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Commons Chamber

Volume 177: debated on Thursday 9 October 1924

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 9th October, 1924.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

London Electricity Supply (No. 1) Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

London Electricity Supply (No. 2) Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Private Bills (Dissolution Of Parlia Ment)

I beg to move,

"That the Promoters of the Private Bills which have been brought from the House of Lords in the present Session of Parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereon in order to proceed with the same, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than One o'clock To-morrow, and that all fees thereon due up to that period be paid."
This Order, standing in the name of the Chairman of Ways and Means, is quite a customary Order to ask the House to pass when they anticipate a Dissolution, and the purpose of it is merely to provide that promoters of Private Bills may suspend proceedings, and to afford facilities for them to renew them in the next; Parliament. There are many precedents for it. It has been done on frequent occasions. It is mentioned in the "Parliamentary Practice," and I hope the House will see their way to follow precedent, and pass this Motion.

some of us feel very strongly on this motion, but, in face of the particular circumstances, we are not inclined to divide against it, after the appeal made by the deputy-chairman of Ways and Means.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered,

"That the promoters of the private bills which have been brought from the house of lords in the present session of parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereon in order to proceed with the same, if they shall think fit, in the next session of parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the committee and private bill office not later than one o'clock to-morrow, and that all fees thereon due up to that period be paid.
That every such bill shall be deposited in the committee and private bill office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the house shall sit after the next meeting of parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the bill is the same in every respect as the bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this house in the present session.
That Bills to confirm any provisional order or certificate introduced into this house, or brought from the house of lords, in the present session shall be suspended from the close of the present session, in order to be proceeded with in the next session of parliament.
That the proceedings on every such private bill or bill to confirm any provisional order or certificate shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages.
That the standing orders by which the proceedings on. Bills are regulated shall not apply to any such bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present session.
That all Petitions presented in the present Session against any such Bills shall stand referred to the Committee on the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament.
That this Order be a Standing Order of the House."— [The Deputy Chairman of ways and Means.

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

Standing Orders

Standing Order No 9A—(Publication Of Notice Of The Objects Of The Bill)

I beg to move, in lines 12 and 13, to leave out the words "or Edinburgh."

This amendment and the following amendments on the paper are not of very great importance, but they have been on the order paper for a long time, and they are required for the purposes of procedure. They are only connected with the actual publication in the "gazette' of the objects of a bill sought to be promoted in this house. There is an ambiguity in standing order 33, where it is not clear whether in regard to a Bill affecting Scotland it must be publication in the "Belfast Gazette." That is removed by the Amendments to the Standing Order on the Order Paper. Similarly with regard to Northern Ireland, there is a complete hiatus in the Standing Order, and to remove that difficulty we are simply expressly providing that there must be publication in the "Belfast Gazette." The last Amendment of the Standing Orders is that a copy of a Bill affecting Northern Ireland must be deposited with the Home Secretary. Those are the purposes of the Motion. I am in the hands of the House, but if the Amendments can be passed by the House to-day it will be a matter of great convenience.

I rise to take exception to the Motion. I think it would have been wiser on the part of the Deputy-Chairman if, instead of moving to leave out the words "or Edinburgh," and then to insert later the words

"and if any powers are sought by the Bill which affect Scotland or Northern Ireland shall be also published once in like Edinburgh or Belfast Gazette,'"
he had altered the words to "and Edinburgh," because it has to be borne in mind that there are many people in Scotland who have property connections in England. In fact, I think must of the property connections in England belong to Scotsmen. If the hon. Gentleman were to withdraw his Amendment., and move an Amendment on the lines I have suggested, it would meet with the general assent of the House. But, as it stands, it inflicts a very great hardship upon many people in Scotland who have to look up the "London Gazette," which they do not always find very easy, to discover notices relating to various properties. I, therefore, suggest that this Amendment be withdrawn, and, when the House resumes, an Amendment on the lines which I have suggested could be brought in to meet the difficulty.

If it be the general desire that this should not be taken now, I do not want to press it. With regard to the point made by the hon. Member, I think that the object he has in view is served by the Amendment, because if the word "and" were inserted, publication would be necessary both Gazettes, which is exactly what the Amendment of the. Standing Order provides, and if it were not done in the form we have proposed, it would not apply to Northern Ireland, and the two purposes would not be served. After that explanation, I hope the hon. Gentleman will support the Motion.

I am sorry I must persist in opposing it, because if the words I suggest would do any injustice to Northern Ireland, it must be an easy matter to meet the point. Might I suggest. that these notices should be published both in the London and Edinburgh "Gazette" simultaneously; that the word "and" should be inserted to cover that difficulty; and that the words which the hon. Gentleman has already down be left in, to make the matter proper for Northern Ireland. I must take objection to the Motion as it Stands.

There is another point. I have not the Standing Orders before me at the moment, but when we come to the next Amendment, apparently, it would be possible, in the case of a Bill affecting Scotland, to publish it in the Belfast "Gazette," and for a Bill affecting Northern Ireland to publish it in the Edinburgh "Gazette." I suggest that the hon. Gentleman wants to put in the words "as the case may be," or "respectively" to make it clear.

