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Commons Chamber

Volume 184: debated on Wednesday 20 May 1925

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 20, 1925

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

PRIVATE BILLS [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely;—

Standard Life Assurance Company Bill [ Lords ].

St. Mildred's Churchyard Bill [ Lords ].

Bills to be read a Second time.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.

Tramways Provisional Orders Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.

Greenwich Hospital (Disused Burial Ground) Bill,

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 31st day of March, That, in the case of the following Bill, no Standing Orders are applicable:

Greenwich Hospital (Disused Burial Ground) Bill.

South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Kilmarnock Gas and Water Provisional Order Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Passports and Visas

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have arrived at a decision with regard to the proposal of the United States Government to abolish visa fees on passports?

No, Sir; I cannot as yet add anything to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 6th instant. The matter is still under consideration.

Would it not be possible to consider at the same time the abolition of the visa itself between this country and the United States?

Bulgaria

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire whether he has received any report from our Minister in Sofia on the present state of affairs in Bulgaria; and, if so, whether any part of the Report could with advantage be made public?

His Majesty's Minister at Sofia naturally keeps me fully informed of affairs in Bulgaria, but I do not think that it would be in the public interest to publish the reports which he sends me at present.

Is there anything in these reports leading to a recommendation of the extension of the powers to enlist 10,000 additional men beyond the 31st May?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Bulgarian Government have asked for any extension of the period during which additional troops may be maintained; and whether His Majesty's Government have had any communication with the Bulgarian Government in the matter?

No such request has been officially made to me, nor do I anticipate that it will be made. The decision of the Ambassadors' Conference definitely fixed for a time for the disbandment of the extra troops, and I have no reason to suppose that any of the Powers represented in the Conference have changed their views of what is necessary and expedient having regard to all the circumstances of the case, both internal and external.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that without these additional troops the Bulgarian Government have at their disposal the force necessary to deal with the internal situation?

Have the views of His Majesty's Government on this point been communicated to the Bulgarian Government?

Germany

Disarmament (Allied Note)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, and, if so, when, it is proposed to publish the terms of the Allied Note to Germany dealing with German default under the Treaty?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he will be in a position to publish the terms of the Note to Germany relative to disarmament?

Certainly it is proposed to publish the Allied Note to the German Government, but I am unable to give the date on which publication will be made. The Note must first be despatched and, in common courtesy, duly received at its destination.

President Hindenburg

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether felicitations have been sent on behalf of His Majesty's Government to the new President of Germany on his election; and, if not, when they will be sent?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. It is not the practice of His. Majesty's Government to send their felicitations to the President of a foreign country on his election. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise. There may be special cases in which it may be done, but it is not the practice.

Is there any difference between felicitations sent by His Majesty and felicitations sent by His Majesty's Government?

Yes. There is the difference that one proceeds from His Majesty and the other proceeds from His Majesty's Government.

Is it usual to send felicitations to the head of a State who occupies the throne? For example, do we send felicitations to a king?

I do not carry the whole Protocol in my mind. I must have notice of a question of that kind. I have answered the question on the Paper. It is not our practice to send congratulations from His Majesty's Government on the election of a president in the ordinary course.

Is it not within the memory of the right hon. Gentleman that felicitations were sent by His Majesty's Government to President Ebert; and why were not felicitations sent to his successor?

It is not within my recollection. I do not deny it. The general practice of the Government is as I have stated, but there are special occasions on which, for one reason or another, His Majesty's Government thought it right to make an exception.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Coalition Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a Member, sent congratulations to the Polish General Pilsudski when he occupied Kieff?

Morocco

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any agreement has been made with the Governments of France and Spain with reference to the operations in Morocco; and, if so, will he furnish particulars to the House?

Russia

Legation, London (Officials)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of paid and unpaid officials of foreign nationality employed at the Russian Legation in London; how these numbers compare with other Embassies; and whether the number of unpaid attachés is limited?

As regards the numbers employed in the Soviet Mission, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Poplar on 10th May; whether these officials are paid or unpaid is no concern, of His Majesty's Government, and I should not think of inquiring.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question regarding unpaid attachés, and how they compare with other Embassies?

Whether their officials are paid or unpaid is no affair of ours, and I do not think that I should be called upon to inquire into it.

Soviet Government (British Property at Petrograd)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Soviet Government have yet acceded to the request of His Majesty's Government for the return of the property of His Majesty's Government and the personal belongings of the former Ambassadors and diplomatic staff of His Majesty's Embassy at Petrograd; and what reasons, if any, have been put forward by the Soviet Government for failing to comply with the usual diplomatic usage in such matters?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, the Soviet Government have given no good reason for their failure to comply with the request of His Majesty's Government, and I am awaiting a report from His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Moscow, upon the further representations which he has been instructed to make.

Do I understand that the Government are quite powerless in this matter? Have they consulted the Secretary of State in the late Socialist Government?

Is it not a fact that the Soviet Government have offered to replace furniture which was damaged or lost

I know nothing about the offer to replace anything damaged or lost. What I do know is that they have not returned it to the Embassy buildings.

Is it not against the principles of the Soviet Government to return anybody's property?

Internal Affairs

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if any approach is being made by His Majesty's Government to any foreign government or has been made by any foreign government to the British Government with a view to making any joint demands on the Soviet Government of Russia which would involve interference in the internal affairs of Russia.

What steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to clear up the outstanding difficulties between this country and Russia? Are any steps being taken to secure payment for creditors? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the vacillating policy of the Government is resulting in—

Royal Navy

Ratings, East Indies (Pay)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that certain naval ratings on the East Indies station have their pay calculated in sterling, but are actually paid in rupees, thereby losing at least 2d. on each rupee; that these naval ratings are assessed for Income Tax purposes on a sterling basis, thus being penalised twice over for serving on this station; and if he will take steps to deal with this disadvantage?

The pay of all naval personnel, irrespective of the station on which they are serving, is based on sterling. Charges such as allotment and Income Tax are also necessarily based on sterling, and it is only in respect of any balance of pay actually paid on the station that profit or loss can occur through the use of currency. The exchanges, in so far as they affect naval personnel, are constantly under review.

Singapore (Establishment)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the annual cost of the Imperial naval establishment on shore at Singapore; and what is the estimated cost of such establishment when the proposed naval base is completed?

As my hon. Friend is aware, there is at present only a commercial dockyard at Singapore. The only purely Admiralty establishment there is an oil fuel depot, but a beginning is being made of the works for the naval base on the scale indicated in my statement of the 19th March last. The cost of the future establishment will, of course, be dependent on the final scale of development, which is still under consideration.

In the Estimates which have been presented to the public in connection with Singapore, has anything been added in respect of increased annual charges?

Floating Dock, Devonport

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, with refer- ence to the floating dock intended for Devonport, what its dimensions may be and whether it will accommodate the biggest ship in the Royal Navy?

The dock's overall length is 680 feet, and the clear width between the walls is 107 feet. It will accommodate all ships except His Majesty's Ship "Hood."

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, with reference to the preparations being made for the reception of a floating dock in Devonport dockyard, whether he will undertake to see that these preparations are completed without delay, in view of the urgent necessity for such a dock in an English national yard and of its importance to the men who man the Devonport ships?

Vocational Training

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing the difficulty men leaving the Navy have in obtaining employment, he can see his way clear to issue orders to the effect that men within three months of the termination of their continuous service engagement may be given leave to take up vocational training to fit themselves for employment offered them?

I regret that, as the numbers borne on Vote A are based solely on manning requirements, it is impossible to adopt this proposal.

Oil Ballast

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that a number of Admiralty officials have witnessed a series of demonstrations by the Pirbright oil-separating barges operating on Admiralty oil-tankers in Portsmouth harbour; that on the last occasion this company undertook to separate oil ballast from water under conditions laid down by Admiralty officials, and that the conditions were satisfactorily carried out; and, if so, will he take steps to have this or some similar system introduced into oil-burning vessels of His Majesty's Navy in order to prevent the pollution of our coast by oily ballast from these vessels?

There have been several demonstrations of the Pirbright oil-separating barges at Portsmouth, but none of these has been entirely satisfactory. As I informed my hon. Friend on the 14th May, the degree of efficiency necessary to justify adoption of a particular type has not yet been obtained.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the complaint about oil is very general and affects almost all the seaside resorts of the Kingdom?

Yes, Sir. I am aware of that. Immediately any really efficient separator is available the Admiralty will certainly consider it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this system has been tried by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company in one of their ships and has been found to effect a tremendous saving, as well as proving efficient; and will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries?

Washington Hours Convention

asked the Minister of Labour when he will be in a position to state the result of his negotiations with foreign Governments relative to the ratification of the Washington Hours Convention?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply on this matter given to the Noble Lord the Member for Nottingham South on the 13th May.

Would the right hon. Gentleman state when, if a question is put down, there is likely to be a definite answer?

I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Gentleman or with the hon. Member who put the question if he wishes. It will take some little time.

Unemployment

Uncovenanted Benefit

asked the Minister of Labour if he will consider the appointment of local voluntary committees to investigate in the first place from personal knowledge all applications for uncovenanted benefit?

Such committees already exist in the form of the local employment committees, which are in operation in every area in the country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some rural districts it is necessary to travel 20 miles in order to get the necessary interview, and if that interview is successful it is again necessary to travel nine or 10 miles to receive the amount?

Obviously the distances to be travelled in country districts must be greater than in boroughs and closely populated places. If there are any cases of special inconvenience or special hardship which can be avoided, I am always willing to consider some way of getting over them, if the hon. Member will let me know of any such cases.

Benefit (Non-Claimants)

asked the Minister of Labour how many subscribers to the Unemployment Insurance Fund have as yet drawn nothing in respect of unemployment donation?

I regret that this information is not available. In order to obtain it, the accounts of all insured contributors, numbering many millions, would have to be separately examined.

Waiving of Contributions

asked the Minister of Labour if he has received any representations in favour of waiving for a further period of 12 months the provisions of Section 3 of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1924, requiring payment of 30 contributions to entitle the contributor to receive the benefits provided by the Act; and whether, before taking any such step, he proposes to investigate the whole operation of this Measure?

As I stated in the Debate last Thursday, I propose to introduce a Bill this Session to deal with this point and other matters in connection with unemployment insurance. It will not be possible to have a formal inquiry before this Bill is introduced, but I contemplate setting up a Committee to advise me as to the further proposals which will have to be made before June of next year, when the provision of benefit under the existing law comes to an end.

Has not the Minister received representations from guardians asking him to waive that section?

Yes, I have received representations from many classes of people, and that is one of the reasons why I have stated continually that this Bill, in the existing state of trade, is necessary.

Domestic Service (L. Nicholls)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Louisa Nicholls, of 5, Clegg Street, St. George-in-the-East, aged 60 years, after being in one situation as a general servant for five years, was dismissed on account of her employer going abroad; that, after signing on at the Stepney Employment Exchange, she was sent to a situation but was informed by the potential employer that she was not suitable; that she was then sent to a situation in Christian Street, E., where she was asked to work as a general servant from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Sundays included, for a wage of 2s. per day; that she refused this situation; that the insurance officer refused benefit on the ground that she was not genuinely seeking employment; that this decision was upheld by the court of referees; and that leave to appeal to the umpire was refused; and whether, in view of the conditions offered, he will have the case reviewed with the object of reinstating Mrs. Nicholls for benefit?

I am having inquiries made and will inform the hon. Member of the result as soon as possible. I should mention, however, that I have no authority to over-ride the decision of a court of referees, and all I can do is to invite the court to grant a rehearing if there are any new facts which seem to justify this course.

Jury Service

( for Colonel DAY)asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that three unemployed men, serving on a jury at the Selley Coroners' Court on 8th May, were refused unemployment benefit at the Local Exchange on the ground that the juryman's fee of one shilling, which they received, was deemed to be earnings; whether this action has his endorsement; and, if not, is he prepared to take action to prevent the penalisation of unemployed men who are carrying out a statutory obligation?

Benefit was not refused. The men asked whether benefit would be payable for the day of their attendance on the jury, and were informed that the question of eligibility had to be determined. This was dealt with speedily and benefit was paid without any delay.

Women and Girls, Govan

(for Mr. NEIL MACLEAN)asked the Minister of Labour the number of women and girls who have been refused benefit during the past four months at the Govan Employment Exchange for declining a situation at Hawick in a fishmonger's shop; and how many of these women were married?

The vacancy referred to. that of fishmonger's assistant, was offered to three married women who had had experience in the occupation varying from three to 14 years. The wage offered was from 40s. to 50s. per week of 55 hours. Benefit was disallowed on refusal, but the Court of Referees subsequently allowed benefit in two out of the three cases.

Documentary Evidence

( for Mr. N. MACLEAN) asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the request for documentary evidence from claimants of benefit to prove they are making genuine efforts to find employment, he will consider the issuing from Exchanges of forms upon which employers can certify that the possessor of the form has made application to him for work; and whether such form will be held as evidence of the genuineness of the claimant's case?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 18th February last to a similar question put to me by the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Luke Thompson).

Labour Advisory Committee. Darlaston

29 and 30.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) the personnel of the Darlaston Labour Advisory Committee, and who constituted the meeting held on 12th May, 1925;

(2) the dates when the Darlaston Labour Advisory Committee met during 1924?

The Darlaston Main Employment Committee in 1924 met on the 25th March, 12th August and 16th December. I am inquiring as to the names of the members present at the meeting of the 12th May this year, and will communicate with the hon. Member. As the list of names of members of the committee is somewhat lengthy. I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor gave an instruction that this committee should meet at least once a quarter, and in 1924 the committee only met three times?

Yes, certainly, if the hon. Member wishes.

Following is the list:

The personnel of the Darlaston Employment Committee is as follows:

Chairman:

Mr. C. W. B. Joynson, J. P., C. C.

Representatives of Employers:

Mr. G. Wiley.

Mr. G. F. V. Richards.

Mr. F. Morgan.

Mr. A. E. Owen.

Mr. T. Stokes.

Mr. A. H. Hill.

Mr. W. Martin Winn.

Mr. A. Humpage.

Mr. W. J. Gill.

Mr. E. A. Richards.

Representatives of Workpeople:

Mr. S. Ashmore.

Mr. B. Turner.

Miss M. Fields.

Miss F. Mills.

Mr. J. Barratt.

Mr. S. Hodson.

Mr. J. Sanders.

Mr. E. Bradley.

Mr. J. S. Howe.

Mr. J. H. Vaughan.

Additional Members:

Captain D. J. Slater, D.P.C.

Mr. A. B. Saunders.

Councillor F. C. Wesson

Mr. C. Foster.

Night Baking

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of publishing as a White Paper the suggested Amendments tabled by the Government to the draft convention on night work in bakeries, together with the correspondence with the International Labour Office relating thereto?

I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion when the time comes for publishing the Report of the Government delegates to the Conference. Most of the documents to which he refers are contained in a publication of the International Labour Office on Night Work in Bakeries, of which I am sending him a copy.

Will the Minister consider the advisability of placing In the Library of the House copies of the Daily Reports issued in Geneva in connection with the International Labour Conference now proceeding?

I cannot give an answer off-hand, but I will consider the matter, and let the hon. Gentleman know.

Royal Air Force

Aerodromes (South-West Ireland)

asked the Secretary of State for Air if any aerodromes were built, or commenced, during the War in the South-West of Ireland; and, if to, what are their names?

Yes, Sir, there were in November, 1918, a. completed aerodrome at Fermoy and an unfinished one, for airships, at Killeagh, 20 miles east of Cork. I am not sure whether the hon. Member's question covers seaplane and kite balloon stations, which had no land aerodromes attached; but if it does, there were seaplane stations at Aghada, near Queens-town, and at Whiddy Isle, in Bantry Bay, and a kite balloon station at Berehaven.

Officer's Effects (E. C. Usher-Somers)

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that the effects of the late Flying-Officer E. C. Usher-Somers, who was killed at Quetta in August, 1924, realised about £97; and why has this amount not been paid to his relatives?

The credit balance of the officer's estate, including the sum realised for his effects, came to £108 4s. 2d., and payment of this amount was made to the officer's mother last week. This payment has been authorised specially, in order to avoid further delay, although the amount has not yet been remitted from India. The delay is regretted, and inquiries are being made as to the cause.

Home Defence (Bombing Planes)

asked the Secretary of State for Air the number of bombing aeroplanes at present available in the Home Defence Air Force?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 24th February last, and would add that the situation has not altered since that reply was given.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether these bombing aeroplanes are for defensive purposes?

Enemy Aircraft (War Casualties)

asked the Secretary of State for Air the number of rounds fired in this country by anti-aircraft guns against hostile aircraft during the late War; and the number of direct hits recorded as a result of such fire?

I have been asked to reply. Records of the number of rounds fired in this country by anti-aircraft guns throughout the whole period of the War are not available, but it is known that between 24th September, 1917, and 5th August, 1918, the number of rounds fired was 155,132. The number of direct hits on enemy aircraft could not be definitely recorded, but 15 aeroplanes were destroyed during the War by antiaircraft fire, and two airships were destroyed by anti-aircraft fire alone and four by guns and aeroplanes jointly. Many other aircraft were seriously damaged though not brought down.

