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Commons Chamber

Volume 171: debated on Monday 31 March 1924

House of Commons

Monday, March 31, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Grampian Electricity Supply Bill (by Order),

Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Capital Punishment

I beg to present a petition from the religious Society of Friends and others, signed by 18,639 persons, showing that the "undersigned petitioners, believing in the sanctity of human life, view with abhorrence the continuance in Great Britain of punishment by death, and praying that a Measure may be introduced in Parliament for its speedy abolition."

Oral Answers to Questions

India

University Colleges (Entrance)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what steps are being taken to raise the standard required for entrance to university colleges in India so as to restrict the number of university students to those whose abilities and equipment fitted them to profit by the courses of study laid down, to put a stop to the present system of cheap degrees and easy standards, and to put Indian university standards on the same level as British university standards?

As I informed the hon. and gallant Member in reply to a similar question on 10th March, full information is contained in a Report which is shortly to be presented to Parliament.

Is it not the case that students have to come to an English university, in order to get a proper degree, and why should they not be able to get a proper degree in India?

Bengal (Budget Grants, Rejection)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the rejection of the Vote for Ministers' salaries, which is one of the transferred services, by the Bengal Council; whether he intends to allow this service to be restored to the reserved side and thus enable the Governor to restore the grant; and whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the legislature in the United Provinces, who have prevented all development and improvement schemes for the benefit of the people in the provinces from being carried out?

As regards Bengal, I am aware that the Vote for Ministers' salaries has been rejected, but I think that the hon. and gallant Member will agree, on reflection, that the solution he suggests is not feasible under the constitution. It is understood that, if necessity arises, the Governor will administer the transferred subjects and be responsible for them. I have no confirmation of any such situation as is suggested in the third part of the question as having occurred in the United Provinces.

In view of the rejection by the Bengal Council of the grant for the British Empire Exhibition, will the Governor have power to restore it?

Am I to understand that the Governor, in taking over these transferred services, will have money available in order to carry them on? I understand there is no money.

Is the Governor going to take over these transferred services?

Do I understand the Under-Secretary to assent to my proposition that the Governor has no money for carrying on these transferred services?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that, as the result of the Swarajist campaign in Bengal, the whole of the province has, by the vote of the Council, been deprived of police, law courts, and gaols; and whether he is aware of the manifesto of Roy, issued from Berlin and addressed to the congress, advocating the destruction of the councils from within; and what steps the Government propose to take to defeat this policy?

I am aware that Budget grants under a number of heads, including jails and administration of justice, have been rejected by narrow majorities by the Bengal Council, and that the grant for police has been reduced, but I have no reason to suppose that the effect has been, or will be, that supposed by the hon. and gallant Member. As regards the second part of the question, the manifesto referred to is dated December, 1922, and was published at that time. It was not noticed by the congress that met in that month. My Noble Friend understands that the Government of India are taking all steps that they consider necessary to deal with Roy's independent propaganda.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Governor of Bengal, who seems to be primarily concerned, has restored these Votes that the Council has refused to vote? If so, how does he propose to carry on the services mentioned in the question.

I will put it down for next Monday. Will the hon. Gentleman endeavour to get the information by then, as it is of great importance?

Ex-Maharajah of Nabha

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has decided to allow the King of Nabha, who recently abdicated as the result of pressure put upon him by the Government of India, to state his case in this country?

If the hon. Member's question refers to the ex-Maharajah of Nabha, the answer is in the negative.

East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula Railways

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether it is proposed to proceed with the placing of the East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula Railways under State management in view of the position in the Legislative Assembly, and the danger to the safety of passengers and the maintenance of the service that will arise should the present management be weakened under their control?

My Noble Friend does not consider that there is any reason to modify the decision to place the East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula Railways under State management.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the manager of the Egyptian railways has resigned because the Minister there had taken all the power out of his hands, and is the same thing to occur in India?

Indian Army (British Officers)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that great and increasing anxiety exists among British officers of the Indian Army regarding the future of their service and their future prospects therein; and whether he can give them any assurance that no changes will be made in the establishment or administration of the Indian Army adversely affecting their careers therein, or that if such changes are made adequate compensation will be given them for any resulting loss of employment or opportunity for advancement or pension?

I do not think that present conditions give occasion for any such anxiety as the hon. Member refers to, and I cannot give assurances with regard to a contingency which in any case is remote. Officers affected by the recent reductions in the Indian Army received liberal treatment, and if similar measures are found necessary in the future I imagine that they will be carried out by the Government in a similar spirit.

Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that there is practically no case for anxiety for British officers? That is an extraordinary statement.

Irish Free State

Boundary Commission

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the dissatisfaction in Ireland at the undue delay in setting up the Boundary Commission provided for in Article 12 of the Irish Treaty, signed on 5th December, 1921; and if he is yet able to fix a date for a resumption of the conference?

Yes, Sir. I am well aware of the feeling existing on this matter, and, as my hon. Friend is aware, am dealing with it.

Is it not a mistake to say "dissatisfaction in Ireland." Is it not dissatisfaction in the Free State? Why do these mistakes occur?

Trawling

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that there are extensive areas off the south and south-west coasts of Ireland, outside the territorial waters, from which British trawlers are excluded but which foreign trawlers may enter; and whether he will make representations to the Free State Government that British trawlers should receive treatment at least equal to that given to the trawlers of Foreign countries?

Prior to the establishment of the Irish Free State trawling was prohibited by by-law, made under Statute, in certain areas off the Irish coasts. It was, of course, not found possible to enforce any such prohibition against foreign trawlers outside the three-mile limit. The construction of Article 73 of the Irish Free State Constitution, in so far as it affects the extra-territorial application of the by-laws in question, is at present under consideration between the two Governments, but I understand that, pending a final decision on the important constitutional question involved, prosecutions against British fishermen for infraction of the by-laws outside the three-mile limit are not being proceeded with.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Irish Free State to secure that British trawlers, in any case, have the same facilities as German trawlers?

Could there be any greater evidence of the Free State's consideration in the matter than that, pending the settlement, they have decided not to institute proceedings?

Palestine (Disturbances, Jaffa)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to the disorders which occurred at Jaffa between the Jews and the Arabs at the time of the Esther festival?

I am informed by the High Commissioner for Palestine that on 20th March, which was a Jewish carnival day, two Jews were shot and wounded in the Manshia quarter of Jaffa. Police investigation was proceeding, when three Arabs were fired at and wounded. One Jew and one Arab died of injuries. There has been no spreading of disorder, little local excitement, and the situation has been normal throughout. Public opinion is unanimous on both sides in expressing condemnation of the crimes. Several arrests have been made.

Steel Exports (Australian Duty)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a dumping duty has now been imposed on steel products exported from the United Kingdom, under Section 4 of the Australian Industries Preservation Act?

Yes, Sir. Full particulars were given in the "Board of Trade Journal" of the 20th instant.

Tanganyika (Trade Ordinances)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in what language British-Indian traders in Tanganyika territory will be required to keep their books under the amended Trade Ordinances?

Traders of all nationalities may keep their ordinary accounts in any language they please, but for the purposes of the Trades Licensing Ordinance they are required to submit evidence in a form intelligible to the licensing authority sufficient to show the amount of their profits. The accounts necessary for this purpose will have to be, as from the 1st of April, 1926 (but not before), rendered in English, French or Swahili, but this requirement will not apply to the smaller traders whose profits do not exceed £150.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that a differentiation of that sort, to the prejudice of British-Indian subjects, is in accordance with the mandate under which we administer the territory?

Foreign Potentates

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what subsidies are being paid to foreign potentates other than Ibn Saud; whether any subsidies are being paid to any members of the Shereefian family; if so, to whom and to what extent; and when they will be discontinued?

Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the second part of the question?

Kenya

Natives (Taxation and Welfare)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state the amount of revenue from hut and poll tax estimated for Kenya for 1924–25 and the amount estimated to be spent during the same period on education, medical services, and other purposes specially directed to the welfare of the native population of the Colony?

The estimated revenue from native hut and poll tax for 1924 is £508,850. In the case of many departments of the Kenya Government, it is not possible to say what proportion of the total expenditure should be regarded as specially directed to the welfare of the native population, but about £90,000 of the Medical Department Vote and £30,000 of the Education Department Vote may be debited to native welfare work.

Immigration Regulations

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present position with regard to the contemplated new Immigration Regulations in Kenya; and if there is a Bill on the matter actually before the Legislative Assembly of that Colony?

I answered fully on the 18th of February a question put to me on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Snell). I can only add that the draft of the new Bill will be referred to me before it is introduced into the new Legislative Council now in process of election, and that I hope to receive the draft about the middle of April.

East African Railways Committee

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Sir W. Acworth has resigned from the Departmental Committee on railway extension in East Africa, and why; whether he will add to the Committee at least two more unofficial members having technical knowledge of railway construction and railway management; and whether the Report of the Committee will be laid before Parliament?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the reasons why Sir William Acworth has resigned from the Committee appointed to report on the question of railway development in Nyasaland; and who has been nominated to replace him?

Sir William Acworth has resigned his seat on the Committee for reasons personal to himself. I will consider whether any addition of unofficial members is required. I should perhaps explain that this Committee is mainly of an inter-Departmental character, appointed to advise me on certain points which it was not easy to settle by correspondence. I doubt whether their Report will be of a nature suitable for presentation to Parliament, and I can give no undertaking in the matter.

In view of the great importance, not only to Nyasaland, but to the whole of East Africa, of this question of the railways, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that somebody will be put on, in place of Sir William Acworth, who has had railway experience?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, I have put on this Committee some additional members who are gentlemen of great railway experience, and whose names would carry confidence in this country. As Sir William Acworth has resigned, I will certainly consider whether additional members should be put on, but I desire the House to understand that although Sir William Acworth has resigned, there are other people with great railway experience on the Committee.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the names of these people, as the House has not been informed?

Questions on Foreign Affairs

Prime Minister's Request

I should like to take this opportunity of appealing to all hon. Members, as a general rule, not to put down questions for Monday later than Thursday evening.

Questions for Monday handed in or Friday only reach the Foreign Office on Saturday morning, and the replies have to reach me that evening. This involves not only a considerable disturbance of the routine work—often of an urgent nature—of the staff concerned, but also the regular loss of the statutory half-holiday on Saturday afternoon for a good many individuals.

Of course, cases of urgent public interest may and do arise at the end of a week, in which it is desirable that information should be given to the House on Monday, but as a general rule, and when possible, I would appeal to all hon. Members to hand in their questions for Monday not later than Thursday night.

In reference to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, do not the considerations which he has urged apply with even more weight to questions addressed to the India Office, as messages have often to be telegraphed to India and replies received before questions put in this House can be answered. And, before asking the House to agree to the proposal which he has made, would the right hon. Gentleman not consider the re-arrangement generally of the questions asked on Monday? Why apply this new arrangement to one Office, and not to another Office having to do with external affairs?

I have had no representations on this matter from the India Office. I have been moved to make this request only by my own experience in the Foreign Office.

Passports

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the annual expenditure of the Passport Office; and what is the total sum received in passport fees?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will issue a comparative statement showing the cost of administering the passport offices, together with the revenues received from fees; and whether he will consider the advisability of negotiating a further relaxation of the passport regulations or, alternatively, reduce the fees charged to the level of cost?

The total coat of the Passport Office establishment in the last completed financial year 1922–23 was £74,639. The total amount received in respect of passport fees was £112,689. These figures show that the receipts were in excess of the cost, but it must be remembered that the amount received in fees is liable to considerable fluctuation from year to year. It is not intended that the Passport Office should be treated as a revenue-producing Department, but I do not consider that it would be safe, until further experience has been gained, to reduce the fee chargeable on the issue of a passport, especially as it is now in contemplation to extend the period of validity of a passport from two years to five years, which will automatically reduce the amounts collected in every 12 months.

Has the right hon. Gentleman included visas as well as passports? He has referred only to passports.

I believe so. I have answered the question which was addressed to me.

In the case of visas which are issued, as occurs sometimes, under the Foreign Office, is there a statement that they cannot accept any responsibility for the personal safety of the person applying for the visa?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the five-year British passport is to be introduced; and whether he will give an assurance that British nationals are not to be charged a higher fee for the extended period covered by the proposed new passport?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on 26th March. The passport valid for five years will be issued at the present fee of 7s. 6d. But whereas it may be renewed at present for four further periods of two years, making 10 in all, at a fee of 2s. for each renewal, the five year passport will be renewable for a further period not exceeding five years at a fee of 1s. for each year. The total cost of a passport for 10 years will therefore be 12s. 6d., as against the present charge of 15s. 6d.

Can this very welcome change be put into force before the summer holidays?

That is a question to which I have replied before. Certain inquiries have to be made. It is not only we who issue passports but foreign countries also, and it is far better to do this with a complete understanding between all the parties concerned. The matter is being carried on.

British Prisoners-Of-War (Payments, Turkey)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he is aware that official receipts, signed by and now in the possession of British officers who were prisoners-of-war in Turkey during the late War, show upon their faces that remittances of money made to these officers from England, through the Red Cross Society at Geneva and the Red Crescent at Constantinople, were in fact continuously paid to their recipients at Constantinople at less than one-quarter of their true exchange value in Turkish money; whether he can say who were the officials responsible for these heavy losses to British prisoners-of-war; what happened to the remaining three-quarters of all the sums in question; and whether, on the production of the necessary documents in any particular case of this kind, he will be prepared to make representations on the subject to the officials and societies concerned?

I have had no information on this matter and am therefore unable to comment upon the incidence of responsibility for any alleged losses or the disposal of undue profits. Upon being furnished with full particulars, I will consider whether representations may be possible or desirable.

Greece

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information with regard to the proclamation of a Republic in Greece; and whether the new Government has been recognised de jure by His Majesty's Government?

On 24th March, on behalf of the Government, a Motion was submitted to the Assembly whereby the Dynasty was declared to be at an end and Greece constituted a Republic on condition of subsequent ratification by plebiscite. Upon this Motion the Government received a vote of confidence. As, however, the plebiscite has not yet been held, the question of recognition of a new regime has not yet arisen.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there is no question of hesitancy about recognising this Government because a Republic has been proclaimed?

There is no question of hesitancy, but hon. Members, looking into the constitutional position dealing with the conditions in which a re-recognition is necessary, will be aware that it is very complicated, and that any reply that is not very carefully considered might be very misleading.

Shipping Preference (United States)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any protest has yet been addressed to the United States Government by His Majesty's Government in regard to the recent declaration of the Inter-State Commerce Commission that preferential rates will be given to American goods shipped in American bottoms; and whether His Majesty's Government intends to take any action with a view to the modification of this decision or to counter its unfavourable effect upon British shipping?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The answer to the second part is that the whole matter is receiving careful consideration.

Peace Treaties

S.S. "Lusitania" (United States' Claim)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of money claimed by the United States from Germany in respect of losses through the sinking of the "Lusitania"?

My latest information is that these claims amounted in November to 22,600,000 dollars.

Saar

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the Saar is unable at present to maintain a local gendarmerie of sufficient strength to relieve the French garrison, inquiry has been made whether the German Government would be prepared to contribute towards the cost?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire what is the cost of the French Army of Occupation of the Saar; whether the cost of a local gendarmerie of sufficient strength to relieve the French garrison would be greater or less; and in either case by how much?

His Majesty's Government have no information regarding the cost to the French Government of the French troops in the Saar. I am, therefore, unable to reply to the latter part of the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by whom the cost of the French Army of Occupation of the Saar is defrayed?

I am much obliged to the hon. Member for putting this question, as I made a mistake in my statement last week on the subject. The French troops in the Saar are paid by the French Government.

Mexico (Government Bonds)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to give any indication as to the date when Mexico will resume payment upon its Government bonds; and whether any and what steps are being taken to safeguard the interests of British bondholders?

I am afraid I have no information as to the date when Mexico will resume payments upon its Government bonds; in reply to the second; part of the question, the interests of the British bondholders are being borne in mind.

British Claims (Turkey)

44 and 45.

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will state what proportion of the £5,000,000 Turkish gold which has been ceded by Turkey under the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne will be available for distribution to British claimants under that Treaty; and whether it is expected that the sum available under the Treaty will be sufficient to meet the total amount of British claims;

(2) whether, when the Treaty of Lausanne is under consideration for ratification, he will give full details as to the amount of British claims which come under the Treaty and the arrangements for the assessment of such claims and for the payment of such claims; and whether, if the moneys available under the Treaty are insufficient, he will be prepared to state what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take to supplement these moneys in order that claimants may be paid in full the amount of their claims as they may be hereafter assessed?

As the answer is a long one, with the hon. Member's permission, I will have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

Under the terms of the Convention between the British Empire, France, Italy and Japan relative to the Assessment and Reparation of Damage suffered in Turkey by nationals of the Contracting Powers, dated the 23rd November, 1923 (Command Paper 2028), the reparation funds, which include the sum of gold referred to, are to be distributed by an Inter-Allied Commission to the claimants (without distinction of nationality as between subjects of the Contracting Powers) in proportion to the damage suffered by them as assessed by this Inter-Allied Commission. Until the claims with which the Commission is to deal have been put forward and assessed, it is not possible to give particulars as to the amount of British claims nor as to the proportion of the reparation fund which will be paid to British claimants, nor to state whether the sum available will be sufficient to enable claimants to be paid in full. In respect of many of these claims, repayable advances have been or will shortly be made out of the fund of £5,000,000 provided by the British Treasury, which is being dis- tributed in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action; His Majesty's Government do not propose to ask Parliament to vote money for increasing the payments which claimants will receive from the Inter-Allied Commission under the Convention of 23rd November, 1923.

Ruhr (Belgian Receipts)

asked the Prime Minister what the Belgium Ruhr receipts are for last year?

As I informed the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. A. A. Somerville) on the 19th March, the Belgian Government have not made any report to the Reparation Commission on the financial results of their operations in the Ruhr.

Questions

Pure Beer Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Pure Beer Bill in this Session of Parliament?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the strong feeling in barley districts that, if more barley and less science were used in brewing, it might help a depressed industry?

Russia (Soviet Government)

asked the Prime Minister whether, if any form of agreement with the Soviet Government is reached at the forthcoming meetings between the British and Russian delegations, it will be submitted to the House of Commons before any binding engagement is entered into?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for the Drake Division of Plymouth during the Debate on the 12th February, and which I have since repeated in this House twice to precisely the same question.

Safeguarding of Industries Act

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement as to his intentions with reference to the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

If the hon. Member will repeat his question next week my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will be prepared to make a statement as to the policy of the Government.

Cadets (Fees)

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have now considered the question of reducing or abolishing the fees charged to cadets at the training colleges for officers for the Royal Navy, His Majesty's Army, and the Royal Air Force, and what is the policy of the Government on this question?

I can add nothing as yet to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on Monday last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to say anything next week if I put down a question?

County Courts Bill

asked the Prime Minister if he can hold out any hope that a County Court Reform Bill will be introduced, with prospects of becoming law, this Session; if he is aware of the hardships suffered owing to the continued delay of this Bill; and is he prepared to allow increases to be granted to County Court officials pending the passing of the Bill?

I quite realise the urgency of this Bill, and the Government hope to obtain a Second Reading immediately after the House meets on its reassembly after the Easter Recess.

Industrial Disputes (Compulsory Investigation)

asked the Prime Minister whether he would favourably consider the introduction of legislation embodying the principle not of compulsory arbitration, but of compulsory investigation before a strike or lock-out begins, with a view to imposing delay on the parties to the dispute when a stoppage of work appears imminent?

This matter is too important and raises too great issues to be dealt with by means of answers to questions.

Ex-Ranker Officers Committee (Constitution)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the limited terms of reference to the Committee dealing with the pensions of ex-ranker officers may exclude evidence being presented concerning the treatment of analogous cases in the Navy and special conditions in the Army during the War, and that such cases and conditions were dealt with in the War Office minute on the question which was circulated to the House; and whether, in view of the pledge given in the Debate, he will enlarge the terms of reference so as to include consideration of such evidence?