In view of the remarks which have been made, and the views expressed. I think it will be in accordance with the sense of the House if I do not press this Motion, but leave it over to the next Parliament. I, therefore, beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Oral Answers To Questions

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

Appeals

1.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the desire of pensions committees that the time limit on appeals in connection with final awards should not apply in any case where a statutory award was made before the 19th August, 1921, having regard to the fact that no individual notice was sent direct to the pensioner informing him of his right of appeal in these cases; and will he take steps to abolish the application of this time limit where no individual notice has been served upon the pensioner?

I am aware that the suggestion referred to in the early part of the question has, among others, been made. I fear that the proposal made by my hon. Friend in the last part of the question would not be practicable. It has not been possible to issue individual notices to all persons affected by a statutory final award. for the reason that the Ministry have not necessarily any knowledge of men to whom compensation has ceased to be payable. The difficulty, however, to which he draws attention is one to which consideration is being given. At the same time, would point out that effective steps have been taken by me to deal with cases in which, as the result of medical treatment and observation, it is found that an award is, owing to a serious error of medical fact or judgment, found to have been erroneously declared final.

In view of the hardship arising in many of these cases, can the right hon. Gentleman make some slight concession in order to meet the circumstances?

All cases of hardship are certainly considered, and the representation made shall he borne in mind.

Will the Pensions Minister say why, so far as the Government is concerned—not this Government, but any Government—some alteration should not be made whereby a man may have his appeal Irrespective of the time limit?

I am afraid I can add nothing to the answer which I have already given.

Out-Patient Treatment (Allowances)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will revise the Regulations which prevent an ex-service man who is undergoing outpatient treatment from receiving any monetary allowance even when the disability for which he is being treated prevents him from following his normal occupation?

I fear that I am not in a position to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion. I may, however, state that at the present time there are on an average over 6,000 men undergoing outpatient treatment who are in receipt of full allowances under Article 0 of the Royal Warrant.

Central Advisory Committee

3.

( on behalf of Captain BOWYER)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that there has been no meeting of the Central Advisory Committee for over 12 months; and what steps he proposes to take to call this Committee together at an early date?

Yes, Sir. In the reorganisation of Advisory Councils, which I have succeeded in carrying through, one of my objects has been to secure a more effective representation of local opinion on the Central Advisory Committee, which in my judgment was formerly somewhat deficient in this respect. It will, I hope, now be possible to have a meeting of the re-constituted Advisory Committee at an early date.

Tubercular Cases (Life Pensions)

4.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he has yet found it possible to take any steps in the direction of awarding life pensions to ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis as a result of their War service?

I have considered this matter with my medical advisers. I am advised that it would not be in the best interests of the men concerned to make final awards of pension on any general scale in cases of tuberculosis, having regard to the fluctuating character of this disease. It is, however, my intention to secure that, as far as possible, awards for prolonged periods shall be made in all possible cases.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to take the necessary steps to revise the Old Age Pensions Regulations, so that the actual income received by old age pensioners may be taken into account when estimating their income and not a hypothetical sum calculated at the rate of 10 per cent. return on part of their savings?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by the Financial Secretary on the 31st July last in answer to a similar question.

Motor-Car Licences

7.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many motor-car licences have been taken out. since 1st August; and how the number compares with that of last year?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am unable to give the hon. Member the information for which he asks, as the Returns for September have not yet been received from local authorities. I shall, however, be issuing very shortly a Return showing the licences issued during the three months ended 31st August, and will arrange for a copy of the Return to be sent to the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these, under the new circumstances, are foreign cars?

Capital Levy (Poland)

8.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has any information that the Polish Government has abandoned the levy of capital which was originally introduced for the years 1924, 1925 and 1926?

Egypt (Ottoman Loans)

9.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer v hat is the position of the bondholders in the Egyptian Tribute?

The three loans in question are the guaranteed loan of 1855 and the loans of 1891 and 1894. The interest on the loan of 1855 is guaranteed jointly and severally by the. British and French Governments, and accordingly the bondholders will continue to receive payment of the interest due to them. The loans of 1891 and 1894 are not guaranteed As regards all three loans, His Majesty's Government regard the contentions of the Egyptian Government as entirely inadmissible, and are considering the whole matter in consultation with the representatives of financial interests in this country and with the other Governments concerned.

Will a report be made when these financial expects have considered the matter?

I will ascertain that. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me notice in the next Parliament, when I shall be able to answer the question.

( by Private notice)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether. during the recent conversations between t hr Prime Minister and Zaghloul Pasha, the subject of the Ottoman loans secured on the Egyptian tribute was discussed, and, if so, whether the Prime Minister can give any information regarding them, for the benefit of the very large number of bondholders interested.

I am so sorry, but I have not received that question.

I can say. without having had notice, that the sub- ject was discussed. I brought it before Zaghloul Pasha in the shape of a memorandum, to which I have received a reply.

Loan To Germany

10.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if all the Allies will participate in the £40,000,000 loan to Germany?

I understand that negotiations are now being conducted by the German Government with this object. I have good hopes that the adequate participations will be secured.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what proportion of the loan will be issued in this country?

Ex-Service Men

Mental Cases

1l.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the possibility of extending national responsibility for mental ex-service patients retrospectively, so as to cover the period from 1st October, 1922, to 31st March, 1924, during which national responsibility was disavowed?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the Abertillery Division (Mr. G. Barker) on the 8th October.