Is it not a fact that no direct hit was achieved by anti-aircraft fire in this country during the War?

If the hon. Member will read my answer, he will see that two airships were destroyed by anti-aircraft fire alone, as well as 14 aeroplanes.

May I ask the Secretary of State for Air whether he does not think that the efficiency of the antiaircraft batteries would be greatly increased if they were under his control, and worked in co-operation with the Air Force?

Aviation, Northern Europe

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been drawn to the development of the German civilian air service, and to the formation of an air-service combine to cover a great part of Northern Europe under German auspices; and what steps are being taken to safeguard British flying rights in Northern Europe and the development of British aviation in this area?

The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. As regard the third part, air agreements have been concluded with Holland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, and negotiations for an agreement with Germany are in progress. As regards the fourth part, British air services regularly operate to Amsterdam, connecting with the Copenhagen-Malmo air service, and thus providing a through route from London to Scandinavia, and also to Berlin in co-operation with the Deutscher Aero Lloyd A.C., but it has not yet been possible further to develop British aviation in Northern Europe.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the information. May I ask, in regard to these negotiations with the German aircraft companies—I presume that they are with the companies, and not with the Government—is not part of the negotiations with regard to the granting of flying rights over German territory, and is the matter on the way to settlement?

The main negotiations are with the Government, but the British and German companies are also in constant consultation, and I have no reason to think that satisfactory working agreements will not be reached between the companies concerned.

As to the negotiations with the Government, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether they involve some relaxation of the Treaty restrictions? If so, what is contemplated, and when may a result he achieved?

I am afraid that I cannot say when any result will be reached. We are only one party to the negotiations for the relaxation of the Treaty restrictions. The hon. and gallant Member knows that this question has been constantly under consideration for two or three years, and that no one wishes to see a satisfactory result obtained more than myself.

Arms Traffic Conference

asked the Prime Minister whether the British delegation to the Arms Traffic Conference, now sitting in Geneva, has been instructed to secure exemption from the Convention of warships, aeroplanes, and tanks; and whether other countries have signified their willingness to agree to the inclusion of armaments of all kinds?

As stated in the answer which I gave last Thursday to the hon. Member for Brightside, the instruction to the British delegate was to press, on differing grounds in each case, for the exclusion of warships and aircraft from the scope of the Convention. He was to support the inclusion of tanks the technical committee, which has been considering the question of warships, has voted by a considerable majority in favour of their exclusion. I am not yet aware what has occurred as regards the other two arms. As regards the second part of the question, I am not in a position to state the exact facts, but it may be assumed that some of the delegations have adopted the attitude described in the question.

Surely it is in our interest to have a patrol of warships going to other countries? What is the reason for this instruction to our delegates?

If the hon. and gallant Member will look at my answer to the hon. Member for Brightside, lie will find given, within the limits that are imposed in an answer to a question, the reply to the question that he has put to me.

New Houses

asked the Minister of Health if he will publish the most recent Returns showing the number of new houses completed under the 1923 and 1924 Acts, respectively?

With my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

Housing with State Assistance.

STATEMENT showing the position of Housing Schemes under the Housing, Etc., Act, 1923, and the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, on the undermentioned dates.

Act of 1923.

Act of 1924.

I. HOUSES AUTHORISED BY THE MINISTER OF HEALTH up to 6th May, 1925 (including those in II and III below).

To be erected by Local Authorities

54,163

51,576

To be erected by Private Enterprise

147,240

1,346

Total

201,403

52,922

II. HOUSES INCLUDED IN DEFINITE ARRANGEMENTS on or before the 1st May, 1925 (including those in III below).

Schemes of Local Authorities:—

Number of houses included in contracts or in approved direct labour schemes.

42,090

32,689

Private Enterprise:—

Number of houses included in certificates given by Local Authorities.

102,382

311

Number of houses approved by the Minister under Section 3 of the Act of 1923 and Section 2 of the Act of 1924 and included in contracts.

6,177

10

Total

150,649

33,010

III. BUILDING PROGRESS at 1st May, 1925.

Number of houses under construction:—

Schemes of Local Authorities

12,727

13,045

Private Enterprise

30,305

125

Total

43,032

13,170

Number of houses completed:—

Schemes of Local Authorities

20,998

3,248

Private Enterprise

55,811

11

Total

76,809

3,259

asked the Minister of Health whether he will have prepared a chart, to be hung in the Tea Room, showing the monthly returns of new houses completed under the 1923 and 1924 Acts, respectively?

Casual Wards (Oakum-Picking)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to state the result of his reconsideration of the order authorising oakum-picking as a task for casuals?

My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to announce a decision on this question.

Does it really take a long time to decide to abolish altogether this degrading punishment?

In order to settle this question once for all, will the Parliamentary Secretary himself try to pick a pound of oakum?

The only question was whether the Parliamentary Secretary was in a position to state the result of his reconsideration. All these other matters cannot arise from that.

I wished only to ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary had tried to pick a pound himself.

Agricultural Produce (Transport)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the unofficial committee of representatives of agriculture and of the railway companies, set up two years ago to consider questions affecting the transport by rail of agricultural produce, is still in existence?

I understand that the committee in question has not held any meetings for some considerable time. I am glad, however, to be able to announce that arrangements have now been made for the committee to resume at an early date its discussion of the various problems affecting the carriage of agricultural produce and livestock on the railways. I would add that I shall be happy to arrange for an officer to attend any meetings of the committee if so desired and to render any assistance that may be within the power of my Department.

Does not the necessity for this meeting reflect very considerably upon the efficacy of the Railway Rates Tribunal?

Coal Industry (Economic Position)

asked the Secretary for Mines if his attention has been drawn to the official statement summarising the proceedings of the joint sub-committee appointed by the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation regarding the economic position of the coal industry in this country; and whether he has any statement to make concerning the attitude of His Majesty's Government?

I have seen the report referred to. The sub-committee have not yet completed their proceedings and I have no statement to make at present.

Royal Ordnance Factories, Woolwich (Dismissals)

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that serious unemployment exists in the metropolitan borough of Woolwich; that there are many thousands of men on the books of the Employment Exchange; that these were added to by 25 dismissals from the Royal Ordnance Factories last week; that 26 men are under notice of discharge for the current week; and that further dismissals are expected; and will he make inquiries with a view to seeing whether these dismissals can be suspended and such work allotted to the ordnance factories as will prevent further discharges?

Twenty-two employés were discharged from Woolwich last week; the discharges were largely due to the fact that the work for which they were engaged has been completed. The numbers employed at Woolwich necessarily vary with the amount and nature of the work available, and the hon. Member will appreciate that while it may be necessary to discharge a particular batch of men owing to the completion of an order, this will often be compensated for by the engagement of new entrants for other work. The number of men at present employed at Woolwich is, however, considerably in excess of the number for whom work is likely to be available in future years, and it will be necessary to effect gradual reductions as opportunity offers. The question of providing work for the ordnance factories is constantly borne in mind, and it is hoped to avoid, at any rate during this financial year, discharges on a large scale.

Enemy Action Claims

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the Reparations Claims Commission is expected to complete its work; how many claims still remain to be dealt with; and how much of the £300,000 is still unallocated?

I am afraid I cannot yet say definitely when the settlement of reparation claims will be completed. There are 415 claims dealt with by the Royal Com- mission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action against the £5,000,000 fund awaiting settlement, and payment of these claims will be made so soon as some further necessary particulars are furnished. As against the £300,000 "belated" fund there are 1,368 claims which have been admitted and will be paid subject to further necessary particulars being furnished, while 1,200 claims are in course of examination. In addition, there are outstanding claims by nearly 2,600 persons who have so far failed to complete and return the forms issued to them. I may add that the number of claims which have been paid amount to 44,918 under awards of the Royal Commission, and to 22,863 under awards on belated claims. With regard to the last part of the question, approximately £37,800 is unexpended out of the £300,000.

Children's Court, Cowbridge

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the action of the presiding magistrate at the Cowbridge Police Court in ordering out of a Children's Court the accredited representatives of the newspapers; and whether, in view of Section 114 of the Children Act, 1908, he will circularise magistrates calling their attention to the provisions of the law?

The law on this point was clearly stated in a Circular about Juvenile Courts sent to magistrates in April, 1921, and the paragraph was repeated in the Second Report of the Children's Branch, which was also sent to magistrates. My right hon. Friend sees no reason for sending out a further Circular, but he will see that the hon. and gallant Member's question and my reply are brought to the notice of the Cowbridge magistrates.

Spirits (Export)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount per gallon, and the total amount of the bounty on spirits exported during the last 12 months, and the quantity sent to the United States of America, and the bounty paid thereon?

No bounty is paid on spirits exported from this country, but export allowances of 3d. per proof gallon on British plain spirits, mineralised methylated spirits, and rectified spirits of wine, and of 5d. per proof gallon on British compounded spirits are paid as compensation for the enhanced cost of manufacture due to Revenue restrictions. The total amount of such allowances paid during the year ended 31st March, 1925, was £114,566. Separate particulars of the quantity of spirits exported to the United States, and the amount of the allowances paid on such spirits are not available.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of gallons of potable spirits of British origin and manufacture exported during 1923–24 and to date?

The quantities of potable spirits of British origin and manufacture exported from Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the calendar years 1923 and 1924 and during the period 1st January to 30th April, 1925, were 7,223,848, 8,534,492, and 2,865,552 proof gallons respectively.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many thousand gallons of Guinness's stout have been sent over to Canada?

Finance Bill

Silk Duties

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Customs Duty on silk will be imposed upon wood pulp prepared for conversion into artificial silk tissue?

Wood pulp prepared for conversion, but not actually converted, into artificial silk would not be liable to silk duty.

Contributory Pensions Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps, if any, he proposes to take to lighten the burden of the new insurance contribution on industry?

West Indian Rum (Exports to Germany)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is in a position to state how many gallons of West Indian rum were exported to Germany during the last 12 months?

The quantity of rum originally consigned from the West Indies and re-exported to Germany from Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the 12 months ended 30th April, 1925, was 262,247 proof gallons.

Lapsed Industrial Assurance Policies

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he has consulted the Industrial Assurance Commissioner with regard to the insertion of a notice in the public Press reminding the holders of lapsed industrial assurance policies that their protection under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act expires on the 7th June next; and what further action the Government proposes to take to protect the people who otherwise will suffer loss?

I am advised that the statements which have been made as to number of policies affected by the expiration of the date for application on the 7th June are much exaggerated. The only policies affected are life or endowment policies for £25 or less, with premiums payable at intervals of a calendar month or less, which were taken out before the 4th August, 1912, had premiums paid on them for the period between the 4th August, 1912, and the 4th August, 1914, and became claims by the death of the life assured before the 7th March, 1924. I understand that it is possible, though the point has not yet been decided, that owners of policies which have not been duly forfeited can still apply under the general law notwithstanding the expiration of the date limited by the Section. In all the circumstances, I am arranging for the Industrial Assurance Commissioner to put a short notice in some of the most widely circulated Sunday newspapers next Sunday, the 24th May.

Eight Hours' Day

asked the Minister of Labour which countries have an eight-hour day or less or a 48-hour week for women, either by legislation, Regulation, or collective agreement?

As the reply to my Noble Friend's question is necessarily rather long, I will, with his permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The laws or Regulations establishing a maximum working day of eight hours, or week of 48 hours, or less, apply, as a rule, to industrial workers of both sexes. So far as my information goes, legislation laying down the principle of the 48-hour week, or the 8-hour day, has been enacted by the following countries:—France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Holland, Switzerland, Denmark (continuous trades only), Norway, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Greece, Bulgaria, Soviet Russia, Lithuania, the Serb-Croat-Slovene Kingdom, Latvia, Costa Rica, certain States of Mexico, certain provinces of the Argentine Republic, Chile, Ecuador, Panama, Uruguay, and New South Wales, New Zealand and British Columbia. It should be understood, however, that in most cases provision is made for the extension of these hours either by way of overtime or otherwise, and particulars as to such provisions, or as to the hours actually worked, are not available. As regards the United States there is no Federal legislation specifically limiting the hours of women, other than employés of the Federal Government. In all States of the Union except four, laws are in force prohibiting the employment of women for more than a certain number of hours; in 10 of these States the hours are restricted to eight per day, or 48 per week. As regards Great Britain, particulars of the normal working hours fixed by collective agreement, or by Orders under the Trade Boards Acts, are given in a special article in the current issue of the " Ministry of Labour Gazette."

Egypt

Retirement of Lord Allenby

SIR GEORGE LLOYD'S APPOINTMENT.

( by Private Notice )asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make with regard to the future representation of this country in Cairo?

Lord Allenby informed me last autumn of his desire to be relieved as soon as the public interest made his retirement possible. I received the announcement of his intentions with great regret, and, at my request, he has continued to hold the post of High Commissioner up till the present time. His resignation has now been accepted.

His Majesty has been pleased to approve the appointment of the right hon. Sir George Lloyd, K.C.S.I., G.C.I.E., D.S.O., to succeed him.

I need scarcely add that Lord Allenby's retirement and Sir George Lloyd's appointment imply no change in the policy of His Majesty's Government in relation to either Egypt or the Sudan.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a question on this subject was asked him on Monday, and that his Office then replied that they had no information? How was it they could not tell the House of Commons on Monday, although they were able to tell the political agents in the constituency concerned?

I have no knowledge of any information being given to the political agents in the constituency concerned. If that information was conveyed to them, it was premature, because His Majesty's pleasure had not been taken.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how long the House of Commons is going to be used as a stepping-stone to Colonial Governorships?

Business of the House

Whitsuntide Recess

Can the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs tell us anything about the Whitsuntide holidays, and is he aware that a statement has been made in the House of Lords that the House of Commons is going to have a very short holiday? Could he, therefore, put us out of our misery at once?

My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury tells me that he hopes that we will be able to arrange for an adjournment from the Thursday till the Tuesday week, but it appears that his hopes depend upon our good behaviour.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)." — [ Mr. A. Chamberlain. ]

proceeded to collect the voices , and said he thought that the Ayes had it.

The Noes have it.

It appearing to Mr. SPEAKER that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, he accordingly called upon the hon. Members who challenged his decision to rise in their places, and he declared the Ayes had it, seven Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.

On a point of Order. May I ask how it is possible to have the names recorded of those who wish to challenge a Division on the question of exempting Government Business from the Standing Orders of the House?

I beg to move,

The essential question which this Bill asks is, whether the time has not come when local authorities should have the opportunity of drawing upon this great source of national wealth, which is not created by any particular individual, which is the product of the normal and natural development of society; whether, in other words, what is described as the unearned increment in the rent of land, or, as our textbooks have been saying for the last 100 years, the economic rent of land—whether this great block of national wealth, which is not earned by any particular individual, whether the owner of the land or any other person, but which is either a gift of nature or the result of the growing creative work of the whole of society, should not be available for communal purposes through the modification of the rating system. The answer which this Bill gives to that question is that the gifts of nature and the creations of wealth, which are due to the normal, the natural, the expanding nature of our modern industrial life, the building up of our national life, should become an optional feature, at all events, in the rating system of the local authorities of the country.

The Minister of Health introduced last week a Bill for the simplification of the rating system of the country, and I think hon. Members on all sides of the House agreed that simplification was long overdue, and that it was a sound and sensible development. I want to submit that the source of local taxation, the remedying and modification of the source, and the incidence of local rates, are a problem which is as much overdue for reform as the question of the simplicity of structure which is included in the present Government Bill. We all know that, from the point of view of business, the problem of local rating is the most serious which confronts the nation. The burden of local rates on industry of every kind, railways, the cotton industry, the woollen industry, the iron and steel industry and the shipbuilding industry, forms one of the most serious burdens with which they have to deal at the present time. What this Bill says to the business man, whether he is engaged on a large scale or a small scale, whether he is a petty shopkeeper or is running a business involving thousands of men, is that it is possible, by opening up the method of taxing land values, to relieve the burden of rating which falls to-day upon all manner of improvements which are effected in business life.

The ordinary householder finds it exceedingly difficult to meet the rates today. The rate is put upon the house itself. There are thousands of young people who not only cannot get houses to enable them to marry, but cannot even afford to maintain a house after marriage, because of the excessive rating burdens. This Bill says to all the ordinary private householders of the country that there is an alternative method of finding the rates which are necessary for local purposes. From the point of view of the actual, positive work of local authorities, such as house building, all Members of the House know how impossible it is to get ahead of that problem because of the strangle-hold upon the land, due to the rating system, and due to the cost of buying the land. The distinction in rating based on the present use of land as compared with what the land actually sells for in the market, constitutes a first-class problem itself. This matter is not new to hon. Members. It is 40 years since the Royal Commission was appointed to consider the building of houses for the working-classes. That Commission reported on these problems along the lines embodied in the provisions of this Bill. I will read an extract from that report of the Royal Commission of 1885:

I rise to oppose the introduction of this Bill. I do so on two separate grounds. The first is that

by the experience of what is commonly called Mr. Lloyd George's Budget of 1909, this particular proposal has been proved to be absolutely unworkable, and to the serious detriment or the housing problem in this country. So much has it proved to be detrimental to building that, when it was proposed several years ago that it should be knocked on the head completely, the author of the Act itself offered no objection, and, as a matter of fact, it was carried through by his own Government. It therefore seems to me that that is one particular point in which this scheme fails. I also think that the sort of local option that is given under this particular Bill is detrimental altogether to what I may call the civil service of the country. It does seem to me that a departure from the usual system of rating such as this tries to be should be in a measure brought forward by the responsible Government of the day, and not introduced by a side wind in this way by a private Member. The next point upon which I oppose the Bill is this: It seems to me that, when a large Measure of valuation and rating is being brought forward by the Minister of Health and is going through the House at the present time, if the good Gentleman opposite wants to bring his Bill forward, or suggest amendment, there will be a very good opportunity for him to do so. On these two grounds: First, that the procedure suggested has already been tried and proved an abject failure, and, secondly, on the ground that a Bill is now going through the House dealing with this very question of valuation and rating, I submit that is it inopportune to bring this Bill forward.

