Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 180: debated on Tuesday 24 February 1925

House of Commons

Tuesday, February 24, 1925

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

PRIVATE BILLS (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Burgess Hill Water Bill.

Bill committed.

Gas Light and Coke Company Bill by Order),

Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Walsall Corporation Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Wolverhampton Corporation Bill (by Order),

Read a Second time, and committed.

Dundee Corporation and Water and Gas Order Confirmation Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Member Sworn

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath:

John Wells Wainwright Hopkins, esquire, Borough of St. Pancras (South-East Division:).

British Museum (Petition)

I beg to present an humble petition from the Trustees of the British Museum, humbly praying this Honourable House to grant them such further support towards enabling them to carry out the execution of the trusts reposed in them by Parliament for the general benefit of learning and useful knowledge as this House shall deem fit.—( King's Recommendation signified ); referred to the Committee of Supply.

Oral Answers to Questions

Trade and Commerce

Imports and Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the continued heavy excess of imports over exports has had the consideration of the Government; and, if so, whether any remedial measures are in contemplation?

I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the estimate of invisible exports and of the net trade balance published in the Board of Trade Journal on the 29th January. It is the policy of the Government to assist the revival of our export trade in every way practicable: but it would not be possible to discuss all the aspects of policy within the limits of a Parliamentary answer.

Bankruptcy Act, 1914 (Amendment)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the recommendations made by the committee 'which the Board of Trade appointed to consider and report what amendments of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914, recent experience has shown to be desirable whether he proposes to introduce the necessary legislation in the present Session to carry out these recommendations; and, if not, what course he proposes to pursue regarding them?

Subject to consideration of details, I am in general agreement with the recommendations of the Bankruptcy Committee, and I have given instructions for a Bill to be drafted, based on their Report. I cannot, however, say at present whether it will be possible to introduce the Bill during the present Session.

Joint Stock Companies

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation to amend the law dealing with registration of joint stock companies, to compel such companies to furnish proof of essential financial terms detailed in prospectus of registration, and to have actuarial certificates included before coming to the public for subscription in any new company?

If my hon. Friend cares to let me have a note of the proposals which he has in mind, I will see that they are brought to the attention of the Departmental Committee which has recently been appointed to consider what Amendments are necessary in the Companies Acts.

In view of the large number of the working classes who are affected at the present time by reason of the slackness of the law regarding joint stock companies, will the right hon. Gentleman take action immediately if I give him full details?

My hon. Friend has, perhaps, seen that I appointed a Committee to go into all the questions concerning these companies. The most practical course I can suggest is that my hon. Friend should send me the points he has in mind, and I will send them to the Committee.

Needles (French Customs Tariff)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the modifications recently made in the French customs tariff under which English needles will pay a much higher duty than has previously been the case, whereas German needles, which have hitherto been paying the maximum tariff, will in reality be more favoured on importation into France than similar needles from this country; and whether he will make representations to the French Government on this subject?

My attention has already been drawn to the proposed increases in the French duties on needles, and particulars have been forwarded to His Majesty's Embassy at Paris, with a view to such action as may be practicable if the Tariff Revision Bill is proceded with. There is no reason to anticipate that German needles imported into France will receive more favourable tariff treatment than similar goods of United Kingdom manufacture.

Is it not the fact that German needles are receiving snore favourable treatment under the conditions set out in the question?

No, Sir, I think not. At the present time we are receiving most-favoured-nation treatment and the lowest possible rate of duty.

Has the right hon. Gentleman made representations that we also propose to put on duties against these articles?

Questions

Safeguarding of Industries

asked the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to the procedure set out in the White Paper [Cmd. 2327], will he state what steps it is intended to take to prevent any industry in this country being prejudiced by abnormal importation of competing goods during the time occupied by the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade and until any duty of customs recommended by such Committee is approved by Parliament; and whether he will consider limiting the importation of such competing goods during this period to the average volume of the monthly import of such goods during the preceding five years?

I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer of the 17th February to the hon. Member for Penrith and Cockermouth, of which I am sending him a copy.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what will be the strength of the Committees he intends to appoint under the Safeguarding of Industries proposals; and what quorum he intends to fix?

It is intended that Committees should not consist of less than three or more than five members. I do not think it would be advisable to fetter them with elaborate rules relating to matters which they can be trusted to determine for themselves.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer to the last part of the question, as to the quorum he intends to fix?

I have given that information in the second part of my answer. If the hon. Member looks at the White Paper he will see that it is intended that the Committee should regulate their own procedure. That has been done in the past and it was the most practical course to adopt.

I want to make this quite clear. Will the Minister tell us upon what quorum he will act; what is the minimum number of members on whose advice he will act?

I was quite well aware what was the meaning of the question, and I think that my answer is plain. I am going to appoint the Committee and leave the detailed questions of procedure in their hands, relying on the fact that there are competent members on that Committee.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, before deciding whether to grant an inquiry under the new Safeguarding of Industries proposals, he will be prepared to give notice to and receive representations from all parties interested and not only those who are applying for the imposition of the duty?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on the 19th February to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, of which I am sending him a copy.

Would it not be fairer that all parties interested either in the imposition of, or the refusal to impose, a duty should receive notice at the same time?

No; I think not. I think that, following the precedent laid down on previous occasions, it would be very undesirable that T should publish the fact that certain industries were contemplating asking for an inquiry until I have decided whether or not there is a prima facie case. When there is a prima facie I will bring it to the notice of all concerned.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what countries are now suffering from depreciated exchanges; and in what countries the wages of labour and conditions of employment are inferior to those prevailing in this country?

The answer is somewhat long, and the hon. Member will perhaps allow me to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The countries whose currencies have a lower value relative to sterling than corresponds to their nominal gold equivalents, include the following: France, Belgium, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Czechslovakia, Turkey, Greece, Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania, Argentine, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, Peru and Japan. It is perhaps unnecessary for me to enumerate all the minor States in the same category.

With reference to the second part of the question, the international statistical data are insufficient to make possible the compilation of such a table as the hon. Member desires. Moreover, it will be readily appreciated that wages and other conditions vary considerably in different industries, so that even if it were possible to obtain a general average over a number of trades in each country, the figures so arrived at might afford little guide to the comparative wages and conditions in a particular industry in different countries.

17 and 19.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether, under the safeguarding of industries proposals, the right of cross-examination will be confined to members of the Committee; or whether it will be extended to counsel and representatives of the industries affected;

(2) whether an industry opposing an application for a duty under the safeguarding of industries proposals must be represented by counsel?

It is not proposed to require that industries either making or opposing applications shall be represented before the Committees by counsel. It is intended that counsel or other representatives of the parties; appearing before the Committee shall be allowed to cross-examine witnesses, subject to such rules of procedure as may be laid clown by the Committee in each particular case.

Will parties be given the right of combining together and of being jointly represented by counsel?

Yes, certainly. The hon. Member will remember that in the Debate I suggested that it would be very convenient if the chairman of the committee would so arrange.

also asked the President of the Board of Trade by what method the public will be notified that an industry has applied for an inquiry under the safeguarding of industries proposals?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) on the 19th February, of which I am sending him a copy. Announcement of the reference of any particular application to a Committee will be made in the Board of Trade Journal and the public Press.

May we know whether, and if so at what stage, this announcement will be made public?

Yes, Sir, when it has been decided to refer the case to a Committee.

If a question is put in this House as to whether any applications have been received, will an answer to such question be refused?

Yes, Sir, certainly, for the reasons which I have already given in answer to questions in this House and in answer to supplementary questions to-day.

Oil Pollution (Bird Destruction)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the suffering and loss of life to our wild sea and migratory birds and to fish by oil discharge from ships; whether he will, in conjunction with other Departments, consider what steps can be taken to remedy these conditions; and whether he will consider passing regulations for the compulsory installation of oil separators in all oil-driven vessels in the future?

Attention has for some time past been directed to the problems caused by the discharge of waste oil, and a special Act was passed in 1922. Owing to the operation of this Act conditions are better than they were. The British Act is necessarily limited to territorial waters, and the regulation or shipping outside those waters is a matter for international agreement. I hope that arrangements will be made for convoking an international conference to deal with this matter in the near future, and in these circumstances I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by considering proposals for further legislation of a purely national character.

May I ask whether any effective oil separator has been approved by the Board of Trade?

There has been a difference of opinion, which I dare say my hon. Friend knows, as to whether that is the best way of dealing with it, although there have been a number of cases where oil separators have been installed.

Germany (Shipbuilding)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state if the German Republic is subsidising the German shipbuilding; and, if so, to what extent?

I am informed that out of moneys provided for the relief of unemployment, 50 million marks have been set aside for the relief of unemployment in shipbuilding yards and for the maintenance of the German merchant marine, and from this fund loans will be granted to shipping companies for the purpose of building new sea-going vessels.

Enemy Action Claims

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the hardship experienced by various merchant seamen, who were detained in Germany prior to the out-break of war, in obtaining a decision as to their claims for compensation in this respect; whether he is in a position to state when such claims are likely to be decided; and will he explain the reason for the delay in settling these claims?

The claims referred to are assessed by an arbitrator, and in the case of merchant seamen whose claims are of a complicated character, the Controller of the Clearing Office has arranged, with a view to assisting the claimants, to bring a number of test cases and to conduct the proceedings before the arbitrator on their behalf. Delay has been caused by the resignation of the arbitrator, who is a neutral jurist, but immediately his successor has been appointed every possible step will be taken by the Clearing Office within the limit of its powers to expedite a settlement of these claims.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, taking the whole of the reparations claims, he will state the aggregate amount claimed and the net amount admitted by the Commission as applicable to the system of awards; and what is the average percentage received by each such claimant of the amount originally claimed by him or her?

It is not possible to state, even approximately, the total of the amounts claimed, since a large number of cases no sum is specified, while in other cases sums are claimed in respect of inadmissible items. The total of the assessment's of claims admitted against the £5,000,000 is approximately £12,500,000. It follows that an average percentage received by claimants of the amount originally claimed cannot be ascertained.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many claimants to the Reparations Claims Department have, on the one hand, received nothing at all and, on the other, have received less than £10?

10,348 claims, as distinguished from claimants, have been rejected, in addition to which 5,987 claims have not been proceeded with by the claimants. It would not be possible to prepare a statement of the number of claimants who have received less than £10, without an examination of all the claims involving much time and labour.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of belated cases now being dealt with by the Reparations Claims Department; the number decided; and the percentage of award hitherto made in respect of each such admitted claim?

The total number of belated claims at present being dealt with is 28,989, of which 23,587 have been admitted for payment and 3,810 have been rejected provisionally, making a total of 27,397 decided cases. In answer to the last part of the question, I have just explained that it is not possible to give the percentage which the amounts awarded to claimants bear to the amounts claimed.

Am I to understand that all these cases are definitely closed and that no more will be admitted in any circumstances?

Yes, Sir; that is so, with this exception—in the answer it will be seen that there is a certain number of claims out of the 28,900 which are still being gone into, and for which further information is required. But those that have been decided have been decided.

Has the claimant no right to appeal against this Committee's decision, although he may be able to prove a mistake on the part of the Committee while assessing the claim, either in regard to indemnifying the wrong man,——

War Material (Export)

asked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent, if any, were the firms exporting war material of all descriptions registered as exported from the United Kingdom to Esthonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, including Danzig, during the period from the 1st May, 1923, to 31st January, 1925, assisted under the Trade Facilities Act, and/or was payment guaranteed and, if so, the nature of the guarantee; and what was the proportion of the said material exported that was manufactured in the United Kingdom and abroad, respectively?

No assistance or guarantee of any kind is ever given under the Trade Facilities Acts for the manufacture or export of munitions of war.

British Army

Officers (Reduction of Pay)

21 and 22.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether any further reduction is contemplated in the pay of Army officers;

(2) whether any reduction or readjustment is contemplated in the pay of the other ranks of the Army?

It is not intended to apply the 5½ per cent. reduction of officers' pay to any other classes of pay than those already announced. As to the possibility of any reduction in the future, apart from this automatic reduction, I am not in a position to make any statement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the explanation given of the recent reduction was that the cost of living had fallen, whereas it has now risen, and will he consider a further readjustment?

Broughty Ferry Castle

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is now prepared to comply with the proposal which has been under his consideration for some considerable time that the Dundee City Council should be made a definite offer of Broughty Ferry Castle and Green to facilitate the negotiations being conducted by correspondence and personal representations?

I am advised that Broughty Ferry Castle and Green are still required for military purposes, and I regret, therefore, that I cannot authorise their being disposed of to the Dundee City Council.

Is this due to a change of policy; and, if so, why has the Dundee City Council been so discreditably treated in these negotiations?

I could not deal with that question within the limits of a Parliamentary answer.

Catterick Camp Extension

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the heavy demands made by Catterick Camp extensions in building labour and materials, to the detriment of civil building, he will use the Weir type of steel construction for part of the camp extensions, and so liberate building labour and materials for ordinary dwelling-houses which are so badly needed?

No new houses of the standard of accommodation provided by the Weir type of steel construction are being built at Catterick; the houses of this size required at Catterick are being provided by utilising and converting existing concrete huts, a considerable saving in building materials and labour being thereby effected.

Could not the form of construction employed in the Weir and other houses be applied to the erection of barracks, so as to relieve houses for civilians from the additional competition in regard to materials?

Nitrogen (Fixation)

asked the Secretary of State for War if any reports of the mission which was, shortly after the Armistice, sent to Oppau to inquire into German methods of fixing nitrogen from the air are available, and whether it is intended to publish them?

A report was made by the British mission which visited the chemical works at. Oppau shortly after the Armistice. It is not proposed to publish the report.

I have told the hon. Member it is not proposed to publish the report. Perhaps I should add "or any part of it."

Pay Records (Great War)

asked the Secretary of State for War why pay documents, showing amounts paid and due to be paid to men serving in the Army during the great War, have been destroyed, with the consequence that, in the absence of such records, his Department is unable to give any satisfactory reply to the claims of a number of excessive men who state that they have not received their war gratuity and other sums due to them; and whether, in view of this destruction of all pay records so soon after the War and during the lifetime of ex-service men and their dependants, and the consequent possible injustice to claimants, he will authorise payment of the sums claimed in all cases where his Department has no record to prove that payment has already been made?

On demobilisation or discharge soldiers had full liberty to question the accuracy of their accounts, and, where they did so, steps were taken to agree the balances with them. In July, 1920, a poster was exhibited in post offices and other places informing demobilised and discharged soldiers that if they had any questions to raise about their pay they should bring their claims to notice without delay. It was not until more than two years after the issue of the poster that instructions were given for the pay documents to be destroyed after having been kept for the prescribed period under the provisions of the Public Records Office Act, 1877. No documents were destroyed showing amounts due to be paid to men who served during the War. In the circumstances, I do not think any injustice is involved in refusing to entertain claims submitted at this late date. The docu- ments relating to the great War were very voluminous, and it was not possible to keep them indefinitely with duo regard to economy.

Deptford Market Site

asked the Secretary of State for War the present position of the negotiations for the purchase by the Department of the Deptford Cattle Market area; whether it is intended to purchase the entire site; and, if not, the extent of the area to be left under the control of the Markets Committee of the Corporation of London!

The question of the purchase price has to be referred to arbitration. The preparation of the case is proceeding, but there are important and difficult questions which require to be examined before the arbitration can take place. It is proposed to purchase the entire site of the cattle market; the last part of the question, therefore, does not arise.

Storeholders, Woolwich

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the decision of the Army Council to replace certain ex-service storeholders at ordnance depots by pre-War employés from Woolwich, they will discharge all over-age staff at. Wool-wish before posting them to other ordnance-depots where they turn an ex-service man out of a job?

There are only two storeholders at the Army Ordnance Depot, Woolwich, over 60 years of age, and the position of temporary storeholders elsewhere is not affected by their retention or discharge because their vacancies would be filled by pre-War employés who have a prior claim to the temporary ex-service men.

Accountancy

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Departmental Committee set up last July to consider the revision of Army accounting methods, as recommended by the Lawrence Committee, has yet reported; and whether the further Committee indicated on 25th July by his predecessor has yet been appointed?

The Committee on Processes of Accounting in the Army is about to submit an Interim Report, which will receive my early consideration. The further Committee on the questions of personnel connected with the amalgamation of the Royal Army Pay Corps and the Corps of Military Accountants has held several sittings, but cannot formulate conclusions until decisions have been given as to certain matters arising out of the Report of the first Committee.

When the Lawrence Report is considered with reference to its application, will the requirements of the Territorial Army be kept in mind, in view of the fact that the Lawrence Committee overlooked the Territorial Army?

Officers (Flying Qualifications)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether any record of officers qualified for service with the Flying Corps was available on the outbreak of War in 1914; and how many officers were recorded as being available?

Yes. Sir; the number so recorded for the military wing of the Royal Flying Corps was 212.

Camouflage (Training)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes to reopen the school of camouflage in order to train officers and men in this special branch of life saving?

The study of methods of concealment is part of the normal military training of all arms. I do not consider that a special school is necessary.

Is this work of camouflage carried on jointly with the authorities of the Air Force?

Scotland

Argyll Education Authority

asked the Secretary for Scotland at whose instance two additional members for the Cowal district have been added to the Argyll education authority; were the education authority themselves consulted, and was any public intimation given to the constituency as a whole before authorising the addition of the two members?

The Order of the 5th February, 1925, which increased by two the representation of the Cowal County District Electorial Division of the education area of the County of Argyll followed upon a representation made in December last by the town council of Dunoon. The answers to the second and third parts of the question are in the affirmative.

The usual procedure was followed of publishing in the papers a provisional order and everybody had an opportunity of seeing it.

Land Drainage (Grants)

asked the Secretary for Scotland with regard to the funds which were allocated for draining farms in Scotland, on what principle was the allocation of the grants out of these funds made; and why was it that Glenreasdell farm, in Kintyre, Tullich farm, in Kilmelford, and Low Ranaclean, near Campbelltown, Argyll, have all been refused grants?

In the allocation of grants from the limited funds available for land drainage preference was given to applications from areas where unemployment was reported to be most acute, and also, as far as possible, to cases in which two or more parties combined to carry out co-ordinated schemes. Apart from such preference, grants were distributed in such a way that as many districts as possible should receive such a share of the remaining funds as could be fully utilised in the employment of men out of work. It is regretted that these con- siderations prevented grants being made in the cases referred to by my hon. and learned Friend.

asked the Secretary for Scotland what is the total grant authorised this year for the land improvement and drainage unemployment relief scheme in Scotland; what was the total authorised in each of the past three years; what is the total of the amount already applied for this year; and how much of this has been refused

The total grant available for the winter of 1924–5 for the purpose of the scheme referred to by the hon. and gallant Member is £43,500. The grants authorised for the three previous winters were £21,850, £62,540 and £45,125 respectively. The total amount applied for this winter is £109,543. So far, applications for sums amounting to £56,903 have been refused.

In view of the large number of applications that have had to be refused will the right hon. Gentleman consider the necessity of obtaining more funds by which this work can be extended?

Sale of Liquor, Lerwick

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware of the dissatisfaction in the Lerwick district caused by the activities of alcoholic liquor dealers who have procured wholesale licences, although the town has by an overwhelming majority voted no licence; that one wholesaler convicted of shebeening has applied for and secured another licence in his wife's name; and will he consider an alteration of the Law to prevent such occurrences?

I have received from the Commissioners of Customs and Excise details of a case which is probably that referred to in the question. The issue or withdrawal of wholesale excise licences is not a matter in which I have any powers. I cannot give any undertaking as to legislation to amend the licensing laws.

Are we to understand that it is now the policy of His Majesty's Government to agree that democratic decisions should be flouted by an oligarchy?

Do not the circumstances set forth in the question demonstrate the futility of local option, and will not the right hon. Gentleman consider steps to repeal it?

Is it possible to prevent drink being supplied in Scotland or anywhere else, without Prohibition?

Fishing Industry

asked the Secretary for Scotland the amount that has been expended in grants and relief towards the harbours, motor boats, etc., for the purpose of developing the fishing industry in Scotland in each of the years 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923 and 1924?

As the answer to the question comprises a tabular statement of figures, I propose, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the particulars desired

(1) Harbours:

Development Fund.

Fishery Board for Scotland.

Loans.

Grants.

Grants.

£

£

£

1920

19,005

925

1921

23,534

407

2,135

1922

54,871

6,371

1923

14,847

1,150

2,438

1924

15,076

470

1,950

(2) Loans to fishermen for the purchase of boats and motor engines:

1921

£1,835

No payments were made in other years covered by the question.

(3) Herring guarantee, 1920. Purchase of cured herrings:

Total expenditure by the Government, £1,281,562; proceeds of sale of herrings, £640,425; net expenditure by the Government, £641,137.

(4) Loans to fishermen for the purchase of drift nets:

1924

£1,287

The above figures represent the actual expenditure in the calendar years in question.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will cause an inquiry to be made as to the possibility of securing a reduction in the price of nets and other gear supplied to the Scottish herring fishermen; and whether he is prepared to devote a proportion of the money granted by the last Parliament as a loan for these fishermen to this purpose:?

I do not at present consider that any good purpose would be served by an inquiry such as is suggested. I am not satisfied that the price of nets is excessive at the present time. The money granted by the last Parliament was for a scheme of loans to assist Scottish herring fishermen to purchase nets and gear, and I am not prepared to recommend that any of that money should be diverted into a subsidy for the purpose of reducing the price of nets and gear.

Is the right hon. gentleman aware that many of the fishermen at the present time cannot replace their gear owing to the high prices charged, also that the terms of the loan are such as to render it perfectly useless from a practical point of view, and does he not think that this money, which was granted to assist the fishermen, had better be used in some way so as to be of some benefit to the fishermen?

asked the Secretary for Scotland how much of the credit voted by Parliament for assisting fishermen to replace their lost and damaged gear has been used; whether it is proposed to continue it after the 31st March of this year; and whether he will waive the condition that the fishermen must themselves pay a proportion of the purchase price of the nets in cash?

Loans amounting t, £3,670 have been sanctioned for the purchase of herring drift nets. The answers to the second and third parts of the question are in the negative.

Law of Assessment

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the decision in the Court of Session, Edinburgh, of the 8th August last, in the action of suspension and interdict at the instance of the Etna Iron and Steel Company, Limited, v. Alexander Bryden, collector of parish council rates for the Parish of Dalziel, and where the Court decerned that under the 37th Section of the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1845, the complainer's works entered in the valuation roll at an annual rental of £1,396 were entitled to a deduction from the said rental of £4,653 13s. 6d., or, in other words, had no assessable value and were not liable to be rated for the support of the poor, education, and other charges leviable by the parish council of the parish, and of the Lord Ordinary's remarks, in giving the decision, to the effect that the conclusion to which he felt bound to come resulted in a reductio ad absurdum; and what steps he proposes to take to have this section of the Poor Law (Scotland) Act repealed or amended, so that the burden of Poor Law relief and charges for education may not be thrown back on the owners and occupiers of house property only?

My attention has been called to the case referred to, in which the conclusion of the Court was substantially as stated. The question of the repeal or amendment of Section 37 of the Act of 1845 will require to be considered in connection with any general measure of rating reform. I am hopeful that the present difficulty may be surmounted by negotiations following on My recent meeting with a deputation from the Association of Parish Councils.

Illegal Trawling

asked the Secretary for Scotland what instructions have been given to fishery cruisers when a poaching trawler refuses to disclose its identity, seeing the cruiser is not allowed to take any steps which is liable to damage the trawler?

It would not be expedient in the public interest to publish instructions given to the fishery cruisers. As stated in my reply to my hon. and learned Friend on the 17th of this month, I am examining the problem of securing identification of trawlers which are detected trawling illegally.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the case of Trawler No. 7, which was photographed on both sides within 20 feet of the Fishery Cruiser "Vigilant," and then, when it was brought to trial, they brought a sufficient number of gentlemen to satisfy the Sheriff Substitute of an alibi, notwithstanding the photograph? Is there any way, short of giving the trawler a gun that will knock a bit of a hole in her, to enable this poaching to be stopped?

I am aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers, and I am looking into the question.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has given consideration to the continuance of the prohibition to British trawlers to trawl in the Moray Firth while foreign fishermen are still permitted to trawl outside the 3-mile limit; if he is aware that the original reasons for the prohibition are no longer valid; and, under the circumstances, will he instruct that prompt measures be taken to remove this discrimination against British fishery interests?

The question of the continuance of the prohibition of British trawlers to trawl in the Moray Firth was considered by the recent Trawling (Scotland) Committee, which recommended that the prohibition should be maintained, but that measures should be taken to secure international recognition of the closure. The question of taking action on the Committee's recommendation is receiving my attention.

Lochboisda Le Pier

asked the Secretary for Scotland what steps the Government are now taking to have Lochboisdale pier reopened?

I regret that at the present time I can add nothing to the answers which I gave to the hon. Member on the 17th of this month.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I shall repeatedly raise this question in this House until he does something?

Are we to take it that the Secretary for Scotland and his Department will do nothing in a case where the people cannot leave the island or get on the island other than by this pier, which has been closed by the proprietor, and will the Government not take some action to build either a pier or a jetty, to enable the people to get on and off?

This is a privately-owned pier, and I have made certain offers, as I explained in a previous answer, to indemnify the proprietor against any damage to persons or property. That is as far as I have felt able to go.

In the meantime, is the Department not determined to take some action to protect these people from the arbitrary action of the proprietor closing this pier?

Will not the right hon. Gentleman take early into consideration the whole question of the piers in the Highlands, as it is impossible for the people to carry on life under the present circumstances?

Irish Prisoners, Peterhead

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that there are at present 28 prisoners in His Majesty's prison at Peterhead who have been sent from the Northern Government of Ireland; and if he will take steps to have them transferred to their own country, in order that friends may be allowed the privilege granted to all prisoners of visitation?

Thirty-five prisoners are at present detained at Peterhead on behalf of the Government of Northern Ireland. Any question regarding the future disposal of these prisoners is a matter for the Government and Parliament of Northern Ireland.

Seeing that these prisoners are under his jurisdiction, and that all prisoners in Scotland are entitled to have visitors at certain periods, and that these prisoners are refused that privilege owing to the distance between Ireland and this prison, will the right hon. Gentleman consider having negotiations with a view to the transfer of these prisoners, and the right of visitation being granted to them?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of having these 35 prisoners drafted into the Special Constabulary in Northern Ireland?

Will the right hon. Gentleman take care not to send prisoners out of British prisons into Ireland, for the last time we did it, it landed us into heavy damages?

Did not the reply of the right hon. Gentleman state that prisoners who are in Great Britain are not under the jurisdiction of this House and this Government, but only under that of Northern Ireland?

No. I said that any question with reference to these prisoners must be addressed to the Government of Northern Ireland.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman, in his official position, answerable to this House for prisons and the inmates of prisons in Scotland?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if, in the case of death happening to these prisoners, and they had a complaint to lodge—[ Laughter ]— I will say, in the event of anything happening in the way of bad treatment to those men, and they had a complaint, as every prisoner is entitled to have, to lodge against the Governor and afterwards to the Prison Commission, and if any hon. Member cared, after that, to raise it in this House, are we to assume that those prisoners in a Scotch prison, in the case of bad treatment, are not to have the right of having their grievances raised in the ordinary way?

That is a, very important question—so important that I think it should be put on the Order Paper.

I want to put this to you, Sir. I put down a definite question. The answer raises an entirely new point. With all due deference, the Secretary for Scotland has raised a question of urgent importance, upon which a pronouncement ought to be made at once.

