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Commons Chamber

Volume 171: debated on Wednesday 19 March 1924

House of Commons

Wednesday, March 19, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Birkenhead Corporation (Ferries) Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Southern Railway Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Friday.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Watford Extension) Bill,

"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Watford," presented by Mr. WHEATLEY; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 77.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

China (Customs Tariff)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, with regard to the customs tariff in China, he will state which Powers have not ratified the Washington Treaty up to the present; and what are the causes for their abstaining from doing so?

The French Government have not yet ratified the Treaty. I understand that one of their main reasons for withholding ratification is a controversy with the Chinese Government as to whether the instalments of the French share of the Boxer indemnity should be paid on the basis of gold or paper francs. I have no information respecting the attitude of the Belgian Government, but the other parties to the Treaty have all either sent their ratifications to Washington or indicated their intention to ratify.

Are we doing anything at all to expedite the ratification of the Treaty—using our good offices, or in any other way?

League of Nations

Russian Refugees

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what provision, if any, has been made in the League of Nations' budget for the ensuing year for the continuance of the work initiated by Dr. Nansen, as High Commissioner of the League, for the settlement of Russian refugees; and whether the British representative on the League Council will be instructed to press for the continued allocation to the High Commissioner of the sums necessary for this purpose?

The sum of 153,000 gold francs has been included in the 1924 budget of the League of Nations for this purpose; the second part of the question does not therefore arise.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether this will involve any charge on the British Treasury?

Memel

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the dispute with regard to Memel has now been settled by the League of Nations; how long the matter had been in the hands of the Conference of Ambassadors; when action regarding it was first taken by the League of Nations; and on what date the settlement was finally effected?

The Convention regarding Memel prepared by the League of Nations was signed on the 16th instant by representatives of His Majesty's Government and of the Lithuanian Government; it awaits the signature of France, Italy, and Japan. The matter was in the hands of the Conference of Ambassadors from the time of the ratification of the Treaty of Versailles; it was referred to the League of Nations on the 25th September, 1923.

In view of the great success of this action, is it the policy of the Government to advocate the transference of other outstanding questions to the League?

Armaments Committee

asked the Prime Minister whether the British members of the League of Nations Permanent Advisory Committee on Armaments are authorised to express the views of the British Government; and, if so, whether this is done in consultation with the Foreign Office?

The British members of the Committee represent the Admiralty, War Office and Air Ministry, and express the views of those Departments respectively. The Committee deals with technical matters, and consultation with the Foreign Office is not always required, but takes place when necessary.

Mandate Commission

asked the Prime Minister when the next meeting of the Permanent Mandate Commission of the League of Nations is fixed to take place at Geneva; and whether any of the Annual Reports for the year 1923, due from the British Government to the League, will be submitted to the League by that date?

So far as I am aware no definite date has been fixed, but the Council approved in December a proposal that the Commission should meet before the end of June. Every effort will be made to present the Reports due from His Majesty's Government before then, but I cannot give any definite undertaking in respect of any particular Report.

Peace Treaties

German Prisoners (Occupied Territory)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any international instrument which permits the removal outside German territory of German prisoners condemned by Allied military courts in German occupied territory for offences against the civil law?

No international instrument which is recognised by His Majesty's Government provides in terms, so far as I am aware, for the removal outside German territory of German citizens condemned by Allied military tribunals, but an Ordinance was enacted by the High Commission which; reserved a right for the Rhineland High Commission to prescribe the prison in which sentences shall be served. German citizens are amenable to Allied military tribunals for all offences against the persons or property of the armed forces of the Allies, and for offences against the Ordinances of the High Commission, but not for offences against German civil law.

Are any such prisoners actually interned outside German territory now?

Revision

asked the Prime Minister whether the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a complete revision of the Peace Treaties was a necessary condition for the pacification of Europe and for the re-establishment of its economic prosperity was made with the authority of the Government?

His Majesty's Government, with all its very exceptional powers, could have given authority for no statement made before it existed.

Do not the Government adhere to the statement made, previously to coming into office, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Ruhr Occupation

asked the Prime Minister what proportion of the revenue now being received by France from the Ruhr will be paid to this country?

The French and Belgian Governments have not made any report to the Reparation Commission either upon the operations undertaken by them in the Ruhr or as to the financial results of those operations. I understand that the French and Belgian Governments, in accordance with their view that the operations in question are legitimate measures for collection of the sums due from Germany under the Treaty of Versailles, hold themselves accountable for all amounts so collected, less the cost of collection, to the general account of the Allied Powers. As the hon. Member is aware, His Majesty's Government is under the Treaty and the various inter-Allied agreements entitled to 22 per cent. of such sums, subject to the operation of the various priorities provided by the Treaty and these inter-Allied agreements. The contention of the French and Belgian Governments as to the legitimacy of the measures taken and their right to deduct the cost of these measures from the value of German assets and revenues of which they have taken possession are not admitted by His Majesty's Government, and pending full consideration of the whole question, by the Reparation Commission and the parties to the Treaty themselves no definite settlement can be arrived at.

I should like notice of that question. That was not in my time. If there has been a return made, it has not been brought to my attention.

What have been the net proceeds of the occupation of the Ruhr since the French occupation?

I can only refer my hon. and gallant Friend to my answer that there has not been any report made.

Questions

Abyssinian-Sudan Frontier

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the frontiers between Abyssinia and the Sudan have never been ratified, and that this condition of affairs leads to a good deal of administrative difficulty; and what steps His Majesty's Government proposes to take in order to secure early ratification?

The Abyssinian-Sudan frontier has been defined in accordance with the Anglo-Abyssinian Treaty of the 15th May, 1902, which was laid before Parliament (Command Paper 1370), but the southern portion from the junction of the Sobat and Pibor to Lake Rudolf has only been provisionally accepted by Abyssinia, and the adjacent country remains partly unexplored. These circumstances combined with the inability of the central Abyssinian Government to exercise control over their frontier tribes render improbable any early delimitation of the frontier.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that when the Abyssinian delegates applied for admission to the League last September this point was specifically put to them—whether or not they did control all the territories which were recognised as Abyssinian territories, including distant parts, and they gave the most absolute assurance that they did. Will the hon. Gentleman, therefore, consider bringing his answer to the notice of the League?

Russia (British Subjects' Rights)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in what essential respects the rights and privileges accorded to British subjects in Russia differ from those accorded to Russian subjects in this country?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has made, or proposes making, any representations to the Soviet Government of Russia to secure for British subjects in Russia privileges similar to those accorded to Russian subjects by His Majesty's Government?

I will answer these questions together. The privileges enjoyed in this country and in Russia by each other's nationals are at present governed by the Anglo-Russian trade agreement, to which I would refer the hon. and gallant Member. It will be one of the tasks of the forthcoming Con- ference to endeavour to establish on a satisfactory basis the definite regime in either country of nationals of the other party.

Will the hon. Gentleman indicate whether the trade agreement provides for differentiation as regards the treatment of British subjects in Russia and that of Russian subjects in this country?

I must refer the noble Lord to the terms of the agreement and he can see for himself.

Have British subjects any rights whatever in Russia at the present time?

Does the hon. Gentleman suggest, or admit, that there is less freedom under the Soviet Government in Russia than there is in this country?

British Legation, Athens (Bomb Outrage)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information with regard to the bomb outrage on the British Legation at Athens: and what steps have been taken by His Majesty's Government to obtain an apology?

The information which has reached His Majesty's Government is substantially the same as has appeared in the Press. The Greek Prime Minister, together with several members of his Cabinet, and the Regent, called personally at the Legation within a short time of the explosion and tendered official expressions of concern and regret. A similar apology has been received from the Greek Chargé d'Affaires in London His Majesty's Government are satisfied that the Greek Government were in no way responsible for the outrage, and they have shown commendable activity and promptness in doing everything within their power to arrest the culprits.

Royal Navy

Singapore Base (Government Decision)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state what are the total expenditure and unescapable commitments on the Singapore naval base up to date; whether the question of discontinuing the work or not will be left to the free decision of the House; if so, will the Reports of the naval experts who have advised upon the matter be circulated for the information of Members; and, if the Government close down the work without reference to Parliament, will such steps be taken as will make it necessary for the work to be started entirely afresh in the event of their successors reversing this decision?

The total expenditure incurred to date is about £70,000. There will be a further sum not yet ascertained for closing down the scheme. The decision of His Majesty's Government is to be discussed by this House next Tuesday, but the Government Whips will be put on. The reply to the third part of the question is No. As regards the fourth part, the details as to the closing down of the work are now under consideration.

Is the site for the aerodrome offered by the Malay States included in the figures just given?

Is it not the case that the advice of the Government's naval experts on the strategic side is not disputed, and that the Government make their decision on other grounds?

That was specifically stated by the Prime Minister last night. It is not disputed.

Long Service and Good Conduct Medal

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether a man who formerly served in the Royal Navy as a continuous service man, and subsequently volunteered and was placed in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and continued to serve until October, 1919, is entitled to the long service and good conduct medal and gratuity, as awarded to the Royal Fleet Reserve by the Jerram Commission?

The reply is in the negative. Royal Naval Volunteer Reservists may, however, earn a good conduct medal (without a gratuity) under the special regulations of that Reserve.

Cadets (Fees)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what fees, if any, are charged for cadets at Dartmouth under training for the Royal Navy?

In ordinary cases parents or guardians of cadets (other than. King's Cadets) are required to pay a yearly contribution of £150 towards the cost of training in the college, but 10 per cent of the entries may be admitted at the reduced rate of £40 a year, 10 per cent. at the rate of £70 a year, and 10 per cent. at the rate of £100 a year. In addition to the foregoing sums, the parent or guardian is charged with the cost of outfit and the personal expenses incurred by the cadet for washing, repairing boots and clothes, pocket-money, instruments, school books, sports, etc.

Is it the policy of the Board of Admiralty further to reduce or to abolish these fees, so as to open the training to suitable boys of all classes?

I require notice of that question. I may say that there are special arrangements made for the sons of officers and men.

Malta (Dock Facilities)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is intended to increase the size of any of the graving docks at Malta, or to construct new docks, so as to be able to dock the latest large British warships; whether it is proposed to provide dock accommodation for these ships in India: and when the ex-German floating dock allocated to Malta will be lengthened and ready to take the largest warships?

The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the negative. It is anticipated that the ex-German floating dock allocated to Malta will be ready to take the largest warship towards the end of 1925.

Air Planes (Statistics)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the total number of air planes attached to the British, Japanese and American Navies, respectively; and what future strength is provided for?

At the present time there are 84 machines allocated to the British Navy, exclusive of reserve machines. Provision has been made to increase this number to 112 during the financial year 1924–25. The Japanese Navy is understood to possess 50 service' machines, exclusive of reserve and training machines and, according to Press reports, this number is to be increased to 130 service machines by 31st March, 1929. The United States Navy is understood to possess 260 service machines, exclusive of reserve and training machines and, according to latest information, this number is to be increased to approximately 400 by the middle of 1925. I should add that Japanese and United States figures include certain aircraft available for coast patrol, which can, however, be used with the fleet at the will of the respective Admiralties.

In view of these figures, does the hon. Gentleman consider that we are at a one-power standard in the air, as far as the Navy is concerned?

Can the hon. Gentleman give us comparative figures as to the dates on which the aeroplanes attached to the respective Navies were constructed?

Depots and Factories

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will see that steps are taken to transform depots and factories under his Department not required for naval purposes to the purposes of commerce and industry, so as to avoid risk of unemployment to the employés as the result of any change of national policy?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Prime Minister's reply of the 7th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. B. Turner), and to my reply of the 27th February to the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha).

Invention Awards

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether awards have been made in connection with depth charges, blisters, phantom pilot or tell-tale cable, submarine destroyer, paravane devices, respectively, used during 1914–18; and, if so, whether claims antedating those of the successful claimants was considered?

Awards have been made by the Royal Commission in connection with inventions of depth charges and paravane devices. No award has been made for "blisters," and a claim in regard to leader gear is pending. In the consideration of the successful claims, any claims to have antedated such inventions have been considered. I am not aware what exactly is meant by "submarine destroyer."

Engine-Room Artificers (Promotion)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether all the engine-room artificers passed and recommended for warrant rank, as published in A.F.O. 1089/1923, have been promoted to the rank of warrant engineer; and, if not, why any particular rating has not been promoted?

All the ratings in question were promoted with the exception of one, who was physically unfit for warrant rank, and was subsequently invalided.

Wireless Ratings (Receiving Licences)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will consider the advisability of approaching the Postmaster-General with the view to having a percentage of the licence remitted in the case of ex-royal naval wireless ratings belonging to the Royal Naval Reserve, and who have wireless sets installed in their own houses, with a view to their maintaining their efficiency in Morse signalling and other Fleet work?

I presume the hon. Member refers to the Royal Fleet Reserve. I am afraid the proposal is not one which the Admiralty could recommend.

Questions

Admiralty (Pensioned Officers)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the number of officers, previously pensioned and retired, who are now employed in the Admiralty?

26 pensioned and retired officers are now employed at the Admiralty, of whom eight only draw retired pay in addition to the appropriate emoluments of their respective positions.

Is it not possible to find men who are not in receipt of pensions to do the work which these gentlemen are doing?

I understand that these gentlemen, for the most part, have special qualifications.

Under what Order do these retired Navy officers draw retired pay as well as pensions?

Ex-Service Men

Naval Armaments Depot, Lodge Hill

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that approximately 400 ex service men employed as casual labourers at the Royal Naval Armaments Depot, Lodge Hill, Kent, have received notice that their employment will end and that they will be discharged at noon on 22nd March; and will any steps be taken to provide more work for the men concerned, in view of the fact that there are no other facilities for their employment in the neighbourhood, which already has an unemployed population above the average?

The number of men affected at Lodge Hill is 250. These men were engaged on the express understanding that their employment would be terminated towards the end of the present month, and I regret that it is not possible to continue their employment in Admiralty service.

Unemployment Relief Works

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give a definite assurance that one of the conditions preceding the approval of a grant of money to a municipality or other body for the purposes of unemployment relief work shall be that 75 per cent. of the total number of men employed at any time upon the work in question shall be ex-service men in all cases where that percentage of ex-service men is available in the district concerned?

I have already announced that the condition that 75 per cent. of the men taken on for relief works shall be ex-service men will be continued. In a few cases where the number of ex-service men available is not sufficient, it has been the practice slightly to reduce this percentage.

Benefit (Qualifying Contributions)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that ex-service men who have been undergoing treatment in the various Ministry of Pensions hospitals are, upon discharge and upon reverting to their flat-rate pensions, debarred from benefit at the Employment Exchanges, due to the fact that they are unable to produce cards sufficiently stamped; and will he take such steps as will enable these men to obtain full benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act irrespective of the qualifying number of contributions?

The unemployment insurance scheme as introduced in 1911, and as extended in 1920, is a contributory one, and I am unable, therefore, to do what the hon. Member suggests, namely, pay benefit irrespective of the qualifying number of contributions. I can assure him, however, that within the limits laid down by Statute, the most favourable treatment possible is given to disabled ex-service men.

Mental Cases

asked the Minister of Health how many ex-service men and women are in pauper lunatic asylums and how many in private lunatic asylums which are run for profit; how does their care and treatment differ from that of pauper patients; and are they separately housed?

As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer: .

In regard to the first part of the question, I am not certain what patients are intended to be covered by the term "ex-service men and women," but if the information desired is as to the number of patients for whom the Ministry of Pensions make payment, and the institutions in which they are, I will communicate with my right hon. Friend with a view to seeing whether that information can be supplied.

In regard to the second part of the question, the patients for whom the Minister of Pensions makes payment receive a weekly allowance as pocket money and are allowed certain other privileges.

As to the last part of the question, the care, treatment and housing of the patients in public mental hospitals is determined by the medical experts according to the mental and bodily needs of the patient. There is no distinction in this general principle between the private patient and the rate-supported patient.

Questions

Coastguard Life Insurance Fund

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, when the old coastguard service was abolished, an agreement was come to also to abolish the Coastguard Life Insurance Fund; and, if so, what proceedings are being taken as to the realisation and distribution of such fund?

No decision has yet been taken to abolish the Coastguard Life Insurance Fund, but in view of the changed conditions resulting from the abolition of the old coastguard service the views of the members as to the future of the fund are being ascertained. The information on which to base a decision is not yet complete.

Unemployment

Local Authorities (Financial Assistance)

asked the Minister of Labour what is the nett amount of additional financial assistance, if any, given to local authorities by the abolition of the gap period over and above what they would have received under any circumstances during the current insurance year; and how is the amount arrived at?

The abolition of the three weeks "gap" is estimated to result in the payment of an additional sum of about half-a-million pounds in unemployment benefit in the period up to October next. I am afraid, however, I cannot give any estimate of the financial assistance thereby given to local authorities, if by that the hon. Member means, as I assume he does, the sum by which the amount of Poor Law relief which would otherwise have been paid has been reduced owing to the abolition of the "gap."

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how the mere abolition of the gap has increased the benefit, when only 26 weeks' benefit is paid in the insurance year?

Mercantile Marine Apprentices (Insurance)

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that under the National Health Insurance Act master and apprentice in the mercantile marine are required to contribute to the Unemployment Insurance Fund; that the apprentice's remuneration, if any, is paid not on a voyage-to-voyage basis as in the case of a seaman, but on either a yearly basis or on an agreement covering his full term of apprenticeship; and that it follows, under any circumstances, that an apprentice can never be out of employment within the meaning of the Act, nor can he while on indentures! benefit by the contributions made by him, or on his behalf, to the Unemployment Insurance Fund; and whether he intends to take any steps to alter this arrangement?

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that unemployment insurance is payable by or for sea-going apprentices even although the pay of such apprentices is on a yearly basis, or under agreements covering the full term of apprenticeship; and, seeing that such apprentices can never be out of employment within the meaning of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, whether he will amend the law so as to exclude them from the category of insurable persons.

As the answer to these questions is somewhat long, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL EEPORT.

Following is the answer:

In common with persons employed under a contract of apprenticeship in other occupations, apprentices in the mercantile marine service are required to be insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts if they are in receipt of a money payment, but not otherwise. This is a statutory provision which I have no power under the existing Acts to vary. The decision to include apprentices who receive a money payment within the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Acts was taken after full consideration had been given to objections of the kind referred to, and I am not satisfied that sufficient grounds have been shown for any alteration of the law in this respect. I may add that, although indentured apprentices may not be liable to become unemployed during their period of apprenticeship, contributions paid in respect of them during that period remain standing to their credit and are available, subject to the statutory conditions, in the event of an application for unemployment benefit being subsequently made.

Uncovenanted Benefit

asked the Minister of Labour what will be the additional annual cost of the changes made under the confidential memorandum just issued by the Ministry revising the existing arrangements for the payment of unemployment allowances?

As has previously been announced, it is estimated that the relaxation of certain restrictions on the payment of uncovenanted benefit will result in the payment of further benefit out of the unemployment fund, in the period up to next October, to the extent of from £2,000,000 to £4,000,000.

Does that reply cover the whole of the uncovenanted benefits referred to in the confidential memorandum which has been broadcast?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will issue an Order to local employment committees requiring applicants for uncovenanted benefit to state their nationality; and whether he will issue monthly returns showing the number of aliens in receipt of such benefit, differentiating nationality, and the total amount of money paid to them?

Applicants for uncovenanted benefit are already required to state whether or not they are British subjects, and, if not, to state their nationality, figures for a past period based on these statements could not be compiled without excessive cost, owing to the need for examining many millions of documents in order to pick out the few relating to aliens. A monthly return for the future could be obtained at less cost, but the cost would still be considerable In view of the need for confining expenditure to essential purposes and the fact that aliens in insurable employment pay contributions like anybody else, I feel that I should not be justified in incurring the expenditure unless, notwithstanding what I have said as to the cost, it is the general desire of the House that the return should be provided, in which case, I shall, of course, be prepared to publish such a return.

May I ask, in consideration of the machinery which the right hon. Gentleman has at his disposal, what would be the estimated cost of issuing these monthly returns?

Does the right hon Gentleman not think it would be advisable that we should have this information?

I think my answers as to what I think have been precise enough. If representations are made by responsible Members of either party, I am prepared to carry out the work.

I asked what would be the estimated cost of a monthly return, and the right hon. Gentleman has only given the estimated cost of the first return.

The estimated cost of the first collection of information is £2,000. I cannot give an estimate as to what the further cost would be.

May I ask whether it is not a fact that for uncovenanted benefit these aliens have made no contribution whatever?

The alien is under the Act of the last Government, and he contributes exactly like anybody else, and has the same right so far as covenanted benefits are concerned. In regard to uncovenanted benefit, he has previously beer refused the right to it, but he has beer, submitted to all the terms of contribution that every other person has been under.

Richborough

asked the Minister of Labour whether, when considering plans for providing work for the unemployed, he will make an inquiry into making Richborough into a fit harbour to provide an outlet to the constantly increasing output of Kent coal?

I am advised that the Disposal and Liquidation Commission have recently asked a civil engineer with great experience in port management to examine and advise as to the future of the Port of Richborough. When the engineer's report is received the matter will be carefully considered.

Exchange Managers (Remuneration)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the remuneration paid in some cases to managers of branch employment offices in Scotland; that the branch manager at Newton Stewart received as his total remuneration for the six months ended June last the sum of £114 5s. 3d.; that he had to pay two assistants out of that amount; and that the hours worked were from 50 to 56 per week; and whether he will consider taking the necessary steps to bring such branch managers within the scope of any National Minimum Wage Bill?

The remuneration of branch managers is based on the volume of work at their offices. That paid to the Newton Stewart branch manager for the six months ended 31st May last was about £25 in excess of the sum mentioned in the question. Inquiry has already been made into the adequacy of this remuneration, but if the hon. and gallant Member thinks there are any facts which have not been fully considered, I shall be glad to have the matter looked into again.

Since the branch managers are paid in proportion to the amount of business done, is it not to their advantage to keep as many men on the unemployed register as possible?

This is one of the jobs that can fairly be called on the border line, and, as I said, if the hon. and gallant Member has any further facts that he desires to communicate or further considerations he would wish to have investigated, I am willing to do what I can in order to get to the bottom of the question.

Exchanges (Accommodation)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that unemployed men and women at Employment Exchanges often have to wait in the open in all weathers as long as two hours at a stretch to sign the register or to draw benefit; that most of these unfortunate people are ill-clad and ill-nourished, so much so that it entails great danger to their health; and whether he will give instructions that more humane arrangements must be made at the various Employment Exchanges in the interests of the health of the million men and women unemployed?

As the reply is somewhat long, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

Whenever large numbers of applicants have to be dealt with at any Exchange, specified times of attendance are allotted to individual applicants, and if the applicants come when they are asked to do so there need be no long waiting. If they come earlier, as they sometimes do, they lengthen their period of waiting by their own action. It sometimes happens that a large number of workpeople are suddenly thrown out of work in a particular area and make their claims at the same time. In such circumstances it is not always possible to avoid some period of waiting, but every effort is made to reduce this to a minimum.

Benefit

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that large numbers of unemployed will begin to run out of benefit during April, whether he proposes to introduce a short Bill to extend the period of benefit provided by the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1923?

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, owing to the fact that insured persons begin to run out of benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts by the middle of next month, a large additional burden will be thrown on to Poor Law guardians throughout the country; and what steps, if any, the Government propose to take to relieve local authorities of this charge by 16th April, the date when the unemployment benefit begins to be exhausted?

I am aware of the facts mentioned, and will certainly introduce a short Bill, if I find it impossible to get through the House in time the larger Bill I am having prepared.

In view of the fact that the Prime Minister said that no legislation would be taken before 31st March, does he expect to get this Bill before 16th April, and, if not, is he aware it will throw a very heavy cost on the local authorities?

I have already stated that if it is impossible to get the larger Bill through, I shall certainly introduce a short Bill to deal with the subject.

But will the right hon. Gentleman get the Bill through before 16th April, when the heavy cost will come on the local authorities?

asked the Minister of Labour if he will give instructions to the local employment committees to see that, where parties making application for unemployment benefit are refused this on the plea that the applicant is not genuinely looking for work, and where, on rehearing, this is overturned and benefit allowed, the benefit is made retrospective to the first day of payment following on the first application?

I do not think it would be right to lay down a hard-and-fast rule on this point. The local employment committees already have discretion to recommend that benefit should be ante-dated if they thought proper to do so in exceptional cases.

Statistics

asked the Minister of Labour what were the numbers on the registers of the Employment Exchanges during each of the last three weeks?

The numbers on the registers of the Employment Exchanges were as follow:

The following is the statement referred to:

Prior to the present week the unemployment returns published weekly by the Ministry of Labour have included separate figures for (a) persons on the live registers of the Employment Exchanges and (b) persons working systematic short-time and drawing benefit for intervals of unemployment. The persons recorded as working systematic short-time include only those whose arrangements for short-time working are such that it is known precisely in advance on what days work will be available. The figures under this head, therefore, cover only a small proportion of the total number of the persons working short-time and drawing benefit for intervals of unemployment; in fact, during the past six months the figure in the weekly return has varied between 47,833 and 75,361.

The differentiation of persons working "systematic short-time" is not of any considerable value in itself, and actually tends to be misleading, because it may give rise to the erroneous impression that the figure under this head includes all persons working short-time and drawing benefit. A much more important distinction would be that between persons "wholly unemployed" and those "working short-time"; in many cases, however, elaborate investigation would be necessary in order to decide into which of these two groups particular individuals should be placed, and on this account it is thought to be impracticable to compile weekly statistics on this basis.

After careful consideration, it has been decided to publish in the weekly returns in the present and future weeks a single set of figures, compiled by adding to the figure which on the old basis would have been given under head (a) a figure representing so many of the persons working systematic short-time as are not at work at the date of the return. The resulting total will be greater than the figure which on the old basis would have been given under head (a) alone, but less than the sum of those given under head (a) and (b) .

The weekly return will include comparative figures on the new basis for previous weeks.