I cannot agree with some of the statements in this question. When the Committee has reported and there are consequences that have to be faced, the Departments and the House of Commons will have to face them. A prolonged and complicated inquiry will defeat the purposes which Parliament has in mind. Perhaps I may take this opportunity of announcing the constitution of the Committee, which will be as follows:

I do not think I made any statement in my question. I am only asking questions. Could the right hon. Gentleman answer my question, whether there are within the terms of reference the specific things dealt with in the War Office minute?

The reference that has been drafted is a reference which covers the responsibility of the House of Commons. It means that the inquiry can be rapidly finished and the report rapidly presented. If there are consequences of that, by way of extension or anything like that, then it is to be assumed that the principle has been settled.

May I ask whether the terms of reference have regard to the general conditions of service during the War in the Army only? Does that exclude the examination of the analogous cases in the Royal Marines, and does it exclude the analogous cases of the Army temporary commissioned officers, who were given commissions after 1918?

If we get a report settling the principle involved regarding the men whose cases are referred to the Committee, then, if there are analogous cases in the Navy and elsewhere, they undoubtedly must be dealt with; but if they are made the subject of investigation at the same time it means that all sorts of complex considerations must be taken into account and that will only delay the report.

There is no suggestion in these questions that the right hon. Gentleman should consider analogous cases in the Marines or elsewhere; the question is whether the right hon. Gentleman will so enlarge the terms of reference as to include in the examination of these men's cases everything that was submitted in the War Office minute, which, if I may say so without offence, the right hon. Gentleman promised to do in the terms of reference?

The expression "analogous cases" is not mine; it is an expression from the right hon. Member's own question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to receive representations from some of us who have strong views as to the restrictive character of these terms of reference?

The whole point is this: That these terms of reference raise quite clearly a principle. If that principle is settled with reference to those terms of reference, then consequences have to follow, and it is far more businesslike to settle the principle in relation to a well-defined set of cases than to expand the inquiry in such a way that the report will be very much delayed.

Before the right hon. Gentleman finally settles the terms of reference will he receive representations from those who hold a strong view that the terms are too restricted?

As a matter of fact I have delayed just over a week in attempting to get agreed terms of reference.

Not by myself. I handed over my first draft of the terms to the ordinary channels, and I waited and waited and waited, whilst questions were being put to me, and the best agreement that could be come to, I understood, had been put back into my hands. I reported the terms of reference to the House, and upon those terms of reference I invited the three gentlemen whose names I have given to serve on the Committee. I consider the thing, for the time being at any rate, finished.

Germany

State Railways

asked the Prime Minister if he has received any information of the transfer of the State railways in Germany to an independent commercial body?

I understand that the German Government issued a decree on 12th February constituting under the name of the "Deutsche Reichsbahm" an independent commercial enterprise to administer and exploit the railways, which, however, remain the property of the German State. The decree lays down that the new enterprise shall be controlled by the State pending the entry into force of a law which it is proposed to introduce on the subject.

When the right hon. Gentleman refers to the German State, does he mean the Prussian State, or the Bavarian State, or the old State?

Is it not a fact that these railways were supposed to be reparations, which we were to get from the Germans, and is it not remarkable that they are being handed over to private enterprise?

What is the attitude of the Prime Minister and his Government towards this transfer of a State-controlled, enterprise to private enterprise?

Workers (Hours and Conditions)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government, both through the Rhineland Commission and the British Embassy, will use its influence to prevent a breakdown in the standard of life of the workers in Germany by the working of increased hours and will point out, as the declared policy of the Government, that it does not desire to obtain reparations at the expense of the sweating of the workers?

The question of the hours of labour in Germany is an internal German affair, in which His Majesty's Government has no locus standi to interfere. Any representations from the Labour Department of the League of Nations would receive the sympathetic attention of His Majesty's Government.

Gold Discount Bank

asked the Prime Minister if the German Government is floating a gold discount bank in Berlin; and, if so, is it independent of the Reichsbank, and will it issue currency?

I have not seen the final text of the law authorising this bank, but I understand that it is proposed to found a private discount bank entirely independent of the Government but under the control of the Reichsbank. The bank will be authorised to issue currency.

Questions

Scottish Estimates

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state, approximately, the date or dates on which the Scottish Estimates will be set down for consideration?

This is a matter entirely for arrangement through the usual channels. The Government do not decide when these Votes are set down.

National Insurance Acts (Royal Commission)

asked the Prime Minister if he can now state the terms of reference of the Royal Commission which is about to be appointed to examine into the question of the National Insurance Acts?

The terms of reference have not yet been finally settled, but my right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to announce them without undue delay.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce legislation dealing with old age pensions?

Can the hon. Gentleman give me some more precise and definite date? Most of his replies are in the vein of that which has just been given.

The hon. Member knows the congestion of the programme at the present time, and I am sorry that I cannot name a definite date, but we hope it will be a very early date.

Is it not a fact that the congestion of business is due to the obstruction in Standing Committee A?

Members of Parliament (Railway Passes)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that many- Scottish Members are compelled by the exigencies of the railway service to break their journeys north; and whether he will, in placing the grant for railway passes before the House, make it (plain that the Government's intention is to issue passes free from any restrictions?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the proposal to equalise the position of all Members of Parliament by providing them with free travelling passes between Westminster and their constituencies, in addition to their present salaries, he will consider, as an alternative proposal, the provision of such travelling passes by an all-round equal reduction of the present salaries by such an amount as is necessary to provide the fund for the payment of the same?

I am waiting for an indication of opinion from the House on this matter.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not observe that the question seeks for an indication of the view of the Government on this matter?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it very improper that this House should vote itself a rise in salaries when everybody else has had to retrench?

As I indicated when I gave the information the other day about costs, if any approach was made to the Government we would consider it. I understand that this is in hand.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the suggestion of additional facilities being given to Members of this House, he will make inquiries as to, and inform this House of, the various facilities and privileges afforded to members of the legislative Chambers in the other self-governing units of the British Empire?

Considerable delay might be involved in obtaining this information from official sources. I understand, however, that certan information on the subject obtained unofficially is in the possession of the Empire Parliamentary Association and is available to Members in the office of that Association.

Is it not the fact that the Members of this House have fewer facilities and personal advantages than the Members of any other Chamber in the English-speaking world; and is not this a claim which we should take pride in sustaining?

Enemy Action Claims

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government propose to set up machinery whereby appeals may be made against the awards of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action?

The answer is in the negative. The Commiesion's awards must be treated as final.

Are we to understand that these people have no means whatever of appealing or of putting their case before the Department or some tribunal?

As the hon. Member knows, this duty is entrusted to a Royal Commission which went into all the facts. I do not see that there could be any appeal from the very careful judgment which the Commission has given.

Is it not the fact that it is not the Royal Commission which has to take the responsibility, but His Majesty's Government?

British Empire Exhibition

asked the Prime Minister whether he will ascertain if any political organisations have been allotted space at the British Empire Exhibition; and, if so, whether he will represent to the board of the exhibition the undesirability of this enterprise being exploited for any form of political propaganda, with a view to the exhibition being kept free from any element of political controversy?

I am informed that the only known instances of organisations which may be regarded as having a political or quasi-political atmosphere, and have been allotted space at the British Empire Exhibition, are the International Women's Suffrage Alliance, the League of Nations' Union, and the N. W. Free Trade Union. It is understood that these bodies are not there for the purposes of political propaganda, and the Board inform me that it is not their intention to allow the exhibition to be used for the purposes of such propaganda.

Industrial Reorganisation

asked the Prime Minister whether, for the reorganisation of industry, he intends to establish a Department having men with a knowledge of the practical requirements to guide present and help establishing new industries; and what steps he intends to take to compel owners of industries using antiquated methods to bring their methods of production up to date?

My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that there are existing Departments already organised with a view to assisting commerce and industry in various ways to the fullest extent practicable, and I do not think that any extension of these activities on the lines suggested is likely to be advantageous.

Where are these Departments? I tried four, and discovered that there was nobody in any of them.

Agriculture

Imported Cheese

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will consider the introduction, at an early date, of legislation to amend the Food and Drugs Act, so as to prevent large quatities of Dutch cheese made from partially-skimmed milk being sold retail as Cheshire cheese, without the fact being disclosed that a part of the food value has been removed?

I am not satisfied (hat fresh legislation is required. There have been several convictions under the Sale of Food and Drugs Act against retailers who have sold as Cheshire, cheese made from partially-skimmed milk, and my Department is in communication with a number of local authorities with a view to stricter enforcement of the existing law.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there is great dissatisfaction among the Cheshire farmers on this point and great feeling is being caused; and will he treat the matter as urgent?

Small Holdings, Warwickshire

asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of smallholders in the administrative county of Warwick, the average size of each holding, and the number of applicants for holdings who are unable to secure land?

The number of smallholders in Warwickshire provided with land under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908–19, and still in o cupation is 372, the average size of the holdings being 16 acres. 255 ex-service men who applied before the 1st December, 1920, and therefore receive preference over civilians under the land settlement scheme, and 108 civilians have been approved and are awaiting land. The county council reports, however, that it is almost certain that a considerable-number of these applicants do not now require land.

Seed Potatoes

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that a firm of English agricultural produce merchants purchased a consignment of immune seed potatoes in March last from a firm of Scottish merchants, with a certificate from the Scottish Board of Agriculture that they were true to type, and sold them to a number of farmers; that when the crop was raised in September last the potatoes were found to be badly infected with wart disease and were, in fact, as to 40 per cent. Northern Star, a non-immune variety; that the Ministry of Agriculture were immediately informed of the above facts, but up to the present has taken no action; and what steps he proposes to take to protect English farmers from false certificates, and to make good to this particular firm the heavy loss they have sustained?

As the answer is rather long, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is substantially in the affirmative. I am informed that the Board of Agriculture for Scotland are satisfied as to the purity of the crop which they certified, and the result stated in the second part of the question was presumably due to the use of other seed. With regard to the third part, as soon as the alleged offence was brought to the notice of the Ministry, inquiries were at once instituted, and a Report sent to the Scottish Board, the Department responsible, who had insufficient time, however, to prepare for a prosecution within the statutory limit of six months from the date of the transaction. As regards the last part of the question, it is clearly impossible to secure that no misuse is made of certificates issued in respect of an article such as potatoes. The question of any loss that may have been incurred is a matter, if necessary, for civil proceedings by the parties concerned.

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will issue an Order requiring that non-infected imported cattle shall on arrival at a farm be isolated as far as possible on land in the centre of the holding upon which they are brought, and that, in the event of the occupier having an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease amongst such cattle within 14 days of arrival at the farm, the occupier shall receive only one-half the value of such cattle as may be slaughtered?

The Ministry has attempted to secure the isolation of newly imported stores on the farms to which they were brought, but on most farms the accommodation rendered this impossible. I regret, therefore, that I cannot adopt the suggestion as to isolation, or that contained in the second part which I am advised would require legislation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the continuous outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease and the loss inflicted on the agricultural community and the country at large, he will issue an Order that no live stock be permitted to leave any farm or traverse any public road for a period of three weeks, it being provided that cattle, sheep, and pigs may be slaughtered on the farm for conveyance as carcases to local markets or shops, unless at the date of the. Order any farm is in a prohibited area, in which case the ordinary Regulations will remain in force, and providing that this Order shall in no way affect the importation of live cattle to be slaughtered at the ports of arrival, and that in the case of the issue of such an Order, during the standstill of three weeks, every market and every railway wagon or other conveyance shall be completely disinfected in such a manner as shall be ordered by him?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Nottingham (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) on the 24th instant, to which I have nothing to add.

May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman, if he does find it necessary to issue some standstill Order, will take steps to give ample notice to all the interests concerned?

79 and 80.

asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) if he is aware that, owing to the variations resulting from the valuation of condemned animals in the foot-and-mouth area in Cheshire, the whole market value of cows is based on inflated values; and whether he will consider officially inquiring into the whole system of these valuations in the county so as to reach some fair and agreed-on basis as between different dairy farm owners;

(2) if, in view of the criticisms among various farmers in 'Cheshire, he will revise the prices of animals slaughtered in connection with the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak, with the object of bringing up the earlier valuations to an equitable basis of value as compared with all later valuations, seeing that the October average of value of each animal slaughtered was £25 per cow, whereas in January it was £40, and that owing to this increased valuation, which substantially fixes the prices for the district, it is impossible for farmers paid on the earlier valuation to re-stock their farms on adequate lines?

I fully sympathise with the difficulties of Cheshire farmers owing to the abnormal number of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in that county, but regret that, as regards the question of valuations, I can add nothing to the reply given to the hon. Baronet on the 13th instant.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has received any information showing that foot-and-mouth disease has been spread owing to lack of proper disinfection of the clothing, etc., of persons employed in tending diseased animals; whether he considers that his Department possesses sufficient powers to enforce such disinfection; and, if not, whether he will apply to this House to grant him the necessary powers?

Very little definite evidence is available which would indicate that the spread of the disease can be prevented by the general use of disinfectants, but, as far as the Ministry can ensure it, all persons coming into contact with diseased stock are disinfected as regards their clothing and boots. The Ministry and the local authorities possess all the necessary powers to deal with the matter, but the damage may sometimes be done before disease is suspected by an owner or his attendants.

asked the Minister of Agriculture when the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Wombwell Valley Farm, Fulbourne, Cambridge, took place; if there has been any extension of the disease; how many animals are affected and of what kind; and to what cause the outbreak is attributed?

Foot-and-mouth disease was reported at Valley Farm, Fulbourne, on the 28th February, and confirmed on the following day. The total stock on the premises was 13 cattle, 37 pigs, and 136 sheep, of which three cattle were affected. Thirteen cattle and two pigs were slaughtered as being either diseased or immediate contacts. On the 25th March, disease was discovered among the sheep, 25 being affected, and 136 sheep and 35 pigs have been slaughtered. The origin of the outbreak has not been definitely ascertained, but it is possible that infection was due to a purchase on the 18th February of cattle which had been in Northampton market a few days earlier.

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease there have been during the last week?

There have been 36 outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease during the week ending Sunday, the 30th March.

Is the right hon. Gentleman's Department taking any further steps, beyond those they have already taken, to deal with this outbreak, which is still raging?

I can mention one. We are in special communication with the railway companies, and we are arranging for very special inspection of railway trucks.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that so long as the Ministry refuses to put into force a stand-still Order, this disease will never be stopped?

The possibility of a stand-still Order is under consideration, but there is very grave opposition.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether an outbreak has been confirmed in Somerset over the week-end?

May I ask whether the same does not apply to Cambridgeshire and the borders of Suffolk?

I am afraid I have no information as to outbreaks in the last few days in those counties.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that officers of the Ordnance Survey have been conducting operations over farms in which foot-and-mouth disease has broken out?

Produce (Transport Delay)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that a truck of perishable farm produce despatched from Ormskirk at noon on 11th March, did not arrive in London till 11.35 a.m. on 15th March, when it was condemned by the market inspector; that this is not an isolated case of unwarrantable delay on the part of railway companies in dealing with perishable produce; and will he make representations to the companies with a view to avoiding such incidents in future?

I have been asked to reply. I am informed by the railway company that the delay in this case was entirely due to the disorganised services consequent on a partial strike of carmen and shed staff at the company's London stations. I am further informed that the question of liability is receiving attention, and that the claimant will be communicated with by the railway company in due course.

Lactose

asked the Minister of Agriculture the reasons which actuated his Department in deciding to stop the experiments in the production of lactose; and whether, having regard to the import ance of the problem and to the reported success of Governments elsewhere, he will reconsider the decision?

This question is being again considered, and I hope it may be possible to continue experiments at the Ministry's lactose factory.

Telephone Facilities, Rural Areas

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is prepared to consult with the Post master-General with a view to obtaining extended telephone facilities in rural areas with reduced charges, so- that the system may become a factor of real service to agricultural communities?

Special facilities are already offered to farmers and others for the co-operative use of party-line telephones in rural districts. I am sending the hon. Member a leaflet on the subject. I understand that the General Post Office is also working in conjuction with the Railway Groups for the improvement of the telephone system at rural railway stations, where this can be effected on an economic basis. I would add that my Department is already in consultation with the General Post Office with regard to the question of rural telephone facilities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not make representations to the Postmaster-General to reduce the minimum number of subscribers from right to six?

I am in communication with the Postmaster-General on the whole question of telephones.

Allotments

asked the Minister of Agriculture if, in view of the duty of 25 per cent. recently imposed on the export of fresh and dried vegetables from France, he is circularising local authorities on the need of encouraging allotments and of the necessity of acquiring land for this purpose where existing areas are insufficient to meet the demand?

As stated in reply to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. T. Smith) on the 6th instant, circulars were issued on that date to local authorities urging the need of encouraging allotments and of acquiring further land where necessary.

Hops

asked the Minister of Agriculture who paid for the 9,493 cwts. of Czechoslovakian hops purchased by the Hop Controller at the instance of the Government; how much was paid for them; how much was realised by their sale; and to what account the profit or loss of the transaction was carried?

I regret that I cannot undertake to give particulars relating to individual transactions of the Hop Control, the accounts of which, as I informed the Noble Viscount on the 25th February, are not public accounts. I have already explained that the transaction in question was of a special character, and lies outside the scope of the Control's normal operations.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a profit or loss was made?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Hop Control was established for the purpose of assisting the hop-growing industry; whether he is aware that the Hop Controller in 1920 and 1921 permitted excessive importations of foreign hops, with the result that the crop of 1923 was restricted and hundreds of acres grubbed and many more wasted; that a fresh hop shortage now exists; and that foreign importations are being resumed; and whether he will appoint a Committee of Inquiry into the whole conduct of the Hop Control?

As the answer is rather long, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the first opportunity on the Adjournment of the House.

Is it not a fact that most Government interference in trade results in disastrous effects?

Following is the answer:

The importations of foreign hops in 1921 and 1922 were no greater than were then required to enable brewers to carry out their programme of brewing. Owing to the sudden drop in the consumption of beer some excess in importation over immediate requirements was created, but this excess was held back from brewers, and has been used to satisfy their requirements for a certain proportion of foreign hops in later years, during which time no licences for import have been granted. The production of English hops in 1923 was fixed at an amount which would satisfy the requirements of brewers for the new English crop and not create a further surplus. The administration of the Control, including the determination of the quantity to be produced in 1923, rests in the hands of the Hop Controller, who is advised by a Committee constituted of representatives of the hop growers, brewers and the hop traders. In view of the fact that the Hop Control comes to an end in 1925, I see no useful purpose in instituting an inquiry into the conduct of the Hop Control, which has been repeatedly approved by representative meetings of hop growers.

Rural Intelligence Bureau

asked the Minister of Agriculture what is the estimated cost for the financial year ending March, 1925, of the rural intelligence bureau; what was the cost for each of the years ending March, 1924, 1923 and 1922; of what the present staff consists; is there any increase in that staff for the year ending March, 1925, over that for the year ending March, 1924; and, if so, in what respect?

The bureau's financial year ends on 30th September. The estimated expenditure for 1923–24 is £3,326. The actual expenditure for 1922–23 was £2,265 and for 1921–22 £2,407. The present staff consists of a secretary, an assistant secretary, a technical adviser, a technical assistant, a travelling representative and two correspondence clerks. All were employed in 1922–23, but the travelling representative was not appointed until July, 1923, and until October of that year was only a part-time officer.

Wages Boards

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Bill for creating the agricultural wages board he contemplates setting up will contain any provisions for definitely fixing a, minimum weekly wage?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to state when he proposes to introduce the necessary legislation for setting up Agricultural Wages Boards; and whether he will consider the desirability of so framing the Measure as to endeavour to secure a minimum wage of at least 30s. a week for all agricultural workers?

I must ask the hon. Members to await the Bill, which I hope to introduce at an early date.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not be in a position to make a more definite statement on the occasion of the Motion to be moved by one of my hon. Friends on Thursday?

I am sorry to press the right hon. Gentleman, but we have waited a long time. I think it will be a great disappointment to Members on this side and on the other side unless he be able to make a rather definite statement in the course of the discussion on the Motion on Thursday.

Conciliation Committees

asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of conciliation committees which are now in existence; and in how many cases the decisions of these conciliation committees have been confirmed?

