House of Commons
Tuesday, April 1, 1924
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PRIVATE BILLS (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Manchester Ship Canal Bill.
Bill committed.
PRIVATE BILLS [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Haslingden Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time.
PRIVATE BILLS (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Southern Railway Bill.
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Watford Extension) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a Second time To-morrow.
Chatham and District Light Railways Company Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Statistical Abstract
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to expedite the publication of the Statistical Abstract so that it shall appear not later than June?
The Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom is a collection of summaries of statistics compiled by various Government Departments, and, consequently, it is not possible to issue the Abstract until those Departments have completed their statistics for the preceding year. In normal circumstances before the War, the Abstract was published in August, or, at latest, September, and it is hoped that in future years it may become practicable to re-establish that practice.
Clover Seed (Export)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that a very large crop of clover seed was grown in the Eastern Counties last season; how many tons of it were exported since harvest to the United States of America; whether he is aware that a duty was there levied upon it; and can he say how much the duty was per cwt. and when the duty was imposed?
The answer is somewhat long, and my hon. Friend will perhaps permit me to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
I am informed that there was a plentiful crop of red clover seed in the Eastern Counties and elsewhere in this country during last season. The exports of clover seed registered in the six months, September, 1923, to February, 1924, as consigned to the United States of America, amounted to 33,848 cwts. I am unable to state the quantity of each description of clover seed included in this total, or to say how much of it was produced in the Eastern Counties. The United States of America import duties on clover seeds per cwt. are as follow:
Alsiki clover and red clover, $4.48; white clover, $3.36, crimson clover, $1.12; clover not specially provided for, $2.24.
These duties were imposed by the United States Tariff Act, 1922, which came into operation on 22nd September of that year.
Chilled Meat (Formaldehyde as Preservative)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what quantity of chilled meat, acted upon by formaldehyde as a preservative, is being imported into this country by the s.s. "Kent," or any other ship; if the medical officer of health at the port where this experimental consignment arrives is satisfied that the meat thus preserved with formaldehyde is fit for human consumption; is the meat on this consignment to be placed on the market; and what will be the functions in this matter of the Departmental Committee which is now sitting?
I am informed that the quantity of chilled meat being imported on the s.s. "Kent" is 463 quarters, and I am not aware that any arrangements have been made for further consignments of meat treated by formaldehyde. If the port medical officer of health is satisfied after examination of the consignment that the meat is fit for human consumption, it will no doubt be placed on the market in the usual course. I understand that the Departmental Committee on Preservatives in Food propose to arrange for the inspection of the meat and investigation of the process for the general purposes of their inquiry.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that formaldehyde is thought by the medical profession to be a very dangerous preservative? Will the right hon. Gentleman state definitely is the consignment going to be placed on the market and the public experimented upon?
The hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that that is a question on which I should require to be guided by my competent advisers.
General Average
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a French Committee are at present engaged in drafting a set of rules applicable to general average; and that there is a British Committee at present independently sitting to draft rules for a similar purpose; and whether, in view of the desirability that there should be the same general average rules applicable to, and applied by, all countries, he will take steps to obtain an international agreement on the matter?
I understand that the question of general average is at present being considered by the interests concerned in this country and on the Continent, but I have no official information, and there is no question of any action being taken by the Government in the matter.
Is it desirable in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman to have general agreement about this? If it is will he take steps to get the views of other countries with regard to it?
I believe that there is no question at present of the Government being invited to take any steps. Of course the Board of Trade will be very glad to give any assistance that can be given. Hitherto agreements have been made without Government intervention.
Chinese Trade-Mark Law
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any information as to the protection that will be afforded to the trade marks of British firms under the new Chinese trade-mark law and, in particular, as to how far the owners of marks actually now in use will be protected against registration of such marks by others?
I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the law in question. Owners of trade marks registering their marks under the law will be entitled to the exclusive use of such marks in accordance with the provisions of the law. Rights of owners of trade marks now in use are safeguarded by Articles 3, 4 and 28 of the law.
Trade With United States
asked the President of the Board of Traded whether he can give the figures of the total exports from Great Britain to the United States for the years 1922 and 1923, respectively, and the total imports into this country from the United States for the same years; and if he can explain the increased balance of trade in favour of this country?
The answer is somewhat long, and my hon Friend will perhaps agree to it being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The total declared value of exports from the United Kingdom consigned to the United States of America (including the value of re-exports and of bullion and coin) was £103,898,000 in the year 1922 and £118,572,000 in 1923. During the same years the values of imports into the United Kingdom, consigned from the United States (including bullion and coin) were £225,882,000 and £216,836,000, respectively. These figures show that the excess of imports over exports decreased from £121,984,000 in 1922 to £98,264,000 in 1923. Whether this decrease is to be attributed to a single dominant cause it is impossible to say, and I should not care to venture upon a speculative explanation.
Hares (Export)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give any information as to the export from this country of live hares?
I am unable to state, for any period, the number or value of live hares exported from the United Kingdom, but I believe that such exports are inconsiderable.
Dyes (Import Licences)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Messrs. John Young (of Radcliffe), Limited, Red Bank Dye Works, applied for a licence on 5th March, 1924, for 120 lbs. of Geigys safranine superfine double B; that they were referred to British Dyestuffs Corporation, Limited, Messrs. L. B. Holiday and Company, Limited, and the North British Chemical Company for identical products; that they obtained L. B. Holiday and Company's safranine and dyed up bulk shade, and it appeared to be all right; that the goods were sent to the customer woven and finished; that the customer complained that they did not stain off correct shade; that the firm reported to the Dyestuffs Licensing Advisory Committee, who informed them they must try the British Dyestuffs Corporation and the North British Chemical Company and fall with their products before a licence could be obtained; that, although an interview was sought with the director, it could only be obtained on 26th March, 1924; and whether, in view of such a waste of time when orders are so badly needed, he will consider doing away with the licensing system and replacing with a definite import duty, so that customers can purchase their requirements at once under known conditions?
The application to which the hon. Member refers was made on the 5th March, and the applicants were immediately referred to three British makers. On the 18th March they stated that they had tried the product of one British maker and found it unsuitable for a particular purpose, though quite satisfactory for ordinary dyeing purposes. In reply to an inquiry on 20th March, as to trying the products of other makers, the applicants sought an interview on the 26th March, and on further information being given, a licence was immediately issued. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
German Leather and Paper
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the import price of German leather and German paper on 1st February, 1924, and 1st March, 1924?
The answer is rather long, and the hon. Member will perhaps allow me to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The answer calls for only two figures, as far as I can make out.
Following is the answer:
I am unable to state the prices of German leather or paper on the 1st February or 1st March of this year. The most important import of leather consigned from Germany in January and February, however, consisted of box and willow calf leather, of which the average declared value was £19 1s. 5d. per cwt. in January, and £27 5s. 7d. in February. Among the various descriptions of paper consigned from Germany, the imports of glazed and machine-glazed packing and wrapping paper were the most considerable, and the average declared value of paper of this class was £1 1s. 2d. in January, and £1 2s 5d. in February.
Motor Tyre Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many British motor-tyre factories are closed down; how many are working not more than half their capacity; how many workers normally employed in this industry are out of work; what is the percentage of imported tyres to the total used in this country; and whether he is now prepared to advise that in the McKenna Duties a motor-car tyre should now be considered an accessory of a motor car?
I regret that no official information is available which will enable me to answer the first four parts of the question, but I understand that statements have been received from certain of the interests concerned as to the depressed state of the industry. As regards the last part of the question, I am unable to anticipate my Budget statement.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries and find out what are the facts in this case?
My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary received a deputation upon this subject to-day. I stated in my reply that we had not sufficient information, and I am afraid that it would be very difficult to get it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question also affects the cotton industry and other industries, and will he take that fact into consideration?
I shall take all the relevant facts into consideration.
Mixed Arbitral Tribunal (Enemy Debts)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will appoint a Committee of three Members of the House to examine the staffing and methods of the British Clearing House for Enemy Debts?
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the total amount already paid by British creditors by way of commission to the British Clearing Office for Enemy Debts; and whether it is proposed to run this Department on more economical lines?
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is prepared to reduce the staff of 800 persons occupying ranges of offices in Stamford Street, S.E., and the adjoining streets for the purpose of winding up the balance of the business now in the hands of the British Clearing Office for Enemy Debts, as so large a number is no longer necessary?
The staffing and organisation of the Clearing Office are constantly under review by the Establishment Departments of the Treasury and the Board of Trade, and I doubt whether in the circumstances any further investigation is required. As to the staff, the numbers are being continually reduced as the condition of the work permits; but there is still a large volume of claims to be dealt with, and it would not be economical to reduce the staff below the number needed to deal expeditiously with the outstanding work. Regarding commission, the amount paid by British creditors to the Clearing Office, up-to- date, is £1,371,442; this commission is charged, under the Treaty of Peace, not only to defray the expenses of the Office, but also to indemnify the Government against loss, arising from any failure to collect debts owing by British nationals, whose solvency is guaranteed under the Treaty.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state approximately what is the amount due and expected to become due and still remaining unpaid to British nationals in respect of compensation under Articles 296 and 297 of the Treaty of Versailles; whether the property of German nationals which, by the Treaty of Versailles and the Orders in Council made thereunder, stands charged with the payment of this compensation is sufficient to meet these payments; and, if not, what is the amount of the anticipated deficiency?
Article 296 of the Treaty of Versailles deals exclusively with pre-War debts and does not relate to compensation. The amount of compensation due to British nationals under Article 297 depends upon awards made by the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal, and I am unable to give any reliable estimate of the ultimate result of the clearing procedure as it depends upon circumstances outside the control of the Clearing Office.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of times that the first division of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal sat during January and during February last, and the number of cases settled, and their total amount, in each of those months?
The answer contains a table of figures, and perhaps I may be allowed to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is the Government satisfied that this tribunal is doing all the work that can reasonably be expected of it?
The tribunal is not under the control of the British Government nor of any Department of it, but I understand that the question is receiving attention.
Although the tribunal is not under the control of the British Government, is not the President of the Board of Trade the representative of the British taxpayer and the British Treasury in the matter, and should he not look after their interests?
Following is the answer:
During the months of January and February the first division of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal sat on 11 days. During those two months the first division disposed of 21 cases by judgments after trial and gave five costs awards. In addition 94 cases pending, before the tribunal were settled by consent judgment, or otherwise disposed of, upon terms agreed between the parties. The amount of the cases decided by judgment after trial is as follows:—
January. — No. Amount. £ s. d. Awards … … 5 3,676 12 11 Cases dismissed … … 1 13,873 18 9 February. Awards … … 5 17,664 17 6 Cases dismissed … … 4 406,591 11 8
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the 716 cases settled before the Anglo-German mixed arbitral tribunal were consent judgments and how many were withdrawals?
Of the 716 cases referred to, 240 were disposed of by consent judgments; 385 were withdrawn, having been admitted through the Clearing Office and paid, and 91 were abandoned by the claimants.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state how many cases still remain to be decided?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that cases dating as far back as 1921 still remain unsettled, and is there any hope of expediting the proceedings?
I can say only that there is considerable improvement in the way of expedition since November last. I would not like to criticise anything before that date.
Is it not a fact that the German Government are making opposition on practically every single question, and will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that cases of a similar nature are dealt with?
I am afraid that the figures do not quite bear out the hon. Member's suggestion. A number of cases are being dealt with satisfactorily.
Why should not another court be set up?
It has been set up.
A third?
That is under consideration.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of fresh cases lodged with the Anglo-German mixed arbitral tribunal between 15th March, 1923, and 1st March, 1924, and the number disposed of during the same period?
Between the dates mentioned 669 new cases were lodged. During the same period 105 were disposed of by judgment after trial, and 501 by consent judgment or withdrawal.
Do not the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman mean that the actual number of cases dealt with has increased during the year?
That is true, but 669 new cases were brought forward. So long as new cases continue to be brought forward, it is difficult to make very much progress towards a settlement.
Arising out of that admission, does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that it becomes vital to see that a third tribunal is established?
Why did the right hon. Gentleman opposite not set it up?
Considerably greater progress is now being made than was made last year, and I can assure the House that the matter is receiving attention with the view of still greater progress being made.
Is not the greater progress due to the fact that we established a second tribunal?
Insurance (Lapsed Policies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing amongst numbers of insured people; and if he is prepared to call for a return from the insurance companies of the number of lapsed policies, together with their duration and the amounts paid in?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on the 25th March to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull.
Mercantile Marine
Dry Dock Accommodation
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the steamship "Majestic" has been granted a certificate of seaworthiness despite the fact that the annual overhaul of this vessel was not completed?
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the steamship "Majestic" has been granted a certificate of seaworthiness despite the fact that the annual overhaul of this passenger-carrying ship has been neglected and abandoned; and will he consider cancellation of the certificate pending examination?
It is expected that the whole of the survey, with the exception of the inspection of the vessel's hull in dry dock, will be completed before the vessel sails. As there is not a dry dock in the United Kingdom capable of accommodating this vessel, the dry docking must be done at Boston, U.S.A. A short term passenger certificate is being issued to enable the vessel to proceed to that port for survey in dry dock.
Is this another case in which work has been lost to this country owing to a trade dispute?
I would not say that. The dry dock is due, and ought to be presently in position in Southampton. I hope that it will be available for the summer traffic this year.
Has a certificate of seaworthiness been issued? If so, is it liable to be cancelled owing to the pressure of the trade unions?
Home Trade Vessels (Asiatics)
asked the President of the Board of Trade why he has no later figures of the Asiatics employed in British home-trade ships than the figures of June, 1921; if he is aware of the increase in the numbers of these Asiatics employed in our home trade; whether he can obtain figures from the shipping lines flying the British flag, showing the numbers of Asiatics employed, British subjects and others, respectively; and whether he can take any steps to check the increase in the numbers of Asiatics employed in home-trade vessels?
The agreements of British ships deposited with the Board of Trade give particulars of the men employed on those ships, but the classification and tabulation of these particulars involves so much labour that a census is only taken once every five years, and the last census day was 19th June, 1921. I am unable to confirm the statement that the number of Asiatics employed in the home trade has increased, and am not in a position to propose action on the matter.
Could not my right hon. Friend ask for a return of British ships in reference to this matter? Could not a table be easily made up? Are we not entitled to the information?
I am afraid that the number of British ships is a considerable number, and it is not so easy to deal with the matter. Inquiries are being made and the results so far as they have gone do not confirm the notion that there is any actual increase.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accompany me to Hull and explain to the seamen who are out of work there why he cannot do anything for them?
Freight Rates
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the different rates of freight charged by the various British lines, belonging to the conference, from Continental ports and from British ports to the same destinations, and that in certain cases the freight charge from the Continent by British ships is considerably less than that charged from British ports by the same British steamers; is he aware, as an example, that the freight quoted for Manilla rope from Antwerp to Callao was 17s. 6d. a ton in January last and 45s. a ton for the same goods from London to Callao, and that, although the rates from the Continent have now been increased to 32s. 6d., this is still considerably below the rate from British ports to South America charged to British shippers by the same British ships; and whether any steps can be taken to bring pressure to bear on the British companies in the combine with a view to preventing them from exercising discrimination against British ports?
This answer is somewhat long, and the hon. and gallant Member will, perhaps, permit me to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The attention of the Board of Trade has frequently been drawn to the differences between the freights charged from Continental ports and those from British ports to the same destination. The example given in the question is substantially correct. The reason given is that Continental lines are able for various causes to carry at a lower cost than their British competitors, and British lines have to carry at the Continental rates if they are to secure any of the business from Continental ports. The matter is watched carefully by the Department, but there is no power to regulate freights or to require Continental rates to be charged from British ports.
Questions
Port of London Authority (Charges)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, following the settlement of the recent dock dispute, the Port of London Authority have raised their charges for landing and discharging from 55 per cent. above the pre-War rate to 100 per cent.; and if he proposes to take any action to prevent the practice of passing on to the consumer not only the addition consequent upon a wage increase but a further margin ostensibly to provide increased profits?
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the Port of London Authority have increased their dock dues for grain by 100 per cent., and for working grain out of ships by 42½ per cent.; and whether the proposals to impose the increases were submitted to him during his recent interview with representatives of the Port of London Authority?
I am aware that the Port of London Authority have announced their intention of increasing certain of their charges on and after the 1st April. Representations have been made to me by the London Corn Trade Association, and I am in communication with the Port of London Authority on the subject.
Has the hon. Gentleman any powers to investigate an increase of charges of this description, and, if not, will he consider the advisability of representing to the President of the Board of Trade the desirability of obtaining such powers?
As I have stated, I am in communication with the Port of London Authority.
Does the hon. Gentleman carry in mind that this increase which has been put on by the Dock Authorities will more than cover the cost of the extra pay which they are giving the men?
That is one of the matters which I am trying to find out.
Are the staff of the Authority satisfied with their conditions?
Enemy Action Claims
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether claims made by British subjects resident in France and Belgium whose furniture and personal effects were lost or destroyed as a result of hostilities or of German occupation of territories in those countries during the late War fell within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action?
The answer is in the affirmative, in so far as the damage was caused directly by acts of the enemy.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the sum of £300,000 is sufficient to pay compensation to belated claimants at the same rate as has been paid to claimants receiving awards under the Reports of the Royal Commission; and, if not, will the Government provide such further sum as may be necessary in order to pay bona fide claimants at the same rate?
I would refer to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for the Central Division of Hull on 18th March.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the sum of £300,000 to be awarded to belated claimants for compensation has been fixed so as to give these claimants the same amount of compensation they would have received if their cases had been provided for in the Reports of the Royal Commission, or upon what other basis this sum has been fixed?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is intended that the £300,000 additional compensation money shall be divided among all persons who have suffered loss or damage and who have made belated claims; or, if not, will he state for the information of claimants what conditions he proposes to lay down in order to determine whether a belated claim should rank for compensation or not?
I will reply to these questions together, and would refer to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for West Lewisham and the hon. Member for North Newcastle-on-Tyne on 25th March.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in none of the answers which he has given has he yet stated with what conditions the claimants have to comply?
That has already been stated, in reply to questions in the House, and the conditions are exactly the same as those which were laid down by the Commission on previous occasions. It is merely the belated claims that are being dealt with, which were rendered under the conditions laid down by the Commission.
How is it possible that the same conditions are to apply as applied to the findings of the Royal Commission, when the belated claims have themselves been turned down by the Royal Commission?
The belated claims were set aside by the Royal Commission and have now been accepted for consideration.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that the amount of these claims was only £22,000? What is the difficulty, under these circumstances, in making the answer?
The number of the claims is between 21,000 and 22,000. There is no question of amount; it has not yet been ascertained.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that persons in many parts of the country are receiving small sums of money in final settlement of their claims submitted to the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action without any intimation being given to them of the figures at which their original claims were assessed and audited; and will he look into this matter?
I would refer to the answers which I gave to the hon. Member on 25th March, 1924.
May I request the right hon. Gentleman to make his answers more audible?
Cotton Mills (Building Cost)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what the cost of building and equipping a ring spinning cotton mill with 6-inch spindles and 1¾-inch gauge was in 1914; and what would be the cost at the present time?
I am not in a position to give precise figures, but I understand that the cost at the present time would be approximately twice the pre-War cost.
British Army
Barrack Accommodation, Middlesbrough
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the scheme which on 26th February had been approved for providing additional accommodation for the Yorkshire Hussars at Middlesbrough has now been abandoned; if not, when it is hoped to start upon it; and what additional accommodation is to be provided by it?
The scheme has not been abandoned, but perhaps my answer of 26th February was not sufficiently explicit. The present accommodation is shared by the Yorkshire Hussars and some other units, including No. 2 Company, 50th Northumbrian Division Signals; and the scheme to which I referred in my previous answer is for the provision of a separate headquarters for the signal company, so as to set free additional existing accommodation for the other units, including the Yorkshire Hussars. I understand that the building of these separate headquarters has already begun. I regret that in the present conditions I am not in a position to contemplate the erection of entirely new headquarters for the Yorkshire Hussars.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the absolutely inadequate nature of the existing accommodation; and is he prepared to let the present conditions continue for another year?
I cannot say anything except that we hope the new accommodation for the signal company will enable additional existing accommodation to be made available for the remainder.
Central Ordnance Depot, Chilwell
asked the Secretary of State for War if it has been definitely decided to close down the central ordnance depot at Chilwell, Notts; if so, what it is intended to do with this depot; and whether alternative employment is to be provided for the 800 men who will be thrown out of employment by such action?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The depot will be gradually reduced, but this will probably take some years. The workmen affected are mainly labourers to whom no continuity of employment was or could be promised, but their cases will be dealt with in the best manner possible as they arise.
Will men who are so displaced receive priority of treatment if any vacancies arise at other depots under the control of the War Office?
I should say, without tying myself down to any definite method of treatment, that the last part of my answer has been carefully thought over and the cases of these men will be dealt with in the best manner possible as they arise and as the circumstances present themselves.
When will the depot close?
I have already said the depots will be gradually reduced and it may take some years.
Temporary Commissions
asked the Secretary of State for War how many officers are still serving in the Army on temporary commissions; what are their ranks and how are they employed; and what steps are being taken to train Regular officers to take their place?
The number of non-Regular officers employed at present under the War Office is 346, mainly captains and subalterns. This figure includes not only "temporary officers" proper but certain Militia and Territorial officers. They are employed mainly on war aftermath and in Germany, Palestine and Iraq. The question of training Regular officers to take their places does not at present arise.
Scotland
Fishing Industry (Assistance)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the importance of launching his scheme for assistance to fishermen in the replacement of lost and damaged gear in time to enable the greatest possible number of boats and crews to participate in the summer fishing, he is yet in a position to make an announcement of its terms?
My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to say whether any such scheme will be adopted, but he will intimate the decision reached as soon as practicable.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is an extremely urgent problem, and will he report to his right hon. colleague the Secretary for Scotland the urgency of the case?
The Secretary for Scotland is aware that it is an urgent question and will be glad of any information from any hon. Member in any direction that will be helpful in solving it.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that eight or nine Scottish Members representing fishing constituencies, recently interviewed the Secretary for Scotland and pointed out the urgency of the case, as the fishing season starts in May or the beginning of June?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the retail price asked for fish in big towns like Glasgow is eightpence per pound out of which the fisherman only gets one-halfpenny per pound; and is there not sufficient to pay for gear and everything else, if the fishermen got it?
Land Transfer (Cost)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the cost of transfer of land in Scotland is, in some cases, more than the actual value of the property; and whether the Government proposes to introduce legislation to facilitate and cheapen the transfer of land in Scotland?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second, the improvement of the law of conveyancing in Scotland in the direction of simplification and reduction of cost has been under the consideration of a Committee whose recommendations are embodied in the Bill recently introduced by the hon. and learned Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. F. C. Thomson).
Will the Government give facilities for that Bill?
I cannot say.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his information must be wrong, because I have at least one case in which the selling price was £20 and the transfer fees £22.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the single transfer system, where one signature includes all?
Emigration
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that emigration from Scotland in the coming season is likely to be exceptionally heavy; and, in view of the fact that Scotland, particularly the Highlands and Islands, are losing many of their best men, what steps the Government propose to take to solve this problem?
It is obviously difficult to obtain particulars on this subject in advance, and my right hon. Friend is not aware that emigration will be greater in the ensuing season than in the past year. It is impracticable to deal with the wide and general topic of emigration within the limits of a reply to a question but, with regard to the Highlands and Islands, my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland is examining the question of the best utilisation of the natural resources.
Will the hon. Gentleman who is assistant to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland represent to the Secretary for Scotland the advisability of at once setting up a Commission of Inquiry into this scandal, which has continued for so many years and which threatens to leave us without any population in the Gaelic-speaking districts?
I think it would be better if my hon. Friend would put that question down for the Secretary for Scotland himself to answer.
On a point of Order. Are not the questions now being answered by the hon. Gentleman questions which were addressed to the Secretary for Scotland?
Irish Prisoners
asked the Secretary for Scotland how many Irish political prisoners convicted of offences committed in Ireland are at present detained in prisons in Scotland; what is the nature of the offences charged against such prisoners; what is the character of the punishment these persons are subject to; what is the length of sentence already served; for how long a period the prisoners are still to be detained; and will he consider asking the Irish Government responsible for these prisoners to either take them back to Ireland or sanction their release?
A number of prisoners serving sentences imposed by the Courts of Northern Ireland are at present detained in Scotland, but my right hon. Friend has no information as to the motives underlying their offences, nor are prisoners classified as "political" or otherwise according to the motive of their offence. Any question regarding the future disposal of these prisoners is a matter not for my right hon. Friend, but for the Government and Parliament of Northern Ireland.
School Population
asked the Secretary for Scotland the school population of Scotland in the year 1923–24, and the estimated school population for the year 1924–25?
The latest returns of education authorities show that the total number of children of school age in Scotland at 31st July, 1923, was 800,030, a decline of over 29,000 from the preceding year. A further decline in 1924–25 may be anticipated.
Teachers' Training (Draft Regulations)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if the new draft Regulations for the training of teachers have been circulated to education authorities, provincial committees, and teachers' organisations for their consideration; and if sufficient approval has been forthcoming to warrant the passing of these Regulations in their present form?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The time allowed for the lodging of observations and suggestions will not expire until 2nd April.
Can the hon. Gentleman state if, so far, any organisation or local education authority has approved of these draft Regulations?
I am sorry to say that I cannot.
Can the hon. Gentleman state how many authorities have urged objections to the Regulations?
I cannot.
Municipal Elections
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the disadvantages arising from elections being held in the month of November, he would favourably consider an amendment of the law so that municipal elections in Scotland would take place in June?
My right hon. Friend has no evidence of any general desire for the change suggested such as would justify consideration of legislation at the present time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider there would be advantages to the people in being able to attend meetings more easily and more cheaply?
Does not the hon. Gentleman's own experience in the city of Glasgow give him sufficient evidence on this matter?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that any such change would disfranchise a number of people who take holidays at that time?
River Pollution
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that in March, 1922, the Scottish Board of Health intimated to the county council of East Lothian and the town council of Haddington the intention to make a survey of Scottish rivers as regards pollution and sewage disposal; and what has been done in the matter?
I am aware that the Scottish Board of Health is collecting information regarding the pollution of rivers in Scotland. The returns obtained are being tabulated, and it is proposed that the Scottish Board of Health and the Fishery Board for Scotland should confer together, after the tabulation is completed, to consider the whole matter of river pollution in Scotland.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware of repeated complaints having been made to the Scottish Board of Health of fish poisoning by sewage in the River Tyne, and that, on the 21st instant, a large number of trout were found dead in the Tyne extending over a stretch of half a mile below the outfall of the town of Haddington drains; and will he cause immediate inquiry to be made regarding the matter?
Two complaints of fish poisoning in the River Tyne have been made to the Scottish Board of Health. The Board are causing inquiry to be made into the drainage arrangements of the burgh of Haddington, and I shall inform the hon. Member of the result of this inquiry.
Is the hon. Member aware that the Tyne is one of the cleanest rivers in Great Britain, and offers some of the finest salmon fishing in the world?
United Services Club, Coaltown
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that on 22nd March Inspector Robertson and a force of police raided the United Services Club, Coaltown, of Wemyss; can he state if the police had a warrant to carry out their raid; on what information did they take such action; and did they discover anything detrimental to the good management of the club as the result of the raid?
My right hon. Friend is making inquiry into this matter, and he will communicate with the hon. Member thereafter.
Highlands and Islands (Economic Conditions)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the exceptional economic conditions prevailing in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, he is now prepared to consider the appointment of a Commission to investigate and report as to the best methods of developing the resources of the Highlands and Islands?
My right hon. Friend is collecting information as to the possibilities of economic development from the Departments under his control. He will be largely guided by the result in his further consideration of the question of appointing a Commission.
Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of the urgency of this question? While the Highlands of Scotland are being depopulated of Scotsmen, who have been brought up there, Poles are coming into Lanarkshire and Stirlingshire who cannot speak the English language, let alone the Scottish language; and will he take steps to inform his chief that this matter brooks no delay, and that a Commission should be set up at once?
This is not the time for a speech.
Unemployment Relief Works (Foreign Materials)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the decision of the Government to refuse to allow local authorities to accept the lowest tender for materials required for public relief works, when of foreign origin, imposes an extra burden on their local rates; and will the Government in such cases make an equivalent grant from the Treasury to the local authority so that its ratepayers shall not be penalised by carrying out the Government's policy of Protection?
Where the Government are giving considerable financial assistance to schemes of this character in order to provide work for the unemployed in this country, it is not, I think, unreasonable to impose a condition to secure that this object is, in fact, attained, and I see no justification for an additional Exchequer subsidy on this ground.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the particular necessitous districts which have the heaviest number of unemployed are penalised by his system in order to relieve other districts?
If there be any loss for the reasons stated in the supplementary question, surely it is balanced by the gain of finding men work.
Is this the accepted Government method of breaking the rings and combines, which the Prime Minister announced as the first policy of the Government?
The answer is in the negative.
Law Officers
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that litigation is now pending involving contingent liabilities on the Government of upwards of £30,000,000; what is the nature of this litigation; whether it will prevent the Attorney-General from performing his Parliamentary duties; and what steps he proposes to take to secure that more than one of the Law Officers of the Crown shall be a Member of this House?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given yesterday by the Prime Minister in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer).