Insurance Fund

asked the Minister of Labour the total amount of the Unemployment Insurance Fund for last year; what part of the same was paid by employers, employés, and the Government; and the total sum paid out during the year in unemployment pay out of this Fund?

I will, if I may, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving these figures for the insurance year ended 1st July, 1923.

Following is the statement referred to:

The income of the Unemployment Fund for the insurance year ended 1st July, 1923, was £46,205,000 as follows:

£

Contributions by Employers

17,664,000

Contributions by Employés

15,897,000

Contributions by Exchequer

12,166,000

Contributions by Service

Departments

444,000

Miscellaneous Receipts

34,000

Total

£46,205,000

Will the right hon. Gentleman also say what is the benefit experience and whether or not contributions can be reduced?

Government Policy

asked the Prime Minister when he intends to make a statement to the House as to the precise nature of the Government's remedy for unemployment?

asked the Prime Minister what is the Government's remedy for unemployment; and whether it involves new legislation?

The hon. Members seem to be under some misapprehension regarding unemployment in our present social conditions when they refer to "a remedy" for it. The Government are attacking it from many sides and aspects, and have already made some substantial contributions to its treatment. More will follow.

Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister himself shortly before the Election, in writing, stated that the Socialist party—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Labour party!"]—of which he was the leader, alone had a positive remedy for unemployment; and does he not think it is desirable, having regard to the fact that that party alone has a remedy, that the House of Commons should be informed what that remedy is?

Questions

Sub-Postmasters (Hours of Duty)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, in a large number of towns throughout the United Kingdom, salaried sub-postmasters are compelled to work a full duty of 48 hours per week, in addition to maintaining the night telephone service throughout the night; that this nightwork involves an addition of, approximately, 12 hours per week actual work, plus responsibility for the working of the exchange for another 60 hours; and whether he will make an inquiry into these facts, with a view to including these officers within the scope of the proposed legislation to ratify the 48-hour week?

The conditions of employment of these sub-postmasters were dealt with in a reply given by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General to the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Middleton) on the 19th February. I have already announced to the House that the legislation which I propose to introduce to regulate the hours of work will be designed to carry out the provisions of the Washington Hours Convention, and will, therefore, apply only to industrial undertakings.

White Lead (Washington Convention)

asked the Minister of Labour whether his predecessor at the Ministry in 1921 promised, on behalf of the British Government, that effect should be given to the compromise agreed upon at the Washington International Labour Conference, re the use of white lead for interior painting; and, if so, will he facilitate an amending Bill to honour the pledge given?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 27th February to the Noble Lord the Member for Nottingham, South (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck).

Industrial Disputes

Umpires' Awards

asked the Minister of Labour whether, seeing that in the boot industry compliance with the awards of the Umpire in all matters referred to him under the national agreement has been compulsory, and that a penalty has been attached for failure to carry out these awards up to an amount of £500, which is the sum deposited by each side, he will consider the extension of such an arrangement to other industries?

It is a standing agreement between the parties in the boot and shoe trade that decisions or awards shall be accepted, and I would suggest that the absence of disputes in this trade is mainly due to the existence of agreed joint machinery and to the desire of both sides to carry out decisions reached through that machinery. I entirely agree that such standing joint voluntary machinery is of great value in the prevention of stoppages of work, but the particular arrangement to be made in each industry is a matter for the employers 'and workers' organisations concerned.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on several occasions the deposit of £500 has been, to a more or less extent, forfeited by one side or the other?

Agreements (Registration)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of registering all agreements made between employers and trade

OFFICIAL REPORTS on the working of the Canadian Industrial Disputes Investigation Act and its Amendments in the possession of the Ministry of Labour.

Title or Source.

Date.

I. British or Overseas Dominions, etc. Reports ..

Great Britain

Report to the Board of Trade on the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act of Canada, 1907, by Sir George Askwith, K.C.B., K.C.

1912 (Cd. 6603).

Canada

Reports of the Canadian Department of Labour (each containing a section or appendix relating to the working of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act during the year).

1909, 1910, 1911, 1912,1913,1914, 1915,1916,1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette (Contains articles summarising proceedings under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act for the periods ending 31st March, 1922, and 31st March, 1923.)(Contains articles summarising proceedings under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act for the periods ending 31st March, 1922, and 31st March, 1923.)

July, 1922, and August, 1923.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette . (Records a legal decision defining conditions under which a recommendation of a Board of Conciliation under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act may be made a rule of Court and enforceable under Section 62 of the Act.). (Records a legal decision defining conditions under which a recommendation of a Board of Conciliation under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act may be made a rule of Court and enforceable under Section 62 of the Act.)

May, 1922.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette . (States that at the Annual Convention of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada a resolution was passed asking for an investigation into the Act in view of certain employers having challenged its constitutionality.). (States that at the Annual Convention of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada a resolution was passed asking for an investigation into the Act in view of certain employers having challenged its constitutionality.)

September, 1922.

unions, and whether the Government are prepared to enforce the honourable observance of such contracts by both parties?

In view of the fact that agreements between employers' and workers' organisations are, as a rule, honourably observed by both sides, I see no reason for adopting the policy suggested by the hon. Member

Enforced Publicity

asked the Minister of Labour what Reports are in the possession of His Majesty's Government regarding the working of the system of enforced publicity in certain industrial disputes in Canada; what is the date of such Reports; and whether he will issue Papers giving the latest information on this subject?

I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of official publications concerning the working of this Act In the circumstances, it does not appear to be necessary to lay further Papers before the House.

Following is the list referred to:

Title or Source.

Date.

I. British or Overseas Dominions, etc., Reports -cont.-cont.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette . (Reports discussions in Canadian House of Commons and Senate with regard to proposed amendments to the Act.). (Reports discussions in Canadian House of Commons and Senate with regard to proposed amendments to the Act.)

July, 1923.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette . (Records the passing of a judgment by a Judge of the Supreme Court denying the constitutionality of the Act.). (Records the passing of a judgment by a Judge of the Supreme Court denying the constitutionality of the Act.)

September, 1923. October, 1923.

Canada

Canadian Labour Gazette. (Reports the judgment of another Judge conflicting with that of the previous Judge and referring the case to in appellate division of the High Court for decision.)(Reports the judgment of another Judge conflicting with that of the previous Judge and referring the case to in appellate division of the High Court for decision.)

December, 1923.

India

Bulletins of Indian Industries and Labour. No. 23. (Contains a chapter describing the Canadian Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 1907, and its working.) No. 23. (Contains a chapter describing the Canadian Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 1907, and its working.)

1922.

II. Foreign Reports ..

United States

Bulletin of United States Bureau of Labour Statistics . (Report on operation of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act of Canada, by Benjamin M. Squires.). (Report on operation of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act of Canada, by Benjamin M. Squires.)

July, 1918.

Industrial Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the general demand for improved wages in several leading industries and the fact that the good offices of the Government are not sought before the struggle has entered into its most dangerous stage, he will consider the advisability of calling an industrial conference in order to ascertain the ability of the trade most closely affected to pay such advances, to endeavour to find an effective remedy for the injurious effects on trade of the recurring threats of strikes and lockouts, and to bring about such reorganisation of labour as will minimise the effects of the repudiation of agreements when the majority of the organised men have authorised their leaders to sign such agreements on their behalf?

This Government interests itself in these disputes when they have reached points that seem to make action desirable and effective. Beyond that, I can add nothing to what I have already said in reply to questions on this subject.

Courts of Inquiry

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of publishing, when any industrial dispute is threatened, a Gov- ernmental statement giving an official and reliable resume of the points at issue so that the public can be well informed on the subject?

I have been asked to reply. Under Part II of the Industrial Courts Act the Minister of Labour may, if he thinks fit, appoint a Court of Inquiry for the purpose of providing Parliament and the public with an independent statement of the facts relating to a dispute whether a dispute exists or is apprehended. I do not think it is necessary to seek the extension of these powers.

Questions

National Minimum Wage

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in order to establish a national minimum wage for each industry, which cannot be secured in cases of disagreement between employers and employed without compulsory arbitration and an agreed umpire, he will set up a committee to consider the subject, dealing at the same time with the question involved of overtime and hours of labour?

I have nothing to add to the statement which I made on this matter upon the Motion moved in the House of Commons by the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Compton) or the 4th March.

Trade Boards

Grocery and Provision Trade

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the objections of grocers throughout the country to the Grocery and Provision Trade Board and the recommendations of the Cave Committee as to autonomous district boards being set up, and the effect of national scales of wages in this trade upon the cost of living, he will follow the precedents set up by his immediate predecessors and delay the meetings of this board until a consolidating and amended Measure of the Trade Boards Act be passed?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 12th March to the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Clarry).

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the scale of wage which might be suitable for London will often cause great hardship in the country districts?

Drapery Trade

asked the Minister of Labour if it is contemplated setting up a Trade Board for the drapery trade; and, if so, will he undertake to see that Scottish cases will be dealt with by a separate Board sitting in Scotland?

I have received representations in regard to the application of the Trade Boards Acts to the drapery trade, and I am at present considering what further steps should be taken to examine the subject. Should it be decided to apply the Acts, the question of a separate Board for Scotland would be carefully considered.

Questions

Aliens (Employment)

asked the Minister of Labour how many permits under the Alien Order, 1920, were issued to employers during 1923 giving permission to aliens to enter into engagements as waiters in the United Kingdom; and whether any special directions as to time limit or otherwise are laid down by him or by the immigration officer in connection with such permits?

As the reply is somewhat long, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

During 1923, 42 permits under the Aliens Order were issued to employers in Great Britain in respect of alien waiters. Save in one case, the permits were conditional upon the employer sending a British subject abroad for employment, and were valid for a limited period, generally six months, subject to extension on request to 12 months if the British subject remains abroad for so long. The one case in which these conditions were not imposed was that of an alien who had been previously resident in Great Britain for many years, and had in this country a British-born wife and three young children. When a permit is expressed to be valid for a certain time, it is the invariable practice of the immigration officer to impose a corresponding time condition on giving the alien leave to land.

Mexico

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recognition of the Soviet Government by His Majesty's Government, he can see his way to recognise the Mexican Government; and whether, seeing that the Mexican Government owe certain definite liabilities towards British bondholders, he can treat and recognise them in exactly the same way as he has treated and recognised the Soviet Government and their liabilities?

I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Morel) on the 5th March.

In view of the similarities of the cases, why has discrimination been shown towards Russia?

Arbitral Tribunal (Enemy Debts)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that over 1,400 cases still remain to be settled by the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal, and that its second division only disposed of 56 cases between the 6th November and the 4th March last, he will give instructions for additional divisions to be at once set up in order that claims should be promptly dealt with and the hardships to claimants which are involved in the protracted delays avoided?

I nave been asked to reply. The position is being very carefully watched, and the question of setting up further divisions of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal has already been under consideration. I do not think, however, that the time has yet come when it is possible fully to gauge the results of the working of the second division, which only began its sittings last November. There has been a reduction in the number of outstanding eases, and it should be borne in mind that some of these cases may be disposed of by the application of decisions given in other cases involving the same principle without the need of a separate hearing by the tribunal.

Does the hon. Gentleman fully appreciate the great hardships inflicted by this delay upon so many people? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] Can he not seriously consider whether some means cannot be adopted whereby the hearing of the cases may be expedited?

Is the hon. Gentleman also aware of the number of seamen's cases that have been waiting for years, and that many seamen have received nothing?

I can say that the matter is fully appreciated, and that every effort will be made to expedite it.

Land Values (Taxation)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statement, made at Portsmouth on 16th March by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, that the land question was at the root of unemployment and that the land monopoly must be broken by the taxation of land values; whether this is the policy of His Majesty's Government; and, if so, whether immediate steps will be taken to deal with the land problem upon the lines indicated?

The statement referred to is in harmony with the declared views of the Members of the Government on this subject. The matter is not escaping the attention of the Government, but, as the hon. Member knows, items in a programme have to be taken in a progression and not in a block.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question is one of the few questions for which there is a absolute majority in this House, and that the Government, therefore, might be able to make progress with it?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the amount of Parliamentary time consumed on this question in 1909?

Imperial Economic Conference (Resolutions)

asked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to present the Resolutions upon the conclusions of the Imperial Economic Conference before the Budget statement?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday by the Lord Privy Seal in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Henley (Captain Terrell).

Does the Prime Minister realise that an answer which refers to the method of presentation is wholly irrelevant to this question, which seeks to discover the time of presentation?

I think that, if the hon. Gentleman will look at it he will find that the method and the time are mixed up, because it is impossible to devise a method without considering the Budgetary arrangements, which have to be determined very largely by the time. We are, as a matter of fact, exploring the whole question, because we intend to carry out the pledge that we gave to the House.

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman will put the whole of the Resolutions specifically to the House before the Budget, or incorporate them in the Budget so that they may be discussed?

The House has been very good in this matter, and I should like that there should be no misunderstanding. The first view one takes is that the Resolutions should first be put down and be discussed, but when you come to give a second thought to it, you discover that that means you are dealing with your Budget. Quite obviously, it would be improper to bring in any Resolutions dealing with the Budget before the Budget, but, again, it would be quite useless to bring them in after the Budget. Therefore, what we are doing at the moment is to go carefully into every single Resolution. I have already drafted a letter which I propose to send to the Leaders of the two parties, but I find considerable difficulty yet in making a definite proposal. As soon as I have made up my mind regarding the Resolutions, I propose to communicate with the Leaders of the two parties to see if they will agree to my proposal, so that the Resolutions may have the chance of being brought before the House in some shape or form.

Imperial Airship Scheme

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the vital importance to Australia and the disappointment caused by the postponement of the Imperial airship scheme, when he will make known the Government's decision on this matter?

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that an announcement has been made in the Press to the effect that the Government have definitely decided not to proceed with the Burney airship scheme, and that an official announcement to such effect will be made in the next few days; and will he state if there are any grounds for such a report; whether he is also aware that the Under-Secretary of State for Air on 11th March definitely stated, in this House, that the originator of this scheme would be given an opportunity of laying his views before the Committee, and that this opportunity has not yet been afforded?

I propose to answer these two questions together. There is no foundation for the statements that have appeared in the Press that the Government have definitely decided not to proceed with the Burney airship scheme. That scheme is at present being thoroughly examined, and, as stated by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Air on the 11th instant, an opportunity will be given to its originator to lay his views before the Committee before a final decision is taken by the Government.

Will there be an opportunity for this House to discuss the decision of the Government when it has been arrived at?

Yes, there will be several opportunities in connection with Supply, even if there are no other opportunities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that part of the disappointment is caused by the loss of employment through the delay, and will he expedite this decision?

I can assure the House that the examination is being expedited, but this Government refuses to make itself responsible for a scheme of such enormous magnitude as this without a thoroughly sound examination.

Housing

Small Houses

asked the Minister of Health how many small houses have been erected during the last three years with the approval and help of his Department; how many of these have been built for £500 each; what is the average cost of such erection and the average rent now being paid; and if he can give an estimate of how much the tax will be on the community by erecting, say, 100,000 houses at £500 each and letting them at an inclusive rent of 9s. per week?

As the answer is necessarily rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously intend to go on with the scheme for building houses to cost £500 each to be let at a rent of 9s. per week?

If it will satisfy the hon. Member I may tell him that I do intend to proceed with the housing scheme.

Following is the answer:

168,966 houses have been erected under the provisions of the Housing, Town Planning, Etc., Act, 1919. The average all-in cost is estimated at £1,040 per house and the average rent, excluding rates, for all types for England and Wales is 9s. 8d. per week or, if the Metropolitan area is excluded, 8s. 8d. per week. In addition, 39,184 were erected with the aid of the subsidy to private builders under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, 6,148 houses have been erected under the Housing, Etc., Act, 1923.

From the information available I cannot say how many houses have been erected for £500 each. The average price for houses included in contracts let by local authorities under the provisions of the Housing, Etc., Act, 1923, to the end of January, excluding cost of land development, etc., is £363 for non-parlour type and £418 for parlour type. It is estimated that the loss in respect of 100,000 houses costing £500 each and let at 9s. per week, including rates, might be approximately £1,500,000 per annum for 60 years, which, as the hon. Member will realise, would not necessarily all be borne by the State.

asked the Minister of Health whether any conditions will be imposed in respect of the houses to be built for £500 and to be let for 9s. per week so that they may be assessed for rates and taxes upon an economic rental value; and, if not, whether relief will be accorded to other properties, assessed on an economic rental value, to compensate the latter for paying their own share of rates and taxes plus a proportion of the share of rates and taxes on properties in the same tax area that are not assessed on an economic rental value?

I am unable to make any statement in anticipation of the submission to this House of the Government's proposals in respect of housing, and would suggest that the hon. Member should reserve his point.

Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate submitting these proposals before Easter?

I contemplate submitting them at an early date, but whether or not we shall manage to do it before Easter I am not sure.

Will the Minister of Health take into consideration the publication of his view of the aspects of this case before the Bill comes before the House?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise what must arise when this question comes before the House, and will he then give his view in a White Paper before it is put into force?

I will do everything possible to give all the available information to the House in the best possible manner.

also asked the Minister of Health the aggregate total monetary loss over a habitable life of 50 years per house in respect of the 200,000 houses to be built at a cost of £500 each, and to be let at 9s. a week (including rates), such total to allow for interest at 5 per cent per annum, sinking fund, provision for repairs and all outgoings, and rates at the present average for the whole country; and if he will state on whom it is proposed that the loss shall fall?

On the assumptions suggested, it is estimated that the annual loss might amount approximately to £3,500,000 per annum. As regards the last part of the question, I would suggest that the hon. Member should await the statement which I hope to be in a position to make shortly on the Government's general housing proposals.

Does not that mean that on the 200,000 houses there will be a loss of £200,000,000?

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by saying it would be transferred? To whom would it be transferred? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]

Building Trade

asked the Minister of Health whether, before he gives any undertaking to the building trade as to continuity of employment on the Government housing scheme, this House will be given an opportunity of considering and approving the terms of such undertaking?

Any undertaking which I may give must of course be subject to the approval of Parliament.

asked the Minister of Health if he can make any announcement as to the progress of the negotiations with the building trade on the question of the dilution of building labour?

Subsidy

asked the Minister of Health if he will place in the Library of the House of Commons, or in some other way make available for Members, copies of the circular or circulars he has issued or is issuing to local authorities amending paragraph 8 of the appendix of Circular 388a, dated 14th August, 1923, and requiring them to obtain his consent before granting subsidies to houses to be built at a greater density than 20 to the acre?

I have arranged for copies of the Circular in question to be placed in the Library of the House.

Agricultural Workers (Norfolk)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that in the county of Norfolk not more than 5 per cent. of the agricultural workers are able to live in houses erected by the county council on account of the rents being charged; and whether he can state what action it is proposed to take to enable the agricultural workers to take advantage of the council's housing scheme?

I have no knowledge of the houses erected by the county council to which the hon. Member refers. As regards houses built in agricultural parishes in the county by rural district councils under the Assisted Housing Scheme, the weekly rents exclusive of rates are generally 4s. to 5s.

Hull (Houses Sanctioned)

asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been sanctioned by his Department for the city of Hull under the 1923 Housing Act; for how many sanction has been refused, and on what grounds; how many of those sanctioned have been built, and how many are in course of erection; and whether he is considering further applications made to him, and, if so, for how many houses?

I have sanctioned proposals for the erection of 774 houses in the case to which the hon. Member refers. I have not refused sanction to any proposals put before me by the town council, although I have suggested that immediate building proposals should be limited to a number which can be built within the near future. Of the houses sanctioned 42 have been completed and 74 are in course of erection. I have no further application before me at the present time, and I hope that efforts will be directed to securing the rapid erection of the houses already approved.

Evictions

asked the Minister of Health whether, owing to conflicting decisions in the Courts regarding claims for house possession, he is prepared to introduce immediately a short Bill suspending temporarily the power of eviction from house property for which payment of rent continues to be made?

71 and 72.

asked the Minister of Health (1) the number of orders issued for possession of houses since August, 1923;

(2) the number of applications for orders for possession of houses since August, 1923?

I regret that information is not available as to either the number of applications made or the number of orders for possession issued since the date mentioned.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this information is vital to the Committee sitting upstairs?

I know it is very important, but I have not got the information to give to the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to get into touch with the Department of the Lord Chancellor or the Home Secretary and obtain this information?

I can assure the hon. Member that if this information can be obtained without extraordinary difficulty and expense, I will obtain it.

A and B Types of Houses

asked the Minister of Health what is the highest rent that has been approved for A and B types of houses respectively; and what the annual deficit has been estimated to be in each of the type of houses to which such rents apply?

The highest rents agreed for A and B types of houses included in schemes under the Housing and Town Planning Act, 1919, are 16s. and 21s. 6d. per week in respect of certain houses in the inner London area. The approximate annual deficits on the houses are £40 and £55 per annum respectively.

Leicestershire (Bural Districts)

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give the number of houses needed in rural and agricultural areas in the county of Leicester, or estimated by the D 89 Returns made under the Addison building scheme?

According to the returns in question, which were obtained from local authorities in 1919, 1,472 houses were stated to be required during the three subsequent years in the areas of rural district councils in the county of Leicester to meet unsatisfied demands.

Business Premises

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, owing to the housing shortage, tenants of business premises that are not protected by the Rents Restriction Acts may be compelled to vacate the premises where they have built up their businesses; that this compulsory vacation of business premises involves the partial or complete loss of business goodwill; and whether he will take the necessary legislative action to ensure the payment of adequate compensation in respect of goodwill to tenants so affected?

The question of compensation for loss of goodwill would require to be dealt with separately from the question of dwelling-houses, and is not one for my Department, and I should doubt whether it could be brought within the scope of an amendment of the Rent Restriction Acts.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that these questions with regard to town tenants should properly come under his Department, and is there any Department responsible at all?

This is not a question of town tenants as such, but a question of the loss of goodwill, which is quite a different matter.

Wellington, Somerset

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Wellington (Somerset) Urban District Council has prepared a housing scheme which it is anxious to commence; that it is restrained from building by ignorance of the terms of the Government scheme now under contemplation; and whether he will agree that the council may begin operations on the understanding that any advantages of the Government scheme will be applied to those operations, irrespective of whether they are commenced before or after its introduction?

The urban district council's scheme for the erection of 26 houses under the terms of the Housing, etc., Act, 1923, was approved by me on the 14th December last, and I understand that tenders for the houses have been provisionally accepted. So far as my Department is concerned, there is nothing to prevent the Council from proceeding with the scheme without delay. As regards the last part of the question, I cannot give any undertaking in anticipation of what may be the decision of the House.

Is not the right Eon. Gentleman aware that many housing schemes are suspended in the hope of obtaining better terms, and will he not give an assurance that if better terms are conceded under his scheme, retrospective effect will be given in their case?

The information at my disposal indicates that building schemes are going on in the ordinary way and there is no great delay.

Are those building schemes which are going on due to the operation of the Act of 1923?

Questions

Poor Law Relief, Poplar

asked the Minister of Health whether he is taking any steps to ascertain whether the Poplar Board of Guardians are now conforming to the provisions of the law in relation to the relief of the poor in Poplar?

asked the Minister of Health whether the Poplar Borough Council are involved in an appeal to the Court of Appeal to quash the district auditor's recent surcharges on the council; whether the Poplar Council are appealing to other councils to contribute towards the £3,000, the estimated costs of the appeal; and whether he has given his approval to any councils to enable them to make any such contributions?

As regards the first two parts of the question, I understand that the facts are as stated. With regard to the last part, I have received an appli- cation for sanction to a contribution towards the costs from one council and this is being considered.

Will the right hon. Gentleman first consult this House before he sanctions the payment of this money?

Public Bodies (Disqualification)

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the fact that if a councillor serving on a borough council built houses in the borough for which he is a councillor and received the subsidy he would be disqualified for being a councillor under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882; and will he take steps to remove this disqualification?

I am advised that the legal position is as stated, but I cannot undertake to introduce legislation for the purpose referred to.

Maternity Wards

asked the Minister of Health, in view of the prevalent overcrowding and the resulting increased need of maternity wards at hospitals, whether he will state what assistance the Government will give in regard to capital expenditure and annual outlay so as to enable welfare centres, borough councils, and hospital committees to prepare schemes at once?

I am ready to give sympathetic consideration to proposals for the provision of maternity beds in areas where there is need for additional accommodation, and to pay grants not exceeding 50 per cent. of approved capital and annual maintenance expenditure. The grant-in-aid of capital expenditure usually takes the form of an annual payment based on the sum required for interest on and repayment of capital within a fixed period.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to make his consideration prompt as well as sympathetic?

I shall have to await the applications. When I receive them I will deal promptly with them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman let the local medical officers of health know of this decision?

I have already intimated my readiness to adopt this course in a Circular to local authorities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that some form of popular control is set up in respect of grants to hospitals?

Lunacy Laws (Inquiry)

asked the Minister of Health whether, when appointing the Committee of Inquiry into the Lunacy Laws, he will include two women, one of the medical profession and one with special and practical knowledge of asylums visting committees?

The hon. Member's suggestion will be carefully considered, but I cannot at present give any undertaking on this point.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what kind of Committee this will be, and when it is likely to report?

Milk (Tubercle)

asked the Minister of Health whether he has received a series of resolutions with regard to the inadequate existing legislation with reference to tubercle-infected milk and the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915; and whether he can see his way to put in operation without further delay the Tuberculosis Order of 1914, and also to introduce legislation to ensure the prevention of tubercle-infected milk being distributed and infected animals being slaughtered?

The answer to the first part of the question is "yes." As regards the second part, I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture is considering the question of the re-introduction of the Tuberculosis Order. The hon. Member will be aware that the coming into operation of the Act of 1915 has been postponed by the Milk and Dairies (Amendment) Act, 1922, until the 1st September, 1925, and I do not think it will be practicable to introduce other legislation on this subject during the present Session.

