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Commons Chamber

Volume 171: debated on Thursday 3 April 1924

House of Commons

Thursday, April 3, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Manchester Ship Canal Bill,

Petition for additional Provision; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Appeals

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the dissatisfaction existing on account of the present inability of ever having an Appeal Tribunal case re-opened under any circumstances, he is now in a position to announce the result of his reconsideration of this matter?

I regret I am not yet in a position to add anything to the statement made in reply to the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) on the 20th March, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication of how soon he expects to be able to come to a decision on this most important matter?

I am afraid it is not possible to give any definite pronouncement, but we are making the fastest possible headway with the consideration of the suggestion.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he can now make any statement as to the solution of the problems raised by the Final Awards Regulations, especially with regard to ex-service men who have had a recurrence of disabilities after the period of their final appeal has lapsed?

I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the answer I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for East Rhondda (Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan) on the 27th March, of which I am sending him a copy.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the many cases of tuberculosis which appear to arise subsequent to the claims being turned down upon other grounds, and does he not consider that these are cases which require further examination?

Yes, Sir, I am quite aware of the fact stated by the hon. Member, and I think he will find there is another question on the same subject.

Is the Minister in a position to hold out any hope of either the Royal Warrant or the Regulations being changed to allow of these cases being dealt with?

As I said in reply to the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) on Question No. 1, I am not able to make any definite pronouncement to-day.

asked the Attorney-General how many appeals have been heard by the House of Lords Tribunals during the last year, and how many of these have been disallowed?

During the year 1923, 74,124 appeals were heard by the Pensions Appeal Tribunals for England and Wales, of which 36,864 were disallowed.

asked the Minister of Pensions how many appeals there have been during his term of office, or since 1st January, 1924, to 31st March, for reconsideration of ex-service men's cases who had previously been turned down by House of Lords Appeal Tribunals; what has been the result of these appeals; and will he state what steps, if any, he intends to take to re-open cases where reasonable grounds for allowing an appeal are shown?

No record is available of the precise number of cases that have occurred during the period referred to. I fear that as regards the last part of the question I cannot yet add anything to the statement I made in reply to the question addressed to me by the hon. Member for West Willesden on the 20th March, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Educational Grants

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, as a result of his recent conference with the Special Grants Committee, any modification in the Regulations governing the issue of educational grants to the children of deceased sailors and soldiers has yet been decided upon?

The position in this matter is still as indicated in the reply I gave to my hon. Friend on Thursday last.

Children Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the hardship inflicted upon widows of men who have died as a result of injuries or disease due to war service who, left with young children born subsequent to discharge, receive no pension for such children; and whether he will consider the desirability of making such amendments in the Royal Warrants as will enable his Department to issue pensions in respect of all children under 16 years of age of a deceased sailor, soldier, or airman whose death was attributable to war service, whether the children were born before or subsequent to discharge?

I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. P. M. Oliver) on the 28th February, of which I am sending him a copy.

Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders (Captain Macarthur)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Captain A. J. Macarthur, of Edinburgh, of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, was deprived of his wound pension of £63 per annum when he had no other means of support, and if he will inquire into this case?

The facts are not as stated in the question. In 1921 an Order of Court was made directing that one half of this officer's disability retired pay should be administered otherwise than by payment to himself. This Order was recently revoked by the Court, and since the 4th February last the disability retired pay has been paid direct to the officer without deduction.

Detention in Lunatic Asylum

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he received a communication dated 29th February, 1924, from a certain pensioned ex-officer, Lieutenant A. D., at that time an inmate of Haydock private asylum, Newton-le-Willows, Lancashire, in which that officer asked for a medical examination and inquiry into his case with a view to showing that he was perfectly sane; what is the reason why this officer was, in October, 1923, summoned to a Ministry of Pensions hospital at Knotty Ash, Liverpool, in order to proceed to the Isle of Wight for convalescence, and that instead of that he was taken to the above-named asylum without his wife or any of his relatives being informed of his removal thereto; why was he detained as a lunatic until 4th March, 1924, upon which date he escaped and, after remaining in seclusion for the statutory interval of 14 days, recovered his freedom; is he aware that this officer was awarded 100 per cent. disability for severe wounds, and that the pension is now being held up, if not entirely stopped; and will he cause inquiries to be made with a view to taking action for remedying these matters?

I regret to say that this officer, who had been awarded disability retired pay at the maximum rate, had, after admission to Knotty Ash Hospital to be transferred, under an urgency order, to a mental hospital. The proposed convalescent treatment could not therefore, be proceeded with. As the hon. Member states, the officer escaped from the mental institution, and as this happened about the time of receipt of the letter referred to in the first part of the question, the medical examination he asked for could not be made. With regard to the last part of the question, whilst the officer was in the mental hospital arrangements were made for payments due to him to be made to his wife, but in the present circumstances payment will be made to him direct.

Widows and Orphans

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that, when a pensioner has been in receipt of a part pension and he dies leaving a wife and family behind, the pension stops automatically and no provision is made for the widow and children, and that in similar cases where a gratuity has been awarded in lieu of pension and the pensioner dies before the gratuity has been paid no payment is made to his dependants; and what steps does he intend to take to remove this grievance?

Disability pensions are payable only to the end of the week in which the pensioner dies. The Royal Warrant provides for the grant of pension to the widow and children on a claim being made and substantiated. Where the compensation awarded takes the form of a gratuity and the man dies before payment is made, the amount is credited to the deceased man's estate.

Richmond Park and Orpington Hospitals

asked the Minister of Pensions the number of empty beds in Richmond Park and Orpington hospitals, respectively; and whether and how he proposes to utilise these hospitals in the future?

The numbers are 36 and 67 respectively, all of which are, however, allocated to patients about to commence treatment. It may not be necessary to retain the hospital at Richmond Park after next autumn, but there is at present no prospect of the accommodation at Orpington ceasing to be required by my Department.

Ex-Service Men

Trainees

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the cases of hardship caused to those ex-service trainees who have been advised and permitted by the Ministry to enter upon and have carried through the fullest period of training allowed by the Ministry in certain trades, namely, inter alia, upholstery and cabinet making, and who are now refused a grant from the Civil Liabilities Fund to enable them to set up business upon the ground that their training is insufficient for this purpose; and whether he is prepared to reconsider this matter?

I have been asked to reply. The training given in furniture making is ordinarily designed to fit men for employment and not for setting up on their own account. A Civil Liabilities grant in addition to training can be given only in exceptional circumstances, and if the local technical advisory committee recommend it. The particular committee which the hon. Member has in mind has refused to recommend certain applicants for grant, because they considered that the men had not sufficient experience or that there was no scope for a new business. I shall be glad to inquire into any individual case if the hon. Member will give me particulars.

Is the Minister aware that this particular technical advisory committee has invariably refused applications for grants?

I am not aware that such is the case, but if the hon. Member will supply me with particulars of a case in which he thinks a mistake has been made, I can go into the whole matter.

Poor Law Relief

asked the Minister of Health the number of ex-service men, with their dependants, receiving out-door relief; the number resident in workhouses; and the number charged to local rates in mental institutions; and whether he will take the necessary action to make these a national charge so that no ex-service man should be forced to appeal for Poor Law assistance?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which was given on the 26th March last in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. G. Edwards).

Can the hon. Gentleman give the number of ex-service men who are unable to get possession of their own houses, in which they have invested their savings?

Tuberculosis

asked the Minister of Pensions what action he proposes to take to assist those ex-service men who suffer from tuberculosis, but who for one reason or another have lost their pensions and who, nevertheless, still suffer from, and are receiving treatment for, the disease?

I am not in a position at present to take any general action, but each case as individually presented is investigated with exceeding care, and the general question will be further considered in the light of these cases.

Government Departments

Ministry of Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions whether the head of the officers' friend branch will be given the opportunity of refusing to take redundant officials who are appointed to his Department without consulting him and whom he does not think suitable for that particular job?

As I informed the hon. and gallant Member on the 27th ultimo, no redundant official transferred to another branch will be retained in that branch if he is unable to perform his work efficiently, but I am unable to accept the suggestion that the head of any particular branch in which there is a vacancy should be permitted to refuse a redundant official, who has performed his duties efficiently in one branch, an opportunity of showing his fitness in another for which he possesses qualifications.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this branch needs very particular qualifications and that it has to deal with the Admiralty and the War Office?

I am quite aware of those facts, and I am paying due regard to the suggestions which have been made.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that 28 per cent. of the officers employed in the officers' friend branch are to go; whether the head of the officers' friend branch was consulted before these officers were dismissed; and whether he is aware that two-thirds of the officers that are to go from the Ministry of Pensions are taken out of the officers' friend branch, where officers of experience with special qualifications are necessary?

Four officers' friends out of a total staff of 17 are under notice; the head of the branch was consulted before the notices were issued. Excluding Medical Services, there are now only two members of the Ministry temporary staff with Service pensions of over £500 outside the officers' friend branch, one of whom is under notice.

Will the Minister pay particular regard to the staffing of this branch; is he aware that this branch performed most useful and sympathetic service, and will he see that it is not unduly depleted?

Is the hon. Gentleman going to fill the four vacancies caused by these dismissals, by redundant officials, without any knowledge whatever of this particular kind of work?

Air Ministry

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many temporary staff in his Department have been established without examination in the last two years; and how many of these were ex-service and non-service men, respectively?

As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

following is the reply:

The answer to the first part of the question is 181; to the second, that of these, 93 were ex-service men, 68 were non-service men, and 20 were non-service women. Of these, 40 ex-service men and 28 non-service men and women were employed in the Meteorological Office prior to its transfer to the Air Ministry, and, although unestablished, were regarded as permanent, and were pensionable under a Meteorological Office pensions scheme. Forty-two others (18 ex-service men and 24 non-service men and women) were appointed to the Meteorological Office after its transfer to the Air Ministry, and were especially excused, owing to previous educational attainments, a qualifying examination, which other late-comers to the Meteorological Office had to pass prior to establishment. Six non-service post-war entrants (industrials) have also been established. The remainder of the total of 181 consists of pre-war Government employés.

Inspector of Taxes Office (Dumbarton)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the accommodation in the office of the inspector of taxes at 31, High Street, Dumbarton, is quite inadequate for the business to be transacted; that this has resulted, together with deficient heating arrangements, in excessive sickness amongst the staff; that there are no facilities, other than the inspector's private room, to interview callers, with the result that taxpayers do not receive the privacy for their affairs generally conceded by the Department; that, owing to lack of accommodation to house lock-fast cupboards, the papers relating to assessments are only stored on open shelves, and that these premises were only accepted in 1919 by the Inland Revenue Department on the understanding that they would meet the requirements only temporarily; and will he take steps to see that accommodation more in keeping with the importance of the district, and more adequate to the health needs of the staff, is provided without further delay?

I am making inquiry into this matter, and will communicate the results to my hon. Friend in due course.

Administrative Class

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that appointments to the administrative class of the Civil Service are being given to temporary civil servants, under paragraph 31 of the Third Interim Report of the Lytton Committee, which would otherwise have been filled by permanent Civil Servants of very much longer service who had qualified by examination in open competition; and whether he is prepared to extend the period during which appointments may be made from the 1921 administrative class examination?

The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the open competition of 1921 for the administrative class of the Civil Service was the only opportunity which for nearly 10 years had been accorded to lower-grade permanent civil servants to compete for such appointments; how many of these permanent civil servants had been offered appointments as a result of the examination; whether the first place on the waiting list of qualified candidates arising from the competition in question is held by one of these Civil Service candidates; and if it is proposed to close down the waiting list before appointments have been offered to any of the qualified lower-grade permanent civil servants who, at great personal expense, had competed thereat?

This question appears to be based on a misapprehension. The competition of 1921 was an open competition and it would not be right to make a separate category of the permanent civil servants who competed thereat. The list issued in connection with this examination was not a list of qualified candidates, but a list in order of merit which was originally intended to fill any vacancies arising within six months of the examination. No candidate on the list who has failed to secure appointment has any claim to be regarded as qualified, and I am satisfied that it would not have been in the public interest to keep the list, which has been closed after special extension to the 31st March last, open any longer.

Disposal and Liquidation Commission

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the completion of its work by the Disposal and Liquidation Commission, he can state the number of the staff engaged on such work at the close of operations; and whether they have been discharged owing to reduction of duties or absorbed in other branches of the Civil Service?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given to the hon. Member for Guildford and the hon. Member for Tradeston on the 20th and 31st March respectively. I may add that I hope to lay upon the Table shortly a White Paper dealing with the work, and giving details of the staff, of the late Commission.

Permanent Executive Posts

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the reason for the creation of 900 permanent executive posts; whether, since the promotion of permanent officers, when no vacancies were available, is opposed to the practice of the Civil Service, he proposes to take any action to secure that these irregular promotions shall not prevent competent ex-service men employed for several years on executive duties being absorbed into the permanent establishment?

The hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension. There has been no such creation of permanent executive posts, or such irregular promotions as he suggests. As regards the claim for appointment of ex-service temporary clerks to executive posts I would refer to the answer which I gave on the 6th March to the hon. Member for Oxford.

British Empire Exhibition

Women and Girls (Welfare Department)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps are being taken by the welfare department of the British Empire Exhibition in connection with the large numbers of women and girls to be employed at Wembley?

I am informed by the British Empire Exhibition authorities that staff institutes with rest rooms of which women superintendents will be in charge have been erected for their own women employés. Two special rooms are also being constructed for the women staff of exhibitors and concessionaires, and I understand that one will be supervised by the Girls' Friendly Society and the other by the Young Women's Christian Association.

Women Police

asked the Home Secretary whether, during the time of the British Empire Exhibition, in view of the large number of overseas visitors, he will consider a temporary increase of women constables in London and the creation of temporary appointments at Wembley, with a view to safeguarding the interests of our Dominion visitors?

The arrangements have not yet been settled, but any women police whom it may be decided to employ at the Exhibition will be additional to the establishment now serving.

Metropolitan Police

asked the Home Secretary whether the British Empire Exhibition authorities have applied for any Metropolitan police to police the exhibition grounds, buildings, and approaches; if so, can he state approximately how many police will be so employed; if they will receive any extra allowances over their ordinary rate of pay; and whether all the cost of such police will be charged and paid by the Exhibition authorities?

The police to be employed at the Exhibition will receive their ordinary pay and any allowances to which they may be entitled under the Regulations, and the cost will be borne by the Exhibition authorities. It would be unusual and, I think, undesirable to give the number of additional police to be supplied.

If extra police are required for these purposes, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether some of the police pensioners cannot be utilised?

I would have to confer with the Commissioner of Police on that point.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that some women police are employed?

Treatment of Animals

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will give this House any information as to the proposed steer wrestling and other contests to be decided at the British Empire Exhibition, Wembley; and whether any protests have been received against any contests likely to involve cruelty to animals?

I beg to refer the hon Member to the reply which I gave yesterday in answer to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. A. T. Davies).

In view of the unsatisfactory answer, I beg to give notice that on the Motion for the Adjournment on Monday night, or as early as possible, I shall draw the attention of the House to this matter.

Strike

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Labour if he is in a position to tell the House anything about the strike at Wembley?

I am informed that, after a visit paid by an official of the Building Trade Union this morning, the strike is at an end.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the men have gone back to work on the same terms or whether they have secured an increase of wages?

That I cannot say. My information is confined to the fact and the statement that the strike is at an end.

Is there any foundation for the report which has appeared in the newspapers that violence has taken place?

My information is that the stories about violence are quite unfounded and in every respect misleading.

Irish Free State (Naturalisation of Aliens)

asked the Home Secretary if he will bring in legislation to define the position with regard to the naturalisation in this country of aliens who have become citizens of the Irish Free State under Article 3 of the Irish Free State Constitution?

I do not think any question of legislation arises. Persons such as those whom the hon. and gallant Baronet has in mind are in the same position as other aliens as regards naturalisation in Great Britain. If they desire it, they must comply with the statutory conditions as to residence here, which include the requirement that they must have been in this country at least one year before they apply.

Does that answer mean that the present position of aliens who have become citizens of the Irish Free State is in accordance with our naturalisation law; and. if not, what steps are the Government going to take?

Women Police

asked the Home Secretary the number of police authorities throughout the country who are employing women police?

According to the latest available returns (dated September last), the number of police authorities employing one or more women police was 34. The numbers employed in the several forces were in most cases small, and exceeded six in only two forces—the Metropolitan Police and the Lancashire Police. Detailed particulars will be found in Table I appended to the Reports of His Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary.

Election Forms (Printing)

asked the Home Secretary whether, in placing recently the order for bulk printing of election forms at the Harrow printing works, any opportunity was given to other printing houses to tender for the work; and whether, in view of the fact that such work has hitherto been performed locally, he will arrange that such an opportunity shall be provided in future?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As to the latter part, I may refer my hon. Friend to the reply on this subject which was given on the 14th February to questions by the hon. Members for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Murrell), Harborough (Mr. Block), and Montrose Burghs (Mr. Sturrock).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there is a good deal of local discontent among printers because all these orders are now given to wholesale firms in London, and the local printing firms are no longer able to compete?

Have the whole of the election forms been printed at the Harrow works?

Scotland Yard, Special Branch

asked the Home Secretary whether any changes or reductions have taken place in the Special Branch at New Scotland Yard?

Factories Inspection

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the report of the inquest on John Bole, aged 41, Leicester Road, Fleckney, whose death was caused by falling into an unfenced fly-wheel pit at Messrs. Wolsey's (Limited) works; that His Majesty's Inspector of Factories had given instructions for the fencing, of this machinery in December last, and that his instructions had not been carried out; if he will inquire why an inspector did not return within reasonable time to see that the work had been completed; if his attention has been called to the case reported in the "Aberdeen Press and Journal" on 22nd March, when Messrs. A. R. Watson and Company, Morayshire Sawmills, Elgin, were fined for neglecting to fence a feed-shaft of a circular saw in accordance with the regulations, and that a boy had lost his life through this neglect; and whether he is satisfied that the present staff of inspectors is large enough to inspect adequately the factories and workshops of this country?

I have seen reports on both the cases mentioned by the Noble Lord, but it does not appear from the information in my possession that an increased inspecting staff would have made any difference in these particular cases. On the general question I cannot do more than refer him to the reply I gave to his similar question on Tuesday last.

Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate an immediate increase in the number of factory inspectors; and is he aware that many of his colleagues in the last Parliament made very strong speeches on the subject?

Education

New Hall Lane School, Liverpool

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that there are at least 300 children awaiting admission to the New Hall Lane Roman Catholic school, Liverpool, plans of which were submitted to the Board of Education in November last; and whether he will expedite the approval of the plans?

The Board are satisfied as to the need for the new school, and returned the plans on the 24th March last with certain criticisms and suggestions. The matter shall be dealt with as expeditiously as possible when the plans are again received.

Students (Training Colleges)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he can give any information as to the approximate number of students who will be leaving the training colleges in July next?

The number of students who are expected to leave training colleges in England and Wales next July, is approximately 7,310 (1,890 men and 5,420 women).

Irish Teachers (London County Council)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can now make a statement upon the position of Irish teachers in the service of the London County Council whose salaries have recently been reduced by the amount hitherto paid them in respect of teaching service in Ireland?

I am now in a position to deal with cases of the kind mentioned in the answer I gave to the hon. Member's question of the 18th March.

Teachers' Widows and Orphans (Pension Fund)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether there is any provision for a teachers' widows and orphan pension fund; and, if not, what steps he proposes to take to provide such a fund?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The establishment of such a fund as that proposed by the hon. and gallant Member would be an entirely new feature in superannuation schemes for teachers, and I cannot commit the Government to introduce it by legislation.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think any scheme is complete unless there is provision for a widows and orphans' pensions fund?

I understand the Emmott Committee considered the proposal and made no recommendation.

Cottenham Park School, Wimbledon

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, seeing that the local education authority and the managers of Cottenham Park School, Wimbledon, have, after full consideration, unanimously resolved that on educational grounds it is desirable that the infants at this school, numbering less than 120, should be under the charge of a fully qualified woman head-assistant teacher, with two assistants, and should not be organised as a separate department under a head teacher; that the persons responsible for and familiar with education in the locality have expressed their opinion that the appointment of a separate head teacher over these infants will result in serious difficulties in the changes of organisation required to bring the system of central schools and continuation classes into force; that the Board of Education have intimated that if the managers continue in accordance with what they consider right to refrain from appointing a separate head teacher the Board will stop payment of part of the grants in respect of this school; and that the Wimbledon education authority has for over 10 years maintained another school organised with over 150 infants under an assistant teacher with no separate head teacher, with results which have been most favourably reported on by the officers of the Board, he will consider the matter, with a view to meeting the wishes of the education authority and the managers in what they consider is educationally sound?

The arguments stated in the question were laid before the Board by the hon. Baronet and a deputation of the local education authority and managers on the 4th March. After full consideration of the case presented by them, I see no reason to depart from the previous decision.

Dismissal of Teacher (Stalybridge)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the full circumstances under which an annual payment of £44 is being made to a married woman teacher at Stalybridge as compensation for dismissal on account of the regrouping of schools?

This teacher was dismissed from her appointment under a reorganisation effected under the Education Acts, 1918 and 1921, and she appealed to the Treasury under Section 120 of the Local Government Act, 1888, as applied by those. Acts against the refusal of the Stalybridge Corporation to award her compensation. In the exercise of their statutory duty under those Acts and after considering the representations of the parties the Treasury felt bound to determine that she was entitled to an annual allowance of £44, which is liable to suspension or abatement in accordance with the statutory provisions in the event of her obtaining other public employment.

Industrial Disputes

Public Services

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any proposals to make to Parliament relating to the prevention of strikes in industries that gravely affect the public welfare and directly interfere with or stop the public services?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the inconvenience, loss, and suffering caused to the public in the London area during the recent strike by the stoppage of tramcars and omnibuses, he proposes to take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent the recurrence of such a state of affairs; and why the Government did not provide protection for the general public during this recent strike by organising a service of transport to take the place of the tramcars and omnibuses thrown out of operation by the strikers?

The Government are convinced that disputes of this kind not only cannot be prevented by means of legislation, but that any attempt in this direction could not fail to be disastrous. As regards the second part of the question by the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Hughes), no course other than that which they adopted would, in their opinion, have assisted in securing the settlement which was reached by agreement between the parties to this dispute. The Government's handling of the dispute saved the London public much inconvenience and disturbance.

Are the Government going to take any steps to consider the possibility of a further development of the present conciliation methods, without going so far as compulsory arbitration, so as to ensure that an impartial inquiry should be held before extreme measures are taken, in order that the public and those engaged in the disputes should have an impartial report before them?

Short of compulsory arbitration, I think my right hon. Friend will agree that, in respect to using the machinery for investigation and report, this Government have gone very far ahead of any preceding Government, and we shall continue to avail ourselves fully of the existing machinery according to the merits of each recurring trouble.

Do I understand that the Government will not consider any extension of the machinery?

Arising out of the reply to me about the handling by the Government of the recent dispute, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is grave dissatisfaction at the manner in which the Government dealt with it, and their delay?

Does not my right hon. Friend think that, if the power to strike were taken away from the wage slaves, they would be compelled to accept any wages offered them?

May I ask if it was clearly understood that I was not suggesting anything in the way of compulsory arbitration to take away the final right to strike?

Have the Government considered the Canadian system, which provides for an interval between a report and the actual strike?

Dockers (Decasualisation)

asked the Prime Minister if the Committee which was to be set up in accordance with the terms of settlement of the recent dock dispute to inquire into the questions of decasualisation and maintenance has yet been constituted; if he can state the names of the Committee and the terms of reference; when the first meeting was, or will be, held; and whether the Committee is expected to report during the present Session of Parliament?

I have been asked to reply. With regard to the first and second parts of the question, I would refer to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon). It is hoped to arrange the first meeting immediately, and I have no doubt that the Committee will press on with its work as rapidly as possible, but I cannot forecast the period which it may find necessary for arriving at conclusions and making its report.

Trade Disputes Act, 1906

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the repeated strikes, to the grave detriment of the community, he will take steps to repeal or modify the Trade Disputes Act, 1906; and, if for any reason he does not consider this desirable, he will inform the House if the Government intend to take any action in the matter?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. This Act has nothing to do with these disputes. As regards the second part of the question I have nothing to add to the reply which I have given this afternoon to similar questions by the hon. Members for Woolwich West and Peckham.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether this country is to be governed by Parliament or tyrannised over by trade union officials?

Police and Prison Officers (Discipline)

asked the Home Secretary whether all police and prison officers have the right of appeal to him on disciplinary decisions; and, if so, in what instances, if any, is the appeal allowed to be made by the officer in person?

Prison officers have the right to appeal, 'but the appeal must be made in writing. As regards police officers, the whole question of appeals is now under discussion with representatives of the various sections of the police council. There is no right of appeal at present.

In the course of the revision of the Regulations, will it be borne in mind that an appeal in person is far preferable to an appeal in writing?

Housing

Uninhabited Houses

asked the Home Secretary whether he will state the number of uninhabited houses recorded by the police in the last returns; the dates of the returns; and when the next returns will be made?

I regret I am not able to give the figures, as I understand no such return is made by the police.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries into this matter, as these returns are submitted annually to the local committees by the police, and the information contained in the returns would be exceptionally useful?

Evictions

asked the Attorney General whether any extra Courts are now being held in the County of London to deal with pressure of business owing to litigation with regard to possession of houses under the Rent Restrictions Act, 1923?

There has been considerable increase of business in the County Courts in the Metropolitan area, and it has, in consequence, been necessary to in crease the number of Judges available. This increase is partly due to the additional defences open to defendants by reason of the Rent Restrictions Acts; to the increased power of remission given to the High Court by the County Courts Act, 1919; and to a general revival of litigation since the War.

Has the Attorney-General now been able to expedite the getting of the figures with regard to orders for possession and evictions?

I have not been asked for any figures, but if any hon. Member likes to address a question to me on the matter I will see if it would be possible.

Has not the Minister of Health undertaken to go into the matter in consultation with the Lord Chancellor?

I was not aware of that, but if he did I have no doubt that it will be done at once.

In view of the increased amount of business, partly due to the Rent Restrictions Acts, is the Lord Chancellor taking any action under Section 11 of the Rent Restrictions Act of last year?

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that Messrs. Simkin and Company, of 113, Upper Street, Islington, N., have been ordered by the Court to surrender possession of the premises on 30th June; whether he is aware that the landlord who claimed possession on the ground of hardship has premises at 74, Upper Street, with 10 rooms over, in addition to business premises at Croydon and elsewhere; that Messrs. Simkin and Company have occupied 113. Upper Street, Islington, since 1887 and carried on the business of picture-frame making in Islington for 60 years; and whether it is proposed to make any amendment of the Rent Restriction Act, 1923, which will prevent small tradesmen being evicted from their homes and deprived of their livelihood?

My right hon. Friend's attention has not previously been drawn to the case referred to. As regards the last part of the question, small tradesmen are already protected by the Rent Restriction Acts if the premises they occupy include dwelling accommodation. It is not proposed to apply these Acts to purely business premises.

Building Societies

asked the Minister of Health the particulars of the amount of money now invested in building societies in England; the number of members of such building societies; and the number of houses built or purchased through the agency of building societies subsequent to the year 1919?

I have been asked to reply. I am informed by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies that the amount of money invested in building societies in England in 1922 was £77,975,000 by way of shares and £18,597,922 by way of deposit, that the number of members was 786,489, and that these figures are the latest available. I have no information as to the number of houses built or purchased through the agency of building societies.

Clubs, Monmouthshire

asked the Home Secretary the number of clubs in Monmouthshire at the time when the Sunday closing of public-houses was commenced in that county; what the number is now; and whether he can give similar statistics respecting the county borough of Newport?

The sale of intoxicating liquor on Sundays in licensed premises was first prohibited in Monmouthshire by Order of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) in May, 1916. "Licensing Statistics" show that on 1st January of that year there were 64 registered clubs in the county of Monmouthshire, and 18 in the county borough of Newport; and that on 1st January, 1922, the figures were 102 and 26 respectively. The volume for 1923, which is now in preparation, will probably show 124 and 32.

Is it not a fact that, notwithstanding this increase of clubs, there has been a great diminution of convictions for Sunday drunkenness since the public-houses were closed on Sundays in Monmouthshire?

Football Cup Tie, Wembley (Police)

asked the Home Secretary what number of police have been applied for and allotted to the Stadium and its approaches at Wembley for the football cup tie on 26th April; and whether the whole cost of such police will be borne by the football authorities?

A very large force will be employed at the Stadium and on the various roads and approaches, but I do not think I should give the precise figures. The police employed at the Stadium will be at the cost of the exhibition authorities, and those engaged in controlling the traffic on the roads outside will be at the cost of the Police Fund.

May I inquire, in view of past experience, whether the police authorities at New Scotland Yard are satisfied that the numbers of police applied for are in accordance with the requirements which are likely to arise?

Armenian Refugees

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of repeated pledges made in the past by the British Prime Minister and by the Supreme Council of the Allies, as well as by the Assembly of the League of Nations, in favour of the establishment of a national home for the Armenians, the British Government will follow the example of the French Government and assist by a grant the establishment of Armenians now in Turkey in the territory near Erivan offered to them by the Russian Government; and whether any other assistance will be given by His Majesty's Government to these Armenians?

I presume that the hon. Member is alluding to the scheme, which was recently brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government by the League of Nations, for the settlement of a limited number of Armenian refugees, at present not in Turkey but in the countries surrounding Turkey, on undeveloped land in the territory of the Armenian Republic of Erivan. His Majesty's Government are endeavouring to obtain detailed information regarding the proposal from Moscow. Pending a reply to their inquiries on this point, they can take no further action in the matter. Meanwhile, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which was given on this subject to the hon. Member for Hackney North (Mr. J. Harris) on 25th February last.

Could the hon. Gentleman ascertain what the other States, members of the League, are doing—including France?

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state what sums other Governments have actually promised towards the proposal to resettle the Armenians south of Erivan; and whether, if it is not available, the Government will await this information before pledging this country to financial support?

So far as His Majesty's Government are aware, the only sum definitely promised towards this scheme by a foreign Government up to the present is that of 335,000 French francs offered by the French Government on 10th January, 1924. In reply to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the last part of the reply which was given to the hon. Member for North Hackney (Mr. J. Harris) on 25th February last.

Is it not the case that other countries are waiting to see what this country proposes to do in this matter; and could not we give a lead?

King Hussein

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a telegram from King Hussein suggesting fresh discussions, with the object of concluding the treaty of friendship between Great Britain and the Hedjaz; if so, what reply has been sent; and whether he can make a statement to the House as to the progress of the negotiations?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; the answer to the second part of the question is that it has not yet been possible to deliver the reply of His Majesty's Government to King Hussein, as His Majesty has been travelling from Trans-Jordan to Jeddah, and pending its delivery I cannot properly divulge its terms. With regard to the third part of the question, I have nothing to add to my reply of 25th February to the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks).

Unemployment

Insurance Bill

asked the Prime Minister when the Government will introduce their Unemployment Insurance Bill for extending the benefits which begin to expire on the 16th instant and which they promised to introduce this week?

I have been asked to reply. I am introducing to-day a Bill dealing with a number of points in connection with unemployment insurance, and, owing to the need for immediate action for the extension of benefit after 16th April, I am also giving notice to-day of the introduction of a separate short Bill dealing with this point.

Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to proceed with the shorter Bill immediately?

Will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that on Monday morning the Bill will be printed?

Public Utility Work

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government has any scheme for alleviating unemployment by providing work of public utility; if so, can he give particulars of the same; and will he take steps to put it into immediate operation?

I have been asked to reply. In replying on the 26th March to the right hon. Member for the Rusholme Division (Mr. Masterman) I have an outline of the steps which had been taken by the Government towards the provision of works of public utility for the relief of unemployment. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the relevant portion of this reply. A Committee of the Cabinet is now discussing certain schemes and will make definite recommendations to the Cabinet at an early date.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bring before the Cabinet the suggestion that the best way to relieve unemployment is to reduce taxation?

Miners' Minimum Wage Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce a Miners' Minimum Wage Bill?

I can add nothing to the statements made by the Prime Minister on the 24th March in reply to questions on this subject.

Is there any foundation in fact for the recent threatening speech reported to have been delivered by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood)?

Restoration of Order in Ireland Act

asked the Prime Minister whether the Committee appointed in July, 1923, to review the provisions of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act has made any Report?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Committee has finished its sittings?

Seeing that one of the members has become a member of the present Government, has he remained on the Committee, or has his place been filled? There were three members, of whom Lord Chelmsford was one.

No, the place has not been filled up; but the only point in this question is whether or not a Report has been received.

Will the Deputy-Leader of the House give us an assurance that the extraordinary powers which reside under these Regulations in the Government will now be entirely abandoned by this Government?

No, clearly not. As to the other question of the hon. Gentleman, I should like to have notice.

Is it contemplated that this Committee shall no longer continue its sittings?

It is not contemplated. As I pointed out, the only point in the question put to me was as to whether or not a Report will be issued.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know anything at all about the operations of this Committee?

Do the Government intend to get rid of these extraordinary powers without reference to any Committee?

Import Duties, Australia

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Australian Government are reconsidering the operation of the Australian Industries Preservation Act, Section 9, which provides a dumping duty, protecting British manufacturers in cases where foreign goods are imported into Australia at a price below the British domestic price, in view of the fact that the British Government imposes no similar protection in its own market; that recent applications made to the Australian Government for this preferential treatment have been subject to delays owing to the fact that the articles involved are not included in the Schedule of the Safeguarding of Industries Act; and whether he will state the policy which His Majesty's Government intends to adopt in order to secure for British industry its full measure of preference in Australia?

I have been asked to reply. I have no official information as to the attitude of the Australian Government in regard to the point raised in the first part of the question, nor am I aware that delays have occurred for the reason given in the second part. As regards the third part, the grant of preference in Australia to British industry is a matter for the Commonwealth Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that hundreds of workpeople are walking the streets of this country to-day out of employment because this preference is not recognised by us?

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that many people have lost their employment because the Australian Government have refused a British order at a lower price than their own people tendered?

Peeresses Bill

asked the Prime Minister if the Government will give facilities for the Second Reading and subsequent stages of the Peeresses Bill?

Inasmuch as the bulk of the party of the right hon. Gentleman voted in favour of the hereditary principle, is he not going to do something to facilitate this Bill?

World Raw Materials

asked the Prime Minister whether it is part of the policy of the Government to place in the hands of the League of Nations power to remove the economic roots of strife by rationing the world's raw materials of coal, of iron, and of oil; and, if so, what steps he has taken towards the realisation of this programme?

