House of Commons
Monday, May 18, 1925
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Port of London Bill,
Lords Amendment to be considered To-morrow.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill [ Lords ],
To be read the Third time To-morrow.
Great Western Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Not amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
London County Council (Honey) Bill,
To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
Forfar Gas Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Salford Provisional Order Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order made by one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State under The Public Health Act, 1875, relating to Salford," presented by Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSON; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 181.]
Kilmarnock Gas and Water Provisional Order Bill,
Order [15th May] that the Bill be committed, read, and discharged:—Bill ordered (under Sections 9 and 16 of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered To-morrow.
Civil Service
Return ordered of a complete List of Civil Service Appointments held direct from the Crown.—[ Major Hore-Belisha. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
India
British Army Officers (Pay)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if the married officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, and the Army Dental Corps, serving in India, are still excluded from the increased pay and allowances, including quarters, recently granted to other branches of the British Army, by which exclusion a major of the Royal Army Medical Corps receives 75 rupees per month less than a senior captain of the Royal Engineers, and five rupees less than a captain of the Royal Army Service Corps; and if he will assure the House that members of these three Services will not eventually suffer by reason of the delay involved in the consideration of their case?
The case of the Services mentioned has been reserved for separate consideration in view of the possibility of changes affecting them in the near future. If the examination of the case reveals sufficient grounds increases will be given from such date as may be appropriate.
Will the Government take steps to accelerate this matter, in order to try to get some of the officers for the examination to be held in July?
The matter does not depend upon my Noble Friend the Secretary of State, nor the Government of India, because the considerations which I mentioned in my answer had reference to the possibility of changes affecting the Home pay rates of these Services, and until a decision has been come to in the latter case, it will be difficult to arrive at a decision as regards rates of pay for the same Services in India.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he is aware that the recent alterations in the pay of British officers serving in India have brought little benefit to single officers; whether he has received any representations on the point; and, if not, whether he will make any inquiries as to how the new system is working?
The revised scale, which constitutes a substantial improvement for the service as a whole, was designed primarily to benefit married officers, who, under the old scale drew no more than single officers, and it has never been represented by any responsible authority that the pay of the latter require improvement. One or two representations have been received from individuals relating to specific points of detail, and if my hon. and gallant Friend has a case of hardship in mind perhaps he will confer with me.
Is the noble Lord not aware that there have been recent reductions in pay, and do not these bear very hardly on Indian Army officers, particularly as the reduction is made in accordance with the fall in the British cost of living?
No, the alterations in the scale were designed primarily to benefit married officers. I do not admit, taking one consideration with another, that unmarried officers are worse off than they were.
Exchange and Currency
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if, in view of the partial restoration of a gold standard to this country, he is now in a position to state if a committee has been appointed to examine and report upon the present position! of Indian exchange and currency; and, if not, when such a committee is to be appointed?
In his statement of the 20th January, referred to in my reply of the 29th April, the Viceroy expressed the anticipation that, if the movement towards more stable economic conditions continued, the appointment of the Committee should be possible not later than 12 months from that date. As my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury remarked last week, the re-establishment of the gold standard in this country has removed one of the difficulties in the way of dealing with the question of the rupee exchange.
Does that mean that the Committee will be set up before next January?
I cannot do more than refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by the Viceroy. He must put his own interpretation upon it. What I said in my reply was that the fact that the gold standard had been re-established in this country would seem to fulfil one of the conditions precedent to the creation of a Committee to which the Viceroy referred.
Singapore Base
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of the Government of India to ask the Legislative Assembly to express its opinion with regard to the construction and maintenance of the Singapore base?
As I stated in the House last Monday, I am not aware of any such intention.
How do the Government expect to get the opinion of the Indian people on this subject if not through the Legislative Assembly?
It is a delicate matter. I think, if the hon. Member looks at all the circumstances, he will see that it really is not a matter which primarily concerns the Legislative Assembly. He is not suggesting, for example, that they should contribute to the cost.
Is it not a fact that some of the British Dominions are contributing, and is it not possible that the Indian people will be asked, and if they are, will they be consulted?
The question of a discussion in the Assembly is clearly one over which the Secretary of State has very little power. It is a matter for the Government of India and the Assembly to decide whether there shall be a discussion on the subject. So far as I know there has been no demand for it.
Sterling Balance
asked the UnderSecretary of State for India whether he can state the amounts of the sterling balance in the hands of the Secretary of State for India during the past five years; and whether interest on these balances is credited to the revenue of the Government of India and at what rate per cent.?
With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate in the Official Report a statement showing the amounts of the balance at the end of each month during the past five years. With the exception of the amounts held on current account at the Bank of England or by sub-accountants, the balances are invested in Treasury Bills or other securities, mainly short-dated, of the British and Dominion Governments. The rate of interest received necessarily varies with the yield on securities of this class. The statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT will show the actual amounts of interest received during each year. The whole of the interest is at present being credited to revenue.
Following is the statement:
STATEMENT showing Amounts of Sterling Balances in the Hands of the Secretary of State in Council of India at the End of Each Month during the Five Years ended 31st March, 1925, and the Interest received during each Year. Date. Home Treasury Balance. Gold Standard Reserve. Paper Currency Reserve. Sterling Balances. 1920. 31st Mar. 12,004,453 36,344,167 44,849,865 30th April 4,032,385 36,632,297 40,849,614 31st May 3,814,272 36,637,810 33,849,046 30th June 5,577,846 36,744,977 24,847,429 31st July 3,441,275 36,856,163 18,848,591 31st Ang. 4,981,225 37,179,138 14,349,766 30th Sept. 5,059,109 37,447,047 10,849,400 31st Oct. 4,057,174 37,740,317 8,347,427 30th Nov. 3,860,947 37,835,906 8,347,041 31st Dec. 6,111,142 37,909,563 8,349,761 1921. 31st Jan. 3,649,524 38,105,302 8,349,021 28th Feb. 1,865,643 38,287,221 8,346,056 31st Mar. 7,153,471 38,956,299 8,348,386 30th April 6,111,331 39,241,537 8,348,120 31st May 9,003,119 39,309,948 8,347,336 30th June 9,525,173 39,455,357 8,348,880 31st July 7,312,964 39,492,983 8,349,023 31st Aug. 5,274,900 39,629,469 8,347,034 30th Sept. 4,505,996 40,326,881 8,346,544 31st Oct. 1,986,817 40,192,335 8,349,459 30th Nov. 3,103,851 40,226,406 6,345,466 31st Dec. 3,600,340 40,293,582 5,848,683 1922 31st Jan. 2,212,949 40,387,074 5,849,583 28th Feb. 2,408,249 40,438,345 5,849,859 31st Mar. 8,873,853 40,141,907 5,847,227 30th April 7,144,616 40,392,707 5,846,240 31st May 6,246,797 40,436,698 5,848,210 30th June 5,844,079 40,502,493 5,845,492 31st July 9,471,968 40,580,087 5,848,863 31st Aug. 10,308,415 40,625,293 5,848,773 30th Sept. 10,769,546 40,034,842 5,848,325 31st Oct. 7,695,027 40,055,398 5,845,519 30th Nov. 10,881,952 40,090,864 5,849,990 31st Dec. 12,723,194 40,142,620 5,850,236
Date. Home Treasury Balance. Gold Standard Reserve. Paper Currency Reserve. Sterling Balances. 1923. 31st Jan. 13,446,214 40,210,376 5,846,304 28th Feb. 13,311,803 40,281,542 5,847,061 31st Mar. 9,615,019 40,047,489 5,847,773 30th April 7,113,279 40,118,469 5,848,453 31st May 7,034,399 40,144,687 5,849,788 30th June 11,904,047 40,205,988 5,845,806 31st July 14,103,601 40,203,996 3,847,205 31st Aug. 20,186,959 40,345,361 — 30th Sept. 22,253,387 40,000,000 — 31st Oct. 25,968,448 40,080,095 — 30th Nov. 25,577,424 40,100,083 2,995,677 31st Dec. 20,147,417 40,178,222 8,999,825 1924. 31st Jan. 11,572,927 40,220,701 13,996,443 29th Feb. 10,888,155 40,421,082 13,998,649 31st Mar. 10,212,137 40,000,000 13,999,480 30th April 12,121,120 40,040,217 13,995,733 31st May 10,515,985 40,101,607 13,999,927 30th June 11,276,900 40,137,572 13,996,782 31st July 11,082,579 40,165,451 13,995,753 31st Aug. 10,376,821 40,459,790 13,997,834 30th Sept. 15,390,826 40,000,000 13,997,929 31st Oct. 21,840,808 40,182,808 14,996,642 30th Nov. 19,417,118 40,238,974 15,995,973 31st Dec. 22,429,708 40,296,996 16,998,143 1925. 31st Jan. 15,650,655 40,344,934 19,995,545 28th Feb. 14,834,347 40,533,854 19,996,761 31st Mar. 13,328,778 40,000,000 9,996,116 Interest Received. 1920–21 187,858 2,266,418 1,242,033 1921–22 228,341 1,572,769 406,964 1922–23 153,151 1,882,625 147,010 1923–24 387,885 1,247,027 148,445 1924–25 480,454 1,581,057 519,566
Public Works Contracts
asked the Under, Secretary of State for India the total value of contracts for public works placed by the Government of India during the year 1924, and the proportion of these contracts placed with British, Native Indian and foreign contractors?
I have no information on the subject. It might be obtained from the Government of India if my hon. Friend presses for it, but as the number of petty contracts placed annually by the officers of the different provinces for the various parts of the works undertaken must be extremely large, its collection would probably be very troublesome.
Is there any machinery at the India Office whereby British manufacturers can get a fair share of Indian contracts as they arise?
The British manufacturer has exactly the same chance as he has had for the last four or five years. In point of fact, the British manufacturer gets, speaking from memory, something like 88 per cent. of the whole. The British manufacturer has to take his chance.
Passports (Arunchal Mission)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that a passport has been refused by the Government of India to Alokananda Mahabharali and Professor Jadunath Sinha, M.A., P.R.S., although the granting of the passport had been recommended by the sub-divisional officer of Deoghar, the district superintendent of police, and the deputy commissioner of the district; that the two gentlemen named are connected with the Arunchal Mission, which is a religious society and has no connection with politics; that the passport was required in order that the religious tenets of the mission might be placed before other nations; and if he will inquire into the matter with a view to a reconsideration of the matter?
I have no information in the matter. The grant of a passport is a matter within the discretion of the local government concerned and if that government has refused a passport to these two persons it no doubt had good reasons for doing so.
Will the Noble Lord make inquiries?
I shall be glad to inquire of the local government their reason for refusing the passport, but I cannot give any undertaking on behalf of my Noble Friend to interfere with their descretion in the matter.
Sikar
11, 12 and 13.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India (1) what is the annual revenue of the sub-state of Sikar; how much of this revenue is derived from the land; and what is the amount of money spent annually on public education and public health?
(2) Whether there has recently been an increase of 25 per cent. in the Land Tax levied on the peasants in the sub-State of Sikar; whether a number of them who expressed their unwillingness or inability to pay this increased amount were arrested and punished; and what was the nature of the punishments inflicted upon them;
(3) Whether 18 peasants in the sub-State of Sikar, who had assembled on 5th March for the purpose of proceeding to Jaipur to lay their grievances before the authorities, were arrested without warrant; whether any charge has been preferred against them in a court of law; whether two of their leaders have been flogged; and will he cause full inquiries to be made into the whole circumstances?
I have no official information in regard to the matters as to which he inquires; and, as I stated on the 4th May, my Noble Friend sees no reason at present to take any action. But if the hon. Member so desires, I will ask the Government of India to let me have any available information.
State Railways (Rates of Pay)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that on the Eastern Bengal Railway of India, which is a State railway, assistant sationmasters are paid the equivalent of 16s. 8d. to 25s. 4d. per week, stationmasters 26s. 8d. per week, clerks from 6s. 8d. to 13s. 4d. per week, and porters and pointsmen from 3s. 8d. to 5s. 8d. per week; and whether similar wages obtain on other State railways in India?
I have not the complete scales of pay of the subordinate employés of the Eastern Bengal State Railway, but if the hon. Member so desires I will obtain the information from the Indian Railway Board.
Civil Courts (Commercial Suits)
asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the delays occurring in the settlement of commercial suits in civil courts in India, causing losses to British shippers; and whether he is prepared to make representations with the object of insuring the effectual application of the Indian Arbitration Act, 1899?
This subject has been exhaustively examined in Chapters 12 and 13 of the excellent Report of the Civil Justice Committee presided over by Sir George Rankin which was recently presented to Parliament. The Report is now under consideration by the Government of India.
Opium Traffic, Assam
asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether he is aware that about 40 per cent. of the revenue of the Government of Assam is derived from the sale of opium; that the consumption of opium by the population of different districts of Assam varies between 173 seers to 273 seers per 10,000 of the population as compared with 0·9 seer per 10,000 in Bengal; that resolutions have on several occasions been passed by the Legislative Council of Assam for the prohibition of opium; and that the Governor-in-Council of Assam has so far refused to adopt these resolutions; and what steps the Secretary of State proposes to take to give effect to the wishes of the elected representatives of the people of Assam in the eradication of this evil?
In 1923–24 the percentage of Assam revenues derived from opium (licence fees and gain on sale proceeds) was about 18 per cent. (gross). The rate of district consumption varied from about 2 seers per 10,000 inhabitants to about 173 seers. The rate for the whole province was about 45 seers per 10,000; in Bengal it was about eight per 10,000. A resolution in favour of rationing of consumers was passed by the Legislative Council in 1921. The provincial Government have taken steps to reduce consumption; a system of registration has been introduced and an experiment is being made with rationing. The amount of opium issued has fallen by nearly 50 per cent. in the five years from 1919–20 to 1923–24. The Government of India has recently addressed inquiries to local Governments regarding the question of the high rates of consumption in some areas. The Secretary of State proposes to await the result of these inquiries.
Bengal Legislative Council (Members Unseated)
asked the Undersecretary of State for India if he is aware that the seats of two interned members of the Bengal Legislative Council have been declared vacant and new elections ordered; if he is able to state the reason for this action; and if he can state whether or not the nominations of the two unseated members will be accepted for the new elections?
I am aware of the fact stated in the first part of the question. The action was taken under Section 93 of the Government of India Act, which enables the Governor to declare vacant the seat of any member of a legislative council who is unable for a period of two consecutive months to attend to the duties of his office. I have not the information sought in the last part of the question.
Tanganyika
Ex-Enemy Restriction Ordinance
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that the ex-enemy restriction ordinance of the Tanganyika territory lapses on 4th June next, the Imperial Government will take such steps as may be necessary to renew the ordinance until Germany has become a member of the League of Nations and is thereby entitled to demand admittance for her nationals to the territory in question?
His Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that it is not necessary that this ordinance should be continued beyond the date on which it expires.
Dar-Es-Salaam and Msasani Harbours
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to appoint a fully-qualified harbour expert to report on the whole question of the improvement and equipment of the harbours of Dares-Salaam and Msasani Bay?
An inquiry of this nature has been suggested in the Report of the East Africa Commission and will receive full consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of setting up an expert committee to consider the question of the development and administration of all these East African ports?
I will consider that.
Kenya
Public Works
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is in a position to state, in regard to Kenya Colony, the extent and value of public works authorised or under consideration for the development of the colony and for the stimulation of British undertakings?
The assisted loan of £3,500,000 voted by Parliament last year for transport purposes with a view to developing the cotton industry in Uganda, and as far as possible in the Kavirondo district of Kenya, is the most direct instance of what I understand the hon. Member to have in mind. The allocation proposed is as follows:
Is the right hon. Gentleman's Department taking every possible care in the case of all available contracts there to see that British manufacturers are informed as early as possible of the possibilities?
Certainly; I will keep that in view.
Railway Construction (Native Labour)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has recently sanctioned, or proposes to sanction, under the Kenya Native Authority (Amendment) Ordinance, 1922, or otherwise, the conscription of 4,000 native labourers for work on the Thika-Nyeri railways; and whether such labour is recruited only or mainly in the reserves, thus penalising labourers in the reserves as compared with labourers for white settlers?
In view of the urgency of completing the railway through to Uganda as soon as possible, approval has been given for the compulsory recruitment of labour for railway construction generally up to a maximum of 4,000 at any one time, but there is no present indication that the full power will be used. The number so recruited up to March was 1,620, of whom only 59 are employed on the Thika-Nyeri work. This labour is recruited in the reserves, and it would not be possible to recruit men who are under contract to perform other work for Government or other employers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the withdrawal of these natives from their own lands is not detrimental to their own interests?
Yes, Sir. I would not sanction any withdrawal that would be detrimental.
In view of the serious nature of the admission which the right hon. Gentleman has just made, will he see that the House is given an opportunity of discussing this conscription of labour?
I think it would be desirable if I made a fuller statement on the matter on the Colonial Office Estimates.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what new railway construction is now being carried out in Kenya; how many native labourers are engaged on this work; and how many of these labourers are respectively voluntary and compelled.
The following figures are for March:
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what penalties are imposed if this industrial conscription is resisted by the natives?
This is all in pursuance of the normal administration under the Ordinance of 1921.
Have I not heard the right hon. Gentleman on public platforms denouncing conscription of labour in Russia?
I was never aware that I had the privilege of the hon. and gallant Member among my audience.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what penalties are imposed in the event of non-compliance?
They are in the actual Ordinance of 1921. I will look them up, and let the hon. Member know.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not give permission without being aware of what the penalties are?
What is the method of compulsion?
The House was made fully aware of the conditions of the Ordinance when it was discussed in the House.
Am I to understand that the Government are doing in our Colonies what they are afraid to do in England, namely, conscripting labour compulsorily?
Defence Force Bill
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has given his assent to the Kenya Defence Force Bill; and whether this Bill deals with the compulsory recruitment of natives as well as white settlers?
The Measure, which relates only to the white population, is still under consideration.
South Africa (British Preference)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can make any statement with regard to the preference on British goods entering the Union of South Africa?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the supplement to the Board of Trade Journal of 14th May, in which details of the proposed Union Customs Tariff are given. The classes of goods from Great Britain on which it is proposed to grant preference are specified in the Board of Trade Journal of 16th April. I may add that I understand that the Minister of Finance for the Union intimated in the House of Assembly on 5th May that the Union Government had no intention of entering into any trade agreement with a foreign country under which Great Britain would be placed, in a less favourable position than such foreign country.
Empire Settlement
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the recent statement of the Canadian official Press Bureau that of 190 persons who took up free grants of land in Canada during March, only 16 were from the British Isles; and, in view of this statement, can he take any steps to encourage more persons from the homeland to avail themselves of the Canadian offer of free grants of 160 acres?
In addition to the 16 persons who proceeded direct from the British Isles, the 190 persons included 106 Canadians, many of whom presumably came originally from this country. As regards the last part of my hon. Friend's question, I would invite attention to the scheme for the settlement of 3,000 families in Canada negotiated last autumn between the Dominion Government and the hon. Member for Rothwell, at that time chairman of the Oversea Settlement Committee.
How many families of the 3,000 have been settled?
I think about 1,600. If my hon. Friend requires the exact figures, perhaps he will give me notice.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the present position with regard to the West Australian migration scheme; and whether His Majesty's Government has reached a definite decision as to the revision suggested by the West Australian Government?
It is intended that the Western Australian scheme should be brought under the recent Agreement with the Commonwealth Government, and it is hoped that the Agreement will go far to remove the difficulties which have recently interfered with the progress of group settlement in Western Australia.
Malta (Trade Union Representation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the constitution of Malta requires that the trades unions shall have two elected representatives in the Upper House; that these two seats have been kept vacant for 10 months, on the plea of legislation excluding from representation Maltese unions affiliated to English unions; and whether, in view of the fact that the legal adviser to the military governor or the civilian staff officer share with the Colonial Office the responsibility of this suspension in the constitution, an inquiry into their action or inaction will be ordered?
I am aware of the provisions of the Constitution of Malta. I have received a full report from the Governor of the vacancies referred to, and understand that the Bill for the legal constitution of the Trade Union Council who under the constitution are to nominate the two members referred to, was due for Third Reading on 14th May. I see no reason for any inquiry into the matter.
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the reply of the right hon. Gentleman next "Wednesday, on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Paris Exhibition (British Building)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department who is responsible for the design of the British building at the Paris Exhibition; and whether the plans were selected as the result of an open competition?
An HON. MEMBER: Before this question is answered may I ask whether it is not a fact that this is far and away the best building in the exhibition?
The British Government Pavilion at the Paris Exhibition was designed by Messrs. Easton and Robertson. These gentlemen were selected by means of a competition carried out with the assistance of an assessor recommended by the President of the Royal Institute of British architects, and of the Royal Fine Art Commission. The Commission concurred with the assessor in recommending Messrs. Easton and Robertson's design.
On a point of personal explanation, may I say that this question does not suggest anything otherwise?
British Empire Exhibition
Evening Visitors (Admission Fees)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department why the custom introduced last year of admitting evening visitors to the British Empire Exhibition at a reduced price has not been continued this year?
I am informed by the British Empire Exhibition authorities that the number of visitors who in 1924 took advantage of the concession referred to by the hon. Member was not sufficient to warrant its reintroduction this year.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that people who pay 4s., 5s. or 6s. for admission to the Stadium also have to pay 1s. 6d. at the door and 1s. for a programme, which makes it almost prohibitive?
Elementary School Children
asked the President of the Board of Education if his Department has received any representations in favour of permission being accorded to elementary schools to visit Wembley in the interests of education; and what attitude he is taking up with regard to such visits?
I may refer my hon. and gallant Friend to Circular 1361, a copy of which and of the other documents referred to therein, I am sending him.
Russia
British Trade
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if his attention has been called to the marked fall in our exports for the month of April and to the marked increase in our exports to Russia for the first quarter of this year; and can he state the class of commodities in which the increases are greatest?
Yes, Sir; I am aware of the fall in the value of our exports for the Easter month of April. In the first quarter of this year, however, the value of our exports was greater than in the preceding quarter. The fluctuations in the values of our foreign trade can be seen in the table on page 1 of the current monthly accounts relating to trade and navigation. As regards our trade with Russia, I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures as to recent quarterly periods. It will be seen that in the last quarter the increase to which the hon. Member refers took place in our re-exports. In the exports of British produce there was a decrease as compared with the preceding quarter. I regret
Trade with Russia. — Value of Imports con signed from Russia. Value of Exports (Great Britain and Northern Ireland produce) consigned to Russia. Value of Re-Exports of Imported Merchandise consigned to Russia. £ £ £ April-June, 1923 … … 1,052,433 645,459 452,149 July-Sept., 1923 … … 2,866,050 420,693 761,152 Oct.-Dec, 1923 … … 4,490,005 780,010 617,484 Jan.-Mar., 1924 … … 2,263,264 308,596 677,134 April-June, 1924 … … 2,327,297 354,935 2,089,127 July-Sept., 1924 … … 8,755,794 1,142,182 3,067,041 Oct.-Dec, 1924 … … 6,647,974 2,014,995 1,524,442 Jan.-Mar., 1925 … … 3,245,996 1,502,393 3,097,418
Diplomatic Relations
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government is contemplating, or has decided, to open conversations with the Governments of France and other Allied countries, with a view of jointly breaking off diplomatic relations with the Russian Government?
No, Sir.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Government are satisfied that the Clauses in the trade agreement prohibiting propaganda against the British Empire have been loyally carried out by the Soviet authorities?
Can the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs say whether foreign Governments have approached His Majesty's Government with a view to joint agreement to change our policy towards Russia?
No, Sir.
that I cannot state the commodities in which the principal changes have occurred.
Is the hon. Gentleman watching very carefully the development of trade between Germany and America?
I am not answerable for that.
The following are the figures referred to:
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs stated to a, deputation led by an hon. Member opposite, on or about 12th May, that they were in fact contemplating this in association with other Governments?
I am not aware that what my right hon. Friend said was inconsistent with the answer that I have given.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to the speech of M. Tchitcherin, the Russian Foreign Secretary, reiterating the declaration made by him to the late Lord Curzon at Lausanne that the Soviet Government is ready to assume all the obligations arising from a complete resumption of diplomatic relations; and if, in view of this statement, His Majesty's Government is prepared to re-open negotiations with a. view to effecting a complete settlement of all issues still outstanding between the two Governments?
I have seen a report in the Press of the speech referred to. As regards the second part of the question, I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 11th March to the hon. Member for Brightside and the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull.
In view of the desperate state of British trade and the often expressed desire of His Majesty's Government to come to trade relations with Russia, will the right hon. Gentleman give his best considerations to this proposal?
My right hon. Friend has stated on former occasions that any proposal made will receive consideration.
Is this gentleman correctly described as Russian Foreign Secretary?
Horses (Export)
asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Report of the Departmental Committee set up to inquire into the export traffic in worn-out horses may be expected to be ready?
— England (excluding Monmouth). Wales (including Monmouth). Scotland. Cows and heifers in milk … … … 1,746,750 267,491 352,256 Cows in calf but not in milk … … … 250,500 31,056 46,439 Heifers in calf (with first calf) … … … 334,333 33,072 49,693 Other cattle, including calves … … … 2,764,098 467,029 716,009 Total … … … 5,095,681 798,648 1,164,397
I regret that records are not normally kept of the various classes of cattle slaughtered, but during the period 27th August, 1923, to 31st May, 1924, particulars were obtained of the number of cows and heifers slaughtered in the counties of Cheshire, Denbigh, Flint and Salop, as shown in the statement below. A statement is also appended showing the total number of cattle slaughtered in England, Scotland and Wales from 4th June, 1923, to 13th May, 1925.
I understand that the Committee hope to be in a position to present their Report about the end of June.
Agriculture
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
asked the Minister of Agriculture the numbers of cows and heifers in milk, cows in calf but not in milk, heifers in calf with first calf, and other cattle in England, Wales and Scotland, respectively, in June, 1924; and the numbers of each class of the above animals slaughtered in each of these countries on account of being affected with foot-and-mouth disease or exposed to infection as from 4th June, 1923, to date?
As the reply is in the form of a statistical statement, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the statement:
With regard to the first part of the question, the number of cattle in England, Wales and Scotland, respectively, as returned on 4th June, 1924, was as follows:
Cattle slaughtered in Cheshire, Denbigh, Flint and Salop from 27th August, 1923, to 31st May, 1924:
Cows … … 43,642 Heifers … … 10,528 Other Cattle … … 11,377 Total … … 65,547
from 4th June, 1923, to 13th May, 1925, was as follows:
Country. No. of cattle slaughtered. England … … … 100,663 Wales … … … 6,411 Scotland … … … 5,568 Total … … … 112,642
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the successful treatment of foot-and-mouth disease recorded in the case of the Aitkenbrae herd, in Isolation Case B, page 7, of the Report of the Commission on the Foot-and-Mouth Outbreak of 1923–24, the Ministry would be prepared to submit this treatment to a scientific investigation and test?
The aim of the Ministry is, if possible, to discover a preventive agent for foot-and-mouth disease and the efforts of the Department must be concentrated on that object rather than on trials of curative methods. Many successful curative agents are known, but they cannot be recommended for adoption in this country except in the most exceptional circumstances owing to the risk of spreading infection.
Sugar-Beet Factories (Foreign Machinery)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the amount of foreign machinery recently imported into this country in connection with the proposed sugar-beet factories?
I am informed by the companies now erecting sugar-beet factories that the value of foreign machinery recently imported is approximately £120,000.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to recommend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce the subsidy as there is to be an increased preference on sugar?
Is it not possible to secure the machinery in this country instead of going abroad to get it?
I do not believe that it is impossible, but my hon. Friend will remember that during the Debate on the Sugar Subsidy Bill I was careful to point -out that the provision requiring British machinery to be used in the factories was a new condition which had been imposed by this Government when it entered office, and that consequently I did not feel at liberty, without exposing the Government to a charge of breach of faith, to upset the contract already entered into.
What proportion does the total amount of the foreign machinery bear to the British machinery?
I will be very glad to tell the hon. Gentleman if he puts down a question. I cannot tell off-hand.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that his action in the matter is governed by Statute?
I am as well aware of my duties under the Statute as the hon. Gentleman is. My duties under the Statute are governed by the limit of 75 per cent., but I am not restricted in my latitude within the limits laid down by the Statute.
Is it not a fact that this machinery has been allowed to come into the country to be ready for the campaign of sugar beet production in October?
The Noble Lord had better put down a question.
Hyde Park, Street Lamps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when it is proposed to commence the erection of street lamps along the road in Hyde Park running parallel with the Bayswater Road?
( for the FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS): The lamp standards have been delivered, and work on the site will be commenced forthwith.
Does this mean that we are getting on with it straightaway?
The only reason for delay is that permanent refuges are being put up on the same road with lamp standards, and it was thought more economical to do both jobs at the same time.
Mercantile Marine (Seamen's Effects Insurance)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the effects of seamen on merchant vessels are seldom insured; and whether he will inaugurate a scheme of all-in insurance, whereby this risk will be covered by shipowners, and a fair amount of compensation paid in all cases to men and officers employed in the merchant service?
I am aware that the effects of seamen are seldom insured, but a compulsory scheme of the kind suggested in the question would require legislation, which I do not think it would be practicable to introduce at the present time.
Poor Law Relief (Widows and Children)
asked the Minister of Health the amount of relief given last year by boards of guardians to widows and children dependent on them?
My right hon. Friend regrets that this information is not available.
Contributory Pensions Bill
asked the Minister of Health what provision is made, or will be made, under the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill for the granting of pensions to women who have to maintain a sick husband, permanently disabled, and children?
Contributors under the National Health Insurance Act are entitled to the sickness and disablement benefits provided thereby. Contributors under this Bill must also be contributors under the National Health Insurance Act.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an opportunity to the House to record a free vote on the question of whether the new State pensions scheme shall be contributory or non-contributory?
No, Sir.
also asked the Minister of Health whether provision will be made for the grant of an old age pension to the casual worker who is 65 years of age and who, though an insured person, has not been able, owing to the scarcity of employment, due in part to age and infirmity, to pay one year's contributions under the new scheme; if not, will he consider the desirability of reducing the qualifying period during which payments must have been made to secure the issue of pension?
In the case of persons already insured under the National Health Insurance Act, health insurance contributions paid before the commencement of the new scheme will count for qualifying purposes. The qualifications are continuous insurance under the Health Insurance Act for a period: of five years, payment of 104 contributions and payment on average of 39 contributions during the last three years of insurance. In calculating the last condition, weeks of sickness and of genuine unemployment will be reckoned as weeks for which contributions have been paid. In these circumstances, my right hon. Friend does not consider it desirable to reduce the qualifying period.
Am I to understand that a casual dock labourer, who is genuinely unemployed but nevertheless unable to get sufficient stamps on his card, will receive any benefit to qualify for his pension?
I must ask the hon. Member to give me more particulars in such a case. If he has any case in mind I will go into it with him, and in any event must ask him to await the Debate on the Second Reading this afternoon.
Inter-Allied Debts
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the heavy burden of taxation in this country, the Government will consider the desirability of giving France and other of the Allied debtors a time limit in which to formulate proposals for the settlement of their War-debt obligations to us?
