House of Commons
Monday, March 24, 1924
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Birkenhead Corporation (Ferries) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Queen's Ferry Bridge Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Grampian Electricity Supply Bill,
To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Bombay Mills (Wages' Dispute)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether steps have been taken to alter the law in India which enables employers to withhold six weeks' wages from employés; and can he state how many deaths have been registered through starvation during the recent lock-out in Bombay?
The payment of wages in India is not regulated by law. In the Bombay mills it is customary to pay wages in the middle of the month following that in which they are earned, but, owing to the present disturbances, there was some delay in the payment of January wages. The amounts due have now, I understand, been disbursed. The Bombay Government, who have organised relief measures, report that they have not heard of any deaths from starvation among the mill hands or their dependants.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the wages were actually held back, because the men refused to work at the 1914 wages, and will he not say that the Government have a grave responsibility while these things are actually taking place?
Is it not a fact that the President of the millowners at Bombay is by name Saklatvala?
What has that got to do with the question?
In reply to the first supplementary question, it is not the fact that the employés were asked to work at the 1914 wages. I should say, however, that it is very regrettable that the wages should have been held back in the way they were.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is aware that Bombay workers have been locked out because they refuse to accept wages on the 1914 basis; and that employers have withheld six weeks' wages with the result that deaths have been registered through starvation; and will he assure the House that his Department has taken all available steps to bring the responsible employers to justice and to prevent any recurrence of these actions?
The cause of the dispute was the decision of the millowners that the results of 1923 did not justify the payment of a bonus. This question was referred by the Government of Bombay to a Committee composed of the Chief Justice of Bombay and two independent gentlemen which reported unanimously in favour of the millowners. No proposal was made to reduce wages which, as explained in a reply given to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). on the 17th March, are substantially higher than those paid in 1914. As regards the second part of the question. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to-day to his previous question.
Is it not the case that these questions give a totally wrong impression of the state of affairs in Bombay?
Is it the case that any deaths have occurred through starvation?
I replied to that in the first answer—no.
Will the Under-Secretary consider the advisability of the appointment of a representative committee to go into the whole question of industrial relationships in India, and with a view of considering the relationships at the present time?
Finance Bill
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the complete rejection of the whole of the Finance Bill by the Indian Legislative Assembly, the Governor-General in Council will now take steps for the complete restoration of the rejected grants?
The Governor-General in Council has restored the demands under the heads Customs, Taxes on Income, Opium and Salt, but has accepted other reductions made by the Legislative Assembly, namely, Rs.25 lakhs under Railways and Rs.100 under Forests.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can make any statement as to the position of affairs arising out of the recent defeat of the Government of India in the Legislative Assembly over the Finance Bill, and of the intention of the Viceroy to certify the legislation required to carry on the Administration?
The Legislative Assembly having refused on the 17th instant by a majority vote to take the Finance Bill into consideration, motion for leave to introduce the Bill as recommended by the Governor-General, in accordance with the provisions of Section 67B of the Government of India Act, was made in the Assembly on the 18th instant. The rate for the Salt Tax proposed in the recommended Bill was Rs.1¼d. per maund, the rate in force before the enhancement last year. The Assembly refused leave to introduce the Bill, which is now to be considered by the Council of State, where, I understand, the discussion is fixed for to-day.
Processions (Punjab)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the Gurdwara Committee are proposing to send two more jathas of 500 Akalis each to Nabha; and, in view of the political and provocative nature of these processions, can he see his way to prevent the starting, of these processions which are bound to cause further disturbances?
I have been informed officially that another jatha of 1,000 is being sent, and that the question of possible measures to prevent further jathas has been under the consideration of the Governments in India. I think it is important also to lay stress on the fact that the arrival of the second large jatha at Nabha did not cause a disturbance. It was disposed of peaceably.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that each of these jathas follows a different route, and that the object of the jathas is to inflame the countryside along these routes?
Is it not a fact that when the hon. Gentleman describes these jathas as having been disposed of peaceably, he really means they have been peaceably passed into police cells?
Imperial Bank of India
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the number of branch offices opened by the Imperial Bank of India since the agreement with the Government of India came into force; and who determines the location of the branches?
Sixty-five, according to information that has reached me recently. The agreement with the Imperial Bank provides that of the one hundred branches to be opened within five years from the date of the agreement, the Government of India should be entitled to determine the location of one in every four, taking the same so far as feasible in the order of their opening.
Who determines the balance?
The Bank itself.
Constitution
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can make any further statement with respect to the adherence of the Government to the provisions of the India Act of 1919, postponing for 10 years any alteration of the constitution thereby established?
As I have already informed the House, His Majesty's Government adhere to the provisions of the Act of 1919, but I am doubtful whether those provisions will sustain the interpretation which the right hon. Gentleman seems to place upon them.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Joint Committee of Lords and Commons—
Speak up; we cannot hear a word you are saying.
On a point of Order. I must ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether I am not entitled to some sort of courtesy?
The hon. Member must not interrupt discourteously.
I have as good a right to ask them to speak up, as they have to ask us.
The hon. Member must not interrupt in a discourteous manner.
May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Joint Committee, upon whose Report this House accepted the Bill of 1919, said with reference to this very Clause 41, that
"In their opinion the Statutory Committee—"
On a point of Order. Is it in order to read anything during Questions?
The right hon. Gentleman is reading a quotation from a Report of a Committee of this House.
"In their opinion the Statutory Committee should not be appointed until the expiration of 10 years, and that no change of substance in the constitution, whether in the franchise or in the list of reserved subjects, or otherwise, should be made in the interval"—
and whether the hon. Gentleman has had that in view in making his answer?
That is so, but I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that one Parliament cannot bind its successors, and, if any fundamental change is made, of course, it would be made by Parliament.
Do I understand by "one Parliament cannot bind its successors" that the Government has under consideration an alteration of what the last Parliament has done?
No.
Then why say it?
Will the hon. Gentleman say clearly what he means by a reconsideration? Has the opinion of the Government altered in any way from the answer he gave in this House on the 10th March?
Ambush of Picket (Chagmalai)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information as to the ambushing of a picket from the 3/9th Jats near Chagmalai, resulting in the death of one British officer and two Indian soldiers and in the wounding of six Indian soldiers; and whether he is satisfied that the troops in this district are adequate to meet the demands upon them and to prevent isolated and unsupported detachments from being cut off?
No further details than those contained in the Press are available. Attempts of this nature are frequently being made by the unruly elements amongst the tribesmen of Waziristan. The fact that they are so rarely successful affords ample evidence of the adequacy of our troops in this district, and of their efficiency in dealing with the situation.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the great anxiety that is felt by the relatives of officers and men who are serving, and can he assure the House that the troops are adequate, and that isolated detachments will not be exposed to undue risks?
Royal Army Temperance Association
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Royal Army Temperance Association has been closed down in India; if so, what has become of its assets or, if this has not yet happened, is there such a project under consideration?
I am informed that the Governing Council of the Royal Army Temperance Association in India have decided to terminate at the end of the present financial year the existence of the association, the usefulness of which has been much restricted by recent changes, and to hand over the balance of its funds to the Commander-in-Chief for the benefit of Soldiers' Furlough Homes in India.
Having regard to the important change announced, could the hon. Gentleman lay any Papers, and can he say what intention the Government have to provide for the question of temperance in the Army in India?
I understand that this action has been taken as a result of the Report of Lord Esher's Committee, and that provisions have been made in that respect in other ways by the Young Men's Christian Association.
Opium Traffic
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the amount of opium shipped from India to Hong Kong and the Straits Settlements, respectively, in 1923; and what steps are being taken to prevent the smuggling of opium into China?
The only opium shipped from India to these two Colonies is that indented for by their respective Governments, which for 1923 amounted for Hong Kong to 240 and for the Straits Settlements to 2,100 chests of 140 lbs. each. Moreover, all of it was covered by certificates from the Governments of the importing countries, in the form prescribed by the League of Nations to the effect that the opium was required for legitimate purposes and its importation approved. Opium so consigned to the Governments of these Colonies cannot be smuggled into China before it has reached the Colonies.
What are the legitimate purposes embodied in the answer of the hon. Gentleman?
Political Prisoners
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Legislative Assembly against the advice of the Government, recommending the wholesale release of all political prisoners in India; and whether he can state what is the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to these cases?
I understand the hon. and gallant Member to refer to the resolution reported in the Press as having been carried on Thursday last for the repeal of Bengal Regulation III of 1818, and other special laws. My Noble Friend has received no representation from the Government of India on the subject of the resolution, and has no reason to doubt that they will suitably deal with it in the exercise of their discretion.
What do the Government mean by that? Can we not have some idea of what is the Government policy?
Questions
Palestine (Rutenburg Concession)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if His Majesty's present Government is satisfied that the Rutenburg concessionnaires have provided enough money to satisfy the terms of the concession; and, if not, will he recommend that the concession should be cancelled?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The second part does not, therefore, arise.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that £200,000 has been raised already, and what prospect is there of raising the balance?
As I informed the hon. Gentleman last week, the late Government were satisfied that the Rutenburg concessionaires met the requirements, and I have not thought it necessary to challenge their wisdom.
That means that the first part of my question is answered in the affirmative. Does it also mean that the present Government is also satisfied?
Hong Kong (Treatment of Children)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the official appointed to the position of secretary for Chinese affairs in Hong Kong is informed, prior to his appointment, that his duties will include the examination of girls as to their suitability to enter brothels, and then to pass them into the various classes of brothels in the Colony; whether this practice is peculiar to the Colony of Hong Kong; and, if not, in how many other British dependencies is it the practice to require British officials to issue passes for girls to become inmates of brothels?
I have no doubt that the official in question knew before his appointment of these duties, which, as I have already stated, are in this regard purely protective. It has been found necessary to give similar protection in the Malay Peninsula, but there is no other part of the Empire containing a large number of Chinese women requiring protection of this nature.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accept the view that it is a violation of British standards to expect British civil servants, not merely to take the oversight—as in this case—of 3,000 prostitutes, but of continually passing into these brothels young girls, and not merely passing them in, but of telling them the street and the house they are to go to, and—as I understand this document—the very floor they are to occupy; will he give the House a promise to look into the matter?
The hon. Gentleman knows that there is no more distasteful subject than this for any Member of any Government to deal with; he is also perhaps aware that I am meeting a deputation on this subject to-morrow. You cannot deal with a distasteful subject of this kind by question and answer. The Government are alive to the difficulties and dangers of the subject; we have to deal with it in a common-sense way.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is prepared to take steps to refuse recognition to the existence of brothels in Hong Kong and other parts of the British Crown Colonies as a step towards abolishing the international traffic in women and children?
I am not convinced that the suggested Measure would have the desired effect. The Governor of Hong Kong reported last June that there have been very few cases there of international traffic in girls for immoral purposes and that very careful precautions taken by the Secretary for Chinese Affairs and the police tend to check abuses of this description.
Nyasaland (Trans-Zambesi Railway Company)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present liability of Nyasaland for interest and sinking fund charges in connection with the guarantees given to the Trans Zambesi Railway Company?
The amount provided in the Nyasaland Estimates to meet the payments in question in the year 1923–24 was £13,023. The estimated amount for 1924–25 is £14,738.
American Consulate, Newcastle-On-Tyne
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state what steps have been taken to reopen the American Consulate at Newcastle-on-Tyne; and if these measures have been successful in removing the deadlock?
This matter continues to advance, and steps are being taken which it is hoped will lead to a satisfactory settlement very shortly now.
In consequence of the unsatisfactory answer to this question, and the answers to similar questions during the last 18 months, I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to the question on the adjournment, on the first night when the Eleven o'Clock Rule is not suspended.
China
British Trade Mark Rights
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is doing anything to protect the British trademark rights in China?
Everything possible will be done to protect the British interests affected, with the representatives of which His Majesty's Government are in close consultation.
Customs Duties
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a request from the Chinese Government to hold a preliminary conference to discuss matters relating to the increase of 2 per cent. in the Customs duties authorised in virtue of the Washington Treaty; and what is she policy of the British Government in respect of such request?
The request of the Chinese Government has only just been received by His Majesty's Government, and is now being considered.
Questions
Sudan (Cotton Growing)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the wording of the questions recently transmitted to the Sudan Government in regard to possible restrictions upon the marketing of cotton grown in the Gezereh district?
I would refer the hon. Member to the speech of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs during the Debate on the Trade Facilities Bill, on the 27th February, which contains all the information.
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the inquiries made of the Sudan Government through the British residency at Cairo include a suggestion for fixing a maximum price for cotton by which the Sudanese cultivators might be deprived of the right of realising from their labour the full benefits of the highest prices obtainable; and whether, even if that suggestion were agreed to by the Sudan Government, it would form part of the policy of the British Government?
The inquiries made of the Sudan Government did include the possibility of fixing maximum prices, in order to prevent cornering to the detriment of the British user and of the Sudan cultivator alike, but until the observations of the Sudan Government on these inquiries have been received, I cannot add anything to my reply to the hon. Member on the 17th instant.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question, as to whether even if the Sudan Government agreed to the fixing of a maximum price it would form part of the policy of the British Government?
We have asked for information, and until we get it, we cannot possibly consider the question.
Germany (French and Belgian Industrial Agreements)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the Government have taken to obtain information as to the negotiation of Franco German industrial agreements and to ensure that British industries shall not be prejudiced by or excluded from such arrangements?
His Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that any agreements of importance between the German industrials and the French and Belgian authorities have been withheld from them. The texts are subjected to the most careful examination from the point of view of their possible effect on British industries, and should British interests appear to be prejudiced His Majesty's Government would, of course, consider what steps they could properly take for their protection.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the continuance of the industrial agreements between French and Belgian and German firms in occupied territory?
On the assumption that the hon. Member refers to the agreements between German firms and the French and Belgium authorities in the Ruhr and Rhineland, I would refer him to the answer which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gave to the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Lloyd) on the 12th March.
Russia
League of Nations
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any understanding has been come to with Russia on the subject of her joining the-League of Nations?
The answer is in the negative.
Will the Prime Minister allow me to tell him—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] Is he aware that these ruffians have no intention of joining the League of Nations?
Bishops and Priests (Imprisonment)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in carrying out his undertakings to make representations to the Russian Soviet Government on behalf of Monsignor Cieplak and other Roman Catholic clergy now imprisoned in Russia on account of their faith, he will also make similar representations on behalf of the bishops and clergy of the Orthodox Church who are imprisoned and exiled; and whether he will include in such representations a request that the committee of the appeal for the London clergy now being organised in this country by the Bishop of Birmingham may be given facilities for conveying relief and money to those bishops and priests in Russia who are suffering persecution?
The answer I gave on the 17th covers the new point raised in this question. I would warn the House of the great delicacy of this matter, as, obviously, if Governments begin pursuing this policy of interference, it is capable of the widest and most intolerable extension. In reply to the second part of the question, should the Bishop of Birmingham's Committee ask me to approach the Soviet Government for special facilities, I will do so, but the granting or withholding of such facilities is entirely within the competence of that Government.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information of what is reported in the paper to-day, that Mon-signor Cieplak has been released?
I have only seen it in the paper: I hope it is true.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the attitude of the Soviet Government towards the Christian religion is improving?
I have on several occasions attempted to put questions connected with the administration of affairs in the Colonies and other parts of the Empire over which this House has no control. On one occasion I wanted to put a question in reference to prisoners in America, and I was not allowed to do so. May I ask, Sir, whether it is within the rules of the House to put down questions connected with the administrative affairs of a friendly country and in connection with a Government which is recognised by our Government?
I disallow all questions which deal with the internal administration of other countries.
With great respect, Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that this question most definitely deals with the internal administration of Russia?
This question relates to something which the Prime Minister has said, and to an appeal now being organised by the Bishop of Birmingham.
In the last Parliament I wanted to put two questions—one in reference to British prisoners in South Africa, and the other with reference to prisoners in America—and I was told that such questions could not be allowed. How is it that hon. Members are allowed to ask questions about foreigners in a friendly country, and not about our own people?
I do not think this question carries that implication.
Soviet Delegation
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the Mission from Russia to discuss outstanding questions with His Majesty's Government is expected to arrive in London; and whether he can state who will be the head of the Mission?
I understand that the Soviet delegation is expected to arrive in London in the first days of April. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if progress has been made with the arrangements for the Conference with the Soviet Government with respect to the many problems awaiting settlement between Russia and this country; and, if so, whether he can make any statement on the subject?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but the latter part cannot be dealt with in reply to a question.
Questions
Italy (Debt to Great Britain)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the grant by Italy of a loan to Poland and the projected grant of a similar loan to Rumania; and whether, in view of the financial strength of Italy revealed by these operations, His Majesty's Government intend to enter into negotiations with the Italian Government with a view to securing the funding or repayment of the debt owed by Italy to Great Britain?
I have seen reports of a loan by Italian banks to Poland, but have no information as to a loan to Rumania. As regards the question of the Allied debts, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the 12th February.
Is the country going for all time without repayment of its debts?
The hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is impossible to deal with a question of this kind until you have the report of the experts' on reparations—until it has been considered by the Reparation Commission, and decisions reached.
Passports
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is able to give a date for the introduction of a five-year passport for British nationals?
I am not yet in a position to give a definite date. The consent of the Governments of the Dominions and India has, however, now been obtained and the several foreign Governments are being communicated with.
If the replies are in the affirmative from the Dominions, why cannot the right hon. Gentleman put the Order into operation?
The replies are in the affirmative, but I cannot possibly put the Order into operation until I have communicated with the foreign Governments informing them of my intention.
Are we not entitled to have foreign passports for British Nationals at any time we like?
It is a matter of courtesy.
Montenegro (British Consul)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can yet make any announcement as to the appointment of a British consul in Montenegro; and whether, if no decision has been reached, he can expedite one?
The appointment has been decided on and the necessary arrangements are being made.
German Prisoners (Occupied Territory)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that the removal from German territory of German prisoners, condemned by the Allied courts-martial in German occupied territory, involves a serious additional punishment, especially in the case of prisoners ignorant of the language of the country to which they are sent; and whether, in view of this and to remove the widespread bitterness ensuing, the friendly offices of His Majesty's Government will be used to secure the return of all such prisoners to occupied German territory?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a number of political prisoners condemned by Allied courts-martial in German occupied territory are now confined in the French prison of Loos-les-Lille along with ordinary offenders against the French Civil Code, and that the majority of these prisoners are quite ignorant of the French language; and whether, seeing that imprisonment under such conditions involves a material increase in the severity of the punishment, he will make any representations which are open to him?
While I have no specific information as to the imprisonment of German political prisoners at Loos-les-Lille, I am aware that a number of such prisoners have been removed from German occupied territory. I have already pointed out in answering a previous question that there is no provision under the Treaty of Versailles which would warrant His Majesty's Government in making official representations to the French Government on the subject. The hon. Member may, however, rest assured that His Majesty's Government is not overlooking these matters.
Miners (Wages)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce immediate legislation in the form of a Miners Minimum Wage Bill in order to settle the present dispute in the coal-mining industry?
No, Sir. The policy of the Government is to use every effort to promote an industrial settlement. I am glad to say that, owing to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines, negotiations have been resumed, and a further meeting between the two sides has been arranged for Tuesday.
Are we to understand that the Prime Minister does not intend to introduce a Miners' Minimum Wage Bill?
I answered the question, and if my hon. Friend will look at the wording of the question, he will see it relates to the bringing in of a Bill, in order to settle the present dispute. I hope the present dispute will be settled by industrial methods.
In regard to the Miners' Minimum Wage Bill, will the Prime Minister tell us whether he intends to bring in that Bill or not?
My hon. Friend knows that I cannot possibly answer hypothetical questions in this House. The form of this question is, if no industrial settlement is possible, will legislation be introduced? I think we must wait until the circumstances arrive.
Can the Prime Minister tell us whether he or any Member of the Government has in fact given a conditional pledge to any party in the dispute that this Bill will be introduced?
We have given a conditional pledge.
Will he tell the House what is that pledge?
To whom has the Prime Minister given a conditional pledge?
:I understand that we have given a conditional pledge to this House.
Singapore Naval Base
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that only one dock at Singapore will take a 9,500-ton cruiser of the "Hawkins" class, apart altogether from the necessary accommodaion for battleships, battle cruisers, and aircraft carriers; and how long it will take to complete the scheme to enable the dockyard to deal with capital ships, modern cruisers, and aircraft carriers of the modern type?
I have been asked to reply. The King's Dock at Singapore owned by the Singapore Harbour Board is the only dock that would take a cruiser of the "Hawkins" class. This dock will also take any existing unbulged capital ship, the smaller aircraft carriers and the projected 10,000-ton cruisers. In this connection I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the late First Lord's reply of the 25th July to the Noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon). As regards the second part of the question, it would take nine years from the date orders were given to commence work before the naval base which it was proposed to construct in the Old Strait could deal with capital ships and aircraft carriers of the modern type.
Is it not a fact that coaling has proceeded at Singapore, and can still proceed there in spite of the abandonment of the scheme sanctioned by the late Government?
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that oil fuel is now being largely used?
Is it not a fact that Singapore is the second largest coaling station at the moment for Britain in the world?
It is true, as suggested, that our ships are able to re-fuel at Singapore.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary mean that it will take nine years to complete the base, assuming that the work be carried on as rapidly as possible?
Yes, that is so.
If this dock is used for the Navy, what is our Mercantile Marine going to to?
The answer is that they both use it now.
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the gravity of the issue in regard to time required for the completion of the Singapore project in the event of the Government being unsuccessful in those negotiations to which they have referred, whether he can state an approximate time by which the House can know whether the negotiations have or have not been successful?
The question does not show an appreciation of the nature of the problem. It is not a matter of time, but of circumstance.
Is it not the case that the longer it is before this dock is commenced, the longer it will be before it is finished, and has not the Parliamentary Secretary just said that it would take nine years to complete it?
The point is that, if the circumstances do not change, the loss of time is not a loss at all. Singapore becomes necessary when the conditions make it necessary.
asked the Prime Minister what are the main items, with their cost, contained in the £10,500,000 Estimate for new docks at Singapore; and whether provision for aeroplane and military defence is included in the Estimate?
I have been asked to reply, and, as the answer is somewhat long and contains many figures, I will, with the right hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The main items, with their cost, contained in the £10,500,000 Estimate for the new naval base at Singapore, are at follows:
£ ( a )) Works common to all departments, namely, wharf walls, basin, railways, roads, water supply, drains, dredging berth for floating dock, etc 5,100,000 ( b )) Graving dock 1,000,000 ( c )) Offices, residences, quarters, temporary hospital and miscellaneous general buildings 420,000 ( d )) Workshops 700,000 ( e )) Storehouses 470,000 ( f )) Magazines 610,000 ( g )) Contingencies 1,200,000 Vote 10, Works, Total 9,500,000 Vote 8, Machinery 1,000,000 Total £10,500,000
asked the Prime Minister whether any estimate has been prepared of the extent and cost of fortifications, the garrison and its annual cost, to defend Singapore against attack in the event of war in the East?
No, Sir. The revised scale of land armament, if the new docks were proceeded with, has not been laid down.
Has the question been considered of the amount of fortification that will be requisite to defend this new dock if it be created?
Safeguarding of Industries Act
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a committee to inquire into the working of the Safeguarding of Industries Act and the desirability of the extension of Part II of the Act?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the present uncertainty with regard to the extension of the Safeguarding of Industries Act is detrimental to industry and the continued employment of many workers; and whether he can now state the policy of the Government towards this Act?
The points mentioned by the hon. Members are being taken into consideration, but I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement if we put down a question a week hence?
Will the. Prime Minister, with respect to this question, consider the question of repealing the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
Does the right hon. Gentleman's nod in the affirmative mean that he intends to? [ Interruption .]
Perhaps hon. Members will look at the Clock, and then at the Order Paper.
I was looking at the Prime Minister.
Ex-Army Ranker Officers
asked the Prime Minister if he can now state the personnel of the Committee which is to inquire into the claim of the ex-Army ranker officers?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to announce the names of the Committee and the terms of reference upon the question of the ex-ranker officers?
asked the Prime Minister if he can communicate to the House the names of those who will form the tribunal to consider the claims of the pensioned ex-ranker officers; and if he can state the terms of reference?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the composition of, and terms of reference to, the Committee to consider the case of ex-ranker officers?
I regret there has been some delay in agreeing upon the terms of reference, and until these have been settled no one can be approached to serve on the Committee. I might be able to make an announcement on Wednesday.
May I ask what is the difficulty in settling the terms of reference in this very simple matter, which has already been considered for more than a week?
I do not know; that is what I am wondering. The terms of reference left me days ago.
In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman hoped last Tuesday to be able to make an early announcement, has he made any inquiries as to the reason of the delay?
The reason for the delay is the difficulty in agreeing upon the exact wording of the terms of reference.
Who is responsible for the delay?
Dock and Waterside Labour (Decasualisation) Bill
asked the Prime Minister if the Government proposes to give facilities for the discussion of the Dock and Waterside Labour (Decasualisa-tion) Bill?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on 27th February in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith), to which I have nothing to add.
Evictions
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the consideration of the Rent Restrictions Bill has accelerated the issuing of notices by landlords for possession of houses in England; and, if so, will the Government include England in the legislation promised in relation to Scotland in cases of eviction?
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce legislation relating to rent restrictions, evictions and kindred matters?
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that applications to the Courts for the eviction of tenants from their homes are rapidly increasing; that the Courts are congested with applications of this character; and that the evicted tenants cannot find alternative accommodation, with the result that overcrowding of a serious nature is taking place; and whether the Government will undertake to introduce a short Bill on an early date to deal with this urgent matter and, in the meantime, make some statement which might check or prevent the evictions now being threatened?
The alarming increase in applications for eviction orders and notices to quit has nothing whatever to do, I am informed, with the Rent Restrictions Bill, but is in consequence of recent legislative changes, the prolongation of bad trade, and the great shortage in houses. The Ministry of Health and the Scottish Office have been striving to meet the matter without legislation, which at the present moment presents unusual difficulties. A draft Bill is now, however, under consideration, and will be printed without delay.
With reference to my question, does the Prime Minister propose to consider other matters at the same time, such as the matter—in regard to which the House is in general agreement—of reversing the decision of the Court of Appeal on the question of rates?
The chief matter that has been before us has been the question of evictions.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman consider bringing forward, at the same time as this matter is dealt with, other proposals upon which there is general agreement?
Yes, if there is general agreement.
If the Government intend, as suggested, to introduce a Bill shortly to deal with evictions, will they be in a position to make any statement in regard to their views on the Bill which is now before a Grand Committee upstairs?