This question was considered by the League of Nations and I would refer the hon. Member to the Report of the Economic Committee, dated September, 1921, on "Certain aspects of the Raw Materials problem," which came to the conclusion that the establishment of an international office for the distribution of raw materials was impracticable.

May I take it that the Labour leaflet I hold in my hand represents the policy of the Government?

Members of Parliament (Railway Passes)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the proposal to issue to each Member a yearly railway contract to and from his constituency, and in view of the fact that the average number of occasions on which a Member who does not reside in his constituency visits the same does not exceed six or eight times a year, that a yearly contract is only economical if it be used at least once a week, and that a yearly contract would cover a period of several months during which Parliament is not sitting, he will favourably consider, in the interests of economy, a proposal to issue to Members return railway vouchers on demand?

All these points are being considered, but nothing can be settled until this House has signified its wishes.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the electors have not had any opportunity of approving or disapproving of the policy to give Members of Parliament free railway tickets, he will defer the decision on this matter till after the next General Election?

No, Sir. The Government see no reason for adopting this suggestion. The House, I hope, will have an opportunity of settling this matter before Easter.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the taxpayers have a right to consider this question fully as they are naturally concerned with it?

Will the Deputy-Leader of the House, for the information of hon. Members, give them a little idea of what happened in 1920 with regard to this particular question when as a result of an examination—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]

University of London

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Report of the deputation from the University of London which he received on 14th March will be issued as a Parliamentary Paper?

Beer (Standard Barrels)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of standard barrels of beer brewed during the nine months ending the 31st December, 1923, and the number for the corresponding period in 1922; and whether the increase shown is in accordance with the estimated increase allowed for in last year's Budget?

With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The number of standard barrels of beer brewed in Great Britain and Northern Ireland by brewers for sale during the nine months ending 31st December, 1922 and 1923, respectively, was a follows:—

Standard barrels.

1922

14,592,992

1923

15,497,137

War Histories

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount expended to the end of the financial year 1923–24 on war histories; what has been the exact nature of the work produced during the last financial year for which an expenditure of £15,128 has been incurred, and of the work expected to be produced during the present financial year the estimated cost of which is £16,538; and when the work will be finished?

With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the answer, which is a long one, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The answer is as follows:

The total amount expended on war histories up to the end of the last financial year is approximately £60,000.

The histories in course of preparation during the past year are as follows:

Naval Operations.

Military Operations:

Seaborne Trade.

Merchant Navy.

War in the Air.

The following volumes were published during the year:

Volumes II and III of Seaborne Trade.

Volume I of Mesopotamia Campaign.

Volume III of Naval Operations.

Work will be continued during the present year on the histories specified above, with the exception of the history on Seaborne Trade which is now concluded. It is hoped to issue the following volumes in the course of the year:

Volume II of Mesopotamia Campaign.

Volumes II and III of Western Front, 1914 and 1915.

Volumes II and III of Merchant Navy.

It is not yet possible to state when the work on the official war histories will be completed.

Budget Surplus

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the large surplus of approximately £48,000,000 accruing at the close of the financial year just ended, he will consider the advisability of giving relief to the taxpayers from numerous burdens by introducing a Bill which shall carry forward this surplus to the 1924–25 account instead of applying it automatically to the reduction of Debt?

Forestry Institute (Oxford University)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any of the funds which support the forestry institute of the University of Oxford come from public sources; and whether he is prepared to give equal advantages from public funds to forestry institutes in other universities?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Forestry Commissioners are collaborating with the University of Oxford to set up, as recommended by the British Empire Forestry Conferences of 1920 and 1923, a central institute for post graduate and specialissd training in forestry. The institute will be assisted from the Commissioners' Forestry Fund. As the name indicates, only one institute of the kind is required, and further special expenditure of public funds on similar institutes could not be justified. It is not proposed to alter the existing system of aiding forestry schools in universities from the Forestry Fund.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think he could do anything better than set this institute up in the greatest university in the world?

Income Tax (Trade Unions)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the amount of Income Tax paid by trades unions for the year 1922–23, the amount reclaimed on appeal to the Inland Revenue Commissioners, and the actual amount refunded under the charities exemption provision?

I regret that I am unable to state the total amount of Income Tax paid by trade unions, or the amount reclaimed by them. The amount of tax repaid to them in the year 1922–23 was £102,250.

Agriculture

Small Holdings, Buckingham

asked the. Minister of Agriculture the number of smallholders in the county of Buckingham; the average size of each holding; and the number of applicants for holdings who are unable to secure land?

The number of smallholders provided with land by the Buckingham County Council under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908–1919, and still in occupation, is 495, the average size of the holdings being 22 acres. 121 ex-service men who applied before 1st December, 1920, and, therefore, received preference under the Land Settlement Scheme, one ex-service man who applied after 1st December, 1920, and 18 civilians, have been approved and are awaiting land.

asked the Minister of Agriculture the total area' of land acquired for small holdings since 18th December, 1918, under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908 to 1919; what was the total price paid for the land, including costs of acquisition; and what was the total rateable value previous to acquisition?

The total area of land acquired for small holdings since the 18th December, 1918, under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908–1919, and still retained, is 258,552 acres. Of this area 216,873 acres have been purchased for cash at a total cost of £9,635,076, including costs of acquisition. The remainder has been either purchased for annuities or leased. I have no information as to the total rateable value of the land prior to acquisition.

Would the right hon. Gentleman call for a return as to the rateable value, considering the great interest there would be in a comparison between the price paid and the rateable value?

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that foot-and-mouth disease has broken out at Upper Gambolds Farm, Stoke Prior, near Bromsgrove; whether he can give any indication of the source of the disease; and what measures have been taken to deal with it?

Yes, Sir. The outbreak was reported, confirmed, and the stock of 38 cattle slaughtered on 26th March. Infection was probably brought by some indirect means from outbreaks on two adjoining farms. No contact through human agency can be traced. The usual precautions as to disinfection, etc., are being taken to prevent the spread of the disease.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has any knowledge of the outbreak of this disease in South Derbyshire, and what steps have been taken?

asked the Minister of Agriculture if an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has been confirmed at Dairy House Farm, Austerson, Nantwich; what was the number of cattle slaughtered; and is this outbreak attributed to any particular cause?

Yes, Sir. 119 cattle and 7 pigs have been slaughtered. There have been other outbreaks in close proximity, but no traceable connection between them and this outbreak can be established.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give any information as to the recent outbreaks of foot and-mouth disease at Syston and Shoby, in Leicestershire; and whether he can state the cause, where the infection came from, and the number of animals that have had to be slaughtered?

The outbreak at Syston was confirmed on 27th March, and 86 cattle have been slaughtered. The outbreak at Shoby was confirmed on 31st March, and nine cattle have been slaughtered. In neither case has the source of infection been established.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any information as to the reasons for the extension of foot-and-mouth disease at Quinton, Northamptonshire; what were, the methods of disinfection used in the case of the original outbreak; and whether he is satisfied that they were as effective as it was possible to make them?

It is difficult to trace any connection between the first outbreak at Quinton on 8th March, amongst cattle at pasture nearly a mile from the owner's home premises, and the extension among stock in the buildings, where disease was confirmed on 23rd March. All the cattle in the first outbreak were promptly slaughtered and the premises disinfected in accordance with Articles 5 and 6 of the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Amendment Order, 1922. Every precaution appears to have been taken to prevent the spread of infection.

Questions

Postcard Photographs (Rates)

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that postcard photographs, which for many years have been carried at book post or printed matter rates, are now being charged at ordinary rates on the ground that the postcards bear the usual printed words on the address side; and if he can see his way to withdraw this Regulation?

A card which conforms to the conditions of the printed paper rate is transmissible at that rate, even though it has "Postcard" printed on the address side. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any case in which a postcard photograph appears to have been wrongly surcharged, I will have inquiry made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public are in entire ignorance as to the exact nature of these Regulations, and that the Regulations are seriously affecting employment in the picture postcard industry, and are also detrimental to the Post Office revenue; and will he cause them to be removed as soon as possible?

Lovell Estate

asked the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring, as representing the Charity Commissioners, in view of the frequent inquiries made during the last 16 months in respect of the Lovell estate, and that important documents have been lost, how long it will be before the accounts are presented; and will he use his influence to get the matter expedited?

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the answer given to his question on the same point on the 27th ultimo, to which I can add very little. The Commissioners are informed that the accounts will be presented before the end of this month. As has been explained in the answers given to the hon. Member on the 8th March and 11th July, 1923, the steps to be taken for the establishment of the charities require the sanction of the Court, and in this connection the case is in the bands of the Attorney-General, and not of the Commissioners.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 15 years ago a large sum of money was left for almshouses for workpeople in certain parts of Bedfordshire, and nothing has yet been done?

I am fully aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member, but I wish to point out to him that it is not the fault of the Commissioners, but is due to there being no trustees to act under the will.

Engineers (Emigration)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can supply any statistics of skilled engineers who have left this country in the past year to take up work in the United States of America and other countries?

The classification of emigrants according to their occupations has been completed only for the first nine months of last year. During that period the number of British emigrants, of 18 years of age and upwards, who left the United Kingdom for non-European countries and who are classed as "skilled trades—metal and engineering," was 20,509, of which number of 12,207 were taking up permanent residence in the United States of America.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what additional number took up their residence in various parts of the British Empire?

Roads (Reconstruction)

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the development of road transport and the probability that this will necessitate the reconstruction of the main arterial roads of this country within the next 15 to 20 years, any steps have been, or will be, taken by his Department to consider the question of dealing with the problem on national lines?

All aspects of the problem of communication by road in this country, and the effect thereon of transport developments, are kept under continuous observation in my Department. It will be within the knowledge of the hon. Member that since the establishment of the Road Fund, these questions have in fact been dealt with to a very large extent from a national standpoint.

Ethiopia (Raids from Abyssinia)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that in September last Her Majesty Zeouditou, the queen of the kings of Ethiopia, assured the sixth commission of the League of Nations of her competence to maintain order and good government throughout Ethiopia, and at the same time undertook to supply the' League of Nations with any information it might require upon matters of concern to the League, His Majesty's Government will instruct its representative appointed to attend the next meeting of the Council to ask that' body to invite observations from the Abyssinian Government upon the violent invasions into territory under the administrative control of a fellow member of the League of Nations?

Information in regard to these incidents has already been supplied to the League, but His Majesty's Government do not propose to invite the intervention of the Council, unless a continuance of the raids should threaten the good understanding between the States concerned.

Jurors (Expenses)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the hardship inflicted upon many working people by being called upon to serve on juries without remuneration; and whether, in view of the fact that in many cases the juror is absolutely dependent upon his earnings, he will take whatever-steps are necessary to provide for payment for jury service?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on Thursday last to a question on this subject by the hon. and gallant Member for Barnstaple.

American Consulate, Newcastle-On-Tyne

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to the recent negotiations with the United States Government in regard to the closing of the American Consulate in Newcastle-on-Tyne; if these negotiations have been successful in removing the deadlock that had existed for the previous 20 months, and, if so, if he will state the terms of the settlement, and when will the Consulate be reopened?

I would refer the hon. Member to the exchange of Notes with the United States Ambassador, the text of which has appeared in this morning's Press. The United States Government have applied for an exequatur for a United States Consul at Newcastle-on-Tyne, and I have no doubt that the Consulate will be reopened in the near future.

Treaty of Lausanne

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statement reported to have been made yesterday in the Canadian Parliament by Mr. McKenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada, with reference to the attitude of the Canadian Government to the Treaty of Lausanne denying that that Treaty imposes obligations on Canada, and whether that report is in accordance with the information which was in the possession of the Government when he made his statement to the House on Tuesday last?

I have only just received notice of this very important question, and it has been quite impossible for me to find out what Mr. McKenzie King actually said. I think it would have been far better to waft, as I have asked my right hon. Friend if he would do, until I had the information.

May I ask whether, if I put a question down for Monday, he hopes by that time to be able to give an answer?

I believe the right hon. Gentleman has been informed that that will be so.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister, with reference to the Debate on the Treaty of Lausanne, which is to resumed next Wednesday, if he will be able to lay papers containing the communications between himself and the Dominion Premiers on the subject of the Treaty?

I have been asked to reply. The Government propose to take the resumed discussion on the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill on Wednesday next. As regards the remainder of the question, I have been in consultation with the Prime Minister, who cannot undertake to lay on the Table of the House the documents in question. It would be impossible to do so before Wednesday's Debate, as the prior concurrence of the Dominion Premiers would be required. In any case, no useful purpose would be served by laying these papers, the substance of which was given to the House by the Prime Minister in the course of his speech last Tuesday.

Is it not reasonable that the House should have the same amount of information on this very important subject as it had upon Singapore, before the Debate on that subject?

In view of the statement made by the Foreign Under-Secretary in opening the Debate on this Bill that we are now entering upon a new era of full disclosure, are we to understand that the refusel of these Papers in an indication of the sincerity of the professions of the Government?

Business of the House

Can the Deputy-Leader of the House say what business has been arranged for next week?

On Monday we shall take the War Charges (Validity) Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means, and the Trade Facilities Bill—Committee.

Tuesday, Second Reading of a Bill, which will be introduced to-morrow, to extend the periods for which the receipt of unemployment benefit during the current benefit year may be authorised under the existing law; and, if time permits, the West Indian Islands (Telegraph) Bill—Second Reading—and the Pacific Cable Board Bill—Second Reading.

Wednesday, Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill—adjourned Debate on Second Reading.

Thursday, Poor Law Emergency Provision Continuance (Scotland) Bill, Second Reading; Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill—Report. We hope also to make progress this day with other minor Orders to be announced later.

How far does the right hon. Gentleman propose to go with the Votes to-night, and is he in a position to give us any information as to the Adjournment at Easter?

I am not yet able to name the precise date as to the Easter Adjournment, but I shall be able to do so, no doubt, very early next week. As to the other part of the question, our intention is to ask for the suspension of the Eleven o'clock rule, so as to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair and proceed with Six Votes on the Paper.

I am referring to the first six votes. Great inconvenience would be caused to the public service if these Votes were not taken to-day. They relate to public works and buildings; with which it is desirable to proceed at once.

Are the Government prepared to give facilities next week for the Prevention of Eviction Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Withington (Mr. E. Simon) or, alternatively, to proceed forthwith with that part of the Government Bill discussed yesterday which repeats the same provisions, as the Bill of the hon. Member for Withington?

If I answer the second part of the question, the first part of the question will not require a reply. My answer to the second part of the question is that in view of the House sitting until a very late hour this morning, there has been no opportunity of reaching a decision and making an announcement, but we hope to do so to-morrow.

In view of the fact that there have been more eviction orders granted in Glasgow in six weeks than in the whole of England in one year, will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the grave urgency of this problem; and in view of the fact that most of the people affected in Glasgow belong to the poorest section of the community, who are least able to defend themselves, will he consider or will the Government consider bringing in an early Bill to preserve these people in their homes in the City of Glasgow?

Those considerations were before our minds when I explained that we are hastening to make some announcement to-morrow.

Before this Bill is put down again—and we hope it will be as soon as possible—will the right hon. Gentleman make an earnest endeavour to get the number of evictions which have actually taken place? It can be done if he will take the trouble.

I am not familiar with the course that would have to be taken in order to get that information, but I agree that it is information which the House should have if possible.

Are we to understand that the Deputy-Leader of the House will make a statement to-morrow which will cover the question of evictions of unemployed workmen as well as evictions for the right of possession?

I am afraid that I cannot reply definitely to that question at the moment, and would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to wait until the statement is made.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings of the Committee of Supply be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Mr. Clynes. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 114.

Division No. 45.]

AYES.

[3.58 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hobhouse, A. L.

Rendall, A.

Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.)

Hoffman, P. C.

Richards, R.

Alstead, R.

Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Hudson, J. H.

Ritson, J.

Ayles, W. H.

Isaacs, G. A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Baker, W. J.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Banton, G.

Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

Romeril, H. G.

Barclay, R. Noton

Jewson, Dorothea

Rose, Frank H.

Barnes, A.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Royce, William Stapleton

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Royle, C.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Black, J. W.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Bondfield, Margaret

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Scrymgeour, E.

Bonwick, A.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Scurr, John

Briant, Frank

Keens, T.

Seely, Rt. Hn. Maj.-Gen. J. E. B. (I. of W.)

Bromfield, William

Kennedy, T.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Kirkwood, D.

Sherwood, George Henry

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Shinwell, Emanuel

Buchanan, G.

Lansbury, George

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Buckle, J.

Laverack, F. J.

Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington)

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Law, A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Cape, Thomas

Leach, W.

Sitch, Charles H.

Church, Major A. G.

Lee, F.

Smillie, Robert

Clarke, A.

Linfield, F. C.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Cluse, W. S.

Livingstone, A. M.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Loverseed, J. F.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Costello, L. W. J.

Lowth, T.

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Cove, W. G.

Lunn, William

Spence, R.

Crittall, V. G.

McCrae, Sir George

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Stamford, T. W.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

M'Entee, V. L.

Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Dickson, T.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Sullivan, J.

Dodds, S. R.

Maden, H.

Sunlight, J.

Duckworth, John

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Dukes, C.

March, S.

Tattersall, J. L.

Duncan, C.

Marley, James

Terrington, Lady

Dunn, J. Freeman

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dunnico, H.

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Maxton, James

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

Egan, W. H.

Millar, J. D.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

Mills, J. E.

Thornton, Maxwell R.

England, Colonel A.

Mitchell, R. M. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Thurtle, E.

Falconer, J.

Montague, Frederick

Tinker, John Joseph

Finney, V. H.

Morris, R. H.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Turner, Ben

Foot, Isaac

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Varley, Frank B.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Morse, W. E.

Viant, S. P.

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

Mosley, Oswald

Vivian, H.

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Gilbert, James Daniel

Muir, John W.

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

Gillett, George M.

Murray, Robert

Warne, G. H.

Gosling, Harry

Naylor, T. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Nichol, Robert

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Nixon, H.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

O'Grady, Captain James

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Weir, L. M.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Welsh, J. C.

Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

Palmer, E. T.

Westwood, J.

Groves, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Parry, Thomas Henry

Whiteley, W.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

Wignall, James

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Perry, S. F.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Hardie, George D.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B. (Kennington)

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Phillipps, Vivian

Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks)

Harris, Percy A.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Potts, John S.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Windsor, Walter

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Purcell, A. A.

Wintringham, Margaret

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Raffan, P. W.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Hayday, Arthur

Raffety, F. W.

Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

Hayes, John Henry

Rathbone, Hugh H.

Wright, W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Raynes, W. R.

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

Rea, W. Russell

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Mr. Spoor and Mr. Frederick Hall

NOES.

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Harland, A.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Hartington, Marquess of

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustava D.

Berry, Sir George

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Betterton, Henry B.

Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Blundell, F. N.

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Stanley, Lord

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Hiffe, Sir Edward M.

Steel, Samuel Strang

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Brittain, Sir Harry

Jephcott, A. R.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Bullock, Captain M.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Sutcliffe, T.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford Henley)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Lamb, J. Q.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Lane-Fox, George R.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Lorimer, H. D.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Chapman, Sir S.

Lumley. L. R.

Waddington, R.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

McLean, Major A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Cope, Major William

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Wells, S. R.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Mitchell, W. F (Saffron Walden)

Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Eden, Captain Anthony

Pennefather, Sir John

Wise, Sir Fredric

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Penny, Frederick George

Wolmer, Viscount

Ferguson, H.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Remnant, Sir James

Gretton, Colonel John

Rentoul, G. S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Commander B. Eyres-Monsell and

Colonel Gibbs.

Bills Presented

Pawning of Industrial Tools Bill,

"to amend the Law relating to the pawning of tools, instruments, or appliances used in connection with any trade or handicraft," presented by Mr. VIANT; supported by Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Lindley, and Mr. McEntee; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11th April, and to be printed. [Bill 99.]

Lead Paint (Protection Against Poisoning) Bill,

"to make better provision for the protection against Lead Poisoning of Persons employed in painting buildings," presented by Mr. HENDERSON; supported by Mr. Rhys Davies, to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 100.]

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (No. 2) BILL,

"to amend the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1924," presented by Mr. SHAW; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Sidney Webb, Mr. John Wheatley, the Attorney-General, and Miss Margaret Bondfield; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 101.]

Chairmen's Panel

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. Short to act as Chairman of Standing Committee C. (in respect of the National Health Insurance (Cost of Medical Benefit) Bill).

Report to lie upon the Table.

ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION BILL [Lords]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 98.]

CONSOLIDATION BILLS (SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [Lords]

Report and Special Report from the Joint Committee, in respect of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consoli- dation) Bill [ Lords ](pending in the Lords), brought up, and read, with Minutes of Evidence.

Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords

Indian Affairs,—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of Eleven Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to examine and report on any Bill or matter referred to them specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider with a view to reporting, if necessary, thereon any matter relating to Indian affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India; and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.

Orders of the Day

Supply

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1924–25

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—[ Mr. Spoor. ]

Agriculture

I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words this House only in January last, gave some further figures. He said: which the farmer has to meet. If the arable farmer cannot make agriculture pay, if he cannot find a market for his produce which will secure for him a decent living, the only result is that he allows the land to go back to grass, or, if I may quote the words of Lord Long:

Take another aspect of this question. Each year for the last year or two we have imported £500,000,000 worth of foodstuffs into this country. I have a vivid recollection of a speech made by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) very shortly after I entered this House in which, in a very telling phrase, he described the situation of agriculture in this country by saying that we had built a huge superstructure of industry upon a weak and tottering foundation of agriculture. I find that on 15th November, 1920, the same right hon. Gentleman stated: of the hope of peace. We all hope for peace, we all hope that conditions some day may arise in which war will no longer be possible. But until that day comes we have to consider the possibility of war. It is not too much to say that the first attack by an enemy against us in the future, as far as anybody can visualise war, will not be against warships or airships or even armies, but will be entirely against our food supply. There have been many complaints made against the farmers' methods. We have been told that he is antiquated in his ideas, that there is bad farming, that he does not go in enough for co-operation and all the rest of it. There may be a certain amount of truth in it. But co-operation—and we have had a long Debate on this subject this Session—in the farming industry will not put agriculture upon its feet, nor will wages boards or any of these other things about which he have heard so much. We have got to face the simple fact that, unless the arable farmer can have secured to him a satisfactory market, with a reasonable prospect that it will remain satisfactory, he will not produce the foods, and the land will go back to grass.

I do not propose to-day to enter into a long discussion on the question of co-operation. I only wish to say that co-operation has not always been a success, and that the conditions in this country are utterly different from conditions in some of those countries in which co-operation has been the greatest success. Then as to wages boards, I do not wish to oppose their establishment or enter into details of wages boards. There is no person in this House who does not want to give better wages to the agricultural labourer, but the mere establishment of wages boards will not secure that. The fact is that you cannot make an industry pay out more than the industry has got. You cannot force the farmer to employ labour. Therefore, the position is that we may establish wages boards, and they may be satisfactory, and we may get over all our troubles in that respect, but they will not bring the farming industry into a prosperous condition. I wish to make these remarks as little provocative as possible, and therefore I will not refer in any detail to the proposals that were put before the country by the Conservative party at the last election. I have much more interest in referring to the position of the present Government and its pledges about farming. I would like first to draw attention to the fact that the Socialist party are particularly committed in this respect. The election manifesto of that party stated that agriculture was office eighteen months ago. Co-operation is not a new thing. We have hoard all about it. I am afraid that the provision of professional gentlemen, however expert, to teach fanners to keep accounts will not put agriculture on its feet. Apparently, according to the Prime Minister, farmers have to solve their own problems by applying their own energy.

I do not think therefore that it is in the least unfair for me to say that this House has arrived at a time when it can justly ask the present Government what their policy is. We were told that the land was to bloom like a rose. How were these things to come about. On 18th February the Prime Minister again changed his ideas, having passed the days of the Election, and having passed the days of these wonderful promises as to the future of agriculture, and he said that the Government would like advice and guidance from practical men who would make suggestions for placing agriculture on a sound, scientific and businesslike footing, and the Minister of Agriculture, after stating in this House that he was going to put agriculture on a sound economic basis joins the Prime Minister in this panful appeal and says: regulate the imports of foodstuffs as to prevent prices rising—

I shall be very glad to describe the method, but my difficulty is that if I go into details now I shall be called to order.

The hon. Member is quite right. He must not deal with legislation, and his proposals would require legislation.

How is it possible to regulate the import of foodstuffs without interfering with the export of manufactured articles?

I am afraid that under Mr. Speaker's ruling I am not able to answer that question on this occasion. I would like the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who takes a great interest in this subject, to consider whether it is not possible, in the way which is referred to in a speech I made a month ago, to do what I have suggested. That speech illustrates the method, to some extent. In view of Mr. Speaker's ruling, I am afraid I have now to leave the most interesting part of what I had to say. It is right and proper to point out the position in which we are and to mention the fact that we have no possible lead from the Government, and I was naturally anxious to put in front of them a constructive policy as far as I could do so. I will now turn to one or two things to which I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Agriculture. The first relates to railway rates. Let me read an extract from the Linlithgow Committee's Report:

"The general impression we have received from our evidence is that the railway companies should now pursue a far more progressive and adaptable attitude towards agriculture. … Under the Railway Acts, the value of the commodity carried is one of the factors to be taken into consideration in fixing rates, and there appears to be an urgent need for a revision of the rates applicable to certain classes of produce, the prices of which are low, in order that the charges may form at any rate no heavier a proportionate charge than those obtaining in pre-War circumstances. There are many signs of the new spirit of progress in which railway managers are setting themselves to meet the industrial needs of the country, and we are satisfied that equal benefit would result from its extension to agriculture."

I realise two things. The Government, as a Government, have no power to interfere with railway rates, but if they have not legal powers there is no doubt that they have moral powers in the matter, and they could do a very great deal. I realise the railway companies' difficulties. Wages and stores and everything cost more than in pre-War days. None the less, I think it would be possible not only to make reductions but to readjust the rates.

I wish for some information. It is quite evident that the hon. Member knows the subject thoroughly. Can he give one instance of one article, and say what it cost per mile per ton or per lb., and what was the market price and what the selling price?

The hon. Member will realise that it is very difficult even to follow that question. If I were a Minister of the Crown I would say that I required notice of it. I would be glad to try to get such information for the hon. Member if he would ask me for it privately. I can give illustrations which may meet his point. Let me refer to an answer to a question given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport last year. He said that the rate for old potatoes in bulk from Spalding to King's Cross had increased from 8s. 8d. per ton in 1913 to 18s. 1d. per ton in April, 1922. The rate was subsequently reduced to 13s. 4d.

Would the hon. Gentleman tell us the comparative prices of those old potatoes between those two particular dates? That is important.

I do not know that that is a very important matter from the point of view of my statement. It is very important for the farmer. I can say, however, that at the time in question the potatoes were worth almost nothing at all; they were a glut in the market at the time. I want only to draw attention to the point in the Linlithgow Report, and hon. Members can elaborate it as much as they like. Another matter to which I would direct attention is the question of sugar-beet. I am particularly interested in this question, because last year the constituency which I represent, practically 50 per cent. of which is agricultural, was engaged very closely in promoting—when I use that word I should say that it was a promotion not necessarily intended to be profitable to the promoters—a sugar-beet factory. After considerable trouble that factory was practically assured, but the scheme was not proceeded with at the time of the last General Election because it was not known what the policy of the new Government was to be. I understand that there are similar instances in other parts of the country. Here, again, I am entitled to refer to statements which have been made by Members of the Government. The National Farmers' Union sent a telegram at the time of the General Election to the Prime Minister in the following terms:

"Sugar-beet growers anxious to know whether, if returned to power, you will continue existing remission of Excise Duty on home-grown sugar. Shall be glad of your reply."

The reply of the Prime Minister was "Yes." But although Member after Member of this House has asked questions on the subject, and has asked for confirmation as to the attitude of the Government, the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer repeatedly has been that he cannot anticipate his Budget statement. The consequence is that this particular factory, and, I have no doubt, other factories, are entirely held up until it is known what is to be the policy of the Government. This is not a small matter. The late Minister of Labour said:

"If only one quarter of the sugar imported into this country were produced here, 300,000 acres would be under cultivation growing sugar-beet, 30,000 additional men would be employed on the land, and probably 2,500 more in factories permanently, and in seasonal employment 12,000 more. Without tariff adjustment the present start would never have been made with the sugar-beet industry."

The whole prosperity and future of that industry depends upon a declaration by the Government of their policy. We have been waiting for it for months. Now it is probably almost too late to erect this factory even for next season. Time is passing.

Is it not a fact that the factory is already established, and that a party from this House visited the factory at the invitation of the same company?

I am speaking of Kidderminster. There the factory has not been begun.

Does the hon. Member infer that the Government is behindhand with its business?

What I mean to infer is perfectly simple—that the Prime Minister gave a definite promise at the Election. What I ask, in plain language, is, Is that another promise gone West or not? Is the promise to be made good or not? I am asking whether "yes" means "no" or whether it means "yes." I do not want to put these things in any heated way, but definite statements have been made, and surely the House is entitled to know. I might tell hon. Members opposite that my information is obtained from the "Daily Herald," amongst other sources. The last thing to which I would draw attention is merely a suggestion, but one which, I think, it would be worth the Minister's while to take into consideration. It is that in certain specialised grain-producing areas, as in the Eastern Counties, would it not be possible, either by co-operation or by direct help, or by means of private enterprise, to bring about a system of grain elevators? Grain could be stored and dried in these elevators, warehouse receipts would be issued against the grain deposited, and these receipts would be immediately available for loans from the banks, thereby providing more capital for the farmers. I do not make a great point of it, and put it forward merely as a suggestion.

The Labour Government have told us over and over again that, once in power, they could bring forward Measures which would immediately put agriculture upon its feet, which would make the land blossom like the rose, and make everybody happy. The position of the farmer and of the agricultural labourer to-day is probably worse than it has ever been. What do the Government intend to do to improve the position? Will the Minister of Agriculture take this opportunity of telling us? It is not a party matter at all. There is no party in the House that is not interested in the question and that is not anxious to improve the position. Is there not now a chance for the Government to bring forward some Measure which will have real effect? In the words of 100 and more years ago, let the right hon. Gentleman say to himself, if not to us:

In rising to second the Amendment, so ably and forcibly moved by my hon. Friend, it might appear that in urging the claims of agriculture in this House we were trying to force an already open door. Those of us who are interested in this matter—and who in this House, at a time like this, is not interested in this vital subject?—have had a certain amount of encouragement, and a certain amount of hope—encouragement because this House, during the present Parliament, has been given so much time for the consideration of agricultural questions; encouragement that at last the newspapers of the country have discovered that agriculture is, after all, good copy, and it is not left merely to the agricultural journals which specialise in that form of literature; encouragement at the thought that now there are, no doubt, people in the country who are aware that we have an agricultural industry, people who, not long ago, were in entire ignorance of the subject. And we have felt a certain amount of hope that, perhaps, out of this, some real result might come. That encouragement has been tinged with caution; that hope has been tempered with fear—caution because some of us remember that old tag,

The hon. Member who moved this Amendment went into a considerable amount of detail as to the present con- dition of agriculture, and made some suggestions which he was careful to keep within the rules of debate as laid down by you, Sir. I propose, with the permission of the House, to outline a few thoughts on this very difficult problem from a more general point of view. After all, there are only two alternatives for this or any other Government in the matter. The first is one which would, at least, commend itself to the vast majority of Members below the Gangway opposite. That would be a policy of masterly inactivity, a policy of leaving an industry, whether agriculture or any other, to work out its own salvation, to stew, so to speak, in its own juice, even if, as a result, farmers one after another went into bankruptcy, arable areas were still further reduced in extent, wages could not be paid on an economic basis, and still further numbers of agricultural labourers had to leave the country, drift into the towns, and swell the already overcrowded ranks of our unemployed there. This would be very regrettable, but far better than that by the shadow of a shade we departed from the sacrosanct doctrine of Free Trade.

The other alternative must be some form of assistance to the industry, and, in this connection, I would like to suggest what is a mere truism, that any interference by Government, or anyone else, with the application of the untrammelled laws of supply and demand are an interference with the doctrine of Free Trade. You may call it what you like, but it is not Free Trade. If you lower the rates on agricultural land, if you give special railway rates, if you advance loans to farmers at a rate of interest below the current and proper economic rate of money, if you establish a minimum wage, which is an uneconomic thing with industry as it is, or if you regulate hours and conditions of employment, all these things are departures from the freedom of the laws of supply and demand, and it is no good blinding our eyes to the fact, and say we do not touch Protection when these absolutely fundamental facts are incontrovertible. The Prime Minister on more than one occasion, and his Government also, have stated that they will have nothing to do with policies of Protection or of subsidies.

May I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether we shall be able to discuss the subject of Protection and Free Trade in this Debate?

Protection in the sense of a tariff would certainly require legislation, and, therefore, is out of order.

My point, if I may be allowed to explain it, is that if these subjects are to be mentioned in any colourable way in connection with the opening of the Debate, we are handicapped if we are not allowed to deal with the subject effectively afterwards.

With your permission, Sir, I shall endeavour to skate. Looking at this broadly, and not from a party point of view, in my opinion there are only two real alternatives. One is to leave the thing entirely alone, which is Free Trade, not in a party spirit; and the other is to come to some form of assistance, which is Protection in its broadest sense—I do not care what you call it. I was going to say that anything in the nature of direct subsidies is not a thing that appeals to me, because it seems to be in the nature of a charitable dole, or, shall I say, a hypodermic injection, in many cases necessary to save the life of a patient in a crisis, but in no conditions a steady diet for that patient, if you want to pull him through the disease from which he is suffering.

I want to come to another consideration. It sometimes seems to me that in this age there are two outstanding, unforgivable crimes, and the realisation of those two, or, at least, one of them, is fundamentally at the bottom of the difficulty whenever we approach the question of agriculture and agricultural prosperity. The first of those crimes to-day is to be successful. There was a time when, if a young man went into a career, whether commercial or professional, and made a success of it, he was held up as an example to the country, as a benefactor to the people, as one who had increased the wealth of the nation as a whole, from which alone employment and prosperity can be given to our people. To-day such a one is an object of obloquy. He is alluded to as having amassed gains out of the groans of men and the tears of women. If anyone wishes to raise a charge of criminality against agriculturists today, no one conversant with the conditions can possibly charge them with the crime of success. The other absolutely unforgiveable crime is to have anything whatever to do with land. Immediately you begin to deal with the question of land, you bring round you a horde of preconceived prejudices or views.