I do not think that, at the present time at least, any advantage would be gained by adopting my hon. Friend's suggestion, but he may rest assured that every opportunity will be taken to press for the settlement of the question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain agents of these debtor countries are taking advantage of this delay to promote propaganda in favour of the cancellation of these debts?
I am much obliged for the information.
Food Prices
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government proposes to take any action on the interim Reports of the Royal Commission on Food Prices?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has considered the interim Report of the Royal Commission on Food Prices; whether any of the recommendations have been accepted by the Government; whether he can state if the Government intend to place any proposals before the House for legislative enactment; and when the Report or its findings or the proposals of the Government are likely to be discussed by the House?
The Report is being carefully considered by the Government, and I will make an announcement as soon as the Government have taken a decision.
Germany (President Hindenburg)
asked the Prime Minister whether an agreement has been come to between the Allies to send felicitations on his election to the new President of Germany?
The answer is in the negative.
Are His Majesty's Government sending a message on behalf of this country?
The procedure usual in such cases is being followed.
Does that mean that we are not sending a message?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman likes, he can ascertain what is the usual procedure.
Are we sending the usual felicitations or not?
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Administration
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a resolution passed by the Bradford, Shipley, and district area war pensions committee asking for a Select Committee to inquire into the administration of the Ministry of Pensions, specially in reference to final awards, treatment, and treatment allowances, the pensions of epileptics and chronic neurasthenics, tuberculous ex-service men, the abolition of the seven years' time limit as applied to claims to pension by disabled men, widows and dependants, motherless children and after-care, and dependants' pensions; and whether, in view of the numerous changes that have been made since the issue of the Royal Warrant of 1919, in some cases on Departmental Orders or Regulations, he will appoint a Select Committee of the House to inquire into the whole administration of the Ministry of Pensions?
I can add nothing to the replies which I have given to identical questions addressed to me on this subject.
Albert Wylie (Glasgow)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Albert Wylie, 33, Hill Street, Springburn, Glasgow, is suffering from the presence of shrapnel in his body, and that at his final appeal on 24th April, 1925, he was disallowed on the grounds of his disability being non-attributable to service; and whether he will grant a special independent medical examination in this case.
The hon. Member is, I fear, under a misapprehension with regard to this case. The man's claim was in respect of a lumbar abscess and the decision both of the Ministry and of the Appeal Tribunal was arrived at only after full consideration of medical evidence obtained from hospital and otherwise as to the causation of the ailment. In these circumstances, there is no ground for adopting the suggestion in the last part of the question.
Will the X-ray plate taken at Stob Hill Hospital, Springburn, Glasgow, be produced as evidence as to whether there are parts of shrapnel in that man's body or not? I want to know now.
The claim is not in respect of parts of shrapnel in the man's body. There was an X-ray plate, which was produced before the tribunal, that body having adjourned in order to obtain the evidence. It is clear from that photograph, I understand, that this shrapnel has nothing to do with the abscess.
Since the answer to the last part of the question admits the presence of shrapnel, could the hon. and gallant Gentleman produce the letter from the man's application asking for consideration of his case? Is it not a fact that he is claiming against the presence of the shrapnel, which it is now admitted is in his body?
No, Sir. What he has been claiming for is the abscess. The medical board decided that this was not due to the wound which he had received. He went to the appeal tribunal, who, before confirming that, decided to have a report from the hospital and an X-ray photograph in order to make sure that this was not the result of the wound, and they confirmed the decision of the medical board.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answers, and the admission that there is shrapnel in the man's body, I propose to raise this subject again at the first opportunity.
Government Staffs (Candidature for Parliament)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed at an early date to cancel all Regulations prohibiting the industrial staff in all Departments of the State from becoming candidates for Parliament?
The question of the Parliamentary candidature of Government industrial employés is dealt with in the Report of the Blanesburgh Committee (Cmd. 2408), on which I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 11th instant to the hon. Member for Rotherhithe.
Parliament Act
asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to announce the Government's policy in reference to the Parliament Act?
No, Sir.
Leasehold Enfranchisement
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the large number of people who are desirous of possessing the ground upon which their homes are built and of the many thousands who have purchased houses as a consequence of the house shortage, the Government will consider the introduction of such legislation as will secure to these people leasehold enfranchisement?
It is impossible in the present state of public business to deal with this important matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give sympathetic consideration to a proposal for a Measure that would apply to Wales only?
That is a matter obviously which must engage attention.
Riff Army (Equipment)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has any official information showing that the military equipment of the Riffian Army has been provided from British sources and that British pilots are flying the Riffian aeroplanes; and whether he can make any statement as to what steps, if any, have been taken to prevent any breach of neutrality on the part of British subjects?
I have no information in regard to the first part of the question; the second part, therefore, does not arise.
Will the Prime Minister let me send him a copy of a French newspaper in which these allegations are made, so that there may be no mistake on the subject?
I shall be glad to receive any communication which my hon. and gallant Friend may send me.
Home-Grown Food
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing difficulty of our maintaining a balance of trade, he will consider the question of appointing a Committee to consider and report on what can be done to increase the home-grow food supply of the country?
I have been asked to reply. This question has been under almost continuous consideration during the last few years, and was the subject of an exhaustive report by the Agricultural Tribunal of Economists so recently as a year ago. I doubt, therefore, whether any useful purpose would be served by the appointment of another committee of inquiry. I am, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, in consultation on the whole agricultural position with representative organisations, all of which, with one exception, have been willing to place me in possession of their experience and knowledge. I hope that as a result it may be possible in due course for the Government to secure a wide measure of agreement upon positive proposals.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the only way to deal with the matter is to nationalise the land?
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the name of the organisation to which he referred?
The organisation that was unwilling to come to consult with me was the National Union of Agricultural Workers.
Is not the best line to follow to proceed to use Empire goods?
Was not the reason of the refusal to meet you the bad treatment which they had received before?
Finance Bill
Second Reading
asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Finance Bill; and how many days will be allotted to the Motion for Second Reading?
As at present arranged, we propose to take the Second Reading on Monday, 25th May.
Income Tax (Allowances for Children)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the estimated loss to the revenue for this year in respect of the relief granted for children under the Income Tax Act?
It is estimated that the cost to the Revenue, with a standard rate of 4s. in the £, of the present allowances for Income Tax purposes in respect of children is, approximately, £6,750,000 in a full year.
West River, China (British Interests)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he proposes to provide for the construction of additional patrol boats for service on the West River, in China, in any scheme of new construction now under consideration by his Department?
The whole question of protection of British interests in the West River is now under consideration.
Unemployment (Domestic Service)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the number of women in hotel, boarding-house and club services at present drawing unemployment benefits; and whether these women are permitted to continue to draw unemployment benefits when they refuse employment as domestic servants?
On 26th April the number of women in hotel, boarding-house and club services in Great Britain with current claims to benefit was 12,534, or 7·2 per cent. of the number insured. Such women would ordinarily be regarded as suitable for domestic employment, but each case of refusal of such employment must, of course, be decided on its merits through the statutory machinery of the insurance officer, court of referees and the umpire.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it against the public interest that these women should continue to draw public money while capable of getting employment in the same kind of work?
How many women are there living in these hotels and drawing public money for nothing?
I have not the figures to enable me to answer offhand. As regards the question of the hon. and gallant Member, my answer has completely covered his point. Normally they are regarded as suitable, but if they refuse the employment they have to prove their case, and the case goes before the statutory authority, which decides one way or the other on the merits.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the type of skill necessary for service in a boarding-house or hotel is entirely different from that required for domestic service?
Normally speaking, there is great similarity between them, but in certain cases there are differences. That is precisely the reason why, on refusal, a case goes for decision to the statutory authority.
Catering Trades (Wages and Conditions)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in possession of information as to the rates of wages paid in the catering trades; and whether he is prepared to set up a Trade Board?
I anticipate that the results of the investigation into wages and conditions in the light refreshment and dining-room branch of the catering trade will be available before long. I will then consider whether action in the direction suggested by the Noble Lady is desirable.
Vauxhall Colliery, Ruabon
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he can inform the House as to the success or otherwise of the special arrangements entered into between the management and the working miners of the Vauxhall Colliery, Ruabon, with a view to securing increased output and preventing the closing down of the mine?
I can only state the facts, of which my hon. Friend is no doubt already aware, that these arrangements began on 23rd March last, and that up to the present time the colliery has continued to work with normal regularity.
Is it not a fact that 650 men who would now be out of employment have been kept in regular employment, saving an expenditure of £7,000 in unemployment benefit?
I have said in the answer that up to the present time the colliery has continued to work with normal regularity.
Does not the employment of these 600 men mean that some other 600 men are rendered unemployed?
Proposed Five-Power Pact
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a memorandum has been received from the French Government in reply to the German proposals for a guarantee pact forwarded to the French Government by His Majesty's Government; what is the nature of this memorandum; what is the next step he proposes to take in connection with the proposed pact of guarantee; and when a statement will be made to the House of Commons?
A communication has been received from the French Government which is now being considered by His Majesty's Government. My right hon. Friend will make a statement to the House whenever the position of the negotiations warrants any addition to the statements already made.
Foreign Office Memorandum (Alleged Publication)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that the document appearing in an American newspaper, purporting to be a memorandum written by him for the Cabinet and republished in certain English newspapers on 11th May, is not a copy of a document which appeared in another American newspaper on 6th March, but a complete document, whereas the former publication was an incomplete summary; and whether he now has any further information to give the House as to the origin of this document and the circumstances of its publication?
I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies given to the right hon. Member for Aberavon and to others on 11th May. I have nothing to add thereto.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State referred to this publication in the "New York World" as a repetition of one that appeared in another newspaper, and that that is not the case? This is a very complete document. In the circumstances, does the right hon. Gentleman not feel inclined to make some statement about it?
The facts are as the hon. and gallant Gentleman states. It is only the difference between a copy and a summary, and does not affect the substance of my right hon. Friend's answer in the slightest degree.
Post Office Mail Vans (Horses)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has received complaints of the condition of the horses used for mail vans in the London district; and if he will give the name of the contractor supplying the horses complained of and inform the House what steps he has taken to ensure that only sound horses are used for the conveyance of His Majesty's mails in future?
A complaint of this kind was received recently, and fully investigated. No similar complaint is remembered for a number of years past. Horses used by mail contractors come under constant observation of the officers of the mail van service, both at post offices and at railway stations. The animals are also inspected in the contractors' yards.
Have the Government considered the advisability of doing this work themselves?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
Airship R33 (Awards to Officers and Crew)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has decided upon any mark of recognition to Flight-Lieutenant Booth and his crew for their efforts which resulted in the successful return of R33 to Pulham?
The following awards have been approved in recognition of conspicuous devotion to duty in circumstances of exceptional difficulty and danger:
Education
Secondary Schools (Entrance Examinations)
asked the President of the Board of Education the number of local education authorities which have a common examination for all entrants to secondary schools; and the number whose examination is at a lower standard for fee-paying scholars than for those competing for free places?
I am afraid the information asked for in the first part of the question is not available. As regards the last part, I may remind the hon. Member that under Appendix A (1) ( c ) of the Secondary School Regulations the minimum standard of qualification must be the same for fee-paying pupils and for free-place pupils. I am not aware of any area in which this condition is not complied with.
Is it not a fact that fee-paying pupils are admitted on a lower standard of marks than that obtained by the others?
Those whose names highest on the list are, of course, given the free places.
Building Trade Apprentices
asked the President of the Board of Education which local education authorities have put schemes of training apprentices for the building trade, under the arrangement of last year with the employers and workers, into operation?
I assume that the hon. Member refers to the agreement which is recorded in the Report, dated 12th January, 1925, of the Building Industry Committee. That Report does not contemplate that the local education authority should assume any responsibilities of a new kind for the training of apprentices; but urges the local building industry committees to consider, in conjunction with local authorities and employers, whether day technical instruction for apprentices of normal age can be more widely arranged. In a number of areas consultations have taken place, but I am afraid it is too early to expect any definite development in technical education as a result.
Acting Teachers (Certificate Examination)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to the future of the certificate examination for acting teachers?
I have had under consideration the recommendations of the Departmental Committee for the Training of Teachers on this matter. I think it is generally agreed that a written examination is not a suitable method of promoting uncertificated teachers to certificated grade, but I am anxious not to treat existing uncertificated teachers in a way which might be regarded as unfair to legitimate expectations. I have, therefore, decided to hold the certificate examination for acting teachers once more, and definitely for the last time, in November, 1926.
Schools (Ambulance Service)
asked the President of the Board of Education what conditions govern the supply of ambulances serving the needs of schools for children physically or mentally defective; and whether the supply of such vehicles is at the discretion of local education authorities or whether the Board lays down any obligatory Regulations?
The Board have made no conditions or Regulations for the supply of ambulances serving the needs of schools for physically or mentally defective children. I may refer the hon. Member to Section 88 (2) of the Education Act, 1921.
In view of the fact that in and around London ambulance arrangements are only provided for physically crippled children, and that mentally defective children are not so provided for, will the Noble Lord reconsider the matter, and urge the local authorities to do their duty?
The complaint generally made against the Board of Education is that it has far too many Regulations, and I am rather anxious not to add to their number if I can help it. Of course, I shall draw the attention of the local authorities to any real lack in this respect, if the hon. Member draws my attention to a particular case.
Jurors (Expenses)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the hardships imposed upon wage-earning people who are called upon to serve upon juries; and whether he will introduce a system whereby payment will be made from the national funds to all people called upon as jurors in respect to their loss of wages, and for railway fares and other out-of-pocket expenses?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Home Secretary on the 19th February last to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Bromley (Lieut.-Colonel James).
What is the effect of that answer?
The gist of it was that my right hon. Friend, while he would be very glad to see these out-of-pocket expenses paid, did not think the expenditure should be incurred at the present moment.
If there is any difficulty about getting jurymen, will the hon. Gentleman consult his colleague the Colonial Secretary and obtain information on how to institute a slave labour system, as in Kenya?
Does the hon. Gentleman think it is not possible to arrange for the general shopkeeper class to attend on juries instead of manual workers, who lose a day's pay thereby?
Is the hon. Member aware that manual workers generally make the best jurymen?
Is it not the fact that, to carry out that proposal, new legislation will be required?
It would certainly require the consent of the Treasury. It is really a matter of finance and hon. Members should make inquiries from the Treasury first.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland ordinary jurymen are paid 10s. a day, and some of them are quite glad to get it?
Licensed Premises (Disinterested Management)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is now in a position to announce the personnel of the Committee appointed to inquire into State management of licensed premises?
My right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to announce the personnel in the course of this week.
Gold
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if there has been any export of gold from Great Britain to Russia since November, 1924; and, if so, the amount of gold exported to that country?
The hon. Member will find the particulars he seeks in the monthly Trade Accounts, but I may mention that of the gold to the value of £2,289,000 exported to Russia in the past five months, all except £66,000 was in transit from the United States or from France.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has any information that Argentina will permit the export of gold as from 10th June?
My information on this subject is confined to what I have seen in the Press for the 14th May as to the annulment of the export prohibition after 10th June.
Suez Canal (Directorate)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the names of the British members of the Suez Canal directorate; the number of meetings of the board held in 1924; the period of the meetings; and the fees and expenses paid per representative for each meeting?
The names of the British directors of the Suez Canal Company are as follow:
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is an occasion when some of those economies mentioned in the gracious Speech from the Throne might be exercised?
The hon. Member is now asking about a matter of opinion, and I am sure he attaches no importance to mine.
Is it not a fact that the work of this Board is of the greatest importance to this country?
It is very important, of course, but we do not pay for it.
Transport
Trafalgar Square (Traffic Congestion)
asked the Minister of Transport if he has now considered the possibility of making a through road between Pall Mall and the Mall, running round the Duke of York's statue, thereby removing a great deal of congestion of traffic in Trafalgar Square?
A somewhat similar suggestion to that made by my hon. and gallant Friend has already received preliminary consideration by the technical officers of my Department, but before this suggestion can be further considered there are a number of other schemes which must be dealt with, of greater importance from the point of view of London traffic generally.
Is it not very important to try to relieve the congestion during busy hours at Trafalgar Square?
As I said in my reply, there are other still more important subjects which we have to consider.
Will the Minister promise that the peace and quiet of the exalted inhabitants of Carlton House Terrace will be in no sense disturbed?
District Railway (Staff)
asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of a reduction in the number of men employed in the working of the trains on the District Railway; and whether, having regard to the safety of the travelling public and the employés on the railway, he will cause immediate inquiries to be made with a view to securing protection to all concerned?
I am informed by the railway company that they have recently adopted the practice of starting their trains in the same way as trains are started on main lines where electric services are worked. The altered practice involves a transfer to the platform staff at busy stations of duties hitherto performed by the train staff, with a consequent increase in the number of the platform staff and a corresponding reduction in the number of the train staff. I am advised that this transfer of duties should in no way prejudice the safety of the travelling public or the employés of the railway company.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that almost all of these trains travel through tunnels or underground, and that the danger is more than 20 times in excess of that on a main line?
If the hon. Gentleman will be so kind as to send me this information privately, I will consider it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take notice that these trains, running sometimes with six coaches, are leaving the stations now with as many as four coaches with the doors left open, which is a danger to the public?
Dartford-Rochester Road
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the condition of the new road between Dartford and Rochester; whether any steps are being taken to improve its condition; and whether the contractors are responsible for carrying out such work without further charge under the terms of their contract?
On the embanked portions of Watling Street a certain degree of subsidence was known to be unavoidable, and consequently the surfacing first laid was of a temporary character. Certain of these lengths are now, however, fit to receive their permanent finish, and tenders are being invited for the work.
MILEAGE of Public Highways and Bridges in Great Britain, together with Expenditure out of the Rates in connection therewith, for the financial years 1913–14, 1921–23 and 1924–25. Financial Year. England and Wales. Scotland. Mileage of Classified Roads. Mileage of Unclassified Roads. Expenditure out of the Rates. Mileage of Classified Roads. Mileage of Unclassified Roads. Expenditure out of the Rates. Miles. Miles. £ Miles. Miles. £ 1913–14 … * * 15,150,000 * * 1,128,916 1921–22 … 28,894 123,512 30,160,000 7,695 17,205 Not available. 1922–23 … 29,373 123,037 28,160,000 8,030 16,870 Not available. 1924–25 … 30,063 122,673 Not available 8,623 16,323 Not available. * Classification of Roads took effect as from the 1st April, 1921. Classification of Roads took effect as from the 1st April, 1921.
Unclassified Roads
asked the Minister of Transport how much it would cost the Road Fund to give a grant of £10 a mile to all unclassified miles of roads now being kept up by the rates?
Approximately £1,410,000.
One-Way Traffic (London)
asked the Minister of Transport whether his Advisory Committee have considered the advisability of making Regulations for one-way traffic between the City and the West End of London during crush hours in the morning and evening?
The Advisory Committee are at present considering the question of one-way traffic and the provision of alternative routes so as to
Roads (Statistics)
97 and 98.
asked the Minister of Transport (1) what was the amount spent out of the rates on the roads in England, Scotland and Wales in 1913, 1921 and 1924, respectively;
(2) what was the number of miles of classified roads in England, Scotland and Wales in 1913, 1921 and 1924, respectively; and what was the number of miles of unclassified roads in 1913, 1921 and 1924, respectively?
As the answer is mainly statistical, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply:
relieve the traffic congestion on the principal streets between the City and the West End of London, and I must await their report on the matter before making any announcement.
Will my right hon. Friend call the attention of the Advisory Committee to the great success of one way traffic in Lisbon and other cities, and urge them to come to a decision in this matter soon, especially having regard to the traffic in Holborn and the Strand?
What may be good for Lisbon is not necessarily good for London.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the streets of Lisbon are very much narrower than they are here?
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in considering the question of one-way traffic, he will see that both sides of the safeties are used, instead of only one?
Is it not a fact that the Report of this Advisory Committee is not expected to be issued for some considerable time, and is it not possible to have an interim Report?
I do not think that would be wise at all. I think it would be better to allow the Advisory Committee to work out its own salvation in peace and quietness.
May we expect that salvation within a year?
Loans to Co-Operative Societies (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland the rate of interest charged by the Government for lending money to co-operative societies in Scotland; and whether, during any period of the advance, the loan is granted free of interest?
I will answer on behalf of my right hon. Friend. Under the scheme administered by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland for the advance of loans to agricultural co-operative societies to assist them in meeting capital expenditure in the establishment or development of agricultural productive co-operative enterprises the rate of interest charged is 5 per cent. per annum. The Board are prepared to grant loans under that scheme free of interest for a period of two years from the date of advance or, if the loan is paid over in instalments, for a period of two years from the date of payment of the first instalment.
East African Commission
asked the Prime Minister whether he has been able to consider the Report of the East Africa Commission; and whether, in view of the issues which this Report raises, it is proposed to give the House an opportunity for discussing the question of the administrative future of the East African territories covered by this Report?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on the 12th May, in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams).
Electricity Development (Rights of Gas Companies)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he will give an undertaking that, under the scheme of general electrification contemplated by the Government, the rights and undertakings of existing gas companies will be duly protected?
As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government's proposals in this matter have not yet been formulated. At present, therefore, it is impossible to say whether any questions will arise under the last part of his question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state when it is proposed to announce to the House what the Government propose to do?
The Government have got to consider the proposals which are now being sent up to them.
Old Age Pensions Committees (Economies)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the sum of £16,171 was receivable by the London Old Age Pensions Committee between the period 1st April, 1921, and 31st March, 1925, and that the expenditure was £12,124; and, in view of the large savings effected by the London Old Age Pensions Committee, will he issue the necessary instructions to ensure that like economies are practised by other old age pensions committees?
I assume that, in referring to the sum receivable by the Old Age Pensions Committee, the hon. and gallant Member has in mind the scale of fees fixed under the authority of the Act of 1908. This is a maximum scale and is not very appropriate to the special case of London, where local circumstances permit the employment of a full-time staff dealing with a large population in a compact area. The existing London arrange ments—for the successful completion of which we were largely indebted to the hon. and gallant Member himself—allow only actual expenses to be charged. If any similar case arises outside London we should certainly apply a similar arrangement, but I am not aware of any other area in which it has been found possible to employ whole-time staff. I will, however, have the matter further examined.
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister if any rearrangement of this week's business has been agreed to?
It was felt that it might meet the general desire of the House to give a little longer for the discussion of the Insurance Bill, instead of bringing the Second Reading to a close at a quarter past eight on Tuesday, and, after consultation with the different parties in the House, we Save decided to bring the Second Reading to a conclusion at eleven on Tuesday night, and then, on Wednesday, to take the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution for the Insurance Bill, and to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule for the first three Orders originally announced for Wednesday, namely, Criminal Justice [Money], Committee; Teachers (Superannuation) [Money], Committee; and Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Bill, Report and Third Reading, without prolonged Debate.
Thursday stands as announced before, namely, Ministry of Transport Vote, and, after eleven o'clock, the Report stage of the Money Resolution for the Insurance Bill, on which, I hope, after the discussion that will have taken place in the House, no protracted Debate may be necessary.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A; Mr. Beckett; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Webb.
Report to lie upon the Table.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) (Re-Committed) Bill
Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Fensions Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
In the course of my comparatively brief Ministerial career, I haves had to introduce to the House a number of Bills, some of which were of considerable importance and affected very large numbers of people, but I do not think that any of them could be compared with the Bill which is before the House to-day, either for the width of its range or for the permanence of the mark which it is likely to leave on the life of the nation, or for the intensity of its human interest. The very title of this Bill conjures up at once scenes of tragedy and of pathos, of sudden bereavement, of children deprived of their natural protectors and guardians, of failing powers in men and women who were once strong and vigorous and now, as old age has come upon them, have become helpless and dependent upon others. Every one of us cam recollect scenes like this, and everyone can recall the feelings of pity and sympathy which they aroused in us, and the longing that we had to do something to relieve sufferings which were so acute and so unnecessary. For me, this subject has, if the House will forgive me saying so, something of an hereditary interest. Not many years ago my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary (Mr. A. Chamberlain) expressed in this House the satisfaction which he felt in being able to put into operation one part of his father's policy in the institution of Imperial Preference, and to-day I, too, feel a somewhat similar satisfaction, because I see in this Measure only the development of an idea, which, if I may borrow words, generous words, which were once used of him by one of his oldest and bitterest opponents, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), my father did more than any other statesman to popularise in the country. The other day I came across a passage in what must have been one of the very last speeches that he delivered in this House, in which he foreshadowed the underlying ideas in this Bill so aptly that I hope the House will allow me to read a few words from it. On the 1st May, 1906, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, as he then was, speaking on the Budget, said: has since been extended and expanded, and, in particular, the 1920 Unemployment Insurance Act, which very greatly increased the number of workers coming within the unemployment provision of the previous Act, so that to-day it covers something like 12,000,000 workers.
Taking all those Measures together, it may be said that they have effected in that short space of time a profound and almost revolutionary change in the status of the workers of this country. But there still remains one gap in the chain, one link missing, because although the widow of a man, who has lost his life in pursuing his trade or occupation, is now provided for, accidents of that kind are, fortunately, so rare that, with the possible exception of the mining industry, they hardly enter into the calculation of the ordinary individual. But what the ordinary man does fear is the prospect of leaving behind him a widow, and, possibly, little children unprovided for, save for what they may receive from charity or the poor rate. Public interest in this whole matter has quite recently received a considerable stimulus, and it is largely in the speeches and the writings of a former Member of this House, Mr. T. T. Broad. I myself first had my attention particularly attracted towards it from a conversation I had with him, and although subsequent investigations have led me to think that the calculations on which he had based his proposals were open to serious criticism, yet I do think that the country is under a considerable debt of gratitude to Mr. Broad, and to my hon. Friend the Member for York (Sir J, Marriott) for the enthusiasm and the ability with which they carried on their campaign in favour of what has come to be known as "all-in insurance." There is undoubtedly something very attractive in the idea that you should have one single contribution on one single card, which would entitle the contributor to all the benefits comprised in the existing scheme of national insurance combined with workmen's compensation, widow's pension, and old age pension at an earlier age; and, in fact, the Government thought it was necessary to give a very serious and prolonged attention to the various suggestions that have been made for all-in insurance, and to see if or how far it was practicable to devise a plan of that kind.
We have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to include workmen's compensation in a scheme of all-in insurance. To begin with, the risks in various trades vary very greatly indeed. Either you would have to have a varying rate, in which case, of course, it could not come into a general scheme, or, if you have a flat rate, it is going to be very unjust to the safer trades, and we know a flat rate would take away from the employer, at any rate, one of the incentives which he now has to keep on continually endeavouring to reduce the risks, and, at the same time, to reduce his liability, and we think it is very desirable that that incentive should be maintained. Then, again, at present, under the Workmen's Compensation Act, the whole burden of the charge falls upon the employers. They accept it, and we do not see there is any justification for changing that arrangement, and for attempting to put part of the burden on to the shoulders of others. There are other difficulties, too, connected with this subject, into which I need not enter now, but, taking them altogether, they appear to us to be overwhelming.
4.0 P.M.
The difficulties of combining unemployment and health insurance are hardly less than those in connection with workman's compensation. The one scheme is administered by approved societies, the other by the Employment Exchanges, and each of those agencies, excellent though they may be in their own line, is unfitted, really, to carry on the work of the other. Even a combination of a single card, which certainly would be a great convenience, if nothing else, to employers, has been found impracticable, although it has been studied with very great care and with an earnest desire to arrive at a solution by a body of experts. I may tell the House that a very considerable amount of coordination has already been effected between these two schemes. For instance, the supervision and the checking of contributions in unemployment insurance is carried out by the staff of the Ministry of Health in conjunction with somewhat similar work which they do for my Department in connection with health insurance. It remained, then, for us to consider whether we should set up new machinery to administer the scheme or attempt to link it up with one of the existing systems of insurance. For reasons of economy, it is obviously undesirable to set up new machinery, and we chose to link our scheme up with health insurance chiefly on the ground "hat health insurance covers so much wider a field than unemployment insurance, including something like 15,000,000 workers against 12,000,000 workers covered by unemployment insurance. And so cur scheme is interlocked with the National Health Insurance Act. We propose to invite the assistance of the approved societies in providing certificates of the insurance by virtue of which a man will become entitled to benefits. So far as the payment of pensions is concerned, we have found that it would be more convenient to pay them through the Post Office, and we do not anticipate that the expenses of administration will be more than 2 per cent. of the contributions.
I will now come to the Bill. I do not think it is necessary for me to spend very much time in explaining its provisions. A very clear, though, of course, a general, statement was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in opening his Budget. The text of the Bill itself, together with an explanatory memorandum, and a report by the Government Actuary on the financial provisions, have been in the hands of Members for a fortnight, and the whole subject has been very freely discussed and commented upon in the Press. Therefore, I shall assume that the House is familiar with the main outlines of the scheme, which I shall only summarise as briefly as possible. That part of it which deals with the provision of old age pensions at an earlier age comes into operation after a waiting period of two years, and it enables an insured man, who satisfies the qualifying conditions laid down in the Bill, to come in for a pension of 10s. a week at the age of 65. At the same time, it provides that his wife also, when she arrives at the same age, will receive the same pension, and in the case both of the man and of his wife we have been able to sweep away altogether all those tests as to means, as to residence, and as to nationality which have hitherto proved so annoying and irritating in consequence of the inquiries which they necessitated.
The Section which deals with widows' pensions comes into operation next January. That, too, provides that the widow of a man who dies at any time after that date and who has satisfied the conditions in the Bill shall also be entitled to a pension of 10s. a week until she reaches the age of 70, when she comes into the old age pension, or until she remarries. If she has young children dependent upon her she receives an additional allowance of 5s. in respect of the eldest and 3s. each in respect of the others until they reach the age of 14. When the first child has passed that age, the next one succeeds to the 5s., and so on. If the mother dies, orphan allowances are payable at a higher scale, namely, 7s. 6d. for the first child and 6s. each for the rest. Those are the normal benefits of the scheme when it comes into operation.
Before I go on to say anything about the special provisions made for certain classes, I think, perhaps, I might just say a word to the House as to why we have fixed the figure of pensions at 10s. a week, a sum which is obviously insufficient by itself to keep a grown man or a woman with the necessaries of life. There are two answers, really, to that question. The first one, of course, is financial, and, in that connection, I would point out to the House that the rate we fix for pensions under this Bill will also have to govern the existing pensions which are charged solely upon the State, because it would be impossible to say that a man should receive an old age pension, let us say of 15s. a week at 65, and that when he became 70 he should drop to 10s. Whatever you start with you must carry right through. Therefore, if you are thinking of increasing the rate of pensions under the contributory scheme, you have to bear in mind that it carries with it that additional charge upon the State which would be necessitated by raising the scale of pensions for the existing old age pensioners under the Act. Even the burdens which are imposed upon industry and upon the State by our proposal of 10s. are so enormous that many people think they cannot be borne at all, and that alone, I think, would have made it impossible for us to go beyond the 10s., however much we might have wished to do so.