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer was no answer, and can he say if there is any precedent for there being only one of the available four Law Officers of the Crown present in this House?
I should be glad to welcome from any quarter of the House any helpful suggestions.
In regard to the last part of the question, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that there are no fewer than four Bills dealing with rent restriction, and does he not therefore think the Minister of Health will require some more legal assistance?
Cadets (Fees)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would be the annual cost of abolishing all fees for officer cadets and cadets at the training colleges for the Royal Navy, His Majesty's Army, and the Royal Air Force?
The annual cost would depend on certain assumptions as to the numbers of cadets and the categories of fees and other payments affected, but may be put at about a quarter of a million pounds.
Is my hon. Friend going to recommend to the Government that this money should be given to the people, so that poor boys may have an equal chance?
My hon. and gallant Friend asked me the cost, and I have given that, but he is now referring to the policy.
Pre-War Pensioners Bill
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether ex-Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners will be included within the scope of the Pre-War Pensioners Bill which the Government intend to introduce immediately after Easter?
I fear that I cannot undertake to announce the proposals of the Government in detail before the introduction of the Bill.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great hardship from which pensioners of the Royal Irish Constabulary are at present suffering?
The Government are extremely anxious to get this Bill forward, but it appears to be impossible to find time before Easter. I have no doubt the earliest possible opportunity will be taken for the introduction of the Bill.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not sympathetically consider the inclusion of the ex-Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners?
I can only repeat the answer I gave to the previous question, namely, that I cannot answer in detail before the introduction of the Bill.
German Reparation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total sum, in money or in kind, paid as reparations by Germany under the Treaty of Versailles up to the present time; and in what proportions the respective Allied countries affected have participated in such reparations payment?
With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate the answer, which contains many figures, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Will those figures show that this country has received the same proportion of reparations as France has done?
When the hon. and gallant Gentleman is in possession of the figures, he will be able, I think, to find an answer to that question.
Following is the reply:
1. The total sums received by the Reparation Commission under the Treaty of Versailles up to 31st December, 1923, amounted to £421 million, namely, £95 million cash, £198 million deliveries in kind and £128 million ceded property. Of the £421 million, £284½ million has been distributed and the balance mainly in respect of German ceded properties is undistributed or in suspense.
2. The following table gives the distribution among the various Allied Powers and the difference in the case of each Power between the gross amount received by it and the amount required to reimburse the charges which have priority over reparations, namely, reimbursement of coal advances to Germany and costs of Armies of Occupation and Commissions of Control. The figures represent millions of £.
— Gross Receipts. Prior Charges. Balance in respect of Reparation. Belgium … 86·6 14·3 72·3 France … 90·2 80·7 9·5 Great Britain … 65·9 53·3 12·6 Italy … 19·9 2·0 17·9 Japan … 3·4 — 3·4 Serbia … 13·1 — 13·1 Other Allies … 5·4 — 5·4 284·5 150·3 134·2
3. These figures have been taken from a communique issued by the Reparation Commission on 24th March, gold marks being converted to sterling at the rate of 20 gold marks to the £. The Reparation Commission statement concludes with the following passage:
"This table is highly condensed, does not pretend to give more than a general indication of the position of the respective Powers and omits minor complications which would necessarily be introduced into a formally exact statement. It should also be added that the figures given are not final but approximate."
4. The above figures refer only to payments by Germany for Reparation (and Armies of Occupation) and do not include payments for other Treaty charges such as Restitution, Clearing Offices for Pre-War Debts.
Perpetual Pensions (Commutation)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the then holders of perpetual pensions were at any time invited to commute their pensions, in accordance with the terms of the Treasury Minute of 19th July, 1888; if those terms were refused; and, if so, whether the fact of the refusal was reported to the House, as directed by the said Treasury Minute?
Yes, Sir. The terms then contemplated were 26·945 years' purchase. No offer to commute a pension on these terms has been definitely rejected by the holder, but in 1890 when the High Court of Justice refused to approve the commutation of Lord Rodney's pension on those terms the circumstances were reported to the House in accordance with the Treasury Minute.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the terms at that time were 27 years' purchase, and that it was the direct statement of the Treasury at that time that an explicit offer should be made, and, if refused, the terms of the refusal should be reported to this House?
The hon. Member, of course, understands that I am not responsible for what took place 40 years ago, and I can only give the information which we have in our possession as to what was done in regard to previous offers. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that, following on the Report of the Committee in 1888, eight of these perpetual pensions have been commuted. I have gone rather fully into this matter in order to satisfy my hon. Friend, and the only case that I can find where possibly the matter might have been reported to the House was in regard to the Nelson pension. Twice the Treasury have offered to commute this pension, but the negotiations have never assumed a very definite form, and I understand that the Treasury at that time did not consider, seeing that the negotiations had been in a sense informal, that it was necessary to report the matter to the House of Commons.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will inform the House as to the date when Lord Nelson was last invited to state the terms on which he was willing to commute the pension which has been paid since the year 1805?
Certain communications passed in 1904, but they never advanced beyond preliminary inquiries.
Is it the policy of His Majesty's Government to accord with the previous declaration of policy, made many years ago, that these pensions should be commuted and on terms representing a substantial saving to the Treasury?
That precisely represents the attitude of the present Government.
In the event of any of those holders or receivers of perpetual pensions not accepting the desire of the Government to commute their pensions, are the Government in favour of introducing legislation to stop those pensions altogether?
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform us what service this gentleman has rendered, is rendering, or is likely to render for this money?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
I will put a question down for this day week.
Budget (Date of Introduction)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what date he proposes to introduce the Budget?
I propose to open the Budget on the 29th April.
The first day after the Easter Recess?
indicated assent.
War Bond Policies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action, if any, the Treasury took to prevent the further issue of war bond policies by the Prudential Assurance Company; when such action was taken; the total number and value of war bond policies issued by the company; how many have lapsed; and the total loss incurred thereby to the policyholders?
The Treasury have not taken, and have no powers to take, any action to prevent the issue of policies of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member. I am not in possession of the information asked for in the latter part of the question, and I have no power to require the company concerned to furnish it. I would remind the hon. Member of the provisions of Section 30 of the Industrial Assurance Act, 1923, for the modification of war bond policies so far as relates to lapse and surrender.
Which Department of State is now responsible for the conduct of industrial insurance?
Was not a promise given in this House, on behalf of the Prudential Company, that any individual case where complaint was made would be sympathetically considered by the directors of that company, and has the hon. Gentleman any knowledge of what benefits or sums have been returned to these policyholders?
Obviously, I could not reply to the second supplementary question without notice, in order that I should make the necessary inquiries. As regards the first supplementary question, this matter is under the Registrar of Friendly Societies, and is, of course, a Treasury matter.
Coal Industry
Spirochaetosis, East Lothian Coalfield
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health, if he is able to make a statement regarding his further inquiries into the disease diagnosed as spirochaetosis or infective jaundice, which is prevalent in the East Lothian coalfield, and which has been responsible for a number of deaths and a considerable amount of sickness; and is he now prepared to include the disease under the schedule for compensation purposes?
Inquiries in East Lothian and elsewhere in Scotland have not resulted in the discovery of any further cases. The position is being kept under observation by the Board of Health. As regards the last part of the question, the inclusion of the disease in the schedule under the Workmen's Compensation Act is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who, I am informed, has the proposal under consideration.
Retail Prices
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that the price of coal in certain Midland areas has been advanced during the past three weeks from 1s. 9d. per cwt. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.; and whether, in view of the fact that no increase has as yet been made in miners' wages, nor has any reduction taken place in the output of coal, he is prepared to take action to check the increase in prices?
I cannot answer the first part of the hon. Member's question, unless he will be more precise as to the locality. As to miners' wages, he is no doubt aware that under the National Agreement the rates now being paid are based upon the trading results of November and December last. As to the point raised in the last part of the question, I am still awaiting the replies of the coal merchants to the questions that I have addressed to them.
asked the Secretary for Mines if he is in a position to state the nature of the replies received from the coal merchants in answer to the questions submitted by him on retail coal prices?
No, Sir. The questions were sent in writing to the coal merchants' representatives a week ago, and, in acknowledging their receipt, they informed me they would let me have the replies at the earliest possible moment.
Perfumed Spirits (Duty)
55 and 56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will allow British perfume manufacturers to use duty-free spirit in their process of manufacture, and thereby place them on an equal footing with the French competitor;
(2) if he is aware that unemployment in the perfumery industry is being caused by French competition in the home and foreign markets, due to the fact that the French article can be sold at a lower price because they are permitted to use duty-free spirit, whereas the British manufacturer has to pay a duty of 74s. per gallon; and will he take steps to reduce unemployment by lowering the duty, and so enable British manufacturers to extend their home and foreign trade?
As regards the first question, I am unable to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion. As regards the second, I am unable to anticipate the Budget statement, but I would point out that perfumed spirits imported in bottle from France are subject to a duty of £6 3s. 5d. per liquid gallon.
Death Duties (Payment in Securities)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of bonds received to date by the Government on account of Death Duties and similar charges since the first issue?
The nominal value of stock and bonds received to date in payment of Death Duties, Excess Profits Duty and Munitions Levy is, approximately, £308,736,000.
Victory Bonds
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total drawings of victory bonds to date and the proportion they bear to the whole number issued; the number of drawn bonds held at the time of drawing by the public, and the number, also at the time of drawing, in the hands of the Government?
The total amount of victory bonds drawn to date is £7,632,900. This figure is ·0212 of the original issue. Of the amount drawn, £427,575 was in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners at the time of drawing.
National Savings Certificates
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any provision is made in each year for the interest accruing on national savings certificates not anticipated to mature in such year; if so, what was the amount of such provision for the year ending 31st March, 1923; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of making such provision so as to prevent difficulties from arising in the future?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part, therefore, does not arise. In accordance with the general principle of our financial system, provision is only made in the Budget of any year for payments required to be made in the year, and I see no reason to depart from this principle by singling out one item in our large debt maturities for special treatment.
Ex-Service Men (Civil Service)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the Government's undertaking that competent temporary ex-service men should be recruited to the permanent Civil Service without the test of competitive examination, he will reconsider his decision to enforce such an examination and provide some other qualification for competence?
The proposal that temporary ex-service clerks should be recruited to the permanent Service without the test of competitive examination appears to be based on a misapprehension. As the right hon. Member is aware, this matter has been dealt with on the lines laid down by the Lytton Committee which involved, it is true, a written examination, but in no sense a competitive examination of the normal kind. The question what, if any, further action is necessary and what, if any, selective test other than that of written examination should be adopted is one for the consideration of the Southborough Committee, and I am unable to anticipate their recommendations.
Is it not the case that the Southborough Committee cannot override definite pledges and statements made by the present Government and the Prime Minister? Will the right hon. Gentleman not say definitely that those pledges shall be carried out, and there shall be no examination?
I replied on that point, I am afraid, at great length in the House some nights ago, and I made it perfectly plain that there must be some test of the efficiency of these men. To that, I think, it is quite impossible to add anything.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that I put this question down because of the ambiguity of the statement he then made? All that we want is to ask definitely, that whatever test there is, it shall not be an examination.
There was no ambiguity at all; in fact, the answer was perfectly plain to the whole House, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman.
Roads and Bridges
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the great increase of revenue from taxation of motor vehicles, he will consider the advisability of making substantial grants to all rural highway authorities towards the cost of improving, widening and maintaining existing roads, before allocating further sums for the construction of new motor roads?
The increase of revenue has enabled large grants to be made to rural highway authorities, particularly during the past year, towards the cost of improvement of the more important roads in their areas, and these authorities also receive the normal maintenance grants for any Class I and Class II roads for which they may be responsible. In this connection I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answers, given on 25th March to the hon. Member for the Harborough Division (Mr. Black) and on 6th March to the hon. Member for the Devizes Division (Mr. Macfadyen) of which I am sending him copies.
May I ask whether, in the event of making further grants to rural authorities, the hon. Gentleman will take steps to secure the appointment of competent surveyors?
asked the Minister of Transport what sums have been granted to rural district councils in the administrative County of Warwick towards the maintenance and reconstruction of third class and unclassified roads during the years 1922, 1923, and 1924?
The grants made were as follow:
asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in regard to the projected road bridges across the Forth and the Tay; and whether it is the policy of his Department to assist the scheme for an East Coast road route from Edinburgh to the North of Scotland?
The first stage in bridge projects of this magnitude must be to obtain preliminary engineering reports upon the feasibility of the schemes. I am disposed to assist the highway authorities concerned in bearing the expense of these reports, and after I have had an opportunity of considering them, I shall be better able to deal with the final portion of the hon. Member's question.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that within the parishes of Waltham, Humberstone, and Weelsby, in the county of Lindsey, Lincolnshire, there lies an important arterial highway leading to the urban district of Cleethorpes that is at present totally cut off; whether he is aware of the results of counsel's opinion; and if is he prepared to take action for the speedy restoration of this important arterial and awarded highway?
I am making inquiries into the matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the extra expenditure thrown upon the county area of the West Riding of Yorkshire in the repair of roads and bridges, due to traffic originating in and carried on between the county boroughs, is out of all proportion to the grants made from the Road Fund to the county council; and can he, in view of this fact, reconsider his decision?
The figures which I gave in answer to the hon. Member's question of 26th March, show that very substantial grants are made from the Road Fund towards the cost of the maintenance and improvement of Class I and Class II roads and bridges in the West Riding of Yorkshire. These grants are assessed on a uniform basis for the country as a whole, and the funds at my disposal will not allow of any increase in the general scale.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an inquiry made into the cost of one road showed that 92 per cent. of the traffic began and ended in the county boroughs, and is it not unfair to the counties that nothing should be paid by these boroughs to maintain these roads?
Post Office
Redcar (Letter Collection)
asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of his refusal to restore the late pre-War collection of letters at Redcar, in the North Riding of Yorkshire, as requested by the borough council and the trades and labour council, he will, in order to meet the convenience of the residents, most of whom are engaged in work away from the town, re-establish the pre-War late collection if letters bear a late fee stamp?
I fear that the cost of establishing a late-fee despatch on the lines suggested by the hon. Member would be out of all proportion to the amount of correspondence likely to be sent by it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these facilities existed before the War, and that there is just as much correspondence now as before the War; that there are plenty of men out of work to do the work, and that it would pay the Post Office to do it?
Yes, I am fully aware that many facilities existed before the War which do not exist to-day, and also, that to re-establish all these facilities would involve a huge additional cost.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that that is in keeping with his party's election pledges to find work?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been drawn to the need for the extension of the telephonic service at lower service charges in agricultural areas in Scotland; and is he prepared to extend the service and at lower charges, without taking into consideration the profits realised on the existing service?
The desirability of extending the telephone service in agricultural areas is fully recognised and certain services, for example rural party lines and small rural exchanges, which are in the main unremunerative, are provided expressly in order to meet the needs of inhabitants in such areas. In Scotland during the last 18 months 105 new exchanges have been authorised in rural areas, of which 76 have been opened in addition; the number of rural party stations reaches nearly 1,000 and rural telephone development generally is proceeding satisfactorily.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not now take into consideration the advisibility of reducing the minimum number of subscribers in the rural areas from eight to six?
May I also ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider the application to the telephone charges of the principle of the rates applied to letter delivery?
Will the right hon. Gentleman not take into consideration, too, in looking for remunerative offices, that where the fees are greatest the cost is greatest, and that it is not a fair thing to put upon the more distant places the heavier expense applicable to the less distant?
The question of reducing the number of subscribers has been already considered, but the loss on these rural exchanges is very considerable. As a matter of fact, the loss on the first one hundred that we investigated averages £65 per annum.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to supply the promised information with regard to the Pickering Exchange?
The proposed transfer of the telephone exchange at Pickering will probably result in the employment of an established telephonist in place of an established sorting clerk and telegraphist, but will not otherwise affect established posts. It is proposed to instal a caretaker operator, who would be paid according to the usual scale, based on the number of calls, hours of attendance, etc., and would be responsible for the telephone service during the hours when the established telephonist was not on duty. The scale pay in this case would probably be about 24s. a week, with a charge of 4s. or 4s. 6d. for the residential accommodation. The scale applied in these cases is at the present moment under discussion with representatives of the staff.
Sub-Offices, London
asked the Postmaster-General if he will supply the particulars of the town sub-offices in London, together with their emoluments, at which the basic emoluments exceed £500?
On the 1st March last there were 39 town sub-offices in the London postal area at which the total basic emoluments exceeded £500. I will send a list to the hon. Member.
Notices of Motion
India
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the state of India, and to move a Resolution.—[ Captain Viscount Curzon. ]
Foreign Affairs
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the question of Parliamentary control of Foreign Affairs, and to move a Resolution.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan. ]
Over-Capitalisation of Industry
On this day fortnight, to call attention to the Over-capitalisation of Industry, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Clark. ]
Gas Regulation Act, 1920 (Marple Gas Special Order)
Reported from the Select Committee, pursuant to the Order of the 4th March (Order, as amended, should be approved).
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Leasehold Enfranchisement Bill,
"to enable leaseholders of houses or premises, whose original leases were granted for a period or term of not less than thirty years to compulsorily acquire the freehold estate and such other outstanding interests affecting the property by agreement or, failing agreement, by arbitration under The Arbitration Act, 1889, or any statutory modification thereof," presented by Mr. HAYDN JONES; supported by Mr. James Gould, Mr. Ellis Davies, Major Lloyd George, Sir Ellis Griffith, Mr. George Hall, Mr. Morris, Major Owen, Colonel Parry, Mr. John, Sir Robert Thomas, and Mr. William Jenkins; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 93.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee B
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Mr. Dodds, Mr. Finney, Mr. Frank Lee, and Mr. Sutcliffe; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Romeril, Dr. Spero, Lady Terrington, and Colonel Vaughan-Morgan.
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Members to Standing Committee B: Mr. Barnes, Sir Henry Cowan, Mr. Franklin, Mr. James Gardner, Mr. Percy Harris, Lieut.-Colonel Horlick, Mr. Laverack, Mr. March, and Mr. Murrough Wilson.
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the London Traffic Bill): Mr. Briant, Sir William Bull, Captain Viscount Curzon, Mr. Gosling, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Frederick Hall, Sir Thomas Inskip, Mr. Kedward, Mr. Keens, Lieut. - Colonel Moore-Brabazon, Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Robert Morrison, Mr. Naylor, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Pownall, Mr. Atholl Robertson, and Mr. Benjamin Smith.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
In moving the Second Reading of this Bill, which arises out of the Treaty of Lausanne, and which is accompanied by a Financial Resolution, it only remains for me to explain the matter very briefly. This opportunity can, of course, be taken for a general discussion on the Treaty itself. The Treaty was negotiated and concluded by the last Government. The present Government are in no way responsible for its provisions, while what may be called the defence of the Treaty, which may be necessary in reply to criticisms, will naturally come from right hon. Gentlemen opposite. My duty consists in giving a brief explanation of the Bill, and to see that all the necessary formalities connected with it and the Financial Resolution are carried through as expeditiously as possible. I urge the House from a purely administrative point of view to pass this Bill, and so allow ratification of the Treaty without delay. There has, unfortunately, been regrettable, although unavoidable, delay. The House will remember that the first Lausanne Conference was adjourned in November, 1922, the second Conference sat between April and July, 1923, and the Treaty was signed on 24th July. The late Government were prevented, owing to political events at the end of last year, from introducing this Bill, and therefore from concluding the necessary formalities preparatory to ratification. We have been prevented by the pressure of the financial business, which had to be passed through the House before the end of March, from introducing the Bill sooner. In order to dispel misunderstandings which have been current with regard to the delay on the part of Great Britain in ratifying the Treaty, perhaps I may be allowed to say that both the late Government and the present Government have been equally anxious that ratification should take place as soon as possible, and have only been prevented by purely Parliamentary exigencies from effecting this purpose sooner.
The Government have taken the first available opportunity for the introduction of this Bill. They desire the renewal at the earliest possible moment of normal political, economic, and trade relations with Turkey. As to the Bill, it proceeds on the same lines as the Bills which have been passed by Parliament to give effect to the other Peace Treaties. The Peace settlement of Lausanne imposes certain obligations on its signatories which cannot be carried out without legislation. These legislative obligations are for the most part concerned with the economic portions of the settlement, especially in regard to such matters as contracts, debts, industrial property, etc. It is necessary to provide for the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal to be set up under Articles 92 to 97 of the Treaty, which under the Treaty has exclusive jurisdiction in certain cases arising out of contracts between British and Turkish nationals. It is also necessary to provide for the exercise of the jurisdiction over British subjects which is reserved by Article 16 of the Establishment Convention to British Courts in matters of personal status such as marriage, divorce, legitimacy, adoption, probate, and such like.
The Bill, like the other Treaties of Peace Bill, gives power to deal with these questions by Order in Council, and a draft of the necessary order has, in fact, already been prepared. The Bill provides that any Order made there under shall be laid before Parliament as soon as it is made, and that it will be open to either House of Parliament to secure the annulment of the Order if it disapproves of any of its provisions by presenting an address to that effect within 21 days. The Bill also contains a general covering sanction for the expenditure which will be imposed on British Funds by the terms of the settlement. A White Paper giving general particulars of this expenditure was laid before Parliament on 27th February. It is, however, laid down in the Bill that such expenditure and it is stated in the White Paper that the expenses specified therein
But before I sit down, I may be allowed to take advantage of this occasion in order to make a brief statement as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the important question of the submission of Treaties to Parliament. It has been the declared policy of the Labour party for some years past to strengthen the control of Parliament over the conclusion of international treaties and agreements, and to allow this House adequate opportunity to discuss the provisions of these instruments before their final ratification. His Majesty's Government desire at the earliest possible moment to inaugurate a new practice which will give effect to this policy. As matters now stand there is no constitutional obligation to compel the Government of the day to submit treaties to this House before ratification except in cases, such as the Treaty of Lausanne which is now under review, where a Bill or a Financial Resolution has to receive Parliamentary sanction before ratification. But as a rule formal publication of a treaty does not take place until after ratification unless Parliamentary action is necessary with regard to it. I need not weary the House with the many instances of important treaties which have been signed, sealed, and ratified before this House has been afforded an opportunity of discussing their provisions.
In recent years international questions have come to be of crucial importance, and the interest taken in them has greatly increased. The Dominions are now consulted before ratification, and the desire of this House to exercise some proper supervision over international agreements has to some extent been respected. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill) said on the 16th January, the last occasion on which he spoke as Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs:
All Treaties?
Yes, all Treaties. There are three possible methods, and the first is legislation. The second method is by Resolution of the House, which in this instance would have to take the form of an address to the Crown which, constitutionally speaking, is the Treaty-making power. The third method is by the inauguration of a new custom, accompanied by the arrangement of the appropriate machinery for giving effect to the new procedure. I will dismiss in a few words the idea of proceeding by means of legislation. An Act of Parliament may be the most imposing method of effecting a constitutional change, but no Act of Parliament can be so worded as to prevent its being altered by another Act of Parliament. Moreover, we should plunge the House into a morass of constitutional controversy, in which, no doubt, we might be accused of invading the prerogatives of the Crown, and the underlying principle, about which, I believe, there is general agreement, would be lost sight of. I therefore rule out legislation as a clumsy and undesirable method of accomplishing our purpose.
A Resolution which, as I have said, must take the form of an Address to the Crown, also does not appear to be at this moment the best means of effecting the necessary changes. For one thing, it would narrow down the issue to one special form of treaty, and our intentions extend beyond that. I do not rule out an Address to the Crown should the House wish at some future time to place on record their decision with regard to this special class of Treaty in a formal manner. I come, therefore, to the inauguration of a change in custom and procedure. At first sight this may appear to be an inadequate method of carrying out the Government's intentions. I would, however, remind the House of the paradox that, under the British Constitution, it is rules that depend solely on practice and usage which are the most immutable. A change effected by Acts of Parliament is not likely to last so long as one effected solely by Ministers as a change of practice, and dependent only on the will of the Members of the Legislature for the time being.
4.0 P.M.
If this new system works well, then it will endure; if it does not work, then there is no reason why it should continue. It is on these lines that we intend to proceed. There are two sorts of Treaties. There is the present Treaty, like Lausanne, out of which a Bill and a Financial Resolution arise and which necessarily comes before Parliament and in regard to which no change is necessary. But there is another sort of Treaty out of which no Bill arises, and that is the sort of Treaty which, according to present practice, need never be brought before the House at all. It is the intention of His Majesty's Government to lay on the Table of both Houses of Parliament every Treaty, when signed, for a period of 21 days, after which the Treaty will be ratified and published and circulated in the Treaty Series. In the case of important Treaties, the Government will, of course, take an opportunity of submitting them to the House for discussion within this period. But, as the Government cannot take upon itself to decide what may be considered important or unimportant, if there is a formal demand for discussion forwarded through the usual channels from the Opposition or any other party, time will be found for the discussion of the Treaty in question.
By this means secret Treaties and secret clauses of Treaties will be rendered impossible. Resolutions expressing Parliamentary approval of every Treaty before ratification would toe a very cumbersome form of procedure and would burden the House with a lot of unnecessary business. The absence of disapproval may be accepted as sanction, and publicity and opportunity for discussion and criticism are the really material and valuable elements which henceforth will be introduced. Public Treaties in these days do not come with surprise before Parliament. The Government's intentions are made known, the work of conferences is given a great deal of publicity, there are discussions on the Foreign Office Vote, and there are also Parliamentary questions. Nevertheless, it seems to the Government necessary that the instrument in its final shape should in all cases be submitted to Parliament which ultimately is the supreme governing body of the nation.
Do the Government intend in future to send a Bill upstairs to a Standing Committee in order that the matter may be discussed with greater freedom, without taking up so much time of the House, as, otherwise, I am afraid would be the case? Has that matter been considered, or will the hon. Gentleman give favourable consideration to it?
I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the present Bill.
No, not this one.
Other Bills arising out of Treaties will be very similar to this Bill, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion would require consideration. I cannot answer it at the present time. There are, of course, international conventions of a purely technical character which are not subject to ratification, and there is no reason to alter the procedure with regard to them. But treaties such as those with which I am dealing do not cover the whole ground, and His Majesty's Government desire that Parliament should also exer- cise supervision over agreements, commitments, and understandings by which the nation may be bound in certain circumstances and which may involve international obligations of a serious character, although no signed and sealed document may exist. One might be tempted to give illustrations of understandings of this sort, but I do not want to introduce any controversial element into this statement, more so because I believe the principle that we intend to adopt will receive ready assent from all quarters of the House. During our term of office, we shall inform the House of all agreements, commitments, and understandings which may in any way bind the nation to specific action in certain circumstances. We consider it of the highest importance that the country should not find itself compelled to take action along certain lines without the public mind being prepared for such a contingency, and without Parliament having cognisance of the particular agreement which may constitute an obligation of honour. This is our intention. There is no method by which we can bind future Governments—
Is this discussion on constitutional procedure in regard to Treaties relevant to the Motion before the House?
Is it not within your cognisance that many hon. Members desire to take part in the Debate on the Treaty of Peace with Turkey? The hon. Member is now introducing an extremely interesting and very important constitutional discussion on the question of the power of this House in ratifying treaties. We, therefore, really have two subjects of the very first importance to discuss between now and a quarter past Eight o'clock.
I cannot say that the hon. Member is out of order, but other hon. Members are not bound to follow him.
Is it not the case that the hon. Member, in introducing this Bill, stated that this was a case which under any circumstances must have been submitted to the House. That makes it perfectly certain that we must discuss this Bill. But the hon. Gentleman went far beyond that, and touched upon Bills which do not answer to that description at all; and he has opened, I venture to submit, a very important constitutional question which must be discussed, quite apart from the Bill which he is introducing.
If that be the case, I think it would be better not to pursue that subject on the present occasion. It should have a debate to itself.
I apologise if I have introduced any extraneous matter in explaining this Bill, but I thought it was a fitting opportunity to explain why this Bill was brought forward, and to give some indication of the method which His Majesty's Government intend to adopt in the case of treaties coming before this House. I really have nothing further to say on the question, as I think I have made it clear to the House what the Government's intentions are. I can hardly believe that from any quarter of the House there will be any protest at the procedure which the Government intend to adopt, and, as I believe that in these days, when foreign affairs are of such importance members of all parties desire that opportunities shall be given for the discussion of treaties, I did not think that I was introducing any controversial matter. With regard to the Bill now before the House—
Might I be permitted to ask the hon. Gentleman a question before he concludes this part of his subject? Is it the intention of the Government to publish any treaties already existing and which up to now have been of a somewhat secret character?
I think my hon. Friend will remember that that question was answered by the Prime Minister some time ago. I do not desire to detain the House any longer. I have explained the provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne which is now before the House.
You have not said a word about it.
I mean the Bill arising out of the Treaty. After all, it is a small technical matter, and I will conclude by urging Members in all quarters to help us in passing this Bill through its various stages in order that ratification may take place at the earliest possible date and our normal relations with Turkey may be speedily renewed.
