House of Commons
Wednesday, February 11, 1925
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PRIVATE BILLS [ Lords ],
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in respect of the Bills comprised in the Report laid upon the Table by Mr. Speaker as intended to originate in the House of Lords, they have certified that the Standing Orders have been complied with in the following cases, namely:
Aire and Calder Navigation.
Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire Electricity.
Bexhill Corporation.
Blackpool Improvement.
Boothferry Bridge.
French Protestant Episcopal Church of the Savoy.
Great Yarmouth Haven Bridge.
Horley District Gas Company (Electricity Supply).
Hoylake and West Kirby Urban District Council.
Ipswich Corporation.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation.
Leek Urban District Council Water.
Lloyd's.
London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers).
London and North Eastern Railway (Nottingham and Retford Railway).
London, Midand, and Scottish Railway.
Mansfield Corporation.
Mid-Glamorgan Water Board.
Newbury Corporation.
Newquay Water.
Nottingham Corporation.
Oldham Corporation.
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board.
Poole Harbour.
Rochdale Corporation.
Royal Exchange Assurance.
St. Mary's Church, Birmingham, and General Hospital.
St. Mildred's Churchyard.
Scarborough Corporation.
South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company.
Southern Railway.
Stock Conversion and Investment Trust.
Surrey County Council.
Uckfield Gas and Electricity.
West Ham Corporation.
PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
Tyne Bridge.
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Dumfries and Maxwelltown Bridge Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Passports
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is prepared to revert to pre-War practice in regard to passports?
His Majesty's Government are not prepared to revert to pre-War practice, for the reasons given by the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby), at that time Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in a reply to a question put to him on the 26th February last.
Morocco and Tangier
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to make any statement on the Moroccan and Tangier situations?
As regards Tangier. considerable progress has recently been made in organising the new regime, and there is ground for hope that it will shortly come into effective operation. On the general situation in Morocco, I cannot usefully add anything to what my right hon. Friend said before the House adjourned.
is there any further word of an international conference on the whole Morocco situation?
I would rather the hon. and gallant Gentleman put that question on the Paper.
Is there any financial guarantee attached to the Tangier agreement?
That question also will require notice.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British policy in connection with Morocco will pay special attention to the security of the Arabs of the Riff from foreign domination, whether it be exercised by Spain, France or ourselves?
It would be altogether improper for His Majesty's Government to intervene in matters concerning the native inhabitants of French or Spanish Protectorates.
Has His Majesty's Government taken any steps to raise the Morocco question at all in Paris, and, in particular, - during the last visit of the Foreign Secretary?
I think I may confidently answer that in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is widely believed both in Spain and Morocco that British interests are supporting Abdel Krim in his campaign against the Spanish Army, and that this belief is impairing the friendly relations that exist between England and Spain; and will he take steps to make it clear that—
A question almost exactly on those lines is going to be put to me by private notice later on, to which I will presently answer.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that it is widely believed both in Spain and Morocco that British interest are supporting Abdel Krim in his campaign against the Spanish Army, and that this belief is impairing the friendly relations that exist between England and Spain; and if he rill take steps to make it clear that His Majesty's Government will in no way countenance any relations that have been entered into by private persons in this country and Abdel Krim?
On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that a question on this subject is on the Paper for to-morrow?
In that case, I think I must remind the House that Members ought to consult. the Order Paper before bringing private notice questions to me. It certainly is not fair for one Member to get in front of another. Is it the hon. Member's question that is on the Paper for to-morrow?
Yes, Sir.
In that case, the hon. Member is quite entitled to ask that the matter should be deferred. Does he do that?
I should be very glad if it were deferred.
Could not this question be put down as a question of urgency?
if a Member has put it down for to-morrow, I do not think it is fair that he should be anticipated by another Member to-day.
But if you consider, Sir, that the question is one of urgency?
The question of urgency does not arise before a quarter to 4 o'clock.
League of Nations(Headquarters)
asked the Secretary of State, for Foreign Affairs whether, before the proposed palace for the League of Nations is commenced at Geneva, the British representative will be instructed to press for further consideration of suggestions for the removal of the headquarters of the League to a more accessible centre and one enjoying a more equable climate.
His Majesty's Government are not aware of any desire among the members of the League to move the seat of the League from Geneva, and they are certainly not prepared to make such a suggestion.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much we have contributed, if at all, to the cost of the erection of this building at Geneva?
I cannot tell my hon. Friend that without notice.
Registration, France
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the regulations connected with registration in France for British and other foreign nationals after a stay of 14 days has been brought to his notice; and whether he can see his way to make friendly representations to the French Government with regard to certain of these conditions as far as British nationals are concerned?
Representations have already been addressed to the French Government in this matter. It has been ascertained that British passports will be accepted. as sufficient proof of identity for the purpose of the new regulations.
Ruhr Occupation (Duties Onbritish Goods)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any agreement has been reached with the French Government with regard to the money raised by the French Customs levies on British goods entering the Ruhr during the recent occupation; whether it has been decided what is to become of this money obtained from British merchants; and in what position the matter has been left?
I. would refer the hon. and gallant Member to Article 12 of the Agreement regarding the Distribution of the Dawes Annuities signed at Paris on the 14th January.
I am aware of that, but may I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is quite clear that the money that was obtained from British merchants during the occupation will actually be returned to the Treasury and eventually to the people who paid it?
Under Article 12 (D), cash receipts in the Ruhr, after the deduction of the civil costs of collection and costs of administration, are paid over towards the satisfaction of the Belgian Priority.
Will that mean that we acknowledge the legality of the original occupation of the Ruhr?
I will not discuss what arises on that, but I will only point out that, from the point of view of the British trader, there is really not very much in it, because, in any case, if the French had not been in the Ruhr, he would have had to pay duty to the Germans.
He paid double duty?
Oh, no!
Unemployment
Grants Committee Schemes
asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons employed on schemes sanctioned by the Unemployment Grants Committee in February of last year, and at the present time?
The latest figures available are those for the end of December, 1924, and show that, on the returns received, 38,605 men were employed on Unemployment Grants Committee Schemes as compared with 30,234 in December, 1923. These figures represent the number of men stated by the local or other authorities to be actually employed on the site of the work at the date of the return, and exclude men stood off from the job on that date in connection with arrangements for alternative working or other shift systems. The figures do not take any account of the employment provided indirectly in the preparation and transport of materials, etc.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain districts unemployment is increasing considerably over what it was a year ago, and will he make sympathetic representations to the Unemployment Grants Committee that they have special regard to the claims of these areas?
I am not aware that unemployment is increasing.
It is.
Then I take that from the hon. Member, but at least, in all these cases, we keep a quite careful watch on the different areas, in order to see what the necessity is, and, of course, it depends very largely on the localities themselves as to the applications or otherwise that they may make to the Unemployment Grants Committee.
Uncovenanted Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour the number of applications for uncovenanted unemployment benefit made during the year 1924, and the number of such applications refused on the ground that the applicant was not genuinely seeking whole-time employment?
The number of claims to uncovenanted or extended benefit referred to local employment committees during 1924 was 2,764,000. The number of these claims rejected in the period up to the end of July, on the ground that the applicant was not genuinely seeking whole-time employment, was about 71,000. Owing to changes made by the Unemployment Insurance Act of let August., corresponding figures cannot be given for the rest of the year, but the total number of claims rejected by committees between August and December was 179,000 as compared with 136,000 between January and July.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department seriously taken steps to tighten up the work of the unemployment committees and the agencies for the payment of unemployment benefit?
Will the right hon. Gentleman give some guidance to the unemployed as to how they can prove to be genuinely seeking employment.?
I am afraid that is not possible to put in answer to a question, but if the hon. Member will bring it up on any of the occasions for debate when such a discussion is possible, I shall be perfectly glad to deal with it, because one of the objects of the administration is to try as far as possible to discriminate between the people who are deserving, and ought to be legitimately entitled to unemployment pay, and those who are not.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether all these people who are rejected are not required, before they go before the committee or ask for unemployment pay, to register day by day, and that it is the, failure of the Exchanges to provide them with work that keeps them unemployed? [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] Certainly it is.
Benefit Applications (Women)
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that the Rochdale Employment Exchange, by the appointment of a special committee to interrogate each woman applicant for unemployment pay, has resulted in a fall in the number of applicants within 10 days from 1,239 to 40; and whether, with a view to safeguarding the interests of genuine applicants and to conserving public funds, he will use his endeavours to secure that this example should be followed in other parts of the country?
I am very familiar with the statement to which my hon. Friend alludes, and had the facts ascertained some time ago. A subcommittee was appointed, as stated, last December, but its object. was limited to the examination of the cases of about 120 women, not on short time, some of whom it was thought might be made available to meet a shortage of weavers. Between 51) to 60 of these women disappeared from the register at about this time, and it is not, unlikely that their disappearance was due to the inquiries that were addressed to them through the sub-committee, but this is the utmost extent to which a reduction of the register can be attributed to this cause. At the same time a large number of other operatives, previously on short time, went off the register, owing to longer hours of working being started. The reduction of the register owing to this cause during the first fortnight in December probably exceeded 1,200.
The two facts above mentioned had no connection with each other, and their occurrence at the same time was a coincidence. At the same time, I should like to make it clear that I thoroughly approve of the action taken by the local employment committee. Within the limits I have mentioned, the work of the sub-committee was useful, and steps are being taken to suggest similar action in other places where the circumstances are similar.
Has the Minister taken into consideration the serious abuse and injustice due to this method of interrogation; and, further, has he taken into consideration the prejudiced position of an illiterate person in the hands of skilled cross-examiners?
Every attempt is made, so far as I am aware, to see that each case is treated fairly, and the fact that a person is illiterate should not in any way prejudice the claim in any respect.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that an inquisition of this character is likely to keep away the modest, retiring woman who has got a good case, and that that would account. for the decrease in the figures?
I think the answer is definitely, no. I do not think that type of inquiry, which cannot properly be described as an inquisition, is likely to deter a person who is really entitled to benefit, and who can have her case quite easily substantiated.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will tighten up the machinery to prevent women drawing the unemployment dole when the husband is at work earning at least £5 a week?
That does not arise. on this question.
rose —
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member permitted to address the House uncovered, in view of your ruling that ladies may address the House covered? [HON. MEMBERS: "That is a gentleman !" and "Snob !"]
The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) is quite in order.
May I ask the Minister of Labour if he can give the House any idea as to the nature of the questions that w ere addressed to these girls by the Committee?
I cannot say offhand, but I will be very glad to try to procure any information of the kind if the hon. Member desires it and will write to me. I would only repeat again, because I wish to make it quite clear, that the object of these inquiries or any other is not to make an inquisition, but is simply to try to discriminate, in the interests of deserving persons, between those who do deserve unemployment benefit and those who do not.
Several hon. Members rose—
This is becoming a Debate; it must be resumed on a more appropriate occasion.
Royal Navy
Cruiser Construction
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the estimated cost of the five new cruisers now under construction or about to be constructed; and how long the effective life of such cruisers is?
It is not in accordance with the usual practice to give the price of vessels building by contract, but I can say that the cost of each cruiser is expected to lie between 1½ and 2 millions. It is estimated that these vessels will be fully efficient, for 15 years, counting from their date of completion.
Does the right, hon. Gentleman think that these cruisers will serve any useful purpose after they have been completed?
Is there any fixed date when these cruisers will be completed?
They are expected to be completed some time after the year next.
May we take it that no binding commitment of any kind will be entered into in reference to these cruisers until the consent of this House has been obtained?
These cruisers were laid down by the late Government.
Lay all your sins on the late Government?
This is not a sin.
Singapore Base
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the estimated loss in materials, deterioration and time consequent upon the suspension of the work on the naval base at Singapore; whether operations have been recommenced upon the base; and whether any negotiations have been in progress with the Dominion Governments in respect of contributory payments since the Recess.?
Little direct monetary loss has arisen from the disposal of materials consequent on the suspension of the work on the naval base at Singapore. So far as is known, no deterioration has occurred in the material remaining on hand. There is, however, a considerable indirect loss, which cannot he accurately estimated, due to other causes, such as fruitless employment of staff, cost of passages out and home, compensations to local contractors for minor works contracts which were cancelled and cost of anti-malarial work, erection of temporary buildings, etc., which will have to be done over again. The loss of time will be a: least one-and-a-half years. Operations have not been recommenced at the base, but some preparatory work in connection with the design and arrangements for commencing is in progress. As regards the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to my reply of the 11th December to my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir Newton Moore).
Is His Majesty's Government accelerating work on this base as much as possible?
I think that we are really doing as much as is possible at the present moment.
Cadets (Fees)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any decision has yet been come to with regard to the abolition of fees for cadets for His Majesty's Navy; if he is aware that many young men of promise, including sons of serving officers, are prevented from entering for the officer corps of the Navy through lack of means; and if he is aware that in the American and Japanese Navies no fees are charged for cadets?
I am unable. at present to add anything to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on the 17th December.
Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope for the poor naval officer of today, who cannot afford to put his son into his own Service because of these fees? Is there any hope at all?
I am not prepared to make any statement on the subject.
Questions
Rating and Valuation Bill
asked the Minister of Health whether the Government propose to deal with the question of the reform of rating, so that the charges for such national services as education, the relief of unemployment, and the maintenance of main roads shall be more equally borne than is the case at present?
My right hon. Friend hopes to introduce a rating and valuation Bill in the present Session. One of the objects of the Bill will be to secure, as far as possible, uniformity of valuation, which is a necessary preliminary to any revision of the system of local taxation.
Can the hon. Gentleman say how soon after he has uniformity of valuation he will have uniformity of rating?
I am afraid I cannot answer that. I must leave it to the hon. Member's own imagination.
Housing
State-Assisted Schemes
asked tile. Minister of Health the number of houses at present in course of construction under the various State-assisted schemes and the number under construction in February last?
As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is ale statement:
Particulars are not yet available as to the number of houses in course of construction on the 1st February last, but the following table shows the position on the 1st. January, 1924 and 1925:
Scheme. 1st January. 1924. 1925. Housing, Town Planning, etc. Act, 1919. 4,873 1,658 Housing, etc. Act, 1923 14,102 49,196 Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924. — 3,173 Totals 18,975 54,027
Building Cost
asked the Minister of Health the cost of building ordinary working-class dwelling houses in January, 1924, and the end of January, 1925; and what action he has taken to keep prices at a reasonably low level?
Particulars are not yet available as to the cost of houses in Contracts let during January, 1925, but the average prices of non-parlour houses included in contracts let by local authorities were:
Is any attempt being made by the Minister or the Government to prevent undue profiteering in building materials, and, if so, will he state what steps have been taken by his Department?
One of the steps taken by the Minister is that all local authorities have been advised that, in order to keep the cost of building at a reasonable level, they should exercise control over the number of houses put out to contract from time to time, and that the demand made upon the building industry should take into account the availability of building materials.
Is it not the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, by requesting local authorities to restrict the number of houses under construction, is injuring public enterprise, and drawing away from municipal housing all the building employés on to schemes where hot1Jics are being erected for sale?
I have no knowledge of any of the facts referred to. If the hon. Gentleman will send any particulars of cases of that kind. I will gladly make inquiries.
Are we to understand that the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for keeping prices down has lapsed since he took office.?
No, Sir.
Could the hon. Gentleman tell us the proportion of the increased cost due to the increased cost of building material?
I understand that a large proportion of the increased cost is due to the rise in wages. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]
Housing Act, 1924
asked the Minister of Health what action he has taken, if any, to consult with rural district councils, urban district councils, and other administrative bodies with the view of urging upon them the necessity of operating the 1924 Housing Act and providing houses for letting purposes for Working-class tenants?
A very full circular explaining the provisions of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, was issued to all local authorities in August last and considerable publicity has also been given to the Act in the Press. I think that local authorities are fully aware of their powers and under those circumstances further action in the direction suggested does not appear necessary at present.
In view of the replies given to previous questions, is it not the fact that the Government have deliberately discouraged local authorities from building under the 1924 Act?
No, Sir; there is not a word of truth in that statement. Every opportunity has been given to the local authorities to work that, Act, and every fairplay will be given to them.
But did not the hon. Gentleman state to the House that the Ministry had advised local authorities to be careful how many houses they had under construction, so that prices were not likely to rise? Does it not seem inconsistent for him now to say that there was not deliberate discouragement of building under the Act?
No, Sir; the instructions to which I have referred and given to the local authorities were irrespective of the Act they were to build under. No suggestion was made, in the keeping down of costs, that they were to work under one Act or the other.
also asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been sanctioned up to date under the 1924 Housing Act; and can he state the percentage of building labour at present employed in building houses for letting purposes, the percentage employed erecting houses for sale, and the percentage employed on private work other than house building?
28,446 houses have, been authorised under the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924–27,568 to be erected by local authorities and 878 by private enterprise. I regret that statistics are not available bearing on the last part of the hon. Member's question.
Building Trade (Dilution)
asked the Minister of Health what progress has been made to secure dilution in the skilled braches of the building trade, especially in connection with the employment of skilful labourers?
The arrangements so far made with regard to the augmentation of skilled labour in the building trade are set out in a Circular recently issued to local authorities, a, copy of which I shall be pleased to forward to the hon. Member.
Is it not a fact that there are many thousands, if not tens of thousands, of skilled labourers able to do the simple, straightforward work of building workmen's cottages, and are quite able to lay bricks as bricklayers, and ought not these men to be given employment?
Has the hon Gentleman, in considering the question of dilution in regard to the enthusiasm of the Minister for steel houses, considered the propriety of expecting the building trade unions to agree to dilution so long as substituted materials are being used?
In reply to the first supplementary question, it is true that there are a large number of men available, and, I believe, willing, to build houses such as the hon. Member refers to. I should add that under the arrangements indicated in the Circular referred to it has now been arranged that building trade labourers up to any age can be admitted as craftsmen on housing schemes after three years' apprenticeship; the rate of pay during the apprenticeship to be progressive and commencing at not less than that of a builder's labourer.
Cannot these men be admitted at once as bricklayers to build The houses required by the working classes?
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us, was not a scheme placed before the late. Minister of Labour under which the Australian Government trained a number of men between the ages of 18 and 20—men that after three months' training were laying bricks at the rate of 1,000 per day?
It is perfectly true that the Australian Government have insti- tuted a certain scheme for augmenting building labour there; it is certainly a much shorter period than that mentioned in the answer to which I have referred, but not quite in the direction indicated by the Noble Lady.
Can the hon. Gentleman give particulars of the kind of work done by these men, who after being trained for three months, can lay 1,000 bricks per hour—[ Laughter. ] I mean per day?
I think this Debate Lad better be continued at a more convenient date.
Questions
Export Credits Scheme
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what amount of export trade credits he has authorised since taking office; whether he can form any estimate as to the total to date of the bad debts incurred by his Department; and how many applications for State assistance has he been able to refuse?
As regards the first and last parts of the question, 84 applications for credits amounting to £447,206 have been sanctioned since I took office and 39 applications have been refused. In all cases the Export Credits Department has acted on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. As regards the second part, delays necessarily involved in the liquidation of assets render it impossible at present to give an estimate of the total amount of bad debts which have been incurred.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the amount that has been advanced under the Export Credits Act?
The total sum advanced under the Export Credits scheme amounted to £1,752,150. Might I remind my hon. Friend that the system of advances, as distinct from the granting of guarantees, was discontinued in June, 1922.
Trade Facilities Act
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the amount that has been advanced under the Trade Facilities Act?
The total amount covered by the guarantees, which up to date the Treasury has expressed its willingness to give under the Trade Facilities Acts, is £54,842,311.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the losses up to date?
The determined losses are not very serious, but there are two cases outstanding that will require to be negotiated but I think I must ask for a little more time before I can say anything more definite.
Are the Department still refusing to make grants towards shipbuilding firms?
No, that is not so. That is a matter in the hands of the Trade Facilities Committee. The Treasury does not interfere with their discretion, which is exercised on purely business grounds. The hon. Gentleman will remember that before the House rose there was a discussion on the matter and an endeavour was made to make it clear that the Government are in no way opposed to grants to shipbuilding undertakings if a ease can be proved to the satisfaction of the Committee.
Double Taxation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will set up a Committee to consider and report on the position of double taxation?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on this subject on the 6th March, 1924. I understand that the report of the Committee of the League of Nations is under consideration, and I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by action at present on the lines suggested.
Would it not be advisable to set up another Committee to go into the League of Nations Report? It is a very important subject.
I prefer to wait till I get the Report.
The Report is already out —in March, 1924.
The whole of the arrangements for the relief of double taxation between this country and Ireland present a very difficult problem. The matter at present is in a fluid state. The Inland Revenue authorities are exploring the whole matter and it would be premature to say anything further.
Inter-Allied Debts
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any further information to give to the House with regard to any suggested dates for the commencement of the paying of French and Italian debts to this country?
I would refer the hon. Member to the Note to the French Minister of Finance of the 6th February, which was published on the 9th February.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information with regard to Italy?
No, I have not.
South Africa (Incorporation of Bechuanaland)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give an assurance that no steps be taken to concur in any way with the incorporation of Bechuanaland, or Basutoland, or Swaziland in the Union of South Africa before an opportunity has been given to this House to record its opinion on this matter of our responsibility for and to the native races?
In accordance with the pledges given when the South Africa Bill was before Parliament, the House will have the fullest opportunity of discussing and, if they wish, of disapproving any proposed transfer of these territories to the Union.
Industries (Subsidies)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to subsidise, out of the public purse, other industries in addition to that of beet sugar; and, if so, what these industries are?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative: the second part does not, therefore, arise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are other industries equally anxious to make large profits out of the public purse?
National Federation Ofpostal and Telegraph Clerks
( on behalf of Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS) asked the Postmaster-General if he is prepared to accord recognition to the National Federation of Postal and Telegraph Clerks?
I have asked the Federation to let me have some further information bearing on their claim, and, on receipt, of it, I will consider the matter further.
Does my hon. Friend know that negotiations in regard to this matter have been pressing for some years, and that it is nearly time some definite reply was given to this important organisation?
I should like to tell my hon. Friend that I saw a deputation from the Federation two days ago. It was obvious that further information is required, and they promised to let me have it, and I am now awaiting it.
Loss of S.S. "Edith Cavell"
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information as to the arrest and imprisonment of Captain Joys at St. Laurent, French Guiana, on charge of wilfully casting away the s.s. "Edith Cavell" on 30th November last; whether the vessel was not in port and in charge of French pilot when she went aground, and whether the owners do not exonerate the master and officers from all blame; whether he can state what steps have been taken to obtain Captain Joys' release, and whether they have been successful?
On a point of Order, Sir. Are you aware that I have a, question in very similar terms to this on the Order Paper, of which I gave notice for to-morrow?
No, I was not aware of that.
The s.s. "Edith Cavell" struck a rock at St. Laurent, in the Maroni River, French Guiana, on 30th November, and, in spite of efforts to get her off, became a total wreck. A French pilot was in charge of the ship at the time. The owners exonerate the master and officers from all blame, but the master and first officer were charged by the local French authorities with casting away their ship and were arrested and imprisoned. On instructions from His Majesty's Government, representations were made to the French authorities by His Majesty's Consul at Paramaribo and the officers were released on hail on the 6th instant. His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris is also in communication with the French Government, who have telegraphed to the Government of French Guiana for full details. The hon. Member may rest assured that His Majesty's Government, are watching the case closely and will take all possible steps to safeguard the British interests involved.
May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the notices of Motion and Orders of the Day to No. 11, on page 18, for Monday, l6th February, and point out that there is a very similar question down on the Paper. I am very glad, of course, that my hon. Friend put his question, because I only want, to help these men, but the etiquette of the House in these matters is well known. May I also inform you that I put this question at the direct request of the Merchant Service Marine Association, of which I have the honour to be a Vice-President?
I see that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is correct. There is a Question down for Monday, but I do not think, in the circumstances, the hon. and gallant Gentleman objects to the Question having been dealt with to-day.
Notices of Motion
Summer Time
On behalf of my hon. Friend (Sir Harry Hope) I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, he will call attention to the necessity for making permanent Summer Time, and move a Resolution.
May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman has been requested by his hon. Friend to give this Notice?
On these occasions I think it is understood that hon. Members act in groups. I have seen this done on all sides of the House—one Member giving notice of a Motion on behalf of another.
May I point out that I myself been called to Order for the same thing?
I do not think so.
May I point out that in the last House one of the Labour Members was deliberately ruled out of Order by the Chair for doing the same kind of thing that is allowed to-day. [HON. MEMBERS: "That was a question !"] I want to raise this point of Order, that last Session, as can he proved by reference to the record of the OFFICIAL REPORT, a Labour Member was ruled out of Order for doing exactly the same kind of thing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order !"] I want to rail- this point of Order if the gentlemen, the so-called gentlemen, across the floor—[HON. MEMBERs: "Order !"]
Local and Municipal Expenditure
I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I will call attention to local and municipal expenditure, and move a Resolution.
Food Prices Commission
I beg to give notice that, on this day fortnight, I will call attention to the Royal Commission on Food Prices and its proceedings, and move a Resolution.
Bicycles (Lighting Regulations)
I beg to give notice that, on this clay fortnight, I will call attention to the existing lighting regulations for bicycles, and move a Resolution.
Anglo-Italian Treaty (East African Territories) Bill
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Order [18th December] for committing the Anglo-Italian Treaty (East African Territories) Bill to a Standing Committee be read, and discharged, and that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
May I ask why it is necessary for this Resolution to be put dawn in this form?
There is no intention of curtailing debate. The necessity for putting down this Resolution arises simply through an inadvertence which occurred when the Bill was committed to a Standing Committee, instead of to a Committee of the Whole House.