Explosion, Fireworks Factory, Birmingham

( by Private Notice ) asked the Home Secretary whether he is in a position to make a statement on the cause of the explosion at the fireworks factory of Messrs. W. and J. Wilder, Warwick Road, Greet, Birmingham, which resulted in the death of one employé and injury to three others?

This unfortunate explosion happened yesterday, and the Chief Inspector of Explosives is making inquiries on the spot to-day. The Chief Inspector informs me that the explosion occurred when a small rocket was being charged. He cannot yet definitely state the cause, but he thinks the accident was probably due to the presence of some grit. I am happy to be able to say that the injured are going on well.

Will the hon. Gentleman instruct the Chief Inspector that every possible precaution be taken to prevent a recurrence of this deplorable accident?

Rent Restrictions Bill

Standing Committee

I desire, Mr. Speaker, to ask your guidance as to the powers and duties of this House in relation to the constitution of the Standing Committees. As you are aware, there is a Standing Committee at the present moment— Standing Committee A—which is considering the Rent Restrictions Bill. Yesterday, in this House, the Lord Privy Seal gave a definite undertaking on behalf of the Government that the Government would afford legal assistance to that Committee. This morning the Committee met, but the pledge of the Government was not fulfilled, because there was no Member present on behalf of the Government who had any legal experience; and I may say that the Attorney-General, who was previously put down as a Member of this Committee, retired. When the matter was raised in the Committee this morning, it was pointed out that, under the rules of the Committee of Selection, it was not possible at that stage of the Committee's? proceedings to add the Attorney-General to the Committee. I have, since the meeting this morning, looked at the Standing Orders and Rules of the House, and I cannot find anywhere any Rule which prevents this House from adding a Member to any Standing Committee at any time. I have ascertained that the Committee of Selection have made a Rule on their own account, but I venture to put it to you, Sir, that that in no way binds this House or the Government. What I wish to ask you is, whether it will be possible for any Member of the House, or for the Government themselves, to put down on the Paper a Motion that the Attorney-General be added to this Committee, in order that the Government may fulfil the pledges that they have given? I venture to urge this as a matter of importance, inasmuch as the Bill itself is extremely complicated, and in order that the Government may fulfil their pledges.

On a point of Order. I pointed out to the hon. Member this morning that the Government gave no such pledge. It said that it would give legal advice when it thought it desirable.

Fortunately, I am not on Standing Committee A, and I do not propose to enter into its proceedings. The Members of the Standing Committees are appointed by the Committee of Selection, and the Committee of Selection has been appointed by the House. The hon. Member has referred to a rule made by the Committee of Selection within its province. It can, if it think fit, suspend or rescind that rule, but the House entrusts to that Committee the selection of Standing Committees, and it is not for the House, by Resolution or otherwise, to interfere with the full discretion of the Committee of Selection.

Do I understand you, Sir, to rule that the Committee of Selection can take away by their rules the power from this House to add any Member to a Standing Committee?

Not at all. I say that this House never had that power, after it had given the duty to the Committee of Selection.

Might I ask you, Sir, whether, under the peculiar circumstances of this case, you think it would be competent for the Standing Committee in question, if it found itself in difficulties, to report to the House that, as at present constituted, it did not see its way to deal with the Bill?

I do not propose to lay down rules for, or even advise, a Standing Committee. It is for them to conduct their own business.

Would it not be possible, if the Standing Committee itself asks that someone may be added or substituted in the Committee, that that substitution or addition might be made?

I am not going to instruct the Chairman of a Standing Committee. It is his business to say what is within the competence of the Committee. The other matter, as I have said, lies wholly with the Committee of Selection.

If this were done, would it not be exceedingly dangerous for the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood)?

Member Sworn

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath:

Cahir Healy, esquire, for County of Fermanagh and Tyrone.

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House how far he proposes to proceed to-night, in the event of his Motion on the Paper being acceptable to the House?

We will, of course, act within the spirit and terms of the decision reached by the House on Monday, and, in the event of the suspension being agreed to for to-night we will propose to ask the Committee to give us this evening the remaining seven Supplementary Estimates. That would be in the expectation that the remaining Supplementary Estimates, together with one Excess Vote, will be disposed of on Friday.

Ordered,

"That the Proceedings on the Business of Supply be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Orders (Sittings of the House)."— [Mr. Clynes. ]

Notices of Motion

Capital Levy

On this day fortnight, to call attention to the proposal for a Capital Levy, and to move a Resolution.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Guinness. ]

Questionnaires to Members of Parliament

On this day fortnight, to call attention to the increasing habit of the persecution of Members and candidates by means of questionnaires , and to move a Resolution. —[ Major George Davies ]

Foreign Affairs

On this day fortnight, to call attention to the question of the Parliamentary control of Foreign Affairs, and to move a Resolution—[ Mr. Ayles. ]

Bills Presented

Small Debt (Scotland) Bill,

"to amend the Law of Scotland relating to payment by instalments of sums decerned for in small debt Courts, and to the arrestment of wages," presented by Mr. WILLIAM ADAMSON; supported by Mr. James Stewart; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]

House of Commons and Municipal Corporations (Qualification of Clergymen) Bill,

"to remove the disqualification of Clerks in Holy Orders and other Ministers of Religion as Members of the House of Commons and as Municipal Councillors," presented by Mr. JOHN HARRIS; supported by Mr. Atholl Robertson, Mr. Lansbury, Sir Robert Newman, Mr. Percy Harris, Mr. Ayles, Dr. Chapple, Mr. Edmund Harvey, Mr. Hudson, and Mr. Mills; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 79.]

Association of Municipal Corporations [Expenses]

I beg to move, have also been expressed regarding the legality of the payment of expenses for the attendance of representatives at the conference and council meetings of the association. The purpose and object of the Bill is to remove those difficulties and to enable the constituent bodies to pay reasonable subscriptions and also to pay reasonable expenses to their representatives when they attend the conferences and council meetings of the association.

This is not altogether a new point. It has been, raised in connection with a large number of private Bills, and powers have been given recently in no less than 30 cases in respect of private Acts and Provisional Orders which have been confirmed by Parliament. I would also like to point out that this principle has been accepted with regard to its application to the County Councils Association. Under an Act of 1889, and also under a more recent Act of 1920, these payments are legalised so far as the County Councils Association is concerned. Again, a somewhat similar provision, though not so satisfactory as that which the promoters of this Bill are venturing to submit for consideration was contained in a Bill promoted by the Coalition Government—the Local Authorities (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. In conclusion, I would like to point out that this Bill has friends in all quarters of the House. It is backed by the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Snell), the hon. Member for Everton Division of Liverpool (Sir John Harmood-Banner), the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. George Thorne) and the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Sir Charles Wilson), and I am not unhopeful, if the House will be kind enough to give it a First Reading, that at a later stage it may catch the eye of His Majesty's Ministers and receive from them that friendly consideration and attention which I venture to suggest it merits and deserves.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Douglas Newton, Mr. Snell, Sir John Harmood-Banner, Mr. George Thorne, and Sir Charles Wilson.

Association of Municipal Coeporations (Expenses) Bill,

"to remove doubt as to the legality of certain payments by the councils of boroughs, including Metropolitan boroughs," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 80.]

Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)

reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Sir George McCrae to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill).

Report to lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to

Whitehills Harbour Order Confirmation Bill.

Leith Harbour and Docks Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.

Orders of the Day

Supply

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1923–24

Class VI

Old Age Pensions

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary Sum, not exceeding £100,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the payment of Old Age Pensions, for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith, and for Pensions under the Blind Persons Act, 1920."

I can describe this small and very simple Supplementary Estimate in a very few sentences. The provision made for old age pensions during 1923–24 was £23,200,000. As the Committee knows, it is always rather difficult to forecast the exact sum which is required for old age pensions in any year. The Estimate is liable to change because of the prolonged life of pensioners, and also because of changes which take place in the way in which they draw their weekly amounts. In this case, no doubt there was some difficulty in making the Estimate because of a substantial change in conditions as compared with the preceding year. In point of fact, the mortality during 1923 was exceptionally low. There was a very great difference in the March quarter in the number of deaths—about 22,000 as compared with the higher figure of 34,000 in the preceding year. There was also the fact that the last Friday in 1922 was Good Friday, thus carrying over the payment of £50,000 into the present year. These two reasons help to account for the difficulty in framing an exact Estimate. There is also the fact that the returns from the Registrar-General indicate not only that the population over 70 years of age has increased in proportion to the total population of the country, but that there has also been an increase in the number of old age pensioners in our midst. These are really, in summary, the reasons which necessitate this small Supplementary Estimate of £100,000 to what, after all, is the very large sum of more than £23,000,000. The Committee will remember that on the previous Estimate there was an excess of £200,000, and I think hon. Members will agree that when we come within £100,000 of the sum actually required we have done very well. That is the short explanation. The matter does not appear to be one of any controversy, and I present the Estimate for acceptance by the Committee.

I do not think that any Member of the Committee will grudge this Supplementary Estimate, but that everyone from every point of view will be glad that these old age pensioners are getting this additional sum. It is true, as the hon. Member has said, that the main increase in this Vote is due, I suppose, to the increased and improved health conditions generally of the country, and I was hoping to hear from the hon. Member some tribute to the health progress that had been made under the last Government. I do not think that even the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) will ask the Committee to believe that six weeks of Labour Government have had anything to do with the increase in the life of the old age pensioners.

Undoubtedly the public health authorities have played their part, but I think the hon. Gentleman opposite would be the first to agree that they could do very little without the sympathetic co-operation of the central authority, and to that extent we owe our praise both to the local authorities and to the central authority. Many of us are interested in the administration of this Act, and I may say that I have some little interest in it as one who served on the London Old Age Pensions Committee. I rise to ask whether any of this Supplementary Estimate is due in any way to the increased cost of appeals. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has observed that in the year under review, with which this Supplementary Estimate is concerned, there were no less than 7,773 appeals. That is not a large number of appeals when you consider that the total number of pensioned people in Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the same period was 936,953. Therefore, the number of appeals is Dot high. I should like to ask whether any sum is included for that, because I am one of those who desire, if possible, to render the task of administration not only easy for the local pension committees, but for the old age pensioners themselves.

I observed, when I was Chairman of the London Old Age Pension Committee, a very large number of cases where there was considerable difficulty on the part of the old age pensioner in putting his case forward, and particularly in prosecuting his appeal. I hope that in this amount there are at any rate no figures included above the ordinary amounts of current years which could by any means go to show that unnecessary difficulty is being put in the way of the appeals of old age pensioners. I had a case only the other day, which I brought to the notice of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, of the difficulty of one old person in London proving her age. A very large number of appeals do arise where old people are not able to produce their birth certificates, and this is especially so with people who were born in Ireland. This old lady was born in Ireland. She had never had a proper birth certificate given her, and the only evidence which she was able to produce was her marriage certificate. She had to prosecute her appeal before, I think, the Central Tribunal, and it was a source of great anxiety and trouble to her. I hope that there is going to be no undue red tape or Government machinery put in the way of these old people getting the very small sum, as I believe it to be, at the present time.

I am very anxious to know whether there is any such sum included, or whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury can make any statement upon that particular aspect, and it is a very important aspect to very many old people in the country. I dare say that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury may say that last year there was an increase in the pensions granted in this country, and that to a certain extent may account for the increase in the Vote. It is perfectly true, I think, that last year there was an increase of some 4 per cent.

in the number of pensions that were granted in this country, but I hope that under the present administration, as under the past, every sympathy will be extended to people who, having regard to their age and very often their lack of educational facilities in their early beginnings, have great difficulty in being able to prosecute their appeals.

There is one other question which I want to put to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I notice that last year there were no less than 5,862 old age pensioners disqualified on account of age. I hope he will be able to assure the Committee that every care has been exercised in that direction.

I should like to know whether any further sum is being asked in connection with inquiries made by the central authority and by the local authorities on this particular account. Last year, over 10,000 old people were disqualified from receiving their old age pensions owing to the fact that they were in receipt of Poor Law relief. I regret that very much. Of course, I realise that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury must have regard to the present law until some alteration is made in the law, but I do ask him to deal as sympathetically as he can with any appeals that may be brought forward by old age pensioners in this connection. I also find that last year a further 10,000 people who would otherwise have qualified for old age pensions were deprived of them because they went over the means limit.

The hon. Member must not discuss that point on this Vote. He must confine himself to the question of pensions committees.

I did not propose to deal with the legislative side. My only point in quoting the figures was to ask whether in the Vote now before the Committee there was any undue cost on account of the inquiries made in connection with the means of these old people. Constantly cases come before Members of Parliament where these old people complain—I do not say it is true in every case—that a very large number of inquiries are addressed to them and that they are subject to a great amount of cross-examination. I hope that there is no cost included in this Vote on account of Government officials or extra machinery for that purpose. Will the Financial Secretary see that due sympathy, care and restraint are exercised on the part of Government officials?

An Act was passed, I think in 1922, the Government of Northern Ireland (Modification of Old Age Pensions) Act, and I dare say the Financial Secretary is aware that the effect of that Act is that no sum is to be paid to an old age pensioner on account of pensions granted to him in respect of Northern Ireland when that person is resident in Great Britain. There is also a provision which puts the other side of the matter. The Act provides that except for a period of 12 weeks after he has left one country to go to the other the old age pension is not payable. Is that administrative part of the old age pensions, which is a novel provision, working well, and are the old people receiving all that they ought to do on that account? Is there any difficulty in connection with the administration of that Act? The Committee will agree that we ought to know whether or not the administration is operating smoothly, and whether the old age pensioners are receiving the very small sum to which they are entitled, promptly, without undue difficulty and without anything in the way of cumbersome Government machinery. I know that the Financial Secretary is most sympathetic, but I should be glad if he could give us some assurance on these points.

I should like to know what is the nature of the Appropriations-in-Aid. Although they are very small, I think that from the point of view of accounting it would be interesting to know their exact nature. With reference to the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) may I make one suggestion to the Financial Secretary which does not arise on the statute but entirely in connection with administration. I wondered very often during the last year whether the existing system under which old age pensions records are kept by the Ministry of Health and the old age pensions are administered by the Treasury, is a system which conduces to efficiency. If there is one principle commonly adopted in Government administration it is that the Treasury should, as far as possible, have nothing to do, directly, with the spending of money; that they should have no direct function in connection with the spending of money. The system into which we have drifted by the administration of this great service by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue does not conduce to efficiency. It is much too big a question to go into in connection with this Supplementary Estimate, but I should like the Financial Secretary in his leisure, if he has any leisure, to consider whether a change in the administration is not very much needed.

The two speeches which have been made have not been speeches of opposition but requests for information. With respect to the last point put by the Noble Lord, I am afraid that it raises an issue which is very much wider than the Estimate before the Committee this afternoon. I am inclined to agree, offhand, without committing anybody, that it is not very desirable to have a system such as he has just described, and I will certainly undertake to make inquiries and see whether any change is desirable or can be introduced to that end. The hon. Member for West Woolwich asked certain questions with regard to the position of pensioners under the Act relating to Northern Ireland, and also with regard to the means disqualification and other problems of administration arising out of the present system of old age pensions. All I can say is that these questions ought to be discussed on the Estimate for old age pensions as a whole. This afternoon we are confined merely to a small Supplementary Estimate for £100,000 to provide for an almost unavoidable error in estimating the precise charge on the present financial year. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that this Government is warmly sympathetic in regard to the difficulties of the means limit and the other disqualifications that he has mentioned, and I have no doubt that at some later date we shall be able to introduce legislation to meet difficulties of that kind. One important point, and one strictly within this Estimate, which he put to me, was whether anything was included in the Vote for purposes of administration. On that point I can give a perfectly clear reply. The sum of £100,000 is strictly for the additional old age pensioners over and above the numbers provided for when the Estimates were framed. There is no administrative expense included in this Estimate. I hope that explanation meets the point put by my hon. Friend.

I am sure there will be general satisfaction at the reply of the Financial Secretary. Within the very strict limits of this Vote, I wish to emphasise the point which he has made, and which will give universal satisfaction not merely in this House, but beyond it. The additional sum of £100,000 asked for is due to four reasons, of which two' will commend themselves as particularly satisfactory to the Committee. In the first place, the rate of mortality in 1923 was exceptionally low, much lower than could have been foreseen at the time when the original Vote was asked for, and in the second place—and it is consequential on the first condition— there has been a marked increase in the number of pensioners per thousand of the septuagenarian population. I am sure all sections of the Committee will realise that these are, very largely, the reasons for the increase in the Vote. I should like to say, although we shall have much better opportunity of discussion when we deal with the old age pension Vote as a whole, that since this Vote was originally put there has been a most appalling increase in the total growth of expenditure. I should not be in order in examining the reasons for that increase, but I wish to reserve the right to deal with that question when we come to the larger question.

The Financial Secretary did not answer the question of the Noble Lord with regard to the appropriations-in-aid. What are they?

They are recoveries under Section 9 of the Act.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ex-Service Men (Ireland) Grant

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in connection with Ex-Service Officers and Men in Ireland, including Grants for Education and Resettlement, Pensions Appeal Tribunals, and a Grant-in-Aid to the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Lind Trust."

This Vote is required not for the purpose of providing more money, but solely for sanctioning the transfer of money already provided by Parliament from one sub-head of the Vote to another. The Committee may be interested to learn that when the recruiting campaign was proceeding in Ireland promises were made to the service men that they would be provided with cottages and land on their return after demobilisation. A sum of money was passed by Parliament to fulfil that promise, and meet the men's claims. It was decided later on to set up a Trust through which the money granted by Parliament might be handed to ex-service men entitled to it, but the Trust was not established within the period promised, and it falls to this Committee to sanction this Vote in order that the transfer may be made without in any way exceeding the sum already voted.

I do not think that this Vote will require very much explanation on my part, because it is a legacy which we received from the last Government, and which the last Government apparently-received from the previous Government. We are only carrying out a policy decided upon long ago. There may, however, be questions as to the number of cottages already built in this connection, and it will be well if I state that 3,672 cottages are provided for, 2,626 in Southern Ireland and 1,046 in Northern Ireland. In the first item on this Vote, B1, I wish to emphasise what I said at the commencement, that we are not asking for more money, but only asking for the transfer of money which has been already voted. That disposes, I hope, of Item B1, Schemes under the Irish Land (Provision for Sailors and Soldiers) Act, 1919.

Coming to the next two items covering pensions appeal tribunals, there was for the whole of Ireland originally only one entitlement tribunal and one assessment appeal tribunal in existence. With the separation of Northern and Southern Ireland, there arose the necessity of separate tribunals in the two respective portions of the country, and naturally there was an increase of expenditure in the items which are set forth here. I might explain that arrears of work arose which involved serious hardship to ex- service men and which necessitated the appointment of an additional but temporary entitlement tribunal and an additional temporary assessment tribunal. That accounts for part of the amount set forth in the last two items, C1 and C2. This Supplementary Vote under the heads which I have mentioned cover the salaries of the pensions appeal tribunal and staff. The sum under C2 covers travelling and other expenses. There are more claimants coming forward than was anticipated in the first instance. As I said, all we require, in the main, is the transfer of the larger sum of money from one account to another.

I desire to express approval in a few words of this particular Vote. I was responsible for the Act settling soldiers and sailors on the land in Ireland, and I was anxious to hear what my hon. Friend had to say with regard to developments under that particular. Act. The number of men who have been provided with houses is quite satisfactory, but, if I remember the scheme aright, there was also provision that, in addition to houses, land should be provided, and I should be glad if my hon. Friend could tell me whether any ex-service men have been settled on the land in Southern and Northern Ireland. This Committee will realise the enormous difficulty with which the operations of this Act were surrounded from 1919 for a considerable time, and the House of Commons, knowing full well the hardships which ex-service men had to endure in Ireland, would like to be assured, so far as the House has any responsibility in connection with this Act, that everything which we are bound to do is about to be done in order to assist these gallant fellows.

I do not think that this Committee will object to this Vote. It is an obligation which has been incurred. I understand that it is a nominal Vote which is on the Paper now. The reason why the Estimate has been reduced now is because there was some delay in setting up the Trust under the Act. Accordingly I do not think that this Committee ought to object to the Vote. With regard to the second part of the Vote, the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, I understand a larger sum is required in Southern than in Northern Ireland. In reference to Item C2, I would ask whether all expenses are paid to the ex-service men coming to this tribunal from various parts of Ireland, and, if so, whether the same thing applies to the ex-service men in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend, I think, said that this payment of expenses applies to ex-service men in the South of Ireland, and I want to know if this item also applies to ex-service men in the North of Ireland?

I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this Vote, but merely to get more information from the hon. Member. He pointed out that this is a legacy which this Government has inherited from the last Government. Then he went on to say that it was a legacy which the last Government had inherited from its predecessors. I do not quite understand how a Supplementary Estimate can be a legacy from the previous Government, but the question which I want to ask is, Does this sum, which is being voted by Parliament, come into the settlement of account between Great Britain and the Irish Free State, or are we to continue to pay money to the ex-service men in the Irish Free State and receive no quid pro quo for the expenditure of that money? I would like the hon. Member to tell the Committee whether the money expended under this account will be brought into the balance sheet that is being drawn up to establish the relative indebtedness of the two countries to each other, when there is a financial reckoning.

Then there is a point to which the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has alluded. Has this House any control over the administration of the Trust Fund? Can the hon. Member tell us whether we have any guarantee that this money is really being spent for the benefit of ex-service men in the Irish Free State, because I think that we do require an assurance on that point. I would like to know whether it is confined merely to ex-service men who fought in the late war, or whether it also applies to ex-service men who fought in the Boer War, because there are a great many Irishmen who took part in that war. I would like to know whether they are entitled to benefit from this policy. A point which we ought to bear in mind, is that it is not ex-service men in the Irish Free State Army who become, entitled to this, but merely ex-service men from the Imperial Army who fought for the British Empire. I would like the hon. Member also to tell us, if he can, whether any difficulty has been found in securing these houses for ex-service men, or whether they are now suffering any molestation from those who have in the past been boycotting, injuring and acting against ex-service men in Ireland?

I desire to ask a single question in reference to item C.2, and the very large increase indicated for travelling expenses. The hon. Gentleman in his explanation gave to the Committee some account of that matter, but the point on which I wish information is this. Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to let us know what proportion of the increase is due to increased expenses of appellants, and what proportion is due to increased expenses by the members of the Tribunal? I should be glad if we could have figures on that point.

I come from Ireland, and I am glad to see that after a long and unjustifiable delay the promises made to ex-service men are about to be fulfilled. I understand that a very able gentleman has been secured as the British representative on the Trust, and under his guidance we may hope that progress will now be made. One point to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) drew attention has come within my experience, that is to say, that ex-service men who are entitled to grants of land under this Act have had land actually allotted to them, but up to now they have been unable to be put in possession of that land by reason of the very service for which this land was to be given. The very fact that they had served in the British Army, and served under the Flag was the reason given explaining why they could not be put in possession of the land which had been allotted to them, and to which they became entitled. Things no doubt have improved in the Free State, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will make it their business to see that these men now at long last will secure that to which they are entitled.

I am pleased at the way in which this Vote has been received, and am very glad to give the explanations which have been sought. The provision of land does not arise on this Vote. No money is being asked for that purpose now. That question will arise on the Estimates for 1924–25, in which money for the purpose will be provided. I am glad to say that the provision for holdings for ex-service men is going on satisfactorily. In reference to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal I ought to explain that the expenses in regard to Northern and Southern Ireland are the same; such expenses are provided on an approved scale. When I referred to a legacy from the previous Government I was speaking of the policy. The policy with which we are now dealing was enunciated, in the first place, by the Coalition Government. I do not think it germane to this discussion, however, to dwell on how it originated. In answer to the Noble Lord the Member for Alder-shot (Viscount Wolmer), these ex-service men, I understand, include men only who served in the British Army. I am sorry that I cannot go into minute details, subdividing this item in the way that has been requested by the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott).

British Empire Exhibition

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary Sum, not exceeding £118,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in connection with a British Government Exhibit and Sundry Displays at the British Empire Exhibition, 1924."

Under this Supplementary Estimate, we are asking Parliament to sanction an expenditure in this financial year of £118,000, to be expended by the Department of Overseas Trade It falls under two heads: A is the British Government Pavilion and Exhibit, £115,500; and B displays, £2,500. If hon. Members will look at the notes which appear on pages 18 and 19, they will see the explanation why we ask for this Supplementary Estimate, and if they look at the paragraph at the bottom of page 18 they will see that most of the money had been spent before the Labour Government took office. Under item A we seek to cover this year's expenditure in connection with the exhibit at the Exhibition. The total expenditure is estimated at £175,000, so that the sum of £59,500 will have to be carried forward to the next financial year. Under B, it will be seen from the notes, it is proposed to arrange a series of massed band performances, a, pageant of Empire and a torchlight tattoo by the Services. These will be held in the stadium at the exhibition, for which no charge will be made to the Government. The £2,500 is required this year out of the total sum estimated of £85,000, but this expenditure is different from item A, inasmuch as charges for admission to the displays can be made, so that we hope there will be no cost whatever to the Exchequer; in fact, we Lope there will be a surplus.

That gives the details of this Supplementary Estimate, but it would not be inappropriate if I said a word or two regarding the aims and the objects of this wonderful Empire exhibition. I think I can safely say now that it is definitely decided the Exhibition will be opened on St. George's Day, the 23rd April, by His Majesty the King. Those of us who have sat through the Supplementary Estimates, and heard the long discussions on Colonial Votes, and have not been too much over the Empire, were taken in imagination to many of the Dominions, Colonies and Protectorates overseas, but this year we are to have brought, almost within a stone's throw of this House, the representative characteristics and advantages that may be obtained in every Dominion, Colony and Protectorate in this great Commonwealth of Nations. The attitude of the present Government was explained in this House on the 17th January by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who was very outspoken in his support of the Exhibition. But it is not only our own Government which supports it. The Dominions, Colonies and Protectorates are also joining in one effort to make the exhibition a magnificent success. By means of the Government exhibit, we wish to bring home to visitors from every country what is being done for the Empire by the various Departments of State. In the Pavilion of His Majesty's Government, the responsibilities of the Home Government, with regard to Empire defence, communications, settlement and economic and industrial development will be shown. The Department of Overseas Trade is normally responsible for the Govern- ment's participation in exhibitions, and is responsible for the co-ordination of this work.

