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Commons Chamber

Volume 171: debated on Thursday 20 March 1924

House of Commons

Thursday, March 20, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Supreme Court (Prize, Etc., Deposit Account, 1922–23.)

Copy ordered, "of Account of Receipts and Payments of the Accounting Officer of the Vote for the Supreme Court on behalf of the Admiralty Division in Prize for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1923, and for the period 4th day of August, 1914, to 31st day of March, 1923, together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon"—[ Mr. William Graham .]

FINAL AWARDS MADE.

January 1st, 1922, to December, 1923 ..

MEN.

100%

90%

80%

70%

60%

50%

40%

30%

20%

Service.

Total Pensions

Final Weekly Allowances.

4,884

755

2,719

4,336

6,927

12,900

16,405

29,210

54,818

4,502

137,456

175,859

OFFICERS.

100%

90%

80%

70%

60%

50%

40%

30%

20%

Total Pensions.

190

16

70

128

192

338

461

842

1,418

3,655

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Final Awards

asked the Minister Of Pensions what was the number of final awards made between the 1st January, 1922, and the 31st December, 1923; what was the number of permanent pensions awarded in the respective degrees of disablement of 20 per cent. and upwards; what was the number of final weekly allowances; and whether it is proposed to give all pensioners who have received final awards the right of appeal in the event of deterioration as provided in Article 5 of the Royal Warrant of 1919?

I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate the detailed figures for which he asks in the OFFICIAL REPORT. With regard to the last part of the question, I would point out that the conditions under which final awards are made are governed entirely by the War Pensions Act, 1921, which does not import the terms of the Warrant article referred to.

Following are the figures:

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is considering the recentralisation of the Scottish region and the re-transfer of the administration and issue of pensions to London; and, if so, will he undertake to come to no binding decision until the Scottish view, which opposes further centralisation, has had an opportunity of being put before him?

asked the Minister of Pensions if it is proposed to recentralise the Scottish region and re-transfer the administration and issue of pensions to London; and if he is aware that since decentralisation there has been an absence of the delays that formerly aroused widespread complaint?

No such proposal as that mentioned in these questions is in contemplation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of any intention, after the latest election result, of closing down the Abingdon Street offices of the Liberal party?

Royal Sussex Regiment (Private a. H. Ide)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is prepared to immediately take steps to reconsider the case of Private Alfred Harry Ide, No. G 4,681, Royal Sussex Regiment, who was originally received into a mental hospital as a service patient as the result of wounds and shell shock, and who has now been transferred to the pauper class, refused any pension gratuity or allowance, and has become chargeable to the guardians of the parish?

Pension for blindness has been in issue in this case at the maximum rate since the man's discharge from the Army. I am glad to inform the hon. and gallant Member that the mental condition has also been accepted as due to service, and the man will accordingly be classified as a service patient.

Appeals

asked the Minister of Pensions if he has considered the advisability of establishing a Court or Tribunal to which can be remitted all cases in which the local pensions com- mittee is agreed that injustice has been inflicted by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal?

As I have already intimated, the general question involved is receiving my consideration. Problems of some difficulty have arisen on which I am at present in consultation with the Lord Chancellor, and I hope, with his assistance, shortly to be in a position to make an announcement on the subject.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that many sailors, soldiers, and airmen who served in the Great War and incurred disabilities are not aware that the last day to lodge an appeal to the assessment appeal was the 6th February, 1924; where such notice of the Ministry's decision appeared; whether, in order to remedy cases of hardship and give full effect to his decision, he will extend the date to the 30th April, 1924; and, if such extension be granted, will steps be taken to give full publicity to such decision?

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that many ex-service men and the widows of men who have died as a result of their service in the War have failed, through inadvertence or lack of knowledge of procedure, to appeal against a decision of the Ministry in refusing a pension; and whether he will take steps to alter the regulations so as to afford all such who feel themselves aggrieved an opportunity of appealing against the decision of the Ministry?

I regret that I have no information as to the number of men who have failed to exercise their right of appeal to the tribunal within the prescribed period. The Regulations governing the classes of case referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) were published in February, 1923, and at the same time notice of the right of appeal was published in six issues of the principal newspapers circulating in London and the provinces and in three issues of the monthly journal of the British Legion. Notices were also displayed in the local offices of the Ministry, and in January last a reminder was circulated to the Press, in which it was given wide publicity. The right of appeal is limited by Statute to the period of one year, and I have, therefore, no authority to extend it.

Does the hon. Gentleman contemplate extending this period or making some amendment of the existing practice?

That point has been under consideration for some time, but I am not able to make a definite statement yet.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise the inability of the people to understand or appreciate this limited period?

As long as the Ministry of Pensions continues to exist, should not these men have the right to appeal; and whether they do so outside the prescribed time or not, should not their cases receive consideration?

Dependants' Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Miss Annie Gallagher, IV, Kirkwood Street, Rutherglen, has had her pension reduced from 15s. per week to 9s. per week; that the deceased soldier, John Gallagher, No. 98,380, Royal Garrison Artillery, maintained his sister and paid her 30s. per week for rent and food; that owing to this reduction Miss Gallagher has been compelled to apply for parish relief; that the parish council has given her a weekly allowance of 6s., which is the amount by which this pension has been reduced; and, seeing that this burden is now placed upon a locality instead of on the State, will he agree to reconsider this case?

This case has been reviewed under the arrangements made for dealing with complaints in cases of this nature, and I am glad to inform my hon. Friend that, in the result, the original pension will be restored, with effect from the date of reduction.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction throughout the country caused by the reductions in dependants' pensions; that many of the reductions are made on inaccurate information; and that there is considerable delay in obtaining a re-adjustment of the pensions on appeal; and will he consider the appointment of a Parliamentary Committee, representative of all parties, to immediately inquire and report on the subject?

I am aware there is dissatisfaction in this matter, but, as I have already informed the House, full provision is made for any of these pensioners who make complaint to have their cases specially and sympathetically reviewed in the light of any representations they may put forward. All complaints received are being dealt with as rapidly as is consistent with a careful consideration of the pensioners' side of the case. In view of the action already taken, I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion in the last part of the question.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he will reconsider the case of Mrs. Fanny Jane Mary Price, of 54, Latimer Road, Eastbourne, widow of able-seaman James Michael Price, No. J/67,920, who enlisted as an A 1 man in 1917, was examined on his demobilisation in 1919 and found to be suffering from neurasthenia and weak heart, and died in October, 1922, of aortic valvular disease of the heart, and who was receiving a pension of 8s. per week at the time of his death; and, in view of the fact that the widow is left with three small children to support, will he give special consideration to the case?

I am personally looking into the papers in this case, and will communicate with the hon. Member at an early date.

Neubasthenia Cases

asked the Minister of Pensions if his attention has been drawn to the suicide of an ex-service man due to neurasthenia and the stoppage of his disability pension; and whether he will have inquiries made into this case, with a view to giving instructions that the benefit of the doubt should be extended to similar cases on the border line?

I have seen a statement in the Press which corresponds with the first part of the question. I have looked into the facts of the case, but can find no grounds to support the suggestion that the man suffered any injustice at the hands of the Ministry.

Invalided Naval Ratings

asked the Minister of Pensions whether naval ratings who come under the provisions of A.F.O. 414/1919, and whose cause of discharge is Toeing altered by the Admiralty to invalided, are being granted their pensions from the date of discharge, observing that in many cases these ratings are entitled to a pension for service only, and not for disability?

I have given this matter further consideration, and am glad to be able to inform my hon. and gallant Friend that full arrears of pension, or service allowance, will be granted in these cases.

Education Grants

asked the Minister of Pensions how many applications have been recommended by local war pensions committees to the special grants committee for education grants during the past 12 months; how many have been refused; and whether there is any further appeal?

During the past 12 months 3,353 applications for education grants were received through war pensions committees, but I regret that I am not in a position to state how many of these were recommended by the committee. Grants were made in 1,545 cases. The final decision rests with the special grants committee, who deal with the applications in accordance with the provisions of their regulations.

Government Departments

Ministry of Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that certain female members of his staff who are under notice are persons who are without other means, and/or have other persons dependent upon them; whether he will cause inquiries to be made of the, circumstances; and, in the case of those who are efficient and whose duties have been satisfactorily performed, will he take these cases into serious consideration with the view of avoiding the infliction of serious hardship?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. These cases have already been carefully investigated with a view to minimising hardship, and the clerks in question were not placed under notice until all women of comparable efficiency standard whose circumstances gave them less claim to retention had been discharged. I regret that I am unable to modify in their favour the order of demobilisation of the temporary female staff which has been arrived at in April last by agreement with the staff associations concerned: but I am glad to inform the hon. Member that the necessities of the work require the retention of the clerks in question for a period beyond the date at which their present notices expire, and that they have been extended accordingly.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can take steps to accelerate the work of his Department; and whether he is aware that the questions sent to his Department to investigate take six weeks and more before a reply is sent out?

There has recently been a considerable increase in the number of individual pension cases Submitted to me by Members of this House, and in conformity with the directions I recently issued, these have been receiving very thorough investigation. An examination of the cases dealt with in the past eight weeks shows that more than 80 per cent. were disposed of within three weeks. The position is being carefully watched, and I have further directed that the cases are to be examined, with the utmost despatch consistent with proper consideration.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that up to now these cases have taken twice as long as they did under the former Government?

To what cause does the Minister attribute the large increase in the number of cases?

With regard to the first Supplementary Question, I am satisfied from inquiries I have made per- sonally that the figures which I have given are quite accurate. In regard to the second, there are quite a number of causes to which this can be attributed.

Disposal and Liquidation Commission

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total number of people employed under the Disposal Commission on 1st March, 1924, at the headquarters in London, in other parts of London, in the United Kingdom outside London, and abroad; and how many officials with salaries of £1,000 or more per annum were employed by the Disposal Commission at the same date at the headquarters in London, in other parts of London, in the United Kingdom outside London, and abroad?

The total number of people employed on the 1st March, 1924, was 1,675. This figure includes 1,299 industrial staff, which consists in the main of labour employed casually as required on loading, etc., stores. The total of 1,675 is made up as follows: 180 at London headquarters, 253 in other parts of London, 1,239 in other parts of the United Kingdom, and three abroad. Ten officials with salaries of £1,000 or more were employed on the same date, of whom eight were at London headquarters and two were abroad.

Is it not time that some of the outlying depots were closed up, so as to save the very considerable expense now needed for disposing of £8,000,000 of the almost unsaleable remains of war stores'?

Savings Bank

( by Private Notice ) asked the Postmaster-General if about 120 women who have been employed in the Savings Bank Department for periods up to nine years are to be discharged on Saturday next and their places taken by girls; if he has personally investigated the facts, and will he withdraw the notices of discharge pending an inquiry into the whole of the circumstances?

108 of the remaining temporary women clerks in the Savings Bank Department have been given notice, the order of discharge being determined by the Savings Bank Substitution Committee, which was set up in pursuance of the First Report of the Lytton Committee. Some of the notices expired last week, but I suspended them so that I could investigate the matter personally. I am now inquiring into the possibility of finding useful work on which they can be employed for a time, and meanwhile all the notices have been suspended. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!.]

Ex-Service Men

Ministry of Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has completed his consideration of the question of offering alternative employment to ex-service clerks now under notice in his Department; and whether he is in a position to make any statement as to any resulting action which he is prepared to take?

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can make any further statement with regard to the proposed dismissals of competent ex-service men from his Department; how many have received notice to go; and what, if any, alternative employment has been found for them?

I am happy to be able to state that I have arranged to offer alternative employment in London to the temporary clerks under notice of discharge at the end of the present month from regional offices who are desirous of, and can be recommended for, transfer. 95 of the 162 officers now under formal notice are desirous of, and have been recommended for, transfer, and of these 81 are at present stationed in the provinces. It is not yet possible for me to make any announcement on the general position, but I hope to be in a position to do so next week.

Will men who are transferred from the provinces receive the assistance usually given to permanent civil servants who are moving from one district to another or will they pay their own expenses?

I understand that is a question which does not com within, the administration of my Department.

Air Ministry

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why only 25 per cent. of the authorised staff in the Department of Works and Buildings are on an established footing; whether he is aware that the whole of these posts were filled by established civil servants transferred from other Departments; and why is it not possible, after the lapse of so long a time, to grant security of tenure to the remainder of the suitably qualified technical ex-service men employed in this Department?

The answer to the first part of the question is that, in consequence of the abnormal conditions prevailing at the time when the Directorate of Works and Buildings was created, it was considered essential to restrict the established posts to 25 per cent. of the establishment. As regards the second part of the question, only about one third of the established personnel in the directorate were established before transfer to the Air Ministry from other Government Departments. In answer to the last part of the question, it is the intention to review the establishment during the next financial year and the question of the percentage of established posts will be considered concurrently.

also asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether, seeing that it has been possible to secure establishment for the nine divisions of the secretariat where the posts are all filled by permanent civil servants, he will say why it has not been possible to secure an establishment for any of the technical branches of the Ministry where temporary ex-service men are employed; and what is the reason why paragraph 45 of the Third Report of the Lytton Committee has not been put into effect?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 13th instant to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Mills).

Royal Aircraft Establishment

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has refused to receive a deputation from the Cove branch of the British Legion, which is entirely composed of employés of the Royal Aircraft Establish- ment, Farnborough; whether he is aware that every one of his predecessors in office have received deputations from the British Legion; and whether it is his policy to refuse to allow the British Legion to state their case before him?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part of the question, I am of opinion that it is not in the interests of good administration that employés of the Department should be encouraged to approach Ministers by means of deputations from the British Legion or any other association until the grievances of which they complain have been dealt with by the machinery set up for the purpose, namely, the Whitley Councils, or, where the employés belong to a class who have elected not to avail themselves of the Whitley machinery, by representation through the officers under whom they are serving, in accordance with paragraph 18 of the Regulations for Civilian Employed at Air Ministry establishments.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the British Legion have no representation on the Whitley Councils, and is it his policy to force these men to go through the trade unions, instead of going through the British Legion, as they have done with every one of his predecessors?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the major part of the men in question are members of trade unions?

In reply to the Noble Lord, I cannot add to the answer, because I think It covers all the points raised.

Are we to understand that the Secretary of State for Air is receiving no deputations at all?

Then is the hon. Gentleman differentiating between the British Legion and other associations?

I wish to receive deputations which represent the full interests concerned, rather than sectional interests.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the British Legion at the Royal Aircraft Establishment does represent a very definite interest, and that in the case of all previous Secretaries of State for Air it was found most useful to receive their representatives?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 90 per cent. of the unskilled and semi-skilled men at the Farnborough factory are ex-service men and members of the British Legion, and that, therefore, the British Legion is representative of their demands?

May I ask whether the marked disfavour which the hon. Gentleman shows towards the British Legion is on account of the fact that they served their country during the War?

Questions

Aliens

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give the total number of aliens at present residing in Great Britain, excluding Ireland; and if the Government have considered the question as to how far the residence of these aliens is detrimental to the housing, health, and comfort of the British people?

The total number of aliens above the age of 16 registered in Great Britain at the end of last year was 270,986. This number is much less than one per cent. of the total population, and consists mainly of persons who have long been resident in this country. The considerations suggested in the latter part of the question are more relevant to the admission of new-comers, and are given full weight in the administration of the law controlling alien immigration into this country.

Press Representatives (Identification Cards)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the terms of the identification card issued to Press representatives, including Press photographers, by the Metropolitan and City Police; whether he will arrange that the present meaningless recommendation appearing on the identification card will be replaced by directions clearly stating what actual facilities are available to pressmen and photographers for the purpose of their profession?

I am aware of the terms of the card in question. It is a card of identity, and its object is to secure to the holder such facilities and assistance as it may be possible for the police to afford on any particular occasion. It would be quite impracticable to specify particular facilities which could be guaranteed on all occasions.

In view of what happened a week ago, will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements whereby these identification cards may be produced, and facilities refused to those who do not produce them; and ( reading ) is he prepared to detail a police constable to help genuine pressmen and avoid these technical obstructions that occur, in respect of which a case was brought last week?

The hon. Member seems to have that question written down. I should like to see it first.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration, in the case of alleged infringements, whether such persons infringing, or said to be infringing, will get summoned to the Court, instead of being led off like pickpockets caught in the act?

Evictions

asked the Home Secretary if he will provide police protection for tenants against forcible eviction in all cases where no alternative accommodation is available?

Where a competent court has given a landlord possession of a tenement, I have no power to prevent the order being carried out.

What is the position of people who have no alternative accommodation, and whose goods are put out on the street?

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce legislation concerning evictions in England on similar lines to the proposals he has promised to introduce in relation to Scotland?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the many evictions taking place throughout the country and the fact that considerable time will be required for the consideration of the Rent Restrictions Bill now before Standing Committee A, he will bring before the House a short Bill to make provision that suitable alternative accommodation shall be provided in all cases before eviction orders are granted by the courts?

This question is under consideration with a view to meeting that difficulty.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state when this matter will be introduced, having regard to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has already promised legislation in regard to Scotland?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was an adjournment of the Committee on the Rent Restrictions Bill this morning at the instigation of the hon. Gentleman opposite?

Prisoners (Private Clothes)

asked the Home Secretary if he will take steps to see that reasonable care is taken of prisoners' private clothes during terms of imprisonment?

Under existing instructions, reasonable care has to be taken. If any instance is quoted in which reasonable care has not been taken, it will be inquired into.

Electoral Register (Railway Guards)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that on the 8th March the registration officer for Bristol refused the claim of 59 Great Western Railway Company's guards to be placed on the absent voters' list, despite the definite provision contained in paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 of the Representation of the People Act, 1918; and whether, seeing that the men concerned are mostly engaged with goods traffic, and that the nature of their work must make it difficult for them to exercise the franchise, he will have inquiry made with a view to informing the registration officer of the law in this respect?

I have communicated with the registration officer, and am informed by him that the evidence was to the effect that these men went away one day and came back the next, and that it was the practice of the railway company to make special arrangements to enable them to record their votes. In these circumstances, he was not satisfied that the condition laid down in the Act, that there is a probability that the men may be debarred from voting, was fulfilled. Whether the registration officer rightly applied the provision of the Act to these cases can only be determined by a Court.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in other cases, like North St. Pancras, where there are similar railway men, they are allowed to be registered as absent voters, whether away a day or a whole week?

Ex-Inspector Syme

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the case of ex-Inspector Syme; whether he proposes to set up a small Committee to inquire into the case; and, if so, who are the members of the Committee; what is their reference; and when they are expected to report to him?

This case is still under consideration; and I am not yet in a position to make any statement.

Is it not a fact that, since 1909, every Home Secretary has inquired into this case, and refused to reverse the decision of the Commissioners?

Is it not the case that when Mr. Winston Churchill was Home Secretary he offered to reinstate this man in a reduced category in the same force?

Is it not a fact that ex-Inspector Syme refused that offer of the Home Secretary?

In reference to the supplementary questions, the answer in both cases is in the affirmative.

Licensed Premises and Registered Clubs

asked the Home Secretary the number of licences which have been withdrawn in England and Wales on grounds of redundancy since the Licensing Act of 1904, and the number of registered clubs which have been established in the same period?

Full information on this subject is contained in the Annual Licensing Statistics. The volume for 1922 shows that, out of some 18,009 on licences extinguished since January, 1905, 13,531 were extinguished under the compensation provisions first enacted in the Licensing Act of 1904. During the same period registered clubs increased by about 4,534—from 6,589 to about 11,123.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the drink consumption in clubs is far less than the general consumption outside?

Jury Service

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Mr. W. J. Francis, a working engineer, of Highgate, was summoned for jury service at the Old Bailey on 26th February last; that between that date and 7th March he attended by order on five separate days, during which he only served upon one jury for two hours; that although he lost £5 6s. in wages he received neither payment nor expenses; and whether he will take steps to reimburse this man for his loss of wages?

I profoundly regret there are no funds at my disposal for reimbursing jurors for such pecuniary loss as they may sustain through discharging this public duty.

Rear Lights and Reflectors

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the inconvenience and obstruction to overtaking traffic and the danger caused by sudden swerving, he will take the necessary steps to enforce reflectors being carried on the off-side of all motor vehicles; and whether he will take steps making it compulsory for rear lights or red reflectors to be carried on cycles?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am not satisfied that the advantages alleged to be obtained from the carrying of reflectors on all motor vehicles are such as to justify a compulsory requirement. It would require legislation to give effect to the proposal contained in the second part of the question, and when it is decided to introduce a Bill dealing generally with the lighting of road vehicles, I will carefully consider this point.

Will the hon. Gentleman remember that this is a question of protecting human life as against a little personal inconvenience, and may I have the opportunity of talking the matter over with him? I feel very strongly on this question.

asked the Home Secretary if he has received a copy of a resolution passed by the Surrey County Council to the effect that all bicycles and push-carts should carry a rear red light or suitable red reflector; and whether he is pepared to take action in the matter?

I have been asked to answer this question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It would require legislation to give effect to the proposal made, and when it is decided to introduce a Bill dealing generally with lights on road vehicles, I will carefully consider this point.

First Offenders

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that first-offender prisoners are in association in London prisons with second-division prisoners having previous convictions; and whether he will take immediate steps to have all London first-offender prisoners transferred to one of the London prisons which has a separate wing suitable for their accommodation in which it will be impossible for them to come into association with past offenders?

The Prison Commissioners have now under consideration a scheme for transferring offenders of good previous character in London to a prison with a separate wing, and they hope to be able to carry it into effect before long.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been under consideration for a very long time, and that nothing is done, and that in the meantime all these first offenders are in association in prison with men who have been in prison before?

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that those charged with a first offence in a police court are then frequently unable from ignorance of the procedure of the courts or nervousness to state the nature of their defence or the circumstances in which they were at the time of the alleged offence being committed; whether, in the case, at any rate, of those against whom no previous offence is recorded, he will arrange that the defendant is allowed to have an interview in the cells with the probation officer before going before the magistrate or magistrates; and whether he will take the necessary steps to ensure that, in the case of the first offender, the report of the probation officer shall be obtained, and be before the magistrate or magistrates before any conviction is recorded?

I believe that magistrates are always ready to give special consideration to ignorant or nervous defendants, but if any further assistance for such persons were required, the suggestion of the hon. Member is not one which I could support. It would in my opinion be wrong to employ probation officers in the manner suggested. I agree with the opinion expressed on this point by the Departmental Committee on the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, which reported in 1909, and I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 36 of the copy which I have sent him.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although he may be under the impression that magistrates everywhere do their duty in these respects, on many occasions men go to prison without having had any assistance whatever in their defence?

If the hon. Member will call my attention to any particular case, I will inquire into it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why it is impossible to obtain a report from the probation officers?

Prisoners (Legal Aid)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the provision for supplying poor prisoners with legal aid in the preparation and conduct of their defence on trial at assizes or quarter sessions is contingent on their disclosing the nature of their defence before the committing magistrates; that the fact that there is a right to defence at the public expense is not disclosed to the defendant before he goes into the dock, except in so far as it appears on a cell card, which is not usually brought to his notice; and whether, in future, instructions will be given which will insure that the conditions under which such legal aid is given are disclosed by the committing magistrates before committing and also disclosed by a printed notice in the dock itself?

The cell cards are prominently displayed and are very explicit; but further steps will be taken to see that all prisoners are acquainted with the conditions under which they can obtain legal assistance.

"Remember" Matches

asked the Home Secretary whether, seeing that the matches known as "Remember" matches offered for sale by the Disabled Soldiers' and Sailors' Match Industry, 104, High Ho]born, W.C.1, are not in fact manufactured in this country by disabled soldiers and sailors, he will give instruc- tions to the police to see that the public are not victimised by charitable appeals on fraudulent grounds?

The police have already had their attention called to this matter, and I am sure it can safely be left to them to take action if facts come to their knowledge which would warrant criminal proceedings.

Iraq (Treaty)

asked the Prime Minister when the Treaty of 10th October, 1922, between His Majesty's Government and the Government of King Feisal will be brought before this House for ratification; whether it has been ratified by the Assembly at Bagdad; and what has been the reason up to now why this Treaty has not been ratified?

It has already been stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that the Treaty with King Feisal, with the Protocol of April, 1923, and subsidiary agreements, will be submitted to the House before ratification. I am unable to give a date. The Treaty has still to be accepted by the Iraq Constituent Assembly, which has not yet held its first meeting.

Industrial Disputes (Food Prices)

asked the Prime Minister if he will introduce legislation making illegal the raising of prices of food and essentals during periods of strikes and lock-outs?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Prime Minister in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. Harms-worth) on the 20th February.

American Goods (Preferential Rates)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the order issued by the American Inter-State Commerce Commission giving preferential rates to American goods carried on American railways when intended for export and preferential rates if shipped in American vessels; and whether, as this will mean that British vessels will be compelled to make their east-bound voyages without cargoes, he will make representations on the matter, or whether, alternatively, he will take steps to make similar regulations for ships sailing for America from British ports?

My attention has been drawn to the Order referred to in the question, and the matter is being carefully considered.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Order is in direct contravention of the principle that there should be no discrimination against Britain, and will he call the attention of the League of Nations to the matter?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bring the matter before the League of Nations?

Ex-Ranker Officers (Pensions)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will refer to the tribunal about to be set up to consider the claims of ex-ranker officers to an increase of pension the claims of ex-acting paymasters?

In so far as the question relates to officers who were ranker pensioners when they were given temporary commissions in the Royal Army Pay Corps, their claims will be considered in common with other ranker pensioners who held temporary commissions. As regards other classes of acting paymasters, the fact that they were engaged on a civilian contract and that they were at no time members of the Army clearly puts their case outside the scope of the proposed committee.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that they deny the fact of civilian occupation?

Can the right hon. Gentleman state the precise terms of the reference to the committee or tribunal?

Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister said that this inquiry was limited to persons who had combatant service?

Agriculture (Government Policy)

asked the Prime Minister whether, before the House rises for the Easter Recess, he can make any further statement as to the Government's policy to help agriculture?

Until the Government has considered the Final Report of the Agricultural Tribunal of Investigation, which it is hoped to receive within the next few weeks, I do not contemplate that any further general statement with regard to agricultural policy will be possible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that none of the proposals made so far with regard to agriculture would in the least assist either the small farmer of arable land or his men; therefore will he expedite his inquiries?

Does the Government intend to take action on any of the proposals of the Agricultural Tribunal which have already been made?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was a promise made by the Minister of Agriculture that he would bring in a Measure for an Agricultural Wages Board immediately?

I think the reply I gave to the main question is an answer to the points of the supplementary questions.

Are we to understand that a Bill dealing with an Agricultural Wages Board will be introduced before Easter as promised by the Minister of Agriculture?

Naval Programme

asked the Prime Minister whether, in regard to the curtailment of the naval programme of the Government as compared with that of the late Government, he will agree to leave the decision to a free vote of the House, including the question of five or eight cruisers?

French Exchange

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government was consulted by the banks and/or by the French Government with reference to the credit recently advanced by banking institutions in this country to support the French exchange; and whether he can state the amount of the credit so advanced?

No, Sir; the London market is open to borrowers, and it is the established practice of successive Governments not to intervene in its transactions. I have no special information as to the last part of the question.

Does the French Government owe any money to the Bank of England?

Quakers' Yard, Industrial School

asked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention to close the industrial school at Quakers' Yard; and whether, seeing that all the contributing authorities to the school have protested against the proposal of the Home Office to close the school, he will defer any such action until he has interviewed the representatives of the authorities concerned?

It has been decided to close the Quakers' Yard Industrial School, because the amount of accommodation for children in schools of this character is much greater than is required. Any representations which the managers or local authorities desire to make to me will receive careful consideration.

Registration (Conscientious Objectors)

asked the Home Secretary whether the action of certain registrars in admitting conscientious objectors to the Parliamentary Register prior to the conclusion of the period of disfranchisement applying to such men has been brought to his notice; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take to enforce the law on the subject?

No, Sir; I am not aware of any instances in which registration officers have admitted to the Parliamentary Register conscientious objectors disqualified under Section 9 of the Representation of the People Act, 1918.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the reports of this matter that have appeared in the public Press—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—of the protests that have been made, and that one registrar at least has refused to admit these men until their period of disfranchisement has expired?

I have no power to interfere when a man's name has been placed upon the register of electors.

Holloway Prison (Sisters' Quarters)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the conditions of the sisters' quarters in Holloway Prison; and whether he will make inquiry and, if necessary, take immediate steps to remedy the state of their accommodation, especially in their sleeping apartments?

Special accommodation was prepared for the nurses at Holloway Prison and, so far as the Prison Commissioners are aware, no complaint has been made about them, although the prison representative officer provides a regular channel through which such representations can be submitted.

Communist Correspondence

asked the Home Secretary whether he has recently received any representations from Mr. Inkpen, the secretary of the Communist party, concerning certain correspondence; and whether he has taken any action in the matter?

I have received communications from Mr. Inkpen with regard to the stopping of certain correspondence in the post. It would be contrary to the public interest to state what action I have or have not taken in such a case.

Is there any truth in the statement made by this gentleman that the right hon. Gentleman has relaxed any of the precautions taken by his predecessors?

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to carry out the policy of his predecessors in interfering with the private correspondence of citizens of this country?

Workmen's Compensation

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been directed to the decision in the Courts to the effect that where redemption is secured of a weekly payment under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, section one of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1923, which provides for the continued payment of the additional compensation conferred by the Workmen's Compensation (War Addition) Act, does not apply; and whether he can take action to secure that the intention of Parliament, when section one of last year's Act was passed, shall be made operative?

I am aware of one such case. It was undoubtedly intended by the Act of 1923 to confer on every workman injured before the commencement of the Act the right to the continued payment of the War addition during total disablement, whether or not his weekly payments under the Act of 1906 have been commuted, and if it were finally decided by the Courts in a contrary sense amending legislation would have to be considered. The matter must, however, first be authoritatively determined on appeal.

asked the Home Secretary what was the amount paid in premiums to insurance companies to insure against all risks under the Workmen's Compensation Acts for the year 1923 in the coal-mining industry; and the amount paid out by these insurance companies during the same year as compensation for accidents to miners injured or to their relatives for miners killed in the coalmining industry?

I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the question is not available. As regards the second part, the collective returns furnished by the insurance companies on behalf of the employers insured with them are not yet all in. When they have all been received and tabulated, I could, if desired, state the amount paid in compensation in this industry by those companies which furnish returns.

Summer Time

asked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement concerning the period of summer time this year?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to questions on this subject on the 13th instant. As I stated then, I propose to make a statement upon the whole matter when the hon. Member's Bill on the subject comes on; and perhaps he would confer with me in the meantime.

Murder Convictions (Young Persons)

asked the Home Secretary if he will give the number of young persons under 16 years of age convicted of murder or treason for the years 1894–1908, and the number convicted of the same offences during 1909–23?