Question put,

"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable all local authorities to levy rates upon Land Value."

The House divided: Ayes, 120; Noes. 225.

Division No. 109.]

AYES.

[3.45 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Cluse, W. S.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Compton, Joseph

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

Connolly, M.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Cove, W. G.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Barnes, A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Groves, T.

Batey, Joseph

Dalton, Hugh

Grundy, T. W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Duckworth, John

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Briant, Frank

Forrest, W.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Buchanan, G.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Clowes, S.

Gillett, George M.

Hardle, George D.

Harney, E. A.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Taylor, R. A.

Harris, Percy A.

Owen, Major G.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Hayes, John Henry

Paling, W.

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Thurtle, E.

Hirst, G. H.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Potts, John S.

Viant, S. P.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Radford, E. A.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Warne, G. H.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Riley, Ben

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Ritson, J.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Welsh, J. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Rose, Frank H.

Westwood, J.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Kennedy, T.

Scrymgeour, E.

Whiteley, W.

Kirkwood, D.

Scurr, John

Wignall, James

Lansbury, George

Sexton, James

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Lawson, John James

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Lee, F.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Livingstone, A. M.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Lowth, T.

Sitch, Charles H.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Lunn, William

Smillie, Robert

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Windsor, Walter

Mackinder, W.

Snell, Harry

Wright, W.

March, S.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

Maxton, James

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Montague, Frederick

Stephen, Campbell

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Morris, R. H.

Sutton, J. E.

Mr. Rennie Smith and Mr. Beckett.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Albery, Irving James

Crook, C. W.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Herbert, S. (York. N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Holland, Sir Arthur

Astor, Viscountess

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Balniel, Lord

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Dawson, Sir Philip

Hurd, Percy A.

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Jacob, A. E.

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Berry, Sir George

Elveden, Viscount

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Bethell, A.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Lamb, J. O.

Blundell, F. N.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Fielden, E. B.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Finburgh, S.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Brass, Captain W.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Loder, J. de V.

Briggs, J. Harold

Frece, Sir Walter de

Looker, Herbert William

Briscoe, Richard George

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Brittain, Sir Harry

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Lumley, L. R.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Ganzoni, Sir John

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Gates, Percy

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

MacIntyre, Ian

Bullock, Captain M.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

McLean, Major A.

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Macnaghten. Hon. Sir Malcolm

Burman, J. B.

Goff, Sir Park

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Grace, John

Malone, Major P. B.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Grant, J. A.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Margesson, Captain D.

Caine, Gordon Hall

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Marriott. Sir J. A. R.

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Gretton, Colonel John

Meyer, Sir Frank

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Grotrian, H. Brent

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A. (Birm. W.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Chapman, Sir S.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hammersley, S. S.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Clarry, Reginald George

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hartington, Marquess of

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Murchison, C. K.

Cope, Major William

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Couper, J. B.

Haslam, Henry C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Nield, Rt Hon. Sir Herbert

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Nuttall, Ellis

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Oakley, T.

Shepperson, E. W.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Pennefather, Sir John

Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfst)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Watts, Dr. T.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Wells. S. R.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Smithers, Waldron

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Centrl.)

Preston, William

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Price, Major C. W. M.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Raine, W.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Wise, Sir Fredric

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Womersley, W. J.

Remnant, Sir James

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

Rentoul, G. S.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Templeton, W. P.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Salmon, Major I.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Sandon, Lord

Waddington, R.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Sir Thomas Davies and Commander Williams.

Savery, S. S.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,

Imperial Institute Bill, without Amendment.

Burgess Hill Water Bill,

Agricultural Returns Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Uckfield Gas and Electricity Company." [Uckfield Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Southern Railway Company to construct works and acquire lands; to extend the time for the completion of certain works and for the compulsory purchase of certain lands; to abandon certain authorised works; to transfer to the said company the undertaking of the East London Railway Company; and for other purposes." [Southern Railway Bill [ Lords. ] Uckfield Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords ], Southern Railway Bill [ Lords ],

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Agricultural Returns Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 183.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee A

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Cadogan; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Lamb.

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Rating and Valuation Bill): Sir Frederick Rice; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Rhys.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

HORLEY DISTRICT GAS COMPANY (ELECTRICITY SUPPLY) BILL [Lords]

Reported [Preamble not proved]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Nationalisation of Mines and Minerals Bill

Order for Second Reading upon Friday read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

Standing Orders

Resolutions reported from the Select Committee;

Resolutions agreed to.

Orders of the Day

Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

I beg to move, that are necessary in order to pay the pensions under this Bill there shall be taken the sum of £4,000,000 fact, they will receive three and a-half times as much benefit, and will toe free from any of the conditions which now prevail regulating the payment of sickness and unemployment insurance.

The second paragraph of the Resolution deals chiefly with the necessary contributions which have to be made under Clause 16 of the Bill, so far as members of the naval, military and air forces are concerned. Under Clause 16 it is suggested that the provisions of this Act shall apply to persons in the service of the Crown, in the same manner and to the same extent as does the Insurance Act, and that out of moneys provided by Parliament for the Navy, Army and Air Force services there shall be paid by the Admiralty, the Army Council and the Air Force, respectively, the contributions mentioned in the Clause. In that connection I may also say, with regard to certain questions which have been addressed to the Department, that by that means all the men who are in the Army, Navy or Air Force will ultimately be able to come in to the provisions of this Bill.

Will the members of the Forces have to pay fourpence a week, the same as other workers?

4.0 P.M.

That is a matter which is now being considered by the respective Departments. Under paragraph ( c ) of the Resolution provision is made for the payment of the old age pensions under the Old Age Pensions Acts, and particulars of those are contained in columns 3 and 4 of Table VIII. In that respect, I should like to call the attention of the Committee to the amounts which have to be paid under the existing law and those which have to be paid under the provisions of this Bill. The amounts which have to be paid under the existing law for old age pensions are certainly very striking, and I think they were overlooked by the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) when he supplied his statement to the ex-Minister of Health the other day. It will be seen that under the existing law, in the year 1925–26, a sum of no less than £27,000,000 has to be paid in respect of present old age pensions, and it grows, taking the year 1935–36, to £36,000,000, and taking the year 1965–66, to £56,000,000. That has to be paid on account of old age pensions alone under the existing statutes. That at any rate is one of the reasons why it is not possible under the proposals now being made to increase the benefits under this Bill. It is undoubtedly an extraordinary set of figures.

I gave two figures showing that the amount rose from £27,000,000 in 1925 to £36,000,000 in 1935, and to £56,000,000 in 1965, and I was venturing to say that that, of course, is why bigger benefits cannot be given under the present scheme. So far as the provisions under this Financial Resolution are concerned, I would like to refer the Committee to column 4 of Table VIII, where they will see that in the year 1926 the cost is nearly £2,000,000, and in 1935, again taking that year, the figure rises to over £4,500,000, and in the year 1965 to over £7,500,000. I should like, reverting to column 3, to say that some questions were put yesterday which rather indicated that existing old age pensioners would be in a somewhat worse position than they are at the present time. The real position, of course, is that old age pensioners who are not insured persons, and who therefore would not come within the provisions of this Bill, will certainly be in no worse position, while all those old age pensioners, who are aged 70 to-day, and are in receipt of medical benefit, will be in a much stronger and better position, because, as most hon. Members know, all those old age pensioners to-day have their pensions subject to review. I know full well that when I was chairman of the Old Age Pensions Committee in London it was the practice to review the circumstances of all these old age pensioners at least once in every year or two years, and it was a source of considerable anxiety to a very large number of them to go through a catechism as to what they were doing, what their means were, and whether they were in employment or not. So far as all those people are concerned, they can rest assured that there will be no further interference with their pensions, and that they will get them without inquiry and with certainty in the future.

This matter has really disturbed a large number of people, and I am glad the hon. Member is explaining it. Will he indicate clearly that people who are presently in receipt of old age pensions will in future have no trouble so far as the means inquiries are concerned?

Yes, I hope that I have made that clear. There are two categories of old age pensioners. Those who come within the provisions of this Bill, and have what is called an insurance status—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—and those who do not. I do not know why hon. Gentlemen object to that, because those old age pensioners who do not come within the scope of this Bill will at any rate be in the same position as they are to-day, while a very large number—I could not say the number, but a very considerable number—who to-day are receiving medical benefit as insured persons under the National Health Insurance Act will receive their pensions without any question.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether those over 70 in receipt of pensions and not insured are to be subject to the means investigations?

If a person who formerly was under the National Health Insurance Act becomes an old age pensioner, will he cease to be insured, and is he included?

That person would not cease to be insured within the meaning of the National Health Insurance Act. Of course, medical benefit would still be afforded to him, and those old age pensioners who get that assistance and who are still within the technical limit of the National Health Insurance Act would get their pensions without any further—

I hope at any rate, that I have made that matter clear; if not, perhaps hon. Members will express any difficulties that they have later in the Debate. I now turn to the fourth matter mentioned in the Financial Resolution. It provides for the administrative expenses of the Bill. That figure will be found in Table VI, column 4, and it will be seen that for the first year—which is a portion of a year—the expenses of the scheme will be £300,000, and that thereafter the administrative costs will be £500,000 per year. That represents, in the first 10 years, about 2 per cent. per annum of the contributions receivable, which I venture to say, as it is an inclusive figure, is a very small amount indeed. I should like, briefly, to indicate the position so far as the administration of this scheme is concerned, and of course to account for the cost of £500,000 per annum. In the first place, as has already been stated, this scheme has the advantage that it becomes part of the National Health Insurance scheme, a very big and effective instrument set up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in 1911. Since he set up that machine, it has had the experience of 11 years in dealing certainly with very many difficult matters, and I think it will be said to-day—at any rate my own experience in my own constituency tells me so—that very few difficulties arise. Compare the number of questions which arose in 1912 with the number to-day: one would say that it is a very excellent testimony to the machine which my right hon. Friend set up in 1911. I venture to say that many of the difficulties which are confronting the Committee to-day in connection with this scheme will, as time goes by, be satisfactorily cleared up, and that matters will be much better than is anticipated at the present time. Therefore, so far as our central machinery is concerned, we shall naturally use the Health Department. If a choice were to be made, it would lie between the Unemployment Department and the Health Department, and I think Members of the Committee will, at any rate, agree that a wise and proper choice has been made in trusting the central administration of this scheme to the Health Department. The Health Department will have to decide and to make the awards. I observe that the other day my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, at the National Liberal Club, said that he thought this scheme was rather bureaucratic. I am sure he will appreciate that it is a very different matter making awards under this scheme than under National Health Insurance. Under the National Health Insurance Act in order that a man—

I ought to warn the hon. Gentleman that he can hardly go into the administrative and machinery part of the Bill on this Resolution, though, of course, anything relative to finance can be given.

I will certainly follow that rule. I only want to show, in accounting for this £500,000 of money, that it is a fair estimate, and one that is not likely to be exceeded. I account for that, so far as the central department is concerned, by saying that their duties will certainly not be so heavy as those in connection with National Health Insurance. Practically all you have to do in deciding whether to award a pension or not under this provision is to produce probably a certificate of death, or a certificate of age, as the case may be in connection with widows or orphans, and also a certificate, which will, I hope, be afforded by the approved societies, showing the entitlement so far as National Health Insurance is concerned. Therefore, the duties at headquarters are not of the same character, and nothing like as difficult, as they naturally are under Health Insurance. It should also be said in that connection that, thanks to the scheme inaugurated in 1911, they have at headquarters records practically of every insured person in the country at this moment.

Secondly, the money that has to be spent, so far as investigations are concerned, includes payments to the approved societies for the work that they will do in connection with the scheme. I have had several questions addressed to me as to the position of approved societies and exactly what payments will be made to them. In this sum of £500,000 which will be expended each year will be included the amounts which will be paid to the societies for the work which we are asking them to perform. It will be extended and perhaps numerous operations, at any rate at first, and it is to procure for the central department the certificates of entitlement for insurance. As the Committee knows, there are. various conditions—I do not think of a difficult nature—laid down in this Bill before certain widows at any rate can receive certain payments. They have to prove whether the husband had been in insurance or not, how long he had been in and how many contributions had been paid. In that connection, we shall go to the great approved societies of the country, and I think I can say, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, that we welcome very much the attitude which the societies have adopted in this matter. As I understand them, they say, "While we would like to administer this scheme as fully as we can, we want to do it to the advantage of the State; but we are quite prepared to accept the decision of the House as to where our duties shall begin and where they shall end." We think, anxious as we are to take advantage of the experience of these societies when we obtain the certificates to which I have referred, very little remains except to make the awards when they have been scrutinised by the Department. Referees will be set up under this Bill to review the decisions which may be given by the Minister of Health. In Clause 28 of the Bill hon. Members will observe it is provided that National Health Insurance Act itself. I observed the other day that the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) was rather critical as to the power of the Minister to deprive widows of their pensions. I would like to point out that under the provisions of this Bill any award which may be made by the Minister of Health is subject to an appeal to an independent tribunal where the widow will have a full opportunity, as insured persons have under the national health insurance scheme, of going before these referees and having their cases properly and fully heard.

Is it contemplated that the widow shall be heard before the Minister takes away the pension, because there is nothing in the Bill to provide that the widow shall be heard.

Any regulations appointing Boards of Referees up and down the country will have to come before this House and be approved by this House, and therefore I do not think the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough will have any difficulty in reviewing the regulations put forward. Obviously the widow will have the same personal right of appeal as under the National Health Insurance Act, against which no criticism has been advanced. Therefore, these people in their own locality will have an opportunity of having their cases heard. I want to make one slight correction. I think the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough has stated elsewhere that the Minister has power to deprive a widow of her pension if she is convicted of a certain offence. The Clause provides that this can be done only in the case when the Court itself reports to the Minister that such a drastic step should be taken, and even then my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health need not deprive the widow of her pension unless he thinks it is justified by the circumstances. I want to point out that this can only be done on the initiation of the Court itself, and it is only then that such a course could be taken. No doubt the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough can conceive a certain class of case where a course of that kind would be followed, but it would be a very rare case in which the Court, when convicting a woman, would send on a report to the Minister of Health to say that she should be deprived of her pension. In a case where a woman has been convicted of a certain offence that course might be followed.

The point was that it was previosuly stated that the Bill gives the Minister full power to deprive a widow of her pension. In such a case is it contemplated that she shall live on the child's pension, because it is possible for a woman to be convicted of quite serious offences which have nothing to do with her fitness as a mother?

My own experience of the Courts is that they very rarely make recommendations of that kind. I have known cases where soldiers have been convicted, and the magistrate has expressed the hope that the conviction will not affect the man's career in the Army or his pension. It is only in very serious cases that this course would have to be adopted. Nevertheless, it is necessary to have that provision in the Bill, and I need not indicate a certain class of case, because in such cases hon. Members, I am sure, will agree that a power of that kind is necessary. Under the financial provision we are making, a widow would have the right of appeal to these independent referees, and I think the Committee will agree that this is a very useful and desirable provision to make.

I want to say a word or two about the position of local authorities. Members of the Committee will no doubt recollect that Clause of the Bill which suggests that local authorities should carry out certain duties in connection with the scheme. We expect a trifling expense will be involved in this respect, but I would point out that we expect that small expense to be met by them. It will mean no new machinery, and what we particularly want to do is to have regard to the interests of the children. That is one of the things which we must constantly keep before us, and instead of employing all sorts of people to make inquiries as to how children are living or whether the mothers are caring for them properly or not, we think the best people to carry out these duties are the numerous maternity and child welfare committees who have the assistance of people who can be said to be sympathetic in regard to this question. We would also have the assistance of the school attendance officers who go into the homes and visit these people. We want to avail ourselves of the services of all these people. When certain information is wanted, of course, application will be made to approved societies who have the records.

I hope the Committee, after this explanation, will appreciate that we have done our best to supply machinery which we hope will be efficient and also sympathetic. We recognise the claims of the approved societies, and we want to avail ourselves also of the services of all those voluntary bodies who have done so much in regard to maternity and child welfare work. Directly the scheme has passed this House arrangements will be made by which all the local offices of the Ministry of Health and other Departments concerned will be open daily from the beginning of October to enable applicants for pensions to attend and receive assistance in putting forward their claims. I daresay many hon. Members have had a large amount of correspondence already as to how widows are to obtain their pensions. I may say that we shall endeavour in every possible way to give them adequate assistance by the means I have indicated and others in order that they will have no difficulty in being supplied with the necessary information in this connection. Those are the four items mentioned in the Resolution, and I think from that aspect I have given a satisfactory account without raising any of the controversial issues which may be involved. I cannot disguise the fact that, when this Resolution is passed, the finances of the scheme will practically be settled so far as the various contributions are concerned.