That is the very reason why I am suggesting that a question on this point should be put down on the Order Paper, so that an answer, other than a supplementary answer, may be given.

I understand that there is one of these prisoners ill, and anything may happen between this and the date an answer is received. I think, on a question of urgency, it is the duty of Parliament to decide whether we have any control over those prisoners, and, in view of the answer, I want to raise the question now.

I am quite sure I am right. It is a matter of extreme importance. A formal question should be put down and a considered answer given. I recognise the importance of the matter.

The hon. Member's question was on the same point, which has arisen since the question was put, and must appear on the Order Paper. I suggest that the hon. Member should put it down in order to get a proper answer.

On the real point of substance, did the right hon. Gentleman's reply amount to this, that he has got prisoners in Scottish prisons for whose treatment and control not he, but some other Government is responsible? That is the point I should like to have cleared up.

These are the prisoners sent to Scotland, and taken charge of during their term of sentence. I am responsible, no doubt, for their health and general management, but I have nothing to do with regard to the length of sentence, or anything of that kind.

Questions

National Insurance

asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared either to recommend the extension of the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on National Health Insurance, or, alternatively, to set up a separate Commission with a view to a comprehensive inquiry being made into all forms of social insurance, and into the possibilities of fuller co-ordination?

No, Sir, it is not proposed to extend the terms of reference of a Commission constituted to deal with the particular question of National Health Insurance. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to what I said in reply to questions on this subject on the 16th February last.

Inter-Allied Debts

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the Secretary of State for India last Tuesday, in which he said that the British Note to France on the subject of their debt to us had not been received as it ought to have been, represents the views of the Government?

My Noble Friend's speech is quite inaccurately represented in the question. His answer was a general one, not dealing with France individually, or even particularly, but covering the reception of the Balfour proposal by all the allied and associated nations.

May I ask whether the last Note to France represents the final attempt of the Government to collect these debts, and, if not, when will some other steps be taken to convince France that the Government is in earnest that we want some of this money paid?

That is a most interesting point, but has nothing to do with this question.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Italian Government has informed him what the obstacle is which prevents her from carrying out at once, instead of in the course of the next few months, her stated intention to initiate discussions with the British Government on the subject of her debt of £550,000,000 to this country?

I think it is natural that the Italian Government should require a reasonable time, after the recent discussion, to consider what proposals it should make.

Secretary for Scotland

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to raise the status of the Secretary for Scotland to that of a Secretary of State?

I received a deputation on this subject yesterday from the Convention of Royal Burghs, and have promised that I will examine the question without delay.

In the meantime, can the Prime Minister give the House an assurance that he does, at any rate, consider that Scotland is worthy of a Secretary of State

Pensions (Increase) Act, 1924

asked the Prime Minister what action, if any, he proposes to take to amend the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1924?

I will answer this question when I answer Question No. 50 and other questions at the same time.

My question does not deal with the Old Age Pensions Act in any shape or form.

On a point of Order. When any Minister is called upon to answer a question, is he entitled t3 defer his reply to a later question? Is it not the custom of this House that when an answer is given to several questions, the Minister takes the first question called upon?

I hope we need not make a point of principle. Apparently, by an error, notice of this question had riot reached me from the Prime Minister's Office. If the hon. Member will put it clown again, I will give him an answer, although I think the question is covered by the answer to the other questions.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that under the Old Age Pensions Acts a pensioner after three months' treatment in an institution infirmary becomes disqualified for pension; and whether he is prepared to amend the Acts so as to remove this disqualification?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether His Majesty's Government will amend the Old Age Pensions Acts in order to remove the disqualification of a pensioner in respect of the receipt of a pension after treatment in an institution infirmary for three months where such patient continues an inmate of such institution, and that such pension be paid to the guardians so long as the pensioner is chargeable?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider an amendment of the Old Age Pensions Act to remove the disqualification of a pensioner from the receipt of a pension after treatment in an institution for three months in the case where such patient continues as an inmate of the institution and to enable the pension to be paid to the guardians for so long as the pensioner is chargeable?

I will answer these questions and, if I may, No. 45, and I would refer the hon. Members to the answer given on the 12th February to similar questions by the hon. and gallant Member for Leicester South (Captain Waterhouse) and the hon. Member for the Bedwellty Division (Mr. C. Edwards).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the recent proposals were introduced by the previous Government, they were very strongly criticised by members of the Conservative party as inadequate, and as being a breach of pledges given by all parties?

Liquor Prohibition (United States)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that over 90,000 cases of alcoholic liquor were landed at St. John's, Newfoundland, during the two months following 12th November last, most of which was of British origin and destined for the American market; and will he take steps to control the ultimate destination of exports of whisky as a condition of granting the rebate of 3d. a gallon?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the nega- tive, I am not prepared to take the action suggested.

Do not the circumstances disclosed in the hon. Member's question demonstrate that prohibition in America is as futile as local option in Scotland?

Gold Standard

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what position he takes as to the immediate or near acceptance of the gold standard; and if, before finally coming to a decision, he will give opportunities for traders and manufacturers to lay their views before him as also for the House of Commons to discuss the same?

I do not think it would be in the public interest for me to add at present to what I have already said on this subject.

Will facilities be given for the consideration of this matter before any definite action is taken?

I think, on the whole, the House will be well advised to leave the initiative in this difficult matter to the Government, and to reserve to itself all the rights and opportunities of criticism.

Cottage Property (Sales)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will institute legislation to enable the easier distribution to beneficiaries in small estates, especially in respect of cottage property, as by the terms of the Rent Restrictions Act the uncertainty of possession makes the sale of such property extremely difficult by executors?

It is not at present contemplated that the Rent Restriction Acts should be amended in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend, but my right hon. Friend will give the matter further consideration.

If I bring to the hon. Gentleman's notice details of the great difficulties which are arising at the present time, as a result of the tardiness of the distribution of these estates, will he take immediate action in respect of the matter?

Silver Coinage

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any progress is being made with regard to the plan for designing a new and more artistic set of reverses for the silver coins of the realm?

No change has been decided on, nor could any new design be introduced until after the issue of an Order-in-Council. It is the normal practice of the Mint to experiment with new designs from time to time, and these are submitted for consideration to a standing Committee which acts in an advisory capacity in connection with the artistic side of the work of the Mint.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether that form of words means that the question is to be taken into consideration or whether it is not? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer !"]

Apart from the point of the æstlietic and artistic value of the coins will the right hon. Gentleman consider having the portrait of himself in profile on the reverse side? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order !"]

In reply to the first supplementary question, I do not think I could clarify the words that have been read. It is the perfectly normal practice for the Mint to experiment in designs, and I have no doubt they will take all suggestions into consideration. Nothing has been decided upon up to the present.

Gold (Imports from the United States)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of gold imported into Great Britain from the United States in December and January, respectively; and, if there was any importation, who received the credit for this gold?

The amount imported in December was £2,623,103, and in January £1,328,301. Of these consignments £2,055,839 and £997,607 respectively were in transit. I have no information as to the last part of the question.

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Income Tax received through quarterly assessments for the financial year ending 5th April, 1924, and the approximate cost of assessment and collection of such tax?

The approximate amount of Income Tax collected in the year 1923–24 from manual wage-earners assessed quarterly was £1,300,000. The cost of assessment and collection in the case of these taxpayers is necessarily high, and in the year in question it is estimated that it amounted to about one-third of the yield.

Company Registration

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the case of a limited company registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, and described as an investment trust, which is advertised as offering 7 per cent. interest without deduction of Income Tax; whether he is aware that, being so registered, it is enabled to pay its dividends without deduction of Income Tax; and whether he will consider the introduction of such legislation as will place this company in the matter of taxation in the same position as other investment trust companies?

If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me such particulars as will enable me to identify the case to which he refers I will gladly cause inquiry to be made and will communicate the result to him in due course.

Currency (Genoa Resolutions)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether His Majesty's Government will take steps to secure the early assembly of an international financial conference to consider the question of putting into operation the Genoa Resolutions on currency and with a view to the establishment, by agreement, of the currency systems of the world upon a sound, economic and stable basis?

The Genoa Resolutions contemplated a meeting of the central banks as a necessary preliminary to any monetary convention. I hope that the occasion for such a meeting will arise before long; but I do not think the moment is yet opportune.

Arcos, Limited (Government Publications, Advertisements)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the amount of £62 10s., which he stated was to be paid by Arcos, Limited, of Soviet House, for advertising on Government publications issued by His Majesty's Stationery Office, has been received

His Majesty's Stationery Office has received in cash to date £42 10s. of the £62 10s. due in respect of the advertising space on Government publications let to Arcos, Limited. The balance of £20 has not yet been paid over by the advertising agents who held the contracts from the Stationery Office for this space, and through whom the space was let to Arcos, Limited.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the very fact that he has not received the money up to December last does not cancel the contract to which he has referred, and which is going on until 30th June?

Are there no other advertisers who have not yet been paid 100 per cent. of their accounts that were due?

There is not any question of cancelling a contract at the moment, because Arcos, Limited, is not in default. It is entirely due to the omission of the agents to pay. The £40 that has been paid has been received direct from Arcos.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this firm has done over £50,000,000 worth of business and has fulfilled all its obligations?

Any question as to the merits of the decision had better be deferred to the next question.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why His Majesty's Government decided not to renew the contract entered into last year with Messrs. Arcos, Limited, Soviet House, 49, Moorgate Street, London, E.C. 2, to advertise Russian raw materials on the backs of Government publications for the Department of Overseas Trade, seeing that the raw materials advertised are required by British industries and in no way compete with the sale of goods produced in Great Britain?

His Majesty's Government are not willing that advertisements from a firm described as the sole purchasing and selling agency of a Government which has not met its obligations towards British subjects should he admitted in British official publications.

May I ask if the hon. Gentleman thinks that this is the method as suggested by the King in his Speech of continuing friendly relations with this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order !"] May I, Mr. Speaker, amend that Supplementary Question, as I have no desire to be disrespectful to you or to the House, and ask my hon. Friend if he thinks this is in accordance with the paragraph in the King's Speech——

Most Gracious Speech—anything you like—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order !"]—which hoped that friendly relations between the two countries would be continued.

Well, Sir, I look at it in this way: A large number of British subjects, innocent people, have lost their property and their savings, owing to confiscation or the repudiation of obligations by the Russian Government. If I allow these advertisements to be put in official publications, and small manufacturers are induced to embark upon trade with the Russian Government, and their money is lost by confiscation or repudiation, I should feel that these firms could complain, and would regard me as blameworthy for allowing these advertisements to appear. Their complaint would be sound, and I think the majority of this House and the country will support me in my view.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these advertisers are advertising goods which do not compete with British trade, and which are necessary for British trade, and that every penny has been paid for the goods purchased from this country by that company?

Motor-Cars (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take into consideration the advisability of progressively reducing the tax on motor-cars in accordance with their normal depreciation?

I have been asked to reply. I assume that my hon. Friend refers to an extension of the rebate at present allowed in the case of pre-1913 engines. The ground for this rebate is not the age of the engine, but the type of construction which gives a considerably higher rating than more modern engines developing the same horse power. The concession was made in the Finance Act. 1920, in order not to hamper the continued use of cars of obsolete type at a time when the supply of new cars was not equal to the demand. I have already considered the suggestion contained in my hon. Friend's question, and I am unable to adopt it.

Ex-Service Men (Post Office)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the ex-service established manipulative grades of the Post Office, as regards entrance fees to examinations, severity of the examinations, and the considerably higher standard of education demanded for similar appointments, have been disadvantageously placed in comparison with ex-service temporary civil servants; that the examination held on 4th September, 1923, for appointment to the grade of clerical class (male), General Post Office, was the sole means of advancement for ex-service men of the established manipulative grades of the Post Office; and whether, in view of the findings of the Southborough Committee and the small number of men concerned, he will offer clerical appointments to all men who obtain over 50 per cent. marks in that examination?

I have been asked to answer this question. Members of the established manipulative grades of the Post Office have for many years had opportunities of securing clerical appointments, and the arrangements proposed for the ex-service temporary clerks will not reduce those opportunities. There is no direct comparison between the claims of the manipulative grades of the Post Office and the ex-service temporary clerks; but in order that the Post Office staff might have no ground for suggesting that they have been unfairly treated by comparison the Southborough Committee recommended that their claims should be sympathetically considered by a committee of the Post Office Whitley Council which had already been appointed. Until that committee has issued its report, it is not possible to say how many of the candidates in the September, 1923, competition are likely to receive clerical appointments.

Mining Royalties

asked the Secretary for Mines what is the average amount paid to royalty owners in respect of the coal, iron ore and other materials used in the production of one ton of steel?

The average royalty on a ton of coal is about id., and it takes between three and four tons of coal to make a ton of steel; but I do not know the average amount paid to royalty owners on the other minerals used in its production.

Coal Industry

Wages per Ton and Output

asked the Secretary for Mines the wages cost per ton of coal in 1913 and at the present time; what was the output per person in 1913 and at the present time; and whether he can give the House any comparable figures as to cost and output in the German coalfield?

In 1913 the average wages cost per ton was 6s. 10½'d., the average output per manshift in that year is not recorded, but in June, 1914, it was 20·32 cwts. The corresponding figures for the last quarter of 1924 were 13s. 1d. and 17·74 cwts. There are no official figures for the German coalfields, but various estimates have been made by the coal-owners and miners in the Ruhr, and other authorities, of the pre-War and present costs and output in that coalfield. For wages cost per ton in 1913 these estimates range from 6s. 4d. to 6s. 8d.; for July, 1924 (since when there has been an advance in wages of about 9 per cent.) they range from 8s. 2d. to 9s. 2d. The output per manshift is estimated at 18A cwts. in 1913; for July, 1924, the estimates vary from 16¾ to 17½ cwts. In both countries underground hours are shorter than before the War. Here they are seven instead of eight; in the Ruhr, eight instead of eight-and-a-half.

Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman any explanation to give the House as to the considerable reduction in output between 1914 and the present time, which is largely responsible for the additional cost?

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that coal, which at the pit head is 19s. 6d. a ton, is sold in Kensington at £3 a ton?

Retail Prices (London)

asked the Secretary for Mines what was the average pit-head price for coal sold for domestic use in London during the month of January; and whether it is proposed to take any action to ensure the people of London obtaining coal at a lower price and of better quality?

Particulars are not available of the average pit-head price of household coal separately from other coal, but it is appreciably higher than the average price of all kinds. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain G. Garro-Jones) on the 17th February.

Coking and By-Products (Profits)

asked the Secretary for Mines the amount of profits made in this country from coking and by-products from coal for the years 1922, 1923 and 1924?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in postponing the question. I regret that this information is not available.

Accidents

asked the Secretary for Mines the number of accidents in mines for each year from 1900 to 1924, the number of fatal accidents for these same years, the number of accidents involving more than 10 persons, and the place of these accidents for these same years?

As the reply involves a statistical statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The information sought is given in the Allowing statements:

( a ) STATEMENT showing the number of fatal accidents and the number of non-fatal accidents, disabling the persons injured for more than seven days, at mines in Great Britain and Ireland under the Coal Mines Act during the years 1900 to 1924.) STATEMENT showing the number of fatal accidents and the number of non-fatal accidents, disabling the persons injured for more than seven days, at mines in Great Britain and Ireland under the Coal Mines Act during the years 1900 to 1924.

Year.

No. of Fatal Accidents.

No. of Non-fatal Accidents.

1900

962

Information not available.

1901

951

1902

919

1903

1,036

1904

1,017

1905

963

1906

1,065

1907

1,162

1908

1,138

141,562

1909

1,182

152,834

1910

1,242

158,565

1911

1,212

166,153

1912

1,151

150,217

1913

1,220

176,629

1914

1,182

158,541

1915

1,209

Information not available.

1916

1,267

1917

1,332

1918

1,201

1919

1,089

117,154

1920

1,060

116,930

1921 *

742

86,145

1922†

1,026

185,015

1923†

1,151

211,598

1924†

1,127‡

Information not yet available.

* In consequence of the national stoppage of work at coal mines, almost all the mines were idle for about three months in 1921.

† Great Britain only.

‡ Provisional figure.

( b ) LIST of Accidents involving the death of more than 10 persons.) LIST of Accidents involving the death of more than 10 persons.

Date of Accident.

Name of Mine and Situation.

Number of Persons Killed.

24th May, 1901

Universal, Glamorgan

81

3rd September, 1902

McLaren, Monmouth

16

21st January, 1905

Elba, Glamorgan

11

10th March, 1905

Cambrian, Clydach Vale, Glamorgan

33

11th July, 1905

National, Glamorgan

119

14th October, 1906

Wingate Grange, Durham

25

20th February, 1908

Washington, "Glebe," Durham

14

4th March, 1908

Hiunstead, S. Staffordshire

25

18th August, 1908

Maypole, Lancashire

75

16th February, 1909

West Stanley, Durham

168

29th October, 1909

Darran, Glamorgan

27

11th May, 1910

Wellington, Cumberland

136

21st December, 1910

Hutton, Lancashire

344

9th July, 1912

Cadeby Main, Yorkshire

88

7th February, 1913

Rufford, Nottinghamshire

14

3rd August, 1913

Gadder, Lanark

22

14th October, 1913

Senghenydd, Glamorgan

440

30th May, 1914

Wharnclide Silkstone, Yorkshire

12

13th August, 1916

Woodhorn, Northumberland

13

12th January, 1918

Podmore Hall, (Minnie Pit), N. Staffordshire

155

9th July, 1918

Stanrigg and Arbuckle, Lanark

19

13th July, 1922

East Plean, Stirlingshire

12

5th September, 1922

Whitehaven (Haig Pit), Cumberland

39

28th July, 1923

Maltby Main, Yorkshire

27

25th September, 1923

Redding (No. 23 pit), Stirlingshire

40

Raw Coal (Scientific Treatment)

asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that, by processes of low temperature carbonisation, large quantities of oil and other marketable commodities can be extracted from coal; and whether, in view of the serious position of the coal industry in this country at the present time, his Department will frame a scheme for the scientific treatment of raw coal?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on the 10th February to a similar question by my Noble Friend the Member for Shrewsbury (Viscount Sandon).

Miners' Welfare Fond

asked the Secretary for Mines whether the Government propose to extend the period of the operation of the allocation of ld. per ton upon the annual output of saleable coal in Great Britain to the Miners' Welfare Fund for a further five years?

STATEMENT SHOWING THE NUMBER OF BATHS PROVIDED AT COAL MINES IN GREAT BRITAIN

District.

Name of Colliery.

Number and kind of Baths provided for general use.

Northumberland

* Benwell "Charlotte"Benwell "Charlotte"

30

Shower.

* EllingtonEllington

90

Shower.

37

Shower.

* NewbigginNewbiggin

2

Slipper.

Seghill

14

Shower.

14

Plunge.

Lancashire and Cheshire

Chanters Nos. 1 and 2

66

Shower.

Gibfield Arley

42

Shower.

Reedley

30

Spray.

Victoria (Howe Bridge)

20

Shower.

Yorkshire, South

Barnborough

40

Spray.

Corton Wood

40

Foot and Shower (in course of erection).

80

Shower.

Manvers Main

40

Shower (in course of erection).

80

Shower (in course of erection).

* TreetonTreeton

88

Shower.

* Wath MainWath Main

8

Shower.

Wharucliffe Silkstone Nos. 1 and 4

6

Slipper.

Staffordshire, North

Parkhouse Nos. I, 2 and 3

6

Shower.

Kent

* ChisletChislet

76

Shower.

South Wales and Monmouthshire.

Deep Navigation

76

Shower.

Graig Merthyr and Cefn Drin (Slants)

6

Ordinary.

Fife and Clackmannan

Glen Graig

20

Spray.

Wellesley

84

Shower.

Lanarkshire

Douglas Castle

20

Spray.

* Installed with the aid of a grant the Miners' Welfare Fund Scheme. Installed with the aid of a grant the Miners' Welfare Fund Scheme.

Pit-Head Baths

further asked the Secretary for Mines how many pit-head baths are now in use in Great Britain, and at which collieries; and how many pit-head bath schemes have been promoted in connection with the miners' welfare schemes, and at which collieries?

I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT, giving the names of 21 collieries which have reported six or more baths for workmen as having been provided, or being in course of erection, on the 31st December, 1924. Allocations from the Miners' Welfare Fund were made in respect of six of these installations. Allocations have also been made from the Miners' Welfare Fund in respect of pit-head bath schemes at seven other collieries, the names of which I am also circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the statements:

Statement showing the number of pithead bath schemes for which grants have been allocated from the Miners' Welfare Fund, but which have not yet been completed and have not been included in the returns for 1924:

District.

Name of Colliery.

Yorkshire, South

Nunnery, Orgreave, Barnsley Main, Tinsley Park, Robroyd, Maltby Main.

Durham

Boldon.

Questions

Unemployment (Clutton, Somerset)

asked the Minister of Transport why the Rural District Council of (Hutton, where there is more unemployment than in any other rural district in Somerset, has been unable to obtain grants of more than 50 per cent, towards the provision of work for the unemployed, whereas neighbouring districts have received grants of 75 per cent.; and whether he will secure more liberal treatment for future applications from the Rural District Council of Clutton?

The normal grants made in respect of works expedited for the relief of unemployment are at the rate of 50 per cent., and in this respect the Clutton Rural District Council has received the same treatment as the neighbouring districts. The grants of 75 per cent. referred to by my hon. Friend were made not in respect of works initiated in view of the state of employment but in respect of applications submitted by rural district councils desirous of availing themselves of the special assistance provided for the improvement of important roads in rural areas. In view of the limited funds available, it has been impossible to deal with every scheme brought forward by rural district councils, and consideration of a large number of applications, including those submitted by the Clutton Rural District Council, has had to be deferred. It is proposed, however, to consider these applications in connection with any further funds which may become available.

Notices of Motion

Wages (Instability and I Rregularity)

I beg to give notice that on this day fortnight I shall call attention to the Instability of and Irregularity of Wages, and move a Resolution.

Blackmail

I beg to give notice that on this day fortnight I shall call attention to the present law as regards Blackmail, and move a Resolution.

Mental Hospitals

I beg to give notice that on this day fortnight I shall call attention to the conditions in Mental Hospitals, and move a Resolution.

Coal (Scientific Treatment)

I beg to give notice that on this day fortnight I shall call attention to the need for Scientific Treatment of Coal, and move a Resolution.

Bills Presented

Rent and Mortgage Interest Bill,

"to consolidate, amend, and extend enactments relating to rent and recovery of possession, and to the rate of interest on and the calling in of certain securities, and to make further provision with respect thereto, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. MARDY JONES; supported by Mr. Broad, Mr. Charleton, Mr. Connolly, Mr. Gibbins, Mr. Kelly, Mr. Mackinder, Mr. Montague, Mr. George. Hall, Mr. Dunnico, Mr. David Grenfell and Mr. Sexton; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 13th March, and to be printed. [Bill 76.]

Statutory Gas Companies (Electricity Supply Powers) Bill,

"to facilitate the supply of electricity by statutory gas companies," presented by Mr. CLARRY; supported by Sir Henry Cautley, Mr. Clayton, Major Co/fox, Sir Henry Cowan, Major George Davies, Sir Ellis Hume-Williams, Mr. Haydn Jones, Mr. Lougher, Brigadier-General Makins, Mr. Rentoul, and Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 77.]

Housing Bill,

"to amend the Law relating to Housing," presented by Mr. RHYSDAVIES; supported by Mr. Arthur Greenwood, Mr. Viant, Mr. William Thorne, and Mr. Windsor; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 20th March, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]

Local Legislation Committee

Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Local Legislation Committee in Session 1924 be referred to the Committee.—[ Sir Thomas Robinson. ]

Selection (Unopposed Bill Committees (Panel))

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had selected the following Ten Members to be the Panel to serve on Unopposed Bill Committees under Standing Order 105: Commander Bellairs, Major Birchall, Captain Foxcroft, Mr. Grant, Mr. George Hall, Mr. Hayes, Sir George Hume, Sir Philip Pilditch, Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay, and Mr. George Thorne.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899 (Panel))

reported from the Committee of Selection; That, in pursuance of the provisions of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, they had selected the following Twenty-five Members to form the Parliamentary Panel of Members of this House to act as Commissioners: Sir John Baird, Sir George Berry, Sir Samuel Chapman, Sir Henry Craik, Mr. Ford, Mr. Hardie, Vice-Admiral Sir Arthur Henniker Hughan, Sir Harry Hope, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Mr. Kidd, Mr. Kirkwood, Mr. MacKenzie Livingstone, Mr. MacAndrew, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Mr. MacIntyre, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Maxton, Mr. Rosslyn Mitchell, Mr. Sandeman, Mr. Skelton, Sir Alexander Sprot, Major Steel, Mr. James Stuart, Mr. Frederick Thomson, and Mr. MacLean Watson.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Chairmen's Panel) (Parliament Act, 1911)

reported from the Committee of Selection; That, in pursuance of Section 1, Sub-section (3), of The Parliament Act, 1911, they had appointed Mr. Short and Mr. Turton from the Chairmen's Panel, with whom Mr. Speaker shall consult, if practicable, before giving his certificate to a Money Bill.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee A

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A: Major Ropner and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Murdoch Macdonald, and Dr. Simms.

further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Agricultural Rates (Additional Grant) Continuance Bill): Major Wheler and Mr. Cecil Wilson; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Riley and Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.

further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Northern Ireland Land Bill): Colonel Sir William Allen, Mr. Buchanan, Captain Charles Craig, Captain Dixon, Mr. Dunnico, Sir Charles Falls, Mr. John, Sir William Joynson-Hicks, Mr. McConnell, Sir Malcolm Macnaghten, Mr. Maxton, Mr. Moles, Major Owen, Lord Eustace Percy, and Mr. David Reid.

Standing Committee B

further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee B: Mr. Attlee, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Beckett, Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Buxton, Mr. Charles Edwards, Mr. Fenby, Mr. William Greenwood, Mr. John Guest, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Frederick Hall, Mr. Hanbury, Major Samuel Harvey, Mr. Haslam, Captain Robert Henderson, Mr. Thomas Henderson, Colonel Sir Arthur Holbrook, Lieut.-General Sir Arthur Holland, Lieut.-Colonel Horlick, Mr. Hurd, Sir Edward Iliffe, Mr. Jacob, Lieut.-Colonel James, Mr. Jephcott, Captain Loder, Major-General Sir Richard Luce, Captain Macdonald, Mr. Neil Maclean, Lieut.-Colonel Mason, Sir Frank Nelson, Mr. Penny, Colonel Perkins, Captain Geoffrey Peto, Mr. Radford, Mr. Rawson, Mr. Ritson, Mr. Rye, Viscount Sandon, Mr. Scrymgeour, Mr. Geoffrey Shaw, Colonel Sinclair, Mr. Benjamin Smith, Mr. Stephen, Lord Colum Crichton-Stuart, Captain Styles, Sir Wilfrid Sugden, Mr. Trevelyan Thomson, Lieut. Colonel Dalrymple White, Mr. C. P. Williams, and Sir Samuel Hill-Wood.

further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the British Sugar (Subsidy) Bill, the Importation of Pedigree Animals Bill, and the Agricultural Returns Bill): Mr. A. V. Alexander, Sir Henry Cautley, Colon-1 Courthope, Captain Garro-Jones, Sir John Gilmour, Mr. William Graham, Mr. Guinness, Mr. Hannon, Mr. Lamb, Mr. Neville, Sir Douglas Newton, Mr. Shepperson, Mr. Thurtle, Mr. Edward Wood, and Mr. Wright.

further reported from the Committee: That they had agreed to the following Resolution, which they had directed him to report to the House:—

That, after a Bill has been under consideration in Standing Committee, no application for changes in the composition of that Committee in respect of that Bill shall be entertained by the Committee of Selection.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Trade Facilities [Money]

Considered in Committee. [ Progress, 19th February. ]

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

Question again proposed,

"That it is expedient to amend the Trade Facilities Acts, 1921 to 1924—

I believe this to be the most, convenient stage of the proceedings on this matter at which to offer a few Observations, if only for the following reasons, that observations which are made before the Bill is finally cast into shape have more hope of fruition than those which are made at a subsequent time and after the Bill has taken form. This is a subject which the House ought not to allow to pass lightly without consideration, as this is a very experimental region of legislation and administration. I think nothing like it has ever been tried on so large a scale before. Nevertheless it is still in the region of an experiment, although I believe there is very little difference of opinion amongst. Members of the House that up to the present the experiment has proved a success. It is a matter which particularly we ought to treat with a great deal of deliberation. The first question which I want to raise in connection with the form of the Resolution is a very direct matter, and that is the amount which has been taken at-the present time by this Resolution for the expansion of the work of the Trade Facilities Committee. Hitherto the policy has been to go on making small steps in the amount devoted to the work of the Committee. When he introduced the Money Resolution, the Financial Secretary told us quite freely that he would have no hesitation, should any necessity be shown, in coming to the House and the Committee for a further allocation of the guarantees in the course of the period that has been taken for the administration of the work of the Committee.

