House of Commons
Wednesday, April 9, 1924
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Foreign Office
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the nature of the Press articles for which the sum of £650 was paid last year by his Department, and why it is anticipated that such expenditure will be increased during this financial year?
The articles deal with British trade, commerce and industry, finance, and other items of general interest, and are, in the main, compiled from publications issued from official sources, such as the Department of Overseas Trade and the Board of Trade. The sum provided for them in the Estimates last year was £550, and not £650. As it is considered desirable to incorporate more material from the publications referred to, the Estimate has been increased to £600 this year.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many men are employed in the printing establishment attached to his Department, and how such men are appointed: what is the annual estimated cost of such works; and what kind of printing work is done in those workshops?
The present number of employés at the Foreign Office Press is 98, made up of 81 male staff and 17 female staff. The men are appointed by selection from the printing trade. The estimated annual cost of the works is £25,000. The Press produces bookwork printing and book- binding for the Foreign Office, and a small amount of work for other Government Departments.
Does the experience gained by the working of this printing office tend to show that it is advisable that a Government office should engage in trading operations?
That hardly arises, but there is no reflection at all upon the efficiency of this Department.
Munitions (Shipment to China)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that attempts are being made to ship from a European country large consignments of arms and ammunition for war purposes in the East, and that attempts have been made to persuade a British shipping company to transport these munitions; and whether any warning has been issued to shipping companies and underwriters with regard to this matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, the attention of Lloyd's has been drawn to the China Arms Embargo of 1919.
In view of the serious nature of that reply, will the hon. Gentleman consider bringing this to the notice of the Council of the League of Nations?
Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House what consignment of arms this is, and where it is going?
I should require notice of that question.
Peace Treaties
Mandated Territories (Railways)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that difficulties have arisen with reference to the ownership of the railways in Mandated territories; that the Marquess Theodoli has expressed the opinion that in one area the Treaty of Versailles had been violated; and that a Report on the whole subject is being prepared by the legal section of the League of Nations; and will this Report be made available to Members of the British Parliament at an early date?
I am aware that difficulties have arisen in certain areas over the question whether the railways should be treated in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles applying to State property, or with those applying to private property. But it is difficult to answer the question without knowing more precisely what point and which railways the hon. Member has in mind.
Will the Government refrain from taking any action in this matter until the Report is available from the legal section of the League of Nations?
I wish my hon. Friend would be more precise in his question, with regard to what actual points and which railways he has in mind.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider asking the Law Officers of the Crown to look into this question and advise the Government?
Turkey (Armenians)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to telegrams from Constantinople stating that the Turkish Government proposes to exclude all Armenians from a zone lying east of a line drawn from Samsum to Selefke; whether he has any information on this subject; and, seeing that such restriction would not be in accordance with the Minority Clauses of the Treaty of Lausanne, are representations being made to the Turkish Government regarding this matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but it appears uncertain whether the intention of the Turkish Government is to expel the Armenians at present resident within the zone concerned or merely to prevent the immigration into that zone of Armenians at present resident outside Turkey. I may add that one of the reasons why His Majesty's Government are anxious to have the Lausanne Treaty ratified is to enable them, if necessary, to make proper representations on breaches of its provisions.
British Claims (Turkey)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Report of the Reparation Claims Commission has now been published; if so, what is the number of claims of British subjects against Turkey; and what is the total of the amount assessed?
I have been asked to reply. The final Report of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action as to the distribution of the £5,000,000 compensation fund has been published as a White Paper, Cmd. 2066. The number of claims against the £5,000,000 in respect of damage suffered in Turkish territory and the Caucasus is 3,904, in respect of which approximately £750,000 is in course of payment. In addition, £70,275 has been paid in respect of claims for death and personal injury suffered in Turkish territory and about £9,000 further will be paid in respect of such claims.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the inability of the Government to supplement out of national funds the amount available under the Treaty of Lausanne for the payment of British claims against Turkey, he is prepared to allow the value of the two Turkish dreadnoughts which were requisitioned from Turkey at the commencement of the War to be placed to the credit of the fund to meet the claims of British subjects: and whether he is aware that Ismet Pasha at Lausanne renounced on behalf of Turkey all claims to a refund of the value of these two dreadnoughts?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, I am aware that Ismet Pasha renounced on behalf of Turkey any claim to the value of these battleships, but in so doing he was renouncing a claim which His Majesty's Government never recognised as valid.
Egyptian Railways
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the general manager of the Egyptian railways has had to resign owing to the Egyptian Minister having taken all power out of his hands so that he could no longer be responsible for the safety of the passengers or maintenance of the services, he will state what steps have been taken to preserve the communication with the Sudan that is so essential for that country.
So far as I am aware, there are no indications that overland communication with the Sudan is menaced, whilst the much more important sea route remains unaffected, by the incident to which the hon. Member refers.
Treaties (Registration)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Treaties entered into by this country are registered with the League of Nations, as provided by Article 18 of the Covenant; and whether there are any Treaties or undertakings not so registered?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Once a month any outstanding Treaties and undertakings are sent by the Foreign Office to the Secretariat of the League to be registered. A few are still awaiting registration under Article 18 of the Covenant.
Sudan (Gezireh Cotton)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has yet been received from the Sudan Government concerning the suggestions made to it by His Majesty's Government in regard to fixing maximum prices for Gezireh cotton and the restriction of its sale to British buyers; and, if so, will he state what replies the Sudan Government has given?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
Italy (Expulsion of British Journalist)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received a report from His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome regarding the expulsion from Italy of Mr. G. Giglio, a British subject, and the correspondent of a London daily newspaper; if so, what is the nature of the report; and whether friendly representations are being made to the Royal Italian Government on this matter?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information from His Britannic Majesty's Ambassador at Rome with regard to the expelled correspondent of a London daily newspaper; and, if so, whether he will acquaint the House with the nature of that information?
The expulsion of M. Giglio was carried out by the regular police in accordance with Italian law. No application to communicate with His Majesty's Embassy was made until the day following M. Giglio's departure, although both time and opportunity for so doing were not lacking between his arrest and expulsion had he desired to do so. The above facts having been communicated by the Italian Government to His Majesty s Ambassador in answer to his inquiries, no further action on the part of His Majesty's Government appears called for.
Am I to understand that a report has been received from His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome on this matter?
Yes, Sir, he has reported.
May I be told the nature of the report, as asked for in my question?
Could the hon. Gentleman say how much the telegrams would cost, and if it is really worth it?
May I ask what is the nature of the report? It is in the question, and I gave full notice.
I have given my hon. and gallant Friend as much information as we have received by telegram.
Does not the hon. Gentleman think it a matter of importance to take up the question of the expulsion of a British newspaper correspondent from any country in the world?
Tourists in Germany
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether tourists from this country will be allowed to visit either the British occupied area in Germany or the Ruhr district during the present year; whether any special permits or visas are now required; and can he make any general statement on the subject before the holiday season commences?
A British subject wishing to proceed to the British occupied area only requires to have his passport endorsed for that area at the Passport Office. Entry into the Ruhr district is a matter which rests with the French authorities, from whom, under existing Regulations, a visa has to be obtained within three days of arrival in the district.
Fruit Export Tax, France
The following Question stood on the Paper in the name of : 18. To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that a 25 per cent, ad valorem export tax has been placed on the export of fruit from France to this country; that this tax is hampering a very valuable and highly organised trade between the two countries; and whether he will consider making friendly representations to the Government of the French Republic on the subject?
This morning news was received that this tax had been removed, and, therefore, I do not desire to put the question.
Court of International Justice
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the names of States which have pledged themselves to submit all their disputes with oné another to the permanent Court of International Justice; and whether he is prepared to recommend the Government to take similar action?
As the answer is mainly a list of names, perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. As was stated in reply to the hon. Member for North Hackney (Mr. J. Harris) on the 2nd instant, I am not yet able to make any announcement of the policy of His Majesty's Government in the matter.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if this country accepted the same position as other nations, it would be the finest moral gesture that could be given?
Following is the portion of the answer referred to:
Compulsory jurisdiction has been definitely accepted, in many cases for five years only, by Austria, Bulgaria, China, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Haiti, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, and, subject to acceptance by at least two permanent members of the Council of the League, by Brazil.
The Clauses accepting compulsory jurisdiction have also been signed, but not ratified, by Costa Rica, Latvia, Liberia, Luxemburg, Panama, and Salvador.
Consular Service
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government is represented abroad by any consuls or vice-consuls who are not British-born subjects; and, if so, will he give particulars of such cases?
All members of the salaried Consular Service are British subjects. Apart from these officers, there are 534 unsalaried consular officers, of whom 178 are not British subjects. I hope the hon. Member will not press me to give particulars of all these cases, the compilation of which would involve a serious amount of time and labour. The principle invariably observed in making appointments to these honorary posts is that no foreigner is appointed if a suitable British subject willing to undertake the duty is available.
Is it the case that these honorary officials do not receive anything either directly or indirectly for their services?
Not from any Government source of which I know.
Mixed Arbitral Tribunal (Enemy Debts)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since he has power under clauses of the Peace Treaty to insist upon the setting up of another division of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal, he will state why, in view of the large number of cases awaiting settlement, he does not exercise the rights conferred by the Treaty?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer to the reply given to the hon. Baronet on the 25th March.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that does not reply to this question?
I think the hon. Baronet will find that the answer does cover the point.
Abyssinia and Arabia (Slavery)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that on 30th July last the Foreign Secretary promised to call for reports from British representatives upon slavery from Abyssinia and Arabia; has His Majesty's Government yet received these reports or any other authentic information bearing upon the subject; and will this information be placed at the disposal of the League of Nations?
The answer to the first part of the question is, as regards Abyssinia, in the affirmative, as regards Arabia, in the negative. The reports which have been received will be placed at the disposal of the British representative on the competent body to be appointed by the League of Nations to examine the question of slavery.
Can these reports be furnished to the House of Commons?
I should require notice of that question.
Royal Navy
Callao (Vice-Consul's Clerk)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what are the duties of the clerk to the Vice-Consul at Callao, for whom a provision of £12, including bonus, is made in the Navy Estimates, 1924–25; and whether it is a whole-time appointment?
The clerk is employed, for part time, on minor clerical duties in the Vice-Consul's office.
Is this an annual or a quarterly payment?
It is an annual contribution, but it does not indicate that it is the whole salary.
Is this a coloured or a white gentleman?
Easter Leave (Railway Facilities)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if any concessions are granted by the railway companies to service men proceeding on Easter leave?
Under standing arrangements which will apply at Easter, as at any other time of the year, the railway companies issue return tickets at the rate of a single fare and a third to men proceeding on leave. Detailed Regulations were promulgated in Admiralty Fleet Order No. 3119, dated the 23rd November, 1923.
Can my hon. Friend say whether this will also apply to the other Services?
I can only speak for the Admiralty.
Retired Pay
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that when the 20 per cent. stipulation was made regarding pay and retired pay in 1919 there was no thought in the minds of either the Government or the Admiralty that large reductions would be compulsorily made in the naval personnel or that, in addition, it would be necessary to deprive a large number of officers of five years' service on full pay, and that retired officers will not be eligible for marriage allowance in accordance with the original understanding, he will give reconsideration to the case of retired officers so that their retired pay may not be reduced?
As the reply is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The reply is as follows:
The terms given under the 1922 retirement scheme to officers retired under the scheme were, with one exception, fixed on the assumption that the rates of retired pay granted would be subject to the same variations in respect of changes in the cost of living as other rates of pay. These terms took into account any loss of emoluments suffered by officers concerned, and I regret that no reason is seen for making a change, which was not contemplated at the time, and which would place these officers, who form but a minority of officers on the retired list, in a more favourable position than other officers. Also no reason is seen for exempting retired pay generally from reduction, on the score that marriage allowance is not payable. The question of granting a marriage allowance or higher rates of retired pay to married officers on the retired list has not, so far as I am aware, been under consideration, and in the other Services, married officers on the retired list are treated in exactly the same way as unmarried officers.
His Majesty's Ship "Lion."
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if, before it is too late, he will reconsider the question of maintaining the "Lion" as a national memorial of the services rendered by the Royal Navy during the Great War?
The Washington Treaty specifically names His Majesty's Ship "Lion" among the Capital Ships which must without fail be completely scrapped within 18 months of the ratification of the Treaty. She has been sold and is now actually in process of being broken up. Apart from this, the annual cost of maintenance of a ship of her construction in such a state of preservation only as would fulfil the purpose desired would be very large. The Board of Admiralty, who have given the most careful consideration to this matter, share the natural regret, which will be very generally felt, at the impracticability of preserving this historic ship as a national memorial.
Officers (Marriage Allowance)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that in 1919, when the pay of the fighting Services was being decided upon and fixed, it was understood at the time by all naval officers that they would come under similar treatment for marriage allowance to the Army and Air Force, and that this understanding has not materialised, the Admiralty can see their way clear not to interfere with naval officers' pay, in so far as the 20 per cent. increase is concerned?
I am unable to accept the assumption contained in the first part of the question, as the new scales of naval pay in 1919 were announced an appreciable time before the principle of granting marriage allowance to officers of the Army and Air Force was decided upon. The Admiralty is unable to give the undertaking asked for, but, as previously stated, the question of introducing marriage allowance for naval officers is at present under consideration.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the pay of equivalent ranks of officers in the Navy, Army, and Air Force, with the marriage allowance of the two latter included?
As the reply is in tabular form, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The reply is as follows:
PAY OF MARRIED OFFICERS OF ROYAL NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE WHEN NOT VICTUALLED OR ACCOMMODATED. Royal Navy. Army.† Air Force.† Rank. Pay per diem. Provision Allowance per annum. Lodging Allowance per annum. Servant's Allowance per annum. Total. Rank. Pay per diem. Ration Allowance per diem. Furniture per diem.§ Lodging Allowance per diem.§ Fuel and Light per diem.§ Servant's Allowance per diem. Total. Rank. Pay per diem. Ration Allowance per diem. Lodging Allowance per diem§ Fuel and Light per diem.§ Servant's Allowance per diem. Total. s. £ £ £ £ s. d. s. d s. d s. d. s. d. s. d. £ s. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. £ Rear-Admiral. 100 55 100 60 to 188. 2,040 to 2,168. Major-General. 100 0 1 7 7 0 11 0 5 7 4 0 2,357 Air Vice-Marshal. 100 1 7 11 0 5 7 4 0 2,230 Captain 60 * to 75. to 75. 55 100 60 1,310 to 1,584. Colonel Commdt. 64 6 1 7 2 0 8 6 4 5 4 0 1,551 Group Captain. 55 to 64. 1 7 5 6 4 5 4 0 1,287 to 1,451 Commander. 40 to 52. 55 80 || 865 to 1,084. Lieut.-Col. * 47 6 1 7 2 0 4 6 3 3 2 0 1,293 Wing Cdr. 40 to 50. 1 7 4 6 3 3 2 0 937 to 1,119 Lieut.-Commander. 30 55 80 || 683 Major. 31 6 1 7 2 0 4 6 3 3 2 0 818 Sqdn. Leader. 34 1 7 4 6 3 3 2 0 827 to to to to to to 34 756. 37 0 919. 36 864 Lieut.‡ 17 55 80 || 445 Captain 23 6 1 7 2 0 4 6 3 3 2 0 672 Flight Lieut. 29 1 7 4 6 3 3 2 0 736 to to to to 24. 573. 26 0 718 * These Officers when in command receive an allowance in respect of the responsibilities of command and the expense of entertaining. These Officers when in command receive an allowance in respect of the responsibilities of command and the expense of entertaining. † Married Officers of the Army and Air Force when detached on service from their wives and families and not accommodated or rationed at the public expense are in addition entitled to Lodging and Fuel and Light Allowances at the rates laid down for unmarried Officers. Officers similarly situated who themselves are victualled and accommodated draw the married rates of allowances in respect of their families for Lodging, Fuel and Light, and Furniture (the last Allowance is payable to Army Officers only). ‡ As married allowances are granted in the Army and Air Force to Officers of 30 years of age and over, Officers of the rank of Lieutenant, R.N. (except those promoted through the Mate scheme) would only benefit exceptionally, if married allowances subject to a similar age limit were granted to Officers of the R.N. § Payable to married Officers over the age of 30. Reduced rates of Lodging Allowance in the Army and of Fuel and Light Allowance in both Army and Air Force are, however, payable to married Officers under 30 and to unmarried Officers generally. ║ Not payable to Officers below the rank of Captain except in the case of Commanders holding certain specified appointments which may be regarded as "in command of a ship or Establishment" or a position of equivalent importance and in the case of Flag Lieutenants and Secretaries to the Commanders-in-Chief at the three Home Ports.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether any decision has yet been reached on the subject of marriage allowance to naval officers?
The answer is in the negative.
If I put a question down for the first Wednesday after Easter, will the hon. Gentleman be able to give me an answer?
I have every hope of so doing.
New Cruiser Construction
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that quite recently boilers for one of His Majesty's ships were constructed in His Majesty's dockyard, Portsmouth; and if he will consider the advisability of having the boilers for the new cruiser to be laid down at Portsmouth constructed in the boiler shop of Portsmouth dockyard?
Boilers have been constructed at the yards in exceptional circumstances, but it is considered inadvisable in a new contract to depart from the usual practice under which the machinery contractor is responsible for the construction and efficiency of the whole of the propelling machinery.
Does not the hon. Gentleman think, in view of the exceptional circumstances, this is a suitable time?
I am afraid I have nothing to add to my answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state the cost involved in putting out to tender the five new cruisers?
If the hon. and gallant Member means to ask for the cost to Navy Votes of the construction of these vessels, I would refer him to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on 27th February. If, however, he means the cost incurred by the Admiralty in getting out invitations to tender, the reply is that some extra draughtsmen were employed for a few weeks, but the cost is inconsiderable and cannot be accurately stated.
Will these vessels be named after pacifists on the Front Bench?
Accountant Officers
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what duties are to be performed by the senior accountant officers recently appointed to the staffs of the Commanders-in-Chief at Devonport, Portsmouth and Chatham; and if, seeing that no accounts will be kept by them, he will consider saving this expense?
The duties of these officers are of an administrative nature, the object being the co-ordination under the Commanders-in-Chief of accountant work generally, which of recent years has become much more varied and complex. Considerable advantages are anticipated from these appointments, both in the direction of economy and simplification of accountant procedure.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this means an increase of about £4,000 a year, and this does not appear in Vote A?
It is anticipated the net result will be a considerable advantage which will result in economy.
Officers' Pay
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to reduce the pay of naval officers by 5½ per cent, of the total increase from 1st July, 1924, in consequence of the fall in the cost of living; whether he is aware that, in certain other Ministries, salaries are being increased in consequence of the increase in the cost of living; and, if so, whether he can explain the position?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. The reduction of officers' pay is in accord with the arrangement made when the pay of naval officers was revised in 1919, that 20 per cent. of the rates of pay then introduced should be considered as due to the high cost of living at that time, and subject after five years to change either upward or downward according as the cost of living might rise or fall, revision thereafter to take place every three years. The Civil Service bonus is, however, subject to revision every six months.
Does not the Admiralty realise that these continual readjustments in naval pay make it extremely difficult to get the right class of boy to go into the Navy?
I do not think it is quite right to refer to continual readjustments. This was a readjustment made by the Halsey Committee in 1919, and it is now proceeding along the ordinary lines.
In view of the fact that very large numbers of workers in this country are taking very vigorous measures to improve their lot, is it not rather inconsistent that the pay of officers should be reduced at the same time?
The procedure here is precisely that which is taken by industrial workers, namely, a Committee of Inquiry was appointed, and this is the result.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a great many naval officers have to borrow money in order to live?
Air Arm
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that, when the reconstruction of H.M.S. "Glorious" and H.M.S. "Courageous" have been carried out, the British Navy will possess eight aircraft carriers with a carrying capacity for carrying 400 aeroplanes; whether he is aware that at the present moment only about 100 machines are allocated for service with the Royal Navy; what arrangements have been made for the Royal Naval Air arm to receive the necessary peace-time preparation to be ready for emergencies and possible calls which may be made upon it; and whether it is intended to pass aircraft carriers into service without their establishment of machines?
If the two seaplane carriers "Ark Royal" and "Pegasus" are included, the Navy will possess eight aircraft carriers when H.M.S. "Glorious" and H.M.S. "Courageous" are completed. The carrying capacity, as stated in the question, is considerably in excess of the number of aircraft that these vessels will be able to accommodate. The number of machines quoted as allocated at the present to the Royal Navy is approximately correct if reserves are excluded. Arrangements have been made for the provision of the number of aircraft necessary in the near future in view of the accommodation that will become available. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Torpedo Depot, Portsmouth (Discharges)
asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that temporary men who were taken on in the torpedo depot, Portsmouth, are being discharged despite a promise recently given by him to the effect that the men entered temporarily for the winter were to be retained, he will have this matter reconsidered?
The promise given was that every possible step should be taken with a view to retaining the men in question. This has been done, but it is regretted that it has not been found practicable to retain them.
Messrs. Woolworths, Swansea
asked the Minister of Labour if he has yet been able to effect a settlement of the dispute between the firm of Woolworths, of Swansea, and their employés; and whether, in view of the low rates of pay obtaining amongst employés of this firm and others doing a similar class of business, he will expedite the setting up of a trade board for the occupation?
With regard to the first part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Norwich on 3rd April. With regard to the second part, I am examining the question of applying the Trade Boards Acts to this type of trade.
Unemployment
Government Proposals
asked the Minister of Labour if he can give a date upon which he will announce the Government's proposals for relieving unemployment?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Stock-ton-on-Tees on Thursday last.
Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to give any time, and that there is no proposal to put forward at all?
Insurance Contributions (Refund)
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that unemployment contributors who come under a certificate of exception, and have reached the age of 60 years before they have completed the minimum number of contributions to entitle them to a refund, are being refused a refund; and will he consider an amendment to the Unemployment Insurance Act to enable a claim to be made under such circumstances?
Under Clause 9 of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill now before Parliament it is proposed to abolish these refunds entirely for the future. I am afraid I cannot adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
Domestic Service
asked the Minister of Labour how many of the 240,000 women and girls now unemployed are receiving the dole; and whether any attempt has been made to induce any number of these women and girls to accept posts as domestic servants in view of the great difficulty that many house-holders are experiencing at the present moment in obtaining domestic servants?
On 24th March the number of women and girls claiming benefit was 206,320, and it may be taken that approximately three-fourths of this number were actually drawing benefit. All these women and girls have a record of previous employment in insurable work, which does not include private domestic service; but I can assure the hon. Member that every precaution is taken to ensure that any woman or girl for whom a domestic situation is suitable employment is not allowed to remain on benefit if she refuses an offer of such a situation.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a definition of "suitable employment"?
Will there be any attempt made to induce people who ought to be doing their own domestic service, to do it?
It may be difficult to give a list of occupations which would unsuit a girl for domestic employment, but girls from such occupations as dressmaking, weaving and typing are obviously unsuitable for sending into domestic service.
rose —
We must not have a debate.
I do not wish to debate. I have risen three times.
Calendar Reform
asked the Prime Minister when the next meeting of the League of Nations Committee on the reform of the calendar is to be held; whether the British Government has been asked to state its views before the date of that meeting; and, if so, what steps are to be taken in the matter?
I understand that the next meeting of the Committee is fixed for next month. His Majesty's Government have been asked for their views, but have replied that they prefer to await the conclusions and recommendations of the Committee before defining their attitude.
De we understand that there will be no reform made by His Majesty's Government?
This is in the hands of a special expert Committee. We prefer to get the advice of the experts before declaring any views of our own.
Has not the opinion of His Majesty's Government been invited?
I said it has, but in view of the circumstances we felt the wise thing to do was to hold our hand for the moment.
Before such a reform can be given universal effect, will it not be necessary to persuade the Soviet Government to adopt the Gregorian calendar?
Representation of the People Act (1918) Amendment Bill
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the support given by all quarters of the House of Commons to the principle of equal franchise, will the Government either introduce a Measure or Bill of their own or expedite the passage of the Representation of the People Act (1918) Amendment Bill in its Committee and later stages?
The Government are in entire sympathy with the principle of equal franchise, but in view of the pressure upon Parliamentary time they cannot undertake to introduce legislation at this stage. As regards the private Bill to which the hon. Member refers, I cannot add to the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal on the Second Reading.
Indian Non-Co-Operation Leaders
asked the Prime Minister whether Mr. Gandhi, Mr. C. R. Das and Mr. Motilal Nehru have been invited by the British Cabinet to a conference to be held in London?
The answer is in the negative.
Will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of adopting this very wise policy?
Rating and Valuation Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to proceed this Session with the Rating and Valuation Bill prepared last year by the Ministry of Health?
I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer given yesterday by the Lord Privy Seal in reply to a question by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough.
Safeguarding of Industries Act
asked the Prime Minister whether he will bring proposals before Parliament to enable the majority of employers and the trade unions concerned in any one industry who so desire to have their industry brought under the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer regarding the Safeguarding of Industries Act given yesterday by the President of the Board of Trade to the hon. Member for Maccles-field.
If trade unions in certain industries unanimously ask for the protection of their industry and the employers unanimously ask, will not the Government bring the question before Parliament?
In that case will the interests of the consumers be taken into account?
I have no doubt that if trade unions or employers make representations to the Government they will consider the matter, but my hon. and gallant Friend is asking for Parliament to interfere, and in that case I cannot add anything to the reply I have given.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the sole reason why the question suggests bringing this matter before Parliament is that the question of the consumer should also be considered, and can he tell me definitely that if a trade union is unanimous on this subject the matter will be brought before Parliament?
The question has been answered.
International Opium Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether the Committee appointed to prepare the agenda for the international opium conferences convened by the League of Nations has yet met; who is the British representative; and whether any statement can be made regarding the decisions taken?
The Committee has met twice. The British representative on it is Sir Malcolm Delevingne, who represents His Majesty's Government on the Opium Advisory Committee of the League of Nations. No decisions have yet been taken, but the Committee will in due course submit a report to the League of Nations, by which it has been appointed.
Disarmament
asked the Prime Minister what steps he has taken to call an international conference to discuss disarmament?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield on the 3rd March.
Skilled Artisans
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the large number of engineers and other skilled artisans who left this country last year to take up permanent residence abroad, he can say that the number of such workers remaining in this country is sufficient to cope with any appreciable improvement in British industries that need their services?
Speaking generally, I think the number of skilled artisans in most trades is sufficient to cope with an appreciable improvement in employment. There are, of course, exceptions, as, for example, in certain occupations in the building trades, but steps are being taken by employers and workers to deal with the situation. I should point out further that the revival of trade may take place in such a way as to cause some change in the relative demand for various classes of skilled labour, and this may create a temporary shortage in some of them.
Is it not a fact that many skilled artisans who work in this country are paid less wage than semi-skilled workers, and that a great deal of resentment is caused.
That may be so, but it is not part of the question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the numbers of skilled artisans who have left the country recently?
I think an answer was given the other day on the subject.
Does the right hon. Gentleman really mind if they do leave the country, provided we can get articles cheaper from foreign countries?
I should be very sorry that competent artisans should leave the country and go to any other country, and I hope that our skilled workers can be kept here.
Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to see that they are paid proper wages?
Blind Persons (Pensions)
asked the Minister of Health how much it would cost to pay the subsisting grant to the blind persons of the country at the age of 40 and also at the age of 25; and whether he will arrange for a reduction in the age for payment in the ensuing year?
The answer is necessarily rather long and, with the hon. Member's permission, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
At present pensions of 10s. a week are paid, subject to certain means limits, to blind persons over 50 at a total annual cost of £320,000. Estimates have been made on the basis of the "Central Register of the Blind," compiled by the Advisory Committee of the Welfare of the Blind, which is the only source of information available as to numbers and ages of blind persons. Registration is not, however, compulsory and the Committee state that their figures suggest that the register is not complete. On the basis of the numbers on this register, it is estimated that if no means limit is applied, the present annual cost of granting pensions of 10s. a week to all blind persons in Great Britain between the ages of 25 and 70 (excluding, however, those who are at present receiving pensions from the Ministry of Pensions on account of blindness) would be approxi- mately £650,000 (as against the present £320,000). If similar pensions were granted to those between the ages of 40 and 70, the annual cost is estimated at £500,000. For the reasons mentioned previously it is likely that the figures given are an underestimate of the actual cost, though to what extent cannot be gauged. No sufficient information is available to enable an accurate estimate of the effect on cost of pensions if the age limit is reduced as suggested by the hon. Member but the present means limit is retained. Any reduction in the age limit prescribed would require legislation to amend the Blind Persons Act, 1920, but on this point it is not possible for me to make a statement.
