House of Commons
Wednesday, April 16, 1924
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
London, Midland and Scottish Railway (Superannuation Fund) Bill,
"to establish a Superannuation Fund for the salaried officers and servants of the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company; and for other purposes," presented, and read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Turkey and Germany (Treaty)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a Treaty has been concluded between the Governments of the Turkish and German Republics; and whether the terms of the Treaty can be communicated to the House of Commons?
It is not usual to lay before Parliament Treaties concluded between third parties. Whether the Treaty now referred to is of so exceptional a character or so directly affecting British interests as to justify a departure from the general practice is a question on which His Majesty's Government cannot form an opinion until they have received the text.
Memel Convention
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Memel Convention, as drafted by the League of Nations, has been accepted by the representatives of Great Britain, France, Italy, Japan and Lithuania on behalf of their Governments; which of these States have so far signed the Convention; whether the Conference of Ambassadors is at present, dealing with the matter and, if so, in what capacity; whether questions understood to have been settled at Geneva are being reopened; and what action His Majesty's Government is taking in the matter?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 7th instant to the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain). His Majesty's Government are doing all they can to expedite the signature of the Convention.
May I have an answer to the fourth part of my question as to whether questions understood to be settled at Geneva are being re-opened?
The only alterations that are being made are drafting alterations in the text.
Legislatures (Foreign Affairs Committees)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the names of the legislatures of other countries which have Foreign Affairs Committees or Commissions; and will he give instructions for a Departmental Report to be prepared and issued to Members of this House giving detailed information as to their formation, duties, and powers?
The hon. Member will find much of the information he requires in White Paper Miscellaneous No. 5 (1912) (Cmd. 6102). Changes may have taken place since that date, and if the hon. Member will specify the countries in which he is particularly interested, I will endeavour to procure for him up-to-date information.
Would the hon. Gentleman kindly supply up-to-date information with regard to the United States and France?
I will endeavour to get that information.
Is it not the fact that both those countries are fully dealt with in the Report referred to?
I think that is so. I doubt if there is any particular change.
Occupied German Territory (Deportations)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the total number of German citizens deported from the occupied territories by the Allied authorities, and the number of those who have been granted permission to return; and whether any action is being taken by His Majesty's Government in this connection?
It is a matter of some difficulty to arrive at exact figures, but His Majesty's Government are endeavouring to obtain them. The influence of His Majesty's Government is being and will continue to be exercised wherever possible to secure the restoration of normal conditions in the occupied territories.
Egypt (British Officials)
10 and 11.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he has any information concerning the discriminating treatment of certain British officials in the service of the Egyptian Government, particularly in the Department of the Egyptian State Railways, whereby their rights, including their grading and emoluments, present and future, are being jeopardised and their contractual engagements endangered; and, if he is not fully informed, will he cause immediate inquiry to be instituted by the British authorities in Egypt, so that he may be in a position to give such instructions as will enable him to ensure that justice shall be done to all British subjects in the employment of the Egyptian Government;
(2) whether he is aware that the question of the regrading of certain British officials in the Department of the Egyptian State Railways, and the injustice of such regrading, has been recognised by the Government Regrading Committee, His Excellency the ex-Minister of Communications, the Finance Committee, the Railway Regrading Committee, the general manager of Egyptian State Railways, the ex-general manager of such railways, the Minister of Finance, and the ex-Minister of Finance, but that the injustice remains, and is likely to be perpetuated; and whether he will see that representations be made to the Egyptian Government on the subject?
With the right hon. Gentleman's permission, I will take together the two questions standing in his name. The attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to the complaints of certain British officials in the Egyptian State Railways and the Postal Administration in connection with the regrading by the Egyptian Government of the various classes of civil servants. His Majesty's Government have no official information on the subject, but I understand that Lord Allenby, who has been asked to furnish a Report, has already made unofficial representations on behalf of these gentlemen.
Royal Navy
Building Programmes (Japan and Great Britain)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many light cruisers, destroyers, and submarines have been laid down since the Washington Conference by Japan and Great Britain, respectively?
Since the Washington Treaty was signed, Great Britain has laid down Submarine "O.1" and Japan, as far as is known, has laid down 6 light cruisers, 17 destroyers and 13 submarines.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether any of the following light cruisers have been laid down in Japan. "Kinu-gasa," "Kako," "Aoha," "Myoko," and "Nachi"; and whether he can give any information as to their armament, displacement, and horse power?
Of the vessels named, the "Kako" only has so far been laid down. She was laid down early in 1923. In addition the "Furutaka," of the same class as the "Kako," was laid down in December, 1922. I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the details which are given in the Return of Fleets (British Empire and Foreign Countries), (White Paper No. 41).
Is is not a fact that the Japanese building programme has been retarded by 12 months, and has that consideration applied?
— Displacement. Horse Power. Armament. "Furutaka" … … 7,100 tons 100,000 6–8; 3–12 pdr. AA 21". 4T.(double). "Kako" … … "Kinugasa" … … "Aoba" … … "Nachi" … … 10,000 tons Not known Not Known. "Myoko" … … 2 others … …
Clasps (Issue)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if it will be possible to resume the issue of clasps at an early date to the Fleet; and, if not, whether permission can be given to officers and men to provide the clasps to which they may be entitled at their own expense?
No issue of clasps to the Fleet has yet been made, and I regret that I am not in a position to add anything to the reply given on the subject to the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Sir B. Falle) on 14th March, 1923. The grant of permission to officers and men to provide the clasps at their own expense is not thought desirable.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the Falklands clasp has been refused to the ship's company of H.M.S. "Canopus"; on what grounds this decision was arrived at; and whether he will reconsider this decision?
This question is under consideration.
Light Oruisees (Armament)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many modern light cruisers are afloat, British and foreign, armed with guns of 8-inch calibre or 7·5-inch calibre; and whether he can state the speed, armament, and approximate cost of the proposed new British cruisers?
The reply I have just given refers only to those vessels which have been laid down.
The details are as follow:
No British or foreign light cruisers afloat have 8-in. guns. Two completed British light cruisers and two completing have 7.5-in. guns. No foreign light cruisers have guns of this calibre. With regard to the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply of the 27th February
When will my hon. Friend be able to publish the speed, armament, and approximte cost of these new cruisers of which the House has approved?
I must have notice of that question.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in pre-war days we were always given this information on the Estimates? Why cannot we have it now?
It has never been, and is not, the practice to publish in the Navy Estimates particulars of ships until the year in which they are completed. These ships are not yet completed.
I think my hon. Friend is misinformed. The information was given in the present Navy Estimates of ships laid down, long before they are completed, and it always has been given.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the tenders for the new cruisers and supplementary craft have yet been examined and decided upon; and, if so, what proportion of the orders has been apportioned to the Tyne?
The reply to the first part of the question is No, Sir; the second part, therefore, does not arise.
Can the hon. Member give me any indication as to when the decision will be arrived at?
I hope within a fortnight.
Will these tenders be referred to the costs of building ships in the dockyards, and if they are greater, will they be subjected to tender?
This has no relation to ships built in the dockyards. It simply has regard to tenders submitted from contract firms.
Royal Hospital School for Children
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty are offering a premium to architects for designs for a new naval school for 1,100 boys at Holbrooke, Ipswich; and whether the buildings, landing slips, pontoon, workshops, hospital, lecture halls, dormitories, recreation rooms, outdoor mast and rigging, and other buildings and equipment, together with the 60 acres of land which formerly was used by the 500 cadets at Osborne, can be enlarged and utilised for this purpose?
As the reply is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Gentleman's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can my hon. Friend state now whether this proposal is to be carried out, and, if it is, cannot he reconsider it, seeing the immense cost that would be entailed?
Might I have your protection, Mr. Speaker, in this matter? I asked a very simple question, and a very short reply would suffice. The Admiralty can escape—I do not say they are trying to escape—proper questions in this House by saying they will publish the reply. Can I be informed whether they are proposing to complete this school?
I can tell the hon. and gallant Member that it has been decided to remove the Royal Hospital School for Children—but perhaps I had better give the whole reply.
It has been decided to remove the Royal Hospital School for Children of petty officers and men of the Royal Navy, which is maintained out of the charitable funds of Greenwich Hospital, from its present cramped quarters at Greenwich to Holbrooke, where an estate of 950 acres has been presented to the trustees of Greenwich Hospital by the munificence of Mr. Gifford S. Reade. The cost of the new school will be borne by Greenwich Hospital. As regards the use of the Osborne site, it may be remembered that, as the result of experience, its suitability for a large school was so doubtful that the House of Commons were informed on 19th October, 1917, that the Admiralty were of opinion that if a new naval college were built, it should be on an entirely new site. The Royal Hospital School is of quite a different character and requires a different lay-out, whilst its numbers are more than three times as great as those to which it was eventually found necessary to restrict Osborne in order to avoid ill-health. Many of the Osborne buildings are only semi-permanent, and would need replacement, and having regard to the new buildings and other extensions that would be necessary, it is at least doubtful whether any economy whatever would have been effected by using the Osborne site.
Dependants' Pensions
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has yet come to any decision regarding the question of awarding pensions to the dependants of sailors who lose their lives in the service of the Royal Navy, when it can be proved that such sailors are making regular allowances to their dependants?
The question is still under consideration, but as I informed my hon. Friend on the 27th February last, other Departments are involved. The Admiralty is in communication with these Departments, and every effort will be made to expedite a decision.
Is the position that the Admiralty only grant these pensions where the deceased has made allotments through the Admiralty, and in no other cases?
No, that is not the case.
Birching
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will consider the advisability of taking steps to abolish the practice of flogging boys for disciplinary purposes in the Royal Navy?
It is not proposed to abolish the punishment of birching for boys convicted by court martial of certain serious offences.
May I ask the hon. Member if he will not take the advice of an eminent psychologist, someone who has had some experience in dealing with boys, and, say, a London stipendiary magistrate, before he continues this practice?
Will the hon. Gentleman also inquire of the welfare committees of the lower deck, to see whether there is any feeling whatever there against the birching of boys?
As soon as I went to the Admiralty, I made special inquiries into this matter, and I found that there have been only six cases since 1917, all of them for unnatural sexual offences. I took the trouble to follow up the cases, and I found that in every case those who were submitted to birching have made good, but in cases of punishment by imprisonment some may have, I am sorry to say, gone to the bad. On the whole, in spite of my own predilections against birching, I have come to think that it would not be an advantage to abolish it.
Royal Dockyards
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, with a view to assuring regular employment in the Royal dockyards, he has invited the War Office and the Air Ministry, or any other Government Departments, to undertake any of their necessary construction in the Royal dockyards; and, if not, whether he will do so?
The other Departments of State are well aware of such facilities for doing work for them on repayment terms as exist in the Royal dockyards, and any requests received from them from time to time are given all possible consideration by the Admiralty.
Cookery Officers
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, seeing that the duties of cookery officers, supply officers, and warrant writers are not interchangeable, and that it has been the practice of the Admiralty hitherto to appoint cookery officers to ships on which there is general messing, he can explain why this system has been departed from on His Majesty's ships "Royal Oak," "Eagle," and "Hermes "; and whether, in view of the very responsible duties thrown upon the cookery staff, he will see that cookery officers are appointed in order to achieve efficient and harmonious working?
There is no intention of appointing warrant instructors-in-cookery in the ships referred to. The policy now in force is to have one warrant officer of this branch in each of the principal squadrons in which general messing is in force.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great feeling in this matter?
I am not aware that there is very great feeling.
Recruiting Personnel
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many officers and men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines are employed on recruiting duties, and the total emoluments received by these officers, showing what sums are payable in the case of each rank in respect of pay and pension, respectively, and the principles upon which these officers are selected; and whether due regard is paid in the process of selection to the financial position of those officers who are compelled to supplement the smallness of their pension by additional work.
As the reply is somewhat long, and contains many figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The reply is as follows:
The following number of officers and men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines are employed on recruiting duties:
Officers, Active List … 4 Officers, Retired List … 10 Active Service ratings … 2 Pensioners … 45
Rank. Salary per annum. Retired pay per annum. £ £ s. 1 Commander, R.N. 325 166 10 1 Lieutenant, R.N. 325 240 0 1 Lieut.-Colonel, R.M. 375 500 0 1 Major, R.M 325 360 0 1 Captain, R.M. 325 292 0 3 Surgeon-Captains, R.N. 200 600 0 1 Surgeon-Commander, R.N 200 600 0
British Army
Ordnance Department, Bull Point and Devonport
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the labourers of the Royal Army Ordnance Department at Bull Point and Devonport have not, up to the present date, been paid the increase of 2s. per week given to Admiralty labourers from the 10th February last; and whether it is intended that these labourers shall receive the weekly increase with the others?
I have been asked to reply. Instructions have recently been issued by the War Office authorising certain increases of pay to labourers of the Royal Army Ordnance Department at Bull Point and Devonport on the lines of the increases given to labourers employed under the Admiralty at these stations.
Will this be retrospective to 7th February, and not to 10th February, as stabed in the question?
Yes; the answer indicates that.
Pay
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet made any recommendation to the Cabinet as to the effect of the Report of the Anderson Committee on the pay of the officers or men in the Army; and whether the House will be allowed to discuss1 any proposed changes?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The matter is still under consideration. The last part of the question is hypothetical, but, as the hon. and gallant Member is aware, discussion of the pay of the Army is in order on Army Estimates.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister recently stated that the Labour party would oppose uncompromisingly any proposal to reduce the pay of the Fighting Services? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]
I am not aware that the Prime Minister promised any such thing.
If I send my hon. Friend a copy of the Prime Minister's letter, will he take it into consideration?
Woolwich (Dismissals)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can now make a statement concerning the dismissals contemplated by the War Office of men employed at the Cambridge Barracks, Woolwich?
I am unable to add anything at present to the statement which I made on the 10th instant in reply to a question addressed to me by the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Snell).
Can my hon. Friend say, in view of the very large number of men involved—I think over 100—and now under notice of dismissal, that they can rely that they will have continuity in their employment, at any rate for some reasonable time, and that there is no prospect of their immediate dismissal?
As to the number of men, the number is something like 30. I am not prepared to say that the notices will be withdrawn, but I can say that their dismissal in the immediate future is not intended.
Unemployment
Insurance Fund
asked the Minister of Labour what is the present rate of interest charged on the debt of the Unemployment Insurance Fund?
On 3rd April the debt on the Unemployment Fund was £10,030,000, carrying interest as to £5,240,000 at 5 per cent., and £4,790,000 at 4⅞ per cent.
Are these rates not in excess of those at which the Government can raise money for short terms, and is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the Fund is obtaining the best terms possible?
I am perfectly satisfied that the full rate of interest is being paid on these loans, and as for the other matter, I cannot give an answer.
Necessitous Areas
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that on 1st January, 1923, the total numbers in receipt of Poor Law relief in the Bedwellty area was 15,304; that 10,020 of this number were relieved on account of unemployment; that this volume of unemployed has put a burden upon the ratepayers of this area; and what steps he proposes to take to relieve Bedwellty and other necessitous areas of the heavy taxation imposed upon them by unemployment during the last three years?
I am glad to say that the returns for the 1st January, 1924, indicate a marked improvement upon the figures for 1923, quoted by my hon. Friend. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the Deputy-Leader of the House on the 27th March last to the hon. Member for Cleveland (Sir C. Starmer) and to the answer which I have given to-day to the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Thomson).
Tubercle Infected Milk
asked the Minister of Health whether he has recently received representations from the Tottenham Urban District Council upon the inadequacy of existing legislation to deal with the menace to public health caused by tubercle infected milk, and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is "Yes." As regards the second part, I would refer to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Ealing Division (Sir H. Nield) on the 19th ultimo.
Midwives
asked the Minister of Health whether his predecessor in June of last year received a memorandum from the Central Midwives Board urging that the name of the person actually conducting the delivery of a child should be inserted in the form prescribed under the Notification of Births Act; and whether an alteration will be made in the form of notification of births accordingly?
The answer to the-first part of the question is "Yes." This, suggestion will be considered in connection with any proposed legislation-amending the Notification of Births Acts or the Midwives' Acts.
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the maternal mortality rate for England and Wales during the last 20 years has been maintained at or about four per thousand births, but that in midwives' cases it is under two per thousand; and whether, in view of the dangers arising from unqualified persons attending women in childbirth, he will introduce or support a Bill providing that no uncertified woman shall attend women in childbirth except in an emergency or under the personal direction and in the presence of a registered medical practitioner?
As regard the first part of the question, the facts are as stated in regard to the maternal mortality rate for all cases, but I have no complete information as to midwives' cases. The suggestion in the second part of the question will receive consideration in connection with any proposed legislation amending the Midwives Act.
In view of the fact that the maternal mortality rate is very high and has shown no decline during the past 20 years, can the right hon. Gentleman hold out some prospect of legislation this year, inasmuch as the legislation will be non-contentious and very valuable?
I will consider the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member, but I cannot hold hold out much hope of fresh legislation.
Would it help at all if a private Member's Bill
Premiums received. Payments for death benefits. Year covered. £ £ Collecting Societies 3,825,371 1,849,055 1921 Burial Societies 421,562 174,499 1922 Friendly Societies (other than Burial Societies). * 417,633 1922 Orders and Branches registered under the Friendly Societies Act. * 539,733 1920 Registered Trade Unions * 317,633 1922 * Particulars of the separate contributions or the parts of the contributions allocable to death benefit are nor available. Particulars of the separate contributions or the parts of the contributions allocable to death benefit are nor available.
— Premiums received. Claims paid on death. Year covered. Industrial Assurance Companies … £31,580,117 £9,230,278 1922
As regards collecting societies and industrial assurance companies, the figures relating to premiums include sums in respect of endowment and endowment assurances.
Betting
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the grave condition of affairs revealed by the Report of the Select Committee on Betting, notably the unsatisfactory state of the existing laws dealing with this subject, he will consider the advisability of setting up another Select Committee to consider the question of betting and gambling and
were introduced? Would the Government give it facilities?
That is not a matter on which I can express any opinion.
Burial Insurance
asked the Minister of Health the approximate amount of premiums paid for burial insurance in any one year, and the amount of funeral benefit received?
As the reply is rather long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The figures are as follow:
to report upon the steps which should be taken to safeguard the community against this growing evil?
This is a subject which His Majesty's Government view with concern. Its consideration, however, must lie over for the moment, on account of the pressure of other work.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have regard to the facts which arose in Debate in the other House, and will he, after Easter, be prepared to receive a deputation from moral and religious interests concerned?
Yes, I shall be very glad to receive a deputation. As I say, we regard this question with considerable concern. It is a question of time and opportunity.
Have the Government ruled out the possibility of raising revenue for the nation from this source?
The Government quite agree with the conclusion of the Committee.
State Pensions
asked the Prime Minister if, in his promised Bill for relief of Old Age Pensions, he proposes to restore to all Government pensions their pre-War purchasing power?
I fear that I cannot undertake to give details as to the nature of the Government's proposals before their introduction.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to give a date on which this promised Bill is likely to be introduced, in view of the importance of the subject?
I have repeatedly stated that we propose to introduce it as soon after Easter as possible.
Housing
Rural Accommodation
asked the Minister of Health if he will give any detailed information as to the condition of the houses at present occupied by agricultural and rural workers, and as to the additional accommodation required to meet the needs of these workers in each area; and, if not, is he prepared to call for reports from the local public health officers on these conditions and needs?
As the reply is rather long, perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this information about rural England is really urgent, if the problem is to be properly tackled?
I am quite aware of that, and will have the information circulated to-day in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply:
Information as to houses occupied by the particular classes of workers referred to is not available, and the value of a return, if obtained, would not be commensurate with the labour and expense involved in its compilation. According to the reports of medical officers of health for rural districts, of 190,410 houses inspected in such districts during 1922 for housing defects 4,639 were found to be unfit for human habitation and 30,420 were not in all respects reasonably fit. During the year 1922 27,547 houses were rendered fit in consequence of informal action by the rural district councils, and defects were remedied under statutory powers in 23,764 houses. According to the survey made in 1919, 83,659 houses were required during the following three years in rural districts to meet unsatisfied demands. Since that date 53,929 houses have been erected with State assistance, and a further 8,077 are in course of construction. Complete information as to the number of houses erected without State aid is not available, but during the six months ending 30th September last 10,659 houses were erected by private enterprise without assistance, and a further 13,939 were in course of construction at that date.
Trustee Savings Banks (Surplus Deposits)
asked the Minister of Health if he is prepared to introduce the necessary legislation to permit of the surplus deposits of trustee savings (banks, at present obtained at 2¾ per cent. per annum by the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, being made available for house building, and so do much to reduce the annual cost of upkeep of houses built in the future?
The answer is in the negative. Trustee savings bank deposits are repayable on demand, and carry a rats of interest appropriate to that circumstance. This rate necessarily has no relation to the rate at which money can be lent for long term investment, such as the building of houses.
Evictions
asked the Minister of Health what administrative action he proposes to take to secure that Poor Law authorities in England and Scotland shall give such relief as may be necessary to protect unemployed tenants from eviction?
I have under consideration the issue of a circular to the boards of guardians in England and Wales. As regards the Scottish Poor Law authorities, I must refer the hon. Member to the Secretary for Scotland.
asked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to give the House any detailed information as to orders for possession of houses or warrants for ejectment applied for and granted by Courts of Summary Jurisdiction since August, 1923; and if such information will also be made available for the years 1920, 1921, and 1922?
I will send the hon. Member detailed information which I have received with regard to 18 large cities and boroughs. As regards the last part of the question, I can only refer to the answer given him by the Undersecretary of State on Monday last.
Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Home Office to supplement this information still further?
Anything I can contribute towards getting the utmost information shall be done.
Sudbury (Non-Delivery of Bricks)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that builders in Sudbury, Suffolk, have been waiting for truckloads of bricks from Peterborough, which have been diverted to Wembley by Government orders, causing delay in the erection of houses; and1 whether he will put a stop to this?
I am not aware that the facts are as stated by the hon. Member, but I will make inquiry.
I can give the right hon. Gentleman information.
I shall be glad to receive it.
Building Statistics
asked the Minister of Health how many working-class houses were completed in each of the years 1921, 1922, and 1923 under the Addison scheme and under the Chamberlain scheme, respectively; and what was the total built by all agencies?
The numbers of houses completed during the years 1921, 1922 and 1923 under the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919, were 68,255, 74,769 and 3 5,679 respectively. Under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, 18,414 houses were completed in 1921, and 14,230 in 1922. Under the Housing, etc. Act, 1923, 3,506 houses were completed during 1923. Information as to the number of houses erected without State assistance during the three years in question is not available, but according to returns obtained from local authorities in England and Wales as to building by private enterprise without assistance from public funds, it is estimated that over 39,000 houses of not more than £26 rateable value in the provinces, and £35 in the Metropolitan Police districts, were-completed during the year ended 30th September, 1923. Some of these houses-are no doubt larger than those provided under the Act of 1923.
Bricklaying
asked the Minister of Health whether ho is aware that, in the Report on a Housing Programme [Cmd. 2104], the estimate of the labour required is based on a bricklayer laying 300 bricks a day, whereas it has recently been estimated that the average number laid by each bricklayer in the Manchester housing contract was 600 daily; and is he prepared to recommend acceptance for 15 years of a scheme based on this output?
I am not aware that the estimate contained in the Report referred to is based on a bricklayer laying 300 bricks a day, and I do not know on what the hon. Member is basing his statement. He will, of course, be aware that a bricklayer performs other duties besides the actual laying of bricks.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many leading experts think that a step towards the solution of the housing problem would be the intro- duction of some method of payment by results, and would he use his influence in that direction?
I have had a variety of opinions on the question of house building, and I know there is a variety of difficulties in the way.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to what statistics the Building Committee has based the number of bricks per day in the Report?
I have no information which would enable me to discuss that particular Report.
Will the right hon. Gentleman investigate the figures of America?
I would be very pleased to have any figures from America that would help. In the meantime, my hands are full dealing with the figures I have.
Is it not a fact in this country it would be possible to average 600 bricks a day for foundation and such work, but when you come to corner work, such as is necessary in English houses, it cannot be done at more than 200 a day?
Does this discussion not show that brick-building is obsolete?
If I may express an opinion, it indicates that we in this House know less about laying bricks than do people outside.
Haddingtonshire
asked the Secretary for Scotland why payments due by the Scottish Board of Health on the 112 houses erected under the Haddingtonshire County Council housing schemes at Pencaitland, Ormiston, Macmerry, East Saltoun, Gladsmuir, and Gilchriston have been withheld; if he is aware that the said houses, on the average, have been occupied during the past two years; and will he undertake to inquire into the matter and have all warranted payments made at once?
I am informed that no payments are due by the Scottish Board of Health in respect of the housing schemes referred to. Payments to contractors for these schemes fall to be made by the local authorities concerned. Steps are being taken with a view to ensuring that all warranted payments are made without delay.
British Empire Exhibition
Public Health
asked the Minister of Health whether he has now completed his inquiries as regards the provision of free lavatory accommodation for the public at the British Empire Exhibition; whether he will compel the Exhibition authorities to provide some free provision for the thousands of the public who will pay for entering this exhibition; whether the contractor, who obtained the contract to provide conveniences for payment only, has had it varied or cancelled; and can he make any general statement on the subject?
I am informed that the arrangements are that urinals will be provided free of charge, and that a charge of one penny will be made for the use of water-closets.
Police Pensioners
asked the Home Secretary whether police pensioners are to be employed in any capacity at the Wembley Exhibition; if so, what is the nature of the duties to be performed; and through what agency or agencies will their services be obtained?
I understand that a number of police pensioners are being employed as attendants, etc, but I have no official information on the subject.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that, in cases in which police pensioners are engaged, those police pensioners who are only in receipt of the lower scale, and especially those who were called upon to re-join, who were retained in the Service, and yet are receiving only the pre-War rate of pension, shall have preference over men who are in receipt of larger pensions?
I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.
Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a statement in the Press this morning with regard to a man being asked to work at the Wembley Exhibition 83½ hours for £1 a week, and a woman for 15s.?
Will the hon. Gentleman hasten on the Bill, in order that these people may not be under the necessity of earning money in addition to their pensions?
That does not arise here.
Casual Wards (Diet)
asked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied that the diet allowed to inmates of casual wards is sufficient for the maintenance of health?
I am advised that the diet is sufficient for the purpose for which it is intended, but certain suggestions for making it more palatable are under consideration, and I hope for some improvement.
Poor Law (Medical Relief)
asked the Minister of Health if he will make inquiries as to whether any boards of guardians demand that applicants for medical relief are compelled to go to a private practitioner before a medical order is granted?
I do not think that any board of guardians would impose such a requirement upon applicants for medical relief, but I am making inquiries as to a case in which an officer of a board of guardians is reported to have made a demand of this nature.
Closed Factories (Rate Exemption)
asked the Minister of Health if he has seen a copy of the resolution passed by the Abertillery Urban District Council condemning the exemption of closed factories and premises from paying local rates as unfair, and that legislation should be introduced repealing Section 211, Sub-section (2), of the Public Health Act, 1875; and is he prepared at an early date to introduce legislation dealing with this question?
I have seen the resolution referred to, but I cannot promise to introduce legislation on the subject at an early date.
Criminal Law (Consolidation)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will advise the setting up of a Royal Commission to inquire into and prepare draft Bills with respect to the consolidation of the Criminal Law of England and Wales, or, alternatively, to prepare a draft criminal code which shall amend as well as consolidate the Criminal Law of England and Wales?
I have been asked to re pry. I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion
Hyde Park (Taxi-Cabs)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that, since taxi-cabs have been allowed access to Hyde Park, serious congestion of traffic takes place at Hyde Park Corner, which was never designed to take such a flow of traffic; that it is now necessary to employ extra police to control the traffic, and that while there are two entrances, there is only one exit, in each case only sufficient for one line of traffic; and whether, in view of the fact, he proposes to take any steps to improve matters either by redesigning the entrances and exits or by the construction of a traffic subway under Piccadilly?
The question of the traffic at Hyde Park Corner is receiving the attention of my Department and of the police, but I am not at present in a position to say in what manner the congestion can best be met.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give serious attention to this, in view of the very much greater congestion which undoubtedly takes place at this point during the summer—will he do something to accelerate a decision?
The matter, as I have said, is under consideration.
I will put a question down again after Easter.
Scotland
Western Isles (Road Reconstruction)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received an application from the crofters of Aird, Benbecula, in the Western Isles, for a grant to reconstruct a township road; and, in view of the fact that the said road is necessary to the existence of the township, whether he will sanction the necessary grant?
I am informed that the Board of Agriculture have recently received an application from the district committee for a grant for reconstruction of the road referred to, and that consideration of the application awaits the receipt of information for which the Board have asked the committee relating to the estimated cost of the work and the proposed arrangements for future maintenance of the road.
Lochboisdale Pier
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that Lochboisdale Pier will be closed and barricaded on the 15th instant, when there will be no means of landing passengers or foodstuffs; and, as immediate action is necessary to prevent distress and starvation of the people dependent on the pier, what action has he taken to avert this crisis?
I am aware that the pier has been closed. I am endeavouring to make arrangements with the proprietress of the pier which will permit of its continued use.
Seed Oats and Potatoes, Western Isles
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that it is a condition of the distribution of seed oats and seed potatoes in the Western Isles that recipients must be entered on the poor roll; and whether, in view of the fact that this measure was introduced to relieve the hardship caused by an abnormal period of adverse circumstances, and in view of the effects of such a condition, he will take such steps as will enable the people of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, who are only temporarily destitute, to accept the necessary seeds without being registered by the parochial authorities as paupers?
No such condition as that stated by the hon. Member has been made by the Government. The other parts of the question do not, therefore,
Agricultural Wages, Wiltshire
asked the Minister of Agriculture the names of the districts in Wiltshire where agricultural workers are paid the low wage of £l a week?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will publish a list of those farmers in Wiltshire who are paying their labourers a wage of only 20s. a week?
To disclose the names of the individual farmers whose workers are in receipt of these low wages would obviously embarrass the persons concerned, and my right hon. Friend regrets that he does not see his way to give particulars of those cases which have come to his notice. To disclose the districts might equally lead to the embarrassment of the workers.
It is clear that the statement or information the hon. Gentleman has just given to the House was based on information received from a private individual. In justice to the farmers in Wiltshire, does the hon. Gentleman not think he ought to substantiate the evidence?
Are there any districts where this low rate of wages is now current?
I can only add that the Minister does not really feel himself in a position to disclose the names or sources of information. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]
Transport
Road Maintenance, Warwickshire
asked the Minister of Transport what was the total amount paid in the years 1921–22, 1922–23, and 1923–24 to the administrative county of Warwick for the maintenance of class 1 and 2 roads, respectively, and the mileage for which such grants were made?
The answer to this question
ADMINISTRATIVE COUNTY OF WARWICK. The Grants made from the Road Fund towards the ordinary maintenance and improvement of Class I and Class II roads and mileage of these roads are set out below. (These figures do not include grants made cowards the cost of special widenings and improvements.) Class I. Class II — Mileage Grants. Mileage. Grants. £ £ Financial Year 1921–22. Main Roads … … … 349 94,723 113 7,415 District Roads … … … 18 4,841 59 4,200 Total … … … 367 99,564 172 11,615 Financial Year 1922–23. Main Roads … … … 349 125,406 113 9,340 District Roads … … … 18 10,991 61 8,508 Total … … … 367 136,397 174 17,848 Financial Year 1923–24 Main Roads … … … 357 111,435 115 12,154 District Roads … … … 13 3,267 59 5,817 Total … … … 370 114,702 174 17,971
Workmen's Trains
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the inconvenience caused to many workers by the scarcity of facilities for travelling by workmen's trains, he will approach the railway companies with a view to securing increased facilities for holders of workmen's tickets?
I have not received any complaints recently on the insufficiency of workmen's trains, but I shall be glad to look into any particular cases which my hon. Friend may have in mind.
Is the Minister of Transport aware that on the London and North-Eastern Railway he will regularly see over 26 to 28 persons being carried in a compartment that should only hold 12, and at the same time the first-class carriages frequently have nobody in at all; and will the Minister consider the advisability of opening the first-class carriages to accommodate those people
contains a number of figures, and, with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The particulars are as follow:
who cannot find room in the other carriages?
If my hon. Friend will give me specific cases, I will go right into them.
You can see them regularly every morning.
Sorting Sidings, Ede Hill
asked the Minister of Transport whether he will have inquiries made as to the dangerous working character of No. 3 points extra sidings, Ede Hill Sorting Sidings, London, Midland and Scottish Railway, and ascertain how the railway company have dealt with applications of the railwaymen concerned to obtain security against the dangers which at present exist?
If my hon. Friend will be good enough to arrange to furnish me with particulars of the representations to which he refers, I will see that immediate inquiry is made into the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to visit the particular place, in order to satisfy himself of its dangerous character?
If the hon. Member will put my finger on the spot, I will do whatever is necessary.
Budget
Death Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered proposals to reduce the National Debt by a large increase upon Death Duties on estates over £5,000, the said increase being ear-marked for debt reduction only; and if he can make any statement upon the subject?
I regret that I am unable to anticipate the Budget statement.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this proposal for a capital levy has been made by distinguished representatives of the benches opposite, and is being advanced regularly and with great force in the columns of the London "Times," and will he take steps to get this through as a non-contentious Measure?
The position is that this gentleman is no longer a Member of the House, but I have read the various letters he has written, and all I can say is that they will be considered by my right hon. Friend and others. Beyond that I cannot go to-day.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that any such proposals would obviously increase unemployment in this country?
Would the Financial Secretary explore the possibility of this being a non-contentious matter, in view of the articles appearing in an obviously one-sided journal.
Revenue and Expenditure Return
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can explain the reason of the delay in issuing the Return of the revenue contributed by, and the expenditure spent upon, England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, for the year 1921–22?
In the new circumstances in Ireland the Return is no longer appropriate. If my hon. Friend desires to have approximate figures for Scotland, and will put down an unstarred question I shall be glad to give him such information as is available, though it will take some time and labour to collect.
Is it proposed to stop the annual publication of these Returns as far as England and Scotland are concerned?
I should like notice of that question, because there is a difficulty due to the change in Ireland. I will look into this matter, and will get my hon. Friend the particulars if he press for them.
Ex-Service Men (Surplus Stores Department)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the sanction of the Joint Substitution Board has been obtained for the recent or pending transfer of a temporary non-ex-service employé from the Surplus Stores Department to the Department of the Treasury Solicitor; whether he is satisfied that the continued employment of this non-service official is essential in the interests of the public service; and, if not, will he take steps to substitute him by an ex-service man at the earliest possible moment?
The temporary employé in question possesses the necessary technical knowledge for the work required to be done in the Department of the Treasury Solicitor. Application has been made by that Department to the Joint Substitution Board, and no candidate possessing the necessary qualifications has yet been forthcoming. Should a suitable candidate be found, his claims will of course be given the most careful consideration. The temporary employé in question, who has been acting hitherto as liaison officer between the Surplus Stores Department and Treasury Solicitor, will continue to discharge his duties in connection with the Surplus Stores Department of the Treasury.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is not the policy of his Department to give a preference to all soldier ex-service men wherever possible?
Yes, certainly; that is being done. As my hon. and gallant Friend will observe, we have applied to the Joint Substitution Board for an ex-service man, and they have not been able to find us one with the necessary technical qualifications.
Slades Green Explosion
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the Report on the Slades Green disaster (Command Paper 2099), in which it is stated on page 10 that Messrs. Villa, Gilbert and Company were acting as agents of the Disposal Board, the Treasury will assume all responsibility for compensation to the relatives and dependants of the victims?
The answer is in the negative. It is understood that the liability of the contractors for compensation is covered by insurance.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the relatives of these girls are being offered £15 in compensation when the funeral expenses amount to £20, and the only alternative to that is to go to Court?
As I understand the position it is that if the liability is covered by insurance, the question is one between the relatives and the contractors.
Will the Financial Secretary see that the Disposal Board, before it enters into contracts with these different people, satisfies itself that they are financially sound, and able to carry out their obligations?
I am not sure that that question arises, but I should think that that is the practice.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Disposal Board were responsible for the methods adopted at Slades Green; if so, why their agents, Messrs. Villa, Gilbert, and Company, were allowed to extract gunpowder from Verey lights without dumping it immediately in water and insisting upon the general practice of wet floors and wet benches; and if the process of dry extraction of gunpowder in breaking down ammunition has been or is carried out in any other establishment under the Disposal Board, whether under the Explosives Act or not?
I would refer my hon. Friend to Command Paper No. 2099, which contains the Report of the Chief Inspector of Explosives and the Senior Engineering Inspector of Factories (Home Office) on the explosion at Slades Green. The methods adopted by the contractors were laid down by the Disposal and Liquidation Commission, and the work was carried out under the supervision of an expert officer of that Department. My hon. Friend will observe from the Report of the Home Office experts referred to that every reasonable precaution was in fact taken to prevent accident. Suggestions, which will be carefully noted, were also made in the Report for preventing a recurrence of such accidents. As regards the last part of the question, dry extraction of gunpowder has been carried out in the past under the Disposal Commission without accident. No work of this kind is being done by the Department at present.
In view of the fact that Command Paper 2099 makes most specific mention of the former existing practice in every previous factory of wet benches and wet floors, and of the general practice of damping down floating gunpowder, and of the responsibility of the Government for issuing this Command Paper, will the Financial Secretary consider its revision in view of the grave issues involved?
I indicated yesterday that the Whole House and the country deplored this accident. We have had an inquiry, and the Report has been issued, but I entirely agree that the Report raises issues that any Government will have to consider. I have no doubt whatever that the recommendations in the Report will be considered, and that every step will be taken to prevent accidents of this kind recurring in the future.
Will the hon. Gentleman give us the name of this inspector?
I cannot do that offhand, but it was the Chief Inspector of Explosives and another inspector, and their names are contained in Command Paper 2099.
Irish Free State (Proportional Representation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any Report has been made to the Government on the working and results of the last election in Ireland for the Irish Free State under the proportional election system; and whether, in view of the number of Members' Bills before the House dealing with electoral reform, he can have any such Report circulated as a White Paper during the Easter holidays?
The answer to both parts of this question is in the negative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman try to get a Report from the Irish Parliament on proportional representation, seeing that the Debate will shortly come on?
Certainly.
Nairobi (Beershops)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the municipality of Nairobi has recently authorised the opening of beershops in two native locations; whether he is aware that the European residents there are generally opposed to this step as calculated to demoralise the native population; and whether it is now the policy of the Colonial Office to provide extended drinking facilities for natives?
The manufacture and sale of native liquor in Nairobi was taken over by the municipality in January, 1922. I am not aware that the European residents are generally opposed to municipal control, but the Governor has been asked for a Report on the working of the municipal monopoly. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the carrying out in this Colony of the recommendation in the Covenant of the League of Nations prohibiting the sale of liquor to the natives?
Before the right hon. Gentleman replies—
Answer!
The hon. Member is quite entitled to put his question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no suck Article in the Covenant of the League of Nations, that what he is now suggesting is quite untrue and most misleading, and will he give an undertaking that he will not interfere with the liberties of these people?
I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Member is entitled to say that my reference is "quite untrue"?
I repeat it.
I certainly deprecate the use of the word "untrue." It would be better to say "inaccurate."
Then I will say "inaccurate."
It appears quite unnecessary for me to enter into this discussion.
Is this not another instance of the perils coming from self-determination?
Is the hon. Member aware that this beer, as sold in those shops, replaces the Kaffir beer, which is brewed by the natives themselves, and is a very much better article?
I have not tasted it.
If the principle of the Covenant of the League of Nations is applied to mandated territories, does not my right hon. Friend think the same principle should apply to our own Colonies?
Canadian Visitors (Passports)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, especially in view of the large number of Canadians coming to Wembley Exhibition this year, he will consider the cancellation of Regulations which require Canadians to obtain passports before they are allowed to enter this country?
I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the question put by the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) on Monday last.
Does that mean that the Regulations have been cancelled?
I have said in the reply referred to that discussion took place between the British Government and the Canadian Government, and that it was not feasible to do away with these passports.
Explosives (Disposal)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that large quantities of high explosives sold by the Disposal Board are being broken down in different parts of the country, and in some cases by firms who have no previous experience in that class of dangerous work; whether he will state what steps his Department is taking to ensure the safety of the employés engaged in this class of work; and whether he will consider the desirability of instituting an inquiry into the safety arrangements existing at such factories?
No, Sir. I am informed that all the high explosives sold by the Disposal Board in Great Britain have been already broken down, with the exception of certain pyrotechnic material at Slades Green. No work has been done upon this material since the recent accident, and the question of its future disposal is under consideration at preent.
Young Persons (Hours of Labour)
asked the Home Secretary if he is prepared to introduce legislation with a view to reducing the working week of young persons, which at present stands at 72 hours?
I do not know what class of employment my hon. Friend has in mind. If he is referring to shops, the weekly limit fixed for young persons by the Shops Act, 1912, is 74 hours, including meal times. This limit ought certainly to be revised when the Shops Acts are amended, but, as indicated in replies to previous questions on this subject, I can hold out no hope of such legislation this Session.
Summer Time
asked the Home Secretary if he will lay Papers relating to the Conference between Great Britain, Belgium, France and Holland, at which an agreement was arrived at regarding summer time?
I do not think that by laying such Papers as there are I should be adding materially to the information already in the possession of this House.
Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House who the representatives were who concluded this arrangement, which I presume was not a secret treaty?
I should like notice of that question.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what reason there is, if any, for our regulating our clocks by those of any foreign country, and, if there is any reason, why we should not bring into account the standard time of the United States?
This was the subject of the Debate last Friday.
Disturbance (Silvertown)
The following question stood in the name of Mr. W. TH0RNE:
104. To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that on Friday, the 11th instant, at about 1.40 p.m., a number of policemen made an attack upon a large number of men and women who were on strike at Messrs. Tate's sugar factory, Silvertown, and that a constable of the K Division, No. 741, used violence towards a Mr. Jolly, one of the men in the dispute, and caused serious injuries to his head and face; and will he have inquiries made into the matter?
Is it in order for an hon. Member to put down a question such as this, which contains a grave alle- gation against an officer who is quite unable to defend himself, and then not be here to ask the question, so that it may be answered?
As I happen to be the chairman of the company, I am very much in the same position, and I should be very desirous of putting some supplementary questions.
I agree that an hon. Member ought not to put down a serious question of this kind, and not be here to ask it. It is a very undesirable practice.
Is there no way of getting an answer without the hon. Member being present?
I think not.
Could we not in this case make a special exception to the Rules of the House? [An HON. MEMBER: "Put a private notice question."]
, later: I think, on consideration, that I ought to allow Question No. 104 to be put.
I beg to ask the Home Secretary Question No. 104?
