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Commons Chamber

Volume 172: debated on Monday 14 April 1924

House of Commons

Monday, April 14, 1924

Private Business

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Central London and Metropolitan District Railway Companies Bill,

Sums to be set off against gross Subsidy in respect to contributions from Colonies. &c., sea postage for mails dispatched by Colonies and Foreign countries, &c.

Net charge on Exchequer.

Remarks.

Name of service.

Date of commencement of contract.

Contract terminable.

Particulars of service.

Total subsidy.

By contributions.

By sea postage.

—[ Mr. W. Thorne. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Mill Strike, Cawnpore

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any details of the mill strike at Cawnpore which is reported to have resulted in three persons being killed and 34 injured?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the firing on strikers at Cawnpore; whether the mounted police were beating the strikers with sticks or canes before there was any attempt at stone throwing by the men; and whether attempts were made by the Government to find out the men's grievances before armed police help was given to the mill owners?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any further information he can give to the House as to the causes of the labour

London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

St. Just (Falmouth) Ocean Wharves and Railways (Abandonment) Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Steamship Subsidies

1. Return ordered of the sums payable out of the Exchequer in the United Kingdom in the financial year ending 1924 in respect of steamship subsidies for foreign and colonial services:

troubles which have taken place at Cawnpore; whether any more deaths have occurred; will he state how many police or other official persons were injured before the firing on the crowd took place; are steps now being taken by the Indian Government to investigate the causes which have brought about these industrial conflicts; and what steps are being taken to prevent a repetition of the same?

No further official information has been received up to the present as to the strikes, and the resulting disturbance, beyond what was given in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley on 9th April. I am hoping to receive fuller information which I will communicate to the House. With regard to the last two parts of my hon. Friend's question as to the steps taken by the Indian Government, I may explain that the subject of labour disputes is one of those for which, under the Rules made under the Government of India Act, responsibility rests with provincial governments. The subject receives the constant and anxious atten- tion of these governments, and periodical reports are transmitted by mail to the Secretary of State. He will, however, communicate the suggestion contained in the last part of the question to the Government of India, with a view to their considering whether there is any occasion for consulting provincial governments as to the utility of further, inquiry into the causes of these disputes, and into the practicability and desirability of devising measures that might tend towards diminishing the risk of their occurrence.

Is the hon. Gentleman yet in receipt of the report of the Director of Labour in Bombay? If so, is it a fact that the reserves held by the mill owners of Bombay are 300 per cent. above those of any previous year?

Public Services (Royal Commission)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to tie statement made by the Home Member on behalf of the Government of India in the Legislative Assembly on 1st March last, that they had not been consulted about the appointments of the reporting staff to the Royal Commission on the Public Services; that the Government of India was satisfied that Indian reporters were competent and available for this work, and that Indian reporters had been utilised in connection with other commissions of inquiry, e.g., the Industrial Commission, the Fiscal Commission, the Reforms Commission, and the Hunter Commission, and that a public protest meeting had been held protesting against the bringing out of English reporters; whether it is the policy of the India Office to make such appointments without consulting the Government of India when the pay is charged to the Indian taxpayer; and whether he will give an assurance that in future the Government of India will be consulted before any such appointments are made?

The reporting arrangements for Royal Commissions are a matter on which the Chairman is always consulted, and I understand that in this case the Chairman particularly asked that reporters should be taken out from this country. I have seen the statement to which my hon. Friend refers. My Noble Friend has not yet received the communication which the Government of India promised should be made to him, but will of course consider most carefully any representations that they may wish to make.

When does the hon. Gentleman expect the Report of the Royal Commission?

I understand that the Report of the Commission was due to arrive yesterday.

Public Accounts

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the home accounts of the Secretary of State and the accounts of the High Commissioner are subjected to review by the Public Accounts Committee in India, or by what authority?

The accounts of the High Commissioner are laid before the Public Accounts Committee in India. They are also included in the papers relating to Home Expenditure annually submitted to Parliament. Under Section 26 of the Government of India Act, the accounts of the Secretary of State in Council are laid before Parliament each year, and they are also laid before the Public Accounts Committee in India.

Budget

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that in India more than 50 per cent, of the total Indian Budget is non votable by the members of the Indian Legislative Assembly, it is proposed to take steps to make all the Budget votable by the Assembly?

The course suggested by the hon. Member would involve amendment of the Government of India Act. No proposal for this purpose has been made.

Government of India Act (Section 67 B)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any recent Amendment has been made or published in India of the statutory rules under Section 67 B of the Government of India Act; whether the Indian legislative assembly had been consulted; and when the Secretary of State's sanction was applied for and obtained?

My hon. Friend is presumably referring to Amendments of the Indian Legislative Rules to provide a suitable procedure for dealing with Bills recommended or certified under Section 67 B of the Act. Amendments with this object have been made by the Government of India with the sanction of the Secretary of State in Council and were published in India on 13th March. In pursuance of the statute they are now being laid before both Houses of Parliament. So far as I am aware, the Assembly was not consulted.

Reforms (Inquiry)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government will consider the desirability of associating with the inquiry proposed by the Government of India into the working of the reforms some non-official Members or Ministers who have had actual experience of such working?

This question had been mentioned in correspondence with the Government of India, but that Government has not yet made any final recommendation with regard to it.

Press Propaganda

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the danger of the propaganda disseminated in the Indian Press by the extremist agitator, as quoted in the Behar and Orissa Legislative Council in which the Government of India is depicted as a cruel oppressor and a cunning exploiter, that its hands were stained with blood, that it dishonoured women and massacred children, and that the Government and all its works must be forthwith ended; and whether he will consult the Government of India with a view to the reintroduction of the Press Law which was repealed two or three years ago?

I have not seen any report of the nature mentioned in the question; but I would again remind the hon. and gallant Member that the Courts, in India exist and that use is made of them when offences or torts are committed. It is not contemplated to suggest to the Government of India to revive the Press Act.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the Courts in India are not made use of?

Disturbances (Jaito)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the letter addressed by 41 members of the Indian Legislative Assembly, including well-known leaders of Indian public opinion, asking for a committee of officials and non-officials to make a thorough investigation into the firing at Jaito, and that a mere magisterial inquiry will not satisfy the needs of the situation; and whether, in view of the fact that the official and non-official accounts widely differ as to the whole affair, he will order a public inquiry to be made on the lines suggested?

I have not at present seen the letter referred to, though I understand such a letter was sent. As I stated in reply to a question on the 10th March, the Secretary of State has no doubt that the Government of India will take all necessary steps to ascertain the full facts, if they have reason to think that they have not already been ascertained, and he does not think it necessary to make any suggestion to them in this connection. The appointment of a committee to make a general inquiry into the grievances of the Sikh community has been under contemplation, and I now observe in the Press that it has just been announced in India.

Is it not the case that this inquiry was conducted by a Sikh magistrate?

War Office (Outstanding Claims)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will bring to the attention of the Secretary of State the advisability of associating with himself any competent military financial adviser from India like Sir B. N. Mitter, who holds that office in the Government of India, in conducting negotiations with the War Office regarding the amounts outstanding between it and India?

My Noble Friend will not fail to make use of the best expert advice at his command in negotiating the settlement of these questions.

Army (British Officers' and Men's Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has yet inquired into the accuracy of the calculations supplied to him showing that a married British service captain ordered to serve in India loses pay at the rate of £22 per annum, a married lieutenant of over seven years' service £63 per annum, and under seven years' service £68 per annum, married quartermasters, whose pay depends on length of service as such, lose by service in India in every grade, and married warrant officers, non commissioned officers, and men lose, respectively, about £49 14s., £20 12s. 6d., and £16 2s. 6d. per annum; and, if so, whether, in order to put a top to this reduction of pay now inflicted upon these officers and men ordered to serve in India, he will grant the same marriage allowances in India as are granted at home?

My reply to the hon. and gallant Member's question of 7th April was based on a careful examination of the figures which he has been good enough to supply. A certain disparity in the case of the officers is admitted, and I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that we shall endeavour to remedy it in connection with the revision which is due next July. But I cannot guarantee that any particular solution will be adopted.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the reply which he gave me the other day?

Mill Industry, Bombay

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has now had an opportunity of considering the Memorandum drawn up by Mr. Findlay Shirras, the director of labour under the Government of Bombay, which Memorandum shows that the reserve funds of the mill-owners in Bombay had been increased by 345 per cent.; and whether he will recommend the Government of India to take any steps in the matter?

I have now seen a Press report of the Memorandum, which appears to have been submitted to the Bonus Dispute Inquiry Committee appointed by the Government of Bombay. It gives the figure named as the increase in the reserve funds of 38 of the mills, the total number of which I understand is 82. The Committee reported that the results of the working of the mill industry as a whole for the year 1923 are such as to justify the contention of the mill-owners that the profits do not admit of the payment of a bonus. The question of reserve funds does not appear to be one in which Government could interfere.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that last year was a most disastrous year in the industry in Bombay?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, as a result of his promised inquiries, he can state why the cases against the owner of the Ahmedabad Cotton Mill, in Bombay Presidency, were withdrawn by the collector after a conviction had been obtained in the first case and a fine of £100 imposed for employing women and children on night duty in contravention of the Indian Factories Act, 1922?

It will take sometime to obtain the report which is being called for through the Government of India. I will communicate with my hon. Friend when it is received.

Assam Labour and Emigration Act

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is aware that, under the Assam Labour and Emigration Act, it is possible for a planter to have a labourer arrested for leaving his service, and that a labourer is made criminally liable for any breach of service; and whether there have been protests from Madras about the recruiting of labour from that Presidency for work on Assam plantations?

The provisions to which my hon. Friend refers in the Assam Labour and Emigration Act have been withdrawn some years ago. As regards the latter part of the question, no protests have been received by my Noble Friend or reported by the Government of India.

General Election (Statistics)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will give a Return for the last General Election in India showing the number of electors in the case of each Provincial Council, the Legislative Assembly, and the Senate, respectively, the number who voted, the number of candidates, and the number returned, as given in the case of the elections for 1920?

I hope to receive shortly from India material for such a Return, which will be presented as soon as possible thereafter.

Murders (Kohat)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any further information with regard to the murderers who have escaped from Afghanistan to Afridi country; and whether pressure is being put on the Afridis to give them up?

Definite information as to the two missing members, of the Kohat gang is still lacking. The Chief Commissioner of the North-West Frontier Province has taken the matter up with a joint jirga of the Afridi and Orakzai tribes, and has secured satisfactory undertakings from most of the sections concerned. Further pressure will be applied if necessary.

Afghanistan (Arms)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any further consignments of rifles and machine guns are being sent by French firms to Afghanistan; whether any consignments are still being held up in Bombay; and can he state the numbers of rifles and machine guns that are being supplied by French firms?

In reply to the first part of the question, His Majesty's Government have no information. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the negative.

Have these consignments which were held up gone through?

Akali Sikh Jathas

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is taking any steps to prevent the setting out of those Jathas of Akali Sikhs; and whether he is aware that such Jathas are stirring up unrest in districts which were previously undisturbed?

My Noble Friend has already made inquiries and has ascertained that the question has been fully considered by the Governments in India, who must necessarily be in the best position to judge of the effect of these Jathas and of the policy to be adopted in dealing with them.

Can the hon. Member say whether they are adopting the policy of stopping these Jathas?

Were these the same men whose aid was requisitioned in France and who proved capable, willing, and loyal at the time when we wanted them?

Newspapers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that complaints are made in India about the delay in delivery and, at times, confiscation of the following newspapers and periodicals: the "Crusader," the "Unity," the "Outlook," the "Freeman,'" the "Daily Herald," the "Islamic Review," the "Manchester Guardian Weekly," the "Living Age," the "Nation," the "New Majority," the "New Russia," and the "Saturday Herald"; why there is this censorship and delay in the delivery of newspapers and periodicals in the Madras Presidency; and will he take steps to put an end to the same?

On the 7th April I offered to have inquiry made into any specific cases. I can only repeat that offer, and the assurance that there is no such censorship.

Is it not specific enough to give the hon. Member the names of the journals which are not allowed to go in? What more information does he require?

Are we to understand from the reply that there will be no interference with the powers which the last Government had for dealing with these matters if they desired to do so?

Irrigation

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what are the views and recommendations of the Government of India on the Resolution passed by the Council of State at Delhi on 5th March for a fresh survey of irrigation possibilities both from the rivers and wells of India, as no such survey has been made since 1901?

The views and recommendations of the Government of India have not yet been received. An inquiry on the subject has been sent to them.

Pilotage Dues (Norway)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that an attempt is being made to compel all trawlers calling at Tromsoe, Norway, to pay pilotage dues; that this will place a considerable burden upon the Hull fishing industry, as all trawlers engaged in the White Sea fishing pass through the Tromsoe district both going and returning; and whether he will consider taking up the matter with the Royal Norwegian Government on behalf of His Majesty?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; I am in communication with His Majesty's Minister at Christiania, who will discuss the matter with the Norwegian Government if further examination of the regulations shows that British Treaty rights are being in any way infringed.

Money Export (French and English)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any and, if so, what restrictions are placed by the French Government on the export of French and English money, respectively; is he aware that English travellers are submitted to questions and search at the ports of embarkation in France in order to discover whether they have English money; is such action taken by agreement with His Majesty's Government; and, if not, will he make representations to the French Government?

The French regulations prohibit, except within defined limits, the export of any coin except coins which have never been legal tender in France. Travellers are forbidden to carry out of France more than 5,000 francs in Bank of France notes or the equivalent in notes issued by the banks of other countries. The French authorities are within their rights in making and enforcing these regulations. The fact that His Majesty's Government have not been invited to give their agreement does not constitute a ground for representations to the French Government.

Tonnage Tax

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Spanish Government has imposed on shipping using Spanish ports a tonnage tax from the proceeds of which Spanish shipping alone benefits, which discrimination is not in accordance with the League of Nations Maritime Ports Convention signed by Great Britain and Spain last December; and are representations being made to the Spanish Government on the matter as contemplated in Article 8 of the Statute appended to the Convention in question?

The Convention referred to is not yet actually in force, and the Spanish decree is so framed that it does not appear openly to involve a specific infraction of Spanish treaty obligations towards this country. It does, however, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, run counter to the spirit of those obligations, and representations are being made to the Spanish Government on this basis.

Peace Treaties

British Claims (Germany)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken by the British Government to induce the German Government to fulfil its obligations under Articles 296 and 297 of the Treaty of Versailles, and to resume remittances to the British clearing house to meet in full the amounts due to balance the differences in the clearing house totals in favour of British claimants?

I have been asked to reply. The German Government has recently agreed to pay further instalments, up to a limited amount, on account of its monthly debit balances under Article 296, and has, in fact, paid two such instalments to the British clearing office and the other Allied clearing offices with credit balances. The whole question of clearing office payments is under consideration in connection with the general settlement of the reparation question.

I would rather not go into details, but several thousand pounds have been received.

Will the British clearing house benefit to any material degree by these resumed payments?

I have already said that the whole question is to be considered in connection with the general question of reparations.

What is the amount of the last two payments to which the hon. Member referred?

Ruhr Occupation

asked the Prime Minister if he can make a statement regarding the Government's attitude towards the French and Belgian occupation of the Ruhr?

While discussions are in progress consequent upon the publication of the Reports of the Reparation Sub-committees of Experts, I would rather defer any statement on such a subject.

Does this Government consider the occupation of the Ruhr by France and Belgium to be illegal, in face of the Treaty of Versailles?

asked the Prime Minister if this country will participate in the reparations payments from the Ruhr received by the French and Belgian Governments; and can he state what amount we can claim from the moneys collected to date through the Ruhr occupation?

I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. A. A. Somerville) on the 19th March, in which I set out the position very fully.

Do the Government maintain the same attitude towards the occupation of the Ruhr as the last Government did; and if we obtain any money at all, do they consider we shall be in the position of receiving money obtained by illegal methods?

Anglo-Russian Conference

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French Government has been invited to participate in the negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether an invitation has been, or will be, given to the French Government to participate in, or to be represented at, the conference about to be held with delegates from the Soviet Government of Russia; and whether he has received any intimation from the French Government that such an invitation would bra accepted?

I will answer these questions together. The forthcoming conference is one for the settlement of matters outstanding between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government, and the question of the participation of other Governments does not, therefore, arise.

Rumania and Japan

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to give the House regarding a new defensive Treaty of mutual guarantee between Rumania and Japan against the invasion of Bessarabia and Japanese possessions in Saghalien by Russia; whether the terms of this Treaty are to be made public; and whether he has any information as to whether this Treaty will be deposited with the League of Nations at Geneva?

Has Japan yet ratified the Treaty which she signed with Great Britain and France and Italy in regard to Bessarabia?

May we take it that the announcement to this effect that appeared in certain newspapers last week is incorrect?

Yes, as far as I know. We have no such information at the Foreign Office.

League of Nations (Refugees Commission)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the grant by the British Government of 153,000 gold francs made in the past financial year to the League of Nations High Commission for refugees will be repeated in the ensuing financial year?

If the hon. Member will refer to the terms of the reply which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gave him on 19th March he will see that the sum of 153,000 gold francs was not a grant by His Majesty's Government but the sum included in the League of Nations budget. I am unable to forecast what figure, if any, will be required for the expenses of the High Commission for Refugees in the next League of Nations budget.

Army and Air Force Act (Amendment)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give the names of members of the Committee to be set up for the purpose of inquiring into the question of amending the Army and Air Force Act, and especially the possibility of abolishing capital punishment in the Army and Royal Air Force except for the crimes of murder and treason-felony; what will be the terms of reference; whether this Committee will be empowered to take evidence and summon witnesses; and by what date it will be asked to render a Report?

I have been asked to reply. His Majesty's Government propose to set up a Committee to explore the questions affecting the discipline of the Services which were raised by the Amendments on the Order paper of the 2nd April last, and to report to the Board of Admiralty and the Army and Air Councils. The Committee will consist of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary of the War Office in the chair, the Second Sea Lord, the Adjutant-General, and the Air Member for Personnel, assisted by their expert advisers. It will be open to the Committee to summon witnesses should they think proper. The Committee will sit after Easter, and their Report will in due course be considered by the Government.

Will the right hon. Gentleman lay before that Committee the Report of the Committee that sat and reported in 1919 on similar matters, especially the Report which recommended that the death penalty should not be awardable in so many cases as at present?

Certainly; they will have that Report. It is in their possession now. It would be impossible to conduct the inquiry without that Report.

Will the Report of the Committee be available to Members of the House?

That is for the Government to decide later, when the Government have fully considered the whole of the proceedings, and the Report, first of all, of the three Services and of the Committee. Following upon that, it is for the Government to say whether the whole matter shall be laid before the House.

How is the House to be made aware that the Report has been rendered, so that we may know the proper time to ask for it?

They will not. This is a Committee specially set up for the purpose of inquiring into definite amendments that were down on the Order Paper a fortnight ago, and in every case, with the exception of two amendments that, as I distinctly stated, no Government, Liberal, Labour, or Conservative, could ever accept, every amendment will be inquired into by this Committee. That is within the terms of reference, and the whole matter will be reported to the House in the ordinary way.

Ex-Ranker Officers (Committee)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Committee inquiring into the case of the ex-ranker officers will take evidence and hold its sittings in public?

Anglo-Persian Oil Company

asked the Prime Minister whether he can give an assurance that the Government holding of shares in the Anglos-Persian Oil Company, and thereby the controlling interest in that company, will not be sold without the sanction of Parliament?

As has been stated before by my right hon. Friend, the present Government have no intention whatever of selling the Government holding in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, and although I am unable to bind my successors in office, I should not consider that any Government would be justified in parting with the control of the company without the approval of Parliament.

Are we to understand that no negotiations are now going on with Sir Robert Waley Cohen and these people?

Russia (Trial of Intelligentsia)

asked the Prime Minister what steps he has taken, in view of the request of Monsieur Poincaré, to make representation to the Soviet Government in favour of the 18 members of the Intelligentsia who were placed on trial before the Revolutionary Tribunal at Kieff on the 20th of March?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether this question does not come within your ruling against questions affecting the internal administration of a foreign country?

The question asked? what steps he has taken," meaning what steps the Prime Minister has taken. I think it is proper to ask that question.

Will you allow a question as to the treatment of British prisoners in the United States or South Africa to be put?

This question refers to a communication from the French Government to the British Government. Therefore, the initiative has been taken apparently by another Government in writing to the British Government.

His Majesty's Government do not feel that this is a matter in which they can usefully make any official representations to the Soviet Union Government, who are, however, well aware of the views of His Majesty's Government.

Seeing that the majority of these people who are being prosecuted are of the same opinion as the right hon. Gentleman in politics, does he not think that he ought to move a little faster?

Seeing that the representatives of the Soviet Government are here, has the Prime Minister no other gesture up his sleeves which he can make to these people?

Pre-War Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the plight existing amongst many pre-War pensioners; whether he is equally aware that the pre-War pensioners were promised that a Bill would be introduced at the beginning of the Session to remove the causes of their anxiety; whether he can see his way to introduce such a Bill immediately; and whether he can undertake that this Bill will have retrospective effect?

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now say when the Bill will be introduced to increase pre-War pensions?

I shall answer these questions together. I would refer the hon. Members to the answers which I gave on the 10th and 24th March in reply to questions by the hon. Members for North Portsmouth, Epping, and North Tottenham.

Does that mean that it will have a retrospective effect from 1st July of last year?

I said that the Bill would be introduced as soon after Easter as possible, and that until it was produced I had better not anticipate its provisions.

Cyprus

asked the Prime Minister what is the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to the future of the Island of Cyprus; and whether the inhabitants have been consulted, or will be consulted, as to their future destiny?

His Majesty's Government are not contemplating any change in the political status of Cyprus.

Housing

Evictions

asked the Prime Minister if he can now give the House the result of the investigations into the conditions of housing prevailing in Glasgow and Clydebank in respect of evictions for non-payment of rent; will he state the number of cases brought before the Sheriff and Burgh Courts for both these places; the number of orders for possession granted; and the number of actual evictions during 1923 and the present year, respectively?

As my reply contains a table of figures, I shall, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these decrees were granted on the application of petitioners?

Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to summarise the general effect of the reply? Can he state whether the figures correspond with those published in the newspapers?

Will the right ton. Gentleman take an opportunity, before the House rises, of explaining to the House exactly the position of affairs as he found them himself?

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the figures which he has in his hand in any way bear out the statements made from the benches behind him as to evictions?

I have stated that the figures are to be circulated, and if my hon. and gallant Friend wishes to raise the matter, he can do so.

In view of the fact that a Committee is to sit to-morrow morning to deal with this subject, would it not be very much to the advantage of the House that these figures should be placed officially in the possession of hon. Members?

On a point of Order. This is a matter which materially concerns the House. A Committee is to sit to-morrow morning, and unless the House is in possession of the figures, hon. Members can form no opinion upon this question.

I will read the reply: My investigations and negotiations regarding the situation in Clydebank are not yet complete, and I should prefer not

Cases brought before the Court.

Ejection Orders granted.

Orders carried out.

Glasgow Sheriff Court

1923

17,580

2,962

657

1924

5,911

1,571

338

to date

Glasgow Burgh Court

1923

9

1

1

1924

3

1

0

to date

Clydebank cases in Sheriff Court (Dumbarton).

1923

313

149

1

1924

300

252

12

to date

asked the First Commissioner of Works the number of evictions that took place on the Well Hall estate, Woolwich, prior to the 12th February, 1924, and, if there were any, under whose authority were they effected; and how many evictions have taken place since the 12th of February and, if any, by whose authority?

Up to and including the 12th February last 13 evictions had taken place. They were all under the authority of the County Court after application made by my Department. No evictions have taken place since the 12th February last.

to make any statement until these are completed—

Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to finish? The Sheriff Court records do not enable cases brought on the ground of non-payment of rent to be distinguished from cases brought on other grounds, but I am informed that nearly all the ejection cases brought in the Glasgow Sheriff Court are on the ground of non-payment of rent. The following figures relate to all ejection cases on whatever ground they are brought:

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, but for the intervention of the County Court Judge, at his own instance, these evictions would have taken place?

The ordinary procedure is generally adopted by my Department, and it is only when the tenant makes default of payment on the order of the Judge that he can be evicted. The evictions can only take place after the Court has again been approached, and is satisfied that the order for payment has not been complied with. A warrant for eviction may then be issued.

Several HON. MEMBERS rose—

85 and 86.

asked the First Commissioner of Works (1) if he is aware that premises belonging to the Department at 56–58, Wardour Street, West- minster, now housing three families and being also their workrooms, are to be turned into offices and the tenants have notice of eviction; and whether, in the circumstances, a postponement of this order can be considered;

(2) whether he is aware that the property situated at 7, 8, 9, and 10, Little Dean Street, in the Parliamentary Division of Westminister, are housing families all under notice of eviction; and will he reconsider these notices?

I am afraid that the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The premises to which he refers in his questions are not owned by the Government, nor are they in the occupation of any Government Department.

Has the First Commissioner satisfied himself that it is true that the evictions are taking place, or is he merely questioning the actual ownership of landlords?

Whether evictions are taking place it is not for me to answer; they do not concern my Department.

Teeside (War Office Building)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that house building is held up on Teeside owing to the local supply of bricks being taken for the erection of a new camp at Catterick; and whether it is in accordance with the policy of the Government that a new military camp should take precedence over working men's houses?

I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave him on 9th April.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the present limited attempt to deal with the housing problem is being retarded by the drawing of 100,000 bricks per week from one firm alone; and that the Government can, if they wish, get their bricks without any increased cost and so allow this limited attempt to deal with housing to be proceeded with?

Do the War Office consult with the Ministry of Health in regard to their buildings as is done by the Board of Education and other Departments?

With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Cleveland (Sir C. Starmer), it is to be remembered that funds have been specifically provided by Parliament for the erection of certain works and therefore this Government is acting on the principle of carrying out the orders of Parliament in building these houses. These barracks contain quarters for married men, and married men in the Army have to find houses like anybody else. I have no information as to how far the drawing of bricks from that firm has interfered with other building, and I have no information as to the question of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) with regard to consultation between the Departments.

I gave the information in a previous question. I now ask whether it is the Government's policy to proceed with erecting barracks rather than houses and I have received no answer.

Necessitous Areas

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that there are 61 Members sitting in the House of Commons representing county boroughs, boroughs, and urban district councils, representing Poor Law necessitous areas, which are areas where the poor levy over Poor Rate is 3s. 2d. in the £; and, in view of the fact that continuous unemployment is the cause of these areas becoming necessitous, will he reconsider the decision of the Government not to give grants-in-aid to such areas?

The case of the necessitous areas was very fully considered before the decision of the Government was given, and my right hon. Friend cannot undertake to re-open it.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that many areas, notably the Dartford Division of Kent, are levying a Poor Rate alone of 10s. in the £, and does he not consider that a grant-in-aid should be made, having regard to the fact that men are stranded there who would return to other parts of Britain if housing accommodation were available?

King Hussein

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the answer to the telegram from King Hussein has now been delivered; and whether he can now tell the House the terms of the reply?

Instructions have been sent to His Majesty's Agent at Jeddah regarding the delivery of the answer to King Hussein, but I have not yet learnt whether the message has actually been communicated to His Majesty. The answer to the second part of the question must, therefore, be in the negative.

Ceylon (Executive Council)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his despatch to the Governor of Ceylon on the reform of the Executive Council will be published before the elections to the new Legislative Council, in order that the public may be able to express their opinion on the proposed changes in the constitution of that body?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to him on the 25th February. To this, there is nothing to add.

Uganda Railway

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies by what amount the revenue of the Uganda railway has exceeded the expenditure during the last three years without making any allowance for interest on the five and a half millions of capital involved in the undertaking?

The surplus of revenue, without providing for interest and sinking fund and expenditure from capital account and from the renewals and betterment fund was £36,523 in 1921, £124,066 in 1922 and £364,656 in 1923. The capital account as at 31st December, 1922, was £7,177,806.

Trial of Natives (British Dependencies)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what possibilities there are for a native in Nigeria, when placed on trial for his life, being able to secure special permission from the Governor to engage counsel to defend him; and in how many cases of the 381 natives executed in Nigeria since 1920 was this permission granted?

The appearance of counsel is forbidden in any matter before a Provincial or Native Court, and the Governor has no power to make exceptions. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise. There is no bar to the employment of counsel in criminal trials before the Supreme Court, and any case can be transferred, with or without an application from the parties concerned, from a Provincial Court to the Supreme Court if it is one in which it is considered desirable by the judicial authorities that counsel should be employed. I am considering the whole position in order to see if any change in the system is desirable.

By whose orders are counsel forbidden to appear to defend anybody on a capital charge in the Provincial Courts?

I have already stated that the distinction is made in both Courts, and I have also answered my hon. Friend, who has put several questions on this subject, that I am calling for papers in connection with the whole matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in other tropical British Possessions not only may counsel be engaged, but where a defendant in a murder case cannot afford counsel, counsel is provided and paid for by the Crown?

By what process of reasoning is a prisoner tried on a capital charge allowed to have counsel in the Supreme Court and not to have council in the Provincial Courts?

