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Commons Chamber

Volume 179: debated on Monday 15 December 1924

House of Commons

Monday, December 15, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

High Court of Justice (King's Bench Division)

His MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO ADDRESS

reported His Majesty's answer to the Address as followeth:

I have received your Address, praying that in pursuance of the first Section of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1910, two Judges may be appointed to the High Court of Justice to fill vacancies in the King's Bench Division thereof, and I will issue directions in accordance with your desire.

13th December, 1924.

Members Sworn

The following Members took and subscribed the Oath:

Right honourable Joseph Austen Chamberlain, Borough of Birmingham (West Birmingham Division).

Francis Nicholas Blundell, esquire, County of Lancaster (Ormskirk Division).

Major Charles Ainsworth, Borough of Bury.

Private Business

Aberdeen Harbour (Rates) Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],

Edinburgh Chartered Accountants Annuity, Etc., Fund Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],

Scrabster Harbour Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],

Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ]

Consideration deferred till To-morrow.

Ancient Monuments Preservation Order Confirmation Bill (suspended),

Standing Order of 9th October, 1924, relating to Private Bills read;

Ancient Monuments Preservation Order Confirmation Bill (suspended in the last Session of Parliament) read a First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

ADJOURNMENT MOTIONS UNDER STANDING ORDER No. 10

Return ordered "of Motions for Adjournment under Standing Order No. 10, showing the date of such Motion, the name of the Member proposing, the definite matter of urgent public importance, and the result of any Division taken thereon during Session 1924 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 136, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Business of the House

Return ordered, "showing, with reference to Session 1924, (1) the total number of days on which the House sat; and (2) the days on which Business of Supply was considered (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 137, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

CLOSURE OF DEBATE (STANDING ORDER No. 26)

Return ordered, "respecting application of Standing Order No. 26 (Closure of Debate) during Session 1924, (1) in the House and in Committee of the Whole House, under the following heads:—

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

Date when Closure moved, and by whom.

Question before House or Committee when moved.

Whether in House or Committee.

Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Speaker or Chairman.

Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion.

Result of Motion and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.

and (2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:—

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

Date when Closure moved, and by whom.

Question before Committee when moved.

Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Chairman.

Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion.

Result of Motion, and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.

(in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 138, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Private Bills and Private Business

Return ordered "of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into the House of Commons and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1924, classed according to the following subjects:—Railways; Tramways; Tramroads; Subways; Canals and Navigations; Roads and Bridges; Water; Waterworks; Gas; Gas and Water; Lighting and Improvement; Local Legislation; Corporations, &c. (not relating to Local Legislation or to Lighting and Improvement Schemes); Ports, Piers, Harbours, and Docks; Pilotage; Churches, Chapels, and Burying Grounds; Markets and Fairs; Gaols and other County Buildings; Inclosure and Drainage; Estate; Patent; Divorce; and Miscellaneous:

Of all the Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1923 have been reported on by Committees on Opposed Private Bills or by Committees nominated partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member has served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been not proved; and, in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed:

Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which, in Session, 1924, have been referred, by the Committee of Selection, to the Committee on Unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member attended:

And, of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which have been referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0,001, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Public Bills

Return ordered "of the number of Public Bills, distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1924; showing the number which received the Royal Assent; the number which were passed by this House, but not by the House of Lords; the number passed by the House of Lords, but not by this House; and distinguishing the stages at which, such Bills as did not receive the Royal Assent were dropped or postponed and rejected in either House of Parliament (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.002, of Session 1923)."—[ Mr. Deputy Chairman. ]

Public Petitions

Return ordered "of the number of Public Petitions presented and printed in Session 1924, with the total number of signatures in each Session (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.003, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Select Committees

Return ordered "of the number of Select Committees appointed in Session 1924 and the Court of Referees; the subjects of inquiry; the names of the Members appointed to serve on each, and of the Chairman of each; the number of days each Committee met, and the number of days each Member attended; the total expense of the attendance of witnesses at each Select Committee, and the name of the Member who moved for such Select Committee; also the total number of Members who served on Select Committees (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.004, of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Sittings of the House

Return ordered "of the days on which the House sat in Session 1924, stating for each day the date of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of adjournment; and the total number of hours occupied in the Sittings of the House; and the average time; and showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after eleven p.m.; and the number of entries in each day's Votes and Proceedings."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Standing Committees

Return ordered "for Session 1924 of (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the six Standing Committees appointed under Standing Order No. 47, showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings at which he was present; (2) the number of Bills considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number days on which each Committee sat, and the names of all Bills considered by a Standing Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing, in the case of each Bill, the particular Standing Committee by whom it was considered, the number of days on which it was considered by the Committee, and the number of Members present on each of those days (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.005 of Session 1923)."—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Civil Services (Lee Commission Report)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government propose to adopt the recommendations of the Lee Commission on the Superior Civil Services in India as to the abolition of the Indian medical service and the provincialisation of civil medical service?

No decision has yet been reached on the recommendations of the Lee Commission as to the organisation of the medical services in India.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what additional charge will fall upon Indian revenues, central and provincial, by reason of the adoption by the Cabinet of certain of the reforms recommended by the Lee Commission?

The additional charge has been estimated by the Government of India to amount to about £700,000 a year. This Estimate is necessarily a very rough one. Moreover, the charge fluctuates with the rate of exchange. If the current rate of exchange (1s. 6d. to the rupee) is maintained, the actual charge should show a substantial reduction on the Estimate.

I presume that the figure mentioned of £700,000 a year will appear in the Budget Estimate and that it will be possible to discuss it?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government can give a date for the introduction of legislation to carry out the recommendations of the Lee Commission?

It is not yet possible to fix a precise date for the introduction of the Bill to which the hon. Member refers, but it is hoped to introduce it early in the present Session.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the official announcement recently made that His Majesty's Government have accepted the substance of the recommendations of the Lee Commission includes their acceptance of the proposals regarding the Indian medical services?

The recent announcement does not refer to the Commission's proposals for the reorganisation of the medical services in India, which, as I have just stated, are still under consideration.

Will the legislation which, as the Under-Secretary has just mentioned, is going to be introduced by the Government at an early date, include a decision on the medical side of the work?

I hope that it will be possible to come to a decision on this matter early in the coming year, or, at any rate, that it will be possible to announce the decision when Parliament reassembles.

Arrests (Bengal)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is prepared to supply figures showing the number of persons in India now imprisoned or segregated under Regulation III of the Act of 1818 and under the new Ordinance?

The Ordinance applies to Bengal only. In that Province, according to the latest official information, 59 persons have been arrested under the Ordinance and 46 are State prisoners under the Regulation of 1818. Of the latter, 28 were already imprisoned before the promulgation of the Ordinance.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of the Government of India to bring the persons arrested under the Special Ordinance of the Governor-General (Bengal Criminal Law Amendment Order) to public trial?

The answer, so far as I am aware, is in the negative, for reasons indicated on page 18 of the White Paper.

12.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that amongst the Indians recently arrested in Bengal is the chief executive officer of the corporation of Calcutta; and whether, in view of the grave inconvenience being caused to the city of Calcutta by this arrest, he will take steps to have this particular prisoner brought to trial at an early date?

The following question also stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mrs. THURTLE:

May I, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, withdraw Question No. 13, which was put down under a misapprehension?

The person referred to has been arrested under Regulation 3 of 1818, under the authority of the Government of Bengal. He is detained as a State prisoner, and, so far as is known, there is no intention of bringing him to trial.

Has there, in fact, within the Noble Lord's knowledge, been any grave inconvenience caused to the city of Calcutta by the arrest of this officer, and has he received any report to that effect?

I should not think so, unless possibly to the Corporation of Calcutta.

Is there any limit to the time that a man may be detained without trial?

Hospital Accommodation (British (Troops)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any Report has been received from India as to giving effect to the recommendations of the British Station Hospital Committee, under the chairmanship of Surgeon-General Sir G. H. Makins, in 1918; and when he expects to take action to improve the standard of comfort and accommodation in the hospitals for British troops in India?

A Report has been asked for, but has not yet been received. I will inform my Hon. Friend when it arrives, and perhaps he will allow me to await it before making a statement in reply to the last part of the question.

Army Officers (Pay and Pensions)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India under what regulation Indian Army officers have suffered a reduction of their pay and pensions?

The decision to make the new rates of pay and pension subject in part to revision with reference to fluctuations in the cost of living was promulgated in Army Instructions, India, notably No. 914 of 1919 as regards pay, and No. 448 of 1920 as regards pensions, of which I will send the hon. Member copies. No action has yet been taken as regards rupee rates of pay; but a provisional reduction of 5 per cent. has been made in pensions. The furlough pay of officers still on the cadre of their units has been reduced in accordance with the provisions of the Royal Warrant, which is applied under the Pay and Allowance Regulations to furlough pay.

Is not the cost-of-living figure totally different in India from that in this country, and can the Noble Lord undertake to revise this decision?

I will send the hon. and gallant Gentleman copies of the two Regulations to which I have referred.

Alleged Assault (Quetta)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can state the findings of the Court of Inquiry, held at Quetta, on the assault on Mr. Edward Pellier, alleged to be committed by two privates of the Black Watch Regiment near Roberts Barracks on the night of 3rd November?

Native Princes (Household Appointments)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the appointment of British officers or subjects to the households or persons of native princes in India requires or receives the sanction of the Government of India or of the Secretary of State; and, if so, whether he can lay Papers showing the conditions of such appointments?

Under the existing arrangements, the appointment of a British officer or a European British subject requires Government sanction. There are no prescribed conditions of general application, but there are published rules as to the pay, etc., of Government servants transferred to the service of an Indian State, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy if he so desires.

May I ask the Noble Lord whether His Majesty's Government, or any Department, or any individual member of that Government, has been in any way responsible, either for the appointment or the recommendation of the aide-de-camp who was referred to in the recent case tried in the Law Courts of Robinson v. the Midland Bank, and, if not, can he state how that appointment was made?

The appointments in these cases, and the case to which the hon. Member refers is one of them, are made by the individual princes, and they are subject, as my answer shows, to the sanction of the Government being obtained. The ordinary procedure was followed in the case in question.

Steel (Bounties)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is in a position to state the intentions of the Government of India in connection with the request for a revision of the protective duties on steel imported into India owing to the change in the exchange value of the rupee?

The Government of India have decided to recommend to their Legislative Assembly when it meets in January the grant of further protection to the steel industry in the form of bounties on the production of steel for the year ending 30th September, 1925. Their proposals have not yet taken final shape, but they have announced that they will probably recommend a bounty of Rs. 20 per ton on finished steel produced in India, subject to a total maximum of Rs. 50 lakhs. They intend to reconsider the whole matter before the end of the period mentioned.

May I take it that the proposal which the Noble Lord has just read about the intention of the Government of India means that they have definitely abandoned or refused the idea of imposing protective duties according to the fluctuation of the rupee; and has the suggestion of bounties been definitely adopted or refused?

I think I should require notice of that question. It is a very important matter, but I think the hon. Member may take it that the decision for the moment is that the policy of bounties has been adopted.

Will this question of Protection be left to a free vote of the Assembly?

Boy Immigrant, Australia (Suicide)

asked the Secretary of State for the. Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the reported suicide of a British boy, named James Smith, in Australia, this making the fifth case of suicide since the boy-immigrant scheme was initiated; and whether he will have careful inquiries made into this case to see if there are any defects in the scheme which can be remedied?

Yes, Sir, the fullest possible inquiries are being made into the case in question.

Russia

Zinovieff Letter

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian Government have proposed that the so-called Zinovieff letter should be laid before some neutral tribunal for adjudication; and, if not, what action His Majesty's Government proposes to take in the matter?

I understand that this question is to be raised on the Opposition Amendment to-day, and it will be convenient to make my reply in the course of that Debate.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that in the Note handed to His Majesty's Foreign Office by M. Rakovsky on the 28th November last it is stated that he had submitted to the Foreign Office documental evidence proving that on the territory of Great Britain there exist political organisations engaged in the fabrication and distribution of false documents concerning the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and whether he is investigating this statement?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he received a letter from C. J. Rakovsky, dated 28th November, 1924, stating that he had submitted to the Foreign Office documentary evidence regarding the existence of organisations engaged in the fabrication and circulation of documents concerning the Union of Soviet Republics; whether he can say if he has seen that evidence; and, if not, whether he will call for it and authorise its publication?

The answer to the first part of both questions is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Government are well aware of the existence of agencies for forgery and are not deceived by them. The answer to the rest of the questions is, therefore, in the negative.

With reference to the second part of my question, No. 16, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it necessary to investigate such a statement? Are the Government quite sure that they have not been taken in by this information?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has caused any inquiries to be made as to the manner in which the alleged letter from Zinovieff came into the possession of the London Press; if so, whether he can state if it was issued from, or by an official of, the Foreign Office; and whether he is taking, or has taken, any steps to prevent such occurrences?

There is not a shadow of foundation for the imputation cast on officials of my Department in this question, and I much regret that the hon. Member should lend his name to it, even in the from of a question.

May I be allowed, Mr. Speaker, to make a personal explanation? If the right hon. Gentleman and you, Sir, will look at this question, both will find, and the House will find, that there is no imputation placed upon any member of the Foreign Office or any member of the Civil Service. It asks how the alleged letter was issued to the London Press, whether it was issued by an official of the Foreign Office, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is taking, or has taken, any steps to prevent such occurrences. [ A laugh. ] I thought it was one of the Gentlemen to whom the Secretary had addressed a letter as man to man who was laughing just now. [ Interruption. ]

The House will always accept a personal explanation. The hon. Member has quite rightly explained that he had no intention of making any reflection on any member of the Civil Service.

That is why I am asking the right hon. Gentleman if he will reply to the question how it came into the possession of the London Press, whether he has made any inquiry as to how it got there, and if he can let this House understand that he is taking steps to prevent any recurrence of this leakage of information.

No, Sir. The hon. Member, in making what he calls his personal explanation and in repeating his question, omits the central paragraph of his question. The central paragraph of his question was a suggestion that this letter came into the possession of the "Daily Mail" through an official in the Foreign Office. For that there is not a shadow of foundation. How the "Daily Mail" got it is not my business [ Interruption. ] At the moment, I am assured that they did not get it from the Foreign Office, and I do not propose to make any inquiry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in fact, the Foreign Office got it from the "Daily Mail."

Are we to understand that if a State document which affects a foreign country gets into the hands of a newspaper it is not the business of the Foreign Secretary of this country?

This is not a British State document, nor was it addressed to the British Government.

Surely, this document was bought by the British Government, and it got into the hands of unauthorised persons?

No, Sir; that is the insinuation which I have already repelled, and for which, I say again, there is not a shadow of foundation. It is an insinuation that the information was received by the "Daily Mail," directly or indirectly, from the Foreign Office—

That is not true. If you want to know how the "Daily Mail" got it, there are two sources of information: you can go to the "Daily Mail," or you can go to the Communists of Moscow or London.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Zinovieff letter purports to be signed by A. McManus, a British subject resident in this country; and, if so, whether he is satisfied that this signature is authentic?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, I would refer the hon. Member to the statements made as to the authenticity of the letter on the 10th December.

Are we to understand that Mr. McManus has not been prosecuted because there is no evidence of the authenticity of the letter good enough to put before a British judge and jury?

Perhaps it would be convenient for me to say, even at this early stage, that I would beg of hon. Gentlemen to understand from my answers nothing except what is contained in them.

Why have no proceedings been taken against this Mr. McManus if he is a signatory to the letter?

That is a question which I have already disallowed from the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Georgia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will arrange for the circulation as a White Paper of any despatches or reports throwing light on the circumstances under which the Russian Government attacked the Republic of Georgia and imposed its rule on that country?

Is it in order for this question to appear on the Paper in view of the fact the terms of it convey a slight upon a quite friendly Power?

I am afraid that such reports as are in the possession of His Majesty's Government on the subject are not suitable for publication in a White Paper.

Considering these murderous attacks which have been made by the Government of—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now using an adjective which would not be allowed in the original question.

Conditions in Russia (Reports)

asked the. Prime Minister whether arrangements can be made for the publication of any Reports that have been received from the British representative in Russia with regard to the political, social, and industrial conditions obtaining in that country; and, if no informative Reports are available, will the Government consider the possibility of sending a commission to that country to make an independent and imparital investigation with a view to a full Report on the state of affairs in Russia being made to Parliament as a condition precedent to the entering into of any closer diplomatic or commercial relations between this country and the Soviet Republic?

I do not think the appointment of a commission of inquiry would be useful or appropriate at the present moment. His Majesty's Government are adequately informed about conditions in Russia, but it would be contrary to the public interest to publish the confidential reports in their possession.

Is the whole of the information the right hon. Gentleman has received of a confidential nature? Does he not recognise the necessity for us to have this information in view of probable trading agreements?

I beg my hon. and gallant Friend to consider my answer, to which really there is nothing to add.

Treaties (Ratification)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government intends to lay all treaties upon the Table of this House for 21 days before ratification?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government intend to adopt the practice inaugurated by the late Government by which all treaties were to be laid upon the Table of the House in order to allow an opportunity, if required, for discussion before ratification and by which all agreements with foreign Governments were to be made public?

I would refer to the statement made in this House by the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) on the 1st April last, to the effect that the procedure adopted by the late Government in this matter could not be binding on future Governments. His Majesty's Government do not consider themselves bound to adopt that procedure, which, apart from other considerations, might involve inconvenience in connection with the resolution on the subject adopted by the Imperial Conference, 1923, by which His Majesty's Government consider themselves bound.

Egypt

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Egyptian question was raised at the Council of the League of Nations; and, if so, what statement was made and what action, if any, taken?

Is it the policy of the Government to submit any issues involving Egypt to the League?

No, Sir. Let me repeat here what I said before I went to Rome, that, had any member of the Council, whilst recognising that this was not a matter coming within the scope of those Articles of the Covenant which required or invited interference, asked me for any information about the policy of His Majesty's Government, I should have been only too glad to give it in courtesy to them; but we had a good deal of business of our own to do, and did not go out of our way to waste time over other things.

Are we to understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the opinion of the Government is that none of the issues involved are suitable for arbitration at Geneva?

Perhaps we had better develop that matter in the Debate which is about to take place.

Does the right hon. Gentleman regard Egypt as being an independent nation or not?

League of Nations (Geneva Protocols)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in connection with the Geneva protocols, in addition to the opinions of the Dominion Governments, we are taking into account the special position of the United States as the second greatest shipping and exporting nation in the world; and whether, in view of the possible enforcement of economic blockades or other measures by the League of Nations, the views of the United States Government will be fully ascertained before Parliament discusses the protocols?

The hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that the considerations to which he calls attention will mot be overlooked by His Majesty's Government.

Saturday, 27th December

asked the Prime Minister whether he will reconsider the proposal to declare Saturday, 27th December, a bank holiday, with a view to giving four days' holiday at Christmas time?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 11th instant to the hon. Member for the St. George's Division of Westminster.

Enemy Action Claims

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the claims of individuals against Germany were assessed at £12,500,000 by the Royal Commission; that up to the 26th June Germany had paid by way of reparations, over and above the cost of the Army of Occupation, £15,000,000, but that only £5,860,000 had so far been allocated to the claims of individuals; and whether he can see his way, especially in cases of men in the Mercantile Marine, many of whom are now in great distress, to make a pronouncement to the effect that the actual proved and assessed damage sustained by individuals shall be paid in full out of reparations actually paid by Germany to present date or out of future payments?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not yet had time to go fully into this matter, and he would therefore be glad if the hon. Member would be good enough to repeat his question after Christmas.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the amount available to make good damage to persons and property caused by the operations of enemy aircraft during the War in Great Britain; what steps are contemplated to make further payments to those who have only received a small proportion of their losses and have thereby been reduced to indigence; whether he will make a general statement as to how matters stand with regard to these sufferers and what prospect there is of their receiving further assistance; and will he say why in the distribution hitherto made no examination in detail has been made of claims and no proof required so as to ascertain which of them are wholly genuine and which inflated, and should rightly be reduced so as to make the lump sum or percentage payments more equitable and just?

Of the total amount allocated under the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action, approximately £400,000 has been paid in respect of damage caused by enemy aircraft in this country, in addition to amounts paid in accordance with the recommendations of the East Coast Raid Committee and under the Aircraft Insurance Scheme. All claims were carefully investigated before the assessments were made. As regards the question of further assistance, I would refer my right hon. Friend to one of the answers given to-day by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

House of Commons

Accommodation

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the insufficient accommodation now available for Ministers and Members in the performance of their Parliamentary duties; and will he consider the appointment of a Select Committee of the House to investigate what additional accommodation is necessary to meet the present needs of the Government and Members of the House of Commons?

No, Sir. I do not think that the appointment of a Select Committee would serve any useful purpose.

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take any other action than a Select Committee? Quite recently a Minister of the Government requested that a portion of the accommodation now available for Members should be surrendered to provide accommodation for additional Ministers.

I am quite aware the accommodation is encroaching very much on what there is to spare in the precincts of the House, but the two main difficulties which have been found by the late Government, as well as by this, are, first of all, that the creation of another additional room would lead to fresh building and that would mean expense and taking men away from a trade which ought to be occupied in building houses.

Could the Government make representations to the other House to surrender some of their unnecessary space?

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is prepared to have some improvement made in the ventilation of this House?

In connection with the preparation of the Estimates for 1925–6, my right hon. Friend is considering the possibility of including a sum to enable the Department to carry out certain changes in the method of distribution of air within the Chamber, the efficiency of which has already been tested experimentally in conjunction with the National Physical Laboratory. The First Commissioner would, of course, wish to be guided by the general feeling of the House on this subject, and is considering the best method whereby this may be secured.

Will the hon. Gentleman read the reports in the Library of the House as to the large number of strepto and other cocci which flourish in the air of the House, and will he alter a system which first uses the air to dust the boots of Members before they have an opportunity of breathing it?

Sudan Casualties (Pensions)

asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the Royal Warrant for the pay, etc., of the Army of 1922 reduced the amount of pension payable to the widow of a soldier killed on war service by more than 9s. a week, he will authorise the issue of pensions to the widows and dependants of the men killed in action in the Sudan at the rates provided in the Royal Warrant of 1919 for the dependants of men killed in the Great War?

I have been asked to reply. The existing rates were advisedly fixed by His Majesty's Government with a view to their future general application, and I could not recommend an arbitrary departure from them in the case in question.

Attorney-General

asked the Prime Minister, seeing that it was the unbroken practice of this country for centuries, up to the departure made in the case of Sir Rufus Isaacs a few years ago, to leave the Attorney-General outside the Cabinet on the ground that he was the principal legal adviser of the Cabinet, who will be the Law Officers of the Crown on whose advice the Cabinet will rely unbiassed by any decision the Cabinet may have taken?

The Government proposed to rely, as heretofore, on the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown.

Will the Attorney-General be one of the Law Officers of the Crown, and will the Prime Minister, as Prime Minister, take into consideration the criticisms in the "Law Journal" which were made when Sir Rufus Isaacs was appointed and now again on this appointment?

Attack on British Soldiers, Queenstown (Compensation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what sums have been paid as compensation to the victims of the Queenstown outrage as a result of findings of the Wood-Renton Commission; and how these sums compare in total and in average per person compensated with those paid in compensation for the non-physical damages to deportees under the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Act, 1923?

The total amount awarded by the Compensation (Ireland) Commission and paid by the Government of the Irish Free State to the 24 victims of the Queenstown outrage is £19,052. The highest award was £2,000 and the lowest £40, the average being £794; but the House will appreciate that an average figure has little meaning when applied to a small number of cases where the injury inflicted varies from death to a comparatively trivial wound.

The total amount awarded by the two tribunals set up for England and Wales and for Scotland respectively under the Restoration of Order in Ireland (Indemnity) Act, to the 114 persons deported to Ireland is £54,140 12s. The highest award was £1,560 and the lowest £210 5s., the average being £474 18s. 4d.

Kenya

Removal of Natives

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Kenya Government has moved, or intends to move, any natives on the north of Mount Kenya out of the areas now occupied by them; and particularly whether it is contemplated to alienate a portion of the Samburn country to a European settler?

The Governor has reported that owing to the resistance to administrative control of a small section of the Masai who were not removed to the new southern reserve in 1912, and owing also to the spread of disease among the stock of their neighbours and their propensity to destroy pasturage by grass fires, it has been necessary to take steps, after observing the necessary veterinary quarantine precautions, to remove these people to the southern reserve. The move was expected to be complete in November. The question of dealing with members of other tribes who had added themselves to this group of Masai is still under consideration by the Governor, but there is no question of moving them in order that the land vacated may be leased to a European settler. The total number of natives concerned is 839, of whom apparently less than one-third are Masai.

May we understand that no movements of natives are made in Kenya except with the approval of the Colonial Office?

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the allegation that it is proposed to move natives from the territory to the north of Mount Kenya, not to the southern reserve, but to the neighbourhood of Lake Rudolf, into an area stricken by drought and where they will be raided by the Turkhana?

No, and I should be glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would furnish me with particulars.

Railway Construction (Native Labour)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the number of natives employed on railway construction work in Kenya during the financial year 1923–24 and the number of deaths among them; whether he is aware that the medical arrangements for looking after native labour on such work has been adversely criticised in the colony; and whether he is satisfied that the medical supervision of railway camps is satisfactory?

Construction has been in progress on the Thika-Tana River extension since January, 1924. The returns to the end of July show employment varying between 3,000 and 6,000 and an average mortality of 12 per thousand per annum, the highest mortality rate being 22·8 in July. I am not aware of any criticism of the medical arrangements.

On the Uasin Gishu railway, at a much higher altitude, the mortality in 1923 averaged 35 per thousand per annum as compared with 51 in 1922, the reduction being due to improved medical supervision. The highest figure in 1923 was during the abnormally heavy rains of April, when it rose to 58 per thousand per annum, falling to 12·6 in December. The number of labourers employed during the year increased from 13,000 to 16,000, falling again to 8,500. For the same railway the 1924 returns show mortality varying from 12 per thousand per annum in January to nearly 30 in the rainy season of August and Septem- ber. In 1922 the Duke of Devonshire found occasion, in consequence of the exceptional mortality on certain sections of construction, to direct that a very searching inquiry should be made into the conditions under which the labourers lived. He received an assurance that all precautions for ensuring health were being taken—and I have had no recent representations as to the inadequacy of medical arrangements on the Uasin Gishu railway.

Live Stock Removal (Losses)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state why the Wakamba in Kenya were recently ordered by the local government to remove their live stock from the Yatta plains, which removal resulted in the loss of many thousand head of cattle; and whether any compensation has been paid?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider any information that I may place before him?

Trade and Commerce

Nottingham Lace and Seamless Gloves

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the serious position of the Nottingham lace and embroidery trade; and whether, to meet the wishes of both employed and employers, he will consider the possibility of assisting it in connection with the revival of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that manufacturers in the United Kingdom of seamless gloves are suffering severely by the importation of seamless gloves from abroad, particularly from Germany and from the United States of America; whether he is aware that this competition has resulted in considerable unemployment in the trade referred to; and whether, in view of the circumstances and the necessity for assisting those who are unemployed in this particular trade, and to increase the output of seamless gloves manufactured in the United Kingdom, he will include such gloves in any legislation that may be brought in to protect efficient industries from unfair competition from abroad?

I have been asked to reply. Proposals to give effect to the policy of the Government, as indicated in the King's Speech, will be laid before the House as soon as possible. The Prime Minister proposes to make a statement in the Debate on Wednesday as regards that policy.

Cotton Goods Exports (India and China)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the quantities and values of the exportation of Lancashire piece goods to India and China, respectively, for the first 10 months of the current year as compared with the corresponding figures for 1923?

The answer contains a table of figures, and my hon. Friend will, perhaps, allow me to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Are the comparative figures for this November and last November available?

My hon. Friend asked for the figures for the 10 months ended on 31st October, and those are the figures I have given in the answer. I shall be obliged if he will put his further question on the Paper.

Following is the reply:

The following statement shows the quantity and value of cotton piece goods, of United Kingdom manufacture exported, which were consigned to the countries specified during the 10 months ended 31st October of the years 1923 and 1924, respectively.

Corresponding particulars respecting cotton piece goods manufactured in Lancashire are not available.

Country to which Consigned.

Ten months ended 31st October.

1923.

1924.

( a ) Quantity.) Quantity.

Sq. yds.

Sq. yds.

British India

1,191,237,400

1,377,656,600

China (including Hong Kong)

186,709,200

254,071,400

( b ) Declared Value.) Declared Value.

£

£

British India

27,911,199

34,049,661

China (including Hong Kong)

7,989,420

10,838,541

Northern Nigeria (Native Exployes' Taxation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why it has been decided to impose an Income Tax upon the native employés of Northern Nigeria, which is to be paid only by the employés of merchant companies and not by the employés of the Government?

No new tax is contemplated, so far as I am aware. All natives resident in a township were formerly exempted from payment of the native direct tax, which is probably the tax to which the hon. and gallant Member refers. This exemption was cancelled in 1922, one reason for the change being that the exemption encouraged natives to flock into the townships and so avoid the tax and the control of the Native Administration. The change imposed taxation on all natives resident in a township and not only on those employed by merchant companies. The official salaries, but not the private incomes, of natives employed by the Protectorate Government or a Native Administration, whether resident in a township or not, have all along been exempt from the native direct tax, the reason no doubt being that otherwise higher salaries would have to be paid them by the Government or Native Administration.

Rubber Production (Restriction)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information to give the House as to the collapse of the rubber restriction combine in the Dutch East Indies owing to the increase in the native production of rubber; and whether this will affect the ordinances passed to restrict production in Ceylon and Malaya?

If the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the agreement by which the bulk of British-owned estates in the Netherlands East Indies voluntarily co-operate in the policy of restricting rubber exports, I have no information to suggest that their agreement has collapsed; the second part of the question does not therefore arise.

Seeing that there has been this enormous increase in the native production of rubber in the Dutch East India Islands, and that that increase is alleged to have broken down the voluntary agreement, will the right hon. Gentleman consider that, in connection with the legislation which is passed by Ceylon and Malay?

Yes, but my answer conveys the fact that the agreement has not broken down.

Are we to understand that the policy of "ca'canny" is now being adopted by the other side?

Empire Settlement

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many men with and without families have been assisted to emigrate under the Empire Settlement Act, 1922, and at what cost?

The number of men assisted to migrate up to 31st October last, under the Empire Settlement Act, 1922, is 32,987, of whom 24,927 applied as single men. Virtually, all the others, numbering 8,060, were married men. This figure, however, includes a few males of 19 years or more, who went out with parents. The amount of assistance given to the single men is £127,821 by free grant and £155,966 by loan, and to married men and their families £210,159 by free grant and £61,097 by loan.

Jamaica (Administration)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to complaints from representative residents of Jamaica as to grievances connected with medical, labour, police, legal and postal administration in that island; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the alleged grievances and consider what remedies, if any, should be applied?

Complaints have been made from time to time of the administration of the Jamaica Government. I have no doubt that the new Governor, Sir Samuel Wilson, is considering all legitimate grievances and will in due course make proposals for remedying them.