My point on that is that, to some extent, the useful work which is being done by the Committee may be retarded by the very small margin which is always kept in hand to carry on work in this way. The public at large have seen that there is only so much money, which is a small amount to be used under the guarantees and that gives them an impression that it is almost too late for them to apply because there is not enough going for them and particularly for any big new undertaking. I believe it might conduce to the enlargement of the work of the Committee—which I believe nearly all sections of the House desire to see continued—if the Minister took his courage a little more into his hands and moved at once for a more considerable extension of the amount of guarantees to be granted. We have some confidence that sooner or later the amount will be increased, and I suggest there would be an advantage in making the extension forthwith.

When I am advocating the allocation of a larger amount I feel it is appropriate that I should say a word in answer to a criticism which has been advanced against the policy of the scheme on the ground of its undue effect, upon national credit. If I am not wrong" -I believe this criticism has been mostly advanced from the Government Benches opposite and I associate with it the name of the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir Fredric Wise). It is quite true that this policy does, to a certain extent, increase the supply of Government security and it, does diminish the demand for Government securities by satisfying that, demand. These are textbook propositions which nobody will venture to deny. I should very much doubt, however, whether the issues under the Trade Facilities Scheme merely take off any of the investors to any appreciable extent who normally invest in these great issues with which we are now concerned, that is, issues in connection with conversions.

I will mention one single circumstance in support of that view and it is that as a matter of fact a very small proportion of the issues guaranteed under the Trade Facilities Scheme ever come to public issue at all, because they are taken up by Government Departments, by banks, and in other ways off the market and not on the market. A very small proportion of total issues under the Trade Facilities Scheme comes on to the market and they do not absorb the public demand with which we are principally concerned under conversion. The obvious reply is that you do not adversely affect the credit of the country by any borrowing which is borrowing prudently made for a productive purpose. Borrowing for unproductive purposes is a dead weight, but when you borrow for a purpose that is going to increase the wealth of the country you are not diminishing but increasing your credit. Credit is based upon the taxable capacity of the country. If you increase your resources by a prudent scheme of production, you are increasing the taxable capacity and its credit. I know it will take a reasonable run of time, but I should say that this scheme prudently administered, as I am persuaded that it has been, has not added a fresh weight to our credit but has relieved the burden upon it.

I agree that this is a most important aspect of the scheme, and in this connection I am going to ask the Financial Secretary whether he cannot help us to meet criticisms against the scheme on the, ground that it burdens credit by giving us the means of knowledge as to exactly what effect it does have upon credit from time to time. The working off of the guarantee is proceeding de die in diem. As the scheme proceeds from time to time it requires a statement as to how things stand as regards the repayment of the loans that have been made in order that we may know what the contingent burden is upon the Exchequer at any given time. I am asking whether the Minister cannot see his way, when publishing the returns of the guarantees made, to give us a return of the total outstanding contingent liability. It would enable us to have a clearer judgment if he would include in that information details as to the future position, because to understand our position from the point of view of credit we should understand what the future layout is as regards the loans. We want information as to the weighted average of the length of the loans to enable us to judge what the future burden on the credit of the country is likely to be.

4.0 P.M.

I do not wish to over-emphasise the disadvantages of this scheme, being so fully convinced as I am that even if it were to place a considerable burden on our credit that burden will be profitably undertaken in order to secure very substantial benefits. It is really the only scheme operated by the Government which tackles the unemployment question in a wholesome and fundamental manner, by finding employment of the unemployed in their own occupations in order to tackle that greatest of national evils by providing not artificial and unprofitable employment, but by stimulating normal employment of men and women in their own activities. In order to confer that great benefit upon the country, I think it would be well worth while placing a very much larger burden upon the credit of the country than this scheme is ever likely to place upon it. In what remains for me to say, I may have an observation or two to make which may seem, not to be critical, but to be by way of comment upon the work of the Advisory Committee. Let me, at this point, bear my own small tribute to the most invaluable work which has been done throughout in administering this scheme by the Advisory Committee of the Treasury. Gentlemen of the very highest experience, knowledge, and capacity, whose time, as we all know, is of considerable value to themselves, have placed it without stint at the service of their country and the Government in order to carry out this useful work, and I am sure every Member of the Committee will have been only surprised at the extraordinary success which they have achieved in the performance of their task, the extraordinarily low percentage of what might be called failures which have resulted from the manner in which they have administered the guarantees, and the extraordinary small amount of criticism which, on the whole, has been aroused by the way in which they have done their work. Here and there, there has been a spark, but, on the whole, the surprising thing has been that there has not been greater criticism when it, has been a question of conferring public benefits on private firms.

The work having been done in this skilful and successful way, I believe that anyone who refers to this region of administration should recognise the importance of maintaining the absolute freedom of this Committee from any outside influence of any sort or kind. It may be profitable that there should be increased energy in the initiation of schemes, but I earnestly trust that the Treasury and the Government will throughout maintain the essential principle that the proceedings of the Advisory Committee are to be absolutely free from influence from any private source and from any public source, even though it be the Cabinet or the Government themselves, though I do not for a moment suggest that there is any desire to exercise such influence. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because this is a tribunal which should be in the nature of an expert, judicial tribunal. It is conferring public benefits upon private persons, and I am not myself contented, and I do not think that any Member of this House should be contented, that public benefits should be distributed by any authority which is not exercising an absolutely judicial capacity. I am sure that it would be perfectly contrary to the traditions of this House to allow public benefits to be distributed in that manner even by one of His Majesty's Ministers.

The losses which have already been incurred are undoubtedly very small, and that is a great tribute to the success with which the Committee has done its work. On a previous occasion, I emphasised the importance of full information being given to the House as regards these lossts. I would not have it supposed that in doing so I was advocating that there should be any premature statement as to what the losses are before they are fully ascertained. To give premature particulars might result in a loss which otherwise would be avoided, and I am confident that most of us will be content to forego until the actual moment that the final definition of a loss arrives any information upon the subject, as long as we are assured that when the time does come full particulars as to the ascertained loss will he given.

Before I proceed to say a word or two as to the policy of the Committee, I feel it necessary on this occasion, when we are considering the general lay-out of the work of the Trade Facilities Committee, to emphasise what is the general policy of this administrative departure, because unless we refer back to what is the general policy, what are the bases, what are the underlying principles of the scheme, we shall have no sure ground for making more direct and practical observations as to what the policy of the Advisory Committee should be. If we cast our minds back, we shall remember—those of us who do remember, the time of the initiation of the scheme—that its central purpose, of course, is to promote employment, to bring men and women back to normal employment in their own occupations. The particular characteristics of this scheme are that it does that, in so far as it is successful, without exercising any tendency towards increasing the costs of production, which so many other schemes, by way of subsidies, inevitably do, because this scheme, as distinguished from those others, has the effect, if any effect, upon the costs of production of reducing them. It reduces the cost of one of the essential raw materials of all industries alike, which is capital, and, by reducing the cost of that raw material, it tends to reduce the costs of production. That is one of the essential ideas of the scheme.

The other essential idea is this. This is one of the few methods for increasing the activities of industry and promoting employment, if, indeed, it be not the only one which can do so, without having any tendency to raise prices, because, owing to the way ill which the scheme works, although it increases credits, and thus increases currency and increases the buying stuff, at the same time it produces an increase of goods to off-set against that increase. Those are the ideas which underlie the scheme. I think they need, dry as they are, a repetition in order to remind ourselves of the practical way in which the scheme works. In order to carry out those ideas, it has always been considered as absolutely essential that two things should be held in the mind of the Advisory Committee. The first is not to bolster up with its assistance an industry which is unable, without assistance, to live against competition from other parts of the world because its costs of production are too high. It is no good doing that by State action. An industry which is in that unfortunate position has to find its own level. If you try and give it artificial help, you will only postpone the evil day. The second consideration in the mind of the Advisory Committee in order to carry out the bed-rock principles of the scheme, has always been regarded as this, that they should not waste the asset of public credit which it has to use by giving assistance to undertakings which are in good credit, and which are perfectly well able to raise the money which they require without any State guarantee at all. That is the second essential.

I mention these two essentials for this reason. Here we have had these gentlemen, all, as I have said, of the greatest experience and knowledge, working away on this scheme now for three years, and we have as yet had no general pronouncement from His Majesty's Government or from any other source as to the way in which the scheme has worked in respect of these two vital elements in it. The suggestion I want to make to the Financial Secretary is this, that it would be to the greatest utility of the country and this House and to the Government if he could obtain from the Advisory Committee a brief report upon the working of the scheme, particularly with regard to these two matters which I have mentioned. There are, of course, other matters as regards the working of the scheme which will interest other members of the Committee. I have chosen only two from many points of interest, and those two are: whether the scheme in the opinion of the Committee has ever hart any effect in this business or in that in bolstering up a business whose costs of production are too high to enable it to live without artificial help, and whether it has been possible so to administer the scheme as to make it quite certain that concerns which did not need them were not getting guarantees out of the Government.

Before I resume my seat, let me refer to two or three not unimportant. administrative defects which have appeared in the course of the working of this scheme. They are very familiar. I have myself referred to them on previous occasions, and other Members of the House have referred to them with far more emphasis than I have been able to do. In the first place, there is the question of the small concern. I know that the Financial Secretary has put his hand on his heart and told us that all is perfectly well there, that there has been no complaint among the small concerns. and that they have got many important advantages out of the work of the Committee. Nevertheless, I am not quite happy. I do find, in regions where the work of the scheme is watched with the greatest interest and hope of assistance from it, that there is a large impression that it is no good the small concerns coming for help. When I look at the statistics of the guarantees granted, I do not find a complete answer to that impression. I can understand so well how it can come about. It must necessarily seem to the Advisory Committee a, more profitable and businesslike way of using the guarantees to use them in big lumps, notwithstanding that it might have more effect in stimulating confidence and promoting trade throughout the country if more attention were given to distributing the guarantees in smaller units and making more centres of industrial activity.

I believe the confidence which a Government shows in the future has a very great psychological effect in stimulating industrial revival, and it is brought closer home in this place and in that when the Government takes its part in a forward development in this business and in that. That has a very stimulating effect upon confidence in business circles. You can increase that confidence slightly by distributing your guarantees in small units rather than in concentrating upon big concerns. In the second place, there has been a certain amount of disappointment about the guarantees in the development which has taken place as regards great Dominion schemes: and, in the third place, as regards foreign schemes. If I might venture to make a practical suggestion, it is this: that the disappointment as regards the development of this scheme in these directions has been due, in spite of the most praiseworthy vigilance-and sacrifice of time on the part of the Advisory Committee, to the Advisory Committee being overburdened. The bottle neck is too small. and, as increasing interest is taken in the scheme, and as its increasing potentialities appear, the time has come when it is necessary, if the scheme is to be efficiently administered, that there should be a subdivision of the labours of the Advisory Committee.

How the subdivision should be made is, of course, a matter for those who are armed with all the knowledge of the actual working of the administrative machine. I can only make two sugges- tions by way of illustration. I believe it might be of benefit if a special sub-Committee, or special Committee, were partitioned off from the present Committee to deal with small businesses. They are specially troublesome, and need a special amount of time and application; they get in the way of carrying through big schemes, and for these reasons it may be of great advantage to divide off that part of the work into the hands of a special Committee. However that may be, I feel convinced that we shall never make progress with the initiation and carrying through of the great Dominion schemes, about which there is a very real measure of disappointment at the present time, until we get a special Committee, to deal with them which is more in touch with the Empire generally. I believe that it is essential to get the initiative' and drive of the Colonial Office behind these schemes—not the judging of them, not the decision on the schemes, but behind the initiation of the schemes—in order to get them developed and 'brought forward before the Committee; and that the relationship of this other Advisory Committee to the Colonial Office should be what the relationship of the present Advisory Committee is to the Treasury, of course, retaining the ultimate, power of control which the Treasury must have by way of bare veto in all matters affecting national credit.

As regards foreign undertakings. One of the great hopes that was held in regard to this scheme when it was first initiated was that it would really have some appreciable effect in bringing orders here for the speeding up of works of reconstruction in the ruined districts of Europe, and as to that there has been no real measure of fulfilment. There may be other instances, but I can only remember one, in which a guarantee was given for electrical works in a country in Eastern Europe. Before I sit down, I want to indulge, if I may, in a rather wider, and, perhaps, the Financial Secretary may say a more visionary, outlook. We have not yet managed to use our credit for our own benefit to bring orders here in order to speed up this reconstruction work on the Continent of Europe to any appreciable degree. May it not be that, as Europe is settling clown, the time has come when it would be possible to internationalise the work of 'Trade Facilities?

A thing that has long been sought for in the councils of Europe is the mobilisation of the credit of the well-to-do nations for the -speeding up of the reconstruction of Europe. It is no unfamiliar idea. It was very familiar to my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir B. Horne) when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is very familiar to the present Secretary of State for War. Both have sought means for mobilising international credit for reconstruction. We all remember the International Corporation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. That was precisely designed for this object to which I have referred. It failed. It failed because it was premature, because Europe was not yet in a sufficiently settled state; it. failed because the mechanism of the Corporation was too elaborate; the nations with their jealousies and divisions could not be got together into such a close connection. May it not be that the mechanism of a Trade Facilities Committee might be extended into the international sphere now that Europe is quieter, and might succeed because of its simplicity?

It is not. for one without the apparatus of official assistance to sketch the details of such a scheme, but I do not see that anything more elaborate is necessary than an organisation such as we have in this country—a business Committee to decide upon propositions, and a pool guaranteed, put up by a, number of nations. It may be asked, what advantage will this be to us? We are using our guarantees here; what greater advantage would it be to us if we entered, in common with other nations, into an international organisation? I see a very great advantage. I see a great advantage from the enormous increase of confidence that such a combination would give in the promoters of the work. The mere sight of nations coming together with a joint guarantee for undertakings of this sort would, I believe, enormously speed up the work of restoration in ruined Europe, and bring orders here for fresh undertakings at a far more rapid pace than would otherwise be the case.

Let me say one last word on this point. In order to materialise and make practical any such scheme for the internationalisation of guarantees for capital works, the co-operation of the United States is, of course, essential. Now is the moment to obtain it. There is one great need in the United States—the need for safe investments in the Old World for a surplus of credit. If anyone were to go now to the United States and point out to them. how to get safe investments in Europe, they would be received with open arms. Such a scheme as this would provide the United States with safe investments in Europe that could be vetted, passed and considered by the highest expert opinion. It appears to me that it would provide one of the very best means, and one which could be quickly provided, for that co-operation of the United States in the work of restoration and resettlement in Europe which we all know to be one of the great practical necessities at the present time.

The opportunity is a fleeting one. If we do not provide means of this sort by which American credit ran run hack into the Old World, they will very soon provide other means of their own, and will not require our co-operation any more. I believe that very many seeds have grown in this scheme of Trade Facilities, which deserves careful consideration at the present time.

In common, I think, with every Member of the Committee, I have listened with very great interest to the speech which has just been delivered by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), and more particularly to that last part of it in which he laid clown a kind of international ideal in the mobilisation of credit. I dare not take this brief opportunity to say anything from our point of view on so large a subject, but I dare say every Member of the House who has been familiar with this legislation in recent times will agree that that proposal at least presents very grave difficulties, when we find it hard to get European and other countries to recognise their debts, and when we find it very difficult to arrive at their exact position as regards taxable capacity and the rest of it, with which any scheme of credit would be bound up. In saying that, however, I do not want for a moment to suggest that we on this side of the House would hesitate to co-operate in so far as we are able in any investigation of that kind, because, while this legislation was-being debated in the last Parliament, we felt over and over again that the wider the application we could secure for it the greater would be the benefit in providing employment in this country and in other countries too.

There are only two points which I will venture to put to the Committee this afternoon, but before raising them may I say one general word about the credit problem that is involved? Undoubtedly there are many Members of the House who all along have been either quietly hostile to this legislation or at all events have criticised it severely, perhaps not so much in this Chamber as outside; and a great deal of that criticism has turned on the fact that we are giving guarantees now in the aggregate to the amount of about £65,000,000, when it is all taken up, under the existing Act, and under the amended proposal to the amount of £70,000,000, which is a contingent liability for the taxpayers of Great Britain and is bound to have a certain effect upon our credit. The way in which in our time we tried to look at that problem was roughly this: During the hectic and glorious nine months of our office we had frequent discussions on Trade Facilities, and I always tried to stave off the stout opposition that sometimes appeared by saying that you had to choose between a certain contingent liability, and the consequent burden upon your general credit, on the one side, and a definite and immediate payment in unemployment benefit on the other; and that if I had to choose between giving a guarantee on probably secure terms, or paying unemployment benefit for no capital result whatever, I should unhesitatingly decide in favour of the guarantee; and that was the kind of principle that animated us during the Debates of that very remarkable time. T entirely agree. however, with my right hon. Friend, that we should not allow another extension of this legislation to pass without facing very candidly one or two big issues which undoubtedly it does raise.

The first issue which I am going to raise to-day is the practical application of a good deal of this guarantee in the past, and no doubt the problem will be the same as regards the future, in one of the great industries concerned. When I speak of shipbuilding, I want to make it plain that I am not picking out that industry to the exclusion of others; I speak of it because it seems to me that that industry and the guarantees connected with it give a very good illustration of the kind of doubt which must always be present fundamentally in the minds of Members who criticise this Trade Facilities scheme. According to a recent return, out of the £50,000,000 guaranteed, about £10,000,000 or £12,000,000 or thereabouts, to take very round figures, has been given in the shipbuilding world. Quite clearly, no one could take very strong exception to that class of guarantee, because unemployment in the shipbuilding and allied engineering industries was very great, and many of us went the length of saying that we should be prepared to take a certain amount of risk in credit in order to provide work if it could be provided at all. At the same time, that does not rid us of the duty of being perfectly satisfied that we are on sound lines in this legislation, and it is not in the interests of any Labour man or Socialist to recommend a guarantee if in point of fact it could be shown that there is not much chance of the outcome of that guarantee being remuneratively employed, because in such a state of affairs you do not do anything, in this or in any other country, to cure unemployment; indeed, you take a very definite step to aggravate it. In these matters we must try to take a fairly long view.

What is the position as regards shipbuilding guarantees to-day? When we left office and our successors appeared upon the scene, I think there was an early inclination to relax the caution with which additional shipbuilding guarantees had been considered, and the ground for that attitude was a belief that the amount of unused tonnage up and down the world had decreased, and that there was likely to be a demand in this and other countries for shipbuilding which would be remunerative in the future. Since that view was advanced in the House, we have had the recent returns of the United Chamber of Shipping, which I think throw an important light upon the controversy in which we are engaged this afternoon. If I remember correctly the figures as regards this country, there are about 19,000,000 tons of shipping, and the view is advanced that, of that figure, about 1,500,000—probably not more—is shipping which is more than 25 years old. So that, if we take figures of that kind, it would appear to be clear that the great bulk of British shipping in existence is capable of being used for a considerable time ahead, and to that extent presumably the demand for new shipbuilding in a time of recovering trade will be diminished. That is the present position as regards this country. Then, as regards the world, the opinion is expressed that there are probably five or six million tons of shipping unused and lying up throughout the world. While there is a very great difference of opinion as to the precise amount of that shipping which is over twenty-five years old, and, therefore, likely to be replaced by new craft, I think I can only leave it to-day by stating that while some people put it at an eighth others have expressed the view that probably not more than two or three million tons of that can be regarded as being shipping of an economic class, by which I understand them to mean shipping which can be remuneratively employed with safety for a considerable time ahead. I agree that on the international side there would appear, as I have read the figures, to be a rather better case for an increase of tonnage, that is from the point of view of its future remunerative use, but we are all compelled to recognise that there is a very great difference of opinion, because, of course, no one can exactly forecast the extent to which our overseas commerce and that of other countries is going to revive, and the extent to which that unused tonnage, even where it is economically strong, can be employed.

I raise this question to-day partly because of the immediate issue of shipbuilding and partly because of the general principle. There are many hon. Members behind me who represent shipbuilding constituencies, and I entirely sympathise with them when they are profoundly distressed by the amount of unemployment which prevails there. But it may be that it will be perfectly possible for the Advisory Committee to choose between a guarantee to the engineering trade in some sphere which is perfectly sound, is certain to be remunerative and will provide employment in a district like that and give a preference to such a guarantee over that of, say, the shipbuilding undertaking to which, on international and national grounds, apparently a little more risk is attached. If this country decided very largely to extend the aggregate amount, I do not know that, within limits, I am very much opposed to that, but there are other considerations in view. If that is the choice, I think we might have some declaration of policy from the Financial Secretary. I do not want to rule out anything at all, but I beg the Committee, and the most enthusiastic supporters of this scheme, to remember that if by any chance this country got landed for one of the shipbuilding guarantees, it would not be a trifling sum of £4,000, but it might be as much as £1,000,000 or £1,500,000 of public money. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] These shipbuilding guarantees are necessarily very large. I am not in the least against them. No hon. Member behind me must misunderstand me on that point. I am trying to point out a very important line of criticism which must be kept in view by any party in this House if it is going to handle British finance in an effort to solve the unemployment problem with anything like safety. Accordingly, I hope we may get some declaration of general policy from the Financial Secretary.

The other point I want to put is this. It goes to the very root of this scheme. The right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the Committee said one of the objects, or at all events one of the results of this legislation, was to cheapen one element in production, namely that of capital. Of course it is true that where these guarantees have been given in the past it has been possible to go to the open market, and get the money on somewhat easier terms. Whatever the difference may he, whether it. is a quarter or a half or one per cent., between the price which would have to be paid for that capital raised without a guarantee and the somewhat lower price at which it can be raised with a guarantee, it must be Conceded by hon. Members, whatever their economic views, that the difference is a form of subsidy, or a gift based upon the general credit of the taxpayers of Great Britain. No doubt it is argued in reply that that gift or subsidy is given because we are getting the immediate benefit of the provision of employment, because we are increasing our capital assets and therefore, our taxable capacity. All these things are true. I suppose it would also be argued by certain hon. Members that this scheme started at all events on a temporary basis. It was considered at that time as a kind of device in post-war conditions designed to provide work and that, therefore, exceptional circumstances might be allowed. But while there is a great deal to be said for arguments of that kind, it is always the duty of the House of Commons, charged primarily and nearly exclusively with the control of British finance, to look to the inner meaning of this legislation, and it is plain now that, inasmuch as the guarantees cover long periods of from 20 to 50 years, we must regard this as more or less a permanent device. It is definitely on the Statute Book and it will cover many years of British activity and the problem, therefore, arises as to whether we are to go on giving this form of subsidy or help without having any part or place at all in the effective management of those concerns or in the capital assets which this guarantee on our part undoubtedly helps to create. We recognise at once that that raises an issue on which the two sides of the House will be very sharply divided. But I am going to put it to-day not merely as a problem of public ownership but as an ordinary business proposition.

If we imagine that this Bill goes to the extent of £70,000,000, and that some subsequent legislation is introduced to increase the amount of the guarantee, there is then a contingent liability which depresses our credit, at least to some extent, and makes it a little more difficult for us to get accommodation in many directions, and is therefore paid for by the British taxpayer as a whole. That is one way of measuring this gift. In return for that we get only perhaps the proceeds of taxation, and that is not a fair way to judge the situation because, after all, we are taxing all kinds of other people who have not a guarantee, and many of them probably are in circumstances of greater difficulty than the kind of enterprise that this legislation covers. I think it is, therefore, perfectly fair to raise the issue definitely as to whether this and succeeding Governments are going on giving this guarantee, together with all kinds of other grants in different directions which we are making to-day, without having something to show for it. As regards the narrow point of control, the Trade Facilities Committee itself has apparently insisted upon having a representative on the board of one of the new concerns in respect of which capital issues were advertised during the past week-end. I ask the Financial Secretary definitely how far that principle is to be adopted in the near future, because it seems to me to bear very closely upon what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich said a minute ago in Debate. He raised the issue as to whether we were satisfied that concerns getting the guarantee strictly needed them first of all, and in the second place, whether they were efficiently managed. It is extraordinarily difficult to get at facts of that kind when you are only in an outside position. You must get inside the industry in some shape or form. You must have a representative there, seeing that it is a very large guarantee that is at stake, before you can reply to either of the right hon. Gentleman's questions effectively at all. On that ground advance a very strong plea for at least our representation in control.

On the other side there is the definite issue as to whether, in respect of what we are giving at the expense of public funds—because in the last resort there is not any doubt about that—we should have any part of the capital assets we help to create. That might take the form of some allocation of shares to the State or some other right. To-day, in order to be perfectly candid with the Committee, I recognise that there is great difficulty in working out a scheme of that kind, knowing that the legislation is to be continued on the Statute Book for some time and that there might be a difference in practice between those who have got the guarantee in the past and those who are coming forward for guarantees in the future. Accordingly, I suggest, as it is obviously a matter which cannot be settled on the spot, that the time has come when we. should ask the Treasury and the Government to appoint a Committee to investigate this important side of the problem. By that I do not mean some great public Committee or specially appointed body, but two or three people to get together the facts and indicate quite clearly to the Treasury and the House whether there should be a departure as regards the two points I have mentioned in the light of the very substantial benefits we are giving to considerable portions of privately owned industries. It is a problem of the use of our public funds and is, I think, bound to be considered. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will deal with the two points I have raised. I do not think we should worry unduly about the aggregate amount of the guarantee provided we try to keep the thing in proper proportion. After all, considering all our liabilities in Great Britain at present, even if this runs to £100,000,000—and on the amended legislation we should still be £30,000,000 short of that—it would be nothing more than one factor, and not by any means the most important, in the burden upon our credit. Having said that, I think it is our duty to -accompany the extension of the guarantees with the most stringent inquiry into the remunerative use of the sums which are raised. If we do that there cannot be any doubt in the last resort that side by side with providing immediate employment we have created valuable capital assets for the State, we have added to the taxable capacity of the community and we have employed British credit in a new and hopeful direction which I think is destined, if wisely used, to contribute very largely to our economic efficiency.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) stated that this was an experimental scheme of finance. I agree with him. I am not, altogether antagonistic to the scheme, and I sincerely hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will consider that anything I have to say is constructive criticism. I do not wish it to be thought that in any way I am against anything that will put men into employment in this country. We all know that unemployment is a national evil, and I think we are all ready to take certain risks in dealing with it. Therefore, I hope that any idea that I am antagonistic to our finding work for our unemployed will be eliminated from the mind of any hon. Member.