But the financial reason is not the only one. In our view it is not the function of any system of State insurance to supersede every other kind of thrift. We rather regard the function of a State scheme as being to provide a basis so substantial that it will encourage people to try and add to it and thus achieve complete independence for themselves. We believe that our proposal would have that effect. We believe that there are many people who to-day feel that it is perfectly hopeless for them to try and provide completely for their needs in old age, but that when they see this scheme they will feel that they have a foundation upon which it is worth their while to try and build something more. In that way we shall be encouraging those virtues of thrift which have done so much for the country in the past. We are sanguine enough to think, too, that employers also will take the same view, or, at any rate, some employers who have desired in the past, perhaps, to formulate some pensions scheme for their workpeople, but who have been deterred from it because they saw that the cost was absolutely prohibitive, and that they will be encouraged, in spite of the fact that they are compelled to pay contributions, to do something more. They will make a more modest proposal, perhaps, than they have previously thought of, but one which will be of practical value, and which will add immensely to the satisfaction and contentment of their workpeople. That, then, is a reason why we have set the figure of 10s. in the Bill.
Let me now come back again to the question of what I may call the preliminary or provisional arrangements. Everybody will agree that at the commencement of a scheme of this kind, you cannot ignore the large number of people who have not got it in their power to make the full number of contributions which the scheme requires; but whose needs are closely similar to the needs of those for whom we are thinking to provide. The Report of the Government Actuary shows that a youth who enters the scheme at the age of 16 will contribute sufficient to provide for his own benefit when he comes to receive it. But we have to think of the people who are over 16 to-day, people of 17, 20, 40, 50 and 60, and we have to Bring in the State to help out the scheme by taking on its own shoulders the liability in respect of those people. Then, in addition to that, we have decided to extend the exemption from the means test to those old people who have attained the age of 70 before the scheme comes into operation. And we are also giving widows' pensions and allowances to widowed mothers who have dependent children, where the husbands of those women died before the commencement of the Act, only in that case we provide that the pension of the mother will come to an end when the youngest child reaches the age of 14½ years.
All those concessions taken together pile up that colossal liability upon the State amounting to £746,000,000, to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made reference in his speech. Here I think I might make a small digression to try and make clear a point which I think has puzzled some hon. Members, namely, the explanation of how it is that a scheme which professes to be self-supporting would nevertheless cost the State a sum which is estimated at something like £20,000,000 a year, for an indefinite period, even after the 80 years of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken has passed. I think I might put it in this way. I have already spoken of the Actuary's report, which shows that a youth of 16 pays sufficient to provide for his own benefit. Yes, but that is only so if those contributions are paid into a fund, and are allowed to accumulate there with the interest upon it until the benefits are required to be paid out.
But that is not exactly what we are doing in the Bill. We have not put aside a capital sum of £746,000,000 to provide for these liabilities. What we have done is this. We say, "Contributions are coming in from fresh sets of people every day. As the first benefits become due, we will use these fresh contributions to pay those benefits." The result of that is that when the contributors whose contributions have been taken to pay those benefits themselves come to the time when they require benefits, their contributions are no longer there. Their benefits, therefore, will have to be paid out of the contributions of the next set of contributors. And so it comes about that we never catch up the deficiency which exists at the beginning, and that sum, estimated say at £20,000,000 a year, which lies for ever upon the back of the State, may be said to represent the interest upon this capital liability of £746,000,000 which we have assumed and for which we have not at present found the funds. I think I have made that point clear.
Now I would like to speak of four minor points in the Bill before I come to some of the criticisms which have been passed upon it. First of all, I have been asked what is the position of persons who axe uninsured, and who attain the age of 70. Are they deprived by this Bill of the rights which they now have under the existing Old Age Pensions Act? The answer to that question, of course, is in the negative. Those persons are in exactly the same position now as they were before, and, although they have no privileges added to them, yet nothing is taken away. The next matter to which I want to allude is one to which I do not think sufficient attention has been given. Section 3 of the National Health Insurance Act deals with medical benefits. Under that Act a person who is insured and has reached the age of 70 is entitled to free medical benefit for the rest of his life. But supposing he has only reached the age of, let us say, 65, and ceases to be employable, and therefore passes out of the insurance he loses that right to medical benefit. That is a considerable grievance. The provisions of this Bill allow that to be amended. The Amendment will be found in the Third Schedule of the Bill. This provides that in future insured persons who reach the age of 65 will have this boon of medical benefit for the rest of their lives.
Another point which has been raised by, I think, an hon. Member at Question Time to-day, is this: It is suggested that the qualifying conditions for old age pensions press very hardly upon certain old people who cannot afford to bear them, either through infirmity or from special conditions of their trade, and their being unable for some time to obtain employment. It is suggested that this will bear hardly upon them, because they will not be able to make the contributions which are laid down as being necessary to qualify for benefit. We are meeting that in the Regulations which will be issued under the Bill, and those Regulations will provide that weeks of sickness, or of genuine inability to find employment, count for the purposes of this Clause as weeks of contribution. I think, therefore, there will be no difficulty on that point.
The fourth point to which I want to refer is that of the voluntary contributor. In Clause 13 of the Bill it will be seen that persons who at any time in their lives have passed through insurable employment for a period of two years and have paid 104 contributions, even if they have gone out of insurable employment before the passing of this Act will now be able to come in as voluntary contributors. Some hon. Members may wonder what is going to happen to those who pass out of employment after the Act comes into operation. A man begins by being employed by somebody else and afterwards sets up for himself in a shop or something of the kind Under Section 2 it is provided that an insured man under this Act is also insured under the National Health Insurance Act. In that case, it is provided that a man passing out of employment in that way has a year's grace to decide whether or not he will become a voluntary contributor. That same provision will apply to the person who comes under this Act, and it will be possible, therefore, for everyone who has been in insurable employment to decide whether or not he chooses to take advantage of the benefit of this Bill by becoming a voluntary contributor.
There is the case of the person who is not provided for in the Bill; that is the person who is not insured at all. I have had a number of letters, as doubtless have other hon. Members, from people in quite a small way whose income is certainly comparable to the income of the people who come under this Act and they feel it a hardship and a grievance that they have been left out. I want to assure them that they have not been left out on any ground of principle. They have been left out simply because we could not find any way of fitting them in. It is extraordinarily difficult to fit a voluntary scheme into a compulsory scheme, because the moment you have a voluntary scheme you begin to have selection. That is to say those people who have a great deal to gain by it choose to come in, and those who have very little to gain choose to stay out; but the whole basis of a scheme of this kind is that you get an average. You get all kinds of risks coming in, and that is the financial basis of the scheme. If, therefore, you have to select the class of people coming in, people who are getting on in years, people who are married and have large families, people, therefore, who are likely to come upon the funds for benefit and upset the financial balance of your scheme the only way, so far as I can see, that you can provide for this would be by a varying contribution.
Think what that means. You have to find out in every case what is the age of the man, the condition of his health, whether or not he is married, if married, the age of his wife, whether he has children and their ages and number. In order to carry out work of that kind you would have to set up a completely new administrative machinery. There are other difficulties in connection with the collection of contributions and also in relation to the possible means limit. The people who write to me, and I think to other hon. Members who are interested, are not rich people. They are poor people, people of small incomes, but if you are going to say that you shall never admit people beyond a certain limit of income how are you going to find out what are the incomes of these people?
A great many shopkeepers, for instance, keep no account at all of their income. They tot it up at the week-end, and see what is in the till, and what are the proceeds of the week; they put aside a portion of it to continue trading, and take some as income, but what that exactly is it would be something quite beyond their powers to say, and also beyond the powers of those who administer the Act to find out. On all these grounds, although I do feel a very strong sympathy with this class, I have been reluctantly brought to the conclusion that it was not possible to include them in a compulsory scheme of this kind.
Are not these people going to have a means limit?
I am not quite sure whether my hon. Friend understands the point with which I have been dealing. All I say is that I do not think the class to which I have referred can be brought into the Bill with which we are dealing now. What I was going on to say was, whether it was not possible to make some other scheme of a voluntary character which would include these people. So far as I am concerned, I should like to give some further consideration to it. Surely a scheme of insurance which puts a heavy charge upon the whole community and only gives benefit to a certain portion of the community is not complete!
Hear, hear!
I should like to see, if it were possible to plan in such a way, that these people should be brought in. Let me come now to what I will call the major criticisms of the Bill. I begin with the Amendment on the Paper standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister of Health (Mr. Wheatley). If he be reported correctly, he described in a speech at Glasgow the present Bill as
"the most heartless, fiendish fraud ever perpetrated on a helpless people."
I suppose the Amendment which we have before us to-day may be taken as representing the ground upon which the right hon. Gentleman has framed his charge against the Bill. If so, I need not deal with the other points in the Amendment, for this is the only one which appears to me to be worth serious notice; the rest are simply "window-dressing." Would hon. Members opposite, if they were sitting on this side of the House, be prepared to stand up here, and say that they would bring in a non-contributory Measure?
I have advocated that for the last 15 years.
And give adequate benefits?
Certainly!
That is strange, because, as a matter of fact when hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office they had a scheme. I have an example here. It is in the form of a little pamphlet published about Election time. It has a picture on the front, in which I recognise the features of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden). This pamphlet appears to be one of a series entitled "Can Labour rule?" The question seems to take some answering, because this pamphlet No. 10, entitled
"'Pensions for the Aged and Mothers,' with an introduction by the Right Hon. Philip Snowden, M.P., Chancellor of the Exchequer."
In that pamphlet I find this statement:
"The Labour Government are not satisfied that the old folk should have to wait till 70 years of age, before getting a pension. I have a new scheme ready for next Session for reducing the age to 65. It is in connection with a comprehensive scheme of widows' and childrens' pensions. This scheme will be one of the greatest boons ever conferred on a needy and deserving section of the community."
What a contrast! What a startling difference between those words and those applied to the Government scheme of being the
"most heartless and fiendish fraud ever perpetrated on a helpless people."
On the other hand, you have the great boon to be conferred on "a needy and deserving section of the community." Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman opposite will allow me to ask whether he will be good enough to point out what is the difference the colossal, the fundamental, the overwhelming difference between this scheme and the other which justified the difference in the two descriptions. I will ask him another question. Was his scheme to be contributory or non-contributory? [ Interruption. ]
What does the pamphlet say?
The pamphlet does not say either. That is the reason I want an explanation. It is very important to get an answer to that question. because I think the "needy and the deserving" ought not to miss the opportunity of knowing what it is they have lost by the change in the Government from the other side to this side.
I only want to ask my right hon. Friend a simple question —has he ever read the reports of the annual meetings of the Labour party? All non-contributory.
Perhaps the hon. Member will wait a little longer. I was going to warn the right hon. Gentleman, because I do not want to take him at a disadvantage, that the question I put has already been put to his party, and an answer was given. It was in a Debate on another question in this House this year. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said:
I have taken out some of the figures, they are not figures to which I alone have access, from the actuarial tables in the report which every hon. Member has. I find that if our scheme had been non-contributory—that is, for these "inadequate benefits"—in five years the cost to the Exchequer would have been £31,000,000. If you add the costs of the existing old age pensions, it would have been £62,000,000.
Does the right hon. Gentleman in his calculations take credit for the savings that the Chancellor of the Exchequer took credit for in his speech— war pensions, health insurance, present contributions?
I am not taking any credit for War pensions. I am simply saying what would be the charge upon the Exchequer if our scheme were made non-contributory. According to our scheme the charge in five years will be £7,500,000, whereas if it were non-contributory, it would be £31,000,000; and in 10 years it would be £41,000,000, in 20 years £56,000,000, in 30 years £62,500,000, in 40 years £66,000,000. If you add the charge for old age pensions at that time—40 years—the total charge for pensions would be £120,000,000. It will be interesting to know how Members of the party opposite who shed crocodile tears over the burdens on industry, think that industry could support a burden of that kind. If the idea of hon. Members opposite is to give what they would call "adequate benefits," is will be seen that the charges I have mentioned are nothing like what they would impose. Who is it, really, who are guilty of fraud in this matter, the Government that have brought forward this sound, practical, moderate scheme, which can be carried into effect, or the party who are going about pretending to the people that they can give them double or treble benefits without asking them for any contributions?
I will pass on to what seem to me to be the only two really serious criticisms that have hitherto been offered to the Bill we have brought forward. The first is a criticism which has had a fairly good run, that our distribution of benefits is bad, that we are giving money to childless widows which they do not require, and which could be more advantageously given to somebody else. Of course, it is clear that the particular arrangement of benefits which we have provided is not an essential feature of the Bill. You could alter that without striking at any vital principle.
Hear, hear!
I am perfectly prepared to listen to any arguments which may be brought forward in favour of some different distribution, provided we do not alter the contributions or the burden on the Exchequer. I would like to inquire from those who criticise this particular provision—childless widows— what is their alternative? I have seen two. The first is to exclude all widows except those who have dependent children. If hon. Members would turn to Table 4 on page 15 of the Actuary's Report they will see some interesting information showing how, if you take any particular year—the year 1930 has been selected—widows and those who become widows in that year may be divided into two categories, those who have children under 14 and those who have not. It will be seen that, if this particular alternative which I am now dealing with were adopted, out of a total of 73,300 widows, no fewer than 46,900 would be excluded altogether from the benefits of the Bill. There is something which is still more interesting and pertinent to this point. If you examine the ages of the widows without children dependent upon them, and recollect that the figures include not merely women who have had no children at all, but also women whose children are all over the age of 14, and if you take out the two figures according to ages, you will find that of these widows who would be excluded from the benefits of the Bill 91 per cent. are over 40 years of age and 76 per cent. are over 50. Is it seriously suggested that you are going to take these women over 40, or possibly over 50 many of whom have brought up children, and have relinquished all possibility of entering into industry or other employment in order to do so, who probably cannot go back into employment— can you say that they shall be excluded from benefits for which their husbands have been paying for many years? Surely that would be going very much further than could possibly be justified.
On the other hand, it is said the people you want to get rid of from the scheme are not all the childless widows but the young childless widows. I think the figures I have quoted show that the young childless widows form a very small proportion of all the childless widows. I have had some calculations made, from which I find that if you assume that these young childless widows are given a pension only for 12 months after the death of their husbands, and if you assume that they will be allowed to come into old age pensions at 65 instead of 70, then the whole savings that you effect by cutting them out of the scheme will be about £1,000,000 per annum on the average in the next 40 years. I suggest that a saving of that small amount is hardly worth making when you consider the number of hard cases you would have on the border line. What about the widow who is 39½? What about the widow who had one child and that child has died? Is she to lose not only the child but also the pension? You can find innumerable cases of that kind; and I believe if you attempt to carry out a provision of that sort you will find the current of criticism running all the other way.
There is another argument which appeals to me almost more strongly still, perhaps I might call it the argumentum ad hominem. You ought to consider in this matter not merely the woman, you should consider in the first place the man. It is the man who is going to make the contribution, it is the man who is effecting the insurance; and surely the first thing a man thinks about is that you should make provision for his widow. He may have no children, he may never have any children, all the children may have died. The young man has had no time to save up money for his wife if anything should happen to him. Surely the first thing he wants to know is that something will be there for her when he is no longer there to look after her.
The second criticism is that this scheme is going to impose upon industry, at a time when industry is very hard pressed, an additional burden which is going to make it more difficult than ever for our trade to compete with foreign rivals, and this is, perhaps, going to increase unemployment even beyond what it is to-day. That is a criticism, a fear, so grave that no Government could fail to give serious attention to it. It is estimated that in the first ten years the burden which this scheme will impose upon employers will amount about to £10,250,000 a year, not a sum which, I think, they would trouble about much if it stood by itself, but it has to be taken in conjunction with the already heavy burdens of taxation, Imperial and local, and of all the other social services which they have to meet.
I think there are some considerations upon the other side which might at least be taken into account in weighing up the advantages and the disadvantages of a system like this. I believe, for instance, that every employer will agree that the psychology of the workman has a very marked effect upon his output, and that one will always get better results when men are satisfied and contented than when they are uneasy and restless. If that is so, surely employers ought to welcome this scheme which does so much to provide against one or more of those contingencies which are most dreaded by their workmen.
Then, again, this scheme is going to bring about a reduction of unemployment. I know it is said that 10s. a week is not enough for a man to live upon, and even 20s., which an old couple will get if they are both in receipt of pensions, will not be enough by itself to keep them. But we must remember that we have to-day, as I am informed, 350,000 men and 50,000 women over the age of 65 and yet going on working and earning wages. Why is that? I am sure many of them would be only too glad to retire, but they cannot afford to lose the income which they are getting from their work, and so they keep on working away in order to get enough to live upon, and while they are doing that they are keeping off young fellows at the other end who are finding it impossible to get work of any kind, and who cannot even get that training in habits of work which has been one of the great assets of our working men in the past. Out of that 400,000 men and women there will at any rate be a substantial number who will find that the additional income they get out of the pensions scheme will be sufficient to enable them to retire from work, and make way for somebody else, and perhaps they themselves will be able to eke out their 20s. a week by something which they may have saved for themselves or perhaps by doing an odd job here and there, and working a day or two a week, which will not make too great demands on their strength, but will just keep the household going. That is the second consideration.
There is a third consideration, and it is the effect this is going to have in relief of the rates. It is difficult to measure that, but I have made inquiries, and my Department estimate that there will be an immediate relief to the rates of the country of something like £3,000,000 a year which will gradually rise until it gets to something like £7,000,000 a year. That would be a substantial relief, and I hope the proposals of the Rating and Valuation Bill in regard to machinery may also give some help.
It will add 6d. on our rates.
I do not pretend that even all those considerations, when you add them together, are equivalent to the actual burdens we are going to put on the employers, but what I do say is that they will do something to mitigate the difficulty. The great drawback is that they all come into operation at a later stage, whereas the burden of new contributions comes into operation at once. The Government have been examining this matter, not only yesterday, but for months past, and have been trying to find some way of lightening the burden on the employers even at the commencement of the scheme. I do not think there is any secret in the fact that the direction in which we have looked for relief of that kind has been in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Fund. The present contribution to Unemployment Insurance amounts to 1s. 7d., l0d. from the employer and 9d. from the workman. That will be only as long as the deficiency period lasts. When that period comes to an end and the fund becomes solvent, at once 4d. will come off the employers' contribution and 3d. off that of the men. When that happens, from the employers' point of view they will have all the advantages which may be derived from this scheme without being one penny a week worse off than they are to-day.
We have been extremely anxious to find some way in which we could accelerate the advent of that very desirable state of things. It is not convenient to say any more at the present moment because the Government have not concluded their examination of the various ways in which this might be effected. I only want to say this to employers and to all those interested in the fortune of our trade, that they may rest assured that the representations which have been made will not be lightly turned aside by the Government, but will receive from us that serious and anxious attention which their importance justifies.
I think there are only one or two observations more I want to make, and they are of a general character. At first sight there would seem to be very little relation between this Bill and the Rating and Valuation Bill, the Second Reading of which I moved only last week. Yet different as those two Bills are in their character, scope and purpose, each of them fills its allotted place in that scheme of social reform which we have set before ourselves, and which we mean to pursue as long as we have the power and opportunity. It is not altogether an easy policy. It is not, perhaps, a policy which would command the enthusiasm of the thriftless or the ne'er-do-well, but I believe it is a policy which will appeal to all who value the character which has given this country its great place among the nations of the world, and those qualities of courage, independence, enterprise and self-reliance.
The power of any State to maintain its position as against its rivals, or to command the respect of foreign nations must depend always upon the character of the individuals which compose it. No social reform is worth undertaking which does not make its contribution to the building up and strengthening of that character. Our policy is to use the great resources of the State, not for the distribution of an indiscriminate largesse, but to help those who have the will and desire to raise themselves to higher and better things. You can find that policy in the Housing Act of 1923, you can find it again in the Rating and Valuation Bill where, for the first time, we are trying to set up a standard by which we can measure the ability of local authorities to bear their burdens, and the need that they may have of assistance from the central authority.
You will find it again in the Measure which I hope to introduce next year for the reforming of the Poor Law and for the more scientific and equitable distribution of public assistance. Pre-eminently you will find it in this Bill which, following on the two great schemes of insurance, combined with workmen's compensation and old age pensions under the existing Acts completes the circle of security for the worker. I, for one, am firmly convinced that when that security does come for the worker it will be welcomed by him with a satisfaction all the more lasting and profound for the knowledge that, although a helping hand has been stretched out to him it has, in the main, been won by his own efforts and his own self-sacrifice.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words
I notice that when he turned to the contents of the Bill the eloquence he spent in describing the needs of the situation did not relate very closely to the provisions that he makes in his Bill for dealing with those needs. The right hon. Gentleman was eloquent in his statement that the long chain of insurance we are now linking up and have given to the working class of this country has created a revolutionary change in the status of the workers. I wonder what is in the minds of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends. In the Budget speech, the Chancellor of the Exchequer reminded the House that 70 per cent. of the population of this country are in such an economic situation that legislation of this kind is absolutely necessary, in looking over the years and the ages that lie before us, looking indeed as far ahead as 80 years, the same class of legislation will be required. In other words, that means that notwithstanding our present knowledge of production and distribution of wealth, and making allowance for all the improvements which are likely to take place during the next three or four generations, the system of society for which the right hon. Gentleman speaks is absolutely hopeless, and, as far as one can see at the moment, within a century from now, three-quarters of the population of this country will not be in a position to support themselves without the assistance that is propagated in this Measure, and will not be in a position to support themselves without assistance of this kind. Could you have a greater and more abject confession of the absolute failure of the system of society under which we live?
5.0 P.M.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the early days of propaganda in regard to the scheme of widows' pensions. It is quite true that to-day every party in the House is in favour of the principle of widows' pensions. The party for which I speak were the pioneers of this policy. In 1908 when the annual conference of the Women's Labour League passed a resolution in favour of a widows' pension scheme, and at various times since conferences of trade unions and of the Labour party have passed similar resolutions. In those earlier days the right hon. Gentleman and his friends were still talking, as they are to-day, about the virtues of thrift and of self-reliance, and of that glorious spirit of independence which is the foundation of the Empire's greatness. They could find no money for widows' pensions, they could not find even a kindly word for widows' pensions. They could always find money for armaments—for the means of making widows and orphans—but there was no means of bringing relief to the unfortunate victims of the society for which they are responsible.
Like your five cruisers last year.
I would like to point out that the contents of the present Bill do not in any way give effect to what the public understand to be widows' pensions. The idea in the public mind, during all these years of propaganda, was that out of the surplus wealth of this country a sufficient sum should be taken to place the unfortunate widow and children of an industrial worker, who had died prematurely, in a position where the pangs of poverty would not be added to the pain of human loss. In all the schemes that have been mentioned, no proposal such as is the very heart of this scheme was even suggested. When one thinks of pensions—say war pensions, pensions to royalty, pensions to statesmen, pensions by private employers to aged workers for faithful service—one thinks automatically of gifts by grateful and Benevolent people for services rendered. One never applies the word "pension" to something that is to be purchased; one thinks of pensions as a gift, and I submit that what the right hon. Gentleman has done here is merely to take a popular label and use it as a description of a deceptive concoction. Even the father of Health Insurance, with all his audacity, did not claim that the Health Insurance scheme was anything in the nature of a pension.
As the right hon. Gentleman himself seemed to understand when he was making his apologetic speech for his Bill, this Measure is not likely to add a single penny to the income of the widow with dependent children. The proposal in the Bill is that the widow should have 10s. a week, and, if she has two children, that she should have in addition 8s. a week. The entire income provided for in this Measure for a widow with two children is 18s. a week. I want the House to remember that. Even the despised Mond scheme, which was so bitterly and successfully fought in London, provided for a widow with two children getting 26s. a week. Many Poor Law authorities to-day in the country, particularly in the large centres, are granting no less than 28s. a week to a woman with two children, and in many cases giving medical provision and an annual supply of clothing as well. Whether the right hon. Gentleman intended it or not, it is undoubtedly the case that, if she does not understand it to-day, in the earlier days of this discussion this poor woman was being led to believe, by the Press of the country and the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman's friends, that the 28s, that she is getting for herself and her two children to day was to be augmented by the provisions of this Bill.
When she read that the Bill was to give her 18s. a week, she never dreamt for a moment that the 18s. a week was to be the total amount of her income. She had been told that the Conservative party intended to do something for her, and she thought that this was the expression of their intention, and that she was to get 18s. a week in addition to the 28s. that she is now receiving. Hon. Members opposite smile with derision at the idea of a woman with two children getting 46s. a week. What a wonderful state of society, what an amazing state of society it will be when a working-class woman with two children is to have such a magnificent income! Why, the poor woman who has to spend that income feels that the 46s. a week which was in her mind in the earlier days of the controversy was just sufficient to give her that little extra comfort, that little additional power to educate her children, that makes all the difference between poverty and sufficiency. The present Bill is a mockery of her hopes. She is not to get 46s. under this Bill; she is not even to get the 28s. that she is now receiving; all that this Bill provides is that she is to get in future 18s. a week.
I am sure that no Member, even on the other side of the House, seriously believes that a woman can maintain herself on 10s. a week. If any employer of labour in this country were to suggest that 10s. a week was sufficient for female labour, he would be hounded out of the community. Such a suggestion could only come from a Tory Government. Nor is 8s. a week for her two children at all sufficient for the maintenance of those two children. I am told by one of the largest local authorities in the country that the bare cost to them of food for two children—food bought at wholesale contract prices, without any addition for service, or cooking, or anything but the bare food itself—is 9s. 4d. a week delivered as they can buy it at the gates of their institution. You would never get an authority like that to propose that 8s. a week was sufficient for the maintenance of two children. If the working-class woman can maintain two children on this figure, then she, and not the present occupant of that office, should be the Chancellor of the Exchequer of this country.
It is perfectly plain, therefore, that the ideal which was in the mind of the promoters of this policy, and which was probably in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman's father when he was one of its enthusiastic protagonists—the idea of getting rid of the taint of pauperism, of getting away from the parish and the board of guardians, of making her feel that citizenship of the British Empire was something that in no circumstances could be ever degrading—that ideal is not being realised in this Bill. The woman who is getting 10s. a week has to do one of two things—she has to go out to work, leaving her children to be cared for by someone else, or she has to go back to the guardians. If she goes out to work, there is no doubt at all that the 10s. a week which she is receiving will be ultimately-taken into account by the employers of labour, and her services may not be merely cheapened, but the cheapening of her services may be used to bring down the wages of all her fellow-workers. If she is not in a position to go out to work and augment her income, then she is driven back to the guardians'. Is she likely to find the guardians disposed to treat her as generously after this Bill is on the Statute Book as they are at the present moment? Will not the Government's scale tend to become the standard scale of boards of guardians in this country? Will not Tory guardians, particularly, ask themselves why, if 18s. a week is not sufficient, a Conservative Government should have inserted it in any Act of Parliament? Will they not say that this estimate of her necessity is made by the Minister of Health, whose duty it is to guide boards of guardians as to what the scale for a widow with dependent children should be, and will they not consider that every shilling granted to this poor woman in excess of the scale laid down here is a step towards Poplarism?
Whoever benefits under this Bill, it certainly will not be the woman with dependent children. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that a few young childless widows may benefit slightly, but I have no doubt, again, that the income which they will receive will be taken into account by their employers, in days when the supply of labour is so much greater than the demand for labour, and that the little pension that is being given to them, if it can be called a pension, will be used as a lever to screw down wages by the people engaged in the industries into which they may enter. I think the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to the credit he claimed for the probable reduction in local rates which would be effected by this Measure. I notice that one large local authority estimates that the reduction in their rate will amount to 3d. or 4d. in the £. I remember that, during my short term of office, I had deputations repeatedly from what are called the necessitous areas— that is to say, the areas that have suffered most by the trade depression and consequent unemployment—pleading with me to obtain for them from the Government some financial assistance. I admit that the rates in those areas will be reduced by this Measure, and that to that extent those areas will get some financial assistance. But I want to look at the other side of the ledger. How is the assistance to be given? By taxing the wages of the workers in the necessitous area, by bringing down the purchasing power of the worker in the necessitous area, by further handicapping local industries, and by consequently increasing the unemployment which is the root cause of all their difficulties.
I notice that the right hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the old age pensions part, pleaded that the 10s. a week for persons between 65 and V0 had been fixed at that figure because you could not make it more under 70 while it still remained at 10s. over 70; and he seemed to ask the House to believe that his heart was in a higher figure, and that he deeply regretted the insurmountable obstacle that stood in the way. But he did not tell us why he fixed the widow's income at 10s. There was nothing to prevent that 10s. going up. If there was an obstacle in the way of his increasing the income of the person between 65 and 70, he cannot claim that it stood in the way of his increasing the income of the widow under 65, to whom he is only giving 10s. a week.
Let me now ask the House to turn to the section of the Bill dealing with old age pensions. Here may I remind the House of the revolutionary change which is being proposed? The originators of old age pensions never thought of making it a contributory scheme. They did not take the view that is evidently held by the right hon. Gentleman and was expressed to-day, that the extravagance of the aged worker is responsible for his poverty, and therefore the remedy for his poverty is compulsory thrift. That is the view expressed from that box: to-day. That is the view that is expressed practically in the Measure before the House. The originators of old age pensions took a different view. Their proposals generated from the idea that the industrial workers are the heart of the nation, and that the least the community could do, out of common gratitude to that useful part of their number, was to give to the small section who survive till 70 years of age a small weekly income out of the common purse. They never thought of selling them an income at 70. They never thought of a superannuation scheme at 70 years of age. They thought of a real pension at 70 years of age—a contribution from the whole community—whether they were engaged in industry or not. Nor, I am sure, did the originators of old age pensions intend or expect that the Measure as they put it on the Statute Book was final in form, either in respect of age or of amount. It was a new departure in social policy and it was a new class of legislation. They felt that experience would be necessary, and they made it clear that in the future the scheme would be amended and extended. But they never dreamed that the price of extending the Measure would be to remove the non-contributory basis and to convert it from being a real pension into being a superannuation scheme.
The Bill proposes, not merely to alter the basis of old age pensions for people between 65 and 70, but provision is made for altering the non-contributory basis of old age pensions to persons over 70 years of age. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made that perfectly clear—much more clear than the right hon. Gentleman has done to-day—in introducing the Budget. So that we are in this position. The old age pensioners are, thanks to the legislation of former Parliaments, receiving as a gratuity from the State a sum of £26,000,000, which is steadily increasing. When the right hon. Gentlemen's legislation has run its course, and long before it has run its course, a large part of this sum will have been confiscated. When it has run its course the whole of it will have been conficated, and the whole maintenance of the aged poor will have to be done by the pennies of the poor. I wonder what would happen if a Member occupying a responsible position on this side of the House were, in his day of power or of office, to rise in his place and propose to undo the grants which have been made to our illustrious dead by previous Parliaments, Would there not be a great national noise? Would there not be an agitation which would put to shame the timidity of the people on these benches if we proposed for a, moment to cancel the expression of gratitude for services rendered which had been made by a former generation represented by the Parliament of the day? But evidently robbing the old man's poor box is nice light work for English gentlemen.