The process of reasoning must be the reasoning of those responsible. With regard to the second part of the question, it is because of that distinction that I am having inquiries made.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it is most important that prisoners to be tried on a capital charge should have the advice of counsel at the beginning of the proceedings?

It is because of that very fact, which appealed to me, that I am having inquiries made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in what other Dependencies the Nigerian practice is pursued of denying to the inhabitants the right to engage counsel to defend them upon grave charges?

The right of representation by counsel is not allowed in Ashanti or the Northern Territories of the Gold Coast. In the Protectorate of the Gambia, Basutoland, and the Bechuanaland Protectorate, this right is subject to certain restrictions. I am not aware of any other instance in which the right of representation by counsel upon grave charges is restricted.

May we take it that in considering this position in Nigeria he will consider the position in these other territories as well?

The intention of the inquiry is to deal with the whole, and certainly to get uniformity.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that justice is meted out, and clear up the mess left by the other parties?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider how much more desirable it is that these cases should be tried by their own tribal chiefs in their own way?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Government of North Borneo has followed the practice of the Nigerian Government in withdrawing from the inhabitants the right to engage counsel to defend them in the courts when charged with grave offences; and whether His Majesty's Government will take steps to have restored to the people the privilege of engaging counsel?

I am not aware what is the practice of the Government of North Borneo in this respect, but I will cause inquiry to be made of the British North Borneo Company.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that many of the presiding officers in the provincial and native courts of Nigeria are unable to understand the language of the accused, and have to rely upon interpreters; and whether, seeing that in such cases the position of the accused is gravely prejudiced, both by the limitations of the presiding officer and by the fact that they are not permitted to employ counsel to defend them, he will authorise the employment of counsel in all such cases?

The presiding officers in the native courts are native authorities and would, of course, know their own languages. In the provincial courts the presiding officers are European administrative officers, all of whom are required to qualify in knowledge of a native language. Owing to the great number of different languages in use in Nigeria, it is not possible to dispense with the use of interpreters, and the employment of counsel would in the majority of cases only necessitate an additional translation.

Iraq (Railway Construction)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what railway construction is at present proceeding in Iraq; who is carrying out this work; how is it being financed; whether the railway north of Mosul is being extended or will be extended to meet the Anatolian railways; and whether we have any arrangements with the Government of the King of Iraq for the safeguarding and free use of the part of the railway from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf which will pass through Iraquian territory?

I am informed that the Iraq Government has approved a proposal to extend to Kirkuk the branch of the Iraq railways which runs to Kifri, and will furnish the necessary funds. No charge will fall on British revenues. I do not understand the second part of the question. There is no railway in Iraq north of Mosul. The northernmost point on the Iraq railways is over 90 miles south of that town. No extension in that direction is in contemplation. The reply to the third part of the question is in the negative.

What I mean in this: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to safeguard our rights in case the line is extended?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman may rest assured that I am always safeguarding our rights.

German Exports (Preference)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will ascertain and state whether German syndicates of manufacturers are about to reintroduce the export rebate or bounty system; and whether any proposal has been made in Germany to reintroduce preferential or reduced railway rates and/or sea freightage for German exports?

I understand that a preferential railway tariff was introduced in Germany on the 1st March for iron and steel goods and railway rolling stock destined for exportation overseas, but I am not in possession of any details. This arrangement in its present form continues until the 30th June next. I am causing further inquiries to be made into the other matters mentioned in the hon. Member's question, and will let him know the result.

I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend. Will he make representations to the Reparation Committee so that, when railways are taken over under the scheme proposed, no such preferential rates shall be given to German manufacturers as against us?

Is it not a fact that certain preferential rates are contrary to the Treaty of Versailles?

British Empire Exhibition

Catering Contract (Glassware)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is aware that the firm who is providing the catering at the British Empire Exhibition has deliberately ordered supplies of Belgian glass for use throughout their establishments in the exhibition; and whether, seeing that this is contrary to the rules of the exhibition, he will insist that the firm in question shall substitute adequate supplies of British glass so that the exhibition may maintain its claim to be completely representative of British and Imperial products?

I have no information on this matter, but am making inquiries, and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.

School Children (Admission Prices)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he is aware that there is no reduction in the price of admission to the Wembley Exhibition for parties of children less than 100; that teachers who accompany these children have to pay the usual admission fee; that the amount charged for board and lodging in the hostel is 5s. per day; and that the price for a very ordinary tea is 1s. 6d. per child; and whether he is prepared to exert his influence to reduce the numbers for which lower admission fees are chargeable and also to secure a reduction in the cost of hostel and meal charges?

The answer to the first, second, third and fourth parts of the question is in the affirmative. I understand, however, that while the exhibition authorities do not feel justified in reducing the charge for admission in the case of organised parties of children below the scales which have already been fixed, they are prepared to admit children of any age as members of such parties, which will, in fact, consist almost entirely of children between 12 and 16 years of age. I understand, moreover, that arrangements have been made by the National Union of Teachers whereby it will be possible for the organisers of parties of children visiting the exhibition to take advantage of the full discount of 33⅓ per cent. which the Union has secured by taking a block of 100,000 tickets. The charge for tea, to which my hon. Friend refers, has been fixed by the caterers, but I am pleased to say that for the benefit of parties of children visiting the exhibition for the day only, arrangements have been made with the Y.M.C.A. for the supply of substantial meat meals at a canteen close to Wembley Park Station at a cost of 1s. per head or less. With regard to the charge for accommodation at the hostel, I should explain that the arrangements have been made by His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Middlesex Education Committee, and I am satisfied that the inclusive charge of 5s. per day, which covers not only two hot meals and a supply of sandwiches for consumption in the exhibition, but also the cost of providing the hostel with the necessary bedding and sanitation and of the services of doctors, nurses and a hospital ward, is moderate.

Will the hon. Gentleman make further inquiries into the facts which my question contains?

Before the hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask, is it not desirable that the name of the exhibition should be changed from the "British Empire Exhibition" to the "Yiddish Exhibition"?

Might I ask what arrangements the hon. Gentleman is making for the supply of water to these parties? They cannot afford to buy mineral waters and artificial drinks. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that if schoolchildren are encouraged to come in large parties, provision must be made for the supply of water to drink?

I shall have the greatest possible pleasure in trying to arrange that suitable facilities in that direction are made.

May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will press for the number of 100 to be lowered, in order that educational advantage may be taken of these visits? 100 is absolutely useless for educational purposes.

Sales (Hours)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department, considering that the Shop Hours Act, 1912, prohibits sales, with certain exceptions under Section 4, after seven o'clock at night, whether the Government intends to introduce legislation to enable exhibitors at the Wembley Exhibition to sell goods during the whole time which the exhibition remains open?

I have been asked to reply. Section 4 of the Shops Act, 1912, does not contain any provision to the effect suggested in the question. It requires shops to close for a weekly half-holiday, but provides for the exemption of retail trade carried on at an exhibition or show, if the local authority certifies that such retail trade is subsidiary or ancillary only to the main purpose of the exhibition or show. The exhibitors will have to comply with the Shops (Early Closing) Acts, which, subject to certain exceptions and extensions, require shops to be closed at 8 p.m. on days other than Saturday and 9 p.m. on Saturdays. No provision is made in these Acts to exempt the retail trade carried on at an exhibition or show, and it is not intended to introduce any legislation for this purpose.

Consular Service (Candidates' Sureties)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether the Government, with a view to avoiding hardship, will consider the desirability of waiving the extra surety required from successful candidates for the Consular service before they enter the service, and will he content with the personal bond of these men; and whether, seeing that the system of demanding an extra surety operates very hardly upon good but poor candidates, and that in the case of a clerk recently successful the surety cost him £19 in the shape of premium, he will make further investigations into the working of the present system?

This matter is at present under consideration, and I shall be glad if the hon. Member will repeat his question after the Easter Recess.

Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he can make a statement regarding the price of admission into the, Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew?

I am glad to announce

The Revised Scale of Charges for admission to the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, will be:

Description.

All days except Students' Days.

Students' Days (Tuesday and Friday—except Tuesdays following Bank Holidays and Good Friday).

Visitors

Free.

6d.

Sketching or Photographic Apparatus

3d.

3d.

Bath Chairs

3d.

1s.

Perambulators

3d.

1s.

School Parties (including a Teacher or Teachers).

Free.

6d. for 12 and 3d. for each additional 6.

Season Tickets (available for 12 months) (available for 12 months)

Visitors

5s. (any day during public hours).

Students

5s. (any day—also available before public hours on week days except Bank Holidays and Good Friday).

Bath Chairs

£1 10s. (any day during public hours).

Perambulators

£1 10s. (any day during public hours).

NOTE.—These charges will be brought into operation on Easter Sunday, 20th April, 1924.

Ordnance Survey Department, Southampton

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that labourers have recently been engaged for work at the Ordnance Survey Department, Southampton, at a basic wage of 19s. 6d. per week plus bonus; and will he take the necessary steps to see that adequate wages are paid commensurate with the present cost of living?

The unskilled labourers at the Ordnance Survey are in receipt of basic rates, which, with the cost-of-living bonus, amount to 35s. 2d. to 43s. 3d. per week of 39½ hours. It is open to the men concerned to make representations on the matter through the appropriate Whitley machinery, and any representations made will receive careful consideration.

Agriculture

Rates

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, as a result of the deficiency caused to spending authorities by the

that, commencing on Easter Sunday, admission to the Gardens will be free on all days on which 1d. is now charged. A revision of the other charges will also be made, and I will furnish particulars of these in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the particulars :

exemption from rates of half the value of agricultural land, an additional burden is cast upon rural ratepayers; and will he take steps to secure revision of the grants now allowed under the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, in order to alleviate this burden?

The revision of the grant under the Act of 1896 would require legislation, and my right hon. Friend cannot undertake to introduce a Bill for this purpose.

Unemployment Insurance

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will ascertain, for the information of the House, the views of the Agricultural Workers' Union upon the desirability of the agricultural industry being included in the Unemployment Insurance Acts?

I have been in consultation with both the unions which represent agricultural workers. I understand that they favour in principle the application of unemployment insurance to agriculture, but there are considerable practical difficulties, and, as the hon. and gallant Member has no doubt observed, it has not been possible to include proposals in this connection in the Unemployment Insurance Bill now before the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to confer with the Ministry of Labour on this question?

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can tell the House if the question of immunity acquired by recovery from foot-and-mouth disease will be fully investigated and considered in its possible effects upon home stocks, and its bearing upon exportation from this country, by the Research Commission which he recently set up?

I am informed that the Committee for Research into Foot-and-Mouth Disease may be expected to investigate carefully the question of immunity, but I cannot at present say to what extent their conclusions will bear upon the question of exportation.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the alleged discovery of the bacillus of foot-and-mouth disease in Germany?

I have a certain amount, but it is not sufficiently exact upon which to make any statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture to what cause the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Forty Hill, Enfield, is attributed; how many animals and of what kind have been slaughtered; and how many markets are affected?

The cause of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Forty Hill, Enfield, is obscure, the inquiries made having failed to obtain any clue as to the origin. The total stock on the farm, consisting of one bull, 25 cows, 32 other cattle and 17 pigs, has been slaughtered. In consequence of this outbreak, 11 markets have been affected.

asked the Minister of Agriculture for what length of time will footpaths or rights-of-way be closed against the public in infected areas; and what steps will be taken to reopen such footpaths or rights-of-way?

Footpaths are closed by notice of an inspector of the Ministry or of the local authority where such a course appears necessary or desirable as a precaution against the spread of disease. The time for which such restrictions are maintained depends upon the circumstances of the outbreak and the situation of the footpath, but I have no reason to suppose that restrictions are maintained longer than is considered essential.

Small Holdings (Rents)

asked the Minister of Agriculture if there is any machinery for ending the deadlock which arises when a small holdings committee and the Minister's Commissioner are unable to agree as to what constitutes a reasonable rent for the smallholders to pay?

As no case of deadlock has arisen in any part of the country, I trust the hon. Member will not object if I decline to answer a hypothetical question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the situation has arisen in Lancashire, that the Smallholdings Committee are anxious to reduce the rents for small holders, but the Commissioner cannot see his way to agree?

Yes, but the deadlock has not actually occurred yet. If it does, the Ministry itself will look carefully into the matter.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that some county councils are in the habit of charging their tenants' a rent to cover the repayment of the loans advanced for the purchase of small holdings; and will he take steps to prevent this being done, seeing that the land will ultimately belong to the county council?

Whatever may have been the pre-war practice, the position in regard to this matter has been altered by the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919. Under that Act, land acquired by a county council for small holdings must be let at the best sum that can reasonably be obtained, without regard to the cost of the land, sinking fund charges in repayment of loan, and other expenses, and I am not aware that any council is acting otherwise than in accordance with the statutory direction.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the rents of some of these small holdings are very expensive?

If I put cases before the right hon. Gentleman will he have them inquired into?

If I put cases before the right hon. Gentleman, will he give notice to the county authorities pointing out what is said?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that many pre-War smallholders have had their rents raised to help cover the cost of land purchased at a time when prices were highly inflated; and, in these circumstances, will he arrange that the burden shall be borne by the State?

In 1919 the then Government asked county councils to revise the rents of their pre-War holdings with a view to meeting the increased cost of tithe, repairs and other expenses of management of such holdings. There is no foundation for the suggestion that the rents of pre-War holdings were raised in order to reduce the loss on holdings provided since the Armistice. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

In 1919, when my predecessor gave directions that they should be raised, but I understand that most of them have been reduced since.

Will the right hon. Gentleman himself, personally, look into these matters: there seems to be ground for the grievances?

Veterinary Inspection (British Ports)

asked the Minister of Agriculture the cost of the veterinary inspection at British ports from 1st April to 31st December, 1923, and the net receipts from inspection fees for the same period?

The cost of veterinary inspection at British ports from 1st April to 31st December, 1923, under the Importation of Animals Act, 1922, was £7,243 and additional expenditure of £2,413 was incurred for clerical assistance and for the cost of an inspector in Canada. The net receipts for the same period were £17,804. In addition, £4,483 was received from fees for the inspection of horses exported from this country, the expenses of such inspection being £3,521.

Yes, Sir, at the end of the year I think it is highly probable there will be a profit, and we shall consider the question of a reduction.

Communist Conference (Police Attendance)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Home Secretary whether he will state to the House by whose authority and under whose authority two police officers, connected with the Secret Service Police, secreted themselves under the platform of the Rehearsal Theatre, Bedford Street, on Sunday morning last, while a conference of the Communist party of Great Britain was being held; and will he state to the House the reasons why such procedure was adopted; and also whether the Communist party is an illegal organisation and Communist propaganda contrary to law; and further, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent such occurrences in the future?

I have ascertained that it is the case that two police officers were found, as stated in the question, concealed on the premises on which, I understand, a conference of the Communist party was being held yesterday. They went there in the course of their duty, without specific in- structions or approval from me. The Communist party, as such, is not illegal, but the declared policy of certain of its leaders would, if carried out by the methods proposed, involve breaches of the ordinary law of this country, and a certain amount of vigilance on the part of the police is called for if they are to discharge their duty to the rest of the community. As to the circumstances in this particular case, I propose to confer with the Commissioner of Police without delay on the whole subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these two officers left behind them the books in which they had been taking notes, and that that proves very conclusively that evidence based on these notes might be accepted as evidence against the prisoners under certain conditions, and that by no process can these men identify the prisoners against whom they might be giving evidence; and will the Home Secretary consider the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman his predecessor that Communist propaganda under a Tory Government was not illegal?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why any political party should object to police officers being present? [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]

Before the Home Secretary answers that question, will he also state whether application was made to the persons holding the meeting to enable the police officers to be present, and is it the custom to secret the police under platforms?

Is it to be allowed that members of the Communist party are going to interfere with industrial disputes with which they have no concern?

rose —[HON. MEMBERS: "Let the Home Secretary reply."] But he is not replying, and I want to give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I shall draw attention to this matter—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Home Secretary!"] I understood he was not going to reply.

The hon. Gentleman need not understand anything of the kind. I was rising to reply when I was interrupted. My reply is that, until I have conferred with the Commissioner of Police, who is not in town, and whom I have been unable to see, I can add nothing useful to the answer which I have already given.

When is this ridiculous spying going to stop in view of the great amount of crime that is going on?

I wish to give you notice, Mr. Speaker, that, if you will allow me, I shall raise this matter on the Motion for Adjournment.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) in order in this House to accuse the police, who are carrying on their duties, as stated by the Home Secretary in the House this afternoon, of spying?

Hon. Members should not criticise those who are carrying out orders. They should criticise the Minister himself.

I want to ask the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) to withdraw his statement.

I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is your ruling that an hon. Member of this House cannot stigmatise in ordinary English conduct by officials, even when it is done under instructions?

It was not a phrase which I could call upon the hon. and gallant Member to withdraw. All I said, and 1 wish to repeat it, was that we must hold to the principle that the responsibility for taking action lies with the Minister, and not with the subordinates.

I was not attacking the minions of the law at all. I addressed my question to the Home Secretary. I was attacking the Department and the policy of the Department.

Business of the House

Will the Deputy-Leader of the House state the grounds on which he is proposing to move the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-night?

It is proposed to move the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-night in order to deal with only three items on the Paper. The first one covers the decision the House so emphatically reached with regard to the railway travelling of Members on Thursday last, and in view of that decision we regard the further stages of to-day as a formality. The second Order on the Paper, which is the Second Reading of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, ought not to be highly controversial. With regard to the Trade Facilities Bill, which is the third Order we propose to take to-night, let me remind the House that a long time has already been spent upon it both when the Money Resolution was before the House, and later on the occasion of the Second Reading.

We do not desire, in asking for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-night, to go much longer than about midnight. Let me remind the House what the position is with respect to the "Trade Facilities Act? That Act expired on 9th November last, and since that time it has been impossible to give effect to further guarantees. Provisional guarantees have been given to the extent of about £5,000,000, but effective action can-mot be taken on them until this Bill becomes law. The position is that important orders and important under-

takings have been held up, because this Bill is in its present position. Therefore, we hope that we shall not only get the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule, but also the completion of the Committee stage of the Trade Facilities Bill.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether on Wednesday the. Minister of Health will be able to make a statement on the housing position?

Has the House to go on sitting until the Committee stage of the Trade Facilities Bill is completed?

We are largely in the hands of the House. I merely invite a general willingness to get through the Committee stage to-night, but we do not contemplate forcing the House against its will to sit beyond midnight.

In view of the large number of important Amendments on the Paper, which I think should be fully discussed, would the right hon. Gentleman put the Trade Facilities Bill as the first Order, and leave the unimportant matter of the payment of Members' travelling expenses until later?

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Report of Supply and on the School Teachers (Super-annuation) Bill and on the Trade Facilities Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 117.

Division No. 58. ]]

AYES.

[ 4.0 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Buckle, J.

Egan, W. H.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Falconer, J.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Charleton, H. C.

Finney, V. H.

Ammon, Charles George

Clarke, A.

Foot, Isaac

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Climie, R.

Franklin, L. B.

Ayles, W. H.

Cluse, W. S.

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Baker, W. J.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Banton, G.

Costello, L. W. J.

George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

Barnes, A.

Cove, W. G.

Gillett, George M.

Batey, Joseph

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Gosling, Harry

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Crittall, V. G.

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Black, J. W.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Bondfield, Margaret

Dickson, T.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Bonwick, A.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Groves, T.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dukes, C.

Grundy, T. W.

Briant, Frank

Duncan, C.

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Broad, F. A.

Dunn, J. Freeman

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Brunner, Sir J.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Harbord, Arthur

Hardie, George D.

Marley, James

Smillie, Robert

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'dine, E.)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Harris, Percy A.

Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Maxton, James

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Snell, Harry

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Middleton, G.

Spence, R.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Millar, J. D.

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Mills, J. E.

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Hemmerde, E. G.

Mitchell, R. M. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Stamford, T. W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Montague, Frederick

Starmer, Sir Charles

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Morris, R. H.

Stephen, Campbell

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Hirst, G. H.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Hobhouse, A. L.

Mosley, Oswald

Sturrock, J. Leng

Hoffman, P. C.

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Sutton, J. E.

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Muir, John W.

Tattersall, J. L.

Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie

Murray, Robert

Terrington, Lady

Hudson, J. H.

Naylor, T. E.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Isaacs, G. A.

Nichol, Robert

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Nixon, H.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Jewson, Dorothea

O'Grady, Captain James

Thornton, Maxwell R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Oliver, George Harold

Thurtle, E.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Paling, W.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Jones C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Perry, S. F.

Viant, S. P.

Jones J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Phillipps, Vivian

Vivian, H.

Jones Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Pilkington, R. R.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Jones Morgan (Caerphilly)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Steven

Jones T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Purcell, A. A.

Warne, G. H.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Raffety, F. W.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Keens, T.

Rathbone, Hugh H.

Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.)

Kennedy, T.

Rea, W. Russell

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Kenyon, Barnet

Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Weir, L. M.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Richards, R

Westwood, J.

Lansbury, George

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Leach, W.

Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Cheimsford)

Whiteley, W.

Lee, F.

Romeril, H. G.

Wignall, James

Linfield, F. C.

Royce, William Stapleton

Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B.(Kenningtn.)

Livingstone, A. M.

Royle, C.

Williams, Maj. A. S.(Kent, Sevenoaks)

Loverseed, J. F.

Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Lowth, T.

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Lunn, William

Scrymgeour, E.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

McCrae, Sir George

Scurr, John

Windsor, Walter

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Mackinder, W.

Shinwell, Emanuel

Wright, W.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Maden, H.

Simpson, J. Hope

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Spoor and Mr. John Robertson.—Mr. Spoor and Mr. John Robertson.

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

MacDonald, R.

Atholl, Duchess of

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Eden, Captain Anthony

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Becker, Harry

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Ferguson, H.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Berry, Sir George

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

Betterton, Henry B.

Guest, Capt. Hn. F. E. (Gloucstr., Stroud)

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Blundell, F. N.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Burman, J. B.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Pennefather, Sir John

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Hartington, Marquess of

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Philipson, Mabel

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

Remnant, Sir James

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

Hogge, James Myles

Rentoul, G. S.

Clarry, Reginald George

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Clayton, G. C.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hughes, Collingwood

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)

Cope, Major William

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col.-George L.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lumley, L. R.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Stanley, Lord

Waddington, R.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Steel, Samuel Strang

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Warrender, Sir Victor

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Wells, S. R.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Sutcliffe, T.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Commander Eyres-Monsell andColonel Gibbs.—Commander Eyres-Monsell andColonel Gibbs.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wolmer, Viscount

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

Reasoned Amendments

I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if you are now in a position to give a general ruling on a matter which I brought to your notice last week, namely, when a reasoned Amendment is on the Paper to a Bill on its Second Heading, and the word "now" has been struck out of the Question, whether in that case the reasoned Amendment is to be deemed to have been passed, or must it be put as a separate Question to the House?

Yes. I have to thank hon. Members who conferred with me as to the effect of Standing Order 31A on a reasoned Amendment to the Second or the Third Reading of a Bill. Following that conference, I have come to the conclusion that this Standing Order should be taken to apply only to the case where the House decide that the words proposed to be left out from the Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second or a Third time" stand part of the Question, and, that in the converse case, the second Question should be put for the insertion of the words of the proposed Amendment.

May I ask whether that ruling, in the converse case, would apply if the Amendment were merely to add the words, "upon this day six months."

I think it applies to both cases, where the Motion that the Bill be now read a Second or the Third time has been rejected by the House.

Agricultural Wages Bill,

"to provide for the regulation of wages of workers in agriculture; and for purposes incidental thereto," presented by Mr. BUXTON; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Attorney-General, and Mr. Walter Smith; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th April, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]

Selection (Standing Committees.)

Standing Committee C

reported from the Committee of Selection; that they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Sir Clive Morrison-Bell; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Thomas Inskip.

Report to lie upon the Table.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL [Lords.]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL [Lords.]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time, To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 113.]

Orders of the Day

Supply

REPORT [10 th April ]

Resolution reported,

Civil Services Supplementary Estimate, 1924–25

Class II

House of Commons—Members' Travelling

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £70,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the House of Commons."

Resolution read a Second time.

I beg to move to leave out "£70,000," and to insert instead thereof "£20,000."

The Leader of the House at Question Time, when detailing the business of the House, stated that the Report stage of this Vote was only a formal matter. There have been occasions in times past when the House has reconsidered its attitude, and has defeated on the succeeding stage a proposal which it had originally passed. There are a great many Members here to-day who unfortunately were not in their places when the first vote was taken, and I sincerely hope that those Members, when they have heard the arguments which will be advanced on both sides, will vote, for a reduction of £50,000, so that we may solve this question once and for all. I move this reduction because I do not agree that we should substitute third-class for first-class fares. If we are to give these fares at all—I do not agree with the principle—then we must give first-class fares. I am against the principle of giving free fares to Members of Parliament at all, but, if they are to be given, they should certainly be of a class befitting the position of Members of Parliament.

Looking back on the Debate the other day, I see no reason why Members of this House who are well enough off to buy their own railway tickets should be accused of interested motives in opposing this Vote. On several occasions hon. Members on the Government Benches were not content with attacking Members on this side of the House collectively, but they singled out hon. Members for their attack. I suggest that if we are to discuss this matter we should discuss it without any heat. But just as hon. Members opposite may attack Members on this side of the House by saying that because we can afford to buy these railway tickets we are interested in seeing that Members opposite do not have them, so we could say similar things. I have never attacked hon. Members opposite, either as a party or individually, with being interested in the issue that is before us. But it would be perfectly possible, if we are to indulge in personalities, to point out that hon. Members opposite are interested in having these facilities. It would be perfectly possible to point out that those Members who may not be well enough off to buy these railway tickets only enter the House to get these facilities. I am not going to advance any such opinion, but if hon. Members opposite attack us in the way that they did last week, it would be perfectly possible for Members on this side of the House to return such an attack, and I do not think it would be in accordance with the dignity of this House to indulge in any such methods of controversy.

After all, this is a considerable principle. It was a great principle when the whole question of the payment of Members originally came before the House. I do not know how many Members who are here now were here then, but at any rate three years ago, when the Debate took place, it was a question of principle, and the House decided not to give these free fares. To-day, it is still a question of principle, and hon. Members on this side of the House and on the benches below the Gangway opposite who disagree with the proposal that Members should have these facilities, disagree because they consider the nation's money should not be paid away to the tune of £70,000—it is no small sum of money—in order that Members of this House, extremely few of whom cannot afford to buy their own first-class fares, should have those fares paid for them. There are hardly any Members of this House who cannot afford to pay their own fares. There are very few, I venture to say, on the Government Benches who cannot afford to do so.

The proposal that was advanced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) in the Debate last week, that there should be an inquiry set up, is certainly a better proposal than that we should pass this Vote without any inquiry. I think we should certainly have an inquiry to see how many Members there are who cannot afford to pay their own fares. At this time, when we are considering day after day points of view put forward by hon. Members on the question of evictions, on the question of the payment of rent for unemployed persons, and on similar questions dealing with a section of the population that cannot travel either first or third class, and having regard to the state of the country outside, we should save every penny.

There is much more than the mere sum of money involved. This House, and hon. Members of this House, have to set an example to people outside, and we should not vote sums of money to ourselves before we help those outside who are suffering far worse than the poorest Member of this House, and who, as hon. Members on the Government Benches well know, are in some cases unable to obtain food, much less first-class fares. In these circumstances, I do not think it is right that, so early in the Session as this, we should attempt to pass privileges and facilities for Members of this House, while people outside are not only unable to find such facilities, but are hoping that we shall legislate in order to better their conditions of life. Let us turn our attention to the more serious matter of the betterment of life outside this House. I hope the House will take its courage in its own hands, because the courage is in voting against and not in voting for this proposal. I hope Members will vote against it, so that the decision come to last week may be reversed.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so on the ground of the principle involved. I say most emphatically that this is a question which ought to have been clearly set out at the last Election, and ought to have been before the country as a whole for its decision, rather than that, at an early stage of this Session, we should vote this money to ourselves. The whole principle is one which, I think, must be distasteful to most Members of this House. We admit that we have the power to vote this money, and we are taking this power to-day to vote to ourselves a large sum at a time when we know that many classes in the country are badly in want of money and of every type of economy that can be practised by this House. Therefore, on the broad principle involved, this matter ought to be very clearly dealt with by the electors. If they do not want us to have it, it ought to be in their power to say so, and I venture to think that there is a very large section of the electors of this country who would rather see Members of Parliament getting, perhaps, a rather larger inclusive salary, than they would see legislation giving a concession of this sort, which may, as my hon. Friend has already said, be followed by other concessions. This general policy of piecemeal legislation is, I think, very distasteful. As was said in the last Debate, if you start this policy where are you going to stop? There are many members of county councils to-day who have to attend two or three times a week—I have myself, as a member of the education committee of a county council—to carry out their duties as county councillors in some of our biggest counties, and who have to travel a very long way. Why should not they have the same privilege 1 [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Then, I say, if that be so, let the country know what is being aimed at, and let them realise the endless vista that is opened out by this proposal. It is perfectly logical, I agree, that, if Members of Parliament are going to be given the right to travel free on the railways in carrying out their Imperial duties, the men who are carrying out the local duties of our country, which are so important to-day, should be considered as well. There is, however, no proposal to do that.