In view of the great anxiety that is felt by the owners of houses who require the houses for their own occupation, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that there shall be no interference with their existing rights under Orders that have been made to give them possession?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Dartford County Court only last week an Order was made for possession of three separate shops for one man and two single sons?
Coast Erosion
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the dangers arising from coast erosion and to the fact that the whole of the east coast from Dover to Flamborough Head is gradually being eaten away; that 35 towns and villages in Yorkshire alone have disappeared; and will he carefully consider this question of reclamation before repudiating it, having regard to the prolific crops raised on already reclaimed land?
I have been asked to reply. Coast erosion is going on at certain points on the east coast, but not throughout the entire length referred to by my hon. Friend. The Royal Commission who reported in 1911 found that more land was being regained from the sea by accretion than was being lost by erosion. I am considering the reclamation of certain littoral tracts on the shores of the Wash.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only within the last three days there have been reports not only from Yorkshire, but from the Hythe area of Kent, and especially with regard to the Lowestoft area—in fact, all along the coast?
There has been serious erosion in certain parts, and I am considering every practical proposal for reclamation.
rose —
If we debate every question, we shall not make any progress.
Members of Parliament (Railway Passes)
asked the Prime Minister if, in his negotiations with the railway companies, inquiries have been made as to the cost of third-class travelling of Members of Parliament from London to their homes; and whether he can say what saving would result from the grant of third-class instead of first-class tickets?
Yes, I am having the fullest information put before me, and hope to be in a position to make a statement in a day or two.
Seeing that it was the Labour party who put this question forward, will they, with a view to economy, limit themselves to third-class tickets?
You can get a seat outside if you like.
Pre-War Pensions
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the date upon which the pre-War Pensions Bill will be introduced?
I regret that there seems to be little chance of this Bill being introduced before Easter. A very extensive series of claims has been made in connection with this Bill, all of which must be examined if the Bill is to have any chance of being carried.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us a guarantee that this Bill will be introduced as the first Measure after Easter?
I am afraid I cannot guarantee that it will be the first Measure, but that it will be introduced immediately after Easter I can give a guarantee.
Municipal Land Purchase
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the necessity placed upon cities like Glasgow to purchase land for municipal needs, he will bring in legislation to prevent the values created by the purchase going to adjacent holders of lands?
As my hon. Friend is aware, the land problem as a whole is not escaping the attention of the Government; and the point he raises in his question will not be overlooked in the Government's consideration of the subject.
Civil Service Pensions (War Service)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the Committee he proposes to appoint to inquire into the grievances of ranker officers, he is prepared to include in the reference the case of civil servant pensioners who similarly returned to duty on war service but received no special increase in their original pension in recognition of such war services?
The proposed Committee will not be competent to deal with claims other than those of Army pensioners.
League of Nations
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need of securing the adequate representation on the Council of the League of Nations of all parts of the world, and more especially of the Far East, with its many problems, he will instruct the British representatives to the Assembly of the League to press for the observance of the geographical basis of the election of members of the Council?
The geographical factor is already observed as far as possible, and will certainly be borne in mind by the British delegates at the next Assembly. I do not think any special instructions on the point will be necessary.
Industrial Disputes
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the constant industrial unrest, he will consider the issue of a weekly statement showing in all its aspects the loss entailed by current lock-outs or strikes both to individuals and to the community as a whole?
I have been asked to reply. Statistics are published in each issue of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette," showing the number of workpeople involved in strikes and lock-outs, and the aggregate loss of working days at the establishments where the disputes occur; and particulars of the more important disputes are published in detail. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the current issue of the "Gazette," containing information for February. I aim afraid it would be impracticable to compile satisfactory particulars at more frequent intervals, or to make any trustworthy estimate of the total loss to the community resulting from strikes or lockouts.
Could not information be given as to the increased cost of living owing to these strikes?
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to statements in the Press within the last few days, to the effect that the working days lost in Italy during the last 12 months are not more than 4 per cent. of the working days lost in previous—
Notice should be given of a reference like that.
Tramways and Omnibus Strike
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the London County Council tramways for the current financial year bear burdens approximately as follows: maintenance of track £250,000, rates on track £67,000, loan charges on street widenings £29,009, and that these charges are £94,000 more than the total cost to the undertaking of meeting in full the demands of the Transport and General Workers' Union in respect of the London tramway employés; and whether, for reasons of equity and with a view to assisting the London tramway undertaking, the Government will so far as is necessary introduce legislation relieving the undertakings of these charges coupled with any provisions regarded as expedient to meet the financial objections of the highways authorities?
I have been asked to answer this question. I am aware that considerable charges fall on the London County Council, as on all tramway undertakings, in respect of maintenance of track, payment of rates, and contributions to street widenings. As my hon. Friend is aware, the obligation as to maintenance of part of a highway in which a tramway is laid is imposed by the original Tramways Act, 1870, and is of general application. It may be that in the changed circumstances of road traffic the imposition of this obligation might be reconsidered, but any changes would have to apply to all tramway undertakings and would have very important reactions on the highway and local authorities. I would consider carefully proposals by these responsible authorities, but I fear it is obvious that such a large general question cannot be dealt with by emergency legislation.
May we take it that the problem of municipal tramway undertakings will be taken into account by the Government equally with the endeavours of Lord Ashfield and the traffic combine to secure a protected monopoly for the streets of London?
I cannot anticipate what will be done by the Court of Inquiry.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the omnibus companies have not to bear similar charges, and therefore have an advantage in competition over the tramways?
rose —
If the hon. Member puts supplementary questions, he must not put insinuations in them.
I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Transport whether he will give the latest information with regard to the tramways and omnibus strike; and whether, owing to the extremely congested state of the London streets, he will forthwith follow the recommendations of previous Committees that have sat on London Traffic and, without further delay, set up a Traffic Board with a view to many of the difficulties operating at the present time being overcome?
With regard to the first part of the question, I am informed by my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Labour, that the position has not changed, and that the Government are expecting the Report of the Court of Inquiry in the course of the afternoon. With regard to the second part of the question, it is proposed to introduce the London Traffic Bill to-morrow and to advance it as rapidly as the time and procedure of the House allow.
Will the hon. Gentleman, if he has anything to announce to-night at about 11 o'clock, or whenever the House adjourns, be good enough to communicate it to the House?
Cannot we see the Bill now? When will the Bill be ready?
May I ask the Prime Minister whether any special steps are being taken by the Government to minimise the extraordinary hardships and suffering entailed on those who have to travel to their work from the great dormitories of London?
We think that the best step which can be taken is to end the dispute as rapidly as possible, and we are working very hard at that now.
Meantime the poor wretched people have got to walk to their work.
Agriculture
Arable Land (Subsidies)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the precarious position of agriculture with regard to food production, he will consider some form of subsidisation of arable land in this country?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made on the 12th February last, in which I announced that the Government were entirely opposed to any system of bounties or subsidies as a means of assisting agriculture. Nothing has since occurred to change that policy.
Questions
Cadets (Training Colleges, Fees)
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have considered the question of reducing or abolishing the fees charged to cadets at the training colleges for officers for His Majesty's Army, Royal Navy, and Royal Air Force; and what is the policy of the Government on this question?
No, Sir. The Government have not yet had this matter, which raises financial as well as other considerations, before them, and I am not therefore in a position to announce their policy with regard to it.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman look on the matter very sympathetically, and will he not consider it at an early date?
Secretary for Scotland
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the movement carried on in Scotland during the past few years in favour of the creation of a Secretaryship of State for Scotland, he intends to take action in the matter?
I am aware of the claims of Scotland, and they have my sympathy, but at present I can add nothing to the reply which I gave on the 12th February to a supplementary question by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Mr. Hogge).
In view of the fact that the Prime Minister only conducts two Departments and the Secretary for Scotland conducts 10, will the right hon. Gentleman double his salary?
Emigration (Orphan Ohildren)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is satisfied that the emigration of orphan children is properly carried out and their future welfare safeguarded; and, if not, will; he consider the advisability of exercising greater control and supervision in this matter?
I have been asked to reply to this question. I invite my hon. Friend's attention to the reply which I gave on the 13th instant to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for South Buckinghamshire. I may add that an inquiry which I have instituted into the methods of selection by boards of guardians and voluntary societies in this country is now proceeding.
Tanganyika (Trade Ordinances)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the trade ordinances in Tanganyika territory have been amended; and in what language books of account must now be kept?
The ordinances have been amended and the amending ordinances will come into force on 1st April. The language difficulty, which only arose in the case of the smaller and sometimes illiterate traders, has been met by excluding from the language requirements all businesses of which the profits do not exceed £150 a year, and by the exclusion of all pedlars from the Profits Tax. The operation of the language requirement has also been postponed for three years instead of one. The only language which has been added for the books of account is French.
Are British Indian traders allowed to keep books in their own language?
I am not sure. Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question down.
Iraq (British Troops)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the date upon which we will withdraw our military forces from Iraq?
This is the third time within a few weeks that the hon. Member has put this question to me. The House is aware of the position. By the Protocol of April, 1923, the duration of the Treaty under which we have undertaken to render military and financial assistance to the Iraq Government was limited to a maximum period of four years as from the ratification of peace with Turkey. This, of course, involves the withdrawal of our military forces within that period; but I cannot say by what precise stages or at what particular dates the withdrawal will take place.
The right hon. Gentleman told me last week he was considering the matter. What I want to know is will he consider it before the next General Election?
The Government are much more concerned in coming to a wise decision than a hasty one.
When will the Treaty with King Hussein come before the House?
Gold Coast (Takoradi Harbour)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the amount of the fee paid or to be paid to Messrs. Stewart and MacDonnell for advising the Gold Coast Government upon the Takoradi harbour works; whether any fee has been fixed, and, if so, for that amount, for the visit of Mr. Palmer to investigate the position of this undertaking; and whether any clause exists in the agreement with Messrs. Stewart and MacDonnell which will permit of a refund of part fees sufficient to cover the total costs of Mr. Palmer's investigation?
The total fee payable to Messrs. Stewart and MacDonnell for advising on and superintending the harbour work at Takoradi is £80,000, of which £57,500 has already been paid. Mr. Palmer's fee has been fixed at 7,000 guineas. There is no provision in the agreement with Messrs. Stewart and MacDonnell for such a refund.
Who will have to pay this £7,000, the Colony or the Treasury?
The hon. Member knows the object of sending this expert is with a view to saving money. Dissatisfaction was felt with the work, and when there was dissatisfaction the Government came to the conclusion that it would be unwise to go on spending money without being sure of the facts. This gentleman is being sent to advise us. I cannot say any more.
Is this a case of private enterprise or of State enterprise?
Kenya (Native Punishment)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the Kenya Native Punishment Commission Report and to the statement made therein that it is an everyday practice for employers in Kenya Colony to offer to natives the alternative of a whipping or going before a magistrate; and whether he proposes to draw the attention of the Governor to this statement and inquire what action is to be taken to put a stop to this practice?
Yes, Sir. The Governor was informed in a despatch sent last October that the alleged practice must foe discouraged in every possible way.
Irish Free State (Naturalisation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has considered the position which will shortly arise in the case of subjects of foreign states who have become citizens of the Irish Free State under Section three of the Irish Free State (Constitution) Act; and whether he will propose legislation for the purpose of defining the conditions under which such persons are or may become naturalised British subjects?
In reply to the first part of the question, I am not aware that any position will shortly arise in this matter which has not already arisen. In reply to the second part, it will be for the Government and Parliament of the Irish Free State to consider what action they desire to take in accordance with the pro-vision of the Irish Free State (Constitution) Act and of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, 1914.
Is it not the case that a foreigner coming into Ireland can now become a British subject without naturalisation? Is that to be allowed to continue?
We have no reason to believe the Irish Free State has departed, or intends to depart, from the Treaty.
I asked about naturalisation. I asked whether a foreigner can be naturalised.
I am sure the House knew perfectly well the circumstances: and the conditions when they passed this Treaty. We have reason to believe that it is being fulfilled on both sides.
Sultan of Nejd (British Subsidy)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what subsidies are now being paid to foreign potentates in Arabia and elsewhere; and when it is proposed to discontinue these payments?
A final payment of £50,000 has been made to Ibn Saud, Sultan of Nejd, during the financial year now ending. This subsidy is not to be continued. No other subsidies have been paid by His Majesty's Government during the year to any potentate in Arabia with whom the Colonial Office is in relations.
Are payments made to these potentates outside Arabia? That is in my question.
I would not like to answer that question without being sure of the facts.
Empire Settlement (Australian Delegation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Report of the delegation which recently visited Australia is to be published; and what is the cause of the delay in publication?
The Report, which has been delayed by the illness of one of the delegates, reached me on the 22nd instant. It is necessarily a lengthy document, and I have not yet had time to study it; but I think I can safely assure the hon. and gallant Member that it will be printed and laid before Parliament.
Empire-Grown Tobacco
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the source of origin of all Empire-grown tobacco imported into this country during the past year, and in what additional regions conditions might be considered suitable for the expansion of the tobacco-growing resources of the Empire?
The reply to the first part of the question involves a statistical statement, which is being prepared, and will be communicated to the hon. Member. As to the second part of the question, I should not like to give a list of colonies and protectorates suitable for tobacco growing without consulting the local Agricultural Departments, but I understand there is room for considerable expansion in Nyasaland and Rhodesia.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any resolutions passed by official bodies in any of the Dominions or Crown Colonies respecting the increased preference on Empire-grown tobacco recommended by the Imperial Economic Conference; and if he can state the terms of such resolutions?
No such resolutions have been received.
British Empire Exhibition
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the approximate number of non-European British subjects to be employed at Wembley in connection with the exhibition; and will he state what arrangements have been made for their welfare?
I understand from the British Empire Exhibition authorities that the number of non-European British subjects at present known to be coming to this country, in connection with employment at the exhibition, is about 500. I am informed that special accommodation has been provided by the Dominion, Colonial and Indian authorities responsible in each case, with the assistance, where necessary, of the management of the British Empire Exhibition.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether, seeing that it is important that both the citizens of this country and visitors from other parts of the world should be able to spend as much time as possible at the Empire Exhibition at Wembley and that special legislation to enable it to be opened on Sundays is not proposed, he will consider if, in the event of the exhibition being opened on Sundays without legislative sanction, it would be a case to which the Remission of Penalties Act, 1875, might be considered to apply?
In applying the provisions of the Remission of Penalties Acts, 1859 and 1875, regard must be had to the circumstances of each particular case, and it would not be possible to give any indication as to the attitude of the Government in regard to cases which have not yet arisen.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department who owns the freehold of the site of the British Empire Exhibition, and to whom the buildings and development will belong at the termination of the exhibition?
The freehold of the British Empire Exhibition is the property of the British Empire Exhibition (1924) Incorporated and is held in trust by the B.E.E. Assets Company, Limited, to be dealt with as the association directs. At the termination of the exhibition, the buildings belonging to the British Empire Exhibition (1924) Incorporated and the development will remain the property of the Exhibition Company, with the intention that at some future date all or any of its assets and liabilities or obligations shall be acquired by the B.E.E. Assets Company.
What is this company? Is it a company trading for profit or purely for purposes in the interest of the Empire?
The names of those concerned with the Assets Company are Lord Morris, Sir Charles McLeod, in place of Sir Richard Vassar Smith, deceased, and Sir William Peat.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the £175,000 that is being spent by this Parliament in putting up these buildings will be handed over, without any recompense, to the Assets Company?
The hon. Member must put that question on the Paper.
St. George's Club
asked the Minister of Agriculture why the Department of Woods and Forests has refused to consent to the assignment of a lease in Carlton House Terrace to the St. George's Club?
I am informed by the Commissioner charged with the management of the property in question that he refused his consent to the assignment of the leases of Nos. 19, 20 and 21, Carlton House Terrace to the St. George's Club, because the establishment of the club in that part of the terrace, by greatly increasing the amount of traffic, would seriously interfere with the amenities of the neighbouring private residences and depreciate the value of the Crown estate.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that consent had previously been tentatively given to the assignment for bedroom purposes in the Atheneum in regard to these very premises, and is it not possible for a tradesman's entrance to be put in Cockspur Street in order to avoid congestion of traffic?
In regard to the first part of the question, I had not understood that to be the fact; but the Commissioners of Woods and Forests feel bound to consider the advantage to the revenues of the Crown.
Is not there any amount of room for increase of traffic in Carlton House Terrace?
Attack on British Troops at Queenstown
Statement by the Colonial Secretary
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he could make a statement to the House in connection with the deplorable occurrence at Queenstown, which took place last week?
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information to give the House regarding the machine-gun outrage which took place at Queenstown on Friday evening last, and whether the Government accept responsibility for the protection of British sailors and soldiers landing upon territory under the control of the Irish Free State?
It is with the deepest regret that I have to inform the House that, on Friday evening last, a murderous attack was made by four men armed with Lewis guns upon a party of unarmed British troops on leave from the harbour defences on Spike Island, who were disembarking at Queenstown. The casualties among British troops were one killed and 18 wounded; two civilian War Department employées and three civilians, including two women, were also wounded.
I desire first, on behalf of His Majesty's Government to express our deepest and most sincere sympathy with the victims of this cowardly and brutal outrage and with their relatives and friends.
The circumstances of the crime have been fully and accurately reported in the Press, and I will not now repeat them.
The British troops in question were stationed on Spike Island, in accordance with the provisions of Article 7 of the Treaty, which provides that the Government of the Irish Free State shall afford to His Majesty's Imperial Forces in time of peace such harbour and other facilities as are indicated in the Annex to the Treaty. And, in reply to the question of which the hon. Member for Kingston-on-Thames (Mr. Penny) has given me notice, namely, whether the Government accept responsibility for the protection of British sailors and soldiers landing upon territory under the control of the Irish Free State, I would remind the House, that, as we are all aware, the Government of every self-governing Dominion is solely responsible, notwithstanding any such provision as I have just mentioned, for the preservation of law and order within its own boundaries. So far as His Majesty's Government are aware, no difficulties or friction of any kind have arisen out of the presence of British troops in the harbour defences specified in the Treaty, and in particular I am assured that at Queenstown the most friendly relations have always existed between the British troops and the inhabitants of the place, and there has been not the slightest complaint against the behaviour or conduct of the troops. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]
His Majesty's Government have complete confidence in the earnest desire of the Government of the Irish Free State to track down the perpetrators of this outrage, and to bring them to justice. I am not yet in a position to say anything as to the prospects of success in capturing the criminals, but I am sure that they have arrayed against them the overwhelming majority of the people of Ireland. Church, Press and people are behind the Government in their efforts. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]
Before I sit down, I should like to add a word as to the attitude which, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, they, and the British nation, should adopt in this matter. This crime has been repudiated by every political party in Ireland, and we accept that repudiation. It is almost certainly the act of irresponsible individuals. But in so far as there was any motive behind the crime, that motive can only have been to bring about the downfall of the Free State Government, by embroiling it with this country. That Government, we are convinced, is doing all it can to track down the murderers, and wipe out, so far as is possible, this blot on Irish honour. In that task it should have all the help and all the sympathy that we can give. [ Hear, hear .]
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the first time that His Majesty's Destroyer "Scythe" has been fired upon, but that it had been fired upon before, and that her guns were kept on the ready to repulse any attacks that might be made? Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the leave on shore of British men had for some time been cancelled or suspended, owing to the danger of these men being murdered if they came ashore, and that it was only renewed on the occasion when this very terrible occurrence took place; and if the right hon. Gentleman is aware of these facts will he have them brought to the attention of the Irish Free State Government, so that adequate steps will be taken for the protection of our soldiers and sailors when they land in Irish Free State territory?
I am not only not aware of these things, but it is only right to say that the information which I gave to the House of the relationship between the troops and the Irish people was officially supplied to me by the Army authorities. So far as the Government are concerned no report of any sort or kind has been made, and therefore I cannot conceive such a position.
Will the right hon. Gentleman he good enough, in view of what I have said, which I have from a very responsible authority, to make inquiries on those points and ascertain whether they are correct or not?
Before I do that I am not so sure that it is the duty of the Government to communicate with anybody except the responsible people, and, if the facts are as alleged, the duty of the responsible people is to communicate with the Government and not with private individuals.
Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Admiralty whether the facts are not as I have stated?
I have been in communication with the Admiralty and the War Office this morning, and the information which I have given to the House is the information which they, officially, have supplied to me.
How many British troops are there on Spike Island?
I cannot state offhand. The question of the number of troops is entirely for the military authorities themselves, and is a matter in which the Free State Government do not interfere.
Are British soldiers on Irish Free State soil in no circumstances to have any protection afforded them other than that which may be afforded by the Free State Government?
Nothing could be more disastrous—unfortunate and terrible as is the incident—than to associate it in any way with the Irish Free State Government.
Prime Minister and Lord Derby
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a report of a speech made by Lord Derby on Saturday in which he declared that there was not a shadow of foundation of any sort or kind for the statement made by the Prime Minister in connection with him on Friday last; whether he has since received a letter from Lord Derby asking him to give the same publicity to this denial as he gave to the original story; and whether he will now make a further statement to the House on the subject?
I am very glad to have an opportunity of making a statement to the House in regard to this matter. In view of the private notice question on Thursday and the demand for a discussion in the House on Friday in regard to the circular which had been issued by the North Western Free Trade Union, I asked that inquiry into the circumstances be made of the British Empire Exhibition authorities at Wembley by the Department of Overseas Trade. As a result of those inquiries, I was informed that the space obtained by the North Western Free Trade Union had been sublet to them by the Cotton Textile Industrial Committee, which had taken a large amount of space in the Palace of Industry, and that Lord Derby was Chairman of the Committee.
I have since been in communication with Lord Derby, who has assured me that he has had no official connection with the committee, and I have written and telegraphed to him, conveying an expression of deep regret that I should have been misinformed on the subject. I express my great regret to the House that I should have innocently made use of in- correct information officially supplied to me.
Perhaps I should add that I have just received a telegram from Lord Derby, in which he says that he is very grateful for my courteous letter and telegram, which end the matter as far as he is concerned.
Naval Armaments
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the report that the United States Senate has asked the United States President to call a further conference to consider naval disarmament, and whether, before giving orders for five new light cruisers costing approximately £12,500,000, His Majesty's Government will enquire of the United States Government whether a further conference to consider naval disarmament will be called and will express willingness to delay proceeding with the cruiser-building programme pending the United States Government's decision.
I have no information with regard to the action of the United States Senate beyond what has appeared in the Press and until the proposal, if any, is in my hands I cannot say what I can do beyond welcome it.
Can the Prime Minister inquire of His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington whether this be the fact, and, if so, will he delay laying down these new cruisers?
I cannot add anything to my answer.
Business of the House
Can the Prime Minister tell us when he is going to publish the replies from the Dominion Governments relating to the question of Singapore in view of to-morrow's Debate?
I have just passed the final proofs this morning, and they will be circulated to-morrow morning.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proofs set forth the despatches in full?
Yes.
With reference to the Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule, can the Leader of the House tell us how far he proposes to go to-night?
Given the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule, it is intended to use it only to complete the Report stages of the Army and the Air Votes. In the event of those being concluded before eleven o'clock, we shall proceed to a discussion of naval questions on any matter other than Singapore, but in no case going beyond eleven o'clock.
Who will take charge of the Air Estimates?
Ordered,
"That notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, the Proceedings on Reports of Supply may be taken this day after Eleven of the clock, and be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Clynes.]
Bills Presented
Performing Animals Bill,
"to regulate the exhibition and training of performing animals," presented by Brigadier-General COCKERILL; supported by the Duchess of Atholl, Captain Bowyer, Mr. Foot, Sir Sydney Henn, Miss Jewson, Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy, Sir Robert Newman, Lieut.-Colonel Pownall, Lady Terrington, Mr. Wignall, and Mrs. Wintringham; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]
National Health Insurance (Cost of Medical Benefit) Bill,
"to make further provision with respect to the cost of medical benefit and to the expenses of the administration of benefits under the Acts relating to National Health Insurance, and to amend Section twenty-nine of the National Health Insurance Act, 1918; and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. WHEATLEY; supported by Mr. William Adamson, Mr. Arthur Greenwood, and Mr. James Stewart; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 82.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
[FIFTH ALLOTTED DAY.]
REPORT [17th March.]
Resolutions reported.
Army Estimates, 1924–25
1. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 161,600, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for defraying the Charges for Army Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, viz.:
Heads of Cost. Amount required. £ Head I.—Maintenance of Standing Army 10,000,000 Head II.—Territorial Army and Reserve Forces 2,000,000 Head III.—Educational, etc., Establishments and Working Expenses of Hospitals, Depots, etc 2,000,000 Head IV.—War Office, Staff of Commands, etc— 500,000 Head V.—Capital Accounts 800,000 Head VI.—Terminal and Miscellaneous Charges, etc. 700,000 Head VII.—Half pay, Retired pay, Pensions, etc. 2,000,000 Total to be voted 18,000,000"
First Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The Secretary of State for War, in bringing in the Army Estimates, asked for the view of the House with regard to what is called the Lawrence Report. Last year I served on the Public Accounts Committee and on the Estimates Committee, and most of us on that Committee came to the conclusion that there was a very considerable amount of overlapping caused by the present system of financial administration in the Army.
That question will arise on the Second Vote. It does not arise on the first Vote. On the Report stage, we are kept strictly to the subject of the Resolution, which is simply the number of armed forces. The question the hon. and gallant Member is now raising will come on the Vote on Account.
I want to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he can on this occasion reply to certain questions which I put to him the other day concerning the administration of the ordnance factories at Woolwich. He will remember that on that occasion, owing to the progress of business, he was unable to reply, but he promised me that he would give some reply at the very earliest opportunity.
There is nothing on this Vote for the ordnance factories. The hon. Member must wait until we reach the Second Vote.
Question put, and agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
With reference to the Lawrence Committee, a good many of us, whose duty it is to scrutinise the Estimates, and to sit on the Public Accounts Committee, were of the opinion last year that there was a very considerable amount of overlapping going on with regard to Army accountancy, owing to the setting up after the War of the corps of military accountants. The whole question is a very technical one, but it has been very exhaustively examined by the Lawrence Committee, who were first appointed some 18 months ago, and who took a year very carefully to consider the question in all its bearings. The Secretary of State for War asked for the views of those who have taken a special interest in this question. So far as I am concerned, I may say that I heartily welcome the conclusion to which the Committee has come, and I hope that His Majesty's Government may be able to carry out their recommendations at the earliest possible date. If the Record Offices could be abolished there is a considerable saving of close on £250,000 to be made to start with. Those of us who spent some years in khaki during the War will remember the multitudinous returns called for by the Pay Office and the Record Office from the various units, and if in this way it be possible to save £195,000 on the Record Office alone, it will also save us a considerable amount of clerical work in the units themselves. I think for that reason, if for no other, that the Lawrence Report ought to be adopted.