In England and Wales no person under 16 was convicted of treason in either period. In the first period, 1894 to 1908, one was convicted of murder; in the second period, 1909–1923, six were convicted. Special verdicts of guilty but insane are not included.

Prisons (Temporary Officers)

asked the Home Secretary the number of hours per week worked by temporary officers in His Majesty's prisons?

The hours of temporary officers employed by day vary from 8 to 10 a day, and those of the night patrols are 10.

Farms and Nurseries (Machinery)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received representations from any workers' organisations to bring machinery used on farms and nurseries within the Factory Act Rules and Regulations; and, if so, what action does he propose to take in the matter?

Certain representations have been received. The safeguarding of machinery used in agricultural and horticultural work does not come within the scope of the Factory Acts, and I doubt if it would be possible to apply the Factory Act system to such work. The Home Office is in consultation with the Ministry of Agriculture as to the possibility of further steps being taken to secure the safeguarding of machinery used in farms and nurseries.

Women Prisoners

asked the Home Secretary how many prisons there are in the country specially reserved for women prisoners, and where they are situated; whether women are kept in any prisons where men prisoners are detained; and, if so, how many prisons are so used?

With the hon. Member's permission I will circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

There are 16 prisons and one Borstal institution into which female prisoners are received. They are situated in the following places:

Birmingham.

Cardiff.

Durham.

Exeter.

Holloway.

Hull.

Leeds.

Maidstone.

Liverpool.

Manchester.

Newcastle.

Norwich.

Nottingham.

Portsmouth.

Preston.

Winchester.

Aylesbury.

One prison (Holloway) and one Borstal institution (Aylesbury) receive female prisoners only.

Education

Provision of Meals

asked the President of the Board of Education if he has withdrawn the circular issued by his predecessor limiting the amount local education authorities may spend on school meals; and whether local education authorities may now exercise their complete discretion in providing meals for necessitous school children and receive assistance from the Board of Education in payment of the same?

For a statement of my right hon. Friend's attitude upon this matter, I may refer the hon. Member to the reply which he gave on the 14th February last to my hon. Friend the Member for the Northern Division of St. Pancras (Mr. Marley). A copy of that reply has been circulated to all local education authorities.

Salaries (War Service)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will reconsider the position of teachers who served in the Friends Ambulance Unit during the War and others who were captured by the enemy and interned, with a view to permitting the period when they were serving the nation to count for increment and placing these men at any rate in a position not less favourable than those teachers who did not enlist?

The conditions upon which the Board are prepared to recognise for grant the counting of war service in the calculation of salary are stated in Circulars 1227 and 1318, copies of which are being sent to my hon. Friend. The position of the teachers to whom he refers was carefully considered at a very recent date when Circular 1318 was in preparation, and my right hon. Friend regrets that he is not in a position to re-open the matter.

Is it not extremely unfair to teachers who join the Army, many of whom were captured and interned by the enemy, that they cannot have these periods counted for the grant, while other teachers who did not so enlist are permitted to have this grant?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in innumerable cases the local authorities have thrown over this system of counting for service, and giving grants in addition to the salaries, and that the whole scheme has been thrown over in many instances?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in the case of members of the unit referred to serving under the British Red Cross, a number of them lost their lives in the service of the wounded, and that these teachers went through the same risk and served without pay the whole time, and is that not worthy of consideration?

All these points have already been considered very carefully by my right hon. Friend, and I regret that I cannot add anything to my answer

Training (University Grants)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that since inducements were held out to young people in 1920 to enter the teaching profession conditions have greatly changed; and whether, in view of the changed prospects and the unemployment among teachers, he can see his way to release teachers who have received State grants towards University training from their obligations of repayment of such grants that they may be able to find other employment?

My right hon. Friend is well aware of the difficulties which have arisen in connection with the unemployment among teachers, and he hopes they may be less serious in the future. He would, however, point out that the undertaking which the teachers signed provided for their release from any financial obligation in respect of any period during which they were unable to find employment as teachers.

Teachers' Superannuation

asked the President of the Board of Education what has become of the payments received from teachers under the Superannuation Act of 1922, which fixed a yearly contribution of 5 per cent. on each teacher's salary until 1925 towards the cost of superannuation provided for by the Act of 1918; and what is the total amount so received?

The sums received under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1922, are applied as Appropriations-in-Aid of the moneys provided by Parliament for the expenses of the Board of Education. The Act operated from the 1st June, 1922, and the contributions received by the Board in 1922–23 (10 months) were £2,070,391 9s. 5d. The contributions to be received by the Board in the current year will amount to about £2,400,000.

I beg to give notice that at the first possible opportunity, I shall ask the House to take notice of this matter.

asked the President of the Board of Education if he proposes to introduce superannuation legislation based upon the Report of the Emmott Committee; and, if so, when?

The matter is receiving consideration, and my right hon. Friend is not at present in a position to make a statement upon it.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the present system lapses in June or July of this year, and what steps will he take immediately to relieve the anxieties of the teachers on this subject?

Acting Teachers' Certificate Examination

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is now in a position to state whether the Board will hold the acting teachers' certificate examination after November, 1924?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he can add nothing to the reply ho gave, on the 14th February last, to the hon. Members for Thornbury (Mr. Rendall) and Wednesbury (Mr. Short).

Will the hon. Gentleman have regard to the necessities of the teachers concerned, who hardly know for what examination they should now prepare?

My right hon. Friend is awaiting the Report of the Departmental Committee on the training of teachers.

Nursery Schools

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is prepared to remove the restrictions imposed on local education authorities in regard to the establishment of nursery schools, under paragraph 10, Circular 1,190, and paragraph 5, Circular 1,269, and to sanction the opening of nursery schools under conditions to be approved by his Department?

My right hon. Friend is prepared to consider sympathetically any proposals which may be made to him for the establishment of new nursery schools in suitable localities. The experience of the last few years has shown that it is possible to do useful work in these schools by fairly simple means and without prohibitive expense, and he would be ready to entertain proposals which reach a reasonable standard of usefulness and efficiency.

Handicraft Instructors

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will state the subjects in which handicraft instructors must qualify; whether the previously issued instructions by the Board are still enforced, and handicraft teachers engaged after January, 1921, must obtain the elementary school teachers' certificate or have a correspondingly reduced salary; and whether he will consider the remission of such order in the case of handicraft instructor B. F. Mott, 49, Forest Lane, Stratford, who commenced duties with the West Ham education authority 21st January, 1921?

The qualifications required for recognition as a handicraft teacher in a public elementary school are stated in Rule 6 of Schedule I.E. of the Code. The amount of salary which the Board are prepared to recognise for grant in the case of these teachers is governed by paragraph 6 of the Report of the Burnham Committee issued in September, 1920. My right hon. Friend has considered the case mentioned by my hon. Friend, but he regrets that he cannot undertake to depart from the recommendations of the Committee in individual instances.

Teachers' Increments (Dominion Service)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he will state the reason of the Board's reversal of policy in refusing to recognise educational services in the Dominions for increments in salary at Home; whether he is aware that this reversal of policy resulted in the case of a teacher at the Verdin technical central school, Winsford, Cheshire, in a reduction this financial year from £367 10s. gross to £260 gross, and that this reduction was made without reason or notice given; and whether the Board have stated, or will state, their reason for this reduction to the teacher in question?

The Board's decision in this matter was taken in consultation with the Burnham Committee and was announced in October, 1921, by Circular 1234, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Gentleman. There has been no reversal of policy. In the case of the teacher referred to, the local education authority appear to have continued to count his service overseas notwithstanding the provisions of Circular 1234. The whole question is now engaging my attention.

Does the hon. Member realise that this policy is a tremendous discouragement to the exchange of teachers between different parts of the Empire, which is of great value to the teaching profession?

I can only say that the question is now being considered with the Dominions.

Questions

Royal Air Force (Cadets' Fees)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what fees, if any, are charged for cadets under instruction for the Royal Air Force?

Particulars of the fees are given in Appendix I of the Regulations for Cranwell, of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether those fees are charged to cadets? I want to know now.

Is the policy of the Government to abolish those fees which may keep deserving lads who are poor out of the Air Service?

If we had sufficient encouragement from the House, we might do something on the lines which the hon. and gallant Member has suggested.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has a clear majority in the House for that policy?

Air Service, London-Prague

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has anything further to report with regard to the proposed air service between London and Prague?

No, Sir. The position is still as stated in my reply on 28th February to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy).

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a great key centre, and that this very lengthy delay is extremely detrimental to British aviation?

Necessitous Areas (Loans)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in how many cases has the payment of interest been deferred on loans made by the State to necessitous boards of guardians to meet abnormal expenditure on poor relief due to excessive unemployment under the scheme of assistance to local authorities promised by the last Government?

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT on the 13th March in reply to a question which the hon. Member for Stepney, Mile End (Mr. Scurr) addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of waiving the first year's interest on these loans?

Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer be more sympathetic to the demands of local authorities than his predecessor was?

My original question was put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I submit that the supplementary question is rightly addressed to him, without my being snubbed by the Parliamentary Secretary.

The supplementary question put by the hon. Member raises another point.

Is not the hon. Gentlemen aware that his chief at the Ministry of Health expressed himself in favour of loans to local authorities being without interest?

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Income Tax, he will consider the desirability of changing the basis of liability under Schedule D from the three years' average profits to the preceding year's profits?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Guildford (Sir H. Buckingham) on the 21st February. I am sending him a copy of that reply.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that inspectors of taxes are supplied by the Inland Revenue authorities with a special book or document in connection with all current case law and taxation matters and that this book or document is being added to continually and kept up to date, chartered accountants, as representing the Income Tax payers, can be given access to this information and be able to purchase the book or document?

The reports of judicial decisions on questions of Revenue law, which are periodically published by His Majesty s Stationery Office, may be purchased by the general public either direct from that Department or through the usual agents. For the rest, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, in the exercise of their statutory duties in relation to all the taxes placed under their care and management, have frequent occasion to give instructions and advice to their inspectors and other officers. These communications are conveyed sometimes orally and sometimes in writing. I am not prepared to authorise the publication of internal communications of this character.

In the interest of the Income Tax payers can they be given every assistance to get all the information which will enable them only to pay Income Tax on what they are entitled to pay, and is it the settled policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to secure from any Income Tax payer a penny more than he is entitled to pay?

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue and the officials of that Department are always ready and willing to give every possible assistance.

Does my right hon. Friend think that all Income Tax payers give correct returns every year?

I am afraid these supplementary questions are wandering rather far from the original question.

Perpetual Pensions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that on the 16th May, 1889, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the House would thereafter have the opportunity of discussing the terms of the commutation of any perpetual pension; and whether that opportunity will be given in the case of the proposed commutation of the pension now paid to Lord Rodney?

My predecessor's pledge in 1889 was to lay on the Table the terms of a proposed commutation for 30 days, in order that the House might have an opportunity of passing an opinion on the proposal. A Treasury Minute has been laid accordingly, as in previous cases. I should welcome a discussion of the matter, but in the present state of business I am afraid it is impossible to give special time for it.

Did not the undertaking expressly state that an opportunity would be given to the House for discussing the terms, and what purpose was there in referring to that undertaking in the Treasury Paper if, in fact, the opportunity was to be denied to the House?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very strong feeling exists upon this question that the price of commutation is too high entirely?

I have already stated that I would welcome any opportunity of discussing this question, but I am quite sure that every Member of the House realises the difficulty in which the Government is placed at present, owing to the congested state of business. It may be that an opportunity will arise within the next few days. Subject, of course, to what you, Mr. Speaker, may rule, I should think it will be possible to raise at least some aspects of this question in the discussion on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

As the right hon. Gentleman has referred to me, I may say that, in my opinion, it will be in order, on the Consolidated Fund Bill, to discuss the administrative action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in relation to this matter—not, of course, the original pension, but the method of commutation.

Would it be in order, on the Consolidated Fund Bill, not merely to raise the action of the Government in commuting this pension, or proposing to commute it, but, as an administrative act, to do away with this pension altogether?

That would require legislation. The original pension is on the Consolidated Fund. The present action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, however, be open to discussion on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

As the matter is to be taken up on the Consolidated Fund Bill, on which also the pension itself must be taken up—but perhaps I have misunderstood your ruling?

The hon. Member has misunderstood, perhaps, the use of the terms. A pension placed on the Consolidated Fund is one which is outside the scope of Parliamentary discussion, in the same way as are the salaries of the Judges. The term Consolidated Fund Bill is quite another matter.

As it would be impossible to get a separate vote on this question in the discussion on the Consolidated Fund Bill, would it not be possible, considering the promises that have been made, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withdraw the Order which has been made and which is now on the Table of the House, in view of the fact that the Government have taken all the time of private Members, and let us have a discussion and vote on this actual subject?

Is there not another person who has a final decision in this matter, outside this House?

There are certain features in this matter which, as I am quite certain hon. Members, if they were possessed of the whole facts, would realise, it is not advisable, at this stage, at any rate, should be discussed. In reply to a supplementary question last week, I said that the commutation and terms are subject to ratification by the Court of Chancery.

Estate Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the solicitors of the Inland Revenue are threatening to take legal proceedings for the payment of estate duty from an executor and trustee who divided an estate after receiving a written assurance from the estate duty office that no duty was payable; and whether such contemplated action has his approval?

If the hon. Member will give me particulars of the case to which he refers, I will cause inquiry to be made, and communicate to him the result in due course.

University of London (Bloomsbury Site)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any agreement has yet been arrived at between the Treasury, the University of London, and King's College as to the use to which the site in Bloomsbury acquired by the Government some years ago is to be put?

No decision has yet been reached. The matter is under consideration, and was recently discussed with deputations from the University of London and from King's College.

Alcohol (Perfumery and Toilet Preparations)

90 and 91.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will grant a rebate on alcohol used in the manufacture of perfumery and toilet preparations equal to that which is to-day conceded to the manufacture of drugs;

(2) if he will revert to the practice in operation from 1902 to 1915, when spirit used by druggists and manufacturers of perfumes and toilet preparations were levied at the same rate, namely, 14s. 9d.

per proof gallon, whereas the latter is now charged 74s. per proof gallon while the druggist is charged at the same rate as in 1902?

As regards the first question, I am unable to anticipate the Budget statement. As regards the second, I would point out that the hon. Member is under a misapprehension in stating that spirits used in the manufacture of medicines are dutied at the present time at the same rate as in 1902. The duty of 14s. 9d. per gallon now applicable to spirits used in medical preparations operated from 1910, and that increase in duty was applied to spirits of all kinds.

There are very strong reasons for it of an administrative character. It is, I understand, much easier to evade the revenue when spirits are used for perfumery purposes than for medicinal purposes.

The United States are not altogether exempt from contingencies with regard to the liquor law.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, in coming to a decision on this question, the amount of employment which will be given by a reduction of the tax?

German Reparation Duty (Dyestuffs)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the price of German dye-stuffs to the British purchaser has not been reduced by the reduction of 21 per cent. in the reparation duty; and whether, as the whole of the reduction in the duty is being retained by the Germans without any advantage to the British trader, he will consider the reimposition of the duty at 26 per cent.?

I have been asked to reply. The explanation of the circum- stances to which the hon. Member alludes is necessarily somewhat long, and L propose, with his permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

I am aware that the price of German dyestuffs has not been reduced, but I am informed that practically the whole of the German dyestuffs imported into this country during the last few months have been against contracts made with the German suppliers prior to the 17th November last, and in respect of which the German Government undertook to continue to refund the amount of reparation levy, provided that delivery were made before the end of March, 1924. The price of deliveries made after that date would have been subject to an increase corresponding to the amount of the levy. The present position is, therefore, that the British importer now pays 95 per cent. of the purchase price of any dyes imported to the German exporter, and 5 per cent. to the Customs, instead of 74 per cent. to the exporter and 26 per cent. to the Customs, as was formerly the case. Consequently, no reduction in prices is to be expected as a result of the alteration in the amount of the levy. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

British Empire Exhibition

Lord Parmoor's Letter

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a letter written to the Press by the Lord President of the Council (Lord Parmoor) as President of the North-Western Free Trade Union, criticising the work of the Imperial Economic Conference and stating that the demands for Imperial Preference cannot be really effective without injuring our friendly relations with foreign people and making the British Empire to the rest of the world an object of increasing dislike, and further declaring his intention of organising a Free Trade exhibit at Wembley; whether this letter has his approval; and whether it is the desire of His Majesty's Government that the British Empire Exhibition shall be used for the purpose of partisan political propaganda.

My attention had not been drawn to the letter to which this question refers, and in the limited time at my disposal since the question came into my hands I have not been able to get a complete copy of the letter. I have now seen the extracts from it, which appeared in the Press this morning. It is certainly not the desire of His Majesty's Government that the British Empire Exhibition should be used for the purpose of partisan political propaganda, and I regret if any impression to that effect should be conveyed by the letter in question. The attitude of His Majesty's Government was conveyed to the House during the debate yesterday.

I had intended to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House on this subject, having regard to the importance of this letter and the high position of the writer. In the present state of public business I do not propose to do that, but I would ask the Leader of the House if he would be good enough to arrange that to-morrow, when the Report stage of the Supplementaries is taken. Yesterday's Votes may be put down first so that we may be able to raise this question on the Vote for the British Empire Exhibition.

No question has been put to me, and I do not give a ruling unless a question is put to me.

Can you, Sir, say, in any case, whether this is a matter on which the Adjournment could be moved?

I hope I am sufficiently wary not to give a reply to a hypothetical question.

The Vote is down for to-morrow, and I understand that it is part of a block of Votes that have been agreed upon. As far as the Government is concerned, it does not mind how the Votes are taken provided we get them all according to the agreement.

Is the Prime Minister of opinion that, in view of the fact that Protection has been abandoned by the other side, a Free Trade exhibition could not be partisan political propaganda.

Sunday Opening

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the feeling which exists in this country against the opening of the British Empire Exhibition at Wembley on Sundays, the Government will undertake, before agreeing to consider legislation for this purpose, to receive representations from those who are opposed to the proposal?

As was stated last night in the House by my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, legislation would be required in order to permit of the British Empire Exhibition being opened to the public on Sundays. I am informed that the executive council of the British Empire Exhibition are not in favour of such legislation being undertaken.

Business of the House

Can the Deputy-Leader of the House say what will be the business for next week?

On Monday, Army Estimates, Report; Air Estimates, Report.

Tuesday, Navy Estimates, Report; Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill, Report and Third Reading.

Wednesday, Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, Second Reading.

Thursday, Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, Committee and remaining stages.

As to Friday's business, that will be announced later.

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to suspend the Four o'clock rule to-morrow?

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how far he proposes to proceed to-night, and whether he intends to sit up late?

It is never our intention to sit up late, and we hope it will not be necessary to do so. In the event of the House accepting the Motion on the Paper to-day, we intend to use it only to obtain the necessary Votes in Committee of Supply for the Air Estimates and the Navy Estimates, together with the necessary Committee stage of Resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether it was part of the agreement that all the Reports of Supplementary Estimates should be finished to-morrow before Four o'clock, or whether the arrangement was that all the Reports of the Supplementary Estimates and other Estimates should be completed on Monday night?

The Prime Minister said that an agreement had been come to to take all the Reports to-morrow. May I remind him that J cannot give that agreement unless the Four o'clock rule is suspended to-morrow.

As my hon. Friend knows, I am not one of the channels of communication at the moment, but I understand that the Vote on the British Empire Exhibition is part of a block to be agreed on to-morrow. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, if it is for the convenience of the House to give us the block without suspension, we have no intention of suspending the rule to-morrow, but if we find during to-day, in the course of negotiations, that suspension is necessary, we will put a Resolution down to that effect. I think it might be for the convenience of the House if we could get the block without suspension rather than with suspension. However, we will accommodate ourselves to the convenience of the House, and if it is found during the day that suspension is necessary we will put down the necessary Resolution.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that it will be more convenient to have the suspension on Monday night in case any Vote is outstanding on which discussion is required, rather than put the House to the inconvenience of suspending the Four o'clock rule on Friday?

I think we had better try to get each day's block as we go on, otherwise we shall get into arrears.

It is not included in the Motion on the Paper, so that it cannot be taken after 11 o'clock.

Can it be taken before 11 o'clock? The reason I ask this question is, that it is very inconvenient to have remaining on the Paper Resolutions in which some of us are interested, never knowing when they are going to be taken. I should like the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to tell us, if he can, whether the Vote will be taken.

If the hon. Member looks at the Paper, he will see that this is an allotted day, and, therefore, the Resolution cannot be taken before II o'clock.

As the House well knows, these things are matters of arrangement, and they can be arranged through the proper channels.

Ordered,

"That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, the Proceedings of the Committee of Supply may be taken this day after Eleven of the Clock, and the Proceedings of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Clynes .]

Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill

Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee B.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.

Bill, not amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration To-morrow.

Rawtenstall Corporation Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Orders of the Day

Supply

[4TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Air Estimates, 1924–25

Number of Air Force

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a number of Air Forces, not exceeding 35,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

4.0 P.M.

This is, I think, the fourth occasion on which, either here or in another place, His Majesty's Government has had an opportunity of explaining the Air Estimates of their predecessors. These Estimates will soon be adopted, and we shall pass on to other matters, but hon. Members will not easily dismiss from their minds either these Estimates or the way in which they have been presented. Under these circumstances, at this eleventh hour, I want to ask the Committee to consider these Estimates in general and from a particular point of view, and to have an answer to the definite question as to whether, if they be adopted, the Air Force remains as efficient at it was. In other words, are the Government, in adopting our Estimates, or part of them, reaching the same ends by different avenues, or, to put it colloquially, have they not done so badly-after all? There is a danger that through inexperience and under the stress of addressing this House for the first time, which I deeply feel, I may spoil my case by overstating it, and I wish right away to admit that, of course, it is a consideration that these Estimates are not the present Government's Estimates. The task of a step-parent is traditionally ungrateful. But it is true also to say that the present Government are not the first Government that have had to present the Estimates of their predecessors. I should view with apprehension the introduction and incorporation into our constitutional practice of a doctrine which allowed every fresh Ministry an initial stage of coma, and such a demand has not been made in the past. I have had the curiosity to turn up the speech made by the present Lord Chancellor in 1906 in introducing the Estimates of his predecessors. I wonder if the House will permit me to read a very short extract, because I think it is pertinent. He said:

The Committee would not demand—it would be unreasonable—from the Under-Secretary of State for Air that he should with any meticulous detail go into every minute Estimate bearing on lethal weapons—a most uncongenial task I should imagine—but surely it is not really the technical details of this kind that are the centre of the picture. What exactly was the situation with which the Government found themselves faced? I am telling the Committer what it has heard before, but it may be pertinent to once more recapitulate. There was a Vast and deadly service improvised at the time of the War pampered, and rightly pampered, with every sum of money that it demanded. This Service, rightly or wrongly, was practically wiped out, and then, in the striking phrase of the present Secretary of State for Air, it was saved from this spinning nose dive by the skill of the late Secretary of State. I wonder if in the whole history of British Administration there has ever been a parallel problem? The designers of this new model were faced with at least four main problems and difficulties. They had before them, first, the need for thinking in an utterly different series of financial values; they had, secondly, to alter the whole scale of the design in passing from the old model to the new, always a most difficult task for anyone; they had, thirdly, to keep clear in their minds the exact and different purposes for which the Force would in future be employed; and they had, last of all, to graft their new fabrication no longer into a nation organised for war, but into a war-weary nation trying to organise itself for peace.

The main problem for this Government—and who will deny that they were specially qualified to grapple with it?—was to explain the new position of the Air Force to the country and to make it appeal not merely to the military expert, not merely to the metallurgist, not merely to the leaders of quarterly reviews, but to all classes of the community, and especially to that class for which they claim that they have a special right to speak, from the trade union leader or check-weighman to the factory hand and the docker. What was wanted was not mere talk. We on this side of the House were glad to hear the complimentary references—not a bit too complimentary—to the wonderful personnel and to the permanent officials; but what we wanted and I think had a right to demand was to see on the part of the Government an intelligent appreciation of those hindrances and obstacles which still stand in the way of the development of the Air Force and which mar its popular appeal to the country. We wanted the Government to descend to detail and to foreshadow reform. Let me give a concrete instance of one opportunity at least which it seems to me has been missed. If you take the ordinary man in the street, what is the commonly expressed criticism of the Air Force, and, in particular, the criticism of that scheme of short-service commissions? Put in a word, is it not that the Air Force is a blind alley, that you have some 350 men, taken on for five years' service, leaving at the end of the time with £500 in their pockets? Surely that was a problem which, above all problems, you would have expected a Labour Government to see, to give prominence, and to make some tentative suggestions about. How did the Under-Secretary of State deal with it? beginning in the right direction by negotiation with the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, but it wants handling on a very much larger scale. We want the captains of employment to gather together to assist the Ministry, and we want an individual interest taken in everything. That is not a small matter, but it is a matter without which this stigma of being a blind alley will seriously affect the future prospects of the Air Force.

Take another point. There is no word which is more often on the lips of those who speak about the Air Force than the word "research." That is understandable. It could hardly be otherwise. With the fabric of knowledge accumulated by the last generation crumbling, with new discoveries and pregnant conjectures turned out all over the country in research centres every year or every week, it would be strange if there were not attempts to link up all this intellectual activity and harness it to the service of this new Department. What has the spokesman of the Government to say on that subject? I have discovered that his speeches on the subject since the beginning of the Session filled 21 columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT, of which no fewer than eight are devoted to his personal opinion on the question of disarmament and the futility of attempting to defend this country in the air. To research he devotes one paragraph of 10 lines, lines which are to the effect that the re-organisation of research handed on to him by his predecessors will be adopted, that this will cost more money, and that consequently the Estimates have been increased accordingly. The House can find far more appropriate persons than myself to defend its dignity, but I think that it is little short of disrespectful to dismiss a subject of such moment in this way. After all, we have executive responsibility, delegated it is true to a Committee, with whom, after thrashing out difficulties and urging amendment, it is our respectful duty and pleasure to co-operate. But what co-operation can you have in conditions like these? One might expect at least a passing word as to the reasons for the re-organisation of the research activities of the Ministry, even if they were carried out by their predecessors in office. If that had been ruled out of discussion we might have been told at least what were the many grave problems which were now being tackled and what, if any, progress had been made with tackling them.

The last thing which I should do would be to pose, in any sense of the word, as an expert on research. But I do assert that to attempt to organise research work from a Government Department is to attempt the impossible. After all, research is an attitude of mind. It cannot be centrally controlled any more than religion can be centralised, or than you can reform a party by reforming the central office. After all, research is an insight into the working of the laws of Nature, and you cannot possibly measure that off as you might measure off butter by the inch. The research student is not a man who can be directed by a Government Department with any pressure from an outside authority. He has the mind of the poet, the mystic, and the mountaineer, and to expect him to conform to the rules of the party would be very difficult. Of course, you can have your central testing stations, your depositories of special or expensive apparatus. You can have your technical inventions carried on under Government auspices, you can have your bureau for allotting problems in different directions, and for the tabulation of results. But these ten lines of jejune and colourless chronicle, which the hon. Gentleman devotes to this subject, leave the House in ignorance of what steps have been, are being, or will be taken to establish a liaison and to get a sympathetic understanding with the various research centres of the country, whether they be aerodynamical or mathematical or physiological.

It is true that the estimates may be passed but I think that a large section of the House will pass them with the greatest misgiving. As I came down to the House I passed by the Admiralty statue of King James II, a splendid statue. The Monarch is dressed in Roman dress, but I could not help reflecting that all the skill of Grinling Gibbons did not prevent the King from looking a little cold, and I would suggest that the statue might be moved to the Palace of Westminster to chronicle the fact, and to recall the experience of a Government which is thought by some to have adopted the spirit, by adopting the gaudy costumes and mantle, of their pre- decessors. That, I believe, not to be the case. The fundamental difficulty is that the present Government misunderstand the position of the Air Force. There was a very interesting phrase used by the hon. Member for Hythe (Sir P. Sassoon) in a previous Debate, in which he said that for the first time the Air Force had been taken to the heart of the country. That is true, tremendously true. It has been nationalised and nationalised in the best sense, and I believe that this country will no longer suffer its control to be in a nerveless grasp. The air problem has an odd way of turning up in all kinds of unexpected centres. I believe that more and more the people of this country will see that the foreign policy of this country is the air policy of this country. That is true of Dominion and Colonial policy also, and though philosophers may dispute that, and Leader writers may attempt to turn aside the contention, I do not believe that for long any Government can neglect it, or that if it does neglect it it will not do so at its peril.

As one who had the privilege to serve with the Air Force for 4½ years I would like to say that I do not agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down, that it is a pity that the Minister whom a strange turn of the wheel of fate has put in charge of the Air Force in this House should, when he had spoken 21 columns, have devoted eight of those 21 columns to dealing with disarmament. As an ex-member of the Royal Air Force I should be very much more interested in what he has to say on the question of disarmament than in what he has to say about the Air Force itself. I do not say this in any spirit of disrespect, because I think that the hon. Gentleman, when dealing with the question of disarmament, is dealing with a question that is of more importance at the present time than anything else, when we are discussing anything which has to do with the services. We have had previous examples shown to us by the Government of the position with regard to the services already, and I think that it is time that we had rather more indication from them as to what policy they finally intend to pursue with regard to the Air before we give them the large vote for which we are asked to-day.

As regards the Army, we had the curious spectacle of some of their party proposing a great reduction and the Government opposing it, and as regards the Navy, we have seen a reduction proposed from these benches below the Gangway and the Government opposing it. This is contradictory, and I would like a further indication, before voting this large sum of money, of what the Government policy is to be. We know that they have for the moment adopted the policy of their predecessors, and that that policy consists in endeavouring to extend our Air Force, so that the number of effective machines in four years will have reached 600. Across the Channel we find that France has 1,000 effective machines, and as a new Member I do not see why so many people have burked this question, and talked around it, because we have to recognise that it is this large air armament of France that is inciting us, five years after the end of the War that was to end war, to a great increase in our forces in the Air. France has 1,000 machines to-day. We are hoping to have 600 effective machines in four years' time. I hold that if we were to endeavour to compete in the race for armaments we should find ourselves in the same unfortunate position as a candidate for the Abbey Division, whom some on these benches have supported, has found himself in to-day. We have not a hope of catching up France; while we are paying our debts we have not the money or the opportunity of competing in this race. I do not see that we need attempt to do so.