I wonder how many aged workers will reap benefit from this scheme? The right hon. Gentleman gave us the number of those at present engaged in industry, and he gave a picture of the day when they will be able to retire from the industry that they no longer love into a glorious old age where, on the munificent provisions of this Measure, they would be able to spend their days in that ease and comfort which hon. Members enjoy to-day. How many old men in this country can live on 10s. a week? How many industrial workers have the means of providing out of their wages supplementation of the 10s. contemplated in this Measure? As a matter of fact, we all know what will happen. The old man will receive his 10s. a week and will cling to his job, if he is allowed to cling to it, and his employer will treat it as a measure of gratitude that he is keeping him on at lower wages now that he has arrived at the age of infirmity. He will keep him on, but he will say to the aged worker, "You are now getting 10s. a week from the State. You can work for a little less than the man who is getting nothing from the State," and the costing clerk, who is such a valuable and familiar figure in every well-organised industry, will have no trouble in pointing out that the 10s. a week he is getting from the State does not go sufficiently far to make up the difference in efficiency which his years have brought about compared with the days of his youth. So they will get a moral basis for the robbery of the old man, just as they have always got a moral basis for everything they have done to his class.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to something that is largely troubling the mind of the Government to-day in regard to the problem of unemployment. We all know how anxious they are to bring down the numbers of the persons who are unemployed. They can do nothing to find them employment. They see no hope at all of that revival of trade which will restore them to their place in industry. But what they are planning now is a, scheme which will enable them to take their names from the books, and by that new method of "ostrichism" to convey the impression that they have done something to reduce unemployment. And so we may reasonably expect that, when the old worker of 65 becomes unemployed, a Regulation will be issued from the Ministry of Labour pointing out that he is a person who can no longer reasonably expect to find insurable employment, his name will be struck off the register, he will cease to get his 18s. a week and he will be left entirely dependent on the 10s. a week provided for him by the right hon. Gentleman. This is undoubtedly true, that whether the aged worker gets any benefit out of this or not, the benefit is not coming from the State but from the confiscated pennies of his fellow workers. The financial policy of this Bill is to relieve the idler at the expense of the industrious. The landlord, the stockbroker, all the people who live on interest, all the people who have huge incomes and employ very few persons in a productive capacity are being left outside the burden that is being imposed by this Measure. The entire cost of this scheme is being put on the industrious workers, or on the people engaged in industrial concerns.
The right hon. Gentleman attempted to make very little of the effect this would have on industry. I do not think his specious arguments had very much effect on the minds of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I wish we could have a ballot vote on the Measure. I am satisfied that it would reveal that the Government have not the numerical support in the House that they can claim from the figures that appear in certain books. What will be the effect of this on the mining industry? The miners have the utmost difficulty in getting anything approximating to a decent living wage. No one in the House would claim that the miners, one of the most useful sections of our population, are getting a wage sufficient to maintain themselves in decency and to bring up their children with any prospect of a decent career in the future. What will the Bill do for the miner? According to the system of fixing wages in the mining industry. In the meantime the whole cost of this scheme will come out of the wages fund. So that, of the total 8d. to be contributed by the industry, no less than 7½d. has to be paid by the men themselves. It is true that they are considering another system of fixing wages, but, assuming that they arrange a new system under which the employer has to find, out of his own pocket in some way, the 4d. which the Measure imposes on him, he can only find his 4d. out of the profits of the industry, or by putting it on to the price of the commodity. We are told, by all the figures that are published, that the profits of the industry cannot bear the additional burden. At any rate, we see from the figures that while it is true that the profits, if pooled, could as a whole bear the whole of the tax, when you take particular counties by themselves they could not bear the burden without disastrous consequences.
I am told that in Durham, for instance, there are 40,000 miners unemployed. The pits are steadily closing down, and over 25 per cent. of the people in the industry are walking the streets. The entire profits of the mining industry in Durham in 1924 amounted to £11,000, and of that sum one concern took £5,000. But the Bill, for the employers' contribution alone, puts a burden of £130,000 per annum on the mining industry of Durham. How is it to be met? In the old days, we might have got some of it out of our export trade. In the old days, the market price of exported coal was determined by competition among the British mine owners, but that is no longer the case. You might have a combine among the British mine owners, but they are no longer the sole factor in determining the price which the foreigners will pay for British coal. The price is determined largely by our foreign competitors. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I quite agree. That is your competitive system.
I am glad that I have the House with me unanimously on this point, that the additional burden of the right hon. Gentleman's Bill cannot be put on the exported coal of this country. It has to come from somewhere else. We are told that it cannot come from profits. It cannot come from coal which is exported. Is it going to come from the coal used at home? Is the price of coal such a negligible quantity, in making up the costs of the harassed industries of this country, that we need not take them into consideration in regard to what is to be done by the right hon. Gentleman? If the Government have to put cost on the home coal, it means that there will be an additional 3½d. on every four tons of coal, which is the quantity of coal that goes to the manufacturing of one ton of steel.
I want the representatives of the steel industry to tell me whether their industry can allow to be passed on to them the burden which is being placed on the coal owners of this country. I am sure they will argue that it cannot. Do not forget that it is not merely that burden, but many other burdens, which will be placed on industry, and that industry has to bear the charge which is to be directly put upon it by this Bill. The same remarks apply to the textile and the shipbuilding industry. The struggling industries are those industries in which labour costs are a considerable factor in the cost of production. There are many of these industries, particularly the industries which are in difficulties to-day, in which the cost of labour represents 80 per cent. of the total cost. These are the industries which employ the largest number of people. The industries that rely upon small profits. It is upon that basis that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to raise the money that he requires for this Bill.
The whole scheme is entirely unfair in its incidence. Sheltered and unsheltered trades, highly paid and little paid trades, the export and the home trade, are all pooled together, as though they were all uniform in their basis. My lady is to get off scot free, and is to contribute nothing, while the great body of single women are to be taxed weekly through their wages for benefits that cannot bear any reasonable relation to the tax that is being imposed upon them. Widows and orphans bear no real relation to industry and should not be shackled to industry. They should be made a charge upon the whole resources of the nation. I have no doubt that the industrial historian of the future will describe the Measure which we are discussing to-day as an act of political madness.
The right hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the controversial point of the contributory or non-contributory principle, made a direct challenge to me as to the intentions of the Socialist Government. I have no intention of evading in the least the direct question that he put. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, as far as I know, as far as I and my colleagues know, never presented to the Cabinet, and never presented to the party for whom I speak, any pensions scheme of a contributory character. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I go further and say that had he presented such a proposal to the party, the party would have rejected that Measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the late Chancellor of the Exchequer presented to the Cabinet a scheme for non-contributory pensions?
I do not know if I am at liberty— [ Interruption. ] I am trying to answer the question put to me. I say, No, and I think the applause of my supporters justifies what I have said— that no contributory scheme of pensions would have been accepted, no matter how eloquently or influentially it had been presented to the party. The right hon. Gentleman said, "If you are in favour of a non-contributory scheme, will you do something to enlighten the House as to how a non-contributory scheme could be financially supported?" Here, again, I have the greatest possible pleasure in accepting the right hon. Gentleman's challenge. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing the present Budget, reduced the Income Tax and the Super-tax by a total sum of £42,000,000. I submit that there was no necessity, apart from some relief to the recipients of lower incomes, to have made at this stage, that substantial reduction in direct taxation. It was needlessly throwing away money that could have been very valuably used in this direction. I am sure that to many of the recipients it was quite unexpected. I am sure it was an agreeable surprise to the millionaires who support the right hon. Gentleman, if such exalted people ever take any interest in such a paltry thing as the addition of a few thousand pounds a year to their incomes. Nor have I heard anyone say that it will solve the problem of unemployment.
I listened, as did the House, most interestedly to that mournful speech in which the Minister of Labour, the other day, described the industrial outlook in this country, and our present economical difficulties. He did not hold out any hope that we are on the eve of that revival of trade that was going to carry us into the land of promise that was expected when a Conservative Government came into power. He told us, quite plainly, that there was no sign of improvement in trade. I did not hear him say, "Now that the Income Tax has been reduced, now that the Super-tax has been reduced, things will begin to hum. Now there will be more trade, and everything will go well." Those were the very arguments that were used in the Tory Press in the weeks preceding the production of the Budget. Before the Budget has been disposed of in this House, neither of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's colleagues who have addressed the House on problems relating to his Budget have thrown out the slightest hint or given the slightest hope that through these financial proposals the slightest benefit will accrue to the industries of this country.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me how we would finance a non-contributory scheme. One of my hon. Friends, the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton), has favoured me by preparing a statement on the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman. That statement contains a very interesting table, of which I should be glad to present the right hon. Gentleman with a copy, which I hope will result in his edification. When the right hon. Gentleman was explaining the burdens of a non-contributory scheme, I put this question to him: "Have you taken into account the prospective savings in war pensions, in health insurance of people between the ages of 65 and 70 and the present contributions to this, which is in the way of a contributory scheme, from the Exchequer? Have you taken these sums into account in making up the figure that would be required to provide for a non-contributory scheme"? He was careful to say that he had not. He was also very careful not to remind the House that his own scheme is taking these things into account. He takes full credit for these savings. If the promoters of this scheme are entitled to take full credit for these savings in connection with their scheme, are we not entitled to take full credit for them in the alternative scheme of which the right hon. Gentleman desires particulars? Surely they cannot deny that.
Taking credit for these savings, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham has prepared a very interesting table. The table which he makes out is not one based on the allowances to be made by the scheme now under the consideration of the House. It is one based on the pensions of widows and orphans being doubled. That is what is in the minds of Labour Members—doubling the pensions for widows and orphans. My hon. Friend points out that on a non-contributory basis, taking credit for the savings to which I have referred, the total expenditure of the State during the first nine years of the existence of the scheme would be a little over one-half of the £42,000,000 needlessly thrown away by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He goes on to show that for the whole period up to the year 1965–66, the whole cost of the scheme could be met by a grant from the State which would be always under a sum of £42,000,000. His statement shows that in addition to doubling the pensions of widows and orphans, the balance would be sufficient on a non-contributory basis to bring into the scheme all those widows and orphans who are left out of any provision proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, and would be also sufficient to pay immediately the additional old age pensions which are proposed, instead of the deferred payments that are proposed.
Has the scheme been before an actuary?
I can assure the hon. Member that the reputation of my hon. Friend is such as will commend itself to the respect of any hon. Member who is familiar with him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who is he?"] The hon. Member for Peckham. The hon. Member for Peckham has an appointment in the London School of Economics. Is there a man who would attach his name to a statement to be given to the public, without seeing that it would pass any actuarial examination? I wish again to emphasise the fact that it was well within the power of the House, well within the power of the Government, without putting any imposition on industry, to have dealt far more generously, on a non-contributory basis, with the people whose needs they so eloquently describe in their speeches. We say, not that 18s. but that 36s. is not too much for a woman who has to maintain herself and two children in existing circumstances. It just brings the family above the bread mark. It just raises the widow to the point where she can hope to get for her children some of that little education which they are in danger of losing by the premature death of their father on whom they were dependent. I do think that an education which would enable any child to play an active, indeed a most prominent part in the industrial or public life of this country is something which ought to be the birthright of every baby born in Britain.
Having examined this scheme, I am wondering why the Bill was introduced. It is not going to benefit more than a very small fraction of the population. It will do nothing for widows or for their dependent children. Nothing for the orphans. I question whether it will do anything for the old age pensioners. It is only a remnant of the population who will receive some fraction of benefit from this Bill if it goes on the Statute Book, and that is not at all equal to the burden that it is placing on the large mass of the population, particularly on the struggling industries of the country. I am amazed that the people who claim to be representatives of the big capitalists of the country should, at a time like this, engage in such a great gamble in the future of industrial prosperity of this country.
I can find an explanation only in this, that we have in the party opposite a few die-hard economists who feel that it is worth taking the risk, that to-day the incomes of the very poor are to a very large extent determining the rate of wages of those engaged in industry, and so it is necessary, if they are to have fuller control in fixing wages, that they should have greater control in fixing the incomes of the poorest, which are the determining factor. One of the brightest results of the growth of the Labour movement in this country is that the control of the poor has passed into the hands of popular boards of guardians. Those who read the literature of the 19th century will see how little the boards of guardians of to-day reflect the state of affairs that existed in the days of our fathers and grandfathers. The boards of guardians of this country are steadily passing under Labour control. Labour guardians are the real guardians of the poor. They have for the first time introduced into the treatment of the poor a spirit of friendship and generosity. Even the opponents of Labour on the boards of guardians, in order to obtain anything like a sufficient amount of public support, have had to raise their standards of generosity because of the existence of the Labour guardians.
The party represented by hon. Members opposite do not like it, and the Press, which represents them in the country, does not like it, just as hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite do not like it. They have come to call it "Poplarism," but it would be better to call it "Popularism," because of its popularity, and it is superseding the old harsh conditions which prevailed so long. We find that "Poplarism" is spreading. Poplarism is popular. The people prefer to vote for the Lansburys rather than the representatives of the party opposite. I am referring to the recent results of the London elections, and the party opposite, finding that there is no hope through the ordinary elective channels of getting the desired control of the incomes of the poorest, now desire to take the guardianship of the little ones away from the large-hearted Lansburys, and place them under the control of the calculated machinery of Whitehall.
Where the widow to-day is in receipt of 28s. a week, the board of guardians put to shame the employer in the districts who is paying a man, responsible for the maintenance of himself and his wife and perhaps four or five children, a miserable weekly wage sometimes not exceeding 32s. That has this effect at any rate that it makes a general reduction of wages more and more difficult. But the class represented by the party opposite say that they are prepared to take a gamble in order that the great reduction of wages—and the incomes of the poorest having been reduced—can proceed according to plan. The only consolation that I have in the whole mean miserable scheme is that every step of the kind, which is based on the stereotyping in poverty of 70 per cent. of the population of this country, brings us nearer and nearer to the end of the capitalist system.
I should like to say at once that I am profoundly glad that the Government have lost no time in tackling this very important question. I should like to join the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down in congratulaing the Minister of Health on the very lucid and eloquent speech in which he has made so clear a great many of the provisions of this Bill which were not clear even to experts by reading the document itself. It is not an exception in this respect when we come to deal with Acts of Parliament. Most of them require a great deal of explanation.
I remember 25 years ago, the first time I had the privilege of conversation with the distinguished parent of the right hon. Gentleman. It was behind the Speaker's Chair, and the subject of our conversation was old age pensions, and although at that time I was a political opponent of his I was profoundly impressed by his sincerity and even the intensity of his desire to deal with the subject, and I am profoundly certain that he would have been proud to know that his son had taken part in a very large extension of that task which he was making a part of his life-work at that moment. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are surely under no illusion as to the popularity of the subject, or of any scheme of insurance. I know from experience that if you seek popularity you had better not propose an insurance scheme.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) suggested that if the Bill were submitted to a ballot of the electors of the country it would be rejected. Can you name any Bill that would not be rejected by a ballot of the electors? That is the experience of plebiscites in all parts. Unless it is something which gives without anything being; expected in return by way of contribution it certainly will not be popular. That does not mean that it is not a good scheme, a good idea, and for my part I am profoundly grateful that any Government, of which I am not a Member, undertakes an unpopular change which is good in itself. Therefore I approach this scheme with a spirit of Christian charity. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech, which in parts was certainly very powerful, quoted some Resolutions passed by the Labour party in 1908 in favour of widows' pensions. That certainly would have been much more impressive, and would have carried more conviction if the right hon. Gentleman had been in a position to continue his statement by saying that the first opportunity they had they carried that Resolution into effect.
With regard to the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, I was very glad to hear him say that he was prepared to accept Amendments, that he did not regard the arrangement of the benefits as final, and that he was prepared to listen to appeals and suggestions and proposals which would be made in the course of the Committee discussions. That is the only spirit in which our criticism can be most useful, with the right hon. Gentleman and the House of Commons joining in a real partnership. Every man has a contribution to make on this subject, and to that extent it ought to be a contributory scheme, and I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that he is not going to adopt a rigid attitude, and to say: "This is my scheme and I am not going to amend it," but that he will listen to arguments and suggestions put forward before finally determining his attitude upon any special subject.
I shall to-day criticise things in the Bill and make certain suggestions, but I hope that my criticisms will be helpful, and I must say at once that if I had to choose between this scheme, with all its defects, rather than have no scheme, I should certainly not vote against it, but I would do all in my power to see it carried through. Nevertheless, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will listen to reason. Now I come to the question of its being a contributory scheme, and I listened to the arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. There was a great deal to be said for many of his arguments. He had a very strong case that there were classes of the community who ought to contribute to the scheme, and there was no reason why they should be left out, whereas, on the other hand, there were classes in the community called upon to contribute more than their share and there was no special reason why they should. In that I agree there is a very strong case in favour of a non-contributory scheme. Nevertheless, I am in favour of a contributory scheme to deal with the subject, and I will give my reasons.
6.0 P.M.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and I think that he made his case there— that if this were the only subject awaiting treatment by the House of Commons, the only subject for social amelioration, the only urgent problem that needs treatment and demands national cash, then I think he has made his case that the finance is available and the scheme should be non-contributory. But it is not the only scheme awaiting treatment. The difficulty is that at the present time there are four or five subjects that ought to be dealt with urgently. Each of them demands some sort of subsidy or support from the Treasury, and it would be quite impossible to help them if the whole of the available surplus were hypothecated for one scheme of this kind. I will name them without going into details. There is the clearing away of slums. That task is bound to cost money, whatever line you take. There is housing, which, of course, is part of the same problem but not essentially the same thing; it is in a different category. You cannot do that without a loss and without calling upon the Exchequer. Then education undoubtedly in certain directions requires support beyond that which is given to it at the moment. There is the restoration of rural life, You cannot carry out that without generous expenditure on the part of the State. And we are not going through the present period of depression and unemployment without pledging deeply the resources of the State.
If this pension scheme were the only scheme demanding public money at the present moment, I would say that there is a good deal to be said for making it non-contributory, but having regard to all these things, which demand some kind of public bounty, I think it would be a mistake to make this a non-contributory scheme and to absorb resources which ought to be distributed fairly between these various demands. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) says there should be other resources available. That is true. But I have been a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and she may be in that position some day. It is one thing to say that you can, in the course of years, raise taxation to a certain point; it is another thing to say that you can do it in the course of one, two or three years. You have only to consider Super-tax. That now is five shillings or six shillings—I forget the actual figure, though it is very considerable. [HON. MEMBERS: "Less than it was."] I think that is a mistake. When I first introduced the Super-tax it was 6d., and it began on incomes of £5,000. It raised a storm. But even those who opposed it then are very glad to get about 6d. off now, and they are perfectly satisfied to pay the 5s. or 6s.
You have to educate people very gradually up to their taxable capacity. The same remark applies to Death Duties. Anyone who remembers the great controversy about the Death Duties knows perfectly well what a storm there was in 1903–4. Now even, shall I call him a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer? comes and proposes increases of a very substantial character and they are received with enthusiasm on the other side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and his very able assistant the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), when last year they were asked to abolish the means limit, replied, "No money." They emptied their pockets on the table and said, "We have not a coin." They knew all that could be done. They knew that when you are taxing the community you have first of all to carry its conscience and its common-sense with you if you are to demand its purse. Conscience requires a lot of. training where a tax is concerned. You have to bring it up very gradually to the point. Therefore, I am afraid that if this had been a non-contributory scheme it would not have been brought forward. Other things are awaiting the attention of the Government—things which I am looking forward to seeing them attempt. Therefore, I think that they are right in husbanding their resources if they have schemes of that kind in their minds.
That is the main reason why I am opposed to a non-contributory scheme. But I agree with the last speaker that at the present time it is a mistake to impose these very heavy burdens on industry. It is unwise and, if I may say so, unnecessary, at the present moment. The right hon. Gentleman made a very powerful case upon that point. It is very odd, and I am sure it strikes everyone, how much more powerful seem to be the arguments in support of something in which you believe yourself. The right hon. Gentleman's arguments against imposing this burden now I thought were very strong. I hoped that the Minister would say that he would not impose the fourpence until the period of deficiency had ceased. I do not know what is the Government's idea as to trade improvement, but at any rate I think they could finance the one, two or three years which might elapse before that period of waiting is at an end. I would be out of order were I to point out two or three ways in which they could do it. I refrain from doing so, not because I am not willing, but because it would not be in order to discuss a financial proposition. There are two or three methods by which they might do it during that deficiency period.
It is a very serious thing to put this extra fourpence on industry under present conditions. The Minister knows perfectly well how serious the trade position is. The figures given by the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) relating to Durham, were quite irresistible on this point, and I do not see what answer the Government can give to them. How are the Government to impose a burden of £110,000 upon a Durham industry which now is making a profit of only £11,000? As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, there is no means by which you can pass it on to the consumer. The fourpences and threepences up to the present have been passed on. They have not diminished the profits; they have not reduced the wages; they have been passed on to the consumer. You cannot pass on this burden in a period of depression when, if the Minister will look at the bank reports, he will find that if they are doing any trade at all it is only by cutting things so fine that there is hardly any profit, and that when they are able to pay their overhead charges they are very pleased to do so. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has looked at the reports of the great banks for the past year? They are very striking. Take Birmingham, in which he is specially interested. He knows that this statement is perfectly accurate. It is from the report of the Midland Bank and refers to the iron and steel trades. The report states:
When the Tories came in!
The days of Zinovieff, of blessed memory! The quotation goes on:
The right hon. Gentleman offered to listen to a reasoned judgment, and I hope that he will do so in the interests of trade. I take a serious view of this matter, and I have put it before the House first thing. Whether the Government think that trade will recover in six months or 18 months or two years, let them give it a chance of recovery. This scheme does not do so. I, therefore, urge the Government to reconsider that point.
My next point relates to the machinery of the Bill. I was glad to hear the Minister say that he proposed to use the machinery of the approved societies. I have been through the Bill, but I am not yet clear as to the extent to which that machinery is to be used. This is not like an ordinary pension scheme, when you say to a man of 70 that if he passes examination by a committee he is to get 10s. a week, and he then goes to the Post Office and draws his money. In this scheme you have a pension which varies according to various conditions. The pension may be payable to-day and cease to-morrow without the person concerned being dead. You will require great check. Who is to exercise that supervision? The Post Office cannot do so. It is quite impossible. That Department is simply the conduit pipe through which the money passes. Somebody ought to be checking the pensions, and I want to know the view of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the checking. There are great checks upon the War pensions, but the War pensions are not comparable to these. War pensions are a diminishing liability; and in six or seven years there will not be a child to whom you will be liable in respect of War pension. But this is an increasing liability, and unless there is a real check you may find extravagance. You may find that you will lose far more money, owing to persons claiming who ought not to claim or through carelessness, than you would by utilising the machinery of the approved societies for the purposes of checking. You have in the approved societies about 70,000 agents. This is the business of their lives. They know every working-class household throughout the country.
Spies!
Spies? Nonsense! There is nobody more acceptable in the homes of the working people than these agents. They have insured 35,000,000 voluntarily. Could they have done that if they were regarded as spies by the working people? May I say, as one who is responsible for introducing the Health Insurance Act into this House, that it would have been almost impossible to have worked that Act for the first three years of its existence with- out the admirable assistance given by these agencies throughout the kingdom, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to make some use of these agencies for the purpose of administering this great fund. Now I come to the benefits. The right hon. Gentleman said there was a great deal of criticism with regard to the use made of the money. It is very easy to get up in this House, as I know from observation, and propose all kinds of additional benefits and force the Government to oppose those benefits and their supporters to vote those benefits down. Hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves did that in 1911, and it is what happens in Parliament, and when I make this suggestion, I am not making it from the point of view of one who wants to be able to say "I was in favour of this or that additional benefit." I am assuming that the Government have a certain amount of money at their disposal—I think they could have had more —and that they have to make the best use of it. I proceed from that point of view, and I say I do not think they have quite done so. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has altogether disposed of the case against the young, childless widow. I do not know whether his figure of 1,250,000 refers to widows under 40 or widows under 50.
Under 40.
Then I think that is too low a figure and it would make a very great difference if it began at 50.
indicated dissent.
If the right hon. Gentleman says it would not, I accept his statement, because he knows the figures. I should have assumed that there was a very great difference as between fixing the age limit at 50 and fixing it at 40, but I am not in a position to challenge or contradict the right hon. Gentleman if he says it does not make any difference. Make it 1,250,000. I agree that the allowance for the widows with children is inadequate. You are not giving enough to prevent resort to the Poor Law. I think that is vital, and I am sure it would be wiser for the right hon. Gentleman—for he has his choice—to increase the allowance to the widow with children. He can make a case for giving some allowance to widows of 39 but it is not as strong as the case for increasing the allowance to the widow with children, and, therefore, I ask him to consider that point.
I come to another point, which is much more controversial, and in regard to which I do not pretend to speak for anyone except myself, because I have not had an opportunity of consulting anybody, and I am simply speaking as one who has for a great many years given consideration to questions of pensions and insurance. I do not object to giving a pension to a man of 65, but I am here assuming that the Government have only a certain amount of money, and I tell the Government and the House exactly what I have in mind. Take two cases. Take the case of the man of 40 who is broken down in health, and has a wife and family to maintain. What is his position? He gets 7s. 6d. at the present moment of invalidity or disablement pension. He cannot get unemployment pay. He is not out of work because he cannot find work, but because he is broken down in health. On the other hand, take a vigorous man of 65—and I know many of them—who prefers to be at work, who is capable of work, whose children have flown the nest, and who therefore has no responsibility except to maintain himself and his wife. There is no comparison as regards need between these two cases. If the right hon. Gentleman were dispensing largesse in his own parish and had a certain amount of money at his disposal, and if he came first to a house where there was a young man broken down and unable to earn anything, and in a second house he found a hale old fellow of 65 who could work, and was happy at his work and earning quite enough to keep himself and his family, the right hon. Gentleman, I venture to say, would not leave one penny in that second house, but he would leave something in the first house—and he would probably ask the old boy of 65 to contribute.
The man of 65 who is capable of working is an object not of compassion, but of congratulation. I have not reached those years myself, but I am not a long way off, and if I have changed my mind at 65, it will mean that I am only fit for a disablement pension. In business, men never dream of retiring at that age if they have full command of their faculties and health. The two most successful generals in the Great War were over 65, and one of them, I remember just before his great triumph, was flung through the windscreen of his motor car and that does not improve the health of a man of any age. It look him months to recover. That was Marshal Foch, and he did his great work after that accident. The other was the present President of the German Republic. Both were over that age. It is not a question of whether you should or should not give a pension to a man at the age of 65. That is not the point. The point is, if you have only a certain amount of money, which would you deal with first? I say, without hesitation, I would increase the disablement pension and then if the man of 65 says, "I am not equal to work; I only work because I am compelled to do so for my living," and if the doctor says he has not the strength for it, then he should get the disablement pension. But the real test is not age, it is disablement. I know many craftsmen in many walks of life who have at 65 enough physical strength to do their work, and three times the craft they ever had at any previous period. I agree with the criticism that the real danger is that unless you put it on the ground of disablement, it will go in reduction of wages.
Somebody has talked about the Mond scheme. This is the Mond scheme, without any of its checks. There is no check at all. It will just be a contribution. The man who can work and who would rather work, whatever his age, will go on working, and he will simply treat this as something in hand with which to bargain for wages. So far from helping to relieve unemployment, it would be quite the reverse, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether, on the whole, he ought not to put his scheme as from 65 on the basis of disablement, and then, if he has the money to spare, he can extend the old age pension to 65, but I am assuming he has not that margin.
I apologise for detaining the House, but there is one other criticism which I wish to make. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible to have another benefit. He talks as if this scheme covered all the accidents against which the industrial population of this country has to ensure. It does not. There are two capital charges of which the working classes have always been frightened, one being the doctor's bill after a prolonged illness. In the past it took years to wipe it out, and the only contributor very often was the doctor himself. The doctors lost three-quarters of their bills in that respect —not because the workmen would not pay but because they could not pay. That difficulty fortunately has been disposed of by the Health Insurance Act. What was the other? The funeral expenses—the grim expenditure on the final parting, with all its tender and reverent extravagances, if you like. That is what they insured against to the greatest extent. Test what the working men want by what they insure against and you will see what it is of which they stand most in need. Two or three millions insured against unemployment in the old days before compulsion; not more than six millions insured against ill-health, but there are 50 million voluntary insurances to-day against the payment of funeral expenses. It has been the great subject of insurance from ancient time. Why, even the Roman slaves provided against it. This anxiety is due to the fear of a pauper's funeral.
There are two reasons why this should be taken into account at the present moment. The industrial population is paying £25,000,000 a year voluntarily in this respect—three times as much as they will be contributing compulsorily towards this scheme—but the cost is enormous. The money has to be collected in pennies, often two or three calls have to be made at the same house, and of the £25,000,000 contributed only £14,000,000 goes in benefit, and that is inevitable under the present system. What is the other danger? It is the old danger of lapses. Under the old voluntary insurance for health there were 250,000 every year who fell out of benefit, and in 20 years 5,000,000 fall out of benefit. Under this head 5,000,000 every year lapse. There is one great company which, out of 9,000,000 insurances issued in the course of 10 years, had 6,000,000 lapses. That is found on the official authority of the investigation which I think I set up in 1919 into the subject. At any rate, that is something that ought to be provided against. The average amount insured, so I find on inquiry, is £20 per person. If it were possible to have a compulsory insurance for £10, it would be an infinite boon. With regard to the agencies, if they are used for the purposes of supervision, and of administration of additional benefits, which would inevitably ensue, then I think it would not interfere in the least with the 70,000 agents to whom I refer; on the contrary, they would be used for more responsible work, for work which was more pleasant than going around and collecting these small sums. They would become the helpful part of a great national scheme of insurance, because, by utilising these societies, you would get the benefit of State control with private management. State management is apt to be rigid and extravagant; private management is tempted to be selfish and greedy, and to think more of the profits, but here you have the combination of State control and private management, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider it.
I am very glad—and this is my final word—that the right hon. Gentleman indicated that he was going to deal with the Poor Law. To have schemes of this kind, without co-ordinating the whole machinery of relief, is wasteful in the extreme, it is ineffective in the extreme, it is unequal, and I am sure that the working population of this country would like to get rid of this system, from the point of view of their own dignity and of the efficiency of any scheme. The right hon. Gentleman was very insistent upon the relief to the Poor Law that would be given by this scheme. It will not come. Has he looked at the figures of the Poor Law expenditure before health insurance or pensions began? It was under £15,000,000. That was the total sum that was spent in relief. Last year it was £40,000,000. When you take old age pensions, health insurance, and unemployment insurance together, you have £110,000,000 spent upon the very objects that were formerly the purpose of Poor Law relief. You have put in addition to that £40,000,000, and we are spending now £150,000,000 instead of £15,000,000, or 10 times as much. In so far as it relieves distress, I have not a word to say. We must share our luck in this world, and those who are fortunate ought to be very glad to give of their very best to those who have not been so lucky in life, and I do not believe anybody grudges it; but they do want to know that the money is properly spent, and by this duplicating scheme it is not. You duplicate officers, and offices, and purposes, and there is bound to be a good deal of loss somewhere in between.