Lunacy
asked the Minister of Health if he will furnish particulars of the diagnosis sent in to the Lunacy Commissioners (as required by statute) within seven days after admission by the medical superintendents, in the case of the 22 sane persons mentioned in the last Report of the Board of Control as having been wrongfully certified; will he procure from the Board the invalidation of the certifications and the removal of the names of these persons from the list of the certified; and will he state under what legal sanction their detention was continued for periods extending in some cases to as much as 50 days?
The Board of Control are not authorised to disclose the medical reports furnished to them by medical superintendents with regard to patients under their care. But I will supply the hon. Member with a statement showing the circumstances in which each of these cases was detained under observation. It is not possible to invalidate the certification of the persons mentioned: they were sent to the mental hospitals under proper legal authority (by order of a Justice in 21 cases, and by warrant of the Home Secretary in one case). Their names were however removed from the list of certified patients on discharge from the institutions. They were detained at the hospitals on the authority of the Justices' orders and Home Secretary's warrant for periods of varying lengths, to allow of special observation by the medical superintendents and further reports to the Board of Control.
asked the Minister of Health what regulations, if any, have been made by the Board of Control to ensure that where no prejudicial certificate has been sent into them patients in private asylums who have not been seen by a Magistrate shall receive the statutory notice of their right of appeal to a judicial authority, and that when the manager of the institution has neglected his duty in this respect such neglect, which is described in the Act as a misdemeanour, shall in future be followed by a prosecution of the offender?
No regulations are required, but the Board of Control have drawn the attention of the authorities of institutions receiving private patients to the requirements of Section 8 of the Lunacy Act, 1890. I do not consider that a prosecution should necessarily be undertaken in all cases of failure to observe the requirements referred to.
asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the declaration made by the Board of Control that they had been advised that neglect on the part of a medical superintendent to serve a private patient with notice of his right of appeal to a magistrate does not invalidate the reception order under which he was committed, he will take steps to enforce the right of a British subject to have his case heard and investigated by some judicial authority prior to imprisonment?
The point will no doubt be considered by the Royal Commission which it is proposed to appoint at an early date.
Patent Foods
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the serious danger to infant life and welfare arising from the widespread sale of proprietary and patent foods, consisting principally of starch; and whether he proposes to take any, and what, steps to enable local authorities to exercise control over the sale of unsuitable and unwholesome preparations advertised as infants' foods?
The matter has been the subject of investigation by my Department, and I will consider what action it may be desirable and practicable to take in the direction which the hon. Member suggests.
Tren-De-Hayes (Water Supply)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the delivery of water to the inhabitants of Tren-de-Hayes, in the parish of Rawreth, in the county of Essex, has been discontinued, leaving the people without drinking water, notwithstanding that a special rate of 2s. 4d. in the £ was paid, besides ¾d. per bucket for the water supplied; and if he will take steps to remedy this?
A loan was sanctioned last year for the supply of water to this parish. I am making inquiries as to the present position.
Housing
Labour Supply
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the practice of having regard to the labour available when sanctioning local authorities' housing schemes, but not when considering those of private enterprise, results in private enterprise schemes being sanctioned in areas where local authorities' schemes have been refused, with the result that the efforts of local authorities to provide houses for those unable to purchase are seriously handicapped; and if he will in future have regard to the labour available both when sanctioning all private enterprise schemes as well as local authorities' schemes?
Instructions were given to local authorities on the passing of the Housing Act last Session with the object of ensuring that full regard should be had to the labour available when submitting schemes for the assistance of private enterprise. These instructions were to the effect that they should only give undertakings to pay subsidy in respect of houses likely to be started within a reasonable time and completed within nine months, and in dealing with applications of local authorities for approval of such schemes only such numbers of houses are authorised as can be rapidly completed. I have no evidence to show that the results which the hon. Member apprehends have ever, in fact, arisen.
asked the Minister of Health how he proposes to supplement the labour employed in the building trade, considering that it has been reduced from 834,000 in 1901 to 632,000 in 1923, and there is a great urgency for building labour both for dwelling houses and industrial purposes?
I hope that it will be possible to supply the House with information on this subject in the course of a few days.
What form will the information take?
I intend to present to Parliament the Report which I have received from the building trades industry.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement on the whole position before the Easter Recess?
I can only promise to supply the information asked for in this question.
asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the unemployment in the building industry, he will give the names of those districts in which it has been found necessary to limit the grant of the subsidy in view of the amount of work in hand or the lack of essential skilled labour in the locality?
As regards the first part of the question, I think the hon. Member will be aware that in certain essential branches of the building industry the condition is not one of unemployment. As regards building of houses by local authorities themselves under the Act of 1923, the ordinary practice of the Department is to confer with the local authorities as to the number of houses which may be put in hand at a particular time. Nearly 500 local authorities in all parts of the country are up to the present undertaking building themselves; and the hon. Member may take it that in practically all these cases the numbers approved for immediate building are less than the local authorities would desire to put in hand if it could be shown that there were no lack of the essential skilled labour.
In view of the statement, which has been made definitely, that there is no unemployment in the building trade, how does the right hon. Gentleman propose to increase the number of houses?
By increasing the number of workers.
How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to increase the number of workers?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of the brick factories find great difficulty in transporting bricks owing to the difficulty of obtaining wagons, and will he take the matter up so as to facilitate builders getting bricks?
May I ask for an answer to my question?
If the hon. Member will control his curiosity until I have had the opportunity of presenting the Report which I have received from the building industry, he will obtain his information.
Evictions
asked the Minister of Health if he can now state the number of applications for orders for possession and the number of such orders granted since August, 1923, and the number of warrants for eviction granted and the actual number of ejectments made since August, 1923; and, if so, can he state the proportion of such orders and warrants granted on the grounds of non-payment of rent and for other causes, respectively?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which the Prime Minister gave on Monday, in reply to a similar question by the right hon. Member for Twickenham.
Have the telegrams referred to in the right hon. Gentleman's answer been yet sent out to the Registrars of the County Courts and to the Clerks of His Majesty's Justices?
I am not sure whether telegrams were sent out, but I can assure hon. Members that steps were taken immediately.
Has the right hon. Gentleman yet received any reply, inasmuch as County Court Judges have already made announcements on the matter themselves?
I could not say whether any replies have been received, but I know that sufficient information has not been received to justify me in presenting a report on the subject.
What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking?
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the announcement that the Government intend to give facilities to the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Withington (Mr. E. Simon), which will be considered in Committee upstairs next week, and considering the statements made by the Minister of Health to the effect that a state of affairs exists in Glasgow in regard to evictions which does not prevail in any other part of Scotland or in England, he will immediately appoint a Commissioner or Commissioners to investigate conditions in that city and adjoining districts with instructions to report at the earliest possible moment to the House?
Considerable information is already available as regards evictions in Glasgow and the West of Scotland generally, and further inquiries are being made which will, I believe, completely cover the ground. Moreover, my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has arranged to have a conference in Clydebank on Friday next with all the parties concerned in this matter. Clydebank, I may mention, is a district where the trouble is most acute. In these circumstances, I do not think that the appointment of a Commissioner, as suggested by the right hon. and gallant Member, is necessary.
Will the Government place at the disposal of the Members of this House the official figures in order that the House may be in a position to judge of this matter?
I should be very glad, indeed, to do anything I could in the matter. Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Member will repeat his question when we have received the Report from the Secretary for Scotland.
May I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House whether, in view of the urgency of preventing any further evictions of tenants, he will take the necessary steps to enable the Prevention of Eviction Bill to be passed into law before the Easter Recess?
Everything we can do will be done to hasten the treatment of this Bill by the Committee which has to deal with it, and to that end the Committee of Selection is called for tomorrow.
Could either the Leader of the House or the Prime Minister say when the House will be informed of the course which the Government propose to take in respect to that Bill? The Prime Minister said yesterday that the Bill in its present form was most unsatisfactory. It certainly does not carry out all the intentions of the Government. Can the House be informed, as a House, of what the intentions of the Government are, and have an opportunity of something compatible to a Second Reading Debate on the policy of the Government, instead of merely having it in a Committee upstairs on a Bill which has already received its Second Reading?
As I informed the House yesterday, we have sent the Bill of the hon. Member for examination, with the intention of moving certain Amendments, so far as they are in order within the Title of the Bill. That examination is still proceeding, and what will happen will be that they will be placed on the Order Paper without delay. I cannot pledge myself, but I should like very much if they could be handed in to-day, so that hon. Members would have them to-morrow; that may be found to be impossible, but it certainly will be done without delay.
The right hon. Gentleman is trying to meet us, and I hope he will not think me unreasonable, but he will see that the House is placed in a difficulty. Ordinarily, we have a declaration of the policy of the Government on the Second Reading of a Bill. In this case, they adopt a private Member's Bill, which has already been given a Second Reading. They may be able to get the whole of their policy into it, and in that case the whole of their policy will be apparent in the Amendments they put down, but if that is not the whole of their policy, but only part of it, will a statement be made by the right hon. Gentleman or one of his colleagues in this House showing what the policy of the Government now is?
In a case like this surely it is more convenient to wait and see what sort of Bill emerges from the Committee. On the Third Reading of this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO, on Report."] No, I think I am quite right; a general statement cannot be made on the Report stage. On the Third Reading of the Bill, when we see what its final form is going to be, if the Government have any supplementary statement to make, they will then make it, but, so far as the Government's position is concerned regarding emergency legislation, it was stated in connection with the Bill which is still alive but which did not succeed in getting its Second Reading on Monday.
On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is a fact that on Third Reading such a statement would be in order1? I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that on the Third Reading nothing is in order except what is contained within the four corners of the Bill.
I would not like to give an answer beforehand, but, generally speaking, what the hon. Member states is correct. It would not be in order to expound a new policy on the Third Reading of a Bill, but I should have to deal with that when it came.
May I put, in a slightly different form, the question to the Prime Minister that I put yesterday, on the quite narrow issue of the reimbursement or otherwise of local authorities who are helping tenants at the present time to pay their rents? Can the Government take an early opportunity of making some statement of their policy, for the convenience of boards of guardians up and down the country who are at present being bombarded with requests for assistance?
That does not arise at this point.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, pending this legislation, he will undertake, on behalf of the Government, to cease issuing summonses for eviction in respect of property of the Government?
That also does not arise here. The hon. Member has given notice to raise it to-night.
Subsidy
asked the Minister of Health whether his Department has rejected any and, if so, what applications from private builders for the housing subsidy put forward through local authorities?
The position under the Housing Act of 1923 is that the local authority comes to the Ministry for approval of a general scheme of subsidy to the private builder. The builder goes to the authority, and not to the Ministry. In four cases approval to general schemes has been withheld because the local authority could not satisfy the Minister, as prescribed by the Housing Act, that the houses to be subsidised under their scheme were such as could not be provided without assistance. The Ministry has been consulted by local authorities on individual cases, but solely on the question whether particular houses which have been built or are under construction fall within the scope of the Housing Act. In the case of some 1,700 houses, spread over the country for the most part in very small numbers in individual districts, it appeared that the houses did not comply with the statutory conditions, and the local authorities were so advised.
Bricklaying
asked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to state how many bricks are laid per man per day in the building of houses as compared with the pre-War figure?
Figures are not available on which any reliable estimate could be given on the point referred to.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken the slightest trouble to find out what was the approximate figure before the War?
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is the simplest thing in the world to get the figures?
I take it that it is the everyday duty of employers to see that the workers perform their work.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House some idea as to the number of bricks laid daily now and the number laid pre-War? And can he not say whether the number is not 1,008 pre-War and 300 to-day?
The Minister has stated that he has not the materials for an answer.
On a point of Order. May I ask whether information of this nature could not easily be obtained, and whether it is not the duty of the Minister in charge to get the information?
I can assure hon. Members opposite that had I inherited any such information I would have given it.
Is it not a fact that the number of bricks to be laid per day by a bricklayer depends entirely on the kind of work he is doing.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the number of bricks laid per day will not probably decrease in proportion to the time that a Socialist Government remains in office?
asked the Minister of Health to what extent brick-laying machines have been introduced in the building industry?
I am informed that experiments have been made in the design and construction of brick-laying machines, but I am not aware that any such machines have been introduced and found practical in the building industry.
As the right hon. Gentleman has been able to obtain a reply to this question, why could he not also give a reply to the previous question on the same subject?
Decontrol, Manchester
asked the Minister of Health if he can state the number of houses decontrolled under the 1923 Act in the Manchester City area, and what has been the increase of rent for such houses; if he is aware that thousands of houses are becoming automatically decontrolled as they become vacant under the 1923 Act, and the owners of such houses are refusing to let them, and in most cases the houses are to be sold with vacant possession; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
I regret that I am at the moment unable to give my hon. Friend the information he desires in regard to Manchester, but I am making inquiries.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the County Court Judge in Manchester has stated the number of evictions up to date since the passing of the Kent Restrictions Act, 1923, and that the number of these evictions is infinitesimal?
I have no information, but I am making inquiries, as I have stated.
This question has nothing whatever to do with evictions.
Tottenham (Almshouses)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a considerable number of alms cottages in Bruce Grove, Tottenham, have been unoccupied during the past two years; and, in view of the serious shortage of houses in that locality, whether he will communicate with the trustees to see whether arrangements could be made to rent these cottages to old couples?
I understand that there are 43 cottages in question; that some of the vacancies have been filled during the last few months and that there are now only six cottages unoccupied. Under the scheme which is now in operation the trustees are less restricted in the choice of occupants than under the terms of the original trusts, and I am informed that they expect shortly to be able to find suitable occupants within the terms of the scheme for the vacant cottages.
Lodging Houses
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to a coroner's inquest held at Shrewsbury on the 31st of March on the death of a man at a public lodging-house and the observations by the coroner that the house was not registered and that inspection had passed from the police to the Ministry of Health; and if he contemplates any change in the existing regulations?
My attention has not previously been drawn to this case. The supervision of common lodging-houses is a matter for the local authority, and I am communicating with the town council on the matter.
British Empire Exhibition (Public Health)
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the terms of a circular recently issued by the British Empire Exhibition authorities at Wembley, dealing with the question of welfare of exhibitors' staff, in which it is stated that it is not intended to provide free lavatory accommodation for the exhibitors' assistants, male and female, in an exhibition open from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. on six days of the week; and whether he will take steps to have the arrangements examined by an inspector of the Ministry in order to secure the provision of satisfactory accommodation?
My attention had not previously been drawn to this matter, and I am investigating it.
In view of the urgency of the matter will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to impress on the authorities the necessity of having proper provision made?
I am now dealing with the matter.
Will the Debate on the Motion to provide more money for the Wembley Exhibition be taken at a reasonable hour, go as to permit that the matter may be discussed?
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the British Empire Exhibition authorities have let out to a contractor the whole supply of lavatories for the public at this exhibition; and that it is proposed that there shall not be any free lavatories of any kind provided for the public either in the exhibition, the grounds, or the stadium; and, considering the thousands of the public who will visit this exhibition, whether he will, in the interest of public health, cause inquiries to be made into the matter forthwith?
I am making enquiries into the matter.
As the Exhibition is to be opened on 23rd April, can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to give an answer to the question?
I will deal with it as rapidly as possible, even although it is within the time in which I am awaiting a reply.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Wembley Exhibition is under the control of the local sanitary authority or under the direct control of the Ministry of Health?
May I repeat my question to the Leader of the House—Will he see that we have an opportunity of discussing the Resolution on the Paper about the Wembley Exhibition?
In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans, I understand that, as far as the matter referred to in the question is concerned, it is under the Ministry of Health.
Can I have an answer to my question?
It would be helpful, and it is essential, as we are not our own masters, to have some notice of questions on business. I will refer later to the point raised.
National Health Insurance (Sickness Benefit)
asked the Minister of Health whether, seeing that under the National Health Insurance Act only seven days' pay is granted for ten days' sickness, he will state why, in the case of sickness of such duration, the commencement of payment cannot be dated from the first day of illness?
Under the Act, sickness benefit is only payable from the fourth day of incapacity, but any approved society which is found on valuation to have a disposable surplus after making provision for the normal benefits to which its members are entitled, may out of such surplus provide, as an additional benefit, for the payment of sickness benefit from the first day of incapacity. Out of 6,659 societies and branches in England which had a disposable surplus on the first valuation, only 66, however, elected to adopt this form of additional benefit. An increase of the weekly contribution would be necessary in order to place societies in a position to pay benefit from the first day otherwise than by recourse to their surplus funds.
Poor Rates
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that in the 83 county boroughs the poor rate, including overseers, varies from 1s. 3d. in the £ at Bournemouth to 9s. 5d. in the West Ham area; that in 88 boroughs the poor rate, including overseers, varies from 1s. in the £ at Buxton to 4s. 11d. at Hartlepool; that in 47 urban district council areas the poor rate, including overseers, varies from 1s. 2½d. in the £ at Epsom to 9s. 4¾d. at Aberdare; and if the Government intend bringing about a better system of rating?
Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the first place referred to has a most efficient government, and no Socialist taint whatever?
I am aware of the variations in the amount of the poor rate in the areas referred to by my hon. Friend. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to the answer which I gave on the 31st March in reply to the hon. Member for Bedwellty.
Is it not a fact that all these low rated places are represented by Conservatives?
I can only repeat the information I have given.
West Ham Guardians (Loans)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the West Ham Board of Guardians have borrowed £300,000 at 6 per cent., £200,000 at 5 per cent., £200,000 at 4¾ per cent., and £300,000 at 4¾ per cent.; that by 31st March, 1924, the West Ham Guardians had repaid £100,000 of principal and £51,225 interest; that the total interest payable on loans from the commencement to 31st March, 1931, when the last of the principal will be repaid, amounts to £225,872; that the West Ham Board of Guardians will have to make another application for a new loan of £400,000 to pay the principal and interest now due on the loans already borrowed; that, in addition to the sum already borrowed, an extra million has been paid out of the rates for outdoor relief for men and women who are out of employment; and that the guardians are keeping well within the Mond relief scale with the exception of rent allowance; and if he is prepared to make them a grant in aid?
I am aware of the financial position of the West Ham Board of Guardians. With regard to the last part, I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Deputy-Leader of the House on the 27th March in reply to a similar question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is very painful to myself and many others to receive these replies about the grants in aid? Is he aware that this is part and parcel of the Labour programme, and that past Governments have recognised this principle for the last 50 years, within my own knowledge?
rose —
On a point of Order. [ Interruption. ], Opposite are the Gentlemen of England.
The hon. Member rose to a point of Order. Will he please state it?
My point of Order is this, that there are two hon. Members opposite who have been up eight times each, to put questions. You ruled me out when we were in Opposition, because I had put five questions in one forenoon.
When the hon. Member occupies this place, I shall watch him with interest.
Tottenham Board of Guardians
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Edmonton Board of Guardians has decided to transfer their Tottenham district office to Snell's Park, Edmonton; that this will cause great inconvenience to Tottenham people who are compelled to seek assistance of the guardians, and particularly to old people, widows with young children, cripples, persons seeking medical orders, and expectant mothers; and if he will ascertain for what reason this change is being made?
I am aware of the decision of the Edmonton Guardians. The new arrangements will, I am informed, conduce to greater efficiency and economy in the cost of offices, and I have not received any complaint that inconvenience is likely to be caused by the change.
Tuberculosis (After-Care Colonies)
asked the Minister of Health the number of after-care colonies for men and women who have been through sanatoria for tuberculosis now in existence; the number of cases which they have accommodated; and what the result of the establishment of such colonies has been?
There are at present three after-care colonies, accommodating some 100 married men and their families and 80 single men. I am aware also of two non-residential employment centres and one centre partly non-residential. I am advised that establishments of this kind must be regarded as still in the experimental stage, though the results so-far obtained are hopeful.
Milk Advisory Committee
asked the Minister of Health whether, when he is considering the desirability of adding to the Milk Advisory Committee representatives of workers in the dairy industry and of consumers, he will arrange for the appointment of a woman with dairying experience and for another with the practical knowledge of a housewife?
I will confer with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture on the hon. Member's suggestion.
Serpentine (Motor Boats)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether, in view of the successful venture inaugurated by the London County Council, he will consider the provision of a small motor boat to ply for hire on the Serpentine?
The water in the London County Council parks is comparatively shallow, whereas the Serpentine is 14 feet deep in places, and I am therefore not prepared to risk the danger to other users of the Serpentine by permitting motor boats to ply for hire thereon.
Army Pharmacists
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the Report of the Committee appointed by the Army Council to consider the employment of pharmacists in the Army in connection with the provision, distribution and dispensing of medical and surgical supplies in peace and war and to make recommendations regarding their organisation and status; and whether, in view of the promise by the Army Council, in their letter of the 29th September, 1923, addressed to the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, that they will arrange for the Report to be laid before Parliament should the latter express a desire for its publication, he will arrange for the Report to be so laid before Parliament?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the latter part, I have hitherto been inclined to think that this Report, which deals with a somewhat technical subject, would not be widely read, but in view of the desire expressed by Members I will take up the question of its publication.
Scotland
Seed Potatoes and Oats
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that the potato-planting season in the Highlands and Islands will soon be over, he will state how the recent grant of £100,000 for seed potatoes and oats has been expended; and whether he can state the amount given to the Western Isles and the other Highland districts?
The cost of the scheme cannot yet be stated. A total of some 4,000 tons of oats and 3,300 tons of potatoes have been applied for to date, of which 645 tons of oats and 1,205 tons of potatoes were for the Western Isles.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether all these potatoes have a certificate of purity accompanying them?
What guarantee is there to the purchaser of these seeds that they are in fact what the certificates make them out to be?
That is the ninth supplementary to-day.
Emigration
asked the Secretary for Scotland how many people have left the Western Isles Division as emigrants for overseas during the years 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923; how many of these were males; and what is the percentage of the male population that has emigrated during those years?
The passenger lists sent to the Board of Trade do not enable me to state the numbers of emigrants from the Western Isles during the years specified. In the case of two vessels, however, which left ports in the Western Isles in April, 1923, the lists show that there were 576 emigrants to Canada on board, of whom 423 were males.
Parish Councils (Loans)
asked the Secretary for Scotland the amount of the sums raised by way of loan by parish councils to meet their liabilities in carrying out the provisions of the Poor Law Emergency Provisions (Scotland) Act, 1921?
Loans amounting to £2,723,160 have been sanctioned in respect of 43 parishes. I have no information as to the sums actually borrowed.
Mail Service (Western Isles)
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of repeated representations made to him, he has completed his investigations into the Western Isles mail service; and, if so, will he now make a statement as to the improvements proposed to be made in order to alleviate the inconvenience caused to the traders and inhabitants under the present system?
As I informed the hon. Member on the 7th of March, I shall be happy to give consideration to any suggestions which he may put forward. I may say, however, that a full inquiry has been made in regard to the services within the Islands, and that the question as to how far any alterations can be justified is at present being examined. I will let the hon. Member know the result.
May I ask if, before any contract is signed with Messrs. MacBrayne's Company, an opportunity will be given to this House to discuss the whole question?
Will the question of the re-settlement of the MacBrayne contract come up before the House?
I could not answer that question.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Post Office is the one administrative Department concerned with this contract, and will he see that the House is given an opportunity of discussing the contract?
I shall be pleased to look into the matter.
Horncliffe Post Office, Berwick
asked the Postmaster-General if it is proposed to close Horncliffe Post Office, Berwick; if he is aware that local opinion is against any such proposal, as great inconvenience will be caused if the existing facilities are withdrawn; and will he inquire into the matter and, in view of local opinion, retain the existing facilities?
I am having inquiry made and will write to the hon. Member.
Wireless Broadcasting, Whitehaven
asked the Postmaster-General if he has received representations from a large number of wireless enthusiasts resident in the White-haven area petitioning for the establishment of a wireless broadcasting relay station at Whitehaven; and if, having regard to the fact that this is an isolated district, the nearest broadcasting stations being Manchester, Newcastle, and Glasgow, and that broadcasting from these to the Whitehaven area is seriously disturbed by the blast furnace gas cleaning plant at Workington, he will now give favourable consideration to the present appeal, which would lead to a very considerable extension of this service?
Applications have been received for the establishment of broadcasting relay stations at Whitehaven and other towns. I am consulting the Broadcasting Board on the question whether further relay stations beyond those already authorised should be established, and, if so, at what towns.
Arising out of that reply, may I intimate to my right hon. Friend that it will not be at all necessary to remove the blast furnaces at Workington in order to facilitate the suggested extension of broadcasting to Whitehaven?
University Forestry Schools
asked the right hon. Member for Tiverton, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, if he can give the House information as to the sums provided from the university chests of Oxford, Cambridge and Edinburgh for their forestry schools, either in the form of capital grants or annual expenditure during the last five years; and if he will state what sums have been granted during the same period to the forestry departments of the three universities from public funds?
With regard to the first part of the question, the Commissioners are not in possession of information in the form requested, and a reply cannot be given without reference to the universities concerned. With regard to the second part, the total grants for forestry education made from public funds have amounted during the last five years to the following sums: Oxford and Cambridge Universities, £2,000 each, in annual instalments; Edinburgh, £7,000, in one payment, made in 1920.
Tinned Salmon (Imports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what were the imports of tinned salmon from Canada and Japan to Great Britain, respectively, in the year 1913 and in the year 1923?
The imports into the United Kingdom of canned salmon consigned from Canada amounted to 275,362 cwts., valued at £900,068, in 1913, and 107,544 cwts., valued at £613,892, in 1923. The corresponding consignments from Japan amounted to 28,925 cwts., valued at £81,289, in 1913, and 12,030 cwts., valued at £71,730, in 1923.
Roads (Construction)
asked the Minister of Labour how much the Government are providing from the Exchequer, apart from motor taxes, for grants to local authorities in the year 1924–25 for the construction and reconstruction of roads?
I have been asked to reply. In view of the fact that the motor taxes, subject to certain Statutory deductions, are assigned to the maintenance and construction of roads and bridges, no special Exchequer grants are made for this purpose, apart from certain unemployment road schemes, which are the subject of assistance by the Unemployment Grants Committee or the Scottish Office.
In view of the severe unemployment, will the Minister recom- mend to the Government that grants should be made from the Exchequer towards the Road Fund?
Shipbuilding Trade Dispute
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister if the Government propose to set up an Industrial Court to consider the serious position created by the threatened lock-out in the shipbuilding trade, resulting from, the unofficial strike at Southampton?
I have been asked to reply. I am informed that, following the ballot taken yesterday and a further meeting this afternoon between the Shipbuilding Employers' Federation arid the unions, instructions are being issued to> suspend the lock-out notices until Friday night, in order that the men may have an opportunity of returning to work, in accordance with instructions which have been issued by their executives. In the circumstances, I do not think it desirable to say more at the present time.
Will the Minister of Labour take steps to try to s cure that these men will receive something like a living wage, and at least an approximation to the wages paid in all other shipbuilding and engineering centres throughout the country?
The Minister of Labour has no power to make concessions as to wages, or give instructions, or in any way influence wages. It is a popular misconception that such a power resides in him.
Is there no power in one or other of the Government Departments to see that in Admiralty contracts, at least, and in Government contracts of one kind and another, the Fair Wages Clause should be observed?
That question should be put down.
In the event of the lock-out taking place after Friday, is the Minister prepared to extend insurance benefits to the men locked out by the employers?
As the Minister is giving instructions to delay the lock-out, will he undertake to give instructions to delay a strike in similar circumstances?
I wish to ask the Minister of Labour—in fact I wish to put the question to the Prime Minister—if it is not within the bounds of possibility, in the event of a strike, or rather a lockout, because it is going to be a lock-out in all probability—for the Government to tell those who, at the moment, own and control the shipyards that if there is a look-out, the Government are going to take the job out of their hands?
German Reparation (Expert Committees' Reports)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to lay the Reports of the Expert Committees recently appointed by the Reparations Commission?
I hope to receive the Reports to-night, and steps will be taken at once to present them to the House.
Treaty of Lausanne (Attitude of Dominions)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken by His Majesty's Government to secure the consent of the Dominions to the publication of papers regarding their acceptance of the obligations contained in the Treaty of Lausanne; whether consent was asked for by cable, and on what dates; what replies, if any, have been received; and, in view of Mr. MacKenzie King's statement in the Canadian House of Commons yesterday that he would welcome publication, can His Majesty's Government now undertake to lay the papers concerned?
When the Prime Minister was pressed for the laying of all papers in connection with the Treaty of Lausanne, he took steps to communicate with the whole of the Dominions concerned. I am pleased to say replies have been received from them all and, having regard to the objection to publication by some of the Dominions and to the fact that the whole series would have to be laid if the position were to be made clear, His Majesty's Government are unable to lay the papers.
Business of the House
May I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House if the business announced for to-morrow still stands, or if any changes are in contemplation?
I should like, first, 10 say that we are asking for the suspension of the Eleven O'clock Rule to-night merely to secure the Second Reading of the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill and the Committee stage of the Money Resolution required before the Committee stage of that Bill can be taken.
