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Commons Chamber

Volume 179: debated on Tuesday 16 December 1924

House of Commons

Tuesday, December 16, 1924

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Trade and Navigation

Return ordered, "of Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom for each month during the year 1925."—[ Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister .]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Enemy Action Claims

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the Reparations Claims Department will conclude its investigations and pay the different applicants; whether the Government proposes to increase the allocation of £300,000, which is admittedly inadequate; and whether, as this matter has now been under consideration for years, an effort will be made to reach a settlement at the earliest possible date?

As to the first and last parts of the question, all the claims lodged with the Reparation Claims Department have been assessed, except some 3,000 of the belated claims; and payment of unpaid claims is proceeding as rapidly as possible. As to the second part of the question, I would refer to the answer given yesterday by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. Member for Cardiff East (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke).

If it is found that this £300,000 is inadequate, as I believe is the case, will the Government——

When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the investigation of the belated claims to be completed?

I have a question on that later, but I hope that the whole will be completed and paid before the end of next month.

No, Sir. Lord Sumner's Commission finished its work, and one of the difficulties was that the whole of the belated claims grant was given out to be dealt with by the Department, but in dealing with these claims they apply the rulings laid down by Lord Sumner's Commission.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a great number of cases applications have been made by men who are now told that their claims are too late, and will he inquire into that?

I think that as regards that the difficulty is that all claims were put before the Royal Commission and no action in the matter could be taken by the Board of Trade, which has always been the paymaster of the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission then ruled that a whole section of claims must be ruled out as belated. The Government then decided to make a further grant in respect of belated claims, and, therefore, those claims which were originally ruled out by the Commission as belated rank afterwards for the special grant. That is the position.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that many persons who sent in belated claims have not yet heard the result of their claims: and whether he can give any indication of the date by which all claimants will have been informed of the result?

As to the first part of the question, belated claimants whose claims are rejected are so informed immediately a decision is arrived at. As to the second part of the question, it is anticipated that substantially all grants to belated claimants will have been paid before the end of January.

Can it be taken that all those who have received no notificatioi will eventually receive compensation?

No, Sir, that does not follow, because I understand that there are about 3,000 claims which have not yet been adjudicated upon.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will be able to announce the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to compensation for suffering and damage to civilians by' enemy action during the late War?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Cardiff East yesterday, which was to the effect that I should be glad if the question could be repeated after Christmas.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government take the view that these claimants have a right to a share of reparations or whether the payments are to be merely ex-gratia?

I think that is covered by my desire that the question should be repeated after Christmas.

Mercantile Marine

Shipwrecked Seamen (Pay)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any steps are contemplated to end the present system under which the pay of shipwrecked seamen ceases from the day their ship is lost?

As stated in the King's Speech, the Government intend to introduce a Bill to give effect to the International Labour Convention, which provides for an unemployment indemnity for shipwrecked seamen.

How long does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate that it will take before the present system is remedied in the direction indicated?

That depends upon the assistance that the Opposition give to business.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be no opposition from this side of the House to any such Measure?

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Government to take into consideration the giving of adequate compensation for the loss of seamen's kit?

Rotor Ship Propulsion

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is officially examining the invention of Herr Flettner known as the rotor sail; what steps he has taken to have this invention tested with a view to its adoption in the British Mercantile Marine; and what progress has his Department made towards obtaining the apparent advantages of this invention for the British Mercantile Marine?

The examination and adoption of new methods of propulsion for merchant ships is a matter for shipowners and shipbuilders. They are, I know, studying this invention, and I am keeping in touch with the results of their investigations.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know what sum is being asked for the British rights?

No, Sir. What I was more interested in keeping in touch with was whether this was an invention of real value.

Pilots' Certificates (Aliens)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the withdrawal of those pilots' certificates for navigation in British estuaries and ports now held by unnaturalised aliens in charge of foreign ships?

The grant of pilotage certificates to aliens is regulated by Section 24 of the Pilotage Act, 1913, and Section 4 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Have maritime foreign nations given us the same consideration as we give to them in this respect?

Coastal Shipping (Tonnage Tax)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the desirability of recommending the institution of a small tonnage tax upon foreign ships engaged in British coastal trade, in conformity with similar taxes operating against British shipping in coastal traffic of foreign countries, and in order to stimulate British shipping and the increased employment of British seamen?

Discrimination in the matter of tonnage taxes in favour of national ships is a measure which this country has consistently opposed when dealing with foreign countries, and to adopt the proposal suggested would be inconsistent with this policy, and, I think, prejudicial to its success.

S.S. "Trevessa."

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many survivors of the "Trevessa" are now living; and what awards or mementoes of their gallantry have been made to them?

The Board of Trade awarded pieces of plate to the master and chief officer of the "Trevessa" in recognition of the fine seamanship and resolution displayed in the voyage of the boats. Out of a total complement of 44, there were 33 survivors, but I am not able to say whether they are all still living.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the steward of this ship, who was mentioned for exceptional conduct, is still unemployed, and will he convey that fact to the various shipowners?

If the hon. and gallant Member has any facts of that kind and will convey them to me, I shall be very glad.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving mementoes to those members of the crew who have not received any mementoes?

Very careful consideration was given to this question at the time, and the actual award was itself exceptional in the circumstances. I think that probably the crew themselves recognise that, in honouring those responsible for the conduct of the boats, honour was done, not only to the officers in charge, but to the whole crew.

Questions

Imperial Economic Conference (Recommendations)

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the Government propose to submit for the approval of Parliament the recommendations of the Imperial Economic Conference?

The Prime Minister proposes to make a statement on this subject in the course of the Debate to-morrow.

Trade and Commerce

Imports and Exports (Statistics)

6 and 8.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage value of imports into the United Kingdom for the years 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923 compared with the year 1913, assuming the value in that year to be 100, and the corresponding figures for the same periods in volume;

(2) whether he can state the percentage value of the exports of the United Kingdom for the years 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1923 compared with the year 1913, assuming the value in that year to be 100; the percentages in volume for similar periods compared with a standard of 100 for 1913; and price levels and volume levels for re-exports?

As the answer to these two questions contains tables of figures, my hon. Friend will, perhaps, agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer :

As shown in the Board of Trade Journal for 24th January, 1924, and in corresponding issues for previous years, the average values and volume of our trade in the years specified, compared with the year 1913, are as follow:

Cotton Piece Goods (Exports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage increase or decrease in volume of the exports of cotton piece goods from the United Kingdom for the years 1921, 1922 and 1923 as compared with the year 1913?

The exports of cotton piece goods of all kinds from the United Kingdom were 57 per cent., 39 per cent, and 39 per cent., respectively, less in linear yardage in the years 1921, 1922 and 1923 than in the year 1913.

Files (Import Duty, Portugal)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can inform the House of the result of the representations made to the Portuguese Government with regard to the proposed serious increase on the duty of imported files, which might result in files imported from Great Britain being shut out altogether?

His Majesty's Ambassador at Lisbon has been instructed to address representations to the Portuguese Government on the subject and to furnish a report as soon as possible.

Rates and Taxes

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the forthcoming census of production, he will provide for the collection of information showing the cost of rates and taxes upon various staple manufactures?

The suggested inquiry is not covered by the compulsory powers conferred by the Census of Production Act, 1906. The advice tendered to my Department by the Advisory Committee on the Census, and by the various organisations which have been consulted, indicates no general desire to extend the range of the voluntary inquiries to be made in connection with the census so as to cover the charges in respect of rates and taxes falling on each industrial undertaking.

British Dyestuffs Corporation

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government directors on the board of the British Dyestuffs Corporation have been instructed to support the immediate financial reorganisation of the corporation; and, if not, does he intend to give such instruction?

I understand that the question of the financial reorganisation of the British Dyestuffs Corporation has been receiving, for some time, the attention of the board of the Corporation. They have been informed that the Government are prepared to give favourable consideration to any reasonable scheme with that object in view which may be put forward.

Foreign Goods (Marking)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to have all manufactured goods imported from foreign countries marked or stamped with the name of the country where such goods are manufactured?

My hon. Friend's suggestion would necessitate legislation. The question of amending the existing law is being considered.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these goods come to this country unmarked and are marked here and sold as British-made goods?

No, I am not aware of that, and if my hon. Friend is aware of such cases I shall be glad it he will bring them to my notice.

Questions

Hulk "Marlborough" (Loss)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the loss at sea of the wooden hulk "Marlborough"; if so, will he state the circumstances attending her loss; and whether any and, if so, how many lives were lost?

The hulk "Vernon II," late H.M.S. "Marlborough," left Portsmouth on 28th November in charge of two tugs bound for Osea Island, Essex, to be broken up. From the information so far available, it appears that when off Brighton the master of the hulk decided to return to Portsmouth owing to heavy weather. Six hours later the hulk foundered, and I regret to say that four out of the seven men on board were drowned.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when she proceeded to sea a gale was absolutely certain?

I am having a close investigation made into all the facts and collecting all the evidence, with a view to seeing whether it would be useful to order further investigation into the matter, and I should be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend would defer his question until that evidence is complete.

Gas Appliances (Inspection)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation for the purpose of securing the efficient inspection and renovation of the gas piping, fittings and appliances on consumers' premises, and the prohibition of the supply and use of unsound types of fittings, of flueless heaters liable to evolve carbon monoxide and of geysers, etc., without proper ventilation?

I do not at present contemplate legislation on this subject, but I am fully aware of its importance, and the Board of Trade are taking steps which they hope will result in the active co-operation of the gas industry and the makers of appliances in securing the objects indicated by my hon. Friend.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when we shall know the result of this action by the Board of Trade?

Is it not the fact that the undertakers will look after this matter in their own interests?

Food Prices

asked the President of the Board of Trade what approaches his Department has made during the past year, since the publication of the Report of the Linlithgow Committee, to induce trading organisations, such as those concerned with dairy produce, provisions, and fruit and vegetables, to publish weekly or daily lists of wholesale and retail prices of foodstuffs, as is now being done by the City Corporation in the case of meat, so that the housewife may be given some authoritative guidance in respect of prices?

I have been asked to reply. As my hon. Friend is aware, this suggestion is not one which was made by the Linlithgow Committee^ and my right hon. Friend does not think it would be desirable to take action in the direction suggested.

If the present lists are so useful to the housewife, why should not the same methods be tried in regard to other trading organisations?

The recommendations applied only to the City Corporation, and the reasons which made it desirable in that case do not necessarily establish that it is desirable in the case suggested in the question.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps his Department has taken in pursuance of the recommendations of the Linlithgow Committee of July, 1923, to the effect that, in view of the vital bearing of the facts upon food prices and manipulations by foreign trusts, the public should be informed at regular intervals of the total quantities of products of various kinds held in cold storage in this country?

There is, at present, no statutory power to require returns of food stocks held in cold storage. This particular recommendation, together with other suggestions, will be considered by the Royal Commission on Food Prices.

Seeing that it is 18 months since the suggestion was made, would it not be worth while trying to get this information from these organisations?

It has not been 18 months. This is one of the recommendations, and there is something to be said for it from the point of view, not so much of price, as of the ascertaining of supplies, but it would be unwise to legislate in advance of the complete findings of the Royal Commission. One of the first things that was put before the Royal Commission, even before they met, was the complete analysis of the whole of the Linlithgow Report.

asked the Prime Minister whether, following upon the investigations and recommendations of the Linlithgow Committee of 18 months ago, the trade organisations of this country, such as those centred at Covent Garden, have been invited by the various departments of the Government concerned to take steps to bring their methods and accommodation into line with the interests of producers and consumers, with an intimation that, failing internal reform of the defects indicated in the Reports, the Government would be compelled to propose legislative action; and, if so, what organisations were approached, and with what results?

I have been asked to reply for the Minister of Agriculture. The statement which my right hon. Friend circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT in reply to the question addressed to him yesterday by my hon. Friend on the subject of the Linlithgow Committee's recommendations, will, I think, give him the information he requires. If my hon. Friend desires further information on any particular point, perhaps foe will communicate with my right hon. Friend.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the reply does not give the information? I will put the question down for the first day of the new Session.

British Army

Catterick Camp

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the extensions which it is proposed to make at Catterick Camp are of such immediate urgency as to justify the delay which will be caused in the building of workmen's cottages in the whole of the surrounding neighbourhood, owing to the excessive demands by the War Office on building materials and labour?

No extension of the programme at Catterick Camp is contemplated, but the building scheme already in progress there is urgently required to provide accommodation in partial replacement of that lost in Southern Ireland, and I am therefore not in a position to modify the scheme.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is possible to mark time at Catterick in order to allow dwelling houses in the neighbouring districts to be put up with greater speed?

No, I am sorry, but it is not possible to mark time. It is required urgently within the space of time when troops will want to occupy it.

I am not very familiar with the details of the contract at Catterick. It was done when I was not responsible for it. But they are using material on the spot, I think.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked the Secretary of State for War how many candidates applied for commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps in the July examination; how many vacancies were advertised; how many officers were appointed; and, of the successful candidates, how many received their medical training in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively?

The figures are: candidates, six; vacancies, 20; appointed, five, of whom two were trained in England, one in Scotland and two in Ireland. I may add that I am personally engaged in endeavouring to remedy the present unsatisfactory position.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two out of these five have resigned because of the unsatisfactory conditions offered, and will he consider the advisability of cooperating with his colleagues in the other Departments of the Services to remedy what is a common difficulty, that is of recruiting medical officers for the Services?

I will do anything to get more medical officers for our Service, but I am not quite sure that I can accept the suggestion that the conditions of service are exactly the same in the three fighting Services.

Is it not the case that recruiting in the Universities has now come practically to a standstill owing to the system in operation?

I can only repeat that I am personally going into this and I want to find a remedy for it.

Marriage Allowance

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the evil results that flow from the withholding of the marriage allowance to the married rank and file in the Army below the age of 25, and of the distress which prevails in the families of those who are below the qualifying age for this allowance, and of the effect that this discouragement of marriage must have upon the rank and file in the Army; and whether he will press for a reconsideration of the age limit so that it may be lowered to 21?

I am aware of the considerations urged and I regret that I can hold out no prospect that the present minimum age for the grant of marriage allowance will be reduced.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the logic of fixing the age at 25?

I do not think that can be done by question and answer. On some other occasion I shall be glad to discuss it.

Street Fighting

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is proposing to introduce any changes in the section of the official publication on infantry training dealing with street fighting?

Woolwich Locomotives

asked the Secretary of State for War, in view of the recent sale of the Woolwich locomotives, whether he can now state the net cost of the experiment of building these locomotives; and whether this cost allows for all charges, commissions, rates, and warehousing, etc., during the long period the goods were unsaleable?

The cost of manufacturing these engines was £1,339,580, but it is not possible to determine the net result of the entire transaction of manufacture and sale until all the engines have been sold, which is not yet the case.

Have any of these locomotives been purchased by the patriotic railway directors in this country?

I am not quite sure who purchased them. Some, I think, have been sold.

Retired Officers (War Service)

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will now review the practice, under Army Order 324, 1919, and Article 2 (Pay Warrant), 1922, of reducing by 5½ per cent, the whole amount of pay of a major who was retired before the War with a fixed pension of £300 a year, had since served throughout the whole War, and had for the last three years been drawing an extra £150, making in all £450, the latter sum of £150 to be revised in accordance with the cost of living; and if he can say by what authority the 5½ per cent is taken off the fixed pension of £300 which was awarded as a result of services rendered before the War without reference to the cost of living?

The officer exercised his option of having his pre-War retired pay re-assessed under the conditions of the Royal Warrant of 13th September, 1919, with the result that it was increased from £300 to £450. In securing this benefit he accepted in their entirety the new conditions, one of which was that rates would be subject to variation with the cost of living I am unable to review this arrangement, the Authority for which is the Warrant to which I have referred.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that officers who retired from the Army before the War received pensions in the nature of deferred pay and these pensions were fixed and determined and were for services already rendered? Further, by what authority does any Department alter a fixed and permanent pension? Is it not a fact that the variable quantity is the £150, which varies with the cost of living?

In answer to the first question, I am aware of all these alterations, but the right hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying the Department has deprived this officer of money to which he was entitled. What the Department has done is to offer him the option of a new contract with a new and higher pension subject to certain provisions as regards deductions, and the officer voluntarily accepted the higher pension and I am not surprised, because he gains by it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this option was forced upon officers of the Army and that not one of them understood that the permanent pension fixed before the War was in any way to be varied?

No, I am not aware of that, and if the right hon. Gentleman has any evidence of it I shall be very glad to consider it, but, as I a minformed, this was an option and was not forced upon hut given to officers and they accepted it when it was for their benefit. In this case it was for his benefit because the officer got £450 a year instead of £300.

I beg to give notice that I will raise this on the Adjournment to-night.

Artillery Officers (Aeroplane Observation)

asked the Secretary of State for War what system is in force for training officers of the Royal Artillery in aeroplane observation duties; how many officers so trained are available for service; and whether the number available is adequate for the present Army establishment?

Officers of the Royal Artillery are seconded to the Royal Air Force for four years, and the number at present so seconded for training is 28. The whole system is under review in conjunction with the Air Ministry.

Supplementary Reserve

asked the Secretary of State for War what progress has been made in recruiting the Supplementary Reserve of the Regular Army?

The latest complete returns available, which are those for the week ending 6th December, show that the numbers enlisted up to that date were, Category B, 684 men; Category C, 2,790 men. Recruiting is proceeding steadily and satisfactorily.

Questions

Export of Armaments (Germany)

asked the Secretary of State for War, in view of Article 170 of the Versailles Treaty prohibiting the manufacture and export of arms, munitions, and war material of every kind, and cases having been brought to light without punishment by the German Courts, whether any action was taken in regard to the case of Zuckermeck, in Berlin, who was exporting armaments, chiefly machine guns, to Lithuania, and who was acquitted by the Assize Court of Charlottenburg on his counsel arguing with success that the export was not prohibited?

Yes, Sir, the Inter-Allied Commission of Control have taken the case up with the German Government and the matter is being pursued.

Scotland

Small Landholders Act, 1911

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware of the urgent necessity for legislation to amend the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, with a view to safeguarding the principle of fixity of tenure; and when such legislation is likely to be introduced?

According to my present information there does not appear to me to be necessity for such an amendment of the existing law, and I am therefore not prepared to give any undertaking to introduce such legislation.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this legislation has been promised by two successive Governments, that there is urgent need, and that there are cases of eviction pending now in the Highlands?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor told this House that he had a Bill drafted in order to remove the difficulty?

I have very carefully considered this question, but as at present advised I see no necessity for this legislation.

Is it not equally of importance to safeguard the principle of freedom of sale and contract?

Land Court Report, 1923

asked the Secretary for Scotland the reason for the delay in the issue of the Land Court Report for the year 1923; whether he is aware that particular interest is taken in the Highlands of Scotland in certain cases which came before the Land Court during that year; and when this Report is likely to be published?

The delay has been due to discussions as to the scope of the Report and of the Appendices respectively. I hope that the Report will be available next week.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shape in which this Report was issued last year was useless? A paper of this size (1922 Report ), which should contain information relating to thousands of people in Scotland, is useless for the purpose for which it was intended.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this year we shall have the. Report without its being curtailed?

I understand that the Report will be very full, so far as the Report itself is concerned.

I think the hon. Gentleman had better wait and see the Report. If he then considers it is unsatisfactory, I will look into the matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last year the Report was curtailed by the Stationery Office in London? Can he say what authority the Stationery Office has, or what knowledge it has of circumstances pertaining to the Highlands?

I understand that the question of curtailment refers to the appendices and not to the Report. The appendices might be curtailed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Report is useless without them?

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that we shall get the full Report this year?

If hon. Members will wait and see the Report, I think they will see that it is a very full Report.

asked the Secretary for Scotland when the Report of the Land Court for 1923 will be issued; and whether the Report will be printed in full?

I hope that the Report will be available next week. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

Fishing Gear (Grants)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that large numbers of fishermen are unable to participate in the revived prosperity of the industry owing to their inability to replace their lost and damaged gear, and that the scheme for the employment of a credit of £150,000, voted by Parliament last Session for this purpose, has proved unworkable; and whether he proposes to amend the provisions of this scheme?

In view of the revived prosperity in the herring fishing industry I am making inquiry as to the needs with regard to assistance for the provision of nets. I am not aware that the conditions of the existing scheme have rendered it unworkable, and I am not prepared in present circumstances to promise that more favourable conditions will be adopted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the fishermen who need it most find that this grant given by Parliament last year is totally out of their reach, and will he take steps to bring the grant within the reach of the poorer fishermen who need it most?

Can the right hon. Gentleman state the actual amount which has been paid this year by way of grant?

No, but I will inquire. With regard to the previous question, I may say that the Regulations make very careful provision, particularly for the younger fishermen and those who are unable to get nets. I am looking into the whole matter.

If the right hon. Gentleman considers it necessary for these men to receive assistance for this purpose, does he not think it might be possible for the English fishermen to be assisted?

Agricultural Education

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he proposes to take action with reference to the Report of the Committee on Agricultural Education in Scotland; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?

I am considering the recommendations contained in the Report referred to, but am not yet in a position to say what action will be taken on the Report.

Clydebank Rent Dispute

asked the Lord Advocate if his attention has been called to a circular widely circulated in Scotland which alleges that the law is being openly and flagrantly defied in the Clydebank area, and which proceeds to ask for money on the basis of that assertion; and if he will take steps to prevent the further distribution of the circular, in view of the recent decision of the Sheriff-Substitute of Dumbarton that property owners in Clydebank have been collecting as rent money to which they were not legally entitled?

I have considered the circular referred to by the hon. Member, and I do not find therein anything to justify my taking action.

Questions

Coal Mines (Shot Firing)

asked the Secretary for Mines what he intends to do in respect of shot firing in coal mines, in view of the Report issued by the Mines Department on the explosion at Birley Colliery, Beighton, Yorkshire, on 23rd February, 1924, which points out the extreme danger of shot firing in proximity to breaks?

Further stringent precautions in respect of shot firing in mines where explosions may occur have already been made obligatory by the Explosives in Coal Mines Order of the 1st September last. This Order deals specifically with shot firing in proximity to breaks.

Members of Parliament (Oath of Allegiance)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that considerable Parliamentary time and expense would be saved if Members of Parliament on election could each take the oath of allegiance before the returning officer for their district; and will he consider the desirability of making some such change, in the interests of public economy, before the next General Election?

I understand that the arrangements made this time for the swearing-in of Members have worked, as hitherto, most satisfactorily, and were carried out with the minimum of inconvenience to Members themselves. I am not, therefore, prepared to consider the hon. Member's proposal.

United States (Aemy of Occupation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the demand of the American Government for a share in reparations in respect of the American Army of Occupation has now been put at the definite figure of £53,100,000; and what is the corresponding figure demanded by this country?

The net amount due to the United States Government for the costs of its Army of Occupation, reckoned in accordance with Article 1 of the Agreement of May, 1923 (Command Paper 1973), is estimated at 1,047,726,332 gold marks (say, £52,400,000), but has not yet been definitely determined. I may add that His Majesty's Government in no way dispute this claim. The net amount claimed by this country for its Army of Occupation (viz., 947 million gold marks, representing a sterling expenditure of about £57 millions) forms a prior charge on British receipts under the Treaty of Versailles which are more than sufficient to cover it.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether America has yet been paid anything in respect of receipts from reparations for the Army of Occupation?

Yes. There are some other questions which are now being discussed with the Government.

Richborough (Sale)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the expert's report on Rich-borough; and whether a definite decision can be come to so that work there may be put in hand this winter?

It has been provisionally agreed that the Government property at Rich-borough shall be sold to the firm of Messrs. Pearson & Dorman Long, Limited, subject to agreement as to details and to the passing of a Bill in Parliament, of which formal notice has been given in the Press. Subject to the above His Majesty's Government should not be responsible for Richborough after 1st February next, except as regards certain surplus material, stores, etc.

Are the Government yet in a position to make known the terms of the sale?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many times this particular property has been sold by the Disposal Board?

Is it not a fact that the property has been sold, but that the Disposal Board have failed to get any financial guarantee, and on that account the sale has failed two or three times? How, then, can the right hon. Gentleman say that it has not been sold?

There was a proposal for sale, but, unfortunately, it did not go through owing to a technicality on title.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when drawing up his Budget, he will con- sider the entire removal of the disqualification for thrift in regard to old age pensions?

I can add nothing at present to the indication of the Government's policy in regard to old age pensions contained in the King's Speech.

Shipping Profits Taxation, United States

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the United States of America is acting on the provision as to relief from double taxation on the profits from the business of shipping?

An agreement on this matter has been reached with the United States, and I would invite my hon. Friend's attention to the Order in Council, dated 7th November, 1924, entitled the Relief from Double Income Tax on Shipping Profits (United States of America) Declaration, 1924, which is now lying upon the Table.

Motor Caps (Imports)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will

Month.

Year.

Touring Cars (including Cabs) Dutiable until 1st August, 1924.

Commercial Vehicles Exempt from Duty.

Chassis for Motor Cars.

Exempt from Duty.

Dutiable until 1st August, 1924.

No.

£

No.

£

No.

£

No.

£

May,

1923

2,380

393,029

37

6,292

511

93,167

484

84,204

May,

1924

1,202

192,736

143

23,765

576

70,027

695

91,983

June,

1923

1,597

242,137

42

9,092

205

35,277

1,339

133,121

June,

1924

794

118,689

184

21,433

300

51,456

283

39,206

July,

1923

615

92,276

105

14,989

226

40,251

289

44,185

July,

1924

851

130,000

116

16,034

248

46,795

415

59,143

August,

1923

854

127,796

44

10,368

318

27,167

357

49,634

August,

1924

1,288

354,275

88

12,440

958

153,536

٭

٭

September,

1923

475

93,751

61

13,417

244

36,010

381

69,626

September,

1924

1,526

368,025

78

9,385

1,094

169,507

٭

٭

October,

1923

1,112

225,986

46

9,326

411

47,147

653

84,167

October,

1924

1,394

352,824

58

6,926

717

120,898

٭

٭

Totals for 6 months

1923

7,033

1,174,975

335

63,484

1,915

279,019

3,503

464,937

1924

7,055

1,516,549

667

89,983

3,893

612,219

l,393†

190,332†

٭ See previous column. previous column.

† Totals for three months only in 1924.

The McKenna Duties continued to be levied until 1st August last. As regards loss of revenue, I can only point out that the removal of the duty on motor cars and motor cycles, parts and accessories, was

give the numbers of motor cars imported into this country and their values for the six months subsequent to the last Budget, and the corresponding figures for the period of the previous year; and can he give the estimated loss of duties during the period on these cars due to the removal of the McKenna Duties?

As the answer contains many figures in tabular form, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he proposes to reconsider the institution of these duties?

I do not think that that arises out of the question on the Paper.

Following is the answer:

The numbers and values of motor cars and chassis registered as imported into Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the six months May to October, 1923, and the corresponding period in 1924, were as follows:

estimated at the time of the Budget to cost £1,400,000 in the current financial year, and I see no reason at present for revising that estimate.

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated net income assessed to Income Tax on which tax became due for payment on or after 1st January, 1924, and also that on which tax will become payable on or after 1st January, 1925?

I regret that in view of the several methods by which Income Tax is collected, e.g ., partly by collection at the source, involving numerous repayments at a later date, partly by collection in one sum, and partly in two or four instalments, etc., it is not possible to furnish the information asked for. The provisional estimate of the taxable income, that is, the income which remains after deduction of various personal and other reliefs and upon which the half standard and full standard rates of Income Tax are finally payable, for the year 1923–24, is £1,300,000,000; the greater part of the tax on this taxable income became due for payment on the 1st January, 1924. I am not yet in a position to make a similar estimate for the year 1924–25.

Irish Free State (Compensation Payments)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any arrangement or understanding was arrived at between the late Government and the Government of the Irish Free State as a result of the visit to Ireland of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies in July last, under which the British Treasury should pay, or sanction the payment of, money from Imperial funds to the Irish Free State, the principal or any part of which is to be applied for the purpose of paying compensation to those recently in arms against His Majesty's forces in Ireland, or their supporters; and whether the matter will be submitted to the House before any further action is taken?

In reply to the first part of the question, I understand that the subject of compensation was not mentioned at the Conference which took place in Dublin in August last between the right hon. Member for Derby and the right hon. Member for Burnley and Ministers of the Free State Government.

As the right hon. Member for Derby informed the House in reply to a question addressed to him by the hon. Member for Kirkdale on 2nd October last, His Majesty's Government is under obligation, under the heads of working arrangements for implementing the Treaty and the agreed terms of reference to the Compensation (Ireland) Commission, to refund to the Government of the Irish Free State so much of the sums paid by that Government in respect of the awards of the Commission as arises out of damage done by servants of the Crown, and is also under an obligation to pay compensation in respect of matters arising in the area which is now the Irish Free State such as would have given ground for the award of compensation by a War Compensation Court under the Indemnity Act, 1920.