Agriculture

Proposed Conference

asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Conference which he is calling to deal with agricultural problems will meet; of whom it will consist; and whether it will include representatives of the towns?

The proposed Agricultural Conference will consist of

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any Scottish representatives will be appointed?

As my right hon. Friend doubtless knows it is proposed to establish a separate Conference for Scotland.

I hope that Wales will be represented in the proposed Conference to which I have referred.

I have an answer on that subject later. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put a supplementary then, if necessary.

Can my right hon. Friend say now that Wales will be represented?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what arrangements have been made for the attendance at the Conference of men who are not members of the Workers' Union, and of farmers who are not members of the National Farmers' Union?

I am afraid that I cannot set to work to establish direct representation, except through the agency of representative organisations. All those who have any point of view which they wish to submit to the Conference will obviously have the fullest facilities for doing so, whether by evidence or in some other way which the Minister may approve. With regard to the Welsh patriotism of my hon. Friend the Member for East Cardiff (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) I can assure him that I think he need be under no apprehension that the interest of Wales will not be adequately safeguarded.

asked the Minister of Agriculture if smallholders have been excluded from the Conference of persons interested in agriculture which is to be held in the near future; and, if so, will he state the reasons why smallholders are excluded?

There is no organisation of a national character which is specially representative of the interests of smallholders, and it would therefore be difficult to provide for their separate representation on the proposed Conference. I may say, however, that the National Farmers Union includes among its members a considerable number of occupiers of less than 50 acres, especially in Wales, and the interests of smallholders in the general agricultural problem are not essentially different from those of other occupiers.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the interests of market gardeners will be represented on the proposed Agricultural Conference which will inquire into the question of increased food production and the provision of reasonable wages to the workers?

In selecting the organisations which have been invited to appoint representatives to the Conference, I have been compelled to restrict their number to those which could claim to be specially representative of the three broad divisions of the industry, and I do not consider that the special representation of sectional interests would be an advantage. The National Farmers' Union, which comprises a considerable number of market gardeners, including their present vice-president, among its members, will no doubt see that their interests are not overlooked.

Will any labourers who are not trade unionists be included on the Committee?

Is the right hon. Gentleman asking for persons experienced in the production of agricultural produce or for persons experienced in the distribution of agricultural produce?

In so far as the persons are concerned with the co-operative production of agricultural produce, they will no doubt be formally represented, and be represented by farmers or labourers, as the case may be.

Arable Area

asked the Minister of Agriculture the area now under cultivation in this country, and also give figures for the years 1914 and 1918?

The area of arable land in England and Wales returned on the 4th of June, 1914, 1918 and 1924, respectively, was 10,998,000 acres, 12,399,000 acres, and 10,929,000 acres.

Milk (Levy)

asked the Minister of Agriculture what sum has been repaid to or left in the hands of the United Dairies and other milk companies on account of what is known as the milk twopence decision of the House of Lords; whether any taxes have been deducted from that sum, and, if so, what; whether any local branches of the National Farmers' Union were consulted as to the Ministry's recommendation that the companies should devote the money so received to educational purposes; and, if so, whether they approve of the course proposed?

The total sum involved is approximately £250,000, the United Dairies' share being approximately £80,000. In the computation of the assessable profits of the milk companies for Income Tax purposes, no deduction has been allowed in respect of the milk twopences collected from and subsequently repaid to those companies. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative, and the fourth part, therefore, does not arise.

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture the counties affected by the foot-and-mouth disease; and if the number of cases has been reduced compared with six months ago?

Recent cases have occurred in Norfolk and Northants, and parts of Kent, Derby, Stafford, Bedford and Buckinghamshire are also still under restrictions. Thirty-seven outbreaks have occurred since 1st October compared with 164 in the three months from 1st April to 30th June last.

Food Prices (Linlithgow Committee's Recommendations)

asked the Minister of Agriculture what progress has been made during the past year in carrying out the 45 recommendations of the Linlithgow Committee which called for legislative or administrative action, and which were designed to give fairer food prices to both producer and consumer, and in carrying out the 27 other recommendations of the Committee addressed to trading organisations with the same end in view?

As the reply is necessarily long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL

Statement A

Summary of action taken on those recommendations of the Linlithgow Committee which admit of legislative or administrative action.

The references are to:

Cmd. 1854. Interim Report on Milk and Milk Products.

Cmd. 1892. Interim Report on Fruit and Vegetables.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 240.

The Government should consider the advisability of introducing legislation to require holding companies which are in a position similar to that of the United Dairies to file with their annual return at Somerset House a coordinated balance sheet giving various particulars.

The introduction of a Bill to deal with this question has been considered by the Government. The matter is in the hands of the Board of Trade.

Cmd 2008. Par. 42.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 247.

The Ministry of Agriculture in collaboration with local authorities should take steps to revive and extend the scheme of cooperative dairy schools.

A circular on this subject was issued to all local authorities and steps are taken as opportunity offers.

Cmd. 1854: Pars. 255, 256.

A standing Milk Advisory Committee should be appointed jointly by the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Agriculture, to Scottish Board of Health, and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland to consider administrative questions affecting the industry.

Separate Committees have been set up for England and Wales and for Scotland.

REPORT two statements which will give him the information required.

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly say that these recommendations will not be hung up awaiting the report of any committee, and that inasmuch as they seem promising, progress will be made with them?

I think that when my hon. Friend sees the statement to which I refer, he will find that there has been no delay. If there are points on which he is not satisfied, I should be glad if he will draw my attention to them.

That is not my point. Will any progress be made in carrying out these recommendations at the present time?

I think that when my hon. Friend sees my statement, he will see that progress is being and will be made.

Following are the statements:

Cmd. 1927. Interim Report on Meat, Poultry and Eggs.

Cmd. 1971. Interim Report on Cereals, Flour and Bread.

Cmd. 2008 Final Report.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

Cmd. 1854. Par 257.

The imposition of a legal minimum standard of fat-content applicable to both home-produced and imported whole milk cheese, and also to cream and milk powder.

The Minister of Health has made Regulations which came into force on 1st May, 1924, fixing standards of fat-content for dried milk. The Ministry of Agriculture is conducting investigations with a view to determining what standards, if any, may be adopted in respect of whole milk cheese and single and double cream.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 258.

The Departments of Agriculture in conjunction with local authorities should consider the simplest and most direct means of furnishing technical and expert advice to producers in the preparation, packing, grading and marketing of home dairy produce. Assistance in the direction of education and advice should also be given to co-operative dairy societies engaged primarily in the manufacture of milk products.

The giving of such advice forms part of the work of dairy instructresses working under the Education Scheme of the Ministry of Agriculture. Experts speak highly of the work done by county staffs and consider that all that is necessary is that its scope should be extended. A number of counties have been asked to strengthen their staffs on the dairy side.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 260.

The problem of the remunerative conversion of whey into other products should continue to receive the attention of the Ministry of Agriculture.

An experimental factory for the manufacture of lactose has been in existence for some time. The factory has now been transferred to University College, Reading, which is responsible for further research work in regard to this question.

Cmd. 1892: Pars. 299, 302.

The practice of "averaging returns" is not infrequent among salesmen. It is illegal. Every grower is entitled to receive the actual price realised for his produce.

Efforts are being made to secure voluntary agreement between both sides of the industry on the points raised in this recommendation. If these efforts do not meet with success, it will be necessary to consider the introduction of legislation to deal with the points at issue.

Another illegal practice occasionally resorted to is that of returning to the grower lower prices than those actually realised. This is dishonest. Growers are entitled to know the name of the buyer of their goods and they should exercise this right more extensively.

Some salesmen also act as merchants buying and selling on their own account according to the trend of the market. It is illegal for a salesman to sell to himself goods he handles on account of a principal. Salesmen should state clearly on each sales account whether they have acted as salesmen or merchants.

There is great variety in the methods adopted by salesmen in rendering sales accounts to growers. Every account in respect of a commission sales should show not only the gross selling price and the rate of commission charged, but also the amount of each separate deduction, such as carriage, cartage, carriage on empties, porterage, market tolls, use of empties, telegrams, etc.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

Par. 303.

Commission salesmen in the wholesale fruit and vegetable markets should operate under licence, such licences to be issued only under clearly defined conditions respecting commission charges and business codes. Failing regulatory action by salesmen themselves representative association of growers should bring pressure to bear in the direction of securing legislative action to safeguard the producer against imposition.

Efforts are being made to secure voluntary agreement between both sides of the industry on the points raised in this recommendation. If these efforts do not meet with success, it will be necessary to consider the introduction of legislation to deal with the points at issue.

Par. 312.

Improvement of existing conditions at Covent Garden Market.

The possibility of legislative action has been considered.

Par. 315.

The experimental work now being carried out by the University of Bristol at the research factory at Campden in co-operation with the Horticultural Research Station at Long Ashton with regard to the general question of fruit preservation, including canning, is deserving of every encouragement and should be pressed forward.

A grant up to £4,000 has been made to Campden this year, and two additional Research workers have recently been appointed. Special arrangements are already in existence at the Campden factory for the instruction of county staffs in the commercial preservation of fruit and vegetables.

Par. 316.

The domestic bottling of fruit is capable of considerable expansion, and should be encouraged. The Departments of Agriculture in conjunction with local authorities should endeavour to educate the public in the most economical methods.

Courses in fruit and vegetable preservation are held for County Instructors and others at the Campden factory. Instructresses in fruit preservation are attached to some County Councils; in other Counties, the Horticultural Instructors give the instruction required. Jam-making, fruit and vegetable drying and fruit bottling on a domestic scale have also been dealt with in leaflets issued by the Ministry.

Par. 318.

The preservation of fruit and vegetables by refrigeration is in an experimental stage in this country. Growers and growers' organisations should consider the advisability of erecting refrigerating plant in areas where supplies of good-class fruit are regularly in excess of the immediate demand.

Growers and growers' organisations are interesting themselves in this problem. A conference on cold storage for fruit was held at the recent Imperial Fruit Show, and was addressed by officers of the Low Temperature Station for Research in Bio-chemistry and Bio-physics, who explain to the growers present the nature of the research which has so far been carried out.

Cmd. 1892: Par. 319.

The attention of growers should also be drawn to the cold storage accommodation which exists in certain of the larger cities. The Department of Agriculture should publish particulars of such accommodation.

Enquiries were made to ascertain the amount of cold storage available for fruit in the principal markets, but it was found that special provision for fruit exists only in a few cases, and is not in great demand.

Cmd. 2008: Par. 42.

Cmd. 1892: Par. 322.

Export markets for ware potatoes. The Department of Overseas Trade should, through its representatives abroad, provide information as to such markets and assist exporters in pushing the sale of ware potatoes surplus to home requirements.

This matter has been brought to the notice of the Department of Overseas Trade whose officers have been asked to collect information as to the prospects of developing the sale of English ware potatoes abroad. In addition, it is the normal practice of the Ministry to take every opportunity of securing modifications in the

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

regulations of importing countries in order to facilitate this trade. Where such regulations require inspection and certification of potatoes before export the Ministry undertakes this on behalf of exporters. Valuable modifications of the Uruguayan, Argentine and French Regulations have been secured within the last two years.

Par 324.

Efforts to be made to discover suitable non-returnable containers for fruit and vegetables.

Many non-returnable packages have been introduced through the grading and packing scheme of the Federation of British Growers. The Ministry has secured the agreement of the trade upon standard non-returnable packages for strawberries. The practicability of non-returnable cardboard containers for apples is being investigated.

Par. 326

Growers should be required to declare the count or number of fruit or vegetables in each package of produce marketed, or the minimum net weight of produce it contains. In cases where produce is sold on any other basis, a standard package should be used.

The Horticultural Advisory Council has endorsed this recommendation, but the proposal presents difficulties, particularly as it would also have to be applied to imported produce.

Par. 327

The general question of reducing the variety of packages in common use by the home-grower should receive the earnest attention of all branches of the industry, in order to secure greater uniformity throughout the trade

This recommendation was endorsed by the Horticultural Advisory Council. As in the case of the previous recommendation, the difficulties are very great, but the industry is alive to the importance of this problem.

Cmd. 1892: Par. 330.

The instruction already arranged by the Ministry of Agriculture in the grading and packing of apples should be continued and extended to cover other varieties of produce.

Local Authorities have been asked to undertake instruction in the grading and packing of fruit and numerous, demonstrations have been given. In 1923, the Ministry imported a Cutler grading machine from America the use of which was demonstrated to growers in various districts in co-operation with Local Authorities and Growers' Associations. In 1924, the Ministry equipped an apple grading and packing station at Cottenham, Cambridgeshire, at which, during the past season, 64 tons of apples were graded and packed; instruction was also given to officers of Local Authorities and to growers in the methods of grading and packing and in the management of the station. An officer of the Department is at present on a tour in Canada and the United States investigating the working of the large fruit packing stations in those countries. Early in 1924, officers of the Ministry were sent to France to study the methods of grading and packing

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

employed in marketing broccoli. Subsequently demonstrations were given by these officers at Penzance, which is the centre of the Cornish broccoli industry. Efforts are now being made to arrange for the establishment of a broccoli packing station in Cornwall. The Ministry's officers are also studying the methods of grading and packing flowers.

Par. 337.

The broadcasting of market prices by wireless telephony would be advantageous and merits investigation. If any effective scheme can be devised by the growers' associations the Departments of Agriculture and the General Post Office should cooperate in securing its adoption.

Agricultural information is being broadcasted by the Ministry fortnightly.

Par. 338.

The Departments of Agriculture, in conjunction with representatives of growers' organisations, should consider the possibility of publishing more comprehensive information regarding the total annual production of fruit and vegetable crops in this country.

Returns of the extent of fruit growing were collected by the Ministry of Agriculture in greater detail in 1933, and estimates of production were obtained from horticultural organisers and the Ministry's horticulture inspectors. The results were published in the Agricultural Statistics (Part II) for 1923 and similar information will shortly be available for 1924.

Par. 339.

The Departments of Agriculture and the representative associations of growers should consider whether earlier information in regard to vegetables could not be published during the planting season in order that the prospects of quantities available for market may be made known at an earlier date than at present.

The recommendation has been looked into, but it is not considered possible to collect earlier information of a reliable nature as to the area of crops.

Cmd. 1927: Pars. 369, 370.

If sufficiently supported, legislation should be introduced rendering it compulsory to weigh and to exhibit or announce the weight of all fat cattle, sheep and pigs before sale.

This is under consideration.

In the event of a preponderance of opinion in favour of compulsory sale by live weight the Ministry of Agriculture should promote the necessary legislation.

Agriculturists in general would not view with favour the compulsory sale of stock by live weight.

Pars. 385, 386.

Public abattoir policy and powers of local authorities.

This is a matter for the Ministry of Health.

Par 372.

The Ministry of Agriculture should reconsider the exemptions granted under the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, 1887 and 1891, and administer the Statutes as firmly as possible.

This is being done.

Cmd. 1927: Pars. 398, 445

It is desirable that means should, if possible, be devised to secure the effective marking of meat and eggs.

Proposals in regard to this subject have been before Parliament in the two last Sessions. As announced in His Majesty's Gracious Speech legislation will be introduced this Session.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

Par 400.

The Departments of Agriculture should continue to encourage the scientific investigation of practical points connected with animal husbandry, and adequate funds should be placed at the disposal of these Departments to sustain and extend the work which is now in hand.

The Ministry has for some years, through the medium of its livestock schemes, endeavoured to promote the improvement of breeding, both for meat and milk production, and grants are made to research institutions for investigations into animal husbandry. This work is now being considerably developed.

The attention of societies under the livestock improvement schemes should be directed to the necessity for improving stock for meat- producing purposes.

considerably developed.

Par. 404.

The home curing of bacon on the farm and in villages should be encouraged. Instruction in bacon curing should be arranged at centres of agricultural education.

A leaflet on the subject has been issued. Instruction in the home curing of bacon is given at two centres.

Cmd. 1927: Par. 420.

The Department of Agriculture in collaboration with curers, should make a definite and authoritative pronouncement as to the best type of pig for the production of bacon. The schemes of these Departments for the improvement of livestock, so far as they relate to premium boars, should be adapted to the necessities of the trade.

Several Conferences with bacon curers and others interested have been held by the Ministry, and a leaflet dealing with this question has been given wide publicity both by distribution to applicants and through the medium of education authorities. Lectures are also being given in various parts of the country. The livestock schemes of the Ministry take into consideration local requirements as to breed and type of pig required, and the Department reserves the right to refuse premiums to boars unless it is satisfied that the breed is suitable to the needs of the district.

Par. 394.

Domestic economy instruction in educational centres can be most usefully directed to the encouragement of the economical utilisation of the cheaper joints.

This is a matter primarily for the Board of Education, and action is being taken.

Par. 403.

City Corporation should arrange for the publication of prices of meat.

The Ministry brought this recommendation to the notice of the Corporation, and effect has now been given to it.

Par. 425.

In view of the close relationship between co-operative dairying and co-operative bacon production, the Ministry of Agriculture should devise means of supporting an experiment for the cooperative production of bacon in conjunction with a co-operative cheese school.

The desirability of connecting where possible co-operative dairy schools with co-operative bacon factories is recognised and action will be taken when a suitable opportunity arises.

Par. 430.

Proprietors of cold storage accommodation in this country should be required to furnish detailed particulars at regular intervals of the total quantity of meat of various kinds held in cold store. At present no machinery exists by which such information may be made available to the consuming public.

This is a matter for the Board of Trade.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation

Action taken.

Par. 434.

The General Post Office, the railway companies, and the various road transport companies should consider the possibility of introducing a system of returning empty egg boxes at a nominal charge. The railway companies already have special favourable rates for empties, but these appear to be subject to a minimum weight of 28 lbs.

The arrangement between the Post Office and the railway companies for the conveyance of the parcel post based on the Parcel Post Acts of 1882 and 1922 preclude the introduction of a cheaper rate for returned empties.

Cmd. 1854: Pars. 253, 259.Cmd. 1892:Par. 294. Cmd.1927: Par.435.

The Post Office Authorities should consider the question of a cash-on-delivery service, and make an experimental test of the system over a sufficient period of time. The railway companies should also consider the advisability of adopting a cash-on-delivery system.

These recommendations have been considered by the General Post Office and the railway companies. They do not regard the adoption of such a scheme at the present moment is feasible.

Par. 451.

A profitable trade might be established in this country by the sale of "broilers," or young cockerels, taken from laying flocks and fattened and killed at about 10 to 12 weeks old. Suitable propaganda should be conducted.

A Sub-Committee of the National Poultry Institute is conducting experiments to determine the most profitable times to kill and market "broilers." When results have been obtained publicity will be given to them. In the meantime a large co-operative society of producers has been formed near London to undertake this trade. The Ministry has made a loan to the society under the scheme to which reference is made later.

Par. 458.

The preservation of eggs in times of glut is an enterprise which cooperative societies might undertake with advantage. The economic possibility of preserving eggs by cold storage in the spring should be considered in conjunction with the cold storage of fruit during other seasons.

This recommendation has been laid before the Poultry Advisory Committee of the Ministry of Agriculture. The Committee wish to give further consideration to certain aspects of the question before suggesting any line of action.

Cmd. 2008: Par. 86.

Additional statistics of prices at markets where produce is sold by producers may be desirable, and, if necessary, additional funds should be placed at the disposal of the Departments for this purpose.

In view of the need for reducing expenditure, no proposal on these lines has been put forward.

Par. 89.

It may be possible, by collaboration between the Departments of Agriculture and Labour, to secure a more complete and comparable record of producers' and consumers' prices, and we recommend that the Departments concerned should explore every possibility in this direction.

The Ministry obtains information as to wholesale or producers' prices for most agricultural commodities and publishes it in the "Agricultural Market Report." Information as to retail prices is collected by the Ministry of Labour and is published monthly in the Ministry of Labour "Gazette." The possibility of using this information for the comparison of producers' and consumers' prices has been considered by the Ministry in consultation with the Ministry of Labour, but the information available is not of the kind which is essential to provide a satisfactory basis for comparison.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

There are serious difficulties in ensuring that any wholesale and retail prices which are compared refer to the same grade or quality, and in deciding what is the average retail price of any commodity having regard to the services such as delivery, credit, etc., which may or may not be included. In addition, wholesale and retail prices are not exactly comparable in point of time, and retail prices usually lag behind wholesale prices.

Par. 94.

Instruction in the subject of marketing should be included in the courses at farm institutes and other educational centres where practicable.

Effect is being given to this recommendation as far as possible.

Par. 95.

The Ministry of Agriculture should consider the advisability of obtaining' funds to allow of the appointment of a marketing advisory officer in each of the educational districts into which the country is at present divided.

The Ministry has recently established a scheme under which advisory and investigational officers in agricultural economics are stationed in certain of the educational districts.

Par. 97.

The Departments of Agriculture should devote more attention to marketing and to commercial problems than has hitherto been the case. They should keep a close watch on the whole system of marketing and distribution of agricultural produce. The material accumulated and published by the Committee in the course of our Enquiry should be collated and kept up to date.

The Ministry has appointed a number of marketing officers and a Marketing Commissioner to carry out an extensive survey of the whole system of marketing and marketing methods in this country. These investigations are now in progress, and it is hoped to commence the issue of a series of reports next spring.

Par. 100.

The Government Departments concerned should collect and publish information as to the control and ownership of markets and any relative information likely to be useful.

So far as the Ministry of Agriculture is concerned, this proposal will receive consideration in connection with the marketing investigations referred to above.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 246.

Advances to agricultural cooperative societies.

A sum of £200,000 has been provided by Parliament to enable the Ministry to make loan to develop forms of co-operation directed to the preparation and marketing of agricultural produce. A committee of business men and persons interested in co-operation has been appointed to advise the Ministry in regard to the making of these loans. Loans to the extent of about £25,000 have been approved to date.

Cmd. 1892: Par. 336.

Cmd. 1927: Pars. 426, 459.

Cmd. 2008: Pars 73–78.

Cmd. 1927: Pars. 373, 379, 388, 437.

The Departments of Health should use their influence to restrict the market tolls and charges levied by local authorities.

The Ministry of Health consults the Ministry of Agriculture in this matter and such action as is possible is taken in the direction suggested.

All Reports.

Railway rates and charges.

The reports of the Committee contain various recommendations as regards railway rates and charges. These recommendations have been brought to the notice of the railway companies and of the Ministry of Transport.

Reference to Report and Paragraph.

Recommendation.

Action taken.

All Reports.

General recommendations with regard to the promotion of agricultural co-operation.

The Ministry of Agriculture is giving much attention to this question in connection with the marketing investigations at present in hand. The reports referred to above will include reports on agricultural co-operation. The National Farmers' Union also has the question under consideration.

Statement B

Summary of certain recommendations of the Linlithgow Committee which do not admit of legislative or administrative action.

Reference.

Recommendations.

Remarks.

Cmd. 1854: Par. 225.

Businesses engaged in the combined operation of Wholesaling-retailing in London and elsewhere on a margin of 1s. a gallon should be in a position to make some concession either to producer or to consumer.

The Board of Trade held a Conference on the 17th July, 1923, attended by representatives of the milk trade, to discuss the Committee's Report. By the contracts made under the N.F.U. scheme for the year 1923–24 the combined margin was reduced to 11d. per gallon during three months in the winter. For 1924–25 the combined margin on the average will remain the same as in 1923–24.

Par. 227.

The practice which obtains in certain parts of the country of farmers selling milk to their own employés at wholesale rates should be more generally adopted.

Under the Agricultural Wages Act, 1924, it is permissible for Local Wages Committees to fix the rate at which milk is to be calculated as a benefit in lieu of cash wages.

Pars. 229, 230.

The present average margins of distributive profit arising out of the wholesaling and retailing of cream are unduly high in many cases, and should be capable of considerable reduction.

The retail margin in the case of condensed milk should also be reduced.

Par. 231.

The principle of collective bargaining as exemplified in the recent agreements between milk producers and distributors is sound and should be maintained. The method of buying excess supplies on the basis of their potential value for manufacturing purposes is a feature of special importance.

The principle of collective bargaining appears to have been more extensively adopted as regards 1923–24 and was maintained for 1924–25. As regards London, the method of paying for excess quantities on the basis of the price of imported cheese has been maintained.

Par. 232.

As regards the existing London agreement the deduction from farmers' prices made by creamery proprietors in respect of transit risks should be substantially reduced.

No change has been made.

Par 233.

As regards future agreements, producers and distributors should consider the advisability of providing for the purchase of milk at farmers' stations, rather than at those of the buyers, in order to avoid excessive haulage by rail.

So far as is known, the principle of purchase at farmers' station has not been adopted.

Reference.

Recommendations.

Remarks.

Par. 234

Producers should press for a form of contract with distributors which enables them to retain the option of disposing of the surplus in the most remunerative manner on their own farms or under their own auspices.

The forms of contract in use this year allow, in many cases, for producers to retain surplus milk on their farms.

Par. 250.

The railway companies should consider the question of differential rates in favour of the 10 or 12 gallon churn as against the 17-gallon churn now largely used, in view of the saving in truck space that would result.

The question of differential rates for 10–12 gallon churns as against 17-gallon churns has been considered by a joint committee of the National Farmers' Union and the Railway Companies' Association. The companies are not prepared to give special rates for the smaller churns on the ground that any saving in truck space would be more than counterbalanced by extra cost of handling.

Cmd. 1892: Par. 293.

Installation of Post Office telephones at railway station offices.

The railway companies are extending telephone systems to goods yards, etc., but this can only be done where it is economically justified.

Par. 295.

In many of the principal distributive markets porterage is charged on the produce handled. These charges should be clearly scheduled, exhibited in each market, and revised from time to time to meet changing conditions.

Par. 296.

Many growers undertake their own unloading, but in some markets derive no corresponding relief from porterage charges. Certain charges on unloading at Covent Garden and the Borough Market should only be enforced when unloading is required by the grower and should otherwise be substantially reduced or discontinued.

So far as Covent Garden is concerned, this recommendation has been carried out as from January of the present year.

Cmd. 1927: Par. 368.

There is evidence that butchers and dealers frequently form "rings" at auction sales. The representative organisations of dealers and butchers, in consultation with the Auctioneers' Institute, should endeavour to put a stop to this practice.

Collaboration between the Auctioneers' Institute and the representative organisations of dealers and butchers in regard to this matter has not been found practicable.

Par. 374.

Sales accounts rendered by auctioneers should state clearly the gross price realised and the deductions made, such as tolls, commission and any other charges. The profession should adopt this method for all sales of stock in the markets.

The Auctioneers' Institute has discussed this recommendation, but does not consider that any advantage would accrue to either producer or consumer by its adoption.

Par. 390.

The current rate of commission at Smithfield is 4d. per stone of 8 lbs. and is almost exactly double the pre-War Charge per unit weight of fresh meat handled. This increase is greater than is justified.

So far as is known, there has been no move in the direction of reducing this charge.

Reference.

Recommendations.

Remarks.

Par. 408.

In all markets where such a course is feasible, a system of insurance against loss from post-mortem condemnation should be initiated. The parties concerned should endeavour to promote the formation of schemes, while the Auctioneers' Institute might with advantage collaborate and advise. Local authorities possessing public abattoirs should do all in their power to encourage these endeavours.

This question has been discussed between the National Farmers' Union and the National Federation of Meat Traders' Associations.

Par. 421.

Bacon curers should adopt a system of payment for quality. They seem reluctant to do so for fear of offending producers. In Denmark the permanence of the supply of suitable bacon pigs has been assured by the establishment in conjunction with the factories of breeding centres, from which producers can obtain suitable stock.

This is a question which has been brought to the public notice by the Press, and in articles in the Ministry's Journal. For example see p. 513 of Ministry's Journal of September, 1923.

Par. 447.

The production of table poultry in this country might be developed to a greater extent. Retailers should seek to increase their sales by aiming at a somewhat lower margin of profit and thus converting the poultry trade into less of a luxury business than it is at present.

Cmd. 1971: Par. 196.

Experimental establishment of granaries or warehouses in grain-producing areas.

The possibility of any action on these lines is being investigated in connection with the marketing investigation which the Ministry has now in hand.

Par. 208.

It should be possible in some cases to retail flour at a somewhat smaller margin than is now obtained.

Par. 212.

Local associations of bakers in places where distributive costs are appreciably above the average owe it to the consuming public to investigate the circumstances, with a view to early and substantial reduction.

Par 229.

Production and sale of Yeoman flour and the All-English Loaf.

Much has been done in the direction of selling All-English flour within the limits of available supply. A leaflet entitled, "Home Grown Wheat for Bread Making" (No. 79), has recently been issued by the Ministry.

Cmd. 2008. Par. 19.

Organisations of producers should make it their business to study closely the systems of marketing and distribution.

Organisations of producers are devoting increasing attention to these matters.

Par. 24.

Organisations of distributors should seek to increase the effectiveness of their trades and work steadily forward in the direction of devising less expensive methods and of adapting their trading policies to the fundamental requirements of economical distribution.

Reference.

Recommendations.

Remarks.

Par. 37.

The compilation of statistics to determine the incidence of the burden of constructional and maintenance charges of public highways as between country and town should be continued.

This is being done.

Par. 49.

Lack of account-keeping in small businesses. Need for training young men in retail business methods.

It is understood that training of this nature is provided at a number of centres throughout the country.

Pars. 50–53.

Possibility of reduction of retail prices by reduction in services (delivery, etc.) demanded by consumers. Establishment of retail markets under municipal control.

Ouse Drainage Act

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will publish the Report of the public inquiry held last March into the Ouse Drainage Act; and if he is aware that, owing to the delay, charges for rates are accumulating, causing grave dissatisfaction to a large number of people who receive no benefit whatever under this Act?

I regret that I can at present add nothing to the information given by my predecessor to my hon. Friend in reply to a similar question on 28th July last. I shall be very happy to confer with my hon. Friend if he so desires.

Wages (District Settlements)

asked the Minister of Agriculture the names of those districts which have settled the wages to be paid under the Agricultural Wages Act, the amount agreed upon in each case, and the wages paid in each district prior to any recent settlement?

Minimum rates of wages have not yet been definitely fixed by any of the agricultural wages committees, but I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the names of the committees which have reached preliminary decisions on the subject, together with particulars of the rates affecting adult male workers. No complete particulars are available as to the wages recently paid, but the statement includes such information as is in the possession of my Department, in regard to the weekly wages prevailing in the month of October last for ordinary agricultural labourers.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether or not he was expressing the opinion of His Majesty's Government when he warned farmers against fixing economic wages for land workers under the terms of the recent Agricultural Wages Act?

I do not know to what report my hon. Friend refers, but I am afraid that I do not recognise remarks of mine in the quotation he has made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that publicity has been given to a statement supposed to have been made at Chelmsford, where he warned the farmers against fixing what might be ultimately uneconomic wages?

Yes, I did, and I should think it my duty to warn both them and the agricultural labourers in the same sense whenever I speak on the same subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the exact terms of the recent Agricultural Wages Act merely ask that wages shall be paid that will enable the men to live in decency and in accordance with the work that they do?