I have made inquiry, and find that, at the time stated, a crowd of about 1,000 persons were prevented from crossing the railway to Messrs. Tate's factory to obtain their wages, because the crossing gates were closed to allow a train to pass. The police present at the spot were only four in number, and no attack was made by them on anyone. Police observed two men fighting in the crowd, but paid no attention to this.
Will the hon. Gentleman make inquires as to whether this particular ditch is private property or public property?
Will he inquire into the allegation made by the men that an unnecessary amount of force was used in preventing the people from attempting to get across at this particular spot, and, in view of the interest aroused in this House, and the statement made by a person connected with the firm—
No such statement has been made.
I understood that the hon. Member for Epping (Sir L. Lyle) intended to put a supplementary question if this question were allowed, but, because the answer was satisfactory, coming, as it does, from police sources, a supplementary question is not needed.
Is not the hon. Gentleman of opinion that the police were entitled to use all necessary force to keep back the crowd when the train was expected on the crossing?
I can add nothing to the answer which I have given.
Will the two officers with the "Nelson eye" receive speedy promotion?
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that this was not a question of a large number of men wanting to prevent a small number from going in to work, but that the whole thing has1 arisen merely through a small number of men coming out, and demanding that everyone in the factory should be compelled to join the trade union, whether they wanted to do so or not?
They have all joined now.
Metropolitan Police (Traffic Duties)
asked the Home Secretary the approximate number of the Metropolitan Police employed on traffic duties only; how many horsed police are specially employed on traffic control; and what percentage of the total police force is now used for traffic purposes?
I will circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT if it be ready in time; if not, I will send it to the hon. Member.
Following is the answer:
Returns obtained for the months of October and December, 1923, and February, 1924, show that the daily average number of men employed wholly or mainly on traffic duties was 1,140, made up as follows:
Number engaged on established traffic points 392 Number engaged at fixed points where traffic duties constitute a large proportion, but not the whole, of the duties performed 478 Number engaged on points manned for a shorter period than a full tour of duty 35 Approximate number specially engaged at street excavations, road repairs, etc. 164 Approximate number engaged on miscellaneous traffic duties not included above 39 Approximate number of mounted men engaged on traffic duties 32 Total 1,140
NOTE.—In addition to the above, 111 men of the ranks of inspector, sergeant and constable are employed on duties in connection with the licensing and supervision of public carriages.
Prison Regulations
asked the Home Secretary what improvements have recently been made by the Prison Commissioners in granting greater facilities to prisoners for writing and receiving letters; and whether he is prepared to grant further facilities of this nature to prisoners of good conduct?
I will circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
All prisoners are allowed to write and receive a letter immediately after conviction. The periods which must elapse before a further letter can be written and received are as follows:
1st Division prisoners.—A fortnight.
2nd Division prisoners.—A month.
3rd Division and hard labour prisoners.—Two months to one month according to stage.
Penal servitude prisoners.—Four months to one month according to stage.
Further facilities in the direction indicated by the hon. Member are being allowed experimentally.
asked the Home Secretary whether the silence rule in prisons has been abolished; and, if so, will he put a stop to the practice of reporting a prisoner for disobeying an order when the offence is simply one of talking?
A Circular on this subject was published as Appendix 10 to the Report of the Prison Commissioners for 1921–22 (Command paper 1761). The whole practice of reporting is dealt with in that Circular, and no further modification is necessary.
Is it not the case that the silence rule does actually exist, and that it is very demoralising both to the prisoners and to the prison warders? That is the point that we want to arrive at.
Prison Officers (Hours of Employment)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is considering the advisability of conceding the prinpicle of the eight-hour day in respect of temporary officers and employés generally in the prison service; and, if so, whether he can state when this will be put into operation?
The conditions of service of temporary employés at prisons have recently been reviewed, and, with the exception of those employed only casually, they have been granted an increase of pay on the basis of their existing hours of duty. I do not think that any further change can be considered at present.
S.S. "Kent" (Preserved Meat Shipment)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health if the s.s. "Kent" has now arrived in London, and if the meat landed from the s.s. "Kent" is in very bad condition, covered with mould spots and whiskers; what steps are being taken to see that this meat is thoroughly examined by independent experts, and that nothing is done to clean up the meat and cut off the parts so discoloured, with the ultimate view of its being exposed for sale, either publicly or privately; and whether, seeing that it has been distinctly advised by a Government Commission that any food preserved by formaldehyde is unfit for human food and injurious to health, he will see that no further shipments of meat or other foodstuffs are treated with this disinfectant?
The consignment of meat referred to by the Noble Lord arrived at the Port of London on the 31st March. It was inspected in the ship on 3rd April by members of the Departmental Committee on the Use of Preservatives in Food. Since that date the Port medical officer has satisfied himself that, apart from the presence of formaldehyde, the whole consignment was unfit for food, and that, with the consent of the consignees, it is being destroyed. None of it will, therefore, be placed on the market. I understand that the Departmental Committee propose to issue an Interim Report dealing with the treatment of meat by formaldehyde, and, pending the issue of that Report, I am not in a position to make any statement as to the future.
Will the Committee take this invaluable opportunity of making this experiment upon themselves by consumption of the meat?
Housing
Government Proposals
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether the statement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has contributed to an American paper, reproduced in to-day's journals, on the financial arrangements of the housing scheme represents the Government policy and programme?
I will answer that question. The statement made by me to an American newspaper, reported in our newspapers to-day, was based on declarations made in this House as to the estimated cost of housing and the rents. The deductions from these declarations as to the general lines of the scheme are obvious and depend upon the cost of the houses and the rents at which they are let; and they can be made by going into the Estimates debated in this House and in relation to previous subsidies. The amount of the subsidy to be borne by the State and the local authorities is obviously a matter for discussion between the Government and the local authorities.
May I put this question to the right hon. Gentleman? Does he not know that we have repeatedly pressed the Minister of Health and the Prime Minister in this House for particulars of the financial arrangements, of the Government's housing scheme, and further, does he not know that in the statement which is reproduced in to-day's papers on the high authority of the right hon. Gentleman himself, there is indicated for the first time, the exact financial arrangements between the State and the local authorities, including an estimated sum of what would be the loss on the rates of the particular housing scheme adopted by the Government, and does he not think, occupying the high position that he does, that it is right and fair to the House of Commons that these statements should be made first to the House of Commons and not to the Press?
There is nothing whatever in the article to which reference is made by the hon. Gentleman which was either not communicated to the House or which it is not within the ability of any person to deduce from the statements that have been made in the House. The Prime Minister stated, when outlining the legislative programme of the Session, that it was hoped that the houses would cost £500 each and that the average rent would be 9s. per week, including rates and taxes. A fourth-standard school-boy could deduce from that what the loss would be and what the amount of the total subsidy would be, and, as I have stated, my deductions went upon the lines of having relation to previous subsidies.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. colleague the Minister of Health subsequently stated in the House that the figures mentioned by the Prime Minister were not to be taken literally as accurate statements of estimates.
That is precisely my point. The statement which I have just made was that the amount of the subsidy to be borne by the State and the local authorities is obviously a matter for discussion between the Government and the local authorities, and that the amount of the subsidy must necessarily depend upon whether the houses can be let, and, if they are let, the amount of subsidy will depend, of course, on what they can be let for.
I have not seen the statement, but when the right hon. Gentleman wrote this article, if it be an article, was not he aware of what the proposals of the Government would be, or was he working in ignorance of what the proposals would be and merely deducing his own observations from the figures?
I made the statement at the request of the American paper, which wanted to know the general nature of the programme following upon the statement which had been made by the Prime Minister, and I went not at all beyond what had been stated in the House, but made the obvious general deductions from the figures which had been given.
I beg to give notice that with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will raise this matter further on the Motion for the Adjournment to-day.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to state what progress has been made with the negotiations with the building industry on the housing proposals.
Mr. Wheatley's Statement
I am glad to have this opportunity of explaining to the House the steps which the Government have taken and the progress that they have made in the preparation of the housing proposals. The broad results under the scheme authorised by the Housing Act, 1923, up to the 1st April, are as follow: For the eight months in which the Act has been in operation, 8,140 houses have been completed; 30,405 houses are under construction, while contracts made or certificates issued by local authorities cover a further 37,846 houses. Of the 38,545 houses which have been completed or are in course of construction, more than half are, I have reason to believe, to be for sale.
It is well that the House should bear in mind that, if an average annual output of probably 100,000 is required to meet the normal increase of population and the annual depreciation of the houses of a similar kind, when the output is below that number the accumulated shortage is not being reduced.
For Scotland, the corresponding figures are: During the eight months referred to 57 houses have been completed; 2,280 houses are under construction, while contracts made or certificates issued by local authorities cover a further 2,187 houses. In the case of Scotland, these figures must be contrasted with an estimated shortage of 100,000 houses at least, made by the Scottish Board of Health to the late Government last year.
Though they fully appreciate the efforts made by local authorities and private enterprise, the Government cannot regard the scheme of this Act as providing a solution of present difficulties or even as leading to a solution within a reasonable time. The majority of the houses are, as I have already stated, being built for sale. Comparatively little is being done for the great mass of those who are only able to pay a rent, and we can see no prospect of this growing demand being met.
The Government, therefore, came to the conclusion that a broader policy was necessary, and that, while they have no objection to the building of houses for sale, they must endeavour to devise means which would lead to the provision in larger numbers and at a more rapid rate of houses built primarily for letting and not merely for sale, and that the rents should be such as the worker—let us say the man building the house—is able to pay. A true national policy should not only meet these points, but should provide means by which the shortage will be overcome, the growing needs will be met, and unsatisfactory houses and slum conditions will be replaced by decent houses.
With this end in view the Government invited the assistance of the representatives of the building industry and of the manufacturers of building material. As a result, the Government have received an extraordinarily valuable Report, and I desire to express the thanks of the Government to all those in the industry who have spent so much time and skill in framing an industrial policy to meet the national needs.
The main point to be noted in the Report is that the industry have come to the conclusion that on the basis of a long- term-programme of house building it can secure such an augmentation of the building labour of the country as will ensure a production of houses which will go far to meet the essential needs of not only keeping pace with the normal demand, but of making good the present shortage and doing something effective to get rid of slum conditions. Without pledging itself to the details of all the recommendations contained in the Report, I am able to say that the Government are prepared to accept the principle of a long programme, and are hopeful that this will command the support of all parties in the House. I would like to add that the representatives of the building industry authorise me to state that they will be prepared to attend non-party meetings or party meetings of Members of the House of Commons interested in housing and explain their Report and answer questions.
It has been a fixed principle of all recent legislation, in aiming at a solution of the housing problem, that the matter should be tackled on the basis of a partnership between the Government and the local authorities. Accordingly, as soon as the industry were in a position to report as to what is practicable, I summoned a conference of the local authorities' associations in Great Britain. I met their representatives yesterday, and explained to them the principles which it seemed to the Government necessary to observe. These I may sum up as follows: The provision of houses in numbers sufficient to meet the needs I have described; the adoption of a long programme as a means of securing the necessary augmentation of the resources of the building industry; the provision of houses for letting at rents within the capacity of the workers. The local authorities undertook to form a committee to consider those principles and to go into the necessary financial arrangements. I hope to conclude the negotiations as soon as possible after the Recess, and to lay before the House the complete proposals. The Government felt it was due to the House that we should describe as fully as possible the lines on which we were proceeding and the progress we have been able to make.
Did the right hon. Gentleman make any proposition to the local authorities he met yesterday with regard to the amount of subsidy necessary and as to how that subsidy should be shared between the local authorities and the Exchequer?
No, I made no such proposition. I indicated that I was willing to consider the question whether the present subsidy required to be extended, and I indicated my belief that in some cases it would.
Is it in order to discuss this question now?
I understand it is to be introduced as the first subject for discussion on the Adjournment.
rose —
I think it better that this should proceed in the course of the Debate.
Shall we be in order in discussing in full the statement, which in a sense adumbrates legislation, and consequently be debarred from putting questions to the Government on a question of legislation?
I certainly shall not take any narrow view with regard to questions put to the Government as to legislation which may be consequential on the statement the right hon. Gentleman has just made, although, of course, it will not be in order for the Government or for hon. Members to develop in detail any question of legislation.
Is it the case that the 5,524 houses which my right hon. Friend said were under construction in Scotland during the past eight months were also covered by his further statement that the majority of the houses were built for sale, in other words, is it the case that more than half these houses in Scotland are for sale?
I understand that the Minister, after hearing questions which may be put in Debate, will be prepared to reply to them.
Notices of Motion
India
On this day four weeks, to call attention to the state of affairs in India, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Mills, on behalf of Mr. Grundy. ]
Colonies and Protectorates
On this day four weeks, to call attention to the need of better representation of the Colonies and Protectorates, especially as regard trade in this country, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Ormsby-Gore. ]
Deer Forests (Scotland)
On this day four weeks, to call attention to the growth of deer forests in Scotland, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. T. Johnston. ]
Adjournment of the House (Easter)
Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 29th April."—[ Mr. Snowden. ]
Orders of the Day
Trade Facilities Bill
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[ Mr. William Graham. ]
In view of the undertaking of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on this stage of the Bill to explain how it will benefit the agricultural community, I invite him to fulfil that undertaking and make his promised statement, on which we withdrew our Amendment earlier in the debate.
I endeavoured to raise this in Committee, but it was not possible to catch your eye, Sir. I wish to raise particular points which are, I believe, of importance to those industries which do not benefit under the provisions of the Trade Facilities Act as they are at present interpreted. I wish to ask the Financial Secretary if it would not be possible for the Government and the Advisory committee to give a somewhat looser interpretation of the term "capital undertaking" in connection with the loans which are accorded to industries under this Act. After all, it is not only in such industries as at present are profiting by the provisions of the Bill that unemployment is rife, nor indeed can it be said that those industries are the ones in which unemployment is worst. There are numerous other industries which, under the present interpretation, cannot obtain any of the assistance which this Act gives and which it would be well to give to other industries. In particular I have always hoped it would be possible for the case of such industries as the lace industry of Nottingham, which put up a quite serious propostion on this subject to the last Government, to be considered for assistance under this Act. The form in which I believe assistance could best be given to textile industries would be in the form of making available to them the same generous provision for the payment of three-quarters of the interest on loans which under Clause 2 of this Bill are made available for certain capital undertakings in the Dominions. I do not suggest that it would be possible to make these facilities available for every small individual firm, but I am certain hon. Members with experience of the cotton trade would agree that in the textile industries generally, and in particular in a trade like the Nottingham lace trade, it would be perfectly possible to create a trade organisation embracing all the firms in any particular district to administer, or assist the Advisory Committee in administering, the grants provided under the Act. I fully understand that under the present provisions of the Bill the Financial Secretary, when he goes into the matter, may say such a proposal is impracticable. In that case I would ask him to consider seriously whether he could not come before Parliament when we reassemble and propose an amending Act under which it would be possible to give facilities of this kind to industries in general. The small man is in just as much need, indeed in greater need—
Does not the Bill give it?
I know the hon. Member is a recognised authority, and if he tells me the Bill gives facilities to the small man I shall accept what he says, but if that is so it is not generally known and appreciated in the country.
I can give the hon. and gallant Gentleman this assurance. Sitting on the Committee the other day we had 11 cases before us. Eight were under £200 and six, I believe, were under £50. He need, therefore, have no fear whatever that no inducement is given, so far as we can, to the small man.
I am very grateful to the hon. Member for the assurance. One of the difficulties is the restricted definition which the Committee has to give to the term "capital undertaking," and that is why I say it may be necessary to introduce some amending legislation varying that term and possibly putting a wider term into the body of the Bill. I am not talking inadvisedly when I say that the Nottingham lace trade under existing conditions would not be able to avail itself of any material assistance. I am very glad to hear the assurance of the hon. Member opposite with regard to the small man.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman's question was in reference to facilities under the Trade Facilities Act, but I understand my lion. Friend's reply was with regard to export credits.
Of course, export credits and trade facilities are two very different things. What I am urging is that the Government should consider whether it is possible to extend the trade facilities provisions so as to make them easier of access to the small man, to whom cheap money is, if anything, more essential than to large firms, who can get almost as good terms from financiers as from the Government. In these circumstances I ask the Financial Secretary for an undertaking that he will look into the question and, if possible, introduce some amending legislation with a view to providing for such a case as the Nottingham lace trade.
I think I am entitled to make some mild protest regarding the criticism offered by the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. Mond) about half-past twelve this morning. I indicated to him privately that I had to go, and in any case the information he was seeking had been given. I make no comment because I think the House understands that in any case it can be made very clear at this stage. On 3rd April the Minister of Agriculture made a statement indicating that everything would be done to bring to the notice of agricultural areas the provisions of this Act of Parliament, and immediately afterwards a statement was issued to both the London and provincial Press, which in the main published it, setting forth the classes of enterprise in agricultural areas which could promote schemes for guarantees under the Trade Facilities legislation. That comprised all kinds of enterprises, including beet sugar, which could be put forward as sound propositions, indeed any scheme involving capital expenditure in rural districts which would fulfil the conditions of this Act. That, I think, is an adequate reply to the point which the hon. Member raised. There is every desire, as far as the Advisory Committee is concerned under the Trade Facilities Act, to encourage enterprise in the agricultural districts. We do not want to confine the operations of the Act to the large industrial centres, because we realise that the agricultural areas have a call under this scheme.
On the second point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) the reply can be brief and clear. First of all, I have made it plain that there is no discrimination against the small man in this legislation. Of course, hon. Members will agree that, especially when we have regard to the depressed industrial conditions, many of the small men are not able to put up the kind of security which a larger undertaking can afford, and in the absence of that security the Advisory Committee would, I think, look with greater caution and restraint upon the application of the small man. At the same time, and drawing a very clear distinction between the Export Credits Scheme, which is a totally separate proposition, and which goes down to very small amounts, and the Trade Facilities Scheme, we have no desire to rule out small applicants. The tendency seems to be rather the other way, because many of the sums guaranteed are not very large. Therefore, in legislation of this kind there is no discrimination against the smaller applicant.
My hon. and gallant Friend raised a different proposition with reference to an industry like the lace industry, which is under a marked state of depression and is exposed to peculiar difficulties because of the dislocation of the exchange, and foreign competition. In a state of affairs like that, the Advisory Committee has to look to all the circumstances, and I am afraid that, owing to the trade depression, the security which would have to be put up might be somewhat weakened by the circumstances of the industry as a whole. However, that kind of application is not ruled out. The Advisory Committee would always keep in mind their duty, and the importance of providing employment, and, of course, they would keep in mind another thing, which is part of this legislation, namely, the necessity of contributing to the permanent productive power of the country. While I cannot segregate any part of the guarantee for such a purpose, I will undertake to keep my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion in mind, and, in asking that we should now have the Third Reading of the Bill, I can assure him that the whole desire of the Advisory Committee and of the Treasury and of the Government is to keep the conditions so elastic that this legislation will discharge its duty on the lines I have mentioned, subject, of course, always to reasonable protection for the taxpayers as a whole, because we must keep in view the fact that an aggregate of £65,000,000 of guarantee is actually involved in this legislation.
As the hon. Member has consented to look at the scheme, will he oblige me by calling on the Board of Trade for the papers relating to the proposal which we submitted to the Board of Trade under the last Government for setting up a Board of Lace Control, a trade organisation to deal with matters under the Export Credits and Trade Facilities schemes, to enable firms to trade?
I cannot give a promise of anything that may be done by the Advisory Committee, but I will call for the Papers to which the hon. and gallant Member refers.
I should like to ask the Financial Secretary to make clear a point which I tried to have elucidated last night, but failed. I refer to the intentions of the Bill. During the Debate last night, it transpired that the word "communications" was meant to include harbours, docks and wharfs. That is a very broad interpretation of the word. I think it is advisable that we should know also what is meant by the words "capital undertaking." I will try to elicit the information by asking two questions. It is agreed that if a ship is obsolete and someone purposes building a new ship to take its place that they can get facilities under this Bill. Let me put a case under the cotton industry. Supposing there is a cotton mill which normally employed 1,500 workpeople, and the mill has been closed down for nearly two years. If under the same circumstances this cotton mill could get facilities from the Government under this Bill, it would mean the putting into employment of from 1,000 to 1,500 workpeople. Would the cotton trade be able to get the same facilities as the shipping industry or any other industry which benefits under the Bill?
I can only speak again by leave of the House. The first point raised by my hon. Friend relates to the word "communications." Controversy turned last night upon that part of the Bill which is concerned with the granting of three-quarters of the interest on public utility undertakings in the Dominions which raise loans to be expended here. I made it plain, in reply to the hon. Member who raised that point, that the phrase in the Bill, "communications," covered the word "docks." We were so advised, and I said there was no necessity to add the words which he suggested. He accepted that statement, and I understand that he is perfectly satisfied.
As regards the other question raised by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood), there is a clear distinction between the two cases which he submitted. The plain principle under this legislation is a guarantee in respect of capital expenditure. Building a ship, or any specific enterprise of that kind, would be regarded clearly and definitely as capital expenditure coming within the purposes and scope of this legislation; but it is altogether different from the second point which my hon. Friend raised. In the second case he was referring to a factory which exists but which has been closed because of depression. That factory, I presume, would be opened immediately better times came, or if the financial circumstances improved. One could not read into those circumstances the kind of capital expenditure which is meant in this legislation, and I can say at once that in the case as stated by my hon. Friend it would be impossible to get a guarantee under this scheme, unless the applicant could put up security and point to some definite capital expenditure which was involved. I should think that such expenditure would not be involved, according to my hon. Friend's statement. I trust that that explanation has made the point quite plain.