To-morrow, we propose to put down for the first Order the remaining stages of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 3) Bill, in order that it may be considered in another place and receive the Royal Assent in good time. As second Order we propose to put down the Supplementary Estimate which requires to be passed if the House decides to grant railway facilities to hon. Members. The remaining Orders which we propose to put down for to-morrow are the following:
May I ask whether there is, in fact, any Supplementary Estimate for this purpose at present before the House? I am informed that there is not, but, if there is, may I appeal for a little more time?
The Paper will be obtainable in the Vote Office about 6 o'clock, and it will contain a statement substantially similar to that made some weeks ago by the Prime Minister.
May I ask if to-morrow, on the Second Reading of the Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Bill, the Government will be prepared to state their policy with regard to the new State assistance? The question is to be raised directly' on an Amendment on the Order Paper, and I would like to ask whether the Government will be prepared to declare then what their policy is to be?
My right hon. Friend will, of course, make a statement.
In view of the great interest taken in the Measure, will the right hon. Gentleman take the Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Bill on some other occasion rather than late to-morrow night?
I am sorry that it is not possible to place it earlier on the Paper.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill [ Lords ] and in Committee on Treaty of Peace (Turkey) [Expenses] be exempted at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Clynes. ]
Notices of Motion
Productive Resources and Distribution
On this day three weeks, to call attention to the inadequate use made of productive resources and the inefficiency of distribution, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Montague. ]
Naval Pensions
On this day three weeks, to call attention to certain naval pensions, and to move a Resolution.—[ Major Sir B. Falle. ]
Agriculture
On this day three weeks, to call attention to the position of agriculture, with special reference to corn growing, and to move a Resolution.—[ Major Wheler. ]
Bills Reported
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Watford Extension) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Central London and Metropolitan District Railway Companies Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Motorways
I beg to move,
The Bill is a purely public Bill. Its object is quite general. It is to provide a simple, expeditious, and economical machinery for authorising motorways in any part of the country. As a matter of fact, the Coventry-Salford Road is the only one that has yet been projected, and for that reason I am going to deal with that road in my explanatory remarks. In the area of that road, one-third of the total population of England is located. To proceed by private Bill would have involved both prohibitive cost and great delay. It would have been impossible to begin the construction of the road before the autumn of next year. If, on the other hand, the House approves of the Bill and facilities are given, for it, it will be possible to make an early start, and from the point of view of unemployment an early start is highly important. It is calculated that if the road is made 40,000 persons will directly and indirectly be given employment for a period of from two to three years, and I feel sure that the House will regard that as a matter of great importance. What is proposed is a broad road, wide enough for four lines of traffic, with proper foundations and a, suitable surface, with no sharp curves and no steep gradients. The result will be to relieve existing roads, not made for the traffic that they have to carry, of the excessive wear and tear which is becoming a burden both to the rates and to the Road Fund, and to relieve them also of the congestion which is so great that the roads at present can hardly contain the traffic.
The case for the Bill is made upon existing facts familiar to all us. To-day, nearly the whole of our road traffic is mechanical. The House knows it, and, though statistics are available, they are superfluous. The recent Report of the Ministry of Transport shows that the development of motor traffic has been something extraordinary. On a road near Warrington it has risen from 300 tons a day in 1911 to between 8,000 and 9,000 tons a day in 1922. Of the total traffic of the country, over 90 per cent. is motor traffic. It has increased from 1911 to 1922 at a ratio of about 22 per cent, per annum. Under those circumstances, it is not unnatural that the cost of road maintenance has become prohibitive. At a deputation to the Minister of Transport a few weeks ago the Mayor of Newcastle-under-Lyme said that the cost in Staffordshire had risen recently from £82 per mile to £376 per mile. To-day the total of road maintenance for the whole country is £50,000,000. To put our classified roads into a condition to carry the traffic that they have to bear, it is said, on estimates that have been made, that the cost would be £500,000,000.
The broad fact of this rapid increase of motor traffic is the fundamental case for the proposal of the Bill. With such traffic growing as it is and our roads as they are, it is certain that a large proportion must necessarily transfer itself from the existing roads to a new road made suitable for motor traffic. And, of course, traffic facilities always breed traffic. That has been the history of railway enterprise for 100 years. Two resultant advantages are to be noted. Agricultural perishable produce will have an easy means of getting to market and the making of such a road is bound to bring industrial development along its route.
In addition to those broad facts known generally to the Whole House, there are actual figures in regard to the road that is proposed from Coventry to Salford. In September last, the promoters took a census, showing that on the existing roads there was a traffic, moving roughly parallel to the proposed road, amounting to 13,500 tons. By 1928, when it is hoped that the road may be ready if it is authorised, on the annual ratio of increase of 22 per cent., that traffic will have reached the astonishing figure of over 35,000 tons, and it is obvious that a large proportion of that will transfer itself to the new motorway. Secondly, it is plain that with a properly constructed motorway, with suitable surface, sufficient width, no sharp curves and no steep gradients, a saving of money will result to every motor owner who uses it. Calculations, based partly on estimates and partly on actual experiments, show, in the promoters' opinion, that there will be a saving to motor owners, who use the proposed road as compared with ordinary roads, of between ¾d. and 1d. per ton mile. It is proposed that a toll of ¼d. per ton mile should be chargeable. The net difference will be a saving to motor owners of between ½d. and 3¾. per ton mile.
The cost of the road has been worked out in very close detail. Detailed surveys have been made throughout, a number of provisional contracts for land purchase have been made, and the figure is £6,126,000. The promoters have also got out close estimates of the expenditure on maintenance that will be necessary when the road is running. On the facts that I have stated, it is estimated by the promoters that there will be a sufficient net profit made out of the tolls and other receipts of the company running the road to pay sinking fund and interest on half the capital required and allow a dividend on the other half, in the form of ordinary shares, of 2 per cent. in 1928, the first year of working, 4 per cent. in the next year, and 7 per cent. in the year following. There will, of course, it is suggested, be powers to the nation at any time, if it be thought right, to take over the road for public ownership. The promoters of the scheme are partly public-spirited men with knowledge both of roads and mechanical traffic, like Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, and partly great concerns like Armstrong, Whitworth and Company, who have a knowledge of engineering problems and industrial needs. It is believed that there will be no adverse effect upon the railways.
One word as to procedure. The Bill does not propose to commit the House to any particular scheme. It provides for the consideration of any application by a Statutory Joint Committee of the two Houses, and, on the recommendation of that Committee, for the making of a Statutory Order having legislative effect. In truth the Bill is one asking for effective investigation, and for that, in my judgment, a conclusive case has been made out. It is temporary in character lasting only as long as the Unemployment Act of 1920. If it is passed, it is hoped that the Government will give every facility for its passage, and make it a Government Measure. The passing of the Bill depends on that possibility, and I trust the Government may see their way to take that course. The best procedure in regard to the making of Orders can be discussed if and when the Bill reaches the Committee stage. Models of the proposed motorway will be placed in a Committee Room upstairs to-morrow and Friday, and I hope hon. Members will go to see them as an engineer will be in attendance to give explanations to any hon. Member who desires to have them.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Leslie Scott, Mr. W. M. Adamson, Captain Eden, Lieut.-Colonel Horlick, Mr. Lamb, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Remer, Mr. W. E. Robinson, Mr. Sitch, Sir A. Steel-Maitland, and Mr. Tillett.
Motorways Bill
"to facilitate the construction of motorways, and the granting of powers in relation to such ways, and to traffic thereon," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 106.]
Distressed Tenants
I beg to move, In the course of the last week many attempts have been made to deal with this very thorny subject. It has to be borne in mind that the problem of the evicted tenants differs in two respects from the problems we had to deal with before the War, because three years of unemployment have depleted the savings of poor people. In the second place, a man who loses his house to-day has no alternative accommodation, and these are two fundamental differences. I remember accompanying the Minister of Health when he was in a position of greater freedom and less responsibility, and I have seen some of the scenes connected with evictions in Glasgow, and they are enough to impress deeply any observer. But it is not necessary to go to Glasgow to understand what it means for a man to be put out of his house. Within half a mile of the Chair you occupy, Mr. Speaker, and within 50 or 60 yards of Buckingham Palace, there are 27 families who have lost their homes and who are and have been living, deprived of the ordinary amenities of a house, in the casual ward. We have heard many moving and powerful speeches based upon sincerity and experience from Members above the Gangway, but I think we may claim that we are not without a sense of sympathy in these cases, and that we are also impressed with the burden and the responsibility we bear in relation to them.
Three proposals have been put forward to give the unemployed tenant security. The first was contained in Clause 1 of the Government Bill, and that proposed to lay the burden upon the shoulders of certain persons, rich and poor alike, selected haphazard. That proposal could not be defended, and would not be defended, as it stood in the Bill even by hon. Members above the Gangway. The second proposal was that directions should foe given to the tenant to apply to the guardians, and, if he failed in his application, no further help was to be given to him. That seemed to be a so-called protection that may be at once described as delusive. The third proposal I make to-day, and in the preparation of it I am grateful to acknowledge the assistance of hon. Members of this House and public officials versed in local administration in England and Scotland. It is based upon the idea of giving the tenant security. That must be the basis of a solution of this problem. The tenant J is to be provided with a certificate, and armed with this in Court he is immune from eviction, and he is also immune from having an eviction order made against him.
I now come to the question as to who should grant such a certificate. In this matter we have no choice. The local Poor Law authority alone is qualified both to investigate the resources of the applicant and to supplement those resources, whether in cash or kind, to a sufficient degree to enable him to retain his home. Accordingly, in Clause 2 the local Poor Law authority is authorised to grant such a certificate stating that they have made themselves responsible for the shelter and providing housing room for the applicant and his dependants. The third Clause proposes something which local authorities are already doing. There may be many exceptions, but my information is that the local authorities are already doing it. The point is, what are we to do with the local authorities who, because of poverty, reluctance, or parsimony, refuse the granting of such a certificate? It is proposed that the local authority should be called upon to forward to the Health Ministry in Scotland or England copies of the certificates that they have granted, and then, according to regulations which would take into account the disbursements they have made, the local authority would be able to claim a refund of a part of the money which they have spent.
There the Bill stops, because that is the limit of a private Member's privileges in this House. It is true that if this Bill be passed no further legislation is necessary in this matter. The Bill itself can be fertilised by an Estimate laid before the House by the Government and approved by this House. That responsibility cannot be assumed by Members of this House as private Members, and it is alone in the power of Ministers of the Crown to recommend grants of public money. It is open to question whether we shall be able to open the Treasury box, but I think we can provide a key by which the Government can open it. I admit this is a question which requires grave consideration, but I think we ought to do it for two reasons. The first is that, if this evil is widespread and growing—we have no figures and that is the great misfortune of this case—and if that be the case, then it requires an urgent and immediate remedy, and I think this is the only remedy. My second reason is that in any case such a grant, if made by the Government, would only anticipate, I hope, by a short time a redistribution of the central and local burdens which is long overdue. I commend this Bill to the consideration of the Government and the House.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Captain Wedgwood Benn, Mr. Masterman, Captain Berkeley, Mr. Briant, Sir George McCrae, Mr. Foot, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
Distressed Tenants Bill,
"to prohibit the eviction of distressed tenants, and to make provision as to claims for reimbursement by local authorities affected," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]
Public Petitions Committee
First Report brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Law with respect to the carriage of goods by sea." [Carriage of Goods by Sea Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm the acquisition by the Urban District Councils of Aberdare and Mountain Ash of the Aberdare Canal; and for other purposes." [Aberdare Canal Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the King's Lynn Docks and Railway Company with reference to the leasing of warehouses and other premises; and for other purposes." [King's Lynn Docks and Railway Bill [ Lords. ]
Sittings of Parliament,—That they propose that the Joint Committee, to consider the desirability of altering the customary period of the Parliamentary Session and the incidental changes necessary thereto, do meet in Committee Room A, on Thursday the 8th of May next, at Twelve o'clock.
Aberdare Canal Bill [ Lords ],
King's Lynn Docks and Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Sittings of Parliament
So much of the Lords Message as relates to the time and place of meeting of the Joint Committee considered.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[ Mr. Spoor. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Standing Orders
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:
1. "That, in the case of the Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Corporations (Bridge), Petition for leave to deposit a Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to deposit their Petition for a Bill."
2. "That, in the case of the Southern Railway Bill, Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit."
Resolutions agreed to.
Orders of the Day
Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Bill [Lords]
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [1 st April ], "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Which Amendment was, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add, instead thereof, the words
"this House declines to proceed with the Second Reading of this Bill until it has received a definite statement from His Majesty's Government as to whether the Dominions and India have been fully informed of the liabilities in which the Empire must be involved by the guarantee of the demilitarised zones on both sides of the Straits contained in Article 18 of the Straits Convention annexed to the Treaty, and as to whether the Dominions and India are prepared to ratify the Treaty with the Straits Convention."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir Edward Grigg. ]
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
I would not have ventured to speak in a Debate of this magnitude, and claim the indulgence of the House for my first speech, had it not been for the fact that I spent some five years of my life prior to and during the War in the Near East, including some few months in the interior of Asia Minor, and I have also had the good fortune to have been in charge of the Intelligence Branch of the Army in the Black Sea some six months immediately subsequent to the signing of the Armistice, and naturally I take a great interest in the matters arising in this Debate. Nor could I have avoided pleading some small measure of experience in regard to the matters which have been dealt with in the Treaty. It has been agreed on all sides that this Treaty is lacking in many respects, but I would with diffidence submit that, taking into consideration the circumstances under which this Treaty was signed and drawn up, a good deal of credit is due to those who negotiated it on our behalf. The Turks were no longer prostrate after their defeat. They entered into the Treaty negotiations, I believe, as equals, and, in fact, claimed to be the victors. In view of these circumstances, with all due respect, I main- tain that we have done very well out of this Treaty. At any rate, we have put a stop to a state of war which has been in existence for eight years.
I wish to make one or two remarks in connection with the question of the Minority Clauses. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the combined English Universities (Mr. Fisher) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Ramsay Muir), during the Debate which took place on 1st April, spoke at some length on this question of the Minority Clauses of the Treaty. I would like to try to allay their fears, for both of them pointed out that they considered these Clauses most inadequate and said that they did not at all meet the case, with regard to protecting the various minorities in the Turkish Empire. I submit that an astonishing change has come over Turkey with the arrival of the sovereign Turkish State. It is to me astounding that at one fell swoop the Turkish people should have done away with the Sultan and the Caliphate, have destroyed a theocracy, and have started trying to build up a Sovereign State according to Western ideals. For these reasons alone a great many of the causes of these appalling catastrophes occasioned by the massacres have been done away with. Most of the historical causes appear to have disappeared automatically. The period of these disturbances can be divided into three: these peoples lived together in a considerable amount of amity prior at any rate to 1860. Then in 1876 the Sultan Abdul Hamid came to the throne of Turkey and in 1877–78 was the Russo-Turkish War. Russia then definitely decided, in my opinion, to go for the Straits and she determined to use every means in her power to that end.
The hon. and gallant Member for Kennington (Lieut.-Colonel T. Williams) pointed out on 1st April how Russian intrigue had fomented these disorders. How did that come about? It came about, I submit, by stirring up the Armenians who were inside the Russian borders to preach independence to their brethren across the Turkish frontier, to instigate by every means in their power any plans which might lead to the furtherance of their aims, and to back up all the revolutionary societies to create trouble in Turkey. On the other hand, you had a despot obsessed with the idea of assassination, rarely appearing in public, and surrounded by a. crowd of adventurers making as much as they possibly could out of him and his followers. In his palace alone I believe he had over 400 spies. It shows the atmosphere that existed. Outside were under paid or almost unpaid officials who had to depend for their livelihood1 practically on what they could extort from the unfortunate people under them. It seems to me these two causes combined brought into effect these terrible massacres.
The Sultan, irritated, spurred on almost by these representations from outside, by the Treaty of San Stefano, by the Treaty of Berlin, and by subsequent representations made to him by the great Powers, seized on the unfortunate Armenians as the people on whom to vent his spite. That cause has gone, I am glad to say. In the middle of that period in 1894, 1895 and 1896 you had these terrible massacres, and there was another terrible massacre shortly after the Committee of Union and Progress came into power in 1909. The second period was that of the Great War. The massacres at that time occurred for slightly different reasons. You still had the evil godmother in Russia, but during the Russian advance on Erzerum and subsequent attacks on that town the Turks were very much harassed, both by actual attacks on their lines of communication and also by the incessant work of Armenian agents and spies, in all their military operations. They were practically, although fighting in their own Empire, carrying on war in a hostile country. That is enough to irritate anyone, let alone the people of the somewhat barbaric notions of the Turks. I do not for one moment wish the House to believe that I back up the Turks in any way in these appalling atrocities, but that was one of the leading factors in them. It gave one of the most unscrupulous men who ever lived, Enver Pasha, an opportunity for which I believe he had been looking. The Committee of Union and Progress issued that order for the deportation of the Armenian people to distant centres of their Empire. I have seen what purported to be a copy of that order. There were no instructions given as to their rationing en route. There were no instructions of any sort except that they had to go to these various places. Of course it meant death in most cases by starvation. Enver Pasha knew it well. I tried to ascertain what was the real cause of this attempted destruction of the people. I have come to the conclusion that his idea was a great Moslem Empire embracing the whole of Northern Africa, Arabia, Persia, India and right across Central Asia. Those people had to be got rid of. That, I submit, with all due deference, was one of the reasons why those terrible massacres occurred during the Great War. The third period was a short one and started with the Greek occupation of Smyrna Vilayet and the subsequent fighting there. That also had disappeared, as also has the situation caused by the ambition of Enver. The situation of Turkey prior to the occupation of Smyrna by the Greek forces appears to me to have been that of a power smashed by a war and acknowledging defeat, and chiefly defeat at the hands of Great Britain, obstructing by all the means in their power. They are wonderful obstructionists too. As an example of this obstruction certain generals had to be dismissed because they refused to forward the breach blocks of guns and the bolts of rifles and machine guns as quickly as might be. Every sort of excuse was made, namely, that of the state of the roads and winter conditions, but no really serious operation was contemplated, and so we had circumstances in which the Turkish nation prepared to make great sacrifices for they had confidence in the justice and in the war aims of the Allies. Then what occurred? Smyrna was occupied and the whole situation changed.
This decision, I submit, appeared to be neither just nor politic. It handed over to a hereditary enemy the second city of a great Empire. Whatever the Turks were, they were a great Empire, and this was a city through which all the exports of Anatolia had passed for centuries. The whole lie of the land, and the mountains and rivers, point towards Smyrna, and not even the Bagdad Railway subsidised as it was could take away that trade by attempting to cross those hills and rivers. This decision caused a great shock throughout the Near East, and this shock reacted on all the peoples of the Black Sea littoral. The Christian minorities, I think, were more scared than anybody, for they knew what most probably would foe the consequence. It seems to me that nothing more likely to lead to war—even if it had been done of malice aforethought—could have been conceived than this occupation of Smyrna by the Greeks. It was certain that there would be war until the last Greek soldier left Asia Minor. I submit that it is not even just on ethnological grounds. Every city on the coast of Asia Minor contained 50 per cent, of Greeks. Why not, therefore, give them all the other coastal cities, Adalia, Ismid, Samsun and Trebizond? Smyrna Vilayet, I submit, however, had more Turks in it than Greeks. I well remember, the day after this information had been imparted to the Turkish Government, an interview which was held with the Turkish Chief of Police in the British Embassy at Pera. This official remarked, when we asked him if he thought there would be trouble: "How can I tell you when you treat us like this?" I do maintain that there would have been serious trouble, even in Constantinople itself, had it not been for the 13·5's of the "Iron Duke" in the Bosphorus Roads. These, I submit, are the causes of these massacres in the past, and I maintain with all sincerity that they have to a very large extent been eradicated. May I be permitted to summarise? The despotism of Abdul Hamid has disappeared. The Russian menace, at any rate temporarily, has also disappeared. The theocratic Government of the Turkish Empire has disappeared. Enver Pasha is dead and Smyrna is again in the hands of the Turks.
With all due deference, I do submit that if we are to have these minorities treated as they ought to be, we do not interfere unduly with the interior economy of the "Turkish people. Let them work out their own salvation, as far as it is possible. If we trust them, and show that we consider they are trying honestly to improve the conditions of their country, and all the people in it, regardless of religion, they are far more likely to carry out these reforms, and live up to our good opinions, than they are if we carry out a policy of cramping them, and telling them we do not believe they are in earnest. Possibly, the handing over of Smyrna to the Greeks might prove to be in the future a blessing in disguise, and be the cause of the Turkish people rising like a Phœnix from the ashes of Anatolia, and once again bring that country back to the state in which it was in the time of our Lord. It was in those days a densely populated country, and the granary of all the nations living round the Mediterranean. Let us hope they will bring it back to that state once more from the desolate ruin it is at the present day.
I understand that the speech we have just heard is the first speech delivered in this House by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down. We can congratulate him upon a very interesting, and a very well-informed speech. It was a contribution which I could not welcome as far as the argument is concerned, but which I certainly welcome as far as the quality and merits of the speech are concerned. I have some sympathy with the Government in the position in which they have been placed by having to put this Treaty through. Although they have no responsibility for it, it would be a very grave responsibility, I fully realise, for them to invite the House of Commons to reject it, and to re-open a condition of war with Turkey. Therefore, any criticisms which I may make upon the Treaty are criticisms which are not in the least directed against the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary, or the Colonial Secretary in the few words I have got to say about the Dominions. But I am bound to enter a protest against two or three aspects of this Treaty, and of the methods by which it was negotiated. First of all, I come to the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend. I understand that Mr. Speaker has ruled that, although there is an Amendment before the House, it is permissible to discuss, not merely the subject matter of the Amendment, but the whole of the Treaty.
I will begin, however, by making some observations about the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend on the subject of the Dominions. I cannot help thinking that the Prime Minister was misinformed as to the position of Canada when he made his statement on the last occasion. I agree there was a question shot at him in the middle of the Debate, and, therefore, he was liable at the moment to be taken off his guard. But there is a very serious discrepancy between his statement and the statement made by the Canadian Prime Minister, and I think it ought to be cleared up. The impression conveyed to the House by the speech of the Prime Minister was, that Canada accepted the, obligations of the Treaty. That is not the statement of the Canadian Prime Minister. I quote from a Reuter report of his speech, which is fairly full. He said: That is much too wide a subject. I am on this very important point. The Dominions very properly said, "We cannot have a repetition of this. We came to your aid when you were discharging an. obligation of honour incurred by the Sovereign of this country, through his representatives, in respect of Belgium, but in future we must be consulted about these obligations."
So that when the Treaties that followed the War were being negotiated, the Dominions and India ware represented at the Conference on equal terms with Great Britain, and on equal terms with any and every other belligerent nation in the world. As my right hon. Friend reminds me, it suddenly developed. When the South African Treaty was negotiated with the Transvaal and Orange Free State, the Dominions were not called into the Conference. It is something which has issued out of the Great War, and I am very glad. It is a strength to the Empire. It binds it. The Dominions feel that they have the same obligations we have, because they were consulted, and they incurred the obligations at the same time that we did. So that their honour is involved, apart from their fidelity to the Empire as a whole. They were present at the Conference. There was not a Clause in any of these Treaties that was not submitted and discussed. What applies to the German Treaty applies to the Austrian Treaty, and also to the Turkish Treaty. At any rate, the Dominions were present at the discussions at Sèvres. They signed the document. They did more than that, and this has an important bearing upon the position of Canada. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down, in common with two or three other Members who have taken part in this Debate, objected very strongly to what was done about Smyrna. Who decided the position of Smyrna? I have heard it suggested that the Foreign Office was not in it; it was something I did. Of course, I am always held responsible, unless things go right, and then it is always somebody else; but, as a matter of fact, the whole question of the territorial claims of the Greeks was referred to an Inter-Allied Commission.
Who represented us there? Two Foreign Office officials—Sir Eyre Crowe and Mr. Harold Nicholson, than whom there are no abler men in the Civil Service of this country, and no better informed men. But who was our chief representative? Sir Robert Borden, Prime Minister of Canada. When we came to the territorial claims of Poland, General Botha represented us. They were not there merely in an ornamental sense. They were not called upon merely to sign documents that were settled for them by representatives of Great Britain. They were actively engaged in the negotiations, and the very point objected to in the Sèvres Treaty was something that was settled for us by Sir Robert Borden with a Foreign Office official in this country France was represented by one of her ablest Foreign Office officials, M. Jules Cambon. It was a Foreign Office decision for better or for worse, but Canada was in it, and when the Sèvres Treaty was settled, Canada was there. It is not the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility, but he is the only man who can give some information. Mr. Mackenzie King says that when you came to discuss a condition of the Sèvres Treaty at Lausanne, Canada and the other Dominions were not even invited to come there.
That is a very grave departure from a sound decision which had been taken, and I think it will have a most disastrous effect upon the unity of the Empire, unless it be made clear that that is not the position taken by the British Government and the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Government of the day, and nobody can give the answer except himself on behalf of Great Britain. Mr. Mackenzie King stated quite clearly in his speech what the position was. He said:
He might have gone beyond that. He quotes Versailles. He quotes Washington. He might also have quoted Sèvres. I think it is a thousand pities. It may well have, I will not say a disastrous effect, but it may well have an injurious effect on the relations between the Dominions and ourselves which may at any moment become difficult, for reasons which it is not advisable for us to enter into at the present moment, especially when you consider the position of a Dominion like Canada. It is a grave misfortune that the Dominions were not included in the final discussion of the Treaty with Turkey, seeing that it was part of the settlement of the Great War in which they sent a million of men to our aid. There is another departure, which looks insignificant in this Treaty as compared with previous Treaties, and I say frankly I do not like it and I regret it. In all the other Treaties the English language and the French language were treated on equal terms. Sometimes the Treaty was drafted in English and translated into French, but the final document was in English and in French. The English language was put in the same place diplomatically as the French language. We have gone back upon that position. This Treaty is written and signed in the French language, and the English copy is purely a translation. That is bad. It is a misfortune; it is a mistake. I think it is more than that; it is significant of the fact that we have rather gone back in authority, influence and prestige in our dealings with foreign Powers.
We had to fight it out at Versailles and Paris. I cannot say that M. Clemenceau wished it, but naturally he put the case for the precedence of the French language as a medium of diplomatic expression. America and ourselves pointed out that the French language was the language of diplomacy merely in Europe, and that it had never been so, for instance, in the Pacific. When you come to a settlement in Asia, the English, interests there are greater even than the French. Although it may not seem an important matter, it is important. Having fought that out, having got over the initial prejudices, having established the equality of the English language as the language of diplomacy, I think it was a surrender on the part of our representatives to make English purely a matter of translation like any other language when you come to negotiate a treaty after a war where practically the whole burden, substantially the whole burden of victory was cast upon the British Empire. The Turkish war was a war in which British troops were engaged, British expenditure, British cost, British lives. The contribution of other countries was comparatively insignificant. It was, in the main, a British victory, and when you came to settle it the British language is merely a translation and the French achieve a position of supremacy. These things are more important than they appear on the face of them when you come to deal with these great matters of prestige in the East, and I regret it. I felt bound to call attention to this, because I profoundly regret that there has been a departure.
Now I come to the Treaty itself. I think it is a deplorable Treaty. It is a Treaty which might have been signed by a vanquished Power, so far as British interests are concerned. Take the question of Capitulations. We have surrendered in Capitulations something that we had before the War, something we had had for generations before the War, something that was the only constant protection of the lives, the liberty and the property of the British trader in Turkey. The surrender of Capitulations will hamper British trade; it will shake confidence. The trader will be afraid to invest his capital when he knows that the interpretation of contracts will depend exclusively upon a Turkish Court. I think it was a sad surrender. The hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester (Lieut.-Colonel Horlick) talked about Smyrna, but this was something that we had. The Capitulations we have had for certainly very nearly two centuries, as someone pointed out. This is getting rid of something we have had, I think, for hundreds of years, certainly for scores of years before the War, and which were the only real protection for British trade. With regard to the Christian minorities, there is no protection for them; none! It is a paper protection. The Capitulations were a certain protection, and these are gone. There was a tribunal then. What is there now to protect the Christian minorities except this paper? We are even paying an indemnity under this Bill. The Turks destroyed British property, and there is no claim for that. There is to be no compensation for property that is destroyed, but we have to pay for the two ships taken at the beginning of the War! We must pay the indemnity. That is part of the recognition which Lord Curzon promised.
