House of Commons
Tuesday, March 18, 1924
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Member Sworn
The following Member took and subscribed the Oath:
Harper Parker, esquire, Borough of Stoke-on-Trent (Hanley Division).
Private Business
London, Midland, and Scottish Railway (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
Read a Second time, and committed.
Grampian Electricity Supply Bill,
"to confer further powers upon the Grampian Electricity Supply Company; and for other purposes," presented, and read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Bills of Lading (United States)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the action of the United States Shipping Board in imposing a clause in their bills of lading giving them the right to take their cargo back to America and discharge it at some port in that country, in which event their responsibility would cease; whether he is aware of the inconvenience which would be caused to traders in those cases, in the event of labour troubles here, if they accepted drafts against bills of lading; and whether he will make representations to the United States Shipping Board, and also to other shipowners who are inclined to imitate this example, against these practices?
My attention has been called to the terms of a strike clause which, it is stated, has been proposed by the United States Shipping Board for insertion in bills of lading. On the information at present before me, the matter is not one in which the Board of Trade can interfere.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this clause is insisted on it will cause great inconvenience?
I assume that it would cause some inconvenience, though I cannot help thinking that the apprehensions are somewhat exaggerated. At any rate, we have no exact information as to what the clause is.
If I put down a question later on, will the right hon. Gentleman meantime inquire?
I would be glad if the hon. Gentleman would communicate with me on the matter.
Census of Production
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to undertake the census of production for 1924; and what it is anticipated will be its cost?
Yes, Sir, it has been decided to proceed with this inquiry. It is estimated that the total charges to be met in carrying it out will amount to about £115,000, spread over the next four financial years.
Trade Marks (China)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the promulgation by the Chinese Government of a trade marks law which in its present form will seriously prejudice British trading interests in China; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
His Majesty's Government are fully conversant with, and have given careful consideration to, the new Chinese Trade Marks Law. They are now in communication with the Chinese Government as regards those provisions of the law which affect British trade interests in China.
Pig Iron
asked the President of the Board of Trade what were the average stocks of pig-iron carried before the War in the British Isles and what are the average stocks to-day?
I regret that since the War no statistics are available which would enable me to give the information desired by my hon. Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the figures for the period before the War? I can tell him what the figures were after the War.
Wreck on Goodwin Sands
(Ramsgate Lifeboat.)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether a public inquiry by the Board into the wreck of the "Lord Hamilton" on the Goodwin Sands has been refused, and, if so, on what grounds; whether he is aware that such an inquiry is widely demanded in East Kent to meet resentment felt at the criticism of the crew of the Ramsgate lifeboat, which rendered assistance, made by the coroner who inquired into the death of a member of the crew of the "Lord Hamilton," who was drowned before the lifeboat could reach the ship?
I would refer to the statement made last evening by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the coroner had any evidence before him which justified him in making the remarks which he did at the inquest?
I am not aware of any such evidence on this subject, but the coroner is an officer over whom the Board of Trade has no jurisdiction.
Mail Steamers (Foreign Ports of Call)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if steps can be taken to have British passenger ships in the North Atlantic trade, enjoying British mail subsidies, make their first port of debarkation in England instead of foreign countries?
I have been asked to answer this question. The British steamships which convey mails between this country and the United States of America are under contract in respect of the outward services only. The voyages in the homeward direction are arranged at the discretion of the shipping companies in accordance with their own commercial requirements; and I am not in a position to vary those arrangements.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the majority of the passengers referred to leave at the first port they reach, and that as a result they go on to Paris and other Continental cities, causing a loss to this country—to restaurants and hotels and trade of this country—of something like £50,000,000 a year?
Coal Industry
Prices (Increase)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is taking any action with reference to the recent increase in coal prices; and whether the same has been occasioned by the operations of any ring?
At my invitation, representatives of the Coal Merchants' Federation met me this morning to discuss these matters. I shall continue to pursue my investigations, but it is too early at present to make any statement.
Will the hon. Gentleman make a statement to the House as soon as he possibly can?
I hope to make an announcement very shortly.
83 and 84.
asked the Secretary for Mines (1) what proportions of the present retail price of household coal are due to pithead price, cost of railway transit, and cost of distribution in London and in Glasgow;
(2) If he is aware that about 90 per cent. of the coal at the Midland collieries is sold by contract twice a year, the difference between the summer and winter prices being about 1s. per ton; that of the remaining 10 per cent. of free coal only a negligible quantity is household coal; that in spite of this there have been five increases in the retail price of household coal since last September; and what steps he is prepared to take to cope with profiteering in this trade?
As my hon. Friend is probably aware, this matter is engaging my attention.
Is the hon. Gentleman making any inquiry into the high price of coal to the consumer?
I have already said the matter is engaging my attention, and, as a matter of fact, I have this morning met representatives of the Merchants' Association, and discussed the matter very fully. I am not yet in a position to make any announcement.
Wages Dispute
asked the Secretary for Mines, in view of the fact that the agreement in the coal trade will terminate in a few weeks' time, and of the danger of allowing matters to drift before the Government takes definite action to bring the parties together before a strike is entered upon, what action the Government are taking towards a peaceful solution; and if he will take an early opportunity to report the progress of negotiations to the House so that public opinion may be exerted on the parties?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which the Prime Minister gave yesterday to the right hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. Baldwin). I may add that I have made arrangements to meet both the owners' and the miners' representatives on Thursday next.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the present position?
The present position is that I am to meet the Miners' Federa- tion representatives and the Mining Association representatives on Thursday.
Export Prices
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has any evidence that certain coal companies and certain coal exporting firms are controlled by the same personnel as directors who undertake these dual duties for the purpose of adjusting the selling prices of export coal to the detriment of the wage rates of the coal miners; and whether, in view of the fact that many miners in every British coalfield exporting coal are apprehensive that this practice obtains on a large scale, he will institute an inquiry into the matter forthwith?
No, Sir. I have no evidence on this subject. If the Miners' Federation have any such evidence I have no doubt that they may rely on the fullest co-operation of the Mining Association in exposing such practices.
Is it not a matter which should be reckoned in arriving at the bi-monthly ascertainment?
I do not think it is a question which arises in that way. It is purely a question of the relations between the exporter and the colliery owner, and as to this I have not sufficient evidence.
Russia
Imports and Exports
asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the total export and import trade, respectively, between this country and Russia during the year 1923, and January and February of this year; and whether he has any figures showing the amount of Russian trade with other countries and the British Empire during the same period?
The answer involves a tabular statement, which, with the permission of the House, I will have circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The declared values of the import and export trade of the United Kingdom with Russia during the year 1923 were as follows:
£ Imports consigned from Russia 9,308,232 Exports of United Kingdom produce and manufactures consigned to Russia 2,493,205 Re-exports of foreign and colonial merchandise, consigned to Russia 1,990,178
Corresponding particulars for January and February, 1924, are not available.
The following statement, extracted from "Russian Information and Review" (the official organ of the Russian Trade Delegation), shows the value—on the basis of pre-War (1913) prices—of imports into and exports from Russia during the year ended September, 1923, distinguishing the principal countries from which goods were imported and to which goods were directly exported.
Countries. Imports. Exports. Thousand Gold Roubles. Thousand Gold Roubles. Germany 60,967 42,631 United Kingdom 37,130 28,918 Latvia 7,246 18,983 Esthonia 4,946 8,486 Holland 2,369 7,148 Turkey 757 5,169 Finland 5,693 5,127 Italy 743 3,362 Poland 8,967 3,135 Gibralter (a) 1,815 Denmark 28 1,794 Belgium 773 1,694 Sweden 7,294 799 Norway 3,298 703 Persia 2,311 452 United States 4,426 3,020 France 164 Other Countries 780 Total 147,892 133,239 ( a ) Not separately shown.) Not separately shown.
British Subjects (Compensation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the number of British repatriates from Russia who have registered claims with his Department in respect of imprisonment, or lose of property or health, which they have suffered as the result of action by the Soviet Government; and what steps he has taken to secure recognition of these claims?
Claims on account of death, personal injury, or imprisonment in Russia have been registered in the Russian Claims Department of the Board of Trade in respect of 249 persons. It is not possible to ascertain without a great deal of labour how many of the property claims registered are made by persons formerly resident in Russia. As regards the concluding portion of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 3rd March, and to that given to the hon. Member for Salford North on the 20th February.
Siberian Bank
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the exact amount paid by His Majesty's Government for shares in the Siberian Bank in Russia; and whether this holding is now in the hands of the Treasury itself?
I would refer the hon. Member to the 3rd Report of the Public Accounts Committee for 1921 (Appendix 11, page 436). The question is very fully gone into there. The securities are held by trustees for the Treasury in London.
Questions
Enemy Action Claims
asked the President of the Board of Trade what it is proposed to do with regard to the many perfectly genuine claims for compensation for loss caused by enemy action from claimants who, through being at sea and other causes beyond their control, did not present their claims within the specified period; whether he is aware that many of these men and women are in distress; and whether some payment can be made to them on compassionate grounds until such time as reparations are collected from the German Government?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the Government's attitude towards the Report of the Royal Commis- sion on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action; and whether he can state the intentions of the Government with regard to the belated claims which are not dealt with in this Report?
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the recently issued Final Report of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action still leaves a very large number of torpedoed seamen whose claims are classed as belated in doubt as to what their position is; and will he take steps to have it made known to such claimants whether their claims have been rejected or accepted or are still under consideration?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is his intention to adopt the Report of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action, particularly with regard to the belated claims of ex-seamen and their dependants, or whether, in view of the fact that many of these men were prevented through no fault of their own, such as being out of the country for a considerable period of time, from putting their claims before the Royal Commission, he will consider the question of giving these men some monetary grant, to which undoubtedly they have a strong moral claim, either from the fund in question or from some other source?
The answer is a long one, but in view of the interest taken in the matter, it may be the general desire that I should read it. The Government have adopted the Report of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action, and the sum of £5,000,000 already voted is now being paid to claimants in accordance with the recommendations of the Commission Careful consideration has been given to the question of belated claims, and it must be remembered that very many of the claimants have already received some compensation from other sources such as the War Risks Compensation Scheme.
Notices of the latest date for submitting claims to the Royal Commission were published on several occasions, and as is explained in the Report, the necessity for making claims was particularly made known to seamen. The Government have, however, decided in all the circumstances to ask Parliament to authorise payment to an amount not exceeding £300,000 for the purpose of distributing a solatium to claimants who will not receive any payment under the recommendations of the Royal Commission on account of the lateness of the date on which their claims were submitted. I should add that no funds beyond those already referred to can be provided, and that, in order to keep within the amont of £300,000, the maximum payment to each claimant will have to be restricted to a small sum. With a view to facilitating the distribution, it will be necessary to exclude any claim which has not been lodged with the Reparation Claims Department of the Board of Trade by the 1st June. It will not be possible to consider any claim which is lodged after that date. Notification will be given to claimants of the manner in which their claim will be dealt with.
What steps is the right hon. Gentleman going to take to make it known to these people that they have until the 1st June to put in these further claims?
It will not be necessary to renew the latest claims which are already in. I am sorry to say that I cannot imagine what steps we can take to make the matter known to other people who are not even included among the claimants, beyond the wide advertisement that will be given to this through the Press.
What proportion of their total claims will the claimants get who receive something out of the £300,000, as compared with the proportion paid under the First and Second Reports of the Commission, to those who were awarded compensation by the Commission?
I appreciate the compliment of the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that I could reply to that straight away, but I may say that no total of the amounts claimed in the belated claims has, I believe, been made, therefore I do not think it possible to arrive at any percentage.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is impossible to say what sums the Govern- ment should give for the belated claims if he is unable to say what these belated claims come to?
I can only say that the calculations have been made in the best possible manner on the lines of what has been given in the case of claims of a similar character which were not belated.
Are the belated claims, which are to be paid out of the £300,000, to be confined to claims for personal injuries and loss suffered, or will the payments be extended to all claims so far as the money is available?
I am afraid that I must have notice of that question.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the hardship which will be inflicted on large numbers of fishermen by the payment of only a percentage of claims for damage done by enemy action as recommended by the Royal Commission, he can see his way to giving a further grant to them so that their long overdue claims may be met in full?
No, Sir. I am not prepared to depart from the scale recommended by the Royal Commission, under which compensation is paid in full up to £250.
Petrol Measuring Pumps
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is prepared to introduce legislation to deal with the testing and stamping of petrol measuring pumps, so that such pumps may be subject to all the provisions of the Weights and Measures Acts?
I am considering the introduction of legislation for the testing and stamping of petrol measuring pumps and other measuring instruments. If it is non-contentious, I hope it may be passed during this Session.
Government Departments
Enemy Debts Clearing House
asked the President of the Board of Trade the total numbers of the staff of the Clearing Office for Enemy Debts, Cornwall House, Stamford Street, S.E., on 1st March, 1924, on 1st March, 1923, and on 1st March, 1922; and whether he can see his way further to reduce the staff, in view of the fact that the cost of the Clearing Office for Enemy Debts falls upon the private claimants and not upon the State?
The answer is rather long, and, perhaps, the hon. and gallant Member will not object to my having it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The staff employed by the Clearing Office (Enemy Debts), including the Departments for the Administration of Austrian, Bulgarian and Hungarian property and the accredited representatives of those Departments in Berlin, Vienna and Budapest, which reached its highest figure of 1,375 in June, 1921, numbered:
On 1st March, 1922 … … 1,309 On 1st March, 1923 … … 1,000 On 1st March, 1924 … … 835
War Office
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of employés in the London area to whom advances of wages ranging from 3s. to 1s. 6d. have just been granted; what the aggregate of such advances will amount to per week; and whether it is intended to grant advances to War Office employés in the provinces?
In reply to the first two parts of the question, the present number of War Department employés concerned is approximately 7,900, involving a weekly cost of about £850. As regards the third part, the particular advances recently granted in London were based upon the special features attaching to the case of establishments in that area.
Questions
United Dairies Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any steps are being taken to give effect to the recommendations of the Linlithgow Report with regard to the publication of the costs and profits of the United Dairies Company?
Legislation would be necessary to give effect to the recommendation to which the hon. Member refers, which did not relate to the United Dairies Company only. The matter is still under consideration, but I cannot say anything at present as to the possibilities of legislation this Session.
Safeguarding of Industries Act
Pottery Trade (Foreign Competition)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that serious unemployment is being created in the pottery trade (china) by the value of imported German and Czechoslovakian ware being at prices below the British cost of production; and whether, if request is made to him by the industry, he will appoint an independent committee to report on the position?
I am aware of the general position in the pottery trade, but as at present advised I fear there would be no advantage in appointing the committee suggested.
Glass and Hollow-Ware
14 and 15.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received from members of the glassware trade application for the Depreciated Currency Order of October, 1922, issued under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, to be reconsidered by a committee set up by the Board of Trade in accordance with Section 9 of the Act, on the ground that German exports to this country are no longer assisted by a depreciated currency; and whether he proposes to set up a committee forthwith;
(2) whether he has received from members of the hollow-ware trade applications for the Depreciated Currency Order of October, 1922, issued under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, to be reconsidered by a committee set up by the Board of Trade in accordance with Section 9 of the Act, on the ground that German exports to this country are no longer assisted by a depreciated currency; and whether he proposes to set up a committee forthwith?
I have received applications of the nature indicated by the hon. and gallant Member, and have invited the applicants to furnish certain information. So soon as that information is received the applications will be carefully considered.
Do the Government intend to extend this Act?
I am afraid that that does not arise out of the question on the paper.
Thermos Flasks
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a thermos flask imported by post is not considered by the customs officials as liable for duty under the Safeguarding of Industries Act as blown glass ware or as a scientific instrument, but that the aluminium cup is dutiable to the amount of 1d. as domestic aluminium hollow ware, and that the post office imposes a charge of 6d. for the collection of the 1d. duty; and whether he will consider the advisability of issuing an order to exempt such articles from duty?
By an Order made under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, thermos flasks fitted with aluminium cups are liable to duty as aluminium hollow ware at the rate of 33⅓ per cent. ad valorem in respect of the value of the cup, if manufactured in Germany. The fact that in the extreme case of a single flask imported by parcel post the duty may be as little as 1d. cannot be regarded as a sufficient reason for a general exemption in respect of all flasks.
Is it a fact that it costs my right hon. Friend 6d. to collect 1d.?
I believe the Post Office make some such charge as that, but the hon. Member is well aware that sometimes it is necessary, for the safeguarding of a principle, to collect a duty which costs more than the actual revenue obtained.
In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend wants a surplus, why cannot he arrange with the Postmaster-General to get rid of that five-pence?
Questions
Liquor Teaffic (United States)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the continued shipments of liquor to the United States from this country, and with a view to suppressing this traffic, he will initiate legislation to prohibit the insurance of these shipments?
:I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the Bodmin Division of Cornwall on the 12th March.
asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to ask the House to ratify the Liquor Treaty with the United States?
If the Treaty meets with the approval of Parliament, the King will be advised to ratify it so soon as the approval of all the Dominion Parliaments shall have been signified. Of these, only the approval of Canada and the Irish Free State are still outstanding.
Does that mean that the Treaty will require legislation?
No, Sir.
Will an opportunity be given to the House of debating it?
That question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
British Army
Canned Meat Contracts
asked the Secretary of State for War what price per tender unit was quoted by the South American firm to which a contract for the supply of canned meats was recently awarded by the War Office?
I regret that I cannot depart from the established practice of regarding information as to tender prices as strictly confidential.
In contracts of this kind will the right hon. Gentleman see that His Majesty's Dominions and Dependencies get a preference over foreign countries?
That question has been repeatedly answered. A reasonable preference is already given.
Compensation Claim (W. Baggs)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. W. Baggs, of 4, Dipley Green, near Winchfield, Hampshire, while on War Office work, suffered a fractured skull through an accident on the 14th June, 1922, and that he was paid compensation at 35s. per week until last July, when the compensation was reduced to 16s. 6d.; whether he is aware that his medical attendant has certified him as permanently incapacitated for work and that Mr. Baggs has nine children all under 14 years; and whether he will inquire into this case?
This case is already being inquired into as the result of further information recently received, and I will inform the Noble Lord of the result.
Does the right hon. Gentleman expect this man to bring up nine children on 16s. a week?
Woolwich and Sandhurst (Cadets' Fees)
asked the Secretary of State for War what fees, if any, are charged for cadets at Woolwich and Sandhurst?
The normal fee is £200 a year, but reduced fees are charged, under conditions, for the sons of officers and soldiers. The hon. and gallant Member will find full information on page 51 of the recently issued Estimates.
Is it the policy of the right hon. Gentleman to abolish these fees altogether?
No; I cannot say that. The whole question has been under discussion. It has been stated that the normal fee is £200 a year. That is the highest fee charged. These are very much smaller fees.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to encourage the right type of boy, whatever the financial position of his parents may be?
I think that that question was anticipated in a statement made to this House.
Palestine (Cavalry Regiment)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to keep the cavalry regiment that has been sent from India permanently in Palestine; where are they stationed and whether in tents or huts; and whether it is proposed to build barrack accommodation for them?
I am not in a position to say whether this regiment will be permanently required in Palestine. The troops will be stationed in existing huts at Surafend, and it is not proposed at present to build barracks for them.
Munition Factories
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will take steps to arrange for the transformation of factories and plant in the charge of his Department to the purposes of commerce and industry in the same way as has been done at Messrs. Krupp at Essen, Ruhr?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which the Prime Minister gave to the hon. Member for Batley and Morley on the 14th instant
Scotland
Church of Scotland (High Commissioner)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that an annual payment of £2,000 from the public funds is made to the High Commissioner for his services in opening the general assembly of the Church of Scotland; and if, in view of the necessity for retrenchment, he will take steps to have this payment stopped?
In reply to the first part of the question, a grant of £2,000 is made annually to the Lord High Commissioner as a contribution towards ex- penses incurred by him in the discharge of his duties in connection with the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. I understand that the grant is no more than sufficient to meet the expenses involved. I cannot see my way to recommend that the payment should be stopped.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it adds to the dignity of this office that the Lord High Commissioner should be compelled to be the channel through which a large sum of money is spent on wasteful objects, including the supply of free drink to the young clergymen of the Church of Scotland?
Arising out of the original answer, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Scottish Law Officers have looked into the appointment of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. James Brown), and the remuneration he is receiving, in relation to his tenure of his seat in this House?
What is wrong with a gentleman having a drink?
Schools (Size of Classes)
asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of classes under 20, between 20 and 30, between 30 and 40, between 40 and 50, between 50 and 60, and over 60 pupils on the roll in infant, junior, and senior divisions, separately; for advanced divisions or intermediate departments; and for post-intermediate departments in Scottish schools?
I cannot give the figures for which my hon. Friend asks without calling for a very elaborate return from the managers of all Scottish schools.
May I ask why this figure cannot be obtained? It has been obtained in the rather larger country of England and was found necessary there for educational purposes. The question has been on the Paper for three months.
The hon. Member must not argue the question.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that the Minister of Education has given instructions in England that no class in England must have more than 60 pupils; and, if so what action he proposes to take with a view to having no school class in Scotland with more than 60 pupils?
I am aware that the Board of Education have issued a Circular intimating that they will expect local education authorities to give immedate consideration to such arrangements as are necessary to secure a reducton in the size of classes. In Scotland the number of education areas in which congestion occurs is relatively so small that nothing in the nature of a general instruction is called for. I propose to go into the matter with the individual education authorities concerned.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an instruction of that kind, in those localities were such an instruction is called for?
That is exactly what I have stated in my reply. I propose to go into the matter to the individual education authorities concerned.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the new code issued only last year there is no need for any inquiries, and that a definite instruction can be given that there must be not more than 60 pupils in each class.
Before answering that question will the right hon. Gentleman state if there is not better education in Scotland than in England; and is that not the reason why Scotsmen have all the best jobs in this country?
Fishery Cruiser "Minna."
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can say what is the average speed of the fishery cruiser "Minna," the average speed of the trawlers it is her duty to watch, the approximate number of miles of coast line it is her duty to' patrol, and the number of days she was at sea last year?
The speed of the "Minna" under full steam is 12 knots, and the speed of trawlers when under full steam and not engaged in brawling is on the average about 10½ knots although a few of the larger vessels can attain 11½ knots. The coast line within the patrol of the "Minna" extends approximately to 800 miles and the cruiser was at sea on 235 days in 1923.
Is it not a fact that trawlers outstrip the "Minna" every day and that the average speed of a trawler is about 12 knots while the "Minna" at full steam cannot go beyond 10?
Is it also a fact that foreign trawlers are faster than British trawlers?
How many knots do you go?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) will notice that in my reply I state that the speed of the "Minna" under full steam is 12 knots.
Agricultural Rating
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, seeing that under the provisions of the Agricultural Rates Act, 1923, which applies to England and Wales, owners of poultry runs and hen farms have the advantage of agricultural rating, he will consider the necessity for the introduction of legislation conferring similar rights upon owners of poultry farms and hen runs in Scotland, where rating is imposed on the domestic rate basis?
As pointed out in the correspondence which my Department has recently had with my hon. Friend, the question whether a poultry run or hen farm in Scotland is entitled to the rating benefits of the Agricultural Rates Act, 1923, depends upon whether it falls within the expression agricultural lands and heritages as defined for the purposes of that Act. The question is primarily one for the local rating authorities, to whom persons owning or occupying poultry farms should address any inquiry on the subject. On my present information, I am not aware that the circumstances make it necessary to consider the promotion of amending legislation for Scotland.
Is there any difference between the method of rating in Scotland and the method followed under the English Act?
I am not aware of the general conditions in England, and I should advise my hon. Friend to put his question to the Minister of Health.
asked the Secretary for Scotland when the additional annual grant under Section 9 of the Agricultural Bates Act, 1923, is to be paid?
The grant was issued to rating authorities on the 12th instant.
Evictions
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that Mrs. Jeanie Black, 79, Richard Street, Glasgow, has had an eviction order granted against her for non-payment of rent, notwithstanding that on 17th January, 1924, the sanitary authority of Glasgow certified that the dwelling-house was not reasonably fit for human habitation; that it was situated in an unhealthy area and was included in the Glasgow (Cowcadden, etc.) Improvement Scheme, 1923, Confirmation Order, 1923, made by the Scottish Board of Health under the Housing (Scotland) Acts, 1890 to 1923; and whether he will take steps to protect this woman and other tenants in similar houses' from eviction?
I am advised that the position is substantially as stated in the question. I understand, however, that defects in the house have been remedied by the landlord so that the tenant no longer has this as a reason for withholding rent, which I am informed is six months in arrears. I have no power in such cases to interfere with the decision of the Courts which doubtless have all the facts of the cases before them.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is yet in the position to make any statement with regard to the eviction of poor people from their homes in Scotland?
I am endeavouring by administrative arrangements to bring about a reduction in the number of cases in which eviction orders are sought and granted. I propose to introduce immediately a Bill to amend the Small Debt (Scotland) Acts, which, if passed into law, will, I believe, also tend to relieve the situation.
Education Fund
asked the Secretary for Scotland the nett amount of money paid into the Scottish Education Fund for the years 1921–22, 1922–23, and 1923–24; what, if any, will be the reduction for 1924–25 because of the reduction in English Education Estimates; what will be the nett reduction because of savings in English educational expenditure during 1923–24; and what will be the average increase of rates, all other services and valuation remaining equal, with the same method of distribution of the fund at for the year 1923–24?
The net income of the Education (Scotland) Fund from all sources was £7,384,791 in 1921–22, £7,014,710 in 1922–23, and is estimated at £6,604,235 for 1923–24. There will be no reduction in 1924–25 in those parts of the English Education Estimates which are taken into account in calculating the Scottish equivalent grant. The amount, if any, of the savings in English educational expenditure in 1923–24 will not be known until after the close of the financial year. With regard to the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to a question by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) on the 11th instant.
Small Occupying Owners (Relief Scheme)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, having regard to the fact that many smallholders in Orkney and Shetland have recently, owing to the sale of estates, become occupying-owners at high prices, and that small occupying-owners have suffered equally with other smallholders from the failure of the harvest, it will be possible to extend to small occupying-owners the benefits of the relief scheme for the supply of seed oats and potatoes at reduced prices?
I am prepared to allow these men who have recently become occupying-owners to be admitted to the scheme, provided that their holdings were within the limits of 50 acres or £50 annual value laid down by the Small Landholders Act, 1911, and that the necessity for assistance is clearly established in each instance.
Borstal Institutes (Building Trade Training)
asked the Secretary for Scotland what number of lads are being trained in the building trades at the Borstal Institutes at Sauchie, Edinburgh, and Polmont, Stirlingshire; and what attitude the Prison Commission takes as regards the after-care and prospects of such lads so trained?
I am informed that there are 72 inmates of the Borstal Institutes referred to in the question at present undergoing training in the building trades, namely, 17 bricklayers, 18 joiners, 21 plasterers, 3 slaters, 6 plumbers, and 7 painters. The Commissioners endeavour to find situations for the trainees according to their qualifications before liberating them under guardianship in accordance with Section 5 of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the building trade unions will accept these trainees?
Eddleston (Drainage)
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware that one of the medical officers of the Board submitted a report to the Board on 26th June, 1922, regarding questions of drainage at Eddleston and pollution of the Eddleston water, and made certain recommendations; if these recommendations were approved of by the Board of Health; if so, have they all been carried out; and, if not, why not?
The recommendations of the medical officer of the Scottish Board of Health regarding the drainage at Eddleston and the pollution of Eddleston water, to which my hon. Friend refers, were approved by the Board and duly communicated to the local authority. I understand that the local authority have decided to call upon the proprietors to carry out the drainage recommendations, and an officer of the Board has been instructed to visit Eddleston and advise on the difficulty that has arisen in making suitable arrangements for the disposal of household refuse.
Questions
Oil-Bearing Shale, Somerset
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the attention of the Government has been drawn to the discovery of large areas of oil-bearing shale in Somerset; whether he has information indicating that that discovery is of commercial importance; and whether, in view of the importance of securing a supply of home-produced oil for national services, the Government will take early steps to secure that the shalefield shall be worked in the interest of the nation rather than for the benefit of financial speculators?
Yes, Sir, I am aware of this discovery. The investigations appear to be still in the preliminary stages, and it would be premature to pronounce any opinion as to the importance of the deposits.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question?
It is too early to announce an opinion; we had better have the preliminary investigation completed.
If the preliminary investigation shows that this is a commercial proposition, will the Government take steps to see that all the profit is not taken by a financial speculator?
Industrial Insurance Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed to introduce the promised amending Bill to the Industrial Assurance Act, 1923; and if he is aware of the disabilities under which the friendly societies are at present conducting their business in competition with the limited liability companies?
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill to amend the Friendly Societies Act, so as to bring it in conformity with Section 4 of the Industrial Assurance Act, 1923, will be introduced; and whether he is aware that the continued delay in introducing the Measure is causing injustice and inconvenience to the societies?
I have been asked to reply to these questions. It is hoped to introduce the Bill in another place in the course of the next few days.
Is my hon. Friend aware of the grave inconvenience that is being caused to societies by the delay of the Government in this matter, and as the Measure is quite non-controversial, cannot he introduce it at once?
I entirely agree with the opinion. There was a small difficulty with regard to one point. The Bill will be introduced in the course of a few days.
Necessitous Areas
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the Government's rejection of the formula submitted by necessitous local authorities for giving them financial assistance from the Treasury, he will specify in what way the Government propose to give special relief to those districts whose rates, on account of abnormal unemployment, are much above the average for the rest of the country?