I quite agree that it should come before a Committee of the Whole House, and I wondered at the time why this was not done.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Wireless Telegraphy Andsignalling Bill,
"to re-enact and amend the Law relating to wireless telegraphy, and to make provision with respect to visual and sound signalling and the use of etheric waves for the transmission of energy," presented by Sir WILLIAM MITCHELL-THOMSON; supported by Viscount Wolmer; to be rend a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 20.]
Orders of the Day
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departmentssupplementary Estimates, 1924–25
Class I
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £58,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."
May I ask for some explanation as to the provision of refuges in Hyde Park, and in particular whether they include the extraordinary arrangements near Buckingham Palace for twinkling green lights. What is the object of this? I know we have had a good many questions on this point. Why should we have these twinkling lights at all? What good purpose do they serve, and is it not time they were removed?
May I point out that this Estimate deals only with the additional sum required on this Vote, and it is not in order to discuss the whole policy of new works under the Vote. The hon. and gallant Member must confine his remarks on this item to the difference between the £3,000 and the £5,000.
This sum has been put down under new works, and I thought I should be in order in asking a simple question on those lines. Of course if I am not in order I will not press the matter. This is a point which has not been raised in the House before, and it is a new departure, and I should be glad if we could have a word of explanation in regard to it.
Nearly the whole of the money asked for in this Vote is in connection with the relief of the un- employed, and I hope it will be regarded as non-controversial. The whole matter has been organised to try and absorb some of the unemployed. With reference to the question put to me about the refuges, this has been rendered necessary on account of the great increase of traffic in Hyde Park, because taxi-cabs are now being allowed to go through the park.
I would remind the Under-Secretary that I declined to allow the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) to deal with those details, and I must confine the discussion to the difference between the £5,000 and the £3,000.
The only reason for the increase is because we are undertaking certain works for the relief of the unemployed.
I (lo not wish to stand in the way of anything that is being done for relieving the unemployed. but I do not think that ought to rule out inquiries as to whether that is the best kind of work to do in order to relieve the unemployed.
I would like to ask if this is really the kind of work the present Government anticipate to fall in this financial year? It seems to me to be nothing of any value in the way of relieving the unemployed. There must be a huge amount of work to be done under this Vote, but I am afraid that this provision does not show any very great enthusiasm on the part of the present Government to find employment I think we ought to have some better explanation of what is anticipated—
The Under-Secretary was giving an explanation and I stopped him because it was out of order.
Surely I am entitled to ask for an explanation of the items that are contained in this Vote.
I did not want to weary the Committee with the various details, but I would like to point out that they only refer to the financial year up to the 31st March next. The Point referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull was only one item, but I would like to point out that we are employing people in nearly all the London and country parks, such as St James's Park, the Green Park, Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, Richmond Park, Bushey Park, Hampton Court Park and elsewhere, and in all these parks we are doing our best to absorb a certain portion of the local unemployed. We are undertaking such work as drainage in Hyde Park. We are raising the level of the Serpentine one inch in order to create a reserve of 1,000,000 gallons of water which can be used for Buckingham Palace Gardens and St. James's Park. In regard to Regent's Park, it has been bitterly complained that there has been no proper lavatory accommodation, and we are dealing with that. I might go through all these parks and say exactly what is being done, but I did not want to occupy the time of the Committee. I can assure he hon. Gentleman that all these works are in the nature of useful works, and we have been successful in absorbing a good many of the unemployed. Upon this item alone to which the hon. Gentleman is referring, we have 700 men employed, and we are paying them a very good rate of wages. We are paying them, in the London parks, 50s. 0d. a week, and in the country parks 45s. 6d. The men concerned are mostly unskilled men. We are doing our best to absorb as much unskilled labour as possible.
On a point of Order. In view of the difficulty which I think a good many Members of the Committee have in discussing this Estimate, and seeing that this is a question of acceleration of work, would you permit a discussion on the item of £49,000 relating to maintenance and repairs? That would permit of a rather wider discussion than if the Debate were confined merely to the one or two specific points which my hon. Friend has mentioned.
Certainly, it would be in order to discuss the question of the expenditure of £49,000 for accelerating repair and maintenance works, but it would not be in order to enter into a general discussion of the policy of the Office of Works. The discussion must be confined to the works undertaken in the Royal Parks.
Would it be in order, on the headings covered by the £49,000, to raise the question that this sum is insufficient, and ought to be greater?
No, I think not.
The point I want to make is this: If an hon. Member can prove that this work is not being done properly, because the expenditure of £49,000 ought to be greater in order that the work may be properly done, would it not be in order for him to argue that the Supplementary Estimate should not be passed because the sum granted under this heading is insufficient?
It would be in order to say that this money is being wasted or improperly expended, but it would not be in order to base upon that an argument for a larger programme of public work.
If an hon. Member can prove that the work under this heading is not being properly done because the sum proposed to be spent is insufficient, would it be in order for him to argue that this insufficient sum ought to be increased in order that the work may be properly done?
No; that would involve a matter of policy, and the hon. Member will have to wait for the full Estimates for the next financial year.
I am not satisfied that this item is receiving proper treatment from the Committee. According to the heading, this is
"further provision for New Works and for accelerating the overtaking of arrears of Maintenance for tile purpose of relieving Unemployment."
I am convinced that this is not doing anything in the way of overtaking arrears of maintenance, and I am satisfied that the sum is quite inadequate for this purpose. I think, therefore, that I am entitled to discuss the question, not of general unemployment or of relief works generally, but the question of relief works and the employment of unemployed men in so far as that problem can be tackled by maintenance works and the acceleration of the overtaking of arrears in connection with the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens. The Under-Secretary has told us, in his very brief explanation, that this scheme is employing, I think he said, 400 men—
Seven hundred.
Is not that a very pitiable contribution to the relief of unemployment?
That is only one item.
On the whole of this item 700 men are being employed to raise the Serpentine one inch. I would like to know—
That is only a part of the work.
I want to know what argument there is for raising the Serpentine only one inch. From the very sketchy outline that the Under-Secretary gave us, it seemed to me that, if raising it one inch is going to be of value, then raising it three inches would be three times the value, and presumably would employ three times the number of men. I am not satisfied that we are paying these men a very good wage. The hon. Gentleman tells us that £2 10s. and £2 5s. is regarded by his Government as a good wage. As a matter of fact, it is not a living wage. You cannot meet the ordinary charges of maintaining bare physical efficiency in a working man's home with £2 10s. or £2 5s., and I think we ought to have some explanation as to why there is this difference of 5s. Why not pay them all £2 10s.? I really think that all these matters ought to be debated thoroughly in this Committee before we proceed to grant this very moderate sum. I am quite sure that all the hon. Members sitting on these benches would be prepared to double this expenditure on Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens, which, after all, are not a primary enthusiasm of most of my hon. Friends.
Why not?
We are here to represent the big mass of the electors [ Interruption. ]
We represent the miserable minority.
There is not very much difference—
The majorities by which hon. Members were returned are quite outside the scope of this Vote.
I did not say that we were returned here by a majority of votes; I said we were returned here to represent the majority. We are really returned here to look after the interests of the working class. [ Interruption. ] As is evidenced by the interruptions, hon. Members are much more interested in the Royal Parks and in the Royal Family than they are in the £2 10s. wages. It is one thing to be returned by working-class votes, and it is another thing to represent them when you are returned. I really think that the hon. Members around me would be very pleased indeed to see this sum considerably increased, even for the purpose of improving Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens, provided that the tens of thousands of men who could be employed on these works are being paid something which, while it does not give them the Royal standard of life, is something better than the £2 10s. and £2 5s. level, which is not a living wage at the present time.
You are speaking of raising the water level one inch on the Serpentine. When the water level was lowered in St. James' Park you endangered the foundations of the surrounding buildings. Now you say by raising the level of the Serpentine one inch you are going to have so many thousand gallons extra on the surface. I have been to see the Serpentine more than once, and you are doing something that is more expensive if less dangerous. You have taken not the slightest consideration of the existing angle at which the concrete is set. [ Interruption. ] A gentleman from the land of moving mountains is trying to give me hints, but we are more acquainted with water in Scotland than they are in Wales, and as the concrete dries cracks will take place and the water will get through. I want to ask the hon. Gentleman what will take Place when the concrete gives way. I know the difficulties of keeping in order, but, as Mark Twain said of the man who conducted the funeral, I am doing my level best. The raising of the water level will mean that you are going to disturb the life at the bottom of the pond. As you change the pressure of water you change the conditions of life at the bottom. It is well known to anglers that the depth of the water tells you the sort of things you want to catch when fishing. A worm at a depth of 12 inches is no use for catching fish in a three-foot pond. The difference in the quality of a worm at 18 inches compared with what it is at three inches is extraordinary. You destroy the natural food that is in the mud by altering the water-level. You are not going to get the kind of life that there should be in a pond like those in our Royal Parks. You are going to get an emaciated, unemployed type of worm. What I want to know is this. In increasing by one inch the water-level, how has the hon. Gentleman calculated the number of gallons? If you look at the Serpentine you will see that you have no definite area marked out as to what is to be the level of the spread of your water. Therefore you cannot tell how many thousands of gallons you are going to get. But we can lend you a Scottish measure which will give it you pretty near it. You say the money you are spending is for the relief of the unemployed, but no money should be spent on bad workmanship. That is waste. The workmanship that went on in St. James' Park, now being continued in this park, is nothing but what I consider stamped work, especially for our Royal Parks. You have your cracks now, as I pointed out two years ago, across the way. You are going to have this more serious, because you will get them near the edge. I should like to know if it is going to be the practice that any kind of scamped work is to be made an excuse in order to tell us you are doing something for the unemployed.
We all know the hon. Member has great engineering knowledge in these matters. I cannot pretend to any technical knowledge, but I can assure him that very expert engineers have been in charge of this work, and I think perhaps may allay a certain amount of criticism if I remind hon. Members opposite that the whole programme in this Vote was laid down by the Labour Government.
Question put, and agreed to.
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,020, he granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings."
4.0 P.M.
I hope that we shall have some statement from the Minister on this Vote, because we really are being asked to vote a considerable sum of money for these two Legations, one Budapest, and the other at Prague. The House will remember that last year, or the year before, we undertook to buy very expensive buildings at Budapest in order to house the British Legation there properly. There was considerable comment made at the time with regard to this purchase. Up to that time the British Minister at Budapest had lived in hired quarters, which I should have said were amply sufficient for the dignity of any British Minister abroad. Then, for reasons which were never made quite clear, it was decided to make this expensive acquisition in Budapest, and we were told what the cost would be. The estimate now, I see, has gone up, and I should like to know what is the increased cost of this building, what is the reason of the increase, and whether the Minister is really satisfied that we are not being rushed into further extravagance in connection with the Budapest Legation. After all, Hungary, important as it has been in history, is now, unfortunately, a small country, and we cannot afford to have Legations costing anything from £25,000 to £50,000 in the capitals of all these succession States. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to give us sufficient reasons for the increase in the cost, and some information as to what the increased cost is due.
I next turn to Prague. It is really a much worse case, because there the total expenditure is to be nearly £54,000 and Czechslovakia is not really a country sufficiently large to justify such an enormous expenditure upon the British Legation there. I would like to know what the purchase price of the house has been, whether the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that it was a fair price, and what proportion of this very large sum is due to alterations and additions subsequent to the purchase. Thirdly, we have this new item of £8,500 for the new Consulate-General at Rabat. I hope that this expenditure at Rabat is not going to be a precedent for similar expenditure throughout the Middle East. I do not suppose that the whole trade of Rabat is worth very much, and I should like to know what trade is going through Rabat to justify this expenditure, and whether the hon. Gentleman believes that £8,500 will be the total sum and that we shall not have another estimate for this place. Perhaps he will tell us in what other ports in the Middle East we have Consular-Generals, or whether Rabat stands alone.
I should like to offer a word of comment on what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has said with regard to the second item in this Vote. I cannot agree that Czechslovakia is a minor country. There is no country of the Succession States that, since the Armistice, has developed more than this very powerful land of some 17,000,000 people. I should like, on the other hand, heartily to congratulate the Office of Works on obtaining, in the midst of the beautiful city of Prague, this absolutely unique site. Some two years ago I went round this city with a Minister of one of the great Powers on a hunt for a possible Legation, and we came to the conclusion that with the exception of one or two of the large palaces, which it might be possible to obtain, it was absolutely hopeless to obtain possesion of any house in the centre of Prague which might be considered the right kind of Legation for one of the great Powers. I need not remind any colleagues of mine who know Czechslovakia how very important it is for Great Britain to be represented and housed in the right way in Prague. The town palace of the family of Thun is absolutely unique; it is a magnificent building; and it will not only house the Minister, but there will he room in it to house the various secretaries when the alterations have been made. From what I know of prices in that city, I am perfectly convinced that it would cost a great deal more to buy land as near the centre as you can get and to erect a Legation. I know something also of the prices asked by the Thun family, and seeing the figure at which the British Government are going to acquire it, I most heartily congratulate the Office of Works on the bargain that they have made.
I am delighted to endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) has said. I think it would have been a calamity if these premises at Prague had been lost. Their suitability for the purpose is quite unique, and I am very agreeably surprised to see that they were obtained, including the cost of alterations, for the figure stated in the paper. I would like to join with my hon. Friend in congratulating the Office of Works on having made so satisfactory a purchase, because in a country like Czechslovakia, where the interests and influence of Great Britain, I am glad to say, are in the ascendant, it would have been a great misfortune if our Minister had not been adequately and properly housed, and there are certainly no premises more suitable or more dignified than those referred to in the Estimate.
I wish to say one word about the proposed building for our Consular-General at Rabat. The future of Rabat probably is very great. I cannot say what the trade of the Port may be at the present time, but it must rapidly and greatly develop. Rabat consists of an ancient city, and outside there is a modern French city. This modern French city is one of the most beautiful things in the world that has been built in modern times. It is built with an entirely new style of architecture invented by the French, and it is really one of the most charming cities in the world. I hope that we shall not go and put down there a Consulate-General built in some style that will not harmonise with those beautiful buildings which the French have set up. I am horrified to imagine that we might go and put down some monstrosity which would redound to our discredit in years to come. I hope that the Office of Works will employ an architect to build this Consulate-General who will see that the building is in harmony with the beautiful new buildings erected by the French in that city.
I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us if the answer that he gave with reference to the last Vote applies pretty generally to the whole of these Votes that are being put before us to-day, namely, that the expenditure was incurred or arranged for by his predecessors in office, and that the Votes remained substantially unchanged, not that I personally would accept that as being the last word of wisdom or as necessarily barring criticism, but because it would, none the less, be a guidance to those on these benches to know that these Supplementary Estimates had really been incurred as the result of policies initiated under the previous Government. On this Vote I want to ask if he will give us some explanation why in Prague we have to pay £53,800 for the purchase and adaptation of a Legation House? It seems to me an extraordinary sum of money for the housing accommodation of one man when you consider that £500 was regarded as a rather extravagant amount to pay for a working-class house. It seems to me to be a very large sum of money indeed, even supposing that it is more than a residence and is probably the headquarters or official offices in that country. Presumably, the Consular-General at Rabat is also the representative of British dignity, and there we are making provision at a total cost of £8,500.
What about the buildings of the National Union of Railwaymen at St. Pancras?
They are in Pancras, and they are looking after the affairs of a million people.
Yes, but the Legation is looking after the interests of about 40 million people.
That is not the point. The hon. and gallant Member's interruption would have been more relevant at an earlier stage in my speech. The man at Prague requires £53,000 to represent British interests, and there we are not building a new residence; we are only buying and adapting an old one. At Rabat we are spending only £8,500 to acquire a site and to build an entirely new residence. Our dignity in Prague is about six times as expensive as our dignity in Rabat, or is it that the Legation at Prague has a bigger family? It seems to me that there ought to be some similarity in the amounts that we are spending in these various places. We have a right to ask about these things, and I hope the Minister will give an explanation—I have no doubt there is an explanation—why there is this very big difference.
In regard to, the first general question put by the hon. Member, I cannot tie myself down absolutely, but I believe I am correct in saying that Substantially the whole of this programme is the programme arranged and agreed upon by the late Government before the present Government took office.
May I draw attention to the starred paragraph at the foot of the Estimates:
"Token provision is made in order to secure Parliamentary approval for the work. It is anticipated that no payments will fall to be made before the 31st March, 1925"
I think that confirms what I have said. It is true that they are Token Votes. We are only asking for the authority of Parliament in respect to the approval of certain transactions. It had already been practically agreed that this transaction should go through. These negotiations in regard to Prague have been going on for over a, year. The reason for the difference in the estimated cost of the proposed works at Prague and Rabat is that in the case of Prague you have an old city, a very valuable site and enormously high rates, while in the case of Rabat you have practically a country where at the present time land is very cheap, and the conditions are quite different. That is one reason. There is the further reason, that in the case of Prague you are catering for a Minister and in the other ease you are catering for a Consul-General. Perhaps that, is not so important a reason as the ether I have mentioned, but if we take both reasons together, they account Pit the difference in the cost.
Prague has aroused most interest. The right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) was the only Member who referred to Budapest. He asked why there has been an increase in the Estimate respecting the works in progress at Budapest. There are three reasons. In the first place, there has been a great difference in the rates of exchange, which have been more or less adverse during part of the period. In the second place, the prices of materials and labour have gone up.
Surely, everybody knows that the Hungarian exchange has fallen as compared with the pound. In the case of a pound sent from here to Hungary, surely it would go further now than in the original Estimate.
That is one fluctuation, but there have been great fluctuations and, taking them as a whole, the fluctuations have been against us. That is my information, and I think the right hon. Gentleman might accept it. The third reason is that in 1923–24 there was very severe weather which very badly damaged the interior of the house. The damage was not discovered until the interior of the premises was inspected. I suppose the water had got through and done a great deal of damage. These reasons account for the increase in the Estimate respecting Budapest.
In regard to Prague, the right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme and the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) both criticised the expenditure. It is rather a long history. I could give it if hon. Members wish it, but I will not worry the Committee with all the details. The history of the transactions, more or less, is that the negotiations have been going on for a very long time in regard to the purchase of the Legation House at Prague. It belonged to a certain Count Thun, who wanted us to pay a very large sum for the house about a year ago. He asked very nearly £100,000. The exact sum asked was £99,000. We have been waiting for that excessive demand to come down, and hon. Members opposite will be very pleased to hear that, owing to a Capital Levy in Czechslovakia, Count Thun has had to sell out quickly and to reduce his demand very largely. Now Count Thun is only asking £47,000, roughly half of the original amount demanded, and included in that sum is an amount of £5,000 for furniture. The difficulty about waiting any longer is that our lease has run out. Our lease of the building ran out in December last, and we shall have to vacate the building unless we come to some settlement. The hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) and the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) have pointed out that sites in the centre of Prague are very expensive, and that we should probably have to pay infinitely more if we went elsewhere and tried to buy a site. I can assure hon. Members that we have looked into this question very carefully. We have hung it up for a whole year, trying to get cheaper terms, and we have managed exactly to halve the original demand of Count Thun.
With respect to the erection of the new Consulate-General at Rabat, the hon. Member for the Combined Universities (Sir M. Conway) said that he was afraid we might build something very ugly next door to a very beautiful building owned by the French. We are now only asking for money for the purchase of the site, and not for the erection of the building. That will come later.
Is the site to cost £8,500?
No. The site will cost £1,300, and the total expenditure for the site and the buildings will be £8,500. We are only asking for a Token Vote of £10 towards the purchase of the site, and for permission to proceed with the contract in regard to the site. The right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme said that he did not see the necessity for this expenditure. I was talking the other day to a very distinguished member of this House who has just come back from this part of the world, and he said the development of the place was absolutely amazing. The French are setting out to develop the country in every way, and it has always been our custom where development is taking place to appoint a distinguished representative to look after British interests.
What is our trade there at the present time?
I am afraid I cannot say, but I can tell my right hon. Friend that it is developing greatly and that the French are developing the country enormously. That is the reason why we want this Consul-General appointed and a house provided for him. I can give details of the present house. It was originally meant for a stable. It was built at the beginning of the 19th Century and is utterly unsuitable for a married man. I understand that you cannot drive up to the house, as there is only a little path leading to it.
The hon. Member has told us that a Capital Levy which has been made in Czechslovakia has reduced the value of house property by about one-half, while on the other hand he said that we must buy speedily because land values were rising there. Are we, therefore, to take it that a heavy Capital Levy would immediately raise the values of land in this country?
I think the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Locker-Lampson) was somewhat imprudent when he assigned the Capital Levy as one of his reasons. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) cannot pursue the point.
Are the premises referred to at Budapest the same premises that were occupied by the Legation in 1923? Is it an adaptation of the premises which housed the Legation in 1923, or are they new premises?
We have bought premises which, I think, were in the last main Estimates. We are making provision for an adaptation of these new premises.
Not the premises occupied in 1923?
No.
Question put, and agreed to.
Public Buildings, Great Britain
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £54,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, including Historic Buildings, Ancient Monuments, and Brompton Cemetery."
Estimates in respect of unemployment relief works come under this Vote, and I do not wish to criticise the putting on of men who are unemployed. Nevertheless, the particular purpose is open to question, and I should be glad if the hon. Member would give us some information in regard to the Stationery Office in Princes Street. I have been up and down that street for 60 years and the Stationery Office has been there all the time. The building is very unsatisfactory. It occupies an exceedingly valuable site for purposes not all of which are absolutely necessary on so costly a site, just opposite to this House. I understand that the policy of the Government for years back has been to move the Stationery Office from this valuable centre to another building and that another building was erected for the purpose. Therefore, it seems to me rather extraordinary that if that remains the policy of the Government we should now be proposing to instal central heating and electric lighting in this old building, which has gone on for so long without electric lighting and central heating. No doubt the reason why these installations have not been made has been that the building was to be abandoned and the work transferred to other premises. The War came along, and I believe the prospective premises were temporarily used for some other purpose.
I should like the hon. Member to explain whether the policy of transferring the Stationery Office to a less expensive site has been abandoned, and whether the installation at a cost of £3,500 of central heating and electric lighting indicates a change of policy. Is the Stationery Office to remain on its present site in Princes Street for ever? If not, and if it is to be transferred next year, is it not rather extravagant to put in electric lighting and central heating? A cry large economy could be made by transferring the Stationery Office from Princes Street, and disposing of this very valuable site. The use of this fine site of something like an acre of ground, within a few hundred yards of this House, for such comparatively humble purposes as binding and storing the masses of papers which have to be kept there seems to me to be an extravagance. Are we to understand that it is intended to transfer the Stationery Office to some other site? If so is it wise to be spending this large sum in putting in central heating and electric lighting when the building will have to be taken down as soon as it is vacated by the Stationery Office?
The present arrangement is only temporary. It is intended eventually to sell the site, but this money is being spent now in order to put the premises in a sanitary condition. The present condition is extremely bad, and we are merely improving it until we can make a further arrangement. So far as I know, there will be no delay in making some other arrangement, but until that is done we must improve the existing conditions of affairs.
I did hope that the hon. Gentleman would tell us something more about the expenditure under this Vote, because the business part of the expenditure is the £70,960 for maintenance and repairs. I hope that some of that money is being spent on historic buildings and ancient monuments besides the Brompton Cemetery. I was wondering whether we could not get some of this money applied to the preservation, at any rate, of some of the old castles, for instance, Tutbury Castle. A small expenditure on some of these old castles would preserve the fabrics which constitutes a very interesting old historical monument. There are numbers of these ancient historical monuments crumbling to pieces for want of a little expenditure on cement and brickwork and maintenance work of that sort. I do not believe that there is a better subject for such expenditure than some of these historical monuments which are scattered about the country, and which the counties cannot keep up on account of the smallness of the funds at their disposal.
I am glad that this question has been raised. Out of this £70,000 we are spending no less than £37,000 on ancient monuments. That money is being spent chiefly on constructing pathways, levelling grounds, fencing and various approach work.
Not on the preservation of the fabric.
On work connected with the preservation of the monument itself, £3.000 is being expended in that way.
Question put, and agreed to.
House Building
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of the erection of Houses by the Office of Works on behalf of Local Authorities proceeding with assisted Housing Schemes approved by the Ministry of Health in accordance with the provisions of the Housing, Town Planning, Etc., Act, 1919."
This small estimate covers a very great principle. I would remind the Committee that for some extraordinary reasons the late Government practically suspended the beneficent work of the Office of Works with regard to housing. Under the auspices of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) the Office of Works was one of the most successful building agencies in the country, and built houses very cheaply, considering all the opposition with which it met, and when we had the Labour Government in power, many of them Socialists, for some extraordinary reason, though they had Mr. Jowett, who is not with us now and who is a great loss, as First Commissioner of Works, they did not encourage a continuance of this really splendid piece of practical housebuilding. Here is a chance for the Conservative Government to repair the error which was then made. They have at their disposal magnificent machinery which is capable of infinite expansion. I have always maintained—and nothing would convince me to the contrary—that during the last few years we could have made up the shortage of housing through the action of the Office of Works working on national lines. But for some reason or other the last. Government—
The hon. Member is now turning to the past. He is not entitled to criticise the administrative acts of other Governments, but must confine his criticism to the administrative acts of the present Government.
On this occasion I cannot congratulate the present Government. Every penny spent on building houses is a matter of great benefit to the country, and it is astonishing that the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Vote is only asking for £10 to make up for the woeful lack of housing accommodation.
I regret that this sum to be spent on housing is not larger. In my constituency the Office of Works have a great area. Under the Ministry of the right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) large reforms were carried out. He built on the site opposite to that which the Office of Works have now many hundreds of very good houses which are inhabited at present, and I remember that, when speaking here, he boasted of the law prices at which he could build those houses as against the prices charged by private builders at that time. Last year Mr. Jowett decided to replace the old wooden huts by new houses of a type similar to those which have been built on the other side of the road, but he found himself up against the 1923 Act which prohibited such buildings and which was passed by a Conservative Government aided and abetted by the Liberals. The result is that people are living in wooden huts at the present time on account of the action of the previous Conservative Government, which prevented the Office of Works doing what was necessary. I, too, regret that this sum is not greater. I would wish to see the Office of Works resume its activities in order to house people all over the country. In my own Division—and I am sure the same thing occurs in other Divisions—the Office of Works are in possession of areas on which they are spending money making roads and making the place look nice, but yet they cannot spend money to build houses as a previous First Commissioner of Works did.