Civil Service

12.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Southborough Committee in their final Report have made no recommendations regarding the treatment of disabled men; and whether, in order to give private firms a lead in more satisfactorily supporting the King's Roll, he will give an undertaking that all competent ex-service men shall be granted security of tenure?

The Southborough Committee, as the hon. and learned Mem- ber is no doubt aware, have recommended that 25 per cent. of the marks at the examination for ex-service men should be allotted on a departmental report as to the candidate's performance of the duties required of him in a temporary capacity, and in allotting these marks it is intended to give special consideration to cases of grave disability. With reference to the second part of the question, I would remind the hon. and learned Member that, while not more than 5 per cent. disabled ex-service men qualify an employer for inclusion on the King's Roll, disabled ex-service men in the Civil Service constituted as much as 14·54 per cent. of the total staff, male and female, permanent and temporary, on the 1st August, 1924.

Is it not a, fact that there are certain blind men employed as typists on a temporary basis? Is there any reason why that should be so?

That obviously refers to a particular Department, and I shall require notice to go into the details. I can, however, assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that every consideration is being given to disabled men under these proposals.

( by Private Notice)

asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the fact that no opportunity has yet been afforded the House to discuss the Southborough Report he will at least suspend the forthcoming examination for ex-service men temporarily employed in the Civil Service until after the Election?

The arrangements for this limited competition are well in hand and I could not agree to suspend them. But it is not anticipated that the examination can take place before the beginning of next year arid, as my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal already indicated, it reply to a question from my hon. Friend on the 2nd October, the Government are anxious that the earliest possible opportunity should be provided for discussion of the Southborough Committee's Report.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the matter again, because of the great anxiety of which. many of these men, who have given efficient service—some of whom are over 40 years of age while others are over 50—and in view of the general feeling that it is not expedient to submit these men to examination, will he reconsider suspending these examinations until we can fully discuss the matter?

I think there need be no anxiety regarding the present position. About 18,000 ex-service men have applied to sit for this examination. There is no chance of it being held before the early part of next year, and there will be before that time a full discussion of the Southborough Committee's Report in the House.

Is there any reason why the hon. Gentleman could not allow these men, who are suffering very considerable anxiety, at any rate to realise that in the next three weeks this matter is being suspended until the new House meets?

Will the hon. Gentleman also considers these points—that the Deputy-Leader of the House promised a day for the discussion of this subject, and that these ex-service men were depending on a definite promise made by the Prime Minister that they should not be subjected to this examination?

What does the hon. Gentleman mean exactly by the "early part of next year"— January, February, March, or when?

It is impossible at the moment to name an exact, or even an approximate, date for this examination, but, I have no doubt whatever that it will be held in the early part of next year. That is really the reply to the other part of the question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman), because for all practical purposes this is in suspense, and the examination will not be held until next year. Of course, there is a promise of a day for discussion in the House.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are 30,000 men concerned and, on his own figures, 18,000 of them have entered for the examination, and are at the present moment spending money for the purpose of preparing for the examination. The vacancies available are only 5,000 according to the Southborough Report, less than a third of that number, and in view of that fact and of the desire of the House and the promise of the Ministry, which will be the promise of any Ministry, that there will be a discussion, does he riot think, in view of the services of these men, that it will be quite fair to say now that the whole thing is suspended until the House has decided?

I feel I could not add anything to the reply I have given. The truth is that the Southborough Committee was representative of all parties in the House, its Report was unanimous, and it has been adopted by the Government. There is nothing to be gained by suspending the arrangement. The position is protected by the discussion which will take place a good long time before any examination is held.

Horses Exported

13.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the present conditions relating to the export of horses for slaughter; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?

I have carefully inquired both officially and privately into the conditions relating to the Export of horses. No worn-out horses an allowed to be exported from this country. All horses exported to the Continent are subjected to a uniformly rigid veterinary examination immediately before shipment. Officers of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals acknowledge that the standard of fitness imposed by the Ministry's port inspectors is a very high one, and that no horse which is unfit to travel and to work without suffering is passed for export.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the public that the Society for the prevention of Cruelty to Animals have said that they are satisfied no cruelty exists?

The society is not in a position to state what happens abroad. The only practicable method to be adopted is that of setting a very high standard in regard to quality of the horses exported from this side. Our standard is an exceedingly high one.

But are the society satisfied that every precaution is taken on this side to see that no cruelty arises?

Is there any objection, in view of the fact that there are excellent abattoirs in this country, why all these animals should not be slaughtered before export?

This is a most important matter, but I do not see what we can do beyond setting an exceedingly high standard for export, which we do. If any higher standard can be suggested, it shall be carefully considered.

Unemployment (Government Proposals)

14.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the steady rise in the number of unemployed persons and of the approach of winter, His Majesty's Government have any new proposals to lay before Parliament for increasing employment during the winter months?

The proposals of the Govern-merit for providing employment, in view of the probable increase in unemployment with the approach of winter, were outlined in debate on the 30th July. Progress has since been made with the development of the measures then referred to. Many schemes of work approved for Government grant are in operation, and others will shortly be commenced. The Government would not hesitate to come to the House for authority to adopt new proposals should this be required. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a brief summary of the proposals now in hand or in active preparation.

Are we to assume that the Government have no new proposals other than the ideas that have already been outlined?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman may assume that if he likes. It was not in the answer.