Sixty-one agricultural conciliation committees are in existence, but many of them have not held meetings for a considerable time. Five committees have submitted 11 wages agreements to the Minister for confirmation under Section 4 (3) of the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Act. The last of such agreements expired in October, 1922.

Law Officers

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that £30,000,000 depends on litigation on which the Attorney-General, on behalf of the Crown, is at present engaged, and that this litigation will be decided within the next fortnight; what the names of the cases are; and whether, in view of the very serious consequences to the taxpayers of adverse judgment, he will take immediate steps to secure a seat for the Solicitor-General, so as to enable the Attorney-General to attend to this litigation while the Solicitor-General may serve upon Committees upstairs as may be required?

Both the Law Officers are available to safeguard the interests of the Crown in the Courts, and the hon. Member may rest assured that the fact that the Solicitor-General has not a seat in this House does not in any way prejudice the interests of the tax- payer in this regard. It is most undesirable in the national interests that the names of the cases should be given.

Is it not therefore a vital necessity that the Attorney - General should attend to them?

Is it not very desirable that we should understand which particular constituencies the right hon. Gentleman has at his disposal to find a seat for this gentleman?

Widowed Mothers (Pensions)

asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to introduce legislation to provide pensions for widowed mothers; and, if so, when?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 20th February last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department has been stating in Lancashire that this legislation cannot be introduced until the Labour party has a clear majority; and is it the intention of the Government to hang up the matter indefinitely in this manner?

Railways (Electrification)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to indicate the progress which is being made in promoting schemes for the electrification of railways; whether special credit facilities will be arranged for schemes of this nature; and whether, in view of the plans which have been prepared in the case of most of the schemes contemplated, the work will be undertaken with the least possible delay?

I explained the position in this matter during the recent discussion on the Report stage of the Vote on Account, and I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the remarks which I made on that occasion, which I shall be glad to discuss with the hon. Member if he wishes.

Easter (Date)

asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to take steps to secure a fixed annual date for Easter?

Is it not the case that the question is now being considered by a special committee of the League of Nations?

Can we accept the statement made in another place regarding this matter, that if the Churches concurred, the Government would be prepared to proceed?

Questions to Ministers (Replies)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that many of the replies to questions are inaudible in many quarters of the House, he will arrange for copies of the replies, which are now circulated after they have been read in the House, to be available to Members immediately before each day's sitting?

Singapore Naval Base

asked the Prime Minister whether, prior to the Singapore Debate, he communicated with Mr. Charlton, the leader of the Labour party in Australia; and, if so, will he state what communications took place?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part, therefore, does not arise.

Are we to understand there is not truth in the statement made by Mr. Charlton, that he has been in constant communication with the right hon. Gentleman and has received a sheaf of telegrams from him?

I have not seen the statement. If such a thing has been published, Mr. Charlton has, I am sure, been incorrectly reported.

Imperial Institute (Exhibition Galleries)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can yet announce the decision of the Government in regard to the future of the Imperial Institute or when the necessary legislation will be introduced?

His Majesty's Government have decided that in the scheme for the re-organisation of the Imperial Institute, the exhibition galleries of the Institute shall be kept open. This decision has been made in view of representations and promises of financial support from certain Dominions, and of a very generous offer from Viscount Cowdray to contribute £5,000 a year towards the cost of the galleries. A Bill to give effect to this decision and to the other recommendations of the Imperial Economic Conference regarding the Imperial Institute will be submitted to Parliament in due course.

Negotiations are now taking place, and I will explain the situation as regards the Indian galleries when the Bill is introduced.

Are steps being taken to find other accommodation for the exhibits of the Imperial War Museum?

In the meantime, are we to understand nothing is being done regarding the Indian galleries?

West Africa (Public Services)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received further representations from the Joint West Africa Committee of the Chambers of Commerce of Great Britain asking for the dispatch of a Geddes-Inchcape Commission to West Africa; and whether he has decided against such a proposal?

Yes, Sir—from the Joint West Africa Committee of the London, Liverpool and Manchester Chambers of Commerce. For reasons which have been explained to the Committee, I have decided against the proposal.

Nauru and Samoa (Chinese Labour)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Chinese labour for Nauru and Samoa was recruited with the aid of British Colonial officials at Hongkong; and, if so, whether he is prepared to notify these officials that His Majesty's Government cannot permit such co-operation in any future efforts to recruit Chinese labour for those islands?

The Colonial officials at Hongkong take no part in the recruiting of this labour.

Nigeria (Courts of Justice)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the practice still obtains in Nigeria of excluding counsel from the provincial and supreme Courts of Justice; whether this practice has been extended to any other and, if so, what dependencies; and whether he is aware that within the last 10 years the adoption of this procedure by the Nigerian Government has resulted in some hundreds of persons being tried, sentenced to death, and executed without being allowed to engage solicitor or counsel to defend them in the Courts of Justice; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

The employment of counsel either for prosecution or defence is forbidden in the, Provincial Courts, but not in the Supreme Court. Similar provisions have been in force for many years in other dependencies where the people are in a similar state of society. I would invite my hon. Friend to refer to the relevant portions of Sir F. Lugard's Report on the administration of Nigeria, more particularly to the third and fourth appendices thereto (Cmd. 468 1920), from which he will see that the present Regulations are due to several causes, not the least important of which are in the interests of the natives themselves.

Is there any adequate reason why counsel should not represent prisoners at the provincial courts?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer is no answer at all? Viscount WOLMER: Does the right hon. Gentleman know the reasons for and against?

Could not my right hon. Friend provide legal assistance in the case of capital charges?

My hon. Friend knows that there are differences on this particular point, but in connection with capital charges, I am unable at the moment to give a definite opinion, but I will consider it, and, as he knows, I have received representations in regard to it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that the present practice is continued?

Gold Coast Colony (Takoradi Harbour)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what period of time it is expected Mr. Palmer will require to complete his investigation and report upon the Takoradi Harbour scheme; whether any interim reports will be submitted to the Colonial Office; and whether it is anticipated that the main report will be available before the Colonial Estimates are submitted to Parliament?

It is expected that a total period of about four months will be required by Mr. Palmer to complete his investigations and report. I cannot say whether he will find it necessary to submit any interim reports to the Colonial Office. He hopes to furnish me with his main report about the middle of June.

also asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the sum of £7,000 to be paid to Mr. Palmer for investigating the difficulties which have arisen in connection with the Takoradi harbour scheme is inclusive of all charges; and whether this expenditure will be defrayed by the Gold Coast Colony or by the Treasury?

The fee of 7,000 guineas to be paid to Mr. Palmer for his investigation and report does not include the cost of his passages between the United Kingdom and the Gold Coast. The whole of the expenditure will be defrayed by the Gold Coast Government.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman for what period of time these investigations are to continue for which this gentleman will receive £7,000?

The question of £7,000 is a detail compared with the expenditure that is involved and which may be saved by a Report, and I hope it is not to be understood that the 7,000 guineas are merely being thrown away. We believe—I believe—that it is a very wise expenditure.

What I wanted to ask was what length of time was to be expended by this gentleman for the reward of £7,000?

No time limit is in his contract. He is asked to do a job. This is his fee, and we believe that the job is worth it.

Guineas; but it is only fair to say that the assumption that this sum of 7,000 guineas goes to one individual is not correct. He is the head of a firm and has a staff and other people at his disposal. The 7,000 guineas include the lot.

Are the 7,000 guineas to come out of the funds of those who made it necessary for this review to take place?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is twice the salary of the Governor for 12 months?

It may be true that it is twice the salary of the Governor or someone else. My answer is that the expenditure involved is so heavy, and there may be such a loss from waste and extravagance, that the fee of 7,000 guineas is cheap if it saves money in the end.

Ceylon (Shaukat Ali)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been called to the statements made by Shaukat Ali during his recent visit to Ceylon, in which he described English statesmen as damned liars and hypocrites, and affirmed that a lakh of Englishmen does not require much killing; whether he can now state why Shaukat Ali was allowed to land on the island when it was well known that his only object was to arouse disaffection against the Government; and what steps have been taken in the matter?

I have seen newspaper reports of certain speeches of this description. As I stated in my reply to the hon. Member's question of the 25th February, I have asked the Governor of Ceylon for a Report in the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman demand the arrest or surrender of this man Shaukat Ali for trial in Ceylon?

Were not these statements made before the present Government came into office?

I could not attempt to differentiate between statements made before or after the Government came into office.

Business of the House

May I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House how far it is proposed to go with the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill to-morrow? Is it proposed to take all stages, or adjourn the Debate at 8.15, or what is the programme?

It is desirable to complete this Bill and pass it through all its stages as quickly as possible, but we would not seek to force the House to go beyond the Second Reading to-morrow evening.

But does the right hon. Gentleman think that up to 8.15 is adequate time to discuss the Second Reading?

Then you will not get it. [HON. MEMBERS: "The new dictator!" and "Mussolini!"]

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to give another day or half-a-day to complete the Committee stage, on which one rather important point arises, and for the Third Reading? Might I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, on the Third Reading, you will permit a fairly wide discussion on the principles of the Bill, in view of the very restricted time to be given to the Second Reading?

I have answered the only question of which I have received any Private Notice, and I prefer at the moment not to make a more detailed statement as to further stages of the Bill.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving further time to-morrow after 11 o'clock for the continuation of the Debate on the Second Reading?

Will you, Sir, allow a fairly wide debate on Second Reading?

I do not know what the hon. and gallant Gentleman means by a "fairly wide debate."

I am trying to help public business, but, at the same time, this is a matter of very great importance to merchants and others in this country, and of general interest. The Bill only deals with certain services for carrying out the Treaty. Will you allow the Treaty itself to be discussed on Third Reading, or only the Bill, which would be very narrow indeed?

I thought the hon. and gallant Member wished to travel from China to Peru. That I shall not allow; but I think what is relevant to the Treaty is necessarily consequential on the Bill.

Tramways and Omnibus Strike

May I ask whether the Prime Minister has by any chance any information as to the progress of the strike negotiations?

I have had no notice of the question, but I suppose the Noble Lord knows that things are pretty safe. The ballot, I understand, is going very well, and I am hopeful that matters will be found all right and normal to-morrow morning.

Bills Presented

School Teachers (Superannuation) Bill,

"to extend the period during which contributions under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1922, are to be payable," presented by Mr. TREVELYAN; supported by Mr. William Graham; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 90.]

Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill,

"to amend the provisions of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Acts, 1920 and 1923, so far as they relate to restriction on the right of possession," presented by Mr. WHEATLEY; supported by Mr. William Adamson, Mr. Arthur Greenwood, and Mr. James Stewart; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 91.]

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL [Lords]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 92.]

Orders of the Day

National Health Insurance (Cost of Medical Benefit) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Bill be now read a Second time."

In moving that this Bill be now read a Second time may I observe that the subject with which it deals is one of some controversy in the House. Owing, however, to the generous assistance and very valuable advice which I have received from the Consultative Council of Approved Societies, I am in the happy position to be able to present to the House a measure on which the parties mainly interested are in agreement. The object of the Bill is to provide money to meet the balance of cost of medical benefit and administration beyond the sum provided for by Section 7 of the Act of 1920. As hon. Members are aware, under the Act of 1920, the Minister of Health is empowered only to authorise the payment to the doctors of approximately 7s. 3d. per annum per insured person. As the doctors are now entitled to more, and as their quarterly cheque becomes due to-day, this Bill is urgently required.

May I remind the House very, very briefly of the dispute which has led to the introduction of this Bill. The doctor's fee was increased to 11s. on the 1st January, 1920, but the increase was met by a special grant from the Exchequer. On 1st January, 1922, the doctor's fee, by an agreement previously reached, was reduced to 9s. 6d. One of the recommendations of the Geddes Committee was that the Exchequer grant should be withdrawn, and the Minister made an agreement with the societies that the difference between the 7s. 3d. and 9s. 6d. should be met from the funds of the Approved Societies. The Exchequer continued to pay the grant, or difference, between these two sums up to 1st April, 1922, but from 1st April, 1922, to 31st December, 1923, when the contract with the doctors expired, as also did the agreement with the societies, the difference was paid by the Approved Societies. During the autumn of last year efforts were made by the Minister of Health to try to secure agreement between the doctors and the societies. Various conferences were held. The doctors demanded various sums in the course of the negotiations, such as 10s. 9d. and 10s. 6d., and ultimately stated that the smallest sum they would accept was 9s. 6d. per head. On the other hand, the Minister offered also varying sums, but, ultimately, laid it down that he was prepared to give the doctors the sum of 8s. 6d., or to have the matter remitted to a court of inquiry. The Approved Societies did not agree with that. They thought that for the service the doctors were then rendering they were quite well enough paid at 7s. 3d. The result of the conferences was that the matter was referred to a Court of Inquiry. That Court was appointed in December, and reported in January in favour of 9s. per head. The Bill provides for the payment of this amount. By the arrangement which I have come to with the Approved Societies the money is to be found without any grant being required from the Exchequer, or without any of the accrued surpluses of the Approved Societies which were available as additional benefits being earmarked for this purpose.

The Bill is for three years. It is hoped that within that time the Royal Commission which I propose to set up will have reported, and that legislative effect will have been given to its recommendations. As to the contents of the Bill, perhaps the experts in National Health Insurance will excuse me if I try to explain these in general and non-technical terms. If there should be questions by those who make a speciality of this subject, or criticisms offered, I will see that those questions and criticisms are answered, and when we get into Committee I will be prepared, if required, to go into greater detail. The total of the amount that is required to tide us over the three years, including the statutory allowance of two-ninths from the Treasury, is £1,762,000. That is the sum for England, Scotland and Wales.

When the right hon. Gentleman says for three years, he means not for the three years, but for each of the three years, does he not?

4.0 P.M.

That is so. The sum varies that is to be found for England, Scotland and Wales respectively, because of the differences in the costs, and in the costs of administration in the three countries. These differences are not affected by this Bill, and so I need not deal with them at any length. If hon. Members turn to Clause 1 of the Bill, and its Sub-sections, they will see how the money is to be found for England, and if and when they grasp that, they can make that the basis and outline of the others. The sum required for England is 2s. 4¼d. per head per annum. It is proposed to find the money from three sources. First of all it is proposed to take 2d. out of the funds of the Approved Societies. That 2d. is offered by the Approved Societies because they feel they are entitled to pay somthing for the services of the Regional Medical Officers who act as referees, and for keeping the central index of insured persons. Therefore, it is proposed that in future 2d. per head per member shall be paid for these purposes. Then (in Sub-section 2, b ) you come to another item. There is in connection with insurance administration what is called a Central Fund. The main purpose of this fund is to help societies who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in deficiencies. The fund derives its income mainly from what is called the unclaimed stamps sales account. This is an account which has a steady windfall from stamps that are sold and paid for, but against which for one reason or another no claim is made, and nine-tenths of that money is earmarked for this central fund. The fund is now in a very healthy condition, but, in order to strengthen it further for this immediate purpose, it is proposed in another Clause of the Bill to make a special grant of £100,000 from the reserve created by the one-tenth which does not normally go into the fund. The Central Fund, being thus further strengthened, will be in a position to give us 1s. 8¼d. per head per annum for this purpose without impairing its efficiency for its main purpose. There is another point. The Approved Societies have always had large sums of money in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners. These sums are held at a guaranteed rate of interest. The rate of interest at present is 4½ per cent. per annum. If the Commissioners obtain more than 4½ per cent. per annum for the money that they have in hand, then the excess is credited to a reserve account that goes to the benefit of the Societies. That reserve account, again, is used to maintain the guaranteed rate of interest, or, if it be sufficiently high, to increase the rate of interest. That fund at the moment is in a position to give us 6d. per head per annum for the next three years, and the societies have agreed that we take that amount. These three sums—the 2d. for the regional officers, the 1s. 8¼d. from the central fund, and the 6d. from the investment account fund—make up our 2s. 4¼d Provision is also made to take the usual two-ninths contribution out of the moneys provided by Parliament.

Clause 2 of the Bill provides for the transfer of £100,000 from the unclaimed stamps sales account, to which I have referred into the Central Fund for the purpose that I have described. Clause 3 re-enacts Section 3 of the Act of 1922 for two years. The provisions of that Section enable assistance to be given out of the unclaimed stamps sales account to societies to enable them to provide benefits to members who would otherwise not receive them because of prolonged unemployment. Clause 4 extends the Act to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a shareholder in the Central Fund, and Clause 4 provides for its getting its due proportion of the moneys spent from that fund. Clause 5 applies the Act to Scotland and Wales with certain modifications. I have already mentioned that the cost of administration in Scotland and Wales varies slightly from that in England. In Scotland it is less, and in Wales it is more. It is less in Scotland because Scotsmen are not so fond of drugs, and they save a certain amount of money and, I have no doubt, a certain degree of health. The cost of administration in Wales is higher than in England, because of the mountainous character of the country. Clause 6 makes the Act retrospective to January of this year. That is required, because the scale of fees to be paid to the doctors which I have already mentioned dates as from 1st January this year.

The Bill, as I have said, is one on which there is agreement among all the parties concerned outside Parliament. I hope I may say the same of Parliament. I hope here also we may find general agreement. I see that objection is taken to the Bill, because, it is said, no further amendment of the National Health Insurance Act should be made until the whole question of social insurance and public assistance has been investigated. May I remind the House that, apart from the financial provisions which are of a temporary nature, and which are wanted immediately, I do not propose in this Bill to amend the law of National Health Insurance at all? The problems of National Health Insurance, which I am about to refer to a Royal Commission, are themselves problems of great importance, the solution of which is sure to prove a task of great magnitude to that Commission. It is quite true that there are many other questions, such as those referred to in the Amendment, which the Government will require to consider seriously in the near future, and some of which the Government will have to face in dealing with the problem of Poor Law reform which they have promised the House to tackle at an early date. I am submitting to the House that, at the moment, it is not desirable that it should postpone the passing of this Bill until we are in a position to take that more comprehensive view, and to make that investigation of all these subjects mentioned in the Amendment, and, realising how little new there is in this Measure, and how it is urgently wanted, I hope that the House will see its way to pass it with all proper and all possible speed.

I am rather pleased that this long-drawn out controversy is approaching its conclusion, and I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the skill which I am sure he must have displayed in getting the various sections and different societies to agree on the lines that he has done. I should like to say a word or two with reference to the position, because there might have been a very awkward question raised if the right hon. Gentleman had not been able to put this Bill before us. I should say, with regard to the last portion of his remarks—that he hoped the Bill would be passed, and that he did not wish to postpone it until he was dealing with other questions of health insurance—that it is, of course, impossible for the Bill to be postponed, because the doctors will be performing their work and the money will have to be found. This is a Bill which must be carried immediately in order that payments may be provided from one source or another. The House will remember that in the time of my predecessors, Dr. Addison and Sir Alfred Mond, the same difficulty arose. The right hon. Gentleman gave us a very fair and accurate statement of the rise that gradually took place, but I think the House should know that a Bill was actually introduced to provide for a larger payment of contribution by the individual insured person in order to provide some of this money which had to be paid for the higher fees in 1920–22.

Yes. That Bill was not approved by the House, and an arrangement was then come to, as the right hon. Gentleman has told us, to supply a certain amount of money from the Treasury, and a certain amount out of the reserve funds with which we are now dealing. While the Treasury was prepared in the period of inflation after the War to provide a certain amount of money to help to meet the extra payments to the doctors, the Geddes Committee came to the conclusion that it was an improper payment to make out of public funds, and I presume, from the fact that we have this Bill, that the right hon. Gentleman the present Minister has agreed, as I most emphatically agreed. There are some 15,000,000 insured persons, and of course there is a very much larger number of non-insured persons. The taxpayers already pay something like £6,000,000 a year towards the cost of national health insurance, and I am bound to confess, knowing what I do of the position of the approved societies and of the valuations that were made four years ago when a surplus of something like £17,000,000 was found in those societies, that it would not be right to call upon the general taxpayers of the country to make any further contribution than the two-ninths which they already make towards the cost of national health insurance.