The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) complain that we are not spending enough money under this Vote. There is a certain amount of misconception about this because the Office of Works do not build any houses unless they are specially asked to do so by the Ministry of Health. If the Ministry of Health find that the local authority are experiencing difficulty in arranging contracts for building houses they approach the Office of Works and ask us to step in as an agency for the local authorities. Whenever we are asked to do that we do step in. We act merely as agents for the local authority, and every penny which we spend is recouped to us by the local authority. Therefore it is not our fault that we are riot spending more money. We have not been asked to do so. We are spending simply the amount which we have been asked to spend by the local authorities through the Ministry of Health.
There is still in being the magnificent machinery built up by the right hon. Member for Carmarthen. It is one of the few good things that were done by the Coalition Government, and that at least ought to remain. We have this great housebuilding machinery with its architects and splendid body of workmen, and it is capable of indefinite expansion. Are these people being dispersed or are their numbers being cut down or is the machinery being kept in being, for, as I hope, a greater expansion in a short time as a result of my appeal to-day?
I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would tell us what is the nature of the appropriation-in-aid that will come into this account?
We do not want in the least to close down; we would like to go on with this work. As long as the local authorities want an agent to help them to arrange their contracts in building houses we shall do the work, I suppose, should the House so desire.
This is the point. There are great areas of Government land. The Government is one of the greatest landowners in the country. Why should the Government not build houses on Government land near populous areas straight away, without waiting for the local authorities?
The Minister has explained that this item is for expenditure incurred at the request of the local authorities. There may be other opportunities of discussing on the main Estimate what the policy Of the Office of Works should be. The limits within which discussion on this Estimate is permissible are very narrow.
The appropriation-in-aid is merely the amount of money repaid by the local authorities le the Office of Works.
Are we to understand that we F;d1 these houses to the local authorities or erect them for local authorities in competition with private enterprise or where private enterprise has failed to come in, and that the local authority does not cover the full costs? There is a difference of a few pounds between the cost of erecting and the amount that the authorities pay. Should not the charge from the Office of Works to the local authorities cover the total expenditure incurred, including staffs and general expenses?
It does cover the general expenses. We charge the local authorities not only the whole cost of the building, but overhead charges. If we employ direct labour we charge 3 per cent. for overhead charges. If we do not employ direct labour and the work is done by a contractor, we charge 2 per cent. for overhead charges. We now employ practically no direct labour at all. Where we get a reasonable tender the work is put out to contract.
Does that mean that there is now no skeleton machinery at the Office of Works for the direct erection of buildings? Does it mean that there is not even a staff which can take on direct work for the building industry?
Sometimes we do it by the direct method. We rather avoid competition. We much prefer, where we get a reasonable tender, not to employ direct labour.
Question put, and agreed to.
Housing Schemes
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £61.975, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in respect of Housing Schemes under the Management of the Office of Works."
It would be helpful if the Minister would give us some detailed information as to this expenditure, which is largely on unemployed relief work. I do not think that the Committee will object to the size of the sum, but rather hoped that it would be a larger figure, in view of the abnormal amount of unemployment in the country. Obviously it is a wise expenditure of public money to get value in return rather than to distribute unemployment benefit for no service rendered. What are the various items for which this money has been spent? The information would be some guide for future occasions. We could see whether it is not possible to extend the operations of the Office of Works under the housing schemes, so that in future more work might be done and greater advantage taken of the expenditure of public money. I am certain that the Committee will not object to the laying-out of estates, the making of roads, or the preparing of sites for these houses, which are so badly needed. There is very little information on the subject in the White Paper.
As the Committee knows, the hon. Member takes a great interest in this housing question. He will realise that this is merely a relic from the War. During the War we had to find premises for munition workers. In 1920 the Munitions Department came to an end, and the administration of the estate was handed over to the Office of Works. That is what we are doing now. In order to absorb a certain number of the unemployed we are spending this money on new works and on maintenance. As a matter of fact we are doing our best to employ the tenants of these houses to enable them to pay their arrears of rent. That is a very good policy. We are constructing roads and giving them a good foundation. Many complaints had been received about them. Under the heading of "Repairs" there are all sorts of minor improvements, such as the re-covering of roofs, the making of drains, and so forth. Our whole object is to make these estates as good as possible from the housing point of view, and at the same time to employ those people who are down on their luck and happen to be tenants in arrears with their rent.
Can we have information as to the average rents charged? How many evictions have taken place, and what were the reasons for them? In speaking of winding up national affairs, did the Minister refer to Gretna, and did the statement include what the last Tory Government did in regard to Gretna? Is he aware that, when the Tories were last in power, they sold houses at Gretna, national property, for one-eighth of the cost at which they were built, and are we being asked now to vote additional sums of money?
That is outside the scope of the present Vote. If the Government sold the houses, it is not likely that they would be keeping them in repair.
If the houses had not been sold for one-eighth of the cost, would the Government require to come to the House for money for repairs? The last Government was in office only, and not in power. What we are discussing now relates, not to the Labour Government, but to what was done when the Conservatives were in power. If we cannot get the information in regard to rents and the number of evictions, cannot this Estimate be suspended until the information is supplied?
The hon. Member would be in order in moving that I report Progress.
Can the Minister give any information as to the proportion of the money spent at Gretna and as 10 whether the class of property built at Gretna was not superior to any class of houses built elsewhere on anything belonging to the nation?
The rents vary in the different localities. In fixing a rent we always have regard to the local conditions. Some rents are lower than others, owing to the fact that in a particular locality rents generally range lower than those in other places. I have made inquiries with regard to evictions. There may have been one or two, but, practically speaking, there has been none on any of these estates. I cannot give the hon. Member information about Gretna because I have not got it. If he will put a question on the Paper I shall be glad to answer it.
With regard to Gretna, it is very important that the Minister should go into the question very carefully. Before very long this matter is bound to be brought to the attention of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) is putting forward a plea, and I am supporting him in it. Had the last Govenment as well as the previous Tory Government been careful in what they did regarding the houses at Gretna, and had they listened to us when we drew attention to the fact that the price which was being paid for those houses was ridiculous—
Before we proceed further, I would ask the Minister a question. If those houses at Gretna had been sold for a larger sum, would there have been a larger Appropriation-in-Aid on this Vote?
I ought to explain that Gretna does not come into our housing schemes at all. It is still under the Liquidation Disposal Commission.
5.0 P.M.
Is the body which has just been referred to independent of all control? Can the Disposal Board do what it likes with that which does not belong to it; and when the Disposal Board disposes of anything, does it keep the money?
The hon. Member must reserve his criticisms on that point for the Financial Secretary to the Treasury or the Chancellor of Exchequer. They are not in order on this Vote.
On a point of Order. Am I to be considered out of order because I am not directing my question to Ministers who, as a matter of fact, are not present? Am I to be debarred from criticising this Vote, and is the Vote to be passed without criticism because the Government have not got the people here who can answer my questions?
If the hon. Member puts any question which is relevant to the Vote, he will be entitled to an answer. This question does not arise on the Vote.
May I point out—and ask your ruling on the matter—that a statement has been made by the hon. Member in charge of the Estimate. If he makes a statement on this matter why should I be ruled out of order? Why should the hon. Member be allowed to run away from the fact that he cannot answer?
The statement made by the hon. Member was that he could not answer the question which had been put.
Is not that enough to disqualify any Minister in charge of a Vote as showing that he cannot do his own business. Can I move to suspend these proceedings now?
May I point out to the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) that I would be delighted to answer his question, but it does not come within the scope of this Vote at all: We are dealing here with housing schemes, and Gretna as a matter of fact does not come into our housing schemes, and has nothing whatever to do with this Vote. It is under another Department, and I suggest that the hon. Member should wait until the Vote for that particular Department comes up and he will then he able to raise this question.
Is it the fact that for houses occupied at Gretna by Government employés, the rents are paid to the Liquidation Board, or are the rents paid to the Office of Works?
Not to the Office of Works.
Are they paid to the Liquidation Board?
Ask a policeman.
Is it in order to move the Adjournment?
I have done my best to answer all the questions put by hon. Members opposite which relate to the Office of Works. I have given them all the details which are available in connection with that Department. They are now asking me a question which has nothing whatever to do with the present Vote. I can quite understand the desire of hon. Members to obtain information, and I do not want, them to think that I am withholding information. I have no reason for withholding information but, as I have said, the question does not arise on this Vote and I hope they will allow me to have this Vote now instead of raising points which relate to something quite different.
If the hon. Gentleman satisfies us that the point raised has nothing to do with this Vote, we should be very glad to allow it to proceed. Surely these Government tenants at Gretna are —unless it is another Woolwich business —paying rent to someone and surely it is not to the Liquidation Board.
I should be out of order in answering that point. I can only say that the rents are appropriated in aid of the Vote which bears the Surplus Stores Liquidation Department—the Vote for Royal Commissions. I should not be in order in discussing Gretna on the present Vote.
I wish to ask the Chairman—[ Laughter. ] This is no laughing matter for the people in Gretna to whose case we are trying to call attention. We have to use every means we possibly can. You, Mr. Chairman, know perfectly well it is not so easy for us to get round the Chair. We have to use every possible means to get to the bottom of this matter. We are after the information, and if we cannot get it from this Department we will keep at it until we get it from somewhere else. To me, the question which is put here seems to be very simple, and we are putting it in as plain English as is possible for Scotsmen. This Department is coming to us, the custodians of the nation's money, asking for a sum of £10. Whether it is £10 or £10,000 makes no difference. If it were £10,000 for a building in the capital of Czechslovakia, or some other place like that, it would be grand, but if it was for Clydebank it would be something quite different.
The hon. Member is trying his best to do that which he has just described as being most difficult. He must keep to the subject of the Vote. As hon. Members have already heard, it is not possible to raise the question of Gretna upon it.
The point is that the hon. Gentlemen opposite are trying to make it difficult for us to get the information. They do not want to understand. If they were anxious to understand they would understand. This is part of the game of trying to get the Minister out of a difficulty, because it is self-evident that the Minister is in a difficulty, and it is our business to see that he does not get out of it except by legitimate means. His supporters need not try to laugh us out of court. We are after the truth. We know it will be a very difficult matter to get the truth in the House of Commons. Nevertheless,
"Hope springs eternal in the human breast."
I should be sorry if I had to request the hon. Member to resume his seat.
I hope, Sir, you will not be forced to take that course, because at a later stage this evening I may require to crave your indulgence or the indulgence of whoever may be in the Chair. The point I wish to make is that houses are being sold in Gretna at such a ridiculous figure that this Department is placed in the position of having to come here to ask for money, but, had the usual market value been paid—
The hon. Member has been informed that it is not possible to discuss the sale of the houses at Gretna on this Vote. It arises on another Vote—that for Royal Commissions. The Minister in charge of this Vote cannot reply to the question and it is not in order to discuss it further.
I notice that the original Estimate for housing schemes was £105,110, of which only £250 was estimated for unemployment relief work. I presume the total now required in this Estimate is all for relief work, and that the original Estimate, with the exception of the £250, was for things not specified in this Vote, namely, maintenance, arrears and repairs, and so forth.
Question put, and agreed to.
Rates on Government Property
Resolved:—
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £47,000. be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Rates and Contributions in lieu of Rates, etc., in respect of Government Property, and for Rates on Houses occupied by Representatives of Foreign Powers, and for the Salaries and Expense of the Rating of Government Property Department, and for a Contribution towards the Expenses of the London Fire Brigade."
Class II
Foreign Office
Resolved:—
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £11,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, including the News Department."
Department of Overseas Trade.(Development and Intelligence.)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £7,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Overseas Trade."
I desire to ask a question concerning the Appropriation-in-Aid of £48,128 in connection with the British Industries Fair. I always understood 'that the British Industries Fair paid for itself, and that if there was a loss in one particular year it was put on to the exhibition for the ensuing year, and that therefore the Treasury would not have any loss to make up over a period of years. May I ask if this is so, and, if so, why does this item appear in the Vote?
I will do my best to answer the question put by my hon. Friend. This Vote is an illustration of one of the difficulties which he and I, as Private Members, used to experience in regard to these accounts and is owing to the fact that the period of the trading account did not coincide with the period of the financial year. It may not he inconvenient if I explain this Vote at some length. The amount we require for the British Industries Fair is £6,000. The Milan Exhibition is held annually, and we propose to put up a Pavilion which will be permanent. We shall spend £1,000 this year on Milan and £4,000 will come into next year. We held the British Industries Fair last year in May, and the rents and receipts which would have gone towards the expenses of that fair did not come into the financial year which showed the expenditure. The guillotine fell on the 31st March, 1921 and all the money for rents and receipts up to 31st March went into the pocket of the Treasury. They took that money, and by this curious overlapping we have not been able to use that money and very properly, because Treasury accounts stop on the 31st March. All the receipts went into the Treasury and we cannot deal with them in our bookkeeping this year to set against the expenditures which have been incurred after that date and before 31st March, 1925.
Do they cover the amount?
They will not cover the amount. Therefore we have to come to the House to ask for this Vote, which to all intents and purposes is a matter of an adjustment needed owing to an overlapping of two accounting periods. We had the money, and we paid it into the Treasury before the guillotine came down in March, 1924, and we had very nearly enough to cover the sum for which we are now asking. I think it is only right to say that after nine of these Fairs there has only been under £1,000 lost. I believe these Fairs have done a great deal of good, and the money lost has only amounted to 4 of 1 per cent. on the gross expenditure. But I do not think that for the coming year I can hold out the promise that there will be no loss. The Committee must, I fear, expect a loss. We have, as the Committee knows, the competition of the Wembley Exhibition, and we are not holding a Fair this year, but certain expenditures went on which we were bound to incur until it was decided whether or not we should again open Wembley this year. My explanation may have been rather involved, owing to the fact that this is a difficult accounting item, but I hope I have made it clear to my hon. Friend.
May I ask why the Fair is not being held this year?
Certainly. That is easy to answer. It was decided not to hold it this year as the result of the representations of the trading community, who said that as they were exhibiting at Wembley it would only be painting the lily and gilding refined gold to have, as it were, two Fairs.
Is the hon. Gentleman taking funds to provide for officials and staff being continually employed?
I am not quite sure, but I do not think the Fair officials are permanent. The accounts are from year to year.
Was it a cost borne direct by the Treasury?
Yes, we received a considerable amount of money for rents, and, as I have said, for the last nine years these Fairs have, to all events and purposes, almost paid their way.
Question put, and agreed to.
Secretary for Scotland's Office
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and Subordinate Offices, Expenses under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, Expenses under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, a Subsidy for Steamer Services to the Hebrides, and Grants in respect of Unemployment Schemes."
I think we ought to have some further explanation from the Secretary for Scotland as to what is meant by "a Subsidy for Steamer Services to the Hebrides." Those of us who know something about it have not yet been able to see any service there which appears to have got a Government subsidy.
The arrangement made under previous Governments for a subsidy towards the steamship service to the Western Isles—
The only question in order here is as to the grants in respect of unemployment schemes and certain non-revenue producing works.
I should like very much to know what are the non-revenue producing works that are here estimated for. The footnote gives no indication, and it seems to me that this £10 is a very small sum indeed. If it is merely a Token Vote, we would like to know just exactly what it stands for, and what the ultimate expenditure involved is likely to be.
Under the original scheme for the assistance of the non-revenue producing works—and each scheme, of course, has to be submitted on its merits for consideration—each scheme was only given 65 per cent. assistance. This has now been raised to 75 per cent., on the ground that it would give greater encouragement to local authorities to enter upon these schemes if the grants were raised. Each of these schemes is judged on its merits, and it is because the grant has been raised from 65 per cent. to 75 per cent. that I am now asking for £10 to meet the extra expenditure.
I was under the impression that the 75 per cent. allowance was granted only in certain cases, for I thought there was one case of relief work in Scotland on a big main road where the State was taking the whole 100 per cent. Do I understand that 75 per cent. is now established as the regular State proportion where a scheme put forward by a local authority is approved by the Scottish Office as a genuinely useful relief work?
No. Each of these schemes has to be put up by the local authority and judged on its merits, under regulations approved by the Treasury. That will operate, and all that is asked for here is this Token Vote for the short period before the end of the financial year in order to meet such cases as may arise.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information as to what has been the effect of the better terms offered to the local authorities, and how the applications for assistance compare with the former period?
I do not think I can enter into that on this Vote, but I should be glad le do so on another occasion.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what definite schemes in Scotland come tinder the 75 per cent. proportion that necessitates this Supplementary Vote? He tells us the maximum previously was 65 per cent. of the interest and sinking fund, which has been raised to 75 per cent. on certain schemes, and that 75 per cent. may be approved on schemes between now and the end of the financial year, but there are presumably schemes now in operation on the 75 per cent. basis, and, if so, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what they are, and what schemes are now before his Department from the local authorities?
I cannot give off-hand any list of these various schemes, although I shall be glad to provide the hon. Member with them afterwards, if he so desires. All that we are asking for here is a Token Vote of £10 in order to allow us to meet the rise which has been made, the difference between the 65 per cent. previously allowed and the 75 per cent. now allowed, which is an advantage to the local authorities and, as I under- stand, an encouragement to them to enter into schemes to provide employment at a time like the present.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman anticipate that when he came to the Committee to ask for additional money the Committee would want to know whether there had been applications under the improved terms of the grant? Cannot he tell the Committee whether there have been any such applications and if they have been considered by his Department, and cannot he give us an idea of what the nature of the work included in the schemes is, and the result of the applications which may have been made to the Government?
It seems to me that last year the great reason held out, to Members on that side as well as on this side, for the grant being increased was that we would see an immediate fillip given to the local authorities and their demands for further work to be carried out, and I anticipated to-day that this Vote would not have been one for £10, but one for many thousands of pounds, because of the increased allowance. I want to know now if, in view of this meagre increase that you are asking, you have taken any steps at all to inform the local authorities of the increased grant that you are now prepared to make. What steps has the Scottish Office taken, in conjunction with the local authorities, to discuss schemes of work in order that work might be found for working people? This £10 is very meagre, and it is not for the Secretary for Scotland to say that the responsibility is entirely one for the local authorities. He knows as well as the Under-Secretary knows that the question of the provision of work can be promoted by his Department, and that the local authorities can be coaxed or reasoned into these schemes, just as, if they are left alone, they can refuse to have them. I think we ought to have some indication as to how far the extra grant has gone, if it has gone at all, towards meeting the needs of giving men work.
Further, is the work on schemes already approved being pushed forward? Take the Glasgow and Edinburgh road. I do not know, because of the meagre information before us, whether this £10 covers the work now going on in connection with that new road, and I want to charge the Scottish Office with this, that if the work on that road had been pushed forward properly, and the number of men employed that should have been employed, the Estimate to-day would not have been for £10, but for a considerably larger sum. While I know the Ministry of Transport is to some extent responsible, I also know that the Scottish Office has a duty there, and I want to know if there is anything in this Supplementary Estimate for the work that is now being proceeded with on the Glasgow and Edinburgh road. I also want to know why we have not received to-day some particulars regarding the progress of the schemes already approved, and I feel, as I am sure many of my colleagues from Scotland feel, that on this. Vote we have not received the information that we desire. Does this £10 include any of the work for which the Ministry of Transport is partly responsible? How far is progress being made on the road schemes? What steps has the Secretary for Scotland taken to inform the local authorities and to negotiate with them on this question? Some of the local authorities think that even the 75 per cent. is not sufficient, and I want to know from the Secretary for Scotland if he has any power to increase that sum to a larger grant than 75 per cent. if a special case can he made out. Having listened to the Secretary for Scotland and his colleagues on this side last year criticising my friends, who were then in office, for not doing enough, I would have thought that, with their great desire to push forward schemes to find work, the sum to-day would not have been 210, but would have been nearer £10,000, if not £100,000. Their Supplementary Estimate this year is, I believe, less than the Supplementary Estimate last year, and even though the sum of £223,000 may be a higher sum than last year, I feel that they have not carried out anything like the promises held out to the people last year. I only hope that an explanation regarding the meagreness of the sum will he given by the Secretary for Scotland, as it does not in any way Cover the work that ought to be gone on with in Scotland at the present time.
I am sure the hon. Member is under a misapprehension when he speaks about the Edinburgh-Glasgow road. That is not on this Vote at all, and, therefore, cannot be discussed. With regard to whether this is an adequate sum or not, it is all that is anticipated as necessary to meet certain charges before the end of the financial year. If local authorities are encouraged to come forward, so far as the Scottish Office is concerned, they are only desirous to see them come forward. As soon as these things are submitted, they will be considered, and we will do everything we can to stimulate these works in it be coming year.
The right hon. Gentleman says that he is going to do everything to stimulate the work of the local authorities, and yet the total amount of his stimulation from now to the end of the financial year is £10. A patent medicine could do more stimulation. To provide only £10 between this and the end of the financial year is a shocking business We can take our jokes in Scotland, but this is more than a joke. I know of local authorities now who are getting ready to approach the Secretary for Scotland on this subject, and if this limit of £10 is made, it means that you cannot sanction work to go ahead expeditiously, as I want to see it. What is to hapen if a big scheme is put forward by a local authority to do work at once if only £10 is available up to the end of the financial year?
The hon. Member must be aware that this is an addition.
I know that.
Then it is not a question of dealing with £10 only. It is a token Vote to enable us to finish on the Main Vote, which is not £10, but well over £200,000.
The Secretary for Scotland has really not adequately satisfied me on this matter. I do not want to be an irritant, or a retarder of the work of the Committee, particularly when I was informed at the beginning of these Votes that these Votes were practically the result of the Labour Government policy. This is the good doctrine of continuity of policy that we kept so loyally last year. We are told in an explanation that the Vote is necessitated, not merely in anticipation of work to be approved, but because the portion payable by the Government, as distinct from the local Government, has been raised from 65 to 75 per cent. Some of the 10 per cent. is necessitated not by works that are anticipated, but by works that are in progress. We know the Glasgow-Edinburgh road is one of the 75 per cent. schemes, and yet we are told it is not included in this. We have got no indication of any single scheme from the Secretary for Scotland. He can tell us of no scheme that is in progress or under the consideration of his Department, or of any scheme being considered by any local authority, and yet he asks us to pass this Vote, which, admittedly, is only a token Vote, and, therefore, lays all the greater responsibility on us. If it were a definite Vote for £10,000 or £500,000, we would know the limits of our responsibility, but with a token Vote we are absolutely left in the dark. We are giving him a free hand, without any information whatever, and he tells us that the schemes do not come within his Department. We did not put him up as the man who is to reply on this particular Vote. I see next to him an hon. and gallant Member who is thoroughly conversant with the operations of the Ministry of Transport. Surely he can tell us about the road schemes that are receiving 75 per cent., and necessitating this additional Vote. Otherwise, I am not disposed to let this Vote go without opposition, and I would appeal to the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench on this side who are responsible for directing the policy of those of us on these benches to take upon their shoulders the responsibility of opposing this in the Division Lobby, unless we can get something more in the way of explanation than the very elusive and clever—I admit—answers we have received from the right hon. Gentleman speaking on behalf of the Government.
I. may, perhaps, be allowed to try again. This is purely a technical Vote. The original Vote has been adequate in the main, as far as the demands made upon it are concerned. But, owing to the fact that the amount, of payment has been raised from 65 to 75 per cent., it is essential, as a technical matter, to come to the House and ask for a token Vote in order to cover that question. It is being done to regularise the matter at the present time. I would point out, that while I have not got with me, nor do I carry in my head, the list of the various schemes that have been submitted or are under consideration, I would say that these are all questions that are being dealt with by the Department in the proper course. While this sum may appear to be very small, the greater part of these charges are not paid immediately, and are for schemes which are under consideration at the present time, or may even be actually in operation, and part of the burden falls not upon this Vote, but will be carried forward to the next Vote. Therefore, the General Vote next year will be adequate to meet what they consider the largest portion of the programme.
I am amazed at the attitude adopted by the right hon. Gentleman. It must be five or six months since this policy was adopted of increasing the grant to local authorities from 65 to 75 per cent. The right hon. Gentleman has been in charge of his office now for several months, and in asking the Committee to grant a sum of money, surely he expected questions to be put to him as to what were the subjects for which he wanted the money. Yet he tells us, at the end of all this time, he is not in a position to inform the Committee of a single scheme which is eligible for the additional grant, or of a single application made by a local authority, and the result of its consideration. He cannot expect the Committee to grant the money in these circumstances.
I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to what is really under discussion. It is "Grants in respect of Unemployment Schemes for certain Non-Revenue-Producing Works," and here you have the Secretary for Scotland coming forward to-day and asking for £10. It is all very fine and large to call it a token Vote, but we require something definite to meet a definite problem, because you, Mr. Hope, will remember that you were one of the gentlemen who reproached the Labour party when in office because they were not handling this unemployment question by taking a big view of the matter, and doing something practical.
It is out of order to refer to the antecedents of the Gentleman occupying the Chair, no matter how lurid they may be.