There are one or two other points to which I want to call attention. In the old days, at a time when the officers' pay was not adequate for their expenditure, the Army Pay Corps was manned very largely by those who found that they could no longer afford to stay in a combatant corps and who were attracted by the higher emoluments of the Army Pay Corps. That obviously was not a desirable state of affairs. Now that the officers' pay has been so much increased, it should be possible to get men who have been through, or partly through, their Articles as chartered accountants and, instead of them going into the city, to give them a chance of becoming officers of the Army Pay Corps, or whatever it is to be called in the future. I should imagine that there would be a good many only too glad to get the chance of the more amusing life of those who are serving rather than to go into the city and sit on office stools all their lives. It would also save the expenditure which is now incurred in officers who join the Army Accountants Corps going through Sandhurst and Woolwich.
I also want to make a point with regard to the officers' pay. The Secretary of State told us that the pay of officers was to be reduced as from 1st July, 1924, by something between 5 per cent. and 6 per cent. because of the cost of living being less than it was on the 1st July, 1919. I quite agree that that was the arrangement made five years ago with the War Office, but I would ask the Government to bear in mind that since 1919 the peak of the cost of living rose as high as 176 above pre-War. It is true that at the present time it is below what it was in 1919, but no extra allowance was made to the officers when the cost of living rose in 1920 and 1921 very much above what it was when the pay was settled in 1919. There is the analogous case of the men's pensions arising out of the War which were stabilised for three years from 1922 at the then rate. Although the cost of living was lees than it had been before, the great increase in the cost of living during the preceding years was borne in mind, and for that reason the men's pensions were stabilised for three years from 1922. I venture to suggest, therefore, that there is something to be said for not making this reduction of 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. in the officers' pay in view of the fact that the peak in the cost of living occurred during the five years under review.
The Anderson Committee recommended that the rate of pay of junior officers up to and including captains of, I think, seven years' service should be considerably reduced by some 3s. per day. It is very difficult indeed to get enough officers to come forward for Sandhurst and Woolwich, and if, on top of the reduction of 5 per cent. or 6 per cent., you are going to have what I may call the super-cut by the Anderson Committee, you are not going to encourage young officers to join the service. These two cuts together involve reductions of 4s in a lieutenant's pay of some 16s. a day. That is a reduction of 25 per cent., and is a serious matter. It is no encouragement to parents to allow their sons to put up for Sandhurst or Woolwich if they feel that their pay is being reduced by one quarter, and that possibly further reductions may take place in accordance with the 1919 Agreement.
The Royal Army Medical Corps has practically stopped getting fresh recruits of officer rank. I have been at pains to turn up the recent Army Lists. The February list shows seven lieutenants in the whole of the Royal Army Medical Corps, and the majority of them are on probation. In view of the fact that the establishment is some hundreds—I have not been able to get the exact figures—this obviously shows that there is something very much at fault with the methods of recruiting officers for the Royal Army Medical Corps. We had this question also before us last year on the Estimates Committee. We found that the cost of the Medical Services was becoming very much more than one might have expected. We pressed or the reason, and we found that captains and majors were doing the work of lieutenants, because the lieutenants were not there. Reference to the February Army List shows, not only that there are only seven lieutenants, but that there are 52 senior officers, mostly colonels and lieut.-colonels, who are being re-employed, presumably to take the places of the lieutenants who have not been forthcoming. I know that this question of recruitment is a very difficult one, but I do want to know what steps the War Office propose taking in order to secure a reasonable supply of young officers for the Royal Army Medical Corps. The whole future of the health of the Army is involved, and it is a most important question. It is absolutely essential that we should have recruits for the Royal Army Medical Corps, even if it be necessary, in order to get them, to have additions in the pay of young officers, because otherwise we shall soon find ourselves with a corps consisting only of majors and lieutenant-colonels, and in a few years only of lieut-colonels, and then there will be nothing at all. I know that the question of competition with civilian emoluments has to be taken into consideraton. This is not a new question with the War Office, because 25 or 30 years ago there was considerable dissatisfaction with what was then known as the Army Medical Staff. The status of the corps has to be increased very much. Before the War the Royal Army Medical Corps was attracting a reasonable number of fresh recruits. At present that is not the case, and I ask the representative of the War Office to say what steps are being taken to ensure a better state of affairs.
I rise for the first time confident that the House will extend to me the kindness which it always shows to its last-joined recruit. The debates on the Estimates for the Services have been, at all events to me, of very unusual interest, having brought forward, as they have done, expressions of pacifist opinion, chiefly from the Labour Benches and the giving vent to those opinions in a way which, I think, has been quite remarkable and new in the history of this House. Out of the Debates it occurs to me that we get this fact—that we in this House, and I believe in the country generally, are divided into two camps, those who think that War is useless, futile and stupid, and those who still think that war is of some use, that force is still a remedy and can still do something for humanity. It is also clear that everyone is agreed that war is cruel and horrible and should be avoided where possible. But that cleavage of opinion is really of great importance to the world. For this reason: I do not think you will get a cessation of war simply because war is horrible. I do not think you will get a cessation of war until people realise that war is futile.
In spite of the remarks of the right hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely), after the speech a few days ago of the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley), I think there are large numbers of people, like the hon. Member for Harrow, who, although they hold pacifist opinions, are yet frightened to go the whole hog and carry the matter to a logical conclusion by voting for complete disarmament. I put myself in that category. This attitude may be wrong; I daresay it is; but I am sure it exists, and I find myself exactly in that position. To-day it is exactly the position of His Majesty's Government. Can anybody doubt, after knowing the career of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, I that he will not be the first to sweep into the limbo of the past all navies and air j forces directly that becomes practical politics? It is only when we can get a sufficient number of people in this country and in Europe to realise that war is not practical politics that war will become a thing of the past. The hon. Member for Harrow said that he was frightened. So am I. Not being entirely contented with what the Prime Minister said, that he will not allow the Services to rust, I go further, and ask him to put a little more polish on them.
Before this House agrees to the Report of this Vote, we should have some assurance that something is to be done with regard to the co-operation of the three arms. The ideal that we should have a single Minister of Defence has now been rejected. But, apart from the major questions of policy and of strategy and the important question of the Quartermaster's Department, there is also the technical side. It is no good having good policy and having your troops equipped with the finest arms available, and with the finest things that science can produce, unless they know how to use them and how to use them in co-operation. We have heard a great deal in this House about the lessons of the War. We ought to learn more from our failures than from our successes. The most tragic failure of the whole war, a page in the history of this country which is extremely black, is the story of the Gallipoli Peninsula. I leave aside the strategy of that ill-fated expedition. Whether it was right or wrong, it did not enter into the thoughts of the soldiers and sailors concerned in it. But as one views that page now, as one viewed it at the time, the story of that expedition was the story of a very difficult cutting-out expedition, involving the co-operation of the three arms, which was not sufficiently thought out and not sufficiently prepared for in times of peace.
To-day the three arms are not working together to anything like the extent that they should. There is not, indeed, the co-operation between the junior officers and the expert technical officers which there ought to be. Each of the three great Services to-day is getting more and more into a water-tight compartment, and each is living in its own sphere. I know, of course, that there is a certain exchange of staff officers. I know that there are certain numbers of aeroplanes at work with the artillery on Salisbury Plain. But I submit that still there is no real grasp of the "vie intime" between the one service and the other. When the Army goes to work with the Navy it finds it extremely difficult, not because the Navy is wrong nor because the Army is wrong, but simply because they do not know each other's ways sufficiently. In this great Empire of ours there is not the slightest doubt that in any future war we must bring in the Navy as well as the Army. Only 18 months ago we were within five hours of war with Turkey in the Straits of Gallipoli. There, again, the problem arose in a very acute form. I had the honour of taking a small part in that, and I found how extremely difficult it was for the two services to combine on tactical points.
There is a vast mass of the junior officers, and of non-commissioned officers as well, who are complete strangers to each other. There is a complete lack of the clash of trained minds, the minds of trained experts, who are all dealing with the same class of subject. It is only by this clash of trained minds that you can get real progress in these problems. I understand that to-day the Admiralty are fighting hard to get a tame Air Force. In the next war the Army will have a similar claim for an Air Force of its own. The problems they have to deal with, reconnaissance, photography, and observation of artillery fire, are just as important to the High Command of the Army as are airships and aeroplanes to the Flotilla Commander. While this question as to how exactly the Air Force is to co-operate with the Army and the Navy remains unsolved, we ought not to lose sight of the fact that the Army and the Navy ought to get into far closer touch than they are now. The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken referred to the pay of officers. I would like to support him in that, and I am sure that I have many-friends outside this House who will be extremely grateful to him. Few people realise how very expensive it is to live in the Army to-day. The average officer is not a particularly rich man. At Camberley, Aldershot and Salisbury the unfortunate officer, with his wife and children, is invariably exploited when he is seeking rooms and quarters in which to live.
In the course of this Debate on the Army, both in Committee and to-day, we have listened to a series of speeches, some instructive, some constructive and some destructive, on various points. There is one matter which is fundamental and which has not received the attention that it deserves. That is the question of recruiting. It has been admitted on all sides, except by those gallant knight-errants who went into the Lobby in favour of what was practically the elimination of the Army, that in these Estimates the numbers of the Army have been reduced to the absolute minimum that is consistent with our national safety and with the function for which the Army exists. But, even having regard to the fact that we have reduced the Army to a minimum, we are still perilously short of adequate numbers in recruiting. The question of recruiting has been touched on from various specific points of view. I would like to draw attention to it from a broad and general point of view. We know that the Government have been in office only six weeks, and although a very popular lady novelist has shown that much can be done in half that time, yet it is not for me to suggest that in the short period of three weeks the Secretary of State can produce recruits like rabbits out of his new cocked hat. Nevertheless the question of recruiting is worthy of very close attention.
Those of us who have been connected with the Service know that in pre-War times the main causes of men joining the rank and file were being crossed in love or being "down and out." In this Debate it has been suggested by one speaker that because of the unemployment insurance and what is generally called the dole, men and youths were not coming forward as recruits. This was rather cast in the teeth of the Army as an institution, but I would point out to hon. Members, through whose mind that thought has run, that even if from these classes we did before the War gain a large number of our recruits, the answer to it is to be found in the reputation of the British Army and in what the Army did at the outset of the War. That is to say, it was an institution that was able, after the so-called "down-and-outs" were started on the slippery slope and were in danger of losing their self-respect and of becoming unemployable instead of unemployed, to make them mentally and physically and spiritually useful citizens in the country and the Empire. But the question of recruiting is more general than that. We find today that as our Army is based on the voluntary system we must have, in a system of recruiting or of cadets joining for commissions in the Army, sufficient attractions to get the right kind of men and lads and in sufficient numbers to equip that Army. The present shortage of recruits is due to the fact that we have not found what are the right attractions under post-War conditions.
Regarding the question of cadets at Woolwich and Sandhurst, we know that at the present moment there is a shortage in numbers, and I wish to draw the attention of the House to some of the conditions which operate in relation to that matter. When a young fellow or his parents have to decide whether or not he is to follow a military career there are certain things of which the parents are conscious but not the lad himself—certain things which the boy has to give up. He has to give up his own freedom of action to enter on a life of military discipline; he has to learn that when someone above him says, "Do this," he must do it. I have it on the authority of a Field Marshal that even he was at the beck and call of his own batman. He has also to give up his chance of bringing about, by his own efforts, an increase of his possessions and his prosperity. He can only go through a scale of promotion. If these two things are given up, there must be some compensations for them. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has raised the question of eliminating the fees for Woolwich and Sandhurst. As the father of a Woolwich cadet, I should welcome any such step, but I do not think that, in itself, such a step would solve this question. The question of security of tenure is much more important, and I am glad to notice that a spokesman of the Government has stated their intention of substituting for the present anxiety in that respect, an assurance with regard to the officer who devotes his whole life to training along certain specialised lines. Such an officer is to have security of tenure offered him by the War Office, and that to my mind is very important in connection with the question of securing a sufficient number of suitable young men for Woolwich and Sandhurst. I do not believe it is sufficiently widely understood by parents that if they put their boys into the Army they are making for them a career, and that the boys are not going to be thrown on to the labour market of the world with only a special trade which they are debarred from following and therefore incapacitated in the struggle of life.
There is another point which in itself sounds trivial but yet is sufficiently important, and it is that the young lad himself, who is attracted to an Army life, is attracted very largely because of its connection with the horse. We have heard a good deal about the mechanicalisation of the modern Army and I should be the last to suggest that we are not to keep abreast of the developments of military science in that respect, but that does not alter the fact that the young cadet is moved by different aspirations. Battalion commanders, battery commanders and, of course, cavalry officers, in the past always advocated and emphasised the association of the young officer with riding, polo and hunting as much as possible, not because these are expensive enjoyments of the wealthy few, but because of their importance in the development of the kind of character which we want in our young officers, and the qualities of leadership, control, quick decision and restraint. It may be said the same qualities can be developed by driving a petrol engine, but that is only a question of the driver's control over his machine, whereas in the other case the young man is controlling another living brain and making it carry out his instructions and thus familiarity with riding is an important element in the training of the young officer. If the result of the mechanicalisation of the Army is to be the elimination of the horse, then, both from the point of view of attractiveness and from other points of view, the effect will be that in Woolwich and Sandhurst we will suffer a material diminution of young fellows coming forward of the type which we want—the best type for commissions in the Army. That type is not confined to the public school, but comes from the secondary school and from many sources. So much for the question of the officers.
Now a word with regard to the recruiting of the men. Here the question is almost more serious, the numbers being larger. The question of the reserve is a corollary of the question of the active list. As the line is sufficiently recruited, so gradually will our reserve reassume its correct numerical standard. I said a few minutes ago there were two reasons which in pre-War times were said to make men join the Service. The same conditions do not obtain to the same extent to-day, and those responsible for recruiting will need to think out systematically what are the present reasons why sufficient men are not being attracted, and what is in the psychology of the men themselves which causes the Army to lack any attractions for them, and then proceed to put their house in order. Here, again, the question of security of tenure enters, but in a different way. I speak not so much of the short service man. What I wish to point out is that to take a young fellow, to train him, get him into the finest physical condition and turn him out as a trained soldier is no good to him if, after picking out the very best of his life, you turn him on to the labour market of the world without giving him a groove in which he can continue. It has been suggested that the men should receive vocational training before receiving their discharge. Well, anyone who knows anything about bricklaying, for example, knows that a foreman bricklayer wants a good man and not someone who at the age of 35 has taken up bricklaying; in the last year of his Army career. What is wanted is the lad who has been learning the trade from the age of 16—the real article. It is not merely a question of laying straight lines of bricks; it is the work at the coigns of the windows and the buttresses and all the more difficult parts which necessitate a long apprenticeship. By giving the soldier some years of semi-training, we are not turning him out as a real craftsman.
I would impress upon the War Office that the country has a duty to these men who join the Army, and when their active service career terminates there are certain lines in civil life which should be definitely allotted to them, and which they are well fitted to follow. The difficulty has been to fit the discharged soldier into civil life, but there are certain careers suitable to such men. There are, of course commissionaires, and so forth, but at the present moment there are also, for instance, postmen. Such careers should be earmarked for men discharged from the Army, so that it will not be a discharge but a transfer, and when the State recruits a man for the Army, providing he is fit and of good character, it will take upon itself the responsibility of finding him work, whether active service work or work to which he is afterwards transferred in some definite civilian employment. Otherwise, we shall go on turning out this manhood, the pick of our people—because of the training they go through they are the pick—and discharging them from the Army to drift around, ready to do anything but able to do nothing definite in civilian life. I emphasise these points in connection with the question of recruiting—the necessity of making the Army a career, whether for the officer or the soldier; security of tenure and looking into those attractions which appeal to the immature mind and yet are important and which, possibly, may be summed up "Spats, sporrans, spit and polish."
I desire to call the attention of the House to some matters which have not yet been touched upon in these Debates. One is a matter of particular interest to> the workers in the Royal Ordnance Factories and the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield. I dare say if the Father of the House, the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), were asked, he would say that the question of pensions for ordnance workers arose during his first year of Membership of this House, and scarcely a year has passed since then without this matter being brought to the attention of the War Office and the Government of the day. I do not think I am far wrong in saying that since 1870 this subject has been brought to the attention of the House year after year, and it remains to-day an unsolved problem. It is difficult to understand—and I am not sure that there is any satisfactory reason—why ordnance workers alone amongst State employ¹s are without the benefit of superannuation or pensions. So far as I have been able to gather the facts of the case, I understand that ordnance workers enjoyed some form of superannuation scheme up to 1870, when it was abolished by a Treasury minute. I suppose the Treasury had some reason for their decision, but I am inclined to think it was a very poor reason because since then no one has been able to state definitely what the reason was. The fact remains that since 1870 ordnance workers have been without superannuation benefit. I dare say there are those who think that after a period of fifty-four years a grievance like this should have disappeared. There is one category of grievances which seem to affect one generation, and when that generation passes either the grievances pass with them or, for some reason, cease to exercise the feelings of the succeeding generation in precisely the same way. There is another category of grievances where the effects are continuous from one generation to another and do not cease after the lapse of time, but continue to be a source of irritation and embitterment both to the original sufferers and their successors. The case of the ordnance workers belongs to the second category.
Long and fruitless efforts have been made either to recover the old superannuation conditions or establish new conditions, and repeated endeavours have been made to formulate a superannuation scheme on a contributory basis which could be applied generally to ordnance factories, but all this has been without avail. I would remind the House that, under Rule 70, governing the employment of these workers, a man may be discharged from employment at the age of 60 and must be compulsorily retired at the age of 65 and, during recent years, this grievance has been made considerably more acute because of the large numbers of men who have been discharged after long service between the ages of 60 and 65. Take the case of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield. In August, 1914, about 1,800 workers were employed there. During the War the number rose to 10,000, including 1,500 women. Since the Armistice there have been considerable and rapid reductions in the strength, and I am informed to-day there are only 1,300 workers employed in that factory.
Side by side with the reduction in personnel has gone the transference of certain work hitherto done at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield to other places. This has led to the closing down of a number of departments, including the smithy, the screw shop, the barrel room, what is known as the large room, the magazine department, and the machine gun department. The result of these post-War changes has been the amalgamation and concentration of the work left in three or four departments, and this has resulted in limiting the capacity of the factory and rendering it impossible to handle the odd and repeat orders which formerly came from the Dominions, and is making it much more difficult for that expansion to take place which would be necessary in case of emergency. I hope the Financial Secretary to the War Office will be able to inform the House to-day that this crippling of the possibilities of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield is not to be permitted any longer under the new Government.
I have always understood that the policy of the Labour party in respect to the production of munitions was the extension of State production and the progressive elimination of private enterprise. So long as armaments are required, and so long as circumstance exist which demand the provision of large and rapid expansions in certain emergencies, I think it is desirable that the fullest possible use should be made of State factories, both in the production of the Government's immediate requirements and against those larger requirements that would be necessary in the case of an emergency. I am one of those who are anxious to avoid another clash of arms, and I am as sincere as other Members in my hope that the Government may succeed in bringing about that new set of conditions which would permit a drastic reduction in armaments to take place. These are two items in the Government's foreign policy, and they are items to which, I think, all Members of this House are only too anxious that they should succeed in giving effect, tout while the Government will strive to promote the conditions of a durable peace and endeavour to bring about general and parallel disarmament, they have indicated that they have their own policy of defence and that that policy of defence requires certain defence services. It is in giving effect to this policy of defence that I urge upon the War Office the desirability of making the fullest possible use of the existing State factories.
I would suggest that if, in existing world circumstances, and pending the establishment of those favourable conditions which would promote parallel and general disarmament, the Government find it necessary not only to have a defence policy but also to maintain defence services in order to secure the safety of this country and of the British Commonwealth of nations, it seems to me most desirable that they should aim, as far as possible, at bringing about a progressive elimination of private production of armaments and rely more and more upon the production of State factories. I suggest this, with regard to the meeting both of current requirements and of those requirements that would be necessay in case of emergency, for it seems to me that if there be any strength at all in the argument for the elimination of private enterprise from munition production in peace time, that strength is infinitely greater in war-time, because the possibilities of profiteering in peace time are limited, but in war conditions they become wholesale. I think it is to be regretted that the policy of past Governments has led to the crippling and the handicapping of the State factories, like the Royal Small Arms Factory, to such a point as to render them almost incapable of large and speedy expansion in case of an emergency, and I hope the Financial Secretary to the War Office will tell this House that the present Government intend to put an end to this crippling policy and that it is the policy of the Government to make the fullest possible use of the State factories, at Enfield and at other places, in giving effect to their defence policy.
There is one other point to which I would like to draw the attention of the representative of the War Office, and that is the question of pensions, to which I have already referred. Ordinarily, men are not taken on the strength of the factories if they are over the age of 45. As I have stated, they may be discharged at 60, and they must be discharged at 65, and accordingly I think it is plain that the men who are discharged are men who have put in long periods of service in State factories. They are men, in the majority of cases, who have been engaged in highly specialised work for a period of from 20 to 40 years, and when they are discharged at the age of 60 or 65, I think it must be apparent to all hon. Members that even in normal circumstances it would be extremely difficult for them to find alternative employment, but in the circumstances that exist to-day discharge to these men means permanent unemployment. It is quite true that they are in receipt of a gratuity which is based, I believe, on a week's wage for every year of service, but the gratuity which they receive when they are discharged is totally inadequate to keep them and their families together for more than a very short time, and the position to-day with regard to these discharged men is that the majority of them have exhausted their gratuity, have ceased to receive unemployment relief, and are being compelled to fall back upon the Poor Law until they reach the age at which they will qualify for the old age pension.
I had occasion to write to the Secretary of State for War quite recently with regard to the wages paid to labourers in the Royal Small Arms Factory, and I understood that the wages they were receiving varied from 44s. to 46s. a week. I am now informed that they will receive, or have received, 3s. a week increase. I remember, in pre-War days, the demand of the Labour party for a 30s. a week minimum wage, and we realised in those days that even, then a 30s. minimum wage was not more than sufficient to put the recipient just above the bare living standard, but the equivalent to-day of 30s. in pre-War days would be something like 54s. a week, and these labourers in one of the Government factories, despite the fact that they are receiving 3s. a week increase, are now at a level which the whole of the Labour party must admit to be below the poverty line. I quite realise that the Government have shown some sympathy in respect of these men, and I hope the Financial Secretary will again go into this question, because I do not think it can be maintained that men who are receiving 46s., 47s., and 49s. a week to-day, with the cost of living about SO per cent. higher than it was in pre-War days, are as well off as they would have been in those days had the labour demand for a 30s. minimum wage been conceded.
It is quite true that the skilled men are in receipt of higher wages than those that I have quoted, but the fact remains that, even with their higher wages, they are not in a position to save much against the time when they will be discharged, and I would cite two cases to illustrate the hardship and the injustice suffered by these men. I have in mind the case of a man whom I have met personally, who was engaged for 48 years in the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, and whose unbroken family connection of employment at that factory extended over 300 years. I have another case in my mind, of a man who has personally done 50 years' service in that factory. These men are discharged at the age of 60 or 65, and are given a small gratuity, and then thrown on the scrap heap. What is it that these men are demanding? They are asking for a contributory superannuation scheme. They are prepared to make contributions equal to those of any other persons employed by the State who are entitled to pension rights, they are prepared to pay an equal amount for an equal pension, they are prepared to forego their present gratuity in favour of superannuation pensions. There is no desire on their part to sponge on the State. All that they are asking for is a fair deal and a square deal.
5.0 P. M.
I would at this point remind the Financial Secretary to the War Office of the case of the men who have already been discharged. It seems to me that the War Office has not been very dignified in its treatment of these men. I do not think the War Office ought to be content to squeeze all the industrial skill and capacity from their workers, sap their physical powers, and then, at the end of a long lifetime of service, throw them on the industrial scrap-heap and soothe their consciences by giving them a small and inadequate gratuity. In raising this matter this afternoon, I am not complaining against the Government because in the short time they have been in office they have not solved it. This is one of the very many difficult problems which the new Government have inherited from their predecessors. This grievance with regard to superannuation benefit has subsisted now for 54 years. The responsibility for it lies with previous Liberal and Conservative Governments alike, but I do appeal to the Labour Government not to continue this policy of ignoring the just claims of the workmen. I want to put what I consider a practical suggestion with regard to this matter. I want to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the Government will not consider the setting up of a joint representative committee to consider the claims both of the men employed and of the men discharged, with a view to a satisfactory scheme being worked out whereby those men, who have devoted the whole of their lifetime to industrial service to their country, may be treated with humane consideration and elementary justice when they cease any longer to be of service to a State Department. I hope, when the Financial Secretary comes to reply on the various points, that he will give this suggestion his most sympathetic consideration, and I hope a favourable reply. If the Government adopt this suggestion, they will be giving an earnest of their desire to remove this long-suffered grievance, and they will earn the gratitude of thousands of men, the bulk of whom are trade unionists, who belong to that category of citizens who, having served their country long and well, deserve well of their country.
I am sure the House will have heard with considerable interest the speech which the hon. Gentleman has just made, with the greater part of which I fully agree. In regard to the last question that he raised, namely, the question of pensions for ordnance workers, I was very glad to hear the suggestion he made. I want to put it to him and to the Financial Secretary that it would be far better if the Secretary of State for War would go into the matter himself and come to some conclusion, because I am very much afraid that if this Special Committee which is suggested is set up it will mean more delay. I remember very well—I think it was two or three years ago—a Committee was set up to deal with this particular matter under the Chairmanship of the late Chief-Registrar of Friendly Societies. That Committee sat for some time, and in the end it was disbanded. The other day, when I put a question to the Secretary of State for War on this question of a pension scheme, he made, if I may say so, a very accurate reply, at any rate in one particular. He said that this was largely an actuarial matter. If the Government employed the present Chief Actuary, Sir Alfred Watson, they would soon get a scheme, at any rate, much more quickly than any Special Committee would do. It does not want a lot of sittings of Committees or a lot of deliberation. It simply wants an expert to have regard to the schemes already in operation to see whether they could be adapted for ordnance workmen and what the cost would be.
The hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. W. Henderson) may be interested to know that only to-day I have had a letter from the Secretary of State for War. I do not like the terms of the letter very much. I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman did either, and that is why, as a supporter of the Government, he did not refer to it to-day. The Secretary of State for War says in this letter: the scheme, and if you asked Sir Alfred Watson to do so to-morrow, I know from a knowledge of that gentleman, extending over many years, that he will soon find you a scheme and tell you what it would cost, and there would be no special committee needed or any more consideration by the Secretary of State for War.
While I would support the suggestion that my hon. Friend has made, I think he will agree with what I am pressing on the Government. If there is one device that leads to delay, it is the setting up of a committee. I dare say he has observed that, in regard to many of the difficulties already confronting the Government, the device is to set up a committee. I do not want to set up a special committee in connection with the pensions to these men unless it is the very last resource. What I do press upon the Government is to get to work and show that they are to do something more than the other Governments have done in this particular case. It would well pay the Secretary of State for War, having regard to the efficiency of the men at these factories and all over the country, to give a proper pension. It would attract much better men to the factories generally. I have never been able to discover why these men were cut off in the year 1870. We are in 1924 to-day, with a Labour Secretary of State for War, and we will see what he is to do in this important connection. There is another matter I want to refer to in connection with the discharges which are now taking place from the arsenals. I want the Financial Secretary to the War Office to make a note of this because it is very important. It is the very alarming statement that appeared in the Press this morning, no doubt in the paper which he habitually reads. This paper says: diately you discharge these men, from the financial point of view, you are sending them to another quarter to obtain financial assistance. From the point of view of the State, as a whole, this is nothing from the financial point of view, but from the moral point of view there is a very great deal in it. I say it is far better to keep these men employed than to send them to the Poor Law guardians for relief, because in many cases that is what it means. I hope that the Financial Secretary to the War Office, when he comes to reply to me, will not say, as we have been hearing so often from the other side, that he has been in office only six weeks, or that he cannot get rabbits out of a hat or things like that, because this is an administrative matter. You need not come to the House for an Act of Parliament to deal with it. This is a thing he can do himself. He could prevent these discharges taking place in Woolwich to-morrow morning if he liked; he has only to sign an order and it is done. I hope he is not to say to me that he does not think he is able to do it. I want to state to the House one or two of the things which are happening under the present administration. I hope he will not say to me that the other Governments did this and that his Government is also doing it. That is not what we expect from a Labour Government. We are expecting something different altogether, and I am sure we shall get it. I would refer in this connection to two cases which happened quite recently, which the Financial Secretary to the War Office might consider, having regard to the promises of his party and all they have said up and down the country during the last few years. One case was put by an hon. Gentleman opposite, who gave a case to the Secretary of State of a man who went to Woolwich Arsenal as a lad in 1887. He worked satisfactorily for many years, was promoted to be assistant foreman, and after 34 years' service was summarily dismissed.
There are thousands of them.
The House will be surprised to know what was the explanation of the Secretary of State for War. He says:
"This post was abolished in 1916, when the control of the Royal Arsenal Telephone Exchange was taken over by the Post Office Authorities. In view of the length of his services, Mr. — was given alternative employment as a store-holder and later as a clerk, but I regret that the time came when it was not possible, in view of large reductions of establishments, to retain him further, and his case was carefully considered, and in due course due notice was given to him."
He refuses to consider the application that has been made for that man to be reengaged. I venture to say that that is no answer to give to a man who has served the State for 34 years.
When was that?
He was dismissed in July, 1922. The point I am now making to the right hon. Gentleman is that he has done nothing to get away from that and put himself right. There is another case of a gentleman who joined the Artillery College, Woolwich, and who served longest on the present clerical staff at Headquarters and the Arsenal. I would remind the hon. Gentleman opposite, who seems to gain some satisfaction from knowing which Government it is under—I do not think it helps the matter one bit—that this man, although he had served the longest, had an excellent character and was certified as having very good ability, also had to go. I say to the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary that he ought seriously to make an effort to deal with these cases, and to see really what can be done. I have put to the right hon. Gentleman during the last few days instances of men of 60 and 65 years of age who also have had to go. I think their cases particularly hard. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said in reply, and I hope we shall have some further explanation from him this afternoon. He referred me to a rule, and said: State for War, in good official style, which I have recognised for so long, goes on to say: going to happen to the men employed at this depot. Is the Secretary of State for War going to ask them to move to other parts of the country, or is he going to make arrangements for them to carry on their work and duties at Woolwich itself? That is one of the points I want him to answer this afternoon. There are one or two minor ones to which I will refer quite briefly, but about which I would like to have a little information. Take the important question to my constituents as to the future location of the Royal Artillery Record Office. Obviously the people who are concerned in that particular office are very concerned to know what is going to happen to them, and what arrangements are going to be made. I put a question on this matter to the Financial Secretary, and his reply was that the matter was under consideration. I hope this afternoon, as this is the proper occasion, some definite announcement will be made on this matter.
I also want to put a question about the Army Ordnance Department. That is the Department which has relation to the stores, and the business of the employés there, I think, chiefly consists of issuing material to various Departments up and down the country. It is obviously not a Department particularly concerned with the military side of the War Office, and yet I am told that, under the present administration, military people are being more and more incorporated into that Department, to the detriment, as people there think, of those who have served there a very long time, indeed. I believe that Department carried on its work with considerable efficiency and economy all through the War. They were specially thanked by everybody who had anything to do with them; yet, I am now told—the right hon. Gentleman will tell me whether I am correct or not—that, apparently, it is the policy to make this Department revert to a sort of military Department, and that the officers of this Department have been increased 10 times in number since the War. I do not want to say a word which would mean loss of employment or promotion to anyone, but I think there is a case for these men who have served there so long, and so efficiently, and I should like to hear what the policy of the right hon. Gentleman is in this connection. I received a memorial only a few days ago about this matter. This is a portion of the memorial which was handed to me, and was signed, I believe, by more than 20 of the men. They say: wish they had gone to arbitration; I believe they would have done much better. Be that as it may, the right hon. Gentleman granted an increase, but has not answered the question—he may, perhaps, do so this afternoon—as to whether he thinks the sum is a fair one to pay these people in this Department. By the award men at present on the 44s. scale receive an additional 3s., while those trades I have mentioned to the House, who are also on the 44s. scale, plus an extra 6d. per day extra duty pay while so engaged on their various duties, are penalised as being considered on the 47s. scale, and, therefore, only receive an extra 2s. per week, thus reducing their extra duty pay to 4d. per day, instead of 6d. as hitherto. They claim that they should have equal consideration with other people.
All these are matters of moment to a very considerable body of men, who, I think, deserve consideration from the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope we shall have a definite announcement on these matters this afternoon. We endeavour by questions in the House to elicit information, and to find out what is really the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, but, I am sorry to say, we have not hitherto been very successful, and this is the occasion when we hope the Secretary of State for War will be able to say something reassuring. He said the other day how much he admired the people of Woolwich—how very well they were doing their work. I want him to put that into some tangible shape. We appreciate the compliments of the right hon. Gentlemen, but we would much prefer that, in addition, he would do something substantial to meet what I believe to be very many just grievances that need a remedy.
There are only one or two points to which I should like to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. In the first place, when the Secretary of State introduced the Estimates, he said, speaking of the Weir Committee, that That was a most interesting statement, because economy and efficiency are exactly what we want. It is to be regretted that the Secretary of State for War does not appear to be in a position to tell us that at the present time he is considering these changes in organisation. I should like to put to him a definite question. Is he or is he not considering making any of the far-reaching changes which the Weir Committee considered necessary to ensure efficiency and economy? At the same time I wish to draw attention to the paragraph in the Lawrence Report which states that "Reorganisation is absolutely essential to war efficiency." Then there is one question following the reduction of which we have heard. How is it that, having disbanded five cavalry regiments and 22 infantry battalions which, of course, mean cutting down largely the number of horses required in the Army, we should now have seven new appointments in the Remount Department to superintend light horse breeding? This is an astounding fact in view of the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman himself, who stressed the importance of increased mechanicalisation of the Army, and said he was going to endeavour to mechanicalise in the Army as much as possible. How are these seven new appointments justified?
We have heard a good deal about the reduction of 2,800 men, which we have been told is due to administrative economies in ancillary services. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that 2,171 men appeared in last year's Estimates as "officers and men in course of reduction." It is obvious, therefore, that only some 600 of the total represents the actual economies effected this year. This, taken in conjunction with the fact emphasised by several speakers in the last Debate, that nearly all the £7,000,000 reduction in the Estimates is automatic and unavoidable, gives a rather different picture of the position than would be gathered from a casual glance at the Estimates. Of the £4,500,000 reduction on the current charges for the Army, nearly £2,000,000 is due to the reduced cost of the armies abroad, of which over £1,000,000 is due to our withdrawal from Constantinople; £1,000,000 is due to reduced cost of provisions, clothing, etc., due to the fall in the cost of living, while a further large sum is due to the automatic reduction in officers' pay. It seems probable, moreover, that the £52,000,000 asked for last year was an over-estimate. If that is the case the reduction this year is almost negligible. Then I should like to ask this one last question. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the sum for "Commissions abroad" has increased by £24,000 this year. What is the reason of it? Why has not the expected reduction taken place there. What were these anticipated reductions which it has been found impossible to carry out?
There are two or three matters to which I should like to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. The first is the adverse influence on recruiting at the present time by there being no guarantee given of secure employment for the men after they have put in their service with the Colours. I should like especially in this connection to refer to the question of employment in the Post Office. This question has been raised by me before. It was raised before the War, when I did a lot of work in connection with the National Association for the Employment of Ex-Soldiers and Sailors. I brought forward this matter again in February, 1919, and the then Postmaster-General (Mr. Illingworth) said:
"The registration and primary selection of ex-soldiers for Post Office employment has for many years been carried out under the control of the War Office, and that arrangement is still in force. All vacancies for postmen and porters which are not required for ex-boy messengers will be given to ex-soldiers and sailors. I hope that the 50 per cent. proportion will be exceeded during the period following the end of the War."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1919; cols. 1956–7, Vol. 112.]
This is an old grievance, as to these vacancies which were to be reserved for ex-soldiers. In 1920 a further agreement was made between the War Office, the Admiralty and the other Ministries that these vacancies should be allotted to ex-service men, and that the nominations submitted by the National Society should go through the books of the Labour Ministry instead of direct to the Post Office as before. This was a great mistake and the root cause of the trouble. The Labour Ministry is concerned in the employment of labour for large industrial concerns, and not with the men employed in the Government Services; the consequence is that the vacancies have been filled from the Employment Exchanges and not from the National Association, with the result that since January, 1922, only 920 ex-Regulars have been appointed as against 1,690 Duration of War men. Further, the special Post Office Regulation that all ex-Regular soldiers must have at least three years' service has not been carried into effect. Personally I must confess that I have always thought that it was unfair to retain this large proportion of 50 per cent. of the vacancies in the Post Office for telegraph messenger boys—
I am not quite sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is in order on the Army Estimates in going into that subject.
I was trying to bring out that the Army is suffering from the slackness of recruiting, and that this latter was a question of not being able to give a career to the men after they had put in their service with the colours. I should like to put it to the right hon. Gentleman: What have the boy telegraph messengers ever done for the country in comparison with the man who has been on active service? Supposing you say to the boy messengers, whom we take on at 14, that at 18 they should join the colours, and when they had served their time they would be given employment on return to the Reserve. I do not myself see that the boy messenger who has not done any service for his country should of necessity affect the number of vacancies allotted to the ex-service man. Unless something is done by my right hon. Friend, how can he expect to get men into the Army?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must be aware that the War Office has no power whatever to compel other State Departments to take any of the action suggested by him.
But can there not be cooperation between the War Office, the Admiralty and other Departments to try to get an agreement to take on these ex-service men? There was an agreement It is not working at the present time, and the men are suffering in consequence, and recruiting is suffering in consequence. I would suggest that an Order should be issued requiring that all men who go into the Post Office should have at least three years' service at their back. I would ask the Secretary of State that vacancies in the Post Office should be submitted to the National Association for the Employment of Ex-soldiers, who know who are the good men, who have their names and their records. The Employment Exchanges do not know these men, and cannot gauge, perhaps, as to their suitability. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to join with the Admiralty and Air Force in this matter, and to take the points I have mentioned into consideration with a view to finding a remedy for the present stagnation in recruiting.
This is the only occasion that those of us who represent some of the workers employed by the Government in the national yards have the opportunity of catechising the Government as to their intentions respecting these workers. Throughout the year, we very humbly submit petitions to them in the form of letters and appeals for action, and we get polite official answers; but on this occasion we have the privilege of meeting the Ministers face to face, and having a talk with them about our various interests. The subject on which I have been asked to speak for a minute or two is that of employment in relation to the national yards. I do not propose to enumerate all the grievances that are in the national yards, and especially at Woolwich Arsenal. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has enumerated these fairly fully. I can only express the wish that he had been as exacting in the last Parliament on these matters as he appears to be in this. If he had been we might possibly have got further.
The situation so far as the borough which I have the privilege of representing is this: We have on the unemployed register in the borough at the present time no less than 11,000 men. I want to ask the Government to give their attention, and their hearty sympathy, to the position in which that borough finds itself. For the purposes of the War the Government employed the men there on the needs of the War, and we had 100,000 men employed at Woolwich Arsenal at that time. When the War ceased, the authorities disclaimed all responsibility for the welfare of the borough, and left these men on our hands. There was no employment for them. There were no houses in the other part of the country for them to retreat to, and there they have been in great part, upon the rates in a highly distressed borough. The Government throughout has done almost nothing to meet the situation which itself had a great part in creating. We feel in Woolwich that the first thing the Government should do with its own factories is to see that they are better employed before passing on orders to other parts of the country.
These national factories have cost an enormous amount of money to build, and they are most highly equipped. We have employed in them men of the highest possible skill, and yet we allow these men and all this machinery to lie idle whilst orders are diverted to private firms who do not do the work as efficiently as it otherwise would be done in the nation's own yards. That is the case that we put forward. I have stated before in this House that if it is necessary to have a standing Army for the protection of the country, it is also necessary to have a standing arsenal to supply the material with which our defence has to be kept up.
In asking that the national yards should be employed, we are only asking that the Government should do its own business in the most efficient and cheapest way, and in a way which will make for peace as well as efficiency. We regret, therefore, that those responsible in the Government still continue to discharge men employed in the Arsenal. At this moment there is waiting for me in the Lobby a deputation to complain that this week 280 men are being dismissed from one particular Department. We feel that the case is extremely urgent, and that the needs of this borough and others in a similar position ought to be attended to.
In the second place, I would like to say a word or two about the standard of wages which prevails in these national yards, and especially at Woolwich Arsenal. Until a few weeks ago, we had thousands of men working for a wage of £2 2s. 9d. a week. I know the Secretary of State for War has gone into that matter, and has made certain advances which I am sure are not all that he would have wished to make under circumstances which we regard as totally inadequate to the needs of the men concerned. If you put an increase of 3s. per week on £2 2s. 9d. it is still less than £2 6s., and the average rental in Woolwich is 15s. a week. How can you keep a wife and family and properly equip a home with an income of that character? We ask that this matter should not be regarded as closed, but that it should be open for reconsideration, and that the amount granted, for which we are grateful, should only be regarded as something on account. We especially ask that the position of the skilled men should be taken into account.
The third matter I wish to refer to is in relation to pensions. This matter has already been introduced by my hen. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. W. Henderson). It seems to me to be a question of the honour of the State in relation to the workmen that it employs. What the State does now is to take boys into Woolwich Arsenal and elsewhere and keep them employed until they are 56 to 65 years of age, and then they are dismissed without any provision for their future. It is true we give them a tiny gratuity which is very soon exhausted. They are too old for any other occupation, or, what is perhaps equally difficult, their specialised training unfits them for other occupations, and they are in the position of being dismissed by the nation because we regard them as being too old to do the nation's work.
Quite recently I extracted the information from the War Office that since the Armistice nearly 2,000 old men had been discharged from Woolwich recently without pensions. They are thrown on to the streets for the other ratepayers to keep, unless they have been fortunate enough to make some tiny provision for themselves. Out of a wage of £2 2s. 9d. the opportunity for providing an old age pension out of savings is not very great. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has quoted a letter from the Secretary of State for War in which he says that he was referring this whole matter to the Treasury. As was asserted by the hon. Member for West Woolwich, this is heartbreaking, because the Treasury has a heart that is not easy to thaw. We feel when a matter gets to the Treasury that we have some considerable difficulty in getting it very much further in our direction.
This question of pensions is one which should touch the honour of this House and the honour of the nation as a whole. It has been mentioned that these men had pensions up to June, 1870, when a Treasury Minute cancelled those privileges. The agitation since that time has made two separate demands: first, that the old condition should be re-established that a pension should be granted to old workers. The second demand has been that the men should be allowed to contribute on an actuarial basis towards this retiring pension, and there has been delay from one Parliament to another in this matter which would have broken the heart of a stone. You get a thing before the Department, they listen attentively to it, promise sympathetic attention, and then something happens and it gets no further. Then the Government appeal to the country and meet with disaster, and the whole thing has to be started afresh. There has been no lack of sympathy expressed on this matter, but the difficulty is to move the dreadful inertia of the War Office to real sympathy and activity in regard to this matter.
The position has grown worse in recent years. For one reason or another the Department has been discharging men of from 50 to 65 years of age, and these men have to go to the Labour Exchanges. They have to be kept on the rates or the Poor Law, and that is not a state of things this House should regard as satisfactory. The nation has used these men in the days of their strength. They have given to it very highly specialised skill. When the nation was in trouble they responded heroically and did not spare themselves, and they have had great tributes paid to them by successive Secretaries of State for what they have done. If that is true, then it should be a moral responsibility on the part of the nation to see that these old servants are not turned adrift as being of no account at all, but some effort should be made whereby these men would be put upon the same basis of security as the best firms in the country give to their workmen.
I will not say what the method should be of arriving at a definite conclusion. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield has suggested a Special Committee should be appointed, a suggestion which was criticised by the hon. Member for West Woolwich, but if nothing else is possible, let us have such a Committee, and let there be representatives of the workmen upon it. Let us see if we cannot, after many years of effort and trial, bring this matter into the region of practical politics and bring it closer to a decision. These men are asking for pension rights equal to other grades in the Service. The dockyard workers have had pensions for many years, and there is no reason at all why these highly specialised and quite essential men should be singled out for neglect in this special way. They offer contributions towards a proper pension system, which should be equal to what other Departments contribute to the pensions they receive. Therefore I ask that this matter should receive the immediate, earnest and very sympathetic attention of His Majesty's Government.
I do not propose to weary the House with a long list of figures, but I observe after a short stay here of about 15 months that the advocacy of economy in this House is about the most unpopular line an hon. Member can take. If you wish to get any assistance you have only to get a discussion going on how to spend the country's money. If you propose in spite of contracts to pay out a matter of £15,000,000 to other people you get a House full. If you take the average candidate when he is before his constituents, in nearly all cases one of the most important items is economy in Government expenditure. I was very interested to observe the attitude of the Under-Secretary for War on this very point in a speech he made last week. He said: meandering about the country looking for horses in case a war breaks out. That little sympathy is costing £22,000. I should like to ask if he will give me an answer to the statement I made last week that the cost of the British Army is being under-represented to the tune of £1,700,000, and that during the course of the last four years it has been misrepresented to the extent of £34,000,000. I should like to explain exactly what that means.
6.0. P.M.
At the end of the War we had a considerable amount of Army stock representing £150,000,000. We have been living on them. I have no doubt that it is a very desirable thing to 6.0 P.M. get rid of those stocks, but the time will arise when it may be a Labour Government is in power or a Conservative Government, or it may be a Liberal Government. It may be that when they come into power there are no stocks left and that your cash estimates are going to be very high indeed. I would put it to the Secretary of State whether or not that is correct.
In the Estimates the word "cost" is used. I want an answer to that question. I attach very considerable importance to the Lawrence Report and all that it means. The Lawrence Committee was set up by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Colchester (Sir L. Worthington-Evans). I think he deserves great credit for having set it up. I like to give credit to my opponents or to anyone. I am very sorry to see, by the trend of the speeches which have been made by the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary, that there is very little intention of its recommendations being carried out. The Under-Secretary speaking last week said: the Members of the House do. I should like to suggest that the Secretary of State, if he could see his way, should call in General Lawrence himself. I do not know General Lawrence. I have never met him, but this was almost a unanimous Report and I really think the Secretary of State should call him in. What did the Secretary of State himself say—and this is what really causes me to be suspicious that it is not intended to have these recommendations carried out. He states:—
I should like to refer to a speech made by the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nail). He is taking up the cudgels, and I should like to answer him. I assure the Secretary of State that this is not done as a matter of opposition, but because I believe I am right and I am doing my best in the interests of economy. I do not care whether the right hon. Gentlemen is a Labour Secretary of State or a Conservative. It will be rather interesting to me some day to see whether, when Liberal Government comes into power, it is going to do the same thing. Upon my soul I should feel inclined to quit politics altogether. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said this last week: The battalion commander was worried far more than he ought to have been during the last war. The battalion commander under the new system will be entirely relieved of accounts. The battalion commander will have specialist accountants there, and the statement put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman has really no foundation in fact. He referred also to the exception which was taken to the Committee's Report by Sir Charles Harris. He mentioned him by name. I prefer to refer to him as the late Joint Permanent Secretary to the War Office. He drew attention to this, that
Then he refers to another point. He states that the Committee never went near or heard anything about the Territorial Army. There was one of the best reasons in the world for the Committee not going near the Territorial Army. The accounts of the Territorial Army are on a par. They were framed by the same man. I refer to Colonel Grimwood, who did such admirable service in connection with cost accounts. He also was the initiator of the cost accounting system in the Army. Therefore, there was not the least need for the Committee to look into the Territorial scheme at all. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also said that "decentralisation through units was a snare and a delusion." He says more than that
One more point. If a Lawrence Committee was found to be necessary for the Army, it makes me extremely suspicious that a Lawrence Committee is necessary for every other Department of the State, to find out what is going on. I ask myself, in the absence of a Lawrence Committee, whose are the functions to walk into any Department of the State and to say, "Look here. Here is gross extravagance. This must stop"? The answer I get is that it is the function of the Exchequer and Audit Department. What is the Exchequer and Audit Depart- ment doing to have allowed this sort of thing to go on? It seems to me it is a case of "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours" and that is why taxation is at the point it is to-day. I can well conceive that when the Secretary of State found himself at the War Office he said, "Here I am by the grace of God and the assistance of the Liberal party. I do not know much about my job. Now, gentlemen, I will look after you if you will look after me." I do object, for I remember the speech of the Secretary of State for War on the Army Estimates last year. I am sure he does not remember it, so I may tell him what it was. His speech on the Army Estimates last year consisted of an interjection when I was speaking on the subject of economy, and he said:
I want to impress upon the Secretary of State for War that I mean business on this question. All that the Under-Secretary of State could say last week, in reply to my statements, was that I was forcing an open door. I am only afraid that they have banged and barred the door and constituted themselves the door-keepers, If they do not get on with this work, if they do not get on with these suggestions, I say it is a scandal. I am looking forward to their carrying out these suggestions, and the country also is expecting it. I put it to them that they ought to give, if they can, answers to some of the questions I have asked—very important questions—and to give some assurance to us, who, after all, are really interested in effecting some economy in the country, that they do not intend to bury the Lawrence Report six fathoms deep and pay no more attention to it. If the right hon. Gentleman will give me that assurance, he will have no more loyal supporter in this House than myself in any work he cares to do in connection with it.
During the Debate in Committee on this Vote, I raised one or two points and asked one or two questions dealing with the training and organisation of the Territorial Army. As I did not receive then any very definite answer on the points I raised, perhaps I may be allowed to raise them once again. My suggestions would not involve any additional expenditure of any kind whatsoever, so the Secretary of State for War will not find himself in any difficulty with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. My suggestions were with the view of increasing the economy of handling as well as the efficiency of the Territorial Army. The first point that I raised was with regard to the annual camp, which, as everyone knows who has had any connection with the Territorial Army, is part of the annual training of that force. What happens at the present time is this: There is a certain number of permanent standing camps, such as those on Salisbury Plain, at Aldershot, and at other places; but the accommodation there is nothing like adequate for the number of men who go down in August to do their annual training, and other camping grounds have to be selected, prepared, and laid down. The procedure is that representatives from the division search round the country for a suitable site, preferably, of course, where reasonable manœuvring facilities are available, and a temporary camp is then laid down. That entails very considerable expense, because, amongst other things, a water supply must be provided, for which it is very often necessary to lay down several miles of pipe, at a proportionate expenditure.
That having been done, the men go into training, and at the end of a fortnight, more often than not, the whole of this water supply, which has been laid down at considerable expense, is torn up and the ground put back into the condition in which it was before. Two or three years ago, the preparation of a divisional camp cost something like £4,000, and that camping ground was only used once, so that that money was spent entirely to provide camping facilities for 14 days. What I suggest is that a certain number of additional permanent camping grounds should be selected and purchased, and that water supply and other necessary conveniences should be permanently laid down, so that those camps may be available year after year for the training of the Territorial Army. I am convinced that, after the initial expense of the first two or three years, there would be a considerable saving every year. The initial expenditure would be made good by the saving on each subsequent year's camping, and I am convinced that not only would these camping grounds be more sanitary and satisfactory in every way, but that there would be a considerable saving to the War Office and the taxpayer by the provision of such camping grounds permanently, instead of their being changed year after year and considerable expense incurred in laying them down and tearing them up every year.
There is another suggestion that I want to make, and this deals also with the training of the Territorial Army. There is a rule in existence at the present time that men may not draw pay for any day on which any musketry training is done—that is to say, any musketry training which goes towards their standard of efficiency. For instance, this Easter, it is my intention to take a certain number of men down to camp, and those men will receive pay for the days when they are in camp; but, if I decide to do any musketry training—anything which counts towards the efficiency of those men—that pay will be withheld. I may remark, incidentally, that for some reason or other officers do not draw pay in any case, but that does not matter; what I am up against is the fact that the men's pay should be stopped if any musketry training is gone through at all. Easter is late this year, and the days are long, but it will be impossible to keep the men at drill or field work the entire day. They will have had enough of that by three or four o'clock in the afternoon, and there will still be three or four hours' good daylight when it will be difficult to find any work for them to do. It does seem to me absurd that, if we go on to the range and do any training which counts towards the annual efficiency of those men, their pay should be stopped. It is not as if it would cost the country any more to allow them their pay, because the country will save on the railway fares which, in existing circumstances, will have to be expended on their behalf for subsequent visits to the range. If their musketry course could be fired in the afternoon or evening during this Easter camp, it would save the country the railway fares which would have to be paid when they did go down ultimately to fire their standard test. I hope the Secretary of State will inquire into these one or two anomalies, and see if he can make things easier for those who have the efficiency of the training of the Territorial Army at heart.