I think I know the terms of that Act as well as the hon. Gentleman, but I do not think that it is very easy to debate the exact meaning of the Act across the Floor of the House by question and answer. If the hon. Member reads my speech again he will see that I have not misrepresented the Act.

Following is the statement promised :

AGRICULTURAL WAGES COMMITTEES.

Areas in which Decisions have been reached with regard to the Minimum Rates the Committees propose to fix.

Agricultural Wages Committee.

Rates proposed for special classes of adult workers (if any).

Rates proposed for other adult male workers.

End of period for which rates will apply.

Wages prevailing for ordinary agricultural workers in October, 1924.

s.

d.

*Bedfordshire & Huntingdon.

29s. for a week of 48 hours.

29th March, 1925.

27

0

*Berkshire

29s. 2d. for a week of 50 hours.

30th September, 1925.

26

0

*Buckinghamshire.

30s. for a week of 50 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

Last Saturday in October, 1925.

27

0

*Cambridge shire and Isle of Ely.

Horsemen, Cowmen, Shepherds: 37s. for a week of the hours necessary for the performance of customary duties.

30s. for a week of 48 hours.

28th February, 1925.

25

0

°Cumberland, Westmorland and Furness.

Workers hired on half-yearly or yearly engagements: 37s. for a week of customary hours.

30s. for a week of 54 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

30th May, 1925

30

0

Derbyshire

8d. per hour for a guaranteed week of 54 hours.

15th December, 1925.

31

6

*Dorsetshire

30s. for a week of 51 hours.

6 months from the date of operation.

26

0

*Durham

Horsemen: 32s. per week of 50 hours with additional sums for extra time spent in attention to horses.

32s. for a week of 50 hours.

13th May, 1925

32

0

Stockmen and Shepherds: For the hours customarily spent in attention to stock, wages ranging from 36s. to 43s. per week.

*Essex

30s. for a week of 50 hours in summer and 48 in winter.

3 months from the date of operation.

27

0

Hampshire and Isle of Wight.

30s. for a week of 50 hours.

11th October, 1925.

27

0

Herefordshire

31s. for a week of 52 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

27

0

Leicestershire and Rutland.

Leicestershire: 34s. for a week of 54 hours.

30

6

Rutland: 32s. 6d. for a week of 54 hours.

Lincoln: Parts of Holland.

36s. for a week of 48 hours.

First Saturday in April.

31

0

Agricultural Wages Committee.

Rates proposed for special classes of adult workers (if any).

Rates proposed for other adult male workers.

End of period for which rates will apply.

Wages prevailing for ordinary agricultural workers in October, 1924.

s.

d.

Parts of Kesteven and Lindsey.

Horsemen: As for other workers with the addition of 7s. per week in respect of extra hours spent in attendance on horses.

32s. for a week of 52 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

28

0

Stockmen and Shepherds: As for other workers with the addition of 6s. and 5s. per week respectively for extra hours spent in attendance on animals.

Middlesex

Stockmen: 41s. 3d. for a week of 60 hours. Carters: 38s. 6d. for a week of 56 hours.

34s. 4½d. for a week of 50 hours in summer. 33s. for a week of 48 hours in winter.

12 months from the date of operation.

29

0

*Norfolk

Teamsmen, Cowmen, Shepherds: As for other workers with the addition of 5s. 6d. per week for extra hours spent in attendance on horses. Sheep-tenders and Bullock-tenders: As for other workers with the addition of 4s. 6d. per week for extra hours spent in attention to animals.

29s. for a week of 50 hours in summer. 28s. for a week of 48 hours in winter.

10th October, 1925.

25

0

Northampton-shire and Soke of Peterborough.

30s. for a week of 50 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

Until the end of the summer period.

28

0

Nottinghamshire

32s. for a week of 50 hours.

31st October, 1925.

30

0

Oxfordshire

30s. for a week of 50 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

25

0

Shropshire

7d. per hour for a guaranteed week of 54 hours.

30

0

Somerset

32s. for a week of 52 hours

28

6

Staffordshire

7d. per hour for a guaranteed week of 54 hours.

27th June, 1925.

30

0

*Suffolk

Horsemen, Stockmen. Shepherds: As for other workers with the addition of 6s. per week for extra hours spent in attention to animals.

7d. per hour for a guaranteed week of 50 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

25

0

Surrey

Stockmen, Shepherds, Horsemen: 38s. 9d. for for a week of 60 hours.

32s. 3d. for a week of 50 hours.

29

6

Warwickshire

30s. for a week of 50 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

Last Saturday in October, 1925.

27

6

Worcestershire

30s. for a week of 53 hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

27

0

Agricultural Wages Committee.

Rates proposed for special classes of adult workers (if any).

Rates proposed for other adult male workers.

End of period for which rates will apply.

Wages prevailing for ordinary agricultural workers in October, 1924.

Yorkshire, North Riding.

33s. for a week of 52½ hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

Until the end of the summer period.

30

0

Yorkshire, East Riding.

Wages fixed for a number of special classes who are in receipt of board and lodging.

34s. for a week of 52½ hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

23rd November, 1925.

32

6

Yorkshire, West Riding.

36s. for a week of 52½ hours in summer and 48 hours in winter.

35

0

٭Anglesey and Carnarvon.

Horsemen, Cowmen, Shepherds and Hwsmyn (Bailiffs), 35s. for a week of 58 hours.

30s. for a week of 50 hours.

13th May, 1925.

29

0

٭Radnor and Brecon.

31s. for a week of 52 hours in summer and 50 hours in winter.

2nd April, 1925.

29

0

NOTES 1.—Before minimum rates can be fixed Committees are required to give not less than 14 days' notice of the rates propose, and must consider any objections which may be lodged within such period. In the cases marked ٭ above, such statutory notice has already been given.

2.—In some of the above cases the Committees have also reached preliminary decisions in regard to minimum rates for boys and female workers and overtime rates.

Ex-Service Men

Office of Works

asked the First Commissioner of Works what is the number of higher clerical, executive, and administrative posts in his Department; and what number of these posts is held by ex-service men?

There are 114 such posts (7 are vacant at present) Of the 107 officers holding these posts, 70 are ex-service men.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us with regard to the recruitments from outside for vacant posts, whether they will be confined to ex-service men?

All things being equal, preference has been given, and will be given, to ex-service men.

King's Roll

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the continued unemployment of 700,000 ex-service men and the large number of business firms and local authorities who have not complied with the requirements of the King's Roll, he will give notice that alter the lapse of a reasonable period, say after 31st March next, the names of all such firms and authorities will be publicly exhibited in the post offices of each area?

A suggestion that the names of local authorities not on the King's National Roll should be published was discussed by the King's Roll National Council in their Interim Report of July, 1923 (Cmd. 1919) and definitely rejected, for reasons which are given in the Report and which still hold true at the present date. The same reasons apply with at least equal force to the publication of names of employers other than local authorities. I should perhaps add that the number of unemployed ex-service men is certainly not as large as 700,000, and that the King's Roll Scheme applies only to disabled men.

As a matter of fact, does not the Report to which the right hon. Gentleman refers deal with the absence of success of the persuasive method, and, as the persuasive method has failed, could not some other method be taken?

The question is whether any other steps would produce better results, or whether they might not have the result of making things not so satisfactory as they are at present. It is from that point of view I am seriously considering the hon. Member's question.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman consider this matter from the other angle, namely, that of putting up in the local post office lists of those who have complied with this condition?

I will consider it. I am rather of opinion that that has already been done.

Armaments (Export Licences)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his Department was informed during the present year of any export of machine-guns or other war material to the Soviet Government of Russia; if so, when these transactions took place; of what nature they were; and whether the present Government will permit further exports of this nature?

Licences were issued during the past year for the export of war material, including 600 Vickers machine-guns, to the Soviet Government, and the bulk of this material was shipped during the late spring and summer months. It not the intention of the Government to issue licences for the export of further war material to that destination.

Will licences be permitted for the issuing of these things to other governments?

British Shipping (Statistics)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the proportion of the shipping of the United Kingdom of the world's tonnage, according to the latest available figures, compared with the year 1913?

In June of this year Great Britain and Ireland owned about 30 per cent. of the world's tonnage, as compared with about 40 per cent. in June, 1913. These percentages are based on the aggregate tonnages (gross) of sailing, steam and motor vessels of and above 100 tons gross, as published in Lloyd's Register Book.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the net national earnings of shipping of the United Kingdom for the year 1913; the earnings for the years 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923, respectively; and the amounts of tonnage entering the United Kingdom for similar periods?

As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The "Board of Trade Journal" for 31st January, 1924, contains the following estimates of the "Net national shipping income" of the United Kingdom:—1913, £94,000,000; 1920, £340,000,000; 1922, £110,000,000; 1923, £110,000,000. No estimates have been made for 1919 and 1921.

The tonnage of vessels engaged in foreign trade which entered United Kingdom ports during each of the years mentioned was:

Net Tons.

1913

82,149,000

1919

49,652,000

1920

53,718,000

1921

55,307,000

1922

76,246,000

1923

90,363,000

Southern Irish ports, and terminating their voyages at such ports, have not been included in the records of foreign trade of the United Kingdom since 1st April, 1923.

Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a very large number of the members of the Mercantile Marine are out of employment; and whether, in view of this fact, he will take all necessary steps to enforce the provisions of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, which lays it down that no former enemy alien shall be employed or shall act as master, officer, or be a member of the crew of a British ship registered in the United Kingdom?

Under the Protocol to the Anglo-German Commercial Treaty His Majesty's Government have undertaken to recommend to Parliament the removal in the case of Germans of the special restriction imposed by Section 12 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919. I am aware that there is unemployment in the Mercantile Marine; but I anticipate that the provisions' of the Treaty, so far from increasing that unemployment, will tend to reduce it by enabling British ships to obtain a larger share of emigrant traffic.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that considerable anxiety prevails among the Members of the Mercantile Marine on this point, and will the House have an opportunity of debating the matter before the ratification of the Treaty?

Has the right hon. Gentleman yet had an opportunity of considering a petition which was forwarded to his Department and received on 17th November last from an association of British unemployed seamen in Cardiff City, and will he say whether he has had inquiries made by local representatives of the Board of Trade in that city, and what action His Majesty's Government propose to take?

I have had an opportunity of discussing this matter with those who represent the interests of seamen. I am aware that some anxiety has been felt, largely owing to misunderstandings as to what the real position is—misunderstandings which I hope I have eradicated from my hon. Friend's mind. With regard to the third question, the House will have an opportunity of discussing this matter when the Bill is introduced.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two organisations have been met and that they are diametrically opposed as to policy, and that, therefore, there is no agreement with the Board of Trade on the matter?

I did not say that there was agreement between all organisations; I said, that I had had an opportunity of consultation, and I am satisfied that the vast majority are completely satisfied with what has been done.

Bread (Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state what variations there have been in London in the price of the 4 lb. loaf since October, 1922; and whether such variations are attributable to poor or good harvests, the holding up or releasing of supplies, political influences, or to what causes?

As the answer is long and contains a table of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The latter part of the question does not relate to figures. Can the right hon. Gentleman answer that?

Generally I can state that the figures showing reductions or increases in the price of bread have been associated, during the period in respect of which the question is asked, with changes of a like character in the prices of flour and wheat.

Following is the answer:

The changes in the price of bread per 4 1bs. in London announced by the Associations of Master Bakers since October, 1922, are shown in the following statement, together with the selling price of London-made straight-run flour at the dates when changes were made, and the

Prices of Bread, Flour and Wheat in London.

Dates of Changes in Price of Bread in London.

Price of Bread per 4 lbs. in London.

Price of London-made straight-run Flour per 280 lbs.

London Corn Exchange Quotations for No. 1 Northern Manitoba Wheat per 496 lbs. ex Ship. Ship.

d.

s.

d.

1922–28th August

9

42s.

52

0

1923–29th October

8

36s. 6d.—37s.٭

47

3

1924–18th February

38s. 6d.

52

0

7th July

9

40s. 6d.

55

0

11th August

47s. 6d.†

62

0

6th October

10

50s.‡

72

6

٭Reduced on the following day by 6d.

† Reduced on the following day by 2s.

‡ Increased on the following day by 2s.

No general change in the price of bread in London has been made since 6th October.

As will be seen, reductions or increases in the price of bread have been associated with changes of a like character in the prices of flour and of wheat.

Royal Navy

New Cruisers (Construction)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the five replacement cruisers have all been laid down; and if it is intended immediately to proceed with the construction of the three further vessels deleted from the original Conservative programme?

The answer to the first part of the question is "Yes, Sir." It is not proposed to lay down any further cruisers during the present financial year.

In view of the slow progress already made with new construction, will the Government speed it up?

Invalided Ratings (Appeals)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty when it is proposed to set up quoted price on those dates of a leading variety of imported wheat, for the purpose of comparison:

an independent tribunal to whom naval invalided ratings may appeal against the decisions of naval surgeons as to non-attributability or degree of disablement?

This matter has been very carefully considered, and it has been decided not to set up an appeals tribunal for post-War invaliding cases.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these are the only cases not allowed such appeal, and that great dissatisfaction occurs in consequence of this fact?

The hon. Member is no doubt aware that an appeal is possible to the Board of Admiralty, who invariably consider sympathetically the cases submitted to them.

German Warships (Scapa Flow)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state, in regard to the salvage of the German warships at Scapa Flow, whether they are to be broken up and, if so, where?

Is the hon. Gentleman not of opinion that it is a very unprofitable business breaking up these iron ships? Would it not be very much better to use these ships, with a certain amount of concrete in them, for making harbours at the various places round the coast where harbours are required? Some of the best harbours in Scotland have been made with old ships filled with concrete.

Pension Claims and Appeals

64 and 65.

asked the Minister of Pensions (1) what is the total number of claims under Article 17A submitted since 4th January, 1924, and what is the total number of claims admitted under this Article;

(2) what is the total number of claims submitted to the Ministry under Article 17B since 4th January 1924; what is the total number allowed by the Ministry; what is the total number of cases where the widow has appealed to the tribunal; and what is the total number of successful appeals?

Approximately 1,000 claims have been made, under Article 17 of the Royal Warrant of 14th January last, since its issue. Of these, in 236 cases pension has been awarded under Article 17A and in 371 cases pension has been awarded under Article 17B. The latter figure includes 92 cases in which pension under Article 17B was awarded on appeal.

asked the Minister of Pensions what is the number of out-of-time appeals referred to the tribunal by the Pensions Minister; and what is the number of such appeals that the tribunal have found themselves competent to hear?

The total number of appeals of the kind referred to which have come before the appeal tribunals is, up to the end of November, 3,588, or 3 per cent. of the total number of appeals made to the tribunals on assessment. In 715 of these cases, or 20 per cent. of the whole number, the tribunals ruled that they were competent to hear the appeals.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman now giving consideration to the question as to how notices of the time have been sent out, whether by ordinary post or by registered post, and, if by registered post, how long has that system been in vogue?

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware if the practice in the various courts of appeal is the same in the different areas?

Unemployment Benefit (Disqualification)

asked the Minister of Labour how many men have been disqualified by the managers and committees attached to Employment Exchanges during the past three months on the ground that they were persons not genuinely seeking employment; and will he state the ages of such men and the number and ages of men disqualified for the same reason during the same period of 1923?

During the period 1st August to 10th November, 1924, the number of applications by men for unemployment benefit rejected by local employment committees or the Chief Insurance Officer on the ground that the applicants were not making every reasonable effort to obtain suitable employment or were not genuinely seeking work was about 17,000, as compared with 29,842 in the period 31st July to 12th November, 1923. I am unable to give particulars of the ages of those disqualified for benefit. Perhaps I may add that the statutory disqualifications are not really interpreted by the managers of the Exchanges. All the managers do is to submit the cases to the committee.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of men whose claims are turned down by the rota committees are denied appeal forms under Section 8 of the Act; and will he issue instructions to the effect that no men are to be deprived of their rights under the Act?

I do not know that men are deprived of their rights under the Act. If the hon. Member will give me any cases I will see that they are looked into.

In how many cases have decisions of local committees been reversed by the right hon. Gentleman's Department if a mistake has been made?

The hon. and gallant Member will have to give me notice of that question.

Political Prosecutions (Cabinet Instruction)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether the instruction to which he referred in answer to a question on Thursday as having been given by the late Cabinet was one which referred only to prosecutions of a political character undertaken in the interest of the State, when considerations of sound public policy as well as technical law had to be taken into account; whether as a matter of fact it has been the usual practice for the Cabinet or a Committee of the Cabinet to consider the advisability of undertaking prosecutions of a political character on the ground that they raise questions of public policy and State advantage as well as of technical law; and whether he has examined the records of previous Governments and found in them ample precedents for the instruction which he condemned?

In answer to the first part of the question, I am informed that the instruction given was that no public prosecution of a political character should be undertaken without the prior sanction of the Cabinet being obtained, and that the instruction did not include the additional words suggested in the question. As to the second part of the question, I am informed that it has not been the usual practice for the Cabinet, or a Committee of the Cabinet, to consider the advisability of undertaking prosecutions of any kind. I have no doubt that in particular cases of an exceptional character the Attorney-General before undertaking a prosecution has consulted the Cabinet as to the public interests involved. That, however, appears to be an entirely different matter from the issue of general instructions which would have the effect of placing the Attorney-General in a position of complete subservience to an executive authority, and I am not aware of any precedent for such an instruction.

It is quite obvious that it is impossible to get the facts—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—I am rising to give notice—it is, as I say, impossible to get the facts by question and answer, and I give notice that, on the Motion for Adjournment on Friday, I shall raise the matter, and I hope in the meantime I may be able to give the information I have hinted at in my question.

Business of the House

Motion made, and Question proposed:

"That the Proceedings on the Irish Free State Land Purchase (Loan Guarantee) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The Motion is not open for Debate. We cannot get more than the Second Reading to-day, because it is a Money Bill.

I put the Motion down in order that any question might be raised or any information desired might be given, but I understood the Bill was non-controversial. If it looks like leading to a protracted Debate, it is not my intention to ask the House to sit late.

Question put, and agreed to.

Northern Ireland Land Bill,

"to amend the Law relating to the Occupation and Ownership of Land in Northern Ireland; and for other purposes relating thereto," presented by Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS; supported by Lord Eustace Percy; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 13.]

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[THIRD DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [9

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:

Most Gracious Sovereign,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Mr. Ellis. ]

Question again proposed.

Foreign Affairs

I rise for the purpose of moving the Amendment, which stands in my name on the Paper, in regard to Egypt and Russia.

On a point of Order. I am, of course, at the service of the House, but I understand that if the right hon. Gentleman moves his Amendment, both his speech and all the subsequent Debate must be confined within the limits of that Amendment. If that be the wish of the House, I am content. If, on the other hand, the House wants any further statement from me, of course, if the right hon. Gentleman concludes by moving his Amendment, though he has freedom of speech in moving it, I shall be restrained by the terms of the Amendment which he has moved.

Technically that is so. After an Amendment is placed before the House, discussion should be confined within the terms of the Amendment. I do not know whether there is any desire in the House for any other course.

On that point of Order. It is always impossible to foresee in this House how events happen, and this business was arranged before certain events had happened. I think it would be a great pity if we were confined only to a debate on Egypt and Russia. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman has any suggestion to make, but might we not proceed either by confining ourselves to those subjects to-day, and discovering some other means before the end of the week for the right hon. Gentleman to make to us a statement upon his mission to Rome, or managing somehow or other to widen the Debate to-day?

I thought that that might be the desire of the right hon. Gentleman and of the House, and, provided the Rules permit, I can, of course, make a brief statement upon the recent journey that I have undertaken. I would venture to suggest that the most convenient thing, if that is desired, is that the right hon. Gentleman should open the question generally and make the speech which, in fact, he is prepared to make, but not immediately move his Amendment. The discussion would then be open on the wider field, and at whatever moment the Opposition thinks it should be concentrated on the particular questions covered by the Amendment, that can be secured by the simple process of some Gentleman on the Front Bench raising his hat to move the Amendment on the Paper. I submit that, subject to your judgment, Mr. Speaker, as being a practical way out of the difficulty.

That would seem to me convenient and, at the same time, within the rules, if that be agreeable.

I think that, although the House is rightly and unquestionably anxious to hear what the Foreign Secretary has to say, the two subjects which I am bound to introduce to-day under the Amendment which I have brought forward are really sufficiently large in themselves for a general Debate, and I certainly do not intend to go outside them myself. I cannot help feeling that, although we want to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say, I hope two subjects as great as these will almost alone occupy most of the rest of the Debate and the attention of the House. I do not think this is going to be a dull Parliament. I have now sat in this House at the start of no fewer than seven Parliaments—such has been my fortune—and I have never seen first-class issues spring so quickly to the front. Already these two questions which I am raising to-day, in criticism of the action of the Government, are likely, good or bad, to produce results which we shall be debating at the end of this Parliament as well as at the beginning.

I will begin with Egypt, and let us go together as far as we can. There is no difference in this House or in this country in our reprobation of the horrible crime which has given rise to the present crisis. The moving and indignant words of my right hon. Friend the late Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister were read by all the country and approved by them, and it is clear that no conceivable Government of this country could have failed to demand condign punishment for the perpetrators and security against a recurrence of such a crime in so far as security could be obtained. But though we all wish the same ends, I am equally sure that the Labour Government, had it continued in office, would not have sent such a Note as the present Government sent. However angry the Cabinet were, I do not think they should have allowed their indignation to be expressed either in the tone or by the methods which they adopted. First of all, I think that the suggestion was particularly deplorable, almost amounting to an accusation of personal guilt of Zaghloul Pasha and his Government—I think the suggestion of their guilt was a deplorable thing to put in the Note. The words used were:

I believe that accusation is perfectly baseless. The House will recollect that Zaghloul Pasha himself was the victim of an attempt through the extreme Egyptian Nationalists only a few months ago, and it is not very likely that he had any love for them. I believe the accusation to be baseless, and I must say that I think it is very unwise of the Government to make an indictment of another Government like that unless it has absolute and indisputable evidence, and I will ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has got it. The action of our Government in regard to this crime has been compared to the Notes which were sent after similar crimes in the case of Serbia and in the case of Greece. We all remember the Note of Austria to Serbia, which was the original cause of the difficulties which led to the Great War. That Note was generally reprobated in this country as a great deal too violent. But I would remind the House that even in the case of that Note of Austria to Serbia it was issued nearly a month after the murder of the Archduke, and that the serious accusations which were made against the Serbian Government were based upon the findings of a criminal inquiry which had taken place into the Archduke's murder. There had been no inquiry into this case before the Government made their accusation against the Egyptian Government.

There has been another comparison made. There is an unpleasant and an uncanny similarity between the recent Note of our Government to Egypt and the Note which Italy sent recently to Greece, of which also there was a chorus of disapproval in this country. In manner and contents the two Notes are singularly similar down actually to the sum exacted from the Egyptian Government. It looks as if the Government in their anxiety to get away from Communism had taken as a model the manners of the Fascistic dictator. But they went further than did the Note of Signor Mussolini. They tacked on to their demands which have some relevance to the murder a series of political demands. Everyone in this House is aware of our unsettled relations with Egypt in regard to certain important matters. Certain unsolved difficulties were exempted from the document in which Egypt was given her independence, and my right hon. Friend the late Foreign Secretary failed to negotiate an agreement with Zaghloul Pasha and the Egyptian Government on several of these questions. They have got to be settled some day. The normal method is to settle them by discussion or arbitration. The Government have chosen to seize this opportunity to do it by force; to impose the British view and not to get it agreed to. Our claims are no more right and no more wrong than they were before the terrible murder of the Sirdar.

Of all the questions which have been dragged in by the Government the maximum irrelevance is in the announcement about their determination to take an unlimited supply of water from the Nile for irrigation in the Sudan. Surely that is a very unfortunate step for our general credit before the world. We use the occasion of this tragedy to enforce a proposition which has an immediate commercial advantage. The shares of the Sudan Plantation Syndicate rise at once. The "Times" next day says, "A spectacular rise." It really does not afford a justification that we may here, all of us, be convinced that the withdrawal of this water from the Nile is not, in fact, going to injure the Egyptian cultivator. My right hon. Friend Mr. MacDonald has said that that is his conviction. But that was the issue before Sir Lee Stack's murder. The Egyptians would not agree to it before, because they were apprehensive. Are they likely to be less apprehensive now? This provision occurred in an ultimatum which is in its nature punitive. How are the Egyptians likely, suspicious in the first instance, to put any interpretation upon it but that we know their fears to be true and that we intend them to suffer?

In a sense, this ultimatum has been successful. Egypt has bowed to our will; she could not do otherwise. But a successful ultimatum is not necessarily successful statesmanship. They were brave words, or rather they would have been brave words, if they had been addressed to the United States of America or to France. They were not quite so brave addressed to a country that cannot answer back and can only obey our bayonets. Therein lies the disaster, as we think the international disaster, of the Note which has been sent to Egypt. An integral part of the ideas which most of us, I should think on both sides of the House, were hoping would gradually begin to dominate the world is that small nations are equal to great nations in the eyes of justice. We are all saying that the League of Nations is the only security for the future. If law is to reign instead of force, we may be prosecutors and accusers still of small nations and big nations, but we cannot be bullies any longer. Whether we are pleading a good cause or a bad cause, we cannot be bullies. The League of Nations rests on the rock that all nations are equal in the councils of the world, and I say again that this Note would never have been sent to a great nation.

I should like to know what is the real position of Egypt now. Egypt is an independent State. It is true it is independent with qualifications, but it is independent de jure. I wonder if it is still independent de facto. Owing to our action, the only possible popular Government in Egypt has fallen. Owing to our action, Ministers who suit us and not the Egyptians are in office. Owing to our action, political demonstrations have to come to an end. Is a nation politically independent where political demonstrations cannot be held? Arrests of Egyptian politicians are made by British military authorities. I should like to ask what is the view of the Government. Here is the bargain. We have arranged the independence of Egypt. Is it the view of the Government that Egypt is still independent, or is the independence in temporary abeyance, and, if so, for how long? I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will say that that question is unreasonable on my part.

The other day, the right hon. Member for Antrim (Mr. H. O'Neill) made a speech in this House in which he gave a welcoming paean to the strong Government that had come into office, and he went on to say what pretty clearly implied that he wished us to go back on the real gift of Egyptian independence. He spoke of how, since the War, we had gone Parliament mad. What we do in Egypt cannot be isolated. What we say about Egypt and what we do in Egypt has its repercussion in India. There is no responsible politician I am perfectly certain on the other side of the House, any more than there is on this side, but whose deepest anxiety is what is likely to happen in India and all the difficulties that face us there. The principal difficulty there is mistrust of our intentions. It is the attitude, if not the faith, of almost all native Indian politicians now, and, if we retract the reality of Egyptian independence when the first difficulty occurs, what is going to be the effect in India? They will have little faith in our persistence towards self-government there. I, therefore, hope that the Government are going to try to find some way out of this difficulty other than mere persistence in force.

It was easy at the beginning of the Parliament which met after the War to laugh at the difficulties in Ireland. We did not and by laughing at them, and those who, in the first instance, thought them slight had to adopt a policy which they would never have dreamed of at the beginning of that Parliament. Do not let us ignore the possibilities of what may happen in Egypt. Remember that the Egyptian people, even with their qualified independence, have had an independence more complete than even the Irish had in 1919. If you are, in fact, going to withdraw it from them, you may have in the long run in one form or another very much the same results. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to close the door completely and summarily to the idea of submitting our difficulties in Egypt and the Sudan to the League of Nations. It is not a question principally of legality. Lord Cecil of Chelwood may be quite right. Egypt has no status in the League of Nations. I do not know, but merely as a matter of curiosity I wish the right hon. Gentleman would tell us whether it is that Egypt has never asked, or that we have refused to allow. It may be that all the questions raised in the Note of the Government are all covered by the reservations in the Settlement of 1922.

I do not raise the question of legality. It is not a point of legality; it is a question of statesmanship. As a nation we are pledged to the League of Nations. We believe it to be the only safe way of settling difficulties between nations, but we can never succeed unless the great nations of the world will send great questions for settlement to the League. It seems to me that in this question it is we who should go to the League of Nations. There is no doubt about our ability to call in its jurisdiction. We may be perfectly right—I think we are right—if we think Egypt has no legal status. But there is nothing to prevent us from utilising the 11th Article of the Covenant—the right to bring to the attention of the Council matters threatening to disturb the good understanding between nations. There is no reason why we should not do that, and how should we be the losers if we have got a good case? The real question is, do we care most for getting our own way exactly as we see it ourselves, and being judges in our own case, or do we prefer, as I think we ought, to put ourselves absolutely right with the world, and, what is more, by going to the League of Nations, give to the League of Nations the most tremendous increase of prestige that it could possibly get, if it were called in in a case like this by the greatest nation in the world that could help the League of Nations onward I All, probably, but a very insignificant minority in this House, wish the League of Nations well. We know it is the only resource against future Armagedons, and the only way in which it can become such a resource is if, on occasions like this, great nations, who have nothing to lose by calling in that resource, put their case before it and say, "We will be the first in a matter which concerns us intimately, which we could even keep out of your jurisdiction." I believe there is nothing which could raise the League of Nations higher, almost in an instant, than if we were to confide our fortunes and our rights in this great matter to them.

As I told the House, I have been long here, and I have no great belief in long Front Bench speeches, and I am not going to speak long. I shall only take part of the possible discussion on the question of Russia. I shall leave part of the subject to others. The combined victory of the Conservative and Liberal parties made the dropping of the guaranteed loan politically inevitable. But what was not inevitable was the dropping of the rest of the Treaties. So far as I could make out, the rest of the Treaties had the approval of the Liberal party, and, at any rate, was never subjected to any very serious attack from the Conservatives. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I will say, then, not officially attacked. And, indeed, what serious case could be made out for failing to try to get into operation most of the other parts of the Treaties which do not concern the loan? Most of the general Treaty has nothing to do with the loan. There are all the early Clauses which settle the political relations between the two countries, and by which it is settled what Treaties are obsolete, and what Treaties are to be continued. Then there is the whole of the Treaty of Commerce and Navigation, against which I should have thought there was no general objection to be raised. Under it, our nationals are to get most-favoured nation treatment, and so on. There is the fisheries question, a subject which had thwarted and puzzled Governments before the War, a source of great friction between the two countries, a source of danger to one of our great industries, and under the Treaty the settlement propounded was one which gave complete satisfaction to the fishing interest, and would have removed the dangers and uncertainties.

The Government, by their action, proposed to lose all the advantages of the Treaty, as well as the advantages which, we think, would have been conferred by the Loan. They say we should fall back on the normal intercourse which is to be obtained under the Agreement of 1921. Normal intercourse with Russia does not exist under the Settlement of 1921. The ordinary facilities for trading arrangements do not exist. The rights of our nationals are not defined. There are not consuls in different parts of the country, and, above all, the Agreement upon which the Government reply, and upon which, therefore, traders, if there is no other Treaty, would have to rely, is liable to be broken at short notice. The House will recollect how, in 1923, the Agreement very nearly did come to an end, and it was only, as most of us think, by the timely intervention of the right hon. Gentleman the present Prime Minister coming into power that the Agreement was not brought to an end then. How can it be said that normal relations or normal trade can be carried on with a country under conditions such as that?