I am very sorry that that is not at all a satisfactory explanation. It puts the cotton-spinning industry in an unfair position in that it segregates it from any other industry in regard to getting facilities under this Bill. It is a very grave injustice to an industry which is suffering more than any other industry at the present time.
As one of the supporters of the Amendment which was dis- cussed earlier in the debate with regard to agriculture, I must express my disappointment at the statement of the Financial Secretary. He told us that if we did not press our Amendment to a division, or if we withdrew our Amendment, he would give us some sort of satisfaction. My hon. Friend's Amendment was a very important one for agriculture. We asked for £10,000,000. We did not think that was an excessive sum, considering that we were making a grant of £7,500.000 towards the Sudan. We know the state of agriculture, and the only satisfaction we have got out of the promise that was made has been some newspaper report and two circulars. It is extraordinarily difficult for us to get any money out of the Governemnt under such a scheme as that brought forward. I do protest against Ministers making promises in order to secure the withdrawal of an important Amendment and then coming forward with a statement entirely unsatisfactory to anyone who has the agricultural interests at heart, and thereby getting out of their promise. The Amendment of my hon. Friend had a tremendous amount of support in the House on all sides, and it is very doubtful whether, as a result of a vote, it would not have been carried. We enter a protest against the reply of the hon. Gentleman.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read, the Third time, and passed.
National Health Insurance (Cost of Medical Benefit) Bill
Not Amended ( in the Standing Committee ) considered.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."— [ Mr. Wheatley. ]
I do not want this Bill to leave the House without renewing the protest that I made on Second Reading. I regret extremely the raid that has been made on the funds of the National Health Insurance societies, the approved societies, by the taking away of 2s. 4½d. per member per week from their funds. I am surprised that that has been done by the present Government, who profess so much to have the interests of the working people at heart. I congratulate Sir Alfred Watson on the extraordinary stability of his original proposals. He has been assisted by circumstances, in that a great deal more public money is devoted to the assistance of poorer people than in the past, and that has done something to help to increase the public health.
The point of my protest is that national health insurance is founded on a contract made between the Government and the people who are insured. The terms of that contract were that any surpluses or any surplus funds of any kind whatever should be used for the purpose of increasing benefits, or giving additional benefits, of which a number are specified in the Act. This Act of National Insurance has conferred an immense boon upon the people. It has done more to increase the public health of the nation than any Measure that has been put on the Statute Book. It has an immense future before it, but it has been deprived by this Measure, to a considerable extent, of the means of carrying out that future that was designed by the Act. I have said that I am surprised that the present-Government should have been the authors of this attack.
There is no means of using money socially to better advantage than collecting it by means of contributions from the workpeople and employers and using State money to a certain degree to assist in the beneficent purpose for which the Act is carried out. So far as that is Socialism, I entirely approve of it, because it is not pauperisation in any shape or form. It is only enabling the individual workpeople to get the best value for their money. I am amazed that the big societies made this bargain with the Minister, as they had many more supporters in this House than perhaps they realised, who would have given attention to the matter. It has been argued before, and I am not sure that it will not be argued again, that these funds, the 2d. that is taken direct out of the approved societies' funds, the 1s. 8¼d. a week taken out of the Sinking Fund, and the 6d. taken out of the interest, not being invested funds of the societies, are not taken from funds under the control of the societies. I will not argue that, though I could make out a very good case, but these funds are reserves of the societies, and the resources of the societies are being diminished to this extent of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, which is being taken away to provide this money. To that extent these additional and these future benefits are being diminished, and these societies are being deprived of a means either of increasing their existing benefits or of giving the additional benefits that were originally designed, I protest strongly against this raid being made on the funds of the societies. I have taken this opportunity of doing so now, because I hope that the country, and more particularly the insured people, may know what has been done, and that it will show the Government that if any further attempts are made to diminish these funds, there will be strenuous opposition from myself.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Adjournment of the House (Easter)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Spoor. ]
Housing
I make no apology for raising the question of providing additional housing, and the various points which arise out of it, because I am satisfied that great interest is taken in the whole subject not only in this House but outside. This House has to-day been given a certain amount of information by the declaration which the Minister of Health has just made, in answer to a question upon the subject of Government action in this matter. I am sure that the representatives of all parties in the House will be anxious to facilitate progress in dealing with the housing problem throughout the country. There is no one belonging to any party who does not recognise that no small part of the difficulties which have fallen to the lot of Governments and of our people as a whole since the War arise out of the shortage of houses. I would not venture to go very far to-day in discussing what the right hon. Gentleman has just said without more mature con sideration, but it appears that the general line of His Majesty's Government to-day is to endeavour to bring into consultation the employers of labour in the building industry, the workers themselves and the producers of materials, in a united effort to obtain a solution of this problem.
We welcome such steps as are being taken towards that end. A scheme extending over a long period in this country is a matter on which we may look with considerable sympathy, but it appears to me that if an arrangement is to be made extending over a period of 15 years it will be very dangerous if we are tied down at preent with the many difficult circumstances of the moment, and the high cost of living, to any form of subsidy which would be bound to be continued during the whole of the period. We might well hope that within a reasonable time such circumstances might arise, from the cheapening of the necessary materials and other causes, that the necessity for maintaining even the present subsidy might be lessened. It may, however, be replied that in order to give confidence not only to the producers of the material but to the workmen in these trades there must be established some feeling of security that they will not be asked to enter on a great work and then shortly find themselves thrown out of occupation.
With regard to the lack of housing accommodation in my own country, Scotland, we realise the great difficulties with which we are faced at the moment. Obviously from the conditions of climate, from the short period when it is possible to build, from the fact that in that country we have largely built of stone, though now we are making a fresh effort to combine stone and brick, or even have brick alone, and from the other difficulties and the cost of producing houses in Scotland, the necessity for some special consideration with regard to a subsidy for Scotland is apparent to anyone who gives thought to this question. But I think it unfortunate that the housing problem in Scoland has been brought very much into the political arena, and I would desire, if possible, to place the whole study of this question outside the party cockshy which goes on. It is unfortunate that there should be exaggerated statements made about this question as it appears from a partisan point of view, and I plead earnestly that there should be an effort of honest co-operation between Members of all parties in order to solve the problem. If that result is going to be obtained, it is essential that we in this House should deal with the facts, and that we should have placed before us figures showing exactly the position as to how we stand.
A great deal has been said recently about the question of evictions in Scotland. I put some questions to the Prime Minister the other day on this matter. I did so with the honest desire of obtaining from him or from a representative of his Government a statement of the facts as they exist to-day. I am satisfied that the Members of this House have shown in the discussions which have recently taken place here on that subject, and by the attitude of Members of all parties in Committee upstairs, in dealing with the Evictions Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Widdington (Mr. Simon), that there is no division of party in the desire to deal fairly with the problem. That being so, I ask whether I am right in saying that, from the information which I have had placed in my possession, the number of petitions taken in the Courts in the city of Glasgow in the two years pre-War was 52,290 and the number of decrees granted was some 10,000?
If those figures are correct, it is clear that, whatever may be other things arising out of the present position, the actual number of cases brought before the Court in Glasgow pre-War was rather more, and not less, than the actual number of cases which are being brought before these Courts at the present time. That was at a time when employment was good and there were not any abnormal conditions such as there are to-day. Taking the answer which the Secretary for Scotland gave me on this point, there were in 1923 in Glasgow, roughly, 17,000 cases brought before the Courts, as against something like 26,000 in a pre-War year. That shows us at once that, grievous and serious as the problem is to-day, it is less even in the difficult circumstances of the moment than in a pre-War year. In 1912 and 1913, no doubt there were vastly more houses available for people to go to, but that there was shortage of houses even then is also true, although it may be aggravated now. Apart from that, I would like the House to realise that it is not by exaggerating the picture and running away with wild ideas on the subject that you are going to solve this problem, and all that I would claim from the figures which I put before the House is that these matters should be fairly considered.
1.0 P.m.
I have been reminded that the figures given in the answer to me, as to the evictions, do not disclose the actual situation, as in a considerable number of cases the tenants removed in consequence of the legal proceedings having been taken, without waiting to be actually evicted. I have endeavoured to get some information on that particular point, and, so far as I am concerned, I am sure that those numbers are not really appreciable. If they are, I shall be interested to know whether the Secretary for Scotland can now produce for the information of this House anything which will give us the numbers of these cases, as obviously they must have a bearing on the case, but, from all the information at my disposal, though of course it is not as extensive as that which a Government Department would have, they are not really appreciable. If we turn to the cases at Clydebank, where this problem is very acute, what do we find? We find that in Clydebank there is a large number of people who have received notices to quit, but that in fact very few evictions have taken place. I understand from a Return which has been given to me that in 1923 only one Order was actually carried out, and that in 1924 there were 12. I want to ask whether it is not the case that of those 12, eight of the tenants were in employment and that the number of tenants actually out of employment is a very small one. I would like to have definite information upon that point. It does not follow that the problem is solved even if a householder is in employment. I would remind the House, however, that the position in Clydebank has been greatly aggravated by what is called a rent strike. I have yet to learn that any responsible Minister or Government will give its support to a rent strike. I ask the Minister directly whether it is the proposal of the Government to support anything of the kind.
Can you tell us more about this rent strike?
As I understand it, the rent strike in Clydebank was started soon after the passage of the 1920 Act. and if my information is correct—I am always open to correction—the rent strike was led by, among others, a right hon. Gentleman who now sits on the bench opposite and by other Members of this House—the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burgs (Mr. Kirkwood), the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell), who is now Secretary for Mines, and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health. If I recollect aright, there was a procession from Shettleston to Glasgow Green, where, on a historic occasion, the decisions come to by this House were condemned and there was formed in Clydebank an association for the specific purpose of refusing to pay rent, the object being, of course, to force the hand of the Government of the day. If the hon. Gentleman who interrupted wants a little more information I ask him whether he is aware of the activities of a gentleman named Leiper. I will quote a portion of a letter which appeared in the "Clydebank Press" on 4th April. It is signed by Mr. Andrew Leiper, who is a member of the town council. It refers to a deputation of the Clydebank Housing Association which came to London, and there is this paragraph: ciated. I want to ask whether now, on reflection, His Majesty's representatives holding office still adhere to that policy, and whether to-day they will express their approval of that action. What has been the result of the strike? I want to be perfectly fair in the matter. I am willing to concede that there is much unemployment in that district, and that many of these people have the greatest difficulty in meeting their rents or in paying instalments of their rents. Whoever they may be, if they are not actually earning some money in employment they are being supported by contributions from the State and from the local authorities, and, while in the opinion of hon. Members opposite that maintenance may not be sufficient support, I have yet to learn that it is to be laid down as a principle in this country that, of all the responsibilities which a citizen has to meet, even in the present distressing circumstances, the payment of rent is one which is not to be acknowledged. If that principle were accepted in this country it would be disastrous. Moreover, I do not think that it is in any sense part of the view of the great majority of my countrymen. What has been the result of the work of this association? In Clydebank it has led to a situation in which, on 28th February, there were gross arrears of rent of something like £157,000. These arrears have accumulated in a period of 14 months. The beginning of the trouble dates from the time of the passing of the 1920 Act. It is quite obvious that the local authority is faced with the fact that, unless these people are advised by those who have led them hitherto to retrace-their steps and to meet by instalments their just debts, the local authority will have to increase the rates next year, and the burden will fall upon people who can ill afford to bear it.
In all honesty I ask, not only the Government, but hon. Gentlemen opposite who represent these constituencies, to use all their influence to induce these people to meet these payments. It has been said that these people are harshly treated. I cannot believe that anyone who has studied the action of the Courts in Scotland or in England would agree with that contention. When these cases come before the Courts the magistrate or sheriff deals with them in the most sympathetic manner. If that had not been so, how much greater would the eviction figures have been! It is clear that every opportunity is given to these unfortunate people to overcome the difficulties which they have to face. I understand that where the tenant is not more than nine months in arrear no decree is granted. Where the tenant is 10 months in arrear the case is continued on condition that the tenant makes payment weekly. In fact, every inducement is given to these people to pay the rent by instalments. It has been said, in reference to the worst cases, that these properties for which rents are not paid belong to large and rapacious landlords. That is not always the case. It has been the practice recently for honest working men to invest their money in house property, with the view of benefiting their families when they fall out. There are many particularly hard cases which could be brought to the notice of hon. Members opposite. There are to-day many people who are suffering very materially from the non-payment of these rents. They are people who are drawn from the working classes and are themselves, in many instances, out of employment. In these circumstances I stress the point that every effort should be made to overcome this difficulty.
I realise that there are many hon. Members who desire to speak on this subject, and that it is unreasonable for anyone to occupy too long a time. Although I cannot possibly touch on many of the points which are of importance, yet I ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he can give me specific information upon the matters which I have raised. I wish to know definitely what the figures are for eviction, comparing to-day with the pre-War period, whether he has now any information to bear out the statement which he made the other day, that there are large numbers of people who have left their houses on threat of eviction. From my information, I do not believe that that is an appreciable number, but if I be wrong I would like to know what are the actual figures. As far as my party is concerned, we will cooperate to the fullest in forwarding any scheme which will honestly bring about an increase of houses in this country, but for myself I will never take any part or share in leading or advising people to evade their just debts in the form of rent. In conclusion, I would say that I am interested, and not a little relieved, to find that in the statement which the right hon. Gentleman made to-day he does not rule out the building by private enterprise of houses in this country and of houses for sale. Indeed, it would be desirable if a larger number of our people could own their own houses, and if the Government could see their way to devise some scheme towards that end they would receive the fullest support. If the right hon. Gentleman can reply to these questions, I shall be much obliged.
May I say how completely I and, I think, most of my friends join in the response made by the right hon. and gallant Member for the Pollock Division (Sir J. Gilmour) to the appeal of the Minister of Health that this whole subject should be considered altogether apart from any party consideration; though I am not sure that he entirely carried out his promise in the speech he has just delivered. I would also like to express my congratulation to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, despite what his black past may have been—
Red past—
Very well, red past —on the really enormous and desirable attempts he is making to settle a problem, which has proved insoluble in the four different attempts made to settle it since the War. I do not propose to deal with evictions, or with any subject of that sort, or with local political or social disturbances in Glasgow or elsewhere. My interest is entirely in the future, not in the past. It would be desirable if we could, to a certain extent, contribute in this Debate some suggestion or criticism, or elicit from the Minister of Health something about the future ideas of the Government in connection with houses in general. As my hon. Friend for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) said in Committee upstairs, there is really only one problem, and if we settle that, every other problem would be settled. We have been tormented during the whole of the Session with perpetual discussion of evictions, disturbances, control, and decontrol, no rent or too much rent, of alternative accommodation—a dozen different means of meeting a problem that can only be met in one way, namely, by building more houses. Directly you get the supply of houses overtaking the demand, none of these questions will count at all. Directly a man has a choice of houses, instead of being driven out of a house with nowhere else to go, we shall have solved the housing problem. If my right hon. Friend does that, he will have earned the gratitude of the whole community. I must offer a certain amount of criticism, not of himself, but of the proposals placed in a White Paper before this Parliament. I do think there is no other way of dealing with this subject but by an extended programme over some years. I cannot see any solution in merely attempting to deal with the subject month by month. If the Minister for Health, in his reply to-day to the question put by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), is merely asking the House to endorse that fundamental principle, I think the House would endorse it almost unanimously.
I wish to make a few remarks on the recommendations of die Building Committee, and I would preface them by saying that I have no controversy with the members of the Committee, who, I believe, quite honestly, recommend to the right hon. Gentleman a solution of the subject. I join with the Minister of Health in expressing our thanks for the work they have done and also for their willingness to meet Members of all parties, or of any party, further to explain their proposals and to be questioned concerning them. I very earnestly appeal to the Minister of Health very carefully to examine during the Recess the full implications of what the Building Committee recommends. If it were embodied in a Government Bill, it would produce a disastrous result on the future possibilities of housing. The Building Committee proposes to set up a Housing Trust in this country. It proposes to stamp out all competition and competitive prices, it seeks the stabilisation of labour as between one district and another, and the prevention of migration from one district to another in so far as it can, so as to avoid the creation of competitive prices. It makes no suggestion, in fact it repudiates the suggestion—although there is this disastrous shortage in building' to-day— that there should be any control of luxury or unnecessary building, or the building of wealthy men's houses, in order to divert more of the skilled labour to cottage building. It will not listen to that suggestion. It makes no suggestion as to what wages should be given. although it desires that the Minister of Health shall lay down that no more, and no less, than a standard rate shall ever be established—a method which would have prevented, if it had been laid down, the completion of the British Empire Exhibition, if that Exhibition ever is completed. [ Interruptions. ] I do not want to be led off on a question about Wembley, so far as there is a stabilised and sterilised rate, apart from negotiations between the consumers—who, after all, are represented by the local authorities and the Government—and the building industry, the consumers will have no voice in the matter. The Committee stated that they had given the Minister of Health a confidential assertion of what the cost of the building of these houses shall be in the report of "X" and "Y"—"X" for houses in a certain area, and "Y" for houses built in a more crowded area. It would very much help our examination of the schemes if the Minister of Health could give us any kind of account of what this building trust desires to ask the Government and the local authorities to pay them in the forms of these "X" and "Y," and what proportion of that is going to the labour, and what they consider a fair amount of profit for the building industry. With all that is given to this trust, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that they do not guarantee, or even suggest that they are able, to build sufficient houses to make up for the present shortage. The right hon. Gentleman in a speech to which I listened with great interest on the 26th March, laid the whole facts before the House frankly and fairly. He said: House. The right hon. Gentleman saw a deputation of those who are concerned with housing and town planning. I saw a similar deputation in my time, when I occupied a humble position in the Department of which he is now head. This responsible deputation declared—and they have some reason for declaring it —that in addition to the annual increase of 120,000 houses and to the overcrowding which occurs at present, due to the fact that no alternative accommodation is available, there are something like 1,000,000 houses unfit for human habitation, which would be condemned—I know some of those houses are not fit for animals to live in—by the Government under our own Bill of 1908, but for the fact that they will not be condemned either by the Inspectors of the right hon. Gentleman's Department, or by the local authorities, because they say it is better for the people to live in these than to be turned into the street with no place to live in at all. Therefore he will agree with me that we are not under-estimating the whole necessities when we say, that in order to return to civilisation we require in this country at least 200,000 houses built each year, cottage houses, within the reach of the poorer paid clerk, and of the artisan and the labourer. This monopoly declare that they cannot build, and have no means of building, anything like that amount. If you will examine their figures in comparison with the 200,000 which are required, you will find that every year until 10 years' time—for apparently nobody else is going to build cottage property except this trust—in comparison with the houses they are going to build, and the need of the people represented by 200,000 houses, instead of advancing we shall be steadily going back. Only in 10 years' time will we be able to get our 200,000 houses. During that time our present shortage will have increased by nearly half a million houses. Therefore the problem seems to me to call for a wider and larger operation of the whole community, united in devising better means, for more speedily building houses, than that offered by the building trust to the right hon. Gentleman.
More Socialism!
This is not Socialism. There is a good deal to be said for Socialism or municipalisation of the cottage property. It is better than this building trust. If the needs of the people are such that private enterprise cannot provide the arrangement necessary, as an alternative I think there is something to be said for a building allowance to the municipalities to enable them to go forward and establish cottage property as a fundamental necessity in the life of the people.
Now as to some of the difficulties which ought to be overcome, even if the Committee itself does not see its way to do it. There is no suggestion of any kind of speeding up the building trade. As far as I can gather, my friend the ex-Lord Mayor of Manchester, who knows this subject with great intimacy, is right in his statement that the estimate appears to be based on the laying of a certain limited number of bricks a day, which, certainly in the municipal building of cottages, has been greatly exceeded, and could be greatly exceeded. There is no suggestion of any change by offering a bonus, or by piece work, or even by higher wages, which they say they are giving at. Wembley to speed up this necessity of life. I do not know that there is any need to consider those questions in dealing with ordinary building, that of museums or big architecture, etc. My interest is in building houses for the poorest of the people. In these circumstances, I think we ought to demand on the one hand a limited amount of profit, as we thought we demanded during war time—and this is a war-time measure—for those who are engaged in building, and also some special effort in speeding up on the part of those who are engaged in the actual work of construction. I do not want to use the word "dilution." [ Interruption. ] I shall be very eager to hear what criticisms hon. Members have to make afterwards. "Dilution" in home affairs has become as harmful a word as "revision" in foreign affairs. In the engineering trade, especially, dilution has proved a great tragedy. There is no possibility of fulfilling our 200,000 ideal without bringing into the building trade skilled men from other trades. All that is offered is an addition to the already scanty supply of skilled craftsmen in the building trade, a supply which is, in some branches of the trade at present, 50 per cent, less than it was 10 years ago, while the demand is 100 per cent, greater. All that is offered is an extension of the appren- ticeship system for.people under 20 years of age, and on that proposal I advance two submissions. First, I do not believe it requires four years of apprenticeship for a young man of from 18 to 24 years of age, who is very likely skilled with his hands, in another trade, in order to make him a skilled artisan in the building trade. Secondly, surely it is a monstrous idea that we should shut out from the one trade which is crying out for labour every man over 20 years of age. During the operations of the War—and I do not know how it could have been avoided— we brought into certain trades, and educated and trained in those trades— especially the engineering trade—a large amount of surplus labour. It was the response of the engineering trade to the demand of the country for special war work, and, as a consequence, in those trades there is a terrible amount of unemployment at the moment.
That was their reward.
There has also resulted low wages. I entirely agree.
You want the builders to be in the same position.
I do not want the builders to be in the same position. When my hon. Friend says that, either he is saying what he knows is not true or else he had better wait and listen to what my contention is.