The prestige and the power of the British Empire are to-day as strong as, if not stronger than, they ever were, and I do not think that we shall find any country in Europe so foolish, in view of the strength of Britain—strength that has been proved and has been so effective—as to attempt to start an air war against Great Britain. We know what happened in 1915, when Germany began the dropping of bombs on this country. It had a remarkable effect upon the psychology of the people of this country. It probably had more to do with the ultimate defeat of Germany than anything else that could have occurred. The Germans did what seemed to be a great deal of harm to the people in the areas affected by the raids, but that harm was infinitesimal compared with the damage done to other countries by warfare. The raids had a certain moral effect, but the chief effect was to incite the people of this country to do all they could to defeat those who had dared to attack us in this way. That lesson has been learned by other countries, and any country which was so mad as to send an air fleet to drop a single bomb on this island would know that from that moment its fate had been sealed. It is far better that these countries should recognise that fact than that we should begin building up an enormous Air Force at very great expense.

We are committed in the present programme of the Government to an increase of the Air Force, and I do not oppose that increase in any way. But in my opinion the best way to make the Air Force effective in future is to see that you have it kept—not extended—within reasonable bounds, and maintained in a very high state of efficiency. We were very lucky, when the War ended, to have such a very highly skilled body of men at the head of the Royal Air Force. I have served with them and I have every respect for them. I have seen extravagance in connection with the building of machines, and so on, but I have not seen extravagance in either the Royal Flying Corps or the Royal Air Force. They have been reasonable in their demands. The Air Force is naturally an expensive force. Matériel lasts a very short time. I hope that the policy of the Government will be that machines are to be used until we have something that is definitely very much better. I do not believe in the fighting arm of the Air Force having its machines changed too often. We should go on until we have something that is really an improvement. For that reason there should be no immediate hurry about bringing in a large number of new types, as long as we are able to build new types quickly. Just as we can build new ships more quickly than foreign countries, so we should be able to build air craft more quickly than other countries, in case of necessity. But emergency building has to be done at very great expense, as we found in the War.

Luckily we have our great engineering works. They are far away from the nearest Power that may attack us. We have in Scotland and in Northern Ireland a wonderful system of engineering works that would be very useful, and in case of emergency would be able to turn out a vast number of aircraft in a very short time. As far as the South of England is concerned, and possibly the East Coast, there would be a certain amount of destruction if we were attacked, but I do not think the destruction would be anything like as great as has been suggested in this House. Anyone who has flown over London must have been struck, first of all, by the vast number of open spaces compared with the area covered by houses. Of course, there would be damage, but to wipe out a big city would call for enormous armaments and an enormous quantity of bombs dropped from the air. At the same time we cannot shut our eyes to the possibility of it. We cannot insure against everything, not even if we are regular subscribers to the "Daily Mail." You find in practical life, when you are insured, that you tumble down and break your leg instead of your neck. We cannot go on paying the premiums that are necessary to provide armaments which will keep us safe against all possible development. The world has become very much smaller, and the distances to be traversed in the air involve a journey, comparatively, of only a few minutes. We would, therefore, want something colossal in order to protect this country from attack by air. In these days, when we have to find work for vast numbers of people and when trade is being hampered by heavy taxation, we cannot continue the race for armaments, in the air or anywhree else. Great Britain's prestige is of more value than vast armaments.

I notice in the Vote that the personnel of the Air Force is to be increased by 2,000 men, and there is to be a further increase before very long. The Secretary of State for Air, in his Memorandum, says by way of warning: that has been almost entirely eliminated since the War, the idea being that it could be built up at very short notice. That is the balloon section. There is at present in this House, in each of the parties, a representative officer who has seen service with the balloons. I am sure that the other two will agree with me that the value of the balloon service in the War was far greater than many people realise. If the War had gone for a short time longer we would have seen an entire change in the type of balloon used. The balloon that was used and did such useful work during the War was about to be scrapped, and to be replaced by a very light type of balloon, a single-seater with a very light cable, and with a system of short-wave wireless telephony that would have interfered with no one else. It would have been so mobile that it could have moved about with the 60-pounder batteries. Such balloons would probably have been manned by artillery officers rather than by trained Air Force officers.

The end of the War came before we had established that type. All the particulars are in the possession of the Air Force. The experiments have been made. But to-day, five years after the War, we find that experiments of the Air Force are bring carried out with the old type of balloon. I do not think that is wise. We came to the conclusion, as a result of our experience in the War, that it was far better to use a light type of balloon. I ask the Minister to give an assurance that those experiments will be continued. I am not talking about a matter of which I know nothing. I drafted the standard book that deals with co-operation between artillery and aircraft. When it is remembered that a single observer in a balloon during the War was able to do work of enormous value—for instance, on one occasion, an attack by five divisions of the German Army was defeated by the observations of one man made on a day when the aeroplanes could not fly—I think the House will realise that opportunities for observation of such a kind are of great importance. It is in this Department that I think economy is penny-wise and pound-foolish. Artillery officers will, no doubt, agree with me. At any rate, it is a matter that should be investigated. Generally, as regards the Air Force, I would mention that I have had the privilege of meeting a lot of my old comrades in that Force, and that I think it is a branch of the Service in which there is very little complaint, and in which the country has a particularly keen lot of men. Although the Air Force was cut down greatly at the end of the War, yet there was left behind the cream of the Force and a structure on which, in a very few months, we could build something of enormous importance if, unfortunately, occasion for doing so should arise.

I am sure I may be permitted to felicitate the hon. and gallant Member upon a most admirable maiden speech, reinforced by rare technical knowledge. I hesitate to criticise his arguments, because his experience of that branch of warfare extended over a considerably longer period than my own. But I would venture to submit this consideration, in respect of one part of his argument—that since the War the probability and potentialities of aerial warfare have increased to an appalling extent. The hon. and gallant Member sought to minimise the widespread belief that the devastation of cities and of the non-combatant population might take place upon a wide scale in the event of war. In that part of his argument I think he ignored the enormous advance since the war in researches into the possibilities of gas bombs and shells, and the development of aerial capacity to carry great weights of explosives. He pointed out that during the War, so far from the population being intimidated by aerial attack, such attack actually stung and inspired our people to greater effort. That was so, perhaps, to a certain extent, in the last War, but we have to face this consideration. Could any civilian population face constant aerial bombardment on a great scale? Really the new developments in the air have translated into practice, almost for the first time on a large scale, the appalling doctrine of Treitschke and Bernhardi, and other philosophers of war, who deliberately declared that the shortest way, and, as they put it, the kindest way, to end war, was to intimidate the civilian population with which you were dealing. This aerial development has brought the doctrine of frightfulness into the military text-books. It is based on a very simple proposition, that women and children are more easily frightened than soldiers, and there is no doubt of it, that if war breaks out in the future, its horrors cannot be confined, and it is most futile to think the horrors of war can be confined, and we may witness, on a large scale, attempts to strike terror into the civilian population by organised raids. Who will doubt that these new potentialities of the air will not give weapons to any military caste who may be in power in any country which is the aggressor in war?

These considerations, so far from weakening the position which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Air adopted in his first and second speeches, substantially enforces his position. To me, it is astonishing the nature of the attacks which have been levelled against them. I think, especially in the Press, a quite exceptional amount of nonsense has been talked about the speeches which he has delivered. What is the charge against him? The charge is, that while announcing a substantial expansion of our Air Force, he dared to initiate a pacifist doctrine. I can imagine no moment more suitable for bringing home to mankind the eternal and profound truth that no nation has ever been saved by armaments alone. The sole charge against him is that he ventured to reflect upon those wider and essential considerations, and while taking due cognisance of the state of the world, he was compelled to bring in an expansion of our Air Force. That is not an unreasonable and unthinking pacifism. It is a reasoned pacifism. It is a pacifism which recognises facts as they are, but, at the same time, labours for a better and more endurable order of society. The hon. Gentleman courageously faced the fact that if you are to have an Army, Navy and Air Force at all, they must be efficient. A weak Air Force provokes attack. It gives excuse for attack, but it does not give the means of resisting attack.

The only alternative to an effective Air Force is to adopt, though I have not the courage to do so, what, I think, is a most courageous standpoint, and that is the standpoint of my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), who is prepared to do without protection of any kind, and to take the lead of the world in these matters. I do not deride that standpoint based upon the fundamentals of Christian doctrine. It is a very brave doctrine, which, I must confess, I have not the courage to hold, nor has the majority of the people of this country. But that is not the doctrine brought forward by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. He merely pointed out that air armaments, with the methods of defence in themselves, can never protect a country, and that, while taking these precautions, we must labour for a permanent measure of disarmament in the world, and I utterly fail to see that in doing so he in any way betrays or enfeebles the position which he holds. He was attacked by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and, I think, by the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary of State for Air on account of his dictum that aeroplanes are not an effective protection against other aeroplanes. And that has been dismissed as the sentimental drivel of an unreasoning pacifist! I venture to think that it merely states one of the fundamental truths of aerial warfare. Hon. Members who support the doctrine that aeroplanes cannot give protection against the attack of other aeroplanes should get some friend to take them up at night in an aeroplane to look for another aeroplane, and if they want to make the experience thoroughly realistic of warfare, they should arrange for their friends to bombard them. That is the almost invariable experience of men who have undertaken that work under actual conditions of warfare.

When have aeroplanes ever prevented an attack upon a great city? I put this question to the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary of State for Air, if he speaks in this Debate: If he were given an air service on an absolute equality with the greatest air service in Europe, could he give an absolute guarantee that London would never be bombarded? Of course, neither he nor any other responsible person could give that guarantee, and, in that event, it really is, I will not say hypocritical, but it is a serious departure from the recognised facts of the situation to talk about any standard giving adequate protection. He talked about a formula of adequacy. That sounded very well, but, unless you can guarantee that an air force as great as that of any other Power will prevent us from ever being bombarded, then a formula of adequacy is an absolute meaningless phrase. Of course, the fact of the matter is that there is no defence in the air—it has been proved over and over again—excepit the appalling method of reprisals and retaliation. What hon. Members who talk about defence, and what those experts who talk about defence mean, is not that aeroplanes could go up and stop other aeroplanes attacking London, but they mean that the people of an aggressive city who send an air force against us will be certain the next night that our Air Force will go up and bombard them. To me, it is scant consolation to know, if I am blown up one night in bed in London, that somebody somewhere else will be equally blown up in bed the next night. It is far better to recognise what the facts are. They talk about our machines bombarding enemy aerodromes, but surely it is recognised that in the next war the hangars of enemy aeroplanes will be situated far underground. The only people available to the attack of enemy aeroplanes will be the luckless civil population who, under this appalling doctrine, it will be the duty of the air forces to intimidate.

That is the doctrine with which we are confronted, and if we are ever to have peace in the world, it is far better to realise the full measure of the horrors which confront us. The doctrine of love of humanity may not convert mankind. It has not done so yet, but the fear of what is to come, unless you can introduce some measure of sanity in the world, is likely to convert the people to peace, if once they realise the truth of the situation. That is why I would not minimise for one moment the horrors and the appalling possibilities of aerial warfare. I would do everything to bring home to the peoples of the various countries concerned what may happen unless, by a really great international policy, you can persuade the peoples of the world mutually to disarm and adopt the ways of peace. That is why I say I entirely agree with my hon. Friends who sits on the Front Bench. While envisaging the prospect which confronts us, at the same time he pointed out the real truth that the expansion of the Air Force will not prevent London from being bombarded, and that it is essential to develop a wider, a bigger and a grander policy.

I believe the present Government have made a good start in the direction of that policy, and certainly there is a peculiarly favourable condition to bring it into effect. They are sometimes addressed with taunts of being international, and favouring international affiliation. I believe that to be the principal reason for which the country should give them their confidence. In the present position of the world, with science every day adding, not blessings but fresh horrors for humanity, what hope have we except the suffering people of all lands and all countries stretching out the hand of friendship and understanding to each other across the barriers and frontiers of armaments? In a world all menacing, the international movement is the hope of humanity, and the more tenaciously they cling to those doctrines, the more they advance the common interest of all people to frustrate and prevent the suspicion and fear of mutual misunderstanding, which will lead to a cataclysm on a scale unparalleled in the past, if allowed to fructify and develop—the more they can do to develop these international movements and understandings, the more reason this country will have to repose in them their confidence. Therefore, I hope that, while taking this step which is necessary, in view of the greatly inferior position in which the policy of hon. Members opposite allowed us to rest for many years before initiating this new scheme; while agreeing with this expansion, I hope they will persist in the widest policy, by which alone permanent peace can be brought to the world, and, so far from deploring, I venture to felicitate my hon. Friend, if I may with all respect, for his part in bringing home to the people of our country these great truths, upon which alone the future peace of the world depends.

I will not detain the Committee by inquiring into the abstract question of whether my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is right or wrong in propounding doctrines of a pacific nature, when supporting Air armaments increased by £2,000,000 and 2,000 men. We are quite satisfied, so long as he tells us he genuinely believes these increases are necessary, and that the air defence of this country on an adequate scale will have his support and the support of the Government. Nor do I propose to follow my hon. Friend in his somewhat involved argument, in which he first explained that an aeroplane is no answer to an aeroplane, and applauded these pacific doctrines, and wished he had the courage to disarm completely, although he admitted he had not. No one will accuse my hon. Friend of lack of courage in this or anything else, but, if I may respectfully say so, of all the speeches I have heard him make, that was the most muddle-headed. Of course, even the most pacific man, even my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, is convinced that, although one aeroplane is not an answer to another aeroplane in the sense that it cannot protect you with any certainty from attack, at least it is the only answer you have got, except the Sermon on the Mount.

Until we can get other people to agree to the doctrine of the Sermon on the Mount, it is hopeless for us to attempt to make others disarm by disarming ourselves. That was announced definitely by three different Ministers on the Government Bench, and we can rest on the assurance that they will not let our defences down. Should they ever attempt to do so, they would have to face opposition, not only from benches opposite, but from these benches. The particular point I wish to refer to to-day is one of very real importance which has not been referred to in either of the previous Debates: that is, the question as to how far the use of air power in uncivilised or semi-civilised countries is effective, or is cruel, or is right or wrong. There has been a great deal of loose talk on the subject, and it has often been said that certain outrages on the Indian frontier have been directly due to the use of air power. It has been openly stated that the kidnapping of women and the murdering of officers, and, in some cases, of officers' wives, have been directly due to the use of air power. That is certainly not true; it is the reverse of true. I have been at pains to ascertain from responsible officers on the spot, who really must know—people of the highest importance on the frontier—and I find it is the fact that in no case have these murders or kidnapping followed on the use of air power. It is said that the use of air power against turbulent tribes, quite apart from the use of air power against other Continental nations who have air forces themselves, results in indiscriminate slaughter. Again, the exact reverse is the truth. It is quite true that if your Air Force is directed by, let us say, military officers who do not understand the use of air power and who often dislike it, that you may have indiscriminate slaughter and inefficient work; but if air power is directed by air officers with full knowledge of how it should be used in conjunction with political officers who have to try to ensure the safety of the country and of the frontiers, far from being more indiscriminate, it is more discriminate. It is far more discriminate than the use of undirected artillery fire. If anyone likes to envisage the position, he will see that it must be so.

It is quite true that in the case of aerial warfare between civilised powers, each with an air force, that the use of air power must be indiscriminate in a great degree, and frightful in the highest degree destructive, in a sense which I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Black-pool (Lieut.-Colonel Meyler), who made an admirable maiden speech this afternoon, has not quite realised, for I do not suppose he has realised the advance made in the last five years not only in bombs, but in the fuses attached to the bombs. Though my hon. and gallant Friend points out the terrible nature of the menace to which the civilised world is exposed, when it comes to a civilised power dealing with an uncivilised power, air power is far and away the most humane, the most direct and the least liable to cause cruelty to non-combatants. On the Indian frontier, from what I have learned from many officers who have been there, and from many political officers of distinction, it is possible to pick out a target—that is the military phrase for the man you want to kill—with far greater precision from the air than by artillery fire, even though that artillery fire is directed by aeroplanes from the air. Moreover, the bombing of your enemies is only a small portion of what you can do from the air. Towards the close of the late War it was found that machine-gun fire from the air was a most potent weapon. I have been exposed to it myself, and I can assure the Committee that it is the most disconcerting form of attack to which anyone could be subjected. In the case of savage tribes, machine-gun fire terrifies them more than anything else. I wish, therefore, to protest against the statements which have been made that the use of air power in Iraq and Palestine and on the Indian frontier and in Somaliland has been indiscriminate and cruel. Far from that being the case. I have it on authority, which I am prepared to produce, that the use of air-power is merciful and direct, and, though this is of less account, of infiinitely less expense to this country, and I beg the Under-Secretary and the Secretary of State to do everything they can to maintain our Air Force in those regions to the utmost, and to impress on the Cabinet that, if they wish, with the least expenditure and with the least cruelty, and to excite the least hostility among our more turbulent neighbours in this country, and to enforce our will and the peace of the world, we had better do it by air-power.

There are two main problems which the air has brought in. One is that mentioned by the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley), namely, that, with two contiguous countries, it is almost impossible to safeguard one from the other by aeroplanes only. We can make it dangerous to another country to attack us. It may be that, when contiguous civilised countries realise this, they will come to some form of agreement, but there is also the other problem of countries which are not contiguous, that is to say, countries which are wide apart. If one considers the Japanese Empire, I do not think that any consideration of aeroplane attack would alter the world policy of a Power of that kind. Therefore, I think we have to consider our defences on two planes; one the Continental plane, if I may put it in that way, and the other the Imperial plane, which is the plane that this country hitherto has always adopted. When one is considering the Imperial plane, one will realise that air power may be of great advantage to this country. That is why I very much regret that in the present Air Estimates there is not that adequate provision for assistance to commercial and civil aviation which I should like to have seen. Especially I say that; n regard to airships. I should like to say at the commencement of these remarks that I feel some diffidence in speaking on this Subject, because for the last two year I have been advocating outside this House the development of airships, and I am intimately associated with the Imperial Airship Service which was approved by the last Government. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will realise that I am trying to put this in an entirely unprejudiced manner and on basic principles. Also, I would like to assure the Committee and the Under-Secretary of State that I am not criticising the Government in their policy of making further investigation, because I quite realise that they want to see exactly what they are doing. What I would like to do, if the Committee will allow me, is to consider the question of commercial aviation on the very broad basis, first of all, on its economic and political aspects and then in regard to its military and financial aspects.

I take the economic aspect first. What is the position of this country? The position economically is that we have one million persons unemployed. What is the reason for that unemployment? Is it endemic or epidemic or sporadic? I suggest to the Committee that it is endemic, but I might also call it, if I may be permitted to coin a word, orientational unemployment. By that I mean that there are certain stages in the world's history when there is a re-orientation of trading power. There may be great changes brought about by political means, by military means, or by scientific means which may give to a certain area of the earth's surface a new value from that which it had heretofore held. We have seen these changes take place, for example, in Carthage, which at one time had a population of one million. Climatic, political and military changes have made it an unimportant part of the earth's surface. We have seen changes brought about by scientific means in the West Indies and in Indies. In the West Indies, the development of the sugar-beet industry in Germany more or less killed the cane sugar trade. In India, the development of synthetic dyes in Germany more or less killed the Indian indigo trade. We can see how employment and prosperity can be created on a great scale by invention if one takes the example of Chicago. In 70 years it has grown from a village to the third largest town in the world because of the invention and development of the railway. What is the situation as regards this country to-day? I have already dealt with the number of unemployed. I believe that myself to be due to a re-orientation which is now actually taking place in this country. For instance, the wealth and prosperity of this country was built up on coal and iron, but the value that the world is giving to these materials is altering. Today oil is replacing coal. To-day cheap electrical power is supplying and controlling many of the industries which were formerly based on cheap coal-power. One-third of our mercantile marine is running on oil and not upon coal. I think that any statesman in this country has got to realise that we are to-day undergoing a real revolutionary change in the value which this geographical region of England has now to the world as a whole.

A further change is taking place. Owing to the increase of the economic power of the new countries, America and Japan, the defensive possibilities which our economic capacity contains are such that the difficulty is getting greater and greater to this country in competing on equal terms with the remainder of the world. If this country is going to remain a great country, we have to treat it as a State of Empire. We have to give up the idea that this small island can continue to maintain the world position which it has hitherto maintained. If we realise that it has to become a State of Empire instead of the pillar which maintains the whole Empire, we shall realise at once that we require more co-operation and closer touch with the remainder of our territory. In other words, we have to make our political orbit coincide with those territories from which the roots of our economic existence draw their sustenance. What is the situation in America? There is no unemployment there; they are prosperous. If we compare the organisation which we have in this Empire of ours with that of America, we should be able to draw some very striking conclusions so far as the British Empire is concerned. Compared with America we have four times her raw material, four times her territorial area, four times her population; we have a greater range of climatic conditions, but we have one great difficulty and one great disadvantage. The parts of this Empire are scattered all over the world, and the point I wish to make is that, if we could reproduce for this Empire the equivalent of the through trunk railways of America, we should have given to this Empire that possibility of economic and political development which America now possesses.

That, to my mind, is the great problem with which the statesmen of this country will have to deal within the next generation. The point is, can we do it. I suggest it can be done. I believe science can produce those vehicles which, in so far as mails and passengers are concerned, will form a service which will reproduce for this Empire the equivalent of the great through trunk railways of America. Those railways have made America. Without them there would have been warring States; Chicago keeping an army against New York and the Mississippi Valley keeping a fleet against the Eastern States. That whole territory was linked quickly and closely, and America has developed as a great economic and political entity. You may say, "That may be done by air in the British Empire as far as mails and passengers are concerned, but you will never transport goods in that way." That is a valid criticism, but I do not think it has very great weight for this reason. Science has given to this country another great advantage, and it is this, that it is possible to transport goods by sea at one-fortieth of the cost at which it is possible to transport them by land, and it is the cost of the carriage of goods which matters, and not the time taken to transport them. What does that mean when it is translated? It means there is no port in the British Empire which is more than 400 railway miles away from London on a cost basis, and it seems to me, if we can get over the difficulty of mails and passengers in order to connect our people and our information, the fact that our goods have to be transported over great distances will not militate against this small island being a State of a great Empire in which the various territories will be under the same political and economic control as that of which America now shows us an example.

That seems to be the position so far as the political and economic side is concerned. If I am in order, I should like to turn to the question of defence. As I have endeavoured to point out, there is, in my belief, in progress to-day a re-orientation of economic power, and in just the same way there is also a re-orientation in regard to defence and attacking power. I have already indicated the difference, as I see it, between the continental burden which is mainly a military and aeroplane burden, and the Imperial burden which is mainly naval. In this re-orientation of naval power, due to the destruction of the German Navy, a vital change has been introduced which I do not believe is appreciated in this country or by hon. Members in this House. It is that, owing to the distribution of land and water on the earth's surface, the area of water to be supervised in the Pacific is three times the area that we had formerly to supervise in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. The focal point of naval power has inevitably shifted to the Pacific. Whether different political parties criticise Singapore or not, the focus of naval power has shifted to the Pacific and owing to that fact, this country now has to patrol three times the amount of the surface of the water which it hitherto had to patrol. I think it is generally realised that a Power which wishes to become a predominant naval power, if it, by chance, is at war with another Power, must necessarily have that same control of the large spaces of the ocean as of the small spaces of the Ocean. Accordingly, if we are to maintain that same naval predominance from an Imperial point of view which we have hitherto held, we shall require a greater Navy than we ever had before, not because the other Navies are bigger, but because other Navies of the same size are operating over a much greater area and therefore the number of cruisers and auxiliary vessels which we require will necessarily and inevitably become much greater also.

Here again I say that just at the very moment we have had a re-orientation of naval power, we have science again coming to our aid and giving us a method of carrying out this naval surveyance at a cheaper rate than it would be possible to do it by cruisers or the ordinary surface navy. I believe if air ships are properly developed they will carry out all those functions of patrol, reconnaisance and so forth which are required for the control of great areas of ocean. I return for the moment to the Washington Conference. So long as Japan and America maintain that Treaty, our country is limited in the number of battleships it can build. Therefore the amount of naval power that can be sent to any vital point is necessarily limited also. But the number of auxiliary craft required as ancillary to those vessels is not limited, and unless we can provide some cheaper method of patrolling the ocean, the economic burden thrown upon this country, will, in my opinion, be too great for us to bear.

I have gone into some figures regarding this point, and I give them to the Committee for what they are worth. I have had an analysis made of what it would cost to patrol, or sweep, or search out 1,000 square miles of ocean by means of airships and what it would cost to patrol 1,000 square miles by means of light cruisers. I give the figures with reserve, but they are accurate to the best of my ability. The cost by airship would be 25s.; the cost by light cruiser would be £77 10s. Those are merely running costs, and if we turn to capital costs, I find we should require to have £55,000,000 spent on cruisers to give the patrol and reconnaisance power which is procurable with airships for £3,500,000, and I find, by so doing, the annual upkeep would be reduced by £11,000,000. I ask the Committee to consider what will be the cruiser position in 1929, which I think is generally admitted to be the critical year. By 1929 we shall have 50 cruisers of a modern type, and of these 25 are required to work with the Fleet, and cannot be detached for patrol or convoy duties. The remaining 25 are for patrol and convoy duties, but some eight or nine must necessarily be in the dockyards for repair, refitting and so forth, and one comes to the ridiculous position that we should have 16 modern cruisers in 1929 to patrol the oceans of the world. I think the Committee will admit that that is a ridiculous position for the predominant naval Power to be in.

These are reasons which I believe will, inevitably, urge the Government to develop airships. I may call the attention of the Committee to a newspaper paragraph—and this should appeal to the Under-Secretary for Air, because it appeared in the "Daily Herald"—in which Professor Scot Nearing refers to Canada, showing how American capital is getting control of Canada and how any economic control necessarily develops very quickly into political control, and unless we can do something to check, not only in Canada but Australia as well, any development towards American economic control—coming later to political control—I think we may be here to witness the start of the break-up of this Empire. Those are the reasons which have guided me in my endeavour to develop the airship, both from a political and from a defensive point of view.

Now I will turn for a moment to the technical position. Most people, when you are discussing airships, say: "What have they done? They usually break up. What can they do?" When one analyses the real situation, one finds a very striking difference between those vessels which have been constructed and used for war purposes and those which have been constructed and used for commercial purposes. I will state what has happened with commercial vessels. There have been none built in this country hitherto, and the Germans are the only people who have developed them, but since they started to use them in 1910 they have transported about 42,000 people without any accident at all. They have never had any fatality of any kind with a commercial airship. Since the War, the only experiment that has been made has been made with a small airship called the "Bodensee," which ran between Berlin and Fredrikshavn. It ran for 101 days out of 103, carried some 2,500 passengers, and it never had any accident of any kind. When one turns to those vessels built for war, one finds a tale of disaster from one end to the other—the "R. 38," the "Dixmude," the "Roma"—and the same reason, so far as I have been able to analyse the question, runs through the lot. The constructors have endeavoured to cut the safety factor to such a degree that inevitably an accident must at some time take place, and the reason why they have endeavoured to cut the safety factor has been because each air staff or war staff has built against that of the other country, they have each tried to outdo the other, and therefore they have tried to see how close they could go to the margin.

It might interest the Committee if I gave them the possibilities, as I believe them to be, of what new vessels could now do. I believe it would be possible to construct airships to go from here to India in something like 72 hours, carrying 140 people, and at costs less than those now in force for the Peninsular and Oriental Com- pany, that is, for fares. I believe that those airships could be made perfectly safe, and if that could be done, and if they could be put upon a true, self-supporting, and commercial basis, inevitably those results would follow which I have endeavoured to indicate in my opening remarks. I will end by asking the Under-Secretary of State to consider the question of development on the broad and general lines which I have indicated.

I am sure the Committee has listened with great interest to the highly expert remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member fox Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney), and I must say that I sympathise with him in the delays that have, perhaps unavoidably, occurred with a new Government in getting on with his scheme. Might I say a word on that point in my private capacity? When I can spare the time away from this House, I am by way of being an Indian merchant, and I mention that because it is tremendously important to us to quicken up the mails to India. A great many of these mails carry cheques, and so on, and every day that we can save in the mails to India is so much interest saved, and it makes a tremendous difference generally to our commerce also to get quotations, blue prints, plans, machinery and so on quickly conveyed. India, after Ireland, is our greatest customer and market outside Great Britain, and the importance of quickening up the mails to India cannot be exaggerated.

In any case, the scheme of my hon. and gallant Friend will take some time to develop, and in the meantime I want to know what the Air Ministry is doing to quicken up the air mails only, apart from passengers, by means of an aeroplane service over the whole or part of the route, either in conjunction with our French friends, who are, of course, interested, in a lesser but still important degree, in the East Indies, or independently, without them. Surely, even if the whole route cannot be flown with air mails at the present time, a large portion of it could be flown. The hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) raised at Question time the question of the air mail to Prague. The most direct route to India runs through Prague and Constantinople, a most profitable and practicable route. I also raised this matter, as he knows, and I hope it is being pursued with great vigour by the Air Ministry. Might I say that I, personally, in this question lean towards the Royal Air Force doing this service, as opposed to private companies, as I think there is a very strong case for this new service being a national service.

Might I ask the Air Minister two questions? First of all, with regard to the construction of new aeroplanes, I do not see why we should not be told what the types of aeroplanes are that are going to be built under the expansion scheme that my hon. Friend has had to bring in. We are told how many destroyers, submarines, cruisers, etc., the Navy has, and I do not see why we should not be told what proportion of the new aeroplanes are going to be bombers, night bombers, fighters, reconnaissance machines, and so on, and I think it is very important that we should be told, because otherwise this House has no check over the air strategy of the Government. We should have a check over that strategy, and we should know what it is proposed to do in case of War, either for the defence of our coasts and towns or for the discomfiture of our enemies. I agree with what the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) said, earlier in the Debate, that there is no defence in the air against aeroplanes by night, that all you can do is to hold up such a threat to a possible enemy that he will know that the policy of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will be pursued towards him. If it be possible for the Under-Secretary for Air to give us some figures as to the different types of machine and their proportions, I shall be very grateful.

Secondly, I would like to ask—and I know that this is a matter which is exercising the Royal Navy very much:—what it is proposed to do with regard to the defence of our dockyards. The defence of London by day in the air is a good deal easier than might be supposed, but the defence of our different dockyards by air, if our main defensive force is concentrated round London, may be much more difficult. I think there is a great danger, in case of a war with our nearest neighbour by air, of Portsmouth being rendered untenable by air attacks by night, and even by day. This applies in a lesser degree to Plymouth, and I am certain that Chatham will have to be evacuated for naval purposes in case of a war with France.

I would like to know what the hon. and gallant Member for Rochester (Lieutenant-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) has to say on that point. There seems to me to be two lines on which we can proceed, and I think they should be proceeded with simultaneously. One is to have a sufficient force of aeroplanes for day fighting purposes ready to defend Portsmouth and Plymouth. As I say, I do not believe that Chatham is defensible against an attack from France, and from a naval point of view Chatham will be useless. Secondly, I would like to know whether we are perfecting a scheme of kite balloon defences for night work, with wire aprons, as were used successfully, I believe, for the defence of London. I do not want to go into detail, as I believe there is a certain amount of confidential experiment being carried out, and I do not want to refer to that, but everyone knows that this defence was used, and was useful, and I want to know whether, in the case of Plymouth and Portsmouth, these defences are being improvised. They cannot be done at the last moment, and they will take time to organise. As long as we have an Air Force, war will be possible, and as long as it is possible, it might come very rapidly.