So little is the position normal with Russia, that we shall be in an exceptionally bad position for trade and intercourse with Russia in a very short time unless we take oar. I take it that the view is not seriously accepted that Russian trade will not recover, or that it is immaterial to us when it does recover. The recovery of Russian trade is very perceptible already. The increase of our own trade with Russia is such that this year it will have very nearly doubled. It shows what is happening with us. You have only to look at the non-political columns in any political newspaper to see that large parts of the business world are hoping and believing in Russian recovery. I looked the other day at the "Statist." I think it was in the Industrial Supplement of the 8th November, that there were pages and pages of quite non-political matter showing how Russian trade was recover- ing, and how it was going to affect us if only we could get part of it. I need not go further than the Prime Minister himself, who said not long ago that in Russia we have one of the largest potential markets in the world. All the other nations of the world are thinking so, and while we have made these treaties with Russia, and are now going to drop them, the other principal nations of the world are making treaties of a like nature. I venture to say they are not likely to drop them.

Commercial treaties with Russia have already been signed by Sweden, Persia, China, and the Balkan States—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—I am taking the small ones first, and, after all, Sweden is not negligible. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen are aware that a year or two ago the Russian Government wished to get locomotives made in Great Britain. They came here, and they tried to get orders. They did not get them, because the locomotive firms, not having the Treaty [ Interruption ]. Whether they were wise or not, they did not get them, and what happened was that the Russian Government then went to Sweden and Germany, and last year got 900 locomotives delivered from Sweden and Germany. [An HON. MEMBER: "Were they paid for?"] There is no need for hon. Gentleman to laugh at Sweden, when Sweden already has taken from us work which might have been employing our unemployed. But I go on. Hon. Gentlemen opposite laugh at the Balkan States. I do not suppose they would laugh at Italy. Italy has now got a full trade agreement with Russia. [An HON. MEMBER: "She did not get a loan."] I do not want to make an unduly long speech, but, necessarily, if I am interrupted, I must be diverted.

Debate by interjections is quite impossible. Will hon. Members please restrain themselves?

Italy has now got a full trading agreement with Russia. The tariff arrangements and details are quite as full in that trading and commercial agreement as we might have had if the Treaties had been ratified. Germany is now in process of negotiation. German trade with Russia since the War is already larger than ours, and when the Germans have negotiated their new Treaty, and we have rejected ours, their position will be still better. France is also about to begin negotiations with Russia, So far as public announcements go, it appears that they are contemplating completing a Treaty for political and commercial purposes. Moreover, at the other end of the world another important nation, the industrial and commercial nation of Japan, has nearly come to an agreement with Russia. It is only some details in connection with the oilfields, coal supplies, etc., in Saghalien that is preventing the Treaty being realised, but it will be realised soon. This is the moment when we are going apparently to drop all attempts to share in the Russian recovery. It is perfectly easy to say that Russia has to come for certain things to Great Britain, but I do beg the House to remember this: I ask hon. Members to remember what the Communist system is. It is not a question of whether we approve of it or not; whether we are Socialists, Conservatives, or Liberals. The system of the Russians is that the foreign trade is carried on, or controlled by, the Government.

What does that mean? That means that the Government can in years to come very largely direct Russian trade. We could not do it, but the Russians can and will. Here you have the other great nations of the world coming to Russia and making settlements. Do you imagine that if they come to settlements with Russia, that if they make Treaties and ratify those Treaties, that Russia is going to take any trouble not to divert trade to them rather than to us? It is a very serious matter, even if you think that economically trade should flow in our direction.

I want to ask the Foreign Secretary what it is that he intends to do. He has scrapped the Treaties which were made. I hope he does not intend to say that Russian trade matters so little that he can neglect it. I do not suppose he does. I hope he does not intend to take the attitude that the propaganda of the Third International outweighs everything else. You cannot base a policy upon the revelation of spies; still less can you base a policy upon the revelation of spies if you will not have public inquiries into them! My best hope is that the Foreign Secretary will say that he has scrapped these Treaties because of the form of them, and because he thinks that he is a better negotiator than we have been. Perhaps he shrinks from being called a nursery diplomat by Mr. Asquith? Perhaps he feels that he can negotiate better? May I say this to the right hon. Gentleman, that although I am bound to say I think some of the things which were said about Russia, even by people in responsible positions on the other side, might well have led to a greater breach than there has already been between Russia and ourselves, as a matter of fact that is not the attitude that the Russian Government has taken up towards us. I am glad that the attitude of the Russian Government is not one of hostility at the present moment in spite of some provocation. The other day Mr. Rykoff, speaking on behalf of the Russian Government, commented on some of the speeches made during the Election by some of the leading Conservatives. He said: But, after all, peace can only be patchwork so long as Russia is left out of the comity of nations.

Mr. Chamberlain's Statement

I should like my first words to be of gratitude to the House for the indulgence they have shown me in permitting me to absent myself from the first days of the Session to carry out the mission with which His Majesty's Government charged me. In particular I would thank the Leaders of both Oppositions for the assurances they gave me that they would facilitate that mission. It was to me an immense pleasure to take part in the Council meeting of the League of Nations. I hope that without any vanity I may say that the fact that His Majesty's Government sent the principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the first meeting after their accession to power was acceptable to the Council itself, for I was able to tell the Council that if I had come at a moment, obviously of some inconvenience, it was with the goodwill of all parties of the House, and that, whatever our party differences might be, we were united in our respect and in our good wishes for the League. I cannot doubt that it is desirable that the House should facilitate my so doing in so far as other responsibilities make it possible, so that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs should be naturally and ordinarily the recognised representative of His Britannic Majesty's Government on the Council of the League.

When I bade adieu to my colleagues of that Council I wished them au revoir till the March meeting. I would appeal to the House, in the interests of the League and in the interests of our country, to continue to show to the Secretary of State for the time being the indulgence which they have already shown to me in order that they may thus be properly represented, and mark their proper respect for the League of Nations. Therefore, for my part I return from that meeting with a greater knowledge of the way the League works, and, in consequence of that greater knowledge, with a firmer assurance of its usefulness and of a greater confidence in its future. I think that sometimes some friends of the League put it in some peril by expecting of it in its early youth the performance of tasks that are better fitted to strong manhood, and that they are not the best councillors of the League who urge it to come forward rapidly without regard to its own strength. It is wiser to make a gradual progress, accepted by the world at large, inspiring confidence in the world, until some day the world at large wakes up, and finds that the League has grown into a more powerful instrument than any of us had known. That is the way that our own House of Commons has grown in its rights, in its privileges, and in its strength. It is in that slow growth, even unperceived, that the greatest strength and the longest duration can be predicted for any institution.

Conversations in Paris and Rome

As regards the converations which I was enabled to have, first with the President of the Council in France, later with the President of the Council of Ministers in Italy, and with hosts of other distinguished representatives of different States, I would repeat here what I said in my last words on leaving Italy, that these conversations were conducted in the true spirit of the League itself. There are some people who can never accept the truth if it be simple. In the expressive French phrase, they are always looking for noon at fourteen of the clock. They want to see into everything more than it contains, and if they are convinced that the exaggerations are not there, then they are inclined to fly to the opposite extreme and suppose that nothing useful whatever has been done. I deprecate both attitudes. I claim for this visit, in the first place, that it has been an immense advantage, in the responsibility which I now carry, to come into personal contact with the heads of those two Governments and with many of their colleagues.

In the second place, I claim that by these visits and these conversations I have established mutual relations of trust and confidence between the Ministers directly responsible for the foreign affairs of these three countries; and, I would add, and I say it with emphasis and without qualification, that in the conversations that I held, whether in Paris or in Rome, the object of the Ministers who met was to remove difficulties from their own paths, not to create difficulties for other people, to come to as close an agreement as they could, but never at the expense of those who were not there. Though confidential communications would lose their value, and, indeed, become impossible in future, if each party to them were to give a full account of all that took place, I believe that if a stenographer had been present at both conferences, and had reported them to the world, the world would have been reassured by the pacific attitude of the various Ministers who were engaged in those conversations.

It was possible for me to deal with some minor matters. I did not attempt to deal with the great issues which obviously confront us. I heard, and I was glad to hear, a great deal of the foreign point of view, not the French and Italian only, but different foreign points of view, about the Protocol. I was not in a position to express any opinion on behalf of His Majesty's Government, for it was the truth, the literal truth, that the first meeting among Ministers to open their consideration of that question took place—was it on the day of my departure, or the day after? I learned a great deal, but I could give no indication one way or the other, for rejection or acceptance, or amendment, or substitution of anything else, or of what might be the attitude of His Majesty's Government, when they had first carried their own inquiry to the point at which they could fruitfully enter into a discussion with the Dominions, and when the British Empire as a whole had taken the matter into consideration and reached its conclusions.

Neither did I discuss Inter-Allied Debts. I permitted myself a phrase in some conversation, one of several conversations, which I had with representatives of the Press abroad, not wholly at my own seeking. I permitted myself to recall a proverb, which I begged them not to mention lest it should create a slight coolness between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself; but as I have mentioned it to him to-day I may perhaps repeat it to the House. I said to those with whom I talked, "We have an English proverb, 'Why bark yourself when you keep a dog?'"; and that since we all had Finance Ministers we might perhaps dispense ourselves from entering into an elaborate consideration of all the technicalities of questions which would be better and more naturally handled by them.

I make no pretence that we decided a great deal. We did not seek to make any new treaty, to come to any fresh decisions. What we did seek, and what I think we achieved, was to eliminate some small matters which would have been points of friction if we had not come to an agreement to recognise the largeness of our common interests the world over and to resolve that, in so far as each of us individually was concerned, we would do our best to prevent such small differences as must arise from time to time, even among the best of friends, from separating us or impeding our co-operation in the greater common interests which are ours, and largely Europe's, and the world's as well.

That is all I think it is necessary for me to say about those conversations, all the more so as the Opposition take so little interest in them that they were proposing to move an Amendment which would have prevented me from saying even so much, if I had not intervened with a suggestion which was, I think, acceptable to and accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Oppotion, though deprecated by the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment.

I apologise to the House for interrupting. It is a very small point. What I wanted to say was that it was all arranged before the business started to-day.

If so, obviously the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment was wholly unaware of it. He and I were in the same position. We knew nothing about it; and he himself deprecated it, and did not quite understand why his leader had taken that course. Now I come to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made. One or two preliminary observations occur to me. In the first place, I want to know why the late Minister of Education was selected, in preference to the late Under-Secretary, the late Foreign Secretary, or others, to open this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. R. MacDonald) has been long enough a Member of the House of Commons, not to say leader of his party, to know that all he had got to do was to ask the late Minister of Education to raise his hat, and that then the right hon. Gentleman himself could have made a speech. But I quite understand that he wants to follow me, not to precede me, and I take it compliment. But why the Minister of Education in particular?

Egyptian Crisis

I have, as I said a moment ago, met and conversed with statesmen of many countries in the course of the last week or 10 days. But to hear the really anti-British declaration, I have to come to the British House of Commons. I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) goes to collect that world opinion which he professes to summarise in this House. My experience has been different. I have received many congratulations on the attitude which His Majesty's Government took up in regard to the Egyptian crisis. I know that that attitude was appreciated by no one more than the foreign communities in Egypt, for whose protection we are responsible, and I say we have reason to congratulate ourselves that our attitude has met, not merely with acquiescence, but with sympathy on the part of those whose good opinion we desire and we value. There is one other observation I would wish to make on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. He is very critcal about the policy of the present Government in relation to Egypt. The Labour Government, he said, would never have sent such a Note. The suggestion of any guilt on the part of the Egyptian Government was deplorable. We had tacked on to demands for satisfaction for murder a series of political demands wholly unrelated to the crime. I think I fairly summarise the nature of his criticism. Did the right hon. Gentleman give any attention to foreign affairs when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was Foreign Secretary? He must have been profoundly uncomfortable, if he did. He must have been on the point of resignation more than once. I am sure, indeed, that his resignation must have been often in the right hon. Gentleman's hand, and that nothing but the insistent entreaty of the late Prime Minister can have kept him in office, when a policy was being pursued which he felt reflected discredit on his country and held it up to the odium of the world. I suppose it was to compensate him for the painful silence of those days that he has been permitted to make his speech to-day.

5.0 P.M.

I am sorry to recall painful memories to the right hon. Gentleman, but I must make a quotation or two from the despatch of the late Prime Minister, my predecessor in the Foreign Office, which is the foundation of the whole policy of His Majesty's Government at this moment in Egypt. Let me say that I have never, even in the heat of the election, denied to the right hon. Gentleman the credit which is his due for some remarkable achievements as Foreign Secretary. I thought at the end in the Russian Treaty he went profoundly wrong, but—and he would like me to couple M. Herriot's name with his—they did great work for our two countries, for Europe and the world at the Conference in London, and I pay, willingly, my tribute to the value of that work. I pay also my tribute to the soundness of the line which he adopted even after his discussion with Zaghloul Pasha and the prophetic manner in which he examined the future. The right hon. Gentleman the late Minister for Education seems to think that this murder was one of those isolated efforts of fanaticism which no Government can control and which have no sequel and are complete in themselves, and for which amends must be made. If that had been all—that this murder, was deplorable as it was—and I may associate myself with everything the right hon. Gentleman said about Sir Lee Stack and his devotion to his duty, and to the people for whom he was responsible—if that had been all, the British Government would never have made on the Egyptian Government the demands which we did. But this murder was the sequel and culminating point in a long agitation fomented by Zaghloul Pasha and by those most intimately associated with him. The consequences of that agitation, the effect of that agitation were predicted.

The situation which I found on assuming office could not long have continued. There was complete disloyalty on the part of the Egyptian Government of the day to the conditions upon which independence had been granted to Egypt and to the conditions on which Egypt had been granted the Condominium with us in the Sudan. The murder made it necessary to act at once before it could precipitate a horrible tragedy. I would remind the House of what my predecessor wrote. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle said it was monstrous to suggest that the Egyptian Government had any responsibility for this murder. He says that if the Labour party had been in power the genius of the Labour party would have so handled this question that there would have been an agreement without an ultimatum. The genius of the Labour party, in the person of the right hon. Gentleman, the ex-Prime Minister, handled this question for weeks and for months and conversed with Zaghloul Pasha and found it impossible to come to any agreement. Is the genius of the Labour party in these matters so very different from the genius of any other Government? It is said that it takes two to make a quarrel. I am not sure of it, but it takes two to make a friendship, and when you have persistent illwill on the one side, let the other side do what it may, you cannot achieve it. What then? Having failed to achieve doing what the right hon. Gentleman said, he set forth the conditions which Zaghloul Pasha asked. He found them absolutely inacceptable. He went on and said as regards the Sudan—I beg to have the attention of the late Minister of Education—in the despatch to Lord Allenby—he drew attention to certain statements which His Excellency had made to the President of the Council of Ministers. On the 17th May, according to my information, Zaghloul Pasha stated the fact that a foreign officer (Sir Lee Stack) was Commander-in-Chief of the Egyptian Army, and the retention in that army of British officers was inconsistent with the dignity of independent Egypt. This official pronouncement of the responsible head of the Egyptian Government obviously placed not only Sir Lee Stack as Sirdar but all British officers attached to the Egyptian Army in a difficult position.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle has made it appear that loyalty to the Egyptian Government is something different from and inconsistent with loyalty to the existing administration of the Sudan. He is prepared to whitewash Zaghloul Pasha and the Egyptian Government, and to denounce His Majesty's Ministers for saying what my predecessor in office said. He goes on to refer to other statements. He said such statements must inevitably

"They have indeed made it appear that loyalty to the Egyptian Government is something different and inconsistent with loyalty to the existing administration of the Sudan. As the result, not only has there been an entire change in Anglo-Egyptian co-operation which has in the past prevailed in the Sudan, but also Egyptian subjects serving under the Sudan Government have been encouraged to regard themselves as propagandists of the Egyptian Government's view, with the result that, if persisted in in the absence of any agreement, it would render their presence in the Sudan under the existing regime a source of danger to public order."

I say I found that despatch when I entered office. The first telegram I sent to Lord Allenby was founded on that despatch, and the policy His Majesty's Government have pursued throughout the crisis was the policy for which that despatch prepared. Without desiring to place any responsibility for my action on the shoulders of my predecessor, I may say that I acknowledge gratefully the measure of support which he gave me in a public speech the other day when he himself dealt with this question. I make no complaint of criticism. That was the basis.

What then is our policy to Egypt and the Sudan? As to the result of this agitation, encouraged and fomented by the late Egyptian Government which the right hon. Gentleman denounced, the consequences of which he warned Zaghloul Pasha of a breakdown in negotiations, His Majesty's Government have direct responsibility to the people of the Sudan. We are there as trustees. It was owing to our action that that country was reconquered, after it had been lost to Egypt by the Mahdist revolt, following on 50 years of Egyptian misrule and oppression, and when we by agreement admitted Egypt to condominium, we at the same time told the Sudan that never again would they go back to the domination of Egypt. We are there as trustees, and we insist that we shall have there for the future whatever authority is necessary in order to discharge our duty and our responsibilities to the people whom we govern.

"(1) A British Protectorate over Egypt is terminated and Egypt is declared to be an independent sovereign State."

I omit Article 2 because it has only temporary application.

"Article 3. The following matters are absolutely reserved for the discretion of His Majesty's Government until such time as it may be possible by free discussion and friendly accommodation on both sides to conclude an agreement in regard thereto between His Majesty's Government and the Government of Egypt.

( a ) Security of the communications of the British Empire in Egypt"—

Vital to the very existence of the Empire, and watched with even greater jealousy by our Great Dominions than by ourselves!

"( b ) The defence of Egypt against all foreign aggression or interference direct or indirect.

( c ) Protection of foreign interests in Egypt and the protection of minorities. ( d ) The Sudan."

In communicating that Declaration to foreign Powers we made this additional statement:

"The termination of the British Protectorate over Egypt involves, however, no change in the status quo as regards the position of other Powers in Egypt itself."

The welfare and integrity of Egypt are necessary for the peace and safety of the British Empire, which will, therefore,

"In pursuance of this principle they will regard as an unfriendly act any attempt at interference in the affairs of Egypt by another Power, and they will consider any aggression against the territory of Egypt as an act to be repelled with all the means at their command."

These two documents are the charter of our position in Egypt to-day. They are the basis and the hope of the policy of His Majesty's Government. Our position is special, and a special position carries with it necessarily special obligations. Our interests are peculiar and vital. They are important to all the world, but vital to the interests of the British Empire. What is it, then, that we ask of the Egyptian Government? His Majesty's Government have no desire to interfere with the independence so recently granted to Egypt. What we require of the Egyptian Government is that they should work with us and not against us. What we ask of them is that they should discharge in Egypt the duties which are incumbent on any Government in its own territory, and for the performance of which we have made ourselves responsible, and that they should accept loyally and frankly, as the basis of their independence, the conditions which were attached to its grant in the Declaration which I have read. I draw a great distinction between what it is necessary for us to require in relation to the Sudan, where, as I said, our obligations are direct and immediate, and what it is desirable we should require in regard to Egypt. In the Sudan we must have power to fulfil our obligations. In Egypt all that we desire is that the Egyptian Government should do their duty, and if they are willing to do that they will find no better, no firmer, and no more loyal friends than the Government and the people of this country.

Let me say one word about the position of Egypt with regard to the League of Nations. My Noble Friend (Lord Cecil) has almost dispensed with my treating of that subject in a very admirable speech which he made a few nights ago, and no one will suspect my Noble Friend of being less than the warmest supporter of that League. There is at the present moment a Government in Egypt which is in friendly relation with His Majesty's Government, and I am hopeful, although we have not got to the end of all our discussions, that we shall arrange our affairs amicably with them, and to the satisfaction of both sides. There is therefore on the threshold no case to take up to the League of Nations at all, and there is nothing in the Covenant in any Article which either requires or suggests the interference of the League in such a matter as this. On the contrary, there is an Article in the Covenant which recognises just such special arrangements as exist between us and Egypt and excludes them from the general purview of the Covenant.

I repeat what I said at Question Time—Had any member of the Council on which I had the honour to sit, in any spare half-hour we had, if we had any spare half-hours, asked me if I could tell them what His Majesty's Government had done and why we had done it, I should have been very glad to comply with that request. No such question was raised. I should have thought it an impertinence to intrude our own business upon this international body already fully occupied. I repeat the observation I made earlier, though this time, having got further away from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, I repeat it in a milder form, and I say that to find anyone who criticises the action of this country I have to come to the right hon. Gentleman himself.

I would contend that is a matter which in its present stage could not possibly come before the League of Nations. I want to say one word more. I have seen suggestions in some quarters. I am not sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) did not himself make the suggestion the other day that we might seek a mandate from the League for the Sudan.

I am very glad to know that I was mistaken, and that it was not the right hon. Gentleman. Have those who made that suggestion considered what it involves? The moment we seek a mandate for the Sudan, there is an end of the Condominium. The policy of His Majesty's Government is to preserve the Condominium, to let it continue in the interest of this country and of Egypt, and we ask Egypt itself to accept, as the Government of Zaghloul Pasha would not accept, and which was the suggestion of my predecessor, the necessary conditions of a joint administration and a joint rule. That is practically all that I need to say about Egypt.

There is one subject to which I must make a passing reference and that is the demand put forward in regard to the Gezira irrigation scheme, a demand phrased in quite unlimited terms. Nobody but a fool ever supposed it could be the intention of any British Government to starve Egypt into submission by thirst. I need scarcely say that never entered the mind of Lord Allenby nor the minds of His Majesty's Ministers at home. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why did you use the phrase?"] May I beg hon. Members to consult with their Leader, my predecessor, and ask him whether the course of public events while he was Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary always left him as much time for consideration before he was obliged to take action as he would have desired, or if he always found the happiest phraseology when he was obliged to act in a great hurry. I think that if a little more time had been available we might from the first have defined more exactly what our position was. I have only to say now that, if we have a friendly Egyptian Government to deal with, who, on their side, are loyal to the conditions on which our co-operation is based, we shall invite them to join us in an inquiry as to what water is available for the Sudan after making full allowance for Egypt, and we shall propose to them that the Chairman of that Commission, on which Egypt and the Sudan are respectively represented, shall be drawn from an entirely neutral source.

Russia

I now turn to another subject which has been raised, and I find myself in a little difficulty. I had understood, from such sources of observation as were open to me in my foreign exile, that there was to be a great attack about the Zinovieff letter, but the right hon. Gentleman did not mention it.

That is exactly what I wanted to know. I am expected to speak immediately after the right hon. Gentleman, but is it the intention of the hon. Gentleman and his friends that I should exhaust my right of speech, and that then they should open their attack? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If that is to be a subject of debate, perhaps I had better say a word or two about it now. I hope the House will forgive me if there is in what I say repetition of what has already been said by the Prime Minister or by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Honestly, I have had very little time to read what was going on at home, either while I was abroad or in the few hours since I returned. The question of the authenticity of this letter was left—I make no criticism of it; I am speaking merely of facts on which there will be agreement on both sides—in a very unsatisfactory position when the late Government went out of Office. Before I go any further I will say two things. It is due to the right hon. Gentleman opposite that I should say them, and it is due to my friends that they should know that this is the opinion which I have formed, because I wish, if they speak about this, that they should he on firm ground, and that we should not in any point weaken our case owing to misapprehension of the facts. I say, in the first place, that, given the circumstances of the time, which were those of an election, there was, I think, no delay on the part of the right hon. Gentleman in dealing with the document which came before him. Nobody could doubt that.

The right hon. Gentleman will know that we waited in the expectation of an explanation being given in a speech on the Saturday afternoon. It never came. If any of us spoke on the Saturday, we, perhaps, held our hands a bit, but many of us had to speak again on the Monday, and still we were without explanation. Then, at any rate, the wiser of us inquired as to the time when it came into the right hon. Gentleman's hands and what had been done. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman knows that for what I have said I make no apology. If there is any point against me to be made fairly and honestly out of what I have said, let hon. Gentlemen make it. I am stating what I believe to be facts which ought to be within the knowledge of the House, and I say that, if we have a complaint, it is not of delay in handling the matter on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, having regard to the circumstances in which he was engaged at the moment. I say, in the second place, that I accept for myself, and I hope my Friends will accept, what I understand to be his view of the actual publication—that there was a misunderstanding between the officials and himself, unfortunate, but—

I hope the hon. and gallant Member will restrain himself. This is a matter which is really much more between the right hon. Gentleman and me than between the hon. and gallant Member and me, and in which, at any rate, my object is, before I go further on this question, to do full justice to the right hon. Gentleman, and to prevent controversy arising on a point on which I think it would be, not only grossly un just to individuals, but gravely injurious to the public service. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has never suggested, and I understand that he will at any moment be ready to deny, that there was ever any suspicion in his mind that any subordinate of his at the Foreign Office ever tried to do other than serve him with the loyalty and devotion that is the proud boast of our Civil Service—

It is sufficient for me that the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister says that he entirely accepts that statement of his position, and I say, on my part, that I in the same spirit accept his words when he says that there was misunderstanding and that he had not intended the letter to be published.

I have said that he had not sanctioned the publication of the letter.

I do not want the two things confused—the Zinovieff letter and the despatch to M. Rakovsky.

The right hon. Gentleman had not sanctioned the despatch to M. Rakovsky. I say that because I want to avoid controversy on matters on which there ought not to be any dispute, and it is well at the outset to state the facts. I have said that the matter of the actual Zinovieff letter was left in a very unsatisfactory condition. The late Government held an inquiry by a Cabinet Committee just before they left office, and they left office, the Committee having been unable to come to a decision as to whether the letter was in fact authentic or not. It was obviously our business to take up that inquiry, and His Majesty's present advisers appointed a committee consisting of the Lord Chancellor, the Secretary of State for India—who has also been Lord Chancellor—Lord Curzon, who has been Foreign Secretary, and Lord Cecil, with the present Foreign Secretary as Chairman, to take up the inquiry which our predecessors had left incomplete.

We had before us all the evidence which they had; we had before us supplementary evidence which was not available in time for the Committee of the previous Government, though it was received before the previous Government went out of office; and we had further evidence which was neither available to the late Committee nor in possession of the late Government. We saw every witness that we thought necessary; we had before us whatever documents and information we required. Obviously, there are, and there always will be, strict limits imposed upon any Minister who is speaking of information that comes under the head of Secret Service. It is of the essence of a Secret Service that it must be secret, and if you once begin disclosure it is perfectly obvious to me, as to hon. Gentlemen opposite, that there is no longer any Secret Service and that you must do without it. I must, therefore, be careful as to what I say, but I can say this: The letter was first received by the Government from one source. We know its whole course from its origin until it reached our hands. The next thing that happened was, that information was received by the Government of the existence of this letter from another source wholly independent of, and wholly unconnected with, the first source, and which did not know that we had had any prior indication that there was such a letter at all. The next stage was that from a third source, independent of both the others, not knowing either of the others and unknown to them, we got further evidence confirmatory of the authenticity of the document; and the last stage was that from a fourth source, independent of the three first, we got further confirmatory evidence.

I would add that the sources from which we obtained this information were not casual visitors to the Foreign Office who arrived with a document to sell, but were people who were known to us and whose trustworthiness we have been in a position to prove over a space of time longer or shorter in the different cases. It is suggested that the Foreign Office was hoaxed by some vulgar imposture such as have been fabricated in various parts of the world. The Foreign Office and our Secret Service have probably a closer knowledge of these manufactories and manufacturers of forgeries than even hon. Members opposite. We know them, and the fact that we know them is a guarantee that we are not taken in. The evidence presented to our Committee was conclusive in the mind of all of us, including one man who now holds the highest judicial office in the State and another who has held that office in past administrations. It left not a shade of a shadow of a doubt as to the authenticity of the document, and we accordingly despatched the Note which bore my signature. I am not going to argue this matter.

It is wholly immaterial whether the signature of McManus was put by him or not. I know that he was in Moscow at the time. I know that Zinovieff was there, although he pretends that he was not, because McManus says, "Is it likely he would have addressed a letter to me when I was at his hand in Moscow all the time?" Then you observe that Zinovieff was in Moscow and not in the Caucasus, and McManus is the witness to prove it. [ Interruption. ]

I am not going to argue the thing. The reasons which were adduced will not bear a moment's examination. That very acute-minded Gentleman the Noble Lord the late Secretary for Air on Saturday while the then Prime Minister was speaking in the country, found himself in a position somewhere in the country to declare, without any hesitation, that this was a forgery and that any fool could have seen at the first time that it was a forgery. Mark you, any fool except the Prime Minister, who, at any rate, thought it worth inquiring into. I think he gave a reason which was repeated by M. Rakovsky, when he undertook to denounce it as a forgery before he had had time to make any communication with Moscow He said: "It is obviously a forgery because the Communist International never describes itself as the Third Communist International. Here I have two papers, "Izvestia," a few days before the date of the Zinovieff letter—[An HON. MEMBER: "Manufactured where?"] This is manufactured in Russia. This is a Russian paper and there is not exactly that freedom of the Press in Russia which would lead us to imagine that what it prints is without some approval and some shadow of authority from the powers that be. There is one copy dated a few days before the letter and another dated five days after it, and both of them describe the Communist International as the Third Communist International [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it!"]

I do not know whether the hon. Member really wants me to read it or is merely anxious to interrupt the course of my argument. I am unable to read Russian. Therefore, if I had to read anything it must be read in the English translation. [An HON. MEMBER: "You do not know that that is not a forgery too!"] That, at any rate, is easily verified. Let the hon. Member communicate with his friends in Moscow.

If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for Govan must not remain standing.

On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that I have friends in Moscow. I have no friends in Moscow or in any other part of Russia, and I want him to withdraw that.

I am not anxious to court dissension on points of no consequence, but what am I to do? I have listened to 20 minutes of denunciation of His Majesty's Government because we have no friends in Moscow, and here I am called upon by the hon. Member to withdraw as an insult to him the suggestion that he has some. Upon my word, I am only anxious to plead and to be allowed to proceed on my own way, and if I can find a path of less resistance I will do it. Unless the hon. Member asks me, I will not read it. It is sufficient for my purpose to say that in these two papers, one dated a few days before the Zinovieff letter and the other a few days after, the Third Communist International appears in official documents of that body, published in "Izvestia," which is itself the official organ of the Central Executive Committee of the Soviet Union. I have now said all I think it within my duty as a responsible Minister to say about how that letter came to us and what evidence there was for it. Henceforth I shall take, as Secretary of State here, the same attitude which I believe the Secretary of State in Washington took when he published a document which he declared to be authentic, and when he was challenged, or its authenticity denied, in exactly this way by the Soviet authorities. I decline to discuss it any further. I state that the document is authentic, and I do not believe that any responsible person who had before him the evidence and the witnesses whom we had would not have come to the same conclusion.