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will permit me to say that he has made a very remarkable speech. He began by saying that it was for us to defend this Treaty, and that the Government could take no responsibility for it. Then what are we doing this afternoon? I understand that there will probably be a Division upon the subject. Are the Government prepared to put their Whips on this Bill or what are they going to do? It is an amazing piece of abdication for the Government to come down here with a Treaty, which, whether one approves of all its provisions or does not, is at any rate one of the great Treaties of the day, one of the four or five big Peace Treaties following the War, and say, "We have no responsibility for it and it is only as far as the administration of it goes, that we introduce this Bill." What is meant by that?
May I correct the right hon. Gentleman? I did not say that the Government have no responsibility in the matter. I said the Government were not responsible for the provisions of the Treaty. They are responsible for seeing that the Treaty and the Bill are carried through the necessary stages for ratification.
That seems to me to be a distinction which it is very difficult to follow. I should like to ask the Prime Minister this question, for I understand he is going to speak towards the end of the Debate. Does he approve of this Treaty, or does he not? If he does not approve of this Treaty, why are we being asked to ratify it to-day.
Do you approve of it?
Yes, I do.
That is all right.
And I am going to give my reasons why. There was the other part of the speech of the Under-Secretary, upon which you have ruled that we should not now enter into any long Debate upon the wisdom of the course that he has just explained to the House. I think you will allow me, without in any way going into that question, to say simply this. Obviously, after the statement of the Under-Secretary, we are not in a position to-day to go further into the discussion, even though it were in order. But it seems to me to be a statement of some importance and the description of a policy which, whilst we may agree with it generally in principle, may, if carried out in the way the Under-Secretary described, put the Government to great delay and considerable difficulty. I would, therefore, only venture to say that we shall ask for an early day, whether it be on the Foreign Office Vote or at some other opportunity, to discuss that policy in all its bearings.
For the time being I take note of this fact, and I would ask the House to take note of it also, that the Government are going to enter into no agreement, whether it be a Treaty or whether it be an agreement not exactly in the nature of a Treaty, of any importance, without the approval of this House. I assume, therefore, that the Prime Minister will enter into no agreement with the Allies upon the question of reparations, and that he will enter into no agreement with the Russian delegates upon the question of our relations with Russia or the position of the Russian debt to this country, without the previous approval of the House. The Prime Minister shakes his head. If the House is not to give its previous approval, what is the good of it at all? Anyhow, the fact that there is some doubt upon this question makes it all the more necessary that the Prime Minister should make it clear at the earliest opportunity. While we cannot, in the time we have at our disposal, go into the question in any detail this evening, I hope very much that, when he comes to reply, he will at any rate be able to say that those two great questions—the question of reparations and inter-Allied debts, and the question of our relations with Russia—will be subject to the statement which the Under-Secretary has just made, and that we shall have an opportunity of discussing both of them in the House before any agreement is signed.
Having diverted to that extent from my speech upon the Treaty of Lausanne, let me now come back to the duty that I should have thought was upon the shoulders of the Government—the defence of the Treaty that they are asking the House to ratify to-day. I suppose that it would be easy to make criticisms against this Treaty, just as it would be easy to make criticisms against any of the Treaties that have ended the War; but I venture to think that, if it would be very easy to criticise certain provisions of the Treaty, it would be much easier to criticise the events that led up to the Treaty, and made its provisions almost inevitable. It would be very easy, if it were worth while, to point back to the delays, the mistakes, and the differences on the part of the Allies that made it quite impossible, even if we had wished it, to obtain severer terms at the expense of Turkey. When Lord Curzon went to Lausanne in November, 1922, it was not a question of dictating the terms that we desired as victors upon the vanquished, as we had dictated terms at Versailles, or St. Germains, or Neuilly; it was a case of arguing point by point, and convincing, not only our Allies, but the Turks, who had just come flushed with a great victory over the Greeks, perfectly ready to continue fighting, and knowing only too well that neither we nor the other Allies had any intention of enforcing our terms at the point of the bayonet. It was a case, therefore, not of making a perfect Treaty after our own desire, but of arriving by patience, by argument, and in face of every kind of difficulty, at some kind of Treaty that would bring about a renewal of peaceful relations between the West and Turkey.
It seems to me, and I think my view will be confirmed by anyone who will read the record of the proceedings in the Blue Book that has been published, that our gratitude is due to Lord Curzon for the great patience and persistency that he showed through all those weary months, and without which it would have been totally impossible to have had any peace at all. This being so, I would ask the House, when it passes judgment upon the Treaty this evening, to remember the circumstances—and they were very difficult circumstances—in which it was actually signed. There were three main questions, all of them of great complexity, with a long record of historical difficulty behind them, that had to be settled. There was the question of capitulations; there was the question of the treatment of the Christian minorities; and there was, thirdly, that old historic question of the freedom of the Straits. In the settlement of each of these three questions the conflict arose between the old conception of the theocratic Ottoman Empire and the new conception of the Turkish National State. The old conception of the Ottoman Empire—that curious, mediæval theocracy, hedged round with every kind of extra-territorial reservation and limitation, with none of the Western idea of sovereignty, with none of the Western idea of nationalism as its background—and the new idea of a Turkish National State, claiming complete sovereignty after the manner of Western nationalities, and resenting any attempt to restrict its liberty of action by capitulations for traders or by special treatment for this or that minority. It was that conflict of opinion that was brought to a head upon the question of capitulations and upon the question of the Christian minorities.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not originate it. Almost immediately after the Treaty of Sèvres the conflict came into prominence, and at conference after conference further concessions had to be made in practice to the conception of the sovereign Turkish National State. When it came to the Treaty of Lausanne, it was a matter, not of originating any new policy, but of confirming what actually existed—the fact that the old Ottoman Empire had come to an end, and that in its place a Turkish National State, claiming the sovereign powers of a Western National State, had come into being. That being so, it became practically impossible to continue in force the old conception of capitulations or the old conception of the special protection of particular parts of the minorities under the Turkish rule. The Treaty of Lausanne merely registered a state of affairs which was actually in existence, and I would ask hon. Members who object to the provisions in the Treaty connected with those two subjects—the capitulations and the protection of the Christian minorities—to answer these two questions: "What better proposals could in the circumstances have been introduced into the Treaty?" And, "If you do not like the proposals that are in the Treaty, would you have broken up the Conference at Lausanne and plunged Turkey and the West back into a state of war?" I hope, very much, that if hon. Members, in the course of this Debate, criticise the attitude of the Treaty towards either the question of capitulations or the question of Christion minorities, they will tell the House quite clearly what they would have desired to have in their place.
It is significant, so far as the capitulations are concerned, that, as I understand, no protest has been made against the Treaty by the British communities trading in Turkey. So far as the Christian minorities are concerned, I venture to think that the situation is not such as we should desire. The Christian minorities are left with what protection there may be under the Minorities Clauses that are common to the other Peace Treaties; but, there, again, the Treaty of Lausanne was really only registering what actually was the state of affairs. Concession after concession had been made to the Turks at the Conference held in London in 1921, and at the Conference held in Paris a year afterwards, under which the idea of the mandatory power for the protection of the minorities was abandoned, under which the idea of a national State for the Armenians was virtually abandoned, and under which a number of other proposals, that it was originally hoped to include in the settlement for the protection of Christians, had, in the actual face of events, to be abandoned if any peace was to be signed. So far as this part of the Treaty is concerned, we have to look with what confidence we may have to the Minorities Clauses of the Treaty. It rests with us to see that those Clauses are properly carried out, and that the Council of the League maintains the strictest scrutiny to see that they are carried out. It rests with us also, I suggest to the Prime Minister, to take what steps we can to help the Assyrian Christians in our mandated territory of Iraq and to help the Armenians in the project that I understand is now being discussed to make it possible for them to emigrate to Erivan. It rests with us also, perhaps most important of all—it does not amount to much, but for what it is worth we ought to give them all the help we can—to make it quite clear to the Turks that we shall regard a changed attitude on their part towards the Christian minorities as one of the tests by which we shall judge the sincerity of their claim to be regarded as a civilised national State.
Then there was the other of the three great questions—the question of the freedom of the Straits—and there again there was the same conflict between the old idea of a protected Turkey, hedged in by every kind of European limitation, and the new idea of the Turkish National State. For, almost immediately after the War, the Allies—I think rather unwisely—abandoned the idea of internationalising Constantinople and of leaving the Turks to develop their national future in Anatolia. But, having abandoned that idea, they fell back upon the old conception of hedging about Turkish sovereignty in Constantinople and in Europe with every kind of limitation. There was to be an inter-Allied garrison in European Turkey; there was to be a Straits Commission with very great executive powers; and, as for Constantinople itself, it would really have amounted to little more than a kind of Vatican in which the Caliph would have lived, surrounded by an inter-Allied army and by an inter-Allied control practically governing the whole situation. There, again, it seems to me that that idea broke down for two very good reasons. In the first place, it depended upon the willingness of the Allies to keep a garrison in European Turkey and to impose their will upon the Turks, if necessary by the force of arms. It soon became clear that the Allies had no such intention, and that none of them were prepared even to keep the troops which would have been required for the International garrison, and, on the Turkish side, it broke down from the fact that the Turkish National State had come into being and that it would have been quite impossible to make peace terms with anything resembling that conception of the Turkish position in Constantinople in Europe. The problem, therefore, became limited to one of finding some means of keeping the Straits open for the passage of ships of war and ships of merchandise, together with some kind of security given to the Turks, who were put in a less favourable position from the fact that their capital was to be surrounded by demilitarised zones upon which they were not empowered to put permanent fortifications. Those two conditions are the explanation of the terms of the Treaty in connection with the freedom of the Straits. It seems to me to be no small achievement that the Black Sea is no longer a close preserve for Russia and the Danube States, but that henceforth the passage is open, not only for the ships of merchandise, but also for the ships of war of all the powers of Western Europe.
Can Russian ships go through to the Mediterranean?
Yes, certainly. I see the view expressed in an Amendment, which I understand is to be moved later, that these provisions are imposing a dangerous obligation upon the British Empire, that we are entering into a vague commitment for a guarantee of the security of Constantinople and European Turkey, and that we may be dragged in to a European war with which we have no interest, not only to our own risk, but to the risk of our good relations with the Dominions. I have this to say to these objections. First of all, the commitment is strictly limited to the actual guarantee of the liberty of passage through the Straits. It is a collective and not an individual guarantee on the part of this or that Power which has entered into it. It is joint and not several. Moreover, as a further safeguard, it is the Council of the League of Nations which is to interpret the fact whether or not a casus fœderis under these provisions has actually arisen.
And the methods to be applied.
As the Prime Minister says, more important still not only whether a case of the Treaty had actually arisen but what were the methods actually to be applied when that case had arisen. Further than that, even after the decision of the Council, it still rests with the great Powers who are principally giving the guarantee to decide among themselves what actual obligations they would undertake. That is the first answer I make to hon. Members who are supporting the Amendment on these lines. The second answer is of a different character. They suggest in their Amendment that the Dominions will not approve of these provisions in the Convention. All I can say in answer to that objection is that this question was considered at the Imperial Conference and, as far as I know, not a criticism was made against it by any representative of any Dominion. Further, would hon. Members who hold the view that this is a dangerous commitment have gone the length of actually breaking down the negotiations rather than entering into it, for I am assured that that was the situation with which we were faced. If we wanted liberty of passage through the Straits, if we wanted the freedom of the Straits, if we wanted to make peace at Lausanne, we had to give this limited guarantee, and I think the Turks were not altogether unjustified in asking for it in view of the circumstances, we had to give this limited guarantee to Ismet Pasha at Lausanne.
I have tried to deal with what seemed to me to be the three principal questions raised by this Treaty. Hon. Members will see how they are dealt with in its provisions, and I would ask those who are prepared to criticise them whether, as the result of the signature of the Treaty, our prestige has been lowered in any part of the world. Certainly not in Turkey, for there one need not go further than the man who is probably best qualified to speak, General Sir Charles Harington, who after the splendid work he did at Constantinople during the last three years came back and told the country that our prestige never stood higher in Turkey than it does now. Certainly not in the Near East, for in the Near East we carried out our obligations to the full in setting up the Arab State and in freeing the Arab populations from Turkish domination. Certainly not, I suggest, in the Dominions or in India. So far as the Dominions are concerned not a protest was made against the Treaty during the whole period of the Imperial Conference. So far as India was concerned the signature of the Treaty was greeted with acclamation, and it became quite obvious that at last there had been removed a constant source of estrangement and irritation between the peoples of India and the people of this country. I would not, even if I had time, go into the causes of that irritation. I thought at the time that much of it was due to political agitation and much was due to misunderstanding. But there was the solid fact that on one of the great issues of British foreign policy, the people of India held a very different view from the people of this country and of the other Dominions, It must be a satisfaction to every hon. Member that that cause of difference has, by the signature of this Treaty, been removed and that, after a considerable period, there is now, as far as foreign policy is concerned, a united front between the peoples of India and the rest of the Empire. In view of these facts, I hope the House will lose no further time before they ratify the Treaty.
Turkey is embarking upon a new period, fraught with great difficulties. Turkey, for the first time, is attempting to take the part of a western national State. We, on this side of the House, while realising the great difficulties of the task before Turkey, shall look on at that experiment with interest and good will. We believe that Turkey will still have to look for Western help in the great task that is before her in setting her finances in order, in developing her resources and in consolidating her State. While we are not blind to these difficulties, and whilst we cannot help noting, sometimes with great anxiety, the extreme action into which from time to time she is being drawn, nevertheless, we regard with satisfaction the opportunity of ratifying this Treaty and of reopening once more peaceful relations between the new Turkish Republic and the British Empire. That being so, I hope there will be no further delay in the ratification of the Treaty. As far as we are concerned on this side of the House, we are perfectly prepared to assist the Government in taking the first stage this evening.
I think it is plain from the two speeches to which we have listened that there is no one in this House who is really enthusiastic about the Treaty of Lausanne. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs delivered a speech which could hardly be described as a pæan in favour of the Treaty. It was a speech of an obituary character; it rather resembled a dirge. He professed to have explained to the House, and to have justified to the House, the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne, but, as a matter of fact, he did nothing of the kind. He raced away from the Treaty at the earliest possible opportunity.
It is not his Treaty.
True, it is not his Treaty. At any rate, he raced away from the Treaty and described to the House a plan for the Americanisation of the British Constitution. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir F. Hoare) delivered a very able apology for the Treaty, but his skilful exercise was played on muted strings. I did not detect in his very clear exposition any note of enthusiasm. He enlarged upon the great difficulties which confronted the British negotiators, upon the intractability of the Turks, upon their new absolutist and nationalist theories, upon the difficulty of harmonising those theories with the views of the British Government and, in fact, told us that nothing better could have been done.
There are three Amendments on the Order Paper which are a sufficient indication that this Treaty is viewed with feelings of great concern and much dismay in many quarters. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham (Sir E. Grigg) proposes to move an Amendment which draws the attention of the House to the grave liability contracted by this country under the Straits Convention, and he proposes to invite our attention to the fact that those liabilities concern not only Great Britain but India and the Dominions, and that until their views have been clearly expressed it is inexpedient to proceed with this Bill. I do not propose to enter upon the subject matter of my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment. I am glad that he has raised the question, because it is a very important one. Nor do I think the right hon. Member for Chelsea quite adequately met the substance and gravamen of the Amendment when he told us that the Dominion Premiers had approved the Treaty of Lausanne at the Imperial Conference. The real question is, were the Dominion Premiers fully apprised of the great range and extent of the liabilities which they were asked to lay upon the shoulders of their respective communities.
However, I do not propose to deal with the Straits question, which I leave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham, but to draw the attention of the House to two respects in which I find this Treaty most palpably unsatisfactory. I allude to the question of the capitulations and the question of the protection of Christian minorities. The capitulations have gone. Soon after the outbreak of war, in September, 1914, the Turkish Government, by a unilateral declaration, abolished the capitulations. It was a bold step; it was an impudent step. I am the last person to wish to defend the capitulations in all their qualities and particulars. The capitulation system has lasted a very long time. It was introduced in the early years of the 16th century and contains many injustices and many anomalies. I fully understand the weight of the objection which the nationalist Government of Turkey took against the capitulation system, for in some respects the privileges granted to foreign communities and foreign traders in Turkish Dominions under the capitulations were unjust. I think they were unjust, for instance, in that a British trader in Turkey and a British resident in Turkey were exempt from taxation, with the exception of land taxes.
I quite agree that the time had come for a comprehensive revision of this system, which was intended to protect and which did, in fact, protect foreign residents, foreign communities, foreign traders in Turkey from the oppression of Turkish law, Turkish law courts, Turkish police and Turkish prisons. But it is one thing to revise the capitulations; it is one thing, even, to abolish the capitulations, but it is another thing altogether to leave the British residents and the British traders in Turkey altogether unprotected. When the question of the capitulations came up for discussion at Lausanne, the Japanese Plenipotentiary observed that it took 20 years to abolish the system of capitulations in Japan. The Japanese cherished just the same objection to the capitulations as did the Turkish Government. To them, also, it was a sign of humiliation that the foreign trader or resident in Japan should be subject to this exceptional regime, but the Japanese realised that until they had modernised their legal system, until they had modernised their law, until they had made it reasonable for foreign traders to trust themselves to Japanese justice and to the Japanese legal system, it was unreasonable, and more than unreasonable; it was not consonant with Japanese interests, as a country with industrial ambitions, that this system should be swept away and nothing left in its place. Accordingly, in Japan there was for 20 years an intermediate regime between the first attack on the fortress of the capitulations and the final emancipation of Japan.
What has happened in regard to Turkey? The capitulations have been abolished. The high contracting parties under Clause 28 of the Treaty have accepted the complete abolition of the capitulations in Turkey, in every respect. Henceforward, British traders in Turkey, both in Asiatic Turkey and in European Turkey, will be surrendered to the tender mercies of the Ottoman courts and the Ottoman law. I would like to quote the testimony of an Englishman whose word in such a matter as this will be respected in every quarter of the House. When the question of the abolition of capitulations came up at Lausanne, Sir Horace Rumbold made some important observations. After pointing out the general dismay which had been caused throughout the European communities in Turkey by the arbitrary proceedings of the Turkish authorities in regard to foreign persons and foreign interests, on their re-entry into Smyrna; after recalling the Turkish seizure of the Smyrna-Aidin Railway system, and the sequestration of money belonging to Greeks and Armenians in the banks. Sir Horace proceeded as follows:
Those are remarkable words, and in order to repair the threatening situation, Sir Horace Rumbold proposed certain questions to the Turkish Delegation. I will read two important questions which were put—
The second defect of the Treaty to which I desire to draw attention is its deficient protection for the Christian minorities. The Turk may have many merits. Often in this House I have watched that gallant and romantic figure, the late Colonel Aubrey Herbert, rise and explain to us the many virtues and merits of his Turkish friends, and, as I have listened to his engaging eloquence, I have always felt that, in spite of all the crimes which have been charged to the Turkish account, there must be something sound and something attractive in the common nature of the Turkish people if it could enlist so warm a regard from a man of such fastidious tastes and flawless integrity. But, however numerous may be the merits of the Turk, and however much hardihood and sobriety there may be in him, the Turk has never been conspicuous for his management of the Christian populations subject to his rule. His reign has been a long catalogue of oppressions and cruelties, and never has the story of Turkish rule been defaced by blacker crimes against humanity than in the last eight years.
I remember undertaking the painful task of reading through Lord Bryce's most impressive collection of documents on the unfortunate fate of the Armenian population in the early years of the War, but what are we doing for the Christian minorities under this Treaty? I do not wish to be one-sided and unfair, and I will grant at once to the right hon. Baronet that the general balance of power which has been effected in the East as a result of the victory of Lord Allenby appears to me to be juster than the balance of power in the East has been for many centuries. The Arab world has been emancipated from the blighting rule of the Turk. Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia, and Arabia are now able to pursue their several destinies with some hope that they may cultivate the arts of peace. Egypt has been freed from Turkey; the chains which bound her have been broken, and she has also entered the path of the constitutional realm. But when I turn to those territories which are subjected to Turkish rule, I cannot but feel that the provision for the protection of Minorities leaves very much to be desired. There are, indeed, Minorities Clauses. Clauses 37 to 44 of the Treaty are concerned with the protection of Minorities, and I will grant at once that on paper these Clauses are very good. They are practically identical with the Minorities Clauses which Poland and other countries have accepted under the ægis of the League of Nations. I do not wish to argue—it would be absurd to do so—that they are entirely valueless. They may be, perhaps, more valuable by reason of the fact that Turkey in accepting them feels that she is accepting the conditions which Poland, who was on the Allies' side, has also accepted; and since the Minorities Articles are placed under the guarantee of the League of Nations and cannot be modified without the consent of the Council of the League, and since, further, it is open for any member of the League to bring to the attention of the Council any violation of these Articles, I agree that there may be some value in the Clauses, but I do not think it is very great. There is no adequate machinery for protecting Minorities in the places where they live, or for bringing their complaints rapidly to the notice of the League, or for impressing upon the Turkish Government the necessity of proper treatment.
When we talk about the protection of Minorities, I remember an interview which I had with an old Armenian two years ago at Geneva. He said to me: "I do not think you British need worry about introducing Minorities Clauses into your Treaty." I said: "Why not?" He replied: "Because the Minorities have all been killed off; there are no Minorities," and I am afraid there is an element of tragic truth in that assertion. But if there are no Minorities now, the Christian populations will soon begin to swell again. I had a letter the other day from a friend of mine in Angora, who has just travelled through Anatolia, pointing out that it was remarkable how the Greeks and Armenians were filtering back to render services which only the Christian populations in Asia Minor can render to the fabric of Turkish society. Depend upon it, before many years are out there will be scattered over the Anatolian Highlands a great number of Christians, whether Greeks or Armenians, and I am very much afraid that unless we can fortify this Treaty in time, there will not be any adequate security for them against a repetition of Turkish oppression.
Meanwhile, I would suggest to His Majesty's Government that this Treaty does not terminate its obligations to the Christian population in the Near East. It is not sufficient to throw to them the fine words of the seven Minority Clauses. There is a remnant of the Armenian nation now gathered into the Russian province of Erivan, and I understand that to these Armenians the Russian Government have just offered a grant of territory. I am not certain—perhaps the Prime Minister will inform me when he rises—under what conditions this territory is granted. Nor am I certain as to the chance of the Armenian refugees making good in this territory. But I gather that Armenian opinion all over the world is greatly exercised by this prospect of acquiring an Armenian home in the territory south of Erivan, and that subscriptions are being raised privately in many countries with the view of assisting in the restoration of Armenian refugees and the construction of an Armenian State. I am informed that the French Government have given a subscription, though not a very large one, towards this purpose, and I would suggest to the Prime Minister that, in view of the repeated pledges of the British Government that they would assist the Armenians to obtain a national home, we should also make a contribution to this purpose, and that this contribution should be on a liberal scale.
I have criticised this Treaty. I think that it should be amended. At the same time it is clear that we must, sooner or later—and better sooner than later—have a good peace with the Turks. This peace may be either a sterile peace or a fruitful peace. I would suggest that we should endeavour to make it a fruitful peace, and that, as soon as we are satisfied that we can obtain the amendments to the Treaty which are essential, if our trade interests are to be protected and the Christian population is to be protected, we should then make it clear to the Turkish people that we are willing to co-operate with them and help them to build up a strong efficient State. The Turks respect us, and the Turks will follow us. We have it in our power to build up great influence among the Turkish people. I think we should do so. But if we try, the first step obviously is that we must go to Angora. The Turkish capital has been transferred to the Anatolian Highlands, and I submit to the Prime Minister that it is impossible for the British Government to exercise influence over Turkish policy and to exercise any protection over the Christian minorities unless we have direct representation in the capital of the Turkish State.
For my part, I welcome the transfer of the Turkish capital from the atmo- sphere of intrigue and corruption, which has for centuries prevailed in Constantinople, to the Highlands of Anatolia where there is a wholesome, simple, robust population, a population which was the strength of the Byzantine Empire, and which has also been the strength of all the Turkish Armies who have ever taken the field. This is a bad Treaty, a Treaty about which Englishmen feel peculiarly humiliated, because it surrenders interests which we have over and over again pledged ourselves solemnly to protect and safeguard, a Treaty which, by the way, violates the Treaty of Neuilly with Bulgaria, and which bears within it the seeds of future conflict. Nevertheless, though I object to the Treaty, and though I think it ought to be amended, I hold strongly that we should at the earliest possible opportunity, consistently with the amendments which British interests and British honour demand, make a satisfactory peace with the Turkish people.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words The Amendment deals solely with one point, that is, the obligation which we contract under the Straits Convention annexed to the Treaty of Lausanne. That Straits Convention raises an issue of great importance to Imperial unity at the present time. I think, therefore, that no apology need be made for calling attention to it.
There is no subject of foreign policy which is coming more into the forefront of the whole problem than this question of pacts and guarantees. They are coming up in different forms, and they raise two very important and separate issues. The first issue is as to whether this country is to undertake any special pacts and guarantees, in addition to the general obligation under which it lies by its signature to the Covenant of the League of Nations. The second question, equally important, is whether, if this country does undertake any special guarantees, it is to undertake them simply as Great Britain, or is not to undertake them except with the consent of all parties of the British Empire. This Straits Convention raises both those issues. Article 18 of the Straits Convention gives a definite guarantee to Turkey of the status quo of Constantinople and the neighbourhood of the Straits. Therefore, if we ratify this Convention with the approval of this House, the whole Empire will be bound by our action. Therefore this Amendment raises an essential issue of foreign policy at the present moment, both from the domestic and the Imperial standpoint.
The right hon. Member for Chelsea said the obligation was perhaps not a serious one. I shall endeavour to meet his argument on that point. I say that the obligation is a serious one, and that the action of this House will commit the whole Empire to it whether the Dominions approve or not, and therefore we ought to know exactly where we stand both in regard to our own commitments and in regard to the Dominions. And this House, therefore, should not pass this Bill without fuller information and fuller debate. The right hon. Member for Chelsea said that the Dominions, so far as he knew, have expressed no objection to this Convention. That may be so, but I would ask the leave of the House to go over the history of this matter so far as it is known to the public. There may be other information. If that be the case, the public has not had it, and I think the public is entitled to that information.
How was this peace treaty negotiated? Other great peace treaties since the Armistice were all negotiated by representatives, who included plenipotentiaries from each of the Dominions. That was the principle invariably adopted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). This Treaty was not negotiated on that principle. The plenipotentiaries who represented the British Empire were Lord Curzon and Sir Horace Rumbold, and there were no plenipotentiaries from the Dominions. I make no criticism of the method of negotiating the peace, because, as I understand, the Dominions accepted it, and, if so, obviously there is no more to be said. But the point of real importance is that the plenipotentiaries who negotiated the peace settlement went much further than the mere negotiation of a peace settlement. Had they confined themselves to that, there would be very little criticism to be made, but they went further, and negotiated, not only a peace settlement, but they committed this country to a definite obligation under Article 18 of the Straits Convention.
It is true that in that Article only Great Britain is mentioned as one of the four Powers giving any special guarantee to Turkey. But is this House to be told that Great Britain can act in a matter of this kind, as a European Power, without reference to the Empire as a whole? Everyone knows that if Great Britain signs such a pact the Empire is committed, and the plenipotentiaries, who negotiated this Convention on behalf of the Empire, did commit the Empire as a whole when they negotiated it. One very remarkable feature about the Treaty and the Convention is this. It is unusual. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs negotiated in Paris the pact of guarantee to France, as an addition to the Treaty of Versailles, he made it an entirely separate instrument from the Treaty of Versailles. That is not the case with this Convention. A very remarkable paragraph has been introduced into Article 143 of the Treaty, which provides that So there is no means at present, so far as I understand, of accepting the Treaty as a peace settlement, but not accepting the Straits Convention. The two things have been bound together by the plenipotentiaries who negotiated the peace. That is a very extraordinary procedure. We should like to know what reason there was for it. But another feature of great peculiarity to which attention should be called in this respect is this. There are three Conventions annexed to the Treaty of Lausanne which are of importance to the British Empire. There, is the Convention respecting the conditions of business and residence and jurisdiction, and there is the commercial Convention. There are those two, in addition to the Straits Convention. It is a very remarkable thing that the two least important of these conventions, the convention regarding the conditions of business and so on, and the commercial Convention, contain the Clause which has now become universal in treaties negotiated on behalf of the Empire, which exempts the Dominions unless they choose to accept it on their own behalf. That Clause, I thought, was common form in all treaties and conventions negotiated by this country. It has been inserted in two conventions, and it has been deliberately omitted from the Straits Convention. That omission requires explanation. The right hon. Gentleman assured us that the Dominions have made no objection to this Convention. He was, present at the last Imperial Conference. I observed that his assurances on that point were vague; they were purely negative. He did not say that the Dominions understood and approved, but simply said that they raised no objection. What information has been given to the House upon that point? The only information we have had is in two published documents. First, the Appendices to the Summary of Proceedings of the Imperial Conference give, or purport to give, Lord Curzon's speech, when he explained the Treaty to the assembled Dominion Prime Ministers. I would like to call the special attention of the House to what he said: actually approved this Convention. The right hon. Gentleman may be able to give us further information to-night, and I hope he may be able to do so. In any case, at the time when these questions were put he was not able to give any further information as to the Dominions approving this Convention. I say, therefore, that the real test is not the vague assurance that the Dominions raised no objection. In a matter of so much importance that will not do. What we want to know is whether they signified approval, and whether they signified that they undertook this obligation on behalf of their Dominions. Without that information I submit that the House should not proceed with the Second Reading of this Bill.