When this rather unfortunate conflict in which I was engaged between the doctors and approved societies took place in the autumn of last year, the House will remember that very violent statements were made in reference to what was called raiding the funds of the approved societies. I believe I am not very far wrong in saying that something like 400 Members of this House pledged themselves that they would not agree to any raid on the societies' funds. May I warn all candidates for Parliament against making these pledges without knowing the whole of the facts? Here we have a case which really illustrates the difficulty in which ordinary candidates are placed by being asked to give pledges without knowing the whole of the facts. The approved societies in their letter to me did use very violent language indeed:

Yes, that is so. The Minister of the Crown who is responsible has just told us that the Bill is an agreed Bill with the approved societies.

The 2d. is taken out of the funds of the societies, and the 1s. 8¼d. is taken out of the unclaimed stamps fund, and that is a fund which comes from the contributions of the insured person and the employer who have from time to time bought hundreds of thousands of these stamps, and, fortunately, have lost an enormous number of them, and they have never been used. The result is that gradually this fund has been built up, and it amounts to millions of pounds paid either by the insured person or the employer who are members of this fund. It is quite clear that these funds are being used for the payment of these expenses.

I want to lay down that medical benefit is one of the primary benefits in this matter, because the proper working and the proper development of medical benefit is really the cause of the increased health of the community in those circumstances. I do not think I am divulging any secret when I say that there is every reason to hope that when the present valuation takes place a still larger surplus will be found which will inure to the benefit of the approved societies, and enable them still further to extend the additional benefit. The only pledge I gave was that the existing benefits and the existing additional benefits should not be interfered with by the necessary money required for these further doctors' fees. The pledge I gave then proves, after fuller investigations made by the right hon. Gentleman and the public actuary under his direction, that this money can be paid without derogating at all from the benefits originally given, or the additional benefits subsequently given, and that is a very happy conclusion of the peculiar state of affairs which I found existing in the autumn of last year.

I should like to express the great obligation under which I was placed to those three Commissioners, Mr. Hughes, the Chairman of the Bar Council, Mr. Goodenough, the Chairman of Barclay's Bank, and Sir Gilbert Garnsey, the head of a busy firm of chartered accountants, who gave their time freely and energetically to deal with this very difficult problem, and who sat day after day hearing witnesses and making a fair and impartial inquiry in order to arrive at what they thought was a fair decision in the matter. The Minister of Health is prepared to accept, as anybody must accept, the findings of a tribunal of that kind. I want to impress upon the House and upon those who perhaps think money should have been found from some other source, and who consider that we are bound to exercise the most rigid economy in this matter, that I think it would have been a great pity for those who manage these great national insurance funds, having a large surplus at that time, if they had been compelled to come to this House and ask for further powers to increase their charges.

Now that the dispute is over, although it waged very hotly during my time, I do hope that the approved societies and the doctors will jointly realise that the foundation of national health is an efficient medical service. I hope everybody will realise that, after all, doctors are human beings. I took no side on this question, although brickbats flew around my head just as strongly from the doctors as from the approved societies, but I want both parties to realise the vast importance of having an efficient medical service. Doctors have great difficulties to face. It is about the most expensive profession going, and it takes longer than any other to get qualified. The work is exceedingly hard, and unless you are prepared to pay a fair sum and even a generous sum to the members of the medical profession you will gradually divide it into two classes: those who take panel practice and those who do not.

It is essential that the best men in the medical profession should be utilised for panel practice. I hope I foresee, as the result of the services which are coming from a large extension of medical benefit, some national benefit to the community. I hope arrangements will be arrived at by a majority of the approved societies, by friendly negotiations with the doctors, for an extension of the accommodation in clinics and hospitals by which the poorest person in the land may be entitled, through his contribution, to the same medical advice as either the Minister of Health or myself. Those were the schemes I had in my mind as Minister of Health, and I am sure the present Minister of Health has some of those schemes in his mind as well. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do all he can to carry out this great service and make it far more important and far more useful not merely to the individuals concerned but to the health of the community, and make it even better than it is at the present time.

I do not want to introduce anything of a controversial character into this discussion, which I understand is going to proceed on amicable lines, but when I take my mind back to the days when the National Insurance Act was being considered in this House, my mind wanders back to the time when the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken and his hon. Friends opposite, under the very skilful leadership of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) were making prophecies of what would be the condition of things 10 years hence, and I can assure the House that those prophesies were very different from the admission which the right hon. Gentleman has made today. If there were two prophecies which more than any other were enforced upon us by hon. Members opposite, they were these: In the first place, that the medical benefit would prove of no advantage or very little advantage to the community; and, secondly, that our finance under that Act was so bad that there would be no possibility of a surplus accruing of any kind for friendly societies and trade unions to give any additional benefits, and that therefore our schedule of definite benefits was a sham. We now hear that something like £17,000,000 are going to be placed in the hands of friendly societies in order to give the additional benefits which 10 years ago were regarded as a delusion. It is not often that so soon those who advance legislation of a strongly controversial character are able to see "the travail of their soul and be satisfied."

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) is very anxious to warn us against pledges being given by Members of this House and those who present themselves as candidates at Parliamentary elections. I think pledges in the form of questionnaires should be ignored, and hon. Members should not answer them unless they know something about them, and why the right hon. Gentleman assumes that a majority of hon. Members of this House gave the pledges to which he has alluded is more than I can comprehend. I gave two pledges which I think the majority of the Members of this House gave, and I gave them because I believed them to be right, and I should have voted for them if they had been proposed in this House whether I had given the pledge or not. My first pledge was that no money should be taken from the approved societies from the balance they had obtained through careful management and exceptional capacity to increase the sums to be paid for medical benefits.

I gave that pledge because it was given when the Bill was passed in 1911 to the approved societies. It was then determined that all the surplus which they could obtain through skilful management, and through a reduction of the amount of money spent owing to the better health of the community, should be placed at their disposal, and so strong were we in our determination to carry out that pledge that when the controversy took place with the doctors in 1912 and 1913, instead of asking for money from the approved societies, we then voted something like £2,000,000 from the State itself in order that there should be no plundering of the funds of the approved societies. That first pledge seems to me to be one which everyone should give who realises the conditions under which national insurance was established.

The second pledge I gave, and I think most other Members, or a large number of the Members of this House, gave it, was that if on investigation it appeared that, owing to increased cost of living, the doctors were not receiving as much money as they should be receiving in this matter, that should be put right. I am convinced, and I believe that Members in all parties are convinced, that it is no good trying to work National Health Insurance with a body of doctors, upon whom the whole burden of its working depends, who are dissatisfied with their remuneration, who are inadequately remunerated in proportion to the cost of living, who are worse remunerated than they were when the first contracts were entered into, and who have it in their power either to give a willing, heartfelt and almost superfluous amount of attention to the insured persons, or to give them very scant attention indeed. Therefore, the second pledge, or the second consideration—I am not sure that I gave it as a pledge—when the doctors came before me, was that I would support fair remuneration of the doctors as set out before any Court of Inquiry considering the matter, coming from sums outside the sums which were provided for the approved societies.

I should like to thank the Minister of Health for the very clear and lucid fashion in which he has explained the Government's scheme. I am afraid I cannot give equal congratulations to the framers of the Bill, or of the Memorandum accompanying the Bill, for anything more difficult, even for those who claim to be experts in insurance, to understand than the Clauses of this Bill, with its particular jargon and its reference to three separate Measures, instead of setting out what it does in plain words, as the right hon. Gentleman was able to do in a very short time, or anything more disastrous to general discussion, I cannot imagine. I will not say that we have not been guilty of that ourselves in times past, especially when my officials were attacked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester, and we tried to make his attack as difficult as possible. But in Bills which are generally agreed, such as this, I would very earnestly plead that some means might be given by which the ordinary Member, who has to make himself acquainted with a very large number of subjects, should be able clearly to understand, as all have been able to understand who have listened to the Minister of Health to-day.

On the main question, I am quite sure the majority of us are entirely prepared to accept what seems to me to be a singularly ingenious scheme of settling a very great difficulty. As the right hon. Gentleman has invited questions, I should like to ask him one or two questions on the matter, to which, perhaps, either he or the Parliamentary Secretary will be good enough to reply. He stated that his scheme contains no payment from the approved societies for the extra medical benefit, and that, therefore, it comes within the scope of the pledge given to those societies; and he substantiates that statement by saying that the consultative committee of the approved societies has agreed to it. I should like to get a little behind the consultative committee in this matter, and to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can assure us that a scheme which does, as a matter of fact, insist on payment from the approved societies is, in his opinion, entirely compatible with the promise that there should be no payment from approved societies. The first of his sources of revenue for this increase of expenditure is 2d. per head from every member of an approved society, less the two-ninths which is to be paid by the State. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that this would largely go to new services, the establishment of a general central medical register, and, I think, in connection with regional referees. If it is going to new services, and if the approved societies agree with it—

This will go to services which axe now being rendered but which are not being paid for by the approved societies.

So that it will, in a sense, be a contribution from the approved societies to increased medical benefit.

I am not trying to catch the right hon. Gentleman in any trap; I only want to know for the purpose of our pledges and for the purpose of general information. Then I should like to know a little more as to the source from which this total revenue is going to toe obtained. It is a very substantial amount of money, and I do not think the late Minister of Health is quite correct in saying that either he or Sir Eric Geddes or anyone else has managed to keep it out of public funds. Out of the nearly £2,000,000 estimated which will be spent during the next three years, so far as I can ascertain, a very substantial proportion will automatically come out of public funds under the grant of two-ninths. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell us how much, actually this sum will lay upon the Exchequer during those three years. I will not press him for an answer at the moment, but I think we ought to know before we go into Committee. Again, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied—because I am not confident one way or the other—as to whether the amount which is going to be contributed by the Exchequer will have to be contributed only by means of a Money Resolution in this House. It is not down in the Bill at the present time. Is it covered under the general powers of the Act of 1911? I should also like to ask whether, that amount having been computed, it is included in the general Civil Service Estimates of the year.

My next question is with regard to medical benefit. Does the whole of this sum, amounting now, as I understand, to 11s. l0¼d. per insured person, go automatically to the same kind of services which we established in 1911, or is the right hon. Gentleman providing, in any negotiations with the doctors, or any portion of it to go for those supplementary medical benefits, such as consultation, and the use of special advantages for insured persons, which we always regarded as necessary for supplementing the general conditions of medical benefit? I am interested in this because of the Unclaimed Stamps Fund, which is now being raided for this purpose. I do not think that in the original Bill we ever realised that an Unclaimed Stamps Fund would exist. I think you can search through the original Bill without finding any provision for it. It only appears in the Act of 1918. But I know that the late Sir Robert Morant, who was so fiercely eager for improved medical benefits, through this Bill or in any other way, for the mass of the people, together with myself and others, always desired that the first item on which we could obtain any kind of saving that was not owing to the pockets of the approved societies should be applied to giving a better medical benefit in addition to that of the ordinary panel system. I should be rather sorry if it proved that, owing to the raiding of this fund for the ordinary panel system, there should for the present be no chance of being able to obtain any better medical benefit.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to inform me whether, in the negotiations with the doctors, there is any possibility of obtaining that supplementary benefit which is so badly needed at the present time by the very poorest of the community. He has given us no information as to the exact amount of the Unclaimed Stamps Fund. He says that the additional £100,000 a year which is required for the additional payment to the doctors under his scheme is going to be paid out of the one-tenth of the Stamp Fund which was reserved and not previously paid into the Central Fund. Would he tell us how much that one-tenth amounts to? And. if he could obtain £100,000 a year out of one-tenth, how much will the whole sum amount to? Can he also tell us whether that sum is an increasing or a decreasing one, and whether he is merely raiding it for income which he expects will come in during these three years at so much a year, or whether he is using up a sum which has accumulated in the early stages of insurance, when people did not understand the benefits of insurance, and when, consequently, very large numbers of stamps and cards were wasted. I should like to know, also, whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks it will be possible to continue in the future his three-years system whereby there will be a perpetual income from unclaimed stamps which it will be possible to use for this purpose. As regards the third source of his revenue, namely, the income of the money which is placed by the approved societies at the disposal of the Government and which has earned more than 4½ per cent. interest, I am very doubtful whether this is not rightly to be claimed as money due to the approved societies. In so far as it is nothing more than an insurance against moneys which may be invested at less than 4½ per cent., it obviouly belongs to the approved societies, and ought in time to be paid to them in order to give additional benefit. Has the right hon. Gentleman's agreement with the approved societies led them fully to realise that this is their money that is being paid for this additional medical benefit, and, in that case, have they also expressed their willingness that that money should be used for this particular purpose?

I think everyone will be glad to feel that this long-drawn-out controversy, which was, as my right hon. Friend has said, no good to either side, may come to a satisfactory conclusion, and I am willing to believe that he has made for all parties the best bargain he can in the matter. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, whether it would be possible for him, before his Royal Commission is appointed, or before it gets to work on Health Insurance, to pass through this House an unopposed consolidating Bill, consolidating all the National Health Insurance Acts? In refreshing myself with material for discussion this afternoon, I have had to wade through very many pages of the Acts of 1911, 1918, 1920 and 1922, and the various modifications which have been made in National Health Insurance. I would also ask whether, when we come to the great social Measures, for one of which the right hon. Gentleman himself is going to be responsible—the great Measures for housing and unemployment—he could not see that a more satisfactory method than the method of legislation by reference and jargon is established, and that a more complete Memorandum setting forth the object and meaning of each Clause may be laid for the information of Members of this House.

As a member of the right hon. Gentleman's consultative Committee, I know the figures for which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman) has just been asking, and, therefore, I am not curious to put any questions on that head, but I should like to put another point to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think that this Bill ought to have been introduced until the terms of reference to the Royal Commission were before the House. Many members of the Minister's Committee, and many gentlemen interested in insurance who are not on the Committee, feel very strongly that this should be an opportunity for providing an improved medical service, and we are very anxious indeed that the terms of reference to the Royal Commission should indicate that the Commission is to inquire into the whole subject, with a view to providing a better medical service than we have at present. I am particularly interested in the case of the rural societies, which have not at the present time even as good facilities as the urban societies have, and no society has that really good medical service that we think we ought to get.

I think the right hon. Gentleman agrees that the approved societies have been very generous in their settlement with him in this matter, and I hope I did not misunderstand him when he said that he hoped the Royal Commission would report within three years. I think he will agree that it is an essential item in the agreement that they should report within three years, and that it is on that understanding that the approved societies have agreed to the scheme. I hope that, when the right hon. Gentleman nominates the personnel of the Royal Commission, we shall have an impartial Commission. I know it is felt by many hon. Gentlemen in this House that National Insurance is so exceedingly complicated that such a Commission, however eminent its members, will not be able without great difficulty to grasp all the intricacies of the National Health Insurance system. I do not believe that that is so at all. I believe that, if you get an impartial tribunal who are not interested, either directly or indirectly, on behalf either of friendly societies, insurance companies, or trade unions, you will get a far more valuable Report than if you have all these different and differing interests represented on the Royal Commission. I venture to put it very strongly to the right hon. Gentleman that, when the Royal Commission is appointed, it shall be an impartial Commission, and that, if he thinks that it requires more expert advice on the different phases of insurance, he should give it assessors who can represent the points of view of the different bodies interested, but that those bodies themselves should not be directly represented on the Royal Commission.

I should like the Minister to tell us a little more clearly from where this money is coming. I have heard it said that hon. Gentlemen from North of the Border can get money from anywhere. I think my right hon. Friend has shown, by his ingenuity in getting this money, that he is a true Scot. My mind goes back, in listening to this discussion about the attitude of the medical profession and the agreed settlement that has now been reached, to the time when I was taking part in negotiations with the medical profession in the autumn of 1912, when we had some very heated arguments and long drawn out negotiations, particularly in the Lancashire district, and I was more directly interested in this because it was in the area that I was concerned with where the alternative scheme of medical service was going to be introduced had the medical profession failed to come into the Act at that time. Their attitude today and the point which has been gained by the medical profession first of all has utterly disproved the contention that the Act of 1911 was going to bring ruin to them. It has improved their status—I admit they may not have the same time for research work that they had formerly—and, in addition, it has created one of the strongest vested interests in the country. In any industrial town to-day a boy or girl over 16 years of age insured under the National Insurance Act is already linked up with a medical practitioner. In nine cases out of 10 the practitioner gets also the private practice. What is the position of a graduate leaving the University and desiring to open out in the medical profession? I think I am entitled to submit that the whole position of the medical profession to-day, beyond what they have been able to secure under this settlement, is a remarkable testimony to the ability of that profession to safeguard its own interests. In the last few days one has heard appeals for some better method of dealing with disputes and the troubles through which we have just passed. To my mind, the workers have an object lesson in the Bill we are discussing to-day.

I want to put one or two questions to the Minister. He was very careful in introducing the Bill to say it was an agreed Measure—agreement had been reached between representatives of the approved societies and the medical profession—and I thought he was exceptionally careful about the terms he used. No part of the surplus of an approved society was to be used to pay the medical profession. But surely he knows full well that if he is going to take 6d. per member he is going to increase the expenses of an approved society and so reduce their surplus when the next valuation takes place. I know there was a surplus of £17,000,000 at the last valuation, and the next valuation will show an even greater surplus—a remarkable testimony to the efficiency of National Health Insurance—but I do not think it is quite stating the position fairly to say that because this 6d. per member—2d. per member for three years—does not come from the surplus of the approved societies, the approved societies are not going to pay it, because after all that 6d. per member will be an additional charge upon them for administration and is bound to affect their surplus for good or ill. It must not be forgotten that as the surplus has been improved by good management and careful administration, good sick visiting and supervision of members instead of benefit, so a society is penalised by slack administration altogether, and they must face that alternative in three ways, increased subscriptions, reduced benefits, or a special levy on their members, and at one time the Ministry of Health had a policy of amalgamating as many societies as they could into one large organisation, largely destroying the individuality of the smaller approved societies.

I should like to say a word or two about this unclaimed Stamps Account. I am sure some of my hon. Friends would have liked the Minister to be a little more clear about it. After all, it cannot be denied that this fund is created by unclaimed cards—the contributions of employers and workers—and you can go into any model lodginghouse in London, particularly about the docks, and you will find hundreds of pounds' worth of stamps which have been left behind by the casual workman. There is not a Departmental office of the Ministry of Health which is not dealing with cases of men and women who are coming to claim benefit. They find they are not entitled to it on account of being in arrear. You try to trace their whereabouts, and you find men who have been in the Mercantile Marine, men engaged particularly down at the docks, who have left their cards in a model lodging house, and that is where your great surplus has been formed. I am sorry such a fund exists. It shows some great weakness in the system of Health Insurance. I am not going to admit that the stamping of cards is the best way to administer National Health Insurance, and I hope, when my right hon. Friend has the opportunity, he will refer this aspect of the question to the Royal Commission which he proposes to set up. I hope during Committee to make some suggestions as to control by the Ministry, or by Insurance Committees, in regard to medical services. It is to the unbounded credit and honour of the medical profession that its members as a whole have responded so loyally. But there are exceptions. When a medical practitioner does not carry out his duties you call him before an inquiry by the local insurance committee, and the terms upon which you decided it are not whether he has been guilty of neglect but whether his retention on the panel is detrimental to the carrying on of an efficient medical service, always resulting, I believe, in a kind of verdict of not guilty, but do not do it again. I hope the Minister will take these matters into consideration when the Bill goes into Committee.

Amid so much approval it is, perhaps, rather churlish of me to give utterance to dissatisfaction. I noticed this morning that there is a surplus of the country's revenue of something like £42,000,000, and I cannot help thinking the right hon. Gentleman opposite would have been better employed in using some part of the surplus in the coming year, disclosed by that of the past year, in providing the money that is necessary for the purpose he has in view without raiding the societies themselves, because, although the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman) has, to my mind, easily satisfied his conscience, I cannot see any other source from which the Minister is getting his money except from the funds of the societies themselves. If that is so it seems to me he is inviting the House to deliberately commit a very grave breach of contract with the people who insure. The Health Insurance Act is nothing else but a Parliamentary contract. You, the insured people, will contribute so much, you the employers will contribute so much, the State will add two-ninths and, whatever the result may be of providing statutory benefit, if there is a surplus left behind that, the whole of that surplus shall belong to the approved societies themselves and be devoted to one purpose and no other, the purpose of providing additional benefits for the members of that society. By what justification does the right hon. Gentleman now ask the House of Commons to depart from that contract on the face of which these monies have been subscribed, which he himself is now taking for another purpose? In his opening speech, as I understand it, he admitted the truth of that in so far as he spoke about surpluses. What is the difference between the surplus of a society and the monies which are left after paying their expenses and the benefits of the previous year? What are such monies except surpluses? It is mere quibbling with words. Am I right in stating that all these monies that he is taking are the monies of the society?