The Amendment of the Unemployment Insurance Acts scheme proposed by the Government will, it is hoped, appreciably reduce the burden of the necessitous local authorities. Meanwhile, the Government propose to continue the present system of assisting those authorities by authorising, and if necessary advancing, loans to enable them to meet their current expenditure.
Will the hon. Gentleman make representations to the Minister, and ask if something cannot be done to lighten the heavy load of debt which has accumulated in those areas with regard to past payments?
Will the Minister of Health take into consideration a proposal to allow first year loans, under the existing circumstances, to be free of interest?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in these districts many men have not worked for three years and many are only getting one week's work in nine months; and what is the Government policy with regard to finding work for the unemployed?
What have the other people been doing?
Irish Free State (Financial Relations)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if a statement of accounts as between the British Treasury and the Irish Free State to the end of the present financial year will be laid before Parliament, showing in detail the payments made and due during the present financial year on either side, and the amounts outstanding, so far as can be ascertained, to the 31st March of this year?
I beg to refer to the Statement of Financial Position between the British Government and the Government of the Irish Free State in 1923–24 (Command Paper 1930). When figures are available, I will consider the question of giving payments made and amounts outstanding at the end of the year.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no intelligible statement has yet been published showing the financial position as between the British Treasury and the Irish Free State?
The question of whether the statement is intelligible or not depends on the intelligence of the person who reads it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only I myself but many persons of intelligence have looked at it and have not> found it intelligible?
That only shows there are others besides the hon. and gallant Gentleman who are not able to bring their intelligence to bear on this question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a financial statement or arrangement has been arrived at between the Treasury and the Irish Free State, as provided for in the Treaty?
That is not relevant to the question on the paper, which simply deals with a return, and I have promised the return should be brought up to date as soon as possible.
Old Age and Blind Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the apparent lack of co-ordination and cooperation in the work of pensions officers, the Department, and the local pensions sub-committees, he will take such steps as may be necessary to ensure that all matters relating to the welfare-of old age pensioners should be under the control of the local committee and that the pensions officer should actively co-operate with the local pensions sub-committee?
The procedure followed in connection with claims for old age pensions is that prescribed by Statute. Pension officers, who are under the control of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, ascertain the relevant facts and report them for the consideration of the local old age pension committee, together with their opinion as to whether the claimant is entitled to an old age pension under the law and, if so, at what rate and from what date.
63 and 64.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether be can see his way to introduce legislation to abolish immediately the restriction on the earnings of blind persons in receipt of State pensions;
(2) whether he proposes to introduce legislation with a view to ensuring that any sum received by an old age pensioner in sickness benefit or superannuation allowance from a friendly society or any similar thrift institution shall not be calculated as income received by such person?
As I stated on the 27th February, on the discussion of the Resolution in the name of the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Hugh Edwards), the Government are considering the effect of the operation of the means limit imposed by the Old Age Pensions Acts. The limitations contained in these Acts apply, as the hon. Member will no, doubt be aware, to blind persons entitled; by Section 1 of the Blind Persons Act, 1920, to receive old age pensions on attaining the age of 50. I must ask the hon. Member to await the Government's proposals in the matter.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the fact that when an old-age pensioner becomes an inmate of a mental institution the pension is not paid to the institution, and at his death the whole cost of his maintenance there can be collected from his widow; and whether he can see his way to remove this hardship
Section 3 (1) ( c ) of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, provides that a person shall be disqualified for the receipt of an old-age pension while he is detained in any asylum within the meaning of the Lunacy Act, 1890, or while he is being maintained in any place as a pauper or criminal lunatic. I am making inquiries as to the latter part o£ the question, which concerns other Departments.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is prepared to introduce legislation to ensure that, when calculating the means of a claimant for an old-age pension, no account shall be taken of any compassionate pension that may be received by a claimant in respect of the loss of a son, or sons, in the great War?
I am not in a position to add anything to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor or the Exchequer, on the 27th February last, on the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. J. Edwards), and must ask the hon. Member to await the proposals of the Government.
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any directions have yet been issued under Section 46 of the Income Tax Act, 1918, regarding proof of residence abroad by owners of securities; whether he is aware that claims have been made by the Revenue authorities for payment of Income Tax by holders of such securities ordinarily resident abroad on the ground that proof of residence abroad cannot be made iii accordance with Section 46 so long as no directions have been issued by the Treasury; and when it is intended to take administrative action to grant the relief given by Section 46?
Forms of claim approved by the Treasury are regularly provided for applicants and, so far as my information goes, the exemption allowed by Section 46 of the Income Tax Act, 1918, has always been given where it has been shown that the owner of the securities is not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom. If, however, the hon. Member will send me particulars of any case he has in mind, I will gladly inquire into it and communicate with him further.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that many businesses incurred exceptionally heavy losses during the years 1920 and 1921, which losses have in many cases seriously depleted working capital and which have not been made good during the last two years, he will consider the equity of providing that, when a business has sustained losses during 1920 and 1921 in respect of which relief of Income Tax has not been wholly given under the three years' average, this period shall be extended to six years?
I cannot see my way to introduce a further relief provision in order to meet the exceptional case to which the hon. Member refers. I would point out that, apart from, the operations of the three years' average system, the law makes provision for relief to the trader who makes a loss in the year of assessment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the provision under Section 34 does not cover the point at issue?
I am quite well aware that there may be very rare cases where a very exceptional loss is not covered by that provision.
Motor Cars (Import Duties)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount received from import duties under the Finance Act, 1915, on motor cars, motor cycles, and parts and accessories for the nine months ended 31st December, 1923?
The net import duties collected under Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, in respect of motor cars, motor cycles, and parts and accessories thereof during the nine months ended 31st December, 1923, amounted to £1,055,504.
National Debt Inquiry (Committee)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to state the names of the members of the Committee he is appointing to inquire into the National Debt?
The Committee will be constituted as follows:—
France (Debt to Great Britain)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much the French Government owes to the British Government?
I would refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. E. Brown) on the 4th March.
Pre-War Pensioners
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to introduce legislation this Session with the object of increasing the pensions of pre-War pensioners?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister on the 10th March to the hon. Members for Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) and Epping (Sir L. Lyle).
Trade Facilities Act (Guarantees)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that all applicants for guarantees under the Trade Facilities Act have to appear in London with their witnesses to give evidence, he will say how many applicants for guarantees of £10,000 and under have appeared in London at their own expense to have their cases examined by the Advisory Committee and have had their applications rejected; how many of these were from London and how many from districts outside London; and whether, in view of the fact that an infinitesimal amount of the guarantees has been awarded to applicants for £10,000 and under, he will inquire whether some alteration can be made in the present system, so as to make it possible for applicants for guarantees of small amounts to receive their fair proportion of the amounts guaranteed under the Act?
This matter was fully dealt with by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the discussion of the hon. Member's Amendment to the Trade Facilities Bill on Wednesday last. I have nothing to add to the statement made by my hon. Friend on that occasion, and I see no useful purpose in putting the Advisory Committee to the trouble and expense of going through the whole of the numerous applications in order to obtain statistics whose value would be quite disproportionate to the labour involved.
Is there any justification for the implication that applicants for small amounts are not receiving their fair proportion?
No. So far as I am aware, there is no foundation for it at all.
Entertainments Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, because a drawing competition for children was included by the Whalley Agricultural Society in the horticultural section of one of its recent shows, the Customs and Excise authorities decided that such inclusion constituted a bar to exemption from the Entertainments Duty; and, in view of the fact that this drawing competition was of a purely educational character and in no way designed to benefit the society financially, whether he is prepared to remit the tax charges levied on that occasion?
I have made inquiry regarding this case, and am advised that there is no power in law to make the repayment sought.
Government Surplus War Stores
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the criticisms of one of His Majesty's judges upon the dilatory methods of the Department dealing with unsold war assets; and what is now being done to close up its depots, reduce staffs, and dissolve the Department?
The observations of Mr. Justice Sankey reported in the Press on 22nd February and subsequent days have been brought to my notice. I am satisfied that the Disposal and Liquidation Commission have attained a large measure of success in realising to the best advantage and as quickly as circumstances permitted the assets entrusted to them for disposal. As regards the second part of the question, I must ask the hon. Member to be good enough to await the issue of a White Paper, which I hope to lay upon the Table early next month dealing with the matters referred to by him.
67 and 68.
also asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will publish a list of depots under the Department controlling the disposal of unsold war stores and assets, and the estimated realisable value of the movable and immovable stores and assets with which each depot is concerned;
(2) how many depots there are under the Department controlling the disposal of unsold war stores and assets, and the estimated realisable value of such stores and assets?
I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of all depots and magazines at home controlled by the Disposal and Liquidation Commission which contain surplus stores. These uncleared depots and magazines represent approximately one half of one per cent. of the total of depots and magazines at home, which the Commission had to clear of surplus stores. I regret that, in view of the constant sale and delivery of stores, it is not feasible with the present depleted clerical staff of the Commission to undertake the preparation of a return of the estimated realisable value of the moveable and immoveable stores in each depot and magazine. However, as I advised the hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Brigadier-General Makins) on Thursday last, it is estimated that the total value of all surpluses remaining for sale by the Commission is approximately £8,000,000, whilst the total sales, including raw materials on trading account, to date amount to approximately £670,000,000.
Will the hon. Member include in the White Paper the information to which he referred a few moments ago?
I should like notice of that question. I think there are differences, but I will consider the point.
Following is the list referred to :
Southern Depots.
Banbury
Beachley
Belvedere
Chittening
Colnbrook
Coventry
Credenhill
Farlington
Hayes
Hereford
Long Parish
Mid Lavant
Park Royal
Portbury
Quedgeley
Shepherds Bush
Southampton
Swindon (two depots)
Wandsworth
Willesden
Wormwood Scrubs
West Drayton
Chattis Hill
Dudley
Ely
Lopcome Corner
North Weald Bassett
Northern Depots.
Aintree
Barnbow
Birtley
Blaydon
Bradley
Ellesmere Port
Gadbrook
Gainsborough
Georgetown
Hunslett
Lancaster
Langwith
Morecambe
Openshaw
Queensferry
Rainhill
Royds Green
St. Helens
Walton
W. Houghton
Barrow-in-Furness
Gretna
Ironhurst
Irvine
Pembrey
Magazines.
Ellesmere
Gloucester
Hardwick
Normanton Hill
Northolt
Pembrey
Ex-Service Men
Joint Substitution Board
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many ex-service temporary civil servants whose names have been submitted to the Joint Substitution Board have been placed in other Government employment during the past 12 months, and how many names there are at present on the list?
The number of ex-service temporary staff re-allocated to Government employment by the Joint Substitution Board in London and the South Eastern Area between 10th March, 1923, and 7th March, 1924, was 1,470. In addition, a large number of appointments were made in the provinces by Divisional Selection Committees of the Ministry of Labour. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to the reply given on the 13th March to the hon. and gallant Member for South Dorset (Major Yerburgh).
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the independent member recently appointed by the Joint Substitution Board as a result of the Southborough Committee's Report meets the official side before a full conference with the ex-service representatives, he will arrange that the ex-service representatives should, in a similar manner, have the opportunity of putting their case to the chairman in the absence of the official side or, alternatively, arrange that no meetings shall be held either informally or formally at which all the members of the Board and representatives of associations are not present, in order that the object of the Southborough Committee's recommendation may be achieved, namely, the addition of a member to the Board who, after hearing both sides, is able to form an independent opinion?
As the answer is a long one, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the statement is true that the independent Member does follow this practice?
I think the lengthy reply which I propose to circulate will show that my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension on that point.
Following is the answer:
I fear that the hon. Member has framed his question under a misapprehension. The Joint Substitution Board consists of a representative of the Treasury, a representative of the Ministry of Labour, and a member appointed from outside the Civil Service, as recommended in the Second Interim Report of the Southborough Committee. Its business is to co-ordinate and advise on the execution of the Government's policy of giving preference wherever possible to ex-service men in the matter of temporary employment in Government Departments. An arrangement was made in 1921 whereby the representatives of the Associations principally concerned, including associations of women temporarily employed, are given periodical opportunities of oral discussion with the Board of questions arising out of this policy, but these representatives are in no sense, and cannot be regarded as, members of the Board, which is a body responsible to Ministers.
I cannot therefore adopt the suggestion that members of ex-service men's or other associations should be required or allowed to be present at such meetings as the Board finds it necessary to hold for the conduct of the business entrusted to it, or given facilities for making representations to any one member of the Board in the absence of the others.
Civil Service
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that pre-War temporary civil servants who completed seven years' satisfactory service have been absorbed into the permanent establishment without examination; and why the Government is not prepared to extend the same procedure to ex-service men now temporarily employed who have completed satisfactorily a certain number of years' service?
The National Whitley Council agreed that quasi-permanent unestablished clerks engaged before the War on duties which were permanent, or subsequently determined to be permanent, should not come on to the establishment through the competitions limited to temporary clerks, but should be dealt with under the assimilation machinery laid down in paragraph 65 of the Interim Report of the Reorganisation Committee. This procedure was in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Civil. Service in 1914. Quite different considerations arise as regards the appointment of ex-service temporary clerks to available vacancies on the permanent establishment, and in this matter I must await the Report of the Southborough Committee.
Can my hon. Friend say why the Civil Service absorbed 40,000 pre- War temporary people without examination, and they cannot absorb the ex-service men on the same terms?
I should be delighted to discuss that with my hon. Friend, but there is no comparison between pre-War people and the ex-service men. In fact, in a sentence, many of the pre-War so-called temporary people were really permanent.
If my hon. Friend is prepared to discuss it with me at any moment, will he ask the Prime Minister to provide a day?
Will the hon. Gentleman promise to bring in those ex-service men who have proved themselves efficient before new-comers are considered?
Of course, everything is being done that is possible in that matter.
I will raise this on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Questions
Government Publications (Advertisements)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how much revenue is derived from permitting advertising on or in the various Government publications; what these publications are and what are the advertisements accepted in each case; and whether the funds thus obtainable are credited to the different Departments or not?
For the current financial year, it is estimated that the revenue from advertisements will amount to £122,000. Of this sum approximately £120,000 will be appropriated in aid of the Stationery Office Vote, and the remainder will be paid over to other Departments, such as the Ministries of Agriculture and Labour which issue special publications of their own. I will send the hon. Member a list of the publications, as it is too long to quote. The advertisements appearing are such as are in general acceptance in commerce; a glance through the London Telephone Directory will give a good idea of their character.
Is that revenue net, or less expenditure.
I should like notice of that.
Does the great bulk of the revenue come from the London Telephone Directory?
I cannot say the precise source, but the information could, of course, be quite easily got.
Transport
Tramcar Accident, Cobridge
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the serious tramcar smash at Granville Crossing, Co bridge, last Friday, he is taking measures direct, or through the local council, to compel the Shelton Steel and Iron Company to divert their traffic on to the railway loop line which runs under Waterloo Road a few feet from the place of the accident, and ensure safety to tramcar passengers?
I have ordered an inquiry to be held into the circumstances of this accident, and I propose, as soon as I have received a report of the inquiry, to consider what measures I can usefully take.
Railway Wagons, Hull
asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that serious hindrance and considerable loss is being caused to the timber trade in Hull owing to the shortage of railway wagons for the conveyance of timber from the port to inland customers; that the railway company have closed Drypool goods station owing to their inability to provide the necessary wagons, and that the closing of this despatching station causes great inconvenience; and whether he is prepared to require the railway company to provide a sufficient number of wagons and adequate facilities?
:I understand that there has recently been an exceptional demand for timber wagons at Hull, owing to the endeavours made by traders to overcome the arrears brought about by the recent labour troubles on the railways and at the docks. I am assured by the railway company that they are sparing no efforts to deal with the situation, and I am sending the hon. Member a detailed report, which I have received from the company on the subject.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this shortage of railway wagons is very little due to the railway and dock strikes? There was a shortage before those strikes took place.
If the hon. Member will read the statement I have promised to send him, and is not satisfied, he can put down another question.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great dissatisfaction throughout the whole East Riding of Yorkshire on this question, and cannot his Department exert some pressure on the railway companies to relieve the matter?
London Traffic
asked the Minister of Transport whether, with a view to the relief of unemployment and traffic congestion in London, he will consider the construction of a subway for traffic under Piccadilly from some point in the forecourt of Devonshire House to the Green Park, and the construction of a road to join the Mall, and the construction of another subway for traffic proceeding north and south under Hyde Park Corner, to come up inside Hyde Park; and whether the possibility of the relief of traffic congestion by the construction of overhead or underground crossings at congested points is being considered in all its aspects with a view to its effect upon unemployment, etc.?
Suggestions of the nature of those contained in the noble Lord's question could appropriately be examined by the body which it is proposed to set up under the London Traffic Bill. In the meantime careful consideration is given by my Department to any proposal put forward by highway authorities for the relief of traffic congestion.
Are we to understand from the answer of the hon. Gentleman that this proposal will be brought before the Committee which he proposes to set up?
Has not the hon. Gentleman some executive powers in regard to these matters?
Has not the Department of the hon. Gentleman already studied the many subways which exist to-day in many of the capitals of Europe, and in the United States, and what is the need for waiting for a Bill?
When will this Bill be introduced?
Shortly.
Bridgwater-Watchet Railway
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to an offer made by the Great Western Railway Company to undertake jointly with the Government the construction of a limited number of new railways and so assist the alleviation of unemployment and the development of agricultural districts; and, if so, whether the present Government are prepared to afford the necessary financial assistance to enable the construction of the suggested railway from Bridgwater to Watchet to be undertaken?
I am aware of the proposals referred to, but I am not in a position to undertake to contribute to the cost of the extension or improvement of the Great Western Railway. The hon. Member is, no doubt, aware that statutory powers would have to be obtained before the particular proposal to which he refers could be carried out.
Trailer Trucks
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the danger involved by the imperfect control of trailer trucks attached to motor lorries, he will take steps strictly to limit the number of trucks a lorry may draw, particularly in crowded thoroughfares?
Under the existing law a heavy motor car can only draw one trailer, and its maximum legal speed with a trailer is only five miles per hour. I do not consider any further restrictions necessary.
Rural Roads (Maintenance)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received from various rural district councils resolutions asking for a fixed percentage contribution from the Road Fund toward the expenditure by rural district councils in the maintenance of roads for which they are responsible; and whether he will make proposals to Parliament to give effect to this suggestion?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on 6th March to the hon. Member for the Devizes Division (Mr. MacFadyen), of which I am sending him a copy.
Questions
Post Office
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General when it is proposed to provide a telephone service for Speen, Buckinghamshire; whether it is proposed to insist upon the original conditions of guarantee; whether he is aware that the amount required for guarantee could be arranged for providing that the number of guarantors could be extended beyond the number fixed (five); whether it is the practice to insist upon guarantees in all rural areas; why in this particular instance was it insisted upon; and whether he is aware that Speen is five miles from the nearest doctor or fire-brigade station?
It is the general practice to require a guarantee for a public telephone call office if the estimated receipts are insufficient to meet the cost of the service, and a guarantee to make good the difference between the sum of £26 10s. and the annual receipts is accordingly necessary for a call office at Speen. It is customary, as a matter of practical convenience, to restrict to five the number of signatories to a guarantee deed, but it is open to the signatories, who are jointly and severally liable to the Post Office for any deficiency, to share their liability with others by private arrangement. If there is genuine difficulty I am prepared to consider as signatories to the deed, more than five guarantors.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the guarantee is so much higher than the fees charged for a private telephone?
Will the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General popularise the use of telephones in rural areas?
Yes; I think it is correct to say that the Post Office has made the attempt to extend this service, so far as possible, in the rural areas.
Will inquiry be made as to whether the sum now paid as a guarantee can be reduced?
Fair Wages Clause
asked the Postmaster-General if he will cause inquiries to be made into the personnel, conditions, and wages of the workpeople employed by the Western Electric Company in their new subsidiary works at New Southgate in relation to the Fair Wage Clause operating with all Government contracts?
I will have inquiry made as requested, and communicate the result to the hon. Member in due course.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether this Western Electric Company is an American company, and one of the four to whom the Post Office has given a contract for the installation of the automatic telephone in London?
No, I cannot. I will inquire into it.
Will the Postmaster-General make careful inquiries as a result of the supplementary question put by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge)?
Yes, Sir.
Will the light hon. Gentleman take note of the objection made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh? Will he see, as suggested, that contracts are not to be given to the United States of America?
Yes, Sir.
Questions
Rent Restrictions Bill
( by Private Notice )asked the Lord Privy Seal if he is aware that the absence of a formally promulgated Government policy is having a disastrous effect on the progress of the Rent Restrictions Bill; and whether the Government is prepared to define their policy by putting Amendments to the Bill on the Paper?
I have no information to prove that any disastrous effect such as the hon. Gentleman mentions has resulted, or is due to the recent statement. As my right hon. Friend said in reply to a deputation, the Government are generally in favour of the Bill, and are prepared to assist it in Committee with legal advice and by putting Amendments on the Paper, if it appears desirable.
Are we to take it from that reply that the presence of the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Health in the Committee denotes Government agreement with the details of the Bill as at present unamended?
A general support has been given by the Government to the Bill.
Inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman has intimated to-day that legislation is going to be brought in in relation to Scotland in cases of eviction, are we to understand that the Government propose to bring in similar legislation in regard to this country?
That does not arise out of this question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is deliberate obstruction—
We cannot here discuss the proceedings in Committee.
You watch to-morrow, Sir, what will go on upstairs
Wait and see!
We know what will go on.
Are the Government prepared to bring in a short one-clause Bill providing for alternative accommodation as the necessary prelude to eviction orders, having regard to the hundreds of people who are being rendered homeless in every area in the country.
That question cannot be answered without notice. It must be put on the Paper.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that the present Bill involves a great many issues, and is likely to take a long time before it reaches this House from Committee, and in these circumstances will the Government introduce legislation which will deal with the urgent question?
That is a question that should be put on the Paper.
May we take it definitely from the previous replies of the right hon. Gentleman that every clause of this Bill to which a Government Amendment is not put down receives the full approval of the Government?
That conclusion should not be drawn.
Is it a fact that the Government has not yet a thought-out policy in regard to rent restrictions at all?
In view of the reply that has just been given by the Lord Privy Seal, will he state whether the Attorney-General and the Minister of Health have been withdrawn from the Committee?
Business of the House
May I ask the Lord Privy Seal what business it is proposed to take to-night, in addition to his statement of yesterday?
In my statement on business yesterday I intimated that to-day it was intended to ask the House to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule, and not only to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, but to obtain the necessary Navy Votes in Committee. I understand, however, through the usual channels, that there is a general desire in all sections of the House for further time to be given for the important discussion which we anticipate on the Navy Estimates. Therefore we propose, after moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, not to seek from the Committee a decision on Vote A, but accordingly, to adjourn at about eleven o'clock. Under this arrangement we shall continue progress on the Navy Estimates on Thursday, after disposing of the Air Estimates, in regard to which I understand there is no general desire for an extended Debate.
It is not quite clear from the statement of the Lord Privy Seal as to what it is pro- posed to do after we have disposed of the Navy Estimates to-night at 11, and after we have got Mr. Speaker out of the Chair. Is it proposed to take any Report stages of Estimates, and if so which?
No.
Nothing else?
No.
Is it the intention to take the West India Telephone Money Resolution to-night?
No.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Business of Supply be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Prince of Wales
I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is within the province of the House of Commons to represent to the Sovereign its great concern at the repeated risks run by the Heir to the Throne?
For myself, I think my reply must be that I have no tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me. For the rest, it is with the responsible Advisers of the Crown.
Notices of Motion
Taxation of Motor Cars
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the question of the incidence of taxation on motor cars, and to move a Resolution.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury, on behalf of Lieut.-Colonel Pownall. ]
Fair Wages Clause
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the Fair Wages Clause, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Dunnico. ]
Incidence of Indirect Taxation
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the incidence of indirect taxation, and to move a Resolution.—[ Captain Wedgwood Benn. ]
Bankruptcy Bill,
"to amend the Law relating to Bankruptcy," presented by Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 76.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. RENDALL reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Representation of the People Act (1918) Amendment Bill): Mr. Amery; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Leslie Scott.
Standing Committee B
Mr. RENDALL further reported from the Committee: That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee B: Sir Vansittart Bowater and Lord Huntingfield.
Mr. RENDALL further reported from the Committee: That they Had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: Sir Henry Buckingham; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Erskine.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Supply
Navy Estimates, 1924–25
Order for Committee read.
I beg to move, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
The House has had placed before it the Naval Estimates for 1924–25, and they have also had the memorandum issued by the First Lord of the Admiralty of what is practically a synopsis of the larger body of the Estimates. The Estimates consist of the expenditure to which the nation is already committed by contractual or quasi-contractual obligations. The fresh commitments amount to less than 10 per cent. of the whole. There is a reduction of £2,200,000 in the Vote as compared with the Estimates of last year. The proposed expenditure of £55,800,000 represents approximately £34,000,000 in pre-War figures. For a parallel we must go back to the year 1903–4, before the naval race began. This is an earnest of the desire of the Government to observe the Washington Agreement and to do all that is possible to reduce armaments.
Personnel
Dealing with Vote A, the Estimates now before the House provide for a maximum of 100,500 officers, men and boys, and that is an increase of 1,000 over the maximum Vote A for 1923–24, which was then 99,500, and 2,000 over the minimum to which we expect to reduce during 1923–24, namely 98,500. The position is that for manning the two battleships and other ships already building and due for completion in 1925–26 and 1926–27 an addition of 3,200 men would normally be required. This does not relate to our construction at all, but to that handed on to us by our predecessors. In the ordinary course, the process of entering the ratings required for those crews would have been spread over the whole period of the building of the ships. For reasons of economy it has been left until the latest possible moment compatible with having crews available when the ships are ready. Not only so, but instead of entering the full number of 3,200, we had decided to recruit only 1,400, and to obtain the remaining 1,800 by pruning them from the complements of other ships. This is a process which can only be carried out to a certain point because battleship's complement consists of men belonging to about 48 trades, and it is impossible to get all these in their proper proportions by pruning. We are really doing the utmost that is possible in this direction. The effect of dropping these 1,400 new entrants would be either that there would not be crews ready for the ships when the ships are ready for sea—a result that would reflect very seriously on the common sense of those responsible—or that this number will have to be entered in a hurry at the beginning of next year. The latter alternative would be expensive and unsatisfactory, as it would mean lowering the standard of recruiting in order to get the number quickly, overcrowding the training establishments, and improvising accommodation and instructional staff. What it really comes to is that we shall have a larger number of boys under training in 1924–25 than were provided for in the Estimates of 1923–24.
Construction (Progress)
I now turn to the progress that has been made in the two first-class battleships, the "Nelson" and "Rodney," which have been on the blocks for some time. The progress was seriously affected by the boilermakers' lock-out which lasted from 30th April till 24th November of last year. It is very doubtful whether the valuable time so lost will be regained during the succeeding contract building period. Immediately after the settlement of this dispute both firms made such progress with the main structure as the short days and inclement weather permitted. At the present time there is over 1,000 tone erected on the blocks and a further 1,000 tons available for erection for each ship. The armour for the vessels is proceeding at a satisfactory rate. Work is proceeding on the "Effingham," "Frobisher," "Emerald," and "Enterprise," and it is anticipated that the first three will be completed during the next financial year, and the "Enterprise" in July, 1925. The delay in the completion of these ships has been due to the urgent need for economy. The essential work of Fleet repairs must, of course, be kept up to programme date, and, with the workmen which it has been possible to provide in the Royal Dockyards, it has not been possible to make more than very gradual progress in the construction of these ships. Furthermore, the "Emerald" and "Enterprise" were moved in 1920 from the contractors' yards at which they had been laid down, as it was the decision of the Government of that time that all outstanding new construction was to be moved to the Royal Yards. This removal of necessity involved delay. I am sure that that will meet with the approval of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor).
Work of the Fleet
During the past year the various British Squadrons have engaged in a series of exercises concerned with strategic and tactical problems and the advancement of gunnery and torpedo efficiency. It was during one of the many routine exercises of the Fleet that the disaster occurred to Submarine "L. 24," resulting in the loss of many valuable lives. I am sure that the House would think it quite proper and appropriate that some word of regret should be expressed at the loss of the many valuable lives of gallant officers and men who went down, and that we should also express our heartfelt sympathy with the relatives who were bereaved by that fatality. As is usual at this time of the year, the Atlantic Squadron has temporarily left Home Waters to join up with the Mediterranean Squadron, opportunity being thus taken of exercising battleships, cruisers, destroyers and other units in numbers, and as a fleet, an opportunity which is lacking at other times of the year now that the British Fleet is no longer concentrated in Home Waters. I should repeat that this is no new procedure. It is necessary to emphasise that in view of some statements that have been made and what has appeared in some sections of the Press. The months of January, February and March have for many years under peace conditions been taken advantage of to exercise combined British Squadrons in waters in which the weather may be expected to be more favourable than at home, and in which, consequently, the maximum amount of fleet work can be got through in the short time available prior to dispersion. Similar combined exercises took place in the Western Mediterranean in 1922, at the conclusion of which the Fleets joined with the French Fleet and went round to Toulon. Last year the Atlantic Fleet proceeded South in January, but, unfortunately, combined exercises could not then take place with the Mediterranean Fleet owing to the situation at Constantinople, which necessitated the presence of a number of vessels of both Fleets.