Will the number of the unemployed be largely added to after to-day?

Arising out of the supplementary question, may I ask the Minister of Labour if he is making any arrangements for dealing with the large amount of unemployment there will be in Members on the opposite side after the Election?

Will the Minister please inform us to what. unemployment exchange we shall have to approach to get our money?

So far as the first supplementary question is concerned, I am not aware that either on this side or the other side hon. Members are insured!

Following is the summary referred to:

The proposals of the Government for the coming winter include:—

  • (1) Grants by the Ministry of Transport towards the cost of schemes for the construction and improvement of roads and bridges;
  • (2) Grants by the Unemployment Grants Committee to Local Authorities and Public Utility Companies towards the cost of miscellaneous works of public utility.
  • (3) Grants by the Ministry of Agriculture (and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland) for schemes of land drainage, etc.
  • (4) A considerably extended programme of afforestation.
  • (5) Experimental reclamation of land on the Wash.
  • (6) Acceleration of contracts by Government Departments.
  • (7) Further guarantees under the Trade Facilities Acts.
  • (8) Assistance in the form of a subsidy to the sugar beet industry.
  • Progress is being made with other schemes, such as the Severn Barrage, and steps toward considerable electricity

    development are being discussed with the representatives of the industry.

    19.

    ( on behalf of Captain BOWYER)

    asked the Minister of Labour how many extra men are being employed as a result of the new schemes of work started by the Government since they have been in office?

    I have looked into the existing returns, and find they do not enable a reliable figure to be given for the total number of men employed on relief work schemes. It is not practicable, without quite disproportionate expense, to obtain figures separately for old and new schemes, but I am considering whether it will be possible to obtain and issue periodically figures for men directly employed on Government assisted schemes.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many have been employed on any new schemes in connection with the Wash?

    Housing

    Shrewsbury (Shortage)

    16.

    asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, as a consequence of the shortage of housing accommodation in the town of Shrewsbury, industrial workers in the town have to cycle, in the absence of other transport facilities, 15 miles or more, morning and night daily, to share cottages in the occupation of farm workers, who suffer terrible overcrowding; and will the Ministry press on the Corporation of Shrewsbury the urgency of building more houses in the town?

    My right hon. Friend is aware that Shrewsbury, in common with many other places, has a very serious need of additional housing accommodation. He thinks that the hon. Member may take it that the Council are fully alive to the necessities of the situation, and, in addition to the houses already contracted for, they are at present negotiating for the erection of a further instalment of houses.

    17.

    asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been built in the rural parishes of the Shrews- bury Parliamentary division of Shropshire since the 1923 Housing Act came into force; whether the total number is below the average for similar divisions; and, if so, has the Ministry taken any steps to press the urgency of building more on the rural authorities?

    The number of houses completed in tile rural districts of Atcham and Chirbury during the year ended the 31st March, 1924 (the latest period for which full figures are available), was 44. My right hon. Friend does not think that it is practicable to institute such a comparison as the hon. Member suggests. As the hon. Member may be aware, a circular was addressed to all local authorities in August last, explaining fully their powers and duties under the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924.

    Have any houses been started under the Labour Government's programme of housing?

    Building Schemes

    18.

    ( on behalf of Captain BOWYER)

    asked the Minister of Health how many horses up to date are approved; how many are under construction; and how many have been completed under the lousing Act, 1923?

    161,441 houses have been authorised to date under the Housing. Etc., Act, 1923. On the 1st September, the latest date for which information is available. 26,347 houses had been completed, and a further 50,524 were in course of construction.

    Is it not a fact that a very much larger number of houses have been built hr private enterprise, in addition to these subsidised houses?

    Hoar many of these houses were built under the present Minister of Health, and, can photographs of them be circulated before the House disperses?

    A large number of the houses for which I have given the figures were built under the present Minister.

    Can the Parliamentary Secretary give an answer to the last supplementary question, as to the number of houses built under the 1923 Act?

    I can assure the hon. Member that the figures I have given are correct. The greater proportion of these houses actually built or under construction have been built this year under the regime of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

    Could the hon. Gentleman inform me how many of these houses were built under the Chamberlain Act, and how many under the Wheatley Act?

    All these houses have been built under the Chamberlain Act during the time my right hon. Friend has been in office.

    Can the hon. Gentleman state, then, if I am correct in saying that, when he said that these houses were built under the present regime, he meant that it was under the Conservative Act of the last Parliament?

    Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how many of these houses were built to be sold, and not to let?

    11.

    asked the Minister of Health if he will consider the advisability of requesting the local authorities to allow builders who are erecting houses under the 1923 Act to be allowed the full period mentioned in the Act, October, 1925, instead of any shortened period.

    I consider it desirable in administering the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924, that local authorities should only undertake to give subsidy in respect of houses likely to be completed within a reasonable time. It is always open to a builder who finds he is unable, owing to causes beyond his control, to comply with such a condition, to make an application for an extension of time, and I have no doubt that local authorities would act reasonably in dealing with such an application.

    Epsom Rural District (Scheme Isapproved)

    12.

    asked the Minister of Health why the scheme of the Epsom Rural District Council to erect 20 houses at Banstead and 20 at Burgh Heath was disapproved by his Ministry, seeing that even this scheme will only partially meet the crying need for houses, that many families are living in cottages condemned as unfit for habitation, and that at least 72 cottages are inhabited by two or more families.