There has further been a difference of opinion between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the Irish Free State as to the meaning and scope of the terms of reference to the Compensation (Ireland) Commission. In these circumstances His Majesty's Government, after discussions extending over a considerable period, provisionally agreed in August last with the Government of the Irish Free State to pay to that Government the sum of £900,000 in full and final discharge of all outstanding liabilities or claims against His Majesty's Government for compensation in respect of property in Ireland, including all outstanding and admitted liabilities under the two headings referred to above and a contribution towards meeting the claims which, as was explained by the right hon. Member, were in dispute; and this agreement has since been confirmed on both sides. The payments to be made under this arrangement represent a substantial saving on the provision already voted by Parliament for the purposes stated above and as at present advised I do not consider that any Supplementary Estimate will be necessary.

Ottoman Debt

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the position of the council of administration of the Ottoman Debt which was set up in 1881 by the Decree of Muharrem, and if any provision has been made for the bondholders?

The Turkish Government have deprived the council of the administration and collection of the revenues assigned to it by the Decree of Muharrem and Decree-Annex of 1903, and have reduced the budget of the council. No provision has been made in the Turkish Budget for the bondholders; the covering law provides that payments in respect of the Republic's share in the foreign debt of the Ottoman Empire are deferred until the distribution of the debt shall have been effected.

German Reparation (Recovery) Act

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount collected under the Reparation (Recovery) Act since 1st April, 1924, and the amount for the same period of 1923?

The amount collected in the period 1st April, 1924, to 10th December, 1924, was £3,551,000. In the same period in 1923 the amount collected was £6,329,000.

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the net balance on account of Excess Profits Duty in the present financial year; and what was the amount anticipated for the year 1924–25 in the last Budget?

The gross receipts and repayments respectively of Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) from the 1st April to the 6th December, 1924, were £9,665,000 and £7,800,000, leaving a credit balance on that period of £1,865,000, which is approximately equal to the debit balance of £1,867,539 11s. 4d. brought forward from the preceding financial year. The Budget Estimate for the year 1924–25 was £8,000,000.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he will be able to get the total amount outstanding under this head between now and the end of the financial year?

I could not say whether it would all be brought in the present year or how much of it will be.

Brewery Companies (Profits)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the aggregate profits of the brewing companies in the United Kingdom for the year 1913–14, and the latest year for which complete figures are available?

The estimated profits of brewing concerns in the United Kingdom for the years 1913–14 and 1922–23 (the latest year for which figures are available) are as follow:—

Will the right hon. Gentleman remember those profits when the poor brewers come to him and ask to be let off taxes?

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the Committee on Food Prices to look into the question of the price of beer and profits?

Do those profits include the profits made on ginger beer and other mild drinks?

As a debate appears to be arising on this subject, I do not think I had better add anything.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether the Committee on Food Prices will look into the question of the profits on beer?

It has always been a matter of contention on the benches opposite whether beer is food.

British National Opera Company

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the interests of musical art in this country, His Majesty's Government would consider the possibility of making a grant or, alternatively, of affording special and substantial relief from taxation to the British National Opera Company?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the past year we have been taxing this company on their losses, and is he also aware that practically every European Government, including the Government of Russia, however bankrupt, considers it good policy to subsidise opera?

Arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, may I ask whether he is aware that relief is already given in this country in the case of quite a number of musical and entertainment enterprises not conducted primarily for private, profit, and that similar relief is given in foreign countries?

I think I am unable to accept the suggestion made, at the present time, but I would be quite ready to receive any representations that may be put forward from responsible quarters. As to whether I would be able to meet those representations in any satisfactory manner is quite another question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman attempt to obtain information as to what is being done in other and much poorer lands?

Customs and Excise Employes (War Service)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Customs and Excise employ és employed in the Civil Service who were called up for active service during the great War; whether he is aware that, although they were promised that they should receive full civil pay whilst on active service, naval separation allowance allowed by the Admiralty during the period of service was afterwards deducted from civil pay, which resulted in no benefit being obtained by them; and whether he will consider whether the claims of these employ és can be granted?

I have no knowledge of the claims in question and, so far as I am aware, Customs and Excise employ és who were called up for active service during the Great War were promised civil pay less Navy or Army pay and allowances, and not full civil pay.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter if I send him details?

I have dealt with it in my answer to the question. The circular of 11th August, 1914, deals with this matter, and these are the exact words:

"Civil pay less Navy or Army pay and allowances."

Closing Down of Collieries, Monmouthshire

asked the Secretary for Mines if he is aware that the Ebbw Vale Steel and Iron Company have closed down three mines at Abertillery and four mines at Blaina, Monmouthshire, and that the shutting down of the collieries has caused great poverty in these areas; and whether there is any obstacle to the reopening of these mines which his Department can remove?

I am aware of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers. I fear that there is not any obstacle to the reopening of these mines which it is within my power to remove. I understand, however, that the Beynon pit has already re-started, and that the Powell's Tillery pits are likely to reopen very shortly.

As the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been so successful with regard to Abertillery, will he try his hand in regard to the mines at Blaina?

If there is anything I can do to get these pits open, I shall be glad to do it.

Transport

Motor Cycles (Pillion Riding)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce legislation prohibiting the practice of pillion riding on motor bicycles?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 11th December to the hon. Member for Newcastle North (Sir Grattan Doyle), of which I am sending him a copy.

Would it be possible for local authorities to pass bye-laws preventing this method of travel in their particular areas?

No, Sir. I have not looked up the point, but I imagine it would be quite illegal.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware, as a matter of practical motor cycling, that it is very much safer to have an extra person on the back wheel, because there is much less danger of side slips?

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that coroners all over the country have commented on the danger of this practice?

Excessive Road Loads

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce regulations preventing excessive loads being carried over the roads by stipulating a maximum weight which shall be carried, such weight to include the weight of the vehicle itself?

The maximum weight which a 'heavy motor car or a locomotive or a trailer may carry (including the weight of the vehicle itself) is already limited by Acts of Parliament and by Orders made thereunder.

Vehicles (Rear Lights)

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the ever recurring accidents, he will bring forward legislation making it compulsory for all vehicles to carry red lamps or red reflectors both for the safety and protection of all road users?

As was indicated in the Gracious Speech from the Throne, the Government propose, when a suitable opportunity occurs, to introduce a Bill dealing generally with the regulation or road vehicles, including the lighting or vehicles.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the cyclists of this country strongly object to being forced to use back lights when pedestrians are not forced to use them?

May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that we are not dealing with cyclists but with vehicles?

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman willing to receive a deputation from accredited cyclists before he drafts his Bill, particularly the Clause dealing with rear lights on bicycles?

When I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, I received two deputations from cyclists. I shall be very glad to meet them again it any useful purpose can be served. But in view of the fact that I have met them twice, I think we might consider the question privately.

Questions

Unemployment (Proposed Docks, Tees-Side)

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the serious unemployment on Tees-side and in Cleveland and the gloomy industrial outlook in this area, he is prepared to recommend that the preliminary work in connection with the proposed docks on the south bank of the Tees be commenced this winter with Government help; and whether he would be willing to meet a deputation from the two local authorities in whose area the docks will eventually be created to discuss how far they can co-operate in having such preliminary work carried out?

I understand that the hon. Member refers to a scheme which is under consideration by the Tees Conservancy and the London and North Eastern Railway Company, who advise me that, owing to technical difficulties which have been experienced on the site, it has been found necessary to revise the plans. Until the result of their investigations are available they are not able to make any statement as to the future development of the scheme, and that any steps taken now would be premature. Although I am always ready to discuss matters with deputations from local authorities, it would appear that it would be more satisfactory if the local authorities communicated direct with the conservancy, at any rate, in the first instance.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman bring pressure to bear on the railway company in view of the great depression in this district?

I certainly will communicate again with the railway company, but I have only persuasive powers.

Is it not a fact that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has power to intervene before the Railway Rates Tribunal and make out a case for further facilities in public travel?

Motor Omnibuses (Fire Risks)

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to protect the public from the danger of fire in motor omnibuses; whether he will, by regulation, require the petrol tanks of these vehicles to be placed outside the saloons as is done in London; and whether, pending this change, he will prohibit the use of naked acetylene gas lights for illumination inside the saloons?

The points referred to in the first and second parts of the question have been under consideration by the Departmental Committee on the Licensing and Regulation of Hackney Vehicles, from whom I understand that an Interim Report may be expected shortly. On receiving this Report I will immediately consider the extent to which, and the manner in which, effect should be given to their recommendations. With regard to the last part of the question, it would appear to be open to licensing authorities to consider whether licences can properly be granted in respect of public service vehicles with a lighting installation of the nature indicated.

Are we to understand that the Minister has only power to enforce lighting regulations in the case of vehicles licensed to carry passengers?

Without having looked up the point, I believe that is so under the present law.

London and North Eastern Railway Company (Electrification Proposals)

asked the Minister of Transport if he has any information as to whether the London and North Eastern Railway Company intends to proceed further with their proposals to electrify the northern suburban line?

I am informed that the company has not yet reached a decision in the matter.

Is there any reason why the Metropolitan Railway Company cannot proceed with that extension?

It is not an extension. It is a question of electrifying the old Great Northern Railway.

Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recollect that in the Parliament before last, when he occupied an official position in the Ministry, a definite promise was made in this House by one of the directors of the London and North Eastern Railway Company that this electrification would be proceeded with immediately?

Yes, but I also recollect that during the nine months in which the present Opposition sat on these benches, they were not able to do anything in the matter.

Is it not a fact that a few months ago it was publicly announced that tenders had been invited for this work? Are we to take it now that the company has not decided whether they are going to do it or not?

I quite sympathise with the hon. Member in his desire. I am only giving him the gist of the answer I have received from the company, namely, that they have not arrived at any decision in the matter.

When a railway company comes before the House to get powers to do a certain thing is the Minister of Transport in a position to force them to carry out those powers? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Of course not.

Is the Minister aware of the very great state of overcrowding in the mornings and evenings in the suburban trains on these lines especially in third-class carriages?

London Traffic Act (Advisory Committee)

asked the Minister of Transport whether the Advisory Committee under the London Traffic Act has been set up; and if he can give the names of the members?

As the hon. Member is well aware, the London Traffic Act left the election of certain members of the Committee to Joint Committees of various local bodies. One af the Joint Committees has not yet appointed a member, and [thought it desirable, if possible, to announce the names of the Committee as a whole.

Is the Minister in a position yet to announce the name of the Chairman?

Manor Way, North Woolwich

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the continuous and irritating delays, with the consequent loss both to vehicular and pedestrian traffic, which occurs at Manor Way, North Woolwich, owing to the frequent raising of the swing bridges; and whether he will institute an inquiry, under the provisions of the London Traffic Act, to ascertain what improvements can be obtained for the travelling public in this part of London?

The question of the traffic conditions on Manor Way and on the other approaches to the Woolwich Ferry will come before the London Traffic Advisory Committee for early consideration.

Post Office

Penny Postage

asked the Postmaster-General at what date Imperial penny postage was reintroduced by the Dominion of New Zealand; and what Reports, if any, are available as to the effects of this postal reduction?

Imperial penny postage was reintroduced in New Zealand on 1st October, 1923. It appears from the Report of the New Zealand Post Office for the year ending 31st March, 1924, that the postal revenue for that year showed a drop of about 17 per cent, as compared with 1922–23. But owing to the numerous changes in tariff which were made during both years, it is impossible to draw any reliable inference as to the financial effect of penny postage taken by itself. The New Zealand Post Office estimate the present volume of letter traffic at 13 per cent, above what it was before the last reduction, and after making due allowance for normal growth, I think it may legitimately be inferred that a substantial part of the increase in the volume of traffic was due to the reduction in rate.

Is it not agreed by the New Zealand authorities that the loss was a great deal lighter than was anticipated, and that it has been amply made up in other directions?

No, I think it is a little difficult to say that, because it is difficult to compare changes in tariffs owing, partly, to the fact that there was an increase in telephone rates at the same time as a decrease in the postal rates, and partly because we have not yet got the commercial accounts. The accounts which we have are for cash payments only.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the strong feeling among all classes of the community in favour of a return to the normal system of 1d. postage; if it is his intention to propose the revival of that system; and when he proposes to make a statement on the subject?

I am aware that there is a strong desire for the restoration of penny postage for letters; and, as I informed a deputation from the Association of British Chambers of Commerce last week, the matter will be reviewed by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he is able to survey the whole field of national finance in connection with the Budget for next year.

Will the hon. Gentleman also consider the question of re-introducing the halfpenny postcard?

Can the hon. Member tell us a single firm of private traders that has rendered any service to the Post Office that is doing it at the 1914 rates?

Revenue and Expenditure

78 and 79.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) the revenue and expenditure, including interest and depreciation, on the Post Office wireless stations at Cairo, Leafield, Northolt, and Stone-haven, for the first six months of the current financial year;

(2) the estimated surplus or deficit on the postal, telephone, telegraph, and wireless services for the first six months of the current financial year?

The financial results of Post Office services for a part of the year only are apt to be misleading, owing to the seasonal fluctuation in business and the irregular incidence of certain charges. I therefore think it undesirable to publish returns for incomplete periods. The full year's accounts are presented to Parliament annually.

Is it not a fact that all the wireless stations have been run at a loss, whereas there is a profit of some 50 per cent, on every letter sent out for a 1½d. stamp?

Ex-Service Men

asked the Postmaster-General why ex-service men who served several years during the recent War are not granted the same facilities as professional soldiers to become permanent members of the Post Office staff when vacancies arise?

Professional ex-service men are given preference for permanent Post Office employment over ex-service men who served only during the War in view of the long-standing arrangement under which a definite proportion of postmen's vacancies has been reserved for professional ex-service men. The prospect of obtaining an appointment in the Post Office was one of the advantages offered on enlistment.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that the present Regulation applies unfairly to the ex-service man who is partially incapacitated from following his normal employment, since he can become an auxiliary postman and prove that he can do the work successfully and yet not be privileged to apply on the same terms as a professional ex-service man?

I do not think that that exactly arises in this connection, but may I repeat what I said, that the State, after all, when it enlisted these men into the Army, held out certain inducements, of which this was one.

Is it not also perfectly true that the nation also held out certain promises to men who served in the last War, and are they not entitled to equivalent treatment with professional ex-soldiers?

81 and 82.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) whether he will consider the policy of substituting disabled ex-service men with pensions insufficient to maintain them or unemployed persons who may be fitted for that class of work now performed in the Post Office by part-time employés, but who in addition enjoy full-time employment outside;

(2) whether he will submit a return to the House showing the number of Post Office employés engaged for part-time employment who are already in full-time employment outside?

For many years it has been the practice of the Post Office to recruit its part-time staff as far as possible from men who have pensions or who have other part-time employment which, with their Post Office employment, will give them a fair but not more than a fair day's work. Persons in full-time employment are not engaged unless they are the only suitable candidates available. I have no figures showing the number of part-time Post Office servants who are already in full-time employment outside, and to obtain them would entail very considerable labour.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that recently I gave information to the Department of a particular case of a part-time employé on full-time employment outside, and yet, when there are a million people unemployed, persons of this description are still employed in a part-time capacity in the Post Office?

I have not seen the particular case to which the hon. Member refers, but if he will give me the name, I will have it looked into.

Postal Facilities, Carshalton

asked the Postmaster-General if he has received complaints as to the unsatisfactory postal and telegraphic facilities in Carshalton; and whether he will provide adequate and convenient services for the increasing needs of the neighbourhood?

I have received representations from the Carshalton Urban District Council. As explained in a letter sent to the council on the 27th ultimo, the postal and telegraph arrangements have recently been revised. The increasing needs of the neighbourhood are being kept specially under observation with the view of making such further adjustments in the service as may appear desirable and practicable.

Savings Bank, Scotland

asked the Postmaster-General the amount paid into, the amount due to depositors, the amount of Government securities, and the number of banking accounts in the Post Office Savings Bank, Scotland, in the years 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922 and 1924?

I will have the desired figures circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT as far as they are available.

Following are the figures:

Figures respecting Government Securities held through the Post Office in the names of Scottish holders as distinct, from other holders are not available.

War Bonus Claims

asked the Postmaster-General how many claims have been settled since the war bonus test actions were decided in favour of petitioners Grimwood and Waller in the King's Bench Division on 18th July, 1924, which were intended to cover the claims of all Post Office servants who enlisted and served in His Majesty's Forces under conditions similar to those upon which judgment was given for the petitioners; and when it is anticipated that a decision will be reached on the remaining claims which have been received by his department under those judgments to date.

I must refer the Noble Lady to the reply given on the 11th instant to the question asked by the hon. Member for Leyton East (Mr. E. Alexander), and of which I will send her a copy.

Questions

Widows' Pensions (Time Limit)

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that the widow of the late Private Thomas Crew, of the 2nd Monmouthshire Regiment, who resides at Wood Street, Cwmcarn, Mon., has been left with seven children and is not eligible for pension because her husband's death took place more than seven years after the termination of his active service in the War; and will he have this case reconsidered?

I find that the ex-soldier referred to was discharged in 1915 with defective eyesight, but ceased to draw pension in 1919, and that his death in the present year was due to a general malady of a totally different kind. I regret that the widow in this case is not eligible for pension under the terms of Pension Warrants.

Albanian Frontier (Armed Bands)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is a fact that armed bands organised in Jugoslav territory have crossed the Albanian frontier; and whether His Majesty's Minister at Belgrade will be instructed to make representations to the Jugo-Slav Government pointing out the danger of allowing the passage of armed bands into Albania?

I understand from Albanian sources that the partisans of the late Albanian Prime Minister who had, since the last revolution, taken refuge in Jugo-Slavia, crossed the frontier on 13th December, and have now been joined by certain of the tribes in Northern Albania. His Majesty's Minister at Belgrade was instructed on 8th December to call the attention of the Serb-Croat-Slovene Government to the possible dangers of the situation which was then developing, and received assurances from Monsieur Pasich that orders would be sent to the frontier authorities not to countenance any preparations for invasion. Animated by their customary desire to reduce to a minimum such causes of friction as might exist, His Majesty's Government also addressed representations at the same time to the Albanian and Bulgarian Governments, urging them, in view of the delicacy of the general situation, to exercise particular vigilance in preventing band activity on their frontiers.

May I ask whether His Majesty's Government will bring to the notice of the Council of the League of Nations the danger of a breach of the peace which may arise from the situation?

House of Commons (Ventilation)

May I ask your assistance, Mr. Speaker, in a matter which I believe will conduce, to the comfort and health of Members? At 8 o'clock this morning this Chamber was like a hothouse, very stuffy, and no windows were open, either in the Chamber itself or in the lobbies or corridors, and on another hon. Member and myself asking the attendants, they said they had no authority to open the windows and had to ask special permission. I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, with your authority over this House while in Session, that you should give instructions on fine mornings like to-day—[ Laughter ]—it was quite fine between 7 and 9— that every available window in this House should be opened for two or three hours. It would cost nothing, and I put it to you that this is an easy way, and I crave your help.

I endorse what the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has said. I was here with him at an unusually early hour, and I heartily agree that the atmosphere of this Chamber was absolutely stifling and that not a window in the whole place was open until they were opened by myself and my distinguished colleague.

The hon. Members do not seem to have suffered much in their activity, but the question referred to does not lie in my province. I will, however, ask the First Commissioner of Works to investigate the hon. Members' complaints.

Business of the House

Ordered,

"That the Proceedings on the Irish Free State Land Purchase (Loan Guarantee) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister .]

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the County of London Electric Supply Company, Limited, with reference to the supply of electricity in the county of Essex; and for other purposes." [County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further and better provision with respect to the supply of electricity in the administrative county of London; to confer further powers upon certain of the companies supplying electricity within the said county; and for other purposes." [London Electricity Supply (No. 1) Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further provision with respect to the supply of electricity in London; and for other purposes." [London Electricity Supply (No. 2) Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the limits of supply of and confer further powers on the North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company; and for other purposes." [North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Banff Town Hall." [Banff Town Hall Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords. ]

Suspended Bills

Standing Order of 9th October, 1924, relating to Private Bills, read.

County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [ Lords] (suspended ),

London Electricity Supply (No. 1) Bill [ Lords] (suspended ),

London Electricity Supply (No. 2) Bill [ Lords ] ( suspended ),

North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company Bill [ Lords ] ( suspended ),

Read the First time; to be read a Second time.

BANFF TOWN HALL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords],

Ordered (under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered Tomorrow.

Orders of the Day

King's Speech

Debate on the Address

[FOURTH DAY.]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:

Most Gracious Sovereign,

We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[ Mr. Ellis .]

Question again proposed.

Housing

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words:

When I addressed the House on this question from the other side of the floor, I appealed to the House and to the country that, on the housing problem, the party guns should cease to fire. To my mind, housing reform is the Bed Cross work of the class struggle, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman who has-succeeded me at the Ministry of Health and whom I congratulate on his return to the post he loves and fills so well, that, if my assurance has any value, I can promise him that, if he indicates in a vigorous and comprehensive housing programme that he intends to use the unparalleled opportunity political fortune has given him, then he will receive from this House only the most benevolent criticism. But I must confess that, in my opinion, the Government have made a bad beginning. There was, first of all, that unfortunate speech by the present Home Secretary, delivered, I believe, at the Carlton Club on the 3rd November, in which he went out of his way to threaten the building-trade operatives that, with or without their cooperation, he intended to insist on several thousands of men being added to the personnel of that industry.

Whatever may be said on behalf of that speech as a piece of party bravado, it must have been embarrassing to the Minister of Health, because just at that particular moment the leaders of the building trade operatives were engaged in loyally, industriously and enthusiastically, as I believe my right hon. Friend will agree, in setting up the machinery for augmenting the building trade labour in accordance with the promise that they made to Parliament when I was at the Ministry of Health. And it would be well, I think, if hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite would remember that, although they are in a majority in this House, they are still in a minority in the industrial field. I must say that the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health himself was not entirely what one would have hoped for. He spoke about allowing the Act of 1924 to hang about the premises, or run, or play about the premises until it hanged itself. I suppose he anticipates for it a sort of suicide through starvation. I am not quite sure that we may take that as indicative of what may happen more generally under the Conservative Government, but I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the provisions of the 1924 Act are the only basis on which he can negotiate for that friendly co-operation in the augmentation of labour and of capital that is essential to the provision of the houses that we require. It will not be an inducement in any way to the people to whom he is addressing his encouraging remarks, that he should be going to the local authorities, with all the prestige of his position, encouraging them not to operate this Act, but to allow it to fall into desuetude. It may be easier to destroy the Act in that way, than to have to use his powerful fingers in strangling it in a more direct manner.

4.0 P.M.

Then we have that paragraph in the King's Speech in which we are told that the encouragement of private enterprise and occupying ownership is essential to the solution of the housing problem. If that paragraph and those words stood by themselves, and were read by themselves, I might have difficulty in raising the faintest objection. They might mean that private enterprise and occupying ownership were an essential contribution to the solution of the housing problem, but when we read those words in conjunction with the speeches to which I have referred, and when we remember other public pronouncements of the right hon. Gentleman, and are familiar with his well-known views, then we are entitled to regard this reference in the King's Speech as meaning that the Government intend to rely mainly, and almost entirely, on private enterprise and on occupying ownership for finding a way out of our housing difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman himself has never left the House in any doubt as to his view regarding private enterprise. In his mind, private enterprise has been elevated to the position of a deity capable of curing all our social and industrial evils. May I beg of him, at the outset of his present administration, to allow the light of reason to play for a few moments on his simple faith? May I remind him that his own colleagues in the Cabinet do not place private enterprise so high? When they were faced with the rise in the cost of foodstuffs and its effect on the prospect of British industry, they began to doubt the divinity of private enterprise, and, although it is quite true that they have not gone the length of dethroning it, they are asking it to take off its boots in order to examine its feet. There is at least one thing which I admit private enterprise can do much better than public enterprise. Private enterprise can create slums.

All those foul festering places in the centres of our great cities and towns, which all sections of the House deplore, are part of its wonderful work. All those hovels in mining villages and in agricultural areas, of which we continually hear so much, are part of the heritage that the nation has received from the private enterprise of the past. With all due respect to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle), who interjected that remark, I submit that in producing slums public enterprise is no match for private enterprise. Socialism is no use as a slum maker. Socialism may be atheism, as we are told at election time, but Socialism builds no slums in Birmingham. It is only when we want to remove slums that we send for Socialism. Private enterprise can do nothing to remove the slums. When slums are to be removed, we forget all those wicked things about private enterprise and Socialism which we say on other occasions. Socialism then becomes a purifying and elevating angel, but, unfortunately, the highest position that our materialistic minds will allow us to obtain for it is to make it the scavenger of private enterprise. May I remind the House that slums are not a peculiar type of dwelling-house, but are merely the worn-out ordinary houses provided by private enterprise.

I am never surprised, when we get down to a discussion of the social conditions of the people of this country, that hon. Members opposite should try to divert our minds to the conditions at the ends of the earth. Eight from the earliest days of intelligence, that is where they have wanted to keep the eyes of the public. May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that nearly all the working-class houses of this country are potential slums. If you use them sufficiently long, they get into a state in which we are entitled to place them in the category of slum dwellings. It is interesting that we should remember, at this stage in our dealings with housing reform, the extent to which we may expect the slum property to grow within the next 10 or 20 years. If I am right in assuming that the slums are but the ordinary houses, and that public enterprise in removing them will be acting as the scavenger of private enterprise, then we have to deal with these slums, and they will come into the market at a rate at which the ordinary dwelling-house decays. I do not know how many working-class houses we have in this country, but probably I should be justified in putting the number somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5,000,000 or 6,000,000. Giving these houses an expectation of life of 100 years, then we may expect them to come into slumdom in the future at the rate of 50,000 or 60,000 a year.

It is quite true that up till now we have been saved the necessity of dealing with them in such numerical strength owing to the fact that a large proportion of the existing dwellings were erected less than 100 years ago, during the rapidly developing industrial period of this country. But when I tell you that in the year which has just closed we only approved, under slum clearance schemes in England and Wales, 1,015 houses—not completed, but only approved—you will be able to judge for yourselves the direction in which we are drifting and the problem which is mounting up. One thousand and fifteen houses is not more than 2 per cent, of the houses which, on an average, are likely to come into slumdom during the next 10, 20, or 30 years. May I, just before leaving that point, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that when he sets out to deal with the slum problem, as he has promised us, he will at least see that his friends, the private enterprisers, do not make a profit out of the transaction. If they are going to leave the dwelling-houses of this country in the hands of private enterprise during their profit-making period, the public are entitled, at least, to see that when these things have been squeezed dry of profit the owners shall not during the funeral service be allowed to put their hands into the public purse.

I now turn for a moment to the question of building cost and ask the House and the country to form some judgment as to what assistance we are likely to get from private enterprise there. I do not think that I am exaggerating in the slightest when I say that, even in controlling building costs—something that is essential, it is generally admitted, to the solution of the housing problem—private enterprise is almost absolutely useless. During the Election, when it was difficult for us to overtake many things that were put in circulation, not merely by Members opposite but also by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, a, statement was circulated that during my period of office at the Ministry of Health the cost of building houses went up by leaps and bounds. There is little or no foundation for that statement. When I went to the Ministry of Health in January, 1924, the cost of building a non-parlour house was £386. When I left the Ministry of Health, practically in August, 1924, the cost was £397, or only £ll more. I regret to say that during the months of September and October, when the political clouds began to gather, and when my exit from office appeared a pleasant expectation to the private enterprisers who control the delivery of houses to the people of this country, the cost of buiding began, unfortunately, to rise rapidly, and to-day, instead of the cost of a non-parlour house being within £ll of the figure at which I found it in January, 1924, it stands at £64 more. It would be a relief to know that it was going to stop there, but, under the benevolent supervision of the people who tell us that they intend to rely on private enterprise to take us out of our difficulties, we may expect private enterprise will make the most of its opportunities and make hay while the sun shines.

It is interesting to analyse that £64 and see how it is made up. The figures I am quoting have been generously supplied to me by the Ministry of Health. At the outset, wages, in the view of the right hon. Gentleman, account for no more than £10 12s. The cost of building materials has gone up by no less than £15 per small house. I hear an interjection "Wages." The £15 is independent of any increase that took place in wages. The £10 12s. is wages. The £15, according to the "Builder" newspaper, and I am sure the Minister of Health will agree with me, cannot be justified. There is no justification whatsoever for the increase of £15 in the cost of the building materials for these small houses. That leaves no less than £36 10s. per house to be accounted for—gone to private enterprise! The £15 was taken by the trades concerned to show of what stuff they were made, and then the building contractors ran off with the further £36 10s.