It is as well to call attention to the fact that on the occasion of the appalling earthquake disaster in Japan in September last, the Commander-in-Chief was authorised to spend a sum of £10,000 on foodstuffs and medical stores, and that he proceeded at once to Japan with five of His Majesty's ships to offer all possible assistance to the Japanese Government. The food and medical stores were gratefully accepted by the Japanese, their naval authorities arranging for their distribution. Rescue parties were landed from His Majesty's ships to assist generally, particularly British subjects and foreigners, to recover from the debris and give Christian burial to bodies of victims, and to salve valuable property from the ruins. Valuable assistance was also given by His Majesty's ships in maintaining communications by wireless. Accommodation in His Majesty's ships was also provided temporarily for members of His Majesty's Consular staff. I ought to remark here that the thanks of the Japanese Government have been received by His Majesty's Government for the services rendered in that connection.
His Majesty's ships have been present on many ceremonial occasions. Amongst others may be mentioned the conveyance of the bodies of Belgian soldiers from Dover to Zeebrugge, the conveyance of Senhor Gomez, the President Elect of Portugal, from England to Portugal, and the attendance at the inauguration of the present President of Liberia.
Dominion Co-Operation
During the recent Imperial Conference, opportunity was taken of the presence of the Atlantic Fleet in Home Waters for Dominion delegates to inspect the Fleet, both at anchor and at sea. With a view to encouraging trade, to foster Dominion interest in naval matters and to give His Majesty's ships more experience of long distance cruises in waters unvisited by the Navy for nearly 20 years, a Special Service Squadron, composed of "Hood" and "Repulse," battle cruisers, and five light cruisers, left England in November last for an extended cruise. The visits paid so far have proved very successful. During this world cruise His Majesty's ship "Dunedin" will replace His Majesty's ship "Chatham," in response to a request from the New Zealand Government that the latter ship should be replaced by a more modern light cruiser. His Majesty's Australian ship "Adelaide," by arrangement with the Australian Government, will accompany the Special Service Squadron during the latter part of its cruise. After remaining in England for about a month, His Majesty's Australian ship "Adelaide" will return to Australia.
Reference has been made in certain quarters to the paragraph in the Statement of my Noble Friend on Dominion Co-operation, where it is pointed out that the only system of naval defence which can meet with general approval is one in which each Dominion possesses naval forces of its own. It has been even suggested that this Statement embodies a new policy. Such is not the case. As was pointed out in a Memorandum accompanying the Statement of the First Lord explanatory of the Naval Estimates three years ago, the lines on which it was proposed to proceed were towards
"the development of Dominion Navies under the administrative and executive command of their own officers, each separate Navy being the responsibility of its own Government and embodying the particular characteristics and spirit of its own people; all, however, working in close co-operation and under the guidance of a common doctrine."
The Admiralty are working wholeheartedly to carry out this principle, both by means of interchange between the different navies and by the development of a uniform system of staff work and staff training.
Having regard to the fact that during the British Empire Exhibition there will be a large number of oversea visitors here, particularly from our own Dominions, and including a number of Dominion Members of Parliament who will be here under the auspices and partly under the hospitality of the Empire Inter-Parliamentary Association, it has been thought well that a naval review should be held at Spithead to enable many of our friends to see the Fleet and visit it if possible; and some promise has been made in response to a request that, if possible, some of the smaller craft shall be brought up the Thames in order that they may be visited.
Promotion, Education, and Vocational Training
I want to turn for a moment to the conditions of the men, and particularly to the prospect of the advancement of those on the lower deck. Generally speaking, advancement has been slow during the last few years owing to abnormal conditions caused by the War. Circumstances vary from branch to branch and grade to grade. A good deal naturally depends on the number of older men due for pension within the next few years, and these numbers depend roughly on the number of entries made in the different branches 22 years ago, the annual flow of entries very often being far from uniform. It would not be possible, without a great deal of trouble, to get out figures for all the branches and all the grades, but, without going into elaborate calculations, I think I can confidently state that there is every reason to think that the period of stagnation in advancement is now almost at an end.
Another side of the activities of the Navy will, I am sure, attract the interest of those who are concerned with what one might call the spiritual development of the Navy as evidenced in the instructional libraries and arrangements for vocational training to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Amery) referred last year. The men of the lower deck have for some years past expressed a wish for more opportunities in the direction of general and professional education. Libraries of books of a recreational type are already provided in His Majesty's ships, but next year it is hoped to provide a small reference library in the larger ships which will contain books of an instructional character.
Arrangements have been made to institute at the home ports a system of vocational training in trades suitable to the various branches of the naval service, the cost being defrayed by fees paid by the men under instruction, supplemented from service funds by a sum not exceeding one-half of the fees charged to the men; and for the attendance of men at classes at the muni- cipal technical schools at those ports where the subjects taught appear to be suitable to the needs of the men, one-half of the fees for such classes being defrayed from service funds.
Who defrays the other half?
I have already intimated that the remainder comes from the fees paid by the men themselves. Preference is given to men who are within 12 months of completing time for pension. Facilities are also extended to men invalided from the Service, provided that they can complete the course within a year of discharge. Commanders-in-Chief on foreign stations are authorised to put similar schemes into operation up to the limits imposed by local conditions.
Dockyards
Turning to the dockyards, one can report that the labour conditions in the dockyards during the current financial year have been generally stable, and no discharges on reduction have taken place. For the purpose of relieving unemployment during the winter months nearly 5,000 men were entered for temporary service. These men are due for discharge at the end of the month, but if the three new cruisers are laid down in the dockyards, as proposed, it will be possible to retain about 2,900 of them. I am afraid, however, that the additional work provided by taking the cruisers in hand will not affect Vote 9 and Vote 10 Departments, and it will be necessary to discharge some 1,500 men who were entered for temporary service in these Departments. It should be noted that 600 men are being absorbed in Vote 9 Departments, owing to increase of work and wastage. I think that here I might refer to the effect of the proposed new construction in employment outside the Royal Dockyards. Although three of the cruisers are intended to be built in the dockyards, their machinery, armour and gun mountings will be obtained elsewhere, and this work, together with the construction of the two cruisers and two destroyers proposed to be built by contract, will give direct employment to some 7,250 men in 1924–25, and to about double this number in 1925–26.
Admiralty Staff
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who has always taken a special interest in the size of the Admiralty Staff, will be interested in what I am about to say, particularly in regard to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), who asked last week why the numbers stood at 3,569 as against 2,072 in 1914. The increase in numbers is due to several causes:
(1) Increased or new work devolving on the Department as the result of Acts of the Legislature or decisions of His Majesty's Government, such as the Pensions Increase Act, Injuries in War Compensation Act, Merchant Shipping (Salvage) Act, 1916, Representation of the People Act, Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, Admiralty Pensions Act, 1921, the introduction of marriage allowance, the payment of Naval allotments weekly instead of monthly, the periodical revision of Naval officers' pay and allowances and of civil salaries and wages, the extended use of cost accountancy, etc.
(2) Work arising directly from the War. A staff numbering approximately 250 is at present employed on this account. This number will be very considerably reduced during the present month.
(3) The expansion of the Naval Staff, which was practically non-existent before the War, and the development of all technical and experimental services due to the introduction of new weapons and forms of defence, necessarily involve an increase in the staff of the Admiralty.
(4) Temporary loan of a staff of 65 draughtsmen, etc., from the Dockyards to deal with the designs of the new-cruisers.
These developments are responsible for increases of staff which greatly outweigh reductions possible on account of decrease in personnel or of ships in commission.
The House is, of course, aware that the Fleet is now no longer run on a coal basis, and, therefore, we are not so self-contained as regards our Navy at we were in the days preceding oil-driven ships. The House will be glad to know that arrangements have been made to maintain an adequate oil reserve to meet the needs of the Fleet; and in this regard I should like to say that the Admiralty feel a greater sense of security in this connection owing to the Government's decision to keep its control of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and to maintain the contracts.
Air Arm
Turning now to the much-discussed and vexed question of the relationship between the Navy and the Air Force. I regret to say that it has not been found possible to put into operation the arrangements recommended by the National and Imperial Defence Committee pending agreement as to the interpretation of, and means of giving effect to, the decisions of the Committee. For the elucidation of the points at issue the Government have just made arrangements which they hope may shortly enable the decisions in question to be put into operation, but even then some time must in all probability elapse before the question can be finally settled.
Could the hon. Gentleman say what arrangements the Government propose to make?
I have just intimated that the Government have just made arrangements for the points at issue to be considered, and have appointed a Committee.
Could the hon. Gentleman say whether the objections come from the Admiralty or the Air Ministry?
That is a matter which is under consideration, and I would rather not answer that question now.
Can the hon. Gentleman say how many ships are fuelled with oil and how many with coal, and what is the difference between the coal consumption before and since the introduction of oil?
That is a point which I suggest had better be raised in Committee, when I shall be able to deal with it.
Proposed New Construction
Apart from the completion and the progressing of vessels actually in hand, there is in Votes 8 and 9 of these Estimates a provision of a little under £1,800,000 for the building of five new cruisers and two destroyers. In accordance with the usual custom, the approval of Vote 1 by this House will authorise the laying down of these vessels. As regards the de- stroyers, I would remind the House that of the 201 destroyers now on the effective list 27 were completed in 1916, 54 in 1917, 67 in 1918, and 42 in 1919. For combatant purposes the life of a destroyer is only 12 years, one year's war service being counted as two normal years. It will therefore be necessary to commence the replacement of destroyers in 1927–28, or possibly in 1926–27.
May I ask since when it has been the practice to count one year of war service as equal to two years of peace service?
If the hon. and gallant Member will allow me to proceed, I will deal with that. I had anticipated the question. As the type of destroyer required for work outside the North Sea area differs from the existing type which was built for work in that area, it is necessary to build two in order to try them out before the large replacement programme is undertaken. The building of these two destroyers is, therefore, a matter of urgency, unless we are to risk wasting cur money in future by embarking on a large programme of vessels of an untested type.
Now I will turn to the proposed construction of the five cruisers, about which there appears to be considerable misapprehension. I want to emphasise that these cruisers are part replacement of the County class cruisers, which have already been scrapped but were not replaced owing to the urgent need for economy. The consequence is that, for the last two or three years the number of cruisers available for the protection of our worldwide trade has been below requirements, which depend primarily on the length of our trade routes and the volume of our sea-borne trade, and only to a limited extent on the numbers possessed by other countries. The time, however, has now arrived when this replacement construction can no longer be delayed, in view of the large numbers of light cruisers which will during the next few years reach an age at which they can no longer be relied upon as efficient units. The proposed construction is, therefore, strictly consistent with the policy of ensuring the maintenance, with the strictest regard to economy, of the Navy at the accepted standard of strength and in a state of efficiency.
Can the hon. Gentleman explain what exactly is the standard of strength adopted by the Government
I think the Noble Lord will find that all the points will be met. If not, perhaps he will raise in Committee anything that I may have left out. Of the 48 light cruisers now possessed by the British Empire, 10 are, or become, over their efficient age this year. Practically all the remainder were built during the War for work in the North Sea, and 18 of them have a small tonnage and low endurance only, and are, therefore, unsuitable for operations on the long ocean trade routes.
In calculating the efficient life of a light cruiser experience has shown that one year's war service must be taken as equivalent to two years' normal peace service. Vessels with care may last until they are 20 years old, but they cannot be regarded as entirely efficient units. This is no new formula adopted by the Admiralty to strengthen their case for the construction of the five cruisers. As long ago as 1921 it was pointed out to the Cabinet that the life of 17 years for light cruisers was excessive, that 15 years is the normal peace life, and that the effective life of those light cruisers which took part in the War could not be assessed as longer than eight to 10 years. I think the House will agree with this view when it is remembered that, during the War, cruisers, which of necessity were built as rapidly as possible, had continuously to steam at high speeds and to keep the seas in all weathers. Moreover, their War refits had to be carried out hurriedly and at greater intervals than would in normal circumstances be considered necessary. To show that the life assessed by the Naval Staff is not over-generous, I need only add that one cruiser, which does not become over age till 1926–27, has already become prematurely worn out and has been converted into a volunteer drill ship. Another, which also does not become over age till 1926–27, is already experiencing trouble, and it will probably be proved uneconomical to refit her.
It may be asked whether foreign light cruisers should not also count one year's war service as equal to two normal years. This question has been carefully considered by the naval staff, and, although there may be some instances in which foreign light cruisers did an equivalent amount of work to that done by our light cruisers, this was the exception. It is considered, therefore, when calculating relative strengths, that one year's war service of foreign light cruisers should only be considered as one year's peace service.
That is a reflection on the dockyards that built our ships.
Does the same rule obtain for the men?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman runs his motor car for 20,000 miles, it will wear out twice as quickly as if he runs it for 10,000 miles, and the same applies also with regard to ships.
To sum up, of the 48 cruisers now on the effective list 10 are, or are about to become, over age and no longer fulfil requirements adequately. In fact, one is shortly to be put in the material reserve, which is next door to the scrap-heap; and, by the time the five proposed cruisers are completed, 11 or 16 now in commission will have been scrapped or relegated to the reserve. The House has already been informed that the Government have appointed a Cabinet Committee to consider the requirements of the Navy as regards the replacement of units of the Fleet, and normally the question of the building of the new cruisers would have awaited the consideration of the Committee's recommendations, but, in view of the urgency of cruiser replacement and of the serious unemployment, the Government decided that the laying down of the five cruisers should be submitted to the House for approval with these Estimates.
Would the hon. Gentleman allow me to ask him a question?
Perhaps I may be allowed to proceed with my statement. Having regard to the fact that it has been suggested that the chief reason of the Government for taking this line has been that of unemployment, I would point out that there is no warrant whatever for any such suggestion, either in the statement I am now making or in the previous utterances made from these benches by the Government. We have placed first and foremost the needs of the Navy, and the need for replacements, in order that the Navy might be kept at some fair measure of efficiency. That it does give a certain amount of employment is a thing for which we are grateful and of which we are bound to take knowledge, but the House and the Government have consistently taken this view. [ Interruption. ] I will deal with the interruption, which I expected from the hon. and gallant Gentleman behind me, that that has not been the position taken up by the Government. I may refer him to the statement of the Prime Minister on the Motion for the Adjournment on 21st February.
Did not the hon. Gentleman himself make a statement?
I answered the question and I gave my own statement as well, but, after all, the Prime Minister is the head of the Government, and in his statement he said:
"There is no increase in our naval strength if we begin to build those five cruisers this year, because they are purely for the purpose of replacing a certain type of cruiser with a wide range, which is wanted. We want five of them now in order to keep up what is practically the existing standard."
Later my right hon. Friend said:
"Are we going to be told that the way we are going to carry out those pledges is to allow the Navy to disappear by wastage from the bottom?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st February; col. 2129, Vol. 169.]
After that reference was made to the fact that regard would be had to unemployment. Surely it is evident that that is quite a secondary and subsidiary consideration. [ Interruption. ] I am sorry to rob hon. Members below the Gangway of their thunder, but the facts are; is stated, and the view has been consistently held by the Government in spite of newspaper articles written on wrong lines. When I wound up that Debate on the same night I said:
"We have to replace many that are now obsolete and practically useless and there are only about four which, from sheer old age, as judged by naval requirements, are falling out of use."—'[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st February; col. 2154, Vol. 169.]
All along the Government has kept consistently before them and before the House and the country that the real reason for the cruisers is actual replacement to meet the ships which are falling out or have already been scrapped and those which are in danger of being scrapped. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Wedgwood Benn), in an article yeterday in the "Star," says this matter has been the cause of considerable alarm in foreign countries. A statement like that is calculated to be very mischievous, and it has no foundation in fact. The discussion on the Adjournment took place on 21st February, and as recently as 12th March "Le Temps," referring to our particular naval programme and to our cruisers in the Mediterranean, said:
"I see nothing especially disquieting in these facts from the point of view of Mediterranean countries and it is only fair to state that Great Britain has considerably reduced her naval strength."
I suggest that that disposes pretty effectively of the matters which have been raised in some quarters.
Wait and see.
I have no doubt the hon. and gallant Gentleman will add to the premises of his own erection for which there is no foundation in fact.
Singapore Naval Base (Government Decision)
I want now to turn to another phase of our naval programme which has aroused considerable attention in the House and outside. In Vote 10 there is an amount of £12,500 with regard to the Naval Base at Singapore. I want to make it quite clear that that is not for any new commitment but is simply with regard to the clearing up of certain work which has been left. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook, in introducing the Estimates last year, made a statement as to the need for a new dock at Singapore. I quote his words:
"on the direct route to the Far East and on the flank of our commercial and strategic line of communications with Australia."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th March, 1923; col. 1099, Vol. 161.]
This matter has engaged the close and earnest consideration of the Government as one involving questions of much wider implication than that of naval strategy. After full consideration of all the relevant facts and consultation with the Dominions Overseas, the Government have
As the hon. Gentleman is so courteous, will he allow me to put one question? He said he intended to read to the House the original statement which he, as representing the Admiralty, made in answer to a question by private notice on 21st February last as to the only reason why the Government had decided to proceed with the laying down of the cruisers.
I am certain the right hon. Gentleman has the information which he asks, and therefore I will not delay the House by answering him. I have already given him the statement made by the Prime Minister, and my own statement in winding up the Debate, as to the position we now take up, and have consistently taken up in regard to these Estimates. I present these Estimates with confidence, trusting the House will pass them and give us the Votes as speedily as possible, and will recognise that the Government will endeavour to carry on the best traditions of the Government and of the Navy, and that we are giving an earnest of our desire to give a lead to the other nations of the earth, and that we shall make a big step forward in the days to come in regard to the establishment of a world peace.
The Prime Minister promised the House that we should have the answer of the Dominions. So far, we have had no mention of the attitude taken by them.
A full statement will be made during the course of the Debate on the whole matter.
Can we not have it now?
I ought first of all to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on a clear and businesslike exposition of the Estimates. He kept close to the rails the whole time and took good care not to let himself be diverted. There is a good deal in the Estimates which naturally is a continuation and would have been in them in any case, and as far as that is concerned, if there are things with which I am not wholly in agreement it would hardly be fair to blame, and as regards other matters hardly decent for me to praise. On the actual finance of the Estimates I should like to say this much. They are £2,200,000 below the Estimates of last year. They are, of course, very much more below the Estimates which I should have regarded it as my duty to submit to the House if I had been in the hon. Gentleman's place. Our Estimates would have included the full provision of £5,000,000 for the programme of cruiser construction and the construction of other vessels, not only from the point of view of unemployment, but primarily also because for naval needs we regarded it as desirable to lay them down. With regard to the actual reduction, I should like to draw attention to two points. One is that to the extent of £1,300,000 the reduction is accounted for by a reduction of £800,000 in war charges and an increase of over £500,000 in Appropriations-in-Aid. For the rest it is largely accounted for by a somewhat novel financial expedient. That is the expedient of discounting for unforeseen and exceptional contingencies. It is true that in the last three years certain exceptional contingencies arose, more particularly owing to labour disturbances, which found us at the end of the year under-spending our Estimates because we were unable to fulfil the work which we considered necessary. This year the First Lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have apparently agreed to estimate for troubles of this sort, in fact, to use the First Lord's phrase,
The hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the point to which the strength of the Navy has been reduced, pointed out that, making allowance for differences in cost, the Navy to-day only costs what it cost just over 20 years ago. But I think it might equally interest the House to have some idea of the reduction in actual strength which has taken place since the War period. In 1913 we had 62 capital ships in the service, 30 of them in full commission. To-day we have 22, presently to be reduced to 20, with only 15 in commission. In 1913 we had 115 cruisers on the effective list; to-day we have 48. In 1913 we had 150,000 men on the books of the Navy and to-day the figure has been reduced to 100,000. In all these respects it is desirable that the House should realise the tremendous reduction which has taken place in our naval strength since the years preceding the Great War.
Coming back again to the Estimates, there is one very important omission to which I should like to draw attention, and that is the omission from the Estimates of the cost of the Fleet Air Arm. I think it was understood—I certainly understood it—that, as an outcome of the discussions and of the Cabinet decision last summer, it was definitely settled that the cost of the Fleet Air Arm should figure upon the naval Votes, and should be debited to the Navy as the user Service. I fully realise that at the present time discussions are proceeding between the Admiralty and the Air Ministry, which the Government are taking into consideration, as to the precise interpretation of the detailed recommendations of Lord Balfour's Committee. I do not want to go into that matter at the moment. I agree with the hon. Member that perhaps we had better not go into these details until the Government have considered them. But whatever the precise extent which that Committee intended that the Air Ministry or the Admiralty should be responsible for supply, personnel, the training of personnel, at any rate on shore, and the supply of material, I think that in all its recommendations, as I read them, there was the underlying assumption that for combatant purposes, for the purpose of the use of the Fleet Air Arm, the Air Arm was a portion of the Navy. If that be so it is desirable, if the House and the country are to understand what the total costs of our naval commitments are, that the Fleet Air Arm should figure upon the Naval Estimates. That raises an underlying question of principle, which I trust the Government will be clear about when they deal with these various matters of detail, and I hope we may have an assurance from the hon. Member that when the outstanding points are settled, and however they may be settled, the actual cost of the Fleet Air Arm will be presented with the Navy Estimates.
There are one or two other points in connection with the Estimates to which I hoped the hon. Member would make some reference. In the First Lord's statement it was mentioned that the pay of officers will, in accordance with the recommendations of the Jerram Committee, be subject to a certain reduction on 1st July next. I wish he had also been able to tell us whether the Admiralty now feel themselves in a position to inform the House whether, in connection with any modification of the pay of officers that may then take place, they will be able to find room for the demand, so often repeated in this House and so essentially justified, for some form of marriage or, as I would prefer to put it, some form of family allowance for officers. I also hoped that in connection with the same question of pay, when dealing with the other ranks and ratings in the Service, he would give us some general assurance with respect to the reductions in the pay of other ratings which may conceivably accompany any reduction in the pay of officers. I would make a very earnest appeal that those reductions should be of the most limited character, and that nothing should be done to interfere with the splendid type of highly-skilled men and admirably-disciplined men whom we are bringing into the Service to-day. The hon. Member referred to the Empire cruise. Not the least satisfactory part of that cruise was the splendid example of the rank and file. Throughout, their conduct was becoming gentlemen who wear His Majesty's uniform. I did hope that the hon. Member would be able to say whether any reductions are in contemplation or not; I hope they may not be. In any case, I hope that nothing will be done that will affect the pay or prospects of any men now serving who entered the Navy under what they clearly understood to be definite undertakings.
As far as the officers are concerned, the reduction will amount to 5½ per cent., and no more. As far as the ratings are concerned—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up, we cannot hear you!"]—those who are in the Navy now will not be affected. [HON. MEMBERS: "We cannot hear what you say."]
The hon. Member said that with regard to the ratings, those who are now in the Navy will not be affected. I am very glad to hear that decision. The hon. Member also made a passing reference to the question of the Admiralty's share in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. I am very glad that he did not justify that participation on any abstract ground of preference for State-ownership, even in another country, but on the definite and practical needs of the Navy to have some control over the supply and price of a; material absolutely indispensable to the mobility of the Navy. There has been a certain impression created in the Press that the late Government had practically decided to dispose of its share in that company in order to facilitate a wide merger of oil interests. I think it has been made perfectly clear in this House, in question and answer, that that particular matter had never even reached the stage at which it could have been remitted for serious investigation by a Committee preliminary to Cabinet consideration, as was done with certain not very dissimilar proposals a year or so before. I can say, from the Admiralty point of view, that in so far as any proposals were informally put forward, there was nothing in them which could in any way have overcome the very strong objection which the Admiralty has entertained to abandoning this control which it at present enjoys, and which it believes to be of very great importance to it from the point of view both of price and of the security of its supply. So much for what I might call the minor matters contained in the hon. Member's speech, with most of which, to that extent, I find myself in considerable agreement.
I now come to the two major points which affect the security of this country and of the British Empire—the cruiser position and the decision, the very regrettable decision, and the so-far wholly unexplained decision, in regard to Singapore. In regard to these discussions I feel a difficulty, for while some of us are talking in terms of strategical needs, assuming the necessity for defence, other hon. Members are closing their ears to our arguments because they are thinking on an entirely different plane, in terms of what we might do by our example to help on the peace and disarmament of the world. If it were possible I should like to get on to the same plane with hon. Members by getting out of the way, in the first instance, those wider questions of what should be our policy in respect to this matter. We had in this House a most interesting Debate last night, in which speeches of a very suggestive and very thoughtful kind were made by some hon. Members sitting behind the Front Bench opposite, as well as speeches which, however sincere, were obviously, I think, entirely out of harmony with the general sense of this House.
If I might venture to attempt to state the general feeling of this House it would be that we all desire peace, both in the interests of the Empire, which has all the territory in the world that it needs and all the resource that it needs, and whose whole interest lies in peaceful self-development, and also from the wider point of view of promoting the peace of the world. We are all in favour of peace, and in so far as a reduction of armaments would be not only an economy but would to some extent contribute to peace, we are also in favour of that, though many of us, including some hon. Members opposite, realise that it is not armaments as such that create war but that it is policy, the desire for expansion, discontent with existing territory and the desire to have that which is your neighbour's, which lead, by way of armaments, to war. The great problem is, how are we to secure the disarmament of the aggressor. It is always easy to secure the disarmament of the peace-lovers, they are naturally anxious to disarm, but that does not make for peace.
The only thing that can make for peace among nations, as in the domestic life of any society, is the disarmament of the disturber of peace or the aggressor. What we must endeavour to do is to see how by demonstration of pacific policy, by good will and by good example, in so far as any risk so involved is justifiable, we can encourage not only ourselves but nations that may be tempted into the path of agression, to cut down pari passu with ourselves their armaments, so that without any increase in the danger of the world which would ensue from unequal disarmament we can produce a situation in which the peace-loving can maintain peace for themselves and for others and at the same time do so with a lesser total burden of armaments.
5.0 P.M.
One hon. Member opposite spoke last night of this question as one that required medical diagnosis. I would rather, if I may, say something about the medical history of the case, because this movement, an earnest sincere movement, I admit, which aims at doing away with armaments and causes of war by our giving a lead, a noble gesture it is sometimes called, in the direction of disarmament is by no means a new thing. An examination of the past shows how difficult, with the best intentions in the world, it is to secure peace merely by a demonstration of your own willingness to go unarmed. It is now 18 years ago since hon. Members in the Liberal party were returned by an overwhelming majority, pledged by their election speeches as completely for general disarmament and for giving a lead by weakening our own armaments, as hon. Members opposite. There were in that new Parliament of 1906, something like 150 Members who were members of an organisation known as the League of Liberals against Aggression and Militarism, more briefly described as "the Lambs." Among "the Lambs" in those happy days were the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and Mr. Churchill. Some hon. Members no doubt now consider that they were really disguised kids. Under the influence of those Members and of the Resolutions which they brought forward almost from day to day during the Session of 1906, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman's Government went back upon the moderate, sober and careful programme which had been laid down for a period of years in pursuance of Lord Cawdor's Memorandum, and they began a reduction of the Navy. There was another thing as well as battleships which was peculiarly distasteful to "the Lambs." It was the naval base at Rosyth. That base figured in the discussion of those days exactly in the same way as Singapore does to-day. Sir William Cremer referred to it as a direct cause of irritation to Germany. One result of the continuous agitation against the Rosyth base was that that base was not proceeded with as it should have been and that we suffered enormously during all the years of the War owing to the neglect to provide this country with a base in that strategical position.
Let me come back to the ships. In the two years following the advent to power of the Liberal Government, we dropped two capital ships from the programme. In fact, we dropped three, owing to the loss of the "Montague," which was not made good. We were building in the year 1906–7 only six capital ships against Germany's six. Next year we reduced to two, and Germany raised her building of capital ships to four. I do not want to go in detail into those incidents, but I think I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the whole history of that period shows that Germany took our initiative in reduction as simply an incentive to herself to renew her effort. Any efforts on our part to negotiate with Germany were met by the very blunt statement that the German programme had nothing to do with any ships which we were to build or were not to build, but was laid down from the point of view of her own interests. The position in 1909 was, that we were building six capital ships against Germany's ten, one armed cruiser against four for Germany, five protected cruisers against seven for Germany, and 25 destroyers against 24. When the country realised the situation we made a great effort, under the McKenna programme. We caught up with Germany and more, but the only result of our gesture, however well meant, was to stimulate Germany's shipbuilding, after negotiations, which only increased suspicion on both sides, and then when great efforts on our part had again to be made, they had to be justified by reference to the German danger. The whole situation during those six years was made worse and not better by that well-meant gesture. Again, in 1912, Mr. Churchill made an offer to Germany of a naval holiday, which was not taken up. I am not saying that it is not desirable to make offers of naval holidays, and that it is not desirable to try to arrive by agreement at disarmament, but I only give those illustrations in order to show how difficult it is to bring about the desired results unless there are those on the other side who are equally willing with ourselves.
By way of contrast to what I have said just now, I would like to point out what happened after the Great War. Immediately after the War we scrapped vessels on a scale which was intended not only to effect economy but to give a lead to disarmament in the whole world. It was an effort which at first seemed doomed to failure. The more we scrapped ships the more America and Japan committed themselves to great programmes of laying down whole new fleets of post-Jutland battle ships and battle cruisers. We then did two things, both equally essential to securing the limitation of naval armaments. We laid down four new super "Hoods." superior in design in every respect to any ship in the world, and we made it clear that that was only the beginning of a programme of replacement by which we would gradually bring our fleet of modern ships wholly up to the level of other fleets. At the same time we made it clear to the United States and Japan that we were only too anxious to bring about an agreement—an agreement affecting policy as well as reduction of armaments—and, armed at Washington with our all-persuasive goodwill on the one hand, and on the other hand our clearly shown resolve to maintain our relative position among the great navies of the world, we secured a Treaty which has very definitely limited the race of armaments and has involved immense economies not only to the taxpayers of this country but to the taxpayers of the world.
