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Commons Chamber

Volume 171: debated on Monday 17 March 1924

House of Commons

Monday, March 17, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the. Chair.

Private Business

CITY OF LONDON (VARIQUS POWERS) BILL (By Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

I do not know whether hon. Members are objecting in regard to the points I have raised. If so, I may say that the City of London have completely met all the objections which Labour Members raised, and, as far as I am concerned, I am quite agreeable to the Second Reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed.

PRIVATE BILLS (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with).

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

London and North Eastern Railway Bill.

Bill committed.

PRIVATE BILLS.

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in respect of the following Bill, introduced pursuant to the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, the Standing Orders applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Grampian Electricity Supply Bill (Substituted Bill).

Post Office (London) Railway Bill

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th day of March, That, in the case of the following Bill, the Standing Orders, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Post Office (London) Railway Bill.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with).

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.

Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.

Chatham and District Light Railways Company Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Salt Tax

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether there is any evidence in his possession indicating that serious hardship has been caused by the operation of the Salt Tax, or that it has led to agitation on the part of any large section of the population?

All taxation, I suppose, involves hardship in some degree. But my right hon. Friend knows that in the case of the Indian Salt Tax it is difficult to distinguish between economic and political considerations.

Has the hon. Gentleman any evidence that serious hardship was caused by this tax; and can he say whether the agitation came from any large body of opinion?

Before the hon. Member answers that question, may I ask whether he is aware of the fact that the Legislative Assembly rejected this tax the day before yesterday?

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this was an agitation confined only to politicians?

Malabar Operations (General Service Medal)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any decision has been arrived at relative to the grant of the Indian General Service Medal to the 2nd battalion of the Dorset Regiment and to other troops who took part in the Malabar operations?

His Majesty the King has approved the grant of the Indian General Service Medal with clasp, Malabar, 1921–22, to the military forces who took part in the Malabar operations

Financial Measures,

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what steps the Government of India proposes to take in the Central Provinces where the Central Provinces Council have totally rejected the Budget Vote; and what steps do they propose to take in view of the Legislative Assembly's refusal at Delhi to sanction the Customs establishment, the Income Tax grant, the salt grant, and the opium grant?

As regards part one of the question, the Governor of the Central Provinces has taken action, under Section 72D of the Government of India Act, to restore all the Budget expenditure that, in his opinion, falls within his powers under that Section. As the Governor has been advised that he has no power to restore the salaries of Ministers, both Ministers have resigned. The Governor will now assume charge of their portfolios under the Transferred Subjects (Temporary Administration) Rules. As regards part two, I am afraid I cannot attempt to anticipate any decision which may have to be taken when all the demands for grants have been dealt with in the Assembly. The hon. and gallant Member will no doubt recognise that the natural place for the announcement of the decision will be the Legislative Assembly itself.

May the House take it that the Government will support strongly the Viceroy in any measures which he may take?

Afghanistan (Armaments)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any information about a consignment of machine guns, rifles, and ammunition for the Amir of Afghanistan that has been held up in Bombay; what country has been furnishing these arms; whether this conflicts with any condition agreed to by members of the League of Nations; and under what authority and for what reasons have these consignments been detained?

A consignment of munitions, purchased by the Afghan Government from a French firm, has been detained at Bombay since October last, His Majesty's Government having decided, in accordance with the terms of Article VI of the Anglo-Afghan Treaty and letter No. 1 thereto attached, to withhold for the present permission for transit. A completely satisfactory settlement of the questions that gave cause for this decision has, unfortunately, not yet been attained, but it is hoped that it may be possible to release the arms at an early date. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative.

Anglo-Indians

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the Government of India has reduced the grants made to the Kalimpong Homes and other educational institutions for Anglo-Indians in India; and what are the reasons for these reductions?

My Noble Friend the Secretary of State has received no official information on the subject, but he is making inquiries.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that large numbers of Anglo-Indians have been dismissed from employment on Indian railways during the last 18 months; if so, what are the reasons for this action; whether he is aware that many Anglo-Indian ex-railway servants are now unemployed in Calcutta; what steps are being taken to relieve that unemployment; whether any application has been made to the Government of India for grants of land for settlement of Anglo-Indians; and what is the policy of that Government in the matter?

I understand that, owing to the need for retrenchment on the Indian railways, reductions of staff have been made, involving, no doubt, the discharge of Anglo-Indians as well as of others. I also learn from the Press that an influential committee of European business men and officials has issued an appeal for funds for relieving distress among Anglo-Indians in Calcutta. An Anglo-Indian colonisation scheme to the Andamans has also recently been initiated as a private enterprise. The Chief Commissioner has done all in his power to encourage it.

May we take it that these Anglo-Indians are not being dismissed in order to make places for pure Indians, in view of the fact that the Anglo-Indians are born and bred in the country?

As a matter of fact, more Indians than Anglo-Indians have been dismissed.

Bombay Mills (Wages Dispute)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can state the wages paid to adult men and women workers in the Bombay cotton mills during the 12 months preceding August, 1914, and the year ending 31st December, 1923, and the wages proposed to be paid to the same class of workers during the current year; and will he state the difference in the cost of living and the depreciation in value of the rupee as between the year ending August, 1914, and the present time?

With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

Figures answering exactly to the periods referred to in my hon. Friend's question are not available. The director of the Bombay Labour Office conducted an inquiry into the comparative pre-War and post-War earnings of the mill workers which showed that, in Bombay (City and Island), the monthly earnings per head of men were, in round figures, 35 rupees in May, 1921, as against 18 rupees in May, 1914 (percentage increase of 90 per cent.), and of women 17 rupees as against 10 rupees in May, 1924 (increase of 73 per cent.): these figures exclude overtime pay, annual bonus, remuneration in the form of food or clothing below market price and cheap housing, where this obtains. As regards the difference in the cost of living (which is, of course, an indication of the change in the purchasing power of the rupee), the Bombay Labour Office reports the average percentage increase in the cost of living of the working classes in Bombay over July, 1914, to be 58 per cent. in January, 1924. The percentage increase is subject to seasonal variations; the figure for July, 1923, was 53 per cent.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India whether the lock-out of Bombay cotton operatives is ended; if not, what steps the authorities are taking to bring about a settlement; what number of these operatives have left Bombay and how many have died of starvation; and is the Government or municipality doing anything to relieve distress caused by the lock-out?

The mills were reopened on 18th February, but the strikers did not resume work. I understand that on the initiative of the Government of Bombay a special committee of inquiry into the dispute was set up. I have DO official information as to the number of operatives leaving Bombay and none as to any deaths from starvation. My noble Friend has telegraphed to the Government of India for further information as to the course of the dispute, and is also inquiring as to the measures taken to relieve the distress caused by the strike. Steps to pay the wages due for January are in progress.

asked the Under Secretary of State for India who are the owners of the Bombay cotton mills from which the workers have been locked out; how much British capital, if any, is invested in those mills, and are any persons of British origin shareholders, directors, or managers of those mills; and whether trade unions are recognised as legal organisations by the Government of India?

I have not the material for a reply to the first two parts of the question. As already stated, the mills were reopened on 18th February. As regards the last part of the question, the Government of India have accepted the principle of freedom of association and are contemplating legislation for the recognition and protection of trade unions.

Will the hon. Gentleman get the information for which I asked in the early part of the question?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 80 per cent. of the mills affected are owned by natives and that the other 20 per cent. are managed by natives?

Is it a fact that the brother of the late hon. Member for North Battersea, Mr. Saklatvala, is largely interested?

Indian Subjects (Colonies and Protectorates)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the committee appointed by the Government of India to confer with him on questions concerning Indians in Colonies and Protectorates will meet; and what are the exact terms of reference of this committee?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The committee will meet in London about the beginning of next month. The terms of reference so far issued are to make representations to the Secretary of State for the Colonies on all questions affecting Indians domiciled in Kenya arising out of the decisions embodied in the White Paper (Cmd. 1922) and on certain pending questions affecting Indians in Fiji. I should like to take this opportunity of stating that my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Hope Simpson) has agreed to act as chairman of the committee.

How is it that the terms of reference to the committee have been narrowed to Kenya and Fiji, when the whole object of the committee was to examine how Indians were treated throughout the Colonial Empire?

Will this committee take into consideration the question of the resumption of Indian emigration to the Colonies for the purposes of labour?

Questions

S.S. "Sierra Leone."

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the Danish steamer "Sierra Leone" entered the harbour of Port Louis, Mauritius, on the 19th February, 1923, in contravention of quarantine regulations; and what action was taken by the Colonial Government?

I have no information, but I will make inquiries.

Nauru (Chinese Labourers' Wages)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the average amount of wages paid per week to the Chinese coolies working on Nauru Island; and whether the wages are paid partly in cash and partly in kind?

The hon. Member will see from the agreements in the Library that the Chinese employés on Nauru are provided with free food on a specified scale, free quarters and medical attendance, and that coolies and boatmen also receive clothing. I am informed that the cash wages of coolies and boatmen, apart from overtime, are from 32s. to 75s. a month, averaging last September 42s. 5d., in addition to bonus from 4s. to 20s. a month in certain cases. Mechanics' cash wages are from 70s. to 200s. a month, averaging last September 120s. 6d. Overtime rates are as stated in the agreements.

Who represents the interests of the labourer in settling the question of rations?

I explained to the House last week that this is a question for which Australia is responsible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman differentiate between the statement he has just made and the rates of pay for Rand miners in 1904?

I will differentiate if my hon. Friend will tell me what the difference is.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us of what the free grant of clothing consists?

No, but I can make inquiries. This is a matter for which the Australian Government are responsible.

Palestine (Rutenburg Concession)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if Mr. Rutenburg has yet received the promised money in order to carry out the conditions of his concession?

Under the terms of the original agreement, dated the 21st September, 1921, the Palestine Government undertook to grant a concession to a company to be formed by Mr. Rutenburg, provided that the company was formed within two years with a capital of £1,000,000, of which not less than £200,000 should be paid up. The late Government satisfied themselves last year that this condition had been fulfilled.

I have already said that the late Government satisfied themselves that all the conditions had been complied with.

Ellis Island (Second-Class Passengers)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the new regulations that have been issued by the American Government with regard to the landing of all second-class alien passengers at Ellis Island instead of at the piers as heretofore, and with regard to the examination of first-class passengers only before 7.30 in the evening; and whether friendly representations are being made to the Government of the United States of America on these matters?

I have received a report from His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington. The information is rather long for inclusion in the answer to a Parliamentary question, but, as the matter is one of public interest, I have given instructions to issue a notice to the Press. No representations appear to be called for on the part of His Majesty's Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is no greater hardship involved now to British passengers going to America than there was recently?

Is it not the fact that the liners reach the piers in New York in ample time for examination before 7.30, and that, therefore, the first part of the question does not hold good, and that second-class passengers have not to go through Ellis Island?

My conclusion is that no representations appear to be called for on the part of His Majesty's Government.

American Consulate, Newcastle-On-Tyne

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken to re-open the American Consulate at Newcastle-on Tyne; and if these measures have been successful in removing the deadlock?

I have not received the replies to enable me to make any further statement in regard to this matter.

What progress has been made with these negotiations? I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Adjournment at an early date.

Russia

British Consular Officers

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information to give the House on the question of the appointment of British consular officers in the principal cities, ports, and commercial centres of Russia and Siberia?

I am awaiting a reply from the Soviet Union Government on this question, and until it arrives I am not in a position to add to the information which was given to the hon. and gallant Member in answer to his question on the 13th February.

British Subjects (Status)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British subjects in Russia are afforded rights and privileges fully equal to those enjoyed by Russian subjects in this country?

Bishops and Priests (Imprisonment)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action it is proposed to take with regard to the communication from the Pope appealing to him to use his influence with the Soviet Government to obtain the release of Mgr. Cieplak, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Petrograd, and 12 other church dignitaries who are in prison in Russia?

asked the Prime Minister what action he has taken with reference to the request from the Pope to transmit an appeal to the Russian Soviet Government to release the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Petrograd, as well as other bishops and priests who have been incarcerated in unknown prisons in Russia?

Although it is not a matter in which His Majesty's Government can intervene officially, any suitable opportunity that may occur of making friendly and unofficial representations to the Soviet Government on the subject will be taken.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that several of these unfortunate men are very ill, and can scarcely survive for any long time in present conditions?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are some Englishmen imprisoned in America and that no representations have been made in their cases?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the large number of other Christian people imprisoned in Russia, and is it not desirable that the House should have some information on this point?

Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the gesture of the hon. Member for South Kensington?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are Irishmen imprisoned in this country?

Cotton Crop (Sudan)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government has already sent to the British residency at Cairo, to be transmitted to the Sudan Government, a question suggesting that all cotton grown in the Gezereh district should in the first place be offered to British buyers; if so, whether this suggestion has yet been transmitted from Cairo to the Sudan; and, if not, will he at once cable to Cairo withdrawing the suggestion, in view of the danger to Lancashire involved in setting up a precedent which might be followed by other cotton-producing countries?

The reply to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative, and the last part, therefore, does not arise. In making the inquiries, in consequence of the recent Debate in this House, His Majesty's Government had in mind nothing more than the importance of ensuring that every aspect of this cotton-growing scheme had been thoroughly considered.

China

International Labour Convention

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the British Government proposes to take in ex-territorial districts in China under British control to support the request of the Chinese Government that the international labour conventions should be applied in territories under non-Chinese sovereignty?

Boxer Indemnity (Scholarships)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the arrangements for the commutation of the Boxer Indemnity, provision will be made for scholarships for Chinese students tenable at approved colleges in China as well as at Hong Kong University; and whether, in order that the best use may be made of any scholarships tenable in Great Britain, the latter will be confined as a general rule to postgraduate students?

These and similar questions will have to be considered by the Committee which will be appointed to advise on the utilisation of the indemnity funds. This can be done only after the necessary legislation has been passed.

There are several rather important things that have to be straightened out before we produce that legislation. It is now in hand, but it is impossible for me to say when it will be ready.

British Investors

asked the Prime Minister what action the Government proposes to take with reference to British investors in China?

I regret that I do not understand the point or purpose of this question.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the speech made last Monday by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour?

Peace Treaties

Treaty of Lausanne

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can yet state when an opportunity will be given for a discussion of the Treaty of Lausanne?

I regret that I cannot at present, owing to the pressure of financial business, add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Stafford on the 3rd instant.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a state of grave anxiety exists in regard to this matter among our friends in Turkey?

That is present to my mind, and I am hurrying the matter as quickly as we can. It has been introduced into the other House.

German Reparation

asked the Prime Minister whether he will reconsider his decision to include in the Blue Book dealing with German reparation only the documents since August, 1922; and, following the precedent set in the French Yellow Book containing negotiations with regard to security for France, will he publish, subject to the consent of the Allied Governments, all documents relating to negotiations on reparation since January, 1919?

The complete publication of all documents regarding the negotiations on reparations since January, 1919, would involve negotiations with all the other Powers concerned of such difficulty and length that I do not feel there is sufficient cause to justify me in undertaking it, even apart from the very considerable expense that would be involved. The more important decisions taken by the Allies have already from time to time been laid as Parliamentary Papers; and the official correspondence between the Reparation Commission and the German Government is periodically published by the Reparation Commission itself and is thus available to the public.

Ex-Enemy Nationals (British Property)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that recently, by administrative Order and without any intimation to Parliament or the public, power has been given to Lord Blanesburgh's Committee to release property of the value of about £4,000,000 belonging to ex-enemy nationals, which by the Peace Treaties and the Orders made thereunder was available for the payment of British creditors for debts due to them from ex-enemy nationals and their Governments, and for compensation due to British creditors for loss of property taken from them during the War; whether since the effect of this release is to relieve ex-enemy Governments, to the extent of the property so released, from the obligations undertaken by them under the Peace Treaties to compensate their own nationals for property taken to pay British creditors, he will say what steps he proposes to take in order to make good to British creditors the losses incurred by them owing to the release of the property of ex-enemy nationals?

As the answer is of considerable length, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is it not the cast-that there is a serious loss to British nationals, amounting to a sum of practically £4,000,000, and will he see what can be done in the matter?

I think it is true to say that this matter was referred by the former President of the Board of Trade to Lord Blanesburgh's Committee. The recommendations of the Committee do not necessarily mean that there is the loss referred to in the hon. Member's question.

Does not the hon. Gentleman understand that there is not sufficient money to satisfy British creditors, and that, unless the British Government pay for the German Government, those creditors will not be paid?

Following is the answer:

Power to release ex-enemy property is vested, by the Treaty of Peace Acts, and Orders in Council made thereunder, in the Custodian of Enemy Property acting under the general direction of the Board of Trade, and it is not necessary for the Board to obtain Parliamentary sanction for carrying out their statutory functions. Lord Blanesburgh's Committee's powers are confined to making recommendations to the Board of Trade for the release of property, and it is pointed out in the Committee's report that recommendations for release to the maximum extent would not diminish the dividend payable on claims, other than those in respect of debts and proceeds of liquidation of property, by more than from 2s. to 2s. 6d. in the £. The effect of the release of such property is to relieve the ex-enemy Governments to the extent of the property so released from the obligation to compensate their own nationals, but the amount to be provided by the ex-enemy Governments consequent on such releases will be pro tanto increased.

Iraq

Boundary Commission

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the present position with regard to the mixed Commission for the settlement of the boundary of Iraq; and what is the position with regard to Iraq entering the League of Nations?

The Treaty of Lausanne provided that the Turco-Iraq frontier was to be laid down in friendly arrangement between Turkey and Great Britain within nine months, and, failing agreement within this period, the matter was to be referred to the Council of the League. The nine months period commenced on the 5th October, on the completion of the Allied evacuation of Constantinople. A meeting of British and Turkish delegates to discuss the matter will, it is hoped, take place at an early date at Constantinople. The answer to the second part of the question is that when the Treaty with King Feisal, of the 10th October, 1922, has been ratified, His Majesty's Government will be bound, under Article 6 of that instrument, to use their good offices to secure the admission of Iraq to membership of the League of Nations as soon as possible.

What is the cause of the delay in the ratification of this Treaty? Is it on our part or what are we waiting for?

British Troops

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can yet give any decision as to the date on which our troops will leave Iraq?

I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member's similar question on the 10th instant.

If I put this question down next week or next month—[HON. MEMBERS: "Or next year!"]—will I get an answer?

High Commissioner (Residence)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the amount of money spent up to date upon the palace of the High Commissioner of Iraq; and does he anticipate any further expenditure before Iraq is evacuated?

I have already replied to a question put to me by the hon. Member in similar terms on the 27th February. I have nothing to add.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman propose to recommend any further payments on this palace?

Questions

Naval Armaments (Washington Treaty)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the failure of France up to now to ratify the Root resolutions which were agreed to by her representatives at Washington creates alarm in shipping circles of all nations as indicating a return to the doctrines of what was known as the Jeune Ecole in the last century in favour of sink-at-sight; and whether he will make representations in order to relieve anxieties?

It is much to be hoped that the French Government will see their way to ratify the Treaty of Washington, which embodies the Root resolutions, but the matter is not one on which I feel able to make the kind of representations suggested.

British Minister, Budapest

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a new appointment is to be made to the post of British Minister at Budapest; and, if so, what are the reasons for the change?

No arrangements have been made for a new appointment at Budapest.

Jugoslavia (British Consular Officers)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Consular officers were maintained by His Majesty's Government in 1914 in the area now comprised in Jugoslavia; how many are now in the same area; and from what places, if any, have they been withdrawn?

Six consular officers were maintained by His Majesty's Government in 1914 in the area mentioned, and seven are now maintained there. It has been found possible to dispense with the Vice-Consulate which existed at Monastir in 1914

Montenegro

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the circumstances under which the Montenegrins are alleged to have allied themselves with the Serb-Croat-Slovene state; whether he is aware that the Montenegrins allege that this alliance or fusion was effected under duress; and whether he will ascertain the accuracy of the fact with a view to the reference of the question to the League of Nations for inquiry and arbitration?

I have repeatedly referred hon. Members interested in this question to Cmd. Paper 1124 of 1921. His Majesty's Government despatched a special mission of inquiry to be present in Montenegro during the elections, and they satisfied themselves at the time that these elections were not carried out under duress.

Royal Navy

Singapore Naval Base

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have arrived at any decision upon the question of the Singapore naval base?

Perhaps the Noble Lord will await the statement of the Government's policy regarding this question which will be made in the course of the Debate on the Navy Estimates to-morrow.

Will that statement embrace a full disclosure of the communications made by the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand?

Air Arm

asked the Prime Minister whether the arrange- ments made last year for the control, manning, and training of the Air Forces associated with the Navy is working satisfactorily; and whether naval requirements are being fully complied with?

The arrangements have not been put into operation owing to a disagreement as to the interpretation of, and means of giving effect to, the decisions The Government have taken steps by which the matters in dispute may be adjudicated when the decisions in question must be put into operation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire why the Director of Naval Construction is not represented on the Board of Aeronautical Services?

Which is the source of the disagreement? Is it the Admiralty or is it the Air Force?

New Cruiser Construction

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government is willing to leave a decision as to the building of the five cruisers to a free vote of the House?

The Government must make it clear that it is responsible for this proposal and wishes to have it approved. I, therefore, regret that I cannot accept the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend.

Will the right hon. Gentleman submit to the House the original proposals to lay down eight cruisers?

Questions

Ex-Service Men (Civil Service)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his undertaking to place upon the establishment without examination competent ex-service men employed in a temporary capacity in the Civil Service, he is prepared to dissolve the Southborough Committee and give immediate effect to such undertaking or, alternatively, to vary the terms of reference to the Southborough Committee so that they may report solely on the best method of carrying such undertaking into effect?

The admission of competent temporary ex-service men to the permanent establishment has been proceeding on the lines recommended by the Lytton Committee and the question what, if any, modification is necessary has been referred to the Southborough Committee, whose report on the matter is awaited. As regards the terms of reference to the Southborough Committee, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 10th March to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne.

Why is there any necessity to refer the modification of the practice to the Southborough Committee, when the Prime Minister and those who sit alongside of him have agreed that these men should be promoted on account of their efficiency, without examination?

I have made inquiry and I do not think that there was an undertaking on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend. In point of fact, it is quite impossible now to take this out of the consideration of the Southborough Committee.

There has been some difficulty owing to illness, but the Committee will sit this afternoon.

Will that be the first sitting during the present Session of Parliament?

Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea when we are likely to get a report from the Southborough Committee?

No, I cannot; but I have no doubt that the Committee will do everything in its power to present an early report.

Can the hon. Gentleman make some announcement which will alleviate the uncertainty which many men who have been employed for several years are at present living under, and can they have some assurance as to their future?

I have made many announcements. Our difficulty is that the work has come to an end in many Departments, and there is no longer anything more for the men to do. We are doing everything we can to find other employment for them.

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the closing of the Civil Service to new and young entrants until the ex-service civil servants threatened with discharge are absorbed, in view of their experience gained since entry and of their having passed an examination?

Any discharges of ex-service temporary clerks now taking place or imminent are due to reduction of work and not to the recruitment from outside the service of corresponding grades, which has been almost entirely suspended for a number of years. I am not aware that any of the men concerned have passed an examination.

Will the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee to the House that no ex-service man will be dismissed until the Southborough Committee has reported?

It is impossible to give a guarantee of that kind. I can only repeat that we will do our best to get an early report from the Committee and to find work for men who are displaced.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while the Southborough Committee is now sitting these men are still under sentence of dismissal, which means a sentence of going on to the dole, and could not these men be retained as an ordinary employer would retain them, until the Southborough Committee has reported?

Inshore Fishing (Three-Mile Limit)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the injury done by trawlers to the inshore fishing grounds, His Majesty's Government are prepared to take the necessary steps to consult all the Powers interested for the purpose of extending the present three-mile limit a further ten miles for fishery purposes?

His Majesty's Government, as at present advised, do not see their way to consider an extension of the general limit of territorial waters for fisheries or any other purpose beyond a distance of three miles from low-water mark, but I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland in the Debate on this subject on the 11th instant.

Trial by Jury

asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the present Government, by early legislation, to reproduce the position in regard to the right to trial by jury in civil cases in the High Court and County Court as it was before the War?

I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 20th February last to the hon. Member for Bodmin. When the Bill comes on for discussion in this House, it will be possible to ascertain the general sense of the House upon the proposals contained in it with reference to trial by jury in civil cases.

Safeguarding of Industries Act

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the present uncertainty with regard to the extension of the Safeguarding of Industries Act is detrimental to industry and the continued employment of many workers; and whether he can now state the policy of the Government towards this Act?

asked the Prime Minister if he can now make any statement with regard to the policy on the Safegarding of Industries Act?

I shall answer these questions together. The matter is still under consideration, and I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement.

Members of Parliament (Railway Passes)

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider extending to Members of this House the privilege enjoyed by all members of the Commonwealth Government of Australia and the members of each State Government, and the members of the Governments of New Zealand, Africa, and Canada, who are allowed first-class free railway travelling over the whole of the Dominions at all times during the period of their Parliamentary service?

As I stated in reply to questions on this subject on the 10th March, I propose to give an opportunity to Parliament to discuss this matter. It will then be possible for my hon. Friend to debate such points as are raised by this question.

Evictions (Unemployed Tenants)

asked the Prime Minister if the Government will take steps to protect from eviction unemployed tenants who are unable to pay their rents?

asked the Prime Minister if he will find time this Session for a Bill for a reduction of rents to the pre-War standard and the passage of an emergency Measure to protect the homes of unemployed families from the terrors of eviction?

I shall answer these questions together. Such powers would have to be granted by legislation of which, my hon. Friends will agree, there is little prospect. The position is undoubtedly getting serious in some industrial centres, especially where wide combinations of house owners Have been formed. I hope that consultations now in process by the Secretary for Scotland will result in municipal policies that will temporarily meet the case. The question of rents is now occupying the attention of a Committee upstairs.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the trouble is by no means confined to Scotland? Could not a one-Clause Bill, giving alternative accommodation as the qualification necessary for eviction, be pushed through this House with the consent of all parties?

Would the Prime Minister make some announcement that would' stop evictions now; not wait until a Bill or anything is passed, but now? The demand of the country is that this is to be stopped now. The right hon. Gentleman is in a position to make that pronouncement.

Official Documents (Ministerial Quotation)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a quotation made by a Member of the Government from the minutes of a sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence; and whether he will take steps to safeguard the confidential character of these Reports?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I was informed that an explanation and apology was given at once when the matter was brought to the notice of the Minister concerned. As regards the second part of the question, there must be no departure from the established practice, and I regret the incident to which reference is made.

Northern Ireland (Land Purchase)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state when the Land Purchase Bill for Northern Ireland will be introduced?

It is the intention of the Government to introduce this Bill as soon as possible, but I am not in a position to name a date.

Scottish Law Officers

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General for Scotland are not in the House and perform no political function, he will say what reduction, if any, has been made in the salaries of these Law Officers because of this?

The hon. Member is misinformed. Both gentlemen perform political functions. No such reduction has been made, nor, in my opinion, would it be justified.

Advising His Majesty's Government, which is their main function.

At the opening of Parliament, did the right hon. Gentleman not make a statement that the appointments of these two gentlemen were non-political in character? Therefore, how can they be carrying out political functions?

asked the Prime Minister what provision has been made for the House obtaining legal information when Scottish questions of law arise in the House?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 18th February in reply to a question by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge).

May we be told if the Lord Advocate of Scotland and the Solicitor-General for Scotland have a room at the House, where Scottish Members can consult them on legal questions?

I understand there is such a room, and I am perfectly certain if hon. Members try to find it for themselves they will be able to discover it.

Some of the Scottish Members have been trying for a fortnight to find that room, and they have not found it yet.

Ranker Officers (Pensions)

asked the Prime Minister if he will state the composition of, and terms of reference to, the committee to inquire into the case of Army pensioner ranker officers?

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to set up the committee to inquire into the grievances of the ex-ranker officer at an early date; and whether he can now state the terms of reference to such committee?

I shall answer these questions together. The terms of reference and composition of the committee are under consideration. No time will be lost in dealing with the matter, and I will make an announcement at the earliest possible moment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make an announcement before the close of this week?

The matter has advanced its first stage already. If I can, I would like to make an announcement to-morrow, but that is not a pledge.

Land Reclamation (the Wash)

asked the Prime Minister if the question of the reclamation of the submerged area known as the Wash has been considered by the Cabinet?

I have been asked to reply. The whole subject of reclamation, with special reference to the Wash, has been carefully considered within the last few weeks. The Government is advised that the reclamation of the Wash by the single operation of constructing a dam across the mouth as appears to be suggested in certain quarters, is an impracticable proposition. An alternative scheme for reclaiming a large portion of the Wash is probably feasible, but would take very many decades to complete and would depend on the preliminary operation of training into deep water the rivers discharging into the Wash, which of itself would involve an expenditure so great that no engineer has yet been found willing to give even an approximate estimate. I am considering schemes for reclaiming one or two littoral sections of the area.

Is the Minister aware that there are Members in this House who have grown, on land reclaimed from the sea, a greater proportion of barley than is grown in many other parts of Great Britain, and that this question of the Wash is not merely a matter of immediate benefit, but is a matter of permanent benefit to the nation?