I cannot go into the full details of the exhibits, but I can say from personal knowledge and observation that they will be worthy of the occasion. Every effort is being made to ensure that the exhibits shall appeal to the imagination of visitors from the home country and from overseas. As I said, the cost of the pavilion and the exhibits are included in this figure of £175,000. It has been found necessary that we should have a separate pavilion for the Government exhibit, as the space in the Palace of Industry, which is the largest building there is in this country, has been taken up, every inch of it, by the manufacturers in the country. So that this Vote has no relation whatever to that side of the exhibition. I may add, that the erection of the pavilion has found very useful work for the unemployed. It was recommended that the programme of military massed band performances and the torchlight tattoo should take place as part of the Government's participation, and His Majesty's Government approved of that many months ago. Fourteen massed band performances will take place about the last week in May, I believe.

The organisation of a Pageant is, no doubt, an unusual activity on the part of any Government, and certainly on the part of a British Government, but it was felt that it was very important that there should be a Pageant of Empire, and that it should be organised on such a unique occasion as this great British Empire Exhibition. Having regard to its educational importance, and the desirability of securing the active cooperation of the Dominions and India, the late Government acquiesced in the suggestion. I do not know that had it been a Labour Government they would have taken a decision in that way. If I had been one who wished to suggest an instalment of Socialism, or Government ownership, or Government management, after my experience, I do not think it would have been in the way of a pageant, but I am able to say that the present Government are prepared to see that what has been done is carried on, and to see the Pageant carried through. There will be three parts in the Pageant. The first will give the Birth of the Empire, the second the Growth of the Empire, and the third the Empire of To-day. It will take three days for what might be termed one show of the Pageant, and this will be repeated on 12 occasions, so that there will be 36 days in all in which many people will be co-operating in the success of this great Pageant of Empire. The Committee will be pleased to know that the ready co-operation of each of the Dominions has been given in connection with this object.

Is the hon. Member proposing to say anything this afternoon about the attitude of the Government in regard to the opening of the Exhibition on Sundays, or otherwise?

That does not come into this Vote at all, and I do not propose to enter into it. That, I believe, would need legislation. As I mentioned earlier, Treasury sanction, after the Government had give approval, was given to this idea in September of last year, and so the committee have been working very hard and much progress has been made towards the completion of all arrangements for the Pageant. I might mention that such experienced pageant masters have offered their services as Mr. Louis Parker, Sir Frank Benson and Mr. Granville Barker. Mr. Rudyard Kipling has generously undertaken the duty of writing the greater part of the text, and Sir Edward Elgar is composing a ceremonial march and song for the occasion. The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) has placed his great historical knowledge at the service of the committee. We have been fortunate, also, in securing the services of such distinguished pageant masters as Mr. Frank Lascelles, who has been connected with many pageants in various parts of the Empire, and Mr. Patrick Kirwan, who was responsible for the pageant at Arundel Castle last year.

Excellent progress has been made up to now, and I think it is due that I should express my thanks, and those of everybody concerned, to the many men and women who are giving their services in order to try to make this a great success. But it is not without difficulties, or was not without difficulties a few weeks ago, and I felt it was necessary that we should have a somewhat larger organisation taking charge of this pageant, and, through the offices of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, I was able to secure on the Council dealing with this matter many representatives of each of the Dominions, India, the Colonies and of many Government Departments concerned and other ladies and gentlemen. We have representing South Africa, His Royal Highness Prince Arthur of Connaught on the Council which is looking after the Pageant, and I think it is safe to say that the names of the Committee have given satisfaction to all the representatives of the Dominions in this country and done a great deal to co-ordinate the work in a manner which is proving very successful.

5.0 P.M.

Might I appeal to hon. Members of this House to take an interest in this Exhibition, and in their constituencies make known what is to take place, so that those who are far away from London may know what is likely to transpire in connection with the exhibition this year? If there should be a group of Members who have not been down to Wembley recently, and would like to run round at a very early date, as it is springing up so rapidly, I should be pleased to make arrangements so that they might be shown round by the officials of the exhibition. I do not think it is necessary for me to go further into details of this Supplementary Estimate, except to say that the expenditure for which I am asking does not compare unfavourably with that of other parts of the Empire. India's expenditure in connection with the Exhibition is, approximately £180,000, Canada, $1,000,000; Australia, £200,000; New Zealand, £80,000; the Union of South Africa, £80,000, and the West African group, £100,000. I may now leave the matter with the Committee, and I appeal to them to give me the Vote very early.

The Committee has listened with great interest to the very full statement by the hon. Gentleman who presides over the Department of Overseas Trade, and will congratulate him both on what he said and the manner of saying it, because I believe that in all parts of this Committee we are most anxious that this great project, to which the overseas Dominions and Colonies look forward with hope, will be a great success, when the work of it is being so well performed by His Majesty's Govern- ment here. The tremendous effort that has been made, particularly by some of the smaller and even of the poorer Colonies, is very remarkable, and I am glad that all is being done that can be done by this Government to make the Exhibition a success, as I believe it is bound to be. May I ask one or two questions? In the British Government Pavilion, to which this Vote is more particularly related, I understand there is to be a special section devoted to emigration. The Overseas Settlement Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lunn) is now the Chairman, has for a long time been considering how it can best assist those who visit the Exhibition and who want to ascertain accurate information with regard to the various opportunities that exist for British settlers and British trade overseas. It is perfectly clear that each Dominion pavilion will have its own emigration propaganda and will make clear to settlers, whom every British Dominion wishes to attract, the opportunities that they offer. But I do think it is very essential that in the British Pavilion there should be effective co-ordination of that work, and that the facts in regard to cost of passages, where people are to go who wish to settle within the Empire, and where they can get the best advice, should be provided on an adequate scale.

My first definite question is, How much of this money for the British Government's Pavilion has been allocated to the Overseas Settlement section of that pavilion? It is very important, because I frequently receive letters from my constituents, and I expect other Members also do, from men who wish to go to Australia and Canada, and who want to know what the conditions are, what assistance they can get, whether they are likely to be met on arrival, and what chances they have; and it seems to me that the British Pavilion could provide unique information for the enormous numbers of visitors. I would like to know a little more about the British Government's exhibit. We are all very glad that the Pageant, in which distinguished artists and students of history are to take part, is going forward; but there are important things of event greater interest in connection with the British Government exhibit. Take the Forestry Commission. Has the Forestry Commission any definite place in the British Government Pavilion? Lord Lovat's work in connection with forestry came up for review at the Imperial Economic Conference. One of the things I shall most recollect, in connection with the sittings of the Imperial Economic Conference, was the enormous leeway that has to be made up in connection with forestry throughout the whole Empire, not only in regard to forestry products, forestry engineering and forestry conservation, but in regard to the actual knowledge of the present position of forestry resources. This requires to be looked into, not only from the United Kingdom point of view, or only from the Empire point of view, but from the world point of view. It is a question of growing importance to anyone who has gone into it at all. I would like to know if the Forestry Commission are to be represented in the British section of the exhibition? I am told that the Admiralty are going to have a special exhibit in this pavilion.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us roughly what the idea of the Admiralty is in their exhibition? I understand that there is a scheme for making clear to visitors—and not only to visitors, because this exhibition is to be of enormous educational value to the youth and children of this country—the position of shipping throughout the world and the part that British shipping plays in the shipping of the world; that there are to be set out maps showing the position of all the trading vessels in the world, the great trade routes, and the great centres of trade. That is a thing that no one Dominion or Colony can do, but which, if done, would be of immense educational value to everybody in connection with the British mercantile marine and British commerce generally. Anything which the hon. Gentleman can tell us with regard to this Government exhibit would, I am sure, elicit suggestions from hon. Members of this Committee which might be of value, though I realise that this is a late date and that plans are pretty well complete. The way in which the work has been going on, as the hon. Gentleman says, in the last few months, the pace at which it has been done, and, considering all the difficulties, the smoothness with which it has been working, deserves the greatest tribute of credit being paid to all those concerned. The work done by Sir Henry McMahon, Sir James Stevenson, and General Sir Travers Clarke, in the last few months, has been of the most remarkable quality and has already been shown to be a most remarkable achievement. I do not think I need say anything further, because I think the whole of the Committee will support the hon. Gentleman in the Vote he brings before it, and will wish him and his efforts and all those connected with the exhibition every success in the next few months.

I am afraid I am going to raise a discordant note in this discussion. I was on the management committee, and was helping in the earlier work of the exhibition. While I have received the greatest courtesy from the Minister responsible, the management committee has been subjected to the greatest discourtesy from the "Big Five." I would like the Minister who has asked for this Vote to indicate the manner of management, the authority for the management, the part the Colonies and Dominions are playing, the control they have over the sums they contribute, the sums they have invested, the work they are doing, and also what voice they had with the bureaucracy in power at the moment. When the management committee was in existence, the representatives of the Colonies and Dominions were very anxious to receive information. On every occasion when that information was asked for it was postponed, and although pledges were given by the management, information was not forthcoming, and ultimately the management committee was broken up. Although I believe it has been expressed in the Press that the jurisdiction is subject to the executive and management committee, neither the executive nor the management committee is consulted and large sums of money have been voted without any details being submitted to either the management committee or the executive. At all times when I came here to utter my protest, the names of His Royal Highness and of the Duke of Devonshire were utilised as a bludgeon to silence any sort of inquiry. I think that is the worst possible form of corruption. It is an insult to the Throne, it is an insult to the title that is bandied about in order to prevent free inquiry. I have asked for two years that the matter of accommodation should be provided for. It was promised two years ago. It was only with the advent of this Government that any real thought has been given to the matter.

The greatest difficulty was experienced in obtaining proper hotel and living accommodation for the visitors. Although we have in the Thames Valley at least ten millions of people, and all our hotel accommodation in an ordinary season, there is not room for an extra four or five thousand persons. There is no definite plan. There is a nebulous plan that people may go to Southend or Brighton, or so on, but there is no real organisation for anything like accommodation. There is no real control over the amusements. A very small company has been formed and there are geniuses behind it, but the whole position, even for amusements, is most unsatisfactory.

In the matter of building, does anyone think that on the day appointed for the opening the exhibition will be ready? Does anyone believe that the Indian Pavilion will be ready in July, that the building will be ready in August? I am anxious to protect this House in general and the Government in particular against what I view with great apprehension as a very serious scandal, arising out of the appointment of a number of persons irresponsible to this House and, practically, without control from the Dominions. That will reflect upon the management, the Joynson-Hicks management, that was not consulted. The manager, Mr. Wintour, was asked to resign. He was the real brains of the organisation, and because he was suspected of brains, he was asked to resign. Those of us who took a sincere interest, as we do now, in the exhibition, want to know from the Government what authority the Government is now exercising or will exercise, and what consultation the Government has with the Dominions and the Colonies in order that a report may be rendered to this House and to the country. From a trade union standpoint, we have had considerable dissension over the employment of workmen at less than the proper trade union rates.

When this great Empire exhibition was mooted, men of great wealth and eminence in the country offered their names as guarantors. I want to know what protection will be given to these same gentlemen, who gave their influence and offered their guarantees? I was party to an executive meeting when £400,000 was asked for as glibly as if we were having the luxury of a war. That was done without a single detail being vouchsafed to us. We had to take it on trust, because the names of the high and mighty were behind the request. In all probability those whose names were quoted knew nothing whatever about it, or knew as much about it as the gentleman asking for the £400,000. I am sure that if he had been pressed he would have been in utter confusion in giving any sort of detail of that large expenditure.

I shall vote against this Motion. I am positive that if an inquiry were held, the most unsatisfactory conditions would be disclosed. The practical and representative brains of our Dominions and of India have expressed to me at our committee meetings their strong dissent from the high-handed attitude of even that great gentleman, Sir H. McMahon. He is a great organiser, but he has had more experience in India than in this country. I would be satisfied if there were laid on the Table of the House the scheme of organisation, of control, of maintenance, of payment, of authority and of responsibility. We ought not to venture another cent from our funds until some guarantee is given that there will be something like effective business management. At present it is a bureaucracy; it is a hush-hush organisation, so far as financial administration is concerned, and from the practical business standpoint of accommodation there has been no real effort made to deal with the position. In London, in an ordinary season, there is no room for more than 5,000 extra visitors at the outside, and here we are going to deal with millions. I would like to have some assurance that our colonists, visiting the country for the first time, will go away with great respect and love of the old country and with a wider sense of what our glorious Empire means.

I intervene now only because I deprecate discussion taking the line followed by the last speaker. He and I are very old friends. We understand what plain talking means and we are still friends. Friendship does not prevent our talking plainly. He and I sat on the committee at the same time. Of the matters about which he has spoken I know something equally with him. I frankly say that if I were called upon to defend the early stages of management of this Exhibition I would refuse to do it.

I was speaking of the lot. I say frankly to the Committee that I would not pretend to defend the blunders of the early stages, and no one would who knows anything about them. But that must not prevent us, and ought not to prevent us, from realising that passing criticism of that stage will not help the position of an exhibition which is to be opened in four weeks' time. When anyone talks about £6,000,000 of money being spent, I say, let the facts be examined. The British contribution is £100,000 and it is about that we are talking. This House has sanctioned only £100,000.

Yes, it was £100,000. The name of the Duke of Devonshire has been mentioned. It is due to him to say that, apart entirely from his work and interest, he alone guaranteed £400,000, which would have had to come out of his own purse if the Government had failed him. Otherwise the exhibition could not go on. Even without Government sanction or authority of any kind, he stood guarantor to the Bank for £400,000. That is the situation. I do not want to say anything about Mr. Wintour. If I wanted someone to make an agreement for me, I would ask Mr. Wintour to do it. That is a different thing from defending the agreement that has been made. Anyone who knows the details of that agreement will come to the conclusion that I have reached. I want to assure my hon. Friend, who took considerable interest in this matter and worked hard with us and with others, that we reached a stage where it was necessary to say to a few people, "If this thing is to be a success, get on with the job." In other words, there were too many people and what was everyone's job was no one's job. Frankly, that is the situation. I could see plainly that there were too many people dabbling in the show, and we had to say to someone, "£12,000,000 has been spent." Let us keep that in mind. Does anyone in this Committee suggest for a moment that with that huge expenditure, and with the interest of the Dominions in the Exhibition, we ought to boggle at this stage? Ought we not rather to say that we must make it a success, whatever the difficulties may be? That is our position.

You can be responsible only for the money that you are sanctioning. Do not mix that with the responsibility of the Dominions. I have not heard a complaint and I do not think that any responsible person from the Dominions has gone to my hon. Friend.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will not traverse the honesty of my statement. I have worked week after week with the representatives of the Dominions, and there has not been a single week when they have not grumbled at the lack of information and were very alarmed at the ineptitude shown.

That is an entirely different matter. The Dominions have High Commissioners; they are represented on the Committee.

Yes, on the Board. The Dominions know that they are in daily contact. I visited the exhibition 10 days ago with the representatives of the whole of the Dominions. We went through the exhibition together, and while they had complaints of the old days, they were united in saying that now things were going smoothly. That is the situation to-day. I am quite sure that a mistake was made by my hon. Friend in his assumption that the exhibition is not nearly completed. I thought at one time that the work could not be done this year. That would have been the impression of anyone who visited the exhibition seven or eight weeks ago. Those in authority said, "Yes, but the difference between knowing this business and being an amateur is that each week you are working towards a completed stage." Each week that you go there you see things done that you assumed would have taken months. I say that on 23rd April, when His Majesty is to open the exhibition, it will be ready. We do not want it to go forth that the exhibition will not be complete. We say that it will be complete. We have the greatest assurance and evidence that that will be so.

The question of accommodation has been raised. I do not know what could be done. It is not the Government's business to deal with accommodation for visitors. I differentiate. The Government's business is to see that visitors of the coloured races, who know nothing of our language, are protected, helped and housed, and we must see that there is no scandal arising from the fact that we failed to do our duty towards them. I can give my hon. Friend an assurance that that work is being done. I give him an assurance now that, though there were difficulties four weeks ago, I have gone into the matter myself and I am satisfied it is being done.

I think the hon. Member will agree that is our first obligation. The second obligation is, that as there are large numbers of children coming from the Dominions for education purposes, we should see that they are properly housed and properly treated so that they will go back with a good impression. That I assure him is being done. The third point relates to the organisation of a system of dealing with the large number of visitors which is expected—not visitors of the type who come to this country annually and have their own regular hotels, but visitors who are coming specially for the exhibition. A large number of men and women in different committees are working and organising schemes and plans for dealing with that situation, but I am sure my hon. Friend would not pretend that the Government should accept responsibility, and that they should commandeer hotels or do anything of that kind. That is impossible. I am sure we all appreciate the work done by my hon. Friend since the commencement. He organised the trade union section, in which magnificent work has been done. I know there have been difficulties, and I know he has had complaints about certain people being somewhat autocratic, but when you are within five weeks of the opening of the exhibition you cannot go to the Executive Committee with every point that arises to determine what is to be done. You have to say, "Do it," and hold those who are ordered to do it responsible for doing it. That is the situation, that is what we have endeavoured to do, and we have confidence that it is going to be a success. Questions were put yesterday about the advertising of the exhibition. The answer I give now is that we wanted to make the exhibition a success, from the standpoint of everything being completed, before we commenced advertising. I will only say that I hope every speaker to-day will give it a further advertisement and will help to ensure its success.

I wish to substantiate and endorse very word spoken by the Colonial Secretary. I have had the advantage of being associated with this exhibition from the pioneer days, and of having served on various committees, and I can bear testimony to the excellent work done by the hon. Member for North Salford (Mr. Tillett). As the Colonial Secretary has just said, we came to the conclusion that in order to complete the exhibition in time it was essential to have a real strong business board to take it in hand. When time is against you, sometimes autocracy is very necessary if the work is to be finished. As far as I have seen the working of this business board, I do not think there is any possible way in which it could be improved. Regarding the prospects of the opening of the exhibition, I paid a visit there this morning, and was there for three hours, and I can assure hon. Members, as one who has had an opportunity of seeing practically every great exhibition within the last 20 years, that this exhibition is more likely to be in a state of completion on its opening day, St. George's Day, than was the case with any exhibition held in the United States or Europe during the last 20 years. The point has been raised that the welfare side is not being considered—I refer to the welfare of the natives. I have it only this morning from those responsible—and from a lady who is more capable than any other in this country to consider that subject—that every single detail concerning the welfare of the native races has been rounded up, and we may be perfectly certain that every native who comes here in the various overseas sections will be properly cared for.

The advance made up to date is perfectly amazing. Those who have had an opportunity of going to the exhibition week after week find on every visit, after only a week's interval, signs of the most amazing progress. On the subject of advertising, Members should bear in mind that the Government guarantee, as far as the exhibition is concerned, is less than one-tenth of the amount guaranteed by private guarantors all over the country. The first essential was to put up the exhibition. There was no use splashing money over the world on advertising until you knew you had the goods to offer, and the first essential was to have the exhibition in esse . That has been done, and as far as we can afford it, money will be spent in Press publicity and poster work throughout the world. I think it is agreed that there is no good in publishing them too soon, but I can assure the House that the artistic taste of the posters has never been equalled in connection with any other exhibition in the world.

This Debate has been perfectly justified by the statement of the Colonial Secretary. For my part the very last thing I wish to do is to attack the exhibition. On the contrary, I think every Member of this House is responsible and should try to make it a success. The national credit is at stake, because not only the whole Empire but the world look upon it as a national effort. Whatever the facts may be, the exhibition is looked upon as a State enterprise. The right hon. Gentleman said he was not prepared to defend the early policy connected with the exhibition, and was most emphatic upon that point. He went on to say that some £12,000,000 had been sunk in the building and the site, but the Government cannot entirely shift the responsibility. The impression is abroad that the Government are responsible. If the exhibition is a success, no doubt the promoters will take the credit, and no one will grudge it to them, but if it is a failure the responsibility will be on the Government and this House.

If it is a failure, the responsibility for that failure will be laid upon this House. This has always been somewhat of a mystery exhibition. No one can understand why this particular site at Wembley was selected. It is not a convenient site and, as far as one can see it, it is not an ideal site. Even at this late stage the nation, through Parliament, ought to know what is the Government position, to whom the exhibition site belongs, and who is liable for the organisation and success of the exhibition. Reference has been made to guarantees. Large sums are involved and apparently public-spirited people have come to the rescue of the exhibition at a comparatively late stage. We want to know a little more. Who are the actual promoters, and who made it necessary to change the policy? Even at this stage it would not be an unwise thing to appoint a Committee of this House, not to find fault, but to satisfy the public, to secure that the large sums involved and guaranteed by private patriotic people are being properly spent, and that the profits, if any, should go entirely to relieve their liabilities. The hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) referred to advertising, and I noticed he used the word "we" as also did the Colonial Secretary. Who is pushing the exhibition? Is it a voluntary or a State enterprise? What is its relation to the Department of Overseas Trade, or to the Colonial Office? It still remains a mystery to some extent. Now that the exhibition has assumed Imperial importance and is regarded as a national enterprise, the Government ought to make their position clear and assume greater liability. Take one matter which may seem to be no concern of this House, but which is of great importance, namely, the entrance fee. The usual fee for exhibitions has been 1s. but that is to be raised by 50 per cent. Whoever is responsible may be right. It is quite possible the expenses justify it, but who is to have the final say in this matter? Are the Government to be able to say what are to be the hours of opening, and what is to be the fee for entering the exhibition? We cannot take this sum of £100,000 as our total liability and as the measure of the responsibility of this House to the exhibition.

I do not wish the hon. Member to be under a misapprehension. We did not say that it was the total measure of our responsibility.

We are guarantors, and we ought to know how far we are involved. I want to make the exhibition a success. People from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India, and all parts of the Empire are coming over to see the efforts of this country to develop the Empire, and I would say that £100,000 is not a fair measure of what our support should be. It would be much better for us to contribute, at any rate, as much as other parts of the Empire, including comparatively poor parts. But is it right to come to the House a few weeks before the exhibition is opened, and say that £100.000 is required to erect a suitable building? Are we to understand that the building has not yet been started? Is it not nearly completed? I am, reading from the Estimate, and I think that is certainly a misleading statement. The House has already been committed to this sum. If the exhibition is to be worthy of the Empire and of this country, we should be perfectly justified in investing more money and in endeavouring to see that the exhibits of Great Britain compare favourably with those of other parts of the Empire. We should be in a position to tell the Empire that we are satisfied that the management is efficient, that the profits will go to the right persons, and that the site belongs to the right people. I have never been satisfied as to the ownership of the site, and as to whom it will revert, and where the increment will go, whether it will go to private persons or to the community. The wiser course would be to have a Committee of this House representing all sections so that we might be satisfied, even at this late hour, that the exhibition will be worthy of its purpose, and will be a credit to this country and to the Empire.

The hon. Member says he is not satisfied with the site of the exhibition, but is it not rather late in the day to raise that point? If that is all he can do to help in making the exhibition a success, I think we may congratulate ourselves that he is not upon the Committee of Management. I am sure the Committee was reassured by the statement of the Colonial Secretary, but I should like to go back to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). I think the Committee would like a little more information as to what the British Government exhibit is going to be. I do not mean about the pageant and the displays, as I think the Parliamentary Secretary gave us very full information about them, but what is going to be exhibited inside the Imperial Government pavilion? Anybody who has been down to the exhibition cannot fail to be impressed by the tremendous size and attractiveness of the whole undertaking, and this House has a certain responsibility to see that the Imperial Government undertaking is up to and, indeed, above the standard. I, therefore, hope the Government will be able to tell us in a little more detail what the words "defence, trade, communications, and settlement," at the end of Note (1) in the Supplementary Estimate mean. In regard to finance, I notice, also in Note (1), that at the close of the exhibition the "receipts from sales of stock, fittings, etc., will be paid over to the Exchequer as extra receipts." Supposing the exhibition is a success, and there is a profit, does the Exchequer get a share in the profits, or do they go to the guarantors? I think the Committee should have that information.

As the discussion has ranged over a wide field, I think I should be in order in raising the question of Sunday opening.

I cannot allow any discussion on Sunday opening, which, I understand, is a matter for legislation.

On a point of Order. Can you state, Sir, on what grounds legislation is required for Sunday opening of an exhibition which is not under any statutory disability?

I am told that if this exhibition is to pay its way, about 30,000,000 people will have to pay entrance money, and on that point alone I hope the question of Sunday opening will not escape the notice of the Government. I should like to ask another question of the Parliamentary Secretary. I see that the question of defence is to take part in the exhibit in the Imperial Government building, and I hear from an hon. Friend that the Admiralty is to have a part. Can the Government tell us if the War Office is going to do the same, and particularly if the Territorial Army is going to have an advertisement and be brought before the thousands of school children who will visit the exhibition? In regard to what my hon. Friend said about forestry, it may be too late, if the Forestry Commission has not thought of taking part in the exhibition, to ask them to do anything, but could not a film be got out, before the exhibition closes, giving the facts of the forestry situation throughout the world? Anybody who has read the speech of Lord Lovat at the Imperial Economic Conference cannot fail to be somewhat alarmed by the rate at which forests are disappearing over the whole face of the earth, and I would suggest that it would be of tremendous educational value if a film, even if it could only give the statistics, were put on in the Imperial Government building.

The Parliamentary Secretary appealed to hon. Members to do what they could in their constituencies to advertise the British Empire Exhibition, but I am glad to say that in the constituency which I have the honour to represent, the city of Hull, it requires no advertising. The corporation have taken the Civic Hall for a fortnight, they have taken the Stadium for a day, and they are doing their best to enrol members in the British Empire Fellowship throughout the city. I feel quite certain that if every other city followed the example of the city of Hull, very little advertisement would have to be done by the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain).