The other point to which I wish to draw attention is the extraordinary difference in the number of Air Force officers, who are regular flying officers, and the number of officers who are engaged in administrative services and who are not expected to fly at all. As compared with other forces, especially the French, I think these numbers are rather absurd. My hon. Friend told me, in answer to a question at the end of February, that the whole of the officers in the Air Force number 3,136, including 600 odd officers storekeeping, and so on. Out of that number, there are only 1,703 fully qualified pilots. I think those figures show that the number of personnel who do not fly is too large. The official defence is that it is necessary to have a permanent staff, and then you can increase your Air Force in times of emergency, but is it necessary to have such a number of storekeepers, chaplains, matrons, and so on? [An HON. MEMBER: "Matrons?"] Yes, hospital matrons, but probably they are not included in the figures I have given. I think the boot is on the other foot, and that you can increase that staff much more easily than you can increase the fighting portion of the Air Service. You can get an accountant and make him into a storekeeping officer much more quickly than you can take a similar accountant and make him into a qualified air pilot under modern conditions. I think that is true, and I think it is a fallacy to say we have to have this large permanent ground staff all the time, so that we can expand the flying, fighting portion of the service in case of emergency. It ought to be the other way about.

These are quite friendly suggestions that I put to my hon. Friend, but now I wish to ventilate a strong grievance that I have against him. He has, of course, been only some seven or eight weeks in office, and I do not expect him to do wonders. I did not expect the Labour Government to make a new heaven and a new earth, neither did I expect them to keep on with the curse of the old, but I did expect from them certain policies in a democratic direction, and one of those policies was the democratisation of the system of entry of officers. In the Air Service to-day we are training cadets, and, as far as I can gather from reading the regulations for the Air Force College at Cranwell, it is almost impossible for a poor boy, however clever, however suitable, or however obviously useful for the Air Service, to enter the Air Service unless his father was an officer who fell in action. I think it is quite right that there should be these honorary King's cadetships for the sons of officers of the Services who fell in the War, but there may be very suitable boys whose fathers were not killed in the War, and, as far as I can make out, if they are poor, they cannot enter the Air Service. The only way in which they can enter the Air Service is, according to the regulations laid down, if they are the sons of "private gentlemen"—that is the term used—who are able to pay a fee of £75 a year.

I think that method of dealing with the matter is quite wrong. There ought to be no fees for the Air Service. You can get a certain number of free places, but so long as the greater number must be sons of parents who can afford to pay £75 per annum, and also provide the uniform, the outfit, and so on, you must inevitably bar out a considerable number of good boys who otherwise are acceptable. Furthermore, the examination is only really to be taken with any hope of success by boys who have been at what are called, generally speaking, the public schools. Languages and the other subjects that have to be taken will bar out boys from the secondary schools—or that is my reading of the conditions. The hon. Gentleman should know that the two parties holding the power in this House—I think I can speak for them both—they would be most sympathetic. [An HON. MEMBER: "Question!"] I have made inquiries amongst various Members and of the Whips, and I think I can assure hon. Members and the Under-Secretary that the utmost support would be given to reform in this matter. I believe that there is a clear majority in this House of Members who would support my hon. Friend if he made a clean sweep of these fees for the cadets for the Air Force. The days when officers of the Services should only be drawn from one class have passed away for ever in this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Army?"] We are dealing now with the Air Force. I may have something to say on the Army, and the Navy when we come to the Estimates of those Services, and I think the same policy will be advocated. It is not fair that this money test should keep out boys who are otherwise suitable. My hon. Friend has a great opportunity at this time. I should like to hear from him whether it is the policy of the Air Board to make this necessary reform in the methods of entry of the young men who are to be the officers of the Air Force to-day, and to-morrow?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) has, as usual, made an attack upon the existence of Chatham. I quite appreciate the geographical difficulties of the place, but I feel constrained to tell him that they are no worse geographically than the position of London. Although I admit the great importance of Chatham, yet a certain importance also attaches to London. What applies to the one applies to the other. When you evacuate London we shall be prepared to evacuate Chatham. I should like to make one or two remarks about the speech of the hon. and chamæleon-like Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley). The hon. Gentleman has been a Conservative, and he has been a Liberal—

And now he is a member of the party opposite, or at all events he makes his speeches from the Labour Benches, and he has adapted himself very well to the general standard of speech made from those benches. He has adapted himself to the speech made by the Minister for Air and the standard of pacifism of that speech. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] We all agree. Every one of us could make such a speech, though perhaps not with such eloquence as he made it. But it wastes a good deal of the time of the House when everybody makes the same speech approving of the same ideals that we all have at heart. But this question is not so much one for us as for other people. There is no one, I think, but admires the tone of the letter addressed to Mons. Poincaré by the Prime Minister on the question of armaments, but it was the letter back that counted more. These matters are not decided by the letter which was sent, but by the letter we got back. Although I am very strongly in favour of the teachings of the New Testament as to the relations between one country and another I do think as a matter of practical politics what you want to do is to combine the new a little with the old. Let me frankly say to some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite that if they had adopted purely the New Testament attitude at the Elections very few of them would have got in.

There are one or two technical points which the hon. Gentleman dealt with in regard to aeroplane fighting. He rather took the view that one aeroplane was quite incapable of dealing with another. The records of the War clearly show that of the numerous enemy machines brought down, the greater number in fact were brought down by individual fighting in the air. When the statement is made to the public that nothing can be done with one's own aeroplanes except to bomb enemy territory, then it is desirable to say that that does not fairly represent the case, because actually the principal endeavour of an Air Force is to destroy the enemy Air Force. Consequently the first bombing raid of one country at war would be against the aerodromes of the enemy country. It would not be so much against the people of the country that the start would be made, but against the the air-power of the opponents.

I was appointed by the late Secretary for Air to be chairman of a Committee comprising representatives both of the Air Ministry and of the Post Office to see whether the two Services could be coordinated. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman the present Under-Secretary read the Report on this matter, which involves the question of air mails. For the first time we had to deal with the air and airships as something which exist in our civilisation to-day, and which have got to be looked upon as something which we can use or not use according to the views we hold as to their possibilities in terms of pounds, shillings and pence. Many have looked upon the Post Office as a Department which might be used for the encouragement of aviation, but really which we should have to pay for doing certain of the work. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull referred, I think, in his speech to what was being done by the Post Office towards an air mail service to the East. It is a very interesting problem. We undoubtedly are very badly situated from the point of view of an aerial postal service. This arises partly from the fact that it is absolutely impossible to carry on by night. Take the case of the ordinary letter which leaves London, say, about 6 o'clock. There is little saved by using aeroplanes. The only gain is if you can send your letter fairly early in the day. But there is a great future by combining and linking up the steamship service and the ordinary train service with an air service. You could take the ordinary mails across the Continent early in the morning by steamer, fly them during the whole of the day, then when darkness came on carry them forward by train and then by steamship.

Why is it not possible to fly by night? So far as I know in the Middle East they make flights at night.

The difficulties of the day are known, but at night the risks are too great to ensure the service which the Post Office would require. The Under-Secretary said in his speech that he looked upon civil aviation as a method of binding together the countries of the world. That is an attitude with which I have always agreed, but if the aeroplane is going to bind together Europe towards a true internationalism I would advance very earnestly the view that the airship will do the same thing for the Empire. Perhaps when he comes to look into it the Under-Secretary will see that the actual scheme of the late Government was the beet in the world. Doubtless it has been examined with very great care. I do plead with the hon. Gentleman that he will not dismiss the airship altogether. It has great possibilities, more to this country, and the Empire, than to any other. I would rather ask him to be very careful that he is not persuaded into using our existing ship to try out the future rigid airship. By using the almost out-of-date ships we posses there may be given the impression that they are a failure, but I am one of those who think that the whole future of the rigid airship is one that this country should try out more than any other.

To turn from that I would draw attention to one of the observations made by the Under-Secretary in his speech some days ago as to the future of the meteorological section of the Air Ministry. Everybody knows that since the Air Ministry has taken over it has been better done than ever, but in these days when we boast of our knowledge of science it seems a curious thing that, though we can foretell with some accuracy an eclipse of a hundred years hence, we are unable to tell whether we shall go out to-morrow afternoon with our umbrella or not because of the weather. I think that amongst the subjects of research this one should be included. I am convinced, if we could give this subject real attention, by eminent scientific men, and we could hope in the future, as the result of their labours, accurately to foretell the weather, that then the hon. Gentleman would be conferring on the peoples of the world one of the most enormous benefits one could possibly think of.

6.0 P.M.

Let me now turn for a moment to the Estimates. When one hears of the starvation of orders from the industry, how the designing class are disappearing, and how difficult it is to keep firms going which are really the basis of the industry, I think it is a great pity that the firms of this country are being deprived of the money which this House voted last year. How was it that they did not get their orders? Was it through some delay on the technical side or on the contract side? I seem to see the whole position drifting rather along the state we fell into during the War in which the dead hand of Government control was retarding the industry, and if it had not been for the Royal Navy we should have been in a very bad way. It is a remarkable thing that our fastest machine was built without any technical assistance or advice at all from the Air Ministry by a private firm.

I want to say a word or two with regard to research work; I have always thought that the Air Ministry looked upon this branch too much from the point of view of a military machine, and they seem to think that there is no side they are concerned with except the military side. I would like to point out, however, that they are in charge of the aeronautics of this country, and yet there is no Member responsible for research on the Air Staff. The late Air Minister made a good debating point against my hon. Friend when he asked how many machines we should actually require to make ourselves feel safe against the thousand possessed by the nearest enemy power. I know that was an extremely difficult question to answer, but what is of tremendous importance in air fighting is not so much the number of machines as the necessity that your machines should be better than those you are fighting against.

There is no form of warfare where technical superiority is more essential than in the case of aircraft. When the Prime Minister said that it was the policy of the Government to go on quietly he also said a wise thing, and that was that there was not going to be any "rust" in armaments. Here is a case in which you are to go slowly and there is to be no rust. I suggest that you should concentrate all the money that you can upon research, and upon the technical side, so that you may be satisfied that, should the time come when you have to fight, you will have accumulated all this scientific knowledge over and above any other country. I appeal to the Government to look upon this question of research as one of very great importance indeed, because I know the mind of the ordinary Air Force officer, and he does not like the technical side at all. I was a technical officer myself during the War and we were always rather despised on that account. In the organisation of the Air Ministry you have nobody on the Air Council who really understands the question of research. There are such questions as inherent stability which does not come within the purview of anybody on the Air Council. The technical side is quite different from the research side, and I maintain that it is absolutely essential that you should look upon research and the scientific side as being of greater importance and you ought to see that it is represented on the Air Council.

There are two sides to this question, but the side that does not appeal to me is that where this great and beautiful science is sought to be made efficient as a death-dealing instrument. Since the discussion which took place on aviation on the last occasion we find people arguing that, since we must have war, we are quite content to admit that war from the air is no longer going to deal with the armed forces it used to meet. According to the experts, what is going to happen is that to-night the women and children away from the battle front are going to be killed by being blown to pieces or gassed, and to-morrow night we are to reply in this same stupid, insane way by murdering the innocent women and children of the enemy. To discuss the application of science in relation to a question like that seems to me to denote the highest point that insanity can reach.

Therefore from the point of view of the application of aeronautics to death-dealing I have nothing but condemnation. The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) dealt with, the other side of the question. He was not thinking of the destruction of human life by dropping bombs on innocent women and children, but he was mapping out the great British Empire, and giving us a picture of what would happen when this science was properly developed, and when more money was spent in research for civil purposes for the benefit not only of this Empire but of the whole world. He told us that by spending this money on civil aviation we should give something to the world of real value instead of pursuing those death-dealing theories that are always present in the mind of this House as far as armaments are concerned. As far as I am concerned, if it came to a question of voting money for research for civil purposes only I would always vote for it, and I would never stick at the amount, because I do not believe that you can spend too much money in research work in connection with any science. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down said that he was on the technical side whilst in the Air Service, and he told us that he was rather despised on that account by the other branch of the Service. The same thing happens in this House. The moment you want to deal with anything of a technical character the majority of Members become weary because it is too great an effort for them to think. I would never hesitate about supporting any sum of money for scientific research in any branch of science, because by this means you are preparing for the future.

In the picture which the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge drew he gave some startling figures, pointing out that to go to India you could go in about 72 hours and carry 140 passengers, and probably have to pay less than you are now charged when you are conveyed on ships. I think that is a very wonderful thing. Then the same hon. and gallant Gentleman pointed, out that even if you want to scan 10 miles of the sea it could be done at a less cost by aeroplane than by a ship. The hon. and gallant Member not only dealt with the actual working cost but he also dealt with the capital cost, and he gave some very remarkable figures, and this is something which the House ought to be seriously interested in, because if we are going to remain a great nation we can only do it by giving the most minute attention to every scientific detail that concerns our life.

Another remarkable statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge was his comparison of the machines which are being used and the success which they have attained, as compared with the disaster that has befallen the airship industry, and he gave the figures relating to German airships. This is something which we have not developed at all. May I point out that the whole of the pacifist Members on these benches would support such a proposal if it is for civil purposes. Why should I not be able to travel back to Scotland in an aeroplane? Let us take for a moment the question of safety. We have heard some experts speak, and they say there is no safety. If, as has been said in the Committee to-day, we could tell what weather we were going to have 10 hours afterwards, we might be able to do certain things in the air, but there, again, everything comes back to the fact that we have neglected nearly every branch of science by which we might have developed aeronautics.

One thing from the military side to which I want to draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman in charge is the undemocratic method of entrance into this Service. I want to appeal to him, as representing a democratic Government, to see to it that there shall be no privileges of any kind attaching to entry into any part of that Service. If, for instance, we are going to have the underground hangar in the next war, one can see exactly, from a statement like that, what is meant by war in the future so far as the Air Force is concerned. It is not going to be the cost of the airship, but the cost of the underground hangar, because an airship cannot be housed underground unless a suitable entrance is made for it. That cannot be done on anything like a space of double its width, and it cannot be done unless there is a very slow grading down to the necessary depth representing the height of the airship. In this business you are going to spend millions on the top of millions so far as the supply of airships is concerned. Would it not be better that, instead of facing this as something inevitable, an appeal should be made now? Seeing that this science, if applied to warfare, is not going to deal with those concerned, but is more likely to deal with innocent women and children, could we not, on ordinary humanitarian grounds, get an agreement, between those nations claiming to be civilised, that that kind of warfare should be wiped out?

Since the Sermon on the Mount is scoffed at in this House—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—I heard it last week more than I care to admit, and, being a Scot, and having had the usual Scottish religious training, I sat through it and listened without making protest; but I should be very glad if hon. Gentlemen who are protesting now will show to me during the rest of this Debate that they do believe in it. If they believe in it, they are in agreement with me that this science should not be applied to dealing death to innocent people. If hon. Members agree with the Sermon on the Mount, they agree with my plea that an appeal should be made now to all the nations claiming to be civilised to get rid of that abominable method. If the Air Force is going to be a force based upon science, you are not going to get the scientific results that you should have from your present methods of experiment. I am now living near to where certain experiments are taking place, and I am not blind. Until the Service is brought back on to the civil basis of research, you are not going to be able to make the progress you would like to make. You are going to get more from the results of scientific research on the civil side than you can ever possibly get on the war side. The war-biased man—the war-biased mechanic in the shop or in the Air Service—is biased with one thing only in his mind; but when you get the civil scientific mind, the mind that is working for the good and not for the death of people, then you will get a revelation of all that is wanted in the science of aeronautics.

I would ask the Committee to allow me to intervene in this Debate for only a very short time—not, of course, for the reason which was suggested by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely), that my limited service under entirely safe conditions with the Staff in France gives me any authority on the subject, but because, in addition to having a very deep interest in the Air Force and the problems connected with the development of that Force, I intervened in the Debate on the Navy Estimates earlier in the week, and then thought it my duty to state strongly the view, which I and many of my friends hold, that a particular item of expendi- ture in the Navy Vote was not, in the circumstances, justified. That, I think, makes it particularly my duty to take the opportunity briefly to say that, applying, as I try to do, exactly the same tests to the question that is involved in the increase now proposed in the Vote for the Air Force, it appears to me—and I think I may say it appears to the whole of my hon. Friends—that the Government have no alternative at all but to submit this increased Estimate to the House.

I apply the test which, as I reminded the House, is the test we are bound to apply by the express terms of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which this country has most solemnly accepted—the test, namely, that we must confine our preparations, whether by land or by sea, by reference to the minimum limit of national security. It appears to me that any sensible man who impartially considers the situation as it exists at this moment is bound, however regretfully, to admit that the Government, in proposing these increased Estimates for the Air Service, are strictly complying, so far as human judgment is able, with that essential condition. You cannot, of course, spend unlimited sums on eliminating distant, and possibly, imaginary perils; but, on the other hand, in this world, neither can you run obvious and palpable risks in a matter in which it is possible to secure, in some degree, reasonable terms of insurance. I hope the Committee will feel, as I feel myself, that it is right that I should express, for myself and my friends, that strong conviction in the present connection.

At the same time, do not let any of us suppose that that conclusion really settles anything more than that it is right to vote these Estimates to-day. It is not really a final insurance; it may very well be that it is only a step in doubling the stakes in a very terrible contest; and I should certainly gravely regret it if I thought—as I do not think—that proposing these Estimates to-day is all that the Government hopes to be able to do in reference to this terrible competition in the air. Let us, however, speak quite plainly. No Government, whatever its politics, could possibly avoid bearing in mind the aerial armaments of France. I do not, myself, see what is the good of polite anonymous phrases. I accept, and I should think the Whole House accepts with complete confidence, the assurance of M. Poincaré, in the letter which he recently exchanged with the Prime Minister, when he said—I quote his words—with regard to the French preparations:

We found ourselves at the end of the War in possession of an incomparable arm. I believe the history of the development of the power and skill, and the variety of use, of the Royal Air Force, in the course of the War, will always remain one of the most astonishing examples of how great devotion, great skill, enormous courage, and fine practical organising ability were able, under the terrible stress of war, to produce so marvellous a transformation. We cannot be too grateful for the intelligence and the courage which devoted itself to that end. What did this country do, finding itself in possession of a Force of incomparable training, skill, and courage—a Force, too, which, as compared with other forms of defence, is comparatively cheap, because, after all, though these Estimates are large, they are as nothing compared with the Estimates brought forward, and necessarily so, on behalf of the older Forces? We have quite deliberately cut the whole thing down to the bone. We have reduced our magnificent Air Force to an absolute minimum, and it is perfectly clear that there never has been a case in history where a great country like ours was less exposed to the reproach that it has promoted a new race than we can be in respect of the Estimates which are now presented. It is perfectly obvious that the reduction of armaments, if ever it is going to be arrived at, whether it be by the method which the Prime Minister explained the other night when he justified his decision about Singapore—whether it is going to be arrived at by this or that form of gesture, it is perfectly clear that the reduction of armaments, to be effective, must, in the long run, be general. Let us, however, at the same time appreciate that the fact that, to a large extent, these things, if they are to be reduced, have to be reduced internationally, is no reason at all for saying that, therefore, if we cannot secure a reduction internationally, an international and large increase produces the same situation. It does nothing of the kind. It is no real substitute for a general reduction to have a large increase of armaments throughout the world.

The particular point to which I should like briefly to call the attention of the Committee is one which, perhaps, is present to the minds of many hon. Members who have really studied the subject, but, none the less, it is a point which it is very easy for the general public to overlook. There is a peculiar and special consequence which is following, which has already begun to follow, unrestricted, unregulated air competition—I mean competition in the fighting service of the air—which is of particular danger to the whole future of regulated and restricted warfare. I am not speaking about the horror of the latest possible developments of bombing. There are many hon. Members who can speak with far greater technical knowledge about that than most, including my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sheffield, because he has been at the very heart of considerations of this sort. I am not speaking of the horror which will come if we find ourselves moving into a world where one day we may have rained down upon us from the skies high explosives and asphyxiating gases indiscriminately. I am talking of this. Unrestricted development of competition, especially in the production of aeroplanes for bombing purposes, means the definite abandonment of restrictions upon warfare which it has been the effort of centuries of humanity to establish and to respect. The fundamental thing is that as the result of tremendous effort we really had reached a point where in warfare on land a distinction was drawn between the combatant and the non-combatant. It was not so in the Middle Ages. Grotius, the Father of International Law, urged—no one paid the least attention to it—that really in warfare there ought to be a rule that you were not at liberty coolly to destroy the life of civilians, but that warfare ought to be so regulated that it Was soldiers and those who took part actively with soldiers who were exposed to the full terrors of armed conflict.

The Duke of Wellington was no pacifist. At the end of his life he put it on record in express terms that the bombardment of open towns was disclaimed by the civilised portion of mankind. It was not a mere fad or fancy professed by a few international lawyers. It is true to say that before this new and most horrible form of destruction began to develop in the world it was recognised, not merely by namby-pamby theorists, but by great military authorities, that as a practical matter there were limits which civilised generals and armies would do their utmost to respect as between injury done to combatants and to non-combatants. I have here a book issued by the British War Office known as the Manual of Military Law. It is the edition which was issued in 1914, the year in which the War broke out, and it is well known to those who have followed this subject with any care that the part of the book which deals with the laws and usages of war was drawn up and printed, and is supplied to units in the Army, as the result of deliberate discussion and the most careful drafting inside the War Office itself. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely), who at one time was Secretary of State for War, will bear me out that this Manual of Military Law is not some professorial exercise. It is a practical book which is put into the hands of people who want to know from the practical point of view what they may and what they may not do. On page 252, under the head of Bombardments, Assault and Sieges, I find these words:

Will the Committee observe these words in the Manual of Military Law—"the bombardment of undefended towns, villages and buildings by any means whatever was prohibited." What is the history of those words "by any means whatever"? It is worth while seeing what it was. They are due to the fact that the representatives of the civilised Powers of the world in the year 1907 revised the language of the Hague Convention dealing with the laws and customs of war on land which had originally been drawn up in 1899. Article 25 said: I will ask the Committee to observe in what circumstances the representatives of the assembled Powers of the world deliberately put in the words, "by any means whatever." It was perfectly deliberate. They were introduced in 1907 in order to cover the case of the bombardment of undefended towns by projectiles from balloons. In other words, it was the very beginning of that most terrible form of attack, the dropping from the skies of explosives and bombs from some vehicle which they had succeeded in maintaining in the air, and the assembled Powers of the world solemnly bound themselves and put on record that that was forbidden. That proposal was brought before the Hague Convention, it is rather curious now to' reflect, by the French. Let me read from Professor Higgins's book on the Hague Convention: fear, consternation and terror through the civil population, whatever else you can say about it, if humanity cannot find a way of stopping it, we are as a matter of fact going back to the Middle Ages. Things which a practical soldier would have told you 20 years ago, a general of experience commanding a disciplined army, he would take good care to prevent are things which future war may bring about.

That shows, I think, that we have reached a situation in which while we pass these Estimates—and certainly I think they ought to be passed—we must realise that they do not the least in the world provide any solution or relief for the danger which is overhanging us. Indiscriminate destruction is inevitable, if indeed the world in the future is to conduct its controversies by the use of bombing aeroplanes. I heard my right hon. Friend say that when you were dealing with a savage tribe or people who really could be mildly persuaded by the use of aeroplanes, it really was a very humane and sympathetic process. It may be so. At any rate I am prepared to believe, from such limited experience as I have had, that to people who are not accustomed to it, to hear a bomb drop a considerable way off is sufficiently alarming. But at the same time, if you are talking about the use of bombing aeroplanes as between two highly organised first class Powers, the idea that you can use those bombing aeroplanes merely to pick out some definite military objective, to destroy a fort or to blow up a body of armed men marching along a road is the height of nonsense. If any Power ever attempted to bomb a town like London it would either have to do it at night or else it would have to go very high. It is certain that in modern conditions anti-aircraft protection will make it much too dangerous for invading bombing machines to operate at a low altitude when they can be easily seen in the sky, and the higher you go or the darker the night, the more certain it is that you are raining down destruction indiscriminately whether you like it or not.

I know enough about the service to know that the gallant men who undertake this duty, our own fellow subjects, regretted bitterly that, from time to time, through no will of theirs, the bombs that they dropped must have destroyed innocent women and children, as well as men. It was a frightful thing to think of, and I hate to think that a gallant young pilot in our own service should really have in front of him as the possible future service of his life the developing of this indiscriminate bombing as the only way in which we can hope to promote the peace of the world. The only hope in this matter, really, is that there should be an attempt made, however difficult it may be, to get some form of international limitation. If we go on pretending to one another that' the bombing aeroplane is merely engaged in hitting combatants and is not doing any damage to non-combatants, 'we are talking nonsense.

It is true that the horrible philosophy of Treitschke and the rest of them, and the whole doctrine of frightfulness, which could be resisted as long as you were dealing with forces moving in two dimensions, because they are so much more easy to control, becomes, in fact, a very serious difficulty to surmount if once you engage in unrestricted frightfulness in the air. Our only hope, therefore, is some form of international limitation, and I should like to ask the Under-Secretary, or whoever replies, whether in connection with these Estimates he can hold out any hope on this subject? I know that the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir Samuel Hoare) devoted himself to a consideration of this subject, most carefully, and we all know that at the Washington Conference there was a Committee on this subject, but that Committee produced a very discouraging Report.

This is an immensely difficult subject. You cannot limit it, for example, by an agreement as to how much you will spend. I rather fancy that at this moment the enormous air power of France costs France less than the comparatively limited sum which we are spending in this country on our Air Service. You cannot, I fear, hope to have an international limitation, at any rate, in the first instance, which will cover the whole field. There is a great complication which must be familiar to everybody who has thought about it, that, in the case of the aeroplane, there has been up to the present, in certain directions, a development which may be said to be common to both commercial and military machines. I should like to know what is the view of the Air Ministry as to that development in the future. Do they think that there is a tendency to divergence of type as between the sort of machine that is really useful for commercial purposes and the sort of machine that is used for fighting purposes?

It is quite obvious that the scout machine, the reconnaissance machine, the two-seater machine in which the pilot, on the one hand, works the figure of eight over the enemy guns, while the observer is engaged in spotting for the purpose of artillery fire, are not machines of a commercial character at all. The difficulty that I apprehend is—I speak subject to correction, and especially subject to the correction of hon. Members who are really experts on this question—that your bombing machine, which must he able to carry great weight, is also in some respects the sort of machine which in general construction, having regard to engine power, lifting power and the like, has some of the characteristics of a good commercial machine. The difficulty, therefore, is very great in seeing how you can get a limitation even of bombing machines which does not cut into the problem of development of the commercial machine. Therefore, I think it would be of great interest to the Committee to know what is the expert view of the Air Ministry as to how far a divergence of type is really being developed.

At first sight, one is tempted to say that the commercial machine does not need to fly very high, whereas, of course, it is everything in a bombing machine to have a sufficiently good ceiling. There again, to limit it in that way, I apprehend the answer will be that the height to which the machine can climb largely depends upon its load. You may very well have a commercial machine which will go over the Channel at ordinary commercial heights, having regard to its structure and its engine power, but which, none the less, if it was less heavily loaded might go to a very considerable height. What, therefore, I would like to know is the view of the Air Ministry as to the possibility of promoting some form of international limitation, at any rate as regards bombing machines. I am not speaking of the totally different class of machine, the Scout, the small machine which is in modern days the eyes of the Army, and to a certain extent the eyes of the Fleet. Those machines are associated with definite military operations, and I do not see that the problem is nearly so urgent in regard to them. The really urgent thing is this—what can this Government, on the advice of its experts, tell us on the subject of the bombing machine?

It is plain to see that, necessary as it is to pass these Estimates, there never were Estimates which were less open to the reproach that they are provocative. On the other hand, though we do not start the race in armaments, it is no solution, indeed it is not even the beginning of a solution, to join in the race in armaments. It is true that we are a very long way behind somebody else, but it still remains equally true that if it is the best we can do to spend money in order that we may, on our side, develop for unrestricted bombing purposes an arm of this sort, and we may or may not be behind in the race, there is no solution to be found merely because we take part in it. It is no solution to say: "This Government is really fulfilling the late Government's programme." They were quite right to bring forward these Estimates, but that is no solution. Perhaps I may respectfully say to the right hon. Member for Chelsea that I doubt very much whether it is any solution to say that the numbers in our Air Force must be of sufficient strength to give adequate protection against air attack by the strongest Air Force within striking distance. These things may be important when you consider how you are to calculate your premium for insurance, and what you can afford and what you cannot afford, but the real thing that the mind of the country has to address itself to is not whether these Estimates are justified or whether they are adequate, but what the Government can do in order to take part in stopping this unlimited race in unrestricted destruction.

We cannot confine the horrors of the next war in any way if that war is going to be conducted on the basis of unrestricted, unregulated, indiscriminate bombing destruction. While, therefore, for my part, I thought it only right, especially having regard to what I said a few days ago, to make it plain that I would defend these Estimates as being obviously justified and proper, I hope the Committee will excuse me for point- ing out that it is this new problem, this sinking back into what really was the practice of the Middle Ages, and the abandoning of the principles laid down in The Hague Convention and written in the manuals of military law of every country, which is the serious question which has to be considered when we have to discuss future fighting in the air.

I follow with great diffidence the very able and illuminating speech to which we have just listened. My object is to call attention to two suggestions. The first suggestion is with regard to the development of civil aviation. I endorse to the full all that has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney), as well as the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), in regard to the development, with all possible speed, of an airship service to India and our Dominions. In the meantime, I hope it will be possible to further in every way the development of a service of aeroplanes between this country and all possible parts of Europe. I put a question this afternoon with regard to the development of the London to Prague Air Service, which was promised eight months ago. I know that it is difficult for the Under-Secretary to give a definite reply and that it may be necessary for him to wait until the Imperial Transport Company is operating as a unit, and this Government and the Government of Czechoslovakia are working with that company in coming to a definite decision. I do urge the hon. Gentleman to put that scheme into operation, if he can, without any unnecessary delay. When I was last in Prague, five or six months ago, I heard from all sides, from members of the Government and from the people in the city, how much they were looking forward to a close connection between their capital and the capital of this country. The City of Prague, from the point of view of civil aviation, is a great key city in Central Europe, because radiating from it are any number of other great capitals, of which it must form a junction. From the point of view of the delivery of mails and many other things, including the delivery of fresh salt-water fish from the British Channel, the people of Prague will welcome this service as soon as it can be brought about.