I would like to deal with certain objections which have been raised to the criticisms which we have made upon this Convention. The right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) took the line that the guarantee was not a very serious one. As far as I understood him, he said that it was only a part of the general guarantee by which we are bound under the Covenant of the League of Nations, and that there was nothing very serious in its character. I reply to that, that the general guarantee under the League of Nations was, in point of fact, what was offered to the Turks at Lausanne, and that the Turks would not accept it as adequate, and that the Four-Power Guarantee was then offered to the Turks as something more precise and binding than the general guarantee under the League of Nations. How, then, can the right hon. Gentleman say that there is nothing in this special guarantee more binding and more important than the general guarantee under the League?
I did not mean to say that. There was the general guarantee under the League, and the supplementary guarantee on the lines of the guarantee already given in the case of the Aaland Islands.
The right hon. gentleman quotes the case of the Aaland Islands. If he puts forward the Aaland Islands as a precedent I have great difficulty in following him. The Aaland Islands are islands. We can guarantee them, as a naval Power, with the little finger of our left hand. To quote that as a precedent is a remarkable argument. The Four-Power pact was offered as something additional to the general guarantee of the League. What was the phrase which Lord Curzon used? That is what we would be bound by; we shall have the language which our chief representative used at Lausanne quoted as the proper interpretation of the obligation which we have incurred. And quite fairly so. Lord Curzon's language on this point will be found on page 267 of the Lausanne book. In recommending this further guarantee to Ismet Pasha, Lord Curzon said:
What is the next offence in relation to this obligation? It has been said that this is not a several obligation, but is a joint obligation, and that we are not bound to move unless the other Powers move at the same time. Is there any real consolation or security for us in that? Look at the kaleidoscopic character of the grouping of the Powers in the Near East even since the Armistice. The original settlement of Anatolia was guaranteed by the four Allies, and yet in a year the whole face of the Near East has changed. There is no part of the world in which the grouping of the Powers has altered more constantly during the past century. Of one thing I am convinced about our attitude towards this obligation. It is that while other Powers may think lightly of it, while other Powers may be prepared to escape from it in time to come, we shall always feel bound by it, whatever they do. I hope we shall, and I think we shall. What happened in the case of the guarantee which we offered to France in common with the United States? It was not a several guarantee; it was a joint guarantee. Our guarantee lapsed if the United States did not ratify it. The United States did not ratify it, and technically, therefore, we were free. Yet everyone in this country who had devoted any thought to the subject had an uncomfortable feeling that we were not doing the right thing by France. Personally, I never felt relief from that feeling until my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd George) offered the French a. guarantee even better than the guarantee of 1919, at the Cannes Conference, and that guarantee had been refused on behalf of France by M. Poincaré. The same thing would happen in this case. Whatever other people may do, we shall feel bound. Take the guarantee of Belgian neutrality 100 years ago. That was a joint guarantee. Did we feel less bound by it in 1914 because Prussia had broken that guarantee? Not in the least. We felt bound by it.
Therefore, the argument that the guarantee is a join guarantee and not a several guarantee, does not seem to me to relieve us of responsibility or to mitigate its gravity in any respect. Another argument was used by the right hon. Member for Chelsea. He said that peace was unobtainable without contracting this obligation. I reply that, so far as one who reads the proceedings at Lausanne can judge, the Turks never regarded the Straits Convention as in any way an essential part of the peace. They protested against the Straits Convention from beginning to end. What the Turks did was to say, "If you insist on these demilitarised zones, we must have a guarantee." They said, "If you want your part of the Straits Convention, you must give us ours." They did not say that the Straits Convention was a necessary part of the peace. On the contrary, they were quite prepared to dispense with the whole thing, and we could have had the Peace Treaty of Lausanne perfectly well without the Straits Convention, had we chosen to do so. I do not think that I need quote Ismet Pasha's language about the Straits Convention. His last remarks were directed to prove the great sacrifice which Turkey had made in accepting the Straits Convention.
I do not think, therefore, it can reasonably be argued that we should not have had peace without accepting this obligation. All that can be argued is that we should not have had the Straits Convention without accepting this obligation. That is another matter altogether. We could have had peace without this obligation, and the two things should not be confused. People say, "If we did not incur this obligation, we should have lost the freedom of the Straits, and look what a sacrifice that would be." What is the freedom of the Straits? It is a phrase used in many different senses. Let us be clear as to what it means. There is, I agree, enormous importance to a great sea-trading power in freedom of passage through these Straits. The Black Sea is at the present moment a great trading centre and it will become more important, because that part of Europe is probably the part which will first recover and will require our goods before any other part. Not only that, but the Rhine and the Danube are being canalised and, within the next few years, vessels of 5,000 tons burden will be able to go right into the heart of Europe. As the Rumanian representative at the Lausanne Conference very properly said, the true mouth of the Danube is not the actual geographical mouth, but is at the Dardanelles. Therefore, the freedom of the Straits is of enormous importance to a sea-trading Power. But what is freedom in the sense in which we require it? Surely it means freedom to pass through the Straits at any time, whoever may be at war. That is the only sense in which freedom is worth having. It means that this narrow strip of water connecting the Black Sea with the Mediterranean should be open water and should always be open water. That is the only sense in which the freedom of the Straits is worth while, and so long as any power, but particularly a Power like Turkey, is placed upon the Straits and is made a porter at the gateway of the Straits, so long absolute freedom and real freedom must be wanting.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs made an effort to get freedom of the Straits in the only sense in which it is really worth our while guaranteeing it. He endeavoured to get a guarantee of freedom by which Gallipoli, Chanak, Constantinople and Scutari were made part of an international zone under international control. That was the beginning of the negotiations and it is the only form in which freedom of the Straits is worth guaranteeing by this country. I need not go back upon the history of the past, but that proved impossible. What I do say is that the freedom of the Straits, as defined in the Convention, is not worth the obligation which we have incurred. What has happened? Turkey is back in Constantinople, and we cannot have freedom of the Straits without the guarantee of her pact. We are absolutely bound to respect Turkey's right to close the Straits if Turkey goes to war. Once again, everything depends upon what Turkey does, and Turkey must become a pawn in the diplomatic game because of the great importance of her position at the Straits. It is not worth paying a heavy price for that freedom. It is certainly not worth the obligation we have incurred, and as for the value to be derived from the demilitarised zone, there is not a sailor or a soldier of any account in this country who attaches the slightest importance to it. Turkey, then, is re-established as the porter at the gate of the Straits. The Straits will be barred when Turkey is at war. Freedom in such circumstances is largely nominal. If we could only get freedom in this form, if we could only get a Straits convention negotiated on these terms, I say we should have stood side by side with the United States in the policy enunciated at Lausanne by their representative. Mr. Child, on behalf of the United States, expressed what seems to me to be the true policy on this subject. He said it was against the interests of the world that any Power should be able to close the Straits, merely on account of the geographical accident of having its capital there, and he concluded with these words: 1914 the Turkish area in Europe was 10,000 square miles and the population 1,800,000.
That illustrates in a very graphic way the secular process which has been driving Turkey out of Europe. Who can say that the process is at an end? Who can guarantee, if it is not at an end, that it is going to be carried on in the future by peaceable means? I say that a guarantee of the status quo at the Straits and Constantinople is one of the most dangerous obligations which this country could possibly have incurred. I understand that the Prime Minister is to speak later on in this Debate, and I am sure he will make a strong plea for the Second Reading of this Bill. He may plead that he should get it to-night, and no doubt he will be able to advance very strong arguments based upon the inconvenience of any delay in ratifying this Treaty, and upon the difficulties which may be caused thereby, and I have no doubt he will make a powerful and eloquent case. I would say this to him. The argument from convenience is very strong, but is it really an answer to the argument from principle, on an issue of this importance? No one has spoken more eloquently than he against pledging the people of this or any country, blindfold, be commitments which they cannot afterwards revise. Does he believe that the people of this country at the present moment fully understand the obligation which this Straits Convention entails? Does he believe the people of the Dominions fully understand it? If he does not, on what ground can he ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading without absolutely full information and absolutely full debate? We are here not only as representatives of the country but as trustees of the Empire, and we ought to know definitely that the peoples whom we are committing know to what they are being committed. There is a great principle at stake, and the argument of convenience is no answer.
Let me point to another fact which, as it seems to me, is bound to influence very seriously the attitude of the Dominions towards this settlement. They will look, as they always look, to the Treaty which has been secured by the United States, and there are one or two interesting features in that Treaty. In the first place, the United States have managed to secure a time limit of quite a short period of years, as to the greater number of these provisions. That will prove a very important element, but as it does not particularly relate to the argument, I will not dwell upon it. What is much more important is that the United States, under a most-favoured nation Clause, has secured most of the advantages, such as they are, which we secure in the Straits without incurring an obligation of any kind. Who fought the hardest for the freedom of the Straits—the British Empire or the United States? Our casualties in the Eastern theatre, in dead alone, amounted to nearly 100,000. We spent millions there. Are we to be told now that we are entitled to a settlement actually less favourable than that secured by the United States, which never spent a dollar there and never sent a man? That is a point to which the Dominions will give great attention, and it is bound to influence their attitude towards this Treaty and this Convention.
6.0 P.M.
I also ask the House to consider the effect of ratifying this guarantee upon our policy in other parts of Europe. This is something more than a general guarantee under the League. It is a four-Power guarantee inside, but additional to the general guarantee of the League, and therefore similar to other forms of special guarantee which are being discussed in Europe at the present time. The question of these special guarantees is going to be raised in a very critical form when the Treaty of Mutual Security associated with the name of Lord Cecil comes to be discussed in this House. The Prime Minister came down to the House two or three days ago and declared himself absolutely opposed to any special guarantee to France. Is he going to give a guarantee to Turkey when he refuses a guarantee to France? I agree with the Prime Minister that we should keep clear of all special guarantees of this kind, but if we are going to give such guarantees, I would infinitely rather—a million times rather—give a guarantee to France who fought with us, than give a guarantee to Turkey who fought against us. If once this principle is conceded in the case of Turkey, what ground have we to stand on when we refuse it in the case of other more important and more friendly Powers who were actually our Allies in the War? Let us see to what this policy of special guarantees and special pacts leads. I have already pointed to the similarity which exists in one respect with the pact which we offered to France in 1919. That pact gives an interesting indication of the way in which these special guarantees affect democratic opinion in the British Empire at the present time. That pact, it is true, came to nothing because the United States would not ratify it, but the United States was not the only Power which did not ratify it, and that is not generally recognised or remembered in this country. Canada did not ratify that guarantee. South Africa did not ratify it, and the action of Canada and South Africa in that respect was, in my belief, the writing on the wall, and it is very dangerous to minimise its significance. As it happens, I have had the good fortune to travel right through the Dominions since the Armistice. I claim no special authority on that account, and no doubt any other Member of this House would have made much better use of the opportunity than I have, but since I have, as a matter of fact, been in close contact with all kinds of opinion in the Dominions since the Armistice, I would ask the leave of the House to give them one impression which I derived in overwhelming force from most of the thoughtful people to whom I spoke during those travels. When the statesmen of the world met in Paris in 1919 to negotiate peace, they acted in the belief that the new world could be bound over to guarantee a settlement and a status quo in the old world. That was the whole principle of the settlement. That principle was laid down at the start by President Wilson, and was naturally accepted by all the other European statesmen, and it was also a principle to which the representatives of the Dominions gave full adherence at that time. But what happened? It was a generous vision, but it proved to be too good for human nature's daily food, and, in point of fact, it broke down. The United States refused to back a peace upon those lines, and so did two of the greatest of our Dominions. That has been the source of most of our troubles ever since, and my experience in the Dominions is that opinion against guarantees and pacts of this kind, so far from weakening, is gaining strength every day.
There is a definite example of it in the Amendment to Article 10 of the Covenant of the League of Nations for which Canada, has been pressing for the last three years. It is true that at the last meeting of the Assembly at Geneva she failed to carry the Amendment for which she asked, because, I believe, Persia resisted it, but she obtained a Declaration or Resolution amounting to much the same thing, a Declaration which frees her from all obligations under Article 10 unless the action is of a kind approved by her Government and her Parliament. That is the whole tendency of opinion in the Dominions at the present time—to keep clear of commitments, obligations and guarantees of this kind. Other people may have different impressions, but I have gathered that impression very strongly throughout the last three or four years. That does not mean—and it is very important to be clear upon this point—that the Dominions do not want this Empire to play its part in the settlement of Europe. They realise the vast importance of Europe to them and to the whole world, and they certainly wish us to play our part in getting a European settlement, but not on the basis of committing ourselves to obligations over a long period of years, obligations the effect of which, in the present state of the world, nobody can calculate for even a short period of years, much less for a long period. They would like a sane and steady opportunism, using our influence for peace as circumstances suggest every year, but with absolute freedom from commitments in the future in any form.
That, I believe, is the general tendency of opinion in the Dominions. What is happening here? There is a contrary tendency in this country. There is in many quarters a belief that peace can be secured only if we do enter into these special guarantees. This Straits Convention is an example of this, and it therefore raises the whole question. Another example, to which I have just referred, is Lord Cecil's Treaty of Mutual Guarantees, which would divide the world into geographical areas and would commit Britain to obligations which the rest of the Empire would not share. Let me give one other example—and it is one in regard to which, as it happens, I differ from my own friends around me—the example of the withdrawal from the naval base at Singapore. To Australia and other Dominions that must be taken as a certain tendency to withdraw from distant obligations and to commit ourselves more to the study of the European situation, and how is that withdrawal of ours from the Singapore base going to affect opinion in Australia on this Convention? They will say, "Here you are, renouncing, at any rate for the time being, obligations in the Pacific which were meticulously discussed and solemnly confirmed at three great Conferences, and on the top of that you come to us and ask us to ratify obligations in Europe. What form of Imperial co-operation is this?"
That, it seems to me, is the inevitable standpoint from which Australia will approach this question. What is happening at the present time is a definite drift of opinion in two ways. This country is becoming more concentrated on Europe—this Straits Convention is an example—and the Dominions, on the other hand, are moving the other way, away from obligations and commitments of any kind. I venture to say that that is a very dangerous tendency, and it is because I believe that that tendency is fundamentally dangerous to the unity of the Empire that I have put down my Amendment. With my hon. Friends around me, I believe that this obligation should not be contracted by this country, unless it is absolutely clear that it is accepted on their own behalf by the representatives of the Dominions. That, I believe, is the only policy which is safe from the point of view of preserving the unity of the British Empire.
I beg to second the Amendment.
In his exceedingly cogent and solidly founded speech, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham (Sir E Grigg) has, with admirable results, concentrated all his attention and the attention of the House upon the immediate point of the obligations which we incur under Article 18 of the Straits Convention. I want, if I may, for a few moments to try to view these obligations under Article 18 in their relation to the Treaty as a whole. The Treaty, by common agreement of all parts of the House, is an unsatisfactory Treaty, but the mere fact that the Treaty is unsatisfactory is not a sufficient reason for not ratifying it, since it must be a very bad Treaty that is not better than a state of war; but I submit that the unsatisfactoriness of this Treaty is of so profound a nature than any person who seriously studies its Articles and provisions must come to the conclusion that it cannot be a permanent solution of the problems with which it deals. It cannot be a permanent and lasting solution, but, on the contrary, at one point after another in its course it must seem to many students to present evidence of containing the seeds of future war. Even the fact that it was not a permanent settlement would not be a reason for refusing ratification, but if we take that fact in conjunction with the fact that we are being asked to guarantee, in perpetuity, without limitation of time, what I may describe as one of the pivotal points of this unsatisfactory and impermanent solution, I think we may reasonably say that we are being asked to do an extraordinarily dangerous thing, to give a permanent guarantee, by force of arms, if need be, in perpuity, to something that is the keystone of a structure in itself inevitably unstable and uncertain.
It is from that point of view that I want very briefly to touch upon the broad features of the Treaty, in order to bring out the elements of insecurity and instability that there exist. In the first place, my right hon. Friend the Member for the Combined Universities (Mr. Fisher) has shown us that there are difficulties in regard to the withdrawal of the capitulations. We all feel that security of law and jurisdiction is indispensable for the development of trade—we are experiencing that difficulty in Russia to-day—and we all feel a real hesitation as to whether that security will be able to be given by Turkey, with the best will in the world, after the upheaval of the past few years, for a long time to come. It is not merely because the withdrawal of that capitulations system is going to place difficulties in the way of trade that I feel it to be dangerous. On that account alone, there is no ground for objection—we have to put up with these evils—but it must necessarily bring about continual friction with the western trading Powers that deal with Turkey, and, therefore, the withdrawal of the capitulations is a source of instability and uncertainty in the whole peace settlement.
Then, again, there is the question of the Christian peoples, with which also my right hon. Friend has dealt, because, as he has said, there are paper guarantees, in themselves more or less satisfactory, about the solidarity and security of which I imagine no one in this House feels any real confidence, but let us suppose that these paper guarantees are adequately fulfilled, that the League of Nations, which is as yet not as strong as we hope it will become, is able effectively to enforce them, it still remains true that in the East and North East of Asia Minor you have the remnants—but they will grow again—of a people who have passed through such sufferings as leave an indelible mark on a race memory. That is a permanent source of insecurity, and you have that element, that population, occupying a distinctive area, in a region of the Turkish Dominions near by, the ancient and secular rival of Turkey, which will one day revive. You have the Greeks also, in the Vilayet of Smyrna, looking across towards Greece in Europe. The position of the Christian peoples in Turkey, even supposing the paper guarantees are adequate, is very apt to be a source of disturbance and insecurity in the future, because you have reproduced precisely the same kind of circumstances that brought about the repeated interventions of Russia in the Balkan Peninsula in the past.
In the third place, we have Turkey planted still on European soil, controlling Thrace, with its mixed population of Bulgarians and Greeks as well as of Turks, controlling the City of Constantinople, which has been for centuries the object of Russian dreams, and the Russian dreams will revive, as Russia most certainly will revive. There, in the mere presence of Turkey on European soil, is a danger of the future. Turkey would have been well advised if she could have been compelled to devote herself to building up a real national state in the true national home of the Turkish people in Anatolia. Fourthly, we have the Straits; that is to say, we have the Turks placed in control of that most critical of all water channels on the face of the globe, in control of a water channel which presents the only access to open waters in Europe now possessed by Russia, in effect, and the only access possessed by Armenia and Bulgaria. Turkey is not controlled, for the freedom of the Straits, freedom of transit in time of peace, of course, existed in the past. Freedom of transit for warships in time of peace, when Turkey is at peace, is, perhaps, something on which the negotiators can pride themselves, but scarcely can look upon as a great contribution towards the maintenance of peace.
But the sole point is that, in spite of all the safeguards this Treaty introduces, Turkey remains in possession of the key, able to close the Straits, and specifically recognised as being able to close the Straits, in the event of war. The mere fact that Turkey remains in possession of that power, must be a source of difficulty and disturbance to the great States, and those that will become great in the future, certainly Rumania, whose only outlet by sea is by way of those Straits. Turkey can close the Straits when she is at war. She can let in her friends; she can keep out her enemies. And this is what, in effect, we are going to guarantee. We are going to guarantee the maintenance of the demilitarised zones. That means the maintenance of the system of control that this Treaty has set up. In that, we are guaranteeing also the position of Turkey in Europe. We are guaranteeing the whole of the key position, and we are guaranteeing it in perpetuity.
I want to suggest the kind of danger that I myself seem to see, not as a distant vision, but as a real, possible, even probable, danger of the future. I can conceive a revived Russia of 50 or 100 years hence—there is no limitation of time to this obligation we propose to assume—deeply moved by sympathy with the Armenians, not merely with oppressions and breaches of the regulations for the protection of minorities, but deeply sympathising with a nationalist movement for independence among the Armenians, and pressed on by that to hostility towards the Turks. I can imagine the question being discussed by the League of Nations, and I can imagine no solution being arrived at by the League of Nations, under League of Nations' procedure. And I can imagine, in consequence, even after the League of Nations' procedure has been followed, a war seriously threatening on such an issue. Russia knows that, once war begins, control over the Straits will be used by Turkey—the Straits will be closed. The temptation to make a sudden stroke to seize the Straits is so enormous, that it is almost inevitable that she should fall to it, and then, as it would appear, automatically and necessarily we, and the other guaranteeing powers, would be drawn in, and committed to participation in a war with a great revived Russia, which might have formidable naval power in the Pacific. And when we are at war, all the Dominions are at war.
We are told it is a safeguard that the guarantee is a joint guarantee, and not a separate guarantee. That is one of the features of this guarantee that seems to me to be most profoundly objectionable, for if a State has a chance of declining to be drawn in or using some loophole of escape, there will be infinite difficulty, endless discussion, and moral discomfort. I look back, not in personal memory, but in historical memory, to the discussions that took place about the joint guarantee for Belgium in 1870, to discussions about the question whether we were really bound to come to the aid of Belgium in the event of a breach of neutrality or not, and I am bound to say, when I have read the records of those discussions in 1870, I have felt a profound sense of shame, or, at any rate, of regret, that this nation should have involved itself in a guarantee so indefinite, in an obligation so ill defined. As my hon. and gallant Friend has very admirably demonstrated, we are entering upon a new period of foreign relations, in which our very peculiar, and, indeed, unique position, needs to be more carefully thought out and studied. We recognise to-day that we are more intimately a part of Europe than we ever have been, that, indeed, we are part of the Continent of Europe. We recognise that we are responsible in the fullest degree for paying our full share in making and maintaining the peace of Europe; but, at the same time, we have our peculiar and unshared responsibilities towards the Dominions.
In regard to that double relationship, it seems to me the most obvious thing in the world that the two very first principles of our foreign policy must be these: first of all, that we must never, in any circumstances, undertake an obligation that is not precise, clearly-defined and measurable, so that we know where we are, and this obligation entirely defies and defeats that principle. The second principle which ought always to govern our action is that, seeing we not merely desire to draw upon the strength of our Dominions, but seeing we are responsible for involving, or not involving, them in war without their own act, so long as they remain members of the British Commonwealth, it is our absolute duty to make utterly sure that the Dominions have fully recognised the consequences of any commitment that we undertake, and, deliberately and consciously, and with clear knowledge of what the ultimate results may be, have decided to join with us in such obligation before we undertake it, even on our own behalf. It is because it seems to me that this Convention, or this Clause of the Convention, which is regarded as the pivot, or one of the pivots of the whole Treaty, lands us in obligations which defeat both of these fundamental principles, that I beg to second the Amendment.
I rise for the purpose of opposing this Amendment, and I will, at the very outset, read to the House—because it has not been read to the House—what Article 18 says, because, really, the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is very wide indeed of what is contained in Article 18 of the Convention, namely:
"The high contracting parties, desiring to secure that the demilitarisation of the Straits and of the contiguous zones shall not constitute an unjustifiable danger to the military security of Turkey, and that no act of war should imperil the freedom of the Straits or the safety of the demilitarised zones, agree as follows:
Should the freedom of navigation of the Straits or the security of the demilitarised zones be imperilled by a violation of the provisions relating to freedom of passage, or by a surprise attack or some act of war or threat of war, the high contracting parties, and in any case France, Great Britain, Italy and Japan, acting in conjunction, will meet such violation, attack, or other act of war or threat of war, by all the means that the Council of the League of Nations may decide for this purpose."
That is the guarantee that is being called in question this afternoon. That is the one part of this Straits Convention which is being met by hon. Members of the Liberal party—[An HON. MEMBER: "Some of them."]—by very responsible and respected leaders of the party, as a ground for holding up the ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne, with all the possible consequences that that may mean to the foreign situation. May I, in the first place, point out to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham (Sir E. Grigg) that he was quite wrong when he described this as a guarantee to Turkey? He said, "If you are going to give guarantees to any country, I would like you to give a guarantee to France." This is not a guarantee to Turkey. This is a guarantee to maintain the demilitarisation of the zones. It is a guarantee to ensure that there shall be no fortification of the zones, that there shall be real freedom of the Straits, and we wanted that, and not Turkey. It is a guarantee to ourselves, and not to Turkey.
I quoted Lord Curzon that it was a guarantee to Turkey. I quoted his own words.
I read this as a guarantee to ensure something for which Turkey did not ask. Turkey would like to fortify the Straits. Turkey did not want a demilitarised zone and freedom of the Straits, but it was the one thing about which the hon. and gallant Member's leader has made speech after speech in this House ever since 1918. Whenever he spoke on this question, it was always "the freedom of the Straits." It was always, "We will not have the gate shut in our face," with the endless perorations of the usual kind about the freedom of the Straits. That was the Lloyd-Georgian policy, and now, because Lord Curzon, at Lausanne, induced the Turks to agree to a very significant and remarkable derogation from their sovereign rights; induced a victorious Turkey who had beaten Greece at the conclusion of the recent War; induced them, for the sake of peace, for the sake of everything for which the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) expressed a hope, to agree to a demilitarised zone and the freedom of the Straits, is it not only fair that the Turks should have some security that Bolshevik Russia, or any other Russia, should not raid the Straits with impunity, land forces on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and occupy that Peninsula, without anybody going to the aid of Turkey? Not only that, but the Turks agreed to a limitation of their military forces in Europe. They are not only at the mercy, without a guarantee, of a present Russia or a revived Russia, but of the Greek forces, or the Jugo-Slav forces, the Bulgarian, or the Rumanian forces. If you are going to secure a demilitarised Straits and zone. if you are going to have no forts in that narrow seaway, you have got to give the Power that is controlling these Straits with her limited military forces an international guarantee against a surprise attack or anything of that kind. The guarantee we give her is this: If she is so attacked, or an act of war is committed, all the high contracting parties, and the four great Naval Powers in particular in conjunction will take any means which the Council of the League of Nations may decide for that purpose.
I always thought that hon. Members below the Gangway were so anxious that these questions should be not left to the Powers, or left to Governments, but left to the Council of the League; that they were anxious that the League should be the instrument used for these purposes. Here you have in this an effective instrument, a deciding instrument. The character of the guarantee is limited and controlled by the League of Nations. I agree we are in a very odd situation. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in introducing this Treaty, comes down to the House and says not a word about the Treaty, not a word about the Straits Convention, not a word about the foreign policy of the Government, not a word about their attitude to Turkey. He says: "It is for you, the Opposition, to defend the Treaty; it is for you to defend the Treaty when it is attacked by hon. Members below the Gangway. We are going to tell you nothing about policy, but to tell you what the Union of Democratic Control has achieved in the way of the future relations of the House of Commons to these questions, and to things in general." Either this is the Americanisation of the British Constitution, as the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway thinks, or else it is really nothing more than the continuance of the practice of the last few years—and I am inclined to think it is the latter. But it is rather astonishing when he introduces into his speech all this palaver about democratic control of the House of Commons, and that we should have in a Debate on the policy of the Government and the ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne nothing told us about the Government's policy and nothing about the Treaty of Lausanne! That is the way in which the Union of Democratic Control, represented by one of its most distinguished members now at the Foreign Office, is going to help the House of Commons to acquire an interest in foreign affairs, and in important foreign questions of the day!
The real question which we have to decide is not really this question of the Straits Convention—I shall have to turn to it again—which we obtained very largely, I have no doubt, through Lord Curzon—and we remember his long period as a colleague of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), to whom this matter was so important—but the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards the Turkish Republic and the Government of Angora; their intention under the Treaty of Lausanne when it is ratified—and the sooner it is ratified the better—and how far they will, under the conditions of the Treaty of Lausanne, use their influence to restore really amicable relations with Turkey, and get an opportunity such as I believe no other nation has at this present moment of playing a very important role in the future of the Near East, and the future of Turkey. It will necessitate a bold re-orientation of attitude from the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochdale (Mr. R. Muir). If you will always think of Turkey as a potential maker of massacres, of somebody who is always to be mistrusted, you generally secure that the atrocities are committed. I am perfectly certain of this, that if you are always looking back to the reign of Abdul Hamid, always looking back to the past Government of Turkey, if you are always going to assume—as did the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down—that the same causes are going to operate, and the same circumstances to exist in the new Turkey as in the old, then you are committed to a whole series of wars, a whole series of massacres and a whole series of bloodshed and misery. If, on the other hand, you seize this golden opportunity given to the nations of Western Europe as a result of the action particularly of Sir Charles Harington, and Sir Horace Rumbold—to mention two particular individuals—and the conduct of the British Army in Constantinople during the whole period of occupation, the Turk has still got a feeling for this country and its representatives that he has for the representatives of few other countries—I put it like that—I believe we can play a very helpful role.
But if we are going to do it, we must scrap the Embassy at Constantinople at once, and remove it to Angora. Constantinople is not going to be the capital of Turkey. Angora is going to remain the capital of Turkey. I do not believe the Turk is going to retire from Europe or European affairs, especially now that the Caliphate is abolished, especially now that the Sultanate is abolished. Now that these breaches have been made with the Turkey of the past, she is going to be an intensely nationalist Anatolian republic. If we would have influence in that new Turkey, that influence must be applied in Angora, not in Constantinople. I quite agree that Mr. Lindsay will have a very uncomfortable time for a while, if he is going to Angora, in view of the inadequacy of its amenities, as a great many of the Turkish deputies have found, and no doubt it will require some supplementary Estimate. I note the Financial Secretary to the Treasry is present, and perhaps it is just as well to mention it, seeing matters must begin at the Treasury, that a new Embassy is really vital, if you are going to do anything for the Armenians.
