last three months of pregnancy; ( c ) children up to three years of age; and, exceptionally, to children between three and five years of age."
But not to babies under 12 months.
Yes, to children up to three years of age, and a child under one year is a child up to three years of age.
That does not apply if it is being nursed by its mother.
My hon. Friend is, as a matter of day-by-day administrative service, so well acquainted with his subject that I listened to hear an answer to him from the Noble Lord in the course of his speech, but none was given, and, therefore, I thought I was entitled to press the points that were adduced in my hon. Friend's speech. I have said that in the main I should confine myself to some few general observations on the function of the Ministry, and the impossibility of its carrying out its high duties under the conditions of national economy which have imposed these limitations upon it. I want, however, in addition to those general observations, to touch upon one point of detail. There is the choice between prevention, as far as we can see to it, and cure, leaving aside for the moment any subject of prevention. The question of the cure has been touched upon by many speakers, and instances have been revealed which, I hope, will not escape the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, as to the enormous number of patients on the panel lists and the obvious impossibility of adequate individual attention and care being given by any doctor to such a number of patients as have been cited. I am the last to offer a word of criticism against men who are employed in such an essential and hard-working profession as the medical profession, a profession in respect of which, on the whole, the country has indeed cause to be proud, even though individually there are those who complain of their imitating the trade unions. That in itself, from this side of the House, should not be a cause of very serious quarrel with the medical profession. But, frankly, there is scarcely a doctor, I should say, who would assert that efficient and satisfactory individual attention can be given in cases such as those cited by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood). I would therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman can no speedy remedy be found by which there would be a more fair apportionment of the numbers as between doctors whose lists are too small and doctors whose lists already are too large. Or, again, can nothing be done by the State to enlist the services of that very large number of doctors who as yet have not undertaken any kind of professional duties under the Act? At least an appeal can be made to them to have regard to the State necessities, to those great human necessities which have been created and which form a part of that organised system of medical attention lying behind the Insurance Act. This Debate at least has revealed that Ministers will find insoluble problems which have their roots in extensive and undeserved poverty on the one side and expensive and in defensible luxuries upon the other. Fundamentals are underlying these difficulties. We cannot now go into them. I will only ask that the Minister so long as he keeps his high office shall do his best to grapple with the evils whish are inevitable until fundamental remedies are found.
Certainly I have no reason to complain of either the tone or the temper of the Debate. It has preserved throughout a high level, and very many valuable contributions have been made. Incidentally, it has served to reveal the tremendous range of subjects which come under the ægis of the Ministry of Health, and which have filled the right hon. Gentleman opposite with such gloomy prognostications as to the possibility of any improvement. I have received a number of compliments, for which I am exceedingly grateful to the givers, but which have somewhat embarrassed me, not so much because I thought them undeserved—we have some undeserved criticism, and therefore we can occasionally do with a little undeserved praise—but because I thought every compliment which I had received some day would be a stick with which to beat my back, and a measure of the extent to which I had fallen from, the high expectations formed of me now. Therefore, I only say that I claim nothing for myself, except some little local experience in matters of health, very long extended and very deep interest in all matters concerning that subject, and a very earnest desire that, while I am in my present office, I may make some contribution to the problems which lie in front of me.
I will endeavour to answer, to the best of my ability, some of the questions that have been put before me by various hon. Members, and I will begin with the subject which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), the subject of the system of Health Insurance, and the whole question, indeed, of the panel system. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), that the panel system, whatever may have been its defects and faults, has done a very valuable service, and has done much to raise the standard of medical attendance among the poorer classes of the people. I think it has come to stay. Of course, that does not mean that there is not much we can still do to improve it. As early as 1914, a good number of matters were noted at the Ministry of Health as subjects for further consideration, but, of course, the intervention of the War made it impossible to carry out any changes at that time, and it was not until 1920 that it was possible to begin in some measure to reorganise the service. Since 1920, much indeed has been done to strengthen the weak places, and to correct some of the faults which had been disclosed in the course of experience. What we have tried to arrive at was, first of all, what you may call a ubiquitous service, that is to say, that any insured person, in whatever part of the country he might be, might always be able to obtain the services of one of the practitioners attached to the panel, and that was secured by a system of remuneration which does not depend solely upon the payment of a fixed sum per person.
Another thing to which we have had our attention drawn, and which we have endeavoured to ensure, was to secure the patients against being charged for any services which were properly within the scope of the service. That is, obviously, a very important matter, because really upon that depends the proper carrying out of the undertakings which were entered into when the service was started. We have endeavoured to secure that there should be prompt medical attendance, and that the accommodation in the surgeries should be adequate and sufficient. That is one of the points which have been the subject of some criticism this afternoon, and I will only say that, while it is impossible, of course, to have all faults of that character corrected immediately, it is a matter which is still engaging the attention of the Ministry, and it is one of the matters which we hope substantially to improve in the course of the next year. One of the difficulties in the original arrangement was, that the power of visiting his fault upon a practitioner who had not given proper service was by removing him altogether from the roll. We have endeavoured to supplement that by a system of fines, because removal from the list altogether was in many cases too severe a penalty for the offence committed. This system of fines introduced by way of addition to that more drastic power enables us to correct and punish small faults in a way which sufficiently draws the attention of the practitioner to what is necessary, while at the same time it does not unduly penalise him. One other thing which we have been able to do is to have the appointment of regional medical officers throughout the country who can act as consultants. I believe that those officers will make a considerable improvement in the service.
A great deal has been said by various hon. Members about the excessive number of patients upon the lists of particular practitioners. I agree that such a number as 3,000 patients on the list of one doctor is altogether too large. It is true that the 3,000 are not all ill together, but at the same time I think that the liability for the welfare of so many people as that is more than ought to be imposed upon any single person. But I do desire that the Committee should not be under any misapprehension as to the extent to which these excessive lists actually exist, because out of all the doctors on the panel something like 85 per cent, have fewer than 2,000 patients, so that only a rather small proportion run into these very high figures. Hon. Members ought to bear that in mind, because two or three instances of this kind are apt to create the impression that the practice is more widespread than it is. That, again, is one of the questions which have been and still are under discussion.
As the Committee is aware the present arrangement for the remuneration of doctors comes to an end in December, 1923, and before we settle new terms with the doctors we have got to discuss with them a question which is one of considerable complication and difficulty—what are to be the arrangements of the service? We have had a certain amount of discussion on various subjects already. One subject is the limitation of the panel. Another, that there should be no private fees paid for services coming within the scope of the contract. Another is, greater freedom in the choice of doctors than at present, and one more, of considerable importance, is, that we should still be able to secure that proper records are kept of each case. It is very important that this should be done, so that there should be in existence some records of the medical history of the patient. And that also is valuable when the patient is changing his medical practitioner, When we have some agreement on various points, then we shall have to go into the question of remuneration, and I can give my hon. Friends the assurance that this matter will be discussed in the House sooner or later, very probably in the course of the Autumn Session, because I think it is most likely that further legislation will be necessary in order to put into operation the new arrangement to which we must come, and, in that case, there will be ample opportunity for hon. Members to go into the question.