I have submitted all these criticisms in the best spirit. I have done it with a view to helping this through, and whatever I can do, all that is in my power, I shall do to help this scheme through. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consent, as he has promised, to Amendments, but I am very glad that he does not consider this as a final disposal of the great problem of relieving distress, misery and wretchedness which is undeserved, and that he is going to take in hand the rest.
The House has listened this afternoon to three exceedingly important and exceedingly impressive speeches from three important leaders of opinion in this House. I hope that, as the first back bencher on this side to speak, I may be allowed, not only to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill, but to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) for the exceedingly sympathetic, kindly and helpful consideration which he has given to this Bill. If all Members of all parties in this House will approach the consideration of this question in the admirable spirit, if he will allow me respectfully to say so, which has been displayed by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, this will indeed be a contributory Bill of the highest value to the State. I hope that after these speeches the House will listen for a few moments to one who has, at any rate, given some little thought to this question. I do not mean for one moment to pretend, any more than did the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, that this Bill fulfils all the anticipations which I have formed, but I do recognise that it goes some distance, perhaps at the moment as far as prudence will allow, as far as it is good to go in the present condition of industry and trade, towards a realisation of the dreams of those who looked for a comprehensive system of insurance.
It is quite obvious from what we have already heard in the House this afternoon, and from what we have been reading during the last two or three weeks in the Press, that the attack on this Bill will concentrate itself, I think, on two main points. I hesitate to call it an attack by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. It was not an attack, it was a helpful piece of criticism, but his criticism very largely concentrated on the fact that at the present moment you are laying upon industry a burden which industry cannot possibly bear. The other criticism, no doubt, will be directed to the contributory nature of the Measure. I want the House to allow me to ask them, and through them to ask the country, what is the basis, what is the real case, for dealing with this question at all. If we can get down to that, I think some of the criticisms we have heard will, I do not say disappear, but be mitigated in extent. I approach this question from this point of view: I believe that the modern industrial system owes a very great debt to the wage earner, which so far it has only partially discharged. I do not want to be misunderstood, and, therefore, let me say that, if modern industrialism owes a great debt to the wage earner, the wage earner, in my opinion, owes a great debt to modern industrialism. That debt is. sometimes not very perfectly apprehended, and certainly not very adequately acknowledged, but he does owe a great debt to modern industrialism. No one who has attempted to follow the history of social development in this country during the last century and a half can doubt that modern industrialism has enormously improved the position of the great mass of the people in this country, but this improvement has only been secured by the payment of a very heavy price.
So far as the improvements to which the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs alluded, which have been effected mainly in the last 20 years, are gratuitous or are provided mainly at the public charge, they have placed an enormous burden upon industry. I know that some people are careless, some hon. and right hon. Members sitting opposite are careless, as to this cost, because they imagine that the burden rests mainly upon those who can very well afford to bear it. I recall in this connection some very wise words by the late Lord Morley of Blackburn. They are words which I think ought to be borne in mind by those who would transfer the burden of this Bill from what they call industry to the public purse. Whether you call it taxes, or whether you call it rates, the charge ultimately falls upon industry, and you are only adjusting the burden by shifting it either from taxes to rates, or from them to insurance. If anybody wants to realise the extent and character of this burden, I would like to refer them, as, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman opposite implicitly referred them, to what is known as the Drage Return. It is Paper No. 12 of this year 1925. It is a Return of the sums which are spent on public social services out of the Exchequer, out of the rates, and also by personal contribution. An analysis of the figures in this White Paper reveals results which can only be described as profoundly discouraging and disappointing.
The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs alluded to a fact which must cause a great deal of misgiving to all who are embarking on these schemes of social insurance. He pointed to the fact that, at the time when the old age pensions were first introduced into this country, the charge for poor relief was under £17,000,000 a year. In the year 1911, for example, the charge for old age pensions was £7,300,000, and the charge in the same year for poor relief was under £17,000,000. To-day, with old age pensions costing the State £27,000,000 a year, the charge for poor relief has simultaneously and concurrently risen to £44,000,000. Take, again, education. I remember very well that when education was first made compulsory, and then a little later on was made gratuitous, there were those who prophesied that, at any rate, we should get material value for our money in the reduction of the sums expended on poor relief. We all know that that anticipation has not been realised, that at the moment, when we are spending £90,000,000 a year on education, we are spending, as I said just now, £44,000,000 a year on poor relief. I said these improvements had been bought at a price, but when I said that, I had something else in mind. What is the price which modern industrialism is paying for improvements that have been brought to the mass of the working people? I would summarise the price in two words. It is a sense of insecurity, and a sense of instability in the minds of the wage earners. Life may have been hard—it was hard—in pre-industrial days in England. In many respects it was very much harder than it is to-day, but though it was harder, conditions were relatively more stable; they were less obviously insecure. The reason was, of course, I need hardly remind hon. Members, that this country in those days was a rural country; it was a country containing a vast majority of people employed in rural industries. 75 per cent. I suppose, of the people of this country were not urban dwellers, but country dwellers, and the consequence was that those cyclical fluctuations, which have brought that sense of insecurity and instability into the economic life to-day, were almost unknown in those pre-industrial days. Conditions were, I say, relatively stable. The life of the individual seemed to be relatively secure.
In these two words, then, I submit, we have the real basis of apology for the introduction of this Bill—instability and insecurity. We have, in the last 25 years, done something to mitigate the sense of insecurity. We have done a great deal to help the wage-earners to guard against many contingencies incidental to modern industry. What are those contingencies? First of all, there is the interruption to employment, and, therefore, to the opportunity of earning a livelihood. Some provision has been made against that. Then there is the contingency of accidents occurring in the course of employment. That is a liability which, as the right hon. Gentleman told us in introducing this Bill, has been imposed exclusively upon the employer. Then there is the contingency of a breakdown in health, to which the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs alluded so feelingly and which we all know to be a terrible contingency to the mass of our people. Then there is the contingency of premature death, the removal of the breadwinner, for which this Bill is primarily designed. Finally there is the contingency of old age and possible industrial incapacity. Something has been done in the last 25 years to meet these contingencies, but, as the right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Bill, said, up to this time there has been a gap in the completion of the insurance against these several contingencies.
Speaking for myself, when I first began to take an interest in this question, I was very much attracted towards the idea of insuring by industry. I still think there is a great deal to be said for it, although I am afraid there is still more to be said against it. Then I was greatly attracted to the scheme with which the name of my friend Mr. Broad is so honourably associated, the idea of a great, complete insurance scheme. I was very glad to hear my right hon. Friend pay tribute to the value of the preliminary work which has been done in this subpect by Mr. Broad. I very much doubt whether we should be discussing this scheme this afternoon, at any rate with popular approval, if it had not been for the preliminary work done by Mr. Broad. But I am afraid I must confess, like my right hon. Friend, that I have come to the conclusion that the basis which Mr. Broad selected for his scheme was not actuarially sound. That being so, it was useless to proceed with its discussion. Now we have the Bill of this afternoon before us. I find in this Bill two very satisfactory features. I like its compulsory character; I welcome its contributory character. But I suppose my right hon. Friend himself would not pretend that it is completely comprehensive. I had hoped, I confess, for some further attempt at co-ordination of social insurance. When I take up the Memorandum explanatory of the provisions of this Bill, the first sentence I read is this: further way to overcome them. I believe that if we could have done so, we should not only have brought great advantage to the insured persons, but we should have secured far greater economy in the way of administration, and we should have brought more relief to industry.
That is the point on which, of course, criticism will very largely, if not entirely, concentrate itself. This Bill, as I apprehend, will stand or fall in the opinion of the constituencies in proportion as it does bring, in the long run, some real relief to industry. The question I would venture to put to the country is this: Are the advantages to be anticipated from this Bill sufficiently great and sufficiently obvious to reconcile industry to the burden which, undoubtedly, will be imposed upon it? What does this Bill offer to the employer? I hope that it will offer to him a considerable easing of the terrible burden of local rates for the relief of the poor. My right hon. Friend—I think he will correct me if I am wrong—spoke of a relief starting at £3,000,000 and rising to £7,000,000 as the sum which he anticipated might be saved on local rates by the operation of this Bill. Well, that will be a sensible relief, but it will not be an immediate relief. Then I hope that there will be, ultimately at any rate, an easing of the burden on the Imperial Exchequer for non-contributory pensions. My right hon. Friend who introduced this Bill was not, to my apprehension, quite clear—at least, he did not make his meaning quite clear to me. I hope we shall hear from some Member of the Government, before we take a Division on this Amendment, what is the measure of relief which they anticipate in regard to the existing and non-contributory pension scheme. I think the judgment of a good many people will largely depend upon the anticipations they are able to hold out in that respect. Then there will be, I hope, as my right hon. Friend anticipated, a very real diminution in unemployment, but the figures which I have already quoted, or to which I have referred, in this White Paper, the Drage Return, warn us, I think, against too sanguine an estimate in regard to the advantages to be secured by adding to our insurance schemes.
7.0 P.M.
So much for the employer. Now what does this Bill offer to the manual worker and his dependants? In my view, as I have said, this scheme will be a failure unless it brings to the mass of the manual workers some of that sense of security, the lack of which undoubtedly haunts their minds to-day. And what are the advantages to industry as a whole? This is a point which has hardly been touched by any of the three distinguished speakers who have preceded me. The economic advantages of this scheme must surely be judged by the extent to which it contributes to an enhancement of in dustrial productivity. I have often ex pressed the conviction in this House and outside it—it is a commonplace—that we are suffering at the present moment from the low rate of our industrial productivity, but I have always contended that that low rate of productivity was not, as some of my friends think, due to a double dose of original sin on the part of the trade unions and their regulations. Let me, at any rate, make a frank admissioa that it is due, at any rate in part, to that sense of insecurity and of instability to which I have alluded. Will this scheme help to remove that sense? I do not believe there is any other ground on which we can justify this Bill to industry as a whole, but I hope and feel pretty confident that there is one suggestion about the Bill against which the Government will show themselves as adamant, namely, that the Bill can be even in the temporary sense non-contributory. I say quite deliberately that, though there is no measure of social reform in which I am more Keenly interested than I am in this, I would rather see the temporary postponement of this Measure than see it initiated as a non-contributory scheme. There are many points of detailed criticism which I have noted, and with which I will not deal for the time being. There is one, however, to which reference has been made by both of the speakers who preceded me and to which I will draw the attention of the House.
I observe a curious disparity between the provisions contained in Clause 18 and 19 of the Bill under which pensions will be granted to widows only if they are mothers of at least one child, and those pensions are to cease not only on remarriage, but when the youngest child reaches the age of 14½; but under Clause 3 of the Bill pensions are for the life of the widow, or, at any rate, during her widowhood. I think I know the reason for the apparent inconsistency of these Clauses. As I understand it, the benefits which are given under Clauses 18 and 19 of the Bill are the free gifts of the State. They are really non-contributory. The other is contributory, and that is the reason, I suppose, for the disparity. But there is hardly a Clause in this Bill which will not demand close and careful scrutiny when we go into Committee of the whole House, as I hope we shall do. This is far too important a Bill to send to any Standing Committee, and I hope that the whole House will have an opportunity of considering it in Committee. Then will be the opportunity for detailed criticism. Meanwhile, I would like to say, in a concluding sentence, how cordially I welcome the Bill as a really courageous and honest and laudable attempt to advance another stage towards that system of better co-ordinated and more comprehensive insurance which may do something, at any rate, to mitigate that sense of instability and insecurity which is eating into the vitals of our industrial life.
I would have liked to join with the other speakers in saying a word about the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain and his association with schemes of social reform, but I should have had to point out that that statesman, like his son to-day, stood rather for social insurance in its truest sense, that is in compelling individual workpeople to insure against the evils connected with old age when it falls on the workers, and widows and orphans. The fact is that during this Debate, certainly on the Second Reading, we are debating and discussing a question of fundamental importance, and an issue which is fundamental in its character as between ourselves and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side. I want, at the outset, to say that, speaking as one who, for about 33 years, has had to adjudicate as to the measure of relief that ought to be given to women and children under the Poor Law, that one finds it extremely difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule as to the fixed amount, the sum needed to supply the necessaries of life to such people. I will tell you one of the things that vitiates all your calculations, and that is rent. Even in a district like the East End of London, rent varies for the women with two or three children from 4s. or 5s. up to 12s. and 14s. Therefore, I never myself advocated a hard and fast rule as to the sums which were paid to a mother and her dependent children. It seems to me that the only basis on which you should calculate what she needs is to find out, first of all, what her needs really consist of, and this Bill which we are discussing this afternoon is saying to a woman, who lives in a rural area that she will have the same amount as a woman who lives, say, in Stepney or Poplar or Sheffield. The conditions are not the same at all.
I am calling attention to this because every scheme which has been put forward during the last few years has been put forward in the hope that we shall reduce local rates. The hon. Baronet (Sir J. Marriott) who has just sat down, and a few other Members of this House are well aware that since the passing of the Insurance Acts and since the passing of the Old Age Pensions Acts every single service connected with local government has increased its activities and it has increased its cost. Health insurance has not got rid of the need for communal effort through the local authority. As a matter of fact, all the services now being performed by the municipalities in the granting of milk, in the dental clinics, and a hundred and one ways in dealing with the effects of poverty, have all been, brought into being since the passing of the Insurance Act, which was put forward to save the working people from becoming a burden on the community. I would like to lay down that in my opinion this Bill, like the other Bills which have preceded it, will not, and cannot, effectively deal with the problem of poverty, and for this perfectly simple reason, that all the time we are, as it were, baling out, waters are being tumbled in in greater measure. What I means is that the pool of poverty stricken people grows larger because of the social and industrial conditions which create this poverty. Therefore, it is no use any of us imagining that this Bill is going to ease any of our burdens at all, except that this House, later on, is going to pass some sort of legislation which will put the poor in the same position as they were after the Poor Law Commission of 1830. That, of course, I think is an impossible proposition. We have travelled far since the days when it was laid down as a cardinal principle of public administration that no able-bodied person, whether it was a man or a woman, a widow or not, should receive any public assistance at all outside the workhouse.
I do not know whether in the scheme of Poor Law reform that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. N. Chamberlain) is going to bring forward, he hopes to reestablish that doctrine which entirely lapsed in 1850 and came in again when the late Mr. Goschen was at the Local Government Board. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is going to try to reform the Poor Law along those lines. If he has any such scheme in his mind, he may be sure that we who sit on these benches will do our best to prevent anything of the kind happening for this simple reason, that neither under the National Health Insurance scheme, nor the Unemployment scheme, nor under this scheme of old age pensions, is the State providing anything like sufficient. I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman what perhaps if he inquires from his officers he will find to be the case. I want to ask him whether he realises that what he is doing is stabilising or setting up a standard which the Boards of Guardians, as the right hon. Gentleman told me a month or two ago, will say is the standard set by the House of Commons as the amount needed for the relief and assistance of widows and children. If you do not believe that you have only to make inquiries of Boards of Guardians in reference to unemployment.
Nearly every board of guardians acts differently from many of the London boards and boards in big industrial centres. They take the contribution of 18s. per week for an unemployed man and 5s. for the woman, and they refuse to supplement that in any sort of way, because they say that is the amount Parliament has set down for the maintenance of an unemployed workman and his wife, and the same screw that you give to children, namely, 2s. per head, allowed under the National Insurance. In passing the miserable doles of 10s. a week and 5s. for the first child and 3s. for the others, we are saying to the men and women who contribute to this fund, "At the end you shall only have just enough to starve." I remember being asked, after the passing of the first Old Age Pensions Act, what I thought about the 5s. "Well," I said, "that is pensions for the dead," and these are pensions to enable men and women to starve unless the Minister of Health is going to insist that boards of guardians shall supplement this up to a living standard. He is called upon, through his auditors, to prevent boards of guardians giving too much. I think he ought to take a course opposite from that and see that guardians give enough, and this scheme should be supplemented, and must be supplemented, by the boards of guardians.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he hoped that this would lead to a greater effort on the part of the workers to provide something in addition. I think he forgets all that the workers are doing indirectly and directly for themselves and other people now. Every penny that is produced and used by anybody must be produced by the workers somewhere and some time. There cannot be any denial of that fact. Under this scheme, they are going to be penalised, perhaps a man and his wife to the tune of 4d. per week each, and they will also have to pay the 4d. that the employer pays, because that will be taken into account by the employers all the time in fixing the conditions under which he will run his business. We have already been told that with the miners that is absolutely certain. I am also certain that it will happen elsewhere, especially in the low-paid industries.
The point, however, that I want to make, and to make most emphatically, is that when these people are in this indirect and direct manner taxed, in the end they are not going to get what you profess you are going to give them in the shape of public assistance. I daresay some hon. Members will object very much to what I am now going to say, but it is my view, so I am going to say it! I think the soldier in industry has as much claim, also his wife and children, to the resources of the nation as the soldier in the Army. I think that the miner who is destroyed, either by disease or by death during his work, is as deserving of recognition as the soldier on the battlefield. I do not understand how you can tell the public that you are making provision for the widows and orphans of the working classes, or why you should set up, in fact, one standard for the soldier and his widow and children, and another for the industrial worker, or make a discrimination against the soldier in the industrial army. In my judgment, both of them should be treated exactly alike. Both of them should be considered as persons who have a definite claim upon the community.
I want to say one other thing about the contributory principle. The late Minister of Health (Mr. Wheatley), in a few words, called attention to the fact that we were slowly shifting burdens which had previously been borne by people other than the working classes on to the shoulders of the working classes. In this Chamber I have called attention to the fact that an Act of Elizabeth has never yet been repealed which lays it down definitely and distinctly that it is the duty of the community to take care of the sick and aged, and those who are not able to find work. That Act, I say, is still on the Statute Book. Boards of guardians are expected to administer that Act. But they have administered it under orders from the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. If that Act were carried out in the spirit of old monasteries, which it was brought in to replace, there would not be any question of bringing up these questions of weekly contributions from the workers. It has not been so. In a very skilful manner the right hon. Gentleman has several times attempted to put the cost of sickness and ill-health on to the workers, but it has not succeeded quite!
At the beginning I said that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health is now going to relieve the ratepayers to some extent, and he hopes to relieve the well-to-do, and the people who pay Income Tax and Super-tax, by making the workers pay this 4d. a week. I am against it for the various reasons I have stated, and also for another reason—and this is also quite fundamental. All wealth made is social wealth. It is produced by the social effort of the community. The whole crime of the Poplar Guardians was that they had seen to it that the victims of present day so-called civilisation should not rot in the workhouse, or that insufficient assistance should be given to them; but that they should have a decent, wholesome standard of life. It is stated by some hon. Members that by doing this we have robbed them of their moral backbone—of their independence—
Hear, hear!
I am glad to get that cheer from Birmingham. I myself have never known any well-to-do, wellborn, upstanding, independent member of the other classes who has ever refused a jolly good pension, towards which he has never paid anything. I have never met one in my life. I know I never shall! When I am told that a woman whose husband has been stricken down with phthisis because he worked under miserable, insanitary conditions, and never really had enough money to get sufficient food for his wife and children; that we must help him to maintain his independence by robbing him of a little more each week so that when he dies he may have made provision for his widow and children, I can only think that is the veriest possible humbug. If you want to tell me that to give people public assistance crushes the manhood and womanhood out of them, go down to the East End and look at them. Note a woman in the district who formerly got 2s. a week in outdoor relief and 1s. 6d. for each of her children, which is 1s. 6d. less than the right hon. Gentleman is going to give some of them. In those days the women were crushed, those who were down and out. To-day they stand on their two feet. If they could come here and speak in this House they would tell hon. Members that they were only getting what their husbands and the class to which they belong had actually created.
Standing at that box opposite the right hon. Gentleman tells us about independence, and about the independence of the poor. I want the poor to have a little of the selfishness of the classes that rob them every day of their lives. I want them to have the sort of feeling that when they are denied the right to live they will take some other measures for getting those means to live. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) gave us some figures as to where the money was to some from for the purposes of the Bill. I want to repeat that in a Budget of £800,000,000 there is less than £200,000,000, after all the figures hon. Members opposite fling at us as to what is being spent on the poor, on social services on education, and the like—less than £200,000,000 is spent on these things. That being the case I maintain that these women instead of getting a paltry pension or allowance of 7s. per week—it is a disgrace to the British Parliament that any such sum should be proposed—and if it is carried it will mean a lasting disgrace —if I am told that there is not enough money I would point out a few things. It would appear to me in respect of the rich that the more we tax and super tax the rich the richer they become. Instead of the profit and dividends failing, in many industries they are going up. I know, of course, that the number of the industries is probably smaller than before, for industries are getting into the hands of fewer and fewer people, and fewer and fewer people, perhaps, handle these enormous fortunes. That, however, is part of the economic development which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite support.
You cannot, however, get away from the fact that after other taxes have been put on the rich they are still rich and get richer. You are able to spend the margin of £600,000,000 for services other than social and educational for the people who have provided the whole of the £800,000,000. If you must cut down, cut down the expenditure on armaments, on all the organisation of war, on paying off the War Debt, and so on. You ought to do one other thing. I am never going to sit here and listen without protest to arguments for 10s., or £1, or 30s. per week as being too much for a working-class mother of a working-class man who is incapacitated. I am never going to do other than protest against the doctrine that a woman should bring up her child on 5s. a week with 3s. for the next child and so on, or any sum like it. My wife could not do it. I know what my wife could not do, no other decent woman could do either.
I will never, without protest, allow a statement to go through that we cannot afford what is asked; that is, to spend the money in the way I have just suggested, when we are able to pay an ex-Queen £80,000 a year without any contribution from her, £10,000 a year for Princesses, and £6,000 for others without any contributions being received from them at all. You can give many other hundreds of thousands of pounds to well-to-do people who never pay a halfpenny, or do any really useful work for it. The workers produce everything that has any worth. Hon. Members opposite may talk about brains being necessary. Brains cannot get an ounce of gold out of the pit unless the miner with his bone and muscle goes down there with the pick. I admit that you are necessary in one way or another —[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]— but you are not so necessary that you should take the biggest share and then throw a dole of 10s. a week by way of charity to the man who may have been hurt in working in the mine, the factory, or the mill. It is for these various reasons that I hope the Amendment will be carried, and that the House of Commons will bring in and pass a Bill that will be a credit, not only to those in the House, but the country also.
In rising to address the House for the first time, I claim the indulgence that is always given to a new Member may be accorded to me. When we were listening to the attack of the late Minister of Health, the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), upon the Bill I could not help thinking that we were witnessing a sham attack. It rather reminded me of the mimic battles you see at the Royal Tournament. When the smoke bombs have been thrown and the smoke clears away you find that nothing particular has happened to the structure. I do not believe anybody, however eloquent they may be, can get away from the fact that half-a-loaf is better than no bread. I think hon. Gentlemen who watched the Labour Benches must have been struck by the tears that were brought to the eyes of Labour Members when the right hon. Gentleman for Shettleston told the House of the harrowing burdens to be borne by the coalowners.
I pass on to the Budget speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I think we ought to acknowledge how necessary it was that he should lay so much emphasis on giving security to the worker. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) told us to go into the East End and look around. I have bean there, I have worked in a Mission, and those of us who have worked in some of the poor quarters and have also been abroad realise the tremendous difference in the conditions of the workers Overseas, in America, and in Canada, and the workers in this country. I do not know whether hon. Members, know a magazine called the "World's Work," which was started by that great man the late Mr. Page, the American Ambassador to this country. They have printed lately a series of articles showing to what an extraordinary extent the investments in big commercial undertakings in the United States are held by the workers of that nation. What does that mean? It means that those workers in America have a security through the dividends which they have obtained by investing the margin of their wages.
How are we to attain that security in this country? It is quite impossible to hope that in the near future the workers will be in an economic condition to have sufficient wages which would enable them to invest any margin in the big industries in this country. But I believe that if we are to give security we must do it by some measure of legislation. There are many of us of whom it can be said that we have been enthused by the broad scheme, and though we are sorry to hear that it is not actuarially possible, we believe that eventually we shall solve this question of security by some all-in insurance scheme. The Minister of Health has told us it is not possible to-day, but perhaps one day it may be possible to work out some very big scheme. Those of us on these benches who are still young enough to be fired with enthusiasm welcome this Bill, and look upon it as the foundation of the road bed of a great highway on which the workers of the future are going to march to security and industrial peace.
Hon. Members opposite have told us how they disapprove of the contributory Clause. I believe the contributory Clause to be the very keystone of this Measure. Take away the keystone and the arch will fall. We have been told that the British worker is the finest worker in the world. I subscribe to that and go further, and say the British worker has the finest character in the world, and is not a man who wants something for nothing. We know that to-day there are millions of men who would rather work than receive the dole even if the dole were more generous than it is at the present time. May I illustrate this argument by an incident which came my way in the country? There is in Hampshire a small hamlet which has a cricket club run by the lads of that village. They mow the grass, they prepare the wicket, they rely for subscriptions on their own efforts; and I believe the rich amateur or the professional gets no more pleasure out of making a century at Lords than these village lads get out of their games. A few miles away there is another village, where a cricket ground was provided by a rich man. There was no subscriptions, he maintained the ground, he even provided them with a free tea. The point of my argument is well illustrated by the result. There was a very keen team in the village where the members of the club ran it themselves, and in the rich man's village there was no enthusiasm—often they could not raise a team. To-day the rich man has left the village; the cricket team no longer exists; the beautiful ground has gone back into meadow, and the "Song of the Willow" is no longer heard. A simple illustration of the fallacy of something for nothing. I believe the British working man would rather contribute to his pension, so that when the time comes he can receive his benefit with the same pride and the same feeling of right as his rich neighbour takes his dividends, or his benefits from his insurance company.
I pass on to the question, Can industry afford it? We have heard a lot about that this afternoon. Some of the most successful industries of the present day are those which have some scheme of contributory insurance whereby the workers are made happy and contented. If by this Bill we can do something to make the worker happier, I believe the industrial magnate will not grudge the extra 4d. a week; the contentment it will bring will more than pay. Further, T believe this Bill will not only have a beneficial effect physically but also mentally. I believe that if we can get rid of the feeling of unrest we are going to do a lot to solve the unemployment problem. If we look back in history we find that feeling of unrest started right back in the industrial evolution, when undoubtedly the employers exploited the workers, and the workers worked too long hours in the factories under disgraceful conditions. I believe it was at that period that there was born the feeling of injustice and unrest which has existed until the present day. We of the Tory party freely acknowledge it, because in those days the manufacturers made up the bulk of the Liberal party. Now the employer, a more broad-minded man, has got a bigger vision, and he is all out for helping the workers. It is a rather curious fact that this humanising of the manufacturer has gradually come about as he has left the Liberal party and joined the Tory party. I believe that if by this Bill we promote industrial peace it will be cheap at the price.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition recently paid a very generous tribute to the young men in the Tory party. He admitted that we were full of zeal, and said the time would come when we were "fed up" with the old fogies on these benches and would go across to the benches of progress opposite. Though we thank him for the compliment, we think he has fundamentally misjudged the situation. We are the party of progress, because we are a practical party, and until hon. Gentlemen opposite come down from the clouds, till they give up the worship of fetishes such as public ownership, they can never claim to be the progressive party, and it is on their benches that the most reactionary minds in this country are to be found.
I would like to reply to the argument I have seen in the Press that the Conservative party are bringing in this Measure because we want to steal a march on the Opposition. I believe this Measure merely carries out the historical tradition of the Conservative party. If you go back a number of years you will find that the beginning of social reform was started by Lord Shaftesbury, that great Tory democrat. On one of the walls of one of England's famous public schools there is a tablet which reads as follows: of the Exchequer will remember that tablet, because, if rumour speaks true, and I have no reason to believe it does, it is on the wall of a building where public school discipline was enforced in a more severe, personal and certainly painful form. I believe that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer allowed for this Bill in his Budget he was nobly carrying the torch which was lit by Shaftesbury, was carried forward by Disraeli, and borne onward by his own father, borne onward at times against great difficulties, and very often alone. It is true the Chancellor of the Exchequer suffered a catastrophe somewhere about the year 1906, when the candle he was carrying went out, and he could not find the matches in the dark. But it is pleasant to think that, though he wandered for many years in the darkness—I will not say in the wilderness—he has at last returned to the fold, and all is well.
I would like to thank the House for the kind attention with which they have listened to me. I will not conclude with a beautiful peroration, which I believe Members making their maiden effort are supposed to compose. But may I quote from a letter I have received from one of the workers in my constituency, because, after all, it is the workers that this Bill will affect?
Perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the hon. Member who has just sat down on the happy manner in which he has discharged the nervous and difficult task of addressing this House for the first time. I am sure hon. Members have listened to his speech with great pleasure, and will look forward to hearing him speak again on other occasions. If I do not fully share his appreciation of this Bill, but at any rate I join with him in the sympathy he has expressed for the objects which we all have in view, and towards the partial realisation of which this Bill is certainly a distinct contribution. There has been some considerable discussion as to whether the scheme should be on a contributory or a non-contributory basis. For my part I am not interested in any academic discussion of that kind. If I had to make a choice between accepting a scheme now which confers benefits on a contributory basis, rather than a Measure under which people will not receive benefits until the time comes when the fund can be placed on a non-contributory basis, then I should prefer the former method.
I regard any scheme of this character as one of real economy. No doubt one of the things which hampers the producers of this country is a feeling of security arising from the fear and apprehension as to what will happen in the event of sickness, or accident, or the death of the breadwinner of the family. To the extent to which you remove that fear and remove that feeling of insecurity you are making a distinct contribution to the productiveness of the people upon which we all depend. If I may for a moment revert to the arguments used for a contributory scheme as against a non-contributory scheme, for my part I think there is a great deal to be said in favour of having a contributory scheme. I believe the British character is such that it does considerably add to the self-respect of the people if when receiving benefit they are conscious of the fact that they have made some contribution which has made the receipt of those benefits possible.
There is a more practical reason, and it is that what the State gives the, State may take away, and if you have a scheme conferring benefits to which no direct contributions are made, it may very well happen that in times of financial stringency on the Front Bench, the Government may take the line of saying, "The people who have been receiving these benefits have made no contributions and are not doing so, and in view of the state of the finances of the country we feel we cannot allow this burden to continue in the present year." For that reason I believe it is a practical advantage to have a contributory scheme, because, after all, it is not the same thing for the people to receive benefits to which they have contributed, and to which by reason of their contributions they are entitled, as going to the guardians and appealing there for what, after all, bears with it the taint, if it is a taint, of charity.