Would it not be possible to reclaim large areas of land all over the country from the useless purposes to which they are now put?

Severn Barrage Scheme

asked the Prime Minister if the Cabinet have considered the question of the Severn barrage scheme in its relation to skilled workers wasting energy; and, if so, will this work be put in hand at once?

I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which was given him by the President of the Board of Trade on the 17th February, in which he pointed out that, in view of the nature of the preliminary investigations which are necessary, the scheme, even if found to be practicable, could not be of assistance in reducing unemployment in the near future.

May I repeat to the hon. Gentleman the question which I have already put to the Minister of Agriculture and also ask whether or not, having regard to the permanent value of this work, he is prepared to submit it to his experts for reconsideration?

The question of putting in hand the necessary investigation is now being considered by the Board of Trade.

Irish Free State (British Subjects)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the fact that, under the terms of the Constitution of the Irish Free State, all Englishmen, resident in the Free State for less than seven years at the time of the coming into operation of the Constitution, have been deprived of their right to vote at Parliamentary elections, and that no Englishman or any person coming from the Dominions can now become a citizen of or get a vote in the Irish Free State; and, considering that any citizen of the Irish Free State can acquire the right to vote in Great Britain or in the Dominions by residence there for the statutory period, will he make representations to the Free State authorities with a view to securing immediate legislation to preserve the natural rights of British subjects, whether from Great Britain or the Dominions, to the same rights in the Irish Free State as are accorded to citizens of the Free State in all other parts of the British Empire?

Under Article 3 of the Irish Free State Constitution, citizenship of the Irish Free State (upon which the right to vote depends) is open to all persons domiciled in the Free State on the 6th December, 1922, who were born in Ireland, or either of whose parents was born in Ireland, or who had been ordinarily resident in the area of the Irish Free State for not less than seven years. The Article further provides that the condition governing the future acquisition of citizenship shall be determined by law; and I have no doubt that, in considering the form such legislation should take, the Government of the Irish Free State will give weight to the consideration urged by the hon. and gallant Member. Meanwhile there do not appear to be any grounds upon which His Majesty's Government could make representations to the Government of the Irish Free State upon a matter which is purely domestic to that State.

What is to happen to Englishmen or men from the Dominions who go to Ireland? They have no rights at the present time, and will the right hon. Gentleman see about it?

As the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, this is part of a Treaty which was adopted by this House when the hon. and gallant Member himself was a Member and was present.

Tanganyika

S.S. "Lord Milner."

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what date the Government of Tanganyika Territory acquired the s.s. "Lord Milner'; what was the initial cost; how much was spent on refitting her; how much has been spent to date on keeping her in commission; whether he is aware that the s.s. "Lord Milner" has been recently condemned by a board of surveyors as un-seaworthy; and, in case it is proposed to replace her, if he will first consider the more economical alternative of utilising the existing British steamship companies' coastal services for transporting the Governor and other Government officials?

The "Lord Milner" was purchased from the Naval Prize Court in November, 1918, for £10,535, and cost £55,882 to refit, the charges for such work being abnormal at the time. I am not in a position to give the total amount spent on keeping her in commission, but in the year ending 31st May, 1923, the expenditure involved in connection with this vessel was about £12,600 as against receipts of about £3,900. She has been condemned as unseaworthy, and the question of replacing her by a small vessel is under consideration. The transport of the Governor and other officials forms but a small portion of the work required of the vessel, which is mainly employed in inspecting the numerous lighthouses and buoys along 450 miles of coast, which duties can only be performed satisfactorily by a vessel specially devoted to the purpose.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the tonnage of this ship, in view of the fact that the money spent on her repair is almost enough to refit a light cruiser?

Dar-Es-Salaam

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to authorise fresh capital expenditure on the port of Dar-es-Salaam; whether he will furnish the House with a full Report showing the nature of the improvements and the estimated cost before authorising any such expenditure; and whether the work will be carried out by contract after public tender or departmentally?

Schemes for the improvement of the harbour at Dar-es-Salaam have been drawn up, but no decision has yet been arrived at. In the circumstances I am not in a position to give any definite undertaking at this stage.

German Note Redemption

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the amount taken in silver coin from Indian residents of Tanganyika Territory by Germans during the War in German East Africa, the amount of interim notes issued by the Germans in exchange for that coin, and the total value of interim notes redeemed by the Custodian of Enemy Property in Tanganyika; what relation the amount actually paid bears to the nominal value of the notes redeemed; whether he is aware that notes to the value of 15 million rupees are still unredeemed; and what steps he is taking to settle the question of redemption of the unredeemed notes still outstanding?

As the answer to this question is necessarily a long one, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

I am not in a position to give precise figures, but I am aware that large numbers of interim notes were issued by the German authorities in German East Africa during the War, many of them in exchange for silver coin surrendered under compulsion. Exhaustive consideration has been given to the possibility of payment in respect of these notes being made by the Custodian of Enemy Property out of the proceeds of liquidation of the German property in the Territory in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles or of otherwise obtaining payment from Germany, and instructions have been sent to the Governor to arrange for the registration of claims by the holders. I am not aware that any such claims have been paid by the Custodian, and it is not possible to state to what extent the claims can be met until the matter has been considered by the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal.

Questions

Political Parties (Accounts)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government contemplate introducing legislation to impose an obligation upon political parties to prepare and render to the Registrar-General a complete annual statement of income and expenditure, showing the source from whom received and how expended, as at present applicable to trade unions; and whether such legislation will impose upon headquarters and local organisations an obligation to keep their accounts ready and open to inspection as and when required by the Registrar-General?

However desirable this may be, the present Session, I fear, cannot see it done. As regards trade unions, I would point out that the liability to furnish annual statements of income and expenditure only rests on those organisations desiring to take advantage of the privileges conferred by registration.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us where the Liberals and Tories get their political money?

National Debt (Royal Commission)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give the names of the Commissioners whom he has appointed to inquire into the burden of the War Debt and the most advantageous means of coping with it?

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes to be able to announce the names tomorrow.

Is it a fact that one or two of the gentlemen who have been asked to serve cannot do so?

League of Nations

asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for the issue as a Parliamentary Paper of a Report by the British representative of the work of each session of the Council of the League of Nations?

I will discuss the suggestion with my Noble Friend the Lord President of the Council on his return from Geneva, but I hope to continue the present custom of publication.

Nigeria (Railway Traffic)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the serious delay on the part of the Nigerian Railway in moving the ground-nut crop from the interior to the coast; and has he received any representation from the Governor that this is owing to a lack of engine drivers?

I am aware that there is some difficulty in dealing with the volume of traffic suddenly presented to the railway; and I have been informed that more engine drivers are required. Steps are being taken to engage men as rapidly as possible.

Do I understand that the Governor has to get leave from the Secretary of State before he can employ an extra engine driver?

Gold Coast Colony

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Governor of the Gold Coast Colony is due to leave that Colony in April; and whether, seeing that Mr. Palmer will also arrive in the Colony to make his investigation in the same month, he will consider the advisability of inviting the Governor to remain in the Colony until Mr. Palmer arrives?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Governor, Sir Gordon Guggisberg, will be in this country when Mr. Palmer returns from the Gold Coast, and will he available for discussions arising out of the latter's report.

May I ask whether it is not true that the whole of these costly and extensive works will be carried out departmentally under the personal supervision of the Governor, and, therefore, is it not essential that His Excellency should be there when Mr. Palmer arrives?

My hon. Friend knows that the object of sending Mr. Palmer is because of the dissatisfaction that exists with regard to the whole situation, and in sending someone independent it is, I think, an advantage for him to go free and untrammelled from anybody in giving a report.

Kenya (Land Tenure)

asked whether the Report upon the Kenya native land question and the suggested native land trust has yet been received; and, if so, whether it is proposed to publish it?

The Report of the Kenya Land Tenure Commission was received last year, and I had hoped that the observations of the Governor would by this time have been received. I am drawing his attention to the matter by telegraph. The Report has been published locally, and I am arranging for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House. I cannot consider any further publication until I have received and considered the Governor's comments.

West African Railways

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will have prepared a comparative table showing the railway charges upon raw produce over a given mileage in the British, French and Belgian railway systems of the West African Dependencies?

I will have the figures got out, and will send them in due course to the hon. Member.

Hong Kong

War Office Lands

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the £2,000,000 agreed to by the legislative assembly at Hong Kong to be paid for the War Office lands is clear gain to the British Exchequer and that otter land is to be handed over for military exercises, or whether this land has to be purchased; if so, what arrangements have been made; and whether the purchase price includes the military hospital?

The payment to be made by Hong Kong will take the form of a credit due to the War Office, out of which provision will be made by Hong Kong for alternative accommodation for the troops. The details of the accommodation to be provided are still under discussion between the War Office, the General Officer Commanding and the Government of Hong Kong. So far as I am aware, the site of the European military hospital would be included in the arrangement.

Treatment of Children

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that it is part of the duties of a Government official in Hong Kong to pass young girls into the various classes of brothels in that Colony; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter?

The object of the practice to which my hon. Friend refers is purely protective.

Questions

Crown Colonies (Garrisons)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of Crown Colonies which need a garrison of British troops; and whether, if there are any such cases, he will consider whether they can be garrisoned by nativei troops, thus relieving the burden on the British taxpayer?

Imperial troops are stationed in ten Colonies. In several locally raised troops are employed. The question how far this system could be extended is primarily one for the military authorities.

May I ask that, in putting the question before the military authorities, the right hon. Gentleman will do nothing whatever to suggest that he gives his support to such a suggestion?

Jamaica (Constitution)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the question of the reform of the Constitution of Jamaica has now been settled; what is to be the composition of the new Legislative Council and Executive Committee; and what reserve powers are preserved to the Governor?

A decision has now been taken with regard to the reform of the Jamaica Constitution, and I have already informed the Governor by telegram that, after careful consideration of his views and those of the Legislative Council, I have much pleasure in finding myself able to advise His Majesty to accept them in their amended form. This decision will include the retention of the power of veto of nine elected members, to which I referred in my reply to the hon. Member's question of the 25th February. Full details of the views of the present Legislative Council; of the composition proposed for the new Council and for the Executive Committee, and of the powers reserved to the Governor, are set out in a convenient form in the Papers which have already been placed in the Library of the House.

British Empire Exhibition

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he will use his influence to prevent the employment of alien instead of British labour at the Empire Exhibition at Wembley?

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 4th March, in answer to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Harmsworth).

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any women of the native races are being brought to Wembley in connection with the British Empire Exhibition; and, if so, what steps the Government is taking to offer them adequate protection?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am informed that special accommodation within the Exhibition area has been provided by the responsible Dominion, Colonial, and Indian Authorities for all women of native races who are at present known to be coming to this country in connection with the Exhibition. I also understand that it would be open to the authorities concerned to take advantage of the facilities provided for the accommodation of such women by the Y.W.C.A., in a hostel at Ickenham, should the need arise.

Agriculture

Small Holdings and Allotments

asked the Minister of Agriculture what is the number of smallholders and allotment holders compared with three years ago; and, in view of the restrictions of vegetables, etc., exported from France, what steps he proposes to take to assist and stimulate the movement?

The number of agricultural holdings above 1 and not exceeding 50 acres in England and Wales was 274,796 in 1920 and 270,588 in 1923. The number of allotments in England and Wales at the end of 1920 was 1,330,000. Returns are now being collected of the number of allotments on 31st December, 1923, and a preliminary examination of the returns so far received indicates that the number on that date was about 10 percent, less than three years ago. With regard to the latter part of the question, so far as allotments are concerned, I would refer the hon. Baronet to the reply given to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. T. Smith), on the 6th instant, by the Parliamentary Secretary; and as regards small holdings, to the detailed reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir R. Winfrey) on the 13th instant.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the high rents charged to ex-service men and other smallholders under the Small Holdings Acts, 1908 and 1919, and having regard to the great anxiety which is felt as to the future position of these men, he will state on what basis the rents of smallholders are being reviewed; and whether he will give instructions that the permanent rents will be based on the fair letting value of these holdings and not on their initial cost?

Before the War, the rents of statutory small holdings were, generally speaking, fixed at an amount to cover loan charges and other outgoings. In giving its approval to the rents charged for small holdings let by councils since 1919, the Ministry has had regard to the statutory direction contained in Section 11 of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, which provides that land acquired should be let in small holdings at the best sum that can reasonably be obtained. The rents fixed for holdings provided since the Armistice have at no time had any regard to the initial cost of the holdings.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases the Government is charging these smallholders more than double the amount charged by landlords?

The Commissioners are instructed to proceed on the basis of fair letting value.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, having regard to the large number of unsatisfied applicants for smallholdings, he will reconsider the present policy of the Ministry with a view to providing a further supply of holdings under the Small Holdings Acts, 1908 to 1919?

Yes, Sir. As I stated, in reply to the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir R. Winfrey) on the 13th instant, I am carefully considering whether it is possible to relax the financial conditions imposed in the interests of economy by the Ministry in regard to the provision of smallholdings.

Canadian Cattle (Importation)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state how many-heads of cattle have been shipped for transport to this country from Canada under the Importation of Cattle Act, 1922; how many have died or have been killed whilst on the journey; how many have had to be killed at the port of landing; and how many have been placed on the land?

The number of cattle shipped as stores to this country from Canada under the Importation of Animals Act from 1st April, 1923, to the 8th instant was 28,183. Of these, 27 died or were killed during the journey, 10,896 were slaughtered at the port of landing, and 17,260, or 61 per cent., were placed on the land.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the passage of that Act has reduced the price of meat?

Veterinary Inspection (Birkenhead)

asked the Minister of Agriculture the annual cost in the last completed year of the veterinary inspection of cattle, sheep, and pigs at the Birkenhead (Woodside) and Wallasey lairages, and the income derived in the same period from the inspection charges?

The figures asked for are available only in respect of the nine months from the 1st April to the 31st December, 1923. During that period the cost of veterinary inspection at Birkenhead (Wallasey and Woodside) is estimated at £2,350, to which there should be added expenses in respect of headquarters charges and of inspection of cattle at places of detention. The total expenditure under these heads amounts approximately to £3,000 for the mine months. The net receipts of fees for the same period amount to £4,350. I should explain that the scale of fees was fixed with a view to covering the cost of inspection at the landing places as a whole and that a surplus of receipts over expenditure at one port goes to set off any deficiency which may be incurred at another.

In view of that surplus, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of reducing the charges?

Yes, if there is a surplus on the total transaction, I will consider it.

County Committees

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that, owing to the non-payment of expenses, some members of county agricultural committees are unable to attend; and will he, in accordance with the provisions of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries Act, 1919, arrange for the payment of travelling expenses and subsistence allowance of members of the committee or of any sub-committee of the committee?

The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, I hope that provision will be made to make it possible for the expenses of labour representatives on county agricultural committees and their sub-committees to be paid, but it will, in that event, be necessary for each county council to amend the scheme under which the agricultural committee is set up.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give encouragement to the agricultural committees of the county councils in this connection?

House of Commons

Members' Tea Room (Enunciator)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will arrange for an enunciator to be fixed in the Members' tea room?

I regret that I cannot adopt the hon. Member's suggestion, on account of the expenditure involved for installation and maintenance.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the tea room is being increasingly used by Members of this House, and that it is quite an inconvenience not to know what is going on in the House?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the so-called tea room is largely the dining room of Members on this side?

I am aware that the stay of hon. Members in the tea room is not regularly protracted.

Seats for Members

asked the First Commissioner of Works if he has considered the provision of a seat for each Member of the House; and, if not, whether he intends to consider the same?

The question raised by the hon. Member has frequently been considered, but any enlargement of the Chamber has been regarded as impracticable.

May I ask if the present Commissioner of Works is going to allow the fungus of old time custom in this House to prevent any Member having the seat he occupies?

If my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member has any suggestion, I shall be very glad to consider it.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any other House in the world where a Member has not a seat?

If I were an engineer, I could suggest something. If I am to be employed to make suggestions, am I to be paid as an engineer for giving the idea and carrying out the work?

Would the right hon. Gentleman give some advice that the seats under the Public Gallery might be considered as part of the House, instead of Members who sit there being declared to be outside? Could not the whole accommodation on the floor of the House be put at the service of Members?

Poor Law Relief (Repatriates from Russia)

asked the Minister of Health how many repatriates from Russia are at present in receipt of Poor Law relief?

I regret that my right hon. Friend has no information on this point.

Power House, Beachley

asked the President of the Board of Trade if it is the intention of the Government to close down the power house at Beachley, Gloucester; and, if so, will he state the reason why?

This power station is one of the items connected with the national shipyards which the Board of Trade have to liquidate, and it is only being kept open for liquidation purposes. I cannot say yet how soon it will be possible to close the station.

Is it correct that the Government is closing down the power house to enable private companies to extend their business?

I think the real reason is that we are making lose on the working of the power station.

Coal Industry

Wages Dispute

( by Private Notice ): asked the Prime Minister if he can give the House any information as to the negotiations proceeding in the Coal Trade; and what action, if any, the Government propose to take?

From the time the Government came into office, this danger of a coal mining strike has been the subject of constant consideration and interviews with representative persons and organisations. As the House is aware, the coal owners have made an offer to the miners, the terms of which have been published. The miners' representatives regard this offer as inadequate and they ask for legislation to secure for them wages commensurate with the cost of living.

At interviews which my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines subsequently had with representatives of each side, it became apparent that, though the coal owners stated that they had already gone to the furthest possible limit of concession, each side preferred to secure a settlement by industrial negotiation, if possible. My hon. Friend is, therefore, inviting both sides to meet him again this week, in the hope that some way of achieving this may be found.

The Government will continue to use its good offices to secure such a settlement, and, so soon as a further announcement can profitably be made to the House, I shall communicate with the leaders of the other parties and make arrangements for a further question.

Questions

Questions to Ministers

I rise to a point of Order, with reference to a private notice Question I gave to you, Sir, in regard to German competition for the Indian State railways, which, I understand, you have disallowed on the ground that the Home Government are not responsible. I beg to submit to you, Sir, that they have responsibility owing to the Treaty of Versailles giving them power to deal with this German competition, and, in view of the urgency of the matter—the contract, I understand, will be placed tomorrow morning—involving considerable loss of work to the unemployed people of this country, may I ask you whether, in these circumstances, you will allow the question to be put?

I have considered it carefully, and it does not appear to me to be a subject for a special question in the House.

Business of the House

With reference to the first Motion on the Paper, suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule, may I ask the Leader of the House what business he proposes to take?

Only the two Army Votes, unless the Debate on the subject is terminated before 11 o'Clock, in which case we shall proceed with a discussion of the Air Estimates. Of course, we have no intention of carrying on that Debate beyond 11 o'Clock, or of seeking a vote on the latter question.

Ordered,

"That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, the Proceedings of the Committee of Supply and Proceedings on Reports of Supply may be taken this day after Eleven of the Clock, and the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Clynes. ]

I beg to move,

We now ask the assent of the House to the alternative course which evidently, judging by the decision given on Thursday last, the House prefers. It was said that this course was the obvious course. Whether that be true or not, it is now rendered inevitable because of the state of public business. I understand that in addition to the Leader of the Opposition having signified his approval of this course, public support has been given to it on behalf of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who sit below the Gangway. To that I would only add this: that in this Parliament no party has a majority. Our successors may well be in a position similar to our own. We may have entered upon a new era in regard to the arrangements to be made, and I suggest that it would be well if Parliament began well in its treatment of Governments placed in a position of being in office, but not able to command a majority of the votes of the House. I think it would be agreed that in very large measure any Government, whether in a minority or not, must not only be treated fairly in very general terms, but must have in its keeping a very large part of the authority of the House for determining the course of action and the business from day to day.

Let me briefly state what the position is. There is a heavy financial programme still to be disposed of, and which must be cleared away before 31st March. There are seven Supplementary Estimates, one Excess Vote in Committee; 15 Supplementary Estimates, Report stages; Navy Estimates, for which we must get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair in addition to getting the necessary Votes in Committee and their Reports. There are the Army Estimates Vote A and the Vote on Account and Report; Air Force Votes in Committee and Report; Ways and Means Resolutions, Committee and Report.

The Government, therefore, propose to allot the seven days now available as follow: First, let me take the fighting forces. Last year five days were allowed for moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair and obtaining the necessary Votes on Account for the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. This included both the Committee and Report stages of each Vote. This year it is proposed, in all, to allot seven days, including the two already given. As regards to-day, the Government will be content to obtain Vote A and the Vote on Account, as I have already said, for the Army. As regards the Navy Estimates, the Government would, if it were possible, like to give two days for moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, and for obtaining the necessary Votes in Committee, but as this is not possible, owing to the shortness of the time, we propose to ask the House to suspend the Eleven o' Clock Rule to-morrow for the purpose merely of moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair and of obtaining the necessary Votes in Committee on the Navy Estimates.

Finally, the Government propose to give two days to the consideration of Supplementary Estimates, namely Wednesday and Friday of this week. This includes the remaining seven Supplemen- tary Estimates, the Excess Vote and the outstanding Reports. The Government do not propose to take any legislation before the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill on Wednesday, 26th March, except the Report and Third Reading of the Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill at present being considered in Committee upstairs. This, I am certain, will be regarded as a non-controversial Bill which it is essential should be passed before 31st March, to prevent existing powers from lapsing. In view of these considerations, I commend this Motion to the House.

I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this Motion, but of making one or two observations. It is perfectly plain that, with the amount of financial business that is to be done, almost every Government in turn is driven to put a Motion of this kind on the Paper. It is also, surely, equally true that in the House constituted as this is, whatever opposition we or other sections of the House may offer to those who for the time being occupy the Government Benches, we must not suffer the financial business of the country to be held up. But I would like to observe this, that while I quite sympathise with hon. Members opposite who may have lost their Fridays, I claim for my hon. Friends behind me that they are equally entitled to sympathy for the loss of Wednesday evenings they have surrendered. The luck is even in that. That is the reason why we have taken a firm line in objecting to any partial distribution of private Members' time, but we are perfectly willing to fall in with what I believe will be the common judgment of the House that the fair thing, in all the circumstances, is to take the whole of private Members' time.

While, as the right hon. Gentleman said, this happens to every Government and will so long as Governments meet in the middle of February and have to complete their financial business before 31st March, it is equally obvious that private Members will not have their Tuesdays and Wednesday-nights nor their Fridays. This has been the experience of those of us who have been in this House for some very considerable time, and unless some adjustment is made by which private Members' time is thrown into a different part of the Session altogether, we will always have these debates. Just to illustrate: everybody knows that from February up to Easter there are two nights in each week and the Fridays which are devoted to private Members, whereas between Easter and Whitsuntide there is only one night during the week, and Fridays. While it is essential in the earlier part of the Session to get the financial business through, it is not so essential in the latter part of the Session to get so much legislation through, because the less legislation we pass the better for the country.

I do not, however, intend to repeat the arguments I have often made when this Motion has been submitted to the House. The Leader of the House said this was agreed to by the Front Bench who represent us. I do not take very much notice of that, because, when I was a Member of the same Front Bench, I also agreed to it against the wishes of our private Members. All our Front Benches will always give away private Members' rights. We may be perfectly certain about that. We need not, therefore, put any undue emphasis on that argument. I would like to ask one or two pertinent questions either of the Leader of the House or of the Prime Minister himself. There is a Committee, which was set up before the General Election, to consider the whole of this question. I am not sure that it is still sitting. I do not know whether the General Election made a break in the sittings of that Committee, but I do remember that before the late Chief Whip of the Conservative party (Colonel Leslie Wilson) went to Bombay as Governor-General his evidence with regard to the sittings of the House was taken. A General Election has intervened, but I think the Prime Minister has said that that Committee is to continue its work. I do not know whether it has been re-elected or not, but I do submit that the sooner it gets to work and reports to this House the better for the general convenience of the average Member in the House.

This is not the only inconvenience that private Members suffer. We do not know, for example, the precise dates at which our recesses are going to take place, or whether they are the most convenient times for those recesses or not, or whether it would be more convenient for the House to begin its meetings in February or at the end of the year preceding. I would urge the Prime Minister, in view of the general convenience, not only of the party which he leads, but of all the parties in the House, that this Committee which was set up should get into harness at once and should report very soon. We ought not to have this Committee sitting for months before it reports. The Prime Minister should take a personal interest in the matter, get the evidence collected before that Committee, and come to the House with a general all round proposal for an alteration in the methods by which we conduct our business, so that ad hoc questions about whether private Members' time should be taken or not shall not arise from Session to Session. I do suggest that if the Prime Minister will do this he will be conferring a great benefit upon all the Members of the House.

I only wish to ask a question and to make a statement. I am sure that my hon. and right hon. Friends will support the Government in the action that they have taken. Speaking as an old Financial Secretary to the Treasury responsible for this financial business, I think, if there be any dislike to supporting the Government, hon. Members have only to consider that the limited time at the Government's disposal before the 31st March prevents any further expenditure of any sort being introduced to regard this as inevitable. The man who is responsible for the passing of these Estimates is the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I should like, if I might without offence and speaking, I think, for the whole of the House, to compliment the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury upon and to express our gratitude to him for the energy, industry, and universal courtesy with which he has tried to carry out what every man knows is probably the most difficult work that is ever entrusted to any Minister—to stop, not obstruction, because there has not been a shadow of obstruction, but that flow of eloquent and interminable loquacity from Members of all parties from which we cannot escape, especially in a new Parliament in which so many maiden speeches have to be made. The question I should like to ask is this. Does this imply the postponement of the Trade Facilities Bill till after the 31st March? I was not quite clear about that from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. It seems to be a very contentious Bill with a large number of amendments, and I would strongly urge the right hon. Gentleman, if it be possible to pass it after the 31st March, to delay it, because, considering that the Government has less than 10 days to pass not only all the Supplementary Estimates but also the Consolidated Fund Bill, I would very strongly suggest that it should be postponed. This suggestion is not made in any spirit of hostility, because we are only too anxious to facilitate Government business.

I am sure that the House does not require many observations from me. I only rise to answer one or two questions that have been put to me, and then I hope we may settle this question and get on to business. I am an unregenerate back-bencher. I do not like this Motion; I detest being a party to taking private Members' time, but in the circumstances it is absolutely essential. I therefore give the promise to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) that this Committee will set about its own business at once. As a matter of fact, the Committee is now being set up. The usual channels are providing the men, I understand, and as soon as the names are handed in to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury the Committee will be set up. I hope that they will report without delay, because the present arrangements are really very bad and most inconvenient.

May I ask whether the Committee will be able to consider a change in the financial year, such as, for instance, the American system?

No, we cannot refer that question to them. The Committee is being appointed to consider the arrangement of the time of the House, and I hope that very good suggestions can be made which will meet the convenience of us all. The only other point was with reference to the Trade Facilities Bill. That Bill cannot possibly be taken before the conclusion of the essential financial business.

Not being a Parliamentary expert, I cannot claim to enter into competition with the great people who have already spoken, but I venture to suggest that there are others beside the clever people who know something about it. We want to know where it is that the ordinary Member of the House comes in. Why cannot we start work earlier in the morning and finish earlier in the evening? Instead of that, it seems to me that we arrange our business to suit stockbrokers and lawyers. The only time that they can be found in the House is when the Stock Exchange is closed. I am speaking the truth, and hon. Members know it. So far as we are concerned, we want to know if Members of Parliament are being paid salaries why they cannot work the ordinary hours that workmen have to work?

That is what I am talking about. We want Parliament to sit at a proper time and not keep us out late at night and send us home early in the morning. Consequently, we want an eight hours day, starting at 12 and finishing at eight, and not starting at three and finishing at half-past eleven.

You will never get paid for any overtime that you work. I am only asking that a reform shall take place, and that the House of Commons shall become a reformed Assembly, so that the people who do not work get what they are worth.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered,

"That, until the end of the financial year, Government business do have precedence at every sitting."

Adoption of Childken (Scotland) Bill,

"to make provision with respect to the adoption of Children in Scotland by suitable persons," presented by the DUCHESS OF ATHOLL; supported by Mr. Frederick Thomson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Gilmour, Mrs. Philipson, Earl of Dalkeith, Mr. Andrew Young, and Sir Murdoch Macdonald; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 2nd April, and to be printed. [Bill 75.]

Orders of the Day

Supply

[3RD ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ENTWISTLE in the Chair.]

Army Estimates, 1924–25

Number of Land Forces

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 161,600, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

On a point of Order. When this Vote was carried over the other night, I was speaking at the time. Do I not therefore resume the Debate?

On a point of Order. My object in rising the other night, as no other Member on this side rose, was to secure a place when the Debate was resumed. I thought it was always understood that a Member, rising at the time of the Adjournment, did so in order to secure a place.

There is no such established rule or custom when the House is in Committee. The hon. Member upon whom I called caught my eye first.