The right hon. Member for Norwich referred to the Advisory Committee. I agree with him that they are probably the best experts we can get in this country; but they have many difficulties to face. If hon. Members will turn to the terms of reference they will see some of the difficulties with which the Committee have to contend. The terms of reference were—

It is very easy to guarantee with other people's money. Although the schemes in respect of which guarantees have been given may have given employment to our people, some of them are decidedly more speculative than the British taxpayer should undertake. There is one con- structive scheme which I should like to mention to the Financial Secretary, and that is the guarantee of a, loan of £2,000,000 to the Newfoundland Products Corporation. The machinery for this concern, I understand, was sent from this country in Norwegian ships. Could not a stipulation have been made with this firm which has received this large amount of credit that the machinery should go out in British ships? There are various other schemes under the Trade Facilities Act where credit has been given in regard to mines and so on, and in connection with some of these schemes the credit was given for a period of 50 years. I do not think there should be such a long credit as 50 years. Should not there be a limit to these credits of, say, 10 or 15 years, with the possibility of renewal? I would like to suggest that.

There is one guarantee in respect of £600,000 for a company to be formed by Petersen and Company, Limited. Surely we as Members of Parliament cannot agree to give credit to a company "to-be formed." That is not sound business. There are several shipping companies in the list, and other companies dealing with housing and other schemes which hon. Members can examine for themselves, and see whether I am criticising these schemes too severely when I say that it hardly redounds to the credit of the Advisory Committee that they have backed up some of them.

The right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh made special reference to shipping. I refer to the speech made by the President of the Chamber of Shipping, which met last week in London. Perhaps the Committee will allow me to read an extract from the speech in order to show the position of the tonnage laid up. In his speech to the Chamber of Shipping the president said: The next remark is the most important.

My point is, that while it is true that there are up-to-date, efficient ships laid up, bad ships, that ought to be scrapped, are sailing the seas. They are cheaper, but very dangerous to human life.

My point is that some of the ships that are laid up are new ships, and that cannot be productively sound.

With regard to the large amount of issues that are being floated under the Trade Facilities Act, I notice that about £4,000,000 is the amount being offered this week. One of these issues is that of the Stanton Iron Works for £1,000,000. The preference shares of his company, I understand, are not fully paid up at the present time. Why should not the Advisory Committee stipulate that before they give the credit of the taxpayer to any concern that the shares should be fully paid up? With regard to a company for the development of the Sudan—we are all anxious to encourage. that sort of development—I notice that the ordinary share capital is only £10. I know there is a reason for that, but I do not call it quite business to grant the credit of the taxpayer to the amount of £540,000 on a £10 ordinary capital. I have endeavoured to show that in these matters the taxpayer should be protected more than he is at the present time.

My second point is the protection of our credit. I agree with a certain amount of what the right hon. Member for Norwich said, but our credit is vital, and we cannot play about with it, even with Trade Facilities Acts. When it is realised that our internal debt is £6,600,000,000 and that there will be £1,000,000,000 of maturities in the next five years, leaving out the £2,000,000,000 of 5 per cent. National War Debt, which the Government have the option of redeeming in 1929, we cannot afford to take one penny of risk with the credit of the country. This week we allowed a scheme to go through in respect of Irish land for a sum just under £9,000,000 at 4½ per cent., terminable in about 64 years. Schemes of that sort affect our credit. It all means that these maturities will be harder to place when the time comes for placing them. Let us remember that 10 years after Waterloo our 3 per cents. were at 94. That is what we have to mature to. That is what we shall get to if we look after our credit. We cannot get that in any other way except by looking after our credit.

I know that this is not the time to deal with the gold standard, but., undoubtedly, the gold standard helped us to bring the 3 per cent. to 94 in 1825. I know there are various objections to dealing with the gold standard at the present time. What the Committee must realise, is that all these amounts, even the £4,000,000 floated to-day under the Trade Facilities Act, all come out of savings. The only way we can obtain this new capital is by saving, and our savings are becoming smaller and smaller. Our adverse trade was over £330,000,000 in 1924. I know that that was met by invisible exports, but the balance, after the adverse trade was paid for, was only about £30,000,000. Our total savings in 1920 were £384,000,000 —I know that 1920 is not a very good year to take—and last year our savings were only £223,000,000. I have every confidence that the Financial Secretary will look to these things and protect the taxpayer and the credit of the country. I appreciate what he said in December, that

I am ready to leave it at that. With regard to what the right hon. Member for Norwich said as to international credit, I should be rather suspicious in giving any of our credit internationally at the present time. We have had experience in the past of Ottoman loans and other loans guaranteed by France and so on, but let HS look upon these things very carefully before we consider raising international loans even with the United States of America. Naturally the United States of America would welcome it. They would have the means of gradually bringing us into more of their liabilities in regard to external loans. I do feel that all this problem of credit is most vital for this country at the present time, and T hope sincerely that the few proposals which I have made will have the careful consideration of the Financial Secretary.

I must admit that in a House of Commons composed as this is of Socialists of three parties, my annual protest against this socialisation of credit is not likely to have any immediate result. But on this occasion the Government has had a very definite warning from the benches above the Gangway, which was given with great incisiveness by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench. He pointed out, in praising these proposals, the appalling dangers which they introduce; and the comments of his supporters on the Back Benches during the speech of the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) undoubtedly have accentuated the warning to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury as to what he is doing by passing Measures of this sort. After all, it is nothing but the socialisation of credit—the altering of our credit system, the system by which credit has been given entirely by economic merit without any regard to the question of whether a man supported one political party or another. Members on the benches above the Gangway have shown conclusively that., as soon as they get the power to do so, they will eliminate the one safeguard in the form of the Committee as at. present constituted and will see credit is given purely for political reasons. I do not suggest that the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) is giving his own views in 'advocating this proposal. But as a loyal member of his party he is obliged to follow its decisions, and I dare say in doing so he harrows his own feelings.

I desire now to take exception to some remarks which were made by the right hon. Member for Norwich. He suggested that, on a previous occasion when the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) was giving vent to some very sound economic maxims, they were mere text-book theories and had no real validity in practice. I am afraid that is a form of argument which is too common in this House, but, unfortunately, calling a sound economic maxim a text book theory does not in any way militate against its soundness. I suggest that, if the right hon. Member for Norwich would consider the matter further, he would see that it is impossible to extend credit in one direction without contracting it in another. If, for instance, under the Trade Facilities Act the Committee allow credit to the extent of £100,000 to some company or another. then it may be that some poor fellow engaged in industry two. or three hundred miles away gets notice from his bank manager asking him to reduce his overdraft. The whole point is that you cannot reduce unemployment by means of this sort, for you cannot create real credit. By extending credit in one direction you must contract it in another. As a result of this week's issues some poor fellow whom I employ may lose his job next week because of the contraction of credit which is hound to follow. There are many Measures which go through this House which are utterly useless for achieving the objects for which they are intended, but I doubt if there are any of those useless Measures which are so pernicious as this.

The broad point is that Trade Facilities established a completely new principle in this country, where hitherto those who wanted credit for the performance of useful work in industry have been accustomed to go to credit merchants and buy it, and if their economic merit was sufficient they got the credit at a reasonable price. If this policy is going to do away with that open market, if it is going to socialise credit so that there shall be no open competition for credit in that market and so that credit. shall not go by economic merit but for some completely different reason, if, in short, you get rid of the competitive system in regard to credit, then, as you have been warned by the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh, you must go the whole hog and socialise credit and place, it at the disposal of politicians.

The right hon. Member for Norwich referred to the question of small concerns, and suggested that there were very few small concerns benefiting under this Act. I think it only natural that that should be so. The Committee is constituted of gentlemen of wide experience, and therefore, in times like those, they do not grant the credit of the taxpayer to small concerns, nor would they be doing their duty if they did so. It is almost impossible in the case particularly of small private concerns, or small limited liability companies, for an outside authority to know what is the measure of their credit and what are the prospects of such concerns.

Again, in making their decisions what the Committee actually do is to use the credit of the taxpayer to enable work to be clone which otherwise would not be done. That only amounts to this, if we consider it clearly and carry it to its logical conclusions, that by granting these credit facilities we enable to be done work which is not wanted, and by contracting credit in other directions we prevent from being done work which is wanted. This again proves the analogy of the policy to a policy of State socialism. The policy of State socialism is the policy of preventing people from getting what they want and insisting on their having something which the Socialist party thinks they ought to want. There is a further point. The right hon. Member for Norwich has a lie w and rather startling scheme by which the United States should be brought into European affairs, a joint system of trade facilities guaranteed by the various Governments of Europe. That is quite unnecessary. For if there is this great body of American investors wishing to invest their money in safe securities in Europe the issues advertised in the papers this morning are available to that body of investors. If they are so deadly anxious to get sound securities they have only to subscribe to the issue of the, Sudan Company or any of the other companies. Therefore this wonderful structure of international trade facilities which the right hon. Gentleman suggested is unnecessary.

Before sitting down may I repeat that we have had once more to-night a warning which I have endeavoured to give every year for several years past, accentuated and repeated by the right hon. Member who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench. Everybody knows that these Trade Facilities Measures, if they are continued, and if they come under the control of a Socialist Government, will be used in the way which he indicated. Indeed, we have had it stated very openly by the remarks of his followers that it was their intention that the Trade Facilities money, when it came under their control, should not be distributed or controlled by any independent or judicial committee, but that it should be controlled entirely by the party caucus. Therefore, I appeal once more, though I know that it is perfectly useless, to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, if he will not accept the warnings of the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh, he will at any rate explain to us why this policy is a perfectly safe one, and why the warning which has been given is to be neglected.

In reference to this proposal to increase the amount available under the Trade Facilities Act, I would ask the Government whether it is proposed to make these credits available for financing trade with Russia on equal terms with credits that may be granted to other foreign countries. The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) expressed his fear that in future the credits might be used by a political caucus and, it naturally follows, in line with the political theories of that particular caucus. I am going to claim that in the administration of the export credit scheme, and of the Trade Facilities Act, in the past the allocations of credits has been governed, to a very considerable extent, by the political theories of the gentlemen who occupy the Government Front Benches. The Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade in debate last year expressed the opinion that no credits should be granted to Queensland because of a particular policy in regard to the land system which the existing Government of Queensland were pursuing, and while in theory the Trade Facilities Act is available for the financing of Anglo-Russian trade yet, in view of the general policy of the Govern- merit since the election, and of the rather stupid and party nature of some of the observations which have bean made in this House in reference to the advertisement in regard to Arcos, etc., and the attitude of the Government in tearing up the Russian Treaty, without giving the House Any opportunity of discussing it, and their refusal to submit the question of the Zinovieff letter to an international tribunal and the general attitude of the Government, it is only reasonable to expect that any proposals designed to assist the development of Anglo-Russian trade have very little chance of securing any assistance from the Trade Facilities Acts. [ Laughter. ]

This may be a laughing matter for hon. Members opposite, but I can assure them that it is anything but a laughing matter for thousands of artisans in the City of Lincoln, who formerly relied for their livelihood on the making of agricultural machinery, oil engines, boilers, and so on, which in pre-War days were exported to Russia and were paid for on a system of long-term credits. Since the cessation of foreign armed intervention in Russian affairs, the, trade between this country and Russia has developed very considerably. In 1921 the total turnover, including re-exports, was over £6,000,000; in 1922 it was over £12,000,000; in 1923 over £13,000,000; and in the first eight months of 1924 it was over £21,000,000. Although we are doing that volume of trade with Russia" the facilities of the Act are not available for commercial relationships, or the selling of goods to Russia. But in the case of the Baltic States of Latvia and Esthonia the Trade Facilities Act has been used to finance exports to those countries. I want to know why, if Parliament is to devote this money to trade, and if the object of the expenditure is to help us to deal with unemployment, the Government adopt this policy of hostility towards Russia. As a matter of fact, the Government do not represent the majority of the people of this country in this matter. At the time of the General Election the Liberal party advocated an extension of the Export Credits Act, and of the Trade Facilities Act to Russia, and in my own constituency there was a very large majority indeed for the development of this policy towards Russia.

The Government have to realise that if we are to cure unemployment in this country we have to develop the Russian market. I suggest -that a great many of the essential facts with regard to Russia are being either deliberately withheld or entirely overlooked by those who oppose the development of commercial relationships with her. Russia is the only belligerent country in Europe that has stabilised her currency without outside assistance. Her currency throughout 1923 and 1924 has been just as stable as the dollar or the pound, and it is not anew thing for British Government credits to be used to finance commercial dealings with Russia. I believe that the Coalition Government in 1920 gave credits to the Soviet Government of £350,000, and the only security they got was the word of the Soviet Government. All those bills as they matured were duly honoured on the appropriate date. It is a fact that, so far as the agricultural machinery industry is concerned, the broken chain of exports to Russia cannot be repaired, unless some method can he devised of overcoming this difficulty of long term credits. I hope that the Committee will forgive me for quoting one or two authorities. I would quote first of all the observations of Major-General Sir Philip Nash, Chairman of the Metropolitan-Vickers Electrical Company, at the annual meeting in April of last year. He said: point of view towards this problem on that Advisory Committee. I trust that the Government will be able to give the House an assurance that the money we are asked to vote now will be available for the re-establishment of trade between this country and Russia on terms equal to those in operation as between this country and any other country.

I wish to say a word or two in reference to the suggestion thrown out, not for the first time, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton 'Young). My right hon. Friend suggested that the full authority of this scheme will never be realised until to the investigatory functions of this official Committee there is joined the initiative of one or two of the big departments connected with our largest overseas market. The right hon. Gentleman particularly emphasised the desirability of some link between the Overseas Trade Department and the Colonial Office. I would like to illustrate from practical experience the advantages which might accrue from some direct connection between the Trade Facilities Act and the Indian Market. The Indian Market is the largest market that this country possesses. The total export trade of this country to India is one-seventh or one-eighth of the whole trade of the country. I have been looking at the list of moneys actually advanced under this scheme, and I see that there are only two notable instances of money advanced for Indian schemes. The Tata Hydro-Electric Scheme on the Western side of India obtained £1,000,000 sterling, and the Calcutta Port Commissioners received £600,000 for necessary development in that city which calls itself the second city of the Empire. While Indian export trade represents 12 per cent. or 13 per cent. of the whole export trade of this country, the sums actually advanced to India under the schemes are hardly more than 2 per cent., or 3 per cent. at most, of the whole of the money advanced.

At the present time I know of at least one very big scheme waiting for fulfilment in India in which case, were the Indian Authorities concerned approached by the India Office on behalf of the Trade Facilities Committee, they would find, I am certain, a really good reception for any proposal they might put forward for supplying money that is urgently neces- sary for doing work of public utility. The scheme is the Howrah Bridge Scheme in Calcutta. Calcutta still suffers under the disadvantage of a wooden bridge constructed in 1874. This is the only bridge across the great river which separates the two parts of the city. For the last 15 or 20 years successive committees have been considering means of providing Calcutta with a bridge more adequate to its needs and to its enormous and growing traffic. An engineers committee two or three years ago formulated a definite plan for the construction of a steel cantilever bridge which would cost in English money about £4,000,000. The only obstacle to the erection of that most necessary bridge is the lack of mobile capital. The existing wooden structure is such that there is almost daily danger of a catastrophe.

The Bengal Chamber of Commerce, which is the most authoritative commercial body in that city, has discussed the possibility of obtaining money under the Trade Facilities Scheme. I suggest that if that initiative, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich alluded, were forthcoming from the India Office or at the suggestion of the Overseas Trade Department, something of real advantage would accrue to India and to our own unemployed in the iron and steel trade—of whom I understand there are 100,000. The consideration of this bridge scheme has been going on for some time. People there have been worrying about it for 10 or 15 years. Lord Ronaldshay, one of the finest Governors Bengal has had, made a big effort to get the scheme through, but the financial obstacle prevented it, and Lord Lytton has been making special efforts in the same direction. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has an application been made?"] I do not think an application has actually been made, but the whole point of my speech is that some initiative is required. Some encouragement., some suggestion must be forthcoming from this side if the most is to be made of this great scheme, and I think that was also the point of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich. There are two or three other schemes which were similarly hung up. There is a great scheme in Bombay for reclamation of the Back Bay foreshore, and there is the great Sukkur barrage scheme, on both of which more than £10,000,000 is to be expended. In regard to both, we had 15 or 20 years of delay before some real initiative was exercised and an effective step forward was taken.

At the present moment, as I have pointed out, India is our largest market. The country teems with possibilities for the employment of capital if only Indian credits can be mobilised. Contrary to what has been said by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), these schemes, in regard to India at any rate, do not create and do not necessitate the creation of artificial credits. This is a question of the mobilisation of India's non-fluid credit. The credit is there, and any scheme of this sort which the Overseas Department or the Treasury hack up in India is a positive advantage, and the assets it produces will not run away. A steel bridge across the Hooghly is a perfect instance. There is also a big demand for railway construction, both narrow-gauge small local railways and' bigger lines also. We hay had the report of a committee on Indian railways, which shows that there are only: 37,000 miles of railway line in a country of 300,000,000 people. They have less railway mileage than Canada, with only 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 of a population. Such schemes would he thoroughly sound and productive of good, and would open up great possibilities. If the initiative, on which T have laid emphasis. were exercised from this end in collaboration with the authorities out there, something important could be done both for employment here and for the people in India.

I am sometimes told in reference to this matter that regard must he had to, the state of unrest in India. I am asked if there is not a prejudice against British intervention. That is a total misapprehension of the political movement in India. Political unrest in India is largely derived from the fact that Indians feel that, while we go there for-our own advantage, to invest our capital' and so forth, yet in a matter which primarily concerns their good and in which there is some slight risk we do not intervene as we should. T believe that kindly intervention from this side, with schemes designed to benefit the people, would not only assist employment here and facilitate the investment of our capital in India., but would make for positive good in the political sphere. So far from being resented, I believe such action would be appreciated and welcomed as a now gesture—as used to be said a year or two ago—showing that this country is genuinely and sincerely interested in the economic progress of India,

I have been interested each year since becoming a Member of this House in the annual discussions on new Trade Facilities Bills and to-day it seems to me, more than ever, that this legislation is looked upon from the financial point of view rather than from the viewpoint of finding employment for our people. There is always a discussion on finance and to-day's Debate has gone on the usual lines—only perhaps more so. I suggest that we should keep in mind that this scheme was devised, fundamentally, to make provision to assist the unemployed. That is a point which needs to be stressed in view of the discussion today. Many interesting things have been said about the effect of increasing credit through those schemes upon the general commerce of the country, upon currency and so forth One hon. Member has gone the length of saying that in this scheme we have a measure. of Socialism. I think myself the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Young) was nearer the troth when he suggested that the one thing to keep in mind in connection with this matter was that it amounted to conferring public benefits on private. individuals. Socialism has been described as this and as that, but I have never yes heard it described as the conferring of public benefits on private individuals.

The question we should ask ourselves is: What will these schemes mean to the unemployed l T take exception to remarks made from our own Front Bench in connection with this matter. Invariably, the leading exponents of these schemes tell us that what we have to take into account is whether a scheme is a good remunerative investment or not. That consideration should only enter incidentally. We have to consider first whether a scheme is going to provide a fair measure of employment and bring to the people of our country, who have been losing heart because of the difficulty of finding employment, a new hope and a new belief in the possibilities of the House of Commons as means of helping them. In connection with the shipbuilding industry it is no good to point to the fact that a certain amount of tonnage is laid up, when we find in Lloyds Annual Report a statement that the Board of Trade should bring its powers into operation or secure powers to see that many of the ships on the seas at the present time are replaced by more efficient and seaworthy vessels. If we replace inefficient and unseaworthy ships, which may in the future involve the loss of many valuable working-class lives, there is no reason why this Committee should not provide more credit for the building of ships. Those credits tend to create assets. If we build good modern ships, we increase the real wealth of the community, even though there is a lot of rubbish laid up which various individuals are not sending to be broken up as they should do.

I also criticise the policy with regard to the Advisory Committee, and I should like the Minister to have regard to the representations made from this side of the House that he should be in closer contact with the Advisory Committee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich began, as he always does in this connection, by paying a compliment to the services of the Advisory Committee and saying that it would be fatal to the working of the scheme if it were not a judicial committee, quite apart from influences in this House, and even from the influence of Ministers responsible for this legislation. Then further in his argument he suggested that it. would be necessary for the committee, in some way or other, to come into closer contact with the general policy of the Government and the ideas of the House of Commons regarding schemes which should be encouraged. I want to put it to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that he. should consider breaking away from the convention that was laid down in the House that this Advisory Committee should be a sort of inviolate body, a committee of business men who would sit in a sort of vacuum, apart from political and other considerations, and that he should venture to say, "Well, possibly there is something in the viewpoint that this committee is too much in a vacuum and not in close enough contact with us to know what our general Policy is with regard to the provision of employment," even though it is going to result in a certain measure of loss.

What a chorus of praise there has been to-day because of the fewness of the losses sustained in this connection! How the financial experts rub their hands and congratulate themselves at the thought that this Advisory Committee has been so safe in its dealings that these creations of credit have gone on with so few losses. Possibly that is a criticism of the Committee itself. I may, however, be looking at it, not from the point of view of the financial experts, but of the representative of the unemployed workers who are anxious to get work. I notice that the Minister for the Overseas Trade Department is smiling. Possibly a financial purist like himself may see something to laugh at in my suggestion, but I believe that the welfare of those unemployed people is of greater importance than money. The hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) said something about the need for watching our credit carefully, and he gave very impressive figures about the burden of debt that we have already got—£6,600,000,000—and the suggestion was that if we lost another half million or a million the British Empire would go out of commission.

My point was that the maturities were taking place in the next five years.

Yes, that is so. I am quite willing to admit that, but I do not see that it really gets behind the point that I would make, that if we have this big burden and these maturities to face, we have at the same time a great asset in this country, and if we could spend that great sum of money, those thousands of millions, I do not see that the Treasury should be as flinty-hearted as it has been in connection with this matter. Take shipbuilding again. It was suggested by the Minister's predecessor that each of those represented a very big issue, and that the loss involved was possibly a very big loss. I quite agree, looked at from the one point of view, but I do not think that the prospect of losing on ships is necessarily any greater than on anything else. It may be that money may be lost on another ship on which it ought to be lost, because the other ship might become unseaworthy, but the new ship will bring in its return all right. But there is the other side, and I want the Committee to take this into consideration. There are the thousands of men who are found employment in the building of that ship, men to whom there has been given hope because this venture has been made.

I have been studying finance for some years, and I think there are a lot of hon. Members in this House who are a wee bit too ready to be swayed by what is called expert opinion in connection with finance. We know what happened during the War. We know that what the financial experts considered as sound, safe propositions were called in question because the facts seemed to go against them. That is the case in connection with the gold standard and currency in general. There were ever so many of what were taken as absolutely sound ideas in connection with these things, and I want to suggest that we could extend the credit far more than has been done, and that we do not need to be nearly so conservative in our outlook. We have had the experience of the years from 1921 to guide us, and there have been no ill results to the general commerce of the country—at least, I have not heard any Member of this House suggest that there have been such ill effects—owing to the Trade Facilities Act. I would suggest to the Minister that he should consider making a far more intimate contact with the Advisory Committee and, having made that contact, that he should advise them to be far less conservative than they have been, and to take bigger risks.

There are ever so many schemes that could be taken up, and I would also suggest that he should ask our local authorities to consider the advisability of coming to the Advisory Committee with schemes, say, for the building of bridges. It might not be a remunerative investment, but it is a good sound security. I know it has been said that one of the principles that has to be observed is that the benefit of the trade facilities legislation should not be given to any concern for any scheme for which the concern itself might be able to find the credit without coming for the assistance of the Government. I am very doubtful whether that is a sound principle, but there are ever so many of our industries that could stand a good deal of support from the Government. There are ever so many schemes that could be put before the Advisory Committee by various concerns in this country which should be encouraged, schemes which would be put before the Advisory Committee if so many people in the country were not assured that the Committee was working on such conservative lines that there was no use in them applying.

I have one more point in connection with this issuing of credit. It is public credit that is involved, and there has been a suggestion of criticism that one has to be somewhat specially careful about public credit. For the life of me, I cannot see why the Government, with the security of the assets of this country behind them, should not be the body which should issue all the credits in the country, rather than the private banking concerns. Private bankers issue credits, and it seems as if there is a sort of special sanctity about the credits that they issue, possibly because it is going to lead to so much more profit making and so much interest for the people in the country. I believe that, just as we have the Royal Mint issuing the money of the country, so also we should have the Government of the country responsible for the issue of credit, that credit should be something that is socially controlled under the issue of the Government, and I would suggest to the Minister that there are a lot of poor people in this country, in the shipbuilding industry, in the engineering industry, and in other industries, and that if this Committee has it impressed upon it by the Minister that he is quite willing that there shall be a few more losses in the future than there have been in the past—the hon. Gentleman need not purse his lips about it. It is good, sound business, because the real wealth of the country is the human beings of the country, it is not the bank balances, or nice, safe, financial experts who get on all very well themselves while millions of our fellow-countrymen are in dire distress.

6.0 P.M.

There are one or two questions in relation to the administration of this Act which I should like to put to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for enlightenment. I understand that when schemes go before this Committee, the Committee feel that they are guided by certain definite lines of action, and I should like to ask whether those lines of action are available for public information or whether they are simply the private decisions of the Committee, arrived at from time to time, and solely for their own guidance. The public, I think, has available nothing but the terms of the original Act to guide it in this respect, and the terms of that Act are exceedingly wide, and I think it would be very helpful to people who are considering the possibility of applications under this Act if they were given some further guidance in a form generally available. I understand that the Committee consider themselves debarred from lending any money which can be applied to the purchase of land. That seems to be rather an extraordinary bar, because, first of all, land is a very good form of security, and, secondly, land is necessary as an initial expense in almost every form of new occupation in this country when a factory has to be built, and I cannot see why that limitation should necessarily apply. Another limitation, I understand, is that they are not able to contribute to the conclusion of an undertaking already started, or in progress. That, again, seems to me a very curious position, because in cases, of which I have knowledge, where very large amounts of capital have been expended on certain works, it seems reasonable to suppose that the completion of those works, which would be completed in a modern form, and would be the most efficient type of works possible, would not only be likely to contribute to the solution of the unemployment problem, but would also increase the efficiency, as a whole, of the particular trades in which they are engaged. Nor would the question of security be affected, because the fact that enormous sums have already been expended on such works, and the further fact that the Government loan would be. a first charge on those works, would seem to indicate that ample security would be available. I understand, however, that, in certain cases, particularly in relation to the steel trade, such assistance has been refused, and I would like to know whether that is on principle, or only for reasons connected with each specific case.

I would like, also, to refer to the question of the appointment of directors by the Committee, and the question of making the appointment of a director representing the Government a necessity before any scheme is approved. That seems to me a very serious question of policy, which ought to have come before this House before it was adopted. It has a great many different reactions, of which I will mention one or two. The first thing that strikes me is this. The position of a Government director on some of these concerns such as are on the list will be a very anomalous one. He can only have a moderate knowledge of the whole business of which he is a director. He is not in control, and yet his mere presence on the Board will give to that particular concern a status which may be misapplied, and certainly may be misinterpreted. It does tend, also, to give that particular concern a trading advantage in competition with its neighbours, which, to my mind, is very likely not to be justified.