Of course, there are varying degrees of criminality with regard to land. The arch-criminal is the landlord. We heard something of him in this House yesterday afternoon. It matters not how he acquired his land; whether he paid for it much more than its value or much less; whether he inherited it; whether he got it out of his hard-earned savings—these things matter nothing. If he is the owner of land, in the eyes of a good many people—I am not criticising anyone in this House—he is, ipso facto, a criminal. Secondary in degree of criminality is the tenant farmer. He is not one who should be sent to transportation for life, but should have a long term of penal servitude. Even the third individual in the triple alliance which makes agricultural prosperity possible, namely, the agricultural labourer, is himself not above suspicion, whether it be because he is temperamentally conservative—I speak with a small c, not a capital c—or whether it has proved, perhaps, not quite so easy to organise him as it was at one time hoped by some. The fact remains, he has still got a little touch of that tar-brush of crime attached to him, and, therefore, this prejudice, this preconceived starting-point, whenever we deal with the agricultural industry, makes it almost impossible to be able to think with a clear mind free from these other trammels. That is the difficulty, and one of the main difficulties with which the Minister of Agriculture is faced in any of the schemes he wishes to evolve for the welfare of the agriculture industry, because just so long as at the back of your housing scheme—anybody's housing scheme—there is the idea that you are going to penalise certain people, because they have dared to hold a certain kind of property, it will stultify your housing scheme as a means of producing houses for the people, so if you approach this question of agriculture with preconceived notions of land ownership or land nationalisation, you are not tackling agricultural problems, but the question of nationalization of the land, and the two things are not the same, and cannot be brought together in one policy.

After all, the problem before us to-day, as has been so eloquently shown in quotations by my hon. Friend who moved this Motion, is a solution of our agricultural problem. That will only be adequately solved if we approach it from the point of view of wishing to restore prosperity to the agricultural industry. If we are wishing to carry out some pet scheme or hobby of our own other than that, we are doomed to failure before we begin. The holding of land is not the only difficulty in this agricultural problem. The Prime Minister, in the last speech which he addressed to this House when he was in Opposition, stated that this matter would never be adequately solved if it was only to be regarded as a rural problem. That was repeated on more than one occasion after he became Prime Minister, and he emphasised the fact that the solution must be one from a combined rural and urban point of view. That may be perfectly true. To state the difficulty, however, is not to help in the solution, any more than to state that one is anxious to have an agricultural policy is going to give us that policy, unless you are trying to think it out on common-sense lines. I think in no case is it more true than in this case of the rural and urban mind, that one-half of the world does not know how the other half lives. It is a matter of sincere regret to everyone interested in agriculture that such a small proportion of Members above the Gangway opposite are definitely and closely connected with rural constituencies, and have a first-hand knowledge of these problems, because that prevents them as a party considering this thing in the way it ought to be considered, and that is with an untrammelled mind, free from prejudice on matters in themselves important, but immaterial to the problem which is under consideration.

5.0 P.M.

It is impossible for the man who has lived all his life in an atmosphere of crowds, in an atmosphere of street lamps and paved roads, to appreciate the mental attitude and the conditions of daily life of the rural dweller. His pleasures, his problems, his difficulties, his conditions of life are absolutely as different as chalk from cheese. It is useless to say that the one can really understand the other unless someone else takes up the attitude of an arbitrator who has been in a position to see both sides of the question. A man whose conception of meat is something frozen that comes from abroad, whose conception of fish is something that comes out of a tin can, and whose conception of milk is something that comes out of a tap, cannot possibly appreciate the rural point of view of the man to whom these things, meat, corn and milk, are matters of every-day occurrence. There are further difficulties in the way of this idea of mine to combine the rural and the urban point of view. Here is one thing. Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that hon. Members opposite are interested in a manufacturing industry, let us say the making of lawn rollers and mowing machines. Your interest in the industry is largely from the point of view of the workmen engaged in it. Suppose your raw material goes up in price, your wages go up, owing to organisation, that your hours of work are reduced, and the result is that your manufactured article is increased in price. The manufacturer passes the increase on to the consumer.

When you are thinking of the welfare of your garden roller and mowing machine industry, you are thinking of it from the point of view of the workmen. But when you consider agriculture, you are not interested in it in the same way. The farmer has to pay more for his raw material, and land is one of these. He has to pay higher wages, and to pay more for his fertilisers and seed. Can he pass the increase on to the consumer? No. Because when you are considering the agricultural industry you are thinking in terms of cheap food for the people.

It is the fundamental difficulty of approaching the agricultural question that those who are to solve it are not interested in it, except indirectly. What they are interested in is a cheap supply of food for what is sometimes called the proletariat. I am using that word only to illustrate what I mean. The poor farmer, and I use the word "poor" advisedly, when he has those additional costs thrown upon his shoulders, is unable to pass them on to the consumer. The middleman, as a rule, takes pretty good care they are not passed on to him, and so, in the case of agriculture, when you get increased costs they come back on to the producer, who is the farmer, and that is obviously at the bottom of the reason why the agricultural labourer is so poorly paid, not only actually but for his relative skill. He is worse paid than any class of worker in the country to-day. When the farmer has those costs thrown back upon him, he has to see how he can cut down his expenses. One way is to throw out of cultivation his arable fields. The second is to cut down his wages, and the third is to discharge some of his hands and have fewer people on his farms to work them properly. He has no other alternative before him.

There is a third difficulty, which is a serious one, which one has to face in this matter. Take the case of the man who, to use an example, goes into an ironmongery business and sets up a little shop and sells saucepans and so forth. He may happen to be a particularly bad business man, and he goes into the bankruptcy court and his business disappears. People are sorry for him. But if you have a bad farmer, there is not the same criticism. The country goes to him and says, "You are a man who is, or who should be, producing cheap food for the country, and you are not running your business properly, and you do not know how to run it." Therefore, you are not concerned in the prosperity of agriculture, but, as we want cheap food for the people, you begin to think whether there should not be some bureaucratic interference with the farmer, or something of that kind which the farmer will resent. That makes it very difficult to try to get a national agricultural policy. What I am trying to do is to outline this consideration which has to be borne in mind. If we are to have what all sides of the House want, you must give to the farmer the security of tenure which he desires before he is to risk his capital and his labour and his energies in agriculture.

There is another difficulty and prejudice which handicaps the agricultural industry. I touched on it a short time ago when I spoke of the difficulty of organising the agricultural labourers. Those who have attempted to deal with labour thought in the teeming streets of our large cities have found it simple, because they have only to step outside their doors to have a crowd, and that leads to organisation. Therefore we have seen the trade unions organised to look after the interests of their members, and quite rightly so. But you cannot do that under rural and agricultural conditions. When the whistle blows at five, you down tools and stop work, and the man who does not stop work, unless for a very special reason, is regarded as a blackleg. It is quite possible to arrange for the agricultural labourer to stop work at a certain hour, but your cow goes on producing milk, and she is such a blackleg that she has calves out of hours, and the sum will not be regulated by trade union regulations, nor will the frosts nor the weather conditions, therefore you are up against that fundamentally different state of affairs. You cannot apply the same mental attitude in trying to solve the agricultural problem that you can in trying to solve the industrial and agricultural problem.

Another difficulty which sometimes raises prejudice, and that is the question of the holding of cottages. Everyone will admit that an Englishman's home should be his castle and that it is for the best welfare of the independent citizens of our country that a man should hold his cottage independently of his job or the occupation he has got, so that if he is fired from his job it does not mean that he is put out of his hearth and home. We all admit that. But there are certain conditions which are peculiar to agricultural and rural life which are entirely different from those I have just indicated. Anyone who knows the first thing about it realises that, in the country districts, cottages and farms steadings are few and far between, and a man must live near his work, not only because it saves travelling a distance, but because there is live stock to look after, and he has to be near at hand in case of sickness, and so forth. It is absolutely essential in the interests not only of the farmer, but of the labourer himself, that he should have accommodation given him near where the work is to be done. The only satisfactory way to do that is to have a tied cottage which is the property of the farmer. It is not desirable from the point of view of the best interests of the people in one sense. But at a time like this, when the difficulty of housing is so great, it is not likely that anyone is going to put up alternative housing for farm labourers all over the countryside to house them when they lose a particular job. If a dairy farmer has a man whom he wants to get rid of, he must put him out of the cottage that he is in, because the cottage is in proximity to the sheds where his live stock are, and he must have a vacant place for the sake of the other man who is to come in and take up the job. Therefore the question of the tied cottage is not so easy as it seems. It is a system that has grown up in the interests of the labourers themselves and not in the interests of the grasping landlord. It seems to me that I have detained the House over long—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."]—but each one of those lines of thought are lines that can be profitably followed by anyone who wants to solve a problem which for years past has proved insoluble.

In approaching this question, the main consideration is not housing, it is not the holding of land, and it should not be primarily a question of cheap food for the people, although that, of course, no one more than I would say was the ultimate aim to be kept in view. What we want at present is to restore a measure of prosperity to our agricultural interest, not only because it is one of the industries of the country and we want to see all our industries profitable, but because there is something better than that in it. If our agricultural industry is to go down, and if we throw up our hands and say, "Let it go," we will have to face the fact that we are not going to be a country partly rural and partly industrial; we are to be the paved streets of the world, and we are to have nothing but industrialists in our country and no rural population whatever. That would be an absolutely disastrous thing from the point of view of the welfare of the State. For that reason and no other, agriculture demands and deserves treatment by the Government that differs from the treatment to be given to any other industry. There are not only those immediate and intrinsic questions of importance, but there are those secondary questions which everyone must take into consideration. The Government, so far as they have dared or consented to indi- cate to us their proposals, have touched on three methods. One is an improvement in wages to better the conditions of the workers. The second is scientific development and co-operation.

We all know how miserably underpaid the agricultural labourer is. People think who do not know about it that it is an easy job, but the agricultural worker is more of a skilled labourer than the man you get in to rectify your electric light. A man cannot pick up agriculture any odd time and drop it any odd time. He must be in it from boyhood; he must absorb knowledge of it through the pores of his skin, until he knows it inside out, until he is a man who can look after livestock, who can plough, who knows weather conditions, who can do hedging and ditching, and so forth. These are the skilled labourers of our country, and we are paying them a miserable pittance which is hardly capable of keeping body and soul together. Why? Because of the economic condition of the industry in which they are engaged. Any Measure that would improve the position of the agricultural labourer is one I should welcome, first and foremost, before considering anybody else, although that sentiment may lose votes for me among some of the farmers of my constituency. I feel strongly that the agricultural labourers, who are the least able to help themselves, should have the first claim on our consideration. It is not the slightest good, however, starting at that end of the business and saying, "Therefore we are going to have a minimum wage; therefore we are going to have wage boards; therefore we are going to make the farmers pay so much." As was indicated by the Mover of this Amendment, you cannot pay more out of the industry than the industry can bear. If you are going to put it on an economic basis, it is not fair to place the uneconomic burden on the shoulders of the farmers. That should be borne by the State, if it is in the interest of the State that uneconomic wage conditions should be supplemented.

With regard to the question of scientific development and co-operation, I am a very great believer in both of those things, because I have had great experience of scientific co-operation on a very large scale. I have spent half of my life in the Hawaiian Islands in the Pacific, where the sugar-cane industry is now being developed scientifically to a higher degree than anywhere else in the world. That is being done by methods of scientific cooperation, but those methods have nothing whatever to do with the co-operation which we hear talked of so much in this country. There the solution of the problem has been found by the elimination of the small peasant proprietor and the establishment of great big estates, with reduced overhead costs, often producing a crop of 50,000 tons of sugar a year under one manager. There the problem has been dealt with upon a wholly different plane, and on such a scale it is possible to have what is perhaps the most up-to-date scientific experimenting station, in its own particular line, anywhere in the world, not excepting Kelham. But this method of co-operation is not the co-operation of which we hear so much to-day, the idea with regard to which seems to be that it is going to put the middleman out of business. In my opinion the middleman has been unfairly dealt with in many of these discussions. He is absolutely essential to our industries to-day. He is the distributing medium, and while he may have had more than his share, his function is one which must be carried out by somebody, and if you are to have some kind of co-operative institution, you are only substituting one form of middleman for another. As the Linlithgow Committee has pointed out, you will not come to salvation as regards the prosperity of the agricultural industry by means of any methods of co-operation in our lifetime.

The same remark applies to the question of scientific development. Both these ideas are going to take a long time to work out for many obvious reasons. There is no more suspicious, no more difficult man to deal with than the independent farmer, and in saying that, I refer to the good farmer and not to the poor farmer. He is not an easy man with whom to co-operate. He is not an easy man to get to take up new scientific experiments, and I do not blame him, because one's experience of scientific experiments with regard to agriculture, shows that you can carry out experiments at a station and secure absolutely incontrovertible results, and yet that experiment is not worth anything when applied to an actual farm. The farmer has to take that experiment and work it out under the conditions which apply to his own farm, and that is one of the reasons why the farmers are suspicious of the scientists who come to tell them how they should farm. The farmer says, "You may have done all that down at the station, but I know something different because I have been farming here for 20 or 30 years." Yet you must have their co-operation in this matter. You must have the practical as well as the theoretical, and if you attempt to divorce the two you are doomed to disaster. If a farmer takes up scientific methods, if they do not apply to the conditions of his particular farm, and if they prove a failure, then all that scientific experiment has been wasted and the prejudice of the farmer has been aroused. Even at the best, anything in the nature of scientific development or co-operation is going to take a period of years, if any real, definite results are to be obtained from the man who ought to help, and that is the farmer.

Meanwhile, if you are going to set up a minimum wage or agricultural wage boards or anything calculated to benefit the agricultural labourer, you are beginning at the wrong end. You are going to make the farmer suddenly pay an uneconomic wage for benefits he may receive from scientific development and co-operation years hence, although the optimists may say it will be only months hence. You must put the farmer in the position of paying that wage before you ask him to pay it. That is not to say that the Government, if they have a policy which is going to improve the condition of the farmers, should not carry out their responsibility of seeing also that part of that benefit is handed on to the agricultural labourers. I do not wish to say a word about the policy of the late Government except this. Apart from any motives that might be open to criticism in various quarters of the House, they had this in view, that he who pays the piper calls the tune, and that if the Government are going to assist agriculture and the farmer it must ensure that some of that increase in prosperity is handed over to the agricultural labourer. That, of course, is only common sense, and is only fair, and it is only what we all want to see. It is the policy of helping first and foremost the person who is least able to help himself.

Bringing these somewhat rambling remarks to a close I wish to emphasise one point to the Minister of Agriculture, and it is that in spite of any possible pressure that may be brought to bear upon him by doctrinaires sitting behind him or anywhere else, let him clear his mind of all such things, and if he wants to make the reputation which we heard of this evening as the Minister who has really done something, let him aim at solving the agricultural problem—not the housing problem or the landowning problem. Let him deal with the agricultural problem, bearing in mind that the prosperity of the labourer cannot be achieved if, without it, there does not come prosperity for the farmer, and also with it a better condition of affairs for the one who gets very scant consideration from hon. Gentlemen on the Benches opposite and that is the landowner. You cannot divorce the interests of these three. If you wish to have a prosperous agricultural industry you must be fair to all. It is not a question of handing over an unfair proportion to anybody. If you are going to say, "Oh, we can solve the agricultural problem but we must see that the landowner or the tenant-occupier, as the case may be, does not share in the advantages"—then you are riding for a fall. If you avoid these prejudices and these preconceived doctrinaire views and deal with this problem in a singleminded effort to discover a solution and restore to the agricultural industry once more, a reasonable measure of prosperity, then I say this Government will have done one of the greatest things that has been done by any Government in this country during the last two generations.

I should like to congratulate the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment upon their speeches. I thought the speech of the Mover was logical, well arranged and practical, and if he became at all provocative, it was not until he was provoked. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down delivered an admirably-phrased essay on agriculture in general, which, I thought, was one of wisdom and good sense, even though it did not lead to anything in particular of a very practical character. While I was listening to him it seemed to me that my right hon. Friend the Minister must have been saying to himself, "How difficult it is being made for me, if I have to bear in mind all these matters of such great importance and do what the Amendment calls upon me to do, and that is to declare a definite policy straight away." The only thing I regretted in the speeches of the Mover and Seconder is that they did not stick a little more closely to the definite Amendment on the Paper. I think they have been wise in calling definite attention to certain particular points and not treating agriculture as all of us are rather inclined to do sometimes, as if it were one similar industry all over the country. The Amendment is on right lines in calling attention to the difficulties which are going to arise and have already arisen with regard to unemployment and wages in the arable districts of the country, and I think it is a good thing that the two hon. Members in the Amendment have concentrated on what is an extraordinarily difficult problem as I see it.

I think there will be very little disagreement about this—that the purely arable farmer has been having, and is still having, a very difficult time. He has been hanging on and decreasing the arable area only as slowly as he could. He has been, in the main, trying to keep up wages as high as he could, but in that process he has been rapidly using up the capital which he accumulated during the War, and as the months go by it is becoming more and more difficult for him to carry on. The industry is, to some extent, on the up-grade. Things are a little better than they were two months ago. That does not alter the fact that week after week and month after month capital is being used up, and therefore it is more difficult for a considerable class of farmers to carry on as they would like to do. The same is true, to a large extent, with regard to a great many mixed farmers. They are having to modify their industry in ways which make it very difficult to manage, with capital being used up, and I think we should pay a tribute to the way in which the farmers as a whole have tried to resist the inevitable temptation to make things better for themselves by discharging their men. They have on the whole tried to keep the men steadily in employment. A tendency which is likely to operate is, that in the purely arable districts, where employment hitherto in normal times has been greatest, we are faced with the possibility of a state of affairs in which employment there will be less than in any part of our countryside.

With regard to the light arable lands at any rate, what we are faced with is not simply a modification of farming or an adjustment or a discovery of new methods, but what I fear may happen is an entire abandonment of farming as we know it. I fear we shall see the throwing together of farms each of which formerly employed four or five men per hundred acres. You will get four or five of these old farms turned into one sheep ranch with probably one shepherd doing almost the whole of the work. You will get in some districts almost the devastation, or it would not be too much to say the abandonment, of agriculture as it has been known to us and generally practised in the past. If that be at all true in regard to some parts of the country, can we perhaps get certain things generally recognised—and I shall try to be as little political as I can—out of which possible suggestions may spring as to productive and fertile lines for examination and consideration by the Government, lines, I will admit, so difficult that I do not join in any demand that the Minister of Agriculture should straight away in this Debate express a considered view upon them?

I want to clear away, if I can, some of the difficulties in order that certain suggestions that I may venture to make will emerge. The first thing that I would like to say for myself and those who sit on these benches, is that, in spite of all the difficulties, we feel bound to take up this position, that the first charge on any industry must be a fair living wage for the people who are engaged in it. You cannot get beyond that. If one could do it in any other way than by a great deal of regulation and compulsion, well and good. I will not go into that matter to-day, because we shall get on to it soon enough when we have the Wages Board Bill before us, but I want to make it clear that, whatever the results may be in some districts in the way of unemployment, you cannot permanently go on with men and women and their children receiving, week in and week out, far less than they can manage to maintain those children on, let alone themselves. The way in which they sacrifice themselves for their children is perfectly marvellous, and the struggle that must be going on now all over the country in these districts, where wages such as 22s., 23s., 24s., and 25s., and so on, are being paid, makes one almost cry to think of the terrible difficulties that must be faced. Whatever happens, that has to be tackled.

Then I come to another point. Quite apart from Protection, or Free Trade, or anything of that kind, I do not believe that any Government that we will ever have in this country is going to accept the position that the taxpayer is to be be called upon to make good permanently the loss on the industry out of his pocket, or to make any considerable grant towards making good the loss on the industry. I think that is true for agriculture, but it is rather interesting to realise that it is not true with regard to another industry, and that is house-building. We do accept the position that, with regard to house building, quite definitely, apparently, and quite permanently, so far as we can see at present, the taxpayer is to be called upon to put his hand in his pocket in order to subsidise that industry, but, with regard to agriculture, we say "No," and I think the reason is that the majority of the members of all political parties are determined that, somehow or other, they will have houses, but that there is not a majority in any political party which is similarly determined that they will have farming managed artificially and, by means of subsidies, kept in a prosperous condition. Agriculture, unfortunately, has to put that position in its pipe and smoke it, so to speak. The majority in all our political parties come from the towns and not from the country, and they look upon the matter, not as one affecting themselves, as they do housing, but in general, and, looking at it as a general question, they say: "We will not allow this industry, as we do allow house Building, to be"—if I may put it bluntly—"a parasite industry, having annual subventions out of our funds; it must manage to do without that somehow or other."

If I may explore that position a little bit further, I believe it was the universality of the proposal of the bounty which was the first and main matter which condemned it in the eyes of the majority of the people. It would not do, in the mind of the ordinary voter, that a proposal should be indicated that everyone who happened to have an acre of arable land should be invited, year after year, to dip into the taxpayer's pocket for assistance. People had in mind cases where that sort of assistance was altogether unnecessary and uncalled for, and, therefore, impossible. We all know of such cases. There is the home farm, which is maintained more as a pleasant annexe to a country house than in any other way; there are farmers in parts of Scotland, and in England, too, for all I know, still quite contentedly paying £2 or £3 an acre as rent for land, which presumably indicates that they do not need an annual subvention out of the taxpayer's pocket; there are many men who buy farms rather to retire to and spend their last years upon, in a more or less pleasant occupation in which it is certain that, if you do it well, although you will lose money for certain, you will lose it very slowly, if you are careful. Why should men of that kind, people ask, be given a dole or a grant out of the taxpayer's pocket?

Yes. If any party had a majority of people who wished to help themselves out of the taxpayer's pocket, and they got into power, they would do it for the time being, although there is always the liability that, when the other fellows get in, they will undo it, and that position of uncertainty is one of the worst things for the agricultural industry. Even if one party accepted the universal bounty idea, I would be against it, because of the certainty that, when the other party came in, they would undo it. The idea that emerges from what I am pleased to call my mind, after considering these points, is this, that the industry as a whole ought to do, what I believe it is doing to a very considerable extent, and that is to realise that there is more to be done by general organisation and effort by themselves than by political action and leaning on this House for assistance. But I do not want to accept the position that, because the State—either under the present Government or, as I suggest, permanently, as long as our majorities are mainly urban and not rural—cannot give bounties to maintain the industry from year to year and make good the annual difference between profit and loss, it therefore cannot do anything at all.

I believe that there is a very great field of things that the State could do, and should do, in this way, by using State credit in ways that have yet been hardly thought of, but which, I think, are very well worthy of very careful, and detailed, and, it may be, long consideration. I believe that if we, as a nation, have money to put into development, it is the home country, the country here at home, which ought to have the first call on that money, however much one may be glad that it should go to Indian railways or Australian bridges or something of that kind, and I believe that there is justification for using State credit and the national money in very big ways that we have hardly any of us yet begun to think about at all clearly, for this reason, that as a nation we are Industrially top-heavy, and we do not rest on the broad basis of having men settled in a decent and reasonable and independent life on the land, which is the very best basis for a really prosperous and contented national life. We have seen in recent weeks how our national life can almost be brought to a standstill by an industrial dispute—call it a strike or whatever you like; I do not want to impute any motives—but it is surely all wrong that you should get so many places like this great centre of London, where, as I say, the national life can be extraordinarily inconvenienced and almost brought to a standstill because of some industrial difficulty, and where, because of the international position and the decline in the general trade of the world, you can have such a terrible access of distress and unemployment as we have seen covering the country in the last few years.

I believe that, if we are to be healthy, we want more men and more women and children settled on the land, and I believe it is justifiable for the State to take very long views and to spend quite a lot of money in bringing that state of things about. In what direction? It seems to me that, where you find things that can be done, but which an individual by himself cannot afford to do, even if he has absolute security that he himself will enjoy the fruits of what is done, but which quite clearly will add to the national wealth and permanently settle men on the land, it is justifiable for the State, not to continually finance the whole thing and to keep the man by annual grants from going under, but to give the start, to provide the incentive, as it were to "get the move on," so that thereafter there shall be the certainty of more life on the land and more production from the land.

If the House will forgive me for a personal reminiscence, what could be done was brought to my mind extraordinarily vividly once when, in my capacity as a Forestry Commissioner, I was travelling in a part of the South of Ireland, which is a country of great spaces and great views, where one can look across to a great range of hills, perhaps 30 miles away, consisting entirely of bog and rock, with hardly a sign of habitation anywhere, and then suddenly one is aware of a patch of green and fertile and cultivated land, right in the middle of those miles of hillside, and it is the settlement at a place called Mount Melleray, which has been made by the Trappist monastery, which has settled on an area of absolutely waste bog and rock, such as I have described, and has made a sort of paradise out of it. It was not economic, I suppose. The brothers who did the work worked, no doubt, in return for bare board and lodging, and the welfare of their souls, and the blessed gift of silence, which is imposed upon them by the rules of their Order. I sometimes think that some of us ought to end up our days, as a sort of penance, in a Trappist monastery like that. But they had permanently settled themselves, with a large dependent population, in this place, where previously there was not grazing for one goat to every hundred acres, and they were entertaining every year and providing hospitality for something like 100,000 people who visit the monastery on pilgrimage, and who are always fed on the produce of the monastery lands whenever they go there.

Here was a thing, it may be not economic, but it had made what it is urged that the present Government has promised, namely, the wilderness to blossom like the rose. Here was a certain amount of expenditure, originally uneconomic, which had established a community on the land in an extraordinarily productive way. I do not say that the State ought to compel men to go into monasteries, and work in that sort of way, but I do say that the power of a community to do a thing of that kind gives one a suggestion of the sort of thing that the State, which, after all, is the biggest community, might help us to do for ourselves. It is not a new idea that the State should take long views, and I am not putting anything very revolutionary to my right hon. Friend. The State has already tackled matters like forestry and the establishment of small holdings, and we all know that for very many years, at any rate, forestry costs more than it is likely to bring in, though I believe that in the long run it will bring in a great deal more than it has originally cost. Both in regard to national safety and the settling of people on the land it was considered justifiable to go in for a certain expenditure. In regard to small holdings similarly; as we all know we thought it right during the War to establish men in small holdings, and we took very little regard, if any, whether or not it was an economic proposition. If these men, it was considered, can reach anything like equilibrium it is a gain for the small man to be settled on the land. For years we have been willing to do it, although there was the risk of the necessary expense in so doing might be a loss, because of the gain to the State in general in getting further settlers.

How far have we got under this Government towards things of the kind, and what further things are there that might be considered? I have said that I am looking to British State credit on a far larger scale than has ever been done before. My right hon. Friend has made a little bit of a start. I am afraid it comes to very little. He has been in office a very short time, however, and one does not expect it. But perhaps the House might wish to be reminded exactly as to what has been done and what improvements—I acknowledge them fully—have been made by my right hon. Friend on the intentions of the preceding Government. There have been two definite advances, one in the direction of extending credit under certain circumstances to co-operative societies, and the other in regard to short-term credits. The first thing—as to the credit for co-operative societies. The scheme which my right hon. Friend has brought out was under consideration, and in an advanced stage of preparation, under the preceding Government, and the only modification that he has made in it, so far as I am aware, is to' increase the maximum that might be granted to any one society from a figure of £5,000 proposed last November to a figure of £10,000 which is the maximum now. In other ways the scheme is the same, as the money is to be advanced on certain conditions. It is to be free of interest for the first two and a half years, and after that the interest which has been let off has got to be paid, so that it comes the heavier for the further 17½ years in the way of repayment. The terms, when you look at them, are not very much better, unless the society attaches a great deal of importance to being free from interest for two and a half years than any decent society can obtain on a mortgage or something of the kind. However, it is something, if it does not come to much.

In regard to the short-term credits, again I would say the scheme does not come to much. My right hon. Friend has seen that the scheme of the previous Government was really an addled egg from the date of laying, so to speak, and would not go on in any case. The rate of interest to the borrower of the credit societies was too high. He has, I think, made a definite move forward in reducing the rate of interest charged by the Government to the societies to 4 per cent. and, therefore, by the societies to the borrower to 5 per cent. I hope that with the 4 per cent. or 5 per cent., as it may be, decent societies may get started trading next year on those loans, but that does not come to very much, because there are still in that scheme pretty obvious defects. First, the financial arrangements make no possible provision for sinking and reserve funds, and, secondly, a member of society may feel that it is rather unfair, if the State really means to help, that he should be called upon to lose all his money before the State risks losing one single farthing of its money. That is the position in regard to these co-operative societies. I welcomed the scheme when it came out, but it is only nibbling at the needs, so far as I see it. Of course, I seem to look at it so, but I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will see it is very much bigger than that altogether.

Let me touch on three things, and three only, on which I think the State should take a much bigger view than indicated by these matters in regard to the short-term loans, or the credit for the co-operative societies. The first of these three matters is sugar beet. The second is limeing the land. The third is drainage. I have to make a recantation in regard to sugar beet. I believed it was utterly unsound to help the industry at all. Having tried to work it out, and tried to inquire, I have come to the conclusion that the establishment of the sugar-beet industry may make—indeed, will make—such a difference to the whole method by which the agriculture of some parts of our country is carried on, that it is really justifiable as a workable proposition. Let me say this, however, it is absolutely impossible to look at the sugar-beet industry as if the maintenance of that industry entailed the maintenance of dear sugar. The people who are keenest on the industry will make a very, very great mistake if they say, "In order that I must prosper you must make sugar dearer than it otherwise need be." You cannot justify it on those lines, and I hope that nobody connected with the industry will try to justify it on those lines. Also you must get the industry to show you that in the long run—I would not give them a farthing's help otherwise—they should show examples or be in a position to show—that in the long run they will be able to do without Government aid from year to year. It must be capable of paying in this country as in Holland, and in a position in which it does wholly without Government assistance. Unless the industry can show that it can get itself into that position I do not think it is justifiable for the Government to go to its help. The reason, of course, that it keeps on running in other countries without Government assistance is that it has been established a long time, and that it has been built up slowly, and that they have not the original cost of erecting the factories. I think it is perfectly justifiable, in view of the importance of the industry, to ask the Government to give the initial impetus, and thus to pay, I do not say all, but a very considerable proportion of the initial cost of setting up the factories and then leaving the industry on its own basis, without the assurance of exemption from duties or anything of that kind.

From the point of view of employment this is what I believe is true: There is in the eastern counties, and elsewhere, a very great deal of fair to heavy land which it is extraordinarily difficult to keep in arable cultivation, unless you allow it to go fallow once in four years. The cost of not getting a crop at all practically kills the profits, whereas if you can put in a sugar-beet crop, instead of a year's fallow time, it will make from 2 per cent. to 5 per cent. difference on what would be a dead loss, and you can keep the whole thing going on an arable foundation, whereas otherwise the land would go out of cultivation and thousands of men would be discharged. The best calculation I can get from people actually engaged in the industry is that they are able to keep two men in steady employment to every 15 acres of sugar-beet, that they get this very high proportion which is not possible otherwise; also that the work with regard to sugar-beet fits in perfectly well with other work during the farming year, and comes at a time when the farm is apt to be slack in regard to other things. Surely, if you can help the industry to arrive at a state like that with this, perhaps, heavy initial expense of the factories, which may cost half a million—if you can keep arable land from going out of cultivation altogether, I believe it is justifiable for the State to help.

Is there any fundamental reason why the sugar-beet industry in this country should not be on the same scale as in Germany? Is there any fundamental difference in climate?

I do not want to deliver a lecture on sugar-beet, because, as I say, I have been only instructed myself on the matter fairly recently, but I do think there is this element in it: that in most places on the Continent where sugar-beet is a success they have the excuse for a winter season of factory work in a special supply of cheap labour. The figures I have seen in regard to the industry lead me to think that if they can overtake in some way the heavy initial charges of erecting the factory it can be run in this country with the ordinary labour paying the ordinary rates of wages, and without any call upon the Government for State assistance.

The next thing I want to say a word about is lime. In spite of all the appli- cations of new fertilisers, the desirability of liming land remains practically what it was 20, 40, 60, 100, 200 years ago! There is nothing which fully and adequately takes the place of lime. The desrability is obvious of getting the lime up to the land cheaply, and particularly in districts where you have not got the lime—for it is there where you most need it—and large dressings of lime, for instance, are almost a necessity of a sugar-beet crop. I believe it would be perfectly justifiable considering over what a long series of years lime will have a beneficial effect on the land for the Government to work out, with the railway companies and with the owners of lime kilns, schemes under which the farmers shall be enabled to get supplies of lime at something like a flat rate, so that the man who wants the most shall find it very easy to get it, instead of finding it more difficult than other people, as is too often the case at the present time. I do not think you can do much in reviving large lime kilns, but I believe you can do a very great deal in applying in places where there are the greatest supplies of limestone the very best modern machinery for converting the limestone into lime in a condition in which the farmer needs it. That needs special arrangements with the railway companies for transportation of fuel to convert the limestone into lime. It needs a big scheme, and it needs to be done especially by the co-operative societies, and it needs as an impetus that some of the first expense should be met by the State. I believe we should be able permanently to get a great deal more to put on our land if a scheme were worked out on something like those lines.

6.0 P.M.

The other matter is that of drainage. The Government in one way has been of recent years extraordinarily generous in this matter of drainage. They have, through the Unemployment Fund, as the House knows quite well, and through the Ministry of Agriculture, encouraged schemes of arterial drainage, and the nation has provided up to 65 per cent. of the expense of these schemes. They have been large, no doubt, because they wished to make special provision for the unemployed. In order to help the unemployed the work has to be done in the winter, when it is most difficult to do drainage work economically, and when most time is lost through men standing idle because the schemes are flooded, and they can do no work. At any rate it was thought justifiable under certain conditions that no lees than 65 per cent. of the cost of drainage schemes should be provided from the public purse. I do not ask for anything as large as that, but I do say if that was justifiable that the following up of these special schemes which we undertook during special periods of unemployment on a larger scale is a perfectly justifiable thing for the Government to contemplate. The drainage that was done was arterial drainage, whereas the drainage which is so much wanted is very largely field drainage. Those who know definite pieces of countryside will bear me out when I say that in many districts which I have watched for a long time I find the rushes are creeping up, and you can see them getting higher, and if you mark their progress with a stone you will soon see that the rushes are creeping up to that stone. The reason of that is because the old field drains have fallen into uselessness, and with the present cost of labour and material it is not worth the while of anyone to get those old drains going again.