There are one or two other points that I wish to raise on this Vote. Several speakers, in the course of the previous Debates, stressed the importance of the mechanicalisation of the various Services in the Army of the future, and the importance of having the very maximum amount of material at the disposal of the Army. By material I mean tanks, heavy guns, and machine guns. It is universally admitted that, the greater the amount of material at the disposal of the General Officer Commanding, the less will be the loss of life should we, unfortunately, find ourselves engaged in any other war. I particularly wish to make a point with regard to the question of machine guns. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that we have a sufficient supply of machine guns, and sufficient units for handling them? During the War we had our machine gun companies and our machine gun battalions, but, as far as I can make out, these have been done away with, and the machine guns, both Vickers and Lewis, have been placed once more under the orders and administration of the battalion commanders. I agree with that, and think it is right, but I do think it would be advisable that skeleton machine gun companies should be retained, so that, should the necessity arise, our machine gun strength could be rapidly developed, and the troops could rely on that wonderful amount of fire which can only be produced by machine guns.
It always seems to me that during the War we never exploited to its fullest capacity the wonderful power of the machine gun. It seemed to me that we were always rather behind the Germans in the handling and use of these weapons, that we had to learn from our enemies the proper way in which these weapons could be most effectively handled. Whenever I got an opportunity I always made a point of going over any of the enemy's positions which had been captured or abandoned, and I was always amazed at the wonderful preparations which had been made for developing the maximum amount of machine gun fire to beat back any attack which might develop. Of course, there is not the least doubt that it is in defence and in stationary warfare that the machine gun is at its very best, and the fact that the authorities consider that the next war, at any rate in its initial stages, will be a war of movement, may be the reason why they have done away with these machine gun companies, and restored the machine guns, both light and heavy, to battalion commanders. At the same time, it seems to me that occasions will arise on which it will be found necessary to mass these machine guns or brigade them, and that, under present conditions, can only be done by withdrawing, at any rate, the Vickers guns from the battalions, and placing them under the orders of the brigade commander. That would have the effect of depriving the battalion commander of his most effective defence against local attacks, and, therefore, I press the right hon. Gentleman to make careful inquiries and research, and see whether we have been right in doing away with the machine gun formations which existed during the War.
What I have said with regard to machine guns applies with equal weight to heavy artillery and to tanks, because it is by developing and exploiting those instruments of warfare to their utmost that we can avoid the appalling losses which we, unfortunately, suffered practically all through the War from 1914 to 1918. Nevertheless, when we succeeded in bringing up masses of guns and material to the extent that we could beat down the enemy's fire attacks, very frequently we were highly successful, and the loss of life was comparatively slight. In that great battle of the 8th and 9th August, 1918, to which I think General Ludendorff refers as the first irreparable disaster which the German arms received in the course of the War, that was almost entirely brought about—admitting, of course, the magnificent quality of the troops who were engaged—the comparatively insignificance of their losses was due almost entirely to the fact that such masses of guns, tanks and other material had been brought together as had never been massed on any battlefield before. The result was that, at any rate as far as two Armies were concerned, the objectives were attained with a loss of life and with casualties generally which were quite insignificant. Therefore, I do impress upon the Secretary of State for War that everything should be done that can be done, with due regard to economy, to maintain in fit and proper working order such heavy guns as we have in store, so that in the unfortunate event of another European War we should not be compelled to go into the war unprepared and unready as we were in 1914.
There is one further question I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman, and that is in regard to the 3'V pack howitzers which are to replace the light trench mortars in future. Are any of these howitzers already issued to units in this country? As far as I can make out, the light trench mortar has been withdrawn from the battalions, but no 3·7 pack howitzers have been issued to take their place, so that at the present time all the territorial battalions, and, I understand, a very great number of regular units, have been deprived of one weapon and the other one has not yet been substituted. Is it the intention that these guns should be under the organisation of the battalion, or are they to be worked and manned under the command of the Artillery, either the Field Artillery, the Horse Artillery or the Garrison Artillery?
I am afraid that hon. Members opposite will consider that my remarks are of too warlike a character. In view of the discussion last week, I think it is inexpedient to reduce the strength of the British Army, as was then suggested, to the equivalent of a brigade. I have not made my remarks to-day because I like war any better than hon. Members opposite like war. I have equal cause with the hon. Member, who moved the Amendment last week, for hating war, possibly I hate it as much as he does, but I cannot help thinking that, so long as human nature is what it is, a certain amount of preparedness is essential. One hon. Member opposite paraphrased, very skilfully, the old saying that if you want peace you must be prepared for war into the phrase that if you want peace you must be prepared for peace. I quite agree. I agree that it is necessary to adapt and to adopt a pacific, though not necessarily a pacifist, attitude with regard to armaments generally, but at the same time I believe that behind this pacific attitude there must be the will to fight if it is absolutely necessary in the last resource. The will to fight is not sufficient; there must be a certain amount of readiness and a certain amount of skill and preparedness behind it. Otherwise we shall find ourselves in the position we were in 1914, when we were plunged into the War utterly unprepared, with, the result that hundreds of thousands of our men were sacrificed whose lives, had we been better prepared, might have been spared.
Among the speeches that have been delivered during the passage of the Army Estimates, there has been a continual harking back to a subject which may seem rather foreign to the average layman. I refer to the recommendations of the Lawrence Committee. The remarks on this subject have differed widely. Some of them have been put forward in a hesitant spirit on the part of those who wish to inform the mind of the Secretary of State for War, but some of them have not been hesitant by any means; they have been very emphatic, especially the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Hodge). As my hon. and gallant Friend the Under-Secretary for War has already pointed out, the hon. and gallant Member for Preston has been pushing at an open door. He very heartily and warmly congratulated the War Office on issuing the Report of the Lawrence Committee.
It may be of interest to the House to know that the genesis of that Committee, which reported on 23rd October last year, lay in the main with the evidence that was given before the National Expenditure Committee in 1917 by Sir Charles Harris. It is due to Sir Charles Harris, in view of his recent resignation, to say that if the State owed nothing else to him, at least it is under a very great obligation to him for the evidence which was mainly responsible for the initiation of the Lawrence Committee. It was on that evidence that the right hon. Member for Colchester (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) set up the Committee, following on the Report of the Public Accounts Committee. The least we can say in this House concerning Sir Charles Harris is, that he was in the front line of those public servants who have made a worldwide reputation for the British Civil Service. Although I am young in these matters, I have learned to appreciate his wide range of knowledge, his great experience and, not least in dealing with these matters, his capacity for mental detachment which enabled him to put himself always in the place of the other person.
I want to tell the hon. and gallant Member for Preston that Sir Charles Harris, who was one of the keenest in propagating the views of the Lawrence Committee, was not quite so definite in some of his opinions as the hon. and gallant Member. It may be, as the hon. and gallant Members says, that there is room for difference of opinion, but to say that simply because one man expresses a diverse opinion from his own he stands for the suppression of the Lawrence Committee's recommendations, is not true. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the recommendations of the Lawrence Committee, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, are to receive very serious consideration from the War Office, but those recommendations cannot be put into operation in a day or two. There is quite a number of points which my hon. and gallant Friend raised on the last occasion and also to-day. He stated that the Estimates were misleading. I do not think that is the case. My hon. and gallant Friend said that we have £ 1,700,000 down for stocks. He is wrong. There is a sum of over £3,300,000 down as credit on stocks.
On a point of correction, may I say that the hon. Member is referring to an entirely different item? I referred in my speech last week and to-day to page 5 of the Estimates, Capital Accounts, and to a credit item of £1,701,000. I wish to submit to the Financial Secretary that although that item has been charged it has again been deducted, and that, therefore, the cost for the year has been misrepresented or under-represented by that amount.
The point I was making was, that the hon. Member said last week that on page 5 of the Estimates there was an item of £1,701,000 for credit. He is not quite right. If he looks at page 184 of the Estimates he will see that on Stock Accounts alone there is a net credit of £3,346,000, and if he looks on page 196 he will see the value of the stores estimated to be drawn from existing stocks during the year without replacement giving the net credit of £3,346,000. These Estimates are on cash account. The hon. and gallant Member has got some evidence from the Estimates which deals with stocks, which have nothing to do with the ordinary cash account.
On a point of Order—
There is no point of Order. The hon. and gallant Member has made his speech.
One point which the hon. and gallant Member made in his remarks during the Committee stage of the Estimates was, that he had had to look in three different parts of the accounts for the cost of remounts, and that that was a grave matter. He said he referred to different pages, and that the accounts were not in proper order and were misleading, because he had to look in one place for remounts, and in another place for the cost of staff officers. What does the hon. and gallant Member want to know? If he wants to know the cost of remounts, does he want the remounts to be classed with the staff officers, or does he want the staff officers to be classed with the remounts?
What are they doing? That is what I want to know.
The hon. and gallant Member put the point quite clearly in his last speech:
"I do not think it should be necessary to have to hunt in at least three different parts of the account when you wish to discover how much a particular Department is costing. Let us take, for example, the co6t of the remounts. If you look at page 130 you will find that cost of maintenance is shown at £119,980. On page 132 is shown the cost of horses boarded out, £13,150, and then I have to turn to another page, page 272, and I find that several retired officers engaged in this department cost £22,674." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th March, 1924; col. 2676, Vol. 170.]
I am not by any means a chartered accountant, but I know that the hon. and gallant gentleman put a most straight question. What he asked was why should he have to look in three different places in order to know what a certain Department cost. It seems to me he has got to go to one place for maintenance, another place for boarded-out horses, and' another place for retired officers. If he wants all these three matters put together in order to know what the Department costs he has got to make up his mind whether he wants the remounts put among the men or the men put among the remounts.
What are they doing?
My hon. and gallant Friend knows the work of these men. I wish to make clear that I think that the continued use of very strong terms in reference to certain corps and certain men who cannot answer their accusers is to be deprecated. The hon. and gallant Member seemed to imply that certain men were duds at their business.
I meant it, too.
These men cannot answer him, neither here nor anywhere else, and therefore I deprecate criticism of that character concerning any corps of men who, whether they are necessary or not, at any rate have carried out their duties to the best of their ability, and efficiently. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that there were certain paymasters and assistant paymasters who were not allowed to handle money because they were rankers. He said that assistant paymasters could not rise to higher position than that of a captain. Assistant paymasters can rise ultimately to the position of lieut.-colonel. I have great sympathy with the criticism as to rankers not being allowed to handle money, because they are rankers. I was very much moved when I heard this statement. I also was a ranker during the War, and I was not allowed to handle too much money, but that is the first explanation which I have heard. On the question of the Lawrence Committee's Report their recommendations are to be given full weight and put into operation as soon as possible, when they are considered suitable, but it is the opinion of those who have considered the matter that we ought to go carefully in the application of these recommendations lest we should do more harm than good. In the present lamentable state of human nature, I am afraid that not only the Army Pay Corps, but that even chartered accountants suffer from the weakness of seeking personal interest, which has been insisted upon so continuously throughout this Debate.
Is there any innuendo of any sort in the statement of the hon. Gentleman?
I should be extremely sorry if my hon. and gallant Friend were to interpret what I have said as a personal innuendo. All that I was thinking about was that throughout the Debate when referring to the Army Pay Corps my hon. and gallant Friend has not been wanting in making assertions that the personal interest of the Army Pay Corps was concerned in this matter. So I say to my hon. and gallant Friend, without being at all personal, that personal interests are not limited to the Army Pay Corps by any means, and it may be that chartered accountants also have that little weakness. Several questions were asked during the Debate in Committee. One was in reference to the Deptford market and the others were with reference to the removal of the dockyard, and wages and pensions. It is true that it has been decided to exercise the option to purchase the Deptford market, but at the same time it would be very difficult to answer the multitude of questions asked in connection with that particular matter, and so I would simply give the answer of my right hon. Friend that we are exercising our option of purchasing the Deptford market. The price has not yet been fixed. The Department are not taking over the statutory rights of the Corporation of London with regard to the market. The point as to what is the particular authority, to which a part of the market could be transferred for market purposes, will be considered when the Department goes into the matter in greater detail. That also is connected with the question of the removal of the dockyard to some extent, and I may inform the hon. Members for East Woolwich (Mr. Snell) and West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) that the workers' interests are being taken into consideration. As I said to my hon. Friend some days ago, in answer to a question, while questions of policy cannot be discussed, it is agreed that a Committee should be set up with a view to discussing the future of particular workers.
Will the workers be represented on that committee?
Certainly. Dealing with the question of wages, I think that the least said on this question at the present moment the better. Matters are in a delicate position, and yet they are in a hopeful position, and I am hopeful that, so far as the skilled workers are concerned, we shall 'be able to make a satisfactory arrangement.
Has the hon. Gentleman anything to say about the demands of the other men—the badly paid men?
As regards the unskilled and semi-skilled labour, my hon. Friend knows that there were advances some weeks ago ranging from 1s. 6d. to 3s. They were treated on a different basis on that occasion, but the whole matter is receiving consideration. The question of pensions has been under way since 1870. My right hon. Friend told the hon. Member that the matter must be referred to the Treasury, and the hon. Gentleman said, "Why should it go to the Treasury?" in a sort of "Away with the Treasury, down with the Treasury" frame of mind, with a kind of à la laterne gesture. I am afraid that the people who stand for economy are not exactly the people who will be able to abolish that very sturdy Department known as the Treasury. All I can say about the Treasury is that, as my hon. Friend says, we have been here for eight weeks and there are people who are very much surprised that, although Labour has been in power for something like eight weeks, nobody has yet been murdered. Indeed, my hon. Friend seems surprised that there is still a Treasury. He wants to know why this matter should be referred to the Treasury. We are giving serious consideration to this matter. We would like, if possible, to lead in a matter of this kind, but I will let him know effectively what we think about that matter when we receive the reply of the Treasury. My predecessor asked me several questions about preference.
There is the question of dismissal of the men of 60 and 65.
7.0 P.M.
As far as dismissals are concerned, they did not begin a week or two ago. As a matter of fact, my hon. Friend got quite indignant about a man who was discharged in 1922, and he seemed to blame the Labour Government for that. All I can say, as far as dismissals are concerned, is that they have take place in a normal way, because they were temporary hands. They were employed with the clear knowledge that their contract would end at a certain time, but upon this and other similar matters all we can say is that they will hate sympathetic consideration. May I, in conclusion, say concerning the matter of preference that we are really following the spirit of the policy, not only of the previous Government, but of many Governments in reference to contracts. We are not definitely pledging ourselves to preference, by any means, but, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War said, in answer to a question upon this matter:
"It is the practice of the Department to give preference within reasonable limits to goods and materials produced within the Empire."
We have had one instance, however, where it seemed to me that there were certain people who tried to take advantage of that particular arrangement. I want to say for myself, and I think for the Department, that where it is a question of taking an advantage to the extent of 35 per cent. we are not going to let the taxpayers of this country pay to that extent by any means. We are prepared to give sympathetic consideration to our own people at all times, but I am sure that this House and the hon. and gallant Gentleman who put the question and got indignant about it, would not have the taxpayers of this country pay over £50,000 for something worth £40,000, and we are certainly not going to pin ourselves down in matters of this kind, when it comes to something which affects the best interests of the taxpayers of this country. All I want, in conclusion, as one who has had for the first time to deal with some of the more complicated questions that have to be answered by a Financial Secretary for War, is to thank the House for its extreme sympathy, and at the same time to say that I hope that they will give us this Vote at an early hour, so that we can get on to the next Estimate in order to suit the mutual convenience of Members of all parties in this House by relieving us from the necessity of going beyond Eleven o'clock.
I do not propose to enter into the controversy between the Financial Secretary and the hon. and gallant Member for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Hodge) on the subject of Army accounts, because clearly they are both of them men in a position to know much more about that subject than a mere combatant soldier like myself. One is Financial Secretary and the other by his past experience is eminently capable of forming an opinion, although to judge by some of the physical jerks which punctuated his remarks one might have been led to think that he had belonged to a more active branch of the Army. I really rose to ask the Secretary of State two questions with regard to recruiting for the Army. The first is whether he has at his disposal any facts or figures which could show what the effect has been upon recruiting of the reintroduction of full dress review order and walking-out kit in the Guards and the Household Regiments, and whether those figures would lead him to believe that the extra expense entailed would be justified by the probable increase of recruiting if review order was adopted throughout the Army.
The other point is also in connection with recruiting, and is a district grievance and a sore point with many ex-regular soldiers, and sailors as well. When recruits are invited to enlist one of the advantages impressed upon them is the fact that when they finish their military career they will be entitled to preference at any rate in the giving of employment in Government Departments, and, in particular, in the Post Office. Before 1918 the Post Office officials dealt direct with an organisation of ex-soldiers and sailors called the United Association of Ex-Naval and Military Civil Servants. That body was in a position to provide the Post Office with ex-service men from either Service to fill the subordinate ranks of the Civil Service, and an undertaking was entered into by the Post Office that 50 per cent. of the vacancies in the Post Office should be filled by ex-soldiers and ex-sailors. Since 1918 this function of the United Association has been handed over to the Ministry of Labour, and the appointments are filled through the intervention of the Employment Exchanges. More recently still another factor has entered into consideration in this regard. There are two different types of ex-service men nowadays. There is the ex-regular long service man, both Army and Navy, and there is the ex-service man who was a duration of the War man, and who therefore had only a short service and had not broken his association with civil life to anything like the same extent as the long service man. I do not wish to do or to say anything prejudicial to the interests of the duration of the War man, whom everyone knows was just as good a fighting man in all branches of the Army as the old-time regular, but I do want to point out the fact that the duration of the War man has not been separated from civil life, and has therefore not lost touch with the possibility of getting civilian employment to anything like the same degree as the man who has completed 12 or perhaps even more years' service.
Since the Ministry of Labour undertook this function, the organisation which formerly dealt direct with the Post Office has been short-circuited, and more than that, the Employment Exchanges have been told, in spite of the undertaking entered into, that 50 per cent. of the Post Office jobs should be allotted to ex-Regular soldiers and sailors, that this instruction only applies to permanent employment and not to temporary-employment in the Post Office. In that connection, it is worth noticing that none of the jobs which are available in the Post Office service are, in the first instance, permanent jobs, as they are only temporary appointments, and from those temporary appointments the permanent appointments are filled up. So the ex-Regular long-service men find that, although the Employment Exchanges have orders that only they are to be considered for permanent employment, as a matter of fact many ex-hostility men are getting permanent employment through first getting the temporary jobs which are the only ones offered. There is, I understand, a regulation of the Poet Office to the effect that no ex-service man shall be considered for these appointments who has less than two years' service, but in spite of that regulation I understand that in many cases men with considerably less than the minimum service have been considered and even appointed. I would therefore suggest that the War Office make representations to the Post Office to adhere once more to the old practice of reserving 50 per cent. of their vacancies for the long-time ex-Regular soldiers and sailors.
If the Post Office feels that under existing conditions it is no longer possible to reserve all these appointments for the Regulars, but that ex-hostility men should be allowed an opportunity of competing for these appointments, then I suggest that the Secretary of State for War should make representations to the Post Office to induce that Office to adhere to its own Regulations, requiring a minimum of three years' service for these appointments. I would also urge the Secretary of State to insist on the advisability of Government Departments, and particularly the Post Office, when they are anxious to fill appointments of this nature with ex-service men, being authorised to deal directly and solely with this organisation, which is in touch with the ex-service men of all branches of the Service, and is in a position to vouch for the character and the reliability of every man that it recommends. I urge these points on the Secretary of State for two reasons. First, because the existing Regular soldiers and sailors feel that they have been, in vulgar parlance, let down, and, secondly, because I am confident that it is in the interests of recruiting, both for the Army and Navy and, incidentally, for the Air Force, that the recruits should know that when their period of active service comes to an end they will be guaranteed, or, at any rate, to a certain extent guaranteed, employment in civil life, to which they return after a break sometimes of many years.
The point raised by the last speaker, as to whether the Secretary of State could guarantee the employment of ex-soldiers after they leave the Colours, has puzzled the minds of many Secretaries of State during the last 30 or 40 years. I only hope that my right hon. Friend the present. Secretary of State may be more successful in solving that difficult problem than some of his predecessors. The Financial Secretary to the War Office replied to many points raised this afternoon, but he omitted, I am sure by inadvertence, to reply to three questions addressed to him by the hon. and gallant Member for Loughborough (Brig.-General Spears). One of them was a question of some substance—what action the War Office were to adopt in relation to the Weir Committee's report. I hope that before the question is put from the Chair later in the evening, the Under-Secretary of State may give my hon. and gallant Friend some idea as to the action or the mind of the War Office on that subject. In his opening statement the Financial Secretary paid a very well-deserved tribute to the work of Sir Charles Harris, and I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House, irrespective of party, felt profound regret when Sir Charles Harris retired from the Finance Branch of the War Office. He has left his mark on that Department, and the Estimates which we are discussing now are a striking testimony to his foresight and his ability to present accounts which hon. Members may understand and the public outside may more readily grasp.
The hon. Member, like the Secretary of State, was a little doubtful as to what action he would take on the Lawrence Report. But the Under-Secretary of State invited the opinion of Members on that subject. We may be encouraged, therefore, to impress on the Secretary of State that this Report should be adopted. While I say that, it is rather difficult to know what the Report may recommend, for there are six recommendations in it. The first, all the Members of the Committee are unanimous upon, but at the end of the Report the Members of the Committee recommend that a further Committee be appointed to deal with five out of the six recommendations. I hope, therefore, that the Secretary of State will press to a conclusion the work initiated by Sir Charles Harris, and carry out, not only the form of accounts which he has presented, but carry out the spirit also. I hope that the Secretary of State will be encouraged by the views expressed from all parts of the House to-day to adopt in their entirety the recommendations of that Report.
The Secretary of State is, no doubt, aware that during the last few years hon. Members in all parts of the House have taken a keen interest in the cost of administration. While we welcome the reduction in the cost of administrative services this year, yet I am bound to say that I think there is considerable room for further reduction. In the Estimates now before the House it will be found, on page 29, that the cost of the fighting service is reduced by 3¾ millions. The cost of the administrative service is reduced by only £714,000; in other words, the War Office have curtailed the cost of the fighting service by as much as £3,750,000, but the cost of the administrative service has ben reduced by only £714,000. Putting it in another way, for every £100 spent on the fighting service, the cost of the administrative service is £17. This House and the country are anxious to secure value for the money which is placed at the disposal of the Government, and I hope that the Secretary of State in the ensuing months may direct his attention to the very large cost still of the administrative services of His Majesty's Army. An analysis of the Estimates reveals that the Government are asking the country to spend £1,250,000 on new works. Surely, in view of the large sum spent before the War and during the War on the erection of buildings and the manifold requirements of a modern army, it should not be necessary to-day to come forward with proposals for new works which will cost, when completed, £1,250,000? I do not suggest that in the present Estimates £1,250,000 is to be spent on these works, but that will be the total liability. I had hoped that the Secretary of State would cut down some of the Estimates prepared by his predecessors. Surely there is room for a further cut in these new works. Take another item. The cost of the cavalry this year is £1,250,000. The new Tank Corps costs the same. Surely, with a modern army, in view of the experiences of the last War, it would be advisable to spend more on the Tank Corps and less on the Cavalry Corps.
It is £1,750,000.
Then I have understated the case. The main point before the House is, Are these Estimates too large for our needs or for the financial interests of the day? That is the broad question before every hon. Member. On looking abroad, I see that during the last eight years this country has undertaken new commitments in different portions of the globe. My plea this afternoon is that the Government should withdraw and curtail our commitments in distant parts, in Mesopotamia and elsewhere, so that in the coming months the Estimates might show a large reduction, which could be passed on to the taxpayer. When I think of our commitments abroad and the outpouring of money in these distant places, the thought present to my mind is that Britain sends her troops to these places and they are maintained there through the labour of our people in this country. I know that the Government have been in office only a few weeks, and that it would not be fair to press them too much on these subjects. But I hope that the policy which makes these Estimates necessary may be revised, in view of our commitments and our financial needs to-day, so that when the Secretary of State comes before this House next year he will not say, as he did to-day, "These are the Estimates of my predecessor, and I present them with confidence to this House," but will come rather in the spirit in which, looking abroad and seeing our nation powerful and respected, he will say, "We have curtailed our commitments in these distant parts. We are, therefore, reducing the size of our Army because our needs are so much reduced," and thereby be enabled to pass on these reductions to the taxpayers of this country.
There is one question I wish to raise. It has not been raised before. It is the question of our Reserves, and the abolition of the Special Reserve. Everyone who had any experience of the Special Reserve during the last War realised, when mobilisation came, how extraordinarily useful they were for the purpose of training recruits and supplying our battalions abroad. What have we in their place? We are told to-day that there is a Supplementary Reserve. But most of those Supplementary Reserves are technical men, motor car drivers and electricians, who need no training. The remainder are 2,000 officers and between 7,000 and 8,000 men, and the only training they will have will be attachment to different Territorial battalions. Why should it not be possible to keep alive the old Special Reserve by putting these men and officers into different battalions? To-day on mobilisation we would have our reserve which I am glad to see has been increased by some 10,000 men, but we found at the outbreak of the War that our depots were flooded, and we could not cope with the Reserves when they came up, and were only too glad to be able to pass them on to our Special Reserve battalions. Has the right hon. Gentleman considered this point? Can he say what there is to replace these Special Reserve battalions, which did extraordinarily valuable work in the War? In the event of our unfortunately being again drawn into a European conflict, where should we be without them? I ask the right hon. Gentleman to direct his attention most carefully that that consideration. To-day they are in the position of being "nobody's children." They are "on their own," and I ask the Secretary of State, is it not possible to utilise these officers and men in forming Special Reserve battalions to take the place of those which have been done away with?
There are three points which I desire to submit to the consideration of the Secretary of State in the belief that they are of some importance. The first relates to the question of mechanicalisation, and deals with machine guns. It seems to me the present organisation of the Army in the matter of machine guns indicates that we have not learned or, if we learned it, that we have forgotten one of the lessons of the War. In the organisation of the Army before 1914 heavy machine guns were included in the battalion strengths. The War taught us that to get the best effect out of heavy machine guns a different principle should be adopted, and accordingly they were first brigaded and then divisionalised, and the most satisfactory formation was found to be that of a machine gun battalion, the reason being that if infantry soldiers are equipped plentifully with Lewis automatic rifles—as ours were—heavy machine guns may be more advantageously employed in group firing under separate direction, particularly in indirect firing. The present organisation as I understand it is, that in each battalion there is a machine gun platoon. That, in a sense, carries out one of the lessons of the latter part of the War which was that heavy machine guns supply an extremely valuable addition to the fire power given by the automatic rifle, if employed under the direction of a battalion commander or even a company commander on the spot. It is, however, very desirable that the question of indirect fire should not be overlooked, and in disbanding the Machine Gun Corps it seems to me we have taken a retrograde step.