But a much more serious matter is the Straits. The closing of the Straits was the cause of the War. We had treaties with Turkey. She was to be neutral, nay, she was to be friendly. So far as paper was concerned, there was every guarantee that British ships were to be allowed to pass in and out of the Straits. What more have you got now? The War was a war caused because Turkey permitted a German man-of-war to enter the Straits. When we pursued it, the door was slammed in the face of the Fleet of the country that had saved Turkey from destruction twice. What is the guarantee we have? Demilitarised zones! What does it mean? They are narrowed down. With modern artillery, they could hit anything in the Straits from outside. It was not the forts that stopped our getting in; it was mines. Forts are only a trap, they are a mark. Mobile artillery can move up, as is pointed out in a Turkish paper of which someone has been good enough to make a translation for me. There is a Turkish newspaper in Constantinople which gives the reasons why Turkey should accept the Straits Convention. It points out that it is no good. It points out that it does not prevent Turkey closing the Straits. The Marmora they have still got. There are plenty of peninsulas there which will make first-class bases for artillery, for air fleets, and there are bases there for submarines. It was mines that stopped us, Admiral Roebeck said, and he was quite right. Here is a guarantee given on paper that the Straits will be free to British ships, because there is a demilitarised zone. There is not a naval or a military authority in this House or outside who would tell the House that this is worth the paper it is written on as a guarantee of the freedom of the Straits. It is a sham! But there is something in the Straits Convention which is not illusory, which is not a sham. The United States of America, realising what it all meant, said, "We are not going to sign that; we are going to make a declaration that these Straits must be free to our ships of war." There was a long document of several Clauses defining demilitarised zones which are of no use, but there is an undertaking given, in consideration of this perfectly worthless guarantee, something that might involve us in war within the lifetime of this generation. It is undertaken to defend Turkey against any attack on Constan- tinople or any other part surrounding the Straits. What does that mean?
The same thing applies to France, Italy and, I think, Japan. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have only to exercise a small imagination and just to rub up their recent history to realise what are the possible dangers of a guarantee of that kind. Russia now may be pacific. Russia now is not aggressive; it is not her policy. I mean, not aggressive from the point of view of boundaries. She is aggressive enough in other respects. All revolutionists are apt to develop into Imperialists. I remember Lord Morley shaking a finger at me once and saying,
That is one of the possibilities of the future. We may even have to decide between breaking our word of honour or engaging upon a war which would be disastrous and calamitous, for the defence of a country which in the hour of our trouble betrayed us to our enemies. I do ask the Government—I realise that it is not their commitment—seriously to consider whether it is not worth their while, as far as the Straits Convention is concerned, not to accept such a grave responsibility. It is no good to us, none! It is not an essential part of the Treaty. I could understand their saying, "Well, this Treaty may be a bad one, but, at any rate, there is peace, and we cannot re-open it. We cannot undertake the responsibility of re-opening it by refusing ratification." The Turk has not asked for this. If this part is not ratified, it does not mean that the Treaty of Lausanne gees. The Government are going to ask the House to undertake a liability which we may regret, not we, perhaps, but the successors of the present Parliament. Many who are in this present Parliament may see the time when we are called upon to redeem our bond. We shall be face to face either with the gravest alternative with which a country can be faced, the dishonouring of its word, or the plunging of its people into a deadly war for an interest which is not its own. I earnestly implore the Prime Minister to consider whether he ought to press the House of Commons to ratify—I will not say the Treaty, because I frankly confess that I do not see he has any other alternative under the circumstances—this part of the Treaty, and invite the House of Commons to incur this obligation, an obligation of so indefinite, so interminable and so incalculable a character.
There is another word I should like to say about the Treaty. It does not make peace. It has left out one question of a very disturbing character, that is the fate of the province of Mosul. Is that going to be Arab or Turkish? The debates in the Parliament of Angora are very disquieting on this subject. The Angora Parliament does not seem to accept the arbitrament even of the League of Nations on this subject. Here is a Treaty, apart from the Capitulations, which commits us to these serious obligations, and does not settle even a dispute between this country and Turkey. That is still open.
The Treaty is a humiliating Treaty. It is a cowardly Treaty, and it may well be a calamitous Treaty. The hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester, following two or three other speeches which have been delivered on the same subject, one by the hon. and gallant Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), whom I do not see in his place, said that it was inevitable, owing to certain events which have taken place during the last few years. I do not agree. The fatal error which was committed by the late Foreign Secretary and by his Government was not to insist upon the terms of the Treaty of Mudania, which was signed between Sir Charles Harington and the Turkish commanders. By the terms of that Treaty, the Turks were not to cross into Europe until peace had been ratified. The moment they were across, we were at their mercy—entirely at their mercy. It was a fatal error.
The Turk does not know very much about Western Europe, but the Turk has the Oriental perception of human nature, and he exercised that at Lausanne. He saw what he had in front of him, and he took that as a specimen of what he had to deal with. He said, "I can bluff to my heart's content. There is nothing here that will stand up to me." He was quite right. It was a fatal error that was committed, and it was not necessary. The hon. and gallant Member opposite, in common with two or three others, said that we ought not to have taken from Turkey the Vilayet of Smyrna, and the rest. I do not agree. I think that, owing to conditions over which this country, at any rate, had no control, we missed a great opportunity of having a settlement which would have restored Asia Minor to the condition which the hon. and gallant Member himself said it was in at one time.
I was not responsible, except as one of the Ministers in a previous Government, for the policy of partition in Turkey, but I was all for it. It was a policy that was the policy of the Liberal Government. It was the policy of the Conservatives, because the Conservative leaders were called into council before the Coalition was ever formed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), who was then Prime Minister, called into council the Conservative leaders before that policy was ever settled, and it was with their full consent and approval that that policy was proclaimed. I will say more than that. If hon. Members of the Labour party will take the trouble, which I have taken in the last few days, and not for the first time, to look at the War Aims of their party—which I think were drafted by the President of the Board of Trade, because it looks rather like his style—they will find that they were also committed to that policy: the policy of severing the Turkish and the non-Turkish elements, taking away the non-Turkish elements from the Turkish.
We had a series of Treaties negotiated with Russia, with Italy, with France and with the Arabs, and by all these Treaties it was decided that the non-Turkish parts of Asia Minor and of European Turkey should be severed from Turkey. I say it was a good policy. Why do I say so? [ Interruption. ] I am coming to that, but I must be allowed to develop my argument. I am not going to shirk that point because it is an important point. That was the decision that was come to. It was a sound decision. Why was it a sound decision? I ask hon. Members whether they can point to any province-governed by Turkey that has not during: that period of its government deteriorated, in wealth, in population, in freedom, in happiness, in everything that makes a country great and prosperous? Not one province! Can they name a single province severed from Turkey within the last 50 years or more which, since its severence, has not grown in wealth, in population, in power, in prosperity and,, above all, in freedom? Not one! That is-a grave indictment against an Empire.
The determination of the Allies was not that the independence of Turkey should be destroyed, but that Turkey as an Empire should be broken up. Turkey as a Power governing other races has been found wanting, and the whole of the Allies decided that as an Empire she was to be brought to an end. That was the meaning of the various Treaties for which my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Lord Grey were primarily responsible, and which I, as a member of the Government, was only too delighted to accept and support, and which I should have been proud to carry out. I agree that the question always arises, How are you to decide what is Turkish and what is non-Turkish? It is a very difficult matter. The population in part of Turkey is very-mixed. We decided to appoint Commissions to investigate that from the ethnical, statistical, historical and economic points of view. The Greek claims were decided by a Commission upon which Sir Eyre Crowe, the permanent head of the Foreign Office, Sir Robert Borden and Mr. Harold Dickson represented us. It was they and M. Jules Cambon, who is far and away the most experienced of all the French diplomatists, who decided that the Vilayet of Smyrna was Greek. You had always this difficulty in deciding. For the reasons pointed out by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the population had been rather displaced. There had been massacres and there had been deportations, and when we came to adjudicate upon the question there were hundreds of thousands of Greeks who had been driven away from Turkey. We had therefore to take the statistics before the War, and it was upon that basis that these decisions were come to. There was not a single case where we took away territory from Turkey except on the basis of a close examination of statistical facts. There was only one doubtful case, and that is the case of the Italian claims in Southern Anatolia. I assume the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that part of the country. He knows perfectly well, as far as that littoral is concerned, it is largely devastated. In the old days you had a thronging and thriving population and you had some of the richest land on earth. There is hardly any population in some of these valleys now.
My right hon. Friend, who was primarily responsible for negotiating the Treaty that brought Italy into the War, made an arrangement which I certainly thoroughly approved of. There was another where he had to make arrangements which probably he, as well as myself, had more doubt about, and that is the Dalmatian coast. But that does not arise. As far as Southern Anatolia is concerned, it was a great statesman-like decision. You had a devastated country capable of unlimited development. You could not do it. The population was very mixed—Armenian, Greek, Italian, and Turkish. It would have been impossible to discover what the majority was. But the great fact was that there was no population. Here is Italy pouring its millions into North and South America—thrifty, hard-working people with great engineering gifts. Irrigation was wanted there, roads were wanted there. Their ancestors helped to develop that part of the world centuries before the Turk was ever heard of, and I think it was a fine statesman-like conception to give that part of Southern Anatolia which was depopulated to the Italians to develop. Instead of sending their people to the ends of the earth they would be nearer home and would have helped the power and the strength and the prosperity not merely of Italy, but of the whole of Europe. It was a fine conception of Salandra, who negotiated the Treaty with my right hon. Friend. Both of them have a right to be proud of that conception, and it is one of the greatest disasters that events have prevented them from carrying that idea out. You would have had Armenia protected, you would have had Smyrna in the hands of a thrifty, intelligent population whose ancestors were there many centuries before the Turks, and the majority were there in 1914. You would have had Southern Anatolia developed. It would have been a great boon to the whole world. I do not know whether it is worth while examining why it was not done. Of this I am proud. Britain was the last country that stood by that conception.
Why did Russia fail? The revolution in Russia, the breaking up of the military power of Russia, made it impossible for her to take any part at all. She was paralysed, she was impotent, and though I have no doubt even her present rulers would have been glad to do something, they had their own troubles. I am not criticising Russia. That is not my point. I am only pointing out why this failed. America was disposed to take the part of Russia, not in annexation, but as protector of the Armenians. President Wilson was strongly for it. He went over to America to commend that suggestion to his own people. He said he would devote the whole of his influence to doing so. One remembers that disaster. It is not Turkey alone, it is not Armenia alone which has suffered because of the breakdown of that very great and distinguished statesman. What happened next? Italy was exhausted. Italy was tired. There was a reaction against the spirit that made the Treaty—a temporary one—and Italy abandoned her idea. France was pressed hard in Cilicia. She withdrew and made a separate treaty. Then came the greatest disaster of all, the restoration of King Constantine to Greece. But for that I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Greeks would not have held their own. There was not a battle fought between the Greeks and the Turks before King Constantine demoralised the army by putting inferior generals who were purely supporters of his dynasty, where the Greeks did not defeat the Turks easily. I do not agree that it could not have been done. That is the reason why this happened. I think it deplorable, but I am glad to come here on the Floor of the House and say, with knowledge and with a clean conscience, that whatever happened Britain is not responsible. We stood by those arrangements right to the end, and they would have been the making of Asia Minor. They would have enriched humanity. It would have been a blessing to civilisation.
Hon. Members have been full of admiration for the Turks. I have not a word to say about the Turks. All I say is this. Twice did Britain and France save the Turk from destruction—once in a great war, once in a threatened war. Germany and Austria never lifted a little finger to save her. [ Interruption. ] I do not know why the Colonial Secretary is amused at that. What happened when the War came? We, who had saved Turkey repeatedly, had the door of the Dardanelles closed against us in the interests of Germany and Austria. We were denied access to the Black Sea. By that means the War was prolonged for a year or two at an enormous cost of human life and at a cost which has made the world a broken-backed thing that cannot rise. What about the Greeks? I do not say the Greeks put the whole of their strength behind us, but they did send support. They gave their islands, which were invaluable bases for us. They gave us a position on the mainland. More than that, they sent us divisions, and I shall never forget 1918, when we wanted divisions in France. The French and the British were able to spare divisions from Salonica because M. Venizelos had put Greek divisions there, and when the fighting came, if you look at the testimony of the French and British generals, you will see they did their part gallantly and stormed the Bulgarian position at a most difficult moment. They helped, and when we went to the Conference we felt that the foes of Britain are our foes and the friends of Britain are our friends. Why should not we have stood up for the Power that, at any rate, gave us some help, and why should we have sacrificed for a Power that did its best to thwart us, and in a life and death struggle very nearly succeeded in doing so. When I look at this Treaty, after all that has been accomplished, after all the effort we put forth, I feel it is a humiliating thing and it is a dark page in the history of British diplomacy.
The right hon. Gentleman has only devoted a very small part of his speech to the Amendment. I am sure the House as a whole will be heartily with him in regretting the fact that the Dominions and India were not able to be represented at Lausanne. I think everyone must regret that But I cannot help thinking the statement the Prime Minister made last Tuesday has disposed of most of the main points of the Amendment upon the issue as to whether the opinion of the Dominions has been ascertained or not. I should like the supporters of this Amendment to ask themselves one question, and that a very important one. I think if they did so, they would find that the Amendment is not only a useless but probably rather a dangerous one. Supposing that the opinion of the Dominions had never been ascertained, that this Amendment were passed, that the Second Reading of this Bill were held up pending consultation with the Dominions and India, and that the reply from the Dominions and India was unfavourable, I think the supporters of this Amendment should in that case ask themselves this question: "Are we prepared to refuse to ratify this Treaty?" I think that if they were to ask themselves that question in all fairness they would come down from the rather rarefied atmosphere of this Amendment to the more prosaic but solid fact that this Treaty is necessary, with all its drawbacks—and they are neither few nor small. It is necessary in the interests of Great Britain, and must be ratified whether the Dominions approve of it or not.
What is the alternative to this Treaty? Does anybody suppose that it would be improved upon by a resumption of the negotiations? The only way in which it could be improved upon from the British point of view would be by a successful war, and I do not think that anybody, however undesirable they may think this Treaty to be, would consider another war preferable to it. Are we to stand aside and denounce the Treaty, and leave our relations with Turkey suspended indefinitely? I remember once hearing that the town of Berwick is still technically at war with France, never having made peace with our neighbour since the Napoleonic Wars. I do not think anybody would suggest that we ought to follow that example. Then there are the further difficulties which the Prime Minister pointed out last Tuesday, that the Turks refused point blank to set up any Commission, to proceed with any of the committees, or to settle any of the questions outstanding between this country and Turkey, until the Treaty has been ratified. Therefore it seems to me that this nation has no practical alternative except to ratify the Treaty. Even if it had been ascertained that the opinion of the Dominions was contrary to ratification by us, we should be compelled to ratify this Treaty, and to recognise what the Dominions have themselves on more than one occasion put forward, namely, that although it is highly desirable that, wherever and whenever possible, we should as an Empire act together and in consultation on matters of international importance, it is nevertheless true that there are many international matters which may affect some members of the Commonwealth of Nations more than others, and in those cases some latitude of independence must be allowed if the bonds of Empire are not to be strained to breaking point.
Therefore I would say, very respectfully, that this Amendment, perhaps, had better never have been moved. At the best it could only have been ineffective, and at the worst it might have emphasised, and, perhaps, exaggerated, certain differences between the Dominions and ourselves—differences such as must sometimes exist, but which are better not dwelt upon. No one has pretended, in the course of this Debate, that this Treaty is an ideal one. It is certainly not a Treaty that anyone who was a Member of this House in 1919 ever thought they would be called upon to ratify. But such has been the lack of union that has characterised the dealings of ourselves and the Allies with the Turks from their beginning, that there are many people in the House to-day who may be glad to ratify even such a Treaty as this. When we look back upon the difficulties and dangers that led up to the protracted negotiations at Lausanne, and at those negotiations themselves, I think we may have the satisfaction of believing that the defects in the Treaty cannot be laid to our account, and, had it not been for the action that we took at a certain critical moment, we might, perhaps, have no Treaty at all to-day, or certainly a much more unfavourable one than this.
After all, we have gained a great deal. It is common ground that by our conduct, or rather, the conduct of our negotiators, backed by the Government and helped a great deal by the combination of firmness and restraint shown by our military command at Constantinople, we have come through those difficult years with, if anything, added prestige. Sir Charles Harington has been quoted in this Debate, and he is an authority on this subject, as saying that our prestige never stood higher. When the fact is taken into consideration that we were dealing with a Moslem nation, that is of supreme importance. If we had come out of those negotiations with a loss of prestige, it would have done us untold harm, but we have avoided that, and we have come out of the whole affair, I think, in a manner which will react favourably on our relations with our own Moslem populations. Then we have secured the freedom of the Straits for commercial vessels, and, to a limited extent, for aircraft and for ships of war. That would seem to me to be a considerable advantage. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) declared that the demilitarisation of the zones was of no value at all. I would hesitate to take up his opinion on that matter, because I do not know anything about it, but I am inclined to think that he went a little far. If there is no value in the demilitarisation of the zones, it stultifies the actions that other nations than ourselves have taken in other theatres.
I did not say there was no value in the demilitarisation of the zones, but I said that this particular zone was valueless because you could fire right across it.
I accept that, because, as I have said, I am not an authority on the matter, and the right hon. Gentleman is. I am very sorry to hear it, that is all I can say. I had hoped that this demilitarisation Clause would be a help to us. It would, I thought, be a help to us from the fact of its having been set up, and I thought we might, perhaps, be able to take advantage of it in case of a sudden outbreak of war; but, there again, I had not until now looked upon that as one of the grave defects of the Treaty. I think that its three main defects are, firstly, the failure to secure proper terms for the Armenians and other non-Turkish populations residing in Turkey; secondly, the unsatisfactory conditions under which foreigners will generally reside in Turkey in the future; and, thirdly, as the right hon. Gentleman has also pointed out, the failure to settle the Mosul question. The first two points, I think, may very likely react to the detriment of Turkey herself, but that is a poor compensation for the unfortunate Armenians, or for foreigners' residing in Turkey. I hope that, with the new spirit which we have been told is arising in Turkey, our fears may be groundless, but I think that those are very serious defects, the first from a humanitarian point of view, and the second from the point of view of our own trade relations with Turkey. I hope that the influence of the League of Nations may be felt beneficially, if not in regard to both, certainly in regard to one or the other. It would be interesting to know whether the Government are taking any steps, or whether they can take any steps, to strengthen the hands of the League of Nations in regard to these matters.
The Mosul question is one which concerns solely ourselves and Turkey. It is a most important question, and the Treaty leaves it entirely in the air. I hope that the Government may be able to settle it favourably without recourse to the League of Nations, and that they may, perhaps, be able to give us some information to-day as to the state of affairs in this matter, and as to the policy they may pursue in the future. There is one other point that I wanted to raise. I would very respectfully contradict the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Burghs in the statement he made with regard to the two ships. Under Article 58 of this Treaty, the Turks definitely renounce their claim to the £7,000,000 which they had claimed for the ships which were being built in August, 1914, and which, on the declaration of war, were taken over by us. We took over those ships of war for our own use. The Turks retaliated by requisitioning the goods of British residents in Turkey to the value of some £5,000,000. This was, perhaps, not an unnatural action on the part of the Turks, but it was most disastrous for the unfortunate British residents in Turkey, who, in effect, found themselves called upon to pay, out of their own private pockets, the cost of those two ships which had been taken over for the use of this country. In that the Government not only got the ships, but also got the money for them, I think it would be only fair—
May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question? Did the Turks requisition the property of British citizens in Turkey before Turkey entered into the War?
Yes. We took over the sum of £5,000,000 which the Turks had paid for the ships, and which was in British banks when war broke out. We took over that money when the Turks declared war upon us, and, therefore, it seems to be only fair that the claims of these people should be recognised as falling to be satisfied specifically out of the £5,000,000 which we took over from the Turks at the beginning of the War. In that we are being asked to ratify this Treaty to-day, in which there is a provision that the Turks renounce this claim to £5,000,000, I hope the Government may see their way to announce definitely that properly authenticated claims will be met out of this specific fund.
6.0 P.M.
I want to lead the House back from the greater question to the question of finance, and to refer to the injustice that is being done to the bondholders in this country by this Treaty of Lausanne. I know that it is very unpopular to place the wrongs of bondholders before any meeting, and I know that it is particularly difficult in this House, but, after all, bondholders have their rights, and bondholders may complain of a wrong done to them. A wrong has been done to the Turkish Tribute bondholders by this Treaty of Lausanne. I would not for one moment advocate that this country should in any circumstances support, by force of arms, the bondholders' claim. Whenever investors lend to foreign nations they weigh up the chances of payment and non-payment, and the interest which they get is calculated at a rate that is not normally arranged, partly for that reason and partly as a sort of insurance for the extra risk that is run. Therefore they have no right, when they have taken a risk, knowing all the circumstances of the matter, to come to the Government and ask them to insist upon the carrying out of the contract with some foreign nation, and all that they can expect the Government to do is to act for them in the matter.
In this instance I speak for the bondholders of these two loans, and I speak as one without any personal interest because, before I even asked, a question on this matter, I sold out my whole holding so as to be able to approach the House without there being the suspicion that I was interested in any way in attempting to get a great wrong righted. I know, also, that the question of bondholders is extremely unpopular, but I may point out to hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway that, if there were a system of capital levy, they would want to fleece the bondholders, and that it is not a good thing for them, therefore, to allow the bondholders to be fleeced in the first instance by somebody else. It is to their interest to act rightly and to act promptly. I know that it is often said that men gave their lives in the War, but other people would not give their money, and that human life was conscripted but that they did not conscript wealth. But they did. We asked, in the first instance, those who held American securities, and securities on which America would advance money, either to sell those bonds or to lend them, and their action in the matter went an enormous way to enable us to pay for the War. I know that there were some people who were selfish, who would not give up their property or sell their bonds, but there were selfish people, also, who wanted to throw the burden of defending the country upon others and would not go themselves. The two things are absolutely identical. Therefore, I hope that I shall have the attention of the House when I put the whole of the case, and I hope that the House will consider it sympathetically. I hope that the Government will do what they can, so that no action of theirs shall interfere with the security of the bondholders.
Let me give a short history of what took place. In 1854 there had been in existence an agreement that Egypt, because she was given a sort of independence under the suzerainty of Turkey, should pay a certain tribute. Turkey herself wanted money. She came to borrow it in the markets of London and Paris, and was unable to do so on her own security. She was, therefore, asked, "As we will not lend money on your own security, what pledge will you give us?" and she gave a pledge of this Egyptian tribute. The tribute in question was to be paid direct to either the Bank of England or the undertakers of the loan. There was a definite absolute engagement by the Egyptian Government that certain annuities were to be paid for the service of these bonds, and it was arranged, only as between Turkey and Egypt, and not affecting in any way the bondholders, that the Egyptians should be entitled to take from the tribute that they paid the amount that they were called upon to give for these annuities. This security is always looked upon as an Egyptian security, and you will see in to-day's Stock Exchange quotation that this security is not put in the list of Turkish securities, but is put in the list of Egyptian securities. The total amount of the bonds was some £14,000,000. The 3½ per cent. Bonds were about £8,000,000 odd, and the 4 per cent, were a little over £6,000,000. The annuities that were paid gradually reduced the loans until the 4 per cent, are about £4,600,000, and the 3½ per cent, about £6,400,000. When the Treaty of Sevres was signed—a Treaty that was not ratified, it is true—they inserted Article 112, which said: Had this been a private agreement, an agreement between two private individuals and not between two nations, the person who relieved somebody else of a debt could only relieve it by taking its place, and some large institutions and some of our big investors purchased these bonds of 1891 and 1894 on the faith of this Article. It is true that it was not ratified. The next point is this. Fearing that there might be some difference, when it came to the question of the termination of the Protectorate in Egypt, and fearing that some difference might be made if the Treaty of Sèvres were not ratified and agreed to by Egypt, a letter was sent to the Foreign Office and an answer was received on 26th March, 1922, which stated: Article 19 of the Treaty, which we are now asked to ratify, it is provided:
There is another security for this loan—that if this debt were properly apportioned and borne, it would be worse for Egypt than to bear these annuities which are not very high and most of which cease in about 30 years. The 1891 annuities will be finished in 1952, and the 1894 in 1965. You have here an opportunity to set right a wrong that was done I am not now concerned between the kindness of the Foreign Office and the hard-heartedness of the Treasury. The present Government may say, as it has said on so many occasions, that it has inherited this. It is true that the matter has been going on for three or four years. The Government inherited that excellent operation which is now being carried on in the city in the conversion of our loan. They get a large amount of praise for that in the city but they also have to take a large amount of blame in the city for having, under the Trade Facilities Act, given terms which must interfere with the general credit of the country. May I, with all humility and deference, compare the Financial Secretary to the Treasury with Louis XI who asked for forgiveness for a sin he was going to commit, because the Financial Secretary will commit a sin unless his does his very utmost to set light a matter of which we have just complaint and sees to it that when the time comes for a settlement with Egypt, the Government will say to Egypt, "Put this debt in the same position as your own debts, the 2½ per cent, which is guaranteed by the Powers, the 3½ per cent., and the 4 per cent, unified and secured on the Caisse debt, in which some of the revenues are collected." First of all, the debts are paid and the surplus is paid over to the Treasurer of the Egyptian Government. It is in full confidence that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—we may even include the Foreign Office—want to-day what is right and fair, and want to take away—I do not think there is any risk or danger—the very suspicion of danger, that I bring this matter before them.
May I deal with one point right away? The second language of Turkey is French, as one might say the second language of all the "best fellows" in England is Welsh. It was not according to any theoretical ruling, but the Treaty was published in French and translated into English, for the very practical reason of taking the natural language common to the contracting parties. I do not need to make any large draft upon the patience of the House, and for the very good reason that I am not in the position of many of those who have taken part in the Debate, who, by reason of practical first-hand experience, or a nice Oriental scholarship, are able to illuminate for the House those dark and mysterious currents of feeling which are now acting upon the heart and the brain, or whatever be the seat of the passion, of the races of Islam. But one cannot have listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) without seeing that the Treaty of Lausanne has many other aspects. It has, of course, the Anatolian aspect, which has been dealt with. It has, has it not, the aspect of the Ægean and of Thrace. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was, it appeared to me, little more than a gloss and commentary upon that interesting epigram, told us by the hon. Member for Oldham (Sir E. Grigg), of the Rumanian Delegate at the Conference, that the true mouth of the Danube was the Dardanelles. Is that small amount of truth which gives an epigram interest lessened or increased if one extends the phrase a little and says that the true mouth of the Danube is the Straits of Gibraltar, and that France is a riparian nation north and south?
We have of late, it is true, been concentrating in this House rather on far distant waters, on the waters of the Pacific, when we discussed the question of Singapore. But I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Amery) in anything that he said about the Straits of Singapore regarded it as axiomatic that we had complete control of the Mediterranean. Now I ask whether, in connection with the Treaty of Lausanne—I submit that it is, in part, a Mediterranean question—we can postulate that we have at this moment any excess of stability in that sea. I would be careful to avoid the careless, phrase of an ignorant person which can be so mischievous. The House delights, and does nothing but delight, to see France consolidating a great North. African Empire. But is it not, at- the same time, provocative of thought, as to whether we can be said at present to be consolidating our position in Egypt? There is that other great and friendly Power, Italy, now the subject of so many constitutional experiments which we waive aside as distant happenings. Is it not possible that there may be Italian experiments in overseas expansion which will inevitably force themselves on our attention? I avoid carefully, as one inexpert, touching on the larger questions of the future of Islam. I do sometimes ask myself whether, in speaking of the future of Turkey, we have exhausted all the possibilities, when we distinguish between, on the one hand, the old Ottoman Empire, that strange medieval theocracy, as it has been called, and, on the other hand, the new national State of Turkey, made civil in the breezes of Anatolia. I ask myself whether, in reading the past history of the country, the Turkish Power which was founded and led by Urchan, Murad, Mohammed, and Suliman, entirely resembled the first and utterly disresembled the second.