If the thing were given a start, then I am sure you would get more productivity out of the land. You want to get these schemes into operation, employing the best machinery to redrain the land. In my view it is quite justifiable for the State to help in this way, and drainage schemes in particular require some element of compulsion, because it is no use one man draining his land if his neighbour does not do the same. A good deal more could be done if the State would only give these schemes a start. The same applies to sugar beet and liming, and those are things we ought to look at and do them on a larger scale. I do not believe in subsidies, which encourage the farmer to lean on the State from year to year to make up the difference between his profit and loss, but it would be perfectly justifiable for the Government to set aside a sum of £5,000,000 or £10,000,000, spread over a period of 20 or 30 years on a long-dated scheme, in order to settle men securely on the land in those parts of the country where now an insufficient number of men are maintained on the land.

I feel sure hon. Members will agree with me when I say that we have all listened with great attention to the last speaker, who has shown a very good grasp of this subject, and he has given us a good deal of enlightenment on what might be done by collective Socialism for the benefit of agriculture by a process of introducing Socialistic ideals into private enterprise. The Seconder of this Motion said that we require to take a broad view, and then he proceeded to narrow himself down to the purely agricultural view. It is not good enough to take agriculture as an industry in this country on its own, and we have to view it in connection with many other industries running concurrently and at the same time. What in fact we are now discussing, and what arises out of the discussion, is, that wherever the country has been blessed or cursed with coal or iron, there you have had an industrialisation which ultimately has come into competition with agriculture, and there you have, had the decay of agriculture. It is not good enough to say that when these things have happened the State should come in, because, if it does, in my opinion, it will have to continue to maintain agriculture.

We have to take the thing upon a broader basis than that. One of the fruits of Empire naturally is the decay of agriculture in this country, because our Imperial development has been complementary to our industries and not supplementary to them. We have encouraged agriculture in our colonies complementary to our industrial system here causing the natural decay of agriculture in this country. If we insist upon a large export trade and insist that that is the real line of development of an industrial country—and it seems to be so because every country that has followed the line of industrialisation has ultimately taken to a large export trade—if we do that, naturally we require food for our population, and the more we increase our export trade which causes a larger inflow of food products into this country. That is quite natural in the exchange of world trade. It means a cheapening of the food of the country and taking away from agriculture the capital which is necessary to increase other industries.

I should like to mention that during the War we were told that there was a revival of agriculture in this country. For what reason? Because there was a reduction in the imports due to two causes. Firstly that there was a difficulty in transport, and secondly that there was a greater home demand in most of the belligerent countries. There was a reduction in exports which also goes to show a corresponding reduction in the import of foodstuffs, throwing us back upon our own productive capacity in this country, thus making under our capitalistic system agriculture a profitable industry for the time being. During the War years more land went into cultivation and provided more foodstuffs, but when we get back from that sheltered position of war into the open economic market of the world, then we get the natural decay of agriculture in this country.

Are we going to face this problem and take one broad view of the industrial activities of this country and consider agriculture in its relation to all other industries? Having done that, are we going to say that we are prepared, because of the value of the agriculture industry, not only as a food-producing industry, but as a vitally essential part of the life of the people in maintaining a healthy and cultured race, to take that view of agriculture and use all the other industries of the country to maintain and extend agriculture? That seems to me to be the position we have got to face. We have to make up our minds whether agriculture shall die a natural death in so far as it is used for producing marketable products near urban districts owing to the competition with the huge areas of the world which are not yet industrialised, but which are using our industrial producing machines on such a huge scale for the production of agricultural produce that they can compete successfully in our market with agriculture in this country.

Are we going to allow agriculture to decay with the natural consequence that our people will be taken away from the land and thrown into the slums of our industrial towns? Agriculture is essential and necessary for the maintenance of a healthy and virile people, and therefore let us do what we can, and recognise that when we have done that and come to that decision we have done something which is against private enterprise standing upon its own footing, and we have got down to collective socialism. In every particular case when industry is considered to be vital and is not profitable then the State can assist it whether it is profitable or not if it is essential that it should be kept going in the interests of the community and not for the benefit of private individuals. We have to recognise these things and understand that if we want to be Imperialists and Conservative Imperialists, and if we want to revive agriculture we shall have to change our minds with regard to Imperial Preference because we cannot have it both ways.

Unless you are going to say that you are prepared to subsidise and State-aid agriculture in order that agriculture in competition with the Colonies may continue, then we want to export to those Colonies our trained industrialists. I hope we shall proceed along the lines of recognising that agriculture has come to the position which it has to be considered as a national necessity, and if we are going to consider it in that light we must consider it also as a national possession and treat it as such, and take steps in view of that and develop it as a national asset, and see that we do not use the collective credit of the State to increase the private holdings and interests of particular people in the community at any time. That is our position. I believe that mining itself and other essential national interests are coming to the position in the State that they will have to be controlled by the State, but when it comes to camouflaging State-aid and calling it private enterprise let us drop the matter at once and make it a national industry and national property and use it for the benefit of the people.

I do not think that the hon. Member who has just sat down has, if I may be forgiven for saying so, really come to grips in the least degree with the problem which faces the House. As far as I followed him, after having to his own satisfaction—though I venture to think not quite completely—traced the causes of what he calls the decline of agriculture, he said that if you come to State help, you have to admit that it is the end of private enterprise, that you have to resort to Socialism, and that State help cannot be given to improve the wealth of the few in what is a national industry. With all deference to the hon. Member, if I may say so in passing, I am sure that every Member of this House who represents an agricul- tural constituency is grateful to hon. Members opposite, representing, as most of them do, industrual constituencies, who come to this House and take great trouble to make a contribution to our discussions on agricultural questions. I only wish there were more Members of the hon. Member's party who, like him, would give their minds really to this question which is facing the nation. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland) said, the root of the difficulty is that three-fourths of the nation are industrial, their Members of Parliament are industrial, and they do not think enough—or, I am afraid, do not care enough—about the fate of agriculture and the agricultural labourer.

I will venture to tell the hon. Member where I think he is wrong. In the first place, the question is not, as he put it, whether agriculture will die a natural death in this country; the question is whether arable farming will die a natural death in this country. That is a very different question. It is not the farmer who is going to suffer most if the present condition of affairs is allowed to develop in its natural course. The farmer can, and ultimately will, adapt his farming to the conditions of his day and time. It is the agricultural labourer who is going to suffer. If nothing is done for agriculture, during the next few years, you will have the process which commenced so strongly during the latter part of the nineteenth century, and which was arrested by the War—you will have that process going on at a very greatly increased pace. Thousands of acres of land in this country will be laid down to grass, we shall become more and more a ranching country, more and more a grazing country, and thousands, nay, hundreds of thousands, of agricultural labourers will be turned out of work.

May I point out, with all due deference, that the transport of chilled meat will produce the same position that obtains in arable farming?

I do not quite admit the validity of the hon. Member's rather elaborate argument, and I will tell him of a factor which I think he has left out of his calculations, namely, the factor of taxation. One of the main reasons why arable farming does not pay, and why agriculture in this country is so depressed, is that agriculture has to bear a far heavier burden of taxation than any other industry, or than agriculture has to bear in any other country. The hon. Member—who, I am sorry to see, is no longer in his place—never took any account of that at all in his speech, but every practical agriculturist knows it to be a fact. If you are farming a farm which you own, you have to pay Schedule A, and you have to pay rates; and very often the Government comes along and says you have made a profit when you have not, and charges you Schedule B or Schedule D. I know that from practical experience, because I have farmed for years, and have had to pay hundreds and thousands of pounds to the Government in taxation while I have not taken a single penny out of my farm; and that is the experience of thousands of other farmers in this country. It is all nonsense to say it is not a burden on agriculture. It is a burden on agriculture. It is a constant crippling of agriculture in every one of its branches.

The first thing I should like to say to the Minister is that, if the Government can help in no other way, they can help in lightening the burden of taxation on agriculture. I have put questions to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the last few weeks for the purpose of trying to get from them in figures the amount of money that was levied from agricultural land during the last few years, and they have replied that it is impossible, from the Government's position, for the Government to calculate the amount. I admit fully the difficulty of calculating it from Whitehall, but I should like to point out to the House that you cannot appreciate fully the difficulty with which agriculture has to contend unless you realise the amount that is taken from the agricultural industry and from agricultural land in taxes and paid into the coffers of the State. That is what I would say in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tiverton, and to the hon. Member who has just spoken.

It is not so much a question of the State subsidising agriculture as of the State ceasing to overtax agriculture. The whole of our system of land taxation dates from a time when agriculture was protected and prosperous. Now the life has been bled out of the industry by the heavy taxes that are put upon it in one form or another. The Liberal party would never lift a finger to lighten those taxes, because they were obsessed by economic theories, such as Ricardo's theory of rent, which convinced them that any mitigation of the burdens on the land went into the pocket of the wicked landlord. Now, for the most part, they have got rid of the wicked landlord, and the plight of agriculture is, as a result, very much worse than it was before. In the 19th century the farmer could go to his landlord and ask for a remission of rent. The landlord, to a large extent, has been driven off the field, and the farmer is his own landlord, so that he cannot go to anyone and ask him for assistance when he gets into arrears. I know perfectly well that, on my own small piece of land, I am never going to have another tenant. I have only a few left, and one of them, to whom I was talking the other day, owes me two years' rent. He is hopelessly involved. He has been on the farm for 40 years, and he knows perfectly well that I, who am a friend of his, am not going to turn him out, but am going to do my best to tide him through. But we cannot afford, in these days, at the present rate of taxation, to go on doing that, as we used to do as a matter of course in the past; and, when that tenant departs this life, his farm will be sold, or I shall farm it myself—unless the Socialist party has in the meanwhile confiscated it.

That is going on all over the country, and the result is that you are face to face with the facts of the situation, and the facts of the situation are that, as long as agriculture is taxed to the present extent, it is impossible for the farmer and the farm labourer to get a decent living out of the industry. Here I want to say a few words, if I may, with all deference and courtesy, to hon. Members sitting opposite. They have a very heavy responsibility in this matter. We sit here and listen to their eloquence day by day when they complain about the monstrous injustice of trade unionists being forced to accept wages of 50s. or 60s. a week, which they tell us are starvation wages. Every time they do that, I can tell them what passes through the minds of agricultural Members sitting on these benches, and that is that, if 50s. or 60s. a week is a starvation wage to a trade unionist, what is 25s., or in some cases 22s., to an agricultural labourer?

The hon. Member opposite says it is "hellish." I ask him, whose fault is it, and how may it be remedied? Is it the fault of the farmers and of such landlords as remain? I tell the hon. Member that I do not think it is the fault of the farmers, and I think I can give him a pretty good proof. I referred to the point when I spoke before on this subject. If the hon. Member will study the accounts of his own co-operative societies that go into farming, he will see that they are not able to make in any way a better business out of agriculture than are private individuals. The co-operative societies are, I believe, the biggest farmers in the whole country. They farm some 70,000 acres, of which they actually own 60,000 acres, and as far as I know—I can only speak, of course, from knowledge of their accounts and statements made by their leaders that I have read—as far as I know, they do not pay substantially a better agricultural wage than any of their neighbours, and they have not made agriculture any more profitable. As I told the House the other day—

I am talking about England at present. If we had the Danish agricultural problem before us, it might be easier. Agriculture is not taxed in Denmark as it is in England. I was talking about the co-operative societies, and saying that they are not able to make any greater success of farming than the private farmer, for the accounts for the last year which I have seen, namely, 1921, show a loss of over £350,000 in their farming, or over £5 an acre. I have not seen the accounts for 1922 or 1923, and I should be very grateful if any co-operative Members opposite would be kind enough to send them to me. They are not very easy to obtain, and, in fact, those that I have I obtained by the courtesy of a friend, who gave me permission to make public use of them, as there is nothing private about them at all. It seems to me that they form a very interesting contribution to the whole question.

I mentioned this in the House the other day, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who, as everyone knows, is a great co-operator, said that the only unfair thing in my argument was that in showing that loss the farming co-operative societies had to pay 5 per cent. interest on their capital which they got from the mother or father co-operative society to enable them to carry on their business. That, however, is a condition which every farmer has to face. If a farmer wants to borrow capital from his banker, or even from the Government, he has to pay 5 per cent. interest, and there is nothing peculiar in these co-operative accounts. Then what is the position to which we come? The position is the same in the case of co-operative societies, of private individuals as a whole—there are exceptions, though they are very few—and of the Government. The Government, when it has undertaken farming operations—and I am speaking in the presence of the Minister of Agriculture, who, I suppose, is the leading exponent of Socialism in agriculture—when the Government has taken a hand at agriculture it has made bigger losses than anyone else. It has made huge losses, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it. No one has been able to make arable farming pay at present except where you get a very few favoured districts, such as parts of Lincolnshire and Kent. That is the fundamental reason why the agricultural labourer's wage is being driven down to 25s. It is a wicked wage. It is not a wage on which a man can or ought to be expected to maintain a wife and family. But it is the only wage which can be got out of the industry, and if the trade unionists who are fighting for £3, £4 or £5 a week turn a deaf ear to the agricultural labourer, and will not consider his position, they are acting in a very selfish and unpatriotic manner. It is no good for them to say "We can secure for the agricultural labourer a better wage by giving him wages boards." If they examine the problem they must be convinced that the Wages Board will cease to be of the slightest us to the agricultural labourer the moment it imposes a higher economic wage than the industry can bear.

How can they pay double the wage in Scotland that you are paying in England?

I want to know what part of Scotland that is and what the nature of the farming is. Of course, when I say the wages in many parts of England are 25s. a week, that is the wage of the agricultural labourer. Shepherds and cowmen and carters are getting more, in some cases double, or perhaps more than double. If you have a few men on a big acreage you can afford to have one well-paid man instead of three or four badly-paid men, and therefore it is true that shepherds and cowmen, as a rule, get higher wages than an agricultural labourer. If the hon. Member looks out the individual farms I should be very glad to go into the matter with him at any time, and I think he will find that is the case. Anyhow, he cannot point out to me—and I think my example of the co-operatives is a pretty good proof, because they farm not in one part of the country but in all parts—any part of England where you have what may be called a trade unionist wage for agricultural labourers in arable farming, and you can show a farming profit. That is the problem this country is up against, and it is not so much a question of State assistance or subsidies, as of the State doing justice and fairness by agriculture. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland) says he is against subsidies. Then he says that instead of subsidies the State ought to supply us with free lime and free drainage and free sugar-beet factories. What are those but subsidies in kind? I am willing to compromise with the right hon. Gentleman on those terms. I think if we farmers had been able to get a subsidy in kind in 1920 the Government would not have been able to take it away quite so easily in the following year. There is a good deal to be said for subsidies in kind, because they cannot be so easily taken away. The lime cannot be scraped off the land so easily as a bonus, can be repealed. Therefore I am quite willing to co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman on those terms. But those are not subsidies really, because they would only be services rendered by the State to agriculture in return for the taxation which is exacted from agriculture by the State. At present agriculture has to pay for a great many services, such as education and roads, which are totally useless to the farmers.

Surely the Noble Lord does not suggest that education is entirely useless to farmers?

The type of education that is given in our public elementary schools is of no more use to the agricultural community than to any other section of the community. Yet the agricultural community is specially taxed in regard to the upkeep of these schools. That is unfair. Those are the facts that stare us in the face. Then we come to sugar beet. I do not think it would be in the least sufficient for the Government to build sugar beet factories and then leave the industry to fend for itself. There was one very important factor which the right hon. Gentleman entirely left out of account, and that was the acquisition of the necessary skill and knowledge by the farmers and the farm labourers who have to grow this new crop before it can be grown in the most profitable and economic manner. That is necessarily a very slow process, and it will probably take at least 20 years before enough skill is generated in different parts of the country for sugar beet to be able to compete on equal terms with countries where it has been established for many years.

We then come back to the question in the terms of this Motion. What is the Government going to do? We have all been waiting for the right hon. Gentleman to make a pronouncement. I do not think he can put us off again to-night, as we have been put off so many times before, by telling us that the Government has only recently come into office and has not been able to prepare its policy. As the weeks roll by and the days pass we hear repeated every day at Question Time from that bench that the Minister of the particular Department is unable to state what the Government policy is, and demands a little further time for consideration. I thought at the Election the Labour party had a remedy for all these things in its pocket, and, unfortunately, about 4,000,000 electors also thought that. Now, if we have a General Election, the 4,000,000 electors will know that the Labour party came into office without having a thought-out policy on practically any subject with which they had to deal. We have waited for two months, and it is time we had the Government policy on agriculture. No one pretends that co-operation is a solution of the agricultural problem. It will help a little, and in so far as it is helpful, the right hon. Gentleman will meet with no impediment, I believe, from any quarter of the House. But it is not going to solve the agricultural problem, and he knows perfectly well that it will not. Then we have wages boards, but unless you are going to make the agricultural industry itself profitable, wages boards will do nothing but aggravate the problem so far as the agricultural labourer is concerned.

So we come back to what the Government is going to do. My hon. Friend, who moved this Motion, suggested that the Government should control the imports of food so as to secure a market for the home farmer. If I understood the Minister correctly the other day when, I think, he said he was in favour of wheat control, that is a policy which would commend itself to the Socialist party and to this Government, but I hope very much that a solution will not be found on those lines. We have had enough of control during the War, and war-time control was got rid of with a sigh of relief, and did not prove a benefit or a blessing to the community. We have still got with us the hop control, which was designed especially for the purpose of regulating imports. On the first opportunity I get I am going to ask the right hon. Gentleman for an inquiry into the working of that control, and I think it is very important that an inquiry should be held, because it would show the extraordinary mess which has been made by that control during the last five years, and how it has resulted in a large hop acreage being grubbed last year in a totally unnecessary fashion. My hon. and learned Friend (Sir G. Hohler) hands me a telegram sent from Maidstone. When I gave notice to the right hon. Gentleman that I was going to raise this question on the Adjournment, the Hop Controller, apparently, got his friends at Maidstone to send telegrams to all the Kent Members that they disagreed with what I was going to say. I think if my hon. Friend studies the history of the control, he will find that is not a very hopeful subject. I do not believe you will find a remedy for this problem unless you do what every other country has had to do, and that is to take the burdens off agriculture altogether. Do not tax the farmer's raw material and insofar as you are obliged to tax agriculture, put a corresponding tax on the production of agriculture in other countries when it comes in. [ Interruption. ] Hon Members reject it. Then they have to do something to remedy the wages situation. The responsibility is on their shoulders. They control the majority in Parliament. They maintain the Government. The agricultural labourer is at present being driven off the land. He is being driven to the Colonies and to America. Farming you will not drive out. The land will always be here, but whether it is grazed by flocks or tilled by Englishmen depends on what measure of justice the Radical and Socialist parties, who come mainly from the towns, are willing to give to the English countryman.

In addressing this House for the first time I am very glad to take a part, even if it is only a small one, in this present debate on agriculture. Whatever one's political opinions may be, I think we must all agree on one point at any rate, that at present agriculture is the Cinderella of industry with one exception. No one seems to be unduly anxious to play the part of the fairy godmother to it. It languishes or it thrives according to the particular party that happens to be in power or according to the promises that are made or given by that particular party in power. Because it has been too much in the past the plaything of politicians, I should like to see a national policy outlined by the present Government and subscribed to by all parties, a policy that would be free from the instability and the uncertainty of the political pendulum.

There is another point in connection with this subject upon which I should like to concentrate, and that is the transportation factor in agriculture. Those of us who have tried to understand this question will agree that the transportation factor is always doing one of two things, it is either developing a weak link, thus restricting the activities and the operations of industry, or it is breaking down altogether and leaving the farmer with his produce miles away from any market, with no economic means of taking it to the consumer who desires to purchase it. It has always seemed to me that in an industry which can produce a commodity for which there is demand less than 100 miles away, it is an amazing thing that that commodity is allowed to rot in the fields, simply because there is no economic method of transport from the producer to the consumer.

Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to one or two crops of 1922. If we take the average price of wheat in 1922, we find that it was approximately 30 per cent. above the price that obtained in 1914, and yet the railway rates on that particular commodity ranged anything from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. above the rates in 1914. As regards the potato crop, the position was even worse, because we find that for the greater part of 1922 the prices that were realised in the wholesale markets were, on the average, below those that obtained in pre-War times, and yet the railway rates exceeded those payable in 1914 by 75 per cent. There is rather a curious anomaly which exists between the Minister of Agriculture and any question that relates to railway rates. One would have thought that if in connection with this subject it had been desirable to place a question before the Railway Rates Tribunal it would have been possible for this to have been done by the Minister or some of his officials. The Minister is head of a Department set up many years ago, and no one can speak, or should speak, with greater authority than himself in regard to this industry. He is in possession of statistics and data which, perhaps, is possessed by no one else, and yet we find that he has no right to appear, and that his officials have no right to appear, before the Railway Rates Tribunal. He has no status there, and if he went to urge his claim the possibilities are that he would not be heard. I hope that in any policy that the Government may outline, they will make some provision so that the Minister of Agriculture may be able to go to the Railway Rates Tribunal and urge there the claims of the agricultural industry.

In all the industries of this country there is none greater or more honourable than the industry of the fields, and amongst those who toil with their hands he who cultivates the soil and maketh the earth to increase is the greatest of them all. Therefore I look, and I think hon. Members, not only on this side, but on the other side of the House, look, for a policy that will do three things—that will do justice to the farmer, that will guarantee a minimum wage to the farm worker, and that will provide the necessary transportation factor to enable farming produce to be conveyed to the particular area where it can be profitably marketed.

Perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken on his very interesting maiden speech. I feel gratified that he has chosen agriculture as the subject of his maiden speech, and I am particularly glad that he has introduced the important topic of stability as an element of prime importance in regard to agriculture, because that ought to be one of the chief things to emphasise in this connection. When I heard from the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment some friendly jeers in reference to my previous speeches, I hoped that we were coming to some clear definition of what is the policy of the party opposite. I must confess to some disappointment that I did not see more clearly what it is which is proposed to accomplish the end we all desire, namely, to enable the farmer to do well by himself and by those who work for him.

We have frequently heard that something must be done by the Labour Government to enable a proper wage to be paid, and I trust that before the end of this Debate it will be clearer to us what to do. The Seconder told us that he was against any hypodermic injection. That is something valuable to know. He charmed us with literary and descriptive phrases, which recalled to my mind one for whom we had so much regard, his predecessor in the Yeovil Division. But the hon. Members also left things somewhat doubtful to me. The Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) introduced another panacea for the troubles of the farmer, namely, relief from taxation. That was something new following the other speeches. He said he did not wish to urge subsidies or financial aid of that kind, but only justice to the farmer.

The Motion is one with which I can find no fault, but perhaps on grounds slightly different from those advanced by the Mover. He uses the expression "alarm" on account of diminished food production, unemployment and lower wages, and he calls for a declaration, which I propose to give. I think that "alarm" is not at all an unhappy word to use in regard to agriculture. I feel certain alarm, but on different grounds. I endeavoured in the speeches to which the hon. Member alluded to explain why I feel that we ought to experience certain alarm, but it is on this ground, that we are not making the most serious use of our resources that we should make of them. We are far too much hampered in agriculture in this country by a phenomenon which prevails here rather more than in any other land, namely, the owning of land for pleasure, and in the use that we make of our resources.

The hon. Member spoke of the criminality which attaches to owners of land. It is, however, a fact that any one who has become sufficiently well-off to buy land rushes into the market. To put it plainly, there is far too much tendency in this country to make social status out of the possession of land. I do not know whether hon. Members recollect that, last year, Sir Robert Sanders confessed that the Ministry was unable to account for the vast diminution of several hundred thousands of acres in the returns of agricultural land. That is very largely accounted for by the extraordinary degree in which land formerly agricultural has become converted to pleasure aims, partly, of course, necessitated by the growth of towns. There are other parts of the country where farms are injured in high degree in various ways on account of pleasure owning.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to infer that the larger portion of this diminution is on account of pleasure or because of housing?

7.0 P.M.

Not the larger portion, but a very considerable portion. I will give a little illustration of what I mean as to the waste of land, and on account of which we ought to be alarmed. A part of the country in which most fear is felt is the arable area in East Anglia, where you get a very great number of districts in which the farmers are not allowed freely to keep poultry in poultry houses about the fields. That is a downright handicap upon economic bargaining, and it is one of the reasons why I am justified in saying that there is unnecessary waste which ought to cause us alarm. In foreign countries you get vastly greater concern for the complete economic use of all land. We suffer in agriculture, paradoxically, from excessive wealth. It was surprising the number of people who were prepared to neglect the full economic use of their land. It was very noticeable that even in war time there was a considerable number of occupiers of land who were so careless of making the complete use that might have been made of their farms that action had to be taken by county committees, or by the Ministry; and even in defiance of their own interests those farmers were misusing the land. If that could happen in war time, it is obvious that it can happen to a considerably greater extent in time of peace, and it is a strange fact that there are a good many men who are willing in business even to cut off their noses to spite their faces. You do get a great deal of land not fully farmed. In our view if that practice continues to prevail to any great extent, control will inevitably be introduced again, and the control of under-cultivation is certainly one of those proposals which we on this side of the House may find ourselves driven to, but which I trust will not be necessary. If it is not to become necessary it must be by greatly increased public interest stimulating some of our farmers to a more active form of farming.

Before we pass from the policy disclosed by those who have brought the Amendment forward, I would like to ask: Is or is not protection the Conservative policy? I was very much interested in reading not long ago an account of a meeting of the Unionist party at the Hotel Cecil in which I found that the leader of the party said the remedy which they proposed at the election could not have been a permanent remedy. He went on to say that their party had suffered in common with other parties, and had lost to a great extent the confidence of people in the country districts owing to the way in which agriculturalists have for years been made the shuttlecock of political parties. He went on, further, to say that the party would endeavour to devise a practical policy which might afford some substantial benefit. I understand that we have not yet got that policy. It seems a little premature to work up very much indignation with us because of the absence at this moment of a policy satisfactory to hon. Members opposite, when, for many years, the Conservative party have had an opportunity of developing exactly the policy which it prefers. It is necessary to remember that even agricultural protection was not proposed last year, and that as to protection generally, we are still left in doubt. The mover said it was only his own opinion and we are bound to take note of that.

The nation feels the strongest sympathy with the great difficulties of the farmers. Everyone knows it is an extraordinarily difficult trade to pursue, but the nation will not tolerate the waste of our resources, especially when they are neither so great nor so available as they were before the War. It can be shown that what was done by artificial aid arising from the War has done nothing but harm to the farmers. Stability cannot accompany artificial aid, and those who propose a temporary cure appear to me to be very bad friends of the farmer. They parade a mirage before him and distract him from permanent self help, and from discovering improvements in his position which might be lasting. Those who offer what can at the best be only temporary benefit may land the farmers once more in the cruel losses which fell on so many of them when the Repeal Act was passed, and they remind me of Abraham Lincoln's story of the farmer who was caught in the thunderstorm, and, being terrified, offered up an earnest prayer that there might be less noise and more light. I do think that those who really want to help the farmer, regardless of what political party they belong to, ought to put stability, and the necessity of it, in the forefront of any proposals to that end.

In regard to the question of index figures, it was said in the Debate that we are somewhat on the up grade. The statistical facts definitely confirm that. I noticed in a recent Debate in another place that the Duke of Devonshire said: ments are cheaper than agricultural produce. Fertilisers are distinctly cheaper, being 21 per cent. above pre-War. The cost of labour is not dearer relatively than the selling price of produce, wages being 55 per cent. above pre-War. Crops and livestock in 1923 were produced with costs of production on the average no higher than present selling prices, in fact, 1923 has been a very different year from the two previous years. Prices of produce and costs have been very stable, and I hope there is no reason to anticipate anything in the way of depression in this year. Arable crops have been tending to improve, and the disparity that we talked about last year, for instance, in connection with the Rating Act, between arable and grass farmers has been very much less. Even in arable districts, of course, the people are not entirely dependent on arable crops, and those non-arable crops have done fairly well. In 1923, potatoes have risen, and they are now 173 above pre-War.

The test of all this is the extraordinary demand for farms. It was quoted in another place last week that no less than 50 applications at once were received for a rather inferior farm in the Chilterns for which at least in the 'nineties there would have been do demand at all. The total arable area in June, 1923, was not much below the average of the five pre-War years. We were bound to expect that the artificial arable area of the War would go down. It could not be maintained without expecting entirely different conditions from those of pre-War. A further serious decline is more than doubtful.

Mention has been made of bankruptcies. The normal rate of bankruptcies over a long period is about 300 cases per annum. They were considerably higher last year, but bankruptcies always lag behind depression, and it does not follow that depression exists at the moment to account directly for those bankruptcies. It is an interesting thing that bankruptcies have not prevailed in the arable areas more than in the non-arable, because they are distributed over the whole of the counties. In 1923 there were 482 cases, but even that figure was less than the average which prevailed in 1893–1897. As against these disadvantages from which the farmers have suffered, we must put the benefit they received in regard to Income Tax in 1922, and to rates in 1923.

The subject of unemployment does not lend itself to exact statistical definition, but it has greatly improved and it is not on the increase. Although figures are not available there are general reports from the officers of the Ministry, and the information available shows that there is now very little unemployment among the regular workers. The arable farmers have probably, in the difficult years, cut down the number of labourers in most cases to the lowest possible minimum, but I hope that movement is going to be reversed, and that we shall see a larger number of men employed in the arable areas per 100 acres. In regard to wages, I must be careful that I do not encroach on the subject of legislation which I hope we shall be bringing in very shortly, but while wages are rising in other industries there is actual evidence that wages are still falling in agriculture. In the South of England, I am sorry to say, I hear of cases of a wage as low as £l; not, I hope, very numerous cases, but there certainly are some. When we talk of 25s., we must remember that the Norfolk men have not been working 50 hours but 48 a week.

Yes, I hope those cases are rare. What the Prime Minister said about two months ago no one can deny, namely, that it is impossible to get good value for such wages as that. There is nothing more uneconomic than a sweated wage. There is a good deal of interest in a regulated wage. Very often there are farmers who would like to pay a better wage than they are doing, but whose sense of social duty precludes them from paying as good a wage as they would like to pay. These are the very men whom regulation would protect.

Are the Conciliation Committee working where these £l a week wages are paid?

In Berkshire and Wiltshire. I am very glad that in this Debate, and in the Debates on foot- and-mouth disease, there were such frequent allusions to the wage question and so many appeals for better treatment of the labourer. We cannot go on fixing wages by the standard of the least efficient person, and I do hope that this augurs well for the passage through the House of a Bill which will really make it possible to establish some reason in regard to these labourers' wages. It is not enough that we should sympathise. We must provide a system which will effect a change. There is nothing more moving in the whole country than the spectacle of children in a village who are hungry for want of those things which their fathers are producing in abundance, and, considering the skilled character of his work, the farm labourer is as well worth paying as any man in any other industry.

I am asked what is the programme of the Government for dealing with the situation. We all agree, I hope, that the things which we have in view are, in the first place, the fullest use of our national resources, and, in the second, the maintenance on the land of a prosperous population for developing those resources. We want our policy to be comprehensive and to be permanent. This Parliament is a peculiar Parliament. It has no majority for nostrums in agriculture or anything else. If we are driven on that account to proposals which may be more cogent than any particular proposals of any party that may be something to the good. Some things are quite excluded in this Parliament. Artificial financial aid is excluded, and some, things that we on this side are very fond of are excluded. I do not know whether control is excluded. Many of the ideals of the Labour party are not realisable in this House. We all agree, I think, with what the Prime Minister said the other day that what agriculture needs is a stimulus to farmers to fight their own battles, and that I think we can all agree to give. If we want a motto for the principle or policy required to meet the case it seems to me that it is development. There has been in America a common use of another word in regard to agriculture. That is conservation, but I think that development meets the case not only in regard to our resources, but in regard to the lives of those who are immediately concerned.

To my mind there are two main methods of developing our resources—the supply of credit and the supply of knowledge. There are ways which my right hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland) has indicated. There are possible advances in connection with credit. He was good enough to say that we had done the right thing in helping forward co-operation. I think that he is on sound lines in saying that the State should be extremely generous in the supply of credit in one form or another. He alluded to the fact that the late Government had adopted a plan for making a beginning with loans to co-operative societies. It is the case, however, that the plan which we have put forward is a considerable extension of that one. He told us that the amount had not been increased, but the fact is that the sum allotted for this current year was £60,000 and we have made it £200,000. It is possible, and I hope that it will be found to be the case, that that will be inadequate to the general demand for assistance from farmers, and I hope that it will not be in vain to approach the Chancellor of the Exchequer if that state of affairs should eventuate. I have been fortunate in securing the acceptance of several gentlemen to serve on the Advisory Committee in regard to co-operation. The Committee is not quite complete enough for me to announce the names. I may, however, say that I feel gratified at the offer of assistance from the National Farmers' Union, and also the Co-operative Wholesale Society, in making the movement a success. They have shown their interest, and it is felt that by bringing farmers and consumers together in some such way the greatest progress will be made.

I do not want to announce the Committee until it is complete. There have been already definite applications made, it will interest the House to know, especially concerning bacon factories, dairy produce societies, and in one case a nursery glasshouse gardening society, and I hope that the scheme will prove to be definitely useful. For sums over £10,000 the Trade Facilities Act will come in useful. The other day a very interesting proposal was put forward by an hon. Member below the Gangway for allocating definite sums under the Trade Facilities Act. That is not a feasible thing, but I can state that the Treasury have agreed to an announcement which will appear in the Press setting forth to farmers what advantages can be offered to farmers in connection with dairy factories, auction marts, and fruit markets and other enterprises too large for the small co-operative schemes, and especially for sugar beet factories.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton made what was to me a very gratifying suggestion that the State should be generous in the matter of grants for beet factories. Such assistance by the State appears to me to be bordering very nearly on Socialism. I think that, if you are going the distance which he suggests, it might be better to go the whole way and have State factories, the profits from which, if any were made, would go to the advantage of the State. But the great thing is that there should be some guarantee of continuity and we should hear something about that on the Budget. The Government recognises the importance of helping any new industry which offers a chance of success.