I will not stand very long in the way of my hon. and gallant Friend. There are only one or two points that I want to bring to the notice of the Secretary of State, and I hope very much that he will bear them in mind. Perhaps I may be allowed, first of all, to thank the Secretary of State for War and congratulate him upon his very clear and concise opening statement, and I feel perfectly certain that all hon. Members who have had the honour of serving in the Army and who have the welfare of the service at heart will be only too anxious to co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman in expelling any partisan spirit from Army Debates, and in concentrating upon helpful and substantial criticisms and suggestions, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will accept in the spirit in which they are put forward. First of all I am bound to say that I heard with the utmost disappointment and apprehension the Minister's announcement that the reduction in the rates of pay granted to officers without a corresponding reduction being made in the rates of pay to non-commissioned officers and men. I think the right hon. Gentleman would have shown a greater measure of fairness to the commissioned ranks—fairness which would have been equally appreciated by the non-commissioned ranks—if he had refrained from making any alteration in the rates of pay granted under Army Orders 394 and 395 of 1919 until he was in a position to make the alterations in respect of the commissioned and non-commissioned ranks in a fair ratio to both of them. I know, of course, that on 1st July the right hon. Gentleman will be in a position to make reductions on the cost of living basis in respect of the commissioned ranks, whereas he will not be in a position to do so in respect of the non-commissioned ranks because the preamble of Army Order 394 is different from that of Order 395. At the same time he would, I am perfectly sure, be wise to reconsider his decision to take advantage of his power under Army Order 394 until the new rates of pay for both officers and men are decided upon.

My two main arguments for this contention are, firstly, that it is generally fair to say that the commissioned ranks are more adversely affected by the cost of living than the non-commissioned ranks. As a rule the non-commissioned officer has advantages in married quarters, clothing and mess bills. Therefore it is all the more unfair that the pay of one should be reduced without the other. My second point is that when the rates of pay were increased in 1919 in Army Orders 394 and 395, the pay of the commissioned ranks was increased in a greater proportion than the non-commissioned ranks. The pay of a second-lieutenant was increased from 10s. per day without any allowance to 13s. per day, so that the second-lieutenant was very little better off, and if you reduce his pay now on the cost of living he will be worse off than he was in 1914. The pay of a lieutenant-colonel is to be increased from 23s. to 47s. 6d., which is considerably over 100 per cent. The pay of the private soldier was increased from 1s. to 2s. 9d. per day and 3s. 6d. per day after two years' service, an increase of 350 per cent. The pay of the company sergeant-major was increased from 4s. per day to 10s. or an increase of 250 per cent. I think hon. Members will agree that those are substantial arguments.

My next point is in regard of the supply of young officers. Like the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Colonel Campion), I am glad to see that the age limit for entering cadet colleges is being raised from 17J to 18 years. It has long been a source of grievance that in the past public schoolboys have not had the same opportunity of securing those glittering prizes of learning and athletics as other boys, owing to the necessity of leaving school at an earlier age to enter Woolwich or Sandhurst, and this proposal will remove that source of grievance. I am also glad that schemes are now being put in hand to stimulate the flow of candidates from our Universities. As I have had personal experience in this respect, perhaps I may be allowed to make one criticism. The hon. and gallant Member for Lewes expressed the hope that the standard of examination for entry from the Universities would not be too high in order that the Army might obtain the services of more of these young men.

In my opinion that standard is much too low and too technical at the present time. It is an examination which can be passed quite easily by a young man of average intelligence after a fortnight's cramming, and it is similar to the curriculum of the cadet colleges, but the standard is much lower. The present system gives no chance to the university students entering the Army to take advantage of those sources of academic learning which would otherwise be at his disposal, through being a member of the university. Of course, he can take an ordinary university degree, and that qualifies him for entering into the Army, but the disadvantage of that is probably that he has to stay on an extra year to get it, and he loses a year's seniority in the Army. I will not go into further details, but I speak from personal experience, and I think if the Secretary of State makes inquiries, he will find that if the curriculum is made less technical and more academic, and the standard of examination is made higher, it would be beneficial both to the students and to the Army.

My next point concerns the War Service medal. In the last 2½ years I have been pressing the various Secretaries of State and Under-Secretaries to make a definite statement as to whether or not it is the intention of the Army Council to grant the issue of battle bars to this medal. I have never yet had a definite reply to that question, and apparently the War Office have been in the course of making up their minds for the last five years. If they do not intend to do so on the point of economy, I think the time has come for them to definitely say so. But if they do give a negative answer, then steps must be taken, in conjunction with the Admiralty, to rescind the Fleet order of some two years ago granting battle bars to the Navy, because it is obviously unfair that the Navy should have battle bars and not the Army. If they do intend to grant them, why cannot they make their announcement simultaneously with the publication of the regimental battle honours for inscription on the regimental colours, which are being published day by day in the papers.

Personally I am strongly of opinion that they should be granted and issued. It is not a thing to economise over, and in any case the cost cannot be very heavy. Battle bars have been granted for every other war, and why not for the greatest War in history. I think that the man who risked his life time after time in the thick of the fight, as well as the relatives of those who fell, have a right to be distinguished from those who remained at the base and on the lines of communication under no risk, and probably in great comfort. I am sorry to see that it is the intention of the War Office to provide every man with a service dress jacket of smarter cut. I am sorry to see it because this obviously spells the death of the red coat which has such a long historic tradition in the Army. I believe that the love of the soldier's red tunic is inherent in every true born British man and woman. I can remember no more delightful moment in the whole of my life than that of a year or so ago when I saw the men of the Guards Brigade walking out in their red tunics for the first time since the War. I noticed too that no matter how cold the night, there was not a single man who put on a great coat.

There is no doubt about it that if the Army were given back their red tunics—I do not mean all the undress uniform and frills which they had before the War as well, but a plain full dress tunic of the pattern already passed by the Army Council—the recruiting offices would be filled to overflowing. How can you make a khaki tunic smart? How can a man be smart and take a pride in his appearance in a drab, dull, unromantic colour like khaki? Khaki is all very well for barrack work and field service, but give a man a decent red tunic for walking out, mounting guard and ceremonial occasions, and he will work twice as well. The first plank in my platform at the next Election will be a red tunic for the Army. I should like to be told what the difference is in cost between issuing this smart khaki tunic and the old red tunic. Even if there is a slightly increased cost, I am perfectly sure that the taxpayers of this country would only be too willing to bear it.

My last point concerns the difficulty of the soldier on discharge. I am delighted to see that the courses of training for a trade are being augmented, for this will, undoubtedly, give the soldier serving a short engagement a greater measure of security, and enable him to obtain technical employment on discharge. But what about the non-commissioned officer who takes on and serves his full time? Nothing is being done for him. Is the Secretary of State aware that at the present moment there are hundreds of regular soldiers who have served long time engagements, many of them having reached the highest positions in the noncommissioned ranks, who are on the dole? These men who have served 20 and 25 years in the Army, and who have given the best years of their life to the Service, are too old to start learning a civilian trade. The cannot do it.

A case was brought to my notice last week of an ex-regimental sergeant-major who was one of the smartest men who ever joined the Army, holding a fine record of 28 years' service in one of the Royal regiments, and he is now doing casual work and he has been on the dole. I want to get these men into proper employment, and the War Office ought immediately to put in hand some scheme, in conjunction with the Ministry of Labour, to reserve a certain number of appointments, such as departmental messengers, commissionaires, etc., to be given exclusively to men who have served long time engagements, and especially those who have had distinguished service in the non-commissioned ranks, so that they, too, will have a greater sense of security, and will not be thrown out on to the world at the age of 40 or 50, with no possible prospect of finding remunerative employment.

I want to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman regarding the Supplementary Reserve. In the Memorandum which he was good enough to circulate, it is stated that this new Reserve is to be raised on a militia basis, and I think it is desirable that any doubt as to the meaning of that term should be removed. If it is meant by "militia basis," that the obligations are similar to those of the old militia with regard to service overseas, well and good; but if it refers to the method by which the Force will be, raised and administered, and, as the Memorandum goes on to say, the Territorial Associations will be asked to undertake this work, is it not rather misleading to talk about a militia basis, and would it not be preferable to say that it will be raised on a Territorial basis? I think it is very essential that we should raise the question in this Committee, and that an appeal should go from this Committee to county Territorial associations in this matter. As I understand it, the Regular Army at the present time is incomplete so far as the technical branches for which this Reserve is wanted axe concerned. Therefore, if those technical men are necessary to complete the Regular Army as an expeditionary force, it is a matter of the very greatest importance that these technical supplementary reserves should be raised without delay.

Territorial associations have, it seems to me, a special interest in this matter. If this Reserve is organised in time of peace, and if the men are enlisted and available in time of peace, although to begin with, and, indeed, in the process of recruiting from time to time, men may be drawn from the Territorial Army into this Reserve, I think that is an advantage to the Territorial Army, because, if the Reserve is not complete, it would have to be completed in emergency largely from the Territorial divisions in time of war. That would cause dislocation in the Territorial divisions, by the transfer of men at a time when transfers would be most inconvenient, and, therefore, it is essential, in the interest of Territorial associations and of the Territorial Army generally, that this Reserve should be completed through the Territorial organisation, and should be maintained by encouraging men who have started their military training in the Territorial Army to transfer to the new Reserve, and so keep it complete without interfering with the Territorial Army whenever mobilisation is ordered. I should like further to suggest, regarding this Reserve, that in view of the bounties or gratuities which, I understand, would naturally be offered to men who undertook the obligation desired, it is necessary that, if possible, war service men should be enlisted in the first place, or, failing war service men, men who have had at least a year or two's training in the Territorial Army. I mention this because, in pre-War days, in East Lancashire, the Royal Army Medical Corps raised a special unit to supplement the Regular Army, and it was raised by drafting men from the Territorial field ambulances into this special reserve unit. In that way only picked men were admitted to this special service unit of the Royal Army Medical Corps. That principle succeeded so well in 1914, providing what, I believe, was the most complete unit of all the medical units that went overseas in 1914 with the Regular Army, that that lesson may well be applied in the present case. As far as possible, this new Reserve might be composed, to begin with, of men with war service, and maintained thereafter, as far as possible, with men who have done part of their training already in the Territorial Army.

I want, while I have the opportunity, to raise one further question, and that is with regard to the Committee on Army Accounts. I am very glad to see that in this Vote for men an adequate number of Accountants and Army Pay Corps is provided for. Two years ago in this Chamber I raised this question. The hon. and gallant Member for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Hodge), in the Debate the other day, said that he raised this question a year ago, but I think he must have been reading my speech of the year before. The point I raised two years ago was that a good deal of the work of the military accountants overlapped with that of the local auditors. The Committee, while recommending an amalgamation of the Pay Corps and the Accountants Corps—which I think everyone will agree is necessary—does not say much about the functions of the local auditors, except that, by this extraordinary process of decentralising to every unit its own accountancy, the local audit will more or less be dispensed with. I think that that is absolutely unworkable; but I want to go further, and to ask my right hon. Friend not to apply the recommendations of this Committee too hurriedly, or until further very careful consideration has been given to some of the points which emerge. I must say, with respect, that I was rather surprised to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) blessing the finding of this Committee, and saying that it should be put into force in each place. I want to submit to the Committee and to my right hon. Friend some considerations which require very much more careful consideration before that can be done.

The Report speaks very confidently about abolishing fixed pay centres, abolishing the present record system, and decentralising all these things to the unit. The unfortunate unit or battalion commander is, apparently, going to have still another branch of activity put under his wing, simply in order that he may be made aware of some figures in accountancy in which, perhaps, being a soldier, he takes not the least interest. The Report very properly says that, if an accountant is attached to every unit, he will probably not be fully employed, and, therefore, they must set about finding some work for him in order to keep him employed, and so have these statistical returns compiled by a man at the unit headquarters. I think, however, that there is a very important exception to be taken to the Committee's Report, because I see that in it Sir Charles Harris expresses an opinion of his own, which, most unfortunately, does not appear to have been accorded the weight which it ought to have been accorded by the other members of the Committee. I think it is desirable that I should read from it these words: If the Committee had said that they had in mind the Territorial Army difficulty, and proposed to establish unit accountants for every Territorial unit, then the increase in the total number of accountant officers which, as Sir Charles Harris says, the change would admittedly involve, would, indeed, be under-estimated. If this change is to be applied to the Territorial Army of 14 divisions, then the cost of the change is enormously under-estimated; and not only is it underestimated, but the application of this principle to the Territorial Army would cost much more than the present scheme costs.

It is perfectly true, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Colchester said the other day, that he achieved a very useful reform by getting the records transferred to the fixed pay centres, so that records and pay are looked after in one place. From the point of view of the Territorial Army—which is going to be increased—and with something like 200,000 men, whose records and pay must be looked after, it is very important that these fixed pay and record centres should be maintained. What is going to happen if they are not maintained? Obviously, it is ridiculous to maintain a unit accountant in every territorial unit, and, apparently, the work of the territorial unit will have to be transferred to the depot, which, again, would upset the estimate of man-power required for this work at the depot. What is going to happen to the Royal Artillery, the whole of whose records and pay accounts are administered from one centre, in Woolwich? Is that to be scattered broadcast to the Artillery Brigades all over the Empire? If it is, for Regular Army purposes, as the Committee indeed recommends, what is to happen to the Royal Artillery records of the Territorial Army, which are all in the same office at Woolwich? Is that office to be maintained or is it to be decentralised and broken up?

While it is true, as I myself suggested two years ago, that the Pay Corps and the Accountants Corps ought to be amalgamated—there are no two words about that—decentralisation through units is a snare and a delusion, and no one with any recent regimental experience would recommend such a ridiculous change. There need be no doubt about complete adequate costing accounts. There is need for adequate and correct costing accounts. Indeed, some of the costing which are done in the Army to-day are really too absurd to bear the light of day. I heard a few days ago one or two examples of what goes on. Of course these things are not taken exception to by Territorial commanders, because they do not directly? become charged to them. They simply go on the Territorial fund. In these small cases I came across were such things as these. Altering a few bolts and washers on some carriages—I think two or three days saw the work done—was marked up at over £20. Another man spending certainly not more than five minutes in stamping some letters on leather straps—that was marked up at 26s. 8d. Something else of a similar sort was nearly 30s. There is no sort of costing about that. It is obviously camouflage in order to cover other expenses about which questions might be asked. This sort of thing wants putting in order in the Army. It can be put in order by amalgamating the Pay Corps and the Accountants Corps, and by generally bringing up to date the methods of applying the allowance regulations and inducing commanding officers not by making them look after expenditure records and ledgers in their own office, not by looking after the unit accountant, who will always be subject to the influence of the regimental commander, a thing by no means desirable. Regimental commanders can be induced to take an interest in the accounts of their units if comparative tables are circulated and a spirit of competition is set up in this sort of way. Therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes further to consider this question of the very great and far-reaching changes recommended in this Report, will hesitate and will take much further evidence and opinion upon this question before anything so drastic is contemplated.

I gather that for the Supplemental Reserve one inducement will be that a percentage of commissions in the Regular Army will be offered to officers of the Reserve. I hope at least the same percentage will be offered for officers of the Territorial Force. When this question was raised the other day it was answered by the Under-Secretary, who said this principle would be applied. I asked him what percentage of regular commissions would be allotted to the Territorial Army. Can the representative of the War Office tell the Committee what percentage of these commissions will be allotted to the Territorial Army and to the Supplemental Reserve, and will he be sure that the Territorial Army, in proportion to its numbers and establishment, is at least as satisfactorily dealt with in this respect? Otherwise it appears to me the Army Estimates of this year, swollen as is the total compared with pre-War figures, at least provide a force which we cannot in any way afford to reduce—absolutely the rock bottom force in point of numbers that this country can possibly agree to, and I hope, as further economies are effected and the total of the money expenditure is reduced, we may see that some of these disbanded units may be resurrected while saving money on the total, something can be done to increase the man-power of the whole.

I do not con-plain of the size of these Estimates or of the size of the Regular Army. I understand a Motion is shortly to be moved for a very great reduction, and we shall hear presently the reasons which are to be given. But I intended in any case to rise and to say I am quite sure no one impartially reviewing our commitments in all parts of the world, unless prepared to advocate our leaving some portion of our Empire, could possibly call these Estimates too high. All those who have considered this question must really face the facts, and if it is a fact, as it is, that we have land frontiers of something like 19,000 miles, and if it also is a fact that we are more or less controlling in greater or less degree something like a quarter of the world's habitable surface, and if it is also conceded, as it must be, that on many of these frontiers, some of them stretching for thousands of miles, there are turbulent tribes whom it is our absolute duty, whatever view we take, how-even anxious we may be to preserve peace, to prevent from coming in and slaughtering the people whose lives we are responsible for, you either have to say, "We are going to clear out," or you have to say, "These Army Estimates are the least compatible with out safety." Indeed I doubt whether he have not cut down our Army Estimates too far. When we consider certain special danger spots, for instance, the North West frontier of India, Egypt, the Sudan, East Africa, to say nothing of many other places where dangers might quite easily assail us, however peaceful we may be, I wonder whether we have not perhaps carried economy on armed forces too far.

The result of the War with regard to Great Britain has been to leave her in a different position from any other Power. With regard to the sea, there is no doubt that the destruction of the German Fleet relieves us of great responsibility, but with regard to land warfare no such result has accrued, but quite the contrary, for we did not build up our Army against the German menace before the War, and the fact that the Central Powers have had their military forces either destroyed or enormously reduced has not really reduced our liabilities. What we did when we thought the German menace was coming, rightly or wrongly—I was myself largely responsible—was not appreciably to increase the size of our Army, though it is true during the time I was responsible there was some increase in men and an increase of a million or two in money, but greatly to increase its readiness, and that is where the cost came in. As a consequence now that the German menace has ceased we are still committed to all the responsibilities we have had before plus the responsibilities which have fallen upon us by the Mandates which have been given us by the League of Nations. So it is a fact that our responsibilities are now greater than they were in August, 1914. Thus it would be a rash man who would say these Estimates either in men or money were too high. But when we come to consider how the money is spent and how the Army is composed I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman and the Under-Secretary and the Army Council. I say the lesson of the great War, which just means the lesson of modern war, has not been learned. I say that, though we know very well that the Chief of the Staff and those who act with him fully appreciate the lessons of the great War, just for reasons of economy they have been unable to carry them out. I have appealed to two of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors. I appealed to his predecessor, who then as now was rather somnolent when I addressed him, and I could not get him to agree. Now I appeal to the Secretary of State to ask his Council certain very definite questions and to say this. If we cannot afford to spend any more money, at least let us spend it in the best way. Let us increase our fire power. Let us realise what every war has taught, that it is fire power that wins battles, and throwing men into battle without fire power is the road to disaster. If you look through history in every case it is superior weapons and superior fire power that wins the day when other things have been anything like equal, and yet will it be believed that after all our experience we have a less proportion of machine guns, I am informed, than any army on the Continent, although clearly, being the richest country—we are still very poor, but we are much the richest—we ought to have far and away the greatest proportion.

5.0 P.M.

Let us recall one or two facts. During the great War there were occasions known to many hon. Members whom I see all round me. The Under-Secretary of State himself must have seen these things happen. When not sufficient fire power was employed, notably overhead machine gun fire, casualties arose on an unbelievable scale. I myself have been standing in the front line and have seen battalions go over the top not properly supported by overhead fire, 26 officers and just under 1,000 men, and within a quarter of an hour I have seen with my own eyes—it was my turn to go next—25 out of the 26 officers and all but 31 of the men mown down and practically all killed. Many of my hon. and gallant Friends have seen similar things, but that was the most dramatic I have ever seen. Again and again at the Somme battles, again and again at Passchendaele, I have seen similar things. Such is the effect of fire power. I hope the Committee will forgive me if I tell them the reverse of the picture from personal experience, no credit being due to me, but rather to those who were with me. I got permission just before the great German attack to conduct an attack on a new principle, with enormously increased covering machine gun fire. I was engaged in writing a report on it when the great German attack came in 1918, and naturally we were all so involved that I have never finished the report till this day. The attack which I got leave to deliver was on a front of nearly half a mile, a much longer front than the attack I have just described. The intention was to penetrate through the enemy's defences to nearly a mile behind, and then to come straight back and kill or capture everybody within that sector. The operation was a complete success. Every man in the opposing garrison was either killed or captured, and I ask the Committee to believe, unbelievable as it may seem, that the total casualties—and the garrison facing us was the Prussian Guard—were six men slightly and one man severely wounded. There would be about 800 men in the garrison, and there were actually employed in the operation 460. I had got permission to make that attack, having found out by the fact of being a Member of this House when I was home on leave that we had a practically unlimited supply of small arms ammunition. I got permission to deliver this attack off my own bat, and during those critical eight minutes we fired off 186,000 rounds of small arms ammunition. In the whole operation, which lasted an hour, we fired over a million. Within this wonderful box of fire those brave men—and they were faced, by the Prussian Guard—operated with practically no casualties. No man was able to lift his head because of the shower of lead that was going over the heads of our own men. I give those instances as showing the astonishing difference in the loss of life which follows from using the frail human bodies of men with insufficient support and from using to the utmost what science can give us, and, the most important thing of all, even including tanks and poison gas, is the machine gun.

I plead with the Secretary of State for War to go to his Council and say, "Your establishments now are similar to, or not very dissimilar from, what they were before the War. It is quite clear to me that, whatever else is right, that must be wrong, because we learned in the War by the bitterest experience that we ought not to have the same proportion as we then had." We ought to increase enormously our machine guns. In this I know I have the support of all my hon. Friends in all quarters of the House. During the War we formed machine-gun battalions, and we formed machine-gun squadrons with the cavalry, which I think was one of the most useful things in the War. They have all been disbanded. It is true there has been a slight increase in the proportion of machine guns, but in nothing like the ratio it ought to be. A battalion as we now see it is composed very much as it was in the days of. Waterloo. True, it has machine guns with it, but nothing like enough. It may be that the Secretary of State's advisers will say, "Oh, well, we shall soon be having an automatic rifle, and then every man will be a machine gunner." That automatic rifle has been coming for a long time, but it has not come yet. When it comes, I believe it will be found that this rifle will be more difficult to handle, and I believe that light and heavy machine guns are better. If it be necessary for the Regular Army, I believe it to be necessary for the Territorial Force too. I think all our forces should be reviewed with a view to increasing their fire-power and increasing every possible mechanical aid which will lessen our own losses, and. I say it bluntly, although I am afraid it will sound brutal to some of my Friends above the Gangway, to increase our enemies' losses if they are so rash as to declare war on us.

I have said on previous occasions that we are a peace-loving nation. I think it will be found, if my hon. Friend looks back in recent history, that we have been a very peaceful nation, but when we go to war we are a very warlike nation. When next somebody declares war on us, I want us to have the best chance which can be obtained, by increasing by every means mechanical aids and reducing the risks to human beings whose frail bodies have been the means of making so many futile attacks in the past.

Perhaps it will not be inappropriate if at this stage I venture to put forward the claims of Woolwich, which supplies many of the guns and other things the hon. Gentleman has been referring to this afternoon. Woolwich always looks upon the advent of a new Secretary of State for War with a considerable amount of curiosity and a great deal of interest, and in the case of the appointment of the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary of State, with a great deal of hope. I note that, in the Memorandum which has just been circulated by the right hon. Gentleman, he makes a very important announcement so far as Woolwich is concerned. On page 12 he refers to the re-arrangement of the ordnance depots and he says there is a scheme which is contemplated which will permit of the removal of all stores from Woolwich Dockyard and of the entire abandonment of another large-arms store depot. He goes on to say that much of the work now done, if the depot were closed, would require to be done elsewhere in future, and he refers to the saving which will be effected thereby. The workers of Woolwich are anxious to know exactly what the right hon. Gentleman means by this announcement, particularly as far as it concerns themselves. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, or the Financial Secretary, or whoever is to reply, whether he can state more fully what exactly he has in contemplation in this matter. I am one of those who believe that it would be a good thing if arrangements could be made whereby Woolwich would not be wholly dependent for employment on the dockyards and arsenal. It is an unfortunate thing that the employment at Woolwich has to be regulated by great wars and peacetime and all the inevitable consequences that rise from them. If it is contemplated, as was suggested to the late Government, that parts of the dockyards now occupied by the authorities are to be vacated and certain sites on the river are to be permitted to be used by private firms, whereby factories' can be erected and other employment obtained in Woolwich, I am sure the great majority of my constituents would welcome that change. I do not know if that is what the right hon. Gentleman has in view, but I want to ask him, so far as the removal of the stores from the Woolwich Dockyard is concerned, whether he can give me any information as to what is exactly contemplated, and whether he will have due regard, as I hope he will, to the position of the men now employed there, and that it will not mean that they will have to go to other parts of the country and leave their homes. That is a matter of great importance to them, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give me some assurance on that point and if possible make a statement on the position.

There is another matter to which I should like to ask the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, and which I know he has personally considered lately. That is the claim for an increase in wages of the workmen in certain of the establishments in the London area to whom the reduction of 16s. 6d. a week effected in the engineering trade in August and September, 1922, applied. I have had the privilege of attending many deputations to the War Office in this connection. I went to the late Secretary of State for War on this particular matter. The upshot was that, almost in the last days of the late Government, the War Office offered arbitration. At the same time, as the late Financial Secretary to the War Office will remember, the War Office expressed the view that in the arbitration they would not take up an antagonistic attitude, but would treat the claims of the men sympathetically so far as the tribunal was concerned. That offer of arbitration, I regret to say, was refused by the men. I think it would have been wiser if they had accepted it. When the claim again came up, the present Secretary of State for War had to give a decision. The decision he arrived at was simply to make an addition to the salaries of certain of these workmen of 3s. a week. In the result, as I think he will agree, a very large number of men, even with this addition, are barely able to subsist at the present time. As he knows, I have ventured again to call attention to the claims of these very badly-paid men to see if he would be prepared to do anything for them. I notice, with some admiration, the answers he gives to some of the questions, particularly the questions put to him by hon. Gentlemen behind him, as to whether he thinks the allowance he now makes permits of a living wage for these men. I noticed the other day that he said, in reply to one question, that he was not called upon, at any rate on that occasion, to give a reply. Perhaps this is a more favourable opportunity, and I therefore put strongly to the Secretary of State for War the claims, of these men. I think they would have been much better if they had agreed to arbitration as even they have been with the present Secretary of State for War.

I notice that he the other day went to Woolwich and visited the Arsenal and various important centres there, and I also noted with considerable interest that in the admirable speech which he made when he introduced these Estimates, he referred to the very excellent work going on at Woolwich. We in Woolwich appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's admiration, but we would like him, if he can, to express it in a little more practical form on the present occasion. Therefore, I press upon the right hon. Gentleman to make some further statement on this matter this afternoon. I do not think he will say that these men are receiving an adequate amount. If he will compare the amount which they receive with the amount that they could get under Poor Law relief, he will find that there is very little difference. That is not a very creditable thing for the War Office at the present time.

There is another matter to which I would call attention, and in regard to which I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman recently. I refer to the pension scheme for employés at Woolwich. That scheme has been for a long time before the various Secretaries of State for War. At one time a Committee was set up to see whether a proper scheme could be formulated whereby the employés when their time came to leave the Arsenal would have an adequate amount of money on which to retire and live reasonably for the rest of their lives. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day whether he would consider this scheme favourably, and he told me that he had the matter under consideration. I then asked whether he would receive a deputation from various hon. Members in this House who are interested in the question, and many of whose constituents are interested in the question, and he replied that he thought it was an actuarial matter. I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman too much in regard to receiving a deputation, because I know that he is working very hard.

At the time that I gave the answer to the hon. Member it was, inevitably, very short. Since the hon. Member put the question, I have caused the whole mass of information to be collated. When it is collated and we can get a general bearing of things, we shall not have the slightest objection to receiving a deputation.

I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend, and I am sure that at the appropriate stage he will receive that deputation. I agree that he must look into the whole mass of information at the War Office in order to ascertain the position. At any time that he likes to appoint my colleagues and myself will be only too glad to confer with him upon what I think would be a very good thing for the employés at the Arsenal. It would give them a great deal more security and I think it would attract to the Arsenal the type of workmen which the right hon. Gentleman desires to have there in future.

Dismissals are still taking place at the Arsenal, particularly of men of 60 years of age, and other discharges are taking place for special reasons. It is particularly hard upon the older men that they have to be discharged at the present time, and if the right hon. Gentleman would look into the matter I should be glad. He may say, "It is the rule, and rules have to be obeyed," but I should like him to consider whether he could not make some alteration. Many of these men, speaking entirely from the financial aspect, will have to go elsewhere to obtain another form of payment. It will be a good thing if he will look into the whole question and see whether a large number of these experienced men could not be retained. I have seen many of these men; they are skilled workmen, and there is no sign about them of any reason for their retirement. I put a question to the Financial Secretary the other day, and he said that the discharges from the Army Ordnance Department are necessitated by reduction of work, and that in selecting men for discharge due regard will be paid to length of service.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see what can be done to obtain more work for Woolwich. The right hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-Gemeral Seely) has just made a speech which interested and affected the Committee very much said which bears upon this question. These men are entitled to special consideration at the hands of the Government. I am afraid that many hon. Members do not realise the position of Woolwich. Men from all over the world were attracted to Woolwich and were begged to go there during the War. They came there with their families and had to settle down, and now they cannot get work elsewhere. They came at the request of the Government and they are entitled to consideration. There is a special case for these men who, having been invited to come to Woolwich by the Government, are now left stranded. In asking the right hon. Gentleman to take special measures to bring more work to the Arsenal, I would recall the days when the present Prime Minister contested East Woolwich. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) came down at that time. The Prime Minister made great promises to the men and women of Woolwich. He said a great deal more about Woolwich than I have said and praised the people far more than I have ever praised them. One of the things he held out to them was that if he ever got into power and had the ordering of things in this country he would have what he called a great peace factory at Woolwich. He suggested that the time would come when there would be no need for armaments and a great peace factory would arise where, I suppose, plough-shares and things like that would be made.