All I wish to say on that subject is that I would like hon. Members opposite to believe that we have ideals just as much as they have, but that ideals are not helped by ignoring difficulties. The true idealist is the man who realises all the difficulties, who realises the material he has to work with and the men he has to meet, and who still perseveres in his ideals. In the industrial world it is only the unpractical idealists who would suggest that strife should be abolished by disarming trade unions of their funds or proposing to make a universal system of compulsory arbitration. You have to work gradually towards peace and to use every opportunity you have. It is right to hitch your waggon to a star, but that is no reason for driving into the next ditch. That, I think, is also the conclusion to which the Prime Minister and the members of his Government have come. That is the attitude that they have taken up in regard to the cruisers and in regard to the air, in SO' far as we are a Power that has to defend itself by taking the necessary precautions which expert opinion tells them they ought to take. On the other hand, in the matter of policy, armed with these preparations, they are anxious, I believe, and I think they will have the good will of every Member of this House, to see what can be done to make the world more peaceful by their own contributions and by any agreement that can be made to reduce armaments. I have said this because I want to get on common ground with hon. Members opposite. I shall be talking about cruisers and about Singapore from the strategical point of view, but I want hon. Members to understand that that does not mean that at the back of my mind there is not always the possibility of something being done which might make the burden of armaments less in the world.
On the question of cruisers, I understand the whole replacement programme is one which is to be subject to close investigation by His Majesty's Govern- ment. That investigation will naturally take into account the two main functions for which cruisers are wanted. We want cruisers in the first place as an essential arm of the battle fleet. In so far as we require them for that purpose, it may be possible to fix a definite figure for the cruisers just as we did for the actual capital ships. But we also want cruisers for a very different purpose. We want them for the purpose of guarding the ocean trade routes of our Empire. We import into this country every week something like 6,000,000 tons of food of the value of £9,500,000 and 20,000,000 tons of raw material at the value of about £8,000,000. These are carried day by day by something like 1,400 ships, with another 1,400 ships in our harbours, over 80,000 miles of sea routes. If these sea routes are intercepted, this country and, to a large extent, every part of the Empire will be faced with economic panic and the fear, in our case at least, of actual starvation. As the Parliamentary Secretary said very justly, it is our needs and not the programmes of other countries which in that matter must dictate our policy.
That is what the German Emperor said.
Yes, but he was not referring to sea routes all over the world which have to be defended as we have to defend them. In an interesting answer, the Parliamentary Secretary said that in the last War, in dealing with two German cruisers, the "Karlsruhe" and the "Emden," 32 of our cruisers had to be employed. That was in a war in which we had an extraordinary advantage over our opponents in the position of this country, and the fact that our opponents had only one means of access to the sea. There is no other war, with any Power in the world, in which we could ever hope to be immune from cruiser raids over our ocean route as we were in the late War.
Was that before the convoy system was adopted or afterwards?
That was before, but even with the convoy system you will require a substantially larger margin of cruisers for defence than cruisers for offence. I would also remind the Committee that convoys mean an enormous reduction of carrying power. The system of convoys reduces enormously the amount which we can bring into this country in a given period. The position to-day is that we have 48 cruisers on the effective list of which only 20 are fit for commerce protecting purposes. The United States and Japan have 29 and 28 cruisers, respectively, all suitable for commerce destruction. Hon. Members may take the details from the statement given officially by the hon. Member opposite, but whatever means you rely on 20 cruisers, competing for commerce defence, are no match for a much larger number capable of commerce destruction.
This is a very important point. I am one of those who differ from the view that we have only 20 vessels suitable for commerce protection. We have 34 of the latest vessels all embodying the latest designs. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
When we have these different ideas on the part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and of the Admiralty, as to what is required hon. Members can draw their own conclusions. As regards the future we have got to deal not only with the present position of a fast vanishing fleet—in a sense every fleet is vanishing—but with the position in the next few years. The hon. Member has again reminded us that by the year 1930–31, 18 of our cruisers will have become obsolete. As it takes four years to build and commission a cruiser that means that we ought to lay down 18 cruisers in this year and the next two years. The position, as I gather from the hon. Member's answer, in five years' time from now, on the 1st April, 1929, is that we shall have 32 effective cruisers in commission as against 10 on the part of the United States and 29 on the part of Japan, and as Japan has 18 to-day it means that, of 29 cruisers, 11 will be new vessels commissioned after the present date whereas we shall have only four commissioned after this date.
That seems to me a very serious situation. The situation is very much the same when we deal with other classes of the Navy. The hon. Member referred to destroyers. Between 1929 and 1935, 177 of our destroyers will have become obsolete and will require replacement from 1926 or 1927 onwards at the rate of some 30 destroyers a year. The submarine position on April, 1929, is that we shall have 31 effective submarines, the United States 122, Japan 73 and France 63. That is not necessarily an argument for our building the same number of submarines. It may be, and I think that it is, much more an argument for building more cruisers. The right answer to submarines is not submarines in order to fight them, but cruisers in order to protect our commerce which is threatened by the submarine.
In that connection, I would like to say one word on the subject of airships. I regret greatly the decision, which the Government apparently have come to, to go back on the proposal that was under the consideration of the late Government, namely, to encourage private enterprise in airships so that if ever, and whenever, a war might come there would be the largest possible number of airships available to supplement the work of cruisers over the great stretches of ocean. We can never have enough cruisers on those great stretches, but we can save an enormous amount of work of the cruisers if, with these cruisers, we have co-ordinated a group of airships with the immense advantages of the wide field of vision and of speed which they enjoy.
The whole position in this respect is a serious one. It is not one with regard to which I am entitled to blame the present Government. They are going to enter into the matter, and I hope that they will come to a right decision. If any blame attaches, it attaches to myself and the late Government for allowing financial considerations to hold back, as long as they did, a programme which is now more than overdue. I know that I have been during my time at the Admiralty chiefly criticised for resisting reductions in expenses and for refusing to agree to recommendations made by a certain Committee. But I am much more afraid that I may be judged later on by the inadequacy of what was done during my time at the Admiralty, by the delay in meeting the need of our naval security. That need we were proposing to meet by the programme which was laid before the House last January. It was a programme which we undoubtedly commended because of the relief which it would give the unemploy- ment situation, but it was made absolutely clear that it was a programme which was necessary, and indeed overdue in many respects, from the point of view of our naval security. I only trust that the Government, in facing the position, will live up to the statement of the Prime Minister, that whatever our policy in promoting peace we are not going to promote peace by allowing the Navy to perish by mere wastage.
If I am not wearying the House, I would like to say a few words on the very serious decision which the Government apparently have taken in regard to Singapore. I would like to say, in the first place, that that decision is entirely inconsistent with the general line which they have taken on all these problems of defence, and indeed with the general line of their Naval policy. Look at the statement of the First Lord, in which it is announced that one of the things now being done is the reconcentration of the Navy in the Mediterranean, as being the more normal position. Why is the Mediterranean the more normal position for our Navy? Is it because we have any fear of aggression on the part of France or Italy against ourselves? It has nothing to do with either of them. It has to do with the fact that the "middle sea" is the geographical centre of the main highway of the British Empire, which stretches across the Atlantic to this country, thence to the Straits of Gibraltar, through the Mediterranean and the Bed Sea across the Indian Ocean and through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore to the Pacific and to Australia. That is the main highway to our Empire, and when our Navy is now reduced to a single battle fleet it is naturally placed in the centre of that great sea route, so that if required it could be sent at once in whatever direction might be necessary. The position of Malta as our great Naval centre has nothing to do with its geographical relationship to Italy. It has everything to do with its geographical relationship to Gibraltar and Plymouth, to Bermuda and Halifax in the West, and to the Suez Canal across the Indian Ocean to Singapore and to Fremantle in the East. With our territories lying at each end and on both sides of that route, we are entitled to expect that our Navy should be able to move freely between those territories of our own Empire.
We had that mobility before the War. We were always free until a few years ago to move our fleets from end to end of that line. Until less than 20 years ago one of our biggest battle fleets was always in the Pacific waters; our Far East squadron, which was, next to the Mediterranean and Channel Fleets, the most powerful of our fleets. As recently as the Imperial Conferences of 1909 and 1911 it was agreed that we should build up a Pacific fleet of the Empire, composed of three fleet units, each containing one capital ship and three other cruisers. The headquarters was to have been at Singapore. We came to that decision when we were allies of Japan, and at a time when we were practically allies of Russia, and when nobody suggested that there was any menace in that part of the world. Even then we thought it desirable, and the events which have happened since have shown that we were right, to maintain a fleet in Eastern waters. We withdrew the main part of that fleet under pressure of the last two years of concentration before the Great War, and because of that we suffered very seriously. The escape of Von Spee's squadron would never have taken place if the "Indomitable" and "New Zealand" had been in China waters, and we should not have had the disaster of Coronel, and should not have been compelled to detach two capital ships from the North Sea at a critical moment to make good that disaster.
All that the late Government were aiming at doing was to restore that mobility, in virtue of the fact that the War brought about two great changes, affecting the mobility of the Fleet, to one of which the hon. Member has already referred. That is the supersession of coal by oil. The other, to which he did not refer, is the size of the ships, which was enormously affected by the necessity of bulging them in order to deal with the submarine, a fact which affects the docking not only of battleships but also of battle cruisers and aircraft carriers. What is very interesting and curious is that the present Government are going on with our policy not only with regard to concentration in the Mediterranean, but also with regard to the oil-fuel stations. In these very Estimates there is a sum of £200,000 for the provision of oil fuel at Singapore. Though the mobility of our Navy on our great main sea route is apparently going to be preserved by supplying our ships with oil, we are apparently not going to help their mobility by enabling them to be fitted or repaired. They can have oil, but if any work is necessary they have got to go back to Western waters, all the way to Malta, a journey of several weeks, and they might very well sink before that could be done. The course now taken by the Government on this matter is inconsistent. The Prime Minister said on that question:
It may be asked why Singapore in particular? I need not give an elaborate answer. I will say briefly only this: Singapore, like Suez, like Gibraltar, like the Panama Canal to the United States, is one of the key passages of the world. It is the natural and only convenient gateway to the Indian Ocean. It covers the whole Indian Ocean against any raiding from without. I have noticed in the tone of many of the arguments on the subject a sort of suggestion that we were putting down an aggressive base in Japan's part of the world. It is many thousands of miles from Japan. Singapore is essentially in a British part of the world. It is actually the point of one of the richest and most progressive parts of the Empire. It is the key to the Indian Ocean, round which lies three-quarters of the land territory of the Empire. The great Southern Dominions, India, and our East African possessions lie around that ocean. Three-quarters of the population of the Empire is around it also. We have not a single base in all that vast region at which a modern ship could be fitted or repaired.
As was stated in an answer to a question the other day, there passes through that ocean every year something like £1,000,000,000 worth of our traffic and a great deal of other traffic belonging to the rest of the Empire. Something like £160,000,000 worth of our ships and cargo is afloat in that ocean at any minute of the day. Singapore is the one point from which the whole of that area can be effectively defended and protected. More than that. If Singapore were an enemy base, there is no other point from which any part of that great area could be protected. It is also the only station on the way to Australia and New Zealand by which the Fleet can move to their help. You cannot steam a fleet either from the Panama Canal or the Cape across to Australia and New Zealand. The only route by which help can come to the Southern Dominions is by way of Singapore. Once the Fleet is at Singapore it already covers the approach to these Dominions, and is in the best position to provide them with security.
Now we are told that the provision of a base in our waters, in British territory, territory that has been ours more than a century, is a menace to Japan. I do wish that people who suggest that would look at a large scale map. It is no more a menace to Japan than Plymouth is a menace to the United States or Key West to us. Singapore is not a menace to Japan. After all, if we wanted a menace to Japan, why give up that splendid defensive position at Hong Kong? We are told, however, that if not a menace to Japan, it shows a distrust of her. The Prime Minister knows that that argument can be used about every measure of defence. We cannot have air squadrons without being accused of showing distrust to France. As the right hon. Gentleman said very well himself the other day, we can never protect ourselves against misunderstanding and foolish conclusions. But I would like to say that the need of Singapore is not connected with Japan only. I pointed out just now that in any war, except one with Germany, we should have to deal with cruiser raids on a far more serious scale than in the last War. What is the base from which we can meet those cruisers? What is the position from which we can hope to keep cruisers out of the Pacific or out of the Indian Ocean? Singapore. In any war Singa- pore is the obvious cruiser centre, and it is not merely a question of a war with Japan.
But, when we are talking of the imaginary danger of wounding the susceptibilities of a foreign Power, is not there a real danger which we are ignoring—the danger of mortally wounding the susceptibilities of our own fellow-citizens in the Dominions? This matter of Singapore was arrived at by agreement with the Dominions. I notice in the First Lord's statement that he gives a good deal of space to the conclusions of the Imperial Conference. He gives the general principles which the Conference laid down as to the desirability of adequate naval bases. But he leaves out what the Resolution of the Conference goes on to say in the very next paragraph, that in the application of those principles to the several parts of the Empire concerned:
There is this further consideration: Is it not desirable sometimes to look a little ahead? Is it possible that, taking a long view, the naval defence of this great Empire can be maintained indefinitely by the taxpayers of this little island, with all their obligations in domestic matters and with the added obligation of air defence? That security can be attained only by the co-operation of all parts of the Empire in building up their naval forces on such lines that in the hour of danger they can form part of a single, united Empire Fleet. That is possible only if they can come together, can reach each other, and that presupposes a route along which they can move to each other's support. By dropping this project of Singa- pore, the Government are practically denouncing all co-operation with the Empire in future. I do ask the Government to pause before they come to a decision of such momentous importance. I think I can say that, whatever decision the House may reach to-day, when we on this side of the House are in power again we shall not lose an instant in resuming this scheme.
May I come back again for one moment to the broader consideration of the peace of the world? Is there any more fruitful avenue towards peace than in the co-operation of the various parts of the British Commonwealth, pledged to perpetual peace with each other, to maintaining a peaceful policy in the world and by mutual co-operation assuring that the peace can be maintained with the very minimum of burdens for armaments for each member of our partnership? Surely that is one of the most fruitful avenues we can pursue towards the reduction of armaments and the future peace of the world. That is the avenue which we are now lightly to abandon. In view of the very sensible line that the Government took on a number of other matters affecting our defence, I cannot understand why on this question they should be guided by so different an outlook. I would like to read to the House a recent statement made only a day or two ago by a very distinguished authority. He said, in reference to the Labour party: the test of their party, I willingly take up the challenge.
May I associate myself with my right hon. Friend who has just spoken in congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on his very lucid statement? I congratulate him, too, on presenting a large amount of information in very small compass. His speech was of only 40 minutes' duration, but it was admirable, and a model of what a Parliamentary statement should be. I may take views somewhat different from those of the last speaker. Probably I do so on many subjects. But I do not think he is half as pugnacious really as his speech indicates. After all, the party with which the right hon. Gentleman is associated entered the Wasington Conference. Personally I rejoice that there was some attempt at a limitation of armaments. When the right hon. Gentleman talked of the naval necessities of to-day, and talked of the pre-War days, I wished to asked him where is the Germany of to-day? Where is the Germany that is building huge armaments against ourselves? There is one subject, references to which I have always deplored in this House, and that is naval comparison with the United States. I hope that America will have the strongest possible fleet, for I am perfectly certain that it will be suicide for the great English-speaking peoples to war against each other.
With regard to Singapore, I understand there is to be some discussion later. Personally, I associate myself absolutely with the policy of the Government. It is not a question of obliterating Singapore. Singapore will still be there. It is a question of putting down two battleship docks at Singapore. In my judgment, that proposal was one of the most costly follies ever proposed to the House of Commons. I hope that those of us who, upon this strategic question, object to the Singapore project will not be described as wishful to "denounce all co-operation with the Dominions." That is not our policy. We wish, in this matter of Singapore, to see that a strategic question is properly considered —as this has not been up to the present. More than that, there is a limit to what the taxpayer can stand. If we are to protect every place in the world and every acre of the waters of the world, I do not know what the Estimates will be. I observe that my right hon. Friend the late First Lord not only denounced the present Government for their attitude on Singapore but announced the policy to be followed by his own Government when he comes into power again. I understood the right hon. Gentleman was not an official spokesman of the party opposite. I thought he had disagreed with them on a matter of domestic detail.
He is semi-detached.
I agree with every word he uttered about the magnificent discipline and superb services of the British Navy. British naval officers have often proved themselves good ambassadors for this country. Apparently the Prime Minister is in a difficulty with regard to Russia, and I commend him to the Navy if he is in search of a suitable ambassador. I make that suggestion in all friendliness. It is because I feel the Navy to be so important and its officers and men so valuable an asset of this country, that I protest to-day as I have protested heretofore against the Navy proper being made the sport of politicians. Since May, 1915, there have been eight First Lords of the Admiralty. I do not know whether the First Lord of the Admiralty is to be regarded as an important person or not, but if he is, surely the fact that there have been eight First Lords in nine years indicates that the occupancy of the office is being changed too frequently. How can any Department be conducted with efficiency in such circumstances? Imagine a great business changing its managing director every year! What has happened is that the Admiralty has got into the control of the permanent officials, and I propose to give a few figures relating to the permanent officials of the Admiralty and the dockyards. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave me an answer a few days ago in which he advanced some reasons for the increase in the number of officials at the Admiralty. I do not think his reasons were adequate. He said, quite truly, that before the War there were 2,000 officials at the Admiralty, and to-day there are 3,569. In 1914, the personnel of the Navy—the fighting men, the men who count— numbered 146,000, and there were 2,000 officials at the Admiralty. To-day there are 3,569 officials at the Admiralty and there are under 100,000 fighting men. I will give the comparison in another way. In 1914 there was one official at the Admiralty to 70 fighting men. To-day there is one official at the Admiralty to 28 fighting men. I commend these figures to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let me turn to the dockyards. In the outport establishment in 1914, when there was a personnel in the Navy of 146,000 and we were preparing for the German threat—
Who were preparing?
I say we were preparing for the German threat in 1914.
What about the mines?
As a matter of fact the Navy was ready in 1914. I do not wish to enter into these ancient controversies, but I am perfectly prepared to take up the hon. and gallant Member's point, and I will deal with the hon. and gallant Gentleman later on with regard to the mines. For the moment I am not to be diverted from my point. I am now referring to the outport establishment in 1914. In that year there were at the dockyards 57,800 men, and to-day there are 62,439, although the personnel of the Fleet has gone down from 146,000 to less than 100,000. That is to say, there were two dockyard men to five fighting sailors in 1914; now there are two dockyard men to three fighting sailors. We have a magnificent navy on land. In 1914 there were officers and clericals at the dockyards to the number of 3,249. On 1st February this year there were 4,558. Why are there so many extra officers and clericals at the dockyards? I hope we shall have an answer to that question from some representative of the Admiralty. As compared with 1914 there are 30 per cent. more officials, and only 6 per cent. more men, which is creating a great deal of discontent among the men. I have a letter here from Devonport, but I do not propose to read it.
Why?
I hope I may be allowed to make my own speech in my own way. I could read the letter if necessary, but I have a little mercy on the House. I have always said that since the War the strategic dispositions of the Admiralty have been disastrous, lament- able and expensive. They are very imposing for peace, but they do not visualise war. We have a multiplicity of small stations scattered all over the globe. Every one of these has to be defended, and they are defended by non-effectives. The oil fuel depots all over the world have to be defended. I was at the Admiralty at the commencement of the War, and I can visualise what will happen if—which God forbid—we were at war again. These stations, if they are within an enemy's power, would be destroyed unless defended with enormous forces, and all that requires a very large amount of money. It seems to me for the last four or five years that in these matters of naval preparation we should not be so feverish. The old lines, many of the old vessels, many of the old methods of warfare are obsolete. We want some calm and deliberate thought, and we want to weigh the lessons of the late War in considering how the taxpayers' money can be spent to the best advantage on defence. The advent of submarines and aircraft changed the whole conditions of naval strategy, and when I hear about one-power and two-power standards, I say they are all out of date. We have to consider our own problems, because we are an island country and we have to meet the altered conditions in which naval warfare will be carried out in the future.
I am glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that the two battleships were not laid down merely to provide employment, although I remember that questions were constantly being asked by hon. Members as to how many men were going to be employed upon them, and I remember that on one occasion an official of the Admiralty said it did not matter about the spending of the money because it would be spent in wages. There is, however, all the difference in the world between spending money on wages for the construction of battleships and in spending money on wages for productive employment. I disagree with the view that you can cure unemployment by utilizing labour upon armaments. I differ from that view entirely—no matter from what side of the House it is put forward. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] If everybody is agreed, then, do not use the argument of unemployment, but as a matter of fact everybody is not agreed. There was no such agreement at Plymouth. The late Government did not agree, and here I have the First Lord's Memorandum in which he says:
Relief, not cure.
Does anybody believe for a moment that you can cure unemployment by building up armaments? Let us get rid of that idea. It is a very significant fact that in all these matters the taxpayer is not considered. Yet we must consider the taxpayer because we have the heaviest taxation and the largest amount of unemployment. The argument which I put forward just now, that the Admiralty is in the hands of permanent officials and that there is no real driving power, is proved by the length of time it takes to build ships. Take the light cruisers. The "Effingham" was laid down at Portsmouth as long ago as 1917, and she will not be put into commission until this year. Seven years have been occupied in building that vessel. That is not economy, it is waste. When I was at the Admiralty, cruisers were built in 21 months, and battleships in a little more than two years. The case of the "Frobisher" is even worse. The "Frobisher" was laid down at Devon-port in August, 1916, and she will not be in commission until this year. That means her construction has occupied eight years. There could be no greater extravagance than that, and no private shipbuilder would attempt to carry on work on a ship so long, unless prepared to go into the Bankruptcy Court. Take the "Emerald" and the "Enterprise." They were laid down in September, 1918, and June, 1918, respectively, and they will not be ready until this year. We have been told that the life of a cruiser is 15 years. These vessels will be half obsolete before they are launched.
6.0 P.M.
I want to understand what the Admiralty are doing with regard to their large repairs. I see that they are having very large repairs to coal-burning cruisers. There are the "Vindictive," which was laid down in 1916 and is a coal- burning ship, the "Dublin," laid down in 1911, the "Lowestoft," 1912, the "Dartmouth" and the "Yarmouth," laid down in 1910, all coal-burning ships. I ask the Admiralty what is the necessity for large repairs to these coal-burning ships. They are out of date, obsolete, yet we are going to spend a very large sum of money on them. There is another topic I wish to raise, and that is the question of the number of dockyards. We have one more dockyard in this country now than we had before the War. Take Chatham and Sheerness. They are within bombing distance of the Continent, and they cannot be strategically planned. May I say a word to the Civil Lord of the Admiralty? I listened to his speech on the Address on 17th January with very great interest. He came here with a great reputation as being a very distinguished Labour leader, and this is what he said:
I turn to a subject which is of very great importance to the Navy, that is the Air. I have here the Report of the Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence on this subject: œgis of the late Lord Fisher, who wrote, in September, 1919: the approval of every naval Member of this House when I say that an Air Service is an absolute essential for the efficiency of the Navy.
What did they do with it when they had one?
I will leave my hon. and gallant Friend to develop that argument, but an Air Service is absolutely essential. The present position—and here I would endeavour to impress the Prime Minister and his colleagues—is impossible, it is indefensible, it is almost criminal. You have two authorities, with dual responsibility, and that cannot go on. It is disastrous. The Prime Minister said yesterday that this question between the Navy and the Air Force was going to be adjudicated. Does that mean arbitrated? You cannot arbitrate in such a matter as this. The Prime Minister said:
"The Government have taken steps by which the matters in dispute may be adjudicated when the decisions in question must be put into operation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th March, 1924; col. 20, Vol. 171.]
The point is this, that a Report, with recommendations, was drawn up under the old Government, and that a question has arisen between the Admiralty and the Air Ministry as to what was the meaning of certain provisions and how those provisions were to be applied. That is the question that has to be adjudicated.
I dare say I am dense, but I do not understand it, even now. Somebody is to be responsible for the Air side of the Fleet. Is it to be the Air Ministry or the Admiralty?
That is another point.
It is the crucial point. Lord Balfour's Committee, of whose Report I have a copy, tried to patch up the present system, but I do not think that is possible. You must have this under one head. I should not be in order in discussing anything that involves legislation, but I do say that the administrative functions of the Government can be brought into play and that you can have a great deal more co-operation between the Admiralty and the Air Ministry. Lord Balfour's Committee re- commended that there should be consultation between the Admiralty and the Air Force as to the appointment of officers. That is impossible; somebody must be responsible. Again, the Report says:
After all, the Navy has great traditions, and it has a wealth of technical knowledge that could well be placed at the disposal of the Air Force. The question of defence is really one problem. As Lord Balfour's Committee said, the sea-borne invasion risk has been considerably diminished, but the air invasion risk has been considerably increased. Therefore, the air is becoming more and more important, and surface ships will become less and less important. Therefore, I ask the Prime Minister, and I offer him this suggestion, that he should, so far as he can, co-ordinate these two great Services. There is a considerable amount of affinity between them, and the Navy and the Air Force could be of great help to each other. An airman must understand navigation, gunnery, torpedoes, and engineering, precisely the same as a naval officer. Therefore, I ask the Government to deal with this matter. They must deal with it. It cannot go on as it is. Let them deal with it as one great whole, the question of defence. Let them put the vast technical knowledge of the Admiralty at the disposal of the Air Force, and let them put some Air officers on the Board of Admiralty. As the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me said, we are an island with an enormous seaborne traffic, which we must defend, though I noticed, with some astonishment, that my right hon. Friend said we are importing a very large amount of raw material and food, and I understood he was one of those who wanted to tax imports; but here in this matter we have to bring our defence up to date, and I ask the Government to do that. These are new problems, and they require new minds. I offer these suggestions with all good will, and with no desire to embarrass the Government, but as the result of considerable thought, with a view to getting the defensive power of the country as cheaply as possible for protecting the trade routes of the country and this island against invasion.
I feel extremely obliged indeed to the right hon. Members who have followed my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty. They have been critical, but most helpful. I am in this extraordinary position, however, that in respect of two major questions I have the support of one side in one case and of the other side in the other case. I am not at the Admiralty, and I do not know a great deal about the technical points, in particular, that were raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who preceded me, but I will refer to one of his points in a moment. I should like to say, straight away, that nobody who has ever occupied my position could have held it with any sort of an inquiring and curious mind for six weeks without seeing how, if a Government or a head of a Government had the opportunity, one of the finest services that could be done to this country was to co-ordinate the defence forces of the country. We want them co-ordinated, in finance, in policy, in strategy, and I do not know, perhaps, how it is to be done. If a Government had the luxurious prospect of five years in office, and if I happened to be the head of that Government, I should certainly say that one of the very first steps to be taken by the responsible service authorities was to set about the discovery, the devising, of a scheme by which that co-ordination could take place.
But I rise to supplement somewhat what has been said by my hon. Friend regarding Singapore, and the only regret that I had in listening to the speech of my right hon. Friend opposite was the way he put his case regarding the Dominions. His criticisms were perfectly fair, and no objection could be taken to them, except regarding the way he had come to his conclusions. But I did regret that he should have suggested that what is being done by us now regarding Singapore is cutting ourselves off from co-operation with the Dominions, and, somehow or other, making it impossible for that co-operation to be carried on under different circumstances, and, perhaps, under different plans. I think part of his speech might have conveyed to the public an impression that Singapore at the present time is not a naval dockyard. I think he had not that in his mind, but I think if I had not known anything about it myself, listening to what he said, I should rather have had that impression. The fact of the matter is that Singapore at the present moment is a very efficient dockyard, and the proposal that was made was not to create a dockyard there, but to extend it in order to enable it to fulfil certain new functions. That is all the point at issue.
There are two preliminaries, I think, that ought to be cleared out of the way, first of all, the argument that is very often used regarding the Singapore scheme being contrary to any agreement that was come to at Washington. That argument is not sound. If we were to proceed with Singapore we would be guilty of no breach of word or understanding. It was perfectly well understood—I have gone carefully into this to satisfy myself about it—at Washington, that Singapore was excluded from the arrangement come to, and that the intention was very probably that we should complete, or rather extend, the dock at Singapore for new purposes. I think another preliminary ought to be granted. If we were driven to create a great Fleet in the Pacific for the purposes of a needed Imperial defence, then the strategical position of Singapore is second to none in the whole vast area of those waters. From the naval point of view, in all its aspects, either from the point of view of defence, or from the point of view of offence, Singapore, I dare say, would be chosen as the place for a great dock to be built. But these are only preliminaries. I am sorry to find that so many things said in favour of Singapore begin and end there. That is not the case; that cannot be made the case for Singapore. When the party opposite were in office, we were very suspicious of this, and we did everything we possibly could to get the Government to defend and explain their position. We were opposed to it, and we took up what was the proper attitude of an Opposition, that it was our duty to get every piece of information regarding the necessity of this from the Government who were making themselves responsible for the scheme.