May I remind the House that on every additional pound in the cost of the building of a house we had to add £2 for interest. The Minister of Health, if he asks his accountant to work it out for him, will, I am sure, be informed that that is so. Here I can give something that I stated on a former occasion to the House, but it is worth repetition. He will also be informed that if the London County Council, or any other local authority, borrows £500 for the usual statutory loan period for the purpose of erecting houses, that within that loan period they have to repay £1,537. In other words, I say again, that for every £l they borrow they have to repay £3 to the person or the representative of the person from whom they borrowed the money. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] It is important, therefore, to remember that under this system, on which we depend mainly for the salvation of the country, the £15 becomes £45, and the £36 10s. is multiplied by three. Instead of having to meet £64 the tenant, out of his rent during the lifetime of the house, has to find no less than £192. That, as one of my hon. Friends near me remarks, is private enterprise. I am often amazed that we have made such progress. It is a surprising thing to me to know, not that we suffer as we do under the system, but that we do not suffer a great deal more.

Let me show the House how private enterprise, under this operation, in the spirit in which I have no doubt the thing will be operated largely by my successor at the Ministry—how this private enterprise robs the poor of this country of their share in the available housing accommodation. During the Election we heard a great deal about the progress made towards the solution of our problem under the right hon. Gentleman's Act of 1923. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] So it may be as well for us if I bring those cheers down to the ground. Up to date the total number of houses erected in England and Wales under that Act is, in round figures, 38,000. The Act was placed on the Statute Book in July, 1923. These figures are up to the beginning of November, 1924. I think it is reasonable to allow that during the earlier months of the existence of the Act that the Act had not much opportunity of operating, but I can reasonably claim that it has now had a full 12 months' operation. During that period the number of houses completed, as I have said, is 38,000. I am not complaining. I think the Act, so far as was possible, has done fairly well. My point is here: to show how these 38,000 houses have been distributed. Whatever may have been the intentions of the Minister, the effect of the Act, as I have indicated, is to rob the poor for the benefit of the rich. Of these houses, 25,000 have been built to sell and 13,000 have been built for letting purposes. I have no doubt that when the right hon. Gentleman comes to deal with these figures, in order to swell them, he will add the approvals to the actual completions, and give us those figures. I am giving him and the House the actual number of houses.

I should have included the figures for Scotland. In Scotland things have not gone quite so well. Under the 1923 Act they have not completed their first thousand houses in Scotland, but they have done fairly well. They have erected and completed 842 houses for sale, and 73 houses for letting. I think it is not unreasonable to suggest to this House that the housing problem in this country is one that affects mainly the labouring and artisan sections of the community, and if the House is justified, as even supporters of private enterprise admit, in giving State assistance towards the provision of houses, then that State assistance, whether our resources be limited or unlimited, should go first of all to the people who need it most. Is it fair to say that among the working classes there are ten people who must rent houses to every one who can afford to purchase a house? It is not merely the actual shortage of cash. It is the industrial insecurity. May I put it to the representatives of the great industrialists on the other side of the House that there is a contributory element; the necessity of having greater mobility in in- dustrial labour. You send people from Glasgow to London and from London to Glasgow, so that instead of our travelling in the direction where the workmen will have greater security in industry we are really travelling more in the opposite direction. If my claim is admitted that 10 workers must rent houses for every one who can afford to buy a house, I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is fair that, when we come to distribute the limited resources of the nation in building labour and building materials, that he should give two houses to the little group wishful for sale for every house that he sets aside for letting purposes?

The right hon. Gentleman goes even further than that in boasting how he has been able to divert this available limited supply of materials and men, and he points to the large number of larger houses that are being erected altogether outside the provisions of this Act. Take a house that costs in the market from £800 to £2,000—a house that in the estimation of the average working man is something in the nature of a little mansion to which he can never hope to aspire. The right hon. Gentleman quotes houses like these as something that ought to give satisfaction to the poor working man who is waiting for the opportunity to rent his dwelling house. May I also explode the illusion abroad that steps are being taken through the local authority to provide the capital to enable those poor people to buy houses if they so desire. I have been looking into the figures, and I find that under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, during the six years 1919–25, the number of people who have been assisted in purchasing their dwelling houses only works out at 1,000, and of those 1,000 two-thirds purchased their houses, and only one-third shared in the houses to which I have referred.

It is true that under the 1923 Act progress has been a little better. I believe since it came into operation people to the number of 1,500 or 1,800 a year have received financial assistance. But my point is that the number of poor working people who are assisted financially through the local authorities to become owners of their dwellings would not work out at more than 8 per cent, of the houses which the right hon. Gentleman has completed under this Act. I go further, and challenge something on which the right hon. Gentleman bases the whole of his policy. He says: "Let us continue to add to the number of houses, let us go on building. It does not matter who may be getting them immediately; the effect will be that the working classes of this country will ultimately, as a result, find adequate and healthy housing accommodation." He asks us to believe that many of the 25,000 houses which have been built and sold are occupied by people who have left smaller dwellings and have made room for people who require to rent them. The right hon. Gentleman forgets something in connection with our social affairs. Our pedestrians on the social ladder are not all going up. Quite a number are going down. If he will look at any of our great cities, and particularly London, he will find that the houses that are being vacated and are to let are not the small working class dwellings, but larger houses, houses that are being converted into boarding houses and into business premises, and that very little assistance is to be found in that way for the working classes. If he has any faith in his theory he ought to be able to produce some evidence: I think I could supply him with some evidence to the contrary.

A friend of mine recently invited a number of typical local authorities to tell us how they stood now in regard to their waiting list, compared with 1923. According to the right hon. Gentleman we ought to have had those people finding houses whose names had been for years on the waiting lists of the local authorities, and in view of the provision of the larger houses for sale. What do we find? I have not been able to get as large a return as I should like, but I have got returns from Newcastle, Liverpool and Manchester. One does not expect the waiting lists in the larger cities to grow day by day, because when it gets obvious that the local authority has no houses there is little or no encouragement for people to put down their names to swell the lists. But I find that in October, 1923, there were 28,135 persons in those three cities registered as wanting house accommodation, and at the same date in 1924, after they had had all the benefits of the richer section of the com- munity getting houses, the number had swelled to 32,213. In other words, there are 4,078 more names on the waiting lists of those three local authorities than appeared there at the corresponding date in 1923. I have also been supplied—they were put into my hands since I arrived at the Box—with the figures for the city of Birmingham, in which the right hon. Gentleman may naturally be expected to be more particularly interested. I have not had an opportunity of analysing them, and I must give them for what they are worth, but I find that in 1923 the number on the list there was 15,300 and that it had gone up by the 31st January, 1924. The Town Clerk explains that they have recently scrapped the list in order to ascertain how many people, if any, have obtained housing accommodation since they put their names on the list, and he tells me that within a very short period they got a fresh list of 11,000, and that if the lists were re-opened the figure would again be in the neighbourhood of 15,000. So in spite of all the right hon. Gentleman claims to be doing for these people, even in his own city, the people clamouring for working-class house accommodation continue to increase, instead of decreasing under the operation of his Act.

I want to make it perfectly clear that we on this side of the House have no objection in principle to owner occupiers. What we object to is an individual owning the houses that other people occupy. Nor have we any objection, as is sometimes suggested, to new types of houses, nor to new methods of construction. The right hon. Gentleman will admit, I think, that when I appointed a committee at the request of Lord Weir to inquire and report on new methods of construction, I made it a very representative and unbiassed committee. That committee contained two representatives of the operatives in the building industry, two representatives of the building contractors, and, probably, two representatives of the manufacturers and merchants of building materials. One might have expected a minority report from a committee like that; but it shows you the width of view of the representatives of the working class that they gave a unanimous report in favour of what are called the "steel houses" being given a trial as a contribution to the solution of our problem. The Labour party right through, whether in office or in opposition, can claim that it has given the utmost support in its power to the solution of our housing problem.

May I, in conclusion, put one or two questions to the right hon. Gentleman in order that he may elucidate, if possible in greater detail, the intentions of His Majesty's Government on this question? I want him to tell us, because it will be interesting to more than this House, whether he intends to encourage local authorities to operate the Act of 1924, or whether he intends to starve it into suicide. That is something which will be of interest to a very large number of people outside this House. I would like to know, also, whether he intends to proceed along the path of industrial co-operation I marked out for the building industry during my period of office, or intends to resort to the big stick of the present Home Secretary. As he knows, and, I think, will admit, the operatives are loyally carrying out the pledges they gave to this House, and not only the operatives, but the building contractors, and all concerned. They have set up the national committee that was the necessary machinery for the augmentation of labour and output, and they are, I understand, engaged at the moment in setting up local committees for the same purpose. Obviously these people will want to know something of the intentions of His Majesty's Government, and whether it is the intention of the Government to encourage local authorities to administer the Act. May I remind the House that there is nothing antagonistic between the Housing Act of 1923 and the Housing Act of 1924. The one aims at providing houses mainly for people who can pay spot cash for their dwellings, and the other gives additional Governmental assistance to the local authorities to enable them to provide cheaper houses for letting.

May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? How can he claim that private enterprise will solve the housing problem in the agricultural areas? How does he expect that agricultural labourers, with 25s. or 30s. a week, can be reasonably expected to become the owners of the houses they occupy? It is utterly absurd. Here is an Act, the first Act, I claim, in the history of housing legislation that aimed at doing anything for the agricultural areas, and its very existence is now threatened by the people who are supposed to be the representatives of agriculture in the British House of Commons.

I would like to ask the Minister if he intends to put any difficulties in the way of a local authority employing direct labour as a check on private enterprise? In a speech which I delivered to my own local authority in the City of Glasgow some months ago I begged them to take this question of direct labour out of the arena of party politics and to treat it as a matter of business. Why should it be a matter of party politics? It should be the duty, the absolute public and social duty, of the members on local authorities to see that the ratepayers and the State—so far as they are trustees for the State—get value to the uttermost farthing for the money they contribute. I do not want to argue the relative merits of building by private contracting and by direct labour, but there is one wonderful statement in the Press during the past 10 days to which I would like to draw attention. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will get sufficient evidence independent of this—official evidence at the Ministry of Health—to justify him in putting no impediments in the way of local authorities operating by direct labour in building. The surveyor to the Clitheroe Council, according to a report in the "Westminster Gazette" the other day, tells us that his local authority invited tenders for the erection of six-room houses in the locality, and the lowest tender from a private contractor was £1,255. They proceeded to erect the houses by direct labour, which is all to their credit, and while the figures have not been finally approved by the Ministry of Health they give it out on the surveyor's authority and that of the local officials that the houses, instead of costing £1,255, will be actually completed for less than £700. He tells us also that the lowest tender for five-room houses they could get from private enterprise was £492, but they have built and finished those houses within a cost of £400.

Lastly, and perhaps most important of all, may I invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what he intends to do to protect the public against the operation of private enterprise in supplying build- ing materials? He is familiar with the provisions of the Bill which I submitted to the House, which received its First Reading and was printed. I am not asking him to adopt it, but we ought to know his policy. He knows that during the prolonged negotiations that I had with the manufacturers and the merchants, amongst others, in regard to housing, that I got in writing from the representatives of the associated brick-makers of this country a pledge, an offer, not to increase the price of bricks beyond that at which it stood in January, 1924. They had no objection to Statutory provisions being introduced. [An HON. MEMBER: "They increased the price!"] Yes, they increased the price, but it was lack of co-operation that put up the price, and I think that is worth remembering. In so far as those men could control their members, the price did not go up. I could give you names, I am tempted to give you names, of large manufacturers of bricks who, to my knowledge, actually refused higher prices than those at which they sold their bricks. It is not, however, merely the public who are the victims of the exploitation that accrues from competition in industry; the good employers themselves are frequently the victims. The man who had pledged his word to the Government kept his word, but they did not control the other man who was eager to make higher profits. He went out and he sold his bricks in a limited market for 10s. a thousand more. So you have a man being actually penalised for coming to the assistance of the people in the country. I ask, "Is it not quite reasonable that those people who are willing to play the game towards the public should be protected by the representatives of the public against those who want to make money out of exploiting the public needs?" I do not think that is unreasonable, so I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to do anything in that direction, whether he intends to pursue the path that I can, I suppose without suspicion of egotism, claim to have opened first. But it is not merely brickmakers. He knows, I am sure, that I was on the verge of coming to similar agreements with other manufacturers and merchants of building materials, and that the probability was that the Bill which I presented to Parliament would, with very slight modifications, have been passed as an agreed Bill had I remained in office' for a further three months.

I must apologise to the House for having taken up so much of its time, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to give clear and categorical replies to the questions I have submitted to him, and I am sure those replies will be interesting, not merely to the Members of this House, but to those engaged in the building industry, and to the public in general.

Those hon. Members who have not sat in this House previously may perhaps think that the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down was not entirely successful in the speech he has just delivered in carrying out his desire to keep the housing question outside party politics. Those of us who have listened to the right hon. Gentleman before must have recognised that he has been putting himself under very severe restraint. He has put a number of questions to which I shall endeavour to give him categorical answers in the course of my reply, and I think it would be for the convenience of the House that I should give a general survey of the housing position as I found it on my return to the Ministry of Health, and give some sort of estimate of the effect of the Housing Act, 1923, and the Act which was passed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite this year. I think I should also give some idea of the probable course of the housing problem in the future.

I shall allow the matters to which the right hon. Gentleman has drawn my attention to arise in the course of my survey, and I will answer them as I go along. I wish, however, to take just one of his questions out of that order because it does not quite fit in with the general idea of what I wish to say to the House. My predecessor in office has asked me whether I intend to put difficulties in the way of local authorities employing direct labour, and he has fortified his request by quoting a case in the borough of Clitheroe. I think the effect of his statement upon hon. Members is altogether misleading because the costs he compared were not comparable. The first cost taken by him was as long ago as 1921, when prices were at a very high level.

I am not making any complaint, but, as I observed that hon. Members opposite were quite shocked at this apparent profiteering by private enterprise, I think it only right that I should give the true facts, and I say that the figures given were not a fair comparison between contract work and direct labour, and you must take account of the tremendous drop in general costs which occurred in the years which appear in the comparison. I agree with my right hon. Friend that this is not a matter for party controversy, and that it is merely a matter of business and should be regarded as such. I have no intention for one moment of interfering with the discretion of local authorities desiring to employ direct labour if they can show me that it is an economical way of carrying out the work.

It applies to any business proposition. Let me refer to the Act of 1923. In moving the Second Reading of that Act I was careful to explain to the House that I did not anticipate that within the short space of time of two years one could expect to solve the housing problem. What I said I desired to do was to put into operation machinery which would in time solve the housing problem. I explained that the object of the Act was to lay the foundations, and those foundations are the two lines of policy which I have indicated, namely, the encouragement of private enterprise and the stimulation of the desire which I believe exists amongst large sections of the nation to be able to own their own houses by giving them facilities for obtaining capital.

I ask the House, in judging the failure or success of that Measure, to consider the facts we have before us to-day as to whether or not it has put private enterprise in house building on its legs again, and whether or not it has stimulated and encouraged occupying ownership. In accordance with the anticipation of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I am going to give the number of houses which have been approved of up to date under that Act. In the case of houses to be built by local authorities the total is 53,535, and in the case of houses approved for build- ing by private enterprise the total is. 116,858. In other words, private enterprise, so far as the settlement of plans for housing is concerned, has done rather more than twice as much as the local authorities. I am afraid my right hon. Friend has not yet got out of the habit of trying to belittle the operation of this Act, and he has once more referred to the comparatively small number of houses actually completed in the twelve months which elapsed after the Act was passed. Of course, the limiting factor in the building of houses was not anything in the Act itself, but the fact that there was insufficient skilled labour and materials. If the country is to get a true picture of what is going on to-day in the attempt to solve the housing problem, we must not pick out merely the number of houses which are being built under one particular scheme, but you must consider the total number being built in the country, and that is the only way in which you can see whether you are succeeding. For the 12 months ended the 30th of September last, 110,000 houses were built and actually completed. Of that total, 14,500 houses were built by local authorities, and 95,352, or 86 per cent, of the total, were built by private enterprise.

Yes, all houses. The total maximum number of houses ever built in one year in this country, as far as I have been able to ascertain, was 129,000, and I say that it is a remarkable fact that to-day, in spite of the extraordinary limitations of labour and materials which exist, we shall have got within 19,000 of that total. The right hon. Gentleman opposite says that most of these houses have been built by private enterprise and that this is robbing the poor in order to give to the rich. Now is that statement borne out by an examination of these figures? I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman would be surprised to know that out of these 110,000 houses upwards of 95,000 have a rateable value under £26 a year. Does that look like robbing the poor to give to the rich? Are they rich people who occupy houses of a rateable value of under £26 per annum. I think that is a new definition of the rich.

I do not want to weary the House by pouring out figures, because I know how difficult it is to retain them, but I would like to give one more figure which will assist us to form a true idea of the present position of the housing problem which I consider is extremely encouraging. I have given the House the actual number of houses built during the 12 months ending the 30th September. On the 1st of October this year there were under construction in addition to the figures I have just given another 92,000 houses of which 71,000 were being built by private enterprise. I therefore draw this conclusion, that not only has private enter-price made the greater contribution to the supply of houses, but that we may expect that the rate of building during the next 12 months will be very considerably in excess of last year, and will even reach the maximum number Which I quoted just now. Before I leave this part of my subject there is a matter to which I wish to draw attention because I do not think sufficient consideration has been given to it. Hon. Members who were in this House in 1923 will recollect that a tremendous amount of criticism was directed against the Bill by hon. Members on the benches opposite on account of the dimensions of the houses which were suggested, and they did not scruple to say that I was lowering the standard of accommodation, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wheatley) in particular asked me to remember that we were building not merely for to-day but for two generations ahead, and he was extremely critical because he said I had put the area so low.

I will not repeat in detail the arguments I used on that occasion, but briefly what I said was that if you are going to build houses for the working classes you must build them to let at rents which they can afford to pay, and the only result of increasing the size of your houses would be that you would get another class coming into them who can pay the extra rents which will attach to those houses. In deference to criticism the area eligible for subsidy was increased from 850 square feet to 950. As a matter of fact, the average areas of the houses erected under that Act by local authorities is actually less than 850 square feet, and it is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 820 square feet. Take the houses erected by private enterprise. I am not able at the moment to give a definite figure, but the average size of the houses erected by private enterprise is nearer 940 square feet than 850. [An HON. MEMBER: "The price is bigger."] But that is not the point. The hon. Member does not appreciate that I am doing what the right hon. Gentleman asked me to do. I am trying to look forward for the next two generations. I say that in my judgment the value of these houses will inevitably suffer a considerable fall.

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What does that mean? It means that they will come within the means of a section of the community of a lower scale of earnings than that of those who are now inhabiting them. But now suppose that the right hon. Gentleman's policy had been carried out. Suppose that building were confined entirely to local authorities. Then, when the value of these houses came down, when the workman began to look round for a class of accommodation a little better than that which he was then inhabiting, there would be nothing but 820 square feet houses existing in the country. The policy I have carried out, which the right hon. Gentleman is denouncing, is a policy which has provided us with a great reservoir of houses of a standard of accommodation very much in advance of what the working man is in possession to-day, and these houses will eventually come within his means as their value falls and he will have reason to be grateful to the Act of 1923, by which private enterprise has been enabled to provide houses.

Let me come now to the other principle which underlay the Act, the principle hat we should, where possible, encourage the occupier of a house to be the owner of it by giving him special facilities in the way of advancing the necessary cash. The right hon. Gentleman has never looked with any favour upon this principle of occupying-ownership. He has continually pooh-poohed its effect, because he has told us that it was a matter entirely outside the scope of the ordinary working people. Of course, I can quite understand that there is really a fundamental difference of opinion between these benches and those. The man who owns his own house is always going to be a good citizen. He is always going to be a friend of law and order. He is not going to support those who want to upset the state of society which has enabled him to become a little capitalist in his own small way. He is going to refuse to march under the banner of the right hon. Gentleman who preaches the class war. Therefore one can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman has no particular interest in it, and does not desire to do anything which may add to the ranks of his political opponents. But when he says that it is hopeless to expect working people to be able to purchase their own houses, then I disagree with him entirely. Of course', I do not say that all workmen can do it. I have been astonished, I must confess, at the capacity for saving even among the poorer section of the working people, when they have really got very little to save at all. I object to the way in which this matter is being belittled by the right hon. Gentleman, and by those who are faithfully following in his footsteps. I see the hon. Member for Nelson and Coin (Mr. A. Greenwood) sitting there. It was only this morning when, after reading the "Daily Herald"——

I found a column headed: of a merely trifling nature, he concludes by saying:

Let me turn to the Act of this year. I see it described by the enthusiastic supporters of the right hon. Gentleman as the greatest housing Act ever passed at any time in any country in the world. To my mind the real greatness of his Act lies in the variety and extent of the illusions which it has succeeded in creating. Is it a housing Act? Nothing of the kind. The title of it is, Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, and it is in fact an Act to apply certain financial provisions to housing. But it does not, and cannot and it never will, add one single house to the number which would have been provided if it had never been passed. I challenge him to deny that statement. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why do you say you are going to give it a trial?"] For this simple reason, that the limiting factors I have already stated are, that there is shortage of labour, that the Act of the right hon. Gentleman does nothing whatever to increase the labour, and that therefore it cannot possibly do anything to increase the number of houses being built. Now let me say what it does do. It increases the subsidy which was given under the Act of last year, and which amounted to an equivalent of £75 per house, to an equivalent of £160 from the Exchequer, and another £80 from the rates. It is therefore a total increase in subsidy of £165 per house.

For what purpose is the subsidy given? It is solely for this purpose, to enable these houses to be let and to be let, in the words of the right hon. Gentleman, at a rent within the means of the working classes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, but the point we have Co address ourselves to is, Is it going to achieve that object? I do not hear any "Hear, hear!" We do not know. Nobody knows, and it is just to test the capacity of the Act in that respect that I have left it upon the Statute Book. I want to see what are the rents that will be charged for the houses that are going to be built under the Act of this year. Up to the present a certain number of houses, which have been approved under the 1923 Act, have been switched over to the 1924 Act in order to obtain the bigger subsidy. I am content that that should be so, because it gives us an opportunity of trying out the validity or otherwise of the right hon. Gentleman's conclusions.

I would remind hon. Members opposite that the rent of these houses is going to depend upon their cost, and upon whether or not that cost rises above the figure which was in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman when he fixed the subsidy will depend whether the rent in turn will rise above the level which he had in his mind. The figure that he gave me in this House, when I asked him at that time, was £475 all in. That is the cost of the house. At that figure he calculated that, after making allowance for his increased subsidy, the houses should be let at rents which were approximately at the same level as the rents now being charged for pre-war houses. But already the price has gone up by £50, and that means, certainly, 1s. a week on the rent, with a corresponding increase in the rates; and the success or the failure of the right hon. Gentleman's Act will depend upon whether, when the rents are actually fixed for these houses, it is the opinion of the country that the lowering of rent is a sufficient reward for the enormously increased subsidy we have been asked to provide. The Act will have a fair trial from me. It is not my intention to discourage local authorities or to throw difficulties in their way. It shall have a fair trial; it shall stand or fall by its own performance. But I cannot promise the right hon. Gentleman that, if it turns out to have failed, it will remain in its present condition, and, indeed, he himself has always contemplated that, after a certain interval of time, the conditions of the subsidy will have to be reviewed and considered afresh in the light of the conditions that may then exist.

Now I come to the other work of the right hon. Gentleman in connection with his administration at the Ministry of Health—I mean the scheme which he organised for the augmentation of labour and materials and for their proper distribution. In my view, that was a statesmanlike piece of work. It was work in the right direction, and it is work which I intend to support and encourage by every means in my power, for really the whole root and crux of our housing problem is in the existing shortage of labour and materials, and the hope of increasing our present housing accommodation is bound up largely with the possibility of increasing these two sources of supply. The right hon. Gentleman set up a Committee, on which he had succeeded in obtaining the co-operation of employers and operatives, with a view to increasing the actual skilled labour employed in the industry and making it available where it was most required. I am very glad indeed that the Committee, in addition to the scheme of apprenticeship which, I think, formed the original basis of their plans, are now, after some suggestions that I made to them, turning their attention also to the question of up-grading the labourers in the industry. That is, to my mind, the source from which it is most reasonable to expect that you will get any considerable immediate increase in the kind of labour that we want. It is four years before apprentices become skilled craftsmen, and although that time might possibly be shortened by some system of intensive education and training, yet here you have in the industry at any rate a certain number of men who, it is admitted, can turn their hands to bricklaying at once; and any scheme which will encourage or enable them to do that is going to give us an immediate augmentation, of which I think we may expect to see the results in a year's time.

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, will he say something with regard to the alternative methods of construction in housebuilding?

I have not left that point yet. I think I have now answered the right hon. Gentleman's second question, and I come to a further question which has reference to the difficulty, to which he has called attention, in regard to price and cost. The House is familiar, or, at any rate, Members of the last House will be familiar, with the Bill which was read a First time, to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded, but, perhaps, for the benefit of those who have not seen that Bill, I had better just give a very brief account of what it was. The Bill only dealt with the manufacturers of materials required for the construction of houses. It provided that a Committee which was set up by myself when I was at the Ministry of Health before, to watch the course of prices, should, after being strengthened by the addition of various other Members, make a report to the Minister of Health, when they had reason to think that prices were being unduly raised in any one of these particulars. The Minister of Health would make a report to the President of the Board of Trade, who would then cause an inquiry to be instituted, in the course of which the inquirer would have statutory power to call for books, records, costs, profits, and so forth; and if he were satisfied that there was undue raising of prices in the particular trade, the President of the Board of Trade would then have power to fix prices himself. If, thereupon, the manufacturer should say," I do not agree with the price you have fixed; I do not consider that it gives me a sufficient return to make it worth my while to go on, and I am, therefore, going to close down or to refuse to supply at that price," power was given to the Board of Trade to step in and commandeer the works without compensation to the owner or manufacturer concerned.

The House will see that that was a Measure of a very drastic character. Whether it would have effected the object which the right hon. Gentleman had in mind is a matter of opinion, and our experience, during the War, in attempting to control prices in this sort of way, was certainly not encouraging. But when I came to consider what should be my course of action with regard to this Bill, I thought it best first of all to consult with the manufacturers themselves. It will be remembered—indeed, the right hon. Gentleman himself referred to it—that he made an arrangement with them at the outset of the negotiations in which he got them to agree that they would not raise their prices above those prevailing on, the 1st January of this year, unless their costs were raised by some influences beyond their control, which is rather an important reservation. The right hon. Gentleman, in telling the House about this arrangement, said: supplying the materials which, after all, only constitute one-half of the cost of the houses, who have voluntarily made the most generous offer that a nation could expect from, any section of its people, and have kept that offer in the letter and in the spirit; and yet here is a Bill which proposes to single them out, to put them in the pillory, to put them, so to speak, under suspicion by the whole country, and to say that they cannot be trusted in the future to carry out the undertaking which they have given. I ask myself why should I treat that particular factor in the cost of the houses in that very exceptional and discriminatory way; and I can find no reason for singling out these people and treating them any differently from the rest of the factors which go towards the cost of the houses. I have come to the conclusion, therefore, that, with the evidence before me, which shows that there has been practically no rise in the cost of materials, or at any rate no rise which justifies the rise in the cost of houses— which would not be touched by this Bill— I have come to the conclusion that it is not right to introduce any such Bill in this House. I would only add that the Government will keep a watchful eye upon all costs in connection with the building of houses, and, if they should find reason to suppose that the public are being exploited, whether by manufacturers who supply materials, whether by Labour, or by contractors, or by financiers, or anybody who contributes towards the cost of the houses, then, I say, we would take our own measures to put a stop to that exploitation.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he would be prepared to limit the price that the contractor may ask for the subsidy houses? I am on a housing committee, and the difficulty is that the public has got to pay the contractor's price.

I would refer the hon. Member to the wording of the Act of 1923, which says that, before granting a subsidy, the Minister must be satisfied, firstly, that there is need in the locality for such houses as it is proposed to build, and, secondly, that such houses could not be built if a subsidy were not given. That is, therefore, the test which I would apply to the case which the hon. Member has put to me, and if I were satisfied that the houses could be built and would be built without any subsidy being given at all, then I certainly should refuse the subsidy.

Let me return to the question of the amount of labour available for the building of houses. I have considered what augmentation we are likely to get from the the operations of the Committee—who, I believe, are doing their work with every desire to make it succeed—in the course of the next two or three years. It will be remembered that the Building Industry Committee themselves, in the Report which they presented to the right hon. Gentleman, put down the augmentation of houses which the industry expected to be able to produce in the first year at 50,000. In the second year it went up, I think, to 70,000, and thereafter it went up to considerably larger figures. I think it must be admitted that the task of this Committee is a very difficult one. Not only have they got to persuade the employers who are working for local authorities to take a full number of apprentices into their employment— and that they can do, because local authorities can put a clause in the contract making it imperative on the contractor to employ the full number of apprentices—but they have also to deal with employers who are not getting any assistance from the State at all, and I do not quite, see what pressure they can put upon them, except such methods of moral suasion as they can use with any member of their own industry.