I beg the Secretary of State for War to consult the Prime Minister and see whether he has any real, practical scheme to put forward. These promises of his were taken quite seriously by the people of Woolwich. It is true they rejected the Prime Minister, but a large number of them voted for him, and today they are looking to see whether the Secretary for War in a Government presided over by the present Prime Minister will do anything towards erecting this great peace factory and turning the Arsenal, or part of it—I would not like to see all of it go—into a great machine for making useful things for the country. It is very important at the present time that the scheme of the Prime Minister should be put into operation, because large numbers of discharges are taking place there. I hope the Secretary for War will be able to give some assurance to this very important part of the country which is suffering very severely, and that through his advent to office there will be some prospect for a very large number of deserving people, not only that they will obtain employment, but better wages and better conditions. At a later stage when the Ordnance Vote comes up I shall refer to a few matters of detail.

I agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey (Viscount Ednam) that the red tunic and the white belt will increase recruiting. If we have universal white belts, some barrack room wit will be composing a new song for Mr. George Robey to sing at the music halls, entitled "The hours I spent with thee, dear belt." I rose particularly to call attention to the Army Chaplain's Department and to inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman has secured the present opinion of the Chaplain's Department as to compulsory military church parades. I do not raise this question in any spirit of antagonism to the very fine work done by the Army padre. Those of us who slaw the padres from the point of view of the ranker or of those in charge of the rankers know perfectly well that in the war period many padres did very fine work. The compulsory church parade undermines the real work which the padre ought to do and is an enemy of the religious influence of the padre among the troops.

I can quite understand the feeling of pride in the mind of every commanding officer when he has a full-dress parade, and the troops swing off to follow the band, especially if the commanding officer happens to be a Scotsman and the regiment is swinging along with the kilts. The feelings of the men in the ranks and of the commanding officer on Sunday morning are, however, very different. There are more punishments doled out on Sunday morning than on any other morning in the week by the company officers. [HON. MEMBEES: "No!"] Some hon. Members may differ, but that is my war experience; I do not know whether it is the same in the peace-time Army. I am sure the padres will agree with me that there is more unlimited military vocabulary used on Sunday morning in connection with church parade than on any morning in the week. In connection with the full-dress parade there is inspection by the section leader, the lance-corporal, the platoon sergeant, the platoon officer, the company officer, the adjutant, and the commanding officer himself. They are not fit to hold their respective offices unless they can find some fault, one after the other.

The feeling in the ranks on Sunday morning is expressed sotto voce, but in the barrack room afterwards it is expressed in no uncertain terms. I am sure that the Chaplain who wishes to maintain his spiritual influence over the troops has no desire to have that influence exercised compulsorily in connection with the compulsory church parade. The right hon. Gentleman would be doing a good thing if he abolished compulsory church parade. Every padre worth his salt would be able to get the men to a voluntary church parade. By abolishing the compulsory parade the right hon. Gentleman would really further the cause of religion. I hope he will ascertain the present feeling in the Chaplain's Department in regard to this question.

I think the Committee will agree that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) made the chief point in this Debate when he asked the question: has our Army learned the lesson of the Great War? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Loughborough (Brigadier-General Spears) before going into Committee of Supply made a most interesting speech about that, and received what I thought a rather inadequate reply from the Under-Secretary who had only a short time in which to reply. It seems to me that this is a most important point. The right hon. Gentleman said that our responsibilities have increased and that our Army has not increased since before the War. It is therefore urgently necessary that the Army should be in the highest state of efficiency and should have profited from the lessons of the War. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned machine guns particularly. I would also ask the Secretary for State to deal with the question of tanks, which was brought up the other day by the hon. and gallant Member for Loughborough. In these days of highly efficient fire power it is almost impossible to get your men on to an objective unless they have got some means of protection. I would suggest that there should be every mechanical means that could be devised in order to bring our men on to their objectives in face of the tremendous machine gun and other fire with which we have to cope in these days. I know that the Secretary of State must have spent most of his time since he entered the War Office in looking after Estimates and financial business. When that is over I trust that he will look deeply into the subject: have we learned the lessons of the Great War?

I would also ask: Has the Secretary of State definitely made up his mind to pro- ceed with the recommendations of the Anderson Committee? I think that it was about a reduction in pay. I notice, from a Memorandum which accompanies the Estimates, that the recruiting is short by about 5,500 men. That is very serious, particularly having regard to the large number of unemployed persons. It has always been the rule that when there has been a depreciation in trade recruiting figures have gone up. What is the reason, therefore, with this enormous depreciation in trade, there has been such a decrease in recruiting? The explanation is to be found, surely, in the fear that pay is going to be reduced I note that the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor came to a decision on this point. I hope that it will not bind the right hon. Gentleman, having regard to the effect which it has had on recruiting. I hope that he will reconsider the matter and, before he decides to lower the pay of the commissioned ranks, will delay taking action until he has had time to reconsider the whole matter. The hon. and gallant Member for Loughborough asked a question the other day about the War Office. The Army has been cut down and it has been reduced again this year, but the figures for the War Office still remain very high. Why this is, it is hard to understand. It creates considerable feeling to think that the numbers of officers and men have been reduced to such an extent while the staff at the War Office remains intact. I hope that there will be some information given on that point.

I asked the other day why a battalion was still kept on the island of Jersey. I was told that it was because there are barracks there and there were no barracks available in this country. With all due respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I can hardly believe that there are no barracks available in this country. I understand that there may be some saving, even if not a great one, by having the battalion kept in this country. Obviously, a great many sea journeys would be saved if this could be done. I would like some more information on that point. I understood from the Minister of Labour the other day that the Departments were being asked for any schemes which might help to employ people. Does the War Office contemplate either building new barracks or restoring barracks, especially at Aldershot and in London, which have been for years in a very bad condition? I know some cavalry barracks in Aldershot which have scarcely been touched since about the year 1850, and which are in a disgraceful condition. I submit that matter to the Secretary for State with the suggestion that these barracks should be renovated or new ones should be built.

I wish to endorse every word that fell from my right hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) on the subject of fire power and of mechanicalising the Army. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for East Hull (Mr. Lumley) for having underlined what I said the other day on this subject. Last week it was proved conclusively that we are very much behind every other army in the matter of mechanicalisation. If at a given moment our Regular Army had to meet a well equipped enemy, it would labour under the most serious disadvantages, which, of course, would be trans lated either into disaster or into quite undue and unnecessary loss of life. I have no doubt that the Minister will note the facts and endeavour to remedy the deficiency. There is not much good in over-emphasising how very much behindhand the Army is, and how very serious that fact is in the case of a very small army such as ours, but I hope that the Secretary of State will take into the most serious consideration that, however important it is to improve and strengthen the Army in the matter of weapons and armaments, and however important may be the mechanicalising of certain branches, all this is of little use unless there is a definite policy in this matter. Once you have a definite policy, once you have visualised the way in which you will employ the Army, then you can start building up your Army with a view to fulfilling the objective which you have set yourself.

For instance, what is the War Office conception of the use of infantry in modern warfare? Is it, or is it not, accepted that on all but the rarest occasions infantry will not be used to assault positions, but will be used, with the help of numerous machine guns, only to defend positions or occupy positions from which the enemy have been driven by artillery, aeroplanes and tanks? If this is the conception, the problem of moving your infantry rapidly forward, so as to take advantage of the effect made by what may be called the attacking-arms, must be considered, and it probable that some sort of caterpillar lorry capable of transporting infantry rapidly will have to be studied. The right hon. Gentleman, no doubt, is aware that tests of such machines are being carried out on the Continent to-day. They are testing machines which are capable of running on wheels on roads and on caterpillars across country. I look forward to hearing from the right hon. Gentleman that something on these lines is being studied for use with our own infantry.

I would like also once more to emphasise how very inferior our cavalry is in fire power as compared with French cavalry. A French cavalry division can put into line 3,480 men and a British division 3,150. The English division has 72 heavy machine guns, 111 light machine guns and 18 13-pounders. The French division has 96 heavy machine guns, 315 light machine guns, 192 grenade-throwing rifles, 3 mortars, 36 37-millimetre guns and 24 75-millimetre guns. There is no comparison whatever between the fire power of the two units. The advantage is enormously in favour of the French division. Moreover, no one will dispute that the 75-millimetre is a far better weapon than our own 13-pounder. We are far behindhand, and the French cavalry division would stand far more chance than we of achieving its objective, with less loss of life than ours. Incidentally, the figures which I have given do not correspond exactly with those given by the Minister in answer to a question on this subject recently, but I take it that in his answer he took into account anti-aircraft machine guns, which I have disregarded in both units as they are no use whatever against infantry. In reckoning the number of men, I have taken the number who can be put into the line. As to the number of men in the line, compared with the total number of rifles, it might be worth while if the right hon. Gentleman would look into the question as to why it is we can only put into the line 3,150 men out of a division of about 9,000, while the French division, which has only 6,000 men can put 3,450 men into the line. It is true that it is necessary to have more men for baggage, etc., in Colonial warfare than for European war- fare, but then why is our cavalry the only branch in the Service that has not got two establishments, one for Europe and another for the Colonies?

I am certain that it is the hope of the right hon. Gentleman that we shall not be for a long time involved in any warlike operations. That hope is shared by everyone. I am also convinced that should such an unfortunate situation arise he would not wish to have any responsibility for our men suffering from any disadvantage which could be translated into unnecessary loss of life. That is why I urge that he will see that our Army not only has adequate fire power but that the right sort of policy is evolved. I do not wish to labour too much the disabilities under which we are at present, nor do I expect the right hon. Gentleman to disclose any policy which he thinks had better be kept secret. All I wish to know is whether there is such a policy and whether he is satisfied that it is adequate and sufficient in every respect? In any case, facts such as these do not remain secret very long, because they always come out at manœuvres. I venture to urge once more that, not only is it essential that the Regular Army should be properly equipped, but it is of the most urgent importance that the Territorial Army should be mechanicalised and have a sufficiency of fire power. To ask them to fight without this would be a crime, and to have a Territorial Army which we cannot use because it is not properly armed is a waste of money.

I do not propose to criticise these Estimates because, as one of those who were partly responsible for framing them, I am very glad to find that the Secretary of State in his Memorandum admits that they have been framed with due regard to efficiency and economy. I would like to emphasise what the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) said, that we have really cut down the fighting services to the minimum, and that there should be no talk of further reducing them. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman also laid great emphasis on the necessity of further fire power, as did the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken. The right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight gave us a very interesting experience of his own during the War, and I am sure that due regard will be given by the Secretary of State to those remarks. But I would remind the House that, after all, civilian Ministers are advised by the General Staff, and I am sure that if the General Staff had asked for further fire power, the civilian side of the War Office would not have refused to give it. When the party of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and the last speaker were in power, they cut down the fire power of the Army. We are glad, therefore, that they now realise how necessary it is to keep the Army up to its fullest strength.

I wish to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War one or two questions Can he give the House an assurance that the preference policy of the Army Council in regard to contracts given to the home manufacturer, the home producer, and to the Colonial contractor, in relation to War Office purchases, will be continued by the present Government? I do not want to press the hon. and gallant Gentleman to give us the details of preference, but I would like to be assured that the policy which was followed while the Conservatives were in power is to be maintained. Especially I ask him to see whether he cannot this year purchase in this country all the hay and corn that is required. We hear much of the depressed state of agriculture. I went fully into this matter last year, and I can say that the extra-cost is very small. Such a policy would mean the spending of a considerable amount of money among our own farmers. I think we would get a better supply, and such an arrangement would encourage the farming industry to feel that they were being called upon, as far as possible, to supply the needs of the Army.

There is another point, which I will not press if it is inconvenient. Are negotiations still going on with regard to Deptford cattle market? There has been considerable feeling in the House that one thing or the other should be done in this matter. The question which the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) raised in regard to the giving up of part of the Arsenal at Woolwich for private enterprise, really hangs on the question of Deptford market. If the negotiations are of a delicate nature, I do not wish to press for an answer, but I would like to be assured that the matter is being given urgent attention. Another matter is the pension scheme for the workers at the Arsenal. I am glad to hear that the Under-Secretary of State is going into that matter. I am certain that if a pension scheme can be arranged it will remove much discontent; it will give a great deal of confidence to the men working there, and will remove from the War Office the constant oases of hardship of men who, having given up the greater part of their life to work at the Arsenal, are compelled to retire without a pension. I know that this was a very difficult scheme, because the money necessary to start it on a satisfactory basis could not be found, and the contributions from the men would be a very great strain upon them. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can find some way of solving this difficulty, I am sure it would receive the support of Members on this side of the House.

I want to intervene at this point in order to reply to one or two of the questions that have been raised. I do not intend to deal with matters that relate to finance, contracts and such things; they will be dealt with by the Financial Secretary later on. I wish to deal with one or two matters raised particularly by the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight and by the hon. and gallant Member for Loughorough (Brigadier-General Spears). They seem to me to be labouring under a certain amount of misapprehension with regard to the present position of the Army. Their line was rather to compare the British Army with the French Army. While it is desirable generally to compare the institutions of one country with those of another, the comparisons must not be pressed too hard; they must be made with consideration of all the circumstances of what one country is like, or what another is like, of what are our responsibilities and what are French responsibilities. Our Army is not at present intended as a great Continental Army going into a European war. We have to consider what is the particular purpose of our Army. Our Army is essentially, in the main, a nucleus Army; it is there to support the various garrisons we have, and our various commitments, all over the world.

Take the point of mechanicalisation. It is a very important one. It is not true that we are falling behind at all in this matter. You have to consider the purpose for which our troops are being raised, whether they are to be used for garrisons here or garrisons there. It is not the fact that we are now forming a great army that is going straight away to a European war. I noticed that in his review of fire power the right hon. Member for the Isle of Wight went wide in his figures, because he was looking at our peace establishments and not considering what our establishments would be in the event of war. I think he said that, with regard to machine guns, infantry battalions were still in the position they occupied before the War. That is not correct.

I do not think that my hon. and gallant Friend heard what I said. I said that, of course, there were additions to machine guns, but nothing like enough to make up for the loss of the Machine Gun Corps, which was disbanded at the end of the War.

I accept the right hon. Gentleman's correction, but nevertheless he is mistaken. The divisional strength in machine guns is 25 per cent. greater than at the close of the War. In addition to that there are, of course, the Lewis guns. The question of fire power has not been neglected, nor has the question of tanks. It is quite impossible to give any details about what we are doing with regard to mechanicalisation and tanks, but I believe that, as far as inventiveness goes, we are keeping our position very well. I might add to the information I gave last week. A question was asked as to why we talked about mechanicalising first line units, and what we were doing with the Territorials. The mechanicalisation of non-divisional artillery of the Territorial Army is receiving careful attention. We are trying to find a tractor suitable for military use and adaptable to commercial use. Trials are being carried out with such a tractor and cinematograph photographs of it hauling commercial loads are to be displayed at Wembley Exhibition.

With regard to the non-divisional artillery of the Regular Army, steps are being taken with a view to replacing the horse entirely by mechanical means. It is not possible to say how far the results of our experiments will reach. I cannot go into more detail on the question of mechani- calisation. The hon. and gallant Member for Loughborough made a comparison of the French War Office staff and the British War Office staff, and pointed out that we had a larger staff than the French Army, although the French Army was much larger than ours. The same point was made by another hon. Member. That, again, is a comparison which looks all right on paper until you examine the organisation of the two Armies. As a matter of fact, the French Army is more decentralised than ours. In these; comparisons you have to know exactly with what you are dealing. Things that are called by one name in one Army are called by another name in a different Army, and it is difficult to get an absolutely straight comparison.

6.0 P.M.

We are endeavouring to keep down the staff at the War Office, but it is only fair to point out that while some hon. Members make a point about the large staff at the War Office, hon. Members sitting on the same benches get up and say, "Do not dismiss anyone; do not dismiss ex-soldiers." We have to steer a course between the sympathetic and the economical, and I think that we are doing our best in that matter. The hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Lumley) raised a question about Jersey, asked why we kept troops in Jersey and rather complained of our answer. The hon. Member went on to point out that some of our barrack accommodation here is very bad. That is precisely the point. As a matter of fact, we have practically no surplus barrack accommodation in this country. We have to bear in mind the eventualities of troops coming back from abroad, and that we have troops in unsuitable hut barracks at the present time. What is required is a gradual programme of barrack construction and to make some of the barracks which are really bad fit for troops to live in. A point has also been raised with regard to Army chaplains, but I think that is a question which can be better raised on the Army Act. Speaking personally, I have considerable sympathy with the point of view expressed with regard to church parades, but I entirely disagree with what has been said regarding the results of punishment. Points have also been raised with regard to the Territorial Army, but these were, I think, mainly accountancy points which will be dealt with by she Financial Secretary. Reference was made to the question of commissions in the Regular Army for Territorial officers, and a request was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. Nail) for the exact percentage. I am sorry I cannot give the exact percentage. It must depend to a large extent on the circumstances of the time.

Adverting once more to the points raised by my hon. Friends below the Gangway, I want to assure them that we are considering very carefully all suggestions made and that the War Office is alive to the military lessons of the last War, as I hope the country is alive to the general lessons of the last War. As long as we have an Army it will be our duty to make that Army efficient and to see that our men are properly protected. I agree with the point put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight in that illustration which he gave of troops going over the top and being shot down because they had not proper protection. We are quite alive to the desirability of not exposing troops unnecessarily, and I can assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that, as far as I am concerned, I believe we are not behind in the matter of science and mechanicalisation. The Army Council are fully alive to these ideas. There seemed to be an undercurrent running through the speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman indicating that he thought the Army Council had minds which were out of date. I have not seen any sign of that myself and I do not believe it for a moment. The Army Council are fully awake as to the lessons of the War, and I believe such changes as are desirable will be made. I would point' out this also. Whatever changes are made, whatever armaments are put in force, must be in relation to the position of international affairs and the policy of this country. The policy of this country is a policy of peace, and if we are not making engagements which contemplate our entering into a European war on a large scale, we have to look upon the whole of our preparations as part of a gradual scheme. When you introduce improvements, you need to be quite sure that they are improvements and that they will not have to be scrapped again in a year or so, because they have been made too hastily. Every step in the organisation of the Army, whether on the mechanical side or on the accounting side, will be taken with the utmost care and after every experiment has been made in order to see that we are not taking a false step which will have to be retraced.

My Noble Friend the Member for Hornsey (Viscount Ednam) raised the question of clasps, which I presume will be dealt with by the Financial Secretary, but to which I should like to refer for a moment. Clasps were given to the Navy, and I believe sanctioned by the Crown, two or three years ago. The clasps for the Army, I understand, have been recently sanctioned, and the reason for the delay in granting them is the expense. By a series of questions in this House, I was able to gather that not even where the men themselves are willing to pay for these clasps and battle-bars will they be allowed to have them. If the country is so poor—and I admit it is poor—that it cannot pay for the clasps and battle-bare, it seems a reasonable and legitimate way of granting both to those men who have earned them, that they should be allowed if they wish to pay for the said bars and clasps. Each individual clasp is of course a very small expense, and it is only when we come to the millions which would be required that the Treasury are seeking to avoid what they look upon as an expense. I am entirely with my Noble Friend on the question of the red tunic. I have not the least doubt if we could reintroduce the red tunic into the Army, especially with the comparatively large pay which soldiers are now getting, there would be no talk about a lack of recruits.

The question of the pay of officers and men and the subject matter of the Anderson Committee is a very much more troublesome matter. The officers were aware that they would have to submit to certain reductions at a certain period, but no such reduction was mentioned to the men. It may be argued that there can be no contract with the Crown, but that is not an argument which any self-respecting Government such as sits on those Benches opposite would advance. I do not think the pay of the men now serving is in the slightest danger of being changed. I do not think any Government would propose to do so, and that men who enlist now should be given a less wage than the men alongside whom they are working, is a proposal more suitable to comic opera than to practical politics. You cannot get men who are doing the same work and taking the same risks to accept payment at different rates. That would immediately lead to considerable trouble. I listened with great respect and interest to the words which fell from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely), and from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Loughborough (Brigadier-General Spears). I paid special attention to the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight, and I ask the War Office to pay great attention to his words, because he speaks from great experience and great knowledge, and his advice should not, on any account, be passed over or set aside. The expense of the Army is no doubt great. We have got to see that it is not wasteful. Any expense that is not wasteful and is necessary can be easily justified. We have to show that the expenditure on the Army is neither wasteful nor unnecessary.

The Under-Secretary referred to the question of sending troops to Jersey and Guernsey. I have combated that view for a considerable period. A battalion of infantry is sent to Guernsey. Immediately it lands one company at least is sent to Alderney, and the remaining companies are scattered about Guernsey in the different barracks. The islands are not defensible by land troops. With one scattered battalion, there can be no emulation and no standard for the men. There are only a few companies of a regiment there, and they must deteriorate. Liquor is cheaper than here—though not so cheap as it was—so is tobacco; there is no sport or amusement unless the possibility of smoking oneself silly and drinking oneself into much the same condition can be called sport or amusement. I will relate what happened a month or two ago. Forty men stationed on one of the islands were shown to be fit to go to India. They were given leave to go home before they departed. They crossed the Channel to Southampton, and went on to their various homes in Yorkshire, Cumberland and elsewhere. Their leave up, they were brought back to the Channel Island, and it was then decided that they should leave for their port of embarkation in 10 days, and they were again sent back to the mainland. These 40 men made three journeys across the Channel, where one would have sufficed. They might have been quartered at Portsmouth, where there is a large amount of barrack accommodation and they would not have had to cross the Channel at all. The expense to the Exchequer of these three journeys, although it only applies to 40 men, is a waste. The Under-Secretary replied to a question on the subject of barracks and said there were barracks in Jersey. There are, and I must admit they are poor barracks—so poor that the War Office are now going to spend a considerable amount of money upon them and that money is waste. They are going to build quarters for warrant officers, improve the main barracks, put in central heating and electric light, and they are going to do that on the plea that there are no barracks in England.

Take Portsmouth as an example. I refer to it because I know it better, than almost any other town. It used to be a Lieutenant-General's Command. It is now a Colonel's Command, and the consequence is that all those barracks which were suitable for a Lieutenant-General's Command are now empty. They have caretakers of course, and they must be kept in order. Money must be wasted on them, but as I say, they are empty, while we are going to rebuild and refit and improve the barracks in these three little islands where the troops are of no use whatever and where they must deteriorate in quality. What is the real object of sending the troops to these islands? It must be remembered that it is only within comparatively recent years that regular troops were sent to the islands. In the old days our Governments were far too wise for that. They said to the islanders, "Defend yourselves" and the islanders did it. They resisted in the past 800 years six attacks by the French on their own and at their own expense. Now some Government comes in and wants to send regiments to the islands—a waste of good money—and in addition to that, although they are dead against the Capital Levy, they propose to tax the islanders, who are unrepresented in this country and to make a capital levy upon them. So much for consistency—more especially in the War Office. What is the object of sending the troops there? It is this only. There is an officer in command of the troops, and he, like every other man, wishes to glorify his own appointment—very naturally—and he wishes to surround himself with a large staff. Therefore he insists upon the militia having a large staff paid by the War Office, quite unnecessarily, and he also has a large staff of his own, so that he may be when he trots out—it does not matter who the particular officer is—surrounded by a certain number of men in uniform.

As I have just said, the Portsmouth Command was a lieutenant-general's and is now a colonel's. The commanding officer has a staff, but, remember, the staff at Portsmouth is a useful staff. We will take Aldershot, if you like, or Woolwich. They are in the centre of affairs; they are not growing rusty; they are doing their work; they are not hidden away in two or three little islands, a hundred miles from this coast, doing nothing whatever. I say a general likes to have a staff around him. The officer in command of the troops in Jersey and Guernsey is not allowed an A.D.C., but during the War, when there was no regiment in the islands, and when every sound man had gone to the War, because there were no conscientious objectors in either of those islands, and do not forget it—

You were an alien, and you deserved what you got! During the War the general immediately had an A.D.C. with him, a staff captain, and he was paid £500 a year by the War Office—pure and absolute waste. My point is that while there are barracks, as I have shown there are, in this country, it is waste of material and personnel to send men a sea journey to those three islands where they are not needed in any way, and where they could not defend the islands if any foe were foolish enough to attack them. I hope the Financial Secretary will look into the matter and not be entirely guided by the military opinions which may obtain in the War Office. Let him look at it from the civilian point of view, and from the point of view of the waste of money by this means.

I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by 150,000 men.

I rise to move the Amendment in the form in which it appears on the Paper, but there is no illusion in the minds of hon. Members as to what is meant by the Amendment. The Amendment is a challenge not only to the Government, not only to this House; it is a challenge to the whole idea that you can get any kind of security that you value by the use of armed force. Under those circumstances, it is not necessary, if, as we have heard this afternoon, we have learned the lessons of the recent War, for us to have 160,000 men in our Army. If it were true that we could get any kind of security by the use of armed force for the things that we hold dear, then I want to say that the number of men that are being asked for at the present time is infinitely too low to obtain that security. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members opposite agree with that statement, and I think they are perfectly right and logical, and reasonable. If we believe that this country and everything in this country that we hold dear can be defended by armed force, then we ought to have an Army that is big enough, well-enough equipped, highly skilled enough, not only to meet any army of any nation that might be brought against us, but any combination of armies that might be brought against us, and that means that, instead of having 161,000 men, we ought to have the whole of our man power in this country trained and organised in order that they might take their share when the national emergency arises. That means that you must have military conscription, but it means more than that. It means that if you are going to use armed force to obtain security in any kind of national emergency, you not only have to have your soldiers, but you have to have your economic organisation, too, and that means that you have not only to have conscription for all your men militarily, but that every man and woman will also have to be conscripted from an industrial standpoint, in order that your country might be properly organised to carry on the war when the war is declared.

I am one of those who believe the opposite. I believe that had we learned the lessons of the recent war, and of every war that has gone before that, we should have come to the conclusion that we cannot get any kind of security from armed force and from the preparation of armed force. When have armaments given us security? [An HON. MEMBER: "During the War!"] What did we find during the War? We found that in 1914 the greatest military machine this world has ever known was in the field against other armies. Where is the German Army today? It is extinct. It brought no security to the German men and to the German women, who were led to believe that armed force meant security. If there was one thing that the War ought to have taught us more than anything else, surely it was this, that the nation that devoted itself, as hon. and right hon. Gentlemen want to devote themselves, in order that they might build up the most efficient, highly skilled military machine the world has ever known, was the nation that was least secure, that that nation was the nation that had the whole world against it in its promulgation of its military ideas.

So far as the Navy is concerned, there are Members on the opposite side of the House, belonging to the hon. and gallant Member's own party, who tell us that the Navy to-day is no defence at all, that aircraft can send it to the bottom of the sea in a very short period of time. The fact of the matter is that we now know—we have discovered—that there are no military frontiers. We have discovered that there are no defences, that there is no security, that there are only centres of reprisals in any future war that we might have; in other words, that no army, however big it might-be, can defend you, that you cannot defend yourselves by means of men-of-war, that you cannot defend yourselves even by means of aircraft. In this House, in the Debates that we have had on armaments during the past few weeks, we have had it admitted that in the next war it is only going to be a question of reprisals, and I want to put it to this Committee that it is a wicked and a cruel delusion to the people at home here, men or women or children, for you to ask them to believe that any kind of armaments that you can organise and establish can give them security in time of war. The last war gave security for whom? Ten millions of men are under the sod to-day. Security for them? Security for whom, during the last war? [HON. MEMBERS: "YOU."] I will take that up in a moment. Security for whom? For property? £50,000,000,000 at the present time blown into eternity, the accumulations of 50 years. Security for what? Security for the social and spiritual development of our people?

I know as a conscientious objector, in mixing up with the men in the Army during the War, that they said—and everybody knows it was true—that you could have no religion in war time, that the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, the whole Gospel had to go by the board, and that it was impossible for you to love your brother as you love yourselves. No, there was no security for life, for religion, for morality. Just think of it for one moment. We had women and children killed in this country by the other side, and in the countries belonging to the other side their women and their children were killed by our side. Is there anyone here who dare deny that? You know it is true and that it can be proved to be true. You know that in warfare, in battle, there is no law, no kind of morality, that every man in the Army has sworn that he will obey his officers—"So help me God"—against any kind of dictates of conscience or religion that he might have.

I have been before many a tribunal and before many a court martial. I have brought military officers to the table, and I have asked them questions and cross-examined them as to what I should have to do were I in the Army. I have said: "Supposing I joined the Army, and I was ordered by my officer to pour shot into a body of trade unionists out on strike, would I have to do it?" I was told "Yes." I asked—I have the records: "Supposing I were a member of a file of soldiers called at dawn to shoot down a man who had been condemned, even though I believed him to be innocent, like Sheehy Skeffington, or a conscientious objector, would I have to shoot?" I was told "Yes." I asked: "Supposing I had secrets of a military character in my possession, and I was captured by the other side, and they threatened to tear my wife limb from limb in front of my eyes unless I was prepared to give up those military secrets, what was my duty as a soldier? The answer was clear: "Military necessity would demand that you should keep the secret, whatever happened to your loved one."