My right hon. Friend made the suggestion that the time had come when there ought to be a full inquiry into the whole system of national health insurance. I rather doubt whether it would be wise to make any announcement on that point at present. The Committee will see there are a number of questions, some of which I have mentioned just now, which are really in urgent need of settlement, and it would be, I think, unfortunate if the announcement of the coming of any thorough, drastic inquiry into the whole system were to postpone the settlement of these various questions or delay the settlement coming into operation. It will be necessary, at some time or other, to have such an inquiry as my hon. Friend suggests, but having that object in view—to get a speedy settlement of these pressing questions—I do not think that time has yet arrived. The hon. Member for West Woolwich, and I think another hon. Member, raised the question of the new administration allowance. It is proposed that the administration allowance shall be reduced from 4s. 10d. to 4s. 5d. I do not think, so far as the larger societies are concerned, there is any doubt in their minds that it is quite possible to make the reduction without endangering the societies. The only question is whether, as my hon. Friend has suggested, the reduction is too great in the case of the smaller societies. I am happy to be able to assure him that, so far as the evidence at my disposal goes, there is no reason to think that the cost of administering the smaller societies is any greater than that of the larger societies. That is confirmed by the return which I have got of the first 50 societies with a membership of under 5,000 each, whose accounts have been audited, because they show that on the 31st December, 1921, the surpluses 5 were £7,283 and the deficiencies only £113. Taking the corresponding figures for 1922, the surpluses were £9,363 and the deficiencies £249. In 11 of these cases, the surplus carried forward actually exceeded the sum which would be appropriated under the Regulations in any one year; whilst the total surplus represents 3s. 2½d. per member, the deficiencies, which occurred in only three cases, amounted to not more than 9½d. I think these figures are very reassuring, and that my hon. Friend need not be in any anxiety as to the future prosperity much less the solvency of the smaller societies even when this reduction in the administration allowance has been carrid out.
I come to the points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea in a speech which was full of interest, and showed, although he is now removed to another place, that he still continues to take a deep interest in the work which he carried on with so much distinction. The first question he asked me was what was happening in regard to the Spahlinger treatment. I do not think my right hon. Friend was in the Committee when I made my earlier statement, and I may inform him that I understand the manufacture of the serum and vaccine was interrupted by financial considerations for some little time. I am told a movement is going on for the raising of a sum of money privately, which, if successful—as I have some reason to hope it may be—will finable Dr. Spahlinger to produce his remedies in sufficient quantities to be available for experiment, and that he will then send a supply of these materials over here, where they will be handed over to the Ministry, and it will then be possible to make a complete examination. I entirely associate myself with what my right hon. Friend said, that whilst the other process that I mentioned, that of Dr. Dreyer, as to which we have very much more complete information, is extremely encouraging in its results, so far as they have gone, we cannot afford, in a case of such seriousness as this, to neglect any kind of remedy which offers a reasonable chance of success, and, certainly, it is the policy of the Ministry to do everything we can to test out as thoroughly as possible any remedy submitted to us which may seem at all hopeful.
My right hon. Friend asked me about the new School of Hygiene, which has been rendered possible by the munificent gift of 2,000,000 dollars from the Rockefeller Institute. I am glad to say that things are going on pretty well in respect of that School of Hygiene. Plans have been prepared, and a site has been chosen near the university buildings, and is being taken over. My right hon. Friend is probably aware that the school will be affiliated to the University of London, but it will be governed by a governing body, for which a Charter of incorporation is to be sought, and in the meantime, before the Charter is obtained, work is being carried on by a transitional executive committee, with the concurrence of the Rockefeller Institute. That committee, of which I am ex officio chairman, is engaged in a number of things in connection with the school. It has to consider the possible amalgamation or co-operation with similar institutions, it will go on with the preparation of plans, it will probably begin the building actually of the institution itself, and, most important of all, it has to proceed with the appointment of a director. The whole success of the School of Hygiene and Preventive Medicine will probably depend upon the personality of the man whom we put at the head, and it is, therefore, a very responsible affair to find a man who has the requisite qualifications, which are not by any means common, and which are now engaging our attention. We are hoping that we may be able to make the appointment before very long.
Then my right hon. Friend asked about the recommendations of the Cobb Committee in connection with lunacy, and I may tell him, in regard to that, that a great number of practical and valuable recommendations were made by the Committee, and that the Board of Control early in the present year issued a circular to the various visiting committees throughout the country, in which they pointed out the value of these recommendations and urged them to carry them into practice. There are two lines of progress in connection with this subject, which are engaging my attention. One is the constitution of research. There is a great deal to be done in the way of research in connection with the various forms of mental disease, and I am glad to say that that is being taken up with considerable enthusiasm by a number of local authorities. I, myself, only a week or two ago, opened a new research laboratory in connection with one of these mental hospitals, and I am satisfied that in the future we have a good deal to hope for in connection with promising lines of research into the causes, which are often very obscure, of the different forms of mental disease. Then there is another line, namely, the dealing with incipient cases without certification. That was one of the things which the Cobb Committee went into, and hon. Members are probably aware that we have a Bill in another place, which will shortly be coming before this House, which attempts to make some progress in that direction.
I was asked several questions. In respect to the first, so far as the Royal Commission on London Government is concerned, I am not now a member of that Commission; I had to resign my position when I accepted office and have not been able to give that attention to the recommendations of the Commission which they will require. The whole subject is one of great complexity and difficulty, and not one upon which a hasty decision can be taken; but I hope, when I have got through some of the more immediate and pressing problems with which I am busy, that I shall be able to give an undivided attention to the matter and see whether anything can be done. So far as the Meston Committee on Block Grants is concerned, that Committee has not actually reported, but I believe they are on the point of reporting. Then, again, as to the Trevethin Committee, there are one or two rather difficult questions there, but I hope we may be able to do something to carry out the recommendations of that Committee.
May I just say a word about the grading of milk? The practice of the grading of milk was one which was originated by the milk traders themselves. The function of the Ministry has been to license and control the grading, and to endeavour, so far as possible, to see that milk sold under a Certain grade shall attain a certain standard, so that when people are buying milk that is graded and so labelled, they should actually get that for which they are paying. Under the Orders the Ministry itself only deals with two grades, that is certified milk and Grade A tuberculin tested milk, and they have licensed about 100 dealers. Of the other two grades of milk, Grades A and pasteurised milk, the licences are granted by the local authorities. I have not yet got any returns from the local authorities enabling me to give figures, but I am informed that a number of farmers are producing milk of the two kinds, and I have every reason to believe that the matter is in a satisfactory position.