5.0 P.M.

Looking at the introductory explanation of the Bill there are only three items through which the 2s. 4¼d. is to be got. Under ( a ), it admits, on the word of the Department, that 2d. is coming out of the funds of the approved societies. How did you induce the approved societies to agree to that when they requested every Member of the House to pledge himself that their surplus should not be raided? If you take Item ( b ), it takes 1s. 8¼d. out of the monies in the central fund. The central fund is provided under Statute, as I understand it, for making good deficiencies where they exist, and after those deficiencies are made good, or if they do not exist and the money is not wanted, they are funds that belong to the societies themselves. They are the monies of the societies themselves and the right hon. Gentleman is helping himself to this large slice of Is. 8¼d. Lastly, when you take Item ( c ), the 6d. making the total 2s. 4¼d., that is taken out of the interest earned on the proportion of the Insurance Fund retained in the National Health Insurance Fund Investment Account beyond the prescribed rate of 4¼d. per cent. credited to money spent on that Account. What is that principal money on which interest has accrued? It is the money of the societies. If it happens that they are earning more than 4½d. per cent. at the present time, and only 4½ per cent. is being credited to the societies, that does not mean that the balance belongs to anybody else but the societies. The Insurance Commissioners may keep it in their hands as a guarantee in cases where less is earned, and where it may be kept for the purpose of making good a falling off in interest, but here it has been divorced from that purpose entirely, and it has been taken to pay money that to my mind ought to have been paid by the Government themselves. What have the approved societies to do with the fixing of the additional payments to the doctors? Nothing! The original increase to the doctors—and I think it was perfectly well deserved and a perfectly proper thing to do—was made by one of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors. It was suggested that the insured person ought to pay it. It was paid out of the taxpayers' money, and when it came to be reduced then, for the first time, there was a suggestion by Sir Alfred Mond, when he was Minister of Health, that the surpluses should be retained for that purpose. I took some active part in opposing that proposal, and we succeeded, on the Motion I made in Committee, in defeating Sir Alfred Mend's proposal, and we save something like £1,000,000 of these surplus funds. If it had not been for the fact that by his persuasiveness he succeeded in getting the approved societies to approve of this raid, I should have been more emphatic in the protest I am making. But I do feel, as one who is strongly interested in the small rural societies, where we want everything that we have, where our means are small, that we depend on the contributions we are forced to pay to obtain increased benefits. Only in that way does the rural society get real value for the money it has to contribute, and on their behalf I protest with all the vigour I can against this unjustifiable taking of the money from our small societies.

I desire to express my complete concurrence with the protest which has been made by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley). I am not going to discuss the details, because I think he has truly set forth the place from which the money is to be taken. It is to be taken from funds which belong, or which ought to belong, to the approved societies. Therefore I regard this as an infringement of the principle on which the original Insurance Act was based. The point of view from which I regard this discussion and this Bill is this. At the time that Act was passed, I was strongly in its favour and I, along with a number of friends, took part in Scotland in forming a large society which operates over a large part of Scotland. It has been very successful and has done a great deal of good. We told the rural workers of Scotland that the Government had given the pledge, that has been referred to over and over again, that if, by good and frugal management, they succeeded in building up any surplus, that would be theirs for the benefit of their members. That was repeated over and over again practically in every district of Scotland. Not only did we do that, but when our society was formed we appealed to the local members of committee and the local secretaries all over Scotland that they would regard this society not as a money-making concern, but that they would give their services largely on account of the nature of the work being done. They gave their part-time services and in that way our administrative expenses were reduced to the minimum, all that being done by local secretaries and committee members for the express purpose, and on the express promise, that if they succeeded in saving up surpluses these surpluses would belong to the members of the society for health purposes. I repeated that over and over again when our society was formed, and practically at every general meeting of our society. I regard this proposal to take the surpluses as a misappropriation of the funds which ought expressly to have been devoted to the purposes I have referred to. I do not think the language which was addressed to the ex-Minister of Health was at all too strong to describe the effect of what was to be done.

It does not exaggerate my opinion with regard to what was proposed. I had no hand in the framing of the circular. I attended the meetings and I tried to express myself in somewhat similar language, and I share it still. I say that if these funds were taken from the societies I should feel that I had been guilty of taking part in what is going to be—I do not want to use exaggerated language—a great wrong to the members of the societies. It is probably now not so bad as it might have been if circumstances had remained as they were. I have some sympathy with this proposal because it does profess to pay some respect to the principle, although it has not carried that out in effect. I repeat what I have said, that I think a great wrong will be done to a class of people who are at the mercy of Parliament to an exceptional extent, and who are only heard through the Members who represent them in this House. There is another point of view from which I dislike this. I regard myself, as every member of the board of an approved society must do, as a, trustee for the sick members of the society to guard the funds which are destined for helping the sick in their time of sickness. There is no more sacred trust to be found in the country, and there is nothing that any hon. Member of this House would more dislike to have to disregard or break. I therefore join very warmly in the protest that has been made against this Bill.

There is one aspect of the discussion in regard to which I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Health. The statement was made that the societies have built up surpluses amounting to £17,000,000. I am not quite sure, and I would like to know whether that is intended to include the money that has been set aside to cover the liability of the members during the remainder of their lives. If so, it is not a surplus at all in the proper sense; it is a reserve fund, which is a liability. Even if it is there after providing for the reserve fund, it belongs to the societies; but we ought to have the figure. I would also like to know what is the precise amount of the money which has been deducted from the societies through the keeping back from societies of some of the interest which is derived by the Government in respect to the money held by them in trust for the societies. Of course, on general principles, everybody will admit that it is quite wrong for the Government, who are acting as trustees for the societies, to keep back from the societies a proportion of the interest they are receiving in respect to these funds. I should like to know the figures.

They are entitled, of course, to have a fund, as the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead says, sufficient to protect them against loss through some fall in the interest or loss on investment. I should like to know how much they have accumulated in their own hands in that respect and what rate of interest they are receiving at the present time, and how much they are keeping back for the future. Their position rather suggests to me that they are like the millers. Corn is sent to them to grind, and when they deliver the meal it is found that there is always some meal that sticks to the miller's thumb. I fancy there will be a good deal of the money they nave received in respect to these investments which they have been keeping to themselves and have not been accounting for. I know that I speak for a large number of people who are engaged in working the Insurance Act when I say that there is a very strong feeling against any attempt to take this money. I would like to say that the people who have asked for these pledges, as well as the people who have signed them, know perfectly well the principle on which they have been standing. I doubt whether anybody in this House will stand up and justify that any part of the funds of the societies should be devoted to these additional payments. Do not let the House be under any mistake. The members of the societies are not at all satisfied that the claim of the doctors for the amount which has been given to them has been made out. The court of inquiry, I have no doubt, was composed of men well chosen. I say nothing except with respect to what they have done, but I do not think they had the material on which to form an opinion as to what the doctors ought to receive. If they had had that information in regard to the income which the doctors were receiving before the Insurance Act was passed and they had added to that an allowance for the change of circumstances since that date, they would have been able to see how far the income which the doctors will now receive is justified. The general public are not persuaded, and when the Royal Commission comes to inquire into the question I hope they will insist on receiving all the information which is required to enable the right thing to be done.

I am glad the hon. Member who has just spoken has referred to the Royal Commission, because I regard the setting up of the Commission and its subsequent recommendations as, perhaps, the most important aspect of this matter. I was disappointed that neither the Minister of Health nor the Prime Minister has been able to intervene in this Debate and announce the terms of reference to the Royal Commission. It is very important that those terms should be full and ample enough to cover every phase of the national insurance question, and I hope the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to make an announcement today does not mean that there is any difficulty or dispute concerning the terms. The only thing that can be said by way of criticism of the Bill is its duration. The last Clause says: hon. Friend might be incorporated and that there should be a certain number of impartial people on the Commission, probably a majority, with some persons who have acquaintance with the matter. I know of few more technical subjects than the question of national insurance, and I agree that, so far as the majority of the Commission is concerned, it would obtain the confidence of the country more if the majority of persons appointed to the Commission were impartial.

We have had a speech from the right hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Master-man), whom we are very glad to hear once more in our Debates. Many of us remember his connection with this subject. He has a past in this matter, just in the same manner as has the ex-Minister of Health, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks). Both these right hon. Gentleman, in turn, endeavoured to justify their past and all that they have done in connection with this matter. The right hon. Member for Rusholme pointed to these benches and said, "Think of the days when I introduced National Insurance and what you said about it." My right hon. Friend is, to a certain extent, entitled to make these reproaches, but it is only fair to say that national insurance has been amended many times since he introduced his proposals. If the proposals had remained exactly in the form in which he presented them to the House, the results would not have been so satisfactory as they are to-day. He will be glad to know that a consolidating Measure has been introduced into the House of Lords, and that in future he will not have to go through all the Statutes of which he spoke this afternoon.

My right hon. Friend the ex-Minister of Health endeavoured to justify himself, and I regret to say he endeavoured to raise the old controversy as to whether the funds of these societies should be used for the extra payment of the medical profession. I have no desire to follow him into past history, because this Bill, in the judgment of the approved societies, avoids, on the one hand, going to the Treasury for money, and, on the other hand, it avoids going to the funds of the societies for the necessary payments. As regards the Treasury, I do not want my right hon. Friend to think that many of us who differed entirely from him wanted to see the Treasury raided. The difficulty of the situation was that my right hon. Friend offered arbitration to the medical profession, but at the same time he said the Treasury was not going to pay for it. That put the approved societies into a false and unfortunate position. We could all offer to go to arbitration and to abide by the result, if we did not have to pay for it. It may be said that the funds of the approved societies are, in a sense, raided. On this matter, I want to read a statement sent to me by the Chairman of the consultative council, Mr. Thomas Neil, with regard to one portion of the money which is now being utilised: only fair to the societies who have obtained pledges from hon. Members of this House to say that they are not playing fast and loose with those pledges. I do not think the right hon. Member for Twickenham has made out that when hon. Members signed these pledges they did not understand them. We are not in the same position as the Prime Minister, who apparently does not read his pledges. I never heard it suggested that the case of the approved societies was not put quite fairly before hon. Members who gave their pledges. Therefore, it ends up with this, that if Members of Parliament do not desire to give pledges there is no compulsion to do so. I do not know of any Member of Parliament who has come forward to-day and said that he did not understand what he was doing when he gave the pledge. I have not seen anyone who supports the right hon. Member for Twickenham in the statement he made on this point to-day.

The general view is that if you are going to encourage approved societies to be well managed it will not do on the very first occasion that you want extra money to attack them and take money from their funds. Directly you begin to take money from the surplus of the societies, you are making it much more remote the day when you will get good management. The great attraction to these societies is that under this scheme the well-managed society is to be rewarded, and the badly-managed society is to pay for it. Directly you begin to tamper with their surplus, you attack that very important principle. A very definite contract was made with these societies. The right hon. Member for Rusholme has pointed out that a very definite pledge was given to the approved societies in 1911, and in the Statute itself is embodied the exact amount that should be contributed by way of medical benefit. I do not think it is a wise principle for either Conservative, Liberal or Labour to say, "We are going to tear up that arrangement and to come down upon your funds because other people are demanding more money from us."

I am glad this matter has been settled by the Court of Inquiry. I am also glad that no medical man went to the Court of Inquiry and said, "Whatever the result, we will not abide by it." The doctors stated their case, and got their verdict. I do not say that I should have given the same verdict as did these three distinguished gentlemen. I think the medical profession are very well paid in connection with national insurance. I do not want to take one penny from them to which they are properly and legitimately entitled, but one cannot overlook certain aspects of the present medical service. Whilst I believe that the great majority of the medical profession are endeavouring loyally to carry out their contract, that cannot be said for every one of them. I am glad there has been an important alteration made in connection with medical service, and that now anyone who wishes to change his or her panel doctor can do so by taking their card to another doctor on the panel I do not think we shall get an efficient medical service giving proper value for the money now being paid when we still have these large panel lists.

The present number of 2,500 persons on one doctor's panel is far too large. When you remember that doctors have a private practice as well in nearly every case, I do not see how in many cases we get a proper return for this very large remuneration. My right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham has said, quite rightly, that we want a well-paid, satisfied medical service. But the insured persons are entitled to something in return. Last year we paid nearly £6,000,000 to the doctors for medical treatment. In addition, there was another £400,000 distributed among rural practitioners in connection with mileage, and there was another sum for drugs supplied by doctors. These large sums of money paid for medical treatment must not be overlooked when we hear that the surplus funds of approved societies are to be used still further to make payments to the medical profession, as it is a matter that requires careful consideration.

I have wondered why hospitals do not come forward and say that they are entitled to some payment on this account. My limited observation leads me to believe that a very large amount of the work which in the ordinary way would be done by the average doctor on the panel is now sent to the hospitals. You will find that three-fourths of the outpatients of most of the hospitals are insured persons. If more money is going to be spent on medical treatment, I would like to see far more encouragement given to the hospitals of the country, which relieve the medical profession of a great many of the duties imposed on them under this Act. Therefore it is right that that other side of the matter should be put before the House. While I praise the medical profession for all that they do, it is essential that we should see that adequate treatment is given to the insured person. I doubt whether it can be said that a Very large number of insured persons receive the same treatment as private patients, which is what they are entitled to.

This Bill is a compromise and I am glad that it has been arrived at. I do not particularly congratulate my right hon. Friend; the gentleman who is to be congratulated in connection with this matter is the Government Actuary. The Minister of Labour said that he was not a wizard who could produce rabbits out of a hat. He ought to have consulted the Government Actuary, because my right hon. Friend was in a grave difficulty when he approached this matter. Every Member of the Government was pledged, I believe, to resist the surplus funds of approved societies being used to pay extra money for the medical profession, and Sir Alfred Watson came nobly to their rescue, because I remember the days when approved societies went to the Minister and asked for extra money for administration expenses, and there was not a penny to be got. But to-day we find these funds suddenly discovered. My right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham had no idea of the existence of these funds when he was at the Ministry.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon. I do not always blurt out things that I know.

I notice that my right hon. Friend has not denied it, and I am sure that he would not have put Members of Parliament and candidates at the last election, to the necessity of making a choice as to whether they were going to receive the support of these societies or not, if he knew that two beautiful nest eggs were waiting to be discovered.

I think that I ought to interpose. I wrote, I think, to nearly all candidates at the last election telling them, in answer to questions, that these moneys could be paid without any hardship to the existing or the additional benefit.

My right hon. Friend is quite right. I remember that he also told Members of Parliament and candidates that the whole matter was sub judice. I could not follow him in that connection, but, be that as it may, it is a matter of congratulation this afternoon that it has been found that it would not be necessary to go to the Treasury, because nobody wishes further raids to be made on the Treasury. At the same time I believe, perhaps with some little difficulty, that the principle which the approved societies support has been maintained, and in Committee I hope that we shall have some further explanations from my right hon. Friend as to the drafting of the Bill, because it is somewhat difficult to follow. I hope also that the right hon. Gentleman will state clearly that there will be no extension of this matter, because the societies pin a great deal of faith to the statement that in the interval this matter will be inquired into, and some permanent solution arrived at.

I have to confess that I find some strain on my loyalty to the Government in giving unqualified support to this Bill. I, like many other Members of Parliament, was pledged against any raid upon the benefit funds of approved societies, but I was pledged with my eyes open, while a great many Members of Parliament, I believe, gave pledges not knowing all that was involved in this matter. My association with this subject is as old as that of the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway. He will remember the struggle to get this Act of Parliament, which is applauded on all sides of the House nowadays, going at all. Indeed, we could not get it going for some time. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who is not in his place at present, drew very glowing pictures of the benefits that would accrue from this Act. He talked about "rare and refreshing fruit" and about "9d. for 4d.," and in this way he overcame a real prejudice against the innovation of National Health Insurance.

He had to contend with dividing societies, which saw that by the direct payment of given contributions they could, without any speculation whatever, be sure of a given return of benefits. He had to contend with big friendly societies, who had in their way done much to make this Act possible, and then he had to contend with another group, perhaps a little more numerous, but equally important, who were actually called to go into the homes of the people up and down the country. Finally, in order to secure the adoption of this Act it was necessary to circulate statements and deliver lectures, and I well remember that one of the main statements was: "This Act is being initiated in a certain condition of finance. We are financing it on a Government guarantee guarded by experts. As funds accumulate, benefits will improve and, ultimately, we shall have the additional benefits." We have been a long time in getting additional benefits, but they are beginning to arrive. A few of them are being delivered now by well-conducted societies, but that has but whetted the appetites of the membership of these societies for a still further extension of benefits, and, personally, I am under no delusion, when I see the provisions of this Bill, as to where the money is coming from, or perhaps I would prefer to put it another way: as to where this money would go to if it were not directly expended at the present time upon the doctors.

I have not a word to say about adequate remuneration for services rendered. I know enough about this Act to know what an essential service the medical service is in connection with this Act, but I have been wondering how far the doctors would like applied to themselves the same rule of remuneration as is usually applied to the ordinary workers in the country, such as tramway and transport workers. For instance, I wonder how they would like to be fixed on a strict index basis. I wonder how they would like to be assessed on something like the amount that was paid for medical service of this description prior to the introduction of the National Health Insurance, plus the rise in the cost of living, or something on that basis. However, I do not wish to say anything against any adequate standard of remuneration. I have less objection to that since that has been the subject of an inquiry and a figure has been arrived at. My main purpose is to enter my protest against the method by which they are being paid. I am aware, too, that the medical benefit is so essential that it must be paid for, and if we have got to yield to this payment required I do want to put up a plea in connection with this Act, that inquiry shall be made into the services rendered by the doctors.

There will be less objection in my view to even paying the amount of money directly if we could have a larger measure of control over the doctors, if we could always be sure that the highest standard of service would always be rendered for the payment which they receive. Then another important point, which reduces my objection somewhat to this Bill, is that the period is limited. The whole question has to be inquired into. I suggest that this inquiry should cover adequately the whole field of National Insurance, not only insurance against sickness, but insurance against unemployment, the moneys paid under the Poor Law system, and moneys paid in many ways, which might be centralised and co-ordinated, and, above all, removed from the pauper taint. As I conceive it, insurance is to meet a casualty. At one time it is unemployment, at another time it is sickness, another time it is workmen's compensation, which is a phase of insurance. These things might be so regulated that a huge saving might be made by a great co-ordinated scheme of administration. In any case the whole field should be adequately explored.

When you think of the services of the medical profession, do not forget the services of those who have made the large and small approved societies what they are now. The payment of doctors is incomparable with the niggardly administration allowance made to approved societies. There are many men indirectly employed in this work. It is not merely the work of the administration of the societies. It is all the work involved in the delivery and collection of cards and the payment of benefits, and the inquiries which are involved. Whilst it is popular to applaud the doctors' services as most essential services under the Act—if you take the text of the original Act it was for the prevention and cure of sickness—I would put in a plea for the many, for the 100,000 employés, who are engaged in the administration of this Act through approved societies, whose work makes for the smooth working of the Act, and who originally made the Act possible by their close contact with the people and by popularising the Measure. This Government must keep pace with that point of view. There is not the slightest doubt that this Act was propagated largely on the ground of expectancy of additional benefits. We all understood that the benefits current when the Act was introduced, the benefits revised when the contribution was advanced a little while ago, were all the normal benefits, and we were expecting additional benefits. I appeal to the Minister of Health not to lose sight of our pledge, not only as individuals, but our pledge generally to the people of the country who insured under the Act, that they had an expectancy. As often as we take moneys like this, even indirectly, from benefit funds, so often we are making encroachments upon the expectancy of additional benefits.