Now a few words about the Treaty. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle said of course it was obvious that there could be no guaranteed loan after the General Election. I think that was obvious even before the General Election, and when the leader of the Opposition, at a time when he was still in a position to give his own attention to Russian affairs, told this House that there would be no question of a loan, and no question of a guarantee, he was better advised than the Under-Secretary when he allowed himself to be dictated to by the Gentlemen on the back benches. At any rate, we are all agreed—

Permit me to say what we are agreed about before you think it necessary to contradict. Let us get as far as we can.

There are some things about which we still have liberty of opinion, even in this House. We are all agreed that the project of guaranteeing the loan was as dead as mutton before this Government took office. Then the whole of the Third Treaty went with it. Are you quite certain that the other two Treaties would have stood with no loan in the background? In any case, what did you get by this boasted commercial Treaty? The right hon. Gentleman said, "Here is France going to make an agreement. Wait and see. Here is Italy, which has recognised Russia and made an agreement. I took a little trouble to inquire when I was in Italy whether they had found that their trade bounded up, and with the recognition of Russia had given them access to the vast markets of which the right hon. Gentleman talks. I have made inquiries in other quarters. I cannot find that this vast growth of trade follows on recognition. It did not follow on recognition in our case. I think the reason it does not is sufficiently plain. Trade depends upon credit, and in the absence of credit, on cash. Soviet resources in both respects are limited. There is more. No doubt there is some evidence that the Communist system is breaking down internally in Russia, that private enterprise is beginning again, and that private shops are being allowed to reopen. But an impenetrable facade of Communism is maintained on the frontier. If you want to do any trade with Soviet Russia, you can only do it with the Soviet Government, and as long as the only trade that is to be done in the world is the trade which Governments do, there will be very little trade done, whatever the country. Want of credit and administrative difficulties caused by the fact that Soviet Russia has created a system which will not fit into the system prevailing over the whole of the rest of the world. Therefore, it is quite absurd to suggest that in present circumstances there is this vast trade to be done. There is no reason why we should not do what trade we can. Under the existing Trade Agreement there is every facility for doing all the trade that you can have under the existing Soviet system.

The right hon. Gentleman thinks that our manufacturers in this country did not take an order for railways because we had not a Treaty, and that the Swedish contractors got the order because they had a Treaty. Our manufacturers are not such fools, and the Swedish Government at the time had no Treaty. I do not want to belittle the eventual possibilities of trade with Russia, but it is folly to imagine that we can get any serious results from our trade with Russia under present conditions. We imported in nine months of the current year, £13,000,000 worth of goods from Russia. How much were they in a position to buy from us in return? Our market is open, and there is no restriction on their purchases unless, indeed, it may be in the case of munitions of war. We exported to them of United Kingdom manufactures not £2,000,000 worth—£1,800,000 worth. We re-exported of goods imported from other countries a little under £6,000,000, but of actual British goods, the produce of our own workpeople and our own factories, we exported to Russia less than £2,000,000 worth. That is all that we have been able to sell to them in the course of nine months, when fraternity and good will—but for the hon. Gentleman in the corner seat of the back bench opposite I would have said friendship—regulated the relations between our two Governments.

I do not know whether it may be possible at some future date fruitfully to take up negotiations again with Soviet Russia. I do not think that the present time is opportune for that purpose, nor to preserve normal diplomatic relations with the Soviet Government. Normal relations with any Government require that that Government should observe the normal relations of friendly conduct existing between any two nations. [ Interruption. ] I am not making any excuse on one side or the other. It is obvious that each side must respect what I may call the courtesies and conventions of international life upon which friendly relations between Powers are based. I think it would be wise for us to hold our hands and wait and watch before deciding on any fresh action in either direction, or of any kind. I thank the House for the great patience with which they have listened to me. I am afraid that I have taken up a very great deal of their time, but I hope not wholly without acceptance.

I am perfectly certain that the House will sympathise with me in having to rise at this hour and follow my right hon. Friend after such a very wide field of excursion. I have no complaint to make; we expected it of him. It was his duty to roam over that field and to take the time that was necessary, but, obviously, anyone desiring to follow and either to thank him for the many things he has said or to controvert many other things that he has said, is absolutely impossible. I will only venture to deal with one or two of the more important points.

I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman associated us with his desire to go to Rome. I feel perfectly certain that whatever Government is in office in this House in our day and generation there will be no difference of opinion but that it should do everything it possibly can to maintain the authority, the dignity and the power of the League of Nations. I am also very glad that he has adopted the method of personal contact in diplomacy. I am sure that the days of drawn blinds and a withdrawn Foreign Office are dead and gone, and it is a very good thing too. The more the men who are responsible for foreign affairs in the various countries of Europe meet together, and after having met together speak to their respective publics about what was in their hearts and hopes, the better it will be for peace and prosperity all round.

The right hon. Gentleman seemed to twit us about our Amendment. I am sorry to say that, had we moved our Amendment straight away, I am not sure that we should have lost very much. We were full of expectation regarding what he was going to tell us about those very interesting interviews in Paris, in Rome with M. Mussolini, as well as at the Council of the League of Nations. But he has not done it. Are we going to assume that the only thing really that the Foreign Secretary, who has had these interesting experiences, and the important gentlemen he has met, discussed, not merely over the social table, were those delightfully pleasant things that gentlemen like himself and his companions can always do? Is he really going to tell us that beyond that nothing has happened that he can communicate to us? It is all very well to say that if a typist had been there to take every word that he said to them, or they said to him, it would be all right; but that is not enough. He must tell us more than that. I should like to know what he said about the Protocol. Was his observation limited to this, "I have nothing to say."

Nothing more than that? Then, arising out of that, do we understand that the Government are to make no communication in regard to the Protocol until they have agreed with the Dominions what their decision is going to be? Is the House of Commons going to have an opportunity of discussion before the Government meet the Dominions, so that we may know what the mind of the Government is in stating the case, either for or against, to the Dominions? It is of the utmost importance that when this country has to meet the Dominions upon a matter like the Protocol, the Government should not go to discuss it with the Dominions in accordance merely with its own mind. It ought to receive its instructions from the House of Commons, or, at any rate, it should give the House of Commons an opportunity of criticising what position it is going to take up. I hope that the Under-Secretary, in his reply, will tell us what is proposed regarding that.

The importance of the Protocol is this, that you cannot drop it and leave it there. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has already learned that the Protocol is part and parcel of a fabric of ideas in the minds particularly of France, of Belgium and Czechoslovakia. If he merely goes to them and says, "I regret that the British Government cannot sign," they will say, "What are you going to put in its place?" Therefore, if the Government is not prepared to sign the Protocol, with or without Amendments—there is no reason why there should not be Amendments—then at the same time that it announces that decision it must announce its positive position regarding France's demand for security, and the demand of the small nations for security.

The right hon. Gentleman told us that he said nothing about inter-Allied debts. I congratulate him on having such an easy task, if he found no importunate widows at his door demanding that he, as Foreign Secretary, should explain to them the position of his Government regarding inter-Allied debts. I never, in all my experience, had such a fortunate adventure as that. I do not know whether we are taking any credit that is not due to us, but I wonder if this is the result of the very stiff upper lip that I always showed to them when they asked me, when they appealed to me, to come and discuss debts. I think it is a very good thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the authority for that.

I should like to have some information regarding a point which did not emerge clearly from the debate the other night. Before leaving office, we arranged that a Committee of financial experts—Treasury experts, not outside financial experts—representing the Allies and ourselves should make a preliminary exploration of the problem. I believe the Committee had not met before we left office. We considered that that was essential if the subject was to be adequately discussed by the Chancellors of the Exchequer themselves when they met subsequently. Perhaps it will be possible to give us some idea how this problem is going to be dealt with. I do hope one thing, that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer goes to meet his foreign colleagues, he will go with his hands free, and not tied by any resolution or any expression of this House. It is absolutely essential that in the settlement of inter-Allied debts the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be trusted to meet the situation that he finds when he is face to face with the representatives of the Foreign Chancelleries. That is one of the things that must be clear in the minds of our Allies. I always found, when I began to tell them that we had to pay for that debt, that it seemed to be a revelation. They seem to be under the impression that when the £2,000,000,000, or thereabouts, were handed over to them, we took it from some disused gold stores lying in the cellars of the Bank of England, that it was an act of gracefulness that hardly even required acknowledgment, that we handed this accommodation over to them, and that it really was our duty now to cancel the debts, or practically cancel them. It is essential that members of every party, representative men of every party, should impress upon our Allies that because they are not paying their debts we ourselves have to levy unfair sums from our own taxpayers, and that the time has come to ease that burden, which it is impossible for us to carry further.

I wanted to ask another question. What about Cologne? Surely that was discussed? It was arranged that shortly before Christmas we should discuss that together—the Allies, those who had signed the Treaty of Versailles, should discuss the whole question together. Was that not discussed, at any rate in Paris, and if it was, what decision was come to? That is one of the most important decisions that can be come to by the Government. There is a great deal of misunderstanding about our position there, because it is certainly not clear that if we do come out of Cologne we must by that come out of the other two sectors that remain. It is a question of the interpretation of the Treaty, but in any event the first step to the withdrawal of the Armies of Occupation is that this country should make up its mind now as to what it is going to do with regard to the continued occupation of Cologne. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that Egypt was not mentioned.

It was not discussed. What I did say was, that it was not mentioned at the Council. I could not say that Egypt was never mentioned by anyone else, because I received some felicitations.

I was thinking of official conversations. I hardly think there were official felicitations. What I ask is this: Is there any new agreement, either settled or on foot, regarding the distribution of territory and territorial responsibility in North Africa? The events of the last two or three days make that important.

I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has put that question. I used words which were intended by me to show that that was not so, but I had better be perfectly explicit. I discussed nobody else's territories with anybody except the persons whose territory it was. I may put it in that way. I mentioned Jubaland, which was mentioned in the King's Speech, to Signor Mussolini, but we were not discussing methods of dealing with other people's property in the discussions, either at Paris or anywhere else.

My right hon. Friend knows that one of the troubles about some parts of those areas is, whose property, at any rate diplomatically, are they? Events reported in to-day's paper seem to indicate that our old arrangements about Morocco require to be implemented. In what way are they to be implemented? Were those questions discussed? It is exceedingly important, from the point of view of the development of European policy, that the House of Commons should be made aware of those things without delay. Now, Egypt. What can I say about Egypt? I was rather surprised that the Foreign Secretary, from this despatch of mine, Command Paper No. 2269, found a basis for his handling of the Egyptian situation. What he says is perfectly true. I do not understand sometimes why there should be any doubt about it. It is perfectly true that I gave Zaghloul Pasha quite clearly to understand that we would have to come to an agreement, that the bare assertion of his will against mine would not influence me by a veritable hair's breadth, and that if he wished to have an agreement between Egypt and ourselves he had to negotiate, and that it was not enough simply to say, "This is my will and this is the will of my friends, and I am going to tear up those four points; I am not going to observe them, and I am not going to observe the financial obligations that were imposed upon me." I told him perfectly plainly, "I am prepared to discuss them all, and fair play will be done from beginning to end, but I am not prepared and never will be prepared simply to receive an ultimatum from you." That was my frame of mind, and that is my frame of mind still. How can the right hon. Gentleman say that a dispatch, however firm, however unmistakable, drafted in that frame of mind as opposed to an ultimatum from the other side, was the basis of an ultimatum from our side? It is really impossible. Besides there are sentences, there are positions taken up that make it quite clear that I had no hope of getting any agreement or any settlement by the exercise of what power we could bring to bear upon the Egyptian Parliament or upon Egyptian Ministers. Here is a sentence:

"Though I have by no means abandoned hope that on further consideration the basis of an agreement acceptable to both countries can be found, the attitude adopted by Zaghlul Pasha has rendered such agreement impossible for the present."

But what does that indicate? It indicates that at the moment negotiations were at a deadlock. But I am perfectly certain they are going to be reopened. As a matter of fact, there was good evidence at the time that there would be a reopening very shortly of the negotiations, but for this unfortunate murder of Sir Lee Stack. Later there is another sentence:

"Such a security…."

that is for the canal—

"….must be a feature of any agreement come to between our two Governments, and I see no reason why accommodation is impossible, given good will,"

and so on. The whole spirit of that dispatch is, first of all, a clear and definite statement of our position, and, secondly, a declaration, an indication to Lord Allenby and also to the Government of Egypt, that in my opinion, whatever happened, the two Governments had to negotiate and had to agree, because without that there could be no settlement.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to quote one further statement in his dispatch, the third paragraph from the end?

"His Majesty's Government…."

he is talking of the Sudan—

"have no desire to disturb existing arrangements,"—

neither have we—

"but they must point out how intolerable is a status quo which enables both military and civil officers and officials to conspire against civil order, and unless the status quo is accepted and loyally worked until such time as a new arrangement may be reached, the Sudan Government would fail in its duty were it to allow such conditions to continue."

We did not think the Sudan Government ought to fail in its duty; and we took action accordingly.

That is perfectly right. The Sudan Government would have failed in its duty if it had allowed such conditions to continue. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the action that they would take was to be action directed against individuals who, whilst officials of the Government, were doing everything they could to hamper it in its administrative work. That is not merely a sentence in the air. It has to be read with the actual instructions that were given at the time as to how this was to be handled. I really do not think it is very profitable to go into details. I am not at all adverse to them, but the important thing is this, and it is the criticism I have always made—that there is a weakness in a too aggressive Note and a greater weakness in a too vindictive demeanour. I am very glad, for instance, to get the statement about water. Really, I defy any Egyptian who read that ultimatum to read into the expression about water the kind of thing that the right hon. Gentleman has disclosed to-day. The whole thing was unlimited. It was embedded in a document of firm, bristling aggression, and it is the one subject upon which, if we are not very careful, the Egyptian fellah will have his confidence forfeited with regard to us. There is this other point.

It is perfectly true that the Government have said again and again that they do not want to suppress or to substitute by British rule the independence of Egypt. It is not a question of going into Egypt with your minds made up that you are going to suppress a Government, a Parliament or a King. That is not how the independence of States is taken away. The independence of States is taken away when, by mistakes in handling the situation, one change follows another, until at last you are in the position that you have taken away the independence of the country. I am certain that the excellent officials whom we have in Egypt cannot have changed their minds. There is nothing that is dreaded more in Egypt by the people who understand the delicacies and difficulties of the Government, than the re-establishment of Cromerism, and there is nothing that we dread more than the first steps being taken, the second steps not being adequately foreseen, the third steps being shrouded in absolute darkness. The responsible officials, on whose shoulders the work rests, dread this method of diplomacy, which makes you take a step at a time, without seeing the second step. That is the danger which will beset our Egyptian policy. I am perfectly certain there is no desire, no design, no conception in the minds of His Majesty's Government to go into Egypt and suppress the whole thing—suppress civil liberty, suppress the Parliament and withdraw the declaration. No, I am perfectly certain that is not so and if any Egyptian harbours that view I think he is wrong. The danger is by following this policy, which has been modified in the very important practical point of the water, we will by imperceptible and inevitable stages find ourselves in the position of being compelled to govern Egypt in the same way as Lord Cromer. That is the first thing we have to avoid.

The second thing we have to avoid is leaning on an unpopular Government. I understand that a section of Ziwar's Cabinet has already resigned. That is a very bad beginning. Thank goodness there is quietness. Nobody but a criminal would desire to see any disturbance just now, but really we must not forget this point. Does His Majesty's Government propose to base its Egyptian policy upon the assent of a Government that cannot go to the free election of the people of Egypt? If that be so, I can assure them they are building a house upon sand, and a house which will not maintain its existence among the agitations that will steadily grow up against it. I quite understand that there is the League of Nations, but cannot we help the League of Nations and ourselves at the same time? When the late Government started its negotiations it wished to settle them itself. I certainly did. I felt we would get a better settlement by free friendly discussion, by both sides putting their cards on the table and not asking any outside arbitrator to come in and adjudicate between them. I felt that if a settlement were effected by direct action between Egypt and ourselves it would be far more an earnest of continuing friendship than any other arrangement. The murder of Sir Lee Stack changed the whole of that aspect and the whole of that prospect, but there is something else to which we have to look, and on this point I should like to support the right hon. Gentleman in what he said about the use of the League of Nations. I know there is no body in the whole world that less wants the responsibility of discussing Egypt than the League of Nations, but there is one provision to that, and I think that provision is very important. The League of Nations does not want Egypt, if the British Government is not willing that it should have Egypt, but if the League of Nations were asked to help the British Government to produce this Egyptian settlement which we all desire, then not only would the League of Nations readily take it, but it would be one of the most magnificent things to strengthen and dignify the League of Nations that has been done since the League was started. The whole question is, do we agree?

I will throw out a suggestion in this matter. There must be an election in Egypt, and after that election I suppose conversations will begin. Apart from courtesy, business has to be done, and I suppose after the election negotiations for a settlement will be started. Why not bring in a representative of the League of Nations to watch, to hear, to advise, to give us the benefit of experience in those negotiations? I believe that would be a very good half-way step. It would do us no harm, it would do Egypt no harm, and it would do an agree- ment a great deal of good. It would help the League of Nations, and I am quite certain it would raise us in the eyes of the world and give us a much more dignified position than that which we now occupy. We have a very good case to put up. I hope the Government is going to put up a good case for whatever it asks. The world should understand that case, and the best way of getting the world to understand that we are right in our case is that we should not settle it ourselves, but there should be some impartial authority which agrees that that is so, which takes the position that the settlement come to is a good settlement, and in that way removes us from what everybody must admit is a most invidious and unfortunate position, that of being judge, jury, counsel and policeman, all rolled into one in our own case. Moreover, we ought to welcome outside assistance. I should be perfectly willing myself to ask the League of Nations to settle it. But if the Government is not prepared to do that, I suggest that it might use the good offices of the League in some way or another, perhaps somewhat in the way I have suggested just now.

So far as Russia is concerned, the right hon. Gentleman started with a statement about the Zinovieff letter. He began by making two statements regarding my own position and for those, if he will accept my most profound thanks, I offer them to him now. My only regret is that it has been so long delayed. That is no fault of his at all—none whatever. He said, first of all, there was no delay in dealing with the matter. There are seats and seats and seats occupied by Conservatives because the public were given to understand that there was not only delay, but atrocious and insufferable delay in dealing with the matter. He said there was misunderstanding about the issue of the letter to M. Rakovsky. Well I have to put up with it, and although it is a little bit late and the fight is over, at any rate the political fight, I am very much obliged and I am very gratified that that should be stated publicly at last. I do say with him that for anyone to suggest that that misunderstanding was caused by anything which could be regarded by the hottest or the most prejudiced man as having been deliberately disloyal or even amounting to a shadow of disloyalty, it is unfair to a body of men with whom I have worked for eight or nine months, who are not only officials but friends, whom I hold in profound respect, and than whom, so far as loyalty is concerned, no chief could desire a finer body of supporters. My own position is: "Authenticity not proved." I gather from what the right hon. Gentleman said that whereas we had two sources which seemed to suggest authenticity, he had four. First he had the letter.

No, of course, I have not had the letter. The right hon. Gentleman himself knows that the original letter was not in the office and there would be no opportunity of seeing it after the Note which was sent, in his time, to the public.

I do not think it is quite so simple as all that. There must have been a letter if there was a copy of a letter, and the right hon. Gentleman has told us he has two other sources of information which we have not got. I may say I have not the least idea what they are. I do not know and I do not want to know. Unless a proper inquiry is going to be made, I wish to know nothing more about it beyond what I now know; but I wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman if, from either of these other two sources, there was any better chance of getting the letter.

What we have got is information that the letter was received and destroyed by the Communist party in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I should say by members of the Communist party. [ Interruption. ]

I think I had better deal with this observation. That evidence was never before us.

There the matter is. I am not convinced of the authenticity of the letter; I am not convinced that it was a forgery. How could I be? I never had a particle of evidence, one way or the other, presented to me before I came back from the Election. So far as I am concerned, unless there is going to be a proper inquiry, there it is. There is one thing which is really more important than some hon. Members opposite seemed to grasp the other day. It certainly weighs a great deal with me. How was it that a certain newspaper in this country got the letter at the same time as the Government and the Foreign Office got it? I am not at all sure—on this my mind is not clear—that the newspaper had not it before we had it. Of course the significance of that is twofold. If this letter was a forgery, the forgers took care that it did not get buried away in the Foreign Office. If they assumed that it would be buried away, they took care that there was a duplicate, and I understand that the copy which this newspaper got is precisely the same as the copy we got. If this was an exact replica of the copy which we got undoubtedly that increases one's suspicions. That is a new ground for suspicion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because it came from the same source. It is perfectly simple. Supposing, however, it was mot an exact duplicate, supposing it was on different paper, with different type, and so on, even then the fact that this newspaper got this letter before apparently it could have come to this country, if the dates are right, indicates again a suspicion—I do not put it higher—that the whole thing was very carefully managed—that a letter should go to the Foreign Office and also to a certain notorious British paper. One has to be very wary about this, and to put oneself as nearly as possible in the position of a judge and weigh the evidence. Therefore, when this also happened, that the newspaper that had the letter kept it back very cleverly until a period of the election when it could create a maximum psychological effect, without giving an opportunity for a rational dissipation of that psychological effect, my suspicions on its authenticity deepen. I am perfectly convinced from the reply that the right hon. Gentleman gave to-day that that letter did not come from the Foreign Office. That is absolutely accurate, but that throws all the more suspicion upon the outside origin of the whole thing.

Then, finally, do remember this, that if it falls to the lot of any hon. Member to have any authority at the Foreign Office and to look into the authenticity or otherwise of the origin of documents relating to the present Russian situation, the very first thing he will come across is an elaborate, an unbelievable, and, if I may use a word that I do not like—it is too strong, perhaps, for Parliamentary language—a hellish system of forgery, of lies, of corruption, of all manner of things. [ Interruption. ] There is a centre in London, one in Amsterdam, one in Warsaw; there is a centre in Reval, and so on, but there it is. Again, I think the best thing would be to have an inquiry into the matter, and I base my case for an inquiry far more upon the possession of the letter by that paper than on anything else. I ask for an inquiry not merely on account of the relations between this Government and Russia, but because I think every decent-minded Member of this House will agree that, supposing what is in my mind—and I confess it is in my mind—supposing that the suspicions that are in my mind of a deliberate, contemptible plot to deceive the public of the country during the election—supposing there is something in that, surely in the interests of British public life, that should be exposed.

So far as the Russian Treaties are concerned, I think the Government's action is absolutely deplorable. Here, again, let us have a common-sense, diplomatic point of view. We can say what we like about Russia, and much has been said, but with what result? The King's Speech says we are not going to interrupt normal relations with Russia. That is good, sound, common sense, but why cannot we, in the same good, sound, common-sense way, consider what the problem is that we have to solve in order to get Russia into the comity of nations? The commercial Treaty has good things in it, and the other Treaty, the political Treaty, has good things in it. Why do not they go and ask the Soviet Government whether or not they are going to negotiate it again? I do not know what the Soviet Government would do, but there are merits in those Treaties that a Government that saw its advantage in getting a good position in European diplomacy by handling the Russian situation and clearing up one or two things, including propaganda, would seek to secure. These things ought to have been seized upon by the new Government, and the best of opportunities given for coming to normal relations with Russia.

I will put it on a higher ground than that. I think it is a most objectionable thing for a new Government to come in and, finding an agreement like this, simply treat it as though the only thing to do with it was to tear it up. If precedents are set by Conservatives, who are supposed to care far more for them than we care for them, do remember that the days will come when those will be remembered. Supposing I had torn up the Treaty of Lausanne. I profoundly disagreed with certain of its clauses, and some of my hon. Friends put me through the mill once or twice about that. The trouble about that mill was that my own mind applauded what they said, and I accepted it, but because I did not believe it was sound public policy to scrap the whole thing, I did what I did do, but I am not at all sure now, with this example before us, whether I should feel the same obligation to continue that policy should I ever be put in the same position as I was in when I occupied those benches before.

That was an internal matter. We put it to the House of Commons; we asked the House of Commons to decide it, and while the agreement was being made we made it perfectly clear that it was a mere party agreement and not a general, national agreement.

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that both the other parties in the House begged him not to sign the Russian Treaty before the House of Commons discussed it, but he signed it, knowing that both the other parties were opposed to it, and he went to an election on it directly afterwards.

There is a certain amount of gross inaccuracy in that, and a certain amount of smaller inaccuracy as well, but it will be taken into account when we have to face the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has created by tearing up agreements without even considering them.

I invite the right hon. Gentleman, since he accuses me of gross inaccuracy, to say what he means.

One of the gross points of inaccuracy was that we went to the country because the two parties had united against the Russian Treaty.

I did not say it was because of that. I said that he went to the country shortly or immediately afterwards.

If I have said anything that is inaccurate, I withdraw it, but the final point is this: There is another new situation which I think the Government is missing altogether. The Dawes Report has changed the economic situation in Europe. Europe is now going to find its legs, and we are going to find ourselves in new relations. The territorial changes you had at Versailles were not merely territorial, they were economic, they were industrial changes, and here we are uncertain, with a very doubtful future ahead of us—not necessarily a doubtful future, but let me substitute the word, a troubled future, ahead. We shall be forced by industrial and economic causes to get new markets, to make new arrangements, and we must use our brains as nimbly and as actively as we can in order to get new channels for our trade. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Empire?"] Empire or no Empire, you have still the Continent of Europe, and whoever keeps their eyes on the Continent of Europe cannot overlook the possibilities of Russia. It is all very well to talk about Russian trade being only £2,000,000 during the last nine months. It is not going to remain at its 1913 figure. The enormous economic development of Russia, the mechanical development, must be remembered. They are there. They are partly to be seen, undeveloped, latent, and nobody who has got any sort of vision of how to keep this country in its position is going to go supinely by and say: "£2,000,000 in the last nine months; that is the first word, and that is the last word; I have nothing more to say."

If that does not expand, it is His Majesty's Government that is responsible for it. Nobody can be in contact with any of the leading men, either political or industrial, of the industrial Powers of Europe—you cannot spend an hour with them in an evening—without hearing them discussing the prospects and the possibilities of Russia. It is impossible, and I put it quite candidly to any hon. Members opposite who have those contacts, those industrial contacts, that you cannot spend now one evening, or an hour of an evening, with those who are responsible for the development of the in- dustries of their own country without finding them discussing Russia and the possibilities of Russian trade. What you are going to find is this, that while Foreign Offices may frown upon Russia, the counting houses are going to smile upon Russia, and I am bound to say that if I had been the happy man, the very proud man, of getting the British Government to have helped the counting houses to smile a bit better than they did, to have helped the British working man, who was out of work, to get into work by supplying the needs of Russia, if I had been that proud and happy man, I think I would have had ample justification for my happiness and my pride. For the moment that is done. Do let us be very careful lest, in our political passions, we allow other great European competitors to slip into the Russian market and close the door against us, not only this year but for ever. The responsibility resting upon the shoulders of a Government that does that will be very great, and it certainly rests very heavily upon the shoulders of this Government that, instead of negotiating again to try to save the good things in that Treaty, the things that are good things for them, they have simply treated the Agreement as though it did not incline them even to allow the House of Commons to pass its opinion and its decision upon it.

7.0 P.M.

I would crave the indulgence of the House when I rise to make my first address. I am glad to say that the subject with which I propose to deal is a subject that in my opinion should be and can be a non-controversial subject—the subject of Egypt. Before I embark upon it, there is one point in connection with the Zinovieff letter which I should like to raise, and that is that the authenticity of this document which has been so much discussed is in my opinion a matter of no importance whatever. When that publication in the Press took place, a few days before the General Election, it was not the Zinovieff letter which had the tremendous effect on the electorate; it was the Prime Minister's reply. The electorate thought and believed that that reply would not have been written had that letter been the only evidence in the hands of the Prime Minister to the effect that Bolshevist propaganda was taking place in this country. I do not believe that if to-morrow the Zinovieff letter were proved to be a complete and utter forgery, the Leader of the Opposition would come down to this House, and say he was now satisfied that no Bolshevist propaganda was taking place in the country at that time. The thing that decided the election was a final proof that Bolshevist propaganda was taking place, and that the British Government was aware of the fact. Whether that particular letter was false or authentic, the Prime Minister at the time was aware that that propaganda was taking place, and that decided him to draw up that strong and admirable Note which he wrote to the Russian Government, and which had, I frankly admit, a tremendous effect on the General Election. The authenticity of the various copies that reached the "Daily Mail" or the Government—what does it matter? Why should it be so significant that the two copies which reached the "Daily Mail" and the Government were identical? What does it mean? Nobody saw the original. We are now debating the Gracious Speech from the Throne. Has anybody seen the original of that Speech? Is it very significant that Members on this side and on that side have got only copies of that Speech, and that the copies are identical? A point which I should like to make with regard to the Zinovieff letter is that, whatever later development may show with regard to the origin of that letter, the real and genuine reason for the decision of the electors will remain unaffected.

I rise really to speak of the situation in Egypt, which I believe should be a non-controversial subject. The original intervention of Great Britain in Egypt was decided upon by a Liberal Government. The Protectorate over Egypt was declared, I think, by a Liberal Government. The Declaration of Independence was made by a Coalition Government, and therefore there is no reason why party passions should be aroused in discussing the situation in Egypt. No words that will fall from me will draw any sort of controversy from any side of the House. It has been suggested that the whole question should now be referred to the League of Nations. The suggestion had its origin, or its highest authority, when it was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It was repeated to-day by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan), and rather lukewarmly supported by the Leader of the Opposition. I believe that if that question were referred to the League of Nations, the decision of the League of Nations would be a great testimonial to this country. I believe we should receive much encouragement to go on as we have begun on the lines already laid down. The suggestion is an extremely tempting one from the point of view of this country. In spite of that, I think objections to such a course are insuperable. In the first place, supposing the decision I have indicated were the decision of the League, what would be gained? The status quo would be reaffirmed. We should merely have a better authority for doing what we are already doing. We should merely have a mandate for going on as we have begun. We should really have a pat on the back from the League of Nations. Other things being equal, that might be of some advantage, but there are disadvantages on the other hand which would entirely counteract and overweigh that slight advantage. There are disadvantages from the point of view of Egypt and Great Britain, and, above all, from the point of view of the League itself.

From the point of view of Egypt, what does it mean to refer a matter to the League of Nations? In point of fact, what are you going to refer and to whom are you going to refer it? Presumably you are going to refer the whole question of the future government of Egypt and its relations towards the British Empire to the League of Nations. Who will have to make this inquiry; who will be responsible for the great momentous decisions that will have to be taken? I imagine that it would be decided to set up a Commission of unprejudiced members of the League to make an inquiry into the whole matter, if such a thing exist as men who can take an unprejudiced view of any political question, which I am inclined to doubt. Still, an endeavour would be made to find it. When you have appointed this Commission of broad-minded, broad-browed, learned Scandinavian professors, what are you going to do? In the first place, they must be people surely who have had no previous experience of Egypt. Previous experience would mean previous prejudices. They must be learned in nearly everything in the world, but not in the wisdom of the Egyptians. You have to pitchfork this little company of learned gentlemen into that great vast country, and there they would have to divide. One would have to study agriculture, another irrigation, another would have to make his way to the Canal, another would have to study the position of the Europeans employed in the Civil Service of Egypt and the whole state of that Civil Service; the legal members would have to deal with the whole question of mixed Courts and capitulations, and meantime the more adventurous would have made their way up the Nile to study the situation in the Sudan and in the distant and far provinces of that country to find out exactly what were the wishes and desires of different tribes and inhabitants who live there. It would be some time before they all got safe home to Geneva. I sincerely hope that they would get home, and not fall victims to the mosquitoes, or the climate, or the wild animals which infest those regions. There would be further evidence to be examined, reports to be drawn up and collated, and finally they would make their report to the Supreme Council, and the end would not be yet. My argument is that it would cause tremendous delay. The Milner Mission, which was presided over by Lord Milner, who had a peculiar knowledge of Egypt, as had all his associates, who were people who had studied the question and lived in the country—the Milner Mission, from the time it was first mooted until it reported, took 18 months. I do not think it is unfair to say that the League of Nations Commission would take at least three years.