Lastly, in all these Near Eastern nations, we have, so to speak, sounded the trumpet that they should return to their tents. We have actually asked the assistance of the League of Nations to help us to make great shifts of population. We are throwing back these Balkan, these Eastern European nations, on their own resources. A pessimist might say that we are allowing them to stew in their own juice. Notice this, because this is a movement which I do not believe has yet been fully appreciated. The United States at this moment is stopping the immigration of these Mediterranean nations, and anyone who has travelled in those parts knows the reaction of that immigration in the Mediterranean lands. Indeed, these nations are being thrown upon their own resources. One hopes that it may be nothing worse. There are happily definite signs that Greece is in some small measure regarding her custodianship of her Ægean ports as a trust for the territories of the hinterland, and there are signs, notable in the last year, that that great agrarian revolution which has struck every other country in Europe, is beginning to be felt there and cannot leave Greece where she was. It may, from without, turn her to more thought about within. But I submit that the Lausanne Treaty, as I hope I have proved to the House, can be regarded justly as a Mediterranean question, and that in this flux and ebb of countries, of which we have not yet seen the end, any stability is worth having. It is something from which to start. It may not be—to use an ill-fated phrase—a "perfect and perpetual peace." Therefore I look on the Turk, if it is not impertinent to say so, not in the Byronic phrase which one might expect to find on the lips of the hon. and gallant Member for Kennington (Lieut.-Colonel T. Williams)—
Of course, there will be risks. Heaven forefend that our diplomats should ever reach the stage at which they will not take some risks! There are some risks tremendously worth taking and, if it comes to risks, is not this obligation, undertaken in conjunction with the other Powers in regard to the historic Straits, less of a risk than the risk that was undertaken when we embarked upon the adventurous gamble of Smyrna? At least if it is a gamble it has that which alone makes gambling dignified—that you are risking things which belong to yourself. I turn for a few moments to the Amend- ment moved by the hon. and gallant Member for Oldham. In pointing out the implications inherent in the fact that our Foreign Secretary in future—if one may put it that way—can no longer eel in and out of the traffic on a bicycle, but must ride with a sidecar on four wheels, and must therefore be careful as to how he rounds the corners, it seemed to me that it was only fortuitously that the hon. and gallant Member was discussing the Treaty of Lausanne at all. Surely he was raising a much larger question—namely, the method by which the British Executive is in future to conduct foreign affairs. That was the point raised by the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs, but the quick and judicious mind of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) detected some irrelevancy to the main point under discussion and obtained a ruling from you, Mr. Speaker, on the question. It seemed to me, however, that he was not assisting the hon. and gallant Member for Oldham, who was then driven back upon showing that His Majesty's Government had not taken full care or acted with perfect discretion in the way the Dominion representatives had been consulted. As we learned—and as we knew at the time—all the Dominions, with the possible exception of Canada, had either ratified the Treaty or announced their intention of doing so shortly. That gave an air of unreality to what was, of course, as it would be coming from the hon. and gallant Member, a very interesting, penetrating and remarkable speech.
I do not intend to take upon myself to answer the challenge thrown at the feet of the Government by the right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), but it does seem to me that even in the case of the exception of Canada he has not proved his case of any misbehaviour, shall we call it, or any lack of special courtesy on the part of the Government. If it is not impertinent to say so, it seems to me, on considering the pronouncements of the Prime Minister of Canada—I wish to put it respectfully—that our own Prime Minister has a rival in the production of tenebrosity. The hon. and gallant Member did really raise a very large question as also did the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs and I am one of those who, with very great respect, protest and believe it important to protest, against the particular view of foreign affairs which was set out in that particular utterance. I think it hardly does the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs justice in view of his own very weighty and careful pronouncements in the book which has made him an authority throughout the Continent of Europe. As one who protests against that view of affairs I feel, too, that it is no use taking up this particular point in connection with this Treaty. We really want, if the question is to be adequately deal with, a full dress Debate upon the whole subject of what one may call Dominion consultation. It would be interesting in such a Debate to examine the suggestion which I think was implicit in an utterance of the Secretary of State for the Colonies that Dominion consultation consists in consulting the Dominion Governments and in taking the opinion of the Dominion Oppositions or any particular Members of them who seem congenial.
It would also raise, and it would be very interesting to test, the impression which I myself formed from some residence in Ottawa, that behind and despite a great appearance of independence, there is in the House of Commons in Ottawa a very delightful and—I use the word in no derogatory sense—slavish copying of our own constitutional proceedings and if, for example, every agreement, every commitment, every understanding is to be presented to this House we shall find ourselves, I suppose, in precisely the same situation with regard to the Executives in all the Dominions and all legislative bodies. One would be bound to ask whether, if the doctrine of Dominion consultation were pressed to its logical conclusion, we should not reach a stage at which our treaty-making or agreement-making power would become so dissipated that we should be left without any machinery for exerting our external sovereignty. In any discussion on Dominion consultation, such as I think the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Oldham really calls for, I think we should be tempted to ask whether, if we look at the map of Europe and all its problems, the chief task of British diplomacy in the future, as it was in the mast glorious page of the history of British diplomacy in the past, will not be what I may call mediatorial diplomacy? I have had some experience of international conferences and it always seems to me that, before very long, you were trying to make the other fellows agree to something. I think that will be our chief task in the future. I ask the hon. and gallant Member for Oldham whether his experience of the League of Nations as a peacemaker between very quarrelsome nations is not this—that a peacemaker, after a successful piece of reconciliation, has to keep extremely quiet. He is much more likely to get his agreement, carefully arrived at by delicate concessions, accepted by the very touchy individuals who have been fighting if he does not "swank" too much about the wonderful mediatory task he has successfully performed, and it is true, I think, to apply to mediatorial diplomacy what was said by the prophet, that "in quietness shall be your strength."
I do not profess in these few disjointed comments on the illuminating speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Oldham to have dealt with the problem of the consultation of the Dominions. If I were to do so, I should quickly draw a distinction which I got from the admirable book of the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs between consultation as to policy and consultation as to actual negotiations. That distinction is brought out by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his book. I hope I have suggested that the overlapping portion of this really gigantic question and the gigantic political question of the Treaty of Lausanne is so small, so exiguous, that I feel sure that the hon. and gallant Member will hardly insist upon holding up the latter until the former is really solved, if it be soluble. Surely it is a question of how we approach the Treaty of Lausanne. We are not sitting as a jury to pass judgment upon the particular clauses of a bargain. Rather, it seems to me, are we like students in an operating theatre, in which has been performed, upon the scarcely animate body of Europe, an operation so delicate that for one or two breathless moments we saw the very spinal cord itself exposed. Operative surgery has done all, and more than all, surely, that can be demanded of it. Recovery is a question for that vis medicatrix, that healing force, which will be present if the constitution be resilient, but will not be there if the patient's constitution be torpid or unsound.
What is wanted for the patient at the present moment, it seems to me, is perfect quiet. It is time to lay down straw in the street, and if the party opposite have for this occasion silenced their "loud speaker," it seems to me there is still a certain danger in the young ladies further down the road practising their scales. Luckily, in my short but, I think I may claim, fairly assiduous attendance at Debates in this House, I have found that, with an almost elfin perversity, the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite have frequently denied their speeches by their actions. Such conduct might well win us to adore a woman, and may even yet teach the House to love a Liberal. Thus with favouring breezes blowing from all three quarters of the House, it will need very little steersmanship on the part of the Government to waft this barque, long overdue upon the voyage, successfully into harbour.
The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Sir G. Butler) was extremely interesting in his accounts of his adventures with the other sex. I do not propose to follow him into his warlike and peacelike experiences further than to apply his compliment to the two lady Members for Louth (Mrs. Wintringham) and Wycombe (Lady Terrington), to whom, I suppose, he was referring as young ladies. They are the only two in a party of 158, and I am certain that the hon. Member did not wish to apply that description to any other Member on these benches. I am impelled to say a few words by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Combined Universities (Mr. Fisher) last week in this House, and still more by the speech delivered to-day by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). I thought the former was the speech of a political Rip Van Winkle. It would have been in place if it had been delivered in this Chamber, or in the Council Chamber in Paris, where the various peace treaties were produced in the year immediately following the surrender of the Turkish forces, in 1919. He seems to have entirely ignored the events that have happened since then. I do not expect him to welcome the heroic achievements of a people who do not follow the Cross, but who claim to follow the Crescent, but he seems entirely ignorant of one of the greatest resurgencies that a people have ever made, one of the greatest recoveries that a defeated and exhausted people have ever made, in the defence of their home lands and liberties. All that seems to have escaped him.
With regard to the speech of the right hen. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, I must say that I think, when we are discussing what is supposed to be a treaty of peace with a people with whom we have been at war, directly or indirectly, for many long years, we might talk peace. He treated, as did the right hon. Member for the Combined Universities, the Turkish people as an inferior race.
Hear, hear!
The right hon. Gentleman now cheers those sentiments. He treated them as a people who commit atrocities on harmless persons, and who are never sinned against ill the way in which they themselves sin. I do not want to go into details at all, but may I refer my right hon. Friend to the report of two British officers, Colonel Farmer and Major General Franks, which he will find printed in the Turkish Series, No. 1 of 1921, Command Paper 1417, in which the account is given of a perfectly appalling atrocity committed by his Greek friends in this very vilayet of Smyrna, which, according to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, is almost entirely occupied by Greeks. I do not want to rake up the past, because, for good or ill, we are discussing a treaty of peace, but I do not think the Greek atrocities, or for that matter the Armenian atrocities, when they had the chance to commit them, were any less terrible or appalling or disgusting to anyone who knows their details than anything committed by the Turks. With regard to the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham (Sir E. Grigg), what he seems to have overlooked is the reason for the guarantee which we have given for the demilitarised zone on the Straits. The Turkish Navy, such as was left, was taken over by the British authorities when Constantinople was occupied, and a great many of the vessels were disarmed or were made useless.
Furthermore, Turkey has no means of replacing those ships, because her finances are at a very low ebb, indeed. You have a Greek fleet that is, comparatively, strong and efficient, against which the present Turkish forces have no chance whatever, and the fear that the Turks have is that the Greeks, may use their navy and attack them by sea. That is why we have been compelled in the negotiations to guarantee Turkey—and we are supported in this by Japan, Italy, and France—against such a surprise attack by sea from Greece. I do not think it is at all unreasonable, and when my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, who, I am sorry, is not now in the House—I know he has had to leave, but I gave him notice that I should refer to his speech; I told him, both in writing and verbally, but I know he has been called away—when he says that a future House of Commons may regret these commitments to assist in keeping peace in that part of the world, he is condemning the whole principle of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
No!
Certainly he is. [ Interruption. ] I feel rather like an isolated Turk in an Armenian colony on the shores of Lake Van. The same criticisms that were made against these commitments could be applied with even greater force with regard to the Covenant of the League of Nations, where the commitments are greater, and it is just as well that we should face these facts. In fact, all the future treaties, which I hope> will be brought about by the present Government, for mutual disarmament must contain some mutual, collateral guarantees, and if we do insist on certain people demilitarising certain parts of their territory, we, on our side, must be prepared to protect them against unprovoked and sudden attacks. I have said hard things in this House about the Greeks in opposing the policy of the late Coalition. The late Sir John Rees, a very respected and hon. Member of this House, and the late Colonel Aubrey Herbert, another very respected and hon. Member of this House, and the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Colonel Wedgwood), and myself were almost alone in raising our voices in protest against the original policy of the Smyrna landing, and the policy which has been defended to-night by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, but I am going to say something now on behalf of the Greeks.
7.0 P.M.
We have heard, in recent years and in recent speeches, a great deal about the rights of nationalities. Might I ask the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, when he replies, if he can give the House some information as to the Government's policy with regard to the Island of Cyprus? If it is right that the Dodecanese Islands shall be returned to Greece for reasons of nationality, might I ask what is the justification for maintaining the possession of Cyprus by the British Empire? Under this Treaty of Lausanne we annex the Island of Cyprus. It has a strategical value, but the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants—I think, something like 90 per cent.—are Greek, and we should be setting an extremely fine example at the present moment if we expressed our intention of holding a plebiscite in Cyprus to enable the people to determine to which country they should owe allegiance. Do not let us make it a bargaining point at all. Do not let us say to Italy, for example,"We will evacuate Cyprus when you evacuate Rhodes or the Dodecanese Islands."I think that would detract from the whole value of our action. An hon. Member opposite seems to disagree with my proposal, but might I remind him that a position of much greater strategical importance was given to the Greek people, when they received their freedom from Turkish misrule, by Mr. Gladstone? I am referring to the Island of Corfu, which was of tremendous importance. It was given by a Liberal Government at the time. No Englishman's name is held in greater veneration in Greece than that of Gladstone.
I hesitate to join my fellow Armenian. I know the hon. and gallant Gentleman will believe me, and I believe it is an historical fact that when Mr. Gladstone went to report on this subject he did report adversely on the secession of Corfu.
I will believe anything my hon. and gallant Friend says. At any rate, Great Britain gave up the island and I do not think we have suffered in consequence although we spent a great deal of money. We could make arrangements with regard to the naval bases of Cyprus. We could make arrangements that in time of war we should have the use of certain harbours in this island. We could arrange for safe guards against the harbours of Cyprus being used as submarine bases by our enemies. I am trying to meet the ordinary scaremongering arguments. We have a chance here to make a sacrifice ourselves, and, instead of giving away other people's territory, giving away a little territory which we can claim to-day. I think the case for doing what I suggest is very strong indeed.
May I ask what about the Turks in Cyprus?
I am not surprised that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Melton (Sir C. Yate) should raise the question of the Turks in Cyprus. There is a Turkish minority in Cyprus, and we would have to arrange for their safeguards. A great deal of the territory which has been handed over under these Treaties contains Moslem minorities. I do not see any reason why the rather good minority clauses of these Treaties should not be applied. I am sure if my hon. and gallant Friend is in this House when this happens he will be the first to raise his voice. I am sorry that hon. Members of my party who have spoken have not been able to forget their rancour and indignation against the Turk. They have looked on the Turks as an inferior people. Those English merchants who have dealings with. the Levant do not share their sentiments. We have to live with the Turks in this world. They have proved that they have extraordinary powers of resistance to oppression. The Turkish people now occupy a comparatively small but a very rich country. The present rulers realise that the strength of the Ottoman Empire was sapped in trying to keep down the rebellious people of Mesopotamia, Palestine, and so on, which we are finding also a rather exhausting process. They have made more reforms in Turkey comparatively than have been made in Russia under the Russian Revolution. This, according to my right hon. Friend, despised and inferior people have given more political rights to women in Turkey than we have in this country.
There is a great opportunity to assist the Turks in the reconstruction of their country and particularly in reference to railway construction in that country. As long ago as the seventies of last century a serious proposition was made and strongly supported by the late Sir Stafford Northcote for the completion of a railway route from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf. It was not proceeded with for various reasons, and as the House knows, the Germans took the matter up in conjunction with the French and other foreign capital, but without English capital the great project of the Bagdad Railway was launched. It was originally a British proposal. It was taken up by the Germans in the face of Russian opposition and was on the way to completion when the War broke out. This is the short overland route to India, and is of great interest to us. The Turks have a very strong nationalist feeling. They are most anxious to manage and control and operate their own railways, and we cannot blame them, but they do need financial help. This is where we can help them very considerably, and in so doing we can help unemployment in this country because the goods required for the reconstruction of the railways can be made here and provide employment for our people.
Germany is sending them.
The German shares in the Bagdad Railway have been taken by the Reparation Commission and are now at the disposal of the English, French, and Italians. I think I am right. Hon. Members on the Front Bench will correct me if I am wrong. I think it is necessary to have the French and the Italians on our side. The original suggestion of the pioneers of the Bagdad Railway was to make it an international concern. That was resisted by the British Government for reasons' which have now passed away. There is a very great opportunity to-day to assist the Turks in reconstructing their railway system, in completing this short overland route to India, and in opening up a very rich part of the world which has been too long neglected. I hope the Government will endeavour to come to arrangements with the Turkish Government on this matter. The Swiss Bank, Zurich Bank fur Orientalische Eisenbahnen, has control over the Anatolian Railways. The Turks have the right, under the original concession, to purchase them back. If they wish to be obstructive, they can raise the money in some other country and get control of these railways.
I am not so much concerned with that matter as with the completion eventually of the whole overland route to the Persian Gulf, and I hope the Government will seize an opportunity, which at this moment presents itself to us, to construct this great work. By this means I think we can heal the wounds of Turkey both mental and physical. We can make friends with the people, who are of great importance in that part of the world and who are still looked on as one of the greatest Moslem peoples. There are certain solid benefits to our own industries. This matter will have to be very carefully handled. The Nationalist feelings in Turkey are very strong, and they must be assured against exploitation, and their national dignity must be recognised. At the same time there are other very important railways needed in Turkey, construction of which was blocked by Russia in the past for strategical reasons, and there we can help to the mutual advantage of the two countries. I raise this matter in the most friendly way for the Government, and I ask them to look into this matter very carefully and use their best endeavour to help the British groups who are at the present moment prepared; to enter into financial commitments in Turkey. I hope the Government's financial assistance and guarantees can be given and that a long view will be taken which will do nothing but good to the two countries concerned.
I followed the hon. Member for Central Hackney (Mr. Franklin) on the subject of Loans. He has dealt already with two of the Loans affected by the Treaty of Lausanne, and he did not deal with the third because he said he was a holder. I wish to say, in order that it may not be thought that we on this side have less tender consciences than Gentlemen who sit below the Gangway opposite, that I do not hold any of the Loan about which I wish to address the House. The Turkish Guaranteed 4 per cent. Bonds of 1855 were issued to pay for the Crimean War. There were originally £5,000,000 of these bonds, and the amount now outstanding is £3,815,200, the rest having been redeemed. Interest on these bonds was guaranteed by the English and French Governments, but only the interest. The security was first the balance of the Egyptian Tribute after the, service of the loan of 1854 was satisfied. The 1854 Loan became eventually the 3½ per cent. Loan of 1894. In August, 1855, the Earl of Clarendon, speaking on this subject in the House of Lords, when the Bill was introduced said:
In 1878 we occupied Cyprus, and the balance of the Cyprus revenues, after providing for the cost of administration, were substituted for the customs of Smyrna and Syria. In 1892 this surplus was fixed at £92,799. The curious thing about this transaction is that the bondholders were never consulted, and it is not clear whether the customs of Smyrna and Syria were released from the obligation. The whole thing is very vague, and I have not been able to satisfy myself after much research that these customs were released at all. The amount required for the service of the loan, in addition to the Egyptian tribute, is £82,000 per annum, leaving the difference between £82,000 and £92,000. This difference of £10,000 a year, which was Turkish money, has always been held back by the British Government. This is called the surplus of the tribute, and the British Government have invested it in certain British securities. I am informed that this sum has now reached something like £500,000. Why is this difference of £10,000 held back? I suppose it was done because the Turkish Government were in default in the redemption of these bonds.
That money was invested. It was really Turkish money, and was properly retained by the English Government because Turkey was in default. It is quite true that Turkey asked for it, but she was told that she could not have it because she was in default. Under the Treaty of Lausanne Turkey is released from all her obligations under this loan. What are those obligations? First of all her obligation to pay the interest. Secondly, there is the redemption of these bonds in regard to which she is in default; and, thirdly, the obligation to keep up the sinking fund. Turkey has had all that completely wiped out and the bondholders were not consulted. I believe the real reason why this was done is that the people who drew up the Treaty did not realise that this loan was on a totally different foundation from the two loans which the hon. Member for Central Hackney (Mr. Franklin) dealt with, and they were all treated in the same way. This loan is an obligation of Turkey, and certain definite securities were hypothecated to it besides the Egyptian tribute.
The bondholders contend that the Government got no quid pro quo out of Turkey for releasing her from those obligations. Therefore it appears to me that the British taxpayer and Cyprus have been damnified by this action, because if Turkey had fulfilled her obligations1 the revenues of Cyprus would have been released. The Government have calmly given away all this without attempting to make any bargain and without trying to get anything back for the taxpayers of this country. The point of the bondholders is that they claim in respect of the redemption of the bands the accumulated surplus revenues derived from Cyprus which, had they been used for the purpose of amortisation, would have been sufficient to extinguish by this time £1,400,000 of the loan, but which appear now to represent only about £500,000 in cash. If what we are told is true, then I think the Government, when investing this money, must have employed a very bad broker. I do not know what they invested this money in, but perhaps it was in Consols.
The next claim of these bondholders is this. They claim that compensation is due to them by the Government for having without their consent released Turkey from its obligation to pay the drawn bonds and for allowing the pledged revenues of Syria to pass into other hands free from liability and for relieving Egypt from continuing the payment of the Tribute after the 1891 and 1894 loans have been redeemed. Those are the claims of the bondholders, but it is well known to this House that in a business of this kind the bondholders do not press for their legal pound of flesh, but they do ask for fair treatment, and I ask the Government to get into touch with the Council of Foreign Bondholders who exist to protect bondholders when they are in difficulties, and I am certain they will find them perfectly reasonable, and they will be able to agree with them in regard to a scheme which will be fair to the bondholders, and which the Council would be prepared to recommend them to accept. I think these people have been treated with very scant courtesy by the Government in all these matters, because their interests have been dealt with without any consultation with them, and therefore I think they have a very just cause of complaint, which ought to be removed in a businesslike way. I press upon the Government the necessity of getting rid of all these uncertainties and difficulties, and I ask them to put the bondholders into something like the position they would have been in if they had been con- sulted before the Treaty of Lausanne was framed.
I do not think we can bring the proceedings on this discussion to a close without some words being said by one who was responsible, as head of the Government, for the Treaty which is now under discussion. I think it might be of service to the House if I were to sketch briefly the history of the years immediately preceding the discussion of the Treaty which may be found on the records of this House. I will undertake to do it without criticism, and I will merely give the facts, because I am sure those facts will speak for themselves. As has been said in the course of this Debate, it would have been a very different matter if it had been found possible to make the Treaty immediately or soon after the conclusion of the Great War.
There were various reasons, many of them good reasons, why that was not done. There is no particular blame to be attached to any particular individual and it is just part of the unhappy series of events. It was as long ago as the 15th May, 1919, when the Greek claim to Smyrna was recognised, and as was quite truly said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) that claim was recognised by a committee of experts sitting in Paris at the time of the Versailles Treaty, and the Greek troops were landed. The Treaty of Versailles went on until June, 1919, when the Treaty was ready and it was not until that Treaty was completed that there was time to turn our attention to the Treaty with the Turks. The Treaty of Sevres was not communicated to the Turkish Government till May, 1920. The delay was caused for reasons beyond the control of the parties concerned. It was partly caused by the pre-occupation of their experts, who had been working on the larger scheme of the Treaty of Versailles. At that time the hope still existed that the United States would come in, and take their part in it by accepting the Mandate over Armenia, but that was rejected on the 1st June, 1920, by the American Senate. That act of theirs which, of course, they were within their rights in performing, struck a great blow to our hopes, and undoubtedly made the settlement in the Near East far more difficult than it would otherwise have been but for that event.
In the meantime the Nationalist party, under the leadership of Mustapha Kemal, began to come into prominence, and we saw in the hinterland a resurgence of the Nationalist feeling that we all thought was dead. It was declared by the Nationalists that the Turkish people would never accept the Treaty of Sèvres, and the national army of Turkey moved forward to the shores of the Sea of Marmora, and as far as Brussa. There was some fighting with the Greeks who occupied Brussa, and it was following upon that event that the signature of the Turks was obtained for the Treaty. The leaders of the Nationalist party refused to accept that, and owing to the dissensions that occurred, neither side ratified that Treaty. Early in 1921 the Nationalist party severed their connection with the old Government of Constantinople, and the efforts of the British Government and other European Governments were directed towards making peace between the Turks and the Greeks. It was an almost hopeless effort from the first.
It was almost hopeless, for at the very time the Conference was called fighting was most unhappily resumed in Asia Minor, and continued at intervals until the summer of 1922, when the Greeks were finally defeated, Smyrna was captured by the Turks, and the massacres took place in that city. Do not let the House forget that while these things were happening, in the autumn of 1921 there was a secret treaty made by Monsieur Franklin-Bouillon between the French and the Turks which put an end to the state of war between France and Turkey. That in itself was an immense encouragement to the Turks to stand out against the European Powers, and to convince them that by that diplomacy, of which they are such masters, they could in any settlement play off France against Great Britain and thus halve the power of the Allies to control the terms of the Peace Treaty.
The Turks, flushed with their successes, turned towards the Straits. When that happened our Allies withdrew to the European side, and the Coalition Government, as one of its last acts, sent troops out to the Dardanelles to make a stand at Chanak, which was held by the Turks. That undoubtedly saved a revolution in Constantinople, which might have led to one of the worst tragedies in history. That was the situation which produced the conditions under which the Treaty was made. At that time Lord Curzon went out to Paris and arranged the armistice of Mudania. On the 20th of November the Conference at Lausanne met for the first time. Let the House mark how different the conditions were then, and the conditions that existed in 1919. Instead of a beaten Turkey you had a Turkey full of the new wine of the ideas of nationalism and national sovereignty. They had pursued a victorious career. They believed that none of the European nations would fight. They were perfectly prepared to fight themselves, and they had before them Allies, not banded together even as the Allies were during the making of the Treaties of Versailles and Sèvres, but Allies who were actually pursuing a different policy, and whom they felt convinced they could set one against the other. They knew perfectly well that the French and Italians would not fight, and that we knew it, and that it was an open question whether we would. That point was never put to the test. Looking back, however, one may doubt very much whether this country at any period after the War would have resumed it. In these circumstances, disappointed as we all feel at this Treaty, having regard to what happened in the War, I must confess that I think that Lord Curzon and Sir Horace Rumbold, with the weapons they had at that time, with the support they got at Lausanne, with the men they had to deal with—in those circumstances, I think they performed a remarkable feat in bringing about a Treaty of any kind and thereby ending the state of war.
Let us consider the objections that have been urged. Let me take the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham (Lieut.-Colonel Sir E. Grigg). Let me first of all touch upon what I think was the weakest part of his speech, and one which rather surprised me as coming from a man of his knowledge and his experience. He spoke about the position of the United States. He quoted a pious opinion of theirs expressed in these words:
That declaration was made long before the first battle, for the Straits.
That declaration would have been absolutely worthless if it had not been for the part we played—
indicated assent.
I agree if we had made that declaration we could not have got a single ship or a soldier from Chanak or Gallipoli. It was nothing but the power of the Sanctions that enabled us to get the freedom of the Straits as we did. While it is possible for America to have got advantage without incurring obligations of any kind, those privileges would not have been obtained without somebody incurring obligation. Just as it always has been the privilege of our country to sustain the White Man's burden in every country in the world, so once more we stand forth to effect what would not have been effected by any other means. My hon. and gallant Friend just as much as my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) certainly have in the past laid the greatest stress upon the importance of maintaining the freedom of the Straits, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend means that the price we are paying is too high a price for it. What alternative is there? What could we do? Would he have left the Turks in possession of Gallipoli, and of the land on the other side?
I do not want to interrupt my right hon. Friend, but as he challenges me, what I was arguing was that the concessions we secured, and which were described as the freedom of the Straits, do not really amount to the freedom of the Straits, and are not worth having at the price we are paying.
I am afraid I can only say that I believe the majority of the House differ from him, but time will prove which of us is right. We could not have secured what we have by any other means unless we were prepared to fight for it. I cannot understand what hon. Members mean when they say that the freedom secured is not worth securing. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs certainly thinks of every point that can be put; I understood him to say to-day that it was worth less because really we had got it by having a demilitarised zone. I gathered that he said it would be possible by the use of modern artillery to make the Straits impassable. I would say to him if he were here that if he would take charge of a battery of as many guns as he liked. I should be glad to sail a ship up and down the Straits. My right hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher) dwelt on another matter. He complained that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. Hoare) was playing on muted strings. I am sure I have used muted strings myself, and I have found that not infrequently—and I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree with me—you get out of muted strings more beautiful tones than out of a trumpet, even if it be a man's own.
In regard to the abolition of the Capitulations, my right hon. Friend admitted that they required revision, but that a period of transition was very desirable. I agree with him it would have been desirable if we could have obtained it. But here again, we must not lose sight of the essential fact that we were dealing, not with European people, but with Eastern people, who look at things in a different way to that which we Westerners look at them. You had these people who had come down from Central Asia Minor perfectly prepared to fight, and perfectly prepared to invade Western Thrace if the negotiations broke down. That was the difficulty we were up against the whole time. Nothing of the kind existed in making the Treaty of Versailles. Nothing of the kind existed in the making of the Treaty of Sevres. It really was a question between getting the best that you could or being prepared to allow the state of war with Turkey to continue. It was an extremely unpleasant condition, but it is no good blinking the facts, and not looking them straight in the face. What would have happened supposing the negotiations had broken down? Was this country prepared to fight? What would have happened? It would have meant that the Turkish Army once more would have been in Western Thrace. In the circumstances there was nothing else that could have been done. I think the majority of the House will take that view. My right hon. Friend takes a gloomy view of trade prospects. After all, that rests with Turkey. Turkey requires economic stability. She recognises that much, and that she can only get that by treating traders who go there properly. If she does not, then she will not get trade and she will suffer in consequence. I quite agree we shall suffer too, but in any case, had the Treaty not been made, and if she had remained in a state of war, there would have been more suffering still.
On the question of Christian minorities, I quite agree that Lord Curzon did everything a man could do at Lausanne to try to get special treatment for the Armenians, The situation, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, may have difficulty, because no country has been found to undertake a Mandate for Armenia. We have taken as many Mandates as we can. We have undertaken greater liabilities and greater responsibilities in trying to perform our duty to the world. It would have been perfectly impossible for us to have taken another, and, after all, I gather that the only guarantees that we hope may be of use are the guarantees that will be given by Turkey joining the League of Nations. That is the only hopeful element in the whole situation. The machinery of the League of Nations has been used in this Treaty. Turkey only awaits ratification to apply for membership. For the first time these problems, that have defied Europe for centuries, will be brought within the competence of the League of Nations, and a very great responsibility will rest on all the component countries to see if move cannot be done, through that medium, than has ever been accomplished before by the struggles of the various Christian countries of Western Europe.