I do not intend to go very deeply into the subject, because it has been so ably and carefully dealt with by the several speakers who have preceded me. The note which has run through the last speeches is, I think, the note that there appears to have been some manipulation by the Minister of Health, in conjunction with representatives of the approved societies. The Minister of Health has to be dealt with somewhat kindly in the matter, because he found himself up against an exceedingly great difficulty. He had to find the money which had been awarded by the Committee of Inquiry which was set up. He was faced with the same difficulty as his predecessor in office, namely, that unless the societies bore the additional cost he would have to find the money from the Treasury. In the appealing way he has, he was able to persuade the approved societies and the consultative council that he was prepared to listen to any reasonable suggestions that they had to make. The approved societies are reasonable at all times. They had one primary object in view, and that was to see that their members got the very best that was possible out of the approved societies. They realised also that the one essential benefit, the benefit which re-acts upon the funds of the societies, is a good medical service. If you have a medical service which is disgruntled and dissatisfied, and complaining as to the amount received, that bad feeling re-acts in a very bad way upon the insured people themselves. Therefore, the Minister was faced with a very great difficulty.

The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor in office, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks), said this afternoon that when he had to deal with this matter he had to receive a good many of the bricks. I quite agree. He was concerned with the early stages of negotiations. Hard things were being said and heavy things were being thrown at that time, but if it had been my right hon. Friend's good fortune to remain in office as Minister of Health—I wish it had been—I think he would have found that the bricks would have been turned to bouquets. The bouquets which the present Minister of Health is receiving are bouquets which I think he ought reasonably to divide with his predecessor in office. The point has been raised this afternoon that the approved societies have agreed to a system which is tantamount to breaking their pledges as trustees. I am not very satisfied myself with the arrangement that has been made. I would have preferred that application had been made and had been forced upon the Minister that he should have taken this money from the Treasury. But a way has been found which to some extent has salved the consciences of the consultative council and of the approved societies, and they have been led to believe that the amount which is going to be found for the payment of the doctors at the rate of 9s. is coming from some hidden source which they might not have been able to touch for a considerable time if they had ever been able to touch it at all.

There is attached to the Ministry of Health a very clever gentleman, to whom the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has referred, a sort of wizard who, when great pressure is brought on the Ministry, particularly in connection with health insurance matters, is able by a turn of the wheel to produce wonderful amounts of money which no one ever thought existed. If the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister of Health had been able to go to the societies when he made his proposals, and had said to the societies, "From some cupboard, of the existence of which until recently I knew nothing, I have found an amount of money which will satisfy the doctors, and we are not going to ask for any raid to be made on your present funds for additional benefits," I think he would have found an easy way out of the difficulty. It has remained for his successor to find the amount. As I understand the approved societies, they set their face very strongly against any further raids upon the surpluses. They have discovered, for the first time, that a vast sum of money remains in the fund. Now, for the first time, they know that the amount of interest on the invested funds is very much greater than the 4½ per cent., the sum which is guaranteed, and they are not likely, in future applications made to the Ministry for further sums for the development of societies, to forget these newly-found resources.

I must say a word upon the question of the 2d., 1½d. of which they are contributing as part of the cost of regional medical officers and the central index of insured persons. Before the setting up of the system of regional medical officers, the societies had to find the money for the medical examination of those members as to whose capacity for work they had some doubt. The sum which they had to provide for medical examinations was far more than the amount which they are paying to-day to the Ministry for these examinations. Quite honestly and properly they came forward and said. "We are in fact saving upon this 1½d." They are not giving away the funds of the societies. They are acting generously but honestly by saying, "We have received a benefit greater than 2d., and therefore of the benefit we have received we propose to give back something to the Ministry to help it in its present difficulty." The Minister of Health said he had to thank the approved societies for the assistance they had rendered to him and the good advice given to him. I hope that as long as he remains in this particular office he will remember with gratitude the way in which approved societies came to his assistance.

There is one other thing I must make perfectly clear. In connection with the settlement and the arrangements made with the approved societies, that they would agree to the amount being found from this particular source, they laid great stress on the fact that it was essential that a Royal Commission be set up to inquire into the administration of National Health Insurance. It is a little unfortunate that the Minister was not able this afternoon to give in more detail the terms of reference of that Royal Commission. I want it to be made clear that the approved societies are seeking diligently for that inquiry. They limited their consent to the amount which shall be contributed towards this extra expense to a period of three years, but they hoped that within the three years the Royal Commission would have sat and would have delivered its judgment. The approved societies have agreed upon this Measure with some diffidence.

6.0 P.M.

Although I support the Minister of Health in the Measure which he has introduced this afternoon, I reserve to myself this: I support it because I believe it is in the best interests of the societies, but I do not like the way in which the approved societies have been persuaded to get round their consciences, and say that the amount, after all, is not being taken out of their funds.

The hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Meller) speaks with knowledge and authority on everything connected with approved societies. I notice in the Debate of this afternoon that quite a number of speakers seem to be in doubt lest the doctors should be claiming and receiving more than the equivalent of the services which they render. I took an active part in the Debates in this House when the original Measure was going through. I was then a voice crying in the wilderness. I stood out, first of all, for 6s. as being enough for the services proposed under that Measure provided there was an income limit. I proposed to place a limit to those who could command medical services under the Act. I desire now to say a few words about the basis of contract practice. Private practice is the ideal relationship between doctor and patient. When a person is ill, and requires the services of a medical man, he calls him in, pays him for the service which is rendered, and there the relationship ends. The person only seeks the doctor when he is ill, he pays him for his services during that illness, and the service and the payment there end. That is the ideal system. Contract practice, however, is based upon the necessities of a large number of people who cannot afford to command medical services when they happen to be overtaken by illness. That is the whole basis and justification of contract practice.

The working man who only earns a wage sufficient to keep the wolf from the door, when he is stricken with illness is doubly stricken because he ceases to earn and he has not, as a rule, saved anything. He is unable therefore to command medical services during his sickness. Because there is a large number of people who, when overtaken by sickness are unable to command medical attendance, contract practice has been initiated and doctors have always, quite rightly, accepted it as inevitable and have been willing at all times and in all countries to attend to those who are sick for a contract price based upon contributions made during the period when these people are well. If the basis of contract practice is due to the inability of individuals to command medical services when those services are required by them, because they are unable to pay when illness overtakes them, then contract service should be confined to that class of people, in other words to legitimate members of medical clubs or approved societies, working men living in working men's homes and earning working men's wages. That is the original basis of membership and it is only such members of contract societies who were intended to enjoy the right to medical service on contract terms. Let me show the House what that means. If the contract practice is to be confined to working men living in working men's homes and earning working men's wages, then the diseases in respect of which a doctor has to attend a particular person in that category are limited in number. He is only called upon to attend such persons in respect of a few almost minor diseases. All the major diseases are eliminated. If a man is attacked by fever he cannot be treated in his own home but must go to a hospital, where he can be isolated and disinfected. The result is that the contract doctor or club doctor has not to attend any infectious diseases, these being eliminated by the very nature of the case. The same remark applies to other major diseases. In the case, for instance, of double pneumonia, a man cannot be treated at home. He cannot pay for a nurse, he cannot receive proper attention in his home, and consequently that disease also is eliminated from the category of diseases which the club doctor is called upon to attend. So it is with operations. A working man living in a working man's house cannot be operated on under conditions which give him a reasonable chance of recovery, and consequently operations are also eliminated from the work of the club doctor.

So I might go on through all the major diseases and accidents which the working man, living in a working man's home and earning a working man's wage, cannot have treated at his own home but for which he must go to hospital. Living in a working man's home, he cannot have special attendance and special facilities for treatment, and earning only a working man's wage he cannot pay for extra attendance, for consultants, for chloroform and special nursing. Consequently a contract practice is very limited indeed and, being limited, the contributions paid should be equivalent to that service. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir Kingsley Wood), who always pays the House the compliment of showing that he has studied a question and has prepared what he has to say upon it, expressed doubt as to whether we were not paying the doctors too much for their services. It all depends upon what service you demand. I have shown that the working man demands a very limited service, but who are the members of the approved societies to-day? They are not all working men living in working men's homes and earning working men's wages. There are men belonging to approved societies who live in what working people would regard to mansions, and a man who has a large home and a large income makes bigger demands upon the doctor who attends him and his family. If a man has extra rooms in his house he can be isolated in case of infectious disease. If there are more rooms than he requires for his immediate needs he can command one or two nurses, a day nurse and a night nurse. If he has a banking account he can bring in consultants, if he has a good income he can insist on operations being performed at home. If we introduce into the approved societies a wealthy class of member, we introduce also a wealthy class of patient; and a wealthy class of patient makes an infinitely greater demand upon medical men. That is why doctors were content with 2s. 6d. a few years ago but now find 9s. insufficient.

The income of the manual worker does not limit his right to membership. An artisan might be getting £10 a week or more. He might have other sources of income besides his employment. He might have a rich wife or a big banking account. The point I wish to make is that you must distinguish between the different amounts of service demanded from doctors. The working man demands a service which may be represented by the figure five, while the rich man may demand a service represented by the figure 50. He may demand 10 times the service of the working man and attendance on 10 times the number of diseases. [ Laughter. ] Yes, I think that is so, because, as I have shown, he will, if he is wealthy, call in the doctor for cases of double pneumonia and major diseases of all kinds which, in the case of the working man, would be treated in hospital or elsewhere. If you ask the doctor to attend to more diseases and graver diseases you must pay him in proportion. The hon. Member for West Woolwich seemed to think that doctors might be giving inadequate attendance. We must distinguish between inadequate attendance upon a particular disease and inadequate attendance spread over a large number of diseases. A doctor might resent being called in constantly by rich patients who, in his opinion, make an unfair demand. I never heard doctors complain about attending to the proper and legitimate class of club patient. I have known doctors to resent being called up by rich patients who make upon them demands never anticipated by contract practice and therefore never paid for in the contract price and never anticipated under the National Insurance Acts; and as long as we do not distinguish between people who are limited in earning capacity and in home accommodation, and, on the other hand, people who are otherwise situated, then you will have these continual complaints and the constant tendency for doctors to claim more and more because more and more demand is made upon their services.

When the Insurance Act was going through in 1911 I made three strong points, and I got no support from the medical profession or in this House, but I think they will bear re-statement. The position I took up was that the 6s. then offered was ample, provided the class of people who could command medical service was limited for the reasons which are given. I advocated that there should be an income limit beyond which a medical officer could make a charge according to a stated catalogue of fees. I did not advocate that there should be a limit for those joining an approved society, but that there should be a limit for those who could command medical attention without paying private fees. If a doctor could show that a member was in receipt of more than, say, £250 a year he could send in a bill for his services according to a limited scale, properly set out and adjusted. The onus of proof would be on him to show that the patient in question was in receipt of more than the income limit of £250 or £300 a year. If the patient were in receipt of more than that and if the doctor could prove that he was in receipt of more, then he could claim according to scale these limited private fees. Another point which I then advocated, and which I advocate still, is that wherever a patient's disability arose from an illness or an accident for which he claimed and secured compensation, provision should be made for the medical fees. I have in mind the case of a man who suffered from an accident due to the gross negligence of another person and who called in his panel doctor. The doctor gave long and tedious attendance to the case, and the man afterwards got a large sum in compensation.

In that case I think the doctor suffered a great injustice, because he was giving the injured man his services on behalf of the other person who was responsible for the accident from which the man suffered. In such cases there should be included in the compensation claim some provision for the doctor who has to attend an insured person. If compensation is afterwards granted, the amount granted by the Court should include the doctor's account. These are points which deserve our careful consideration in any revision of the law. I believe that if greater demands are made for payments for doctors, those payments should not be taken out of the funds that have been accumulated in good faith for other purposes. I gave a pledge on this point, and I intend to honour that pledge, and I am not quite sure that ample provision is made for the payment of the extra money for the doctors out of funds other than those that have already been accumulated; but I have no doubt that any defect along those lines can be remedied in Committee.

I followed the speech of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Dr. Chapple) with some confusion, somewhat as I am accustomed to follow arguments about bimetallism, and I am not sure that they conveyed any very distinct impression to my mind, except the illuminating thought, which had never struck me before, that the more nurses a patient has, the more work he gives the doctor. I do not know whether that is an invariable rule, but that was a side light on the situation of which I had never thought.

I am sorry the noble Lord did not follow me, and I am not quite sure whether it was because of my inability to express myself clearly or his inability to understand an argument, but what I said, or tried to say, was that if a person was ill and could afford to have nurses, he would then be able to call the doctor in, but if he required nurses and could not afford a doctor, he would have to go to a hospital, and owing to the fact that he could not stay in his own home to be treated, the doctor would not be called upon to attend him, and therefore his services would not be required.

I do not want to follow the hon. Member into the ramifications of the three points in which he was so interested in 1911, nor do I want to follow other hon. Members into the question of pledges, though I must say that I immensely preferred the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) and the speeches of the hon. Member for Forfar (Mr. Falconer) and the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Palmer) to the speech of the right hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman). Those three speeches did seem to me to represent a clear grasp of facts and realities, and I envy the right hon. Member for Rusholme his ability to find flattering unction to lay to his soul when it is a question of pledges given. I am not, of course, for one moment suggesting that he is not fully, by his attitude, carrying out what pledges he did give, but—

I am not certain of my own attitude. I asked certain questions, which, I understand, are going to be answered.

The right hon. Gentleman seems to have given pledges that almost preclude any satisfactory answer, since he has promised the doctors more than can be provided out of the approved societies' funds.

I am sorry again to interrupt the Noble Lord, but I definitely said in my speech that I had made no promise to the doctors at all, but that I thought they had a case.

The right hon. Gentleman thought the doctors had a case for improved remuneration as compared with the figures of the 1911 Act, but he was equally sure that that money must not come out of any funds mentioned in the 1911 Act. I will return to that point at the end of my few remarks, but I must confess that I cannot understand the idea that there is something peculiar about the central fund which enables drafts to be made upon it which could not be made upon the funds of the approved societies, and I mention that, not to continue the discussion about pledges, but for this reason, that there is, I think, a distinct question in my mind whether the central fund is in some ways the most appropriate fund. It must be remembered that the central fund was constituted by the 1918 Act out of funds which would otherwise have gone to the discharging of the liabilities of the Insurance Commissioners to approved societies in respect of reserve values, and according to some doctrines to which we are treated at the present day, I suppose the constitution of the central fund itself was to be regarded as a raid upon the funds of the approved societies, but for what was the central fund constituted? It was constituted under Section 4 of the 1918 Act for this purpose:

There are certain specific points that I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to answer when he replies. The Minister introduced this Bill without any actuarial explanation, except that printed on the Bill. He will remember that when the 1922 Bill was introduced, there was a statement by the Government Actuary printed as a White Paper with the Bill. In the absence of any such statement with this Bill, there are two difficulties which I should like to have explained. This Bill is different in two respects from that of 1922. In the first place, under the 1922 Bill a 9s. 6d. fee for the doctors involved a total cost of 12s. To-day, at a fee of 9s., the total cost is 11s. 10¼d. Therefore, costs other than the capitation fee itself have gone up by 4¼d. a head. To what are those extra costs due? Are they extra travelling allowances to doctors in rural districts, or extra costs of administration?

My second point is this: Under the 1922 Act the whole of the addition was paid out of the funds of the approved societies, and none was paid out of Exchequer funds at all, but it was provided that at the next valuation date the societies should be credited with the two-ninths with which they would have been credited if, at the valuation, the funds which they had paid out towards the additional cost of the panel had been devoted to additional benefit; that is to say, that the State's two-ninths has been deferred and will be deferred until the year beginning 1st April, 1925. From that time onward the Exchequer will have to bear retrospectively for five years a sum of about £180,000 a year. This Bill goes on quite a different basis, and provides that the current demands shall be met as to two-ninths by the Exchequer year by year, as I understand it. Therefore, the effect—I am only asking for verification—of this will be that during next year the Exchequer will bear an additional cost of some £390,000 under this Bill, and that from 1st April, 1925, for the next two years the Exchequer will have to bear a total sum of something like £570,000 a year—that is to say, the cost under this Bill, plus the accrued cost under the last Act—and I should like to know whether that is true, and, if so, what has been the reason for the different handling of the Exchequer contribution under the two Measures.

Now I come, in conclusion, to what is, after all, the most important question, the question of the future. The hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Meller) and other hon. Members spoke of the Royal Commission. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman expects to be able to announce the names, or whether he can give us any statement on that subject now, but the Commission has to deal with an appallingly difficult problem, and this Bill shows how difficult the problem is. I think that if the right hon. Member for Rusholme had to work the Act, he would realise that in many respects, as his own speech showed, it is a thoroughly unworkable Act. You cannot in the long run go on managing medical benefit on a system which, according to the right hon. Gentleman, precludes you from taking out of insurance funds an adequate payment for the medical profession, and which forces you, therefore, to carry on temporary arrangements from year to year under agreements with the approved societies, that puts Parliament almost in a position of having its hands tied, and not being able to do anything which has not been approved by the approved societies and the Minister. That is an absolutely impossible position.

The Act is wholly unworkable in its present state, and if the Commission is to do any good—and we pin a great many hopes to that Commission—I do hope that all hon. Members who have spoken in this Debate will join together in not prejudging the findings of that Commission, for statements have been repeated again and again in this Debate that Parliament has no power to do this, or that, or the other, and that a contract arrived at in 1911 is a binding contract for all time, and has to be interpreted in the way that the approved societies now contend. All these arguments, in effect, amount to this, that nothing that the Royal Commission reports can be carried out, except either at great cost to the Exchequer, or as the result of an elaborate arrangement with approved societies. Do not let us commit ourselves to that position. Let us rather look to the Commission really to find a solution of our difficulties, and look to the Government to hasten on that Commission's work by every means in its power, and bring to this House, in due time, a Bill which will really put national health insurance not merely on a basis of temporary expedients, but on a permanent basis.

The subject-matter of this Bill is a simple one. It is a question as to how the doctors are to be paid their 9s., and, although the answer might be rather complicated, the question itself is a simple one, and it is to that that I wish to confine myself. Certain speakers have made reference to raiding societies' funds, thereby implying an imposition by the Ministry of Health on the approved societies of payments that they do not wish to make. I think it is only fair to the approved societies to emphasise the fact that this agreement is an agreement with the approved societies, and one with which they have expressed themselves as being perfectly satisfied.

When the award was given, we entered into negotiations with the Insurance Consultative Council and with the Emergency Committee of the Approved Societies.

Does the hon. Gentleman mean that all societies were consulted, or only some big representative societies like the Prudential? Were all the smaller societies consulted? Have they all approved?

The Ministry of Health has normal machinery for consultation carefully set up, and the consultative council representative of the approved societies was consulted. That is the machinery we found to our hands. We utilised it, and we got an agreement with the consultative council which the emergency committee of the approved societies also support. Consequently, I think such criticisms as have been made this afternoon about the raiding of the funds, and about the misapplication, the misuse, of the funds of the societies, are beside the point, if I may say so. The answer is to be found in the fact that these approved societies—large, important bodies, with a full knowledge of the working of the Insurance Acts—have not been hoodwinked and drawn into some solution which they could not understand. It is an agreement, and its financial aspects have been arrived at after very careful and very prolonged examination of the whole question of medical health insurance finance by the Ministry of Health on the one hand, and by the representatives of the approved societies on the other. The right hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman) asked certain questions, some of which, I think, have been answered. The 2d. to be paid by the approved societies is not for a new service. Strictly it is a payment in aid of administration as regards the regional medical officers and the Index Clearance branch of the Department, both of which are regarded by the approved societies themselves as being a distinct asset to the societies, and with the expenditure on which they themselves have expressed themselves as being in agreement.

No, but obviously in the whole question of finance it comes into the book-keeping.

The cost of it has fallen on the Department. Then, as to the cost to the Exchequer, the additional two-ninths contribution will be, in a full year, £390,000. Then my right hon. Friend asks whether there would be any Money Resolution? I understand that the charge which we are now proposing is covered by the Act of 1911. It is part of the Statutory two-ninths, and, in consequence, no separate Money Resolution is necessary.