This unemployment is a very serious matter, and the Secre- tary for Scotland is asking for money so that he may be able to deal with the problem. He is asking for £10, which is simply ridiculous. If he were asking for millions, it would be nearer the mark. He has heard us who come from Scotland—he claims to come from there, but I do not know—in season and out of season do everything that is humanly possible, in order to get this House interested in the unemployment question in Scotland. There is our representative, and that is what the Secretary for Scotland stands for ! [ Laughter. ] Fools always laugh! [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] Yes, "a man may smile, and smile, and be a villain." Here is the Secretary for Scotland who is supposed to represent the people of Scotland here, supposed to be here in their interests, to guard their rights to the very best of his ability. Here is an opportunity for this great and powerful Tory Government, of which he is a respected Member, yet they are not embracing this glorious opportunity to ask the House to give enough money to carry on work in Scotland, work that is needed, and that may be clone by men who can do it, and do it second to none in the world. There the right hon. and gallant Gentleman sits, quite unmoved by all the appeals that have been made to him, although in his election pledges he said from the platform—just as did other hon. Gentlemen time and again—that he, and they, represented the working classes as well as we on the Labour Benches. [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear !"] Well, now is the day and now is the hour to put it all into practice. Give us some indication that you really mean what, you say. You are asking for £10 when we really require £10,000,000. The Secretary for Scotland could spend that £10 quite well in saving a poor family from being evicted
in Clydebank. He could spend tens of thousands in employing the unemployed of Scotland, in reclaiming the foreshores of Scotland, by afforestation in Scotland, by—
The hon. Member is entitled to ask the Minister what it is intended to do with the Vote, but he is not entitled to give a programme that he himself would like to see carried out.
I should like to hear what the Secretary for Scotland has to say, but irrespective of Front Bench or Back Bench I am going to stand up for those I represent and shall, if necessary, divide the House. What is £10? What can you do with it? [ Laughter. ] It is all very fine for this House to be laughing, and smiling, and jeering at Davie Kirkwood, while the very best blood in Scotland is running to waste because it is not being employed. What I want the Secretary of Scotland to tell me is whether or not he is going to increase the £l0 to tens of thousands of pounds in order to give these people who are unemployed legitimate employment.
proceeded to put the Question.
On a point of Order. I want to know—maybe I should have put it before?—if you are within your rights, immediately I have finished, in rising up and putting the Question, after I had called upon the Secretary for Scotland to reply to my query?
I have no power to call upon the Secretary for Scotland or any other Member to rise. The only power I have, in case of necessity, is to make a Member resume his seat.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 284: Noes, 119.
Division No. 11.] AYES. [5.55 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Berry, Sir George Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Albery, Irving James Bethell, A. Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Betterton, Henry B. Brown-Lindsay, Major H. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Buckingham, Sir H. Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Burman, J. B. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Burton, Colonel H. W. Apsley, Lord Blades, Sir George Rowland Butler, Sir Geoffrey Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Blundell, F. N. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Atholl, Duchess of Boothby, R. J. G. Campbell, E. T. Atkinson, C. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cautley, Sir Henry S. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Balniel, Lord Briggs, J. Harold Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Brittain, Sir Harry Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Hawke, John Anthony Pease, William Edwin Chapman, Sir S. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Christie, J. A. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Philipson, Mabel Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Pitcher, G. Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Henn, Sir Sydney H Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Cobb, Sir Cyril Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Price, Major C. W. M. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Radford, E. A. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hilton, Cecil Raine, W. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C. Ramsden, E. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Rawson, Alfred Cooper Cooper, A. Duff Holland, Sir Arthur Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Cope, Major William Holt, Capt. H. P. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Couper, J. B. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Courtauld, Major J. S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Rice, Sir Frederick Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hore-Belisha, Leslle Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Crack, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ropner, Major L. Crook, C. W. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hume, Sir G. H. Salmon, Major I. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hurd, Percy A. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert Hurst, Gerald B. Sanderson, Sir Frank Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Savery, S. S. Curzon, Captain Viscount Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shaw. Lt.-Col. A. D. MCI. (Renfrew, W) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Jacob, A. E. Shepperson, E. W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somersot, Yeov11) Jephcott, A. R. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Skelton, A. N. Dawson, Sir Philip Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Dean, Arthur Wellesley Kindersley, Major G. M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Doyle, Sir N. Grattan King, Captain Henry Douglas Smith-Carington, Neville W. Drewe, C. Knox, Sir Alfred Smithers, Waldron Duckworth, John Lamb, J. Q. Spender Clay, Colonel H. Eden, Captain Anthony Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Sprot, Sir Alexander Edmondson, Major A. J. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Elliot, Captain Walter E, Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Strickland, Sir Gerald Ellis, R. G. Loder, J. de V. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Elveden, Viscount Looker, Herbert William Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) England, Colonel A. Lougher, L. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Everard, W. Lindsay Lumley, L. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Fairfax, Captain J. G. MacAndrew, Charles Glen Thomson, Sir W.Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. Of W.) Tinne, J. A. Falls, Sir Charles F. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Fermoy, Lord MacIntyre, Ian Turton, Edmund Russborough Fielden, E. B. McLean, Major A. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Fleming, D. P. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Waddington, R. Ford, P. J. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Walker, Forestier-, L. Foster, Sir Harry S. Macquisten, F. A. Wallace, Captain D. E. Fraser, Captain Ian MacRobert, Alexander M. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Frece, Sir Waiter de Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Ganzoni, Sir John Margesson, Captain D. Wells, S. R. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Gee, Captain R. Mason, Lieut.-Col, Glyn K. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Meller, R. J. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Merriman, F. B. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Grace, John Meyer, Sir Frank Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central) Greene, W. P. Crawford Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Grotrian, H. Brent Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Winby, Colonel L. P. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Gunston, Captain D. W. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wise, Sir Fredric Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Weimer, Viscount Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Womersiey, W. J. Hammersley, S. S. Murchison, C. K. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nelson, Sir Frank Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon) Harland, A. Neville, R. J. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Harney, E. A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Harrison, G. J. C. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Hartington, Marquess of Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wragg, Herbert Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Oakley, T. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Haslam, Henry C. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Colonel Gibbs and Major Hennessy.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hastings, Sir Patrick Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hayday, Arthur Sitch, Charles H. Ammon, Charles George Hayes, John Henry Slesser, Sir Henry H. Attlee, Clement Richard Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, G. H. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Barnes, A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Barr, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Snell, Harry Batey, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Beckett, John (Gateshead) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stamford, T. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kelly, W. T. Stephen, Campbell Broad, F. A. Kennedy, T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Bromfield, William Kenworthy, Lt-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Sutton, J. E. Bromley, J. Kenyon, Barnet Taylor, R. A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lawson, John James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lindley, F. W. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Charleton, H. C. Lowth, T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Clowes, S. Lunn, William Thurtle, E. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J.R.(Aberavon) Tinker, John Joseph Compton, Joseph Mackinder, W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Cove, W. G. MacLaren, Andrew Wallhead, Richard C. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Day, Colonel Harry March, S. Warne, G. H. Dennison, R. Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Dunnico, H. Naylor, T. E. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Oliver, George Harold Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Gibbins, Joseph Palin, John Henry Welsh, J. C. Gillett, George M. Paling, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Whiteley, W. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wignall, James Greenall, T. Ponsonby, Arthur Wilkinson, Ellen C. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Potts, John S. Williams, T (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Riley, Ben Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) Windsor, Walter Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Scrymgeour, E. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scurr, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hardie, George D. Sexton, James Mr. Kirkwood and Mr. Buchanan. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Class III
County Courts
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1025, for the Salaries and Expenses connected with the County Courts, including Bonus to County Court Judges."
6.0 p.m.
I think it will be agreed that this is a Supplementary Estimate to carry out an excellent reform. The County Courts Act, 1924, altered the system under which Registrars received fees and commissions on the amount of litigation in the County Courts, and gave them proper recognition as salaried servants of the State, and I do not think anyone can complain if the money which is now paid to these officials is paid out of State revenues. But there Is one item in this Estimate which, I think, will cause some Members of this House anxiety, and that is the increase in the charge for the conveyance of persons committed to prison by the County Courts. When we remember that the sole reason, or practically the sole reason now, why persons are committed to prison at all by County Courts is because of non-payment of debt or contempt of Court; we ought to watch this increased expenditure with some care. It appears that £1,000 is now to be spent in one year for the sole purpose of conveying to prison persons who are unable to pay their debts; that is what it comes to. There is an extraordinary variety of procedure among County Court Judges in different areas. In some areas a County Court Judge practically sends nobody to prison for debt. 'Other County Court Judges send people there in contempt in very large numbers, and although a distinction is nominally made between the treatment of these unfortunate persons and criminals, yet in practice it amounts to very much the same thing. There is a great diversity of opinion as to what amounts to evidence of means. Now, apparently, the £800 which was the original amount of the Estimate will not be sufficient, and I should like to ask if we can be told why a larger sum is necessary for the purpose of conveying these persons to prison.
We live in times of extraordinary stress and difficulty, when thousands and thousands of poor people are unable, through no fault of their own, to pay for necessities. We know how nominal is the fiction that these poor persons have means to pay and do not pay, and I suggest that the Committee should watch very jealously how money is spent in conveying to prison these unfortunate persons who, at most, have committed no more serious crime than lands many other and more prosperous people into the Bankruptcy Court without having to go to prison at all. This is a matter which concerns almost entirely the poorest part of the population. I propose to raise this matter on many other occasions until the whole thing has been thoroughly considered, because I am of opinion that we are gradually reviving in this country the vicious system of imprisoning people for non-payment of debt. I should have thought persons of this type might be allowed to go to prison of their own motion, and not be conveyed there in a public conveyance, because they are not criminals in the ordinary sense of the word. I understand that in America even criminals are in many cases given the option as to when they will report for prison. We have not got to that humanitarian point here, but surely we do not wish to send these people, who are mete debtors, to prison in a public conveyance. I should like to know why there has been this increased expenditure.
I think I can reassure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the figures he has referred to with so much anxiety for the lot of the poor debtor are arrived at on the exact basis of the estimate which was put forward by the Government of which he was a member and which he advised as one of its officers. The figure in the first column in the Supplementary Estimate is arrived at on the basis of 12 months. The sums which were brought into account for County Court Administration have always been brought into account quarterly in arrear. When the new system came into force it was necessary, in order to get the County Court year on all fours with our financial year, to have a year of 15 months instead of 12, and it is a simple proportion sum to arrive at the total amount we must provide for the 15 months. We based it on the admirable advice which was before us owing to the efforts of the hon. and learned member in the late Government to look after the interests of these poor debtors. We knew he would take a merciful view as to the necessity of sending them to prison. We took the £800, and, by a simple rule-of-three sum, we have taken an extra £200 to enable the provision which had been made for the year to carry on for 15 months.
I wish to refer to a question I have repeatedly called attention to in this House with regard to the medical assessors to sit to help County Court Judges. I feel that the present practice of allowing medical practitioners to sit as assessors who are taking private work is bringing the Law Courts into contempt. I submit that any medical practitioner who takes private work from either an employer or an employé should be debarred in law from sitting or acting as a medical referee. At the present time an eminent doctor who is appointed medical referee for a certain district can take private work for an insurance company, or a group of collieries, or for an organisation of the men.
On a point of Order. Perhaps the hon. Member is not aware that payment of these officers is not borne on this Vote at all, but on the Home Office Vote, and therefore his point does not arise here.
I understood the money was part of the County Court fees. Are we quite certain that the cost of the assessors who sit with County Court Judges is borne by the Home Office? I know that the cost of a medical referee, acting in his capacity as a medical referee, and apart from the Court, is borne by the Home Office, but I am now referring to medical referees called to sit in the County Court beside the County Court Judge. I would like that point cleared up. Can my hon. Friend assure me that it is as he says?
I am assured that that is the case.
It strikes me as peculiar that we should be including bonuses to County Court Judges. I find that the sum provided as bonuses to County Court Judges last year was £5,491. How many Judges did that sum cover? I heard at Question time to-day questions about the Rochdale unemployed getting benefit to which they were not entitled. I would like to see the faces of hon. Members opposite if we on this side propose to grant £5,491 to certain unemployed persons. I am going to insist upon knowing how many Judges this amount covers and over what period it extends. It is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman, no doubt with a good deal of ability and the saving grace of humour, to say that this was all proposed by a Labour Government. It cuts no ice with me what these chaps did, and whether it comes from that side or this side, if it is wrong, my voice will always he raised in protest against it. I was not a member of the last, Government and I am never likely to be a member of any Government—
I do not see on which sub-head of this Vote the, question of County Court Judges arises.
This is an item of £5,491 for bonus, and I want to know what services have been rendered for it. If this happened to be expenditure upon the unemployed you would demand everything in great detail, and I want to know all about this item. Then comes an item for travelling and subsistence for 55 Judges. The item in this respect is £4,282, and what does this mean? The revised estimate for travelling and subsistence was £21,857, which shows an increase of £5,857. Therefore you are asking for over £5,000 more for travelling and subsistence for County Court Judges who have already received bonus amounting to £5,491 in order that they should be well fed and well kept. This kind of treatment seems to be most inequitable. We hear a good deal about the treatment of poor people, but I hope members of the Government will not come here asking for bonus like this and trying to slip it through in this way. I want to know what this bonus actually covers, how many Judges are affected, and what is the reason for this increased cost of travelling. I want to know what actual increases, if any, have been given to the Judges in addition to the bonus.
The hon. Member asked a good many questions, and perhaps I may answer some of them at once. He has asked me what increase in salaries has been given to the Judges. May I inform him that this is the only branch of State activity which has not had any increased remuneration since the War. The pay of the Judges does not come on this Vote, but it is borne on the Consolidated Fund. The bonuses paid are on the Civil Service scale, and fluctuate with every five points moved in the index figure of the cost of living. The bonus is carried on this Vote in proportion to the move in the index figure of the cost of living. The hon. Member has asked me about the increase in the cost of travelling and subsistence. There are 54 County Court Judges, but the amounts referred to apply to the Registrars and High Bailiffs, and they have to cover large areas. The explanation of the increased figures in the case of headings C to J is that a period of 15 months is now being dealt with as against 12 months covered by the original Estimate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr Buchanan) complained about the high cost of travelling expenses for the Judges, but apparently he did riot notice on page 4 the item dealing with the increased cost for certain juniors about the Courts. There is an item for clerk-typists, who are paid from 20s. to 34s. per week. Is that so? There are 60 of these clerk-typists and the amount put clown is £1,560, and this works out at about 26s. per week.
That is dealing with six months.
Then it amounts to about £1 a week. I think that is very curious and requires some explanation. Then there is an item for whole-time bailiffs in established Courts. They are paid from 28s. up to Ms. per week. I presume they are men and they start at 28s. per week. May I ask the hon. Member for Gorbals to support me in probing this matter, and does he consider that is sufficient for an established wage for bailiffs? I want to get his help in this matter. The point certainly requires some explanation, and this House should not approve of so disgracefully low a salary to these helpless people.
I see there is an item of 2100 for prosecutions for assaults on bailiffs. I think that is a reason why no wages should be paid to them at all. What does this £100 for assaulting bailiffs cover? I hope we shall be told exactly how this £100 comes in.
There another item want some information about. The original Estimate contains an item of £72,600 for bonus. I want to know to whom this bonus is being paid and what class of clerk is being dealt with. Is the money going to the clerks or to some other section of this particular Department? The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has drawn attention to the salaries being paid to women. I see that some of the men clerks are being paid from £52 to £75 a year, and the amount all together is £39,602, which is the total amount being paid to men and women clerks. Is that the salary they are receiving at the present time, and, if so, what is the age of those receiving £1 a week from a generous Government? What class of clerk is it that is receiving £1 per week? I am sure the Under-Secretary will be prepared to defend the class of clerk engaged in his Department. I am quite certain that everyone here will assist him in defending them What I want to know is why male clerks employed in a Government Office are receiving such sweated wages, as appear upon this Vote. While I object to the Judges getting any bonus—
They are under-paid.
In comparison with these male clerks they are not under-paid, although they may be in comparison with the High Court Judges. If it is a question of comparison, let us compare them with those who are higher paid than they are. I hope the right hon. Gentleman is in a position to give us this information, and to assure us that he, at any rate, is taking strong measures to see that, whatever sweating may have prevailed in this Department in the past, as seems to be shown by the figures in the Vote, the case of the lower-paid section of the employés will receive attention, and that these conditions of sweating among the lower-paid element will be removed.
I can assure the hon. Member that the pay of these men, and especially of those in the lower grades, will be materially improved by establishing them, as they have now been established as civil servants, instead of leaving them to be paid by private arrangements under the Registrars. That was one of the great objects of the legislation which the last Parliament passed. The salaries which have been mentioned by various hon. Members are the lowest salaries in the scale, and the increments in all cases are shown in brackets. I think that is quite clear.
Does that mean that clerk-typists are paid £1 a week?
These girls, when they come into the Department, start at 21 a week, but they go up to 34s., and in all these eases bonus is paid. The burden of salaries will materially increase year by year. I may say that all these salaries have been agreed with the Association of County Court Officers. I think it would be very undesirable if we were to try to upset details in the salary scale which have been considered as a whole by the representatives of these officers.
Is it the case that some of these clerk-typists who are paid £1 a week are juveniles, some of them not 21 years of age?
I should think that that is so.
But, surely, bailiffs are fully-grown men. They have to throw people out of Court, do they not? Apparently, the younger ones, who, I suppose, are able-bodied young men of 21 or so, start at 28s. a week, which seems to me to be an extraordinarily low figure. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman bears me out in that, and I hope he will not rest at the Treasury until it is put right.
It appears that in the case of one section of these girl clerk-typists the salary amounts to £130 as the limit, and there is a second section where the limit is £150. Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the trade union rate, paid in trade union offices—which are less able to afford such a salary than this Government—the trade union rate asked by the National Union of Clerks is £4 5s. a week? That rate is paid in trade union offices and in many commercial offices.
The figure here would exceed that weekly payment when you take into account the bonus. This is a basic salary.
That is my point. I wanted to know whether you were paying what is considered to be a trade union rate.
What is the bonus that is now received by these clerk-typists1 Am I right in saying that the bonus is about 25s.?
It is 16s. on a salary of £1.
That is to say,:36s. a week. I do not think that any commercial house in the country would pay a typist at that rate. You cannot get them in London, [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh !"] Then I think it is a very low wage, and I think the Government really ought to set an example in this matter. I do hope most seriously that the right hon. Gentleman, now that we have drawn his attention to the matter, will apply his great gifts and abilities to remedying it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class V
Colonial Services
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for sundry Colonial Services, including Expenditure ill connection with Ex-Service Men in the Irish Free State and certain Grants-in-Aid."
I ought to say one word on the new services included in this Vote under Subheads A7 and A8. They are due to the fact that on the 28th August there was a very serious hurricane, the most serious that has occurred for many years, in the Leeward Islands. A great many people were killed, many were rendered homeless, and a great deal of damage was caused to crops and property. The estimated damage was about £250,000. The other West Indian Colonies spontaneously assisted their stricken sister by voting contributions, and private subscriptions were also col- lected, and the Lord Mayor of London opened a Relief Fund. It was felt that it would be deplorable if H.M. Government were behindhand in offering some assistance on this occasion, particularly in view of the generous help given front official and private sources in the other Colonies, and it has been recommended that this Grant-in-Aid to help to make good the damage should be asked for as a new service. Dominica escaped the hurricane, but was the victim of an almost worse infliction a month or two later. On the 5th and 6th October there was a terrific storm of rain, which caused a landslide and blocked the river four miles above the capital. The dam which was then formed burst in the middle of the night, and a good many people were killed and a great deal of damage to property in the town, particularly in the poorer parts, resulted from this cataclysm. Dominica, I regret to say, is in rather a bad way financially, and, in view of this exceptional calamity, we are asking for a special Grant-in-Aid of £5,000.
I am not objecting to this Vote in any way, and I fully recognise that it is a token Vote. But at the bottom of page 25, in regard to items A 7 and A 8, I notice that it states that
"The expenditure out of this Grant-in-Aid will not be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General."
I think it is rather a pity that the Comptroller and Auditor-General should not have these figures put before him. I notice also that further on in the same paragraph it is stated that no surrender will be made at the close of the financial year of the unexpended balance. Surely it is wrong that this should be carried forward. I have always understood that the whole object of Government accounts was that these figures should not be carried forward if there was anything left over. With regard to the reconstruction, I should like to ask whether this reconstruction of devastated areas is to be carried out by contract or by the Government Department?
It would really be quite impracticable if this matter of audit were not dealt with by the Colonial Audit Department, and if an attempt were made to audit the expenditure in this country. The islands most affected are the Virgin Islands, Montserrat, Nevis, and St. Christopher, and to account to the Comptroller and Auditor-General here as to how this free gift from the Imperial Government, towards making grants for relieving distress and making good devastation in these islands, was expended, would not be practicable. It is, therefore, left to the Colonial Audit Department, which sends out its officers, under the Colonial Office, to see that the money is properly expended on the spot, and that is done by the Colonial Audit Department, and not by the Comptroller and Auditor-General here. As regards surrender, we have not yet got actual detailed plans as to when this sum of money will be paid. Perhaps I may give one or two examples of the destruction that has occurred. I see that the Government House at Tortola, in the Virgin Islands, was completely wrecked, and its iron roofing was found in the sea several hundred yards away. The Wesleyan Church, the largest building in Tortola, was reduced to a heap of ruins level with the ground. The estimated speed of the wind was 135 miles an hour. I think it is impossible, in our present state of knowledge, to re-vote this grant for this relief next year. The idea is to make a clean job with a free gift by the imperial Government to these unfortunate islands which have suffered these disasters.
Question put, and agreed to.
Middle Eastern Services
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for sundry Middle Eastern Services under His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including certain Non-effective Services and Greats-in-Aid."
I should like, on this Vote, to raise a matter in connection with the administration of Trans-Jordania and the upkeep of the Arab legion. I am sorry that the tinder-Secretary of State for India is not here at the moment, because it is very much his subject. Certainly it is not mine, but nevertheless I want to raise one or two points. Since this Estimate was made, very dramatic events have occurred in the Arabian Peninsula, and the militant prohibitionists known as the Wahabi have secured several successes against the forces of the King of the Hedjaz or his son—the Hashimite forces, as I think it is correct to term them. An attack was made on Trans-Jordania, and was beaten off with the aid of the Air Force, but this was only a feint, and Ibn Saud's forces attacked Mecca. This must have increased the prestige of the Wahabi very considerably.
I should like some information from the Minister in charge as to what the policy of His Majesty's Government is, because it is quite obvious that this small sum of money, if we are going to pursue the policy of propping up the various scions of the Royal House of the Hedjaz, will not be enough. That is the subject I have opened up in a few words. The hon. Gentleman has been in the East and has studied the matter. I hope we shall get some very interesting information from him, not on the past,' but on the future. I want prophecy, because if we are committed in this way to subsidising these Arab legions and these potentates in Arabia, in view of the fact that their enemies are immensely powerful—these are the people who wish to enforce prohibition and non-smoking and strict religious observance, in all of which they have my sympathy, on the surrounding and more effete tribes whom unfortunately we are supporting—I am afraid we have backed the wrong horse, as recent events in Mecca and that part of Arabia have shown. In the old Coalition days we poured out money literally by the sackful in these regions to try to prop up the various potentates whom we were subsidising. We used to pay a subsidy to Ibn Saud himself. He bought rifles from the French people, and he has now used them with great effect and is gradually becoming by far the most powerful force in the peninsula. I think the hon. Gentleman will agree with me there. What is the use of voting this ridiculously small sum towards the administration of the Arab legions? It is obvious that it only commits us, probably seriously, and cannot possibly do any good towards strengthening the force of our Allies, if they are any longer our Allies. I do not know. I ask for information. We have an acknowledged expert on Arab affairs in charge of the Vote, and I ask for enlightenment on the matter.
It is only necessary to take a Supplementary Esti- mate for this expenditure, because technically it represents a "new service" in the Middle East. As a matter of fact, the saving on the defence subhead in connection with the Palestine and Trans-Jordania, Vote will amount this year to a considerably larger sum than the amount now asked for. But it is necessary to take this token because we are placing the total sum hitherto granted in connection with the Middle East service as a whole on this new basis. There will, as a matter of fact, I am confident, be a net saving over the Estimate already granted at the end of this financial year. The object of this new service, £17,500, is to make up the difference between the local budget of Trans-Jordania and the total cost of certain services. In the past, we have more or less made up the total deficit and granted, as it were, a subsidy to Trans-Jordania. We have now been able to straighten matters out so that Trans-Jordania, has a definite revenue of its own, collected locally, and a share of customs duties collected in Palestine. But that local revenue is not sufficient, in addition to paying for the local Arab administration, to pay for the particular services which we want in our own interest, and this sum is required in the first place for the maintenance of the chief British representative and his staff and for our share of contribution towards the Arab legion, which is commanded by a British officer.
In Trans-Jordania there is an important air station on the route across to Iraq, and it is essential that for that reason only there should be some local force under the command of a British officer for the protection of that air station. It is also essential, as we have duties still as mandatories in connection with Trans-Jordania, though they have been considerably modified, to have a British resident at the Court of the Emir in Trans-Jordania. Further, we are internationally responsible on the French frontier. Trans-Jordania 'has a frontier not only with Palestine, which is under direct British administration, but also with the French mandated territory of Syria, and therefore it is essential that we should keep someone or other who can be responsible to us for the exercise of our international obligations. This sum of £17,500 is sufficient to defray that.
As to the situation in Trans-Jordania, we have no reason to believe there is any immediate threat to it in any way from the Wahabis, and I do not think it would be in order if I were to deal with matters in the Arabian Peninsula outside Trans-Jordania, because this is a Vote purely for Trans-Jordania. At any rate, we are satisfied that with the Air Force we can maintain there, in the present conditions that obtain in Trans-Jordania and with the considerable distance from there of any hostile forces at present, so far from there being any increased expenditure, there will be a net saving under the defence sub-head, and I am sure we have now got out of what, I admit, in the old days was the unsatisfactory system of not knowing how much we should require to expend on the carrying out of our obligations in Trans-Jordania. We have now got it on a fixed basis.