This is simply a proposal to give us the right to travel free to our constituencies from this House, and it involves, at a time when the money can ill be spared, and without consultation of the electorate at all, a sum of at least £60,000 or £70,000. On these grounds I most heartily second the reduction. I am very much (surprised that the Leader of the House should treat this matter as a formal matter. It may be so in his own case, but I venture to remind him that there are a great many divisions in this country where people do not look upon it at all as a formal matter. They look upon it as a very new departure which this House is taking without consultation with the electorate. I venture to say that, if the right hon. Gentleman would go down to his electors and consult them, he would find that a large section of them would entirely disagree with him in treating this as a formal matter. I hope the reduction will be carried, so that, at any rate, it may be realised that we, as the guardians of the public purse, have no right at all to vote to ourselves the sum of money which is now proposed.

I do not desire to debate the general question, but I desire to put to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a practical question. I find, on reflection, great difficulty in understanding how an Estimate so large as £70,000 is really justified if what the Treasury means, and what the House of Commons means, is to provide facilities for travel—first class, I know—between London, as the one terminus, and the constituency of each hon. Member as the other. There are 615 Members of this House, and, if one divides £70,000 by 615, one gets a figure of something like £112 or £114. I think I am right when I say that a first-class season ticket for 12 months between London and, say, Bradford, does not cost more than that; but the man who holds a first-class season ticket between London and Bradford can do with it a great deal more than starting from London and ending at Bradford, or starting from Bradford and ending at London. It enables him to travel free between any two points on that journey. It enables him to travel between Sheffield and Nottingham, or to leave London and get off at any station on the line, whether for the purpose of pleasure or for the purpose of addressing a political meeting; and I want to know from the Financial Secretary what is the basis upon which this calculation has been made, and what is the intention which the Government represents to the House as the one which is to be honourably observed by all of us if we use this facility.

I do not think it is the general wish of Members in any part of the House really to use this facility, if the House of Commons votes it, for any purpose except the purpose, bona fide of passing between London, where the House of Commons happens to sit, on the one hand, and the area of their own constituency on the other; and I think the country would have very grave reason to complain if, in fact, this facility were used, as a season ticket may perfectly well and perfectly lawfully be used, for all sorts of travel, on business or pleasure, between any two points lying between those termini. I am quite unable to understand how the railway companies can have provided the Treasury with so large a figure as £70,000, unless, at any rate, they have approached it on quite a different basis from the basis on which I think the House of Commons intended to approach it.

Therefore, I would ask the Financial Secretary these two questions: First of all, what is the intention of the Government as to the kind of journey which will be franked by this Vote? Do they or do they not intend that a Member of this House, for example, whose constituency happens to be 300 miles away, shall be able to use this facility in order to drop off at any intermediate point that he likes, and for any purpose, whether political, private, or commercial; or do they mean, on the other hand, that this is a facility to go between the constituency and Westminster, backwards and forwads? In the second place, is it not open to a good deal of question whether the system which the Parliamentary Secretary has sketched to the House, by which the voucher is exchanged for an ordinary railway ticket ought not to be reconsidered? I can understand it if a Member of Parliament has in his pocket a document which says, "Pass So-and-So, Member of the House of Commons for such-and-such a constituency, between London and his constituency." That is quite right. The ticket collector in one's own constituency probably knows one, either favourably or unfavourably, and public opinion will soon see, on that basis, that this facility is being used for its legitimate purpose. But it does appear to me that it would raise a very natural protest and indignation among the community at large if it could plausibly be said that this was nothing more than a ticket, say, for a commercial traveller, who might use it for any purpose between his constituency and London. On that basis we are not merely meeting what I think is a great inequality and grievance of the Member whose constituency is a long way off, but we are actually conferring upon him a wider range of choice under his ticket than a Member with a nearer constituency enjoys.

Lastly, may I point this out? If you take the London Members, who are something like 80 in number, what is regarded as a reasonable annual figure for them? I should have thought that £25 a year must on an average cover the London Members. It is very likely far too much. Suppose, then, that you could provide for the legitimate claims of the London Members, taking the longer with the shorter distances, for £1,000. Then take the Home Counties. Some of the constituencies, of course, are 50 or 60 miles off, but others are only just outside the borders of the Metropolis. How much for them 1 If you take a reasonable figure for the London Members and for the Home Counties, you will find that there are something like 450 Members left—I have taken, altogether, 160 or 165 out as representing London or Home Counties Members—for whom it is thought necessary, in this Estimate, to provide a sum of something like £65,000. I frankly confess that I do not understand that. I most warmly defend the proposal that we should, in the public interest, see that men, it may be poor men, who are called from a distance to serve here in Westminster, should not on that account find that they have a special burden put upon their shoulders; but I think I am expressing the feelings of a large part of the House when I say that they would much prefer that this proposal should be made in such terms and on the basis of such Estimates as make it perfectly obvious to the taxpayer and to the whole community that there is no misunderstanding as to its limitations.

If I do not say anything on the general aspect of the subject, I hope hon. Members will not think it is not because I do not feel as strongly as I have always felt on this question. I have always thought this was not the proper thing to do. I remain of that opinion. I have expressed it once in the Division Lobby, and I propose to express it again. But the speech we have just heard leads me to wish to put one or two further questions about the form of the Estimate, because when I perceive that the Estimate is for £70,000, averaging something like £113 per Member, on pure a priori grounds alone one would say that appeared rather a large sum. I start to compare this Estimate with the last Estimate which was put before the House, and some very curious and interesting points emerge, and I hope the Secretary to the Treasury will be able to give us some information as to the basis on which the present Estimate has been prepared. In 1921 the Estimate for paying for this Service was an annual cost and was set out as being £130,000. The purpose of this Estimate and the purpose of the last Estimate are not identical. The last Estimate was to cover the expenses of hon. Members travelling not only between London and their constituencies but between London and their homes, and in many cases that is a very different matter. For instance, my constituency is in Croydon and my home is in Kincardineshire. It is obvious therefore that in many cases there would have been a very great discrepancy between the two.

It was also for travelling between their homes and their constituencies.

I am not certain that the right hon. Gentleman is quite right. That was never cleared up specifically. What was laid down quite plainly was that the Estimate was for travelling between London and the constituency and between London and the home, and possibly, I agree, also between home and the constituency. This Estimate is only between London and the constituency, and I should hardly have thought the difference between £130,000 and £70,000 would have represented the diminution in cost caused by the abandonment of the proposal to have travelling between London and home.

But the matter does not stop there. If all the hon. Gentleman had to do was to explain to me that this discrepancy of £60,000 was justified by the abandonment of the proposal to travel free between London and home he would have a comparatively easy task, but unfortunately perhaps the task is not quite so simple as that, because since the Estimate of £130,000 was presented railway fares have been reduced by 33¾ Per cent. Therefore from £130,000, in order to get a comparison, you have to deduct 33¾ per cent. You take off, therefore, a third of £130,000 and you are left with a figure of £86,600. The comparison, therefore, is between £70,000 for travelling between London and the constituency and £86,600 for travelling between London and the constituency and London and home, and I do not quite understand how that discrepancy is going to be explained. It is true that the previous Estimate did not provide for free travelling for Members on the Treasury Bench whereas this Estimate does. Therefore there are, I suppose, something like 90 or 92 more people to be accounted for. Whether they ought to be provided for is quite another story, and I should not be surprised if, before the Debate closes, some hon. Members desire to express an opinion. I make the hon. Gentleman a present at once of the fact that he has 90 or 92 more people included in this Estimate than in the last, but that additional number is rather more than counterbalanced by the fact that the number of Members of the House of Commons then was 707 whereas now it is only 615. If you deduct 92 from 707 you arrive at the figure of 615, and I strongly suspect that whoever was making the calculation must have proceeded on some such assumption as that. If that be so, the Members who have disappeared from the 707 which composed the Parliament of 1921 are precisely those Members who come from the most remote parts.

How does the hon. and learned Gentleman know? I have looked up the Estimate and the Debate, and I can perceive nothing to warrant the assumption that the Estimate was not framed on the assumption that it was providing for all the Members of the House. If that is so, some explanation ought to be given as to the discrepancy. The reason I press this point, and the reason I think the right hon. Gentleman has in mind in pressing it, is because the practice of over-estimating in the Services in my opinion has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished, and if anyone interested in this aspect of the question looks at the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Navy Appropriation Act of this year he will see what I mean. It is true this is only relatively an insignificant thing, but, after all, the Treasury ought to set a good example to the Departments. It really matters to the taxpayer, because what happens when over-estimating occurs is that money is taken from the pocket of the taxpayer which is not necessarily wanted for the service of the year. It is true that afterwards the money goes into the Old Sinking Fund and reduces the National Debt, and so perhaps benefits the taxpayer or the general body of taxpayers, but that does not console the man from whose pocket you have taken it.

In presenting Estimates, therefore, the greatest care should be taken to make sure that over-estimating does not occur. I know what the hon. Gentleman would say in reply. I should say myself that this is a new Service, and it is very difficult to estimate. It is a general principle, and a right principle, that no Department should be allowed to accumulate a surplus fund at the end of the year, because if you did that you would be putting in the power of the Executive a very dangerous weapon. You would be allowing the Executive to accumulate money which it might ultimately use without the sanction of the House of Commons. But I do not know that these considerations necessarily apply in the case of a new Service, where you have a particular difficulty in estimating, or, at all events, in the case of a new Service which is going to be an annually recurring charge. Is it not worth considering in cases of this kind, where there may be a difficulty in accurately estimating the very first year's cost of a new Service, it being conceded that the new Service is going to be a continuing Service, allowing the Department to carry over a balance, subject, of course, to audit by the Controller and Auditor-General? In that way you avoid the necessity of the unexpended balance being taken by the Exchequer and put into the old Sinking Fund, and you start the Department off in the second year with the balance of the savings made in the previous year. It bears looking into. I do not suggest that it should be a practice to apply from year to year, but only in the first year of a new Service which is going to be a permanently continuing Service. I cannot see that the Exchequer and the Sinking Fund stand to lose much in the long run, and you might be saved possibly from the danger of continuous overestimating. To summarise the questions I have put, will the hon. Gentleman, in answering the questions which have been pertinently put by the right hon. Gentleman, explain the discrepancy between the last Estimate and this, bearing in mind the fact that the destinations differ, the number of Members and the reduction in railway fares?

As one of those least likely to benefit by the result of the decision of the House on the previous occasion, I am going to support the right of Members of this House to have the greatest possible facilities to attend to their business. After all, the House of Commons represents the people. There are 20,000,000 electors and 15,000,000 of them are working men and women who have to earn their breakfasts before they can eat them. A large number of them see more dinner times than dinners. [ Interruption. ] You have heard that before? I am pleased to hear it. Some of you do not understand it. It becomes the duty of the millionaire to tell us that we are not entitled to first-class fares. I do not want first-class. I have always ridden third-class and I have padded the hoof more often than I care to remember. I have worked for what I have got. Some people who are opposing us to-day never worked for anything they have. They are fortunate in their forefathers. I cannot boast of my ancestry. But the argument is that the nation cannot afford to allow its legislators to travel to do its business. We have a great lawyer who takes £70,000 a year in legal expenses. If he is worth £70,000, I am worth first-class railway travelling for public work. But, of course, brains count. I have not got any. It seems to be a most peculiar position for the big gentlemen who can travel first-class at the expense of their clients, who can have big fees paid them —[An HON. MEMBER: "Like the Attorney-General."] I do not care whether it is the Attorney-General or the Lord Chief Justice. They are all in the same boat and I am as good as they. Here I am, elected by the public of England to represent them, and I am entitled to travel as well as they do. It will only cost 1s. 4d. a day for me. It will cost you £2,000 a year for him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] Order for that Gentleman.

I will not tell you. No names, no pack drill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] Order yourself.

Will the hon. Member please address himself to the merits of the question?

The merits of the question are these, Mr. Speaker, that some of us have been elected by working-class constituencies. It does not matter to me, because I can afford to pay my fare quite easily, but I am thinking about my comrades from the North of England, Scotland and Wales, men who have no income except what they can earn. These men have to travel to this House. Surely it is only fair that they should be allowed to do their duty to their constituents. We are only asking for fair play for them. I am appealing on the point that this House should do its duty to these men. The hon. Members who moved and supported this Amendment have talked about being great Imperialists. In Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and all our great dependencies free railway passes are given to Members of Parliament, and they are first class passes. If that is good enough for New Zealand, Australia and Canada, it is good enough for us. Every member of the Australian Parliament gets to free first class pass all over Australia. Every member of the Canadian Parliament gets a first class pass all over Canada.

In South Africa every member of the South African Parliament has a free first class pass. It is suggested that we, the Mother of Parliaments, should have third class tickets, and some hon. Members, who are grandmothers of Parliament, tell us that we cannot have facilities to attend to our duties. Some hon. Members of this House have had to sit in the Committee Rooms because they could not afford to pay their fares home. It is all very well for the nephew of a millionaire to talk to us.

We are all here as public representatives. I cannot allow the hon. Member to indulge in this sort of talk.

I will say no more, Mr. Speaker, except that there is no argument against this case. All the Parliaments of the Empire give free passes to their Members, and the British Parliament ought not to be behind these sister Parliaments.

I was privileged on the last occasion to tell against this Resolution, and I propose to-day to vote against it once more. We wish to keep this matter off the personal basis. It is of the greatest importance at the present time that our constituents should not in the least lose faith in the present House of Commons, and I am afraid lest anything we do shall be misunderstood by the majority of our constituents. We are the trustees of public money, and I cannot help feeling that if we grant ourselves the luxury—because it is a luxury—of first class passes it will be misunderstood by a very large number of our constituents. There are certain Members whose constituents do not object to their having first class passes, and they would, in some oases, be willing to pay for the passes themselves, but that does not apply generally. If hon. Members went to their constituencies and asked them to give a genuine vote on this matter I do not believe that they would get 10 per cent, of the electors to vote for a Motion that we should spend £70,000 of the nation's money for this purpose. If hon. Members believe that, as I do, we have not the slightest right to vote this money. We believe that we represent the people; we may or we may not, but if we believe that the vast majority of our constituents are against our voting this money, it is a breach of trust to vote it.

A great deal has been said about the question of inequality between a London Member and a. Member who comes from Scotland. I admit that there is an inequality, but we shall never get equality. We shall never get equality, for instance, between a Member who is returned to this House representing a big county constituency 40 miles wide, which he has to cover as best he can, either padding the hoof, as the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) puts it, or travelling in a Rolls Royce, and a Member who sits for a constituency like the City of London, who has a very small amount of journeying to do. I would suggest that while we cannot have equality, we might have an arrangement which would make things more equal and which would not cost the nation an extra penny. We each get £400 a year. Supposing those whose constituencies are within 100 miles of Westminster were to receive £350 a year, and those outside that radius £450. One can do a, lot of travelling with £50.

My hon. and learned Friend doubts my statement. A great deal has been said about the dignity of the House and the necessity for travelling first class. I travel first class because it is a luxury and a matter of comfort. Perhaps the hon. Member for Silvertown will complain about it, but, at any rate, I have worked for the money which I possess, and my fees have not been on the scale which has, apparently, aroused the hon. Member's ire. I am in a position to- travel first class and to enjoy that small amount of extra comfort and luxury, but as far as dignity is concerned, if for any reason I had to come down travelling third class, I do not think I should lose the slightest bit of dignity. Some hon. Members say that by travelling third class a Member is able to meet his constituents. Do we always want to meet our constituents? The vast majority of my constituents travel third class for the same reason that I used to travel third class, when I was young at the Bar. They travel third class because there is no fourth. I am speaking for really poor people, small professional men and others who are my constituents and who are pressed for money, and I do not think any one of them would be pleased if I were to vote myself a first-class railway pass to and from my constituency. I hope the House will not be annoyed with me for pressing this matter, but I feel strongly about it.

Reference has been made to sleeping cars to Glasgow. I used to go to Glasgow in my football days and we did not think anything of travelling up on the Friday night and coming back on the Saturday or Sunday. Certainly we did not travel first class. The allowance of the Football Association was very elastic in those days, and is still very elastic, but it never ran to first-class expenses. I managed to maintain my dignity travelling third class in those days, and I should be able to do so again if the occasion arose. The rich man makes sacrifices in coming to this House. [ Laughter. ] I mean what I say; there is no nonsense about it. I am not a rich man. Supposing one of the hon. Members opposite who laugh is a rich man with a big country place, with comfort and luxury, and instead of staying there to enjoy it he comes here and takes part in hard work. He is making a. very great sacrifice in coming here, financially and from the point of view of luxury and comfort. I know many fellows who are slackers and who do not come here, but who enjoy the country and luxury instead of doing their duty to the State here. Therefore, rich men who serve either in Parliament or in county councils make a sacrifice, for which I admire them. With regard to the poor man, does he make a sacrifice by coming here? I am more familiar with poor men than I am with rich men.

Is the poor man worse off by coming here? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] Is it a great sacrifice that he makes? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] He gets £400 a year, and he gets the privilege of being in one of the most beautiful palaces. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members laugh. Do not let us be in doubt about this matter. They have the run of a very beautiful House, the privilege of dining on the terrace and of using the rooms here, and the right of bringing their friends. [An HON. MEMBER: "That will not pay the baker's bill!"] They are privileges, any way, and they are available to hon. Members. Moreover, if an hon. Member is a journalist or a person who can write, he must know perfectly well that directly he can add anything to his name his communications to the Press receive a very much higher remuneration than before. A large number of hon. Members, very properly, receive remuneration in the shape of fees for attending meetings at week-ends and making speeches.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member in order in discussing privileges on a question of payment of Members' expenses?

I do not think that is a point of Order. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will keep to the Motion before the House.

I am sorry if I have said anything that has given offence. If there are disadvantages in coming here there are also advantages. My point is, that even if there are disadvantages we occupy a very conspicuous position and we have to set an example. At no time in the history of England or of the world was it more important than it is to-day to emphasise the fact that people have a duty to the State and a duty to work for the State and to make sacrifices for the State. There are two classes of electors, one person who will make sacrifices and one person who will not. There is one person who in former days offered his vote for 2s. 6d. or 5s. The same man to-day says, "If you will vote in favour of my salary being raised by so much you will get my vote." A circular on those lines reached me before the Election. I say that applies to the lectors. It applies very much more to us here, and I am perfectly sure that it is our duty, unpleasant though it may be, to make sacrifices at the present time and to follow the example shown by justices of the peace who have to travel long distances, members of county councils and members of education committees who are at the present time content to do their work without remuneration and without public expense in the vast majority of cases. I appeal very strongly to Members to make this sacrifice and not to pass a vote which, I am convinced, will be thoroughly misunderstood in the constituencies and will be a great blow to the prestige of the present Parliament.

I wish to explain, as I was not here when this matter came before the House. It is more difficult for a poor man like myself than it is for a well-to-do man to vote for this Motion. It is the common practice on nearly all public bodies, whether it is the education committee, or the county council, or boards of guardians, and even local pensions committees, to have power to pay the railway fares of their members when they have to travel distances to attend the places of assembly. It is easy for ex-Ministers to come to this House and say they are opposed to putting more burdens on the taxpayer. I remember that the last Government, or the Government before, increased the salaries of certain Ministers from £2,000 to £5,000. Did any of those Ministers relinquish their salaries? Certainly they did not. I am a poor man, I want to do my duty by my constituents. I have paid hitherto for a season ticket. It costs me £13 10s. a quarter to travel between my constituency of Great Yarmouth and this House. The advantage of granting a season ticket is that the constituency, knowing they are paying for it, can, with greater right and greater expectation say to their Member, "We want you to go to this Government Department, and the other Government Department." I have often, on behalf of my constituents during the Recess, come to the Home Office and to the Reparation Office and to the Pension Office because I have had a season ticket. I want to fight for the electorate having the widest choice in the selection of Members to represent them in this House so that they can choose the man who is most fitted, the man who will most willingly give his time to public duties, and who is better able to discharge public duties than necessarily a rich man. It is easy for a rich man to come here just for the sake of a party platform if he thinks a General Election is coming near. I think that people are sufficiently enlightened to know these things, and they will take into consideration the benefits which they themselves will receive if they make it easier for representatives to discharge their duties more readily by granting them railway facilities. I think we ought to say to the Ministers that they might easily have ascertained what the cost would be of each Member having a first-class ticket to his constituency or to his home, or giving him a choice of one ticket or the other. I live in my own constituency, so the arrangement suits me, but I have a thought for others who are not so well situated.

I was not able to be present last week when the discussion took place on this matter. I wish to say that I support the payment of railway fares to Members. I must say I was disappointed to hear what the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said. If I were a representative, say for Aberdeen, and am asked to take a meeting at Edinburgh, would it be wrong for me to break my journey and take the meeting in Edinburgh? If the hon. Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) happened to be in Leith and wanted to take a meeting, would it be wrong for him to break off his journey at Newcastle? The reason why I support this Resolution is that I know so many of my Scottish Friends who have to represent Scottish constituencies. I know the hardship of their being stranded here week by week at the week-end. From the family point of view, I have sympathy with these men, apart altogether from the constituency. I think they should have the privilege of going home at the week-end, as they ought to go, and I think this House would be wrong to refuse that to them. I am sorry Members on my side are opposing this Motion. My own constituency is in London. Sixpence takes me to my constituency, and this does not mean anything to me, but I have sympathy with the brethren who live long distances away.

It is quite clear from the speech just delivered by the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Lane Mitchell) that he at least knows nothing about the proposal which is before the House. He has made a pathetic appeal for those Members who desire to go home, and it is precisely those people who are not provided for, because I think I understood from the Secretary of the Treasury that railway passes were to be provided only between the Member's constituency and Westminster. I agree entirely that Members should have those railway fares paid. You can put it on the ground of equality, and there can be no reason at all why a Member representing a distant constituency should have to pay out of his remuneration a large sum, whereas others, representing nearer constituencies, pay a much smaller sum. But that, on the ground of equality, could be adjusted out of the £400 a year, which was in fact a provision made to cover railway fares. I put it on another ground: the difference between the poor man and the rich man, and on that ground alone I think these railway passes should be paid, because I think every facility should be given for the poor people who suffer most in this country to participate in. the Debates which affect them so much. I am quite sure it would be extremely interesting to many of the unemployed and other poor people if they could be present this afternoon to hear what we are discussing. I would go a step further, and I am sure I am only anticipating a step that will be taken in the future. In order to have equality, you will have to make allowances for Members' lodgings or hotel bills. We shall be asking the Treasury for sustenance and billeting and rationing money while we are away from home, and also for postage. Notwithstanding that I strongly hold those views, I propose to vote against the provision now before the House and to vote for the Amendment. We have been accustomed from these benches to hear hon. Members speak one way and vote another way. Unlike many of them, I have some very sound reasons for so doing. In the first place, you have not got, and you know you have not got, any mandate whatsoever for making this grant to yourselves. If I asked hon. and right hon. Members of this House to put up their little hands and signify to me those who, in a faint whisper, mentioned to their constituents last December that they proposed to hasten up here and vote themselves £80,000, there is not one who would put up his hand. I know, as you know, that if I had told my constituents in a loud voice at a large meeting, that the first thing I proposed to do after the Election was to vote myself £68, which is my share of the spoil, I should not have been here.

Does my hon. Friend know that my constituency pay me first-class fare for coming here?

I have no doubt that a great many hon. Gentlemen are paid and are worth it, but that is a very different thing to a State grant. I think the very poorest in the land should have an opportunity of getting here. If they are to be provided for, I prefer that they should be provided for by the State rather than from party funds. I wish I could stand here and boast that somebody paid me to' come here, but nobody offered to do so. They did not think I was worth it. I would like to reply to the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones). We think on the same lines on some questions. When he made an attack in this House upon a right hon. Gentleman who was alleged to make £70,000 a year in legal fees, he missed the fundamental point that these are paid by the public, and if they are wise enough or unwise enough to pay at the rate of £70,000 a year, all I have to say is, good luck to the recipient! But it is a different thing when the hon. Gentleman challenges his own Attorney-General, who receives the same thing, because it seems to me well nigh shocking that the Attorney-General of a great Labour Government should be in receipt of £70,000, not from the individuals who make up the public, but from the State.

My second reason for voting against my conviction that Members of Parliament should have this allowance is that I decline the invitation of the Prime Minister to do what he is asking us to do and to go down to my constituents—I am going to give a little of the sob stuff now—and say to them, who I have no doubt will be very pleased to see me, "It is true that you want much needed relief in respect of pre-War pensions and other things, but we have had no time to deal with that matter. To you, the unemployed, we have made a great any promises, but we have had no time to find any solution for you. Then as to the housing problem—"

Have we had time? The housing problem is one of the most disastrous so far as the health of the people is concerned, and we have had no time to find the solution of that.

If the hon. Member for Silvertown has a solution with which he can go to the Minister of Health, then he is a made man, if he was not one before, for that is what we all want. "We have not had time to deal with the sorrows of the voters, but we have had plenty of time to vote ourselves £70,000. Do you not think I am a clever Member of Parliament?"

We have listened with a great deal of interest to the speech of the hon. Member, and I quite understand his attitude, as he prefers walking to riding, though, looking at the pictures, he was very glad to get a lift on a motor car or a railway train when he had his well-known walk. In reference to the Vote before the House, the principle of granting railway facilities is already conceded, and the real issue which we have to decide now is as between third class and first class—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—or rather the reduction of the amount of the Vote by an amount equivalent to the difference. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] But that does not affect what I am about to say. I have had some experience during the last twelve months of observing the practice in the Dominions and the Colonies in this matter. I have met many wealthy men and people of high standing in the Dominions, and I have never found one who felt degraded because he accepted the position which prevailed on his election as Member of Parliament by accepting free railway tickets.

It is the practice of every other Government in the world to give free railway facilities to its members, but I am more particularly considering the case of the Dominions which are intimately connected with Great Britain, and have modelled many of their methods and rules of procedure upon those of the British Government. I was pleasantly surprised to find in Australia that as soon as a man is elected a Member of Parliament he is given a little medallion which he attaches to his watch chain, and that gives him free railway travelling over the whole of Australia and also over the whole of New Zealand, and the same thing applies to New Zealand where the Member of Parliament has free railway travelling over the whole of New Zealand and the whole of Australia. It has been mentioned that the railways there are State railways. In that respect the people there are wiser than we have been, but it costs money all the same, for there is that much less income coming into the railway.

Some question has been raised about Members of the Government receiving these travelling facilities free. The biggest surprise which I found in the Commonwealth Government of Australia was not that the Government representative received free railway tickets, but that they received them not only during their period of service in a Government but for the remainder of their life. If hon. Members doubt my word there are gentlemen in this country who have got that little gold badge on their watch chain which entitles them to free railway travelling over the whole of the Dominion for the remainder of their lives whether they are in Parliament or out of it. In addition once a year a Member is entitled to railway facilities for his family to go for a holiday. Further, as we know, in Australia most of the railway journeys are long and they are chiefly by night, and not only is a Member of Parliament entitled to free travelling by day, but he is also entitled to free travelling by night and to free sleepers. Not only that, but that little magic medallion which he carries on his watch chain enables him to travel free on any tramway service or any other means of transport that is owned by the municipality or by the State. I am not going to talk about the salaries and the other privileges which they enjoy, which are more than we have ever dreamed of or ever expect to get, but the conclusion to which I came as I stood in the Parliament House of the Commonwealth of Australia is that I had struck the wrong patch, and that they have taught us how to do things very much better than we have done them ourselves.

That would apply also to Africa. When I was in Africa I found the same facilities applying to all the Members of Parliament, but there is another system there of what they call the provincial committees, and they are allowed free travelling in their own State, while Members of Parliament have free railway travelling over the whole of South Africa, and they were more astounded when I told them that we wore not provided with railway facilities than I was when I heard that they had got these facilities. In fact, I felt as if I were blacklegging and working under price. I consider that I am as much entitled to railway facilities when doing my work in this Parliament as the Members of Parliament in the Dominions are entitled to railway facilities. Somebody may say that that is a small matter compared with ours. The Commonwealth Government itself is smaller, but you have got to remember that there are six States besides the Commonwealth and five of these have Upper Houses, so that the aggregate of members is very much more than the number here, and they are all provided with free railway travelling over a large dominion.

The change of representation in the House of Commons is bringing about the necessity for these facilities to be given to representatives so that the opportunity may be afforded to the poorest of the poor, who have the ability and the desire, to represent constituencies in this House. There is no loss of dignity in it. With regard to the question of third class as against first class, I do not believe that there should be any differentiation. There ought to be only one class, as we see in the Dominions, and on the great Continent of America, where everybody pays the same price for travelling, save in the case where there is a little bit of extra facility provided for those who can pay a lot of money— I do not happen to agree with it, but there may be a special part for somebody who is a millionaire—but for the general mass of the public there is only one mode of transport, and the same conditions apply. I agree with the principle involved in this Vote, because I believe that it is a long-delayed measure of justice.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has referred to the case of Australia and New Zealand. May I remind him that the railways there are State owned, and perhaps there could be no better argument than he has given against nationalising railways in this country? But I did not rise to argue that matter. When this Motion was first before the House I voted in favour of it, and I did so against my own convictions but because I did not want, quite irrespective of party, any Members in this House whose constituencies are far from the House of Commons to be at a disadvantage as compared with those whose constituencies are near the House of Commons. I agree that it should not be a question of money in regard to facilities for coming into this House and representing the people. I agree that there is a very large number of men in this country, who, unfortunately, cannot afford to come into the House of Commons, and who perhaps would be very much more desirable in the interests of the nation than many of us who are here now; and for that reason we should do everything we can to give facilities for those who are not well off financially. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) has said that if we consulted our constituents he doubted very much whether 10 per cent, of them would be in favour of this Vote. Since this Vote was first before the House I have not had an opportunity of consulting my constituents, but my constituents have had an opportunity of communicating with me, and I have seen nothing but criticism of the fact that we Gentlemen here are voting ourselves quite a large sum of money when there are so many appalling, cases of distress throughout the country.