I notice on the Paper an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) and others in which he desires to take a certain course in regard to this Resolution which I am afraid I do not quite properly appreciate, but no doubt that is my own fault. It would, however, appear if this Amendment is carried and there is no further financial provision made after 1927, as the hon. Member seeks to lay down, that our fund would be bankrupt in the year 1932, because we should be left without any State contribution at all, and we should have to rely for the payment of widows' pensions and old age pensions on the amount of money we received from the insured people themselves. It may be that the hon. Member desires to raise, as I understand other hon. Members do, the question of a contributory or a non-contributory scheme. I also understand that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) desires to take up that point. On that question, I can only add a few words to the statement made during the last two days in debate.

I must say I have been rather puzzled at the attitude of both parties who oppose us in this matter. I remember very well that in the last House a very well known Member of the Liberal party, one of the chief exponents of National Health Insurance, and a very able exponent—Mr. Masterman—gave notice that he was about to present to the House a Bill dealing with widows' pensions, and I do not think anyone on the Liberal Benches will dispute that that Bill was on a contributory basis. I read an article by Mr. Masterman only a few days ago, when he explained that the only reason why that Bill was not presented by the Liberal party was that contributions would have to be made by the State, and that, therefore, under our Rules and Regulations, the procedure would be somewhat difficult. It is, therefore, rather extraordinary, at any rate to me, that only a few months after the Liberal party had come, as I understand, to a unanimous conclusion to present a Bill of that kind, at any rate a section of them say that this Bill should not be on a contributory basis at all. If I might address myself to hon. Members on the Labour Benches, I must remind them that only during the last few months they have given, I think, a great deal of approval to various contributory schemes, in connection, for instance, with local government officers. I remember that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham)—

I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I should like to ask him whether that was not the result of a ballot taken amongst the officers?

I should say so. The officers preferred it, and I know that it had the approval of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh.

At any rate, as I understand it, and I have ventured to look at the Debate, it received the approval of the right hon. Gentleman on the ground that it was a contributory scheme. In conclusion I should like, if I may, to quote what I think is about one of the best presentments of the arguments for a contributory as against a non-contributory scheme which I have read for some time. It is a statement that was made some time ago, when National Insurance was under consideration, and when the arguments in favour of a contributory versus a non-contributory scheme were put forward. It is as follows:

"I was only the other day concerned for my own constituency, and looked up an article I wrote 15 years ago on this very subject, in which I discussed the problem of a contributory versus non-contributory scheme, and I was delighted to find that I was of the same opinion as I am now—that a contributory scheme is the soundest scheme and the best scheme from the economic point of view, and those of us who are consistent Socialists are bound to support it as opposed to a non-contributory scheme." It goes on:

"I have said I am in favour of the contributory scheme. That means I am in favour of insurance, for to talk about State insurance without contributions is simply to talk nonsense. The very word ' insurance ' implies a contribution, not a gift, nor a grant nor a dole, but a contribution proportionate to the risk which is covered by the insurance."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1911; col. 1442, Vol. 27.]

That was the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition when he spoke when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) brought in his contributory scheme on the 6th July, 1911. But I suppose times have changed—

A pensions scheme is rather different from contributory insurance. We deny that the pension scheme should be an insurance scheme.

I was hoping I should hear some observation of that kind. Perhaps, later on, the hon. Gentleman who speaks for the Opposition will tell us how he distinguishes this scheme, so far as insurance is concerned, from the National Health Insurance scheme. Perhaps he will tell us whether the Labour party are in favour of making that a non-contributory scheme. It seems to me, at any rate, so far as logic is concerned, that in principle there is no difference between the two. Every person who has had any responsibility in this matter, whether it has been my right hon. Friend or the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has had to bring in a scheme and to take responsibility for it, or whether it has been the Liberal party when they were prepared to introduce a Bill, they all came to the conclusion that the only feasible and practical way at the present time to give immediate benefit to people who so sorely need it in this country, is to bring in a scheme on the lines indicated in this Bill. For all these reasons, I venture to suggest to the Committee that so far, at any rate, as that aspect is concerned, it is the only practical course that anyone who has to take responsibility in this matter can recommend to the House.

This Financial Resolution leads me to make some brief general observations arising out of the principles embodied in it. I do not intend to take up the time of the Committee in pursuing the red herrings which have been dangled before us by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. I am not going to discuss the National Health Insurance Act or the Unemployment Insurance Act this afternoon, but perhaps I might be allowed to make one observation on the contributory principle, which is that it was originally, I believe, a German invention. It was invented by Bismarck in the hope of stemming the advance of German Socialism, and it was imported into this country second-hand by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in 1911. Whether or not it is a good principle in regard to Health or Unemployment Insurance I do not propose to discuss. What I am concerned with is whether it is a good principle for widows' pensions, orphans' pensions and old age pensions, which is the only question that is now before us. So far as the Government are concerned, they have adopted the non-contributory principle for the present year, because they are contributing nothing under this Financial Resolution until the year 1927, and they only contemplate a sum of £4,000,000, which is less than 1d. on the Income Tax, for each of the nine succeed- ing years. Therefore, for the next 11 years their contribution tots up to £40,000,000 in all, or less than the sum which has been thrown away by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in relieving Income Tax payers and Super-tax payers in one year. There is an element of the non-contributory even in their scheme.

If I may follow the contributory principle after its introduction by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in 1911, it has become one of those fiscal shibboleths, as they are sometimes called by our opponents in other connections, rather like the word "Mesopotamia," which had such a soothing effect upon the mind of the old lady, and has even upon the minds of some ladies, like the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), whom one would not call old. They seem to imagine that there is something moral, something soothing about the contributory principle. Yesterday afternoon, the Noble Lady who represents the Sutton Division of Plymouth was defending this contributory principle on the ground that otherwise there would be a danger of people getting something for nothing. I could not help thinking that her mind was not dwelling so much on this as on the millionaire who is going to get £40 a week extra under the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposals. That has been worked out, not by actuaries—whenever we make statements about figures we are always faced with questions about actuaries—but it has been worked out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, in his most interesting table, which I am sure we shall all study continuously for the next few months, regarding the effect of the changes in taxation on various grades of income. The millionaire gets an additional £40 a week—

These observations will be very relevant next week on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, but they are not in order on this Resolution.

I must apologise if I have been led after, at any rate, one of the red herrings against which I have endeavoured to guard my steps. So far as the contributory principle is concerned in regard to pensions, there is no danger of these people getting some- thing for nothing, as the Noble Lady imagined yesterday. So long as we maintain the taxation on sugar and tea, on beer, on tobacco, on silk stockings, which are now threatened, and even lace curtains, which are no longer safe—if we may judge from the Press—so long as we maintain these taxes upon the people who are going to receive these miserable pittances under this Bill, so long will they contribute a good deal more, in many cases, than they will receive, and the Noble Lady may sleep easily, so far as their morals are concerned. They will not be demoralised by receiving more than they give.

It is sometimes said that the reason for adopting a contributory scheme is that the country can afford it more easily. I have never been able to follow that argument. The money has to be got from somewhere. Even if you collect a contribution, it has still to be contributed, or, if you call it a tax, it has to be paid. The only question, it has always seemed to me, is whether it is more convenient or better and sounder finance to pay for these things out of general taxation, which you can adjust to individual ability to pay, or whether it is better to raise the money by two particularly objectionable taxes, namely, a poll tax on wage-earners on the one hand, and a tax on employment and industry on the other. In my judgment these two forms of taxation are about the worst that can be adopted. So far as industry is concerned, I need not gild the lily; I need not add anything to the very eloquent appeals from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) on the Conservative Benches, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) on the Liberal Benches. Both of them are, naturally, keenly concerned for the employer in the first instance, and. no doubt, in the second place, for the rest of the community, and they made an exceedingly powerful case yesterday against the imposition of this contribution on the employers. I agree with them. I also consider that an exceedingly strong case can be made against any further deductions from the wages of the workers. Poll taxes are employed in some of our native dependencies—on the native inhabitants of Kenya, for example—but in great civilised countries they have long been given up as unscientific and unsatisfactory methods of raising revenue. It has been left to the present Government to reintroduce them.

A further argument was used yesterday by the Secretary of State for War in favour of the contributary principle. He said that the money was easier to collect in this way than through general taxation. That, again, I entirely fail to follow. I have always been of the opinion, and I think it is well borne out by the facts that, even if there be other arguments in favour of working Health Insurance and Unemployment Insurance by means of stamps, it is a costly and troublesome way of doing it; there are all sorts of additional expenses thrown upon approved societies, and it seems to me quite clear that it is very much cheaper and easier to collect a few large sums of money, as it is possible to do from Super-tax payers and large estates, than to go round collecting twopences and threepences in their millions from a large number of people. On the ground of administrative convenience and cheapness of collection, it seems to me that there is very little to be said for the contributory principle. There is a supposed difficulty, as I have said, in finding the money for financing this scheme even on a contributory basis, and ,in view of the fact that some figures which were originally drawn up by me have been quoted more than once in the Debate, I would ask the leave of the Committee to refer to them for a moment.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), in his very powerful indictment of this scheme on Monday, quoted quite correctly—although he was subsequently misrepresented by the Attorney - General in yesterday's Debate—the figures which I had originally drawn up. In reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), who is a very serious and effective student of finance—than whom indeed there is no more serious student of finance in the party opposite, even on the Front Bench—whether these figures have been submitted to an actuary, the answer is that they are all taken, with one exception, from the Government Actuary's Report on this Bill. Therefore they have all com straight from the actuary's mouth. The one exception is with regard to the cost of widows' pensions at double rates. The Attorney-General yesterday said he had submitted an estimate of what it would cost to give widows, children and orphans pensions at double rates not merely to an actuary. He had gone further than that. That is apparently all that the Government had done in the first instance. His figures, he said, were worked out by "careful actuaries," and at the end of a certain time he found they worked out to some figure or other. I went to work rather more shortly. I simply multiplied the Government Actuary's figures by two. It is on that basis that the figures quoted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) were made up. That, I can assure the hon. Gentleman, is the only departure from the Government Actuary's Report.

The figures I submitted are constructed in a very simple way. Anyone can work it out for himself, assuming he can multiply by two. All I have done is, first of all, to take widows' pensions at double the rates, and that does not even bring them up to the Royal Warrant figures. I am not suggesting that double the rates would be adequate. I do not think they would—which only shows how grossly inadequate the provisions of this Bill are. But still, doubling the rate, you get a certain figure which you can get from the Government Actuary's Report. Add the cost of old age pensions between 65 and 70, add the additional cost due be the Bill for old age pensions over 70, and that gives you the gross cost as the result of the Bill. I did not put in, I hasten to assure the hon. Gentleman, the cost of existing old age pensions over 70, subject to all the means limits which now exist, because they are non-contributory at present. I am not assuming that these are going to be made contributory at once. If I understand the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they are going gradually to become contributory in 50 or 60 years' time. I thought we had got enough evils to deal with to-day without flying to evils that we know not of, and which will only come about when most of us will be elsewhere. Therefore, I have not included those figures, and it would not be reasonable to include them in considering the additional net cost on the Exchequer of making these additional pensions and allowances non-contributory. I should not think of including the cost of old age pensions on the present basis. I have included the cost of such additional old age pensions as are offered by this Bill.

Those three items give you a certain gross cost which rises from £22,000,000 in 1926–27 up to £66,000,000 in 1936–37. Then there are deductions. There is, first of all, the saving on health and unemployment insurance in respect of those between 65 and 70 who are now going to get the old age pension. Second, and much more important, there is the saving on war pensions. I might not on my own initiative have introduced that, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech made it the coping-stone of the whole edifice. Surely we are entitled to follow him. There was a long rhetorical passage about the fertilising blood of the dead, and I know not what. It was all designed to show that we could afford to pay a little more to these widows and orphans now, because gradually the heroes of the Great War would be passing over to the other side. Therefore I make no apology for including that deduction—a very important one. When you bring in that saving on war pensions year by year, again taken from the Government Actuary's Report, as compared with 1925–26, you find that it mounts up from £3,000,000 in 1926–27 to a total of £25,000,000 in 1936-37 and £57,000,000, "far on in summers that we shall not see," in 1965–66. It is always interesting to look forward with the eye of faith, but I am only interested in the figures for the next 10 years so far as this problem is concerned. When you have made that deduction, you get the net cost of making this scheme non-contributory, and that rises from £21,000,000 in 1926–27 to £39,000,000 in 1936–37.

But that is not all, because this scheme is not from the point of view of the Government a wholly non-contributory scheme. It is true they are not paying up in this year, but in this Resolution they offer to pay a little in future years. You are, therefore, entitled to deduct the Exchequer contribution as provided in the Bill from this net cost in order to find the additional net cost of making this scheme wholly non-contributory. That Exchequer contribution rises to some £11,000,000 in 1936–7, and the net result of the whole thing is that this additional net cost, which is the figure we have to consider, fluctuates between £21,000,000 in 1926–7 and £28,000,000 in 1936–7. It rises very slowly and it only gets up to £37,000,000 in 1956. These are the figures which you have to compare with the £42,000,000 of revenue thrown to the wolves by the Chancellor of the Exchequer by his reduction of 6d. in the standard rate of Income Tax and his reduction of Super-tax. I do not include there the revenue sacrificed by the Chancellor in increasing the earned income allowance. That is one of the few white spots on a black budget.

I should not have gone into these figures but for the fact that they were quoted in my absence, when I was not able to say anything about them. The net effect of the whole thing is that the additional cost of making this scheme non-contributory and of doubling the rates for the widows, children and orphans, amounts to little more than half the revenue sacrificed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Super-tax, and the reduction of 6d. off the standard rate. If those taxes had been kept on, as in my opinion they should have been, and the Budget in other respects had been the same from the revenue point of view, the position would have been that you could have had the whole of this business non-contributory, you could have doubled the widows' and orphans' rate, begun paying your new old-age pensions next year instead of waiting till 1928, and you would still have had some £15,000,000 a year in hand. That you could have used in a number of ways which I do not propose to go into in detail, beyond saying that there would be scope with £15,000,000 a year for many extensions of benefit, for introducing men's disabilities benefits, for bringing in a number of widows and children who are at present outside, and so on. The whole thing could have been done as easily as falling off a log if only the Chancellor had kept his hand on that money. That is the long and short of the finance of the non-contributory scheme. I am quite unable to understand how it can be contended, in the light of those figures, that there is any difficulty in financing this scheme either this year or next year or for many years to come.

This scheme definitely worsens the whole of our scheme of taxation. You are definitely imposing very heavy burdens, one direct upon the wage earners, and the other direct upon employers of labour, which will in some cases be shifted on to the wage-earners, as in the case of our friends from the coalfields, who are going to pay not 4d., but 7½d.; in other cases it will be shifted on to the consumer, and in others it will take shape in increased unemployment. In order to enable this scheme to be started on this thoroughly rotten and bad foundation, you have thrown away those sources of revenue which would have stood you in exceedingly good stead. As compared with these most objectionable forms of new taxation I have referred to, the Income Tax and the Super-tax are almost perfect fiscal instruments. Even the employers of labour are saying that now. Many of them would much have preferred to forego the reduction of Income Tax to having to bear these increased burdens thrown upon them by the Minister of Health. It would have been possible to create a scheme which would have distributed benefit according to need, and which would have laid the burden upon those best able to bear it. I believe had the Labour Government still been in office they would have done that.

I am not going to indulge in any of the attempted thought reading which has been a feature of this Debate so far After all, I have this advantage as a private Member who has only recently entered the House of Commons, that I am not responsible even for anything done by the Labour Government in the last Parliament. But whether or not that would have been done by them, it would have been done by a wise Government, if we had been fortunate enough to possess one. Instead, we have a scheme which does not distribute benefits according to need, which offers mean and niggardly benefits, which withholds benefits altogether from a great many people who are in great need. So far as the burdens are concerned, taken in conjunction with the rest of the Budget, what it does is to lift burdens off the shoulders of those very well able to bear them and throw them upon the shoulders of the weak. For that reason, we have not yet come to the en3 of the controversy, and in the future the arguments which we have used in this Debate will be more widely appreciated than they have been hitherto and we shall be able to take steps to mould this scheme in the future more in the direction of the principles I have attempted to enunciate.

I listened with very great pleasure to the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Dalton), but I really do not think it is an easy task for anyone who stands up in the House to advocate that these pensions should be put on a non-contributory basis, to make a case without almost following seriatum all the points he has so ably made. I voted for the Bill last night because I thought that by so doing we established the principle that the money was there. People sometimes say you cannot give widows pensions because the money is not there, but the fact that the Bill was introduced shows that the money is there, and the only question we have to decide is who is going to find the money to put into the pockets of the widows and orphans under the scheme. There has been talk about the difference between a contributory and a non-contributory system. I do not think there is so much difference as people pretend. I heard an hon. Member the other night explain that the workers paid all the taxes, and indeed there is a tendency for the weight of taxation to sink, like a sediment, to the bottom on to those least able to bear it. I am not quite sure about the Minister of Health, but the zeal of the Under-Secretary for a contributory system is a new feature. He and his party voted officially against the Third Reading of the contributory National Health Insurance scheme in 1911.