The effect of the grading of milk is going to be that the milk for people who can afford to pay for it will be of a better quality, but it also means that they have to pay more for it. But I do not want the Committee to think that it is only the rich that are going to benefit by this fact of graded milk. It will mean the raising of the standard of milk production. I also believe that it will raise the opinion of people generally as to the value of good and pure milk, and that it really is taking the first step necessary in order to bring about what has been successfully done in America. The hon. Member for the Wansbeck Division (Mr. Warne) seemed to think that so long as milk was produced and distributed by private enterprise there was no hope for any improvement in the quality. I would remind him that the example of America—which he quoted—is an example of what can be done by private enterprise, and not by the municipality or the State. In America people are willing to pay higher prices for good milk, and unless we are also ready we shall not do the thing that they are able to do.
May I suggest the leaving out of State control and inspection of the source of supply?
That is a different thing. Control is what we are already introducing. That is a different thing from production and distribution. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) suggested that the Ministry was "cribbed, cabined and confined" by financial considerations, and there were other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), who contested the praise which I had bestowed on the activities of the Ministry, in various directions:. Reduction in expenditure does not necessarily mean reduction in service. We have been passing through a period when prices have been extremely high in all directions, and we have been able to effect very considerable economies and reductions in expenditure, because prices have fallen, but—and I thought I had made that clear—the services did not suffer. We have gone so far—in certain cases, where it appears to us that the local enthusiasm for economy is going too far-—as to suggest to the local authorities that, however much they might economise, there is one thing they must not do, and that is to cut down the services which are of such value to the nation. There is one other subject which I must touch upon, and which has been debated this afternoon—that is the question of necessitous areas. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough has put this question to me, "What are you going to do He knows very well, because he had the answer at Question Time yesterday, that this is not a matter for the decision of the Ministry of Health; it is one which involves wide issues of policy and it is one on which the Government as a whole have got to pronounce. I have informed him that it has not been possible, owing to pressure of other business, to take the Government's decision and considerations on this matter in the story whose wife had been ill a long time, who wished she would get well "or something." When he does get his answer, it may not be the answer he wished to hear, but I think he wishes to have an answer of some kind rather than no answer at all. I quite realise that this matter has been under consideration for a long time, and it is necessary, because there have been various suggestions as to the way in which the matter should be met, and these suggestions have been examined and criticised; but I can assure him and other hon. Members that I am as anxious as they are to have done with it one way or the other, and I hope something can be done. I think I have, as far as I can remember, answered, at any rate, the most important of the questions that have been put to me his afternoon. I would like to thank hon. Members for the attention they have given to what I have had to say, and I assure them that when the Departmental questions they have raised do come before me, I will give them my attention. I cannot give them all the attention I should like, but I am dealing with one thing at a time, and "Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." If I have the good fortune to remain in my present position for a sufficient period, I hope I shall be able to give my attention to the important subjects which have been raised in this Debate. I hope the Committee will now let us have the Vote.
As one who has almost exhausted his physical strength in trying to perform that difficult feat of "catching your eye," Mr. Chairman, I hope the Committee will pardon my intrusion for the two or three minutes which are still available. I wish to express my gratitude to the Minister for the brilliant manner in which he has dealt with the various aspects of public health under his Department. There are two essential problems to which we have not had a satisfactory reply and one of them is the suspension of the Tuberculosis Order of 1914 which on 6th August of that year was held in abeyance and we are advised will still continue in abeyance for a further two years. Under the Order dealing with the notification of tuberculosis in cattle, it would have been possible to suppress some of the great causes of tuberculosis in human beings. I think it is irrefutable that through not putting this Order into force 7,000 young lives have been sacrificed and over 20,000 children in the British Isles have been permanently crippled from that same fell disease. The Milk and Dairies Act of 1915, also for grounds of economy, has been suspended. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Mr. Warne) was inquiring whether the Government intended to give a passage to the other Measure, which is to revive that Bill. I should like to ask the Minister to tell us whether it is or is not the intention of the Government to take the necessary steps to revive the Milk and Dairy Act of 1915.
I cannot give the hon. Member an answer to that question at the moment.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Mines (Working Facilitied and Support) Bill [Lords]
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ,) considered.
11.0 P.M.
With regard to the Amendments on the Paper relating to this Bill, the two new Clauses are out of order. The first—( Power to grant the right to be vested in the Crown in certain cases )—is out of order, because it is incomplete without considerable Amendments to Clauses 3, 4, 5 and 9, and they are not on the Paper. The second—( Compensation for damage to property as the result of subsidence due to underground mining )—is beyond the scope of the Bill. It would seem rather to look like a whole Bill put into one Clause by a series of sub-sections, instead of Clauses.
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to grant right to work minerals which would otherwise be unworkable.)
(1) Where there is danger of minerals being left permanently unworked
( a ) by reason of the minerals being comprised in or lying under land which is or has been copyhold land, or land subject to a lease exception reserva-
(b) by reason of the minerals being owned in such small parcels that they cannot be properly or conveniently worked by themselves;
a right to work the minerals may be conferred in the manner and subject to the provisions hereinafter appearing on any person having an interest in them, or, in the case of minerals owned in small parcels, in minerals adjoining them, who is desirous of working them, either by himself or through his lessees.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1, b ) leave out the word "adjoining" ["in minerals adjoining them"], and insert instead thereof the words "adjacent to." [ Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox. ]
CLAUSE 3.—(Power to grant ancillary rights for facilitating the working of minerals.)
(1) Where any facility, right, or privilege is required in order that minerals may be properly and conveniently worked by the person entitled to work the same, and the proper and efficient working of the minerals is unduly hampered by the inability or failure of that person to obtain such right, facility, or privilege (hereinafter referred to as an ancillary right), such ancillary right may be conferred in the manner and subject to the provisions hereinafter appearing on the person having the right to work the minerals who is working or desirous of working them either by himself or through his lessees.
(2) In particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, such ancillary rights shall include—
(a) A right to let down the surface;
(b) A right of air-way, shaft-way, or surface or underground wayleave, or other right for the purpose of access to or conveyance of minerals or the ventilation or drainage of the mines;
(c) A right to use and occupy the surface for the erection of washeries, coke ovens, railways, by-product works, or brick making or other works, or of dwellings for persons employed in connection with the working of the minerals or with any such works as aforesaid;
( d ) A right to obtain a supply of water or other substances in connection with the working of minerals;
( e ) A right to dispose of water or other liquid matter obtained from mines or any by-product works.
(3) An ancillary right may be granted to a person to whom a right of working minerals is granted in pursuance of Section one of this Act at the time when such last-mentioned right is granted or at any subsequent time.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out paragraph ( a ).