It may be that it will not be possible to find the requisite apprentices in a particular locality to fill up the number, and a great many other difficulties will be apparent to the House. Moreover, at the best, the apprentice, of course, in his first year, when he only gets, I think, 42J per cent, of the craftsman's wage, cannot be expected to have the same capacity of output as the craftsman himself. Therefore, I think that if you allow that, owing to the scheme of augmentation, the output of houses will be increased by one-third in the first year, you are giving a far larger scope to the work of that Committee than any reasonable man ought to expect from it. But I have already given the House the output of houses for last year, namely, 110,000; and, therefore, the most, I think that you can hope for is only 36,000 additional houses, instead of the 50,000 contemplated by the Building Industry Committee.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to point out that the 50,000 estimated by the Building Committee was in excess of what was estimated to be built under the 1923 Act?

I am suggesting that we should not have 50,000 extra houses. The most I can possibly see— and I do not really see it—is 36,000, and therefore it is necessary for us to try to look round and see whether there is some way of supplementing the present method of house building by some new materials or new methods of construction, and if at the same time, by utilising these new methods, we can do something to diminish the great army of unemployed we shall be serving a double purpose and I think we shall be doing a real service to the State. Last week I paid a special visit to Glasgow in order to see for myself what was being done in this direction by Lord Weir and by others who are designing and building houses of different types, and I came back feeling very hopeful of the future after what I had seen. The idea of a steel house comes strange to many people, and especially perhaps to those who have never seen one and who imagine it as a sort of petrol tin, hideous to look at and uncomfortable to live in, but I do not think, if they saw the houses I saw in Glasgow, they would maintain that view at all. Indeed, as far as the house constructed by Lord Weir is concerned, it is a misnomer to call it a steel house. It is really a house constructed with a timber frame, lined with steel plates upon the outside, and upon the inside with a material which I think is composed of compressed wood pulp and asbestos but which looks rather like a very thick and smooth brown cardboard. I am not going to try to force a new house upon anyone who does not want it. What I am anxious for is that working people should have an opportunity of judging for themselves and should not be put off by prejudiced accounts from people who may have their own interests to serve in preventing the introduction of new methods of construction.

Therefore I have made an arrangement with Lord Weir, under which he has undertaken to set aside a part of his factory for the production of a certain number of demonstration or experimental houses to be supplied to local authorities, and in order that this thing may be done quickly and that local authorities may be ready to take these experimental houses I have, with the concurrence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, set aside a sum of money from which I shall give a grant to any local authority that is taking these experimental houses, and in return I shall ask the local authority not to let them, at any rate to begin with, but to erect them in some spot where they can be readily visited and inspected freely by the public. I am hoping that I shall very speedily get erected in different parts of the country a number of these so-called steel houses in a position where the people themselves can visit them and can judge whether or not they are suitable for their accommodation, and my own view is, without attempting to speak for them, that these houses are not only not unpleasant to the eye as viewed from the outside, but are exceedingly comfortable and home-like inside and I believe will meet with very widespread favour. The cost must, to some extent, depend upon the quantity ordered, and Lord Weir has not, I believe, fixed yet the price at which he will be able to deliver, not knowing what number he may be asked to supply, but he authorises me to say the cost of his houses would be lower, and I hope substantially lower, than that of a brick house with similar accommodation.

I can under stand that being so in Scotland, but would it be so in England and Wales?

I understand Lord Weir has got what he calls a unit factory in Scotland which can be multiplied to any extent for England and Wales. There is in fact a number of factories which are, I think, if not derelict, at any rate unemployed at present, which could readily turn out the necessary parts to construct these houses, and it is his intention, if the house is approved and if the demand arises, to fit up similar unit factories in different parts of the country and multiply the supply for all parts of the country as far as possible locally. I am not committed to approval of this particular type to the exclusion of any other type. I think there will be probably a considerable number of houses submitted for public approval under new methods but ultimately we shall perhaps get down to two or three types. If it is a successful experiment it has, at any rate, these advantages. First of all the production of it can be multiplied indefinitely. Secondly, it requires for its construction materials for the production of which the capacity of this country is far in excess of the present demand. Thirdly, it is cheap—at any rate it is cheaper than the houses of which we have knowledge. Fourthly, it will give a large amount of employment to just that very section of the community which is most in need of employment. If we can diminish this large army of young men who are unable to find work to-day in the engineering trade we shall not only diminish the burden upon the Exchequer and upon the rates, but we shall restore to them their moral and their self-respect, which has been so damaged by constantly having to live upon charity for which they can give no return.

May I ask a question on the statement the right hon. Gentleman has just made? I must not be taken as implying any hostility to the experiment he has just described, but I should like to ask whether, with respect to the arrangement he has made with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the matter of finance, he has any authority from any Act of Parliament to cover that?

No, a token Vote, of course, will have to be presented to the House for the money. In addition to its advantages, there is one other thing I look to for the provision of new methods, and that is that it is going to bring us substantially nearer to the time when we can at last tackle in earnest the question of the slums. I do not think any aspect of the housing problem appeals so strongly to Members, I will not say only of the party behind me, but of all parties in the House, as this of the slums. It is true that the actual figure of house building in connection with slum clearance schemes during the last year was trifling. I do not think, however, that that is the way to look at it. You have to look at this fact, that you have not only the existence of slums, but also of overcrowding. You must relieve the over- crowding before, on a large scale, you can deal with slums, and therefore the first consideration is the multiplication of new houses, which would relieve the overcrowding, and then we shall be able properly to tackle the slums. I look forward to the future with hope and confidence. I believe we have made very much more progress in the direction in which we seek to go than perhaps has yet been fully realised, and I believe that during the next few years, if we combine a wise and careful administration with such additional legislation as may seem to us to be necessary and desirable, at the time that we come to the end of the life of this Parliament we shall have been able to convince the country, not indeed that the problem is solved, but that the goal is at any rate in sight.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his return to his old post. If rumour is right, he had an opportunity of higher office, but he let that opportunity go by because he was anxious to return to the Ministry of Health. I think he made a wise choice, because I think he has an immense' opportunity for establishing a reputation and of doing great service to his fellow countrymen. He has the advantage of having a large majority behind him to back him up to carry out his policy, and, on the other hand, he has apparently a chance of a considerable term of office. That is an immense advantage to a Minister undertaking such a great work as that of reforming the housing of the people of the country. So he starts under very good auspices. Housing is becoming less and less a controversial question. My own feeling—I speak after some 17 or 18 years' experience on a housing committee—is that there is no great need for fresh legislation. We have had many Acts of Parliament to deal with the housing question. I go back to Mr. Burns' Act. We have had the Addison scheme, the Chamberlain scheme, and the Wheatley scheme. There are plenty of Acts of Parliament on the Statute Book. What I feel is really wanted is the right spirit in the Ministry of Health. If the Minister really means business, I am satisfied that the legislation exists in order for him to do his work. I do not believe that new schemes are required. On the contrary, I think that what many people now demand is that we get on with the work of producing the houses. I was interested to hear the Minister's touching faith in the occupier-owner as the real or the main solution of this problem. My view, and I think it is the view of most of my friends who act with me, of what is required, is that every effort, every organisation, every scheme should be encouraged to produce houses. If the private builder can produce them, well and good. If the owner-occupier provides a way of increasing the number of habitations in the country, then by all means let the Minister of Health encourage him; but I speak with a knowledge of London, and I am afraid that if the right hon. Gentleman pins too much faith on the owner-occupier, he is doomed to disappointment.

We in London have made a great effort to encourage people to buy their houses. We happen to have as chairman of our housing committee, a very energetic and very able Conservative soldier, full of enthusiasm, and with great faith in private enterprise. He has used all the machinery of the London County Council to encourage people to buy their own houses by advances under the various schemes referred to by the Minister of Health, but the results have been infinitesimal. They have been so small that they can hardly be called a contribution to the housing question. Many efforts have been made in London in that direction for many years. I agree with the late Minister of Health that, at any rate in London, the working man wants to be free and able to move. He does not want to be tied to one particular area, and he views with suspicion being tied to one particular area. I know that it is different in the Midlands, where I have had some experience, and where through the organisation of building societies the conditions are such as to encourage working men to invest their savings in houses. Building societies are the most effective organisation for that purpose, but it is not so in London.

There is another very serious fact, and that is that during the last four years the savings of the people have been depleted by long periods of unemployment and long cycles of under-employment, and that has meant that people have no spare cash to put into houses. It is, therefore, well to face the fact that we have to look substantially to other agencies, if we are realty going to meet a most serious need. We have found, and there I agree with the Minister, that there has been a lot of building going on in and around London of houses—I was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman speak about the low assessable value of a large number— nearly all over the subsidy figure. The builders prefer to build houses for sale beyond the size fixed by the Act of 1923, and to forego the subsidy. Those houses are for the middle class. People with money and with savings can, somehow or other, get the houses they require, because the houses will be forthcoming. Our real problem is to provide homes for the ordinary weekly workers who live on wages paid by the hour. That is the problem, at any rate in London, that we have to face.

I have a very clear recollection of the enthusiasm with which the Addison scheme was launched. There was an absolute freedom from any party feeling. All sections of the community came together to give that big scheme a good send-off. We were summoned to Buckingham Palace to receive the Royal blessing, and there was general enthusiasm throughout London. The Housing Committee of the London County Council launched a scheme which provided that in five years some 29,000 houses were to be built. Plans were prepared, contracts were made, and land was bought—the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will remember the scheme, because he was a party to it— and there seemed every hope that within five years those 29,000 houses, which were fixed as the minimum required to meet the needs of London, would be forthcoming. The five years have nearly elapsed and not only have we not built the 29,000 houses, but 9,000 is the figure of our achievement. That being the result, I am rather sceptical of new schemes.

If we are going to get results we must take a long view. You cannot turn out houses like sausages from a machine. You must have carefully-thought-out plans, going over a long period of years. I should like to know—I was disappointed that the Minister did not make reference to it—whether we are to have a 15 years' scheme. That was the best part of the Act of 1924. It provided a policy for 15 years. The weakness of the Act of 1923—if I may say so with great respect to the present Minister of Health—was that it only made arrangements for two years. If the Minister will accept that part of the Act of 1924, it would be a great help and a satisfactory cure of the housing problem. I am not going to differ from him when he says that labour is the key of the position. We have not in London, I will not say the necessary labour, but the necessary skilled labour, to get a big programme carried out. I cannot blame some of the unions concerned for their natural suspicion of any form of dilution. We had dilution in the engineering trade, and we see thousands of engineers walking the streets of towns like Middlesbrough and cities in the North of England. The building trade has had very hard experience in the past. There is no trade that has been subject to longer cycles of unemployment and greater fluctuations in employment than the building trade. Therefore, they are naturally suspicious of all these new schemes which threaten to flood the building trade with labour.

I welcome the suggestion of the Minister of Health as to new forms of building that will not require the ordinary kind of labour, but we must be careful in regard to that, because that is just the sort of thing that will make the building trade think twice before they admit a great army of new men into their ranks. If, as soon as they agree to a new and generous scheme, a new and rival form of work is encouraged, it may injure the very purpose that we have at heart. I want to urge the necessity of a continuous policy over a long period if we are to get the necessary labour. I have here the figures of the number of men in the building trade employed by the London County Council on the 5th March in four separate years. In 1921, the number was over 5,000, and in 1922 it had risen to 10,000. The year 1922 was the peak year, a great army of men were employed, but in 1923 the number had dropped to 1,643, and this year on the 5th March the number had risen to a little over 2,000. These are men employed in the building trade on the London County Council estates. Hon. Members will see what happened. A large number of men were drawn into London from other branches of trade for the production of working-class houses. Then there came a change of policy—which may or may not have been a wise decision—and the result was that in 1922 thousands of men were thrown into the labour market in London, to be absorbed in other branches of the trade, some of them to go abroad, some of them to go to other branches of industry in other parts of the country. That sort of thing is fatal. If you are going to tackle the labour policy in regard to housing, you must have continuity.

I was glad to hear the Minister refer to up-grading in the building trade. At the present time, there is a large number of unemployed in the trade. In October, 1924, over 20,000 men in London coming under the category of the general building trade were out of work, or 13'4 of the total number employed. When you come to bricklayers, there were only 99 unemployed, or a little over 1 per cent. As for plasterers, they are as scarce as diamonds. Sixty plasterers were classified as unemployed, or only one-half per cent. Of labourers, 10 per cent, were out of work, and of painters 25 per cent., while of other occupations in the building trade in London, 25'6 per cent, were out of work. Is it unreasonable to suggest that men belonging to the recognised trade unions who are in the building trade should be trained and should be up-graded to the necessary skilled work in the building of houses? I make this suggestion to the Minister and to my hon. Friends above the Gangway, that they should put up a practical scheme of work to the building trade unions concerned and that men should be specially trained in the building trade to become bricklayers and plasterers in building subsidised houses contracted for by the municipalities, on the understanding that there is to he a 15 years' programme. If the Government decide to give a guarantee to Parliament and the nation that there shall be a 15 years' programme I am satisfied that the opposition to a new army of men being introduced into this particular section of the industry will disappear. I believe that is a practical remedy. There is plenty of work ahead which requires to be done.

I am satisfied that if there is to be a 15 years' programme, the materials will be forthcoming. People seeing work ahead for a great period of years will naturally be inclined to invest their money in this particular industry, but so long as they are uncertain, and so long as there may be changes of policy, obviously, they will not invest their money in the industry. The making of bricks is a comparatively straightforward business. I have a recollection that in 1904 certain brickfields were owned by the London County Council, at Norbury. There was a great deal of scandal about it at the time; it was called Socialism. Such was the outcry that these brickfields had to be closed down. Those bricks are now in municipal houses. As the brickfields were on the site of the housing estate, it proved a very practical and businesslike proposition. I am not going to suggest that the Government should embark on large undertakings for the production of bricks, because I am sure that this Government would not do it, but I would put it to the Minister that this is such a big question that he should be prepared, where there is a scarcity of bricks, sympathetically to receive suggestions from municipalities, when they have a large estate which they are developing, to undertake the production of their own bricks. I see no very great difference between the production of bricks and the production of houses. There is no very serious dividing line. It would be a very useful test as to the cost of material, for either the local authority or the State to undertake an enterprise of this kind. If the Minister is going to get over these difficulties, he must be prepared to take a broad and wide view of the whole question.

6.0 P.M.

I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's sympathetic references to the direct employment of labour. I have no delusions about the direct employment of labour. I do not think that you will get very big results from the county councils or the municipalities suddenly starting to engage men for 6.0 P.M. direct labour and putting them to produce houses. But I do think that where you have large authorities it is very useful protection for those authorities to have their own construction department. Railway Companies have their own construction departments. There was a time when the London County Council had its own works department and got very good results from it, I do not suggest that all the houses should be built by this means; on the contrary, I do not think that would be advisable, because you would have no check on costs. But where you have big operations it seems to me common sense that the authorities should be encouraged to have their own departments, not to do all the work, but to check contract prices and to do a certain amount of work on their own account. As a matter of fact, in London, lightly or wrongly—I am doubtful whether it has been a complete success— we have not been getting ordinary competitive contracts for a great deal of our work. It is done on the basis of cost, plus a percentage, and big contractors like Messrs. Wills, McAlpine and Cubitts are doing a great part of our municipal house construction. It was found that the small contractor could not turn out the houses on a large enough scale. It is necessary to turn out houses, not by dozens or hundreds, but by thousands. That applies to all the great municipalities, to Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds and all the great cities. With big scale operations you cannot go to the ordinary small contractor. You have to go to the big public works contractors, and that is a very serious matter if you have not some check on their prices. That check can be provided best by public authorities being encouraged to have a small works department of their own.

I was very glad to hear the Minister's appeal to the House on the question of slum.5. No one knows better than he the terrible need of houses in many parts of Birmingham, and in nearly every one of our great towns. Though the shortage may be bad in the provinces, in no part of the country are the housing conditions as bad as in London within a mile or two of this House. Cross the river to Bermondsey or Lambeth or Southwark, and you will see conditions that are a disgrace to our civilisation. Take my own constituency. I sometimes feel ashamed to call on people, my electors, when I find the appalling conditions under which they live. I happened to come across a street, not half a mile from the richest spot in the world, the City of London, and1 that street showed such conditions that I could not believe they were true. I got the Medical Officer for London to visit the place, and this is his report: I am deliberately giving the name of the street, because I think it should be made public.

If you are to do anything to deal with slums, it is no use merely touching the slums. My experience of slum clearances has been, on the whole, very unsatisfactory. What happens in London? There is an outcry, and public opinion is aroused. Some district visitor comes across one of these black spots. There is a public inquiry, an official is sent down, and it is determined to clear the area. What happens? In nearly every case there is less housing accommodation put on that site than was there before. It merely means driving people away from that site to make a further slum somewhere else. The kind of building that has to be constructed on such a site is the block dwelling, and the people of London and of England do not like block dwellings, which are an apology for homes. They are expensive to build and unsatisfactory to manage. The only way to clear slums is to have a long policy so that you will get a surplus of houses.

I remember that in 1906, when there was a big building boom, there was a fair number of vacant rooms in the working-class districts in London, and there was a tendency, therefore, for the slums to be pulled down to give way to factories and workshops. In other words, the slums were curing themselves. But now slums are becoming worse and more intensified, and new slums are being created. There is more overcrowding now. According to the last census return there were 700,000 people living more than two persons to a room, which is the very modest test of overcrowding in London. We must be prepared to take a somewhat different attitude from that which we have taken in the past. What is required is the buiding of new towns. Sometimes they are called satellite towns. Whatever you may call them, you want to try to lift up your population from some of these overcrowded districts and to take them away and dump them down in a new area under new conditions. That must be done, of course, by Government action. You have an example of that kind in Letchworth. There is another example in Port Sunlight. Those are isolated cases. Port Sunlight, of course, is in the hands of one employer. I see no reason why those people who are so keen on colonising Australia, New Zealand, and Canada should not colonise some parts of our own country. Take up sites at their agricultural value, lay them out, get manufacturers to go there. They are doing that in America and in the Dominions. Get our men to go there. Town-plan the site, lay out the streets, provide the drainage, and then persuade a very willing population to leave London and leave a little more room for the rest. That policy is what we want. We have public opinion behind us. If the Minister of Health, with big battalions to back him and the promise of a long term of office to do his work, and with great experience of municipal government, will use his imagination on these lines, it may be that in five years' time he will be rewarded for his modesty in refusing higher office and being content to do great work as a Minister of Health.

To those of us who have the housing problem at heart, a speech such as that to which we have just listened is, almost heartbreaking. That, to a certain extent, the problem should be in such hands in London is a grief to me. After all, what is the problem at the bottom of the whole housing crisis? It is simply the problem of the cost of building new houses. The proposals which have been made again and again, by the last speaker and by other people who claim the name of Liberal in this House, are all proposals, such as those of the Minister of Health, for increasing the cost of building and nothing else. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, in his speech, admitted that the cost of building working-class houses had gone up between £70 and £100 within the last 12 months, and he accused the late Minister of Health of having been responsible for that rise. I do not think that that was a fair accusation. As a matter of fact, whenever I have any money to spare, which is not very often, I always build a house with it as quickly as I can. During the whole of the time since the War, when all these futile schemes of various Governments have been put forward, I have been in a position to watch closely by personal experience what was the actual cost of building working-class houses. During the early spring we ascertained by answers to questions in this House that the rise in building this class of house' began early in October of last year, and was continued throughout October, November and December of last year until, in January of this year, costs were something in the neighbourhood of £50 to £65, on the average, more than they had been in the summer of last year.

It is impossible to accuse the late Minister of Health of having caused that rise in price, because he had nothing whatever to do with it up to then. The person I accuse of having produced that rise in cost is the present Minister of Health. Hon. Members will perhaps recollect that I ventured to move the rejection of the right bon. Gentleman's subsidy Bill on the Third Reading last year. The sole ground for my doing that was this—that if a subsidy, amounting to from £60 to £75 per house, were granted by the Government, the inevitable result would be that the cost of a house would go up by the amount of £60 to £75. That Act was passed in the late summer of last year. I am referring to the Act of the present Minister of Health—the Subsidy Act of 1923. It was passed in the late summer, and no effect on the cost of building was produced until that Act got to work. It began to work about the beginning of October last year, and as soon as ever subsidised houses began to be built the average cost throughout the whole country went up, as I prophesied during the Third Reading Debate, by exactly the amount of the right hon. Gentleman's subsidy. How the right hon. Gentleman can stand there now and criticise as bitterly as he does the policy of the other right hon. Gentleman who has adopted exactly the same policy as he did, but has reduced it to the logical absurdity to which it was bound to come, passes my understanding.

A point which cannot be too often reiterated is that the problem is a problem of cost, and it inevitably follows that if you say to the building trade "For every one of these houses that you build we will give you a sum of money," then the cost of building will go up by the amount of that subsidy. Let me take a little metaphor. Suppose the right hon. Gentleman himself were engaged in the occupation of selling oranges from a barrow in the street; suppose that by selling those oranges at 1d. each he could make a sufficient profit for his purposes, and suppose the Minister of Health or some other responsible person came along and said, "To every person who buys one of your oranges we will give a halfpenny at the taxpayer's expense," does anyone say that the right hon. Gentleman himself would not put up the price of the oranges to three halfpence each promptly? Of course he would, and the people in the building trade are just as human as the right hon. Gentleman himself. To a certain extent they fight about the spoil. When a subsidy is given there is always a certain amount of squabbling between the various sections of the trade—between the employers, the trade unions, and the building material suppliers—but in every event, sooner or later, they come to some sort of an arrangement to share out the spoil and up goes the cost of the houses to the amount of the subsidy. I am not speaking from theory, but from unhappy practical experience, because, as I say, I have made it my business to build houses. I suppose it is the business of everybody who can find the time, the opportunity, and the money to do so in these days, to build houses even if they can only build one or two houses here and there as I am doing. Anybody who has tried to perform that duty, especially during the last two years, must agree with me that every effort made by successive Governments to solve this problem has undoubtedly accentuated the problem almost to an indefinite extent.

Take the first effort, that associated with the name of Dr. Addison, although of course the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is really the responsible person. That effort produced a complete corner in the building trade market. It produced a corner in labour, and a corner in materials, and the result was that, if it had been allowed to continue, it would have put up the prices of the houses built under that scheme to an indefinite extent. It did put them up to a price which was 2½ to 3 times what the price need have been at that period. But, fortunately— and I claim a little credit for this—some of us managed to get together and make an end of the crazy scheme known as the Addison scheme. No sooner had we frightened the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, no sooner had we acted on that celebrated occasion just before Christmas when we got another place to turn down that ridiculous Measure, than the prices began to fall. The building trade know the game was up and that no longer were the taxpayers to be handed over to them bound hand and foot to be fleeced. The prices were falling; all through that spring after the first attack we made on Dr. Addison, and after the first time we were able to check his ridiculous scheme, preceding his actual fall from office by a matter of several months. Through those months, the cost of building went down gradually on these municipal houses until eventually we decided that this reform might be hastened a little, and so got rid of Dr. Addison altogether, and within a period of a very few weeks prices dropped by as much as 50 per cent. on municipal houses in Lancashire.

Surely, when they have a thing as plainly before them in practice as that, hon. Members might inquire whether there is not something in what I have been saying all the time, namely, that if you introduce into a short market—the building market was a short market at the time, there being a shortage of material and labour—a customer who is determined to buy to any extent, no matter what the price, and who has apparently endless resources, then you make a complete corner, and the price never ceases going up until that corner is broken by one means or another. What the right hon. Gentleman, the present Minister, did last year was to restore, to a certain extent, artificial prices for building. During the interregnum when things were left to go on, prices were going down splendidly month my month, at first faster and then becoming rather slower. All those engaged in the building trade knew perfectly well before the introduction of the 1923 Act, that if only the Government could be persuaded to keep its meddling fingers out of the pie, we could have got working-class houses at an economic cost. It was coming nearer and nearer week by week. I had a scheme myself, for 24 houses all ready to be gone on with at once. I was ready to start building as soon as the natural tendency of prices to decline made itself felt, and I could get 4½ per cent. or 5 per cent. on my capital outlay, and then, to the dismay of everybody who was really interested in these things, the right hon. Gentleman, the present Minister of Health, came along and shoved up the price by £60 to £75 per house.

It is absolutely heart-breaking to see the way in which one Government after another prevents the housing problem from being solved. If the building trade can build houses and sell them at £400, and if it is offered another £60 or £100, you cannot expect ordinary human beings in business not to accept the greater amount. They have done so on every possible occasion. Had the right hon. Gentleman given a subsidy of £5 per house then the rise in cost would have been £5 above what it would have been without that subsidy. Had he given £500 per house then the rise in cost would have been £500. In other words, the policy of one Government after another has simply been to accentuate difficulties by raising the cost of houses, but I think the acme of absurdity was reached by the late Minister for Health who, having passed a Bill to induce the building of more houses by increasing the price of houses, then proposed to pass another Bill to prevent the rise in prices from taking place. I think we may describe that as the acme of all the absurdities that have been perpetrated by successive Governments in this matter.

So much for the main question. But this afternoon we have listened to speeches on various matters of detail, and again we find the extraordinary atmosphere which always surrounds a Debate on housing in this House—an atmosphere of utter unreality. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, one after another, get up here and talk in a way in which they would be ashamed to talk if they were in private conversation outside this House. For instance, we are told that the labour shortage is going to be solved by up-grading the building trade labourer. Then an hon. Member behind me informs us that the number of building trade labourers on the Employment Exchange books is very high, and that there is a big reservoir of building trade labourers to draw from, and that they can be up-graded and made into bricklayers and plasterers. It has never dawned upon that hon. Member or other hon. Members who say the same thing that the reason why there is such a large number of building trade labourers on the unemployment books is that if a man describes himself as a building trade labourer he can ask for a much higher wage than if he describes himself as a labourer of any other sort. If a skilled engineer in my own district goes on the unemployment list as a skilled engineer, he would be obliged to accept a wage of 56s. 6d. for a 47-hour week, that being the trade union rate of skilled engineers in my district. But in some districts, if he describes himself as a building trade labourer, he need not accept the pittance given to a skilled engineer, and, naturally, the books of the Employment Exchanges are simply bulging with the names of gentlemen who describe themselves as building trade labourers.

There is another point about this upgrading. Anybody who has taken part in the building of small houses knows perfectly well that it is the most difficult thing in the world to make anything whatever of the ordinary building trade labourer except a building trade labourer. I do not wish to be unkind to a very admirable and excellent class of men, but I am afraid it very often happens that when a man has been employed as a building trade labourer for a little time he discards almost all forms of human intelligence, and, generally speaking, decides that it would be more comfortable never to think again. It is extraordinarily difficult to make a building trade labourer into a skilled craftsman, but it is easy to make an intelligent young man into one. My own experience is that taking a young man who is intelligent and willing, and giving him every opportunity, it is possible for him within 10 to 12 months to be qualified as a bricklayer on cottage work. Of course, that applies to a young fellow who is intelligent and willing, but, thank Heaven, we have plenty of them in this country. The question is: Will it pay the ordinary building trade employer to do this? If it does not pay the building trade employer to do it, the building trade employer is not going to do it, and there is an end of the matter. Therefore, all our beautiful talk about up-grading the labourer and inducing more apprentices to enter the trade is useless, because the problem depends upon what the building trade employer thinks is good for himself and his own pocket. He is going to act in accordance with that, and not in accordance with the theories of hon. Members of this House.

One final point on the question of new method. I am interested in this subject as one who went to considerable expense and trouble in 1919 experimenting with new methods. The methods which I went in for are those which are being put forward by an hon. Member of this House at the present time as a great novelty. The idea was to build a workshop with proper travelling cranes, overhead equipment, plenty of accommodation and artificial light enabling work to be carried on night and day and in winter as well as summer; that there should be a standardised design of houses, and that there should be cast in one piece, say, the whole side of a house, which could be transferred by motor transport and dumped down on the selected site. What I was brought up against at once was that the actual cost of doing this, even making allowance for bulk production and standardised design, was actually then—and I believe it still is—higher than the cost of building houses in the ordinary way with bricks and mortar. The reason is the price of cement, the most important ingredient in the whole scheme, is at a very artificial level. Hon. Members know why that is so. It would be invidious of me to say why. In the building trade we know why the price of cement is at an artificial level at the present time.

The whole point, in my experience of building, is that there is no better or cheaper method of building working-class houses than by bricks and mortar. Bricks and mortar are cheaper and better. But you cannot build working-class houses at a reasonable price if the number of bricks per day is to be limited to the amount which the late Minister of Health specified. It is to be remembered that the Gentleman who was then hon. Member for Withington, Mr. E. D. Simon, informed us he had calculated it out on the basis upon which the late Minister of Health had calculated it out, and found he had allowed for a skilled brick setter laying about 275 bricks per day. If that is going to be the amount of work turned out for the present rather artificial wages, it is utterly impossible to build houses of bricks and mortar at anything like economic cost. There are scores, and probably thousands, of bricklayers up and down this country at the present time doing an honest day's work, as Englishmen usually do if they are not fooled about by the Government, and I venture to say that there are thousands of bricklayers at the present time working on ordinary cottage property and laying from 800 to 900 bricks a day on the average. I have got them working myself, and I know they are working on neighbouring schemes at the same rate, but if the Government come along and say the number of bricks to be laid per day per bricklayer may be calculated at 275, as the late Minister of Health did say, naturally, being law-abiding citizens and supporters of the Constitution, they reduce their output in order to suit the views of the Ministry of Health. I do not wish to take the time of the House too long, but the temptation, when the opportunity offers, to say, "I told you so," is one which I am afraid I, for one, cannot resist.