That will be the economic result.
Oh, shut up!
What about the Front Opposition French, Mr. Deputy-Speaker?
That is the Noble Lord for you.
As the time for the discussion is limited, I hope the right hon. Gentle-man will be allowed to proceed with his speech.
I am only too anxious to get out what I have to say as rapidly as possible and to sit down again. There is no chance, as far as I can see, whatever the revival of the building trade may be and whatever may be the general prosperity of the country, of absorbing within a reasonable time into all the trades which were special War trades, those who were attracted to them during the War period. I cannot see any chance, and the only chance of obtaining decent work for these men is by their transference into what the late Prime Minister called the sheltered trades. I do not want that transference, believe me, in any way to reduce the wages of those sheltered trades, but the point is we have a demand for this enormous number of houses and therefore a demand for additional skilled labour, and if a continuous programme is laid down I do not see why a smaller amount of wages—in connection with the cost of living perhaps an increased amount of wages or bonus—should not be given to men over 20 years of age to induce them to go into these craft trades. Then, again, you have 800,000 unemployed, including a large number of ex-service men. Is it impossible that ex-service men who fought in the War should not be trained in the building industry? I do not believe it for a moment. I do not believe what was said by one gentleman on the Committee, that it is impossible to train men in this industry who are over 20 years of age when during the War we were training men in the most complicated engineering operations and in all the great industries of the country who were years over 20. The same remark applies to women also. I think if we are to have a continuous programme, which means a subsidy from the State and a subsidy from the municipalities, we ought to ask the building trade, on the other hand, along with that continuous programme, to relax the apprenticeship system of four years and to relax the age limit and allow men to come in even if they are considerably over 20 years of age.
The last point I make is perhaps the most serious of all. I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health does not think I am attacking him in this matter, but he said we were short of men to build houses, short of material and short of the means of producing the material. That is a succinct and perfectly true statement of the position to-day. What is contemplated in this country? It is not only contemplated that a Trust shall be formed which will destroy all private competitive enterprise. It is also contemplated that those who supply building materials shall be given a complete monopoly in this country as a ring or trust without competition from outside. That seems to be the most disastrous suggestion ever made by any sheltered trade. When a tariff was first adumbrated by Mr. Joseph Chamberlain he found himself compelled to exclude raw materials from that tariff. If there is one raw material which ought not to have a tariff on it, it is a raw material which provides a necessity in the life of the poor and next to food, shelter is the first necessity in the life of the poor. But this is the suggestion, and in the opinion of this Committee it is desirable in the national interest that no foreign manufactured goods should be used in houses built under Government subsidy. The Committee state
Sweated wages!
Never mind about sweated wages. Think about the new houses and the cost of the new houses, and whether these new houses are to be built at a cost which may be prohibitive
What about the exchanges?
I do not care even about the foreign exchanges. Let me give one example of what I mean. Germany offered to re-establish the devastated districts of France from her own material and the offer was refused. How else can we get an indemnity from Germany except by exports from Germany to this country, and what better exports from Germany could we have than the raw material to make cottage houses cheaper for the people of this country? Apart from that consideration, I appeal to the greater ideal of the Prime Minister in his outline of policy in the Albert Hall. He said:
"We are out to break all rings and combines."
In regard to the raw material of building you cannot break rings and combines as long as you have an artificial protection in this country. That has been demonstrated for the last 100 years, and I earnestly ask the right hon. Gentleman and the Committee if they cannot allow these materials to be secured at the cheapest price possible. After all, the men who are engaged in the manufacture of building materials in this country have their hands full already. They cannot supply the bricks and they cannot supply the material to the builders who want them. Why not get bricks and stones and quantities of every material into this country in addition to what our own manufacturers can provide and, in these circumstances, let us try if we can—and I believe it is possible at the moment —to get the nine shilling house or a house even cheaper than 9s. for the poorer districts. I apologise for detaining the House so long, but my contribution is intended to be an expression of what I know is a considerable body of opinion in connection with this Committee. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, and I believe those Gentlemen behind him who have quite courteously interrupted me, will agree with me in doing so, if he cannot see some better method of enlarging the possibilities of obtaining these houses which are so urgently needed. I know the right hon. Gentleman does not want gratitude, but if he can do this he will get the gratitude of the House, and not only that, but the gratitude of the community, and I assure him, in all sincerity, if he can solve this problem he will have something better than gratitude, namely the consciousness of having done something really efficient for the benefit of every portion of the community.
I rise to reply to the speech made by the right hon. and gallant Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow (Sir J. Gilmour). As he is a Scotsman, and represents one of the constituencies of my native town, I expected him to have shown himself better able to do justice to the subject of rents and evictions. I am anxious to intervene at the moment, because he deliberately went out of his way to attack my constituents. I make bold to state that my constituents are as good as his and, in anything which anyone cares to set up as a standard, the representative of my constituents is equal to the representative of his constituents. In anything which you like to take up, he and I start on an equal footing. He happens to be a Knight of the British Empire, but that counts for nothing as far as I am concerned. We heard the language of an individual who is known as a Noble Lord, when he called to some of my colleagues here to "shut up." That is the language of Eton and Oxford:
In my constituency, my people are intelligent, and they examined the law regarding the increase in rent, and they refused to pay the increase in rent, according to law. They took it to the Sheriff Court in Dumbarton, and the Sheriff Court there declared that my people were right in refusing to pay the increase, according to law. The land-lards and factors got annoyed at that decision, and they took it to the High Court in Edinburgh, the highest Court in my native land, the Court of Session, and again they were upheld by the Court of Session, not composed of Socialists, although I understand a great lot of them are turning round to be Socialists. I understand that many of the barrister fraternity or the advocate fraternity are coming into the Labour party, because the Labour party is coming into power, but we are going to see about that. The barristers or advocates, as we call them in Scotland—we would not call them the same as you in England at any price— examined the law which had been passed by a British Government, a Tory Government, and they discovered that the decision of Sheriff Macphail, the principal Sheriff in Dumbartonshire, was correct. They upheld his decision, which meant that the tenants of Scotland had a right to sit nine months rent free. They had overpaid nine months' rent. That was the decision of the highest Court in the land. We were the constitutionalists, and you were the Bolshevists.
The landlords and factors sent a delegation down here to interview the then Secretary for Scotland, now Lord Alness. Mr. Robert Munro was his common name, and Robert Munro at that time told them they would have to explore every avenue of the law before he could interfere. That meant that they would have to go to the House of Lords. They knew, before they went there, that there were no laws that could protect them, that the law for once in a while was with the tenants of Scotland, but they had to go before the Lords, and the Lords, to their everlasting credit, stood by the tenants of Scotland. The Lords were above all this little pettifogging order of lawyers and exploiters of the working class, and even upheld the tenants against the Government. The late Prime Minister, who has now gone, Mr. Bonar Law, put a date when this had to end, and brought in a new Act, and again all the brains of the late Government brought in another Bill, which again my people in Clydebank have been able to prove cannot be worked in Scotland, according to law. The administrator of the law in my constituency, Sheriff Menzies, again has shown them where the tenants have no right to pay rent, according to law.
That is how the matter stands. It is not that the people of Clydebank are as suggested by the right hon. Member for Pollok in his finishing statement, which I resent very much, and I will make him sit up for it. [ Laughter. ] The Liberal department may laugh if they like, but there is nothing to laugh at here for me. I will fight this to the very death. It means the lives of the women and children on Clydebank, and if there be a man who plays with the lives of the women and children in my constituency, then his life, as far as I am concerned, is not safe. It is no laughing matter for me. It is a matter of life and death. It is all right for folk who have thousands and tens of thousands of pounds at their backs, but it is a different matter with my folk, who are the backbone of the British Empire, the people who made it possible for them to defeat the Germans. These same people to-day are starving as a result of the mismanagement on the part of those who have been in power.
It is not my people to whom the right hon. Member was referring when he said that he would never be a party to helping folk who did not play the game. That meant those who did not render useful service to society, who would not pay their way, who would not work. These things are not applicable to the men on the Clyde. No better workman is there in the world than the Clyde working man. It has been proven time and again. I just wish the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs were here. He made the statement. It is not David Kirkwood that makes the statement on behalf of the Clyde men, but it was the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, when he was up against it, when he was Minister of Munitions. It was he who made that statement, and to think you have that joker coming in here and speaking in this fashion about those people! He has the audacity to raise his head in Glasgow, and probably in another country, when he rises to speak on behalf of Glasgow, he will boast about this. It is not the people in Pollok about whom he will boast; it is the workers on the Clyde about whom he will boast, the only people about whom anyone can boast, the people who work, and the people in my constituency have always worked.
Along with the Secretary for Scotland and the Under-Secretary of Health for Scotland, we went down to my constituency last week-end, and there we received deputation after deputation of everyone concerned—the landlords' representatives, the town council representatives, the parish council representatives, and the tenants' representatives—and we went into the matter thoroughly. We found this, that Clydebank is in a unique position, that is, that it is a modern town, with two of the greatest shipbuilding yards in the world in it—Beardmore's a: Dalmuir and John Brown's on Clydebank —and they are of modern growth. Within 40 years that town has grown up. I worked all my life for Beardmore's in Parkhead. In Dalmuir they always paid from 5s. to 10s. a week more wages for an engineer than we had in Parkhead. They worked overtime and they had a bonus system, which meant that the workers there, on the average, had bigger wages than we had at the same work in the East End of Glasgow with the same firm. What happened was this, that because of the hard work of the people, because they expended more energy, the landlords and factors in Clydebank took advantage of that by making Clydebank the highest rented town in Scotland. Put that in your pipes and smoke it. They charged a higher rent in Clydebank for the same type of houses than they got in any other part of Scotland. The landlords and factors there took advantage of the good times in Clydebank.
Now the people are up against it, and there is no work. Unemployment is rampant, and it is not a matter of simple unemployment for a month or two, but it has been unemployment for a year or two, for three years. Any amount of them have been unemployed for over three years, and that brings me to a very serious point. How the right hon. Member for Pollok and the other Members who fill the Opposition Front Bench can have the brass face to stand up—I am going to say it, and you can look if you like, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—and speak in the manner they do about the working folk of this country is enough to make us rise from here and go over and put physical violence on them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] You can "order" away as long as you like, but I go down to my constituency, into my native place, and see young men whom I have known all my life, young men who would be the greatest asset that any Empire could possibly have, young men from the artisan class, and find them without work for four years, ranging from 18 to 24 years of age, and at the very time when the young man is being made, when his character is being formed. Who is responsible for making these young men what they are? You, your party. If your party had tried to destroy this Great British Empire—
I must call attention to the fact that the hon. Member is supposed to be discussing housing. Further, the time is limited, and many other hon. Members wish to speak.
I have no desire, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to occupy too much time, but this is a very serious matter.
I do not question the seriousness of the matter, but the matter under discussion is housing.
2.0 P.M.
I know very well, and there is no one who requires to tell me that it is housing which is under discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] It is all very fine for you to say "Order," but I know exactly the circumstances. I have been in them, and that is the difference. They are responsible, and they are not going to get shirking that responsibility. They are responsible for the conditions that prevail there, a very serious state of affairs, that those folk cannot pay rent. What did we get in evidence? The Secretary for Scotland is bound to state it here to-day. We had in evidence that there were people who had lived in the same house for over 20 years. They were never behind with their rent up to now. They never shirked their responsibility. Could those great ships that cross the pathless deep have been constructed by men who shirk their responsibility? I see the conditions from a working man's point of view. What is going on? This housing business is only part of that misgovernment. That is what my colleagues on the Front Bench here have had handed on to them as an inheritance. The people have no houses of their own, and no rights, in fact. They cannot get work, though they are anxious to work, and here are those youths, of whom I have spoken, walking aimlessly about. It is a tragedy, and yet you think that, by simply attacking in this fashion, you are pleasing a certain section of the community in Glasgow, and a certain section of the community in Britain, and that you are doing a service to the British Empire. I want to warn you 'n time—now is the day, and now is the hour—that you are making a serious mistake. I would ask the House to face this question in all its seriousness.
Apart from all the hard things I may say at times on the Floor of this House, I believe that, generally speaking, there are men and women in this House who, if they only realised the actual state of affairs, would face it from a different angle altogether. Instead of wrangling about petty details, they would face this question in its broad aspect, the serious situation it is to the British Empire that here are these folk right up against you. What is exciting those in power at the moment is that in Clydebank there is £100,000 in taxes behind—never mind rents—and my folk in Clydebank are taxed to the extent of 17s. Id. in the £1. I want this House to understand that the people in Clydebank are not what some believe they are. I am typical of the folk in Clydebank, prepared to play my part, as they are prepared to play their part. Their work is a standing monument to their outstanding ability. Their outstanding Scottish characteristics are writ large across the work they have produced. The finest ships produced have been built at Clydebank by those same people. Let this House not forget that, when it is criticising the part that has been played by the people in Clydebank.
I want to address a few questions to the Minister of Health, and then I propose to say a few words concerning the question I put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this morning. I agree very largely with the very powerful speech that was made by the right hon. Gentleman a few minutes ago with reference to the Report which has been furnished to the House by the building trade. The Minister of Health, after, I suppose, he had received the Report, or, at any rate, when he was well aware of the contents of it, made, if he remembers, a very optimistic statement in this House, almost to the effect that he had solved the housing question and the building programme. I confess I can see no grounds for such optimism, and I regret very much that we have seen so little prospect to-day of even the amount of housing during the next 12 months being anything like equal to the amount that has taken place during the last 12 months. There are two things in this Report with which I agree. The first is that, notwithstanding the long-drawn out controversy in this House on very many occasions during the past year or two, both the employers and the operatives in this trade at last admit that there is a pronounced shortage of labour. I welcome very much that admission. The other thing which, I think, should also commend itself to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, is that the Committee said: optimistic view, is, in 1925, 90,000 houses; in 1926, 100,000 houses; and, in 1927, 110,000 houses. Even then there is a very curious reservation in one part of the Report, because it says there that they can only guarantee two-thirds of those figures.
I think that is a very serious state of affairs, and I cannot understand the Minister of Health being satisfied with it. When he knows the position, how be car speak with optimism, and think that ho has by any means solved this problem, I do not understand. When he speaks with commendation of a Report which is only going to produce this limited number of houses, I must confess I cannot share his optimism. What is the reason why this Report says that only that very limited number of houses is going to be produced "The real reason, of course, is that the employers and the men have got together. They have arranged this scheme, I think, to their own great satisfaction, but I doubt very much whether it will meet with the satisfaction of the public. They have got together, and are determined to keep this trade as a privilege trade, and they are going to continue, if they can, in that sheltered position they are in to-day. A good many sitting behind the right hon. Gentleman, I think, have taken the view that when cinemas and luxury buildings of that kind are being erected, they ought to stop in the interests of the housing of the working classes. The Committee have said: It is a most extraordinary suggestion, and I venture to say it will not conduce to the very rapid erection of working-class houses.
I want the Minister, if he will, to tell the House this afternoon how many additional men are coming into the building industry as a result of this scheme. I have seen figures from 35,000 to, I think, 60,000. If that be all the building trade can suggest as an addition for an unspecified number of years, I say you will get very little ahead with this scheme, and the result will be most disappointing.
What do you suggest?
I will gladly answer the hon. Member, although it is not my business, for my hon. Friend must remember that the Minister of Health has now assumed responsibility. But I will say this, that if you are going to do anything in the way of largely augmenting the number of new houses, you must mot only go in for the apprenticeship system very largely indeed, but you must increase very largely the number of workers in this trade.
Does the hon. Member suggest the taking of men into the building trade by a test, that test being made and arranged by various trades?
I think the best answer to that is to read a suggestion which appeared in the "Daily Herald" on Monday last. There was a very valuable letter from Mr. Ranger, who said:
"Where does the bricklayer's labourer come in in the proposed housing scheme? The trade unions are going to accept a certain percentage of boys on short apprenticeship. The majority of these boys will not know as much after two years as the majority of bricklayers' labourers do already. Yet the labourer is to get no consideration whatever as regards 'taking up the tools.' The consequences will be— men who were bricklayers' labourers and worked on non-union jobs until they were passable."
As I understand it, there is undoubtedly a very great field, as the writer suggests in this paper, by which those who have acted as bricklayers' labourers in the past could fairly come in, and be engaged on working-class house building; that is what they are doing to-day. In fact, they have worked at that, and after warde have left to go into non-union jobs, and, naturally, they have gone where the best money is paid. In this Report there is no suggestion of a practical nature in relation to these men.
If the hon. Gentleman will read the Report he will see that it does deal with the bricklayers' labourers.
That is perfectly true, as the hon. Gentleman says, but all they say about the unfortunate bricklayer's labourer is that they note the position. There is no suggestion whatever as to what they are going to do about him, or about bringing him in. The hon. Gentleman will be able to reply to me afterwards, because I have carefully noted the fact myself, and it 16 true there is a reference to the bricklayers' labourers, but nothing is suggested by way of bringing him into this trade. This Report is wholly disappointing in that particular matter. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will note it, as I believe there will be no considerable acceleration of house building in this country for many years to come.
The only other point I wish to make is this: that the report does not deal with the other grave matter about which anybody interested in the housing difficulty is concerned, and that is the cost. I never saw a more extraordinary State suggestion in my life. I am not attacking the men, because it is the employers and men together; but I never saw a more extraordinary suggestion—that is that the trade should let out the contracts and go into the districts and decide the number of houses which should be built! Not a solitary representative has been suggested to stand on this Committee, for the interests of the public. The State is to pay millions to this scheme. The cost, I am informed, of 85,000 houses at an average of £500 is, for the first year, over £42,000,000, yet the trade—and I blame employers and men equally—has to decide. Think of the suggestion that this House of Commons, Members of those benches and Members here, are going to spend this vast sum of money and leave it in the hands of the trade to administer! One of the most interesting things to me is as to how you are going to act in the difficulty as to the price of supplies. What about inquiring into the price of materials? I have said over and over again in this House, apart from what Government was in power, that we have been badly hit as a nation by the profiteering in materials. What does this report suggest in that matter? This report actually suggests that the question of profiteering in materials should be referred to this Trust—as the right hon. Gentleman calls it—or whatever other name you like to describe it by—a body of people upon which there is not a single representative of the public. In this report it is suggested that the chairman should be a member of the building trade, and that this Committee should inquire as to whether the prices are what they ought to be.
One of the most remarkable statements that they make—and I call the attention of the Minister of Health to it—is this, and it is almost a ludicrous statement— if he would set up a small independent committee, not composed of gentlemen in the building trade, but a small expert committee to see whether we really are paying the proper price for workmen's houses to-day, because the high cost of these houses in the end comes back upon the working people themselves who live in them.
Directly you get outrageous prices you get outrageous rents. Directly you get the State having to find sums of money to subsidise these houses, immediately you have the responsibility, you have—quite properly—representations that the State can only pay so much. I say that this Report is lamentable in its suggestion that this country is going to embark upon a housing scheme in which the representative of the trades are the only people who are to be concerned in its administration, that they are to decide whether the prices are going up or down, and that the public and this House is to be entirely ignored in this matter. I know what the result will be, because unfortunately I have seen a lot of it. The prices will go sky-high, and this scheme will meet the fate, unfortunately, of its predecessors. Therefore, I hope that these few criticisms will be taken by the right hon. Gentleman in the spirit in which they are offered, because it is a most serious matter; I trust that he will pause very much before he adopts many of the suggestions contained in this Report.
In a word or two I would refer to the intervention in this housing scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I may say to him, quite respectfully, that we should have welcomed at any time in the House of Commons a statement from him as to the finances of the scheme. There is no subject which demands more the attention of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer than an inquiry into what this scheme is going to cost. What is its financial implication? As J put it or implied it in a question put to the Prime Minister to-day, I do think that it was a very unwise thing for the Chancellor on the 8th of March—and I suppose that the article was written some time before—to contribute this article to an American journal, which, to put it no higher, raises very considerable misconceptions. He occupies, and I think with the general acceptance of the House, one of the highest positions in the Government. I do not think I am putting it too high when I say to him—and I hope he will agree— that it would have been far better if he had any statement to make on the housing position that he should have made it here. It was a very important statement. I do not think he realises exactly what it was he said. He implied, in answer to questions to-day, that there was nothing fresh in this article, nothing new that could not have been got by deductions. I do not think he can sustain that. I have a copy of the article as it appeared in "The Times" this morning. The right hon. Gentleman made a very important announcement which is giving a good deal of anxiety to local authorities at the present time as to what is to be their exact financial relationship to this scheme.
Yesterday the Minister of Health met the local authorities. What is the question they all put to themselves at the end of the interview? What are we going to have? What is going to be the cost? What burden is to be cast upon us in connection with the scheme? The Minister of Health was much more cautious than was the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his American article. He said to the deputation: "You form a committee and bring your proposals to me and I will discuss them with you." It is a very grave question indeed. What did the Chancellor say in his contribution to the American Press? It was this: Chancellor, on 8th March, under all the authority of his very high office, said it was proposed to apportion this loss as I have said. Even putting on one side, perhaps, the more formal complaint that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor ought to have spoken in this House first in the matter, it embarrasses the Minister of Health very much in the negotiations that he is going to undertake with the local authorities. What has been the good of it? I can understand the Chancellor wishing to make a statement to the American people on some matter which may interest them and which may help better relationships between this country and America. But what is the good of the Chancellor writing an article, in some obscure American paper, dealing with a matter of very great delicacy at the present time? What is the good of it?