We had a Debate on this in Committee and I do not propose to trouble the House, with any tedious repetition. We believe, however, that the right to let down the surface ought not to exist per se . There ought to be the most ample cause shown and the various interests referred to later on should be given ample notice before any such right is exercised, even when once granted I think that on the Second Reading of the Measure we indicated that damage might be done to many interests without any kind of notice or without any kind of remedy or compensation. While it is quite true that the matter was also ventilated in Committee, and the Bill came from Committee as we now see it, we did not hear, on the Committee stage, any special reasons why this particular right should be given statutory authority. Therefore, in order that the House may further hear the arguments for and against, I beg to move this Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The Bill gives very dangerous powers to landowners and colliery-owners with reference to letting down the surface. Many questions have been asked in this House, and great efforts have been made to get legislation passed to deal with this question of subsidence. This Bill proposes to give a statutory right to land-owners and colliery-proprietors to let down the surface. It says nothing whatever about taking precautionary measures to mitigate this evil. The method of mining to-day lends itself to a large increase in the death roll, through falls of the roof and the side, and it is very necessary, in a measure of this character, that every possible safeguard should be adopted.
At the present time, acres and acres of coal are taken from under our large towns and villages, but no effort whatever is made to stow or pack these vacant places. The result is that there is subsidence of a very serious and grave character. The sewage pipes, the gas mains, the gas reservoirs, and the water reservoirs are materially damaged in many of our mining towns because of the reckless mining that is going on at the present time. Therefore, I strongly object to a power of this character being given to an unlimited extent by this Bill, without any safeguards being provided. The health of the people is very much jeopardised by this method of mining, and in some of the colliery districts the houses have virtually been destroyed. The people living in those houses are in terror for months and months before the houses are finally closed. In this Bill power is given to the landowners, while every other interest is entirely overlooked. The landowner is to have a statutory right to do just what he likes with the minerals, irrespective of any consequences. I think it is a very serious blot upon this Bill that so much power should be given with reference to this matter.
Either I am under a misapprehension or my friends are under a misapprehension. I have not discovered any of the evils in this Bill that my hon. Friends have discovered. This Bill was intended to confer a right to get certain coal, and, in addition, it provides certain ancillary rights. From whom are those who are working the coal to get these ancillary rights? They are to get the right to work the coal, and they are to get the ancillary rights from the people who own the surface. These are the only people from whom they can get the rights. If the owner of these rights is of opinion that the necessary precautions are not to be taken, he can refuse to either give the rights or to sell the coal, and it gives the person desirous of securing the rights the opportunity of going to the Board of Trade and making out a prima facie case. If the Board of Trade are satisfied, they can send on the case to the Railway and Canal Commissioners, and the Commissioners can only settle on such conditions and terms as they think reasonable and right. I venture to think that if we were successful in excluding this paragraph to-night, we should be doing a great injury to the mining interest and the mining community, and I know no section that would suffer more than the working miner.
Let me give a case that happened not long ago in Yorkshire. A certain person, who had a freehold of small extent, refused to sell. There was no property, not a single house, on the whole freehold. He refused to sell the coal unless he could get an exorbitant price. What I want to remind my hon. Friends is that if he could get that exorbitant price we have to pay 83 per cent, of the charge which would be imposed. My hon. Friends know what it means to cut ground. It means a large expenditure and it cuts down wages. They cut down further and they get gob fires and they have to pay a higher price for the coal. Do my hon. Friends believe that any private owner should have the right of enforcing exorbitant prices upon colliery owners or anyone else when the coal ought to be reasonably worked out? So far as I am concerned I do not. I venture to think that the owner of ancillary rights and of minerals will be protected under the provisions of this Bill. I happen to have a small piece of ground myself, and a certain colliery company wanted to buy it. We have come to terms since I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill. It was unreasonable that I should stand in the way of the development of a colliery company by imposing ludicrous conditions and extortionate terms. If I did so I would not be only imposing a hardship on the owner himself; I would be imposing equally a hardship on the miner. I sincerely hope my friends will not go to a Division on this paragraph because, if they do, I shall go into the opposite lobby and Vote for its retention.
I also hope very much that hon. Members opposite will not press this Amendment to a Division, because I think they will find that they are doing considerable harm to the industry which many of them represent. It is obvious that no mining on any considerable scale can be carried on without some risk of letting down the surface, and when the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment said that this was a new right which was being given, without any precautionary measures, to an unlimited extent, without any safeguards, it made me wonder, in spite of the fact that he sat through the Committee stage, whether he had really read the Bill.
I have.
Then I would suggest that he should read Clause 6, which provides that the matter shall be referred to the Railway and Canal Commission. The Railway and Canal Commission is a body that we can respect, and in which we can have the greatest trust. It is a part of the High Court, and we may be perfectly certain that in its hands every interest will be absolutely fairly treated and safeguarded. Under Clause 6, before any right of this sort is granted, the Railway and Canal Commission have to be satisfied that it is in the national interest, and, if they are so satisfied, they have the power to grant the right on such terms and conditions as they may think fit. That, of course, includes the question of compensation and making good. Then, under Sub-section (4, a ), they have to consider the values of the minerals as compared with the value of the buildings or works on the surface, and, supposing that there are no buildings or works, they have, under paragraph ( b ) of the same Sub-section, to consider what the future use of the surface, may be, and the relative importance, in the national interest, of the support of the surface and the working of the minerals required for such support. If that does not complete the matter, then, finally, in Sub-section (5), it is provided that they shall have regard to all circumstances. Under these conditions, I submit to the House that every safeguard is provided, and ample care is taken that no interest shall suffer, and I, therefore, hope that the Amendment will not be pressed.
I am rather astonished that we should wait until a quarter past eleven to find these great discoveries which have been put before us by the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. G. Spencer). That the great injury of which he has told us would be inflicted upon the miners, if this Amendment is carried, is, indeed, a very great discovery, and something which many of hitherto have never seen. Let us assume for a moment that this Bill had never been introduced. What would have taken place in regard to the mining of coal in this country? The mining of coal would have gone on in the future just as it has gone on heretofore, and the miners would in no way have been penalised. Consequently, if this paragraph were deleted, there would be no difference at all.
The objection submitted from this side of the House is not with the idea of preventing the coal reserves of this country from being exploited for the benefit of the nation, but there is a definite and distinct objection to granting a statutory right to a few of the residents of this country without giving guarantees, on the other hand, to other residents whose number is much larger. It seems to me that we have a real reason for objecting to this statutory right, which hitherto did not prevail. We are aware, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, that letting down of the surface, where mining operations are going on, is absolutely inevitable, but what we think should follow this statutory right is that the people owning property, and particularly the local authorities, should have definite guarantees given to them at the same time, in statutory form, that they are going to be compensated for any losses that may accrue to them because of this statutory right.
One of the first things I saw to when I bought my bit of land was that they were to pay me compensation for subsidence, and every other owner who has any sense will do the same.