    The tender prices obtained by the District Council were so high, having regard to the accommodation to be provided in the houses, that I did not feel justified in sanctioning the Council's proposal. The hon. Member will appreciate that it is vital to the success of- the housing scheme that prices should be kept at a reasonable level. If snore favourable prices can be obtained by the Council, I shall, of course, be very glad to consider them.

    Post Engineers Office,Bristol

    20.

    asked the postmaster General whether he is aware of the conditions existing at the engineer's office, 238, your road, Bristol, which is a poor class warehouse, and not designed for an office at all; that the premises are over crowded the ventilation bad and the heating unsatisfactory has been abnormal during the past two winters; and seeing that the offices are in a dirty state and that there has been a request from the staff for better accommodation and in view of the better of the matter, will he investigate the disadvantages from which the staff suffer with a view to remedial action?

    I am aware that this office is now overcrowded and otherwise unsatisfactory, and arrangement are being made for the early transfer of the staff to other more suitable premises.

    India

    Waziristan Operations

    21.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the number of British and Indian casualties since 1st January, 1924, at Razmak, in Waziri-stan; whether he is aware that the troops only receive now ordinary pay and peace rations and ration allowance, though to all intents on active service; whether he is aware that the tents are unserviceable and leaky, and that numerous complaints have been received; and will he restore the active service pay which has formerly been customary to those quartered on the North-West Frontier?

    The casualties in the force at Razmak for the period from 1st January to the 31st August, 1924, were as follow:

    (1)Indian Army:
    Killed in action and died of wounds6
    Wounded27
    (2)British Army:
    Killed in action and died of wounds2

    It is the case that since 1st April of this year field service concessions have been withdrawn from the troops serving at Razmak. As I informed the hon. and gallant Member for Melton (Sir C. Yate) yesterday, however, an enquiry has been addressed to the Government of India whether any of these concessions should be restored, and my Noble Friend will consider the matter on receipt of their reply. I have no information to lead me to suppose that the tents are unserviceable or that numerous complaints have been received. I may perhaps inform the hon. and gallant Member that at Razmak a large proportion of the troops are now quartered in comfortable stone-built barracks.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is no bazaar whatever for the troops there, that the hospital accommodation is totally inadequate, and, in view of all these casualties, can he not see that the troops are put back under active service conditions approximating to the ordinary cantonment lines?

    I have just said that my information is otherwise. We have made representations to the Government of India.

    Moslems And Hindus, Punjab

    22.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the virulence of the vernacular papers in the Punjab which has been instrumental in increasing the communal tension between Muslims and Hindus that has led to so many outbreaks and deaths of late at Delhi, Kohat, and elsewhere; and whether the Secretary of State will now consider the question of the responsibility imposed upon the Government of India by the repeal of the Press Act?

    Some inter-communal animosity has been exhibited in the Press of the Punjab which is, perhaps, rather the result than the cause of the ill-feeling between Moslems and Hindus. It has not been unchecked, and within the four months ending with August there have been nine prosecutions of the persons responsible for articles in newspapers or pamphlets intended, in the words of the law,

    "to promote feelings of enmity or hatred between different classes of His Majesty's subjects."
    As to the Press Act, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies given to his questions on the 7th and 14th April last.

    Will the Under-Secretary say whether any of these prosecutions have been withdrawn?

    Depressed Classes

    23.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State fur India whether his attention has been called to the address presented to the Governor of the Central Provinces by the Depressed Classes' Association, calling attention to the incessant demand put forward by the higher castes for immediate Swaraj for India and pointing out the danger that if the grant of complete Swaraj be unduly accelerated the last hopes of throwing off the burden of caste domination will be finally extinguished, and urging an investigation into the conditions of the submerged classes of India; and if he can state what steps are being taken by the committee now sitting in India on the working of the Government of India Act of 1919 to give full consideration to the appeal of these depressed classes for just and fair treatment at the hands of the higher classes?

    I have not seen the particular address referred to, but am aware that views of a similar kind have been expressed in other resolutions and addresses of representatives of the depressed classes. I am not aware whether the Committee of Inquiry referred to in the question has regarded the consideration of such appeals as falling within the scope of the questions referred to them.

    Mr Justice P R Das

    25.

    asked the Prime Minister if he has received any communication from Mr. Justice P. R. Das, of the Patna High Court, acting on behalf of his brother, Mr. C. R. Das, the leader of the Swaraj party; and whether he can give any information to the House as to the purport of this communication?

    I have received no direct communication from Mr. Das, though I understand he wished to see me. I must protect Mr. Das, however, against the insinuation that he has been acting on behalf of his brother.

    Floods, Punjab

    ( by Private Notice)

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will give the House the latest information he has regarding the disastrous floods in the Punjab; what arrangements have been made for relief of those affected, and what loss of life and property has been caused by the overflow of the river Jumna or in other ways?

    My Noble Friend has no information beyond what has appeared in the Press.

    Inter-Communal Disturbances

    ( by Private Notice)

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether serious riots between Hindus and Mahommedans have broken out at Allahabad; how many people have been killed or injured; whether British and Indian troops were employed to restore order, and whether any other outbreaks in other parts of the country have occurred?