Therefore, while I do not want to press my right hon. Friend too much, because I know the difficulties at the present time, and the burdens upon him, I do venture to say to him to-day that the House would very much like him in the future, at any rate with regard to any further articles that he may write, that he will have regard to these expressions which I have ventured to put, not, I hope, in an undue or unfriendly spirit, to him. First, let him, if he has any financial statement to make on a matter of domestic policy of this kind, make it to the House of Commons. Secondly, when negotiations of this character are going on, I hope he will see the wisdom of the view that it is better to leave the matter to the Minister who is in charge, and who has got quite enough trouble on his shoulders at the present time.
I do not complain that the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has raised this question, neither do I complain of the way in which he has put the matter forward, and chided me for my fall away from the respect and dignity which is due to the high office which I hold. I do not know that I can add very much to what I said in reply to questions put to me by other hon. Members. I stated to-day, and I repeat it now, that in this matter I was not going in the least beyond what I thought was public property, arising out of the statement which had been made by the Prime Minister in this House. Were it possible, by any stretch of imagination, to regard; this information in any other way, I should be very sorry, indeed.
I am sure there is no Member of this House who is more punctilious than I desire to be in regard to these questions, and in days gone by I have myself often complained of statements having been made by responsible Ministers outside this House which ought to have been communicated first to the House. The particular report to which the hon. Member has referred, I am quite ready to admit, is open to a misunderstanding, but I never intended it to be taken as a bargain or an arrangement or conclusion which had been arrived at. The Prime Minister's statement contained figures with regard to the estimated cost of building houses, and the rents at which it was suggested those houses should be let, and he gave figures from which it was easy to make calculations which could be made by anybody with a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic. I regret that it has been possible that my statement in any way could be understood to be an anticipation or declaration in any way of the scheme of the Government. That certainly was not intended, and as far as I am concerned, if ever again I have to make a communication to those outside the House, I shall always keep a vision of the hon. Member for West Woolwich before me.
I claim the indulgence of the House for a few minutes in addressing hon. Members for the first time. I want to say at the outset how much I appreciate the efforts which the Minister of Health is making in regard to the housing problem, in which all sections of this House are so deeply interested. There is one particular aspect of this question to which' I attach very great importance, and it is that the Ministry shall use every endeavour under his scheme to provide some means by which every man can become the owner of his own house. The more one thinks about this matter, the more one realises that the ideal scheme is to have the owner-occupier. Under the 1923 Act the houses largely erected have been for sale, and the people who have been in a position to buy them are not drawn from the artisan classes, and it is on behalf of the artisan classes that I wish to make a few remarks.
I believe the most pressing part of the problem is the provision of houses for the artisan classes, and in that connection I want to suggest that the Minister of Health should make some provision whereby the artisan can, by an increased payment, become the owner of his own house faking the rent as the basis. There might be a small increased payment, which would create a sinking fund, and by that payment a man might ultimately become the owner of his own house. I think it is an ideal condition of things that you should remove from the occupier the fear of his disturbance, and give him an increased interest in the occupation of his house, because then he takes a greater pride in it, and you bring about at once a great social reform, and the ultimate effect is that he becomes a still better citizen.
I want to emphasise that, by the provision of houses for the artisan classes by an additional payment and the creation of a sinking fund by which a man may acquire an interest in his house, you will then create a type of workman and citizen who will have a consciousness that he has a holding in the Country that he does not now possess. I commend that to the Minister and to the House, and I trust that the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has in hand will have introduced into it some proposal which will have that effect.
My first duty is to congratulate the hon. Member who has just sat down, upon his maiden speech, and I do so all the more warmly because I passionately agree with the plea he has put forward. May I point out that, in my opinion, if the local authorities would only work the 1923 Act, there are provisions in it which give them facilities for meeting the case of artisans who desire to buy their own houses? I want to say a word or two about what has been stated by the right hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman) in regard to this scheme, and I want also to put a few questions. I think this House ought to express its sense of appreciation to the Committee of the building trade which has furnished this Report. Whatever we may say about the Report, it is not a criticism of the gentlemen who drew up the Report, and if there is any criticism, it should be in regard to the Minister of Health for going to those gentlemen and adopting this method. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not object to taking that responsibility, because he is, in fact, the only person upon whom we can place responsibility. There are two alternative ways of dealing with the problem of housing, which we all agree is urgent. You can either deal out your houses to everybody you can find, and try to enlist every individual agency, or you can try and bring every agency together into one big combination, ask their opinion, and then follow their advice.
The Minister of Health has taken the Second course, and I believe he will find that any industry is much less capable of expansion if you organise it under one central system of administration than if you try and deal with every individual in the industry as far as possible. I think that fact is recognised in the Report before us, which shows that you cannot get the maximum expansion of the building industry unless you place the orders, so far as possible, with the greatest possible number of small builders. But how are you going to do that through a simple organisation of the trade? The one agency which cannot spread orders over all the builders in any locality is the local authority, because its rules for putting out contracts make that course impossible. If a local authority tries to do that it can only do it, as we found was the case under the Addison scheme, by getting the local builders into a ring and asking them to tender as a ring. I feel, therefore, that the Minister of Health is going to find that the building industry is less capable of expansion in the opinion of this Committee than it would be if he did not try to get all the agencies in the industry together in one joint consultation.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I think it is shown on the face of the Report that you can build in 1925 90,000 houses. May I point out that we built 99,000 houses in 1922, and the question is what is the total amount of building which is going to be done with the labour which is available? Moreover, they are not prepared to guarantee that amount until 1930. That is the capacity of the building industry, in the opinion of this Joint Consolidated Committee, as compared with the actual achievement of 1922. It is the same thing if you compare it with the working of the 1923 Act. The Committee said that under the 1923 Act they gathered that there are to be 40,000 houses built a year. What are the facts at the present moment? The facts are that on the 1st April, under that Act, there were 30,000 houses under construction and 37,000 on order. Therefore, at least, they are being built as rapidly as 67,000 a year, and I do not think the Minister will deny that. Even supposing that you do not build any more than are now under construction and actually on order during the next 12 months, supposing that it takes six months to build a house—which I think is a very fair estimate—you are building at the rate of 67,000 a year, and the contribution of the new scheme during this current 12 months, therefore, is going to drop from 50,000 to 23,000.
Again, the Committee assumes that, starting on the 1st April with 20,000 houses a year, you will only have 5,000 houses completed by the 1st September—during, the height of the building season in the summer. What is the fact under the-Chamberlain Act? On the same basis, there were 18,536 orders placed on the 1st October last, and 6,148 were completed on the 1st February, four months later. That is to say, that, all through, these gentlemen who have formed this Committee are offering less than is actually being realised to-day, so far as the gross, amount of building houses is concerned, by the local builders and the local authorities acting in their own areas and building their own few houses. That is very ominous when taken in conjunction with the various reports that we hear—two of which were represented by questions on the Paper to-day, in the name of an hon. Member opposite who is not here at the moment—of prices going up. I cannot help thinking that, so far as the Minister-has yet proceeded, he has got nothing from the building industry which he had not already for immediate purposes, and that he is in danger of getting a less quantity by reason of a considerable rise in prices. That is the danger which you always incur when, in a measure, you trustify an industry, consolidating it for the purpose of doing a lot in a hurry. You very often find that you do not do so much as you might if you had not been in such a hurry, and certainly you make it more expensive.
Therefore, the Minister's scheme, so far as it has gone, has contributed, so far as I can see, nothing as regards the number of houses to be built within the next two or three years. It may contribute something, when we know what his full scheme is, towards making such houses as are going to be built more available to the poorer class of working men who cannot afford to own their own houses, and must rent them. Now I come to my questions, and on that point there are a good many things that I should like to know. In the first place, the Minister is starting on a long programme of 15 years. I have already stated in this House that we on this side are perfectly prepared to go in for such a long programme on proper conditions; but is it to be a 15-year programme on a fixed subsidy of £6, as in the case of the Chamberlain Act? Are we going to guarantee £6 for the next 15 years, quite irrespectively of the level of prices and of the condition of the industry, quite irrespectively of the conditions which may arise in that period, or are we going to have a subsidy which is subject to periodical revision?
Secondly, are we going to have, if we are not going to have a fixed subsidy, any limitation of the liability on the Exchequer? Under the 1923 Act the liability on the Exchequer is limited, and the local authority is left to add to that liability on its own account whatever it may think fit. Is the Exchequer liability going to be limited? If it is, how are you going, for 15 years, to get local authorities pro pared to carry the baby, no matter how much prices may go up, no matter what the conditions may be? How are you going to make an agreement with the local authorities on that basis? You are in the cleft stick between a fixed subsidy which leaves local authorities to carry the baby, and a periodical revision which does not limit the Exchequer liability. Then, may I ask the Minister another question? Where did the Committee, so far as he knows, get the really rather strange figure of 40,000 houses a year under the Chamberlain Act? It certainly does not bear any relation to the figures at the present moment, and I should be glad of an explanation of it.
May I also add something to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) about bricklayers' labourers? It is quite true that the Report, as the Minister has just very kindly pointed out to me, does say that special consideration shall be given to applicants who have had previous experience of the building trade, such as building trade labourers. But that is a very few words in which to dismiss the problem. Here, and in the possibility, mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman), of getting in skilled workers from other industries, lies the real hope of getting any real expansion of houses during the next three or four yeare, and in one sentence that problem is dismissed. Special consideration will be given—under an apprenticeship scheme formed for a very different object; but nothing more. I do say that, if this Report is to be taken as really representing the maximum capacity of the building industry in this country, then we are up against this very serious position, that the organisation of that industry at the present day stands in the way of the production of an adequate number of houses. I hear an hon. Member opposite say "Nonsense," but there are not enough workers in the industry to provide the necessary number of houses. If that industry cannot, except with a delay of five or six years, produce the necessary number of workers, I say that the organisation in that industry is the bar to the production of houses in this country. One says it with no feeling of hostility, but that is the problem that one has to face, and if that be true, we need something very much more than a Report such as we have before us to-day.
I now want to put two other questions of a specific kind. The Minister wants particularly to build these houses so that they shall be available for working men who can only afford to pay a comparatively low; rent, say 6s. or 8s. a week. I quite agree; but it must be remembered that, broadly speaking, new houses have never been built primarily for that class of tenants at any time in the history of this country. If you are going to do it now, you will meet this position, that the only place in which these houses can be built is on the outskirts of the towns—precisely the place where that class of working man particularly does not want to live. That may not be true of Glasgow, but it is certainly true of London and of many towns in this country, and, if the hon. Member who shakes his head knew anything about town planning, he would know that it is true. It is only with the greatest difficulty in the world that the working man living in that class of house in the centre of a town can be induced to move out to the outskirts of the town, where he will have to come in every day to his work, where he will have to incur the expense of travelling, and so on.
May I ask whether the working men to whom the Noble Lord is referring have yet been offered such an inducement to see whether they would go out in that way?
Of course. The hon. Member represents one of the Divisions of London, and he, surely, ought to know, in the case of slum clearances like that which, is now going on in Bermondsey, the immense difficulty that is always found in reconciling the dwellers in those areas to going outside to houses built outside.
As the Noble Lord has mentioned Bermondsey, may I say there has been no necessity to drive those people out of Bermondsey, because they have been found alternative accommodation on the spot?
I really beg the hon. Member's pardon, but I wish he knew more about his own constituency. I tell him that alternative accommodation was only provided within that area for a percentage of the people who were cleared out. The result of these clearances always is that you do not rehouse the people whom you have displaced on the new site outside the town, and the local authorities in the case of slum clearances have always failed to do what the Minister proposes to make local authorities do now under this scheme, and he is going to be up against an enormous town-planning problem when he gets down to practical details. I should like to know whether he has any idea as to how he is going to meet that difficulty. One final question about the Minister's estimate of 100,000 houses as needed to keep pace with the increase of population and the depreciation of old houses.
120,000,
The right hon. Gentleman said 120,000, but I think he was taking into account war arrears as well. At any rate the present figure is 100,000, and I want to ask him how he arrives at it. Before the War, in older to keep up with the increase of population, on the basis of 4½ persons per house, there would have been needed 75,000 houses. During the decennial period, 1911–21, very much fewer than that were required owing to the fall in the birthrate—probably not more than 45,000. My calculation in 1922 was that, probably, 66,000 would be required. Therefore, the pre-War figure of 75,000 is a figure which we are working up to again year by year as the figure necessary to keep pace merely with the normal increase in population. Then we have the depreciation of houses.
Is that for England and Scotland?
3.0 P.M.
Yes, that is for England and Scotland. That will leave 25,000 houses to make up for the annual depreciation. I should like to know how the right hon. Gentleman arrives at those figures. Let me say, in conclusion, that, whatever may be the right figure, whether it be 100,000 or 120,000, we all know that, if we are going to keep up with the increase in population, if we are going to deal with the arrears of the war years, and with the 1,000,000 insanitary houses, in any reasonable space of time, we shall need a programme, at least, of between 150,000 and 200,000. We agree that you cannot work up to that immediately, but I submit that you must, at least, start from the basis where you were in 1922, and ought, at least, to be able to build 100,000 houses, if not more, in 1925. I say that if the Minister fails to provide a scheme which does produce those houses, because he has tried to bring the industry together and, as it were, to trustify the industry, instead of trusting to the encouragement of every individual and every agency in that industry all over the country, instead, in short, of encouraging free competition, if he fails because of that, I think the failure will be his fault, although I know he is bending his serious attention to obtaining a solution of the problem.
My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Sir J. Gilmour) initiated this discussion with a speech dealing with evictions in Scotland, in the course of which he put two or three pointed questions to me, and I rise for the purpose of dealing with those questions. The first question was—I do not profess to use his own language, but I am giving the substance of the question—"Is it not a fact that the number of cases in which proceedings have been taken for the purpose of securing evictions in Scotland pre-War were as numerous as they have been since the War ended?" My reply to that very pointed question is that there were not half, or anything like half, as many cases before the War in which proceedings were taken to secure eviction in Glasgow, as has been the case since the War ended.
Will the Secretary for Scotland excuse me? I do not just grasp that statement. Does he mean that the evictions now are double the evictions before 1914?
If my hon. Friend will restrain himself for a moment I will make myself clear, and it will take up less of the time of the House. The cases in which proceedings have been taken with a view to securing eviction were not half as numerous pre-War as they have been since the War ended. I will give the figures as far as I have been able to secure them. The first figure I shall give is not an official figure, it was secured from another source. The first figure is the pre-War number of cases in which proceedings of that kind were taken. There were something like 10,000 in the two years before the War. For 1923–24 the corresponding figure is 23,531, considerably more than double the number pre-War. But even if as many cases had been taken pre-War as have been taken since, the fact that in Glasgow prior to the War you had a large surplus of empty houses, whereas since the War there has been a shortage of the type of houses we are dealing with when we are discussing this question makes all the difference. The result of the shortage now is that many of the people who have been turned out of their houses have either to go and get lodgings from friends or acquaintances, and in this way increase the amount of overcrowding, or they have to go to the common lodging-house, and we know the tragedy that is involved in a man having to take his wife and children to the common lodging-house. Even worse, they have had to appeal to the police to find them a shelter for the night. There is not possibly such a small number of these cases as my right hon. and gallant Friend had in mind, because I find from the figures that are available in my Department that the number of persons given protection by the police on account of destitution, or, in other words, given lodgings for the night in the cells because of their destitution, amounted to no fewer than 3,664 in 1920. In 1921 there were 15,223— [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"]—in 1922, 54,595; and in 1923, although the figure was rather less, the total still came to 51,598.
Are these the figures of persons or the nights they were given lodging?
It is the number of persons per annum who had to be given protection, or, in other words, to be lodged in the cells by the police. The second question my hon. and gallant Friend put to me was, "Is it not true that far more is being made of the numbers of evictions than the figures justify?" Let me again give the figures that are available. Fortunately, we have figures available that give a fairly accurate idea of the number for Glasgow and other centres. The actual evictions that took place in Glasgow in 1923 and 1924 amounted to no fewer than 996—almost 1,000 cases of actual eviction in two years. When I come to Clydebank, I only give the figure for the present year. In the three months that have elapsed since the beginning of the present year the number of actual evictions that have taken place in Clydebank—the figure is supplied by the town clerk of that burgh—is 12, out of a population of less than 50,000. May I interject here to answer a question put to me from several sources in the course of Question Time yesterday. Of the 12 cases of eviction in Clydebank this year, three were of unemployed persons and one was partly employed. One-third of the cases of eviction in Clydebank in the course of the year were, therefore, men affected by unemployment. I cannot give the figure, asked for by a number of Members, for the other parts of Scotland, but here you have the figures for one part of the disturbed area. It gives you some idea at least of the number of unemployed persons evicted, and the number seems to be higher than the number in the mind of my right hon. and gallant Friend and many others in this House. You have also to add to the number of actual evictions which have taken place the number of people who have left their homes without waiting actual eviction after legal proceedings have been taken against them, and if we were able to give the figures for that the figure I have mentioned of nearly 1,000 would be considerably added to. But apart altogether from the number of actual evictions which have taken place, consider the tragic effect on the women and children which is involved in the fact that in 1923–24 you had proceedings taken with a view to securing eviction in no fewer than 23,531 cases in Glasgow, and in Clydebank in no fewer than 613 cases.
There you have a problem that affects more seriously the women and the children than the men, but do not let us forget that it affects the men in a very serious way. We frequently talk in this House about men seeing red. There is nothing I know which will cause them to see red quicker than the fact that the women and the children are day in and day out in danger of being turned out of their homes in such a large number of instances as the figures I have given disclose. The next question that was put to me by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was that evidently in his opinion the position has been aggravated in Clydebank by a rent strike. Let me examine that statement with a view to seeing whether the tenant is entirely to blame for the position there. The situation in Clydebank is far more serious than in Glasgow itself. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will admit that he tried to put the blame entirely on the tenants.
Upon those who advised the course of action which many of these people have taken.
Let me examine the position even from that point of view, because you cannot dissociate the action which has been taken by the tenant from action which has been taken by someone else outside. Pre-War the position in Clydebank was simply this: There was good trade and higher wages than obtained in the neighbouring industrial centres, with the result that the landlords in Clydebank charged a much higher rental than was charged in other industrial centres in Scotland with a population corresponding to the population of Clydebank. For a single apartment with rates the rents vary from £11 5s. to £18 13s. per year. For two apartments, with rates, the rents vary from £18 17s. to £26 10s. Without rates a two apartment house varies from £19 3s. to £23 4s. a year. For a three apartment house, with rates, the average rent is £26 10s., and without rates it varies from £23 12s. to £29 19s. Those figures show that for the accommodation provided Clydebank is a very highly rented locality. I do not know if you will find another district with a population corresponding to Clydebank where you have rents as high. Since the War the situation has changed. At present trade is bad, unemployment is rife and low wages prevail in many instances, with the result that many of the men are dependent upon the parish council for their maintenance.
I should like to deal with that phase a little more elaborately than I have done with some of the others. The standard of maintenance paid by parish councils in Scotland for a man with a wife and four children dependent upon him is 36s. 6d. Imagine the position of a man with a rent such as I have stated, and with the cost of living standing at no less than 78 per cent, over the 1914 standard. Can you expect that he will be able to pay rent under conditions like that? It cannot be done, no matter how anxious the man may be. If I were to take time to read a little budget presented to me by a housewife last week when I was in that district making my inquiries, you would see how impossible it is for a man placed in that position to meet that heavy rent charge. I come to the man who is employed, but employed under vastly different conditions than prevailed before the War. I refer to the man who is earning wages ranging from 30s. to 38s. a week. In the locality that we are discussing, quite a number of men for a full week's work only get wages of from 30s. to 38s. That type of man is in as desperate a position as the man who is unemployed and being paid a main tenance allowance by the parish council. Therefore, you have two types of men who simply cannot afford to pay the rents that are asked if they are to keep their wives and children in any degree of comfort—I will not say comfort, because that is a wrong word to use—and if they are to keep them alive. Hon. Members must face that issue, because that is a vital factor that is present. That is what hon. Members on this side of the House have been dealing with for so long in order to concentrate the attention of all sections of the people of this country on that central fact.
I will take the next type of man. My hon. and gallant Friend said that there are plenty of men who are in a position to pay rent; that they have wages that would enable them to pay the rents I have mentioned.
I do not think I said that. I said "to pay rent."
To pay rent. I take it that there are men who are in a position to pay rent. That is my hon. and gallant Friend's point. Yes, there are. There are men who are in a position to pay rent who are not paying it.
Hear, hear!
I want to face the facts of the situation. There are men who are in a position to pay rent and who are not paying it.
Why?
My hon. Friend who interrupts represents one of the London constituencies, and if he will give me his attention I will tell him why they are not paying rent. You cannot have rents at excessive figures such as I have mentioned charged against men—I do not care whether the men are in Clydebank or in London—without that having a reaction on the men themselves. There is bound to be a reaction.
No.
Yes.
You would be one of the first.
If we cease to note that fact, we shall not find a solution for the problem with which we are faced. We have to face the facts.
Hear, hear!
I will face the facts, however objectionable they may be, and all I ask is that my hon. Friend will face them. The first reason that these men who are in a position to pay rent are refusing to pay rent is that they are on rent strike. The second reason for the rent strike is that the law in Dumbarton shire, which includes the burgh of Clydebank, is that the landlord cannot charge anything above the 1914 rent from the tenant. The Sheriff Court at Dumbarton has held that the rent is still the 1914 rent. It is true that there is a case pending—
Those are not the 1914 rents that you have read out.