On a point of Order. As the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Lumley) wished to raise the question of Sunday opening, I desire to ask a ruling from you, Mr. Chairman. On what ground is it held that the question of the Sunday opening of this exhibition cannot be discussed in the course of this Debate? I wish to make the submission that at the present moment there are many exhibitions open to the public for which a charge is made—concerts, cinemas, and so forth—and in addition to them, Kew Gardens, under the auspices of His Majesty's Government, can only be entered on a Sunday on payment of Id. Consequently, all these things are going on without legislation, and in these circumstances, if so many various exhibitions can be carried on on the principle of a charge for admission, my submission to you, Mr. Chairman, is that the question of the policy of opening this exhibition on Sundays can be raised on this Vote.

On the point of order. Before your ruling be given, Mr. Young, may I submit that the Vote now before the Committee relates only to the expenditure to be incurred in connection with the British exhibit and the displays mentioned in relation to it, and whether or not the question of Sunday opening involves legislation does not really affect the margin within which discussion can Tie conducted on this Vote? May I also remind you that the general question of the exhibition was settled by this House long ago, when it was decided that the guarantee of the State should be given.

On that point of Order. May I point out that the question of accommodation, which is not part of the exhibit, was allowed to be discussed?

On the point of Order. In answer to the Deputy Leader of the House, may I point out that the mere fact that this Vote does not affect the whole exhibition in no way debars the question from discussion, inasmuch as the British Government exhibit is obviously concerned with this question. I should probably take a, different view from the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle), but I should like to know on what authority it is held that it requires a statutory enactment to decide the matter. I do not see any Law Officer of the Crown present—in fact, it would be an unusual thing to do so—but I dare say you, Sir, feel in a difficulty about this matter, because, obviously, the Chair cannot decide, on its own account, a legal matter of this kind, as to whether legislation is or is not necessary. May I support what the hon. Member for Penistone said, namely, that wherever you go to-day you do not see Acts of Parliament brought in to open this or that exhibition, or to hold this or that concert, and, therefore, I think we ought to have some authoritative statement on the question from a legal authority before the Committee can come to a decision.

On a point of Order. May I ask, Mr. Young, that you do not give your ruling until you have heard from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the reasons why, at an earlier stage in this Debate, he stated to the Committee that the question of the Sunday opening of the exhibition required legislation? If he would substantiate that, I think we might spare the Attorney-General; otherwise, it seems to me that we ought to have a Law Officer present.

On a point oft Order. The Deputy-Leader of the House made an extraordinary statement just now, because he said the question of Sunday opening was not relevant to this Estimate, which was for this building and exhibit, but I cannot help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman has not read the Estimate, because it there says that charges for admission will be made to these special displays.

On a point of Order. I think you ought to call the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Mills) to order, Mr. Young, for accusing hon. Members of obstruction. There is an agreement that these Votes are to go through in a reasonable time, and any hon. Member, therefore, who accuses other hon. Members of obstruction is guilty of slandering them.

The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Mills) has only just come in, and he does not know what it is all about.

I am sure the hon. Member for Dartford will have an opportunity shortly of making a speech himself. He has only just walked into the Chamber, and I was talking on this point of Order, about which he does not know anything at all. The Deputy-Leader of the House said that the question of Sunday opening was nothing at all to do with the Estimate before the Committee. I maintain that it has a lot to do with it, because in this Estimate it states that charges for admission will be made to the displays. Surely, if we are going to make a success of this exhibition, and if the Government are not going to lose money over the displays, it is essential that the exhibition should be open seven days in the week, and not six. I therefore submit that point, to see if you can rule that we should discuss this question.

On the point of Order. Without prejudice as to the question whether statutory authority is necessary for Sunday opening, I would put this to you, Mr. Chairman, before you give your ruling, as it is a matter which concerns more Estimates than the present one. This is a New Service, and I submit that on a New Service the whole question of policy, as to the purposes for which the Service was required and the manner in which the money will be expended, is open to discussion, even though no question of the application of policy may arise within the particular financial year.

In relation to the general discussion being on a New Service, I was allowing a good deal of latitude. In relation to the question of Sunday opening, the Minister made a definite statement that it required legislation. I accepted that, and it is for him to substantiate it. If he says it requires legislation, I am entitled to rule out any discussion upon that subject.

6.0 P.M.

It will not be expected by the Committee that I should take the place of the Law Officers of the Crown la giving an opinion upon a matter of this sort. I am not claiming to be able to take their position, and I am sure they would resent it, with the legal fraternity, if I ventured to give interpretations of law. The only information I had in regard to this fact, or most of it, comes from the exhibition authorities only, and I wish to say that the advice that was given to me was that this matter regarding Sunday opening had been considered by the exhibition authorities. They had taken into account the pros and cons and they had come to the conclusion, which is definitely before me now, that the ex- hibition could not be opened to the general public on Sundays without a special Act of Parliament. In view of that I made the statement I did.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether he has taken the opinion of the Law Officer of the Crown?

I stated definitely that I did not give the opinion of the Law Officers on the matter. Why, therefore, ask such a needless question? Since I stated what I did, I have read through the document which I have given as my authority for referring to this particular matter. That was why I spoke to the Committee as to what was the position.

I believe I am in possession of the House. We are still on this point of Order. Now that the Attorney-General has come into the House can we not have his opinion upon this point?

On this point of Order. There is one question which I should like to put to the Secretary, Department of Overseas Trade—that is whether the exhibition authorities in giving that advice indicated that they had obtained counsel's opinion. Now that we have the privilege—the unique privilege—of the presence of the Attorney-General, I should like with great respect to put a question to him as to whether in his view statutory authority is required for opening the British Empire Exhibition on Sundays. In case he has not made up his mind, I should like to put one or two considerations before him which appear to me to be relevant.

In the first place it is common knowledge that there are many places of entertainment open on Sundays for which a charge for admission is made. There are cinemas and concerts, and I understand that there has been no interference on the part of the police with such entertainments. That is the first point. The second is that His Majesty's Government open Kew Gardens every Sunday and charge every individual on entering the sum of Id. Obviously there has been no statutory authority for that. In view of these considerations there is at least a prima facie case that no statutory authority is required, and in the light of these considerations I shall be glad if the Attorney-General will assist the Committee in this matter.

May I put one or two further considerations to the Attorney-General. In addition to these concerts and exhibitions being held on Sunday, my hon. Friend has forgotten that there are even certain meetings held on Sundays for which a charge is made. I myself observed that the Attorney-General made a speech, I believe in a theatre, last Sunday evening. Whether or not a charge was made in that connection I do not know, but there is no doubt about it there are cases of this kind. The point I want to put is—and I am only raising it because I think it is a question the House of Commons should decide—I do not agree perhaps with the hon. Member opposite—but the House of Commons should decide the matter at an early date. [An HON. MEMBER: "Pure obstruction!'] I must ask your protection, Mr. Young, from the hon. Member opposite. It is a perfectly proper point—

What has an ordinary private meeting in a theatre to do with this question of Governmental control?

I am grateful for what you have said, Mr. Young. The only possible reason that an Act of Parliament should be required would probably be because of the Act of Charles the Second, I believe it was. I think the Attorney-General will agree that a good many decisions have been given in the Courts during the last 20 or 30 years in connection with this matter, and these have very seriously taken away from the original legal conception of the Act of Parliament. I am sure we shall all welcome from the right hon. and learned Gentleman his judgment and opinion, having regard to these considerations, as to whether an Act is necessary or not. I agree it is a very difficult question. Anyone who had watched the matter for the last score of years, say, must realise the difficulty of giving an opinion. I have no doubt whatever that the Attorney-General now realises the point that is before the Committee and I shall not stand further between him and the Committee.

I hope that the Committee will acquit me of any desire to appear contemptuous or not to attend to my duty. I am sure that they will allow me to say that there is at present only one Law Officer and the duties, therefore, are extremely heavy. If I am not in this Chamber I am generally to be found in my room at the end of the corridor doing work of a Governmental nature. Hon. Members may know that if I had had the slightest indication that any such question was likely to be put to me I should have been here before. The question of course, as my hon. Friends know, really depends upon the Sunday Observance Act of 1871, and the section in question deals mainly with places of amusement. The principle really underlying all these decisions—I am speaking from recollection—the test appeals to be, whether the place is kept open as a place of public amusement. One knows how it arises in the case of picture palaces, or in the case of alterations by which places are adapted for other purposes. Personally—I am speaking simply and solely on the spur of the moment— but the question, I think, will necessarily come up as to whether or not the place is a place of amusement—whether this particular exhibition is a place of amusement within the meaning of the Section. That certainly is a matter which I should unhesitatingly refuse to express an opinion on now—as to whether this exhibition can be opened or not on Sundays. If I had a case submitted to me at this moment for my private opinion I should express the view that it would be extremely probable that if it were kept open it would be a breach of this particular Act. If it were, statutory powers will be required. I think, however, if the House wishes to have a considered opinion on the matter it would perhaps be better that I should give it later to-night, after I have had an opportunity of looking up the authorities, or possibly to-morrow, or some other occasion when it is considered desirable.

I understand the Attorney-General to say that statutory powers may be necessary. I should like to ask one question. If they are necessary would he approach the Prime Minister and see if a Bill could be introduced—

Would it be in order to discuss not the amusement part of the exhibition being open to the public on Sunday but the rest of the exhibition, not so much the places of public amusement, but those of public instruction and education? Can that be discussed? It does not come under the Act.

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has definitely refused to say legislation; will be needed, I submit, with all respect, that the Debate may proceed on the assumption that legislation will not be necessary.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he would inquire into the matter. I think, therefore, the House should postpone any further discussion on this particular matter until the Report stage.

I will draw my remarks to a close. Reference has been made to the management of the exhibition by the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Tillett). I am not in a position to defend the management of the exhibition. I would only say that everybody in this Committee, I think, will be anxious that an undertaking of this colossal character shall proceed without friction. You have only got to go down to the exhibition, and walk round it, even, in its present state, to realise that whatever is to be placed on the debit side of the management in the matter of friction and that sort of thing, at any rate there is a tremendous amount to be placed on the credit side. It is upon that aspect of the question that it seems more worth our while to concentrate this evening, and to do our best to give it a good advertisement and not a bad one.

All parts of the House are very interested in the very pictorial representation of the Wembley exhibition put by the right hon. Gentleman in front, and particularly in the emphasis he laid on its educational value. I was particularly interested in the matter of the pageants. I can conceive that nothing could be positively more effective, more educationally advantageous than such an exhibition properly utilised and properly constructed. It is about the pageant that I want to say a few words, to ask a few questions, for I should like to learn more as to its character. I should like to know whether the pageant is to be a sort of panorama of waving plumes, landing of conquerors and things of that description, or whether we are going to have possibly something of another kind than we have had for many years in our schools? In the growth of the Empire is anything going to be shown of our industrial growth on the humane side? For example, will the working classes who may be viewing this pageant be given a particular education as to what processes their fathers have gone through up to the present industrial system? Shall we have in the coal section a picture of the collier of 100 or 150 years ago with an iron collar round his neck and a similar one round his ankle? Shall we also have anything elaborating the condition of the miner of this country? I think it is very necessary, if I might so suggest to the Front Bench, that the workers should be given an effective form of pageant so that the education may be of the best description. Is it, I should like to know, also proposed in the pageant to give anything in the character of political education? In these days when attempts are being made from this side and opposed—as usual—by the other side, to widen the franchise, and when there is a suggestion to give all of the age of 21 the vote, shall we have in the pageant some demonstration of the fighting which has been made in order to bring the franchise of the country up to that stage? I should like to know whether we shall have, for example, a pictorial representation of Baird and Hardie being executed in the Broad Street of Stirling for daring to ask for a vote.

I would like to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, whether it will be in order for other hon. Members to travel over the whole range of human activities, and ask whether they will be included in the pageant?

I will call the hon. Member to order when it is necessary.

I was going to suggest that in the trade union section we might have a picture of—

Would it be in order to suggest that a film representation of Jack Cade should be added?

It is a question of degree, and it must be left to the discretion of the Chair.

I look upon this as a serious matter, and I am quite in earnest, and these matters are quite as important as some things upon which so much emphasis has been laid by hon. Members on the opposite side. On the question of trade union development there ought to be some declaration in the pageant to the hundreds of thousands who will witness it, that only a matter of one hundred years ago the men who dared to be trade unionists ran the danger of transportation. I hope we shall have in this pageant something which will give to the people who witness it an idea of the contrast within the British Empire, not only in the matter of production, but in the equally vital matter of human affairs. We might introduce a picture of a colliers' row in Lanarkshire and compare it with a house in Park Lane. There might also be a representation of a man who is earning 15s. a week contrasted with the man who has, perhaps, £10,000 or £100,000 a week.

I think the hon. Member is now travelling a little wide of the question before the Committee.

I had no intention of doing so. I thought I was dealing entirely with human matters upon which all hon. Members were deeply interested.

I desire to protest against what I think is an offence against good taste. After employing very eminent architects to design these buildings, I understand that they are to be placarded with advertisements for cheap beer, and I think the Minister might have used his influence to prevent this.

I do not know whether the last speaker but one is a Scotsman, but at any rate he seemed to be a man who wanted a lot for his 1s. 6d. If he can get all he has asked for in the pageant, he is going to be very lucky indeed. The estimate before us is for £118,000 and it comes under two distinct headings. The first is an item for the British Government exhibit and the second is for displays. I rise not to oppose this Vote, but to support it, because I think the majority of hon. Members of this House support the British Government in having their own exhibit. I wish, however, to ask one or two questions. Under Sub-head (B) (Displays) they state that £2,500 is required and that it is in order to carry out three proposals. One is:

"It is proposed to arrange under the auspices of the British Government, a series of military massed band performances, a pageant of Empire, and a torchlight tattoo by the Services. These displays will be held in the Wembley Stadium for the use of which no charge will be made to the Government."

The sum of £2,500 will not go very far in that case. The question I want to raise is, have the Government taken into account the necessity of spending a certain sum on publicty for these shows, because after all if you are going to have a display of that kind it is necessary that wide publicity should be given to it by posters not only in this country but all over the world. If you spend the whole of the £2,500 in this way it will be totally inadequate for publicity. It also says on page 19 of these Estimates that

"Charges for admission will be made."

They do not say what charges will be made to the people who desire to go in to see these displays, and I ask the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade if he can say what charges are going to be made to the public who wish to see these shows. In view of the fact that these displays are going to be in the nature of a pageant of the Empire, I want the Government, in making these charges, to consider the wisdom of having two different charges, one for adults, and half price for children, because I think it is necessary that all the children of the Empire should have an opportunity of seeing these displays. To summarise my points, I want to ask the Minister, in his reply, to say how much the Government is going to spend on publicity and advertising these displays, what charges are they going to make for admission to> these displays, and are they prepared to charge half price to children.

I am sure the Committee will not expect me to take up every point that has been raised since my right hon. Friend replied to a number of questions that have been put before. I think the point raised by the hon. Member who has just sat down was dealt with, or promised to be dealt with, by my right hon. Friend.

At any rate, it is hardly a question to put to a Minister who is not responsible for the arrangements at the Exhibition. As a matter of fact, the Exhibition is not a Government concern at all, because it is in the hands of a board of management who are not running it for the Government, but for guarantors outside the Government much more than within the Government. It is not for me to dictate or direct the Exhibition authorities upon the matters which have been referred to. One hon. Member below the Gangway suggested that a Committee should be set up on this subject. We are now approaching the opening day, and we are within a very few days of that event, and to set up a Committee to consider whether we should change the place is something which we cannot consider for one moment. This question has already been dealt with.

Questions have been raised with regard to the pageant and the Government exhibits. The matter and the programme with regard to the pageant I alluded to at the opening of my speech some time ago. The pageant has been arranged under the supervision of capable advisers, and pageant masters are taking charge of it. To give a description of the various episodes in that pageant is quite outside my province. I do not claim to be a pageant master, nor can I go as far as the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Dickson), who has given to the Committee his idea of what in his opinion a pageant should be like, and one that perhaps many of us would understand and appreciate if a pageant on the lines of his suggestion could be shown, especially to the industrial workers of this generation. With regard to the exhibits, the most I can say on this occasion is that models illustrative of the work of the Departments of State concerned in the Empire, of oversea settlement, of the Services, and of various phases of health questions in the Empire, will be shown in the Government pavilion. The Oversea Settlement Committee have been allotted a sum of money for the purpose of having a department in the pavilion and a kiosk outside, and they will show models and illustrations in connection with the work of oversea settlement as it affects various parts of the Empire.

Will there be someone always there, on behalf of the Oversea Settlement Committee, to give information to visitors who ask for it?

Yes, someone will be there from the beginning to the end of the Exhibition, in connection with the Overseas Settlement Committee, who will distribute all available up-to-date information to assist those who wish to take advantage of settlement overseas. As to forestry, a sum was allotted to the Forestry Commission, but I understand they preferred to take a general share in the exhibition] and co-operate with various parts of the Empire in what is to be done with regard to forestry. I am not prepared on this occasion to go into the details of the exhibits of the various departments, but I have seen many of those exhibits, and I am satisfied that they will be worthy of the country and of the Empire.

My hon. Friend will have noticed that I said that I am not the Minister in charge of the exhibition, and that the Government are not responsible for everything that takes place at the exhibition. I have no knowledge of the advertisements of cheap beer to which my hon. Friend referred. Many people would like to find cheap beer in this country, but, as I have never tasted it in my life, I am not very anxious on that particular point. At the same time, I think it should be brought to the attention of the exhibition authorities that posters which are annoying, or which may not be so picturesque as one would wish, should be considered by the authorities, and I will bring that matter to their attention at the earliest moment.

I think that if the hon. Member will read the last paragraph of the Estimate dealing with this matter, he will find that that is so.

Reference has just been made to the question of profits, and I think it is reasonable to assume that, as any profits are to be shared in by the Government, if there are any losses the Government will be called upon, on a later Vote, to make up those losses. I want to suggest, with reference to the point raised by an hon. Member below the Gangway, that, if a Committee could not be set up, at least some Government representation should be secured on the committee responsible for the exhibition. There are two other points which I should like to submit to the hon. Gentleman. With regard to the question of publicity, may I suggest that the Overseas Trade Department might consult with the Board of Education as to what steps can be taken, by means of grants to local authorities, to enable school children from many parts of the country to visit the exhibition at reasonable charges? If the chief object of this Exhibition is that it should be a means of education, I know of no better way of securing that than making it easy for school children to attend the exhibition. I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman if he will also consider whether some revenue could not be derived from the unearned increment that has accrued in the case of site values in the neighbourhood of the exhibition. Those who are already dealing with this problem know full well that, since steps were taken to commence the building of the exhibition, and with its development, the price of land in the neighbourhood of Wembley has increased to an alarming extent, and I would suggest that those responsible might well consider some method of attaching or getting part of that unearned increment towards the objects of the exhibition.

I only intervene in this Debate once more for the purpose of dealing with a question which was asked of me a short time ago, and on which I did not like at the moment to give a decided opinion, be cause, although I knew of the particular authority which I have now obtained from the Library, I thought it better to be strictly accurate before I made any definite pronouncement. I am able to tell the House now that there is no doubt whatever that this exhibition could not be kept open on Sundays if a charge were made for admission, for the reason that, if it is conducted in the way that we anti- cipate, it will be a place of amusement. The point was decided by a case relating to the Brighton Aquarium. A charge was made for admission, although the only amusement, except a little sacred music, was the opportunity of seeing the fish fed at 4 o'clock. That was held to be a public amusement, and, therefore, although the Judges expressed great regret, because, to quote their own words, they said they thought the object of the entertainment was to keep people out of the public houses, nevertheless they felt bound to say that the case fell within the Statute of 1780, and, consequently, penalties were imposed.

I do not want to prolong the Debate unduly, but I have the opportunity of speaking again for a few minutes, and I will put two specific questions to the Minister in charge of this Estimate. I maintain that even private Members in this House are entitled to replies when they raise questions on Estimates which involve the expenditure of the taxpayers' money. The Minister simply swept me on one side and took no notice at all of my questions. I am going to put my questions to him again, in case he did not hear them last time. The first is, are the Government going to expend any money whatsoever on publicity—that is to say, on propaganda, advertising to the world that the British Government has an exhibit at this exhibition? If so, where does that money-come from? Is it included in this Estimate, and, if so, how much is it intended to spend on publicity? The second question is, how much do the Government intend to charge for admission to the Stadium for these displays which the Government are organising? Surely they know. Have they not yet made up their minds as to how much they are going to charge, when they are organising these displays now? Am I to take it that they do not know? If that be so, I should like to have an explanation of what is stated on page 19 of the Estimate, namely:

"It is estimated that the total expenditure, estimated at £85,000, will be covered by receipts."

How do they know it is going to be covered by receipts if they do not know how much they are going to charge for admission? They must know, and, that being so, I think the Minister in charge of this Estimate should tell the Com- mittee. I want him to state how much the Government are going to charge for admission to these shows, and also whether he is prepared to make a statement to the effect that children will be admitted to these displays at half price.

I am sure the Committee will appreciate the importance of the questions which have been raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, but, apparently, he was not here when I made my previous speech.

My hon. and gallant Friend knows that the Government are not responsible for the whole of the finance, and, that being so, the Estimate we are now considering is for a particular and specific purpose. In answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's question, no Minister could state the amount that will be spent on publicity, because the Government's guarantee was for the purpose of ensuring the success of the exhibition, and that guarantee had the effect of bringing forth other guarantees. Now that we are satisfied that the exhibition will be completed and opened on the 23rd April, arrangements are being made for publicity. The Government cannot say to other people, "You find the money, and you must allocate so much," because they would promptly say to us, "You had better find the money." Therefore, my answer is that that side of the question, namely, advertising, is being dealt with, and I may inform my hon. and gallant Friend that there is a representative in America at this moment for that purpose.

My hon. and gallant Friend might just as well ask me what I am going to do when I go abroad. I assume that he is doing his duty.

Has the right hon. Gentleman no control over this gentleman who is in America?

No more than we have over other people whom we appoint to do a job, and whom we expect to do it; and, equally, we are not entitled to reflect upon them so long as they do their job. This gentleman has not been in America long, he is doing his work, and it is not for us to allow anything in the nature of an aspersion to be cast upon him.

I did not make any aspersion; I wanted to know if he is responsible to the Government or to the private people who are running the exhibition.

His duty would be to say in various parts of America all the nice things about the British Empire that my hon. and gallant Friend says here. With regard to the charges for admission to the stadium—another very important item—I am quite sure, having regard to the pressing urgency of the question, that my hon. and gallant Friend will be delighted to know that children will be admitted at half price. The charges for admission vary from 2s. to 10s. 6d.— children half price.

I asked a question of the Parliamentary Secretary just now as to whether, if there is a profit from the exhibition, the Exchequer shares in that profit? The hon. Gentleman referred me to the last paragraph on page 19, but, on looking at it, I think it only refers to the profits on the displays in the stadium. May I again put my question? At the end of the exhibition, if there is a profit on the whole, does the Exchequer get a share?

I thought the hon. Member was alluding to the display and the receipts from that quarter, and that is why I said it was in the last paragraph. With regard to the wider point that he raised, I believe the arrangement is, that if there are losses from the exhibition, they shall be distributed amongst all the guarantors in ratio to their guarantees, but that any profits should be devoted to public objects.

To whom will the buildings in the exhibition belong—to the Government or to the owners of the land?

Question put, and agreed to.

Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Compensation, Etc

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the payment of Compensation for Criminal Injuries, Medical and Nursing Expenses of Crown Employees who have been maliciously injured, Advances in respect of prospective Awards of Compensation for Criminal Injuries and of Arrears of Rent and other sums payable under the Land Act, 1923, of the Irish Free State, and Grant to Refugees for the Relief of Distress."

This Vote raises a very large sum of money, and I was anxious that some Minister should rise and offer a few words to justify the expenditure. I do not think the Committee realises the very large sum of British money which is being poured out to-day to the inhabitants of Ireland under these Estimates. The original Estimate, of which this is a Supplementary, was for some £3,000,000. This Estimate, together with the original Estimate, will set aside £5,000,000 of the British taxpayers' money for the inhabitants of Ireland who suffered injury during the years preceding peace. Contrast the treatment these individuals have received with the treatment meted out to men and women who lost life or property during the War. Parliament set aside a definite sum to compensate them for the loss of their property through enemy action, and many of our constituents to-day are unable to get the money they lost because the Government has definitely set aside so much and no more for compensation. A different principle has been adopted towards people in Ireland, and in the next Vote which is to be put from the Chair we are to be asked to vote another sum of money for the North of Ireland.

I wish to ask the Government spokesmen whether these large sums of money are going to be paid out in the coming year? Last year and this year there have been paid out to inhabitants of Ireland for damage done to their property and life a sum of practically £13,000,000. When the original Estimate was before the House a much smaller sum was held out as the price to be paid for settling the Irish trouble. I wish to ask what safeguard there is that the British taxpayers' money is not being poured out unnecessarily. We are all anxious that justice should be done in every case, but the more money we pour out to Ireland the more they have always demanded. The claims seem to be mounting up week by week and month by month. My only object in rising was to ask the Government whether they are satisfied that the interests of the taxpayer are duly safeguarded and whether this large liability is going to continue next year?

The Treaty provides a date before which the British Government is liable for injury and subsequent to which liability rests with the Irish Government. I am interested in the case of a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary who was seriously injured in Ireland in the course of his duties. An award was made granting him something like £1,000. Not long since I applied to the Treasury for payment of the sum. He had been kept off by the Treasury on the ground that it was an obligation of the Irish Free State. The injury was prior to 1921, which I think is the dividing line between the liability of the Free State and the British Government. A comparatively small advance, £200 or something of that kind, has been made. He is quite incapable of doing anything as-he is so badly injured. In the last letter I had on the subject, it was stated that this award was under review and that the Free State was being pressed to pay the sum. It may be all very well as between the Government and the Free State to try to thrust this liability on the Free State, and I hope they may succeed in doing it. I doubt if they will have a great measure of success, but that is not the point. Will the Financial Secretary give me the actual date of the dividing line, and will he inform me as to what steps I am to take on behalf of my constituent to get this money? It has been owing for at least three years, and it is very desirable in the interests of the poor man, who cannot fight his own case, that he should get all the assistance he can from the Government. The hon. Gentleman may take it that the injury was anterior to any liability incurred by the Free State.