If there be one political state which is worse for any country, and especially for Egypt, than another, it is the state of uncertainty of not knowing what is going to happen, the sensation of being in the melting pot. Egypt has experienced it. It experienced it after the War. Everything went from bad to worse. This proposition would now plunge it once more into the melting pot, and prolong the state of uncertainty and unsettlement for years to come. Therefore from the point of view of Egypt I say it is bad policy. And from the point of view of Britain! Hardly three years ago we made a declaration of Egyptian independence. I would interpose here for a moment. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said that at that time we restored to Egypt her independence. We restored an independence which Egypt had not enjoyed since some time before Alexander the Great. There is an impression among some people who speak of Egypt that we have filched from her something which she possessed before we came. For 3,000 years Egypt has been the vassal of one Empire after another. It is not the least of our claims that, during our time in the occupation of Egypt, there has grown up in that country a demand for liberty, a sense of nationality which no other of her many conquerors has ever allowed to exist before. Though it has hindered us in our work, and we have continually come up against it, we have allowed it to increase, and those people who have been slaves for centuries have been allowed to assert their independence.

When we made that Declaration, we also, in no unmeasured and no doubtful terms, laid down the conditions on which we recognised her independence. We said no other country should have any hand in Egypt, and that we should regard as an unfriendly act any interference in that country. If within three years of the Declaration we go back so much upon it as not only to allow, but to invite, half the nations of the world to intervene in Egypt, will not word go forth throughout Egypt, throughout Africa, and throughout Asia that yet another proof has been given of the debility of the British Empire? I am almost persuaded that the League of Nations would decide in our favour. Even the League of Nations can make a mistake. Even Scandinavian professors are human, and therefore capable of error. As a matter of fact, in the most important territorial decision that the League has yet taken, it is the view of many people that they made the gravest error. Supposing the League decided that we should withdraw from Egypt immediately, and another country should take our place? It is possible, but improbable. I believe that this Government or any other Government, and if not the Government then the British people, would refuse to accept the ruling of the League, and that the British Empire would withdraw from the League, and that would be the end of the League for ever.

That brings me to the most important of all the objections from the point of view of the League of Nations itself. I believe in these days the League is in more danger from its friends than its enemies. It is in more danger from those who would lay on it burdens with which it is unequal to cope than from those who are unwilling to lay any burdens on it at all. I have indicated one danger from the point of view of the League. What is the precedent we set up if we refer question like Egypt to the League of Nations? What question could any country refuse to have submitted? How could France refuse to have the question of Morocco submitted? How could Italy refuse to have the question of Tripoli submitted? I submit that it is more important from the point of view of the League, if it is ever to be a real force in world politics, to get into it those countries which still stand out. Do you ever suppose the United States of America will join the League of Nations if they imagine one of the first questions which might be submitted to it is their own position in the Phillipines and in Cuba?

This is not a question for the League of Nations. It is a question that we have got to settle for ourselves, and, personally, I hope it will be settled upon the most liberal and most progressive lines. I have always been in favour of a policy of concession and conciliation. I had the privilege of taking part, or, at least, of being present in a very humble capacity, in the negotiations that took place with Adly Pasha three years ago, and I believe the Coalition Government might have made greater concessions than they were prepared to make, and come to a lasting agreement with that statesman, because he was a statesman. There is a phrase often used, which is, naturally, always dragged out when the relations with Egypt are discussed, a phrase for which I believe President Roosevelt was responsible, and which, I am afraid, is more popular with Members on these benches than on the benches opposite. It is the phrase, "Govern, or get out." I wish my friends to accept my assurance that, having for a long time very carefully studied the question of our position in Egypt, it is my conviction that that phrase represents the exact antithesis of what our policy with regard to Egypt should be.

It should be our policy in Egypt to allow those people to govern themselves, but to remain there in the background, as the predominant European Power, keeping an eye upon our Imperial communications. Our position in Egypt was described in analogy many years ago by Lord Palmerston. He said that a gentleman with an estate in the North of England and one in the South could not wish to own all the inns on the road—so it was unnecessary for us to own Egypt—but he said such a gentleman would insist, or desire, that those inns should be properly run, and should be able to furnish him with post-horses and mutton chops. That is still our position in Egypt, and that is why we cannot afford to allow any other Power to step in. Napoleon Buonaparte, at the beginning of his career, said, "If you wish to ruin England, you must make yourself master of Egypt," and, again, at St. Helena, he said, "Egypt is the most important country in the world," and he said that before the Suez Canal existed and increased the importance of Egypt by 100 per cent.

Therefore, it is folly to talk of getting out of Egypt, and I believe it is equally folly to talk of governing it. There are only two ways of governing a country in these days, or in any days—either by consent or by force. You are never going to get the consent of the Egyptian people to be governed by Great Britain. That is a sad and serious fact you have to face, and it is also impossible, in the year of grace in which we live, to continue to govern any country by force. You can subdue insurrection in Egypt with the greatest ease; a few machine-guns will suffice; but you cannot settle down to a policy of governing Egypt by machine-guns. I hope the present Government will realise that, and will not allow themselves to be frightened out of a policy of concession by one act of murder and of intimidation. And if you have got to make concessions, as I believe you have, it is always good policy to make them sooner, rather than later. I do not agree with the words that have fallen from the Leader of the Opposition in a speech—I do not think he repeated it to-day—he made it in his consituency, that the murder of the Sirdar should have been made the occasion to hold out the hand once more to Zaghloul Pasha, and try once more to come to an agreement with him.

I do not believe it for two reasons—because it would be a mistake to allow those people to imagine for a moment that they can gain anything by such a policy. They should rather realise that assassination and violence must put back for them the attainment of all they desire, must delay the day of independence. Secondly I regard Zaghloul Pasha as a deeply guilty man. Never was there a statesman in such a position for really effecting a final settlement between the two countries. He was at the head of a majority sufficient even to make the mouth of the present Prime Minister water. If you united the Conservatives and Labour parties in this House, it would represent something like the majority that Zaghloul Pasha had at his command, and even the remainder who were against him were, I regret to say, divided among themselves. He knew, or he had every reason to suppose, that the late Prime Minister and his Government were more likely to make concessions to him than any other British Government with which he was likely to deal. That was his chance, and that was the chance he threw away. He preferred, as other leaders of democratic parties preferred in the past, to put himself at the head of the extremist section of his own party, at the head of an agitation which he knew could lead to no good. And, in my opinion, when the unfortunate, bad young men who were responsible for the murder come to pay the extreme penalty of the law, as they undoubtedly will and should, there will be one more guilty man in Egypt, and that is the aged politician, with his tremendous experience, his tremendous majority, and his vast popularity, who could have done anything for his own country, but who preferred to encourage that violent agitation, and indirectly inspired the hand that held the revolver and threw the bomb.

The British Empire can have no more dealings with Zaghloul Pasha, but they have got to have more dealings with the Egyptian people, and I do hope those dealings will be undertaken in the spirit of conciliation and concession. Do not allow those people to imagine for a moment that we can be frightened by menaces into giving them anything, but let them realise that we are so strong that we will not be frightened out of giving them anything by one act, or many acts, of insurrection and insubordination. Let them realise that the British Empire can crush them with a little finger. But so far from desiring to do so, it is our earnest wish to see them prosperous, rich and independent, in association with this country, and enjoying from it all the benefits which must naturally accrue to it from association with so great an Empire. I believe if we are not niggardly in giving them proof of our sincerity, the time will come when we shall have in Egypt a real friend and true ally. And let us remember that in any war which may come along, there is one thing more important to us than an Egypt stocked with British troops, surrounded with British vessels, and the air so thick with aeroplanes as to put the whole Sahara Desert into the shade, and that is a friendly Egypt. I believe if we pursue the policy I have stated, we shall obtain that great end, and Egypt, eventually realising that we are its best friend, will look up to this country with sentiments of real affection—Great Britain the last of all her masters, who taught her liberty and gave her independence.

It is a great pleasure to me to congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper) upon a really brilliant and successful maiden speech, perfect, if I may say so, in form, and distinguished by a liberality and generosity of spirit, and by a width of outlook which the whole House has appreciated. It gives me more pleasure to extend these congratulations to the hon. Member since, in a previous stage of his existence, I had some small share in polishing his mind. I may in the next few minutes commit many indiscretions, but one indiscretion I shall not commit, and that is the indiscretion of entering into the Serbonian bog of the Zinovieff controversy. In listening to the clear, weighty and vivacious statement of the Foreign Secretary, I own that I was, like the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. B. MacDonald), a little disappointed that the Foreign Secretary was unable to give us a record of more business accomplished. I should like to have heard whether there was or was not any advance in the Moroccan question, and there were other questions with reference to which I had hoped to have some information. He has been in contact with three very remarkable and very sharply contrasted manifestations of the human spirit—Italian Fascism, the Papacy and the League of Nations, but I gather he has moved in an atmosphere of "Roses, roses all the way," and perhaps, therefore, there was the less time for the transaction of business.

May I, however, express my gratification that the Foreign Secretary should have attended so early in his Ministerial career a meeting of the Council of the League of Nations, and may I congratulate the Government upon having reached a decision to be represented in that body by the Chief Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs? I cannot help regretting the form which this Amendment has taken. It couples two branches of policy very distinct one from the other, having nothing, in fact, in common except their importance. In the one case it may be possible to approve of the Government policy, while it is impossible, or may be difficult, to extend the same measure of approval to the Government policy in the other. There is the, question of Russia, and the question of Egypt. In common with my friends on these benches, I have no reproach to level at His Majesty's Government for having declined to persevere in the Treaty with Russia to which their predecessors have committed themselves. I am not going into the moral credentials of the Federation of Soviet Republics. It is sufficient for me, and I think it is sufficient for the whole country, to congratulate ourselves that not a penny of the British taxpayers' money is to go to finance a Government which declines to recognise its responsibility in respect of past debts. We cannot, however, leave the matter exactly there. I was not altogether clear what the intentions of the Government were in respect to the Commercial Treaty which was signed in 1921, and under which a very appreciable amount of business has been done between this country and Russia. Is it the intention of the Government to persevere in that Treaty, or is it the intention of the Government to abandon it? I notice by the way, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) spoke as if no Treaty had ever been signed. He seemed to be under the impression when we abandoned the loan to Russia there was no Agreement with Russia under which business could be done. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that Great Britain was the first of the Great Powers in Europe to conclude a commercial arrangement with Russia. That arrangement was made in 1921. It would have been made in 1920 if Russia had withdrawn her troops from Poland. A considerable amount of business has been done under that Treaty. If I may press the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary I should be glad to know whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to maintain that Treaty?

That Trade Agreement remains in force. Unless my memory deceives me it was mentioned in the King's Speech. There is, I think, a phrase which I do not for the moment remember, in the King's Speech, as to the trading which is possible under present circumstances; that can be done under the Trade Agreement.

That is entirely satisfactory. Something fell from the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, which raised some little doubt in my mind and I wanted to have it perfectly clear. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) pointed out earlier in the Session that there were certain other questions in respect to which it would be desirable to obtain some concessions from Russia. There were, for instance, the rights of our fishermen plying their calling in Russian waters. There are the rights of our creditors who have been defrauded by the Russian Revolution. I hope the Government will not allow their aversion to the methods of ruling in Moscow to deter them from advancing British interests in these respects.

But the main intention with which I rose was not to deal with the Russian question so much as to say a few words in respect to Government policy in Egypt. Here, I think, my right hon. Friend deserves a great measure of sympathy from the House. Hardly had he entered upon the responsibilities of his office before he found himself confronted with a very grave crisis in Egypt. A great public servant had been murdered. The crime was clearly political. It was the climax of a long series of political crimes. It was clearly a case in which it was right for the Government to act firmly. It was the duty of the Government to show in unmistakable terms to the organisers of agitation in Cairo that there were limits to British patience, and to bring it home to the Egyptian Government that not only had they failed in one primary responsibility which rests upon all civilised Governments, the responsibility for keeping law and order, but also that the intemperate policy which had been pursued by Zaghloul Pasha had helped to create that atmosphere of fanaticism in which political crime flourishes and has its being.

I do not, therefore, complain of the Government having acted with decision. On the other hand, I cannot congratulate them on the terms of their ultimatum, and, indeed, the Foreign Secretary frankly admitted that in one important regard the ultimatum was unfortunate. I allude, of course, to the demand for the unlimited extension of the irrigation area in the Gezireh district of the Sudan. I do not pretend to offer to the House any observations as to the engineering merits of that proposal. I am quite ready to believe that this demand could be conceded without denying the Egyptian fellaheen a single pint of the water to which they are entitled. I do contend, however, that to put a demand of this kind into a document prescribing the atonement to be offered for a brutal political murder was a political error of the very gravest kind. I very much hope that the Foreign Secretary will lay papers from which we in the House will be able to derive a correct and full impression of Government action in this matter. After all, we have, as the hon. Member for Oldham has so well observed—we have to work with the Egyptian people. We cannot lightly forfeit their confidence or their trust. What could be more calculated to alienate the 12,000,000 small cultivators in Egypt than the suspicion that the British Government was prepared to use its commanding position in the Sudan, a position which gives it the key of life and death—prepared to use that commanding position in order to deny the peasantry of Egypt the water upon which depend their livelihood and their existence. I, therefore do hope, in justice to the Government and to the country, that the right hon. Gentleman will lay papers describing the full activities of the Government in this matter.

As the hon. Member for Oldham has pointed out very eloquently, the Egyptian question cannot be solved by force alone. Sooner or later we must make an agreement, and it has been suggested in more than one quarter that the agency of the League of Nations might be found useful towards the promotion of that end. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it would be quite absurd to ask the League of Nations to undertake a roving commission into the whole question of the political relations of England, Egypt, and the Sudan. The hon. Gentleman has blown that proposition sky-high. No sensible man would advise that. The object of the promoters of the League of Nations was not to redistribute the weights and measures of the world according to some ideal standard of political justice—if such a standard indeed could be found. It was not their object to decide whether either Moslems or British had any right to be in India, whether the French had any right to be in Brittany or in Algeria, whether the European immigrants into America had any right to settle in the country of the Iroquois. The object of the League of Nations is much more practical than that. The League was framed in order that the world might have an organ of conciliation between the members of the League which might be used on occasions of dispute, and which might interpose a conciliatory and dilatory procedure before recourse was made to force. Can we or can we not use the League? I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that there may be occasions—and he may find those occasions very soon—when recourse might be usefully made to the machinery of the League of Nations to decide certain problems arising out of the Egyptian question.

Let me indicate three of these problems—and there may be more! First, there is the problem of the compensation to be paid to Egypt in respect of her disbursements to the Sudan during the period of the Condominium. It will be within the recollection of the House that for several years Egypt not only made up the deficits in the Sudanese budgets, but she advanced very considerable sums towards railways and public works in the Sudan. What is the precise sum to which Egypt is entitled under these headings is a matter of difficult actuarial calculation, certain to give rise to dispute, and clearly a matter suitable for arbitration. Since the Egyptians have already expressed a desire generally to defer to the League there would be some advantage in referring these questions to the arbitration of the League. That is the kind of question—

I do not understand at all what the right hon. Gentleman is contemplating. Is it that the Condominium is to come to an end, and that thereupon compensation has to be paid to Egypt for expenditure incurred during the Condominium? If it is not that, what is exactly in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman?

I have in mind the ending of the Condominium. I hope very much it will be ended.

That, I think, is not likely if the Egyptian Government loyally works with us, for we have no desire to end it. At least that is our hope.

The right hon. Gentleman may succeed in obtaining that measure of goodwill. But I own that I am sceptical. It will require a very considerable measure of goodwill to work this Condominium. In that case this question of compensation will certainly arise, and it is one with respect to which the League of Nations could give an impartial and just decision. Then there is the question of the water. I welcomed the statement of my right hon. Friend that he was proposing to refer the administration of the waters of the Nile to a Commission with a neutral chairman. That, I think, was in accordance with the recommendations of the Milner Commission. I venture to hope the Council of the League of Nations may be asked to nominate that chairman, and, furthermore, that an annual report of the proceedings of the Nile Commission may be referred to the League of Nations. After all, it is a matter upon which it is desirable for this country, in its own interest, to carry the public opinion of the world with it. Our position in the Sudan is necessarily an invidious position, and it is not only desirable that we should be just, but it is also desirable that we should appear to all the world to be just, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he might very reasonably consent to issue to the League an annual report on the operations of the Commission on the Nile waters.

I am afraid I have not made myself clear. I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend so often. The Committee, or Commission, to which I referred is intended to make one report, and to make that report quickly. It is not a body which is to remain in perpetuity and make annual reports to anyone.

I think the Milner Commission recommended a permanent Commission, and I had understood the object of the right hon. Gentleman was to establish a permanent Commission for the administration of the Nile waters, but that appears not to be so. I hope a permanent Commission on the lines suggested by the Milner Report will be established. Then there is a third department of policy in which I think my right hon. Friend might find—I will not put it higher than that—the machinery of the League to be of use. I allude to the Capitulations. The Capitulations are the regulations, fiscal and judicial, which are designed to protect the foreign residents in Egypt from extortion and injustice. They have, in fact, constituted a financial and judicial Alsatia, fatal to all efficient government in that country. Let me quote the words of the Milner Commission with respect to these Capitulations: at Lausanne. Nothing would be more fatal than to abolish the Capitulations without replacing them with some arrangement devised to protect the interests of foreign traders and foreign residents in Egypt.

The abolition of the Capitulations is, however, a very difficult operation. There are, I believe, no less than 13 foreign Powers whose consent would have to be obtained. Then, obviously, it is by no means an easy operation to supply an effectual substitute for the Capitulations. The Milner Commission suggested the establishment of a Minister of Justice whose function it would be to intervene to shield foreign residents in Egypt from the operation of unjust laws and unjust taxes. Whatever may be the merits of that proposal, this at any rate is clear; the abolition of the Capitulations and their replacement by some better and more effectual machinery is not a national but an international matter, and therefore one very fit to be referred to an international tribunal. I do not know what views His Majesty's Government may entertain with respect to the abolition of the Capitulations, but here again I venture to suggest to the Foreign Secretary that the League of Nations might very properly be invited to draw up regulations for the foreign residents in Egypt, to be submitted, of course, to the Powers concerned, and among them, of course, to the Governments of Great Britain and Egypt. That, again, is a task which the League of Nations could perform without the exorbitant delays which the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Cooper) anticipates. I believe it is a task well within the measure of their competence, and that there will be every advantage in associating the League with a Measure destined to free the Egyptian Government from the clogs and impediments which now hinder its activities and hamper its efficiency.

One word about the situation at the moment. Ziwar Pasha has become Prime Minister of Egypt. I think he deserves to be congratulated on his courage in undertaking the government of his country at so difficult and dangerous a period, and I hope His Majesty's Government will give him every support, and that if he finds it necessary to ask for concessions to public opinion, very great care will be taken before those concessions are denied to him. No doubt he will find it difficult to reconcile his compatriots to the abandonment of their exorbitant pleas for unimpeded Egyptian control of the Sudan, which were nourished by Zaghloul Pasha. For myself, I cannot recognise any valid Egyptian title to the Sudan, founded on the conquests of an Albanian adventurer in search of ivory and slaves, and cemented by 60 years of hideous misgovernment. The Egyptians have shown themselves incompetent to rule the Sudan. They are disliked by the Sudanese population. I believe we have everything to gain, Britain, Egypt and the world at large, by making it clear henceforth that the Egyptians, except in the important respect of the administration of the Nile waters, have no part or lot in the administration of the Sudan.

It has been suggested that if the Condominium breaks down, as I think it will, the Sudan might be taken on a mandate from the League of Nations. Perhaps it would be better to consider that question when the Government have come to the conclusion that there is a breakdown of the Condominium. I do not know what views the Sudanese inhabitants would take with respect to a mandatory statue. They might regard it with as much aversion as do the Arabs in Bagdad. If so, that would be a strong argument against taking out a mandate for the Sudan. But whether a mandate for the Sudan is taken out or not, I submit that nothing would be lost and much might be gained by the submission of an annual report to the League of Nations upon the British administration in that part of the world. We have nothing to lose by publicity. I believe we should submit a full account of our stewardship in the Sudan to that great and influential body, and that by so doing we should only increase our prestige and reputation in the world.

The Amendment on the Paper invites us to dissent from both the Russian and the Egyptian policy of His Majesty's Government. So far as I am concerned, I cannot accept that position. I hold that in its broad outlines the policy in both those regions of the world, which has been depicted for us by the Foreign Secretary, is substantially right. I have offered some criticism, some comments and some suggestions, in the hope that something may, possibly, have fallen from my lips which will be helpful and not unhelpful to the right hon. Gentleman. But so far as I am concerned, I think the Government are right in breaking off the Russian loan, and I think they are right in the general view which they take with regard to the responsibility of Great Britain in Egypt, a responsibility which involves recognition, on the one hand, of Egyptian autonomy and Egyptian constitutional government, and, on the other hand, the importance of safeguarding our Imperial communications, protecting the foreign residents in Egypt, governing the Sudan, and protecting Egypt against foreign aggression.

Egypt and Russia

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words

I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper) who preceded the last speaker on one of the most brilliant maiden speeches I have heard in this House. I perhaps take a special interest in it, because the hon. Member, like me, began his career in the Foreign Office, and like me has come into the House of Commons. I hope to make the likeness more complete by being able to say that like me he will come over to the Labour party. Before I sit down I intend to move the Amendment which is on the Paper and which, had it not been for the statement of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, would have been moved at an earlier stage. But I should like, first of all, to draw the attention of the House to a very important statement made by the Foreign Secretary at Question Time to-day, as it may not have been noticed by hon. Members. The Foreign Secretary stated to-day that the arrangement, or rather the practice, we had laid down in April last year by which treaties should be laid on the Table of the House for twenty-one days, to give an opportunity for Debate before ratification, is a practice which this Government does not intend to continue. Therefore, we may be prepared for this Government to carry on secret agreements and treaties without the knowledge of this House. Considering the very thick smoke screen which the Foreign Secretary seemed to draw over his visit to Paris and Rome, we may perhaps learn in future years that agreements have been drawn up on these occasions without our knowledge and sanction. It is well this House should understand that that practice is now abandoned and the old era of secret treaties is to be gone back to again.

I want to say a few words about the Russian Treaty. I am specially interested in the Russian Treaty, because to a large extent I was responsible for the negotiations which were concluded with their signatures. In fact, I have been referred to as the villain of the piece. I am entirely unrepentant, because I believe those Treaties were the wisest and most sagacious course in the solution of the extremely complicated problems which would have been brought about had those Treaties been ratified. It has been said that these Treaties were rejected by the electors at the election. No such thing! What the electorate rejected, and very rightly, was presenting to Russia 30,000,000 golden sovereigns. There was a poster representing a Bolshevist with a pile of sovereigns. It had very great effect. This Government is far more closely associated with the Unionist headquarters that issued these posters and leaflets than the Soviet Government is associated with the Third International. They also very rightly rejected, more particularly the women, the nationalisation of women. Women voted against that to a man, but these leaflets were very valuable to hon. Gentleman opposite, particularly those with the marriage lines crossed out, and because of what I may term their flagrant indecency. I have not got a copy, because I am not a collector of pornographic literature. The Prime Minister, who objects so much to be reminded of these leaflets, was photographed in the Unionist headquarters with a bearded Bolshie behind him. I do not know whether he had any hand in designing that poster, but to come here and be very much offended when we remind hon. Members opposite of these things I think is really quite unheard of.

The Zinovieff letter has been discussed sufficiently, but it also had a very great effect, and the circumstances and the very extraordinary coincidences that have been referred to by the leader of the Opposition will give us food for reflection. It came at a very opportune moment. No day could have been chosen that was more opportune. The result of these leaflets, posters and letter is accountable for a large number of the Gentlemen opposite being in this House; but to say that means the condemnation of the Russian Treaty is really entirely beside the mark. I, for one, am glad to see in the King's Speech the paragraph referring to the Soviet Republic It is far more guarded in tone than the dispatches and letters that have been recently written to M. Rakovsky. It would tend to show that the Foreign Secretary is not going to ride quite such a high horse as he was riding on his advent to office. As regards the safeguarding the interest of the British traders, the right hon. Gentleman will find the Trade agreement does not suffice and cannot be continued, that it is of so slender a nature as not to bear the strain of trade that is developing between the two countries. Moreover, he will see that something more is necessary, not only in view of the expanding trade in Russia, but the probability that the Russian Government will accommodate itself more and more to Western methods of commerce. He will therefore send to those around him and say a commercial treaty must be drawn up. He will not call it the Treaty. He is frightened of the word now, but he will call it a commercial pact, but he will follow very closely the lines laid down in the commercial Treaty, with the Soviet Government. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman will adopt clause by clause our Treaty, and when he looks round further he will say there is no reason why we should not draw up a list of treaties—those which can be rejected, those which should remain, and those which should be revised. He will then say that a Fisheries agreement must be drawn up, and, although it will be impossibe to set up an international conference to settle the whole question of territorial waters, we must insist on a three-mile limit, and we must insist also on a line being drawn in the White Sea which will give 4,200 square miles extra fishing to English fishermen. He will then find he has drawn up a very satisfactory fisheries agreement. As to debts and claims, he will know it is perfectly absurd of him to demand from the Soviet Government the payment of the War Debt of £650,000,000. He will know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is dealing with the question of international debt, and he will say the War Debt is to be set aside, and likewise the interventionist claims of the Soviet Government. As to the bondholders' claims, amounting to £40,000,000, he will know that bondholders are people you cannot collect together, nor does anyone represent them all. The fair way will, therefore, be to get the sanction of 50 per cent. of them to an agreement which can be sanctioned by the Government. The property claims, amounting to £180,000,000, will then be gone into, and a commission set up to investigate them. The miscellaneous claims, amounting to £40,000,000, will also have to be investigated by commissions, and a lump sum agreed upon for distribution by H.M. Government. Having made his Commercial Agreement, and what I will call a general Convention in order to avoid the word "Treaty," the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs will then be asked to proceed to conduct negotiations with the Soviet Authority. Probably the right hon. Gentleman will hesitate, but he will be influenced by the excellence of the Agreement which the Foreign Secretary has sketched out, and he will proceed to make an Agreement. He will then come back and say, "I cannot do anything because the Soviet Government must be set on its legs, and this can only be done by granting a loan to Russia in some form or other." Little by little the right hon. Gentleman will find that money has to be provided from some source or other, and so long as he sees that that money is spent in this country in order to get orders for machinery, plant, and other things wanted toy the Russian people, and provided he gets proper security, he will find that such a loan is a necessity, and after calling it an assurance and avoiding the words Treaty, Loans or Guarantee, these two documents will inevitably be drawn up.

They will call them pacts and conventions, and the Government will probably sign them and ratify them without us knowing anything about them. We shall not be consulted, but I shall look in the newspapers when they are made public and follow them with very great interest having retained "for greater accuracy" a copy of the Labour Government's Treaty. I shall notice where the punctuation has been altered or the articles changed in their order, but I shall at least know that the lines we laid down have been followed, because I believe that there are no other lines to follow if you want to establish friendly relations with that great country. I believe they were right lines to go upon, and I believe all this prejudice engendered against them was initiated largely by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) who was then deputy vice-assistant leader of the Liberal party. I was informed that the right hon. Gentleman at that time had his pockets filled with notes ready to attack us for not having made an agreement with Russia, and then proceeded to attack us because we had. From the time I announced that Agreement in this House to the General Election it was my duty to look at the criticisms and to read the letters and articles written against the Treaty, and I have no hesitation in saying that, apart from a shameless prejudice against Bolshevism, there was very little in them, and the criticism was very much reduced as time went on. I have little doubt that with a few more weeks and a more propitious atmosphere those Treaties would have been ratified, and would now have been on a fair way to establishing amicable relations with the Russian Government.

There was one passage in the Foreign Secretary's speech which I must repudiate. He said that my right hon. Friend, when he was Prime Minister, announced in this House that there was to be no guaranteed loan to Russia. That is perfectly true, and in the course of the negotiations that position was altered. Negotiations are conducted in that way so that you may have an alteration from time to time in return for getting a very much better agreement which otherwise you could possibly have got. The Foreign Secretary said that this guarantee was put into the Treaty because of pressure from the Back Benches, but I am rather tired of hearing the argument of the Back Benches, because such pressure was simply non-existent. That guaranteed loan was settled between myself and the Prime Minister, it was sanctioned by the Cabinet, and it was introduced by me into the negotiations without anybody else having heard of it. Under these circumstances, I hope the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will call the attention of the Foreign Secretary to my disclaimer, because I am sure the right hon. Gentleman opposite does not want to be unfair in that respect. At no stage of the proceedings was there any Back Bench pressure, and it was merely a matter when negotiations broke down of one or two hon. Members asking M. Rakovsky to come and see me again.

The hon. Member who interrupts me is no doubt emphatic that we should have no truck with bloody murderers, and that is an expression of which we have heard a great deal. I admit that in this respect the figures which I have before me have given me a great deal of food for reflection. During three years 180,000 people were in prisons the holding capacity of which was about 107,000. We hear of 205 prisoners being kept in a prison constructed to hold 50, and we are told there were 1,200 prisoners in a prison with accommodation for only 300. We hear of torture in many cases and of suicides in prison. The figures state that 2,118 persons were executed after sentence and 1,321 were executed without sentence at all, and that 74,000 people have been exiled. I say that those figures are appalling, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman who interrupted me would agree that they are.

Well, those figures that I was quoting are the figures for 1905 to 1908, and I do not remember hearing talk of the bloody Russians then. Anybody who talked in that way was out of order in so talking of a friendly Power. In the same way, I have a great regret because of the opportunity that has been missed to help unemployment, because of the opportunity which, to my mind, is the most important of all, of bringing together the nations of Europe and the nations of the world as a whole, and of continuing the policy inaugurated by my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister. You cannot do that if you talk of the Russians as you are talking of them to-day; you cannot do that if you exclude the Russians from the comity of nations; you cannot do that if you give Russia the cold shoulder, continue to insult her, and refuse to trade with her. I hope, if the passage in the King's Speech means anything, that the Foreign Secretary is going to have the wisdom to see in time that he must draw up an agreement, that he must come to terms; and, until we have that declaration in the House, I think we are justified, both on this subject and on the subject of Egypt, in showing in the most emphatic way our disapproval of the new methods adopted by the present Government.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I have the honour to represent a constituency which has a very special interest in the policy of the Government in relation to Russia. Before the War the Russian market absorbed a very large proportion of our manufactures of agricultural machinery, and, although the sale of those goods was financed by a system of long-term credits, extending, before final payment was made, over as long as two, three, and even four years, the percentage of losses was unusually small, and those who are responsible for the management and direction of the great agricultural engineering factories situated in Lincoln have the very highest opinion of the inherent honesty of the Russian peasant.