Is it in order to discuss the hon. Member's conscience on the Vote for the strength of the Army?

I want to suggest that so far as any kind of security is concerned, in the time of Napoleon, when his victorious army marched across Europe, and when he was more victorious than ever before, France was less secure than ever she had been. In 1914, the greatest military power in the world, with all the forces and all the skill which she had, was not able to safeguard her own homes or her own people.

Would she not have run over the whole world if everybody had acted like you?

I am going to deal with that question, but I want to say that, under these circumstances, it is a wicked and a criminal folly on the part of the Members of this House to say to any of the people of our country that by armed force they can give them any kind of security at all. I do not believe in arms at all. I believe in complete and final disarmament, even in the midst of an armed world. I believe that the nation that is prepared to have the courage in the midst of an armed world to lay down its arms and not to be filled with fear—fear dogging its footsteps, and paralysing its efforts—will be the only safe nation, will be the only secure nation, will be the only nation that will be able to lead the nations of the world into the paths of righteousness. I am told that awful things might happen if we laid down our arms. I am told that we might be subject to foreign dominance. People who have said that ought to know something about foreign dominance, seeing that they are members of the British nation. I am not sure that the only countries over which we reign are countries peopled by British people. If it is such a bad thing for us to be dominated by foreigners, is it not a bad thing for those countries inside the British Empire also to be dominated by foreigners? It is a dangerous argument to use when Members of this House say that no country ought to be dominated except by those of their own race and of their own country.

Are there not worse things than the physical dominance of a foreign power? What about being the slave of fear? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad hon. Members opposite realise what that means, because I have heard hardly anything from that side during all the Army debates but this: We are afraid that, unless we have more aeroplanes, France will beat us. We are afraid that, unless we have more mechanical contrivances for our Army, France will beat us. We are afraid of this, afraid of that, afraid of something else, and never secure. It is fear that wastes your substance; fear that embarasses your relations with foreign powers; fear that drives you, not to ask for armaments that you are prepared to pay for, but to ask for armaments that you are going to pay for out of starving and stinting the social services of the country, even although it means a denial of the very rights that ex-service men were promised for themselves and their dependants. In the presence of such a fear, our souls are not our own. It is not an easy thing by any means for those of us who are taking this point of view to take the unpopular line. Why do we take it? Was it not far easier for those of us who are engineers, those of us who were never asked to go into the Army, but who were simply asked to go into an engineering factory and take a big salary during the War to have done so? Why did we not do it? I will tell you why. You are not going to make progress like that. You are not going to save humanity like that. You are not going to reincarnate Christ's spirit in humanity by yielding to fear, and forsaking principle. Therefore, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned—[An HON. MEMBER: "Not all!"]?—so far as some on this side are concerned, we want to challenge the idea that armed force can bring security to any country or to any people.

I want to say one last word with regard to a matter which is, to some of us on this side, and, I believe, it ought to be to a good many Members of this House, of very great importance. I have said nothing with regard to the whole destruc- tion of morality that is always caused by devotion to this idea of armed force, and of the destruction of other peoples. In war-time, if you are told to rob and to steal from the enemy, in order that you may incapacitate them, you have to do it. If you are told you have to lie and deceive in order to circumvent them, you have to do it. If you are told you must blockade the enemy and starve their women and children, you have to do it. You talk about a holy war. You can never have a holy war carried on by such unholy methods. Here we are in the year 1924 worshipping at the shrine of a discredited god. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will the hon. Gentleman say why he voted for the cruisers?"] I say here we are in 1924 worshipping at the shrine of a discredited god, failing to understand that all that has been laid on his shrine has failed, and completely, finally and miserably failed, to bring peace to the world. After the Great War we are building more armaments; we are asking for a greater Army, a greater Air Force and a greater Fleet. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cruisers."] I will deal with the point with regard to the cruisers. Everybody knows what happened with regard to the cruisers.

Perhaps when the Navy Vote is taken I may have an opportunity of dealing with that question, but I want to say that if we reduce the Army, if we abolish the Army, it is not a question of throwing men out of work. It is infinitely better that we should pay the money we are paying them to-day, to do things that are economic, to do things that are wise, to prepare and educate themselves to be of economic and social service in our industrial system. It is not a question of throwing men out of work. It is only a question of the transformation of the purpose for which they are giving their lives. So far as I am concerned, I do not believe in war. I do not believe in condemning men to spend their lives concentrating all their faculties upon trying to work out schemes for the circumventing and the slaughter of others. What I am not prepared to do myself, I am not prepared to vote for others to do. I have always worked against armaments. I shall always vote against armaments, whether they be for the sea, air or land. I hope this House will realise that it has a great duty to face the facts of the past, and to look at this matter as practical business men. You have failed with all kinds of armaments, and with all wars in the past. You have degraded the world; you have degraded society; you have spoiled the whole lives of millions; you have destroyed the wealth that has been built up, and which ought to have been used for the betterment of mankind. The time has come to disband your armies, and for every man to say, "We will never use our hands or our brains to slaughter our fellow men." In other words, the time has come when we should dethrone Mars and exalt Christianity.

I beg to second the Amendment

This is a painful duty, but it is also a very proud duty. I am in a situation where I am involved in a conflict of loyalty. There is the loyalty to my own party, and there is the loyalty, as I conceive it, to the well-being of my fellow-countrymen and country-women. In that conflict I am bound to come down on the side of a larger loyalty, which is not the side of my party. It may be I am a young man in this House. It may be I shall learn before long that it is not possible for one to carry through a political career, and at the same time he absolutely faithful to matters which one considers of fundamental importance. It may be that, perhaps, the price of party loyalty which one has to pay is the sacrifice of one's own self-respect. I do not know whether that is so or not, yet I do know this. I have looked at the careers of some parliamentarians, and when I consider people like John Bright, I am somewhat re-assured, because I feel it is possible to follow reason as one sees it, regardless of the ties of party, and yet within the limits of one's own capacity to serve one's fellow-countrymen usefully.

Why am I here to support this Amendment? It is because I have come to the definite conclusion that I, for my part, am not prepared to take part in any future wars, and, as a consequence, I am not prepared to ask any other person to take part in any future wars. That is the simple proposition I want to try and establish here to-night. I am not a conscientious objector. I am not proud of the fact. I think, perhaps, if I had been as wise in 1914 as I am to-day, I would have been a conscientious objector. Anyhow, the fact remains I was not a conscientious objector; but there are two reasons why I have deliberately come to the conclusion that I will not take part in any future war. One reason was born of my experience, actually fighting. I am not talking now as a major-general. I am not talking as one of those brass hats, who spent most of their time well behind the lines. I am not talking like an ex-Secretary of State for War, who is now fighting a great battle in Westminster, and who was very gallant and very heroic in the way in which he sent troops to all parts of the world, but he did not very often go himself. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw, withdraw!"]

Is it not grossly unfair, Mr. Chairman, to make such an attack upon a man who has on many occasions been in the front line?

The hon. Gentleman speaks according to the knowledge he possesses. He may be right or he may be wrong.

Is it not up to hon. Members who have served with the right hon. Gentleman whom the hon. Member is criticising—I served with him as a second in command—to tell the hon. Member how the matter stands, and then is it not for him to withdraw?

The hon. Member in possession of the House has made a statement, not against any Member at present in the House, and I understand he made that statement according to his knowledge. Therefore, I do not know that I can interfere.

Perhaps hon. Members will allow me. The hon. Gentleman who is speaking says he wants to explain.

I would ask the House to remember what I said. It was this: "A man who did not go very often to these places but sent others." [ Interruption. ] I appeal to the House to be fair to me. My knowledge about the person to whom I was referring is simply this: that he spent a few months—a very few months—in connection with the armed forces of the Crown in the course of the War. I leave it at that. I want to pass that point. I want to explain my position. I was going to say that one of the reasons why I have definitely decided that I will not take any further part in war is because of my experience on the other side of the Channel. The conclusion I came to as a result of that experience was that the kind of ordeal to which human life is put in modern scientific war, with its intensive barrage, its poison gas, its tanks, and things of that sort, is such that no human being ought to be asked to endure it. It is an ordeal which is too great a strain for man's physical and nervous system. I could not contemplate again experiencing that kind of thing myself, and I could not contemplate the fact of my boy going through that experience, and I am not prepared, therefore, to ask any other man or any other man's boy to experience that kind of thing. That is one reason why I am not prepared to fight again.

There is another reason which has already been touched upon. It is this: War itself has been proved to be a futile and a useless thing. An hon. Member below the Gangway said we had not learnt the lesson of the Great War. If there be one great lesson which is writ large and plain for everyone to read, it is the fact that war is a futile and useless thing, because it never accomplishes anything. May I quote something which was said in another place by someone in a much more exalted position than myself? It was to this effect: come to the conclusion that I will not support any future war. Because of that I am not going to ask anyone else to take part in war. I am now going to address certain pointed remarks to hon. Members of this House. There are members of my party, a very considerable number of them, who, if another war were to break out, would definitely not take part in that war. There would be various reasons for that. Some would not take part in the war because they would be conscientious objectors to any kind of war. There are other members of my own party who would not take part in war because they say they would never fight a war for a capitalist country. There are other members of my party who for other reasons would not take part in war. I put it to these hon. Members as a measure of peace and human justice: if they feel like this about another war, they cannot with any sense of decency ask some other person, some poor unemployed man, to join up and go and spill blood for them.

My remarks are not confined to the Members of my own party. I turn to hon. Members below the Gangway. I know there are Members of the Liberal party who belong to the Society of Friends. These have extraordinarily strong convictions against fighting and any kind of war. I ask these selfsame Members whether they, with the views they hold, are prepared to say: "We are not going to fight. We do not believe in this horrible business of fighting. But we can hire some other people to do the fighting for us"? I submit that that kind of thing is not in accordance with an Englishman's sense of decency and justice.

I am going to call the attention of hon. Members to the way in which this so-called voluntary Army of ours is raised. It is called a voluntary Army, but in point of fact it is not a voluntary Army at all. Hon. Members know that about 90 per cent., if not more, of the recruits that get into the British Army are recruits who go because they are unemployed. [HON. MEMBEES: "Oh!"] May I develop my argument? I have here a cutting from an issue of the "Evening News" for last week. Talking about recruiting, it says this. I think it is very significant:

There is another point in connection with this recruitment. It is a very vital point. Hon. Gentlemen in the course of this discussion have been suggesting that the reason why recruits were not coming forward was the anxiety as to the rate of pay. I want to offer to the Committee another explanation. The reason recruits are not coming forward to the same extent to-day as before is contained in another extract that I got from a daily paper last week. This extract reads as follows:

7.0 P.M.

There are 615 Members of this House. It is very certain, if we go on as we are going on, we shall be involved in another great war in the course of time. How many of the 615 Members who are here now will be in the House then, or, if they are, will actually take part in the fighting; I am certain of this, that out of the 615 there will probably not be more than 150 who will take any part at all in she fighting. Many of them will be too old to fight. It is extraordinary how enthusiastic the old men are in this matter! Many then will be physically unfit. Many of them will have a conscientious objection to fighting. Many of them will have much more dubious reasons than those I have named for not fighting. I met these great patriots in the last War. They were always sighing about the age limit and saying if they were only young enough they would love to go to the War. I met them later, some of them, when the age limit was raised, and then they were like the man who was bidden to the marriage feast, they found all sorts of excuses for not going. If, then, it is a fact that in the next war, the war of the future which, unhappily, may come, there will be many who will not be prepared to fight them selves, I put it to them that they have absolutely no right to expect others, the unemployed, to go and do the fighting for them. Of course, you may say, "You signed a contract." But what a contract it is. On the one side you have the State offering these men who are hungry and unemployed a miserable pittance of a wage, and clothes and food, and on the other side you have got these men bartering their lives and limbs. It is a kind of contract of duress. They have no chance in the matter. They are driven into it by economic necessity. Are you really entitled, in these circumstances, to send these men to slaughter whenever it suits your convenience? I have never yet been able to discover that there is anything particularly heroic or patriotic in fighting on the battlefields for one's country by proxy. That is what the mass of the people in this House do. They fight in a glorious way by proxy. I have nothing but contempt for these cheap and spurious patriots whose chief contribution in any war of this sort is sending other people to be consumed in the sacrificial fires. It is the easiest thing in the world to fight to the last drop of somebody else's blood. It is a very easy thing, but a thing which is utterly despicable I do want to deal for a moment with the real issue which is raised by this Amendment. I am prepared to admit that this Amendment means the abolition of the Army, and we mean by that the abolition of all armies. We are prepared to face that issue. I want the House to remember what is the alternative. Either you face facts and say you are not going to make any further preparation for war or you carry on the race which you are at present engaged in, and you say that you are going to build up your Army or Navy or Air Force and continue the mad race of armament. What is the end of it going to be? A great sailor, Lord Fisher, said that moderation in war is imbecility, and he is quite right, too. There can be no moderation in war. We may have those enormous fleets of aeroplanes, wonderful tanks, the long range guns, and all the other dreadful appurtenances of slaughter, and you can be quite certain that if and when the next war does come it will be one of the most devastating that the world has ever known. If you do not definitely say you are going to stop this race, if you do not say you are going to rely, not upon armed force, but upon the justice of our cause; if you do not say that, you are going to do the other thing. You are going to build up your armies and finally and inevitably involve your people—not you so much as the poor people—in another devastating calamity.

I received yesterday a letter from a very poor person in the heart of Shoreditch. He had actually devised a scheme of insurance to provide big underground concrete shelters for protection against aircraft. He has been thinking and realising what the next war will mean to the crowded areas of our great cities. We all know it. We know very well, too, that, as in the last war, the people who can buy week-end cottages down in Devonshire and go to other parts of the country will to an extent be able to escape from the dangers and horrors of air raids, but the poor people in the slums will have no earthly chance of getting away. I have been waiting this opportunity ever since I came out of the Army. My hon. Friend, who moved this Amendment, said that the real cause of war is fear. That is perfectly clear. If we read the Blue Books and the White Papers dealing with the origin of the last War, we find that the key to that trouble was fear. There was Russia afraid of Germany, France afraid of Germany. Germany afraid of the combination between Russia and France; and there was general fear all round. It had its culmination in that awful tragedy. There is the same kind of fear dominating the world to-day leading to a race of armaments. We are afraid of France, America is afraid of Japan. Italy is getting nervous and suspicious about what we are doing in the Mediterranean; and so the whole circle of fear keeps up. It can only have one end.

What is true of the nations as a whole is true as between the Governments and the peoples. The Government can play—it does play—upon the fears of its people. But for the capacity which Governments have for alarming the people and worrying them about the future, they would not be able to get their great armaments and to lead them into war. To-night we do not expect to get a very sympathetic hearing from this House. What we are trying to say to the House and to the people of this country is, that some time some country has to break this vicious circle, and to make a definite stand and say that this vicious circle of fear is not going to continue. What we want to say to the people of this country is that there can be nothing finer or greater than that this country should be the country to take that stand first of all. I want to read one further quotation, and it is from a speech made by someone else in another place. It is as follows: kind of longing there is in the hearts of the poor people of this country and of all the countries who pay the great price in all the wars. We know the longing there is in the hearts of these people, and we want you to say, so far as we are concerned, we are going to establish a precedent. We are going to give one clear call to all the nations of the world." I am perfectly certain that if we give that clear call we shall rally the whole of the peoples to our standard.

I am delighted to have the opportunity of attempting some reply to the two speeches to which we have just listened. I would, however, like to say that nobody who has listened to these speeches can deny the sincerity of both of them. One can see quite clearly that both the hon. Members feel as though they had some great mission to perform in this country, to make it a peaceful state, to abolish its armaments, and show itself an example in pacifism to the world. If they could convert the whole world at once to that view, I do not believe that there is a single man in this House that would say them nay, or but would help on their suggestion. The idea that this country among the nations of the world, armed to the teeth, should be the first nation under the sun to disband our forces and abandon the possibility of defending ourselves from another nation that might have taken on a period of temporary State lunacy, and was prepared to attack and destroy us—that we should lay ourselves open to such a possibility is, in my opinion, political insanity. If we can get as much attention on the other side as has been given to the speeches which have been delivered, I think the Debate will be useful, and it can only be useful on that understanding.

I could not, neither do I think could any Englishman possibly for one moment entertain the suggestion, and I will give some reasons why. The hon. Gentlemen have some illogical positions that will require some explanation. I understand their idea is that the world should be governed solely by the principles of the Sermon on the Mount; that, so far as the element of force is concerned, it should be destroyed in every particular. Well, there are other forces than those of the Army, Navy, and Air Forces. To maintain our citizenship and protect ourselves against the brutal elements of our own society, we have the police. I doubt whether there would be a House of Commons, where reasonable and sensible debate could be carried on, if it was not for the element of force behind the law of the country. The very home of the hon. Member could be invaded by any ruffian whose mentality had not raised itself as high as his own were it not for the policeman there to defend him. That is the element of force. What is the use of moralising with an alligator? The first thing you do when you see something that you cannot reason with in the animal world is to get a stick and destroy it. That is the only way by which you can live, by which the higher developed manhood can exist and organise—by controlling the lower less developed and more brutal of the animal life to which he belongs. There you find your first theory crumpling away at the very beginning. You are entitled to use the truncheon of the policeman, and you know that there is the bayonet behind to support him in case of any dispute against legal authority. But the moment you employ the policeman's truncheon or put the "darbies" on the hands, you have admitted force as one of the controlling influences in human society. Where are you going to end when once you get to that point? Society would not be mad enough to allow the two hon. Members, who have put forward this Amendment, to be attacked by burglars, because we should protect them from their own lunacy, and we protect ourselves by protecting them. That is the individual, that is the personal right existing between citizen and citizen, and we extend that protection over the whole world.

After all, the nations of the world are so many families, so many human societies, and just as one family or its progeny is so much lower the higher one has to protect itself from them, so, when you come to international relationship, you find different grades of development and different ideas. Some races are extremely warlike, and will not live at peace with a neighbour, however pacific he may be. The only way by which that higher development can prevent itself from utter destruction is to organise a defensive system against that which is lower than itself, and so you can go on right through all human society.

You talk about destruction. The destruction is nothing. You speak of 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 lives being thrown away in the last Great War—you can call it 20,000,000 if you like—in saving this State and European nations from destruction. But what was the alternative? It may be extremely disastrous and sad that one single man or family should be lost, even in a just cause. It is a sad matter, indeed, I confess, for the bread-winner, or the brother, or the sweetheart, as the case may be, to be destroyed for any purpose whatever. I admit all that. It is sad and deplorable, but I think the saddest thing in the world is that a nation with a high culture and democratic institutions should be deliberately assailed by a Power that relies entirely upon force, and that that civilisation and that State and the race to which they belong should be destroyed, because that is infinitely more disastrous for the progress of the world than the destruction of the men who defend it.

What does it mean? Let us look back over the history of the world. As long as human records go what do you find? You may have all the highest principles in the world, you may have the finest civilisation, such as Greece or Rome had, but what do you find? You find that that race and its institutions, however, accomplished they may be, that has not, when a critical period in the history of the world comes, the power, the sense and the courage to defend itself, is dead and destroyed, and it ceases to be. Its institutions are obliterated, and, except for the few pages of examples you might get from its history, so far as its influence in world's concerns go, they are gone for ever.

I tell hon. Members opposite, frankly, that I am opposed to their view of this situation, and their principles are what I am protesting against. Sooner than I would see this old country and its institutions over-run and destroyed—I do not care whether the race that overruns it is a higher intellectual family than our own, or what its accomplishments may be—I would not only risk my own life, but the whole manhood of the country to defend it. I think the man who would not stand up and defend a glorious old country like ours cannot be worthy of the name of Englishman. That is exactly my position. I am not a man who wishes to see my country with a huge army taking on a belligerent policy, challenging everybody I say that in the case of a bully like that, if there were such a bully among the nations of the world, other nations would be entitled to combine themselves together in order to protect themselves, just as the world combined together to protect itself from the huge force machine produced by the Kaiser.

What is the final position my hon. Friends have taken up? They say, "Here is this great army that Germany had taken 40 years to train and admittedly the greatest military machine the world had ever seen, what did it accomplish?" Good Heavens! If we had all done as the hon. Member did we should have been a far different nation than we are to-day. You would have had no House of Commons here. The hon. Member opposite would not have been a Member of the House of Commons. You can take it for granted that your seat there would have been in possession of someone else, a race more virile than you have proved yourselves to be. Why was it that Germany was not able to accomplish her purpose? If everybody had been defenceless and no one had resisted, Germany could have enforced her culture and her views upon the people of the world. But she was opposed by men of courage with a high idea of patriotism.

When the last War broke out we had no Army to begin with, and we knew perfectly well the struggle with Germany would be one of the greatest combats the world had ever seen, and that even we might be destroyed. I sat in this House when it was decided to go to war, and I felt sure at the time that when we started that campaign it might end in absolute ruin of our own country. But that ruin or defeat, after a courageous attempt to secure our position in the world, would have been nothing compared with the complete overrunning by armed hordes of our institutions without any resistance being offered. I admit the enormous sincerity of the two hon. Members who have spoken in support of this Amendment, but at the same time I say they are mistaken in their view. Just as the House of Commons and municipalities provide the police to protect hon. Members in their homes from the brutes who will not listen to reason or argument if they think that something which hon. Members possess ought to be taken from them; just as we protect people in civil occupations and civil life and maintain them as entities in our State, so it is necessary for us to supply to the different Departments of the State the necessary force to enable this old country to continue its civilisation.

The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken has done so with his usual chivalry and sincerity, and he has acknowledged the sincerity of the motives of the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment. On one point the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down seems to misunderstand the position. The objection to war is entirely different from the objection to force. The case has been mentioned of the danger to society that may come from a selfish use of power, but the danger of force so used by the outcasts of society is entirely different from the case of war. In the case of the police, force is only used within the law and in defence of the whole community against the wrongdoer. Moreover, the policeman uses force in such a way as to cause a minimum of injury even to the wrongdoer, while the immediate purpose of the law is to secure not merely the punishment, but the reform of the wrongdoer, and not only the protection of society.

I want to say a few words with reference to the Amendment, and I do so because of something that was said by the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) in his impressive speech. I have the profoundest sympathy with the ultimate object which I believe those hon. Members have in putting down this Amendment, and yet I feel that the way they are going about it is a mistaken way. Of course, we cannot vote for this Amendment unless we are prepared to accept all the consequences of it, and I believe that some of its supporters and even the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, if there was a possibility of a majority of this House voting for it, would hesitate about giving it their support. [ Interruption. ] I said "some." The hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Ayles) denies that. I gladly accept his denial, and I will gladly except any hon. Member who is prepared for all the consequences, but we ought to consider the consequences. Would it not mean that in less than three weeks time 150,000 men would be discharged from the Army, and that the utmost confusion would be caused, not merely in the Army but in the whole country and in the whole world? Their object is an admirable one, and I have no quarrel with it, but we ought not to seek this great object of a warless world by a seeming short cut which will not bring us to the goal we have in view. You cannot abolish fear simply by disbanding 150,000 men from the Army. The cause lies far deeper than the hon. Member has realised. We have to get to a warless world by a more difficult path than the one he has chosen. It is a longer route, but it is a surer route.

If we are to abolish fear, we must build up confidence, and we have already the beginning of this better world growing up under our eyes in the machinery of the League of Nations, and in the machinery of international co-operation that has come about through the League of Nations. Our first object, if we want a warless world, ought, therefore, to be to do all we can to strengthen the work of the League of Nations and to strengthen international co-operation—to cut at the roots of fear, not by a hasty measure such as has been proposed, but by a long and steady continuous process. I am perfectly prepared to agree that we, as a great country, should make a great gesture to the world, but we must do it in the right way. We cannot think of the Army as an isolated unit; we must remember that all our fighting forces are to be taken and considered together. While I know that on this occasion we must not refer to another fighting force, I may be permitted to say that the right way is, surely, to make a gesture where we are strongest, and where we can do it without being in any way misunderstood. I believe that that will be possible. But, above all, we must insist on building up the great machine of international cooperation that exists already in the League of Nations, and on showing, from all sides of this Committee, that we are going to support its work. One of the objects of the League of Nations is to get, not one-sided disarmament, but general and gradual disarmament—not in one nation only, but in all the great nations, in all the nations of the world. I believe that we, as a House of Commons, ought to show that we are with the League of Nations in that object, and that, when the time comes, we shall be prepared, in the right way, to make our contribution towards securing a warless world. I do not believe that this Debate will be useless or without its effect. We know that there is an echo from this Chamber that our ears cannot hear—an echo that is heard in distant places in the land, and far away across the sea; and that, when sincere words are spoken here on behalf, not only of better conditions in our own country, but of better conditions over the whole world, for securing a truer basis of civilisation, for making humanity what it ought to be and what is was meant to be, there is a response in the hearts of men. I believe a response will come to this appeal. Although the way in which it has been made has been one that I cannot commend, the intention is one that I fully approve, and I hope that no word will be spoken in any quarter of this Committee against the ideal, which must appeal to us all, of a civilisation from which this curse shall have been eliminated. The day will come, I believe, when our descendants will look back upon warfare as we look back now upon some of the evils of a barbarous age; and we can contribute now something, in this House of Commons, towards bringing that day nearer.

As one of the young men who will probably have to fight in the next war, referred to by the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle), I would support every possible way and every possible means of stopping the recurrence of war. For that reason I most certainly oppose this Amendment. I would ask the Committee to examine our commitments abroad. We have heard this evening a great deal about high idealism and so on, but I should like to come down to hard facts and see exactly what we are responsible for, what we are pledged to do, and what we have done in the past. When we are accused of causing, through armaments, the degradation of humanity, I would only ask hon. Members to look at India. Have hon. Members ever studied the history of India, and do they realise what a welter of misery had been going on in that country before the British came there? Have they ever read the history of the Mahratta War, or of the wars of the strong tribes of the North upon the suffer- ing weaker tribes in the South? Who put an end to them? The British with their armies. Through having those armies we have not degraded humanity, but have helped to lift it on to a far higher plane than it ever reached before. We are also pledged to defend Ulster from any aggressive attack. I viewed with grave alarm the incidents that took place in the Free State only last week. We have thrown over a large number of loyalists in Ireland, and I think it is up to us to carry out our pledges to Ulster and protect it from any aggressive attack from the South. As a matter of humanity, one has only to read the extraordinary acts of atrocity and brutality that went on throughout the South of Ireland right up to 1922. Are we, by reducing the Army by 150,000 men, to lay open Ulster to a similar orgy of brutality? We have heard that war destroys religion, but I venture to say that the idealism which swept through the country was one of the main forces which enabled us successfully to come through the Great War. If it had not been for the splendid spirit which inspired the whole manhood of the country, hon. Members opposite would not be sitting there able to say what they like. They would have had a heavy iron heel on their necks, and, if they had ventured to make some of the remarks they have made this evening, they would have found themselves in gaol, if nothing worse had happened to them.

You would be there still. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stoke (Lieut.-Colonel J. Ward) pointed out the folly of such a disarmament, and I would go on to say that I do not believe that this Army of ours is in any way built up for aggression. That seems to me to be an entirely wrong way of looking at it, and I would ask the Committee to remember that, as I have said, I am probably one of those who would have to go into the next war. It has been suggested that we inveigle young men into the Army because they are starving and homeless, and that 90 per cent. of the recruits come in because they are unemployed. I know the stamp of the recruits that are coming in to-day, and they are very fine young men indeed. When the recruit comes into the Army, he is taught, not only discipline, but a trade. The whole modern policy of the Army is to turn out men into civil life fitted with an education that will enable them to take up a job. I want to protest, also, against the use of the initials "CO." as indicating "conscientious objector." "CO." is a sound Army term for a commanding officer, and it ought in no sense to be used to describe a man who was unwilling to get up and fight for his own home and his own well-being. I think the letter received by the hon. Member, which recommended the construction of large anti-aircraft shelters, proved conclusively that the man who wrote it was not in any way ill-educated, but showed extraordinarily sound commonsense. If there were an air raid over London, and we were not defended, what would the people in the East End say if we went round and asked them to remember the speeches made in this Chamber on the 17th March, 1924? They would say that, indeed, they were led by false prophets. Surely, it is well worth while to take that little trouble to make ourselves secure, and not to risk the appalling horrors that would come upon us if we were not in any way defended.

There is security. I believe entirely in the League of Nations and shall support every effort to make it a real and a living thing, but we have only to look back to last year, when the Italians refused to acknowledge the authority of the League of Nations. What could the League of Nations do? Absolutely nothing; and why? Because it had no force behind it. Until it has grown far bigger, and has become a thing to which the nations turn by second nature immediately any trouble occurs, I venture to say we must have force to support it. I like to call myself a practical idealist. I think it would be absolutely immoral, with all the commitments which we have undertaken at the request of the League of Nations or under Mandates, if we did not provide ourselves with the means of carrying out those commitments. It is no use hon. Members opposite professing to be solicitous for the welfare of the poor unfortunate natives of foreign countries, while taking no steps to see that they are protected. Therefore, I most strongly oppose this proposal to reduce the Army.