We were not convinced by the Government's statement. As soon as we came into office, I took the view that we ought to make ourselves responsible for a complete exploration of the case for Singapore, because in those circumstances one can command documents, advice and information which no Opposition can command. We were certainly not coming to this House with a policy regarding Singapore about which we had never satisfied ourselves, and without making it quite certain that we could defend it. Thereupon, we began our exploration. Then newspapers told the country that we were weakening. There were certain newspapers, especially, I regret, associated with my hon. and right hon. Friends below the Gangway, that began to inform the public that we had abandoned our position, and, having run on for three or four days, and finding they were mistaken, they began to take credit for having compelled us to change our view again. Nothing of the kind. We have gone into the whole question. We have taken the advice of the Admiralty, and our position has been stated in a document, which is to be published. I will read the document to the House. It is long, but I think it is full of information regarding our position, put as briefly as it possibly can be put: which the Imperial Conference had decided should be kept secret. I propose to publish the documents, but the House, I am sure, will excuse me if there may be a delay of a day or two before they can be published. What I am now going to give the House is an impartial gist of what is in them: Laughter. ] That is a Free State. I am perfectly certain that no hon. Members opposite would have held me guiltless, or my right hon. Friends guiltless, if they had not regarded it as such. As regards India there seems to have been some misunderstanding regarding the communications made to that Government by our predecessors, and we have no definite opinion expressed by that Government. It may be that in the course of a day or so we may have those, and if they come before these complete communications are published they will be included with the rest.
From the above summary I think I may claim that we have a large measure of sympathy in the Dominions with our International policy; even if all parts of the Empire do not feel able to endorse the methods by which we consider that that policy should be carried out. The criticisms are founded in the main on the conception that the Singapore Base is essential as part of a complete defensive naval strategy in the Pacific. Should the practical necessity for putting such strategy into operation arise by reason of the condition of world politics, and a return to attempts to provide Imperial security primarily by armaments, the whole question would have to be reconsidered. But, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, that has not now arisen, and it is the duty of His Majesty's Government to try to prevent it ever arising. We have every confidence in our policy. We feel that the decision not to proceed with the naval base at Singapore will give that policy the best possible chance of success and is an earnest of our good faith.
There are one or two points that I might try to elaborate just for a minute or so. My right hon. Friend opposite, in the exceedingly interesting part of his speech, dealt with the point of the two planes upon which minds move when they approach this subject. He carried me with him nine parts of his way. There is the plane of the absolute idea, and there is the plane where a man holding the absolute idea, yet works upon what is until it becomes the ideal. That, I think, is the point which the right hon. Gentleman made, and I think it is a perfectly sound point. The position of the Government is the latter. I refer to the very important point raised by my hon. Friend on this side of the House in respect of coordination. I remember in the last Parliament listening to an extraordinarily interesting speech by the hon. and Gallant Gentleman the Member for Hallam Division (Major-General Sir F. Sykes), in which in reference to the air he raised the same point. That is perfectly right. I have said briefly already what is in my mind about that. There is a wider comprehension and co-ordination required even than that. National policy, the state of world politics, must be the considerations in every scheme of Army, Navy, and Air tactics. What we want— I do not know that we can get it—is some sort of authority which will always judge our defensive requirements not for the next 20 years but for to-day, for this next year, not in relation to some abstract scheme that the expert feels he is compelled to draw up, but in relation to actual world needs and the part that the particular nation that is facing the defence problems proposes to play in world politics. Until we get that, we will have our military experts running away year after year with schemes absolutely defensible from merely their own point of view, but not at all necessary, not at all defensible from the point of view of the general needs of the community for which these schemes have been drawn up. Therefore I put in a plea for a wider cooperation of national policy with national defence schemes. My hon. Friend to-day in the House made reflections about the effect on public opinion abroad of building the five cruisers. I think I can claim to be the barometer of that, and perhaps a somewhat sensitive barometer. I have no trouble about that—none at all! But the curious thing is that the trouble I have had has been upon small, very small, and very insignificent things like manœuvres in the Mediterranean. That is where the sensitiveness comes in.
From the naval point of view my hon. Friend gave an absolutely complete answer to that, an absolutely satisfactory explanation. But from my special point of view, the point of view of the Foreign Secretary, the explanation was not quite as satisfactory. Sooner or later this country will have to devise some means by which that co-ordination is to affect our defensive military manœuvres. So far as Singapore is concerned I say that we have created a Defence Committee with the Prime Minister as Chairman. That is an excellent idea, and an excellent machine if it could work. But it cannot work! It shows certain weaknesses—but I am being misled, I cannot be drawn off the point. I raised it because Singapore, the extension of Singapore is one of the most magnificent test cases demanding that wider cooperation of any that has happened in our lifetime. In the very excellent criticism the Commonwealth Government used an argument which, if sound, would be conclusive. It is this: The Prime Minister of the Commonwealth says that while agreeing with His Majesty's Government's general outlook as to how to handle the large problems of the world so as to get in the end disarmament, in his opinion it would be far better for us to go on extending Singapore for the purpose of scrapping it later on; but to hold our hands now in the hope that that would be more effective in getting an agreement. That is an argument that has been reproduced in other words by my right hon. Friend opposite to-day. I think they are wrong. We are not in 1906, thank Providence. The situation, policy, the setting of the board, is not what it was in 1906. So far as His Majesty's Government can do any good at all it will try to prevent such a setting as in 1906; but given the conditions of 1906 my hon. Friends opposite and my hon. Friends here could object to Singapore as long as they liked, but Singapore would be built, and Singapore would be used. That is what I should like to prevent.
What is our point of view regarding that argument? From the point of view of bargaining I consider that we are in as strong a position if we hold our hands, always letting the world know that if we are driven to extend, we will extend. The mere fact that you have spent £1,000,000 in building walls and in beginning docks that will take bulging, fighting Dreadnoughts, is no more effective when you have the other side, the Power which represents in the minds of hon. Members what Germany represented. The fact that you have held your hand, and you say to them: "There is my policy, there is my intention, there is proof of my intention," is as strong a card as if you said, "I spent £1,000,000 on building." It is a stronger card. I know perfectly well if I have to go into negotiations on that point and said, "I am building, but I will stop," far more suspicion would come out of the tail of the eye of my rival on the other side of the table than if I went and said, "I come to make an agreement with you, and if I cannot get it, I will have to begin developing my base." So far as actual advantage is concerned, it is quite as good as the other, but as far as moral sincerity is concerned it is ten million times stronger. I am convinced more and more that, unless we can bring some of the driving force of moral conviction behind the policy we are to pursue for the next two or three years, the sooner we go back to the conditions of 1906 the better for ourselves. Therefore I think my right hon. Friend's argument is not good. Therefore I think the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth's observations are not sound. This also has to be considered. There is some division of opinion in naval ranks about Singapore. Sir Percy Scott— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—I cannot judge between the merits of rival naval authorities, but it is there—Sir Percy Scott says:
There are other considerations I: am not going to deal with them because they are minor ones, but there is one thing I must emphasise and it is this. This country has a short time, and I am afraid it is only going to be a short time, during which it can rest absolutely sure that there will be no war that will overtake it within a certain limited number of years. We can use that time by merely trusting to the development of military defence, thereby encouraging and inviting every other country to trust to exactly the same thing; or we can use a year or two of that time in pursuing a totally different policy and keeping military affairs right down to the nucleus, keeping them efficient and with no rust. Do not make any mistake about that, no rust, no laziness, and no disintegration. Brains, thought, energy, decision all the time, but an absolute nucleus and nothing more than a nucleus. During that time this country ought to show the same energy, the same decision in pursuing other methods of security such as agreements, good will, arrangements, disarmament and steps towards dir-armament. His Majesty's Government propose to do the latter. From that point of view, if we fail, then we shall fail, and this nation will, unfortunately, have to go back to other considerations. I do not believe that there is a single man or woman, on whichever side of this House they sit, who would not profoundly regret that we should have to resort to such expedients. I am equally convinced that, unless a policy such as His Majesty's Government have just announced regarding things that can be postponed is pursued, we are not going to make use of the opportunities we have to avoid the horrors and the disasters that overcame the world a few years ago.
Owing to the limitation of time and the Debate arranged for this evening, it is not possible to pursue this subject as it should be pursued, because we are not in possession of the documents which the Prime Minister has promised to publish. Consequently, I merely rise on this occasion to say that on this side of the House we regard this decision as to Singapore as of such importance that we must bring it up at a later stage, and take a decision upon it. My hon. Friends on these benches will, therefore, reserve their right to speak till that day, as the general discussion can only continue for a brief period now.
New Cruiser Construction
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words, pense. We cannot afford to do it. The margin on which we live is extremely small. The poverty all round about us is greater than it has ever been before, and we cannot afford any additional burden of taxation. That is what our arguments amount to.
The other reason, as was so eloquently pointed out by the Prime Minister, is the terrible state of other countries besides our own, when practically all foreign relationships are very involved and are kept at a high tension pitch when the slightest action of any one country unless it is fully explained and they can see your motives are sincere is bound to lead to complications and disaffection and may end in another terrible catastrophe, not only to this country but the world and humanity as a whole. The question of the national needs of this country can easily be seen from the figures available showing the strength of this country in comparison with the others. Since the 21st of last month a great many figures have been given in answer to questions put from all sides of this House.
Those figures are rather difficult to follow especially after we have seen this new White Paper which has been circulated, and which to my mind does not always coincide with some of the answers we have received before. The Prime Minister told us that the life of a cruiser is fifteen years, but the next day my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) put a question about the light cruisers built and actually building less than 12 years old, and the answer given was that we had 46 light cruisers and 4 building; Japan had 16 cruisers and 6 building; France had 4 and 3 building; United States 7 and 3 building. Those figures show an undoubted preponderance and that there is no national need at the moment. On the same day, in answer to a question by the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon), we were given an answer to a question which gave the following figures: The British Empire 48 cruisers, the "United States 29, Japan 28, and France 16. I want to call attention to the curious footnote in which it says: 7.0 P.M.
I contend that that answer is not strictly accurate, and the White Paper which has been issued shows that those figures are not correct and have been given rather to bolster up a weak case. If only 20 of our cruisers are suitable for commerce protection, what of the other 28? They cannot be suitable for commerce destruction. Surely they must be suitable for commerce protection around these shores. They are not completely useless. If you look in that White Paper you will see that they are not. I presume it was due to the preponderance given to those figures that they had to be qualified in some way; and so, because the Prime Minister on 21st February said that the life of a cruiser was 15 years, we had it qualified and, in answer to a question, it was stated it was found that with light cruisers one year's war service should count as two years' peace service. You say that is no new doctrine; that it was laid down in 1921. But was that taken into consideration when you were adding up the figures of the other countries? Does it equally apply? The whole of this question has been dealt with in these answers and questions not in an absolutely straight way so as to get at the real national figures. We on these benches would not for one minute oppose if we thought that there was a genuine need for these cruisers. We have got nothing but shuffling replies, and they have not proved the case.
There was another question on that day in which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) asked as to the state of Japan. The answer stated that the Japanese estimate had been lowered by £5,360,000 and that their programme was retarded by one year. We all had a right to expect that the policy of the Admiralty would be guided by that fact; not only the policy of the Admiralty, but, far more important, the policy of the Cabinet and of the Government, because they are the people who deal with these big questions of proportion to other countries. Of course, the Navy will always want what it can get, but this is a bigger question than that. We do object to the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary to a supplementary question, where he said that our programme was made up without regard to anybody else. I cannot believe that the Prime Minister really supports this motto, and that that is to be his policy in regard to this question. I should very much enjoy hearing him argue this question of relativity with that great pundit, his own Lord Chancellor.
But in the Prime Minister's speech on 21st February and in the First Lord's statement accompanying these Estimates, there has been this theory of replacement running through, and the sweeping statement is made that it has got to be done because it comes under the heading of replacement. This new theory that, because a thing once was, it has got to be continued, regardless of cost and of circumstances, is absolutely against the basis of life. Does the Prime Minister seriously contend that if he had been in power directly after the War not a single battleship, not a single armament, could have been cut down for fear that it might transgress this new amazing law pf replacement?
We come now to the other question, on which we on these benches do make our great appeal for reconsideration of this matter, namely, this theory of the question of building for unemployment. It is a most dangerous doctrine, and one of the most improper ones that could be put forward, especially by the Government of to-day. On the question of unemployment, the Prime Minister, on 21st February—because of a Motion which had been moved by us—with great eloquence and with great passion, turned to us and said: quite improper to contend that this must be done for unemployment. The whole point came up on unemployment, because it was in October last year that the late Prime Minister, when he was seeking rather blindly to find some policy to deal with this terrible unemployment, suddenly hit on the idea of having two policies for it, one of which was the premature laying down of light cruisers, and the other Protection. He believed in his policy and he put it before the country. Speaking at Castleford, on 29th October, 1923, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Philip Snowden), referring to the Protectionist proposal of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, said:
After all, it was said by Chancellor von Bulow in Germany in 1903, when the Socialists and Radicals went to him to ask him to reduce the estimates, that he could not do so because of this same argument put forward now, namely, that it would throw men out of work. It is an absolutely false theory. I do not believe for one minute that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can believe in it, when we think of the terrible results of that policy. The whole cost of this construction is admitted to be over seven millions of money, not to speak of the enormous upkeep after the ships have been completed. I cannot believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer really considers this a matter which can be lightly thrown away and I honestly do believe this, that, if the Prime Minister were in opposition to-day, he would not lead his party into the Lobby in favour of this proposal. I absolutely challenge him to say that he would. Was the House to return to the Conservative policy of the last Government which was defeated, or was it really prepared to stand by what it was returned for, and by the knowledge that it does understand the terrible circumstances and difficulties of to-day? It is not a question of national need. We have not had any proof that there was a national need for this building, and it is for that reason that we have put this Amendment down.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I only wish to supplement the informative speech of my hon. Friend, who moved this Amendment, with a few remarks which I hope may be relevant and which, at any rate, will be brief. I desire, first of all, to say, quite frankly, because I believe that certain hon. Members above the Gangway have suspicions of us in this matter, that this is not an attack on the Government from the point of view of tactics or policy of a party nature. I say deliberately that it should have the support of everybody below the Gangway, for it is one on which we feel very deeply, and on which we have a consistent record. It is also a question on which we are competent to speak, from the point of view of economy in armaments. The solitary excuse which could justify this expenditure, in our view, would be a national necessity. I have not yet in any speech in this House, in any article in a newspaper, in any remarks or answers to questions put to the Admiralty, found any basis whatever for an assertion that national necessity justifies the construction of these ships. I should like, before I deal with the cruiser strength of this country and of other Powers, to make one comment, which I know the Civil Lord, whom I see in his place, will take to heart. The White Paper, issued to-day, which I have very carefully studied—the question has already been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for East Norfolk (Mr. H. Seely)—differs entirely from the answer given by the Admiralty to the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon). In that answer it was stated that the numbers of light cruisers were: British Empire, 48—which is entirely borne out by the White Paper; United States of America, 29; and Japan, 28. There are, according to the White Paper, 16 Japanese cruisers—
Seventeen?
Yes, 17, but if the Noble Lord will look he will see that one of them is very antiquated. At the outside—
Is the Noble Lord antiquated?
It is one of the cruisers that is antiquated. The Noble Lord is only antiquated in his ideas. If the Civil Lord will look at the White Paper, he will see that it gives a "Return showing the Fleets of the British Empire," etc., etc.,
One or two words might be said with regard to the cruiser strength of the three great naval Powers. I regret to have to refer again to the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea, but he also gave some figures, on which he challenged contradiction, on the occasion when my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) moved the Adjournment of the House on this question. I have not the Noble Lord's figures here, but I have read them through to-day, and they are so wide of the mark that they hardly need refutation. One of the figures that he gave—he will correct me if my memory is at fault—was that this country had 11 cruisers, but to-day I perceive from the White Paper that we have 48, and of these 40, even taking the Admiralty calculation of two years for one year of war service, are less than 15 years old. The United States have actually seven cruisers in existence which are less than 15 years old, and the extra ones, in the same way as the cruisers that were attributed to Japan in the answer given to the Noble Lord, are all obsolete. They are of the class which, I believe, was known before the War as armoured cruisers, a class, which I understand, no longer exists as a separate category.
The United States have seven which are less than 15 years of age, eight which are more than 15 years of age, and three building. The Noble Lord will say that they also have eight projected, of the most modern sort armed with 8-inch guns, and I have heard that argument used before in this House. But everyone who has studied the question knows that the money has not yet been granted for those cruisers, and is not in the least likely to be granted. Probably the only thing that would induce Congress to grant this money is the action which it is now proposed to take here. I have no desire, nor has anyone, to suggest in this Debate that our naval preparations should be undertaken as against America; but I do say that, unless we are to take at its face value the declaration of the Parliamentary Secretary that we regard the programmes of no other countries in making our own Estimates—and I cannot really believe that to be exactly true—there must arise the question of the naval strength of some other Power; and the only Power which is at all comparable with this country in regard to naval strength, except the United States, whom I think we may leave aside as a potential enemy, is Japan. Japan has 13 cruisers built which are under 15 years of age and four building; and none of those at present in commission are armed with anything heavier than 5·5-inch guns.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the answer given by the Admiralty on the 5th March stated that Japan has 19 built and six projected?
Sixteen.
The actual figures, if I may quote the White Paper, are 16 built and six building, and, taking the figures given in the answer, it will be found that there are 16 built, four building—one of which was seriously damaged by the earthquake—another building of a different class armed with 6·8-inch guns, and one, the "Mikado," which has been named but has never been laid down. The noble Lord will see from the White Paper that no date is given for its being laid down. That is the Japanese strength, and to that has been added, in the answer given to the noble Lord, a large number of Japanese ships which do not even appear as armoured cruisers in the White Paper. We have also to consider the fact that, not only are we immensely superior in light cruisers to Japan and to America, and, indeed, to both combined, but that the Japanese Naval Estimates have this year, owing to the financial stringency caused by the earthquake, been reduced by £5,360,000, and that the £10,000,000 voted—which, no doubt will be quoted by hon. Gentlemen opposite—has been voted only for the reconstruction of arsenals, dockyards and all the general naval outfit which has been damaged by the earthquake. No case has been made out of any sort or description from the national point of view, but I cannot help thinking that when the Government came into power, and were confronted with the Navy Estimates and with the expert advice of the Admiralty, some reason must have been put forward by the Admiralty for the construction of these cruisers which has not been disclosed to this House. I should be very grateful personally, and I am sure the whole House would be, if the Civil Lord would give us some explanation as to what this national need is. I would put to him a definite question, which I hope he will answer. I ask, does the Government consider that the immediate construction of these cruisers is indispensable to the safety of the Empire? I think that that is a perfectly fair question, which, if there is an argument on this ground, can be answered without any difficulty, and we need think no further of the rather flimsy excuse on the ground of unemployment which has been put forward by the Government.
Flimsy?
Certainly. The idea that unnecessary armaments should be constructed in order to give employment is a doctrine which, I am sure, no Member of the Labour party holds. If they vote for these cruisers—I hope they will not vote on this occasion—they will do so because they have been told what this House has not been told, namely, that there is an additional national necessity. There is one other aspect of this question with which I should like to deal. The Prime Minister's speech just now was very much appreciated, both by my hon. Friend the Member for East Norfolk and by myself, because during it he preached our cause most enthusiastically. Every one of his arguments about Singapore applies with equal force and vigour to these cruisers. In the course of his speech he made a reference to public opinion abroad, and he said that the announcement of the construction of these five cruisers had caused him less anxiety than the naval manœuvres in the Mediterranean. That may or may not be so, but during the last fortnight or three weeks I have collected an immense bundle of foreign criticisms on this question. I do not propose to quote them all to the House, but I do propose to quote passages from two of them, and, let me say in parenthesis, they are not quotations from newspapers such as those which were described by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill) when he moved the Adjournment on a previous occasion; they are not the ravings of the Nationalist Press, nor are they the bitter comments of our old friend Pertinax. They are the comments of probably the two most judicious and respected newspapers in France. The first is from the "Temps," which is intimately associated with the Foreign Office, and which may be said on many occasions, and especially in foreign affairs, to represent the views of the Government. The "Temps" says:
"The activity of the British Admiralty is not as shown by the Mediterranean manœuvres alone. It appears also in their programme of naval construction. Does the British Government foresee that the dockyards will be threatened with unemployment for many years and that the State will have to continue to help them by ordering ships from them?"
That is what opinion in France thinks of this programme. They foresee a constant argument that unemployment must be helped by fresh building and ever fresh building of ships, and they see no end to this doctrine once it is introduced into the financial provisions of this country. The other comment is from the "Debats," which anyone who knows France will agree is probably the soberest paper in France, and, indeed, one of the dullest and soberest in the world. It says—and with the permission of the House I will translate as I go along—that:
"The English Labour Minister gives us an example. Why are we waiting to vote the second part of our naval programme, which includes the laying down, not immediately, but by degrees, of six cruisers? We have all the more need of them since we do not possess, like England, 60 cruisers"—
they have the figures a little exaggerated—
"but only four, and some of those are ex-German ones which are obsolete?"
That is only a sample of the mass, a great deal of it more fervid and more anti-British, of the criticism which has been printed in the French Press during the past fortnight. When the Prime Minister said this question had caused him no anxiety, I can well understand that in his capacity of Foreign Minister it may not have done so, because I make no doubt no protest has been raised, and no questions have been asked of him by foreign Powers on this question; but in his capacity as Prime Minister and as head of the Government, he would be lacking in the most elementary caution if he did not take note of the spirit of competition which this programme of ours has aroused in foreign countries. It is exactly the same in Italy. Here, for example, is an Italian paper, the "Massagero," which has carried on during several weeks an animated discussion with the "Manchester Guardian" on the question of armaments, and naval armaments in particular. Here is what the "Messagero" finally said:
"Whilst the Naval Disarmament Conference is gathering at Rome, Mr. Mac-Donald's Government reinforces the Mediterranean Fleet. Mr. MacDonald is the faithful executor of Mr. Baldwin's programme. Our recent estimate of Mr. MacDonald's policy is absolutely corroborated."
Signor Mussolini, whom some hon. Members opposite take, I rather gather, as their model of a leader, has in the last few days spoken as follows:
"The Government will shortly start a new naval policy in a practical way. It will be essentially a peaceful policy, but not a pacifist one. The decisions which will be taken will be the result of a long and careful consideration of all the factors, including finance. The new policy will mean the employment of quite a large number of unemployed shipyard workers, and will follow the example set by Mr. MacDonald."
If that kind of interpretation of our action and motives is held to have no effect on foreign policy, I cannot understand what the foreign policy of the Labour Government is. Is it to take no notice whatever of Press criticism of this sort, which, as hon. Members know or should know very well, is a very different thing abroad from what it is in this country. Foreign observers know quite well that if the "Daily Herald" comments upon or demands some new policy to-morrow, it does not necessariliy follow that any single member of the Labour Government will take the slightest notice of the recommendation. Abroad it is a very different thing. Many of these newspapers are directly inspired by the Government, and other newspapers again, in their turn, have the very greatest power over individual members of foreign Governments. The policy of cruiser building, which has created all this disturbance in the foreign press, cannot be without the most deleterious reaction on the naval programmes of foreign countries. I think we shall see in the very near future the result of our own building programme in enhanced and accelerated building programmes' both in Italy and in France. I have not had the good fortune to get hold of any Japanese papers, partly through my own idleness but partly because of our long distance away, but I make no doubt whatever that this policy of replacement is being commented on in Japan in exactly the same way as in France and Italy. If the construction of these unnecessary armaments for the relief of unemployment marks a new era in British statesmanship it is an entirely novel thing. It makes a new departure which is difficult and almost impossible to defend on grounds of national necessity—a policy which has not been defended at all adequately on those grounds. I say quite frankly to the Government that, unless they can produce in the course of this Debate new and overwhelmingly powerful arguments on national grounds in favour of the construction of these new ships, not only will one of the parties in this House be overwhelmingly against them, but when the full facts are known not only the judgment but I think the conscience of the country will be against them as well.
I only want to ask one question of the Civil Lord in connection with unemployment and the construction of these cruisers. I want to ask if he will tell us as to the position of employment in the dockyards, how many men are being discharged in the various dockyards at present and how many will be discharged on 1st April, and why, in view of the construction of these cruisers, these discharges are necessitated at the moment, bearing in mind that the men who are so discharged will only be put on the dole. I shall be very grateful if the hon. Gentleman will give some answer.
May I beg from the House that indulgence which is always accorded to a Member who addresses it for the first time. I should not at this time intrude my voice on the deliberations of the House if it were not that this question, which has been raised by hon. Members opposite, very nearly affects my constituents who sent me to Parliament. My natural modesty is not proof against the claims of my constituents to consideration in this matter I was much struck by the observations of the hon. Member for Willesden (Mr. Johnstone) that this kind of expenditure on armaments, expenditure by way of expediting the construction of armaments, was unprecedented, and that it was unprecedented to construct armaments perhaps a little in advance of the ordinary programme for the sake of relieving unemployment. Let me tell the hon. Member that the unemployment is unprecedented. Never has there been such unemployment amongst the artisan population as there is to-day. In Sheffield alone there are over 17,000 men, very many of them skilled craftsmen, men of the highest degree of efficiency in their trade, who have been out of work for more than four years. The Prime Minister during the week-end addressed a meeting in Cardiff. I am sorry I cannot give the exact quotation as I have lost it and have been unable to find it again but he said something to this effect, that it was essential from the national point of view to keep up the skill of your people in the skilled trades. If that is a national need then the need will be served by keeping in employment a considerable number of men, engineers and others, who are skilled in the making of those things that appertain to ships of war. There is no doubt at all that the laying down of these five cruisers will give employment at any rate to 4,000 skilled men in Sheffield—that is direct employment to men for whom it is important in the national interest that their skill should not be allowed to fall into decay. It is important not only in the general national interest but it is supremely important in the interest of the Navy, because it is quite certain to many of us that naval needs will have to be met and ships will have to be built, and how are you going to build the ships, how are you going to construct the guns and how are you going to manufacture the gun mountings unless you have an adequate supply of skilled men who can perform those various and necessary operations? "When I heard the hon. Member for Willesden say he was making no attack on the Government and then I heard the epithets that he applied to them, I could not help thinking I should like to be here some night when he did attack them.
I would ask the Government not merely to stand to their guns in this matter of the five cruisers, but to ask their consideration for something even more than that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to hear those cheers from the benches opposite. In the course of laying down a programme to relieve, not to cure unemployment—do not make any mistake about it; no one pretends that this will cure unemployment—the late Government adumbrated a plan for the laying down of eight cruisers. I think it is a little singular, and I should like to have an explanation of it from the Civil Lord, why that part of the late Government's plan for assisting unemployment, and that part alone has been cut down by the Government. In the matter of roads, the late Government's plans have not been cut down; indeed, I think they have been slightly extended. In various plans for works of public utility for the relief of unemployment the proposals of the late Government have been followed, but in this matter alone of the eight cruisers the late Government's plans for assisting the unemployed have been cut down. I should like the Civil Lord to explain why they have selected this particular policy of the late Government to be cut down. Have they considered the effect of it? The cutting down of the programme by three cruisers will make an enormous difference to the dockyards, and it will make a great difference to Sheffield. If instead of five cruisers we laid down the eight cruisers, and supposing that Sheffield got its usual fair share of the work, it would mean the employment in Sheffield not of 4,000 men but 5,500 men.
Not only for the sake of Sheffield— though God knows Sheffield wants a little relief—not only for the sake of the men themselves, but for the sake of the Admiralty and the country, we should keep up the skill of these men who have been unemployed for four years. It is most important that these 1,500 extra men should be employed, whatever hon. Members of the Manchester school may think, and whatever members of the peace-at-any-price school may think. I am not prepared to back the peace-at-any-price school at the price of leaving these skilled men, who can at a time of need make these necesary things for our defence, to fall into decay and their craft to perish. I appeal to the Government to give us eight cruisers instead of five. This extraordinary Motion to stop the building of the five cruisers will meet with the inevitable fate of all Motions that come from that part of the House. May I bring to the memory of the House something that was said by the Prime Minister during the Debate on Thursday, 21st February. He said:
I would ask the Government to take to heart this further lesson that pacifism is not a thing with which any Government should have truck. Pacifism and disarmament, they will find if they think about it, are only possible if they are universal and simultaneous, and there is not the slightest prospect of universality or simultaniety in disarmament at the present time. Let them take their courage in their hands; let them take the advice of the experts in the Admiralty, who, I am sure, will give them the best of advice; let them offer a stout resistance to the obstructive tactics of the Treasury, let them turn a deaf ear to the pacifist, whether friend or foe, and let them insist on eight cruisers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not eighty?"] I will not be tempted by anybody beyond the bounds of moderation. If the Government do what I suggest, they will receive the support of hon. Members on this side of the House. [ Laughter. ] Yes, and why should they object to receiving the support of the largest party in the House? I am speaking in all seriousness, because this is a very serious matter for Sheffield. If ever a city put up a gallant struggle against unemployment, if ever a city—the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. C. H. Wilson) will bear me out in this—tried to keep a cheerful face in the midst of discouraging circumstances, that city is Sheffield. By not only sticking to your programme of five cruisers but by adding three more cruisers, you will send a message of hope to the fine fellows in the City of Sheffield who have been bearing up, and who have been haunted by the twin spectres of want and unemployment. I beg the Government to listen to my appeal and to do their very best to take this matter very seriously into their consideration.
I take part in this Debate solely in the hope of being able to elucidate one or two facts which may be of assistance to the House in making up its mind on this question. I associate myself most fully with all that has been said as to the wrongness of basing the construction of these cruisers on the question of unemployment. There cannot possibly be a more dangerous or more vicious theory in defence matters than to make any question of defence a question involved in the state of unemployment prevailing in the country at the time. It is a wrong theory from every point of view, and it is bound up with another mistake in endeavouring to base a programme of construction upon what is known as replacement. Replacement is a thoroughly unsound word to use in these matters. I believe the theory of replacement to have been the invention of an ingenious man, the late Lord Fisher, who used it as a cloak to cover a multitude of additions and not of replacements at all.