Apart altogether from the larger and general question whether a scheme should be on a contributory or non-contributory basis, I think the basis on which this Bill is built is more burdensome than the country can be expected to bear at the present time. I believe the State could reasonably have introduced a Bill comprising those benefits without making the large contribution upon which the present Bill is based, and without placing any contributions upon employers or workmen at the present time. The Minister of Health has told us this afternoon that the benefits which are contained in this Bill, if granted on a non-contributory basis, would in five years' time amount to £31,000,000 a year. My view is that at the present time, and for the next few years, whilst unemployment is so acute, and whilst trade depression is so great, the State should assume the responsibility for the first year. May I point out that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not reduced the Income Tax by 6d. in the £ and if he had not reduced the Super-tax, he might have made a contribution to this Fund which would have secured the £31,000,000 which the right hon. Gentleman now says these benefits will require in five years' time.
There is another matter to which I wish to allude. In answer to a question in this House on the 16th March, 1925, the right hon. Gentleman said that there the amount of accumulated funds invested by, or on behalf of, approved societies was £44,000,000. and Statutory Funds invested with the National Debt Commissioners amounted to £66.000,000, the reserve values outstanding amounting to £105,000.000 on the 31st of December, 1923. When the National Health Insurance Act was passed, definite undertakings were given that the profits' over and above the benefits and cost of administration should inure to their benefit, and, therefore, you cannot take away from the approved societies what you guaranteed they should retain. Is there not some means of utilising the other two figures, if you back them up by State guarantees, so as to relieve the burden on the Exchequer, and make it possible to reduce the contributions for which this Bill asks?
There is one other way of finding the money, and that is by exercising economy in the fighting services. We have had this year the first Budget introduced since the War which shows an increase in expenditure. That increase is not due to expenditure on education or upon social services, and, therefore, if the Government were to use the pruning hook in the fighting departments, they would be able to find funds which would make it unnecessary to put these heavy burdens on the workers. We have heard about the burden being placed on industry, but in my view by far the greater part of that burden will be put on the workers and not on the employers. I think it would be possible not only to give these benefits without increasing the contributions, but even to provide greater benefits.
There is no doubt that 10s. is not sufficient to give to a widow, and she will continue to have to go to the Poor Law unless she obtains employment. Then, again, I do not quite know why it is necessary to draw a distinction between the children of widows and orphans. The children of a widow receive 5s., and orphan children 7s. 6d., but I do not see why it should be more expensive to maintain an orphan than the child of a widow, and I think they should be both placed upon the basis of Vs. 6d. With regard to a certain class of small people who do not come within the scope of this Bill, the right hon. Gentleman said that to include them would necessitate varying the contributions, and this would lead to many practical difficulties. I cannot help thinking that any large insurance company would not find it outside the range of possibility to prepare a scheme and policies which would enable them to insure people who wish to secure similar and even larger benefits.
The Minister of Health said he felt great sympathy for this class, and he hoped it might be possible to do something for them. I hope the right hon. Gentleman and his Department will devote careful attention to this matter to see whether it is not possible to adopt a scheme of this kind which would be a great boon and benefit to the people who do not come within the scope of National Health Insurance, but whose incomes are small, and upon whom the burdens and anxieties of life press very hardly at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman very properly drew attention to the expense the-scheme involved and to the burden which it might ultimately entail upon the Government. I cannot speak as an authority upon actuarial matters, but I do think that the actuary in this case has proceeded upon a very careful and conservative basis. Of course he is not to blame for that, because he has to protect the Exchequer, but the large sums to which I have referred which stand to the credit of the accumulated funds of the National Health Insurance show that the contributions levied under that Act were larger than was necessary to provide the benefits, and I think it will be found that under this scheme the contributions are larger than are necessary for securing the limited benefits which this Bill provides.
I think the burden imposed upon industry could be lessened, and the benefits it seeks to provide could be increased. I have heard a discussion as to how far this Bill will benefit personally those who support or oppose it. For my part I do not care one way or the other about it. A scheme of this sort is one of those things which makes it worth while to continue in public life. The opportunity of doing something which will improve the conditions of a very large number of the poorer classes of the community is something which must appeal to every man and woman throughout the land, and for that reason, in spite of the fact that the Bill is in my judgment open to many practical Amendments which would make it a better, a more serviceable, and a more useful Bill, for my part I shall cordially support the Second Reading.
I desire to claim the indulgence of the House, because this is the first time I have addressed it. I will not trespass too freely upon that indulgence. I desire to say how very heartily and strongly I support the scheme which has been brought forward by the Government. What specially commends it to me is the fact that it is of a contributory character, and that brings it within the ambit of insurance, and it is practically an extension of the existing insurance scheme. I am very much surprised that hon. Members opposite calling themselves Socialists, professing a desire to do something in the direction of securing social service, should propose an Amendment like this which cuts out the co-operative element altogether.
8.0 P.M.
Insurance is a social service, if ever there were one. What is insurance? It is a scheme under which certain people come together and form them selves into a mutual aid society, whereby the fortunate bear the burdens of the unfortunate, and, in doing so, benefit themselves also. There is a double benefit in insurance; there is the direct benefit to a man who receives the amount against which he has insured, and there is the indirect benefit— which is no less a benefit because it cannot be measured in pounds, shillings and pence—whereby he receives an assurance that from the calamity which he has insured against he will, in its worse consequences, at any rate, be relieved. Under this Bill, for example, which, as I understand, will be amalgamated with the other Insurance Acts at present in existence, the man who pays in his pence week by week will receive, in exchange for his contribution, an assurance against sickness or sudden death, and provision for his old age should he attain it—perhaps not all the ills that flesh is heir to, but at any rate a large proportion of them. As he pays in his contribution week by week, so he gets that assurance week by week, giving him confidence and strength; and I think it is very good value for ninepence.
There is another point to which I should like to draw the attention of the House, and that is that for success there must be co-operation of all concerned in an insurance scheme. Insurance, of course, has been of immense value to the commercial community, and not only to the commercial community, but to all classes of persons in this country. It is, perhaps, not too much, when we remember the tremendous risks, the fearful calamities which are guarded against by insurance, by bearing one another's burdens, to say that insurance has been the linch-pin of our industrial, commercial and financial progress. As we all know, it is now desired, as it was when insurance schemes were first put forward in this House, that there should be a great effort on the part of this House to extend those benefits to all classes of the community.
In this connection I should like to say a word or two on the subject of the actuarial basis upon which this Bill is founded. That actuarial basis is, no doubt, calculated, as there is plenty of material for so doing, on the experience of voluntary associations that have been operating now for a great many years, combined with the usual statistics. That is a good, sound basis, but notwithstanding that basis, the actuarial calculations are a guess, and they may be falsified in one direction or another. The direction in which they may be falsified largely turns on the amount and degree of co-operation which can be secured among the contributors. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his opening speech on the Budget, spoke of the wonders of modern accountancy in nation-wide assurance. I should like to remind the House that those wonders were based on calculations made from previous insurance schemes, and that ultimately they were based simply on British character. It is on British character, and on the capacity of British character to adapt itself to playing the game in insurance schemes, that these great successes of the past have been achieved. If, therefore, we want corresponding success in order that we may get greater benefits, we must all of us endeavour to co-operate in that way.
There is one feature of this scheme which I do not like, though I recognise that it is a necessity, and that is the compulsory character of the scheme. Of course, that is now a foregone conclusion; to get a scheme on this basis with a uniform contribution from all alike it is, no doubt, necessary. But the great successes of insurance schemes in the past have been largely due to the cooperation of which I have been speaking, and that co-operation is much more likely to come into effect in a voluntary than in a compulsory scheme. No man goes into a voluntary scheme unless he knows something about it. He will not put his name to a contract unless he can understand something of it. Therefore, when he enters into an insurance, his education in insurance begins from that moment. That is not quite the case in a compulsory scheme. If he is compelled to come in, he naturally, perhaps, does not take much interest in it, and, as Englishmen, as a rule, do not like compulsion, possibly in many cases they feel a certain amount of opposition to the scheme. That does not encourage them to understand the meaning of insurance as they should do to make the undertaking a success. Therefore, I would like to make this suggestion to the House and to the Government, that the disadvantages which accrue, and must accrue, from having a compulsory scheme, should be got over by a campaign of education as to what insurance really means.
May I illustrate my meaning by glancing for a moment at the Unemployment Insurance scheme, which has been so prominently before the House lately? It is alleged that, under this Insurance, many persons are drawing benefit who were not intended to draw benefit, and who ought not to draw benefit, and that many persons continue to draw benefit when they might not do so. I do not wish on this occasion to make allegations, but to say that there may be a large number of persons who are drawing benefit because they do not fully understand the meaning and nature of insurance. I cannot help thinking that a large number of contributors to these schemes look upon the State rather in the light of a banker than, shall we say, a broker of social services, which, as far as I understand the matter, is the real position of the State in this regard. They look upon their contributions as something still belonging to themselves, as a kind of banking account which is piling up and from which, after a year or two, they begin to feel they have a right to draw out something. That is not the right way to look at insurance. As we have seen the contributor gets his benefit the moment he pays in his contribution, and that money must be looked upon as belonging to the total society of persons in the scheme. If we can induce more people to look upon the matter in the right way, there is not the slightest doubt that we can very much increase the benefits. That is how the triumphs of insurance—and we have all heard of those triumphs—have been obtained in the past, namely, by people understanding the matter, and not drawing out benefits without due cause, so that the scheme is worked to the best advantage of those who really deserve it, and really need it. I should also like to put forward another suggestion, and that is in regard to the voluntary contributors, whom the Minister of Health stated he could not fit into this scheme. Might it not be possible to allow persons of 16 years of age, provided they are healthy, to come in on a voluntary basis? That, of course, is not, perhaps, a very large section of society, but, after all, this scheme is going on for a great many years. I understand that the scheme is on the basis that a person 16 years of age coming in would not require any State help at all, and, therefore, I would like respectfully to make this suggestion to the Government, that, possibly, voluntary contributors might come in at 16 years of age, provided that they were healthy.
I welcome this scheme because it is one which I believe can be of very considerable benefit to the people of this country. If they understand and co-operate in it and work together, they can, undoubtedly, get increased benefits beyond what are already given. That is always possible, and he would be a bold man who would set limits to what could be done by co-operative insurance in this way. But I also welcome the scheme because it is one more evidence that the Conservative party has its feet firmly set on the pathway of social reform. This party has always had as an ideal the benefiting of the people of this country, and it has carried out that ideal before ever the working classes of this country had the franchise at all, or before ever that franchise was even practical politics. When hon. Members opposite endeavour, as they are continually doing, to show that we of this party are simply acting in our own selfish interests, or that we are simply banded together to keep a few individuals in high places who have no right to be there, then we can remember the great and outstanding fact that the Tory party has always had social betterment as one of its great ideals.
There is one thing on which we are all agreed, and that is the object of the Bill. As to the necessity of widows' pensions, there is now no difference of opinion. All parties are agreed that the reform which this Bill seeks to realise has been accepted by the State, and the only questions now at issue are as to the method, the incidence and the effects of any particular system which may be finally adopted. The blot upon the Bill so far as we on this side are concerned is that it un- questionably seeks to impose upon the poor the obligation of meeting the difficulties of the poor. It is calling upon the wage earners at the bottom rungs of the scale of life to meet the obligations which belong of right to the nation as a whole, and from that point of view we contend that the Bill is entirely inequitable. Several remarks have been made by hon. Members opposite and hon. Members below the Gangway on this side as to the desirability of a contributory system of pensions from the point of view that the people who are called upon to make contributions are much more satisfied to do so than to have the benefits provided without contribution. I do not want to use an offensive word, but those who make that statement are talking rubbish. No one who is acquainted with everyday working-class life can have any doubt in his mind that the 15,000,000 people who now have to contribute to the Health Insurance scheme week by week would like that scheme a good deal better if they did not have their wages docked every week in order to provide the money, so that it is talking with one's tongue in one's cheek to say that the workers are anxious to contribute to the scheme.
But I have a much more fundamental objection, and I think we all have, and I hope in this matter we might associate with the Labour party hon. Members below the Gangway. We have a fundamental objection to the great mass of the people, whose incomes in the overwhelming number of cases will barely provide them with the most elementary needs of life, being called upon to contribute out of their meagre income to these schemes when at the same time there are enormous funds of wealth enjoyed by people who are not pinched and who, out of their amplitude of means, could provide everything that is required. It is on that ground that we oppose a contributory scheme. In taking that stand we are on very sound ground. It has been an accepted principle in legislation for at least two generations, as embodied in the principles of the Income Tax, that people whose incomes are below a certain amount ought not to be called upon to contribute directly towards the upkeep of the country. It is only when the income arises above a certain standard of fundamental necessities that people should be called upon to pay contributions at all. Year by year that amount has been lifted. In the present Budget it is lifted again, in the case of a married couple, to £250.
While under existing circumstances I am entirely opposed to this principle of a contributory scheme, yet I can conceive circumstances under which we should not be opposed to it. If the State was of such a democratic character that you had a system of national government under which there was practically little or any unearned income going to people for no services rendered, we should not object to it. But whilst there are enormous margins of wealth enjoyed by people in comfortable circumstances, there is no need to ask the poor to pay an additional burden out of their low wages. May I call attention to an answer given last week as to the number of persons enjoying incomes of over £5,000 a year. The answer showed that in 1914 there were 15,000 persons, and in 1925 25,000. One does not dispute that in some trades there is no margin of profit at all, but none the less the outstanding fact is that the number of persons enjoying unearned incomes is constantly on the increase. If one takes the Chancellor's statement with regard to the amount received in Income Tax, one finds this startling figure. In 1924–25 the receipts were £273,800,000. The estimate for next year, on the existing basis of taxation is £289,000,000, or £15,000,000 more than last year. So long as there is this ample wealth enjoyed by well-to-do people it is mean and despicable to ask the workers to contribute to the pensions scheme as a whole.
But there are other considerations on which I should like to touch. There is, for instance, the effect this scheme is going to have upon the wages of those who are in employment. The childless widow of 21 or 22 will receive her 10s. a week under this Bill. She has no burdens. She is just as eligible for the ordinary avocations of labour as any other single woman. She may perhaps be in domestic service. Under this Bill, she is going to have a kind of premium of 10s. a week. One can see how that will operate. The employer who requires a domestic servant, if she knows that the person she is going to employ is a widow who has become a widow since this Bill came into operation, will know that she has a pension of 10s. a week. That will be a conscious induce- ment on every occasion for the employer to cut down the woman as far as rates of wages are concerned.
No.
The hon. Member who interrupts has perhaps not closely studied this matter.
You said, "on every occasion," I say, no.
The same influence will apply in the case of the aged man who becomes entitled to a pension at 65 years of age. Where you have a man in a fairly good physical condition in a skilled trade at 65 years of age receiving, because of the work done by his trade organisation, the recognised standard rate of wages, in addition to this pension, employers will be influenced to suggest that he does not need to have 10s. more than the recognised standard rate of wages. I would have liked to have seen the Government put into this Bill some evidence of their sincerity in the matter. If the Government had inserted a Clause providing that nothing in the Bill with regard to benefits shall entitle an employer to pay less wages than he would have done had the Bill not come into operation, I could have understood their sincerity. I hope the Minister will see his way to insert such a Clause in the Bill as would make it a penal offence for any employer to offer to a workman or a workwoman less wages than he would have done had the Bill not come into operation. These are a few considerations which I submit to the House, and I hope before the Bill passes that they will receive consideration.
This Measure particularly appeals to me, because for some time past I have preached the necessity for old age and widows' pensions. It has not been a matter of pure election talk with me, but a matter in which I have taken deep interest. I have endeavoured, as far as possible, to educate the people to the advantages and the necessities of such a scheme as is now before the House. This scheme has the advantage that it is welcomed by all parties. It is welcomed by the Government supporters because it is a fulfilment of a promise which has been long made and is now going to be performed. Its principle is accepted by the Labour party, who have long promised but not performed.
According to the very remarkable speech made by the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), they have apparently neglected to put their great scheme into operation, because they wanted to wait until the time when they could give it to the people without any contributions. I have always had a suspicion of things which are given for nothing. I have always looked upon them as having a catch somewhere. After the promise which has been made, in season and out of season, by the Labour party of old age and widows' pensions for nothing, the country have at last discovered that the promise had a snag in it They had an opportunity of bringing forward their scheme last year and asking the House for financial support, but they failed to do so. The Liberal party are also in favour of the scheme. Their criticism, as far as it has been given to-day by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), only goes to this extent, that although they are in favour of a contributory scheme the moment is not quite ripe for it.
I believe that this scheme will be welcomed by the workers of this country. Some outcry will, no doubt, be made because there is an increase in the contributions to be found by the employers and the employed; but when employers and employed realise what this scheme means, the objections from the financial and contributory point of view will disappear, and their minds will be concentrated upon the benefits and the relief which is to be given to the women who may be left as widows, and the children who are left without father. I have always realised that one of the darkest moments a man can have as he approaches the age of 45 or 50 is to look into what must be in many cases a very dark and black future. He thinks what is going to happen to him when old age comes upon him and he can no longer work. It may be that he has some children, but his pride is too great to allow him to place himself upon their charity. It may be that his children have not grown up, and if failing health is his lot he begins to wonder what is to become of his wife and children when he is gone.
To-day there is a ray of hope. The black picture upon which he has looked for a good many years is going to be lightened. I am in agreement with hon. Members of the Labour party, who say that the amount which is to be paid either by way of widows' pensions or pension for the children is inadequate and will not be sufficient to meet all their needs. But I have been taught, and I thought it was an axiom well understood by the people of this country, that half a loaf was better than no bread. However small the amount may be, it will be welcome. The right hon. Member for Shettleston said that the widow with two children would receive 18s. Surely, 18s. is a very much better prospect for a widow and her two children than is her lot to-day if the breadwinner goes. At all events, 18s. will provide a roof over the heads of the woman and her children.
The Minister of Health in introducing the Measure spoke of the various parties who would be called in to co-operate in its administration. He referred, as did the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, to the great work done by the approved societies. The Minister of Health has provided in the Bill for the continuation of the co-operation of the approved societies. I am not in a position to speak for the approved societies as a whole but I have some authority for saying that a group of approved societies, representing some 6,000,000 of the insured population, have viewed this Measure with a very careful and critical eye, and are prepared to give their helpful cooperation. The co-operation as at present outlined in the Bill is somewhat indefinite. In the past, the approved societies have done the major portion of the work in connection with the administration of benefit and the collection of contributions. Certain work has, of course, been done by the insurance committees and by the central office, but the great work of the approved societies, and what I believe led to the success of the Insurance Act in the beginning, was the novel scheme of payment by contributions by stamps upon a card, and the collection of those cards by the agents of the approved societies. To-day the position is that in order that the scheme may be placed upon its cheapest basis the co-operation of the societies is sought. A single card and a single stamp are to be the recognition and the receipt for the payment of the two benefits for sickness and old age pensions. The Minister of Health referred this afternoon to the fact that two or three years ago the question was considered as to whether it was possible to amalgamate the two schemes of health insurance and unemployment insurance, and I believe the first question to be considered -was whether it was possible to have one card with one stamp.
It was pointed out, and, I believe, admitted, that if that rule came into operation it would mean a saving of something like £1,000,000 a year, and if that system came into operation now, and the societies were to collect the one card, there would be effected through the agency of the approved societies a saving of £1,000,000 in the cost of this scheme. It is said that the man who has to collect the card, with the higher valued stamp on the single card, has no extra work. I am not sure that I am prepared to admit that. This may appear to be quite simple, but I do not think that the Government should blind themselves to the fact that there will be additional work imposed upon the societies, and that this will involve the necessity of making charges. What those charges may be is a matter for determination by the Minister after consultation with the societies. Speaking solely for the group to which I have referred, I think it will be found that the Minister has a very helpful and very good ally in this matter.
Turn for a moment to the question of the beneficiaries under this Bill. If I have any criticism to make it is in respect to two parties. One is the childless widow and the other is the voluntary contributor. By the childless widow I mean the widow who has not borne a child. I think that we are, perhaps, wasting some of the money which we ought very earnestly to conserve in giving benefits to the childless widow under the age of 30 or 35. Is the position of the childless widow of a young age any different from that of the single woman? Why should you endow her with 10s. a week at that early age? I would suggest to the Minister that her position might be met in this way. For a short period after the death of the husband, say for a period of six months, the pension might be paid to give her an opportunity of looking around and fitting herself for her former occupation. But, until she reaches an age when it would be unreasonable to expect a woman to look around and find work such as she was accustomed to in her earlier days, I do not think that the pension ought to be paid except in the particular circumstances to which I have referred. It is not easy for a woman who has left her occupation for 20 or 25 years to endeavour at the age of 50 to return to that occupation at a time when particular skill is required. I think that she would probably find it exceedingly hard. For that reason the childless widow would receive my great sympathy at the age of 50 or even, perhaps, 45, but to give the pension at the younger ages, I think would be a mistake, and I believe that the women of this country would oppose very strongly the proposal to endow with a pension of 10s. a week a childless widow under the age of 35.
Coming to the voluntary contributor, the voluntary contributor to whom I refer is not the person who is to be brought into the scheme who is outside the realm of sickness insurance, but the person who has been insured for not less than 104 weeks, but, having obtained a salary in excess of the sum at which insurance is permitted at the present time, having arrived at the stage of having £250 in the year, has elected to continue under the sickness insurance. That person under this scheme seems to me to have an injustice inflicted upon him. The scheme says that any voluntary contributor may elect, within the prescribed time, to continue as a voluntary contributor, but if he does so he must be a voluntary contributor not only for sickness, insurance on which he has made his selection, but also for the pensions insurance. I submit that, if such a proposal were made by a private institution, it would call forth considerable criticism from this House.
May I put the case in a plain way? A man is insured with one of the insurance companies at l0d. a week. He has been insured for a few years when the company says "We have a new scheme which we are about to put into operation, which will cost you 1s. 6d. a week, and we give you some benefit more than you got for the l0d. a week, but unless you take out our new policy at 1s. 6d. you will not be allowed to remain insured under your old contract of l0d. a week." That is the position under this. The man has elected to remain on sickness insurance and to be a voluntary contributor at l0d. a week, but the State says "We have another scheme involving pensions for yourself and your widow "—the man, remember, is not compulsorily insured—"and you must pay another 8d. a week. Otherwise you cannot remain under the scheme." I submit that that is a matter which might well be considered by the Minister. He has promised to give consideration to amendments put forward, and I hope that he will take into consideration this particular question.
I wish to refer now to the question of excepted persons under the Act. Excepted persons are those who are excepted from health insurance, because the schemes provided in the course of their employment gave them benefits equal to or greater than those which were obtained under the Insurance Act. And under the proposed schemes, the excepted persons would be called upon to pay a small contribution,, that is 2d. by the employer and 2d. by the insured person, towards the pension scheme if the scheme of pensions in their particular firm is one which has statutory sanction. I think the example given in the explanatory note relates to railways, teachers, local authorities and others. There are in existence many pension schemes among great banks, insurance companies, and private firms, in some cases contributory and in others not, and binding upon the employers. The positions of the persons in these employments are as good and as well secured as under any statutory scheme. I submit that the Minister might well consider the exception of schemes which, to the satisfaction of his officers, are proved to be as sound and satisfactory as are the statutory schemes. The cost of administration the actuary estimates at £500,000 after 1928, and prior to that time about £300,000 a year. We shall have to wait and see how the duties are to be spread, to what extent the amount of £500,000 is to be spent upon Post Office administration, and how much, if any at all, is to be spent upon local authorities. Local authorities are mentioned in the Bill, but so far no description has been given as to the functions of those local authorities or as to their cost.
The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs spoke of the desirability of retaining the approved societies as part of the administrative force. He gave an outline of some of the duties that would be imposed upon officers who had to administer the scheme, and I think that he had in mind—I am not sure whether he did refer to it—the possibility of deception and fraud. He also inferred that a very large army of inspectors would be required for the overwatching of claims. It is probably well known to some Members of the House that schemes of health insurance do not develop absolute honesty. It has been necessary for certain watch guards to be placed on people who subscribe to them. Although the opportunity may not be so great and so easy under a scheme of pensions as under a scheme of health insurance, it is possible that certain safeguards will have to be developed as time goes on, and that that is a class—it may be a large one or a small one—which has to be taken into consideration by the House when we come to administration.
Those are my criticisms on the Measure itself. I want to be a helpful critic. I have had experience which, perhaps, greatly helps me. It has been my lot to deal with many millions in connection with health insurance, and such experience and knowledge as I have is to be placed freely not only at the disposal of my party, but at the disposal of the House, because I believe this is a scheme which in principle is recognised and welcomed by all parties in the House, and that, whether it be contributory or non-contributory, all parties must do their best to make it a perfect scheme for the benefit of the people. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs suggested that he was not altogether in favour of pensions at 65, that he would rather the age had been 70, and that he would have devoted some portion of the amount to be spent on the pension from 65 to 70 in providing invalidity payment. He gave us the picture of the man of 40 or 45 broken down in health, with a wife and children, and perhaps with little more than the amount provided under the Insurance Act. Insurance in respect of those persons of 64 or 70 has to a very large extent been anticipation of old age pensions. Many people at 65 may not be altogether capable of work, but they get into that condition which excites almost the same sympathy, namely, that they are unemployable, and when a man is unemployable, plus perhaps some failing in health, it is not difficult to find a sympathetic practitioner who is prepared to certify that man as incapable of work, so that in fact the Insurance Act has to a large extent anticipated old age pensions at 65 to 70.
It would be very much better for the people, and better from the point of view of the employment of the younger people, and that great mass of unemployed whom we all deplore, that we should find that the man naturally and reasonably may come forward and ask at 65, "Let me go and enjoy in leisure and at ease the balance of my years." For that privilege I believe we shall find that the people of this country are only too anxious to pay. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs thought that this scheme was incomplete because it had not made provision for death benefit. The two great schemes of social insurance which have been introduced into this country have been: health insurance, to provide for the period of sickness, and the other the scheme which we are discussing now. The first scheme of health insurance was introduced because a certain number of people—I believe the right hon. Gentleman mentioned something like 6,000,000—had of their own volition banded themselves together to provide for the contingency of sickness. But it was a contingency common to all men and women. The right hon. Gentleman, the author of that Measure, thought the time had arrived to provide a sickness insurance because sickness insurance was by no means universal.
The scheme before the House to-day is a pension scheme, put into operation to a small extent by some of the more advanced and perhaps the more intelligent employers of the day. But pension schemes and widows' schemes are unknown and alien to the majority of people of this country. They have not contemplated these as among the contingencies for which they ought to provide. Somehow or other men, either through lack of means or because they hope that the worst will never happen, have ignored that vital provision. The question of death benefit has always loomed largely before the men and women of this country. Whatever they might have hoped to escape, they knew they never could escape death. The private enterprise of this country has provided death insurance which has been taken up on all hands. The right hon. Gentleman referred to something like 50,000,000 policies for death insurance. That is a matter which is not of great urgency from the national point of view. It cannot be said that the people have not made provision for some death payment; it cannot be said that the great institutions of this country have not provided insurance at a reasonable rate. We are by no means blest with too much money in this country, and urgent and anxious as we are to see necessary things provided, we cannot afford to throw away money upon the provision of a benefit that the people of this country have already provided for themselves. I believe this Measure will be of incalculable value to the people of this country, and in a short time, when the benefits have been put into operation and when they are known and appreciated, the people will not curse the day on which the Government brought in this contributory scheme, but they will, like Oliver Twist, ask for more.
I was one of those who welcomed the words in the Speech from the Throne in which widows' pensions were foreshadowed. I did so because this reform has always been very near to my heart, and though I recognised that the scheme, which the Government were likely to bring forward, would not be the scheme which I would have brought forward myself, nevertheless, I thought that something good would come out of it, and that it would be better than nothing at all. It is in that spirit that I have examined the scheme, first outlined by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to-day advocated by the Minister of Health. The question I put with regard to it is this: What is the position of the young man or woman starting in life to-day at the age of 16 and the position of similar young men and women who will be starting life in 10 or 20 years time? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, and a great many speakers in this House have claimed, that the Government by this Measure are conferring a considerable boon upon the working people of this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it so great a boon as to be an adequate set-off to the reduction of over £30,000,000 in Income Tax. The fact is—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Health have admitted it—that, so far as the man or woman of 16 entering this scheme is concerned, the State contributes absolutely nothing towards this proposal. It is one of the merits claimed for the scheme by-its supporters that, so far as the coming generation is concerned, they cost no contribution from the State and, therefore, we are driven to the conclusion that it is on the share borne by the workman and the share borne by the employer that the whole burden of the scheme rests.
I do not propose to weary the House by going in great detail over the argument that the share borne by the employer does not ultimately rest upon him. Hon. Members must see that in those industries where large numbers of workpeople are employed, the employer will inevitably pass that charge on either to the consumer in some of the sheltered trades or to the workpeople in the trades in which there is foreign competition. It is quite true that where a person employs a secretary or employs only one or two people and pays wages at a round figure of £3 or £4 a week, such a person will pay the extra 4d. out of his or her own pocket, but where you are dealing with a trade like the steel trade or with the mines and you have already contributions from the employer of 7d. for this and 10d. for that, and this 4d. is added on, I do not think there is any doubt whatever that in the long run the employer's contribution will really fall upon the workman. The employer seeking to make a profit will reckon the cost of the workman's insurance as part of the outgoings on his wages bill, whereas in so far as benefits are reckoned to accrue to the workpeople, the workpeople will be more contented and therefore, possibly, will be induced to accept a lower wage. I think when we examine this theory we shall find it correct to conclude that both the workman's share and the employer's share ultimately come out of the wages of the worker. If we admit that, then we are forced to the view that this scheme is simply a matter of putting upon the work person the whole cost of the benefits to be received. On these working men and women fall the whole cost of insurance in regard to the old age pensions and the pensions for widows provided under this Bill.
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That is not all. The Bill goes further. Not only does it throw upon working men and women the whole cost of the new benefits which the Bill proposes to confer, but it actually throws upon them the cost of some of those benefits which they already get for nothing. One has only to turn to the report of the Government actuary— page 9—to find a frank statement of the position. It is made perfectly clear that young men and women of 16 years of age entering the scheme this year, in addition to paying for all new benefits they receive will be paying 20 per cent. of the old age pensions over 70. If they enter the scheme in 1936 they will Be paying 55 per cent. of the old age pensions, as well as paying for all other benefits which the scheme conferred. If they enter in 1946 they pay 80 per cent. of old age pensions, while those who enter in 1956 and afterwards pay the whole cost of the present old age pensions. Therefore it is clear that this Bill so far as it confers any benefits upon young men and women entering the scheme at the age of 16 causes them to pay for the whole of those benefits which they receive and takes away from them benefits which they now obtain for nothing. Talk of feeding a dog on its own tail! This is a much worse proceeding because it cuts off the tail of the dog, gives the dog half the tail as an addition to its food and substitutes the remaining half for a dinner which in any case would have been provided by other means. For that reason I find the scheme objectionable. The hon. Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam) enlarged upon the value of insurance. This Bill is an insurance Bill and not a Contributory Pensions Bill at all. It is solely an insurance Bill so far as those people who are under 16 to-day are concerned. For them the State makes no contribution whatever and it takes away from them what it already has been understood to give them.