My purpose in wishing to take part in this Debate is to correct any wrong impression that may exist that the speeches that have been made by the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment represent the whole of the back benches on this side of the Committee, and also to protest against the suggestion that Labour is pledged to unconditional disarmament, or that the fundamental principles for which the Labour party stands, because those principles are international, are therefore opposed to national integrity. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am thoroughly sympathetic with the ideals and inspiration of the Mover and Seconder. I no more believe in war than they do. I do not believe that warfare brings security to the world. Unfortunately, I am afraid the problem is not such a simple one as one would imagine from listening to the speeches we have had on that side. It is an extraordinary thing to me that those who believe in self-determination and fervently support nationalism abroad, who are always ready to respond to the suggestion of British inhumanity so far as native races are concerned, who regard every instance of religious or tribal disorder as representing the righteous desire of nations to be free, should regard it as a particularly capitalistic and reactionary notion that one's own country is entitled to cherish its identity. Self-determination, it seems, is a very sacred principle so long as it is self-determination for capitalist nationalists in far away places who object to the British Government upon economic grounds and want freedom to exploit their proletariat in their own particular way. To my mind, the pacifist cult is entirely and thoroughly illogical and sentimental in the worst sense of that word—the sense of sentimentalism. By sentimentalism I mean a state of mind in which we find that sentiments are spoken, not necessarily because they are held with strong conviction, still less that they are applied with any clear judgment at all, but because they are felt to be fine and touching things to say.

We are asked to believe that by abandoning armed force and throwing the British Empire into the melting pot—do not forget that if you destroy the means of national and imperial defence it implies the disintegration of the British Empire—we may induce the rest of the world to treat us as friends and to scorn to take advantage of our helplessness. Why not apply the same test to other problems? Why should not a trade union turn the other cheek to the smiter, withhold the protection of the law from women and children and trust to the finer feelings of the brute as a moral gesture, do away with prisons in order to eliminate crime, do away with restraint to allow nature to find the simple course of moral sanity. These ideas are just as applicable to this whole question of force, the question of idealism and the question of Tolstoian Christianity which has been brought forward as the only real basis of the argument in favour of disarmament. Those doctrines are taught even to-day, but they are the doctrines which Socialism waged successful battle against many years ago. They are the doctrines of philosophic anarchism. From another point of view they are a form of political Christian Science, declaring evil to be non-existent if we dare think so. As a matter of fact Socialists—and I think all of us on these benches are Socialists—are not Internationalists because they believe in the brotherhood of man or even the brotherhood of the working class. The idea of brotherhood is a religious idea which Socialists, like other people, may hold or may not. The idea of brotherhood may be a very good reason for interesting oneself in Internationalism, but we are Internationalists because we know it is impossible to establish those reconstructions and changes in society that we believe in in one country completely and perfectly until they are international, until they are brought about in other countries as well. That is the reason why Socialists are Internationalists. It is not Socialism, it is not a Labour principle, but the confusion of religious ideas with material things which accounts for the entanglement of Internationalism with the will to surrender national integrity.

The nation is a political unit. It justifies its integral state by its comparative efficiency, and by no other test whatever. To that efficiency many factors may contribute—race, boundaries, culture, climate, and so forth-but nationality is neither territorial nor is it ethnological; it is functional. A story was recently told of a brilliant Oxford teacher of logic. He took the example of a young man who got drunk on three successive nights, the first night upon whiskey and soda, the second night upon brandy and soda, and the third night upon gin and soda. He came to the conclusion that the one constant factor of the soda was the cause of his disaster and he never drank soda with his whisky or brandy for the rest of his life. By an analogous inversion of reasoning the pacifists decide that because nations get drunk with the spirit of aggression, fear and jingoism, the constant factor of the trained soldier and lethal weapon is the fundamental cause of war. I am ready to agree with the position that to prepare for war is not to make peace, but it does not follow that to prepare for peace the process of stripping oneself of all means of defence is the way to ensure peace. The argument which has been put forward that someone must begin is like the announcement on the Irish railway, that trains travelling in opposite directions must come to a standstill until they have passed each other. The answer to it really is that no one nation is going to begin, and you could not begin in this country until you converted the whole of the country as a national unit. I am not prepared to wait for that, even supposing one were to agree that there was any possible idea or certainty of other nations following the moral gesture and the need which is put forward. It will be necessary for this nation to become, not merely a unit, but also united. I have no wish to sneer at the Sermon on the Mount. I am prepared to believe in the possibility of the Sermon on the Mount being a national thing just as much as a personal thing, but it has got to be a national thing. It has got to be a thing which represents the entire and absolute conviction of the whole of the people before it will be of the slightest use pretending the adoption of the pacifist doctrine to be any question of practical policy at all.

I prefer the policy of the Labour party, and that policy is the same policy as that of the Independent Labour party, to which the Mover and Seconder belong, according to its general secretary, Mr. Fenner Brockway, who, I hope, will be a Member of this House in a very few days. This is what the Independent Labour party puts forward as its official policy upon the question of disarmament:

Now listen to the sentimentalist. He says, "Are we then to answer the killing and maiming of our women and children by similar savagery directed against enemy cities?" The answer to that is that no city is immune. No country is immune. The horrors of civil devastation do not depend on the chance of defeat in the field against the corresponding hope of victory. The new factor in the problem is the certainty of effective reprisal. That certainty and the deadly knowledge of immediate calamity is all that stands between sanity and annihilation. The only alternative, it seems to me, to the position as I have stated it, unless all nations are willing to disarm simultaneously—and the cause of international disarmament is not a controversial question—is the Tolstoian one of laying down arms whatever other nations may do. Such a policy is de- fended upon the ground that no other country will wantonly injure an unarmed people. "Who wants Great Britain?" I beard asked by an hon. Member the other day. Is it appropriate to answer, "Who wanted the Ruhr Valley?" I seem to remember bitter accusations regarding the wantonness of the French with regard to that case, and about the question, for instance, of black troops in the defenceless areas of Germany. Whether the bitterness was justified or not it seemed to argue that helplessness is no guarantee of inviolability. Those who greeted the statement in this House with laughter that Koltchak was a high-souled patriot never, to my knowledge, recommended Russia to disband its Red Army. It is said there can be no inducement for other nations to invade Great Britain. I am surprised that Socialists, who believe that our own country, with its democratised forms of Government, may well be destined to give a lead to the world, cannot see the menace that such a lead and example would be to world capitalism. Under such circumstances, the interests of the financiers and capitalists of the whole world would lie in crushing the Government of this country. Immediately outside these walls from a hundred platforms a certain Admirable Crichton of politics is being furiously denounced on the ground that he placed the capitalist game in the attempt to crush a workers' republic by armed force. In interest in Britain, a country dependent upon foreign trade for its food! No interest in a Socialist Britain with a minority, if not armed against the government, willing to accept foreign aid! I am not saying that. I can get it all from Socialist publications.

8.0 P.M.

As for Empire protection—India, Africa, the Pacific—that problem does not, we are led to believe, arise. All these people who are linked up with the British Empire are equally ready for self-government, from Tankanyika to Trinidad. There must remain in any prospect of time we need consider the problem of the backward races who may be incapable at present of any form of self-government that can exist in contact with civilised ideas of government. The alternatives are to leave such people to their own devices or in some form or other subject them. These alternatives are as real for international Socialism as for Capitalistic Imperialism. To surrender our possessions or Protectorates in Africa, the West Indies, the Pacific or elsewhere is not to hand back to the native populations their freedom to fight, exploit and enslave each other, but to throw such territories to be scrambled for by the powerful nations of the world. Such a policy of disintegration that would be involved by carrying into effect an Amendment such as that proposed tonight would not lead to peace but to something more horrible, so far as Asiatic conditions are concerned, than ever existed before the British occupation of India. I cannot see in the tenets of international Socialism anything that says that a handful of savages have a natural or any other right to monopolise the best and richest areas of the earth's surface to the exclusion of races capable of making sufficient use of such areas. The idea of scuttling out of India is one that I cannot understand from the point of view of Labour and Socialism. India, with its 200 different languages, its thousands of different castes, its millions of untouchables, its vast illiterateness, with its innumerable tribes, with its great varieties of religion and of civilisation and its varied outlooks on life—the idea of scuttling out of India or any of our possessions, so far as the question of government and development is concerned, is one that is, to my mind, not at all consistent with Socialist or Labour principles. The ideal of Socialism is economic federation of the whole world, and that economic federation will not be brought about by disintegration.

The hon. Member is really getting far wide of the subject matter, which is an Amendment to reduce the British Army.

The reason I did touch on the wider question was that it seemed to me that the reduction of the British Army means the disintegration of the British Empire. There is a large section of the Labour and Socialism movement opposed to the idea of disintegration, however much they may be in favour of doing all that can possibly be done to encourage self-government and a federation of the world on economic and political lines. That being the case, I want again to emphasise that the Socialist movement as a whole does not stand for a policy of disarmament. We stand for universal disarmament, for the development of the League of Nations, or a better authority than the League of Nations, we stand for the ideals of the Sermon on the Mount, but we want our idealism to have its feet on the ground, even if it has its head in the clouds.

I should like to bring one or two facts to the attention of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment. I do not think they have taken into consideration the smallness of our forces in comparison to the population of our Empire and the area of our territory. Although there are local forces, after all the British Army is the real reserve police force of our Empire. Before you contend that it is too large, you should compare it with the total population of the Empire and its area. We have, at a rough calculation, one British soldier for every 2,000 of the population of the Empire, that is, one soldier for every sixty-five square miles of our territory. On the same scale, we should only have 130 soldiers for the area of the United Kingdom. Now, in London, the heart of our Empire, where there are no war-like tribes and where our most exciting contests, such as the cup tie at Wembley, are conducted in comparative peace, the proportion of police to the population is one to every 340 people. If hon. Members are so satisfied that we ought to reduce our insurance against disorder, they ought to turn their attention to reducing the police, which surely can be done with far less risk than reducing the Army. If they wanted to reduce the police in the same proportion as they want to reduce the Army, there would be only 1,500 police left in London instead of 21,000. I think we ought to examine our Army in the light of our present and future commitments and whether it is an adequate instrument to meet them.

It may be said that no war is likely to develop for a number of years, and certainly no Government that is likely to hold office in this country can develop a warlike policy. The people would not stand it. Nevertheless, we have commitments. Under Article 10 of the League of Nations Covenant, we have certain commitments. This House is going to be asked to ratify the Treaty of Lausanne. To that Treaty is attached the Straits Convention by which we, in common with other countries, will be bound to maintain the defence of certain demilitarised zones. The House may reject this Convention, but then the Treaty might be repudiated by the Turks. If we accept this liability which we have entered into, for the take of peace, it is true, but a liability nevertheless, we have entered into an undertaking in which our Army might be involved at any time. Then there is the Treaty of Mutual Guarantee. This Treaty has been accepted by many countries. It has been sent forward by the League of Nations for the consideration of the Government. Its sole object is to enforce peace and reduce armaments. Nevertheless, for the sake of these things, positive military commitments have to be undertaken. If we ratify this Treaty in its present or in some modified form, we shall have incurred, with the best of objects, military duties which would have to be faced, and we might have to make a call upon our military resources. I submit to the Committee that, far from having too large an Army, we have an Army that is reduced to the absolute minimum compatible with safety, not only as a fighting force, but as regards policing the Empire itself. That is why I so consistently plead that, our Army being so small, it should have a superfine equipment to enable it to deal with emergencies and difficulties such as no other country in the world has to face.

I am delighted to have an opportunity of supporting most heartily the Amendment so ably submitted by our Friends on this side. I think it augurs well for the Labour party with which they are identified that they should have given no uncertain sound on this great question. We find our church councils and our great organisations in the country, with representative men, devoting their serious attention to this question and strongly commending the most vigorous attitude of antagonism to armaments. The whole thing comes down to this, that when we enter this House, to which the whole nation looks for adjudication on any question of the kind, it is for each man or woman returned here, who has taken the individual responsibility of advocating such a policy, to prove their sincerity by submitting their proposal to this House. I have listened to speeches from those who have dealt with this question in its philosophic aspects and who ask us why we should not face the question of abandoning the police. The reason why we have, in our so-called civilisation, such forces as the Army, is that we have not the courage, the faith in our principles, which we profess as a Christian nation. A great deal of criticism has been devoted to a speech by Lord Birkenhead that created somewhat of a sensation quite recently. The criticism of Lord Birkenhead was on the score of his callousness, his cold, calculating way of driving home our imperative duty to maintain, to all intents and purposes, the policy laid down by the German professor Neitzche, which was so greatly condemned in the War. To my view, his Lordship was only putting down in blunt fashion what is undoubtedly the view held by the general body of the Members of this House. There was no need to lash out in criticism of his Lordship, because we know that if the bugle were sounded to-morrow and if poison gas were to be let out for the destruction of humanity, there would be men available to prostitute their high calling. There is no use in our directing our criticism to the Church and saying that the Church in general has failed to practice its principles, if we who are politically representing the Labour movement are not prepared to stand by our principles and ask other people to go into the Lobby of the House of Commons in support of them. The philosophy that has been submitted is that you cannot do this sort of thing from the practical point of view. Associated with the City of Dundee is the name of a working girl who, utterly unequipped with any weapon, entered the field of foreign enterprise, going right into the depths of the forces of savagery which had manifested the greatest brutality in the killing of infant life. She dispensed self-sacrificing service, and was helpful to the people in many ways, not only in giving them the benefit of spiritual truths, but of medical aid. She had gained some knowledge of medical science and became so efficient as to help them in their physical ailments and to give relief in their mental afflictions. She also applied her mind to adjudicating in their disputes and, in short, became a thoroughly recognised and specially-accepted magistrate, controlling the entire force of savages with magnificent triumph on the strength of the very principles which hon. Members opposite declare to be absolutely impracticable. If a woman can do that, surely a man can do it. [HON. MEMBEES: "Livingstone!"] Yes, Livingstone did it. We are hearing to-day of women coming forward, and I am giving this instance of the great work performed by one woman to strengthen my argument that surely a man can emulate what a woman has done.

I stand by the conscientious objector. I have heard from the other side of the House nothing but contempt, sneers and ridicule over the conscientious objectors. I have supported them all the way through. I was told that I lost thousands of votes on that score, but I said then, and I say now, that those who could stand up, as some of them did, in front of the guns to be blown to bits, who stood the test of facing contumely in this country because of the courage which they manifested, who passed through our prisons and went through all sorts of hardships and bitterness, are not men at whom we should scoff. They sounded a clarion note which has reached throughout the world. Hon. Members on the other side who have spoken against the Amendment would do well to remember that the gentleman who is the official representative of the Labour party in the Westminster election is directly representative of the "No More War League."

I am not going to prophesy as to what is going to happen, but a man who can stand up as that Gentleman did, gives evidence of a courage which has a far better value than the courage of a man who goes to the War for a few months and then comes back and takes a seat in the Government. Someone has said, where should we have been if others had done as was done by the hon. Members who have spoken for the Amendment? From my own knowledge of the procedure at the tribunals, I can testify that over and over again, when the conscientious objector stated his case, it was admitted by those sitting on the tribunal that if everybody acted in the same way as those men did, there would be no war.

It is not confined to one nation. The setting up of this principle and the stand made by the conscientious objectors lit up a movement in every nation involved in the War, and a conference of the representatives of that movement brought out the fact that, running through the lives of the working class movement in all the nations of the world, there was the feeling that armaments were kept not for home defence—God knows, they are defenceless—not for the protection of the homes, but for the protection of the sordid, selfish materialism that is represented by the majority of the Members of this House. In Dundee, the wives and dependants of the men who were swept into the War had to traverse the streets in a procession—a miserable spectacle of sorrow-stricken people, because they were deserted by the Government and could not get sufficient to keep the home fires burning. That procession was held in protest against the scandalous hypocrisy of the cry that the men had been called out in defence of their own homes, whereas their own wives said: "It is an absolute lie."

There is no good in our standing up for principles during the War if we do not stand up for them now. It has been acknowledged that many of the statements made in this House concerning the object of the War were false. It came to be quite transparent that the holier the war the greater the lies that had to be told about it. It is a travesty of our opening of the Holy Book if we are going to say that the whole thing has to be scrapped whenever it suits the purpose of nefarious parties, and we are to talk about the prospect of having a deluge of death-dealing weapons, simply to put into the sleep from which there is no awakening on this side, millions of people. To me the whole thing is so incompatible that there seems no prospect of any real, definite evidence of our sincerity as a nation, even with the League of Nations. If we want to make an impression on the League of Nations, and those whom the League of Nations represent, we must make some sub- stantial contribution to show that we are not playing the old political game as we have done before. Did we go to India simply for the benefit of the Indians? Was it a philanthropic enterprise upon which we had been engaged, when Lord Roberts said that we had conquered one third of the globe by the power of the sword?

We are all going to stand before another bar to be judged. We are not going to be judged as to whether we belong to this denomination or that denomination. We are not going to be judged in that way. Every man and woman will stand, one day, before the bar of God, and it will not be a question of what our political party thought was practicable, or what any particular interest or any Government or any section in this House or elsewhere thought was practicable. The question which we shall have to answer before our Maker will be, how did we discharge our duty and act up to the professions that we have made as Christians, having regard to the words of Christ, "Put up thy sword, for those who use the sword shall perish by the sword." If there is anything in the Holy Book, as I fully believe there is, of reliability and of substance to guide and direct every man and woman in this House, and if it is practicable for every individual, it is practicable for us to recommend it to this nation and to every nation in the world.

I believe that our nation has in itself, as other nations have in more or less degree, a growing desire, by the influence of the power of Christianity which, though it looks as if it were not getting a look in, is nevertheless permeating the hearts and minds of men and women of all classes and conditions, to make war impossible. The late Lord Morley said concerning the War, in reference to those who asked, "If we do not succeed where shall we be?": as I can understand the rules of the House this Amendment is as far as we can get towards the practical abolition of the British Army, and we are backing it on that score whenever we can get a chance. We are trying to give effect to what we believe conscientiously to be the right thing. If, as we believe, the natural and logical consequence of armaments is to produce war, these interests that are in conflict between the nations are in every country opposed to the interest of the toilers who are the producers of the wealth of our country, and if it is a matter of real defence, the question arises of what we are to defend?

Look at the position of the housing question, and the number of our unemployed. What are we defending? We are defending the things which keep those conditions in existence. That is what they are relying on. Reference has been made to the existence of the police. It is just the same as regards the Army and Navy. The whole range of the idea of our civilisation to-day is the production of armaments. If you are not prepared to follow the principles of the Sermon on the Mount and the golden rule, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," then these are the consequences which follow the breach of that rule, for which we are making preparation by having 160,000 men in the British Army. I support this Amendment, which should have the support of every man and woman, and particularly of every woman. It was a deplorable thing in the last War to find women actually urging their own family circles into this vortex of bloodshed, with the encouragement of men who had no intention of being there and knew that they would not be there, and it was specially deplorable when the same thing was counselled in churches by ministers of the Gospel of Christ. This was one of the greatest tragedies we could possibly have, as it meant the desecration of the Gospel of Christ whom they professed to serve. I am delighted to have had the opportunity of making this declaration on this Amendment.

In the few words which I have to say I wish to dissociate myself entirely from the proposers of this Amendment. I have nothing to say against those who support this Amendment. If there is any remarkable feature of this House, it is the complete tolera- tion extended to any man, no matter what his opinions may happen to be, if he expresses them from purely conscientious motives. I hope that I shall not be considered guilty of making any accusations of dishonesty or hypocrisy in anything which I have got to say. I dislike war. The example of the last War stands out in such a manner that the very mention of war conveys horror to the mind of the ordinary man. I was too old to go myself to the last War, but I took a non-combatant share in the War because I thought that it was justifiable, in order to save the world from military domination. I regret very much to see that even now a trend in the direction of using human brains and science not to preserve life but to destroy it. There is no combatant who served in the last War and who fought in it and experienced the horrors of the War who does not hate war as vigorously as the Proposer and Seconder of the Amendment. But I fail to see how the Amendment is going to help up in the matter. I join issue with them there.

Your predecessor in the Chair, Sir, told the Committee that this discussion was on a reduction in the Army. It goes much further than that. We have it somewhat courageously stated in this House that it is not a reduction of the Army, but its abolition that is desired. That is a bold statement to make; it requires considerable courage to make it. We were told by the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment that the next wax meant wholesale devastation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to have corroboration of that. If it means wholesale devastation are we going to be free from devastation by disarmament and by the destruction of the Army and Navy and home defence? How is that going to help us from the devastation of the war? I do not see the logic of hon. Members on this side who support the Amendment. In many respects they are somewhat inconsistent. For instance, we have heard the same hon. Members eulogise Russia and commend Russia to the notice of the proletariat of the world. I never heard these Gentlemen condemn the Red Army. On the other hand, I have heard them justify the existence of the Red Army. [HON. MEMBEES: "Who?"] I do not want to be invidious, but the Red Army of Russia has been justified by the very men who call themselves pacifists now.

But they are defending the revolutionary republic, for which that army was necessary. Their principle now seems to be, "Put your trust in Providence." There is an old saying, and to me a very forcible one, "Trust m Providence, but keep your powder dry." I see no other way out of the difficulty. Are we the only Christian nation; are there no other Christian nations? At least other nations say they are Christian, and I do not think we can boast any more than any other nation. Because we call ourselves a Christian nation, are the other nations to be allowed to take advantage of our weakness whenever they have an opportunity, and are we to lie down and submit to them? Hon. Members say that we should show an example to the world. It is not always easy to persuade your opponent to follow your example. I have had a somewhat rocky and various career, and I have tried that game over and over again, but I have never found it to act.

"A man convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion still."

I rose only for the purpose of dissociating myself altogether from the policy of the Amendment. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) told us that the true Christian policy was to" love your neighbour as yourself.' It takes two to make a bargain. Suppose that your neighbour does not love you; suppose that he comes with a bludgeon; suppose he tells you, "I do not love you, and, therefore, I am going to lay you out." I do not think any reasonable man would respect a neighbour of that kind. I am speaking of the necessity of existing circumstances. International disarmament, yes; the abolition of war, yes. There I go as far as any man in this House. But I do not subscribe, and I hope I never will subscribe, to a policy of submitting this nation to the mercy of everybody else, when the trend to-day is, and always will be under the present system, to covet your neighbour's goods all over the world. While the present system exists, no matter what the attitude of the Front Bench or the Back Bench of my party, I absolutely and emphatically refuse to subscribe to the policy enunciated in the Amendment.

I congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken on a very excellent and refreshing speech, full of sound common-sense. It comes most refreshingly after the speech of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour and of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment. In listening to those three speeches, I confess that I was amazed at the mentality of the hon. Members. I first thought that these hon. Gentlemen had never stirred beyond their village greens, and yet one of them told us that he was abroad fighting. All the more I cannot understand their mentality. They can see other nations armed, and yet they think they can live in this country, that they will be able to protect this country absolutely unarmed and without any form of protection. Such mentality is astounding. What to me is still more astounding is their forgetfulness. Less than six years ago to-day, on the 21st March, 1918, this country was going through the greatest and most dangerous ordeal that it has ever gone through. Yet here to-day we find hon. Members suggesting that we should do away completely with our Army. Surely in the time that has passed they should have learned the lesson that it is only by our having protected ourselves that they are here to-day.

I cannot understand what their reasoning is. Is it that they hate their country and wish it to be destroyed? Is it that they desire the forces of law and order to be thrown aside so that the revolution which many of them preach shall be accomplished more quickly? I cannot see what their ideas are, that they should desire the whole of our protective forces to be removed at one fell swoop. Do they realise what happens when you take away from a country the only forces that make for law and order? They have had a very good example in the neighbouring island in the last few years. The British Government of 1921 took away the British troops and the Irish Constabulary from Ireland. What was the result? There was no peace. House after house went up in fire, and the man that was armed took from his neighbour that was not armed. Only when the Free State Government formed a police force and army was peace restored once more. During the interregnum there was no sort of police force or army in the country. Is that the condition to which hon. Members wish to reduce this country?

Throughout human existence, from the earliest stages of human life, there has been need for self-protection. Ancestors of hon. Members in the far days of the past stood clothed in skins in front of their caves. They were armed either with stick or stone with which to protect their caves. It is only a change of method to-day. We have advanced out of the system of families and through the tribal system until we have come to the national system. To-day, under the national system you have police to protect your families; you have the iron hand in the velvet glove always there; there is force behind it. In order to protect the nation you have the Army. We are more civilised and more organised. We talk to-day of nations instead of families. The whole human idea has been to protect yourself first, and the man who has not that idea of self-protection, who is not willing to stand up for his own home and his own possessions, must be abnormal.

Man must be able to protect himself, and that has been the case throughout history. Human nature has in no wise altered since the beginnings of history. To-day we in this country are responsible for some 400,000,000 of population, and it is for their safety we are fighting. Are we going to leave them absolutely defenceless? They are dependent on us; are we to leave them to be defended by the platitudes or the beatitudes of hon. Members opposite? It is no defence whatever, or only a very poor defence which they would produce. The duty of every Member who loves his country is to vote against this Amendment. It is subversive of every principle of liberty and justice. By Voting against it the Committee will prove that we intend to carry out our duties; that we intend, to the best of our abilities, to carry out our responsibilities to those peoples and nations over whom we rule, and with whose destinies we may be entrusted. I feel confident this House will utterly reject this preposterous Amendment.

While I occupy the time of the Committee, I trust I may enjoy the consideration which is ordinarily afforded to a Member who rises to make a maiden speech. I followed the course of this discussion with considerable interest, and I listened with more than interest, with a great deal of sympathy, to the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, but, in spite of the sympathy which their speeches inspired, I am bound to say that, for my part, I cannot support the Amendment. Nobody can doubt that the hon. Members responsible for the Amendment are actuated by perfectly good motives and are perfectly sincere in all they say. I ask them to believe that those who disagree with their point of view have equally good motives and are quite as sincere. May I submit what seem to me to be two leading considerations in this discussion. One is that the people of this country still regard national defence as a primary function of the State. They may be wrong or they may be right in that view, but we live in democratic times and this is a democratic country; the will of the majority tends in the direction I have indicated, and any Government, whatever its character, is bound to be influenced by the consideration of that fact. There is another consideration upon which I should like to speak briefly. If this country is to have a defensive force at all, that defensive force must be efficient and must be adequate. There can be no middle course. We must either maintain no army at all or else we must agree that whatever army we do maintain should be maintained in a state of adequacy for its purpose.

I am well aware that one can never have any absolute guarantee of security. You can only have a relative guarantee of security—if such a term be permissible. If I felt the British Army, at its present strength, constituted a challenge to the rest of the world, I would be in favour of reduction of the British Army, but, personally, I am not convinced that the present strength of the British Army is a challenge to the other nations of the world. I am as much in favour of a policy of disarmament as any Member of this House, but I want a practical policy of disarmament. I do not believe that disarmament can be achieved by piecemeal and spasmodic efforts of the kind suggested in the Amendment. I wish disarmament to be sought for along the line of a consistent, regular policy and reached by mutual agreement among the whole of the countries concerned, and I do not believe there is any other practicable way by which the ideal can be realised. A good deal has been said as to the attitude of Christianity towards this perplexing problem. I do not think there can be any mistake as to what the real Christian attitude towards the problem must necessarily be. If the Christian attitude were adopted then the matter would be perfectly plain and simple. Christianity has no use for armaments of any kind, and a man who takes the Christian point of view can never, in any circumstances, advocate or defend a policy of armaments. But the trouble is that we are not a Christian nation. The average man in the street is not prepared to adopt the Christian principle in relation to this problem. Even the Christian churches are not prepared to adopt the Christian principle in relation to this problem.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if this nation were to take its courage in both hands and risk all the consequences of standing steadfastly by the Christian principle which it professes. I am not sure, but I am sometimes inclined to think that if one nation were prepared to do so, if one nation were so convinced of the truth of the central principle of Christianity, that it was prepared, voluntarily, to disarm, irrespective of what other nations did, it might be that by one such act, that nation would do more to convert the world to Christianity than all the previous centuries of Christian propaganda have been able to do. But I am not sure of that; the man in the street is not sure of it, and the man in the street is not prepared to take the risks which he believes would be involved in the pursuance of a policy of that sore. To-day we are compelled to look at this matter, not from the point of view of Christianity, but from the point of view of practical common-sense, always having regard to the fact that the people of this country will demand of Governments, whatever the character of those Governments might be, that adequate defence forces must be maintained. Moreover, there is this to be said—that the Labour party, which formed this Government, never subscribed to the view that this country ought to divest itself of all forms of armament, irrespective of general world-conditions and of what other nations might do. The position of the Labour party is, I believe, the perfectly common-sense position that, if disarmament is to be reached, it must be reached along a road along which we all travel in common, and it must be the result of mutual agreements between the whole of the peoples concerned.