The hon. Gentleman will pardon my interrupting, but it is rather an important point. I understand the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health to say that there is no charge upon State funds. What the hon. Gentleman now tells us is, that there is a charge of £390,000 for each of three years. Does that mean another charge of £1,000,000 upon the Exchequer?

My hon. Friend knows perfectly well that we have got to pay two-ninths as a Statutory payment, and that must be paid as regards this new expenditure.

I agree, but I am trying to fit that in with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate.

I am sure my right hon. Friend made that quite clear, or intended to make it quite clear. Then the right hon. Gentleman asked whether this new additional expenditure which might be spent had been included in the general Estimates for the year now about to begin. That expenditure is not so included, and we shall have to ask later for a Supplementary Estimate, because the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Estimates were planned before it was known what kind of solution we were likely to arrive at on this question. With regard to the question of the unclaimed stamps fund, the right hon. Gentleman asked how it arose, and the hon. Member for Ketter- ing (Mr. Perry) referred to the casual worker. That fund was largely increased during the exceptional period of the War, when large numbers of new workers came temporarily into industry and became compulsorily insured persons. They never anticipated getting any benefit out of it, and, no doubt, large numbers of them destroyed their insurance cards. Out of that kind of windfall, there is a surplus which can be utilised without imperilling the insurance scheme.

Can the hon. Gentleman give us any figures? I do not want to press him now.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the unclaimed stamps are a distinctly decreasing quantity?

There is always an accumulation in that fund, but during the War period it was added to at a much more rapid rate, because of the quite exceptional circumstances arising during the War. That, I hope, will not occur again.

That I could not say. Then the right hon. Gentleman asked about the Consolidation Bill. He has already been informed that it has had its Second Reading in another place, and has gone to the Joint Select Committee. The hon. Baronet the Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) is, I think, under a misapprehension. He implied, if I understood him aright, that the unclaimed stamps account is available for additional benefit. I assure him that is not so.

It has been appropriated as to nine-tenths of it to the deficiencies of the approved societies.

Under the Act of 1918 certain money passes to the central fund, which has to be used for making good deficiencies. This proposal as regards the unclaimed stamp account is made on the assumption, after careful calculation, that that account can well bear this additional charge upon it and still leaves a sufficiency of money to meet the claims made upon the account under the Act of 1918. If I may refer to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Forfar (Mr. Falconer) about the surpluses, I think he has misunderstood the facts of the case. Before a surplus is declared, an actuarial reserve is set aside to cover the future liabilities in respect of every member. I think, therefore, that his argument rather breaks down on the assumption that no such actuarial reserve was made.

I did not make any argument. I merely asked a question, so that I might know the facts.

Then on the question of the payment of 6d., this is not being taken from any surplus of the societies. The societies, as is commonly understood, agreed to the 4½ per cent. interest. The investments have yielded a surplus which has been retained by the Department to be devoted to the maintenance of the interest on that level.

I understood the hon. Gentleman, a little while ago to say that the interest was fixed by the Government. I have never heard it was a matter of agreement between the Government and the approved societies.

If some of these approved societies had not agreed we should have heard about it. It has been in operation for some time.

I am quite aware it has been operative, but it is a matter of complaint that one frequently hears, that the Government fixed the rate of interest on the whole amount which they were actually receiving. If it is not so, I shall be glad to be informed.

Is it not really the implication of the 9d. for 4d. That whatever accrues, even whether it is held by the societies or the Ministry, is ultimately to have the benefit of the principal, less expenses?

I will not go into the question of 9d. for 4d. This has the acquiescence of the approved societies. In answer to the question put by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), the 4¼d. additional cost since 1922 arises in this way: Additional expenditure upon drugs 3 ½d., and additional charge for mileage in the rural districts ¾d., making 4¼d. May I just say a word about the pledges. I should not have referred to them had not the Noble Lord raised the question. So far as I understand the position, those who have given pledges have been absolved from them by the approved societies. I understand that is so. I understand that the different societies have informed the Members who gave these pledges that this Bill is an agreed Bill, and in these circumstances I trust the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.

Before we pass on, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will publish the White Paper, to which reference has been made, setting out the views of the Government actuaries? I do not press the matter at the moment, but he knows that I have suggested three names for the Royal Commission; has he yet considered these names?

In reply to the right ton. Gentleman, I do not see any reason why the White Paper should not be made public, but I will inquire into it. With regard to his second question, the names submitted by the right hon. Gentleman will be considered with all the weight that attaches to his recommendations, but the Commission has not yet been appointed.

I desire to enter my protest against this Bill. Naturally I accept the statement of the Minister of Health as to the absolving of Members who have given pledges. On the other hand, I personally have received no notice from those friendly societies to whom I gave a pledge that I would be no party to their funds being raided. They have not notified me of any settlement; hence, in view of what I have said, I enter my protest against the Bill. What does it come to? We are postponing the difficulties which are before us until 1926. That is the most we are doing. Meanwhile we are giving the doctors the increased fees, and for the first time, as I understand the Bill, we are really raiding the funds of these societies for that purpose. I cannot for a moment agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings. He made a statement which was to me a very startling statement, that Parliament, if necessary, and if it considers well, can divert funds collected for one purpose to another purpose. Parliament can do it, but I hope that every man who cares for his honour will vote against it. These funds may be wanted, but in my view they cannot be taken from the societies in this way.

When I look at the accounts, what do I find in regard to the investments? That they are held on behalf of the societies? More than that, these societies, if I recollect the Act of 1911, have the power to select in what securities these funds shall be invested. If it proves true—I hope it may—that there is a large surplus of these funds for the original purpose of the Act, then that surplus should be applied to increase the payments for which these poor persons were compulsorily called upon to contribute. We know how much in arrears these benefits are. Take the dental benefit. Many societies on the trade union side of the approved societies and on the benefit side are out of funds for this purpose. Many societies are in that position, and in my judgment the members of these societies are entitled to benefit in the way I have suggested.

I gather, further, that we are making a direct raid upon these funds by demanding the 2d. extra. I want to point out, in my judgment, how greedy the doctors have been throughout. When this Bill was introduced in 1911, the first proposal was to allow the approved societies to deal with the doctors themselves. They had given an excellent service, I think, for 3s., and in some cases for as much as 5s. Many of the friendly societies agreed. It was at the instance of the doctors that these insurance committees were introduced which involve expense in the administration of the fund. The societies wanted to administer them themselves and to make their own arrangements. They thought they could have done it much more thriftily than Parliament, or any Insurance Committee—and they were right. I ask the Minister who is introducing this Bill just to contrast two things. On the one hand the suggestion that the restrictions in the administration of old age pensions counted as vexatious penalties to thrift shall be removed, while here you are putting a direct penalty on thrift. These are the moneys of these people, not yours, and they ought to have been a trust most sacredly guarded. What really happens then? As I understand it the doctors got 7s., and they have now got it increased to 9s. 6d.; these various increases given for Some reason or another have been given over the heads of the contributors by Parliament. For the first time Parliament has got rid of this burden. The matter ought to be reviewed. What happened at the beginning? The doctors wanted 13s. They were offered 11s. If they had been offered about 8s. or 9s. it would probably have hit the mark. They asked for arbitration and got it, and they got 11s. I agree it is a burden; but I also submit that the country ought to pay its debt of honour in this matter. Consider a man in the insured trades, he does not take home the whole of his wage of 30s. or 35s. or £2—his weekly wage is less these charges. We are really making a raid on this fund, and I protest against it, I say that in my judgment the Ministry would have been much better advised to have taken a fair stand, to have dealt with this question, and to have faced the strike if strike there was to be.

7.0 P.M.

Take 99 per cent. of the men in the societies. I undertake to say that if they had been asked they would have said: "We will make our own arrangements." This bargain has been made over their heads, and I want to point out there is no settlement in it. What is to happen? This is a temporary expedient for three years. If I had caught Mr. Speaker's eye before the Parliamentary Secretary had risen, I should have liked to ask what is his proposal at the end of the time? There will be no more money in those funds. Where is what is required to come from? It would have been better to have agreed with your adversary when you were in the way with him, and to have settled the matter now, or, at any rate, to have got some reduction; for the longer these higher payments go on the more it will strengthen the case of the doctors. They will say we have got 9s. 6d.; by standing firm we got what we wanted, and what chance will we have when these funds are exhausted to start the matter on a better and a firmer footing? I do not want to repeat the arguments already used, but I agree entirely in what has been said in regard to the doctors. In my judgment they are well paid, and I have no hesitation in saying that. Let me remind the House that there is no County Court collection of these men's debts; they get their money from the State. I have been in the County Courts as a young member of the Bar, and time and time again I have heard a County Court Judge calling out the various sums due to the local doctor. A lot of it was never collected at all. They did it on contract. They had no anxiety and no risk. Take two cases within my own knowledge. Doctors quite rightly have travelling allowances in the country. A carter slipped and broke his leg. He was sent in a motor car to the doctor who said, "You cannot do better than send him to Maidstone Hospital." There was another case of a man who slit his finger. He walks to the doctor; attends at his surgery. It has to be borne in mind that it is the great aggregate of cases we have to consider. There are a great number of men who pay for sick benefits and who never put their names upon the doctor's panel at all. I am told that at the last Election 2½ per cent. never put their names down. Now the societies claim that these moneys should go to the benefit of the societies in that the doctors have done nothing. The Insurance Commissioners take the other view and say, if a man does not select a doctor, that which is payable by him goes to the doctor. Therefore, in addition to the capitation grant for everybody who appears on the panel they take about 12½ per cent. of fees paid by men who are not on the doctor's panel at all.

Often, men never select a doctor. Therefore, they never go on a panel at all, so they could not demand the services. A doctor could say, "I am not bound to take you." At the last election it was put before us on definite, reliable information that there were 12½ per cent. of the insured persons who were never on a doctor's panel at all. The doctors claimed this money and the Insurance Commissioners gave it to the doctors.

Is it not the case that the insured person can go on a doctor's panel at any time and, since the doctor is liable to attend them when they get ill, they also serve who only stand and wait, and the doctor stands and waits?

The hon. Member seems to have a little difficulty in understanding my point. It is quite true that at any time any person either insured or who becomes insured can go on a doctor's panel. Now some man, for some reason—perhaps he prefers his own doctor who will not have a panel practice—who is an insured person, does not put his name down on the panel. He becomes ill. The panel doctor says, "I am not bound to attend."

He will always get a doctor. One part of the function of the Insurance Committee is to provide doctors.

I rather doubt that. At any rate, the figure is given as 12½ per cent. I have risen to object to this Bill. I consider, if I voted for it, it would be a breach of my pledge. I will be no party to that. I want to enter my protest, and if I should be in this House in 1926, which is a long possibility, I should certainly vote against any Bill that proposes to raid those funds as this Bill does.

I think we are agreed that the Government has shown great ingenuity in meeting a very difficult situation. There is one point on which I think we are entitled to rather more information than we have received, and I hope, when the White Paper is laid before the House, we may have much fuller information as to the unclaimed sums in the sale of stamps fund. We do not know the total amount of the residue out of which this large payment provided for in Clause 2 is to be made and what the residue left will be. I have heard a very earnest plea made in this House on behalf of members of approved societies. The money that is in this fund has been paid in by people who are not members of approved societies and who have got no one to speak for them, and I think it is very important that there should be some residue left. If this residue has been, I will not use the word raided, but drawn on now, it should be ultimately applied for the benefit of this class of people. It is a serious question which the Royal Commission should look into to see that this leak in the whole scheme should be stopped. There is a large number of people paying for their insurance stamps sums amounting in the aggregate, to millions, and getting no return for their payment. I am quite willing to admit that a considerable sum may be due to accidents. Stamps get lost or destroyed through accident, and it is quite right the Government should have the duty of dealing with those sums. There are other sums due to that class of worker to which the Under-Secretary alluded, temporary munition workers and other war workers, and other people now who go for a short period into industry, but who have no intention of remaining. It is quite proper that in so far as that fund is due to the money paid by those classes, the Government should make use of it.

But there are other classes, and unfortunately there will remain other classes, the most helpless and unprotected members of the community, on behalf of whom this House is in the position of trustee. We have already had allusions to the casual labourers. They are members of the community who are in many cases quite unable to look after their own interests in this respect. They do not understand the importance of insurance. But there is, very unfortunately, a considerable section of domestic servants and charwomen who still do not realise the importance of insurance. I have been amazed coming on cases of domestic servants who for years have been allowed to remain in service by unscrupulous employers without payment of insurance in any way. They have lost the whole benefit of this Act. Then they have gone into employment with honest employers, and the mistresses have insisted on the stamps being stuck on the insurance card. It has often been a matter of struggle to persuade servants to accept the charge. I have had cases brought to my personal knowledge. Sometimes, unfortunately, the servant destroys the card and does not make the use of it that the Act intends. A great many of the stamps that have gone to make up this fund have been purchased in that way. We are trustees for those people. We should see that the fund is used for the benefit of that class of the community.

There is another class, of which I have had personal experience, whose need is very great. There is a very large number of people who come out of prison who have got in arrears with insurance, and I personally have had experience of quite a number of young fellows coming from prison who for one reason or another have never been insured. When they do get a job very often they just get a temporary card. They get casual work, and go from one job to another, and, from my personal knowledge, too often these cards are destroyed and not made use of in the proper way. I have had personal experience of one case of a boy with tubercular tendencies, an orphan, who had been in and out of prison for trifling offences, including sleeping out. He spent months in the employ of an unscrupulous small employer who had never given him insurance stamps, and this little boy—he was under 20 and looked 15 or 16—anxious to keep his job, had never insisted on his right, and he had been robbed of his insurance money. The moment he went to another job, he would take a temporary card, and, not understanding the position and the importance of it, he would destroy the card instead of making use of it in the right way. That has happened repeatedly in similar cases. This is a class which must not be neglected. It is not right that we should take money which has come from their pence and just hand it over to the doctor for treating other people, unless we can be sure that there is a residue left in this fund which may be applied for the benefit of those most unfortunate members of the community for whom we are trustees.

I want to put one point of view which has been neglected, and that is the point of view of the Medical Officer of Health, who looks on the remuneration from the point of view of the public requirements of the nation as a whole. The point of view of the public obviously demands it shall have the best service it can possibly get at the lowest price, and, if you can get good service at a lesser cost, that is to the advantage of the community. What is too often forgotten is that medical attendance is not a thing you can buy by the yard or dish out by the piece. The medical attendance that is required is only given in accordance with the will of the giver, and the doctor may consciously or unconsciously give according to what he feels he can give. It is impossible to talk about giving it or withholding it from the point of view of a strike or from the point of view of de- mand, or the cost of living, or by comparison with any other kind of remuneration whatever. You have to give what is demanded and hope you will get a good service in return. It is for that reason you can only trust the medical men to give as good a service as they are prepared to work with you. They are prepared to work with you. There is this always to be remembered, that the medical profession is liable to be recruited, or not to be recruited, by the possibilities that await the young student when he is choosing his profession. At the present time all the Government Medical Services are finding difficulty in recruiting their men. If we had gone back to the old condition of the clubs and tried to get the cheapest possible service, you could have done it, but only by taking the very worst service of the profession. The Insurance Act is a tremendous advance. We have to continue that advance, but to do it you want a constant flow of recruits to the profession. You have to stand well with other professions to attract men at the outset. Therefore it is from the large point of view that you want to see that you get as much remuneration as you can for the medical man. Those who look at this question merely from the point of view of the actual increase from 7s. to 9s., will see that it does not represent a 30 per cent. increase, and, therefore, it will be seen that the medical profession have not made an undue demand. It has been suggested to-day that it was the approved societies which demanded, and obtained, the right of the patient to choose and change his doctor. As a matter of fact, that was the demand not of the approved societies but of the Insurance Acts Committee of the British Medical Association, and they have always been keen in regard to the absolute freedom of choice in this respect. They recognise that this provision would give more freedom, and they are glad that it has been granted.

A good deal has been said about the pledge which was given on this subject. The pledge demanded from me at the last election on this question was absolutely unjustified. It was demanded by the approved societies, and it was conveyed to me by some half-dozen representatives of an old approved society, and I met them perfectly squarely by saying that we were not in a position to judge on this matter, and, therefore, I was not in a position to give a pledge. I believe that was the right position for anyone to take up who did not thoroughly understand the question, and was not familiar with all the details. When a pledge is demanded in such a way as this was demanded many people would be afraid to refuse to give it, but I was able to refuse, and the result was that I increased my majority. Candidates when placed in a position of that kind, if they would take the same strong independent line as I did in regard to such pledges would get a very much increased majority corresponding to the increased respect for the candidate who takes his own line of action.

Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

West Indian Islands (Telegraph) [Money]

Considered in Committee of the Whole House, under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That it is expedient for the purpose of providing a system of telegraphic communication in and with the West Indian Islands and British Guiana, by means of submarine cables and wireless telegraph stations, to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums not exceeding £400,000 as may be required for such purpose; to authorise the Treasury for the purposes of such issue to borrow money repayable by means of terminable annuities, the principal and interest of which shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund; and to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the annual expenses of the said system."—[ King's Recommendation Signified. ]

This proposal is in no way a contentious topic. The short point is that the question of improving the telegraphic communication with the Lesser Antilles is a subject which received the very serious consideration of the late Government. As a matter of fact, the proposal we are now making is strictly in accordance with the arrangement that they made. I may go further and say that it was only the General Election and the pressure on Parlia- mentary time that prevented the late Government from introducing this Motion. As a matter of fact, at the present moment we are under contract with the West India and Panama Telegraph Company. It is a 10 years' contract, and it expires in 1924. There are certain objections of a very fundamental character to the existing system, but in any case the fact that it expires in 1924 enables the Government to reconsider the whole position. Curiously enough, so unsatisfactory has been the service that, notwithstanding a subsidy of £26,000 per annum, there is at the present time a deficit on the working. The Committee will see from that that it is not only unsatisfactory in itself, but it requires reorganisation, and the object of this Bill is to make the necessary change and to provide a new scheme. We believe that, viewed from the most unfavourable standpoint, from a financial point of view, although the present subsidy is £26,000, the maximum deficit under this new scheme would be £20,000 per annum.

I understand that my hon. Friends who are opposed to this Resolution do not object to the Colonies getting the maximum of efficiency in their service. I understand that they recognise to the full the object of this proposal, but their objection is that it is not exclusively a wireless system, and therefore I will anticipate their objection and reply to that point. That side of the question was not only considered by the late Government but by the present Government as well, and the short objection is that so far as the fighting Departments are concerned there are grave doubts, and, indeed, fundamental objections to a wireless system because of the question of secrecy in time of war. Whatever might be said of the relative merits that must be obvious to everyone, there is the further objection that by wireless you are deprived in a matter of this kind of communication by code, and both those objections are put up by responsible authorities in the fighting forces, and as a layman myself they strike me as being fair and reasonable objections.

There is one other explanation, and it is that we have already incurred expenditure. In view of the time that it would take to manufacture and lay a cable of this kind, and arrange for wireless stations, the contracts for the material were entered into last autumn in order that a system might be ready by September, 1924. Owing to the delays, as I have already explained, if that had not been done there would have been an absolute breakdown, and it would have caused real difficulties to these Colonies as well as great inconvenience. Therefore the late Government undertook to prevent that delay by entering into the necessary contracts, and it is only fair to compliment them by saying that the contracts have been made at the price of £304,000 as against an original estimate of £347,000. I think that is a compliment, and it fully justifies the unusual step which the Government took in regard to these contracts.

I am glad that we are able to get this Resolution taken in the House now although it is a bit late. This matter is getting a little over ripe, and I dealt with it very fully in introducing the Colonial Estimates last summer. The matter was also very fully gone into at the Imperial Economic Conference with the representatives for Canada, who are participators in the subsidy under the new scheme, and whose growing interest in West Indian affairs is one of the features in the developments of recent years. This proposal ought to have been introduced in the Autumn Session because the subsidy for the old company and all the arrangement with them come to an end this September. I should like to ask the Colonial Secretary if he could inform the Committee when the new cable will be actually laid and ready for working, if not throughout the whole length down to Georgetown and British Guiana, at any rate from Turks Island to Barbados. I would like to know if it will be completed by the coming autumn and whether the actual laying is now being undertaken. May I emphasise what the right hon. Gentleman said about the necessity for a cable as against wireless as the main source of communication?