Following the collapse of the most corrupt, brutal, and inefficient tyranny in Europe in 1917, and the emergence from the existing chaos of the Bolshevik dictatorship, firms in the City of Lincoln, as a result of that, lost no less than a million sterling. The announcement that the Government had decided not to permit Parliament to consider the provisions of the Russian Treaties was very strongly resented by many thousands of my constituents. In the provisions of the Treaties negotiated by the previous Government were clauses which provided for a recognition of the claims of thousands of small investors who had lost their savings in Russia, and this, I believe, is the first time that the Russian Government has recognised these claims in a definite way. I cannot escape the conclusion that the Government dare not submit these Treaties to the searchlight of Parliamentary examination, lest the people should discover that the extravagances of Tory newspapers and Tory Cabinets during the election campaign were thoroughly unjustified by an impartial and careful consideration of the actual provisions of the Treaties.

Although I recognise that many of the difficulties in connection with the recovery of our export trade with Russia in agricultural machinery do not arise from the stupidity and wickedness of British politicians, nevertheless, there is not the slightest doubt that the unsettlement and chaos in Russia, with its consequent unemployment in Lincoln, was prolonged for a very much longer period than would otherwise have been the case as a result of the policy of intervention in Russian affairs that was pursued by the Coalition Government, and pursued both vigorously and expensively by the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Conservative party, as the dominant partner in the Coalition, cannot escape their share of responsibility for that policy. The folly of that policy is now clear. Whatever the material burdens it may have placed upon the taxpayers of this country—and they are not inconsiderable—they are as nothing compared with the suffering and misery that they have brought to thousands of working-class homes in the City of Lincoln. For years thousands of skilled artisans and their dependants have been suffering from unemployment, and I know of nothing more tragic than the condition of the homes of many of my personal friends, skilled artisans, who had never been out of work a day before in their lives, who have been cleaned out of their lifetime's savings by a very effective Capital Levy during the last few years and have been driven in their thousands to the Poor Law as the only means of maintaining a standard of life that can only be described as one of semistarvation. These men, many of them middle-aged, have lost all hope of regaining their places in industry unless there is a very speedy trade revival. Young men and youths for whom no opening occurs in industry, young men who have served part or the whole of their apprenticeship, are year after year enduring enforced idleness. These are conditions to which the policy of the Gentlemen who occupy the benches opposite has contributed a very great deal, and it is for the sake of these men, and not for the sake of Russia, that I plead for the adoption of a more sympathetic attitude in regard to Russia.

I see no hope of recovery of industrial prosperity in a community so dependent upon Russian trade unless the power of the State is used to help the manufacturers of our city to repair the broken chain of the exports to Russia. I am reinforced in a personal plea for a more sympathetic attitude towards Russia by the managing director of the largest industrial undertaking in the City of Lincoln and the largest combine of agricultural machinery makers in this country, who rather more than a year ago, when asked what the Government could do to promote the development of trade with Russia, said, "Let the Foreign Office adopt a more sympathetic attitude." I have recently had access to up-to-date and first-hand information of an entirely non-political character, information acquired by residents in Russia, who have been there for purely commercial purposes and in order to promote the interests of British trade. My information is that there is no possible alternative form of Government and that the existing form of administration is firmly established. I am informed that there is an urgent and extensive need for British manufacturers' products throughout Russia, and especially a need for the type of products which my constituency can manufacture as well and better than most other centres in this country.

The difficulty is that, whilst this extensive demand exists, the large trusts which are operating in Russia and in this country under the control of the Russian Government will not consider anything but credit terms in respect of purchases of agricultural machinery. I am informed by the management of our local industries that by extended terms of payment for a period of 12 months or two years it would be possible to secure orders to a considerable extent, but with orders on cash on delivery terms there is little or no business to be done. The real difficulty under existing conditions is that there are no reliable guarantees to meet that need for extended credits. As a matter of fact, during the last two years firms in the City of Lincoln have done a very considerable business with Russia and are very anxious to do more, because the present Russian Government have never failed to meet any of the obligations it has contracted with us.

I regret very much the fact that the Government have not given Parliament an opportunity of discussing the Russian Treaties in detail. It seems quite clear to me that under the terms of those Treaties the House of Commons could determine exactly what the terms and conditions of the loan should be. It could have secured control over the distribution of these orders in areas suffering from abnormal unemployment, and could generally, by that method, have dealt with the problem of enabling us to recover our export trade in machinery to Russia with a well-thought-out, ordered plan as part of the general treatment of the problem of unemployment. But this method of promoting the recovery of our trade with Russia is not the only method. There are others, and, as one who believes in the next best thing if we cannot get exactly what we want, I hope the Government will consider the advisability of immediately extending the export credits scheme to Russia, which, I believe, could be done without any additional legislation.

The export credits scheme has not been a very magnificent success. On the whole it has contributed but little to the development of foreign trade, and the manufacturers of the city I represent complain, I think with reason, that the conditions and regulations governing the granting of credits is altogether too complicated and full of red tape, and they ask that this scheme might be improved, so far as its efficiency is concerned, by abolishing altogether the necessity for the deposit of security by the foreign importer and making the bargain one between the State and the English manufacturer or exporter and solely upon the financial position and standing of a British individual or firm. They are prepared to use their credit resources to the utmost extent in order to promote the recovery of their Russian trade, but they feel that if this export credits scheme could be extended to Russia, they would be able to develop their business there.

All the information that can be gathered relative to conditions in Russia that is of a reliable and non-partisan nature goes to show that during the last two years there has been a steady improvement in economic conditions and that the country is gradually improving. I cannot understand why it is that the provisions of the export credits scheme can be extended to countries like Mexico, which is a by-word for political unsettlement, why they can be extended to countries like Rumania, where they have expropriated their landlords and have shown no particular tenderness for foreign investors in their loans, and why the powers of the Trade Facilities Act can be used to finance undertakings for the Lithuanian Government to the extent of £1,000,000 for the purchase of grain elevators and the laying of railways, and yet denied to Russia. Why should exporters in this country, engaged in this very difficult business of trying to restore the prosperity of an industry whose Russian market the War has almost destroyed, be treated worse than exporters to countries similar to those I have mentioned? I should like to ask the Government whether, in view of the difficulties facing those who are trying to restore British prosperity in Russia, they will look sympathetically and favourably upon a proposal to establish an Anglo-Russian company to work under the provisions of the Trade Facilities Act with a view to developing and financing long-term credits in Russia.

There is another thing to which I wish to draw the attention of the Government. One of the immediate practical difficulties in the development of our trade with Russia is that when the representatives of our industries have found a customer, and made a sale, owing to the system of trading which has been developed by the Bolshevist Government, it is impossible in many cases to get the necessary import licence to enable you to get your goods into the country, and they have recently spent a considerable sum of money in an attempt to open out certain markets and to get new types of machinery there which, if we could get them going, would probably lead to a continued and developing market. If the Government can help to secure easier provisions for the granting of these import licences, they will confer a very great benefit upon the traders of our city. There is a statement of the present Prime Minister, which was made at Newcastle on 2nd October last, which is causing very considerable anxiety to those of us who view the problem of restoring Great Britain's prosperity as a problem of restoring world markets. Those of us who believe that all-round prosperity is impossible until the total purchasing power of the world is effective look with very great anxiety upon the statement made by the Prime Minister on 2nd October. If the right hon. Gentleman is correctly reported, he said:

What is the position in the self-governing Dominions and in other parts of the Empire? You can go right through them, and you will find that, in spite of the credit facilities, in spite of the efforts that have been made, and in spite of the talk about improving and developing our trade with the Colonies, all of them have a very long way to go before they take their pre-war percentage of imported agricultural machinery. That statement applies also to machinery as a whole. Is it not the fact that the Colonies are suffering from lack of purchasing power because Russia and large areas in Central Europe are no longer effective buyers in the world markets for the commodities that the Colonies produce and hope to sell? That seems to me to be the problem. I for one am more concerned about the problem of trade and wages for the population of this country who need them being met than I am about the particular methods adopted to meet it.

If the Conservative party or any other party in this House can show methods which will enable us to meet that problem, if they can show us methods for developing Colonial trade without causing a restriction of trade elsewhere, and which will provide employment for our people, I will support them. I am one of those who believes that he has been sent hers to represent the thousands of working-class people who are in revolt against the existing social conditions, and who are not prepared quietly to tolerate conditions which force them down year by year and prevent them even from exercising the right to work. Those people are in earnest, and to carry out the mandate which they have given to me I ought to be prepared, and I am prepared, to support any proposal from any party which will solve their problem. As far as I can see, the House of Commons is not to-day the real ruler of British civilisation. Behind this Assembly are the great money barons who have been produced by nineteenth century industrialism.

I am unwilling to interrupt the hon. Member's maiden speech, but he is going rather far from either Russia or Egypt.

I was about to develop the point that those forces outside the House of Commons that have so great a control over the lives of the people, through their control of credit were, in my judgment, hostile to the development of trade with Russia, not because there was not the opportunity of profitable enterprise but because the Russian Government would not agree to surrender their right to determine the destiny of the Russian people for themselves, and were not prepared to give foreign capitalists the right of unrestricted exploitation in that country. I thank hon. Members for the patience with which they have listened to me, and I hope to contribute my share to the work of the House.

Before I address the House on the Amendment, may I congratulate the hon. Member (Mr. Taylor) who has just sat down on the trying and difficult experience through which he has gone with ease and assurance. While not sharing his views, I congratulate him, and I hope that on future occasions he will have opportunities in fields rather less arid than those of hard economics. I would dearly have loved to reply to the hon. Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Mr. Ponsonby) in regard to the Russian situation, but that can be left to others. I propose to deal with the Amendment in so far as it concerns Egypt. The right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate (Mr. Trevelyan) assumed that it was merely the murder of Sir Lee Stack that called for the condemnation and the ultimatum that was addressed to the Egyptian Government. I do not know whether that was really in his mind. If so, I should feel exactly like a man whose wife told him that, thanks to the operations of the Labour Government, prices were down. He replied, "That is splendid. Let us go to the pictures to-morrow night because we shall have some more money to spend." The wife's answer was, "Oh! come out of the chloroform, George." I suggest to hon. Members opposite that they should come out of the chloroform.

For years past, since long before the War, when Boutros Pasha Ghali was murdered, there has been a terrorist gang working in Egypt. It was encouraged by not being discouraged. During the War it did not appear. It reappeared in 1919, and we had the massacres and riots in Alexandria. In these riots alien intervention played a very large part. I have here Command Paper No. 1527, of May, 1921. In it will be found copy of an inflammatory leaflet issued to the mob in Alexandria before the people were killed. The printer's imprint on that leaflet is "Leipsic." The other day in Khartum further leaflets were distributed amongst the soldiers of the 11th Battalion of Sudanese, who revolted. I have no authority for making this statement except that of the Press; I have seen it reported in a paper usually credible, the "Times," that these leaflets were printed in Stockholm by alien agencies again. That is the way in which the Egyptian situation has been made steadily worse and worse. It is no new thing. In 1905 was there no incitement in Cairo against English rule? Of course, there was. If you take the works of men like Sir Alfred Milner, as he then was, his great book "England in Egypt" you will see that there has been constant incitement against the protecting hand of Great Britain.

9.0 P.M.

I come to the remarks made to-day by the Leader of the Labour party, the late Foreign Secretary. He made one statement which I hope he will profoundly regret on mature consideration. He alluded to Cromerism. Take the history of Egypt from 1879, when the dual control of Sir Evelyn Baring, as he then was, and M. de Blignières was set up. In 1880 Sir Evelyn Baring left for India, and was made Financial Member of the Council of India, and he did not return until late in 1883. The whole of Lord Cromer's life was devoted earnestly and zealously to the interests of the Egyptians and of the Egyptians alone, in an endeavour to fit them for self-government in the eventuality of it being granted to them. I wish hon. Members opposite would read the book I have mentioned. As far back as 1887 Lord Cromer made definite approaches to the Turks to see whether within a definite term of years it would not be possible to evacuate Egypt. Advocates of Egyptian nationalism suggest that that treaty did not come to pass owing to the malevolence of England. Nothing of the sort. At that time we were not on friendly terms with either the French or the Russians, and the French advisers made the Sultan of Turkey panicky and the treaty was not signed. But all through his career Lord Cromer steadily and devotedly served the Egyptian people, and all that they did for him was to attempt to sap his reputation and do him injury. When the late Prime Minister talks about the principle of Cromerism, he shows his utter ignorance of the subject. Lord Cromer was a great and honest Englishman who served his fellow-men and the Empire, and, above all, served the Egyptians. We have had enough of these idle and vain taunts on great and gallant men.

The trouble which we have facing us is-this: We are at the parting of the ways. I have stated that the murder of Sir Lee Stack was not an isolated incident. It was not. There were many murders. There was the murder of Boutros Ghali, and murder succeeded murder. English influence and prestige, mention of which causes a right hon. Gentleman opposite to smile, has been held up to mockery. If he inquired he would find that though prestige may count for little with the Labour party, yet in the Eastern countries, and in the Near East particularly, without prestige you can go nowhere and you can do nothing. In Egypt the prestige of Great Britain was flouted; its representatives were insulted. Not so many years ago various conspirators, who were members of what was then called the vengeance gang—it has changed its name repeatedly—were laid by the heels. Some were sentenced to death, but most of the sentences were commuted to long terms of imprisonment. When Zaghloul Pasha gained office and power these people were released and were put in the places of those men who had been the friends of England in difficult times. What have we done for these people? There is many an Egyptian native, a loyal friend of England, who has had the thinnest of thin times. At present there appears to be serious difficulty in laying by the heels those responsible for the murder of Sir Lee Stack. Is it surprising? Those witnesses who gave evidence in former cases of murder disappeard in many instances, and were done to death.

The Egyptian, who is not a man of high physical courage, does not want to go the same way as his predecessor. In Egypt, England now holds even less executive power than she did previously, and, be it remembered, the position of the Englishman in Egypt has always been of an advisory and not an executive character. The Egyptian felt that he was being advised and, in a sense, being deprived of responsibility, and there were difficulties and misunderstandings. I have heard a story of the old days concerning a Department or Ministry in Cairo. The Minister in charge was obstructing the appointment of an English official, and tried to use the Khedive as a stalking horse. At last the English representative sent a message to him, through a third party, saying that the English Government would have to insist on the official being appointed. The messenger expected that there would be a terrible explosion from the Minister, but all the Minister said was, "If it is in order, I have nothing further to say." So it is that the Egyptians very often simply want to know where they stand. That is why, last summer, when the then Prime Minister made his statement on the subject of the Sudan, though I was sitting on the other side of the House, representing a different political party, I welcomed his declaration as a clear and definite statement of English intentions. Nothing has been more fatal than the pastime of blowing hot one moment and cold the next.

Members of the House who see copies of the European papers published in Egypt will observe that our foreign critics are very friendly. They one and all say that if Great Britain had only shown a little sign of strength a little earlier it would have been much better. The people who started to show firmness and to give a definite line were the late Government headed by the then Prime Minister, who gave the first firm declaration I heard on the subject of Egypt for many years. I congratulated the right hon. Gentleman at the time and I have no reason to withdraw my congratulations. I merely regret then that the late Prime Minister should have adopted a line of criticism which he himself knows full well many of us on these benches abstained from taking when he and his friends occupied the Government Benches. The late Prime Minister knows there were Members on these benches who did nothing to make his task more difficult but rather did their best to make it easier. If questions of an awkward diplomatic character arose, rather than create difficulties those questions were not asked. If anybody cares to ask the late Prime Minister about that matter, I think the right hon. Gentleman will bear out what I say. A great deal of criticism has been directed against the form and the matter of the ultimatum. Personally I see nothing to complain about. We have had a full explanation with regard to the water question. I shall say nothing about that question, as there is an hon. Member of this House who had 18 years' experience in the engineering department and knows the water question from A to Z. I trust he will be called and will be able to give the House any information which they desire to have on this subject. I allude to the hon. Member for Inverness (Sir M. Macdonald). The critics say that this action taken by the brutal Conservative Government is cruel and horrible. I wonder how many of the critics have read of what happened to the murderers of Marshal Moreau in Cairo a little over 100 years ago under Napoleon. If they wish to understand real severity I recommend that as not a pleasant but an instructive study.

To come down to the elements of the situation, what do the other side and the critics suggest? That we should call in the services of the League of Nations or some analogous body. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper) on his brilliant maiden speech. One of the most brilliant parts of it was that in which he dealt with the League of Nations question. From my own point of view it seems to me that to invite the League of Nations to undertake this task would be to do it an injury and to do the Sudanese a grave disservice. I come back once again to history. If hon. Members read the works on the subject—and there are many quite impartial works—they will find that the great difficulty which always beset Egyptian administration was the fact that it was subject to internationalism. There was first the dual control, which was international and which had the right to interfere and intermeddle, but had no executive responsibility, and then you had the Caisse de la Dette, the Railway Board, the mixed tribunal, the Daira Sania, the Domains Administration—all international Commissions and all strangling progress. That sort of thing the critics desire to perpetuate. I should like to read one quotation from the work of Lord Milner when he dealt in particular with the Assuan Dam, an irrigation work of untold value and of great engineering skill. He says this: talked about Scandinavian professors. For a Commission to be able to settle and decide this intelligently, they must have ample knowledge of hydraulic engineering in tropical countries, and, so far as I am aware, the only country which possesses that knowledge extensively is the United States of America, a country outside the League of Nations. Under those circumstances, I consider that the object of the Amendment, the institution of an International Commission to settle our perfectly clear differences for us, when we, and we alone, are the only people who can settle them with the Egyptians, is one which we cannot support. I have heard speakers on the other side suggest that Saad Zaghloul Pasha represents Egypt and the Egyptian position, that the Parliament supporting Saad Zaghloul Pasha represents the considered electoral opinion of the free and independent voters of Egypt. Ninety per cent. of those voters are illiterate, and if I know Zaghloul—and I do know him and his methods—I am certain that he and they have done nothing to deserve the commendation of Members sitting on the other side.

Saad Zaghloul is an autocrat at the head of a miserable, despotic oligarchy. The methods he employed on his return are well known to be tyrannical and despotic to the last degree. Some years ago Saad Zaghloul returned on a triumphal progress from Europe. What happened? He came to Alexandria, and the collectors went round from house to house assessing the servants in every house and the owners of the houses for the entertainment and the display of spontaneous nationalism that Zaghloul was to receive on his return from foreign countries. The money was collected under threats, and when Zaghloul came there were banquets and school children crying: "We want freedom," and I do not know what else, but those demonstrations were in no sense spontaneous, and the money obtained from those people was wrung from them under exactly the same system as that under which votes were obtained from the unwilling voters. The peasantry of Egypt, the fellaheen, require one thing. They want to be left alone, and not to be worried, to grow their crops uninterruptedly, and to lead their own lives. Under the spirit described as Cromerism, they were able to do it; under the spirit of Zaghloul, they have not been able to do it. Under the spirit of Ziwar Pasha, if we give him full support and see that the village officials are not appointed at the whim of Ministers, that Ministers do not put their hands too deep in the till, the fellaheen will once more enjoy that spirit of freedom, those real benefits of true justice, which, under the spirit of Cromerism, they enjoyed previously and have not enjoyed since.

I should like to associate myself with what fell from the hon. and gallant Member for Bromley (Lieut.-Colonel James), who has just sat down, in congratulation of the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taylor). I cannot say that I agreed with the whole or even with much of his speech, but he spoke with a cogency and, for the most part, with a moderation for which I am sure everybody commended him. For my part, I especially admired him for the fortitude with which he endured, and even survived, the very severe ordeal of an admonition from the Chair. I am sorry that the hon. Member, my colleague in the representation of Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper), is not in his place now, as I should like to have been among the first to-congratulate him on what was also a brilliant maiden speech. I am a young enough Member of this House to realise what a tremendous satisfaction it is to-get through your maiden speech, even without collapse. He was never in danger of collapse. He gave us a splendid argument, sustainesd with humour and with eloquence, which, I am sure, will always make him speak in the future, as I hope he often will do, with acceptance in this House.

What I thought particularly admirable in his argument was the clearness with which he dealt with the suggestion, which has been made in many quarters of the House in this Debate, that the only alternatives in dealing with Egypt lie between the League of Nations and a régime of force. It seems that there are' only two policies in regard to Egypt; one is Geneva and the other is jackboots. I, personally, am totally unable to accept that point of view. After all, what is the fundamental difficulty in dealing with the Egyptian people? We all want a liberal policy, a progressive policy, carried out, with the agreement and co-operation of the Egyptian people. There is no solution short of that, and the whole question is whether the League of Nations is going to help us to get that. In order to make sure about that, it is worth looking at what is the fundamental difficulty between us and the Egyptian people. So far as I know, it does not reside in the matters which my right hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Fisher) suggested a little while ago might well be referred to the League of Nations. It does not reside in the water question, although it is important; it does not reside in the capitulations, although they are also very important; it certainly does not reside in the financial relations between Egypt and the Sudan; it does not reside in the old governing class in Egypt; it does not Reside, I believe, in the fellaheen.

Your sole difficulty in Egypt is with the Egyptian Nationalist movement, of which Zaghloul Pasha is the head, and the reason why you cannot come to any agreement with them at the present time is that they deny in to to your right to an agreement based on a claim of right. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members above the Gangway agree with them. That is the issue. They say: "You have no right to claim an agreement on these points. Waive your claim of right, and we will then do our best to make an arrangement which suits your convenience, but we cannot admit the claim of right." That is the attitude with which you are dealing in Egypt. How are you going to solve that by reference to the League of Nations? We cannot accept their view that a permanent relation between this country and Egypt can be based simply on arrangements of convenience, because evidently that does not meet what we believe to be our just claim for security. Arrangements for convenience may be convenient at one moment but may be inconvenient at another. They are not durable, they are not permanent. They are not guaranteeing what we regard as the essential of our security. We cannot accept the point of view which suggests that we have no claims of right. I do not see how the League of Nations can settle that difficulty. The League of Nations does not own the soil of Egypt. If anybody has a right to claim a special position with regard to the Egyptian people it is the British Empire. If we have no special position, then France, Italy, and all the other nations interested in the League of Nations have no position comparable with ours. I cannot conceive that a decision of the League of Nations would reconcile the Egyptian nationalists to surrender what they regard as their rights. They would say they had not agreed to the terms of reference, and we would get no permanent solution on those lines.

I am convinced that the real difficulty is to make the Egyptian Nationalist understand and realise that, while we wish to leave the Government of Egypt in his hands, we have claims of right which we are not going to modify. We have asserted those claims, but we have asserted them always with a certain air of not being quite sure of ourselves. I am convinced that there is in this question an issue of fundamental importance to the British Empire at the present time. If we have rights in Egypt and in the Sudan—and this question applies also to India and other parts of the Empire—then we cannot be fortified in those rights by the agreement of other nations who have no rights. If we have rights, let us show we have confidence in our own rights. Then we shall get confidence restored, and agreement and cooperation on progressive lines. If we have no rights, then we cannot expect any diplomatic support we may get from foreign nations to bolster up a moral authority in which we do not believe ourselves.

I regard this Egyptian case as a test case. If you take the question of our political relations with Egypt to the League of Nations, you would not be strengthening your moral authority in Egypt. You would not be helping forward agreement and co-operation on lines which we desire. You would be weakening the moral authority on which the securing of ultimate co-operation depends. It would show that we believe no longer in ourselves, that we must have recourse to a kind of board of guardians behind us. On those lines the British Empire cannot endure. I do not believe there is any chance that reference to the League of Nations would assist in the solution of what is the main problem in Egypt. I agree it might help in the settlement of subsidiary questions when the main agreement has been reached. I cannot see how it will assist in helping the solution of the main difficulty between the Egyptian Nationalists and ourselves.

If that be the state of matters from the standpoint of the British Empire and of Egypt, what about the League of Nations itself? Is reference of this question to the League of Nations going to strengthen the League of Nations, as the late Prime Minister suggested it would? I think the authors of the Covenant were wiser in this matter than the late Prime Minister. They introduced into the Covenant an Article which specially exempted from the operation of the Covenant regional conventions and understandings of the nature of the Monroe Doctrine, because they realised there is a borderland of subjects with which the League of Nations cannot attempt to deal without challenging national security and sovereignty so seriously that the League of Nations would not be able to support the burden. That Article, Article 21, was put in at the request of the American representatives. One of the first things necessary to strengthen the League is to get the American people to associate themselves with it. The Monroe Doctrine, after all, which is exempted by Article 21, is a vague doctrine. It has taken many different forms. It has at one time taken the form of announcing to the people of South America that they cannot alienate land to a European Power even by their own consent. I do not suppose that claim is maintained now, but there is a certain claim of jurisdiction or protectorate over the rest of the American continent which is not accepted by the other nations on the American continent. If that is a claim which cannot be submitted to the League of Nations, how much stronger is the case of the special relations which we have laid down with regard to Egypt? The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Foreign Affairs read them out. He also read out the statement which we communicated to foreign Powers at the time we made our Declaration to Egypt. Nothing could be clearer than that we regarded our relations with Egypt as coming within Article 21 of the Covenant of the League and as therefore being a subject which could not properly be referred to it.

If the American people would not be prepared—and everyone knows they would not be prepared—to submit a thing like the Monroe Doctrine to the League of Nations, how much more would they be unwilling to submit a question like their relations with Cuba? I do not believe that, when we made our Declaration to Egypt, any of the Ministers responsible for making and framing that Declaration had in their minds the Platt Amendment on which the special relations between America and Cuba were established in the final form of the Cuban constitution, but the fact remains that the relations of America with Cuba are extraordinarily similar to the special arrangements we have declared with Egypt. They are as follow: America refuses to evacuate Cuba, or to abandon her military government there until the Cubans had accepted the provisions in their Constitution as follows:

On a point of Order. Is it in order to discuss the question of Cuba and the Monroe Doctrine under the terms of the Amendment?

It would not be in order to discuss it as a subject. It is in order to suggest it as an analogy.

You called to Order an hon. Member on these benches for suggesting something about Robbie Burns. He might have been using that as an analogy.

I said nothing whatever with regard to Robert Burns. The hon. Member was getting a long way both from Egypt and Russia. I had given him an admonition, and with commendable adroitness he associated it with his argument about Russia.

I will not pursue Cuba any further than that it is relevant to an argument as to whether our status in Egypt should be referred to the League of Nations. The Article in the Covenant of the League of Nations, in spite of which this would be done, is one which was expressly framed to exclude the relationship between America and Cuba, similar to that which we have with Egypt, from the operation of the Covenant. That was the object. America controls the financial policy by laying down that Cuba is not to incur any debt beyond her resources. She undertakes the protection of foreigners in Cuba and the negotiation of all questions in which Cuba may be concerned with foreign Powers, and she finally says that she, if necessary,

"takes the right to establish a Government necessary for the protection of life and property and individual liberty."

Those provisions are, if anything, even stronger than we have laid down in our own case with regard to Egypt. I cannot conceive that the League of Nations would be served or helped by creating a precedent which would enable Cuba to appeal to the League of Nations against the United States. You may say Cuba would not do so. So far as I know, she is not a member. But if you create a precedent of this kind, it is very difficult to avoid such appeals being made, and what happens then? Only one thing can happen—a complete and absolute rebuff of the League of Nations by the United States, and the final dissipation of all hope that the United States will ever have anything to do with the League. I conceive, therefore, nothing could be more ill-advised, from the point of view of the League, than to ignore the very grave exceptions made in Article 21 of the Covenant, and refer this question, as a mere matter of convenience, to the League. I shall, therefore, have great pleasure in voting against this Amendment this evening. If the hour were not so late, I would have some pleasure, also, in developing the Russian side of the argument. I do not propose to do so. I observe with some surprise that the championship of the case, at any rate in the earlier part of the Debate, was changed. There was nothing weak in the championship of the case in the last Parliament. What was weak was the case itself. It seems to me it has gained nothing from its new championship, and I shall have pleasure in voting against the Amendment, both on the Egyptian and the Russian ground to-night.

My excuse for intervening in this Debate is that, during the War, I spent a considerable time in Egypt. I did not have the opportunity of seeing the statement or rulers of Egypt, but I did see a good deal of the people residing in the country districts, and I certainly formed the opinion that among the native Egyptians there was no hostility whatever towards the British. It was at a time when the state of affairs was critical, when the Senussi controversy was on, and when the Turks were doing all they could to stir up in Egypt ill-feeling against British rule, but in remote places in Upper Egypt one used to go out in villages and across the fields, never thinking of carrying a revolver. You were as safe as you were anywhere in the English countryside, and the Egyptian people treated you with a hospitality that was really embarrassing, on account of its abundance, for when you were entertained by an Egyptian, it was the custom that if a guest refused any dish, the host had to refuse it, too, which made it a little difficult for the guest, if he had any regard for his digestion, as some of their meals used to run into 13 to 14 courses. In addition to the kindliness which they showed, and the hospitality they displayed towards one, I believe there really was a feeling of gratitude towards the British for the material improvement that they had effected towards those cultivating land in Egypt.

In an agricultural country there is no better test of the prosperity of the country than the price which land will fetch. At one time I was in the neighbourhood of Minye, and round there I was informed that before the Assuan Dam was made—and, of course, that was only made under the British regime—land used to fetch about £25 an acre. Now it fetches about £150, and the rent of the land is about £5 or £6 against the desert, to £11 in the middle of the country, and round the towns land would actually be letting for £25 an acre. That, of course, is evidence of very great agricultural prosperity. A lot of that land is owned by small men, the fellaheen, and the fellaheen who work upon the land, I believe, have also a feeling of gratitude to the British regime. I saw it stated in one of the papers the other day that the fellaheen had grown fat and prosperous under British rule. That is not true. The last thing you can call a fellah is fat. The fellaheen are the leanest people I have ever seen. The conditions under which they live leave a great deal to be desired, but they do have security against oppression and against actual ill-usage, which they did not have at the time when they were ruled by the Egyptians directly.