Now, in regard to credit societies in particular, the reduced rate of interest has hardly had time to bear fruit, but there are already applications for help under that heading, and it is capable of extension, and particularly in connection with the question of liming. Last year Captain Pretyman interested the House by an estimate of the extent to which the country was in need of liming for the improvement of agriculture, and I think that perhaps there is nothing more important than the liming question to be attended to. If it can be assisted by the credit societies, as they now are, no one will be more satisfied than I. If it is not so dealt with it is possible that we must proceed to examine schemes for direct grants. The other legitimate means of helping the industry in its present position is the supply of knowledge, and there is an increasing demand from the farmers. Farmers are showing very great interest in research. It comes to light on the Advisory Committee of the Ministry, which represents various farming interests, and I believe that it is the case that in some counties more than 10 per cent., perhaps 15 per cent., of the sons of the farmers are making use of the agricultural institutes which some counties maintain.

But it is not the official knowledge that is valuable, but, as a great authority has said, the flexible minds which are developed and which make the farmer into a very much more efficient man. We are getting the Treasury to give more money for research. In the present year an additional £100,000 will be paid over to the Development Commission. We have provided for the foot-and-mouth disease research committee and also for economic investigation and the testing of scientific improvements on an economic scale, and for the advisory officers who were recommended by the Linlithgow Committee, and we shall be approaching rather more nearly to the standard of other countries in regard to the help of one sort or another which is given. But I believe that it is the case that in America £2,000,000 a year is spent on research and education alone. In the same category I would put the grants which the Ministry make for livestock improvements.

The privilege that has fallen to me has been to revive the grants to heavy horse breeding societies, which had been withdrawn two years ago. The milk-recording societies now represent about 125,000 cows, and the amount of money which is devoted to horses, and bulls—not so much to sheep—pigs, and milk-recording societies, if considerable, is extraordinarily profitable and represents one of the chief elements in any sound agricultural policy. Another thing in which we are doing more is drainage. It is said that there are, perhaps, 1,000,000 acres—there are probably more—of land which could profitably be well drained. We have increased the grants to the drainage boards for schemes some of which were already in existence. I think it possible that very much larger sums could be spent on drainage. We are also proposing to extend in the sphere of reclamation. There are some areas where reclamation can be profitably undertaken, and I hope to report on that a little later. We are making grants to the existing drainage boards. We are adding £60,000 to the £250,000 which was allotted for drainage for this last season, and we have extended the date for completion, which will facilitate local schemes, and we are making it possible to prepare at an earlier date for schemes which will be undertaken next winter.

In order to avoid misunderstanding, would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the £250,000 referred to is not an unemployment grant, spent, in the main, during the winter, and is money that is not going to drainage boards, but to local authorities for schemes which they put up?

Not only to local authorities but partly to drainage boards. Take next the question of the standard of life and a prosperous population on the land. I think that there has been too much neglect of allotments. I have sent out circulars to the local authorities concerned, pointing out their powers and asking for information. I know many cases where there is not only personal hardship to the men in a village, but there is waste of economic resources, because there are good men there perfectly capable and experienced in making money, for instance, out of pig-keeping, who are quite unable to get land at all or even to get a tolerable garden. I hope that something will come of this effort to secure allotments. There is also the question of small holdings. In 52 out of 62 counties in England and Wales, revision of rents is either complete or in progress. Abatements that have 'been given during the past two years amount to about £250,000 on a rent roll of £600,000—a very great measure of assistance, which hag enabled ex-service men to weather the storm. There is nothing that fosters better the independence and the power of the labourer to get better treatment, than the possession of land, and I am glad to say that whereas a little time ago the Ministry was flooded with correspondence aimed at getting revision of rents, the post-box is filled now to a great extent with letters regarding the possibility of acquiring land. There is a great revival of an interest and an intention to make use of land in new cases.

The question of railway rates is one that has exercised our attention a good deal. The trouble, of course, is that the Railway Rates Tribunal is beyond control. As the law stands—a law for which we were not responsible—we have no power to enforce our wishes. What I have done is to invite the National Farmers' Union to make such a statement of their case and their grievance as they would like to be brought before the Ministry of Transport and the Railway Rates Tribunal. We will do anything we can to assist their claim.

Village life is capable of being made brighter in various ways, apart from those I have mentioned. I think that in course of time we shall have to think of assistance in the provision of village halls and institutes, but that requires legislation, for which, perhaps, no time can be found this year. If you say, "beyond such schemes as these, and those mentioned by the right hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland), you ought to have something more directly and immediately beneficial to farmers at large," my reply is, "Tell us what scheme, within the possibilities of this Parliament and having the element of permanence, what other large classes of action can be devised for making things more immediately prosperous for the farmers on every farm." There is one means by which a good deal could be done, and that is to creat public interest in the question of the merits of British produce. I believe there is a great deal to be done in that connection. I am prepared to suggest the method recommended by the Linlithgow Committee. That Committee pointed out that there were certain English wheats which have all the merits, except dryness, of Canadian wheat. They will bring the farmer a better price but are not a means of profit to the farmer because the British public takes no interest in them. I think we may be able to work out schemes for bringing to public knowledge the merits of British produce In the end that would be an extreme advantage to farmers in various classes of farming.

While there is no panacea for bringing immediate prosperity to agriculture, I claim that what we are doing represents a basic and a continuous policy, and that taken together the methods suggested provide for farmers, even in the purely arable districts, means of making economies, and, therefore, even tend to extend the area of payable land. Apart from vote catching, does anyone differ from what I have said? I would like to challenge hon. Members to produce in this House a better programme, which could be carried in this House. I at least know that I have endeavoured to get from the best experts in every party further suggestions, and I do not find that, apart from things which are ruled out by the conditions of politics to-day, there is anything else proposed. The interest of the nation must be taken as a whole, and it appears that the nation will not tolerate anything which means that its resources should not be put to the best use for the advantage of all. The prosperity of agriculture is of prime importance, not merely in an economic way, but for the benefit of the nation, both physically and socially. What I hope that we are providing is a policy which will make the situation more permanently prosperous for the farmer and give him an opportunity of helping himself, which he never had before—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh !"] Yes, by the supply of credit, such help as he never had before. If one might characterise the idea behind what I deem to be a permanent, stable and beneficial policy, one might use the phrase which was so much used by Sir Horace Plunket in Ireland, "Better farming, better business, better living."

I could not help thinking, when the Minister of Agriculture was speaking, that he had forgotten that he was seated on the Government side of the House, because all through his speech he was asking us on this side to tell him what was our policy in regard to agriculture. I can assure him that we have one advantage by being in opposition, namely, that it has relieved us of that responsibility, which now rests upon him. We had hoped that he would have had something more encouraging to tell us to-day. At the beginning of his speech I thought the right hon. Gentleman still imagined that he was sitting on the back benches of a Liberal administration, because he repeated some of the old cries that were used years ago, perhaps in other language, about the land being made the pleasure-ground of the rich. Unless we have something more definite to make the land of this country a productive and paying concern in some of the poorer districts, it will be of no use, except as a playground. It is for the right hon. Gentleman and his Government to try to make it a profitable concern instead of one which can be run at nothing but a loss. The Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Wardlaw-Milne) was rightly confined to the single issue of arable farming. That is the branch of farming which, first of all, produces the greatest amount of the food supplies of this country. It also requires the greatest amount of labour to be employed on the land. Unfortunately, that is now the particular branch of farming which is in the most hopeless condition.

There are two different ways of approaching this subject. It is a question whether you look at this subject purely from the point of view of the industry itself, or from the point of view of its importance to the nation, and we have never so far been able to get a declaration from any Government as to whether they realise the importance of agriculture as a national industry. If you look at agriculture merely from the point of view of the industry, you can carry on the policy of the Ministry in the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has told us he: is going to carry it on. You can assist it by research; you can give it information and advice; you can—although I am bound to say so far it has not been very successful—protect its herds from disease. But more than that you are not entitled to do, and I believe those who are engaged in the agricultural industry, if they realise that the country only looks upon their industry in the same light that it does on other industries, as an industry and nothing more, they are quite content to be left alone to carry on that industry as they think best. If, on the other hand, it is held by the nation at large to be of importance as a national industry, then they maintain that the nation itself ought to realise that, and give them all the assistance that it can.

During the War, it is quite true, the nation did realise the importance of the agricultural industry in this country as it affected the welfare of the nation. They realised it nearly too late. It has been said that the War was a war to end war. I can assure the House that the two years that I had, I may say, the privilege of serving in the Army for the first two years in France, those gallant men with whom I had the honour of being associated had no false delusions that it was a war to end war. They fought in order to defend the British Empire from the German domination, and they realised that that was what they were fighting for. They also realise now that, however much we may say that was a war to end war, human nature remains what it is, and probably there will be wars in the future as there have been in the past. That ought to have been quite sufficient a lesson to this country of the importance of its agricultural industry. The state of affairs at the present time, five years after the War, leads us to suppose that the lessons that were taught to the nation at that time have been absolutely forgotten, and when one realises what, I think, the hon. Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Marley) laid stress upon in his interesting speech, that 75 per cent. of the people of this country are dependent entirely, at the present time, on imports of food from foreign countries, surely they must realise the importance of producing as much food in this country as we possibly can do.

Then we have the decline of the agricultural population. I took the opportunity the other day of looking up the censuses for the last few years in the Division which I have the honour to represent, and I find that there has been a steady decline of population in the Division for the last 40 years. That is purely a rural constituency. From the year 1910 to the last census, there was a decline in the Division of over 2,000 of the population. I do not know whether it is the policy of this country to continue to encourage these enormous collections of people in the towns rather than encourage them to remain in the country. If you want them to remain in the country, there is only one possible way to do it, and that is to make the industry upon which their livelihood depends a prosperous industry from which they can draw a living wage. It is a mere platitude to say, as many do say, that the interests of all those who are engaged in agriculture, landowner, farm occupier and labourer are identical. They are really identical, but, at the same time, they have different interests to provide for. The landlord has his money invested in the land or in property, which is equivalent to the money out of which he wishes to get some return. The tenant farmer wants to get the best he can out of his industry, and for the capital which he has invested in it. To a certain extent the interests of those two seem to be different, the one being to get a rent and the other to get interest on the capital he has invested in the farming industry. Then the labourer, obviously, wants to get the best conditions of life and the largest wages he can. All those interests seem, at first sight, diverse, but if hon. Members think a moment they will realise that none of these different interests can be met unless the industry as a whole is a paying concern. So that, really and truly, the interests of all, although they are diverse, are identical as regards the industry as a whole.

This Amendment, as I said, deals with arable farming. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) made a remark in reference to Scotland. So far as this Amendment is concerned, it does not apply to Scotland, because the conditions which obtain in a great many parts of Scotland are quite different from those which obtain in the purely arable districts of this country, and it is the purely arable districts of this country which are suffering most at the present time, and with which this particular Amendment wishes to deal, and the basis of arable farming, at any rate in England, is the growing of wheat. Unless you can grow wheat at a profit in those arable districts, it is quite impossible to make arable farming pay. What does the Government propose to do? The Minister told us a lot about co-operation. That was his remedy, or one of his chief remedies, for the difficulties of the farmer. On the other hand, he said that as regards the labourer a wage board would help. I can tell him definitely here and now that neither co-operation, nor wage boards, nor the combination of both, will enable the labourer to get a decent wage, with wheat at its present price; nor will it enable the farmer to grow wheat as a profitable undertaking. The cost of production under existing conditions is greater than the price obtained.

I am not sure whether the Minister himself, in the course of his remarks this evening, has made any reference to Denmark, but other hon. Members who have taken part in this Debate have alluded to Denmark as an instance where co-operation has been very successful. It is not right, because it is only deceiving the public to make out a case for Denmark as compared with this country as regards co-operation. Denmark, in the first instance, is a purely agricultural country, dependent on its agriculture and on its export trade. Those who make comparisons between this country and Denmark never tell us what rates, taxes, and so forth, or what we might call overhead charges, are imposed on agriculture in Denmark. They forget still more to tell us the conditions of labour in Denmark. Certainly labour in Denmark does not get a wage as much as 25s. a week for corresponding work, and the labourer certainly works a greater number of hours. I do not want to say we wish similar conditions to obtain in this country, but those who compare Denmark with this country, and encourage the public to think farmers are not doing their duty by co-operating as they do in Denmark, and that that is the solution of their difficulties, are only deluding the public as to the true facts of the case. On the other hand, wage boards are not going to make agriculture pay, or give the agricultural labourer a wage such as he expects to get from them. If hon. Members will cast their minds back to the latter end of the War, when wage boards were in existence under the Agriculture Act, they will remember that, while those wage boards were in existence, prices were on a continual rise, and the association which the agricultural labourer has with the wage board is a periodical rise in his wages. I verily believe that had wage boards continued for some time after the War, the agricultural labourer would not have attached to them such pleasant reminiscences of their operation as he is inclined to do at the present time. After all, a wage board properly constituted—

This is getting into the realm of legislation. We shall have to discuss these matters when a Bill comes before us.

8.0 P.M.

I am extremely sorry. I should be the last to disobey the ruling of the Chair. I was not referring to legislation, but only to the effect of wages boards in the past. At any rate, if you had at this moment an economic wage with regard to the price of wheat, you would have exactly the same wage that exists in the lowest paid part of the country at the preent time. We have had in the past ever so many different Commissions which have sat to review the whole conditions of agriculture in this country, especially the question of wages, and I think it is a generally accepted fact that an economic wage—that is to say, a wage which agriculture can pay at any particular time—has been equivalent to the price of a sack of wheat, which at the present time would work out at 25s. When wheat is about 50s. a quarter. We want to see a better wage than that, but you cannot get it unless something is done for agriculture. The right hon. Gentleman, following, no doubt, the policy which has been laid down by his Leader the Prime Minister, refuses to have anything to do with a subsidy or anything in the way of assistance of that nature. Yet he tells us that he is prepared to give credits either to co-operative associations or in the form provided for in the Credit Facilities Act. Unless he gives that credit at a lower rate of interest than the farmer can get it now, it is of no advantage to him, and if he gives it a lower rate of interest than the farmer can obtain it now, it is nothing more nor less than a subsidy in another form. It is not of the least use to say that you are to give assistance in that form and at the same time to say that you refuse to give a subsidy.

The present condition of the agricultural labourer and his wages, especially in the arable districts of the country, would lead one to believe that the best method he could adopt to get his wage raised would be for him to follow the precedent set in some other industries and go on strike. The agricultural labourer has been very loath to adopt these methods, and when he has, unfortunately for him, nobody seems to have taken very much interest whether he went on strike or not. Why is that the case? It is because the general public are not in any way interfered with or their comforts upset by a strike among agricultural labourers. They get their food from abroad, they get it at the same price, and they are not inconvenienced in any way. But what exasperates the agricultural labourer is that, realising that he is one of the most skilled workers in any industry, workers in other industries where not one quarter of his skill is required go on strike and get a rise of wages. In what way? By subsidy out of the rates instead of a subsidy from the Government itself. Take the recent strike in the tramways. Nobody would say, surely, that a tramway driver or a ticket puncher, or whatever he is called, is a skilled trade. It is certainly not one to compare with the agricultural labourer. I am told that under present conditions both of these particular classes of workers receive something in the nature of 70s. a week. Recently they have been on strike for a rise of wages. The agricultural labourer gets, in some cases, 25s. a week. He is highly skilled. Surely he is in an exasperating condition and absolutely hopeless. While one class of men go on strike who get 70s. a week, and get a rise in pay and are subsidised out of the rates, if the agricultural labourer says, "Give me some subsidy, or give the industry some subsidy so that it can pay me a higher wage," they say, "Oh, no. We cannot, under any circumstances, give any subsidies to any industry." The agricultural labourer cannot understand where the difference comes in, and he is quite right not to understand where the difference comes in.

There is only one branch of agriculture which would have any success by a strike, and that is the milk-supplying industry, because that is the only commodity that agriculture produces which is not open to competition from the whole of the world. The supply of milk would be cut off from the public, and those in the milk industry would get everything they wanted from the public. We expected it when we raised this Debate, although I for one moment conflicted with the ruling of the Chair, but the limits put on these discussions render them somewhat of an academical character, because one cannot go into questions of policy when one embarks on a debate of this kind. I must say that, after all the professions of up-to-date progressive Measures which have been held out to us by the party opposite, it was disappointing to listen to the somewhat humdrum policy which we used to hear from Radical Administrations 15 or 16 years ago. Nothing further is held out except two policies, one in reference to the sugar-beet industry, with regard to which, I understand, we may expect continuity of policy when the Budget is introduced, and the other in reference to lime, the lack of which, is causing great injury to the fertility of the land. On previous occasions, when Debates on agriculture have been held in this House, I have been always somewhat disappointed that more of those who represent industrial areas in this country have not taken part. Whether it is that they are loath to take part in discussions about which they may not be thoroughly informed, or whether it is that they do not take a deep interest in agricultural questions, I cannot say, but what I do know is, that there never will be any real future for the agricultural industry of this country until those who dwell in the towns realise that its prosperity is of national importance to them as well as to everybody else.

I will not trespass on the time of the House by going into the many interesting questions which have been raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down, because, as I understand this Amendment which is under discussion, it calls attention in the first place to the question of high railway rates, which burden the industry very much, and, secondly, to the danger of reduced food production in this country and of further unemployment resulting from it owing to the lack of profit in farming in the arable areas. I only want to say in regard to railway rates that I think the House fully realises the difficulty in which the Railways Act of 1921 has placed the farming industry and other industries in regard to the railway rates in this country. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Agriculture might, when he conies to put the case of the farmer before the Railways Tribunal, emphasise in the first place that the railway rates should hear some proportion to the value of the produce moved, and that, in the second place, railway companies might in their own interest, as well as the interests of agriculture, quote cheap rates for commodities which are going on to the farms of this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Acland) mentioned the question of lime. I believe the need for lime in many parts of England is very great indeed, and by moving large quantities of lime on to the farms, which often are a considerable distance from the lime-kilns and lime quarries, the railway companies will get a return at a subsequent date in the increased produce which will come off those farms and which will have to be carried by the railway companies away to the large centres of population.

Turning to the question of arable farming and the present position, I think we all know and we all deplore the danger of a reduced food supply owing to the fact that arable land is not? so profitable as previously. I think also we may confine the problem in that respect to the light land areas of this country. The difficulty I see with regard to them is not so much that they may go down to grass, because they are not usually soils which are suitable for good pasture, but that they will fall down and he rendered quite useless. I suggest that it is perhaps for the farming community—and nobody knows their business better than the farmers of this country, or, at all events, nobody should know their business better—it is for them to consider whether they should not at this stage turn their attention to an alteration in the methods and aims of production on arable land. I think in the past it has always been the wheat crop which has been considered the main crop. I think if there was an extension of arable dairying, arable stock-raising, and the keeping of pigs and poultry, it might be found that on those light land areas farming could be made profitable.

I want to devote the few minutes during which I will detain the House to another problem: the employment of labour on land and the increased yield from land. We have heard a good deal about the question of wages. We on these benches feel very strongly that everything should be done to make possible and to make certain the payment of a reasonable wage, as big a wage as possible, from the farming industries to the agricultural labourer. I wish to speak of agriculturists who neither pay nor receive wages. I refer to the smallholders of this country, a large and very skilful body who, with great patience and enterprise carry on even during these times of depression. I think it is true to say that in other countries there has been a greater development of small holdings than in Great Britain, but if we consider for a moment the success of the Small Holdings Act of 1908, and still more the success of the Land Settle- ment Act, 1919, we can claim that the small holdings system has taken root in Great Britain, and there is no reason why small holdings should not be further developed.

There are many who criticise the effectiveness of small holdings and they usually attack the system on two lines. In the first place it is claimed that the smallholder cannot make a living, and in the second place it is pointed out that he has too hard a life—a harder life than the agricultural labourer. I submit that the demand for small holdings in this country is the real test as to whether or not this form of occupation should be encouraged, and the demand at the present time is considerable. I shall quote to the House figures showing the percentage of small holdings failures recorded before and since the War, because they show that to a very large extent the small holdings have been successful. Out of the 14,000 small holdings under the pre-War Acts 4 per cent. of failures have been recorded in six years, and out of 19,000 post-War small holdings, 6½ per cent. of failures have been recorded up to March, 1923. It is quite possible there have been further failures since that date, but I think these figures are remarkable, considering how difficult it was for many of the ex-service men to establish themselves in a new occupation after the War.

I put forward the case of the small holdings in connection with this Amendment, because I believe not only that small holdings are an avenue of advance to the agricultural labourer, giving him a greater sense of independence, but also that small holdings on the whole produce a larger yield from the land and employ a bigger population on the land. I quote the case of an estate in Cheshire of 853 acres in order to confirm that point. This estate was turned into small holdings. Before the change was made it consisted of six farms employing 31 men. After the creation of 31 holdings it employed 132 men. On the other hand, taking the head of stock as a test of the greater yield from the land—and it is only one test—before the change, and while the estate still consisted of six farms, there were 200 head of cattle on the land. After the change there were 355.

I ask the Minister of Agriculture if it is not possible to reverse the decision of the Ministry with reference to the provision of small holdings? According to an answer given to me earlier in the Session the applicants at the present moment number something like 6,000 ex-service men and over 4,000 civilians. Quite possibly these figures do not entirely represent the true position at the present moment, because, as the House is aware, the Ministry's restrictions in July, 1920, as to capital cost and the annual loss on small holdings, have brought the provision of small holdings to an end for the time being. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should now test by inquiries through the small holdings committees of the county councils the present demand for small holdings. Many of us have had complaints with regard to the rents charged to the smallholders of this country. No doubt there is a great variation from county to county, and in some cases the rents may be excessive, and it was reassuring to have from the right hon. Gentleman a figure showing the reductions of rents which have been made. I hope the Minister will keep in mind the answer given by him the other day with reference to the basis on which these rents are now to be fixed, namely, the "fair letting value" of the holding.

Regarding the cost of small holdings, it was the great rise in the cost which brought the post-War extension of this particular provision for agriculturists to a standstill, and it is the cost which will govern future development. Before the War no loss was incurred to the county councils by the provision of small holdings, but the expense of the post-War holdings has been considerable. About £15,000,000 was spent in setting up on the land 19,000 ex-service men. On the other hand, the rent roll from these holdings amounts to over £600,000. It would be of interest to know what is the Ministry's estimate as to the loss to date. I suggest that with the great decrease in the cost of land and buildings—because since 1921 there has been a very large reduction in the selling price of land and the cost of erecting buildings—it should be possible now to go forward again with the small holdings movement. In conclusion, I would like to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman that this form of assistance by State loan would be a very valuable way—not the only way, but one direction —in which to increase the number of persons employed on the land and to benefit a section of our rural population.

I have a good deal of sympathy with every word that was uttered by the hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Hobhouse) with regard to small holdings. The benefit of small holdings, undoubtedly, both to the individual and to the State, is very great, and anything the country can do to encourage small holdings it should do, in my opinion. I would like to mention, in this connection, the direct assistance which the Government could afford in the matter of the rating of small holdings. Immediately a small holding is constituted, not only does the rent per acre rise considerably, but the assessment also is very greatly increased, and, by comparison with a large farmer, the smallholder is placed at an enormous disadvantage. The mere fact of this circumstance induced me to vote against my party when the question of a reduction in agricultural rating was proposed, and it is a subject that could well occupy the mind of the Minister of Agriculture. I am not prepared to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wells in saying that the smallholder necessarily increases production, for I am not quite sure that his means permit him to work his land sufficiently well to enable that to be accomplished, but he does produce a healthy population and a hard-working population, a population, of which the State should have every reason to be proud. To that extent, I am in full sympathy with smallholdings, and I think my hon. Friend put the question, if I may say so, in a very forcible and telling manner.

I have listened to practically the whole of this Debate, and I have not yet heard one word touching the core of what to me is the most important part of the agricultural question at the present time, and that is the immediate increase of agricultural wages. How is that to be accomplished? I admit that on the better lands of the country it is possible, by the institution of agricultural wages boards, to increase the present wages of the agricultural labourer, but that is not common to the whole of the country, and in the Debate this evening I have felt a lack of appreciation and a desire to apply general principles to this question of agriculture, when, I am afraid, general principles cannot be applied. The circumstances of agriculture differ so greatly in different areas that nothing in the nature of a general application of principles is possible, but that does not affect the question of the wages of the man upon the land, and we all agree—Ihave never heard a dissonant voice in this House on the point—that the position of the agricultural labourer ought to be improved.

Personally, I think the position of agriculture to-day is largely due to the action of the late Government, or the Government preceding it. That Government brought in and passed the Agriculture Act, and although it was in many instances a very bad Act, it did possess some merits at any rate, and the action of that Government in repealing the Act was largely responsible for the present state of affairs. My hon. Friends opposite, who are now demanding that the Minister of Agriculture should produce a panacea for all the ills of this industry, are somewhat unreasonable, when we consider their attitude in connection with the agricultural question at that period. The Agriculture Act guaranteed prices. I suggested in this House at the time that the principle of a guaranteed price was a bad one, but I supported the Act because I thought that half a loaf was better than no bread. Immediately, however, the Act was brought into operation, or almost immediately, the Government of the day hastened to repeal it, and my hon. Friends opposite made no effort of any description to amend it. It could have been amended and made an instrument that would have been for the benefit of agriculture, but no amendment was made.

The farmers helped them to repeal it. The promise of £4 an acre for their oats and of £3 an acre for their wheat was a great bribe to them at the time, and they helped the Government to repeal that Act, but there was something more than that that induced them to repeal it, and that was the abolition of the wages boards. Their cry was "No control," but I am afraid they are going to have control now without any guarantee. We are faced at the present time with the working population on the land subject to a wage that everybody describes as barbarous. One hon. Member went further and described it as hellish, and while I will not go so far as that, I will say that it is very bad indeed, and that the condition of the workers on the land is deplorable. My hon. Friends opposite largely constitute the Agriculture Committee of this House, and I will make a suggestion to them. I think the Government of that day let agriculture down, and I think the industry has a real grievance. It could reasonably have received some consideration, in my view, especially because the present condition is largely the result of that action. It is true we could not hope to maintain the prices that prevailed during the War, but the repeal of the Agriculture Act certainly accentuated the difficulties of the farmer and brought about the slump from which we are suffering even at the present day.

I made the suggestion at that time, and I still think some consideration might be shown to people who even wilfully pull their nose to spite their face, and I have always felt that one thing that the Labour Government might have done when they came into office—and, so far as the Conservative party are concerned, they could hardly have opposed it—was to have given something in the nature of a bonus to agriculture, not on an acreage basis, however, as they proposed at the last Election. That was, indeed, a stupid suggestion, because the country was then asked to pay £l an acre for something that they had already, and there was not the promise contained in that offer of an increase of a single acre of arable land. There was not even the promise of improving the position of the agricultural labourer, because the farmer had the right to accept it or otherwise. Therefore, there was no good in the proposal that the late Government made in that respect. It was not worth consideration, because if a farmer employing a small number of men liked to accept it, it was all right, but the farmer who employed a large number of men would not benefit to any special degree by the application of the principle of the payment of £l an acre. The offer of £1 an acre for the general agricultural or arable area of this country was—I do not want to be offensive—a stupid proposition, and I think the country and even the agriculturists showed their appreciation of it. They did not think it was possible. Even if the Government had come back to power, I believe that, when the proposal was brought to the test of cold reason in this House, it could never have been brought to a satisfactory conclusion. I do not believe they could ever have redeemed the promises they held out, so I do not think we need consider that question any further.

But the question still remains as to how we can immediately improve the condition of agriculture. Suggestions as to drainage, liming, and in various other directions have been put forward—all excellent in their way. Proposals have been brought forward by the Minister of Agriculture—excellent in their way. I do not suggest that anyone could possibly complain of the various remedies that have been suggested, but they are not of immediate application. It would take years before they could be of any special benefit in increasing the wages of the agricultural labourer. That is the most important thing at the present time to assist. The farmers can drag along. But the agricultural labourer is at the present time drifting from the land. He is going into the urban areas, and swelling the already swollen condition of the labour market there. I think the thing to which we ought to address ourselves in this House is to how we can improve his condition.

The opinion of the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) was the rates and taxes were too heavy upon the land. He complained he was losing money all the time on his land. There is an easy way out of that difficulty. He can cease to possess it, and he will gain money in the process. I do not think his arguments were very strong. But there is a real difficulty in this question as to how we are going to improve the condition of the agricultural labourer. The Wages Board will do it in some areas; but in most areas, especially if a minimum wage is fixed, it will have the effect, I am afraid, of increasing unemployment in some places, because the land cannot afford it. So far as the area which I represent is concerned, I do not think we want anything except to be left absolutely alone. That is all for which the farmers in my area ask. They are tired to death of Government interference. They only want to be left alone to pursue their course. But they happen to have very good land. That is not the case over the whole of the country. II is the light lands to which I would specially address myself in respect to the necessity of some Government assistance. I wonder whether even now there cannot come into the mind of the Government an idea to do something for these light lands, especially the corn-producing lands of this country, which would have a dual effect. Such a proposal would make the Wages Board acceptable to the farmer, for there is nothing he hates more. He was the more induced to accept the repeal of the Agriculture Act owing to the abolition of the Wages Board than for any other reason. But the farmers' necessity in the light land areas are so great that I believe if the Government could bring in a scheme by which they could offer an acreage bonus for wheat or for cereals, it would, to some extent, solve some of his difficulties.

I notice that the Amendment with which we are dealing also deals with another question—that of the railways. That is applicable to the whole of the land, and not only in respect to what is exported from the land but what is imported by the farmer for the purposes of the cultivation of that land. I remember very well, when this Act was being passed through the House of Commons, remarking to the then Minister of Transport that if he succeeded in carrying his proposals through the House that he would forge a yoke upon the necks of the industrial and agricultural communities in this country that they would find it very difficult' to release themselves from. It was not likely that he would take very much notice of a back bencher on the Labour side of the House, but I think that events have proved that what I prophesied has to a very great extent come to pass. Today we are faced with the fact that the agricultural industry is still compelled to pay from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. over and above pre-War rates. The question as to the carriage of potatoes was raised by the Mover of the Resolution. We were paying last year from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. over and above pre-War rates for our potatoes, and we were receiving no Lincolnshire, half the amount that we received in pre-War times, so that while the railways were demanding from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. more on the carriage of these potatoes, the farmer was receiving 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. less.

I do not say that the Railway Rates Tribunal can adjust railway rates at a moment's notice to suit the exigencies of agriculture, but the proportion was so ridiculous, and the condition of the producers was so very bad at that time, that it really brought home to me, at any rate, the consciousness of the wickedness of the amalgamation and absorption of the railway companies, and in the matter of railway rates. Even at this time, no matter how depressed is agriculture, or how difficult the circumstances, there is no elasticity so far as railway rates are concerned. They maintain their present position, and if any question is asked in this House you are referred to the Railway Rates Tribunal, over which no one seems to have any control of any description. This is a subject that I think might really engage the attention of the Minister of Agriculture and of this House. I do not think the condition of the railways is so bad that a really distressed industry, and one that everyone agrees is paying wages below the level of an ordinary decent subsistence, Should be penalised to the extent that it is at the present time by paying such excessively high rates. It would help materially if some means could be brought about by which rates could be adjusted in some measure to these circumstances. Not only is it a difficult problem, but it is beset with many difficulties.

It is one of the series of burdens that agriculture has to bear at the present time. I do not want to go much further, for I know the Minister wants to get his Measure through almost immediately, but I do appeal to him most strongly to consider the question as to how he is going to bring about increased amelioration of the condition of the agricultural labourer. By the Wages Board alone he cannot do it. He must devise some means, in my opinion, by which he can improve the condition of the labourer. I was very much interested with some remarks of a Socialistic colleague who said that any interference on the part of the State would mean the nationalisation of the agricultural industry. I do not think it need go so far as nationalisation at present: but I do believe that the country will willingly consider any proposal, and I am not without hope that hon. Friends below the Gangway—especially after the debate in this House a few days ago—would give their support if by any means we do something to improve the condition of the agricultural labourer of this country.

In rising to support the Amendment before the House, may I crave the indulgence of hon. Members for a new Member addressing the House for the first time? I desire to associate myself with those who have drawn attention to the fact that this question is not a problem of any one class, but concerns all three classes—landowners, farmers and agricultural labourers. A good deal of the difficulty in tackling this problem is one to which we have not to any extent in any other industry where the distinction between capital, management and labour is fairly well defined. In agriculture, however, we have considerable overlapping. The farmer is both manager and capitalist to some extent, and the landlord is to some extent a manager. There are cases where you have all three interests combined in one, and that is one of the great difficulties in dealing with this problem. Whatever the policy of this country may be, what the landowner and the farmer require more than anything else is a consistent policy. Whatever that policy may be, I believe the other two classes can adapt themselves to it, but it depends a great deal on what the nature of that policy is whether the labourer will be able to carry on better than he is doing at the present time. I make no excuse for dealing with this problem from the point of view of the agricultural labourer. In that part of the county of Norfolk which I represent we have to some extent rich land, and on that land the problem of wages is nothing like so acute as on the lighter land. It is on the lighter land where the agricultural labourer is drawing something less than 24s. a week. In that part of the county there is a universal request for a minimum wage of 30s., and I think all parties in this House, and not only agricultural Members, will receive that request with a good deal of sympathy.

What is precisely the problem which the Government have to face so far as the agricultural labourer is concerned? The question is whether a wage of 30s., and the consequent raising of other wages which are at present above the minimum now paid, is economically possible at the present time, and, if not, what can be done to make it economically possible? It is perfectly true that industries or individuals can go on for some time paying a wage which is not in the long run economically possible, but if the farmer goes on paying a wage which is not economically possible, there is only one end to it, and that is that he must go into the Bankruptcy Court, or else he must bring down the wage to what is economically possible. Any device such as the wages board, which will compel the farmer to pay wages which are not economically possible, is bound to mean disaster. If he pays such a wage he goes to the Bankruptcy Court, and if he does not pay it the labourer will probably lose his work and have to join the unemployed. If the farmer comes to the conclusion that he cannot pay such a wage, his cure is to dismiss his labourers and turn his land down to grass, and that is probably what he would do. Take the case of a small-holder who is employing labour. In his case I contend that it is not possible to turn his land down to grass, because a small holding cannot be worked economically if turned down to grass. He will be forced either to get rid of his holding or to go into the Bankruptcy Court by paying this uneconomical wage.

To-night we have heard something about labour being the first charge upon industry. That is a remark which the Prime Minister made some little time ago in this House, and it is one with which everybody has a great deal of sympathy. But what precisely does it mean? What is a first charge? Can the farmer make this wage a first charge on the industry? Are there not other people, such as the tax collector and the rate collector, who think they have a prior charge? Is this to be only a first charge on what is available for the farmer and his labourers? If the farmer is making a sufficient income to pay a wage of 30s. or whatever it may be, then no doubt it can be made a first charge, but if he is not making sufficient to do this then he cannot pay that wage.