It would be ridiculous to suggest that £70,000 spread over our national expenditure is a very large sum of money. But the question is one of principle. We are supposed to be doing everything we can here to economise the nation's expenditure. We are also supposed to be doing what we can to help the unemployed. Yet whilst we are not succeeding in doing everything that should be done to remedy those grievances, we are able in the small space of less than a week to rush through a Measure to grant ourselves £70,000. What I would like to suggest to hon. Members is this, and I hope that I may be taken as speaking quite sincerely and independently of any party feeling. Those Members who live at a great distance from Westminster should not be penalised in comparison with those whose constituencies are almost adjacent to the House. Is it not possible for everyone who represents a constituency which is 25 miles or more distant from this House to have first class railway vouchers to enable him to visit his constituency when he wishes to do so, and also to have sleeper accommodation in going, say, to Scotland? The cost of those vouchers could be deducted at the end of the year from the total remuneration paid to the 615 Members of this House, and we could divide equally the balance that remained. That would mean that the burden of travelling expenses would be borne equally by the whole of the House, that we would get a reduced remuneration, and that the country would be spared the necessity of providing the extra £70,000 at a time when even such a sum can ill be afforded. In addition to that, we would be setting an example which we are always preaching in the country, but which few of us are practising.

There are two arguments which have been used against this Vote. First, there is the argument as to the merits, and, secondly, the argument which is directed to showing that we ought to use this money for some other purpose. With great respect I say that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in the latter argument. I know that I want money spent on things in which my constituents are very much interested, but I know also that by voting for this particular proposal I shall not retard or hamper the hope of getting that provision made for those other things by £l, let alone by £70,000. The question whether money is to be voted for this purpose must be decided on its merits. The question whether money is to be voted for other purposes in which I am more interested will also be decided on the merits of those particular questions, and without relation to the question whether we spend £70,000 in this way or not. Therefore, I will deal only with the merits of the question. The right hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University said that it would be a good thing if there were equality, but he added that there could not be absolute equality. Of course not. But this is a question of equality in a matter of real need and a matter which affects the efficiency of Members of Parliament in the discharge of their duties.

It stands to reason that if a man has to travel between the House of Commons and his constituency, say, from Scotland, and has to travel probably at night in a crowded third-class carriage, when he arrives at the House of Commons on Monday morning he is not in a fit state to carry out his duties efficiently. That goes without saying. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I do not know whether hon. Members who jeer at that statement have ever done it. The right hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) referred to his travelling to Glasgow to play in a football match. I have travelled third class to and from Scotland. One can do it when one is healthy and young and fit. Then nobody minds travelling occasionally in that way. But many hon. Members of this House are past the prime of life, and are not very fit—you cannot be very fit if you attend constantly to your duties in this House—and it is a serious hardship to them, and seriously affects their capacity to discharge their duties as Members of this House, if they have constantly to undertake these wearing journeys to their constituencies. Therefore, it is misrepresentation to say, if it be said, that we are voting this sum as a matter of luxury. It is rather a question of the efficiency of Members. One of the most important points made was that the Vote might be liable to misrepresentation in the constituencies I am prepared to face that issue I think that if it were put to a vote in the constituency, if a sudden plebiscite were taken without arguments being heard, the proposal might be turned down, but I am confident that if I went to my constituency I would be able to make my electors understand perfectly the reasons which animated me in supporting this proposal.

A suggestion has been made by one hon. Member, and I cordially agree with it. It was that we should get this money by deducting it from the salaries of other Members of Parliament. However that may be done, I think it is a very good proposal. But it does not happen to be the proposal before the House, and we cannot vote for it. If it were before the House, I would agree to it. I shall vote for justice and fair dealing to those hon. Members who come from distant parts of the country. The only way in which I can do that on the issue before the House is by voting for this proposal. There is the question of the amount of the Estimate. An hon. Member spoke about the finicking point raised by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). I do not think he quite grasped the point. The question is whether we are voting too much money to attain the object which we have in view. It seems to me that we are voting a great deal too much money. I do not believe that the cost will be £70,000 for 450 Members of Parliament. That seems a preposterous sum. I hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be able to reassure us on the point. I appeal to the House to come to a decision quickly. The hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. Harmsworth), who spoke twice on this subject on a previous occasion, added nothing to his previous remarks, and I think that the House is prepared to give its decision.

Hon. Members in all parts of the House have addressed questions to me in reference to a comparison between the scheme of 1921 and the scheme of to-day. I have also been asked questions as to the details of the Estimate now before the House. May I say, first of all, that if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. Harmsworth) were carried, it would be the death of this proposal, for, quite clearly, no one could do anything of a practical character with the very small balance that would remain. I regard it as unnecessary to-day to argue the merits of this proposal, partly because that was done by the Lord Privy Seal in the previous Debate and' partly because the House has already decided by a very large majority in favour of this proposal. I will confine myself, therefore, to two or three points. I take, first of all, the question asked by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson), which turned on a comparison between the scheme of 1921 and what is proposed now. The suggestion of my hon. Friend was broadly to the effect that, if you take that comparison, the provision of £70,000 is excessive. Let us review the facts. In 1921 the scheme provided for first-class fares for every Member of the House, and also included provision for the Irish Members, who were, at all events in name, with us then.

The scheme of 1921 did not provide for every Member of the House of Commons. It provided for Members of the House of Commons, but not for Ministers.

I think that that is correct on the actual figures, but now that my hon. Friend has raised that question, I take the opportunity of clearing it up, not only from his point of view, but from the point of view of the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle). What the precise figure was I do not exactly remember, but at all events there is no doubt that the Government of the day intended that Ministers should be included. That was made perfectly plain in the replies to questions which were asked in this House on 12th May, 1921, by hon. Members who were anticipating the Debate that would take place in June. They sought to ascertain whether the proposal included Ministers as well as private Members. The best way in which I can deal with that question is to repeat, in the exact form in which it is printed, what appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT of 12th May, 1921: kept in mind in framing the Estimate which we now submit to the House.

These two points, together with the fact that we have excluded 92 Members who now come within the Free State area gives us, I think, a fair basis of comparison as between the £130,000 suggested in 1921 and the £70,000 suggested to-day. I will proceed at that point to the next part of my argument and tell the House how the Estimate is made up. That leads me, naturally, to the questions which were asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). He asked whether this Estimate of £70,000 was not high, and suggested, I think, that it was on the basis of season tickets for Members between London and their constituencies. I cannot make it too plain that it is restricted to vouchers between London and the constituencies, but taking it on that basis, it is true we could have obtained season tickets for Members between London and the constituencies for about £70,000 per annum, and hon. Members might well ask why this course was not adopted and why we fell back on the voucher system. I think a short reply is this, that it is tolerably clear, on the facts of the situation, that there would be an element in the season-ticket system which we should not use but for which we should be paying. I think that hardly admits a doubt, and, in any case, I wish to make it perfectly plain that this scheme is purely experimental up to the end of the present Parliamentary Session, and it was considered both from the standpoint of criticism outside and of economy in working this scheme, if the House decides to adopt it, that we should proceed upon a voucher basis.

Then the question arises as to whether in fact £70,000 is not excessive and whether we could not cover this service with a much lower figure. On that point I cannot, and I do not think anyone could, give a firm estimate to the House. All kinds of considerations have to be kept in mind. There are, for example, Members of this House who, in fact, reside in their constituencies, whose homes are in their Parliamentary divisions, and they will be entitled, if they go home every week-end, as many of them do, to use their vouchers. Strictly speaking, they are using the vouchers as between London and the constituencies, and in cases of that kind especially when Parliament is sitting, as it now does, during the greater part of the year, there will be a great deal of use of the vouchers. Not only that, but Members will get the use of the voucher during the Recess, because, as I have just reminded the House, we propose to include the Recess period. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] We felt, on consideration of all the facts, that we could hardly exclude the Recess. Many Members do come to London during the Recess and have to go back to their constituencies, and, in any case, there are Members residing in London who will use vouchers during the Recess, but who will not, perhaps, use them at other periods of the year. To seek to draw any distinction as between the Recess and the remainder of Parliamentary time is to run oneself into difficulties, and I am quite satisfied, on looking into all the facts, that there might be an injustice in the system if it were so restricted. Therefore, the Recess is included.

It is true there are some hon. Members who will not use the vouchers to anything like the same extent as others, but, within the limit of the Estimate of £70,000, it is possible to provide for about 33 journeys per annum if Members use the vouchers between London and the constituencies. [HON. MEMBERS: "Every Member?"] Every Member. Undoubtedly, that appears to be high, and there may be many Members, as I say, who will make use of the vouchers much less than others, but, in any case, in matters of this kind, we must be perfectly satisfied that we are on the right side, as far as the Estimate is concerned. I do not think, on the whole, there is the danger of over-estimating, which my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon feels, and in connection with which he made a proposal for carrying over to a subsequent year any surplus which might emerge. I am bound to say that I should find it difficult, as any Financial Secretary would find it difficult, to accept that proposal, the effect of which would be to make it very hard to frame any Estimate for the subsequent year. Having regard to the fact that, despite conditions following upon the War, we are gradually getting nearer to strict estimating, I think, on reconsideration, the hon. Member will agree that it is hardly worth while to press this proposal. That is, more particularly so when we are dealing with a matter which, as I have already pointed out is purely experimental and in regard to which we can change—should the House so decide—to a season-ticket basis at some later date, either in the present year or at any other time if we find, in fact, that is the more economical way.

But beyond all question we must be satisfied we have covered the service, because it would be very difficult to bring in an additional Estimate; but if we had to do so I think the voucher basis would be our great safeguard. There is one other point on which I desire, in a word or two, to give the House some information. Reference has been made to the practice of ordinary season ticket users in this country, and it has been asked whether it will be possible for Members using these vouchers to break their journeys at various points between London and the constituencies to which they are proceeding. I wish to make it clear that such is not our intention in the Estimate now before the House. We desire to adhere strictly to the purely public character of this provision as between London, the Parliamentary centre, and the constituencies which hon. Members represent.

There are hon. Members who wish to visit and consult their constituents during the Recess.

I do not think, on reconsideration, the Noble Lord "will press that point. Many Members come to London quite necessarily during the Recess, and will have to go back to their constituencies, and I do not think you can restrict the provision in that respect; but on the question of breaking journeys, I think the great majority in the House will agree that there should be no breaking of journeys in the use of these tickets. If it is merely to do private work, certainly all Members would rule that out, and I think we should rule out even public engagements, unless those engagements are connected with and in the constituency which the hon. Member represents. There is, however, one difficulty, and perhaps hon. Members will bear with me if I deal with one point of detail. Some journeys are so long that they require to be broken. For example, take the case of the journey to the extreme North of Scotland. A natural break in such a journey would be Edinburgh or Glasgow. For a break of that kind, rendered necessary by physical and other reasons, there must be a common-sense provision, and there is no desire on the part of anybody, in the event of the scheme being adopted, to make it more difficult for hon. Members to overtake their work. The scheme is designed for quite the contrary purpose.

In conclusion, may I give some points of detail about the voucher system, on which I am sure to be asked questions by hon. Members unless I make a statement at this stage. Mr. Speaker has very kindly made provision that in the event of the House adopting this Estimate, vouchers will be available for all hon. Members who desire them to-morrow in the office of his Secretary between the hours of 2 and 7 o'clock, and on Wednesday between the hours of 11 and 4 o'clock. In the case of the first book, that is with regard to the first 12 vouchers, Members will be asked to name any point in their constituencies, and fill in themselves any point in their constituencies, to which they wish to proceed, and for the purposes of that first book, at all events, there will be no restriction to one particular point in the division, but, in the interests of accurate estimating and of obtaining a precise knowledge as near as we can get of the cost of the scheme, after the first book is exhausted and, indeed, during the time when it is in process of being used, Members will be invited to name one point in their constituency which will afterwards be the fixed point to which these vouchers will be issued, and after that I think the House of Commons must expect them to make any local provision for themselves which they may require.

Let us take the case of a constituency where three main lines radiate from London with no cross communication at all. Would it not obviously be a great injustice to compel the Member for such a constituency to select one point while in regard to the other parts of his constituency, served by other lines, he will not have any facilities for travelling?

I think it is very difficult to get rid of every anomaly which will arise under this scheme, but I am advised by those who have to prepare the Estimate that it will help very greatly if we can get some precise point, and I should think the average Member will have no difficulty in finding a point in his constituency which will give him a reasonable convenience even in the case of large county divisions.

In the case of a Member representing several universities, some of which are as far apart from each other as Newcastle and Bristol, can the hon. Gentleman indicate a central point?

My hon. Friend has put this point with his usual logic, but I said the other day that special provision would be made for University Members. As regards the Scottish Universities, I said hon. Members could obtain a voucher to proceed to any of the four Scottish Universities, and the same applies to my hon. Friend. Hon. Members in that position will receive vouchers which they will be able to fill in for that University town to which they wish to proceed.

Do I understand that the only reason for turning down the season ticket idea is because of what the country might think?

6.0 P.M.

The hon. Member cannot have listened to what I said. What I said was that it so happens that on a season ticket basis, first class, the Estimate would be about £70,000 per annum, but on consideration of all the facts, and looking to the fact especially that there may be an unused element, and that the whole thing is very largely in the nature of an experiment, we came to the conclusion that it was better, at all events up to the end of the present Parliamentary Session, to put it on a voucher basis. I am perfectly satisfied that the House does not want to spend more than is strictly necessary on this service.

I am afraid the hon. Member is basing his price on the basis of the single first-class ticket, as com- pared with the considerable reduction which the railway companies make for season tickets. Take my own case as a case in point. The first-class fare from my town is about 35s., but the company grant a season ticket for a year for £40, and consequently 33 times 35s. is more than the annual season ticket. That is my point.

I can assure the House that we have taken all these considerations into account. The whole matter was worked out on a season-ticket basis, and I would remind the hon. Member that it is no use for this purpose to deal merely with an individual case. I assure the hon. Member—and I am quite willing to discuss the details privately with him afterwards—that this is the only foundation on which we can tell the House to-day what the scheme is likely To cost. There is only one other point, and it turns on the position of London Members.

Before the hon. Gentleman passes to his last point, I should like to get this perfectly clear and specific. He speaks of the voucher basis, and he has discussed the impropriety of breaking the journey. I follow that, but I am more concerned to understand quite specifically what is the intention of the Government on the basis of this Estimate, not when there is any breaking of the journey, but when you take your voucher, when you go to the booking office, get for it a ticket to your constituency, and use that ticket to go to a certain portion of the distance and no further. I am extremely familiar with the proposition that at one time it was sought by the railway companies to say that a person could not go a shorter distance with the ticket which he had for a longer distance, but, as a matter of fact, over most of the railways of the country to-day it is possible to do that. I can, for instance, buy a ticket to Bradford and, if I choose, get out at Nottingham, and as long as I give it up and abandon all my rights, nobody is better pleased than the railway company. This is not a question of estimating, but will the hon. Gentleman state the intention of the Government, and the Members of the House of Commons will make it their duty to see that the intention is observed. Is it the intention of the Government, on the basis of this Estimate, that there is to be no use of this voucher system except for the purpose of travelling the whole distance from this House to the constituency?

I am indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for putting that point. The intention of the Government in making this Estimate is that the journey should be made between London and the constituency, and that it should not be broken, because, quite clearly, a Member breaking the journey at any point short of his constituency is not travelling to his constituency, strictly, at all events, on a public duty, and we want to put it beyond the shadow of a doubt in that connection.

On the same point as that put by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), I want to get this quite clear. Take the case of a man who is going up to his constituency, and whose constituency happens to lie the other side of an important station where all fast trains stop. He may find it convenient to pursue the rest of his journey by motor car from the main station where the trains stop, but under the hon. Gentleman's system, I understand, he will not be able to take a ticket except to a station in his constituency. Under the answer given to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley, he will not be expected to get out at any station short of his constituency. Will this not place him and the accounting officer in some embarrassment?

There are all kinds of difficulties and anomalies in any scheme of this kind. When I was replying to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley, I said you must not break a journey halfway up, say, to the North, because quite clearly that would have no relation to the constituency. The case put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood) is different, because he lands on the borders of the constituency, which is an entirely separate question. I do not want to be bound to the exact details this afternoon, but I should say that a case of that kind is quite capable of adjustment. There are many points of that kind that must be cleared up between the accounting officer of the House of Commons, who will be responsible for the issue of these vouchers, and hon. Members themselves. Speaking off-hand and without committing our- selves, however, I should think anything short of the constituency in the kind of consideration advanced by the right hon. Member for Ripon, namely, landing in the environs of it, would present no difficulty in practice. An hon. Member behind asked me a question which is, I think, of general interest, namely, whether Members would be restricted to one journey per week. Let me make it plain that there is no restriction on the use of vouchers by hon. Members. I do not make that statement in order to encourage licence in railway travelling, which is inconceivable, but to bring out the point that the number of vouchers is not limited to any individual Member, and when I mentioned 33, I only did it because that is the basis of the expenditure which will be covered by £70,000 under this scheme.

The other point, with which I was endeavouring to conclude, had reference to the London Members. If a London Member resides in his constituency, he will be entitled, if he so decides, to use a voucher in travelling between Westminster and his constituency, which also happens to be his home. If, however, he happens to reside elsewhere in London, but still represents a London constituency, I am afraid he becomes subject to the rule that these vouchers do not apply to the homes of hon. Members, and there does not appear to be any concession, as far as he is concerned. We cannot, of course, provide in the case of Members representing constituencies outside London for the voucher to cover the journey between any station either on the District or other underground railway and the London termini. The idea is that the tickets should operate to the constituency in any part of the country from the terminus in London. I think we have got some of the outstanding difficulties in connection with the scheme out of the way, and, looking to the very heavy programme which the House has still to overtake to-night, I venture to ask hon. Members to let us have this Vote now.

I am sorry not to be able to respond to the appeal of the Financial Secretary. I would have responded to it if his speech had done what he hoped it had done, namely, cleared up the questions which had been asked. He has endeavoured very courteously to answer the questions that have been asked, but, in doing so, he has raised far graver doubts in the minds of hon. Members on this side than those which existed before. He has justified, in the first place, the size of his Estimate, so far as I can see, on two grounds: in the first place, he has provided travelling facilities during the Recess, and, in the second place, he has adopted a voucher system rather than a season ticket system, which would have been cheaper.

No, the season ticket system would have cost about £70,000 per annum. It so happens that, on the basis of 33 journeys, the voucher system will be about the same, but I think the Noble Lord will agree that in practice it will be rather less. We must, however, be covered in the Estimate.

At any rate, the hon. Gentleman can get a certain Estimate of £70,000 on a season-ticket basis, and he is very uncertain as to what will happen under this scheme. Let us take the Recess question first. I am afraid that really the hon. Member's Scottish logic must have been at fault when he made this Recess proposal. It means that because, while Parliament is sitting, hon. Members of this House have definite business in London, therefore, while Parliament is not sitting, it shall still be presumed that whenever they come to London they come on constituency business.

What possible assumption could be more fallacious? It is clear that the number of times hon. Members visit London on anything remotely like Parliamentary business during the Recess is infinitesimally small. As a matter of fact, hon. Members prefer to be in their constituencies at that time, and it is probably very much better that they should be. Look at the anomalies of this extraordinary proposal. There may be an hon. Member whose home is in the North of Scotland, and whose constituency is in the Midlands. If he wishes to get from his home in the North of Scotland to his constituency in the Midlands, he must not use a voucher for that, but what he can do is to go very carefully via London, and get a voucher for the whole journey from the North of Scotland to London, and then go on, out of his own pocket, to his constituency. The Financial Secretary is assuming that, whenever an hon. Member comes to London during the Recess, he is coming on Parliamentary business. Is it, or is it not, to be regarded as always admissible for an hon. Member to obtain a voucher from his constituency to London 1 Is it always to be regarded as a proper thing to do for an hon. Member to take a voucher for a journey from his constituency to London, no matter for what reason he is coming up? Is there any bar, any point of honour or etiquette?

Let me say at once, that it does not matter what scheme was devised, we could not get rid of a kind of obligation that all hon. Members should see that the scheme was not abused. If I were asked personally what should be done in circumstances of that kind, I should say that an hon. Member coming to London on purely personal matters not connected with his constituency, for enjoyment or anything else, should not use the voucher, but I ought to make it plain that there is nothing in the system, save his own honour, to prevent his using the voucher, and I cannot conceive of any scheme which would get rid of a difficulty of that kind. We must put all hon. Members on their honour, and I have no reason to believe that it will be abused.

I have no doubt it will not be abused, if it be clearly stated, but what the Recess provision appears to amount to is this, that while during the Session an hon. Member may not use the voucher for travel between his constituency and his home, yet in the Recess an hon. Member might easily, and quite properly, use the voucher for that purpose. What it will be honourable for an hon. Member to do during the Parliamentary Recess, it will be dishonourable for him to do during the Parliamentary Session. Therefore, if you are going to ask hon. Members to keep to a definite code of honour, a definite rule of etiquette in this matter, it must be clear what they may do, and what they may not do. The hon. Member himself had said he preferred not to adopt the season-ticket system, because he would, by the season-ticket system, have been paying, to a certain extent, for services that were not used. But, surely, under the voucher system he is running even greater risks of having to pay for services that ought not to be paid for. I hope I do not flatter myself, but I do believe I am a person of average intelligence. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] If hon. Members do not agree with that, I hope they will, at least, agree with the next thing I am going to say, that I am a man with an average sense of honour. And yet, after listening to this Debate, and to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, I should not really know, if I were going to use these vouchers, what I might do or might not do.

The Financial Secretary is the very last Member of the Government that one ever wishes to accuse of not having thought out a proposal, because we all know that he is one of the most clear-headed Members in this House. Yet he comes forward, on behalf of the Government, with this scheme, vague, ragged, indeterminate, and yet, at the same time, depending entirely upon a definite code of honour. There can be only one possible explanation, namely, that it was so important that it must be brought in, forsooth, before hon. Members went on their Easter holidays, even if the scheme were rather half-baked, and not clearly defined. Really, I do not think that this is the kind of form in which any Estimate ought to be presented to the House, but especially I do not think it is the form in which this particular Estimate should be presented. I have not hitherto intervened in any way in debates on this question, either this year or in 1921, and I do not intend to make a speech on the subject now, but I should like to conclude what I have said with one or two words on the general principle. Various hon. Members, such as the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall), have referred to the experience and practice of other countries, and especially of our Dominions, in this matter. I am not quite sure that the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean was as well acquainted with the conditions in the Dominions as he would have had us think. But I, also, have a good deal of experience.

I would really like to understand what the hon. Member meant by that statement. After six months' inquiry, I think I ought to know a little about these conditions.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon. I really did not mean that. What I had in my mind to say was that he did not seem to be very well acquainted with conditions of travel in the United States of America or Canada.

Previous to my visit to Australia, I spent six months travelling through America, from New York to San Francisco, and all the States. I ought to know a little about it.

The hon. Member spent six months travelling through America and Canada, and I spent about five years. Really, it is not an important point, but, as the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean thinks that there is only one form of railway carriage in Canada, I presume his travels in Canada were conducted in a more luxurious way than travelling, as I have had to travel, by tourist sleeper, and I should recommend him that experience before he says there is only one form of travelling there. I, too, have had very considerable experience of various foreign countries, and of various foreign countries where payment of Members and payment of travelling expenses are in operation, and I come back to my own country feeling that, of all countries in the world, this country is peculiar in the public respect in which, in spite of everything, Parliament is really held, and I have seen by experience that nothing has done more to reduce the respect of Parliamentary bodies in other countries than the very sort of thing that we are doing here this afternoon. It is not a question of right and wrong. I agree fully with hon. Members opposite that there are any number of very telling arguments that can be deduced in favour of this Estimate. I share very strongly the feeling many hon. Members have expressed, that we ought not to prevent our colleagues who do really need this provision from obtaining it, but, in the eyes of the country, the House of Commons is one. We have no right to consider each other as if we were separate individuals. The House of Commons is one, the reputation of the House of Commons is one, and this is not a question of right and wrong, but of pure, constitutional expediency and experience that this kind of Vote in a Parliamentary assembly does really sap the confidence and the respect in which Parliamentary institutions are held in this country.

Is the hon. Member in order in suggesting that the Parliaments of the Dominions are held in less respect than the Parliament of this country?

I can assure the hon. Baronet that I am not going to discuss matters like this in a mealy-mouthed way, or to be deterred by that kind of argument; but, if he asks me, I would reply that I do think the respect in which the House of Commons is held in this country is much higher than the respect held for Parliamentary Assemblies in any Dominion. That is my opinion, and I say that if we pass this Vote we shall be striking a serious blow at that respect in this country.

The House has taken much more time than was anticipated in discussing this subject, though I make no complaint whatever of the speeches, because they have been brief and to the point. But I ask the House to remember that on Thursday the whole ground, I think, was covered, and, by a majority of about two to one the plan of the Government and the principle of the proposal were accepted by the House. I only now say that experience alone can provide the way for overcoming the anomalies, it may be, or the difficulties that will be revealed by experience, and that the House cannot profit now by further discussion on these points. In view of that, I would appeal to the House to proceed to the other business.

"Divide"]: I can assure hon. Members opposite that we have not the slightest intention of being hustled by shouts of that sort. I should like, with great respect, to make a vehement protest against the manner in which the Government are regarding the importance of this Vote. They gave us extremely short notice last week that they were going to bring it forward, and they seem to regard it as a mere question of spending £70,000. That is not the question before the House. The question is one of principle of the utmost importance, which has only been discussed for two or three hours, and which, I can assure the Government and hon. Members opposite, is regarded as a very serious matter, indeed, in every part of the country.

As I was prevented, by indisposition, from being present last Thursday, I desire to say that I intend to oppose this proposal for this reason: that I regard it as highly indecent and improper that we of the House of Commons should be voting ourselves money in directions of this sort, without adequate reasons. In these times; when everybody else is being called upon to retrench, when no one can live at the same standard at which he lived before the War, particularly when all who* are dependent on railway freights, or have to incur railway charges, are feeling the excessive charges of the railways at the present moment, I hold it is highly improper for the House of Commons to vote itself free railway passes. What we have to remember is that the high railway freights and the present cost of railway tickets are by no means unconnected with the decisions that have been taken in this Chamber, and it seems to me important that we, who are Members of the House of Commons, should be made to feel personally the effect of our own legislation, and if we are to regard it as a proper thing to claim exemption from the burdens and the charges which fall upon our fellow countrymen and which may be increased as a result of the legislation or of the events in Parliament, then we are admitting a principle which is entirely wrong and very dangerous. It is a thousand pities that we of the House of Commons should regard ourselves as one of those sheltered industries which, whether the country is prosperous or not, always rely on being able to feather our own nests.

The cry has been raised—and this is the other point with which I wish to deal—that we on these benches are trying to keep the poor man out of Parliament. That was said to me in a Lobby just now by a friend of mine who is a member of the Socialist party. With all respect, I venture to assert that that argument—I will not call it humbug, for that is an unparliamentary term—is ludicrous. Everybody knows that it is impossible for a really poor man, by himself, to be in Parliament at the present time. What really poor man can afford to pay his election expenses? Such a man, if he wants to come to the House of Commons, has got to be backed up by a party organisation which is prepared to pay £500 or £1,000 for his election expenses. Therefore, to talk about us trying to keep the poor man out of the House of Commons is perfectly absurd. No poor man can afford to enter the House of Commons at the present time, unless he is allied to a political party. Then he can come; then there is no difficulty for him.

At the present moment we have scores or even a hundred Members, I suppose, who are in the position that they would not be able to be here unless they could rely for financial assistance upon some organised political party. Therefore, those Members who have to face the expenses of railway travel, so long as that railway travel is necessary to them to keep in touch with their constituencies, are subject to a charge which they already are able to meet, either personally or by the assistance of their party. In so far as the poor man is concerned, all we are asked to do this afternoon is to pay the bill out of the taxpayers' pocket instead of out of the pockets of the trade unions or the party organisations. It is, therefore, no question of keeping the poor man out of the House, and to say so is humbug and nonsense. The proposal goes so far as to include Ministers. It is quite clear that the Ministers of the Crown cannot be regarded as poor men, although it may be that they are insufficiently remunerated for their valuable services. I desire to say one thing in answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair). He led us to believe—I took down his words—that Scottish Members arrived in this House in a condition in which they were not fit to carry out their duties. [ Laughter and HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] The hon. and gallant Baronet is himself a Scottish Member, and I am an English Member, but he will perhaps allow me to assure him that we on this side of the House have no complaint to make at all in that respect.