At any rate I gave a good deal of assistance in connection with that Bill.

5.0 P.M.

I well remember the hon. Gentleman's able contributions to those debates 14 years ago, but I hardly think his sense of party discipline did not lead him into the Lobby in support of the official Amendment against the contributory Bill of 1911. It is not an important point but it shows "other times, other manners." This so-called contribution is a tax, just as much as a tax that is put on a transfer deed or a cheque. It is something that is paid into the Government or the Post Office, for which you receive a token stamp which you surrender into the Treasury Pensions Fund. What- ever you may like to call it, contributory or non-contributory, it is a tax, and the question is who shall pay the tax. That is the whole question we have to decide to-day. We know what the Government scheme is. It is to distribute the tax among those engaged and those employed in industry. As regards the employers, the case has been made out so completely by those competent to speak for the employers that there is nothing that I can say that can add to it. One can summarise it by saying that, first of all, you are taxing the employer for something which has nothing to do with industry. You may tax an employer because there is unemployment. We know that there should be men available to take up work from what is called the pool of labour. That is an incident of our industrial system. But widowhood and orphanhood have nothing to do with industry. They have to do with the normal fate of all at some time, but that bears no relation to the special work of industry.

The second point is, that you are taxing our export trade under this scheme. Many of the trades that have to stand the blast of foreign competition are those that employ the largest numbers of workers. There is a good deal of talk —I remember the Prime Minister was one of the first to raise the question—about shetlered and unsheltered trades. The man who is working in a sheltered trade, be he a builder or a tramway man or some other worker, is always being appealed to to make some sacrifice to help the man who is working in an unsheltered trade, but when the Government have to deal with the problem they have not the least compunction in putting on the unsheltered trades, which have to face severe foreign competition, the bulk of this enormous charge of £10,000,000 a year. The third point, as regards the employer, is that the greatest service a man can render to this country to-day is to find employment for our people. Under this scheme the more men an employer takes on the more he pays, while the more men he discharges the lighter is his burden.

With regard to the worker, it is argued that it necessary that those who are potential beneficiaries shall pay. Many will not draw all the benefits, and many may not draw any benefits at all, but they are, nevertheless, potential beneficiaries, and it is argued, with more force, I admit, that they should be put under contribution. It is said that it is a great thing to let people save money and to manage it themselves. I agree. Much good work is dome by the friendly societies and the trade unions in saving and managing their own funds. I am privileged to attend meetings of many friendly societies, and I recognise that it is a thoroughly good principle, to save money and to manage it yourselves. It is a fraternal obligation, which includes rights and responsibilities.

It is said that you must impose a contribution on the worker, because you must define the class who are going to enjoy the benefit. There is force in that argument, but inasmuch as this benefit is to be paid by those who are insured under the National Health Insurance scheme, the job is done. There is no need to lay a new stamp to do that. There is no force in the argument that for this new purpose it is necessary that a new stamp should be imposed. It is said that you must make a man save for himself. My reply is that these people are already buying stamps. I saw the other day a calculation of deductions from a miner's wage, including deductions which I did not know even existed, because I know very little about the mining industry. There were deductions for Health and Unemployment Insurance, friendly society, and so on. Apart from something charged for rent, the deductions absorbed about 15s. of the man's wage.

These people are already doing that which is so desirable, putting something by for a rainy day, and the Government have to show that it is, not only desirable, but possible to take more from them at the present time. The moralists say that there is the urge of necessity. It is true that the fear of want makes people strive, but there is something which has an equal psychological effect, and that is the despair which paralyses people's efforts. You come across many poor people, and I see many poor people in my constituency, who are sinking down into that condition of despair which paralyses all effort at thrift which they may be inclined to make. The question arises, is the money for this purpose available as a State contribution, on what is a contri- butory basis, namely, the existing stamp, and no more. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) has dealt very fully with that question. There is no Budgetary problem at all. The £42,000,000 that could have been saved was more than sufficient to pay, not only the scale, but more than the scale of benefits provided by the Government in their scheme.

Furthermore, there is the question of the diminution of war pensions. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke on this subject he either meant something or he meant nothing. He left the military metaphor, which is the backbone of nearly all his addresses, and he strayed into what he called the path of fancy. He gave a. picture of a great tree which had grown up in times of stress and strain and national sacrifice, and he said that this tree was to be used to shelter the victims of the casualties of industry. Did that mean anything or did it mean nothing? Was the Chancellor of the Exchequer merely getting what anticipatory credit he could from this scheme, and then disappearing from it? Anyone who examines the table which has been provided will see that the charge which is laid on this country for war pensions is diminishing in a sharp curve, while the charge which is being laid in respect of the benefits under this scheme is rising in a much more gradual curve. In that saving alone there is more than enough to enable the Government to put the cost of this scheme entirely upon the State.

Now I come to my final point. I believe there is a real division of opinion between the two sides of the House on this point. Is it right that the fiscal machinery of the State should be used to equalise the conditions of poverty and riches which we find at either end of the social scale? That is a question that really divides the two sides of the House. I think I am right in saying that the Minister of Health in one of his first speeches in Birmingham described the non-contributory old age pension as rotten in principle. He said that while the insurance scheme was sound in principle, the old age pension scheme was rotten in principle.

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks that an opinion 13 years old must be treated with contempt.

I will quote another authority, Lord Lansdowne. The Upper House put a seven years' limit upon the non-contributory system, and Lord Lansdowne, speaking for his party in regard to the proposal for a pension of 5s. per week to old people of 70 said:

Belonging to the party which introduced non-contributory old age pensions and free education, which differentiated between earned and unearned income, and which introduced, in face of fierce opposition, the Death Duties, I say that there is nothing out of keeping with the traditions of that party in demanding that the benefits for widowhood and orphanhood Should be paid from funds collected from all taxpayers in proportion to their ability to pay. There is growing up among the people a feeling that the present disparities between the rich and the poor are not justified. We have vulgar displays of wealth made by some people. One cannot argue from them, because they are too small to matter; but they are producing a great effect upon people who are in poor circumstances and who are faced with starvation. We see pictures of people flaunting their wealth, and they produce an effect upon poor people. What produces a still greater effect are the returns we see year after year of greater pauperism at the one end and greater wealth at the other. Take the figures before and after the War of the estates that fell due for assessment to Estate Duty. Estates below £100 are practically stationary. Of estates over £10,000 there is an increase from £185,000,000 to £295,000,000. If we take gross income, the small incomes which are exempt represent an increase from £60,000,000 to £70,000,000; while of the gross income of the country assessable to duty, there is an increase from £1,000,000,000 in 1912–13 to £2,900,000,000 in 1922–23. The stick is going thinner at one end and thicker at the other end. I see nothing wrong in our fiscal machinery being used to equalise the burden between rich and poor, and for that reason I and some of my friends have put down an Amendment, which we intend to move, that an instruction be given to the Committee to that effect.

The Resolution before the House is to make provisions for pensions for widows and orphans and persons between the ages of 65 and 70. I rise for the purpose of saying that the provision suggested in not adequate. There would not be a whisper of criticism in the House in regard to the proposed scheme of widows' and mothers' pensions if three conditions were observed—if the system were non-contributory, if it covered all necessitous cases, and if it provided adequate benefits. This scheme does none of these three things, and the reason why it does not do these things is because we are told that there is not sufficient money in the country for the purpose. I contest that assumption. I will, first of all, take the present inadequate scheme as it exists. The Minister of Health told us that in the tenth year if the scheme was non-contributory it would cost £41,000,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that in the tenth year of the operation of the scheme there would be a decline in the cost of War pensions of £24,000,000. If you deduct the £24,000,000 from £41,000,000 you have a net additional burden of £17,000,000 for this scheme as it stands on a non-contributory basis. I submit that £17,000,000 is a mere bagatelle for this country to find by way of additional taxation.

If in 1914, before the War broke out, someone had the gift of looking into the future and had said to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that 11 years after that time, in 1925, this country would have spent over £8,000,000,000 on war expenditure, that it would be financing an annual debt charge of £355,000,000, and an annual pensions charge of £65,000,000, that it would be spending £120,000,000 on armaments, and that the country would be able to bear that burden, such a person would have been laughed out of court, and the financial pundits of the Treasury would have said that it would be utterly impossible for the country to bear such a tremendous burden. The other financial experts in the City of London would have said exactly the same kind of thing, because we must remember that in those days we had a Budget of only £209,000,000, and we thought that that was a tremendous burden to have to bear. But we are here now in 1925, and we have met this capital war charge of over £8,000,000,000, we are finding the annual charge of £335,000,000, we are finding £120,000,000 for armaments, and we are finding £65,000,000 for war pensions. Is it suggested seriously, in view of that wonderful achievement on the part of this country, that there is not enough taxable or revenue-raising capacity in this country for us to be able to anticipate that in 10 years' time we should be able to raise an additional £17,000,000?

The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) pointed out just now that in spite of the tremendous burdens which we have to bear, as a result of the War, this country, so far as the tax- paying classes are concerned, is by no means in a condition of impoverishment, that the rich people of this country are even richer than they were before the War, while the flaunting of wealth, of which the hon. and gallant Member spoke, is much more in evidence to-day, in spite of these heavy burdens, than it was in 1914. Therefore, with that picture in our minds, it is grotesque to suggest that in 10 years' time the country will not be able to bear an additional £17,000,000 taxation to make this scheme non-contributory instead of contributory. I want now to suggest how some of this money could be found. We have not yet exhausted the resources of the Super-tax. Much more money could be raised in this country still.

I am afraid that the hon. Member will be travelling outside the terms of the Motion before the Committee if he proposes to go through the whole of the finances of the country.

I submit this point. This Resolution seeks to provide money for the purpose of paying pensions to widows and orphans and other persons. My contention is that it is not making adequate provision. The sum is not sufficient. I am seeking to show how that sum could be made sufficient, and I submit that by means of using the Super-tax in a much more effective fashion than we are using it now, by means of reducing, as we ought to, this tremendously heavy burden of War debt interest of £355,000,000, by seeking, as we ought to seek, to reduce to a very considerable extent the heavy charges of armament, we shall be able to effect such drastic reductions that the £17,000,000 would be a mere nothing. By the savings which would be effected we could not only finance this present scheme on its existing basis, but we could double the benefits proposed under the scheme, and we could bring into the scheme, as they ought to be, many deserving people who are left out of it.

We ought not to be hoodwinked by the contention that the scheme is of such a narrow restricted nature, and its benefits are so niggardly, because the country is unable to afford the cost of a more comprehensive and generous scheme, and it is not as though the actual cost of the scheme is a complete loss to the country. It has been pointed out on other occasions that a great deal of the money which would be expended on a pensions scheme of this sort would be saved to the country in one way or other, and therefore even the total gross expenditure of a pensions scheme, such as I am suggesting, will be very largely saved, because of economies effected in other directions. I believe that the rules of the House forbid me to go into the details as to how these economies could be effected, and I rather gather that the rules of the House also prevent me from explaining why I think the scheme fails to cover various necessitous cases that ought to be covered. I believe that the rules also prevent me from saying why I consider these benefits so utterly inadequate, but there is no need for me to make the point that these benefits are inadequate. The right hon. Gentleman himself, and the Secretary of State for War have both admitted that the benefits proposed to be conferred under this scheme are not adequate for the purpose, and they have excused themselves for that by saying that the money is not available to make the benefits adequate.

As I cannot go into the other details without probably incurring your censure, I will not trespass on the patience of the Committee any longer, except to make my position clear in a sentence in regard to this pensions scheme. I for one am not going to denounce it as being utterly useless. I am too closely connected with the poor people in this country not to realise that paltry and miserable though the benefits of the scheme are, yet so desperate and so urgent is the need of many poor people that they would welcome even these very meagre benefits. But I will say that this is a disappointingly mean effort to deal with a great human problem. The Government have been confronted with a great task, which ought to have been dealt with in a great manner, and they have dealt with it after the manner of very small-minded men, indeed.

I feel that the most important factor in this scheme is the departure from the principle on which we have had the old age pensions settled for years. That to me is the most striking feature of the whole scheme, because the aged people throughout the country have had the strong impression that even to some extent the party now in power had the inclination to give the aged people that which certainly was anticipated from this side of the House if the Labour party had retained office— a reduction of the age and an increase of the amount of pensions. This scheme means that we have blocked that entirely. We have blighted the hopes of numerous aged people. Hon. Members opposite, as well as we, in the course of the Elections, must have heard, from the old folks themselves and from some of their relatives, of the anxiety that something should be done with respect to old age pensions. These people will be greatly disappointed with the amount granted, and it was a disappointment that those matters were not cleared up last year.

But another, and in a sense an equally striking feature, of the experiment is the continuity of the idea that we are giving a pension when, according to the reasoning of the Parliamentary Secretary, it is a matter of buying an annuity. If a person buys an annuity, what he gets is not a matter of a pension. That point has been dealt with on this side of the Committee already. A pension is that which is given freely, such as, for instance, in the Lord Rodney case, in which over £300,000 was given over a period of 144 years, and finally commuted for a sum of £42,000. Or we have, for instance, the Civil List pensions, in which £100 is about the standard rate allowed to the widows of those who were professional men, and were able to earn very good incomes, but pensions were given because it was said that these men had rendered some particular service in a department of national life, and the widow is given a pension of perhaps £100 or £75. One cannot help comparing the circumstances of these pensions with the elaborate machinery described by the Parliamentary Secretary by which the people who get the enormous sum of ten shillings per week are to be supervised and visited so that if there is any departure from the narrow path, probably in certain cases the pension may be knocked off.

In the case of the Rodney pension there was no inquiry as to how members of that family were conducting themselves. They might have been members of night clubs or associated with the very worst characters in the country, but there was no question of examining them and reporting upon them, and of endangering the pension. We have had general expressions of sympathy with those who are passing through great struggles in their lives. Do not hon. Members think that this is rather an insulting way in which to try to express sympathy? If there are, as unquestionably there are, serious difficulties confronting these people, surely it is necessary that we should follow their circumstances with earnestness and give proof of our anxiety by serving them in the special way that the nation is well able to do. Some striking figures have been given by the hon and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) and by the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle). Numerically, a small number of people are enjoying great incomes. Contrast with their lot the miserable pittances that are available for others. Recall the picture given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he introduced this scheme, of the bedraggled procession of those who were going through distress and strain and anxiety, many of them from the cradle to the grave, and then think of the sums voted for armaments. What do we say that armaments are for? Are they not said to be for home defence? Here you are presumably trying to do something for people who are defenceless.

The situation is appalling. Is it not a fact that at the present moment you are taking away pensions from the dependants of those who suffered in the War because of some divergence from the strict path of morality. Is your moral code to apply only to those who are confronted, in certain features of life, with formidable temptations and circumstances which make it far more difficult for them to follow the path of righteousness and peace? In ordinary insurance questions are not raised as to how people conduct themselves after they have paid their contributions. Such people get what they are entitled to receive. But here you are to have a duplicate system. Prospective pensioners are to be obliged to pay, and at the same time the State is to demand something more than is demanded in the case of those who get pensions for nothing. It strikes me that the Prime Minister must in his heart feel grievously stricken with disappointment. When money is required to prepare for what we must face in the next war, no hon. Member opposite takes exception to any expenditure. I can recall that when money was being voted for armaments, disappointment was expressed by hon. Members opposite that the expenditure was not heavier. For what was that expenditure? For putting any number of people to sleep, so that they would not require any pension at all. There was any amount of money for getting rid of life—life which hon. Members have not given. He alone who gives life will hold us responsible. Instead of following the line of giving with gratitude to those who have suffered in the warfare of industry, instead of showing our appreciation of their ardent devotion, we are following the lines proposed in this scheme. Even those who are receiving what is called the dole have a deep grudge in their hearts against a country which, although so wealthy, can do no more than hand them a mere pittance to keep them in existence.

If everyone acted in proportion to his abilities and facilities, I would match my case against that of the hon. Member any day.

I cannot speak for the Labour party; I can speak only for myself. I am speaking for myself now, and I feel that in the main the Labour movement is expressing what undoubtedly is the heartfelt conviction of most of those who are prospective old age pensioners, namely, that we are now by this Bill cheating them out of what was recognised hitherto as their birthright. The Government are saying to them, "We have got our hands on you, and you will now pay for that which formerly was given to you as some expression of gratitude."

Is it not a fact that in the election manifesto of the Conservative party it was clearly stated that this pension scheme would be on a contributory basis, and on those conditions did we not get the support of the people?