In this matter, for a Labour Government, as for any other form of Government, there are two main responsibilities and obligations involved. A Labour Government is compelled to maintain defensive forces, because it owes a responsibility to its own country. At the same time it is compelled to seek the way of peace, because it owes a responsibility to humanity; and the Labour party is not likely to overlook either of these responsibilities. While we may not agree as to the methods by which this ideal of disarmament is to be reached, personally, I am clear in my own mind regarding this, that the practical way towards the realisation of the ideal of disarmament is the way that the Labour Government, I believe, is seeking to explore at this moment. I am prepared in this matter to believe that the Prime Minister of this country is genuine in his desire for peace, that he is resolutely and earnestly seeking to establish, or at any rate to contribute towards the establishment of, general world conditions in which this problem of armaments will be a problem capable of a safe and natural solution. After all, behind the problem of armaments there is always the problem of policy. If your policy is a bad policy, you cannot escape the heaping and piling up of the machinery of war; if your policy is a right policy, if it is a policy that seeks friendship, if it is a policy that seeks cooperation, then, in so far as you succeed in establishing that policy, you are helping to solve this great and perplexing problem of the world's armaments. It is because I hold that point of view strongly and sincerely that I am afraid I shall find myself unable to support the Amendment.

I only rise to add my voice to those on this side who have spoken against the Amendment, on the ground that it would be impossible for a discussion of this kind to go on if it were carried. In a great many countries there is not sufficient security. We are only able to discuss this matter as we are doing at the present time because there is a policeman over there, because there is another policeman outside, because there are policemen around the building, and because the country is guarded by a very adequate and efficient Navy and an adequate and efficient Army, and I venture to suggest that the hon. Members who have supported this Amendment are not quite right in their interpretation of Christianity. They have, at any rate, no particular claims to be the only interpreters of Christianity, and it seems to me that their claims are exaggerated when they endeavour to press their views on the Committee and to suggest that it is only their point of view which is the real point of view, and that people do not agree with them are heathens and beyond the pale. May I also suggest that the hon. Members very much exaggerate the horrors of war? I am perfectly aware of the horrors of war. I served during the whole of the War myself, and mostly at the front, but the horrors of peace in a slum are really worse to those who have eyes to see. The casualties in peace are worse than those in war, and there is no antithesis, as hon. Members try to make out, between what they call war and what they call peace, because there never has been in the world as yet a real condition of peace, in which it has been possible for the creative forces at man's command to be exercised for man's benefit.

9.0. P.M.

That is a fact which bears considerably upon this matter, but even if hon. Members were right in their interpretation of Christianity, not everyone who says he is a Christian always believes it. Perhaps hon. Members may have studied the works of a certain professor called Myers. I give this as an example of belief. He was making some investigations into the question of belief in immortality, and he stopped a deacon one day coming out of the church on Sunday, and said to him: "Deacon Jones, what do you think will happen to you when you die?" The deacon got very red in the face, shuffled about with his hymn book and so forth, and said, "Well, well, Professor Myers, I suppose I shall enter into eternal bliss, but I do wish you would not ask such unpleasant questions." That is really the attitude of a large number of people with regard to their religious convictions, and a great many people, I venture to say, do not share the interpretation of Christianity that has been put forward from these benches to-night. May I also suggest that this world does not consist entirely even of those who make a profession of the Christian belief? There are millions of people in China, and China at present is divided up into disordered camps waging war the one against the other under contending generals. There are many millions of people who profess Mohammedanism. Now, Mohammedanism makes an actual virtue of warfare and it is an actual certificate, as it were, of fitness to enter paradise for a Mohammedan to have killed an unbeliever. Fortunately, the Moslems no more believe in their religion than certain other people believe in theirs, so that there is no serious danger of a world war on that account.

That really brings us back very simply to the fact that what we have to calculate in this matter is not questions of abstract belief, on one side or the other, but fundamental human nature, on one side or the other. The Moslems are not as violent as their creed, neither are the Christians as gentle as their creed, and the consequence is that one has to deal, perhaps, with, let us say, more of an abstract scientific view than that professed by certain hon. Members this evening. What is required in this Debate is not only arguments, but a certain amount of medical diagnosis. What inspired the view of the hon. Members who have moved this Amendment? Is it really a conviction, or is it something in themselves, is it something which has happened to themselves How is it that hon. Members who are pacifists—I do not mean the particular hon. Members who moved this Amendment, but others—are in favour of a class war and of the Red Army in Russia? It is a very curious and significant fact—and I can vouch for it out of my own experience—that people who describe themselves, vis-à-vis with Germany, as pacifists have been very anxious to see a war brought about as between contending classes of the community. That seems to me to be as undesirable as—in fact, more undesirable than—a war against an alien nation.

I do suggest there is something deeper and more profound in this question than merely the motives which, as it were, gild the surface of this discussion. In fact, I believe that, fundamentally, the real and genuine Pacifist is a pathological phenomenon. There is something the matter both with his physiology and psychology, and what he requires far more than argument is psycho-analysis. But, really, I do not think that when you look back on the historical development of the world—I only ask you to look; I am not going to try to describe it to you—it must be realised that the world has progressed in civilisation alongside of war. It is not progress because of war. War has got greatly restricted, and even the last war was not as terrible as wars' have been in the past. It was more intense; it was more violent over a limited area, but if hon. Members will look at the great war epidemics which swept over the ancient world, those were actually in their effect greater than this last war, and I do consider it rather ridiculous to think that we who are responsible for the British Empire, responsible for the greatest Commonwealth of free nations' that the world has ever seen, should be prepared to throw all this into jeopardy for the sake of what I can only describe again as a pathological conviction in the minds of a few hon. Members. It is really ridiculous It is really fantastic, and it is, I am quite sure, one which will be repudiated by every section of this House. There is no danger whatsoever of this Amendment being carried. There is no danger of a majority of Members on this side of the House voting for the Amendment, because, after all, while we want peace, we do not intend that the security of our extraordinarily valuable organisation in this country, and our extraordinarily valuable organisation in the British Empire, shall be thrown away in order that a few people, whose ideas are very ill-balanced indeed, may be allowed to play ducks and drakes with what is the fruit of an evolution for many, many years in the past, and which holds out, in my opinion—and, I believe, in the opinion of very many hon. Members in this House—the greatest hopes for the benefit and improvement of the world.

It is many years since the Army Estimates have had the fresh winds blowing through this House, and through the debate, as they have to-night. As a rule, while the Army-Estimates Debates have been very interesting to the outsider, they have been rather dry; but to-night, at any rate, our two hon. Friends who have brought forward this Amendment have rendered a service to the House, in that, at least, they have stirred us up a little. One of the best speeches, to my mind, that has been made during the whole Debate was the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leeds (Mr. Stamford) as a maiden speech. It is not often we hear such a speech in this House by an old hand, let alone a maiden speech. I am sure for fine feeling, as well as fine conviction and fine ideas, that speech is a guarantee to us of good things to come from that direction. I want to put what I know is the Government position, as well as the Labour party position, upon this issue. The Mover and Seconder of the Amendment have made it quite clear that, while they are moving a reduction of 150,000 men, they are moving for the abolition of the British Army. They have been very frank about it. They have put forward their views, not only in a very sincere way, but, I should say, a very courageous way in this House, and we give them credit for all the best and finest feelings.

After all, what is the position of the Government? I say it is the same position that was laid down by the Labour Party Conference last year. I think it would be interesting to the Committee to know what that is. The hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Ayles) made it quite clear that he was out for disarmament, final and complete, in the midst of an armed world. Those were his words. Let me read the Resolution passed by the Labour Party Conference last year, because it is of interest: agreement. He talks about disarmament, complete and final, in the midst of an armed world. I submit that the two positions are, to say the least of it, inconsistent. The party, too, was tested upon the question of whether we should vote always against Navy, Army and Air Force Estimates or not. What did the party that is now the Government do? After some discussion, on a Motion suggesting that we should vote against Navy, Army and Air Force Estimates, somebody thought, perhaps, that the discussion was going not quite rightly, and therefore moved the previous question. The Conference said, "We will have no previous question about this. We face this issue," and by 3,000,000 votes to 800,000 a majority of over 2,000,000, Labour said that they would be prepared to vote Navy, Army and Air Force Estimates. That is the Labour party's position. We can agree with it or disagree with it, but it was arrived at in open conference, and, as I say, one of the Motions was moved by my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment to-night.

Will my hon. Friend permit me to ask him whether that Motion to vote against all the Service Votes was not supported by the present Under-Secretary of State for War?

I could not say now whether it was or whether it was not. All I know is that I have a copy of the Resolution here, and I have also the respective votes that were given. While I agree with the sincerity and courage of my hon. Friends—and, certainly, no one has more right than they to speak, for one served four years at the front, and the other hon. Member was prepared to go to prison for his views. [ Laughter. ] Oh, yes, although I went the other way, at least it should be said that that, too, requires courage. There are, however, hon. Members in this House who do not lack hope in looking forward to the promised land, where the swords shall be beaten into plough shares and the spears into pruning hooks. I question, too, if there are many in this House or in the country with thoughtfulness and intelligence, who have lived through all these recent years, and have not an abiding pain that is an irresistible urge for the abolition of armaments and the making of war upon war! How can we best attain that? I myself say that the way suggested in the Labour party's Conference resolution is the way—by mutual agreement. I think, also, that the Government has implemented that promise by taking steps to call an international conference for the purpose of discussing disarmament.

Before I finish I want to say to my hon. Friends behind me that it is agreed that war stirs up the passions. There are, I believe, men who went into action and never expected to get through. They have ineffaceable memories of the horrors of war which they would be happier if they could get rid of. When my hon. Friend the Member for North Bristol said that there could be no brotherly love in war, I differ somewhat. I am not going to say that war does not stir up all kinds of passions. All who know about it may freely admit that war lowers morale. Those who have been on active service know that very well. To say, however, that there is no brotherly love in war is wrong. I dare say my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) scarcely agrees with that. But there is a man who lives near to me who was awarded the Victoria Cross. For what? There was a poor fellow lying in a shell-hole 'between the lines with the hot sun upon him and crying for water. This man went over the top in daylight, facing the chances, taking water to that man, and lying with him till the night, when he brought him in. I reckon that that at least is some sign of brotherly love.

Innumerable instances could be given of comradeship in war. We all, I think, men of every party and of every view, long that that comradeship and fellowship could be extended to the nations, so that there might be mutual disarmament on a big scale in the world, so that wealth and production could be put to better account. However, in view of the position that the Government has always taken up, in view of the fact that the party have taken a very definite line on this question, I hope that my hon. Friends will not press this Amendment to a Division. If they do, we shall ask the Committee to show exactly what they think of it by voting against it. Let me echo the words that have been used by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, for I want to bear my testimony to this fact: that, if other countries feel they have a right to the means of defence we ought to have those means. Where would you have had a revolution by reason as during the last few weeks we have had without any trouble at all? It is one of the most marvellous testimonies to the strength of the Constitution and freedom that it makes possible happenings like those of recent times. It is true that Labour is not in power, but it is in office, and Labour will pursue its way with good will to all the nations. But if the position remains the same, then at least in comparison with the armies of other nations, some of whom have a million, others a million and a half of soldiers—I speak of Europe—while comparatively new nations which had no armies at all, having now 400,000 or 500,000—we may at least ask for a total of 161,000. I hope the House will vote this Amendment down.

I have seen some amazing Amendments put down by hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I think that this is the most amazing Amendment I have yet seen on the Paper during my short membership of the House of Commons. In fact I can hardly take it seriously. I go so far as to say that the Government, in allowing this discussion, is wasting the precious time of the House. What is the position of the British Armies to-day? We have, I believe, some 210,000 men under arms. If this Motion is carried it means that we shall only have 60,000 British troops to keep safe and free the greatest Empire the world has ever seen. That Empire, as we all know, is kept together and kept free, not so much by its Army, but by its loyalty to our August Sovereign King George V, and by the justice with which it has been ruled during past generations. But surely we must at least have a police force! I do not consider that 60,000 men is great enough, even to police the different nations that make up the British Empire. Since the War we have had trouble in India and in Egypt. We have to-day greater commitments than we ever had before, and yet a few hon. Members opposite want to abolish the British Army altogether. Surely that is an amazing thing. The hon. Member for North Bristol said that war was an unprofitable business. I wish I could say as much. War in the past has not proved to be an unprofitable business. Germany got fat on war. [An HON. MEMBER: "She lost her soul by war."] Russia made Germany the greatest Empire that the world has ever seen by war. She filched Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark by war, she took Silesia by war, she took Alsace-Lorraine by war, and up till 1914, when the hon. Member said she lost Tier soul by war, she got her riches by war and she made herself the second greatest Empire in the world. No, Sir, war proved to be a very profitable thing up to 1914 to the German Empire. The hon. Member for North Bristol and other hon. Members who have spoken for this Amendment seemed to think the soldier and the British soldier is a contemptible creature.

I want to make a very definite protest against any such misinterpretation of anything I have said as has been made. I am entirely opposed to what he has said.

The hon. Member talks a great deal about morality, morality in war. The soldier, unfortunately, is the man who has to make war. The hon. Member for North Bristol brought in religious arguments to show that the soldier was—

I think hon. Members will agree that the hon. Member for North Bristol when he spoke did infer that the soldier was a contemptible creature.

The hon. Member for North Bristol has just said he did not intend any such imputation, and the Noble Lord should not repeat that observation when he has already said he made no such statement.

I accept the explanation, and I will not continue that subject. But what the hon. Member did infer also, and what other hon. Members who have spoken inferred, was that we on this side of the House were in favour of war. We loathe war. Most hon. Members in this House, of my age, any way, have seen war, and we realise perhaps better than the older people what a loathsome and contemptible thing, what a scourge to Christianity war is. But we do realise that right is greater than might, that right is worth suffering and fighting for. What we are perfectly determined on this side of the House is that the British Army shall always fight for right and for nothing else.

It is all to the good that we should have a discussion of this kind in this House. I listened with interest to the hon. Members who put and seconded this Amendment and I was reminded of speeches I heard not so many months ago in the same terms and in the same language delivered by Members who are now sitting on the Front Government Bench, and I was wondering what had happened, what had come over them that in so short a time there should be such a complete change of front. There are hon. Members on the Front Government Bench now who made speeches along the same lines. [HON. MEMBERS: "Quote them!"] If you tempt me too far, I may quote them. It is well known that the attitude of a number of gentlemen who now sit on the Government Bench during the War and since the War was precisely the attitude now taken up by hon. Members.

On a point of Order. I think the hon. Member should give the names of the persons.

I would refer my hon. Friend to speeches of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and the Under-Secretary of State for Air.

That is merely a quibble. I deeply appreciate the sincerity of certain Members who are prepared to go all the way to state their views and put their: case before this House. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir Page Croft) two or three nights ago said he thought it was correct and right for the spiritual leaders of this country to pray for peace. It is no use praying for peace unless you are prepared to invest all your energy and ability towards the answer you expect to receive to that petition. It is no use praying for peace and piling up armaments. I want to make my position perfectly plain. While I disagree with the methods of hon. Members here, yet the end they may have in view is desired by hon. Members below the Gangway and by the vast majority of Members who sit on the benches opposite. Why it is that the world can get no nearer to peace? Why is it that we can all make speeches for peace year after year and the weary years roll by and the speeches find no audiences and awaken within the nations no response? Why is it, if everybody desires peace and speeches are made in this Chamber year by year, that the nations to-day are no nearer to that desirable end? Probably the hon. Member opposite, when he alluded to the fact that sometimes at any rate a war had been profitable, was putting his finger on the spot. There is the reason for war, the last War, or any war that has ever been waged in the world's history. You can talk about the wickedness of kings, princes, and Governments, but when you come down to it the real reason is the selfishness and wickedness of the human heart. Interpreted in excessive nationalisation, that is the reason for every war that has ever happened. I am afraid that you will not be able to abolish war entirely until you have changed the hearts of men and their attitude towards the whole business. What does that mean? Does it mean that we have to wait until the hearts of men are changed before we take any definite steps towards the abolition of war? It requires more than mere wickedness and selfishness to produce a catastrophe like that of 1914 and 1918. It requires years of careful preparation, the building up of gigantic armaments, the educating of men in the science of war, and the devotion of all the resources of a nation to the ends of war.

That is where we can come in at the present moment. I agree with a great deal of the speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Stoke (Lieut.-Colonel J. Ward), but I think he made one very big mistake when he referred to the police. Is that not what we want to come down to? What this House wants to do, and what the world wants, is to change their attitude, and do it in this way. This House should declare its readiness and its willingness now, in the face of the world, that it is ready to put war into the category of crime. I want to remind hon. Members opposite of those early days when men went about rioting and murdering. Haw did they cure that state of affairs? Simply by facing the facts and looking them in the face, and by saying that life was impossible on those terms, and by forming Committees of Public Safety, and saying that no man should be allowed to carry firearms unless he had a licence from the authorities. You went on from that to your town halls, your councils, and the like.

If you have a dispute with a man in the street to-day you have no right to murder him, and the policeman has no Tight to kill him. You take him before an ordinary Court, the case has to be tried, and you have to abide by the decision because murder is in the category of crime. There is no difference between that and the murdering of thousands on the Continent. You might put aerial warfare in the category of crime, and go on and progress until you have the world policed, and until you can settle your disputes by arbitration and an appeal to the League of Nations. That is the only way in which you can deal with war. The piling up of armaments and going along the line of building more cruisers only irritates people in other countries.

Is the hon. Member aware that this country has reduced the Army by 260,000 men as compared with pre-War figures, and is there any other country that has reduced its Army in anything like that proportion?

I am quite aware of that fact. What I say is that we should not merely reduce in that way, and then make a gesture and increase in another way. We should take the lead, and say that we are prepared to put war in the category of crime. Let us try that. It may break down and fail, but it would be a splendid failure, and that is the kind of gesture we want to give to the world to-night. With regard to the question of armaments in Europe, one hon. Member said it had been a profitable thing for many European nations. But if the hon. Member reads history, he will find that there never was any profit along the line of war. Just over 100 years ago Napoleon sat in his royal palace contemplating his army—his navy had been destroyed—and he was crying out "to India by the land route" and declaring that God was on the side of the big battalions and that he would steal the precious jewel from the crown of Britain. It was not, however, very long before his soldiers were absolutely buried in the snows of Russia, his dynasty ceased to exist, and his very crown went to the pawnbroker.

In 1914 another man swaggered through Europe with a gigantic war machine behind him, but it all came to naught. I do plead that this House should tell the nations of the world that it is prepared to set a different example, and that it is prepared to take up another line. [ Laughter. ] It is easy for hon. Members to laugh, but out yonder in France the day that burned itself into my mind was when I went out with my comrades and saw thousands of them go over the top amid the fire of the enemy, and hundreds of them were struggling back, and many were lying dead on the ground. I spent three days and three nights in this way, and was saturated with my own brother's blood. I declared that if I ever got back, I would devote all my energy and ability towards persuading my fellow-countrymen to such decisions that this kind of thing should be made impossible in the days that lay ahead. Have we nothing to suggest now but a cynical sneer for anybody who talks about peace? The time has come for us to put our strength into the peace movement. If the Parliaments of the world would devote one half of their time to producing the will to peace that they are devoting to preparing for war, the world would be a different place, and the League of Nations would come into its own.

I should like to say first of all, that those of us who put down this Amendment did so because we thought that this was the best and most effective manner to raise the whole question of armaments. The forms of this House, and the method by which the Estimates come before us, prevent us from having the comprehensive discussion on the whole subject that we should have liked, and so we are just taking the first opportunity the House has allowed us to have one night, or a portion of one night, for a discussion on the question of total disarmament. We have done that, and I think that those of us who put down this Amendment have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to the discussion. We have had the chance to put our point of view, and there is no doubt that the other side have had a very full and effective chance against us. It is true, as was said by the hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. Stamford), that our party and our Government are all against us on this, so far as the majority is concerned. We do not want to paint them white or to paint them red; we know that as a majority they are against us. But we also know that the man in the street at present is against us on the question of Socialism, and we know, too, that the man in the street is against Protection. We know these things by the fact that neither hon. Members opposite, nor hon. Members below the Gangway, nor we ourselves, have a majority in the House of Commons. We know that we shall have to do a very great deal more propaganda to get Socialism accepted, but that does not mean that we shall stop propaganda; it means that we shall do a great deal more. We are rather different from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. When something which we have advocated is not popular, we do not drop it and put it to rest; we go on with it. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Capital Levy!"] We have not buried the Capital Levy, and I have no doubt that many hon. Gentlemen opposite will Vote for it when it comes to be proposed.

The real point has not yet been made by anyone in this Debate. I have listened right through the Debate, having only been out for about a quarter of an hour—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—and it would be much better if everyone else stopped and listened. I wanted to hear the beet and the worst that was said, and I think there were three effective speeches. Two of them stood out particularly, namely, those of the hon. and gallant Member for Stoke (Lieut.-Colonel J. Ward) and the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague); but neither of those hon. Members, able as their speeches were, faced the argument that has been put forward. Our argument is that war is futile, that it has never settled anything, and never will settle anything. No one on any bench in this Chamber can say that the late War has settled anything in Europe. Europe is in a more disturbed condition to-day than before 1914. No one can for a moment deny that, instead of our getting peace as a result of that tremendous struggle, we are still without peace. I remember quite well some very poor men being sent to prison because during the War they made speeches saying, "This is not a war to end war; it is a capitalist war, and will end in more disaster and more war." Why were they sent to prison? Because the archbishops and bishops, the politicians and the editors, all united in saying to the young men, "Come forward on a great crusade to crush Prussian militarism and end war for good and all."

I do not say that the men who argued in that way were dishonest. We cannot claim that any of us in the House of Commons have a monopoly of honesty, or virtue, or anything else; we are all just ordinary, common or garden men—front benchers as well as ourselves. When you get down to bed-rock, we are just ordinary human beings. I do not say that the men who argued as I have mentioned were dishonest at all, but will anyone get up now and argue that that was a war to end war? Will anyone stand up on the other side and say it was a war in defence of a scrap of paper now? [ Interruption. ] Very well, then, I invite hon. Members to read, not any Socialist paper, but M. Paleologue's diary of the events at Petrograd, or Sir George Buchanan's diary of the events at Petrograd. Anyone who can stand up and say that the late War was a war merely to defend Belgium is saying something that his common sense ought to tell him is absolutely wrong. The fact is that we were plunged into that War because nations like individuals, were always struggling for markets and new markets, because of the commercial jealousy that existed between England and Germany, and also because the! French had made up their minds, with the aid of the Russian millions, that they were going to win back Alsace and Lorraine and to capture the Ruhr and the whole of the two sides of the Rhine. Anyone in any quarter of this Committee who denies that will deny what they know to be true.

On a point of Order. In view of the line that this Debate has taken, will it be in order for any hon. Member to reply to these allegations regarding the origin of the War?

I think the incursion into the origin of the War is clearly beyond the scope of the discussion. I think the hon. Member has already made he point; he must not develop it.

Do not, then, let anyone charge me with not proving what I say. I must, of course, bow to your ruling, but I think—

I am asked about Trotsky's Army. The question of the Red Army has been raised, and I think one of my right hon. Friends imagined he was getting it home on me that I was one of those who had supported the Red Army. It does so happen that I wrote a book, which hon. Members have never read—I do not blame them for that—but, certainly, with Lenin, Tchitcherin, and all the men I met in Russia, I stood there for what I stood in this House, namely, absolute and entire disarmament, and against force and violence, either for a revolution or for a national strike. Anyone who knows me knows that all my life I have taken up that attitude, and, therefore, the Red Army must not be thrown at me. I believe that any nation that depends on force is ultimately crushed by force. Further, what is the list of wars that have taken place in my own lifetime? I can give them in rotation. There was the Abyssinian War, there was the Ashanti War, there was the Zulu War, there were the wars with the Kaffirs, with the Boers and with Afghanistan—there have been in my lifetime four wars in Afghanistan, and not one of them settled anything. You have conquered Egypt, and you have just given back to Egypt her independence. You conquered the Sudan, and you are giving it back to Egypt. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] Yes, you need not worry; you are going to give it back to them. You have conquered Afghanistan, and Afghanistan to-day is a self-governing independent Power. I remember that when you were at war with Afghanistan the declaration was made, "We dare not allow this nation to be other than a buffer State, under the control of Great Britain," and you sacrificed tens of thousands of British lives in order to maintain that. Now it has all gone back again. I cannot go back to the last War except for this purpose, that at the end of it, instead of our being able to settle down to peace, we are settling down to more war. In the last Parliament I heard the late Air Minister, who is as good a man as any one in this House, say ho wished people could understand that the next war would be the most terrifying, horrible thing the world had ever seen. What is the good of telling me that war settles something, when the only way out is more war, more horror, more terrifying weapons and so on? If war could settle anything, things would have been settled long ago.

It is no use hon. Members telling us what will happen to us if we do not prepare. What has already happened? You lost a million lives in the last War and more than 2,000,000 were maimed, bruised and battered, and most of them are neglected by the community in our streets. [AN HON. MEMBER: "That is absolutely untrue!"] You cannot deny that there are 1,000,000 dead, and that over 2,000,000 are bruised, battered and disabled, and you cannot deny that large numbers of them and their dependants were absolutely flung on the scrap-heap and given nothing at all. You cannot deny that men who faced the horrors that have been spoken of are to-day in the workhouse casual wards and tramping hither and thither to get work. If that is so, what worse could have happened to the people of the country? You do not know. You could not be worse smashed up than by all this horror and misery. That is all that we know of. Masses of men and women died that you will never know of as the result of the War. That is what happened in this country. On the Continent 9,000,000 were killed and 30,000,000 wounded in one way or another. That is your own official record. If you could prove to me that one war had settled anything, I should think there was something in your argument and should reconsider my position. But I am here to-night to say:

Yes, and there, there too. It is at this time of night that the hon. and gallant Gentleman gets lively.

On a point of Order. I should like to ask if the hon. Member is in order in throwing insulting remarks across the floor of the House.

I am trying to. The hon. and gallant Gentleman in one respect is like me. We throw remarks—he does and I do—across the Chamber at one another. We ought not to do so, I admit, but when we do we ought to put up with whatever we get. I want to try to put to the Committee a point of view which probably is not shared by many hon. Members, but which I hold very strongly, and so that no one will think there is any self-righteousness about it, I am bound to try to say this. After all, if we are not going to give one another credit for believing the things we say, we ought to stop arguing with one another. When one speaks about religion, either here or in public meeting or even with one another, there is a certain amount of shamefacedness for the worst and the best of us, because we know how much we fall short of the ideals that we profess and that we should like to follow. In saying what I am now going to say, I would ask hon. Members to think of it from that point of view. I believe humanity is where it is to-day because it has not followed the teachings of the big religious teachers of the world. The biggest for most of us here is the One whose death we are going to celebrate in a week or two, and He was put to death because, in the supreme moment of His life, when apparently, it would have been easy for Him to save His life, He put on record this: part, is going forward or it is going backward. As I see it, this terrible prediction of what is going to be the result of the war in the air fills me with dismay for this civilisation. I have toiled, and many of you have toiled, to bring about social reform. Not always on the same lines, but we have always wanted to improve the condition of our people. I feel that all our work and all our energy will be thrown away unless we can stop this mad race of armaments, unless we can find some more excellent way.

People have laughed when we have said we want our country to lead the way. I think our country is the one which should lead the way. We are, I think, more intelligent and more capable than most other nations of the world. I believe the British going out into the world, opening up all the highways of the world, have performed a great service to humanity. Only if we are willing now that humanity as a whole shall benefit from what we have done shall we have benefited humanity. But because we have gone into all parts of the world, it seems to me it is not our duty but our privilege to make this gesture to the world, that we are willing that on every question between us and other people shall not go to the arbitrant of poison gas and bombs and machine guns but shall go to the arbitrant of reason. You may say we may be destroyed. It is true that I individually might be destroyed because there was no policemen, but no one proves that I am wrong or that the thing advocate is wrong by killing me. You only kill me, but you do not kill the truth I am trying to give utterance to. Therefore, I ask this House to consider this question, not merely from the point of view of what is practicable to-day, but let your minds go a little further out and see that the whole of mankind is hungering and thirsting for something better than domination, something better than guns, something better than poison gas. It is hungering and thirsting for that righteousness which Christ came to teach and died because he taught it. I do not believe the Gospel of Christ is impracticable, because men and women will not accept and try to live up to it. I am a Socialist, and I am in this House and in public life because I believe in the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount. I want them applied to everyday life, and I want my country, which I am proud to be a citizen of, to be the first country to run up the blood-red banner of Christ, and say, "All human life is sacred because of the incarnation of the incarnate Son of God."

I do not propose to follow all the wanderings of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He has just told us that he and his friends who put forward this proposal are very satisfied with the result. I can assure him that we on this side of the House are equally satisfied. The Government are never tired of explaining to the House that they do not possess a majority and that they are unable to carry through the larger Measures that they promised their supporters in the past; but that position has its advantages. When they do put forward proposals in the Estimates and elsewhere which are in themselves safe, they are secure in the support of this side of the House and of Members on the other side who sit below the Gangway. When occasions like this arise it has this disadvantage, that they have behind them probably the most persistent, as it is certainly the most eccentric and, I think, the most pugnacious form of opposition. The hon. Member for North Southwark (Dr. Haden Guest) and the Financial Secretary to the War Office provided, perhaps, the best answer to the speeches of the Mover and Seconder and supporters of this Amendment. The Member for North Southwark, in his interesting diagnosis of the reasons which led to this proposal being put upon the paper, suggested that it was a question rather of physcho-analysis. He was quite clear that, as far as he was concerned, if the matter rested in his hands, he would be prepared to certify his hon. Friends who sat behind.