Might I also suggest to the hon Gentleman that we take the same part in the forthcoming Aviation Exhibition at Prague that we did in the Aviation Exhibition at Gothenburg? The exhibition at Prague is being supported by many other nations in Europe. The Under-Secretary for Air in France has become the President of the French Committee, and Italy, Switzerland, Holland and Germany are all taking part in the exhibition. I know that the people of Czechoslovakia are very wishful that Great Britain should not lag behind in this event. I believe the hon. Gentleman has already taken to the air on one occasion, and I hope that he will follow the excellent example of the former Minister for Air, the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), and go to all the different parts of Europe which he might desire to visit by the same means. I believe that during the past 12 months his predecessor flew 2,000 miles. I had the privilege of meeting him in more than one capital, and I can assure the Under-Secretary that those visits of the Air Minister of this country were immensely helpful to the development of British aviation.

7.0 P.M.

The further point is a more technical one, in regard to helping forward supply. I am encouraged to bring this matter forward by a statement in a previous speech of the Under-Secretary in which he, quite rightly, dwelt on the necessity of the continuity of work. For the purpose of economy, and to facilitate the manufacture of aeroplanes and engines, I suggest that orders should, if possible, be extended over a longer period than that of a single year. It takes at least two years to bring out an aeroplane from design to production, and it takes three years to produce an engine. After the design of the engine has been approved, it takes, roughly, nine months to build it, from the time that the materials are ordered until the machine is finally completed and tested. Therefore, on the one year basis we are not only operating in a way which is detrimental to production, but in a way that is very wasteful so far as the money of the country is concerned. When the orders are being given out, the estimates are passed in April and sometimes as late as May. By the time the manufacturers receive their orders, which are often preliminary, July has arrived, and it is necessary for the manufacturers of the machines or the planes to deliver by the end of March, that is, the end of the financial year, with the result that there must be scramble and excessive cost for materials and overtime. By this method it is almost impossible to keep the works in production, and it is equally difficult to retain what we all wish to retain, the skilled workmen who are necessary. The same applies to the skilled workmen in the cognate factories who have to supply the ingredients of the planes and machines in the shape of castings, etc. If this were once realised and rectified, it would make a very great difference to regular employment in the works of this country which are turning out the planes and the engines, and it would mean a very considerable saving to the country as a whole. I therefore venture to put forward these two points to the Government, with all deference, for their consideration.

This is now the fourth Debate that has taken place on air policy either in this or another place since the opening of Parliament. I am afraid that I have taken up a very long time in those discussions, but to-night I do not propose to speak at length. I rise rather to ask the Under-Secretary of State certain questions, and to say a word or two about the very vital subject raised just now by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). I think the House will have felt that this afternoon's Debate has been a very useful one. The previous Debates were mainly occupied with the military side of aviation. To-day there have been several most interesting speeches made on the scarcely less important side of civil aviation. The Debate was started with a very interesting maiden speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Sir G. Butler), and I was very glad to hear a Member for Cambridge University taking a part in one of these Air Debates. It was a matter of very great satisfaction to me when I was in the Air Ministry—and no doubt to my predecessors—to note the interest which is being taken at Cambridge by the aeronautical school there in aeronautical research and pro- gress. I should very much like to see that interest taken, not only at Cambridge, but in all the universities of the country. I am sure there is a great field for the universities in that direction. If, for instance, they could devote themselves to the solution of certain definite aeronautical problems; it would be of great help, not only to the Air Ministry, but to the progress of the science of aviation generally. Perhaps I may say, in that connection, how important it is to remember the scientific and educational side of aviation—the educational side, for instance, in the form of training for boys and men. I would ask hon. Members opposite, who in some cases may be rather prejudiced against the military side of aviation, to do what several members of the Labour party did last year. They made a visit to one of the educational establishments connected with the Air Ministry. I would ask them, for instance, to go to Halton or Cranwell. They will there see a really first-class education, both for the mind, for the brain, and for the hand—which is most important-being given to the boys and the young men entering the Service. I am sure that the greater the interest that the House will take in the air as a means of education, the better it will be for everybody concerned.

I said just now that I had risen to ask certain questions. The first I want to put to the Under-Secretary of State is in connection with airships. There, as I said the other day, we had almost come to an agreement on a system of subsidies to a commercial company. My hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) in a very interesting speech to-day has pressed on the Government the necessity for proceeding without delay with a programme of airship operations. The Member for Uxbridge and those who were supporting his scheme went through investigation after investigation. Every detail of their scheme was sifted, and finally we came to the conclusion that the scheme was the one most likely to develop airships in the near future. In view of that, whilst I fully realise the fact that any new Government is entitled, and indeed is expected, to investigate the agreements and arrangements of its predecessors, I do say that they are under some obligation to the hon. Member and the promoters of his scheme to see that it is very carefully and fully investigated, and that the fact is realised that for month after month, year after year, there have been these previous inquiries into it. In face of the fact that both the last two Governments made these careful inquiries into it, there is a presumption in favour of that scheme being the best scheme to be put into operation. I hope that the Government will not only give the scheme their sympathetic consideration, but that they will give it their sympathetic consideration quickly. Too great a delay has already taken place. I hope, therefore, that in the next few weeks we shall be able to have a statement from the Government as to their airship policy and that we shall have an Estimate put before this House as to which we shall take a vote whether or not this House approves of the airship policy which I understand the Government is likely to introduce.

There is another subject about which I should like to ask a question. During the autumn we had repeated opportunities of discussing air questions with the representatives of the Dominions. I think I am right in saying that this was the first occasion on which at an Imperial Economic Conference air questions took a very prominent part. We were able to interest the representatives of the Dominions in various proposals that we made for imperial co-operation in aviation development. We put before them schemes under which we suggested that it would be advantageous both to them and to us if we could not have only the same system of training, the same standardised material and as much uniformity as possible in our aviation policy, but under which we offered to give training to Dominion pilots. I should like to know if the new Secretary of State is pressing on with those proposals, and whether anything further has come of them? I think the Committee will agree that it is of the most vital importance that the Dominions and ourselves should develop our aviation, whether it be military or whether it be civil, on the same lines and by as far as possible the same methods.

Then there was raised by the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway (Sir J. Simon) the question of the limitation of air armaments. I should like to reinforce the inquiry that he has made to the Government in that connection. I own that, after these Debates that we have had upon various defence questions during the last few weeks, I am left in great doubt as to what the policy of the Government is in that connection. Could the Under-Secretary give us some further information on the subject? Are the Government, for instance, considering further the Treaty of Mutual Guarantee discussed at great length by the League of Nations last year and investigated by more than one committee? Or are they proceeding rather on the lines of attempting to make, not a general agreement of that kind, but a special agreement, say, with France? Or are they proceeding on the lines suggested by the present Prime Minister in the Debate that took place on disarmament last summer by means of some general international conference? I do not know whether the Under-Secretary of State is in a position to give us further information to-day on those subjects, but I very much hope he is, because, although I have pressed on the House the necessity for the expansion of military air force, whenever I have done it, it has been with the greatest reluctance, and I should welcome, and my hon. Friends behind me would welcome, any reasonable arrangements that could obviate the necessity of an expansion that is already great and that may become much greater in the future. I own that I am not very sanguine on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway has alluded to the special difficulties connected with air disarmament. Those difficulties seem to me to be so great that I am driven to the conclusion that the only practicable solution of the problem is not a reduction of air armaments but a prohibition of aerial warfare altogether. The time may not have arrived for a conference or an investigation on those lines, but I should like to know that the Government are doing something more than making these professions about disarmament and the reduction of armaments, and that they really have something definite in their mind as to how they will proceed, and when they will proceed.

There is another question which I would like to ask the Secretary of State. In the last two Debates we have pressed him to accept a formula for his air policy. It is easy to criticise a formula. At the same time I think that the Government would have been very wise to accept it. It was a formula which was not the creation of my brain—it was arrived at by the Committee of Imperial Defence, and afterwards accepted by the Imperial Conference. That formula, if they accepted it, would have made the present attitude of the Government much easier to understand, for they have accepted our programme, but while they accept our programme I am still in doubt as to what their policy really is. After all, a programme without a policy is a very dangerous and often a very wasteful thing. I would like the Under-Secretary of State to explain to us what he understands by the present air policy of the Government. When I was Secretary of State I understood three things to be meant by our air policy. First, that sufficient air power should be provided for the wants of the Navy and the Army. Second, that sufficient air power should be provided for oversea garrison wants, and, third, that sufficient air power should be provided for home defence. I would like to know do the present Government accept those three objectives as the objectives of their air policy? Do they accept, first, the fact that the Navy and the Army must have sufficient air force for their requirements? Second, the fact that we must provide sufficient air force for our oversea garrisons, and, third, and most important of all—and this is the question on which I wish to lay my final emphasis—do they accept the demand that we make that our air defences must be adequate for any contingency that is likely to arise.

The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull has referred to the percentage of the flying personnel as compared with the Air Force as a whole. We all admit the importance of having a sufficient and efficient ground staff in order to minimise as far as possible the danger in actual flying. At the same time it would be interesting to the Committee to know how the present figures compare with those during the War or with those a year or two back or with those of the Air Force of France or some other country. Another question of more importance is that of the short service commissioned officer. I am aware that the system has worked rather better than was originally anticipated, and that it is popular at any rate with the Ministry, but it is open to some grave objection. First, the officer's term of service comes to an end at the age of 24 or 25, a very difficult age at which to embark on any other career. It is true that they have the advantage of a certain technical training, and the Under-Secretary of State, referring: to this type of officer, praised them very highly and remarked that they were a national asset. I would suggest that that very fact makes the responsibility of the Ministry all the more serious to ensure that this asset is not wasted. What steps do the Ministry take now to ensure employment to these officers when they leave the Service? Further, could he consider the possibility of extending to them a higher proportion of permanent commissions without injustice to other officers in the Service than he is able to do to-day?

We were not given very much information about the seconding of officers from the Army and Navy to the Air Force, and the information which we were given is not very encouraging. I think that 19 officers from the Army and none from the Navy have been seconded this year. That is very disappointing in view of the very great importance which everyone attaches to this form of liaison. I would suggest that nothing should be left undone to ensure an adequate number of officers being seconded to the Air Force for the purposes of liaison. We all know the difficulties of that system and that neither the Admiralty nor the War Office is very fond of it. But at the same time I suggest that those difficulties are minor difficulties compared with the all-important necessity of securing a more vital co-ordination between the various arms of the Service. That is, I think, the point in which our national defence is weak. We have all to realise that in the next war co-ordination will be even more vital than it was in the last war, and unless I am mistaken it is the Air Force itself that will prove the pivot point in this co-ordination.

I would ask, further, whether the hon. Gentleman is considering extending the number of courses available for officers of the Army and Navy with the Air Force? Many Members of the Committee know that, towards the end of the War, some such courses were instituted, and were of the greatest value in enabling infantry officers to understand the scope and limitation of the work done by the Air Force. Therefore, I would suggest that those courses should be extended with this goal in view, to secure that every infantry officer should at some time or other have actual experience with the Air Force. Finally, I confess to some slight anxiety in listening to the last two speeches of the Under-Secretary of State for Air. I had hoped to find him a very Cerberus in defence of his Estimates, and determined at all costs that they should not be touched or interfered with. I have seen nothing of that attitude, and my anxiety is this. We all know that development in this arm is becoming increasingly rapid. It was rapid during the War, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) told us how rapid it has been since, and he made our blood run cold. I hope that the Under-Secretary will, as far as he may, stiffen his back against the other Services when he finds himself in competition with them, and that the Government as a whole will show in this matter that they are alive to what, after all, is the most vital duty of any Government—that is, to protect the lives and welfare of the citizens of the country over whose destinies they preside.

I desire to thank the Committee for the very friendly and favourable reception of these Estimates to-day. I had expected that they would have been examined in closer detail on the financial side, and that questions might well be addressed to me on that side, but it seems to me that this discussion is the best that we have so far had in regard to air policy and all that appertains to it. These Estimates are essential to the working out of the expansion scheme on which the House has been so unanimous. With those Votes we shall be able to put certain works into actual operation at once, and so fulfil the pledges that this Government have made in pursuance of the lines laid down for them. I would remind the Committee that last year all the Votes asked for were given on the first day after a discussion on policy followed by Committee of Supply—all on one day. This is our third day. In reviewing to the best of my ability the extremely interesting speeches which have been made, I shall not take them in the order of what I conceive to be their importance, but rather in the order in which they were addressed to the Committee and on the rough note which I have been able to make.

The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Sir G. Butler) ventured on certain criticism about the short service term of appointment. He alluded to my "jaunty optimism" when I spoke of that arrangement. "Jaunty optimism" is not at all a bad phrase to describe my view of this scheme. I am not responsible for the scheme itself, but when I examined the development which had been made I came to the conclusion that it was good and that it was our business to carry it forward in the way in which it has been begun. I dealt on a previous occasion with some of the advantages arising from short service terms, and I do not propose to do so again to-night. Several questions have been addressed to me regarding the research department. We are asking for more money on behalf of research. The work which is being undertaken through that expenditure is, I think, the kind of work that would be approved by the Committee. We are conducting research in the field of aerodynamics, and physics. We are going into engine research very carefully, into navigation, and so forth. We are also exploring the control of aeroplanes at low speed, the increasing of lifting capacity, the improvement of the hull of flying boats, and we are paying due regard to the development of kite balloons. This work is proceeding systematically, and will continue to do so throughout this year and next.

The question of single-seater balloons has not been lost sight of, though it is difficult for me to say much about it. A small number of kite balloons are actually with the Army at Larkhill, so that the Committee can see that development is not being lost sight of. We are also going into the question of the heating and ventilating of passenger cars. We are developing, in every way possible, light aeroplanes. I would remind the Committee that we are now offering prizes to the extent of £3,000 in a competition on that matter. We are seeking to develop the heavy oil engine. We are doing what is possible to improve devices for landing in fog, and in every respect new types of aircraft are being explored. This work is going on in many centres—the Air Ministry Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, the Royal Aircraft Establishment, the Universities, and many private firms. The hon. and gallant Member for Blackpool (Lieut.-Colonel Meyler), who delivered a very interesting and instructive maiden speech, asked me to state what is the Government policy. Perhaps it would be as well to say what is not the Government policy. It must be obvious to the Committee that the Government policy at present is not reduction, that the Government policy is not disarmament, and that the Government policy is not non-resistance. One would imagine, from reading the newspaper accounts of my offences, that all these things were the Government policy. We are not studying the programme for 1925–26, and I am not prepared to commit the Government to anything further than the programme for 1924–25. Should nothing arise in the course of this year to enable us to put before the House any deviation from that programme, then, presumably, it will be developed on the lines laid down by our predecessors. We must not place ourselves in the position of having; a binding programme the year after next, notwithstanding the possibility of international agreement that may come along in the meantime. The right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely) promised his support to these Estimates, and for that we are indebted. He tells me that as long as we do not let the defences down the support of those on the Liberal Benches will be forthcoming. That applies to aeroplanes, I presume, and not to cruisers.

The right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), who was Secretary of State for Air in the last Government, put questions as to the Government's attitude towards lighter-than-air machines. On that matter I can say very little. The subject is under consideration try a Cabinet Committee, and what may be the results of their deliberations it is not for me to say. But the Government is in earnest in regard to the development of lighter-than-air ships. The Government meant to explore this matter thoroughly in order to develop airships, if there is any possible future for them. Of that I am fairly confident.

I am not on the Committee, and I cannot say. The Committee gave the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) an opportunity to appear before them. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) asked me about an air mail service to India. I suppose that he knows perfectly well that this was the subject of a Civil Aviation Advisory Board report, and that that report recommends research into the types of aircraft and engines to fulfil those purposes.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the only way to get results is to start experiments?

The Sub-Committee on Research have this matter in hand. They have already ordered experimental machines for the purpose. This will be the first money spent on this work so far. I was interested to hear the hon. and gallant Member's opinion that when an air mail service to India is started he would prefer to see it undertaken by the Air Ministry. Whatever chance there may be of obliging him in that respect, he can count on my taking it. He asked me what type of aeroplane is being developed for Service purposes, what is to be the proportion of bombers, of fighters, of night-fighters, and so on. Such information has never been given in this House, and I am not aware that it has even been asked for before. I must respectfully decline to go into particulars in regard to it. I was asked for information also about the defence of dockyard ports. That is part of the whole scheme of home defence, and the Admiralty and the War Office are in close consultation on the subject.

I was asked questions regarding the proportion of the flying to the non-flying personnel. It was suggested that the non-flying personnel is too heavy. This is entirely a question of safety and efficiency. Ground personnel must be adequate for that purpose. We have gone very carefully into the whole subject, and we feel that to reduce the ground personnel at the present time would impair that safety margin. It is our policy that every officer shall fly, and the expansion scheme will tend to reduce somewhat the proportion of ground personnel and to increase the proportion of those engaged in flying. It will not decrease the numbers of ground personnel, but merely their proportion to the flyers. We cannot risk reducing the confidence of the flying personnel in the safety of their machines and in the security of all the arrangements that can be made for them on the ground. The hon. and gallant Member complained that the fees for the Cadet College are too high, and he wishes to see them abolished. I must admit a great deal of sympathy with that view. He is speaking quite correctly when he says that high fees bar out the poorer students. But in this matter there are certain difficulties, and if it is possible to overcome them nothing would please me better. The Army and the Navy are involved in cadet colleges. Moreover, if I remember aright, the Geddes Report a few years ago strongly advised the raising of Cadet College fees. We go to the length of giving 12 cadet-ships a year to boy mechanics. It has also to be remembered that, after fees have been paid, cadets begin straight away to receive 5s. per day in the first year and 10s. per day in the second year. From that sum is deducted the cost of mess, and the remainder is the cadets' own.

The hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon), to whose speech I listened with very great interest, suggested that the Meteorological Department does not forecast correctly. I have heard that complaint before, but I imagine that if a careful record of the daily forecasts were kept and compared with the actual events, the charge would be disproved. When the public believe that a certain service for which they pay is a little unsatisfactory, their candid opinion is freely expressed, because of the feeling of proprietorship over the work which is being done in their behalf. I remember when the telephones were privately-owned and managed, dissatisfaction with the service hardly ever found expression in the daily newspapers, but the moment it came over to State ownership and management, the people began to realise it was their own property, the critical faculties seemed to be quickened, and it was regarded as a right and proper privilege to have a corner in the newspapers to proclaim one's complaints against this service, notwithstanding the fact that it had never occurred to them to do that when it was under company ownership. I imagine that very much the same spirit is at the back of those pro bono publico writers in the news-papers who complain about the inaccuracy of the weather forecasts.

The hon. and gallant Member spoke of a certain delay in the placing of aeroplane orders, if I understood him correctly. I have no knowledge of any delay in that respect. We are undertaking during the forthcoming year that orders shall be placed in such a way as to secure the utmost continuity of employment, and to have them facilitated always with that regard. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), whose approval of the Estimates I noted with satisfaction, asked if I can hold out any hope of a move towards disarmament internationally. I cannot in this respect speak for the Government as to what actual steps have been taken, either to promote a conference or to make some definite move. Indeed, it is scarcely an Air Ministry matter in any primary sense to make that move. I imagine that the inquiries had better be addressed to the Prime Minister, but I can say that the Government are exploring every possible avenue for the purpose of promoting international agreement on this very important subject. Then I am asked, what is the divergence in type between the civil and the service aeroplane? The two types are different, and they must tend to become more different as time goes on, but I am not at all tempted to feel that the civil machine can be of no use in war. I wish I could think that. Although it cannot fly so high as the fighting plane, nevertheless it appears to be quite practicable for night work, and for the transport of men.

In regard to the point made by the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain), on the prospect of a possible Prague service, we should like to see this service started, and we shall do what there is possible for us to do to facilitate putting the scheme on its feet; but the difficulty that I pointed out on a former occasion largely centres round the disabilities which have been put upon Germany in regard to flying arrangements. The nearest way to Prague is over German territory, and the disabilities, which are upon Germany in regard to her aeroplane industry, are such as to make her not willing to give us facilities and rights which she does not enjoy herself. If those disabilities can be removed, then the projected service between London and Prague will certainly be brought a great deal nearer than it is now.

The right hon. Gentleman opposite wishes to know if we are still pursuing the system of Dominion co-operation and training for the purpose of securing common methods, in which he was interested during his term of office. I have pleasure in assuring him that we are looking at that matter precisely as he looked at it during his term of office. Arrangements are being made with the Governments of Canada, Australia and New Zealand for the training of officers as pilots. We do reserve places at the Staff College for two officers from Canada and two from Australia, and they are now attending courses at that college.

I cannot accept any formulae in regard to our Home Defence Force, and the programme upon which it is based. The anxiety that I have in this matter is not to give an assurance of competing with any other Powers, not to give the impression of building against any other Powers, but to make our course towards international agreement with all Powers as clear and as straightforward as we can, unencumbered with any formulae which shall bind us in the future to any course of action on the matter of home defence. I do not attach the importance to a formula that my right hon. Friend does. To the best of my ability, I think I have covered the points that have been addressed to me.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer the questions that I asked him as to whether he accepts, as the three duties of the Air Ministry, the provision of sufficient air power for, first, the Navy and Army, secondly, the garrisons overseas, and, thirdly, home defence?

I see no objection whatever to accepting that. It is exactly what we are doing now. I have done my best to deal with the questions addressed to me, and I hope there is now no difficulty remaining in the way of the Committee allowing the Votes for which I have asked to be agreed to.

We all feel very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the details he has given, and the care with which he has answered the various points that have been raised, but I must admit his speech leaves in my mind a feeling of bitter disappointment. It is useless for him to say that the Committee of Supply on the Votes of Army, Navy and Air Force are not the proper occasion for discussing disarmament. I remember that Mr. Churchill, whom I am still permitted to mention by name, raised in Committee of Supply in 1912 the question of a naval holiday, and, although I realise that the present Government have been only a short time in office, and their objective is the same as that of those below the Gangway, still I think we are entitled to say it is disappointing that, although we have had three Air Debates, we cannot have any statement that they are taking some definite steps towards some pact or agreement for mutual air disarmament. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us when we shall have a statement, but at an early opportunity, when the matter appears a little more matured, we shall certainly raise it again.

The Under-Secretary of State for Air said there had not been much financial criticism, and I quite agree with him. Through the whole of this Debate there has been very little criticism of the Estimates themselves, and I propose to make one or two remarks, and ask him if he will be good enough to reply to them. The first point is as to the state of the air defence of this country. Last year we had £122,000,000 taken for home defence purposes; £12,000,000 was given to the Air, and the former Secretary of State for Air comes down to the House and tells us we have only 80 first-class machines for the defence of this country against 1,000 of France. This year we are taking £14,000,000, and the defences of this country will not be in a proper position as regards France. Surely one of the great principles of defence should be that we provide for home defence, and I submit that we are not taking enough money for that in the Air Estimates. I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a former Debate on the Air if he could take more money from the older Services, and give it to the Air, so as to put our air defence in a proper position. We surely should have the defence of our homes properly secured before any of the older Services are given the money, and I submit that the Under-Secretary should have asked for more money for this purpose.

I should like to say a word about the relationship of the Navy to the Air Force, and to ask the hon. Gentleman to give us a little more detail on the matter. I am told now that airmen hate to go to any naval station. I want to say a word, too, about airships. Ever since 1909 we have had a most wobbling policy on airships. We built in 1909 the rigid airship "Mayfly," and had an accident, and during the War we had some airship development. We had the S.S. type, the North Sea typo and after that the rigid type, which was too late to be of much service in the War. And then all our airships are scrapped. Millions of the taxpayers' money is wasted. The hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) comes forward with an airship policy to try to develop airships on civil lines. He is taken before committee after committee, and nothing is done, and now another committee is being set up. The Under-Secretary says that the Government are very interested in lighter-than-air craft. May I ask him, are they going to build airships themselves? If so, who are their advisers to be, and have they any experience to go into the whole details of manufacturing rigid airships? Taking a little detail on the finance side, I would ask the Under-Secretary to turn to Vote 1 with regard to pay and personal allowances. What has been done with regard to the recommendations of the Anderson Committee? Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what they propose to do? If you take Vote 2, you will see there large sums for provisions and horses. May I ask what horses have to do with the Air Service? In regard to the medical services, could the hon. Gentleman tell us what was the Report of the Committee that went into the whole question of the combining of the three medical services? On page 14, there is a very large sum under barrack services. Could the hon. Gentleman tell us what that large sum is for, and what he means? In Vote 3, which I do not think anyone has touched upon, we see aeroplanes, seaplanes, engines and new machines. I find that nearly £2,000,000 was set down last year for new machines. Was that money expended on new machines, and, if not, why not? There is a sum of nearly a million of money for engines. Could the hon. Gentleman tell me if those engines were delivered, and, if not, why not? The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) asked that we should be given a list of the fighting machines, the bombing machines, and so on. The Under-Secretary says he cannot give us this; that it is too confidential; but the former Secretary of State for Air told us the number of fighting machines in the country. Why cannot we have a list of the aeroplanes, the seaplanes, torpedo aeroplanes, kite balloons, airships and helicopters, and would the Under-Secretary kindly say in that connection what became of the helicopter being built at Farnborough by a clever inventor?

In Vote 3, £40,000 is given for Farnborough, but if you turn over two pages you will find a sum of £401,000 down for Farnborough. During the Coalition Government's time I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister and asked him not to built machines at Farnborough because it was so expensive on account of overhead charges. What do we get from that £500,000 of money spent at Farnborough? Do we get any new machines? If so, what type is produced? I know they do experimental and research work there, but nearly £500,000 is expended at Farnborough. There is a lot of money taken for research work, and I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman about the National Physical Laboratory. Have they enough in the way of air-channels and so on to carry out the work of the Royal Air Force and also civil work? That is a point which should be looked into, because our civil work may be crowded out.

The Under-Secretary mentioned ground-stock. He patted himself on the back, and said that for efficiency you must have a large ground-stock. I quite agree with him, but we have so many accidents happening. During last month there was a fatal accident at Croydon. Then we had the collision in the air a short time ago, and four people killed. We had another accident through a machine getting in the swirl of another machine's propeller. There was another accident at Farnborough quite recently. To-day we have another accident at Baghdad. I do submit that the Under-Secretary for Air should ask the Air Minister if something cannot be done to stop this large number of accidents. In the early days we set up a Committee which went into this question, and they got a Report out and circulated it. I ask the Under-Secretary to tell me if that Committee is functioning now? We owe something to those young pilots who are flying and also to their people, and I ask him to look into that point very care-fully.

There is another point I wish to allude to, and I do not do it with any offence to the Under-Secretary for Air. That is, the speeches he makes in the country about disarmament. He said at Wolverhampton the other day:

Would the hon. Gentleman say what part of the Scriptures that passage comes from?

I did not say it was part of the Scriptures. I said I believed that the strong man armed had peace in his home.

I think my Friend was referring to the passage which says that

"a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace, but when a stronger than he shall come upon him and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour in which he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

I have not the Biblical knowledge of the hon. Gentle- man, but we are in perfect accord over that. I hope the Under-Secretary will give me answers to the questions I have put.

My hon. Friend who spoke last had not the good fortune to be called earlier, though he is a Member of the House who has great knowledge of air questions. That is obvious from his speech, and I believe he has had experience in regard to the Air Force. He has asked questions on various matters which are neither obstructive nor obnoxious in any sense or form. I think that we are entitled to have such questions as these answered. I now understand an agreement has been made in regard to this Vote, but it seemed to me a misfortune that a speech so well thought out received no answer. However, in the circumstances, I make no complaint.

I quite admit that the hon. Gentleman's questions are interesting and should receive an answer, but he read them out so quickly that I failed to get them down. When I see them in the OFFICIAL REPOKT to-morrow, I will go to the trouble of giving a proper reply to them, and I think that may satisfy the hon. Member; or I could reply on the Report stage.

I am very grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for Air. These are questions in which I take a great interest. If they are sent to me on paper, I shall be very much obliged.

Question put, and agreed to.

Pay, Etc., of the Air Force

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £2,941,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the pay, etc., of His Majesty's Air Force at Home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Works, Buildings, and Lands

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £2,127,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Works, Buildings, Repairs, and Lands of the Air Force, including Civilian Staff and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Quartering, Stores (Except Technical), Supplies, and Transport

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,452,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transport of the Air Force, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Technical and Warlike Stores (Including Experimental and Research Services)

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £5,700,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Technical and Warlike Stores of the Air Force (including Experimental and Research Services), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Navy Estimates, 1924–1925

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That 100,500 Officers, Seamen, Boys, and. Royal Marines be employed for the Sea Service, together with 287 for the Marine Police, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

I congratulate the Government upon keeping up the defences of the country. I know it has taken a certain amount of boldness on their part, but it is a matter of congratulation for the whole country that they have adopted this attitude on the question of defence. The party which is responsible for the government of the country has to look after the country as a whole and the Government must not listen to some of the smaller parts of their party.

The smaller parts are those people who assume that man, as he is now, loves his neighbour as himself and that the Sermon on the Mount is practicable in all politics. That is the ideal towards which all Christian nations are endeavouring to work, and I know how difficult it is for some hon. Members opposite to reconcile the necessities of defence with the Sermon on the Mount. When they understand it a little better, and are able to preach the Gospel, and heal the sick, we will not have any need of armaments of any kind, but until we get so far, it seems to be the absolute duty of the British Government to keep the Navy, not for aggressive fighting purposes, but purely for defence. I congratulate the Government on having had the courage to take the steps they have taken, and if they learn as much in the next six weeks as they have learned in the last six weeks, even Singapore will be safe in their hands. As office seems to have such an effect, I am very sorry that some of the back benchers did not get jobs. I think it would have helped them.

Mr. Chairman, you should ask the Noble Lady not to insult other people. We are not going to allow her to do so.

On a point of Order. I suggest that the Noble Lady has made a remark which ought not to be made, and had it not been made the interruptions which are complained of would not have resulted.

Some of the back benchers on the Government side of the Committee seem to think they have a perfect right to hurl any remarks they choose at this side, but the slightest criticism directed against them brings them up in arms. I have not said anything that is offensive. I have only said what is true, and they do not like that. I appeal to you, Mr. Chairman, if it is not the case that people often criticise us for things which are not in our consciousness at all, but the moment we hit their weak point they jump up. I observe that no reference has been made in the First Lord's statment to the proposed reduction in the pay of the men of the Navy on the lines suggested by the Anderson Report. I am very glad no attempt is being made to lower the standard of men who have not had an increase in wages for 50 years. I wish to direct attention to the very inadequate provision which is made for the pensions of the widows of lower deck men. The widows of Navy men are not entitled to any pension at all unless the man's death is proved to be directly attributable to service. We know how difficult it is to do so in all cases. If illness or injuries causing a man's death are aggravated by service, the widow receives no pension, and the scale of post-War pensions to the widows of men who die in the service and as a result of service is most inadequate. A sum of 10s. 6d. per week is a poor pittance for the widow of a man who has served his country in a calling which, until recently, was under-paid, and which is always dangerous. I hope the Government will consider this matter. I tried to press it on the late Government, but without any success, and I trust this Government will take a different view.