May I say this, as the word "Armenian" has been mentioned? The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, said that Russia may in the future have just the same aspirations for Constantinople and take action based on just the old kind of excuses for intervening, namely, sympathy for the Armenian nationalists in Turkey. But there will always be Armenians in Turkey. There will always be Armenians in practically every town in Turkey. The Erivan Republic, I hope, will continue to exist and be a little enlarged; and if there are schemes proposed by the Council of the League, and we can do anything to help, and I understand France has offered to contribute, I hope we shall do the same, and if that can be done and a national home surrounding the Erivan nucleus can be formed, well and good. But always the Armenians will exist in small numbers throughout the Turkish towns. Why? Because the Armenian is so necessary to Turkey. He is the business man, the money lender, the gombeenman, and anything of the kind you like to call him. He is essential to the life of almost every Turk. I do not believe that what we have to see to in the question of minorities is the segregation of the Armenians into a particular area, and the creation of a new Armenian State, either in Silesia or even in Van.
That is not what we have got to do. We have to make clear to Turkey that we believe that when she said at Lausanne: "We will carry out the provisions of the minority Clauses similarly to those carried out by other European countries," we do best to take her word, to improve the machinery of the League of Nations and watch how the minority Clauses in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Serbia, and everywhere where there are these minority Clauses, are carried out, and then, and then only, will Turkey be prepared to make them equally effective. I believe they can be made effective. The essential thing, quite as important as the minority Clauses which Turkey has accepted on the basis that other countries accepted, the essential thing is to have consular officers, and British traders, and private persons in Turkey, because many a time has trouble been stopped by the presence of one Englishman or one Englishwoman in the disturbed area. That is an enormous advantage. Remember, in the Near East these national antagonisms and massacres are followed by recriminations and mutual massacres. They have gone on for centuries. It will take time to wipe out the memories.
After all, what is the thing for the new Turkey to do? I am told when you go in the train from Scutari, opposite Constantinople, that long slow journey to Angora, you pass through a country devastated by the Greeks in their advance. That story I agree has been repeated on the other side by the Turks, and the only chance of the future is stability. When the hon. Member for Rochdale said that this Treaty of Lausanne has no stability in it he is saying a thing which is very unkind to all the persons concerned, to the Christian people in Turkey, for the one chance is some stability. At least we can say this: that this Treaty will be more stable than the Treaty of Sèvres, if not more stable than the other Peace Treaties. I profoundly hope it will be so. This is a Treaty of Peace, I agree, between the victorious Allied Power and a defeated Turkey, but a Turkey which in turn has become a victorious Power, and it is not inconceivable that history will find out that this Treaty of Lausanne is both a fairer, juster, and a more permanent Treaty than the others. One point was also referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher) who made a very strenuous attack upon the Turkish system of law. He made what I think was the astounding statement that commercial law in Turkey was bound up with or based upon the koran, but it is nothing of the kind. The religious law of the Mahommedan world is really a personal law and does not come into contact with the general law of the country. As a matter of fact, the Turkish code of laws is an extremely fine code. The difficulty in the past has been the apparently ineradicable corruption of the Turkish courts when almost anybody by the judicious exercise of the distribution of the wherewithal could obtain a verdict both in civil and criminal cases. I have some hope that this new Government, militarist and secularist though it be, and creating every day more and more prejudices, will be rather different from the Turkish Government we have known under the Ottoman Sovereign.
The revolution effected in the last few weeks by Turkey is one of the most striking that has ever taken place. Who would have ever dreamt that Turkey, which to everybody's mind was bound up with the prestige of the Ottoman Power and with the position of the Caliph and the spiritual head, and the representatives of the Turkish people, would have exiled and driven out the whole House of Othman, and got rid of all religious connection with that power, and would have gone in for a purely secular State? I think the news of the last few weeks must have been a very severe disappointment to every Liberal Statesman who has dabbled in Turkish politics, including the Right Hon. Edward Montagu, whose attacks, both public and private, on the Treaty and his differences with his leader, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), were due to his love of the Othman House and the championship of the Caliphate in India. I agree that Mr. Montagu did take a great part in saving Turkey in Europe, but, of course, what really destroyed the Treaty of Sevres, and made peace impossible in 1919, 1920 or 1921, and resulted eventually in the Treaty of Lausanne, for which we are very thankful, what really has produced this was the fatal decision of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs to send the Greeks to Smyrna in 1915.
Supported by you.
No, it was opposed by me in speech after speech in this House. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was the decision of the Paris Peace Conference."] It was common knowledge that the whole of the Greek policy was the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and the Greek expansion was the policy of one man in Europe, and that was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs who led the Greeks to their doom. He encouraged this policy by urging them to go on, and he declared that the Turks were a declining nation and the Greeks were an ascending nation.
Let us ratify this Treaty, and let us do it as speedily as we can in order to make it quite clear to the Turks that where we have undertaken obligations in return for considerations given to us under Article 18, we are going to act honourably up to those obligations, and that we mean to stand by everything we have put into the Treaty. Let us use our influence in the new Turkey to help them to develop a better and a new life. Let us cut ourselves clear of all parties, and then we shall have better treatment of minorities. An early ratification of this Treaty is urgent because of the Mosul Frontier. We require a good settlement because the sooner we can leave Iraq the sooner we can be relieved of all expense and responsibility in connection with that country. We are honourably bound to the Arabs and to the people of Iraq to ensure them a fair frontage, and I hope the Conference that is to take place in Constantinople where Sir Percy Cox is representing the British Government will arrive at an early and an amicable settlement of the Mosul Frontier.
There is only one other question I would like to ask the Prime Minister, and it is that, while he is supervising and conduct- ing these negotiations, he will have a warm spot for the Assyrians. They are the smallest of those minorities, but they are the most valuable and they stood by us in the War better than anybody else. Their geographical position is most acute, because they live in a corner of Persia, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will secure a square deal for this email community. They told me while I was at the Colonial Office what their position was, and they deserve to be given a chance. I hope they will not be let down, as too many of these minorities have been let down in the Near East. There are so many questions I would like to raise in connection with this vitally important Treaty and so many other hon. Members desire to speak, that I hope we shall have more time given to discuss these matters either on the Third Reading or on some other occasion, because peace with Turkey is quite as important to the British Empire and the relations between Turkey and this country as between any country in Europe.
The Turk is in a unique geographical position. Our interests have for the last 40 years been intimately bound up with the Eastern question, and no other question has such far-reaching significance to the Empire and to this country as our relations with the Turkish Parliament and the neighbouring countries. Therefore when the Prime Minister comes to reply I hope he will defend this Treaty like a man, and ratify it, and do his best to make sure of real friendship between Turkey and this country in the future, and thereby make all the lamentable things that have happened in the past impossible in the future.
I rise whole-heartedly to support the ratification of this Treaty, and I agree with everything that has been said about it by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. I agree with him that this Treaty should be used as an occasion to open up an entirely new era in our relations with the Turks. For the last 50 years or more the policy of this country in connection with the Turks has been based on religious prejudices and fanaticism, and most of the troubles that have arisen in all parts of the world have been due to the interference of outsiders in this way. First of all we had Russia interfering with Turkey for purely political reasons, and using the Armenians as pawns in the game to enable her to advance on Constantinople. When massacres occurred they were usually instigated by the Russians in this way, and then Mr. Gladstone and the Liberals jumped in, and assumed that these massacres occurred because the people attacked were Christians, and the policy of the Liberals has always been to proceed on that assumption.
During the last 50 or 60 years there have been two traditions in dealing with the Turks, the tradition of Disraeli and the tradition of Gladstone. I have had a great experience of that part of the world, and I believe that the tradition associated with the name of Disraeli was absolutely sound, while that associated with Gladstone was deplorable for the people whom we thought we were assisting, and deplorable for this country. If you wish to understand this question thoroughly you must closely examine it yourself on the spot, and then you will see what is the cause of all these troubles. It is the fact that for the lost 400 years the Turks have treated these minorities better than you have treated minorities in this country. There must be some underlying causes for these troubles and one of those causes is using these Armenian people as pawns by the Russians. If you can only get rid of that cause and leave these people alone with the Turks, they will get on with them as they have done in the past.
If you will follow the sequence of events from the start of the War, hon. Members will agree that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) hit the nail on the head, as far as this Treaty is concerned, when he said that we shall have to accept it because we have no option, and the reason is our own fault and the action of the Allies under the influence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon. A great deal of prejudice was introduced against the Turks because they entered the War against us, and for that they are accused of treachery and all that sort of things, but if you examine what actually occurred, you will find that, more or less, the Turks were forced into the opposite camp by our action. It is all very well to be wise after the event, but one can see that the hereditary enemy of the Turk was Russia, and Turkey had always relied on us to defend her. When we formed a new Russian Entente, Turkey had to find another friend, and so she went to Germany. There was no treachery of any kind in Turkey going into the War, and she did so because she considered it was to her interests to do so.
7.0. P.M.
There is no doubt the Turks fought the War as fairly as any other country, and probably more fairly than most people give her credit for. After the War we come down to January, 1918, when the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs made a speech at the Caxton or the Central Hall, Westminster, in which he gave forth to the world the considered opinion of this country as to our war aims. It was the definite, considered opinion of the Cabinet, after consultation with the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), Earl Grey, the Labour leaders, and such representatives of the Empire as were in this country at that time. In fact, he definitely said that we were not fighting to drive the Turks out of Thrace, Constantinople, or his own lands in Asia Minor, and he amplified that further on in his speech. There was no doubt it was taken as a very definite promise. A few years later in this House he repeated that promise and said it was meant as a promise to the Indian Mahommedans. What occurred? Having got Turkey down and out, we proceeded to kick him and went back on our word. There is no doubt about that. In May, 1919, in pursuance of a policy instigated by a gang of international financiers, etc., and under the shelter of our Fleet, we allowed the mixed bands in Asia Minor to pursue a purely imperialistic policy. They landed under the shadow of our guns, and they started massacring the moment they landed. They continued those massacres more or less up to 1922, when they were driven helter-skelter out of Asia Minor. Then the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs made an attempt to raise another crusade. I must put the blame on the Opposition, because they were associated with him and allowed him to dominate, them. I give them the credit, however, that they afterwards did break him and reverted to the Disraeli tradition. It was a great pity they did not do it before.
When we met the Turks at Lausanne, far from being the victors, we had to take the best terms we could get, because there is no doubt this country was not going into any further war, and especially a war where we should have been in the wrong from the start. We got the best terms we could get, and a very great deal of credit is due to Lord Curzon for having been able to get them. I submit that we should most certainly ratify this Treaty as soon as we can. This Treaty should not be regarded merely as an episode. We should try to link it up with the very much larger question of the whole of our relations with Turkey and with the Mahommedan East, and try to put those relations on a better basis.
We cannot separate these negotiations at Lausanne from the very much larger question. Through the recent centuries the whole of our relations with Turkey and with the Mahommedan East have been based on religious fanaticism. I quite admit religious fanaticism has been on the other side too, but for 400 years the Turks were extremely tolerant. When they did start to be intolerant the cause was not in the Turkish nature but the outside interference of other powers. The action taken by the Allies at Smyrna was the culmination of the Gladstonian tradition which looks on the Turk as an infidel and a barbarian and, therefore, not fit to be treated on a level with other civilised nations. I ask the House to bear in mind that at the time when our policy was the best in relation to the Turks it was dictated by a man who was not a Christian. He had a neutral mind in these affairs. At the time, too, when the Coalition Government and the Allies were pursuing this policy at Smyrna two Jews, neutrally-minded men, were doing their best to obviate these difficulties and to get the Allies to withdraw. I refer to Mr. Montagu and Lord Reading. That is the great desideratum in these affairs, namely, to try to put yourselves, religiously, into the most neutral position you possibly can; by that means you will be able to get over most of these difficulties. Until we can as a nation throw off this religious bias I am quite sure that we shall never get on better terms with these people. It is for that reason I support this Treaty. I believe it to be the best under the present circumstances, and it gives us yet another chance to get on good terms with these people.
I rise to make one or two observations from the point of view of one who may claim some small first-hand knowledge of the country with which we are dealing. We have heard some criticism of this Bill this afternoon. We have been told of the things it fails to do and of safeguards which all of us would like to have seen included and which are not included and I do not suppose there is any supporter of this Bill who would attempt to deny the force of that criticism. But I would suggest that, if we are clearly to judge of this Bill, that is the wrong attitude to take up. We should rather try to visualise the position in which our representatives were placed at this Conference. It is perfectly useless for hon. Members below the Gangway to make charges against our representatives for not fulfilling conditions, for not obtaining safeguarding guarantees at Lausanne that never could have been obtained without a resort to arms, which they would have been the first to condemn. The position since the Armistice has been that in all the Treaties negotiated by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs we were the victors. We could in a measure dictate our terms to the vanquished. Further—and very little reference has been made to this point— we were able to work, to a great extent, at any rate, in unity with our Allies.
At Lausanne the tables were turned, and the position was reversed. In the eyes of the Turks we were the vanquished, not from a military point of view, but because, rightly or wrongly, they looked on this country as having sympathised with the aspirations of their enemies. Consequently, they claimed that the defeat of the Greeks was a moral defeat of this country also. Further, as we all know, there was very little unity among the Allies at Lausanne. We had to deal, not with a vanquished enemy, but with the representatives of a nation fresh from a great victory, proud, and justly proud, of the achievements of their armies, and knowing full well that they could only obtain the approval of their countrymen by securing terms which would redound to the credit of their country. I suggest that under those conditions—and that is a true précis of the conditions—it is a matter of the greatest congratulation to our representatives that an agreement of any kind was arrived at, and it is a great tribute to the patience, the tact, the zeal, and the understanding of our representatives at Lausanne.
It is urged that there is not sufficient protection for Christian minorities within the Turkish Dominions in this Bill. That is a very fair criticism, but we know full well that our representatives fought hard to obtain those guarantees. They were not supported however, and consequently were not successful. Another point is important in arriving at a conclusion on this point. What has been the experience of history in these matters of minorities? Have we not over and over again obtained in treaties with Turkish guarantees for the protection of Christian minorities, guarantees which were then deemed adequate, and has there ever been an occasion on which those guarantees have been of the slightest use in defending those minorities? Not one. It is possible to exaggerate the value of those guarantees. We are far more likely to be able to assist those unfortunate minorities by acting as the friends of the Turkish nation on the basis of this Treaty than by producing clauses which would only have been granted, if granted at all, resentfully and in a spirit of bitterness. The Turkish people have ever been resentful, and are resentful to-day, of any attempt by any other country to claim a prescriptive right over any portion of their citizens. We are far more likely to achieve protection for these people by friendly negotiation than by insistence on Clauses in the Treaty.
In conclusion, I should like to say just a few words about the existing conditions in Turkey. I do not suppose that there is anyone who knows that country, or has studied its history, who does not feel great anxiety about the existing conditions there. It is difficult to know whither events are hurrying the Turkish people. They are passing through a period of ultra-nationalism, and it is not to be wondered at that that phase should have come upon them. The Turkish people have always had a strong sentiment of nationality, which has sometimes been overlooked by historians who are apt to exaggerate their religious zeal. At the end of the War the Turkish people found themselves in the greatest danger for their national life. They felt paralysing strangleholds upon their future existence as a nation. Is it to be wondered at that they made a supreme national effort to free themselves, and, that effort having been successful, is it to be wondered at that nationalism reigns in Turkey at this hour? It was nationalism that saved Turkey; it is nationalism that rules Turkey to-day. I believe that as time goes on other influences will prevail, and that a spirit of toleration will make itself felt, and then this country, on the basis of this Treaty, will be able to step in and share in the better relations between the two countries. I believe that it is our duly to foster and build upon such friendship as exists between this country and Turkey to-day. That friendship, I believe, is very much greater than some people seem prepared to admit. This Treaty, whatever its merits or demerits may be, has brought to an end an era which did very little credit to this country, and it has also opened a new era, full, if you will, of doubts and anxieties for the future, but also, I believe, rich in promise of great and increased happiness to come, of more widely and more usefully developed friendly relations between this country and Turkey.
When I read the Treaty of Lausanne, the conclusion to which I was driven was that, after all, there might be something to be said for the principles of some hon. Gentlemen who sit above the Gangway and who are pacifists. I take it that they want to do away with the Army because they think it does not very much matter whether you win a war or not—the result is equally disastrous; and I must say that this Treaty is apt to convert one to that point of view. It cost us millions of money to beat the Turks, we have heard this afternoon that hundreds of thousands of lives were sacrificed, and in the end we are asked to consent to a Treaty which, to say the least of it, is most unsatisfactory. I appended my name to the Amendment moved by my hon, and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham (Sir E. Grigg) because, with him I feel that one particularly important aspect of the Treaty ought to be understood, namely, the liabilities of the Dominions and ourselves under Article 18 of the Straits Convention. It will not escape the House that a principle of the first magnitude is here involved. Are we or are we not to enter into European commitments outside and beyond the League of Nations without, at least, the consent of the Dominions? It is no use saying that somehow the League of Nations is connected with the Treaty; it is no use making out that they are a, kind of stakeholder in the matter. We have the authority of Lord Curzon for saying that this Convention goes beyond the League of Nations itself. No one can deny that, if we enter into obligations of this kind ourselves, the Dominions must be implicated, and, if that is the case, it is surely only elementary honesty to con suit them at the very beginning, when we enter upon negotiations which may affect them so profoundly. It is all very well to say that our representatives were acting for the whole of the Dominions, but, surely, when it became apparent that liabilities of this importance would have to be entered into, they ought to have been consulted at that time
They were. Telegrams were passing between them and the Colonial Office all the time.
The hon. Member must have special information, about which I am sorry he did not tell us more. We have only the published documents which were read by my hon. and gallant Friend, and they give one the impression that the Dominions knew very little indeed, about it. To ask the Dominions to enter into an arrangement of this kind is very much like asking them to sign a blank cheque, and then writing in an amount which we knew to be far beyond their capacity. We are told that the Dominions were consulted. I should like to know whether they were consulted to the same extent as I am quite sure the home Government was consulted. You cannot have it both ways. If this country enters into commitments of this kind alone, it must be prepared to bear the burden alone. If we want the help of the Dominions, we must call for their help and take their advice. Personally, I am not in the least in favour of a policy of splendid isolation. It is most unfortunate for us that we are a European nation. Many may wish that we could get away to a happier and more peaceful climate, but that is not possible, and I hold that we must face our responsibilities as a Continental nation. On the other hand, I am personally persuaded that the people of this country will only intervene to maintain peace. Our power to do good is limited if we enter upon liabilities as a single nation, and do not make absolutely certain that we shall have the backing of the whole Empire in an enterprise of this kind.
Such are our liabilities under the Covenant of the League of Nations. There we have perfectly well defined liabilities under Article 10, which are supported by the Empire as a whole, but the serious point is that the liabilities under Section 18 of this Straits Convention go very far beyond our commitments under Article 10 of the Covenant. There is no doubt about that. Lord Carzon said so, and the Turks appear to have consented to the Treaty on the faith of that statement. One particularly important point which, it appears to me, has not been made in this Debate, is that when Turkey is a member of the League of Nations she herself will get the full benefit under Article 10 which is shared by all the signatories of the Covenant, and, surely, it is accepted by all parties in this, House and by the country that the instrument which we mean to use to maintain peace is the League of Nations, and that we absolutely refuse to use any instrument outside it. I personally am convinced that the Dominions believe this to be our policy, and that they have been prepared to follow our lead in the implicit faith that this was the policy we meant to pursue. If we abandon that policy or seriously modify it, they are entitled to expect that they will be consulted. In objecting to the Convention, I want to make it quite clear that it is the general principle to which I object, and not the actual provisoes as to demilitarised zones. I myself am very much in favour of the policy of a demilitarised zone between France and Germany, but it never occurred to me to advocate such an arrangement except under the specific guarantee of the League of Nations. I can find no parallel, since the League of Nations came into being, for such an arrangement as the one which is advocated by the Straits Convention. The right hon. Gentleman the Member fur Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) spoke of the Aaland Islands, but here the principle is absolutely different. The guarantee we have given in the case of the Aaland Islands we gave as an instrument of the League and under the orders of the League. What we so strongly object to in the Straits Convention is that it is a guarantee outside the League of Nations.
No!
I am quoting Lord Curzon. Speaking of Turkey he said:
I have dealt with some of the general reasons for objecting to the Treaty. I should now like to examine it from a narrower point of view the point of view of our own interests. What are our military liabilities under this Convention? The frontage of the demilitarised zone on the Asiatic side is about 105 miles, and on the European side somewhere about 60 miles, making a total of 165 miles. This House should note that in 1916, during the height of the War, the front we occupied in France was 80 miles, and we held it with 51 infantry and five cavalry divisions. Just compare those figures with the liability we are actually entering on. Then again we of all people ought really to hesitate before we enter into a commitment of this kind, especially in this part of the world. Surely this House has not forgotten Chanak. At Chanak we found ourselves side by side with some Of our friends, under an agreement as definite as this one, and when the crisis came the result was very nearly disastrous to ourselves. I do not want to dwell on what was a very painful incident, but surely it ought not to be forgotten. Then again the Straits Convention is very similar indeed to the agreement contained in the draft Treaty of mutual guarantee. I am not opposed to the principles of that Treaty, although I should very much like to see some features of the regional agreements very much modified, but it seems to me that logically you cannot accept the Straits Convention and then reject the Treaty of Mutual guarantee. If you accept the Straits Convention you bind yourself beforehand to accept the Treaty.
I wonder whether this House is going to be asked to ratify the Treaty of Lausanne on the ground that it has been signed by our Plenipotentiaries. I hope the Government will not advance that policy, because that has always been the argument of secret diplomacy. The present Government ought to be the very last to put forward an argument of this kind, they having been the foremost to attack the methods Of secret diplomacy. There is another point that must not be lost sight of, and that is that in a guarantee of this kind, the fact of some of the guarantors not fulfilling their obligations does not absolve the others. For instance, when Belgium was invaded in 1914, the fact that Prussia was a guarantor and broke her engagement, and that America took no action did not absolve us from our obligations. Further, once you have entered into a positive commitment of this kind, should some of the co-signa- tories of the Convention show signs of weakness this weakness must be made up by others. Perhaps we shall be told the Turks may refuse to ratify the Treaty without the Straits Convention—that they may go on strike. It is most unfortunate for the Government. Last week it was the 'busmen, during the week-end it was nearly the tube men, and now it may be the Turks. But this does not alter the one important fact that the United States have got all the benefits, if benefits there are, under the Treaty of Lausanne without having a single one of the disabilities contained in the Straits Convention, and for this reason I hope the attitude taken up by the Government will be that they will endeavour to obtain for us at least as good conditions as America.
I had hoped we should have the Second Reading of the Bill before the House by a quarter past eight, but I understand there is an agreement that if we do not ask for the Second Reading to-night, we shall get it by a quarter past eight one day next week, probably Wednesday, and that in return for the opportunity for a general debate, the smaller matters will be regarded as having been settled in the large debate, and the various stages of the business required to enable the Government to ratify the Treaty will be given with as little discussion as possible. Under these circumstances I do not propose to ask for the Second Reading to-night. I should have liked very much if hon. Members, while indulging in very proper criticism, had given me some little assistance as to what they propose to do provided they do not ratify this Treaty. I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Fisher), and anyone who reads the last sentence of his speech to-morrow morning will find that all that preceded it was a criticism upon which he could base no constructive and positive guidance to the House or the Government. If one begins to discuss the Treaty, of course there are many things with which we all disagree, assuming, of course, that we, or whoever has drafted the Treaty or was responsible for the making of it, had an absolutely free hand, with no one to negotiate with, but just power to write down in absolute terms what was in his own mind. If that had been the position, Lord Curzon ought to have received the censure of this House. But that was not the position. That was not the situation, and on one ought to be more generous in his criticism of what Lord Curzon was able to do than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities, who shared the responsibility, because the reason why Lord Curzon could not do much of what he tried to do, according to the record of the Debates, was that the policy had been launched and had been carried to an end which deprived him of the power that the Allies had in Paris when they were treating with the Turks.
Under what Foreign Secretary?
I am afraid the best of Foreign Secretaries have to report to the Government, and the Government have to make themselves responsible for what the Foreign Secretaries do. I do not say these criticisms have not been useful. I will not say they were not justified. But I put in this plea. Eight hon. Gentlemen who were Members of the Government responsible for the circumstances that faced Lord Curzon ought at any rate to be charitable. What am I going to do? I have found this Treaty printed and prepared. I had to examine it, and I did—every line, every Clause and every Section. I did not like this. I did not like that. I did not like the other. I really believe if the Conservative Government had remained in power they might have had to say exactly the same thing. [ Laughter. ] Why not? This is a document which was the subject of debates, agreements, bargaining and compromise. No one can be thoroughly satisfied with every particular provision, or lack of provision, that is to be found in it. What is the test that ought to be applied to this? There are several. Obviously, if the Treaty was so thoroughly bad that it could not be carried out, and as soon as it began to be carried out it would lead us into greater difficulties than those in which we now find ourselves, all the risks ought to be taken and no ratification ought to be given. But that is not the situation. Another test is this. I put it; I considered it, and I rejected it. Could I have another Conference? Could I approach the Powers who signed this document and tell them that His Majesty's Government were not prepared to ask for its ratification, and ask them to have it referred again? Such a movement would have been perfectly absurd, and that for one very simple reason, that I am certain nothing would have pleased certain Powers better than that the whole question should be re-opened under circumstances that, in some respects, are not quite so favourable as even the bad circumstances that Lord Curzon had faced when he had negotiated at Lausanne There is no prospect whatever that a new Conference would have produced a better document. The course that is open to us is completely to ratify the Treaty. We must ratify, otherwise there will be no end to the state of war. That may not mean anything to-day or to-morrow, but it is there. There can be no agreement, no friendly relations, no co-operation. No one with any sense of responsibility upon him would allow that condition of things to remain for 24 hours if he could bring it to an end. Therefore, this Treaty must be ratified.
Suppose we do not ratify it. The Treaty can be ratified or put into operation by three Powers. Italy has ratified it. It is now under consideration by the Privy Council of Japan, with the intention of its being ratified. Statements have been made in the French Chamber that but for circumstances which prevented its earlier ratification here, France would have ratified it, and it is going to be ratified with as little delay as possible. Does any hon. Member suggest that we should allow throe Powers to ratify this Treaty before ourselves, and then find it being put into operation in spite of us and over our heads? It must be ratified, because during the months of delay Turkey has become more and more suspicious, more and more pressing, wanting to know what its status is to be, and what its welcome is to be in Europe. Turkey has declined absolutely and in the most point-blank way to make any appointment to any Committees or Commissions provided for in this Treaty until such time as the Treaty has been ratified. My hon. Friend opposite said that one of the outstanding points is the boundary of Iraq. I have been pressing, I have been cajoling, I have been doing everything I could to get Turkey to appoint its representatives upon that Commission, but the reply has been, "No. Not until you have ratified the Treaty." In the meantime, all sorts of things are going on on the frontier, all sorts of movements, all sorts of agitations. I am not going to be responsible for any policy of inaction regarding this Treaty which at any moment may produce military outbreaks in that part of the world.
I am satisfied that this Treaty can be made the basis of a good understanding, a working understanding between Turkey and ourselves. My hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Brigadier-General Spears) said that he rather expected that I ought to be in favour of this Amendment. I am not at all sure that I am not. I am. Yes, but I can satisfy hon. Members that their Amendment should be withdrawn. If this Amendment be the sole reason why there is any doubt on the part of my hon. Friends below the Gangway in regard to voting for the ratification of this Treaty, T think I can satisfy them. The first point is the nature of the gaurantee. I beg the House not to be misled by slipshod readings of Clauses, and certainly not by slipshod use of words like "guarantees." What is the guarantee? Article 18 of the Straits Convention—and this is a substantial part of the Treaty—says:
Threat!
It is not a question whether it is a threat or not. The point is that if it be a threat it must be a real threat, or if it be an act, it must be an actual thing that has occurred because Turkey has been weakened by the demilitarisation of these areas. That being the case, what happens? Our guarantee does not come in, not at all. We do this—
I do not want to raise a point as to what in actual fact apart from words is the difference between the guarantee to Turkey as a member of the League of Nations under Clause 7 of the Constitution of the League, and the guarantee that Turkey as a non-member of the League of Nations gets under Clause 18 of the Straits Convention. I think it is a very fine point. If Turkey, as she has promised to do, joins the League of Nations when she is at peace with Europe, she then comes under the benefit of Clause 10 of the League of Nations, which gives her a general guarantee. I should enjoy very much hearing a debate upon the difference in the value of guarantee under Clause 10 of the League of Nations as compared with her guarantee whilst not a member of the League of Nations under Clause 18 of the Straits Convention. These are my views of the guarantee.