Were war on an European scale to break out there is very little doubt—as I am sure my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) will agree—that it would be necessary to take the machine gun platoons away from their battalions and first form them into machine gun companies and, later on, divisionalise them in machine gun battalions. I quite realise that this step has been taken in order to comply with the demand for economy and because it was felt that the most useful way in which machine guns could, in general terms, be employed was to have them in the battalions. Has the Secretary of State considered that in the event of war breaking out on a European scale it is advisable that there should be available the nucleus of a machine gun corps? Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of creating Territorial machine gun battalions in connection wth the Territorial Force scheme? I have discussed this proposition with distinguished military authorities in this country, and whilst they are of opinion that in the interests of the efficiency of the Army it was a great pity the Machine Gun Corps was ever disbanded, and that the most advantageous thing to do would be to reform the Machine Gun Corps, they expressed considerable approval of the suggestion that Territorial machine gun battalions should be formed for the purpose of creating a nucleus force in the event of large operations being necessary.
The second point on which I wish to question the Secretary of State is with regard to co-operation between air forces and land forces. Nobody nowadays disputes the necessity for an independent Air Force under independent command for air force operations, as distinct from land operations or sea operations. There is, however, quite a large measure of opinion in the country very strongly in favour of the idea that it is necessary for land forces to have at their disposal aircraft for their own particular operations. The exact size of the formation to be attached to a division or a corps as the case may be is purely a matter for the experts. I am quite sure if the General Staff were told they could have the assurance that as part of the mobilisation scheme aircraft would be attached to land force formations, they would say it was desirable. I think the ideal to be aimed at is to give each division one squadron for reconnaisance and other purposes, or if that is regarded as too large and too expensive, then at least there should be a squadron to each corps. It is not only a question of reconnaisance. Very important combined operations can be carried out by aircraft and land forces. An hon. Member in this Debate has referred to experiences during and after the battle on 8th August, 1918. During those operations, very successful experiments were made in combining attacks from air and land on strong points, and on detachments which were holding up the advance in particular spots. There were numerous illustrations during the German break-through earlier in that year, of our Air Force making most valuable contributions to stabilising the situation by attacks from the air on the advancing forces of the enemy. If the best results are to be obtained from operations of this kind, it is absolutely essential that there should be constant cooperation between the Air Force and the Army and that the forces operating with the Army, for the purposes of these particular land operations as distinct from air operations, should be under military command. That is a very important principle which is perhaps escaping notice to-day.
The third point on which I ask for information is the question of training grounds. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that the existing training grounds for the Regular Forces are sufficient? My belief is that our training grounds are too limited in extent when we take into account the development of modern armies. I suppose for reasons of economy it is not practical politics, but I wish it were possible when manoeuvres are being carried out by the Regular troops—I do not lay it down as essential for the Territorial Forces—that the tanks should actually co-operate with the Infantry instead of being represented by painted boards carried on G.S. waggons or limbers. I presume the answer to that suggestion is that if tanks were to be operated over a thickly populated country and over country such as that utilised for the manœeuvres, so much damage would be done that the operations would be too costly to be practicable. Is the Secretary of State prepared to consider whether there are not parts of the country which are so thinly populated and of so little use for agricultural purposes that it would be possible for the Regular Forces to carry out periods of training with the tanks? My own very small experience is that it is worth any amount of participation in manœuvres of the existing type to have infantry trained in actual co-operation with actual tanks. Further, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the existing range accommodation is adequate? I am inclined to believe that for machine-gun training nowadays it is necessary to make use of the artillery ranges, and if that be so it is very necessary that the War Office should—even though it means a little additional expense—consider the acquisition of further premises to be devoted exclusively to machine gun firing. It is not a question of utilising musketry ranges, but of having ranges on which a proper programme of indirect fire can be carried out. On those three points I hope the Secretary of State or a representative of his Department will give some reply in the course of the Debate.
I wish to refer briefly to the point raised by several speakers, namely, the breaking up of the Machine Gun Corps. Before I went to the War Office I had a good deal of sympathy with the view which has been expressed, and in fact I remember raising the matter when Mr. Churchill was Secretary of State. My subsequent consideration of the matter led me to the opinion that in urging the Machine Gun Corps we were attaching too much importance to the very special conditions of the last War. There is no doubt for the special necessities which developed in connection with that warfare it was absolutely imperative to keep machine guns in large formations so as to be able to develop a highly organised barrage fire. But that is by no means the typical work of the British Army as now organised. In the War we had the Army organised on a national basis. Now we have gone back to a constabulary Army, which have to consider the problem of defence, as a cadre , no doubt, but they also have to consider the constabulary problems of guarding the marches of the Empire. In mountain warfare and in the small expeditions which the Army must so often envisage under present conditions, I am quite convinced that the battalion responsibility for the machine guns is the best.
There is this further point, quite apart from the defence consideration, that for training, with your limited Vote for personnel, you could not divert more men from the battalion organisation without disastrous results to efficiency. At the present time the infantry battalion establishment in this country on a peace basis is 28 officers and 763 men. The House will remember that only lately we have doubled up two battalions to conform to the cadre necessity, and unless you can manage to train less than 763 men you cannot have a machine gun corps without a larger Vote for personnel. I am afraid the necessities of economy are so great that it is not practicable to ask the country at the present time to give more men. Every commanding officer tells me the same story, that it is a great problem, with all the employed men, to get enough men out on parade for efficient training, and really, in view of the great Territorial Associations which attach to our old battalions, with all their distinguished records, I think, when you have to choose between disbanding more battalions and keeping up an admittedly admirable, but a new, organisation of the Machine Gun Corps, the War Office did right in giving the preference to the maintenance of our old Territorial formations.
Perhaps I might be allowed, at this rather late hour, to refer to a few of the very many points which have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) spoke of the high cost of the administrative services. In directing attention to the fact that those services seemed to represent one-sixth of the total cost, I think he really had not paid attention to the last paragraph in the Memorandum issued a week or two ago. It will be seen that the non-effective services for 1924–5 represent £7,834,000, or quite one-sixth of the total Vote. That is really not administration in the ordinary sense of the word. A great deal of that—about £1,000,000—had to be found because of the grant of a largely increased rate of pensions to all those who had served in the Great War, with the result that, while the older pensions, which are dying out in the ordinary course, are still on the low pre-War rates, the new pensions, which are growing year by year, are at much higher rates. Another contributory cause is the increase of old scale pensions of under £100 a year, in accordance with the policy of the Pensions Increase Act. While, of course, I do not think any Member of this House will complain of the pensions, still this growth of expenditure, to which my hon. Friend referred, is inevitable under the conditions of past years, and probably in a year or two there will be an even more formidable increase than at the present time.
In respect to the general expenditure, it is quite true that I took over the Estimates of my predecessors, but I took them over after very honest investigation, within the limit of time at one's disposal, of course, and I certainly in the Department gave the best attention I could to them, and I am satisfied that my predecessors did all that was possible under existing conditions to combine efficiency with economy. My hon. Friend urged upon me that I should put into operation all the provisions and recommendations of the Lawrence Committee at once. Really, when hon. Members consider that that Report was only made last October, and that the whole country has been overturned from top to bottom in that time, it really is not an agreed Report in the sense that it is not capable of having a good many points reconsidered, but I promised my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Hodge) that so soon as the Army Council met we would go into the matter. We are all agreed as to the desirability of reducing expenditure and bringing it within efficient methods, so that a real control shall be exercised. I believe myself that during the last six or seven years an increasing control and a more effective control year by year has been attained, but if it be possible—and I think it is—we will go into the matter very quickly, to see how far the provisions of the Report can be actually put into direct operation, and I can assure my hon. Friends that we have every desire to increase the amount of effective control over the accounts of the Army. I am sure the discussion has been very useful, and we will give the very beet consideration to the points raised. Our determination is to make the Report one of real usefulness, and that its effect shall be an increased control over the expenditure of the Army.
There have been a good many apprehensions expressed as to the machine guns. I can only say that, so far as my knowledge goes, our strength in machine guns is substantially greater than it was at the end of the War, when, I think it will be admitted, our machine gun strength was really very high, and subsequent Governments have not let that strength down.
There is a distinction here. In light machine guns, that is, in Lewis automatic rifles, there is an increase, but in heavy machine guns the amount is the same, although they are differently grouped.
As a matter of fact, the provision of machine guns per division is appreciably greater to-day than it was at the end of the War. Of course, I have not been over the various depots to see them, and can only go by the information placed at my disposal, but I am certain that the people in the Department, who have very high responsibilities, would not wilfully mislead me, and my information is to the effect that the machine gun provision is substantially greater to-day than it was at the end of the War, when, admittedly, we were in a very good position. I will not carry that point any further, but my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) seems inclined to take what I have said with a grain of salt, and I will go further into the matter.
I would not dream of taking with a grain of salt anything that the Secretary of State said. I would not be so impudent. Of course, I accept what he gays, but I think the confusion has arisen because his informants have grouped together both the light and heavy machine guns. I understand there is one platoon of heavy machine guns to a battalion, each platoon numbering four guns; that is to say, there are 64 guns per division.
I could not follow my hon. and gallant Friend into the technical distinction that he has raised. He may be quite right In raising the distinction, but this has just been put into my hands, and it says: "There are more heavy machine guns per division now than at the end of the war." My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock spoke about lessening our commitments in Iraq. As a matter of fact, we really have now very few commitments in Iraq at all. The number of men now in Iraq, which are simply put upon our Vote as numbers, but for which the Colonial Office is responsible, is reduced in this year by more than 6,000. It was 10,000 odd last year, and this year it is about 4,100. I am speaking quite from memory, but I know there is a reduction of over 6,000.
8.0 P. M.
A good deal has been said about the Supplementary Reserve. They will have a liability to go abroad with the Expeditionary Force on mobilisation, just as, indeed, the old Militia had. 8.0 P.M. This is not on the same lines entirely as the Territorials, for whom, as we know, there have to be a special Army Council Instruction, and a special law passed calling them out, and they only go, of course, when the ordinary Regular Forces have been despatched.
May I ask if anything is to take the place of the Special Reserve?
The question of the Special Reserve is met by the establishment of this Supplementary Reserve. I do not know any special point in the Special Reserve that existed at the outbreak of war which would not be met by the Supplementary Reserve.
The Special Reserve are trained in battalions, whereas it is proposed that the Supplementary Reserve are only to be attached to different battalions.
That is quite true, but I know of no practical purpose that would not be served by these men, because they will take duty overseas. Those who do not possess the technical knowledge will undergo a certain training, while those who do possess the technical knowledge need not undergo that training. They will take service overseas if necessary.
If those Territorial battalions to which they are attached have to be sent abroad, how are the reinforcements for the original Regular battalions to be trained?
That is a matter which will have) to be dealt with. It is a kind of regimental point which I should require a little more time to go into.
It is a very important point.
I am not denying it is important. I am not supposed here, as a pure layman who has only recently taken office, to answer on a matter of that kind, which is one for the Army chiefs and not one for a person in my office. That point has never been answered by my predecessor.
But this Supplementary Reserve is a perfectly, new system.
No. This Supplementary Reserve, as a matter of fact, is not a new thing on the Estimates of this year.
Of course the old Special Reserve was the Militia, and this has more or lees supplanted it, but it does not exist as Regular battalions to-day as did the Special Reserve. When battalions had to be sent abroad, the Special Reserve acted as training and supplying grounds for all the detachments that had to be sent abroad. Now you are throwing the work on the Territorial battalions, and if the Territorial battalions have to be sent abroad, there is no place except the depots now left in which you can train.
That is a matter of organisation which can be dealt with by the chiefs of the Departments responsible. I will see that that particular point is brought to their notice with a view to seeing if there is any lapse in the organisation and if anything can be done on the lines suggested.
This is an important point. In the Special Reserve the general rule always was that one battalion was in England on home service and one was in India or on Colonial service, but when both were out of the country there was no depot at all except that in charge of the third battalion of Special Reserve. The same applies to other battalions of the Army. This is an important point upon which Army officers feel strongly.
I can only answer that it this is a point where there does seem to have been some lapse in the efficiency of the organisation I will bring it before my advisers in the War Office, because only they are competent to speak, and not myself. To-night there has been a good deal of debate upon almost every point raised. A great deal has been said about the inflated numbers of the War Office staff and the staff of Commands and the people engaged in administration. When we consider the immense variety of service that has to be performed, the immense correspondence, its inevitability, its great mass—because to-day there are thousands upon thousands of correspondents where before the War they could be counted by tens or hundreds—the need for the larger staffs can be appreciated. Correspondence alone has increased by over 60 per cent. as compared with pre-War years, and that correspondence is immensely more complicated than that which existed before the War. Hon. Members know that for themselves by the infinite variety of the questions that come to them from their constituents. Our one anxiety is that our people shall feel confident that they are having fair treatment and that Members of Parliament, when receiving letters from their constituents, may feel that, whatever may be said about the War Office, the people inside are doing their best to deal with all grievances on equitable lines. All this requires a much larger staff than could possibly have been visualised ten years ago. Correspondence, as I have said, has increased by 60 per cent., and the civil staff has increased by 48 per cent. It was 1,611 inside the office in 1914; it is 2,387 now, but when you consider that many of these people are ex-soldiers and disabled soldiers, men who have done their best for the State, men who on every consideration of fair treatment and sympathy would have to be provided for in some form, and when you consider the immensely increased correspondence, you can realise the present state of affairs. These men in many cases are doing extremely good work. I do not think it could be said that the disabled men are not earring their pay and earning it handsomely, but this is a kind of thing which the good sense of hon. Members will enable them to realise. This is the kind of thing which is the reason for the appreciable, I will say the substantial, increase in the staff of workers in the Department itself.
The War Office staff and the staffs of Command are substantially less than last year. This year we are estimating a little over 1,000—that is the military staffs of Command and of the War Office—which is substantially the lowest figure that has existed for many years. Many points have to be gone into. Hon. Members have had in their hands for three weeks a memorandum we issued on the general case, and they have had in their hands the Estimates for nearly a fortnight, and every matter has been debated with great authority in many cases. I would be delighted if the House would give us the Vote for the men and I appeal that the Vote be now granted.
Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, will he deal with the question of co-operation between the Air Forces and the Land Forces.
As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, the whole question as to whether there should be a divided responsibility or a direct responsibility came up in this House several years ago, and it was agreed ultimately that there should be a direct responsibility for each Force. So far as I know, at every point where the Air Force and the Land Force are in that direct contact there is nothing but the most efficient inter-communication between the two authorities, whether it be in Palestine or Iraq or on the North Western Frontiers of Persia or Egypt. At every point where it is necessary to maintain effective contact and to work in unison, I have no knowledge at the moment of anything but the most happy relationships. Here again it is a point that may in future possess much more importance than it seems to possess at the present time. It is, however, a point that might very well be brought to the notice of those responsible.
Do they carry out combined training?
I am informed that combined training is carried out. As to whether the arrangements can be made more effective in the future, I will make inquiries, and I will see that that point is borne in mind. For myself, I do not see that under the existing conditions there is any great necessity for anything being done at the present time. I would now appeal that the Vote be granted.
I do not propose to keep the Committee for more than a moment, or to ask the Secretary of State to wait very long for his Vote, but there seems to be some misunderstanding with respect to the Supplementary Reserve. I think that is a matter that ought to be cleared up. There seems to be an impression that this Supplementary Reserve was to take the place of the Special Reserve, but, as far as I can see, it is almost purely technical, and there is not likely to be any filling up of battalions abroad with fighting troops. It was suggested from the Front Opposition Bench last week that the word "Supplementary" was not exactly a happy one to apply to this new arm. I would suggest that there should be a better name. If we are to have a Special Reserve, could we not have a National Reserve? I think it would have a great effect in helping recruiting. From what I can make of it, the Supplementary Reserve would consist mainly of engineers, signallers, railway staff, and such specialists, and they are mostly to be attached for training to Territorial units. Whit effect is this going to have on recruiting for Territorial units? Because this new arm are to receive, in addition to their Territorial pay and allowances, considerable bounties each year of £8, £12, £16 or £20. There is bound to be some trouble if two men serving side by side in one unit are paid at a different rate, and I would suggest that it would be far better if this new technical Reserve actually joined the Territorial Army and served at least one year with that force, and then were drafted into the new Reserve. It would give an opportunity of finding out whether the men were capable and effective at their work. It is quite likely that we may be able to recruit this technical Reserve, because of the bounties offered, but it would appear that something is needed. Certainly the engineers and the signallers in the Territorial Force at the present time are very much below establishment, and I know throughout the country every effort is being made to fill up the Engineering and the Signalling Services, but without effect. It is quite likely that this bounty of from £8 to £20 a year will bring forth the 15,000 men who are required for the coming year, but I do suggest that the Secretary of State should watch very carefully what the effect is going to be on Territorial recruiting. He certainly will have a difficulty in filling up Territorial units with men who are simply to receive Territorial pay and allowances, when another body of men is not only co receive Territorial pay and allowances, but a bounty of from £8 to £20 a year as well.
There was one matter mentioned this afternoon about which we have not heard very much, and that was vocational training. One hon. Member opposite stated that vocational training in the Army was not really very useful. In my opinion vocational training is very useful, and should be encouraged and developed. I quite agree it is impossible to turn out an expert bricklayer in the last 12 months of a man's service, but there are many other vocations to which these men can be sent. At the present time I know many men who are working at boot-repairing, which they learnt in the Army. There is a great shortage of many other classes of men who easily could be trained under this vocational system, and I do ask the Secretary of State to see that it is developed to its fullest extent.
In view of the fact that a very large sum of money is being spent on the Army, I should like to impress, not only on the House but on the Secretary of State for War what, in my opinion, is the great necessity of spending such sums as has to be spent on modern implements of war and not wasting it on more or less obsolete arms. On the question of obsolete arms, let me first deal with the Cavalry, and I am quite aware that when I am dealing with this arm I shall be very strenuously opposed by those Members who belong to that arm, but I think it must be conceded, and it undoubtedly is by those who have had experience of modern warfare, that cavalry is not only the most vulnerable arm of the Service, but is rapidly becoming obsolete. If we take the main theatre of the late War, those who were on the Somme will remem- ber, as I do, that a number—probably over a quarter of a million—of cavalry, with all their stores, officers and men, were kept there month after month, and, I might almost say, for a year, waiting for an opportunity which never arose. The waste of public money due to the error in judgment of those who sent out those cavalry is not, I hope, likely to be forgotten easily. It was at a time when the Army was crying for a million men, and a million men were asked for in England. I understand that everybody who was dealing with the question of raising men went over England with a hay-rake to pick up anything they could, while right alongside on the Somme were trained men who were never used, but were kept there waiting for an opportunity which, as cavalry, they never got.
I merely mention that in order to show how little the cavalry was used in the main theatre of war during the only modern war which we know. I am aware that cavalry was used in Palestine, but I am not yet satisfied, and I do not think I ever will be, that all that the cavalry did there could not have been done just as well by the Auto-Chenille and by aeroplanes. Of course, one cannot expect a cavalryman to agree, but my belief is—and it is held by a great number of men with far greater experience than I have had—that cavalry for the future will only be used in small areas against native tribes. So much for the cavalry, and I suggest that the Secretary of State for War should look very closely indeed into the amounts that he has been asked to spend on that arm, and not allow himself to be led away by the enthusiasm and the vested interests of those who hold the view that this most vulnerable and almost obsolete arm of the Service should be kept up. If we are going to have another war, and probably we shall, then let us be first in the field with modern implements of war, and not wait till others get them before us. It is within the memory of the House that at the beginning of the War we were behind almost every nation in artillery. In high explosives, we were the last to equip our artillery with that most modern and most death-dealing implement of war. Incidentally, I may mention in passing that in the early days after the Retreat, at Givenchy and Festubert, I asked for high explosives, and was told they had only 300 rounds. I asked for the lot, and got it all and used it. This was the beginning of the use of high explosive, which afterwards became universal, and when its use became known in England, practically nothing else for months and years was manufactured and sent out. Incidentally, I think I am in order in impressing upon the Secretary of State for War, no matter what he may be told by those who are in possession, and have been for years at the War Office, that high explosive is most necessary in modern war, and I speak with great feeling because I was laughed at when I started using it in 1914. As he and others know in this House, that was the one thing which the artillery wanted in the beginning, and they did not get it till near the close of the War.
Now I turn to the artillery, my own blanch, which in my opinion is also rapidly becoming obsolete. My reason for saying this is that on the score of economy. On the score of accuracy and rapidity, aeroplanes, for long-range bombardment, are a long way ahead of any artillery that can he brought into the field to-day. Putting the matter shortly, I will remind hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that at a range of, say, 10,000 to 14,000 yards where the gunner cannot see where his projectile is falling it is impossible for him to correct "on the fall of his round," which is the usual method of procedure. Not only is the rate of fire slow and the inaccuracy appalling, but there is the difficulty of getting the shells up to the guns, although they may be three or four miles behind the front lines. The trouble of keeping the ammunition supplied requires not only ships to carry it across the water to where-ever the theatre of war is, but the transport wagons and the wagons for bringing it anywhere near the front have to be considered too. If you substitute aeroplanes for guns, which, for every purpose I know, except for penetration are just as death-dealing and infinitely quicker than the best long-range guns, for bombardment, the aeroplanes can pick up their bombs in place of shells, and they have a range not of 14,000 yards or thereabouts but of 70 or 100 miles. Their rate of fire is quicker. They can attack any place they are told to attack relatively speaking within a few minutes, whereas it is within the knowledge of hon. Mem- bers that very often it takes three quarters of an hour before the first round is fired from any heavy gun.
Aeroplanes, then, have the advantage not only for range but for accuracy and speed, and, in addition, economy. It is obvious, it is common knowledge, that aeroplanes can be supplied at infinitely less cost than can artillery. They are infinitely more useful, you do away with the heavy expense and difficulty of heavy transport trains, ships and so on, and also—and I am coming to this point directly—there is the question of transport horses and the difficulty and trouble and expense that they entail. The use of aeroplanes of all sorts are indicated for every form for gas barrage. Gas bombardments, undoubtedly, will play a most important part in any modern war. Aerial bombardment is in every way more suitable for this purpose than the firing of shells from guns. It does away with the difficulty of leakage and other disabilities and also the large amount of cost. They also envelop the objective more quickly. Here I might venture to point out that the accuracy now obtained by airmen on indicated targets is remarkable. It is extraordinary the great accuracy with which a target can be hit by aeroplane. So much, then, for what, in my view and that of many other soldiers, is and will be the greatest arm of the Service in any modern war.
Dealing with the question of captive balloons, I should like to say that undoubtedly they are becoming more used in warfare every day. Balloons are the eyes of the Army, and, in conjunction with motor cycles, do away with what was originally the use of cavalry—that is scouting. In that respect, therefore, I hope that the Secretary of State for War will consider the question of spending every penny that he can, every penny that he is allowed to, on the output of balloons.
Then there is the question of mechanicalisation, which is one of the most necessary things in the whole of the Army. When one comes to consider the enormous amount of time and men required to keep up the transport of the artillery, the Army Service Corps, the infantry battalions, and every other form of the Service, under the old and obsolete method of mule or horse transport, one must realise the enormous advantages, not only in speed and mobility, but also in economy, in adopting some form or other of mechanical transport, or the French auto-chenille, which is now able to get over every form of ground. My own experience, last season, just a year ago, when I went up over 6,000 feet in six or eight feet of snow up the side of a mountain without any difficulty whatever, showed me that if it can do that on soft snow, which is at best rather slippery, it can certainly do it on ordinary ground, and we know it can do it on sand. I should like very strongly to put to hon. Members and to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War the advisability, if not the necessity, of seeing that the Army is equipped, not with an obsolete animal like the horse or mule, but with the best form of auto-chenille or some form of tractor for every branch where traction is required.
Pausing for one moment on that, during the second or third year of the War I asked to be allowed to raise an artillery brigade, which was entirely to be entirely equipped with tractors. I was laughed at. The project was turned down. I had the pleasure of listening recently to an announcement made by the Secretary for War in which he said he had been present at an experimental journey of 60 miles in which everything went extremely well, and it showed that when suggestions of the kind are made they are very often turned down with but little reason. I am satisfied, and I think the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied, as to the enormous advantage of bringing in that form of tractor which is characterised by speed, efficiency, and economy. Whilst on that point—
I would only interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that I did not say I was present. I said such an experiment had taken place.
I do not want to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman; I should be sorry to do that. My point is that if he was not present he was well satisfied—I think I am right in saying that—of the enormous advantage of these mechanical replacements of the Army. I suggest that he should consider this more seriously not only for all forms of transport, and not only for the artillery, but also for the Army Service Corps, and for all forms of supplies for all the Services. Consider the enormous economy thereby accruing. If one comes to think of the number of men required to look after the horses in the line, these men to be used for nothing else but attending to the horses, for their food and water; again when one realises the number of ships required to bring these supplies across the sea and the wagons and horses required to bring them to the front, it will, I think, be allowed that not only will there be very large saving, but there will be economy and efficiency as the result of adopting the mechanicalisation of the Army. If I may say so with all humility, I approach this question not as one who has only just approached it, but as one who has considered it in its most practical form for many years before it was raised in this Debate.
I come now to one of the most important questions of the whole Army, either in peace or war, and that is the question of liaison . We did not have it sufficiently in the late War, except towards the end, and the absence of liaison was often very disastrous. I remember on more than one occasion when on the Somme front, and also at Ypres, a division coming in to the line and having no knowledge of what division was next door to it, or where headquarters were, where they could ask for assistance in case of difficulty. This could not have occurred if there had been proper liaison . Incidentally I may mention that at the beginning of the War there was no such thing as a liaison officer. The term was borrowed from the French, and the French Army was well supplied with such officers, as we were also at a later date in the War. I thank the House for the kind way in which they have listened to my first effort which one has to make at some time or other.