No reference has been paid to the crying need for placing the marriage allowances made to naval officers with wives and families on the same footing as the marriage allowances in the case of the corresponding ranks in the Army and Air Force. I urge the consideration of this matter on the Committee. Hon. Members do not seem to realise that the position is much more difficult for the naval officer, because he has practically to keep up two homes, his home on ship and the home of his wife and family on land. Why they should be treated differently from the officers of the Army and Air Force. I have never been able to understand. They get no indulgence passage for their wives and families when they are moved to another part of the world, but Army officers do, and the differentiation seems to be most unfair. The lower deck ratings receive marriage allowances which are the exact equiva- lent of those received by the correspondings ranks in the Army and Air Force, and why this concession should be withheld from the officers, I do not know.

I also desire to call the attention of the Admiralty to certain work which could be done in the dockyards and which will recommend itself even to the most pacific of the Government supporters as work of a peaceful nature which will keep men off the dole. First, I might point out the deterioration and dilapidation which has taken place in the buildings and the roadways of some of the dockyards. Plymouth is the key to the country, and it has been built up around the dockyard, and the skilled men there cannot be dealt with in the same way as agricultural labourers. Plymouth has great claims upon whatever Government is in power, and there are already 6,000 unemployed on the register there. There are certain projects which would provide these men with work. I am glad to see a reference to the widening of the basin, and I wish to know if that will include the provision of a graving dock as well. The dredging which would be necessary would employ a great many men, and so also would the reconditioning of the buildings and workshops. These are in very bad condition. If privately owned they would be condemned by the factory inspector, and the owner would be brought into Court.

We should, and must some time, modernise the machine shops and plants. The heavier calibre of ships and armour makes new plants necessary in such establishments as the dockyards, for them to be in a position to deal with repair work without loss of time, and more powerful travelling cranes should be provided, so that work could be performed without fear of accidents. Then there is the question of building something for motor vehicles and their proper accommodation, for, as things are now, they are left out in the rain, and it is costing the Government a good deal on account of the rapid deterioration. Another matter is the rush at the gates when the men leave work, which is the cause of many minor accidents, and some general improvement should be effected without further delay. It is highly dangerous if vehicles are passing through the gates at the same time as the men, and this is a very pressing need. A new mustering station is long overdue at the northern yard. There are many men who, when entering the yard, have to walk for twenty minutes before reaching their workshops, and this is a loss of time. As to roadways, the approaches to the yards were made at a time when horse traction was used, and they are now in a deplorable condition, so that at a time when heavy carting is going on, they have to get traction engines to pull the carts up. That would employ a great many men and is a thing that ought to be done. The dining halls in the north and south yards are appalling. They are right over the lavatories, and a sanitary inspector would condemn them. I hope the Admiralty will think of that. Again, sometimes, the men have great difficulty in keeping out the rain, such is the state of dilapidation of the buildings.

Further, the alteration of No. 3 slip is very important. Sooner or later this will be an absolute necessity, and it would be far more economical to do it now than to wait until later. I would urge that it would not be such an expensive job at Devonport as it would be in other dockyards, because no blasting of rock or cutting through concrete beds would be necessary. It would employ the unskilled men for whom it is so difficult to find employment. We know that the Royal Dockyards have to get a larger slip, and it would be cheaper to have it done at Plymouth than anywhere else. Then there are the roadways at Bull Point. At most of the Admiralty shops they are bad, but they are particularly bad at Bull Point, and at the Royal William Victualling Yard they are in an awful condition. The roadways and general repair work would employ many ex-service men who, having joined the Colours at 18 years of age, returned to civil life at 21, and are at present, owing to the general slump, on the dole.

I know that it is said that the dockyard Members always have to speak for the dockyards and to press for a larger Navy, but I have never been one of those people who believe in competition in armaments. I welcomed the Washington Conference. I think it is the greatest step we have had for many, many years, and I have always had the courage, although a dockyard Member, to stand up for the League of Nations, in which I believe. [An HON. MEMBER: "You voted for the cruisers!"] Yes, but that is in line with the Washington Conference. I am not in the least ashamed of having voted for the cruisers, and I am proud that our Government have had the courage to go forward with them. I am sorry to see my Liberal friends making party politics of the safety of the country. Knowing very well what trouble the Government have got, it distressed me to see them go off the deep end about those cruisers. I have tried to show that there is work that can be done at the dockyards which is really necessary. I know the First Lord knows very well that there are many men who will have to come out, and that those men will go on the dole, but all of this work that I have mentioned has really got to be done, and I hope he will give it his earnest consideration. Once more I congratulate the Government on their courage and patriotism, and in reference to hon. Members who think that in keeping up the British Navy you are a menace to civilisation, I can only tell them that, without it, it would be impossible for Christianity to be preached in all quarters of the globe. They should remember that.

The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) has brought forward again to-night several cases concerning her constituency, and, if I may be permitted to say so, in bringing these cases before the Board of Admiralty, she shows that she is giving close attention to her constituency, but towards the end of her speech she twitted us of the Liberal party with acting on lines of party politics in opposing the five cruisers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I gather that that is the view of hon. Members in other quarters of the Committee as well, but I submit that in our attitude on that subject we of the Liberal party have followed a perfectly consistent course for the last 30 years. We have always been willing to find sufficient money for the needs of the Navy, and 10 years before the War the Liberal Government was responsible for the naval defence of this country. Even the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) will admit that on 4th August, 1914, the British Navy was in a supreme state for defence, and, according to the late First Lord of the Admiralty last week, we had an overwhelming strength in cruisers and destroyers.

The whole case of Rosyth clearly shows that the action of the Government at that time revealed that that dockyard was in a forward state, and, according to some gallant Admirals, they would rather the North Sea Fleet had been stationed further North than Rosyth.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was impossible for the battle fleet to go to Rosyth before the early part of 1917?

I am well aware of that, but several books have been published about the War, and I think that Rosyth is an open question. In any event, certain gallant Admirals consider that the North Sea Fleet would have been better stationed in the far north—I do not profess to have any opinion myself—than at Rosyth. The whole state of the British Navy during the War clearly reveals that it is not true that we have been actuated by party politics in our attitude during the last 10 days. I submit that our action reveals quite the contrary. Passing from the Noble Lady, if she will excuse me, I would like to ask one or two questions of the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty. The Minister in charge of the Estimates made great play with his reduction, and pointed out with pride that he had saved £2,200,000 in comparison with the Estimates of last year, but I would like to investigate those figures The last available year for which we have figures to show the actual cost of the Navy was 1922–23, and the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty will agree with me that when we are comparing the cost of the Navy one year with another, it is only fair to deduct the non-effective charges and the war charges. Taking that as a basis, I find that the actual expenditure on the Navy in 1922–23 was £46,352,000, and the Estimates now presented to this House by the Financial Secretary, deducting also the non-effective charges and the war charges, amount to £47,625,000. I therefore submit that the Estimates this year, compared with the actual expendi- ture for 1922–23, instead of showing a decrease show an actual increase of about £1,250,000.

In addition to that, the Financial Secretary in his statement has pointed out that in the Estimates, at present before the House, the Admiralty have endeavoured to budget more accurately for their requirements. In former years, from one cause or another, they asked this House for a larger sum of money than they actually required for the year. This year they have budgeted more carefully. Therefore, had they not done that, the Estimates for this year would show a larger increase than the l£ millions to which I have referred. In addition to that, one must have regard to the cost-of-living figure. In the year 1922–23 the cost-of-living figure in the Navy Estimates was 100. In the present Estimates the figure is 75. In other words, the cost-of-living figure, according to these Estimates, is down 25 per cent. The Government have budgeted more accurately—they may require to come and present a Supplementary Estimate—but even allowing for these two factors, the Estimates this year are 1¼ millions more than the actual expenditure on the Naval Services, excluding non-effective and War charges, than the year 1922–23.

Let me make one more comparison, and compare the Estimates of this year with the Estimates of 1923–24. The late First Lord of the Admiralty pointed out—and pointed out truly—that the War charges are down this year in comparison with the Estimates for which he was responsible. Yet taking the same comparison and deducting the non-effective charges and the War charges for both years, the Estimates for 1923–24 amounted to £49,100,000, while for 1924–25 they are £47,625,000—in other words only a reduction of if millions on these Estimates. I think I have quoted enough figures to show that the Estimates—

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will tell the Committee whether he has taken into account the Appropriations-in-Aid and the drawing upon the existing stocks.

I have taken the actual expenditure. I think if the late First Lord of the Admiralty will refer to the actual Appropriations-in-Aid for the years I have quoted, he will find that, one year with another, there is no very great difference—a half a million perhaps. Taking these matters, therefore, into consideration I submit that my figures will bear investigation. Notwithstanding that, the Financial Secretary comes here and makes great play that the Labour Government have reduced these Estimates. I submit, after comparison of this year with the actual expenditure for the year 1922–23, there is actually an increase—at a time when the cost of living, figures have been reduced, and the Government have themselves said that they are budgeting more carefully for their requirements in the coming year. I well recollect that 12 months ago the present Chancellor of the Exchequer moved a Resolution on these Estimates, and he divided the House. May I remind hon. Members of the words of the Resolutions put forward by the present Chancellor of Exchequer. They were:

My object in rising is, first of all, to call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the actual amount of our naval expenditure, and also to make an appeal to him to look at these Estimates as they appear to the men and women throughout the country. I submit that at no period in the history of the British Isles could a Government make a greater cut in our naval expenditure than to-night.

The noble Lord always refers to 1914, but I have already dealt with that point, and he will excuse me if I do not again take up his interruptions. I believe there is a deep desire in the minds of the people of this country that there should be a reduction in the money spent on armaments, a desire that is shared by our fellow kinsmen in America. I quote from the "Times" of 11th February to the effect that the' House of Representatives discussed the Naval Estimates for that country, and a Resolution was brought forward, or was about to be, inviting the Government to take the first step in another world-conference to reduce the size of armaments. I hope that before the next Navy Estimates are submitted to this House, the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be able to translate into action his words and speech in this House just 12 months ago. I well remember—I think it was nine months ago—the present Prime Minister urging upon the Government of the day to take immediate steps to call an international conference to curtail the excessive cost of armaments.

I am not here this evening to blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister for not having taken immediate steps. They have only been in office a very short time, but I am bound to record my opinion that in the first round of the struggle between the Admiralty and the Government the Admiralty have won. I have given my reason why I think they could very well afford to give way on Singapore in order that they may get their cruisers at once. The present Government is not the first Government that the Admiralty have flouted. They flouted the Geddes Committee and the late Mr. Bonar Law, and they have also flouted this House on numerous occasions. I am sure that the ex-First Lord of the Admiralty will agree with me when I say that in regard to many big cuts which the Geddes Committee recommended, more especially dealing with the personnel, the Admiralty got their own way.

I do not know how far it is in order for an hon. Member to attack public servants who are not in this House. In the matter referred to by the hon. Member, the responsibility rests entirely with the members of the Government concerned. In connection with what the hon. Gentleman said about the Geddes Committee, the full responsibility for anything that was done with regard to the recommendations of that Committee were with the Cabinet of the day, in a minor degree with myself, and with this House which accepted, and, indeed, made no effective attempt to refute arguments in which I showed the absurdity of the proposals put forward by that Committee.

If I have said anything disrespectful to the Sea Lords I apologise, because it was not my intention to criticise their action.

Then what the hon. Member means that the two representatives of the Admiralty on the Treasury Bench are responsible?

Not only those two hon. Members, but also the noble Lord in another place, are responsible to the taxpayer for the policy of the Board of Admiralty. I am dealing with the way in which the Geddes recommendation on personnel was flouted. I have here a Report of that Committee, and the taxpayers are now being asked to make provision for 100,000 men for the services of the British Navy. The Geddes Committee, composed of an ex-First Lord of the Admiralty and other well-known shipping men of great public service and repute, recommended in the year 1922–3 that the Navy should consist of 86,000 men, and this year we are being asked to make provision for 100,000 men. They went on to state that if the Washington Conference was successful that number should be reduced. I submit that that number is excessive, more particularly when we have regard to the dangers of the future and to the financial situation of to-day. In these Estimates there should be three guiding principles which ought to influence the Financial Secretary or any Member of this House in considering this question. In the first place, they should consider the present situation abroad; in the second place, the fears of the future; and, thirdly, the financial needs of the country to-day.

When we consider the future, when we regard France with her heavy deficit, Japan after the earthquake, and the financial situation in this country; when we have regard to our good relationship with America overseas, I am bound to say that I see no necessity—keen as I am on maintaining British supremacy in every quarter of the world, and proud as I am of the services of the officers and men in the British Navy—for asking the taxpayers of this country to find such a large sum of money for the needs of the Navy this year. I hope that during the next 12 months the present Chancellor of the Exchequer will get to close grips with this subject, and if I was anxious to make any striking comment against him, I have here a speech made on 12th March, which is a most powerful speech, and if hon. Members will consider that speech and translate into action the underlying policy which he sketched out in these Naval Estimates in the coming year, then the First Lord, or rather the Parliamentary Secretary, will be able to come to this House, and say, "We are providing an adequate defence for our people here while at the same time we are able to reduce the present Estimates by several million pounds."

I want to bring to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Admiralty a letter which has come to my notice during the last few days. It is a letter issued from his Department to the officers in charge of the various dockyards all over the country. No doubt it has been put forward with the very best intentions, and I do not wish to criticise the intentions of the people who sent out that letter. Everybody knows that there are certain roads which do not come under the control of the Road Board which are paved with good intentions, and I suggest to the Admiralty that if the idea which is put forward in that letter is going to be carried out that it will create for them difficulties far greater than they contemplated when they sent it out. The letter puts forward a suggestion that joiners now employed in the dockyards should be transferred from the work on which they are now engaged and used for joinery work in connection with housing schemes and that their work should be done by other mechanics.

Any of us, whether employer or employed, who has had any experience at all in connection with what are known as demarcation rules and demarcation lines, will know perfectly well that, if this movement is carried out, it will set up a dispute that will Seriously disorganise the dockyards, will not in any way advance the policy that it is meant to advance, namely, the building of houses for the people, and will generally lead to a condition of things very much worse than that which exists at the present time. I wanted to draw attention to that, because I do not want to see anything done that will delay housing, and at the same time I do not want to see anything done that will disorganise the excellent work that is being done by mechanics in the dockyards. This, however, is a suggestion that cannot be justified in any way. I do not know why it should be suggested that the ordinary work which is performed by joiners at the present time, and which is their legitimate work, should be done by other mechanics, some of whom may be paid very much lower wages than are being paid now. While it is suggested in this letter that this is merely a temporary arrangement, those of us who have any knowledge of the existing facts know perfectly well that, while it might be introduced as a temporary arrangement, it must ultimately become more or less permanent. It would cause so much disorganisation that I hope we shall have some assurance to-night from the Admiralty that no attempt will be made to carry it out. I have no desire to put any obstacles in the way of the Admiralty, or of the officials responsible for the dockyards, but I want to warn them that, if this suggestion is carried out, it will lead to difficulties infinitely greater than those which the writers of the letter believe to exist at the present time.

I am very glad that the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) dealt with the personnel, because it is one of the very best tests as to whether we are carrying out the principle of the League of Nations Covenant, which is to reduce armaments to the minimum consistent with national safety. The hon. Member pointed out that our personnel numbers 100,500 under these Estimates, and he stigmatised that as excessive. I propose to show that it is not excessive at all. How can the hon. Member judge whether it is excessive or not, when he does not know what the personnel of foreign Powers is? Can he tell me what the Japanese personnel is? He does not know.

I have gone pretty closely into the total personnel of the American Navy, and their numbers compare favourably with ours; but I think the hon. and gallant Member will agree with me when I say it would be an insult to our British sailors to compare, man for man, the efficiency and bravery of the British sailor against the Japanese, Italian or American sailor.

I think that that is a quite unnecessary compliment. The Japanese are a concentrated nation, whereas we have world-wide duties to perform, and have 80,000 miles of trade routes to patrol. The actual Japanese Navy at this moment, however, numbers 70,000. and it is going to be increased by 15,000 before 1929. I venture to say that the comparison of 100,500 with 70,000 well illustrates how moderate are the demands of the Board of Admiralty. The Washington Conference decided that five to three was a very fair proportion) in capital ships and aircraft carriers, and that was the only standard fixed. If we were to have five to three as compared with the Japanese Navy at this moment, we should have 116,500 instead of 100,500. I would call the attention of the Committee to the fact that, when we concentrated against Germany, this country had a personnel of 131,100, and Germany had a personnel of 38,028—not 70,000 like Japan. That, I think, shows how much more trusting we are in this matter nowadays than we were when we concentrated against Germany under a Liberal Government.

9.0 P.M.

I noticed, also, that the hon. Member renewed his attacks on the Board of Admiralty, but that he was careful to say that he was not, like some of his colleagues, aiming his attacks at the Admirals. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) was, however, less careful, and specifically directed his attacks at the Admirals, two of them very distinguished officers whose services in the War are well known. The favourite method of attack is to say that they are always threatening and bullying and blustering the Government of the day by handing in their resignations. I do not believe that they have ever threatened to send in their resignations, but the hon. and gallant Member for Leith said:

The second case occurred in the 'sixties, when two Admirals handed in their resignations because the ironclad programme of the day was not sanctioned by the Government. I think Lord Derby was Prime Minister at the time, and he immediately begged them to resume their seats at the Board of Admiralty, and conceded the ironclads, which were most useful at a later date. Again, there was the case in which Sir William Harcourt made an inaccurate statement in the House of Commons, and it was desired that he should correct it. Without any hesitation he came forward and corrected his inaccurate statement. From then until the year 1906 there was no case, and then there was a threat of resignation because 250 Members of the Parliament of the day had been got to sign a memorial for an inquiry into the training scheme of the Navy. Sir Henry Camp-bell-Bannerman was anxious to grant this inquiry, and Sir John Fisher intimated that he would resign if it were held. He won the day, but the training scheme was abandoned gradually and altogether during the War, so that in that case the House of Commons was proved to be right and the Admiralty wrong.

The Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) made, as he always does, a very informing speech on the Navy Estimates, and he referred to the peril of 1914, and said that we were unprepared for war in that year. I think he was right, and that many things would have been accomplished, and the War much shortened, had our naval preparations been more adequate. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith, on the contrary, boasted that the Liberal Government of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman at the outset of its career cut down the programme by two capital ships. Had those two battle cruisers been available they would have been in the Pacific, and the disgrace of the Battle of Coronel, and much of the loss of shipping and trade that occurred, would never have occurred.

There is one small point my hon. and gallant Friend made, with which I do not agree. He said, as an instance of the lack of preparation of the Liberal Government in 1914, that we had no boom defences and we had only 30 mines. That is a true statement, but we cannot hold the politicians responsible. Most decidedly, the sailors were responsible for the absence of boom defences and sea mines. They themselves had turned down boom defences and had neglected to make provision for mines. I was aware of the Monroe boom long before the War—a most excellent idea—but a Committee, presided over by Lord Jellicoe, had turned boom-defences down. As for the mines, I had myself in 1895, in a lecture which the Royal United Service Institution invited me to give, but which was suppressed by the Admiralty, at the request of the Foreign Office, a few days before it was to be delivered, though it had passed the censorship of a former First Sea Lord of the Admiralty, I had suggested that we should get rid of all the defensive mines which were carried on battleships and substitute sea mines, or blockade mines as I called them, to be carried on special vessels. It was only in 1904, when the Russo-Japanese War occurred, that the Admiralty sent out telegrams to every battleship in the country to get rid of its defensive mines and land them in the dockyards. I pointed out in 1895 that they were more dangerous to friend than to foe, because shell fire would get to them and they would blow the ships up if they went into action. As to blockade mines, although suggested long before, not by me only, but by many officers, we had only 30, and the type of mine not of much use. They were of bad design, but I say again you cannot blame the politicians for that. The real reason for this lack of preparation was that the sailors were utterly opposed to having a War Staff, and they were also opposed to separating the administrative side from the conduct of war. I had written to the then Prime Minister in 1908, and had begged and implored him not to risk the example of France, which in the year 1871 had had an inquiry after the war. I said we had just got time before the coming war with Germany to put our house in order, and if he was not prepared to separate the administrative side from those who conducted the war, just as Von Roon was separated from Moltke in the war of 1870, then for Heaven's sake get together a Royal Commission and inquire into both the War Office and the Admiralty, and see if we could effect a change. I got the usual answer, that the matter would be considered, which, of course, meant that my letter went into the wastepaper basket. We have now seen the necessity for these changes, and I can assure the Committee that any advice they get from the Board of Admiralty now is the considered advice of the War Staff, and that they can rely on the Admiralty keeping the Estimates down to what is vitally necessary.

We had a discussion the other night on the question of the five cruisers which took up nearly all the time, and the whole discussion ranged round a wrangle whether the cruisers were being built because they were vitally necessary, or because they were replacements, or because they were to relieve unemploy- ment. One could suggest arguments for all three, and say there were reasons of all three kinds, but the only count that really matters is whether the thing is vitally necessary. I do not care whether this country is hard up or whether it is well off, any expenditure on armaments which is not vitally necessary is squandered expenditure. The manifesto which a number of Liberals signed seems to say, as several speakers have said, that we have too many cruisers. But I am not considering the present moment. In matters of shipbuilding you have to consider three or four years hence, and the reason we select 1929 is that it happens to be the year which the Government have ordered the various fighting Departments to reckon on their Estimates on the assumption that there will be no war until 1929. They do not say there will be no war after that and they do not say there will be a war after that, but they say, "you are to frame your Estimates on the assumption that no war can break out until 1929."

When you come to consider the number of cruisers we shall have available when 1929 comes we shall have only 28 reckoned as less than 15 years old. With the five which the Government are going to build, but to which many Liberals object, that will be 33. The Japanese will have 25. The most important element of a cruiser is speed, and you find the Japanese will have 25 of over 30 knots, whereas we shall only have eight plus five, the five being the five the Government are going to build—13 as against 25 of over 30 knots, the Japanese cruisers being all of 32 or 33 knots. In these circumstances, unless we are going to build more than the five at later dates, we shall not be in the position in which the Admiralty assured the Food Supply Commission in 1904 that if we fail to shadow enemy vessels prior to war, we could without doubt always have a superior number to chase those that escape. You cannot chase 25 cruisers with 13. That is a certainty. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) pointed out that we had 32 cruisers looking for the "Karlsruhe" and the "Emden" in the late War. That shows the tremendous number of cruisers you want on the oceanic routes to cut down escaped cruisers. Let the Committee imagine they are playing the war game as war games are often played, British Fleet v . Japanese Fleet. If you have 33 cruisers and the Japanese have 25, the British Admiral has two problems to consider, the defence of commerce and the scouting line of his own Fleet. He can only conjecture what will be the scouting line of the Japanese Fleet. He cannot be certain and he will naturally put it high, and if the Japanese are going to have 20 cruisers with their Fleet he will at least ask for 20 for his own Fleet. But as he has to keep the sea and the Japanese would fight, like the Germans did, at their chosen moment, in order to have 20 cruisers he must have a 25 per cent. margin. That would only leave him, with these five cruisers that are going to be built, eight over for the whole defence of commerce along all our routes. That is one of the reasons why I most cordially support the scheme which is known as the Burney dirigible airship scheme, because there is no doubt those dirigibles will do the work of several cruisers and will be of great assistance acting in conjunction with the cruisers. I hope the Government will soon come to a decision and hurry up that scheme.

I want to give two other tests, and I am going to give figures different from those given from my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook and others which have been given, because my figures are perfectly accurate and take into consideration the age limit at which vessels fall obsolete. They were taking into consideration other vessels which were beyond the age limit. In submarines, in 1929—a submarine only has a life of 10 years—Great Britain will have 16 and Japan 46 built and building, allowing for one just lost and 22 projected. You cannot pit submarine against submarine, but that is an argument at any rate for destroyers to hunt down the enemy submarines and it is an argument for giving increased protection to our commerce and increased protection to convoys, if we have to resort to convoys. A destroyer's life is 12 years, and the figures here show the danger of not looking ahead to see the number that will fall obsolete in different years. In 1929, with the two we are going to build, we shall have 122 and Japan will have 91. In 1930 some 68 of them will be over age, so that whereas we will have 175 destroyers in 1928 within the age limit, in 1932 we shall only have 10. It may be said that we could reconstruct these destroyers, but there comes a time when it is not worth while to re-engine and reconstruct vessels, and when it becomes much greater economy to build new ones.

The problem in connection with employment which occurs to one is that we ought to average our programmes over different years rather than have big programmes in one year. I remember urging that argument in 1908, when we only laid down two armoured ships late in the year, so that they were really 1909 ships. I pointed out that it was quite certain we were going to have a scare in 1909. The Committee may say that I knew that, because I was going to take part in engineering the scare in 1909. That was true; I did take part in it, and I am proud of it. That was the year in which we had the agitation over "Dreadnoughts," when we said: "We want eight, and we won't wait." We laid down eight in that year. It would have-been very much better if in the year of unemployment, 1908, when prices were cheap in shipbuilding, we had laid down some of those eight ships to relieve unemployment, because we should have got the ships much cheaper. That is an argument for averaging our programme.

It has, I think, been rightly put forward from the Liberal Benches that the argument about replacements is not a valid argument. It is only valid to some extent in regard to the cruisers, because of the lengthy trade routes we have to control. There never has been any real relation between replacements and ships struck off. I will take a number of years, I acknowledge they are selected years, and I find that for the two years 1889–90, 36 protected cruisers were laid down and two struck off. In 1899 14 armoured ships were laid down and none struck off. In the three years 1904–6 we laid down no protected cruisers and we struck off 41. In the five years 1905–9 we laid down 43 destroyers and struck off 10. Now we are going to replace 16 "Counties" by five cruisers. This proves my argument that there is no real relation between replacements and striking off. The real test is relative strength, and we must judge that relative strength with due regard to the 80,000 miles of trade routes which we have to defend.

So long as this Government make necessary provision for the maintenance of our relative strength, I shall support them in all their efforts to bring about disarmament. I hope they will press forward in the efforts for disarmament, and I wish they would get to work at once about the Conference. The House of Representatives and the Senate in the United States of America have again and again passed resolutions asking for a Conference. They embodied that view in their Appropriation Act of last year, and struck out 16 cruisers which were proposed to be built. They also made a request to the President that he should ask the Powers of Europe, and also Japan, to join in a general Conference to bring about the limitation of cruisers, destroyers, submarines and aircraft. I hope that this House and the Government of the day will respond to that invitation as soon as possible.

We are always delighted to hear the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, because he is one of the greatest naval experts that we have, and he is always interesting. His retrospect as to what happened during the last 20 years was very interesting, but we need not go so far into retrospect. We must ask ourselves what is the position now and what is it going to be. His reference to the condition of the Navy during the period of the Liberal Government was a little beyond the mark, because the position of the Navy in the year 1914 was as powerful as ever it has been in the history of the world. The result of that was that we won the War, we beat Germany. It was due to the British Navy under a Liberal Government that we succeeded in doing that and in defending our Empire. I say that, in order to clear away the cobwebs woven by my hon. and gallant Friend.

I do not agree with the statement of one of my hon. Friends on this side, that too much money is being spent on the Navy. If hon. Members read the statement of the First Lord, they will see that the word "economy" is written throughout it. The sum of £2,200,000 is saved, and if hon. Members will go through the details they will see that there is scarcely a Vote that is not decreased. The present Government have done their utmost to try to economise so that they will only need to demand from the country the lowest possible sum for the Navy, consistent with safety. No one will find fault with them for that. I thank them sincerely for wishing and intending to keep up the Navy at the strength at which it ought to be maintained as our great means of national defence. If, as I hope, the Labour Government intend in future to maintain the Navy at its proper relative strength and, without being extravagant, to make up feel that we are safe in our homes, I shall support them in that direction.

A very important change has come over the condition of affairs consequent upon the Washington Treaty. For 350 years the Navy of Great Britain held the mastery of the sea, but as a result of the Washington Conference we have to share that honour with America. We obtained the mastery of the seas by maintaining the condition of the Navy at its proper relative strength, and by promoting trade and commerce throughout the world. In fact, our great commercial position is very largely due to the British Navy, and to the fact that we controlled the seas in early days. That we have lost the mastery of the sea is clear, but we must maintain the position of our Navy so that it will enable us to feel safe.

As one who has taken a deep interest in this subject, I contend that we have now reached the lowest point consistent with safety, and I hope there will be no attempt to get below that point. It may be argued that we have not got below the lowest point. I congratulate the Government upon their decision to lay down the five cruisers. Whatever views we hold in this House, we should never consider the Navy from a party point of view. We should consider it from the national point of view. If there are any people in this House or outside it who think that they are going to gain popularity by lowering the Navy, they make a very great mistake. My opinion is that the people of this country, on the whole, look forward to this House to maintain the strength of the Navy in an absolutely safe condition.

Let us remember the great area that we have to protect, and let us remember the number of cruisers that we have in existence. Reference has been made to Coronel. If the course of action that was taken later on had been taken at the time, and we had sent out more powerful ships to Coronel, the disaster at Coronel would never have happened. We felt that we were too weak in our home situation to spare ships of the powerful type that we afterwards sent out to fight the German cruisers in the South Seas. I am pleased that we have a Government in office which intends to maintain the integrity, the honour and the success of our Navy. I cannot believe that any responsible Government could at any time take a course which would put us in any danger.

It seems to me that we have discussed over and over again the condition of the Navy generally. I want to raise a question with reference to the dockyards. Hon. Members will not be surprised if there is a reference to the principal dockyard port. As one of the representatives of a dockyard constituency, I am permitted to say something about dockyards. I understood from my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary that he intimated on the last occasion that there would be a discharge of some men in the dockyards at the end of this month, and from the sympathy I know he has shown to the dockyards, I am very much in hope that perhaps that view may be altered, and some means may be found by which those discharges need not take place. I am not going to repeat the view of the hon. Member for Plymouth in setting out details of work. That might be done, but I am going to make a suggestion to my hon. Friend, and I wonder whether it can be carried out. I suppose, of the whole of the dockyards, only about two-thirds are engaged up to their capacity. That means there is a large amount of room which could be utilised for other purposes. For a long time we have suggested to the Admiralty that they should consider the possibility of undertaking some commercial work in the dockyards. I wonder if it would be possible for the Admiralty to set up a committee now to consider this particular question.