I do not think I need say much about the position with regard to the Dominions. The Prime Minister answered that question in his speech last week. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oldham acknowledged in his speech that there was not much more to be said, as the Dominions had assented, as Lord Curzon and Sir Horace Rumbold had recommended. Whatever happened after we left office with regard to Canada, I have no doubt the Prime Minister will state in reply; but when we left office we had no idea but that all the Dominions were in complete agreement with us, as we believed at the time of the Imperial Conference. Much has been said about the gravity of the guarantee into which we have entered. That point has also been answered by the Prime Minister, but let me remind the House, that whatever the gravity of the guarantee may be, it is as nothing compared with the gravity of the, guarantee into which we entered by the Treaty of Versailles in Article 10 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. I do not think I need follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in his historical and ethnological excursions. I would say this, that when he spoke at length, and with such feeling, of the assistance he had from Dominion representatives all through the long sittings at Versailles, and then complained that we did not have the advantage of such assistance at Lausanne, may it not be that the experience those representatives had may have quite satisfied them?
I understand it is not the intention of those who moved this Amendment to press it to a Division. I gather that is so from the fact that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has already left the precincts of the Chamber, as he told me he would have to do. I will only conclude by saying what I told him in another part of the House. I was going to say, that I never like to say anything in a man's absence without his knowledge. I told him that I was going to tell the House that I believed the real reason he feels so disappointed at the results of this Treaty, is that during his long period of dictatorship he felt that he was the only real begetter of Treaties, and when he saw a Treaty begotten by another man, he said, "This is an illegitimate child." History alone will tell us whether the infant born at Lausanne may not live to be healthier and stronger than the one to which birth was given at Versailles.
Might I ask the indulgence of the House only for a minute or two, and mainly to appeal to the House to give us this Treaty now? I confess that had it not been for the necessity of coming to the House for the Bill, which has led to this very interesting Debate, I should have taken upon myself to have advised ratification weeks ago, and asked the House for an indemnity for having done so. The reason why I say that is, that every day that passes without ratification is a day of very serious loss. We have had questions addressed to us, and there have been reflections made during this two-days' Debate, about the Turks failing to do this, and the Turks failing to do that. But Turkey is under no obligation to do this or to do that. Turkey at the present time is, technically, in a state of war with us, and those provisions of the Treaty in front of us are not operative. Turkey has no obligations towards Christian people so far as the Lausanne Treaty is concerned. Turkey has no obligations with regard to British property so far as the Treaty of Lausanne is concerned, and it is because I am very anxious that Turkey should be bound by the Treaty of Lausanne without a moment's delay, because I am anxious that we can ask Turkey to fulfil the provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne and to observe contracts, that I hope this House, without further delay, will give me an opportunity of going ahead with ratification.
There is another thing. We have heard something about finance, and about bonds. I am perfectly certain that it would be indiscreet to discuss the situation of those bondholders now. Two answers have been given to questions about them. By those answers the Government stand. But there is something going on in Turkey just now from which I should like, without in the least interfering with Turkish subjects, and merely as a friendly co-operator, to be able to save Turkey, and that is not the legitimate financiers, not the big responsible bondholders, but the financial adventurer. Only a month or two ago, when I was in Turkey, he was buzzing about in every hotel, and we cannot get the financial position of Turkey put right, we cannot get such works as those referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), the legitimate development of Turkish resources, until Turkey and ourselves come into peaceful relations, and begin to help each other, Turkey in its way, and we in our way.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman was not referring to those who are interested in the Anatolian Railway as adventurers. They are amongst the most respectable financiers in this country.
I guarded myself against that. The combination that is interested in the Anatolian Railway is an exceedingly responsible, business, financial combination, including the Westminster Bank and Lloyds, and so on, but I am afraid they will find themselves in competition with certain others, on account of the operation of that purchase clause in the original agreement. If we can help Turkey in that way, we shall do Turkey an enormous service, and it is impossible for us to come in at all until we regularise our relations with Turkey. I only wish to give information on a point or two. I was asked what the position of Mosul now is. Well, it is no position. There is nothing doing. Turkey refuses to do anything—quite rightly—until we ratify. As I said before, Sir Percy Cox is ready to go and act for us, and the moment ratification takes place, he will begin his work—at least, I hope so. I am perfectly well aware of those debates in the Angora Assembly. I want to end them. Every day that those debates go on means an uncertain situation and a danger, and, I am sorry to say, the more difficulty I shall have in starting the Commission to work. Then the question was asked, why could we not separate the Straits Convention from the rest of the Treaty? The reply to that is perfectly simple, and quite definite. In Article 143 there is this provision:
"Each of the signatory Powers will ratify by one single instrument the present Treaty and the other instruments signed by it and mentioned in the Final Act of the Conference of Lausanne, in 80 far as these require ratification."
That is quite definite. If I were to try and separate the Straits Convention from; the other provisions of the Treaty, I should open the door to everything. Not a line of the Treaty would remain. Everything would have to be gone over again ab initio. I do not propose to undertake such a fool's task, I might almost say such a criminal task as that. Reference has again been made to the position of the Dominions. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman who made that reference that it was he who was misinformed, and not I. He was misinformed, for instance, about the Treaty of Sevres. The note I have is that the Dominion representatives took no part in the negotiations which led up to the Treaties of Peace with Austria, Bulgaria and Hungary, and the Treaty of Sevres, but all these Treaties were signed on behalf of the Dominions.
I happen to have looked at the Treaty of Sèvres, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman he is misinformed there.
How does the Treaty of Sevres reveal the presence of Dominion representatives in these negotiations?
They were mentioned as plenipotentiaries in the Preamble, and they all signed the Treaty.
I said they signed the Treaty, but they were not present. According to my information, they were not present, and they did not take part in the negotiations regarding the Treaties of Peace with Austria, Bulgaria or Hungary.
I think it is of importance that this fact should be established. My information is just the opposite.
My information is as I have given it, and that contradicts the statement made earlier in the day. So far as Canada is concerned, the statement I made to the House a week ago is absolutely accurate so far as the papers are concerned. I said this:
"The Canadian Government have said, with a full knowledge of the Treaty, that she would be perfectly willing to accept the decision of the Government, and would take no exception to what His Majesty's Government did."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st April, 1924; col. 2068, Vol. 171.]
That is the position. I expressed, as my opinion, afterwards, I believe, that in all the circumstances it would accept the obligations. So far as the statement of the Canadian Government is concerned, that extract which I have read from the speech is accurate, and it has not been denied by the Prime Minister of Canada. The only other point is that every other Dominion which has been in exactly the same position as Canada, namely, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa, received exactly the same information, were present at the Imperial Conference when the statement was made, and agreed to support the ratification of the Treaty. I hope the House will not only now give me the Second Reading of this Bill, but that the arrangement, in consequence of which this second day has been given, that the whole of this consequential work shall be given without undue discussion, will now be carried out; and that we shall be able to finish this much prolonged matter.
8.0 P.M.
I only want to say a few words—[HON.MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—in reply to the two speeches to which we have just listened. I will sit down before time. I am not going to make any attempt to talk the Bill out. The Prime Minister complained, first of all, that we ought to have got this Treaty ratified some time ago. That is not a matter over which private Members have any control. The Treaty could have been put down for discussion some time ago. There is a great deal which requires to be discussed, and a great deal which has not been made plain in the discussions we have had so far, particularly the nature of the guarantees, as to which very little information has been given to the House. With regard to what the Prime Minister said about the impossibility of cutting out the Straits Convention, surely we could do exactly what America was going to do with regard to the Covenant of the League of Nations? We could ratify the Treaty with the reservation of the Straits Convention, and then the Prime Minister could go to Turkey and to the other Powers concerned and could offer to ratify the whole of the rest of the Treaty at once, subject to the reservation of this Straits Convention. It was a Convention which Turkey always disliked and which she resisted throughout, and out of which neither we nor Turkey obtain any conceivable advantage.
With regard to what the leader of the Opposition said about the advantage of the freedom of the Straits, why, freedom of the Straits as contained in this Treaty is nothing but an empty phrase! What was necessary in order to achieve freedom of the Straits was a wide demilitarised zone on either side of the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus and the Sea of Marmora, with the occupation of that zone by an international garrison, as arranged for under the Treaty of Sèvres. What we have got is a much narrower zone than that which was thought absolutely essential by the French and British naval and military staffs. We have not got any occupation of Gallipoli by international garrisons, but by a Turkish gendarmerie of unlimited numbers. Lord Curzon at Lausanne points out that these Turkish gendarmerie are the same as troops without guns, and that they can have them in unlimited numbers. Further, Lord Curzon says on one occasion that he has been looking at the map and that he sees that Kavak, the great Turkish military camp, lies only one mile outside the lines of Bulair. Further, Lord Curzon points out that while there are not troops on the Gallipoli Peninsula, there are troops only one mile outside, on the threshold—that is the very word he used—and that there are 12,000 men at Constantinople, and the Turks are allowed to have as many ships and submarines as they like moving up and down the waters in the demilitarised zone, also the power of sowing mines all across the entrance to the Dardanelles. It was mines that were the great obstruction to the advance of our ships in the Dardanelles campaign.
When these skilful and patient negotiators came back from Lausanne they might say, "We have got something for you. We have got something which is called the Straits Convention, some reward for the long dreary months of negotiations which we had at Lausanne." I reply that they got nothing, nothing except an onerous commitment on the one hand and a dangerous illusion which they call the Straits Convention on the other hand. With regard to the interesting survey which the leader of the Opposition gave us of the incidents which led up to the conference at Lausanne, it was extremely interesting, very fair and far different from the account which Lord Curzon gave of the same incidents in another place when he threw over the whole of that policy which my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) so eloquently defended in this House. He threw it over although he of all men was responsible for that policy, was primarily responsible for it as Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
The Leader of the Opposition spoke of liking people who played on muted strings rather than those who blew their trumpets. J suppose he was referring to Lord Curzon's speech in another place in which he said this Convention was the greatest diplomatic achievement ever attained and a matter for the greatest self congratulation, an indulgence which I feel sure the Noble Marquis would only permit himself in the most exceptional circumstances. The Noble Marquis said there had been no serious criticism of the Treaty. He said, "Since the Treaty was circulated there has been no responsible criticism in either House." The answer to that is quite easy. Immediately after the Treaty was circulated Parliament rose and we only assembled to bear the sentence of our Dissolution. Thereafter there was the Election, which must have been within Lord Curzon's cognisance, although for reasons which have never been publicly explained he himself took no part in it. Therefore this Debate was the first opportunity we had had of discussing this Treaty, and it was very remarkable that in no quarter of the House was there found a wholehearted supporter of this Treaty, unless I except the very interesting and impressive speech which was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Kennington (Lieut.-Colonel T. Williams). It was a coincidence that in the very week in which the Labour party obtained from the bosom of Lord Curon's family a brilliant and welcome recruit, should have found, not indeed in his relative but in another member of the same party, the most whole-hearted and effective advocate of his policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]
The Leader of the Opposition referred to my hon. and gallant Friend's reference to the American Declaration and called it a pious declaration. I say that declaration was a safe way and really just as efficacious a way as the farcical method of this Straits Convention of obtaining the freedom of the Straits. It was a declaration which was made before the Straits Convention was ever signed. Had we associated ourselves with that declaration we could do as much as could be done by the farcical provisions of the Straits Convention to ensure the freedom of the Straits. How are we getting the freedom of the Straits now? We are purchasing it by means of a guarantee which may quite easily bring this country into the secular struggle between Turkey and Russia. It is a guarantee of the most dangerous kind. It is childish to say it goes no further than the guarantee under the League of J Nations. Lord Curzon made it absolutely clear in his speeches at Lausanne that it was an additional and supplementary guarantee, and if this casus fœdons ever arises in the Black Sea we shall be in no position to consider impartially and judicially on the Council of the League of Nations what action should be taken. We are bound beforehand by Lord Curzon's, to use his own words, "absolute assurance," of the inviolability of the demilitarised zone and of Constantinople. We are not in a position to wriggle out of that. [HON. MEMBEES: "Divide!"] I say if this action is taken the responsibility will certainly not lie on the Liberal party, nor will primary responsibility lie on the Conservative party, although they were in office at the time this Treaty was signed, nor will primary responsibility rest upon Lord Curzon, nor will primary responsibility rest upon the ill-starred Government who may have to take steps to fulfill our obligations under this Treaty. The primary responsibility will rest upon the Labour party and upon each member of the present Cabinet, and I do appeal to them, before it is too late, not to take this step which is fraught with so much danger to the interest and peace of this country.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment which stands in my name and that of some of my hon. Friends. The Amendment was put down solely in order to get information which I think the House was really entitled to. It was not intended to block a settlement. I hope, therefore, the House will give me leave to withdraw it now.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Treaty of Peace (Turkey) [Expenses]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
Resolved,
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of expenses incurred under any Act of the present Session to carry into effect the Treaty of Peace between His Majesty and certain other Powers, and certain Conventions, Protocols, and Declarations connected therewith."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[ Mr. William Graham. ]
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Unemployment Insurance (No. 3) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Amendment of S. 2 of 13 and 14 Geo. 5, c. 2.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.— [ The Prime Minister. ]
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Small Holdings, Scotland
I beg to move, one, it is, at the same time, a rather narrow one, but I have deliberately confined my Motion to this rather narrow point, in order that there may be no danger of our failing to grapple with it and, if possible, to find some solution for what is admitted to be a very serious and grave difficulty. My Motion speaks about the security of tenure which it was the object of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts to confer, and I want the smallholders in Scotland to be assured that this object will be carried out. The chief object of those Acts was, as every one knows, to give the smallholders security of tenure. By security of tenure, of course, no one has ever meant absolute fixity of tenure. It has always been realised that, if a smallholder who is given this so-called security of tenure has farmed his holding badly, or has in any way misconducted himself, or if the land were required for some special higher public purpose, then there should be power to compel him to leave his holding. Those are exceptions to which no one objects, but there is another exception, which is the subject of my Motion to-night.
When it was first put in, it was considered to be of no importance, and, indeed, in my opinion at that time, it was of no importance. That exception is contained in Section 19 of the Small Landholders Act, 1911, under which it was possible to eject a smallholder from his holding if anyone bought the holding and required it for occupation by himself, and it was the only landed estate that he had. According to this Section, occupation of a holding by a landlord for the purpose of personally residing thereon is deemed a reasonable purpose for which the holding may be resumed. When that was passed, I understand that it was in order to meet the case of the native, we will say, of a Highland glen, who had left his Highland home, had perhaps made some money, and desired to come back and live again on his ancestral holding. As far as I can find, there are no statistics to show in how many cases it operated in that way, and I think I am right in saying that, as far as that particular object of this Section is concerned, the Act has been a dead letter. Since the War, however, it has assumed a new importance, and this particular provision is being used in such a way that, in my opinion, if it is developed, it may end in driving a coach-and-four through the whole Act, as far as security of tenure is concerned.
It has assumed a new importance, of course, because so many estates to-day are being sold, and, as the estates are being broken up, the small holdings are being offered for sale individually. When a small holding is offered for sale, the holder who is actually in possession—the tenant—may be able and willing to buy it, and, of course, if that is so, no harm is done. On the other hand, he may have no money to buy it, and he is placed in the position of probably having to turn out without anywhere to go. His case is bad enough, but the case of the smallholder who, perhaps, is able to buy, is bad also, because he is faced with this position: Although he may be able to buy the holding, he may not want to buy it unless he knows, or fears, that, if he does not buy it, it may be sold to someone who will desire to evict him. He cannot be quite sure what is going to happen, but he is bound to make an attempt to get it. Probably he does not offer as high as some to begin with, and, before he knows where he is, it is bought over his head; but in any case the whole tendency is for prices to be forced up against the sitting tenant if he desires to buy his holding. It is quite obvious, as anyone will see, that that is found to be the result. In many cases a smallholder has been thrown out of his holding although, if he had known, he would have been able to make arrangements to remain where he was.
Whenever a holding is for sale, there is nearly always a little haggling. A man does not offer at first the highest price to which he thinks he can go, and there have been many cases where, through that little hesitation, the smallholder has lost his chance of retaining his home for himself. Of course, it may be objected that no great public harm is done, because, even it a smallholder is turned out, another goes in, and the sum total of smallholders remains the same. That, however, is a short-sighted argument, because in a matter of this kind it is not the number of evictions that counts so much as the uncertainty and the consternation which is created in the minds of smallholders. The idea of giving security of tenure to these men was to give them encouragement to put every ounce they could into their work, with the knowledge that the more they worked the better it would be for themselves, and that any advantage from the improvement of the holding through their work would innure to their benefit, and would not be confiscated, or at any rate appropriated, by someone else.
There is some reason to fear that this particular provision is being used to kill the whole small holdings movement. In cases where, we will say, a small holding adjoins a large farm—I know of such cases myself—the small holding has been bought by the farmer, nominally for his son, or even for his daughter, and the Land Court has had to give them occupation of that small holding, which was immediately added to the farm and became a part of the farm, being worked in every way as a part of the farm, and not as a separate holding at all. There seems to be no reason why that should not be extended, and why those who desire to get rid of this system of small holdings should not, by acquiring them in that way, defeat the whole movement. I see no reason why there should not be collusive sales, whereby a man might buy a small holding, hold it for a year or so, and then give it up again. There is a further difficulty however, and here the Government are specially interested, because of recent years not only this Government but previous Governments have expended large sums of money in attempting to settle smallholders on the land, particularly of recent years ex-service men. According to this provision which I am taking exception to there is no reason why these small holdings should not now be sold by the landlord to a new proprietor, who is able to evict the tenant and appropriate a great deal of the money which has been expended by the State for the purpose of settling ex-service men and others on the land.
These are a few of the difficulties which have been experienced by smallholders, particularly in the North of Scotland, and which have created absolute consternation. What are the remedies? My Motion proposes to call on the Government to take immediate steps to assure the smallholder the security of tenure which was intended. Certain suggestions have been put forward to deal with this undoubtedly difficult problem. The first is one which has been embodied in a Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton). He takes the quick and ready but very effective method of merely repealing the words which I have read out from the Act so as to make it impossible for the landlord to evict a tenant merely because he wants to go and live there himself. That is, I think, probably, all things considered, the best method of dealing with it, but there is a second one which has been suggested by which the tenant might be given a right of pre-emption of the holding at a price to be fixed by the Land Court. The Land Court already fixes rents and does a great deal more in connection with small holdings, and it is well qualified also to fix the capital value of a holding, and if necessary it might be advisable to give a smallholder some assistance to help him to buy his holding in these circumstances. There is a third suggestion which I would put forward for the consideration of the Government. At one time it was thought the Land Court had a discretion in the matter of ordering a tenant to leave his holding in these circumstances. Whatever doubt there may have been was removed by the Act of 1911, which put it down clearly and made it a statutory right. At present if a millionaire comes over to the Land Court and says, "I have bought this holding, it is the only land I have and I desire to live upon it," there is nothing the Land Court can do to prevent him getting the holding. It is worth consideration whether the situation might not be met to some extent by giving the Land Court a discretion in the matter so that they will be able to weigh up the pros and cons of the situation and perhaps say it would do more harm than good to turn out this tenant, and therefore they would refuse to make the order.
Clause 1 of the Evictions Bill.
When you look at the matter in that way you see that there is a similarity with another question we have recently been considering. The Court might also look at the possibility of alternative accommodation. There again you get on to the same matter. I have not put this forward in any sense as a hostile Motion. I am sure the Secretary for Scotland will recognise that. About a month ago Liberal Members of Parliament went to see him as a deputation to urge upon him the necessity of doing something to meet this difficulty. We had a very kindly and sympathetic reception, as we always get from the right hon. Gentleman, and he assured us that the Government were going to take the whole question into consideration and in time tell us exactly what they proposed to do. The right hon. Gentleman has now had, in my opinion, adequate time in which to evolve a policy, and my object in putting down this Motion is really to give him an opportunity to tell us what the Government policy now is.
I beg to second the Motion.
The House has recently been concerned in endeavouring to find a method which would prevent a man who has no work from being turned out of a house which does not belong to him. To-night we are asking the Government to devise a method to prevent a man who has work from being turned out of his holding—a very much simpler job. The class of people with whom we are particularly concerned, the crofters of Scotland, are very well known to those who come from North of the Tweed, but I think it will not be amiss to quote from a Report of the Land Commission in 1916 a very striking sentence in which they sum up the work that this class of people do. It is as follows:— secured that object, but Section 2 provided that resumption might be given on certain grounds, and among others to the landlord for the purpose of personally occupying and residing on the croft, those words being subject to the general words, provided that it was for the good of the holding and of the estate. A case was brought in 1889 under that Section and a decision given which I think was of doubtful law. It was not appealed against, and so it stood. As apparently there was some doubt about the law which that case represented, when, the 1911 Act was brought in, Section 19 was included, which specifically laid it down that that should be a definite ground for a landlord resuming possession of his holding. I should like to refer to the reports of the Debates which took place in this House on the Act of 1911, with special reference to Clause 19, to show the intention of the Clause and how far the results have taken us away from it. Mr. Ure, who was then Lord Advocate, said:—
The Mover of the Resolution has rightly said that we must not pay too much attention to the actual number of cases of resumption which have been brought into court. The mere fact of one case having been brought brings everyone in the same position into jeopardy. Nobody knows when his case may be the next. The actual numbers of the cases in the courts have not been very large. In 1919 there were 17 cases, in 1920 there were 38 cases and in 1921 there were 42 cases. I have not been able to get the numbers for 1922, but the report stated:
Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to quote two letters which I have received recently, and which are illustrative of the state of affairs. These letters are from crofters in the Orkneys. One letter says:
From what district has that letter come?
South Ronaldshay. The second letter says: These two letters are only taken at random from a whole sheaf of letters, and they fairly represent the state of affairs that exists.
I will now refer to another place in the Shetlands. It is an estate which is in the hands of bondholders, over a debt which, I believe, was incurred by the present landlord's father or grandfather. There are between 30 and 40 people who have bought their holdings at between 25 to 30 years' purchase. The holdings are worth, on a fair market valuation, between 10 to 15 years' purchase. About 100 more people are under notice, and offers of under 15 years' purchase are rejected. When an offer is made by a tenant on the estate, what happens is this: The estate is in the hands of a firm of solicitors in Edinburgh. The crofter is asked if he wishes to purchase his croft, and he is told that he can begin at 25 years' purchase. A great many of these crofters are not able to make an offer, but those that are able, and endeavour to try to keep in the old, home, make offers. They put in an offer for 25 years' purchase. Then they get an answer back from Edinburgh that it is not enough. Then they make an offer of 27 years' purchase, but that is not enough. So it goes on, until there are cases of between 34 and 40 years' purchase. These terms are being squeezed out of these men, and that all through a debt incurred years and years ago, and these are men to whom the 1886 Act was supposed to give security of tenure.
I hope I have said enough to show how burning is this question in parts of Scotland where a large proportion of the population consists of this class of smallholders. I should like, however, to say a few words on the wider aspect. What more satisfactory state of affairs could we hope for in agriculture than fixity of tenure, fair rents and the land court. That is what we thought we had for the smallholders, and that is what I hope we may have eventually for the whole of Scotland. When we have that, there will be no need for outside protection. The farmer will be able to look after himself. When the smallholder is compelled by the methods of which I have alluded to purchase his croft at a high price he has to borrow the money and borrow it at a high rate of interest. Then when he purchases his croft he is no longer in the fortunate position of a crofter, but he has to take on himself the burdens of a landlord, So that instead of having only to find the small rent which he had to find before, he has to find a heavy rate of interest on an unfair capital value and also to take on the burdens of a landowner. The result is that many of the men who try to do it will be broken, and the very class whom we hope to help and keep on their holdings will not only be heart-broken but broken in pocket, and will have to go sooner or later.
My hon. Friend spoke of the lines of approach by which the difficulty might be met. He referred to two main ways, one of which is embodied in a Bill which I am promoting in this House, and which is down for Second Reading to-night. The other is by way of giving the right of pre-emption of the property. My first thought was that that would be the best way of approach, and I drafted a Bill on those lines. When I went into the matter more deeply, I came to the conclusion that it would not do for various reasons, the first being that it put the crofter into the position of a landlord when he may desire to remain a crofter. It takes from him the capital that he should have in hand to put into the farming. It ties him down to a place which he might desire to leave, and also it requires financing on a fairly large scale. Therefore I think it far more desirable to approach by the other lines of re-establishing, if we can, the security of tenure which has been lost. In the Bill now before the House, as drafted, the offending words are simply taken away, but we realise that there are difficulties in the way which ought to be met. At this point I should like to say that the class to whom the powers of resumption were intended to be given by the 1886 Act has, by the efflux of time, practically disappeared. So if we were to stand by this Bill as it is now drafted very little hardship would be caused. At the same time a form of words might be found which would get over the difficulty, and some such form as this which has been suggested to me by the hon. Member for Forfar (Mr. Falconer)—
Do I understand the hon. Member to propose to read something out of a Bill which is coming before the House?
No, the suggestion made is this, that the resumption of the holding under these Acts shall not be authorised for occupation by the landlord for the purpose of personal residence thereon unless he or his predecessor in title has, prior to the creation of the existing tenure, occupied the holding as his only landed estate and resided thereon. That contains the idea which might, either in those words or some other words, be inserted in a Bill, which might meet objections, which might possibly be raised on the other side. My hon. Friend, who moved the Resolution, referred very properly to the very great sympathy with which we were met by the Secretary for Scotland when we went to him on a deputation. I know that we have a sympathy in this matter, but to-night we are asking for something more than sympathy; we are asking for some action. If this matter is not attended to, not only will individual farmers suffer, but we may see the undesirable result of illegal combinations being formed, or combinations being formed to carry out purposes which would lead to very regrettable results that we desire to avoid, and that can be avoided by action if it is taken now. We are only asking the Secretary for Scotland to put straight what has gone wrong owing to the lack of foresight of the people who originally drafted the Acts of 1886 and 1911.
In rising to address the House for the first time, I ask it to give me that indulgence which it is its habit to extend to Members similarly situated. I hope that I shall not weary it by an overdraft on its time in my speech to-night. All of us on this side of the House heard the case put by the hon. Member for Central Aberdeenshire (Major M. Wood) and the hon. Member for the Orkney and Shetland Islands (Sir R. Hamilton) with very great sympathy and interest. I am sure that the question will receive sympathetic consideration not only from the Secretary for Scotland, but from all parties in this House. Last week we heard a great deal, as the Member for Orkney and Shetland has reminded us, about evictions, from the houses which they did not own, of people who had not work. Although I know that certain Members above the Gangway on the opposite side profess to think that we on this side have no sympathy with those people, at the same time I think that this House has shown a very real sympathy indeed for the people who are being evicted in the South-West of Scotland and other parts of the country.
I am sure that I speak for Members on this side particularly when I say that we do sympathise very much with anybody who is in any way unfairly or unjustly evicted from his home. But if this sympathy is felt, as it is, for those people in the towns, it should also be felt, perhaps even to a greater extent, for the people who live in the country and on small holdings, and for this reason. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland has just referred to the case of one man whose family had been on the farm for 100 years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Five hundred years"] I think that, in addition to the sympathy which one feels for anybody who is evicted from his house, one must feel an enormously added sympathy when a person has been evicted from a farm which his family has held for so long, or which he has himself even for a comparatively few years. We who live in the country know what an enormous amount of affection our country always breeds in us, and how we love our homes in the country—something which does not perhaps come into the life of the man who dwells in the city, which is his misfortune.
If he has got that love of his home of which he has been deprived, and has to undergo the immense suffering and inconvenience which it means in any event, the case calls for very great sympathy from anybody who has to consider it. That is one point of view. There is another point of view, from which I think we realise that we ought to help all these small landholders as much as we possibly can. It is simply this. As has been explained to us already to-night, they are a particularly fine and deserving breed of men. I do not see the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) present. He claimed the other night that the people who lived in the south-west of Scotland were the finest type of Scotsmen. I do not want to enter into an argument with the hon. Member as to which is the finest type of Scotsmen, but I am sure that he would be sympathetic with me if he were hero when I say that the people who live in the Highlands and in the north-east of Scotland on crofts and small holdings in the country are also an exceedingly fine body.
The whole lot of us are exceedingly fine.