I find myself very largely in accord with the hon. Gentleman, and I think the explanation he has given is very satisfactory, but I should like information on one other small point. We are contributing a sum for the salary and expenses of a British representative at the Court of the Emir Abdulla. Under the last Government, when I suppose this money was budgeted for, I raised the question whether we should have an emissary at the Court of Ibn Saud in view of recent events in that part of the country, and I think it would be well worth our while considering. I do not want the hon. Gentleman to make any pronouncement on the matter, but I renew the suggestion I made to the late Prime Minister that it would be good policy on our part to send a representative to the Court of Ibn Saud. We had one before, but he was withdrawn. I think it would pay us.
Question put, and agreed to.
Treasury Chest Fund
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £657, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to make good the Net Loss on Transactions connected with the raising of Money for the various Treasury Chests Abroad in the year 1923–24."
I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will forgive me raising this point, but I notice at the bottom of Page 20 a paragraph that opens:
"A Vote was not required in 1923–4 as the transactions of 1922–3 resulted in a net gain of £3,740 8s. 2d."
I congratulate him on that gain, but I do not see any necessity now-a-days to take any risk or gamble on the Exchange. Since the War what is called forward exchange has been inaugurated whereby a person can buy exchange forward, which costs a little money and a little extra percent., but it enables you to be certain of your exchange in the particular country in which you require your money. I would ask the Financial Secretary if this is carried out; by the Treasury and also what the loss of £657 represents.
Could the hon. Gentleman inform some of us who are new in the House exactly what the estimate is for and whether we are to understand that this sum of £657 has actually been lost in regard to exchange transactions and whether this will be the whole sum which will be required or whether he thinks any suggestion such as that made by the last speaker will be carried out, and will there be any further loss in the future.
As regards the chest, I want to know something about the size of it, and whether, when the sums vary from small to large, Sandow developers are used to expand it to hold the sums necessary for what is called the Treasury Fund. I should also like to know whether these chests are bound in iron, copper, or steel and whether they could be carried away by a "cat" burglar. A Scotsman is always interested to know, when there is money, that it is secure. According to the English point of view, it does not matter. The Englishman is a permanent joke in Scotland. What I should like, to know about the chest is this: When we take the various demands on the so-called Treasury chests abroad, are we guided by what demands are made from those parts that ask for money, or do we simply make these gifts?
7.0 P.M.
I remember that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) raised this question on the Public Accounts Committee last year. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett), who was also a member of the Committee, probably knows a good deal more about the fund than he has told us, but he has suggested that I should give a brief explanation of it, and I gladly do so, because perhaps hon. Members do not quite realise what it means. The object of the fund is to concentrate all the exchange transactions in one account. We have various payments to make abroad to troops, the Air Force, and the Navy, and we do not want to have gains or losses under a lot of different sub-heads, and therefore the Treasury has this fund. The size of the chest is £700,000. It was fixed in 1894, and it is fed year by year. The Vote we are asking to-day is to make good the loss to the end of last March. It is only now that the accounts have come in. In other recent years there has been a big profit. Really these profits and losses are largely paper. The object of the Fund is to provide the various Government Departments with money in the local currencies as and when they require it. The losses are occasioned by the money being credited at the local rates. It varies in different parts of the world. It is generally fixed at the previous average monthly rate. When the money is raised there may be a gain or a loss. As a matter of fact, last year there were total losses of £19,192 odd and total gains of £18,535, and the small sum the Committee is asked to vote is the balance between the two. On the One side expenses of remittance and losses on exchange are charged, and on the other side appear bank interest and gains on exchange.
The hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) suggests that to buy exchange as and when we require it is speculation, and that if we bought forward we should be following a sounder course, and he bases it on the analogy of commercial transactions. I think, if I may say so, there is a very great distinction. The Government commitments do not vary at all as a result of variations in the exchange. We have got to pay in any case. The contract of a business firm must vary in direct relation to the exchange, and, if a business firm engages to carry out a transaction three months hence, they must be sure of the exact proportion of the total transaction which will be represented by the exchange which they take into account. That is no doubt why they buy forward exchange. We have on the other hand to pay the troops from day to day, and it would only pay to buy forward if, generally speaking, the exchanges were going against you. Of course that is not the case, and I do not think in this matter the commercial precedent really applies. The only other point which I want to say in explanation of the account is that it is in a sense a Suspense Account. No final expenditure is charged upon the Fund whatever. All expenditure out of the Fund is refunded by the Votes of the various Services.
Question put, and agreed to.
Sudan, Grant-In-Aid
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for a Grant-in-Aid to the Sudan Government."
I think I ought to explain, with regard to this Vote, that it is really not a Vote of money by this Committee at all. We are not asking for any money to come out of the pockets of the taxpayer. Really, it is no more, as far as this Committee is concerned, than a book-keeping transaction. The Committee will remember that immediately after the murder of the late Sirdar in Egypt certain demands by way of reparation for that outrage, the culminating point of a long series of hostile intrigue against the British Government in Egypt, were made. Among those demands was the payment of a sum of £500,000. That £500,000 was promptly paid by the Egyptian Government, and at the same time a declaration was published in Egypt in these words:
"His Majesty's Government have decided that a sum of £500,000 to be paid by Egypt shall, subject to the provision of compensation for the victims, he applied as they may hereafter direct, to benevolent objects in the Sudan for which country Sir Lee Stack laid down his life."
Accordingly, certain payments were made, and the Committee will see that a sum of £49,748 has been advanced by the Civil Contingencies Fund, and to that extent repayment will have to be made out of this sum of £500,000. It comes before this Committee as a token Vote of in order that the Committee may have an opportunity of considering it. I should tell the Committee that the following payments were made by way of compensation to those who suffered from the outrage. A sum of £40,000 was granted to the widow of the murdered Sirdar. To Captain Campbell, Sir Lee Stack's aide-de-camp, who was injured at the same time that the Sirdar was murdered, £3,000 Egyptian; to Mr. March, the chauffeur of Sir Lee Stack, who also received injuries and damage to future prospects, the sum of 15,000 Egyptian; and there was also a sum of £535 representing doctors' fees and hospital accounts for the treatment of Sir Lee Stack and his aide-de-camp and his chauffeur which have been paid out of the indemnity. The rest of the £,500,000 remains at the disposal of the Government, to be used from time to time, in accordance with the announcement which I have just read,
"for benevolent objects in the Sudan for which country Sir Lee Stack laid down his life."
This sum, which now appears in the Supplementary Estimates, and which I ask the Committee to accept in that form, is part of the policy which has already been discussed at some length in this House, and which, I think I may say, has obviously had the approval of public opinion, not only in this country, but on the Continent and in Egypt itself.
Might I just put two questions First of all, could the Government give us any information as to what objects are likely to be benefited under this fund, or have they not yet made up their mind? Secondly, when they have made up their mind will they announce their intentions to the House before making the grants, or will they make their grants and announce them afterwards? I think the Government will feel that if they have the approval of the House for the distribution of this money they will strengthen themselves very much, not only in the country, but in Europe.
The Government have not come to any decision as to the exact appropriation of this money. Might I saw that but for the form in which the money was demanded from the Egyptian Government, and our valuable, but rather technical, rules of finance, this matter never would have come in the form of a Vote before this Committee. The money having been demanded by His Majesty's Government, and paid to His Majesty's Government, becomes, of course, a receipt of the British Exchequer, and can only be voted out of the Exchequer again by the action of this House. It is therefore rather a technical intervention of the House, but I will certainly inform the House what, after consultation with Lord Allenby, are the purposes to which we propose that this money should be appropriated. If the money had been paid directly to the Sudan Government, this Vote would have been unnecessary. The Vote only arises because the money was paid to the British Government and not, in the first instance, to the Sudan. I can well understand the interest of the right hon. Gentleman and the House in seeing that the money is properly devoted to purposes to which His Majesty's Government have directed that it shall be applied, and I shall be very glad to give the House information on the subject.
I am sure the Committee will expect further information upon the point which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Mr. A. Chamberlain) has just discussed. What, may we ask, is in mind when he talks about "benevolent objects in the Sudan?" In the second paragraph the statement is made that the expenditure out of the grants will not be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. That seems to me to be a sinister thing. Why should not the Auditor-General receive full details, and get full accounts, of the spending of this money as he gets of the spending of any other sum of public money? Why should this be excepted? If the benevolent objects for which this money is to be spent in the Sudan are such that they will receive the whole-hearted approval of this House and of this country, for the life of me I cannot see why there should be any objection to giving—
I am afraid that I did not make clear the points which was making and which were understood by the Leader of the Opposition, who is as familiar perhaps with our financial system as I am myself. It is proposed that this money should be in the hands of the Government of the Sudan. Had it not been that it was demanded in the first instance as a payment to be made to His Majesty's Government, and by them to be transferred to the Sudan—had it been made direct to the Sudan Government—it would never have come before us at all. Having been received by His Majesty's Government, we cannot transfer it to the Sudan Government without a Vote of the House of Commons, and it is for that reason that we come to the House of Commons. The sum will be at the disposal of the Sudan and administered by them for benevolent objects fixed in advance by His Majesty's Government, and as to which, when they are decided, I have said I will make a statement to the House.
That carries us certainly a considerable stage further, but may I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that there are paragraphs here in this explanation that are confusing. It is stated here in the succeeding paragraph to the one that we are discussing that any sums remaining unexpended at the close of the year will not be liable to surrender. I take it that that is a further indication that this House is to lose all control over the purposes for which this money is to be spent. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he will announce, perhaps in a broad way, the objects upon which the money is to be spent. May we have from him, now, an assurance that this money will not be spent in reimbursing the Sudan Government in any way, and will not enable them to reduce their taxation in any way to meet charges which they would otherwise be compelled to meet if they had not in the future to meet charges for the Army, which have previously been borne by the Egyptian State revenues?
That is hardly a benevolent object.
The hon. Member and I agree that that would not be a benevolent object, but I have seen curious things in some of these Sudan finances, and I should not be at all surprised if there were gentlemen who took an opposite point of view and who would regard the relief of the Sudan Government from its Army expenditure as distinctly a benevolent object. It is true that the Sudan Government will in the near future have greater difficulty in balancing its Budgets than it has had in the past, un- less it is able to attract fresh revenue. In the past, the Army expenses in the Sudan have been met from the Egyptian Exchequer. Those expenses will henceforth require to be met from the Sudan Exchequer, and we ought to have an assurance from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that the benevolent objects upon which this money will be expended will not be such as to relieve, directly or indirectly, the Sudan Government of its legitimate expenditure in the defence of that country.
Would the right hon. Gentleman suggest that one of the benevolent objects upon which this money could be spent, with advantage to the native population and with advantage to the credit of this country, would be to reduce the enormous Sugar Tax which we levied upon the native population of the Sudan, or would he suggest that the Date Tax should be reduced, the tax upon the date tree and the date palms which the natives require, or would he suggest to the Sudan Government a reduction in the but tax, the house tax, which the Sudanese natives are compelled to pay? Failing these things, would he suggest that a benevolent purpose on which part of this money might be spent would be in putting clown the illicit slave traffic which still, in some measure, obtains in the southern portions of the Sudan, towards the Abyssinian border? The Committee would be well advised to ask from the right hon. Gentleman fuller particulars as to the destination of this money then he has yet been able to give.
I wish to add a few words in support of what has been said by the hon. Member for Dundee, (sir. Johnston). The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has explained, with a good deal of unction, that this matter is only coming before us on technical grounds. It is a very satisfactory thing that there are technical grounds which allow us to say something in connection with this matter. Although we have got some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he will intimate to the House the benevolent purposes that are to be served by this money in the Sudan, I do not think that is good enough. When this has been put down as a Supplementary Estimate, although it is to satisfy certain technicalities, the Foreign Secretary should have been good enough to indicate something of what is in his mind and the mind of the Sudan Government in this connection. The benevolent objects in the Sudan will not be very satisfactory, I am afraid. This money has been extorted or is to be extorted from the poor people in Egypt, to be spent on benevolent purposes in the Sudan. It is not benevolence that will meet with any measure of approval from people who take a real humanitarian view.
The Foreign Secretary might take into consideration the application of this money to the poor people in Egypt, as well as the poor people in the Sudan. In this House, before we give even our technical approval to this Vote, we should have a much more definite statement from the right hon. Gentleman. If the benevolent objects are anything like the benevolence which he showed in his dealings with the Egyptian Government, there are some of us on these benches who will be up against what he proposes. Consequently, it is necessary that we should have a much more definite statement from him before we give this matter our approval.
I should like one matter cleared up. The Under-Secretary referred to the £500,000 as an indemnity, but I find that it is referred to in the Note as a fine. It is ridiculous to call a thing an indemnity, out of which only £40,000 go to the widow, £5,000 to the chauffeur and £3,000 to the Secretary. It is not an indemnity. If it is a fine, and if that is really what the right hon. Gentleman meant by using the word "indemnity," he ought to make it clear by what jurisdiction he acts. A fine, I take it, is something in the nature of a punishment, and the punishment, I take it, follows upon a trial, or after investigation. The obtaining of this large sum of money would be, constitutionally, chest money, if it was, in effect, an indemnity, but we find that four-fifths of it has been taken, not admittedly upon the ground that it is an indemnity at all, but upon some other ground for which, as far as I know, there is no constitutional justification. There may be, and I may be wrong, at any rate, before we allow it to go abroad that we extract in bad temper, justifiable had temper, a large sum of money from a community, we ought to be able to show legal chapter and verse justifying what we have done. It may be an ambiguity in the printed Note which says:
"The amount…shall be applied, as the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs may direct, to benevolent objects in the Sudan. The grant will be placed on deposit with the Foreign Office."
I assume, then, that it is to be placed on deposit at the Foreign Office.
"Issues from the deposit account will be made from time to time as required for approved schemes."
What are the schemes to be brought forward? Who is to approve them? Apparently they are never to be brought before the House, because the last sentence of the paragraph says:
"The expenditure out of the grant will not be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General !."
That is a point that ought to be cleared up. I do not ask these questions in any aggressive spirit. They are, however, matters which require attention.
Perhaps it will facilitate matters if I make an offer at this point. May I deal briefly with one or two matters that have been raised? This money was demanded as a fine, to be paid by the Egyptian Government to His Majesty's Government as one of the conditions which we imposed upon or require of the Egyptian Government, in satisfaction for the murder of Sir Lee Stack, and the course of events and the action which led up to that murder. It is not an indemnity in the sense that the whole of it is to be paid in compensation to the victims of that outrage.
Then it cannot be an indemnity.
I will not dispute about words. It can be regarded in part as an indemnity to those individuals and in part as satisfaction to His Majesty's Government for the injury which was done to them by the murder of their representative in the Sudan, the Sirdar. In that sense, it can be quite correctly described as an indemnity as well as a fine. In arty case, when we know what it is, the particular words by which we describe it become of much less consequence.
As regards the views expressed by the hon. Member for Dundee, may I say that whatever the Chancellor of the Exche- quer may say, or whatever the Income Tax payer may say, I do not regard the remission of taxation as a work of benevolence in the sense contemplated by our public announcement, or by this Vote. I have no conception, and I have never had any conception, of allowing this money to be used in relief of military expenditure in the Sudan. I do not want to enter into the matter now, but it must not be supposed that I accept the premises upon which the hon. Member's argument proceeded. I do not. Be they true or be they false, I should regard it as a gross breach of the declaration made by His Majesty's Government before the world, that we would apply this money for benevolent purposes in the Sudan, if we interpreted those benevolent purposes to be the creation of a Sudanese defence force, or payment of it for the relief of taxation in the Sudan. I do not want to produce any precise plan until I know better hoar the money can be best applied. I have in my mind such objects as we ourselves regard as benevolent. They might be of an educational character, they might have relation to the providing of greater facilities, much-needed facilities, for the treat-merit of disease. That is the kind of thing that I have in mind. I am quite ready to offer, and I hope the offer will be accepted, that before I take a definite decision I will consult with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, if he will allow me to do so, and with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Opposition, if he is sufficiently clearly identified for a letter to be addressed to him. I hope that is such an offer as w ill relieve the minds of hon. Members of any suspicion of my proposing to use this money improperly, or that it will be applied otherwise than the general sense of the House may desire.
May I point out that even a wise use of this money is not going to satisfy the constitutional point involved in the whole issue. We were informed at the beginning that a cheque was demanded and promptly paid. The promptness of the payment does not at all prove either the justification for the demand or the willingness with which the payment was made. I have in mind two cheques amounting to a total of £300,000 which were also promptly paid by an eminent gentleman, and I think that the British Government have applied exactly the same tactics, and the promptness with which the £500,000 was paid was due to the same fear under pressure of intimidation and blackmail. The Secretary of State informed us that the matter incidentally comes before the House because the British Government, rather than the Sudanese Government, happened to collect this cheque. The right hon. Gentleman knows that if the Sudanese Government had put forward any such preposterous claim upon the Egyptian Government there would have been no chance of the Egyptian Government being blackmailed, and that the Sudanese Government never was entitled to this cheque.
The right hon. Gentleman seems to speak as if it were some amount due to the Sudanese Government, and that the British Government were merely collecting it in a spirit of benevolence. That is not so. The British Government are now using the name of the Sudanese Government just as a matter of convenience. The cheque was extorted from the Egyptian Government in a manner which is discreditable to the whole history of international relationships between two Governments at any time, and it was because of the mailed fist of Britain that this cheque was forthcoming. Then we have got some account of it. We have got a play upon the words "fine" and "indemnity." The Government themselves have used the word "fine," and as my hon. Friend has shown the iniquity of it that the plaintiff goes and imposes a fine upon the defendant and collects it without any trial. The justice at the back of it were your gunboats and your bluejackets. Then they say it was not a fine, it was an indemnity. The British Government had to pay after all what appeared to them to be justifiable sums to the extent of £50,000 and not £500,000, and the Egyptian Government might be looked to to indemnify the British Government for this £50,000. But the margin of safety for the British Government is not in proportion to a sense of justice, but in proportion to the superiority of their brute force over a helpless nation. And they have demanded 10 times the money which they paid, and now there is talk of benevolent purposes.
Whether the right hon. Gentleman consults the Leader of the Opposition parties or not would not again make any difference. He seems to think that there is a Sudanese Government. What is the Sudanese Government but a military tyranny of a foreign Power imposed upon the innocent people of the Sudan? Who are the Sudanese Government? How many Sudanese have created the Sudanese Government? When the Germans entered Belgium and they created there the new Belgian Government every man in this country said that it was not a Belgian Government, but that it was a German tyranny. In the Sudan to-day the Briton is a robber who is sticking there by force of arms. The Sudanese Government is a military officer paid by the British Government, and kept there to tyrannise over the people of the Sudan. I say in the name of the Communist party—[ Laughter ]—which makes you laugh in the House and makes you dread in your homes, in the name of the Communist party which makes you jeer here and makes your Brigadier-Generals go to Trafalgar Square and enlist, thousands of young men as Fascisti to fight them, that this House is going to be now a party for the first time to this blackmail we have applied to France to deliver up Captain Arthur, and at the same time we are trying to justify to-day in the name of this House the misappropriated cheque of the Egyptian Government.
Are we to understand that this nation is not even entitled to recover its common sense and sense of justice a little later on when the angry mood has passed away? Are we to understand that the sense of justice of the British Foreign Office, the British Prime Minister, the British House of Commons and the British nation on this particular question is lost for ever, and that we are going to misappropriate this loot in perpetuity? Is there no possibility even now of referring the moral point involved in this exaction of £500,000 and of handing back to the Egyptians whatever balance an impartial international tribunal may say you wrongly took from them. Instead of talking loudly about benevolence to the Sudanese, cannot you ascertain that the Sudanese are more self-respecting than you are and would refuse to touch this blood-money and use it for benevolent purposes?
These are points which are far more pressing than the talk of schools and hospitals and the possibility of consulting the leaders of the Opposition as to how you should make benevolent use of this money. It may look a benevolent use, but it is not, however benevolent it may be in appearance. It is for your own selfish purposes that you will use this money. You extorted this large sum of money from the workers and the peasants of Egypt, and instead of spending your own money you put on airs and you make false representations to the people of the Sudan that you are so kind that you are spending for benevolent purposes the large sum of £500,000 which you have obtained by blackmail, and all the benevolent institutions will be nothing more than monuments of British injustice and British robbery in Egypt. I will still appeal to the House that instead of talking nonsense about consulting with the Leaders of the Opposition as to dividing the loot it would be far more honourable, even at this stage, to see the whole matter settled by referring it to an impartial international tribunal, and if the decision be against you to observe it than to attempt to be unjust by spending this money obtained by blackmail from the Egyptian people.
There is a short note in reference to this Vote to which I wish to call attention. It says:
"After providing for compensation for the victims of the outrage,"
and so on. There happens to live in my constituency a number of relatives who have suffered grievous loss through the loss of one of the chief officers on that occasion. I am sure that there is no necessity to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give generous consideration to their claims. I am sure that that will be done. But if there is any information which I can give, in addition to what he has already, I shall be delighted if he will allow me to place the claims of these relatives before him.
I am much obliged.
Question put, and agreed to.
Royal Irish Constabularypensions, Etc
Resolved,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £8,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Expenses of Pensions, Compensation Allowances and Gratuities awarded to retired and disbanded members and staff of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and to widows and children of such members, including annuities to the National Debt Commissioners in respect of commutation of Compensation Allowances, and certain extra Statutory Payments."
British Empire Exhibition,
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £158,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Expenditure in connection with British Government Exhibits and Sundry Displays at the British Empire Exhibitions, 1924 and 1925."
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I move this Amendment in order to raise a question with regard to the British Empire Exhibition this year and the conditions which are to apply, as compared with those which applied last year. I feel sure that I shall obtain from the Minister responsible satisfactory guarantees that the question of labour conditions will be looked into. I am aware of the fact that last year the British Empire Exhibition was in the nature of an experiment, and that, great numbers of mistakes were made in the management of the exhibition. I suppose that some mistakes were inevitable, but I should like to draw the attention of those concerned to the fact that considerable questions were raised among the organisations of the workers connected with the exhibition with regard to labour conditions and their treatment generally. Details of that treatment have already been presented to the House. What I am concerned about is not, to go over the objectionable features of last year, but to point out the necessity of finding beforehand methods of avoiding such features this year. I need refer only to the questions raised about the waitresses and other classes of workers, labourers in particular, before the exhibition was opened as well as after. I ask that instead of having the, scandal of last year, we should provide that when bodies of workmen and workwomen have grievances, and ask the contractors and firms to consider these grievances, the grievances should be looked into. Last year the big catering firm concerned, I understand, refused to negotiate with its employés in any way. I feel sure I shall be pardoned for bringing these matters before the Minister on this Vote. It is the only opportunity I have.
I think the Committee should view with a very critical eye the figures which appear on the Paper. The partnership—that is what it amounts to—of the Government in this exhibition has gradually grown. The relation of the Overseas Trade Department to this undertaking has always been very vague. Neither the country nor Parliament has been in a position to understand what has been the nation's liability. I remember that when the very attractive tattoo, for which we are now asked to find money, was announced in the Press, I wondered on what terms it had been arranged. We were told in the Press that these exhibitions of military movement were a great financial success; we were informed that they were the most profitable exhibitions given at the Stadium. Now we are asked to make a very substantial contribution towards the loss. I very respectfully submit that it is a very serious undertaking for the State to embark on the provision of entertainment out of the taxpayer's pocket. Music halls, theatres, kinemas, and so on, are generally a commercial success, but somehow this curious example of Socialism, this provision of entertainment by the late Government, has not proved profitable. While covering the loss of last year, we are now asked to assume a certain amount of liability for this year.
We ought to go very cautiously in the matter. In so far as this exhibition is likely to be of commercial advantage in helping our manufacturers to find new markets, of course it is all to be encouraged. In so far as the Dominions are to be drawn to take part in the exhibition it is a business proposition. But when it comes to our being responsible for the entertainment side at the expense of the taxpayer, we ought to go very slowly. One of the greatest justifications for continuing the exhibition this year was that it was to decrease the loss on last year's undertaking. Are we definitely to go on associating the State with this undertaking in order to ensure its financial success? The Minister ought to make clear the exact relationship of his Department and of the Government to this exhibition, how great our liabilities are likely to be, and whether, after passing this Vote, we may find ourselves in 12 months' time being again asked to provide still more money in order to make up a deficit.
I noticed that the hon. Gentleman opposite apologised for having introduced the question of labour conditions into this discussion. There was no need to apologise. We are only too glad to consider any case where there is thought to be injustice. I welcome the fact that the hon. Member has drawn joy attention to anything where he thinks an improvement might be brought about. He realises that I have not been long connected with this Department and that I do not know what went on before, but if he will come and see me at the Department of Overseas Trade, and tell me where there is something that could be put right, I will welcome him, and will use such power as I possess for dealing with the matter.
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to enforce, the fair wages and conditions clause in connection with the 1925 Exhibition?
I cannot say what shall be prepared to do, because I have not studied the point. I am prepared to do anything that I have the power to do, in order to provide for the comfortable employment of people with whom the Government are brought in contact. I shall do what I call to put right any grievances which the Government has power to put right. I think the other hon. Member who spoke is under a slight misapprehension as to how this Vote is framed. He must not mention this request for money in connection with the guarantee. He talked of it as if it was intended to compete with cinematograph shows and theatres outside. We put the matter on a much higher plane than that. I do not wish to be facetious. This work is of an educational kind. We wanted the children of the various schools of England to see what there was to be seen of the raw materials of the Empire. The exhibition was very attractive to the children. The amount spent on such an exhibition cannot be expected to return in the form of money. We, of course, are quite alive to the fact that every effort must be made to keep the expenses as low as possible. The hon. Member can rest assured that we regard the whole of the expenditure at the exhibition with a single eye as far as economy is concerned.