I feel sure the Government, when they face this question, will find that it is not economically possible to pay this wage and they will have to meet the difficulty with some kind of help. I do not mean by means of a subsidy, but the kind of help which the Minister of Agri- culture has indicated, and this can be done in all sorts of minor ways. They must have help, and if they do not get it the labourer is not going to get his minimum wage of 30s. These various measures which I have called minor measures are of great importance. The question of co-operation has been extensively discussed, and although in my opinion it will do something to help the farmers, it will not do a great deal to set agriculture really on its legs once more. I do not suppose that the Minister of Agriculture contends that that alone will be sufficient.

What other measures have been suggested by the Government? The Prime Minister suggested that farmers should be taught how to keep accounts. All those interested in business must agree that a system of keeping accounts, particularly costs accounts, is of immense value, because they show whether you are making a profit or loss and where you can make improvements. But it does not matter how good your system of accounts may be, that alone will never make a profit. The only people who can make profits by means of accounts are people who, as a suitable reward, appear at the Old Bailey and spend a period of time in one of His Majesty's prisons. Accounts alone will not make profits, though I grant they will indicate the way in which a farmer can improve his business so as to make a profit in future. We have also been told about rating reform, with which I cannot deal to-night, and, of course, we have had various measures, such as credit facilities and so on, which, I agree, are of value; but, having talked these matters over with agriculturists generally, and from my own knowledge, such as it is, do feel that what the Government have so far produced is not sufficient to meet this great problem. I do not for a moment say that it is valueless. It is of value, but it is not anything like sufficient to meet this great problem.

What agriculture wants at the moment, I believe, is immediate help. These small measures will help, and will gradually go on improving the position of agriculture, but none of these measures that have so far been suggested is likely to furnish that immediate help which is needed. We have heard to-night about the sugar beet industry, and I believe that, from the point of view of the. problem with which we are dealing to-night—the unemployment mentioned in the Amendment—the sugar beet industry is of enormous importance, and I was glad to hear the Minister say that he is considering the question of helping these sugar beet factories. It may be a very big industry if it is helped at the start, but what it wants, more than anything else, is to know where it stands—whether the exemption that it has at present is going to continue on the present basis, and what is going to be the effect of a reduction, if a reduction takes place, in the duty on sugar. These are the things that the industry wants to know; otherwise it cannot develop with a sure knowledge of what is going to happen in the near future. If it can only get over the next few years—I do not say a year or two, but five or 10 years—I believe there is substantial reason to believe that it will be a permanent and successful institution in this country.

9.0 P.M.

I should like now to say one word about a problem which is of vital moment to the farmer at the present time—that of foot-and-mouth disease. If a stand-still Order is the only Measure that will eradicate this disease, I agree that it must be a stand-still Order for a considerable period. I think the Minister said at least a month, and he suggested possibly the 1st May. I suggest that that date may not be the best one to choose. I think that what is really required is that the Order should not come into force until the cattle to a great extent have been moved to the summer pastures, and it does not follow that the first of the month is the best date. I hope the Minister will carefully consider the representations of the agricultural community on the question of the date on which the Order should take effect. Having listened throughout the Debate, I feel that the failure of the Minister of Agriculture to produce a real cure for the problem will be to a great extent similar to what has happened with regard to labour. The Minister of Labour has failed to produce his rabbit out of his hat, and I am perfectly certain that the farmers in my constituency in Norfolk, having heard what the Minister has said to-night, will agree that the rabbits that the Minister of Agriculture has produced are even more microscopic than those of the Minister of Labour. I quite agree, if I may say so, with the proposals of the Minister with regard to research. It is on the lines of research and science that we are most likely to help the agricultural industry, and I welcome that; but, as I have said, I feel that the proposals, so far as they have been introduced to this House, are nothing like sufficient to meet the great problem with which we are faced.

The Minister of Agriculture adverted to the phenomenon of the dwindling of agricultural land, and it is a very striking and significant phenomenon. In 1891, for every 1,000 of population in the country, there were 1,000 acres available of agricultural land. At the present day there are available only 771 acres of agricultural land per 1,000 of population. That, of course, is due to the fact that, while the country does not grow, the population is growing all the time. It is also due to the fact that, while the population is growing, the agricultural area of the country is shrinking owing to the fact that the towns all the time are slopping over into the country. We are hoping that, in the near future, a big attempt will be made to improve the housing in urban districts, and that, if successful, will mean that, progressively more rapidly, the agricultural land will be entrenched upon. Even if the process goes on only at the same rate, and not at an accelerated rate, by 1950 there will only be, per 1,000 of population in this country, 500 acres available of agricultural land. That emphasises enormously the importance of getting the maximum cultivation out of the land, and of getting it cultivated in such a way that it will carry the maximum population—if, as I imagine we all do in this House, we attach importance to maintaining the rural population. Therefore, I heard with great satisfaction the references of the Minister to the small holdings movement. That is one of the two points that I wish to make. My hon. Friend the Member for the Holland Division (Mr. Royce) was doubtful whether the smallholder increased the output of the land. I think I can satisfy him that, at any rate in Wiltshire, he does. Whether it is universally true or not, it is undoubtedly true that under the small holdings system the land will carry more population and a healthier, more intelligent, and more enterprising population than otherwise. The fact that in the last few years small holdings have been rather under a cloud ought not to obscure the real hope that lies in the promotion of the movement. There have been since the War, as we all know, instances of colonies of ex-service small holdings which have been very badly managed—managed by people who did not understand agriculture, settled with smallholders who were town-bred and without any knowledge of country life or country work, and, in many instances, on land quite unsuitable in the first instance for small holdings.

It is surprising, in view of that, that the figures quoted by my hon. Friend earlier in the evening should be available, namely, that only 65 per cent. of the post-War small holdings have turned out failures. I think that is very extraordinary; and the post-War record is certainly not typical of what may be expected of the small holdings movement. The pre-War record, my hon. Friend told us, showed failures amounting to only 4 per cent., and that when, in the days before the War, land acquired for small holdings was frequently not the best land available, whereas post-War a much better class of land as a rule has been purchased for the purpose. Those figures go to show that the email holdings movement worked in an agricultural county by people who understand agriculture, and used for settling people of agricultural birth and upbringing, is a success, and therefore it was with very great satisfaction that I heard the Minister's sympathetic references to the small holdings movement. I would merely press upon him that there is evidence that there is a strong demand for more small holdings in those parts of the country where the small holdings' do best and that there can scarcely be any activity of his Department more likely to produce an immediate though modest return than the extension of the small holdings movement. The chief obstacles are the comparatively nigh rents, although I know that now the Commissioners have authority to let at an economic rent and without relation to the costs. But the high rents carry with them high rates, and in many instances a high tithe rate too, and the best way to get down the rents on small holdings is to reduce the economic rents until the smallholder is not paying more for his land than his neighbour the large farmer. If that can be done, as I believe it can be done, even if it means, in the first instance, as it undoubtedly does, a loss to the Exchequer, that is a loss which has to be cut once for all, and in connection with agriculture there are few ways in which money can be better invested. I also heard with great satisfaction the Minister's sympathetic reference to the beet sugar industry. From the agricultural point of view, the return from the land and the effect of that particular cultivation on the cereal crops that follow it in rotation, beet sugar cultivation is well worth our encouraging as much as we possibly can.

I want to join with others in saying how disappointed I am with the speech of the Minister, because, all said and done, he has gone through list of things small in themselves, and of course, good, but he has never touched the real root of the question of dealing with the poorer men on the poorer land, both farmers and men. He hinted that, of course, he could not do this and could not do that. If he has a real scheme- for doing good, why not bring it out and let us discuss it, and not say, "In this Parliament we are prohibited from doing this or that." That is rather a poor line to take, and it rather points to the fact that the policy of nationalisation, for I imagine that is what it is, is not a scheme which really commends itself to the right hon. Gentleman. It might, perhaps, to the hon. and gallant Gentleman beside him. I can imagine the Chancellor of the Duchy taking a great interest in that sort of movement. I can imagine him joining in the cry of "Down with the landlords." [HON. MEMBERS: "He is a landlord himself!"] I know he is, but he will not deny that he would join in that cry with the greatest pleasure. I have heard him many times in the House, and he has always come back to that point, and I know he will not deny it. But if there are in the minds of the Government things which are for the benefit of agriculture as a whole, why not bring them up? Why has he not the courage, for instance, of the right hon. Member the Minister of Health who came out in his true colours last night and was prepared to do or die, though he was not allowed to do either, by the action of the hon. Member for Penistone. He wanted to show what he was going to do from his point of view if he got the chance. If the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind schemes which he honestly believes are going to be beneficial to agriculture, why not come out and do something which might be worth while bringing forward? The fact is plain that the policy of nationalisation will not stand a minute's investigation. It is all very well to say the Government is in office, but not in power, and cannot deal with it, but he does not want to deal with it, because that policy is very like the report of the Independent Labour party.

Coming to the main point of our discussion, the question of doing something for arable land, what do I notice in the forefront of that Report? It says: lands 500 or 600 feet above sea level, where you have the ordinary type of farm and the poorest grazing land, which only carries a certain number of sheep, what is the good of that sort of scientific work Yet we are trying to pay the same wages for our men up there as the farmers in the fruit lands are paying. The problem I want the right hon. Gentleman and the country to face is how to deal with those farms where we know that every kind of corn growing is carried on at a loss and the only thing that is carrying them through is the useful price they are get ting for their sheep. That is the problem we have to face. The right hon. Gentle man in his speech, in which he touched on many interesting points, did not touch that point, and has not shown us how he proposes to deal with it. The land I am speaking of is very lowly rental, only about 5s. to; 6s. per acre, so that nobody can possibly say—

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present

The hon. Member who moved the count called attention to the fact, which we all know, that on the Government part, at any rate, the is very little interest in the subject of agriculture. The scarcity of Members all through this Debate on the Government Benches has been a proof that, while at election times they are very keen on wages boards, and so on, when they are trying to get votes, they are very sparsely represented in this House when we come to discuss agriculture.

May I ask, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether you have really declared that there is a House present?

I found 40 Members present, and I called upon Major Wheler.

The hon. Member who called the count really demonstrated the fact that' very little interest is taken in agriculture by supporters of the Government.

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to make some inquiries into the great shortage of sheep in this country. To the upland farmers sheep are the biggest benefit. When they can fold their sheep on the land they are able to get better produce. Therefore, bearing in mind the great shortage of sheep, which is becoming more acute, and their value to this type of farmer, I hope- the Minister will institute an inquiry into the decreasing numbers of sheep. You can travel over the country to-day and you will find that there are many counties where you can go for miles and never see a flock of sheep. That is a very serious sign of the decline in agriculture. Having regard to the value of a small flock of sheep to the smaller type of farm, I would urge the Minister to direct his attention to that matter to see if something cannot be done to stimulate a bigger number of sheep in this country.

With respect to the subject of railway rates, the Central Chamber of Agriculture passed a resolution a few days ago. The essence of the resolution is this, that about 30 years ago the Great Eastern Railway used to supply non-returnable boxes to farmers. These boxes were standardised and were of great value to the smaller type of farmer, who used them a great deal. That was the cheapest form of transferring agricultural produce from the producer to the consumer. Seeing that that was possible 25 or 30 years ago, would it not be possible to approach the railway companies and see whether they cannot do something of this kind again? When we talk of trying to help the smallholder and the small farmer we ought to bear in mind the value of a system of this sort, because by means of these non-returnable, standardised boxes there is a ready way by which a considerable amount of agricultural produce can be carried on the railways from the producer direct to the consumer at cheaper rates.

I regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not touched on the major question, but I remember his own words, that there is no panacea for bringing immediate prosperity to agriculture. I would commend these words to the hon. Gentlemen behind him who at the last General Election seemed to think that everything would go right, so far as labour was concerned, if a Labour Government came to office. They now realise that the problem they have to face is one of great difficulty, and one which will never be solved by any mere party programme, because it can only be solved by all parties in the State working together for the common good.

I have listened to the whole Debate, and have arrived at the conclusion that there is general unanimity of opinion as to the problem with which agriculture is faced. The spirit of the Debate has been exemplary. I have appreciated very much the fact that the whole Debate has been lifted above any party spirit. That is most desirable, particularly in big national problems and issues. No one has suggested that the Labour party is in any way responsible for the depression of agriculture. The Minister of Agriculture, during his very brief stay at the Department has brought to the House from time to time practical suggestions which will be of a permament nature and will bring good to the community and to the agricultural industry. No one so far has criticised the practical suggestions he has made. It is true they do not solve the problem, but it would be as well if we review the problem in its bigger and more general aspects. The hon. Member for St. Pancras gave a very clear indication of one of the chief causes of agricultural depression. Our national industry, wealth and outlook, as focussed particularly in this Chamber, are largely industrial and manufacturing. You can sense in this House any day the urban and industrial psychology as against the rural and agricultural. That development no man or party can avoid. By the very natural flow of industry and the development of the system which we call capitalism, there has been brought into play a new force across the seas. With the export of our commodities and with our Imperial policy we have got very big tracts of fertile soil developing and anxious to find a market. If Imperialism is good, and if our colonising system has resulted in good to the world, we have got to realise that is largely the result of our manufacturing power and our power to colonise, and of the natural and ready response of our Colonies to the advances in chemistry and mechanism by which they are able to send into cur ports an article of food which the urban areas need.

The big urban population naturally is anxious for cheap food, and the Colonies are anxious for a market. You cannot read colonial news without realising that the Colonies are now anxious to develop their markets within their own boundaries, and we shall have to look further afield for our markets. They will naturally desire to send to us the food products of those great tracts now being opened up. We have a problem that the Independent Labour party has tried to focus. As an organisation they are trying to make a practical contribution to what is the root problem of the whole discussion this afternoon, which is inherent in the fact that there can be landed in our markets an article of diet that cannot be produced economically in this country, allowing for good wages and conditions, and a fair return on capital. There is another aspect of the problem. We have got a countryside that is waning. Our manufacturing power is on the decrease rather than on the increase, because other countries are developing the same scientific activities as we have in this country. Therefore the Minister of Agriculture would do great good to the agricultural problem if he got a Departmental Committee immediately to inquire how we can develop the countryside by giving the arable farmers an opportunity to produce, and by giving also the agricultural districts where milk, butter, and cheese are produced, an opportunity to find a market without materially increasing the cost of these articles; and, at the same time, giving free play to the Colonies in the developments of which we have heard so much from the opposite benches. It is weak to come to the House and say we have not got power to deal with the railway freights that the Amendment has brought into relief. If railway freights are excessively high and are preventing the farmer from finding a market and putting obstacles in the way of ready access to commodities, surely the Minister of Agriculture should come to the House and secure the powers which will enable him to deal with the freight committees.

The Amendment brings us up against a real problem in regard to which the Minister has confessed he has no power. Then he should seek power. I come from the county of Somerset, where we are more concerned with milk, eggs, cheese and butter. I have seen a ring formed in the market, which decided how much per dozen the eggs should reach before a dozen even had been placed on the market. They have decided how many beasts should be brought, and, within a very narrow margin, how much per stone they would give that day to the farmer. There is within the farming organisations sufficient brain to control this ability to fix prices and to put before the consumer an article at a price fair to both parties, thus doing away with the power of fleecing that now obtains among the middlemen. There have been practical suggestions put forward. The experience of the War showed that the grading of beasts and the selling by weight brought to the producer a more handsome return and gave the public the right and opportunity of checking the profiteering of the middlemen. It is not outside the power of organisation to bring the producer and consumer closer together to their mutual benefit.

We ought not to come to the House and ask the Minister of Agriculture to do what the farmers and consumers could do themselves. Coming from a constituency that is half rural and half industrial, I am more anxious with regard to the rural side than I am as to the urban side. As far as homes, wages, the repopulation and the redevelopment of rural England are concerned, it needs a greater vision than has hitherto been shown to make our old country what it should be. We want the vision and the will to act in accordance with it. After all, here is the agency, for in this House we come into touch with the industrial and urban representatives, and I have never found hostility among them, though I have found apathy, want of vision, want of understanding. If we realise the virile power of the countryside boy, girl, man and woman, and their contributions to the well-being of this country, we should do all we could during the next Session with regard to housing and other matters, and should ask the Ministers to consult with the best experts in each Department in relation to the problem which have been enumerated here to-day.

I believe that the country wills and desires that agriculture shall have such a stimulus and that such a public opinion shall be formed as will enable our people to buy British stuff without any protection and without any interference whatever. They will gladly buy British bacon in preference to Danish bacon when it can compete with Danish bacon, because they have a scientific system of grading it and putting it on the market in such a way that it commands attention. That is a question of organisation and co-operation. It is not a dead philosophy. It is a philosophy which has got to come. We are importing 2,000,000,000 eggs every year, and many an unemployed man, if he had the access to a small holding of two or three acres, could, with a job for three days in a week, so develop that small holding for poultry farming on a scientific basis, with the aid of the education given under the county councils, as to become an asset to the nation and to the Empire, and contribute largely to the solution of this problem.

I think that the time has arrived in our discussions on agriculture when it ought to be impossible for any sincere arguments or criticisms on present conditions to be met by the easy retort, "You are trying to teach the farmer his business." That kind of easy method of getting rid of uncomfortable circumstances does all right for local dinners and functions, but agriculture is to-day in such a serious position that a frank interchange of opinion as to what we conceive to be the difficulties and the remedies is the best way of approaching the question. The first thing which I would suggest, with all due respect, is that hon. Gentlemen opposite have been responsible for what I call the depreciation of the readiness of the agricultural population to go in for a turn of real self-help. They have brought them up with a fixed belief in Protection and subsidy, which was really supplying them with a drug, with the inevitable result of all drugs of producing temporary optimism followed by reaction and depression.

I have been a Free Trader, and have been in the co-operative movement for many years. I would like to know what the hon. Member means.

This preaching of the doctrine of protection and subsidies does not get at what we want. What we want is that the farming population should change completely its attitude towards existing circumstances, and realise that it is impossible now or in future for this State to be prepared to produce a full supply of food for its requirements. Therefore, we are not prepared to give it protection, to produce a result that cannot be obtained. An examination of the agricultural figures shows that if we had the finest harvest of wheat which we ever had in this country, it would not suffice for our needs. In 1863 we had a harvest of 17,000,000 quarters of wheat, and the consumption of wheat in 1921 was 31,000,000 quarters. It is obvious that we should require something like double the amount of the finest harvest which we ever had, and there is no possibility open for the State to accept the charge of protecting this industry on the ground that it can supply the food which we require. We, then, must be prepared to see a change in the attitude of the farming population.

I have not attempted to make these few remarks without an adequate effort in my own constituency and elsewhere to get in touch with a large and growing type of farmer, young men who have gone through training and are only too anxious to face the prospect of a change in method. What one finds is that these men are ready to face the fact that there is no hope in State interference in the form of protection or subsidy, but they do expect that, where they are helping themselves, the State will come forward with reasonable aid. That is a different proposition from the granting of a subsidy. If we come to examine what we mean by self-help we can see the issue raised by the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. F. Gould) about the markets which exist in this country. As he says, there are about 42,000,000 mouths to be fed by the agricultural population who are at no great distance from this market. How is it that they cannot get their product on to that great market? Instead of the present system we want to see carried out the proposals which I was pleased to see outlined by the Minister of Agriculture, that agriculturists should have their own bacon factories and their own egg-collecting stations and a proper system of scientific breeding and management.

We hear constant references to the middleman. We will not eliminate the middleman or he will not abdicate. You have got to compete with him in what he is doing. He is supplying a service in distributing goods to one place or another. There is one thing which the National Farmers' Union might do, and thereby add to its long record of useful service. That is to try to pick up all over the country, men of outstanding ability in the distributing service in the country and pay them the adequate wage of a highly skilled specialist and put them at the service of certain of these co-operative groups of the farming population. That is the only way in which you can get over the difficulty. You cannot expect the middleman to pack up his bag and walk out. The agricultural population must compete with him if it is to go in for anything like an adequate system of production of such things as I have mentioned. It has often been said that we should compare the distributing proposition in this country with the same proposition in Denmark. I do not accept that entirely. You must allow for the considerable differences which exist. But no one will venture to suggest that the condition of Denmark half a century ago was in the least degree better than the present position of agriculture in England. It was infinitely worse. A large portion of the country had been torn away by Prussia. There was in the country little coal, not of any great value, and the windswept islands represented a country which held out little prospects of agricultural development. But the introduction of new methods and a readiness to change entirely their outlook led to the remarkable results which we see produced to-day. What was possible by a change of method elsewhere, ought, at least, to be possible by a similar change of method and outlook in this country.

There is the other example of Germany after the War, the very quick and miraculous development of agricultural farmers' societies. There was an increase in two years after the War of 10,000 small local societies in Germany. That was a remarkable achievement in the conditions which existed in Germany after the Armistice. It is quite common for a farmer in Denmark to belong to ten of these societies. That introduces another aspect of the question. A farmer is able to get by joint credit what it would be impossible for him to get when working on his own account. These considerations ought to be brought home to the agricultural community by all Members of the House. The condition of affairs here is comparable only with that described by More in "Utopia." When he saw the decadence of the countryside he suggested that in a few years the man and his dog would occupy the place that had held a happy and prosperous popu- lation. We must be ready to change our outlook entirely and adapt ourselves to new methods; we must be ready to go in for closer cultivation and for all the schemes of co-operation, with such reasonable aid as the State can afford. It is only in that direction that we can achieve anything like permanent remedies.

Reference has been made to the position and the pay of the agricultural labourer. That is a question which cannot be burked. An industry which cannot afford to pay a higher rate of wage than the 20s. to 25s. a week that is paid in many places is not one which the State can afford to allow to continue so, without making a determined effort to alter the conditions. No matter how clever the wives of the agricultural labourers may be in domestic juggling—they are clever—and even if they perform miraculous feats, it is impossible to believe that they can do more than scrape a bare existence out of such a wage. I ask all hon. Members to give these proposals their consideration, and outside this House to propagate the idea that the time has come for a change in our outlook on agriculture. There is no hope in Protection or subsidies. They will not provide anything like a permanent solution of the difficulty. We must change our methods. The market is waiting. If these proposals are put before the sane and sound farmer of to-day, he will be ready to consider them, because the situation is so desperate. I am certain that on those lines, and those lines alone, will we get anything like a stable settlement of the agricultural industry.

I have listened with very great interest and attention to the speech just delivered, but I am still not quite clear whether the hon. Member admitted that the Minister had put forward a series of excellent suggestions which the farmer would be well advised to adopt, or whether he himself or his party were putting forward suggestions which were to provide a cure for agriculture. It seems to me that up to now the agricultural community cannot place their finger upon a single new fact which has emerged, or a single new suggestion as to policy, which will enable the agricultural worker to get an increased wage, or the farmer, who is the pivot man, to get the increased profit out of which to pay an increased wage. I agree with the right hon. and gallant Member for Daventry (Captain Fitzroy) that the most amazing part of the Minister's statement, interesting though it was, was his remark that before the Debate ended he hoped—I took a note of his exact words—"it will be clearer to us what to do." When the members of a party change from the Opposition side to the Government side of the House they cannot advance the excuse that they have been in office only six, seven, or eight weeks, and so do not know what to do, because every party is always preparing a policy upon various matters of State interest against the time when it will have the power to put that policy into operation. I would like to make a comment on the speech of the last speaker and upon his words about self-help and the market that is here. I hope that those words indicate that not only he, but other Members of the Liberal party, are going to give us help in the further stages of the Merchandise Marks Bill.

Let me turn to some points in the speech of the Minister of Agriculture. I pass over his reference to the owning of land for pleasure, because he gave us only one detail of that rather old but familiar accusation, which is based purely on lines of class distinction, and his veiled reference to the fact that there was too much inclination to make social status out of the land. So far as I have been able to see any signs of that, the evidence is all the opposite way, and shows that those who could possibly be accused of having a social status in the land are as busy as they can be in getting rid of their land as soon as they can find purchasers. The Minister went on to say that he might be driven to control agriculture, and especially cultivation, I suppose by means of and through his Department. I would have liked some details as to who is going to exercise the control that the Ministry is to apply to the farming and agricultural community. It is very easy to criticise farmers and to tell them that they are not making the best use of their land. I know that the Socialist party make that a great point in agricultural constituencies. They always say that if cultivation were better the farmer could easily afford to pay a better wage than that which he is now paying. But, surely, if you are to control cultivation by means of a State Department, you can only do it, first, by enormously increasing the number of your inspectors, and, secondly, by flooding the land with inspectors. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] Then I hope my hon. Friend who says "No" will tell the House, when I have finished, how the State is going to exercise control over farms in any county he chooses to name other than by using inspectors.

What the farmer says is familiar to any agricultural Member in this House. He says, in effect, to any inspector who comes down, and who, in fact, did come down to visit him during the War period of control, "I have farmed this land for 10, 20 or 30 years, and I know all the local conditions as regards weather, marketing and soil, and my father knew them before me. Now, is it likely that I know more about this land, or that you, an inspector from the Ministry of Agriculture, can teach me anything about it?" I believe it is perfectly true that a very large number of inspectors have learnt their knowledge of agriculture for more from technical institutions and from reading books than from actual, practical farming, and it is perfectly obvious that the man who spends his life upon the land is the last person to listen to advice of that sort, and take it, when he has got against that his own knowledge and his daily experience of the conditions of the land which he is farming.

10.0 P.M.

Therefore, when the Minister talked vaguely about a possible control of the State, ia was in keeping with those general terms that the Socialist party so often use when they are forecasting the day in which they will deal with any other problems of State. The Minister went on to say that we must not exaggerate the depression that at present exists in agriculture, and he intimated that there was a danger that farmers and others were inclined to over-exaggerate the hardness of the times. I know he will agree with me that there is one thing you cannot exaggerate and that is the certain fact that 90 per cent. or more of the agricultural workers are, at least, suffering under a depression measured in the shape of their wages that you cannot exaggerate. I would like to tell the House how this agricultural problem presents itself to me. It is measured first by the depression in the agricultural workers' wages. In fact, during the last two or three days certain branches of the Agricultural Workers' Union have actually written asking me, in a veiled sarcasm, whether I can suggest methods by which their members can live on 25s., 24s. or 23s. a week, and I really do not blame them for that sarcasm. You have that evidence of depression, and also the evidence of the farmer, who, after all, being the pivot man, has got to make a profit in order to pay a living wage. The tendency of the Socialist party, when they deal with this problem of agriculture, I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Yeovil (Major Davies), is to start at the wrong end, and say: "First let us see that the worker gets a living wage." Nobody is keener than we are to see that he does get a living wage, but it is no use starting off by saying: "First let us give him a living wage," because you have got to give it to him out of the pocket of the farmer, and we must start with the pivot man in the industry, the farmer, and say: "Let us see how we can help the farmer to pay a living wage." From my experience of farmers—and there are something like 153 villages in my constituency, so that I have some experience of the farming industry—there is no man in this country who is more eager and willing to pay a living wage than the average farmer. The Socialist party, if they are going to content themselves merely with establishing wage boards, and say that, either by central control or district boards, a certain minimum wage has got to be paid, are not facing the problem from the national point of view, but only from the secondary point of view as regards how that problem affects one branch of the agricultural industry, and that is the agricultural worker.

I want to say a word as to my disappointment with the Minister's speech. If the Minister had boldly got up and told the House that, owing to the special circumstances of the day, he could not present a hopeful policy for agriculture, I for one would not have blamed him, that is to say, if he had indicated that his remedy for our agricultural depression was nationalisation of the land, the elimination of the middle-man, the control of imports, and that the State should set up a chartered, disinterested monopoly for the purchase, importation, and storage of our staple foodstuffs, if he had said that, owing to the fact that his party had not got a majority, they could not hope to bring in nationalisation which was the one cure, then, indeed, I should have said, "Well that is the best in the circumstances he can produce." But, I submit, he had neither the courage to admit to the House that to-day, when in office, he stands by the policy upon which he and his party succeeded at the last Election by advocating nationalisation, Socialism, State enterprise, and State control; nor did he say, which was obviously the fact, that the policy which he did present was very short of producing anything near to curing our agricultural ills. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how much he agrees with the agricultural policy which has been laid down, printed and circulated, by the Independent Labour party. Does he agree that the key to control is that the State should set up "a chartered, disinterested monopoly for the purchase, importation, and storage of our staple foodstuffs," and does he say that the State must have the sole right to import wheat, flour, and meat?

Let me ask him another question. The Independent Labour party, who, I believe, more or less control the policy of the party who occupy the Government Benches, believe in nationalisation. Under that scheme, what is going to happen to the farmer? I have attended some meetings, in committee rooms upstairs, of those who are trying to promote the nationalisation of land. I should be very interested to learn if the Socialist Minister of Agriculture could tell the House in what order are applications for land to be received by the State when the State owns the whole of the land? How does he propose that nationalisation is going to ameliorate the present distress? I realise that if I were to continue that line of argument it would necessarily involve fresh legislation, and that I should be out of order, but what I do say is this. Whereas the Minister of Agriculture and his party, in this as in other matters, have, when they were in Opposition, ridiculed every suggestion the Conservative party made when in office, and taunted us with the fact that we had no proper policy of remedies for agricultural depression, what do we find when they themselves are in office? They produce not one new remedy and are merely content to keep up to date the policy advocated by the Conservative Minister before them.

For some reason or other we do not, when discussing such issues as these, realise that this country, because of the mess that has been made economically throughout the world, is gradually becoming the fifth wheel of the coach, and that consequently we must develop all the resources we have at home. It is more difficult to-day to transmute coal into food than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, and it will become increasingly difficult, unless we approximate our methods to a country like America. The whole economic position of this country is becoming so difficult that all resources should be developed at home to the very highest degree. When we come to the question of farming there are people who say that you should put on tariffs. I understand there is a Bill coming forward which an hon. Gentleman opposite said would enable us, by the marking of eggs, to solve the agricultural problem.

I believe an hon. Member opposite; I do not know the constituency he represents. The remedy proposed is tariffs on imported food. I want you to try to understand that in Ontario a thousand per cent. tariff would not benefit the farmers there. In Ontario, although the first fertility of the soil is exhausted, and they have to depend on fertilisation, the farmers who are in the same position practically as the English farmers, so far as land and resources are concerned, can pay very much higher wages, although they have to take less for their produce, because it is so much further from their markets.

He uses various fertilisers and imported manure. The fact is that the Ontario farmer is in the same position practically as the English farmer, with one or two differences. The Canadian farmer works himself.

There is a fundamental difference between the way the Canadian farmer works and the way the English farmer works. I know something about it because I was born and brought up on a Canadian farm.

I know about the English farmer. The first thing he does is to economise at the expense of the agricultural labourer, paying him £1 and 25s. a week, and some of us here pay as much as that for one dinner. It is not a question of money; it is a question of a bad land system. If you did make profits here on the land the farmer would have to hand it over to the landlord. The Ontario farmer discovered years ago that it was economical, instead of each farm having its own arrangements for making cheese and butter, to go in for co-operation, so that Canadian cheese now is handled on a very small margin, and the farmers, by combining and working together, get that benefit. The grain growers in Western Canada have done the same thing, with the result that the margins of profit for the middlemen, although not eliminated, are very much smaller. I have been amused to see the farming arrangements here. The first thing the English farmer does is to take it out of the agricultural labourer. The agricultural labourer is suffering now, and the farmers are not suffering in the same way. The farmers are getting what they want to eat, and are able to keep the home fires burning. They are not living on £1 and 25s. a week, and the labourer works as hard as and harder than the farmer. There are good farmers who are paying more. For instance, they are paying considerably more in Scotland, and no person would suggest that the soil of Scotland is better than the soil of England.

It may be in parts. Is it the soil of Scotland that makes the difference? It is peculiar that certain parts of the country can pay more. Is Lancashire poorer agriculturally than Hampshire?

Then it is a question of soil. [HON. MEMBERS: "And markets."] Is London not a market? Is Scotland not further away from that market? The point I am endeavouring to make is that in certain parts of this country farmers are able to pay something approximating to a living wage to the agricultural labourer, and in certain parts they are not.

In farming, that is practically so. There is a difference in the West where there is a shorter season, and in the West the labourers migrate and do lumbering work in the winter, and higher wages are paid there because it is seasonal work, just as higher wages are paid here during the harvest season. I may be right or wrong, and I hope hon. Members will not be angry with me if I happen to be wrong. I merely express my opinion. We all wish for a solution of this problem. My contention is that there is a lot of particularly bad farming in this country, and if you wish to see the bad farming you should not look at the fields alongside the road. You should get into the fields which are far from the roads. The worst farming is to be found furthest from the road. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I may have been unfortunate, but that was what I found when I looked into the matter for myself. You will find one farmer neglecting his ditches, and growing thistles, and when the wind blows it scatters the thistledown on to the land of the clean farmer. You will see them bringing in hay in a cart which weighs three times as much as the quantity of hay it is capable of carrying. There is bad farming, but there is this difference, that some farmers are able to make a fairly decent thing out of it and others are not. All farmers "grouse," whether here or in Canada. They always do, but obviously some do very much better than others. I believe the difference between the wages of the agricultural labourer in Canada and the wages of the agricultural labourer here is largely due to the co-operative efforts of the Canadian farmer. If in this country farmers could do what was done in Denmark, if they would develop the co-operative instinct and learn how to market their products without having so many middlemen; in other words, if they would think of a solution in terms of working together and getting as much assistance as they could from the State—which does not mean either subsidies or protection—then perhaps the countryside would assume its former importance and agriculture in this country would be made something more than the Cinderella of industries.

I do not propose to follow in the wide field taken on by the hon. Member who has just sat down, nor do I propose to discuss the subject of farming in Ontario, for the simple reason that I know nothing about it. From what the hon. Member said about the British farmer, I gather he does not know much more about the British farmer than I know about the Ontario farmer. To say that British farmers are "pinching" the wages of the agricultural labourer, and that they could pay far more than they are paying, is, to my mind, an unjustifiable statement, and will not be upheld by any hon. Member acquainted with farmers in this country, big and small. I resent particularly the insinuation made repeatedly lately that the agricultural labourer has been sweated. As far as I understand the expression "sweated labour," it means labour that is employed at a wage that is below that which is right and justifiable and at a lower standard than should be paid if the employer had honest ideas about a proper reward for an honest day's work. The hon. Member asked how it was that in Scotland they are paying in some cases double the wages they pay in England. If he will give me the pleasure of letting me take him to some property that I have in East Lothian, I will show him some soil there that is ten times as good as any soil he will find in this country, and then he will see how we are able to pay better wages there than in this country.