    I have not yet received any official report regarding the riots at Allahabad which to-day's Press messages from India, describe. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a note on inter-communal disturbances which have occurred recently at a few places in India.

    Cannot the hon. Gentleman undertake to get the information? Surely it is very important information for this House to have. It seems to me rather strange that he should have none to give beyond his very sketchy reply.

    I suggest that the hon. Member should wait for the Report which I am circulating.

    Following is the Note promised:

    Statement Regarding The Disturbances During August And September, 1924, Between Hindus And Moslems In India

    The most important day of the Festival of the Muharram was the 12th August. The processions connected with the ceremony was carried out without any important breach of the peace throughout British India. But on the previous day there occurred at Gulbarga in the Nizam's dominions a serious collision between the two communities. On the 23rd August there was a less important incident of the same kind in Bhagalpur in Bihar which was stopped by the police after 12 persons had been injured. On the 30th August a Hindu procession was attacked with stones by Moslems in Nagpur, in the Central Provinces, and there was some looting, but order was quickly restored. Eleven persons were injured, of whom one died in the hospital.

    There was a riot between Hindus and Moslems on the 9th September at Kanod, a small town in the State of Indore, caused by music played by a Hindu procession in front of a mosque. Eighteen Hindus were reported to be injured.

    On the 9th and 10th September, serious disturbances occurred in Kohat in the North West Frontier Province. They originated in the publication of a scurrilous anti-Moslem pamphlet. The actual violence commenced with shots fired in panic by Hindu residents of the city. The disorder was accompanied with incendiarism and looting, and very large material damage was caused before order was restored with the help of the troops. Almost the whole of the Hindu popula- tion of the city (though not of the cantonment) left the place for Rawalpindi. The casualties ascertained are as follows—police, 6 injured; Hindus, 20 killed, 24 seriously injured, 62 slightly injured, 16 missing, of whom it is believed 9 are unidentified bodies included among the 20 killed; Mohammedans, 11 killed, 6 seriously injured, 17 slightly wounded. There have been large recoveries effected of the loot carried off by neighbouring villagers, and on the 19th September it was reported that the city was now quiet. A full report by the Chief Commissioner of the Province has been called for by the Government of India.

    On the 12th September, fighting between the two communities broke out in Lucknow City as a result of protracted bickering. The immediate occasion was a clash between hours of worship in one locality. Here also the troops were called in to patrol, but there was no fighting and the casualties were not numerous, only four deaths and thirty cases of injury having been reported.

    On the 22nd September similar fighting began at Shajahanpur in the United Provinces. Quiet was restored next day, but rioting occurred again on the. 24th, and military assistance was called in from Bareilly. The troops were sufficient to maintain order and to disperse gatherings of villagers who attempted to enter the city. The total casualties reported here up to the 25th September were six killed and 104 wounded. Full reports regarding these riots in the United Provinces are expected by mail.

    Honduras (Murder Of British Subject)

    24.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can communicate any information relative to the reported killing of Charles Edward Rimmer, a British subject, at Puerto Castilla, Honduras, on the 21st August, 1924?

    According to a report from the British Consul at Trujillo, Mr. Edward Rimmer, of Liverpool, was murdered by a labourer on the 21st August. The Consul stated that the local authorities were taking measures for the capture of the murderer.

    Courts Of Summary Jurisdiction (Procedure)

    5.

    asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce a measure to provide that in courts of summary jurisdiction the magistrate, or the magistrate's clerk, shall at the beginning of the proceedings explain to the accused, in ordinary language, the offence with which he is charged and the method of procedure of the court?

    My right hon. Friend would be glad if the procedure in courts of summary jurisdiction could be simplified, but he cannot promise immediate legislation to the effect suggested in the question.

    China

    Does the hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Ayles) wish to put his Private Notice question about China?

    The notice which I sent to you, Sir, of a question with regard to China was with a view to its being placed on the Order Paper in the ordinary way, and not to its being put by Private Notice.

    Russia (Anglo-Soviet Treaty)

    ( by Private Notice)

    asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a statement in the Press that, when the AngloRussian Conference had practically broken down, the Russian Delegation announced that unless settlement was reached they would have some public disclosures to make which would be detrimental to the British Socialist Party in general, and some of its leaders in particular, in connection with certain intrigues and dealings with Moscow, an exposure of which would possibly involve the resignation of several members of the British Government, and that, in consequence, the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs was instructed to come to an agreement of some kind with the Russian Delegation forthwith; whether there was anything which occurred in the course of the negotiations to justify the above serious allegations; and whether he is prepared to lay Papers giving an account of the concluding stages of the Russian Agreement?

    I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir; my attention has been called to the statement referred to by the hon. and gallant Member. It emanated originally from an article appearing in a newspaper—"Le Temps du Soir"—pubished in Paris by Russian Whites, and has been copied in several organs of the Continental Press. This article gives what purports to be the official explanation of why the agreement was signed by His Majesty's Government. I will give a verbatim translation of the facts as related:

    "Through the intermediary of a young woman who had recently gone to Russia ostensibly as an artiste, a large number of exceedingly beautiful Russian jewels had reached England. These jewels, emeralds, diamonds, precious stones, pearls whose beauty and weight were quite remarkable, were sent to six members of Mr. MacDonald's Cabinet, who, all six of them, are part of the managing committee of the 'Daily Herald.' These remarkable consignments were delivered in the form of chocolate boxes, and each jewel was concealed inside a chocolate. Further, care had been taken to warn the recipients to take no risks with their teeth. And not one of the hon. Gentlemen refused the present returning it to the sender! Therefore, when Moscow said, Sign, or we shall give the names of your six comrades who received and kept our chocolates,' what could MacDonald do but sign!"
    This story, like many others which have appeared with regard to these negotiations, needs no comment.