With regard to the question of the status of the applicants for assistance under this Act, it appears to me that in this matter the Committee are in something of a dilemma, and in that dilemma they seem generally to select the course of absolute security. If they are going to lend money to people who could very readily raise their money in the ordinary financial market, they are not going to increase the trade facilities in this country, and they are not going to help unemployment. If one examines the list of the people who have already secured assistance, I am bound to say it is very disappointing, and that, with the single exception of shipbuilding, it seems that the addition to the trade of this country, and the consequent reduction of unemployment, must have been very limited indeed. I would, personally, take a view rather opposed to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), and more supported on the other side of the House, that more experiment, more speculation, is really necessary in this matter, if any real good is to be obtained. If it is simply to be a financing institution run on safe lines, and in competition with the existing financing institutions, I do not feel it is achieving its proper object, and there is one case on the Paper before us in which, I am sure, the only result has been that a very wealthy Corporation has been able to borrow money at, perhaps, one half or one per cent. less than it would have been perfectly able to do in the open market. When the application of the money's towards coalmining, a trade in which it is well known there is already far less employment than is available in relation to the amount of mines already owned, I think the justification of that loan is very uncertain, and that, again, is an example of how little good is done by the very safe line adopted by the Committee.

If I might conclude with one suggestion, it would be this, that the failure to find more speculative openings seems to me to arise from a rather injudicious haste to get results. New trade springs from very small sources, and therefore from small channels, and it is the propagation and encouragement of small channels which, alone, I think, can really be of assistance towards the increase of the trade of this country. To do that work properly, it seems to me that anybody such as this Advisory Committee should have at its disposal a technical branch, able to investigate proposals and schemes in their earliest forms. They would, no doubt, lose money in doing so, but, as has been said, the country would be quite willing to see them lose money. The difficulty of financing a really new development—it does not matter what it is—a mine, or invention or anything else—is that it is difficult for the originator or the inventor to get approval or a definite opinion upon the virtue of his scheme. If some money under this scheme should be applied to research in relation to these schemes, so that they might, to some extent have a Government opinion on their reasonableness, then, I think, in many cases the Government should recover the money they have expended at a later stage of the career of that particular invention or idea, and if the invention or idea were such that the Government could not encourage, the money would have been tell spent in an investigation resulting in condemnation by a real authority would suggest that, if possible, some sort of increased action on those lines might be content. plated by the Committee.

I wish to support the proposal put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), that the Government might give a little more attention to the small man. following on the lines, if I understood rightly, of the concluding remarks of the last speaker. He told us that new trade usually springs from small sources, and, possibly, if the Government would have more regard for smaller applications, we might get the beginnings of smaller industries arising throughout the country. I do not know whether there are any definite figures available as to the total amount of money that has been allocated to small people, but there was a question in the House, in the last Parliament, and if that be typical of the rest, it shows that the small man has, indeed, fared very badly. In July, last year, a question was asked as to the number of applications for guarantees under £10,000 each in the previous six months. The, reply was that there were 50 such applications, amounting in all to £250,000, and that of these particular applications not a single one had been accepted, and not a single advance made, whereas applications had been granted in the case of 33 loans for a sum of £10,000,000. I do not know whether that six months is typical of the other periods under review. If so, it would appear to show that the small man has not received very sympathetic treatment, and, so far as results are concerned, he has not received much encouragement from the Trade Facilities Committee.

Obviously, it is the small man whose need is the greater. The firm of big standing has good credit and large assets, and can, in the ordinary way, get practically what it. wants from its bankers or the open market. The small man, who has not big assets, whose credit is not large, surely deserves the greater encouragement, and I do submit to the Government that they should consider sympathetically the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Norwich, that a special Committee should be charged with the consideration of these smaller applications. No doubt they take time and require considerable research, and they might not, apparently, have much to show even if they were granted. At the same time, I do submit that their need is the greater, and, as has been said, several of the large sums granted undoubtedly could have been obtained in the ordinary way from bankers or the money market, and therefore the money which lies been so granted could have been better used if it had been granted to the smaller men. I hope, therefore, that may have consideration. There is no doubt feeling in commercial circles that it is not much good for the smaller men going to this Committee. Judging by results, as shown in the White Paper, the small man does not get his full share of facilities which are offered, or should be offered, by the Government.

A suggestion which was made by my right hon. Friend and has received support from several quarters, is one that, I think, the Government would do well to consider, and that is the linking-up of the work of this Committee with the Dominions and traders oversee. Reference was made in an able speech on this side to the needs of India. Mention was made of the Calcutta Bridge and the development of Indian railways, and the need of a certain amount of vision, and a little more encouragement to bring such things about. A certain amount of initiative would do much at the present time to help those industries which at the present time are in a depressed condition. We have been told, in answer to questions, that employment is improving. It may be on the average, but there are certain industries, particularly the heavy iron and steel industries, where, unfortunately, employment is not improving, and things are bad, and, apparently, going from bad to worse. Therefore, if it be possible to mobilise the trade facilities by granting extended credits to India, developing either the Calcutta Bridge or Indian railways, or any other structional development there, it would have the double effect of helping the development of the overseas land, and also giving employment to those industries which are so badly hit at the present time. Unemployment was supposed to be the prime cause for this legislation in the first instance. If that were an important factor then, I submit it is a more important factor to-day, when the outlook in certain industries is so had. We desire to know, to explore every possible avenue, for bringing increased trade to our home-land. Therefore, I hope that the government will have regard to the two suggestions that have been made this afternoon, of having special regard to the small men and their applications, giving special time, and appointing, if necessary, a special Commission to deal with the matter, and, secondly, having more courage and initiative in regard to the trade coming from overseas whereby our heavy hem and steel industries may benefit appreciably.

I have listened with great care to the Debate during the last hour, and have found two different points of view put forward—one the detailed point of view, and the other the point -of view of principle. There is no difficulty in outlining countless schemes which are good, and would be desirable. But the mere outlining of schemes is not a solution to unemployment, and, after all, it is the solution of unemployment that really we are discussing to-night. Earlier in the day we had criticisms of the very bases of the scheme from the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who objected to what he called "the socialisation of credit." If this scheme really represented an attempt to transfer the general system of credit from private individuals to the State, I should find myself in agreement with the hon. Member; but I think he based, his general case and attack upon the scheme on principles which are unsound. He tried to lead us to believe that the amount of credit was a fixed quantity, and that if credit was provided for A, that of necessity B and C would have less credit The mere fact, however, that we praise inflation or denounce inflation, according to our prejudices or our principles, is in itself an indication that credit is an elastic thing and not a fixed quantity, as so many people seem to think.

Quite apart from the credit which can be created, as distinct from existing credit which may be used, there is the fact that daring periods of trade depression there may be other actual funds or credit tied up in our system, and which are really idle. It is a little difficult to explain why they are idle, but the fact is undoubted. If by any action, whether legislative, administrative, or by propaganda you can get frozen credit unfrozen, and can do something to increase your trade, you decrease the volume of unemployment. I think the value of the trade facilities scheme is that it works in that direction. I feel a considerable measure of sympathy with the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Camlachie Division (Mr. Stephen). He was criticising the Trade Facilities Committee because, he said, they were rather "sticky"—a little too cautious. One must feel some measure of sympathy with that kind of criticism, because the Committee was called into being to take. risks which people otherwise would not take. If the Committee is not to take more risks than the ordinary individual would take, then the Committee can serve no purpose.

When a banker, or anyone, is asked for a loan to finance an enterprise there are, I think, four questions which must be put to those who ask, or that individual who ask, for the assistance. The questions are: Is the individual honest Is he competent? Does he want the money for a good scheme? If the scheme he a good one, is the time appropriate for carrying that scheme into effect? The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taylor), whose constituency suffers in a peculiar way, was criticising the scheme because it was not extended to Russia. Well, -Russia fails to fulfil the first qualification. You say to your client: "Are you honest?" Unfortunately, the reply in this case is in the negative. Therefore, you do not proceed with the three other questions. Taking, however, the ordinary scheme which is likely to be put before the Committee and where the answer to the three questions as to the honesty and the competency of the individual is in the affirmative, and also, it is said, that the scheme is a good one, there comes the final question: "Is it the right time?" Where the normal banker or private capitalist might he inclined to say: "No, it is not the right time: therefore, I will not hack up your scheme," it is, in my view, the ditty of the Committee, under the Act we are discussing—under the extension of the Act—finding normally that it is not the right time to support the scheme. nevertheless to take a different-view, because the scheme is essentially a good one and will he worth it. later. Therefore. the Committee should say: "We ought to help these people to raise the money." By giving the hacking of the State you may succeed in drawing out from its hiding place great quantities of money which otherwise would remain idle, and by drawing this out you may definitely add to the total volume of employment. I think that is where that great individualist, the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Honkinson), goes astray, for he fails to realise that you may vary the amount of credit and that it is possible to increase the total volume of credit.

The hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) was to some extent a critic of the scheme. He seemed to me unduly pessimistic, or T thought pessimistic, and largely for the same reasons as the hon. Member for Mossley. He quoted, in support of his pessimism, a number of statistics which I do not think had a great deal of bearing upon the subject. The measure of our annual savings, the savings of the whole people of this country, is not our balance of trade, including not only the commodities, but the invisible exports and the rest of it. These are not our savings. They may be a sum greater than our savings or they may be a less sum. As a rule they are very much less than our savings. The unfortunate thing is that we have no means at this time of making an estimate of what are the aggregate annual savings of the people of this country. Only the other day I put down a question to draw from a Government Department an estimate of the savings of the people. We have no accurate idea by how much the people of this country in the aggregate are richer at the end of one year than at the beginning of the year. We have some information from the public issues, but we have no real idea of the money which each year flows into industry from private persons and small firms. Therefore we have no real picture of the problem. We do not o even know to what extent the money and credit which is dealt with by the Trade Facilities Act compares with the total amount that is being steadily advanced day by day and week by week by bankers and other credit institutions. Of course, the plain truth of the matter is that the whole sum that has ever been placed at the disposal of the Trade Facilities Committee is comparatively small compared with the credit operations constantly taking place. To criticise it on the ground that it represents the creation of a socialistic experiment, as the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) did, is, I think, to indulge in a gross exaggeration.

The one appeal I would make to the Treasury is to realise this: that the object of this scheme is to do things, to do abnormal things at an abnormal time, to help those people who are suffering in a way which is difficult to conceive unless you happen to know them. I and my former opponent the hon. Member for Wednesbury have some realisation of the case. We have been closely connected with the part of the country where for four years thousands of men have been out of work; good honest men, not dole-snatchers, but straightforward, good, honest men engaged in the heavy iron and steel industries, and this scheme is the kind of scheme which may be of some use to them. These heavy industries are suffering because of the lack of real savings and because of the shortage of new capital. If by any scheme like this you can stimulate new savings, or you can make savings which exist more mobile, and stimulate the creation of credit and by so doing give an impetus to these industries, you are doing a great deal to make many sad homes in this country happier than they are at the present time.

I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken pointed out the fallacy in regard to credit underlying the speech of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). The banks are creating credit all the time. I hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will consider the suggestions made by my hon. Friend in regard to the appointment of the Committee to consider the working of the Trade Facilities Act. It does seem to me that this Measure, which was first brought forward purely and simply as an attempt to deal with the question of unemployment, as a post-War Measure, should now be re-considered in regard to a much larger outlook, with its longterm loans as much more than an emergency Measure. The hon. Member for Mossley talked about this being Socialism. My criticism of the whole working of this Act is that it is neither Socialism nor is it private enterprise. In regard to this Act, and in regard to the Export Credit Act, you are doing what to my mind is a most difficult thing, and that is you are putting the State credit at the disposal of private enterprise. Unless, therefore, the whole of the working of these Acts is exceedingly carefully watched, they are, I believe, open to very grave abuse.

One of the things I should like to put to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in connection with the way in which the schemes are working is this: take, for instance, the statement that has hem made about the appointment of a director on the board of these private companies. As the House remembers, a short time ago one or two of the financial houses which acted as bankers to the War Office got into financial difficulties. It was perfectly well known that the Government were in no way legally liable t but claims were put forward on behalf of some who had banked at those institutions that the Government should make up the losses that might contingently occur. A point I should like to put to the Government in this matter is that, however carefully they guard against the idea that there is no financial responsibility, it will be always supposed-that the Government is at the back of the concern. I know that those who put up money are secure in regard to their capital, but. I refer to those who have been doing business with the companies under the impression that the Government is behind them. Therefore, I think that in an innovation of this sort, matters should he very carefully considered before we start upon it, or allow what may become a permanent feature of the scheme.

There is another suggestion I should like to have considered. That is that we are making these advances without regard to the future profits of these companies. One of the advances which I think was made was in regard to the extension of the Tube from Charing Cross to Golders' Green. In that case the Underground Company had the advantage of the State credit for extending the line. But you never know how long, if not in this, in many other cases with regard to gas, water, and tramways, the community may decide to purchase the unedertaking, or to take it over in connection, it may be, with some of the reorganisation of the traffic in London. It seems to me, therefore, that, before a credit is finally given, the future ought to be considered, and if, at some time the municipality or the nation decide to purchase the undertaking, allowance should be made for that fact, and arrangements made, in definite terms, for purchase, if desired, in view of the advantage that has been given in regard to special State credit in the extension of the Tube or other undertaking.

As to the policy followed in the granting of credits, I would like to issue a certain word of warning. We-have to bear in mind, in reference to cases in which credits have been refused, that Members hear only one side of the case. Someone makes an application for money and is turned down, and Members of Parliament perhaps hear from their constituents who have been turned down, but they never hear why the Committee have turned them down, and it is quite impossible for the Committee to state their case in public. Therefore, Members often hear a case, and perhaps decide a case, simply on only one side of the evidence. My hon. Friend behind me urged that there ought to be greater freedom in granting credits. I could assure my hon. Friend, if he were here, that there would be no difficulty whatever in granting further credits. If my hon. Friend had seen some of the applications that come before us on the Export Credits Committee from people who, seemingly, have not very large resources, but are quite willing to expend the money granted or guaranteed by the State, he would know perfectly well that it is the easiest thing in the world to spend all the money there is to lend, and that there are plenty of gentlemen only too willing to do it. While we fully recognise my hon. Friend's point of view, what the Trade Facilities Committee have to do is to provide work for the unemployed.

There is a limit beyond which the Committee cannot go. It is exceedingly difficult to decide where that limit is reached, because it is obvious that in the first place it must he some limit beyond that at which ordinary banking facilities would be granted, and after that the Committee must stop at a point where money is not lent to gentlemen who would spend it and probably land the Committee in very considerable loss. The answer to my hon. Friend would be that though we are all anxious to find work for the unemployed, we do not want to do it by the hands of those who are just going to use this Committee, almost, for the purpose, one might say, of carrying through schemes that really have very little basis in actual sound business, and when we can use the money in better ways in dealing with unemployment. I was pleased to hear a suggestion as to whether more might not be done in helping municipalities in some of their schemes, by giving them credit, and, if possible—though this is going beyond the actual subject before us—using the money of the State for schemes put forward by a municipality for helping the unemployed rather than going to too extreme a point in connection with the Trade Facilities Act.

There is just one other point which I would like to mention to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I do not quite know why it is that the Advisory Committee under the Trade Facilities Act consists of only three representatives, whilst on the Export Credits Committee, which deals with far smaller amounts of money, there are something like ten or 11 representatives. Without in any way reflecting upon the excellent work being done by the members of the Committee, I would like to ask the Financial Secretary whether he does not think it would be an advantage to have a larger representation on the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee, rather than to leave the decision of matters in the hands of only three representatives, however able and competent they may be? If it be needful o to have ten representatives on the Export Credits Committee, why does not this other Committee also have a larger representation? I think it might meet some of the criticisms which have been made as to the difficulty of finding time to attend to the applications for smaller amounts, and—shall I say—as to bringing other points of view to the Committee, if there were added a certain number of fresh people who would look at matters from a different standpoint. I very much hope that I he Government will seriously consider the proposal to have a small Committee to inquire into the whole working of the Trade Facilities Act.

The Committee has had a very full debate on the Trade Facilities Resolution. Speeches have so largely cancelled each other out that there is very little left. for me to do, except to give the information which has been asked for, and to apologise for the necessity of going into detail rather than into generalisations on this subject, which has been so very thoroughly thrashed out on three different days. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett), in the very helpful speech which he has just made, seemed to me to enunciate, very tersely, the principles which should guide the Trade Facilities Committee in avoiding the bolstering up of inefficient industries and conserving our resources of public credit.

The debate this afternoon was begun by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), who has a considerable responsibility for the details of the scheme as one of its part authors. He made various suggestions as to a change in the form of return which we render to the House every quarter. He suggested that we should show periodically the sums repaid in respect of loans guaranteed under the Trade Facilities Acts, and also our liabilities still outstanding. Clearly, there will be no difficulty about doing that, and I shall be glad to make the necessary arrangements. As to his further proposal, that we should give a forecast of our future position with the outstanding loans, I am afraid that will be very much more difficult, as I do not see how future risks can be efficiently assessed. The right hon. Gentleman laid down very clearly the importance of not interfering with the discretion of the Trade Facilities Committee, and pointed out the great political dangers which would ensue if we departed from that principle which has been observed ever since the trade facilities machinery was set up. Later in the debate, we had a curious example of the kind of danger involved in allowing political considerations to interfere with the discretion of the Committee. We had a speech from the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taylor) in which he urged that the Parliamentary Labour party should be, given a representative on the Trade Facilities Committee. He (lid not urge it, as far ass I understood, on any financial grounds, but merely on political grounds. lie suggested that the decisions of the Committee had been largely arrived at on what he considered improper financial grounds, leaving out political considerations. He suggested that the dice has been unduly loaded against applications from Russia, and from other coup tries with systems of government with which the Government of the day here might not be in sympathy. it is rather a curious answer to that argument that the only two applications for trade facilities assistance which have been received from Russia came from Arcos and the Centrosoyus, not in the days of an anti-Socialist Government, but under the late regime, and that those two proposals were turned down by the Advisory Committee during the term of office of a sympathetic Labour Government. I look with grave alarm at the suggestion that we should have political representatives on a Committee whose decisions should be based entirely on financial grounds.

I was startled by the suggestion of the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), who overcame the call of the Scottish blood and the urge of his Scottish training so far as to say that in a purely financial matter we should throw financial considerations to the winds and merely go by other generations. I believe that in these matters we must be guided by financial considerations, and that it. would be most unsound, in the general interest of the industries of this country, that we should take away money which would otherwise be used in efficient industries under the control of people who run their businesses with skill, and should hand it over to be frittered away by people with no experience and with no prospect of bringing their undertakings to success. That is why we are bound to keep the administration of this business in the hands of those who look upon it from the prosaic but necessary standpoint of public finance.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich criticised the small provision which we are taking in this Resolution for the next 13 months. He said that there was an impression among those who otherwise might apply to the Committee that it was almost too late to do so, as there was only a margin of £15,000,000. I confess that that is the very impression that I want the Committee to give, because I look upon this machinery as emergency machinery designed to help us through a period of unemployment, and I want people to go to that Committee with schemes submitted in anticipation; they must not feel -that there is no hurry about it and that they can put it off till next year and get the same facilities then. I want them to go now, when there is urgent need of finding employment in British industries, and I think we have gone quite far enough in the undertaking I gave the other clay that, should a case he made out for an extension of the total amount which may be guaranteed at the end of next year or before the end of next year, the Government would not hesitate to come back to the House and ask for such extension.

The suggestion has been made in the Debate that the public are not generally aware of the principles which actuate the Committee in deciding what guarantees to give. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Lloyd) suggested that a statement of those principles ought to be made. May I say that the Committee have framed a questionnaire which gives information as to the general lines upon which they proceed, and they invite information upon which they can base their decisions in individual cases. The general condition in trade facilities guarantees is that they can only be given for an object which is shown to hold a great prospect of giving extensive employment. That is the answer to the question raised by the hon. Member for Dudley when he asked why it was that trade facilities guarantees are not given for the buying of land or the completion of expenditure which has already been begun. The buying of land does not fall within trade facilities guarantees because it does not give employment, and it is a useless drain upon public credit that we should guarantee loans for the completion of work which having already been put, in hand is likely to be completed without public assistance.

The right hon. Member for Norwich asked for particulars as to how the guaranteed loans had been raised. Of the £55,000,000 which has now been guaranteed about £20,000,000 has been raised by means of public issues. Another £20,000,000 has been raised from private sources such as insurance companies, banks, and so forth, and the remaining £15,000,000 has not yet been issued. The same right, hon. Gentleman asked a question about the Committee which deals with assistance to Dominions and Colonial undertakings, and he thought that it should be put under the driving power of the Colonial Office. The Colonial Office has a representative on that Committee, and the personnel of the Committee is a very strong and efficient one. I do not think it would be altogether desirable to limit the responsibility of the Treasury In this connection—as the Treasury has to keep in mind the original object of all these trade facilities, namely, the provision of employment—by putting it under departments concerned rather with trade outside our own area. In any case it id not easy to drive a Committee of strong business men of the kind who sit on the Trade Facilities (No. 2) Committee, and I think the reason that there have been disappointing results is that the facilities are not yet fully appreciated in directions from which we hope applications will come.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich suggested that machinery of the present kind should by international agreement be used for facilitating international trade and helping towards the work of reconstruction in areas affected by post-War difficulties. The League of Nations in 1920 and the Genoa Conference two years later pursued the same glittering bait of an international credit scheme, and I am not convinced that the requisite conditions for solving that question are yet present. I agree with the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) that we can only justify this machinery in the emergency of our present unemployment, and only so long as this urgent question shall last. It is quite true that the guarantees given must affect our public credit and that the loans guaranteed must come out of the resources of our public savings. But we have to bear in mind that the burden of the dole also falls heavily on our public savings. Many of these emergency measures weigh more heavily on our public credit than the trade facilities machinery. The Unemployment Grants Committee is, from the point of view of strict economy, probably far less sound than these trade facilities, and I think we have to look upon all these methods as justified only dining our present emergency, and not to be continued in competition with healthy industry.

There were one or two further points made in the Debate, and I would just like to mention the case put forward by the hon. Member for Ilford. The hon. Member is misinformed with regard to what he said about the Newfoundland Power and Paper case. I know that the Trade Facilities Committee take great care to see that British shipping and British labour is employed. I have made inquiries, and I am assured that in the case mentioned by the hon. Member the cargo went out in British ships.

I have a cutting in my pocket on this point, which I shall be pleased to hand over to the right hon. Gentleman.

This is not the first occasion upon which I have found slight inaccuracies in the public Press.

With regard to the criticism that guarantees have been given for a period of 50 years, there has been only one case extending over so long a period, and that is the case of the Underground Railway. In the case of industrial and shipping guarantees, the usual period is for 10 years, and the longer period of 20 to 30 years is normally only given in cases of public utilities. Now I come to the questions raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham). He asked what losses had been incurred. He will, I know, appreciate that I cannot give details, and only where the loss is finally fixed can I give names. So far there has only been one ease which has reached its final stage, and that is the small one of the Holbrook Brick and Tile Company bearing a loss of £4,400.

I am not sure, but I will let the hon. Member have the details. Three eases which are still outstanding are unfortunately of a much greater importance. In one case the amount is over £100,000, but we hold collateral guarantees which we feel sure should prevent any very serious loss. In the other two cases there is no collateral guarantee, but we are confident that we shall have to implement only a part of the guarantee. In none of these eases can I give further details because delicate negotiations are proceeding, and it would prejudice the issue if further particulars became public property.

I have been asked a question about the case of shipping, and I do not think that I have got anything fresh to say on this subject beyond the announcement I made on the Motion for the Adjournment in December last. It is quite true that the amount of tonnage laid up in this country has unfortunately increased very considerably since the figures were put before the House at that time. but I do not think that the fact that there is more shipping laid up is any argument for withholding guarantees in the restricted classes of cases which I then detailed to the House, and where there is either, in the case of a British undertaking, definite evidence of anticipation, or, in the case of a foreign proposal, satisfactory proof that if trade facilities be not given the work will be lost to this country and carried out in some foreign yard.

7.0 P.M.

I think those limitations effectively provide the greater freedom which we have now suggested to the Committee. In the first case we have to prevent guarantees being used to stimulate unsound shipping ventures, and in the second case the fact that so much shipping is laid up in this country is no argument against seeing that we get our share of the shipping which would otherwise be built in foreign yards. On the general position I should like to give to the House some very interesting figures which were compiled largely from Lloyd's Register for the last quarter of 1924. I think these figures make a very sound case for allowing guarantees in selected cases of shipbuilding. The figures show that whereas during 1924 the British percentage of the world output of new tonnage was 66 per cent., at the end of the year the tonnage on the stocks had fallen to 53 per cent. These disquieting figures are the result of increase. of foreign competition. Tonnage now under construction compared with a year ago has increased in France by 85,000 tons, in Italy by 35,000 tons, in Germany by 30,000 tons, and Holland 12,000 tons, contrasted with the decline of 98,000 tons in the United Kingdom.

Is it not a fact that Lloyd's Register gives us the result that last year in Britain we built 64½ per cent. of the world's tonnage?

That is quite true, and I did give that figure, but, perhaps, the hon. Member missed it. As a matter of fact, the exact figure is 66. I do not think there is anything at issue between the hon. Member and myself.

The point is this, that with all the unemployment that is abroad to-day in the shipbuilding and engineering industries, the fact remains that in Britain we have done more than half the shipbuilding of the entire world together.

I agree, I gave that figure 53. But the point is that at the moment we seem to be losing ground. There may be explanations. There was a considerable lag of shipbuilding owing to the lockout of boilermakers. Many of the builders were specialising in tramp steamers, which, for the moment, are in no great demand. This foreign competition is of rather a special character. The tonnage of motor vessels under construction, chiefly in German and Dutch yards, has risen from 634,000 tons a year ago to 924,000 tons a month ago. Of course, I agree with the hon. Member that there is nothing to occasion very great alarm about British shipbuilding. Twelve and a half per cent, of the shipping afloat to-day—that is, 7,500,000 tons —is over 25 years old, and it is hound to be replaced before long. But though I am not an alarmist and though I agree with the hon. Member that it is a great achievement that we still keep half the shipbuilding output of the world, we have got to do all in our power to see that this great industry keeps fit and in training and ready to take advantage of a revival of demand. The fact remains that we have got 31 per cent. unemployed in the shipbuilding industry to-day. We have got 80,000 skilled workmen losing their art and their skill, and that is our justification for relaxing the restrictions which were laid down a year ago. I think in special cases, after exhaustive inquiries by the Trade Facilities Committee, the House need riot be afraid, but rely on the Committee's discretion to see that shipbuilding facilities are not being misused.

Might I ask whether the; hon. Gentleman considers the possibility of asking the Advisory Committee to report. on certain aspects of the working of the scheme?

I will certainly go into that with the Advisory Committee. I will undertake to give the information for which the right hon. Member asks as to present commitments.

The point is rather a different one. It is as to the way in which the scheme is worked in regard to certain matters which I have explained.

I answered that point which was raised also by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Lloyd). It is a question as to the general lines on which the Committee work. What the Committee requires of applicants is broadly outlined in a questionnaire, and I shall be pleased to arrange for copies of this questionnaire to be available in the Vote Office. I will also go into the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman with the Trade Facilities Committee and see if they can with advantage make some fuller statement as to the general grounds on which they have acted so far.