I am going to apply myself to dealing with the question of housing as it affects Scotland, and I have one or two queries which I wish to address to the Secretary, first, with regard to the cost of housing in Scotland; secondly, with regard to the proposal to reduce the standard of accommodation in the houses that are to be erected, as I understand the new policy is to be; and, thirdly, with regard to what they are going to permit in the matter of density per acre. With regard to the cost of houses, whatever may be the experience in England, it is intensified in Scotland. As to the room-and-kitchen house, which is peculiar to Scotland and which is the predominating class of house in Scotland, the estimates that were coming in during this year showed that these houses, in the main, could not be erected for less than £500. [An HON. MEMBEB: "For two rooms?"] Yes. If my information is correct, as supplied to me by the officials of our own Department and by the local authorities, a £500 house requires a rental of £47 10s. in order to be an economic rent. Taking the subsidy of £13 10s. annually, that reduces that house to £34, but on top of that the tenant has to pay rates, so that for a room and kitchen house in Scotland to-day, on the figures as supplied to us of over £500—that is the all-in cost— that house was at a prohibitive rental for the working class, With regard lo the three-roomed and the four-roomed house, the figures worked out at somewhere between £600 and £700 per house, making it impossible for us to permit those houses to go on. I should like to know what steps the Government are going to take with regard to this particular position, that obtains so much worse in Scotland than in England.

Again, in Scotland there is another item that adds to the cost of the houses. We have built over 20,000 houses under the various schemes in Scotland—at the moment, I believe, it is something like 26,000—but on the 20,000 houses we incurred and paid to architects and surveyors over £1,000,000, which represents on each house, on the average, a cost of £4o. That means an annual addition to the rent of something like £4, which must be met, and I should like to know what steps the Government propose to take to eliminate this exceedingly high cost that is added on to the production of the houses. Until these matters have been dealt with, you cannot proceed to provide the houses that we require in Scotland. Now we are at another point in the development of housing in Scotland. In Glasgow to-day we have reached that stage when builders are not making offers. There is now no competition. For the last proposal of the Glasgow Corporation they had, I think, only two offers made to build their houses, and they suspect, perhaps unjustly, that the usual ring is now being formed for the purpose of eliminating competition and getting the highest price possible. I should like to know what the Government are going to do, or if they have any proposals to deal with the various points that I have mentioned.

With regard to cheapening the cost by using other materials, we have heard various proposals made, some of them to-day, not original, but we have got in Scotland this year, on the part of the building materials, in nearly all kinds of materials connected with houses building, this position: Bricks that were produced, and a profit made on them, in 1913 at £;1 per 1,000, in January of this year were being sold at 42s. To-day I was informed that quite recently members of the building trade could not get them even at 52s., that for bricks laid down on the job they were paying over 70s. per 1,000 in many cases, and that the price for bricks at the works was not less than 52s., an increase of something like 10s. between January and September of this year. They are taking full advantage of the situation, and I would like to know what proposals you are going to make to deal with that situation. You cannot deal with it, as I believe, merely by saying that you will allow competition to have play. Competition has disappeared, as the scarcity is so great. In Scotland all the bricks that we can supply—the whole production—just now is not sufficient to meet the annual requirements in house building alone. From 200,000,000 to 220,000,000 bricks is the annual output of Scotland at the moment, and if we apply that to housing alone there are not sufficient to meet the annual requirements, but we cannot do that because of the necessity of alloting at least a percentage of that amount towards the other, if not so absolutely necessitous, equally important requirement of providing for extension of workshops, etc.

With regard to Lord Weir's house, I had the pleasure of visiting that immediately after his first house was built, and I am satisfied, whatever others say, that in Lord Weir's scheme we have got something that would be of considerable help towards dealing with the situation. It may be true—I have no knowledge—that it will be a house that, so far as externals are concerned, will be very costly to maintain, that it will require painting frequently, that the steel will corrode, and that it will give way much more quickly than the ordinary brick or rough-cast house will do. It may be that in other directions, externally, it may be deficient, but, so far as the house itself was internally concerned, so far as hygienic properties, air and sunlight, were concerned, it was as good as anything that I know of that has been erected in our vicinity. So far as the internal equipments were concerned, it was as good as the best of any previous scheme of house building that had been taking place, but note what Lord Weir's object was to do. He was to build a higher standard of housing for the working class.

That house is a three-roomed house of the bungalow type, and he was to build it at a cost that would allow of its occupation by the low paid labourers, the many thousands in Glasgow to-day who are working in his works, as in other works, for a wage, for a full week's work, of 37s. and 38s. per week, where the engineer, the skilled engineer, has not that £2 16s. of which we heard a moment ago, but £2 14s. per week, off which there is insurance money, off which there are other charges, trade union charges, etc., to be met, and the engineer working a full year round can reckon only on a 48 week. The engineer's wage of to-day, in the case of a man who is fully employed, does not reach nearly £2 10s. a week. Lord Weir was to meet his demand, his requirement, at a price that he could afford to pay.

During my term as Under-Secretary for the Board of Health, Lord Weir got an offer from the Middle Ward of Lanark to build 74 houses. The price worked out, all included, land, sewers, building, and making up roads, etc., at £508, an absolutely prohibitive price. It meant an economic rent, according to the figures that I have already given, of about £49 per annum, or at least £48, something that rendered them impossible for the working classes to pay. Since then, after an interview I had with Lord Weir, the price was reduced, owing to the quantity of 74 houses that the Middle Ward was taking, by something, if my memory serves me aright, like £75, and even taking £75 and reducing the figure to £450, an all-in cost, how is that labouring man, or that ill-paid engineer, that artisan who is our pride, to occupy a house and pay a rent of something like 13s. a week, even if we get the rent reduced with the subsidy to something like £22 or £24, and then on the top of that to have about 9s. in every £ placed on him for rates, meaning that his rent of £24 becomes a rent of something like £33–13s. a week, fully, to pay? How is he going to do that? If that is all that Lord Weir can do—and I do not believe it is; I believe that he will improve on these methods, but unless he can make a very considerable reduction—even allowing for the subsidy that is given by the 1924 Act, you are going to reach no solution of the housing question.

The slum-dweller in Scotland is a feature so common that he is hardly noticed. In Glasgow, out of its 235,000 houses, there were 13,000, not to-day, but in 1911, that were condemned by the medical officer of health as absolutely unfit for human habitation, and every one of those houses, with the exception of a very few, are in existence in 1924, and every year adding to their number, because of the ever-lowering standard and the ever-increasing overcrowding that is taking place. We have got to deal with the slum question. How are you going to build houses, even with the subsidy, that people can afford to pay? I would like someone to answer that question.

Let us come to the standard of housing as it obtains in Scotland. We have 1,057,000 houses in Scotland; 52 per cent. of them are either single-apartment or two-apartment houses. In Glasgow, as in Dundee, 67 per cent, of these houses—the Census gives 66 per cent., but the true percentage, I believe, is 67—are either single-apartment or room and kitchen houses. Over 62 per cent, of the people of the second city of the Empire live in these houses, for over 40,000 of them are single apartments, and 113,000 room and kitchen houses, and if the report in the "Glasgow Herald" of a week or so ago is correct, you are proposing to perpetuate this standard by allowing one-half of the total number of houses to be built of the room and kitchen type, and then, as the "Glasgow Herald" goes on to say, you will give special consideration to the necessities as they arise in each particular case. That, as I understand it, is the mew policy in dealing with housing. But we are not so bad in Glasgow as they are in Lanarkshire. In Motherwell, Wishaw, Airdrie, Coatbridge, over 70 per cent, of the houses are either of single apartment or two-apartment type, and you are going to keep that inevitable.

I would appeal to my fellow-countrymen, who know the situation, though some not so well as I know it. I know it in the fullest degree. I have lived there. I have been bred there, and I know exactly what it means. That is an education of which most Members of this House have, in many respects, fortunately, been deprived, but I, because of my experience, can speak with better knowledge as to the conditions under which my fellow-citizens and my fellow-countrymen live. I would beg of the Secretary for Scotland to put his face absolutely against the proposals that, apparently, are going to be made in his name and in the name of improved housing. It has been stated in this House before that the Royal Commission, which sat from 1913 onwards, reported that there were, in 1917, 121,000 houses immediately required to keep up with the existing standard, and to meet the new standard that was in the minds of everyone before the War, 235,000 house were required. All the houses that have been built since 1919 to the 31st October were 26,000. There are under construction another 9,000 houses, and another 12,000 are being contemplated to meet this ever-increasing necessity. To keep the standard almost as it is, Scotland requires 10,000 houses annually. That would mean over 300,000 houses in the next 15 years, but on the improved standard we want, not 300,000 houses, but at least 500,000 within the next 15 years.

Let me refer to the cost of the neglect of housing. I will compare one city that is in some degree comparable with Glasgow—I mean the City of Birmingham. Glasgow has a population, I think, of 1,034,000; Birmingham has one of 919,500 Birmingham has an acreage of 43,000, and Glasgow 19,000. Birmingham's density per acre is 21, and Glasgow's 56. The average number of rooms per house in Birmingham is 4·6, and in Glasgow 2·7. That means that Birmingham has double the amount of rooms for its population that there is in Glasgow. Glasgow, again, has nearly two persons, on the average, occupying each room; Birmingham has less than one. And what do we pay? In 1921—and I am quoting these figures, not because they are favourable figures, but because they are the figures I have got through the medium of the Health Department of Glasgow, and are the latest figures that are available at the moment—in 1921 the deaths in Birmingham were 11,212 and in Glasgow 17,847. Birmingham's infantile death rate was 86 per thousand, and Glasgow's 120. Phthisis in its various form was responsible for 1,961 deaths in Birmingham, and 3,004 in Glasgow. Deaths from tuberculosis in Birmingham were 1,049, and in Glasgow 1,568. In Birmingham the gross amount spent on health administration was £264,000; in Glasgow, £548,000. Birmingham spent on tuberculosis £90,000; Glasgow, £220,000. As I pleaded with this House in the first speech that ever I made here, if you capitalised the difference between Birmingham and Glasgow, £230,000, how much would it do to provide a better standard of housing?

English people know nothing of the standard of housing in Glasgow. There is some talk about the class war. I hate the idea of a class war as much as any man in this House, but a class war is there; you have to recognise it, and we are not the people who are making it. I have never yet in my speeches fostered or in any way helped to develop the idea of class war, but the fact remains that the circumstances are creating it. You have given us sufficient education to make us understand that there is something rotten in the State of Denmark. It may be that people do not grasp all the complexities of the situation, but they realise in Glasgow they are living in some parts 1,000 people to the acre, that they are living in those slums, as the Under-Secretary knows, where neither light nor air penetrates, where the only playgrounds for the children are obnoxious backyards, the gutter, the damp stairhead, where men and women suffer from tuberculosis twice as much in single apartments as in three-roomed houses. They know these things now, and you, by your Press, are letting them know the contrast on the other side. They take up the "Daily Sketch" or the "Daily Bulletin" or any of the other illustrated papers, and they see people at Nice, Cannes and other places living in luxury, and the iron is eating into their soul.

7.0 P.M.

We stand here, I honestly believe, as the bulwark against revolution. We stand here pleading for the people, whom we ask to believe that with the machinery of Parliament, by constitutional means, we can bring about a change. It is because I believe we can do it that I am pleading here, not as a party man, but as a citizen of my country, as one of the common people pleading with you to recognise that in these housing conditions there is the canker that is eating, and ever eating, deeper and deeper into the soul of the nation. Are you willing to continue to spend money rather on hospitals and on sanatoria, which are producing no good result, as you know? The average life of every man or woman who goes into a sanatorium is five years. After eighteen months, the benefits of the hospital or sanatorium have entirely disappeared, and in five years those people are gone, and you are spending over £2 per week on maintenance providing them with bright wards, and everything that science and humanity can provide after they have contracted tuberculosis. We are here to-day pleading to you not to treat this as a party question. I do wish my country- men would keep party out when dealing with this the greatest evil that afflicts our country at the present moment. If you do not, then the price will have to be paid some way, and paid in a way perhaps that this country has never known in its history—in a way that has been referred to in the last few days as having occurred in Russia and in France in 1789 to 1792. What happened there may happen here. I ask you, not because of threats, but because the thing is urgent to deal with it generously, quickly, and in a way that will solve that which is in my opinion the cruellest thing that can be inflicted upon a long-suffering people.

The speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down will have been received with sympathy in every part of the House. I am quite certain that every Member of the House feels that the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) who is always interesting, led nowhere, because, having criticised the action of the present and the former Minister of Health, he can bring forward no suggestion for supplying houses. After all, the supply of houses is the one thing that matters. I hope that not only on those benches opposite, but throughout the House the tendency will be manifested and will grow and that determination will be shown to treat this housing question as it really is, an emergency question that has got to be dealt with in the same way that we dealt with emergency questions in the War. The hon. Gentleman opposite referred to the cost of dealing with this matter. I venture to suggest to him that money cannot solve it. It is not a question of money; it is a question of additional hands and of additional brains—willing hands and willing brains. We have too many idle hands at the present time, and, without in any way infringing upon the capacity of the building industry to carry out the very important work they have got to do, it is possible with the co-operation and collaboration and encouragement, mainly of hon. Gentlemen opposite, to secure, I fervently believe, an immense increase in the number of houses. But it has got to be looked upon as an emergency problem. It is no use waiting, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley suggests, till the price of brick houses comes down or until you get brick houses. That is no good.

I was surprised at the late Prime Minister referring to various grey spots on the country side, by which, I think, he intended to indicate these emergency houses. I venture to suggest that no spot is so grey as our slums. If we consider this problem as an emergency problem and frankly treat it as such, we can achieve two objects. I have had something to do with one particular stamp of emergency house. There are many others I have no doubt whose experience is the same in this kind of work. According to our calculations, we would employ one-and-a-quarter man per annum per house, the subsidy for which is £75, which is about what a man with a family would be paid unemployment benefit. I do not like to use the word "dole." Not only should we save the contributions paid by the State as unemployment benefit, but we should be helping the man to be doing an essential part of national work. If we proceed upon the lines that all that need be provided is a subsidy, we shall not achieve our object. If we will accept the position as we accepted the position in regard to the need for bridging the gap in the unemployment benefit, we shall achieve our object. That gap had to be bridged and was bridged by the assent of all sections of the House. This gap in the housing question is a gap to be bridged, and if it is treated as an emergency question and supported by all sections of the House, I have little doubt that great progress will be made in achieving a solution of this great question.

I am sure that the whole House listened to the speech of the hon. Member for the St. Rollox division (Mr. Stewart) with a considerable amount not merely of sympathy but of agreement at his picture and contrast of the conditions in Scotland in regard to housing. I do not want to detain the House at any length to-night, but I would like to join issue with the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir J. Baird), who said it was not a question of money at all, but a question of the problem of labour to provide the necessary hands to build the houses. In Glasgow, we can see houses being built wherever we go, but, even if the Minister of Health had all the powers that the Home Secretary has with his Mussolini touch given in, even if he could commandeer labour as much as he desires, he could not build houses as rapidly as the Home Secretary would dream of them being built. Even if he built them, even after he had built the houses people could not occupy them, because the grant or the subsidy given by the Government is either too small or the wages they are receiving are too low. So far as the slum dweller is concerned, they might as well not be built at all.

In Glasgow, since 1919, we have built over 6,000 houses. They are not reaching the problem which the Secretary for Scotland would desire. They are largely occupied by school teachers, civil servants, and Members of Parliament, if you like. I think that as long as I am in this House that type of house is good enough for me, but I ought to fight and try to get them for everybody else. My point is this: Houses are being denied, they are being refused, to the very people to whom the problem is most urgent. You cannot ask for rent at the present time or, as the Secretary for Scotland points out, an average rent of 15s. to £l a week. These people simply cannot pay it. It is a libel on my country and a libel on my city to say that in Scotland they do not want to pay rent. I represent a part of Glasgow. I am a native of the city. My parents were natives before me, and during the whole of the time we have paid rent and done our best to meet our obligations. But there comes a time when the force of economic circumstances will not let you meet your physical wants of food and clothing and rent at the same time. That is the position in Glasgow. I would like to see a Member of this House with a total income of 28s. who could maintain a family of two at the present cost of living and pay the rent of 8s. per week.

Yes, in the days before the War. My father brought us up on 30s. a week. People to-day cannot even meet the rent that is asked for the new houses Here I want to emphasise a point which ought to be driven more sharply home both to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and the Scottish Secretary. I have been reading the "Glasgow Herald," and from it I see the Member for Kelvingrove (Captain Elliot) seems to be taking almost a delight in the fact that the new Scottish Office is going to have more two-apartment houses in Scotland than they formerly had. In short, out of the new houses they are going to build they are going to allow a far larger percentage of two-apartment houses than was previously allowed. I want to appeal to English Members. There is not a single English representative of a city who would come here and demand for his town or borough that more two-apartment houses ought to be built in their areas. I listened to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson). He criticised what he thought was the lowest standard, or the supposed lowest standard, of houses of the last Minister of Health in regard to Birmingham and? Glasgow. In Birmingham, you have only 4,000 two-apartment dwellings in the whole of the city. In Glasgow, we have 10 times that number. In Birmingham you have few houses of one room; in Glasgow you have over four times the number in Birmingham. The progressive new Tory policy is to make that number greater than it has been I want to suggest to the Scottish Secretary and to the Under-Secretary—who really are lovable persons when one comes into contact with them—they doubtless have children, or at least the Scottish Secretary has—and every one of us, I think, desires well for the children.

I have entered into married life and into a new home. If it is my privilege to have a child I would not allow that child, if I could possibly help it, to be born in a single-apartment house or a two-apartment dwelling. The Scottish Secretary and the Under-Secretary are going to ask the people of Gorbals to inhabit what they would not ask their own children to inhabit. It is not fair. It is not good enough. They ought to carry out in their ordinary policy in human affairs and in their political life what they would carry out to their own children in private. I want to enter a protest with all the strength at my command, with all the feeling I possess, and in the strongest possible fashion against any increase in the already too many small houses in our great cities in Scotland. Let me also for a moment deal with certain criticism in the last Parliament to which I was subjected by a member of the Liberal party. It is an impression which I might as well now correct. It was said then that Glasgow has largely a population of people who drink heavily, and are Irish in origin. That is the common opinion held, and because it is the common opinion I want to say something about it.

I was born in my division. I was schooled in it. I was reared in it. Adjacent to my division, and less than a penny car ride, is the division of Cathcart. The death-rate amongst the children there is one for every four in my division. A couple of years ago it was put forward in argument that the reason why some, at all events, of this happened, and that the death-rate amongst the children was not so high in England as it was in Scotland, was that the climate in England was much better than the climate in Scotland. But nobody can say that the difference between Cathcart and Gorbals—less than a penny ride distance—is due to any difference in the climate! Therefore, I want to put it: Why is it that the deaths among children is four times greater in Gorbals than in Cathcart? If there is one thing, I agree, that brings us all together, rich and poor, Catholic and Protestant, Jew and Gentile, which I have seen in Gorbals and in Cathcart, East and West alike, it is this: that any man or woman given the privilege of parenthood, that man or woman, poor and it may be a slum dweller, wants, almost without exception, to see the child grow up a helpful, able, and strong citizen. That is common to all of us, to all types, and I ask that we shall not have in Gorbals our children dying at a rate four times greater, because the children are loved there just the same as elsewhere. We do not want to go back in these matters—and there seems a danger of it—to worse standards than before the War.

It may be that two-apartment houses are an improvement on single-apartment dwellings. The latest figures for Glasgow show that more than three occupy each room. In my division, and in that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Captain Elliot), the average works out at about four or five. For the whole of Glasgow the average is, say, three. In my division the average is five. Take it at four. Just imagine four grown-up people in one room. Imagine what it means. I attended a funeral in my constituency not long ago. It was from a single kitchen-dwelling. There were seven persons living there. There was a woman of the household who cooked and washed and cleaned with the others about, and for three days beside the dead body. I have the Secretary for Scotland's permission to mention his division, because they think I am the Member for the division, and not my right hon. and gallant Friend. But people know me better, I suppose. There is part of his division that, when I was a lad, was called "No Man's Land." In some of the houses you go up the stairs and, as a concession and to help you to get up the stairs, the gas is left burning all day. Before this concession was arranged you had to grope your way up in the dark. I want to put it to the Secretary for Scotland now that this sort of thing ought to be seen to, that we should aim at a higher standard, and not be driven back to lower standards.

It may be that the problem is one that hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot furnish a solution to, but that is no reason to go back to a lower standard. It is a reason for the Secretary for Scotland and the Under-Secretary using whatever powers they have to circumvent what needs to be circumvented. It is no excuse for lowering our already low standard, and I only hope in this House we will emphasise that.

May I just raise one other point in regard to the housing problem? We have a rent problem in Glasgow. No less than an average of 200 persons appear before the Sheriff's Court regularly in Glasgow, appealing against the judgments obtained against them, and threatened with eviction. I want to put for a moment before hon. Members exactly what happens. One of the first books I read—and many hon. Members have read it too—was "Uncle Tom's Cabin." That book touched the Christian conscience and led to the freeing of the slaves. I wish I could get hon. Members to see that in Glasgow you have a slavery which is the nearest approach to what we read of in the book to which I refer—the picture of a slave market. I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland to try and do something in this matter. I interviewed the chairman of the house-owners, who is a constituent of mine. He agreed that it is totally impossible for a man with a wife and family with 28s. per week to meet their ordinary current rent for the week—he is agreed upon that—it is impossible to ask them to do it, and to provide food, clothing, etc. I want to put it to the Secretary for Scotland that this is a problem which is raising a new aspect of the housing question. The evictions are going on each day. The people have to live and, therefore, they are driven to crowd the already overcrowded dwellings. I want, in conclusion, to ask what the House is going to do in connection with this great problem which is facing us in Glasgow and many places round about that area? We are told that we have to accept a new form of policy from the Conservative party. I had an idea that the Conservative party were going to try to apply new ideas. In this connection I would appeal to the younger members of the Conservative party who, if they are sincere in what they have said, will try to do something. I want to suggest that we in Scotland, in these matters, if we are not treated any better than England, should not be treated any worse. In most things, education, etc., I think we are fairly well advanced. In housing there is something to learn from most of the English towns. I trust that by the end of the time the party opposite may occupy the seats they do that Scotland will undergo a process of amelioration, and that Scotland will be made a safe place for the men and women of the future to be born into.

It is through no lack of appreciation, if I may say so, of the speech which has been just delivered that I wish to turn the House to quite another aspect of the housing problem in Scotland, and although I may talk, I hope, for only a very few minutes, I want to say at the beginning that there is a problem that, so far as I know, has hardly ever been mentioned here, and so far as legislation is concernd, no attempt has ever been made to deal with it. I mean the problem of housing the agricultural workers in Scotland. This is a special problem with features of its own. What I am going to try to do is to show to the House those features, because unless we realise what are the features of the problem, any attempt to deal with the problem properly will be a failure.

A feature of the life and housing of the permanent workers in Scottish agriculture is this: that for their housing they pay no rent. They, therefore, fall under neither categories mentioned to-day. They are neither owners of their houses nor are they rent-paying tenants of their houses. Therefore, from the outset the problem is a special one, and I believe— and I venture to put this view before the Minister of Health for Scotland and the Secretary for Scotland—it is a problem which you cannot deal with by subsidies. A subsidy, as I understand it, presupposes a rent of some sort. I believe that if we are to deal satisfactorily with a problem which affects the life of a large number of the permament agricultural workers in Scotland, the Conservative Government will have to face up to the fact that a capital grant will be necessary, and the House will have to devote itself to the problem of seeing how that grant can be most economically used and to making certain that the advantages of it shall not get into the wrong hands.

Of the seriousness of the problem of rural housing no one who knows rural, lowland, agricultural Scotland has any doubt, and I do not propose to emphasise that point, because I am quite sure the Secretary or Scotland is well aware of the extent to which the housing of agricultural workers in Scotland requires improvement. But there are two sides to the problem. First, many of the existing houses are in a hopelessly bad state of repair, judged by modern standards. The other side of the problem is that there are not enough houses for married men, with this widespread result, that whereas there is plenty of actual housing accommodation for young unmarried men in what we call "bothies," when the time comes for agricultural workers to marry, a large number of them have to leave their agricultural work, at which they are amongst the most skilled men in this country, and crowd into the towns and get some unskilled jobs there. If the hon. Member for Dundee were here, he could fully corroborate what I say on that point, because I have some small knowledge of this question in the neighbouring county of Perth, and I know very well the constant evil of agricultural workers who desire to marry leaving the country dis- tricts in which they were born and bred and crowding into Dundee, accentuating a problem which is already difficult enough there.

This problem has two sides, the improvement of existing houses and increasing the number of houses, and I suggest that the Government should face the necessity of giving a capital grant, with adequate safeguards, for the improvement of existing houses and for the building of further houses in the country districts. If there is some more economical and better method, so much the better, but so far as I can judge from a few years' experience of this particular topic, once you begin to try to adapt the subsidy method to this particular problem, you will find you are offering no inducement to either the landlord or the farmer to build houses, because no additional rent of any sort will be obtained from these houses. It is not because a capital grant seems such an easy solution that I advocate it. In no housing debate, I think, would any person rise and say, "Let us have a capital grant and the problem is solved." I suggest it because I believe that with this particular problem, the problem of the house for which nobody pays rent at all, nothing but a capital grant will be any solution. I would remind the Minister of Health that when the problem of labourers' cottages in Ireland came up, about 1899 I think, a capital grant was the system adopted, even though some small, if perfectly illusory, rent was extracted for those cottages. Here there is no question of rent, and I believe the case for a capital grant is fully made out, because there is no alternative.

This is not a mere local problem, confined to one parish or one county. It varies in intensity, in various districts of Lowland Scotland. As a matter of fact, I believe that in Perthshire the situation is by no means at its worst, but it is bad enough there. If it is bad where the agriculture is very high, very prosperous and very productive, what must it be in less prosperous districts of Scotland, where these conditions do not exist? I am told, and I have no doubt it is true—I have a good deal of information on the topic—that in the western counties of Lowland Scotland the housing conditions of the people who actually work the land are fully equal in disagreeable features to those which have been so eloquently sketched in respect of Glasgow. In the west I believe the conditions are shocking. Even in the east they are extremely unsatisfactory—I am trying to use moderate language—and they carry with them this final feature, that they involve the very great social and industrial misfortune that in the country districts, where you breed a strong type of man and woman, the absence of necessary houses and the number of houses in a bad state of repair prevent the proper number of married people living there. These conditions more than counteract the natural healthiness of country life, and the existence of this state of things also accentuates the town problem of overcrowding and unemployment by taking men away from the job at which they are experts, the job of cultivating the land. The Scotch worker on the land, the Scotch farm servant, is second to none in his skill and devotion to his job. You take him from that job, which he thoroughly understands, and you turn him adrift in the streets of Dundee or Glasgow, and then you wonder why the country community is not as prosperous, is not as numerous, is not as happy as it should be.

Without adding anything further to what I have said, I would observe that I have directed my remarks mainly to the Minister of Health, for I know the Secretary for Scotland and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland,. are fully cognisant of the problem. I know how very averse, and how properly averse, any Minister would be from even considering the possibility of giving a free grant to anybody for any purpose at all, but I venture to ask the Minister to consider this problem on its merits, and T believe, if this is not too audacious a prophecy, that if he will consider the problem on its merits he will come to the conclusion, which I for some long time have been forced to come to, that if we are really going to improve and increase the houses for the agricultural workers and farm servants of Scotland, we must adopt the policy which was adopted in Ireland in 1899. Short of that I do not believe we can do much.

Hon. Members opposite may be afraid that this recommendation may involve a dole to the landlords. I start from the position that, in my view, the state of the ploughmen's houses on a Scottish farm has no effect on the rent of the farm, or, if it has any effect, that its effect has been exaggerated. It may have an effect on the purchase price, but on the rent—no. So as to avoid any possibility of disagreement on this point, let me say that of all the elements which affect the rent, the state of the plough men's houses is the very last. First comes the class of soil and the condition of the land; secondly, the steading, the farm buildings; thirdly, the farmer's house; and fourthly and lastly, comes the ploughmen's houses. My own view is that the rent is not affected at all; other people differ from me, and I do not state my view without qualification, but I am sure none will differ from the point, that if you are going to say how much effect on the rent the state of the ploughmen's houses has, you must say it is the last element to be considered, and very often it does not affect it at all. So far as the rent is concerned, I do not believe a capital grant will be a dole to the landlord.