I never listen to the Debates in this House on this question without thinking that hon. Members opposite profoundly misunderstand the views of those who sit on this side of the House. We have heard quotations to-night to the effect that war is futile, insane and utterly wasteful. Whoever denied it? Who denies it on this side of the House? All parties agree as to the ideal, which is to progressively substitute the force of law for the law of force. The real question on which we are divided is not that. The question on which we are divided is whether, in the pursuit of that ideal, it is necessary to be equipped with military forces or not. We on this side of the House believe that, if our influence is to be practical and decisive in this question and in others, the power behind us must not be negligible. We submit that on the supposition that we are living in a world in which force still prevails. We are perfectly willing to agree that if you could have progressive and universal disarmament it is a good ideal to pursue. It is an ideal we all pursue, but the point is that it must be progressive and universal and not sudden and unilateral. It is not to be this country only which is to be the first to disarm. " Que messieurs les assassins commencent." I believe if you examine history you will discover that one of the most prolific causes of war in the past has been the fact that, at moments of crisis, this country has had insufficient forces ready and available for service in the field. I do not believe that late War was any exception to that rule. The Noble Lord the Member for Newark (Marquees of Tichfield) was contradicted when he was stating that in a material sense you could gain by war. I venture to submit that that is a proposition that cannot be disputed. If you look into causes of war in the past, you will find that a second main cause is the desire for territorial aggrandisement. It is curious that no war has yet been waged but as a result of it territory has passed. The late War, again, was no exception to that rule. It has been stated on the other side that force avails nothing, but without force the whole of France would have been in ruins to-day, instead of only the North-East corner. For that matter, if Germany had not sustained very large fighting forces, it might well have been that Germany herself would have fallen a more ready prey, and as some of us think would have been desirable, Berlin itself would have been occupied and we should have been further on the road to peace than we are to-day.

I have some slight advantage over hon. Members opposite on this subject, in that I was one of the British delegates at the Hague Peace Conference in 1907, when I heard this question discussed and knew something of what was in the minds of the various delegates. As a result of what I saw there, I ventured before the War broke out to draw the attention of my countrymen, in the public Press, to a few of the points which I am now mentioning. I, at least, unlike some hon. Member opposite, pointed out to my countrymen that if war ensued between this country and Germany, it would not be merely the force we then had available that would be required, it would not be the force that Lord Roberts was then asking for, namely, half a million men, that would be required, and that they would not be required, as he stated, for the defence of these shores. I stated that the number of men that would be required would be limited only by the number of the manhood of the Empire, after the vital industries of the Empire had been provided for. I pointed out, too, that the War, when it came to be waged, would be waged in Flanders, where it was waged, and not for the defence of these shores.

Therefore, I can, at least, claim that what I am saying to-night is not a newfound view as a result of the War. I wish that some could learn from the lessons of the War. The history of this country shows that after every war has been fought there has always been those who come forward, if not with this very Amendment, yet with some Motion on all fours with this. I wrote in 1909, five years before the War, when hon. Members might have listened to me but did not: Palestine, have not the Mandates which we receive and had to accept from the League of Nations increased our responsibilities? Is the independence of Belgium no longer a concern of this country, or the independence of Portugal, which is guaranteed by this country, or the independence of Afghanistan, which the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) stated to be newly guaranteed? Is the peace of Europe so profound that we in this country can be without any anxiety as to the future? What of the obligatory garrisons in this country, our naval arsenals and our defended ports? Do they to-day need any less force than they did before the War?

When this question was taken in Committee in 1913–14, just before the War, the number for which the House was asked to give approval was 186,000, of which 162,000 were available abroad. To-day we are only taking 161,600, less 4,100, which the Indian forces provide in the Middle East, and the total for which the Government is asking is less by 30,000 men than it was before the War. You have greatly increased responsibilities and much diminished forces, and this is the time when hon. Members opposite put down this Motion for a further reduction. I suggest that so long as general disarmament is not accepted as a general principle, by all the countries in the world, so long as armaments are maintained on the same scale as that on which they are maintained to-day, so long as the causes for war exist as they exist in the world to-day, and as they have existed, then there are limits beyond which no responsible statesman should go in reducing the forces of this country. I rejoice that we have to-day on the Front Bench of the Government men who, whatever may have been their political opinions, are to-day as staunch as we ourselves in providing adequate forces for the protection of the community.

I am anxious to have an opportunity of saying a word or two in reference to this Amendment, to which my name is appended on the Order Paper, and for this reason. When I attached my name to this particular Amendment I had no intention of raising, under the Amendment, the fundamental differences as between the pacifist and the militarist. It was merely to have an opportunity of putting before the House that, in these days, at the conclusion of a war, with a Labour Government in office, a very drastic reduction should be made in our expenditure on the armed forces of one kind or another. This Labour Government came into office with a very strong mandate for a world peace. We occupy among the nations of the earth, and among the nations of the world, particularly with the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister as Secretary for Foreign Affairs, a strong position enabling us to go into national councils, and to argue with moral force for an agreed reduction of armaments all round. That mandate is being steadily destroyed, by bringing into this House Estimates for naval preparations, for air preparations, and now for military preparations, which at once, in all the nations of Europe, set up a fear that this new British Government is as anxious to maintain and extend the policy of British Imperialism and conquest as any of its predecessors. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] The approval that has just been given by hon. Members opposite seems to indicate that they also believe that they can receive as good an Imperialistic policy from this Government as they would get from their own front bench. I do not believe that; I do not want to believe that.

We were returned here, as practically every Member of this House was returned, to secure world peace. I agree that hon. Members opposite also want world peace. They want to approach it by what they call a sane way, while the hon. Gentlemen who have supported this Amendment are supposed to be taking the insane way. I do not understand the meanings of the terms sanity, and insanity as used by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Every one says that it is an insane thing to slaughter people, and yet if you suggest a policy that bars out that insane method we are told it is an insane policy. I shall not say, as has been said by some of my hon. Friends in support of the Amendment, that I do not believe in force. I cannot say that. But I can say that I believe that force should always be exercised with the utmost restraint, for the best purposes and for purposes that are to the general advantage of the persons using it. One right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench seems to be immensely amused. I will show him where the humour comes in in a minute. To use the arguments of the police does not really affect the question of preparedness for war. I believe in the police force. I think they should exercise their power with the greatest restraint and discretion. I believe in force as represented in this House by the Serjeant-at-Arms. I contend that he also should exercise his force with the greatest restraint, and with even greater discretion than has sometimes been used in the past. But hon. Members on this side were told by hon. Members opposite that the men who would not fight for their country or for their homes are no men at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I advise hon. Members not to say "Hear, hear," until they are quite sure that they mean that.

I come from Scotland. Half of Scotland is owned by 50 people, and a quarter of Scotland is owned by 12 families, very few of them Scottish. Is that my country, Is that the country for which I have to fight? I believe that the working class of Scotland should fight for their country, but against these foreign families, French, "Scottish," German, Italian and all sorts. There is nothing to prevent a German from owning half of the North of Scotland—even to-day after the War.

I tell you I would fight for my own purposes, and if you say that the working classes of Scotland should fight to get Scotland I am with you absolutely up to the hilt. It is said, "You should fight for your homes." We have pleaded here night after night in this Parliament and the last Parliament to secure for the people of the city of Glasgow the right to live securely in single-apartment or two-apartment dwellings. We pleaded for that security and we have not got it even yet. I think those people should fight for those miserable homes, but it is not Germans or Frenchmen or Russians they will have to fight, but you people here—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—it is the landlords of Scotland they will have to fight. Do you approve of this philosophy of force as I am propounding it? I await an answer from the serried ranks across the Floor. Do you believe in that philosophy? I do, and I warn our Front Bench that unless they secure the homes of the people of Glasgow, I will show force to them, in the streets of Glasgow defending those homes.

I would remind the hon. Member that we are discussing the Army Vote.

It is the Army Vote, but I am afraid it is too late in the day to seek to limit this discussion within very close bounds. With all respect, Mr. Chairman, I cannot honestly go to those people of mine, who have no country and no homes, and ask them to spend £45,000,000 in protecting their country and their homes. I cannot do it and I will not do it. In any case this figure is not being defended by anybody as an Army that will be of any use in a war. Nobody has defended this figure of 160,000 men. The most they claim for it is that it is a police force for far parts of the Empire and the nucleus of an army in a possible future war—the nucleus around which you can collect a greater force—but you will have to collect that force within a week or two. What is more important than having men drilled in regiments and wearing uniforms is that we should have the men—men of sound physique, of clear intellect, of fighting spirit. These are the essentials of an army—not the uniforms and not even the rifles. It is the man power that is essential. Yet I find that last year 100,000 babes died in this land before they reached the age of one year. Even from a military point of view you should have seen to it that those babes were given a chance to live. You are not spending any more on education. No more has been estimated for education this year than was spent last year, and yet you say you want an army of intelligencce and physique. Start there. Make up your minds you are going to have a nation every citizen in which is fit to fight—every one of them fit to be a soldier—and then try to frame your policy so as to see that he will never need to be a soldier.

The Committee has had a unique discussion. This House before to-night has at different times discussed the limitation of armaments. Now, for the first time in its history, it has discussed disarmament, and the contribution which my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has just made is somewhat inconsistent with the general tendency of the arguments that have been put forward from the same side of the House.

The hon. Member for Bridgeton is frankly not a pacifist. He believes in force. He would believe, in certain circumstances, in civil war, as I understand it, if there were good cause shown for such civil war, and, as I understand it, he supports the abolition of the Army at the present moment only because the people of this country have no country to fight for and no homes to defend, but, on the other hand, when they have obtained possession of those homes, when they have homes to defend, he will then, I understand, consider the reconstitution of the Army, possibly on a conscript basis, for such purposes as then seem good in his eyes. That seems to me to be a doctrine of conditional demilitarisation, but it is not the pacificism which has been propounded by the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, nor is it the pacificism of my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). I rather think that the hon. Member for Bridgeton's incursion into this Debate was not so much for the purpose of illuminating the problem of defence, or of pacificism as against militarism, as for the purpose of throwing a light upon certain social conditions in this country, and propagating the views which he can so eloquently express and which he so sincerely and consistently holds. I prefer, therefore, to let his speech stand by itself, and to deal with certain other aspects of the discussion in which the Committee has been engaged.

It is obvious, I think, on all hands that if we are to discuss this question in relation to the defensive needs of the Empire and to the reponsibilities which are cast upon our defensive forces, on that basis there is a case neither for a reduction of the Army nor for the destruction of the Army, as proposed in this Amendment. I think everybody, in all parts of the House, will be agreed that in post-War conditions this country has heavier responsibilities than those which were imposed upon it before the War. We have now Iraq and Palestine, we have certain other tropical possessions in Africa, and there are possessions in Australia, which are assumed to require defence, and there is no doubt that all military authorities are agreed that, owing to these new acquisitions of territory, the strategic position of the Empire for purposes of defence is much weaker than it was before the War. [An HON. MEMBER: "Singapore!"] I am not arguing about Singapore at all, but in regard to the acquisitions that we have made since the War. Singapore has no relevance to that at all. I had in mind, in particular, Iraq and Palestine, which are new acquisitions, and which have undoubtedly weakened the strategic position of the Empire, so that from this side of the House the case has never been argued from the point of view of the needs of the Empire. It has been argued entirely on general principles. My hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley has based his case against the retention of the Army entirely on the contention which he has put forward that war never settles anything. I think that that is a general proposition which is unsupported by history. Of course, it is possible to argue that never is anything in this world settled at all, and, if that be the basis upon which he uses the word "settled," then he may have a case made out for his position.

My hon. Friend, with his usual acuteness, has selected one of the cases which I had in my mind, and, as a matter of fact, I think the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) might very well discuss that matter with the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. I am afraid it might reveal a further division in the ranks of the Socialist party. Such a proposition has really no relevance to the discussion at all. There is no doubt that there are many wars in history which may be said to have settled both local and world conditions for long periods. [An HON. MEMBER: "No one denies that!"] If that is not denied, what is the sense of the general proposition that war never settles anything? Take the American Civil War. It destroyed slavery in the United States for ever. [An HON. MEMBER: "There are worse slaves than ever!"] That is a case in point, and there have been certain other things settled. It was settled in the 17th Century that the Spanish monarchy was not, to predominate Europe. It was settled in the 19th Century that France was not to dominate Europe, and it was settled at the beginning of the 20th Century that Germany was not to dominate Europe. These are all things that have been settled by war, and I think he would be a hasty man, indeed, who would assert that, so far as we can see in the immediate future, it may not be necessary to have other things settled by war in the future. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the five cruisers?"] I was intentionally keeping off that. I knew it was a tender subject with hon. Members above the Gangway. I had a theory, when I saw this Motion down, that the 14 Gentlemen, who had put their names against it, had decided that, having voted for five cruisers, there was no need of an Army at all. Having listened to the Debate, I have discovered that they did not put their opposition to the Army on such narrow grounds. It was based, indeed, on a wider and more general proposition. I have dealt with one part of my hon. Friend's proposition that war never settles anything. I think I have shown by a few examples that it has settled something. Then the hon. Member referred to the causes of war, particularly to the causes of the late War. He referred to the struggle for markets, to commercial rivalry, and to a desire for territory. [An HON. MEMBER: "And capitalism!"] Undoubtedly all these were in operation in causing the late War, but I would not put it just as the hon. Member who has interrupted has put it. A Socialistic State would be as anxious for markets as a capitalistic State. I remember the late Mr. Keir Hardie admitting that in public debate. It is an arguable matter. I do not think we need be led astray for the moment. I was dealing with the proposition put forward by my hon. Friend to the fact that disbanding and destroying the British Army is not going to put an end to competition, commercial rivalry, or the desire for territory. You are going to have all these motives in operation in the future as in the past, and if the British Empire alone disbands its Army that will only be a further inducement to other countries to make use of such forces as they have at their disposal to enrich themselves at our expense.

My hon. and gallant Friend desires me not to forget that to-morrow. I have always argued these questions on this basis, and the needs of national defence on general grounds. When I spoke a fortnight ago I confined myself strictly to the defensive needs of the Empire; it will be on that footing that the question will be argued on this side of the House. It is on that footing we are arguing it now. Suggestions have been made that Great Britain should lead the way, and that this is an opportunity for a great moral gesture. I am getting rather sick of that phrase. I am thinking that if statesmen would cease talk of a religious kind and give a little more time, for example, to putting their high ideals into operation more in administration and in legislation it would be a great deal better both for them and for the country. I speak generally of statesmen, and I thank God that the leader of the Liberal party never addresses religious gatherings. [An HON. MEMBER: "So much the better for religion."]

I am speaking generally of statesmen. It has been said that Great Britain should lead the way. As a matter of fact it seems to me that in many respects since the War Great Britain has given the lead, and has done more than any other State in the world in this movement for reduction—both the Government which has been in existence since the Armistice and the present Government. I think that should be an admission to their credit. The Army has been cut down, the Navy has been cut down, and the Air Force has been cut down. Conscription was abolished. That is a record to which no other European country can point. We are entitled to the credit for that gesture. Whether it is a moral gesture or not I will not say. There has been little response. There has been a Washington Conference, but while in some respects the Washington Conference was successful, there were other effect's of that gathering which gave the advocates of disarmament some grounds for congratulation. If we take the prospect in relation to our aerial armaments and in relation to certain forms of naval warfare, I think conditions are now resuming an aspect such as both this country and other countries were familiar with before the War. Are you going to improve this by abolishing the British Army?

I do not know whether my hon. Friends above the Gangway are going to divide on this Amendment or not. I am quite prepared to await the issue. I usually divide myself when I put down a Motion, even when my Seconder deserts me. Certainly if there is a Division it will be interesting to see the number of hon. Members who are prepared to leave this country entirely defenceless in the present state of the world. I believe that will be a gesture. It will be a gesture on the part of a considerable section of a great party in this House, and as that party has assumed a great importance in the eyes of the rest of the world, we shall be able to ascertain exactly the value of that gesture as affecting the opinions and action of other countries. For myself, I am somewhat sceptical as to what the result will be. I believe that to approach the question of disarmament in this way this country would be making a profound mistake, and that any Government in this country which attempted to do this would have very short shrift indeed; not only the present Government, but any Government likely to be formed in the course of the next generation. This is a thing which may be useful for propaganda purposes in certain parts of the country when dressed up in a certain way, as it has been. There is no harm in having it dressed up. None of us likes to expose all our arguments in their naked absurdity, and I am surprised that my hon. Friend objects to the ordinary decencies of dress in that respect. I believe it may be useful from all those points of view, but at the same time put from the public and the international point of view, in the present condition of the world, it is an entirely mischievous thing. The hon. Member for West Bermondsey (Mr. Kedward) made a very eloquent speech, and he spoke of the necessity of a change of heart. Undoubtedly that is the first condition of any real progress being made. It may be obtained by the Parliament and Government taking up a clear line with regard to international relations and disputes. If any one-Government in any country throws its influence on the side of peace, and makes it unmistakeable that it intends to use the League of Nations and make it efficient, a great advance will be made in improving the international atmosphere, and in that way there will be a greater hope of an advancement towards disarmament than can be offered by any such Amendment as that which we are discussing.

It is quite true that my attitude here has frequently been one of opposition, but I am supporting the Government tonight, as I have supported them on several other occasions. I heard an eloquent speech from the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague), with which I largely agreed, supporting the policy of the Government, and I do not think there has been any answer to that speech from the Labour Benches. We have had references to religion. In the first place it is well known that it is historically true that international morality lags far behind individual morality. As individuals within the State we have for many centuries advanced beyond the stage of private war, but nations are still at that stage. There are many statesmen, not only in this country but in other countries, who have openly avowed that in dealings between nations the rules of conduct which should direct men in their relations one with another no longer apply. The proposition I put, that international morality lags behind individual morality, is absolutely true. Let us test individual morality. Has it now been raised to the standard of the Sermon on the Mount? Will hon. Members make it the standard of their action towards their neighbours? How many hon. Members when smitten on one cheek turn the other also? I have never observed it anywhere. Indeed, I find that some of the most belligerent among hon. Members are those who are loudest and most sincere in their pacifist professions. Nor do we offer, to the gentleman who takes our coat, our cloak also. These things have not arrived in individual morality. I contend that, if we take individual morality, there is no section of the House, there is no body of individuals in it, who can truthfully assert that they have risen to the standard of the Sermon on the Mount, and in these circumstances it is simply an absurd futility to talk, in these days, of expecting the nations of the world to have their conduct governed by that sermon.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

Question put accordingly, "That a number, not exceeding 11,600, be maintained for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 13; Noes, 347.

Division No. 28.]

AYES.

[11.2 p.m.

Buchanan, G.

Nichol, Robert

Welsh, J. C.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Scrymgeour, E.

Wilson, C. H. (Snemeld, Attercliffe)

Hardie, George D.

Scurr, John

Windsor, Walter

Lansbury, George

Sherwood, George Henry

Maxton, James

Turner, Ben

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mr. Thurtle and Mr. Ayles.

NOES.

Ackroyd, T. R.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Harland, A.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Cope, Major William

Harney, E. A.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Costello, L, W. J.

Harris, Percy A.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Cove, W. G.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Hayday, Arthur

Alexander, Brg.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.)

Crittall, V. G.

Hayes, John Henry

Alstead, R.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Page

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Ammon, Charles George

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Atholl, Duchess of

Darbishire, C. W.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Davidson Major-General Sir J. H.

Hindie, F.

Baker, W. J.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Hirst, G. H.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Barclay, R. Noton

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hobhouse, A. L.

Barnes, A.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

Batey, Joseph

Dawson, Sir Philip

Hodges, Frank

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Deans, Richard Storry

Hoffman, P. C.

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Betterton, Henry B.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Birkett, W. N.

Duncan, C.

Hogge, James Myles

Black, J. W.

Dunn, J. Freeman

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Blundell, F. N.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Bonwick, A.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern)

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Egan, W. H.

Huntingfield, Lord

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Elveden, Viscount

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Briant, Frank

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Isaacs, G. A.

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Falconer, J.

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Broad, F. A.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Ferguson, H.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

Jephcott, A. R.

Brunner, Sir J.

Foot, Isaac

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Buckie, J.

Franklin, L. B.

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Bullock, Captain M.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Burman, J. B.

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Gilbert, James Daniel

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Gillett, George M.

Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Kedward, R. M.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Gorman, William

Keens, T.

Cassels, J. D.

Gosling, Harry

Kenyon, Barnet

Chapple, Dr. William A.

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Charleton, H. C.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Lamb, J. O.

Church, Major A. G.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lane-Fox, George R.

Clarke, A.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Laverack, F. J.

Clarry, Reginald George

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Law, A.

Clayton, G. C.

Groves, T.

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Climie, R.

Grundy, T. W.

Lawson, John James

Cluse, W. S.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Leach, W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lee, F.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Lessing, E.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Linfield, F. C.

Compton, Joseph

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Livingstone, A. M.

Comyns-Carr, A. S.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Loverseed, J. F.

Lowth, T.

Rattan, P. W.

Stranger, Innes Harold

Lumley, L. R.

Raffety, F. W.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Lunn, William

Raine, W.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

McCrae, Sir George

Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Sunlight, J.

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Raynes, W. R.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

M'Entee, V. L.

Rea, W. Russell

Tattersall, J. L.

Mackinder, W.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

McLean, Major A.

Remer, J. R.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Remnant, Sir James

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay),

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Rendall, A.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Rentoul, G. S.

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Maden, H.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Tillett, Benjamin

Makins, Brigadier-General E,

Richards, R.

Tinker, John Joseph

March, S.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Marley, James

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Tout, W. J.

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Ritson, J.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

Robertson, T. A.

Viant, S. P.

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Vivian, H.

Mills, J. E.

Romeril, H. G.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Ropner, Major L.

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

Mond, H.

Rose, Frank H.

Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Montague, Frederick

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Royce, William Stapleton

Warne, G. H.

Morris, R. H.

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Mosley, Oswald

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.)

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Savery, S. S.

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Muir, Ramsay (Rochdale)

Seely H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern)

Weir, L. M.

Murray, Robert

Seely, Rt. Hon. Maj.-Gen. J.E.B. (I.ofW.)

Wells, S. R.

Murrell, Frank

Sexton, James

Weston, John Wakefield

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Shepperson, E. W.

Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

Naylor, T. E.

Shinwell, Emanuel

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Wignall, James

O'Grady, Captain James

Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Oliver, George Harold

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)

Oliver, P.M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Simpson, J. Hope

Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Palmer, E. T.

Smillie, Robert

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Pattinson, S. (Horncastie)

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Wintringham, Margaret

Penny, Frederick George

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Snell, Harry

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Perring, William George

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Perry, S. F.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Spence, R.

Wright, W.

Philipson, Mabel

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Phillipps, Vivian

Stamford, T. W.

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Pilkington, R. R.

Stanley, Lord

Ponsonby, Arthur

Starmer, Sir Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Potts, John S.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Kennedy.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Vote on Account

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £18,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for defraying the Charges for Army Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, namely:

Heads of Cost.

Amount required.

£

Head I.-Maintenance of Standing Army

10,000,000

Head II.-Territorial Army and Reserve Forces

2,000,000

Head III.-Educational, &c., Establishments and Working Expenses of Hospitals, Depots, &c

2,000,000

Heads of Cost.

Amount required.

£

Head IV.—War Office, Staff of Commands, &c.

500,000

Head V.—Capital Accounts

800,000

Head VI.—Terminal and Miscellaneous Charges, &c.

700,000

Head VII.—Half - pay, Retired-pay, Pensions, &c.

2,000,000

Total to be voted

18,000,000"

Resolutions to be Reported To-morrow: Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Indian Affairs

Ordered,

"That so much of the Lords Message [ 12th March ] as communicates the Resolu- tion, That it is desirable that a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to examine and report on any Bill or matter referred to them specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider, with a view to reporting, if necessary, thereon any matters relating to Indian Affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India, be now considered."—[ Mr. Griffiths ].

So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.

Resolved, "That this House doth concur with the Lords in the said Resolution."—[ Mr. Griffiths. ]

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Ramsgate Lifeboat

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]

I desire to raise the question of the refusal of the Board of Trade to grant an inquiry into the case of the Ramsgate lifeboat. Hon. Members will have noticed in the papers recently that an inquiry into certain incidents in connection with the wreck which took place on the Goodwin Sands was asked for by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. A question was asked by the hon. Member for Newcastle as to why the Board of Trade did not grant an inquiry. The answer given was, that it appeared, from the position in which the anchor cable of the lifeboat was afterwards found, that the lifeboat approached the wreck itself and the Board of Trade came to the conclusion that there was no evidence of want of diligence on the part of the coxswain and crew and consequently the expense of an inquiry would not be justified. The point is that the Coroner at the inquest made certain most unfounded allegations against the lifeboat crew—one of the most gallant crews on the whole of our coast. The coxswain of the crew had been in the service of the institution for 35 years, and had taken part in most gallant rescues. The Coroner was a man of no nautical experience, so far as I am aware, and with no expert assistance, and he took it upon himself to make these statements at the inquest. In the "Morning Post," the "Daily Express," and the "Evening Standard" of the 26th February, it was reported that, before the inquest started, the Coroner said to the coxswain:

"Whatever you do, you must realise what a lamentable failure you made of this."

I have a verbatim report of the inquest, and at the inquest he went on to remark to the coxswain:

"You must realise the lamentable failure you made of it. You went there with the express purpose of saving life, and you got close to the vessel."

The absurdity of the coroner's remarks is evident to anyone who knows anything of the sea. It was impossible with the heavy sea for a boat to go alongside the ship. The mast only was above water. The sea was washing clean across the vessel, which was then submerged to the extent of about six feet. Any seaman could have told the coroner that it was impossible to get a boat alongside at such a time. Actually the tug of the lifeboat left the harbour 40 minutes after the alarm, which was not bad seeing that the tug had to raise steam. There is the most passionate resentment not only in Ramsgate but throughout the whole Isle of Thanet with regard to the coroner's remarks, and the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet, who is unable to be present, asked me to bring the subject forward to-night and to express the general indignation which is felt, and this resentment on behalf of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and its expert advisers I entirely share. I hope that the Board of Trade will be able to make their reasons again clear for not having granted the inquiry which was requested.

As one who has had to do with lifeboat work for 35 years, I cordially support the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. This boat has one of the most distinguished records in life-saving in the whole of Great Britain. The coxswain, as has been said, has been in the lifeboat for 36 years. Whether or not it was impossible to get alongside does not matter. The fact is that the lifeboat went close to this mast, and in this terrific gale it was quite impossible to see that there were survivors on the mast. Some think it was because the survivors were wrapped in a bit of a sail. What does stand out is that in a whole gale of wind this boat went out on to the Goodwin Sands, and only those who have been through any gale will realise what this means for those gallant men, who serve practically voluntarily—for the remuneration they get is very small. It is a cruel thing that a coroner, inexperienced in nautical matters, should cast an aspersion upon a very gallant body of men who daily and hourly risk their lives in order to serve others.

At this late hour it is impossible to say very much, and I am sure neither the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) nor the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) will desire me to offer comments upon the comments of the Coroner. That would be improper for me in this position. At the same time, I welcome the opportunity which has been taken of drawing attention to the fact that the Board of Trade did make inquiry, through their technical officers, as to the circumstances of this unfortunate happening, and they were perfectly convinced, on the advice of their officers, that there was no need for the Board of Trade to hold an inquiry. Nothing came to light to show evidence either of want of diligence or of want of seamanlike qualities on the part of the coxswain or the crew of the lifeboat.

As far as the Board of Trade is concerned, the matter rests there. We do not think it necessary for the Board of Trade to hold an inquiry in these circumstances. It is very peculiar that in this calamity the lifeboat should have been able, as it was, in the teeth of a gale, to get into such close proximity to the vessel. These unfortunate fellows were on the mast and had wrapped themselves in the sail for protection, and it is quite conceivable, in rough seas and a heavy gale, that it was almost impossible to detect any signs of life. The peculiar thing is that apparently, perhaps because of the gale, no sound of any kind, neither a hail from the men on the mast nor anything else, reached the men in the lifeboat. The fact that the crew of the lifeboat made every effort to get to the scene of the wreck and discover if any lives were there to be saved, is proved by the fact that they put their anchor down but had to withdraw again, and when the motor boat went out it picked up the anchor which had been left. As far as the Board of Trade and the Government are concerned, we have every admiration for and every desire to support the magnificent voluntary work which has been undertaken by the National Lifeboat Institution. We can quite understand that there has been a considerable amount of anxiety since the coroner's inquiry, because of what has transpired, but we are confident that when the facts fire known to the public at large, the great Royal National Lifeboat Institution and the men who so gallantly sacrifice themselves again and again in the interests of humanity will not suffer.

Are you going to deal with the coroner for making these remarks?

It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.