My hon Friend's contention does not hold good when it comes to the sphere of municipal work where land must be purchased on the terms laid down by the owners, and although my hon. Friend filled his purse in accepting the terms offered—I hope he made a good thing out of it—there are instances where the authorities are compelled to purchase land, and unless they have some such right as the subsequent Amendments would give they are compelled to accept the terms of the owner of the land. We have no objection to letting down the surface since we know it is inevitable, but we feel that when the statutory right is granted to the mineowners, who first of all have to treat with the royalty owners, who have done very well out of the mining industry for so long, a statutory right should be given to them that compensation is forthcoming for any damage done to any of their property. I do not know, Sir, whether it is your intention to permit the next Amendment to be moved.
Not on Clause 3 where it first stands on the Paper. I propose to call an Amendment on Clause 6, which I think is the proper place, almost in the same words.
In that case I shall content myself with merely re-stating the case as we see it. We recognise that the surface is bound to fall while coal mining operations are going on, but we feel that the cold, icy words ought not to be there without the inclusion of definite guarantees for land-owners of property above that they are going to be compensated when subsidence takes place and injury is done to their property. The Solicitor-General may argue that this right exists at the moment. If it exists there is no need for these words. If it exists and there is no need to talk about compensation, why has a Commission been set up to deal with the special case of compensation for subsidence? The words are unnecessary in the first instance. If it is desired to retain them in the Bill definite guarantees should be given to property owners that compensation will follow any damage done to their property.
May I say a few words in response to the points the hon. Member has put up to the effect that this is in the interest of the miners as much as anyone else? It is neither in the interest of the miners nor of the public. This Bill is introduced in the interest of the coal owners in order to help them to square their differences when they cannot square them themselves. Not only that, but the Clause, which is the kernel of the Bill, practically gives these people the legal right to let down the surface regardless of what becomes of the property of a good many-people above the surface. The right hon. Gentleman cannot avoid the fact. We are continually getting letters from all areas in the country from people who are bound down. A right hon. Gentleman below the gangway put the position that these people who had their own houses had entered into a contract and were bound to accept the responsibility of it. At the same time the are people who are bound legally now coming to this House to ask for a Clause of this kind, while others are not to be compensated.
If the right hon. Member will refer to Clause 6, he will see that that is all provided for.
What this Bill does is to accept the status quo , to accept things practically as they are, only squaring the difference with the coal-owners, and I hope hon. Members on this side, knowing what they do about the hard-working people who, in some cases, have put all their life's savings into a house, which has been ruined without the slightest hope of compensation—I hope that, in spite of my hon. Friend, Labour Members and Members in other parts of the House who have any regard for working-people will not allow this to pass without registering their opposition. It is not a question of party politics. Everybody in this House, on whatever side he sits, cannot help having a very high regard for people who have been trying practically all their lives to get a house, and, having got one, they see it ruined, without having been consulted at all. Then we are told they were legally bound. They worked in the district and had to live in the district, and obtained the only legal arrangements they could get. Now we come along and coolly say that because some gentlemen are allowing them the privilege of working coal over their land, therefore we have to pass a Clause like this. I wonder why the working people whose houses are undermined were not taken into consultation upon this matter. I hope this House, apart from any party views, and in the interests of some of the most deserving and hard-working sections in this country, both now and in the future, will refuse to pass this paragraph.
I would not have risen to speak on this question tonight had it not been for the fact that we have been referred to Clause 6 by the Minister in charge of the Bill. I would ask him also to refer to Clause 8, which gives definite compensation to any person interested in the minerals in the land. Compensation has to be granted to one section of the community simply because they hold interest in minerals in the land. Why, then, should compensation not be given to people owning property on the surface of the land? As has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), these houses are being continually pulled down. Property standing on the surface of mining areas is being damaged day by day, causing tremendous expense, not only to the owners of property, but to the local authorities who have, in many cases, thousands of pounds of ratepayers' money invested in municipal services. There are some collieries which are worked in a way that causes greater risk of the surface falling in. We know it is impossible to prevent land shrinkage, but we can ask the colliery owners and managers to do all that they possibly can to safeguard the interests of all people concerned, and not simply the interests of one or two people.
Would not that subject come better on the Amendment by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on Clause 6?
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 85.
Division No. 255.] AYES. [11.31 p.m. Alnsworth, Captain Charles Gould, James C. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Philipson, Mabel Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W. Gretton, Colonel John Plelou, D. P. Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Balfour, George (Hampstead) Halstead, Major D. Raine, W. Barnston, Major Harry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rankin, Captain James Stuart Becker, Harry Harvey, Major S. E. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hawke, John Anthony Rees, Sir Beddoe Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Remer, J. R. Brass, Captain W. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rhodes, Lieut-Col. J. P. Brassey, Sir Leonard Hiley, Sir Ernest Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Bruford, R. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W) Buckingham, Sir H. Hood, Sir Joseph Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hopkins, John W. W. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Butt, Sir Alfred Houfton, John Plowright Roundell, Colonel R. F. Cadogan, Major Edward Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hudson, Capt. A Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hughes, Collingwood Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Churchman, Sir Arthur Hume, G. H. Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Clayton, G. C. Hurd, Percy A. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Cobb, Sir Cyril Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jarrett, G. W. S. Shepperson, E. W. Calvin. Brig.-General Richard Beale Jephcott, A. R. Shipwright, Captain D. Cope, Major William Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A. Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.) Singleton, J. E. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, south) Craig, Captain C. C (Antrim. South) King, Captain Henry Douglas Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Curzon, Captain Viscount Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Davles, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lort-Williams, J. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Dawson, Sir Philip Lougher, L. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Dixon, C. H. (Rutland) Lynn, R. J. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Doyle, N. Grattan Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Edmondson, Major A. J. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Ednam, Viscount Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Ellis, R. G. Mercer, Colonel H. Thorpe, Captain John Henry England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Wallace, Captain E. Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Molloy, Major L. G. S. Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Wells, S. R. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Murchison, C. K. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Fawkes, Major F. H. Nail, Major Joseph Wheler, Col. Granville C. H Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Nesbitt, Robert C. Whitla, Sir William Flanagan, W. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Windsor-CIive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ford, Patrick Johnston Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Winterton, Earl Forestier-Walker, L. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Wise, Frederick Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot Nicholson. William G. (Petersfleld) Wolmer, Viscount Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Furness, G. J. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Galbraith, J. F. W. Paget, T. G. Ganzoni, Sir John Parker, Owen (Kettering) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Garland, C. S. Penny, Frederick George Goff, Sir R. Park Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Bonwick, A. Charleton, H. C. Adams, D. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davies. Rhys John (Westhoughton, Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Broad, F. A. Dudgeon, Major C. R. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Buckle, J. Duncan, C. Ammon, Charles George Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Ede, James Chuter Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Edmonds, G. Batey, Joseph Chapple, W. A. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Fairbairn, R. R. Lawson, John James Simpson, J. Hope Falconer, J. Leach, W. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Gosling, Harry Lee, F. Snell, Harry Gray, Frank (Oxford) M'Entee, V. L. Sullivan, J. Greenall, T. McLaren, Andrew Tout, W. J. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) March, S. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Warne, G. H. Groves, T. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Welsh, J. C. Grundy, T. W. Murnin, H. Westwood, J. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Murray, John (Leeds, West) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Hardie, George D. O'Grady, Captain James Whiteley, W. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Herrlotts, J. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Hill, A. Phillipps, Vivian Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Hinds, John Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Hirst, G. H. Potts, John S. Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Pringle, W. M. R. Wright, W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton; Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Ritson, J. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Saklatvala, S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Lunn and Mr. John Robertson.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. John Robertson. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Salter, Dr. A. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Sexton, James Lansbury, George Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
CLAUSE 5.—(Applications for rights.)