That is not touching the point with which I am now dealing. I was giving as the second reason the fact that the law in Dumbarton is that the landlord is not entitled to charge more than the 1914 rent. A case is pending in the Higher Court which may upset that decision, but up to now that is the position. The landlord—and this brings me back to the point raised by my right hon. and gallant Friend—is insisting upon being paid the 1914 rent, plus the increase that was permitted under the Act.
Yes.
That is in defiance of the law.
They have a law of their own up there.
I have told my hon. Friend that there is a case pending on appeal from the Sheriff Court to the Higher Court, and that may upset the decision, so that it is not true to say that they have a law of their own. Under the finding of the Sheriff Court in their district, these men say that they are not entitled to pay more than the 1914 rent, whereas the landlord insists on getting the 1914 rent, plus the increase, which gives us the figures I have mentioned.
The Sheriff Court will not allow it.
I fear that my hon. Friend does not understand the argument. There you have the position at Clydebank, and I say, quite frankly, that it is a serious position, and one that requires the attention of all sections in this House, because if that position spreads to other parts of the country we shall have a situation that will appal Members of this House before they have finished. My hon. and gallant Friend has said that he is willing to co-operate with any party in an Act to remove the difficulty with which we are faced with regard to evictions and rent. I have been attempting to settle this matter by negotiation, but I can assure him that there is plenty of room for his help to come in with a view to finding a satisfactory settlement. Unlees a settlement can be found, the position we are going to have in Clydebank will be this—and a similar position will arise in any district where a corresponding situation prevailsx2014;that we shall have the civic life of that community strangled. At the moment, the arrears of rates alone in Clydebank amount to £100,000. That is a situation which requires to be dealt with as speedily as possible.
My right hon. and gallant Friend has asked me what is the policy of the Government. The policy of the Government can be very briefly stated. It has been stated over and over again by the Minister of Health and others who have been dealing with this question during the last week or ten days. The Government are going to do all they can to protect the unemployed man from eviction, and I am going to do all that I can, personally, to prevent the second class of man to whom I have referred, namely, the man who is earning from 30s. to 38s. a week, from being evicted. The man who can pay his rent and is not paying it does not require my help, and he is not going to get my help provided that—I hope this is where my hon. and gallant Friend will co-operate with me—he can get the house owner and the House Factors Association, on the other hand, to take a reasonable rent from the tenant. That is where his co-operation can come in. I think that I shall be able to deal with the man who is holding his rent provided that the man who is overcharging his rent is prepared to deal reasonably with the question of rent. I spent two days last week in the Clydebank district dealing with this matter, and I shall be in that district again in a few days doing the best I can to find a satisfactory solution. I regret that the matter has been raised, because discussions such as these are not always the best way to help negotiations. However, I am still negotiating, and I hope that I may be able to find a satisfactory solution of a problem which is not merely serious, but dangerous, and which demands more attention from men on all sides of the House than it has got up to the present.
I understand that another question is to be discussed, and therefore I claim the indulgence of the House while I deal very briefly with the observations that have been made. I was very much impressed by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman). If he will excuse me from going into it in detail, I will promise him that the impression which he has made upon me will be carried into the Chamber where I shall have to consider the matter. There was one thing which struck me about the two principal speeches, the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow (Sir J. Gilmour) and the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy). That is that they actually are afraid of my moderation. They say that we require 200,000 houses a year while I stop at a figure in the neighbourhood of 100,000. They seem to expect that I am going immediately to produce 200,000, and I have no doubt that they would be more delighted even if I could double that number.
They will recognise that I have to deal with the available labour in the country. It is all right for the Noble Lord to say, "Why not begin with the figure of 90,000?" My reply is, because the policy of my predecessors has further reduced the available labour in this country. It is going down year by year. I do not think that there is a great deal to be said for the idea that you can start with unskilled labour, and within a month or two convert it into labour that will be economically useful in the production of houses. At any rate, I have taken the advice of the most skilled men in the country, who have no interest in the matter, and I am advised that I am proceeding on sound lines in training skilled labour and in making the utmost use of the semi skilled labour which is now in the industry. I wish now to reply to one or two questions put by the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings. He asked me how I got the figure of 100,000 houses, which I estimate to be necessary to meet the annual requirements without touching the shortage at all. He himself was good enough to remind me where I would get 75,000 of the 100,000 in the generally accepted percentage of the marriage rate of the country.
That is pre-War.
The Noble Lord told me that it was gradually returning to that figure. Therefore, I have only 25,000 to make up, and I have very little difficulty in doing so. I do not know how many small houses there are in this country, but I know that people who know something of the subject estimate that the number is in the neighbourhood of 6,000,000, and we should require about 60,000 houses a year to meet the want caused by the natural depreciation of those 6,000,000 houses. To some extent we are saved from the necessity of producing 60,000 new houses because the majority of small houses were produced less than 100 years ago, during the period of industrial development, but do not let us forget that, assuming the basic figure to be sound, in so far as we are short of 60,000 houses a year, for the present we must be prepared to make up the average to 60,000 in the years that follow. Therefore I have in my estimate brought the figure to 45,000 which, with the 75,000, gives me 120,000, and I have further reduced that figure to 100,000, and I say that we must get that number or else the shortage will increase.
The Noble Lord has referred to the figures in the Report. I would remind him that the 90,000 houses mentioned in that Report have been stated by the industry as the number of subsidised houses which they are prepared to produce in the first 12 months. It is not correct for him to compare with that, not merely the subsidised houses, but all the houses of the building of which he can obtain information. He asks where do we get the figure of 40,000 as the number which is likely to be produced in 12 months under the 1923 Act, and he puts the number at something like 67,000. May I remind him that there have been 8,000 houses built under the Act in eight months, and that there are only four months of the 12 still to go, and if we produce all the houses that are at present under construction within the four months—and we shall be very lucky if we can do that—we shall then only have some 40,000 houses. The Noble Lord speaks as if he included the number of houses for which arrangements have been made and orders placed. Does he, with his knowledge of the subject, expect that, apart from 30,000 additional houses under construction, in addition to the 8,000 which have been completed, he will get a single one of the other 37,000, or whatever the number is, within the period which has to elapse before the completion of the first 12 months of the working of the Act?
I certainly do say that 67,000 is a very low estimate, and if the right hon. Gentleman will consult the estimates of his own Committee, on page 30, as to the figures of houses now building under the scheme he will see why.
The fact is that in eight months we have got 8,000 houses under the Act. If the Noble Lord thinks that he will get another 60,000 in the next four months he is a very optimistic man. I think that I am optimistic in assuming that we shall get a number that will bring the total up to 40,000. If we can get only 40,000 in the first year, in the flush of enthusiasm over a new Act, and with no additional training to bring men into the industry, how are we to expect that in the second year we will get any more?
Do these include the ten houses per month that we are getting in Scotland?
Yes, I can promise the hon. Gentleman that the ten houses per month which are being produced under the Act of last year are all for the purpose of rent. The Noble Lord mentioned two ways in which I might approach the subject. Undoubtedly there are two ways. I had to get labour. We cannot move until we get labour, and we can move only at the rate at which we get skilled labour. I could have taken the course of compulsion, in one form or another, that has been suggested. The other course was to seek the goodwill and co-operation of all the people concerned. I have adopted the second course. We have made a certain amount of progress. I have reported it to the House, and the pleasant part of the discussion to me has been the assurance of the Noble Lord, speaking, I hope, for his party, and of the right hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman), I hope expressing the views of his party, that each of them is now prepared to support us in a long-term building scheme.
Air Armaments
I venture to call attention to a matter which may have more to do with the happiness of the people than has the important subject which we have been discussing up to the present. I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he can see his way to take a step to limit air armaments, to stop the air race which is now beginning—a race which, unless it be stopped, is liable to result in a catastrophe to civilisation, the like of which mankind has not yet seen. I am told, and I believe it to be true, that the present is a propitious moment for trying to lift the burden which weighs upon all the peoples of Europe, and especially upon England and France. It is a burden not only of expenditure, but of anxiety and mistrust. If the present moment be propitious, as I believe it to be, it is well to ask the Prime Minister whether he can make some statement to us on the subject. May I recall briefly to the House how the matter stands? When there was a fear that this country was in danger from a neighbouring Power, the present Prime Minister put a question to the. ex-Prime Minister on the subject. This is the reply which the ex-Prime Minister gave:
As we all know, great armaments tend to make great antagonisms. Chassepots go off of their own accord, and so the bombing machines will almost bomb of their own accord. Everybody knows it is true—everybody here, everybody in France, everybody in Italy. Of course, we must maintain an adequate air force to protect our own interests abroad. I believe it to be true, and most people who know much more about the subject than I do agree, that for maintaining order amongst savage tribes there is no more humane way than the use of air power, which consists generally in dropping warnings, which are followed by bombs only in rare cases. This is not a controversial question. Although it is held that in dealing with savage countries it may be more humane to use aeroplanes than to employ land forces, yet in the case of civilised countries there is no doubt at all that air power is the most deadly and the most cruel form of warfare ever devised by the wit of man. My right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) made a remarkable speech on the subject of putting a stop to the worst phases of air warfare, and he appealed to the memory of the Duke of Wellington, who had said that such tactics as the bombing of open towns would never be resorted to by a general in the British Army. That is the way in which aeroplanes can and must work. I respectfully appeal to the House, therefore, to face the facts and to follow out the suggestions made by the ex-Prime Minister and the hope which he expressed. One objection that might be made, and it was taken, I believe, by the late President Wilson, is that you cannot limit your armaments, because civil aviation provides a large reserve of war machines which no one will know anything about. The simple answer to that is that the vast expansion of civil aviation which President Wilson foresaw has not come about, and will not come about for a long time, until aeroplanes are far different from what we see them to-day. Moreover, if we can come to an agreement, as in the case of the Navy at Washington, we can trust to a frank disclosure of air power, both civil and military.
But when we come to the advantages, think what the blessings will be if the Prime Minister succeeds in following upon the lines of his predecessor. We shall remove a great burden of expenditure from the shoulders of overburdened people in Europe. We shall, without doubt, tend to reduce the mistrust, and indeed the hatred, which some nations feel for one another, especially when they think they have a means of striking a sudden blow. I cannot conceal the fact that, for me, one of the chief advantages, if not the chief advantage, would be that it would tend to put an end to the growing distrust between England and France, two great countries who were comrades for so long and who ought never to quarrel, but who, if this air race continues, may be led on and on until the whole of civilisation may suffer by a clash between the two. I hope the Prime Minister may be good enough to give us some hope in this matter, and that he may see fit either to summon a Conference of all the Powers concerned or even of only two Powers, following out the lines of the Washington Treaty, realising that the programme we have put forward has been accepted by the late Government and by this Government as being adequate. We may assume that the French preparations are adequate, for whatever else the French do they will always see that their defences are secure. Therefore, on the basis either of stabilising completed programmes or, better still, of reducing programmes, we might both be equally safe, and both be far richer, not only in money, but in good will between the two countries. I hope and pray that something of this kind may happen and that the mists that now obscure the horizon may be dispelled and that France and England may once again be comrades in peace as they were in war.
While agreeing practically with every word that has been said by the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely), I wish to say that he does not speak for everyone behind him when he talks about the humane methods of aeroplane attacks on savages. I want to make that perfectly clear. He does not speak for all those behind him when he lauds that method of keeping foreign tribes in order.
We have listened to a very interesting speech by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Major-General Seely). I can assure him that if I can do anything to make it an important speech, I will be very glad. I have at the back of my mind, not very far at the back of my mind, the intention that as soon as we have cleared away some of the pressing difficulties of Europe, we must face quite seriously this question of armaments; not only air, but all other forms of armaments. I do not know how far my right hon. and gallant Friend has been talking by the book, but if I felt that there was the least chance of receiving a welcome should I make such approaches as he has indicated, I am prepared to do so. I will put it in another way, and I am quite sure that the whole of the House is with me in this: if any invitation is extended by any other Power to help it in bringing about this arrangement, my door is open. I should like such an arrangement to be general. It is of the greatest importance that there should be no reason for misunderstanding—not merely no reason for talking—but no reason for misunderstanding between France and ourselves. It is most important that should be so But, as my right hon. and gallant Friend knows, there are other Powers who are taking part in this unfortunate air race which has, unfortunately, been begun, and I think it would be far better if we could manage to get a sort of Washington Agreement—not merely a bilateral agreement—so that France, Italy, ourselves, and everybody else should feel some measure of security.
The great problem of disarmament is not good will. It is the problem of security. Security is mainly a psyschological problem. If you try to persuade people that they are secure, they will not feel less secure. You can persuade people that they are secure when, as a matter of fact, they are taking steps to smash up any security they might have. Therefore, what the poor diplomatist has got to do is, not only to meet public opinion, but to meet a smaller body of sane men who really know what the real problem of security is, and get them, representatives of every nation concerned, to take wise steps, and to explain those steps to their own people, so that there will be an international feeling of security which will open the door to the arrangement that my right hon. and gallant Friend has sketched. I do not think I need say anything more. It is a matter that has to be considered in its details. Inquiries will have to be made, but he knows that even better than I do. But all I can say—and I think this is enough because I say it without reserve and with all my heart—is that I am exceedingly obliged to him for having opened up this question today, and, so far as I am concerned, it will be a great pleasure if I can carry on the idea which was encouraged by the late Prime Minister, or, I should rather say, ex-Prime Minister, for although I will do my utmost to keep him ex-Prime Minister, I will never lift my little finger to make him a late Prime Minister. It will be a great pleasure, with the hearty co-operation of all sections, to do something to advance the intention which prompted my right hon. and gallant Friend to make his speech.
Fishing Industry
4.0 P.M.
I wish to draw the attention of the House to a question which gravely affects Scotland and is very urgent in Corn wall, and I wish to press the Government for a declaration of their policy on this question before the Recess. For some time past representatives of constituencies interested in the herring fishing industry have been endeavouring to get the Government to come to the aid of the share fishermen in that industry. We have sent deputations to successive Secretaries for Scotland, and it was hoped that by this time some policy would have been announced. The matter is particularly urgent now, because we are on the eve of the opening of the herring fishing season for this year, and it is desirable that all those concerned in the industry should know what are the intentions of the Government in this matter. A special case can be made out for assisting this particular industry. The men, in whose interests I am speaking, are share fishermen, that is to say, they are joint adventurers in the industry—joint owners of boats or joint owners of gear. They have never come under the benefits of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, and in addition to that, they have been the means of keeping off the Unemployment Insurance Fund a very large number of workers who, otherwise, would have drawn upon that fund and would have been a source of great expense to the country.
This curious position has arisen. The fishermen by going to sea and catching herring and bringing; them into the ports of Scotland and England have provided employment for a large number of people—coopers, carters, fish-packers, and numerous other people. In the process of keeping these people in employment, and keeping them off the Unemployment Fund, the fishermen themselves have lost money. Not only have they not made a living as the result of an arduous season's work, but those who own gear have suffered considerable loss. We think we are quite justified in asking that the State should come to the assistance of these men and provide them with new gear, because if they are equipped with new gear they will be able to continue providing employment for other trades, whereas, if they are not so equipped, the whole industry will be seriously handicapped, and there will be a big drain on the Unemployment Insurance Fund as a result of the effect on other trades. The genesis of this trouble is the War. The fishermen came back from their duties in the War—and I will not speak of those duties, because I think they are familiar to hon. Members in every quarter of the House—and found that their nets and gear had considerably deteriorated. They have never been able to make up the leeway since, and in doing their utmost to earn money to keep the industry going, the fishermen during the last season at Yarmouth and Lowestoft went to sea under conditions worse than had been experienced by men at those ports for 60 years. They went to sea in almost impossible conditions in order to try to better their position and escape from bankruptcy.
There has been no "ca' canny" in the herring fishing industry. These men went to sea in the most terrible storms; they were successful in catching quantities of fish, but the destruction of gear resulting from the bad weather was enormous, and at the end of the English season, they found, as far as monetary reward was concerned, that all their industry, courage and perseverance had availed them nothing. They had, indeed, suffered a financial loss on the transaction.
The credit in the herring fishing industry is practically exhausted, and I am willing to admit that, if the Government say the industry is to be allowed, as it were, to stew in its own juice, in the course of time, perhaps, things would right themselves to some extent. No doubt capital would be found in the course of years, but if the State is going to take that attitude, let there be no mistake that it is going to destroy the race of Scottish fishermen as we have known it to date, that is to say, the race of strongly individualistic fishermen, co-partners, independent men, owning their own houses, their own vessels, and their own gear. All the houses in the villages, at all events, along the East Coast of Scotland are owned by the fishermen themselves. They have bonded their houses and their vessels, they have every penny of credit the industry can possibly afford, and they are now in this position, that they are unable to equip themselves with the gear which they require for the coming season. It would not cost a very great deal of money to help these fishermen, and we do not ask that this should be a continuous subsidy. We merely ask that these men should be tided over this period of extreme difficulty, and we are certain that, if the State will provide them with this gear, they will be able with its assistance to look after themselves in the future. From the public point of view, the strength of the case, in my judgment, rests in this, that unless you do this, as I said before, you are going to destroy such a race in this country, and we cannot afford to do it. For the sake of the saving on the Insurance Fund, and for the sake of the welfare of the nation, what I am recommending, I am sure, is good and sound economy.
I said there was no "ca'canny" in the herring fishing industry. I can tell this House of a village community in my own constituency where there is no harbour accommodation of any kind whatever, and where there is a large fishing population, the men owning their own houses. Owing to the failure of the industry during recent years, these men have been in very great poverty, and they have had to work under weather conditions under which, in normal times, they would have stayed at home. There is no harbour along that coast, and the men found that there were many days when their boats could have lived in the sea if they could have managed to get them launched, and the men of that community have actually themselves, during last summer and the summer before, made a valiant attempt to construct a harbour of their own. By their own unaided efforts, without machinery, simply by putting their own strength into the business, they have laid the foundations of a small boat head—it is rather pathetic—in order they may go to sea under conditions when it would otherwise be impossible, in order to save themselves the risk of being swamped, and partly to save the labour of pulling the vessels up on to the beach and down again when they go to sea. That is an illustration, I think, which proves that this type of people are people who do not cry out before they are hurt, and who are extremely willing to help themselves. I hope the Secretary for Scotland will be able—because it is an open secret up and down the coast that the Department have a scheme under consideration—to give us some encouraging news to-day, and that, if he cannot produce this scheme this afternoon, he will at all events tell us that he has a scheme and that he intends to produce it at the very earliest possible moment.
I wish to add a very few words to all that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastern Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. F. Martin) has said regarding this matter. When he rose, I noticed a certain uneasiness in some quarters of the House because he said he wished to raise a Scottish matter, but I can assure all my hon. Friends in this House, from whatever part of the country they may come, that, serious as this matter may be from the Scottish, and especially the North of Scotland point of view, it is an equally serious matter for the whole of the country. I need not recall, except in a very few words, all that has been said in this House from time to time during the last few years as to the magnificent work that the drifters of the Moray Firth and the Eastern Coast did during the War. It has been well said by many that but for the energies and the risks these men took from day to day during all those years, it is quite possible that on many an occasion the Grand Fleet would not have been able to go to sea. What is their position now? Since the Armistice, they have been literally struggling to get on their feet again. The Government at one time did come to their assistance, and for that they were very grateful, but now the position has really become more acute than ever.
It is no new subject that my hon. Friends are raising in this House, for, on the Scottish Estimates last year, we drew the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to the fact that, unless something was done, and that early, the position indeed would be very grave, and that is the position we have arrived at now. My hon. Friend who spoke immediately before me said he understood the Secretary for Scotland had a Report of some sort on the matter which he was personally considering. I understand the Fishery Board for Scotland, who are the appropriate authority in this matter, have made a Report, and that they made it some time ago, and the Secretary for Scotland, with his usual courtesy, when we met him at the Scottish Office not long ago, informed us he was going to give the matter his very serious consideration. What we would like to know is, what has been the result of that very serious consideration to which he has given this Report? The matter is exceedingly urgent from many points of view.
There is one feature of the case to which my hon. Friend did not refer. If there is one feature of it more distressing than another, it is that the young men of these communities, since the end of the War, have been unable to do practically any work. For those who do not understand this particular industry, I may say the way these young men begin, at 16 or 17 years of age, is, first of all, by getting a job on board one of the herring drifters. Then they try to purchase, with money they have saved themselves, or obtained from their friends, a few nets, and so they make a start in life. But these young men, from 18 to 21 years of age, have never been able to get a start, and are hanging about, many of them, doing nothing, and the only thing to which they can resort is emigration. We wish, if we possibly can, to keep them in the country, but there is nothing for them to do. They cannot get nets, or jobs on board the boats, and they are forced to go abroad. Unless, therefore, the Secretary for Scotland makes up his mind, and the Government's mind, to come to their assistance, the damage will be done, and they will be quite unable to rectify it.
There is another point in connection with the supply of nets. There are but a few net factories in the country, and the men in those factories, seeing no work for them, have gradually drifted away to other trades, and the Secretary for Scotland need not think if, in the course of the next week or fortnight, he makes up his mind to come to their assistance and supply these nets, that he will get them in a day. The normal number of nets required for the industry will take the herring-net factory some 18 months to supply, and if the Government loan any money to these fishermen—because, I understand, they are not willing to grant it, although we would like it—the nets cannot be made to the quantity required under something like 18 months. But a small supply can be furnished now, because I understand there is a, small stock in the hands of the people who supply these nets. This is an urgent matter. There are some 250,000 people altogether dependent in one way or another on the herring fishery, and there are 1,000 boats altogether in the Moray Firth and the other fisheries represented by the hon. Members for Caithness and Fifeshire.