If this Debate has shown anything, I think it has shown that this problem of agriculture is one of such immense proportions that it is difficult to visualise it in one's brain. It is a problem that varies, not only in districts, but in the different branches of farming, and I regret very much that the one branch that is in need of more assistance than any other has hardly been spoken of at all this evening by hon. Members opposite. I refer to the arable farming on the poorer and lighter soils in the eastern counties of this country. In these districts wages are hopelessly low, the men are living under conditions which everyone of us would like to see cease at the earliest possible moment, and if things are allowed to continue as they are going on now, not only will a large area of land now under the plough be laid down to grass, but farmers will be going into the Bankruptcy Court, and men will in both cases be thrown out of employment.

In a speech which the Prime Minister made not long ago in this House—and the Minister of Agriculture has already quoted this passage—he said that what agriculture needed was a stimulus to enable it to fight its own battle. I quite agree, but what is the stimulus which the Government are offering to the farmer in this country? It is a no greater stimulus than he can obtain from any banker throughout the country, and besides this offer of credit facilities and loans and so on, the other stimulus they provide the industry is Wages Boards. If the Government can prove to me that the setting up of Wages Boards is going to solve this problem, I am with them every time, but I, in my ignorance, would have thought that it would have been a far better plan to put this industry in a more solvent condition, to remedy its economic condition, before starting at what might be called the tail of the beast. I believe, myself, that a prosperous state of agriculture is as necessary to this country as an efficient defence, and for this reason, that the physique of this country depends upon a flourishing state of agriculture. The men who form the ranks of the Army, who man the ships of the Navy, and who look after the Air Force owe their physique, if not directly, certainly indirectly, to their forefathers or their fathers, who were born and bred on the land, and if we are going to get large numbers of men leaving the land and going into the towns, the physique of this country, which is bad enough, God knows, already, is bound to suffer.

I remember the Prime Minister, in the Debate on the Address, making a statement in which he said that the very first essential of a good agricultural programme is to get the farming of the country united in a national policy which will include the well-being of agriculture Knowing that there was likely to be some statement on Government policy during the course of this Debate, I waited anxiously to see how, in the words of the Minister of Agriculture, that principle was going to be carried out. To my disappointment I can find no connection whatsoever. I see nothing of national policy in any of the proposals that have been put to us this evening. Really a statement of this kind should come from the Prime Minister himself, and it seems to be a most vital thing, for if there were an agricultural programme put before the electors of this country that was embodied in the national policy, surely it was one that was put before them by my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister. It was bound up in the national policy, and was part and parcel of it; yet here we have the present Prime Minister coming down to the House of Commons a week or two after, and expressing the very principle that was embodied in our speeches during the Election. This was really what he and the hon. Gentlemen behind him did their utmost in the constituencies of this country to get carried out.

We were accused of bribing the electors. Not only the Labour party but the Liberal party calmly got up on to their platforms and told the people of this country that we were doing nothing more than to bribe the agricultural electors. Yet a week or two afterwards the present Prime Minister comes down to the House and advocates a principle which was embodied in the programme which we put before the country at that date. Really I am surprised this evening that we have not had a word from, the Minister of Agriculture, because in the same speech the Prime Minister went on to say what was his agricultural policy, and that before hon. Members had been one-tenth of the time in office that has been enjoyed by hon. Members opposite, they would know what it was. I do not want to split hairs, but, according to my arithmetic, the Government have now been in two-tenths, and as yet no national policy in regard to agriculture has been put forward, so presumably we are entitled to believe that they have none. There is one more point I want to put to the Minister of Agri- culture. It has been mentioned by several speakers: that is the question of sugar beet. In my constituency the farmers are beginning to realise the importance of this industry. I believe in time, given encouragement and help in that part of the country, sugar beet will be grown in very large quantities, because they are situated close to the sugar factory at Cantley. I think it is generally admitted that it would be a disastrous thing if at the moment we were to do anything, nationally or internationally, that would jeopardise the interest of this industry. We want it to flourish, because in that direction we have to look for a prosperous agriculture, more than along the lines we are moving upon at the moment. We believe that in this direction there is a great future for arable farming in this country.

I would urge that representation should be made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, if it is his intention in the coming Budget to reduce the duty on sugar in any way at all, that he will take steps at the same time to see that the interests of the sugar beet industry are not jeopardised by such act. Obviously, if you are going to reduce the Sugar Duty, the home sugar industry is bound to suffer. I do not suggest that the price of sugar should be kept up in order to foster and enable this industry to get along, but if the tax on sugar is to be reduced, I ask that every consideration be given to this industry, and I think we should have an assurance from the Government that it will be made clear to those interested in this industry that whatever is done with the Sugar Duty, nothing will be done to impede the swift improvement and encouragement of the sugar beet industry throughout all those counties in the country where sugar beet can be suitably grown.

I desire to make one or two suggestions and offer a few observations on some of the arguments which have been brought forward from the other side of the House. I do not know that there is any advantage in mutual recriminations, but the hon. and gallant Member the Member for Buckingham (Captain Bowyer) has challenged the parties above and below the Gangway as to what they have done for agriculture. Had it not been for the failure of the party opposite during the last five years, when they were in a majority in the country, to produce an adequate agricultural policy, we should not have been in the position we are now. I desire to call attention to the Corn Production Act, which upset everybody. The party to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman belongs were responsible for bringing in that Measure. The fact that the Corn Production Act was brought in and repealed within a few months did more to upset the agricultural industry than anything that has happened within my experience. Then followed a great slump in the price of cattle, which made a very great difference to the position of the farmer. I think that argument answers the case brought forward by the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) when he was replying to an interjection with regard to co-operative societies. How was it the farmers lost so much money for a couple of years? It was owing to the Corn Production Act being brought in and the slump in the price of cattle which followed.

If you ask me whether the co-operative societies are going to lose on their farming operations during the present year, my answer would be that they are going to make a success of their farming this year. The years referred to by the Noble Lord were years when special losses occurred to all farmers, and that is why the co-operative societies did not do so well in those particular years. I was delighted to hear what the Minister had to say with regard to the signs of increased prosperity among farmers, and the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham, when he was finding fault with the Minister for making that statement, did not at all deal with the actual figures which the Minister brought forward showing that the prices of various kinds of agricultural produce had substantially advanced, as we all know to b\e the case.

Perhaps I may be permitted to quote to the House the opinion that was given to me by an ex-president of the Farmers' Union within the last five weeks. He said to me, in conversation on the state of agriculture, that things were not nearly so bad among the majority of the farmers in this country as they are made out to be, though he did not deny that on the light lands of the eastern counties, and some of the southern counties as well, things were very difficult. We agree that they are difficult, but we have to look at the matter in the main, and, apart from foot-and-mouth disease, I doubt very much whether it can be said that farmers are failing to make a living. When you come to consider that, supposing a farmer to be employing 10 men on his farm and paying a wage of 27s. a week to the labourers, and that the difference between that and 10 men at 30s. a week is 30s. a week, or £78 a year, can any hon. Member opposite say that the difference between success and failure on the part of the farmer depends on whether he pays an extra £78 a year in wages? I do not see how that can be advanced, and I can tell hon. Members opposite that during the last fortnight I have received a large number of requests from various agricultural labourers' associations in the division which I represent begging me to do the best I can to forward the matter of the establishment of wages boards in the country.

These men know what is the position of the farmers for whom they work. They are determined, if possible, that they shall have their 30s. a week at least as a minimum, and, of course, the cowmen, shepherds, and other more important men, will have their wages regulated accordingly. I am sure all Members of this House will agree that 30s. a week is a minimum below which the labourer's wage ought not to go. I desire to ask the Minister whether he will consider one insupportably heavy burden which rests upon the farmer, and of which he ought to be relieved. I believe it would make a very substantial difference with respect to the payment of wages to the agricultural labourers. I refer to the iniquitous imposition that has followed the 1920 Tithes Act. I could give a case in which the difference that that Act has made has very severely prejudiced the position of the farmer as regards his ability to pay wages to the labourer, and, if I should be in order, I should like to give that case.

Is not that a case under the Statute? The Minister cannot deal with that, unless the law be altered, and we cannot discuss matters to-night which require an alteration of the law.

I will pass to another point. I think I have directed the Minister's attention as far as is necessary to that particular point, and I hope he will consider it. I wish to say a word or two about another development which I think would have a great deal of effect in remedying the present position with respect to one portion of the Amendment which is now before the House. That is:

In the interim about 3,000 of these ex-service men who had had their applications for small holdings approved by the Ministry had given up. I do not know what the causes were. I think one cause would be the excessive rents that these smallholders had been compelled to pay owing to the conditions under which the land was bought during the War. Owing to the Corn Production Act the price of land went up very much, a large number of landowners sold large parcels of land, the county councils bought it at a very high price, the consequence being that the average cost of the land per acre to these ex-service smallholders, who really deserved well of the community—if anyone ought to be well treated they are the class who ought to have the best possible treatment—was 66s. on an average. I know that since that time the Minister reduced the charge by 21 per cent., bringing it down to 53s. an acre, but prior to the War the rent for the land for these smallholders was only 38s. per acre, so that to-day they are paying 15s. per acre more than the average price paid before the War. I wish to make a very strong appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government should, in their administration of the Land Settlement Act, do all they possibly can to provide for these ex-service men and others who desire to have small holdings. I feel sure from my experience that if those smallholders could have an opportunity of getting the land at a comparatively small rent, there would be any number of them who would come forward, and it would not be very long before the tale we now hear about the small number of men working on the land would be amended, and we should have, I hope, a gradually increasing solid peasant proprietry, not owning the land, but renting it, all over the country, and I should like to encourage the Minister to look forward to the time when he should not have barely 30,000 smallholders, but 300,000, and if we had anything like this on these small holdings, averaging as they do 14 or 15 acres each with a couple of men working on them, it would go a very long way indeed in solving the problem of finding work for the men we want to see working on the land. Upon the two lines which I have mentioned, there is something that can be done by the Ministry which would tend to give an effective relief to the present position.

I am very glad that several hon. Members have aired the case of the sugar-beet industry. The Kelham Factory is in my constituency. That factory for the last seven or eight months has been the greatest been to my constituents. Eighteen months ago, the factory was closed down, but a Conservative Government came along and, with its usual wisdom, reduced the tax on home-grown sugar, and the result is, that to-day in that factory we are employing 600 men. That does not take into account the extra men who are employed on the farms round about. We have now 6,000 to 7,000 acres of land under beet. If the sugar-beet industry is properly fostered, it will be a great success in this country. The growing of sugar-beet has several great virtues, the greatest of which is, that it is an extraordinarily good cleaning crop, and when the beet has been pulped, it makes very good fattening food for cattle.

The industry will give employment for a great many men in other ways. The beet requires a great deal of carting and transport. It will also give work to people in the coal industry, because the sugar-beet factory has to have a great quantity of coal to run the machinery. In a few years to come, it will give work to people in the engineering industry. The machinery at the present time is not made in this country; I believe it is made in France, but when the people who are concerned in the running of these factories know more about their business, undoubtedly, this machinery will be made in this country. One hon. Member said that it would take 20 years before this country would be able to run the sugar-

beet industry on its own accord. I do not think it will take as long as that. At the present moment all the people running the machinery, and the works manager, are Dutchmen. [ Interruption. ] I am afraid, unfortunately, there are even two Germans there. But they hope in a year or two to return these Dutchmen to their country, and the factory will then be entirely run by British workmen and by British managers. The utterance I should have liked to have heard from the Minister of Agriculture was this: "During our time in office we will guarantee the sugar beet industry of this country." Not only would he have ensured the prosperity of an industry which will be of the greatest use to this country, but he would in a great way have solved the employment question in the agricultural parts of this country to-day.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 160; Noes, 79.

Division No. 46.]

AYES.

[10.54 p.m.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Lessing, E.

Ammon, Charles George

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Lindley, F. W.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Loverseed, J. F.

Baker, W. J.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Lowth, T.

Banton, G.

Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

Lunn, William

Barclay, R. Noton

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

McCrae, Sir George

Barnes, A.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

M'Entee, V. L.

Batey, Joseph

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Macfadyen, E.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Maden, H.

Black, J. W.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Bondfield, Margaret

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

March, S.

Bonwick, A.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Marley, James

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Haycock, A. W.

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Hayday, Arthur

Maxton, James

Buchanan, G.

Hayes, John Henry

Montague, Frederick

Buckle, J.

Hemmerde, E. G.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Morse, W. E.

Cape, Thomas

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Charleton, H. C.

Hobhouse, A. L.

Muir, John W.

Church, Major A. G.

Hodges, Frank

Murray, Robert

Clarke, A.

Hoffman, P. C.

Naylor, T. E.

Cluse, W. S.

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Nixon, H.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hudson, J. H.

O'Grady, Captain James

Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

Isaacs, G. A.

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Costello, L. W. J.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Paling, W.

Cove, W. G.

Jewson, Dorothea

Phillipps, Vivian

Crittall, V. G.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Potts, John S.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Purcell, A. A.

Duckworth, John

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Raynes, W. R.

Dukes, C.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kennedy, T.

Ritson, J.

Egan, W. H.

Kirkwood, D.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Finney, V. H.

Lansbury, George

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

Laverack, F. J.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Foot, Isaac

Law, A.

Romeril, H. G.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Royce, William Stapleton

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Lawson, John James

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Gillett, George M.

Leach, W.

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Gosling, Harry

Lee, F.

Scurr, John

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Stranger, Innes Harold

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Sherwood, George Henry

Sullivan, J.

Welsh, J. C.

Shinwell, Emanuel

Sunlight, J.

Westwood, J.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Tattersall, J. L.

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington)

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Wignall, James

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Tinker, John Joseph

Windsor, Walter

Simpson, J. Hope

Tout, W. J.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Viant, S. P.

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Snell, Harry

Wallhead, Richard C.

Spence, R.

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Warne, G. H.

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Parkinson.

Stamford, T. W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Stephen, Campbell

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

NOES.

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Gretton, Colonel John

Savery, S. S.

Betterton, Henry B.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Shepperson, E. W.

Blundell, F. N.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Brass, Captain W.

Harland, A.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Hartington, Marquess of

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Jephcott, A. R.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Waddington, R.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Lamb, J. Q.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Conway, Sir W. Martin

McLean, Major A.

Wells, S. R.

Cope, Major William

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Dalkeith, Earl of

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wolmer, Viscount

Dawson, Sir Philip

Perring, William George

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Eden, Captain Anthony

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Ednam, Viscount

Rentoul, G. S.

Elveden, Viscount

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Ropner, Major L.

Mr. Wardlaw-Milne and Sir Henry

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Cautley.

Gates, Percy

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

Supply accordingly considered in Committee.

[Mr. ENTWISTLE in the Chair.]

Class I

Revenue Buildings

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £796,970, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices abroad." [NOTE: £393,000 has been voted on account. ]

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £10,000.

11 P.M.

If I do not comment at any length on the details of this Vote, it is not that the details do not present some curious and interesting features to any inquirer, but because I desire for a moment or two to direct the attention of the Committee to one aspect of financial policy which is disclosed in this Vote among other votes. The first thing to which I refer will be found on pages 34 and 35. Hon. Members will find in the three Votes we are taking under this particular heading, the vote for Customs and Excise buildings, for Inland Revenue buildings and for Post Office buildings, a recurring item "Maintenance and Repairs." One of the great difficulties which the Committee labours under in arriving at any conclusion with regard to these items, springs from the fact that, owing to a quaint custom in our national accounts, we have no national capital account. It is, therefore, impossible to calculate what proportion these charges for maintenance and repairs bear to the main capital figure at stake. There appears to be a very curious disproportion in regard to the charges for maintenance and repairs between the Customs and Excise, the Post Office and the Inland Revenue. I do not know exactly how the figures should be related, but if they are related to the figures for rent, I find that in the case of the Revenue Vote maintenance and repairs are £46,000 and rents are £142,000, a relation of 35 per cent.; in the Post Office maintenance and repairs are £219,000 and rents £391,000, a relation of 52 per cent.; and in the Customs and Excise maintenance and repairs are £25,000 and rents £38,000, or a relation of 66 per cent. I only call attention to it in passing as being rather curious, and as deserving, I think, at some future time, closer examination.

I want to ask those Members who are furnished with the Paper we are discussing, to look at page 41 and the following pages of the Vote—New Works, Alterations and Additions: Works in Progress. First, I would make one further passing observation, and that is that I hope on this Vote the Postmaster-General will have something to tell us about the first item which figures among the new works, because it is a very large and a very important item, namely, the new sorting office at Mount Pleasant, £137,000, of which we are asked to vote in this year £33,000. I imagine that this particular building is the building upon which work was suspended for a number of years, and which presents, if I remember aright, something more like the appearance of a skating-rink than anything else. We are asked to vote £33,000 for the erection of a superstructure. Superstructure, I believe, is an architectural euphemism. In point of fact, all that there is on this site is the foundation and the basement floor, and what we are to erect now is the remainder of the building. The Postmaster-General will, perhaps, think it fitting and right that he should give a word of explanation in regard to this particular item.

I pass to the main consideration to which I wish to invite the attention of the Committee. Hon. Members will see the constantly recurring expression "re-vote." For instance, the re-vote in the case of the Mount Pleasant Sorting Office is £13,000. The Committee will find all through these pages the expression "re-vote" recurs. I am not raising this question in any spirit of party controversy at all. If I were, I should point out that the Statute of Limitations in regard to a defence by the Government has expired. These are your Estimates, not ours. There is something to be said for that defence with regard to the Supplementary Estimates, but on the main Estimates of the year the Government must, and do, take responsibility for the presentation of those Estimates. Take the case of the Navy Estimates by way of illustration. The Government has already made great, grave, and, as we think, dangerous alterations in the Navy Estimates. They have already made great alterations in the Air Estimates, and the responsibility for the main Estimates for the year is, and always must be, a responsibility which attaches to the Government. I think when I have put my point, hon. Gentlemen in many quarters of the Committee will appreciate that there are some of us, at all events, who have all along taken a great interest in public accounts from the technical side, and the point I am to put to the Committee is one which I regard from that aspect. I am not speaking as a Member of any particular party but as a Member of the Supply Committee of the House of Commons.

These items are a whole series of re-votes. I had better explain, because there are some new Members, what a re-vote is. When Parliament, in Committee of Supply, appropriates under a particular vote a certain amount of money for the service of the vote, it frequently happens that the whole of that money is not expended in that year. When that occurs, if it is desired to continue a particular service in a new year. When time and circumstances did not allow it to be done in the previous year, it is necessary to have a re-vote. This estimate consists of a whole series of re-votes. I want to ask the Committee to appreciate, if they will, what happens when money is not spent on a particular service during a particular year. One of two things happens. Either the money is appropriated by the Department, although it is not spent under the particular heads for which it was originally debited, for the service of other heads in the same vote, or it is surrendered to the Exchequer. The first of these two events is known in technical language as the application of virement. It is allowing money voted in a particular votes and dedicated in that vote, although not dedicated by Parliament, to be transferred from one head of that vote to another. That is a very important power, and within limits a desirable power, but it is one which has been growing in its application by Departments in recent years, and the Committee on Public Accounts have on more than one occasion called attention to the growth of this practice as being attended with some dangers and deserving of some checks. In the last report which I have of the Committee on Public Accounts I find that in paragraph 7 attention is directed to this Vote. The Committee point out that with regard to Votes 6, 8—that is the present Vote—9 and 10, large savings which have been effected by the postponement or abandonment of new works, have been utilised to meet considerable expenditure for maintenance, furniture, fuel and light, and they go on to express apprehension at the growth of this practice. The Treasury replied to that in a Minute, and the Treasury Minute says, while they do not accept entirely the conclusions and observations of the Committee, £50,000; this year it is £37,350. The amount allowed in this respect last year is of importance in ascertaining how far £37,350 is a reasonable allowance for reduction this year. I have made totals of these pages 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 and 46.

I have added up the first two pages, and whereas I find that £50,000 is allowed for works that might not be carried out during the course of last year, no less a sum than £57,753 appears as re-votes on the first two pages. Frankly, I think that is all wrong, from the point of view, in the first place, of this House as the controlling authority, and, in the second place, of the taxpayer. It is wrong if the money is used for transference from one head to another, because it gives far too great a latitude to the Departments in the administration of the money provided for them by Parliament. It is wrong from the point of view of the taxpayer for this reason, that if a Department at the end of a year has a surplus, that is to say, an unexpended balance, that unexpended balance goes automatically into the maw of the Old Sinking Fund, to the reduction of debt. It is quite right that it should be so, otherwise you would have the very dangerous principle that an Executive might gradually accumulate funds and eventually become independent of the House of Commons, but while that is true, and while it is a sound principle, observe the effect to the taxpayer of overestimating your requirements during any particular year. I agree that to take the taxpayers by and large, it does not make any difference, because it is a good thing to reduce debt, but it means that from the taxpayers of this year you are raising an extra sum of money and that from the taxpayers of last year you raised more money than you need have raised.

I make so bold as to say that this is a big question of financial policy. It does not only apply to this year, but it is a practice which has been growing in the Departments. I have seen it. I see an old member of the Public Accounts Committee opposite, who has sat with me on that Committee, and for years we have been protesting against the gradual growth of this practice. This Vote is a particularly bad instance, and the next Vote, dealing with diplomatic and consular buildings, is even worse. I think it is time that somebody said a word with regard to this question. I may be asked what is the remedy, and I submit that the remedy is that the Departments ought much more closely to estimate their requirements, and cut much nearer the bone. The reason why they do not do that is because they are afraid of presenting Supplementary Estimates. I have heard hon. Members on both sides protesting more than once against the Government for introducing Supplementary Estimates, and saying it is bad budgeting. I do not agree. It is far from being the case that Supplementary Estimates are beloved either by the Departments or by the Government. Indeed, I have good reason to know—and hon. Members opposite, if they do not know now, will speedily find out—that the reverse is the case. For what happens? The assistant principal accounting officer goes, with a face of gloom, to the principal accounting officer, and says: "I am afraid we must have a Supplementary Estimate," and the principal accounting officer, equally steeped in gloom, goes to the Permanent Under Secretary, and says "There is no way out of it; we must have a Supplementary Estimate." The Permanent Under Secretary, in turn, goes, as I well know, to the Parliamentary Secretary, who says a great many things that are not in the Bible, because he knows quite well that when the time comes, his chief will probably have a pressing Cabinet appointment, and the Parliamentary Secretary will be left to defend the Supplementary Estimate in the House of Commons. I assure the Committee that there is a great feeling in this matter, and that the language of the Parliamentary Secretary, horrible though it may be, is as a pale old rose before that of the Chief Whip when somebody from the Department comes along and says that they must have a Supplementary Estimate.

We cannot have a general discussion on the practice of the. Treasury. The hon. Member must restrict himself in his comments to the things that he suggests are over-estimated on the particular items on this Vote.

But are we not discussing at present the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise Bill which comes under the Treasury? Is not the Treasury represented on the Front Bench? Are we not discussing various of these items.

Following your ruling would it not very much facilitate the discussion if we had made it general instead of having to take and vote separately? There are a great many items if they are taken separately. If your ruling is enforced each item would have to be taken separately: would not that prolong the Debate?

The hon. Member misunderstood my ruling. I am not encouraging hon. Members to deal with separate items. But we cannot have a general discussion on Treasury administration. Argument must be limited and based upon the over-estimate. We cannot have a general discussion on every separate item of supplementary estimate.

May I suggest that we are discussing perhaps the most important part of our business—that is the Estimates presented to Parliament.

I submit to you that it is in Order to discuss very largely the over-estimating by the Departments year after year, and what are the theories upon which the Departments act when these things are presented to the House.

The Estimates to which the hon. Gentleman is referring are for the past year. We have here the Estimates for the present year. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to ask whether there is an over-estimate, but we cannot have a general discussion on the administration of the Treasury.

I am sorry if I have digressed, and I apologise to the Committee for being so long. But it is rather a difficult point. I agree with the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway—this is the most important thing to which a Committee of the House of Commons can direct its attention. What I was trying to do by way of comment on the figures which appear in this particular Vote for last year was to draw the conclusion, drawn probably by the Members of the Committee on Public Accounts, that an allowance of £37,350 for works that are not likely to be undertaken during the coming year is a gross overestimate, and that the total of the Vote ought to be reduced. The point is that year after year, especially in this Department—twice in 1921–22—the Committee on Public Accounts have had cases of gross over-estimate, and it has not been peculiar to those two years. If you look over a series of years you will see that the same thing has constantly occurred. I admit the difficulties—labour troubles, the conclusion of contracts and so on, but it is quite clear that there has been constantly through the years an overestimate, a great over-estimate in the Votes of this Department—and I regret to say of other Departments. It is for that reason that I have called attention to this particular Vote to-night with all the facts which I have enumerated on these six or seven pages. I shall end by moving the reduction of £10,000.

I agree with the criticisms which have been made by the hon. Baronet who has just sat down with regard to over-estimating on the Works Vote which has gone on for a good many years. This department has been a conspicuous offender in this respect. Nothing is worse for the public service than this constant over-estimating. It will be noticed by those who have taken the trouble to look at this Vote that the Post Office and the other Departments when they had made a complete list of the works which they propose to undertake they make a lump sum deduction for works which may not for unforeseen causes be carried out. They have made a deduction this year of about 10 per cent. and this has never been sufficient. This Department is always hopeful of getting through more work than it is able to do during the year. I think that after they have made out their detailed list of works they should make a larger deduction than 10 per cent. It is quite time that this kind of thing came to an end. I wish to congratulate the Government on the fact that they have presented the Works Vote at an earlier day in the Session because usually it has been left to the end of the Session and then it has been voted in a lump sum and at a time when the Estimates have to be put through in a few days. It is very important that we should deal with these Estimates early in the Session otherwise the Works Department cannot get on with their buildings. The authorities at the Post Office have often complained that they are unable to start their new buildings at the most convenient season of the year and I congratulate the Government upon the adoption of this new policy. Even now it is somewhat late but it will be June or July before they will be able to start their new works. I think this Department ought to find some means of presenting their Estimates on a list a little ahead so that the Post Office and other Departments could start their building work earlier in the year.

My hon. Friend who made this vigorous protest had done a real service in calling the attention of this Committee, and, I sincerely hope, of a much wider public outside, to the manner in which these accounts are presented. This is in no sense whatever an attack upon the present Government. The method is one which has been in force, and for which previous Government's were responsible. I only propose to deal with one point. Surely, it is utterly wrong to make up an Estimate, bring out a total figure, and then make an allowance by deduction because you do not anticipate that you will spend that total sum of money. In any well-conducted business organisation, surely the proper method is to make a close, pruned Estimate, making reasonable allowance for minor contingencies, and then, having estimated narrowly and closely, to make a contingency allowance at the end to cover what may be an additional expenditure on other items which it is not possible to forecast. That in these Estimates a total figure is brought out, and then an allowance made for a sum which is not going to be spent, seems to me to be a most extraordinary proceeding, and I suggest that the time has come, now that we have such a vigorous Front Government Bench, for them to set a good example by saying that they at any rate will alter this system. They had the opportunity of coming here to-night and saying, "We are putting before you a new and cleaner system of presenting the accounts," a system which would be much better understood by their friends behind them, because I am sure that many hon. Members of this House, who are fairly well accustomed to reading these accounts, have difficulty in understanding them when they are presented in this manner.

On a point of Order. Would not this discussion be perfectly in order on the day which is allotted to the Committee on Public Accounts, and is it not rather unsuitable to this occasion? Ought we not on this occasion to be discussing individual Votes, rather than a principle, which is usually dealt with on that annual occasion?

May I point out that the hon. Member is basing an argument upon items that actually appear in this Estimate, and drawing an inference from the recurrence of certain items on the Vote?

I have already ruled on the general question. I do not think the hon. Member was breaking my ruling. He was dealing with a deduction in this Estimate, which, I think, is in order, though he must not enlarge on it too much, and must only deal with it in connection with this particular Vote.

I had fully in mind your ruling, and am glad to know that you confirm that, so far, at any rate, I have kept within it. What I was endeavouring to do was to save the time of the Committee by dealing rather with the final figures brought out, instead of doing as I might quite well have done. It is quite simple, and strictly in accordance with rulings given in this House, if one is challenged, to take these figures one by one, and occupy—as I think, unnecessarily—a great amount of time. I was endeavouring to save time by simply drawing attention to the general principle, involving one figure at the end of this Estimate, and surely it is a little ungenerous, to put it no higher, that that should be called in question by so experienced a Parliamentarian as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. I content myself with merely calling attention to this point which I wish to put before the Committee. Can we not have this presented in a business-like form closely estimated with an addition to cover contingencies—you cannot estimate figures like these within a margin of 2 per cent. or 3 per cent., but put it as an addition to be used if necessary to cover contingencies, and do not have a Budget and then make an unnecessarily email allowance for the possibility of not using the full amount.

The speech of the hon. Baronet, the Member for South Croydon (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson) strikes me as being an excellent illustration of Parliamentary methods. As I understand it, the late Government estimated for certain services, and, because of their deliberate policy, that money was not spent. Having failed to spend that money, hon. Members are coming to the House expressing a desire not to waste the time of the House, and are directing criticisms ostensibly against our Front Bench which should properly be directed against themselves. I want to draw attention to two items. It is proposed to spend a large sum of money on building a sorting office at Mount Pleasant. The Paper states that £13,000 of that Vote is a re-vote. The conditions at Mount Pleasant have been disgraceful, so far as the staff employed in that building is concerned, and that despite every form of pressure that was brought to bear on the late Government, they declined to proceed with work that needed to be done urgently in the interests of the staff and for which there was an urgent call in the interests of the building trade itself. In these circumstances it is highly improper for hon. Members opposite to complain that the Department has been guilty of over-estimating. The position is that it was an accurate estimate, and if the Government had done its duty the money would have been expended during the year. Take the next item, for the South Norwood sorting office. The wall to which the Estimate refers has been in a state of serious dilapidation for the last three or four years. It has been shored up by heavy building timber, and I should say it has been a danger to persons using the building for many months. This, again, is an item on which money should have been expended at the earliest possible moment, and the fact that any of the money has not been expended is no reflection upon the Department that made the estimate, but is a reflection on the administration that is responsible for economy.

I am not in possession of the figures. As far as I can see, the figure is not stated. The thing the House has to face is not an attempt on the part of a Department to over-estimate their expenditure upon new buildings, but the refusal of past Governments to expend money upon necessary works.

I wish to express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for what I believe is an explanation that most of us very sincerely appreciate. I am glad to find that in the protest he made he was supported by a colleague of mine in the representation of Cornwall who has taken a very deep interest in this matter. It is not clear why this money has not been spent. Much complaint was made last year that the Government were not proceeding with work upon which men could have been employed. While the Government were urging private employers to proceed with work there were complaints from all over the country that the Government were not accelerating work. We want to know from the Government—of course, the blame does not rest upon this Government—why work has been held back which, manifestly, ought to have been done. Men were in many cases having to live upon the unemployment benefit, when they might have been kept employed at their own work. I will give an illustration with respect to the post office at Bodmin. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, I refer to this matter in the first place because we ought to speak on subjects about which we know most; generally, we prefer to speak on subjects about which we know least; and in the second place because Bodmin is the county town of a county which, being so far away from the capital city, is very often neglected. My colleague in the representation of Cornwall, the right hon. Member for Camborne (Mr. Leif Jones), will agree with me that the people there are expected to pay their taxes like the rest of the community but they are often forgotten when it comes to the spending of public money. In the capital town of Cornwall there is a post office which has been a disgrace to a large Department. The men and women have been compelled to work there under conditions which are almost intolerable, and they have pressed for an improvement. The improvement was sanctioned 12 months ago, and the money to have been spent last year was £4,000, but the work has been delayed and only £500 spent in carrying out the contract. If the Government would explain why that work has not been proceeded with, it might enable us to understand why work in other parts of the country has been held up and why the unemployed have been prevented from getting work during the last 12 months.

I want to call attention to three specific points. I do not blame the Government, because they are simply carrying on a practice which I condemned in the last Parliament. There are three separate items for furniture. Here we have Votes of nearly £70,000 for tables, chairs and furniture for new buildings. In the last Parliament I drew attention to the same point. Hon. Members who served with me in Government Departments during the War must have seen stacks of furniture thrown into Government offices. What has become of that furniture? Why is it necessary year after year to vote money for new furniture for these new buildings? The First Commissioner of Works must know what furniture there is in store. Large numbers of Government offices were closed, and furniture was removed. What has become of that furniture? We know that typewriters have been lost. What has happened in regard to this furniture? Is this merely an accounting item? I ask the first Commissioner of Works to draw up a paper for the use of the House—some list of the furniture which is taken out of offices that are shut up—so that some check could be kept. Have they an inventory? We know very well that furniture of this kind does not wear out in two or three years. I ask the First Commissioner of Works to give the Committee some information of how this money will be spent. Is it for new furniture or an accounting item of crediting money to another Department? I call attention to a new point on page 41. I was a member of the Estimates Committee in the last Parliament and we took a great deal of trouble to go into the question of the Threadneedle Street branch post office. I see an item of £53,500. We all went down with Sir Frederick Banbury to see this post office and we reported to this House that we did not think it was wise that this money should be expended. The House thought otherwise, and it was decided to rebuild. We were told that £80,100 would be spent on the work. Yet I see £53,500 is already asked for and against this item is a note to the effect that a further Vote will be required for 1924–25 of £30,000. Therefore before the building is completed there is an expenditure of £3,500 in excess of what we were told it would cost and it looks as though it will cost more still. We were also told that ultimately it would cost very much less because portions of the building would be ultimately let off to an insurance office. If a portion of the building is let off, why is not a sum on account of that rent credited to the account?

It is a matter of great regret to the Committee that there is no representative of the Treasury here this evening. The Post Office is a great revenue-producing organisation. It is also a large spending one. I cannot help thinking therefore that it would have been in the interests of better management of the Poet Office if we had the assistance of some representative of the Treasury in order to answer questions. Can the Postmaster-General at his own discretion embark on new works, or does he have to obtain Treasury sanction for some of the new buildings contemplated in these estimates?