(1) Any person having an interest in any minerals who is desirous of working, either by himself or through a lessee, those minerals, or any adjoining minerals, and who considers that the circumstances are such that a right to work the minerals can be granted under this Part of this Act, may send to the Board of Trade an application for the grant of such a right.
Amendment made; In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "adjoining" ["or any adjoining minerals"], and insert instead thereof the word "adjacent."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox. ]
CLAUSE 6.—(References to Railway and Canal Commission.)
(1) Where a matter is so referred to the Commission, the Commission, if satisfied that the requirements of this Part of this Act are complied with in the case of the applicant, and that it is expedient in the national interest that the right applied for should be granted to him, may, by order, grant the right on such terms and subject to such conditions, and for such period as the Commission may think fit, and upon such an order being made, the right specified in the order shall, subject to the provisions hereinafter contained, vest in the applicant.
I beg to move in Sub-section (1), after the word "conditions" ["subject to such conditions"], to insert the words, anomalies which arise from the private ownership of land and minerals, and with all the good points in the Bill hon. Members of these benches readily agree. After having examined the contents of the Bill very closely indeed, and remembering all that was said by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in charge of the Bill and the Solicitor-General, it still seems to me to be a Bill exclusively for the purpose of surmounting little difficulties that have arisen in the past from time to time between the royalty owner and the mine owner. We readily agree that, in many instances, benefits will be derived from the Bill, but we feel that definite guarantees should be given to all who are in any way interested by owning property, works, or anything else on the surface. Certain safeguards have been inserted in regard to the particular owner of the royalty, and in certain instances the owner of works actually existing or works to be, but there is no definite guarantee that all the people owning property on the surface are to be notified when royalty rights are granted under the terms of this Bill, and we feel that everybody who owns property on the surface where mineral rights are granted should be notified before actual working operations begin.
With regard to the latter portion of the Clause, although the Solicitor-General said very distinctly in Committee that certain compensation rights exist at the moment, and he referred to the two cases of Butterknowle v . Bishop Auckland Colliery and Howley Park v . London and North-Western Railway, we still fail to discover a definite statement inside this Bill that compensation will be paid to the owners of property when subsidence takes place. Clause 6 has been referred to on many occasions, but in it the value of the coal as compared with the value of the buildings above will largely determine the decision of the Railway and Canal Commission, and it seems to me that, after the national interest has been considered, the decision invariably will be based, neither upon the cost of the coal nor upon the damage done to property on the surface, but upon the cost of leaving a pillar of coal, with the necessary packing and all the other things that have to be done; and unless safeguards are inserted similar to those embodied in my Amendment, the chances are that people will continue to suffer in the future just as they have suffered in the past.
Clause 8 also deals very lengthily with the question of what may be done where subsidence takes place, but here again there is no definite statement of what compensation is going to be paid, except the compensation that undoubtedly will be paid to the owner of the minerals. Clause 9 was referred to, but here again we find nothing absolutely definite that is going to satisfy surface owners of property. Sub-section (2) of Clause 9 refers to the grantor and grantees, but no definite reference is made to the owners of property on the surface, and I want to suggest that, although a further reference was made to Clause 11, where no right can be granted under this Bill except a right that could be granted by the owner of the minerals at the present moment, that does not solve the question of compensation. It is true to say that a Commission has been set up, and we hope the Commission will solve the problem once and for all, but having given so many statutory rights to the royalty owner to sell inside the limits of those rights, we ought also to give guarantees to owners of property on the surface, as set out in this Amendment. A question was put to the hon. and gallant Gentleman a few weeks ago, and he, in reply, stated that a million and a half of money had been given in 10 years to the relatives of the killed and to the injured in the mines of the country, whilst in the same period £60,000,000 had been spent in royalties. Consequently we feel that it is not too much to ask that this proviso should be embodied in the Bill, giving, as it were, fair play all round, facilitating the working of the mines and doing no injury to any individual. Because we feel as we do, I beg to move the Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I should like to protest strongly against a Measure of this importance being brought into the House at this late hour of the night. We are now talking against railway and tram tables, and are thus placed at a tremendous disadvantage. Really I do not understand why the Government have rushed this Bill, upon the House. There is a Royal Commission sitting, or going to sit, to deal with the whole of the question. Our Amendment should commend itself to the reasonable judgment of the House. I defy the Minister to find out any word in the Bill that talks about "reasonable precautions" being taken. As a matter of fact, the mines to-day are being worked in the most unscientific and reckless way, and whole communities are being ruined through the action of the mineowners. It is reasonable to ask the House to see, in the interests of the safety of the miner, that reasonable precautions are taken against subsidence. Again and again the miners' inspectors have reported in favour of stowing and packing underground, but their advice has been entirely disregarded, and the surface let down unnecessarily. It is said that it is inevitable that the surface must be let down. Yes, but there are two ways of doing it—one by letting it down gradually, and properly stowing and packing, and the other by the reckless sending of rubbish to the surface, and allowing the whole thing to collapse. "Adequate notice shall be given to owners of property on the surface." This affects local authorities, for they have many thousands of pounds of property on the surface, and it is continually being destroyed by the recklessness to which I have referred. The compensation suggestion is a very reasonable thing. Why should a statutory right be given to a company or an individual recklessly to undermine a town or a row of houses, or any other property, and be under no obligation to pay compensation? Why did the hon. and gallant Gentleman bring in this Bill to anticipate the decision of the Royal Commission. I hope, myself, that the House will see the reasonableness of it and that they will vote for this Amendment.
Before the Minister replies, I should like to put several questions. I have had a letter from a private individual who has had property repaired, but it is partly on the barrier. The other case is a public institution that cost to build about £50,000 prior to the War. It was split as a result of underground working. Three parishes have contributed money for repairs but it is likely to be brought down. What is the position of these two cases? Are they to get adequate compensation to make good the damage that is likely to be done?