I think the Noble Lord will find that what I actually said was that it was a matter of the efficiency of Members of Parliament—that a Member who travelled all through the Sunday night in a third-class carriage did not arrive in a state of efficiency.

I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Baronet thinks that Scottish Members are inefficient. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!" and "What about your own side?"] He is trying to argue, presumably, that under the present system Scotland does not get fair representation. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Well, sufficient representation. My point is that, whatever else can be said against the Scottish Members, we hear quite enough from them, and see quite enough of their activities.

The statement of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury dealt with a great many difficult points that suggests to my mind that this proposal has been brought forward in the wrong way. In my view, even if this proposal is considered to be a just one, it ought to be brought forward, not in the form of a Supplementary Estimate, but in the form of a Bill. If that had been the case, then all the criticisms which have been brought against the proposal today, and last week, could have been submitted in the form of Amendments to the Bill, and, at any rate, some of them might have been incorporated in the Bill. I would suggest that it would perhaps have been much better to have brought forward a Bill at the present time and to have put in a stipulation or proviso that the Act should not come into operation until the beginning of next Parliament. That would meet the objection of a great many Members who believe that it is unfair and wrong to make this change without submitting these proposals to the electorate.

Whilst, of course, one must admit that a point of this sort would probably, almost certainly, have been swamped in the other issues at the General Election, I feel that if it had been embodied in an Act of Parliament which had been held over, held in suspense over the General Election, and then only be put into operation toy the passing of a resolution in this House, that would have been sufficient to give it prominence at the General Election and made certain that the electorate was in a position to register its views upon it. Personally, I am strongly opposed to the grant of railway facilities to Members at the present time, although I feel that had a proposal such as I have suggested been put into operation, then probably there might have been little to say against such a suggestion. At the time of the last Election I myself was opposed by a nominee of the political Labour party. That party, as we all know, declared that it had in its possession the one and certain cure for unemployment and for all other evils. I am going down to my constituency at Easter time. When I get there I shall be quite rightly charged with the fact that the only person in my constituency who has benefited at all in the lifetime of the present Parliament has been myself. Nothing whatever will have been done for the unemployed, or to put up any new houses, or to deal with any of the pressing and crying needs of the day. We, on the other hand, as my Noble Friend said, are a sheltered trade—I should like to say a privileged trade—and have been in a position to grant ourselves an increase of remuneration at the expense of the taxpayer.

If this principle is admitted I ask myself where is it going to stop? We have had a reference this afternoon to the state of affairs which might ensue in regard to the county councils and other local bodies, and I ask myself another question; if it was admitted—as no doubt it is—that in order to do our work efficiently we must travel to and fro, clearly it must be admitted with equal if not greater force that we must be fed, clothed and housed to carry out our work efficiently. So it seems to me that the logical sequitur of this proposal would be that all meals— food at any rate—served in this House should be free! [HON. MEMBERS: "And drinks!"] No, not drinks, and for this reason: that water is the only necessary drink and that costs nothing. Then clearly we ought to have at least two suits of clothes annually, of a pattern to be approved by the First Commissioner of Works, also an adequate supply of boots, and there must be the rent of a house, in, let us say, Eccleston Square! If an Amendment to that effect could have been moved to this Resolution the absurdity of the position would have been obvious to everyone. I have been asked why I did not move to that effect. Let me say, firstly, it was because Mr. Speaker would probably have ruled it out of order, and, secondly, there would have been quite a large number of hon. Members who would have been so lacking in a sense of humour as to think that my proposal would have been really serious.

One of the points raised by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was that these railway vouchers would be available during the Recess period. The whole object of these railway facilities is to enable hon. Members to travel between the House of Commons and their constituencies. During the Recess there is no House of Commons to travel to. The Financial Secretary said there were Members who lived in London, and who would only want to use the passes during the periods of the Recess. Now we have been told that these passes are not to be available to the homes of Members, and therefore that contention entirely falls to the ground. I can see no justification whatever for making these passes available during the Recess, whatever justification there may be for using them when Parliament is sitting.

Eventually, it is said, these passes will only be available to one fixed spot in each constituency. That may be very suitable and proper for Members sitting for a town or borough constituency, but that cannot be said to meet the case of country districts. There are many constituencies where there are two or more lines of railways which serve different portions of a constituency, and that is so in my own case. It may be that someone would wish to go from London to one corner of a constituency on one occasion and to the other opposite corner, perhaps 40 miles away, on another occasion. If hon. Members are only entitled to use these passes to one spot then they entirely fail in their object. I can imagine hon. Members asking what has that particular matter to do with the question we are considering in view of the fact that I am opposed to the whole principle of this Resolution altogether. Although I feel very strongly that free railway passes should not be granted to any Member, I can see no useful purpose that can be served once those passes have been granted by any hon. Member who refuses to avail himself of the privilege which has been thrust upon him against his will. Personally, I feel it is quite wrong for the taxpayer to be called upon to find this money. These expenses and, in fact, any remuneration of this kind for Members of this House should be found by the constituencies themselves on a voluntary basis.

My view is that if only the constituencies—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—were to make themselves responsible and provide for hon. Members an adequate sum then each constituency would be more free in regard to the choice of the representative, and they would be able when looking for a representative to avail themselves of the services of any man whether he be rich or poor, and having regard only to his fitness to represent them in Parliament. I strongly advocate the establishment in

every constituency of a fund raised by all political parties, but it should be raised voluntarily, and not by any form of compulsion, or capital levy, or taxation of that kind. In that case the constituencies would have complete freedom. The Members themselves would also have complete freedom, and the taxpayers would be saved what, in my opinion, is an iniquitous burden that is going to be thrust upon them by this Resolution.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 138.

Division No. 59. ]]

AYES.

[ 6.53 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Foot, Isaac

Kenyon, Barnet

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Franklin, L. B.

Kirkwood, D.

Alden, Percy

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Alexander, A. V (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Lansbury, George

Alstead, R.

Gillett, George M.

Law, A.

Ammon, Charles George

Gosling, Harry

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Lawson, John James

Ayles, W. H.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central).

Leach, W.

Baker, W. J.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Lee, F.

Banton, G.

Greenall, T.

Linfield, F. C.

Barclay, R. Noton

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Livingstone, A. M.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Loverseed, J. F.

Barnes, A.

Groves, T.

Lowth, T.

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Grundy, T. W.

Lunn, William

Batey, Joseph

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

McCrae, Sir George

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Birkett, W. N.

Harbord, Arthur

M'Entee, V. L.

Black, J. W.

Hardie, George D.

Mackinder, W.

Bondfield, Margaret

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Briant, Frank

Harris, Percy A.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Broad, F. A.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Maden, H.

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Marley, James

Brunner, Sir J.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Buchanan, G.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

Buckle, J.

Haycock, A. W.

Maxton, James

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hemmerde, E. G.

Mills, J. E.

Cape, Thomas

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Mitchell, R. M. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Chapple, Dr. William A.

Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

Montague, Frederick

Charleton, H. C.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Clarke, A.

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Climie, R.

Hillary, A. E.

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Cluse, W. S.

Hirst, G. H.

Murray, Robert

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hobhouse, A. L.

Naylor, T. E.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Compton, Joseph

Hodges, Frank

Nichol, Robert

Comyns-Carr, A. S.

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Nixon, H.

Cove, W. G.

Hogge, James Myles

O'Grady, Captain James

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie

Oliver, George Harold

Crittall, V. G.

Hudson, J. H.

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Darbishire, C. W.

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Paling, W.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Jewson, Dorothea

Palmer, E. T.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Parry, Thomas Henry

Dickson, T.

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Perry, S. F.

Dodds, S. R.

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Phillipps, Vivian

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Pilkington, R. R.

Dukes, C.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Dunn, J. Freeman

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Potts, John S.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Purcell, A. A.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Raffan, P. W.

Egan, W. H.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Raffety, F. W.

Falconer, J.

Kennedy, T.

Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

Finney, V. H.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Rathbone, Hugh H.

Rea, W. Russell

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Steven

Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Snell, Harry

Warne, G. H.

Remnant, Sir James

Spence, R.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Rendall, A.

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col D. (Rhondda)

Richards, R.

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Stamford, T. W.

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Ritson, J.

Starmer, Sir Charles

Weir, L. M.

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Stephen, Campbell

Welsh, J. C.

Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford)

Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Westwood, J.

Robinson, W. E. (Burslem)

Sturrock, J. Leng

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Romeril, H. G.

Sullivan, J.

Whiteley, W.

Rose, Frank H.

Sutton, J. E.

Wignall, James

Royce, William Stapleton

Tattersall, J. L.

Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B.(Kenningtn.)

Royle, C.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Williams, Maj. A. S.(Kent,Sevenoaks)

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Scrymgeour, E.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Scurr, John

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Sexton, James

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Thurtle, E.

Windsor, Walter

Shinwell, Emanuel

Tillett, Benjamin

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Toole, J.

Wintringham, Margaret

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Tout, W. J.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Simpson, J. Hope

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Wright, W.

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Turner, Ben

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Sitch, Charles H.

Turner-Samuels, M

Smillie, Robert

Viant, S. P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.—Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Vivian, H.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Wallhead, Richard C.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Pattinson. S. (Horncastle)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Pennefather, Sir John

Atholl, Duchess of

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Gretton, Colonel John

Philipson, Mabel

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Berry, Sir George

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Remer, J. R.

Blundell, F. N.

Hartington, Marquess of

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Bonwick, A.

Harvey, C. M. B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

Roundell, Colonel R F.

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hood, Sir Joseph

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Burman, J. B.

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Butt, Sir Alfred

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Cassels, J. D.

Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hughes, Collingwood

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Stanley, Lord

Clarry, Reginald George

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Steel, Samuel Strang

Clayton, G. C.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sutcliffe, T.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Cope, Major William

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Lorimer, H. D.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lumley, L. R.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

McLean, Major A.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Waddington, R.

Dalkeith, Earl of

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Wells, S. R.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

March, S.

Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

Deans, Richard Storry

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Eden, Captain Anthony

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Wolmer, Viscount

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Ferguson, H.

Morrison- Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Major Colfox and Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury.—Major Colfox and Lieut.-Colonel Howard-Bury.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Question put accordingly, "That '£70,000' stand part of the Resolution."

The House divided: Ayes, 222; Noes, 146.

Division No. 60. ]]

AYES.

[ 7.3 p.m.

Ackroyd, T. R.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Ritson, J.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford)

Alden, Percy

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Robinson, W. E. (Burslem)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro?)

Hillary, A. E.

Romeril, H. G.

Alstead, R.

Hirst, G. H.

Rose, Frank H.

Ammon, Charles George

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Royce, William Stapleton

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Hodges, Frank

Royle, C.

Ayles, W. H.

Hogge, James Myles

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Baker, W. J.

Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Banton, G.

Hudson, J. H.

Scrymgeour, E.

Barclay, R. Noton

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Scurr, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Jewson, Dorothea

Sexton, James

Barnes, A.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Batey, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool,W.Derby)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Birkett, W. N.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Simpson, J. Hope

Black, J. W.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Blundell, F. N.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sitch, Charles H.

Bondfield, Margaret

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Smillie, Robert

Broad, F. A.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Kennedy, T.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Brunner, Sir J.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Buchanan, G.

Kenyon, Barnet

Snell, Harry

Buckle, J.

Kirkwood, D.

Spence, R.

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Lansbury, George

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Law, A.

Stamford, T. W.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Stephen, Campbell

Cape, Thomas

Lawson, John James

Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A. (Birm, W.)

Leach, W.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Charleton, H. C.

Lee, F.

Sullivan, J.

Clarke, A.

Loverseed, J. F.

Sutton, J. E.

Clayton, G. C.

Lowth, T.

Tattersail, J. L.

Climie, R.

Lunn, William

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Cluse, W. S.

McCrae, Sir George

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

M'Entee, V. L.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Compton, Joseph

Mackinder, W.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Comyns-Carr, A. S.

McLean, Major A.

Thurtle, E.

Cove, W. G.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Tillett, Benjamin

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Maden, H.

Toole, J.

Crittall, V. G.

Marley, James

Tout, W. J.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

Turner, Ben

Dickson, T.

Maxton, James

Turner-Samuels, M.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Viant, S. P.

Dukes, C.

Mills, J. E.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Egan, W. H.

Montague, Frederick

Warne, G. H.

Finney, V. H.

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Franklin, L. B.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Murray, Robert

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

Naylor, T. E.

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Weir, L. M.

Gillett, George M.

Nichol, Robert

Welsh, J. C.

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nixon, H.

Westwood, J.

Gosling, Harry

O'Grady, Captain James

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Oliver, George Harold

Whiteley, W.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Wignall, James

Greenall, T.

Paling, W.

Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B. (Kenningtn.)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Palmer, E. T.

Williams, Maj. A. S.(Kent, Sevenoaks)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Parry, Thomas Henry

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Groves, T.

Perry, S. F.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Grundy, T. W.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Potts, John S.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Purcell, A. A.

Windsor, Walter

Harbord, Arthur

Raffan, P. W.

Wintringham, Margaret

Hardie, George D.

Raffety, F. W.

Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Rathbone, Hugh H.

Wright, W.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Haycock, A. W.

Rendall, A.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Richards, R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.—Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.

Hemmerde, E. G.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Aske, Sir Robert William

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Atholl, Duchess of

Berry, Sir George

Briant, Frank

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Bonwick, A.

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

Pilkington, R. R.

Bullock, Captain M.

Hobhouse, A. L.

Pringle, W. M. R.

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Cassels, J. D.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Rea, W. Russell

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hood, Sir Joseph

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Remer, J. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Remnant, Sir James

Chapple, Dr. William A.

Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Clarry, Reginald George

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hughes, Collingwood

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Huntingfield, Lord

Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cope, Major William

Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Kedward, R. M.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Seely,Rt.Hn.Maj.-Gen. J. E. B. (I. of W.)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Darbishire, C. W.

Lorimer, H. D,

Stanley, Lord

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Lumley, L. R.

Starmer, Sir Charles

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Steel, Samuel Strang

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Deans, Richard Storry

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sutcliffe, T.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

March, S.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Ferguson, H.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Waddington, R.

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Galbraith. J. F. W.

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Wells, S. R.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Gretton, Colonel John

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wolmer, Viscount

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Pennefather, Sir John

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Hartington, Marquess of

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Esmond Harmsworth and Colonel Wheler.—Mr. Esmond Harmsworth and Colonel Wheler.

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Phillpson, Mabel

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Phillipps, Vivian

rose in his place, and claimed, "That the Main Question be now put."

Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

The House divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 141.

Division No. 61. ]]

AYES.

[ 7.12 p.m.

Ackroyd, T. R.

Burnle, Major J. (Bootle)

Franklin, L. B.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North)

Alden, Percy

Cape, Thomas

Gavan-Duffy, Thomas

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Gillett, George M.

Alstead, R.

Charleton, H. C.

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Ammon, Charles George

Clarke, A.

Gosling, Harry

Attlee, Major Clement R.

Clayton, G. C.

Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)

Ayles, W. H.

Climie, R.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Baker, W. J.

Cluse, W. S.

Greenall, T.

Banton, G.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Barclay, R. Noton

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Compton, Joseph

Groves, T.

Barnes, A.

Comyns-Carr, A. S.

Grundy, T. W.

Batey, Joseph

Cove, W. G.

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Crittall, V. G.

Harbord, Arthur

Birkett, W. N.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hardie, George D.

Black, J. W.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Harris, Percy A.

Blundell, F. N.

Dickie, Captain J. P.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Bondfield, Margaret

Dickson, T.

Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)

Broad, F. A.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby)

Dukes, C.

Hastings, Somerville (Reading)

Brunner, Sir J.

Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Haycock, A. W.

Buchanan, G.

Egan, W. H.

Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

Buckle, J.

Finney, V. H.

Hemmerde, E. G.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Stamford, T. W.

Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Stephen, Campbell

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Murray, Robert

Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)

Naylor, T. E.

Sturrock, J. Leng

Hillary, A. E.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Sullivan, J.

Hirst, G. H.

Nichol, Robert

Sutton, J. E.

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Nixon, H.

Tattersall, J. L.

Hodges, Frank

O'Grady, Captain James

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Hogge, James Myles

Oliver, George Harold

Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)

Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie

Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Hudson, J. H.

Paling, W.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)

Palmer, E. T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Jewson, Dorothea

Parry, Thomas Henry

Thurtle, E.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Perry, S. F.

Tillett, Benjamin

Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Toole, J.

Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)

Potts, John S.

Tout, W. J.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Purcell, A. A.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Raffan, P. W.

Turner, Ben

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Raffety, F. W.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford

Varley, Frank B.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)

Rathbone, Hugh R.

Viant, S. P.

Kay, Sir R. Newbald

Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Kennedy, T.

Rendall, A.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Richards, R.

Warne, G. H.

Kenyon, Barnet

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Kirkwood, D.

Ritson, J.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Lansbury, George

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Law, A.

Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford)

Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.

Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)

Romeril, H. G.

Weir, L. M.

Lawson, John James

Rose, Frank H.

Welsh, J. C.

Leach, W.

Royce, William Stapleton

Westwood, J.

Lee, F.

Royle, C.

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Loverseed, J. F.

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Whiteley, W.

Lowth, T.

Scurr, John

Wignall, James

Lunn, William

Sexton, James

Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B. (Kenningtn.)

McCrae, Sir George

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks)

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Shinwell, Emanuel

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

M'Entee, V. L.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Wilson, Sir Charles H.(Leeds, Centrl.)

Mackinder, W.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

McLean, Major A.

Simpson, J. Hope

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Windsor, Walter

Maden, H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Wintringham, Margaret

Marley, James

Smillie, Robert

Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.

Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Wright, W.

Maxton, James

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)

Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.

Snell, Harry

Mills, J. E.

Spence, R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.—Mr. Spoor and Mr. Allan Parkinson.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

Montague, Frederick

NOES.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hughes, Collingwood

Atholl, Duchess of

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Huntingfield, Lord

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Deans, Richard Storry

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Berry, Sir George

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

Bonwick, A.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Kedward, R. M.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Briscoe, Captain Richard George

Ferguson, H.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

FitzRoy, Captain Rt. Hon. Edward A.

Lorimer, H. D.

Bullock, Captain M.

Forestier-Walker, L

Lumley, L. R.

Burman, J. B.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Gates, Percy

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Butt, Sir Alfred

Gilbert, James Dariel

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Cassels, J. D.

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Mansel, Sir Courtenay

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Chapple, Dr. William A.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Harris, John (Hackney, North)

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Clarry, Reginald George

Hartington, Marquess of

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Harvey, C. M. B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne)

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C.(Honlton)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough)

Moulton, Major Fletcher

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hobhouse, A. L.

Nesbitt, Robert C.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hogbin, Henry Cairns

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Cope, Major William

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hood, Sir Joseph

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.)

Pennefather, Sir John

Darblshire, C. W.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Phillpson, Mabel

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Waddington, R.

Phillipps, Vivian

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Pilkington, R. R.

Seely, Rt. Hn. Maj.-Gen. J. E. B. (I. of W.)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Pringle, W. M. R.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Wells, S. R.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Spero, Dr. G. E.

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Rea, W. Russell

Stanley, Lord

Wise, Sir Fredric

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Starmer, Sir Charles

Wolmer, Viscount

Remer, J. R.

Steel, Samuel Strang

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Remnant, Sir James

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Sutcliffe, T.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Esmond Harmsworth and Colonel Wheler.—Mr. Esmond Harmsworth and Colonel Wheler.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Thornton, Maxwell R.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement

Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)

School Teachers (Superannuation) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is a small and simple one, and will not call for anything but a quite short speech from me. I must begin by recalling the situation to the memory of the House. In 1918, the new Superannuation Act for teachers was passed. In the atmosphere of liberality and generosity at the end of the War, the State undertook an enormous new obligation to the teachers. In the next few months this turned out to be much larger than had been anticipated, owing to the increase in the salary scales which were obtained by the teaching profession. At the same time, there was an era of restriction of expenditure, and the situation became difficult. The House will recollect how, after various vicissitudes, the Government of the day proposed and carried, in 1922, a compulsory 5 per cent. contribution deducted from the teachers' salaries in order to meet the expenses of their pensions. Under the temporary settlement arrived at, this contribution was made operative until the 31st May of this year.

At that time it was hoped that by the present date a permanent settlement would be arrived at. With the object of laying down the lines of a settlement, a Committee was appointed, of which Lord Emmott was Chairman, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wavertree (Mr. Rathbone) was also a member. I think no other Member of the House was included on the Committee, The Emmott Committee made wide-reaching recommendations, which involved, among other things, the continuance of the 5 per cent. contribution by the teachers, a 2½ per cent. contribution from the local authorities in proportion to all the salaries paid by each one of them, and a contribution from the State to meet the contribution by the local authorities. The Emmott Committee proposed also the establishment of a Central Superannuation Fund, under the management of the National Debt Commissioners, a large number of other drastic modifications in the methods of calculating benefit, and a variety of other important details. I must not be blamed if, finding this situation, I was unable at once to come to Parliament, the moment that we came to office, with a plan. The late Government had not had time to come to any decisive view on these propositions, and the new Government, which came into office at the beginning of this year, has not had sufficient time for the full consideration which is necessary of the many and very difficult points involved in the Emmott Committee's proposals. Even had I been able, in the short period during which we have been in office, to formulate a plan, under the present conditions of public business a measure which was bound to be complicated and difficult would have been practically impossible to cary through before the 31st May. I have, therefore, adopted the alternative to a very large piece of legislation, which we have not time to carry through before the 31st May, of a, Bill extending the present situation until the 1st April, 1926. The Government wish to make it quite clear that the interval given by this Bill will be utilised for the discussion and, I hope, the preparation, of a permanent settlement. That may be arrived at before the conclusion of the period named in the Bill, in which case the words in the present Bill, would become operative. At the end of the period, if not before, some settlement must be arrived at, and it is my own desire to see a permanent solution of some sort.

Apart from anything else, I found that there was no great likelihood that we should be able to reach a settlement quickly this year, for one very important party to any complete settlement, namely, the principal teachers' organisations, are indisposed to apply themselves to the consideration of a final settlement until the far more urgent and imperative question of the salaries of the teachers of England and Wales has been decided. After all, those who are chiefly concerned know best, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Mr. E. Wood), my predecessor, will, I think, support me in saying that the course we are adopting is in accordance with the wishes of most of the teachers. This, I think, is sufficient to explain why this temporary Measure is necessary. In view of the fact, also, that the present Act lapses on the 31st May, I have to ask the House to give me the Second Reading of this Bill before Easter. I see that there are one or two Motions on the Paper. I do not know entirely what they signify, but I rather imagine that my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) is anxious that new categories of teachers should be brought under the superannuation proposals. I am not in any sense closing my mind to the claims of those classes of teachers in whom I know my right hon. Friend is interested, and whenever we come, within the next two years, to devise our permanent settlement, I will approach the question of preparatory and private schools, and other sets of teachers of that kind, with a very open mind, and I hope something may be done in many directions; but it is impossible for me to adopt any piecemeal legislation.

One of two things has to be done. Either the Act must continue as it is, or a complete settlement must be obtained. We cannot begin remedying details, for, if we did, there would be no end; and there is no time to devise a complete scheme now. My reply is very much the same to my hon. Friend the Member for Wavertree. He is anxious that we should fund the contributions of the teachers. I have no doubt that when we come to a final settlement the question of funding, as recommended by the Emmott Committee, will be one of the most important considerations, but again I say that we cannot adopt the Emmott Report piecemeal. The funding proposals depended upon there being contributions, not only from the teachers, but also from the local authorities and from the State. I have only to say, to those who would have me bring in a complete and larger scheme, that there is no semblance of agreement on the part of the local authorities to that proposal at present, and, therefore, anything like rapid legislation on that head is impossible. For that reason, if for no other, I think that this is an untimely moment for the funding proposal. Accordingly, I invite the House to accept this temporary proposal. From the financial point of view, the Chancellor of the Exchequer naturally regards it as a vital necessity. The sum involved will be something like £2,300,000 this year. I canot help thinking the House will be wise to accept this temporary proposal. It closes no door, it leaves the whole matter open, and I do not seriously think anyone could maintain to-day that a matter in many respects so controversial, and, in a great many respects, so complicated, could possibly have been carried out in its entirety as a new Measure in the very short time at my disposal. I therefore invite the House to accept the temporary Measure which 1 now move.

I suppose there will probably be very little disagreement with the conclusion at which the right hon. Gentleman, and I must also admit I myself, while I was still in office, had arrived as to the necessity of inviting the sanction of the House to a temporary Act of this character. He reminded us that the history of this matter had been rather a chequered one. The present scale of teachers' salaries was fixed in 1921 for a period of four years. That was superimposed upon a teachers' pension system which had been current since 1918, and when the salary agreement was made, there was no expectation that from those salaries a levy would be made for the cost of superannuation. Those who were Members of the House then will recall that trouble to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. It is true that the idea when that temporary Act was first passed was that by the end of four years there would have been adequate time to prepare, consider, introduce and pass a permanent scheme. I want to emphasise, if any emphasis be needed after what the right hon. Gentleman has said, the supreme importance that attaches to the question of a pension scheme. I believe in all the work that the right hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher) was able to effect in the cause of education; all who care for education will agree that, among the most valuable part of it was the work he was able to render in the cause of settling the pensions of teachers on a secure and reasonably satisfactory basis, because it was obvious that, without such a satisfactory scheme, the persons concerned must be the victims of ordinary day to day anxiety. That anxiety breeds dissatisfaction and unrest, and a person to whose mind those influences are operating is not the right person to mould the character of the young generation. I think the House will wish to be very jealous of its procedure in this matter from the point of view of keeping strict faith with the teachers in order to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding such as it fell into a few years ago. I am able to say, perhaps better than anyone else in the House, that the right hon. Gentleman is speaking what I know to be true when he says, whatever may be the merits or demerits of the proposal to which he invites our sanction, that at least the proposal is one that he can advance with the assurance that it is agreeable to the great body of those engaged in the teaching profession.

I come now to the more practical question as to whether this is or is not a wise and a necessary course of action for the House to take. It is quite evident that the replacement of existing temporary legislation by a permanent Act is bound to be a business of great and far-reaching importance to the three interests concerned. So far I think the right hon. Gentleman will carry everyone with him. It also concerns a great many interests which are not involved in that original triple partnership. It may concern those interests for which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) can speak, of private schools, and a great many others in various directions. It would be quite impossible to invite the House of Commons to consider a permanent scheme of that sort that is going to bind the teaching profession, the local authorities and the taxpayers of the country in permanent bonds in advance of the fullest opportunity of detailed consideration by the interests affected outside the House. It would be, in my judgment, impossible to expect to get a sound scheme through on the only lines on which I think it can be got through, by agreement of all those principally affected—taxpayers, ratepayers and teachers—without the opportunity of ample examination of what was proposed. It so happens that there has not been, up to now, that fullness of opportunity that I think the situation demands. The uncertainty that followed the election as to whether hon. Members opposite, or the party with which I am associated, or the party below the Gangway might be in charge of these responsible matters resulted in the reluctance of the great educational interests to apply their minds to these matters until they knew where they were.

It is also true—and here I think the right hon. Gentleman touched a, point that is really fundamental to the consideration of this question—that the situation has been greatly complicated by the coincidence of this question with the discussion on the question of the new salary agreement. Let me emphasise what the right hon. Gentleman said in that regard. Lord Emmott's Committee, with regard to which I thought the right hon. Gentleman was rather sparing of information as to the present view of the Government, made a fundamental suggestion respecting a contribution of 2½ per cent, from local education authorities. There is a great deal to be said for and against that proposal, and I certainly am not going, nor is this the time, to pronounce positively upon it. Indeed, I think I should be out of order were I to attempt to do so. The arguments for the proposal are very lucidly and forcibly stated in Lord Emmott's Report. The main argument, as I suppose, against the proposal is that it is not likely that the local education authorities will be very willing to accept the new and onerous burden of the 2½ per cent, levy, of which I am advised the average result would represent something like a rate of 2½d. in the £, which would mean, of course, a considerably higher rate in some cases, for a service that is day by day, more and more, coming to be regarded as a national service, and at a moment when the whole question of the relations between local and national expenditure is under review by a Committee whose Report we are still awaiting. I do not say whether they ought to accept it or not. All I say is that it is unlikely that they would accept it at this particular moment without an opportunity for a great deal more discussion and consideration than they have yet had. In any case, I think it is very unlikely that the right hon. Gentleman would induce them to accept it until they know where they stand with regard to salaries. So far then, I think, the right hon. Gentleman's argument in that regard is sound. But even when agreement has been reached, if it can be reached outside, the stage will follow of legislation in this House, and any Bill that is going to deal with these matters is, I am afraid, going to be a very technical and complicated and very difficult Bill for the House to consider and pass, and it will need time. It is undeniable that at present we are working under a very strict limitation of time. Unless the House were able to pass legislation by the end of May it would forfeit the right to levy the contributions, which would, I think, dislocate the right hon. Gentleman's Estimates to something fairly close on £2,000,000.