Now, as to the Dominions. I do not think that Lord Curzon has been fairly dealt with in regard to that matter. It is my business to put the facts before the House. I am afraid I cannot exactly say how much of what I am going to say has been made public, but I think everything that I am going to say has been made public. I took steps to see that what I am going to say was public property. "What are the facts? First of all, before Lord Curzon, as Foreign Secretary, was appointed as our representative at Lausanne, with Sir Horace Rumbold, steps were taken to communicate with the Dominions and to inform them as to the intention, and to ask them whether they agreed that Lord Curzon and Sir Horace Rumbold should be their representatives, as Imperial representatives, as well as British representatives. They agreed. During the negotiations, telegrams were sent every day to the Dominions.
And to India?
And to India. As my right hon. and gallant Friend knows, that course is pursued in view of the growing relations between Whitehall, or wherever negotiations of this character are being conducted, and the Prime Ministers of the Dominions and India. That was done. After these documents were signed they were printed, and sent in complete form to the Dominions and India. That was three months before the Imperial Conference. We must do our Dominion Prime Ministers justice Is any hon. Member going to say that an important document like this is to be sent to the Dominions and to India and that, at the end of three months, it has not been so carefully scrutinised that any Dominion Prime Minister or any Indian representative could come to London to attend the Imperial Conference, at which this subject was to be discussed, without knowing what obligation was imposed upon this country by this document? Frankly, I do not believe it. I do not believe that any Prime Minister does his work in such a slipshod way as that, or that there is any civil servant in any responsible Department who does his work so badly.
8.0 P.M.
That is not all. At the Conference their attention was drawn to this matter by Lord Curzon himself. It may be that Lord Curzon did not dwell long enough upon it. Can anyone imagine Dominion representatives, who showed at every stage of that Conference the greatest jealousy of Dominion independence, not being alive to this matter? It did not matter what subject was before them, if in any way whatever with that subject could be associated a suspicion that the Dominions were having something imposed upon them that they knew nothing about, or that they wanted to have explained, at once they became alive. I cannot accept the assumption that this most important document should have lain for three months in the Dominions unobserved and misunderstood, and that when Lord Curzon drew their attention to it at the Imperial Conference it still slipped their notice, and that they did not understand what was the meaning of the guarantee or its application. I cannot accept that theory of Dominion mentality.
However, I am in a Still stronger position than the situation appears. As a matter of fact, India and New Zealand agreed very early on to ratification. Canada replied that she would agree to what His Majesty's Government did. She raised one or two constitutional points, which I do not think, in this respect, were really meant by Canada to have much substance, but were a sort of safeguard and a certain expression of reticence and reserve regarding the possible extension of a principle granted in relation to a specific point, without a warning being given to us that Canada would require to maintain for herself certain rights of decision over and above Imperial rights of decision. The Irish Free State had no difficulty—
Are we to understand that Canada has ever intimated its readiness to accept this obligation as binding upon Canada?
The Canadian Government have said, with a full knowledge of the Treaty, that she would be perfectly willing to accept the decision of the Government and would take no exception to what His Majesty's Government did—something like that. I have not got the exact words.
Does Canada accept the obligation herself?
Canada, I am perfectly certain, accepts the obligation, having been represented by Lord Curzon at Lausanne, with her full knowledge and consent. Then we come to Australia and South Africa. Up to this afternoon Australia and South Africa had not replied. They have now replied. Australia, and South Africa have agreed to ratify the Treaty, and they have not only agreed to ratify it, but in both cases they have mentioned the Straits Convention, and accept the responsibility of the Straits Convention guarantee. In both cases they take advantage of Article 16 regarding the general provisions under the Trade and Economic Section, but that is specifically provided for, that the Dominions may or may not ratify. That is the one exception that they make to the complete ratification. I think the House will understand now why I said that the requirements of the Amendment have been met.
Several hon. Members opposite made a plea that this Treaty might be made the basis of a better understanding with Turkey. I noticed in some of the speeches a sort of indication that those who delivered them were quite unaware that the old Turkey is dead and that a new Turkey has been born. I happened to be in Constantinople once again last October, and there under one's very eyes one saw the new Turkey arising. Nothing impressed me more than this about this Treaty. Everybody I saw there, every Turk I met and discussed politics with, pressed me, and kept on pressing me, with this fact—that until this Treaty was ratified there would be no re-establishment of the good relations between this country and Turkey. I am not quite so sure about Angora. I have not made up my mind yet. My hon. Friend opposite has made up his. I am quite certain of this—that the hospitality which Mr. Lindsay will meet with at Angora, if it should be his unfortunate fate to be ordered by me or anyone else to go there, will be inconveniently lively, and the conditions under which he will work will, quite seriously, not be such conditions as those under which a very responsible Minister can be expected to do his work adequately. I think the position which the Government ought to take—which any Government ought to take—is the position I take myself. We have got our Embassy at Constantinople. There is nowhere in Angora where our Ministers can lay their heads at present. There are political movements still in Turkey that make Angora as the final capital just a little bit doubtful in the meantime. I think we can develop good relations from Constantinople with our eyes very closely fixed upon Angora, lest the time should come when we have to move there.
There is one other thing of which I am quite certain. Turkey will have, by its administration of those doubtful provisions in this Treaty, to justify itself to Europe. I know what will be said about capitulations; it is perfectly evident. As a matter of fact, if one wants to have a very good case against the compromise regarding capitulations here, they have only to read the speeches which Lord Curzon put up at Lausanne about the capitulations. But it is not the letter of the law by which Turkey is going to be judged. I associate myself profoundly with what was said by the hon. Member opposite. You can have the clauses beautifully drafted, clauses with guarantees, clauses with securities, clauses with commissions, clauses with Consuls and representative officers, and after all, they will not work. We should go to Turkey and say, "We know that these are new provisions, we know that there are certain powers we should like to have, but which we have not got; we do not want to spoof you, but what we do expect you to do is this—work this Treaty like gentlemen, and we will meet you, we will help you, we will counsel you; but remember always that one way by which you are going to be accepted by every European nation as a nation with which co-operation is possible is, that you do not abuse your powers there, that every compromise you give us you will carry out, that every authority you have got by those provisions you will exercise discreetly, and we on our part promise you to observe to you precisely the same standard of conduct." That done, I believe it will help Turkey immensely. I believe that Turkey will get upon its feet. She is a small nation, but not an indifferent nation—a nation for whose welfare and friendly views our great commonwealth of nations cannot afford to be indifferent.
The importance of getting this Bill through at the earliest possible moment has not been really realised, in my opinion. When we realise that in India alone there are 60 or 70 millions of Mahommedans it will be seen how important it is to have friendly relations with Turkey at the very earliest possible moment. I am delighted to hear the speech of the right hon. Member the Prime Minister. It has given heart to us all. It is to be hoped that this Bill will go through at the earliest possible moment. We have an old friend in Turkey. The Turk as a soldier has always been a friend of the British soldier. In the late War no one heard a British soldier who did not say that the Turkish soldier was a straight and honest and brave fighter. He is a straight honest man, whatever may be said of the Turkish official. We have only to recall the facts of the Crimean war, which is still remembered in Turkey. In the Russo-Turkish war, when we sent out the first Medical Mission, a Turkish soldier said to a British doctor, "Oh, you Englishmen, when are you coming to help us? You Englishmen lead us; our officers drive us." There is a testimony from the Turkish soldier. The importance of this Treaty has not been realised yet, but it is realised throughout the whole of the Mahommedan world. I especially congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Kennington (Lieut.-Colonel Williams) on the Socialist Benches opposite on the excellent speech he gave us.
It being a Quarter past Eight of the Clock, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.
Motor Taxation
I beg to move: by July of last year. We are now in April of the following year, and the Committee shows no sign of reporting yet. Therefore, though it might be better in ordinary circumstances to wait for the decision of the Committee, the matter is of such urgency that it has been put down as a subject for discussion this evening. Under the present system of taxation, no regard is had to the extent to which the vehicles use the roads. That is not fair.
The present system has a great many effects which were probably not realised at the time when it was introduced four years ago. During the first three months of last year motor cycle licences for 43,000 vehicles were taken out. In the second half of the year there were 98,000 motor cycle licences, or nearly three times as many. The obvious explanation of that is that people simply put away their motor cycles until the beginning of April. It would be very much better to have a system of taxation which would encourage people who have motor cycles to take the benefit of those cycles throughout the year, so that we should have the advantage of the tax on petrol during the months of January February and March, when these people would be contributing to the revenue, which they are not doing at the present time. During the first three months of last year 47,000 private cars paid licence duty, and in the following three months 64,000 cars. That is to say, 17,000 cars were laid up during the first three months of the year owing to the incidence of the present taxation.
Furthermore, low-priced cars with moderate horse power are paying far more than their share under the present system. There is one very well-known car, which I think is 23-horse power, which is relatively a very light car, and that has to pay £23 a year tax, which I submit is an undue burden on that particular make of car in view of the small amount of harm which it does to the roads. The heaviest vehicles pay relatively very much less, though obviously they do most damage to the roads. To give a case in point. I understand that the London General Omnibus Company were licensed at a certain rate when their cars held only 34 passengers, and now with the large type of omnibus holding from 50 to 55 passengers they pay exactly the same amount of duty. With their greater weight and great earning power the heavy, new motor omnibuses ought to pay more tax than the type of four years ago. Under a system of taxation of petrol they would do this, but under the present system they do not If you allow for weight and also mileage, you will find that the average motor bicycle or light car pays four times as much as an omnibus or a four-ton lorry. That is very unfair to private licence holders as compared with big traffic companies on commercial vehicles. Four times as much is not a fair tax, and justifies us in bringing forward this Motion.
There is another tendency. The manufacturers are encouraged, by the way in which motor taxation is calculated at present, to produce vehicles which pay as low a tax as possible. One hears of 10–25 and of 25–90 horse power cars, and various ways to get out of the present system of motor taxation, and it is a bad thing for the motor industry as a whole, because in the foreign market it is important, if you can, to standardise your vehicles. But we have to make different types of vehicles for the home market, owing to the present system of taxation, from those which are required in the Dominions where they want higher horse power for the rough roads, and the introduction of higher horse power is unfairly penalised by our present system of taxation. Then it is very hard, if you have a car a few weeks old, to get a decent price for it because of the high taxation. I am told that the particular car which I have mentioned, which paid £23 a year, is, when second hand, in some oases not worth more than £23, and it is hard to have to pay the full value of your car in motor taxation. When the present system was introduced those who had cars of 1912 or earlier years were allowed to have a rebate of one-fourth on the taxation. I am sure that it was not intended to apply to 1912 cars as such, and not to apply to cars which were at a subsequent date eight years old. If that is the case I submit that this provision should apply to all cars which are eight years old, that is that all cars which were built in 1913, 1914, 1915 and 1916 ought not to pay the full duty but ought to have the rebate of one-fourth which was given in 1920 to cars which were then eight years old.
Coming to the alternative to the present system, it seems to me that weight, speed and mileage are the three determining factors which automatically account for the damage done to roads. The effect of weight is obvious. Then the fast-moving vehicle will pull up a road more than a slow-moving vehicle will do, and it is evident that the question of mileague comes in as well. Under a petrol tax, the greater the weight the greater the work which the petrol has to do and the greater the consumption of petrol. The greater the speed at which you go beyond a certain speed, the greater the consumption of petrol per mile. And, of course, the consumption also increases with the mileage. A petrol tax deals automatically with these three factors, and the present system does not deal with them. A man who uses his car only at week-ends, and motors only 2,000 or 3,000 miles in the year, at present pays as much as the man who is out every day in the year and does 20,000 or 30,000 miles. Furthermore, the Road Fund, deriving its income from petrol, would on this basis grow as the roads were more used. If the roads were less used there would be less repair work to be done and less tax would come in, but if more petrol were used the Revenue would increase automatically and more money would come in for the repair of the roads.
I would like to see restored the provision for a petrol tax which was in force until 1920, and there should not be any exemption, as there then was, for commercial vehicles, and, I think, for doctors' vehicles. The rate should be a flat rate at, say, 4d. per gallon, in addition to a low registration fee for registration purposes as well. The figures which I have, at 4d. per gallon, show that there would be an adequate revenue, much on the same lines as that which is at present collected. The difficulty, as I have always understood, with regard to a petrol tax, was the question of collection and evasion. If you have a flat rate, the question of evasion as between different users no longer applies, and the tax on 90 per cent. of the petrol used could be automatically collected at the port of entry of the petrol. It would be very easy to collect. I understand that the Treasury and other Government Departments are making difficulties with regard to the proposal, particularly from the collection point of view. There is a very simple remedy.
A further point is that there is an economic limit above which motorists are not prepared to use petrol, or to use it to the same extent. A tax would tend to keep the price of petrol down, because the petrol producers would realise that if they forced the price up unduly, with the extra 4d. or so added, the consumption would fall back, and to that extent it would not pay the producers to profiteer or to make corners in petrol. Then we are told that these taxes have been tried in the past, and are not possible now. I would like to adduce the cases of several countries where this form of taxation has been tried. At present they have taxes on motor spirit in France, and they are receiving the sum of £4,000,000 to £5,000,000, taking the exchange at the normal rate. If France can get over the difficulty of evasion and substitutes, surely we can do so? In the majority of the States of the United States taxation on motor spirit is adopted, and several of the other States are having a referendum with regard to it. The frontiers of the United States run alongside other countries, and it might be thought that smuggling would be possible, but in practice it has been found that the tax works all right. In India they have had motor spirit taxation for some years. They are receiving from it £600,000 a year, and they have a definition of motor spirit which, I am told by experts, would overcome one difficulty, for the definition is just about what would meet the case in this country.
With regard to the general question of the taxes that have been levied in the past, only this morning one saw that last year the motor taxes brought in £14,600,000. I have been at some pains to ascertain how much was originally asked for and expected by the Treasury from this motor taxation. I have found that the total asked for, net, was £7,750,000. It would appear, surely, that motorists have a second grievance? Not only is the present tax inequitable as between different classes of motorists, but it is also excessive on motorists as a whole—an excess on the figures quoted of nearly 100 per cent., or close on £7,000,000. I suggest that it is quite time that the House said definitely that, apart altogether from this long-delayed Departmental Committee's Report, it wants to revert to the old system of the taxation of spirit. We can now speak with a good deal of experience of the two different systems. That is the reason why this Motion has been brought forward.
I beg to second the Motion which has been so ably moved by my hon. and gallant Friend. He has covered the ground very fairly, but there are one or two points which I would like to emphasise. First, I wish to emphasise the fact that this is not a party question at all. No party whatever is pledged to any system of taxation of motor cars. All that I ask the House to do is to judge this Motion fairly, equitably, and on its merits. Our whole claim is that the present system is unfair, in that it has no regard whatever to the usage made of the road. None of us likes taxation, but we have to bear it. We grin and bear it. But when taxation appears to be unfair is the time to protest. We look upon this taxation as unfair between different classes of motorists. Is it fair that the car which is used by a business man only during the week-end, so that he can get a breath of fresh air—as hon. Members opposite no doubt do—should pay the same tax as the car which is used every day in the year and all day? Should the man who covers some 400 miles in the year pay the same tax as the man who covers 40,000 miles? It is not fair. The money that comes from this taxation goes to the upkeep of the roads. Surely the only fair basis of the taxation is that the person who does the most damage to the road should pay the highest tax. That is what I want to emphasise.
Who is it that does the greater part of the damage? Nine-tenths of the damage to-day is done by heavy lorries and omnibuses, which use the roads day and night. Yet the private motorist has to pay four times as much per ton per mile as do the people who cause nine-tenths of the damage. I wish to ask the Minister of Transport whether something can be done to prevent great steam tractors from tearing up the roads? I have seen them going along on a hot summer's day, when the roads are soft, and doing more damage in one journey than is covered by many thousands of pounds. I ask that something be done to prevent these great juggernauts from destroying the roads. I believe that it is possible for all these heavy cars to have india-rubber tyres of some kind. Ribbed iron tyres should be kept off the roads. They are the ones that do the damage. What are the taxes that such vehicles pay? Only £25 to £30 a year, according to the weight. Yet that sum is often not one per cent. of the damage that the particular vehicle alone does in traversing the roads. One would have thought that the position would have been altered; it is so manifestly unfair to-day. What are the reasons that have militated against the change? I want to be absolutely fair and to put the case of those who are against us. There are three main obstacles. The first is the Inland Revenue Department; the second is the definition of motor spirit; and the third is represented by certain big combines, like the London motor omnibus companies, which think they would have to pay more for the usage they make of the roads. Those are the three obstacles in the way of a change.
Let me deal first with the case of the Inland Revenue Department. They maintain that under the present system the tax is easily collected, and that there is very little leakage in collecting the tax. I agree it is a simple tax to collect, but I am not so certain about the leakage. I think there is a certain amount of leakage. The Inland Revenue Department seem to be quite regardless of whether the tax is fair or unfair; they simply say it produces the money, and that is sufficient for them. Undoubtedly it produces the money, but at the same time it is an unfair tax, and the money could be collected quite as easily in another and fairer way. We suggest that the tax should be placed on motor spirit. Ninety per cent. of the motor spirit used comes from abroad, and the tax could be collected by the same Customs officials who collect other taxes for the Revenue. Another objection raised by the Inland Revenue Department was that under the Finance Act of 1909–10 there was already a tax of threepence per gallon on petrol, and they said this tax was difficult to collect. The reason for that difficulty, however, was because there were so many rebates of a penny and a halfpenny per gallon on all kinds of vehicles such as doctors' cars and hackney carriages. Naturally these added to to the difficulty of collecting it. All we ask in this case is that there should be a flat-rate tax which everybody will pay. It was also said that it would involve a number of extra officials, but, as I have pointed out, to carry out our suggestion it is possible to employ the officials already stationed at the ports.
This tax has been successfully imposed in the United States. In 1921 four States adopted a tax on motor spirit; in the following year 18 States adopted it. It operated successfully; there were no difficulties of collection, and this year 35 States have adopted it, which proves that it is easy to collect, and that there is very little leakage. The American is a shrewd person, and he would not institute a tax unless there were means of collecting it and of getting a good revenue out of it. He would also see that it was a fair tax. The Americans have seen to all that, and America is adopting this tax State by State. It has also been adopted in France where, in 1921, something like 179 million francs was collected, and in the following year I think it realised 249 million francs, and the return each year appears to be increasing by leaps and bounds. The French have not found any difficulty in collecting it, or any leakage. We are not asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give up the money which he already has, because I know he would refuse to do so, but we are asking him to change the incidence of this taxation and to put it upon the shoulders of the people who are doing most damage to the roads. I think the right hon. Gentleman, if he adopts our suggestion, will find the rate of increase in the return from the tax far greater than the rate of increase in the return from the tax as it is to-day.
The second objection which has been taken is with reference to the definition of motor spirit. Difficulties have been raised especially by the motor omnibus combines upon this point. They say that paraffin and every kind of substitute will be used in order to evade the tax. The big omnibus combines and other people, would to-day be using paraffin, which is far cheaper than any motor spirit, if they found an engine which was capable of running a car conveniently with it. If that were practicable it would have been adopted long ago, but it has not been adopted. In India where they have this tax they have also a definition which is practically the same as that given by our Government chemist before this Committee. That definition is:
The third form of opposition to this change is that which comes from the large combines. Only last Friday hon. Members were doing a good turn to the large London combines by giving them practically a monopoly of the streets. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, you were doing away with the small pirate omnibuses. Now it is time to do something for the small people. It is their turn to receive a benefit. They all want this change in taxation, and the big combines do not want it. My hon. and gallant Friend has told the House that when the Act came into force the maximum seating capacity of an omnibus was 32, and the tax was arranged accordingly. The tax goes up according to increases in the seating accommodation of six at a time, as, for example, from 20 to 26 or from 26 to 32, and each additional six persons carried should involve an extra tax of £12, the tax rising £60 to £72 and £72 to £84.
I wish the hon. and gallant Member to be accurate. The seating capacity of the omnibus was 34, and not 32.
We will say it was 34. The tax goes up, roughly speaking, by £12 to every six people. To-day these omnibuses seat 54 people.
Fifty-six.
That is still more in favour of my case. The tax should have been increased in proportion during all this time, and if they were paying a just amount on that basis to-day, instead of paying £84 per vehicle they should be paying £132 per vehicle. But when the Act came into force, people did not realise that the size of the omnibuses would be so increased. It was never thought of, that to-day these large omnibuses would be carrying an extra 20 people, and they are doing so and paying nothing to the Government. I ask the Minister of Transport to consider that point. If, on the other hand, these vehicles were taxed on the petrol basis, the amount would be larger than at present, but not quite up to the £132 which would be payable by these vehicles under the existing tax, if that tax were amended according to the seating capacity of the omnibuses. It is those big combines that are doing all in their power to prevent any alteration. They know they are going to be hard hit if there is an alteration, and it does not suit them. The London General Omnibus Company last year, I think, paid a dividend of 9 per cent., tax free, and they carried 1,134,000,000 passengers. That is a large amount, but they are not paying to-day their fair share of taxation, and the damage that they do to the roads far exceeds the amount they are paying in taxation. We are putting in a plea for the small man. The man with a Ford lorry, the baker, or other small shopkeeper, is everywhere in favour of this change, but the obstruction comes from these big combines. It is those combines that we are out to fight, and I would ask the hon. Member to remember that we are putting up a fight for the small man throughout the country.
I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Transport to the history of this taxation since 1909. In the famous Finance Act for which hon. Members below the Gangway opposite were responsible in 1909–10 they put a tax of 3d. per gallon on motor spirit, but at the same time there was this rebate of 1½d. per gallon for goods and hackney vehicles, doctors' cars, etc. That tax continued and was collected, apparently, fairly satisfactorily. There must have been a good deal of trouble in collecting all the various forms of rebate, but it was carried on successfully until 1915, when the tax was increased to 6d. and 3d. a gallon respectively. The money was then taken away from the Road Improvement Fund, to which it had been originally devoted, and was used for general purposes because of the War. In 1916 there was again a motor spirit licence duty of 6d. a gallon levied on spirit used for private vehicles, but the object was simply to prevent the use of petrol during the War by private cars, and that was repealed in 1919. In that year a Departmental Committee of the Ministry of Transport was set up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
Since then we have been guided by that Report. In the Finance Act of 1920 the proceeds of the tax were again restored to the Road Improvement Fund, which became the Road Fund and gave grants of 50 per cent. and 25 per cent. of the cost of road maintenance to the first and second-class roads. These grants in 1922–23 amounted to just under £9,000,000. People began to jib against this tax, and on 4th April, 1922, Mr. Arthur Neal, who was then Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, received a deputation of representatives of important associations of vehicle users, manufacturers and traders, introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks). On 18th May, 1922, the Earl of Crawford in the other House announced the terms of reference to another Committee, which were:
I put some the year before.
I asked, very diffidently, when a Report was likely to be received from this Committee, and he said it was expected in time for the Budget. Being a guileless, new Member of this House, I accepted what his Department told me, but the Budget came, and there was no Report. I asked again, and this time I was rather sarcastic, and I asked whether this Committee was going to report in the present year, whether it was going to report at all. I was told that I must not be impertinent, that this Committee was a hard-working Committee and constantly meeting, and that by July most certainly it would report. July came—July went; August came—August went; there was no Report. The end of the year came, and still there was no Report. The next year saw many changes. There was a change of Government. I again appealed to the present Government, and again I was met with the same official response: "The Committee will report at an early date." I sought, at that time, a little further information. I was not going to be put off with official replies. I suggested to the hon. Member that, possibly, he might be able to give me the number of times this Committee had met during the past year. That began to open up matters, possibly, rather more than was altogether desired by that Committee. During the last six months of last year I found out that this hard-working Committee, about whom I had been told so much, that it had been pressed so much by the Ministry of Transport, had only met six times. It is a very hard-working Committee, indeed! This year they have speeded-up operations, and have had three meetings in three months. The hon. Member also added the information that the Committee is going to report in June. Are we still to believe that this Committee is going to report in June, or will another year go by, and possibly another Minister of Transport come—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—well, we do not know.
I know my hon. Friend will refer me to this Committee, and will say he cannot do anything until the Committee reports. He will say that this Committee is going strong. This Committee is like a somewhat slow, meandering stream, passing through a great plain, with many a backwater, whore the stones get held up, and go round and round. On every opportunity, the adjournment of this Committee is moved for a fortnight or a month. The work is put off. There are certain interests which desire to have the report put off from year to year. What does it mean, this report coming in June? It means that nothing can be done until 1926. It goes beyond the Budget this year, and, therefore, we have to wait until the Budget of 1925 before any alteration can be made. They say that every day gained is so much gain to them, and, therefore it is to the interest of these combines to do all they can to prevent this Committee reporting. I would ask the hon. Member to do the same that Sir Eric Geddes did, put his foot down and say that they have got to report. I think I have put my case before the House clearly and fairly, and I do ask hon. Members to judge this case purely on its merits. I am sure we have a very strong case, and I feel no doubt that, on the merits, I am not asking too much when I ask hon. Members to support us in the Lobby.
9.0 P.M.
I think the House will agree with the two hon. and gallant Gentlemen who have moved and seconded this Motion. My sympathy, and the remarks I am going to make, will be extended not so much to the users of motor vehicles as to the manufacturers. We had a great controversy in the last General Election on the subject of Protection and Free Trade as applied to the motor-car industry. I think it would be out of order to go into that controversy now, but I do plead for fair treatment for the manufacturers, and I think the present system of taxation by horse-power is essentially unfair to the manufacturing trade of this country. The hon. and gallant Mover pointed out one effect of this taxation upon the diameter of the cylinder, and that is that one particular type is necessary for home trade and another type is essential for export. It is quite impossible for manufacturers in this country to devote their attention to these two types, and compete successfully with foreign manufacturers. If you have to build two types, overhead charges, and so on, are always increased. It is not only that point which I wish to make. If you have taxation dependent upon the diameter of the cylinder, your designers are unduly hampered. It is impossible to have that, and design an engine scientifically. As a matter of fact, we all know that engines to-day are made as fast running as materials will allow. That is not efficient. A fast-running engine tends to wear out, and, therefore, engines to-day are not built to last. They are built for the purpose of getting out as much horse-power as possible. I say, therefore, that limiting the diameter of the cylinder hampers design. For these reasons, on behalf of the manufacturers, I trust that this limitation of diameter of cylinders making the horse- power will be abolished. The designers cannot possibly design an efficient engine if they are hampered in this respect.
I am very much interested in this Debate, and I have listened with very great attention to the speeches which have already been delivered, and with which, in the main, I am in fairly cordial agreement. I know, of course, that the Motion, whether it be carried or not, does not matter very much, because the Committee which has been inquiring into this matter has yet to report. I know all about that, and I know that no Government is ever likely to do anything until it gets the Report. It would be an insult to the Committee if they did. While I regret as much as anybody the delay in the issuing of this Report, I am going to take rather a different point of view from anyone who has spoken so far. I am interested in this in the sense that not only am I a user of a car, but I am also interested because there are thousands of men in my union employed in the making of cars, and there is not the slightest doubt, in my mind, that the effect of this tax has been almost disastrous.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down pointed out the difficulty of the motor trade being tied down to a hard and fast line with regard to the internal diameter of the cylinders. There is another point of view, which is of equal importance, in regard to the sale of the motor-car itself. The licence is paid quarterly, and what happens is that, at the end of the quarter, everybody who is going to buy a car buys it then, because he dodges the quarter's taxation. At other times there are very few who want to buy a car at all, because they want to save the tax, and, obviously, those who are engaged in the motor trade or motor cycle trade find that all the business is rushed to the end of the quarter. That is making the motor trade more seasonable than ever under existing circumstances.
There is no doubt in the mind of anybody who desires to improve the industry of the country, that there is wonderful scope in this country for the development of the motor trade. I am one of those very fortunate people who have been to America, and I know that all the trade union organisers throughout America have motor-cars of their own. I have been in the shipyards there, and I have seen not scores, but hundreds, of motor cars outside the shipyard belonging to the men who work there. You will see nothing but push bikes on this side of the ocean; but it seems to me that there is much reason to anticipate that, in the course of time, motor cars will not belong only to the wealthy, but that people of even moderate means may have the opportunity of using the roads and seeing their own country. In regard to the damage done to the roads, I am fully convinced that, at any rate, it is not so much the motor cars with pneumatic tyres that injure the roads—I should take a good deal of convincing as to that—a good pneumatic tyre, whatever the weight put upon it, will nurse and save the roads; it is the vehicles that run on steel tyres, and some of the lorries with very hard rubber tyres, and in many cases very bad tyres, with big gaps in them, that do the damage. You can hear them thump, thump, thumping along the roads enough to smash the best road that was ever constructed in the country.