This Vote has no bearing whatever on the subject the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) raised. The Government could not possibly say at this stage what the position will be with regard to the money that is involved in the point he raised. I hope we shall not on this Vote have any discussion which would be likely to increase the difficulties with regard to the question of the boundary. That is at the moment the subject of negotiation, and I should deplore anything being said which would render the possibility of a settlement on that very troublesome question more difficult. It was originally estimated that the whole of the money required under this Vote would amount to £3,075,000. That, we anticipate, will not be exceeded, but the expenditure is heavier under one head than another, and the object of the Vote is to transfer a surplus from one to the other. That is the short explanation of the Estimate. With regard to the question put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, I think it had better be directed to someone on that side of the House. I know nothing of the details as to the point he raised, but there is a Committee considering such cases as that and the Government do not interfere.

I can answer my hon. and gallant Friend. I have repeatedly stated during the last year that if horn. Members who know cases like that would apply to me, as Chairman of the Irish Grants Committee, I should be glad to give them any information and any assistance. The date he is looking for is, I think, 21st July, 1921. His constituents can perfectly easily get assistance from my Committee if he will write me a letter.

May I ask to whom a person is to apply who feels aggrieved under the operation of the Land Purchase Act passed by the Irish Parliament last year? I have a case where a clergyman is the owner of property which has been in his family for some generations and it is now being compulsorily acquired by the Irish Land Department. He is being bought out at 15 years' purchase and he has to redeem his tithe at 18 years' purchase.

There is a provision for advances to people under this very Act. It is surely the duty of someone to be in a position to protect these unfortunate people who are being unjustly treated and, if the right hon. Gentleman will refer to page 29, he will find that £25,000 is being allocated for the purposes of advances to this class of person and I should like to know to whom they are to apply for protection. They are British subjects who are being unfairly treated.

7.0 P.M.

This does not apply for the very obvious reason that the people concerned are the Irish Free State. I know nothing of the merits of any interpretation. It is a matter for the Irish Free State and not for this House.

Then the Government is in this position, that they may have advances to people who are in need and that the Irish Free State will refuse to pay them anything whatever for their land. Therefore, it is a loss to the British Treasury. Here the Government have made provision for an advance to people whose land is being compulsorily acquired. What steps are they taking to see that these people are getting fair treatment from the Irish Parliament?

Again, it is a very delicate question. If we were attempting to interfere with Dominion rights, it would be resented, and we have to be equally careful with the Irish Free State. We have to keep that clearly in our minds. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any question in which he feels injustice has been done, I am quite sure, if he sends it to the Colonial Office, they would send it on to the Irish Free State, not as a right, but because the Irish Free State would naturally be as anxious as we are to see justice done.

This grant that we are asked to vote is for criminal injuries compensation. Am I to understand that this is Government money, and why is my constituent driven to go to a Grants Committee? I claim this money as a right. The date given is July, 1921, and the case I have in my mind is a case in which injury was sustained prior to that date. Under the then law, the sum has been ascertained by the appropriate Court in Ireland, and why am I driven to a Grants Committee? I do not want a grant. I want payment of the compensation awarded. My hon. Friend who has been head of this Committee has been very nice, and he says, "I will make you a present of something on account." That is not what I want. I want the money. I thought the case was perfectly simple and clear. Up to July, 1921, the British Government were responsible. Why is it that I have to go to this Grants Committee? All my papers are in order, my client is within his right, and the amount is ascertained. I want the law carried out as it was according to the Statute. Why was it therefore that he did not get the money at once? I do not want something on account. The poor fellow cannot stir, or move. It is miserable. The party opposite fully appreciate what it is to be out of work even if you are in sound health. It is infinitely worse if you are a cripple.

The British Government have set up a Grants Committee to make advances on account of payments due from the Irish Free State, but it cannot be denied that the whole position is unsatisfactory. These sums are on account of personal injuries which are due on awards made. These persons are not having a final settlement of their case, but only some advance on account of the liabilities of the Free State. On the Report stage, I propose to say something on the larger issue. Will the Colonial Secretary do his utmost to request payment of these claims from the Free State and relieve these unfortunate applicants of their anxiety, so that their compensation may be paid finally in full? With regard to the matter raised by my hon. Friend opposite, of course there were certain obligations under the Treaty in regard to the Land Act at the time the Free State was set up. The British Government have responsibilities to see that those obligations are carried out. If the hon. Member's case comes under the Act passed by the British Parliament and taken over by the Free State, then the British Government are responsible for seeing that his case is properly protected and dealt with by the Free State Government. At the time of the Treaty, and when the Irish Parliament Act was passed, there was a large amount of land in Ireland which was not being sold under the State Purchase scheme. If there be a case under that category, and if that land unsold was not subject to any Act of Parliament at the time the Free State was set up, then what the Colonial Secretary has stated is perfectly correct. This Parliament has abrogated its rights, and handed over that class of case to the discretion and wisdom of the Free State Government. I trust, therefore, that the hon. Member opposite is protected by an Act of this Parliament.

The answer is that if he will send details—on the general evidence submitted it does look as if the Colonial Office were somewhat responsible—and submit the particular case, I will see to it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Northern Ireland, Grants-In-Aid

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £943.336, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Grants-in-Aid of Northern Ireland, including Compensation for Damage arising out of the disturbed condition of Ireland and Provision of Buildings and Assignment of Assets under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920."

Before this Vote is passed, I and my colleague who is here to-night (Mr. Cahir Healy) would like some explanation from the Colonial Secretary about this grant of £943,000. As I take it from the figures, a sum of £1,700,000 is being given as a grant-in aid to the Government of Northern Ireland by reason of the abnormal circumstances which have existed there, and to assist the Northern Government to keep order. I presume that is the object. On the last Vote the Colonial Secretary seemed to be speaking to Members sitting on this bench when he said nothing should be said in this Debate to render his position more difficult. I am in entire sympathy with that sentiment, but a duty to the people whom I represent devolves upon me frankly to state to this Committee that we cannot agree to these grants-in-aid to the Northern Government for several reasons. In the first place, the services for which these grants are given are absolutely unnecessary. They are a gross waste of public money. At the present time, when there are tens of thousands of men who sacrificed their all in the War walking the streets of London and other great cities and towns begging for bread, here is £1,700,000 being given away for these services.

The hon. Member must remember that this is a Supplementary Estimate. The House has already passed the Grant for £1,700,000, and he must restrict himself to the increase which is now being asked for. He cannot reopen the original question.

I understand that there is, first of all, an extra of £43,000, then there is £500,000, and again there is £400,000 fresh money asked for. Whether it be £400, £40,000 or £4,000,000, I say it is absolutely unnecessary and a waste of public money. Why do I say that? The object for which this money was given and for which this money is proposed to be given is for the upkeep and maintenance of an armed force in Northern Ireland.

On a point of Order. There is no sum granted in this Vote for any armed force.

The Vote which is for new Services is restricted to buildings and the assignment of assets to Northern Ireland. The hon. Member can raise a question of policy there, but he cannot raise the question of policy on the Grants-in-Aid.

May I call your attention to the fact that this is a statutory claim? Provision is made under the Act of 1920, Section 34, for payments, in respect of charges on the Consolidated Fund and so on, of such sum as the Joint Exchequer Board may certify to be necessary for the purpose of providing buildings and site and for the accommodation of the Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland. I submit that the only discussion possible is as to that amount. It is provided by the Statute that there shall be a payment, and the Committee has decided that the proper amount is £400,000. I suggest that the question of policy is closed on this Supplementary Estimate and that we can only deal with the Statutory payment. If the hon. Member wishes to say that the amount is too large or too small he is in order, but there is no question of policy involved, because the House has already passed an Act providing that some payment shall be made for a specific purpose.

I think the statement of the hon. Member is correct. This is a payment under a Section of a Statute already passed by this House. Therefore, the discussion must be limited to this particular payment under the Statute. We cannot have the policy of the Statute discussed.

Is the amount specified in the Statute? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Part of this Vote is a contribution to the abnormal expenses of Northern Ireland, in which is included the expense to which I have referred, namely, the upkeep of this abnormal force for the existence of which there is no necessity. Never in the history of any civilised community was there such a peaceful condition of affairs as in Northern Ireland at the present time. The Judges of Assize all over the country—

Is there any reference in this Vote to the special constabulary to which the hon. Member is referring?

May I draw attention to the original Estimate, in which it is definitely stated that the grants were made

"as a contribution to the initial abnormal expenses of the Northern Irish Government, mainly for special constabulary and for the relief of unemployment."

The hon. Member may criticise the size of the constabulary, which may account for the increased expenditure.

On a point of Order. Has this Vote anything whatever to do with the special constabulary? This item is in connection with the provisions of certain buildings. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Under Section 34 of the Act of 1920—

The hon. Member is only referring to the third item, whereas the reference I made was to the first item.

On a point of Order. May I call attention to the fact that item "A" has nothing whatever to do with the special constabulary. It will be in the recollection of hon. Members that when the Irish Treaty Bill was passed there was a large amount of unemployment in Ireland, and it was arranged that a grant of £500,000 should be made to provide for the abnormal expenditure of the Northern Government. The whole of that £500,000 was not spent, but a sum of £250,000 was spent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] This is a point of Order. If hon. Members consult the report of the Colwyn Committee they will find that what I am stating is correct. That grant was made in order to provide schemes for dealing with unemployment. Schemes were taken in hand, but the whole amount was not spent. This is a sum to enable the Government to complete the works which they had in hand.

I do not know what is the point of Order raised by the hon. Member opposite. Surely I shall be in order if I criticise the amount of money that is being devoted to this force, the extent of this force, and the purpose for which the money has been voted. I cannot give the Committee the exact figures, but I can give the approximate figures of the force that is being kept up under this fund. I am not exaggerating when I say that there are 50,000 or 60,000 armed men kept up in a country that is absolutely crimeless. That is not for the purpose of keeping order. It is kept up for another purpose. It is kept up, not for the purpose of implementing the Treaty, but of preventing the Treaty being implemented. We have been told repeatedly at elections and other times and by the Leaders of the Unionist party in Northern Ireland that what they have they hold. This money is being voted to keep a force in possession of territories which rightfully belong to the Free State. That is why I consider it to be my duty to place the position before the Committee before this money is voted.

Is the Government or this Committee going to vote money for the purpose of preventing the Treaty from being carried out. We have had declarations from all sides of the House and from Leaders of the Opposition who were lately Members of the Treasury bench that we are all anxious that this Treaty should be implemented to the full. I warn the Committee that if these moneys are voted it will not be to assist in the implementing of the Treaty, but in preventing it from coming into force. I would ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether this is to be the end of these Grants-in-Aid. Are the grants to come to an end if this Vote is passed? I do not know whether I should be in order in discussing the Report issued the other day by the Colwyn Committee. How is the contribution of the six counties towards the Exchequer to be fixed for next year? How is it to be ascertained? It is to be ascertained, according to the Report, by finding the balance between the expenditure and the income of the Northern Government. What does that mean? It means that if the Northern Government spend enough money they will have no balance and there will be no contribution, although under the Treaty and under the Act of 1920 their liability was fixed at almost £8,000,000. This contribution was reduced by the Joint Exchequer Board to £6,000,000, is reduced by these Votes to something over £2,000,000, and under the Colwyn Committee it will be reduced to nil. In view of these facts and unless we get a clear statement from the Colonial Secretary as to whether this is to be the final Vote for the upkeep of a force for which there is no necessity, I ask the Committee not to pass the Vote.

I crave the indulgence of the Committee while I address it for the first time. I have heard the declaration of the Colonial Secretary and his appeal that nothing should be said to-day which will make more difficult the negotiations that he has in hand at the moment. I do not think that anything I have to say will have that effect. Those hon. Members who read the daily Press will have noticed certain recent happenings in Belfast. They will have noted that a sectarian police force has been set up there, subsidised by moneys voted by this House. The Home Secretary of the Northern Government recently spoke at a meeting inaugurating a lodge of the Loyal Orange Order, for police.

The hon. Member cannot discuss the question of the police force in Northern Ireland. I have had an opportunity of looking into this Estimate, which is only in connection with the grant of £500,000 for unemployment relief. Therefore, nothing will be in order on this first item in regard to the police force. The other two items deal with malicious injuries and the provision of buildings. The hon. Member must restrict himself to these subjects.

On a point of Order. May I draw attention to the original Estimate? [HON. MEMBERS: "You have already done so."] The original Estimate was for £1,700,000. That was made up by a sum of £1,500,000 in respect of the expenses of the Northern Ireland Special Constabularly, and the increase under Section "A" may well be due solely and entirely—[HON. MEMBERS: "No !"]— may be due, because we have had no explanation—to the circumstances with which the hon. Member wishes to deal. Therefore, I submit that my hon. Friend is in order.

I have looked at the original Estimate and Have considered the point made by the hon. Member. If he will read the particulars of this Supplementary Estimate, he will see that it is perfectly clear that this is in respect of a sum of £200,000 which formed part of the £500,000 which is solely to be devoted to unemployment relief works.

Might I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone (Mr. Healy) that he would serve his own purpose, with which I fully sympathise, by waiting until we get to the second item of the Vote. It is clear, in view of the ruling from the Chair, that it would be impossible to discuss any question except unemployment on this Item, but I take it that Items "B" and "C" will afford an opportunity of discussing some of the questions which my hon. Friend wishes to raise.

We are also discussing Items "B" and "C," because I have put the whole Question. Item "B" is restricted to malicious injuries inflicted on property and persons and Item "0" is devoted to the matters there mentioned. Anything relating to those two points will be in order.

I will turn then to a question in reference to these Estimates for which the Government of Northern Ireland are responsible, that is in reference to the claims for malicious injuries. May I refer to the speech of Captain W. H. Fyffe, of Omagh, who happens to be a prominent officer in the special Ulster Constabulary. It was delivered in the Orange Hall, Dromore, on the 29th February this year. He said:

"Dromore has made itself historic as being the first place in the six counties to show a determination to put an end to the murder gang."

Prior to the incident to which he refers, there had been no murders in Dromore, and there were no murders in Dromore after that date. The incident to which he refers is the murder in April, 1921, of three men, named Doherty, Slevin and Devine, who were taken out of their homes and murdered at the street corner. The coroner, himself, possibly, an Orangeman, said for the first time in his life, as a Tyrone man, he felt ashamed—

The hon. Member is making a maiden speech, and I do not want to interrupt him, but he must obey my ruling. The subject to which he is referring is not in order.

Am I not in order in trying to connect the malicious injuries with the allocation of money to the police force?

I am anxious to prevent a misunderstanding, but may I point out that this Item B is in respect of malicious injuries, and am I not right in saying that the Malicious Injuries Act, which is in force in Ireland, excludes from its scope injuries done by the Crown forces acting under the prerogative of the Crown, and if that be right, there can be nothing relating to the police in the provision of compensation for malicious injuries.

May I put it that out of this particular incident there arose malicious injury claims which were determined in the County Court. Civilians were injured on that occasion and they made claims, as well as the relatives of the people who were murdered. Therefore it is apparent that this matter is in order. Several witnesses, as well as the police, when the claims for compensation came to be heard, proved that there had been no firing in Dromore at all except that of the "B" police. I would also like to refer to the gerrymandering that is being carried on, under the auspices of the Northern Government, in reference to the electoral areas in Tyrone and Fermanagh. I think that that also comes under this head.

Is not this a direct attack on the "Ulster Government, which it is not right to make? It is not the subject under discussion. As a Scotsman I am not going to sit by and—

The hon. Member must not make any attacks on the Government of Northern Ireland. That would be out of order. He cannot discuss the administration of Northern Ireland.

I will try to discuss it without being out of order. Prior to 1921 the county councils of Tyrone and Fermanagh, on the basis of proportional representation, elected a majority of nationalists. Under the gerrymandering scheme in the electoral areas, which has now been introduced to some extent by a particular Department—

The hon. Member must obey my ruling. The word "gerrymandering" is an aspersion on the administration of the Government of Northern Ireland which he must not make.

I was referring to a scheme which was promoted by certain persons in Tyrone and Fermanagh of gerrymandering—

The hon. Member must withdraw that expression. He has now repeated it twice.

On a point of Order. If the hon. Member did not use the expression in reference to the Government, but in reference to certain individuals who were promoting this policy, he is not casting any aspersion on the Government of Northern Ireland.

If the hon. Member says that he was not referring to the Government, but to non-official individuals, he is not out of order.

On a point of Order. Should I be in order in criticising the legislation of Northern Ireland?

The hon. Member is not in Order in discussing any matters of administration for which a Minister in Northern Ireland is responsible. That is the ruling of the Speaker in this House.

Part of this abnormal expenditure is incurred in connection with the keeping of certain men imprisoned in Northern Ireland. Under the shadow of the Union Jack these men are entitled to get the benefit of Magna Carta, yet they have been in custody since May, 1922, without charge and without trial, and they cannot procure a trial, and cannot have any charge made against them. In May, 1922, 520 Nationalists were rounded up in the six counties, of whom 320 are still detained. If the like of this were to happen in the Balkan States, Members of this House would be seething with indignation, and the newspapers would spill plenty of ink and ask for more destroyers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cruisers!"] There is an Advisory Committee, but the men have no confidence in the Committee.

The hon. Member is doing the very thing that I told him he must not do. He had better raise the subjects which he wants to raise on some other Vote on which they might be in order.

I will do my best to keep within the limits of your ruling which I do not wish to transgress, but I cannot help remarking the fervour which my hon. Friends opposite, assisted by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), have shown in endeavouring to burke discussion on this Vote. I should have thought that they would welcome discussion, but apparently they have no desire to do so, and accordingly I should like to say a word on the item for "Compensation for damages in Northern Ireland, Grant-in-Aid." The additional sum required is £500,000. I do not object to this amount though it is large, but I do feel very strongly, with the information which has been given to me, that this money is not being given—the Government have very little to do with it—in a manner of equity and equal justice towards all parties. With your permission, I may say something on that subject. Take, for instance, a single instance. There were three young men killed in Cushendall. There was an inquiry ordered by the late Government or the Government which preceded it. My right hon. Friend opposite had something to do with the sending over of a Commissioner to investigate the matter. The Committee will be surprised to hear that the Report made by the Commissioner, who was appointed by the Home Secretary to this country, has never been published in this House. A second and more astonishing fact is that the mothers of these three boys who were killed have been left to this day without a penny compensation for the loss of their breadwinners.

This is only a more astute way of putting the same thing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

If I did want to put anything astutely to this Committee, I should consult my hon. Friend who is such a master of the forms and rules of this House. I hope that he will not indulge in any further disorderly interruptions. What I put to the Committee is this. We are asked to vote this large sum of £500,000, as compensation for damages in Northern Ireland, and surely I am entitled to ask how this money is going to be used, whether well or ill, whether in justice and equity and equality or in injustice and inequity and inequality.

On a point of Order. This Vote is to be a final contribution to the Government of Northern Ireland in settling the contribution for malicious injuries to persons and property. I submit that on this Vote we can only question the amount. We cannot go into the question of the administration, or whether somebody was killed, as is alleged, in Ireland, for whom compensation has not been paid. That is entirely out of order.

The second item, I think, is sufficiently large to permit some discussion on the policy of voting the money at all, but it is not in order to discuss the administration of that money by the Government of Northern Ireland when it is granted.

Is the hon. Member entitled to bring up cases which were tried before the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland? In the cases to which he refers the persons brought the necessary proceedings under the Malicious Injuries Act, and judgment was given against them. Is the hon. Member entitled to express an opinion on the conduct of the Judge in this matter?

I do not question the action of the Lord Chief Justice, because the Lord Chief Justice, I understand, dismissed the case on a point of law. But will it be contended by the hon. Member that when money is voted by this House for the compensation of relatives, mothers whose sons have been murdered, who have not been compensated to the extent of a penny, the question of the administration of this £500,000 and the protection of the lives and liberties of the people of Northern Ireland cannot be discussed here? If that be the contention, I do not know what safeguard there is.

Yes, Sir. I submit that what my hon. Friend has said is a clear disregard of your ruling. He wants to go into the administration of the money, which, I understand, you rule to be out of order.

My ruling is that the policy of voting the money can be commented upon in view of the large increase in the sum. The actual administration cannot. It can only be used as an illustration of the policy.

I think I have some reason to complain of my hon. and learned Friend. Whenever my hon. and learned Friend rises, I listen to him with patience and some sympathy, as I did this afternoon when he raised a question in which he is interested; but now, I because I am fighting for three mothers left without their sons, my hon. and learned Friend is taking all steps to trip me up from the narrowest and meanest point of view. I merely gave my illustration in strict accord with your ruling, as I understand it. I give another, as to the policy of granting this large sum of money. There were, I think, five or six people murdered in the middle of the night. It was a famous case. The name of the people was McMahon. One of the persons murdered—it was a public-house —was the father. His relatives applied for compensation. The compensation given has been £150. In face of this method of denying, or of minimising, the amount to be given to those people who were the victims of the civil war, done to death in all cases to maintain one particular faith and one particular form of politics, I shall resist the grant to the Northern Government of this monstrous sum of £500,000.

It may be convenient if I intervene at this point. I ought to say, in the first place, that a great many irrelevant statements have been made in the course of the discussion. I want to keep within strict limits, if I can. All these Estimates are in accordance with an agreement made; they are the result of arbitration, and, what will be, I hope, a point of rejoicing to every Member of the Committee, they are final. The sum required in this Estimate is the balance of the amount agreed upon to deal with a very awkward problem in Belfast, resulting in the quarrel between two sections in the dockyard, and this, of course, will close the amount as far as we are concerned. If the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor) will submit to me the point he mentioned just now, I will inquire into it at once.

The second point is with regard to "B," under which we require £500,000. It relates to malicious injuries in Northern Ireland, and I do not want to dwell very much on that, because there is a great deal, as the Committee has already discovered of inflammable material about, and I want to avoid it as much as possible. With regard to the last item, it is sufficient for me to say that the Northern Government found themselves, after separation from the South, without any buildings in which to conduct the operations of their Government. They were without prisons or asylums, and even in Northern Ireland, apparently, they must have both. Item C. covers the expenditure in that direction. We have had a very interesting Debate, more by way of points of order than anything else. There have been very few questions to the Government, and I trust now the Committee will give us this Vote.

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £400,000.

I have been endeavouring to ascertain how it arises that there is this charge upon the Treasury, and it seems that the Committee is parting with this Vote without having elicited any adequate explanation. The statement as to Item C is much in excess of any other part of the United Kingdom.

Therefore, it comes as a great surprise to me to find, after Home Rule has been granted to Northern Ireland, that we should be called upon to vote £400,000 for new prisons and asylums in Northern Ireland, and I confess that the explanation which the hon. Gentleman has given does not seem to me to be satisfactory. Obviously, the buildings which were in use in the days of the Union were still available for the purposes of the prison population and the asylum population of Northern Ireland. Have they been building new prisons? Have they been building new asylums? An hon. Friend near me states that they have been closing them. He has, no doubt, some first-hand acquaintance with the subject. In these circumstances, the hon. Gentleman should tell us what the buildings' are, and why they come under Section 34 (1). This seems to be confined to the provision of buildings and their equipment for the accommodation of the Parliament and Public Departments. I did not know that they were providing prisons and asylums for Members of Parliament. The situation seems to be getting worse. I notice the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies is here. He, I believe, is mainly responsible in connection with Northern Ireland, and he, possibly, will be able to give some further and better particulars. I think we ought to hold up the Vote, and, in these circumstances, I beg to propose that it be reduced by £400,000.

I raise this point in no spirit of hostility to the Govern-men, but I think it must be apparent to every Member who has been present at this discussion that there has been a distinct attempt by Ulster Members to burke discussion on this subject. I am within the recollection of the Committee when I say that on several occasions this evening hon. Members on the opposite side have endeavoured to curtail Debate and restrict discussion of this particular Estimate.

The hon. Member thinks it is not on the Estimate. We are now discussing the Estimate; that is the reason we are gathered here this evening. If one analyses the Estimates presented to this Committee during the last two years for large sums of money as Grants-in-Aid to Northern Ireland, it can be clearly shown that the taxpayers of this country have not been fairly treated. Section 34 (1) distinctly states the object for which this money is required, for the equipment and accommodation of Parliament and public Departments. In no spirit of hostility to the Government, many of us have been closely examining these Estimates, and, if the Under-Secretary will make clear the purpose for which he asks the taxpayers of this country to find the large sum of £400,000, I hope he will be able to do that before we go further this evening.

8.0 P.M.

I would not intervene in this discussion but for the remarks made by Gentlemen above the Gangway, who seem to me to show a great disregard for the real purpose which is behind this Amendment moved by my hon. and learned Friend. The members of the Treasury Bench have told us that this money is required for prisons and asylums. If we are to pass this Vote, we have a right to demand some further information as to what this money is being used for. It is not customary for this historic House to surrender wholesale its rights to safeguard the pockets of the taxpayer and to keep that control of the public purse which it has held for centuries. It is not customary for this House to give away that control in spite of gibes from one quarter of the House or violent interruptions from the benches opposite. I believe we are justified in the course we are taking, and hop the Government will see their way to give us some further information as to what this money is being actually used for.

I did not intend to say a single word in this Debate, but I often wonder how it comes about that when anything in the interests of the North of Ireland comes up there should be such a hue and cry about it. Hon. Members opposite know that if this country were getting into the rapids again in any European or any other war, it is the men of Ulster who would come forward on her behalf.