The hon. and gallant Member is talking of widows' pensions. I am at the moment referring to the fact that prospective old age pensioners up to the present time have been guaranteed a free pension at 70 years of age. Now, by working the old age pension scheme in conjunction with this scheme, you will make the prospective old age pensioner pay for what was formerly given to him. That is a retrograde step, and there is no man opposite who does not know that as well as I do. I can well understand that in different circumstances the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with his ability and ingenuity, could have found something different to present to the country. The right hon. Gentleman has now left the Minister of Health to deal with that which has created great disappointment in the country. We can quite understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not wish to have anything to do with the scheme now. The Conservative party has had one of the finest opportunities in its existence. It's action would have been different had it possessed to-day a leader such as it once had in Disraeli. He certainly did give some evidence of such feelings as were expressed last night by an hon. Member who said that he belonged to the Left Wing of the Conservative party.

As to the finding of the money there is no need for figures or argument. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can find any amount of money for any sort of purpose, if it is to meet the requirements of that portion of the community that is marked out for first consideration. This is not a matter of property interest or of commercial interest. The ostensible object in view was to give an uplift to those who had nothing but a dark outlook. The scheme as it has been put before us is not what we had a right to expect. Every man sitting on the benches opposite would resent it if we criticised pension's for royalty or for the aristocracy of the country. The people who are to get the miserable pittance provided under this scheme are to be dragged before a kind of court martial before it can be decided whether they are to receive the full amount of the pittance. The whole thing is a downright insult.

I would not have risen to-day had it not been for some observations which fell from the Attorney-General last night in his concluding remarks—during part of which I was, unfortunately, compelled to be out of the House—and which, I feel, call for some reply from me. Before I enter upon the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I should like to refer to an interjection made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health in response to an inquiry which I addressed to him during my speech. I asked him whether it was not a fact that new entrants of 16 years of age coming into the scheme would, in time, contribute their own old age pensions, and the right hon. Gentleman replied to me:

"They will have provided the pension between 65 and 70 and not the pension after 70."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th May, 1925; col. 279, Vol. 184.]

I cannot reconcile his reply to me with the statement of his actuaries on page 9 of the Actuarial Report. According to that statement the contribution payable by entrants aged 16 in 1926, in addition to providing for the new benefits to the age of 70, will provide about 20 per cent. of the old age pensions to which they will be entitled. In the year 1936 they will provide 55 per cent., in the year 1946, 80 per cent., and in 1956 the whole cost of old age pensions will be provided by their contributions. If that be so, then the scheme—as the hon. Member (Mr. Scrymgeour) who has just spoken remarked—is really destroying for the time to come the gratuitous old age pensions which now exist.

May I explain to the right hon. Gentleman? I understood his question to be whether those who now entered the insurance scheme at the age of 16 would contribute to the cost of benefits which they would have been entitled to receive free. To that I answered that the actuarial calculations showed that they would pay for the old age pensions between the ages of 65 and 70, and not the old age pensions after that time. That is absolutely correct. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is relying upon the statement as to the 20 per cent. of the old age pensions.

The right hon. Gentleman has left out the words in the actuary's report, "inclusive of the decennial increases." The 20 per cent. is due to the fact that unless Parliament otherwise determines, the contributions of the entrants of to-day will be increased in 10 years' time. That increase is a matter which is within the determination of Parliament as is provided in one of the later Clauses of the Bill.

I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman was quite correct, but I am trying to get at the facts, and the fact remains that under this scheme —and the decennial increases are part of the scheme—he is going to abolish, in time and by degrees, the existing free old age pension. That is a revolutionary principle, and one which I am astonished at the right hon. Gentleman assenting to —that we should go back on a step to which successive Governments of all parties agreed, take away something which the people now possess, and make a non-contributory scheme contributory. Why we should do so I entirely fail to understand. When the country understands it, and the country does not understand it at present, this proposal will meet with a great deal of very natural, and I think very rightful, opposition.

Yesterday the Attorney-General was very scornful as to the speech which I had made, and he tried to involve me in a curious contradiction, with which I could not deal in the form of an interjection. Because I pointed out, what is perfectly true, that the wealth of the nation was a unit, and was not divided into watertight compartments, it by no means follows, as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imply, that it was quite immaterial from which compartment you were taking your contribution. Nor did it follow from what I said, that I considered, and those associated with me considered, that it would be necessary in order to carry out any increased benefits, to put a burden upon industry. The burden upon industry, as I pointed out, is due to the way in which the contributions are being levied. The burden falls enormously heavily on those engaged in industry and relatively lightly on the general taxpayers, who, it is quite true, include industrial classes of all kinds but also include those who are not contributing in other ways at all. There- fore, there is no real contradiction. There is simply a verbal point, and the Attorney-General is, of course, a master of such points. The right hon. and learned Gentleman goes on to say—he is supposed to be quoting me—

The right hon. Gentleman says be wants to get at the facts. He has his facts all wrong again. What the Attorney-General suggested that the right hon. Gentleman was leaving out of account was, not the increase in the cost of old age pensions due to increased length of life and the additional numbers of old age pensioners coming in, but the removal of the means test. That is a point which is dealt with in column 4, Table VIII, of the Actuary's Report which the right hon. Gentleman has not taken into account.

Why should I take it into account? It is really what I have excluded, and the actuaries consider it as a separate item in the Report. Pensions over 70 have no relation at all to what we are discussing, and it is quite clear that the country generally understands that it has no such relation. There are three parts to this scheme. There are the widows' and orphans' pensions; the pensions between 65 and 70, and then the non-contributory pensions over 70. That is quite clear. The burden placed upon the Treasury by doing away with the thrift disqualification would have to be borne by the Treasury even if there were no contributions whatever. Is that challenged? If that is not challenged, then when you are comparing the contributory and non-contributory parts of the scheme you obviously do not include some item which has no relation to the scheme at all, as anybody with any clear idea of statistics will see. It is convenient for the Government to add these things together. They can add any number of other things together in order to try to make out that they are making a contribution, when the fact remains that the contribution which they are literally making to the scheme for widows and orphans pensions and old age pensions between 65 and 70, is represented by the figures I have given.

That figure of £4,000,000 a year is also pure camouflage. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood there and said, "I am giving £4,000,000 a year for 10 years," we thought he was doing something, but when one looks into the White Paper one finds that he never told the House of the savings he was going to make on other accounts which reduced it to 1.7 millions in three or four years' time. I have had to dig out the information from a somewhat obscure document which the Government have been kind enough to publish. What are the Treasury finding on that part of the scheme with which I am dealing, for the first three years? In 1925–26, nothing. In 1926–27 apparently they will have a surplus of nearly £11,000,000 out of contributions of £22,000,000, so there is no reason why they ought to pay any money at all. In 1927–28 there is a surplus of contributions of £7,700.000. For that period they need not find any money at all. As a matter of fact, it is an extraordinary thing that while we are carefully considering how to finance this scheme— and I know the right hon. Gentleman has carefully considered the means of doing so—and to relieve the burdens which fall upon industry in a scheme of this kind, yet in the first three years you accumulate a surplus of something like over £20,000,000 reserves. You are asking industry to pay this burden and the Treasury for three years pay nothing at all. I should have thought that that was not the time at which to accumulate these reserves. Spreading the money over the 10 years is a purely book-keeping transaction.

If one goes on one finds that in the year 1928–29 there is apparently a net estimated expenditure, other than expenditure in respect of old age pensions to persons over 70, of 2.7; in 1929–30, of 4.5; in 1930–31, of 6.1; and in 1931–32, of 7.6; and it is only in the years 1934–36 that one begins to find any considerable Treasury payment at all—that is to say of money which the Treasury is bound to find under the scheme in order to finance it. I desire the House to follow my point. The Treasury payment over 10 years is said to be £4,000,000 a year. There is no financial necessity under the scheme to do this. I could finance the scheme, as it is worked out, without doing that at all, or I could put in the £4,000,000, if I liked, earlier on, and relieve the contributions, or I could halve the contributions and not have the surplus reserves in the first three years at all. All those methods I think are financially sound.

Then the Attorney-General went on to say that the State was contributing one-third. Will the House believe that the period when the State begins to contribute one-third is in 1966, when we are all dead and buried? What about the interval which we are concerned about? What about the present time which the country is concerned about? The Attorney-General's dialectical and forensic skill was never so well displayed as when he got to this great result that they were finding one-third. Even as regards that, they are actually only finding £18,000,000 instead of £23,000,000. It will not do. No amount of eloquence or legal subtlety will get over the fact which is apparent to anybody who examines the figures carefully of what the contribution of the Treasury really means. I fully expect the Minister of Health has allowed himself once more, like many of his predecessors, to come under the harrow of the Treasury in this matter. The Treasury contribution to the common pool under this scheme is inadequate, is mean, and is below what should be a fair distribution of the burden of a social service between those engaged in industry and those engaged outside. The more a scheme of this kind and its finances are examined, the more will that fact be apparent. It is not a question of its being contributory or non-contributory. I warn hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite if they wish to retain any form of contributory system in this country they must provide for a fairer distribution of the burden than they are proposing in this Bill.

6.0 P.M.

I now propose to refer to the position of agriculture and of the agricultural labourer under this scheme. I think it is generally admitted—I think the right hon. Gentleman will not deny the fact— that contributions cannot be enforced As I said yesterday, the agriculturists are not under the Unemployment Insurance Scheme. Therefore, it is not a question of any deficiency being absorbed, it is a question of an entirely fresh burden of £2,600,000 a year being put on to the agriculturists of this country and the large amount of 4d. being taken from the low wage of the agricultural labourer. I want to emphasise that this Government, like so many others, are always talking about the necessity of getting people back to the land, are always talking about the importance of more people being employed on the land, and are always talking about the necessity of subsidising and helping agriculture. What subsidy are they going to give which will anything like compensate the burden they are going to put on to agriculture? If they want to do something for agriculture, let them take from the general pool the contributions which they are trying to exact from this industry, and give the benefits to those who require them in the agricultural districts as a free gift. That would be doing something to maintain the agricultural population where it is, and to compensate those who, through very difficult and hard times, are endeavouring to maintain agriculture in this country.

The right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) has accused the Minister of Health of being under the harrow of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I seem to recollect that, not very long ago, the same right hon. Gentleman was accusing the Chancellor of the Exchequer of being under the harrow of the heads of various Departments whose Estimates he had been unable to reduce. The right hon. Gentleman is a master of paradox always, and on this occasion he seems also to have been a master of contradiction. I do not propose to follow him into the technical and financial questions which make the difference between himself and the Attorney-General, because I could not for a moment compete successfully with one of his experience in that sphere There are only a very few words that I should like to contribute to this discussion. I regret very much that I was not able to be present in the House to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Peck-ham (Mr. Dalton), because I was much interested to hear from the late Minister of Health that the hon. Member for Peck-ham had prepared a non-contributory scheme, on an actuarial basis, showing that the same benefits as are proposed under this Bill could be given at a cost— I am speaking only from memory—of approximately £21,000,000 for the first 10 years and never rising above £42,000,000. These figures were controverted by a speaker from the Treasury Bench later on.

I have the very greatest respect for the economic knowledge and experience of the hon. Member for Peckham, whom I much regret not to see in his place at the moment. He and I had the privilege of being educated at the same establishment. The hon. Gentleman is a lecturer in the London School of Economics. I was once a humble pupil there, and, therefore, I cannot compete with the hon. Gentleman in economic knowledge. We have even something more in common, because it is only by a very narrow margin that we both happen to find ourselves in the present House of Commons, and it is only because a certain number of the Conservative electors of Peckham preferred another candidate to myself that the hon. Member and I did not come into competition at the last Election and one of us knock the other out.

One of us was evidently lucky. Great as is my respect for the economic knowledge and experience of the hon. Member for Peckham, I am afraid that, after reading some of his speeches —not only those delivered in this House, but during the recent Parliamentary Recess, and especially on the subject of the nationalisation of banks and of industry, on which, I am glad to say, he did not go to the extreme length of advocating confiscation without compensation —I am bound to say that I cannot place very great reliance on the hon. Gentleman's detailed actuarial and economic facts, and I would prefer to accept the figures as supplied by the Government actuary and those of the Government who have studied the question carefully, rather than the figures that the late Minister of Health quoted as being presented to him by the hon. Member for Peckham. We have been told in a speech delivered a short time ago by the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) that this scheme could easily be financed on a non-contributory basis. He said it would cost at first a mere £17,000,000, which he thought a bagatelle. I think the attitude that calls £17,000,000 a bagatelle may be said to be thoroughly characteristic of the economics of many hon. Members opposite. He said this could be easily raised from the Super-tax. Assuming that it could be so raised, it would also become necessary, it follows logically, to continue to raise from the Super-tax the increase which would naturally come as this pension scheme became more expensive year by year.

I think it will be generally agreed, even on this side of the House, that the richer a man is, the more he should pay, and the more we can get out of that very small class of multi-millionaires, the more everybody, even on this side of the House, will be pleased, but it is not a question of what we would like to get from the very rich. After all, the very rich are a very small minority of the population, and the total wealth of the very rich individuals represents a very small proportion of the total wealth of the country. We would all like to get as much as possible out of them, but the question is as to what it is practicable to get out of them, and surely hon. Members will realise that, when taxation reaches a certain point, the person who can most easily take his money out of the country, the person who can most easily avoid taxation, and the person who can most easily see that in future years an enormous increment is not subjected to Super-tax in this country, is the rich man. The whole experience of the inflationary movement in Germany showed that it is the rich man who can get his money out of the country when there is a crash and a crisis, and it is the poor man and the man of moderate means who cannot. If you try to raise taxation from the very rich above a limit which they are willing to pay, or rather which they feel it is reasonable that they should be asked to pay, in the long run, not in one year, but in three, five, or 10 years, those people will have taken their wealth out of this country, and it will not be available for any Government to raise taxation from.

Therefore, it is entirely a fallacy, and one, I think, that is often observed in the speeches of hon. Members opposite, to think there is no limit to the amount you can raise by taxation from those whom they call the super-rich, those whom they talk of as flaunting their wealth about. Hon. Members opposite talk as if there was an enormous class of rich people constantly flaunting their wealth. We, on this side, do not go about taunting hon. Members opposite because certain of their supporters are sometimes brought up in the Courts for various crimes and offences. Then why is it that they are always commenting on the fact that a very small minority, not necessarily always of the super-rich, but of those whom, perhaps, their friends overseas would call the bourgeoisie, are occasionally brought up in Court for acts which offend the senses of everybody in this House? [ Interruption. ] I am most anxious not to enter into a controversy on the subject of attacks on any class on either side, and I only brought up the question because accusations against the idle rich are so constantly made from the other side. We, on this side, entirely agree that the flaunting of wealth, is wrong; that there are, in fact, a few who do not know how to use their wealth and who set a bad example to the whole community, and we who believe in stability and private property think those people are doing great harm to their class and to the property and stability of this country and doing good politically to hon. Members opposite, and we deplore it just as much as, and more than, they do.

To conclude the argument, which I developed slightly, on the question of the financing of this Bill by increasing the Super-tax, that is a point that I can never quite appreciate. I can understand Communism, the abolition of private property and confiscation. That is a scheme which we, on this side, think impracticable and wrong, but it is something definite. You confiscate all private property, and you follow the example of what has been done in Russia. It may be right, or it may be wrong—we do not believe in it—but what I do not believe in as economically practicable is to endeavour to transfer wealth, to obtain wealth from one class to distribute among others, which is what hon. Members are asking for when they say you should maintain widows, orphans, people incapacitated from work, and people above a certain age, with no contribution from themselves, by taxing a certain class of people. That is an economic fallacy, which I do not think can possibly be carried out in practice, and as long as hon. Members believe in it and make speeches in favour of it, they will find it very difficult to obtain the support of the large mass of moderate-people in the working classes, in the small shopkeeping classes, and in the small professional classes, without whose support they can never hope for a successful Government.

Had I had the opportunity earlier this week of saying what my view on this Measure is, I should like to have congratulated the Government on bringing it in, and to have said how cordially I welcome the carrying out of the pledges which I, amongst other humble Members of the party, gave at the last Election in this connection. But this is not a Second Reading Debate. We are now debating the financial provisions of the Bill, and I only said that because I would like to have it on record that I, for one, am a wholehearted supporter of this Measure. I am glad the distinction has been brought out between this side and that, as it has been in this Debate, that, whereas the party opposite are in favour of the community as a whole sustaining entirely the widow, the orphan, and the aged, without any contribution from themselves, we, on this side, believe in helping them, in building up a foundation on which they may help themselves. That has been sharply brought out, and we are quite prepared to face the country on that issue, and in four years' time to let the country, not hon. Members opposite, decide on the merits of this scheme.

The hon. Member who spoke last has opened up a great question, which seems to me to have gone almost beyond the scope of the matter before the Committee, but, as he has suggested that those of us who sit on this side are in favour of the distribution of wealth on a much more equitable basis than at the present time, I can only assure him that he has rightly interpreted the views we hold.

I think the hon. Gentleman did not quite understand. I said the re-distribution of wealth by means of taxation.