There is another point to which I would like to draw attention. I know that it has been the custom to have these new works paid for out of revenue. In ordinary commercial undertakings when you have new buildings or plant the expenditure is generally paid out of capital and not out of revenue. I cannot but think that a saving would be achieved, and thereby we might have a reduced charge for postage, which would benefit the ordinary public, if the cost of some of these new works, for instance the long distance wireless station at Rugby, were paid for by capital expenditure which would be spread over several years, and not out of revenue. It is not recurring expenditure. I think that it would be a considerable assistance to revenue from the Post Office if some of these new works were put on to capital expenditure and not paid for out of revenue.

The hon. Member opposite was singularly unfortunate in the reference which he made to the late Government not having spent all the money for which it budgeted, because in regard to the South Norwood sorting office, and the item for building a front wall which occurs on page 41, the sum voted last year was £2,320, and the amount actually expended was £2,075, which is equal to total sum voted less £245. I am afraid that the hon. Member is not con- versant with these estimates or he would not have made that point.

I am referring to South Norwood. But my object in rising is to utter a gentle protest against the Government presenting this Estimate and not condescending to give a single word of explanation about it. That is not an unprecedented practice, but it is an unusual and a bad practice. I am certain that if the Conservative party had been in office it would not have dared to bring forward an estimate to the House of Commons without giving a full explanation as to how the money which they were demanding was to be expended. As the Government has not given us any such explanation I hope that they will give all necessary information when they come to reply. The first point on which I would like information is in regard to the item that occurs under all these three votes—that is unemployment relief works. I should very much like to know what the Government mean by putting down unemployment relief works under these headings? What do the unemployment relief works involve in the case of the Post Office? Do the Government mean that these are works which are really not required, and which are being undertaken only to relieve unemployment? If so, then I should have thought they would have come properly in the Estimates under the branch which deals with the whole question of relief works. On the other hand, if the money is being spent on works which are needed, it is new building work, not unemployment relief work, and should be included under one or the other Sub-heads of the Vote. Incidentally, I call the attention of the Committee to the interesting fact that the Socialist Government is apparently spending considerably less money on unemployment relief than the late Conservative Government spent. Whereas last year the Conservative Government spent £16,190 for unemployment relief works in connection with Customs and Excise buildings, this Government is spending only £1,030. In the Inland Revenue buildings we see a decrease from £9,000 to £3,380, and a decrease in regard to the Post Office from £15,000 to £9,300. I am well aware that experience has shown that this Government has no solution of unemployment beyond continuing the schemes of their predecessors. I had not realised, however, that the Government not only were confined to continuing our schemes, but were cutting them down and actually furnishing less work for unemployment than the Conservative Government provided. That is a new and significant fact. I notice the items, rents, insurance, and tithe rent charge. How much are the Government paying in tithe rent charge, and why do they not take advantage of the very favourable terms which at present prevail, and will prevail, until 1926 for the redemption of tithe rent charge so that this recurring expenditure can be removed? That is a point which every business undertaking would consider, and the Government should give the Committee information on the point.

In regard to furniture, I support very strongly what was said by the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel). This seems a perfectly ludicrous sum to be spent on furniture. It is a huge sum. All the time that some Departments have been buying new furniture, the Disposal and Liquidation Board, if I am not mistaken, has been selling furniture at the other end of the street. Although I have not got the figures before me, I would not mind betting the First Commissioner of Works that the Government was buying furniture at a higher price than that at which the Disposal Board was selling furniture. The Committee would like a little fresh information on that matter. I particularly ask the attention of the Committee to the item M, "Post Office and Telegraph Buildings, new works, alterations and additions." This is an item of £336,000. I quite agree, when you are dealing with an ordinary Government Department, such as the Customs and Excise or the Inland Revenue, capital expenditure of that sort is properly made out of income. That has not been the practice with foreign countries, particularly France, but I think the practice which has prevailed in this country is the best.

But when we come to a Department like the Post Office which is not an ordinary Government Department at all, but is a huge business concern run by the State, and I suppose the prototype and forerunner of what we are to have in the next decade under the aegis of a Socialist Government. When we come to a great business concern of that sort the matter wears an altogether different complexion. I wish to ask the First Commissioner of Works, if a charge for this expenditure on new works and new buildings is placed in the Post Office accounts in the way that an ordinary business firm would write off a certain amount for depreciation. This sum is being voted by the House in the Vote for the Office of Works and is, as it were, a free gift to the Post Office business. We will not be able to discover on the Post Office Vote whether the Post Office is being economically run as a business proposition unless we have before us all the costs of the Post Office to the State. Here is a very heavy cost of the Post Office to the State. Will that receive any recognition in the accounts of the Post Office when they come before the House?

As the Postmaster-General is here I also wish to raise some points as to detailed items under this head of Post Office buildings. I take the item "Basingstoke New Post Office (re-vote £4,000)." I hasten to assure the Committee that Basingstoke is not in the constituency which I represent. This work is necessitated because the Postmaster-General has removed the work and the staff from the very adequate and excellent post office at Winchfield which is in my constituency. Winchfield Post Office is about 20 yards from the railway station on the main line of the Southern Railway, London to Salisbury. A more convenient place for a post office could not be found. Until recently the mails were taken out at Winchfield and distributed in the neighbourhood and there were very few places in Hampshire where the postal facilities were so good as in the vicinity of Winchfield. Now the Government have transferred the whole of that to Basingstoke and are asking for £8,545 to build a new post office at Basingstoke which is perfectly unnecessary while leaving the post office at Winchfield—I will not say empty but only 25 per cent. used. Not only is there this heavy expenditure in regard to this new post office at Basingstoke, but, instead of using the railway to take their mails to London from Winchfield they have started a great service of motor lorries which must enormously add to the expenditure on the service, and there is very great dissatisfaction about it in the neighbourhood.

I come to another item on the list. I look down page 43, and I would like to ask the Postmaster-General why Farnborough does not appear in these Estimates. Farnborough is in my constituency, and I have had a correspondence with the Postmaster-General regarding this matter during the last few days. What the Post Office has done is to shut down one post office and instal another inferior post office. Therefore I presume that the expenditure for this work comes under the heading of "minor works," which is found on page 50. I wish to protest strongly against the action of the Postmaster-General in this respect. Farnborough is a rapidly-growing town. It has had for over thirty years a post office which was none too big for the convenience of the community. The population is rapidly growing. Within the last few years the population has been doubled by the establishment of a Royal Aircraft factory.

On a point of Order. Is it in order for the Noble Lord to discuss an item of expenditure which does not appear in the accounts under discussion?

My point is that I am asking the Postmaster-General why Farnborough does not appear on page 50. I do not know if the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Gray) has a copy of the Estimates, or, if he has, whether he has read them.

The Postmaster-General will reply in course of time, but he has the courtesy to wait till I finish the point I am putting to him. I desire to protest very strongly against the action of the Postmaster-General in shutting down the post office at Farnborough and fobbing us off with a post office in a small shop in the neighbourhood. The right hon. Gentleman has received protests from the Farnborough Urban District Council, from the Farnborough Chamber of Commerce, and from a public meeting held in Farnborough, at which all parties, classes, opinions and denominations were present. The right hon. Gentleman has received a record petition, signed by all the inhabitants of Farnborough, and he has absolutely refused to pay any atten- tion to these representations. When I wrote to him only a week or so ago, asking him whether he would receive a deputation on this question, the right hon Gentleman wrote back refusing to receive a deputation.

The hon. Member is now going into questions which would only be in order on the Post Office Vote. He cannot go on asking why there is not a building in every place.

I am very much obliged to you for your ruling. I understood from your previous ruling that we were to discuss these things item by item, and not on general principles.

That is what I hope the Postmaster-General will tell us, but I do not want to press the point. If you think the matter should be brought up again on the Post Office Vote, I will certainly do so. But I shall be very grateful if the Postmaster-General will tell us whether, before we give him this Vote, Farnborough post office is included in the heading I have read. I should then know, at any rate, where the evil deed had been done. If I may, with all respect, and in a friendly spirit, tender the Government a little piece of advice, I think it would greatly facilitate discussion, and not a little shorten it, if we had an explanation from the Government as to what the Vote really meant before we were asked to discuss it.

Much of this discussion, I submit, has not been relevant. As to the question of a Post Office at Basingstoke, it is true there is an item of that nature in the list, but it is a work in progress. It has already been determined upon. There is no decision to be taken upon that in these Estimates. I may say that the Post Office accounts are proper commercial accounts. With regard to the chief point of substance in the discussion, we are endeavouring this year to obviate the necessity for re-voting money. Last year, I understand, the authority for spending money taken in the Votes was held in suspense until the guillotine fell in August. I am honestly trying this year to obviate that. In putting down these Votes now for spending money on new buildings, although it gives prolific copy to the Opposition to make speeches, and to obstruct business if they wish—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—at any rate every Member of the Committee will admit that it is a much easier thing to let your Estimates slide on to the end of the year and get them passed then under the guillotine. I am not doing that. The inevitable result of the method of postponing these Votes in the past has been that the contracts could not be placed until the winter. Every Member of the Committee will agree that it is not the way to carry on business to ask for tenders for new buildings at the beginning of the winter. It is not the way to encourage cheap tendering, as the overhead charges, naturally, on building work conducted under such conditions must be very much larger. By bringing on these Votes early these contracts can be made, and the work can go on during the summer, and the money will be spent. In that case there will be no re-voting. In view of what has been said and felt on the subject, I have endeavoured to provide for any such contingency this year. But we desire authority for spending so that we may not have to wait until the end of the year and so delay the work.

As to unemployment (relief work) it is quite true that the estimated amount is less than last year. The Office of Works is watching closely so that they may, as far as possible, relieve the situation. In the matter of new building, it is not the builders who are out of work. Where we have to look is more in the direction of employing men in road making or repairing. The Department has been endeavouring to provide for all the relief work that can be economically arranged.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that certain chairs which were required for the daily work of the office had been sold to the Disposal Board because they were not immediately wanted for any other of the Government buildings?

No, that is scarcely the case, but I will make careful inquiries into the matter in order subsequently to give the information to the hon. Member.

I only rise to draw attention to one point, that is the Post Office at Manchester. The Postmaster-General will know that there is very grave dissatisfaction in that Post Office owing to the accommodation provided for the staff which is very inadequate indeed. I would make an earnest appeal to the hon. Gentleman to see that alterations are made.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That Question be now put."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

( seated and covered ):I submit that as we are asked to vote a very large sum we should have a reasonable time to consider it.

( seated and covered ):The hon. Gentleman when he finished his speech said he would be prepared to answer other points. Are we to have no opportunity to put them?

I cannot ask the Minister to answer other points.

The Committee divided: Ayes 112; Noes 53.

Division No. 47.]

AYES.

[12.32 a.m.

Alstead, R.

Clarke, A.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ammon, Charles George

Cluse, W. S.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Aske, Sir Robert William

Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Baker, W. J.

Cove, W. G.

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Banton, G.

Crittall, V. G.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Barclay, R. Noton

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Haycock, A. W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Hayday, Arthur

Black, J. W.

Dukes, C.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Bondfield, Margaret

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Bonwick, A.

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Foot, Isaac

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Buchanan, G.

Gillett, George M.

Hobhouse, A. L.

Buckle, J.

Gosling, Harry

Hoffman, P. C.

Cape, Thomas

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Hudson, J. H.

Charleton, H. C.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Maxton, James

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Murray, Robert

Spence, R.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Nixon, H.

Stephen, Campbell

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

O'Grady, Captain James

Stranger, Innes Harold

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Tinker, John Joseph

Kirkwood, D.

Phillipps, Vivian

Tout, W. J.

Lansbury, George

Ponsonby, Arthur

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Laverack, F. J.

Potts, John S.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Law, A.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Purcell, A. A.

Warne, G. H.

Lawson, John James

Raine, W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Leach, W.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Lindley, F. W.

Ritson, J.

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Loverseed, J. F.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Welsh, J. C.

Lunn, William

Romeril, H. G.

Westwood, J.

McCrae, Sir George

Royce, William Stapleton

Windsor, Walter

M'Entee, V. L.

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Macfadyen, E.

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Maden, H.

Scurr, John

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Sherwood, George Henry

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

March, S.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr.

Marley, James

Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington)

Kennedy.

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

NOES.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Savery, S. S.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Harland, A.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Sunlight, J.

Bullock, Captain M.

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Cope, Major William

Lamb, J. Q.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Lumley, L. R.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Dalkeith, Earl of

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Wells, S. R.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Eden, Captain Anthony

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Wolmer, viscount

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Ropner, Major L.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Gretton, Colonel John

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Captain Viscount Ednam and Major Colfox.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Question put accordingly, "That a sum, not exceeding £786,970, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 52; Noes, 113.

Division No. 48.]

AYES.

[12.40 a.m.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Savery, S. S.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Harland, A.

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Cope, Major William

Lamb, J. Q.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Lumley, L. R.

Wells, S. R.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Wise, Sir Fredric

Dawson, Sir Philip

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wolmer, Viscount

Eden, Captain Anthony

Reid, D. D (County Down)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Ropner, Major L.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Captain Viscount Ednam and Major Colfox.

Gretton, Colonel John

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

NOES.

Alstead, R.

Black, J. W.

Charleton, H. C.

Ammon, Charles George

Bondfield, Margaret

Clarke, A.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Bonwick, A.

Cluse, W. S.

Baker, W. J.

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Collins, Patrick (Walsall)

Banton, G.

Buchanan, G.

Cove, W. G.

Barclay, R. Noton

Buckle, J.

Crittall, V. G.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Cape, Thomas

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Laverack, F. J.

Royce, William Stapleton

Dukes, C.

Law, A.

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

Lawson, John James

Scurr, John

Foot, Isaac

Leach, W.

Sherwood, George Henry

Gillett, George M.

Lindley, F. W.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Gosling, Harry

Loverseed, J. F.

Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington)

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Lunn, William

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

McCrae, Sir George

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

M'Entee, V. L.

Spence, R.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Macfadyen, E.

Stephen, Campbell

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Maden, H.

Stranger, Innes Harold

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Sunlight, J.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

March, S.

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Haycock, A. W.

Marley, James

Tinker, John Joseph

Hayday, Arthur

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Tout, W. J.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Maxton, James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Murray, Robert

Turner-Samuels, M.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Nixon, H.

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfield)

O'Grady, Captain James

Warne, G. H.

Hobhouse, A. L.

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Hoffman, P. C.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Hudson, J. H.

Phillipps, Vivian

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Welsh, J. C.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Potts, John S.

Westwood, J.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Windsor, Walter

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Purcell, A. A.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly)

Raine, w.

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Ritson, J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Kirkwood, D.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Kennedy.

Lansbury, George

Romeril, H. G.

Original Question again proposed.

I think I am in order in moving a reduction on this vote to draw attention to a particular item. It is a question not to delay time but in order to get the Postmaster-General to give information to the Committee on a point which is really of national and imperial importance, I refer, of course, to the very large item of £46,000 which is being spent on making an enormous wireless plant near Rugby. We know quite well that it is His Majesty's opposition who chooses the Votes of Supply, and I think that in the past we have never had a full dress debate upon the policy of the Postmaster-General on the question of Wireless. Therefore, I think, this would be an opportune time to ask the Postmaster-General a question upon this particular thing. I understand that the negotiations between the Government and the Marconi Company are still not complete. Knowing the Marconi Company as well as I do, I should imagine these negotiations would never be completed. I should like to ask the Postmaster-General if he could tell us what he really intends to do in Rugby. Is it going to be a station that is going to communicate with Australia and South Africa direct, or is he going to adopt the recommendations—

I should like to know whether discussion of the Government's policy in relation to Imperial wireless is in order? I understand the Vote is for buildings.

I claim it is in order in this respect, that the amount you spend on this particular station is dependent on the policy you adopt with regard to how you conduct your transmission.

Is it not a fact that the Committee is now being asked to vote a certain sum of money for this station, and surely, therefore, it is entitled to discuss whether the station is necessary or not necessary?

Was not the principle settled last year when the expenditure was authorised for the year ending 31st March?

The Vote is for the erection of buildings at Rugby, and the discussion must be confined to buildings. It is quite in order to ask what these buildings are for, but not the policy of wireless.

I take it that I am in Order in asking what amount should be spent upon the buildings and that I could go no further than that point. Am I also in Order in discussing what equipment should be put into these buildings, which is the main cause of the expenditure of the money asked for. I would like to know what particular form of plant the Postmaster-General has decided to instal into this particular building. Here we have one of the biggest transmission stations the world has ever seen—probably of 1,000 kilowatts. Will he tell us the system he is going to adopt?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman must keep to the Vote before us, and not go into the kind of engines to be placed inside.

Surely this sum is for equipment. It is for masts, as these things come under the head of buildings. Surely one is entitled to discuss the interior of the building as well as the outside. If I am not in Order, when can we discuss the expensive machinery to be put inside?

Surely the construction of the building will be affected by the type of machinery, etc., which is inside. We are here presented with a type of building which requires £46,700. Surely my hon. Friend is in order in asking whether any other arrangement would not lead to a more economical or better system.

May I ask the Postmaster General whether he would consider taking with him some fitters to Rugby, and going into this matter.

I would like to ask whether, seeing that there is now a Labour Government, they will see that there is an advertisement of the "Daily Herald" on the postage stamps?

The Vote is for fittings, furniture, a long distance station, works and official residences. No! That is wrong. Surely there is a sum of £250 for fittings and furniture.

I protest at not being able to discuss what type of station the Government is going to spend money on. May I ask whether this particular building will be furnished?

Shall I be in Order if I ask a question on Customs and Excise, section E.?

I see the word "insurance" on page 34 and again on page 35. I do not see any insurance for post office and telegraph buildings. I am under the impression that the Government has always carried its own fire and other insurance. How is it that these two items still appear for Inland Revenue and Customs buildings and no insurance on any post office buildings? Are we to understand that the post office buildings are not insured, or is it that this means sickness insurance or insurance other than fire insurance? I hope the Postmaster General or the First Commissioner of Works can say what this is.

I would like to ask the Postmaster-General about the station at Rugby, under sub-head 2, and the erection of official residences there. On page 51 there is £46,700 and there is £10,000 upon the estimate for March 31, 1924. Then there is £2,820 for official residences, and I would like to know how many there are and when they are to start, as there is a housing shortage in Rugby and we would be glad to see them.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

Motion made, and again proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £139,180, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings."—[ Note: £70,000 has been voted on account. ]

1.0 A.M.

There is one question I want to ask—I see that there are a great many new Legation premises and Consular offices being erected at places such as Bangkok, Harbin, and Nankin. The question I want to raise is in connection with the Legation at Prague. I understand that the present Legation building is hired.

I gather that item B covers the maintenance of the Embassies and Legations which I mentioned.

I rise to ask a question in connection with the Legation at Budapest. There is an estimate for new premises. I know the old premises very well, and they are very comfortable premises, but I am prepared to admit that new premises may be necessary. What I want to know is why the original estimate of £9,000 should be exceeded by more than half as much again, especially in view of the exchange conditions. I would also like to point out that we have got for Consular residence and offices at Kermanshah a sum of £3,000 required for 1924–25. From a Consular, diplomatic, and military point of view this place is most important, but I draw attention to it in order to contrast the Vote for Saigon.

Are we not entitled to know why the hon. Member is enlightening us about Kermanshah?

My point is that the expenditure' to which we are committed at Kermanshah, which I admit is justified, is £10,000, while on the other hand the expenditure at Saigon, which is not so imperative, is £116,000.

I hope I shall be in order if I offer to criticise in general terms the tendency on the part of the Office of Works to become a designing Department.

On a point of Order. Surely it concerns these Estimates if the cost of these buildings contemplated are affected by the method adopted by the Office of Works.

These buildings under discussion are not in this country, they are abroad. They are Consular buildings, and the hon. Gentleman cannot say anything to the effect that the Office of Works has anything to do with them.

Surely all these Government buildings are designed through a department or in a department belonging to the Government. I feel strongly on this point and I respectfully submit that all these buildings are part of the Empire, and have been designed by men who become stereotyped in Government offices. I am very glad to see that Members above the Gangway are so anxious on this matter. They probably have in mind the Prime Minister's very eloquent speech last night at a dinner of the National Gallery when he expressed himself a man of great artistic temperament.

The hon. Member must draw attention to which of these buildings are designed by the Office of Works.

I feel that an important argument applies to all these buildings. I do not mind whether they are at Bangkok or elsewhere.

I must ask the hon. Gentleman to speak in scrupulous relation to the Vote. If he knows of any building designed by the Office of Works, then his criticism will be quite in order.

I am very sorry to cause this break in the Debate, but I am not quite certain which particular building has been designed by the Office of Works. I assume that all these buildings are planned by officials of the Government.

I cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to develop an argument upon an assumption.

On a point of Order. I understood, Mr. Young, that you called me. I will not detain the Committee a moment. You called me once.

I called the hon. Member, that is perfectly true, but he gave way to the right hon. Gentleman. There is an opportunity for the hon. Member after the Minister.

The question has been put with regard to the Consular buildings at Budapest. The premises previously occupied by the British representative there were on lease. New premises were purchased very cheaply and in a good situation. My hon. Friend has been there; I have been there myself. The Consulate at Kermanshah was occupied by the Turkish forces in 1917 and after the act of evacuation in March of that year the Consular buildings were found to be burned to the ground. The site was inspected by the British architect in 1919, who recommended rebuilding. A Consular residence is at present rented on a lease, expiring on 1st April, 1924. With regard to Saigon, the Consular-General is at present housed in rented premises, and it is proposed to proceed with the building of a Consular-General's house.

On page 31 of this Vote you have an item of insurance. Can we have some information as to what this insurance is for?

The explanation I have to make is this: In many cases the premises were rented, and we have to pay the insurance. Our own buildings we do not insure.

I was very anxious to raise a point concerning a certain legation which I understood was covered by the list of buildings under item B. I submit that I would be in Order in discussing, for instance, the new legation at Budapest.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

I want to ask one or two questions about embassies and legations. Is it contemplated in Constantinople that any money is to be spent on the Summer Embassy? It will be remembered that that embassy was burned down, and now we have taken over the premises formerly occupied by the Austrian Ambassador.

Is it contemplated to keep the summer residence permanently, or is that to be done away with?

It is on page 33, and if the hon. Gentleman reads the page he will find it there.

Is it proposed to keep it permanently as an Embassy now that the seat of Government has been transferred to Angora? I understand that town is extremely insalubrious, and it is doubtful whether any self-respecting Ambassador would be found to go there. If the Ambassador follows the Government, it would be useless to spend much money on Constantinople. There is an item for the Embassy at Petrograd. These Estimates have forgotten the conversion of the name to Leningrad. The seat of Government is no longer in Leningrad, but in Moscow. Is it the possible revival of a Tsarist régime which has made the sums here necessary? It seems hard on Mr. Hodgson that he should not have a proper house provided while money is going to keep up the Embassy in Leningrad. Vienna has been reduced to a Legation, and I found the old Embassy buildings in an excessively dowdy condition. I trust some more suitable place will be found at Prague. At Warsaw the Legation building is a very good one, but the Consular office, I found, was a very long way off. It will be necessary to provide that the two shall be nearer together.

The summer residence referred to is not to be retained. If there is any requirement of that sort to be met, it will be met by renting and not by rebuilding.

I called upon the hon. Gentleman, and therefore he is entitled to have a hearing.

I would like to make inquiry with regard to the estimate for Bangkok. The actual amount spent in the year ending March 31st, 1924, was £12,700, whereas the sum voted is £109,000. I should like to find out the reasons why there has been nearly £100,000 extra voted for one particular consulate in the year. I cannot see the necessity for having a residence at present at Harbin and with regard to Tengyveh in the Province of Yunan there is a new consulate to be erected there. Why is the estimate increased from £8,950 to £9,150? Have the Chinese labourers there struck for an increase of pay?

On page 32, item 8, we are told of a considerable expenditure on the Embassy and the Consular Offices at Tokio and Yokohama. Item 1 on the

same page refers to the Cairo residence. I understand that we are not going to have a resident any longer at Cairo, and is it necessary to proceed with this expenditure? Then, on page 33, among the buildings, maintenance for which is provided under Sub-head B, I see the Legation at Athens. We all regretted the other day to see that someone had tried to blow up that building. May we have information as to how much damage was done, and whether it is covered by this Vote.

There is an important question with regard to item 2 on page 32—a sum of £2,800 for the erection of a new chancery and garage at Christiania. I have not been there since 1918, but the building was then in good repair, and the Committee should be told why a new chancery is required. The garage I daresay is necessary.

rose in his place, and claimed, to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put. "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 110; Noes, 36.

Division No. 49.]

AYES.

[1.36 a.m.

Alstead, R.

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfield)

Purcell, A. A.

Ammon, Charles George

Hobhouse, A. L.

Raine, W.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Hoffman, P. C.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Baker, W. J.

Hudson, J. H.

Ritson, J.

Banton, G.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Barclay, R. Noton

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Romeril, H. G.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Royce, William Stapleton

Black, J. W.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Bondfield, Margaret

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Bonwick, A.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Scurr, John

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Kirkwood, D.

Sherwood, George Henry

Buchanan, G.

Lansbury, George

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Buckle, J.

Laverack, F. J.

Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington)

Cape, Thomas

Law, A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Charleton, H. C

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Clarke, A.

Lawson, John James

Spence, R.

Cluse, W. S.

Leach, W.

Stephen, Campbell

Cove, W. G.

Lindley, F. W.

Stranger, Innes Harold

Crittall, V. G.

Loverseed, J. F.

Sunlight, J.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lunn, William

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Dickie, Captain J. P.

McCrae, Sir George

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Dukes, C.

M'Entee, V. L.

Tinker, John Joseph

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Macfadyen, E.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H.

Maden, H.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Foot, Isaac

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

March, S.

Warne, G. H.

Gillett, George M.

Marley, James

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Gosling, Harry

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Maxton, James

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Murray, Robert

Welsh, J. C.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Nixon, H.

Westwood, J.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

O'Grady, Captain James

Windsor, Walter

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Phillipps, Vivian

Hayday, Arthur

Ponsonby, Arthur

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Potts, John S.

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Kennedy.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Pringle, W. M. R.

NOES.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Hartington, Marquess of

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Cope, Major William

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Thomson, Luke (Sunderland)

Dalkeith, Earl of

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lamb, J. Q.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lumley, L. R.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Ednam, Viscount

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Wise, Sir Fredric

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Ropner, Major L.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Mr. D. G. Somerville and Captain

Bowyer.

Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £139,180, be granted for the said Service,"

Public Buildings, Great Britain

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,199,180, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, including Historic Buildings, Ancient Monuments, and Brompton Cemetery."—[ Note : £570,000 has been voted on account. ]

Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £210,930, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."—[ Note : £107,000 has been voted on account. ]

We are asked tonight to vote a large sum of money, and I am quite in order to ask a question with reference to page 28, subhead A, new works, additions and alterations. The question I want to ask the First Commissioner of Works is why on earth it is found necessary at this time of great hardship and stress to spend a sum of £8,650 on the extension of the whale room at the Natural History Museum? I submit that that money may be better spent elsewhere. The only other question I want to ask on this Vote is with regard to the provision of workshops for the Victoria and Albert Museum. I understand that it is complete in workshops and all the necessities pertaining to the Museum for the repair of their exhibits and so on. I cannot see why this further sum of £5,000 should be voted by the Committee this year for this un-necessary extension.

put accordingly, and agreed to.

I feel that the point I attempted to make earlier this morning was a serious one. I take it that the Office of Works is responsible for planning and designing these buildings. I think they should give serious consideration to the matter of allowing outside architects to be engaged on these very important buildings. I have particularly in my mind the artistic point of view. I think the Office of Works should realise that they ought not to establish a permanent staff to maintain a permanent class of craftsmen to design all these important buildings, against giving out a certain amount of this work to outside architects of repute I have in my mind also very great building developments in London.

There is only one new building in this Vote, and the hon. Member must keep to it.

I would ask by what principle or method is the work carried on so as to have the full benefit of the advice of that special body set up by the late Government, the Commission of Fine Arts.

I only want to enforce the point which the hon. Member has just made. The new Science Museum at South Kensington is to cost £251,000 with £40 extra for fittings and furniture. I do feel that in the expenditure of a quarter of a million of public money the hon. Member who has just spoken should have the assurance that the design for this building will be thrown open to the public competition of the best architects. I ask that this expensive building will not be erected without some chance of the best possible expert advice having been got upon it.

I regret very much that this new science building does not offer any opportunities for the interesting body which was set up by the late Prime Minister, because apparently £130,720 has already been spent and it is now rather late for this body to consider the design. I have been diligently perusing this estimate and I find that really the only opportunity which this Commission will have for exercising its talents is the extension of the whale room. We all know the interest the Noble Lord has in natural history. As a great poet on another occasion said: "A fellow feeling makes us wondrous kind." His only concern is that the whales should be properly housed.

£40,000 is being spent on a new building for specimens preserved in spirit.

I am indebted to the Noble Lord. It is quite natural ne should have observed this. His devotion to spirits is only surpassed by his interest in natural history. If the Noble Lord will permit me to refer to his first love, I think it" is important we should ascertain why this extension of the whale room has been undertaken. We have been to these estimates are really part of the damnrosa hereditas to which the right hon. Gentlemen on the front bench have succeeded. We can understand why the late Government should be interested in whales after the policy they put before the country. I want to know whether they have added to the stock of whales.

I do submit that it is most important, in discussing this extension of the whale room, to know whether it is new specimens they are going to house.

I submit to your ruling, but obviously when there is a vote for the extension of a building we should enquire what is the reason for the extension. Either it is the growth of the whales or the increase in the number. The right hon. Gentleman has not yet indicated what it is. He has no information on the subject and I am surprised that the First Commissioner of Works, with his well-known industry, has not entered upon any researches into this. I may be wrong in supposing this has come down from the late Government. This may be part of the activities of the new Government. We know there was to be new spirit and new methods and here we have it coming in. This, so far as I can make out, is the, first instalment of the housing policy of the Government. We were told that that policy was on the basis of the £500 house. I find that they are spending £8,600. At the rate of £500 a house this seems to mean that there are 17, with a balance of £50 for contingencies, which may be because the builders are asking for two pence an hour extra. It seems to me that the Committee is sufficiently seized of the importance of this subject to enable the Commissioner Of Works to reply.

Question put, and agreed to.

Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £363,490, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health)."—[ Note,: £180,000 has been voted on account." ]

I wish to raise a point of very serious importance. I have made it my business to raise it annually, and I hope eventually to succeed in getting some remedy. The amounts allocated for employment exchanges in almost every instance refer to provision for the erection of huts in order that the unemployed may register for their unemployed benefit. In the year 1919 the Aberconway Committee reported that there should be attention paid at once to the unsuitable position of the employment exchanges throughout the country, and the Barnes Committee of 1920 also reported that evidence had been presented to them that showed that the employment exchanges in many instances were totally inadequate, unsuitable, and mitigated against the effective working of the staffs. I do not know whether the Committee had their attention called to a press photograph holding up to ridicule the style of employment exchange that has been provided, and which this estimate seeks to perpetuate. It showed a partition cut out of a great advertising hoarding with a slip of paper over the top "Entrance to the Labour Exchange," and behind the hoarding was the hutments for the registration and the signing on of applicants for benefit. In these votes, as last year, there is provision made for reconditioning of premises in order to make them suitable for employment exchanges. Some of these are old shops closed as unsafe for ordinary habitation.

A further point is that our present employment exchanges are not only a discredit but a disgrace to the country in the inadequacy of the provision made for the comfort of the signees. Whilst I recognise that the reconditioning of the premises will have to go on, I hope that, with a Labour Government in power, they will make provision for more suitable accommodation. Why on earth should there not be permanent buildings erected that would provide for warmth, comfort and shelter for the unfortunate people who for the last four years have had to tramp backwards and forwards and queue up to form a subject of cheap jeer for the snob passer-by? Last year the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour said that undoubtedly there was great truth in these allegations as to the condition of many of the employment exchanges, and that a Committee representative of the Office of Works, the Treasury and the Ministry of Labour had been frequently in consultation to see to what extent the grievance could be remedied. I would like to ask whether any Committee continues to act, and whether any report has yet been made, and whether a Ministry composed of persons with a full knowledge of the circumstances will give us some indication that we shall no longer have an estimate for hutments or the reconditioning of old premises, but that they will go very thoroughly into the matter, and, if needs be, appoint a Departmental Committee with powers of inspection in order that many of the grievances shall be remedied.

Question put, and agreed to.

Works and Buildings in Ireland

Motion made and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £80,140, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Public Works and Buildings in Ireland."—[ Note: £114,000 has been voted on account. ]

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I desire to draw attention to one item in this Vote, and I regret very much that the Government are taking this Vote at this time in the morning. There is a provision in sub-head A, new works, alterations and additions, and I find on page 87 provision for the residence for the Governor of Northern Ireland of £46,000. I remember a little more than a year ago of a protest from an hon. Member on the other side of the Gangway against this House voting the salary for the Governor of Northern Ireland. I think we ought to have some explanation. In view of the importance of the issue, I move to report Progress.

There is not very much to explain in connection with this Vote, but I should say, in response to my hon. and learned Friend, that there is a difference in connection with the Vote for the expenses of the residence and the salary of the Government of Northern Ireland from that which appertains in the Dominions. The point has been raised on the floor of the House more than once. am informed that Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom and in consequence we are compelled by an Act of Parliament passed in 1921 to provide this residence and salary. I can only add that there is no parallel case to this to be found anywhere else.

I want seriously to protest against this business. I think this Estimate is an outrage on the House of Commons, and particularly from my colleagues on the Front Bench. I cannot find any defence for spending £46,000 on this. I agree there is no parallel; one in a life time is sufficient for any Government to be going on with.

The Question before the Committee now is that the Committee do report Progress. I cannot allow discussion on the merits of the Vote; it must be confined to this Motion.

I think, on second thoughts, the hon. Member and learned Gentleman will see that it would be desirable to let us get this Vote to-night. He knows perfectly well it will come on the Report stage when it can be discussed. That is one of the inheritances which we have to carry out under any circumstances—

We have also to consider the far more important question of the settlement in Ireland. It would be absolutely fatal if we do anything which would stir up that unpleasant position. We all know that the situation is extremely critical at the present time, and both Ulster and the rest of Ireland comment upon anything which we do to change the settlement to which they have come. It would be very unfortunate if we rejected this arrangement which was made under the settlement.

I am quite prepared to accept the Motion. It is understood that we have to get through the business sometime.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next (7th April).

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

Public Accounts

Ordered,

Mr. Gwynne be discharged from the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

That Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel be added to the Committee—[ Mr. F Hall. ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-two minutes after Two o'Clock, a.m.