Purchase is a different consideration. If a landlord sells an estate upon which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Health and the Secretary for Scotland have, between them, put up a sufficient number of new ploughmen's houses, then, I agree, the state of those houses will affect beneficially the price he gets. That position should be dealt with. It can be easily dealt with. Give a period of life to the house, with an annual depreciation. If the sale takes place 15 to 20 yeans after the houses were built, then annul so much of the value, and let the seller, on selling, repay to the Treasury the balance of value that is left in the house. I am not going into this point, but I give that merely as an example to show that I believe that alongside a capital free grant you can make proper provisions to see that the grant has not benefited anybody it was not intended to benefit. I hope the Minister of Health will take this into consideration. Although I cannot speak) and although I do not pretend to speak, for the rest of the Scottish Members representing Scottish counties, I beg to remind the House and the Government that there is at present a clear and strong majority of Unionist Members representing the Scottish counties. The burden of responsibility is on our shoulders, it is not on the shoulders of any other parties. We bear the burden of the responsibility in rural Scotland, and I believe that if we tackle the problem properly we can solve it, and make good the responsibility which the people of Scotland have placed upon us.

As I happen to represent a constituency which is a great contrast to the two constituencies which hon. Members above the Gangway represent, I desire to detain the House for two or three moments. The constituency I represent has three unique characteristics. It is the best-housed constituency in Scotland; a greater proportion of the inhabitants own houses and live in their houses than in any other constituency in Scotland; and there are more women than men electors. On their behalf I rise to say, with the greatest emphasis, that we in that constituency recognise as much as any Labour Member in this House that there are black spots in the housing conditions of Scotland, and that we shall do everything possible to back up the Minister in doing what he can to remedy those black spots. There is no difference of opinion between us on any side on this question, and I for one am prepared to support any practical scheme which is submitted from any quarter of the House, because this is the most important social question which can be presented to us in this Parliament even if it lasts for five years.

In the past we have had many great Ministers in this House, and they have all paid some attention to this question. I hope the present Minister of Health, before he leaves office, will make his mark as the greatest Minister for Housing that this House has ever seen. All I can say is that we have unlimited confidence in his ability and common sense, and we shall back him up in any practical schemes dealing with this question which he is able to produce. If it is only a question of the money, I am sure that the people in my constituency are ready to find any amount of money to have the contrast which has been drawn between South Edinburgh and Gorbals put right. They have said to me, "We live in good houses and we want other people in Scotland to live under as good conditions." I can assure the hon. Member for Gorbals that he is not the only one who wishes to see the slums of Glasgow and Edinburgh abolished, but when we are talking of the black spots in Scotland we should not forget the bright spots, and the enormous amount of work done by the councils of Glasgow and other boroughs in Scotland.

At the present time there are 14 schemes in Scotland for the abolition of slums. I have had 40 years' experience in Perth, and I have seen three slums abolished during that time, and they are abolishing another at the present moment. The slums are being gradually abolished, and I think the town councils of Scotland deserve the greatest possible sympathy and support for what they are doing in this direction. When hon. Gentlemen get up here and suggest that nothing is being done they should remember that much is being done, although much more requires to be done. I had the privilege of making a suggestion in this House in a five-minutes' maiden speech some two years ago. My suggestion was to the effect that the Act which was on the Statute Book called the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, which was brought in by the father of the Minister of Health, was not being used, and I suggested that it should be embodied in the Bill which the Government were about to introduce. I do not suppose that it was on account of any suggestion which I made, but at any rate the right hon. Gentleman did use that Act which his father put upon the Statute Book. To-day I telegraphed to the Director of Housing in Edinburgh to see if that Act had been used in Edinburgh and to what extent, and I have received in reply a very encouraging telegram which states that within the last nine months 389 houses are being built under that Act, and they will be inhabited by those who will sooner or later become their owners. More houses will be built but the Town Council of Edinburgh is concentrating its efforts upon the elimination of slums. You must not, however, push a scheme of this kind too far because it takes away labour and the slum problem is one of the greatest which presents itself to this House.

I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that this particular portion of the Small Dwellings Act is not put into operation as much as it ought to be throughout the Kingdom. Some progressive town councils have adopted the Act and some have not, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman in producing a new Bill, will bear this point in mind and take power to put these Clauses into operation himself where town councils have not been sufficiently progressive to do so. This would confer a very great benefit upon a certain class of individuals with a certain amount of money which they are willing to put down for a house in which they will be able to live themselves. That is the practical suggestion which I presume to make, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that so far as I know the opinion of South Edinburgh he has their entire support if he can make any advance on this question of housing and the elimination of the slums of Scotland.

I am very happy to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken. I also represent a constituency in Edinburgh, but it is not quite so fortunately placed as the one my hon. Friend represents. Part of my constituency includes the historic Canongate which so many tourists find great interest in inspecting. I am afraid that if they went behind the scenes and realised the position of the people living there they would not be so much impressed by our historic and beautiful city. I welcome the very kind assurances of sympathy which have fallen from the lips of hon. Members who have spoken. We do not doubt for a moment that every hon. Member of this House is anxious to see a great improvement in housing conditions, but we do say that there is a fundamental difference of principle between hon. Gentlemen opposite and those who sit on these benches upon this particular question. Hon. Members opposite believe that an essential public service like housing can best be accomplished by private enterprise, but we believe that the supplying of houses is a public duty and should be undertaken by the representatives of the community. No amount of sympathy, however gladly we welcome it, can take the place of the carrying out of that important duty.

Special attention has been paid to the conditions prevailing in Scotland, and I think it has been rightly pointed out that Scotland suffers very much more in these matters than England. Our system lends itself to piling people one on the top of the other, and this leads to a condition of density of population in slums which is not comparable with the large industrial towns of England. Figures are difficult to follow. But I would like to point out that 49 per cent of the total population of Scotland live in one-and two-roomed houses. It has been pointed out over and over again that when this question is looked at from a public health point of view it is found that tuberculosis varies exactly according to the density of the population. If you go to districts where you find the greatest density of population there you find the greatest amount of tuberculosis. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) made the statement the other day with which medical authorities generally agree, that if certain measures were taken tuberculosis could be stamped out in a generation. I do not think that point can be too much emphasised.

We all admit the necessity of dealing with the housing problem, and we are agreed that something should be done, but we want to know how to do it. I feel, however, that if the possibilities of improvement were fully realised we could make quicker and more important changes than even the most optimistic suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech contemplate, which I rather think will not contribute very effectively to the solution of this problem for a good many years to come. I think the situation in Scotland requires special treatment because of the tremendous density of the population. I quite realise that there are very great difficulties to face, but to put simply a fringe of villa houses around Edinburgh or Glasgow is not solving the problem. I do not believe that the problem of the slum property has been at all seriously tackled in the great cities of Scotland, and I would like that to be a very important consideration of the Minister of Health.

Some of these people in the slums are very much attached to their houses, miserable as they are, and they are also much attached to the district, and the 'consequence is that it is extremely difficult to shift them. We have the position both in Edinburgh and Glasgow of houses and even whole streets condemned by the medical officer and the Public Health Committee as being unfit for human habitation, and still the people go on living there. What I feel is that, while the problem is difficult, it is not incapable of solution, and I think it is the duty of the Minister of Health and his subordinates to deal with these questions. We know they are sympathetic and anxious to do what they can, and it is their duty to make a very serious study of this problem.

8.0 P.M.

There is another thing I should like to speak about, and it is that the problem is not simply one of getting houses. We are told that so many houses have been put up this year, but what kind of houses are being built? I should like to see in connection with housing schemes a town planning scheme for every area. What has been the result of private enterprise in our towns, and what kind of towns have they produced? What is the result of the fortuitous setting down of houses here and there and everywhere, according to the will of the speculative builder? There is a district in Edinburgh known as Gorgie and Dalry which not long ago was handed over to the mercies of the speculative builder, and we see the result in miles of cheerless and desolate streets, excessive density of population, and lack of necessary open spaces. I am sure that story can be repeated in many other great cities. If local authorities adopted town planning schemes approved by the Ministry of Health they would become like Acts of Parliament, and improved regulations could be framed, I suggest that a compulsory town planning scheme should be introduced as soon as practicable, because we do not want the houses which are being built just now to become a hindrance and a cause of regret in a comparatively short time. I am afraid that many of these houses being built by private enterprise, without regard to the needs of the district and without regard to the future, but merely with regard to the immediate profits of the speculative builder, will cause trouble in future times. Another reason why I prefer house building by municipalities or local authorities under town planning schemes is that greater care can be taken as regards the type of house. At the present time, if a builder goes to the Dean of Guild Court or the equivalent body in England, he has simply to satisfy them that his buildings will not tumble down and that they conform to a few other elementary regulations. But there are many other considerations which he is not required to meet. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the fact that he is giving a greater cubic space than had previously been suggested, and I am sure we are very glad indeed to hear that. He rightly said that he is thinking of the future when requirements would be perhaps somewhat greater than they are now.

But that is only one point. There is the matter of ventilation. We know from experience in this House that ventilation apparently is not an easy matter. But still there are well-recognised authorities on ventilation as well as on other subjects connected with housing. Do we ever utilise the services of these people? The same thing in regard to heating methods. It is well known that there is a great problem in the smoke evil in our cities. It is sometimes thought to be a question of factory smoke or the smoke of public works. It is really mainly a matter of domestic fuel consumption. Would it not be a good thing to provide a scheme of central heating in these houses and some method of heating which would minimise this danger to the community? It is a very remarkable thing that we have in our universities and in our technical colleges lecturers and professors who are teaching students from other lands how houses should be built and all the particulars about ventilation, and so on, and then we are putting up houses which do not conform to the regulations which these authorities lay down as desirable. The same as regards the hollow space in outer walls. That is a very important point, to which I am glad to see most local authorities are now paying attention. But is the private speculative builder paying attention to these things? There has been a discussion in the medical papers lately about the prevalence of tuberculosis in districts which are exposed to the prevalent rain-bearing winds, and it has been found that in these areas tuberculosis is more plentiful. It may seem a rather far-fetched idea, but such houses are subject to a great deal of rain, especially when there is a strong wind, and may become very damp and remain very damp for days on end. We can understand that there may be a certain connection between tuberculosis in these houses and the fact that they have not that hollow outer wall to prevent dampness inside. I think this precaution is regarded as elementary by those who are authorities on building construction, and yet it is not a point which is compulsory in regard to the building of new houses.

These are all very important facts. Since we have actual knowledge of the proper way to build houses, is it not a remarkable thing that we are laying down schemes and carrying them out where the proper things are not being done. We are not looking to the future? We are going on in the same old unscientific, haphazard way that has brought our housing system into the state that it is in to-day. It must be remembered that it is private enterprise which has produced the conditions we so deplore and regret to-day. I am confident that unless public authorities, from Parliament down to the humblest local authority, take a greater interest in this thing and plan it in a scientific way and look to the future, we shall never have any satisfactory solution of this housing problem. I must say that personally I do regret the emphasis on private enterprise by hon. Gentlemen opposite. After all, it is not necessarily in keeping with many of the traditions of their party. Many of the best things which the Conservative party have done in the past—and they have done many good things in the past—have not been done by allowing a free rein to private enterprise. I trust that in this matter they will apply, as much as they can by the Minister of Health, encouragement to progressive local authorities and stimulation to backward ones. There are a good many who require stimulation.

Housing is just in the same position as munitions were. When we found munitions were so necessary in the War, we did not leave them to private enterprise. We realised that if we did we should be in very serious danger. In the same way, we are in serious danger in regard to this housing problem, because the facts of infantile mortality, tuberculosis and many other diseases, show that actually the community, by perpetuating the present system of housing, or by not getting rid of it as quickly as it might, is really responsible for the death every year of thousands of people, including many little children. The figures which the hon. Member for Gorbals and St. Rollox and other hon. Members for Glasgow have given, have been very impressive. It is sometimes thought in the House that the Glasgow Members are very extreme. They have been described as "wild men," but would any hon. Mem- bers in any part of the House representing such constituencies and seeing the condition of these people, not be guilty of a lack of duty if they did not expose these things in this House. I am not justifying intemperance of language, but is it easy to describe these things in temperate language? I do not think it is. What I wonder at in that connection is, not that there is wildness either in the people or in their representatives, but that they are so patient. If we wish to avoid intemperance of language or violence of conduct in any of these people, we must seriously tackle the evils which are being disclosed in the House to-day. I am confident that from the sympathetic spirit which has been manifested on the benches opposite that there will be assistance given by many Members of the Conservative party to those on these benches and in other parts of the House who are so much interested in the solution of this very great problem.

For 20 years pre-War I was engaged in this apparently much maligned trade of speculative building. There are two or three things that have not been really emphasised this afternoon that I would like to emphasise. Although the discussion has had such a nice tone all the time, I think it is necessary that all sides should unite in endeavouring to solve this most difficult problem. As far back as April of this year I had the pleasure of moving a resolution in the city council asking the then Government to unite with the other parties in formulating some scheme that the different councils could accept as being a definite policy, not just of that Government but of all succeeding Governments, at any rate for some time. I am loath to believe that in housing neither speculator nor municipality can settle down to any definite policy. The Debate this afternoon has been received so kindly that one hopes that we shall come to a solution such as we desire in the Bradford Corporation. We want augmentation of labour. There is no question about that. It is mentioned by the Minister of Labour, but that cannot be done if we go very strongly against the trade union element. It will be necessary to ask the trade unions to assist us. When you come to talk about occupier-owners, I do want to ask my friends on the other side to agree with me in this, that instead of putting anything in the way of occupying-owners, we should endeavour to cultivate them in all classes. They do, as we have said more than once here and elsewhere, make good citizens; they have got something that they can look to. Their home is their castle and they are prepared to carry on. I, for one, believe that when you get the private speculative builder back into his job you will get on with housing.

Perhaps I can tell this House that in the city that I come from apparently the difficulty is rather a different one from that in Scotland. To-day the private builder, of course assisted by the subsidy, is giving a semi-detached house, a good one, part stone-fronted, and is delivering it to the buyer for £525—not a two-roomed cottage, but a proper sitting room and a kitchen, a bath on the ground floor in one case and three bedrooms, or in the other case he gives a sitting room, a big kitchen and two bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs. I say that you must have that man assisting the municipality in building houses. If not, you are cutting out a way of competition that is bound to be all to the good. It stops the rising in the price of the finished article and gives you a dwelling at a reasonable price. I have taken the trouble to bring the plans with me, and if any hon. Member is sufficiently interested in housing I will show him what has been done by a private builder in the City of Bradford. He is doing a useful work and I cannot think he is getting a good deal of profit. The man is a working builder, that is to say, he employs men in the course of the work.

A complaint has been made in this House that not sufficient money has been borrowed from corporations and local authorities to prove that there is any demand for purchase. In the district which I have the honour to represent, you will find building societies doing the greatest portion of that work. In fact, I think I am correct in saying that we have in the City of Bradford nine building societies, and, had I known that I should be taking part in this Debate, I could have given the amount of money that is lent by those building societies for the express purpose of assisting men in buying their own houses. There is no question that that method of housing is growing up in Bradford. The thrifty working man is beginning to think that the best thing to do is to invest the balance which the building society demands in his house, so that he can call it his own. In fact, this House will be surprised to know that the building societies in our district will advance more money than the municipality could under the present rules and regulations. On the value of the house as specified by the valuer, they advance 90 per cent, at 5 per cent., and pay the Income Tax.

It is said that the assistance given by the State should go to the person whom it would benefit most. I think I may say in this House without fear of contradiction that the question of housing from the £550 house upwards has more or less been met, or will be met within the next 12 or 18 months, in cities like my own. In the case of people who are below that standard, it is absolutely necessary that every section of this House should do something to help them. I was very much surprised to hear a Member of this House say that 'whatever subsidy was given the cost of the house went up by that figure; that is to say, that, if the subsidy were £100, the cost of the house increased by £100. I do not believe that statement at all. When houses cost £1,100 something of that sort may have applied, but taking the case I have just mentioned, of a £525 house,—a well built semi-detached house—you cannot say that that man is getting any profit out of the subsidy at all. His total cost, apparently, would be £625, and when he charges £525 it comes within the range of most of the bitter-class working people in the City. I was surprised today to hear the late Minister of Health state that, in one municipality, for every £1 borrowed they paid back £3. Where does the other £2 go? Surely we all know, but we ought to be frank enough to say. It goes in interest.

I do not agree with that, because the very people I have been mentioning, who provide the money to buy houses, are working-class people They provide the money for the building societies, and the building societies that I have in mind pay 5 per cent, to the people who place their money with them. The building societies are lending it at 5 per cent. If they are called robbers, it is not going to encourage thrift, and that is one of the points that has brought me to my feet this evening. You cannot say that a man is a robber if he is thrifty and saves his hard-earned money from his wages—not his salary—and puts it out to usury. If he does that you cannot find fault, and if he leaves it there for a sufficiently long time, each £1 does become £3. In fact, we know that if he leaves it at 5 per cent, for 14 years it becomes £2. People ought to know-exactly what happens, and if hon. Members opposite do not believe in interest, I do. If it had not been for a little interest, perhaps I should not have been here, and that may be said of certain people of the other side.

I was surprised to hear one hon. Member say that it took £47 10s. to pay interest and charges for a £500 house. That would not be so in the case of a reasonably built house, for nearly 10 per cent, in the case of a new house is beyond what the builder finds it necessary to pay. This Amendment simply deprecates private enterprise. I have not risen to back private enterprise by itself. I am prepared to give to Members of our own local authorities, whether Liberal, Labour or Conservative, the praise that is due to them. From every side of polities we have men who are enthusiastic on the housing question, and I am hoping to find that that will apply to this House also. I hope that the bitterness which some hon. Members may feel against private enterprise and the private contractor will not warp their judgment, but that they will ask that both may go hand in hand, with a view, not to getting either municipalisation on the one hand or private enterprise on the other, but to keeping in mind the idea of solving the housing question.

It is with some diffidence that I rise to take part in this Debate, and, being a new Member, I claim the indulgence of the House, representing, as I do, one of the divisions of the Borough of Southwark, which is one of the most overcrowded districts in the Metropolis. The figures of the medical officer of health's report show that just under 25 per cent, of the inhabitants of Southwark live in one or two-roomed tenements. I am intensely interested in housing, which is a question of paramount importance to my constituents, and I may be pardoned if I refer on this occasion to a regrettable incident that is no doubt fresh within the memories of most Members of this House. It happened just a few days back, when a child was killed by overlaying. This occurred in one of the smaller houses in Southwark, and the coroner's officer, on trying to make an inspection of the room in this intolerable slum house, had to go up the stairs sideways because he could not walk up frontways. That is just one instance of the conditions that occur in Southwark. In addition to that, the tenant of the house, a poor, illiterate worker, had to pay £5 10s. as premium or key money. The tenant next door, in a miserable hovel, also had to pay £6 as key money. I would respectfully suggest that it is nearly time that our Law Officers, or the proper authorities, prosecuted the usurers who own that property and who illegally bleed the poor people of money.

Another point that I would respectfully submit to the Minister of Health, which in my opinion needs alteration, is the fact that the landlords at the present time charge the tenants 25 per cent., over and above the pre-War rent, for the purpose of decorations and repairs. That is a robbery. These poor people cannot force the landlords to do the work, and they are bound to pay this in the shape of rent. I would respectfully suggest that the Minister of Health should seriously consider introducing a Clause into the Act to make the landlord get a certificate from the proper authority, showing that the work has been done, before he can collect that money. In 15 houses that I myself called at there was not one where the landlord had done any repairs since 1914, and the only decorations which had been done were done by the tenants, who had used a paint brush or put a little paper on the walls themselves. These landlords should be made to^ do the work that they get the money from the tenants for. I read in the Gracious Speech that something was already being done. I should like to be informed what is being done in Southwark. I should like to know what is being done with the 70,000 back-to-back houses, without any through ventilation, in Leeds and Bradford. I should like to know what is being done in Birmingham, where the conditions are appalling, and in Scotland, where 2,000,000 people have to live in one or two-roomed houses. If they can tell me that I will go and see it myself and come back and tell my constituents in Central South- wark that something is being done. Then they will probably realise that while there is life there is a little hope, and very little of it.

Many of the houses in Southwark, it will probably surprise hon. Members to know, are little better than pigsties. I should not like to keep pigs in them. They are really death-breeding slums and the most appropriate name for them would be mortuaries. I am sure hon. Members will agree that slums are no fit nurseries in which to bring up the citizens of this Empire. If this country was threateneed with war we should not hesitate about spending £8,000,000,000 or £9,000,000,000 to protect it. I certainly think we should not spare any expense to house our workers. If a working man or woman does his work he is entitled to a house to live in. The skilled or unskilled artisan does his duty to the country by doing his work, and the country should do its duty to him by giving him a place to live in. He is just as much entitled to a house to live in as the merchants or the professional class or the many drones we have who are more or less parasites on the nation. For the workman is entitled to a place to live in after he has done his work, and it is for that reason that I suggest that private enterprise has broken down. We have had private enterprise up to the present time and the appalling conditions in which our people have to live are the result of private enterprise. If a Government elects to go into office and govern it is its duty to see that the people are governed properly, and its duty as a Government is to see that people are housed. The working people themselves cannot alter the conditions. It is the Government. At present we are governed by a Conservative Government. We have had Conservative Governments for many generations. They have been in and out for over 100 years and that is the reason the people are complaining of their housing conditions. We contend on these benches that the housing conditions of the country are a disgrace to the Empire, and that unless the Government introduce some State scheme for this purpose, it will be impossible to house the people.

I think I have noticed in the speeches to-day a tendency on the part of hon. Members opposite to speak as though we on these benches did not fully share their desire for housing. That is not a correct view of the case. I know that every man on these benches is as anxious as anyone on those benches to have the people properly housed. I myself represent a constituency where, I agree, the housing conditions are very much worse than they ought to be, and I yield to no one on any side of the House in my desire to improve those conditions. The late Minister of Health lays all the blame on private enterprise, and the last speaker has stressed that point, but he forgot a little matter which is of some importance, and that is that, as long as private enterprise was encouraged and left unfettered, houses were provided in sufficient number, but that, in 1909, a party, which is now the smallest in the House introduced legislation which had the effect of discouraging housing by private enterprise. That was in connection with what was called the People's Budget, and the immediate effect of that on private enterprise was that the conditions which we are now deploring were created, if not for the first time, at all events, greatly accentuated. I notice that very few speakers have really paid much attention to the Amendment. Very few of the speeches really back that Amendment. Most of them have been very sympathetic and very pleasant to listen to, speeches with which we, on our side, in the main, are in very great agreement. We do not differ, at all events, I do not—I am only entitled to speak for myself—from the objects which hon. Members opposite aim at. I agree with them. All I differ from is the methods which they adopt to achieve those objects.

I do not think we get much further by simply reiterating what we are all agreed upon, that housing conditions are bad and ought to be improved. My idea is that the more practical line to go upon is to consider how in existing circumstances we can carry out two of the points mentioned in the Amendment, one being the provision of working-class houses at a rent which the workers can afford to pay. That is a very important point which ought to be in all our minds, but it is not met by mere expressions of sympathy. The cost of a house, as I have reason to know, depends very largely upon the method of construction. In Liverpool we have for many years led every other city in the country by a very spirited and a very forward policy of building and we have built a very large number of houses. The best testimony of the work that was done is perhaps to be found in the fact that over 50 deputations from other cities and localities in the country have visited Liverpool to see what we have done, and we have received great compliments.

It may be news to some hon. Members, but I am informed by a competent authority, that during that time every proposal for building any type of house, by any method whatever, was carefully considered, not merely by the then Director of Housing, and the then Chairman of the Housing Committee, but also by a committee of experts, who were thoroughly versed in all branches of building. As an experiment, in order to test the relative values of the different methods, no fewer than 14 different systems were adopted and carried into practice, to see which gave the most satisfactory results. I have devoted a great deal of time to considering these different methods and the costs. I have had the cost per cent, of every item of importance in these houses submitted, to me, and I submit to the House certain conclusions which I have arrived at as the result of a very careful study of these many experiments, which were made on a large scale.

The conclusion that I have arrived at is, that in the present methods of construction there is really very little hope of our being able to provide anything like the number of houses which are required, at anything like the cost which ought to be the maximum. It seems to me that the problem that we ought to be considering to-night is, how can we, in the world as we find it, and with the conditions of this country as they are, produce the largest possible number of houses within a year, at the lowest possible cost? The criticism that I would address to some of the speeches that have been delivered to-day is that, while they may have been admirable and eloquent, they did not carry us very much further in regard to those two great points—how can we get the largest number of houses built in the shortest possible time, and at the lowest cost? There are, as far as I can see, only three directions in which substantial improvement can be effected, and the first is the solution which I would like to see avoided, namely, the increasing of the number of bricklayers by dilution. I hope that solution may be avoided, because I believe that it would be repugnant to the trades-unions. It would also be repugnant to them, I believe, to use influence in order to increase the hours worked per day by the bricklayers, or in order to increase the number of bricks beyond a certain quantity which may be laid by the custom of the trade in a day.

If we are to avoid those things we have to go in some other direction, if we are to get the houses, and to get them at a reasonable price. There are two alternatives to that first, and to me, repugnant solution. The first alternative is to adopt a form of construction by means of slabs or something of that kind which would enable bricklayers, members of trade unions, to build more rapidly, without increasing the effort of building, and without increasing the hours worked per day. After an analysis of the 14 different systems which have been practically tested, I have come to the conclusion, and it is borne out by expert authority, that it is quite possible to use a system of construction in which the unit of building is larger than the brick, and by that means, without extra effort on the part of the bricklayer, to produce a much greater number of houses in the year than are now possible. I am told that, taking an average of the experiments, each bricklayer may now be capable of producing six of the smaller houses in the course of a year. I am told, further, that under an improved system, without greater effort, it would be quite easy for the same man to produce 12 houses. Surely, it is a matter of great importance that we should adopt a method which would enable us to double the total number of houses in a year.

In the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister for Health, reference is made to the necessity for giving increased employment in the subsidiary trades. I would ask any hon. Member how we can increase the employment in the subsidiary trades better than by doubling the number of houses which are erected every year. That would at once help to solve the problem of unemployment. There are among the 14 systems of building to which I have referred, two which run each other very closely. One is the system of which I have just spoken, and the other is the system of what is called the continuous cavity brick house. One disadvantage of a brick house is that if you build a house of bricks you have to plaster it, and we are faced with the fact that although there is a great shortage of bricklayers, there is a greater shortage of plasterers.

Very few people realise how short we are of bricklayers and plasterers. I have had a statement prepared from the official returns in regard to bricklayers, and I have had deducted from that return, the number of bricklayers required for the upkeep and repair of the existing property, the number required for commercial, industrial and other buildings, without which the trade and progress of the country, upon which employment depends, would be greatly reduced, and I find that after deducting the numbers required for these other forms of building the number of bricklayers left for the subsidy houses is entirely insufficient. On precisely the same calculation with regard to plasterers, it will be found that when you have deducted the plasterers required for the upkeep and repair of existing houses and the number required for the construction of industrial, commercial and other buildings, the number left available for subsidy houses is extremely small. Therefore, you come to a bottle-neck. Even if you can get more brick houses built, the fact remains that so long as the house has to be plastered, you come to the bottle-neck, and the completion of the house is delayed through the shortage of plasterers.

That leads me to the last method that I would suggest, if we are to get a greatly increased number of houses, and to get them erected rapidly for occupation. We must encourage—I do not say adopt entirely—in addition to the building of brick houses, the building of a very large number of houses which can be more rapidly produced by the bricklayer, and in which—I believe it is possible, because I know that there are instances of its having been done'—you can dispense with the services of plasterers. That would still leave the plasterers fully employed on the brick houses which were being built simultaneously. I know of houses where not any plaster has been used internally or externally, and those houses have been papered and occupied with comfort by the tenants within an incredibly short time of their completion. That is a very serious point, not only as regards the speed with which the houses can be built and the number of houses that can be produced, but also as regards the cost.

Adoption of the suggestion of the slab form of construction would lead to very great economy in the capital outlay on a house, and it would achieve one of the objects which the right hon. Gentleman has in view in this Amendment, namely, it would tend to reduce the rents of working-class tenants. Again there is the question of unemployment. If we can speed up the number of houses produced in every year, if instead of producing six houses in a year per bricklayer we can have a system which will produce 12 or 15 or more, it must mean more employment in all the allied trades. The proposal would give greater employment, undoubtedly, to a large number of unskilled men, and it would not throw out of employment a single skilled man. Therefore, I ask the Ministry, in considering the matter from a practical point of view, not to forget that they can get, from others better qualified than myself, information which will assist them in carrying out what I know they desire, and that is the erection of a larger number of houses in the quickest possible time at the lowest possible cost, in order that the rents of the working man may be reduced and employment may be increased for many who are now out of work.