I am entirely prepared to accept that, because that also represents our view. I might suggest to the hon. Member, who seemed very confident about the removal of wealth from the country, that he would find it is not so easy to do as he suggests. It is quite easy for one man at the present time to remove his wealth from this country, but it would be quite another thing if a number of wealthy people were anxious to remove large sums of money. You would have such a fall on the Stock Exchange that, in all probability, before the money could be removed out of the country, it would have been better to have left it in investments, than face the loss on sale. But, perhaps, if I followed up this subject, Captain FitzRoy, you would say that the line the hon. Member has led me to follow was out of order. Therefore, I will return to the subject that was being discussed before the hon. Member opened out into the other subject. In the first place, in one sense I am glad to have had one difficulty, which some of us felt, cleared up by the statement of the Minister of Health, who, as I understand, confirmed the statement of the Chancellor, when he said that ultimately, under the scheme presented in the White Paper, the present system of pensions on a non-contributory basis would come to an end, and that in the future—the far future, I quite agree— the whole of the people of this country would contribute towards the old age pensions they received. I think I am correct in saying that was the answer that the Minister gave to the right hon. Gentleman just now.

I understand from the Minister that, supposing between now and that far distant date, no other legislation were introduced, there would be two sets of people, one set providing, to a great extent, their old age pensions, and another group of persons who were receiving them entirely from the State. That opens up, in a still more important way, the principle upon which we are working, and also the importance of the question of how the money that is required is to be raised. It seems to me there are two points that have to be specially stressed to-day. One is the weight upon industry, as to which I cannot add anything to what was so admirably expressed by the right hon. Member who spoke from the benches opposite, and the right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond). I, personally, cannot bring forward any further figures to stress the importance of the question from a business point of view in throwing £10,000,000 or £11,000,000 of virtual taxation upon industry at the present time, because anyone who knows anything of the state of certain sections of industry knows what that means. I do not know whether hon. Members have considered this point. We have seen in the newspapers the figures connected with the London County Council tramway service. I venture to suggest that if we knew exactly what was the added burden to be thrown upon the tramways of London by the proposals of this Measure, we should find it ran into tens of thousands of pounds, for which, it is obvious, the tramways could in no way recoup themselves at the present time, in view of the present condition of traffic in London.

One line of argument I want specially to emphasise in connection with this business aspect, is that while business in certain lines is very unsatisfactory, there are businesses in this country which are by no means suffering in the way other business concerns have been suffering during the last few years, and I think if the Minister were to look into this question of how the burden is thrown upon industry, it would be found that the industries in one sense which are least able to bear it at the present time, are going to bear the greatest possible burden. Railways, mining, shipbuilding and the engineering trades, employing large numbers of men, will have to pay heavily under this scheme. But if you turn to great financial industries in the City, many of which have been doing by no means badly during the last few years, and whose employés, in many instances, would not come under this Bill, you find that those businesses, according to the profits that they are receiving, are not bearing anything like the proportion of the load that they would bear if the weight of the burden were thrown according to the profits that are made.

Without going into actual details, I have been trying to find out what is the weight of taxation that is throw a upon the banks of this country, compared with the coal-mining industry. If you take a few of the largest banks, you will find that their profits amounted to about £10,000,000, but, possibly, the number of men they are employing would not exceed 50,000, and only about 35,000 of them would come under the proposals of the Minister of Health. That works out at a comparatively small sum that you are throwing upon industry of that kind—I think somewhere about £30,000 a year. Compare that with the coal mines. What the profits of the coal mines are, I find it very difficult to ascertain, but the trade balance, which is not the same thing, of the British coal mines in 1924, according to the Mines Department Statistical Summary, was £13,000,000. If this were in any way comparable with the £10,000,000 that the banks have made, and the 35,000 men who helped to make the money for the banks were compared with the 1,000,000 odd men who were required in the coal-mining industry, we should find at once the enormous difference this charge is going to make upon the coal mines compared with the banking industry of this country.

The point I wish to raise is that this system that we follow is inequitable, looked at from purely a business point of view—and I am not dealing with the other side. It is a survival, to my mind, of the old idea, when the employer lived in some country place with his employés around him, and took full responsibility for their care in old age and so forth, and to a certain extent met that case. That time has passed away, and to throw upon industry, according to the number of people employed, the weight of unemployment, the needs of a family and so forth, does not seem to me to be equitable, because, after all, the other businesses who are enjoying themselves are also benefiting from the work of the men in the coal-mines and on the railways, although they may not actually be shareholders in those companies. It seems to me these charges are charges that ought to be borne by the whole of the community.

I think, too, there is another important point, of which we do not take sufficient note in connection with financial questions, and that is the effect which the large amount of War Debt must have had upon the income of people living in this country. All people who are living entirely upon stocks and investments of that kind—I refer to the Government Debt—practically are not going to be affected by the proposals of the Minister of Health, except insofar as they employ servants, gardeners and people in their private employ. So that the financial proposals are the very worst thing from the business standpoint you can have at the present time, and I am not surprised at the protest that the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) made in regard to the weight of taxation that they were inflicting upon industry to-day. I can only think, that if a financial proposal of this kind had been brought forward by a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer the folly of doing it at the present time would have been made plain in every Conservative and every financial newspaper in this country, and that it was one of the most foolish proposals from the business point of view that could have been brought forward at the present time. If only the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, after all, has not spent most of his life in finance, and has only begun to take it up after interludes in the Army, and Navy, and art and every other walk of life, had had a longer experience of finance before being placed in the position of bringing in a Budget, he would have seen that no proposal so detrimental to the trade interests of this country could have been brought in at the present time.

There is another aspect to which I wish to refer before I sit down. The hon. Member who spoke last mentioned the fact that we believe in trying to adjust the inequalities in this country with regard to the distribution of wealth by taxation and measures of this kind. You can also lay a burden upon the human capital in this country which is too heavy for it to bear. We have had in this House recently the figures in regard to the enormous reduction in wages during the last few years. If you go to any of the poorer parts of our great cities, the thing which must impress itself upon anyone is the fact that the child population to-day is not only badly housed, but it is regularly and systematically underfed. It cannot get, and is not getting, sufficient food, and every burden of this kind you throw upon wages, as we are going to do if this Measure be passed, incidentally is going to lessen the possibilities of the children getting sufficient food. I believe that is one of the fundamental evils of our social system to-day. If for no other reason, I am opposed to placing fresh burdens on the wage-earners in our midst, in view of the fact that to-day so many of them cannot get the bare necessities of life.

The hon. Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) talked about the advantages of the people contributing to schemes of this kind. When the well-placed in life make remarks, as they often do, about working-class homes, they always strike me as being exceedingly absurd. We get advice from people as to how much it is possible to save when you are living on 30s. a week. It is a thing that personally I have never had to do. I am fully convinced that I could not save a halfpenny out of 30s. a week, or £2 a week, or a considerably larger sum. Personally I do not think the method of taking makes the slightest difference. When a man receives his wage and finds so much is being deducted he feels exactly the same as those do who look at their dividends and find the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken away some of them.

When I remember the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the removal of the large burdens from the Income Tax payers, the needless gifts that he is giving to Super-tax payers—that they were never expecting, and had no idea that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be so foolish to give them —the money that he is proposing to give them to alleviate the Super-tax, which is an absolute throwing away of public money which might have been used to help in several directions; when I remember the throwing of the burden upon industry to give the money to the Supertax payer, the throwing of the burdens upon the children of the great cities in order to give it to your Income Tax payers, I cannot help thinking that even some of those who are sitting on the opposite benches, who really considered what it might mean to the child life of this country, would be only too glad to have seen that 6d. retained, even to their own personal loss, rather than that they should inflict a fresh hardship upon the children in our midst who are so utterly unable to bear any further burdens on account of the social conditions under which they live.

I have listened to the denunciations on this question of the burden upon trade, but I think it is admitted that all insurance schemes are a burden upon trade. One remembers what the Labour party said when the McKenna Duties were taken off. Members said last August that if the duties were taken off it would be a burden on trade, and industry would be ruined. What, however, do they say to-day? They are inconsistent as to this burden on industry, for we cannot have it both ways. There is no doubt, however, that there are certain trades near the borderline which will be very badly hit by this insurance scheme. Still, there are some trades and some small industries who will welcome this insurance, as, for instance, the small shopkeeper with one assistant, or the small industry which employs only two or three men, and that cannot go in for an expensive insurance scheme on their own. They will welcome this Government scheme which allows a fair amount to be paid to the widow.

One of the criticisms made by the party opposite is that it is a contributory scheme. As one who has a pension on a contributory scheme, I must say that I welcome having such a pension, instead of the dole. In the Army we receive a pension on the contributory scheme if we live long enough. Pensions broadcasted are not good things for the nation, and in this matter we might do worse than remember the example of the Roman Empire. There is no doubt to my mind that a contributory scheme is one the whole country expects us to enforce. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may be divided into three categories. First of all, those who showed expressions of surprise on their faces when the Budget was introduced, for they saw that we were going to fulfil our Election pledges. The cause of that surprise, too, is quite obvious, for they would have found a difficulty in bringing in a claim that this is a rich man's Budget.

The attack on this Insurance Scheme shows the difficulty in claiming this Budget as a "rich man's Budget." One other difficulty is that the party opposite were sorry that they themselves did not bring in a Scheme. They had the chance. We have heard some very interesting disclosures in the Press as to what their Scheme was. The Back Benchers say there was a non-contributory Scheme. The Front Benchers say nothing.

I was trying to show the difficulty of the Labour party in their attack upon the financial policy of the Government. So far as the widows and dependent children are concerned, there is no doubt we were expected to bring in a scheme of this kind. There is no doubt that the industries expected that there would be this burden, and, therefore, we must as a party be prepared to carry the scheme through. I have the greatest pleasure in warmly supporting this scheme.

We are concerned on this occasion with finance rather than with policy. In view of the fact, too, that my right hon. Friend and many hon. Members behind me have covered the main parts of this scheme in Debate, I propose for only a minute or two to ask the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary a few questions upon the purely financial proposals of the Bill. Like other hon. Members, I have read the Report by the Government Actuary and the Memorandum on these proposals. I think I express the feeling of hon. Members in different parts of the House when I say that there is some considerable doubt as to the form the financial arrangements under this Measure are going to take. If hon. Members turn to Clause 11 of the Bill, they will find that it is proposed to pay the contributions which are collected from the various sources into what is called a pensions account, and that is to be a current account, an operating account, under this scheme out of which the benefits are to be paid. Then there is to be accumulated in another part what is called a Treasury Pension Account of those resources which are not immediately required, which are invested in the usual way, and to which the interest is to be added for, of course, the benefit of the financial safeguard in the Bill. All that is perfectly plain and clear so far as this scheme goes.

The first question, however, which must present itself to the House is whether, having decided to put this on a contributory basis, which, after all, is now the policy of the Government, this is practically not superannuation. Are the Government setting up a proper actuarial fund which may be measured on the lives of the contributors under this scheme, and property with a definite legal right in that property, or are they merely proposing a Treasury account with a Treasury guarantee of the benefits which are being provided? The Minister of Health in another connection has been associated with matters of superannuation, and, probably, he shares our doubts as to this part of the scheme. At all events, he will agree that there should be a very definite statement to Parliament before we commit ourselves to a Financial Resolution, which, after all, largely decides the matter financially for 10 years ahead. Within recent times we have been getting, as I think, into rather loose habits in this matter of superannuation. In the police pension system, for example, there is no fund. There is merely a contribution from the police, and then there is a contribution by the State towards that of the local authority. The benefits are guaranteed, and so the scheme goes on.

A day or two ago the Government presented to this House another scheme dealing with teachers' superannuation. There again they did not propose to set up any fund at all which is capable of actuarial measurement. They defend that course on the ground that if they set up superannuation benefit on a precise actuarial basis, they would require to pay larger sums into that fund, during the next two or three years, than they will have to pay by keeping a kind of loose Treasury account. In other words, their desire is to limit their liability at the present stage of the Teachers' Superannuation Scheme, their defence of that course being, presumably, that later the national conditions will be better, and the burden will be easier to carry. As I understand the proposal, under the present scheme, very much the same kind of loose principle is being applied. The Government are not making any very large contribution in the early years— they are not proposing to set up a fund, they are merely keeping an account—and they themselves by arguing that the cost of war pensions will diminish as the cost of this scheme increases have subscribed to the view of awaiting better times, in one direction at least, to enable them to meet this obligation on their part, at all events up to the peak point of the scheme.

The question I want to raise to-night is one which, I believe, every hon. Member will regard as very important on the financial side. We are legislating for 10,000,000 or 15,000,000 people who will be contributors, and for a very large number who ultimately will participate in the benefits of this scheme. Surely it is our duty to be in a position to describe to these contributors exactly the amount of benefit or right that we have obtained for them. Have they any real right or safeguard in the scheme at all? I do not suggest for a single moment—no one would who had been even a very short time at the Treasury—that there is any doubt at all about their benefits. I imagine the State will always provide the benefits laid down in this legislation, and, accordingly, it is correct to say that they have got a kind of Government or Treasury guarantee. Then, again, I suppose there is a certain safeguard in the fact that in the event of a fund having been established and that fund becoming insolvent, the contributors would, presumably, be exposed to the hardship of having either their benefits reduced or their contributions increased; in other words, they would have to take the good times with the bad, as in an ordinary superannuation fund. There was a great deal to be said for that kind of argument a few years ago, when we had nothing like the actuarial experience which we have at our disposal to-day, and particularly at a time when we were dealing with limited superannuation funds, upon which almost certainly there would have been considerable liability for burdens and on which the basis of contribution was, in most cases, very restricted indeed.

It is altogether different at the present day, because we have got far more experience in actuarial matters. In this very connection, we have a good deal of experience from the National Health Insurance scheme itself. Here, at all events, you have got a very wide basis and perfectly good contributory material, and I should imagine that in such circumstances, unless the Government deliberately want to cut down their liability at this stage, the proper course would be to set up some kind of fund in which the contributors have a definite, established, legal right; in other words, in which they have a property, though it is there, indeed, in the last resort in the Government or Treasury guarantee or promise which we are giving to-night. Is it impossible for the Minister of Health to consider a proposal of that kind at this stage of the scheme? I am very much afraid that if this country embarks on these loose financial methods in a matter of this kind things may not, in the last resort, work out to the advantage of the contributors. I will assume for the moment that their rights are safeguarded, but I am going to consider the situation which might easily arise from the steadily improving condition of the account. Supposing we get all the contributions regularly, and that the calls upon the scheme were substantially less than has been estimated by the Govern- ment actuary at the present stage. Let the House remember that the Government actuary has kept very clearly in view the changed conditions as regards longer life which have existed in this country within recent times. Suppose the fund improves in later times, it becomes perfectly plain that same extra benefit could be given to the recipients. What is the position going to be? Do the Government at that stage propose to reduce contributions or to improve benefits, or what policy have they in their mind?.

There appears to be in the establishment of a definite fund an easy and convenient way of measuring the problem, but it is altogether different if we proceed on the lines of the financial methods the Government now propose. In that case I imagine all that the Minister of Health could do in succeeding years would be to try to make out whether there is an equivalence between the contributions of the parties to the fund and the benefits which are being paid to the people entitled to them. That was the very phrase employed in a memorandum dealing with the Teachers' Superannuation Bill which was debated in this House a few nights ago. I think I am right in saying that the Minister of Health, subject always to the very powerful Treasury persuasion which is put on any problem of that kind, cannot be entirely happy as a student and advocate of superannuation when he views this problem. I do not suggest for a moment that the contributors are in any way in danger, but would ask the Government very definitely whether, having regard to the present position of police superannuation, having regard to the new position of teachers' superannuation and having regard to this very large departure in superannuation for the masses which we are now making, this country is going on, in this growing and very important problem, without any real actuarial basis at all in the shape of a fund which is of the very essence of any superannuation scheme? That is a very important point for the contributors, because we want to see them have a property in this matter, and their rights completely safeguarded in that other and, as I think, not less important sphere. That is the only point I propose to put, because hon. Members have raised all the other issues on the Bill, but I cannot help regarding it on the purely financial side as one of the most important features of the Measure now before the House.

We always listen to the right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the Committee with respect and with interest on these financial questions, on which we all recognise his great competence. His competence was so great that it seemed to me that as he was speaking he was saving me the trouble of answering his questions, for he put the considerations on both sides better than I could expect to do myself. It is perfectly true, as he says, that there are two methods of dealing with this matter, the method of setting up a fund and the method which has been adopted by the Government. It is clear that the right hon. Gentleman feels no fear whatever in his own mind as to the safety of the benefit which contributors may expect to get. He is looking very far ahead. So far as concerns any who are now likely to benefit from this Bill they can sleep securely in their beds, and have no fear as to the benefits being forthcoming when the time arrives. My right hon. Friend looks much further ahead, and he contemplates some distant time when the contributions may prove to be more than sufficient for the purpose for which they have been devised. If one looks forward a very great number of years, one gets into a region of possibilities which are incalculable at this moment, and it is quite possible that circumstances may produce very different results from what we think we can foresee to-day. But that consideration may apply in both directions. For instance, there is the fact that owing to better methods of living perhaps, and perhaps to larger quantities of medicine consumed, people live much longer than they used to do. We have also a declining birth-rate. What is going to be the inter-connection of those two factors in the future? Is the population of this country going to reach a moment when instead of increasing at a decreasing rate it actually begins to decrease? It seems very likely that that time will come, but when, it would be exceedingly rash to prophesy.