About half of these boats only will be able to go to sea, and the men will be hanging about the villages and the harbours, and I think I need not tell the House how difficult a matter that then becomes. There was a suggestion made that owing to the fact that the markets on the Continent were closed down that the herring fishermen were getting enough herring to supply the existing markets. I speak from experience. I have just visited the districts. I know what I have seen and what I have been told, and I can say that there is a market for all that the fisherman can catch, if they have the gear and the wherewithal to get the fish. I hope that the Secretary for Scotland, who doubtless realises the importance of this matter, will see that something has to be done and has to be done now in the way of helping these men, who, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen said, cannot get loans or cover themselves in other ways. If they cannot get some assistance it will be a great pity, for I am sure that hon. Members will wish to do what is possible for these gallant men who did their bit during the War, and who deserve every encouragement they possibly can get.
I am very glad indeed that a plea on behalf of the fishermen has been brought before the House. The plea that has been put forward has been mainly on behalf of the Scottish fishermen. I want to bring forward, for the consideration of the Minister, a plea for all the fishermen in the country. The fishermen, with the agriculturists, are engaged in the two industries that produce the food of the people of the country. The fishermen also are a grand race of men, and they have been going through very hard times, certainly in my own constituency. They are proud. They are having very distressing times, and I do feel that we in this House ought to speak on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves. The fishermen and the agriculturists are the backbone of the country, and deserve every consideration that can be given by the support of Members and the help of the Minister.
I know that the time is short and that other Members desire to speak on this important question. On the general question of the fishing industry as a whole and the Government's attitude towards it I would only say this; that the industry has been neglected by previous Governments, is being neglected by the present Government, and ought promptly to be assisted, not by doles, but by measures such as those suggested, on the one hand, by the Trawling Inquiry Committee and, on the other hand, by my hon. Friends, the Members for East Aber-deenshire and Banffshire this afternoon. Nobody who has ever spoken on behalf of the fishing industry, which, by its constitution and by virtue of the character of those engaged in it, is perhaps of all the industries of this country the most independent, has ever demanded doles or subsidies over a long period of time. What is wanted is just well-thought-out and well-directed assistance on the lines suggested by my hon. Friends which would enable the industry to stand on its own feet and forge ahead under its own power.
There are two points I desire to emphasise. One is in regard to supply of nets and the other in regard to markets. Let me quote a few figures to illustrate the situation in my part of the world. In the harbour of Wick last winter there were 42 boats. Of these only 18 were fishing—the other 24 were laid up. Of the boats that were laid up, more than half were laid up entirely because the men had not nets to enable them to go fishing and as to the remaining portion lack of gear was an important contributory cause. In Wick, in 1919, in the winter fishing there were 35 boats engaged. In 1921 there were 29 engaged; in 1922–25; in 1923–23, and last winter 18. These figures show that as the nets were wearing out, the fishermen were unable to replace them, owing to the hard times through which the industry was passing, and that the lack of gear was directly reflected in the declining number of boats fishing. In the last Debate on this subject the Secretary for Scotland said that the fishing industry had taken a better turn. That was quite true. The figures, however, show that, unless facilities are given to these men for obtaining gear, they are not in a position to take advantage of the opportunity, and that, in spite of the quantity of fish to be caught, and the high prices to be obtained, the boats cannot be manned for lack of gear. As affecting the actual situation to-day, I would like to mention that of those 18 boats I have referred to, which were engaged in the winter fishing, the average loss was 17 nets per boat, and consequently they are now, with summer fishing coming on, in a worse position than ever they were before.
The other point is the question of markets. We have been told that there are ample markets for the herring to be sold, but I think we should have an assurance that the market with Russia, which is by far the most important, although I agree that Germany is also important, should be assured. The Norwegian Government arranged for the sale of 150,000 barrels of herrings on the Russian market last summer. At that time Norway had not recognised the Soviet Government and surely our own Government, now that they have recognised the Soviet Government, ought to be able to do as much as that for the fishermen of this country. We should not let this matter depend upon the political negotiations which are now going on with the Russian delegates, because they may collapse; they will probably be spun out interminably and will, in any event, be protracted well into the summer herring fishing season.
One last word in reply to the speech of the Secretary for Scotland—the speech he made on the occasion of the last Debate on this question and which I venture to hope he will not repeat to-day. There are two arguments in particular in that speech to which I desire to reply. In the first place, I have never belonged, since I was a Member of Parliament, to a Party in power and have never been, therefore, even indirectly responsible for the actions of a Government and I do not, therefore, attempt to defend the action of any previous Government in regard to this matter, although the Coalition Government gave a measure of assistance to the fishing industry far greater than anything we are asking for to-day. Surely we all want to discuss this question without any party feeling, but with the single-minded desire to do the best we can for the fishermen of Scotland. Therefore any arguments drawn from the records of previous Governments leave me cold.
The second argument to which I wish to reply is the appeal which the Secretary for Scotland always makes on the ground of the short time the Government has been in office. On the first occasion on which we raised this question they had only been in office three weeks and, I confess, my heart warmed towards the difficulties of the Secretary for Scotland after so short a time to obtain a grasp of the great responsibilities and complicated duties of his office. Then it was 5 weeks, then it was 9 weeks, and now I have altogether lost count of the number of weeks and, therefore, that argument leaves me very lukewarm.
This question of providing gear is vital to the fishermen. I have been well advised on this matter by my friends in Wick. They made a point of it at the beginning of last year and I immediately recognised its importance. I kept on urging its importance all through the last Parliament even when some of my hon. Friends had misgivings on the point, and now the whole fishing industry is unanimous upon the point that the first and primary need of the industry is the getting of these supplies of gear. The fishing season is upon us, and there is no time for further vasillation.
The case was put in a nutshell by the Provost of Wick, at the recent Convention of the Royal Burghs, when he well said that, if the Government were careful of the harvest of the land, why should they not be equally careful of the harvest of the sea? I know the Secretary for Scotland is a good Scotsman, and is thoroughly sympathetic. But he has to deal with the Treasury, and when he next goes to interview the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I hope he will put a poker down his back, and take his written resignation in his hand, and I appeal to him to insist, as it is in his power to do, on prompt action, which will give the fishing industry its chance at last.
The last speaker has made reference to the three, five and nine weeks of the Labour Government, but, speaking as one representing an industrial community, I say that we as a party have always taken a great interest in the fishermen of Scotland. Last autumn I was deputed on behalf of the party to go down to Oban in order to find out the wages received by the fishermen. It was criminal neglect on the part of the last or of any Government that neglected the demands of the fishing people of any part of our country, and it is criminal neglect on the part of those in charge if at any time they allow any part of our food-producing organisation, especially, to go into decay and cease to be kept up to a proper standard of efficiency. While we agree that nothing should stop any Government from giving fishermen ample supplies of gear, what we want to point out is that, while we are in favour of that, the retail price of herrings, for instance, now carries with it not only a handsome wage for every fisherman, but also a handsome wage for everyone who handles the fish. We realise, however, the kind of fact that I discovered when deputed to do so, that on Oban pier herrings were laid down at less than ½d. per pound—the price was 16s. 7¾d. a cran, and there are 3½ cwt. in a cran—while in Glasgow they were being sold at 6d. and 8d. per pound, and the cry of the retailer was, "Ah, it is the railway companies." But I went to the railway companies, and got the receipts to show that they carried, from Oban to Glasgow, 5 lbs. of herrings for 1d., which meant that the fish were put on the market in Glasgow for less than 1d. per pound. If we were sane in dealing with our foodstuffs, it would not be necessary for the fishermen to-day to have men in this House to plead for their rights. If we were sane as a community, that which is in the retail price would automatically go back to pay the men who really are at the basis line, so far as the supply of fish is concerned. Here we have to-day, by a process of legalised swindling, the fruits of the labours of the fishermen passing into the pockets of a few scoundrels called middlemen, in Glasgow or any other city.
Including co-operative societies?
Co-operative societies do not come into the picture at all. If they did, the hon. Member would know more about it. We not only stand for the fisherman having his rights recognised, but we hope that our men on the Front Bench are going to surpass all that has been done in the past by other Governments to keep that pride in the fishermen, and to see that they are not robbed of their labour to such an extent that they are left to plead for their right of existence when overtaken by some misfortune of weather or anything else. Our party will, I hope, see that all that is true of the pride of the working man, especially of the fisherman, shall be preserved.
I happen to belong to an organisation which represents a large proportion of the people engaged in the production of the gear which these men have to use. I had the honour a short time ago of receiving a deputation of representatives of the fishing industry, who thought I was important enough to ask me to receive them, an honour which I very greatly appreciated—not because I am worth it, but because sometimes I think I am not altogether recognised in particular quarters. I happen to represent men and women engaged in the production of the nets the fishermen have to use. I was informed by this deputation that if they could get some assistance to try and tide them over their evil days they would be able to find work for the large number of men and women out of employment in various fishing ports throughout the country in consequence of their own lack of employment. I do not know much about fishing. I like fish to eat, but I would not like to go and catch it. But I cannot understand the statement about lack of gear, because there are a large number of the members of my own trade union engaged in the production of gear who are out of work.
It is the lack of money to purchase the gear.
One hon. Member said something about lack of gear, and I took him at his word, and I could not understand it.
It is because your people are not making gear that our people have not got it.
That I understand.
It is the system.
It is the system, of course. We understand the system. The system is a rotten one. I understand there is a craving for individualism, but the very individuals who are singing the praises of individualism are now asking the State to help them. If individualism is such a grand system, why ask the nation to find the money for running that system of industry? Individualism ought to have been able to provide for all the necessities of the people engaged in it. The weather is wrong. Why cannot you nationalise the weather? You cannot individualise it! Here you are asking the nation to take the risk, and we on these benches agree that no body of workpeople ought to be placed in such an unfortunate position that they are reduced to conditions of starvation because of circumstances over which they have no control. We have always stood for that position. We ought to take our common risks and our common burdens—the nation as a whole ought to bear the risk. "The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" ought not to fall upon the individual. We have had references to "this sturdy race of men." We have got a sturdy race in the East End of London. Forty thousand of the people in my district went out to fight in the War, and they fought valiantly. One regiment was wiped out—only one man left. They are just as good as any Scotch fisherman, just as much worthy of the support of this House. They fought as hard against the common enemy as any Scotchman or Irishman or Welshman.
And got as little.
Got less. No bouquets are thrown down the East End of London. I am supporting these men because of the service they rendered to the nation. They are entitled to all the credit we can give them, and all the support we can give them, and on behalf of the members of my own union who supply them with the gear they require to carry on their undertaking I hope they will get the necessary support from Ministers.
I should like to reinforce the appeal which has been made by hon. Members in all quarters of the House. There is no doubt that we are dealing here to-day with a very peculiar type of man—a brave, silent, proud man. Many classes of the community have been vociferous in the past about their difficulties and troubles, but one great characteristic of our fishermen is that of all men they are the last to expose their own difficulties to the world. I feel sure that because of that the House of Commons would be only too anxious and willing to support not only the Scottish fishermen but the fishermen all round the coast in their endeavour to get for themselves a livelihood from the harvest of the sea. We know what these men have done. We know that without their assistance in stormy seas, in calm seas, in bad weather, in good weather, with the submarine menace, our great and majestic Navy could never have ploughed the seas and brought food and comfort to the people of this country, and even in peace time men who man the great lifeboat service in the stormiest and most dangerous weather have been badly hit.
The hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) very rightly alluded to the bravery of the men of the East End of London, and I admit it, but the fact remains that the men there by their occupations have been accustomed in the past to get doles. These fishermen are precluded from the advantage of getting doles, and they have had to endure all the rigours of the War as they are enduring now the rigours of peace. I am standing here to make once again an appeal to the Secretary for Scotland. An hon. Member above the Gangway has said he hopes his party will be the first to come to the relief of the fishermen. I do not care what party comes to their relief but I hope relief will come to them on the lines which we are advocating to-day. I want the right hon. Gentleman to put into effect the whole of the provisions of the MacKenzie Report upon trawling. I want him to see that the policing of the shores is adequate, and, above all, I want him to come to their assistance, not merely by loans, but by grants for their boats and nets. Day after day under the Trade Facilities Act we find great loans granted to powerful trading companies all over the country. We find all our Dominions getting loans. We find, quite rightly, every corner of the Empire having the millions of this country and the taxpayers' money spent upon it, and when we make one appeal for the proud and silent class in the scattered communities round the shores of this country, we are met, it is true, with sympathy, but the day for sham sympathy is past. I know of no one who is more willing to express sympathy and, with his large heart behind it, to do what he can, but I should like him to get the co-operation of all his colleagues, as he is getting the co-operation of all parties in the House, in the appeal which has been made to-day for a great and gallant class of men.
I merely rise to add my voice to the appeals which have been made to the Secretary for Scotland to do something, and at once. The coasts of Scotland have become a vast foreshore. It is not a new problem at all. It did not arise when the present Secretary for Scotland took office. Long before the War the fishermen along the Clydeside were ruined by that cursed individualism, that cursed capitalism which some of our Friends who sit below the Gangway on this side of the House still support. The fishermen would have a bad catch and come into the harbour, and then they had to get their foodstuffs from the local merchant, who usually charges them 300 per cent, to 400 per cent, profit. He took their boats and nets in pawn when they could not pay. He overcharged them in every possible way, and these poor fellows, long before the War, were living a serf's life. Individualism was a word that was meaningless to them. They toiled in stormy seas, fought against difficult weather, and had a thoroughly hard life, with barely anything to show for it for themselves and their wives and children. After all this, these men are held up to us as the fine flower of the individualist system. I will let the individualists have the credit of it.
Two problems are involved. First of all, there is the problem of markets. The Government can do something there. They can do something, through the Russian Trade Delegation, to restore the Scottish market in herrings in Russia. There is, also, a market in Glasgow. There are people in Glasgow wanting herrings who have not the money to buy them. They are starving, while people in the North of Scotland are starving because they have too many herrings and cannot get people to buy them. That is a. job for a Socialist Secretary for Scotland. Never mind the individualist excuse, that has been going on for such a long time. We can produce the food and we have the people who are running to eat it, and all that has to be done is to set the hungry mouth in relation to the willing producer. That is a problem for the present Secretary for Scotland, and I am sure he is big enough to tackle it if he gets time.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down said these men want grants or credit facilities. We have seen great, wealthy trade organisations, organisations making 35 per cent, profits, coming here and getting credits amounting to £3,500,000. One organisation which makes 35 per cent, profit came here and secured £13,000,000 of credit, and here we are on behalf of the finest race of people in the world begging, and for what—begging for a sufficient sum to allow them to get the implements in order that they can go out to reap the harvest of the sea. If I know my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, I know that he is a fighter. Let him go into this fight knowing that he has the solid backing of every Member from Scotland. We are not going to allow these people to starve any longer. Credit facilities schemes should be put in operation so that the fishermen can start work, and we must see to it that they have markets, so that they may earn a living and there may be prosperity instead of starvation, ruin and pawnshops as at the present time. At the same time, let my right hon. Friend do something to limit the extraordinary ramp in the coal prices which are charged to these poor devils who go out to the seas.
I do not want to talk about Socialism or individualism. I have only one word to say, and that is on business. I cannot add to the case for the fishermen, which has been so well put by my colleagues from Scotland, but I would like to say that if the Secretary for Scotland has any scheme to put forward he can rely upon every one of us to co-operate with him. As far as my own constituency is concerned, I can assure him that if he has any scheme to assist the fishermen, I will undertake to see that that assistance goes into the right hands.
My hon. Friends above and below the Gangway have been making earnest appeals on behalf of the fishermen. Like them, I am anxious to get the necessary funds to help to tide the fishermen over their difficulties. I appreciate the fact as much as anyone else that, owing to the state of the foreign market, the fishermen have been passing through a very critical time. I also appreciate the fact that the recent storms have added considerably to the difficulties of the situation, because of the considerable number of nets that were lost during that time. As I stated on the last occasion on which I had to say a few words in regard to this matter, the prospects so far as the foreign markets are concerned are better, and the problem that we have to face is to put our net fishermen—because this is a proposition which applies only to the line fishermen— in a position to be able to take advantage of the improved foreign market. Since the matter was last discussed I have been busy looking into the question, and what I have had in mind was securing for the fishermen loans for a certain period to enable them to get over their difficulties.
I am in communication with my colleagues the Minister of Transport and the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding the matter. As my hon. Friends know, it is not a question which rests entirely with me. If it rested with me it would possibly be overcome very quickly, but there are others besides myself concerned. I am in communication with them, and I can give the assurance that the matter is receiving their earnest consideration as well as mine, because this difficulty of the fishermen is not altogether one of enabling them to overcome the difficulties to which I have referred, but as the hon. Member for Stirlingshire (Mr. T. Johnston) has pointed out, there is also the question of transport, which is of considerable importance, and that is receiving our close attention. In reference to this question of illegal trawling to which the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) has called attention, this question is not escaping my attention. Appeals have been made recently for a mitigation of the sentences upon men who have been convicted and heavily fined for trawling within the prescribed limits. These appeals have fallen on deaf ears. The fishermen involved in this matter require assistance to such an extent that we cannot afford to mitigate the penalties inflicted on those who are engaged in illegal trawling. Generally speaking, the matters referred to are under serious consideration, and, so far as I am, personally, concerned, I will do all that I can to secure the necessary assistance for the men involved in the appeal which has been made so eloquently by my hon. Friends. I am sorry that I am not in a position to give a definite reply at the moment, but I hope to be able to do so before long.
Would the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give a definite reply when the House reassembles?
I hope so.
Is it not possible for this very simple matter to be arranged through the Trade Facilities Act?
Has the right hon. Gentleman made a specific request to the Treasury for a grant or loan? If so, what has been the reply?
The hon. Member is asking too much when he puts that question to me. As to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. W. Greenwood), I have already said that the scheme which I have in mind is a scheme for granting to the fishermen loans on certain conditions. There are other ways, as I have previously stated. I believe that if the fishermen were to form themselves into a co-operative society, and if they were to apply to the Government in the same way as agricultural co-operative societies apply, they could get assistance from the Development Fund.
Miners (Wage Dispute)
I want to put a question to the Minister of Labour. It is a question of great interest to the House, to the industrial community, and to the country generally. It concerns the present position of the coal mining industry. In view of the fact that the old agreement as to scales of wages expires to-morrow, and that no new scale has yet been agreed upon between the delegates of the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation, is the Minister able to tell us whether there is likely to be a. stoppage of.work, partial or total, to-morrow? It is most important that the House should have this information before it rises. I understand that the delegates of the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation have met to-day in order to attempt to arrive at a temporary agreement which would prevent a stoppage, pending the finding of the Buckmaster Committee. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the result of that meeting? I understand that the position is that if the delegates fail to arrive at a temporary agreement, a most serious position will arise to-morrow. The present position is very obscure. We ought to know what arrangements have been made. When the pits are opened to-morrow, are the owners opening them on the terms of the old agreement or on the terms of the recent offer of the owners, or is it left to the discretion of the various districts to do what they think best? Is any arrangement which is come to a day-to-day arrangement, or is it subject to the usual fortnight's notice on either side. It would be most disastrous if there were even a temporary stoppage. Everybody must do what is possible to avoid it, and I am sure that the Minister of Labour wants to avoid it. Just one more question. Can he tell us whether the terms of reference to the Committee under the Chairmanship of Lord Buckmaster, published in the Press this morning, were submitted either to the Mineowners' Association or the Miners' Federation before they were published for their approval, and is he satisfied that those terms of reference limit the scope of the inquiry merely to the points in dispute? It is most important that they should be limited to the points in dispute, in order that we may get a finding as soon as possible, and the whole question cleared up. If they are not limited to the points in dispute, the inquiry may go on for many months, and we shall not get a finding until very much later.
In the absence of my hon. Friend and colleague the Secretary for Mines (Mr. Shinwell), I will try to give the House the actual position to date so far as I know it. The House will recognise that in all these negotiations the conduct and action of the Government have devolved on the Secretary for Mines. It was at his suggestion that I set up a Court of Inquiry on the reference stated in the Press this morning. I believe that the terms of reference are such as to give satisfaction to the principal objectdesired, the ascertainment of the facts, so that miners, mineowners and the public might know exactly what is the state of affairs. The Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey (Viscount Ednam) himself has referred to a meeting which is taking place to-day. So far as I know from the Secretary for Mines, there is not the slightest likelihood of a stoppage taking place, and the Committee of Inquiry composed of Lord Buckmaster, as chairman, Mr. Roscoe Brunner, as a representative employer, and Mr. A. G. Cameron as a representative trade union official, will begin its meetings in the near future. I think there is every prospect, not only of avoiding a stoppage, but of coming to an understanding which I hope will bring peace to the mining industry for a very considerable time to come. That is the message I have to convey to the House. I hope that what I feel is likely to take place, will be realised.
In view of the terms of reference published to-day, has there not been a narrowing down of the points to be considered in view of what was agreed on? For instance, it was understood that we were to have some method whereby the Committee could investigate the high retail price of coal and give the reasons for it. Are they going to take steps to examine the invoices where the coal leaves the mine, and the prices at various points, and see what the people in between receive in the way of profits, so that we may find out who is doing the swindling?
Obviously, having set up the Committee to inquire, and having fixed the terms of reference, it is scarcely to be thought that a Minister of State will tell the Committee exactly what he thinks it ought to do. That would be an abrogation altogether of the idea underlying a Committee of Inquiry. The idea underlying that Committee is that certain men with special qualifications should bring judicial minds to bear on a problem, and the terms of reference are sufficiently wide to cover the circumstances, and to bring about, I hope, the desired result.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at One Minute before Five o'Clock until Tuesday, 29th April, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this Day.