I want to raise a point with regard to new industries. All through this Debate to-day we have had no mind concentrated upon the need for the development of new industries in this country. What are the difficulties? A new industry is seldom known. It is quite easy for the Committee that sits now to be able to make decisions upon old trades, established trades, but they have never once concentrated, neither under this nor the previous Government, upon establishing, or the method of establishing, new industries in this country. We all remember the great promises that were made when the War was finished. We were going to start up all the new industries which had been discovered as the result of the great War, and yet there has not been one of these industries come to life. Now that we have got the Trade Facilities Act in order to help unemployment, we do not get any consideration given to new ideas. I welcome the idea that a technical Committee ought to work in co-operation with this Committee, because up to to-day we have never had anything but the commercial point of view put before us in the consideration of schemes. I submit that from the national standpoint of industry there is more than the commercial point of view. The banking point of view, the money point of view, the liability point of view, the possibility of recovery point of view have all been considered, but never once has a new industry been considered from the point of view of industry, and this is something that the Committee has get to get right down to. Even some business men do not grasp what is meant by the Trade Facilities Act, and I want to ask for a restatement of it in the public Press. It would be an act of kindness, especially to Members of the House who are flooded with letters on the question, if it were done.

We are faced with what is called stagnation in the coal trade. There need have been no stagnation in the British coal trade if we had even developed one section of what was developed during the War in regard to coal. This House is ready to grant subsidies to grow beet sugar—to grow something that we can get quite easily from other parts of the world—and while we are bringing in oil we refuse to take oil out of the coal of our own fields. Do not forget the inventor is not blind to this fact, that inventions that should be applied to-day to increasing industry and increasing employment were put on the shelf and denied development because there are certain other private interests, money invested in things which these new inventions would scrap; and because of this industry is set back. That is not the development of industry. There is nothing but the financial and pawnbroker outlook on industry when to-day you could not only be extracting at a profit the oil you are bringing into the country but could also be employing British capital and labour. And in the process of getting that oil you would be getting something greater than your beet growing can ever do for agriculture. In getting your oil, what would you be doing? You world be able to build your super-power station and induce people to use motive power as is being done in America. American returns show that every time power is cheapened the use of horse-power has been increased, and this has increased trade, but they never increased till they had cheapened their power. Now they are getting their power from a coal basis, because experiments show that they have even beaten Niagara in the production of electric power by low temperature carbonising of coal. Why should you pose here as men anxious to be doing something for industry and to help the unemployed when you have not even got a man on your Committee who knows the first thing about industry? I hope that, after what I have said, some effort will be made towards getting down to the practical side of the business as well as the money side, and I hope the Committee will not forget that there are more sides than the financial interest in business in this country.

I should like to touch upon a matter that has been alluded to by the Financial Secretary. It refers to a remark that I heard as I came in about a firm in my constituency, and I took it from the right hon. Gentleman's remark that the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) had stated that firms in an enterprise financed under the Trade Facilities scheme were employing non-British labour, especially in regard to the transit of material for the Newfoundland Paper Company. In his reply the right hon. Gentleman said that, as far as his knowledge was concerned, this transit took place in British ships. That is quite correct, and, as far as non-British labour is concerned, unless Newfoundland labour be called non-British, there has been no non-British labour employed upon the Newfoundland Paper Company's enterprise. The whole of the skilled men were sent out from the city of which I have the honour to be one of the representatives here. I saw them off, and many of my friends are there, and the only labour, apart from that which has been sent. from this country, is the unskilled labour, which is Newfoundland labour. The whole of the material has been sent across there in British ships, as far as I am aware.

In the opening speech of this Debate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), who has a close acquaintence with the Trade Facilities Act, said that one of the fundamental things in regard to the operation of the Act was to see that no firms who could reasonably be expected to get over their own difficulties should be assisted under the Act. That phase of the matter was carried on by the hon. Member for Ilford, who spoke about firms whose capital value was not paid up, and on that line I have one or two other remarks to make. The shipbuilding industry has been dealt with by several speakers this afternoon, and it is a fact that about £12,000,000 of the £52,000,000 that has been guaranteed under the Act has gone to shipbuilding firms. I want to point out to this Committee that there are firms which to my knowledge come under the same category as those referred to by the hon. Member for Ilford, whose capital had not been paid up. They are firms who have watered their capital to such an extent that it is a scandal to British industry. There are shipbuilding firms amongst them, and I have here such names as the Northumberland Shipbuilding Company which gave 14 shares for one; Messrs. Reyrolles, engineers, who have watered their capital six-fold since 1917; Irvines, shipbuilders, who gave 20 shares for one; and the very extreme case of Grayson and Sons, of Liverpool and Birkenhead, who gave £4 worth of share scrip for every shilling originally invested. They may come along, as their confreres have come along, to ask for guarantees under the Trade Facilities Act.

Under the Companies Consolidation (Registration) Act, all firms that ask for fresh capital must show what the recapitalisations have been for the last two years. Are the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee going to proceed on the same lines, and only go back for two years into the financial history of these firms, or will they go back for eight or nine years Such firms as those whose names I hare here—and the names are legion up and down the country—have put a load on to British industry that British industry will never carry. It is staggering to-day under a load of watered capital; and when speak of watered capital, I have it clearly in my mind that over-capitalisation and the watering of capital are not the same thing. I am referring to firms who, by means 'of a mere book transaction, have written up their share values to an exorbitant extent, who come within the purview of this Act, and who might come, and have come, to get guarantees which the State may have to redeem.

A great deal has been said with regard U, shipbuilding, and I am pleased to see that the Prime Minister is here, because he will be laying before the House certain provisions with regard to safeguarding industries, and I am going to draw his attention to a, very important matter with regard, not to commodities which are coming in, but with regard to commodities which are going out. I was speaking some days ago to a shipowner in a very large way of business, who is about to place an order for a vessel of 14,000 deadweight tons. We were talking about wages, and he was emphasising the necessity for a reduction of wages so that shipbuilding costs might be brought down and the industry of our country resuscitated; and he was good enough to lay before me the two lowest estimates for this vessel, one from the Continent, and one from a home yard. He said, "What do you think of that? There is a difference of £21,000 in the two lowest estimates." I said to him, "If you place that order in Holland, what is going k) take place?" He said, "I do not know; I suppose the ship will be built." I said, "She will be built, and. she will be built out of steel angles and plates made in Britain and supplied to the Dutch firm at 30s. a ton less than the home builder gets them for." I commend this to the notice of the Prime Minister, that, when he is going to safeguard industries against things that come in, he might give a little attention to those that go out. He might also give attention to the old vessels that are being sold to our competitors in Italy. Old British vessels are sold to Italians, broken up in Italy, sent as scrap to the steelworks again, made into new steel plates, and placed on the market in open and successful competition with our own. These are things that are going out, and perhaps the right, hon. Gentleman will give some attention to them.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) made a suggestion that under the Trade Facilities Act the State should have as security some share in those firms that are granted guarantees under the Act. That was ridiculed by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hookinson), who said it, was pure and unadulterated Socialism. If it is Socialism, it is a Socialism that has been adopted by the banks all my lifetime. If a firm is in difficulties, and an overdraft, is allowed it by its bankers, what do they get? Do they not get the share scrip of that firm as security for the money they lend? They have adopted Socialism a long time ago. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich spoke about the parsimony that exists here with regard to voting money uncial. the Act, and he said that we were always, or very nearly always, right up to the sum allotted. I would point out to the Committee, however, that we have never been within £12,000,000 of the total amount that has been provided under the Act. We have been, and we are to-day, £12,000,000 in front of the claims that have been granted.

With regard to the Committee, there has been much eulogy of it here this afternoon. I have listened to nearly all the speeches, and the Committee has been everything that is good. I have a different opinion, and there has been more money voted under the Act for shipbuilding in my constituency than in any constituency represented here. The Committee could resuscitate industry if they were doing what they undertook to do, and what the first Committee undertook to do—the Committee of eleven that was set up under the Board of Trade and did not function at all. Another Committee was set up under the Treasury, consisting of three bankers, who are not now drawing the attention of the small trading firms to the great benefits that they can get under this scheme. This Act, in my judgment, is a veritable Magna Charta; if rightly administered, it is by far the best thing that the Coalition Government did when they were in office. This Committee cannot be expected to do it. It is asking too much of human nature to ask three bankers to draw' the attention of the trading firms of the country to the great facilities that are given under the Act. Their interests lie directly athwart the Act, and it is expecting too much of human nature. They are not doing it, and they never will.

I am anxious that this Vote should go through, but I want to say that the Committee ought to draw the attention of the smaller firms to the Act. Many of them know nothing about it. It is surprising what ignorance there is, even amongst commercial men, as to the facilities available under this Act. There is a firm in my constituency which has employed hundreds of men during the last 12 months, and will employ them, probably, for the next six or seven months, on an enterprise financed under the Trade Facilities Scheme. On the other hand, I know of a smaller firm that has employed quite 300 men, but is languishing for want of funds, on the opposite side of the river, within a stone's throw of that large firm that has benefited under the Act. I would say, in conclusion, that the Committee ought to be made to perform the functions they undertook when they were set up, and draw the attention of the smaller firms to the great benefits available under the Act, so that the industries of our country may be resuscitated.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

War Charges (Validity) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Validity of certain War Charges word Levies.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I only want to press once more on the President of the Board of Trade four general points which. I brought to his notice during a previous stage, but which I fear have not had enough weight in his mind and in that of the Attorney-General. This Bill is not an Indemnity Bill, and to press it upon the House as though it were an Indemnity Bill is to give an inaccurate impression of the powers which are taken under it. An Indemnity Act, as I understand it, while indemnifying the officers of the Government, leaves the Government with the responsibility for the acts which have been done. The next-point that I would press upon the right hon. Gentleman is that this Measure, while not an Indemnity Act, does seek to grant validity to acts performed by the Government which have been decided by the Courts to be illegal; and in that sense it is a new departure for which there is no precedent in the past. Indemnity Acts have from time to time been passed through these two Houses, but an Act which grants validity to a Government for having performed illegalities has never before been passed, and the present Bill is a modification of its three predecessors. Neither the right hon. Gentleman nor the Attorney-General has given the House any assurance that this new form of procedure is or is not to be repeated in the future, but I hope he will take this opportunity of stating explicitly on behalf of the Government that this is not to be regarded as in any way a precedent and that no Indemnity Act will under similar circumstances be introduced in the future.

The third point I wish to make is that, so far as the shipping claims are concerned, an inaccurate impression undoubtedly got abroad that the claims which could he made if the Bill were not passed into law would be very large have taken great care since the Committee stage to look into the cases which Gould possibly arise, and I find that the shipping people as a whole refrained from making any claims, although they were advised that they would have good legal ground for doing so. Having entered into an honourable understanding with the Ministry of Shipping, with its expert officers, they did not take full advantage of the powers they possessed under the law. On making inquiry into the details, I find that the total amount which could be at risk is only a fraction of that which might have been claimed had they not been guided by public spirit in an honourable way and refrained from taking full advantage of their rights. The figures which were given on the Committee stage were indefinite on this point and, as far as I can ascertain, a great many claims are totally barred because they have not already been lodged, and, indeed, nothing, so I am advised, could possibly be claimed unless it was in an action begun within one year from the termination of the War, which has been interpreted as being 21st August, 1921. It therefore follows that there is, even in a case in which there was no honourable understanding, a very strict limit as to the claims which can be made, and if no proceedings had been initiated before 21st August, 1922, I am advised that no case can now arise and that, indeed, the only reason why the famous Brocklebank case, which has been before the Courts and where a decision was given against the Government, held good was that the Brocklebank owners filed their claim before 21st August, 1922.

The number of companies and owners who might come into the field had there not been that limitation might have been very large, but in fact the amount is so small that I press on the Government again the wisdom of leaving out of account this item in the Schedule. I put before the Committee, when we considered the Resolution, the case of the Marshall Shipping Company. A grave hardship will be clone in this case, a most deserving case, and possibly in one or two others if this Bill be passed into law. The point I want to press on the two right hon. Gentlemen is that they should not, for the sake of safeguarding their Departments against a comparatively small claim, take this new departure of dealing with these matters, not by way of indemnity, but by giving validity to illegal actions performed by a Govern- ment Department even though the acts were performed with the best intentions in the world. There was no desire on the part of the trade, to which I have been giving special attention, to take undue advantage of the position in which the Government found itself. They have not done so in the past, and they are not able to do so in the present. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider these facts and will not infringe what has been a most excellent principle in the past, that Governments must accept full responsibility for the acts of their officers, by pressing forward this Bill in an unamended form.

I appreciate very much the way in which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Runciman) has put his arguments and the attitude the great majority of the ship-owners have taken throughout, in the House and in their organisation, in relation to this Measure. With regard to the question of this being a precedent, I hope, certainly quite as much as the right hon. Gentleman does, that it will be nothing of the kind. Anyone who has been under the necessity of introducing this Bill, will, I am sure, echo that sentiment. But it is almost inconceivable that this House should ever again find itself in a position where the same facts have to be met, because what we had here was that with the full knowledge of the House a particular charge was made in respect of licences which everyone thought was legal, and, as the right hon. Gentleman said on the last occasion, if any of the Governments which were in office during the War, either the one of which he was a member or its successors, had ever thought that there was any question of these licence fees being illegal, they would have done the obvious thing, and have said, "We are doing this. Everyone agrees that it is the right thing to do. Give us the necessary legislative powers," and certainly the House of Commons would undoubtedly have done it. It was because of the unique position in which those charges were levied, and because the House was not asked at the time to do what it undoubtedly would have done, that we, in this Bill, following precedents set us, come to the House to do what t am advised—and this has been the conclusion of successive Governments—is the only thing that can put the matter right, which is to pass a Bill in effect making lawful what was done by common consent, but without authority. I cannot conceive that we shall ever find ourselves in a similar position again, and therefore I do not really think there is any fear of this being used as a precedent.

The right hon. Gentleman referred again to the amount of the claims. I hope I made clear last time what the position is. I agree that, if this Bill be not passed, and the judgment in the Brocklebank case stands, the amount in question will vary between £70,000 and £158,000 according as one or other ruling applies. One object of the Bill is to set that doubt at rest. If, on the other hand, the Brocklebank case be not right in law the Act of Indemnity does not bar the claimants who have not made their claim within a year after the legal termination of the War, and the whole of the shipping claims would become valid as would also all the other claims. I speak in the presence of the Attorney-General, but I do not think I am putting it too high when I say there would be a right to bring an action which would not be debarred, and that would apply to all these other claims which are set out in the Schedule. But there is a further point which, to my mind, is perhaps even more convincing than the argument as to whether the judgment may or may not be upset, and that is the moral claim. The right hon. Gentleman said, with truth, that there was a vast majority of these people who, as it turned out, in law were entitled to make their claims. They did not make them but relied on the assurances of successive Government How would it be possible, if you paid out to the people who did not act on the advice of the Government and did not accept their assurances, to refuse to pay out to the people who refrained from bringing their claims on the assurance that we would introduce legislation? That is the moral ground which makes it so important to treat all these people alike.

The right hon. Gentleman pressed the Board of Trade to reserve what is in effect a dispensing power in some of these cases, and he quoted a case where as events have turned out, not events for which Governments have been responsible, but in the changing circumstances of trade, the firm has got into difficulties by reason of the tremendous slump which took place in the shipping industry and which all shipowners had not the foresight to foresee. I do not think we could possibly ask the House to give a dispensing power of that kind for the reasons given by the Attorney-General last time. Anything the House does, I suppose, is legal, but certainly it would be entirely without a precedent. It would really be saying, "Here we are legalising to-day taxation which the Whole House in the time when it was imposed thought was perfectly legal, but we give the Board of Trade power to grant exemptions from that if it thinks fit." Suppose the right hon. Gentleman had come to the House in the course of the War and said, "We want now by an Act of Parliament to legalise this. We want to legalise things which have been done in the past, and we want statutory authority to collect any levies in the future, but we propose to reserve to the Board of Trade a discretion to let people off paying this form of levy if they think it is a hard case." I am sure the House would not have assented, and the House would have been perfectly right. I am sure it would be utterly wrong to give any Government Department a dispensing power of that kind. The very same reasoning which led the House to insist, rightly, that I should put into the Schedule precisely the charges which are to be legalised applies with even more emphasis to saying that, if there is to be an exception from that, it should be clearly and plainly set out. If you give me a dispensing power of that kind, how could I exercise it? It would be unfair to exercise it in relation to what may be the financial status of a particular firm to-day, years after the event took place with which the transaction is concerned. It would be impossible to exercise it rationally, fairly, or reasonably. It was good business for these people to engage in the transaction when they did, and I think the Committee must take what is the only possible course. I am sure it will appeal to my right hon. Friend that he should not take a particular hard case, becoming a hard case years afterwards, and ask me to do a thing which is wholly without precedent and which, I am sure, he would resist if he were in my place. I beg him, therefore, to let the Bill stand in the form in which it is, and not, for the sake of a kind heart, put upon me an obligation which I ought not to be asked to discharge, and which I am quite sure I cannot discharge.

I wish to make it clear that as far as we are concerned on these benches we take responsibility with the present Government for this Bill. I did not want it to be assumed by my silence that we agree with even the polite criticisms voiced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea West (Mr. Runciman). This Measure came forward before our time, it came up again when we were in office, it is here again, and if there were any hardships in former editions of this Bill, they are relieved by the proviso in the first Section. It is quite evident that the intention at the time of Parliament, and the whole idea of everybody concerned, was that these licences and fines were perfectly validly levied at the time, and it was by an accident of law that it was decided that there was no validity for them.

I cannot agree that there is no precedent for this action. I remember that some of my hon. Friends behind me obtained a decision in regard to certain rent cases on the Clyde, and a Bill was introduced in this House which deprived certain people of rights which arose out of a gap in the Rent Restriction legislation. If the records of the House are searched, I think other cases will be found in which this sort of action has been taken. It is, therefore, wrong to say that there have never been any Bills of this sort before. As far as we are concerned, we think that people should not be allowed to start law suits merely because of a technical advantage. Most of them did very well during the War. We support the Bill wholeheartedly, without any qualification.

At every stage of this Bill I have ventured to make a respectful protest. I am not going to renew the protest, even if it were in order, but I should like to say that I am entirely in agreement with the President of the Board of Trade in regard to the dispensing power, which he does not wish to accept from my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West. On that point he has my hearty support. Has there been any appeal against the Brocklebank decision?

There is at the present time an appeal, which was lodged quite recently, to the House of Lords in the Brocklebank case. There is also a case starting to try to take to the Court of Appeal the decision of the Court of first instance which established the statutory Emit under the Act of 1920. There is a case starting for the purpose of reversing that decision; so that there are appeals in both cases. I understand there is also an appeal lodged on behalf of the Marshall Shipping Company.

These facts which, I understand, are now disclosed to this House for the first time, support the case made by the President of the Board of Trade.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2 [ Short Title ] and Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Northern Ireland Land [Advances, Etc.] [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That, for carrying out the provisions of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law relating to the occupation and ownership of land in Northern Ireland, it is expedient—

Resolution agreed to.

Borough Councillors (Alteration of Number) Bill

Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment: to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Supply

Report [23rd February]

Resolutions reported,

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1924–25

Class VI

"1. That a Supplementary sum, riot exceeding £2,096,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Pensions, and for sundry Contributions in respect of the Administration of the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, the War Pensions Acts, 1915 to 1921, and sundry Services."

Unclassified Services

2. That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Relief arising out of Unemployment, including a Grant?

"3. That a sum, not exceeding £1,250,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for a Grant-in-Aid of the Revenues of the Government of Northern Ireland."

"4. That a sum, not exceeding £2,895,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, to meet the balance of Civil Pay to certain Civil Servants who served with His Majesty's Forces during the Great War."

Resolutions agreed to.

As there is Private Business appointed for a Quarter-past Eight o'Clock, I will now leave the Chair, and resume it at a Quarter-past Eight.

Sitting suspended at Two Minutes before Eight o'Clock, until a Quarter-post Eight o'Clock.

Juvenile Unemployment

I beg to move,

My right hon. Friend made an admission which, frankly, filled me with grave apprehension, when he said that he could not state how many were unregistered, how many had been seeking work, and how many had been unable to find it. It is only reasonable to conjecture that the majority of these are between the ages of 14 and 16—the most impressionable age and the most critical time in the life of a juvenile. If we can deduce anything from the figures given, it is the melancholy fact that a large number of the youth of this country are suffered annually to perish, without any opportunity of real life. I will not weary the House by going into all the many causes that contribute to juvenile unemployment. Suffice it to say that probably the labour question and the condition of housing greatly influence the numbers and the demoralisation among young people. We know that, as trade improves and as housing conditions improve, so will the numbers of unemployed be absorbed and demoralisation decrease. But I hold that we cannot wait for that. We must act now. Demoralisation current amongst juveniles is greatly influenced by the widespread distress of unemployment amongst adults, and by the vast numbers who are in only casual labour. I am sorry to say that, because of this distress, parental authority is considerably more lax now than it was even 10 years ago. When you have unemployment in the home amongst the adults it is only reasonable to assume that the juveniles will be affected.

It is common knowledge that many children leaving school at the age of 14 are sent out into the streets to seek work. Those that find it are given a wage which, handled by a juvenile who has never handled money before, is of an amount to satisfy his need and desire to fulfil his own immediate earning capacity. But it blinds him or her to the outlook for the future, with the result to the parents that they, too, think only in terms of the child and of the present, and not in terms of what that child will become as an adult in the future. They look upon their children more and more as commercial assets. I hold that it is the duty of the State to safeguard these children at this most critical age of 14 to 16 years, to safeguard them from themselves, to safeguard them: from being exploited both by their parents and by certain types of employers. I am well aware that there are many employers who realise their responsibility to the juveniles in their employment and to the State, in so much that they provide facilities for education with beneficial results. Also there are many employers who, while fully recognising their responsibility, cannot give the necessary facilities. At this most impressionable age in their lives these children are thrown out into the streets, and it is not for us to blame them if in consequence they grow up lacking all the qualities that make for good citizenship. It is environment that makes children what they are, and if it he bad the disgrace is not theirs; the disgrace lies on those who are content to leave them at the mercy of their surroundings.

In reviewing the system which at present is in force to cope with this problem, I hold that the foundation of the system is sound. Where its limitations are serious it is in this: the majority who use the unemployment centres today, and the day continuation schools in conjunction with them, are between the ages of 16 and 18. Those who use the schools between 14 and 16 are those whose parents have confidence in their position, who have no worry, because there is a steady income coming into the home. But on the other hand, it fails to reach the mass of those whose parents live under the terrible apprehension of not knowing whether they are able to keep their jobs, and, what is still worse, those who are in chronic unemployment. It is for these children between the ages of 14 and 16 that we have the gravest concern. We know that individualism is the essence of education. It has been by individualism and thrift that we have built this great country, and it is only by individualism and thrift that we shall be able to carry it on. We hear on all sides that skilled workers are leaving this country, and I am bound to admit that under the present system it seems to me large numbers of the youth of the country are being brought up semiskilled, unskilled, idle and, in many eases, improvident. With all due deference to many who have studied this problem with greater intelligence, backed up by greater experience, I should like to offer a few suggestions. I suggest, as a preliminary step, that all children who reach the age of 14, and whose parents cannot afford to keep them on at school, or cannot be persuaded by the after-care committees to keep them on at school, should be registered in their local unemployment bureau, and such registration should carry with it the obligation to attend either a day continuation or a night continuation school. Further, I suggest that employers of juvenile labour should then have to go to the exchange for the services of juveniles, and they should have to arrange that employment in such a way as to enable the juveniles to attend classes. I should like to say that I regard 47 hours, both of work and education, as a sufficient working week for any juvenile between the ages of 14 and 16.

At present the teachers in these juvenile centres must either be enthu- siastic psychologists or must volunteer for this work for other reasons, inasmuch as those who take on the work of teaching at these centres are debarred from superannuation under the Education Act and also from pensions under the Civil Service. That is a very grave disability and one which must react on the future of these children. I ask the Minister of Education if he can see his way to remove this anomaly and thus enable the success which undoubtedly is being achieved at these centres to continue and enable those who take advantage of these opportunities to obtain the maximum of instruction. For apprentices who are coming forward to learn skilled work the question of day continuation or night continuation schools should be optional. I would point out that if we have not some form of further legislation to supplement the opportunities which are now being offered, if we are content to muddle along as we are doing at present, in 10 years time industry will be greatly hampered for lack of skilled workers and I appeal to employers up and down this country to take in as many apprentices as possible. If they are to look with any security to the future for a revival in trade they must have the necessary skilled hands to meet the demand which will be made. I also appeal to the trade unions to think less in terms of the present and more in terms of the future, to take a less monopolistic outlook in their skilled trades than they are doing, and to help the youth of the country by giving them more generous opportunities and openings in their ranks will not transgress upon the courtesy which the House has shown me further than to say that, whatever policy be put forward to stimulate the present system, it can only succeed if the central authority is to consist of one Government Department, and not two as at present. Employers, trade unions and parents must co-operate with every goodwill, and do what they can to carry out whatever policy may be designed. That policy should aim at quickening the senses of the juvenile of 14—at quickening the senses of initiative, of intelligence, of goodness and, above all, of courage to face the great responsibilities which he will bear in the future as a citizen of this great Empire. We are going to extend the franchise in the near future and it is only fair to the rising generation that we should make every endeavour now to teach them to realise the grave responsibilities which they will have to bear. Lastly, if I may say what I feel the present youth and the coming generation demand, it is less of the tonic of overburdened charity and more of the daily bread of underburdened justice.

I beg to second the Motion.

I feel sure I am doing the correct thing in complimenting my hon. Friend the Mover not only on the eloquent way in which he submitted his Motion but also upon his courage in tackling a problem which so many Governments of the past have burked. I shall endeavour to continue on the lines of the Mover's speech by keeping this most serious problem far above any party basis. In making a study of this problem the first hurdle which I encountered was the difficulty of finding out whose task it was to secure employment for the juveniles of our country. I found that in county districts the authority was the Ministry of Labour, but in the chief city or town of a county the authority was the Board of Education. Surely that is wrong. If hon. Members of this House or those particularly interested in this question, when exploring the various avenues which may lead to a solution meet with obstacles of this description, how can we expect the ordinary man in the street to attempt to tackle the job? In the newspapers one observes frequently letters and articles urging that the Minister of Education and the Minister of Labour should co-operate in this great task. I submit it is not the task of the Minister of Labour nor yet is it the task of the Minister of Education. It should be the task of the combined Government, of every Member of this House and of the whole population, and one of the first things we have to do is to raise such a storm in this country as will focus public attention on the problem. Then we may get some Government to undertake the job and do it properly. I am not going to weary the House with many figures, but in going through various statistics which have been given to me, I have been rather struck with how little we really can convey of the seriousness of this problem. We were told in the "Labour Gazette" of December last that during eight months of 1924 the Advisory Council had found places for 60,000 juveniles, but when one goes to the various centres of inquiry, one discovers, for instance, that one girl has had half a dozen or possibly more places during the eight months. Let us find out whether 60,000 juveniles have really had employment found for them or whether the same boy or girl has been counted half a dozen times. I find that in one city at the present moment, through employers and trade unions getting together, putting on one side all party prejudice and pique, they have to-day a city of 273,000 inhabitants with only 50 juveniles drawing the unemployment dole. That is something that I think they have a right to be proud of, but I am afraid that it left me rather cold when I found that it only related to juveniles between the ages of 16 and 18, and that only last week-end one could see juveniles between 14 and 16 years of age walking about in scores, trying to find work. Therefore, I agree with the Mover of this Motion that we must concentrate upon the juveniles between 14 and 16, for that is really the critical part of their life.