We have already heard from the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland of the things that these people do. I would like for a few moments to elaborate that case, because it appeals to me most strongly. I have seen the people who live in these parts. I know them and know what fine men they are, and I know how it is that, by fighting continually against difficulties, against a hard climate, by struggling on a stony and unsympathetic soil, they have eked out their existence for generations, and in so doing have brought up a magnificent lot of men whom this country and the Empire and the very world cannot possibly afford to lose. Therefore, from a national point of view as well as from a purely sympathetic point of view, we must do all that we can to see that these people are not wrongfully dispossessed. In addition to that, these people have undoubtedly got a promise from Parliament that they would get what is practically security of tenure. The 1911 Act was largely designed with that object. It seems that, owing to what was quite an unforseeable flaw in the Act, they are being deprived of one of the benefits that Parliament intended most emphatically to grant them. That is another reason why we should try to bring in some proposal which will help them. I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will come forward with some scheme which will put an end to these evictions and the feeling of uncertainty which has been referred to.
When the 1911 Act was being passed, one of the principal arguments in favour of it was that it would serve to reduce emigration. I am not going to enter into the vexed question as to what are the causes of emigration from various parts of Scotland. Everyone will be united in thinking, however, that if you see what is apparently the cause, or what might become the cause, of the further emigration of such men as we are considering now, and if that cause is capable of being stopped, it is in the interests of Scotland and of Great Britain as a whole to see that that cause is stopped. I, therefore, add that to my already growing list of reasons for the stopping of these evic- tions. There is one point where I think we must take a certain amount of care. I can bring this point quite freely to a House which, last week, showed so much sympathy with the other side, when they expressed their dislike of throwing on the owner of a house the whole of the weight of leaving a man in his home and sitting rent free. There was general sympathy expressed in the House for these house owners. Therefore, if you merely take away the power of pre-emption from the landlord, it is possible that you may be putting a very considerable burden on existing landlords without really meaning to do anything of the sort. I do not want it to be thought that I am in any way trying to block this Motion. I am whole-heartedly with the Mover and Seconder of the Motion, but I do want to put this point before the House.
As has been pointed out, if a tenant has to buy his small holding he takes upon, himself not only the interest on the borrowed purchase money, but also the burden of a landowner. That is going to prove a very serious reason to prevent him from purchasing his holding, even if he wanted to do so for other reasons. If you are not to allow the purchaser—I think quite properly—to evict the existing tenant in order to take possession himself, you are also going to prevent anybody else wanting to buy that land. So what you are doing is practically making these small holdings unsaleable. While I have not the slightest sympathy with people who take the course of trying to extract a wicked and unreasonable price out of the crofter, who is practically compelled to buy his land, at the same time I think that the House will show sympathy with the landowner in dealing with what is a legitimate point. I do not want to push it further, and I do not know that this is an occasion on which we should consider measures for overcoming these difficulties. But I suggest that it may be possible for the existing machinery of land purchase in Scotland by the Board of Agriculture to be further extended, in order that they may step in to purchase land with a view of feuing or letting it on terms to the smallholder, and thereby perhaps meet this difficulty. Possibly we shall hear something about that later. It is because I feel so keenly that something must be done to solve this very urgent problem, and because I feel that this House, perhaps more than any previous House, will deal with it on sympathetic and broad lines, that I have given this Motion my most hearty support.
9.0 P.M.
Before I make the few remarks that I wish to make, I would like to extend my personal congratulations to my hon. Friend who has just spoken, on the excellence of his maiden speech. I feel sure I am voicing the minds of Scottish Members when I say that we feel that we have an eloquent and a liberal spokesman, even though he is sitting on the opposite side of the House, to add to the distinction of our Scottish Debates. I would like also to congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend who moved this Motion on his luck in the Ballot. I am certain of this, that every Scottish Member who is at all interested, as we all are, in the rural life of Scotland, would have chosen this subject as soon as any other, had he been equally successful in the Ballot. Security of tenure in rural Scotland has been a great gift. In the Highlands particularly, it has recreated rural life. I shall not go back to the days before the 1886 Act, the Crofters' Act, when there was no such security of tenure and there was no compensation for any improvements which the crofter or smallholder effected upon his small holding. The life of a crofter and smallholder in Scotland, and particularly in the Highlands, has been completely altered by the Crofters' Act of 1886, and particularly by the gift and the right of security of tenure. The reason is not far to seek. If a man who occupies a holding has grave uncertainty as to his future, he cannot, human nature being what it is, put the whole of his heart and soul into making that holding an efficient and sufficient one.
The moment the small landholder in the Highlands received security of tenure, his attitude towards his holding was completely altered. He was able to pay the fair rent fixed by the Land Court, and it is a most extraordinary fact that the moment he felt he had security of tenure and that his rent was a reasonable one, there was scarcely a case of default in the whole of Scotland. It may be realised then how serious was the view taken by the small land-owning community in Scotland when it first became apparent that there was, as has been said to-night, a likelihood of a coach-and-four being driven through their rural charter—the Land Acts of Scotland—and that they were liable to be deprived of their great anchor and hope, namely, security of tenure. I quite agree that the cases which have arisen are very few. I am informed by an hon. Member there have been 100 in three years, but that does not alter my point. Had there been only one case in which it was held by the High Courts of Scotland that the principle of security of tenure was no longer safe, then there was bound to be a recurrence of the old uncertainty, of the grave fears which existed in the days before 1886. I am convinced that all of us, from whatever side of the House we may speak, and whatever may be our interests in land or anything else, have made up our minds that, so far as we can speak for Scotland, we are determined to have real, genuine, security of tenure for these men. I need not add to the brilliant description of these men which has been given by my hon. Friend who has just sat down. He spoke from his heart, and he spoke the truth. The first general principle which we are here to assert is, that in the national interests of the country and in the interests of the Empire it would be foolishness of the worst kind to endanger, in any way, the security of tenure of men of that type.
I am not going to go into the various decisions of the Courts. They have varied in their sympathy towards the landowner, but I am quite convinced that the framers of the Acts of 1886 and 1911 never intended the words "reasonable purpose" to apply so widely as to include even private houses or mansions in the city. The intention was quite clear all through, that a man who had received compensation and the right to occupy a holding near at hand of the same type, at the same rent, might be asked to give up his present holding for public purposes. That has always been a recognised fact, but only upon the condition, which was clearly expressed in the 1886 Act, that another holding of the same value and of the same sentimental interest to the man himself should be available for him in that locality. It is true the cases in the Courts have been few, but what of the other cases which have not come into the Courts? What of the cases which were referred to by the Seconder of the Motion? I myself know of many cases where the crofter, having a strong and long sentimental attachment to the land of his fathers, would rather die than sacrifice his holding, and such a man has been driven, at a time when prices were high, to purchase his holding. We do not hear of those cases. What is the result to a crofter in that position? One of the great advantages which accrued to the agricultural industry in Scotland simultaneously with the grant of security of tenure was a reasonable fairness in the incidence of rates to the crofter. By forcing the crofter to purchase you are forcing him to pay the rates of occupier and owner and, in many cases, that means doubling and even trebling the amount which he formerly had to pay in rent.
There are old taxes of the 10th, 11th, and 12th century in Scotland—like a tax in my own constituency which is called the Bishop's tax. The crofter has to pay these in the shape of teinds or tithes. The people of a whole parish in Ross-shire—Newhall—have had to purchase their holdings and, in addition, they have to pay these ancient taxes which in the interests of everybody concerned should be immediately abolished. Coming to the remedies, one which has been suggested by my hon. Friend who spoke last is pre-emption. In my judgment it is a bad remedy, and if I understand the rural population of Scotland aright, it is a, remedy they do not wish to have. It was obvious when one considered the recent case of Lewis that, in spite of the fact that land was handed over for nothing, the crofters would rather pay a rent fixed by an impartial court than have the land gifted to them with the necessity of having to pay the rather crude and irregular incidence of taxation which one finds in the remoter islands. The other remedy mentioned is one often discussed during housing Debates in relation to the urban side of industry rather than the rural, and it is alternative accommodation. It is a remedy which ought to be kept in view by the Secretary for Scotland.
I am certain that if a holder can get reasonable compensation and an equally good holding near at hand and if he feels that his holding is not being taken away from him from purely personal and spiteful reasons—I do not know a single case of that kind, but a holder may regard it in that light—I believe he would be perfectly content to go to the alternative holding, provided the holding which he occupied was really required for public purposes. But the best remedy of all is the remedy which has been suggested in the Bill. It is a short and succinct Clause dealing competently and thoroughly with the difficulties of the situation. If these words are abolished, in my judgment, you will have what was intended by both Acts, namely, reasonable and genuine security of tenure. In dealing with these remedies, may I invite the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to one point of importance in dealing with this subject, which is admittedly a particularly difficult one? There is at the present moment a difference between the compensation paid to the landholder or crofter under the 1886 Act and the compensation which is paid to a statutory small tenant under the 1911 Act.
Under the 1911 Act you can get compensation only if you are dispossessed of your holding under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, but my right hon. Friend must realise that the real hard cases are not under the Crofters Act of 1886, but under the new Acts, the Act of 1911 and the recent Settlement Act, and these Acts are very peculiarly the interest of the present and of the last House of Commons, because, as my hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out, State money has gone in a very large proportion to the establishment and equipment of these holdings, and, in our judgment, it is very unfair that a new man should be entitled to get the benefit of money which was spent in the interests of an ex-service man while he himself has never done a hand's turn to equip or benefit that croft. Accordingly, my right hon. Friend must, in my Judgment, review the whole subject of compensation, and, if I may go a step further, I should like him to consider whether it would not now be advisable, when he is dealing with this subject, to give compensation in accordance with the phraseology of the Act of 1886, which is as follows: I think my right hon. Friend must take that into his purview at the present moment. I have heard all my hon. Friends who have spoken to-night mention the fact that they have been received with Sympathy. Well, I have been a long time in this House, and how many times I have been received with sympathy, even by my own Governments in the past! [An HON. MEMBER: "And have received with sympathy!"] Yes, and with practical sympathy. I would press upon my right hon. Friend that here he has a chance which no Scottish Secretary has ever had before, where he has the entire House of Commons in his favour ready to support him through thick and thin, not only because they feel that there is a great personal injustice to an individual smallholder on account of the strict interpretation of the Act, but for a further and a better reason, because we all believe, as the nation as a whole believes, that everything we can do to maintain and to strengthen the holdings of a stock of that kind on the land of Scotland we should do.
I believe that in every quarter of the House the proposal of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen (Major Wood) will be unanimously accepted, but I could not quite follow when he rather made an insinuation that the present Secretary for Scotland might not be as anxious to stand for the interests of the crofter as are other sections of the House.
I made no such accusation as that.
I certainly heard the hon. Member state that some three weeks ago he and his friends had visited the Secretary for Scotland, and that three weeks was long enough, I think he said—
Adequate.
was adequate time in which a Labour Secretary for Scotland should equip himself for dealing with what is a very intricate subject. While I agree that the right hon Gentleman ought to be pushed by every possible means, legal and otherwise, to set about this business, still I think it is only fair to the present Secretary for Scotland, and to the present Administration, to draw the attention of Scotland to the fact that these complaints have been going on since 1917, and that there have been successive Administrations in power during these years. If the present Secretary for Scotland is only to be given three weeks' time as adequate in which to deal with the matter, what will the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen say of previous Secretaries for Scotland, belonging to his own party or to the Coalition party?
The difference between the present Secretary for Scotland and others is that this is the first we have got to express sympathy with us, and I can assure the hon. Member that I have been in opposition the whole time I have been in this House, and that I am not responsible for what other Secretaries for Scotland have done.
I should certainly not say that the hon. and gallant Member could be held responsible for delays in a question of this sort. I believe the hon. and gallant Member is one of the few hon. Members of this House who have taken a keen personal interest in this movement, but I think he ought to be fair to the present Secretary for Scotland, and I do not think he was fair. If it were to get out that three weeks is an adequate time for a Labour Secretary for Scotland to deal with this question, and if the Secretary for Scotland finds to-night that at any rate by 11 o'clock he cannot deal with it, then it might cause some suspicions in Scotland that the present Secretary is not the agile and active man that we suppose him to be.
There was a Liberal Secretary for Scotland for four years.
I am coming to that. I want to impress upon the House the fact that there have been Secretaries for Scotland since 1917, and that these grievances have been going on since 1917, and are still with us. Having said that—and that is the only contentious thing I can think of—I would observe that the speech of the hon. Member for Kincardine and Western (Mr. Barclay Harvey) was heard with considerable attention, as indicating the sort of harmony and agreement with which, in the first Scottish Home Rule Parliament, we may proceed to deal with purely Scottish questions, but I would like to draw his attention to the fact that it is hardly a fair analogy between the case of a house proprietor who has not been paid his rent and the case of a crofter who is paying his rent, and that an eviction, in the one case, of a man who is paying his rent is surely a very grievous hardship and not at all to be compared to a case such as he cited, and such as was discussed in this House, where a house proprietor was not being paid his rent.
What I intended to convey was that the position of the crofter was one that caused even more sympathy than the position of the other man. I thought the crofter had even greater cause for sympathy.
I think the hon. Member went a little further than that. He drew attention to what he considered to be a grave hardship on the proprietor of the estate, and I am suggesting to him that there is hardly any analogy between the hardship that might be suffered by the proprietor of the estate where rents were being paid, and the case of the proprietor of another kind of estate where rents were not being paid.
I beg your pardon, I misunderstood the hon. Member.
I cannot for the life of me think of anything else to say. I did spend some time in the Orkney and Shetland Islands last year, and I know that what the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) said regarding the importance and urgency of this question is perfectly true. The figures he gave were that in three years, 1919 to 1921, 97 crofters were actually evicted. But there were far more than 97 crofters affected by these evictions. In some of the islands hundreds of them were perpetually under the threat of eviction.
These figures refer to the whole of Scotland.
I quite understand, but there are islands in the Orkneys as there are in the North-West, where the crofters live under the threat of eviction. I think I am right in saying the largest estate in Orkney is at present in the market. If that estate goes into the market and a number of crofters who at present hold under the old security of the 1911 Act are compelled to bid one against another for their homes—many of them have sunk their last penny in their homes and some of them have had State assistance—if they are compelled to pay high prices, then I submit that that is a form of robbery that this House should no longer tolerate. It was tolerated far too long in Ireland, and was only put a stop to in Ireland because the Irishman is less of a philosopher than the Highlander, and more given to lying behind a hedge or a dyke and taking a pot shot at a factor or landlord. It was put a stop to in Ireland because the Irish peasant showed force. In Scotland the people have been far too tame. If the figures for emigration that are evident in our returns are to be allowed to continue, we are going to witness the strangulation of a race. If you have a situation where there are 46,000 fewer farm servants and where there is a diminishing number of crofters, of shepherds and of large farmers in grazing, and where the only population that is on the increase are gamekeepers, it is obvious that to whatever political party you belong, you are facing the wiping out of a race.
No Scotsman can look on unmoved at the spectacle of what is going on in the Western Isles to-day. The Canadian Pacific liners are coming up to Lochbois-dale and clearing off hundreds of the finest peasantry in the world, not because these peasants are out of work but purely because of economic conditions, for which this and previous Houses of Parliament have been directly responsible. We have here an opportunity to deal with one small grievance; to plug up one hole. It is admitted by everyone that men who are paying their rents regularly, who believe they have security of tenure, and believe that so long as they farm well and pay their rents and are decent citizens could not be turned out of the homes many of them have built with their own hands. Here you have it that they are actually turned out. It is not only in the Orkneys, in Skye and in the Lews that this sort of thing is going on. If we have substantial unanimity in this House there is a feeling that this sort of thing should be stopped at once. I submit we ought to encourage the Secretary for Scotland. He may argue that the present Session is burdened with legislation, but if he can get an assurance from all quarters of the House that this Bill will go through the Houses of Parliament as a non-contentious Measure then we may at least do something to stop emigration and terrorism of our Highland population. I should like to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he can tell us in what position a man is who has become a statutory smallholder under the Act, and who got his house built for him, or very largely built for him, by State money? I remember on the Committee of Public Accounts last year being amazed to find the official attitude towards the smallholders. It was, "Oh, they were very costly. It cost so much to put down a small holding. By the time you bought the estate and paid the legal expenses it cost about £1,100 or £1,200 for a small holding." I think that is the figure. I remember sitting cross-questioning until I discovered that in the £1,100 or £1,200 they had actually included the whole price of the house. You do not do that with colliers or ironworkers or any other class of worker. You do not put the whole price of his house into one year's account. I should like to ask the Secretary of Scotland if he will tell us in what position a statutory small tenant will be in the event of the estate being sold over his head and he being compelled to purchase. Will he have any liability whatsoever that he contracted for his share of the house-building operation.
I should like to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he can tell us anything about the alleged recent destruction of crofters' houses in the neighbourhood of Loch Aline. They are actually tearing down the houses after they have the people evicted, and covering up the stones with turf so that there shall not be any memory, but there shall be no spectacle of the ruins of the houses where once there were people. I am putting these points to indicate the urgency of this. Everybody agrees the population is declining. Everybody agrees that in this instance the population is declining for want of a remedy. Everybody admits that it is right, proper and just that the crofter should be protected so long as he fulfils his statutory obligations. We have now a Secretary for Scotland who is said to be, by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, the first since 1917 who can even be got to profess any sympathy with these men.
I said that he was the only Secretary for Scotland whose attention has ever been directed to this subject.
As a matter of fact, previous Secretaries for Scotland have had their attention drawn to it, but we have a Minister now who is alleged to be sympathetic on this subject, and I hope he will express on behalf of all sections of the House, and all Scotland, his sympathy, and give us the assurance that in this Parliament there is going to be legislation passed to stop the compulsory eviction of these men, whose hardships have been so well described from all quarters of the House.
I intervene, not to disturb the remarkable unanimity which has been displayed by Scottish Members on this question, but rather to accentuate it. Those who have spoken so far have done so as representatives of rural constituencies. It may be thought that one who represents one of the divisions of the great City of Edinburgh has no personal interest in a question of this kind, but I can assure the Secretary for Scotland that those representing constituencies like my own are very directly interested in this subject. In all our great cities in Scotland, such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, and Aberdeen, we feel that the depopulation of the country districts largely the cause of congestion in the cities. We all desire that not only should this flow of people from the country to the towns be brought to an end, but that facilities should be offered for getting those who wish to go back to the country to settle down there again. The terrible housing conditions of which we have heard so much in Glasgow and Edinburgh have been largely contributed to by the clearances which have taken place in the country districts of Scotland in days gone by. We should secure great mitigation of the hardships of housing and unemployment if we could only settle down a healthy and happy peasantry on the soil. My hon. Friend the Member for Stirlingshire (Mr. Johnston) has stated that the peasantry of Scotland is the finest in the world, and I quite agree with him. For generations, and almost for centuries, we have had in Scotland an educated peasantry of independent mind, thought and action, and it is from the peasant homes of Scotland that the greatest contribution has been made to Empire building in all parts of the British Empire. On this point let me give one quotation from John Hill Burton's book, The Scot Abroad":
We have the greatest respect for the present occupant of the office of Secretary for Scotland. I have been a Member of this House for something like 13 years, and I can say without hesitation that there has never been an occupant of that great office that I would appeal to with greater confidence if it were a matter of personal sympathy and knowledge of the situation. Consequently when we speak in this way to the right hon. Gentleman we are indeed hammering at an open door. To-night the Members representing Scottish constituencies were only able to snatch a stray hour to discuss Scottish questions in this House by the fortunes of the ballot, and I think we are entitled to ask what door my right hon. Friend has got to hammer after we have secured his sympathy and his support! I do not care whether we are dealing with a Labour, a Liberal, or a Conservative Government.
Scottish people will never get redress of Scottish grievances unless they stand together as Scotsmen, and press their views irrespective of political parties. I have not the slightest doubt when my right hon. Friend goes with these subjects and proposals to the Cabinet he will be told there are a whole batch of questions dealing with all sorts of matters—India, Peru, Kenya and all the rest of it—and that all these places must receive attention before attention can be given to Scotland. I do hope the time will come when we will be able in our own Parliament to deal with these problems of our own land. In the meantime, I appeal to my right hon Friend to remember that, whatever the misdeeds of his predecessors may have been, this is an urgent question. It is not merely that there have been evictions in past years, but there are evictions threatened for Whitsuntide next. I should like to reinforce what has been said. If the right hon. Gentleman is unable to secure from the Government, because of its many engagements, all we ask, at any rate, if we have secured general agreement to-night amongst Scottish Members, it is not too much to ask that on purely domestic issue the Members for England and Wales should allow us for once in a while to have our own way.
The Bill which has been introduced is a one-Clause Measure which might be given an opportunity of being passed with the consent of the House, and then go to the Scottish Standing Committee. Though the time may be short, there is no reason why, under the circumstances, it might not become law in time to stop further evictions this year. That is the appeal I make to my right hon. Friend. I know it will not fall on deaf ears so far as he is concerned, but—and this is the last thing I desire to say—I know he has the Scottish characteristics. He is indeed a true Scot. Scottish people have particularly the characteristic of being cautious, a characteristic which is said to be the birthright of Scottish people, and which has got them out of many difficulties. But there is another Scottish characteristic besides caution. That is courage. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he has behind him not merely the support of the Scottish Members of his own party, but the united and unanimous support of the other Scottish Members in the House. What is called for in dealing with this is not caution, but courage. I trust he will see that the Scottish people desire this Bill to pass into law, and to pass speedily. If he thinks that, we assure him of all possible support.
I cannot follow in the strain and with all the eloquence of the last speaker, who is a native of that great city of Aberdeen of which I am proud to be one of the representatives. The hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out that this is a question of interest to all Scottish representatives, and I should like to say that I sympathise most heartily with the Resolution which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine, Central (Major Wood) has put on the Paper. It is quite certain, if we look at the history of the past 30 years, that an absolutely unexpected situation has arisen. The Crofters Act of 1886 was passed to give security of tenure, fair rents, and so on, and this was settled at first by what was then called the Crofters' Commission, and in later days by the Land Court. It is obvious that all that system depended on the large estate. The croft was a portion of what was a large estate. In the course of time, we have seen, that large estates have been broken up and, in many cases, are offered for sale. As pointed out by the Dunedin Commitee, the pressure of rates, Imperial taxation, and so on, has fallen on landed property in the Highlands, so that in many cases there was, in the actual words of the Committee, a very small margin indeed left. Many of these highland estates have been offered for sale. Having failed to sell, they have been offered in portions for small holdings. The situation now is that if a man's croft is put up for sale, he has either to purchase it at a competitive price, or else he has to go. He is, therefore, very much in the same situation as the crofter was before 1886, and it is obvious, I think, that some remedy must be found.
We have clearly got a gap in the structure of security of tenure. In what way is that to be met? The Bill which my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) has introduced is a short Bill, and proceeds by way of deleting the provision in Section 19 of the Small Landholders Act, of 1911, which provides that occupation by a landlord for the purpose of personally residing on his holding, being his only landed estate, shall be a reasonable ground for the landlord getting resumption of that estate. If that were passed as it stands, it would make the land in these estates, as it seems to me, unsaleable. If the landlord cannot sell his land, it is quite clear that he is put in a position of a very unfavourable kind. But there are remedies which, I think, short of this Bill, can be found. It may be suggested that the proposal should be adopted for the State, through the Board of Agriculture, to acquire these single holdings which are put in the market in this way, and either feu them, or else hold them as a landlord, and that the small landholder should hold from the Board of Agriculture. That was a provision followed in the Land Settlement Act of 1919.
10.0 P.M.
Another suggestion has been made to-night, namely, that the small landholder, whose croft is being put up for sale, should have the right of preemption. There has been certain criticism of this proposal, but there is a good deal to be said for giving this right of preemption, and having the price fixed by the Land Court at a fair price, and not a competitive price, and, surely, the Land Court is in a good position to fix such a price. It fixes fair rents for the holdings throughout Scotland, and, that being done, it, surely, would be right for the State to come forward and, by way of loan, put the smallholder in a position to make the purchase, making the loan repayable, interest and sinking fund, over a long period of years, so that, in the end, the smallholder would become the proprietor of the land. One can look at it, therefore, in one of two ways. It can be dealt with, as I said, either by the State, through the Board of Agriculture, acquiring these holdings, and either feuing them out or else holding them as landlord, and the smallholder continuing on the small holding tenure; or else proceeding, as I have endeavoured to point out, by giving the landholder the right of preemption if he wishes to buy, having the price fixed by the Land Court, and then the State coming forward, and, by way of loan, repayable, interest and sinking fund, over a long period of years, enabling him in the end to be the owner of his holding.
These are ways of dealing with this question which I bring to the notice of the Secretary for Scotland, because it is quite clear that this is a question that must be dealt with. It is always easier, as I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree, to make speeches from the Opposition side of the House than it is sitting there and carrying them into effect. I dare say the right hon. Gentleman has a certain feeling of regret that he is not at this Box making suggestions, rather than having the more difficult duty of carrying a policy into effect. But, after all, it is the penalty of holding high and distinguished office, that difficult problems from time to time beset the holder of the office, and he has got to do his best to settle them. Therefore, do not let it be thought that this is a problem that has escaped notice up to the present date, because, last summer, speaking in this House, Captain Elliot, the then Member for Lanark, dealt with this very point, and said that the Government were anxious to deal with it as soon as might be. He pointed out what I have endeavoured to point out, how unexpectedly this question had arisen, how the crofting system depended on the large estate, and no one thought that such a state of matters as was now before us would have come into being, but that, owing to the development of things, the high rates and taxes, and the fact that much Highland land was for sale, and could not be sold very often in large quantities as a big estate, it was being offered, in the only way open to a proprietor, in individual holdings.
After all, if a man cannot sell the whole of his estate, and is endeavouring to sell individual holdings, who are the purchasers to whom he can look? It is not very likely that investors would purchase crofts. The fair rent fixed by the Land Court is not a competitive rent, and would give a very small return upon a man's money. Then there is this drawback from the investor's point of view, that the small landholder has the very proper safeguard that when he goes he is entitled to compensation for all his improvements. That has got to be borne in mind, so that the investor is not likely to be the person who is tempted to buy. Therefore, the only purchaser who is left, in these circumstances, is somebody who wishes to buy, in order himself to occupy the holding. It is clear, as has been pointed out in the Debate, that this provision was first inserted in order to meet the case of some person coming back, let us say, from the Dominions, having made some money, and being anxious to purchase the croft or holding on which his ancestors have lived. That seems to have been the origin of it. That, of course, is not the way in which it is being generally applied at the present time.
Therefore I would say in conclusion to the Secretary for Scotland that here there is a real grievance, and that it must be dealt with. Though the cases may not be a large number in the aggregate, they have a strong psychological effect. As has been pointed out in eloquent words by the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson), the feeling the small landholder has had, that he has had security of tenure, has been to him of the highest value; he has felt he could go on working his holding and improving it, putting up buildings, and so on, knowing that if he wished to go he was entitled to compensation for his improvements. Though the cases may not be many in the aggregate, the fact that they exist has a psychological effect far beyond the actual cases of hardship which we know have occurred. I have ventured to put forward certain suggestions, as have other hon. and right hon. Members, for dealing with this position—whether, taking a long view, it is better for the State to become the owner of these holdings and to offer to feu or let them out to tenants, or whether, by a system of preemption given to the crofter, a purchase price fixed by the Land Court, and the money advanced by loan by the State, the end may be achieved. Though there are advantages in crofting tenure as against ownership, there is, as many countries have found out, a great strength to be derived from having a large number of people absolutely and completely owners of the soil, and that is a point that should not be forgotten. There are various alternatives. I have endeavoured to point out the objection to this particular Measure, which would, I think, render land in many parts of the country unsaleable, and I have endeavoured to make certain suggestions as to how the matter may be met; and I do ask the right hon. Gentleman, who I am sure realises that there is a problem here that he must deal with, to bend his energies to finding a solution as early as possible.
The Motion put by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood) is one that, as he explained, deals with a very narrow point, but, as the House will have realised from the speeches delivered, a very important one. It deals with a question which I am certain has touched the sympathy of Members in all parts of the House. It is a matter that imposes a real hardship on a very deserving body of men and it needs to be remedied as early as possible. It is a very important question from the point of view of the development of rural life in Scotland and from the point of view of finding employment and keeping as large a number of our own people as possible in the country. The question deserves the attention of every Member of the House as well as of the Government, particularly in view of the fact that the practice of turning out the smallholder, by the process outlined by the Member for Central Aberdeen, is growing of selling the holding to an individual, who then claims that he wants to enter into personal possession. In that way security of tenure is being taken from the small landholder. The practice is an obviously unfair one, because of the fact that in many cases the smallholder built his own house, made many improvements on his holding, and in many instances brought the land under cultivation. We read every day in the newspapers of the increased emigration that is taking place, particularly from the rural parts of Scotland, including the Highlands and Islands. Far be it from me to stand in the way of anyone who desires by emigration to improve his own position and do the best he can for himself, but the fact that we have such a large number of our people emigrating puts a responsibility on us to give them as great opportunities as it is possible for us to give them to make their living in their own country, and to remedy as many as possible of the abuses that are menacing their position in the way that this Motion deals with to-night.