As most Members of this House are aware, I am a miners' representative, but I desire to say that I do not wish to speak in that respect to-night at all. I want hon. Members to think of me as having something to do with safeguarding public property—as a Member of an Education Authority and of a County Council, I have had over 20 years' experience of this mining as Chairman of a Committee which had to take into consideration all the school buildings. At least half the county is mined and almost everybody residing in the county is subject to mining subsidence. We as representatives of the ratepayers of the County of Durham had to pay enormous sums in repairing schools. We are, of course, bound to put a school where the children are, and we cannot see what some people would consider to be a safe place, for such a place would be outside the radius possible for children, and consequently we are driven to a certain spot. Not only have we to pay the damage, but we are asked to pay very exorbitant prices for land on which to erect a school. I have in my mind now the erection of a school on a piece of ground the owners of which were the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who charged us no less than £12 an acre for the land.
That is the sort of thing that it going on all the while, and there are worse cases in other districts. Go anywhere you like in the County of Durham and you will find this kind of thing going on. You might be riding in a motor car at night, and you might run into a hole seven feet deep caused by a subsidence. All this kind of thing is against the interests of the general public. I think the public have a right to look to this House for redress in these matters Whole villages have been affected, and the people who have built property to meet the needs of the community have had to suffer in consequence of these subsidences, and they are not compensated. In common justice, before a. Bill of this kind is passed, the interests of the general public should be secured. I hope that the Amendment will be carried.
Nobody who is familiar with the mining industry will underrate the importance of the question of subsidence. A Royal Commission has been appointed to inquire into the whole question relating to subsidences and to make such recommendations as may be necessary to safeguard the rights and interests not only of those who have vested rights in property, but of the other persons who are interested in maintaining the unbroken surface of the land. This Bill does not purport to deal with that wide question. Let me now come to what the Bill does try to deal with. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment said that this Bill appeared to be one for surmounting the difficulties being met with in connection with the working of the coal, and that is quite an accurate description of the object of this Bill. It is intended to surmount the difficulties which people interested in the working of the coal such as owners, lessees, and miners have met with. Some of these difficulties arise because it is very difficult sometimes to find the right persons with whom to enter into negotiation to obtain the necessary terms to work the coal under the surface. Other difficulties arise because a large number of people own the surface and the minerals, and the number of persons interested makes it almost impossible to negotiate the proper terms of a number of mining leases.
12 M.
Difficulties arise because it is almost impossible to find the people who have the proper legal ability, that is to say, they are under legal disabilities in disposing of whatever right they have. Other difficulties arise because the owners of those rights have possibly left the country and their whereabouts are difficult to trace. In order to dispose of those difficulties, not' merely in the interests of those who want to work the coal, but in order to protect the interests of those who want support for the surface, I would ask hon. Members to notice that this Bill provides that application may be made through the Board of Trade to the Railway and Canal Commission in order that that Commission may, under proper safeguards, make such grants of rights as the owners could have made if they were under no legal disability, or if they could be found, or if they were not asking for unreasonable terms'. I should have thought that hon. Members opposite would have recognised that provision in this Bill which accords very much with the general principles they advocate in dealing with this matter. The overriding and dominating consideration which the Railway and Canal Commission have to observe is the national interest. It is not simply the interests of a particular royalty owner or lessee they have to consider, but they have to give consideration solely to the national interest in deciding whether it is necessary or proper for them to allow a particular seam of coal to be worked, or in dealing with the matters with which Clause 8 deals they have to consider whether it is desirable that they shall give rights, which the owner does not at present possess, to have the support of the surface. Those rights may be given subject to such conditions as the Railway and Canal Commission think fit to impose. I should have thought that was strictly in accordance with the views of hon. Members opposite. At the present time, assuming that you can get hold of the owner of the rights, he may make such terms as he likes, but in future the Railway and Canal Commission will make the conditions.
If I may refer to the case which the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. R. Richardson) mentioned, where an exorbitant price was demanded for a piece of ground on which to build a school, I would remind the hon. Member that under Clause 4 of the Bill it is precisely in such a case as that, where the owner of the surface demands an exorbitant price for the right he is asked to part with, that the Railway and Canal Commission can say what shall be the price, and they can lay down the conditions under which he must part with his property. When hon. Members consider how carefully everything is hedged round with the fullest safeguards to everybody concerned, including the right to compensation under the much referred to Clause 6, I think they will realise that this Bill really is not such a dreadful piece of legislation as they seem to think. I would like to say in conclusion that the words which hon. Members are proposing to add to Clause 6 will have just the opposite effect to what they intend. The Bill provides that the Commission
We intend that the Railway and Canal Commission shall be given the widest possible powers to grant these rights, subject to all such conditions as they think fit, but having regard always to what is the national interest. I hope that hon. Members will realise that if once they have agreed to let the Royal Commission report on the whole question of subsidence, this Bill deals with a very small part of the subject, and is merely intended to facilitate, what is in the interests of everybody, the easier and cheaper working of coal.
In the ordinary way I should have accepted exactly what has been said by the hon. and learned Solicitor-General, but I notice that in Clause 3 this question of subsidence is specially mentioned as one of the things that is to be included in the sale. Having specially mentioned that this is part of the right that is going to be given, surely it is also necessary that it should be specially mentioned that compensation should he given. I am not referring to the compensation to the local authorities, to the large land owners, or to the rich men, who probably have lawyers to look after their business, but there are thousands and thousands of cottages where miners themselves live, and these owners are not even to be given notice that the ground underneath is to be dug away. That is the point of this Amendment. They ought to be told what is happening underneath their houses. Surely that is only fair, and there can be no objection. When you have already stated, as a special point in the Bill, that subsidence is to be one of the things to be included in the compulsory sale and purchase, it is only fair that a poor man, who has a small cottage or house on the surface, shall not only have notice and be told that he may suffer, but that he should have compensation. It is only fair that this point should be put to the Railway and Canal Commission, as it is a special point in the Bill. It is true there is a Royal Commission sitting, but that does not cover this Bill, under which special powers are given, and we ought to see to it that the small man, who has property on the surface, is protected.
The hon. and learned Solicitor-General has constantly referred us to Clauses 6, 7, 8 and 9, as giving us, in a greater or lesser degree, the particular conditions we are asking for in this Amendment. I should be the very last to decry the statement made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, but even he will admit that the qualifications in the Clauses to which he has referred are so many that it is almost impossible for the small property owner or the local authority to obtain satisfaction under any of those Clauses. The Amendment which we are pressing speaks very particularly as to the conditions, including the degree of the precaution to be taken in regard to subsidence. I should have thought the Government would have said, "Yes, that, after all, is only commonsense." The very least condition that ought to be conceded is be taken. As a matter of fact, in all collieries that are efficiently conducted, the conditions which are desirable are perfectly well known. A very large number of collieries are preventing subsidence. When we are really giving a new right, which may be said to be an ancillary right, subsidiary to a particular right held by some other person, it is surely only equitable that the owners of property who may be injuriously affected should have some attention paid to them. I am not going to enumerate the cases at all.
Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House know perfectly well that there are hundreds of square miles in this country that have been tremendously depreciated. The property of the local authorities has been almost irretrievably damaged; the local property owners have been penalised time and again. The Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) represented for a good many years part of the same division that I represent myself. Be knows perfectly well that I am speaking not one word of exaggeration when I say that in one particular area, the township of Macclesfield, tens of thousands of pounds of damage has been caused to property owners, to the local authority, and to the railway companies. I would not be putting it too high if I said that it amounted to £100,000. It is a small township of 20,000 or 23,000 population. It spent on baths £6,000 or £7,000. Within a very short time the whole thing was mined. No notice was taken, not the slightest reparation was paid. Houses have been pulled about the ears of the tenants and the property owners, many of whom, in the words of the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Law-son), I think, have spent their life savings on house property, have had their property irretrievably damaged. In some cases, where they have had to reconstruct their property, no sooner has the reconstruction been completed but it has been pulled about about their ears. This Amendment is asking in positive terms that adequate notice should be given to owners of property on the surface, of the intentions of mineowners. The intentions of the mineowners are known months and months before. There will not be the slightest difficulty. The methods of mitigating the effects of subsidences are perfectly well known, and that compensation should be paid to pro- perty owners whose property is damaged everybody agrees in principle. The amount of such compensation would be determined by the Railway and Canal Commissioners. In asking for that in
positive, set terms we are not asking too much, and I hope the House will see their way to concede this Amendment.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 153.
Division No. 256.] AYES. [12.15 a.m. Adams, D. Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Ponsonby, Arthur Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Herriotts, J. Potts, John S. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hill, A. Pringle, W. M. R. Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Bonwick, A. Jarrett, G. W. S. Ritson, J. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Saklatvala, S. Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sexton, James Buckle, J. Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon) Shaw, Thomas (Preston) Burgess, S. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Snell, Harry Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Chapple, W. A. Lansbury, George Sullivan, J. Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Tout, W. J. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leach, W. Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Dudgeon, Major C. R. Lee, F. Warne, G. H. Duncan, C. Lunn, William Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. Ede, James Chuter Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Westwood, J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) M'Entee, V. L. Whiteley, W. Fairbairn, R. R. McLaren, Andrew Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Falconer, J. March, S. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Gosling, Harry Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Gray, Frank (Oxford) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wright, W. Greenall, T. Murnin, H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) O'Grady, Captain James Grundy, T. W. Paling, W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. John Robertson and Mr. Tom Williams.—Mr. John Robertson and Mr. Tom Williams. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Hardie, George D. Phillipps, Vivian
NOES. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Forestier-Walker, L. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Mercer, Colonel H. Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) Fremantle. Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Furness, G. J. Molloy, Major L. G. S. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Galbraith, J. F. W. Murchison, C. K. Barnston, Major Harry Ganzoni, Sir John Nall, Major Joseph Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Garland, C. S. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Goff, Sir R. Park Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Brass, Captain W. Gould, James C. Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Brassey, Sir Leonard Greenwood, William (Stockport) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gretton, Colonel John O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bruford, R. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Paget, T. G. Buckingham, Sir H. Halstead, Major D. Parker, Owen (Kettering) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Frederick George Butt, Sir Alfred Harvey, Major S. E. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Cadogan, Major Edward Hawke, John Anthony Pielou, D. P. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hiley, Sir Ernest Raine, W. Churchman, Sir Arthur Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Clayton, G. C. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rees, Sir Beddoe Cobb, Sir Cyril Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remer, J. R. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hood, Sir Joseph Rhodes, Lieut-Col. J. P. Cope, Major William Hopkins, John W. W. Richardson, Lt -Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Houfton, John Plowrlght Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Robertson. Despencer, Major (Islgtn,W) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hudson, Capt. A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Hume, G. H. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jephcott, A. R. Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Dawson, Sir Philip Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Doyle, N. Grattan Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Edmondson, Major A. J. Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. Ednam, Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas Sanderson, Sir Frank B. Ellis, R. G. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) England, Lieut.-Colonel A. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Shepperson, E. W. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Shipwright, Captain D. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P. Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A. Fawkes, Major F. H. Lort-Williams, J. Singleton, J. E. Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. Lougher, L. Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Flanagan, W. H. Lynn, R. J. Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Ford, Patrick Johnston Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Winterton Earl Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. Wallace, Captain E. Wise, Frederick Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington) Wolmer, Viscount Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. Wells, S. R. Yerburgh, R. D. T. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Weston, Colonel John Wakefield Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Whitla, Sir William Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Thorpe, Captain John Henry
CLAUSE 7.—(Provisions where several applications in respect of the same rights.)
(1) Where separate applications are made by two or more persons for the right to work the same minerals and are referred to the Commission, the Commission, in addition to the matters aforesaid, shall determine which, if any, of the applicants is to be preferred, or whether the right to work one part of the minerals should be granted to one applicant and the right to work another part should be granted to another applicant; and in arriving at their determination the Commission shall have regard to the question as to how the minerals can be most conveniently worked, to the respective rights of the applicants in the surface or adjoining minerals, and generally to all the circumstances of the case.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "adjoining" ["surface or adjoining minerals"], and insert instead thereof the word "adjacent."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox. ]
CLAUSE 15.—(Amendment of 8 & 9 Vict. c. 20. Sections 78 to 85 as incorporated in future Acts.)
The Railways Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, as incorporated in any Act, order, or other instrument relating to a railway company passed or made after the passing of this Act, shall, except as otherwise expressly provided in that Act order or instrument, have effect as if for Sections seventy-eight to eighty-five thereof, inclusive, the following provisions were substituted, and as if the First, Second and Third Schedules to this Act were inserted in that Act as the First, Second and Third Schedules thereto.
CLAUSE 78A.—(Compensation for leaving minerals unworked.)
(1) The compensation payable by the company to the mine owner and the royalty owner respectively for the loss caused by the specified minerals being left unworked shall, in default of agreement, be determined by arbitration:
Provided that so far as such compensation is payable in respect of the value of specified minerals—
(iii) the compensation payable to the royalty owner shall be based on the amount which would have been received from time to time by way of royalty in respect of the specified minerals if they had been worked out in the ordinary course, and the royalties payable had been—
Amendment made: In substituted Clause 78A, Sub-section (1, iii, b ), after the word "reserved" ["one-third of the royalties so reserved"], insert the words "and payable."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox. ]
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed with Amendments.
East India Loans [Railways and Irrigation]
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient to authorise the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise in Great Britain, on the security of the revenues of India, by the creation and issue of capital stock, bonds, debentures, or bills—
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Earl Winterton, Major Boyd-Carpenter, and Mr. Solicitor-General.
East India Loans Bill,
"to empower the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise money in Great Britain for the service of the Government of India," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 180.]
Sittings of Parliament
Resolved,
"That it is expedient that a Select Committee of this House be appointed to join with a Committee of the Lords to consider the desirability of altering the customary period of the Parliamentary Session and the incidental changes necessary thereto."—[ Colonel Gibbs. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed .
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening , Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order .
Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.