That, therefore, is the consideration, and I suggest that what we are concerned about at present is the best way of meeting an emergency created by difficulty of time in which we wish, while safeguarding full consideration of the permanent solution, to save the immediate interests of people and local authorities and also of the taxpayer. I do not therefore discuss at any length the questions of policy which are raised. It is true that when the Report comes to be discussed, the principle bone of contention will be whether or not it is in the interests of the taxpayer that the fund recommended by Lord Emmott's Committee should or should not be created. If there is one fact that emerges very clearly from the Report it is this: that the assistance to be derived by the taxpayer from the process of funding will be very slender in the near future, and that he will have to wait a very long time for the relief that he may ultimately get in 40 or 50 years. Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman or the Parliamentary Secretary in reply will be able to add something to the extremely guarded observations made by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the general questions of policy that are linked up with this proposal, and that he will be able to assure the House that he is not going to allow himself to be rushed by the Treasury or by anybody else into an acceptance of a scheme that may be good or may be bad, but a scheme which, on every hand, demands the fullest examination and consideration before we as taxpayers are committed to it.

I speak with respect, as I am bound to do, of the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wavertree (Mr. Rathbone), which provides1 that tions. I would point out that if such were their deeire, it would be not less difficult for the right hon. Gentleman, as the leader of a new financial revolution, to raid any fund that might by any funding process be created. Therefore, I suggest that that analogy need not of itself carry us to the conclusion as to the desirability of funding.

I have been told, and I dare say we shall hear in this Debate, that there is some strong desire expressed on the part of Scottish Members, and those who speak for Scotland, to press for an immediate adoption of the Emmott Report and legislation on those lines. We have seen instances in this House of the Government being trailed at the chariot wheels of Scotland, not always with the happiest results, if I may remind my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik), and I cannot resist the temptation, in spite of the feeling that I have not the unanimous support of my right hon. Friend behind me, to congratulate the Government on this occasion on having been able to refrain from following Scotland, and to reserve, to themselves the opportunity to gain time so as to let England have an opinion as to what is the wisest and best course for England in this matter to adopt in its own interests.

For these reasons, and also because I have little doubt that had I been in the right hon. Gentleman's position I should have found myself compelled to introduce a similar Bill to this, I am bound to conclude by saying that, in inviting Parliament to give sanction to a temporary Measure of this kind which, while safeguarding different interests during a transitional time, is designed to secure to Parliament an opportunity of that full consideration which at the present moment the exigencies of time forbid, the right hon. Gentleman has acted wisely, and I hope he will secure the Second Reading of the Bill.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."

I must begin with an apology, as a Scottish Member, for interfering in what is apparently an English Measure. I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken referred to Scotland, and therefore gave me a right to speak on this Bill.. The fact of my intervention as a Member from north of the Tweed requires some explanation. Although this is a Bill technically which deals only with England and Wales, in reality it is the embodiment of a Government policy which applies to Scotland equally. What is the situation? We have been told in an answer from the Secretary for Scotland that we are to have a Bill similar to this to deal with Scotland. That does not take us any further. By the time that Bill is brought in, it will be too late for effective speech or action to be taken in this House. To prove that assertion we have only to look at what happened in 1922.

An English Bill was introduced in 1922, and it had rather a troublous passage before it got a Second Reading. The Government was defeated on a matter arising thereon and had to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. There was a suspicion, and almost a well-grounded belief, that the Bill of 1922 constituted a breach of an explicit agreement with the teachers of England. The Acland Committee which was appointed came to a very narrow decision. They found by four votes to three that there was no such agreement as had been mentioned. The Second Reading of the Bill was carried only after the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined Universities (Mr. Herbert Fisher), who was then President of the Board of Education, had given an undertaking that it would be in operation for only two years and that that period of two years would be utilised by his Department in finding out what was the best permanent scheme that could be set up.

The Bill was sent upstairs and some small Amendments were adopted there and then and the Scottish Bill which had been held up was put down for Second Reading. For almost the first time it appeared as the first Order on the Paper, a most unusual thing as regards' a Scottish measure. When Scottish Members, a little elated, came down to the House that afternoon the then Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), announced that there had been a change of programme, that the Report stage and Third Reading of the English Bill would be taken first and that the Scottish Bill would be taken afterwards. The Leader of the House was in rather a militant mood; at least, he indulged in military metaphor. He said that an arrangement had been come to in order that the main fight could take place on the English Bill. The main fight did take place on that Bill. The battle was lost and won, and then 90 per cent, of the Members—to follow up the military metaphor—trooped out into the Lobby and left the Scottish remnant to have a little sham fight for the benefit of the Gallery. That will happen in regard to this Measure if we do not speak now.

When our Bill went upstairs to Committee, the Minister in charge found himself in the position simply of saying, "Nothing doing." He could neither accept a provision which was not in the English Bill, nor delete one which was in the English Bill, with the result that the Members for Scotland had really no voice, and nothing was done with regard to the matter. Putting these matters aside, and coming to the Bill itself, I cannot say that the speech of the President of the Board of Education has cleared up matters or given us any sort of idea of what is likely to happen. His statement was not only guarded; indeed that is a superlative term to apply to it, because he told us nothing, or as little as he possibly could. His statement is this, that owing to certain circumstances the Government are compelled to continue the Act for the next two years. To that proposal I take strong objection. To continue the Act for two years appears to many of us to be quite unnecessary.

8.0 P.M.

The Emmott Report has been referred to, and I would pay a tribute to the work done by the members of that Committee. They gave us one of the most valuable reports ever issued by any Committee dealing with any subject. The Report has laid down not only the general principles which must govern any superannuation scheme, but it has gone into a great wealth of detail dealing with almost every point that can conceivably arise in the formulating of a scheme. We hold that the Government—although we do not blame them for not coming forward now with a scheme—have generously ample time between now and the 31st March next to make a scheme which would meet all requirements. Therefore, this Amendment is justified, not only from the Scottish point of view but from the point of view of many English Members and of others concerned with English education and we should get from the Government a pledge that they will do what they can in the coming year to get this put into a satisfactory position. If at the end of the year they say they have honestly tried but have not succeeded, then the House will be generous enough to allow them a further period. But just now the teaching profession is in a state of uncertainty. They do not know where they are, and they do not know how long they are to be in this position. The right hon. Gentleman talks, perhaps intelligently enough about the Government's action two years hence, but there may be many vicissitudes in government if things go on as they have gone in the past two years, and possibly we shall have another Government coming forward and saying," We have only been three months in office; our predecessors have left us no scheme to go on with, and we will continue this arrangement for a further three years." Between now and next March there is ample time to do all that is required. If you wait until every interest is conciliated, you must wait until the Greek Kalends or even longer. I am all for conciliation and co-operation, but it will not do to put the thing off from day to day and year to year simply because one, possibly a small interest, is disaffected in regard to it.

The second point to which I take objection is that the Bill does not deal in any way with the contributions paid by the teachers except by continuing them as an accretion to the Treasury. I quite agree with the motive behind the Amendment put down by the hon. Member for Wavertree (Mr. Rathbone). The contributions from England and Scotland from the teachers amount roughly to £3,000,000 a year, and for the four years contemplated under the extension of this Act this means something like from £10,000,000 to £12,000,000 which would require to be made good sometime in the future. The Government are spending all the assets to meet these liabilities in the future. I do not go further into that, because the hon. Member for Wavertree will deal with it sufficiently.

There is a third point, and it is a matter to which I hope the House will give very careful consideration. This is not a matter which concerns Scotland, but it really affects the honour of England. It deals with a number of cases which Members of this House would not allow to continue if they knew that they existed. If this Act be continued for the period contemplated, knowing that Governments are very human, and that if they have two years to do a thing they are not likely to do it in less, it means that the cases of hardship to which I am going to refer will be continued. We hear a great deal about reciprocity as regards the teaching profession in England and Scotland. The value of reciprocity is emphasised in the Emmott Committee's Report. It has been emphasised in this House before now, and I find in conversation with hon. Members that they are under the impression that complete reciprocity exists in regard to the transference of teachers from Scotland to England and vice versa. That is not the case. I will give one or two actual cases. Three of them I have put before the Board of Education within the last month, and have got their replies. In 1881, a lady teacher took service under a school board in England. She served for 10 years? less nine days, these nine days being school holidays. She reached the age of retirement in Scotland, and received her retiring allowance there, and then she wrote to the Board of Education asking that she should get something for what she considered to be 10 years' service in England. The Board of Education replied that, seeing she was not in service between the 1st and 10th of January, these being nine days during which the school was on holiday, she was ineligible for any grant under the Education Act of 1918. [HON. MEMBERS:" Shame!"] A case of that sort will go on if this Bill is continued, and if the new scheme is not brought in, unless the English Board of Education can put an Amendment into their Act of 1918.

Then there is another case. We have a woman who has given very considerable service in England. She then transferred to Scotland and gave service there for a number of years. She broke down in health and was granted an allowance by the Scottish Education Department according to its schemes. She wrote to the English Board of Education asking that that allowance should be supplemented in view of her many years of service in England. The reply she got was that the Board could not do it under the Act, because she had not been in service in England within six months of the time of her breakdown. What happens in the converse case where teachers move from Scotland to England? If the first teacher had gone from Scotland to England with less then 10 years' service, with one or two or three years' service only, and qualified for a pension in England at the retiring age, the Scottish Education Department would have paid for her years' service in Scotland, no matter how few. In the second case, bad the woman teacher or any other teacher broken down in England after giving service in Scotland, the Scottish Education Department would have paid for the service in Scotland, though she had been 20 years out of Scotland. Scotland is blamed for looking closely after the pennies, and she possibly does, but she very often spends them wisely. Under the Education Act of 1918, a pension of a lump sum is reckoned on the average of the last five years of salary. See how that works.

Can the hon. Member show me how the Act of 1918 is affected by this Bill to continue the teachers' contribution? I am unable to see that at present. It is not clear to me that we can to-day discuss the demerits of the Act of 1918.

I am asking the Board of Education to do everything they can to get a new scheme brought in as soon as possible, because, until they have brought in a new scheme, the hardships under the present scheme are bound to continue. The new scheme we are asking for would wipe out these hardships to which I am referring.

I think it is in order to a limited extent to discuss the point, but we must not have a general discussion on the Act of 1918.

I quite agree. I am pointing out the necessity of having introduced at the earliest moment a scheme which will give reciprocity between the teaching profession in Scotland and England, and I think I have said enough to show, at any rate, that there is very great hardship with regard to certain classes of teachers, and that these hardships are bound to continue unless we get a new scheme to remove them. In conclusion, I would simply say that no one expects that the new Government will be able to deal with this matter so as to have a scheme in operation by the 1st June, by which time this Act lapses; but we do feel that to give a year to the Government is sufficient for the purpose we have in view. I would point out To the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Education and to the Under-Secretary and others that when the Bill of 1922 was under discussion, there was very fierce and very strong opposition, and well justified opposition, from the members of the party which is now the Government party. Those who took the most active part at that time are now distinguished Members of the Government, or hold other Ministerial offices. I do not stress that in the least, but it is not without its significance. We had hoped that this Government would give us some sort of idea what it meant, whether it saw its way to drop that Act altogether, and revert to the old status of 1918 and have a non-contributory scheme, or whether it had some other scheme. I think we are entitled to know. It is this carrying on of this Act which gives no hope to teachers who are now in a state of uncertainty, and anyone who has had anything to do with schools knows that the work is nerve-racking enough without this uncertainty, as to what the future is to hold, superimposed upon it.

Therefore, recognising to the full the great ability and the great knowledge and the great sympathy which the President brings to the duties of his high office, and recognising also the great qualities of our Scottish Secretary, of whom we are all proud as an example of the perfervidium ingenium Scotorum I suggest that the two right hon. Gentlemen should get together and confer upon what is to be done in this matter. For those reasons, I now hope that we will get, before the discussion closes, some more guidance and some more idea of what is in the mind of the Government.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so in no hostile spirit to the principle that there should be a contributory scheme of pensions, but on the ground that in voting for this Bill one is voting to perpetuate a scheme which is not only hurtful and unjust to a very large number of individuals, but is also noxious to the cause of education generally. The Board of Education have never given a proper trial to the contributory scheme. Though a contributory scheme is in existence at present they have never given a real trial to it and have never put it on a proper basis. In 1908 I had the honour to introduce a deputation to the Board of Education. We pressed very strongly for the contributory scheme, and the highest that we ever asked for was pound for pound, the teacher putting down the same amount as the authority. That was opposed by the Board of Education. At last, I remember, after many deputations which ended by our being told that the Treasury would never hear of such a thing, we went straight to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at that time was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), and he expressed the opinion that it was a proper and desirable scheme and the Board of Education was practically forced to set up a Committee dealing with it.

That Committee took some time to consider the matter and finally made a report at the beginning of 1914 that there should be a contributory pension scheme, but when the War came on nothing could be done. Then in 1918, without a single word of discussion in this House, without the House being informed of what was going to be done, after we came back from vacation, this extraordinary scheme was put forward on a non-contributory basis involving the consequence that many teachers were excluded except those who were in receipt of Government grants. A more pernicious scheme is hardly imaginable. It makes a cleavage throughout the teaching profession, and is bad for independent schools as well as Government-aided schools. My right hon. Friend who is present fought most nobly against the proposal in 1918, with others of us, and the result was that we got a certain number of independent schools admitted to the scheme, but they were admitted under conditions which I might almost call degrading. I think that they had to state that they had no means of their own to support a pensions scheme for their masters, and also they had to agree to allot so many free places, and there were certain obligations to allow two members of the governing body of particular schools to be appointed. When we got up to speak we were told," You must not oppose this scheme, because the Government say that if there is any obstruction they will drop it, and it will be a great loss to the teaching profession." We were told that in the lobby by members of the Teachers' Association. I believed that the Government were not likely to drop it merely because Amendments were moved from this side of the House, but the discussion was inadequate, and the Bill was bad both educationally and financially.

The result was, that we had this Committee in 1922, whereby we had to go back to the contributory scheme, but the contributory scheme, still excluded the bulk of the teachers in all independent schools and Lord Emmott's Committee was set up. I did not know anything about its deliberations until its Report was issued, but I have every admiration for the way in which it discharged its task. I have a strong impression that the same Board of Education, who rejected the contributory scheme for independent schools, which was the principal reason why it was kept back until 1914, so that the matter got no further until the Bill was brought in in 1918, means to pay no attention to the Emmott Report. I want a definite statement that the Government propose that effect shall be given to that Report. It recommends various things, among others the inclusion of independent schools. Educationally and financially it is sound, and it is fair to the independent schools. The interchangeability of teachers is vital, both to the State-aided and the independent schools. Some of the independent schools, the richer ones, are prepared to pay the whole of the expenses of the inclusion of the teachers in this scheme so that it will not cost the Government a penny, but there will then be the advantage that the teachers in efficient schools shall be able to come in under the system of pensions, and then the interchangeability of teachers will operate without difficulty.

Now, if you want to get a science master from a grant-aided school for an independent school, he knows that he will forfeit his pension. In the same way, leaving an independent school and going to a grant-aided school, he knows that he is not getting the advantage which was given to those who were there before him. That either has the effect of squeezing out the independent schools altogether, because you cannot get the interchangeability of masters which they require, and in that case there is a huge charge cast upon the State, because the Government has to supply the place of those schools with State-aided schools, or, on the other hand, these schools are heavily handicapped by this lack of interchangeability. To-day we have this Bill, and we are asked to give the Government another two years of this system which is doing great harm at present to the cause of education as well as to individuals. The Board of Education have had this question before them ever since 1908, and they have had the finding of the Emmott Committee for some months, and while we are having such amusements as fighting elections away from this House, the officials of the Board of Education, who were no longer harried by the questions of objectionable Members like myself in the House, have had lots of time in their offices to study the question, and I submit that they ought to tell us a little more than we are told to-night.

There is another place into which the Government can introduce Measures such as this, where we might learn the intentions of the Government. We have not been told in a single point what are the Government views and intentions upon the Emmott Report. We are told," You could not expect us to give effect to it now. You must wait a couple of years. Even then you may have to wait a little longer, until you have settled the whole matter of the Burnham scale of salaries, which is a very difficult and burning question." That is not right. You have to deal with this pension question, because it involves a large number of teachers who are not affected by the Burnham scale in any way at all. You must take a statesmanlike view of the matter, as did Lord Emmott's Committee, namely, that the unit of the pension scheme should be the teacher in the efficient school. That ought to be pressed home.

I have also to make an apology, as the representative of a Scottish constituency, for intervening in a discussion of what, on the surface, is a purely English Measure. But as we found out last Session, and as on this particular subject we have found out during the last four or five years, the whole question of principle, and even the application of principles, have been settled in an English Bill, and very little alteration has been possible in connection with a Scottish Measure. One hon. Member has said that we have not had any experience of a contributory scheme. I certainly agree with that criticism as far as the present scheme is concerned, because it is not a contributory scheme at all; it is merely a measure proposed by the Geddes Committee for getting two or three millions out of the teachers' pockets and into the pockets of the Treasury. To be quite candid, it is not a scheme; it is only a cut in teachers' salaries. The scheme of benefits that exists was put into force under the 1918–19 Acts. In Scotland we have had some experience of contributory schemes, and of the relationship under a contributory scheme between the local authority, the individual concerned, and the State.

Under our earliest provision, the local authority was primarily responsible for what was called the retiring allowance. It was quite an unsatisfactory method of solving the difficulty, and as early as 1898 a contributory scheme as evolved. It is a scheme which still exists, because, curiously enough, these funded schemes go on existing in spite of the later superstructure built on them. If I should be rejected by my constituents and return to teaching, and if I should reach the age of 65, under one of these schemes I have a right to claim about £l Is. Ll½d. per annum as my part of a former contributory scheme, to which I paid about two years' contributions. I have information of one lady who has retired quite recently. She claimed about £4 14s. from one of these early contributory schemes. What happened with the northern scheme was that the 1912 Act wiped out the 1898 Act and introduced a contributory scheme under which the local authority, the teacher and the State each paid a proportion. This is my reason for intervening here. When the 1918 English Act came along the Scottish Act was framed in consonance with it, with the result that the 1912 Scottish scheme was wiped out of existence.

I would call the hon. Members attention to the fact that the Bill under discussion deals with the extended period during which the contributions of the school teachers are to be paid.

I am replying to some of the points that have been raised. When the Debate was opened a former Minister of Education stated that Scotland had been left upon this matter, and he congratulated the present Minister for having thrown Scotland overboard and having decided to give a strong English lead. Subsequent speakers have referred to all of these points. It is rather late in the Debate now to go back on that.

On this Bill the hon. Member cannot discuss the provisions of other Acts of Parliament.

I bow to your ruling, of course, but I wish to assert that we have had some experience of all the types of schemes. We have at present a so-called contributory scheme. That is a point which is referred to in this Bill and is the real reason behind this Bill. Under the 1922 Act, the local authority escaped entirely from any contribution. If that were allowed to lapse we would come back to the position of the main scheme of the 1918 Act; we would revert to the 1918 Act, which had some semblance of a general policy in it, which laid out a scheme of benefits and placed the onus on the Treasury of meeting those benefits. It was only during a campaign of extreme economy that such a policy was reversed. It is not a contributory scheme that we are continuing under this short Bill; it is a scheme simply for a 5 per cent, cut in salaries; it is that and nothing more. The underlying scheme, non-contributory as far as local authorities and teachers are concerned, is a scheme that can well stand on its own merits. When one considers the history of these schemes, the chopping and changing that have taken place, we find that we have been paid back contributions and accounts stretching over 10 and 12 years in some cases, in order to break up one scheme. A noncontributory scheme was adopted, and, until some fundamental change is made, I agree that there is some considerable backing for the Emmott Report. It puts forward suggestions for contributions from three sources. It is a comprehensive scheme. The only other comprehensive scheme is the one underlying and contained in the Superannuation Act of 1918. The best method of getting to a general solution would be to allow the 1922 Act to lapse altogether.

May I, in the first place, make a personal apology to the House for having badly drawn the Amendment which has been ruled out of order, and may I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for enabling me to say a word or two on the Amendment which is being discussed, that the Bill be read six months hence. While I concur with much of what has fallen from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) I do not wish to follow him in his desire to see this Bill postponed, because I think that the contributory scheme is the right scheme, but I demur to what has fallen from the President of the Board of Education and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Mrs. E. Wood) that we should not deal with the Emmott Report piecemeal. I as a rule entirely object to piecemeal legislation. At the same time there may be occasions when it is inevitable. I cannot see that there is any real difficulty in the way of the proposal that the teachers' contributions, which by the beginning of June would amount to £4,500,000 in accordance with what the President of the Board of Education has already told the House, and which will probably amount to £9,000,000, by April, 1926, should be funded. All I should like to see by way of Amendment to this Bill, is the inclusion of a provision that these contributions should be funded. It will be remembered that Section 6 of the 1918 Act begins by saying: "Nothing in this Act shall give any person an absolute right" etc. I claim that by the 1922 Act an element of contract has been introduced, and as it is quite impossible to bring in a Bill based on the Emmott Committee Report or any other legislation the Government may think fit on the subject this year. I ask the House to see that the contributions of eachers are preserved.

My point will be made perfectly clear by reference to one of the Clauses in the Emmott Committee Report. I refer to Clause 51, which states that the Committee feel that the creation of a fund is essential to the security of the various contributing bodies, and that if such a precaution is not taken, no one will have any guarantee that he is not to be called upon to pay more than his due. The Report of the Emmott Committee suggests contributions from the local authorities as well as from, the teachers, and no doubt the local authorities would also desire that their contributions should not be used for grants-in-aid of general expenditure. Apart from the fact that the administration is simpler, the cost to the State would be less for a limited number of years, and I suppose that is the reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want to see any alteration in the present arrangement, because these contributions from the teacher have helped to create a surplus in the last two years, and will help to meet expenditure for the next two years; but surely that is not an argument which it would be very wise to pursue. I do not wish to suggest that this Government or the next Government, or the next Government but one, is going to repudiate its obligations, but it is asking a little too much for young teachers who are now contributing, to leave their funds at the mercy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when it is quite possible they will not be claimants under the pension scheme for 30 or 40 years. What may happen in 30 or 40 years no one can tell. We have already had surprises in one or two directions as regards retrospective action, and Members of this House will recollect that it is only a short time ago since we tried to pass a Measure dealing with a financial decision in another place because we thought it was a bad decision. I need not stress that point and I need not go beyond the 1918 Act itself to illustrate it. That Act provided for a noncontributory scheme, but the 1922 Act provided that the teachers were to bear a share of the cost. That in itself was rather a shock, and what was done four short years after the introduction of the Fisher Act might well be done in this case 20 or 30 years hence. If the country felt itself unable for any reason to carry out its undertakings to the full, it might, without actual repudiation, suggest that pensions should be very much reduced, and teachers who have paid 5 per cent, for a long time might really be paying the whole of their pension.

Whatever happens to the Emmott Committee Report in this respect, I think that the House will insist that a teacher who contributes 5 per cent, and who, for some reason, decides to drop his profession before becoming entitled to a pension ought to be repaid with or without interest, and I imagine the Board of Education would agree that it is right and proper. Again, if a, teacher dies shortly after appointment and the death allowance is not equal to the amount that teacher has contributed, I think this House will insist that the difference between the contribution of the teacher and the amount which is paid as death gratuity should be made up. All I am anxious to do is to preserve the teachers' contributions, and it does not seem very difficult to amend the Bill in such a way that the contributions shall be funded for the next two years. We are not asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do anything very difficult. He has a large surplus which is not entirely a national surplus but is partly made up of the contributions of the teachers. We are trustees for those teachers and the money does not belong to the nation but to the teachers. While not agreeing to the postponement of this Bill for six months as I am quite satisfied it is impossible to bring in any legislation based on the report or any big legislation this year, and I think it quite possible that the President of the Board of Education is right in saying it may be two years before it can be brought before the House—still I do not think that is any reason why the teachers' contributions should not, in the meantime, be safeguarded.

I cannot help thinking, from the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, that he has put the case, solely from the point of view of the teachers, in showing that these contributions should be safeguarded in every possible way, but we must also consider the cost of these pensions to the general public, a point which the hon. Member seemed to overlook. I gather that every day during which these pensions are not put on a proper basis, whether by carrying out the Emmott Report or in some other way, means an increased cost to the State, and while, no doubt, much of what the hon. Member has said may be quite right, I am inclined to think that the charge on the State for this service may be even greater than any possible loss which may accrue to the teacher. I listened to the speech of the President with considerable attention, and he said that it had been impossible, in the short time since the Government had been in office, to come to a general agreement as to the Emmott Report. I under stood him to say that he had not come to an agreement with the National Union of Teachers, but he appeared to look upon an agreement with that union as absolutely essential to any successful pension scheme. I took his words down, and he said," Those chiefly concerned know best," which, I resume, referred to the leaders of the National Union of Teachers. They may know best what concerns their own interest, but—

The State and the local authorities also pay, so that there are two other parties, as well as the National Union of Teachers, to any satisfactory solution of this problem. Again, the President of the Board of Education said he had not achieved agreement with the local authorities, but if he is going to put off placing this whole pension scheme on a satisfactory basis until he has secured agreement among all the interests concerned, I think he will require a longer time than some date in April, 1926. At the present moment the contributions which are being paid by members of the teaching profession are not going into any permanent fund where they can be used, but are employed as an Appropriation-in-Aid, and I submit that a more real effort should be made to procure an agreement at as early a date as possible, in order that the State may not suffer through having to contribute for back services, which the Emmott Committee considers the State should shoulder, and, I think, probably the majority of people would agree with that contention. Before this Debate closes, it would be of interest to the House, and, I should think, to the teaching profession as well, if the right hon. Gentleman could give us a little more information as to how far he has gone with the representatives of the National Union of Teachers and with the local authorities in regard to an agreement. Until we have information on these two points, I think we should delay the Second Reading of this Bill.

I could not help feeling that the speech of the President of the Board of Education was, perhaps, a little inadequate. We are dealing with a legacy of past mistakes. It is not a legacy inherited from the last Government, but a legacy which the last Government, in common with the present Government, inherited from previous years, but the mistakes which gave rise to that legacy are not mistakes which one wishes to lay to the door of anybody in particular We tried to establish a teachers' superannuation scheme on a noncontributory basis, but we—the Government and this House—failed absolutely to do it. In that respect, the Superannuation Act of 1918 is like a number of Acts, which I should not be in order in discussing in detail, spreading over the last 20 years or so, which have given us an inheritance in insurance and pension matters of inadequate, rather ill-considered legislation which has now to be thoroughly and fundamentally remade. If we are going to go on with purely temporary Measures, tiding over the gap until we have time to re-make that legislation, we should, I think, have some idea as to the lines on which the re-making is going to proceed; and, of course, we do not really know from the speech of the President of the Board of Education whether he is even prima facie in favour of a contributory or a noncontributory scheme of super annuation.

He has the Report of the Emmott Committee, strongly in favour of a contributory scheme, and he has behind him various Members, like the hon. Member for East Renfrew (Mr. Nichol), who are on the whole very much opposed to a contributory scheme. In which direction is he going? I think that while it is perfectly true that the last Government, if it had continued in office, would have had to introduce a temporary Bill of this kind, it would have been prepared to state, at any rate in principle, its attitude as to the respective merits of a contributory and a noncontributory scheme—in principle, without going into the details of the Emmott Report. What is the attitude of the present Government to that question? I ask this, not from any factious desire to try and commit hon. and right hon. Members on the Treasury Bench, but because it has a very real bearing on this Bill. This Bill is the bridge between a non-contributory and a contributory scheme, but if. after the contributory scheme, so called, at a 5 per cent. levy, which, I agree, is very little else than a mere cut on teachers' salaries—

No, it is not. It is purely opportunist legislation of the worst kind, but if this opportunist legislation is going to be merely a bridge between a non-contributory scheme in the past and another non-contributory scheme in the future, it is going to be excessively unfair to a certain number of teachers in the present. Unless you are prepared to regard this scheme as a bridge to a. contributory scheme, unless the teachers of the future are going to continue to contribute, over a long term of years, something in the neighbourhood of 5 per cent, of their salaries towards their superannuation, then this legislation is utterly indefensible. Therefore, while we do not, on this side of the House, at all complain of the Government bringing in this Bill, we do think we should ask whether they have made up their minds, at any rate, that in principle a contributory scheme is the right kind of scheme to introduce. I have personally—I am not speaking for anybody else—no sort of doubt that in this as in other matters a contributory scheme is the only possible one, and that is why I, with a clear conscience, could have introduced such a Bill as this.

I should like to support what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ton bridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay) said with reference to the remark that the teachers, after all, were the persons chiefly concerned, and they ought to know. Of course, there are other questions than that. Now, for the first time, this year the State is going to pay in superannuation considerably more than the teachers' contribution. As I understand, the teachers' contribution this year is estimated at £2,335,000, and the superannuation bill against that is estimated at £3,200,000. That is the amount the Exchequer is going to bear, and the local authorities are not going to bear any of it, as they would have borne it under the Emmott scheme. The teachers are not the judges whether these things are better borne wholly by the taxes, or partly by taxes and partly by rates. Again, the teachers are not the judges, really, as to whether we should prolong for two years the period during which, without the Emmott scheme, the State have to bear the whole burden. In these respects, the teachers are not really the judges, and I feel we should be assured that, in committing ourselves in these ways, we are, at any rate, going in some definite direction, and not merely marking time, and considering and promising, as all Governments are only too apt to do, that the matter will receive their best consideration. One final word, because I am not quite sure whether my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) raised this point or not. Is the Treasury now considering, in accordance with the Emmott Report, the applications from those non-grant-aided schools for inclusion under the 1918 Act, which applications have been held up pending the Report of the Emmott Committee? The Emmott Committee recommended that those applications should be immediately considered, and I should like to ask whether that is being done.