What the exact form of government is in Egypts, whether the Protectorate went on or not, I do not think makes a very great deal of difference. I doubt if any of the people living in the country would know for a considerable time, because when the Protectorate was in existence, the local government was in the hands almost entirely of natives. In spite of all this, there is no doubt that when the question was put to an electioneering test a very great majority—a majority that has already been described by the Eon. Gentleman whose maiden speech has been so much complimented to-night—supported the followers of Zaghloul. That is the fact that is up against us now. They say there is to be a General Election in Egypt. I do not know anything about Egyptian electioneering. I do not quite know how the question of the majority is to be dealt with. We cannot send out, say, Lord Younger, or the hon. and gallant Member for Howdenshire (Lieut.-Colonel Jackson) to organise the Conservative party, but I think it is possible, when they hold their elections, we shall find there is a considerable party backing the principles of Zaghloul. The only thing we can do is to take the line, that whatever Government they have, and whatever the party majority may be in the Egyptian Parliament, we must stand firm about the points that we reserved when the Protectorate was abolished two years ago. We must keep troops in Cairo for the protection of the foreign population, we must keep troops in Alexandria, not only for the protection of the foreign population, but we must do it for the protection of our line of communications through the Suez Canal, as well as because of the water supply of Kantara. For these reasons, it is essential that we insist on keeping our troops is Cairo and Alexandria. In regard to the Sudan, the Leader of the Opposition said most plainly that our position in the Sudan must be maintained. We have heard from the Foreign Secretary to-day that he hopes to maintain the Condominium. That is a possibility I take leave to doubt. But I am quite sure that, whether in the future the Sudan is to be ruled by us, or whether it is to be ruled by a Condominium, it is quite essential, if England is to maintain her position there, that we must send out the Egyptian troops and the Egyptian officers who are in the Sudan.

I want to ask one question of my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who I understand, is to wind up the Debate. That is in regard to the Army in the Sudan. A considerable part of that army was under the Sirdar, and there were a considerable number of Egyptian troops in that army. Has he yet decided what is to be the future of the Sudan Army? Whether it is to be made up by Sudanese levies to its former level, and who is to pay for it? Because in the past it has been paid for, partly out of Sudan funds and partly out of Egyptian funds. I want to know whether in future the Sudan is to bear the whole of the cost, and, if so, whether they will be able to bear it. I was very glad indeed to hear what the Foreign Secretary said this afternoon on what undoubtedly is a very important question. The Sudan has a claim to a great deal of the water, because a great deal of it is due to the great work that has been done in the Sudan. It is a matter of life and death to the people of Egypt to know that they run no risk of there being any shortage of their water supply. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about having a committee to regulate the water supplies, so that there might be no fear of Egypt being short of water. Will means be taken to make that known as widely as possible in Egypt? I do not know any people in the world that carry out more literally the theory of Malthus, that a population always tends to increase up to the margin of subsistence. When I was out there I inquired what wages a fellah got. I was told that a man got 40 piastres—about 10d. a day-and if he got a few more he took another wife; which shows how near they run to the marging of subsistence. However, in regard to the water supply, I want it not only from the Foreign Secretary, or his representative, but what I think is equally important, as that it should be made clear to the people that they are absolutely safe.

The right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate made a comment upon the ultimatum that was addressed to the Egyptian Government. I have no doubt that he represented with great ability the feeling of those that his party represent. Perhaps he will forgive me for saying that there are other people in the country who may play a part at election times, and who were extremely relieved that when this crisis came on the conduct of it was in the hands of a Government who made it clear at once that we were going to stand no nonsense. There are a very large number of people in the country who joined, and joined most heartily, in the congratulations which the Foreign Secretary has told us he has received from various sources upon the firm and British way in which we have dealt with this difficult subject.

I have listened to most of this Debate, and I was specially interested to see that such an early demonstration of the unity and independence of the party sitting above by the announcement of the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper), who said that nothing would give him such pleasure and satisfaction as to vote against the Amendment. He was cheered by a portion of the House, probably as a new convert, but I observed the silence amongst his colleagues. So far as we are concerned, we are not going to make any attempt to change their views on this well-considered subject. But I want to put the case quite clearly. Whatever may be the merit of the Amendment, the Amendment itself has served a very useful purpose. It has enabled hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House to ask themselves very seriously how they got there, and what they are doing now.

Let me first congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the candour of his statement. He said that when asked for his views of inter-Allied debts he contented himself by saying: "We never keep a dog and bark ourselves." He meant of course that in this case the dog was the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I can quite understand he would tell his foreign friends how capable the Chancellor of the Exchequer was of barking. What I was wondering was what he would have said if one of those foreign gentlemen did not know the Chancellor of the Exchequer so well as we do and pressed the question: "Will you tell us exactly the breed of the dog?" I positively refuse, as a known dog fancier, to answer the question. Whatever may have been said on the question of Russia and of Egypt, I will content myself by endorsing what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said about Egypt—I mean the ex-Prime Minister; he ought to have been Prime Minister, and will he Prime Minister. I will content myself by saying that we all associate ourselves with this—that it should be clearly understood that, however much we may criticise or join issue with the Government on general questions, nothing we say in this Debate must be interpreted abroad as an indication of countenance of any sort or kind to murder, such as we all deplore.

I propose to deal with the remarkable, candid and significant admissions of the Foreign Secretary. He said, speaking as Foreign Secretary, "I want to make it clear to the world, and especially to those misguided people who may not have understood it before, that any charge against the late Prime Minister of being a party to any delay in the publication of the Zinovieff letter is a charge that is unfounded." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I hope every Member on the other side who is sitting there because of the use he made of the delay will equally take the opportunity of saying "Hear, hear!" to his constituents, because if this statement means anything, it means that we sitting on these benches were not only accused unfairly, but that the late Prime Minister, the most maligned of statesmen, has been vindicated to-day. Well may the Foreign Secretary say, "I am not going to argue this question. The mischief has already been done. We have got our reward, and we are content to sit here and enjoy it." Let us examine how this statement of no delay, no deliberate attempt on the part of the late Foreign Secretary to withhold anything, squares, not with the statements of the ordinary back bencher, not with the statements of people libelling us upon the doorsteps, nor of those who are content to make any statement without attempting to have proof of it, but square with the statements of the right hon. Gentlemen sitting on the benches opposite? The Foreign Secretary says to-night, "Let me make it clear to the world that anybody who accuses the late Foreign Secretary of delay in the publication of this letter is mistaken."

May I just say I do not think it ought to have been left to me to make that defence. If the ex-Prime Minister had explained all the facts at once it would not have been necessary.

10.0 P.M.

I am delighted to hear that, seeing that my right hon. Friend, as I shall show in a moment, did not wait for the facts himself, but only got them after he got his job. What is more important, my right hon. Friend can hardly say that when he has admitted to-night that some of the most material facts came into their possession after we had left office. Let me deal with them. I quote first from the "Times" Parliamentary correspondent, and I am assuming that this information and these statements had some bearing upon the result of the election. Two days before the election the "Times" Parliamentary correspondent made this statement:

"During the past week it was a matter of common gossip that a message from Zinovieff had been intercepted, and on Friday afternoon it was known that the text would be published on the following morning. It is understood that certain officials at the Foreign Office have been pressing for the publication of the document for at least a fortnight."

No one knows better than the present Foreign Secretary that that is not only a deliberate lie, but a libel on the conduct of my right hon. Friend the late Foreign Secretary. That was the statement two days before the election. An ex-Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home), speaking on the same day, said:

"Nothing but compulsion could have induced the Government to reveal this letter."

That has been answered by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

I must not interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, as he has very little time, and I will undertake not to interrupt again, but I want to observe that the statement that I made was that there was no delay, undue delay, by the late Prime Minister in dealing with this matter having regard to the circumstances of the time. I did not go into the question of whether the Saturday morning on which publication actually took place was not the latest hour at which it ought to have taken place.

That would be all right if my right hon. Friend had not spoken after the late Prime Minister had made his statement. Remember that the late Prime Minister was expected to deal with it at Swansea on the Saturday afternoon. The Sunday morning papers all made capital of the silence of my right hon. Friend in his Swansea speech. My right hon. Friend spoke on the Monday at Cardiff and gave the details. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke the next day, and what did the present Foreign Secretary say? I am now quoting from my right hon. Friend speaking at Birmingham:

"What is to be said for a Prime Minister who, campaigning for his party and for himself in a General Election, bottled up information which even then ought to have been causing him the greatest disquietude?"

No. I have not got it. I am now showing that the right hon. Gentleman one day before the Election actually made the statement that the ex-Prime Minister bottled up the information and caused delay. That is the Foreign Secretary. But let us go on. The present Colonial Secretary spoke on the 27th, and he said:

"Why was such a document, so damning to the Government, published on the very eve of the Election? Was it to avoid a still more damaging exposure?"

You have heard the Foreign Secretary say that if there is one thing my right hon. Friend had nothing to be ashamed of, it was his dealing with this letter, and yet the Colonial Secretary on the eve of the Election said he has kept quiet because he is afraid of further exposure. Let us see what the Prime Minister said about it. Mark you, he was fishing with clean bait, only he happened to be fishing in dirty water. On the eve of the Election he said, speaking at Sheffield:

"The Prime Minister, who obviously believed in the authenticity of the letter, stated his belief to his colleagues. Was it really the fact that the Home Secretary was kept in the dark if the Prime Minister marked as a minute on that letter to the Foreign Office 'Publicity'? Why was it held up till 24th October? The answer is obvious."

Why was it held up? You have heard the Foreign Minister say the fault does not lie here. Hon. Gentlemen opposite anticipated they would be the Government. My friends here ( pointing to the Liberal Benches ) were in some doubt. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that "When all of them are libelling MacDonald—the Prime Minister—surely this is not a game I can leave to the Tories themselves. Let me join in the fray." Not to be outdone, he spoke on the same day, and he said:

"It is incredible that a British Government should have a document like this in its possession and withhold it from the public. It seems that it had been deliberately withheld."

I am quite sure I know my right hon. Friend sufficiently well to say that when the facts are told him, and he realises he made a mistake and sees what a grave injustice he has done to my right hon. Friend, he will be breaking his neck to apologise. It is only fair to say it seems to have done hon. Gentlemen opposite a bit of good. There were Gentlemen in the other House who were not to be denied the opportunity. Lord Curzon went to Leicester, where he was speaking as an ex-Foreign Secretary, who had the privilege of all Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench, and which we had, namely, access to documents, when we were in office. Lord Curzon had all the opportunity and advantage for making himself acquainted with the facts. Lord Curzon said:

"Copies of this Zinovieff letter were communicated to Mr. MacDonald and to Mr. Henderson about a month ago."

That is untrue, as my right hon. Friend knows—

"He ventured to say that if the 'Daily Mail" had not got hold of it and published it we should never have heard the Government's reply at all."

From those who have heard the Foreign Secretary's statement, that statement was a lie. [An HON. MEMBER: "What was the date of Lord Curzon's speech?"] The 25th. That was on the Saturday. The letter was published on that morning. The interruption means that Lord Curzon could not possibly have ascertained his facts from the "Daily Mail." In other words, Lord Curzon was dependent on the "Daily Mail" for his facts. Then Lord Birkenhead dealt with it on the same day. He said:

"Was the document sent to the Prime Minister and Mr. Arthur Henderson, and, if go, why had they kept their mouths shut on this vital matter for nearly three weeks? The only reason for the sudden publication of the letter was the knowledge that every newspaper was going to publish it on that day."

Right hon. Gentlemen opposite say, "Hear, hear," but the implication of that means that my right hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) sanctioned the publication of that letter because he was afraid of its publication in the "Daily Mail." It is too late for hon. Members opposite to deny this now, because every hon. Member of this House knows that they conveyed that impression, and they deliberately conveyed the impression that if it were not for the "Daily Mail" my right hon. Friend would not have sanctioned the publication of that letter. The honour of my right hon. Friend is involved in this matter, and we have a right to challenge you when the honour of a man is involved. I challenge you to prove from your knowledge of all that has taken place since the documents and evidence were at your disposal that my right hon. Friend was influenced or had any knowledge of the "Daily Mail" having possession of this particularletter—

The right hon. Gentleman challenges me and calls for an answer. I do not for a moment suggest that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) had any knowledge of the publication in the "Daily Mail," but my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby forgets what is the whole case of the late Prime Minister, namely, that he never authorised publication, and that he never intended publication to take place.

Now we have got him. Here are statements from Lord Birkenhead and Lord Curzon, which meant and were intended to convey to the public that my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister would not have published this letter were it not that he was afraid of the "Daily Mail" publishing it. Now we have the admission that he knew nothing about it. I hope the same Press, that was so anxious to convey this impression, will now be equally fair in conveying the facts. I would like to say why I am more than perturbed upon this matter. I have never disguised from the men that I lead and from the country my strong view that I want to make the British House of Commons a place respected by the democracy of this country. I have taken my stand in pleading to the workers that this is the place where you can get justice, and I have tried to convey to them the idea that this is the representative assembly of this country. Will they believe that when they are told that the Government has been elected by false pretences? No sneers or laughter in this House can get over the feeling of resentment amongst the working classes. At all events, I am content to have had this vindication of my right hon. Friend. But it does not get over the second stage in these proceedings. What must have worried many Members this afternoon is, how does it come about that this document, in connection with which there is so much doubt, even at this stage, came into the possession of the "Daily Mail"? No one can complain of any Press, no matter what section it is, doing something in the public interest. We have no right to complain if we are satisfied that it is done in the public interest. But it is rather sinister that, although this letter appeared on the Saturday morning, the 25th October, I am now quoting what appeared, with a reproduction of a photograph of Zinovieff, in the "Manchester Evening Chronicle" of the 22nd October—three days before the publication on the Saturday. This is what the "Manchester Evening Chronicle" said:—

The matter does not quite finish there. You have got the admission to-day, first, that the Prime Minister was not responsible for the delay; you have got the admission that he withheld nothing from the public; you have got the admission that he knew nothing even of the publication; you have got the admission of my right hon. Friend that, after the most careful inquiry, he is satisfied that the letter is genuine. Does every Member of the House think it is genuine? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes! Do you?"] We were defeated in this House on a Motion which involved the prosecution of someone named Campbell, for advising sedition in the Army and Navy. You have all said, "Yes this letter is genuine." McManus signed it. Are you going to prosecute him? Just imagine the situation. Where are the people who are not going to tolerate interference with the Army or the Navy? Where are the people who defeated this Government because of their week-kneed methods in dealing with Campbell? The Attorney-General says it was rumoured in legal circles that the Prime Minister marked "no prosecution." Not only is that untrue, but if he follows the example of my right hon. Friend he will get up and say it is untrue. Now you are all satisfied that this letter is genuine and that McManur, tried to intimidate the Army you have not the courage to go on with the prosecution. In a few moments we shall go into the Division Lobby. We shall be badly beaten there, but we await with confidence the verdict of the people outside.

I should like, after the interesting speech we have just heard, to remind the House of what they would never have gathered from that speech, that the Question which you, Sir, will shortly put from the Chair relates to

"the policy that is being pursued by Your Majesty's advisers with regard to Egypt and Russia."

I had to undertake the very onerous task, as I thought it, of following the right hon. Gentleman and I provided myself with a number of sheets of paper in order to take notes of the damaging criticism I anticipated. I am sorry to say the paper remains blank. The right hon. Gentleman has really devoted the whole of his speech to one proposition, which he put before the House in these words, that the present Government hold their places by false representations. I have been a good many years in this House, but my recollection of politics and General Elections goes back before my own occupancy of a seat in this House, and I am certain I can safely say there never yet was a Government returned to office by a General Election that did not hold their place by false pretences in the opinion of those whom they had displaced. I am really not going to follow the right hon. Gentleman at any length because it appears to me that, if all he said is true, if all the hon. Members who are sitting on this side of the House, or any large portion of them, are here because, according to the right hon. Gentleman, they unjustly accused the late Prime Minister of delay in publishing a certain letter, the only thing it proves, to my mind, is that the British people are incapable of self-government. I do not believe that the people of this country are half as stupid as the right hon. Gentleman would suggest. I want to make a humble confession, if I may. I am far too obscure a person to have my speeches quoted at a General Election or brought up in this House. Therefore I want to bring them up myself. I have not verified them. I am speaking from recollection, but I am very much afraid that I was one of those who said something to this effect: "Judging by the dates, it does look very much as if the Prime Minister had had this letter for some time in his possession." I think it did, looked at from the dates. It is quite true that when my right hon. Friend goes to the Foreign Office and finds out the facts, of course, as everyone would expect him to do, he comes forward now and says that that impression was wrong. That impression could have been dissipated in a moment by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

My hon. Friends who are now accused of holding their places on false pretences did not know that. They had to judge by the facts as they were contained in the Press at the time, and everybody else had the same opportunity. I do not believe for one moment that it had any widespread effect. There is one further point in the same connection on which I wish to say a word, because the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken and the Leader of the Opposition both referred to it. They seem very much exercised in their minds as to how this particular letter got to the "Daily Mail." I think the right hon. Gentleman also mentioned some evening newspaper somewhere in the North of England. Why does he address that question to us. How in the world do we know any more than he does?

It got to the "Daily Mail" while the right hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office. Why did not they inquire how it got there?

The right hon. Gentleman says that they did inquire. Yet the Leader of the Opposition asks us to make a further inquiry. What is the use of our inquiring if they have already inquired? All I can say is, that we have not sufficient interest to inquire. How it got to the "Daily Mail" does not concern us in the least. The right hon. Gentlemen opposite had just as good an opportunity of ascertaining the facts; we have. What I resent, and what I think we all resent on this side, is that they speak of the appearance of the letter in the "Daily Mail" and in other newspapers as if it was a special concern of ours.

The right hon. Gentleman erroneously attributes a benefit to us. I wish to devote most of my time, which is very short, not to the question with which the right hon. Gentleman has just entertained the House, but with the actual terms of the Amendment which has been moved. I have followed the Debate from the rather pundit-like opening by the right hon. Member the late Minister of Education, and through its various stages, and whether or not it was because the party opposite thought that the attack on the policy of the Government was falling rather flat, the right hon. Gentleman who had to wind up for the Opposition thought that he would find a little more exciting topic if he went back to the "Daily Mail" and the Zinovieff letter. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition we ought to thank for the extreme mildness of his criticism of the Government policy. As far as I can understand him, he had only one objection. He thought that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was rather over-emphasising the continuity between our policy and that of our predecessors; he thought that my right hon. Friend was making too much use of the despatch which was quoted to the House. Apart from that I do not think that the Leader of the Opposition really took any great exception to anything that we are doing. He said that he did not approve of our handling of the crisis in Egypt, but, when he came to explain his objections, they were not anything very pungent or important. He said that nobody could have gathered from the tone of the ultimatum the sentiments on the question of Egyptian water which were expressed by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. He spoke of a modified policy in that respect. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there has been no modification. The only thing that has taken place has been, as was inevitable in the circumstances, a fuller explanation of what that policy has been than it was possible to give at the moment.

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secret tary has explained this afternoon that if the circumstances had been a little different, it is possible that the actual wording of our ultimatum might have been altered. I quite agree that in some quarters there has been a temporary misunderstanding, if only a temporary one, with regard to our intentions in that respect. That, I hope, has been quite cleared up by my right hon. Friend to-day. He has said clearly that there is not and never has been any intention whatever on the part of His Majesty's Government to interfere with the fair flow of water which is necessary for the Egyptian people, and the only reason why the word "unlimited" was put into the ultimatum is that it was impossible at the moment to say exactly what might be a fair amount to irrigate in the Sudan; all that we could say at the moment was that it was quite indefinite. "Indefinite" might have been a better word than "unlimited." At all events, there never was any intention of taking for the Sudan water which was required for the prosperity of Egypt and to which the Egyptians have a legitimate claim. The right hon. Gentleman said very truly that we are most anxious to maintain the independence of Egypt, but he seemed to be afraid that, while that would be our policy and our desire, we might possibly drift from one step to another without sufficient foresight, and find ourselves obliged to abrogate the independence of Egypt. He said that there must be agreement with the Egyptian Parliament. I quite admit that this is a matter in which you cannot go upon the principle in Cardinal Newman's beautiful hymn: League of Nations, only two members of that party have spoken in this Debate, and both of them have most strongly opposed the reference to the League of Nations.

May I be allowed to say that I have been waiting here all day to speak in exactly the opposite direction to that indicated by my right hon. Friend.

I did not in the least mean to imply—I had no knowledge on the point—that there was no Liberal Gentleman sitting there in his place, who held an opposite view. All I said was that the two who managed to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, spoke strongly against that proposal. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] As for the hon. Member who was so anxious to express an opposite view, I am sorry he did not get an opportunity of giving us that demonstration of Liberal unity. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Fisher) has as good a qualification as anyone in this House to speak on behalf of the League of Nations. I had not the advantage of hearing all he said but I understand he spoke strongly against the reference to the League of Nations of the main question. There are certain subsidiary questions which he thought might usefully be referred to the League of Nations. The first was the question of any money compensation that might become payable from the Sudan to the Egyptian Government. The second was any arrangements that might be made for a regime, in substitution for the capitulations; and the third was the appointment of a chairman of the Conservancy or Water Board which we are proposing to set up for dealing with the Nile water. All that I can say in reference to those three subsidiary matters is that it is an interesting suggestion that the machinery of the League might be used in that way. It cannot be decided at the present moment, but I do not imagine that His Majesty's Government would have any rooted objections to the use of the machinery of the League for those purposes. My right hon. Friend beside me, the Foreign Secretary, reminds me that when the right hon. Member for the Combined Universities spoke of compensation payable by the Sudan, that could not possibly arise. We do not agree that there is any circumstance under which that could arise, and, therefore, so far as that particular suggestion is concerned, I ought not, perhaps, to have included it in saying that we might use the machinery of the League.

Now I want to say something about the twin subject of Russia before I sit down. I would like to say this to hon. Members in regard to the Zinovieff letter, which I think is really a legitimate criticism, and it does not seem to have been put forward before. A large number of Members sitting opposite evidently have the strongest possible belief that what is called the Zinovieff letter is a forgery. Why? We have never had any explanation. We have had a great deal of talk about evidence and so on, but what is the evidence upon which hon. Members opposite found their opinion that it is a forgery? There have been statements made by various individuals in Russia. I do not know whether there has been any statement by anybody who knows anything about it in this country. There have been statements by individuals, but it seems to me a very curious thing at all events that hon. Members opposite think it is a forgery without having had any opportunity, I will not say of seeing the original, but of even seeing a copy.

On a point of Order. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that the people whose names are appended to the letter have refused to recognise their signatures?

My time is very short, but I think the point I have made is worth the consideration of hon. Members opposite. When the right hon. Gentleman demands an inquiry, may I ask what he means by that? He, surely, does not mean by that that he would wish the Government to publish the evidence on which they have come to a conclusion that the letter is genuine. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I can understand the hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Saklatvala) saying, "Why not?" but I did not hear the Leader of the Opposition saying "Why not?" and I should be exceedingly surprised if in that particular he were not rather in disagreement with the hon. Member for North Battersea. But supposing that the inquiry were to be held, what is it to do? Does he think, that at this time of the day anybody is going to be persuaded one way or another? The hon. Members behind him have come to the conclusion that it is a forgery. They are not going to have their opinion altered by any inquiry. Therefore let us agree to differ. A certain number of people in the country—I do not think there are very many—like the hon. Gentleman opposite, have come to the conclusion that it is a forgery. They must remain, live and die under that illusion. We have come to the opposite conclusion because we know that the matter has been subjected to close examination, first of all, by the experts in a most expert department, and, secondly, by a Committee consisting among others, of some of the most eminent lawyers alive competent to sift evidence. We have come to the conclusion not by prejudice. The right hon. Gentleman complained with regard to the Russian Treaty that we had acted improperly in some way because we had scrapped the policy of our predecessors, and I understood him to say, though not in terms, that we ought to accept what he had done as a fait aaccomplait, and whether we liked it or not we should have carried on on that basis, or words to that effect. If that is so, I should like to read to the House—

I certainly understood him to say that it was very misleading to the Russians or bad policy not to effect what he had done and to carry on.

I understood him to put it higher than that. That is exactly what we are arguing. We object to these Treaties on their merits. My hon. Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) exercised his humour this evening in imagining us at some future time going through the process of arranging a commercial treaty with the Russian Government and in a humorous way he suggested we would have to have Clauses identical with those he negotiated. I do not agree with that. We had very definite and serious disagreements with these on matters of principle. Let me give merely examples. I cannot go through the clauses of the Treaty. One of the things we object to is that this Treaty recognises the one-sided principle by which our individual traders are not allowed to go and trade with Russia. They are bound to do trade alone with the Russian Government, whereas, on the other hand, the Russian Government can do their business with private individuals and private firms in this country. There are no provisions that we can find for dealing with debts and claims that are satisfactory. I see no prospect in the present Treaties of getting either trade satisfied or debts paid or interest paid upon debts. Therefore, there is really no inducement whatever to us to ratify these Treaties which my hon. Friend negotiated with so much trouble. I want to remind the House that we gave full notice last summer, when my hon. Friend was negotiating these Treaties, that we would not pass them. We did not expect at that time there would be a General Election, but we gave full notice that when Parliament reassembled in the autumn, we would not consider ourselves in any way bound by the negotiations of my hon. Friend, and I myself, speaking on that side, on behalf of the party now sitting here, used these words:

"The Government must not assume—they have now two months before the House will meet again—and they must not represent to the negotiators on behalf of Russia that it is un fait accompli or an honourable understanding which the House of Commons is bound to observe. We give the fullest notice which we can now that if this proposal is carried out, we shall denounce it in this House whenever we get an opportunity, and we shall denounce it in every part of the countrv."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th August, 1924, Cols. 3030–1; Vol. 176.]

We did denounce it in every part of the country, and the country confirmed the opinion we held. It had not very much to do with the delay of the right hon. Gentleman in publishing a certain letter. The real reason why we are sitting here with this army of supporters behind us, is because on this Russian policy as a whole the country was with us, and against the party opposite.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 132; Noes; 363.

Division No. 4.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Hayes, John Henry

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Ammon, Charles George

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Baker, Walter

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Snell, Harry

Barnes, A.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Batey, Joseph

Kelly, W. T.

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Kennedy, T.

Stamford, T. W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Stephen, Campbell

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Kirkwood, D.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Broad, F. A.

Lansbury, George

Sutton, J. E.

Bromfield, William

Lawson, John James

Taylor, R. A.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Lee, F.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Buchanan, G.

Livingstone, A. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Lunn, William

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Charleton, H. C.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Thurtle, E.

Clowes, S.

Mackinder, W.

Tinker, John Joseph

Cluse, W. S.

MacLaren, Andrew

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Varley, Frank B.

Compton, Joseph

March, S.

Viant, S. P.

Connolly, M.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Montague, Frederick

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Dalton, Hugh

Morris, R. H.

Warne, G. H.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Murnin, H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Naylor, T. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Day, Colonel Harry

Oliver, George Harold

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Dennison, R.

Paling, W.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Duncan, C.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Westwood, J.

Dunnico, H.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gibbins, Joseph

Ponsonby, Arthur

Whiteley, W.

Gillett, George M.

Potts, John S.

Wignall, James

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Ritson, J.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Greenall, T.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Rye, F. G.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Groves, T.

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Windsor, Walter

Grundy, T. W.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Scurr, John

Harris, Percy A.

Sexton, James

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Mr. Spoor and Mr. Frederick Hall.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Clarry, Reginald George

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Brass, Captain W.

Clayton, G. C.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Briggs, J. Harold

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Briscoe, Richard George

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Apsley, Lord

Brittain, Sir Harry

Cooper, A. Duff

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Cope, Major William

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Couper, J. B.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Astor, Viscountess

Brown-Lindsay, Major H.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Atkinson, C.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Bullock, Captain M.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Burman, J. B.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Balniel, Lord

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Campbell, E. T.

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Cassels, J. D.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Bennett, A. J.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Berry, Sir George

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Bethell, A.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Betterton, Henry B.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Chapman, Sir S.

Drewe, C.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Boothby, R. J. G.

Christie, J. A.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Elveden, Viscount

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Radford, E. A.

England, Colonel A.

Jacob, A. E.

Raine, W.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Ramsden, E.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Jephcott, A. R.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Everard, W. Lindsay

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Remer, J. R.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Rentoul, G. S.

Fielden, E. B.

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Finburgh, S.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Rice, Sir Frederick

Ford, P. J.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Forrest, W.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Lamb, J. Q.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

Ropner, Major L.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Sir G. (E Sussex, E'stb'ne)

Salmon, Major I.

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Loder, J. de V.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Gates, Percy

Looker, Herbert William

Sandon, Lord

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Gee, Captain R.

Lougher, L.

Savery, S. S.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Goff, Sir Park

Lumley, L. R.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)

Gower, Sir Robert

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Grace, John

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Shepperson, E. W.

Grant, J. A.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

Macintyre, Ian

Skelton, A. N.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

McLean, Major A.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Gretton, Colonel John

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Smithers, Waldron

Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Macquisten, F. A.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Mac Robert, Alexander M.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Stanley, Lord

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Malone, Major P. B

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Storry Deans, R.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Margesson, Captain D.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hammersley, S. S.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Harland, A.

Meller, R. J.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Merriman, F. B.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Harrison, G. J. C.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Haslam, Henry C.

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Tasker, Major R. Inigo

Hawke, John Anthony

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Templeton, W. P.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Crovdon, S.)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Tinne, J. A.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Hilton, Cecil

Nelson, Sir Frank

Waddington, R.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Walker, Forestier-, L.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Neville, R. J.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Holland, Sir Arthur

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Holt, Captain H. P.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Watts, Dr. T.

Homan, C. W. J.

Nuttall, Ellis

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Oakley, T.

Wells, S. R.

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Wheler, Major Granville C. H.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Pease, William Edwin

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Pennefather, Sir John

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Penny, Frederick George

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Peto, G. (Somerset. Frome)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Huntingfield, Lord

Philipson, Mabel

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hurd, Percy A.

Pielou, D. P.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Hurst, Gerald B.

Pilcher, G.

Wolmer, Viscount

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midl'n & Peebles)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Womersley, W. J.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Preston, William

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Wragg, Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Commander B. M. Eyres Monsell

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

and Colonel Gibbs.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L

Main Question again proposed.

It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

Irish Free State Land Purchase (Loan Guarantee) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."—[ Mr. Amery. ]

Are we not going to have any word of explanation from the Government? This is a Bill involving £30,000,000 of the taxpayers' money, or it may do—it is a guarantee. All we have had is the Colonial Secretary rising and moving in his delightful manner that the Bill be now read a Second time. Is that the way to treat the House of Commons? I think we should have a few words of explanation of the provisions of the Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Electricity (Supply) Acts

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the rural districts of Culham, Headington, and Woodstock, all in the county of Oxford, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the rural district of Ringwood, in the county of Southampton, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Saltburn-by-the-Sea, in the North Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the rural district of Norton and the parishes of Coal Aston and Dronfield Wood-house, in the rural district of Chesterfield, in the county of Derby, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Sheringham, and the parishes of Beeston Regis, Runton, and Overstrand, in the rural district of Erping-ham, all in the county of Norfolk, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of South wick, in the county of Sussex, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parishes of East Bedfont, Hanworth, Harmondsworth, Harlington, and Cranford, in the rural district of Staines, in the county of Middlesex, and for other purposes, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon. ]

I should like to know before this Order goes through whether it is to be dealt with by the Twickenham and Teddington District Electric Supply Company?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT
(Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon)

It is not often that we have questions of detail on these Orders, but I am willing to hold this Order over until to-morrow in order to furnish the information asked for by the hon. Member.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Seventeen Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.