I have listened with great attention to the whole of the Debate to-day, and at the outset I want to express my disappointment that the Minister of Health has indicated that it is not his intention to endeavour to get the maximum of benefit from the Act that was passed in August last. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I can draw no other conclusion from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. Already we find that the Minister is not urging the local authorities to put that Act into operation. His attitude is a passive attitude. When that Act was passed it was the intention of his predecessor that the erection of houses should be speeded up. I wish that the Minister had informed the House that it was his intention to get the maximum of benefit from the two Acts, in order that the good work which has already been accomplished in the building industry, by way of breaking down what some people consider to be opposition to the recruitment of further labour in the industry, might be continued. I wish he had made a statement that would have been of assistance to the organisers in that industry Employers and representatives of the operatives have had meetings throughout the country to consider the need for recruiting labour. Generally speaking those meetings have had a considerable measure of success. I am rather dubious now whether the good work already done will not be undermined by the Minister's statement to-day. Statements have been made as to the output of bricklayers and others engaged in the industry. I have been associated with the industry from my apprenticeship days. It is admitted by employers to-day that they have no cause of complaint regarding output.

It is only four years ago that I was sitting on a National Conciliation Board, when the question of output came up for consideration. The operatives on that Board were able to inform the employers of a number of jobs being carried out in London and in the provinces where the output was being impeded because the employers were not supplying the bricklayers with the necessary number of labourers to feed them. The operatives were being blamed for the reduction of output, whereas that reduction was the direct result of unscientific management. The House can dismiss from its mind immediately any idea, of laying a charge against the operatives in respect of their output. As far as improved methods of construction are concerned, the operatives' representatives have already expressed an impartial view. In all probability there is hope in that direction. What the Minister has to bear in mind is that already proposals have been made for improved construction in order to increase output, but those proposals would mean that in many instances you would increase the possibilities of vermin inhabiting the houses. My point is that in considering improved methods of construction you should make sure that the houses will be vermin-proof. It is most important from the health standpoint that you should do so, because that is the great danger which I see in connection with each of the schemes which I have considered and which have been placed before the general public.

The Minister of Health mentioned the subject of giving facilities for grading up bricklayers' labourers in the industry until eventually they became bricklayers. That was an integral part of the agreement made with my right hon. Friend who was Minister of Health under the last Government. There is nothing new in that proposal. The operatives had already accepted the proposal, and the National Committee and the local committees in the various areas were giving close consideration to its possibilities and to putting it into operation at the earliest date possible. In the constituency which I represent a large amount of building is taking place, but the houses which are being erected there by private enterprise are houses with three bedrooms, a parlour, a living room, a kitchen, a_scullery and a bath, and they cost £900 to £950. Those houses will not meet the wants of the people in my constituency who are in the greatest need of housing accommodation. To-day I see in the newspapers that even in the Junior Constitutional Club there are employés receiving wages of 35s. and 37s. 6d. per week. None of those employes could possibly obtain one of these houses in my constituency at such wages. The builders' labourer employed in building the houses could not possibly obtain a house of that character, even assuming that the local authority were prepared to grant 95 per cent, of the money necessary to purchase the house.

9.0 P.M.

Private enterprise cannot supply the need of the hour. In my constituency the local council convened a conference of builders, who were asked if they were prepared to operate the Act of 1924. The builders said they were far too busy to have anything at all to do with that Act. Those builders are too busy erecting houses at £900 and £950 each. There is no hope of getting houses unless the local authority becomes the authority for erecting the houses. We have already had quite a reasonable amount of experience in that connection. In Bradford houses were erected by direct labour, and it is admitted that there was a saving of £45 per house and at that better workmanship and better houses were produced than under private enterprise. Take the experience of the Office of Works. I have the figures submitted to this House in August of this year of the work carried out under the auspices of the First Commissioner of Works in building houses by direct labour. That is a sufficient guide for this Government to go further in the direction of utilising direct labour. In London the Office of Works built A3 and B3 types of houses for £877 and £978 respectively as against £912 and £1,010 asked by private contractors. Direct labour saved an average of £86 per house.

In view of these facts, and seeing that on every hand the evil is admitted and the urgency of the question is admitted, I submit that this House ought to dismiss any prejudice it may have against the employment of direct labour and work these two Acts so as to get the maximum amount of benefit possible from both of them. If we did so, we should give a lead to the country and convince the people that this problem is being approached with a single eye and single purpose and a definite intention of solving it and of wiping party politics entirely out of the consideration of the question. Another fact, which is a very important one in respect to enhancing the price of houses, is the continually increasing price of land, The London County Council to-day has decided to make a purchase of a site in Poplar. A piece of land amounting to three acres, I am given to understand, is to cost £4,750, and five years ago an adjoining site amounting to 12 acres was bought at a price of £800 per acre. I think the Minister of Health ought to take this factor into consideration. Five years ago the land was purchased in Poplar at £800 per acre, and at the present time the council has to pay £1,600 per acre.

But it was an adjoining site. I think this House ought to take power to itself to deal with these enhanced values and to stop anyone exploiting the community as they are being exploited in instances such as this. These are some of the methods that are adopted by private enterprise, which results in the increase in the cost of the houses in this country. In my constituency even those who are speculative builders approach the brickyard with the object of purchasing bricks, and they are informed that bricks cannot be purchased there because they are not building upon the land from which the owner of the brickyard draws rental value every year. He is prepared to supply the bricks to those builders who are building upon his land, but no bricks for the builders who might be building on land adjoining his.

There is a shortage of material as well as of labour, and I want to suggest to the Minister of Health that he has only to take a trip into Kent, even round the Faversham area, and there he will find sites where cement could be produced, but where those factories are shut down to-day by the syndicates which are producing and increasing the price of cement in this country at the present time, and until those syndicates are dealt with, and those yards are opened up that are shut down to-day, we shall not get the material that is necessary to employ the labour that the building industry is prepared to provide by the recruitment of apprentices and the up-grading of the bricklayers' labourers. These factors must be considered, and I wish to conclude with this fact. Only three or four weeks ago a nurse stopped me in one of the main streets in my constituency, and told me that she had been attending a case of childbirth—a family of six, living in one room. The father had to take four of the children with him on to the stairs, and two of the younger children lay at the foot of the bed while the nurse was attending to the mother. I want to submit to this House that instances such as that, which is not an isolated case, should make us prepared, as a House responsible to the people of this country, to see that the Minister of Health gets the maximum of benefit from each of the Acts on the Statute Book, and to give him no rest until we are assured that that point of view is taken by him, and, furthermore, that he pursues it from that point of view.

It is many years since I have listened to such a moving speech in this House a that of the hon. Member for St. Bollox (Mr. J. Stewart), and though I am surprised to find that the Englishman was superior in civic virtues to the Scotsman, he has satisfied me that this Measure ought primarily to be directed towards the building of houses in the thickly-populated industrial areas, but as a countryman I have obligations to my constituents, and I want to raise here the question of housing as it affects the rural districts of England. In the most enlightening and clear speech made by the Minister of Health, I regretted to find this fault, that he said not one single word as to provision for the working of his housing measures in the rural districts. In my particular Division in Sussex, I have three very large rural areas, managed by rural district councils, and every one of them tells me the same story. Each of them under the Addison Act built houses, some three or four years ago, at an average cost varying between £900 and £960 apiece. These houses were let at rents of from 10s. 6d. to 12s. 6d. a week, according as they had two rooms downstairs or three, and on top of these rents there was superimposed—and had to be— rates which averaged from 2s. to 3s. a week. Everybody in this House can easily see that rents of that character it was quite impossible for men earning from 30s. to 32s., or sometimes only 28s., a week to pay, and it was really lamentable to go through those houses and see the pale-faced women trying to pay the rent out of wages such as these. The result of this has been that these rents have been slightly diminished, and they are now perhaps 2s. less than the amount at which they were, first fixed, but even now the rents are absolutely impossible for the people I am interested in, who are a large class of the community—the agricultural workers in England. The rural district councils abandoned the idea of building houses of that description.

Although the problem we have in our rural districts is not as great as that so forcibly described by the hon. Member for Glasgow, it is of the same character. We have in all our rural districts houses condemned by the medical officer of health that have been left standing, and compelled to be occupied because they could not be replaced owing to the economic conditions under which we are now living. These local authorities were anxious, and did their best, to provide houses, and to secure what, I think, is really a desideratum to be attained, if possible, and that is that the occupiers should be able to live without taking in a lodger, and not, as they have to do now, let one room off at a very high rent to some other poor family. In fact, the local authorities, though they made a rule about taking in lodgers, were soon compelled to abandon that position. They have tried, under the Act of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, and under the Act of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, to build houses under these conditions. Under the Act of this year each one of these rural authorities found it absolutely impossible to proceed at all. The cost would be so ruinous to the ratepayers, that they cannot get on in any direction. Under the Act of 1923, they have succeeded in our districts very little better, and the reason is that local authorities, so far as building the houses is concerned, cannot work anything like as cheaply as a private builder.

What is the good of telling me it is rubbish when I know from practical experience? They have tried under the first Act, and they have tried under the Second Act, and that is their experience. Private builders, too, are not able to build houses even under the Act of 1923, and for a reason I particularly desire to bring to the right hon. Gentleman's attention, because I think here some alleviation might be found. I believe it is a fact that in the South of England—I limit my observations to my own constituency, which I know thoroughly—building is more expensive than it is in the Midlands or in the North of England. A rule was made originally, I believe, by the right hon. Gentle-man opposite, and adopted by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, that to obtain a subsidy of £76 18s. 6d., I think it works out in my district, the all-in cost of these houses must not be more than £600. That has put a stop practically to the whole of the building in the rural area in the South. I know of two instances of houses that have been built for £560, but they are houses close to a railway station, built under special conditions, where the cost of carriage is cheap, and where there are other special circumstances. Each of the clerks of the three rural districts I am mentioning has told me that houses cannot be built in present conditions under £700, and one of them puts it at £750 in my district.

I want to ask the Minister of Health why it is that he has fixed a price of £600? It works out at £678. What does it matter to him, so long as he gets the house limited in area to the 950 superficial feet laid down in his Act, which is quite large enough, and, in fact, larger than is necessary for the purpose of persons of whom I am speaking, if he gets that house built under the condition that it shall not be sold to or occupied by anybody except a member of the wage-earning class? In the district of which I am speaking, builders do not build because there is no profit to be got out of it, but there are a large number of private owners who are ready and willing to erect houses to accommodate the men who work for them, provided they can get the assistance of the subsidy under the Housing Act. Why should not these persons be encouraged to build? They cannot get an economic return on their money, but they are prepared, for the sake of housing the men who work for them, to give these undertakings which I have mentioned, which would secure for a considerable number of persons who are farm-workers, and earning farm-workers' wages, houses at rents which they could pay. What does it matter to the Minister of Health whether the house cost £750, or £700 as he says, but which I was informed is about £670? If that were done, it would ease the situation, and I do beg of the Minister to see whether now he cannot pay some attention to what I have put forward to carry out the wishes of the rural district councils concerned.

Might I also point out another difficulty under which we suffer? I have the good fortune to live in and represent a very beautiful part of the country. We have a large population living there, and whose predecessors lived there for centuries. It is one of the earliest civilised parts of our country, and the inhabitants are most intelligent. They are being displaced by foreigners who come from London and neighbouring towns to our attractive locality, purchase a house or two cottages, and turn them into what is called a week-end house, thereby displacing a working family, and leaving them homeless, very often, no doubt, paying them to get out. This is an extremely pressing question in the Division I represent. I have myself devoted the best of my brains to finding some means of dealing with it and drafting some measure to prevent this gross injustice to our local population. If the Minister of Health can, by some regulation, prevent this, he will do a good deal to meet these housing difficulties.

Lastly, there is one little practical detail I would like to suggest to the Minister. In deciding on the plans to be adopted for the building of houses in borough, town or country, it is extremely desirable that we should have as much air space as it is possible to get. I find no fault with the limits which the Ministry of Health has laid down, but I do think the Minister might improve on these limits by securing and requiring, by a little addition to the grant of subsidy, in any plans that are passed and approved by any of the local authorities under his control, that express limits should be fixed for the superficial area that is to be used or applied to the various rooms of the houses; that he should lay down, for instance, that the kitchen should have an area of not less than 200 feet. I do not bind myself to figures at all, for I have not gone into them. The kitchen should have, say, not less than 180 feet; the larder should have so many feet and the bathroom so many feet, and the waste area should not be greater than 50 feet in the whole superficial area. He would then secure, I am certain, that houses should be built on the most economical lines and with that the most serviceable air space that could possibly be got. If the designers of these houses were limited in this way, the skill and ingenuity of the architect or designer would be so used that we could get the best value for money that is possible.

I would impress on the Minister that although the question of house building is more serious in the towns than in the country districts—and we have heard some particularly horrible details about housing in Glasgow—and more urgent in our thickly populated towns, it is only a question of degree, for we have the same trouble in our country districts. We have the same difficulties in getting houses and we have what is more important, and that is this: that owing to the high cost of haulage of the materials necessary to build the houses in the country—and from the nearest station in some places where we want to get houses in my division it is a distance of seven or eight miles—the cost of building houses is greater than it is in towns where they can be built in large quantities. I should like in any reply the Minister may make to have a little encouragement in the trouble, we have to face.

The hon. Baronet who has just spoken makes a statement which is very frequently made and which seems to me generally a part of a conspiracy of misstatement, although I do not wish to suggest that he is a willing subscriber to that conspiracy. As I said in this House a very short time ago, it seems to be desired in some quarters that an atmosphere should be created of hostility to public enterprise and direct labour, and no opportunity is missed to increase the density of that atmosphere by statements, without any shadow of truth, to the effect that direct labour and public enterprise are always a failure. In this matter of houses nothing could be further from the truth. I have in my possession here a report which was presented to the Newcastle City Council. That report contained statements made by the Town Clerks of 10 of the most important towns and cities in England, Wales and Scotland, giving the comparative figures of housing by direct labour and housing by contract work. That report, which it would take me much too long to go into in detail, but which the hon. Member can look at if he pleases to do so, is a complete refutation of the statement that direct labour in housing does not pay. The report deals with cities such as Manchester, Gateshead, Tynemouth, Swansea, Glasgow and West Hartlepool, and altogether there are 10 of the cities or towns of this country where the figures given are a splendid tribute to the value of public enterprise in housing.

One of the recent speakers in this Debate to-night quoted figures with regard to the Office of Works housing schemes in the London area, but in the Birmingham district, where there are comparative figures for the same type of house with the same specification, the cost by direct labour is shown as £776 and that by private enterprise as £926, which means a saving of £150 on each house. [An HON. MEMBEE: "At the same time?"] I am quoting answers to questions in this House in August last, and the figures asked for were comparative figures in every respect. I do not think the Department would have given misleading answers to questions asked on this matter. In Durham the figures were £734 and £880, against £896 and £1,005. That was in Durham in the year 1921, and direct labour saved £152 a house. In Hull there was a saving of £168 per house, and in Kent there was a saving by public enterprise on the Office of Works comparative figures of no less than £210 a house. Those of us on this side know the fact a with regard to quite a number of schemes of public housing in this country. There was a splendid experiment in Swansea, where the town estate was first undertaken, or, at least, projected upon the basis of contract labour, but the contractors would not look at the job at the price which was suggested and which the town council was prepared to agree upon for the particular housing plans. Altogether there was a saving affected by the Swansea Town Council by direct labour of no less than £72,000 upon 150 houses. The town council gave what the private contractor was certainly not prepared to give, and that is wet-time pay to the builders engaged and certainly better conditions generally all the way round for the operatives. Those facts surely dispose of the dogmatic statement of the hon. Member that I referred to, to the effect that public enterprise in housing does not pay. I could go on quoting, but there is not time to do it. I want, however, to mention two other subjects before I conclude.

The most striking feature to me about the speech of the Minister of Health this evening was the dropping of the theory of dilution in the building trade. During practically the whole of the discussions upon the 1924 Housing Bill—last Session— the Labour Government's Bill—this question was raised about the refusal of the building trade to allow their labour to be diluted. Now we find that that idea of dilution is dropped. The building industry is prepared to augment its labour by a rational and scientific method of apprenticeship on the ground that an apprentice can be taught to do the simple rough work at least as quickly as any dilutee, and so far as up-grading the builder's labourer is concerned the operatives have agreed with the employers—and they agreed with the late Government—to the up-grading of bricklayers where it was profitable and economic.

The objection to dilution has been that no method of dilution will give you economic working, because in the building industry a man to be profitable to the employer must be an all-round man. A man who is only taught quickly perhaps one or two simple processes is bound to be found sooner or later upon the unemployed market because he is not, economically, any profit to the builder. That is the objection of the building industry to the ordinary principles of dilution. So far as the building industry has agreed to an augmentation of labour by means of apprenticeship, the figures are rather startling. By that agreement the building industry allows an average of one apprentice to five or six craftsmen, five mostly, six in some areas. As a matter of fact, owing to the uncertainty of the trade there has been a difficulty in inducing apprentices to be indentured. Their fathers have not encouraged them taking up apprenticeship in the trade, and the industry has only had one apprentice to every 10 craftsmen. As a result of the agreement on they part of the building operatives to make the new allowance, and also as a result of the passage of the Housing Bill of this year, the prospect of 15 years' guarantee of work, and the programme, State subsidised, in order to overcome the difficulty of the housing shortage, there has been a notable increase in the number of apprentices. There has been plenty of evidence of the value of that proposal—of the 15 years' guarantee in the direction of efficient augmentation of labour in the building industry.

What I want to draw the attention of the House to is that we have heard to-day, from the Minister of Health, statements which very strongly suggest that there is a total lack of enthusiasm for anything in the nature of a guarantee on the part of the State to the building industry, and that the proposals and projects of the Labour Government have been, if not completely turned down, at least put in the position of so far as the guarantee and the building programme are concerned of something like it. I see no evidence in the speech of the Minister of Health of anything in the nature of a guarantee for 15 years. The point is this: that, if that is the attitude of mind to the operatives, and to the advantages to be gained by the quite historic method of development in any industry in this country, and the achievement of the late Minister of Health in getting the industry together upon an agreement of that kind, all that is going by the board, because you will not get anything in the nature of enthusiasm from the industry any more than you did in the past so long as the element of insecurity exists.

We find that the Minister of Health talks not about dilution—the idea of dilution has been dropped in favour of substitute building. I want to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that the effect of substitute building will be precisely the same thing as if the scheme or plan of 15 years' building had been absolutely dropped. When it is proposed to substitute other materials for building, what advantage is there in talking to the operatives with a view to the augmentation of building trade labour. I mean the unskilled bricklayer substitute, and so on? Personally, I rather lack the enthusiasm that a good many hon. Members seem to have on the subject of substitute materials. I am prepared to admit—I have said it before—that no body of trade unionists and no body of employers would stand in the way of efficient substitutes for any process in industry whatever. They cannot do it. They do not propose to do anything of the kind. But I do think that before you commit yourselves, practically pledge yourselves, to a policy which means the undoing of what has been done before, and the breaking down of the enthusiasm and the encouraging feeling that the operatives have had upon the plan of 15 years' house building, the question of substitute materials should be very, very practically considered.

A large number of people have jumped at the idea of steel houses. It may be possible to build a steel house that it is worth anybody's while to live in. I do not say only the working classes, but anybody else. We know that battleships are not bad places to live in. They are encased in steel, and there may be methods of building houses of steel with a steel lining on the outer side. But these steel houses, like other substitute materials, are in their experimental stage at the present moment. So long as they are in that experimental stage it seems to me very desirable that we should be rather less and less enthusiastic and that we should be very careful to examine all the considerations involved in the building of such houses. Take one or two considerations in respect to steel houses. In the first place, although the cost of steel houses will be slightly less immediately than in the case of brick and mortar houses, you have got to take the loan period into consideration, and how long the house will last. Again, you cannot keep steel from corrosion: or the methods of prevention are very expensive. In the first place, you will have to paint a steel house at least once a year on the outside. What about the inside? There are methods, but they are exceedingly expensive, to prevent corrosion upon the inside, because you cannot altogether take the house to pieces in order periodically to paint the inside of the steel casings; and that is just one consideration.

Another consideration is one that has to do with the amenities of the house— the conditions under which the people live. Everyone knows that in regard to the conduction of heat, and so on, that steel is a very costly material. Its extreme cold in the winter and its extreme heat in the summer have to be counteracted by some other process. What way are you going to counteract it? Asbestos and wood pulp has been suggested for the inner lining, but that is not going to make a steel house a habitable house. I suggest that that particular point is in a highly experimental stage at the present moment. Then there is the question of cost, which is involved through the circumstance that the specimen cottages built by Lord Weir were bungalows. It is true there are single-storey houses upon the steel basis erected at the present moment as an experiment, but it is generally agreed in the industry that you cannot build more than one-storey houses of steel without the cost being altogether out of proportion. You may be able to do it by some new method of construction which may be evolved out of the experiments, but at the moment that is the difficulty. The idea of bungalow houses, or even single-storey houses, in our cities is altogether absurd. You are not going to solve the question of overcrowding in our cities, or the general question of housing, by methods of that kind. I do not want to speak in hostility to substitute materials, but I do urge upon the Ministry to consider the matter very carefully, and not to "go in off the deep end," to use a vulgarism, not to become too enthusiastic and fail to recognise the urgency of organising and maintaining the organisation and goodwill of the building interest—building operatives and building employers.

The attitude of mind on the housing question among the Members on the other side is an exceedingly one-sided one. One hon. Member stated that until the passing of a certain Budget, for which the Liberal party were responsible, private enterprise had produced the houses that were required, and he implied that the only reason why it is necessary to interfere with private enterprise at the present time is the result of the previous interference by the Liberal Government—that before then everything was happy and altogether right with regard to housing. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The working people of this country never have been properly and decently housed, from the beginning of the industrial system in this country, when houses were run up—"run up" is exactly the phrase that fits—by the hundreds of thousands, back-to-back houses, houses in cul-de-sacs at right angles to the main road—you can see them in our great cities—with water closets at one end of the passage. Hundreds of thousands of these houses were built to house the working classes who were wanted for the great industrial development of the middle of the nineteenth century. Those houses form the worst of the slums in our towns now, and they were the products of private enterprise. The only decent houses that have been built for the working classes in this country, the only decent houses from every point of view, have been built by public enterprises of one kind or another. Private enterprise was a failure long before the budget of the Liberal party, and private enterprise is a failure here, if you are to consider the question from the standpoint of the health of the people and also from the standpoint, which I regard as quite as important, of the moral and spiritual values of the people.

I wish to associate myself with the congratulations offered by the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. P. Harris) to the Minister of Health on his accession to office once again. We are glad he did not fall to the blandishments of another office, and that his great gifts and his large experience in municipal service are again to be placed at the disposal of the Government. We sometimes hear of round pegs in square holes, but in this instance we know we have the round peg in the round hole, the man who, par excellence , knows the administration of local government from A to Z. The Debate this evening has illustrated the different points of view of the three parties on this question of housing. We have had the Conservative point of view that the solution of this problem lies in private enterprise. Our friends the Labour party put forward the counter solution, that public enterprise alone can solve the problem. We of the Liberal party believe that houses are so needed that it matters not whether they come from private enterprise or public enterprise, but that we must get those houses by one means or another.

For that reason we welcome the statement made by the Minister that he is going to give the 1924 Act a fair run. I confess to some little disappointment as to the means he has taken of doing so. It seems to me he posed rather as the stony-hearted stepmother who is going to do justice by the child that has been thrust upon her, and that he had not much enthusiasm for his job. I hope he will mete out to the 1924 infant the same sympathetic consideration that he does to> the 1923 one. We believe both Acts are necessary, that we ought to encourage private enterprise to give us the best houses they can, and at the same time we ought to use the public service in order that it may supplement the production of houses, and principally the houses required for letting. The occupying-owner is a desirable person, but occupying-owners are but a small proportion of those who are needing houses at the present time, and by no means those who are needing them most. Therefore, we believe it is essential we should have the 1924 Act with its provision of houses to let.

I do hope the long run policy outlined by the 1924 Act will be adopted by the Government; otherwise, one fails to see how we are going to get that increase of labour which is so essential. The Minister of Health said in his speech that the 1924 Act would not increase labour. It certainly will not unless he is going to give that continuity of policy which was foreshadowed by the Act. I agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken that the question of substitute building, important as it is, must be watched very carefully in so far as it affects the question of work for bricklayers, plasterers and others in the building trade. One may deplore the falling off in numbers in that trade, but one cannot be surprised at it on looking into the history of the past, and seeing the tremendous fluctuations in the rate of employment. They have learned by bitter experience how periods of unemployment have overtaken the periods of rapid building, and unless there is some guarantee that those who come into the trade will have continuity of work I am afraid we shall not see that desirable increase. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will encourage the National Committee which is dealing with augmentation of labour, that he will not merely stand aside and allow it to function, but, where necessary, will use the spur and encourage local authorities to form committees such as those already established in Manchester and elsewhere—joint committees representing the education committee, the housing committee, and the building trades as a whole— which shall seek to work out the augmentation of labour in its local application. I am sure if the Minister will proceed on those lines he will get all the support he requires.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he was anxious that the goodwill established upon this housing question by the late Government should be preserved. This is necessary because otherwise we shall not get these reforms carried out. He is giving financial support to these new methods of building steel houses, but where that principle cannot be extended we hope he will set up some research department in order to assist other forms of development. We are dealing with times of great need, and exceptional methods must sometimes be adopted. I know an instance of a workman who invented a patent brick using the by-products of the steel district in the shape of slag. It was believed that this invention produced a sound and satisfactory building brick at one half the cost of the ordinary day brick. I understand that it was sent up to the Ministry of Health and turned down, those who sent it receiving the usual red tape reply that the Ministry could have nothing to do with it. I do hope the Minister of Health will establish a research department, and if possible finance some of these new projects. I do not suggest that they should adopt any wild cat schemes, but in these days of great need I think we ought to get away from the ordinary stereotyped red tape system, and a certain amount of risk should be taken in the national interests. Encouragement should be given to those who are able to put forward some concrete proposals to substitute something else for ordinary bricks.

With regard to the question of slums, I wish to support the eloquent pleas which have been made by Scottish Members. One is very glad for the reference made in the Gracious Speech to the question of dealing with the slum problem. The Government have a great opportunity, and if the Prime Minister likes to use the power he has to grapple with this slum problem, he ought to be able to do it on a large scale, and if he attempts to do this I am sure he will have the support of the Whole House. We do not want much more legislation on the subject, but we do want action of a sympathetic character. This slum problem is one upon which all parties can unite. The tragedy of the home is so terrible in these cases that we want to seek points of contact rather than points of disagreement, and I am sure the Prime Minister will find a common measure of agreement if he elects to deal with the slum problem on broad lines.

10.0 P.M.

Whatever our views may be about the efficacy of private or public enterprise, no-one will suggest that private enterprise alone will solve the slum problem. I should say that this problem is the creation of private enterprise, unrestricted and uncontrolled. It is a state of things which no-one can be proud of, and it is up to us to see what we can do to remove this blot on our civilisation. It will not be solved by private enterprise, because it does not pay to house the slum popula- tion, and unless we are going to leave things as they are we must face the fact that this problem will have to be faced on the lines of subsidy, and I am sure no subsidy could be better spent than in attempting to remove this sore from our midst. We have our public health services, and it would only be another form of public health service to deal with this question on broad national lines. It is impossible to leave it to the local authorities, because the needs happen to be the greatest where the available funds are the smallest. The towns with the biggest slums and the most serious problem are those where the rates are the highest and they are unable to provide the necessary finances to deal with the situation. It is not merely a question of wiping away all the slums. It need not be costly, because under the 1919 Act local authorities have powers to enable them to clear away the slums at a comparatively small cost. It is not a question of compensating the slum owner. It is more a question of rehousing the slum population, and that cannot be done upon an economic basis. We are all agreed as to that, and there is before the Government, with its unparalleled majority, a very great opportunity to face this question and start a campaign which will remove the slums off the face of the country.

The cost of the slums already is tremendous. Reference has been made to diseases, and to tuberculosis, which is largely the product of a slum population. It is estimated by the Registrar-General that the cost of tuberculosis alone to the country is nearly £14,000,000 a year, and that disease is largely preventible and this money could be saved. We have our high infantile death-rate as well as the adult death-rate. I remember the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health speaking on bad housing conditions, and he gave the millions of days' work lost owing to preventible causes in regard to bad housing and ill-health. Here is a grand field for the Parliamentary Secretary to exercise the powers he has and to put into practice some of the theories which he developed a few years ago. It is not a question whether we can afford to deal with the slum problem, but whether we can afford to leave it alone. It is not merely a question of the high death-rate,' because we must remember that for every one of those deaths scores and hundreds of other people are left to suffer. It is well known that unemployment is caused by ill-health. For these reasons I appeal to the Government to try and remove this terrible sore and canker which is eating into the vitals of the nation.