I am not quite sure that, to a very large extent, this House is not a great deal to blame. Immediately after the War we had certain schemes brought forward to deal with this very problem, and all sides of the House were most enthusiastic. Then someone started the old bogey of economy, and, to the undying shame of the Members of this House, under what I believe to be a false sense of economy, they scrapped that scheme of compulsory continuation schools. What I believe is really wanted is for all parties to cease playing with this problem. There is a word that is fast dying out of our language, and when it has gone entirely, I think we shall cease to be a nation. That is the word "compulsion." I believe that, as we have compelled these youngsters to go to school, we must also take our courage in both hands and bring about a compulsory system of vocational classes for juveniles between the ages of 14 and 16.

I do not believe that we are on the right lines when we say we are going to keep the children at school until they are 16 years of age. Most of the children of the masses, by the time they reach the age of 14. want to cease to be called schoolboy and want to throw off the shackles of school. We can see that in the continuation classes, because the majority of the scholars in them are the children of parents who are in sheltered trades, with the exception of a very few scholars whose parents may be out of work, mid who are just existing, not living, on what they can bring into the home, but the children go to these schools because, somehow or somewhere, they have in their being an intense desire for knowledge. These children always get on in the world, because the desire for learning and for knowledge is there. What happens to the others? One often sees the girls required to help in the house, where only too often the parents are quite content to let the boys drift on to the streets, in the hope of getting some job to bring in a few shillings a week in order to help the immediate needs of the family.

We must have these vocational classes, and then we must carry it a step further, and use that word "compulsion" again, and have compulsory apprenticeship. In the exploration of several hon. Members along this line, we have discovered some most extraordinary things, and I venture to give two instances. I have here a letter from a member of a large firm of shipbrokers, who are doing what they believe to be the right thing. This firm writes: offered to take the whole of the 120 boys as apprentices, but only a few of them came. The work is there for them, yet they refuse to be taken, and we find them refusing work, and the Ministry of Labour are still paying those boys the unemployment dole. In my opinion, that is not a right way to start a boy to look at his responsibilities in life. I have another case, in my own Division, where some years ago a charity was founded with the intention of providing funds for apprenticing boys. For the last 20 years that charity has been unable to get one applicant for a premium towards his apprenticeship—[An HON. MEMBER: "Where is that?"]—At Earl Shilton, in Leicestershire, in my own Division, and I hope before very long I shall be asking this House for a Bill giving power to change the deeds of trust, so that money can be given.

There is one bright spot that I have discovered in this question, and it is that much abused but very useful body of public servants, of which so many people to-clay are clamouring to get rid, namely, the boards of guardians. I find there is in London the bright spot amongst juveniles to-day, for there the boys and girls are educated, and one goes out to service and the other is apprenticed out to a trade. I was talking to the chairman of a board of guardians only the other day, who told me that, in the last TO years, the failures among their apprentices have been less than 1 per cent.

Following the lead given by my hon. Friend, I venture to make three suggestions. This question cannot help being locked up with the great question of unemployment, and I suggest that we should cease talking about our comprehensive insurance scheme. Let us get on with it, and let us give the old men and women a better and an earlier pension, so that they can retire at 65 and make way for juveniles to find employment. Each trade should be compelled by mutual agreement between the trade union on the one side, and the industry on the other, to take an agreed quota of apprentices. Lastly, we must speed up the Advisory Council for Juvenile Workers. Either we must put the breath of life into them, or put the fear of death into them, and get rid of them once for all. I know the cry will be raised that money is required. We found and borrowed money for the War to save civilisation. Looking after our own young is surely far better than fighting for other countries. When all is said and done, no money is too dear to save the youth of our own land.

Nobody in the House will be tempted to underrate the seriousness of the problem to which the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Harrison)—in a most excellent maiden speech, if he will allow me to say so—has addressed our attention. There is, indeed, no greater blot upon the civilisation of this country, no greater reflection upon our reputation for political prudence, than the fact that we are, apparently, content year after year to witness the degradation of what is, after all, the most precious asset of the nation, the human capital of its youth. A few days ago the Minister of Labour gave us some alarming statistics as to the extent of juvenile unemployment. He told us that, according to the registers of the Employment Exchanges, 70,000 juveniles, boys and girls, were on the unemployment register. But the real facts are far more serious than those figures would seem to imply, because, as everybody who has looked into the question knows, the unemployment register registers only a small fraction of those juveniles who are, in fact, unemployed. I had the opportunity, the other day, of seeing the results of an investigation which has recently been carried out by a very skilled observer in a very poor district of London—in Bermondsey—and the result of his very careful inquiry was to show, that for every juvenile registered as unemployed, there were two or three juveniles, in fact, unemployed, so that if we wish, therefore, to gain an idea of the real dimensions of the problem, we must at least double the number officially given us by the Minister of Labour. Quite apart from that, we have to remember that many of the juveniles who are employed are employed in blind-alley occupations, and after some years as messengers or porters they begin to claim a man's wage. They are not worthy of it, and they are thrown out of employment.

This is not a passing and superficial problem. We have to realise that this country will be faced for many years to come with a great extent of unemployment. We have, as we all know, an addition of 2,000,000 to our population since the War, quite apart from the annual addition which results from the normal operation of the birth rate, and it will be many years, indeed, before the productivity of the country and the growth of economic demand will be able to provide work for this additional population. Therefore, when we are considering the problem of juvenile unemployment, we should not flatter ourselves with the hope that we are dealing with an evil which is temporary, and for which temporary and occasional expedients will suffice. We have to build a plan for a generation, or for more than a generation, and we cannot be too careful as to the principle which we follow in doing so. I would add, that not only is this problem one which is likely to face us for a generation, but it is a very serious problem indeed. Unemployment has a very direct relation to delinquency. Only this afternoon I was speaking with a gentleman whose business it is to visit a particular prison. He told me every case of juvenile delinquency in that prison—and they were numerous—could be traced to unemployment, and if we look at the most recent Report of the Prison Commissioners, published only a couple of months ago, we shall find abundant evidence of the very serious effect of unemployment upon delinquency. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which is cause, and which is effect?"] The view of the Prison Commission, and of most governors, is, that unemployment is the cause of delinquency. Let me quote to the House a few words of the Governor of Durham Prison. Fe is speaking of the kind of juvenile prisoner with whom he has to deal now, and comparing him with the juvenile prisoner of a few years back. He says:

What is to be done? The two hon. Members who have spoken so well made a number—if I may say so—of very valuable suggestions. The hon. Member who introduced the Resolution took the view that the trade unions might help us in this difficult situation. I agree. I do not like to dogmatise on the subject, because I am painfully aware of my own ignorance, but I have been struck with this fact— and I will give it to the House for what it is worth. Speaking to many teachers who are dealing with juveniles in day continuation schools, or juvenile unemployment centres, I find that they take the view, first of all, that it is easier to find employment for girls than for boys, and, secondly, that it is much easier to find employment for boys in some trades than it is in others. One of the great difficulties which confronts them in finding employment for boys is that the avenue into certain industries, or forms of industries, is unduly, as they think, contracted by trade union regulations. I present this to the House—I have not verified it as a considered opinion—but many teachers, whose judgment I respect, feel that way. Let me give a few figures which to my mind tend to substantiate that proposition: they are taken from the most recent census.

9.0 P.M.

If you take the number of juveniles between the ages of 14 and 18 who are employed as messengers and porters in London you will find that they are 399 per thousand of the population. If you take the number of juveniles between the same ages who are employed as carpenters in London you will find they are 47 per thousand; employed as masons and bricklayers, 30 per thousand; as painters and decorators, 24 per thousand. It looks, therefore, as if the avenue into the occupation of mason, bricklayer, painter, and decorator was extremely narrow. I suggest this question: whether that avenue could not possibly be made a little wider, at any rate during the next few years, when we have so many juvenile unemployed. I suggest that the fact is one which deserves to be looked into. Let me take another obstacle which I think ought to be overcome. The teachers tell me—and I have no doubt it is true—that it is extremely difficult to get boys and girls into the particular occupation for which they were trained. A while ago I looked into a school which gives an admirable education, and for many years has trained boys and girls in commercial Spanish with a view to enable them to obtain commercial employment. When the time came not a single boy or girl trained in that school with a knowledge of Spanish could get employment. That looks as if there was not sufficient co-ordination in the industries on the one hand, and the educational institutions on the other. I suggest that we ought all of us —trade unions, employers, teachers, parents—put our heads together to provide effective machinery for placing the boys and girls in the particular employment for which their special form of education fits them.

We have in this country, very fortunately, a number of excellent voluntary agencies which attempt to deal with the children. There are the boy scouts and the various clubs; there are the Church Lads' Brigade and a number of girls' clubs. These are excellent institutions. I am informed that it very seldom happens that a juvenile who has been caught in the machinery of one of these agencies comes to any serious harm. But these institutions are not as strong as we should like them to be. I see my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education opposite, and I would make a suggestion to him. There is in the Education Act, 1921, Section 86, a provision which enables the Board to assist local authorities and private agencies which endeavour to provide social and physical training in the day and evening. My right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) was, I think, the first Minister of Education to take advantage of that extremely valuation section, which was framed for the express purpose of enabling the Board of Education to assist voluntary agencies which deal with the juvenile and adolescent population. I venture to suggest to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education that it would be very much to the general interest if he would make a liberal use of that Section. There are voluntary agencies crippled for lack of funds, and unable to employ paid organisers and secretaries, which, with a very small degree of help, could largely extend their work. Then, again, we are told on all hands that we ought to prolong the school age. What is needed here is, first of all, the development of our secondary schools. The President of the Board of Education made a most satisfactory announcement a day or two ago. This was to the effect that the Board was now considering proposals for no less than 240 secondary schools. I presume that will supply about 70,000 school places. But a secondary school is not built in the twinkling of an eye. My right hon. Friend will be lucky if he gets these 240 secondary schools in the course of the next 10 years—and that will be extremely rapid progress! Meanwhile there is this problem to face. The boys and girls who will go to my right hon. Friend's secondary schools are not the boys and girls who constitute the problem. They are quite a different set. It is very necessary to provide these secondary schools, but 10, 15 or 20 years hence the particular problem will still remain, and that problem will have to be dealt with. How is this? Some experts suggest that the elementary school age should be prolonged up to 15, and the London County Council some months ago intimated to the parents of London that they would be quite prepared to keep children in school until they had completed their fifteenth year, but I think I am right in saying that a comparatively small number of children have availed themselves of that offer. If my right hon. Friend is going to speak afterwards, he can correct me on that point. I think there has en some slight response; but, in any ease, I should not expect that many children, after the very long elementary school course to which they have been subjected, will be anxious for a further year. If I have a criticism to pass upon the elementary schools, it is that there is an insufficient degree of variety. There are a very large number of children under one, two or three teachers for a period of six or seven years; they get tired of them, and have learned all they have to teach them, and I very much doubt whether we should be conferring any great educational benefit on them by compelling them to remain in the same school far another year.

We can meet the situation to same extent by the development of central schools, many of which, especially in London, give a most admirable education, but I submit to my right hon. Friend that we shall never be able to deal with this problem upon a national scale unless we are prepared to operate the Act of 1918 and to see to it that our boys and girls, at this impressionable period of life, shall go as a matter of course to school for a certain number of hours per week, and that their schooling shall be combined with industrial employment. I am a believer in the mingling of earning and learning. When I was travelling in Canada last autumn I was very much struck by what the principal of one of the great Canadian Universities said to me, which was that no student in his university would regard himself as worth his salt if he did not earn his living during the long vacation. I met a very able and well-to-do student at one of those great universities who was proud of the fact that during the long vacation he had made a good deal of money by playing a violin upon a river boat. Nothing is more stimulating in America, I think, than the way in which the whole American democracy have accepted the idea of a mingled course of earning and learning during a large part of their adolescent life.

He was 19. The hon. Gentleman asks a very pertinent question in inquiring what age this young man was, but let me tell him this, that in New York State, the most populous, the most industrially-developed State in the American Union, there are 120,000 juveniles between the ages of 14 and 16 engaged in industry, but all of them attending day continuation classes—under the impulse of an idea which was started in this country. I say to the Government that if New York State can, with the consent and the support of the employing class, provide day continuation schools for their adolescent population between 11 and 16, then the problem ought not to be insoluble for us.

It is perfectly true there will be expenditure. The Minister of Education in the last Parliament gave me an answer as to the degree of expense involved. I was informed that, if boys and girls between 14 and 16 were brought into continuation classes in all our county boroughs, that assuming there was no accommodation now available, the expense, divided between rates and taxes, would amount to £4,000,000. You may say that £4,000,000 is a large sum, but I would remind the House that there have been economies of more than £4,000,000 on the education estimates since the Coalition Government went out of office, and that owing to the falling-off of the child population in our elementary schools due to the decrease of the birth-rate we may expect more economies, probably, for several years to come. I suggest, therefore, that it would be a desirable thing for the Board of Education to press upon local education authorities the development of day continuation schools. They are far less expensive than secondary schools—not that I should for a moment advocate any slackening in the secondary school programme—and they offer the only hope of dealing upon a comprehensive plan with the whole problem. May I finally remind the House that if we fail to solve this problem, if we fail to arrest the degradation of our young life which is now "going on, we shall, in effect, be experiencing a defeat on the field of civilisation far more serious and far more damaging to our future than the most ruinous defeat in a disastrous war.

I would like first of all to congratulate the Mover and Secondary of (his Resolution upon the facts which they have placed before the House. At any rate the new Tory democracy is a much more enlightened thing than the old Liberalism to which we have just listened. I have followed the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher) with considerable interest, and I must confess that I felt that he was dominated by a pessimism which cannot help to solve this great and serious problem with regard to the unemployment of our adolescent children. The right hon. Gentleman said one or two things with which I profoundly disagree. He mentioned as one of his solutions that voluntary agencies ought to be used much more than they have been, and he instanced the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guides. Neither of these agencies can provide any positive solution for the serious problem of the unemployment of children between the ages of 14 and 16. I firmly hold that, just as you have collective action and State action backed up by the finances of the State in your elementary educational system, so you have to have that State action with regard to children between the ages of 14 and 16. In this matter State action is the only action which can provide a solution. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities mentioned the American education system. The proud boast of the American education system is that it provides secondary education without class distinction of any kind whatever for all the people in the country. I observe that the right hon. Gentleman took into account the number of children who had tried to get jobs in London.

The difficulty of the American system is that the children do not attend because they want wages.

My point is that the education of our youths is a paying proposition, and we should provide free education for all people who are prepared to take advantage of it. I notice the right hon. Gentleman gave some figures and he said that out of every thousand who left the school 399 became messengers, and he gave some other figures.

I am afraid I have not made myself quite clear. What I said was that in London there were 399 juveniles per thousand employed as messengers or porters, and that there were only 24 per thousand employed as carpenters.

The right hon. Gentleman also spoke of masons and carpenters, but I think he will find that even the total of those in what you might call the skilled occupations do not amount to the number entering unskilled occupations. Therefore, the problem you have to face is not connected with trade union restrictions at all, but it is employment for the unskilled children leaving our elementary schools.

Why are they not skilled?

I want to take a step further. I have been very much interested in this problem for a long time, and I have tried to find out in a great number of our large industries what is actually happening. The deduction I make, which is fortified by people who have made independent investigation, is that in modern industry, in your great industries, the more you get the application of the machine, the more you are robbing what was once skilled work. The logic of the machine is to negative skill, and that is the tendency of modern machinery. Not long ago I went over Rowntree's factory, which, I understand, is one of the best conducted in this country, and what did I observe. I saw a young girl tying the red ribbon round the beautiful boxes of chocolates, and I am glad it was a red ribbon. I watched the operation, which was round the box, knot, and slip. In my own constituency we used to make an article right through, and we could put ourselves into the making of that article, and in our work we got a certain amount of education. Unfortunately, the introduction of modern machinery has altered all this. What I want to ask is, what educational value has the tying of red ribbon round chocolate boxes? Look at the large number of different operations in a boot factory, and more and more of this kind of thing is taking place. Therefore, I say that you have to consider this problem of the unemployment of the adolescent, not only from the point of view that the child is unemployed, with all its terrible evil consequences, but you have to take the long view, and to realise that the more industry becomes scientific, the less it provides an outlet for skilled manipulating operations.

You will have to find some other way. You have to take the adolescent from the streets and away from the evils which are surrounding him, and you can do that by keeping the adolescent in school. I differ profoundly from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities in decrying the raising of the school age both from the point of view of the effect it has upon the individual child and also from the point of view of the organisation of our educational system. You cannot organise your educational system to get the fullest effect from it if it is going to end at the age of 14 years. Why do we talk of employment for the children of the working classes so much? The great bulk of the people represented by hon. Members opposite and the upper classes are not thinking of employment for their children at 14 years of age. What they are thinking of is, "What is the best school to which I can send my child. What is the best public school to which I can send my child." I think that is the attitude of mind that ought to be adopted towards the working-class child; not what job we can find him, but what education can we give him. Therefore I strongly urge that one of the main factors in this problem is that you have got to raise the school age to the age of 15. If the parents cannot afford it, the State has got to come in with maintenance grants to support these children at school. I have been keenly observing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities. He has been talking of earning and learning. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman there is much more earning in his speech than learning, and that one job is enough at a time. It is one complete job to learn without having to earn. I have also been watching the new President of the Board of Education with deep interest and I would like to compliment him on the progressive spirit he has shown in the administration of his Department. But I cannot follow him, I cannot understand him. If I understand him aright, he was making a very fundamental error in a speech he made, which is quoted in the "Times" of 23rd January. The right hon. Gentleman in that speech said:

Continuation schools are certainly not the radical cure for the evils of the unemployed adolescent. But apart from that, it is a narrow interpretation of the term "vocational education" to merely apply that education to the needs of industry. After all, these young children are in the most serious and responsive time of their life. From the age of 14 to the age of 16 these children ought to have another vocation apart from industry. Apart from being cogs in the machine, they ought to have the vocation of being citizens. It is equally of educational advantage to them that they should enjoy literature, art, music, and it is of equally important value that they should understand, for instance, foreign policy, or receive education that will allow them to understand foreign policy. It is as much a vocational education to make these youngsters effective citizens as it is to make them an effective cog in the industrial machinery of this country. I, therefore, say the adolescent problem demands; first of all, the raising of the school age, the proper organising of the whole of our education system, not only to meet the demands of industry but the demands of citizenship—a broad liberal education as wide as you can possibly make it.

It is a sound economic principle to adjust your education system, not merely to the needs of your social system or your industry, but also to the needs of the growing youth. The recognition of growth is the right principle in education. This problem does not belong to the Ministry of Labour at all. I would like to see the Ministry of Labour clear out of the problem altogether. That problem can only be faced by the Ministry of Education, and the best way to meet it is to raise the school age. If to raise the school age a sum of £8,000,000 is required, it would be money abundantly well spent. It is a far more economical expenditure to develop these youths than any other expenditure I can possibly think of. I think that the smile and laugh of children is of fundamental economic importance. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed !"] But your social and education system is not agreed. You cannot have a truly democratic education system unless you have embodied in it equality of opportunity for the children of this country, and you cannot get equality of opportunity unless you give to these children, independently of the conditions of their parents, independently of the limitations of their home life, independently of these economic disadvantages, the right to a full, free education that can only be provided by State effort, State control and State finance. The time of individualism in education has long passed. It is an absolute necessity that the State must step in to control, advise, and develop our educational system. All your other efforts, boy scouts and girl guides, are merely negative. There is nothing about them—[HON. MEMBERS: "'Question!"] Well, put it this way then, it saves them from sins which may be brought about as the result of your modern capitalistic era. Raise the school age. You have got the school places now. There are, a million school places not filled. If you were thinking mere]y of the education of these children and developing it, you have got the school places to save these children from the terrible evil of unemployment, the terrible evil consequences of being thrown upon the street, and it is only the Minister of Education who can step in and save them. The Minister of Labour said compulsory effort is the only effort that is going to be effective.

Like the Mover of the Motion, I rise for the first time in this House to address it on a subject which, I suppose, all of us here regard as one of supreme importance, though, perhaps, there are others outside this House who do not so regard it. My claim, such as it is, to speak on this matter, arises, not from any expert knowledge, such as we have been given to-night, on matters of education, so much as from a long and, perhaps, somewhat intimate practical experience, in the intervals of professional life, with boys' clubs and with boys and their affairs; and I desire for a few minutes to present to the House a dispassionate view of the present position as viewed from this standpoint. The problem is one, as I think all will agree, which can only be fruitfully discussed and dealt with, with a view to affording a solution, in a spirit of complete calmness.

The first question to which we have to address ourselves is, what is the present position? The present position, as I view it, is, in certain respects, lamentable. We see boys leaving the schools every term without any definite training, without any serious ambition, and without any assistance to guide them through the rocks and shoals of casual employment. Of course, there are many boys of exceptional character who will succeed in face of every difficulty. There are others who, without being of exceptional character, have ambition, and somehow or other are ultimately found to achieve it, or something near it. The kind of boy of whom I wish to speak is a boy without ambition, without definite training, and without any real idea as to what he ought to be or can be; and he represents a not inconsiderable residuum of our infant life. These children are really the children at the dead end, and take it that it is they whom the House desires to help in every way for the best and it is for them that I wish to speak to-night. On the other hand, to be perfectly frank and fair with ourselves, we must recognise that the problem itself may be exaggerated, and that the effect which may be produced by any particular remedy that is proposed may not be so great as we suppose it will be.

In the first place, there must be at all times, probably, a large number of boys turned out from schools, whatever those schools are, who will wander somewhat languidly, as we may think, but I daresay quite happily, through life from job to job, and will never remain in one particular situation or set their life on one particular aim. In the second place, it is likely that a number of boys will emerge from any system of education who have no ambition; and there are many with different kinds of ambition. There are those who entertain lofty ambitions. They will probably look after themselves. There are those who have very modest ambitions, who live rather in the present than in the future; and they also may be regarded as a permanent feature in our life.

Again, there are those, perhaps, among us who, in considering and discussing these problems, are inclined to attach too much importance to a change of occupation threatened or acted upon by the young in their early life, or, indeed, by men and women at any time. We have to remember—and numbers of names will come to our minds if we think about it—that there are many men who have reached distinguished positions from very strange surroundings to begin with. Charles Dickens, as we know, began his life pasting labels on bottles in a blacking warehouse at 6s. a week. A man of my acquaintance, who rose to be a very successful mining engineer, commenced his earning life—and held the position for some time—in the refreshing occupation of picking flies out of cream. In one way or another our experience of life shows us that there will always be those, boys and men, who will change their occupation, not once or twice but many times, until they ultimately achieve something which is their own desire.

The problem is a serious one, because, as I have said, one's experience shows daily that there is a large residuum of children who are without any rudder in their early life; and, if one is to appreciate the problem, which the House is discussing to-night, of juvenile unemployment, I think one ought to appreciate to the full that the causes of juvenile unemployment are not temporary, but are, as has been said to-night, of a permanent character. Unless one does appreciate that, the discussion of remedies to be applied to the existing situation will lose some of its force. I think, therefore, that it will not be without utility, if the House will bear with me for a moment, if I just sketch, as it appears to me, the real position to-day from the point of view of cause. In the very fewest words, which, I hope, will not be less effective because they are few, I should like to enumerate the causes which seem to me to lie at the root of the present situation.

I deprecate the idea that bad trade lies at the root of the real trouble of infantile life. I think there are many other causes which will persist long after trade has revived. The first obvious cause of the present condition of child unemployment, or casual employment, or indifferent employment, is, of course, the immense concentration of population in urban areas, and the entire absence of drift, or even of trickle from the town to the country. Secondly—and here I agree very strongly with what was said by, I think, the hon. Member who spoke last—the development of machinery is playing an enormous and increasing part in creating unskilled work, or the want of skilled work. Take even such an ancient craft as carpentering, which is taught, I believe, in many schools to-day, in the hope, presumably, that boys will become so trained that they can earn a profitable livelihood and perform a useful function. Whether that be the object or not they are taught carpentry, and yet we find that the development of carpentry by machine renders the occupation of a carpenter to-day very much less secure and more precarious than it used to be. That is only an illustration in my own practical experience in dealing with boys, and I expect there are many others which might be given.

A third equally important reason, as it appears to me, is the disproportionate reward given to skilled work in some trades and to unskilled work in others. A parent to-day in exercising a wise choice for his or her boy or girl would necessarily take into consideration the reward which would be ultimately the outcome of sacrifice and self denial on his or her part in giving the boy or girl an opportunity of advanced education. That disproportion exists will not be challenged to-day. It is an element which, in framing any remedial Measures, one must take into account. A fourth reason is, I am satisfied, the great growth of joint stock companies. The old days when the employer was in a position to take, and generally did take, an interest in his youthful employés, have largely gone. The advent of the joint stock company has undoubtedly effected that unfortunate change in the relations between employer and employed. [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] Hon. Members do not all agree with me, but I express that opinion, and it is for the House to say whether it is right or wrong. It is open to one, at any rate, to have that view and to entertain some regret that the management of our business by joint stock companies should have to some extent divorced the personal relations of the management and the staff. There are other reasons which I need not elaborate which it is almost impossible to eradicate by any legislation one can think of. There is the natural reluctance of the parent in time of difficulty and distress to forego the immediate rewards of young labour. That can only be left to education and persuasion to remedy. Also there is an idea, which one comes in contact with so painfully and with a feeling of almost helplessness to deal with it, in relation to boys, the idea of parents, mistaken as it seems to me—again I am merely expressing a humble opinion—that any form of clerical life is superior to craftsmanship and trade. That idea, prevalent as it is, is responsible, I am satisfied, for the introduction of a great many boys, and it may be girls, in our clerical life without any real qualifications for it.

There are other reasons, no doubt, some of which are of a more or less permanent character, for the conditions we find to-day. It may naturally be asked of anyone who has the presumption to speak on such an important question, even with as little practical experience as I have, "What are the remedies which you propose?" A number have been suggested to-night, with most of which I humbly agree. I doubt whether raising the school age would in itself offer a solution of the problem unless it were accompanied by the provision that that school age should continue until suitable employment had been found for the boy or girl. That in itself is a large proposition, and might not find general acceptance. In my humble view until the introduction into your system of education of what in connection with penitentiaries in America is called the indeterminate sentence system, by which school is made an indeterminate sentence, I cannot see how you are going seriously to affect the problem of finding suitable work for children when they have to leave school. Secondly, to the President of the Board of Education I would offer this suggestion. Under the Education Act, 1921, Section 107, Sub-section (1), a local educational authority has power, with the approval of the Board of Education, to give assistance to boys and girls under the age of 18 with respect to the choice of suitable employment by means of the collection and communication of information and the furnishing of advice. That, in my judgment, most happy suggestion embodied in the Act, is somewhat restricted in effect by the provision in the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1923, Section 6, Sub-section (1), that that assistance contemplated to be given to children leaving school should only be given where there is a scheme in force which is described in the Act and is not to be given unless such scheme is in force. I should like to ask the President of the Board of Education what number of schemes are in force and how far the provisions of that Section of the Education Act have been given effect to. The present position, as I understand it, is that we have an attendance officer whose business it is to see that children go to school and we have a probation officer who is appointed to look after children who have got into trouble after they have left school, but we have no officer, as far as I am aware, whose duty it is in any way to assist parents or children after they have left school and as they are on the point of emerging into the more serious stage of having to earn their living.