I would remind those who think an insurance scheme a good scheme that it is one thing to have a voluntary scheme of insurance in which the State pays nothing, but it is quite another thing to have a compulsory scheme of insurance in which the State pays nothing, because in a voluntary scheme, at any rate, persons have the right to come in or to stay out, and if their circumstances are such that they stand to lose more by coming in than by staying out, they need not come in at all, but if you have a compulsory scheme, it is most unjust to compel whole classes of people to come under such a scheme, who from the very nature of the case, stand to lose from it more than they gain. I do not use hard words as a rule, but I do not think, under these circumstances, it is saying too much when I say that this scheme, so far as the people who are not yet 16, the future generation, are concerned, is an absolute fraud, because, while pretending to be a contributory scheme of insurance, it is, in fact, a scheme for getting money out of them from which they will not even get the whole benefit themselves. One of the objects of doing that undoubtedly is to relieve the rates, because a great many of the so-called benefits under this scheme at present fall upon the rates.
At the present time a widow with three children generally gets, in my constituency, as much as £2 a week, because it is recognised that she cannot otherwise keep three children unless she gets some such sum from the guardians. This Bill gives her 21s., and I want to know what she is going to do. What do the promoters of the scheme really expect her to do? Do they expect her to go to the guardians and make up the balance of the money she is getting at present, or do they want to deprive her of the benefits she now gets from the guardians and send her out to work? That is a very serious matter, which the promoters ought to consider, but, whatever view they take, it is clear that the 21s. which they are giving is, at any rate, intended to be in relief of the rates. I would contrast that with what takes place in the United States of America, where they have a pensions scheme for widows which is adequate. It varies in the different States, but in every case it is an amount that is adequate to enable the woman to live and keep her children. It may be said that there is not enough money to do that in this scheme, but the reason why there is not enough money is that this Bill does not make any State contribution at all, so far as boys and girls who come into the scheme are concerned, and it is that part of the scheme that seems to me foreign to its title and quite out of keeping with the ideas formed of it by hon. Members opposite.
In regard to the finance of the Bill, what the Bill really does is to create a capital liability of £750,000,000 on behalf of those entrants into the scheme who are already getting on in life. Instead of meeting that to-day, instead of paying the interest on it from to-day, it thrusts right into the remote future the meeting of that amount. In other words, it throws on to the backs of the young men and women, who are not yet 16 years of age, all the cost of their own benefits, the cost of the old age pensions which at the present time they would get for nothing, and, in addition to that, it throws on them, as part of the taxpayers of this country, the cost of the burden of finding this capital sum, of paying compound interest on the £750,000,000 which is for the persons who are at present getting on in life.
Another point seems to me to be very important. This scheme, for the very reason that it is contributory, is not all-inclusive. Hon. Members may say, "Well, if the scheme presses hardly upon people, why should you want it to be all-embacing?" There is this advantage, however, in a general scheme, that there you are meeting in every case certain contingencies that fall on all people, but it is a grave disadvantage in a scheme like this, that there are certain people who do not come into it, however deserving they may be, as the Minister admitted.
I would put before the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health a case that, unless I have misunderstood the Bill, is, I suggest, a very serious one indeed. Take the case of a young woman who enters upon employment. She contributes for years to this fund, and she then marries a man who, because he has an income just above the health limit, which is £250, I think, is not an insurable person. Thereat, she passes out of the scheme so far as certain benefits are concerned. In two or three years' time, after she has borne a couple of children, her husband dies. As I understand it, she will not get a widow's benefit or benefit on account of her children, and I suggest that it is a very grave thing that a woman who has contributed for, perhaps, 10 or 15 years to the scheme, should, just because her husband has £255 a year and lives only a few years, pass out of the scheme, and not get a widow's or widowed mother's pension. If I am wrong, I have no doubt the Minister will correct me.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he felt it was a pity some people were outside the scheme, but that he saw no means of bringing them in. That seems to me the fundamental objection to this contributory principle. It picks and chooses, quite improperly. In America, it does not pauperise the people to introduce pensions on a non-contributory basis, and I cannot see that it would do so here. It is quite true that people prize benefits for which they pay, but I think the case of the widow with young children is in a different category. She is not receiving a benefit when she receives these pensions; she is receiving something in order to enable her to carry out one of the duties which are of an advantage to the State. It is immensely to the advantage of the State that children should be cared for and brought up properly, and in the United States of America, and in other countries which have got widows' pensions, they pay to the widowed mothers a sum of money weekly in order that they may do this duty to the State, namely, care for the children, and I see no reason whatever why that should not be done in this country as well.
Finally, I would like to say this: I have purposely not gone into the main question of contributory or non-contributory pensions, because that has been the burden of a great many speeches on this side. I have endeavoured to show the effects of the particular contributory system which this Bill embodies, but I would point out that the reason why I have always favoured a non-contributory rather than a contributory scheme is this, that, whereas a contributory scheme falls on industry, a non-contributory scheme falls on the wealth of the country. The hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) said he saw no difference, that, ultimately, whatever amount was put on, in whatever form, it all fell on the back of industry. There, I think, he is entirely wrong. I think the incidence of a burden makes all the difference to its effect, and the burden that falls on wages and the employer is, in my opinion, a handicap on industry. But if, instead of that, the burden was made to fall on wealth, as it could be made if it came out of taxes, and as it would have been made if it had been made a non-contributory scheme and the sixpence on the Income Tax had not been taken off, it would have been very much better for industry, it would have made a scheme that was really universal, and it would have been one which we, on this side, could have fully and adequately supported.
I rise to intervene for the first time in Debate, because I have had a little practical experience, having been a contributor for 22 years to a compulsory Government scheme somewhat similar in some of its features to the scheme we are now considering. I refer to the scheme known as the Indian Military Family Pension Fund. I think it was 33 years ago that, as a young subaltern, I started contributing to that fund. I contributed for 22 years. I was only a contributor. I was not a beneficiary, I am glad to say, because my wife is not yet a widow. I would like to explain the amount of the contributions we paid, and what the benefits were that we hoped, eventually, our widows and children would get, and I think hon. Members opposite who fulminate against the size of the contributions of the present scheme and against the smallness of the benefits, will open their eyes when I tell them what I suffered for 22 years.
This scheme was divided into five classes, according to the rank and pay of the contributor. I need not go into them all, but I will take the lowest class, namely, Class V, which consisted of officers of less than nine years' service, that is, officers to about 29 years of age. They contributed 1s. 9d. weekly, I have brought it down to the weekly amount, though, as a matter of fact, we contributed monthly, because it was cut out of our pay, which was monthly. They contributed that amount in order to ensure for their potential widows a sum of £40 per year, or 15s. 5d. per week. I think all Members will agree that those terms were considerably harder than those in the present scheme. That was a bachelor's contribution. If the young subaltern were rash enough to marry, first of all he had to pay a donation amounting to considerably over a month's pay. Then, his monthly contribution was increased from the rate of 1s. 9d. per week to 4s. 5d. per week. That is not all. If his union were blessed, and a son born, he had to pay a donation of £15. If a daughter were born, he had to pay a donation of £21. He had also to pay an additional monthly subscription for each son and each daughter, and yet all he could hope to get out of this scheme was 15s. 5d. per week for his widow and a pension for his children. Hon. Members have fulminated, as I say, against the meanness of the present scheme and used very lurid language on the subject, but I wonder what their language would be of the scheme under which I suffered for 22 years. I think their language would astonish even an old soldier like myself.
There is another point in this scheme to which I should like to draw attention. It will have been noticed that we had a difference of contribution according to the potential benefit which the contributor hoped to draw from the fund. I contend that that was a fair thing. I would like to take the case of a bachelor or a spinster under the present scheme. After all, all bachelors are not voluntary. Occasionally you will find one who has been crossed in love, or one who does not care to drag a wife down to his level, or until he has made provision of a proper home for her. Why should that man contribute the whole of his life 4d. a week in order to ensure the peace of mind of a fellow-citizen who marries, perhaps rashly, and, no doubt, breeds recklessly? Take the case of the spinsters —take the worthy domestic servant, whom we have should be based on the amount of benefit which the contributor hoped to get out of the scheme. I think it would be fair to all concerned, and I think by that means we might manage to get a higher amount than 10s. a week for the beneficiary.
There is another point to which I should like to draw attention in this connection. This House is continually debating the question of unemployment. How many people ever draw attention to the fact that unemployment primarily results from the over-population of this land? We hear about the brutal capitalist, and so on, but I believe that at the present day we have far more men in employment in this country than before the War, and if you ever want to get down to help the unemployed in this country, as I believe everyone in this House does, you have to do everything you can to prevent the reckless increase of population. Then why penalise the wise and prudent bachelor, and the lucky spinster, in order to help those who are going to increase your difficulties? Take, in common fairness, at any rate, larger contributions from those who are going to increase the population. I do not think for a moment that this question will be taken up by the Government, but I intend, if I can, in Committee, to move such an Amendment, because I am convinced, as we all hope to help unemployment in this country, whether we are believers in Capitalism under control, as I am, or in Socialism, as some hon. Members opposite are, all our difficulties in this country are owing to the enormous population on this small island, and under Socialism those difficulties would be a hundredfold intensified. In conclusion, I want, as a humble back bencher, to congratulate the Government on the first great step in what, I hope, is going to be a long career of great social reform, a career of social reform that will make this Parliament and this Government remembered through long years in England as one of the greatest Governments.
I would like to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe (Sir A. Knox) on his maiden speech. I think he is the first Member in this House making a maiden speech I have seen start on that great venture without notes, and I do not think his speech, if I may say so, suffered in consequence. But when he used these words:
"We must do everything to prevent the reckless increase of population,"
I ask, what on earth does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean? Does he suggest a compulsory system of birth-control? I wish he had enlarged a little on that topic. I have not heard anything quite so bold in this House.
I nearly stopped the hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe, but refrained on account of its being his maiden speech. The matter cannot now be pursued.
On turning to a very well-known work of reference I see the hon. and gallant Member served in India from 1091. [ Laughter. ] However, I very much agree with what he said about the childless woman, and I think something must be done about that. What will happen will be that these young women without children will go into an already overcrowded labour market. In turning to the Actuary's report, I cannot follow what the Minister of Health said on the subject, because I notice there become widows every year without children women, under the age of 25, 900; under 30, 1,200; 30 to 35, 900; and 35 to 40, 1,100. That is a very respectable total. Each year the young women will be paid 10s. a week until they come under the old age pension scheme, unless they marry again, which in many cases they will not do. That will encourage people not to have families. Already in the textile districts there is an extraordinary falling-off in the birth rate. I recently called the attention of the Minister of Health to the report of the medical officer of health for Bradford, in which he said that, owing to this fact, the whole of the population of Bradford will die out in three generations. In another textile district in Yorkshire the birth rate has fallen appallingly among textile workers. I think it is a very bad thing. I do not want to go into reasons now, but it is necessary to renew the race in the interests of the world. I do not put that plea forward on the ground that we must have "cannon fodder," but because we have got to have a healthy generation growing up all over the country. This subsidy to the childless widow does not encourage that at all, and I am going to fight against that provision in the Bill, and I hope other Members will also do so.
The other objection I have is to a Clause which causes great contention, and that is with regard to the non-contributory side. May I make this point, because I have not yet heard it referred to in the House? The employer of labour to-day has an enormous burden put upon him by having to contribute, under this Bill, on behalf of every workman. What about men who draw large incomes as professional men? Two right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench will appreciate what I am going to say. "Gentlemen of the long robe," or some of them, are earning very large incomes indeed, and employing two or three clerks and a few "devils" whom they do not pay at all— young barristers known as devils. A solicitor, of course, employs a few more clerks, but these employés are not to be compared with the number of workmen employed by an engineer or a mineowner.
Take the case of the actors, the music-hall artists, some of whom earn enormous salaries; film stars, authors and playwrights. Take the young man whose disgusting plays are ocupying no fewer than five theatres at the present time. He is making an enormous fortune, an enormous income, and pays nothing at all towards this. But shipbuilding firms, who are losing to-day, have this enormous burden cast on them. The same thing applies to architects and others who employ little or no labour, such as Cabinet Ministers who are badly paid, as one of my hon. Friends above the Gangway alleged. These are blemishes in this Bill, and I think they should be remedied.
As to the plea of the Minister of Health that the young man who marries thinks first of his wife, and if he is taken away she gets 10s. a week, that is all very well. But 10s. a week is not going to keep a woman in comfort. She will have to go to work or apply for poor relief. The man who wants to provide for his wife can do it by voluntary means through the great Friendly Societies. I understand the hon. Lady who is going to wind up the Debate for the Labour party is likely to have something to say on this subject. I wish I had taken the precaution of sounding her as to her views on this matter, but I hope she will think of this and of the fact that the young unmarried women to-day are going to pay, and pay for the rest of their lives, in order that young women who killed one husband can draw 10s. a week out of the general fund. I think that is unjust and a serious blemish on the Bill, and I hope the Bill before we finish will alter this portion of it.
The subject of widows' pensions has at last become a practical political issue, but not in the way or through the means we anticipated. This is my fourth Parliament, and during the life of each of those Parliaments I have listened to interesting discussions on this very important issue. We on these benches, however, have always emphasised the desirability of establishing a scheme, not merely of widows' pensions, but of widowed mothers' pensions—[An HON. MEMBER: "YOU never did it, though"!]—and in all the Motions and Resolutions we have submitted to the House on this subject we have laid special emphasis on that point. I have witnessed a great change in the attitude of Members in this House on the subject. It seem6 strange to-day, in 1925, that practically every Member of this House is agreed that there ought to be established in law the title of a widow to a pension in her own right. It is only just a few years ago I saw trooping into the Lobbies against a Motion favouring this principle I moved, a number of Conservative members of Parliament to defeat it, and now we have a Conservative Government bringing in a Widows' Pension Bill. We shall deal with that political somersault in due course.
There are some Clauses in this Bill with which I want to deal; and, if I may, I should like to put some questions to the Parliamentary Secretary. I fail to understand the purpose and meaning of this Measure. The Minister of Health, for instance, told us very definitely this afternoon—couched in very beautiful English language, as he is capable of doing— that the provisions of this Measure would ultimately, without any doubt, relieve the funds of Poor Law Guardians. If that is the object of this Measure, then I feel sure that no credit will ensue to the Government. To produce a Bill to relieve the rates on the plea that it will succour the widow and her children is abominable.
I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary why the age of 14 years is included in this Measure in regard to the children? We are told in one of the Clauses that the allowance will terminate in respect of the child when it reaches the age of 14 or 14½. I receive from time to time, as doubtless do other Members of Parliament, notices and papers from the Income Tax Commissioners. When we fill up those papers we are allowed an abatement in respect of children so long as they continue their education. When we come to consider this Bill later I trust the Government will take heed of this point, and amend the Measure by way of a provision so that the allowance paid shall continue, not up to 14½, but so long as the child is in an educational institution.
Then there is a difference as between the amounts payable in respect of orphans and the children of a. widowed mother. Where a widowed mother is convicted of an offence in a Court and her children are taken away from her, those children are not to be regarded as they ought to be as orphans under the Bill. Let me give an example to impress upon the hon. Gentleman the necessity of regarding as an orphan the child whose mother has been convicted of an offence, and who is deemed to be incapable of looking after her child. An orphan is in charge of a guardian, and is paid 7s. 6d. a week in respect of it. In the case of the neglected child, however, the very same guardian may get only 5s. or it may be 3s. I trust that is a flaw in the Measure which will be noted by Government.
If this Bill aims at anything real, and if Parliament intends to deal with the problem of the widow, the greatest care should be taken in respect of the widow's children. The welfare of the child is, after all, the thing that matters in a Bill of this kind. I do not desire to dwell upon that except to say that in one Clause in the Bill it is stipulated that where the mother is convicted of an offence or is incapable, the children may be taken from her and handed over to the care of the local authority. I would respectfully suggest that in a case of that kind the children should become not the ward of the local authority but of the local educational authority. I am one of those who believe that all children of school age should be regarded as falling to be dealt with by educational bodies, and children neglected by a widowed mother should become the charge of the local educational authority.
This Bill proposes also to amend the Old Age Pensions Act in very important respects. It reduces the age at which old age pensions shall become payable. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that while he is doing that, while he is amending substantially other Acts of Parliament and reducing the age for the purpose of the receipt of the 10s. old age pension, he might take into account that section of the community, the blind people, who ought to secure some benefit from any change in the provision of the Old Age Pensions Act. A blind person, if I remember rightly, is now entitled to an old age pension at 50 years of age solely because he is blind. If it is right to reduce the age of eligibility of the old age pensioner, of the man who may be in good health, from 70 to 65, as this Bill proposes to do, then I think there is a case made out for reducing the age of eligibility for the same pension in respect of the blind. I make that suggestion in the hope that it will receive generous consideration from the Government.
Those of us who are administering the National Health Insurance scheme are naturally very interested in this Measure. The Bill is linked up with the scheme of health insurance. I fail to understand, however, how it comes about that this scheme is connected in any way with health insurance. We have had a maze of figures given us from the actuaries, to whom I must pay my tribute. If I understand the position rightly, the Government consider that the time will arrive, though it is not stated how long it will take, to wipe out the deficiency on the Unemployment Insurance Fund. It does seem to me strange that if the Government hopes to wipe out in a few years that deficiency why the present unemployment contributions should not continue to be payable, and a portion of those contributions transferred towards the payment of this new benefit. The transfer of the moneys would be quite as simple from the Un- employment Insurance Fund as it would be from the National Health Insurance Fund.
There is another point to which I want to call attention. No Government has yet been able to secure for insured persons under the National Health Insurance scheme all the benefits for which they have been paying, because bankrupt employers have not stamped the insurance cards. I would ask the Government on this occasion to see to it that insured persons who have paid contributions under this Measure, plus the National Health Insurance Act, shall not be deprived of their widow's pension merely because a negligent employer has failed in his duty. That is to say, where the deduction has been properly made from the wages of the insured person, he ought to be entitled in law to full benefits, irrespective of the fact that the employer has not carried out his part of the contract.
The Minister, I notice, is very anxious to bring into this scheme all possible cases, including insured persons who have once upon a time been within the National Health Insurance Scheme. I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary how the approved society or the insured person is going to prove the man's title to join this scheme if he entered National Health Insurance in 1911 and continued his membership, say, for two or three years only? That is a point of administration which I feel sure will be very difficult of accomplishment.
I should like to ask another question more important than any other. If I am not mistaken, a person insured through an approved society at present is legally entitled to additional benefits in connection with the health scheme. He may be entitled to draw those benefits irrespective of the fact that sickness, disablement, and maternity benefit may have stopped at 65 years of age. I will put the question in a concrete form. Will this Bill admit of an insured person, who has created reserves in respect of his membership of an approved society, to draw additional benefits in cash or kind between the ages of 65 and 70? I understand that under this Measure he is entitled to medical benefit from 65 years of age to the end of his days. I feel sure, too, that under the present law—and so far as I can see there is nothing in this Bill to cancel that law— he is entitled to additional benefits between the ages of 65 and 70. I think it would be grossly unfair if a man who had paid contribution under the National Health Insurance scheme from 16 years of age till he was 65, should at 65 years of age, when he requires them most, be deprived of all those additional benefits merely because he is included under this Bill.
Approved societies will be very anxious to know what proportion of the £500,000 will fall to them for administration purposes. It will be said, ass was the case with the National Health Insurance scheme, that approved societies will have very little extra work to do. But those who have been engaged in the administration of that scheme know full well that a new task is not so easy as it seems. When the administrators of an approved society are asked to provide a certificate showing that an insured person has reached the age of 65, it will be rather a difficult task in many cases. As the hon. Gentleman himself knows, some of these people never surrender their cards in time for the present benefits due to them.
I would like to put another question. Most of my remarks, I am afraid, are made up of questions. The State is going to call for contributions, if I remember rightly, of £12,000,000 a year from employers and £12,000,000 from the workers, and will contribute itself about £5,500,000 a year. That makes an annual contribution of nearly £30,000,000. The State will, I understand, have full control over this money and the investments. At the moment, one half the sums available under the National Health Insurance scheme are allowed to be invested by the approved societies. I am wondering whether the Treasury and the Minister of Health feel satisfied that they will have absolutely in their own hands the immense power of controlling all these new funds collected from employers and employed. I suggest that they might consider the advisability of setting up a joint council of these two sections of the community to advise on such big issues. The Minister of Health is already receiving advice from another body on Health Insurance questions.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made a suggestion which I hope the Minister of Health will not accept. He argued that this work should be done by approved societies. I happen to be the secretary of an approved society, and as such I venture to ask the Minister not to take no heed of that suggestion. I will state one or two reasons why. If these contributions go into the coffers of approved societies, and approved societies are called upon to administer the benefit, this is what will happen. The societies will still be segregated, as they are now, and the calls made upon societies covering, say, miners, railway men or shop assistants will not be equal. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that some approved societies have not a penny piece to spare to pay for any additional benefits, whilst others are well placed; and this distinction between them is growing to such an extent that some day, I feel sure, Parliament will be called upon to deal with the serious differentiation in benefits as between one society and another. For that reason I ask the Minister of Health to take no heed of the suggestion that he should hand this work over to approved societies.
I want a truly national scheme, with a national income, a national fund and a national service, with the money passing to and from one pool, so that there shall be no differentiation at all between the benefits conferred on any section of the community. The present segregation of approved societies leads me to believe that ultimately, if this task were handed over to them, we should get a differentiation of these new benefits too.
As regards the scheme as a whole, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Meller), who is an authority on insurance, made a statement a few minutes ago with which I do not agree, that people as a rule dislike something for nothing. As a matter of fact, the system of society under which we are living lends itself to the extraordinary result that those who work hardest get the least return, and the people who do the least get the most. In fact, so far does this principle go that people who do nothing at all very often become millionaires. My final word on the scheme is this. The scheme is a very mean one. It is mean in comparison with what has been done in other countries, and mean in comparison with what has been done in our Colonies. It would afford a very useful comparison if the right hon. Gentleman were to inquire from the Home Office how much it costs to keep a boy in a reformatory school, what is the cost per head of those in a Borstal institution, and how much it costs to keep a man in detention in a police cell or a convict prison He will find out that it costs the State about twice as much to keep a convict as it is proposed to give under this scheme to a widow with three children.
In my view this is a scheme deliberately designed to throw, ultimately, upon the poor people of this country the responsitained in this Bill as to whether pensions of all kinds. Ultimately, this scheme means that instead of people securing their old age pensions direct from Income Tax payers, through the Treasury, when they reach the age of 70 years, as is now the case, they will be called upon to pay for their own old age pensions, and for that reason we protest against the provisions of this Bill. For my part, I shall be prepared to go into the division lobby against this scheme as it now stands.
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down said he sat in four successive Parliaments in which he had listened to discussions upon this proposal. I think it must be a little galling to him now to find a Bill of this kind brought forward by the present Government at a time when the hon. Member finds himself sitting on the wrong side of the Table. I will not follow the hon. Member in the various ingenious proposals which he has put forward, because many of them are Committee points. Quite a number of suggestions and adjustments which have been put forward are more appropriate to the Committee stage, and if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is in as seductive a mood in Committee as he was this afternoon, it will require all the Ministers ingenuity to resist his proposals.
I cannot help feeling, however, that the scope for debate on the Second Reading is a very narrow one. The main attack has been launched from two quarters. One argument put forward maintains that a non-contributory scheme is preferable to a contributory scheme and the other argument is that a contributory scheme will place a great burden on industry. It is abundantly manifest that a certain section of the Opposition welcome this opportunity for appealing to the meaner instincts of the electors. Here is another opportunity for the Labour party to pass a pious Resolution which will not cost the party one farthing while they are in opposition beyond the expenditure leaflets such as those which the Minister placed on the Table this afternoon inquiring whether Labour was fit to rule.
10.0 P.M.
I think the memories of hon. Members opposite are rather short, and I would like to remind them that the issue contained in this Bill as to whether pensions should be on a contributory or a non-contributory basis has already been before the electors. Speaking from my own personal experience I may say that I was confronted with it at every turn at the last Election, and without any equivocation, I said that the Government scheme would be on a contributory basis, and not only that but I further warned my audience that any candidate who suggested that the scheme would be on a non-contributory basis was either very foolish or very unscrupulous. I may say that the result of the warnings I gave went far beyond my expectations. Now that we have obtained this verdict from the country we find the Labour party threatening to produce this obsolete weapon from their armory, but in my view it will not prove any more effective at the next Election than it did at the last Election. Those who advocate a non-contributory scheme surely must have been convinced by two important pronouncements which have been made, one by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the other insisted upon by the Minister of Health to-day, that such a scheme was utterly futile. The Chancellor of the Exchequer informed us that his Actuaries had made the rather unpleasant discovery that in 30 years' time the cost of a non-contributory scheme would be exactly double what it is now. The Minister of Health this afternoon said the capital liability of the new scheme to the State was going to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of £750,000,000. These two facts taken conjointly, and added to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said, should surely convince anyone that a scheme of non-contributory pensions is right outside the range of possibility. I was reading the other day an account of the life of the great statesman who was the maker of modern Italy, Cavour, who was responsible for this aphorism:
I can accurately anticipate what is going to be said in the constituencies with regard to this scheme by hon. Members opposite with a view to securing an electioneering advantage. We shall hear something about this demoralising pension of 10s. a week for widows. I use that word advisedly, because it was used by the Leader of the opposition. Why it should be more demoralising for a widow to draw a pension of 10s. a week to which she has contributed than to draw a pension of 10s. a week to which she has not contributed, I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain. I am sure we shall hear from hon. Members opposite very little about the generosity of the State in this scheme, but when it is closely examined it will be found that the State is making an extremely generous contribution. Of course, in this electioneering campaign by hon. Members opposite, no reference will be made to the fact that during the next 10 years the State will have contributed £40,000,000 towards this scheme, and no reference will be made to the fact that the State contribution makes it possible to operate the scheme by the 4th of January next year. No reference will be made to the fact that by the State contribution provision is made for widows and orphans of those who die before the inception of the scheme. Owing to the State contribution, as I read it in the paper, I gather that 191,000 widows and 360,000 orphans will profit thereby, no mention will be made of the removal of the test as to means. Anyone who says that this is a. parsimonious scheme cannot have studied it with that meticulous care which it deserves.
I am sure it will be contended, entirely for electioneering purposes, that a non-contributory scheme is the best for the country, but I am glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the present Government do not view their trust in that way. Certainly, it is to the credit of successive Chancellors of the Exchequer on our side that they have been rather guided by what makes for the permanence of our financial stability than for temporary party advantage. Now may I address myself to the other line of attack—the question of the scheme being a great burden upon industry? Surely, it is rather inconsistent for right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to say that this is going to be a great burden on industry, and at the same time advocate a non-contributory scheme. Apart from that consideration, is it not rather a novel and unexpected criticism to come from the benches opposite that this is going to place a burden upon industry? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) complained quite bitterly that this scheme was going to be a burden upon industry, but I think this is the first time I have ever heard a Labour Member object to any scheme of social service on the ground that it was going to place a burden upon industry. The right hon. Gentleman complained that we had borrowed his thunder, but surely he has repaid the compliment by using this argument. I have heard denunciations on this side against extravagance in social reform, but, surely, it is novel that they should come from the Labour Benches.
I suppose that, if he were here, the right hon. Gentleman would explain that what he meant to convey to the House was that it placed a burden upon the working man. I suppose his argument is that you can indefinitely place burdens upon the broad shoulders of the employer without doing any harm to the working man—a doctrine which we should expect from any party which is obsessed by the economic teachings of Marx and Mosley. We on this side, however, say that the two things are synonymous—that, if you place a burden upon the employer, it equally imposes a burden upon the working man. Again, we shall get the rejoinder from the other side that the whole capitalist system stands condemned; but by what right is it claimed that under a Socialist system, under nationalisation, a non-contributory scheme would be any less embarrassing to industry? Hon. Members opposite have no right whatever to advance that argument; there is no precedent for it in all history. I am not going to take a mean advantage by instancing the complete failure of the Russian system, because that is not a system at all, it is chaos; and in asking us to follow any such scheme they are asking us to pin our faith to something we want not of. Like the pagans on the Areopagus, they have built an altar to an unknown god, and we, after the manner of St. Paul, deplore such waste of devotion.
I contend that under no system whatever can such a burden be placed upon industry as by a non-contributory scheme. Whether the present scheme imposes too heavy a burden upon industry depends, I maintain, upon industry itself. If we can get rid of industrial strife, if we can advance along the path the Prime Minister has indicated, I believe that industry will be able to bear this increased burden. Let me conclude by felicitating the Government upon initiating this scheme, which I am certain is going to work this country lasting good. We on this side yield to none in our solicitude for the fatherless children and widows, and for the desolate and the oppressed. We have to sit down under a great many gibes and sneers from hon. Members opposite, from those who themselves are hypersensitive when it comes to any criticism of their own actions; but we have developed, from constant resistance, rather tough hides, though, if it be any satisfaction to hon. Members opposite, I do not mind saying that they sometimes do get through a gap in the armour of our indifference, and more particularly when they accuse us of having less generous instincts than themselves in these great ideals of social service. Let me assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Health that they have behind them many who, although they may not have had the advantages of hon. Members opposite in regard to experience incidental to the lives of working men, are nevertheless equally capable of taking a wide view of what is to the advantage of the community, and who, perhaps I might be allowed to say, have an even better chance of taking a wide view, for I often think that the view of hon. Members opposite is a very narrow one. Only a few weeks ago I listened to an hon. Gentleman opposite discussing the question of the attitude of British residents in the East End of London towards alien immigration, and, if I had not known that he lived in Shore-ditch, his words would have convinced me that he had never been within a hundred miles of that quarter. That is a digression, but I only instance it because I believe it is not only hon. Members opposite who have experience of what is best for the community at large. We shall support through thick and thin, in face of all factious and, I might almost say, unprincipled opposition, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Health in this scheme. There are many hon. Members on these benches who have gone out to minister to their fellow-men, who have studied their needs, and who are determined to set their wrongs right, and we shall support this splendid effort to make for future generations a fairer and a nobler heritage of the England that we love.
I think it ought to be made clear that the opposition that has come to the Bill from this side of the House is not by any means or in any sense a factious opposition. I, for one, representing, as I do, in this House a great iron and steel constituency, where the age of death is, unfortunately, low as compared with many other constituencies, know what a desperate need there is for this Measure of social reform, and I must confess that the sneers that have been thrown so frequently from the other side that the Labour Party is objecting to this Bill because it did not bring it in itself are, coming from hon. Gentlemen who know the actual facts of the case, a little ungenerous, to say the least of them. It is very well known to every Member present that the Labour party, taking office in February and having to bring in a Budget in April, could not in any circumstances, however great their desire, have brought in a complicated Measure like this after some four or five weeks' deliberation. Everyone knows that the Labour party themselves had to take over what was very largely the Budget arranged by their predecessors, with just consequential alterations. Hon. Members on the other side know that perfectly well, and it is, therefore, to say the least of it. a little ungenerous that there should be these continuous sneers that the Labour party did not bring in this widows' pensions Measure. But apart from that, had this been a Bill that the Labour Government could have supported, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Health would have had no warmer supporters than there are on this side. I want to make it clear that our opposition to a contributory scheme is a very fundamental one. It is not a private little discussion of the predilections of two Chancellors of the Exchequer, or even of two sides of this House. Hon. Members opposite will find that this opposition to a contributory scheme is very widespread among those who certainly do not count themselves as being in the Labour ranks.