One of the reasons why previous Governments came to the conclusion that it is undesirable to have a further contract with the old company, in fact, one of the overriding considerations was that the old cable passed through foreign territory, and in order to communicate from London, not only in the case of the fighting Departments, but even from the Colonial Office, to any of our Governors out there, those communications had to be telegraphed first to Jamaica and then they had to telegraph it by the Panama Company's route to Porto Rico, and afterwards it had to be transmitted through the English and the French islands. Although that was not the only consideration, it was one of the major considerations in arriving at the conclusion that it was much better to construct an all-red cable, only touching British islands, so that in war and peace time there would be absolutely certainty of code and secret communications.

I would emphasise the fact that, when you are considering wireless as an alternative to cable communication, it is not only the Admiralty in war-time to whom it is absolutely vital that communication should be submarine, and not wireless. Everyone knows how easy it is to tap wireless, and we also know, from our experience in the late War, how easy it is to decipher any cipher message sent by wireless. I myself had personal experience of that in the East. It is equally important for the everyday administration of the Colonies. The right hon. Gentleman, when he wants to communicate, say, with the Governor of Barbadoes about something which the Governor is or is not to put before the Legislative Assembly, does not want to communicate in clear by wireless. That is quite obvious. The argument for a cable is overwhelming. There is a further difficulty, and that is that wireless undoubtedly—certainly it was so when I was in the West Indies two years ago—appears to be a very uncertain business among those volcanic islands and in that tropical climate. I remember the great difficulty we had when we were comparatively close to Jamaica—where there is a quite considerable wireless station—in getting into communication; and on H.M.S. "Valerian," that took us round, it was astonishing how the distance varied over which communication was possible on different days. I remember one day on which we were able to transmit a message—and it was not a very big ship—the whole way from Barbadoes to Bermuda, a distance of something like 1,300 miles, while on other days it was very difficult to transmit 300 miles. Wireless therefore is very uncertain.

I should like to hear, before this Debate closes, and I am sure the Committee ought to know, what is the final decision of the present Government in regard to the complementary scheme. There is the scheme for the main cable which connects with the Jamaica-Halifax cable at Turks Island. From Turks Island it goes outside the Eastern Antilles to Barbadoes, and there is to be a cable from Barbadoes to Trinidad and from Barbadoes to British Guiana. That is the main cable system. It is not all the communication that is to be provided by this money and under this Bill. There is to be further cable communication by sections of the old cable—at least, I hope so—and also wireless communication; and I think the Committee would like to know where the principal wireless station is going to be for distributing communication to the West Indies. I take it that it will be in Barbadoes, and that messages arriving in Barbadoes, either by wireless or by cable, will be transmitted to St. Vincent, St. Lucia, Grenada, Dominica, St. Kitts, Antigua, and so on, according to whether cable or wireless communication with those other islands has been established.

May I make one suggestion? If you are going to have a central transmitting station in Barbadoes for wireless distribution, I would suggest that you should have broadcasting of news, particularly to those islands. They live very much to themselves. They are very much cut off, and have but infrequent shipping communication, and their main contact with the outside world is through Reuter's telegrams. They are lucky enough to get Reuter's telegrams when they have a cable and when the cable is working; but some have not even a cable of any kind, nor have they any wireless, and so they are cut off. In a place like Trinidad, too, where there is a large number of cocoa farmers and people of that sort spread about the island, and, again, still more in British Guiana, if you are going to develop the vast hinterland of that country a news service by wireless would be of enormous benefit, and would ensure a considerable number of subscribers, who would get the receiving sets and work in connection with the scheme. With regard to the wireless station, could the right hon. Gentleman say this evening where wireless stations exist at present, and where it is proposed to erect new ones? To the best of my recollection—the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—all the existing stations are Admiralty stations. I think that those at St. Lucia, British Guiana and Jamaica are Admiralty stations. Is it proposed to retain them as Admiralty stations, or at any rate as Government stations, or is it proposed to hand over the wireless service between the various West Indian Islands to either the Marconi Company or some other company, or is it proposed that they should be nationalised? If they are to be handed over to a company, it seems to me that a good many questions could be asked as to the management and running of this cable.

During the Imperial Economic Conference I put forward to the Canadian Government, and also to the West Indian Government, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, a proposal that this new cable should be managed by the Pacific Cable Board, which has, of course, already a well-established reputation on the other side in the Pacific. We discovered that there would be no difficulty in their being equally responsible for the management of this new cable. We had to put it to the various Governments represented on that Board. Australia was concerned, and also Canada and New Zealand, as well as the British Government, in the management of the cables administered by the Pacific Cable Board. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it has been decided that this new cable shall be run by the Pacific Cable Board, and, if so, whether any addition has been, or will be, made to the personnel of that board, in order more specifically to represent British West Indian interests. The West Indies for a long time past have complained, and particularly the Eastern Antilles—Jamaica, I think, is very well satisfied—the Eastern Antilles and British Guiana have long been dissatisfied with the cost of the telegraph service and its delays, and with their general experience of it in the past. There is no doubt that we do owe to these, which are some of our oldest, most historic and most interesting Colonies, something in this respect, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, in replying at the conclusion of this Debate, will be able to answer the one or two questions which I have put, and others which are going to be put. I am quite sure, even though there may not be a great many Members in this House who have visited that part of the world, as I have, and have associated closely with it, at any rate anything that is said on this subject will reach out there. They are most anxious to know what is to be the future with regard to their means of communication, and will take the liveliest interest in hearing what the British Parliament decides in this respect.

I cannot pretend to the intimate geographical knowledge of the Colonies concerned which the late Undersecretary had the opportunity of gaining at first-hand, but I can approach this proposition from a purely business point of view, and I think that, from that point of view, some criticism may fairly be levelled against it. I confess that I am not impressed by the arguments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he says that this is desired particularly by what he described as the fighting services. I should have thought that we had now passed from that stage, and that a purely commercial undertaking, meant to develop one of our Colonies and to develop trade between our own country and our Colonies, should not be subordinated—indeed, it ought never to be subordinated—to the exigencies of possible war in the future. As a matter of fact, I cannot conceive, in any future war, what our land forces would want in that part of the world, even if they could be taken there, and I am perfectly certain that, if our Fleet had ever to go there, it would arrive in such a condition that it might adequately and properly be maintained on the islands as wreckage.

The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has asked a number of questions, and has also made one or two statements about which I should have liked to ask him a question had he been still in office. I think he conveyed to the Committee the impression that, as a result of this grant of £400,000 for this purpose, we should have an All-Red cable. That is news to me, because anyone who is acquainted at the present moment with the cable communication to the West Indies knows perfectly well that the bulk, if not all, of the existing cable companies are in the hands of, and controlled by, the United States of America. If you lay down the cable proposed in this Resolution, there is a point of junction, after all the spurs have been laid down, where cable communication from the West Indies would come on to a foreign-controlled cable. I should have thought it was part of the mental fit-up of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford to secure this All-Red British cable, and it is because I am in favour of something of that kind that I am making this speech.

My hon. Friend asked a number of other questions about wireless in the West Indies. So far as I am able to ascertain the position—and I did him the honour of reading his speech at the Imperial Conference, in order that I might get as much information as I possibly could—I understand that this proposal means the linking up of certain now unlinked territories by cable, and the planting, in each of the seven islands of the West Indies, of a wireless station which will secure intercommunication between those islands. I am not in the secrets of the Cabinet, but, from the Cabinet communiqués to the Press, the Government are at this precise moment discussing an extraordinarily interesting proposal, and one in which I think every man, whatever his politics may be, will take a profound interest—the linking up of the Empire by wireless stations. We are inclined nowadays to take everything for granted, and we forget that that which is a commonplace to-day was a miracle yesterday. To conceive the whole Empire linked up by a series of wireless stations so that our Colonies can be in direct communication with the Mother Country and with one another is one of those ideas which we all like to think of with pride. If that is so, that is going to cost a great deal of money. I do not think it need cost anything like the sums contemplated by many people, because the development of wireless is so rapid that the cheapening process is bound to come almost as quickly as some of the developments in wireless, and therefore I should like to regard the West Indian problem from an entirely different point of view from that of the granting of £400,000 to what I may describe as a hybrid scheme of cable and wireless.

In Canada you have an efficient wireless station. I believe it is not run by the Canadian Government, though it is controlled by them. I believe the Canadian station is run by Marconi. At any rate, we can speak to Canada from, I think, Rugby. I presume the wireless stations they are going to set up on the seven islands of the West Indies could receive messages from Canada, but I am certain they could not send them. The stations they are going to work are not sufficiently potential to send messages. The hon. Member for Stafford was 1,300 miles away from the source of the wireless message and he got it with some difficulty, perhaps due to the fact that they have that difficulty of sending out messages which they are much more capable of receiving. I would far rather spend that £400,000 in erecting an efficient wireless station in the West Indies which could communicate with Canada, and you would thereby be creating another link in this Imperial wireless chain. You have two in this country at the moment, you have one in Canada, one in Australia, and one in South Africa. One in India will probably be in existence by the end of this year, by which time, if the Government have not made another arrangement, we shall have a third station in this country which will be able directly to communicate with India. When you have that prospect within the immediate future, it seems a wretched waste of money to go to the rescue of a company which, on the hon. Gentleman's showing, has done very well, has been subsidised all the time, and which I do not think it is unfair to say once the subsidy was removed would immediately go into liquidation. That is the state of the company which controls this cable that is going to be included. That is the whole of my case put quite simply. What is the use of wasting £400,000 on a scheme which is going to be superseded, on a scheme which may become part of a much greater and finer scheme, a much more efficient scheme, particularly if the only arguments you can adduce are that the fighting Services prefer the old stale system to the up-to-date system? I think seriously the House, which never discusses these questions of finance in anything like large numbers, ought to think twice before it approves of a grant of nearly half a million of money for this purpose.

The hon. Member who has just sat down strikes me as being so peaceful that as soon as anyone mentions the fighting Services his blood is up. If his only objection is that it is desired to be as it is proposed to be because the fighting Services consider that this is the proper and the safe way, and the way which will serve the interests of the fighting Services, the protection of the country and the Empire, it is not a very sound objection. After all we may all desire those halcyon days when there shall never be any fighting Services all the world over, but until everyone disarms, and there are no fighting Services anywhere, it is obvious that we must have fighting Services. The hon. Member would be the first to admit that it would be absurd to send messages by wireless from headquarters in London to an Admiral or to a Colonial Government. Besides, there are certain civil messages which I apprehend the Colonial Secretary occasionally has to send to a Colonial Governor that he does not want to be broadcast into every private receiving station in the Colony. I do not know exactly what kind of language the right hon. Gentleman has to use occasionally to Colonial Governors, but I have read in the memoirs of Colonial Governors and in their secretaries' narratives, many observations which have been sent by cable, and sometimes in. code, which certainly would have caused something like a scandal if they had been broadcast into the homes of those Colonial Governors' temporary subjects.

I want to ask one or two questions. The first is purely financial. I should like to know who is going to lay this new cable. Then I should like to congratulate whoever is responsible for the saving which has been ma-de on the original Estimate. Then I should like to know whether it is not a fact that, contrary to what has been stated by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), under the new system the inter-island cable will no longer be under American control, but will be under all-British control.

I did not say that. My point was that at a certain juncture it becomes American-controlled.

That disquietens me. Unless I am misinformed, the scheme which is now in existence will come to an end in September next.

The present scheme passes twice through foreign territory. That is avoided under the new scheme.

I am much obliged for that statement. I thought it important to the public that that should be made clear. That was my impression. The next thing I should like to know is this: There is going to be a certain amount of wireless. I should like to know if this is to be a national or a Government scheme, or if the Marconi Company is in it. If the Marconi Company is in it I think the House and the public would be very much interested to know what are the terms. It is commonly said in the City and in other places that the Marconi Company generally contrives to make a very good bargain on these occasions, and I am certain right hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to protect the public interest in this matter. But I think it would be better for us all to know, in this House and in the country, exactly what are the terms which have been made with the Marconi Company. If no terms have actually been settled, we should like to know whether negotiations are proceeding or not, and if they are, up to what point they have progressed.

I also should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions without, in any way, any intention of embarrassing him. For years past this question of communication with the West Indies has been one of the most burning possible, and the islands have been seriously handicapped with regard to the communications as they have existed up to the present. One point I want to be made clear is this suggestion of foreign control of which we have heard a good deal, for up till now the foreign control has been paramount with regard to West Indian cables. The, Resolution asks for £400,000. I understand the cables are to cost £240,000 and the wireless £62,000, making a total of roughly £304,000. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say what the additional £90,000 is to be used for. I should like also to ask whether he is quite convinced that the scheme provides adequate inter-island communication. I understand the concern which is to put up the wireless outfit is known as the Radio Communication Company. I do not know the concern, and it may be a very excellent one, but I should like the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that that is a fact, and I should like him to inform us what experience it has had in this work. As to foreign control, I think the House would like to be absolutely clear on that point. I understand the cable is to be under the direct West India Cable Company. Is the company not only British in name, but British in practice? It is, I believe, registered in London, but there are a great many companies which have a British registration which are not of necessity British-controlled, and I think the House ought to be assured on that point, for practically every cable in this part of the world is under French or American, and for the most part under American control, and if it is not under British control, but only under British registration, we may be perfectly certain that its policy and its benefits will go, and quite properly go, to the United States.

8.0 P.M.

Lastly, a good deal has happened in the wireless world recently, and the Cabinet have before them a great wireless scheme. I am a whole-hearted believer in the future of wireless. Every day improvements are being made, the nature of which it is impossible at the moment to foresee. I should like to know whether this scheme will work in with the larger scheme which the Cabinet is considering at present. I believe the Post Office has always preferred cables to wireless, but I cannot help thinking that, for this sum of £400,000, a modern high-power station could be erected which would overcome atmospheric conditions as smaller stations would not, and would get into direct touch with the Empire. I do not wish to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman with these questions, but the best type of inter-communications throughout the Empire are so enormously important at the present time, and have been so long deferred, that I should like, and I believe others would like also, to be fully satisfied on all these points.

No one can do other than appreciate the general tone of the Debate, because the object has not been so much to criticise as to obtain information. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), under the opportunity of criticising this scheme, apparently wanted to drag from me something about the Government's general policy.

I must be careful that, in the general discussion of wireless, there may be questions as to whether this will dovetail into the wider and larger scheme, and my hon. Friend will not think me so innocent as to allow myself to be dragged into a general statement of anything of that kind. I want to say quite frankly that it is quite impossible for me to say anything on that matter at this moment. I want to draw attention to this, however, that he is under a misapprehension in the general statement he made that this is a grant of £400,000. It is not a grant at all. It is a loan for 30 years which the Treasury, who in these matters are always difficult to convert, consider quite a sound financial transaction. In regard to the second point, namely, that this Committee ought to think twice before sanctioning this money, he certainly forgot, or probably misunderstood, what I had said earlier, that the main portion of this money has already been expended—that is to say, contracts have been entered into, quite legitimately, for the purposes I have explained, and that in September this year, unless the money had been spent, there would be no communications of any sort or kind. I am sure the Committee will neither condemn the present nor the late Government for taking steps to prevent that. I would put it to the Committee and to my. hon. Friend that the fact remains that to reject it is to waste the money already expended, and I am quite sure that a Scotsman would never agree to a policy of that kind. With regard to the questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Storry-Deans) as to whether this is a Marconi Company, the Marconi Company have nothing to do with it, but it must not be taken as a reflection upon the Marconi Company when I say that. That was not my intention, neither was it his object in putting it to me. The question was also asked by my hon. Friend (Sir Harry Brittain), what was the additional £90,000 for? The answer is that it is to provide extra working plant. As to the suggestion that it is a foreign company, I am sure he will like to know that it is a British company.

It is quite true that the money which is being levied for the purpose is being devoted to cables which, when laid, will be controlled by British interests, but when they join at Turks Island they then pass through cables directed by people who are American in their interests. The main interest, I maintain, is American.

It is the reverse. The present cable goes through foreign soil, but the new cable avoids that. One of the advantages of the new scheme is that it avoids the possibility of passing over foreign soil.

It is not a question of the cable itself passing literally over foreign soil; it is who controls the cable? Is it not the fact that the chief control is American?

The control under the scheme and under the Bill that will be subsequently introduced to the House is the Pacific Cable Board. That Board is not an English Board, but it is an Empire Board. It is a Board composed exclusively of representatives of the Dominions and ourselves. The reason I said nothing about this Board earlier was because negotiations are taking place at this moment as to the composition and the functions of the Board, but these negotiations have nothing whatever to do with any outside authority. The Board, when complete, will be composed exclusively of representatives of the Dominions and ourselves. That will be the controlling authority from beginning to end, and no one else. The composition of the Board will be settled later on. The Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) wished to know when the cables will be operative. The Committee will be glad to know that the whole of the cable will be working in June this year. He also asked me where the wireless station will be. It will be in the Bahamas, which is the centre. As to the question of West Indian representatives on the Board, if I can succeed in settling the other negotiations as to the composition of this new board, I will be lucky indeed, but if you add to my difficulties by attempting to put someone else on, I do not know what will happen. I am not intimidated by the question of wireless and war. You could not communicate by code. There is the further difficulty that for the islands themselves a cable would be essential in war-time for their business purposes. If you had exclusively wireless, in wartime they would be cut off for business purposes. I therefore say to the Committee that I have endeavoured to answer the general questions to the best of my ability and I now ask the Committee to come to a conclusion.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what has been the experience of this Radio Company in regard to putting up wireless?

It is a good reputable firm. We would not consider letting this contract to other than a competent authority. The firm has had previous experience of this work.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill

Read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Wednesday—[ Mr. F. Hall ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Tramways and Omnibus Strike

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. F. Hall. ]

I should be glad if the Deputy-Leader of the House could tell us whether there is any substance in the rumours that are going about as to the strike? Can he inform us what has been the result of the ballot, and whether we may expect that the trams and omnibuses will be running to-morrow?

On behalf of those who sit behind me, I should like to enter a formal protest against the arrangement of business which has brought us to a termination at eight fifteen this evening, and which has put down the very important subject of the Second Reading of the Lausanne Treaty Bill for to-morrow. Under the. arrangement as it now stands, we shall have only four hours and a quarter to-morrow to discuss the Lausanne Treaty Bill, owing to a private Member's Motion which comes on at quarter past eight. I do feel, having regard to the representations which I felt it my duty to make to the Government on Friday last, that it would have been more satisfactory to shift the business for today over to to-morrow, and to have taken the Lausanne Treaty Bill to-day. That would have been more satisfactory to the House as a whole. We should have had a full day for the discussion of that very important matter, and if to-day's business had been put down for to-morrow we should have completed the business in time for the private Member's Motion. It is a great pity that the Government did not see their way to take the action which I suggested.

With regard to the question raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), the information I have is that the completion of the ballot on the strike has shown a substantial majority for the acceptance of the terms. Consequently, we expect that work will be resumed to-morrow. I think that information will be received with a good deal of relief and satisfaction by the House.

With respect to the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Edinburgh (Mr. Phillips), my recollection is that the Order put down as the first Order to-day was put down as a necessity, for financial reasons, and on that account it was impossible to have a discussion on the Lausanne Treaty Bill. My hon. Friend will recollect that we desired to have a discussion on that Treaty on Friday last, but objection was raised to that procedure. That would have suited us just as well as to-morrow, but for other reasons, which I have mentioned, it was found impossible to fix the discussion for Friday. The Government finds itself increasingly compelled to make these arrangements with the other parties in the House, as any other party would find itself obliged to go if placed in a position similar to that which we occupy. I can only say on behalf of the Government that we are anxious to utilise the time of the House as far as we possibly can, when it is placed at our disposal; but I submit that no one, when we began this day's business, could foresee that our Agenda would be exhausted at this hour. I hope we shall continue to receive the good will of the House in trying to make these arrangements regarding the daily Agenda. I can assure the House that no accommodation will be rejected so far as we are concerned, which will enable us to put down the proper business to be transacted.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes after Eight o'Clock.