I think the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Vote is treating the Committee with less than the courtesy usually given by Ministers in charge of a Supplementary Estimate. I have seen many Governments on that bench, and some of them I have supported with more or less fidelity and discrimination, and I do not wish to treat the hon. Gentleman, whose geniality we all admire, any worse than any of his predecessors. But I expected, when I ventured to make the appeal I did as to the objects for which the £400,000 under Sub-head C were being asked for, that he would endeavour to give some better explanation than that which he has already given to the Committee. Apparently the explanation he did give was inconsistent with the terms of the Sub-section of the Government of Ireland Act which was mentioned, because, as I have already pointed out, that Sub-section deals solely with buildings for the Parliament and public departments of Northern Ireland.

In order to clear up the point which has been raised, I would say that commitments have been entered into and an agreement was made by this House and we are bound by that agreement. The information at my disposal is to the effect that in 1922 the House voted a sum of £750,000, as the first instalment of a sum of £1,500,000 to be paid to the Government of Northern Ireland in full setlement of all claims. That is in relation to the Item D in this Vote.

With regard to that Item, the information I have to give is that, as I stated, it includes asylums and prisons; but it also includes technical schools and similar colleges which, I understand, the Government of Northern Ireland did not possess.

Let me point out that, under the terms of the Government of Ireland Act, this Sub-section only deals with buildings for public departments. The hon. Gentleman is going beyond the strict reading of that Section. I think we should have some explanation in regard to asylums and prisons, as to why the existing buildings are not adequate for the present conditions of Northern Ireland.

Are we to understand that there are no technical schools or colleges in Northern Ireland? I suggest you should put that question to the representatives of Northern Ireland, and they could not deny that the finest technical school to be found anywhere is in the city of Belfast. Out of my own experience of Northern Ireland I could tell you of many asylums and many prisons, though I have never been in any, and I fail to see that the explanation which has been given is satisfactory. I think inquiries should be made so as to give Members of this House an idea of how the money is to be spent.

I would suggest that a portion of that money is being used to keep up an interment camp at Larne, and that in that prison there are being kept 233 men without trial, and who have no means of release. That is a scandal, and this House should not vote the money for that purpose.

On a point of Order. May I point out that this grant is for the Government of Northern Ireland in final settlement of all claims under Section 34, Sub-section (1) of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. I submit, on a point of Order, that this is a sum we have got to pay, and that we cannot in this Committee refer to the administration of the Government of Northern Ireland.

The internment camp in Larne should be shut down. It is a scandal to find men imprisoned there who, before they were arrested, conducted themselves with perfect order.

The hon. Member is out of Order. He is again discussing the administration of Northern Ireland.

On that point of Order. We are being called upon under this Vote to grant money to the Government of Northern Ireland on the allegation that it is under a statutory obligation. The statutory obligation is under Section 34. We have had a statement by the Under-Secretary in which he says that these buildings have nothing to do with the Houses of Parliament of Northern Ireland, and nothing to do with the public departments, but that they are for certain administrative purposes outside the terms of the Statute. If they are outside the terms of the Statute, then this Committee is under no obligation to vote the money.

This, after all, is the money of the taxpayer, and I remember last year, when hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway on this side of the House were on the other side of the House, and they were then assisting me to find out how money was being spent, I should have expected to have their assistance now in the same way. I have had the assistance of the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. T. Henderson), who is taking up the same position that he took up 12 months ago. I have been asked by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite to refer to Section 69 ( f ). It reads as follows:

"His Majesty may by Orders in Council—"

I do not think it is necessary to read that Section, because it refers to certain things which are not included in this Vote.

I am only following the desire of the hon. and learned Member for Gillingham (Sir G. Hohler) that I should call attention to this Section. I do not wish to read any more than the relevant part of it. It says:

"In particular His Majesty may by any such Order in Council … ( f ) make provision with respect to the transfer and apportionment of any property, assets, rights and liabilities in connection with Irish services and the transfer of the right to recover any taxes charged but not paid before the appointed day; and for apportioning as between the Exchequer of the United Kingdom and the Exchequer of Southern and Northern Ireland, the proceeds of transferred taxes properly attributable to Ireland and levied in respect of the financial year in which the appointed day falls."

It seems to me that there is nothing in this paragraph which has been referred to in the explanation offered. This refers merely to the transfer and apportionment of any property. This is a grant; it cannot come under an apportionment of property if it is a grant.

When I asked the hon. Gentleman what the buildings were, he said that they were prisons and asylums. The only reference to buildings is the reference which I first quoted, namely, the reference in Section 34, Sub-section (1), in which we are told that it is for the provision of buildings, including the sites thereof, and for the accommodation of the Parliaments and public departments in Southern and Northern Ireland. If the Northern Government decided to imprison one-third of the population and thereby to increase very largely the accommodation required, we would be entitled to ask why it was being done and to say that an obligation was being placed on the Treasury here which was never contemplated at the time the Act was passed. That is relevant to the consideration which the hon. Member for Tyrone brought before us, namely, that there is a tremendous prison population in Northern Ireland, and that it was never contemplated when the Act was passed. We are entitled to ask from the Government whether it is because they have, by administrative order, created a tremendous prison population that a new obligation is being placed on the taxpayers of this country.

The very fact that the Under-Secretary for the Homo Department can deal only with prisons and asylums, leads one to suspect that it is owing to these strange conditions that the new claim is made. I am not going to argue that the Northern Government has done anything wrong in imprisoning these people; I am not going to say that they have acted contrary to the public interest or exceeded their powers in any direction. Far be it from me to cast any aspersion upon the Northern Government! But I am entitled to say that if the Northern Government should do these things, it should pay for them with its own money. It is because the Northern Government is seeking to get our money for the purpose of providing prisons for people interned without trial that I object to this bill. There are conditions under which any Government may desire these powers. The Government of this country exercised such powers of internment in time of emergency. I am merely looking at this question from the point of view of the taxpayer of this country, and it is in the interest of the taxpayer of this country that we should demand that no money be paid to the Northern Government for any such purpose, unless there is an expressed statutory obligation upon the Treasury of this country to pay.

Before the Committee parts with this Vote I ask that the hon. Gentleman should make it clear that there is a statutory obligation to pay this money. He has made no such attempt. He began by referring to a sub-head of this Vote with which I never dealt at all. Apparently he had something supplied to him, but when it came to the sub-head with which I was dealing, he seemed to be in a state of abysmal ignorance. I am always supicious when I find Members of the Treasury Bench showing abysmal ignorance. They are usually ignorant when there is something to hide. I have always found that so, whether it was a Liberal or a Tory Government, and now we have a Labour Government. We were told that we were to see a new spirit and a new method. But that was all over in six weeks. It is the old thing. They have succumbed to the traditions which they have inherited. We have been hearing about inheritance all the time, and I am very sorry to see how the ideals of these gentlemen have faded away, and how they have yielded to the usual methods of official reply. Now that there have been opportunities of consultation, and approaches have been made to the

fountain head, I hope we shall hear something.

I notice that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is present. He has taken unusual trouble with the Estimates. I have rarely seen a Financial Secretary who has shown a greater mastery of his Estimates than has the hon. Gentleman. I hope, therefore, that he will be able to enlighten the House. If he cannot do so, the position assumes an even graver aspect. When I find a Welshman disingenuous I am not surprised, but when knowledge is denied to a Scotsman this House must indeed be on its guard. I hope we shall have the explanation required. Failing that, I shall be under the disagreeable necessity of dividing the House—very regrettable under present conditions, because the Prime Minister is being entertained by my countrymen elsewhere, and it is only a sense of public duty that is keeping me from that dinner. I am here in an endeavour to save £400,000 of the taxpayers' money, and I hope one of the two hon. Gentlemen will reply to my points.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £543,336, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 81; Noes, 240.

Division No. 30.]

AYES.

[8.27 p.m.

Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Hillary, A. E.

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Black, J. W.

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Owen, Major G.

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)

Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

Buchanan, G.

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Phillipps, Vivian

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Raffan, P. W.

Chapple, Dr. William A.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

Rea, W. Russell

Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

Kedward, R. M.

Simon, E. D. (Manchester. Withington)

Compton, Joseph

Keens, T.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Comyns-Carr, A. S.

Kenyon, Barnet

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Darblshire, C. W.

Kirkwood, D.

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Stephen, Campbell

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Laverack, F. J.

Sunlight, J.

Dodds, S. R.

Lessing, E.

Terrington, Lady

Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

Linfield, F. C.

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Falconer, J.

Livingstone, A. M.

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

Finney, V. H.

Loverseed, J. F.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

McCrae, Sir George

Thornton, Maxwell R.

George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

Macfadyen, E.

Vivian, H.

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Welsh, J. C.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Maden, H.

Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Harbord, Arthur

Maxton, James

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Harney, E. A.

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Morris, R. H.

Haycock, A. W.

Moulton, Major Fletcher

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Healy, Cahir

Murrell, Frank

Mr. Pringle and Mr. Harbison.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Raine, W.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Ramer, J. R.

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Harland, A.

Rentoul, G. S.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hartington, Marquess of

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Alstead, R.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Richards, R.

Amery Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Ammon, Charles George

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Aske, Sir Robert William

Hayes, John Henry

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Ayles, W. H.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfield)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Romeril, H. G.

Banton, G.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Ropner, Major L.

Barnes, A.

Hirst, G. H.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Batey, Joseph

Hobhouse, A. L.

Royce, William Stapleton

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Berry, Sir George

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Blundell, F. N.

Hudson, J. H.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Savery, S. S.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Isaacs, G. A.

Scurr, John

Broad F. A.

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Sexton, James

Bromfield, William

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Jephcott, A. R.

Shepperson, E. W.

Buckle, J.

Jewson, Dorothea

Sherwood, George Henry

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Burman, J. B.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Cape, Thomas

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Simpson, J. Hope

Chapman, Sir S.

Kennedy, T.

Sitch, Charles H.

Charleton, H. C.

King, Capt. Henry Douglas

Smillie, Robert

Clarke, A.

Lamb, J. O.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Climie, R.

Lansbury, George

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Cluse, W. S.

Law, A.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lawson, John James

Snell, Harry

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Leach, W.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Lee, F.

Spence, R.

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Stamford, T. W.

Cope, Major William

Lorimer, H. D.

Stanley, Lord

Cove, W. G.

Lowth, T.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Lunn, William

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Crittall, V. G.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

M'Entee, V. L.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Thurtle, E.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

March, S.

Tillett, Benjamin

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Tinker, John Joseph

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Marley, James

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Dawson, Sir Philip

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Toole, J.

Deans, Richard Storry

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Tout, W. J.

Dixey, A. C.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Viant, S. P.

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Middleton, G.

Waddington, R.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Wallhead, Richard C.

Dukes, C.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen.

Duncan, C.

Montague, Frederick

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Dunnico, H.

Moore- Brabazon, Lieut. -Col. J. T. C.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Muir, John W.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Muir, Ramsay (Rochdale)

Weir, L. M.

Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern)

Murray, Robert

Wells, S. R.

Egan, W. H.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Weston, John Wakefield

England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Naylor, T. E.

Westwood J.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Nichol, Robert

Whiteley, W.

Ferguson, H.

Nixon, H.

Wignall, James

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E

O'Grady, Captain James

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gillett, George M.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Windsor, Walter

Gosling, Harry

Penny, Frederick George

Wise, Sir Fredric

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, Weil)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Perry, S. F.

Wright, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Gretton, Colonel John

Philipson, Mabel

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Grundy, T. W.

Pielou, D. P.

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Pownall, Lieut. -Colonel Assheton

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Warne.

Original Question put, and agreed to

Class II

Privy Seal Office

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £569, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Lord Privy Seal."

The Committee will not expect more than a word or two of explanation of this Vote. The Prime Minister, very early in the present Session, stated that it had been decided that the salary of the office of Lord Privy Seal should be raised to £5,000, and this sum of £569 is necessary in order that we may provide for the difference between £2,000 and £5,000 up to the end of the present financial year. I think there is agreement in all parts of the House that this office cannot now be regarded as an office which is other than a very arduous office for anyone who holds it in conjunction with the Leadership of the House. That is the position with reference to the present holder of the office of Lord Privy Seal, and that was exactly the position with reference to two right hon. Gentlemen in previous Governments. I think the principle is accepted by the Committee, and with that very brief explanation, I have no doubt we will get this small sum of £569.

I do not intend to oppose this Estimate, but I think it is one that calls for some remark. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has referred to the practice of former Governments. I think the only Government in which the procedure now suggested was adopted was the Coalition Government, which most of us regarded on the whole as a bad precedent. That precedent was departed from when Mr. Bonar Law formed his Government. Then the office of Lord Privy Seal fell back, as it were, into the obscurity which in former days had attached to it. Are we to understand now that the office of Lord Privy Seal is to be regularly regarded as an important office associated with the Leadership of the House, and that consequently the salary of that sinecure has to be continued at £5,000? My recollection is that in former days very often there was no separate holder of that office at all, that there were no administrative duties attached to it, but that in some cases, when a Prime Minister desired the services of one of the elder statesmen whose health made it impossible for him to undertake administrative duties, such a statesman would become Lord Privy Seal, and for that might have £2,000 a year, although in some cases no salary at all was taken. If this office is to become regularly a post carrying a salary of £5,000, this means for the future a permanent increased charge, and I do not think we can, without consideration, assent to such a proposal.

I recollect the explanation which the Prime Minister gave in regard to the various offices in the Government when he made his Ministerial statement. At that time, he suggested that a great economy was being effected. He said that he himself was taking the offices of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, that he was taking only the salary of one of those offices, so that £5,000 was thereby being saved, and that if you raised the salary of the Lord Privy Seal from £2,000 to £5,000, there was a net saving of £2,000 by the arrangement. That was the argument, but I do not think it was necessary to have revived the office of Lord Privy Seal at all. The Prime Minister is not the first Prime Minister who has also been Foreign Secretary. When the late Lord Salisbury was Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary from 1886-to 1892, and subsequently from 1895 till his resignation, he held the office of Foreign Secretary only in conjunction with the Premiership, and the office of First Lord of the Treasury was then conjoined with the Leadership of the House. In the first place, the late Mr. W. H. Smith was Leader of the House, and he was succeeded by Mr. Balfour, who is now Lord Balfour. I do not see why a similar arrangement should not have been adopted on the present occasion, why the Prime Minister should not have simply contented himself with being Foreign Secretary, and not appointed himself First Lord of the Treasury, but allowed the Leader of the House to be First Lord of the Treasury, and then the total salary of the Lord Privy Seal would Have been saved.

While I do not wish to vote on this issue, I am calling the attention of the Government to a way whereby money could be saved without in any way affecting the public service. Let the Prime Minister be also Foreign Secretary, and take his salary as such, and let the Leader of the House be First Lord of the Treasury. The office of Lord Privy Seal can then fall into abeyance, and thereby you will save the salary attached to it. I suggest to the Financial Secretary that he should represent this to the Prime Minister, who is, happily, more pleasantly engaged at the moment, as I have already intimated to the Committee. He is, unfortunately, robbed of the pleasant society of the Financial Secretary and myself, but I have no doubt that after dinner the Financial Secretary will represent this to the Prime Minister, and that in the coming financial year the improved and more economical arrangement which I have suggested may be adopted.

With the hon. Gentleman opposite who has just spoken, I say that this is not a personal issue, because I have not the slightest feeling of objection to the suggestion that has been made. But I should like to call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the Report of a Select Committee of this House which sat in 1920 and dealt with the remuneration of Ministers. The recommendations of that Committee should have a good deal of weight on this occasion, because the present Lord Privy Seal was a member of it, and joined in the recommendations of the Committee which, I believe were unanimous. That Committee had before them very many important witnesses, every one of whom had special experience in relation to this particular question. It was found, I think, that the work upon which the present scale of remuneration of Ministers has been built up was very different in days gone by to those obtaining in 1920, and obtaining today. This Committee considered the relative positions of one Minister and another. They came to a conclusion, which, I daresay, the Financial Secretary has come to, which was that the responsibilities and work of the various offices held by various Members of the Government at the present time are very various indeed, and really have no relation to the salaries paid. They came to the conclusion—and I think most Members will agree—that the present remuneration of the Prime Minister of this country was quite inadequate. They also came to the conclusion, which I entirely share, that the Prime Minister of this country, if he desires it, should have a pension. But this is the point I want to put to the Financial Secretary. This Committee, of which the Lord Privy Seal was a member, unanimously came to this conclusion:

"That the remuneration attaching to the offices of the First Lord of the Treasury, the Lord Privy Seal, the Lord President of the Council, and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster should be entirely abolished."

They recommended that whilst, perhaps, these offices should be continued, it should only be done in special cases to suit particular cases, we will say, of the members of a Government who desire to hold office, but not to take a very active part in the general work. This Committee suggested that, so far as the remuneration of the Lord Privy Seal was concerned, it should be entirely abolished. They made another and a different suggestion altogether which has just been made by the hon. Gentleman opposite. They suggested that the Prime Minister of this country might occasionally not desire to be the Leader of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), who was examined at considerable length on his many years of experience, said to the Committee that the office of Lord Privy Seal was an absolute sinecure, and he also said—and this may surprise the Financial Secretary—that the natural substitute for the Prime Minister, if he cannot lead the House, is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It may surprise the hon. Gentleman opposite to know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley expressed this opinion:

"The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not a heavily-worked official at all; in fact the office of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a very lightly worked office indeed."

I suppose that is true, except for this period of the year when undoubtedly the duties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer are heavy. For the rest of the year they are comparatively light. That is not my own opinion, but that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, whose judgment in this matter is certainly entitled to consideration, and who I suppose has had the greatest amount of experience of any hon. Member in this House. Therefore, if there is a question in the future of the Prime Minister of this country not being able to continue the position it is the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley that the particular position should be combined with that of the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whilst I certainly will not oppose this Vote for one moment, there is very good reason, having regard to the unanimous recommendation of the Committee, that this office, so far as the remuneration is concerned, should be entirely abolished, and the further suggestion of the Committee that if the Prime Minister cannot lead the House the Chancellor of the Exchequer will should combine that duty with it, inasmuch as he has not much to do except at one portion of the year, that I hope the Government will take the matter into consideration. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) that this is an opportunity for the future, and not on any personal grounds, for the Government to take some action in regard to the financial commitment which is involved in this arrangement. It is true that there are hon. Members who sit on the back benches opposite who take the view that these salaries ought not to be paid at all. I remember reading one hon. Member's letters in a paper called, I believe, the "Forward." He thought that the present Labour Government would be taking a very wise course—he described it as making a gesture—

—to the working classes of this country if they contented themselves with their Parliamentary salaries and expenses. I do not say that I share that view. Many of these posts should carry with them a very considerable remuneration, having regard to the heavy responsibilities that have to be borne, and in many cases very considerable expenses. But there is that view. It has been expressed very strongly indeed, and it has been noted that this Government has gone on in this and other directions just as its predecessors; and they have adopted the present scale. I put it to the Financial Secretary, who is the official custodian of this House, that if, unhappily, the Prime Minister has to give up the office of Foreign Secretary and a new Foreign Secretary is appointed, that this Labour Government will then be taking in salaries more than any of its predecessors. I hope hon. Members opposite will have regard to that fact in any of their arrangements.

But I am dealing here more with the subject of the offices. Whilst not opposing this Vote at the present time, I would ask the Financial Secretary to take this view into account; the unanimous recommendations of the Select Committee, and also the financial question which has been so ably raised by the hon. Gentleman opposite.

I intervene for a little while in this Debate, but not on the personal issue. I do so on the ground of principle. It is not desirable to increase payments, or cause to be continued these sinecure offices. What this House would seem to ask for is, as has already been said by the hon. Member—and the principle of the Coalition being instituted as a permanency was criticised—that the Lord Privy Seal should not be the permanent substitute of the Prime Minister in the leadership of the House. The Vote we are asked for is small in amount, but what is the position in which we find ourselves? The salary to be paid to the Lord Privy Seal, we all admit, has a great deal to be said for it, and it will be increased from £2,000 to £5,000 a year. If that principle be adopted the result will be that whenever the Prime Minister finds the strain of the Office of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary too great for him, another Foreign Secretary will be appointed and then another appointment at £5,000 will be made.

The result of this transaction which we are asked to approve to-night therefore will mean an additional £3,000 a year as a charge upon the Treasury, and it will be an increase in the wages of the officers of the present Government. I think that point ought to be taken seriously into consideration. If the present Government representing the Labour or the Socialist party should go before the country as drawing larger and increased salaries than their predecessors found it necessary to do, I hope that we shall get an assurance that this arrangement is only a temporary one and that some arrangement will be made that it shall not cost the country any more than it did in previous years under previous Governments. I hope this is not going to be a permanent increase to these charges.

We ought to congratulate the two hon. Members opposite who have just taken part in this Debate upon their new found zeal for economy in salaries. I remember when the anti-waste campaign was at its height we raised the question of salaries, but I do not recollect any such speech from the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) as that which he has delivered to-night.

This question was first raised by members of the party opposite and on this matter, therefore, the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) is in the same position as myself.

But there is this difference. My hon. Friends on this side have called attention to these matters in season and out of season during the War while the hon. Member for West Woolwich remained quite silent. Neither the hon. Member for West Woolwich nor the hon. Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) raised these matters on the occasion to which I have referred.

But it does matter, and it has a great bearing on all these matters. I do not think there is the least complaint from any side of the House in regard to this Vote, and we ought not to deny a Salary suitable to the honour and dignity of a great position. There was a time when all these enthusiastic economists belonging to the party opposite really supported two Parliamentary Secretaries to the Treasury, neither of whom had any official function whatever, and in fact they were simply small Grants-in-Aid to the party funds of the party which hon. Members opposite serve. Therefore I think we are entitled, while congratulating hon. Gentlemen opposite on the courage and persistency with which they have put forward these pleas for economy, to remind them that they come a little late in the day.

9.0 P.M.

I do not think hon. Members opposite who have spoken on this question are really serious about it. I remember a frivolous case when the Government were appointing a Governor for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) did not protest against spending British money for Northern Ireland upon a useless appointment. Nobody takes the hon. Member for West Woolwich seriously, because he is well known as an hon. Member who likes to hear himself talk, and anybody who has sat on the Committee upstairs will agree with that statement. I want to raise this question because I think the salary is too great. £2,000 for any Member of the Front Bench is certainly sufficient, and it is a great deal more than the men and women who have built up the Labour movement receive in wages, and who have put these hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench. £40 a week or £2,000 a year, is ample for any man to carry on the duties of his office, probably not with the dignity hon. Members opposite desire, but with all the dignity that is required, and with all the dignity that the people of the country desire to see that office carried on. I protest against this increase of salary, and I cannot agree with it. £2,000 a year for this Minister meets all the needs without increasing it, and I hope the Labour Government will support a new principle in this way, that they will start on a new foundation and say that while it may be true of previous Governments that £5,000 a year was needed for this Office, now that we are starting as a new Government and as an entirely new party with entirely new principles, these salaries were far too high in the past.

I hope the Labour Government are not going to be bound by tradition on this or any other question. I sometimes feel that they are becoming more reactionary than Governments used to be 10 or 20 years ago, and I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will bear in mind that, while he is asking us to vote £5,000 for the Office of the Lord Privy Seal, he and this Government and the Governments of the past even more so, are asking other men to live upon 15s. a week. They are now pleading that this salary is not sufficient, but I say it is the duty of the Labour Government before they increase this salary from £2,000 to £5,000 to increase the wages of those who are receiving 15s. up to a decent living wage. I protest against this Vote, and for my part I want to register my emphatic protest against a Labour Government taking this course before it has increased the wages of the poor people of this country.

I cannot allow the speech which has just been delivered to pass without making some comment. We have heard a great deal about making a gesture. May I point out that it is not actually what you receive with regard to salaries that matters but what you have to spend, and the hon. Member who has just spoken has not informed the Committee that, so far as this office is concerned, £2,000 would not pay the salaries of the staff at 11, Downing Street. It is not fair to the people on this side of the House or the other side who are going to vote an adequate salary for an office of this kind to say that we desire to see people living on 15s. a week. We want to see everybody with a substantial income, but we ought to get a correct view of what incomes really mean.

So far as we are concerned, incomes in this country are upside down. Take a comparison between the Lord Privy Seal and the Prime Minister and one of the leading jockeys in this country. A jockey receives for three minutes' work twice the salary of the Lord Privy Seal or the Prime Minister. That, to my mind, proves that we have a wrong conception altogether of what is adequate remuneration for services rendered. If the Prime Minister of this country can manage on a salary of £5,000 per annum, he is the cheapest Prime Minister this country has ever had, because most of our Premiers have had private incomes in addition to their salaries from the State. So far as this office is concerned, I am quite certain that no man is prompted to accept it because of the remuneration it brings him, because I am convinced that it will cost, to run the Lord Privy Seal's office and the Leadership of the House of Commons, almost every penny that the House will vote, and it will not interfere with the efforts that are being made on this side of the House, and by everyone else who is interested, to raise the status of the poorest paid workman. The last speech is excellent propaganda for those who are living upon the dole, but it does not recognise the facts of the situation; and it is distinctly unfair to use the House for the purpose of propaganda.

And you deserved it. It is distinctly unfair, no matter from which section of the House it comes, to use an opportunity of this kind

—for the purpose of political propaganda. That speech does not represent the opinion of this side of the House, and has no regard to the facts of the situation, and, personally, I protest against its being made.

It is always difficult to discuss the question of salaries, and it is difficult for me to-night to reply to this Debate, because the point which is before the Committee is the comparatively narrow point of the increase from, £2,000 to £5,000 of the salary attached to this particular office, rather than the general question of the salaries of Cabinet Ministers and other Members of the Government as a whole. With regard to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), I am quite satisfied, without in any way wishing to defend excessive salaries, that, if he made inquiry into all the inevitable, unavoidable, and certainly non-wasteful burdens on this office, he would not have delivered the speech that he has delivered to-night, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Salford (Mr. Toole) for putting the case in proper proportion.