    Does the hon. and gallant Member think it quite dignified to pursue the matter?

    I desire to say that the quotation which I sent to the Prime Minister from a newspaper bears no resemblance whatever to what the hon. Gentleman has quoted from a Paris paper.

    I do not want to treat this matter lightly at all, but may I not ask my hon. Friend, arising out of this matter, whether this story is not very typical of many others which have been put about in connection with the signing of this agreement?

    I think it suggests that Members should be rather careful about accepting what they see in the Press.

    Members Of Parliament(Railway Vouchers)

    ( by Private Notice)

    asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he can state what arrangements have been made in regard to the use by Members of their railway vouchers, in the event of the Dissolution of Parliament?

    The following arrangements have been made, and I would ask hon. Members to co-operate as closely as possible with the authorities of the House in securing their observance

  • 1. A Member may, if necessary, use one voucher for the single journey to his constituency immediately after the Dissolution. (Where, of course, a Member holds the return half of a ticket entitling him to return to his constituency, the use of a further voucher will not be necessary.)
  • 2. A Member will retain possession of his current book of vouchers, and will be at liberty to commence using them, as before, immediately on re-election.
  • 3. A Member will not use any vouchers during the period between the use of the special voucher under No. 1 above and his re-election.
  • 4. A Member defeated at the poll will return his book of vouchers immediately after the declaration of the poll.
  • 5. A Member in possession of a book of vouchers, and not seeking reelection, may retain one voucher for use as under I above, and will return the remainder of his hook to the Fees Office.
  • 6. A Member will be asked to reimburse the amount of any fares covered by vouchers the use of which is not in accordance with the above provisions.
  • Dissolution Of Parliament

    General Election, 29Th October

    Prime Minister's Announce Ment

    May I ask the Prime Minister if he has any statement to make to. the House?

    I regret that the action taken by the two Opposition parties yesterday rendered an Election inevitable. I, therefore, have had an audience with His Majesty this morning, and asked for a dissolution. His Majesty empowers me to announce that he has consented.

    In considering further arrangements, I felt that I should be meeting the wishes of all parties in the House if I did my best to avoid clashing with the municipal elections. The difficulty was whether it would be better to hang the Election over until the municipal elections had been cleared out of the way, or whether it would not be better, and far more convenient, to try to get the General Election over before the municipal elections.

    The Government were very anxious to reduce the inconvenience of the Election to a minimum. By a careful study of the position, we have found that it will be possible to have the Election over before the municipal elections take place. The proposal, therefore, is that this afternoon this House will be prorogued, and the Election will take place forthwith. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] The Dissolution to-night will mean that nominations can he made on Saturday, the 18th October. and we can take the Election on Wednesday, the 29th October.

    May T. ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in connection with the dates he has just announced, the position has been made clear that this House will not dissolve until the Irish Free State Bill has been passed?

    Yes. In accordance with the pledge I gave the other day, we have seen that the Irish Free State (Confirmation of Agreement) Bill is safe. I understand that another place has made no alteration, and that there is no difficulty. Had it not been for that, the dates that I have just announced could not have been arranged. It is on the supposition that the Irish Bill will receive the Royal Assent this afternoon, and that other formal business will be transacted immediately afterwards.

    May I ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what date was contemplated for the Imperial Conference, to which, I understand, he has invited representatives of the Dominions, and what arrangements be is making about it in view of the Prime Minister's announcement?

    I have not had notice of this question, and can only say that nothing that happened last night should, in our opinion, interfere. with the Government going on with their proposal.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will he possible to consider at that conference the Geneva Protocol?

    That is a Foreign Office affair, and it must be the subject of representations to the Dominion Government.

    Can the Prime Minister say whether it will be necessary for the new House of Commons to meet this year, in order to pass the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill?

    Yes. We have also taken that into account. There are two small Bills, which are very important, that must be passed this year, unless very great public inconvenience is to be caused. One is the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and the other the Property Bill—a Bill dealing with the law relating to property.

    It is a Bill to postpone something or other. I am informed that that Bill must be passed, Unless a great deal of public inconvenience is to be caused. I understand that any time up to the 31st December will do for that Bill. The intention is that the House of Commons shall meet reasonably soon after the Election.

    May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Election will take place on the 29th October, Parliamentary sanction is required, or, if not, have the Cabinet made any arrangement, in regard to the continuance of the British Empire Exhibition and any Government guarantee?

    That is at present in negotiation with the Dominions. I believe it can be settled without Parliamentary sanction. I had it in my mind when I said that we would meet conveniently after the Election, say, just a week or two later, in order to give Members an opportunity of having a little rest before they resume their duties.

    May I ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Tory Magistrates' Committee in Glasgow have shut the halls in Glasgow against Labour Members, as the first part of their campaign? [HON. MEMBERS: "Sundays!"]