For example, I am Chairman of the Standing Joint Committee of the Women's Industrial Organisation. Affiliated to that are nearly 3,000,000 organised women, including co-operative, trade union and political associations. The first of these categories are by no means all Labour voters. Of course, they will be if the Conservative party goes on as it is doing at present. But still the extraordinary thing is that these women have expressed themselves unanimously against a contributory system, and have passed a very large number of resolutions to that effect. Why is it? Let us get rid of this cant about women getting something for nothing. An hon. Member drew a pathetic picture of the cricket pitch that had been provided by the rich man and said how much more the youngsters enjoyed themselves on the bumpy pitch provided by themselves. That had absolutely nothing to do with the case. A more correct analogy would be that, say, of a turnpike road. There is a growing sense among the community that certain services must be a general charge and that it would be fairer if they were contributed out of the general fund of taxation. Of course, the real contributory principle that ought to be behind a scheme of this kind is that the supersecure, the people who have already got far more money than they know what to do with, ought to be providing the money for these pensions. After all, all economists, even Conservative economists, are agreed that what we are suffering from to-day is not that we have too little capital but that what is wanted is a distribution of purchasing power. So it would not be unfair even if the rich were made to contribute very heavily towards the widows' pension scheme. But if not the sacrifice should be borne by all.
The curious thing is that in the whole course of this discussion no one has asked what this money is being paid for. We have had, for example, the statement of the Minister of Health, what might be described as an argumentum ad hominem apparently on the principle that before you give any money to women you must convince the men that it is really being given to them. But this money is being paid to the widows for a very definite service. That is, so that she can bring up her children adequately for the State. The difference between the man's and the woman's wage is very often excused on the ground that, through the man, the woman is being paid, and preparations are being made for bringing up the next generation. This scheme, therefore, when the man's wage ceases, is to pay for that service to the State, because surely we are all agreed, whatever side of the House we are on, that the State's real wealth is in its children, and that no matter how many battleships you have or how wonderful your public buildings, unless the children of the State are growing up healthy and happy for future generations, that State is a decaying State. I wish hon. Members would get it into their heads that a non-contributory scheme would not be a dispensing of charity, but a very definite payment for services that the widow has rendered to the State, and that it should enable the woman to bring up the children properly. It is only because woman's work has been so badly paid, or so very largely underpaid or unpaid, that this proposition seems to be a novel idea to some hon. Members.
Assuming a pension to be a fundamental need, surely the payment should be adequate. The whole idea of everyone in connection with any scheme of widows' pensions, even the Gentleman whom the Minister of Health described as the real author of it, is that the basis should be that the mother should be taken out of the labour market and should bring up her children at home. Under this scheme pensions are given to women who have no children—young women who have no need to be kept out of the labour market. On the other hand, it gives pensions that are utterly inadequate to enable the widow with children to perform an essential service. I wish hon. Members could realise, or try to imagine, what it will mean for a woman to get 18s. a week on which to bring up two children and to maintain herself. We talk as if that, in a way, is an adequate sum, or that the women could manage on it. Is it a conceivably possible proposition?
Is it possible to bring up two children, with the present prices of things, and to maintain a grown-up woman on 18s. a week? If a woman happens to be very cautious, she will be paying 10s. a week for rent, and she will be a very fortunate woman in an industrial centre to get a house for anything like that rent. Many of these people are paying much more than that, even for a couple of rooms. If the woman has a young baby, the mere provision of milk for that child, if it is to be brought up properly, will cost at least 3s. a week. That will provide merely for raw milk, and not for tubercular tested milk. That will leave only 5s. a week for the woman and her other child for food, making no provision whatever for clothes or fuel or any of the other necessities of life. Obviously, this sum for a widow and two children is an utterly impossible proposition.
The Minister of Health says that this was not intended to be a complete maintenance scheme, and that we have to look to thrift on the part of the parents before this pension becomes necessary. The right hon. Gentleman has read a very large number of books dealing with social questions, and I want to ask him, judging from his own public speeches, whether it is not a fact that all social writers are agreed that for a young family in a working-class home thrift is an utter impossibility, and that where the children are young it is literally impossible to save. Even the wages of a skilled workman to-day would not provide for saving, if the children are to be at all adequately provided for. Everybody agrees that thrift in a working-class home, if it can come at all, can only come when the children are growing up, and have begun to earn something. Therefore it is impossible to suggest that these people should provide by thrift for the young widow left with two, three, or four little children. Of course, she will have to go to the guardians, the very thing that this scheme was to prevent, and she will be told by the guardians, who already are harassed to make the rates go round, "You must make the Government pension do."
That is on the general question of contributory scheme, but I wish now to touch briefly on one or two other matters of great importance. I wish that, instead of giving pensions to the young widow, the question of the woman with an incapacitated husband had been taken into consideration. I am sure that the Minister of Health realises the real tragedy in a home where the father is struck down by a terrible disease or an accident for which he gets no compensation, and the mother has to earn to keep the family going and is nursing and supporting the husband as well. The posi- tion of a woman of that kind is much worse than that of the widow—I mean from the financial point of view. Then I cannot understand why the present Minister of Health should say that the pension should cease in respect of a child 14 years of age, instead of 16, in view of the very definite attitude which his party took up when my right hon. Friend who was Minister of Labour last year, introduced the scheme to bring boys and girls between 14 and 16 years old under the Insurance Act. The Conservatives then held up their hands in holy horror, and said that by doing that the then Minister of Labour was preventing the school age being raised to 16. Surely the right hon. Gentleman should have borne in mind to-night the speeches which his friends made then, and I ask him whether it is not too late to make the age 16 instead of 14, following the principles, which is adopted with respect to Income Tax, of making an allowance for a child while it is under full-time educational instruction.
Then there is a perfectly terrible provision. In the case in which the widow has been proved incapable of looking after her children, there is provision for taking the children away from her and, quite rightly, putting them under proper guardianship, so that they will be looked after properly, but there is also provision that where a woman is convicted in a Court of Law the Minister may take the pension from her. She may have a pension taken for what may well be a crime in the eyes of the law but may have no connection whatever with the woman's ability to bring up her child. To fine her such an enormous sum as this will in actual practice involve a penalty of tremendous severity, and I hope that the Minister will see his way to remove that provision. With regard to approved societies, I regard it as a somewhat backward step that the employés of private companies should be used to carry out public duties of this character.
Turning to a very real fault in the scheme, we all feel that it will operate very harshly in the case of single women in industries. There are something like from 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 women who, owing to the War and other causes, will not normally, marry. Most of these women are going to be employed in industry all the days of their lives, and they will be paying 2d. a week for a benefit which they cannot possibly get. All that they will get therefore, will be a reduction of the age at which the old age pension is payable from 70 to 65. I want the Minister to look at the position of the woman who starts paying when she is 16. She pays for 30 years or 35 years, until she is 45 or 50. During that time she may have had working alongside of her a widow who has been receiving 10s. a week although she has no children to bring up. That woman has paid also into the Unemployment Insurance Fund. She comes out of work, she exhausts her unemployment benefit. She is then driven about, as so many of the untrained and unskilled are, having all their lives been engaged in the blind alley occupations for woman's labour that modern industry provides. At that time, after weeks and months of this, she goes to the Employment Exchange, and she is told that there is no reasonable prospect of her getting further employment. Therefore, under the Insurance (No. 2) Act she is excluded from further insurance benefit.
I ask the Minister to take into consideration the case of that woman. Her case is just as hard as that of the childless widow. It is even more hard than that of the widow who has had children, because by the time the widow is 50 or so the children will have grown up, and there will be others to help the widowed mother. But the woman who has paid into this scheme for years and years, with no one to depend on or to look to for a penny, is the woman who is being told that there is no reasonable prospect of her getting employment, and, therefore, she is turned off the Insurance Fund. She is just as tragic a figure as the widow. I ask the Minister whether it is not possible to provide for the woman who has paid in during all these years, an alternative pension at the time when she is stated to have no reasonable prospect of further employment under the machinery that is already in existence.
It is a great pity that this scheme has been made into a rather doubtful piece of class legislation. A definite class will have to pay for it, the class that is already contributing far more than its share in indirect taxation, and far more than its share in the work for the world and for the general wealth of this country. From this class is drawn the wealth that enables us to carry on all our social services. I feel that in the circumstances it should not have been an utterly inadequate pension at a very high rate of contribution, relieving the wealthy of burdens which they are far more able to bear than are those on whom the burden is placed, but that, had the Minister of Health taken a bold step and brought forward a non-contributory scheme, which would have supplied to those who really needed it—the mother and her young children—the means for a happy home apart from the labour market, I can assure him that, quite apart from party considerations and election cries, he would have had his warmest friends and supporters on this side. I only regret that such an opportunity has been lost.
Having listened to the whole of the Debate, I have come to the conclusion that there are only two arguments which have been brought forward against the Bill. There is the argument that it gives too much, and there is the argument that it gives too little. Some are for extending it, and others are for restricting it. Those are the arguments always brought forward against every measure of social reform ever submitted to this House. It is interesting, when you are attacked on two flanks in that way, to see the inevitable happen— that the two attacking forces land their shells on one another's heads. I think it was only the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), who had the intellectual ingenuity to combine the two attacks in one speech, but in so far as hon. Members were diverted from those two lines of attack they have had to fall back upon generalities, upon the defence of Socialism or attacks upon the capitalistic system, or else upon small Committee points which are not really damaging attacks on the Bill. I have no objection, how-ever, to the introduction of such points, and if I have time I hope to introduce one myself. The hon. Member who has just sat down knows a great deal and attributes to her opponents the same knowledge. It came as news to me that the Budget introduced by the late Government was really prepared by their predecessors. I am personally delighted to hear it. I had always looked upon it as the best Measure introduced by the Labour party. Now we know to whom the credit is due.
As the hon. Member knows so much, I wonder whether she knows and would be prepared to give us the answer to a very simple, straightforward question which was put to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston by the Minister of Health, as to whether the scheme of widows' pensions, which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had in his pocket when he went to the country, was on a contributory basis or not. To that question we have had the right hon. Gentleman's reply that no such scheme was ever submitted to the Cabinet, but can we believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having a scheme of that sort all worked out and ready to submit in the next Session, did not consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, the Minister most nearly concerned with the Clauses of this Bill, and did not submit to him the text of those proposals? In the event of a refusal to give any answer to this question, I am afraid hon. Members on this side of the House will be driven to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) intended to produce a scheme on similar lines to this scheme and of an equally fiendish complexion.
I have heard a great deal advanced in favour of Socialism by hon. Members in this House, and still more by less responsible people in this country, but I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston surpassed all claims that have yet been put forward when he said: "Look at the condition of things to-day. This is the result of the capitalist system; you have to come and ask for pensions for widows." Socialism may be going to abolish a great deal when it comes to be put into force, but how is it going to abolish widows? There are, apparently, only two ways. One is the abolition of marriage, which I am sure no hon. Gentleman opposite would advocate, and the other is the revival of a custom, which is rapidly falling into disuse in India, the custom of suttee. I cannot believe that hon. Gentlemen opposite would really advocate the burning of widows on funeral pyres. Apart from that, widows are always going to be with us unless we should invent some scheme for the simultaneous destruction of spouses. The hon. Member for West Houghton (Mr. Rhys Davies) in his speech seemed to indicate that when Socialism was introduced it was going to abolish crime. He referred bitterly to the amount expended on people in prison. As far as I can see that is always likely to be part of our annual expenditure.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston introduced the most serious criticism to the Bill in his reference—which was alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) —to the state of the coal trade in the county of Durham. He informed us that that trade, at the present moment and in the last year, was able to produce a profit of only £11,000, but that under this scheme it would be subject to a tax of £110,000. In the first place, I really question whether the right hon. Gentleman's figures can be quite correct, and I am also in a position to say that only this evening I have received information that there is new hope for the coal trade in Durham because Durham coal is now being sold more cheaply at Breslau in Germany than coal from Silesia. If it is not true, it does not really alter the force of my argument, which is that if that trade is in this sickly condition which the right hon. Gentleman makes out, if it is really struggling along on such a broken wing and is unable to support this new taxation, then, though I am a Protectionist myself, and hon. Members opposite are Free Traders, I say that an industry in that condition is one that we cannot afford to protect. It is a dying industry, and, as such, it cannot demand protection from this country.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, in the helpful, moderate, statesmanlike speech which we all enjoyed, put forward one practical suggestion which seemed to me to contain a flaw in it. He was worried about the case of the hale old man of 65, who, he said, deserved a pension very much less than an invalid of 40. That is perfectly true, but how are you going to decide on his health at the age of 65? It means reimposing all that inquisition into the private affairs and private life of citizens which is so much deplored and attacked by hon. Members opposite. We have always heard it stated that such methods meant putting a penalty upon thrift, but the right hon. Gentleman proposes to put a penalty on health, which is surely a still more disastrous suggestion. We were told that under the existing scheme workers were encouraged to squander their savings rather than to keep them, because they knew that by saving them they would lose their benefits. I think it would be still worse if old gentlemen of 60 were taught to undermine their constitutions in order that they might not be deprived of their benefits at 65, which would be reaped by their more dyspeptic neighbours.
The speech of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) was one of the kind to which I referred when I said that hon. Members opposite have had to fall back upon generalities in order to attack this scheme. We know well enough in this House that the hon. Member does not approve of armaments, and that he has no inordinate affection for Royalty. We know that he thinks Socialism is a better system than Capitalism, but when he is driven to remind us of all these facts when criticising a Bill which he has in his hands, with many Clauses, all of which are or should be open to criticism, we are driven to the conclusion that there cannot be very much wrong with the Bill itself. He said that it would be a lasting disgrace to this Government to leave these unfortunate widows with only 10s. a week. How long will the disgrace last on the Government before it, which left them with nothing at all?
As I said, the two main lines of criticism really are that the scheme gives either too little or too much, and to those who say that it gives too little, I would reply, in the first place, that it has never been advanced by those who defend the Bill that it gives the widow sufficient to live on. We are only offering her what we think at present we can afford. We are only giving her something which will help, a contribution to her weekly budget, and it is absurd to say that that is a negligible contribution. It is something, and it is all that we can afford to give at present. To those who say that the system should be non-contributory, there is a simple answer. Somebody has got to pay, and in the long run every tax is really a tax on industry, whether it be a direct tax on industry or an indirect tax on industry. I ask hon. Members opposite whether they really think these great employers of industry, for whom they have shown such unwonted sympathy this evening, would be pleased if we abolished the 4d. contribution, and, instead, put another 6d. on the Income Tax? On the contrary, they would say this was a more severe tax on industry than the tax proposed in the terms of this Bill.
To those who say this is not the moment, to those who say we are giving too much, and more than we can afford, and that we should wait, I would reply that, as we all know, in the opinion of a great many people of this country, the only suitable day for social reform is the Greek Kalends. I am not one of the older Members of this House, but I do not expect to live to see the day when the great leaders of industry will come down to this House, or will send their representatives down, to say things are so prosperous, industry is so healthy, trade is booming, the future is so assured, the burden of taxation is so comparatively light, that they think the moment is come when some fresh burden should be thrown upon them. Even in successful years, even in the year 1920, supposing a Measure of this nature had been brought forward, we know the criticism we should have had from the same quarter. They would say, "Here we have an artificial boom which cannot last. The slump is bound to come. It is the worst possible moment for indulging in wild-cat schemes of social legislation." They would certainly have said it, and always will say it.
Really, we can hope to have no more suitable occasion than now. I do not wish to take too optimistic a view of the situation, or paint it in too rosy colours. Still, we have been through bad times, and, although the good time is continually postponed, according to the average of human fortune, it is bound to come. We have a great advantage, although, perhaps, hon. Members opposite may not agree with it, in having a Government in power who can continue their policy for some years to come. That alone is an advantage. Even hon. Members opposite must admit that freedom from the threat of a General Election is an advantage. I say it is a most suitable moment in which a Measure of this sort could be brought forward.
If I may, shortly, raise a small point which I wish to raise, it is a plea on behalf of some people who have been, I think, strangely overlooked under the Clauses of this Bill. I refer to existing widows with children all over the age of 14. Of course, these schemes must always leave some on the wrong side of the line, but the category of which I wish to speak is a very small one. It is one which must necessarily diminish and disappear within a few years, and it is, I think, one which everyone will agree is most deserving. I do not usually deal with statistics, and I always deplore their introduction in speeches toy hon. Members, but I did hope to arm myself with figures as to the number of women in this category, and the expense involved to the State by including them in this Bill. I addressed a question to the Ministry of Health. The Ministry was quite unable to furnish an answer to what, I thought, was an easy and a simple question.
I believe myself the number of these widows cannot be a large one, and it is a category that must gradually disappear in the melancholy course of nature. They are a well-deserving class, these widows, who by denying themselves every luxury and pleasure, without any help from anybody, have at last brought up their families until they see the youngest member approach an age when he becomes a potential wage earner. Those are the women whose labour, valour, and heroism of that kind, should, if such things could be properly weighed and rewarded, receive an annual Victoria Cross. Such a woman must have read of the scheme for widows' pensions for all with a thrill of hope and pang of relief. She examines the Bill and who does she find? That the widow next door, who has been a widow, perhaps, for a year, with one child, gets 10s. a week. The girl widow with no incumbrances, with all her strength and her life before her, is to get 10s. a week, but for her who has laboured and fought and struggled there is nothing at all, not a penny. She is told that her children can now earn wages. I think it is a shame to make a woman of that sort a pensioner on her own children. She is going to be a millstone round their neck. Many women are too proud to accept that position.
I had a letter to-day describing the sort of struggle I have been trying to describe. The writer says at the end of it:
Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.—[ Sir Laming Worthington-Evans. ]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
Protection of Birds Bill
Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
I would ask, seeing that this Bill has unanimously passed through this House, has been up to another place, and come back with a few small Amendments, that the House, which has given me such encouraging support at every stage, may now pass the Bill altogether.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Malta
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Colonel Gibbs. ]
I rise to ask for the sympathy of the House in dealing with a question on which the views of practical British Imperialists run side by side with the just aspirations for safeguarding the recognition of the Parliamentary representation of trade unions. On the other side of the question we have bureaucratic reluctance to face the difficulties of the situation, nevertheless the replies of my right hon. Friend opposite show that he was to-day more disposed to call for reports from the point of view which I am submitting to the judgment of the House. What I am asking for is an inquiry. Recently there has been an inquiry respecting the affairs of an entirely self-governing Dominion, Newfoundland, an inquiry based on dissatisfaction arising from allegations as to misfeasance and corruption and want of proper administration on the part of responsible Imperial officers of that Dominion. Malta is not quite the same as Newfoundland, a self-governing Dominion, because my right hon. Friend opposite still retains a very considerable measure of responsibility with regard to the administration of Malta. It is only with reference to the responsibility resting in him, through Imperial officers entirely under his control, that I venture to bring any question before this House. I would be the last to ask this House for its attention to matters of local Maltese politics, which are rightly, properly and entirely transferred to the Parliaments of the self-governing portions of the Empire.
To come to the facts of the case before ariticising on the responsibility of individual administrators: under the Constitution of Malta, trade unions have as such official representation in the Upper House, which has also power to reject money Bills in toto. For nearly a year this representation of the trade union council in the Upper House of Malta has been entirely eliminated by administrative action. The two seats have not been filled, and in this way a majority has been created, when upon a Division majorities have been from one to two. At the same time, in the Lower House such important matters as the salaries of Ministers have depended upon the casting vote of the Chairman. A pro-Italian Government, in fact, has been carried on for months by a virtual suspension of the Constitution and with a rigging of majorities. Speaking from long experience, having myself sat in five Parliaments in the West Indies, three in Australia, and one in this Mother of Parliaments, as well as serving in the Malta Legislative Assembly, I say that under responsible Government it is the duty of the Governor never to allow, or to be a party to, the suspension of the Constitution. Under a self-governing Constitution, the Governor must generally accept the advice of his Ministers, but if they advise him to break the law, he can always refuse to take their advice and either seek other Ministers or compel a Minister to take the verdict of the electors. I hold that it is a breach of constitutional and democratic principles for a Governor to allow for so long a Constitution to he suspended by expedients for not filling up two seats in a House of 16 in which two forms a very considerable factor on a Division. I am sure that this House will be surprised to hear that such a thing is possible under the British flag. The reason is that the line of cleavage of political thought in Malta politically is between "English culture" and "Italian culture." The representatives of the Trade Unions Council represent dockyard employés in Malta, and they want English culture and opportunities to earn better wages. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will allow me again to offer a tribute of admiration for him for having altered the constitution of Malta, and provided that trade unions are to have a permanent and ex-officio representation in the Upper House in Malta. What is then the psychological explanation for this suspension of the Constitution? Up to the present the law has been worked as it was drafted, and we have had the Constitution in force with representatives of the trade unions elected under it as it now stands. Such representatives are not there to make a majority for the pro-Italian party and for the very party that declares that they are going to alter the law.
My right hon. Friend has stated that there is a Bill before the Malta Parliament about to be read a Third time to rectify this position, but that is not so, that Bill is not meant to facilitate the working of the Constitution as drafted, it is only a challenge to the Constitution, and to the principle which is at stake. It provides that any union in Malta which subscribes to a union in England is no longer to be represented on any trade union council. It also provides that the representation of the Trade Union Council, so positively enacted by the right hon. Gentleman, is to be wiped out, and is to be substituted by the representation of "benefit" societies. Everybody knows how that is going to be arranged, because it will be so done that the benefit societies will be under the orders of the friends of the Italians. I think my right hon. Friend knows perfectly well that that is an infringement of the Constitution. I am aware that the Bill requires a two-thirds majority, and as this cannot be expected it is merely a brutum fulmen. The right hon. Gentleman has told us to-day that he has a "full report" from his officials. If that is the sort of full report which the Imperial officers furnish for the Secretary of State I think the time has come for further inquiry. On the former question the right hon. Gentleman said he had not got so far as discussing any sort of report; the Governor had not complained, and, therefore, he had nothing to say.
We must remember that the Governor of Malta is a high military officer selected by the Secretary of State for War. How far the Secretary of State for the Colonies has anything beyond technical responsibility for his appointment would be a question far too long to discuss, but the anomaly is that the Constitution provides that the Governor shall have, as legal adviser and civilian adviser, two other officers, and they are the persons responsible to this House through the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The position of a military Governor in regard to constitutional questions can be compared to my own position when I was Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Leeward Islands, quite incompetent to drill a company of soldiers; or, again, when I was by Statute Vice-Admiral of New South Wales, quite incompetent to lead a fleet in line ahead. That being the condition of affairs, I think I am thoroughly entitled to ask my right hon. Friend to inquire further as to whether the Imperial officers who are responsible, by their legal and political advice, for the continuation of this state of affairs for political and party purposes, should not give a further account of the matter.
It would be almost a new theme for an opera by Gilbert and Sullivan if I were to remind my right hon. Friend that, just at the time when he was saying the Governor had not complained to him, the Governor was away on leave in Tripoli, and the permanent Imperial officer who would be responsible normally for giving the Governor bad advice was the person acting for the Governor, and, therefore, could not report about himself. When anyone has made complaint to the Military Governor about action or inaction, or pro-Italian tendencies or proclivities, or hostility to British Imperialism and counter propaganda on the part of any of the permanent officers, what does the Governor say? He says, "These officers are not selected by me; they are appointed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies. If you have any complaint, go to him." And when I have gone to my right hon. Friend, he has told me to go to the Governor. In these circumstances I come to this House, not as one connected in any way with the Parliament of Malta, but as a common taxpayer in England; and as a taxpayer in England one has the right to claim that my right hon. Friend's Department shall be efficiently administered.
The key to this conundrum is to be found by reference to very recent history —to the developments that ended in the still continuing grievances of the loyalists of Southern Ireland, and to the proceedings which ended in that part of the once United Kingdom becoming a colony just as extraneous to Great Britain as South Africa, Malta or any other of the Dominions. In Ireland, as all of us will remember, when the predecessors of right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench wanted to say that all was serene, the police were ordered to report that there had been no agrarian murders, that no cattle had been maimed, that everything was quiet. That is what is going on now in Malta, not by the order of my right hon. Friend, but of the officers who might easily receive orders from him quite differently with reference to pro-Italian propaganda. It is said it does not exist. What better proof could we have than this very Trade Union Bill, with its determination to eliminate anything connected with England? It attempts to alter the constitution and penalises the trade unions because they are British in their instincts and because they contribute to English trade unions.
It is rather difficult to follow the hon. Member's argument. It all seems to me to amount to a criticism of the Governor. The Governor is, surely, responsible for the action, and not his advisers: and if that be so, this should only be done by a substantive Motion. That is our Constitutional rule. It seems to reduce itself to an attack upon the Governor of Malta.
I entirely dissociate myself from any such idea. I have endeavoured to submit that on the technical constitutional question, it is not the Governor of Malta but the staff officers who are sent to assist him by the Colonial Office, who are open to receive instructions from the Secretary of State.
Supposing that were applied to Australia or Canada or South Africa, we should very soon hear about interference by the Imperial Parliament. I think we must be careful in the case of the minor parliaments to observe the same rule.
I assure you, Sir, that in proceeding with this argument no one could be more careful than I shall be to meet the point which you have raised, having been the Governor of three Australian States, and being well aware of their mentality as well as of their constitution, and having been the Governor of a Crown Colony in the Federation of the Leeward Islands. I will endeavour to refer only to this point, where I feel I know, after long experience, that the right hon. Gentleman is directly responsible to the Imperial Parliament, and to see that constitutional rights are in no way infringed, in so far as Malta is a diarchy, which means that much of the work of government, and especially foreign affairs, is solely and exclusively under the responsibility of my right hon. Friend. If my right hon. Friend thinks it conducive to the spirit of patriotism and the progress of the work which Britisn Imperialists do in Malta that permanent officials there and their friends are decrying the efforts of the British party and saying there is no Italian propaganda, this is a matter of foreign affairs and entirely under the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The permanent officials in Malta have systematically interfered in local politics to the extent of supporting pro-Italians, encouraging Italian propaganda and discouraging the counter propaganda of the British party. When complaints are made against these officials, however sound and true they may be, they are not considered. They are swept aside. As for the constitution, do not let my right hon. Friend take away with one hand what he has given with the other.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Sir G. Strickland) is here in a rather exceptional position. He is, on the one hand, a Member of this House, and, on the other hand, he is also Leader of the Opposition in Malta, separated from office, as he has intimated to us, by a majority so narrow as to depend at times upon the casting vote of the Speaker. He is in this House a staunch supporter of the Government and an opponent of the Labour party; as Leader of the Opposition in the Malta Parliament, he is dependent for considerable support upon a section of the Labour party, and, from that point of view, his "ardent Imperialism" coincides with his interest in the "just aspirations of Labour." What he feels is that his natural aspirations as Leader of the Opposition in Malta have not been sufficiently assisted by the Governor in putting pressure upon Ministers to deal more firmly with the delay in filling-up of two vacancies in the Senate; due to be filled in accordance with the provisions introduced as he correctly stated by myself into the Constitution— that two members of the Senate shall be elected by the Trade Union Council. There were two members so elected under the provisional arrangements made by the Governor before the Constitution came into full operation. About 10 months ago these two Members happened to be elected to the Lower House, and their places became vacant. Writs for the return of two new Labour representatives in the Upper House were issued, but the returning officer declined then on the ground that he was only the returning officer for the Election of 1921, and that the Trade Union Council had to appoint a new one. The Governor, on looking into the matter, found that several of the constituent trade union bodies with whom he consulted in 1921 were no longer in existence.
Can you name them?
I have not the details. Other unions considered that the Regulations made in 1921 were no longer applicable. He referred the question to his Ministers, who took the view— whether right or wrong, it was their immediate sphere of responsibility—that as there was no trade union council in existence—
There was and is.
—in their view they were bound to introduce legislation setting up a Trade Union Council. That legislation may be good or bad, but, at any rate, it is a matter within the constitutional privileges of the Parliament of Malta, and it is in the Parliament of Malta, and not in this House, that my hon. Friend ought to raise his objection to the character of that legislation. That legislation was introduced on 17th November last, and the Bill received its Second Reading a week afterwards. The Committee stage was then postponed at the request of the Leader of the Labour party, I have no doubt for very good reasons. Early in January the matter was again postponed at the request of the Leader of the Labour party. In consequence of pressure of business in connection with the Estimates and other legislative matters, it was postponed over the Adjournment until the beginning of the present month. It passed the Committee stage early this month, and the last information I have from the Governor was that the Bill was due for Third Reading on the 14th of this month, namely, at the end of last week. I would repeat, that that Measure, whether in itself a good Measure or not, comes within the competence of the Parliament of Malta, and, therefore, it is not for me to discuss it in this House. The only question that can arise, really, is that of delay.
And the manufacture of a majority.
Whether that delay did prejudice my hon. Friend's opportunity— whether the Government may not have been as prompt as they might have been— is not a matter upon which I feel prepared to pronounce a decision. We did entrust Malta with a very wide measure of self-government, and it is not within our province at the moment if that self-government is exercised in a manner which some of us may not think very satisfactory, to go back and interfere further than might be absolutely required by a definite and flagrant violation of the terms of the Constitution. In this case there has been delay, possibly prejudicial to the interest of my hon. Friend in his other capacity, and that of his associates in Malta, but on the report which the Governor has sent me of the various stages in this matter, I see no reason to quarrel with the action which has been taken. Still less do I feel any justification for criticising those on whom the responsibility does not fall. The responsibility in this matter, as far as I am concerned, rests entirely with the Governor, and I am fully satisfied with the manner in which he has used his discretion.
Does the form of self-government which was given to Malta give the power to alter the franchise in such a manner as to be prejudicial to the representation created in favour of the Trade Union Council?
The body was "the Trade Union Council," and the view which the Government of Malta have taken is that the Constitution of the Trade Union Council should be defined by law. I have not seen the details of the law—I shall certainly take pains to acquaint myself with it—but as far as I have been informed, it does not constitute a violation of the Constitution.
Will the right hon. Gentleman put before the House the form of self-government under which power is given to make the change which is now being introduced by the Maltese Government?
The Clause in the Constitution simply prescribes that these two members shall be representatives of and elected by "the Trade Union Council." Unfortunately, the Constitution did not prescribe in detail exactly what was meant by the Trade Union Council, and the view of the Ministers, to which the Governor assented, was that it was necessary to define by law exactly what was meant.
I would assist my right hon. Friend by reminding him that the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority to alter it. Therefore there is not the remotest hope of such a Bill passing. It is simply a new method of introducing Fascisti methods, and my contention is that these officials are introducing that spirit, and are dealing hardly with the British party.
I very strongly repudiate the suggestion that the Governor or his officials were in their action animated by any other intention than that of seeing that the form of self-government granted to Malta is fully and fairly carried out.
It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.