I also think it dangerous to use the word "acceleration" in regard to this proposed construction. The only safe thing to do as regards construction is to put it off to the last possible moment and to build as late as you possibly can, so as to get the longest start in what you are building. If you accelerate your construction you are only accelerating the date on which those ships become out of date. It is for these reasons that I trust some one on the Treasury Bench will make matters perfectly clear and give an assurance which will help many Members of this House in coming to a decision on this matter.
8.0 P.M.
I hope they will assure us that the Government are basing their programme of construction solely and wholly upon the immediate necessities of Imperial defence. That I believe to be the only right formula to use in these matters and I hope we shall get an assurance on this point from the Prime Minister or his representative. Now I will turn from this question to figures. In regard to figures there is only one right thing for the House to do. We must not look so much to the present, but project ourselves into the future. We have to realise that the centre of gravity has now completely shifted from the North Sea to the Pacific Ocean. The German Fleet has gone; the German Ocean has been shown to have been very badly named. I only hope the Pacific Ocean will not in a similar way belie its name. Bearing in mind that the centre of gravity has changed, we must look to the year 1929, which I believe to be the crucial year in this Debate. It is important to begin with, because it is two years before the date when the decisions of the Washington Conference will come up for revision. It is important because it is the date of the completion of the present Japanese programme. It also is important because it marks the end of the life of a cruiser, 15 years from the year 1914. For all those reasons, I ask the House to consider the year 1929. In saying that the centre of gravity has shifted to the Pacific Ocean, one is forced to consider the question of Japan. I believe that it is perfectly pos- sible to discuss this question in detail without giving offence to other countries. I believe the friends of other countries in this House are often far more touchy than those countries are themselves.
We must recognise the fact that there may foe points of policy upon which our Dominion policy may be at variance with the Japanese policy in the Pacific. That cannot be ignored in regard to Japan. What is the position we have been put into by the Washington Conference? The Washington Conference put us right as regards America when it decided to limit the capital ships. In regard to Japan, the decisions of the Washington Conference did something which, to my mind, is rather analogous to what Lord Fisher did when he built the "Dreadnought" One effect of building the "Dreadnought." was that at last we gave Germany an opportunity to catch us up in construction, because the "Dreadnought" abolished our vast pre-"Dreadnought" superiority. In a similar way, the Washington Conference, in regard to Japan, has abolished our vast margin of superiority and introduced competition in cruisers up to 10,000 tons with eight-inch guns. What will be the position in 1929 in regard to these cruisers? The only thing I have to consider to-night— although I think the submarine question in regard to Japan is full of significance and interest—is that, supposing we do not build the five cruisers the Government is proposing, in 1929 the position will be that Japan will have 25 cruisers and we shall have 28. If the five cruisers are built, Japan will have 25 and we shall have 33. Let us consider the position if they are not built. We have to remember that, out of the 25 Japan will possess, I think I am right in saying eight of them will have eight-inch guns. As against that we will have nothing better than 7·5-inch guns, as in the "Hawkins," the "Frobisher," the "Vindictive" and the "Effingham." Eight of the ships out of the Japanese total will be immeasurably superior to anything we possess. If we build the five cruisers, so that we have 33 and Japan 25, that is a superiority of eight ships, but remember that only five of our ships will be eight-inch gun ships and eight of the Japanese will still be eight-inch gun ships. These are the figures which, I think, are really significant, and these are the only figures which I believe are worth considering.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman considered the fact in the returns for 1929, allowance will be made for the building programmes of other countries in periods of five or eight or 10 years?
It is quite impossible for me to cover the whole ground in this speech. Other aspects of the question will be dealt with by other speakers. I am confining myself specifically to the case of the Japanese programme in the year 1929 as affecting the Pacific Ocean. I would remind the House that, in regard to cruisers, we are compelled to keep as many with our main Fleet as the enemy decides to keep with his main fleet. I cannot subscribe to the argument that flotilla leaders could be used to relieve cruisers with in fleet action. I do not know what the future may hold in store for me, but I earnestly trust it does not mean that I will find myself doing duty in a flotilla leader which is relieving cruisers in fleet action. Bearing in mind that we are compelled to retain with our main fleet the same number of cruisers as the enemy has with his main fleet, I think it will be seen, from the figures quoted, how small a margin of cruisers we are keeping to protect our 80,000 miles of trade routes. It is an unanswerable fact that the security of our trade routes depends wholly and solely upon the cruisers operating along those routes. Mention has been made to-night by a previous speaker of the case of the "Emden." I make no apology for reminding the House that the exploits of that one ship, operating in face of all our naval resources, resulted in her making prizes of vessels of the value of £2,200,000. I ask the House to remember, in view of that fact, what a very small margin we are leaving for the guarding of the trade routes. Our trade is possible because the Navy polices these routes. I think there is very often a tendency to think of piracy and pirates being simply a kind of boys' game, but piracy and pirates remain in abeyance because of the policing of the trade routes carried on by the Navy. It would soon spring into life again if that protection were withdrawn. Bad though the rum-running may now be in America, what prospect would the United States of America have of keeping it within its present limits but for the operations of the American Navy?
I heard the question asked to-night and last night, who are you expecting a war with? When I heard that question put it sounded to me like an echo from many of the speeches on the Naval Estimates which I read between 1906 and 1914. My answer is that we are at the present moment faced with building programmes. This construction, which the Government is proposing, is not a pebble which is to be thrown into a quiet pool and which will start the ripples. At the present moment, we are actually faced with building programmes. If the question is asked who the next war is to be fought with, the answer is very simple. Let your defences go down-hill, do not build, do not keep your defence up to the standard, and you will very soon discover who the next war is going to be with. We have to live in the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. While I heartily endorse a peaceful policy, of which I consider we have given a good earnest in the Washington Conference; while I wish to see maintained, as I know they will be maintained in every way, our traditions as a non-aggressive sea power, and while I believe in encouraging in every possible way the work done on behalf of peace and disarmament in Geneva, we must face the fact that war may come, and it will come all the more quickly and you will soon know with whom the war is going to be if you once let your Imperial defences in any respect go down.
There is one thing which has appeared in this Debate. You have now as head of the Government a definite pacifist as Prime Minister. As I understand his policy, it is that the shadow of the Admiralty, the Air Ministry and the War Office is no longer looming behind the Foreign Office. I think that I remember seeing on German cannon a motto which said that they were the last argument of kings. I understand the Prime Minister to have reversed that argument completely, and to declare that his foreign policy is no longer to be considered as a menace of the military departments. It is an interesting experiment, and if it has to be tried the present is a good time in which to try it. I would like to ask whether the Dominions definitely endorsed that new theory of policy? Assuming that what I say is correct that we have a definite pacifist as Prime Minister, it is interesting to notice that he has had to yield to the pressure of stern facts in certain respects.
The heart of the Empire, we have been told, is threatened by the developments of French aircraft, and at once the whole House agreed to additions to our own Air Force calculated in a large measure to give us protection against that menace. That is a menace to what is called the heart of the Empire. I think myself that it is very difficult to say where the heart of the Empire really is, but certainly if the heart of the Empire is menaced in that way the stomach of the Empire may also be menaced if we have not an adequate programme of naval construction, for the trade that those cruisers are to protect is the stomach of the Empire. The Prime Minister, yielding to the force of facts, comes to the House and says that the Government have decided to build these five cruisers. As I understand, he is a definitely pacifist Prime Minister with pacifists in the Cabinet, who comes to the House and asks for sanction to that programme of construction. Who is to rival the Prime Minister in pacifism? Who is to take up the attitude that "Codlin is your friend and not Short," and that the real pacifist is not the Prime Minister, but that he can be outdone in pacifism: by some Codlin?
On this question of foreign opinion as represented in the foreign Press, I must confess that I am not much afraid of foreign opinion as manifested in the foreign Press. I believe that those newspapers are very often extremely fallacious in the impression which they give of the state of foreign opinion. Not so long ago the Prime Minister of Italy announced his intention effectively to increase the efficiency of the Italian Navy. I myself have not found that that declaration of his has caused any very strong wave of public opinion in this country, and I do not believe that this proposal to build five cruisers will have the serious effect on public opinion in foreign countries which is represented in the foreign Press. I think that in a great many foreign countries they are far more realists than we. They quite understand our need, and, whatever may appear in our Press, I think that the official heads of Departments will not be alarmed by this proposal. Certainly in the case of Italy it may very well be borne in mind that if the difficulties which exist between Italy and ourselves in the matter of Jubaland were removed I think that we should have very little more in the Italian Press about our proposals to build five new cruisers.
At any rate whatever the effect on foreign opinion may be there may perhaps be something to be said for leaving that in the hands of the Government, especially after the declaration of their policy which we had to-night, when we have heard that the position with regard to the Singapore base was so largely founded upon a wish to conciliate foreign opinion. There are very delicate negotiations in progress at present, especially with regard to the Ruhr. I cannot imagine that the Government would be likely to prejudice those negotiations by deciding to build five cruisers, if it were seriously considered that that decision would prejudice these negotiations. I earnestly believe that the figures which I have quoted for 1929, in regard to Japan and ourselves, show that there is not any new race in armaments being started, so far as we are concerned. Those figures are a sufficient answer to any suggestion that, by building these five cruisers we are starting another race in armaments. I think also that the conduct of this country in regard to the Washington Conference, and the naval decisions, are amply sufficient guarantee that we are not likely to embark on any race in armaments again. I am sure that the general opinion will be that when we build we build for our own legitimate needs. We have never built for definitely aggressive purposes. We have built for purposes of defence, and I think that we may safely leave it to foreign opinion to come round to that point of view. Whatever the views of hon. Members on other matters may be they will all agree that it is something of an ordeal for a Member to address this House for the first time, and I wish to say how very grateful I am to the House for the kindness with which it has listened to me on the present occasion.
Before I enter into the subject matter of this Debate, as a brother naval officer I wish to offer my most sincere congratulations to the hon. and gallant Member who has just addressed the House for the first time. I am certain that we shall all look forward to subsequent occasions when he takes part in our Debates, and if the speeches are on the same high level as that to which we listened to-night we shall all look forward to them with added interest. In reference to the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for North East Norfolk (Mr. H. Seely) and seconded by the hon. Member for 'East Willesden (Mr. Harcourt Johnstone) it is interesting to notice that the naval needs of the Empire come second in the opinion of these hon. Members. It seems to me that there is a ring of pre-War days in this Debate. I seem to have heard or read some of these arguments now used which were urged by the same group of hon. Members opposite before 1914. The seconder of the Amendment claimed that the Liberal party were consistent in their policy. I quite agree. It seems to me that the only definite line of policy which the Liberal party has managed on this matter to evolve is a "little Navy" policy. I make them a present of it, and I hope that it will do them good on the platform, though I cannot believe that it will, because I do not believe that the country favours the lines which were followed in the speech made last night by the hon. and learned Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle). It is true that he was talking about the Army. He said: Liberal party still further to hamper the Navy in providing for the safety of the country and its trade routes in emergency. I pass for a moment from the Amendment to the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty. The First Lord almost apologies for the building programme, and then states that the ships are in replacement of the County class. The County class consisted of 16 ships, ten of the Kent class and six of the Hampshire class. If we are to start replacing the County class we have to lay down at least II more cruisers in order to do it. Existing ships are, of course, wearing out. In answer to a question the other day the Admiralty stated that in 10 years' time 43 of our existing 48 cruisers would be worn out. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) put a question relating to the City class of light cruisers. Ten of them are already over 15 years of age. They are slow-running ships, doing only 24 knots, and they are doing well when they reach that speed. Those ships have to be replaced. That makes 26 ships which have to be replaced. I ask the Admiralty, what the definite standard of strength is to be? We have heard nothing about that. Up to now the policy of the country has been the accepted policy laid down at Washington, namely, that of a one-Power standard. Is it the intention of the Admiralty to maintain a one-Power standard in the future? It is absolutely essential that not only we but the whole Empire should know. While we and hon. Members opposite may differ in small matters, as to whether we should lay down five or eight ships, or none at all, we must all remember the larger question of the Empire, and this question is a question for the Empire.
Many hon. Members opposite do not seem to understand what are the functions of a cruiser. In naval warfare the cruiser and the light cruiser perform practically every function of naval warfare with the exception of that discharged by the battle-fleet itself. The light cruiser is responsible for commerce protection, for commerce destruction, for seeking out the ships of the enemy, for denying the enemy forces passage across the ocean, and also for ensuring the safe passage of our own forces. The cruisers have also to safeguard 80,000 miles of trade routes, and no fewer than 1,000 ships which are to be found on those routes at any moment. The light cruisers are required to work with the fleet, either as anti-destroyer ships or as repeating ships for signals for the heavier ships. Their functions are many and varied. We can easily see the extraordinary demands which are made in war upon our cruiser forces. Cruisers for our fleet must have three essentials. They must have speed, they must have a strong armament, and they must have a very wide radius of action. You can secure all these qualities in one ship only on a large displacement, certainly not less than 10,000 tons. Armament is regulated by the Washington Treaty. It is the 8-inch gun. Speed is an all-important factor. I will give to the House some figures with regard to the speed of our light cruisers. I put a question to the Admiralty recently as to the speeds of our light cruisers and of foreign light cruisers. This is the answer I got: British Empire ships of the Empire class, 33 knots; Hawkins class, 30 to 30·5 knots.
United States, Omaha class, 33 knots. As a matter of fact most of them are doing about 35 knots on trial.
Japan, 10,000-ton ships, speed not definitely known, but believed to be 32 knots; Kuma class, 33 knots; Yubari, 33 knots.
France, Duguay-Trouin, 34 knots.
The Italian ships are not mentioned, but I have particulars here, and the ships are built for about 33 knots. It is of no use to put our ships on the trade routes if they are not able to catch the ships of the enemy. There is one peculiarity about our existing cruisers. We have been told that we have 48 cruisers. But 75 per cent. of those ships were designed and built during the War. They were designed for North Sea work and not for ocean work. They are ships of inferior speed; their best is about 29 knots. Their armament is almost entirely of six-inch guns, and the ships are of small size. The result is that they are of inferior radius of action and lose their speed quickly in a heavy seaway. Some of them are very wet ships, and it is very difficult to fight their forward guns in a heavy sea. Last, but by no means least, the accommodation provided for officers and men is extremely bad. If hon. Members opposite wonder to what ships I allude, I will tell them that I refer to all ships found in the Navy List to-day, with the exception of the "Hawkins" class and the two "Emeralds."
There is another point of which sight should not be lost. Since the War foreign Powers have built no fewer than 46 light cruisers to our one. Those figures speak for themselves, and I commend them to-the Socialist party. They do not disclose any particular desire for militarism on our part. There is another factor that comes into play. All the signatories to the Washington Conference are now hard at work remodelling their fleets within the provisions of the Washington Treaty. They are doing everything possible to bring their fleets up to date, and it is quite certain that these foreign ships will be used to the utmost extent. I put a question to the Admiralty recently asking which of the foreign light cruisers were suitable for commerce protection and destruction and which of ours were similarly intended. The answer was that all the foreign ships were useful for commerce protection and destruction but only 20 of ours were. With regard to the comparative figures for cruisers, a White Paper has just been published from which it will be seen that at the present moment we have only the "Hawkins" and the "Vindictive" completed—and the "Vindictive" is not really completed but is being reconstructed—while we are having completed the "Effingham" the "Fro-bisher" the "Emerald" and the "Enterprise." All the other light cruisers are what are called fleet cruisers, chiefly suitable for fleet work and not to be used for long distance work on long sea routes across the Indian Ocean and the Pacific.
They are going round the world now.
Is it not obvious that they are only proceeding on a very slow speed and making frequent stops, with ample opportunities of refilling? The hon. and gallant Gentleman is a naval officer and he knows well that during war you do not get the same opportunities for refilling as you do on an ordinary joy cruise, such as is going on now. With regard to the foreign countries, I take their light cruisers and eliminate the ships that are no good. If we test the American figures in this way, eliminating all those ships which are only suitable for fleet work, we find the only ships the Americans have got of any real value for the purposes of this discussion are the ten ships of the "Omaha" class.
There are only seven complete.
The "Omaha," the "Milwaukee," the "Cincinnati," the "Raleigh," the "Detroit," the "Richmond," and the "Concord" are completed, while the "Trenton," the "Marblehead," and the "Memphis" are under construction. It will be found that all the Japanese light cruisers, with the possible exception of the "Yubari," are suitable for ocean-going commerce protection or destruction work. There are no ships in the Japanese list which I would desire to eliminate as only suitable for fleet work. Taking the French figures, I eliminate all the French ships with the exception of the three which are now building, and with regard to the Italians I also eliminate all ships with the exception of those which are now building. I do so because I wish to arrive at a fair basis of comparison between ourselves and foreign countries. I include in the Japanese ships the 14 vessels of the "Kuma" class completed and six of the "Furutaka" class, which are building, plus six more projected. That will give an idea to the House of what this means. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member, who spoke last, that the year 1929 is obviously the critical year, and that is the year to be considered. I ask hon. Members opposite to consider the speed table, which I got out of the Admiralty in answer to questions, and which, I think, is of the utmost importance, because it is no use putting small, slow ships on the trade routes and telling them they have to catch raiders in the same way as the "Emden" was caught. With regard to the new Italian ships, I wish to show what extraordinarily powerful ships the new class of light cruisers are. Their displacement is 10,000 tons, they have a main battery of ten 8·7 guns, and compared with what was regarded as a very powerful type of cruiser before the War, they are of exceedingly powerful design. They are being built for a speed of 34½ knots, and their guns are designed to fight at long range, and to carry a certain amount of armour to give protection to the gunners. They have two aeroplanes each, and have a broadside power of not less than 2,700 lbs., if all the guns are discharged. The same figure in the British ships is only 1,200 lbs.
Have these ships been authorised yet by the Italian Government?
They are the ships alluded to in the White Paper as now being built.
No. The White Paper refers only to two projected ships.
I am indicating the design of these two ships and pointing out that the figure of broadside power for English ships is only 1,200 lbs. That will give hon. Members an idea of the class of ships which is being built as compared with ours.
The Noble Lord must not mislead the House. He is an experienced seaman, and he must notice in the White Paper, on page 17, the number of cruisers building by Italy is given as nil, and on page 25 the number of light cruisers building by Italy is given as nil, but it is indicated that two are projected. I do not think it quite fair to quote the figures as the Noble Lord has quoted them.
If the hon. and gallant Member will consult the White Paper and look at the nominal table of light cruisers on page 18, he will see a column devoted to Italy, and at the bottom of the part devoted to "Ships building" reference to two ships.
They have not been laid down yet.
I have reason to believe they are either laid down or are being laid down. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friends will say that I am trying to mislead the House if I say that these ships are going to be laid down. I think they will concede that point. We have to look ahead in these matters, and we have to remember that if these ships materialise, as there is reason to suppose they will, the Prime Minister of Italy has made it clear that Italy definitely intends to proceed. I only quote the figures in order to show what extremely powerful ships these are.
Could not we adhere to the words of the White Paper and describe them as "projected" ships?
I will describe them as projected ships if you like. I am not concerned on that point, which is only a debating point and of minor importance. I am concerned to show the extraordinary power of these ships as against the existing ships in our service, and to show the need for the five extra ships which the Admiralty now propose. I have here a paper called the "Outlook," for 1st March, 1924, in which I find a very able and excellent article by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley), in which he writes:
"It is quite clear if we build cruisers, Prance will build the same number, if not more. It is extremely probable Japan will do her best to outbuild us, but as soon as the new pocket Dreadnoughts are launched the whole naval situation will be altered, and all pre-1924 light cruisers will fall away to the same relative unimportance as the pre-Dreadnought battleships fell to in 1906. We may find ourselves with fewer of the super light cruisers than other naval Powers. Then, indeed, the question of naval safety may arise in earnest."
Nobody could sum up the situation better than that, and that is the whole case of the Government for laying down these five light cruisers.
Not for starting the competition; that is the whole point.
I do not think the hon. and gallant Member can really bear out his suggestion that we are starting a competition. We are going into this race a bad last. We shall not finish last, but we are going in a little bit astern of all that the other nations have actually done and got completed. I have given the definite figures for the American new light cruisers of the "Omaha" class, of which she has seven, and we have nothing to put against them, except the four "Hawkins" and the two "Emeralds," and they are not quite as powerful ships. I have shown that the Japanese programme is a very considerable one, and I say that no case can be made out that we are starting a competition. I was astonished to find that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham was one of the signatories of a still more extraordinary manifesto, which was published by certain Members of the Liberal party on 27th February. This manifesto first of all started by professing its extreme astonishment that the Government should be taking steps to ensure what is, after all, the poor man's breakfast table, and it went on to lay down what it stated were facts; but what was still more amusing to me was that in dealing with the light cruisers they counted heads only.
I would appeal to hon. and right hon. Members opposite. Are they all to be considered of exactly the same calibre? Do not some of them differ in power and experience? I submit that if you count heads only, it is a most fallacious standard, and only misleads. The manifesto dwells on the size and power of the light cruisers, but contains no reference whatever to what the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham very rightly calls the "pocket Dreadnoughts." It goes on in, as I think, the language of extreme exaggeration, to say that it is uneconomical, disastrous, mischievous, and very dangerous to spend £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 of money, which might provide work for about 18,000 workers, and it also says, in effect, that the protection of our trade and food supplies is morally wrong. I submit to the hon. Members who signed that manifesto that they should take to heart the words which were subsequently written by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham on the subject of "pocket Dreadnoughts."
I thought I was promised a beating by the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) this afternoon, who was very angry with me because I suggested that, prior to 1914, the Navy was not exactly prepared for war. Nor was it. Hon and gallant Members opposite who served in the Navy know that what I say is true, and that when we went into the War we went in with exactly 30 mines, and that we had no sort of boom defences nor any defences for the Fleet; and if we do not lay down these light cruisers now, we shall equally be unprepared for another war, should one unhappily come about. If the Liberal Little Navyites before the War had succeeded in their idea of cutting down the Navy, I think the result of the War might have been completely different, and that starvation, conquest, and invasion might easily have been our lot instead of what actually did happen. These ships, I submit, are merely an insurance scheme, and if you criticise it, you criticise it with no regard to the risk of a fire or the value of the insurance. You are gambling, in fact, and you are asking the country to gamble on the maintenance of peace, with the whole security of the country as the stake. I think that is a risk which is altogether unjustifiable for the country, and one which it will not take.
I appeal to the House not to forget the lessons of the late War and how many ships it took to catch the "Emden," and the "Karlsruhe," and the "Moewe" as well. Hon. Members opposite should study those figures, because they speak for themselves. In another war, remember, the ships will not necessarily come from Japan, as has been rightly said. In another war in which we may be engaged you might have a raider breaking through from the other side of the world, as they did from Germany in the last war, because you will not be able to detach ships to catch them, and they might altogether isolate this country, and bring us to our knees simply by means of starvation, which the German submarines very nearly accomplished in the late War. I would ask hon. Members, before voting for this Motion, to think over these things, and if they will only think over them with a fairly open mind, I hope they will agree that they have not quite made out their case, as expressed in the terms of this Amendment.
I desire to speak in favour of the Amendment and against the building of any cruisers whatever. They may be termed replacements or anything you like, but I am against every form of armament, whether naval, military, or in the air. I have been a student or reader of political affairs for a long time, and I remember that this question of the reduction of armaments has been in the air for more than 40 years of my lifetime, yet we seem to be as far distant from it to-day as we were in those far-off days of last century. When the Washington Conference was held, great hopes were aroused in the breasts of many working people that at last something tangible and practical was going to be done in the nature of stopping the mad race of naval armaments, but from the talk all round the House to-day, and from the atmosphere that has been displayed since this Parliament resumed, there seems to be no possibility of the old ideals of John Bright being accepted by the ordinary powerful politicians on any of the Front Benches of this House. I stand where John Bright stood, when he took that memorable stand against the bombardment of Alexandria. I believe that force is no remedy, that force fails absolutely in every essential, and that force is contrary to the principles of the New Testament, which was repudiated by the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) in his observations last evening. [ Interruption. ] Our Air Minister may be forgiven for his innocent ignorance as a new Minister of State, and therefore not as qualified as is the hon. Member for Penistone in regard to the arrangements of this House. There have been 8,000 wars in 3,000 years.
Hear, hear.
The Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) is evidently anxious for some more, judging by the speed with which he wants to have cruisers built to develop our naval force still further. The very cheerfulness with which he gave us the figures for Italy, France, and other nations, showing how they are building cruisers, and asked us to go at a bigger speed than we are going, is evidence that he is anxious to prepare for, as he says, the next war, but we have always been preparing for war, both at sea and upon the land. That has been the policy of the Front Benches in the days gone by, and it seems to be the policy of the Front Benches to-day. I remember the old music hall song: and I am not going to scrap the New Testament. I am going to stand for the New Testament as against this policy of cruisers. An hon. Member asked whether we believe in the ideal embodied in the New Testament, that if a man smite you on one cheek you shall turn the other. That is the finest way to stop war and violence. The example of peace-fulness is the finest thing in this world of ours. If you continue the other policy, you continue the preparations for warfare so glibly talked about by the noble Lord. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle), in his concluding observations yesterday, said:
Yesterday an hon. Member, who, I think, is a Quaker, and represents a neighbouring borough of mine, tried to excuse himself, and may do so again to-day, on the ground that if we do not have the Army and Navy, there will be a large number of persons unemployed. It was his excuse as a Quaker on the question of a reduction. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I beg hon. Members' pardon. Let them look at the OFFICIAL REPORT, and they will find that one of his observations was as to what you would do with the 150,000 men displaced in connection with the Army. The same kind of observation would apply if the Navy were disbanded. There would be unemployed persons. I am old enough to have seen a large number of municipal and public employés dispossessed of their offices. Whenever they have been dispossessed of their offices by new laws, they have always been compensated. I refer to clerks to boards of guardians, urban district councils, and so on, in amalgamations. They have all been provided for on dispossession of office. The same ought to apply to the ranks of the Army and Navy, and it is cheaper to do that than to employ them in a useless system that means destruction in general. I am also a believer in the League of Nations without force. One of the blots upon the League of Nations' proposals concerns force, with which, I think, Lord Robert Cecil, as he then was, clothed it a few months ago. I want peace and to prepare for peace. All the talk to-day has been of preparation for war. Nobody has the right to take the life of a single individual, and I stand with Russell Lowell,
9.0 P.M.
We all respect the sincerity and consistency of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, and always listen with interest and some sympathy to the speeches that he makes on these subjects, but the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend is not moved quite from the same angle as the speeches made by the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Turner). This is not a Pacifist Amendment. It is not a propaganda Amendment. It is not a flag flaunted for the sake of making a demonstration. It is intended to be a definite constructive suggestion which can be carried out in terms by the Government, and will make for the peace of the world by mutual disarmament. That is the intention. Another preliminary remark I make is this: It is not an Amendment to embarrass the Government. It is not an Amendment hostile to the Government. The Government is perfectly free to-day to choose. I undertake to say that the Whips of the Government have not had one anxious moment about the Division to-night. The Government is free to choose which way it will decide. If it agrees to decide in the way of armaments, it can lead into the Lobby the whole of the Conservative party, the whole of the Dockyard Members, and it can lead its own followers, reluctantly, I believe, but at any rate, in sufficient numbers to secure a majority. On the other hand, if the Government say they will decide against armaments, they can lead many people who are natural allies, namely, hon. Members who sit above and below the Gangway on this side. So they have a free choice, and it is useless to go to the country afterwards, and say, "We had to do this, because we are a minority Government." They are not a minority Government, on this occasion What is the proposal? It is to spend £10,000,000 of capital, and lay upon this country annually a considerable charge for the upkeep of these ships. The money is to come from the taxpayers. It is to come out of industry. It is to come out of the taxpayers, and be laid on the poor. It has to be paid by the old age pensioners. These are facts which hon. Members have to explain if they are going to support the Government in the Lobby to-night. We say, if the Government can make a case for these ships, the taxes will have to be imposed, and the poor will have to pay them. Bat the Government must make a case, and, up to this moment, they have not made a case for the necessity of these ships. What is the test? With great deference to the naval experts who have spoken, I do not think we in this House are called upon to decide by these tables of weights and guns, and so on. We have a perfectly simple test. One of the few parts of the Treaty of Versailles that I admire is the Covenant of the League of Nations. We set our hand to that Covenant, in company with 32 other nations, and in the Covenant is laid down the test we must apply to-night in this naval programme. Article 8 of the Covenant says that the maintenance of the peace of the world— and that is alleged to be the argument of every speaker in the House—depends upon the reduction of our armaments "to the lowest point consistent with national safety." That is the only test. "The lowest point consistent with national safety" is our pledged word. The question we have to ask to-night is: Is this programme of the Government—these five ships—necessary in order to bring us up to the lowest point consistent with national safety? I want some evidence of this. Before this question of unemployment came up in May of last year, I think it was, the then First Lord of the Admiralty laid down the naval programme of the year. He was speaking for the Government, and he said that, while we were weaker— I can give the quotation if required, but I do not think he will question it—while we were weaker in destroyers we were stronger in cruisers. A few weeks afterwards the "Times," in referring to a catalogue of British ships which had been published, said:
On this question of the minimum for national safety, I am not a pacifist, if that means men who are prepared to lay down all their arms here and now. I pray that we may endeavour to arrange, and be successful in arranging, mutual and international disarmament. If we cannot, it will be a pitiable outlook for the world. But I want to see the minimum necessary for national safety. Does the hon. Gentleman, who is in charge of the Vote, tell us that the Committee of Imperial Defence, looking round, said: "Oh, our weak spot is light cruisers; we must build more light cruisers"; while, at the same time, they said: "We have got enough aeroplanes, we are safe in the air. It is light cruisers we want." Is that what they said? If there was any bottom at all in the contention of the hon. Gentleman that we are trying to keep up the minimum necessary for national safety, of course, it would be the Air on which we would be spending money, and where we would be in the ratio of 48 to 28, instead of having 30 to 40 squadrons to the three or four times the number probably held by the next strongest naval power. It is perfectly clear that the question of maintaining the minimum necessary to defend the country has never entered into the minds of the originators of this programme at all. It is a pure afterthought. The hon. Gentleman to-day was pleased to pretend that it was the one and only consideration. He is the only hon. Gentleman who has ever based it on those grounds. The late Prime Minister, when he made a speech to a deputation, specifically said: argument for defence. That is an argument to help unemployment. "If we had more money we would spend it." The question of defence does not come into it at all. Note the hon. Member's inconsistent position in reference to this argument to help unemployment. Nothing was said then of national defence.