May I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down upon the speech which he has delivered, because it shows at once that he has studied his subject well, and I am sure he has convinced others as he has convinced me, that he thoroughly knows the subject upon which he has been speaking. It brings back vividly to my memory the late War when he refers to the cavalry and the transport difficulties on the Somme. I was there myself, and I have a vivid recollection of the cavalry arriving in 1916 at places where we did not expect cavalry. I was in a district between Albert and Braye when cavalry turned up almost in thousands from nowhere, and marched across the hills at the back of us. The Germans saw them, and immediately began to shell us. I ask the Secretary of State for War to seriously consider the uses to which cavalry can be put. We were told by intelligence officers during the War what the cavalry was doing, and how they had advanced to places all over the country—
The hon. Member must connect his remarks and reminiscences with the Vote under discussion.
I do not think cavalry are going to be of the slightest use, and we are wasting money in keeping large numbers of them still in existence. I agree that cavalry are very impressive for ceremonial purposes, such as guarding Whitehall. With regard to ammunition, I wonder whether the War Office is paying enough attention to the development of high explosives and gas shells. Have guns been developed which will fire as far as some of the German guns did during the War, that is, a distance of nearly 50 miles? Have we any guns like that? Are we developing a very deadly gas shell and a large one? I think it is much better to fire very large and deadly shells than little ones. Has the attention of the Government been directed to the production of a deadly gas shell, a very efficient highly-explosive shell, and a deadly shrapnel? I also wish to emphasise the necessity for efficient mechanical transport, because during the late War horses died in great numbers from overwork and fatigue on long marches. If we can substitute mechanical means of drawing guns and carriages, we shall be doing a great humanitarian action. Anyone with any vision must realise how necessary mechanical transport really is.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
REPORT [20th March]
Resolutions reported,
Air Estimates, 1924–25
1. "That a number of Air Forces, not exceeding 35,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,941,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of His Majesty's Air Force at home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,127,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of the Works, Buildings, Repairs, and Lands of the Air Force, including Civilian Staff and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,452,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transport of the Air Force, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £5,700,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of Technical and Warlike Stores of the Air Force (including Experimental and Research Services), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
Navy Estimates, 1924–25
6. "That 100,500 Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea Service, together with 287 for the Marine Police, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £14,245,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925."
8. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,080,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at home and abroad, including the cost of Superintendence, Purchase of Sites, Grants-in-Aid, and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day or March, 1925"."
First Resolution agreed to.
Second Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I wish to draw attention to the number of non-combatant ranks provided for in these Estimates. I consider that they are much more numerous than is necessary. The late Prime Minister promised the House that they should have a day for discussing the findings of the Balfour Committee. Just as that Committee's Report was issued, the political crisis occurred, and we have heard no more about it since. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he would ask the Prime Minister if he could arrange for a day to discuss that Report? I desire to put to the House one or two suggestions from the point of view of saving the taxpayers' money on these Estimates, as I believe that considerable economies could be introduced by more co-ordination between the Services. Those of us who listened to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Chichester (Lieut.-Colonel Rudkin) were impressed by what he said in regard to the adoption of new inventions by the Army, and it does seem to me that coordination between the Services should be studied on a very much higher plane and on a broader basis than has been the case heretofore. I should like to say at once that my remarks are in no way intended as a criticism of the present Government, because, obviously they have not had time to consider these questions with that degree of care which any question of this kind merits. At the same time, I should like to put these views before them, so that, if there is anything new in them, they may be considered.
As a general rule, policy should be superior to any technical consideration; but in this case I think we find ourselves in rather an exceptional position, because technical considerations must govern the policy in so far as that policy is organisation, since, if it were not for the fact that these new technical devices were being introduced, there would be no reason for altering our present organisation. If, therefore, we examine the question on these lines, there seem to me to be three main conditions. First of all, it seems to me that we want a separate air-striking force and a separate defending force. Secondly, we want a technical arm for the Navy; and, thirdly, we want a technical arm for the Army. If, however, we were to analyse the duties and functions of the striking Air Force, that is to say, that part of the air arm which is used as an independent striking arm, and compare it with what a Navy would be when fully developed and equipped—
I must draw the hon. and gallant Member's attention to the fact that we are dealing, on this Resolution, with the pay of the Air Force.
I was trying to point out that I thought the pay of the Services could be reduced if coordination between the Services could be improved, thereby allowing of a lesser number of men; and I was endeavouring to clear the ground for my reasons by stating the general policy which should govern that type of co-ordination, and, therefore, the possibility of a reduction in the number of men.
It is not a question of a reduction in the number of men; it is a question of the pay of the Air Force for the number of men which has already been voted.
May I put it in this way? I should like to show how it might be possible to reduce the amount of pay by altering some of the duties which those men now have to perform. If I am in order, I will proceed on those lines. As I was saying, I think that in this case, if we were to compare the actual function of our independent Air Force with that of a Navy developed with all the aerial appliances which could be applied to it, we should find that there is very little difference between those functions.
I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member is out of order. We are dealing with the amount of money that has been voted for the purpose of paying the Air Force, and not with the question of a Navy in connection with it.
I do not wish to question your ruling in any way, but it is rather difficult to point out how changes could be made unless one is to explore the basis of the existing organisation. I want to keep within your ruling, and perhaps you could guide me in regard to that.
I think the hon. and gallant Member would have been in order on the last Resolution if he had attempted to show that a reduction in the number of men could be secured by co-ordination of the Services, but it would not be in order on the question of pay.
Should I be in order in referring to the sum of £38,252 which is being expended as pay of those effectives who are employed at the various meteorological stations throughout the country?
That would be in order.
I want to raise one or two points with regard to the pay of these men. The Under-Secretary of State referred to the extraordinarily good work which they are doing, and to the amount of good work which is being done in forecasting the weather at these various stations. I agree with him in regard to the excellence of the work, but it seems to me that, if we take into consideration the extremely limited amount of flying which goes on in this country at the present time, the sum of £38,252 is rather excessive to pay in salaries or wages for men to forecast the weather. After all, even the longest flights undertaken to-day are not of very long duration, and it is only a question of glancing at the barometer before you go up to see whether the conditions are likely to be reasonably favourable for the hour or hour and a half that you are in the air. Although I do not disagree in any way with what the hon. Gentleman said in regard to the value of these men's services, it does seem to me that the amount is rather excessive, and I wondered if by any means this very large sum could be reduced without sacrificing the efficiency of this meteorological service, which in some form, I quite agree, is essential to the efficiency of the Air Force. The Under-Secretary remarked that a great deal of this work was being done by voluntary effort on the part of people who are interested in meteorological matters all over the country. Would it not be possible, by giving reasonable encouragement to these amateurs who interest themselves voluntarily in work of this kind, to save a considerable portion of this very large sum?
I should like to ask whether the Under-Secretary intends to reply to the questions I put on Friday afternoon. When the Financial Secretary to the Treasury replied, he said that the remarks which had been made and the questions which had been asked would have the serious attention of the Ministers concerned. I was expecting that on this occasion a reply would be given in regard to what seemed to me to be the excessive salraies paid to the chaplains of the Air Force. If the hon. Gentleman is going to reply, I do not want to repeat what I said on Friday, but I can tell him that, since I made my speech on Friday, I have had a great many indications from many different directions of the interest taken in this subject, and that a large amount of dissatisfaction is expressed among those with whom I have come in contact in the interim.
I do not know how many times the House will permit me to speak on these Votes, but, if a reply from me is asked for on each of them, it must be understood that I have only the right to reply once, and should require permission if I am desired to give more than one reply. The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Black) spoke, I believe, during the Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment on Friday. I was not then in the House, and, consequently, did not answer him on that occasion, but I have been reading his speech since, and I understand he is concerned about the system of chaplains in the Air Force. In the first place it is not correct, as he quite reasonably supposed from his reading of the Estimates, that there are only 26. There are 32. Of these, 19 are Church of England, four are Roman Catholics, three are Presbyterians, three are Wesleyans, and three more represent the United Board, which covers, I believe, Baptists, Congregationalists, Primitive Methodists and United Methodists. Unmarried chaplains start at £365 a year, a married one starts at £565, and then after 24 years' service they are able to reach £800 and £1,040, respectively. All these appointments are open to qualified applicants. There sits a small board of administrators, of which the Air Member for Personnel is the Chairman, to whom nominations are made. It is true vacancies are not advertised, but the hon. Member will probably agree with me that that is not n cessary. In regard to the attendance of the men and officers at service. Identically the same Regulations apply as in the other services. There is some degree of compulsion, but, I imagine, men who do not wish to attend the services are not in any very great difficulty in discovering a reason which will give them freedom not to attend. That, I believe, covers the main points on which the hon. Member is making inquiries.
The hon. and gallant Member for North-West Hull (Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward) questioned the value of the meteorological services, which cost in salaries £38,000 a year. I gather he thinks that rather expensive and that we might be able to save on that expenditure if we had a proper examination of the system itself. I have not gone into the question whether the Department might possibly be conducted at a less cost than at present. It certainly did not occur to me that that figure was high, but in view of the fact that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has drawn attention to it in this way I will investigate the figures, bearing in mind his criticism, and see whether any reduction is possible. At first sight I do not see that such a reduction is at all possible, but I should never decline to examine a proposition that any hon. Member puts before me in this way.
9.0 P.M.
May I say one more word with regard to meteorology. We have had a plea on this side of the House for a reduction of the expenditure on that service. Meteorology, although of immense importance to aircraft in every branch, is of immense importance to the whole community and in that respect I do not suppose the ordinary man in the street comes more in contact with the doings of the Air Ministry than he does with regard to meteorology. I pleaded the other day that this science might be more studied. I have always staid, and I am prepared to say now, that meteorology is a second class science and yet it is a subject that affects every individual in the country. We find that the great brains of the country are not concentrated on meteorology, and yet we do not know anything about the weather at all. I congratulate the Minister on the reform that we have had in the last few years with regard to meteorology. It has come within his province and I think an advance certainly has been made. But what have we got to at the present day? Data are sent to the Air Ministry from every part of the land and from those data certain deductions are made. Those deductions are sent out a good deal more efficiently since the arrival of wireless, but it is no use pretending that the deductions are always correct. That does not mean that the Meteorological Office, qua Meteorological Office, is inefficient, but it means that the science is really not understood. I ask the hon. Gentleman if he could devote some of the money which is earmarked for research in order that this science might be studied a little more. If we could get this thing understood, if we could really prophesy weather accurately every day, it would be of vast benefit to the whole community and if he could not decrease the Vote but increase it, in order that the science might be mere seriously investigated by some of the bigger physicists of the country, his name will go down to posterity as a great benefactor.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Third Resolution agreed to.
Fourth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I wish to thank the Secretary of State for sending me many replies to my questions on the recent Air Debate. On this Vote there is an Estimate for barrack services. I asked him what the £25,000 for barrack services are, and he replied that they are for water for domestic and other purposes, scavenging, sanitary service, window cleaning, chimney sweeping, cleaning material, washing charges and laundry work. I should like to ask him whether they do not have fatigue parties in the Air Force to carry out these duties? Surely they can clean the windows of the barracks of the Air Force.
The men of the Royal Air Force do some of this work. I cannot, at the moment, tell my hon. and gallant Friend which share of the work they do, but undoubtedly some of it falls to their lot.
Will the hon. Member tell me whether it is the habit at the naval barracks and at the military barracks to require £25,000 for a similar service? That is a point that ought to be looked into.
Perhaps the best way to elicit the information would be for the hon. and gallant Member to put a question on the Paper.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Fifth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I imagine that this is the Vote which contains the main items in connection with the provision of aeroplanes. I have either listened to or read the Debates on this matter, and I understand that the Minister does not feel able to tell us with regard to present or future armaments how the new aeroplanes or the existing aeroplanes are divided between the different classes of aeroplanes which are used in war. I agree that it would be impossible to press him upon that matter. The more one listens to the general Debate with regard to the use of aeroplanes in war, and the possibilities of the development of that use, the more appalled one is at the prospect. It seems to me almost equally bad whether one listens to those who wish to minimise the amount of expenditure on this branch of armaments, or to those who take the militarist point of view and believe that these armaments will, in time, have to be very greatly increased.
If one listens to those who are most inclined to increase our strength in this way, the prospects before this nation and the other nations of the world seem to be extraordinarily black. In this matter the tendency of our Debates seems to have been this, that although for every nation armaments is insanity, yet for each individual nation armaments are an imperative necessity; that although those who take to the sword will no doubt perish by the sword, it is better that we should all perish together rather than that some of us should survive after killing the others; that although nothing that you can do will make you really safe in war, you must do your best; that although you cannot have enough aeroplanes to make yourself safe against attack, you may possibly manage to get enough to make other nations hesitate before they attack you, and that, no doubt, if you fight you perish, but if you do not fight you will be overwhelmed and ruined.
Whether one listens to those who are for the forward policy or for those who are for doing less, none of them can come to any better conclusion than that, in a hesitating sort of way, they hope that all nations will be sensible enough to prevent any nation beginning what must, if it is pursued, be the ruin and destruction of all of them. That seems to me a very terrible prospect. I want to put one side of the question in connection with the use of aeroplanes in war, that is with regard to the use of bombing aeroplanes. I will take up some points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) in the Debate last week, and I want the representative of the Air Ministry, if he will and if he can, to give special attention to the point. In listening to or in reading the Debates it seems to me that this is a most appalling, most urgent and most grievous matter from the point of view of the future of humanity.
I want two points to be either admitted or disputed. In the first place, with regard to the use of bombing aeroplanes, it is no use even pretending, if we are really to use that weapon of offence, that we are adhering in any way to the principles of The Hague Convention. If we deliberately admit into our methods of warfare the use of bombing aeroplanes, it is true that they must fly in the night, by dark, and that they must operate from such a great height that their targets cannot be anything, in a very large number of cases, but indiscriminate targets. If this weapon is really to be used, indiscriminate damage will be done to the civil population, quite apart from attacking military targets, or anything of that sort.
My second question is of great gravity and difficulty, because no ordinary method of limitation of armaments really touches the question. There are classes of aeroplanes which are used only for the pur- poses of war. Is it, or is it not, a fact that with regard to bombing aeroplanes the normal commercial aeroplane which is likely to be developed in the next few years will, when fitted with the ordinary equipment, serve the purpose quite well and be available as a bombing aeroplane? If that be the case, then every nation which goes in for the building of commercial aeroplanes will have at its disposal, quite apart from any special limitation of armaments, a potential power which no measure of limitation of armaments will restrict.
If the use of these aeroplanes in even a large proportion of cases means practically an indiscriminate destruction of the civil population, or a risk of it, and if there will be, apart from any limitation of armaments, a considerable potential supply of these weapons of offence in the hands of any nation which develops commercial flying, then I say that there is ground for something in the nature of a special inquiry by all who want, if they can, to avoid going back into absolute methods of barbarism in their warfare, and it does not entail a technical inquiry. I know that there was something in the nature of a technical inquiry, when we were considering the limitation of armaments with other countries before, but I feel that there ought to be of course combination with the other nations of the world, if you can, but if not, there ought to be by our own nation alone something like a very special inquiry, not taken part in purely by the aerial experts but taken part in by your highest statesmen and your men of the broadest humanity and religion, to find, if you possibly can, some way out of this terrible business of starting a competition in bombing aeroplanes, which leads straight back to barbarism, and the destruction of civilisation altogether.
I would like to know the policy of the Government with regard to airships? I understand that a Committee has been appointed to go into the whole question. Who is on the Committee? Does it include any experienced airship officer? The hon. Gentleman has told us that £1,913,400 has been expended for completing machinery. Do I understand that the firms have had their money paid for completed machines or will they be delivered at the end of the financial year? With regard to the sum of £940,000 for 800 engines, will they be delivered at the end of the financial year? Adding those two sums together we have nearly £3,000,000 for aeroplanes and engines, and yet we have only 80 first-line machines. I cannot understand where all the money goes to when we have only that number of first-line machines. They may go to Iraq and other places, but we have only got 80 first-line machines at home for the defence of this country. Does the Under-Secretary think that the ensuing financial year will see a very large increase in that number, and is he satisfied with the number available for the defence of this country?
The hon. Gentleman has also referred to helicopters. Has that great inventor who is dealing with helicopters at Farnborough got the machines into the air yet? He is a celebrated inventor, but it is an important point, and I would like to know how he is getting on, because the hon. Gentleman says that results of a promising nature have been obtained. Have the machines been got into the air yet? There is a sum of £401,000 for Farnborough. The Under-Secretary says that they have not yet built any complete machines there, but that the money has been used for experiments and research work. He goes on to say that they have produced several instruments, etc., at Farnborough. Can he tell me anything which they have produced during the last year for that large sum of money? You can go on with research and experimental work until Doomsday and not produce anything, and I would like to know what they have produced. The hon. Gentleman has given me a note about the National Physical Laboratory. I would like to know if the grant which they get is sufficient? He says that they have sufficient wind channels. That may be so. Have they sufficient money to carry out their work and to make all proper tests in civil aviation? It is important that civil aviation should get all that it requires in the way of technical information from the National Physical Laboratory. If not, I would like to know whether more money can be provided for the National Physical Laboratory?
You said that you wanted to know where all the money went to.
I am speaking now of the National Physical Laboratory, which is one of the most efficient establishments in the whole country. I know it well. I also know Farnborough well, and I doubt whether we are getting our money's worth there. The hon. Gentleman might also tell me whether it is end machines out to take cinema films? I saw that some unfortunate men lost their lives over that recently. Is it necessary? In considering the liability to accident, I would like to know is there any Department told off to inspect civil machines and to see that they are airworthy? A very gallant flyer, Colonel Travers, lost his life the other day at Croydon. It is said that he got into an air pocket. Had that machine ever been inspected by any technical expert to see if it was airworthy?
I would like to refer to the question of petrol and oil to which I would draw the attention of hon. Members opposite who are concerned so much with air defence. After going to such expenditure and trouble in perfecting your internal combustion engine, to take you into the air, to stop short and have to depend on your supplies coming into this country to enable you to use these machines seems absurd. If hon. Members opposite were sincere workers for the defence of the country, if they were logical, they would carry their defence, especially those who claim some knowledge of science, to a logical conclusion, and they would say, "Since we can produce all the machines that we require why do we stop short at the machines, why do we not go on to produce the petrol which we require, or any other form of gas, in order to take the machine into the air so that we may be self-contained as a nation in the matter of defence if need be?" One can imagine circumstances arising, with every source on which we depend for the supply of petrol closed to us for some reason, it may be because of some simple dispute, but in that way the vitality can be taken out of our Air Force and of our airship resources in this country. Here you are in this country with the same powers and the same supplies that are necessary for developing aeronautics and for the production of the necessary power for your engine, and while you go on voting millions to one arm of the body, the incomplete arm, you seem to get tired when you are asked to complete the matter by producing your own juice for your engine.
We store a lot of it in this country.
I know about your stores, and I also know something else. The other people who would like to be sending aeroplanes here know where your stores are.
They did not hit them in the last War.
No, but they were not so efficient as I understand they are going to be in the next war. Your argument does not hold. What I am arguing on is this: The absolute independence from outside sources for defence. If I believed as hon. Members opposite believe, I would never rest until I got this circle complete. In this country you can make all the juice you want for your machines. In the petrol you get from abroad, you are still troubled with certain deposits that stir up troubles in your engine. You can get rid of it by manufacturing something better, which you can do in this country.
Can you manufacture as economically as we can get petrol?
Yes, cheaper.
What is it?
Industrial alcohol. [An HON. MEMBER: "Whiskey!"] No, not whiskey. You could not trust the Air Force with whiskey. It would go into their own combustion chamber. Not only can we make industrial alcohol—[An HON. MEMBER: "Drink it!"]—we can de-nature it to prevent anyone from drinking it. [An HON. MEMBER: "No cheers!"] No, there are no cheers for that. You cannot drink it after it has been denatured. Other countries have been showing us the way for years—America and France. Take America. When the great prohibition took place, everybody thought the breweries and the distilleries would shut down. Not at all, the Americans are not fools. They started right on to industrial production of alcohol power. I want to ask the Under-Secretary whether he has, or is going to, consider production of this from my point of view, that is for the purposes of peace—civil aviation. I want to come to another point mentioned by the last speaker about the helicopter. He made two statements which were remarkable when taken together. He spoke about an eminent aviator who had come by his death by an air pocket, and he spoke about the helicopter. The helicopter is an instrument which wants to go into the air and hover. When anyone talks about a speed aeroplane that by its own speed forms its own fulcrum in the air, and then a few minutes afterwards speaks about an air pocket—when you take the propelling of those horizontal propellers running at the speed they must run to lift 9 inches from the ground, what are you doing? You are churning and creating an air pocket, you are destroying the air fulcrum that the ordinary machine by itself makes. I want to ask the Under-Secretary if he has anything he can make public with regard to the helicopter? There has been a tremendous amount of money spent on that business. I am prepared to spend any amount of money in scientific investigation, but scientific investigation does not mean an unnecessary expenditure of money in something you do not quite grasp in your science. When you grasp the full study of the science then you begin practical experiments. There has been something very far wrong when we have spent a quarter of a million on one machine. It shows that the matter was not thought out as it should have been thought out before the experiment was started. I would like the Under-Secretary to make some reference to that without giving away anything to any other country. I should like to know what constitutes inspection. Does that mean inspection of all new machines only, or does it include new machines and running machines? I want to know if that inspection includes every part of the machine. I want to know whether, when an inspection takes place, there is an examination made of the petrol to be used, a test made for its power because in watching the various accidents which have taken place—due it is always said to engine trouble—it has always appealed to me very strongly that it rested more with the petrol rather than with anything going wrong with the engine. I would like on this point if the Under-Secretary would give us some light
I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) on his speech with regard to power alcohol, in spite of his aspersions on the integrity of the Air Force. He seemed to doubt whether they were to be trusted with this home-made alcohol, but I was glad in his opening remarks to see he alluded to our Air Force as being one of defence. Hon. Members on the other side always say our Air Force is for offence.
I was saying from your point of view. You said your Air Force was for defence. I was not saying that.
It is not for defence surely in Iraq, Egypt and India?
I thought the hon. Member alluded to it being for defence.
Taking your form of speech.
Well, it is our view, and it is the correct view-that our Air Force is purely for defence, and I would suggest that what we should be most out to do nowadays in our investigations is to find the most efficacious methods of defence. The right hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland) spoke about the limitation of the Air Force. Everyone on this side is only too anxious to limit our Air Force provided other countries do the same. We cannot be the only country to limit our Air Force. It would have no influence if Air Forces were limited and left us without power to say yea or nay to any other country. Therefore, for us it is most important that our researches should be denned and kept to the defence of our country to find the best methods by which we can defend our country, the most up-to-date methods by which we can prevent foreign aeroplanes coming over and obliterating our towns in England. I would like to ask the Under-Secretary for War whether he is at present satisfied with the number of machines allotted for air defence. How is the co-operation working between the Army and the Air Force to-day? I think since the War the Air Ministry have the responsibility for the aircraft defence, whereas the War Office provides the necessary personnel and the material.
I cannot allow the hon. Member to go into the question of the Army and the Air Force now. That should have been done on Vote A.
What I was getting at is, do they realise the number of machines and the past number of the machines, and it is by the coordination of the two that they can arrive at the right number of machines? That was the point I was trying to raise—whether they consulted the Army as to the requisite number of machines. In all these matters of home defence it is only by the co-operation of the three Staffs, by each of them talking over these matters one with the other first, that it is possible to arrive at the correct number. It is no use each of them working in a watertight compartment, for then each will bring forward its views as to the number of machines required and each will be different from the others. They must talk the subject over and come to a decision before the matter goes to the Committee of Imperial Defence. It is no use the Committee of Imperial Defence going into this question on its own account, if the three Chiefs of Staffs have not first arrived at a decision by discussing the matter quietly amongst themselves. It is no use each particular branch writing a lot of memoranda and probably criticising the other branches, and each calling for a different number of machines. That is the point on which I would be glad of some information.
I wish to ask the Under-Secretary whether the Government have taken any definite steps on a matter which has been raised by an hon. Member opposite, namely, whether some general agreement can be reached with European Powers for the limitation of aerial armaments. I have asked two questions on this subject recently. I received an answer from the Prime Minister, in which he said that it was useless to throw proposals of this kind at the heads of other nations. In answer to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), in a recent Debate, the Under-Secretary of State for Air said, while talking of exploring every avenue, "This is not a question for the Air Ministry." I suggest that it is particularly a question for the Air Ministry, because there can be no general limitation without some kind of guarantee between nation and nation on this point, and there can be no guarantee unless there is agreement as to such matters as the type of machines, comparative spending and the effect on civil aviation. Has any definite step been taken to put these practical questions before the three General Staffs of the three Services, and have any conclusions been reached as to what kind of commitment it is possible to enter into with other nations as to the nature of a general guarantee for the limitation of air power?
That subject was discussed in a Debate recently. We are now voting Supplies and are not discussing policy.
I will endeavour to answer the series of questions put to me on this Vote. The right hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland), with many of whose remarks I find myself in perfect accord, and certainly with the purpose underlying the whole of his speech, asked a question which has been addressed to me before, and which I have previously tried to answer, namely, as to how far the civil aeroplane is of use in war. I am not a technical expert and I cannot give the House the last word on that problem, but I understand from my advisers that for night work the civil passenger aeroplane can be successfully used for bombing purposes, but that for day work, owing to the fact that it is not able to achieve the height of the Service machine, it cannot be regarded as of any serious account for war purposes. A most interesting series of questions came from the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter). I am tempted to believe that the fact that he asked me a series of questions a day or two ago, and that I did my best to give him written replies, has led him now to ask more questions. The hon. and gallant Member inquired about Farnborough and asked what is being done in the matter of research. I must refer him to the last speech which I made on this matter, in which I gave in some detail the departments of research to which they have been specially directing their energies. Then he asked, "Has the National Physical Laboratory enough money" I suppose that the answer must be in the negative. At all events, we are trying to supply them with a little more money this year.
In regard to accidents, we have been doing all that we can to prevent a recurrence. The Air Ministry does not indulge in film work, but it has given permission for the Wembley Exhibition authorities to take films of the kind of work which airmen have to do. The particular accident to which the hon. and gallant Member referred took place after the filming was over, after the work which constitutes the ordinary part of the training of airmen—which had been filmed—was on that occasion completed. Civil aeroplanes are certainly very carefully inspected at the beginning of every flight and on their return from every flight. Our regulations for the prevention of accidents are probably the most stringent of the regulations of any nation in the world. We examine machines and engines before and after every flight, daily, weekly, monthly, after any adjustment, after various periods of hours of flying, and so on. In reply to the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie), I cannot say whether petrol is examined in the same way, but, undoubtedly, we take measures to ensure that the petrol supplied to us is up to the specification.