The Committee and the country want further information on this subject. How is this Estimate made up? Who is responsible for making up Estimates which are 100 per cent. wrong? Are they business people who make up the Estimates? are they accustomed to deal with finance? We are entitled to know why there is this great discrepancy between an original Estimate of £59,000 and a revised Estimate of £133,000. Then there are "Displays," original Estimate £83,000 and revised Estimate 2166,000. We come now to the 1925 Exhibition, and we have an Estimate of £15,000 for further Government exhibits. Can the Minister give us any assurance that that will not be exceeded by 100 per cent. or more?
I agree that it is a large amount to be asked for, over and above what was estimated, but, in view of the circumstances of last year, the weather and so forth, I ask, how could anyone estimate with any degree of certainty in such a large undertaking? All sorts of unexpected things crop up, and you cannot foresee them. We postponed the closing of the Exhibition for some time, and that called for the provision of more money. Displays were 281,500 extra. Repairs and redecorations made necessary by the wet weather called also for a very large sum. The Pageant of Empire was undoubtedly of great educational value to children, and we charged them very little for admission to it. We had thought of charging a higher sum, but made the sum lower in order that the poorest of the poor could see the Pageant.
Having the experience of the past year behind us and seeing how far out we were with our Estimates—I realise that it is difficult to estimate these things—I am now asking the Minister to assure us that we shall be nearer the mark in the Estimates this year.
I can give no assurance at all; I wish I could. As long as I happen to be in charge of the Department I am sure that my officers will back me up in keeping down the cost. I would be the last to allow anything like uneconomic expenditure.
8.0 P.M.
What Treasury control is there over this Exhibition? Am I to understand that the Overseas Trade Department runs and is responsible for entertainments in the Stadium and that the nation's money has been spent on organising and advertising the display at the Stadium? If that be so, it is a new form of trading on the part of the Government carried out in what is, I should say, a very unsatisfactory way. When a municipality goes in for a commercial undertaking there are proper safeguards, such as audits and so forth, to prevent extravagance and waste. So far as I know, the Treasury has no control over these commercial enterprises of the Overseas Trade Department. While last year we had a heavy loss, they might, next year, start an even more ambitious musical entertainment in the Stadium. I have no doubt as to its educational value, but, with great respect, if we have sums of money like this to spend on education we could spend them more profitably in the schools educating the school children in the wonders a the Empire. At a time like this, when the nation is heavily taxed and when prices are high, to embark on enterprises like this, involving heavy loss to the taxpayers, is thoroughly unsound, and we have a right to know what supervision the Treasury exercises over such enterprises.
I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman if the Dominions this year are going to make any contribution towards these displays? The, real cause of this Supplementary Estimate is first of all, the paltry original Estimate and secondly the fact that the Dominions and Colonies failed to pay up to the anticipations of those who prepared the original Estimate, while voluntary subscriptions which were partly promised were finally withheld. I should like to ask whether the Dominions and the voluntary promisers are making any contribution towards these displays in 1925 and whether a sum similar to that expended in 1924 is to be expended upon these displays in 1925. If so, does the hon. Gentleman not think that this is a very large sum of money to spend in the manner described? I quite appreciate the hardship experienced last year in regard to inclement weather. As a result there was a good deal of expenditure which otherwise would not have been necessary, but £166,810 seems a very large sum to devote to such displays as a pageant of empire and torchlight tattoo, We should, at least, be satisfied that we are going to receive full educational and trade value for that expenditure.
The hon. Member expresses the hope that he may be satisfied that we are going to get good value for the money. We have got value for the money. We are not estimating for future years. This money has been spent on the children of this country and on our overseas and foreign visitors and they have had the full benefit of it.
May I remind the hon. Gentleman that we contemplate repeating in 1925 what we did in 1924?
It is not quite within my province to discuss that at the moment. I can only discuss the Vote before us.
Page 38 of the Estimates contains a reference to displays in 1925.
Yes, but we have only estimated for a very small amount. We anticipate that the total expenditure of this year of £100,000 will be recovered from receipts.
The same last year.
This £100,000 has been estimated with the experience of last year in front of us, and no doubt those responsible have taken steps to see as far as possible that they are within the mark The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Williams) asked whether the Dominions were coming in. I do not think they will come in, and we shall have to undertake this without their help. With regard to what has been said about supervision over expenditure, I think hon. Members opposite will agree, that I should not get a single sixpence out of the Treasury without showing good reason for it. In fact strained relations and a certain coolness exist between the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Treasury and my Department in regard to that matter because he fights for every sixpence on behalf of this House. In any case we bear in mind the fact that this is public money, and we are as careful as this Committee would be in seeing that no money is wrongly expended.
I hope my hon. Friend will not be persuaded by the hon. Member for South West Bethnal Green (Mr. P. Harris) or the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague). These hon. Members seem to think that the exhibition is a commercial proposition which is going to produce dividends immediately, and they lose sight of the fact that it is really a great advertising campaign on behalf of the British Empire. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green had not, I think, the privilege of seeing that most interesting military tattoo, otherwise he would realise that it was of the greatest educational value in the military sphere. I cannot conceive of any more delightful entertainment for the children of our schools than witnessing the tattoo and the pageant of Empire, which could not fail to make a, greater impression on the children than the study of textbooks which is pursued all the year round. Further, the exhibition will have the effect of employing a great number of people. It will absorb a number of technically skilled men and women in normal employment for a period of at least six months. It is better that the taxpayers' money should be expended on schemes of that kind instead of on schemes which are not of immediate value to the community and which do not produce any dividends to the Treasury. I trust every effort will be made to reproduce the tattoo, and I take the liberty of suggesting that a certain percentage of the cost should be borne on the Army Estimates.
I compliment my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary upon the adroitness with which he has defended expenditure for which I was responsible. I hardly thought it necessary to take part in the Debate after the very fine way in which he treated me in answering the opposition to this Vote. I must also compliment my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) upon introducing a question which, I believe, does not arise out of the Vote at all, namely, the cost of Government participation, and I was struck by the Minister's avoidance of that subject while giving an acknowledgment that he would meet a deputation on a very important matter, namely, the treatment of labour at the exhibition during 1925. I had many difficulties in that connection, and I hope the hon. Gentleman opposite will be more successful than I was in dealing with it and in meeting the suggestion of the hon. Member for West Islington when the time comes. I should remind the hon. Member for Bethnal Green that when I brought forward the Supplementary Estimate last year, I said that the matter had been decided by the previous Government and I was only carrying opt a definite decision of our predecessors in office. If I had to choose an experiment in Socialism it would not be in the direction of a pageant of Empire. But even though I make that statement, I still defend the pageant of Empire. I think it was the finest thing produced at the exhibition and was the completion of the work of the exhibition. If this is the only expenditure asked for in connection with the pageant of Empire I feel its educational value is well worth the cost which the Committee is asked to meet. There are no schools and no institutions in this or any other country where a similar feature could be given, illustrating the work of the pioneers of the British Empire.
The shocking bad weather last year created difficulties, and when I point out that in six weeks there were only three fine days those difficulties can be well understood. If bon. Members wish to find difficulties of any sort in regard to the spending of public money let them deal with actors and people engaged in the theatrical profession who, they will find, have not much regard, much knowledge or much concern about £ s. d. Though I had many difficulties, and though some things may have taken place with which personally, was not in love, and which I would not defend very far, yet the Overseas Trade Department had not absolute control in all these matters but were only a party, and a very secondary party to another party which was in con- trol at the exhibition. It is a very difficult position for Minister when he has not absolute power to deal with matters of this sort but has to answer in the House if decisions have been come to by another body. That was really the position last year, and after the first year of the exhibition I urge my hon. Friend to profit by experience and to try to avoid similar happenings resulting in Supplementary Estimates of this nature to meet costs which should be avoidable after what was provided last year.
I feel that the hon. Member who has just spoken has made a confession.
May I appeal to hon. Members to allow us to get this Vote.
I regret I cannot meet the suggestion of the hon. Member. This is a matter of importance. We are confronted with the simple fact that a considerable sum of public money is spent where the Government Department concerned is practically at the beck and call of an outside authority. That is extremely unsatisfactory, particularly in view of the further fact that, through the control of the outside authority, money can be spent on military tattoos and in other similar ways which many people in the country feel now to be thoroughly dangerous. It is all very well to talk about military tattoos—
It being a Quarter past Eight of the Clock, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.
Aliens
I beg to move. me also in relation to the Ballot box in this House. but I have been unfortunate enough to be fortunate. I do not know whether I need make any apology for the Motion which I have put down, although I know it is a matter which was discussed only a few weeks ago on the introduction of the Aliens Act under the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill. I did not choose it in any kind of jingo spirit, and I certainly did not choose it in the way which was enunciated once in "Punch," when one workman was portrayed saying to another: "There's a foreigner, Bill: heave half a brick at him." I chose it because I have found, during the course of the last week and during the first half of January, when I was in my constituency, that it was a matter which seemed to interest all people, in whatever occupation they were engaged, throughout the constituency.
The terms of my Motion are very moderate. In effect, they signify approval of the powers at present delegated to the Home Secretary to regulate alien immigration, and also they imply that the Home Secretary ought not to allow any slackening of the present Regulations. On previous occasions, notably in the discussion in the Parliament of 1922–23, on a Motion which was then moved by the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Crook), and again on the recent discussion of the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill, the Labour party as a whole took up the attitude that they did not want any strict control of aliens. The main reasons advanced for that attitude appeared to be, in the first instance, that aliens were fully equal to and indeed, in the opinion of the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr), compared favourably with British subjects, and in addition to that the reason given was that a certain number of wealthy aliens had been permitted to come into this country, and being wealthy, from their point of view, they were naturally worthless, and in consequence foreigners who were poorer should be allowed to enter this country without let or hindrance.
Those are somewhat peculiar arguments, and the first one falls somewhat strangely from the lips of those who may be trade unionists, because surely they do not maintain that any man who is ineligible for their particular union is necessarily an inferior fellow being, and it is equally absurd to maintain that because you say there is already in this country a sufficient population of English people at the present time, you are, therefore, doing wrong in refusing to admit foreigners to swell the number. The second argument was the rather peculiar doctrine that two blacks make a white, because you say that since certain undesirable rich aliens have come in, you must in consequence admit undesirable poor aliens. I think it would be improving the position if you were, instead, to demand that the Home Secretary should tighten the Regulations upon the richer aliens, if indeed there exist to-day any room for the tightening of those particular rules. The Socialist party ought to thank me, I think, for putting down this Motion, not merely because they hope to score off me, as I am sure many of them do, but because it may give them a chance of enlightening the people of this country, who are somewhat astounded—and I say this from very real conviction—at an attitude which appears to them peculiar, provided, of course, that the Socialist party in this country takes its stand as a national party and not as an international party. They are given the chance, by this Motion, of throwing overboard an encumbrance which I am sure, from my experience in my own constituency, has very sadly impeded their progress.
I think it might be advantageous to consider for a moment what powers the Home Secretary possesses on this subject. They are based upon the Aliens Act of 1914, as amended by the Aliens Act of 1919. These Acts empower the Home Secretary to issue certain regulations, and, as is well known, the Socialist party not long ago desired that the Acts should be scrapped altogether. Under the 1914 Act, we find that the Home Secretary is given very considerable powers to regulate the entrance of aliens into this country, the places where they may stay, their registration, and so on, but these powers were only extended for the period of the War or in a time of great emergency. By the 1919 Act, these powers were given to him during normal times, and additional penalties were laid down, such as those for causing sedition or disaffection amongst His Majesty's Forces for causing industrial unrest in the case of any alien in any industry in which he has not been employed for two years immediately preceding in the United Kingdom. It was laid down that pilotage certificates cannot be issued to aliens, with a small exception in favour of a French master or mate in respect of the ports of Newhaven and Grimsby. It was further enacted that no alien could act as master, chief officer, or chief engineer of a British merchant ship, or as skipper or second hand of a fishing boat registered in the United Kingdom, except in the case of a ship or boat habitually used between ports outside the United Kingdom. It further went on to state that no alien could be employed in any capacity on board a British ship registered in the United Kingdom at rates of pay less than the standard rate of pay for the time being current on British ships for his rating; and it also mentioned that no alien might sit as a juror if challenged by any party to the proceedings; and there were other conditions in connection with enemy aliens which have expired in course of time.
There is another rather peculiar provision which says that in the ordinary course no alien is permitted to take a name other than that by which he is generally known, but the Home Secretary is given the power to do away with that condition providing that he is satisfied of the suitability of the man. I wonder if the Under-Secretary, who, see, is present, could give us any information as to the way in which the Home Office acts in this matter. Is there to be a similarity in the actual name? For instance, would Mr. Schmidt have awarded to him the name of Mr. Smith? Supposing a man rejoiced in the name of Mr. Levinstein, and wanted to be known by the ancient and honoured name of McLean, would the fact that there happened to be a capital L in both be sufficient justification, or, on the contrary, would the Home Secretary institute a rigid inquiry into the gentleman's antecedents, financial and otherwise, and only award him a Scottish name as a special badge of honour if he came up to the required standard? In any other case would the Home Secretary think he had only achieved the award of a mere English name I should be very interested to hear a few particulars as to the method by which this is arrived at. It may not seem a matter of importance, but we can all imagine the terrible dis- tress of the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood), who, I think, is, above all, a patriot and an admirer of his native country, if some Russian possessing the name of Kerenski were to assume the name of Kirkwood.
The powers given under this Act to the Home Secretary cannot be considered excessive, and the regulations which he has issued in connection therewith are far from being too strict. The desirability of giving preference to British subjects over aliens is admitted by the London County Council, who, I understand, will not award scholarships to the children of aliens, nor permit them to occupy council houses, and these particular provisos form part of the programme of the Municipal Reform Party for the forthcoming election. It is, perhaps, doubtful whether these restrictions on immigrants go quite far enough. I understand that if a foreign woman marries an Englishman, she automatically takes his nationality, and I have seen in the papers recently references to women of an undesirable nature attaining British nationality and entering this country. I should like to know, if possible, whether there is touch circumvention of the Act by this particular method. Further, it is a point of interest as to what happens in the ease of a woman such as that being divorced. Does she still retain her British nationality, or does she revert to her foreign nationality? If she still retains her British nationality, it is obvious to anybody what evils may arise.
With regard to the position in general, it was stated not long ago by the Home Secretary that there are actually resident in this country 272,000 unnaturalised aliens, and I should like to point out that the objection is not to aliens who come into this country, for instance, to visit the Wembley Exhibition. That was raised in the coarse of the Session last December. The objection is to those aliens who come permanently to swell our population, and to make it more difficult for our people to find work. I do not know what hon. Members think is a reasonable number of people to inhabit one house, but if I take it at five, and divide the total number of resident aliens in this country by that number, it means that these aliens occupy 54,000 houses, which would otherwise be lived in by British people. With regard to aliens in general, I do not wish for one moment to suggest that they are people who are necessarily personally undesirable, although it is, I understand, the fact that the proportion received into prison works out at one out of every 68 of the aliens in this country, whereas there is one alien out of every 160 people resident in this country. From that you find that there are 2⅓ times as high a percentage of aliens received into prison as British subjects. The figures I quoted in the first instance were given in reply to a question in this House on the 18th December, and those relating to the number of aliens to the total population were given in a speech by the hon. Member for Mile End in December.
I think the present Home Secretary's powers have been used very fairly, and in the interest of the British people, without bias against any particular nation or any particular race. I notice there was a deputation from the Jewish Board of Deputies to the Home Secretary recently, and that Lord Rothschild thanked the Home Secretary for saying he had no anti-semitic bias, and said the whole community would feel that the present Home Secretary had the interests of the country solely at heart. It is in the interests of the people of this country, who are faced with the hard times consequent on lack of work and shortage of houses, that I beg to leave this Motion to the judgment of the House.
It is a great privilege to have the honour of seconding the Motion.
Probably one of the great reasons why the party opposite did so badly at the last General Election was that people generally in this country have an idea, not without foundation, that the party opposite prefer to consider the interests of aliens to the interests of our own people. I am perfectly positive, at any rate, that the great hulk of the English electorate desire their representatives to do their best and think and act for British people first. I look at this subject of aliens in two different ways. The first is from the point of view of crime in this country. Looking at it quite impartially, we must admit that our free Constitution, and the freedom of thought which is granted to everybody in this country, encourage a certain amount of alien immigration which is entirely undesirable, and if you go to any high authority, or consult any eminent lawyer, he will tell you that the weaknesses of the Alien Acts in the past have helped to make considerably more crime in this country than if we had had in the past strong Alien Acts.
Therefore, when we realise that we have a large unemployed population in this country, a population which is a very good breeding ground for advanced revolutionary doctrine—I mean that; it is something the party opposite ought to deprecate just as much as we on this side —and when you realise that we are getting, because of our very freedom of thought in this country, a large number of people whom other Governments will not tolerate, and they come to this country and try to breed that same sort of revolutionary spirit here, I do think we are entitled as patriotic, constitutional people to take the strongest measures to counteract that [HON. MEMBERS: "Five per cent.!"] Well, the police authorities at Scotland Yard will tell you that they could decrease their staff considerably if they had not to bother trapping these aliens and following up their crimes. It may be argued—probably the late Under-Secretary for the Home Office will argue —that we have to be careful in regard to our Alien Acts, because if we make them too severe we may find that other countries will make Acts against our people emigrating to those countries. I do not agree with that. I think that the Britisher in the past has proved himself such a satisfactory citizen to every country where he has gone that that is not likely to be so. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and Scottish Members, know that no more desirable citizen is received in any country than the Scottish immigrant. We know of the adulation of the American for the Scotsman. The story is still talked about in New York about a Glasgow, or an Aberdeen, man who emigrated to New York, and the first night he was there he bought packets containing a million pins for 6d. He told his American friends the following morning that he had passed a sleepless night. "Why?" he was asked. "Because," he replied, "there were six pins short." That story is still talked about with admiration, and I do say this, that you will find there is no European country—and the United States is the same in this respect—that does not welcome with open arms, and is only too glad to avail itself of, English emigrants and their labour.
The other side of the question, and the greater side, perhaps, is the question of unemployment. I for one—I do not mind admitting it—am a strong Protectionist. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear !"] Yes, and I am not ashamed of it. In the same way that I am standing for protection of trade and industry I also stand for the protection of real British labour. I give way to no hon. Member on the other side in my respect for sound, real British labour. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but for some of us this is a question of our constituents, and they are entitled to say something on this matter—at all events, as much entitled as those on the benches opposite who say that they represent British Labour. When we realise the amount of unemployment in the country to-day, when we know that there are really good Englishmen desirous of working and unable to find it, it seems to me that the points sometimes put forward against us are humanity carried to the point of hypocrisy if we agree to allow any further aliens to come into this country. I am glad to say that I believe we have at the present time a really strong Home Secretary. I have not the slightest doubt that he will deal with the humanitarian side of the case properly in every proper case where there is likely to be hardship; but at the same time I also feel confident that he will take a strong line when necessity compels him to do so. I am certain that he is going to put, first and foremost, the interests of the British working man rather than to give too much sympathy to the others, which to my mind is carrying the matter, as I suggested before, to a hypocritical extent.
There is just one other point before I finish. Some of us on these benches are glad of the opportunity of this Debate, because we realise the need for making our Front Bench stronger in this matter. After all, front benches need to be strengthened sometimes. It may be that this one does not need it quite so much as the last Front Bench needed it. At the same time, I do think that a lot of us do realise the importance the country attach to this problem. We know that there are Englishmen and Englishwomen in the large towns and in the country districts who think that so far from there being weakness, and more sympathy being given to the alien, we should have even harder measures taken. I am not ashamed to say that, and with these last words I have great pleasure in seconding the Motion.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That." to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words
"whilst recognising, in view of existing unemployment and the shortage of housing accommodation, the need for some control for the time being over the entry of aliens into this country, this House is of opinion that the present rules and regulations are unnecessarily stringent in time of peace and cause undue hardship in many cases, and that the administration of the law could safely be made more sympathetic and humane, and more in harmony with the traditions of this country."
I have not had the peculiar experience of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the Resolution with regard to lotteries in churches or anything else of the kind. But it seemed to me, when I was listening to the case he put forward, that he had followed the usual practice of the party with which he is associated and had drawn a complete blank. As far as I am concerned, and as far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we are Internationalists. [HON. MEMBERS: "All of you?"]
Yes, and why not?
We are not afraid to say that we are Internationalists, all of us. [ Laughter. ]I quite understand that that may seem an extraordinary doctrine to hon. members opposite who may smile or laugh at a proposition which is absolutely new to them. So far, however, as we are concerned, we still maintain that we are Internationalists. We recognise that the boundaries between nations are really artificial boundaries all the way through, and that they may shift from time to time. Only a little while ago there were certain people on the Continent of Europe, some Austrians, some Germans, some Russians. To-clay they are Poles. That is the result of the country of Poland recovering its nationality. These people came together in that event. Before, they were divided, and had to fight each other on behalf of their rulers. Therefore, we want to face the problem from a new point of view, from that of humanity. After all, it is rather interesting to find all this uproar from the Conservative party regarding the aliens, and the interest of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Major Yerburgh) in the alien question in the interests of his constituents.
I discovered from the last census returns that there are exactly 672 foreigners in the whole of Dorset, of whom the larger proportion are ladies. During the whole of the time I have taken an interest in politics I have noticed that when persons of foreign extraction do become naturalised, do become British by the legal process, they generally become much more patriotic and much more British than the ordinary natural born British subject, and they are generally some of the keenest supporters of the Conservative party, and particularly so when they have the good fortune to obtain a considerable quantity of this world's goods. Sometimes, of course, they add grace and dignity to another place, becoming members of that great assembly. On a former occasion the Home Secretary, twitting me, suggested that. I would say, "Let them all come." I quite admit that at the moment, as the result of circumstances arising from the War, a position has arisen which is different from that existing before the War. I recognise that there is unemployment in this country, and, therefore, as I say in the preamble of this Amendment, we recognise that there can be certain restrictions so long as unemployment and the housing shortage exist, but we do not think they ought to be a permanent feature of the legislation of this country. I sincerely hope that even the Conservative party does not contemplate that the present amount of unemployment and the present housing shortage will always continue. Everyone in this House hopes the time will soon come when that condition of things has vanished, and then I want us to be able to face the position in the way we have faced it before.
The hon. Member who seconded this Motion is very keen on those he regards as "undesirables." So far as I could follow him, and I hope I am not misrepresenting him, undesirable persons in his view are persons who hold political views which he does not happen to hold. He said they were people whose own Governments would not tolerate them. I happen to be an Irishman, so far as extraction is concerned, and, together with my countrymen, have had many difficulties with the English people. But there is one thing which is to the honour and glory of England, that, for many, many years, it was a free political asylum. People who held views contrary to the views of the Governments of their respective nations could come here and find an asylum in this country. It is to the honour and glory of this country that it gave shelter to men like Mazzini. Men of this kind, holding those views, may come into this country very poor from the point of view of this world's goods. Very often they have been carrying on a political struggle in their own nation, have suffered financially as a result, and have had to fly, leaving behind them all their possessions. Therefore they may come into this country obscure men, poor men, and if we apply this sort of test they are the very persons who will be excluded.
Next I would like to turn to the patriotic considerations which have been mentioned. I am rather tired of hearing all this talk about patriotism, as if all the patriotism resided on the benches opposite. I think of the patriotism of people in the City of London. Once on a time we were never under any circumstances going to have anything to do with the German people, never going to hold out our hands to bloodthirsty murderers; we were going to squeeze Germany until the pips squeaked. Yet the other day in the City of London they were tumbling over one another to subscribe to the German loan, they tumbled over one another to subscribe to the Greek loan, but they left the loan for our own Dominion of Victoria, largely in the hands of the underwriters. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Ten per cent. !"] Where the percentage question comes in we find, somehow, that patriotism retires into obscurity.
I am concerned also with the administration of this Act as it applies to persons who are technically aliens. I have one case before me at the present moment, the particulars of which I would like to give to the House. It is the case of a young man, 27 years of age, who has recently been sentenced to six weeks' imprisonment and then deportation. At present he is in Pentonville Prison. This young man, now 27 years of age, was brought over to this country at the age of two. He was educated in this country, at the Lower Chapman Street London County Council School in Whitechapel. I hold in my hand a letter, dated 27th January, from the headmaster, saying:
I received this case only this morning, and I propose to bring it later to the notice of the Home Secretary and ask him to take it into consideration. In a case of this kind there ought to be no deportation at all. As a matter of fact, it is no good sending this young fellow to Poland: he does not know the Polish language. He has been brought up in this country and educated under our own elementary school system, and if there is anything wrong it is that system we should declaim against, not against his being an alien. Here we have the headmaster giving him a character of this kind. I could give many instances of this sort. I feel that the hon. Gentleman who has raised this subject is doing something which he thinks is good for the party to which he belongs. I can appreciate that in districts where there are no aliens or hardly any foreigners you can stir up a certain amount of antagonism. You can arouse antagonism in places where they know nothing about the thing at all, and if certain things are represented as taking place. The people in Yorkshire, for example, may imagine that these men are taking away the bread from the mouths of Englishmen, but as a matter of fact they are doing nothing of the kind. On the contrary in the East End of London they have brought in industries which have been beneficial to that part of the country.
I have lived in the East End of London all my life, and I have been in constant touch with the whole of the problems of that district, and I know that our alien friends have been as good citizens there as the Englishmen, Irishmen, Scot smell or Welshmen. [HON. Members "Oh, oh !" and Laughter. ] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to laugh, but where would the prosperity of this country have been but for the aliens who came here Where would your great trades and industries have been if many of them hail not been imported by aliens from all parts of the world? If it is a fact that aliens have been brought in under circumstances in which they have competed with British labour, who were the people who brought them in? They have been brought in by British capitalists, who are now trying to tickle the ears of the groundlings by declaring their patriotism and saying they are in favour of keeping England for the English. If you had kept England for the English, you would still have been in the condition which the ancient Britains were in. Therefore I am absolutely unrepentant over this question. I stand for the right of asylum. I stand as an internationalist on behalf of the whole peoples of the world, and I recognise neither class nor creed. I recognise that God has given this world to the whole of the peoples in it, and I want justice, not only for the people who happen to be born here, but for those who may come into it from other countries as well.