The subject raised in this Motion is not an entirely new one. as has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirlingshire (Mr. T. Johnston). This has been going on since 1917, or even before that. It is not the first time the attention of this House has been called to the matter. Attention was called to it in the discussion on Scottish Estimates in July, 1918, by one of the late Members for Glasgow, but notwithstanding that the attention of the House has been called to it, successive Governments have absolutely neglected it, and now, it has been pointed out, I have been called upon to deal with the matter.
And you will do it.
I do not shirk the responsibility, only I should like to remind the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen that he should not expect it inside a matter of three weeks.
Why not?
He should not expect that inside three weeks after previous Governments have failed to deal with it during years. But as has been pointed out, the evil is a growing one, as the applications for resumption considered by the Scottish Land Court during the years 1919 and 1920 will show. In 1919 there were 16 applications, some on the ground of personal residence and others for other purposes—some of the other purposes that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) dealt with in the course of his speech. Five of these were granted and five were withdrawn. In 1920, the number of applications had risen to 38, and those made on the ground of personal occupation were 28. Of these, 22 were granted, six were withdrawn, and the remainder were refused on their merits. In 1921, the total number had risen to 43, there being 22 on the ground of personal occupation and 21 for other purposes. In 1922, the total number was 46, 30 being on the ground of personal occupation and 16 for other purposes. The total number of applications for resumption for personal use in these four years was 91, of which 50 have been granted, 14 withdrawn, and 27 either refused or dismissed by the Land Court after consideration.
As has already been pointed out, the original provision made in the Small Landholders Acts allowed of the resumption of a holding by the owner for his own personal purposes, and, as has been pointed out by more than one speaker, the idea was that the resumption of the family home, as it was called, must date from before 1886, for since that time it has been a condition of the landholder's tenure that the improvements, including the dwelling house and other buildings, must have been provided by the landholder. So far, therefore, as the original purpose of the power to resume for personal occupation is concerned, it is spent, and all the bona fide cases of resumption must have been met in those 38 years since 1886. Accordingly a repeal of that power would not take away what Parliament in 1886 and in 1911 intended to give, but would prevent the use of that power for a purpose which Parliament never intended. To take away a power which is being used in a manner that was never intended by Parliament is so eminently fair that I do not wonder that in almost all parts of the House the suggestion is being met with approval, and I believe it is a suggestion that will be met with approval by the overwhelming majority of the people of this country. Both the hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. F. C. Thomson) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty have pointed out that although this Motion deals with a very narrow point, it is a difficult point, and I can assure hon. Members in all parts of the House that this question is one to which I have been giving serious attention since it was brought to my notice by the deputation three weeks ago. There are difficult points to be considered before legislation could be introduced dealing effectively with the matters that have been raised in this Motion to-night, but, like other Members who have spoken, I am in entire sympathy with the Motion, and everything that can be done by me as an individual to remove the grievance will certainly be done. This matter is one which I have already been discussing from the point of view of legislation, and, as soon as I see my way clear of the difficulties that are involved, I can assure hon. Members in all parts of the House that, so far as I am personally concerned, I will lose no time in doing my best to have this matter effectively dealt with.
I am sure I am expressing the opinion which is held in all parts of the House that we welcome the declaration which has been made by the Secretary for Scotland. We are in entire harmony with the principle he has laid down. The number of cases in my experience is far greater than is recorded in the books of the Land Court, because people have got to know that they cannot get their security of tenure retained in the event of the sale of their holding to a. purchaser, who is entitled, as a matter of fact, to claim possession. I know among my own neighbours, for I come from a smallholding country, the small holdings held by tenants have been disappearing in a far greater degree than new holdings have been created. Some times it is by the smallholder being compelled to purchase his holding. Sometimes it is by the purchase by a large farmer of a holding that adjoins, and sometimes he is compelled to do it because he has been ordered to purchase or quit. He is asked to purchae not only his own holding, but it may be one or two small holdings adjoining, and he has no alternative. The evil is really far greater than is represented by the figures which have been quoted from the Land Court. I believe the real remedy is to be found in applying without hesitation the principle that the Secretary for Scotland has laid down of putting the law back into the position which was intended when the 1911 Act was passed. I had a good deal to do with the passing of that Act. I know what is intended. This power of resumption for occupation by the owner of a holding was merely intended to apply to a man who had been the owner of the particular holding and had occupied it. It was never intended to apply to the case of the owner of a large estate selling a holding in order that the purchaser, who had had nothing to do with it at all, might obtain possession.
I do not believe in the remedy of the Board of Agriculture buying the property and either feuing or letting to the smallholder, nor do I believe in solving the question fey giving a right of preemption. These are not, I believe, methods which would recommend themselves to the people who were intended to be benefited by them. The ordinary smallholder does not want to feu and become the landlord, and have the burdens of the landlord as well as of the tenant put upon him. That has been tried several times in the Highlands, and the people always have a settled objection to that course. Nor does the smallholder want to buy. As a rule he needs all his money for the proper equipment of his holding and for the working capital which he requires. I do not believe this will serve the purpose of keeping on the land or bringing back to the land the class of people we so regret to lose.
The true view in trying to remedy this matter is to get back to the situation which was intended to be created in 1911, with regard to security of tenure: that the landlord should not be in a position where he can sell his holding, except subject to the security of tenure of the tenant. That was a sound principle. I think we should not attempt to get away from the line which the Secretary for Scotland has laid down, but go straight back to the Act of 1911 and have the law put into the position where the landlord is not allowed to defeat the security of tenure of the smallholder by selling his property to individual purchasers, who will claim the benefit of this power of resumption which it was never intended they should have. We shall be doing no harm to the landlord beyond what was intended to be done in 1911.
Much the best way would be to proceed on the lines laid down in the Bill of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton) and stick to that. I would appeal to the Secretary for Scotland, and I would appeal to the House, that they should take the first step to-night by allowing that Bill to be read a Second time. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman will come to the conclusion, as I have come to the conclusion, with a most anxious desire to see a solution of this problem, that by means of that Bill he will be able to effect his purpose. It may have to be subject to some Amendment, but, at any rate, delay will be avoided, and we should have the genuine satisfaction of knowing that in this Debate, which has been so warm in its expression of desire to save these people from eviction, we have taken a real step forward towards a solution.
I should like to adds my note to the chorus of harmony with which the Resolution has been received in all quarters of the House. Security of outlook is necessary for everybody engaged in agriculture, and in the case of men, who in many cases have erected their own houses and made their own improvements, it has properly been recognised by the State for a long time now that they must have security of tenure. I can well believe that although there have not been many cases of evic- tion, the knowledge that there have been some cases, and the fact that a great deal of land is changing hands, or is likely to change hands, must have caused a very unsettled feeling in the minds of many smallholders in Scotland. Nobody on this side of the House would wish to defend so many years' purchase being demanded of smallholders as, apparently, has been the case in regard to some small holdings quoted by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland.
At the same time, I should like to emphasise what has been said by the hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. F. C. Thomson) in regard to the difficulties in which many landowners are placed at the present time, particularly in the Highlands. No landowner in Scotland, at least I am certain that no landlord whose family has been established in what the Secretary for Scotland has well called an old family home for many generations, as so many Scottish landlords have been, sells his land for any trivial reason. He does not sell it until he is obliged to, until, if I may use a slang phrase, he is down and out, and it is very sad that the circumstances at the present time are pressing so severely on many landowners in Scotland, particularly in the Highlands, as to oblige them to part with their land and their homes and to go away. There is a great burden of taxation resulting from the War, and there are also special burdens imposed by the rates, which have been particularly onerous in rural districts in Scotland owing to the alteration of education areas under the Education Act, 1918. From the educational point of view I am convinced that that Act is a great reform, but undoubtedly it has imposed excessively high rates in many rural parishes. There is also the fact that the cost of repairs and maintenance of estates is still very high, higher in Scotland in respect of house repairs than in many places further south.
Therefore it comes about that many people are unable to live in their places. Some are fortunate enough to be able to let them, and by that means are enabled to retain possession; there are others who have been able to sell their land, while there are others who wish to sell their land but are unable to do so. All of us who are interested in the history of our country, as what Scot is not, remember the pathetic little bands of exiles there used to be in the 18th century, Scotsmen and their families who had to live abroad because of the very gallant part which they had taken in a fight for a hopeless cause. To-day after many years there are Scots exiles living abroad because they cannot afford to live in their own homes, men who fought for their country in the late War, and who would willingly be here still to serve their country, but who cannot afford to live in this country because they cannot afford to live in their homes. So we have to remember that it is not for any trivial reason that land is being offered for sale in such large quantities to-day, and that justice, which I am sure we all regard as one of the fundamental conditions of British public life, must be done to these men.
Though we all recognise that the first thing which we have got to secure is continuity of security of tenure for the crofter and small landowner, justice does seem to me to demand that nothing should be done to prevent the landlord selling. It seems to me that in this matter an obligation does rest on the State. As the State has recognised for nearly two generations the peculiar position of the Scottish crofter and has given him security of tenure, it seems to me that the State, if it wishes to continue that security of tenure, as it must, should come in and either help the smallholder to purchase his holding or, if he does not wish to assume the responsibility of ownership, the State must become the owner, and feu or rent or let the holding to him. It does seem to me that if a landowner is to be put in a position in which his land is unsaleable, in that case he is caught in a trap from which he cannot escape, and I am sure that this House would not wish to inflict any injustice on this class of citizen.
It has been well said that this House only a few days ago refused to allow the burden of housing the unemployed in houses in towns to rest on one class of the community, and I am sure that, on reflection, the House equally will not allow the expense of continuing the security of tenure, which we all recognise as essential to smallholders, to rest solely on one class of the community. I ask the Secretary for Scotland to bear in mind the peculiar circumstances which have caused this sale, or attempted sale, of land on so large a scale. I fear that it is not a passing phase. It is an occurrence which is likely to continue, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer has some pleasant surprise in store for us in the reduction of direct taxation and unless his successors are likely to have the same pleasant surprises to offer us. I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will consider the question all round, and with a desire to do justice to a class that is experiencing very great and exceptional difficulties at the present time.
After listening to the speeches delivered to-night, one might think that this was a gathering of the clans. We have just heard the Highland pibroch, and I now want to give the Lowland call. Reference has been made to the depopulation of the Highlands. If I ventured upon a history of the Highland people of Scotland, how they were treated by landowners, who looked upon them as serfs, and if I cared to speak in the Lowland doric, I am sure I would rouse behind me sufficient energy to wake the House. But, like Rob Roy, "We'll let that flea stick tae th' wa'." The one thing that I did not like to-night was the pressure from the Liberal benches as to what could be done in three weeks. Hon. Members of that party have had successive Governments as Liberals, but they have never tackled this question. We of the Labour party have a right to say to our Scottish Secretary that he should do it in three days, if need be. The Liberals have no excuse for asking for anything. I want to speak about this depopulation, not in the misty distances referred to by the last speaker, but in the light of recent memories. Suppose you take the land of Morven, the most beautiful part of Scotland.
On a point of Order. Is it in order for the hon. Member to mention one particular part of Scotland as being the most beautiful?
Sweet are the uses of advertisement.
For your information, I may say that there is a very beautiful song known as "The Maiden of Morven." While that song had its birth in the beauties of one of Morven's daughters, that daughter was taken as representing the natural beauty of that land. There you have, on the other side of the Sound of Mull, those lofty hills of Mull looking with envy on Morven. On the left-hand side is Finuary, mentioned in another song, "Farewell to Finuary." It is the lament of the serf under the heel of the Scottish landlord. If you find time, Mr. Speaker, during the Recess to go there on a holiday, I can give you a programme by following which you may visit the scenes of the disasters I am about to relate. In this fair land you will find the famous mill of Finuary now in ruins.
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member dealing with the Motion before the House?
I confess I find it difficult to follow him at times.
Supply a translator!
Then there is a place on the right called Loch Aline, where there is a gentleman, named Craig Sellars—I must call him a gentleman in this House to be in order, but he is what we call in Glasgow a "Highland Hun" —and here you have only to go through the ruins of the crofters' homes, you have only to go through the land to see the wreck which has been made of the toil of the crofter, to see the wild bracken stealing in, showing the absence of civilisation and the presence of the destroyers of industry in the form of stupidity and landlordism. Then take the White Glen. There you find the same thing—the bracken and the deer taking the place of those lands which produced that which kept the miller of Finuary grinding all the year round. This has been done by a man claiming to be a human being—clearing off the land the people who have lived all their lives on this spot. Now we find excuses being made. Only the other day a great Clyde-built steamship was to be seen going into the lochs to take away the people who are now said to be unable to live there. How did they live there for hundreds of years?
Apparently the hon. Member is referring to me when he talks about excuses being made for events which he alleges have happened. I never referred to anything of the kind.
I am not referring to the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross at all. I was referring to my visit of two years ago to Loch Aline, and that visit was made in order to get first-hand information with regard to the depopulation of those districts. For four miles from Finuary to the water-side you can still see all the evidences of the crofters' methods of cultivation. We find to-day vested in one man the power to say that these people are to be compelled to leave the land in which they were born and in which they have been living by their own labour. They are being crushed out into other countries. In that land I found beautiful rivers, and when I stood on the bridges across those rivers I saw the salmon in the water fighting for places, so crowded were they. In these rivers are sufficient fish to feed all the people who could be crammed on these lands, yet they are denied the right to fish. The fish are being preserved for the season when the gentry come up, and meantime the few people who are allowed by the gracious-ness of Craig Sellars to live on God's land, have to feed on tinned salmon.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Scottish farmer in the old days made a stipulation that he must not eat salmon on more than three days a week?
That is ancient history, and that only took place on the River Tay. In this same place the landowner has not only the say as to what use the houses shall be put to, but he has the right, and exercises that right, to say when a girl shall, leave the place, and when a lad shall leave the place, still retaining the idea that these people are serfs. Finally, I appeal to the Secretary for Scotland—I make no threats to him if he does not do it; he will understand what I mean—that we cannot as a Labour Government do anything else but take immediate and drastic steps in order to destroy that which to-day stands between Scotland and its real nationality—namely, a people capable of working and living on its own soil and independent of all other nations.
I would like to draw the attention of the House back to the issue. The Noble Lady the Member for Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) very earnestly and effectively discussed security of tenure, but the issue is a lesser one than that. It is simply whether we will confer a, right upon these smallholders which Parliament intended that they should have 13 years ago. We are not discussing the merits of security of tenure, nor the poetry and passion of the Highlands. The issue is so simple and so narrow—
Do not take us to Fiji to-night.
My hon. Friend will get "fair wannert" long before he gets to Fiji to-night. I want to make an appeal to the Secretary for Scotland. The issue is so narrow and so small, and we will be acting in accordance with the decision of the House when we correct a mistake that was made in an Act of Parliament. Parliament thought, 13 years ago, that it was conferring security of tenure on these smallholders in Scotland. The Courts have since decided that there is a way by which the intention of Parliament can be circumvented, and Parliament is being asked to do nothing more than to vindicate itself, and to confirm the right upon these people that it intended they should have, and that those people thought they had enjoyed, but which they discovered they did not enjoy. That is all that the Resolution states, but there is a Bill coming on for Second Reading to-night which vindicates Parliament, confirms that right to those smallholders, and remedies defects which we all condemn and which we all wish to remedy. All quarters of the House to-night, including the Noble Lady speaking for her side, have agreed that these smallholders should have that right confirmed.
Here is a Bill of one Clause, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton). It has a wide title, and therefore the Government can modify it if it wishes to do so, and can enlarge it if it wishes to do so, but it contains only one operative Clause, and that is a Clause confirming upon the smallholders the right that Parliament intended they should have. I think if that is troubling us, if we are unanimous, if this is an agreed Measure, there is no reason whatever why the Government should not allow that to go through, asking nothing more and giving nothing more and not going into all the questions of security of tenure and other reforms. The matter is urgent. There are so many suffering and so many about to suffer that if he fails to take this opportunity the whole responsibility will be upon his head. I appeal to him to allow this to go upstairs to the Scottish Grand Committee, and then the Government will have a free hand.
With the leave of the House, I would like to reply to one or two of the questions put to me, particularly questions by my Friends the Members for Dumfries (Dr. Chapple), the County of Forfar (Mr. Falconer), and West Stirling (Mr. T. Johnston). An appeal has been made to me to accept a Bill standing in the name of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton), allow that to be given a Second Reading, and for the Government to take up that Bill and give it the time of the House. As I told the House during the course of my remarks, I have examined the position from the point of the Bill that has been introduced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland and I cannot accept it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Modify it."] I know the importance of the question just as well as the hon. Member for Dumfries and others.
It is not any more urgent than the Evictions Bill.
I know the importance of this question and I have already assured the House that I will deal with it as early as possible, but I cannot deal with it on the basis of the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. If I am going to deal with it and accept responsibility for it, which I will accept, then I will deal with it in the form of a Bill introduced by myself as advised by my legal advisers. Two or three other questions were asked by the Member for West Stirling (Mr. Johnston). I do not know anything about the question he put to me with regard to the destruction of houses of crofters in the Loch Aline district. He asked me if I knew the average cost per holding. I replied that the average cost per pasture holding was about £500, and arable about £1,000, but, as he knows, you have the cost of the house entering into that average cost. His third question was as to what is the position of the smallholder who had his house built or partly built by State money when he is turned out. Is he still liable for any portion of the cost? The position of the smallholder who has borrowed from the Board of Agriculture and who is removed from his holding is that he has a right to claim compensation for improvements from the landlord, but this right is subject to the prior right of any repayment of any outstanding part of the loan granted to him.
My point is one of great importance. Is it the case that the Government can actually prosecute for a personal debt to the extent of £250 a poor devil who has been turned out of his home and ruined and the Government can afterwards hunt him for that £250?
:I have stated the legal position very clearly as to what the Government could do with a man who is ruined. My hon. Friend knows that in a case of that kind we should treat him with very sympathetic consideration.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to oppose the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland?
That is not the point which has been raised. An appeal was made to me to allow that Bill to pass through or to accept it.
The appeal made was that the Government should not block this Bill, but allow it to go to the Scottish Standing Committee, where the right hon. Gentleman could have control over it and modify it if necessary.
I have already made my position perfectly clear. I have stated that I cannot accept the Bill of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, but I will deal with this matter at the earliest possible moment by a Bill for which I will accept the responsibility.
I want to express my approval of the attitude which the Secretary for Scotland has taken up, in refusing to be rushed on this very urgent matter which has been raised by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. This is a question on which the Liberal Government made a mistake 13 years ago, and to-night we are being told that this is a more urgent business than the eviction Measure which the Liberal party turned down on Monday. I am quite prepared to believe that if we give the right hon. Gentleman a month he will honour the pledge he has given, because he is a Fifer, and when he gives his word the job is as good as done—
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
I think the House is prepared to come to a decision.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That this House views with alarm the large number of evictions of smallholders in Scotland owing to the resumption of their holdings by purchasers, and calls upon the Government to take immediate steps to assure to smallholders that security of tenure which it was the object of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts to confer."
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Evictions (Woolwich)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Mr. Kennedy. ]
I desire to take the earliest opportunity to call attention to another aspect of the evictions question which has lately occupied the time of the House, and in this connection to refer to certain action which His Majesty's Government has taken. My constituency of Woolwich is on the Well Hall Estate, which is under the direct supervision of the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works. Many people were drawn to Woolwich during the War. Their necessities at the present time are very great indeed, because, although there is considerable unemployment throughout the country, undoubtedly in this particular area, owing to discharges at the Arsenal, that question is unhappily very much accentuated in the district and on this particular estate.
On 8th February I had the privilege of introducing a deputation to the First Commissioner of Works, which dealt with certain complaints of the tenants on the estate. Among other matters brought to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman was the question of the evictions which were contemplated in connection with certain tenants on the ground of non-payment of rent. On the 20th February, at the time when the Prime Minister was informing the House that the applications for evictions were increasing to a most alarming extent, and that the tenants of the country were to be protected, the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works issued a number of summonses for evictions of the tenants on that estate.
I have in my hand a summons in which the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of. Works is the plaintiff, and in this summons one of the tenants—and this is only a specimen of a number—is summoned to appear at the County Court at Woolwich, on Wednesday, 2nd April, to show cause why he should not appear at the Court, and deliver up possession of his premises. In the particulars of claim which the right hon. Gentleman furnished to that particular defendant, he asked for possession of the premises, and that the defendant should be evicted, on the ground that he had not paid his rent, which, on that occasion, amounted to £18 2s. 1d., together with costs, which amounted to £4 8s., and those particulars are signed by the Treasury Solicitor to the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of works. That is only one of a series of summonses which were issued for the eviction of these people on the 28th February, and on the 2nd April the proceedings came before the County Court Judge. I may remind the right hon. Gentleman, who is a Member of the Cabinet, that, curiously enough, on the 2nd April there was the Debate on the Second Reading of the Government's Rent Bill, and on that occasion the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health said the Measure was designed, if possible, to prevent a possible, and probable, rush of evictions, and constant terror of ejectment, and to preserve, develop and protect the institution of family life.
Were those exservice men who were to be evicted?
I was going to explain. I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. The defendant in the particular case in the summons to which I have referred had been employed for two years, and when he was working at full time he earned £3 a week. His family consisted of five people, and he owed, as I have stated, approximately, £20 in rent. During the last fortnight or three weeks he has secured employment, and is earning £2 19s. 6d. a week. Of the other defendants, one, whose name I will not mention, but which I have given the right hon. Gentleman, has been out of employment for, approximately, 18 months. When on full work he earned £2 19s. 6d. He has stated that, during the whole of that period, there has been a considerable amount of illness in his family, and he has found it utterly impossible to pay the rent that the right hon. Gentleman has demanded from him. Another of the defendants states that he has done temporary work as a gardener for some little time, and had been unemployed for five months. There are five in his family, two boys of which have been unemployed for a considerable period, and his average earnings at the present time equal £2 a week. Another of the defendants, and I think there are eight in all, who had to appear in Court at the instance of the right hon. Gentleman had been unemployed for 18 months.
May I ask, if the hon. Gentleman will allow me, why he did not make this speech in support of the Bill yesterday?
The hon. Gentleman utterly ignores the intentions of my argument, because the right hon. Gentleman could have put his principles into practice by withdrawing his summonses immediately. The earnings of this defendant were £3 a week. He states that his wife has been very ill for a considerable period, and generally his difficulties have been very great. The only other defendant I will mention has been unemployed for nine months. When on full time his wages amounted to £2 15s. It is true that in this case, and I daresay my right hon. Friend will make a point of it, that the arrears of his rent amounted to £70, but he states that he has five children, all under 14, that his earnings at present only amount to £2 15s. a week, and that he has only started work a very short time ago. I want to give the right hon. Gentleman a full opportunity of explaining exactly what the position of His Majesty's Government is in this connection, because I remember very well, when this Bill was last dealt with in the House of Commons, the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary said that he did not believe in doing a lot of lip-service to the evicted people. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is, if the Government desires to protect people of this sort, that he himself does not set an example, because it is perfectly clear, and I think most Members of the House who at any rate will give fair consideration to the action the right hon. Gentleman has taken, that at any time throughout those proceedings he could have delayed or adjourned or abandoned them altogether. At the very time when the Prime Minister and the Government, of which he is a member, were bringing forth these proposals, and, I may say, were questioning the bona fides of people who opposed their particular proposals, actually a member of the Cabinet, in close and constant touch with the Prime Minister, was himself issuing summonses for evictions, and endeavouring to turn people into the street. I want to ask, as this is the only occasion before the Easter Adjournment on which I can do so, for a full explanation from the First Commissioner of Works, and also to ask him to give an undertaking that, subject to the proceedings upstairs being properly debated and considered, he will, at any rate, give an earnest of the sincerity of the Government in dealing with this matter, by undertaking that he will not himself endeavour to turn people into the street, on the ground of non-payment of rent, who are in very great difficulties themselves.
The hon. Gentleman has given his version of these cases of notices for possession—
Eviction.
and I think it will be well if I offer, in the short time at my disposal, a short explanation of the position with regard to this estate which so keenly interests the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood). The Woolwich estate comprises pretty nearly 4,000 houses—the precise figure is 3,954. Of the tenants of those houses, 1,900 are in arrears with their rent. The arrears amount to £23,619. That is the position in which I found the estate. [ Interruption. ] Not a single one of those tenants who have been taken to Court is unemployed.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to say that in all those cases he has seized the opportunity, directly the defendant has got into work, to issue proceedings against him?
There is not a single one of these tenants who is unemployed There has not been a single eviction on my order.
Because the County Court Judge refused to grant it.
There has not been a single eviction on my order. The House will readily understand that, among 4,000 tenants or thereabouts, there is a certain proportion who themselves are not honestly endeavouring to meet their responsibilities. Neither I nor any of the party to which I belong—
Wheatley never said that.
have the slightest desire to protect tenants who are not worthy of protection. Nothing that we have said or done, no policy of ours, no action of ours, has ever given the slightest colour to any suggestion that we would protect any such tenants. Let me give my version of these cases. I think the House ought to have it.
Do you say that all these people are dishonest?
No, I never did. The House must form its own opinion as to the responsibility of the tenant. I am giving a statement of the case in each instance. No. 1: Wife and three children, ages 11, 8 and 4; it is true, out of work from January, 1922, to March of this year, but is now in work. He owes £17 9s., and his rent is 8s., including rates. What the Court's decision means is that he has to pay 1s. a week extra in respect of arrears.
You asked for eviction.
The hon. Member does not know the difference between an order for possession and a warrant for eviction. No. 2: Mechanical electrical engineer, wife and five children aged 12, 8, 10, 6 and 1, owes £69 9s. 9d. rent, including rates, 16s. 11d. The Court's decision, possession in one month, suspended as long as 2s. per week extra is paid.
Why did you ask the Court for the man to be turned into the street?
The hon. Member for West Woolwich must be in his seat Occasionally.
Number 3: wife and seven sons, jobbing gardeners in casual work, 8s. per day; assuming five days per week £2 for himself. Son on unemployment pay 15s., aged 21. Another son, 18, receiving £1 wages; another of 14 receiving 12s. Family income £4 17s. Owes £6 10s. in rent. Court's decision is possession in one month, suspended as long as 1s. per week extra is paid. No. 4: Labourer continuously employed for past three years, wages £2 6s. Owes £31 9s. 8d. Rent 9s. 10d., including rates. Court's decision, possession in one month, suspended so long as 2s. per week extra is paid.
Is it a fact that in every one of these cases the Court was asked for the eviction of these people?
No.
Here is the summons.
Not one of these cases will be evicted until I say so.
The summons was for the eviction of these people, and the Court did not allow it.
It is a warrant that is required for eviction. [HON. MEMBERS: "You asked for it!"] We have an order for possession. [ Interruption. ]
The House must really listen to the right hon. Gentleman.
No. 5, in continuous employment since April, 1920; wife and four children; wages, £3 6s. 6d.; arrears of rent, £30 9s. 5d. Court's decision, possession in one month, suspended so long as 1s. a week extra is paid. No. 6, labourer, wife and two children, employed by a firm in Bloomsbury, owes £20 5s. 1d., rent 8s., including rates, possession in one month, the order suspended so long as 1s. per week extra is paid. No. 7, naval pensioner; wife and three children, seven, five and two years; fitter in work for the past 12 months, earning, in addition to pension, £2 18s. 6d.; owes £29 1s. 2d.; rent, 7s. 9d., including rates; Court's decision, possession in one month, but suspended so long as he pays 2s. per week extra. No eviction will take place until the whole of the circumstances have been considered.
I am sure that the House will agree with me—at any rate, I claim that it ought to agree with me—that I should give sympathetic attention to every one of these cases, before any further action be taken. I do not give way to the hon. Member for West Woolwich in my sympathy for these people. It is perfectly evident that when a problem like this has to be faced, one must, in certain circumstances, apply pressure in order to get some payment of arrears. That is all that has been done. There is no question of eviction. I repeat that not a single eviction has taken place under my order, and there is not a, single man unemployed in the list which I have given.
The right hon. Gentleman said just now that the House will agree with him, and I think that it will agree with him, that the Courts do, in fact, in these circumstances, show a very reasonable measure of consideration of the actual facts of the cases, and I cannot help contrasting the detailed facts of the position of a particular landlord and the way in which the Courts have dealt with this case, with the vague generalities, and the "sob stuff," which we have heard in this House. [ Interruption. ] There is nothing in what we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman which would in the least justify the attempt originally made in the Measure which has now, to all intents, passed out of existence—
He is only a little swine—a guttersnipe. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Order" and "Withdraw!"]
The hon. Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow must not use those expressions.
The right hon. Gentleman has no right to talk about "sob stuff." We have had too much of that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] After all, we have got our feelings. [ Interruption. ]
It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.