On the question of lighter-than-air machines the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) asked me what is the constitution of the Cabinet Committee which is discussing that matter. It is against the practice to give the names of a Cabinet Committee, but the hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that they are in a position to call as witnesses all the practical officers and technical experts who may be available. In that connection the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) has informed us that he himself will take advantage of the offer to appear before that Committee, and I dare say his evidence will be available. A question has also been raised as to the amount of money to be expended this year and the forthcoming year on the ordering of aeroplanes, and it is said that the amount does not appear to resolve itself into value on the figures appearing in our reports on the matter. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford says that 80 first-line machines seem to be a poor return for the money expended. I dare say that would be correct, but the reference to first line machines must be taken as meaning first-line machines plus all the necessary reserve equipment that goes with them, and this year we are ordering, and expect to have delivered to us, over 500 aeroplanes of one sort and another.
Are those first line machines? I was dealing with home defence.
They are not necessarily first line machines; that is the total number.
Can the hon. Gentleman give the House any idea of the comparative figures, as between this country and France, as regards first line machines up to the end of the year when these 500 machines have been put in commission?
I cannot go any further than the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the former Minister, whose figures in relation to that matter I have reason to believe are correct. With regard to helicopters the Government have spent very large sums of money in this research work and some little progress has been made. I cannot say, at the moment, whether the promise of something really successful resulting from these investigations will ever be realised, but we feel it worth while to continue the investigation and to lose no chance of any possible discovery in that line.
Have the Ministry's professional advisers, in regard to research, advised the continuance of the helicopter experiments?
We are advised that it is worth while to continue the experiments.
On a point of Order. I have just had my attention drawn to the fact that the names of the Committee appointed to go into the airship question were published in the "Times" a few days ago, and yet the Under-Secretary has just refused to give me the names of that Committee.
I do not think a newspaper is evidence.
I cannot add anything to my reply on that subject. Finally, I have been asked by the hon. and gallant Mem- ber for Wolverhampton (Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury) whether the Army is satisfied with the measure of co-operation now going on, and the number of machines that are being supplied under that co-operation. The fullest consultation between the heads of the two Services is continually going on, and I have not received nor heard of any complaints in regard to the co-operative working which has been established, and which I have every reason to believe is very successful and very efficient. I have no reason to think that the Army chiefs are in any way dissatisfied with the number of machines supplied, and they know perfectly well as the expansion scheme develops they will get more machines.
I have listened with interest to the somewhat unconvincing speech of the Under-Secretary. I think in these Debates we are wandering about—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—that is those who have spoken, and I have not spoken so far, have been wandering about in a maze of details and we are apt to forget the general principle which is involved. That general principle is the question of the vulnerability of this country and the measures to be taken to combat it. We have heard a great many details about helicopters and all sorts of things, with which those of us who are mere laymen and citizens, anxious for the protection of our hearths and homes, are not familiar, but a point which has not been properly dealt with so far is the extent to which we should be prepared to meet foreign attack. We have been told that we are not up to the standard of other Powers, particularly one Power. I ask the Under-Secretary is it necessary that we should all be in competition to reach the top standard. If we are to arrive at a position of safety we shall certainly not attain it by undue competition in armaments, and I submit the right attitude to adopt towards this question is that we should be prepared to put up a sufficient attack—that being the best form of defence. Whether our neighbours across the channel have 1,000 aeroplanes or 500 aeroplanes does not seem to be germane to the question. In the Debates to which I have listened in this House I have never heard a satisfactory solution offered of the problem as to whether, if there is a bombardment of the heart of the Empire, namely, London, we shall be able to resist that menace.
In fact, I have become convinced from these Debates that we should not be able to do so, and that our only possible form of defence is readiness to make a sufficient attack. I emphasise the word "sufficient." It is not that we should have 1,000 or 500 aeroplanes, but that whatever our attitude may be towards our neighbours, and I hope it will be friendly, we should have sufficient force in our command to be able to say to them: "It may be you will be able to bring unlimited destruction upon us, but the same power is in our hands with regard to you." That is the point for which I have waited in vain through several of these Debates. I have heard it said that we should have a larger Air Force and that we should have no Air Force at all. Arguments have been urged on the one side or the other, but, so far, there has been an insufficiency of argument on the point as to what is a sufficient aggregate force to have at our command in order that it should not be worth the while of any adversary to attack us, because we might reply in a manner unprofitable to him. I trust, if not in this Debate, in some future Debate an answer will be given to this question. There are other smaller nations, such as Switzerland, Holland and Belgium, who do not compete in this race of armaments, and who do not expect to have a sufficient force to meet all attacks, but, at the same time, their Governments satisfy themselves and their own citizens that they are in a position to make unprofitable to the attacker any attack upon their liberties. I trust any attack upon our liberties will be unprofitable to those who seek to attack us, and I trust our Government will see that the provision made is always sufficient for that purpose.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Sixth Resolution agreed to.
Ordered, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during Twelve Months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army and Air Force; and that Mr. Secretary Walsh, Mr. Ammon, and Mr. Leach do prepare and bring it in."
Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill
"to provide during Twelve Months for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army and Air Force," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed—[Bill 83.]
Seventh Resolution agreed to.
Eighth Resolution read a Second time.
Ordered, "That further consideration of the Resolution be now adjourned."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]
Resolution to be further considered To-morrow.
Sittings of Parliament
Ordered,
"That so much of the Lords Message [12th March] as relates to the appointment of a Joint Committee on the Sittings of Parliament be now considered."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]
So much of the Lords Message considered accordingly.
Ordered,
"That a Select Committee of Nine Members be appointed, to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords, to consider the desirability of altering the customary period of the Parliamentary Session and the incidental changes necessary thereto."—[Mr. F. Hall. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Mr. Acland, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, Mr. Fisher, Captain Fitzroy, Colonel Gretton, Mr. Frederick Hall, Mr Neil Maclean, Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward, and Mr. Wignall nominated Members of the Committee.
Ordered,
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
Ordered,
"That Three be the quorum."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]
The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed .
Vaccination
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]
10.0 P.M.
I desire to call attention to a question which is of the utmost im- portance at the present juncture, and I make no apology for bringing it forward on two grounds: First of all, because in this House we have a very large number of new Members, before whom the question has never been discussed, and, secondly, because the question needs to be settled without any further delay. The question is that of the administration of the Vaccination Act, 1907, and I bring it forward because upon two occasions I have put questions to the Minister of Health and have been unable to get any satisfactory reply, and it is some considerable time since this question was ventilated in the House. I wish the Health Minister were present to hear the case that I have to put, with respect to the repeal of the Clauses of the Vaccination Act, 1907, which called for those who desire exemption to apply for certificates. I desire to say that fresh experience has been gained, and new results have accrued since the last time this question was discussed in this House, and it is to that fresh experience and those newly ascertained results that I desire to call attention.
Small-pox in this country is now one of the least frequent of the infectious diseases, and it has proved in later years to be the least deadly of any of the infectious diseases, and this is proved by the official records which I propose to put before the House. These figures are startling and incontrovertible, in my opinion, and I desire to ask for the fair consideration by the House of this question, in order that a solution upon proper lines may be arrived at. In 1907, when this Act was first brought into operation, 73 per cent. of the infants who were brought into this world in this country were vaccinated, and in 1921, after 15 years' experience, the number vaccinated had gone down to 38 per cent. The vaccination is down by about one half, and yet there are fewer deaths in Great Britain to-day than there were at the time when the Vaccination Act was passed During the six years, 1906 to 1911, just at the time when the Vaccination Act was passed, there were 106 deaths, when there were 73 per cent. vaccinated; during the six years, 1917 to 1922, there were only 95 deaths, although there were only 38 per cent. vaccinated; and the total deaths in the whole of the 17 years since 1906 were 255 Whatever may be the cause of the decline in the deaths from small-pox, it cannot be attributed to vaccination, because there are only half the number of children vaccinated that there were in 1906.
I will now call attention to the very special figures that relate to Leicester City. During the last 20 years in the City of Leicester there has not been one single death from small-pox. In the year 1906 there were 18 per cent. of the infants vaccinated, but in the year 1921, 15 years later, there were only 3·4 per cent. vaccinated. Would it be credited that, with 96 per cent. of the children unvaccinated, there has not been a single death from small-pox in Leicester for 20 years? Whatever the cause of the absence of deaths from small-pox in Leicester City—
Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and , 40 Members being present —
I should like to call attention to the incidence of small-pox vaccination in the last 50 years. From 1872 to 1891, during 20 years, there were 46,000 deaths from small-pox, an average of 178 per 100,000 of the population. During those 20 years an average of 34 per cent. of the population were vaccinated. From 1892 to 1911 there were only 8,300 deaths, or 25 per 100,000, and the percentage of vaccination was 66. During the 10 years, 1912–1921, there were only 122 deaths, or ·34 per 100,000 deaths from small-pox, and there were vaccinated 43 per cent. of the population. Here is a very remarkable figure. During 1923 there were only seven deaths from smallpox altogether, but during that year there were deaths from measles, diphtheria, scarlet fever and influenza numbering 17,216. During 1923 there was one death from small-pox to every 2,459 deaths from these other diseases. There is no particular preventions or precautions taken against the other diseases under which deaths actually occur. It is the argument of those who believe as I do that the time for compulsory vaccination should be past.
Is the hon. Member dealing with the Statute? Legislation cannot be dealt with on the Motion for the Adjournment.
I pass on to say that under the Vaccination Act, 1907, and since that time, for every 184 children who have died certified for vaccination, only 48 have died from small-pox, not to speak of those many thousands of children who have suffered physical disability. Now I come to discuss the question of the exemption certificates from vaccination. Every year there are approximately 800,000 infants born in Great Britain, but of that number the parents of 500,000 go for exemption certificates. That is the figures we have for the last available year. 62 per cent. refused to have their children vaccinated, and 38 per cent. accepted vaccination. We have an hon. Member on this side of the House, who sits on the benches above the Gangway, who has 19 children. This hon. Member has done his duty to the community, but if this hon. Member does not believe in vaccination, he has to go probably 19 times in order to certify his conscientious objection. It is often found that a man has to lose half a day's work in order to secure his vaccination exemption certificate, and he has very often to go five or 10 miles for it. Sometimes it is refused with very great indignity. I have here an extract from a speech made by a justice of the peace on the 25th October, 1923. It was made to the guardians of Newhaven. This justice of the peace said:
"As a justice of the peace lie was frequently asked to grant exemption certificates. He wanted to know whether he had a right to refuse to sign, if he was satisfied that the parent applying had not considered the matter sufficiently. Last time a father applied to him to sign an exemption certificate he gave him such an examination that he fainted."
That was the statement of the justice of the peace himself. I only bring that forward as an example of the method in which parents who are only exercising their legal rights are treated. I would like to put it to the Minister of Health in this way: Is it reasonable that 500,000 out of 800,000 parents of infants that are born should have to go, irritated in their minds and full of resentment against the authority which has brought this Act into operation, and that continues to carry it on, cursing the Government in their heart—is it reasonable that, if exemption is permissible under the Act, they should have to go and make an affirmation with respect to it? If the exemption is permissible, it ought to be optional, and I there is no virtue in the declaration under such circumstances. Burke said that bad law was the worst tyranny, and I say this is one of the worst laws on the Statute Book at the present time.
The hon. Member is now referring to an Act of Parliament. He began by saying that this was a question of administration, but I have not heard anything about administration in his speech.
I have pointed out, with regard to the people who have to go for exemptions, that 500,000 out of 800,000 have exemption and only 300,000 do not go for exemption. When such a large proportion of people go for certificates and when such a small proportion do not go for certificates, the time has come when with respect to this 1907 Act of Parliament, provision should be made that they should not have to go for these exemption certificates. I am not objecting to people having their children vaccinated when they so desire. I may say, as chairman of a health committee for many years in the County of Leicester, that I believe in vaccination when there is contact with the disease, but I do not believe in the vaccination of infants when they are not brought into contact. I want to call attention to a special case that has arisen in the County of Leicester during the last few weeks. T called attention to it when a question was asked the other day. The people who have gone in for vaccination during the last few weeks in a village in Leicestershire were very wise to do so. The county authority, under my suggestion, put up large posters all over the village asking the inhabitants to be vaccinated, because the disease was in their midst. But what I am up against is asking 250,000 people of Leicestershire to have their children vaccinated when there is no disease, and I advise them to leave it until such time as the disease comes into their midst. I maintain that in the circumstances in which the disease was treated in the village in question, and the precautions which are in operation in Leicester and in Leicestershire, there is no necessity for the people, for the time being, in Leicester, or Leicestershire, or in the country to be asked to have their children vaccinated. I should like to read an extract from a statement I made by the Medical Officer of Health in Leicester in regard to this matter. It appeared in the "Lancet" of the 9th February, 1924. He made a speech in which he said:
"It has never been proved that smallpox can be prevented, that is, effectually controlled by any system of infant vaccination, however thorough."
That is the statement of Dr. Millard, Medical Officer of Health, who has been in the midst of this thing for many years in Leicester. He went on to say:
"It is very doubtful whether the statement that small-pox cannot, or could not, be prevented without vaccination is justifiable."
If that be correct, is it reasonable that those parents who do not believe in vaccination should be put to the disability, inconvenience and the irritation of having to secure exemption?
The hon. Gentleman is all the time speaking against the existing Statutes as regards vaccination, and the necessity of securing exemption by a certificate. He has not made a single suggestion applicable to the sphere of administration in the matter of vaccination.
I thought I called attention to the unfair administration of the Act by the magistrates. I thought I had given one instance, and I can give several more, if desired, of cases in which the magistrates do not administer the Act in harmony, and with equity to the people, who are only exercising their legitimate rights in coming for exemption certificates. I do not know, under your ruling, that I desire to pursue the matter any further, except to say that, with regard to the administration of vaccination, there is a very huge cost.
I put a question to the Minister only yesterday, and I received an answer that the guardians of the country have to provide a sum of £162,000 in order to administer these Acts, in addition to which there is a sum of about £22,000 which comes out of the Exchequer in grants, so that all together there is a sum of about £184,000 or £185,000 that is spent either by the ratepayer or taxpayer in the incidence of carrying out vaccination. Therefore I say on all these grounds I have alleged, principally upon what seems to me to be a question of the liberty of the subject, that we have no right really and morally to compel the people to come and ask for vaccination exemption certificates if they have a conscientious objection to it, unless we can show that either the State is damaged or that the man is not capable of expressing a proper judgment in regard to the position. If the man—
The hon. Gentleman has for the fourth time ignored my ruling, and I must now ask him to resume his seat.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has endeavoured to show that since vaccination is a useless remedy for small-pox, the Act should not be rigidly enforced; that, on the contrary, people should be encouraged to take full opportunity of the Exemption Clause and thereby escape vaccination. That so few deaths have occurred in recent years that the immunity given by vaccination does not justify the people taking full advantage of the vaccination which is provided for them, and that people should be encouraged by the advice or indifference of the Health Department to take advantage of the Exemption Clause. The question arises whether or not vaccination does give immunity and whether that immunity is worth having. That seems to be the whole issue.
On a point of Order. Do not the remarks of the hon. Gentleman come within your ruling, Mr. Speaker?
So far they do not, but the hon. Gentleman who has sat down was pleading for more laxity while the hon. Gentleman seems to be urging less laxity.
I am dealing with the question of whether or not the Health Department should or should not encourage vaccination and discourage the use of the Conscience Clause. As a matter of fact it is not a question of conscience at all. It is a question of propaganda. So much propaganda has gone on against vaccination that the people have been encouraged to think that a vaccinated child is inoculated with some evil thing. The whole propaganda is based upon that, and people are discouraged from being vaccinated because their child they think has something put into his blood which is likely to affect its whole constitution throughout its life. Therefore, it is urged, they should be encouraged to circumvent the Vaccination Acts and escape by hook or by crook vaccination altogether, and swear that it is against their conscience.
Let us look at it. It is not a question of conscience—for this reason: If I had to contemplate the vaccination of my child I would ask myself this question: Is vaccination going to provide for that child something that is useful and something that will render it some service? In the first place, we know that certain diseases give immunity from subsequent attacks through life. A notable example is measles. If we have measles during childhood we practically escape that disease for the rest of our lives. That is so well known amongst mothers that they often bring their children amongst measles cases in order that they may get it over when young. So well known is this fact that that practice is often followed. Another disease which gives immunity is cowpox. Another is smallpox. But cowpox also gives immunity from smallpox. That was discovered one-and-a-half centuries ago when they found that those who had cowpox never got smallpox. When it was discovered that cowpox was a non-fatal disease and smallpox was very often fatal, people were infected with cowpox in order to be immune from smallpox. That is all that vaccination means, it is artificially induced cowpox, and to talk about vaccination as if it was a process of inoculating some evil thing in order to give immunity from smallpox is the purest nonsense.
All you are doing by vaccination is that you are giving an infant an attack of cow-pox, which is a non-fatal disease, in order to protect it and make it immune from small-pox, which is a fatal disease, for nobody dies of cow-pox. It is true that persons inoculated in this way who are susceptible to some other disease might have that disease heightened in this way, but what I want to do is to stop that propaganda which is going on against vaccination, because it is something which is entirely fallacious and propagandists do not understand the subject. When you tell those who are conducting this propaganda against vaccination that it is only cow-pox they cannot believe it. That is so well known that one need not repeat it in the presence of doctors. All I want to do is to point out to these propagandists who keep hurling at the people the argument that vaccination is an evil thing and should be avoided, that, instead of being that, it is simply a protection that every child should have. I do not know of any doctor who refuses to vaccinate his own children; and why? Because he thinks he is doing them a service by giving them immunity from two diseases, namely, from cowpox—immunity from which, it is true is not of much moment, because it is a non fatal disease—and from small-pox, which is a terribly fatal disease. My hon. Friend says that we have only lost such-and-such a number from it, but that is due very largely to vaccination. It is said that there is no danger; but smallpox is never absent from among us—we are always getting sporadic outbreaks every now and then—and were it not for the protection afforded by vaccination our susceptibility and liability to contract the disease would be very much greater.
There may come a time when vaccination is not worth having. I started with the question, "Does vaccination give immunity?" I say it does, beyond all question. The immunity which vaccination gives to smallpox is amazing. It has been tested for generations, and has been testified to by all nations. The question is, Is it worth having? That depends upon whether the infection is very prevalent—upon whether ships are coming into our ports from smallpox-infected countries, upon how prevalent the germ of smallpox is. If it is absent altogether we need no vaccination, because in the absence of the germ we cannot get the disease. I say that we have not yet arrived at the point at which we can say we can dispense with vaccination. We cannot say that the danger is so small as to be negligible. We, therefore, need the immunity that vaccination gives. Our Health Department ought to make pronouncements on this question, and ought to discourage evasions of the Act and the use of the vaccination Section. That Section is not based on conscience, but upon conviction born of foolish propaganda that there is some evil thing about vaccination which people ought to avoid.
Tramways and Omnibus Strike
At Question Time to-day I raised, with my hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, a question which has some relation to the dispute which is now proceeding in connection with the London omnibuses and trains, and I am sorry that, in making a reference to the ambitions of a certain Noble Lord who is at the head of the London traffic combine, I said something which you, Mr. SPEAKER, thought I ought not to have said. I indicated to my hon. Friend that I would raise the point on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House, and I am sorry that he is not able to be in his place, though I can quite understand that he may be engaged in very useful work in connection with the dispute. The point that I wanted to raise has, it is true, some bearing on the dispute, but I do not wish to go into the merits or into too close an examination of that dispute, because I am sure we are all anxious that the negotiations which the Government is conducting should come to a successful issue. I would only say that, in my judgment, the claims of the workpeople are in themselves essentially reasonable. I personally wish them good luck in their struggle, and I am sorry that the head of the combine is the least reasonable of all, and has offered them nothing whatever in the way of concession.
I have a suspicion that he is rather anxious to force the Government into a certain solution of the London traffic problem which has been agreed to between his own concern—probably with the able assistance of Mr. Blain, who is now the chief agent of the Conservative party—between his own concern and the Conservative party; and it may be that the Noble Lord is taking a certain form of industrial action with a view to compelling a solution of the problem on lines which are favourable to himself and to the concern with which he is associated. I know, however, that the Government, in the administrative action which they are taking in connection with the dispute, are taking into full consideration the point of view of the relation between the dispute and the general question of London traffic control, which, of course, is not before the House to-night. The point I put to the Minister, which I hoped he would take into account in considering the dispute, was whether some action could not be taken with a view to relieving the London tramway undertakings from certain burdens which are clearly inappropriate to them under the conditions of electric traction. The first point I would refer to is a matter which is largely within the control of the municipalities themselves. That is the question of the chargeability of street widenings. It is a curious thing that if a street widening become necessary because of the development of omnibus traffic, it is conducted at the entire and exclusive expense of the ratepayers of the area, with some possible grant from the Minister of Transport. If a street widening be necessary in the interests of omnibus traffic, which it often is, it is conducted at the public expense, and the omnibuses concerned bear no part of the charge whatever. I wish to submit to the Minister that he should take appropriate administrative action, with a view to secure that such charges are not appropriate to the tramways undertaking, but appropriate to the general rate of the municipality, with a view to improve the means of transport. If it is not appropriate that street widenings should be charged to other forms of transport which secure a benefit in common with the tramways undertaking, it is clearly inappropriate that it should be made a charge upon the tramways undertaking itself. My hon. Friend knows all these points quite well, because he has had much longer experience than I have had as a member of the County Council, and that is why I was sorry there was not a far greater measure of sympathy in the reply he gave me to-day.
The other two points I must deal with rather more carefully. I wish to submit them to my hon. Friend in his capacity of administrator rather than of legislator. It is clear that before he attempts to give legislative consideration, these two points are appropriate in connection with the administrative action he is taking in connection with the present dispute. The first point is that a tramway has not only to construct its track, but I understand it is the practice to regard it as necessary that it should maintain the track. That might have been appropriate when horse traction was used for tramway journeys and the horses partially wore out the track, but modern electric traction does not wear out the track at all. On the- contrary the track is actually worn out by competitive forms of transport, including the motor omnibus, which is in the possession of the combine. The hon. Gentleman might consider whether it might not be discussed between him and the employers concerned whether, if some relief in that direction could be found, it would assist them in granting the concessions which I think the workpeople are quite properly and legitimately demanding. Not only does a tramway create and maintain its track, which is used by competitive forms of transport, but it actually has to pay rates on the track. Again, in the administrative action he is taking the Minister might consider whether, if it was possible for relief to be given to tramway undertakings in respect of the rates, that would not assist them to grant the demands of the men.
It is clear that some financial adjustment would have to be made between the county rate and the borough council rate, which would thereby be affected because it would increase the chargeability of the local highways rates because of the tramway track coming under the local rate, but there might be adaptation between the Ministry of Transport grant for Class 1 and Class 2 roads and the county rate whereby that might be met. These are serious considerations. I am a little perturbed at the direction which certain discussions outside the House are taking. I do not like the attitude which the head of the combine has adopted. First of all, he turns down the men's demand and will give them nothing at all, whereas the other undertakings will give them something, and then he has really taken a line which indicates that he is quite prepared for the dispute to go on. He is not prepared to move an inch unless the solution, which he has agreed with the Conservative party on the traffic problem—a perfectly natural agreement between those two forces but perfectly unnatural for any of us to agree to—is adopted. The suggestion is, that they should be given some form of monopoly over the London streets.
I do not want to enter into the merits of the dispute, although I have made it clear that I agree with the men and think their demands reasonable. I do not wish to make more difficult the task which the Prime Minister and other Ministers have on hand with the men, but if the sug- gestions I have made were met it would enable the London County Council tramway undertaking to grant the demands of the union and have a surplus of £94,000. The charges are inequitable and unjust. I hope that the Minister of Transport, with his experience of London municipal matters, will be able to give us a more sympathetic reply to-night than he did when I put the question to him this afternoon. I do not wish to pursue the matter any further, but I would urge the Minister of Transport to give us rather more sympathetically a statement of his intentions.
Can the Minister of Transport make any announcement to the House with regard to the present dispute?
The Court appointed by His Majesty's Government has presented an interim Report to-day and expresses the view that a definite undertaking by the Government to introduce and press forward legislation to place all the passenger traffic of the Metropolitan area under some co-ordinating control affords, in their opinion, the only basis at present suggested for re-opening negotiations between the parties. His Majesty's Government intend to give effect to this recommendation and have given notice of the introduction of such a Bill this evening. This Bill will be pressed on as rapidly as possible. We expect further recommendations from the Court without delay, and the Government will urge both sides to accept them as a basis of settlement.
With regard to my hon. Friend, the Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison), who says I was not sympathetic to him to-day, perhaps he will not mind my saying that I thought the question which he put to me was not put as nicely as he usually puts questions, and perhaps I rather resented it.
May I assure my hon. Friend that any question which I put was not in any way directed against him, although it may have been directed, as I have already said this evening, against a certain individual outside. I would be the very last to make any improper suggestion against the uprightness or integrity of my hon. Friend.
Perhaps that accounts for the fault on both sides. In regard to the matters mentioned by my hon. Friend, of course, I know them quite well. I ought to know all about them, seeing that I have had many years' experience, but I cannot go into a discussion of them to-night in the light of what is going on outside. My hon. Friend may rest assured that none of these points will be missed when the whole matter is being dealt with. I know how necessary it is that some of them should be dealt with. There has been a meeting this evening, and there is to be another meeting to-morrow. I ask my hon. Friend not to press the thing upon me to-night, but to let matters take their course a little longer, in the hope that a settlement will come out of it.
I want to appeal to the Minister of Transport as to whether it is not possible for the Government to do something to assist the enormous numbers of workers and travellers who are finding themselves in very great difficulty. I had occasion to go across London to-night, and the congestion on the underground railways at 8 o'clock was almost incredible. I went further, and I saw hundreds of people who had been, engaged during the day suffering very considerably from the fatigue of having to walk a very long way. I do not know whether the Minister of Transport can see his way to do anything, but I would' like to remind him that some years ago both the War Office and the Admiralty were able to place upon the streets at certain centres lorries, which were of enormous advantage to people having to get to and from the City. I would suggest that the hon. Gentleman should consider whether until a happy solution has been found, which we hope will be very soon, he will consult with his colleagues as to the possibility of adopting some such suggestion as I venture to make.
In answer to the hon. Gentleman, the course which he suggests might be considered, but, as the Prime Minister said to-day, attention is being given more to a settlement of the dispute. If, unhappily, the dispute be not settled', something will have to be done.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Four teen Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.