It was referred to as subsidiary.
Unemployment was a subsidiary reason—is that what the hon. Gentleman says? What was in their minds from the beginning was national defence. Is that the case? The first time this was raised, on 21st February, as to the Government building ships, what did the hon. Gentleman say?
"The Government have decided in view of the serious unemployment to lay down five cruisers."
He then said that they were going to put out tenders so that they might proceed with the work as soon as the necessary Parliamentary sanction was given. Not a word here about national defence.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman might read a little further down in regard to the supplementary answers given. I there said it should be understood these vessels were largely replacements, not additions.
I think we can leave the hon. Gentleman to his own explanation, and to his supplementary explanation. I do not think he has assisted himself in the matter. This is the point and I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Department: Do I understand his argument to be that these are replacements, that they have got to be built in any case, and that it is more efficient to get some of them done now, especially in view of present unemployment? If so, that was the case put forward by the Conservative party. Is that the ease of the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty? I notice he does not answer. He has been ready enough up to now to reply. Of course he will not answer, and why? The reason is that because the case of the Conservative party was we must get on with these cruisers and get them built before 1931 because, said the right hon. Gentleman the then First Lord of the Admiralty, in 1931 the Washington Treaty expires and we shall be busy building capital ships. That was the reason. Is that the case now?
The agreement under the Treaty expires in 1931, and certain capital ships will in successive years have to be replaced. I also referred to the very great destroyer replacement programme that begins in 1926–7.
It is quite true, as my right hon. Friend says, that in 1931 they would, owing to the provision of the Treaty of Washington, be faced with heavy expenditure in connection with the replacement of capital ships unless further agreement can be got. If that is the only reason for hurrying on the cruisers, it does not fill the hearts of any of us with very much satisfaction. Does this proposal really help unemployment at all? That is the point? It certainly keeps certain men at their own job, and of course that is an argument which must appeal to all of us, but, taking a wider view, does this proposal really help unemployment? Where are you going to stop? Are you going to keep the dockyard personnel at this level, because if you do that, sooner or later you will have to face the problem of alternative work for these men. Is it beyond the imaginative powers of the Admiralty to devise some work which is really useful, such as engineering, the making of bridges, or the building of commercial ships? Will the Government say that they will consent to postpone the building of these cruisers for 18 months in order that they may think of something else in the way of useful work?
What will be the effect upon industry of spending £10,000,000 on what I consider is pure waste? Here we are, voting guarantees, loans and exports credits to oil the wheels of trade and stimulate commerce, and at the same time you are proposing to take £10,000,000 to spend on a purpose which, unless it can be proved that it is necessary for national defence—I contend that it has not been proved— is absolute waste. I believe that this proposal will put as many men out of work as it puts into employment.
Let us now come to the more serious international aspect of the situation. The Government have announced a League of Nations policy, and in that I am sure all my hon. Friends will heartily support them. The League of Nations at the present time is propounding to the countries of the world a pact of neutral guarantees, and it is proposing that they should all assess their own needs and give a guarantee amongst themselves to observe it. What is going to be the effect at this psychological moment of our policy on proposals of this kind? This is a very critical moment. It is true the Prime Minister says he has heard nothing about it, but the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. H. Johnstone) quoted a great many extracts from the newspaper?, one from an Italian newspaper, declaring that in order to create employment they were going to follow the example of the British Prime Minister. I will give two brief quotations to the same effect. I will first make a quotation from "Le Temps." This newspaper says:
We want to obtain some agreement which will permit us to retire from the competition in aerial armaments with France, but suppose we come to a state of things when that is possible and France says: "Our taxation has now been raised and unemployment is very bad, do you suggest that we should sack all the men engaged in our aerial service when we can keep them there at a very small charge? We have to consider the state of unemployment in France, and that demands that we should keep these men there, as they are doing no harm to anyone." It may well be asked, why do the Government do it? What is the explanation? They, surely, do not want to do it. What is the real explanation? I believe it is that they dare not stand up to the Board of Admiralty. We have been treated with contempt in this House by the Board of Admiralty. We had a Debate on 21st February and we went away with the impression that the matter was hung up and that until this Debate no decision would be taken. Three days later a notice appears to say that Portsmouth has been notified officially that they are to have one of the cruisers. What does the Admiralty care for the Government or for the House of Commons? The fact of the matter is that the Government are afraid to stand up to the Board; they are afraid the Admirals will resign. I would like to have a return made by the Prime Minister showing how many times the Board of Admiralty have threatened to resign during the last 20 years. Admirals who will sweep the foes from the face of the sea in time of war, spend their leisure in time of peace writing letters of resignation. [ Laughter. ] The curious thing is, if the hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway will permit me to make this observation without offence, that a Labour Government, sensitive to public opinion, is weaker than any other Government in standing up to the tyranny of the Board of Admiralty.
They say it must go through.
I suggest there is only one way to fortify the Government against the Board of Admiralty and that is to put them in the position to say, "It is useless asking us to do this, the House of Commons will not support it." That is the way to fortify Ministers in their policy. It is in the hands of hon. Members above the Gangway. They are the arbiters to-day as to whether or not this is to be done. Hon. Gentlemen might well say what would Liberals do?
Support the Government.
I am assuming that a Liberal Government is in office. I cannot prophesy about the future, but I call the past in evidence. In 1906 the Liberal Government came into power in circumstances—except for the figures in the House—similar to the present Government. They found the Cawdor programme in existence—four "Dreadnoughts" a year. The first thing Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman did was to cut out two of those ships in 1906. He stopped two of those ships and he threw over the Cawdor programme, which was one of the sacrosanct things in the eyes of the Opposition. He was denounced as a pacifist, a little Englander, a little Navyite and everything else. But was he justified? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] What happened? The two ships were not built. We went forward with our money in our pocket, with the goodwill of the world, and when the War came we had some ships that could fight instead of the Noah's Arks that the Cawdor programme would have brought us.
I venture to think that the country will attend to this Debate and will notice the actions of Members in this House tonight. The first Liberal Government, in days when there was danger, when there were dark clouds, when Europe was ringing to the marching and counter-marching of armed men, had the courage to make that moral gesture of disarmament. The first Labour Government, when the world is exhausted, tired and crying for peace, puts five new cruisers into the programme they present to the House of Commons. [An HON. MEMBER: "Accelerating!"] Well then, they are accelerating. They may appeal to the House and get their victory, but I do not feel they can appeal with confidence to the consciences of their own supporters or with confidence to the bar of public opinion, where men and women are clamouring for words of a great authority on foreign peace. In conclusion, let me quote the words of a great authority on foreign opinion, one whose name will command the respect of hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway, I mean Mr. H. G. Wells. I suppose there is no man whose opinion is more thought of or more studied in the world outside our own shores than that of Mr. H. G. Wells. Mr. Wells, writing on this subject, a day or two ago, from one of the countries that is affected, a Latin country, used the following words:
This being the first occasion on which I have had the honour of addressing this House, I feel quite sure that I shall have that indulgence which is accorded all Members and especially new Members. I have heard it often said from the Government Bench that Members on this side have enjoyed the privileges of education. It is because we appreciate that fact and also because we are aware of the responsibilities which are thrust on us by that education, that we find ourselves in the position of sitting in this House to-day. I would also like to pay a tribute to the Government Bench who are endowed to a very great extent with a gift of speech which must be very gratifying to them and very helpful to the House. With regard to the cruiser programme, as a layman I do not intend to be led away by politicians on one side of the House or the other. The safer course for a layman to adopt is to be guided in a great measure by those whose duty it is to lead us in this respect—I mean the Lords of the Admiralty. The decision in regard to the policy they recommend remains, of course, with ourselves. I feel that we have also to take into consideration the questions which we have learned in history and to be guided a great deal by the great disasters which have occurred to nations in times gone by and to remember that those disasters have occurred, not necessarily through the faults of Admirals or Generals, but have been due in a very great measure to the unpreparedness which has been caused by politicians in times of peace. I am well aware that, unless the security of the Empire depends on the building of either five or eight cruisers, those cruisers most certainly ought not to be built, but there are one or two points of which I should like to remind the House in that connection. The Prime Minister has said that he has approved of the construction of five cruisers for two reasons, the first being the need for replacement, and the second the necessity of finding work for those in the dockyards. I wish to confine myself this evening rather to the latter point.
I do not think that Members of this House can be aware of the great skill which is acquired by working men in making armour, munitions, and all other things which are necessary in the building of cruisers. That skill cannot be acquired in a month or a year, but is, in far greater measure than may be supposed, due to the hereditary skill which those men have acquired in more than one generation. If we take our minds back for a moment to the events which preceded the War, and remember that, only shortly after the War I had commenced, we found ourselves lamentably short of projectiles of almost every kind, we shall see that there is no doubt whatever that, if our Navy had been called into action at an early period of the War, it would have suffered the same difficulties which beset our land forces. I trust that the time will come when nations will review to a greater extent than at present the question of disarmament, but, in looking at the programmes of other countries, I cannot see that they are following our example in this respect. We feel to-day that we are in great danger, not merely of attack from the air, but of being overwhelmed by an air force if the present conditions, which seem so favourable to us, should not so continue.
I want to put the case of those who manufacture these armaments, and to show in what real difficulties they are at the present moment. I was sorry to hear, from the Prime Minister's speech to-night, that the Government are going to bring out a programme from time to time as it may suit the occasion. I think it would be far better, if we are going to keep these men employed in the skilled trades in which they are at present, that we should formulate a programme, however modest, so that we might know what the future requirements will be. To show how difficult the position is, I am obliged to mention one or two facts regarding the town with which I am so much connected. I know that what applies to one city applies equally to another, and I hope I shall not from time to time speak only from the point of view of one particular town; but I do say that, if one finds that the conditions are very grave in one particular town, it is one's duty to bring those conditions forward, because no country can be healthy if, even in one of its constituencies, there is grave discontent on account of the manner in which people have been treated.
At present the orders for guns, shells and other armaments of that kind only represent one-third of what we received before the War in point of money, and only one-sixth in point of weight. We find that in Sheffield we are now coming to the last of our resources. During the War there was an influx into the town of anything up to 100,000 souls. At present we are carrying all those people on our backs, and our large firms are paying six times as much in rates as before the War. We find we have no fewer than 26,000 men out of work, and, reckoning three per family, that means that no fewer than 15 per cent. of our population are at present out of employment. It is quite true that that is very exceptional, but, although we have had booms and we hope to have a revival of trade, trade in our city can never be said to have been really good. In the past we have been largely helped by the process of emigration, not only to other cities, but to some of the overseas Dominions. We find now, however, that emigration has almost entirely ceased, on account of the unemployment insurance, which, I think naturally, makes our unemployed feel that it would be better to continue to obtain unemployment benefit for a little longer than, perhaps, to go to another town or to emigrate overseas. Moreover, although I have always been in favour of emigration for many of those who are young, I have never thought for a moment that advocacy of emigration was of any use in the case of our older and more highly skilled men.
We have in the last year or two paid out of the rates no less than £1,250,000 on account of unemployment. We have borrowed £2,250,000, and it has cost us altogether, in the last two or three years, no less than £4,250,000. We have some 28,000 summonses issued, not to those who live in the smaller houses, but we find that our largest firms are unable to pay their rates. They are paid partly out of capital or they are paying them in instalments. Had we been extravagant, as I fear some authorities have been, a measure of blame for the state of things might have fallen a great deal upon ourselves, but we have administered our Poor Law in a way which, has been extremely economical. We have almost starved some of our essential services, and the position is very much graver than anyone might suppose. The rates we have outstanding to-day amount to no less than £700,000. I, therefore, ask the Government to see that in this respect we get our full share of the work which is being given out in the construction of the five cruisers. I ask further that we should have a definite programme, and that we should be able to rely on it that the most skilled men we have should be able to continue at work at their own employment I admit frankly that we cannot expect that all should be able to continue at their own trade in that way. It is a very deplorable thing to think that men who, in case of war, could not possibly be replaced, are now driving trams or acting as tram conductors. I urge the Government to do everything they possibly can towards finding work in that respect, and to remember that it is a question of very great urgency and a thing which will not brook further delay.
I rise with the accents of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain Benn) still echoing through the ears of Members of the House. He is a great friend of mine, a member of my party, and has made a most brilliant and effective contribution to the Debate, but I profoundly disagree with him. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) just now said there was a fundamental inconsistency between the ideas of those who believe in international disarmament and those who see this problem from the point of view of national security. I think the Prime Minister very ably dealt with that argument. I see no such fundamental inconsistency. I believe at the back of nearly all our minds there is this thought! How can we rid humanity of the burden of armaments and how shall we exorcise the spectre of war? But we are primarily thinking to-night of naval defence and of the need, which no Member in any quarter of the House is likely to disregard, of safeguarding those trade routes along which we import three-quarters of our food and four-fifths of our raw material, imports as essential to the existence of the great majority of the people in these islands as the air they breathe. If Britain was enfeebled in her naval defence she could no longer aspire to exercise any decisive influence in the councils of the world in favour of peace and disarmament. Her weakness would only raise the hopes of reactionaries and militarists in every country of the world. It would excite their cupidity and inflame their ambition and the goal of disarmament would be still further away than it was before. A great many hon. Members say we should lead the way, we should give a lead; we should give some token of the sincerity with which our statesmen constantly, before the court of world opinion, advocate the cause of general disarmament. But we were the first of all the countries of the world after the Peace to abolish conscription. We abdicated our aerial supremacy. In neither of these respects have foreign countries followed our lead.
At present there are only 100,000 fewer armed men in Europe than there were in 1913 although the great armies which were then in being in Germany, Austria, Hungary and Bulgaria have been reduced to skeleton proportions by the terms of the Peace, and aerial armaments are being piled on. In neither of these respects has the lead which this country has given been followed by foreign powers. A million men in arms now have a far greater killing power and are far more formidable than a million were in 1913. A million men with modern armaments, tanks, gas, aeroplanes, guns with a range of 50, 60 or 100 miles, have far greater killing power than 1,000,000 men had in 1913, and this factor must be taken into account in estimating the increase in European armaments which has accompanied the decrease in British armaments since the War.
So much for the lead we have given. This was in spite of our lead, in spite of the abdication of our aerial supremacy, in spite of our abolition of conscription, in spite of the part we took in the summoning of the Washington Conference, in spite of the part we took in that Conference in accepting a standard of equality with another Power, and in spite of the lead we gave in putting into effect the decisions of that Conference. My submission, therefore, is that in discussing this question we have to consider the needs of our naval defence. We have to keep in our minds the ideal of general disarmament, but we have to remember that it is only by safeguarding our trade routes that we can make sure of the supplies of food and raw material which are essential to the very future of our people. Mastery of our trade routes is essential. Without it we are helpless in the face of our enemies, we are powerless for good or for ill, for peace or for disarmament, and as a great Power we perish. It is, therefore, to my mind the more to be regretted that the Government did not make very clear, when they announced their policy on this question of cruisers and destroyers, that they were basing this policy on the needs of naval defence. [An HON. MEMBER: "They were not!"] If it be true that they were, as I am disposed to believe they were, it just shows how unfortunate it was that the Parliamentary Secretary, in announcing his policy, based it specifically, in the answer to a question which was drawn up in the Admiralty carefully and coolly—not a hurried answer to a supplementary question, but a prepared written answer—upon the question of employment.
I think it is a pity he did not give way to me when I interrupted him, as he interrupted a speech just now. I wanted to ask him how far this decision was based upon the ground of unemployment. Obviously, it is based on unemployment to a certain extent. It is a very important question, and I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary or the Civil Lord to make it quite clear, because we have had no proper explanation of this question at present, how far this decision is based upon the needs of employment in the dockyards. I do not know why he shelters himself behind this argument of unemployment. The principle of dealing with unemployment by the accumulation of armaments is so fallacious, so pernicious and so indefensible, in view of the conference which, at that very time, was taking place in Borne on the question of naval disarmament, that I should, if that were the issue before the House to-night, very reluctantly be compelled to vote against the Government: but I do not believe that that is the issue. I accept the statement in the Memorandum which accompanies the Naval Estimates, over the signature of the First Lord, I accept the statement of the Prime Minister, and I accept the arguments put forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher).
I believe that the construction of these cruisers is absolutely justified from the point of view of national defence. I do not desire to discuss the question from that point of view. The House has heard arguments in favour of these cruisers from the mouths of people who are much more competent to pronounce upon the technical questions involved than I am. It is very difficult for a private Member, with the sources of information open to a private Member, to reach a considered judgment upon a highly technical question of this kind, and I think that private Members assume a very serious responsibility when they ask this House to refuse to the Government the supply which the Government, in the exercise of its responsibilities and on the advice of those who are appointed to advise it, say is absolutely essential for our naval needs.
I am far from being one of those who think that the Lords of the Admiralty should dictate the policy of the Government. On that point I agree with what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). It is the duty of the Lords of the Admiralty to tender their advice, but policy is the responsibility of Ministers. I protest against the canards in the newspapers which say that the Lords of the Admiralty are going to resign now on the question of the cruisers, now on some other question, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary or the Civil Lord or whoever replies will make it quite clear that that is untrue, as I believe it to be untrue. They may think it too contemptible to notice, but I hope they will give these mischievous calumnies a direct denial, because they have the very reverse effect upon public opinion from that which is ostensibly intended. Public opinion would not support the Lords of the Admiralty in withholding their assistance from the Government unless it could be shown that their advice had been deliberately ignored and flouted for a period of time, or unless it could be shown that through the negligence, incompetence or bad faith of Ministers the foundations of our naval security were being imperilled. For the newspapers to make out that the Lords of the Admiralty have a sort of grip upon every Ministry, whatever party is in power, and that they always insist upon getting their own way, whatever the question may be that is under discussion, does not strengthen, but weakens very much the high regard in which the Admiralty is held by all responsible and patriotic sections of opinion. No! The responsibility for this policy rests upon the Prime Minister and upon each Member of his Cabinet.
10.0 P.M.
It is quite evident therefore that the Amendment we are discussing is a Motion of "No Confidence" in the Government, and those who vote for it must inevitably intend that the Government shall resign.[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Certainly. My hon. Friends on this side have put I their views on this important question very clearly before the House. I have listened to their admirable speeches with the greatest desire for conversion, and if my conversion has not been effected it is not from any desire not to agree with my hon. Friends on this subject, as I do on almost every other conceivable point of policy which may be discussed in this House. I find that their views fall, roughly, into two categories. On the one hand, they criticise these proposals of the Government because the Government have urged that they are essential to deal with unemployment. As far as the Government have urged that, I agree with my hon. Friends heartily. It is absurd to put forward proposals like these, based upon the needs of the unemployed. The Government have also made it clear that these proposals are based upon the needs of national defence. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I have here the Memorandum circulated by the First Lord of the Admiralty. He says:
Hear, hear.
My hon. and gallant Friend says "Hear, hear." We are told that the other cruisers cost only £950,000, that these will cost £1,500,000, and that the new cruisers are far more heavily armed than the cruisers which they are to replace. I would rather vote for the abolition of all our national armaments than vote for building futile, weak cruisers, incapable of carrying out the function for which they are intended, cruisers destined to be outpaced and outgunned by the cruisers now building in the yards of the United States, Japan, and other Powers. Unfortunately, when you are discussing the question of a minimum wage you come up against the argument that if you make a minimum wage you are apt to make a maximum wage at the same time, and when you have a maximum standard of naval construction you find, inevitably, that the maximum standard will generally become the minimum standard. If you have a maximum standard of 10,000-ton cruisers, every country in the world will build up to that standard.
I am unable to understand the bearing upon this Debate of certain snippets read by hon. Members from the French and Italian newspapers. One hon. Member made great play with these quotations, and he said that a great number of these newspapers are inspired by their Government. In so far as they are inspired by their Governments, I suppose those Governments, notably Signor Mussolini, to whom the hon. Member referred will be delighted to find the reaction which they intended to provoke in the Parliament of Great Britain in the speech of these hon. Members. He knows perfectly well that it is very difficult to tell whether any particular article in these foreign newspapers is or is not inspired by the Government in this way. I prefer the Prime Minister's view. The Prime Minister, who is the responsible Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, has told us that the criticisms in the foreign Press do not affect him in the least. He is the only man in the House at the present time who is in a position to judge the value of these articles. Is it seriously to be contended that we are to subordinate our national armaments, the measures necessary to protect our food supplies and our supplies of raw material, and the necessary measures for our naval defence to the views and whims and susceptibilities of any French or Italian journalist who chooses to scribble an article?
I was only making the point that the building of these cruisers stimulates building in other countries.
That is the hon. Member's contention but his quotations afford no proof. My contention is that we really must decide our policy on these matters for ourselves and not in reference to what a journalist may scribble in a foreign country. Hon. Members have made very carefully thought-out speeches based on a careful study of all the sources of information open to private Members. If the House prefers the advice tendered by these hon. Gentlemen to the advice tendered by the Prime Minister is it conceivable that that sense of dignity, which the Prime Minister said would decide for him the question of resignation, would allow him to hold office? I would ask him to consider the record of the Prime Minister in these matters. The record of the Prime Minister is that of an earnest and convinced pacifist. His record is not that of a man who fears unpopularity or who would be deterred from a course which he thought right by the threat of resignation from one of his colleagues. Even to those who believe that his policy is dictated by unworthy considerations of electorial contingencies, I would say that surely the Prime Minister, in pusuing the line he has put before the House, is taking a much greater risk than the risk of the resignation of a Minister who holds his office on a precarious and constitutionally unprecedented tenure. If, now that the Prime Minister has assumed the responsibilities of his office he finds it necessary to face unpopularity to take a great electoral risk, to alienate the sympathies of men with whom he has worked in intimate political comradeship for many years, I for my part will be no party to taking advantage of his embarrassment. I shall therefore give my support to the Prime Minister in the grave decision which he has taken.
I wish to draw attention to one aspect of naval defence, which is that of being prepared and of having everything ready. Hon. Members will remember that before the War ships were kept on half commission, with a nucleus of seamen in readiness, simply because we required a large body of seamen to man our warships in case of war. That procedure was not maintained or carried out in the dockyards. During the War we suffered heavy and grievous losses. We had to extend our dockyards at great expense to the country. Dockyards take a long time to build. To-day we have still the remains of temporary dockyards which had to be built. I preach to this House on this subject, and I am afraid I shall weary the House very much, but at the same time I do feel that I have the sympathy of every man of every party in this House with the position of Barrow. There was a memorandum sent to the Prime Minister the other day from which I will quote. It stated: which have been encouraged since their initiation to go in for armaments, get sufficient work to keep them going.
There is no use preaching that Christian Science is going to defend this country. Sensible men have decided that Christian Science is not yet going to take the place of doctors. Can any hon. Member say that propaganda and putting trust in our neighbours is going to be sufficient to protect this Empire? The thing is ridiculous. As a nation we are not exactly liked in the world; we are very much feared in certain quarters, and we are very much envied. The Prime Minister to-night, in what was a very fine speech from his own party point of view, uttered what to my mind was a very serious warning. It was to this effect, that this country could only count on a settled peace for a very few years. If he meant that warning, as I assume he did, I presume that he had information which was not available to other Members of this House. But he seemed to me to contradict himself in his speech, for he told us that in a few years very grave danger might face this country, and he also told us, on the other hand, that he considered that we should be in a much better position to bargain before we had extended the Singapore Dockyard. That is to say, in his opinion words were much more efficacious than deeds. That would be an extraordinary attitude if the Prime Minister anticipates this danger affecting this country. Surely this is not the time to stop building cruisers and taking all necessary precautions. Surely it is the time to make sure of our position, and to take every precaution. Many hon. Members below the Gangway state that, in their opinion, if we took what we on this side considered necessary precautions, and built sufficient cruisers to protect our trade routes, it would arouse envy, distrust and animosity in other countries. But this country is above that sort of thing.
It would not arouse envy and distrust, but would produce other cruisers.
This country has a greater demand and a greater requirement for cruisers than any other country. This county depends on her overseas trade, and if other countries are going to compete with us it shows the world is not so peaceable as hon. Members opposite try to make out. Therefore it is all the more necessary that we should prepare ourself for possible eventualities, and for the eventuality about which the Prime Minister warned us to-night. That brings me back to—[HON. MEMBERS: "Barrow"!]—not to Barrow, but to the question of having sufficient workmen in this country to make the necessary ships and armaments when they are required. These men are leaving this country, they are going to America, and going all over the world. Can this country afford to lose these skilled mechanics? I say it cannot.
There is one question I wish to ask, and it is about submarines. In the naval programme laid down by the last Government there were specified eight cruisers, two or more submarines, one or two mine-laying boats and other subsidiary boats. In the statement this afternoon there is no reference to them, and I would be glad of some informtaion on the subject. I mention the matter because submarines are highly technical productions. They are the result of very great experience, and they require careful designing and constuction, of which this country has made a speciality. I would mention that one of the first submarines built was built at Barrow, and that town is in a very fine position to make some more. Whatever the value of aeroplanes, this country will look to her first line, which is the Navy. There are trade routes and enormous areas of ocean which cannot be covered by airships or aeroplanes. It is essential, in view of possibilities, that this country should be in a position to build warships and cruisers to protect her trade and the Empire.
I am very reluctant to ask the attention of the House, even for a few moments, to a question so highly technical, of which I confess I have no expert knowledge. But I voted with the Government on 21st February, and I am going to vote against the Government to-night, and I want, if I can, in three or four sentences, to give a humble private Member's view of the way in which he has been converted. The case, as it was presented to my mind, and as it led me into the Lobby on 21st February was, primarily, that we were going to have some anticipation of what may be called a routine programme of reconstruction for the purpose mainly of dealing with a particular problem of unemployment. Although I am profoundly opposed to any project of military construction for the purpose of finding work for the unemployed, yet I am bound to say that I thought there might be something to be said in the special case of the dockyard workers, and, as we were assured that the Debate of that night would not in any way prejudice the later freedom of the House of Commons to decide, I thought it was right to wait before making up my mind on that issue, and I voted with the Government. But I find later that, in the first place, anticipation has disappeared apparently from the argument. We heard much about it from the right hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. Baldwin) when the proposal was first introduced, but if the speeches we have heard tonight correctly represent the situation the right hon. Member for Bewdley ought not to have been talking about anticipation of a programme; he should have been reproaching himself for allowing us to get into an extraordinary dangerous situation. Anticipation has disappeared from the Government speeches as well as from the Opposition speeches, and unemployment has practically disappeared as well from the argument on both sides. That which contributed to draw me into the Lobby has vanished.
The second consideration which drew me into that Lobby was that I was told that this was merely a question of the replacement of certain ships in the ordinary course of events. As I have listened to the Debate to-night, I have been made to feel that it is something very much more. Speaker after speaker, and in particular the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) drew terrifying pictures of the new competition in armaments which is just beginning—the competition in what they call pocket Dreadnoughts which are described as extraordinarily formidable and dangerous vessels. That competition is just beginning; the competition is not yet begun in the case of the majority of the other steps which are indicated. At this moment we are in no grave national danger. We know there will be no prospect of war for years to come, and in naval matters we are sheltered by the Washington Agreement. There is time to negotiate, if we desire to have an extension of the idea of the Washington Agreement to the other sphere in which danger is now arising. On that ground, and also on the ground of our being as efficient as we possibly can be, if ever the unhappy moment comes when a new danger accrues, it seems to me undeniable that the only wise course for us to pursue is not to accelerate and not to anticipate but to retard our construction of this new and dangerous class of vessel to the very last possible moment to which it can be retarded. Finally, I was confirmed in this conversion by the realisation of what I believe to be the real effect produced on the mind of Europe by our gesture, if I may use the popular word of the moment. Though it would be an exaggeration to speak of the Rome Conference as having been wrecked by our action—it would be a ridiculous exaggeration to say any such thing— there is no doubt that the atmosphere of the Home Conference was to some extent vitiated or made worse by the fact that competition was beginning again—the old, terrible, ugly competition in a new kind of vessel, just below the level ruled off by the Washington Agreement. On these grounds, with complete conviction, I shall to-night reverse the vote which I gave on 21st February.