    My attention has been drawn to the matter, and I am inquiring into it.

    May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in regard to the dates which have been taken carefully into consideration, he is aware that the Autumn Register does not come into force, and is not ordinarily printed and available for use until the 15th October; and, having regard to that fact, can any steps be taken by the Government to expedite the publication of the Registers, so that they may be available for the use of candidates in reasonable time for the Election?

    My information is not quite in accordance with what has just been stated by my hon. Friend. My information is that, while the Register comes into operation on the 15th October, it is circulated on the.8th October. As a matter of fact, the Registers ought to have been delivered yesterday. That was one of the things which we took into account, to see whether the dates would be convenient.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in all up-to-date constituencies the Registers are ready now?

    Is it possible to give an approximate date when Parliament will re-assemble after the Election?

    I think that will be stated in the Proclamation—somewhere about the 18th or 20th November.

    Education (No 2) Bill

    "to enable students to travel to places of education free of charge," presented by Mr. LIVINGSTONE; supported by Captain Wedgwood Penn, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Falconer, Mr. Comyns-Carr, Mr. Thomas O'Connor, Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy, Sir Charles Starmer, Mr. Hogge, Mr. Raffan, Mr. Foot and Mr. Millar; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 258.]

    A Royal Commission has been appointed for six o'clock to-day. I propose, unless a Message come from the other House at an earlier time, to leave the Chair until that hour. In any event, I will cause the bells to be rung five minutes before I resume the Chair.

    Sitting suspended at Ten Minutes before Four of the Clock.

    Prorogation

    His Majesty's Most Graciousspeech

    I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the High Com- missioners, delivered His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:

    My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,

    My relations with Foreign Powers continue to be of a friendly nature.

    The acceptance of the Dawes Report by the Powers concerned was confirmed by the Conference held in London in July and August, when practical measures required in order to allow of the recommendations being put into force were unanimously approved. This happy result is due to the broadminded spirit of co-operation with which the very difficult problems involved were approached by the Powers concerned. I believe that this settlement will contribute largely to the restoration of international commerce, on which the material prosperity of this country so largely depends.

    Following the close understanding reached between the British awl French Delegations at Genece, the fifth Assembly of the League of Nations by formulating proposals for dealing with the problem of general arbitration and security has made an important advance on the road to the reduction of armaments. The issue of its discussions has been embodied in a protocol which will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible, and which it is hoped will lead to the first practical measures for lightening the heavy burdens under which the nations are suffering.

    My Government have renewed diplomatic relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and have concluded with the Government of the Union the two Treaties which have been laid before you. These Treaties have for their object the re-establishment of political and commercial ties between Great Britain and Russia as a necessary element in the general pacification and economic reconstruction of Europe.

    Under the terms of the Treaty the question of the frontier between Turkey and Iraq has been, referred to the Council of the League of Nations, who have decided to appoint a special Commission to report to them on the matter. Pending a final settlement both parties hare undertaken to maintain the status quo on the frontier.

    I regret that, as explained in a Paper recently laid before you, the informal discussions with the Prime Minister of Egypt did not lead to negotiations which might have resulted in the conclusion of a satisfactory agreement. In the absence of such agreement the position of my Country in relation to Egypt will continue to be governed by the policy adopted when, the Protectorate was withdrawn.

    Steps have been taken by My Ministers in conjunction with the Governments of My Dominions for the formation of a committee to devise means for the more efficient marketing in this country of various articles of food.

    Members of the House of Commons,

    I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.

    My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,

    Though there are, I am glad to say, signs of distinct improvement in some of the principal industries and in certain branches of trade and commerce, severe depression continues. My Ministers have been actively engaged in the development of a constructive policy with, a view to stimulating industry and encouraging trade as the only means of dealing fundamentally with the unemployment from which a large proportion of our fellow-citizens are still suffering. Meanwhile, the measures taken by My Ministers for the provision of increased and continuous unemployment benefit have not only lightened the burden upon the ratepayers in the most necessitous areas, but have also alleviated the sufferings of the innocent victims of industrial depression.

    The measures taken by My Ministers, with the support of Parliament, to enable Local Authorities and the building industry to engage in a fifteen years' uninterrupted building programme will, I hope, afford an effective remedy for the serious overcrowding which continues to be a source of grievous harm to the character and physique of many hundreds of thousands of My people.

    Steps have also been taken by My Government to assist agriculture by loans to Farmers' Co-operative Societies and by increasing grants-in-aid of agricultural education and research. An Act has also been passed to regulate the wages of agricultural labourers in England and Wales.

    The taking of a new Census of Production, together with various other inquiries which have been set on foot, will, I hope, afford valuable indications of the directions in which the industrial and commercial organisation of the country can be improved.

    The advance of educational development has been freed from the restrictions recently imposed upon it and the lines for further progress have been laid down towards a more universal system of secondary education.

    In bidding you farewell, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.

    Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read in the House of Lords.

    After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:

    MY LORDS AND MEMBERS,— By virtue of His Majesty's Commission under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to His Majesty's Commands, Prorogue this Parliament to Friday, the thirty-first day of October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued until Friday, the thirty-first day of October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four.

    End of the First Session (opened Tuesday, 8th January, 1924) of the Thirty-third Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the Fifteenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George the Fifth.