9.0 P.M.

I think the House will now be prepared to bring this discussion to a close. I fully recognise the fairness with which hon. Members have discussed the subject, and I think, in the main, there are one or two questions only arising from the discussion which require attention. I think it is perfectly plain from the whole of this discussion that there is no sort of controversy whatsoever as to whether there should or should not tie arrangements for the purpose of providing superannuation for teachers. The real point of controversy that has emerged during this Debate has been, roughly, as to whether or not this Bill should be now passed without the Government disclosing, more or less fully, what their standpoint is with regard to what is called the Emmott Report. That is one point that has been put forward. Another point was put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. D. M. Cowan), namely, the reaction of this particular Bill upon the Scottish teachers May I reiterate the point that has already been made in the course of this discussion: that there are, of course, three interests involved in this question of superannuation—the interest of the State, the interest of the local authorities, and the interest of teachers. Any scheme of superannuation that has anything like finality about it, must, obviously, have due regard to the point of view of those three interests. It must necessarily be, therefore, a comprehensive scheme, a scheme that can only be introduced after the most exhaustive inquiry and most exhaustive examination. Consequently, the Government, to-night, are contenting themselves, having regard to the complex character of the Bill which would have to be introduced later finally to settle those difficulties, to ask the House at the present moment to carry on the present arrangement until we can exhaustively examine the situation.

The point has been put by various speakers that the Government should state its point of view with regard to the Emmott Report, and I will try to be as frank as I possibly can with the Noble Lord opposite in what I have to say. The right hon. Gentleman the ex-Minister of Education expressed the hope that we would not allow ourselves to be rushed. Neither are we going to allow ourselves to be rushed by the right hon. Gentleman. Consequently, I am encouraged to tell the Noble Lord opposite that the Government are not prepared to make up their minds absolutely, and finally, and with grim determination upon this point, until they are reassured that every avenue of discussion has been examined, and every approach to a final agreement amongst the various authorities concerned has been traversed.

I should like to make it quite clear I do not ask the hon. Member to commit himself to any detail as to whether local authorities should contribute or not, or anything of that sort. I only ask him whether, in principle, he regards himself as going towards a contributory or a non-contributory scheme.

I am rather accustomed to the seductive tones of my hon. Friend, and I am not going to allow myself to be drawn in that way. If the Noble Lord is really interested in that subject, I can only commend a phrase I have heard from my right hon. Friend below the Gangway on more than one occasion. He will have to wait and see, I am afraid. Another reason why the Government take up that attitude is simply this. I have already told the House there are three interests concerned—the State, the local authorities and the teachers—and it is obviously in the interests of all concerned, and certainly in the interests of education generally, that any settlement arrived at shall be, if possible, and as far as possible, an agreed settlement. You will not have contentment in the schools if you superimpose a settlement which will not be a settlement at all. Consequently, the Government are very clearly and very definitely of this mind, that until they have exhaustively examined the situation, and got to know precisely what is the point of view of the teachers, and what is the point of view of the local authorities, whether the teachers are prepared to consider this, or that, or the other scheme, whether the local authorities are prepared to make a contribution or not, the Government are quite justified in saying," We will not determine our attitude until we know exactly what is in their minds." If, on the other hand, the Government presumed at this moment to enunciate its point of view in regard to the scheme, it might be interpreted as a statement to this effect: if you do not come to an agreement, or unless you agree to this or that, we will have to fall back upon this, that, or the other course, and it might be—I do not say it would be—interpreted as holding, as it were, a pistol at the head of the local authorities and others. Therefore we want to enter into this discussion with as little bias as possible, and we might, therefore, be relieved from any need further to explain our view in regard to the Emmott Report.

I can only say, from my knowledge of the local authorities and of the teachers, that they are circumspect people on both sides, and not likely to jump at any bargain without having examined it carefully, and certainly not in the course of a month. In regard to the question of the reaction of this Bill on Scottish teachers, I quite appreciate that Scottish teachers are anxious to know how they stand in regard to this question of superannuation. But, after all, they must bear this quite clearly in mind: this is a Bill which concerns English and Welsh teachers, and not primarily Scottish teachers. Consequently, seeing that is so, it is quite proper and legitimate for us to introduce a Bill dealing with English and Welsh teachers. As the hon. Member knows full well, the superannuation conditions in Scotland are in many respects very different from those in England and Wales.

Is it not the case that the Secretary for Scotland has stated that it is proposed to introduce a Bill for Scotland similar to this one?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will put a question on that matter to his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland? I am merely putting the case from our point of view. We are not discussing Scottish, but English and Welsh teachers. In regard to the question of funding I was very much interested in what my hon. Friend said. Without going into the question in detail at this particular moment, I think that an adequate reply would be to say these two or three things: In the first place a funding proposal would be almost impossible, nay, utterly impossible, until you know precisely what the contributions of the teachers are to be. Secondly, funding proposals would be impossible unless you knew how many teachers are going to contribute. Thirdly—I think hon. Members will appreciate that it is still perfectly fair for me to put the point, although my hon. Friend has said he would not go lo the length of moving that the Bill be read this day six months—there is no prejudice involved to the teachers' interests in this particular Bill, inasmuch as those interests are now conserved by Act of Parliament. Fourthly, the rights of the teachers are entirely preserved, from the point of view of funding, if that should be desirable at a later date, and without prejudice in any way whatever.

What answer has the hon. Member to the point put by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson)?

I do not know that I can reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University except by referring him to the President's statement in regard to the independent or private schools which would probably have to be kept in mind when we came to the implications of the Emmott Report at a later stage.

I am afraid there has been some misunderstanding. I am not asking the hon. Gentleman to say anything about what the Emmott Report said on the private schools in relation to the scheme specified. The Report also said that the 1918 Act allowed certain non-grant-aided schools, under certain conditions, to come in under the general superannuation scheme of 1918, and under that scheme some 50 or 60 schools were actually admitted before 1922. Since 1922, as I understand it, under the Emmott Report further applications from such non-grant-aided schools have been received, and have been held up by the Treasury pending the Report of the Emmott Committee. The Emmott Committee records that without prejudice to their eventual recommendations, that the Treasury should forthwith—I think I am quoting the Report—take into consideration these pending applications with a view to inclusion.

I confess I am not fully acquainted with this point. Perhaps, therefore, the Noble Lord will allow me to say that it will be considered at a later stage. I hope the House will now let us have the Second Reading of this Bill.

Question," That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Trade Facilities Bill

Considered in Committee [Progress 12th March. ]

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Increase of amount of loans which may be guaranteed under 11 and 12 Geo. 5. c. 65, and extension of period for giving of guarantees.)

I beg to move in page 1, at the end of line 12, to insert the words could raise its own money in the financial market in the ordinary way. The credit of the State should only be pledged during a period of emergency in order to get over a special period of industrial distress.

What has happened since the Act of 1921 was passed? The Treasury, acting under Section 1 of that Act, appointed an Advisory Committee. I think I am right in saying that the Committee is composed of three very distinguished financiers, three city men who command the confidence of this House, and I am sure they also command the confidence of the country. I have not a word to say against the Advisory Committee from that point of view, but I am not at all satisfied with the way in which they have carried out the provisions of the Act of 1921–22. Men of the character and the type of those who compose this Committee may be relied upon to carry out the Treasury point of view, and I think we all agree that that is "safety first" in financial matters.

If you look at the White Paper you will see that they have put into operation this "safety first" principle in selecting the loans they have advanced. It will be readily conceded that almost without conception every loan guaranteed has been given on such security, collateral or otherwise, as to make it certain that they could have had the money on the financial market in the ordinary way. I submit that that is not the intention of the Act. I have no desire to single out any one firm, but there are names in the list in this White Paper who have gone to the public and got the money they wanted, although they are firms of such standing that they would have had no difficulty in raising millions in the ordinary way. Why put them under this Act which was never intended for them, because their names should never appear in any list of guarantees by the State. I say that the Act has not been carried out properly, because the Committee have been governed by the one dominant consideration that the security was ample before the guarantee was given, and I submit that that is not the intention of the Act.

We are told that the Committee have had over 400 applications, and I think the number of guarantees number something like 50. Is it suggested that the other 350 applications were schemes that did not come within the provisions of the Act? I suggest that they were schemes which needed financial assistance. The net result is, that the guarantees have been given to firms who could have had the money on the financial market, but they would have had to pay 1½ per cent. or 2 per cent, more than they now have secured the loan for under this scheme. I am anxious that in future no guarantee should be given to any concern or any undertaking or corporation in connection with a capital undertaking sound enough to go to the financial market in the ordinary way and get their money.

I quite see that I am going to be met with a very obvious criticism that the Treasury are dealing with the taxpayers' credit, and should not take any risk. If they are not going to take any risks, what is the use of the Act? I contend that this is a piece of emergency legislation, and it is infinitely better for this country that the Government should take risks in this matter, bearing in mind that the objective of this legislation is to create jobs. It is much better to take a risk of that kind than to keep on paying doles which have no return whatever. The risk is very small. I have been reading the Debate which took place on the 1921 Act, and I notice that some of the financial experts in the House at that time estimated the amount of risk attached to this scheme was equal to about a 5 per cent. premium at Lloyds.

The total amount involved was £65,000,000 so that a 5 per cent. premium would be roughly about £3,000,000. Consequently it is wrong to say that we are passing an Act that will pledge the credit of the State to £65,000,000, because it is really only risking £3,000,000. If this Amendment is passed, it will be a definite instruction to the Advisory Committee to deal with any application from the point of view of how it is calculated to reduce unemployment. I think they ought and should take all the risks that an issuing house would not take, otherwise there is no point in the Bill at all. I hope nothing will be taken from what I have said to indicate that I am criticising this very excellent Committee as far as it goes, but I blame the Treasury for not taking a bigger risk and a broader view of this question. I am a great believer in the possibilities of this Measure during periods of emergency, and, therefore, in my Amendment I am anxious to provide that those firms who can get the money on the financial market should go there for it. If it falls through, then I think it could look to this Committee to help it, provided also that it will be helping in reducing unemployment. Therefore, I beg to move the Amendment.

I feel some difficulty about this Amendment. Broadly speaking, I agree with what has fallen from the lips of the hon. Gentleman opposite. Undoubtedy this Bill was for the purpose of helping those who were perfectly solvent but were in difficulty. The Amendment would, I think, defeat the entire object of the Bill, and the object he has in view. It would block out the ability of the big firms to borrow, and it would also block out the ability of the small man, whom both he and I wish to help, to take advantage of this Bill. I think the Amendment is not drafted in the way that would operate beneficially. The words are

"as are not able without guarantees."

What is the accurate proof of ability? How can it be proved that a firm is not able, without guarantees, to secure the necessary loan? Very often it is only a question of price.

Then the hon. Gentleman goes on again—

"loans on the financial market."

What is the financial market? That is a very loose expression. That is where I am at issue with him on this Amendment. These two forms of words prevent me from supporting him. What is the financial market? A big firm or a small firm attempts to borrow money in what he calls the financial market. Is it the open market through subscription? Does it mean through the help of financial houses? Does it mean loans which can be placed privately on the market by stockbrokers and through clients, or does the financial market mean that a firm shall not obtain without guarantees money from even the banks? There is no need for me to labour the point. I think I have shown conclusively that the mere drafting of the Amendment, however much the hon. Gentleman opposite wishes to attain our object, prevents me voting for it.

I join with my hon. Friend in hoping that this Amendment will not be pressed. While, like him, I have some sympathy with the desire of the hon. Member to secure in all proper cases the facilities of this Act, and also to secure that State credit is not used where State credit is not required, yet I think he has somewhat misconceived both the purport of the Act and the result which would ensue from his Amendment. In a single sentence, the object of this Act is to get work anticipated and done now, which would not be done now if the assistance of this Act were not given. That is the sole purpose of this Act, and the sole justification for it. The cardinal test to be applied is, will the work which will put workmen, particularly of the skilled kind, into the workshops of this country not be done unless the assistance of this Act is given? If that be the test to be applied, surely the opening ought to be available to any firm, great or small, which can satisfy the Committee, advising the Treasury, that it requires assistance in order to anticipate its work, and that there is a reasonable risk which the Treasury is justified in undertaking. If that is the position he cannot apply the test which he has laid down.

Whether the market be the open market by public issue, or by arrangement direct with the banks or a financial house, we shall get this further consideration, at what rate is the money going to be raised? It may well be, and it has been, as I am sure the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will bear me out, that a very large number of cases in which millions of pounds worth of work has been done under this Act, and by means of which tens of thousands of men have been employed, has been done because a firm of unimpeachable financial standing which could raise millions in the open market, if it went to the open market, has refrained from putting this work in hand because prices were at the present moment too high to justify it raising a loan at the rate at which it would have to raise it without the Government guarantee. That was the whole case with the underground railways; a case where I think I am perfectly safe in saying the Treasury will not be involved in a single penny of liability, and where the credit is obviously such that it could raise the money in the open market. The whole position was this. Here was a scheme of work most desirable in its character, most essential that it should be undertaken, not merely from the point of view of putting people into immediate employment, but also that of the traffic facilities and housing facilities which would flow from it. Yet the whole crux of the situation there was this. At what rate could the underground railway companies raise the money in order to justify them going ahead with the work? If they had raised it in the open market without guarantees they would have had to raise it at a higher rate. If they raised it with the Government guarantee they could raise it at a lower rate. That is a typical case; there must be many others. I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. I am sure he would be preventing a great deal of this work that he wishes to see put in hand.

In the minute or so in which I shall deal with this Amendment I would ask the opportunity to be a little irrelevant in, order to make a very short statement as regards the position of the Bill as a whole and the mass of Amendments with which we are confronted tonight. It simply amounts to this: that, as the Committee knows, the Act expired in the middle of November last, and we are already in very great difficulty regarding its renewal—difficulty to this extent, that the Advisory Committee has provisionally sanctioned a considerable amount of further guarantee the whole employment under which is held up until this Bill is placed on the Statute Book. I regret—the House is in no way responsible—that we have reached the Committee stage so very late to-night and that so many Amendments still fall to be discussed. Unless we get the Committee stage of the Bill to-night or early tomorrow morning, and the Report stage tomorrow, then there is no chance of making any further progress with this scheme until about the middle of May, as Parliamentary and Budget arrangements stand. I feel perfectly sure that all hon. Members who are interested in the employment which will come under this Act will co-operate with us to the best of their ability in getting the scheme through.

On the Amendment itself, my right hon. Friend who has just spoken, and also the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel), have pointed out the very clear difficulties which it contains. In effect it amounts to this, that we have to reserve the further £15,000,000 of guarantee, under this extension of the legislation, to undertakings which cannot raise money in the open market without the guarantee. I think the reply, from the point of view of the Government, will be perfectly obvious on that point. To begin with, if an undertaking cannot raise the money in the open market, it is not unfair to suggest that there must be something, at all events in many cases, wrong with its security, and that would seem to make it very difficult indeed1 for the Advisory Committee to operate under this Act to put it in the position of a body which could get the guarantee. The Advisory Committee must be entrusted with a great deal of discretion, and I think, without pushing caution to an extreme in any way, it must be satisfied with the general security that is offered, and also that the State is not going to be called upon to pay the guarantee. Further, I think there is no case for this Amendment if there is a suggestion in any quarter that particular classes of applicants have been excluded, or that in any way the conditions in regard to security and the rest have been too strict, because, in fact, up to November last, when the Act expired, there remained, of the £50,000,000 which had then been guaranteed, about £12,000,000 which had not been taken up at all, and which was still available for the use of anyone who came forward. I hardly think, therefore, that anyone has been excluded who should not have been excluded.

Now I fall back upon this point, that there is, after all, a very large contingent liability under this scheme, and the House will recall that there are many people who are anxious to promote employment, and even to make a departure from ordinary methods of finance, who have never been in favour of the State stepping in with any kind of guarantee at all. They have gone beyond that, and have put forward that argument, not merely as regards normal times, but as regards times of emergency as well. Therefore, this legislation has required a good deal of defence. In any case, however, we are in this legislation, and, looking to the fact that the aggregate amount of the guarantees will ultimately be £65,000,000, if the whole, grant is covered, we are, if even a small proportion of that should fall to be made good by the State, committed to a very considerable sum of money. For such reasons the Advisory Committee must be careful in all its guarantees, without being drastic, and I venture to think that that general argument is, on the whole, a reply to this Amendment. There will be no desire whatever to be unduly strict. Having regard to all the circumstances, I trust that the hon. Member will not consider it necessary to go to a Division.

As far as I am concerned, I should have had a great deal more sympathy with the Financial Secretary in his appeal for the rapid progress of this Bill, but for the action of the Government in putting down on the Order Paper this afternoon a matter for which there was no urgency, and which could have been quite easily left over until May, June or July. If, as I suggested at Question Time, this Bill could have been made the first Order on the Paper, there is no doubt whatever that it would have made more rapid progress. Having said that, I must say that I find myself, for once, more in agreement with the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment than with the late President of the Board of Trade and the hon. Member for Farnham. It seems to me that, in the case of people who require this assistance, it is simply a question of the rate of interest that is going to be charged, and, as the hon. Member who moved the Amendment said quite clearly, I do not see why any person in this country should be placed in an advantageous position simply because he has a Government guarantee. I do not think the Government have any right to give a guarantee to one section of the community and not to another, and, taking the Amendment as it is on the Paper, I do not think that any person who has failed to obtain these guarantees from the ordinary sources should come to the Government for them.

I think I ought to say quite clearly that one of the matters which has caused me and some of my friends in this House a good deal of misgiving, has been a recent flotation by a firm which could quite easily have secured that advance on the ordinary money market, but has obtained a guarantee under the Trade Facilities Act, with the result simply that, instead of paying 6 or 7 per cent, for their money, as they would have had to do in the ordinary way, they were able to obtain it at 5 per cent. I do not see how, by the wildest stretch of imagination, that is going to give us any more work or any new work, or is going to do any good to those who are unemployed. The only result is that the firm in question are able to put money into their own pocket. I feel very strongly that, while there are items in this Measure which commend themselves from the point of view of finding employment, it has not, in the vast majority of cases, been used to the advantage that it should have been, and I think it has been proved, in many of its aspects, to have failed to secure that advantage. For these reasons I hope the Amendment will not be withdrawn, but will be pressed to a Division, in order to secure that this very valuable provision shall be added to the Bill.

Personally, I have always experienced some doubt as to the wisdom of supporting private enterprise by methods of this kind, and it has only been the unprecedented period of unemployment, and the abnormal conditions obtaining in our country that have induced me to support the provisions incorporated in this Bill, which we hope will finally become an Act. I observe now that some of these suspicions, which were rather laughed at in the early days of the inception of this legislation, are spreading further a field. Whatever may be said as to the Amendment— whether it will meet the situation or not, I do not know; I am inclined to think that ii will not be as effective as the Mover desires—yet we find that the ex-President of the Board of Trade and the hon. Member for Farnham both have some doubt as to the policy that has hitherto been pursued in this matter. They have a feeling of some doubt as to whether the best course has been pursued, and, while I would not be a party to casting any reflection upon those who carry out their duties in the most admirable manner, this doubt, nevertheless, does exist in the minds of people, as to whether we are not giving support to companies and firms which, if left to them- selves in the open market, would be able to gather the requisite financial backing. This is a very important point. The Financial Secretary has not given us that assurance to which I think we are entitled. We have had a wide experience now of the administration of the provisions of this Act and there is a feeling abroad, and it is growing, that the credit of the State is being used to give support to people and companies which are in a position to finance their own undertakings.

Are we to understand, for instance, that the well-known shipbuilding firm of Harland and Wolff, a firm of high standing which occupies a position that is unequalled in the shipbuilding industry, could not raise sufficient money—I think it is £95,000—without securing a guarantee under this Act? I think the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) would not apply in this case. Then I take the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, as far as I know a very substantial company and well grounded. It secures a guarantee under the provisions of this Act. Then I come to the London Electric Railway Company, an amount of £2,356,000, and the South London Electric Company, £3,769,000. I am rather inclined to think that these well established companies ought to have been able to float their undertakings without these guarantees from the State and leave the guarantees for others who might reasonably be anxious and willing to enter the arena and produce measures of employment for the unemployed. I should have expected the Financial Secretary to give us some greater assurance that greater stringency would obtain in the future and that the tip would be given to this Advisory Committee not to be so ready to give support to companies of the character I have suggested. Although we give these guarantees we appear to have no control over the conditions operating and arising from the contract—conditions affecting labour. Though we bring the whole credit of the State to the support of great companies like those I have mentioned, we have nothing which leads me to believe that we have any power to lay down the conditions under which the workers are employed. These companies can lay down conditions in connection with the working of their contracts without any interference or supervision, yet it is upon the guarantee of the State they proceed with their contracts. From the experience and knowledge gathered in the administration of the Acts, I should have thought some more definite assurance might have been given by the hon. Gentlemen. Though the hon. Member may think it wise to withdraw his Amendment the feeling exists and is growing in force that resort is being made to the provisions of the Bill by companies, who, in the judgment of many who are more competent to judge than myself, are able to secure the necessary financial backing in the open market. This ought not to continue.

I am glad the hon. Member who has just sat down has taken the opportunity of the Amendment to move the rejection of the Bill, because chat I understand is the tenour of his speech. I had not thought of it myself, but the Financial Secretary has given us a reason why we should continue this Debate in that, if we can only keep it going long enough, we shall be able to prevent the Bill passing. I believe it is a thoroughly uneconomic and unsound Bill of no advantage whatever to the trade of the country. There seemed to be an idea that there was an unlimited supply of capital and credit, and that it needs a Bill of this kind to exploit it. I think most hon. Members find there are limitations on capital, and also a limitation to one's credit. If one spends one's money in certain directions, one has less capital and less credit to embark upon adventures of another kind. Surely what applies to an individual must apply to a nation.

The hon. Member is now going too wide. He must restrict himself to the Amendment, which is that this money should only be given to companies which do not need the guarantee.

I was carried away by some of the speeches which have been made. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon told us the real intention of the Bill was to encourage people to anticipate work.

The hon. Member must not really make a Second Reading speech on this Amendment. He must restrict himself to the subject of the Amendment. He must restrict himself to the Amendment, which is whether or not it should be given to companies who do not need the guarantee.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that the intention of the Bill was to encourage work and he instanced certain railway undertakings in London. The shipping companies, which are, I understand, referred to in the Amendment, have been encouraged to build ships and have been able to get money from the Advisory Committee for that purpose when at present a great amount of tonnage is lying idle. It seems to me there ought to be some guidance, or at any rate the Treasury ought not to accept unreservedly the decision of the Advisory Committee on recommendations of that kind. I trust the Amendment will be pressed to a Division.

The firm of Harland and Wolff has been mentioned as one of the firms that have received credit facilities under the Act. I have often wondered whether under the facilities they get they, are using the money in buying up, as they have been doing, other firms, rather than using the money in order to absorb the unemployed by providing other kinds of work. We have had the firm of Harland and Wolff, operating under the same chairman, buying up the Clydeside steel works and other adjoining iron and steel works. I would like the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to tell us how his Department operates, and whether it gets a report as to how the facilities given by this House are used. Is there any method whereby instructions accompany the grant of the facilities as to how the money is to be used? I come to the question of new firms. We have been told that it is only a firm of high standing that can get facilities. I can give evidence of small firms—they would have been large firms had they been helped—who have been concerned in small new things accruing since the War. They are concerned in various kinds of new plant that would have been manufactured in this country, but are now produced abroad. I would like to know how the Advisory Committee acts when an application is made and turned down. Do they inform the applicant why the application has been refused, and, it not, why not? The hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel), when he last spoke on this subject, said it would be unfair to give reasons why certain firms were not given facilities.

I said that it would be unfair to give reasons in public why applications under the Trade Facilities Act were not granted. As far as the firms are concerned, they know perfectly well, because they are told, why their applications are turned down. The matter is discussed quite freely and friendly. The only thing is that we do not want to talk about their affairs in public.

I have seen the correspondence that has passed in five different cases, and in none of these cases was a reason given why the application was turned down. Firms of high standing in Glasgow—with a standing as good as that of Harland and Wolff—were contracting to make the machinery if facilities had been given to the firm requiring the machinery, and yet, with those firms behind them, the application was refused. If this Trade Facilities Bill is to help in providing work in this country, or in some other part of the Empire, how is it that applications are made and difficulties are put in the way? Will the Financial Secretary tell us the method by which applications are dealt with, so that we may know that facilities are really given to help home industries which require help instead of sending money abroad.

10.0 P.M.

In supporting the Amendment, I should like to give an illustration how the Amendment would work in practice. Last year I happened to be in Burma inquiring into the economic resources of that country, and I was asked to report on a certain project for the development of coal in that country. At the present time, the whole of the coal for Burma is imported from India at a very high price. Owing to the fact that no coal at the present time is produced in Burma, the cost of all manufactures and transport is necessarily high. A certain group in Burma has spent a considerable amount of money in prospecting and developing coal properties. They found coal in very large quantities and endeavoured to raise a loan through the Trade Facilities scheme in connection with their coal proposition.

The total amount of orders which would have been placed in this country represented about £250,000, and these orders would have gone to those trades most in need of work—the engineering, electrical and shipbuilding trades. They applied to the Trade Facilities Committee for a loan equal to, but not exceeding, the amount of money which would have been spent in orders in this country, but, I think, because the project was a new one, that is to say, because it was a, new company, the Trade Facilities Committee would not allow their loan to go through. There is a case in which development is to some extent being handicapped because the Trade Facilities Act is not allowed to be used for new companies with the same degree of facility with which it is allowed to be used for the older companies which have been in existence for some considerable time.

The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Short) raised the case of Harland and Wolff and other firms which have been in existence for a considerable time, and are large capitalistic organisations which could probably have raised the same amount of money in the market at perhaps 2 or 3 per cent. more than they had to pay under the Trade Facilities Act. They would have had to raise it as a debenture or preference issue. In the case of a new company, it is obviously impossible for them to give to the Government the same security which an older company would be able to give. In the Second Reading Debate I asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he could not devise some machinery which would allow of these new companies being assisted by this Bill. I suggested to him that as there must be more risk where new companies were concerned than in the case of an old company with large assets, which would be a first charge upon the loan and would relieve the Government of the possibility of loss, would it not be possible for the Government, if they gave assistance to new companies, to participate in the profit as a result of the activities of the new firm. He informed me that he would look into the matter. I do not know what the result has been, but I do hope that he will be able to devise some machinery which will allow of these new companies being assisted. What are the reasons why I think this Amendment is a good one? During the last three years new enterprises have been prevented from coming into existence because of the trade slump and because existing enterprises have been able to offer very attractive terms on account of the difficulty of raising finance of any importance. Therefore, new enterprises have been subjected to more competition than they would be subjected to in the ordinary course of events. It is the new enterprises which really give more employment and more possibilities of future employment to this country, and that is why I think that, if a certain proportion of this fund could be allocated solely to new enterprises, the result would be very beneficial to the industry of this country. The hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Darbishire) stated he thought that this was a Very bad Bill. He does not appear to realise that the problem before this country is one of employment.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot discuss whether this is a bad Bill or not. He must discuss this Amendment.

I quite agree with your ruling. I was merely answering the hon. Gentleman opposite. If one takes this Amendment and analyses it, I hope the hon. Member for Westbury will realise that there will be more employment caused and given by Amendments of this character. It seems to me that, so long as we have unemployment, more credit should be given as long as that credit is covered by the security produced. That must be to the advantage of employment in this country. Turning again to the question as to whether or not the words of this Amendment, that the additional £15,000,000 be used exclusively for such capital undertakings as not able without guarantees to secure the necessary loans on the financial market, I think it must be admitted that if this machinery is to be utilised with full advantage, it must be more advantageous to those firms, if they are sound and if the projects they want to develop are sound, to be assisted, and we should leave the existing corporations which can raise money on the open market at one per cent. or two per cent. more, to raise it in the ordinary way. There is very little doubt that, if this Amendment is accepted, it will allow more persons to be employed in this country than would otherwise be the case, because those other companies, such as Harland and Wolff, which have been mentioned in this Debate, would in any event be able to raise the money they require. They would in any event, if they have orders, take such steps as may be necessary to arrange for financing them. I am convinced that more employment would be given in this country if this sum of £15,000,000 was exclusively applied to new co-operations and new companies than to existing corporations, which can raise money if they really want to by paying perhaps a little more. I should like, when the Financial Secretary replies, if he will say whether he has considered the suggestions I made in the Second Reading Debate, and whether he is taking steps to devise machinery on the lines I then suggested.