The simple question raised by the Amendment is this: What is the proved justification which requires the House of Commons to agree, here and now, to the laying down of these five new cruisers? This Debate indicates, as all similar Debates do, that there are three groups of people and three ways in which a question of that sort is approached by different Members of the House. Anybody who has Parliamentary experience in Debates of this kind knows it is always so, and these three different ways of looking at the question have appeared again and again during the Debate of this evening. First, you have those Members whose prepossessions in favour of abundant naval expenditure are so strong that they are very easily satisfied that any given expenditure proposed is urgent and justified. It is a perfectly sincere point of view, and is, I know, held by people of the keenest patriotism, and it is a point of view often expressed by some Members of this House. I am not referring solely to the Dockyard Members, though I am bound to say, if I may do so in the presence of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), that I do not know what is the limit to the amount of shipbuilding in Royal Dockyards which a Member for a Dockyard town would regard as excessive This point of view is by no means limited to the dockyard Member, a Member who necessarily has very much and very sincerely at heart the special needs and anxieties of a particular population, but it is the view also of others, who feel most keenly—and who are, perhaps, carried away by the feeling—the importance, the overwhelming importance, of sea power, the absolute necessity of adequate defence, the tremendous rôle of the British Navy, things which make them, to put it mildly, very ready indeed to acquiesce, without much analysis or argument of the particular case, in any given proposal of naval expenditure.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), who interposed just now and put a point of view, will excuse me if I say that his speech would have been equally effective if it had been in favour of 10 or 20 cruisers, or 10 or 20 submarines, or any other form of expenditure which is alleged to contribute to national defence. I venture to think that we cannot decide this matter by allowing ourselves to be moved and impelled by general considerations of that kind, and that is the first group of opinions which shows itself on occasions like this.
It is not so easily disposed of.
But it is a form of opinion which, I think, we may fairly classify in that way.
There is a second, equally clearly marked, group, holding opinions expressed with equal sincerity and equal courage, such as, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Batley (Mr. Turner), who spoke earlier in the evening. They are Gentlemen who really are committed in advance against a proposal for naval expenditure, quite as surely as there are the first group, who may be regarded as committed in advance in favour of it. We had an example last night in the discussion on the Army Estimates. I do not presume to criticise, and I do not criticise in the least the sincerity or the courage of hon. Members who take that view, but they will be the first to admit that they resist a proposal of thi6 sort from general principles, not because they feel they are acting as trustees for the taxpayer, whose money must not be spent except upon express cause shown, not because they feel that they are trustees for the nation in securing adequate national defence, but because they take a different kind of view of the way in which the real interests of the country can be served. If I may say so, I thought that what my right hon. Friend the late First Lord of the Admiralty said this afternoon on that subject was very just and cogent.
These are two groups of opinions, but those of us who are putting this Amendment forward to-night, and who intend to support it in the Division Lobby, do not support it either from the one or the other point of view which I have analysed. I repeat what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain Benn)—and I wish very much that he had had the larger audience which I have now, for everybody who heard his speech must have been impressed—that we put forward this criticism from a third and different point of view, and we invite our colleagues in the House of Commons to join us in approaching this difficult question from this point of view. Our submission is that all Members here ought to take up this position: They ought, while deploring expenditure on armaments, to recognise that there is an inevitable minimum need of national defence which must be met, and, therefore, we ought to decide to vote to-night on this principle, that we are prepared to vote for the Government proposal if indeed these cruisers are established to be, by solid argument, matters of urgent and immediate national defence, but that we are equally determined to vote against the Government, if that is not true, and, unless it is true, that national safety is prejudiced by their postponement or reduction. That, I venture to think, is the true issue, and, so far from agreeing with the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness—
I agree with you.
I hope the hon. and gallant Member will agree with what I am going to say now. I may have misunderstood him, but, for my part, I hold that each Member has got to decide that for himself, and I entirely dispute the proposition that any hon. Member may appraise the high moral character of the Prime Minister, or enlarge upon his responsibilities, and the dignity with which he holds his office, and thereby get rid of the duty of finding out what is the reason that has been put forward to defend this. And, unless the reason that is put forward to defend it is a good reason, and a reason that is fairly proved, we are bound, I think, to reject the proposition which is advanced. Therefore, I accept the issue. Let us see what the reason is which, in point of fact, has been put forward primarily and prominently by the Government when they first brought this matter before the House of Commons. The hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary was at first not very much disposed this afternoon to have his attention called to what he said, and when, at a moment convenient to himself, I was permitted to intervene, I interrupted to ask him to tell the House what was the ground—and the only ground—upon which he, the spokesman for the Admiralty, first introduced this proposal of five new cruisers to the House.
It is of the first importance that the House should consider this, and give due weight to it, for, observe, this is not a declaration which was made by the Minister of Labour, who has got a special interest in unemployment as a Departmental subject. This was a statement that was made by the responsible spokesman for the Board of Admiralty in this House. It was not made without preparation. The most elaborate preparation was made. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman took the trouble to find a Conservative Member of the House, who, he thought, would be the most appropriate person to put the question. He would if he could—and very properly and naturally—have asked the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. D. G. Somerville), and I sympathise with the hon. Member, who actually complained that anybody else should have been given the honour and privilege of having this question answered. But, in the unfortunate absence of the hon. Member for Barrow, the hon. Member, I think, for East Hull was able to put the question, and the question is a question which was drafted by the Admiralty to be put, JI order that it might be answered by the Admiralty spokesman. It was in those circumstances that my hon. Friend gave a reason, and he only gave one reason for what was proposed. Speaking on the 21st February, at Question Time, in answer to the hon. Member for East Hull, he said: was taking part in the final Debate before his Government fell, there rose up beside him to take part in the same Debate the then First Lord of the Admiralty, who proceeded to tell the House what it was the Admiralty could do to relieve unemployment. Putting these cruisers down was their contribution. It is most unfair to the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to treat him as though he had made a mess of it by introducing the wrong reason.
I think I made perfectly clear in my remarks that, from the point of view of naval requirements, every one of the things we suggested was necessary, and that the financial provision should have been made before.
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I entirely follow. If I complete my arguments he will see that I have not done him any injustice. The Prime Minister, when he spoke at Plymouth, went on to say that these cruisers were cruisers which in the absence of the exigencies of the situation might not have been undertaken for another couple of years. I have his words here. The right hon. Gentleman said, in excuse for putting this new work in the dockyards then and there: that the Admiralty put forward this cruiser plan. He said:
If you could, then, of course, there would be no justification whatever for reducing dockyard work under any circumstances. If the more work you can give people by producing armaments for land or sea fighting the more the country is employed, then the whole argument which connects unemployment and national distress with heavy expenditure on armaments goes to the wall. There is not one hon. Member above the Gangway who could consistently or logically defend, on those lines, the great cause they have so often gallantly fought for, that you create unemployment by unproductive work and increase employment by productive work.
If you accept that theory then you would have to keep your dockyard employed to the crack of doom. If that theory is right, then the French people have been right all along in keeping up an enormous Army in France in order to reduce unemployment. One hon. Member said that in his own constituency many people are out of work, and that is a place where they used to make mustard gas. I ask, would it be an argument in favour of making more mustard gas to say, if we do make more, then more of the hon. Member's constituents will be employed? The true proposition is that you cannot relieve the total of unemployment in this country by increased expenditure on armaments, because that expenditure increases unemployment in other directions.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Storry-Deans) and other hon. Members, what were they pleading for? Simply that this Amendment must be resisted because Sheffield wants to make steel plates and other steel products. I think they would be much wiser if they urged those whom they represent to devote themselves to the production and manufacture of steel for purposes which are productive instead of for purposes which are destructive. If, in point of fact, it be the case that the only way we can employ the people of this country is by spending enormous sums of money on armaments, then the whole argument for economy and for peace as it has been presented by the Liberal and Labour parties goes completely by the board. It is a realisation of that fact which has made the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty attempt to-day to put his case on some other ground, and which caused the Prime Minister in part to produce a different argument in the Debate on 21st February.
I ask the attention of the House to the second argument, because we must decide this thing by seeing what the arguments really are. The second argument is the famous argument that we are only anticipating replacement and that this is not what is called new construction at all. Well, the late Prime Minister in express terms spoke of this rebuilding as a building which need not necessarily be undertaken, it might be for another two years. It is perfectly plain that, if you avoid using mere Admiralty jargon, "anticipatory replacement" means spending money before you need spend it on unproductive work, which could only be justified if the omission to undertake it now would bring national armaments below the lowest point consistent with national safety. When I lay down as the test of the postponement of that spending, or its omission, something which brings national armaments below the lowest point consistent with national safety, I am not airing some fad of my own, a standard which I have set up. I am quoting the actual terms of the covenant of the League of Nations. This country has pledged itself that it will not spend money on building ships of war beyond the point which is necessary to secure that we attain the lowest point consistent with national safety. Really, what have we had to-day from any quarter of the House which demonstrates that, unless we set to work at once to lay down and build five vessels of 10,000 tons each—which may, for all I know, mount 8-inch guns—the lowest point consistent with national safety has been passed? I ask the hon. Gentleman who is going to reply to deal with this particular point, and to point out what is the flaw in this short argument: if everything must always be replaced and if nobody must ever be dismissed from a dockyard, then how can there ever be progress towards disarmament in the lifetime of a Labour Government? I am quite unable to understand how you can possibly proceed on the assumption that you are never to dismiss people from a dockyard, and never fail to replace everything that wears out, and at the same time secure a lowering of the standard of naval strength. We then come to the last resort.
Casuistry!
I think that, if the hon. Gentleman will give me the best of his attention, he will find he can quite follow it. Then comes the last line of defence, which is always adopted on these occasions. It is the technical argument. I will quote to the hon. Gentleman opposite an opinion which I think he will probably respect, for it comes from a very eminent Conservative statesman: between foreign policy and armaments, and that was the view which was urged upon the House of Commons by Lord Randolph Churchill. The attempt is made to support the technical argument by this Return, which has just been produced by the Admiralty, of the Fleets of the British Empire and other naval Powers, omitting obsolete ships of all classes. Have hon. Gentlemen opposite really examined this Return? I take it, as an official Return, as conveying information of value, and before we vote for these five additional cruisers under any impression that they really are shown to be instantly needed, if we are not going to lose the minimum of national safety, it is really necessary to look at this document, which is not in the least a difficult document to understand. The Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) knows it very well.
11.0 P.M.
Let us just see what it shows. It is, on the face of it, a document prepared by the British Admiralty for the purpose of informing the House of Commons how these different Powers stand, omitting obsolete ships of all classes. When I turn to the list of cruisers of the British Empire, I find there are 42 of the Home Navy, and six of the Dominion Navies, making, therefore, 48, and four building, making altogether 52; and that, in the case of the British Navy, the Admiralty authorities do not think it proper to include any vessel completed later than 1911. How does the United States compare with that, and how does Japan compare with it? The United States, by this same document, is credited with 15 light cruisers built, and three building; and even that figure can only be produced if you credit them with cruisers that were built as long ago as 1903. Japan, according to this return, has 17 built, five building, and three projected; and in that case, again, in order to produce these figures, the British Admiralty has to go back to the year 1909. What is the good, in those circumstances, of telling the House of Commons that, as a matter of fact, it is in cruisers that we have the greatest pinch of urgency to increase our armaments? It, palpably, is not true. T did not resist, and had not the slightest desire to resist, the proposal the other day that we should spend more on the Air Force, because any sensible man who examines the facts and figures can see for himself, without being a technical expert, that there is a branch in which we are extremely weak. At any rate, if we are going to proceed upon the test as to whether we have got at the moment the minimum which is essential for national safety, I can understand the arguments about the Air Force, but I wholly fail to understand the argument as it is attempted to be put on behalf of these cruisers. If you were to take, as the Noble Lord invited us quite properly to take, special care to select the cruisers which are the more modern in construction, it is very material to see what the figures are. They were given the other day by the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) asked what were the figures of British cruisers, American cruisers, and Japanese cruisers if you confine yourself to cruisers which are less than 12 years old, and which have been built not less therefore than 12 years ago. The answer was that in the case of the British Empire we have 46, in the case of Japan there are 16, in the case of France there are 4, and in the case of the United States, 7. If you prefer the test of how many of them are in full commission, keeping yourself to the practically modern ships, in the case of the British Empire we have 34 out of the 46 in full commission, in the case of Japan 14, of France 4, and of the United States, 7. There never has been in the history of controversy about naval construction in the House of Commons a case that is so utterly wanting in proof and substance on the ground of the immediate necessities of national defence.
Will the right hon. Gentleman compare our liabilities for defence with those of other countries—what we have to defend in the way of trade routes?
If that was not the broad distinction, that of course would be in itself a condemnation of having had anything like so many. The hon. Gentleman surely will give me credit for understanding that the British Empire calls for a larger number of craft of this sort than these other powers.
Did you hear the speech of the hon. Member for Basingtoke (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) to-day?
I did not hear it. Let me deal with the hon. Member opposite. Do I really understand him, a supporter of the Conservative party, to tell me that at the time when his Government went out of office it had let down the naval defence of the country to a point which was below the minimum of safety?
The right hon. Gentleman has challenged me on a subject which we are not discussing now, and he has endeavoured by doing so to get out of answering the question I put.
I am in the recollection of the House. I answered the hon. Member, and if he likes I will answer him in the language of the late First Lord of the Admiralty. [An HON. MEMBER: "Never mind about him."] I must ask the hon. Member to attend to what the late First Lord of the Admiralty said. He was presenting the Naval Estimates of the late Conservative Government last year, and he pointed out that while we were markedly inferior in destroyers and submarines, we were stronger in light cruisers and aircraft carriers, and he, with the whole responsibility of this matter on his shoulders, gave the figures, which showed how much stronger we were then than these other Powers. I invite the hon. Member opposite to accept the view of the late First Lord of the Admiralty, that he was serving the country faithfully in making no further proposals than he then made. Since then the Prime Minister has announced that these cruisers may be built as a relief of unemployment in the dockyards. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Certainly. If you are prepared to vote for further expenditure on the Navy and Army because by that means you hope to cure unemployment, there is nothing more to be said; but as far as I am concerned and as far as many hon. Members on this side are concerned, we repudiate utterly the argument that you can cure unemployment by methods of that sort.
This is a very grave matter, as to which, up to the present, we have really had no adequate defence from the Government. Unless you can produce a justification which goes to this exact point, the necessity of maintaining our naval defence at the minimum that is requisite for national safety, we are by this Vote to-night completely opposing the spirit of the League of Nations. We are setting absolutely at nought the Covenant of the League by which we are bound, and we are doing it under circumstances which, as we are already warned, are circumstances which Europe is only too likely to misunderstand. Does anybody really suppose that the other naval Powers of Europe regard our excuse that it is unemployment in the dockyards which moves us as being a final and complete explanation? We have had quotations, not by any means quotations from casual papers, but from most responsible journals of opinion, showing the tendency of Europe to ask, naturally enough, that if we are going to continue to employ our dockyards in building ships because there are men otherwise out of work there, when is it going to stop; when is that excuse going to cease to be a valid excuse? We may be certain that Europe disregards the excuse of unemployment in connection with this policy as, in fact, a new naval advance. If we mount on these new cruisers 8-inch guns, we shall be within the permission of the Washington Conference, but if we mount 8-inch guns we are at once raising the whole level and the whole standard—
That is not so.
It is a pity the hon. Member should say that, because he ought to have read the White Paper. You do not need to be a great expert to be able to read a perfectly plain document. My hon. Friend will find that the existing cruisers of the British Navy mount, some of them, 7·5 guns, and he will find that 6-inch guns are the guns in the/ American Navy, and that in the case of the Japanese Navy there is one single ship with 8-inch guns and that ship is not yet launched. I say that if we once start building new cruisers with this increased armament we are, in fact, starting a new race of armaments which will be in the last degree destructive of the peace of the world. Lastly, may I point out that the very argument the Prime Minister used this afternoon for not indulging now in the Singapore scheme could be lifted almost word for word into an argument against those five cruisers? He said: "I have two choices before me, because, of course, we all desire to promote peace. One choice is to say that I will build, and when I have started building I will have a conference, so that if we can arrange a settlement we will stop building." Then he said: "There is the better way, to promote international disarmament. It is to say 'No, I will pause; I will see whether, by holding my hand, I cannot bring others to the way we all want to follow.'" The truth is, and it is entirely plain, that in this matter—and I do not in the least doubt their good and pacific intentions—the Government have been influenced to give in to the Board of Admiralty at a point where they should never have given in at all. They would naturally have desired not only to drop the Singapore scheme, which the Prime Minister described as a wild and wanton escapade, but they would have applied this principle, as stated by the Prime Minister himself, "Surely, if there is one rule in defensive armaments, it is that you should never build them until the danger appears." The real result of this decision is this—and I have to put it on record as I think established by experience—that whereas a Liberal Government, when it had the opportunity, deliberately gave up a portion of the programme previously projected, and thereby enabled our vessels which were afterwards built to be the latest and most powerful vessels in the world, here you have the opposite policy, which is an essentially foolish policy, because it is a policy which is adopting the building of these ships without proof that they are immediately required, on the utterly false ground that they are the means of curing unemployment, when in truth and in fact the Government should have taken a bold stand against the demands of the Board of Admiralty and declared, as Governments before this have declared, that they are the trustees for the taxpayers of this country and the judges of the policy of this country, and that neither the interests of the one nor the cause of the other could be promoted by expenditure which is not defended by any rational and consecutive argument whatsoever.
The gravamen of the charge against the Government by Members of the Liberal party is that the whole of the proposals in relation to cruisers is inspired by and is dependent upon our anxiety in relation to unemployment. If it had not been for that assumption, which I here declare to be wrong, there would have been very little ground for the arguments advanced, and we should have been spared these long speeches if hon. Members had taken the trouble to read a little more fully the whole of the context of the discussion in relation to our cruiser programme, rather than fasten upon one line in the Parliamentary answer given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty; but even if one reads this particular line I do not think that it can be assumed for a moment that the words "in view of" can be construed to read "because of." My right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir John Simon) taunted my Noble Friend the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) with the fact that it is not necessary to have a wide expert knowledge in order to read a simple document. With all due deference to my right hon. and learned Friend, it is not necessary to be a brilliant world-renowned lawyer either, to see through the fallacy of an argument. If they care to construe the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary in the literal way in which they have, I am afraid that I should not be able to disabuse their minds of that particular prejudice, or, as my right hon. and learned Friend would call it, prepossession.
The simple fact remains as explained by the Prime Minister, that the whole raison d'etre of the five cruisers is that there must be certain definite replacements. No matter how that term is used—and it ought to be taken on its face value—the term indicates what it means on the surface, that something has gone out, something has ceased to be effective and it has to be substituted by something else. I have listened with marked amusement to the argument that if you persist in the idea of replacement you can never effectively disarm. But there i3 such a thing as partial replacement, and partial replacement has been embarked upon. Hon. Members opposite and my right hon. Friend the late First Lord of the Admiralty had a much bigger and more comprehensive programme of replacement than we have now, and the right hon. Gentleman has said to-night that his scheme of replacement, from his point of view, was still limited replacement. In fact he attempted with much feeling, if I might say so, to explain regretfully that the replacements which he had contemplated, limited though they were from his point of view had not been put into effect, and that he was handing over to the next Government—to us—a heritage of ineffectiveness and naval inefficiency which rather left him with some pangs of conscience. I do not think that my right hon. Friend will quarrel with my deduction from his remarks.
That is the whole point: The late Government had a plan for partial replacement, and we have a plan for partial replacement on a much smaller scale. Our plan has nothing to do primarily with the question of unemployment. I want to make that perfectly and categorically clear. It has nothing to do with the question of unemployment primarily. If it had, if the Government were solely concerned with unemployment, why did it not embrace the whole scheme of the late Government, which would have provided employment for 28,000 men other than Dockyard men, whereas the existing scheme of the Government can, at the maximum, find employment for only 7,500 men other than Dockyard men? The answer is perfectly clear. If we had taken unemployment as the reason, we would naturally have embarked upon the larger programme. But it is not the reason and we have now to face the discharge of certain dockyard workmen who will be discharged at the end of this month— men for whom we could have provided work, if the mere provision of work had been the prime consideration. I invite the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley to tell the House from where he got the information that the Government was proposing this scheme of cruiser replacement in order to cure unemployment. [HON. MEMBERS: "He gave extracts from statements and speeches.'] If we have to avoid a Division we have to convince Liberal Members. A very pertinent and proper question was asked by the hon. Member for Willesden (Mr. Harcourt Johnstone). He asked whether this proposal was necessary for national defence, for the maintenance of our position in the world. Even though you have a very small Navy, considerably below the Navy of other days, at least it is desirable that the small Navy should be efficient. I remember well, a few years ago, having an argument with some of my friends, who used to say to me "The only way to bring about destruction of the capitalist system is to make it thoroughly unremunerative and inefficient." Is it to be supposed that the only way of bringing about disarmament is by making the Navy thoroughly inefficient and inadequate? With the limited number of cruisers we are now going to secure in the next three-and-a-half years, we shall still be considerably less than we were two or three years ago. We have scrapped a dozen ships; we are proposing to put five in their place. In the course of the building of those ships, other ships will have to be scrapped or put on reserve. These particular ships will considerably out number the ships that are being built to replace them so that, as against the building of five new ships, there will be anything from 11 to 16 going out. Does that indicate an extension of our naval strength? On the contrary, it shows a marked diminution of our naval strength, but with that diminution, the ships that are built must represent a degree of efficiency. If the financial exigencies of our country or national or international policy compel us to keep a small Navy, then there is no earthly reason why that small Navy should not represent the maximum degree of effectiveness.
I would like to make one observation in reply to a rather scathing comment upon the relationship of the Government to the Admiralty. We were told that the Government were afraid of the Sea Lords. If they were, would they have been able to come here to-night, as the Prime Minister has told us, in the teeth of the advice of the Sea Lords, as to the strategical value of Singapore, and say that the Government do not propose to proceed with it? Is that indicative of fear of the Admiralty? On the contrary, it shows that the Government has sufficient strength of character and moral purpose to say that a question of strategy in all the Services must be subordinated to our national and international policy, that the Services must never be superior to national policy, that they must be subordinate to our relationships, and our belief in our relationships—and our policy with regard thereto—to the rest of the world. What is more, I wish to repudiate the suggestion that the Sea Lords are raising anything like objection to this attitude. I have never met any criticism, any suspicion of disloyalty on the part of the Sea Lords in relation to the Government. The Government has not agreed with their technical and strategic minds, but there have been no rumours of revolt. If I may be excused for mentioning one name—[HON. MEM-BEES: "No!"] Speaking generally, then, of the Sea Lords, without naming anyone in particular, ever since I have been connected with the Admiralty they have shown the most marked loyalty and the most keen desire to see that the Government's policy, whatever it may be, is carried out to the fullest extent. I wish to say that on their behalf, because I think it wrong to sow this element of discord, and indicate that all is not as loyal as you would expect it to be, as between this great Service and the Government.
The question really amounts to this: Is the replacement at all necessary? Hon. Members below the Gangway say that if we can prove it is necessary they will not press the Division. Is not the answer perfectly obvious? If all our Colonies were independent and self-governing in military and naval matters, as well as in
home matters, and they had to establish navies of their own, the aggregate navies of the Colonies would be infinitely larger than the Navy that is now in operation, and which serves the purposes of the Empire, and it is not because there is any suggestion whatsoever of using this for aggression. All our Colonies are perfectly aware of the fact that, with the diminishing of the number of ships in operation, these ships, although they are of a higher standard, with greater displacement, and probably will have larger guns than ships which have existed hitherto, are absolutely necessary for policing the trade routes of our Empire in order to protect what, after all, must be regarded as the economic life of that Empire. In the light of these observations, while it may appear to be asking the House too much not to press the Amendment to a Division, I trust the House will now pass to a Division in order that the question might be disposed of.
Can I have an answer about the submarines?
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 114.
Division No. 29.] AYES. [11.35 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Bullock, Captain M. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Burman, J. B. Dawson, Sir Philip Ainsworth, Captain Charles Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Deans, Richard Storry Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Duckworth, John Alexander, Brg.-Gen. Sir W. (Glas. C.) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Dudgeon, Major C. R. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Caine, Gordon Hall Dukes, C. Ammon, Charles George Campion, Lieut. -Colonel W. R. Eden, Captain Anthony Aske, Sir Robert William Cassels, J. D. Edmondson, Major A. J. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Astor, Viscountess Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) Attlee, Major Clement R. Chapman, Sir S. Elveden Viscount Baker, W. J. Charleton, H. C. England, Colonel A. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Chilcott, Sir Warden Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Church, Major A. G. Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Banks, Reginald Mitchell Clarke, A. Ferguson, H. Banton, G. Clarry, Reginald George Fitz Roy, Capt. Hon. Edward. A. Barnes, A. Climie, R. Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Batey, Joseph Cluse, W. S. Foot, Isaac Beckett, Sir Gervase Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W Cobb, Sir Cyril Galbraith, J. F. W. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Betterton, Henry B. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Blades, Sir George Rowland Conway, Sir W. Martin Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Bondfield, Margaret Cope, Major William George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Cove, W. G. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Gilbert, James Daniel Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Crittall, V. G. Gillett, George M. Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Page Gosling, Harry Brassey, Sir Leonard Curzon, Captain Viscount Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Dalkeith, Earl of Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Brittain, Sir Harry Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Greene, W. P. Crawford Broad, F. A. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Bromfield, William Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Buckingham, Sir H. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Buckle, J. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Gretton, Colonel John Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sitch, Charles H. Grundy, T. W. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Guest, Capt. Hn. F.E. (Gloucstr., Stroud) March, S. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Marley, James Smith-Carington, Neville W. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Snell, Harry Gwynne, Rupert S. Middleton, G. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mills, J. E. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furn'ss) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Harland, A. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Spence, R. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Montague, Frederick Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Hartington, Marquess of Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. -Col. J. T. C. Stamford, T. W. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Stanley, Lord Harvey, C.M.B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne) Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton) Steel, Samuel Strang Hastings, Sir Patrick Murray, Robert Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Hayday, Arthur Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hayes, John Henry Naylor, T. E. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Hemmerde, E. G. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sturrock, J. Leng Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfield) Nixon, H. Sutcliffe, T. Henn, Sir Sydney H. O'Grady, Captain James Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Oliver, George Harold Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hirst, G. H. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Paling, W. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) Hodges, Frank Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Tillett, Benjamin Hoffman, P. C. Penny, Frederick George Tinker, John Joseph Hogbin, Henry Cairns Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Tichfield, Major the Marquess of Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Toole, J. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Perry, S. F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Hood, Sir Joseph Pethick-Lawrence, F W. Turner-Samuels, M. Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) Philipson, Mabel Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Ponsonby, Arthur Viant, S. P. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Potts, John S. Waddington, R. Hunting field, Lord Raine, W. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen. Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove) Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Rawson, Alfred Cooper Warne, G. H. Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) Rees, Sir Beddoe Warrender, Sir Victor Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Remer, J. R. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Jankins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Rentoul, G. S. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Jephcott, A. R. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) John, William (Rhondda, West) Richards, R. Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Weir, L. M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, R. (Houghton- le-Spring) Wells, S. R. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) Ritson, J. Weston, John Wakefield Kennedy, T. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Westwood, J. Kindersley, Major G. M. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Kirkwood, D. Romeril, H. G. Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H. Lamb, J. Q. Ropner, Major L. Whiteley, W. Lane-Fox, George R. Rose, Frank H. Wignall, James Law, A. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby) Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington) Lawson, John James Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Leach, W. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Lee, F. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond) Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sandeman, A. Stewart Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Lord, Walter Greaves- Savery, S. S. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Lorimer, H. D. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wise, Sir Fredric Lumley, L. R. Seely, Rt. Hon. Maj.-Gen. J.E.B. (I. of W.) Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. Lunn, William Sexton, James Wragg, Herbert MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wright, W. MacDonald, R. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. M'Entee, V. L. Shepperson, E. W. Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick) Mackinder, W. Sherwood, George Henry McLean, Major A. Shinwell, Emanuel TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. J. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Robertson.
NOES. Ackroyd, T. R. Chapple, Dr. William A. Falconer, J. Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Finney, V. H. Alstead, R. Collins, Patrick (Walsall) Franklin, L. B. Ayles, W. H. Comyns-Carr, A. S. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Barclay, R. Noton Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gorman, William Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Darbishire, C. W. Gray, Frank (Oxford) Berkeley, Captain Reginald Davies, David (Montgomery) Groves, T. Birkett, W. N. Dickie, Captain J. P. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Black, J. W. Dickson, T. Harbison, Thomas James S. Bonwick, A. Dodds, S. R. Hardie, George D. Briant, Frank Dunn, J. Freeman Harney, E. A. Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Dunnico, H. Harris, John (Hackney, North) Brunner, Sir J. Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Harris, Percy A. Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) Spero, Dr. G. E. Hindie, F. Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Starmer, Sir Charles Hobhouse, A. L. Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees) Hodge, Lieut. -Col. J. P. (Preston) Mond, H. Stranger, Innes Harold Hogge, James Myles Mosley, Oswald Sunlight, J. Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) Muir, Ramsay (Rochdale) Tattersall, J. L. Hudson, J. H. Murrell, Frank Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Jewson, Dorothea Nichol, Robert Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay), Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) Owen, Major G. Thornton, Maxwell R. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Phillipps, Vivian Thurtle, E. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Pilkington, R. R. Turner, Ben Kay, Sir R. Newbald Pringle, W. M. R. Vivian, H. Kedward, R. M. Raffan, P. W. Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth) Keens, T. Raffety, F. W. Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Rathbone, Hugh R. White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Rea, W. Russell Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Lansbury, George Rendall, A. Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent. Sevenoaks) Laverack, F. J. Robertson, T. A. Willison, H. Linfield, F. C. Royle, C. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Livingstone, A. M. Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. Windsor, Walter Loverseed, J. F. Scrymgeour, E. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) McCrae, Sir George Scurr, John Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G. Maden, H. Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington) Marks, Sir George Croydon Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Simpson, J. Hope Mr. Hugh Seely and Mr. Harcourt Johnstone.
Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. Supply considered in Committee.
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That 100,500 Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea Service, together with 287 for the Marine Police, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, for the year ending on the 3l6t day of March, 1925."
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Ten Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.