There is no more fruitful cause of unrest than our terrible housing conditions. Those of us with decent houses do not realise the terrible conditions of the slum population. It was my privilege, some 20 years ago, to live in one of the slums of the town in which I live in connection with a boys' club, and there I saw something of the terrible life led by those who were compelled by circumstances to dwell under those conditions, under which it was quite impossible to get ordinary standards of cleanliness, and one marvels at the patience of those who lived there, especially the women, who are saints upon earth, in bringing up families under such conditions. We are all agreed as to the terrible conditions which exist and the impossiblity of private enterprise dealing with the question because it does not pay them to do so. Here is an unparalleled opportunity to use four or five years of office to deal with this question, and if the Government will tackle this question I am sure they will have a united country behind them and they will have the support of this House and, in this way they can do more to leave their mark on the pages of history than any other Government have done on this question.

We put down this Amendment to the Address because we doubted whether His Majesty's Government intended to provide houses in which people could live who could pay the rents. And we shall press this Amendment to a Division because we doubt no longer. I do not know how the Member for Middlesbrough West (Mr. T. Thomson) [ Interruption .] I am not quite certain whether the stepmotherly conception is good enough. From my point of view I see very little of the stepmother in the Minister, but rather a person who doubts whether he has any sort of legitimate relationship to the 1924 Bill of my right lion. Friend. The fact of the matter is, the House has been talking at large on housing, and a very interesting Debate we have had. But we have not got really to grips with the question of whether the right hon. Gentleman opposite does or does not mean to work the 1924 Act and provide houses for people who cannot afford the rents in the houses that are being put up to-day. Somebody has said that the housing problem has been with us for the last 50 years. It has, and it will be with us for a good many more at the present rate of progress. Let us realise and get down to fundamentals. At bottom, the housing problem is the poverty problem. As long as you have got people whose wages are regulated as are the wages of the working class to-day, you have got to have the cattle continued in conditions under which they can work. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who are the cattle? Do you house them in the potteries?"]

We know at bottom it is a question of whether these men can pay the rent. It has become more acute. During the War as wages rose and as house rents rose we in this country took the inadvisable step of restricting house rents in order to prevent wages rising. How much better would it have been then, as we can see now, if we had allowed wages to go up so that the people could afford to pay the rents. Now we are existing under unnatural conditions. So long as rent restriction endures you cannot get houses built by private enterprise or by public enterprise to let at economic rents to compare with these restricted rents which the houses are being let at to-day. It is the restriction of rents which forces this problem to the front, and that restriction of rents can only be met in the long run by a rise of wages. If you want to solve the particular problems from which we are suffering to-day raise wages 10 per cent, all round and you will meet the difficulty.

You will not solve the problem, but you will meet the immediate difficulty. Either you have got to subsidise houses in order to get them at rents which people can afford to pay or you must raise their wages in order that they can afford to pay. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why did not you do it?"] It is an unpleasant dilemma to be in, but it is the absolute fact to-day. Now what are we going to do about it? You say you cannot raise wages all round, wages are too high already, but if you let wages go up, not to a just level, but to a decent level, they would be able to pay. The fact is, all social reforms and all housing reform is mere tinkering with the results of a poverty machine which some describe as the capitalist system. Having got into these conditions we have got to see what we can do about it. The housing question with which we are faced to-day is a double question—the question of those who can own their own houses and of people who cannot afford to own their houses and must rent them. I think that under the preceding scheme we have done something for the class of person who can afford to buy their house, and anyone going down into the country to-day cannot fail to see what a much better house the post-War house is than the pre-War house. They are a better type of house, partly due to public enterprise and partly due to an improved state of the public conscience. They are better houses, but they can only be used to-day by people of the better artisan type who have saved a bit of money, or by the black-coated workers. It is very difficult to get any of those houses if you are a man earning £3 a week with nothing laid by.

But let me clear away the impression that the people who get these houses are not the sort of people for whom we in the Labour party stand. Those people are our best supporters. The difficulty we have is, not in persuading people in decent houses to vote for us. We find Henry Dubb lives in the slums. We know quite well that the more we can put an end to life in the slums the better it will be for our movement. We have to rely upon people in decent surroundings to think decent thoughts. Let us be quite clear, therefore, that we want houses which people can afford to buy as well as houses which they can only afford to rent. We want both. Let there be no mistake on that point. But we are only afraid, after listening to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, that there is a very poor chance of our getting the other type of house. The right hon. Gentleman comes forward and says, if we provide these houses which people can afford to buy, the owner-occupier type of house, later on these houses will become available for those people who cannot afford to buy them at present, but will be able to take them later on at a lower price. He says also that, as people come out of the poorer houses into better-class, there will be more room for expansion in the poorer class of house.

Take the first class. We do not want to have Chamberlain's cast-offs for these people later on. We do not want to have second-hand houses. We know perfectly well that in a hundred years or 50 years' time the new house deteriorates and becomes the slum. We want to have decent houses for people now, and it is no consolation to the working class to be told that if the right hon. Gentleman provides now a nice new house for the lower middle class, that later on that house will get down to the level where the other gentleman can afford to live in it. We want to have the houses now, and we are not getting any. The right hon. Gentleman is not going to repeal the Act. We are very glad that he is not, and, from the speeches we have heard to-day, I think he would find it, even with his enormous majority, somewhat difficult, and I do not wonder that he is not going to try it. But he can do his dire work just as successfully without any repeal of that Act of Parliament. Unfortunately, all that he has to do is to do as he has told us he will do—allow the Act to hang itself. It hangs itself so very easily when you have a Ministry of Health that is always present to assist at the execution, because this Act—the Wheatley Act—undoubtedly does depend on the co-operation of the Ministry of Health. How far are we going to get that way? Take the case of rural housing, so ably urged by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley). Are we going to get those houses? Anyone who was present at our Debates last year, and listened to speech after speech from rural Members urging the necessity of rural housing, cannot deny that that House at any rate was anxious for the 1924 Bill, in order to get houses for agricultural labourers in our country districts, and to get them six to the acre, so that there might be a bit of a garden with each house. There was a unanimous chorus in favour of that so far as the country districts are concerned. Are we going to get those houses or not? It does not depend upon us, but upon hon. Members opposite—upon whether they can force the reluctant step-parent to look after this miserable Act which is going to hang itself.

But, as hon. Members have pointed out, if the case is good for rural districts, it is even more necessary so far as the urban districts are concerned. No one who listened to the accounts we have heard to-day of the conditions under which people live in our towns, in Glasgow and in Southwark, or to the account of the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) of the horrible conditions of overcrowding in which people exist to-day, can doubt that the problem is at least as urgent in the towns as in the country. Are we going to get something done? It is quite impossible, unless you use the 1924 Act, to get houses at rents which these working-class people can afford to pay—and we are told that the Act will hang itself. We are told that there are all sorts of difficulties in the way. I should like to deal with some of those difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman says that the limitation in labour supply alone will prevent these houses from being built; an hon. Member for one of the divisions of Liverpool has told us that it is not merely the limitation of the supply of labour, but the limitation of the amount of work done by labour. One of the principal arguments at the last election was, when they were not talking about Russia, the wicked conduct of the building trade in preventing men from going into it, and, when they did go into it, their only laying 200 bricks a day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to see that hon. Members opposite have the courage to recognise that that was a good sound electioneering argument. We made the truth clear.

I should like to point out how the number of people employed in the building trade has gone down since the War. In 1911 there were, including bricklayers, masons, carpenters, slaters, plasterers, plumbers and painters—all the trades interested in the building industry—in 1911 there were in this country 729,092 men employed. The number has gone down, as everybody knows. The comparative number in January, 1924, was 367,030. Roughly speaking, the number of people in this country employed in building houses has gone down between 1911 and 1924 nearly a half. Let us compare the number of houses which were produced before and since the War. We will take two six-yearly periods. From 1909 to 1914 there were built, in England and Wales and Scotland, 419,957 houses. I take these figures from the Inland Revenue Returns. I will not go into details of how it is worked out, but that is, roughly speaking, a fairly accurate figure of the number of houses built in the six years before the War. Now take the six years since the War. The figures, so far as I can get them, of completed houses, including the Addison and the Chamberlain schemes as well as private enterprise, work out at 401,363. So you see in the six years since the War there have been fewer houses produced, but fewer by a few thousand only, and you say those building operatives are doing less work now per man than they did before the War, Yet there are only half of them. The number of operatives has come down by a half, and their output has remained constant. Therefore, each man is not doing less work than before the War. There may be many qualifications to make on these figures. I shall be told they are trade union figures. I shall be told there was more work before the War in building factories, or something of that sort. But you cannot get round the extraordinary fact that, although house building has remained constant, the number of people has dropped to one half and they must be doing twice as much work. At any rate, let us get rid of this silly habit of saying, "The working man was all right when I was a boy, but now he does not do a stroke of honest work."

Those figures are perfectly conclusive as to the fact that there is not a reduction in the individual output of the worker. How about the question of the limitation of the number of people who are employed in the building trade? We have had ample evidence to-day that, so far as the building trade thought they were having a decent programme, they were willing to admit dilution and were willing to see that more people were producing houses. That programme has been shattered. What will happen now? For goodness sake do not let any Member of the House go away with the idea that it is a blackguardly habit on the part of working men to try to keep their trade to themselves and to keep up their wages and the value of their services. What about the rubber producers? What about the cotton producers? What about the landlords? Do not they all, do not we all, if you like, try to get every advantage from our peculiar position, whether as landlords, as rubber growers, or otherwise? Is it not human nature? Do you expect the working men of this country to be so much more virtuous than the ordinary Stock Exchange man? So long as there is only a certain definite amount of work to be done in the world, they are perfectly justified in sharing the work out among their comrades, and not trying to grab more than their fair share. It is because we know that there is not only a certain small amount of definite work to be done that we do not believe in the ca'canny policy. We want to see people producing goods for people who want to consume them.

There are, of course, other difficulties in connection with the 1924 Act. It is not merely a question of the limitation of labour. It is far more largely, as the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) said, the fact that under the subsidy profiteering is bound to extend. As you raise the subsidy, up goes the profiteering. The right hon. Gentleman will not? carry out the natural and necessary consequences of the 1924 Act and take any steps to put a stop to that profiteering which is going on to-day, and which is bound to go on, as long as there is any sort of limitation in house building, and a demand in excess of supply. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do? He is going to trust the profiteers. He is going to say to them, "I will examine your accounts, and I will threaten you with legislation if I have any reason to believe that you are profiteering." The best check upon profiteering is that wicked Socialism which has been so often denounced, namely, direct employment by the local authority. That is the only chance of cutting down prices.

We were told by the right hon. Gentleman, in emphatic terms, that direct employment was a business proposition and must be treated on business lines. He hoped that it would be taken outside party warfare, and be considered as a business proposition. How sweetly reasonable we are after the Election! Of course, direct employment is Socialism at the election time, but it is all right afterwards. I hope that we may adopt unanimously in this House, the reasonable Socialism of using any weapon, even direct employment of labour, to prevent the excessive profiteering of that private enterprise which seems to have so much support on the other side of the House. That is one way of keeping down prices and of preventing profiteering.

I hope we shall not forget that if we are going to deal with the housing problem and with profiteering, we cannot avoid dealing with the land question. [ Laughter .] Oh, yes. You know quite well that you cannot get the people who own the land around the towns to hand over that land for housing purposes at anything but prices which are extortionate, compared with the rates which they pay on that land. You know perfectly well that the rates which are at present levied upon houses in this country are a 50 per cent, tax upon houses and that, therefore, they make houses few and dearer. This problem is bound to be a land problem, and I hope that, now that the Conservative Government has the assistance of a Chancellor of the Exchequer who in the past was emphatic on this subject, we shall see at the Ministry of Health a combination of Torism and Radicalism which will assist us in obtaining that which is essential for the building of houses—namely, land, brickfields, and building materials at a price which will enable profiteering to be ended, because of the increased competition of people who will be anxious to sell land or to sell clay fields for building purposes. I wish to speak also about the clearance of slums. I was glad to hear the Minister echo the words, "Go ahead on the slum question." We know quite well what these slums breed—not only disease but mental deterioration. Everybody is emphatic in the desire to abolish slums. It has been so for years. And all the time practically nothing has been done. We pass a new Housing Act every other year. The slums remain. Nothing is done, and the evil is there. I was interested to observe the other day a speech made on this question twenty-four years ago by Lord Balfour, then, I believe, Leader of this House. He said:

I have had the privilege to-day of listening to the major part of this Debate on on of the most important subjects which can come before Parliament in this or any other Session. The speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down has left me, I am bound to admit, in some amazement, because if I understand him aright he claims that this Amendment has been moved because he and his friends of the Labour party have doubted our intentions with regard to continuity of policy in housing and, above all, have doubted the ability of this Government to provide houses at such sums that they may be rented by the working classes. In this Chamber, across this Floor, from the responsible Minister of His Majesty's Government has come to-day, in clear and unmistakable terms, an undertaking that the 1924 Act, for which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) was responsible in the last Parliament—a Measure designed by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite after mature thought to solve this very problem—will be continued and not only that it will be continued, but that it will be given a fair and reasonable trial. It appears to me the 1924 Act will be judged by its own effects and not by any action which it may be supposed by hon. Gentlemen opposite that we may take to make it ineffective. If that Act is reasonable and just; if it is calculated to bring about those results which we understand it is intended to bring about, then, as I understand the Minister's statement, it will be given every chance to make good.

Something has been said to-day with regard to some idea that a new position has been taken up by those who administer to-day regarding any undertaking come to in the past by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite with the building industry. I have had the privilege in recent days of taking part in a conference with the representatives of the building industry. I heard the Minister responsible say clearly to them that he is only too anxious to carry out and implement in the fullest measure any means by which this problem can be solved. Speaking for myself, as one responsible for the time being for carrying on any negotiations with these interests in Scotland, I can honestly say to the House that so far as I am con- cerned and so far as my Department is concerned, any undertaking or arrangement which will expedite the building of houses, which will lead to the setting up of these Committees or will make more easy the conduct of all this building, will receive my support and encouragement. But, after all, has not the outstanding feature of this Debate to-day been rather a recognition by men of all parties that this problem which the House of Commons and the country have to face is one so serious and of so much importance that there has been a large measure of absence of captious criticism? I would trust that, while we may differ, and fundamentally differ, upon some points, there will be a real co-operation of all parties in this House in the solving of these problems. I am told that the party to which I belong have committed themselves to a system of private enterprise, to the exclusion of all other methods. That is not what I understand, and, while I am keenly anxious to see private enterprise encouraged, because I believe that by that means we shall go a long way towards the solving of these problems, yet if anyone tells me that that is being done to the exclusion of all other methods, I would remind him that the right hon. Gentleman's Bill of 1923, with the methods which we pursued with all the great municipal undertakings in this country, give a direct reply to any such accusation.

Some mention has been made to-night of that difficult and trying problem of slum clearance, and the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate seemed to think—in fact, he stated—that private enterprise had created the slums. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]. I would beg to point out to him and to other hon. Members who applaud that statement that at the time that these houses were built by private enterprise, had they been built by public enterprise, just the same standard as to light, and air, and general convenience would have obtained as obtained with private enterprise. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is all very well for hon. Members to say that that is not a just criticism, but the standard of building of private enterprise to-day-is vastly in advance of anything which we have known in the past. It is equally true to say that private enterprise, even in building houses for the best-to do people in this country in the past, had not reached that standard, and, as far as I am concerned—and I am sure that I am speaking for the Government—they realise that one of the most urgent and clamant problems of to-day is this question of slum clearance. Anyone who listened to the speech of the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. J. Stewart), who recently occupied the position of Under-Secretary to the Board of Health for Scotland, must, I am sure, have felt that he was speaking of his country, and of the conditions of the town a portion of which he so well represents, with a knowledge and with a feeling which must command at all times the interest and attention of this House.

He has asked me, as responsible for administration in Scotland, questions with regard to matters of administration which will presently arise. Let me say with regard to that matter of two rooms, to which he and other hon. Members have referred in this Debate, I well recognise it is essential that the standard of housing should be maintained in this country, but having learnt my apprenticeship in local government before I came to this House—local authorities, after all, being the elected representatives of the people—I am constrained to believe that I am justified in listening to the representatives of the local authorities, and of giving consideration, at least to any schemes which they may submit to me or to my Department. I am not in any measure oommiting myself to a general scheme. I am considering each one of these as it comes before me, but I am satisfied that when the local authority ask me for a larger proportion of two-roomed houses—and let me say, in passing, two-roomed houses, not on the basis of the two-roomed houses of the past, but two rooms, with the addition of a kitchen, sanitary convenience, bathroom, and all the modern conveniences of life'— I say that when I remember the terribly congested conditions of Glasgow, with families living, not in two-roomed houses, but single tenements, I am justified in making a relaxation of the rules on that subject.

With regard to questions I have been asked as to alternative methods, I would desire here, in the House of Commons, to pay a tribute to those individuals who have used their brains and energy in devising fresh methods of construction. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health has referred—and rightly referred—to the important experiments made by Lord Weir. I would add that there are others, and that it is one of the most striking features of this question that, from Scotland, there has come, not one, but several suggestions on this subject. Each one of these will, in turn, be considered impartially by the Department, and I trust that Lord Weir's suggestion and other suggestions may be found to be an additional help in the solution of this great problem. I have seen these houses, and I conceive there are great possibilities in furthering them, and I trust that local authorities not only in Scotland but in England will take advantage of the arrangement which has been outlined, and, so far as Scotland is concerned, I rejoice to think that there is a possibility not only of these houses being on exhibition for the public to inspect, but, what I conceive to be vastly more important, that we shall have a number of these houses within a comparatively short time actually occupied by people, who, living in them, can then give to us, or to any other authority, an idea as to whether they are successful OT not. That is the surest and best test of their reliability and of the opportunity which they hold out to the country as a whole.

There is one other problem that has been mentioned to-night with which I have special sympathy, and that is the problem of rural housing. There is no one, I am sure, who knows the circumstances of his country, either in England or in Scotland, but must recognise that, great as is the necessity for improving the urban conditions, there are in our country districts many houses which require to be replaced and also many houses which ought properly to be repaired. I think I am justified in saying that the Government and the Minister of Health in England is of the same opinion. The Act of 1923 has produced houses in the rural districts, and he is prepared to give every consideration to this problem with a view to dealing with it in a more expeditious manner if that be essential. I cannot imagine anything which, more than the question of rural housing, demands the attention of the Government to-day.

I would say, in conclusion, that this problem of housing is one which of necessity cannot be solved without additional labour. If hon. Members who know the circumstances and the difficulties of increasing that labour would help the present position rather by encouraging those who represent labour to come into conference with us and to try and solve this problem, they would do infinitely greater service to the country and to the people than by any measure of carping criticism. Everyone knows that there is a great shortage of expert builders in this country, and, so far as my own country is concerned, unless we can have far greater additions to these workmen than even has been suggested under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), I confess that I cannot conceive that we are going to go in any measure towards a real solution of this problem. That being so, I trust that not only will there be that co-operation which I am happy to think has started by meetings already of a friendly nature which are going to be continued in Scotland within the next few days, but I trust that Members who can influence the trades unions on this question will do everything they can to expedite and bring about a reasonable settlement of this problem.

It is the trusts and rings that are restricting the output at the present moment.

If the hon. Member will influence his friends in the manner which I have indicated, then I am quite satisfied that we on our side, if and when it can be definitely shown that there are trusts and rings which are acting contrary to the public interest and the interest of the State and the housing industry——

—in this country, then and under those circumstances the Government will give full consideration to that problem.

There is five minutes left, and I can say all that I have to say in that time. I have been listening for five hours to antediluvian economics and prehistoric politics. One would almost imagine to read and to listen to the speeches that the housing problem was a new one. Yet my mind goes back to when I was a boy and when I read a book called "In Darkest England and the Way Out." That was written, not by a class Socialist, but by one of our great religious revivalists. That was in the heyday of capitalism, when private enterprise was on the top, not the wicked Socialist. One-third of the people of this country were living under poverty conditions, and overcrowded conditions of housing. I want to ask how long is this game to go on? It is supposed by some people that everything in the garden is lovely!

I am an old bricklayer's labourer. I passed this House many a time walking from West Ham 10 miles away around Westminster, a bricklayer with me, both of us asking for jobs. We were turned down at every place. There was no work for us then. There was no lack of skilled mechanics, because they used to go about in pairs, like courting couples. Now we are told that the reason why we cannot have houses is because we have not got skilled mechanics. Well, you give us a guarantee in the building trade that if we are willing to do our bit you will do yours. How many lawyers in this House are willing to allow dilution in the legal profession? How many doctors in this House are prepared to go away from etiquette?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is a medical officer of health. He represents a district where they have one of the worst housing conditions in Great Britain. Why cannot he do his duty? Because of the body with which he is connected as medical officer of health. He represents one of the worst of the districts. I want hon. Members to realise that the housing problem has already been described by some of my hon. Friends on this side. It is more a matter as to the amount people can pay for a house or the rent they can pay. William Morris, one of our greatest poets, said that so long as people are poor they would be poorly housed. It is poverty that is at the bottom of the housing problem. The people cannot afford to pay the rents, and, therefore, you cannot afford to have the houses. The system you stand to defend is condemned to begin with The people are poor because they are robbed, and they are robbed because they are poor. You will never have the problem solved until that aspect of it is solved.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 356.

Division No. 5.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Gillett, George M.

Lunn, William

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Mackinder, W.

Ammon, Charles George

Greenall, T.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

March, S.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Baker, Walter

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Montague, Frederick

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Groves, T.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Barnes, A.

Grundy, T. W.

Murnin, H.

Barr, J.

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Naylor, T. E.

Batey, Joseph

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Oliver, George Harold

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Palin, John Henry

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Harris, Percy A.

Paling, W.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Broad, F. A.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Ponsonby, Arthur

Bromfield, William

Hayes, John Henry

Potts, John S.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Buchanan, G.

Hirst, G. H.

Riley, Ben

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hirst, W, (Bradford, South)

Ritson, J.

Clowes, S.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich)

Cluse, W. S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

Compton, Joseph

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Rose, Frank H.

Connolly, M.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Kennedy, T.

Scrymgeour, E.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Scurr, John

Day, Colonel Harry

Kirkwood, D.

Sexton, James

Dennison, R.

Lansbury, George

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Duncan, C.

Lawson, John James

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Dunnico, H.

Lee, F.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Livingstone, A. M.

Sitch, Charles H.

Gibbins, Joseph

Lowth, T.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Wignall, James

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Thurtle, E.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Tinker, John Joseph

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Snell, Harry

Varley, Frank B.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Viant, S. P.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Windsor, Walter

Stamford, T. W.

Warne, G. H.

Wright, W.

Stephen, Campbell

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Sutton, J. E.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Taylor, R. A.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Allen Parkinson.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

Whiteley, W.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Christie, J. A.

Goff, Sir Park

Albery, Irving James

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Grace, John

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Allen, J.Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Clarry, Reginald George

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Clayton, G. C.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gretton, Colonel John

Apsley, Lord

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Cooper, A. Duff

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Astor Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Cope, Major William

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Astor, Viscountess

Couper, J. B.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Atkinson, C.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hammersley, S. S.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Harland, A

Balniel, Lord

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Craik. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Crook, C. W.

Haslam, Henry C.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hawke, John Anthony

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Beckett, Sir Gervase

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey.Gainsbro)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Bennett, A. J.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Bethell, A.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar.& Wh'by)

Betterton, Henry B.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Hilton, Cecil

Birchall. Major J. Dearman

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Dawson, Sir Philip

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Boothby, R. J. G.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Holland, Sir Arthur

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Dixey, A. C.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Homan, C. W. J.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W

Drewe, C.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Brass, Captain W.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Briggs, J. Harold

Ellis, R. G.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Briscoe, Richard George

Elveden, Viscount

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.}

Brittain, Sir Harry

England, Colonel A.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Erskine, James Malcoim Monteith

Hume, Sir G. H.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Huntingfield, Lord

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Hurd, Percy A.

Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Hutchison, G. A. C.(Midl'n & Peebles)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Butler, sir Geoffrey

Fermoy, Lord

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Bullock, Captain M.

Fielden, E. B.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Finburgh, S.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Burman, J. B.

Fleming, D. P.

Jacob, A. E.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Ford, P. J.

James. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Butt, Sir Alfred

Forrest, W.

Jephcott. A. R.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Campbell, E. T.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Cayzer, sir C. (Chester, City)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Knox, Sir Alfred

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Gates, Percy

Lamb, J. Q.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Gee, Captain R

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Chapman, Sir S

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Lloyd, Rt. Hn.Sir G. (E Sussex, E'stb'ne)

Pennefather, Sir John

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Storry Deans, R.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Perring, William George

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Loder, J. de V.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Looker, Herbert William

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Philipson, Mabel

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Lougher, L.

Pielou, D. P.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Pilcher, G.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Power, Sir John Cecil

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Tasker, Major R. Inigo

Lumley, L. R.

Preston, William

Templeton, W. P.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Price, Major C. W. M.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Radford, E. A.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Ramsden, E.

Thomson, Sir w.Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Rawlinson Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Tinne, J. A.

MacIntyre, Ian

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

McLean, Major A.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Macmillan, Captain H.

Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)

Waddington, R.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcoim

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Walker, Forestier-, L.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Remer, J. R.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Macquisten, F. A.

Remnant, Sir James

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Rentoul, G. S.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Malone, Major P. B.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Watts, Dr. T.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Margesson, Captain D.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Wells, S. R.

Merriman, F. B.

Ropner, Major L.

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Rye, F. G.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Salmon, Major I.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Sandon, Lord

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Savery, S. S.

Wolmer, Viscount

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Womersley, W. J.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Neville, R. J.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Shepperson, E. W.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Skelton, A. N.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L,

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Wragg, Herbert

Nuttall, Ellis

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Oakley, T.

Smithers, Waldron

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Commander B. M. Eyres Monsell and Colonel Gibbs.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Owen, Major G.

Stanley, Lord

Main Question again proposed.

It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned .

Debate to be resumed To-morrow .

Irish Free State Land Purchase (Loan Guarantee) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Treasury to guarantee loan.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

On this Bill I think the House, which is very largely a new House, is entitled at any rate, to a word of explanation from the Government. The Bill proposes to guarantee a very large sum of money— £30,000,000 as a maximum— and so far as I know, the House has not yet had any explanation whatever of the purpose for which this money is to be expended. I may be wrong, but at any rate we had no explanation on the Second Reading last night. The House is entitled to learn what is the object of the Bill, what is the extent of the guarantee and the amount of money that may possibly be expended. Of course all Members in the House are familiar with the history of this land purchase question, and I should neither be in order in going into it, nor do I desire to do so, but I do desire before Clause I is ordered to stand part of the Bill to have a word of explanation from the Government on its general scope.

My hon. Friend was, unfortunately, not present at the Debate on the Financial Resolution in which the purpose and scope of this Bill were explained to the House. The object of this Bill, which I can put in a sentence or two, is to carry out undertakings made by previous Governments which will enable Irish landlords to get the full value of such payment as they are now to get under Free State legislation for the buying out of their estates. It is a continuation of the policy under which £130,000,000 has been already raised by this country. Another £30,000,000 will be found for the landlords in the form of Free State bonds, and as, at the present moment, these bonds might fall in value on being sold, if they were only dependent upon the guarantee of the Free State in its present temporary financial position, it is considered right that the guarantee of the British Government should stand behind these bonds, so that the landlords should at any rate get the full value of the nominal purchase price which has been given.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2 ( Short title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Electricity (Supply) Acts

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Tetbury and parts of the parishes of Beverstone, Shipton Moyne, and Tetbury Upton, in the rural district of Tetbury, all in the county of Gloucester, and part of the parish of Long Newnton, in the rural district of Tetbury, in the county of Wilts, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parish of Shepperton, and part of the parish of Littleton, in the rural district of Staines, in the county of Middlesex, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Lymm, in the county of Chester, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Walsall, and parts of the parishes of Great Wyrley and Essington, in the rural district of Cannock, in the county of Stafford, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919j in respect of the boroughs of Chippenham and Devizes, the urban districts of Bradford-on-Avon, Melksham, Trowbridge, and West-bury, and the rural districts of Bradford-on-Avon, Calne (except the parish of Calne Without), Chippenham, Devizes, Melksham, and Westbury, and Whorwellsdown, all in the county of Wilts, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Order made by the Electricity Commissioners, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under Section 7 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, constituting the Edinburgh and Lothians Electricity District, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parishes of East Bedfont, Hanworth, Harmondsworth, Harlington, and Cranford, in the rural district of Staines, in the county of Middlesex, and for other purposes, which was presented on the 9th day of December, 1924, be approved."——[ Colonel Ashley .]

Gas Regulation Act, 1920

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Aldershot Gas, Water, and District Lighting Company, which was presented on the 9th December and published, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Morecambe, which was presented on the 9th December and published, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Castleford and Whitwood Gaslight and Coke Company, which was presented on the 9th December and published, be approved."— [ Sir Burton Chadwick .]

The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed .

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell .]

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.