I desire to bring forward two reasons in support of the Amendment which has been moved. The first argument I should like to adduce is that it appears to me there are very many firms who have exhausted their overdrafts at the bank, who may be very sound with regard to their financial position, but who need perhaps £10,000 or £20,000, according to the capital they have invested in their business, which it may not be possible for the bank with whom they are dealing to give them upon the securities they have to offer, but which would practically offer no risk to the Government if the Government guaranteed the amount There are hundreds of such firms in this country who would be able very largely to develop their output, who would be able to engage a far larger number of workmen, and this would assist unemployment at the present time without any substantial risk to the Government at all. Therefore, it appears to me that, instead of guaranteeing the money to those very large firms of undoubted reputation and capacity, the Government should guarantee the smaller firms. I do not think those larger firms would have to pay anything like the figure mentioned to-night. I should say that they should be able to borrow from the public within a half or not more than one per cent. of what they would get from the Government guarantee. Those firms of undoubted reputation would not need to pay 2 per cent. above the price they would have to pay with the Government guarantee. The next reason I wish to adduce is that it would be a very great inducement to large firms, who are able to command in the market a large supply of capital necessary for their undertakings without the Government guarantee, to refuse to find this money by their own initiative, because they would be able to say, "If we go to the Government we can borrow at a ½or 1 per cent. less than we can on our own initiative." What inducement is there, then, for any large firm to initiate enterprise and develop new undertakings without going to the Government? In my opinion, the fact of the Government taking up this position and being prepared to advance the money to those large firms who can borrow it, will prevent a large number of firms going to the public on their own initiative. I think that argument should appeal to the Secretary to the Treasury. On those grounds, I say that the Amendment ought to secure the support of the House, but I do hope that, if the Government take on those smaller firms and try to foster, as they ought to foster, enterprise among them to develop their business, they will be very careful in every case to see that there is no debenture or any other prior charges to the Government getting back their money that would enable the guarantee of the Government to be brought into operation on account of the debenture and the prior charges. On these grounds I support the Amendment.

Before the Financial Secretary replies, may I point out that the Amendment does not carry out the intention expressed in the speeches which I have heard. Hon. Members who have spoken in support of this Amendment seem to imagine that this only affects new undertakings. That is not the case. It is not limited in any way to new undertakings. The whole question of new undertakings and new enterprises does not come under this Amendment at all. It provides that the additional amount to be given under this Bill is

"to be used exclusively for such capital undertakings as are not able without guarantees to secure the necessary loans on the financial market."

That means that the whole of this money can be used for old undertakings as well as new undertakings. It is entirely a question of price and how much they have to pay to get the necessary loans.

May I point out that in practice it is the new undertakings that cannot obtain loans under the Trade Facilities Act, because the assets which they are able to give are not comparable with the assets of the older companies, and therefore in practice this Amendment is really trying to divert the funds to new companies. So far as the financial standing of the new companies is concerned, as my right hon. Friend says, that will be subject to appropriate investigation, and the investigation of the Advisory Committee will not pass any loan to a rotten concern.

I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his extremely interesting interruption, and I suggest that he should now rise in his place, as he is entitled to do, and speak again and move an Amendment to this Amendment limiting its application to new concerns. Then there would be some sense in the Amendemnt. If he will move that the additional £15,000,000 should be used exclusively for such new capital undertakings as are not able without guarantees to secure the necessary loans on the financial market, I am willing to support the Amendment. Otherwise I am not. The reason that I am against it was given particularly in the speech of the hon. Member of the Harborough Division (Mr. Black), who said that he was in favour of this Amendment, and added that the Advisory Committee ought to make sure that no prior debentures or other charges should have priority over the Government guarantee. Take that in conjunction with this Amendment and it is really ludicrous. I will give an example. There is a well-known company which has applied to the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee for financial assistance towards the construction of a very important railway in Africa. That company has already raised on the financial market, in London and abroad, very large sums of money for the construction of this railway, which is now proceeding. The only question now is whether the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee will, on reasonable terms, give them sufficient credit facilities here and now to raise the further necessary capital for the completion of the railway. The company could borrow the money at 7 per cent, or 8 per cent., but if they got the Government guarantee they would be able to get it at 5½ per cent, or 6 per cent. The whole prospect of this particular company getting this necessary assistance will be defeated by this Amendment, and it would be most unfortunate if that were so. It may be that there are other grounds on which this particular guarantee would be ruled out, but this is a company which I happen to know, and whose application I support. The Amendment is a wrecking Amendment in its present form. It is a Liberal contribution to the solution of the unemployment problem. That is very interesting, because it is an impracticable suggestion. I would urge its supporters to insert after the words "such" ["for such capital undertakings"] the word "new," otherwise there will be no sense in the Amendment.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "such" ["for such capital undertakings"], to insert the word "new."

That would enforce the value of the Amendment. It is the new undertakings which are most in need of assistance, and which give more employment in this country. The intention of the Bill as a whole is that employment should be increased in this country.

I ask hon. Members not to press the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, because the difficulties of this original Amendment are rather intricate, and there may be further difficulties caused by introducing new words. The Report stage of the Bill will be reached some time in May, and there will be plenty of time before then to think out necessary Amendments. In voting for the original Amendment, as I propose to do, I am not voting for this particular wording, but for the principle involved, and I am doing so in the hope of being able to secure an Amendment of that original Amendment on the Report stage, which will add to the effect of the Bill. I feel there is a great deal in the Amend- ment, and while something must be put into the Bill to improve the drafting, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press his Amendment to the Amendment, but will leave the matter to be dealt with on the Report stage.

I think the Committee will agree that to allot £15,000,000 to new companies alone would not be fair to older companies which have been carrying on against adversity, and are doubtless looking forward to participating in the advantages of this Measure. I think a sum of £5,000,000 would be quite sufficient so far as new companies are concerned. Our aim is reconstruction. We do not wish to destroy, nor do we wish to build any barrier around companies which have been struggling under adverse conditions. The party to which I belong is not known in this House as a party which throws down its old friends and takes up new ones. We prefer to stick to the old friends and in this case, I think, the Amendment to the Amendment goes rather far in inserting the words "new" without any qualification. It may mean in practice that certain old companies will change themselves into new companies. They will be re-floated with the same directors and the same capital in order to get the advantage of this provision, whereas other older and more honourable firms, who remain as they are, will not be able to participate. If it is possible to do so, and if the Committee will accept such a suggestion, I ask that the Amendment to the Amendment should be altered to insert words to the effect that only £5,000,000 of the additional £15,000,000 is to be used exclusively for such new capital undertakings as are not able, without guarantees, to secure the necessary loans on the financial market. I do not know if it would be permissible to move such an Amendment now.

It would not be in order to move such an Amendment. We have already an Amendment before the Committee dealing with subsequent words in the original Amendment.

May I ask your advice, Sir, on this matter? Is it possible at this stage of the Debate to bring up this point in the event of the present Amendment to the Amendment being negatived?

The hon. Member must not ask me for advice. I can only rule on the Amendments as they are moved.

The only thing I can do, for the present, is support the Amendment to the Amendment, but, in doing so, I think some steps should be taken to ensure that only £5,000,000 is allotted to new companies.

I ask the Committee to consider what is the real effect of the Amendment. I look on this question, from the lawyer's point of view, as affecting the evidence that would have to be brought before the Advisory Committee. If this Amendment be passed, the applicant would have to bring evidence before the Committee to show the bad state of his credit. He would call his banker to testify that he would not advance him another shilling. I think hon. Members are tying the hands of the Committee in a ridiculous way if they insist upon this Amendment. If only a man's credit were bad enough, he could then get a Government guarantee, but not other wise. The Scriptures say: "He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and has exalted the humble and mean." This Amendment would make the Act a sort of financial Magnificat. In future, when the reckless son has played ducks and drakes with the business, instead of his father accusing him of having ruined it, he would fall on his neck and say: "My son, you have saved the business. Our credit is now so bad that we can get a Government guarantee and borrow at 4 per cent." I ask the Committee not to make itself ridiculous by accepting this Amendment.

I am torn between the Amendment and the Amendment to the Amendment. I cannot follow the last speaker, who is a lawyer, while I am a farmer. I am not at all certain as to whether I should like to vote for the word "new" being inserted in the Amendment. In the constituency from which I come we have a railway line, the Mid-Suffolk line, and I would, of course, like that line to benefit under this Amendment, but it could not. On the other hand, we are very interested in sugar beet—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I am glad to observe that hon. Members have sweet teeth—and I would, for that reason, like to vote for the Amendment to the Amendment.

I hope the Committee will realise the position in which they are placed. A good many pledges have been given to existing businesses, but if this word "new" is put in all the pledges given about businesses now going on will not be able to be carried into effect, and I hope the Committee, as business men, will realise what this Amendment to the Amendment would do. It is all very well to make game of things, but let us look at the question as business men. An hon. Member opposite spoke about different classes of business that were getting these guarantees. I do not think any of the three businesses mentioned, Harland and Wolff, the Royal Mail, and the Underground Railway, come under the kind of category to which the hon. Member referred. Let us try to keep in mind what we are trying to do. You say to the people to whom you guarantee money, like the Underground Railway, "Cannot you put business in hand now to try to deal with some of this unemployment? If you do that, we will assist you in guaranteeing the money." Then you begin denouncing these people as if they were doing something which they are not entitled to do. I hope the Committee will reject the Amendment, and let us do business in a business-like way.

The Noble Lord the Member for the Eye division (Lord Huntingfield) mentioned he was a farmer. I happen to be a simple weaver. I am a weaver of cloth, and there seems to be a large amount of weaving of words going on without any web to it at all. Last year, when this Bill was before the House of Commons, the Noble Lord and hon. Members opposite were strong supporters of the Bill. What has made them change their minds?

May I say I am bothered about the object of the Amendment to the Amendment? It seems as if the House of Commons are playing at marbles, and have little serious intention either about the Amendment to the Amendment, or the Amendment itself. It appears that the only line for a simple man like myself to take is to back the Government.

I do think it necessary to say, as one who is a supporter of the Trade Facilities Bill, and one who knows that a very large amount of work has been got in this bad time through its operations, that I believe it is capable of doing valuable work. All I want to say, having the whole of this discussion in my mind, is that, in my judgment, we are voting as to whether we shall kill the Trade Facilities Bill or not. It is all very well in a light-hearted way to take an Amendment of this kind, and if there are those who wish to kill the Bill, they are doing that for which the country will condemn them out and out, and against something which practically all of us approved in the constituencies. I am, therefore, going to make an appeal to those who do not wish to destroy the Bill to reject this Amendment.

Just one word in reply to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Forfar (Mr. Falconer)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"] I have listened to quite a number of Debates in connection with the Trade Facilities Acts in Committee and in this House, and I have wondered to-night as I listened what hon. Members really have in view. I wish to call attention to this one point: that if the Amendment or the Amendment to the Amendment is passed, it largely limits; the very object that hon. Members have in view. It is necessary, too, to call attention to the rule which has been followed by the Committee in making these grants. It has been laid down that any advances or guarantees in respect of advances are not to be made if the State clearly runs a risk, and only for the purpose of facilitating and of putting in hand work which would be delayed otherwise owing to the high price to be paid for money. If either the Amendment or the Amendment to the Amendment is passed it will indicate a clear change in that policy. I do suggest to the Committee that it would be wise in the interests of the very parties they desire to serve that both Amendments should be withdrawn. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] It is impossible to carry my argument to a conclusion without a strain upon the ruling, as to what is in the scope of the matter before the Committee now, but I do urge that hon. Members should keep in view the limitations imposed upon the Committee that has to judge this matter, and upon the Treasury, and to withdraw both the Amendment and the Amendment to the Amendment.

My only object in moving my Amendment was to call the attention of the Advisory Committee to the necessity of confining these loans to those capital undertakings that cannot in the ordinary way get them on the financial market, but after the very full discussion, if my hon. Friend will agree, I am prepared to withdraw my Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"]

Amendment to proposed Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 1, at the end of line 16, to add the words

This Amendment does not make any reflection upon the Advisory Committee. The position of that Committee is well known, and the capacity and qualifications of its members are recognised. As a matter of fact, the risks do not arise when these guarantees are before the Advisory Committee, but anyone familiar with the history of limited liability and other companies is well aware that there is nothing to prevent money which has been subscribed for one purpose being used for a totally different object. Already there is in practice a test audit which has been instituted by the Ministry of Transport in connection with certain works carried out under the supervision of the Road Board. The French Government have established a similar provision for an independent audit with regard to companies which they have assisted, and they have the same object in view as I have in my Amendment. I would also like to point out that it is an additional source of security to have an independent audit, because it enables the statistics to be readily available and they can be made public. I think it will be agreed that there is very much less risk if we can secure publicity for the accounts. I think this fact was brought out in the recent dock dispute, during which a discussion took place as to what were the profits of certain concerns. I do not wish to develop that argument, but I think on this point I ought to have the support of the Leader of the Opposition, because during the recent Election, in a speech which the right hon. Gentleman made in South Wales, he advocated a policy of complete openness in industry, and the laying of all the cards on the table, and that is a policy which is advocated by many hon. Members who sit on these benches. I do not wish to develop that line of argument. It may be an objection to this Amendment that it is likely to deter some of those who may come forward and seek these facilities. I submit that any company which objects to this, and which has anything to conceal, is not one to which facilities should be given. It is true it would cause additional expense, but having regard to the fact that companies which are receiving the guarantee are receiving their money more cheaply than they could do in the ordinary way, I think that is not an objection which can be sustained. There are other ways in which this security might be sought. It might be advocated that Government directors should be appointed. Having regard to the very large number of these companies who apply, it would not be a desirable innovation. On the other hand, I have seen it suggested that companies should submit certain statements and file them at Somerset House with their other returns. I think, on the whole, the method suggested in the Amendment is the simplest and most suitable.

There can be no difference in principle on the Amendment which has been proposed by my hon. Friend. I rise at once to say that I think I shall be able to show the Committee that the Amendment is hardly required. Extreme care is taken by the Advisory Committee in the discharge of their duties. That is the first line of contention in a matter of this kind. Apart from that, when any guarantee is given, the Treasury requires the production of the balance sheet and profit and loss account of the preceding year, and that, of course, would put them in possession of all relevant information on this matter. Not only that, there is required from the auditors of the company that information which I have just mentioned, and also reports showing that from time to time adequate provision is being made for depreciation and reserves. I think that goes as far as any hon. Member would care to go in a matter of this kind. But there is the further protection that, during the period of the operation of the guarantee given by the State, there is power to call for a report at any time, and periodical reports are so obtained. There is, therefore, very clear provision that the guarantee will be strictly for the purpose for which it is given. On these grounds I think I have satisfied the Committee that every precaution is taken, and that this Amendment is not required.

On this occasion I find myself in agreement with the Government in condemning this Amendment, which is a most unworkable and ridiculous one. If this is the best that the great Liberal party can put forward, it does not say much for their intelligence. The Amendment asks that these guarantees shall be subject to the proviso that the Treasury shall require, in the case of limited liability companies, an annual independent, audit of the accounts. That means that, large concerns like Messrs. Harland and Wolff, or Messrs. Weir—all those people who have received guarantees under tilts Trade Facilities Act—who have already to pay large fees to their auditors, will have to pay a second fee to someone else. That is perfectly ridiculous. Everybody knows that the chartered accountants of this country can be trusted anywhere, and that no second independent audit of that kind is required. On the other hand, the next Amendment—

The hon. Member must not refer to the next Amendment. I am going to call that Amendment, and he can discuss it then.

On a point of Order. May I ask on what grounds an hon. Member cannot refer to another Amendment for the purpose of comparison?

If the hon. Member had listened to what I said, I do not think he would have raised that point.

Are we to understand that the hon. Member can refer to the next Amendment?

The observation I made was that I am going to call the next Amendment, and that any remarks which the hon. Member desires to make upon it he can make when that Amendment has been called.

I had not finished my sentence. Had I been allowed to do so, I think it would have enabled me to show that I was not going to argue on the next Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]

I am sorry the hon. and gallant Member cannot follow what I am saying. I think he will find that there is a considerable difference between that Amendment and this. [ Interruption. ]

Owing to the rather noisy interruptions of hon. Members opposite, the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull said across the Floor that he could not hear my remarks, and so I was trying to raise my voice in order that he might hear. I apologise. I have no desire to delay the Committee. I hope this Amendment will be strongly opposed by the Government, and that it will be treated seriously and not agreed to by the Committee.

11.0 P.M.

I only rise to point out that, in view of the Amendment which you Sir, have announced your intention to call, it seems to me that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) shows a curious inconsistency. He puts his name to an Amendment which shows that he considers, as we must all consider, that these public funds must be subject to some kind of supervision. His Amendment, in fact, proposes that where a limited liability company avails itself of these credit facilities there should be some independent supervision other than that of its own auditors. That is reasonable, and I cannot understand why the Financial Secretary should resist it. I certainly cannot understand why hon. Members above the Gangway, who are most zealous in the supervision of public funds, should associate themselves with, the entirely irrelevant observations of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer). I hope my hon. Friend will persist with the Amendment.

The hon. Member says he is surprised that the Financial Secretary should oppose the Amendment. What is the substance of it? The one simple point is that there should be two auditors instead of one, one acting for the Treasury and one for the company concerned. Surely our chartered accountants are absolutely beyond suspicion? An audit by a chartered accountant in any form desired by the Treasury is always accepted, and I hope always will be, as sufficient evidence as to the facts of the case and the financial position of the company. That is the sole matter raised in the Amendment, and the Financial Secretary is quite right in urging us to oppose it and pass on to the next.

I understand the hon. Member who proposed the Amendment said he did not intend to proceed with it. I think it shows an extraordinary grasp of things which should not be done. I hope it will not be withdrawn. It would be very interesting to see the names of those who vote in its favour. I am sure they would not consist of people who think very deeply because how is it going to be possible for many of these companies to have one independent audit and the ordinary annual audit 1 It is not difficult to understand how you cannot do it, because it is almost impossible to have two different firms at the same time taking the same audit? If it could be done, you would get exactly the same result, and then the Government would obtain no protection. As a matter of fact the other audit would have to come at some different time of the year. You would probably have the firms' audit ending in March and the independent audit about September. If we adopt this Amendment it would not only put the companies to extra cost, but it would complicate matters, it is intended to wreck the Bill. These Amendments are brought in with the pretended idea that they are supporting the Bill, but they are really trying to stab it in the back. I do not know whether this is the policy of the Liberal party as a whole, or the back, the middle, or the front portion of the party. We ought not to allow this Amendment to be withdrawn; it ought to go to a Division so that we may see which way hon. Members vote.

If there be a Division on this Amendment, I think it is desirable that before we divide hon. Members should recall the statement which I made with regard to business earlier in the day. If I have to regard the hon. Member who has just spoken as a strong supporter of the Bill, I would welcome his aid in another form. I am certain that the Leaders of the Opposition, and I hope I can say the same of the Leaders of the Liberal party, are as anxious as we are for the passing of this Bill. The Trade Facilities Act expired last November, since then there has been no automatic, working machinery to authorise these guarantees. Sums amounting to £5,000,000 have been provisionally guaranteed, and these additional millions covered by this Bill now lie in wait. Frankly—and I want hon. Members in all parts of the House to recognise this fact—unless this Bill passes through all its House of Commons stages by to-morrow, and to that end it must pass through its Committee stage to-night, thousands of workmen will be deprived of the job which surely they would have if this Bill speedily became law. It is all very well to say that this Bill should have been put down earlier—

On a point of Order. Should not the right hon. Gentleman move to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again, in order to make his statement?

I think this is in order. The right hon. Gentleman is speaking with the leave of the Committee, and I presume he will move to report Progress.

I prefer to be allowed to make a statement. I think the Leaders in all parts of the House would desire that the Bill should be passed. I have merely tried to state that.

On a point of Order. I suppose other hon. Members of the Committee will be allowed to answer this statement.

If it be the desire of the Committee to discuss this statement, then we must have a Motion to report Progress to put it in order.

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I do not, of course, wish to prevent any Debate on the statement that I have made. Accordingly I make this Motion.

I think that the Deputy-Leader of the House has made En exceedingly unfair speech. The Government cannot pass this Bill into law on this side of the Easter Recess, because they have adjourned the House of Lords for the Easter Recess. Therefore it does not make any difference whether we have the whole of the Committee stage to-night or not. My second point is that we on this side of the Committee are perfectly willing to stay up till five o'clock in the morning in order to show that no legislation can pass this House without being properly discussed. The idea that Bills are to be passed, and Amendments passed without any discussion is absolutely contrary to the traditions of this House. [ Interruption. ]

The third point I wish to make is, that we have been discussing on this Bill to-night entirely Liberal Amendments, brought forward by the Liberal party. [ Interruption. ] Therefore, I understand, the Government have made arrangements about the business with the Liberal party without discussing them in any way with the party on this side of the House. Therefore, I think, it is very unfair to suggest that we are in any way delaying the passage of this Bill when it is Liberal Amendments which have been proposed. Far more Liberals have spoken than we have. If the right hon. Gentleman has any complaint to make, he should address it to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). They are the people who are responsible. They are not in their places to-night. [ Interruption. ] The right hon. Gentleman knows that there has been no adequate discussion of the Amendments brought forward to this Bill, and the suggestion that we are in any way preventing people from getting employment through the passing of this Bill is utterly untrue

Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to state that what the Leader of the House has said is untrue? I would not allow him to say it.

The hon. Gentleman said that there were certain statements of fact which were not true. I do not think that there was any intention to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman made an untrue statement deliberately. That would be out of order.

So far as my friends and I are concerned, we have not the slightest desire to obstruct these proceedings. It is unfortunate that it was necessary to move to report Progress to have this discussion, for everybody in the House is conscious that this is an important Bill. On the other hand, it was pointed out that there are Amendments on the Paper, not only in the names of hon. Members of this party, but of hon. Members opposite, and hon. Members like the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) who are supporters of the Government. I would ask the Leader of the House are we to understand that he contemplates that this Bill will pass through all its stages in another place before Easter?

May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the best way to facilitate business would be to continue the Committee stage and finish it to-morrow. I understand that the Government are unwilling to accept any Amendment. In that case, there will be no Report stage and there will be no difficulty in taking the Third Reading on Wednesday before the Adjournment is moved. We shall then be in exactly the same position as we should have been in had it been possible, which I am convinced it is not, to get through the Committee stage to-night.

Before the Deputy Leader of the House replies, I want to say that I am associated with several of the hon. Members who have amendments on the Paper. Having had a full opportunity at two earlier stages of discussing these Amendments, and having been well beaten on them, we did not propose to carry them further in discussion or Division to-night. We had been led to believe that this Bill was an honourable responsibility by our Government, which they had received from their predecessors, and that we were bound in honour to pass the Bill at the earliest possible moment. Now we find that the Deputy-Leader of the House has to appeal to Conservatives and Liberals to pass the Bill.

It goes back sufficiently far for Liberals to be very closely associated with it. The Sudan Syndicate question, at least, was very closely associated with the Liberals. If I am to understand that the Labour Government lire now to be made responsible for what is not their Bill, and that they are to be obstructed by Liberals and Conservatives, my attitude and that of my Friends will be considerably altered. Considering that the Government have already a very overcrowded programme, I say that, if they cannot get this Bill speedily on to the Statute Book they should not worry about it, but should proceed with other schemes of social reform which are more vital and likely to do more for unemployment. If the right hon. Gentleman will accept my advice—he probably will not, I agree—he will see that this Bill is now dropped.

In my earlier remarks I had no idea whatever of allotting blame to any one side of the House. I accept the view that all parties have, not only a practical interest in the passage of the Bill, but have been directly sharing in the discussion and have had a hand in the Amendments. I did not intend to impute any blame to one side of the House more than another, so far as blame exists, at all. What I said on the question of getting the Bill through was not that I had the idea that the Bill could be got through and put upon the Statute Book before Easter. I distinctly said that we had in mind to get the Bill through all its House of Commons stages. We well knew that it could not go to another place until the first two or three days after the House had re-assembled after Easter. But, should that not be done, it will mean, in view of the financial business that must be undertaken when the House re-assembles, that it will be well into the middle of May before we can resume the Committee stage of this Bill. That was what I had in mind when 1 warned hon. Members of the harm that might be done in relation to unemployment. The truth is that all parties have been committed to the general provisions and the principle of this Bill, and the Amendments are, in the main, if not exclusively, Amendments which cover points of administration. I submit that we have given to the Committee and the House a very large portion of the time of this Session for dealing with these matters. I welcome the indications of willingness to assist the Government to get through the Committee stage. If we cannot be assured of getting through the Committee stage and the other stages in addition, before 8.15, or at 8.15 to-morrow, we might as well let the matter rest where it is, and resume the Committee stage again after the holidays. I would, therefore, readily accept the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition, if we could be assured of the general co-operation of the House in getting this Bill through all its House of Commons' stages before the House rises.

May I ask, Mr. Entwistle, whether I am right in assuming that this Bill is a Money Bill, and that, if so, the two stages cannot be taken in one day? That is why the Leader of the Opposition suggested taking the Third Reading on Wednesday.

Even in the case of a Money Bill, a Motion could be put down which would allow of both stages being taken on the same day.

If I am assured that these several stages will be got through prior to the House rising on Wednesday—

The right hon. Gentleman had announced some other business for to-morrow. Do I understand his proposal to be that the other business, including the War Charges (Validity) Bill, would not be proceeded with, and that this would be the only matter taken between the sitting of the House and 8.15?

Yes. We do regard this Bill, for the reason I have stated, as the most urgent of the items on the Government's agenda for the time being, and it will be put down as first Order to-morrow. May I also say, as the reason for intervening, as I did earlier, that I gave a general assurance at Question Time to-day that the House would not be kept longer than about 12 o'clock. It was essential to draw the attention of the House to the position in which the Bill stood.

May I suggest that it may be a blessing in disguise? I understood the Deputy-Leader of the House to say that £5,000,000 was to be floated almost immediately. It would be inadvisable to float even that amount while the large Conversion Loan is on. It would be advisable from the taxpayer's point of view, in spite of unemployment, to postpone this until the middle of May.

May I suggest to the Deputy-Leader of the House for the purpose of completing the Committee stage to-morrow he need not take an undertaking to conclude it at 8.15, but by agreement the Rule might be suspended to-morrow so that the Committee stage could be concluded and every important Amendment discussed.

It seems to be taken for granted that no Amendment will be carried. There are important Amendments, and it is possible that one of these may be carried. I hope the carrying of an Amendment would not mean that the Government are going to drop the Bill. That would, no doubt, necessitate a Report stage, but to deal with that situation a Motion could be put down relating to the Standing Orders so as to permit of the Report stage being taken.

A Motion could be put down to-morrow to take the Report and Third Reading, by consent, on Wednesday before the Adjournment.

I suggest that there should not be an agreement of any kind. The Deputy-Leader of the House has deliberately wasted time to-day on a subject which could easily have been kept over for a month or two without any injury to those people who want railway passes for the Easter holidays.

I ask in all seriousness whether there is any need to have an Easter Recess at all and whether we might put down a Motion to continue sitting through the Easter holidays.

I appeal to the Deputy-Leader of the House to withdraw his statement, and let us go on with the discussion now.

Before we finally decide that question I also appeal to the Deputy-Leader of the House to withdraw his statement made a few moments ago to the effect that the opposition to this Bill was endangering employment. It must be obvious to everyone that his statement, though it may not be what he meant, would lead to the impression that what he intended to say was that the Opposition were increasing unemployment. It is obviously not the case, and I do not think he meant it. Therefore, I would ask him to clear up that point.

I have consulted my Friends sitting round me, and, as far as we are concerned, we should like the Leader of the House to understand that certainly we should put no obstacle in the way of his getting the suspension of the 11 o'clock rule to-morrow, the object being to complete the Committee stage of the Bill in the course of to-morrow's sitting, this, of course, on the understanding that there is no other business proposed to be taken previous to this business in the course of to-morrow's public business.

In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for West Dorset (Major Colfox), the truth is—and I regret to say it—that we have definite evidence from firms that contracts are being delayed or held up because of this Bill not being passed. In view of what I might term the spending which has been urged, it would not serve any useful purpose to continue further with the Committee stage to-night, and, accordingly, I suggest that Progress be now reported.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

Electricity (Supply) Acts

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made toy the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Awre, Coleford, Nailsworth, Newnham, and Westbury-on-Severn, the rural districts of West Dean, East Dean, and united parishes, Wheatenhurst, Dursley, and Stroud, and parts of the rural districts of Thornbury and Lydney, all in the county of Gloucester, and for other purposes, which was presented on the 1st day of April, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Elec- tricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect;of the parishes of townships of East Saltney, Higher Kinnerton, Hope, Llanfynydd, Sealand, and Tryddyn, and part of the parish of Hawarden, in the county of Flint, and for the amendment of the Hawarden Rural District Council Electric Lighting Order, 1914, which was presented on the 28th day of February,1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, with the concurrence of the Secretary for Scotland, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, constituting a joint board consisting of representatives of the county council of the county of Ayr, the provost, magistrates, and councilors of the burgh of Kilmarnock, for the joint exercise of powers under the said Acts, which was presented on the 31st day of March, 1924, be approved."

—[ Mr. Gosling. ]

Conveyancing (Scotland) Amendment Bill

Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-one Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.