There is no doubt in the mind of anybody who uses the road at all as to the kind of machines that are responsible for the enormous amount of crushing strain and damage done to the roads of the country. In my opinion the people owning these are getting off very lightly indeed. I do not want it to be understood for a single moment that we are raising too much money by this taxation. I do not agree with those who suggest that there should be a reduction in the taxation. I believe that the roads of this country ought to be roads. To me they are a farce and a joke. The roads of this country were made for horses and carts. You have motor cars even of 10 and 12 horse-power that can do 50 or 60 miles an hour on a good road. But there are no roads where it would be safe to do that speed. I believe there are tens of thousands of cars that can do 40 or 50 miles an hour with great ease, and I know other cars that can do 35 to 40 miles, but it is difficult to take these high speeds because the roads wind and twist. I hope, however, to live to see the day when we shall have straight roads in this country, as in other places. There seems to be no reason why the roads should not be the best. Therefore I am anxious to see the same amount of money raised in taxation in order that we might get an improvement in the roads of the country that we see on the Continent. Beyond and above that, I believe that if the tax were put on petrol it would be reasonable, at any rate, and also equitable. It is certainly inequitable as it stands to-day. It is disastrously unfair to trade. We have in this country in the engineering trade, as everybody knows, an enormous proportion of skilled engineers out of work. A large number of these men are unemployed to-day because of the system of taxation on the motor cars that are built in this country: this limits the number of cars that can be built for export.
I hope that the Minister of Transport will put a little spirit into this Committee. It is evident to anybody who follows this case that this Committee has designedly gone to sleep. They will take a good deal of waking up. It is obvious to those interested in this matter that there are certain very powerful interests, very keenly interested in delaying any decision on this matter—for very good financial reasons. It means money to them. I think that that is a very unfair motive to be allowed to prevail in a case of this kind. Therefore, I sincerely hope that the Minister of Transport will give some attention to this matter, and that he will bring some pressure to bear upon this Committee, and that we shall get some sort of Report in the near future.
To get back to the tax upon petrol; at so much per gallon it will give a new lease of life, I am confident, to the motor cycle and motor car trade in this country. I believe if the motor trade were given something like reason and common sense they would be able to prevent the importation of very many of the American cars that are coming in, and that would give employment to a very large number of engineers in this country, and other men, who badly need it. You have some hon. Members on the other side of the House who argue the case somewhat differently. The taxation of £1 per horsepower in regard to the high-power car is an additional protection against the importation of the American machine into this country. I think if the British manufacturers were given a reasonable chance, they would soon get busy on their job, and lift this country into the high exporting position it ought to occupy in the markets of the world.
I do not propose to move the Amendment standing in my name, as I understand the various points that I wish to make I may make in speaking in support of the original motion. This question can be divided into two parts. Motor taxation to-day is unfair as between motorist and motorist, and also unfair as between the motorist and the general public. In regard to the first point, that is the unfairness as between motorist and motorist, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for East Lewisham (Lieut.-Colonel Pownall) has dealt with the position in some detail. I entirely agree with him that the tax should be put upon the amount the car is used, and the amount of damage to the road that has been done by the car. He went through the various points. I shall not go into these in detail and detain the House, but I should like to emphasise one or two things. In the first place, it is quite clear that if a car is used for 1,000 miles in a year that car should not pay the same taxation as a similar kind of car which is run 20,000 miles. That is perfectly clear, I think.
Again, the incidence of taxation should not be allowed in any way to influence the design of the car or of the engine. At the present time it is necessary that manufacturers should manufacture a different type of engine for export to the one they make for home use, and this, we all know, increases the cost of manufacture. You want to produce as few types as possible to manufacture economically. The taxation of a motor vehicle as a motor vehicle prevents motorists from keeping a reserve car. Many a motorist would keep a car in reserve if it did not mean he would have to pay £20 or £30 a year whether or not he was using the car. Then it prevents the sale of secondhand vehicles. This is an exceedingly important point from a trade point of view. It is often the case that the price obtained for a second-hand car is either equal to the annual tax or twice the annual tax. At the present time if a person purchases a second-hand car, he is going to purchase, not only the car, but a liability of some £20 or £30 a year. In the case of the 30 horse-power car, if there were no tax he could sell it for say £200. As it is, a purchaser will not give that amount if, in addition, he has to pay £30 a year, and he would probably only give about £60 for it. Under those conditions the motorist cannot afford to get rid of his second-hand car, and the result is that he does not purchase a new car, which is bad for the manufacturer and for the workmen. When this tax on horse power was first imposed a 10-horse power new car cost £500, and the tax on it was only £10, but to-day the average price for a 10-horse power car is about £250, and the taxation is exactly the same. Reference has been made to the comparatively small taxation paid by motor omnibuses as compared with the taxation paid for private vehicles, but that point was made abundantly clear by the hon. and gallant Member for Belston (Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury), and I need not deal with it further.
Another very important point is in connection with the quarterly payment of the tax. This means that the agents throughout the country are largely stocked with cars at particular times of the year, and it is impossible for them to get accommodation to house those cars. Consequently the whole staff has to be engaged on delivery of the cars immediately a new taxation quarter is entered. I think it is unfair that any taxation should be imposed in such a way that the trade cannot be carried on evenly from week to week. The hon. Member for Claycross (Mr. Duncan) said all trade union leaders possessed cars in America. May I state that nearly every American workman owns a car to-day, and they are nearly all of them capitalists. That is what we want to see here.
So far I have been dealing with the point that the present system of taxation is unfair as between motorist and motorist. I would like to refer to the unfair taxation as between motorists and the general public. It was pointed out by the hon. and gallant Member for Bilston that when this taxation was first imposed the amount realised was slightly in excess of £7,000,000. It will be remembered that the Departmental Committee was asked to make recommendations that would produce an annual income of about £7,000,000. May I point out that the income to-day is something like £14,500,000, and the proceeds go entirely to the Road Fund. It should be under- stood that it was originally intended that the Road Fund should be used for the improvement of roads only, that is to say for the widening of roads, making new byroads and removing corners, and making roads more safe both for motorists and other users of the roads. Later on as this fund grew it was decided that it would be more equitable, and I do not think motorists objected, that 50 per cent. of the cost of maintenance of first class roads and 25 per cent. of the cost of maintenance of second class roads should be borne by the Road Fund.
What in 1914 was regarded as a general burden was afterwards decided should be placed upon a single section of the community. As the Road Fund grew grants were made for relief works on account of unemployment, and it is quite clear to almost everyone who has given any attention to this matter that the cost of employing unskilled men on these relief works, and the extra cost due to the employment of those men has been borne very largely by the Road Fund, while contributions made by the Exchequer have been on the whole very paltry indeed. It is also clear that road schemes which would have greatly benefited motorists have been put on one side for relief schemes for the relief of unemployment.
As the Fund grew it was decided to devote a certain portion to the upkeep of unclassified roads, and about £1,250,000 has been devoted to this purpose out of the Road Fund. Really that is a grant in aid of rural rates. We were informed only last week that the cost of the London Traffic Advisory Committee was going to be borne by the Road Fund. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] I hope the hon. Member is correct. It is quite clear that the cost of the Traffic Committee should be spread over London as a whole, and not one penny of it ought to come out of the Road Fund. Motorists, I know, are interested in this question, but they ought not to be called upon to provide money for deciding whether omnibuses should or should not be allowed to compete successfully with trams. If they can compete successfully and more economically, the sooner they are allowed to knock out the trams the better. At any rate, money to decide that question should not come from the pockets of the motorists.
Grants have been made from the Road Fund in connection with widening schemes in urban areas and those are sums of money that ought not to come out of the Road Fund. In most cases when urban widening schemes are put into operation 90 per cent. of the cost is incurred in connection with the purchase of property, and it is wrong that any cost of that kind should come out of the Road Fund. It has been made very clear that this high taxation and its unfair incidence is very harmful to the motor industry. The Departmental Committee has been sitting for a very long time. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has not been sitting very long."] At any rate it has been in existence for a very long time, and its Report has not yet been published. At all events its Report is very much overdue. I do not think we ought to be content to wait for that Report any longer: something should be done straight away. Pending that Committee reporting, the Minister of Transport ought to consider whether it would not be possible immediately to reduce the tax from £1 to 10s. per horse-power. This would give a great fillip to the trade, it would mean the employment of many more skilled and unskilled men, and I do not think it would cause much falling off in the receipts from the taxation. The taxation would probably produce about £10,000,000, because many people would keep reserve cars which they do not keep at the present time, and many people, too, would fee able to sell their second-hand cars more readily and buy new cars. I have very great pleasure in supporting the Motion.
The Seconder of this Motion suggested that we should not discuss this matter on party lines. I propose not to do so. I think it will be found when the discussion has terminated that there is practically common agreement in every part of the House. One of the greatest points which has been made is that owing to the incidence of motor taxation we are producing a freak car. Because we are forced to judge horse-power by bore rather than by bore and stroke, the manufacturers get out of it by lengthening the stroke. This may be all right in a protected home market, but it is playing ducks and drakes with our ex- port trade. Whether we can put up with a freak car or not, the Australians will not put up with a freak car. Our export trade is exceedingly important, because British engineering in motors is second to none in the world. This country is desperately dependent on exports and anything that interferes with the export trade strikes at the very heart of its economic life. We are doing to-day by our taxation on motors what we did 300 years ago by taxation on windows. In this country we are making motoring a privilege of a very few. I happen to be a Canadian, through no fault of my own—it was an accident, but a happy accident—and I know that in Ontario one person in fourteen is able to own a motor-car. Here we are lucky if we own a wheelbarrow. The cheapest car, perhaps, is the Ford car. On the other side you can buy a Ford car for £60, and the licence is about £1 a year. That means that everybody is able to indulge in the privilege of motoring. In California one person in six is able to own a car, practically one motor-car per family. Do we want this modern invention to be the privilege of the few or do we want the large number of people to enjoy this privilege? A tax of £23 a year is a form of protection. The Ford motor car certainly does not do that amount of damage to the road in comparison with other vehicles. For experiment I drove behind a lorry on a summer's day for about seven miles, just to see the damage it did. It was a hard-tyred lorry, with lumps out of the tyre which permitted the actual iron rim to tear the road. That lorry did as much damage in seven miles as represented twice the price of the lorry itself. If we are thinking of the taxation on motor-cars as a means of keeping up the roads, then the hard-tyred lorry should be taxed much more than it was. Such a vehicle would do more damage to the road in half an hour than a Ford car would do in three years. We are making the wrong kind of light car.
It is simply atrocious that a man who wants to use a car once a week in order to see something of the country should have to pay as much tax as the person who uses his car constantly from Monday morning till Saturday night. It is neither fair nor honest. Motoring is cheap on the other side of the Atlantic largely because of the cheapness of petrol. I wonder if it would be possible to make petrol a Government monopoly here? It was possible to buy petrol in Los Angeles last year at 3½d. per gallon. If we had our transports to bring that petrol here, and our distributing centres throughout the country, and the Government made a monopoly of it, the Government would make sufficient profit in handling the petrol to obviate the need for tax. Why is it that petrol under private distribution has been practically twice the price in this country as in Canada or the United States? It costs about 2d. a gallon to bring here. If I were to go into the whole history of the profits and the diplomacy of oil, I should enter too large a range, and should get outside the subject under discussion. But in the interest of motoring for the million instead of for merely hundreds, we should think in terms of importing our own petrol, making it a Government monopoly, buying in the cheapest market, and of dealing with our own coal and getting the by-products in the shape of benzole. If we really were to put our thinking caps on and put the question absolutely above party, we should produce conditions at home which would enable the working man as well as the other fellow to see something of his own country and enjoy something of the privileges of modern motoring.
I do not think that anybody could feel justified in taking part in a Debate of this character unless he had some claim to a slight amount of technical knowledge. I do not base my own claim on having been in the past a Minister of Transport, but on the fact that I have served my time in shops, and that I am a fitter. Should anything in the nature of a social revolution happen in this country, I could earn my living as a fitter. It is very regrettable, I think, that the unskilled man does not get so much as a fitter. We read that that is so, but it is due to our glorious trade unions, and, should such a revolution ever take place, I would advise anybody who is similarly situated to myself not to go back to the business of fitting, but to become a leader of a trade union. It is a very popular thing to decry the ordinary legislation of this country, but I think we ought to remember, on the question of the taxation of motor cars and the ear-marking of the money for spending on the roads, that that is a particular form of legislation which started first of all in this country. It is quite obvious that throughout the whole of Europe a similar form of road subsidy derived from taxation on motor cars has got to take place, but I think it is a matter for congratulation that we in this country were at any rate the first to recognise the general principle.
It is, I think, wise that the upkeep of roads should be paid for by the users of the roads. That, of course, is not quite true of this country, because the Road Fund does not pay entirely for our roads, nor do the motors contribute entirely towards the roads, and there are also the local authorities, who, of course, contribute their various amounts. I should like to know from the Minister what he thinks is going to be the final figure which this Road Fund is to reach. As he knows, whenever one mentions the question of the Road Fund, there are always numbers of Members of Parliament who get up and ask that it shall be devoted to something more useful than it is being devoted to at present; and always we have our rural friends making their claims. It would be interesting to know to what extent that Fund is going to be allowed to grow. It is a fact that the present system is not very inequitable. To-day, half the money derived from motor taxation comes from the pleasure vehicle, and half from the commercial vehicle, and that, I take it, is a pretty fair result from what is, perhaps, a rough-and-ready form of taxation. I agree with the Mover of this Motion that the ideal system is one in which you pay in proportion to the extent to which you use the roads, and also with the second proposition which goes with it, namely, that you should pay in proportion to the damage you do to the roads. Those, I think, are two fundamental ideas on this question of taxation, but I fail to see how a petrol tax, which is really what my hon. and gallant Friend is pleading for, fulfils the second of these desires, although, of course, it fulfils the first.
Much has been said to-night as to the opposition from certain interests to the petrol tax. It is quite obvious where that opposition comes from. It is from any user of a motor vehicle who uses it on a 100 per cent. basis, that is to say, anyone who uses it as much as he can. But it must be remembered that, if we are going to keep the same amount of income for roads, and if we are going to let the week-end motorist off with less, we are going to impose a heavier tax upon the 100 per cent. user. The answer, of course, is, "Why not?" I think it is perfectly clear that the answer to that is, that those vehicles which run on the 100 per cent. basis are omnibuses, lorries and vehicles which are running for the public service.
For private profit!
Yes, for private profit, but in the public service. I want the House to appreciate this, that, if there is a determination to alleviate the burden on the private owner, who motors during the week-end, it means increasing the burden upon the carrying vehicles of this country, and that means increased fares and increased charges for the transport of goods. I hope the House will appreciate that point, because it is a very real one from the point of view of the travelling public in a great city like London. I now want to refer to the question of the damage done to the roads. While I was at the Ministry of Transport I wanted very much to start a real scientific investigation into the question of roads as a whole. I cannot believe that we have got to finality in the building of roads. I believe it is quite in its infancy; but I found that we were spending millions a year on roads, and yet we had not the Parliamentary power to spend any money on experiments on roads. That is a perfectly ridiculous position. Surely, if we are to be economical, it means that the money spent should be spent in the most efficient way possible. Such experiments might be expensive, but they are bound to pay in the long run, and, until the Ministry have conducted those experiments, they really do not know whether money is being wasted up and down the country to-day or not. While I am on this point, may I add that, just as you want a thorough research into how your roads are going to wear, so you also want research in regard to the type of vehicle which does most damage?
Have not the county council actually made experiments?
I think there have been only two, on strips of road with alternative surfaces, but that was done outside London, and it was not done in the thorough way in which it should be done, and done continually. As regards investigation from the point of view of what damage a vehicle does to the road, let me ask, would a railway company run a locomotive for two days more than they need if that locomotive knocked their track about? Never, because they own the track and have to keep the track up. It is very different, however, in the running of commercial vehicles. Anyone can put a commercial vehicle upon our high roads, quite irrespectively of the damage it does to the roads, because the person who runs it has not got to pay. He has to pay a fixed tax, irrespectively of the damage he is going to do to the road. That is not a very difficult scientific investigation, but at present the Minister has no power and no money to investigate these problems, which should be dealt with and investigated as soon as possible. I hope he will get power to do those two very useful things, because I can assure him he will have co-operation in all quarters of the House. I should advocate a continuation of a system of taxation somewhat analogous to the present. I am not in love with the petrol tax, but I do not see any big inherent difficulty or objection to the present system, provided you have a factor by which you can multiply your tax. That sounds very complicated; but what I mean is that if you find that one particular type of vehicle does very little damage to the roads you may graduate the tax according to weight and to the harm done to the roads. It is preposterous that a Ford should pay £20–10s. a week. Certainly you could adjust a system of taxation even on a horsepower basis, bringing in weight against that, so as to diminish or increase the tax. If you take a very light 20 horsepower car and a lorry, and the lorry does more harm than the light car, the lorry should pay twice the tax. I would also ask the Minister to give consideration to what I tried to introduce three years ago, and my noble Friend behind me has tried to press on the Ministry, and that is a reduction in tax on those lorries which deliberately fit pneumatic tyres, because unless you really encourage the saving of our roads from unnecessary damage by a remission of tax, you are going to let these pounding lorries go on doing immense damage which might be very considerably alleviated by a very small encouragement to fit pneumatic tyres. We have heard to-night a good deal about the design of vehicles in this country being peculiar to this country because of our extraordinary system of taxation. One hon. Member said we were building a freak car. I cannot see a freak car. If freak cars were going to be built on the basis of evading that tax, you would expect that as a natural result that an enormously long stroke would be introduced. But it has not happened.
The stroke has increased.
Not more in this country than others. We have had cars with an enormously long stroke, but they do not exist to-day. In France you have no tax like this, and do we find the difference in design is very marked? I cannot see the difference in design at all. You get in France no taxation on the basis of the engine. The two-litre car corresponds to what we call the 12 h.p. car, but the car's design in both countries is going along exactly the same line, and to pretend that our design of motor-cars is along one line as against another in other countries is absolutely false. I think some cars made in America are on a very different principle because petrol is very cheap, and taxes are not laid on horse power at all. That, I think, applies to a certain type of motor-car, but in countries whose taxes are anything like ours, the general tendency of design has gone along the same line. I think it is a pity that some of these big bore slow running engines have disappeared. The tendency to-day is for the high speed roaring engine. There is one example of the slow-running big bore car and that is the Rolls-Royce. That has the biggest engine of any standard car in Europe to-day. I am not here to plead the cause of the Rolls-Royce. I would rather the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) were here to plead the cause of his workmen.
He does not use them.
No, but he is dependent on their votes. That type of vehicle is not fashionable, and abroad you do not find that particular type being made. Now I come to the question of my objection to the fuel tax. I put the objections to such a tax in two categories, the first technical, and the second administrative. First of all, the difficulty of adopting the Petrol Tax is to decide what is petrol. Even the greatest experts vary from day to day as to what really is a fuel for a motor-car. The flash point varies from 70 to 150 so far as one can gather, and there is no real definition of what a fuel is. There is this question too. Should you ever determine what is a suitable fuel you get that really most distressing thing, lawful evasion, which means that with your light petrol you can mix heavier oil, and that is really a very undesirable form of swindling the Exchequer. Now we come to the administrative difficulty. My hon. Friend who proposes a Petrol Tax never suggested that the present system of taxation should be abolished altogether, and therefore he asks us to indulge in two forms of collecting the same amount of money. First of all that is an extremely extravagant way of collecting money. He has not dealt, of course, with the steam and electric car, and I think the electric car anyhow is going to increase very much as the charging capabilities of the batteries improve. I want to ask him what is he going to do with benzol and power alcohol. Those are two very difficult things to compete with when you come up against a fuel tax. Power alcohol is a thing this country has been short of for years, and every encouragement should be given to it, but you are not going to increase the supply of power alcohol by making it a taxable commodity. On the question of benzol, after all benzol is a very easy thing to make. With a coke oven or in any gas works benzol can be made. Is it really seriously suggested that all our gas works should become bonded warehouses in order that no one may use the product of those works? Then think of the dislocation of trade when motor spirit is looked upon as a taxable commodity for the purposes of the roads, and the many uses to which it is put—I need hardly mention aviation, motor-boats, electric lighting, stationary engines, dye-cleaning, paint varnish, farm tractors. There are hundreds of ways of using it.
What does the suggestion really mean? We are to have two sets of stores, one duty free and one not duty free. We are to have a system of permits and rebates. Then we are to have a double method of evasion, the mixing of light spirit with heavy spirit, and also the terrible temptaton to a man who has an electric light plant run by petrol, which would have to be kept in one part of the house, which would be duty paid, while the other part would be duty free. I was in that position during the War, and I know the severe temptation it was to get a can misplaced by mistake. It is within the bounds of possibility that very shortly the Diesel engine will play a prominent part in the propulsion of heavy vehicles. Then there comes the question of crude oil, because the basis of the taxation is that we shall tax everything that propels anything along the road. Therefore, you come down to crude oil and paraffin being taxed, and when you come to that you will be inflicting more hardship than benefit upon the country. Like everybody else, I admit that the present system is not an ideal system. I think changes should be wrought upon it, changes of detail based upon weight and upon the damage done to roads, but to change to a petrol tax would really be a retrograde step. It would be one of those aggravating things that would butt into one's life all day and every day. Having regard to all the circumstances, I hope that hon. Members will vote against the Amendment.
I have listened to this Debate with great care, and I take very much the standpoint of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just addressed the House. My history in this matter goes back to the days of Sir Eric Geddes, when he forced the present system of taxation through this House against the wish of the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) and myself among others. We did our best to oppose him, but, having fought to the last ditch, the present system of taxation was imposed against all that we could do to prevent it. However reluctant one may be to take such a view, I hold strongly to the view expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) that any alteration of the present system of taxation would be extraordinarily difficult. I think the reasons which the hon. and gallant Member have given are almost unanswerable, but I agree that the present system might be modified to take some account of weight and damage done to roads. I have heard hon. Mem- bers say that the present system of taxation develops a type of motor-car unsuitable for export. I would like to challenge that statement. The hon. Member for Claycross (Mr. Duncan), who speaks with a great deal of knowledge, stated that the present system of taxation produces a type of engine unsuitable for export, but he failed to explain why or how. The present system is taxation upon the bore. The French taxation and the Italian taxation is different, and yet you will find that the same type of long-stroke high-speed engine is being developed, if anything, more on the Continent than in this country.
And coming to this country.
I challenge that statement. It is not a fact.
You can see them on the streets of London.
10.0 P.M.
The Citreon car is not a car with the longest stroke as compared with the bore, and the Viat car is not. The Citreon car is the chief French car for export and the Viat car is the chief Italian car for export. These cars are not exported principally to this country but are exported to countries all over the world. It is a question of the cost of manufacture. Here you have the Morris-Cowley car. Everybody knows that car, which is practically the English Ford. That car has not the longest stroked engine as compared with the bore that is produced in this country, by a very long way, and yet that is the car which is being made in the greatest quantity. It is wrong to say that the present system of taxation develops an entirely wrong type of car for export. The hon. Member for Claycross alleged that the present system is a protective system. I agree with him. I think it is a protective system as against a tax on petrol; for this reason, that motor spirit, with the possible exception of benzol, which is not very much used, is produced abroad, whereas motor-cars are not only produced abroad but in this country. Therefore, such cars as the Ford, which come overseas, pay a very high form of taxation. To that extent, undoubtedly, the present system of taxation is protective in character.
We need to revise our present system of taxation. I would like to endorse every word that was said by the hon. Member for Bilston (Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury) with regard to the Committee on Taxation that is sitting under the Ministry of Transport. I think that Commitee is an absolute scandal, and I have said so before in this House. I fancy that two or three years ago I gave a little evidence before that Committee. The Committee has gone on sitting, and the motorist has been anxiously waiting to know how he is going to be parcelled out, how he is going to be hanged, drawn and quartered. But the Ministry has kept it dark. The Conservative Government was just as much to blame as the Coalition Government. It is obvious that there is some reason why the Committee has gone on sitting for such a long time. I do not think any Committee has sat for such a long time. I suggest to the Minister of Transport that the reason is, as was stated by the hon. Member for Bilston to-night, that there are certain members on that Committee who are interested parties. It is quite wrong that those members should be on the Committee. I invite the Minister to go carefully into the matter and find out why the Committee has not reported. I hope he will adopt some form of very direct action and tell them that they have either to ginger up or cease their activities.
The hon. and gallant Member who moved the Resolution made several astonishing statements. He suggested that the petrol tax could quite easily be collected at the port of entry, but he said nothing about rebates and nothing about benzol or petrol used for other purposes. I do not know how he intends to deal with that question. He said that speed was the thing that pulled up roads. Speed is not the thing that pulls up the roads. It is speed plus weight that pulls up the roads. If you get a very heavy load going along a road at high speed that is one of the causes of damage. Another thing which does damage to the road is the solid-tyred vehicle, either the solid rubber-tyred or solid steel-tyred vehicle. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Haycock) stated that he had followed lorries. I have electrified the House on one or two occasions by saying that I have followed traction engines. I would suggest to the Minister that he should conduct personal investigations into the matter, and follow such vehicles, and he would then see for himself the astonishing amount of damage which that type of vehicle can do, either on a hot summer's day or when there is a thaw after a frost. Vehicles of that sort can do infinite damage to roads all over the country, and they certainly do not pay enough for the damage they do.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to consider the point which I have already brought to his notice, namely, putting pneumatic tyres on commercial motor vehicles. A moderate system of rebates would certainly have the effect of encouraging that, which would in return be a benefit to other industries. The cotton industry would benefit, which it does not do now. I would suggest that that is a desirable thing. The hon. Member for Claycross said that roads in this country were a farce and a joke. I cannot agree with him. Speaking from the point of view of the motorist, I must say that you will find very few countries in the world where roads are better than they are here. You may find them straighter and different in character, but I am quite certain, if the hon. Gentleman will take his motor car across the Channel and drive in France and Italy, he will find out for himself two countries where the roads are in a deplorable state to what they are in this country. I would suggest to the Minister that we are getting really good value for the money spent on our roads. The difficulty is the enormous cost of upkeep.
I hope nothing very drastic will be done with the present system of taxation. I consider the present system is excessive. I think we have to pay too much for old cars. I hope the Minister will pay attention to the point which has been brought to his notice to-night by the hon. and gallant Member for Bilston and also the hon. and gallant Member for East Lewisham (Lieut.-Colonel Pownall), namely, the amount paid for old cars. Could we not have some standard rebate on the present system of taxation for old cars? The hon. and gallant Member for Bilston suggested we should have a standard rebate for cars over eight years old. Would it be impossible to introduce, if the existing system of taxation is kept, that somewhat minor benefit? It would benefit the industry. Motor taxes are a direct tax on the industry, and if he could give some benefit to second-hand cars, people would be able to sell their secondhand cars and they would buy new ones. I suggest that it might possibly do good to the industry if that point could be borne in mind, namely, a standard rebate for cars over eight years old. Whatever the House does, I think it should urge upon the Minister that any system of taxation should take some account of weight and the use made of the roads, but I do not see myself how it is possible to make a change in the existing system of taxation other than on those somewhat modest lines.
I beg to offer one suggestion, as a private motorist, in connection with the case of a man who happens to possess more than one car. I happen to possess three cars, unfortunately, and the only time I use the other two is on election day. I do feel that, just like with insurance policies, there ought to be a rebate to the man who owns two cars—say, a 10 per cent. rebate to the man who owns two cars and a 15 per cent. rebate to the man who owns three cars, if he only uses one car at one time. That is a practical and businesslike suggestion, and I want to offer it now, so that, when the subject is being debated, the Minister can use his influence with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and press this suggestion upon him.
I should like to say a few words in support of the Resolution which has been so ably moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Lewisham (Lieut.-Colonel Pownall). I do so because I think it is certainly time that some unification, and I might also say some simplification, of the existing system of motor taxation were arrived at. At the present moment we have no less than three separate and distinct systems of taxation for motor vehicles in this country. First of all we have a taxation by weight for vans, lorries and commercial vehicles. We then have a system of taxation by seating capacity for public passenger vehicles, and, thirdly, we have a system of taxation by horse-power which is applied to privately-owned cars. Underlying these several systems is the same fundamental fallacy, namely, that the taxation is not based in any way on the use which is made of the vehicle, but it is based on the fact of ownership of the vehicle itself. I wonder if the Minister for Transport has ever considered how this system of taxation has increased the congestion of London streets? Taxation on motor vehicles is at a very high rate, and having once paid the tax for the year the owner of a vehicle considers it incumbent upon him to use that vehicle to its very maximum capacity. I wonder how many van owners there are to-day who send their vans out half full on Monday and, again, half full on Tuesday, knowing that they will not have to pay any additional taxation by doing so? Whereas if the taxation were on the running costs of the vehicle instead of on the actual ownership, they would wait until Tuesday and send the vehicle out with a full load. I wonder how many owners there are of small private cars who take out their cars instead of going by omnibus because the tax having been once paid the running expenses come to practically the same as an omnibus fare? I am quite sure that the congestion of the London streets, which is a problem which we are endeavouring to deal with and which will have to be settled in the immediate future, would be reduced by something like between 20 and 30 per cent. if, instead of having this heavy tax on the ownership of motor vehicles, a tax could be devised which would bear upon the running costs and not upon ownership, in other words, upon the use which the owner makes of that particular vehicle.
I want to say a few words with regard to the Committee, whose belated Report we have been waiting for so long. It is quite obvious, as several Members have already said, that the Report has been held up in deference to, or by the influence of, certain people in certain influential interests, who have succeeded, not only in holding up the Report, but also in scaring two successive Ministers of Transport by the bogey of evasion.