I beg to second the Amendment.
9.0 P.M.
We on this side of the House have been twitted with being friends of every country but our own, but what we want is the friendship of the whole world. Many of the utterances we have heard from hon. Gentlemen opposite would make us believe that they are anxious to have friendship here and enmity in the rest of he world. The hon. Gentleman who moved this Resolution referred to the alien population of this country, and I want to refer to it in connection with the 1911 census. The figures show that there were 275,000 foreigners here not naturalised who were 10 years of age and over, and of these 76,000 were retired or unoccupied. What I would like to ask is, upon whom are these people living? As regards those foreigners, a very large proportion of them are from countries with whom we went into the War, and one-fourth of the total actually came from enemy countries. As regards the other 188,000 the same thing applies. Where do we find most of these foreigners, and what classes do they belong to? In the first place there is a very considerable number of clericals here, nuns and sisters of charity. Is it suggested by hon. Gentlemen opposite that they are taking away the living of unemployed persons in this country? There is a, considerable number of nurses and teachers, and they are for the most part engaged in secondary schools. A large number of them are domestic indoor servants, and without any desire to give any offence, I say that they are largely employed by hon. Gentlemen opposite and those associated with them. A considerable number of them are cooks to whom the same thing applies. Many of them are commercial travellers, and by whom are they employed?
Then there are commercial and business clerks by whom are they employed, and by whom are they being brought into this country? Many of them are bank officials and clerks, and the same applies to them. Amongst those employed on the seas, rivers and canals, a considerable number are foreigners, and if we exclude these men will not our own seamen be excluded by foreign countries? It is quite true that there are many foreigners employed in the furniture, fitting and decorating trades, and it might be suggested that they are taking away employment from the people of this country. May I ask by whom are such people as those employed? Then we have the furriers. A number of foreigners are also employed in the clothing trade, and so far as that trade is concerned, those who employ them are no doubt making a pretty good thing out of it, and we are not far from the condition of things described by Kingsley in "Alton Locke." There is a large number of waiters and others, who are not domestic servants, and no doubt some hon. Gentlemen opposite are in the habit of "tipping" them. I do not know whether the same practice prevails as in the days of the war, when it was unnecessary for prostitutes, to whatever nationality they might belong, to have any passport in order to come into the country, and I do not know whether they are included in the returns of aliens or not. However that may be, it seems to me that there is a very great deal in how the alien population is made up. It is one of the easiest things upon which to get up a great deal of passion which has not much substance in it. I cordially second the Amendment.
My reason for wishing to support the original Resolution is that I thoroughly believe in it, and not that I wish—to use the pretty expression that we have heard to-night—to tickle the ears of the groundlings. I do not quite know what that means, or where it comes from. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shakespeare !"] Shakespeare was no alien. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do you know Shakespeare?"] He died before I was born. I shall, however, have much pleasure in informing my constituents of the pretty expression by which they have been described to-night. I am not against, and I believe the majority of the party to which I belong is not against., aliens simply as aliens. We feel, and feel most deeply, that, while many aliens coming into this country do this country very great harm, there are other aliens who may do this country very great good. I quite agree with a previous speaker who said that it would be wrong to stop aliens from coming in who bring their industries here. My own idea is, let all come who bring industries here. The aliens to whom we object are those who are coming here, not to help us, not to give employment, but simply to better themselves at the expense of our own people.
It is not very long since a member of the Socialist party quoted the fact that a distinguished and wealthy foreign personage was allowed to come to this country, whereas two wage-earners had been sent out of the country, and this Socialist member suggested that there were two laws, one for the rich and one for the poor. I quite agree with him in this particular instance, and say that it should be so. Let the alien who can come to this country and bring wealth to this country, and give employment in this country—let him come. There is no reason why that man should be stopped, because his coming would be a benefit to the workers in Britain. On the other hand, there is the undesirable alien, the alien who comes here to batten on us, to get his children educated at our expense, and then squeak when one of them is turned out of the country for breaking the laws of the country. That typo of alien is not wanted here. What is their history when they come here? They go to crowded and insanitary slums, and make those slums still more crowded and insanitary. Again, by their lower standard of living, they are able to squeeze a British working man out of his job in a British country and throw that man on to the dole. Some of these men become employers, and whom do they employ? The very worst sweated labour in the East End of London. They are the people who do the most sweating. That is a known fact which cannot be successfully denied, and no one would attempt to deny it who knows the facts.
There is another reason why I support the Resolution—a reason quite different from anything that has been mentioned to-night. It is that I feel that it is our duty as Britons to keep our race pure. It may be thought that there is a great deal of difference between Englishmen, Scotsmen, Irishmen and Welshmen, but, as a matter of fact, we are practically all of identically the same blood, all mixed up together. We have established a race of which I am proud, if Members opposite are not, and I want to keep that race as it is as pure as possible. In America at the present time there are many leading thoughtful statesmen who are very much perturbed at what they have seen going on in that country. They have noticed that, owing to indiscriminate immigration and the great fecundity of these undesirable aliens, the whole type of the race in the United States has tremendously altered during the last 50 or 100 years. The old Nordic type, as it may be called, is absolutely changing, and becoming what may be called the Alpine or Mediterranean type —a type far inferior to the fine old original English and Scottish colonist type. For that reason alone, putting economic reasons on one side, I support the Resolution. I feel that it is absolutely essential to preserve the purity of our race and to prevent contamination with the riff-raff—I do not say the best elements, but the riff-raff—[ Interruption ]—of Eastern Europe, the stiffs of the Mediterranean and the dead-beats of the world. For these reasons it is absolutely necessary that the powers of the Home Secretary should be retained. Figures have been given to-night, showing the large number of aliens already in this country, and that is in spite of the fact that it has been found necessary, during the last two years, to send away no less than 5,658. To my mind, that shows the necessity for these powers being retained as they are and in full, so that our own people may he protected from this unfair and undesirable competition, and the blood of the British people may be kept pure.
A certain hilarity has been imported into this Debate, which, in vie w of the importance of the subject, does not seem to be appropriate, although it is entirely appropriate if considered in the terms of the Resolution. So far as I can understand them they are that this House approves of the fact that the Home Secretary has power to do what he has the power to do and would disapprove of him being anything other than what he is, a proposition which would gain the unanimous assent of the House. Let me say, first of all, that the Motion does not really raise the issue before us, and, secondly, that, the speech of the Mover had no relation whatever to the terms of the Motion that he moved. I am not pre pared to argue that it is inadvisable that the Dome Secretary should have full and complete control over alien immigration. That is not the point at all. The point is whether the powers that he has are used in a way which will do justice to our own people in the first instance and to the general situation on the other. While I have regretted one or two of his decisions in this matter, on the whole, so far his powers have been used with moderation. I should like to say that at the beginning in view of the criticisms on the general position that I desire to make. The Motion would seem to suggest that the problem was an enormous one and that we have a constant stream of aliens coming into the country, each with his pockets empty and bringing nothing but vice and trouble with him. The statistics which have been published, and which may be had in the Vote Office, suggest something entirely different from that. The problem is in reality extremely small. It is probably smaller now than it has ever been in the history of the country.
The difficulty we are in to-day is that hon. Members seek to connect this question with a problem with which it is only very remotely connected. That is the problem of unemployment. In view of the unemployment that exists, we are bound to give to this alien question its full value, but we are not compelled to give it a false value, and when we are dealing with the relationship of the alien to unemployment., we must remember that the issue is not on one side alone. Is it quite clear that all aliens produce unemployment for our own people? If we may judge by industrial history the argument is certainly on the other side. No one can read works like Cunningham and Thorold Rogers and other eminent authorities without knowing that the industry of our country has benefited enormously from the skill, the discipline and the ingenuity which aliens have brought to our aid. Hon. Members opposite are in the joyous position of saying, "We in England have no more to learn. We can now shut ourselves entirely off from the world and we can do everything now for ourselves." That is not what history teaches us has been necessary in the past and, much as I respect my countrymen, I do not believe they know everything. When I travel abroad I know that whilst there are things we can teach them and on which we cannot be beaten, they are also able to do things which we cannot do as well.
Let us therefore, face this problem. We do not want merely to talk about it without facing the issues and the facts as they are. I suggest to the hon. Member for South Dorset (Major Yerburgh) that a certain proportion of alien population necessary for the carrying on of trade between one nation and another. We cannot live in these islands unless we trade—unless we are able to sell things to other people. And trade means employment. If we can get trade with other people, we can employ our unemployed, but in order to get that trade there must be the freest possible intercourse between the respective peoples. That means that if we are to send our commercial travellers to France, Germany, Italy or Russia, we must receive their commercial travellers here to make the exchange of commodities. Then take the case of the Embassies and Legations. We have representatives of other nations here to do the political business that is necessary between us. No one ever thinks of suggesting that they should not be allowed to come. Commerce requires just the same sort of Embassies. It requires the same sort of contact, and therefore if you shut out your alien, heedless of what lie is and what he represents, the reaction comes to you not by reducing unemployment but by increasing it. Think, too, of another aspect of it. In this Report which is issued to-day, I notice that during last year 385,000 aliens landed in England and 388,314 embarked. That is to say, they were trans-migrants. Actually more went out of the country than came in. Consider the amount of work that these trans-migrants produced for our own people in shipping and in transit—the work for our sailors and the rest. Our patriotic shipping companies do not carry these aliens free to America or elsewhere. They extract the last ounce of blood out of their alien passengers, just as they do out of us when they get us into their clutches. That aspect of it is to be remembered. One hon. Member opposite said his party respected the British worker. I take them at their word. They do. They should. They live on him.
Let us face a second item in this suggestion, that is to say, the suggestion that the aliens who come are more criminal than our own people, that a greater number of people who are aliens get into gaol than our own people. That is quite possible. When you are in a foreign country, especially when you are newly there, it is extraordinarily easy to do something that you ought not to do. I know my Friends on the other side when they go to America sin against the prohibition laws. [ Interruption. ] I am glad to have the assurance of an hon. Member opposite that that does not refer to him. In other matters I suggest that ignorance of our customs may involve an alien in trouble with the police which one of our own people would avoid. That is true of our own people abroad. They constantly get into trouble. Nobody asks, I certainly would not ask, that the habitual criminal should be free to come to this country. None of our people ask that. But we must have an understanding as to what is meant by the word "criminal." Who is criminal? The man who has made some criticism against a despotic Government, and comes here as his fathers came, and as our fathers were glad to receive them, as an asylum from persecution, is not to be regarded, even by the present Home Secretary, as inherently criminal. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman himself would not do so.
I never suggested anything like it.
My reference was to the terms of the Resolution, and not to anything the right hon. Gentleman has done. While it is true that we do not always receive people of perfect character from abroad in this country, let us also remember the number of mother's pets who have gone out of this country to other countries for their country's good. We are so jealous of them that when we send people to America, and the American people often send them to Ellis Island for three days' inspection, there is an outcry from hon. Members opposite that they are not treated and received in that genial way to which they think they have a right. There is a third aspect of the question. It is that hon. Gentlemen opposite fear the agitator and the revolu- tionist. That was made clear by the speech of the hon. Member who seconded the Motion. Suppose that fear exists in their minds. You cannot suppress ideas just as you can suppress other things. Ideas are really living and penetrating things, and if you try to suppress them there is a rebound to them which somehow overcomes all resistance. They are afraid that the social and industrial system which they and their fathers created and they support is so inherently wrong that it cannot stand the criticism of some alien who comes and looks at it. I sympathise with that terror which is in their minds, but I beg to give them some assurance. It is this. That whatever changes are going to take place in regard to English life, it will be by English thought and not by foreign thought. That change will grow naturally out of our own conditions, as changes always have in the past. That means, therefore, that we can continue to sleep in our beds and need not imagine that any puny little alien who comes into this country is going to turn the State upside down as the hon. Gentleman supposes. If the Motion proposed to exclude all undesirable people, it might be understood. That is not what is proposed. They are only "undesirable" because they are poor. That was made specifically clear. If they had money, no matter who they were, then they could come and be welcome. But if they were poor—
I do not think I ever made any reference like that. I suggested that the Home Secretary should keep the whole lot out.
The hon. and gallant Member may be quite right. I was not referring to him. If the person Came and had money, it was all right—let him come. If he was poor, he was to be excluded. I want to exclude all undesirable people, whether poor or rich, or whatever their means happen to be. We should face this question on its merits, and not be led away by false and superficial issues. In addition to the material benefits that this country has received from contact with alien peoples in the past, there are vast social benefits that it has also received. What has been the effect? It is that, ever since the time of Edward the Confessor, wave after wave of emigrant blood has come into our nation and, on the whole, our nation has been enriched by it.
The last speaker said that what we wanted was to keep the blood of this British people pure. There is not such a thing really as a pure-blooded people that is a progressive people. Any anthropologist will tell us that. Where you find a people with absolutely pure blood, it is absolutely certain you will find a stationary and very backward people. Our own blood has been enriched by centuries of infusion of the best blood that the continental nations have to give, and in ever so many ways we have been enriched. If I may point to a possible reaction, a result of that, let us ask ourselves why it is that we are able to colonise a little bit better than any other nation in the world. How is it that we, on the whole, can get on with the peoples whom we try to govern better than other nations can? It is just possible that the chief result is that we have got a touch of the universal in our blood, because we have been enriched by this universal experience. Therefore I beg that the Home Secretary will not he encouraged by the cheers of his followers behind him to take a harsher view of this matter than he has hitherto clone. We expect as far as he is able to do while watching the material and social interest of our people to remember also that England is still the land of liberty in the minds of many millions of people outside those islands. It was a tradition that was very precious to our fathers, and I hope in our generation we shall do nothing to destroy it.
In addressing this House for the first time I hope I may ask for special indulgence, inasmuch as my political education has been acquired principally in Australia. That being my frame of mind, I confess I am absolutely puzzled, not to say flabbergasted. I remember that in Australia there were Liberal parties and Labour parties, but from the other side of the House I heard the principle advocated of the Internationals and Communists, and I heard very little about labour or the principles of the Labour party. I see the Liberals sit opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] I remember the Liberals and Labourites in the most democratic and most progressive and happiest community on God's earth, that is in the British community in Australia. The remark was made on the other side of the House that this side of the House was "living upon labour." It is the leaders of labour who live on the labour electors. The labour leader in Australia makes it his duty to provide for the labour elector who puts him in power, and gives him his position and salary as a Member of Parliament. He expects that thin labour leader will return to the labour worker the maximum of comfort, the highest standard of living and the best conditions that can be obtained by the brains of his leaders. What do we hear in contrast to-day in this House? That the brains of leaders opposite are to be used in order to give this advantage not to labour in this country, but to the imported international.
We have heard much on the subject of ancient tradition and ancient history, back to the days of King Edward the Confessor. That is an argument with which it is exceedingly easy to deal. But before disposing of it, may I contrast it with the only other form of argument from the other side, and that is the argumentum ad hominem —the particular case of some unfortunate Pole or other alien, who, we are told, deserves great consideration from this Parliament. Much has happened to change things, fundamentally, since the Confessor. When altruistic principles, drawn from history, were upheld and were useful England was not chock full with population. To-day, England is overflowing with population, which is ever increasing, beyond measure, and the first duty of the representatives of labour in this country is to see that, notwithstanding that we have surpassed the limit where our production can give us the standard of comfort to which our fathers were accustomed, the diminution of that standard shall be as slight as possible, and shall not be accelerated by the very sanctimonious and not very profitable theories that we have heard this evening from the Labour benches.
Another most important change has taken place. At last the electors of England have realised the situation. They have realised that it is the duty of all who represent them, whether they be on this side of the House—the con- servators of the wages fund of England—[ interruption. ] Yes, that is what the Conservative party is to-day—we are the conservators of the reproductive possibilities of the self-denial and savings of ourselves and those who went before us. Whether Members sit on this side or on the other side, we are organised, elected and selected to give the workers of this country a higher standard of living, and our first duty is to see to that one point. It is because when the hon. Gentlemen opposite were in power they did not see to this that the electors have given a majority of 200 to another party, in order to put an end to all the compromising nonsense that we have heard from the other side to-night, to come down to bed-rock, and to administer the Government of England for the English people. [Hoy. MEMBERS: "British !"]
I represent the English constituency of Lancaster, and I may tell this House that those electors have opened their eyes. They want sound, strong and steady government for the benefit of the English people, and every single step in that direction, however small it may be, must be taken. It may be said that the remedy proposed in this Motion is small, but, at any rate, it is something. The people of this country expect that our 200 majority will leave no stone unturned in their endeavour to see that the wages and the standard of comfort of the English workers shall be as high as possible, and much higher than the standard of comfort enjoyed by the workers in other countries.
Let me put this crucial question to my hon. Friends opposite. How is it that the British worker enjoys this superior standard of living? It is because we have millions in India and other countries working for 3d. a day, and in the West Indies, where I had the honour to represent the King, we had men working for 8d. a day. Let it be understood that it is due to the brains, the organising ability, the honesty, the example and the strength of the British administrators, that while justice, prosperity and happiness are enjoyed by Indians and West Indian—[HON. MEMBERS: "On 4d. a day !"] at 8d. or 4d. a day, they are happier at 4d. a day than many of my hon. Friends opposite are on their £400 a year. Happiness is relative. When hon. Members talk of international rights and the international brotherhood of the workers, what does it mean? It means that world wages are to be lowered to a level average—if the theories and talk of hon. Members opposite are to have a logical result. I defy hon. Members opposite to go to the country with their international declarations of equality, and to let it be known that they want to bring about levelling down at our expense. If they dare preach that three or four years hence, when we go to the country, they will have lost any chance that they might hope for of displacing the real conservators of the wages fund of England It is only after a General Election like the last, when there is no prospect of going to the country for another four years, that it is possible for anybody to preach the policy of throwing open our doors wider to Alien competitors against our workers.
Our unemployed are not finding work because we cannot produce enough to go round, and there is not the possibility of there being productive work to go round unless we try every possible expedient to safeguard our own interests. For these reasons, I am confident not only that we shall record a majority in favour of the, Resolution, but I feel that three-fourths of the hon. Members on the opposite side are persuaded, as I am, that the policy outlined in the Motion is the right British policy to follow, and that it is what the British workers want, not be true to the Labour party, nor to the Liberal party; they belong to the Any who vote against the Motion should Communist party or the International party.
I have no intention of going into a general survey of the aliens question. That has been very admirably done by the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment. My main object in rising is to call attention to the three or four remarkable lectures to which the Labour party has been subjected from the other side. The Mover and Seconder of the Resolution are young men, and they have no knowledge of one very important factor in the case. I am older than they are. My mind travels back to 40 years ago. Perhaps it would be instructive to my young friends opposite when they attempt to lay the whole of the blame, if blame there be, in regard to alien emigration upon the Labour party, to know a few facts. The initial fault, if there is a fault, rests not with the Labour party but with Members of his own party 40 years ago up to the present time. I remember 40 years ago the great national strike in the furnishing trade. The employers at that time urged the employés to put in all they knew how. The more they produced the better for the employés and the bigger the wage which would be given to them. The employés took that advice, but when the employers found that the men were earning 25, £6 or £7 a week, they formed an association, and said, "These men are getting too much; we will reduce the tariff." Therefore they reduced it, and there was a strike. All Continental countries were scoured and alien labour was brought in, under the protection of the Home Office, to lower the standard of living, of which we hear so much from hon. Members opposite.
Then there was the great strike in the bottle industry. France, Belgium and every country in Europe were again scoured from end to end to bring bottle workers to this country to reduce the wages. This was again done under the protection of the Conservative Home Office. Later on we had our dock strike when we were fighting for a miserable sixpence per hour 35 years ago, and ships were purchased and laid up in the river, and the shipowners of this country again scoured the Continent for all the scabs they could get to prevent the docker getting his sixpence an hour. These people are still here. They were brought here, not by the Labour party, but they were brought in under the protection of the very Home Office which to-day is endeavouring to lock the stable door after the steed has gone. I have no sympathy with undesirable aliens or undesirable Englishmen either. To me undesirables are obnoxious, no matter from what country they come, but I would ask my genial friends opposite, when they indulge in criticism of other people's conduct, at least to take the trouble to clear their own doorstep before they attempt to foul anybody else's. With regard to the fear of the revolutionary alien, again I regret sincerely the lamentable ignorance, not only of the Mover and Seconder, but of the supporters of this Resolution. It is not the alien in this country who is the dangerous revolutionary. Our experience, which is closer than that of hon. Members opposite, tells us that the most dangerous revolutionary in this country is your ex-serviceman who has not secured justice.
By the trade unions not giving justice.
What we hear every day is, "What does it profit a man to win the war and lose the chance of a living wage in this country?" and that represents the tendency of thought in this country to-day. Only the other day we had two speeches in the National Liberal Club. One was by the author of "Coal and Power" endeavouring to convert the miner to the new policy enunciated in that volume. The other, in the same room on the same day, was by the Chairman of the Scottish Colliery Proprietors, stating deliberately and callously that the talk about a living wage for the miner was an absurdity. That is where you get your dangerous revolutionaries. That is the secret of the whole thing. The influence of the alien is infinitesimal as compared with the disgust, and not only the disgust but the desperation, of the men in this country who, whether they were aliens or not, are not receiving justice to-day from the captains of industry in this country. As I have said, I have no sympathy for undesirables, but if you look through the records of this country and this House you will find that we have many man to-day who are the descendants of aliens, and who have given honourable and valuable service to this country. If you applied this all round no one would support it more heartily than myself, but it is all camouflage. Even now, when we have this Resolution before us, the Board of Trade are carefully considering, in spite of the protest of the Seamen's Union, the proposal that the German and every foreign seamen shall have equality of opportunity on British ships. What is the use then of their talking about aliens What we say is that barriers, national and international, are bad and stop progress and prevent freedom of the people.
The hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his remarks about revolutionaries. I wish to deal with the question of aliens as it exists to-day. I do not wish to detain the House with matters which occurred 40 years ago. The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Snell) went back even further. He went back to the time of Edward the Confessor. So far as history shows, in the time of Edward the Confessor there were not 1,200,000 unemployed registered in this country. That is the dominant fact.
Not registered, but they were unemployed all the same.
The hon. Gentleman's knowledge of the early history of this country is certainly greater and more peculiar than my own. Before I deal with the Resolution, I wish to make an apology to the Mover of the Resolution for being unable to hear his speech. I was detained at a public gathering which I could not leave at the time and had to come away earlier than usual in order to reply to his speech. My hon. Friend asked me one or two definite questions which I will answer. He asked, first, whether a change of name is allowed to an alien; for instance, whether Schmidt can become Smith and Levin-stein become McLean. No change of name is allowed unless the Secretary of State permits it in a particular case. Ordinarily the alien who comes here under our immigration law is not allowed to take an English name when he does so. My hon. Friend also asked about alien women marrying British subjects. The position is that the woman takes the nationality of her husband. If an Englishwoman marries an alien she becomes an alien, and if an alien woman marries an Englishman she becomes a British subject. Marriage is the dominating factor. If the alien husband is divorced or dies, the woman still remains an alien. But the Home Secretary has power to readmit to British nationality a widow or a woman who divorces her alien husband, and I have the pleasure of telling my hon. Friends that, week by week, I do readmit to British nationality a good many women of British nationality who have gone abroad, married aliens, since dead, and who now wish to come back to this country. The Act gives me the power to do that and I do it frequently.
The hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Scurr) made not quite the same speech, but more or less the same speech as he made a little while ago. He is the one unrepentant Member of the party opposite. Every other hon. Member opposite has agreed more or less with the restrictions. The hon. Member for East Wool- wick (Mr. Snell), whose personal courtesy to myself I acknowledge, was quite frank in saying that with many of the restrictions he agreed, and he said that with much of my administration he found no fault. The hon. Member for Whitechapel referred to his previous speech with regard to the admission of all aliens, and at, the end of his speech—perhaps it was his eloquence that ran away with him—he burst into a paean of joy at the possibility of aliens of all types corning into this country in the way in which they used to come before there were any restrictions.
I made it perfectly clear all the way through my speech that owing to the War there was a change in the position, and that some restrictions might be necessary while those particular conditions existed. I said that I did not want that as a permanent part of our legislation when those conditions had passed away.
10.0 P.M.
It is true that the hon. Member did say that, but if he will refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow he will see that at the end of his speech he returned to his earlier manner of a few months ago and was in favour—I speak subject to correction by the OFFICIAL REPORT—of letting them all come in. But if he is prepared to admit that in the special circumstances of to-day, having regard to the number of unemployed we have, certain restrictions are right, all that I have to do to enable this Resolution to be carried is to convince the House, not that the restrictions are desirable, but that the restrictions are proper restrictions properly carried out. I propose to do my best to prove that. I think the House knows the line on which I have gone, during the short time that I have administered these alien restrictions. I have made my views plain in more than one public speech and in reply to deputations on the subject. The dominating factor, in my mind, in all these questions is the well-being of my country, and not the well-being of aliens who desire to come into it from other quarters. That is the gulf between myself and the hon. Member opposite. He referred to the great days when we were the refuge for the downtrodden of Europe. I agree that they were great days. It was a proud thing for England to be able to say that she was the home and refuge for every man who was the victim of political persecution or who desired from one cause or another to flee from his own country. Those were great and spacious days. They may come again, but they cannot come again as long as there are over one million unemployed in this country.
That is rather an important statement. Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the old days, when this country was the political asylum of the oppressed, have passed?