I should like to see—it is my contribution to this matter—the development of officers whose business it would be to give such assistance and advice to parents and children, to follow them up and provide the Board of Education with a continuing stream of information, the lack of which to-day with regard to children between the ages of 14 and 16 is a serious handicap to the solution of this problem. Another suggestion I have to make might, I daresay, not be received with great welcome, because I believe there are many who have considered this problem and do not anticipate success from the suggestion. It is that there should be agricultural centres in the country where boys could, at any rate, receive an initial training in agriculture. I believe much good might he derived from that plan. I understand there are those who think from experience that boys introduced into such a scheme would not remain in the country in other words, that the scheme would be likely to be unsuccessful. On the other hand, there are in our great cities at present countless boys who grow up without any conscious leaning towards agricultural or country pursuits but with an undiscovered aptitude for them. Is it not the business of the State to give them the opportunity to discover their aptitude, whether the result may be that they seek work in this country, which may be unlikely, or seek a larger avenue in the Colonies and Dominions abroad? At any rate, by offering to boys, at their wit's end to know what to do, without any definite training or instinct and without any wise assistance to help them to decide, the opportunity of acclimatising themselves to country life, we shall, at any rate, be assisting towards a solution of the problem, at any rate, in a minor way. I have said more than I had intended, with the permission of the House. We are all agreed that this is a very important matter. My hope is that by the co-ordination of efforts, better still, perhaps, by a joint committee of all political parties, some serious attempt may be made to deal with a pressing and growing problem. I have no doubt that this Parliament will be memorable for many things, and I should like to think that it was going to be regarded in the future as the friend of the children of the dead-end.

I understand that the President of the Board of Education is going to speak, and I only wish to say a few words before he rises. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Harrison), who moved this Motion. It is a very unaggressive Resolution, but it has given rise to an exceedingly practical and, in some respects, vigorous Debate. His own speech was particularly thoughtful and lucid, and it certainly did one thing for us at the beginning of the Debate, and that was, to present an exceedingly good picture of the problem with which we have to deal. The hon. Member laid down a very distinct proposition. He said that it was our duty to safeguard children from 14 to 16 years of age. That was the very positive conclusion he had come to. He had not many actual practical suggestions as to how to do it, but. I think his principles were first-class.

If the hon. Member for Bodmin had been in the last Parliament, he would have remembered that there was one very important discussion on education last Session. A proposal was made by my right hon. Friend the senior Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw), who was then Minister of Labour, who made a bold but unacceptable attempt to insure children and to apply the insurance money to juvenile unemployment centres. The interesting thing about that discussion was that while the House would not accept this proposal, the almost universal argument against it was that it was an obstacle to the true solution, which true solution, from all parts of the House, appeared to be that of keeping the children in school longer. That view came not from one political party only, but from all parties. The Noble Lady who represents the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), who I am sorry is not here to-night, was rather inclined to denounce me because I did not at once adopt the policy of raising the school age to 15. That was the general attitude of the House. Although I was not afraid that the proposal of my right hon. Friend would have the result of stopping what the House thought was the true solution of the problem, I agreed with the House that the true solution was the raising of the school age, and providing education instead of work.

10.0 P.M.

The unemployment of juveniles cannot be dissociated from general unemployment. It is simply part of the existing industrial system. I think we are right to spend a great deal of sympathy on boys and girls and juveniles who are unemployed, but I am not sure that the greater tragedy is not to be found in certain classes of adults, the young man, for instance, who has learned his trade and then for three years is unemployed in many of the great trades of the country. A good many of the Measures that have been proposed for mitigating the evil do not really deal with the situation. They are simply stop-gap Measures, and poor palliatives. I do not object to them, and I hope that the President of the Board of Education, in the administration of his Department, will do as much as he possibly can, for instance, in stimulating the juvenile organisation committees throughout the country. I took a considerable interest in that matter. I pro vided, if I recollect right, a grant of £20,000 to be expended on juvenile education committees, and the grant to local authorities for enabling them to assist voluntary and other organisations in different areas was raised to 75 per cent. That is exceedingly valuable.

I think I am right in saying that in Liverpool a great deal is now done to assist juveniles, in boys' clubs and other such institutions, and that a certain amount of public money as well as private money which has been subscribed is used for that purpose. I sincerely hope that all that sort of work is going on as vigorously as possible. I trust that where the local authorities are keen about juvenile unemployment centres, they will be encouraged in every possible way. I agree with the hon. Member for Bodmin when he asks that the Board of Education should go on considering, as I know it is considering, whether it cannot bring under the superannuation system the teachers who are employed in the juvenile unemployment centres. There are a whole variety of things that can he done, but I do insist that they are only stop-gap Measures and that they do not deal with the real evil. The only thing that can deal with the evil is to keep the children out of the labour market, and the only way of doing that is to keep them in school.

I agree with anyone who says that this is a necessarily slow solution. Of course it is, but it is the only one which will be really effective. I do not ask the House to forego the palliatives. I agree that we have to go through a period, but I do say that this question should steel us and drive us to do our utmost to accomplish the only thing which is really going to solve the problem, and that is, to keep the children in school longer, as nine- tenths of hon. Members here keep their own children at school. Cannot a great deal more be done in this direction? I am not going to argue the whole question as to whether the school age can be raised now. I am disposed to think that public opinion is not yet entirely ready for it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] But that does not mean that public opinion cannot easily be made ready for it.

There is a provision in the Education Act, that any local authority which likes to raise the age of 15 can do so with the approval of the Board of Education. Cornwall is a county which is well known for caring a good deal about education. I wonder what would happen, supposing the hon. Member for Bodmin wanted to keep the unemployed children in Cornwall out of the labour market, and he took it upon himself to go round Cornwall to urge the local authorities to keep the children in school until the age of 15, by using their existing powers. He might get the assistance of his late opponent, Mr. Isaac Foot, who would probably help him. I am not known down there, though I have a Cornish name, but, if I could, I would be glad to help. But, joking apart, what I mean is this: Supposing the majority of Members of this House of all parties were to make up their minds at any rate to get a large number of experiments in raising the school age made by those local authorities who are most ready to do it. Perhaps the President of the Board would tell me whether any of them have actually made arrangements yet, but at any rate there are several who have been at least thinking of it, and some of them unexpected authorities such as those of East Suffolk and Bath—but supposing that the whole forces of political opinion were put into the work of encouraging localities to raise the school age, I believe that in a few years there would be a large number of cases in which they would do it.

There is one great popular obstacle to it, and that is the economic one, that the parents cannot afford it. But local authorities have a way out of that. They can give maintenance grants after 14 now if they like, and the State pays half the grant. Until the beginning of last year it used to pay 20 per cent., but now it pays 50 per cent. There is no reason why the local authorities should not take it upon themselves to make this expenditure, and what better expenditure could be made? Here we are talking about unemployment, but if you let the children go into the labour market you find yourselves with a large number of them unemployed very soon, or you find them driving out of the market other people, adults, who have to be paid unemployment benefit. If you do not keep these children in school by maintenance grants you are enabling them in the long run to force out labour, and you add to the taxes and rates which are necessary to keep the unemployed adults. Therefore it is actually cheaper, quite apart from the irresistible advantage of keeping the children after the age of 14, to spend the money on maintenance grants to make the parents ready and willing to keep the children at school.

The process of getting the children to remain in school for a longer period is a slow process, but it is the only one which in the long run is the remedy, and I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough was quite right in saying that the development of a wide and generally accepted system of education, with a great deal more free education than there is now, does affect the problem. I have always put great stress upon the question of free places. You may say that it only touches the margin of this question, but it does touch it. The tragedy of our present education is that even from the point of view of the very clever boys and girls they do not really get a chance now of advanced or secondary education. I have been down recently to a great city, and I went into the elementary schools in the poor districts, and asked how many children go on for any sort of education, even among the clever boys and girls, and the answer was practically none.

Newcastle-on-Tyne, but there are many other places in which the position is just the same. It is partly the problem of our system that there are not enough free places, and public opinion does not realise that the local authorities can, and ought where necessary, to give not only free places but maintenance grants also. That is the demand which should be made. It is not, because a lot of the children do not want to remain at school that this should not be done. To a certain extent what the hon. Member for Bosworth (Captain Gee) said may be true. Children at the age of 14 want to get out of school. Do they not want to get out of the private schools to which we send our children? If you took a vote of the children at 14 years of age the chances are that they would want to go.

What I said was that those who wished for education found time for it, but that the majority did not.

My point is really this, that the children of the workers, and of the poor workers, want just as much or just as little to stay in school as the children of the well-to-do. It is only a question of getting a chance. The sharp boy or girl is generally glad enough to stay as the sharp boy or girl of the well-to-do class is. But in all probability most children, if there were a vote, would vote for going out of school, but the parents among the well-to-do do not allow it, and would not dream of allowing it. What we have got to make up our minds o to do is to see that the community shall not allow it. My main point is this. There may be all sorts of assistance that may be given to the children who are in this unemployed position, but that nothing is going to be a remedy except giving them education.

I hope that the House will forgive my rising comparatively early on a Private Member's evening, but I have been asked many questions and I want to consider this problem more or less at length. May I, in the first place, congratulate the two hon. Members on this side who have made their maiden speeches this evening—maiden speeches which have reached a very high standard —and may I especially congratulate the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Harrison), who moved this Motion. The making of a maiden speech and the occasion on which it shall be delivered are questions which exercise the minds of new Members very keenly, and I am quite sure that the hon. Member for Bodmin will always feel that he could not have put the occasion of his maiden speech to a better use than by bringing up this question and treating of it in the way that he has done, with soundness and with a desire to emphasise points of agreement rather than points of difference. That has been the tone throughout the Debate. I cannot help telling the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) that I think his contribution to the Debate would be more helpful if he were not so very much attached to the particular points on which he feels divided from his opponents, and if he were not quite so anxious to emphasise those points to the exclusion of any point of agreement.

I want to consider the extent of the problem before us. I agree with the hon. Member for Bodmin and the hon. and gallant Member for Bosworth (Captain Gee) that the absence of statistics about juvenile unemployment, especially between the ages of 14 and 16, gravely hampers any consideration of this question. It a great pity that we are obliged more or less to guess at the extent of the problem. I warmly agree with what came from the hon. Member for Bodmin, and from almost every other speaker, that this is not a temporary, post-War, emergency problem. The one thing we can feel fairly certain about is that juvenile unemployment between the ages of 14 and 16, taking the average of the country as a whole, is probably not much more serious now than it was before the War. On that point I can give only the figures for London. They are the figures collected by the London County Council last summer in respect of children who had left school in the year ended 31st March, 1923, that is to say, of children who were from 15½ to 16 years. Those figures show that at that time 89·8 per cent. of those leaving school were employed, and that only 6·1 per cent of those who desired employment were unemployed. On the question of the extent of purely temporary employment, they show that 95 per cent, had been employed at some time since leaving sohool—that is the "in" and "out." I admit that these figures are not conclusive.

We have not to consider this problem from the point of view (which must be guesswork, largely a matter of approximate estimates), whether juvenile unemployment is particularly serious at the present moment, or is more serious than adult unemployment, or is more serious than juvenile unemployment before the War. We have rather to consider what are the means at our disposal for preventing juvenile unemployment, whatever may be its extent and the precise degree of its seriousness at the moment. Our real problem is the problem of the extent of our educational facilities, not the problem of the exact extent of the evil. Let us consider what our educational problem is. The figures which I am about to give may appear to differ slightly from the figures quoted by the hon. Member for Bodmin, but the differences are not serious and are all reconcilable. Of the 500,000 children who enter the publics elementary schools every year about 55,000 per year go to secondary schools. A certain number of the remainder, about 5,000 go to junior technical schools and—I give this figure with all reserve—perhaps 25,000 enter central schools. There is also a tendency for parents to leave children in elementary schools beyond the school leaving age, but when all deductions of this kind are made there are possibly not less than 400,000 children leaving school every year at the age of 14. What are the educational facilities for these children? Here again I cannot give the figures for England, but I will give the figures for London—a fairly typical area on the whole. Of the 70,000 children leaving school at 14 every year in London, about 20,000 continue to attend evening classes or part-time classes at technical institutes, and nearly 7,000 join some form of organisation, such as Boy Scouts or Girl Guides, and I am very far from agreeing with the hon. Member for Wellingborough in underrating the tremendous moral influence which this exercises on the character of the child.

Nobody said it was. That leaves about 43,000 unaccounted for who receive no form of further education. If we apply those figures to the country as a whole they indicate that possibly a quarter of a million of the children leaving school in this country every year have no further educational facilities at all or take advantage of no further educational facilities at all. How are we to deal with that problem 4 Inside that quarter of a million are practically all the juvenile unemployed, and there is a serious point in that connection which has not, I think, been brought out by any of the speakers. The serious thing is that, broadly speaking, the children who attend technical classes and part-time classes are the employed children and not the unemployed children. Various solutions have been suggested here to-night and for some time past by various bodies, and perhaps the most popular solution, at any rate on platform, is secondary school education for all. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Fisher) mentioned that I had stated that in all stages, from preliminary proposals to final plans, I had proposals for 240 additional secondary schools before me—school buildings—Which include replacements, and so far as I can calculate these 240 new secondary schools represent not more than a 15 per cent. addition to existing secondary school accommodation, and probably involve, at that, an annual charge on the rates and taxes of £1,250,000, and, as my hon. Friend said, in the present state of building in this country I do not see very much prospect of those 240 schools, this 15 per cent. additional accommodation, being completed for at least five years. Taking into consideration the fact, as the right hon. Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) has said, that any extension of secondary school accommodation which is really to benefit public elementary school children must involve more and more free places, a greater and a greater proportion of free places, I do not believe that you could double the existing secondary school accommodation in this country, that is to say, provide for another 75,000 children a year—and that would involve a building programme which is far beyond the capacity of the building industry during this generation —even if you made such arrangements as ensured that all those 75,000 children should come from public elementary schools and not private schools—under an expenditure of between £11,000,000 and £12,000,000 a year out of the rates and taxes.

That question reminds me of the really astounding statement, if I may so call it, of the hon. Member for Wellingborough, that there were sufficient places in elementary schools at the present moment to allow of the raising of the school age to 15.

I wish the hon. Lady would show me the buildings, for there are none of any kind, that I know of, which are not in the most urgent requisition at the present moment.

There are a million more places than there are children in the schools, and is it not a fact that we are just at the time when the lower numbers in the schools are having a freeing effect in the top classes, and that therefore this is the best time for extension?

Has the hon. Member read the Returns of the Board of Education showing the size of classes?

Has he read the Return of the Board of Education showing that one child in every five in this country is being taught in a classroom where more than one class is being taught—two and three classes? And yet he talks about sufficient accommodation to accommodate another million! Really, that kind of statement, in face of all the evidence, in face of the fact that there are hundreds of schools in urban areas alone at the present moment which are in part or entirely unfit for continued use as schools, astounds me, and the hon. Member says we have enough accommodation for another million children. Take the case of Bath, which the right hon. Gentleman opposite mentioned. He himself told Bath that they could not think of raising the school age to 15 unless they could provide additional accommodation. I think he will bear me out that that was what he told them, and Bath has never returned to the charge. The problem of accommodation is terrible at the present moment, even taking into account the automatic diminution of the number of children in the schools.

I have dealt roughly with the secondary school solution. There is also the solution about which my hon. Friends behind me are very anxious, namely, the provision of central schools, which will provide a course of full-time higher elementary education up to the age of 15. Central schools, I think, cost about one-half of what secondary schools cost to provide, but I am afraid they do not cost very much less that four-fifths of what secondary schools cost to maintain, and the building problem in regard to central schools is very nearly as great as in the case of secondary schools. It is perfectly clear we cannot expect to touch more than the fringe of the problem by a building programme for secondary school accommodation or central school accommodation in the immediate future. As I say, even the doubling of present secondary school accommodation would still leave 175,000 children unaccounted for. You would only touch the fringe of the problem, and I have already referred to some of the difficulties of raising the school age, which is the other solution put forward.

May I tell my right hon. Friend, who was my immediate predecessor at the Board, what the position is? Two local authorities, Carnarvon and East Suffolk, have submitted bye-laws, and I have approved them. There are no other proposals before me, and it is abundantly evident that no local authority in this country is prepared to apply compulsion, to employed and unemployed children alike, to remain at school. That is the real crux. There are plenty of local authorities who are anxious to apply compulsion to unemployed children, but they will not take the responsibility of saying that a child in the present period of uncertain employment, and restricted employment, shall not take what looks like a permanent job, when offered it. They will not face that responsibility, and I do not believe, however much missionary work the, right hon. Member for Central Newcastle or the hon. Member for Bodmin, or his predecessor, Mr. Isaac Foot, may do throughout the country, that you will ever get, for some time to come, local authorities prepared to take the responsibility of applying compulsion to employed and unemployed children alike. Moreover, is it the permanent solution of the problem which the right hon. Gentleman suggested it is? After all, it only solves the problem up to 15, and you have this danger. There are many industries, I think hon. Members opposite will agree, in which at present, at any rate, 16 is about the maximum age for apprenticeship. If you are going to keep the child at school till 15, unless you have what my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Kennedy) talked of, very much more efficient arrangements, for putting the child into employment when he leaves school, there is nothing clearer at the present moment than, that a child leaving school takes a good many months to turn round in. Unemployment is much worse to-day between 14 and 15 than between 15 and 16. Are you going, by raising the school age to 15, merely to transfer that period of adjustment from the period between 14 and 15 to the period between 15 and 16, which brings you up almost immediately against the last chance the child has of getting into more or less permanent employment in a skilled industry? Until you get the industry prepared to take the child in—that is to say, both employers and trade unionists—later than 16—unless you get that, it is no solution of the problem. May I tell the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) that that is what I mean in what I have said about the connection between the school-leaving age and employment. The hon. Member says the best preparation for life is a liberal education. I agree with him. But if you are ever going to be able to go steadily on and permanently giving a liberal education to the children of this country, you have got to convince industry, firstly, that you are giving the right kind of liberal education, and, secondly, that it is worth while leaving the child in the school to get that liberal education and not taking him at a younger age.

Many employers are now realising that fact, and are prepared—many foremen of works—some foremen of works anyway—are prepared to take later the child who has been given a secondary school education than to take him earlier at the age of 14 or 15. My point ultimately is this: that you have got to proceed in all these matters in definite agreement with industry, and with mutual recognition between the school and industry, between what the industry requires on the one hand and the efficiency of teaching that the school gives—whatever that teaching may be. People like the hon. Member for Wellingborough are too apt to discuss this ques- tion in a dramatic way. "Look," they say, "at the difference between the schools of the rich and the schools of the poor." [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] Yes, we can all draw that distinction. Remember, however, what it was that has made the schools of the rich possible. The liberal education that you get at the preparatory school, the public school and the university, is a training which is definitely recognised by the professions, by the law, for instance, as preparing a man for that profession, and, therefore, the path of liberal education is also the path of professional advancement. That is what has enabled the system to be built up. Unless you get a similar reconciliation between the ideals of the educationists and the needs of the industry—and such a reconciliation is perfectly possible—for it is taking place increasingly every day——

That is precisely the question upon which you have got to get agreement. You are getting it gradually by employer and trade unions at the present time. You are gradually getting employers who say: "If you will give that child the kind of education which you gave the last boy I took from you, I am prepared to take the boy at 16 rather than 15." The schools are winning their way with the employers every day. But it is only by trying to get that agreement, and not by the school saying: "I have nothing whatever to do with the employers or with whatever the employer may think," that you are really going to solve the problem of unemployment.

I think I have indicated in the last few remarks I have made the direction in which, to my mind, the real fundamental problem lies. That is the reconciliation of the best ideals of the educationalists—to use a word of which I am not fond—the best ideals of the educationalists, and the requirements of business, industry, and the professions. It is worth while making every effort to attain that. I would say to all sides of the House: "Do not let us emphasise our points of difference, and particularly do not let us hide from ourselves the points where we, or the class or occupation to which we may belong, may be failing to do something we ought to do." Employers fail very often in the methods by which they take their employés. There are still some employers, though there has been a very great improvement, who really employ less method and care in selecting their boy clerks than they would take over buying a horse or a dog. On the other hand, there still exists in the trade unions to-day, and it has been voiced from the other side in this Debate, an overmastering preoccupation which has been familiar for the last 50 years; the preoccupation, "Keep the boys back."

That has been the refrain of the speeches we have heard from the opposite side. All that the hon. Member for Wellingborough said about the increasing effect of repetition work in industry, the fact that nearly every trade was becoming unskilled, might have been said 50 or 60 years ago, was said 50 or 60 years ago by Ruskin, when talking of the conditions of his day.

It is in part true, and against it I would say this: I do not believe that any change that science has made or will make will ever really lessen the value of the human factor in any walk of life. That is the whole hope of education. If I did not believe that, I should have comparatively little hope for the future of education. But I will say this, that it tends to become the preoccupation of trade unions to keep the boys back; it is not so much a question of giving them a better education as "See that they do not come into competition with us at too early an age." [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] Believe me, I am not throwing stones. If I was a member of a trade union, with the present state of unemployment I should take very much the same view, it is inevitable. I do not mean that trade unions do not care, and care keenly, about improving education—of course they do—but there is that overmastering preoccupation of preventing competition at too early an age, and there is tremendous work to be done in inducing employers and trade unions in various trades and in all parts of the country to come to a definite agreement as to the age at which they want children in the trade, the inducements they are prepared to offer to juveniles to come in to the trade at a later age than they do at the present moment. Along those lines is the only permanent solution, and I believe you will get not only an acquiescence on the part of employers and trade unions, but an actual demand for a longer school life. It is only as you get agreement on those lines that you will be able to have a longer school life, and to provide for a longer education.

It seems to me that we all have a good deal to learn yet upon this subject. What I suggest is that we should come together in a conference to discuss the whole connection between the arrangements of industry for receiving juveniles, and the educational arrangement for keeping them at schools, and consider how those two things may be properly adjusted to the needs of every area and the needs of various industries. I believe the time has come for a real conference and a real determination amongst all the interests involved to come to a definite agreement. I am prepared to do everything in my power, and so is the Minister of Labour, to make such a conference a success, and to make it not merely a temporary conference, but a permanent advisory institution. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why is the Minister of Labour not here?"] He did come down to the House, but he has gone away with a bad chill.

We are prepared to do everything we can to facilitate the setting up of definite advisory machinery of that kind, and I hope we shall have the co-operation of hon. Members opposite. I am perfectly sure, and I think the tenor of my arguments has shown, that my right hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities was right when, in the Act of 1918, he laid such stress upon the part-time continuation schools, because it is only by an extension of the facilities offered by part-time continuation schools that you can, in a measure, deal more or less immediately with the demand for further education for all those children who now leave school and receive no further education at all. That is the only way in which you can cope with this problem.

May I point out here that it is open to any local authority to apply for an appointed day under the Act of 1918 and start continuation schools. But here again we find that local authorities will not face the responsibility of applying compulsion alike to the employed and the unemployed. How are you going to get the unemployed child who does not now take advantage of these facilities into a part-time education? I have one suggestion to offer, and the problem really resolves itself into this: How are you going to get the children between 14 and 16 years of age into juvenile unemployment centres in the same way as you now deal with the children between 16 and 18 years of age?

There have been various proposals. For instance, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle reminded us, one was the lowering of the insurance age. But there is one method, a simple method, which seems to me not to have been adequately considered. Local authorities have now power, as I have said, by bye-law, approved by the Board of Education, to raise the school age to 15. The simple method I refer to is to give local authorities a similar power to require the attendance of unemployed juveniles between 14 and 16 at the juvenile unemployment centres for part-time instruction. That is to say, such instruction as will not prevent them spending a certain amount of time looking for work and will not prevent them accepting employment as soon as they find it. That is a proposal which seems to me to meet some of the requirements of the situation. My Noble Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has been devoting a great deal of attention to this problem during the last two months. We are now just about to confer with local education authorities as to the proposal I have outlined and until we have worked out the practical implication of the scheme with the local education authorities and until we have worked out the financial implications of the scheme and the question of cost I cannot make a definite statement. But I can say this, that, provided we can work out a practical scheme on these lines, the Government are prepared to introduce legislation into the House this Session, as soon as possible this Session, for giving local authorities the power I have mentioned to require the attendance of unemployed juveniles between 14 and 16 at juvenile unemployment centres and I believe that attendance could be enforced by the school attendance officer. I do not say it is going to deal with a very large number of cases, but it is going to deal with a, certain number of children and it is going to provide, I hope, an incentive, which is far more important, to the child after 14 to go to technical classes, and to go to other more definite and practical forms of part-time instruction.

Are the centres to be placed under the Board of Education, or to remain under the Ministry of Labour?

That is one of the implications of the scheme that will have to be worked out. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Harrison), all that I can say is that teachers at juvenile unemployment centres will not in the future be debarred from superannuation, and that, either in the Superannuation Bill which I shall hare to bring in this year, or in this Bill, we shall provide fully for bringing those teachers within the superannuation scheme. There is just one final word of warning about the palliative scheme I have outlined, and that is this. As the House knows, at the present moment grant is being paid, and will continue to be paid until the 21st March, 1926, at the rate of 100 per cent. on juvenile unemployment centres. If this scheme that I have outlined becomes a permanent and ordinary part of the duties and functions of education authorities, I want to make it clear that I cannot commit myself after the next financial year to a continuance of the grant at the rate of 100 per cent. I think that inevitably, if it becomes one of the ordinary functions of the local education authority, it will come within the general grant system which applies to educational services. I want to give that warning because I do not want there to be any misunderstanding as to the financial side this scheme, as otherwise there might be. My last word is that I do hope that, as has been said, this is not going to be considered as a temporary and emergency problem, but as a permanent one, and I hope we shall get a permanent machinery of advice and assistance to the Board of Education and to local authorities, representing all in- terests, which shall attempt to adjust education and the school leaving age to the requirements of industry.

May I put just one question to the Noble Lord? He threw out a suggestion that a conference was to be held or convened between local education authorities and, as I understood him to say, employers of labour. We are somewhat in doubt as to what exactly the function of that conference will be. Will the Noble Lord just tell us a little more?

I am really afraid that, with only two minutes more, the hon. Member, as he did not understand me before, will not understand me now. I think, however, that an inquiry and conference is necessary between educational administrators, teachers, employers of labour, and trade unions, as to the extent to which the school-leaving age and the teaching given in the schools is adjusted to the requirements of industry, and how far the requirements of industry are adjusted to the school. I believe that that is not a subject for a temporary conference, but that there ought to be a permanent advisory Committee in co-operation with the Board of Education and the Ministry of Labour. I have thrown out the suggestion, and I hope that I may rely upon the co-operation of hon. Members opposite.

I shall only detain the House for one moment. The late Minister of Education was complaining that in his city it was very difficult for children of poor parents to get advanced education even if they wished to do so. In the town of Oldham, at any rate, where I live, I can give two instances. One is that of the family of a joiner, where there are three children, and all three have obtained their degrees. One of them is now engaged at the British Cotton Research Institution at Didsbury. Another case is that of the son of the caretaker of our Education Committee, who also has obtained a degree.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That it is desirable that all possible steps should he taken to prevent the demoralisation consequent upon juvenile unemployment."

Performing Animals (No. 2) Bill

Read a Second time; and committed to a Standing Committee.

Elizabeth Fry Refuge and Refuge for the Destitute Bill

Read a Second time.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay. ]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Major Sir Harry Barnston. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Three Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.