One or two other points have been raised which I think I should make perfectly plain. In the first place, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle), the matter to which he referred must obviously be a matter of arrangement for the Government of the day; it cannot be a permanent arrangement. Moreover, as regards the present Vote, we are merely faced with the duty, or the difficulty, of asking the Lord Privy Seal for the time being to act also as Leader of the House of Commons, which, as I think the Committee will agree, is an arduous, difficult and responsible office; and, that being so, there must be a salary commensurate with the duties and also with the burden upon an office of this kind. As regards the point which was put by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), and the Report which he quoted, I do not desire to make any statement on that matter, and it would be irrelevant for the purposes of this Vote. No doubt this Government or some succeeding may have to consider the whole problem of Cabinet salaries and the burdens upon the offices, and may also have to consider whether certain of the offices which the hon. Gentleman quoted should be retained at all. I think, however, he will agree at once that the abolition of certain of these offices would raise very large questions, which, I take it, might involve legislation, and which, in any case, must be the subject of inquiry before any suggestion or proposal could be debated in the House.

There is only one other point, namely, the actual provision that we are making. I think the House has, perhaps, forgotten the precise term3 of the reply that was given by the Prime Minister in the early part of the Session. The truth is that we have made a considerable saving for the time being, because the Prime Minister himself holds both the office of Foreign Secretary and the office of First Lord of the Treasury. There is also a substantial saving due to the action of the present Lord Chancellor, so that, even when we make allowance for this increase of £3,000 per annum, the net saving to the State under our present arrangements is £9,000 per annum. Without claiming any credit for the Government—I am not anxious to claim any credit; it is the money that appeals to me—I think the Committee will agree that we have made a substantial saving, and that we are entitled to some credit or consideration.

Yes, the Lord Chancellor is. The position is largely one of finance at the present time, and with this explanation I have no doubt that the Committee will give us this very small Vote which we are seeking.

Question put, and agreed to.

Class III

Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £64,200. be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for certain Miscellaneous Legal Expenses, for the Salaries and Expenses of Arbitrators, etc., under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, for the Salaries and Expenses of the War Compensation Court, under the Indemnity Act, 1920, for the payment of Compensation and Legal, etc., Expenses under the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Act, 1923, and for a Grant-in-Aid of the Expenses of the Incorporated Law Society of England."

I am sorry to trouble the Committee again so soon, but I think hon. Members are entitled to a brief explanation of this Vote. In June, 1923, there was passed the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Act, which had two objects The first was to stop legal proceedings in respect of action which had been taken by the Home Secretary of the day in the deportation of certain people from England and Scotland connected with the difficulties in Ireland at that time. In the second place, the Act provided for compensation in respect of damage or loss sustained by people who had been so deported. Under the Act a tribunal was set up, one in England, appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, and another appointed in Scotland by the Lord President of the Court of Session, and these two tribunals proceeded, under the very ample powers conferred on them by the Act, to consider the claims for compensation and to fix the amount which should be paid. It is arising from that Act of Parliament that we find it necessary to ask for this Vote of rather more than £64,000. The items in the Vote may be very simply explained. First of all, there is an amount of £54,000 in respect of compensation which has already been awarded by the two tribunals, and that amount is allocated in the proportion of £37,000 or thereby to claimants deported from England and £17,000, or a little more, to claimants deported from Scotland. As regards the work of the two tribunals, very largely the Scottish claims were settled by negotiation and very few meetings of the Scottish Tribunal were necessary. In England, however, the conditions were rather more difficult, and in all about 20 meetings of the tribunal were held and a sum of about £37,000 was allocated. That accounts for by far the largest part of this Vote. In order to anticipate criticism on this point, I want to explain that under a late Sub-section in the; Act there was entrusted to the two tribunals full discretion in the fixing of the amount of compensation. While I could, after notice, give the exact sums paid in individual cases I am entitled to say that that hardly arises to-night. After all that was a matter which was properly entrusted to the tribunal and duly overtaken by them. That accounts for £54,000 in this Estimate. There is then a comparatively small sum of £805 in respect of the expenses of the tribunal. They were of course necessary and unavoidable expenses, and I hardly anticipate any substantial criticism on that point. The other part of the Estimate is a sum of rather more than £9,000, and that is included under the heading of costs. On that the Committee is entitled to this explanation, that, while we have been able to obtain a large measure of settlement in Scotland, the solicitors' costs in many of the English cases have not yet been definitely or finally fixed, and £9,000 is an approximate estimate to the best of our ability, but we do not, of course, give it for the purposes of discussion to-night as the final sum.

I do not quite understand the item of costs. What are the legal expenses in addition to costs?

The legal expenses are the expenses of the late Attorney-General and also of the counsel engaged in the case. There is a sum of £249 due to the late Attorney-General, and rather more than £900 due to other counsel for the services they rendered. I must leave any arguments on the legal aspect of this to the Attorney-General, who no doubt will take part in the Debate if necessary, although strictly speaking there is nothing included in it to which I should hesitate in any way personally to reply. That is the manner in which the Estimate is made up. Of course it is an Estimate within an Act of Parliament passed in June, 1923, by which we are absolutely bound at present.

Has part of this money been paid and, if so, what Parliamentary authority was there for payment of the money out of the Civil Contingencies Fund?

I cannot reply to that point offhand, but I hope to be able to give the hon. and gallant Gentleman a reply during the course of the Debate. Obviously, I could not charge my memory with the exact date when payment was made. It falls to me to-night not so much to defend the Estimate, and certainly not to embark on any discussion of policy, but merely to explain how the sum is made up.

We are told the concluding items of £9,000 is not a complete Estimate. Are we to assume that the £54,000 is a complete figure, and that all claims have been settled?

I have a complete list of the claims as regards deportees from England and Scotland, and my information is that that is the beginning and the end of the story.

There is one question the hon. Gentleman has not answered, and that is why there is a Grant-in-Aid of the expenses of the Incorporated Law Society. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the expenses of the tribunals and of counsel, but how does the Incorporated Law Society come in? We ought to have some elucidation of that.

Can the hon. Gentleman say on what sort of basis the compensation was settled?

I am advised, as regards the first question, that there is nothing under that head in fact. It is merely the title of the Vote. As regards the other point, I cannot give the information the hon. Gentleman asks for, because this was left to the tribunal with full discretion. I have no doubt, personally, they had regard to all the circumstances, and fixed compensation according to more or less uniform practice throughout, but in any event that was entirely a matter for their judgment.

No, these were two tribunals, one in England presided over by a judge, and also one in Scotland, with the assistance of two other members learned in the law.

This is a Vote which needs some slight discussion. It represents the whirlwind which the taxpayer is reaping now for the wind caused by the folly of the Law Officers of the Crown of the late Government. There is only one item in this Vote which I wish to discuss, item S, costs and expenses, and, of that portion, only the expenses. As the reply of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to my question indicated, £249 of this sum of £9,255 represents remuneration to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Marylebone (Sir D. Hogg) for the work which he did as a Law Officer of the Crown in connection with the cases brought before these tribunals. That is to say, that while the right hon. Gentleman was drawing a salary of £7,000 a year, and at the same time making a very large sum in fees for his work as Attorney-General, and when in the course of that work he gave disastrous advice to the Government of the day which has cost the country no less than £64,C00 and a great deal of trouble and bother as well—during the course of his duty he, in addition, made £249. By his folly he created work for himself for which he has been paid this very considerable sum. I wish the right hon. Gentleman were here to-night. I should like to hear from his own lips how he justifies to himself his acceptance of this sum. I should like to know if any hon. or right hon. Gentleman in this House, in similar circumstances—that is to say, in circumstances where by his own folly he had caused a case to arise—would accept a sum of money as part of the remuneration given to the Law Officers of the Crown in connection with that case. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Marylebone is not in the least need of £250. We all know what the earnings of eminent counsel are and what the fees of Attorney-Generals amounted to. There is all the more reason in that case why we should have had some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he would not accept this sum, which he really obtained in a manner totally unprecedented. He commits this grave blunder, a blunder which held up for many days the conduct of business in this House; a blunder which caused the late Home Secretary many hours of anguish and pain; and which at the same time gravely embarrassed the Government, and he takes as a result of that blunder, and for no other reasons whatever, an extra £249. I appeal to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, before we finally pass from this subject, to tell us whether he has received from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Marylebone any intimation that he would be willing to forego this sum to which under the law of equity he is not in the least entitled.

I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member opposite, which raises a personal issue. I wonder if the hon. Member has informed the late Attorney-General that he intended to raise this case, and challenge him. Unfortunately he is not in the House. It is the usual Parliamentary practice to inform an hon. Member.

It is not usual in the older Houses of Parliament to bring a charge against an hon. Member.

On a point of Order. Is it in order on a Vote which does not disclose the issues which were going to be raised and which could not have been foreseen by my hon. Friend (Mr. Johnstone), to challenge him in that way when he had either to remain silent because this Vote purposely or by accident does not disclose the fact or allow it to go without comment.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman bear with me for one or two moments longer. I rise really to clear up two points. The note at the bottom of page 4 really shows that the sum required for various miscellaneous legal expenses is £127,298. The Committee is now asked to vote miscellaneous charges of £63,098. May I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if there is any sum in the £63,098 which has been devoted to defraying the expenses of compensation under the particular Act which has caused this Vote, the Indemnity (Ireland) Act, 1923, and if the sum now asked for to-night is required on account of those expenses? The next point is the question of the tribunals and the legal expenses, £9,250. I think I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that this sum of £9,250 is only an estimate. May I ask the hon. Gentleman if it is anticipated that the whole of that sum will be expended in the present financial year or if he anticipates that he will have to come to Parliament in the next financial year for a further Vote on account of these expenses? These two points are not clear in the Estimates.

I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman opposite was not in the House when the Vote was being discussed. The Government is compelled to bring forward this Vote. It is none of their making. They are not in the least responsible. They are bound to come to Parliament and ask for the money. The party opposite are the people responsible. It would have shown a little more courage if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who caused the taxpayers to pay the money had been in their places to explain and face up to their own illegal and ill-judged act. They confine themselves to participating without being present to discuss or defend. It is idle to go back over this long story. The thing was a disgrace, and we made our protest at the time. Hon. Members here led that protest. Now we have to pay the bill for the folly of the late Government. It is a constitutional point which I wish to put to the Financial Secretary. When this Indemnity Bill was being passed, we thought the passage of a Bill setting up a Commission to award compensation was a Bill which involved a charge upon Parliamentary funds and, therefore, we put a question to the Chair, "Is not this a Bill which should be preceded by a Money Resolution?" That is to say, authorising the payment out of money provided by Parliament of such sums as the Commission may award. I think, myself, either view might have been taken. I believe the Government of the day would have brought in a Money Resolution if they had thought of it, but their nerve was so shaken by what had happened, and they were in such a hurry, that they did not, and the Bill was passed without a Money Resolution or an italicised Clause. What the Bill did was to set up a Commission to assess claims, and there was no authority whatever given to that Commission to pay any money out of public funds. Now it has been paid. The Financial Secretary is not in the least responsible. He is simply the spokesman of an office which he fills far better than his predecessor.

Why has the money been paid? One of the most important and most sacred functions of this Committee is to see that no money is paid out without Parliamentary sanction. It is the foundation of the whole structure of our system of grants of public money. Where is the Parliamentary sanction for the payment of this money? It is not in the Indemnity Bill. If it had been in the Indemnity Bill, the Indemnity Bill would have been preceded by a Resolution authorising the payment of money. Then why has the money been paid? It is a New Service, thank goodness, and there is no precedent for it. It is not in continuation of any other Supply. It is a draft on the Civil Contingencies Fund for which there is no Parliamentary authority, and in the interests of the House and of the powers of this House, I ask the Financial Secretary to consider this question and tell us by what Parliamentary authority the money has been paid. I am not complaining about the money itself. Of course, it was right that the money should be paid, but there must be Parliamentary authority for it.

I am afraid that the Ministers are so good at remitting any surcharge that it would be no use surcharging them. My point is one of some substance and it is not of a party character, but is concerned with the essential functions of this Committee.

I think it is extremely ungrateful of the Home Rulers opposite to object to this small sum of £249. What was the value received? As a result of the unfortunate mistake that was made, the Irish Free State's life was saved.

It seems to me that this case calls for some inquiry by the Treasury. If any other person had made a similar mistake, he would have been prosecuted and would have been asked to refund the money that he had wrongfully obtained. Here is a man who has received a salary of £10,000 and now he receives an additional sum of £249. The £249 ought to have been) deducted from his salary. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury ought to treat the late Attorney-General as he would treat one of his workmen or as the Government would treat one of their employés. I agree that the money had to be paid in compensation, but the new Government ought to have taken some action against their predecessors in the matter. For a whole day, recently, am attack was made upon the hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) for giving to the poor people of Poplar grants of £1 or £2 a week. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) and others attacked him for it.

I objected both to the payment in regard to Poplar and also to the course that was taken.

I seldom find you in the lobby with me. The Minister of Health was attacked because it was supposed that he had given a few extra shillings to the poor people of Poplar, but here is a man who has been the cause of this country losing £64,000 through his own stupid action. If a poor person had been capable of such an action, he would have found himself in the dock and would have been punished. In this case, the right hon. Gentleman goes scot free; he is a Member of this House. I do not blame the Government for the position in which they find themselves, but I do say that this is an evidence of class favouritism. The Attorney-General is a great man although he acted wrongly and illegally. A poor man would be made a criminal for a like action. I hope that this sort of thing will never occur again. We of the Labour party are not supposed to be able to govern. At least our Government during their term of office, whether it be long or short, will never be guilty of the criminal folly of which its predecessors were guilty. I think we have ample proof that the Labour party is far more able to govern than the Gentlemen who preceded them in office.

I should like to ask the Attorney-General whether he subscribes to the legal ethics put forward by the last speaker and the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. Harcourt Johnstone). It will be his duty to advise the Government, and when he ceases to hold his present office it will be his duty to advise private clients to embark in certain litigation. If that litigation should, unfortunately, prove unsuccessful, will the learned Attorney-General consent under those circumstances to forego the fees that would otherwise be his?

I suppose that we shall vote this money or vote our sanction for the expense that has been incurred, and in doing so we shall feel that the right hon. Gentleman opposite made a profound mistake when he entered into the proceedings which led to the deportations of our Irish Nationalist friends. We have to take for granted the bona fides of the ex-Home Secretary. We have been told what a high-minded honourable gentleman he is and that it has cost the country all this money because he was high-minded and honourable and was doing his duty. A set of poor men and women in the East End of London who are entitled to be considered just as honourable and high-minded as the right hon. Gentleman have been pilloried in this House and called all kinds of names. Hon. Members opposite have even imported a new word into the dictionary, "Poplarism," and used it as a stigma against men and women who have only acted in exactly the same way as the right hon. Gentleman. Nobody has pursued them with, I would not like to say venom in regard to the hon. Member for West Woolwich, but with more persistence than the hon. Member.

I shall sit down when I am ruled out of order. No one has pursued these other men with more persistence than the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir E. Wood). I ask hon. Members to be as charitable to those men and women as they have proved themselves to be in judging the late Home Secretary. We may be legally wrong, as he was, but if we acted bona fide , the House should not pursue us, and want the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) to surcharge us and make us bankrupt. You had to pass an Act of Parliament to get the late Home Secretary ou£ of his mess. I do not want you to pass an Act to get us out of anything we have done. All we want is that the same sort of charity and consideration which you have extended to the late Home Secretary should be extended to us.

I think that it is time that somebody who is a friend of the late Attorney-General should say a word or two in his defence. Though I am a new Member of this House, I may say that I rather expected that the learned Attorney-General's well-known chivalry, and the chivalry which we expect from the Leader of the Bar, would have caused him to undertake this task.

May I just say that I proposed in a moment or two to deal with this matter, but I thought that it would be more convenient to defer my remarks.

I am very glad to hear the learned Attorney-General say that. It is what I expected of him. First, in regard to the point referred to by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), I do not wish to pursue it any further than to say that, at any rate, the late Attorney-General did not issue a pamphlet entitled, "Guilty, and proud of it."

May I point out that the pamphlet did not plead guilty to illegality; it pleaded guilty to feeding poor people in the East End of London.

That is enough. It seems to be assumed by hon. Members opposite that the advice given by the late Attorney-General was grossly negligent in some way or another. I want to tackle that proposition. If those gentlemen themselves had ever had to give advice upon technical and difficult regulations, as the Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act undoubtedly were, and upon the construction of Acts of Parliament, they would know that such a matter is exceedingly difficult. Was the late Attorney-General's advice so grossly negligent as that it could be said of him that he ought to be penalised in some way for giving that advice? Why, the First Court, consisting, I think, of three Judges, including the Lord Chief Justice of England, found that the advice which the late Attorney-General gave was good advice. They decided that a writ of habeas corpus could not be granted in favour of the Irish deportees. How, then, can it be said that the advice of the late Attorney-General was so grossly bad and inefficient that he ought in any way to be penalised for it?

Do you want me to move a reduction in the salary of the Lord Chief Justice?

I do not feel called upon to meet points of that kind. If the hon. Member has no better interruption than that, perhaps he will allow me to continue my observations. I make this one further point. When the late Attorney-General's opponent lost his case before the Court of Keng's Bench he had the right to appeal to the Court of Appeal for the grant of a writ of habeas corpus , in effect by way of appeal from the Court of King's Bench. But once the Court of Appeal had granted a writ of habeas corpus , the result was to set the prisoners at liberty, and then there was no appeal to the House of Lords, as there is in an ordinary case, from the decision of the Court of Appeal, so that the decision of the highest court in the land could not be obtained as to which of these two contentions was right. For that reason I suggest that it is grossly unfair, particularly in the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend, to attack his conduct in this way. I have said enough to show to all fair-minded Members of the Committee that there is no ground for saying that my right hon. and learned Friend gave grossly bad or negligent advice. If that be so all the arguments put up in this matter fall to the ground.

It would be a pity if this Debate were turned into a mutual admiration society between those who are members of the honourable profession of the Bar, but I feel bound to say that I, certainly, could not subscribe to the view that the late Attorney-General had exhibited gross incompetence in the view which he formed matter of law in this matter. I have the best of reasons for saying that, because, as I told the House at the time, I should have thought, as I did at the time, as a mere matter of bare law, that there was a great deal to be said for the view which the late Attorney-General is supposed to have expressed. Certainly, nobody who knows the late Attorney-General, or who has had any dealings with him in this House, whatever we may think of his politics, will deny that he is an exceedingly competent and well-informed man, and it would be ridiculous to conduct the Debate on any other basis. The important thing is not that we should all fight in the defence of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who is very well able to take care of himself, but that it should not be forgotten that everybody certainly now sitting on this side of the House, and some people who sit on the other side, from the very first insisted—what is far more important than any point of law— that the action of the late Home Secretary in this matter was an outrage from the constitutional point of view. And from the very beginning, for my own part, I have cared comparatively little as to whether anybody could argue that it was legally justified, because nobody who had the least understanding of what was involved in such a policy could have failed to see that it was the most gross abuse of power, even if the power existed, and that is a more important matter. But at the same time I do not think that I should be acting fairly if I did not remind the Committee, for what it is worth, if they will allow me, that I should have thought that, from the legal point of view, the Attorney-General might have something to say. It is only just to add that the hon. and learned Gentleman who now holds the office of Attorney-General, from the beginning, expressed a different view, and I will do him the justice of saying that I have never hesitated to admit that in that matter it has turned out, according to the view of the Court of Appeal, to be perfectly right. The Government are to be congratulated on having his professional services, but really this is not a matter for professional compliment or criticism. It really concerns a large sum of money which the country is called upon to find as a result of a very grave mistake of public policy, which, to my mind, was a breach of one of the most fundamental principles which ought to govern the action of the Executive in dealing with citizens who are not accused of any crime.

I merely rise to answer the criticism of the hon. and learned Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Storry-Deans), who seemed to argue as though criticism were directed here against the sum of £249, on the ground that the case had gone against the late Attorney-General. If I understood the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. H. Johnstone) rightly, his charge was not that there had been the loss of a legal case, but that profit had been made out of a blunder on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the Attorney-General will deal with the legal etiquette, and I am quite sure he will be treated in this matter with a great deal more generosity than was the case when my hon. Friend himself expressed a contrary opinion from that of the late Attorney-General on this matter. I think, after the experience we have had in this House of the charges that have been made against other people who have made mistakes in the law, that there should be a surcharge against the people responsible. I suggest that the late Government should be surcharged for the £64,000. That is a point which should be considered, if it has not been covered in the point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) with regard to this payment not having been covered by a Money Resolution.

10.0 P.M.

I have listened with some interest to this Debate, and I confess I am disappointed with the somewhat luke-warm speech made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). Very likely another Court would reverse the decision, but there must be finality in law, and I do not think the late Attorney-General is to blame. Now it is said—and this amuses me—that Counsel are in some way responsible for their opinions. They are, but that they are therefore bound to surrender their fees is a new doctrine. We should not live if we remained re- sponsible in law for our opinions. We give them to the best of our ability. Does anyone really suppose this was done of malice? I believe on both sides of this House the late Home Secretary was an exceedingly popular person, and I am sure anybody who knows him entertains the highest opinion of his honour and integrity in acting as he did. I go further. I cannot doubt he had behind him the advice of his Department, and with great respect to all concerned, the Home Office was the most able advisers. I have no doubt he also took the opinion of the Attorney-General and of the Solicitor-General. There is no doubt he acted upon what he believed, and was honestly advised, that the law was. I am surprised to hear my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley taking the high line of describing it as a great outrage. I never thought it was a great outrage to carry out the law, if you believed it to be the law. I think the law ought to be carried out. I believe it to be the whole foundation of society

I am sure no one in the Committee would condemn a man because of an error of judgment or a mistake in advice. I am sure no one would condemn the late Attorney-General for lack of legal knowledge or ability to impart it to those he was advising. What I think is wrong is that any man should profit out of his own mistake or his bad advice. If there were no profit arising out of it to the person who gave the wrong advice, no one would object. It would be a good thing, I think, for this country if all the legal gentlemen were penalised for all the bad advice they gave.

Supposing I gave you good advice and you gained £10,000, how much would you give me?

You would take care that you had a good share of it, but you would not be so ready, if your advice ended in my failing to obtain £10,000, to give me compensation for the loss I sustained. I know that the task that the Front Bench has to perform is an unpleasant one. The legal profession is the best trade union in the world, and are quicker to cover up mistakes and failures than to condemn them. I am not finding fault on that account, but I do enter my emphatic protest against any person making a profit out of his mistakes and a costly blunder he has led the country into.

I hope no one in this Committee will think that the late Attorney-General requires, or that he would fail to get from me, any expression of chivalry, if such is the proper expression, that should be extended from one member of my profession to another. I would like to say to my Friends behind me, that to speak of the late Attorney-General as having been guilty of gross negligence, or negligence at all, is entirely wrong. All that happened in the case was that either opinion might have been right. There was no more negligence in the view expressed by the late Attorney-General when he was wrong than there would have been in the view expressed by the other side if he had been right and they had been wrong. The way in which the work of a lawyer and of an Attorney-General is carried on is this: He has to give advice, and upon his advice litigation ensues. It is quite impossible to suggest that when the advice is good the Attorney-General is to get his ordinary fees, but that when it turns out to be bad advice he is to give those fees back. No lawyer could possibly carry on his work in that sort of way. It is impossible for any lawyer to be placed in the sort of position that, when a case has gone well on his advice he is entitled to be paid, and when it has not, he has to select for himself the occasion on which he is to return the fees. There is one point of substance in the Debate to-night on which I would like to say a word in answer to a question of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). I think, if I may say so with all respect, that the hon. and gallant Member was under some misapprehension in regard to his contention as to the legality of these payments. Under the Act passed last year there was given a right of action to a certain number of people. They, however, were in exactly the same position as other people were if this Bill had not been passed, as they would have had a cause of action against the Crown. They took action against the Crown, and when they were recipients of awards they received pay- ment of compensation. The money, in fact, was paid out of the Civil Contingencies Fund.

I know that there is general statutory power to pay out of the Civil Contingencies Fund for claims made against civil servants of the State and no Money Resolution is required for that, but this Bill deprived the people of the right to bring their case and substituted a new power of claim, and there was no statutory authority to meet that claim and no Money Resolution was put into the Bill.

My hon. and gallant Friend is not quite right about that. Under Section 1, a cause of action was given. Upon that cause of action they took proceedings. Thereupon they were in' the position of people who had got a legal claim against the Crown which they could bring as a petition of right. Under this Act they did bring proceedings and they got judgments and these had to be paid.

See what occurs. A private Member can introduce a Bill into this House and set up a Commission to award claims, and these people can draw the money without statutory authority having been given, thereby depriving this House of the right to control the money.

This House gave that power. Rightly or wrongly, wisely or unwisely, the House gave this right to certain persons. All that these persons did was to exercise that right. An award was given in their favour and the money has to be taken out of the Civil Contingencies Fund. All that we are doing to-night is recording the fact that it has to be paid; we ask for sanction for the' payment. I do not know what the hon. and gallant Gentleman sug- gests that we can do except to ask for the money.

Question put, and agreed to

Civil Services (Excess) 1922–23

Motion made, and Question proposed.

"That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to make good an excess on the Grant for the Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1923."

This is a very small matter and refers to an excess payment in the Bankruptcy Department for the financial year ended 31st March, 1923. For that year the gross estimate was £149,496. Parliament at that time authorised Appropriations-in-Aid to be issued by the Treasury for £149,486. In that year the total amount of fees brought to credit was £182,840, and the House will see that there were ample fees received in the Department to cover the cost. The circumstances in which the expenditure was incurred in excess of the Vote have been explained to the Public Accounts Committee. It was incurred for stationery and printing, due to the increased volume of bankruptcy work, and the excess amount was equal to only about 1 per cent of the gross Estimate. The Public Accounts Committee reported to the House that they saw no objection to the sum being provided by an Excess Vote.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Mr. F. Hall .]

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one Minutes after Ten o'Clock.