It is true that a certain amount of evasion will probably be practised, should we introduce a system of taxation for motor vehicles on the consumption of petrol, but there would not be one tithe of the evasion which is practised at present. The present incidence of taxation has forced motor manufacturers to design an engine, the first essential of which is to evade the tax as much as possible. It is lawful, but it is evasion none the less. How often do we see motor vehicles advertised as 24–70 or 30–98. In plain language that means that the motor manufacturer says to the prospective purchaser, "I am going to sell you a car which will indicate 98 horsepower, but with such a tax-evading capacity that you will not be called up to pay upon more than 30 horse-power." I grant that there may be a certain amount of evasion of tax, by a certain number of people who are prepared to poison the atmosphere of our country roads by a mixture of benzol and alcohol, or ether and fuel oil, but they will be very few for in addition to spoiling the atmosphere of the country they would ruin their engines and they would not be prepared to do that. Therefore they would be few in number, whereas there is not a single motor car in use in this country to-day on a horse-power basis which does not indicate in favourable circumstances an infinitely higher range of horse-power than that on which it is taxed.
Even if the horse-power tax be essential, though I do not believe it, the formula on which the horses-power is decided is hopelessly wrong, and hopelessly obsolete. As several hon. Members have said, it is a tax upon the internal diameter of the cylinder which has led to the construction of an engine which enables the tax to be evaded. The noble Lord the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) said that he could not see that this particular type of engine had mitigated against our export trade. How then does he explain that we see no English cars on the Continent? Probably he has travelled more in motor cars on the Continent than I have done, but I would like him to tell us how often does he see an English car on the road?
May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman how he thinks the British manufacturer can possibly sell a vehicle in France with the system of taxation on imported cars?
Why should we not sell a vehicle in Holland or in Switzerland?
What about the 75 per cent. duty?
That does not prevent the American from selling his car here, or in any of our Colonies, in spite of the taxation, while we do not see English cars on the continent. In my opinion there can be no question that this tax has forced the manufacturer to build a type of engine which the foreigner will not buy and the Colonials particularly will not buy. The hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) said that the French and Italian cars had been developing along the same lines. I believe that is largely due to the fact that the manufacturers there have been developing their engines with an eye to the English markets. The manufacturers whose competition we dread most are those of America. To-day the United States manufacturers build 100 cars for every one that is built in this country. I dare say that if a trade representative were here he would point out that we exported something like £2,500,000 or £3,000,000 worth of cars. But I would remind him that the Board of Trade figures are hopelessly inaccurate, because of the way they are made up. They record as exports cars which are taken to the Continent for a fortnight or three weeks' trip, although the Custom House authorities know that those cars are coming back. In such cases the value of a car is included in the Board of Trade returns as an export, and on the car's return its value is counted as an import. If we wish to see the motor trade of this country attain its proper position among the industries of the world, we must allow the motor manufacturers and designers a free hand to design an engine and chassis which will sell not only in this country, but on the Continent. I can name half-a-dozen American cars, the chassis and engines of which are suitable both for passenger cars and for light vans. There is not a single engine and chassis designed and built in this country which is suitable for that dual purpose.
What about the Morris?
It is not of much use as a light van. At any rate it cannot compare with the Ford or the Dodge. Any motor manufacturer would agree as to the advantage of being able to build a combined chassis and engine which would be suitable for the dual capacity. In conclusion, let me speak from the personal point of view. It sometimes happens that hon. Gentlemen opposite are apt to impute personal motives to anybody who may speak from this side of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It sometimes happens. I, therefore, wish to say that I am not a motor manufacturer and that I do not own a single share in any motor manufacturing concern. None the less, I believe that if we wish to see the motor trade attain its full and proper position in this country, we must free the manufacturers from the trammels by which they are now encumbered. I do not believe that we in this country can live by taking in our own washing. We must export. That applies to the motor trade as much as to anything else. It is only by increasing our export trade that we can hope to solve or mitigate the evil of unemployment. If we can succeed in increasing our exports of motor vehicles, we shall take a great step forward. We shall probably do as much by this means towards mitigating or solving the problem of unemployment as by any of the nebulous schemes which are at present being discussed by the Government and all over the country.
I am not able to address the House as a fitter, nor as the owner of three motor-cars, but only as the owner of a very small car. I agree with the Mover of the Motion that three things to be considered are weight, speed, and mileage. It seems to me if one had to choose between the present system of taxation and the system suggested, namely taxation on petrol, that of the two I should prefer the present system. It is not that I am really in agreement with the present system, but I think it is the better of those two. We have to consider also the proportion in which the vehicle is used, and secondly the proportion of damage done to the roads, as was said by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon). The only way in which we can fairly consider the three points mentioned by the Mover of this Motion, and also the two elements I have just mentioned, is by making an alteration in the system of taxation which will make that system include both methods. In the first place, every motor vehicle should be taxed, and in the second place, the tax should be very much reduced as compared with the present tax. In arriving at that tax we should consider firstly the weight, and secondly whether the vehicle has pneumatic or solid tyres. Having considered the question from that point of view, the Government should then decide upon the amount of tax to be payable. They will then have to consider further how to deal fairly and squarely with the extensive user of a car as against the man who is only able to use the vehicle very occasionally, and there the system of taxation with regard to motor spirit could be brought in. If we had a system of two taxations of that kind, we should arrive at something fair and equitable both with regard to the taxation and with regard to the taxpayer. I commend that suggestion to the Minister, and I ask him to recommend this Committee, which has taken so long about the matter, to consider it when they come to arrive at a decision. The question of damage to roads is a most serious one, and another most serious question is involved with regard to the motor industry. I feel that the present system of taxation is seriously hampering industry. We want to support the industry, and at the same time to place the motor-car within the reach of every person who can drive a car properly.
I desire to bring out very shortly one or two points in regard to which it seems to me the present system operates unfairly to the country districts. I think the Debate has shown that, on the whole, everybody agrees that if a system could be devised of a tax on petrol, instead of the present tax on horse-power, it would be desirable. Everybody has admitted there are considerable difficulties, and if only this Committee, of which we have heard so much, even at this late hour can be persuaded to produce something in the shape of a report, perhaps we might be able to come nearer a solution of these difficulties. We have heard a great deal about the increasing weight and speed of motor-lorries, chars-à-banc, and so on, which run over our country roads, but under the present system—and I see it every day in my constituency—these enormously weighty machines, with these very faulty tyres, which are very often merely iron tyres, are increasing their speed and also their weight, but they are adding nothing to the Road Fund at the same time. If the tax were put on fuel, increased weight and speed would mean that the consumption of fuel would increase, and they would pay a larger share of taxation, from which the country districts would benefit.
In my part of the world we happen to be a district through which the great traffic from the big West Riding towns passes in order to get to the seaside in the summer, and during certain months of the year there is a constant stream of these enormous vehicles going down the main roads in my constituency, but we get a very small volume of relief for the damage which they do to the roads. That is getting worse every day, and some method must be devised to remedy the grievance. I have another grievance, which I have several times brought before the Minister, of traffic between various county boroughs, for which the county boroughs pay nothing, and for the damage from which the county has to pay entirely. It would not be strictly in order to develop that question now, but in that instance also you get the increase of speed and weight and the resulting damage to the roads, but no increased contribution to the Road Fund. I would like to add this one other grievance which we in the country feel. We see all this damage being done by these great lorries and chars-à-banc, but the car which the farmer uses mostly is the Ford. The high taxation of the Ford has been alluded to already, and the damage that the Ford does is infinitesimal. The farmer, the small baker, and the grocer, who largely use Fords, resent very much having to pay this high tax, and, on the whole, if only we could find some means of putting a tax on fuel, I am certain that in the rural districts there would be considerable advantage and probably a better chance of getting more out of the Road Fund.
As regards the remark made by the late Minister of Transport, who said that in these discussions on motor taxation his rural friends always came in and asked for more, I am certainly going to adopt that attitude myself. We do not get nearly enough, and we are going to press for and insist upon getting more, and even if the motorists have to pay, so long as they use our roads and make us repair them, it is only right that they should pay for them. I speak as the owner of a car myself, and as one who has driven a car for many years, and I should be quite willing to pay my share, but I think those who are really doing the damage should pay accordingly.
May I say one or two words before the Minister replies? I happen to be one of those who were in this House when the tax was started in 1909, and I remember that the reason of the tax was to find a fair method of making the motorist pay something towards the damage which, erroneously or otherwise, he was supposed to be doing to the roads of the country. The petrol tax was put on in 1909 as being the fairest way of taxing a man according to the damage which he did to the roads, but I think we all agree, judging from the Debate to-night, that the present form of taxation has no reference to the amount of damage done to the roads. I am sure my hon. Friend will not expect me to agree with all he said about motorists, and the demand he is making that motorists should be further fleeced for the upkeep of the roads. I remember, when this tax was put on, the Government and the country thought it very handsome on the part of the motorists to shoulder a tax of £5,000,000. It now involves £15,000,000 a year, and it is constantly growing year by year. If it had not been for this tax, the whole foundation of the last Government's programme for dealing with unemployment would have gone by the board. This tax has been a most useful tax during the last few years, and I think motorists are entitled to take very considerable credit to themselves, and to use that in reply to those people who attack them for the damage they are doing to the roads, and the remarks that are made against them from time to time. After all, it was their money which enabled the foundation to be laid of these great works for the unemployed, which, I hope, under the present Government, will now begin to bear fruit.
When one considers the present mode of taxation, it does not touch weight, speed or distance. One the other hand, petrol touches the whole three, because the heavier the vehicle, the faster the vehicle, or the greater distance the vehicle goes, the more it pays, and I suggest to the Minister of Transport that it is no answer to the proposal to say that there are many difficulties in the way. We know there are difficulties in the way of all forms of taxation, but my experience, short as it was at the Treasury, convinced me that you have only got to decide upon any form of taxation you like, and the Treasury and Customs' officials are able to carry it out. It is quite beyond the mark to say it is impossible to carry out this proposal, if the Government decide it shall be carried out. To-night we are asking the House to pass a somewhat academic Resolution, I admit, in favour of taxation on petrol, because the Report of the Committee has not yet been given to the Minister of Transport.
I do not want to use harsh language about that Committee. Most of them are friends of mine. For Sir Henry Maybury, the Chairman, I have the very greatest respect indeed. But I remember I was a very young lad at the time that Committee started. [An. HON. MEMBER: "You are still."] Thank you; I appreciate the compliment. I cannot charge my memory so far as to say whether I gave evidence or not, but I know there have been 10,500 questions asked by that Committee, and really they might by now have made up their minds. 10,500 questions, and they have not yet been able to agree upon a Report! After all, Sir Henry Maybury is one of the Minister's own officials, and he can have him up on the carpet or the door-mat to-morrow morning. He can say, "I do not want to influence your Report, or express any opinion whether you should decide in favour of petrol or horse-power tax, but, for God's sake, come to a decision one way or the other." I do not know whether that is the kind of language that the Minister of Transport is used to, or what effect it would have upon Sir Henry Maybury, but I do suggest the matter is approaching a scandal, and the hon. Gentleman should try something of that kind to get a Report out of that Committee before very many weeks have passed.
A very good suggestion has been put forward to the effect that I should seek more power to get more money, and also that I should endeavour to find out a better way of improving the roads. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speakup!"] I am obliged for the suggestion, and I will do what I can to carry it out. The net proceeds of the motor vehicle licensing duties have risen from about 10¼ millions in the year 1921–22, to a figure estimated at 13½ millions for the year 1923–24. This was net, and really represents the sum available for grant from the Road Fund. Grants towards the ordinary maintenance and improvement of Class I and Class II roads will absorb not less than 9 or 9½ millions. The revenue, fortunately, has shown a buoyant tendency, though the monies available for grants are really insufficient to enable the highway authorities to maintain and adapt their roads for modern traffic requirements.
On all sides in this House we hear complaints continually of the intolerable burden of highways and similar expenditure out of the rates. The present system of taxation was recommended by a representative Departmental Committee as the best and the fairest under existing conditions to raise the necessary revenue. On the whole the present system has worked well. There have been few complaints, apart from those raised against any form of taxation. Experience has shown that in its working adjustments can be made to meet certain special cases of hardships, but there are one or two Amendments that I hope to bring forward at an early date. I feel that the Motion that has been put down was put down rather in the form of a vote of censure, or a complaint that the Committee that has been so heavily criticised were not speeding this matter as rapidly as they might. If I could give an assurance that their Report will be ready next week I should be glad; but I am not able to do that. On the other hand, I am invited to take some very serious and drastic steps which I do not quite feel that I ought to attempt to do, especially when I have been so short a time in the Ministry. I do not, however, want to excuse myself or the Government in any way by talking about the shortness of the time that we have been in office. My troubles are what they are, and when I find them I endeavour to get through them as well as I can. On the other hand, it must be remembered that this Committee has lived through Governments. Some past Governments have grown old while the Committee has sat, but I trust that I myself will not add much more to my life before they report. This is what they have done by the way of report. I do not want, however, to discuss what they may decide until I hear it from them.
May I point out that whilst this Motion is a suggestion to put the taxation on fuel, it is not a taxation to remove all the taxation that is now operating. One has to be a little careful in this matter because there might be two administrative expenses, and it might cost as much to collect the smaller amount as the larger one by our present methods. When we come to the new taxation we want to see that we are not entering into an expense far beyond anything that can be anticipated at the moment. I do not want to go into that question now because most of the points to which I attach importance have been well put by the Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon). What I will promise is to keep my mind open until the Committee has reported, and I will see that the Committee report and hon. Members shall have that report before June.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an undertaking, in view of the criticisms which have been made in this Debate, that this Committee will be instructed to report before the Budget is introduced?
I have gone into this matter with those responsible, and I saw that this was a state of things which could not be allowed to continue. I can only promise at the present time that the Report shall be in the hands of Members before June, and under these circumstances, seeing that this question has been well ventilated, I hope the Motion will be withdrawn.
Will the Minister of Transport ask the Perennial Committee to consider a point which has been ever present to my mind and to many hon. Members in this House, which is, whether or not it would be a wise thing to inflict some penalty in the taxation of motor vehicles in accordance with the speed in which they travel, and above all in regard to iron tyres, in the interests of sick people. There are thousands of motor vehicles going through our small villages with iron tyres at a high rate of speed, and they cause most infinite distress to those suffering from illness. Everybody who has to deal with hospitals implores me to devise some plan by which the Minister of Transport will be able to put a stop to this outrageous conduct. It is outrageous that houses should be shaken and damage should be done, and, above all, that sick people should be gravely injured in health through heavy vehicles travelling at 20 miles an hour on solid tyres. It would be quite easy to make the taxation penal upon solid-tyred vehicles proceeding at high speed. Incidentally, it would greatly decrease the damage to the roads. Above all, I plead for the sick people. I do hope this Committee in its Report will bear these facts in mind. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks), during the time he had these matters under his care, did much to secure that a proper system of taxation should be provided for road vehicles, and he says truly that the system which he inaugurated did provide work for the unemployed at a critical time; but he never took account of the 200,000 or 300,000 sick people who every night—and to-night—suffer incredibly from the rumbling of these heavy vehicles. All this would be saved if the solid-tyred vehicles were rigidly limited to the appropriate speed of 10 miles an hour, and the iron-tyred vehicles to four miles an hour. I appeal to my hon. Friend in the interests of sick people to bear this in mind, and to press Sir Henry Maybury to include that in the Report which will come from his Committee.
This unfortunate Departmental Committee, of which we have heard so much this evening, does not appear to have a single friend in the House. I do not propose to act in that capacity, but I would suggest to the Ministry of Transport that they should be cruel in order to be kind, and I commend to the Minister of Transport the series of very interesting historical facts on the subject of motor taxation given by the hon. and gallant Member for Bilston (Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury). He mentioned the "dictatorship" of the Ministry of Transport and told us how the then dictator, Sir Eric Geddes, using the methods which are characterictic of dictatorships, had failed. If there is still a dictator at the Ministry, hon. Member's will agree that we now have a genial dictator. I suggest that he applies his geniality towards this Committee in endeavouring to get them to meet at an early date and come to an agreement on their report. That appears to be the crux of the difficulty. In regard to the situation in the United States of America, I have recently received from most authoritative quarters some very interesting statistics on the situation in that country as far as motor vehicles are concerned. The number of motor vehicles in the United States, according to the latest return, is no less than 14,500,000, and against that we have to set the paltry number in this country, according to the very latest return, of only 1,079,000. Although, however, these figures show so wide a disparity, there is an equally wide disparity in the taxation to which the vehicles are subjected. In this country the average tax on motor cars is something like £12 10s. per vehicle, which corresponds more or less to the tax that is paid, under the present system, upon what is termed the light car, of which we see so many running about upon our roads. The average tax on the American vehicle is no more than £2 10s. I commend the difference in those figures to hon. Members opposite, because, as the Debate this evening has shown, no quarter of the House is more anxious that motoring should become more widespread and should form part, as it ought to do, of the daily life of the people. Reference was made, I think by the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Motion, to the American system of taxation, which is based upon a tax on fuel. So successful has this system proved in operation that, as I have said, the tax per vehicle is now no more than £2 10s. per annum; but that does not indicate the full measure of the success which has attended the introduction of this system of taxation. Quite recently the House of Representatives in the United States agreed to a most important remission of the taxation upon motor cars, and that remission, which I understand is to take place and become effective in the shortest possible time, amounts to the enormous sum of 24 million dollars. That indicates what can be done if this question is tackled in the right manner and in the right spirit in this country.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put.
I think the House is now ready to come to a decision.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That this House is of opinion that the present system of taxation of mechanically-propelled vehicles is inequitable, in that it bears no relation to the use and consequent wear-and-tear of roads, and recommends that a system of taxation based, in the case of petrol vehicles, on the use of motor spirit, and, in the case of steam and electric vehicles, on the weight of the vehicle, should be substituted therefor."
Motor Cycle Roads Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This is a Bill which no one really should object to because we seek to give powers to this country which are held by every other country in Europe. Our motor cycles are undoubtedly superior to those of any other country, but we suffer under a handicap in that the great races, which are such an enormous advertisement to an industry, must be held outside this country instead of in it.
It being Eleven of the Clock, further Consideration of the Sill stood adjourned.
Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Adoption of Children (No. 2) Bill
Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Local Government (Removal of Disqualification) (No. 2) Bill
Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill [Lords.]
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
West Indian Islands (Telegraph) [Money]
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient for the purpose of providing a system of telegraphic communication in and with the West Indian Islands and British Guiana, by means of submarine cables and wireless telegraph stations, to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums not exceeding £400,000 as may be required for such purpose, to authorise the Treasury for the purposes of such issue to borrow money repayable by means of terminable annuities, the principal and interest of which shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund; and to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the annual expenses of the said system."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Thomas and Mr. William Graham.
West Indian Islands (Telegraph) Bill,
"to make provision for the establishment and working of a system of submarine cables and wireless telegraph stations in the West Indian Islands and British Guiana"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]
Electricity (Supply) Acts,
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the parishes of Eastwood and Mearns, in the county of Renfrew, and parts of the parishes of Carmunnock and East Kilbride, in the county of Lanark, which was presented on the 21st day of February, 1924, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Eastleigh and Bishopstoke, in the county of Southampton, which was presented on the 12th day of February, 1924, be approved."
—[ Mr. Gosling. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
British Empire Exhibition (Strike)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. Kennedy. ]
I beg to call attention to the sudden, unexpected and wholly unreasonable strike which broke out among the building trade operatives at Wembley yesterday afternoon. This occurrence has been received with great regret in all quarters of the House. It is more than a domestic matter. This strike at Wembley will not cause inconvenience and distress to millions as did the omnibus and tram strike which came to an end this morning, but it will cause a feeling of shame among all patriotic people in these islands. It will inevitably delay the opening of the British Exhibition at Wembley, which is not a national, but an Imperial matter. It shows a smallness of outlook and a disregard for the reputation of this country which is lamentable. It has been undertaken with a levity and a wantonness which, I think, will be regarded as an insult to the whole Empire.
I have had it on information to-night that it will be impossible for the British Empire Exhibition to open on the 23rd instant, as had been advertised. By a tremendous effort, and in spite of the fact that the building unions had decreed last week that overtime was not to be worked at Wembley, the Exhibition authorities were confident that they would be able to carry out their time-table and open on the 23rd, as had been arranged. That will now be impossible. The longer the strike lasts the longer will be the delay. The delay is bound to be a material one in any case, because the whole programme has been put out of gear. The momentum which would have enabled the work to be carried to completion at the scheduled time has now been lost.
The Government cannot wholly escape responsibility in this unfortunate event. They have our sympathy that on their coming into office there should have been this long series of strikes. It is perhaps inevitable that it should have been the case. If they had not promised the Millenium, they would not now be faced with the difficulty of instilling reason and a sense of proportion into the minds of those who think, and, indeed, have been taught to think, that when a Labour Government comes into power they have but to ask to receive. It was therefore all the more essential for the Government to deal with the first of those strikes in a manner which would show that they were prepared to put justice and the public weal before party or private interests, and to act on that principle. They have done nothing of the sort. They have stood aside on each occasion and allowed the contending parties to fight it out among themselves. They have carried the policy of non-intervention to the point when they have allowed His Majesty's mails to be interfered with without protest from His Majesty's Government, and when finally they have intervened they have met force by concession. No more fatal policy could be adopted by any Government, and none could be more disastrous to a Labour Government. They will eventually, by this policy, invite more strikes, and they will bring down upon their shoulders the contempt and disgust of decent people of all classes. I see it reported in this morning's papers that speakers at the strike said that they were desirous of taking advantage of the position to force the hands of the employers, and that if the men did not strike at once their opportunity would be lost. This is the spirit which the Government is encouraging, and it is a spirit which will grow unless it is faced with firmness. It is a spirit that has developed to-day at Wembley into "peaceful" picketing, with the aid of brick-bats and threats to girl students to pull them off the scaffolding on which they were working, and will end, unless the Government change their attitude, in mob law and a total overthrow of the social system of this country. I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies in his place, and I hope he will give us an assurance on this matter. I would entreat the Government, for their own credit and for the credit of the whole country, to take the opportunity which this wholly unwarranted strike gives them to show to the strikers that there is a limit to their patience, as indeed there is a limit to that of the general public.
I regret that this strike should have given the opportunity for a party attack. To state that the Government is responsible for a long series of strikes is a monstrous perversion of the facts. I took the opportunity of pointing out only a night or two ago that the strikes that have taken place have taken place after months, and in one case years, of discussion, long before this Government came into office.
Does that apply to Wembley?
It is because these things do not apply to Wembley that I am protesting. I will not follow that argument farther. The question of the Wembley strike ought to be dealt with on its merits without reference to party or anything except a sincere desire to end the strike and not to provoke a continuation of it. I will tell the House the facts. It is incorrect to state, as the hon. Gentleman has stated, that the building unions have anything to do with the strike. The facts ought to be stated because unless we get the facts we are scarcely likely to get the result we desire. This strike is not an official strike. It is not in any way arranged by or consented to by the building trade unions.
The hon. Member never suggested that.
I did not say the building unions had anything to do with the strike.
I leave it to the OFFICIAL REPORT and to the House to judge as to whether an insinuation was made that the building trades unions were responsible. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If that be not the statement, if it be admitted that the 'building trades unions are not responsible, then I am satisfied; but if it be claimed that the building trades unions are responsible, then I controvert that statement.
I never said anything of the sort.
I cannot give way to the hon. Gentleman. Let me state the facts so far as they are known to the Ministry of Labour. We know that the strike has taken place. No investigation that we have made has shown any collusion or any consent on the part of the building trades unions to the dispute. The dispute is, in every sense, a regrettable one. All the machinery of the Ministry of Labour, and I think I may say all the powers of the Government, will be exercised towards bringing it to as speedy a conclusion as possible—a dispute that cannot be regarded by any section of the House as a dispute that ought to last one minute longer than is necessary. If hon. Members wish to inflame passion—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—if hon. Members desire as I do to take away passion and come to a settlement, let them take my assurance that everything that can be done by the Ministry of Labour will be done to bring this dispute to a close at the earliest possible moment, because the Government feel that this is a dispute that ought to be ended, and we will try to end it as quickly as we can. We cannot end it by making a partisan case, by making statements that are not justified, or by making political capital out of it. We can end it only by using our best endeavours, supported as we ought to be by every Member of the House, to end it in such a way as to lead to the exhibition being opened at the time it was due to open, and we can do that beet by keeping calm heads and using reason instead of making rash statements.
An authoritative statement was made by my hon. Friend (Sir P. Sassoon) that in consequence of the strike it was decided that the Exhibition will not open on the appointed day. I want to contradict that, because it would be most unfortunate, when there are hundreds of thousands of people coming from all parts to this Exhibition, if a statement of that kind went from the House without the contradiction which I feel bound to make. My hon. Friend had no authority whatever for making that statement. He knows nothing whatever about it. He had no right to make the statement. I join with him in deploring anything that will prevent the Exhibition being opened on the appointed day, and I would urge everybody outside the House and inside it to remember the obligation to the Empire in the matter. The second statement I want to contradict is with regard to brick bats. There was a rumour in the House to-night that buildings had been pulled down and damage done at Wembley. I felt it was my duty to ascertain first-hand what were the facts, and within an hour ago I spoke to the authorities, and I am speaking on their authority in stating that no damage of any sort or kind was done. I say that with authority. What did happen, and what I deplore, and what I hope will be avoided—steps will be taken to prevent it happening—is the fact that a number of young girls, artists, were interfered with. I cannot conceive how that would help the dispute in the least. I say that they had no right to interfere with them, and steps will be taken to see that they do not interfere with them again. But do not add to that by making all manner of wild statements such as have been made tonight about damage having been done and all that kind of thing.
I first give the assurance about the date, and I repeat that the hon. Member for Hythe (Sir P. Sassoon) had no right to make his statement. I contradict his statement emphatically. I contradict also the statement made generally about damage to the Exhibition. It is not true. It is necessary to contradict it, so that our Dominions will not be deceived. I have made the admission that there was interference with young girls, artists and others, but I repeat that steps are being taken to prevent that recurring. I hope that in this discussion nothing will be said that will render the task of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour more difficult of accomplishment.
I am, indeed, glad that the right hon. Gentleman supplemented the unnecessary and pontifical lecture delivered by the Minister of Labour to my hon Friend the Member for Hythe, who raised a question which, I am sure, the whole House would have wished to have raised. I think that every word the hon. Member said was completely justified, and no refutation was contained in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It is a well-known aphorism that when you have a poor case you attack the other man's attorney. It is an old practice in which a new party are rapidly becoming adepts. When the Colonial Secretary rose, what I hoped for was a practical contribution to the discussion showing what was to be done in order to achieve the result which everyone wishes. That is to make it perfectly certain that this exhibition will be opened on the appointed date. It is admitted even by the Minister of Labour that this is an absolutely unauthorised strike, and I sincerely hope that, with or without his assistance, it will be brought to a conclusion at the earliest possible moment. But the really relevant thing, with a view to ensuring that the Exhibition opens on the appointed day, is not merely that these negotiations shall take place, but that the fullest protection shall be afforded to all those people in every different class of art who are now engaged at Wembley. I got nothing from the Minister of Labour on the subject—[An HON. MEMBER: "That is your fault!"] It was not my fault. All I got from the Minister of Labour was a totally unnecessary lecture to my hon. Friend. I ask that there should be afforded, to all those who are willing to work at Wembley to achieve the consummation we all desire, the fullest protection, and that there will be an assurance that to-morrow those who are willing to work, shall be able to work without any interference.
I call the attention of the House to the warnings uttered by the hon. Member for North Salford (Mr. Tillett) in this House some weeks ago as to the dictatorship prevalent at the Wembley Exhibition. Warnings were given here as to impending disputes. As a matter of fact, although this dispute is unofficial, when an official attended at Wembley yesterday to meet the men and obtain a resumption of work, he was peremptorily ordered away from the buildings. It was that which lined up the men—that insult to the official who went there to get them back to work. The House knows that there is a dictatorship going on at Wembley that is a disgrace to the community. There is no man other than the licensee who can take photographs inside Wembley. There are people trying to get stands put up and they can only do so under the consent of this dictatorial body; in fact, Mac-Alpine and Company—I give the name—are a body of dictators that the British workman will not stand. Yesterday when the best efforts were being made to end a dispute that was growing and an official of the union went there he was peremptorily ordered away and the strike is as much in support of the official as against the concern.
As a labourer working in the trade for a considerable number of years, I want to get down to brass tacks. I am as much a supporter of the idea of this Imperial Exhibition as any Member of this House, and I would not like to see anything done to jeopardise its success, but you must remember that working men have memories as well as other people, and that after four years of perpetual reductions in wages, and after attempts being made to make the conditions of the workers worse, the men are getting a bit of their own back. That is really the secret. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] Yes, and you have got your own back—£2,000,000,000 reduction in wages in four years.
Where?
In Great Britain, and the Empire, not the Trocadero. Because now the workers see an improvement or a possibility of improvement, you will say that they have no right to strike. Tell us now, is a workman simply a slave that he must work when you tell him he must, or that he must wait and starve when you think he ought to? We do not want to stop him from working, as a lot of you will never start doing—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about yourself?"] It is many years ago since I—
It being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.