A remark which was made by the Prime Minister a short time ago gives me food for thought, and may give food for thought to others present here. The Prime Minister in the early part of the Session drew attention to the danger and the expense which are incurred by rings and trusts, and he said that if these rings and trusts, which are interfering so seriously with the cost of material and so creating unemployment and prevent- ing trade, could not otherwise be reduced, he would break them. I want to know in what way the Prime Minister contemplates breaking these rings and trusts. If I might make a suggestion to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, no better place could be found for breaking the rings and the trusts than in the dockyards of this country. Is it possible that could be done, and could the matter be taken into consideration? It would not be in restraint of trade, but the very opposite; it was to encourage trade. If by these means the rings and trusts were broken and the prices of materials reduced, then a great deal more work and unemployment would be found for the various people in this country. I am very grateful to the Government once again for the way in which they are looking after this question of the Navy.

The Noble Lady who represents the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) was kind enough to do her own work and the work of the hon. Member for Devonport, and as he was unable to be present, her remarks were very useful. She gave us some very interesting details about her view of the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is, of course, not practical politics, and each of us reads it in his own way and according to his own point of view. We have to remember that the author of the Sermon on the Mount also told us to render unto Caesar the things that were Cæsar's. The Noble Lady said she was pleased with the Washington Agreement. There is no doubt we are all satisfied with that agreement. The Noble Lady herself had every reason to be pleased, because she is a citizen of that great country, the United States. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is not so."] It is so. At any rate that agreement has placed our Navy in a position of inferiority to that of the United States. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), and also the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins), told us that in 1914 the Navy was prepared. Well, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was of that opinion. In January, 1914, he said that was the moment in which we might reduce our armaments. Once Mr. Gladstone in this House said that you could not put your finger on the map at any one place at which Austria had benefited. Could any right hon. Gentleman or hon. Gentleman in this House put his finger on any single point in which the Navy was prepared in 1914, except in men? We had the finest men, fortunately for us, in the world, but on every other point this country was unprepared.

This country was unprepared at Portsmouth and at Rosyth. It was unprepared in regard to the Admirals in charge of the fleets, who had to be changed at the last moment. It was unprepared at Coronel when Von Spee met our ships and sank them. He had two of the finest ships in the world, and we had only the poor old "Good Hope." With her antiquated 9.2 guns how could she meet a salvo of 16.8's? One ship was run on shore in the fog to act as a land fort. Another could neither run away nor fight. She was sunk by a German cruiser and the Germans got away because our guns could not reach them. It was the same with the "Cressey" and with the "Pathfinder," not a single one of them was ready. There were no mines and no minesweepers. Our shells did not burst like the German shells. We had no range-finders compared with what the Germans had. We had no night signalling compared with theirs. Our high explosive was in two magazines. One of the principal German ships had 50 small magazines, so that she was safe; and their ammunition was all packed in metal cases, while ours was not. The consequence was the flash lighted our magazines, and we lost some of our finest ships in consequence. We were not prepared, and if we were not prepared then what is going to happen now under this present Government? [ Interruption .] The Government proposed a minimum of light cruisers, torpedo boats, and submarines. Eight light cruisers were the minimun, and they proposed to give us five only. They were going to reduce the present complement although that complement is not one man too large. We are not only cutting down the Navy, but we are cutting down the dockyards. Not a single Government dockyard had a dock that could take any of the big ships at the present moment. It is true private yards can do so, because they are started as companies and made to pay. The Government looks on our dockyards merely as places at which to waste money. We have no slip in any Royal dockyard that can build a big ship, and no attempt apparently has been made by this Government to give us that slip. I believe that the last Government was about to give a second slip at Portsmouth and possibly at Devonport, so that in a matter of emergency, if it were necessary to build two cruisers, or one cruiser and one battleship, we should not have to go to the private yard for those ships.

The right hon. Member for South Molton rather sneered at the fact that certain ships had been seven and eight years building at Devonport and Plymouth. May I remind the Committee that the record for the quickest building of a battleship was made in Portsmouth Dockyard when Lord Fisher, great man as he was, held office. These ships to which reference has been made have, of course, been intentionally delayed. There was no particular need for them when the War finished, and they have been kept on, I am ready to admit, at a waste of money. It would have been cheaper to scrap them at the end of the War than to have continued them. The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth told us something about widows' pensions, and regretted that the last Government had done nothing. That is not my information. The last Government agreed to establish contributory pensions for the Navy. The Admiralty accepted their view and gave all possible assistance to those men who were pushing it forward, the actuaries and accountants having given their opinion, and now I understand from the present Government that they are not going to establish these pensions, but rather that they are giving pensions for all widows which will be non-contributory. If I were to receive a pension I should want it to be on a contributory basis. I should not want charity. The people in the Navy do not want charity. They prefer the contributory system to anything given with the slightest taint of charity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Lord Rodney!"] That is hardly charity. It is not my business to enter into that. After the late war we gave one Admiral £100,000 and another £50,000. If we had had no money then we might have given one £4,000 a year and another £2,000 a year, which is what they gave in the case of Rodney. You can of course repudiate your debt, but at a cost of more than £42,000. I understand that in the case of pensioned officers there is to be a cut of 5½ per cent. Does that mean on the increase of pension or on the whole pension plus the increase? It sounds a small matter, but in the case of a small pension it is a very important matter. I do not think that the Admiralty have any idea of cutting the original pension even by 5½ per cent., but merely intend to cut the increase in the re-assessment. The men of course cannot have their pay or pensions' cut because those are definite promises. The idea that in future you can have two men working alongside each other, doing the same class of work, with one in receipt of more money than the other is ridiculous. I do not think that any responsible Government would suggest that we should do it. Hon. Members opposite know the feelings of workmen on these matters. You cannot get men to do the same work except for equal wages, more especially when the work is a work of danger.

My colleague the hon. Member for Central Portsmouth (Sir T. Bramsdon) spoke about discharges from the dockyards. Although we sit on opposite sides of the House we are at one in our regard not only for the Navy but for the dockyards also, for we know that you can have no Navy without good dockyards, and of course you will have no dockyards if you have not got a Navy. Apparently it is suggested that 1,500 men should be brought out of the dockyards. Some remarks were made by my hon. Friend opposite to the effect that when he went into the matter he found that if you took a man out of the dockyard the cost saved would be £a, but when you put him on the dole there would be a loss of £b, and he said that the difference between a and b is exceedingly small. If that is the fact, is it not much better to keep those men at honest work rather than to put them on the dole? The dole is a most unsatisfactory business. Nobody is satisfied with it, especially in view of the way in which it is carried through. It pauperises the men, and lowers their personal standard and their pride. Far better to keep on the dockyard work. There is lots of work in the dockyards for those men in the coming year. If these men are to be put out, I would like to know how many of them are tradesmen and how many are labourers.

I should like to say a word now on the question of vocational training in the Navy. In many respects the Army has got advantage in this matter. The Army authorities allow the men to undergo training while they are still in the Army, while the Navy has taken a different view, and they say to pensioned officers that they shall not undergo their vocational training while they are in the Service. I think that that is very unfair. In the last 12 months of their time they should, if possible, be allowed to undergo a two months' or even a three months' course, so that they shall not be shot out into the world, as soon as they leave the Service, without any immediate prospect of employment, because although these are skilled men in their own trade, they are not tradesmen from the point of view of the trade union, and if they go looking for employment, an employer does not want a man ready to do anything—you will find most Navy men ready to do anything—but he wants a man who can do one particular thing, and for that almost every man requires vocational training.

I would be very glad to hear something on the subject from the Government. I asked a question about it recently and I was told that such a thing was impossible. I trust it is not impossible, and that the senior Service will be allowed to follow the line taken by the junior Service, at any rate to the extent of providing vocational training in the last year of service. I want to say something about a class of men in the dockyard, in regard to whose case I would be glad if the Civil Lord would see me or receive a small deputation. It relates to the difference between the hired and the established men. In November, 1919, the question or bonus was raised, and the hired men think that they were rather unfairly dealt with. No hired man was supposed to get the full 75 per cent. bonus, but as a matter of fact, owing to an understandable mistake at the Admiralty—there was a rush of work at that time—a certain number of hired men got the 75 per cent., and others received only 40 per cent. It annoys those who did not get the 75 per cent. to think that by a mistake at the Admiralty they did not benefit equally with others.

I am not a Member for a dockyard, nor am I a naval expert. I hope, nevertheless, that I may be allowed to intervene for a few minutes to draw attention to a matter which affects not only the honour of the Navy but the honour of the whole country. I wish to draw attention to the present state of affairs at Scapa Flow. That is a place the name of which a few years ago was in everyone's mouth, but to-day it is all but forgotten. I am sure that, if the facts were known, as they should be known throughout the country, the present state of affairs would be remedied. The Committee will remember that when the War broke out there was great difficulty in making Scapa Flow safe for our Fleet. Merchant ships were sunk in a great hurry to block the entrances. Those ships are now known as block ships. It may surprise many hon. Members to hear that the block ships are there to-day, and that the channels, which should be open to our merchant ships and fishing boats for navigation, are blocked.

The Admiralty were asked during the time of the Coalition Government, as during the time of the last Government, to remove sufficient of those ships to make the channels navigable, but the answers that were invariably given, and the answers that are given to-day, are rather astonishing. It is said, first, that it would cost money, and, secondly, that it would be impossible. I have never known the Admiralty, if it had its mind set on anything, allowing either of those reasons to get in the way. I am sure that the country would not hesitate to spend whatever might be necessary to remove those ships, which, if they were at the Thames mouth or in the Solent, would have been removed years ago. It is only because they are out of sight in Scapa Flow that they are left. We do not want them all moved, but only one or two. I will give the Admiralty credit for having partially removed one ship, and for promising to endeavour to remove it entirely. But that will not open the channel and make it navigable.

There is one ship known as the "Thames" lying in Holm Sound in the middle of the channel, and it is impossible for our mail boats and other craft to use that channel. On the south of the island, in Burray Water Sound, the removal of one ship would make the passage possible for fishing craft. The island of Burray used largely to subsist by the fishing carried on by its inhabitants. That has been stopped entirely. There has been no compensation paid to the fishermen. In Holm Sound the water flows at considerable speed, and it has been hampered and raised by the block ships until it has flowed over the land and has undermined roads. No compensation has been paid in respect of that damage. The Admiralty think, apparently, that because Scapa Flow is so far away it will be absolved from doing what I hold to be an obligation upon it, namely, to remove the obstructions which now prevent the people of the islands carrying on their ordinary avocations. I am certain that if the people of this country could see the blocking of the channels, and could see how easy it would be to remove sufficient ships to make the channels navigable, the work would be done and done at once. I am making this appeal to-night because a special opportunity is offered. Members of the Committee are aware that a contract has been given to a firm to raise the ex-German Fleet, which was sunk in the Flow. That firm will have every appliance on the spot for raising ships and for dealing with obstructions. I appeal to the Admiralty to enter into negotiations with the firm to raise at least two of the ships and to make the channels navigable.

I have very little to say, because I consider that the question of the cruisers is satisfactorily settled, and the only point of great interest remaining is Singapore. That subject is reserved for the Report stage, and I will say nothing about it now. There are, however, one or two matters to which I would draw attention. This year the pay awarded in 1919 under the Jerram Award, so far as officers are concerned, is to be reviewed. I desire to point out that the officers of the Navy alone receive no marriage allowance; it is given to the other ratings, and it should be extended to the officers. It may be said that no definite promise has been made in the matter, but if promise there be, everyone would wish that it should be implemented. I do not know how the figure of the cost of living is going, but my suggestion is that, so far as married officers are concerned, they should not suffer, and should still continue to draw the pay that the Jerram Award gave them. I do not think the Admiralty would suffer very much. Such a concession-would be greatly appreciated by the officers. I only suggest that that exemption might be made in their favour.

I rather think it is proposed to make a fresh entry in the Navy for engine-room artificers, and some other ratings. It will be within the recollection of both the Parliamentary Secretary and the Civil Lord that there were reductions in 1923 which were forced upon the country on the question of economy. It is within my knowledge certainly that more than one, and I think I may say several of these young engine-room artificers have never succeeded in getting any further job. My recollection is that the Admiralty gave them a gratuity, but these young fellows could not go out in the world qualified, whatever their calling was, whether that of coppersmith, turner or fitter. I raised the point with the Admiralty then, and hoped something might result. I would ask that in such cases, those who are of good character, have passed their examinations and have failed to find anything, consideration should be given them if re-entry of engine-room artificers should be made. I have communicated with the Admiralty in regard to the sick berth staff, and I have no doubt they will give the matter consideration.

10.0 P.M.

I have had the honour to represent a dockyard constituency for many years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am proud of it. I do want the Admiralty to consider whether they could not do something to relieve the poverty that exists at the age of 60 and upwards. It is a peculiar position. Under the Admiralty everybody practically is retired at 60. There are certain cases where there may be extension for a year or two, but, broadly speaking, all employment for a man ceases at 60. There are comparatively few of them on the establishment and they therefore draw no pension. It is quite true that under the Superannuation Acts a gratuity dependent on service at 60 is made to these men, whom we know as hired men. That gratuity is £50 or £60, and does not go very far. What I would ask is that the Admiralty should consider some scheme of either keeping these men to a later age, or, if they do not see their way to do that, to give them a bigger gratuity so as to carry them to the old age pension. A great many die before they get to that age. It is one of the great sources of poverty in dockyard towns. Nobody will dispute that a man of 60 is not so good in the market as he was at an earlier age. People do not care so much to take into their service men who have very largely been worn out in other service. The result is we have a great deal of poverty, and I ask the Admiralty to consider whether they could not do something to extend the employment, or increase if possible the gratuity, or make it an annual or weekly payment, to carry them to the period when the old age pension comes into operation.

Then I would like the Admiralty to consider whether, in a like connection, they would consider the Superannuation Acts, and whether the time for review has not arrived. The original Act, I think, was passed in 1835, and although there have been amendments, there Las been no substantial increase, and that operates very hardly. For instance, a man who is discharged on a reduction of hands gets a gratuity after seven years' service. If, on the other hand, he is invalided, he cannot receive a gratuity until he has served for the longer period of 16 years, and if they have served 15 years and so many months, the months are always given against them, and their service taken as 15 years. It does affect very considerably their gratuities. I hope both the Parliamentary Secretary and the Civil Lord will give kindly consideration to these points.

It has been repeatedly said in this House that the Government's policy in relation to the Navy is to create a service of such efficiency as will counter-balance any reasonable numerical reduction that might be made either under the Washington Treaty or as an economical necessity. If that be their policy, I venture to suggest that they would receive practically the whole support of the House. But are the Government carrying out this policy? In order that a service should be efficient, every department in that service must be efficient also. For instance, it would be ludicrous to have the latest type of gun without skilled and highly trained gunners. It would be ludicrous to have the fastest and most modern ships and poor navigating officers. But supposing you have good guns and good navigating officers, your obligation is not finished there. The Admiralty must see that the officers and men are fit to perform their duties. The efficiency of the Navy, like every other sphere in life, primarily depends upon the health of the Service. From the statement issued by the First Lord of the Admiralty, one would imagine all was well with the Naval Medical Service. I take it as such, because he hardly makes any reference at all to the Naval Medical Service, except to say that the number of medical establishments has been reduced by two, namely, that the Yokohama Hospital was destroyed in the earthquake, and the Royal Marine Infirmary was closed down owing to the transfer of the Royal Marine Division. That is the only reference made to the Royal Naval Medical Service, and yet there is a shortage of medical officers in the Service. There is such a shortage that at this moment the Admiralty could not man all the ships with medical officers if they were sent to sea.

I claim that this is a very serious position and one that calls for immediate inquiry. At the end of January this year the shortage of medical officers was 39 below the complement required to maintain an efficient service. Moreover, more men are retiring than those entering the Service. There is a cause for this shortage and for doctors refusing to enter the Service. The cause is that the Admiralty have broken faith with their medical officers. That is a serious statement to make, but it is nevertheless true. As a result of the new regulations which have come into force on the 1st of January, 1920, medical officers who joined the Service under the distinct understanding that they would be retired at the age of 55 unless previously promoted, were compulsorily retired at the age of 50 without any compensation whatsoever. This retirement, moreover, was retrospective. As a matter of fact, every medical officer in the Service at the time the new regulations came out lost five years of his highest rate of pay and five years further chance of promotion to higher rank. The actual monetary loss to each medical officer amounted in five years to £2,200. This new regulation is much harder for an officer within a few months of retirement than it is for an officer who has 10 years to run, but the effect of making the new regulation retrospective is that it is a breach of faith with the junior officers as well as with the senior officers.

This is one of the chief causes of medical officers not entering the Navy. Those medical men who joined the Service before the new regulations came into force joined under a certain understanding. If the Admiralty bring out new regulations and make those new regulations retrospective, I maintain that it is not, from the medical officers point of view, a lucrative service; in fact, it is a very precarious service to enter, and one that I quite agree with the British Medical Association they cannot recommend young doctors to enter. I would suggest that the traditions of the Admiralty and of the Navy are such that one would expect that that service would be the last in the world to break their word either to men or officers. The British Medical Association repeatedly brought the full facts before the Admiralty, but the Admiralty seemed to think that there would be plenty of new candidates forthcoming when the output of the medical schools was at its height. But they have been very much disappointed. In view of this serious shortage, I maintain that the Navy cannot be efficient unless the health of the service is fully maintained. The process of retiring the senior officers at one end of the list, when there is no one coming in at the other end, cannot continue indefinitely.

I would like to make one or two suggestions as to how they can induce young medical officers just leaving hospital to enter the service. First of all, there is the question of remuneration. That must be one of the first considerations. If you compare the differences in pay between the Royal Navy and the Royal Army Medical Corps, I am sure you will be rather surprised. A surgeon-lieutenant in the Royal Navy receives £438 per year. A lieutenant joining the Royal Army Medical Corps gets £555 a year. But there is another striking difference between the two Services, which is that the Admiralty still adhere to its old-fashioned idea of not recognising maternity. A married surgeon-lieutenant joining the Royal Army Medical Corps gets £617 a year, but a married officer joining the Navy gets only £438 a year. I am sure every doctor is very patriotic, but he has also got to look to the welfare of his wife and children. Perhaps the Admiralty believe in birth control: it looks like it.

If they are putting everything in the way of medical officers getting married, it looks as if they have some ulterior motive. Perhaps they do not like medical officers, but what we have to consider is the efficiency of the Navy.

Again, supposing a naval medical officer is sent abroad to China, for example, the Admiralty make no allowances to bring out his wife and family to him. Another reason why medical men will not join the Service is because of the want of opportunities for study. I had the honour during the War of being a medical officer in the Navy, and I found that, when one was not coming in contact with people on shore, one was very apt to get stale in his work. Every medical officer must keep himself absolutely up to date. I suggest to the Admiralty that they should give more frequent opportunities for post-graduate study, and it would be an inducement to many medical men to join the Navy. There is such a system in connection with the Army. Again, there are the conditions of the naval medical officer at sea. For example, in the case of a court-martial, the naval medical officer is the only officer on board who is not allowed to sit on that Court, even if one of his own assistants is up for trial. I suggest that is not quite in order. I see no reason to suppose that the mentality of the medical officer as regards justice is not just as high as the mentality of officers in any other branch of the Navy, and, in some cases, I maintain it is even higher. I have also had this experience. A medical man, feeling very invigorated, wishes to join the Navy and he goes to the Admiralty offices in Whitehall. The people there say to him, "No. This is not where you join the Navy; you must go to Victoria Street" He goes to Victoria Street, and on the top floor of an ordinary block of offices is the naval medical officers' Department, where the Director-General sits. That shows that the Admiralty are not fully alive to the needs of the Service in this respect.

They have made the medical service into a thing apart, and it does not enhance the prestige of the Department to find its offices on the top of a block of business premises, and medical officers are perfectly right in objecting to that system. If a man joins the Service and has the honour of wearing the King's uniform, he should at least feel that he belongs to a Department which has proper offices, and he should not be sent to Victoria Street and made to climb up a lot of stairs. I know what it is, because I, myself, when I first went there, walked by mistake into a money-lender's office. The floor below the medical officers' Department is occupied by a money-lender. Perhaps they have put the money-lender's office there because of the inadequacy of the pay of the medical officers. I must admit that there again there seem to be signs of an ulterior motive. I do not like to make accusations, but as an old medical officer in the Navy I feel that medical men, on the whole, are not being treated fairly, and the fact that there are 39 medical officers less than the proper complement, and that more are retiring than there are entering, shows conclusively that there must be something seriously wrong with the medical branch at the Admiralty.

When the British Medical Association have sent down deputations time after time to bring these facts before the Admiralty, they have refused us; they would not see us. There is something in it. [ Laughter .] Supposing the Fleet were ordered out to-morrow, and it went out with 39 medical men short, and 39 ships could not have medical officers on board, it would not be a laughing matter. Therefore, I urge on the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to make the fullest inquiry into the deplorable position of the medical officers in the Navy.

I cannot follow the hon. Member for Stoke Newington (Dr. Spero) in regard to medical matters, hut he is perfectly right in saying that the shortage of medical officers in the Navy is a very serious problem, and it is one to which I would ask the Admiralty to give their serious attention. As regards the Navy Estimates, first of all, in the First Lord's statement, he alludes to the accepted standard of strength of the Royal Navy and its state of efficiency, and claims that his Estimates leave it in a state of efficiency. I would ask the representatives of the Admiralty, what is the standard of strength of the Navy to-day? We had no statement on that point the other day from the Parliamentary Secretary who brought in the Estimates. With regard to the efficiency, in a paragraph later on we find the complements of ships on the active list of the Royal Navy alluded to, and it is stated that 1,800 men will be found by reducing the existing peace complements of the ships. The First Lord has just previously said that he is maintaining the efficiency of the Navy, but how can he make that claim when he is positively reducing the complements of ships on active service? You cannot do it. The only way in which you can do it is at the expense of efficiency.

If you reduce the complements of men, it simply means that you cannot man the central portions of the armament; you have to reduce the number of men employed in turrets and on guns. It means that exercises lose half their value, it means that reserve fleets have to be maintained and with only skeleton crews, and anybody who has served in a reserve ship, as I have, will know very well what it means to serve with a crew on a skeleton basis. There are not enough men in the reserve ships to-day to keep those ships clean. If you still further reduce the complements of the ships, it will simply mean a direct blow at that efficiency. The Admiralty cannot possibly maintain for one moment the claim that they are maintaining the Navy in a state of efficiency if they do that.

I would refer now to the pay of the Navy, which has already been alluded to. In the Estimates there is the statement that an allowance has been made for a reduction in officers' pay. There is no statement whatever about the pay of the men. Why are you going to reduce the officers' pay, and make no statement whatever about the men's pay? Is it that you are proposing secretly to reduce the men of the lower deck at a later stage? In an interruption the hon. Gentleman opposite said in regard to this that officers' pay was to be reduced by 5½ per cent. and no more, and, as far as the ratings were concerned, those who were in the Navy now would not be affected. I should like to point out to the Committee the inference to that, which is that the men now in the Navy are not to be affected, but the men who come in later are to have their pay reduced. Then you will have two men employed on board ship alongside each other, doing identically the same work at different rates of pay. I would put it to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite: they belong to the great trade unions of this country. Is that a principle of which they approve? [HON. MEMBBES: "No!"] I would ask the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether I am correct in my interpretation of what he means?

With regard to the officers, I agree with the Admiralty. A readjustment of officers' pay can be justified, is perhaps justified, but I would put it to this House that the only men in any service, the only officer or man in any service, who is not paid a marriage allowance, whose marriage is not recognised, is the naval officer. The sailor gets a marriage allowance. The man on the lower deck gets it. The officers and men in the Army get it. The officers and men in the Air Force get it. Why are you discriminating against the officers of the Navy? It is unfair. I do not believe it meets the wishes of the people of this country. I do not believe it meets the wishes of this House; and I beg the Admiralty, when they are considering a revision of pay, to bear in mind the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook, who asked them to see whether they could not remedy this rank injustice—for it is nothing else!—towards the naval officer. Only one other word so that the House may appreciate the marriage allowance hardship. It is laid down in the Regulations that the seamen, marines, naval reservists when in training, have marriage ratings, but this is denied the naval officer.

One other question concerning the general discussion. I see in the statement when, introducing the Estimates the hon. Gentleman opposite referred to the oil fuel reserve. I appeal to the House and to hon. Members opposite who have served in the Navy: they will know what I mean when I say that here again is a direct blow at the efficiency of the Navy. You cannot maintain for one moment your claim that you are maintaining the efficiency of the Navy if you are cutting down the oil, and for this reason: that it disregards completely the lessons of the late war. One of those lessons was that mobility is essential to naval strategy and tactics. It is no use having a Fleet if you deny that Fleet mobility to move about. It is likewise a direct blow at efficiency, because unless you can exercise your ships at the speeds they will have to work in war you can- not expect officers and men to be particularly expert in handling those ships. Therefore I ask the House to seriously consider this question, and I beg hon. and gallant Members who know that what I am saying is perfectly true to go further into this question, and I hope the representative of the Admiralty will be able to say exactly what the Admiralty are doing in regard to this important question of oil fuel.

Although I disagreed with the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken on a naval question recently, I quite agree with what he has said to the Committee on this occasion. What he has said about fuel is absolutely true, and last year I know the Fleet was almost immobilised for lack of fuel in certain places abroad. I know the difficulty is that all this kind of provision must appear in the Estimates every year owing to our system of finance, because we have to show all this expenditure, but I think such questions as the provision of oil fuel and graving docks might be solved by means of a loan spread over a number of years. I think while we have a Navy it is our duty to keep it efficient.

With regard to the pay of the men, and the proposed reduction of officers' pay, I am extremely disappointed with the policy of the Labour Government on this question. Soon after the present Government took office I was talking to a number of naval friends of mine, and they thought the skies were going to drop because a Labour Government had come into office. I may point out that one thing the late Government were going to do was to reduce the pay of the officers of the Navy, but I told my naval friends that they might be quite sure the Labour Government would not do that and they took some courage. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) I can understand proposing a reduction in the pay of officers, but in view of the increase in the cost of living, and the many disabilities under which naval officers suffered I do not think any reduction in their pay is justified. The pay of a lieutenant in the Navy is only about £365 a year, and this is the pay for the man who may have done many years of service, while a second-lieutenant in the Army, who is junior to him in rank, draws considerably more pay, and a captain in the Army—which really is the corresponding rank—is drawing £517 a year.

I think there is no justification for this 5 per cent. reduction in the officers' pay, and, as has been said by the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), and by the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon), the officers of the Navy suffer a great injustice by not having any marriage allowance. These men are picked men mentally and physically, and it is in the national interest at the present time, things being as they are, that they should marry young. In certain banks and in certain professions it is deliberately arranged that men should not get the chance of marrying young, but that is an example which the Government should not follow. They should encourage early marriages among what is really the flower of the manhood of the country, and in order that that may be done there should be marriage allowances, as in the case of the Army and the Air Force. It is not just that the Navy should be left out, especially as the naval officer may be sent off at any moment to a distant station, and he has no allowance with which he can provide for his wife and family. It means that homes have to be broken up, and much sadness follows. I am glad to say, however, that I know of no profession in which there is such a large number of happy marriages as in the Navy. Whether that is because they are so frequently sent away I do not know.

I am also somewhat disappointed—I am sorry to have to criticise so much, but this is the time for criticism, in Supply—at the proposal to reduce the grant for education by £11,000. The President of the Board of Education is not pursuing that sort of policy. I have served in a ship the captain of which was very sympathetic towards education, and he helped in the formation of classes and gave all sorts of facilities; and it was extraordinary how many classes were formed among the men and petty officers for mutual education. The sailor goes to sea very early in life, and often loses the chances of education that the man on shore has; and such classes are well kept up, and the men come to them purely for the love of learning. It is not right that a Labour Government should reduce the education grant for the Navy. I admit that these are the Estimates of a Conservative Government, but this matter ought to be remedied in next year's Estimates.

There is another matter to which I hope my hon. Friend will be able to attend—I do not make any complaint that he has not had time to do so before—and that is the question of the fees charged for cadets at the Naval College. I apologise to the Committee, first of all for having addressed it twice to-day—though I could not help the Air Estimates and the Navy Estimates coming on on the same day, and I am interested in both; and also for bringing this matter up a second time. I had some criticisms to offer to the Under-Secretary of State for Air on this matter, and I must now repeat them to the representatives of the Admiralty. At the present moment there are King's cadetships for the sons of officers who were killed in the War, and they are received at practically no fees at all. That is perfectly right, but at the same time the majority of the cadetships carry with them Very heavy fees that have to be met by the parents. At Dartmouth, at the present time, the contribution that has to be made is £150 a year. In 10 per cent. of the entries this can be reduced by £40, in 10 per cent. it can be reduced by £70, and in 10 per cent. by £100, but, nevertheless, 70 per cent. of the cadets at Dartmouth have to find something like £150 a year, and in addition there are allowances for books, instruments, uniform, outfit, sports, pocket money, and all the rest. That means that a certain class of boy, who otherwise may be most suitable for the Navy, is prevented from entering as an officer because his parents are poor. That is not democratic.

This is not a class question, for many of the so-called naval families, where fathers and sons have gone into the Navy, are prevented to-day, by the alterations in conditions, from sending their sons into the Service, and what the Navy is getting are the sons of a certain rich class, who come from families which, very often, are without any tradition of public service. I think the Government might take this matter in hand. I think for a start they at any rate might provide the cost of the necessary instruments, books, outfit and uniform, and as soon as possible they should really settle the question of sweeping away these fees altogether. I believe in the French and American Navies practically no fees at all are charged, and no one suggests that they do not get a very good class of officer in both those Navies. I commend these suggestions to the hon. Gentleman and I hope they will be sympathetically considered. I have not touched on any of the large questions of policy because this is not the time. If the Labour Government would tackle these three questions of the marriage allowance, the stopping of all reduction in officers' pay and democratising the system of entry to Dartmouth they will create great satisfaction in very large classes of the community.

I have no cause whatever to complain of the tone and nature of the criticism which has been brought to hear upon the Estimates. I was rather impressed by the very serious indictment which might have been brought against my predecessors' in listening to what the Noble Lady the Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor) had to say about some of the conditions obtaining in the dockyards and in regard to the accommodation provided for the men who work there, but it ought to be pointed out that all questions concerning the amenities of the workmen can be and are dealt with through the Industrial Council, as the Civil Lord can testify. The question of the new gate at the North Yard was raised on the Industrial Council and was opposed by the Department on the ground that there was not sufficient justification for it and that it would mean additional police and a number of other charges. But I promise that I will have the matter looked into again, to see whether or not it is possible to meet the point. Then I think I ought to enter a gentle protest at some of the suggestions that have been made that unfair pressure is brought to bear upon Members of the Government by certain officials of the Admiralty. It is unfair to make attacks in a place like this on people who are unable to defend themselves. Any policy that we adopt is not due to any pressure or threats of resignation, as has been suggested. I have not heard anything of the sort. The Government takes sole responsibility for anything it initiates or has taken over from its predecessors in office. I think that ought to be made quite clear.

The hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) made some attack, in a curiously constructed proposition of his own, in which he sought to show that the present Estimates are considerably higher than those which were brought before the House in 1922–3. I am afraid he had me quite out of my depth, for I was unable to follow the reasoning he advanced. As a matter of fact, he is not correct in his facts. The only true comparison is in gross expenditure, and the Appropriations-in-Aid for the two years were higher than they will be in the following year. We have to remember that the actual expenditure in 1922–3 omitting war charges was approximately £54,000,000 for effective services. In the forthcoming year the gross expenditure, omitting the War charges, is estimated at £51,466,000. Then we must remember that we are unable to live on our stocks to the same extent as two years ago, and this will result in additional expenditure on account of naval and victualling stores, etc., of about £337,000. The actual saving on the gross expenditure this year as against the suggested increase brought forward by the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) is £2,871,000. Further, it has to be remembered that the expenditure on new construction as foreshadowed in these Estimates is considerably larger than in 1922–23. I submit that that effectively answers his criticism on that point.

I have here the Navy Estimates for 1924–5. The actual expenditure for 1922–23 is about £57,500,000. The true test is to deduct the non-effective expenditure and the War charges. The statement does not show what the War charges were for that year. I may have been mistaken, but my figures were, according to the 1922–23 Estimates, that the net expenditure, that is the money required to be found by the taxpayer, deducting the charges I have mentioned, was £46,350,000 and for the present Estimate £47,625,000.

If the hon. Member will look at the answer I have just given he will find that he is wrong in his premises. The only true comparison is in the gross expenditure, as, appropriations-in-aid two years ago were far higher than they will be in the forthcoming year. The hon. Member will get his actual expenditure from the figures I have given. In 1922–23 the expenditure was approximately £54,000,000 for the effective services, if you omit the War charges. The point raised by the hon. Member for West Walthamstow (Mr. McEntee) is a new point and I will have inquiries made into the suggestion. The hon. Member for Central Portsmouth (Sir T. Bramsdon) made some interesting suggestions with regard to work that might be undertaken of a commercial character, with a view of breaking some of the rings. I understood that the work was not to be of a naval character but was in connection with some other schemes. I promise him that that very interesting suggestion shall be fully explored to see whether it is possible to give effect to it. The hon. Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) gave us a very interesting excursion into history with regard to a number of naval matters, and he, like the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) raised the question of the reduction of 5j per cent. in officers' salaries. I might, at the same time, deal with the question of the pay of the ratings. The reduction in the pay of the officers is not quite so serious as it looks. This is an agreement between the officers themselves and the Admiralty for a reduction of 20 per cent. This 5½ per cent. is part of the 20 per cent. The officers have no grievance, because it is merely carrying out an agreement which the Admiralty have entered into with them. Supplementing the statement which I made in an interruption the other day in the speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) with respect to the pay of the ratings, I am very happy to say that the proposition has been accepted that so far as the ratings are concerned the reduction shall be only in regard to new enlistments. There is to be no reduction in regard to present savings. There will be no reduction, either in their present pay or on promotion as ratings. They will continue without change in any way. I hope it will not mean that we shall have different rates of pay, but that matter is now under consideration.

I want to be quite clear. Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the Admiralty are considering the enlisting of men at lower rates of pay to do the same work of men now borne on the books of the ships of the Royal Navy?

No, what I am trying to convey to the Noble Lord—I am afraid not very effectively—is that the Admiralty are considering the whole question of whether men shall be enlisted at lower rates or at the rates now obtaining. No decision has yet been arrived at. Another point that was raised by the hon. Member for North Portsmouth was that of the reduction in the pensions of officers. That reduction is 5½ per cent. on the whole pension, not on the increase granted in 1919. That was laid down in 1919, and is well known. The hon. Member also raised the point about vocational training. I endeavoured to deal with that point in my opening statement on Tuesday. I pointed out then that it was proposed to institute at home ports a system of vocational training suitable to various branches in the Naval Service, the cost being defrayed by men under instruction supplemented from a Service fund, and that arrangements were made for the men to attend at the municipal technical schools in those ports where the courses appeared to be suitable. Also instructions have been sent out to Commanders-in-Chief at foreign stations authorising them to put in hand similar schemes. Preference is given to men who are within 12 months of completing their service. Facilities are also extended to men invalided from the Service, provided they can complete the course within a year of their discharge. Hon. Members will see that we are endeavouring to meet them. The hon. and learned Member for Gillingham (Sir G. Hohler) raised a question with regard to the marriage allowance. The beet I can say at the moment is that that is under consideration, with a view to the adoption of a uniform system which will apply to the Air Force, the Army and the Navy. For the moment it is impossible to make any statement in regard to that. The point was raised about bringing artificers back. I will look into it, and will write to the hon. Member on the matter.

I can only say in regard to the question raised about the Superannuation Acts that the matter will be considered with a view to seeing whether anything can be done to meet the position of those men of 60 years of age, but I can make no promise beyond that consideration will be given to the matter. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton) raised a matter about which we have had some correspondence, namely, the blocking of the waterway at Scapa Flow. This matter has been considered by the Admiralty, and it is contended that a sufficient navigation channel has already been opened. It is thought that any attempt to raise the remaining ships would probably render things very much worse. The question of compensation is not one that belongs to the Admiralty. The people concerned are open to apply to the War Compensation Court, but the Admiralty has no power to pay compensation in a matter of this kind.

The hon. Member for Stoke Newington (Dr. Spero) referred to the question of medical officers serving in the Navy. I gather that he spoke with the support of the medical generally, as well as that of members of that profession in this House. The hon. Member is probably not aware that deputation from the British Medical Association has been received by the Admiralty on this point, and the arguments in his speech are a recapitulation of the points put forward by that deputation. The whole matter is being gone into, and I hope to reply to the deputation before long. But I ought to say this: The naval pay is £430 a year cash, while the Army pay is less. The naval medical officer is also given lodgings and rations, and so he is no worse off in this respect.

Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the Admiralty received a deputation regarding the terms given to senior surgeons retiring?

As I understand, all the points raised by the hon. Gentleman here were gone into by the representatives of the British Medical Association, but the hon. Member was not aware of that.

On this point, may I say that I had the pleasure of seeing the Secretary of the British Medical Association this morning. The Admiralty, since 1919, have been asked year after year to receive deputations regarding the retirement of the senior surgeon commanders, and they have refused to receive such deputations. During this year they received a deputation from the British Medical Association with regard to the shortage of medical men in the service, but they have refused to receive this other deputation.

Full information on all the points which the hon. Member has brought before the Committee, including that to which he has just referred, has been brought before the Admiralty by a deputation of the British Medical Association, and I am sure that he will be gratified to know that they have moved somewhat more quickly than they expected. I think that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull is a little mistaken in regard to the expenditure on education. We are spending a little more on education this year, but there has been some saving owing to increased fees received from cadets and the reduction in officers' pay. The other point to which he referred, as to assistance to cadets, is being sympathetically considered. I have endeavoured to meet all the points raised, but I promise that I will read the report of this discussion, and if there is any point that I have missed I will try to answer it in writing or in some other way. Now that we have had a pretty, good discussion, I hope that the House will be willing to come to a decision straight away.

I had on the Paper a Motion to reduce Vote I by £100, in order to raise the question of the three cruisers which have been dropped by the Government—a most important question. But as the whole of the time has been taken up with the general discussion I shall not detain the Committee very long. [ Interruption .] Hon. Members on the Government back benches weary our ears with speeches on the abolition of the Army, and we allow them to do so without interruption, but when I want to draw attention to something which I think is essential in the interests of the British Navy, hon. Members opposite apparently have no notion of discipline.

What I want from the Government is this: On Tuesday I raised the question of the three extra cruisers. [ Interruption .] I want from the Government some statement of the reasons which caused them to drop those three cruisers from the original Estimates, [ Interruption .]

Is the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) in order in making persistent interruptions?

I must call the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that he must keep order.

The original plan, as shown by the former First Lord, was that in 10 year there would be 52 cruisers built. That is an average rat of five a year, with two over. The late First Lord was going to build not only the quota of five this year, but three over, that is what I call the two extra ones, and one more, and he was going to do that, in the words of the Civil Lord the other night, not simply because of unemployment, but in view of the unemployment—[ Interruption ]—I gather that hon. Members opposite do not care a button about unemployment. It is what I expected of them. At the General Election the party above the Gangway did put forward some sort of proposal, and so did we. We tried, and what the country thinks of the relative merits may be best tested by the number of votes received by the Liberal at Westminster. The country does not like people who do not try. I want to ask the Civil Lord, or someone who can answer on behalf of the Government—anybody—I know the whole Front Bench are as big a collection of land-lubbers as ever was seen—

Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to use an expression like that regarding His Majesty's Government?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman has said anything I need call upon him to withdraw.

If any Member on the Front Bench will get up and deny the, statement, I will withdraw. I put it to the Government that the reason cannot be the financial cost. The only extra expenditure this year for those three cruisers would be about £350,000, unless I am incorrectly informed. The state of unemployment, as we know, is very, very serious. It is most essential, as the Prime Minister told us the other day, that the skill of our craftsmen should be kept up, and I think that the need for a strong Navy is as great as ever it was. I would remind the Government that it is not enough when you are dealing with cruisers to say Japan has so many, France has so many, America has so many, and we have as many, and more, because the British Navy is more than a mere counterbalance to the navies of other countries. The Navy is the only counterpoise we have to the enormous armies of the Continent. During the last War the winning factor was the British Navy. It was the British Navy and no other which brought the Germans to their knees. I asked the Government to inform the Committee why they dropped those three cruisers which were thought necessary by the former Board of Admiralty upon the advice, as I have no doubt at all, of the same experts who prompted the deliberations of other Governments.

The position I should like to put to the Government is this: By 1929 Japan will have eight cruisers with 8-inch guns. Unless you have a similar number of cruisers it means that in the event of any trouble with Japan, which everybody hopes will not arise, we will have to send some of our existing cruisers against those of Japan. Our cruisers have to-day 7·5-inch guns and 6-inch guns. I should like the Committee to realise the difference between cruisers having 6-inch guns and those having 8-inch guns. I do not believe the Committee realises that the Motion proposed by hon. Members below the Gangway opposite was practically an attempt to murder British sailors. [ Interruption .]

I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the words of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that the Motion from this side was "an attempt to murder British sailors." We resent that very much. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]

The hon. Member's expression was not used in reference to any hon. Gentleman in the Committee. [ Interrruption .]

Had I attributed that intention to any hon. Member personally, I would withdraw at once. I attributed to a policy they advocated an inevitable result, and I certainly do not withdraw.

On the point of Order. In the last Parliament that was precisely the issue which was raised. On that occasion the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) referred to a right hon. Gentleman then sitting on this side of the House as a "murderer" and he explained that he applied the term to the policy which that right hon. Gentleman had supported by his vote in the House. As a matter of fact, I voted the other way on this question of the cruisers, but I strongly resent this accusation against hon. Members sitting here.

On the occasion referred to, the hon. Member for Bridgeton singled out an individual, but the hon. and gallant Member opposite just now referred to the Liberal party—to the whole crowd. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

As far as my recollection goes, on the occasion referred to the remark was directed to an individual. The hon. and gallant Member for (Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) says be does not make this statement with reference to any individual.

May I draw your attention, Sir, to the actual words used by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. They were: "The Motion made by hon. Gentlemen opposite was an attempt to murder British sailors." That, I submit, is out of order, and should be withdrawn.

If those were the exact words uttered, I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should withdraw them. [HON. MEMBERS: "They were not!"]

Hon. Members are not giving the hon. and gallant Gentleman an opportunity to withdraw.

I have already stated that if I named any special Member or any person, I would naturally withdraw. What I said was that if hon. Members opposite below the gangway advocated a policy which could only have the result of causing British sailors to be murdered, they should realise the consequences of the policy they advocated.

I allege that the words used by the hon. and gallant Gentleman were the following: "The Motion made by hon. Gentlemen opposite was an attempt to murder British sailors." I submit that those words are out of order, and should be specifically withdrawn.

Surely, Sir, this is a question of a Motion and a Motion is an expression of policy. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman's remark relates only to an expression of policy, it is no reflection on any hon. Member. My hon. and gallant Friend is perfectly in Order.

In the last Parliament when an incident of a similar character occurred, a right hon. Gentleman who was then on the Government-Front Bench and who was I think, Minister of Health, took a prominent part in the discussion as to the suspension of Members then going on. He suggested that if the hon. Member for Bridgeton applied the term to Members collectively as a party, it would be accepted by the House, and the hon. Member would not be expelled. That was what was then stated—that Mr. Speaker would have been prepared to accept that explanation.

If the words used by the hon. and. gallant Member for Uxbridge have been correctly quoted by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), I think the hon. and gallant Member should withdraw them.

I will withdraw everything I said, and will any this: If the policy advocated by the hon. Members opposite below the Gangway be followed, they will realise that that policy can result in nothing else but the inevitable murder of British sailors.

Will the hon. and gallant Member explain how that can happen?

I will prove it. I said that if, as possibly might happen—[ Interruption .]

I would like to call the attention of the hon. Members below the Gangway to the fact that we are not likely to make much progress if we have these repeated interruptions.

In order to prove my point, I would remind the Committee that Japan, in 1929, will have-eight cruisers with 8-inch guns, and unless we have eight cruisers built this year, we should not have completed by this country by 1929 an equal number to be sent against Japan.

Well, that is my opinion, and I think the hon. and gallant Member will find that it is: right. In the event, therefore, of the unfortunate occurrence of any outbreak of. hostilities between the two countries, we should have to send against Japanese-cruisers, with 8-inch guns, cruisers with 6-inch guns. Let me take the actual fighting value of those two classes. The maximum range of a 6-inch gun in a modern cruiser is 16,000 yards and of an 8-inch gun 32,000 yards. The weight of projectile of the 8-inch gun is 250 lb. and of the 6-inch gun 100 lb. The penetration; of the 8-inch gun is exactly 100 per cent. more than that of the 6-inch gun. The bursting effect of the 8-inch gun is exactly ten times that of the 6-inch gun.

I would like hon. Members to realise what would be the effect of sending a ship armed with 6-inch guns against a ship armed with 8-inch guns. It would be nothing less, to my mind, than absolute murder. We had two very good examples during the late war. We had the example of Admiral Cradock's squadron, the "Good Hope" and the "Monmouth," against the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau," where there were absolutely identical conditions. The "Good Hope" had 6-inch guns and the "Gneisau" had 8·2-inch guns.

I meant that the "Monmouth" was armed with 6-inch guns. The "Good Hope" had two 9·2-inch guns and 16 6-inch guns, against, I think, eight 8·2-inch guns on each of the others, the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau." The "Good Hope" and the "Monmouth" were sunk with the loss of every man on board; the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau" had, I think, four men wounded in both ships, and as a result of that Lord Fisher sent the "Indomitable" and the "Inflexible" out to meet the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau." They came upon them and the other smaller cruisers, whose names I forget, at the Falkland Islands. The "Indomitable" and the "Inflexible" had 12-inch guns against the 8·2-inch guns of the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau," and the picture was exactly the same, only in our favour this time, instead of in the Germans favour. The "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisau" were sunk with the loss of practically every person on board, except that there were, I believe, about 50 people picked up by our own ships, and three or four men were wounded on board our ships. I think, therefore, if right hon. Gentlemen will really realise the effect of technical improvements that are always taking place in naval vessels they will realise that they must keep up the technical equipment of our own navy if we are to meet foreign navies on equal grounds. It is useless to say we have got so many ships and the enemy have got so many ships. That is absolutely and perfectly useless unless you are technically capable of meeting the enemy ships on equal terms. The present Govt. are running a grave risk. They are not doing their duty to the country in not explaining carefully to the country the risk they are running in not building these eight cruisers. I perfectly realise that they have come in on a perfectly peaceful and pacific policy. Let us have our peaceful and pacific policy by all means, but let us at the same time have a navy such that we do not mind if the other people do not have a pacific policy.

Doubtless the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down is a patriotic and devoted man. We on this side do not in the least question his great interest in this matter or his great desire faithfully to serve the country by the speech he has made. At the same time he will allow me to say that in the judgment of many people here he does not strengthen his arguments by the sort of language that he has used. If I were to call the hon. and gallant Gentleman a coward, I would not be correct, but we should think it a cowardly act if we thought it right that eight cruisers should be laid down in the interests of the country if we refrained from moving an Amendment to that effect. How does it happen that hon. Gentlemen who begin in such lofty tones never see to what their arguments lead? One thing which the hon. and gallant Gentleman might observe is: that he has entirely smashed the argument that the laying down of these cruisers is not an attempt to increase the strength of the Navy. Of course it is. He knows that perfectly well.

We, at any rate, understand that those who moved the Amendment the other night were right when they said that that was the real position. Therefore, the question was whether that particular increase was called for and justified; while at the same time it was flummery and nonsense to pretend it was nothing more than mere replacement. I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He is a devoted supporter of the Conservative party. He has, no doubt very properly, an admiration for the patriotism and rectitude of the late Prime Minister and of the late First Lord of the Admiralty. I should be sorry indeed to think that anyone in this House felt that the policy recommended to the House by the First Lord, and adopted by the late Government, deserved to be qualified as even contingently murderous! Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciate that when last May the late First Lord of the Admiralty presented the Navy Estimates speaking, as he always does, with a high sense of public duty and in terms of great consideration for all his critics, he did not propose the laying down of these cruisers, and they had the information that the Japanese Government were going to include a cruiser with 8-inch guns. It is quite true the Japanese Government have laid down a ship which may have an 8-inch gun and yet the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spark-brook did not come under the hon. and gallant Member's heated condemnation. Those are things which ought to be taken into consideration. I am talking about the position in May, 1923.

Are we to understand that when the Conservative party met at Plymouth in October last year it was not known to so great an authority as the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite that the Japanese contemplated a cruiser with 8-inch guns?

Our cruiser programme was eight cruisers, and the present Government have cut it down to five.

If this were a question of the technicalities of naval matters I would immediately acknowledge his superior authority. What happened when the Leader of the Unionist party spoke at Plymouth was that he said if it had not been for unemployment his Government might well have contemplated not laying down these cruisers for two years. Was that an example of contingent murder? The truth is that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Uxbridge, speaking with the greatest devotion to his country and the greatest interest in national defence, imagines that he and his friends have some peculiar prerogative to use these rebukes and some special prerogative in regard to national defence. I venture to think that there are many hon. Gentlemen opposite who heard my speech earlier in this debate will agree with me when I say that I spoke from a plain sense of patriotism and duty, and I think in that contention I am supported by a very large body of opinion in this country. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite does not strengthen his argument by talking in this ridiculous way. I protest that an hon. and gallant Gentleman should get up here and simply because he has had associations and special knowledge with regard to the Navy should have the impudence to suggest that there are colleagues of his in this House—some of whom he must know quite well—who because they differ from him on a point of policy deserve to be dealt with in such terms.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) is deeply distressed that any strong language should be used with reference to anything that has been done by his party, but possibly some of us, thinking of occasions when our policy has been described as one which would reduce the pensions of old age (pensioners, or starve the children—I am not sure that even the murder of children was not suggested—may not take that too seriously. I want, however, to get away from that, and to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, while dealing, as he did to-night and also the other night, with what I may call the dialectics of this situation—namely, the contrast between employment and replacement, between replacement and strength, between what was said by the late Prime Minister in one speech or in another by myself—has never dealt at all with the real question, which is, what is the minimum need of this country in the years that lie ahead of us? Whether by replacement we mean replacement at what was the standard of strength when ships were built 15 years ago, or, as common sense would seem to suggest, replacement by the same kind of ships as those with which other powers are replacing their Fleets, that question is not the one that I want to examine. The real question is as to what our cruiser position is going to be from the point of view of the immense interests which we have to defend.

I do not propose to argue that case again. It was stated very ably by more than one hon. Member on this side of the Committee, and it was stated very ably and lucidly by the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher), and also by the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair); but, on the basis of the situation thus explained, I do feel that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Storry-Deans) is entitled to some answer to the question which he asked, in a rather hilarious House, namely, on what ground have the Government cut down the programme which we laid before the House? Hon. Members on the other side have attacked the programme that has been put forward on the ground that it is too ambitious; we regard it as inadequate. It is perfectly true that in mentioning, in a speech last year, the actual numbers of vessels of different sorts, I mentioned the plain fact that the number of our cruisers was greater than that of the United States; but I think in the same speech I drew the attention of the House to the fact that, in the reduction which had been forced upon us by the need for economy, we had gone as far as it was possible to go, and that I did not foresee a further reduction of Estimates, but the probability that we should be faced with new commitments: and one of the very things I had in my mind, when I dwelt on the fact that we had reached the limit, was the knowledge that we should soon be faced by a programme of cruiser construction, which we had put off to the last possible moment, but which, at any rate as far as the five cruisers were concerned, whatever the financial situation, whatever the unemployment situation, we should have felt compelled to undertake this year.

The programme, however, which we put forward, and which I justified in the House as being necessary in every item, was not only a programme of eight cruisers, but included a number of other vessels, all of which were needed; and I also pointed out, from the point of view of our future requirements during the next few years, the very heavy need for the replacement of destroyers in the years from 1926 onwards, to which an hon. Member opposite has referred. All these causes made it very important, from the point of view of Admiralty efficiency and the even spread of our work, that we should bring the whole of that programme, not only the eight cruisers but the other items, right forward at the very beginning of the year under a token Vote so as to get the decks cleared as far as possible for future consideration, and—I see absolutely no inconsistency between the two things—at the same time giving as much employment as possible in the very industry where that employment is most needed. The case was stated on naval needs, Admiralty needs, from the point of view of a soundly distributed programme, giving out contracts on the best possible terms, and also from the point of view of the broad interest of the country in keeping men employed at skilled work at this moment rather than keeping them alive on the dole, and having these same men free for other work later on. It was on all these grounds that the programme was urged, and it would be interesting to know on what grounds the three cruisers and (he other items, submarines, the destroyer depot ship, urgently needed, the submarine depot ship, urgently needed, minelayer and aircraft-carrier have been dropped. I think the Committee is entitled to some explanation, not only of the reason, which is very fairly stated as against hon. Members on that side, for building at least five cruisers but also of the reasons for not building the whole of our programme.

I had no intention of being discourteous and not replying to the points raised by the hon. Member opposite and I readily respond to the request of the right hon. Gentleman. In reply to a Supplementary Question put by him some time ago, I said the whole matter would be one for consideration by the Government. The position at present is that the Government, in examining the scheme which was adumbrated by the last Government, came to the conclusion that at any rate for our present needs, and to replace wastage and contingent wastage, they would be meeting all that by laying down five cruisers, and that the whole of the other suggestions which have been brought forward as to the naval needs of the country would be matter for further consideration, and no doubt would be brought for discussion before the House. That is the answer I give to the right hon. Gentleman and those who have asked what has led to the decision of the Government.

Can the hon. Gentleman hold out the hope that the results of that consideration will be communicated to the House at a fairly early date?

I am not satisfied with that answer, and I want to ask the hon. Gentleman if, when he and his Department and the Government have given this consideration, they will offer us a day to discuss it?

I am not in a position to do that. I am in the hands of the Committee. I have answered the right hon. Gentleman.

I hope the Government are satisfied with the illustration they have received of the old proverb about giving an inch and having an ell demanded. They have given way to the party opposite over the construction of the five cruisers, and the result is that the other side, not satisfied with this diminished programme, are demanding that the whole of their unemployment relief programme of eight cruisers and various submarines destroyers, aircraft carriers and other naval equipment, should be carried out in full. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery) has put his finger on the crux of the whole question—the question of minimum needs. It seemed to me that the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney), who addressed some insulting remarks to these benches, and the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Lieut-Commander Fletcher), were putting he matter at the wrong time in considering the question of 1929. The question of 1929 must be considered, but we are bound to consider first what is the situation to-day. The Japanese programme, to which so much reference has been made, has one remarkable factor about it, and that is that it is not a new programme. It is part of the 1920 programme that was sanctioned by the Japanese Diet at a time when Japan was, in her view, threatened by the naval construction programme of America. Since that date there has been the Conference at Washington. There has been a limitation of capital ships, but the building of cruisers was not limited. Voluntarily, the Japanese have limited their building of cruisers. Their programme was a programme of 12 light cruisers, but so far the Japanese have not completed any of that programme. They have five laid down, one of which has been seriously damaged, and they have not been pushing the construction very fast. Seven of the keels have not been laid down at all. There is only one 8-inch gun ship in the Japanese programme. [HON. MEMBEES: "Divide!"] I can assure hon. Members who are interrupting me that I have a good deal more to say. Reference has been made to the intentions of America. The American Admiralty, like the British Admiralty, would like to lay down eight of these light cruisers of 10,000 tons, but up to now they have not received the sanction of Congress to do so. In the case of Italy two are projected, but they have not yet been sanctioned. As far as the French Government is concerned, it has not yet reached the stage of an official Admiralty programme, although there has been a certain amount of Press talk about the necessity for having such cruisers.

Our programme is an accelerated programme. It can be put into operation as soon as the Consolidated Fund Bill has been passed. The keels would be laid down immediately. We can trust the Dockyard members to see to that. Although a medium size cruiser equipped with 8-inch guns has been laid down by the Japanese, not one of the 10,000 ton cruisers has yet been laid down. By laying down these ships we are beginning the race in armaments. It was a very serious decision for the Government to take. The hon. Member for Uxbridge spoke about the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisenau." That raises another very important matter. In 1931—[ Interruptions .] If hon. Members opposite can refer to 1929 why cannot I refer to 1931? In 1931 the Washington Treaty will come up for reconsideration. These new light cruisers though of rather less tonnage than the "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau," carry a more powerful gun than either of those ships, and have a far greater, turn of speed. By 1931, if these new programmes are carried out, there will be twenty or thirty of these super light cruisers in the Navies of the world. The experience of the battle of the Falkland Islands was that to deal with ships like the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisenau" you need battle cruisers. [ Interruptions .] I know at this time of night the Committee tends to become a little hilarious When the Treaty of Washington comes up for reconsideration the Admiralty experts will certainly advise that it is not in the interests of the Admiralties of the various countries to agree to a limitation of battle cruisers.

If my hon. Friend had any knowledge of the battle of the Falklands, he would not ask that very foolish question. I hope that the Government will consider this point of view, because I am certain that they are sincerely anxious, should they be in office, to support reconsideration of the Washington Treaty, and to support any other Government that wants an extension of that Treaty. If this competition in super light cruisers is brought to a head now and allowed to develop it will be impossible to extend the Washington Treaty in 1931, because the Admiralty staff will tell the Government, and they will be right, that the only effective way of dealing with super light cruisers is by means of battle cruisers. The hon. and gallant Member opposite will agree with this.

What I said was not that we want ships of greater capacity and greater power, but that we want merely the men in our vessels to have an equal chance with the others.

The hon. and gallant Member told us how in the battle of Coronel the small cruisers went down before the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisenau," and that it was necessary for the Admiralty to send out Admiral Sturdee with the "Inflexible" and the "Indomitable" and a flotilla of light cruisers to deal with them. There is not the least good in pretending something else. That is what he said. If the hon. and gallant 'Member were to discuss this matter privately, and not as a party question, he would admit that the only effective way of dealing with these new super light cruisers will be by means of battle cruisers. If there is going to be a recrudescence of battle cruiser building, apart from the enormous economic cost, let it be remembered that, when the Washington Conference met, the United States was planning a fleet of six battle cruisers of 43,000 tons, mounting each 16-inch guns with a speed of 34 knots, and at the same time the Japanese were laying down four battle cruisers of 46,000 tons, mounting 18-inch guns, while this country had built the "Hood" and was contemplating other super "Hoods." If it is not too late to appeal to the Government to reconsider this question, I would do so. My noble and gallant Friend asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what is the present conception of the Government of the strength of the Navy, and I noticed that the hon. Gentleman was very careful not to reply.

12 M.

I should like to know what the Labour Government considers to be the proper strength of the Navy. Do they realise all the implications of this policy? Do they realise that by acting on the argument as to employing labour, by building these light cruisers, they will make it inevitable that the Japanese should proceed with their programme? They could apply the same reasoning as the Prime Minister applied to Singapore—"We should like to make an agreement with you. If you like to suspend your construction of cruisers we will suspend the construction of our cruisers." It is just as reasonable to go to them and say, "If you do not build super-cruisers we will not do so." Why will not the Government adopt that suggestion before they lay down these keels? The action taken will certainly make it necessary for Japan to carry out her programme. In that event we may take it for granted that the United States Congress will authorise the laying down of their eight light cruisers, and France and Italy will follow. Will not the Government, even now, reconsider their decision, approach the Japanese, and make this gesture to them in the same way as in relation to Singapore, rather than take this country into a new race of naval armaments, which may render the whole work of the Washington Conference completely abortive?

I wish to give notice to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty that he has not heard the last of this question of the eight cruisers. It will come up again on Vote 8. It may be that the Government consider they have provided for the minimum needs of the Navy for the moment, but they have grievously disappointed the hopes of those who expected some little relief from their difficulties in the authorised programme. On Vote 8 opportunity will be taken to debate the question again.

Question put, and agreed to.

Wages, Etc., of Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £14,246,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Wages, &c. of Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £3,080,000. be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad, including the cost of Superintendence, Purchase of Sites, Grants in Aid, and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next (24th March).

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Resolved,

"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1923, the sum of £10 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. William Graham .]

Resolved,

"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, the sum of £5,765,729 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. William Graham .]

Resolved,

"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 19251 the sum of £162,278,000" be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. William Graham .]

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

Board of Education Scheme (Female Orphan Asylum, Etc.) Confirmation Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 ( Confirmation of Scheme ) and 2 ( Short Title ) agreed to.

Schedule ( Scheme approved and certified by the Board of Education under the Charitable Trusts Acts , 1853 to 1894, in the matter of the Female Orphan Asylum, the National Orphan Home and the Hans Town School of Industry ).

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule stand part of the Bill."

I understand that hon. Members opposite would like a brief explanation of this Bill. It is to amalgamate certain charities that date from the middle of the 18th century. One is called the National Orphan Asylum, dating from about the middle of the 18th century: the second is the National Orphan Home, dating from the middle of the 19th century; and the third is the Hans Town School of Industry, which was founded a little later. Their purpose was, amongst other things, to provide for the education of deserted and friendless girls. These institutions existed quite separately for some time, but after the War it was found that on account of the increase of prices it was impossible to maintain them in that way. It became necessary, therefore, to formulate an amalgamation scheme, and this Bill is intended to give effect to that scheme.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed .

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening , Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order .

Adjourned at Eleven minutes after Twelve o'Clock.