Surely I made it quite clear. While there are 1,000,000 unemployed in this country the old free entry of the alien, whether he was oppressed or persecuted or whatever might be his reasons for desiring to come into this country, could no longer be permitted. Let me make it clear that the question of aliens resident here is quite different from that of aliens who desire to come here. There are large numbers of aliens resident here. The numbers do not vary very much. Duing the last four years they have varied only by some 5,000. Four years ago there were 278,000; now the figure is down to 272,000. These men, women and children are entitled to remain here. Many of them came as children with parents who emigrated here 10, 20 or 30 years ago. They have lived here since I say quite frankly to my hon. Friends on this side, that we are bound by the laws that were in force in those days, and it would be a cruel wrong if I were to utilise my powers of deportation by saying that I would deport wholesale the whole of the aliens who have been here for all those years. That is an impossible position. They are here I have made careful inquiries from the police and on the whole I do not think there is much more crime amongst these aliens than there is amongst the British people. They are living here; they have been permitted to come. They are carrying on their work. Perhaps in some parts of the East End and one or two other places they are living in a more crowded condition than we would like, but, after all, until we have been able to deal with our own housing question and our own slums we cannot cast stones at the way in which some of these unfortunate people are living. At all events I ask my hon. Friend to realise that that part of the alien question is one with which I cannot possibly deal, because by the action of other Governments these people have been given the right of asylum in this country. We have allowed them to come here and have welcomed them, and here they must remain as long as they choose to do so and as long as they obey the laws of the land.
I want now to deal with the aliens who wish to come here. We are not dealing with them as harshly as some hon. Members think. They seem to think that we are keeping out aliens who would be desirable immigrants. Here are the terms of the Alien Restriction Order under which I act. I am not a pure despot. I cannot do exactly as I like. I can only act in accordance with the law of the land and the Regulations made under the authority of Act of Parliament, which, by the way, are repeated in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act every year. Only a few months ago they passed through this House, and hon. Gentlemen opposite, when in power, produced them to this House and asked this House to pass them again for the current year. These are the very restrictions under which Tam acting. They are quite plain. Leave is not to be given to an alien to land in this country unless he is in a position to support himself and his dependents. Is there anybody here who will object to that Clause? Is there anybody to say, "I want the door opened to the penniless alien who will be a charge on the rates of this country"?
Is it not the case that a refusal has been given to the application of a British woman who is married to a German and who is anxious to bring him to this country and who would be received by her people here? The case was presented to the Home Office before the right hon. Gentleman's time. This man will not in any way be a charge upon the British people, but will be provided for by her own people.
The hon. Member is good enough to say that the case arose before my time, and I presume he means during the time when his own friends were in power. I am hardly responsible, and all I can say is that, carrying my mind back over all my cases, I do not think I have refused admission in a single instance to a British woman.
It is the Department's position.
I beg the hon. Member to believe that in this matter the Department thinks the thoughts of the Home Secretary and acts upon the decisions of the Home Secretary. I should like to say at once that the officers of my Department are most loyal to the views of the Government in power and do their utmost to carry out the wishes of the Home Secretary who happens to be, for the time being, in office. If an alien is desirous of entering the service of an employer in this country he has to produce a, permit signed by the Minister of Labour or his Department. I do not think that is an undue restriction. Also, he must not he a lunatic, an idiot or mentally deficient. Another requirement is that there has not been a certificate by the medical officer who inspects him on arrival that he is undesirable on medical grounds. It is an unpleasant subject, but I may say that even during the time I have been in office we have had to refuse aliens who were so verminous on landing in this country that they had to be sent back. It was not desirable to allow them to land here. Of course, they are very few in number, but I am only dealing with the restrictions under which I am working. Another restriction is that the alien has riot been sentenced in a foreign country for any crime which is within the meaning of the Extradition Law.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will inform us now if a certificate from the Minister of Labour that the alien will get employment in this country is sufficient?
I am going to give full details as to the number of aliens who come in with certificates from the Minister of Labour. If an alien gets a certificate from the Minister of Labour that work is waiting for him here, he is entitled to come in and take that work.
Even if there is a strike here?
I am not dealing with strikes. I am dealing with the ordinary way in which aliens come in. I think when I have explained the conditions and restrictions, and shown the care taken by the Minister of Labour before issuing these permits, the hon. Member will see it would be quite impossible to import aliens in thousands during a strike. That is a very far-fetched idea. The alien also must not be subject to a deportation order which is in force. Obviously, if we once deported an alien, we do not want him to come back. Further, the alien must not have been prohibited from landing by the Secretary of State, and he must fulfil such conditions as the Secretary of State may make. The Secretary of State has made no special conditions. All we are trying to do is to carry out these particular conditions which are the law of this country, passed by Parliament. Nobody has got up to say that they would abrogate at the present time and in the present circumstances any one of these restrictions.
Except in the case of a wife joining her husband.
I think I dealt with that point in reply to the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour).
The right hon. Gentleman said he had not experience of any such case, but he did not say what he himself would do if such a case arose.
I say at once what I would do. If the hon. and learned Member puts the case to me of an English wife desiring to join her husband here—
No.
Yes, quite right.
I cannot answer both hon. Members at once. I will deal first with the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney). I should certainly, unless there was something in the case which does not now appear on the face of it, allow such a woman to land. Now, as to the case of the hon. Member for Dundee.
The right hon. Gentleman should realise that this is a case of a British woman whose husband is a German. He is not coming here to take on any duties, but is to be looked after on this side without coming on the British people in any way. Her application has been declined, and I wish to see if there is any possibility of furthering it.
It seems to depend on where the husband is. If she has married a German and her husband is living in Germany may I say the proper place for the wife is with the husband.
The desire of the wife is to be resident here with her own people, and to look after her husband who is incapable of looking after himself.
That case seems to depend on the circumstances. If there were a divorce I should certainly allow her to come in. The hon. Member however puts it that she desires to live with her husband.
No, to bring her husband.
Oh, no. I say without hesitation that I certainly should not permit the German husband to come back here. That is the answer.
That answer confirms what was done before. My case is proved.
The figures which have been given by hon. Members on the Opposition side are, I think, correct. Last year 388,000 aliens came into this country, but just 200 more went out, I wish the House to realise that there is a large floating population coining in and going out. Of the number mentioned one-third were Americans come over here for Wembley; 23,000 were Belgians, 38,000 Dutch, 52,000 French, 29,000 Scandinavians, and 116,000 Americans. Nearly all were visitors in the ordinary course, and obviously we do not want to make restrictions to prevent them coming here. Equally obviously, we do not want to make restrictions to prevent people coining here on legitimate business. We want to encourage trade between this country and foreign countries. There were a number of diplomats in connection with the various Embassies, and 75,000 of those who came over came for business purposes. I had the privilege the other day of inspecting two alien immigration offices. One was on board ship. I sat by while the officers of my Department were interviewing the aliens. The very greatest care was taken about admitting them into this country. If a man said, as a good many did say, "I am coming here to study, at such and such a school or uni- versity," the officer said, "It is all very well to say that, but have you any references or any papers to prove that you are going to Oxford or to such and such a school?" and invariably they had to produce their credentials. There were men who said they were coming on business, and were connected with such and such a firm, but the officers said that that would not do, and they must show their papers. There was a man who looked exactly like a commercial traveller, and he said, "My papers are not in my pocket, they are in my bag," and he was actually sent upstairs to get his bag and produce his papers, so as to prove definitely and conclusively that he had good reasons for coming into this country.
I want to assure the House that these immigration officers, who are men appointed before my time—appointed, it is only fair to say, by the Government of the party opposite and by the previous Government—were appointed with very great care, and they have now very great experience and are working the Act quite carefully and tactfully. It is only fair to say that I saw no harshness of any kind in regard to any of these aliens, but, at the same time, they are working with the distinct instructions from myself not to let anybody in unless there are legitimate grounds for doing so; and I am not in the least ashamed of the circular which I sent to the immigration officers some few weeks ago, in which I told them that in carrying out their difficult duties, if there was any doubt in their minds, they were to give the benefit of the doubt to this country rather than to the aliens. I think that was a right and proper course to take, and I am not at all ashamed of it.
Let me explain what takes place when an alien desires the permit of the Minister of Labour to come into this country. First of all, the would-be employer has to go to the Minister of Labour and fill up a form stating that he wants such and such an alien to come into this country, giving his nationality, the salary or wages he is giving, and the steps which he has taken for seeing that the job cannot be equally well done by an Englishman. He is also asked whether he is willing to sign a form undertaking the responsibility of shipping the alien back again to the country from which he came if called upon by the Department to do so. As soon as that form is filled up, the Minister of Labour makes inquiries, and sends down to the Employment Exchanges to find out whether there is any particular labourer at any of the Exchanges in the neighbourhood to which the man is going who could do the job for which the employer has asked permission to bring in the alien, Every possible care is taken, in the interests of the working classes themselves, and in the interest of trying to do away with this terrible mass of unemployment, so that the selfish employer, if I may so call him, shall not be able to get in cheap alien labour, until the Ministry is assured that that work cannot be done equally well by a British worker. That is the Regulation under which everybody has to pass. [An HON. MEMBER: "Irrespective of wages? "] Yes, undoubtedly, and the employer even has to mention to the Department the wages he is going to pay to the alien, and the Department has to be satisfied that they are not lower wages than would be charged by an Englishman doing the work.
Does the Department satisfy itself with regard to agricultural labourers brought over for the harvest, for the potato harvest particularly?
If the hon. Member will tell me of any agricultural labourers brought over during the harvest period, I shall be glad to look into it, but I do not think there was one last year.
Oh, yes!
Where from?
I do not know where they are from, but there is one hon. Member behind the right hon. Gentleman who must know—the late President of the Scottish Farmers' Union. What is clear is this, that at potato harvest time they come, but where they come from I do not know. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ireland ! "] It does not matter whether they come from Ireland.
They are not aliens.
The point is that they are brought in as cheap labour to do Scottish and English people out of a job.
I hope the hon. Member will not get himself into difficulties for calling Irishmen aliens.
I said cheap labour.
We are not dealing with cheap labour; we are dealing with alien cheap labour, which is quite different from ordinary cheap labour. There were no alien harvesters admitted into this country last year, and the hon. Member has no right to say in an Alien Debate that there were. I have a full Report from the Minister of Labour, who works these Regulations in conjunction with my own Department. The kind of labour we allowed in included a certain number of domestic servants, a certain number of musicians, a certain number of variety artists, clerks, foreign correspondents, book-keepers for the foreign departments of English firms, and a certain number of industrialists. There were only 473 alien industrial workers admitted during the whole of last year, including a few engineers for the erection of imported machinery, and to train British labour employed upon it, a few glass-workers, a few furnace men; a few sugar-beet workers to explain the work, and some teachers in our elementary schools who came from France under an arrangement made between our Board of Education and the French Board of Education in order to get better teaching of French in our schools and better teaching of English in theirs. Even they had to get a permit from the Minister of Labour. There were also a few nurses and others who wanted to complete their training here. [An HON. MEMBER: "How many waiters?"] No, I think we have quite stopped the flow of foreign waiters into this country. As the House knows, I mentioned in a speech the other day, that when I was abroad this winter I was inundated at hotels with requests that waiters might be allowed to come over here. An hon. Member opposite says they come. It is true. That is one of our difficulties. A few come, but I do not think very many, the net round our coasts is now working so well.
Our immigration officers are doing their work so well that I think very few men get through the net. There are a certain number of sailors who come over here and pay someone to put them on shore in a small boat. They do not know where to go; they have no passports, no registration papers, and they speak a foreign tongue, and nearly always they are afterwards picked up by our police. I have been asked how I use the powers given to me of deporting aliens. I deport these men, and the right hon. Gentleman who was Home Secretary before me in the Labour Government deported them, and quite rightly so. When we have laws here in regard to the immigration of aliens approved by the House of Commons, and men deliberately break those laws, the first use we make—and rightly make —of our powers of deportation is to get rid of these particular men. The idea that deportation is a wholesale act of revenge on the part of any Home Secretary is altogether an absurd one, or that he puts out any alien that he does not like. The total number of people deported last year was 309, and of these, 102 came in here without any right whatever.
Then there are those who have been convicted of crime. The hon. Member opposite referred to the case of a man who, he said, had been in this country for 25 years, who had been convicted of failing to maintain his wife, was sentenced to six weeks' imprisonment, and then recommended for deportation. In respect to a case of this sort I should like the House to know that the Home Secretary has some sense of responsibility. I do not sign a deportation order in every case where a magistrate has advised deportation. I go through the papers. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite are rather surprised that that is the course of business at the Home Office? These cases are all gone through first by two or three officials and then they come up before my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. He passes them, and they come up to me. If there is any single thing which any one of these officials thinks will lead to the slightest doubt that it is right to deport the person concerned I personally go into the case from top to bottom. The case to which the hon. Gentleman referred will doubtless come up before me, and will be considered most carefully, first by the officers of the Home Department, and then by myself. If the hon. Member can put any point which apparently has not been made before, and if there is a defence, which even may not be a legal defence, but which is a moral defence, I shall entertain that, and go into the case quite irrespective of the conviction; I shall not deport that man unless I am satisfied that the deportation is in the interests of this country. That is the main factor in my mind when I have to deal with a case of deportation, and I am quite certain the hon. Gentleman the late Under-Secretary for the Home Office will appreciate that point.
There are also a number of cases perhaps more difficult to deal with, where there has not always been an Order made by the Magistrate, cases of horrible crime, cases of disease—and, after all, we are entitled to protect our own country. I cannot mention some of these cases openly, or some of the things done by some of these men engaged in the cocaine traffic, or engaged in the harbouring of prostitutes; men who, themselves too, are the victims of disease which one does not mention in the ordinary way; and they may be spreading these diseases right around. These are unpleasant duties. But there are a good many unpleasant duties attached to the responsible and high office I hold. These duties are part and parcel of the Home Office, and I have got to carry out those duties to the best of my ability, for the law has given me those powers to deal with undesirable aliens.
It has been suggested that a Committee should be set up to deal with these cases. I think you would find it better to leave the responsibility upon one man who can be attacked in this House, if necessary, than to leave it to a body as suggested. Cases are taken up by hon. Members from time to time, and they either come to me or write to me about a certain case where they think I am acting harshly, and I trust that up to the present I have been able to satisfy them that I have not acted other than in the interests of the country. I think it is far better to allow the responsibility to remain where the House has put it, in the hands of a Minister of the Crown, who is a servant of this House, who has got to hold his position as a Minister at the discretion of the House. My salary may be attacked. My position can be destroyed if I do wrong, and I think it is better to leave the grave and difficult responsibility where it is rather than to put it in the hands of a Committee inside the, House or of magistrates outside.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the number of those deported for political reasons, or suspected of political principles or connections, if any?
I say none. I do not deport people for that. I do not know what the hon. Member means by deported for political principles. As somebody on the opposite side said, the worst revolutionaries are English people, and I have no power over them; I do not touch them; if I had the power, I do not know what would happen. Stretching my memory over the cases I have gone through, they were nearly all of them, as I say, engaged in traffic of one kind or another and undesirable, but political, certainly not.
But it was suggested from the other side that many of the deportees were of that type.
No.
Oh, yes, the Seconder said that.
Well, I am not responsible for that; and forgive me for saying that nobody can really know what the Home Secretary knows. It is very difficult to deal with these eases. I admit that they are very great powers to place in the hands of any individual man, and the House must trust me to exercise them to the best of my power. I can assure the House, and I want to do that, that the dominating factor in my administration of this Act, and of these restrictions, including deportation, is, what is desirable in the interests of this country? I lay down as a broad proposition of political economy at the present moment, that any country is entitled to decide whether it will have aliens or not, and upon what conditions it will have aliens. Other countries have such laws. America makes far more stringent conditions than we have, has very much more stringent regulations regarding the admission of aliens, and it is quite entitled to make them. We are entitled, as a sovereign country, to maintain the sovereignty of our own shores. We have done that by means of these restrictions. We have not said, in a broad way, "We will admit only so many aliens," or, "We will refuse to admit aliens altogether"; that, I think, is an impossible position. We have said we will admit aliens only when it is for the benefit of this country to do so, and we will not admit any alien who comes within those particular restrictions to which I have referred. I trust the House will pass this Resolution, and, by doing so, approve, first of all, of the restrictions which were passed by a previous House; and, secondly, I am going to ask the House to approve the way in which the present Home Secretary has administered the Regulations.
I think the House will appreciate the fact that the Home Secretary has approached this subject in a spirit very different from that shown by the Mover and Seconder of the Resolution. I felt when those two hon. Members were speaking that they were moved by that periodical wave of anti-alien feeling which sweeps over this country from time to time. The Home Secretary, by his speech, has very largely dissipated that. I would like to ask the Home Secretary one question. In his statement he said that none of the persons who were deported were "politicals." I understood him to say in a previous sentence in his speech that, so far as he was concerned, no alien deemed to be a political would be allowed to land in this country under his regime.
I do not think I said that. If the hon. Gentleman has any instance of a case, will he give it? I do not think I said that at all. A politician may come into this country, but not if he is undesirable in other respects. In those restrictions there is no single word dealing with political opinions.
The right hon. Gentleman has sent out a circular to the immigration officers, and he seems to have indicated in that circular that when the interests of this country and those of the aliens have to be weighed the benefit of the doubt must be given to this country. I fail to understand how the interests of the aliens and our own people can always be in conflict. The Home Secretary knows full well that there are hundreds of Germans who have lived in this country from their youth, and consequent upon the War were deemed to be aliens and were repatriated. There are cases of men now living in Germany who come in that category and whose wives and children are receiving Poor Law relief in this country. I say that so far as my experience of the Home Office goes those were the eases that affected my mind most, and I hope that the Home Secretary in sending out those instructions to the immigration officers will bear in mind that if it is at all possible the father and husband should be allowed to return, and if the Regulations can possibly be stretched on that point these men might be brought back again to their families.
I do tot think the Home Secretary has done himself justice in everything he has said to-night. I know that he has a very difficult task to perform. His work falls into three categories — immigration, naturalisation and deportation. I should be very much surprised if the Home Secretary gives any heed to what has been said in regard to deportation by the supporters of this Resolution. I can hardly think that any Home Secretary, whatever his politics may be, can be harsh in dealing with deportation. When dealing with naturalisation I have one complaint to make. When I went to the Home Office I found out to my astonishment that the first person to be naturalised by the authorities was a Welshman; and being myself a descendant of the oldest race within the Empire, I rather resented the Government dealing with a "Welshman in that way. We are, however, dealing with immigration. I think I am right in stating that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite was proposed in the main because there has been a fear expressed in this House and outside that the Labour Government was too prone to admit aliens into this country.
As one who had something to do with the admission of aliens during the last year, I must confess that whatever the form of the Government may be, or whatever its political colour, I cannot see how the doors can be opened to all aliens to be admitted into this country when we have over 1,000,000 people unemployed and the housing problem is so serious. That, however, is quite a different thing to finding, as we have seen to-night on the other side of the House, such an anti-alien feeling that they would not admit a single alien. I found in the administration of these Regulations that it was a good thing on occasions to allow some aliens to come here. Many trades have disappeared entirely from this country since the War on account of repatriations, and it would be beneficial if those people who were repatriated during the War were allowed to return to these shores to carry on their trades once again. I would say to hon. Gentlemen opposite that they are doing a grave injustice, not to the aliens, but to the people of this country, if they give heed to newspaper stunts on the question of aliens. I trust that this House will retain its balance in this matter, as has always been the case. I will give the figures as to the admission of aliens into this country, so that I may dispel, if possible, the allegations that are sometimes made that we are so internationalist in our outlook that we have no love whatever for our own country. The figures for 1922, 1923, and 1924 are as follow:
May I ask the bon Gentleman whether the regulations quoted by the Home Secretary were in force during the time of the last Government? Were the same regulations used?
Yes, Sir, the same regulations and the same Acts of Parliament; and the Circular issued by the present Home Secretary, I take it, is well within the Regulations and the Acts of Parliament in force. The point has been made, and I think it is an unfair point against the aliens, that the percentage of crime among them is heavier than among natives. The fact is that, so far as I know, all crime includes, for percentage purposes, the cases mentioned by the Home Secretary. That is to say, when a stowaway lands, or a sailor comes to these shores and he has not found a ship within three weeks, he is then deported. All those cases are included in the percentage of crime. I say that, so far as my knowledge goes, the volume of crime in this country among aliens residing here permanently is not heavier than among our native population. I should be glad if the Home Secretary could give the House any information as to the position in Southampton. Some of us have been very much disturbed to find that shipping companies are allowed to bring emigrants intended for America and elsewhere into this country and dump them in Southampton; and I think I am right in saying that the authorities in this country do not know what to do with them. It does seem to me that, if the Home Secretary's powers are to be increased at all, they ought to be stiffened in this respect, that no shipping company should be allowed to exploit emigration and put these people in the position in which they find themselves in Southampton for some months, and in some cases for a year.
The hon. Gentleman has made a point that I have not dealt with. I will state the position. It is true that there is a large transmigration business between the Continent and America. They come here. They are transhipped into Hansa Atlantic boats and go over to America. Certain steamship companies 18 months ago brought a large number of these unfortunate aliens here, at which particular moment America shut the door. They established the quota. These unfortunate people arrived here, and the result was that there were some 900 aliens landed, before my time, and I think before the hon. Gentleman's time, at Southampton. They are in hostels at Eastleigh at the expense of the shipping companies, and they have been there for some time. Two hundred of them were got over to America last year. The shipping companies hope they will get some 200 of them over when the quota is open this year, and they have applied to me whether I will allow the remainder, 500 or 600, to be released for emigration into this country. I have replied quite definitely that under no circumstances will I permit these unfortunate people to be absorbed into our population. It is quite impossible. They are the class of people who come from the east of Europe that we do not want, and America does not want them either. It is unfortunate for the shipping companies, but they are responsible. They have to sign undertakings before they enter into this business that they will be responsible for any liability for these unfortunate people. They have spent a large amount of money. I am afraid they will have to remain in these hostels at the expense of the shipping companies until such time as the companies can get rid of them in America or take them back to Russia.
I thank the Home Secretary for his explanation, but I did not like his expression—the unfortunate shipping companies. I think that the country is unfortunate, and I hope the Home Secretary will look into the problem once again so that it may be laid down definitely that shipping companies shall not be allowed to use this country for the dumping of aliens in that way.
The hon. Gentleman must forgive me. The transmigration shipping of aliens is a very profitable business to the shipping companies and to shipping generally. A very large amount of shipping is taken up by emigrants from Russia to various parts of the world, a large amount of which is done in British bottoms. They are transshipped here, that is all, but it is clear, and I have made it clear, that I cannot allow one of these men to be what the hon. Gentleman calls dumped on Great Britain. They are kept quite carefully where they cannot intermix with the British population at all, and they are at the risk and expense of the shipping companies.
The right hon. Baronet did not dwell very much upon the point of aliens coming here for revolutionary purposes. I have looked up the figures for the last quarter and I find the present Government admitted over 500 Russians to this country and over 1,000 Italians. If any restriction at all is going to be laid down against politicals from Russia and the countries surrounding Russia, the same restrictions must also prevail against Italian Fascisti. I should not like discrimination to be shown against those people who come with Socialist revolutionary tendency while the Home Secretary shuts his eyes to the admission of people from Italy and elsewhere who may be Fascisti. I am positive in my own mind, with some experience of this problem, that this country has little or nothing to fear with regard to revolutionary propaganda from abroad. I think it has been stated on both sides of the House to-night that revolutionary tendencies arise from the poverty of our own people, and that is the greatest grievance of all. Some hon. Members opposite seem to assume that to shut out aliens indiscriminately means that our own people will secure more work. I think the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary for Home Affairs will have found out already that there are some aliens on the Continent of Europe, particularly in glassware occupations, who could be allowed to enter to stimulate trade in this country. I leave the matter at that, except to say that it ill becomes this House of Commons or any party in the House to stir up any anti-alien feeling. The party represented on the benches opposite has been responsbile for centuries in building up an Empire within which there are peoples of scores of nationalities and of many colours, creeds and religions. I would remind hon. Gentlemen that when they go abroad they are aliens too, and if they desire freedom in other lands they must treat the alien in this country with due consideration. I trust that, if pressed to a Division, this House will give a majority in favour of the Amendment.
In view of the statement of the Home Secretary, particularly in the direction that he is not using his power for political purposes, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That this House approves the possession by the Home Secretary of full and sufficient authority to control alien immigration, and would deprecate any weakening of existing Regulations, in view of the present shortage of work and of houses in this country."
Housing in Rural Districts(Scotland)
I beg to move,
We have had many Housing Acts in the last few years, and much remedial legislation proposed for the housing conditions of our people, and I think both sides of the House recognise that that work is absolutely essential. What I ask is that when we refer to that necessary housing reform, we ought not to forget or neglect our country districts, because those country districts are the mainsprings of our national well-being. I have little time to elaborate what can best be done as regards this part of the problem. This question is of such importance to our country districts in Scotland that if we had a grant available for this particular purpose, an exceptional situation might usefully be met. We have had grants given for many objects, and I can conceive of no object more worthy of receiving a grant of public money than that of providing cottages for the farm workers in the country districts of Scotland.
Under the Wheatley Act this question cannot be properly remedied. We need to do more than the Wheatley Act proposes. If we could have an advance given which would enable public money to be given to enable these houses to be put up in districts where they are so urgently required, we should be doing good work for the people in those districts, and we should be advancing the well-being of the nation generally.
In the moment that is left—
It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
Supply
Again Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departmentssupplementary Estimates, 1924–25
Class VI
British Empire Exhibition
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question proposed on Consideration of Question,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £158,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of Match, 1925, for Expenditure in connection with British Government Exhibits and Sundry Displays at the British Empire Exhibitions, 1924 and 1925."
Question again proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £158,400, be granted for the said Service."
It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.