If you have at one and the same time a decreasing population and an ever-increasing proportion of that population living on to the age of 65, when these benefits begin, and then living on for a longer period than they do now, during the whole of which time they will receive the benefits, it is quite possible we might get a state of things the exact opposite of that which the right hon. Gentleman contemplated, and perhaps in those circumstances contributors will be even more secure under the arrangement proposed in the Government Bill than they would be if they had to depend on a fund. The right hon. Gentleman has also pointed out clearly enough, that the other system would entail larger contributions to-day than are necessary under the scheme. That is, I quite frankly admit, a consideration of the greatest importance. It has been argued that this is an unfortunate time to start a scheme of this sort, when, as it has been said, we have not fully recovered from the exhaustion of the Great War, when our industries are depressed, when many of our people are unemployed, and so forth. It may be argued that we should do better to abandon the scheme altogether. If we have to make very large payments now, it will make the postponement of the scheme absolutely inevitable. We have chosen a course which we believe is absolutely financially justifiable and which also gives these great boons and benefits to the people of this country at the earliest possible moment.

7.0 P.M.

We have had an interesting discussion, which has ranged mostly round about the question whether a scheme of pensions should be contributory or non-contributory. I think we can defend our contributory scheme on two grounds. The first is the ground of principle. When we come down to the attitude of hon. and right hon. Members opposite towards the system of widows' pensions, or even old age pensions, it is fundamentally different from that of Members on this side. It was, I think, illustrated in a rather interesting manner in the Debate last night by the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall). He drew upon his Australian experience. He said, "When I was in Australia I found the children of widows received an allowance of 10s. a week for each child, and if the widow was unemployed, that allowance was increased to 15s.," and he commended that as a much more generous scheme than what we have to-day. Then he went on to say that in Australia they had no Poor Law. Well, that is exactly where hon. Members opposite get the idea of a widows' and old age pension scheme being something which is going to supersede the Poor Law system, and is to supersede the present system of relief. And then they say you should distribute relief to people according to their needs. That is an arguable point. We believe there must always be people in circumstances over which they have no control who cannot support themselves, and it is the duty of some part of the community to care for them, not necessarily a central authority. We have hitherto put them under the charge of a local authority; but have thought that some means should be devised of helping such people to help themselves. We have based our ideas upon the principle of thrift; we desire to encourage thrift among the people by a scheme to which they themselves shall contribute, and in which they shall be assisted by central resources. That is the whole difference between ourselves and hon. Members opposite.

The other argument put forward is that the country cannot afford at the present time a non-contributory scheme of pensions and, therefore, it is not a question of whether you can have a contributory pension or not, but whether you shall have contributory pensions or no pensions at all. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) gave us some calculations which were rather curious. The figures that he gave us he said he had extracted from the actuarial tables in the Report. But he did not take all the figures. He took particular figures and left others out of calculation altogether. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), who spoke earlier in the Debate, but who thought it not worth while to listen to the rest of the Debate, said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech either meant something or it meant nothing—a profound remark which occurred in many other speeches. It happens that the Chancellor's speech meant something, and I would like once more to repeat the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when dealing with the question of War pensions. What was it he said? He pointed out that in the course of the actuarial investigation it had been brought to the attention of the Government that in considering the finance of the scheme they must take into account something which had not been in the minds of the House at the time when the original Old Age Pensions Act was passed, namely, that there was going to be, in the course of a comparatively short time, an enormous increase in the cost of these old age pensions, due to increased length of life and very considerable expansion of the population in the middle of the nineteenth century. That is a very disagreeable discovery, and he doubted, in the difficult circumstances of the present time, whether he was justified in adding to burdens which were going to be for the relief of posterity. The Chancellor said, "After all, I am doing no injustice to posterity if I do not relieve them of these burdens. What I am doing is to arrange a scheme so that as the war pensions fall the increasing burden of this scheme shall be balanced by their decrease," and he explained and showed again in one of the tables in the Actuarial Report, Table VIII, that taking all these chances together, the result is a fairly level line, because as one item goes up another goes down. That was the Chancellor of the Exchequer's argument. The hon. Member for Peckham left out of account existing old age pensions; that is why I say he took one column of figures to serve his purpose and omitted another.

On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peckham pointed out that after all his figures were taken into calculation there was £11,000.000 left.

I think a great number of hon. Members have continued to argue at one and the same time that the burden upon industry due to this proposal was very unfair and the benefits totally inadequate, but we cannot carry on those two arguments at one and the same time. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh, yes, we can! "] We are not now considering intellectual curiosities. I am considering the logical mind. We cannot carry on two arguments which are really inconsistent. We cannot increase the benefits without increasing the burden on industry. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member seems to think there can be provided a sort of widow's cruse. We cannot expect to have increased benefit and at the same time reduce the burden on industry. If you are to have a contributory scheme of insurance there is only one way in which you can carry it into practice, and that has been adopted by the collection of contributions from the employés. I know the argument used at the time the National Health Insurance Act was passed was that, after all, the increased charge upon employers would be passed on to their customers. Now we are told to-day that our industries are in such a position that they cannot pass it on to the consumer. It is because we feel that difficulty at the present time that the Government are giving very serious attention to see if they cannot make things a little easier until industry recovers. I get numbers of letters from people in favour of the Bill.

You say the Government are considering the question of some alleviation with regard to industry. Do you suggest they are also contemplating equality as between the workmen and the employers of labour?

The question of equality of relief is to be considered. I am sure my right hon. Friend is considering all practicable schemes and exploring every avenue. I think I shall be able to show the Committee, in a word or two, that the scheme is at any rate appreciated by some people. I will just read this letter from a lady who writes:

"I trust the liberty I am taking is not unpardonable. Widowed shortly before the War, left with five little ones, one posthumous, I struggled to keep them until the Armistice, and then was compelled to put the younger ones in an orphanage 60 miles away, with charity's help. I am now in broken health. With the 7s. 6d. insurance benefit and more charity, your magnificent promise for 6th January will bring me my children home again, to a mother for whom I feel sure they have always pined. My own heartaches I will not voice, except to offer my deepest gratitude to the party whose brain-power has done their best to succour the fatherless and widow. If it is necessary, I can supply fullest details from the vicar and M.F.H. in whose service my husband was. You are at liberty to make any use you care to of this. All I wish to convey to you is, to me at least life is once more worth living."

That is a human document which I am very pleased to quote, because the right hon. Gentleman opposite said that insurance schemes, as a rule, had not brought popularity to the party which introduced them, but here at least is evidence that they are received with gratitude. I think we have thoroughly discussed the subject of the Debate this afternoon, and I hope it will now be possible for us to come to a conclusion.

I should like to support the appeal which has been made to the Minister of Health from all quarters of the House that he should do something, as he promised to do, to relieve the burdens on industry during the next year or two. It seems somewhat ironical that the right hon. Gentleman should bring in a Measure which is going to add to the burdens of industry, and more particularly those areas which have been so badly hit during recent years. I remember only a few years ago going to the Government of that day, and I heard the right hon. Gentleman pleading very eloquently the cause of those very industrial areas which he is now going to hit very hardly by the Bill as it stands. I hope when we ask for bread the right hon. Gentleman is not going to give us a stone, but on reconsideration I trust that he will be able to considerably modify the proposals contained in this Bill.

In regard to this financial resolution, I maintain that the £4,000,000 contained in it is a mean and beggarly sum for the State to contribute towards the total amount to be expended, because £20,000,000 is being provided by the employers and the employed and only £4,000,000 by the State, or one-sixth of the total cost. I should like to ask why should the State in the case of pensions for widows and orphans bear a less proportion of the cost than in the case of unemployment insurance? Surely the State should do more than it is doing when dealing with an annual charge for social welfare such as pensions for widows and orphans. I wonder whether the Government are fully seized with the seriousness of the industrial position. According to the Income Tax and Supertax returns, apparently there is a certain measure of prosperity in the country, while in some districts there exists the severest depression that has ever been known in the history of the country. I have turned up the report relating to the shipbuilding industry on the northeast coast and I find there over 40 per cent. of unemployment, a huge figure which has been recurring for many months.

We heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir E. Horne) and others refer to the alarming and depressed state of such industries as coal, steel, and shipbuilding, and surely at a time like the present it is the height of folly to add to the difficulties caused by foreign competition and the difficulty of securing orders by seeking to put a further impost upon industry which is more than it can bear. The right hon. Gentleman said that the burden of local rates and insurance charges should be the first charge on industry, because they hit industry more heavily than the Income Tax and Super-tax, which are taken after the profits have been made, whereas these things, which are taken as a first charge, are a serious handicap on manufacturers in the attempts they are making to recover their lost trade. Figures have been given showing the appalling condition of the burden of rates and similar charges. May I quote from the chairman of a leading company in the North of England who, in a speech, was comparing costs to-day with costs in 1914? He said that a ton of steel in 1914 cost 2s. 9d. per ton in rating and similar charges, and to-day those charges amount to 21s. 1d. per ton, and yet, under these circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman is going to add to that burden.

We have been told quite truly that as a result of the pensions scheme, certain relief will be given to the local rates. On the other hand I would like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman considers the relief which is being given to the local rates is at all comparable to the burden which he is going to add on industry. There will be £20,000,000 contributed by employers and employed, and the right hon. Gentleman has only suggested relief to the rates to the extent of £3,000,000 in the years immediately following the adoption of the scheme, although he says eventually that relief will be increased to £7,000,000 a year. What we are troubled about to-day is the immediate effect of these new charges, and according to the right hon. Gentle- man's own showing you are imposing upon industry a charge of £20,000,000 a year, and you are only giving a relief through the local rates of about £3,000,000 a year, although you are going to add very considerably to the burden on industry.

Those facts are borne out by figures taken from my own district. I have had certain figures taken out relating to the constituency which I represent where the guardians in a certain area relieve over 3,000 widows and orphans and that will be equal to £1,000 per week. In the same area, according to the registrar of insured persons, there are 55,000 contributors, including men and women, and the amount comes to over £1,500 a week. Therefore, you would have a net loss in that particular area as a result of this Bill of over £500 a week, or £26,000 a year. I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that the relief he is giving is only a very small part of the added burden, and, therefore, I ask him to consider most carefully during the next few weeks, before the Bill becomes law, whether he cannot give some more material relief to those districts which are so badly hit, and which will be crippled in their struggle for existence by these proposals.

Surely it is possible to put some of these burdens on the Income Tax and the Super-tax payers, because then it would fall more equitably than it does upon rates and insurance. We have seen in recent years an increase in the returns for Income Tax and Super-tax and the amounts have been going up in a most extraordinary way. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the law of diminishing returns, but that has not yet been applied to the Income Tax and the Super-tax. I submit that that is still a source of supply which is untapped, and which can bear these extra burdens better than industry which is now struggling under the most difficult conditions. I hope the Government will further consider this matter in view of the appeals which have been made to them, and I trust they will realise that the people who are getting richer should bear the burden instead of putting it on the shoulders of the people who are getting poorer.

Some of us would be very pleased indeed if we could accept the speeches made from below the Gangway as expressing the sentiments of the Liberal party. A challenge was made last night as to whether hon. Members below the Gangway agreed with contributory pensions or not. The Gentlemen who are making these appeals this afternoon were then conspicuous by their absence. This Debate reminds me of something I heard when I was young in the Labour movement:

You do not say to the soldier's widow that she is receiving an allowance as a charity after her husband has sacrificed his life in the cause of the country. You do not say that to your admirals and generals or to Queen Alexandra, who gets £80,000 a year, and, consequently, is getting £1,000 a year for every year she has lived. In her case no questions are asked about means. You do not ask whether she has been careful or not. I have great respect for this lady, and I would not ask her any insulting questions, but I find that my class has to go through the mill, and, consequently, I protest against it. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are drawing pensions who do not need them. They do not come to the Post Office to get them, but they are sent to them by cheques through the post. We have to wait in queues. Members of this House have been drawing pensions for years, and at the same time some of them are directors of no less than 13 public companies, at an average salary of £1,000 a year for each directorate. If you belong to the right class you are all right for a pension. If you are careful in choosing your parents you can always get pensions, but our people have to pay 4d. a week. What is going to be the result? The employer, of course, to some extent in some industries can turn it on to the commodity which he is engaged in producing, and, of course, naturally it goes on to the cost of production, so that the more the worker pays the less he gets. I know that hon. Members below the gangway will appreciate these economics. They are only street corner economics, but they are true, nevertheless. You do not want to go to a university to know that two and two make four. Some of us on these benches, in spite of our lack of education and opportunity, know that every tax, in the last analysis, comes back upon the back of the worker.

The men who do the work of the nation have to pay for everything. The only people who have to pay under the scheme of the Government are the people who are getting least out of industry. The people who are getting most have to pay nothing; on the contrary, you make them a present of £40,000,000, and then it is said that the nation cannot afford it. If we cannot afford a pension for the widow or the orphan left behind by the worker who renders as good service to the State as any soldier on the battlefield— because the industrial worker is just as important as the military or naval worker —if we cannot afford a pension for him, what right have we to talk about pensions for other people who only render service according to their capacity in their various departments of life? We stand for the non-contributory principle. There is only one fair system of taxation, and that is that the whole people should pay for these social services. You are not insuring the people at all under this Bill; you are making the people pay—you are feeding the dog on his own tail. People come along and claim' this is a great charter, and we are told that it is a Bill that we ought to have introduced. I hope to God that I may never belong to a party that will introduce a Bill of such, a contemptible character as this.

We pension admirals and generals, and all the great people; therefore, we claim that the common or garden worker who gives his service has the same right to go down to his grave with some degree of hope—[ A laugh ]—that those whom he leaves behind him will be provided for. You believe in hope, and most of you believe in dope. You gave them some at the last Election, and you are here as the result. How many of you told the people at the last General Election that the old age pensioner in the future will be a contributor towards his own pension? You have even stolen the kid's money-box, because at the age of 16 he begins to contribute for a pension that, in the majority of cases, he will never live to see, because there is only one in ten of my class who lives to the age of 70. We are a great sporting people—we believe in the ten-to-one chance. And there is only one in six who lives to the age of 65, so there will be six workmen to give another five bob a week to the chap of 65. You can always find money when you want it. Next Wednesday there will be plenty of it found. The telephones will be working overtime, and Members of this House will go on the telephone and put a couple of hundred pounds on their fancy, or their Nancy.

There is no money to be voted by this Resolution for the purpose of which the hon. Member is speaking.

In my constituency we have some thousands of casual labourers; how do they stand according to the provisions of the Bill As I understand it —I am not an expert, of course; I am always subject to correction; indeed, I am more subject to correction than anything else—as I understand the Bill, a man will have to have 27 stamps on his card within two years to qualify for pension. There are thousands of men in the industrial parts of this country who have been out of work continuously for two years. How are they going to qualify? Up to now I have not heard any explanation on behalf of the Government as to how these people are going to be covered. It looks as though we are in for a permanent army of unemployed men and women in this country of at least 1,000,000 for some years; are they being provided for in any way by this Bill? It simply means that the worst-placed districts in the country, such as my own constituency, will have a permanent body of people on Poor Law relief We shall have to face that burden, whether we like it or not. We may be able to cut it down a little, but here is this permanent army, and we have no right to place industrial areas of the country in such a position while we allow large rich portions of the community to escape any liability.

In West Ham our rates are 24s. 6d. in the £, and the Bill introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the other day, raising the valuation, will mean another 6d. in the £, according to the experts who have reported to us, so far as the rating of machinery is concerned. Suppose we take it at 25s. To get £5,000 in West Ham we have to have a penny rate, while in the City of Westminster a penny rate brings in £36,000. Therefore, we have to

levy a rate of 7d. in the £ in order to equal a penny rate in the City of Westminster. Is that a fair burden for us to bear 2 And yet, on the top of that, we have this responsibility. The West Ham Corporation is a large employer of labour. We employ about 2,000 men and women, and we shall have to pay 4d. in respect of every one of them, while the men themselves will have to pay under this scheme, so that what we gain on the swings we lose on the roundabouts. I want to suggest that this scheme has not been properly considered. There is only one fair basis for a scheme of this character, and that is that the whole nation should pool its resources. Just as we all helped to pay for the War, now we must all help to pay for the pensions of the victims of the industrial war which is now going on.

I beg to move, in line 9 to leave out the words

"and for each of the next nine succeeding years and thereafter such sums as Parliament may hereafter determine."

I move this Amendment formally. As I offered my observations on the subject last night, I do not propose further to take up the time of the Committee.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes. 277; Noes. 112.

Division No. 110.]

AYES.

[7.40 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Briscoe, Richard George

Couper, J. B.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Albery, Irving James

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Brown, Maj. D. C.(N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Dalkeith, Earl of

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Bullock, Captain M.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Astor, Viscountess

Burman, J. B.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Balniel, Lord

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Dawson, Sir Philip

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Campbell, E. T.

Duckworth, John

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Cassels, J. D.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Bennett, A. J.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Berry, Sir George

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Bethell, A.

Chapman, Sir S.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Blundell, F. N.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Boothby, R. J. G.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Brass, Captain W.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Fielden, E. B.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Finburgh, S.

Briant, Frank

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Ford, P. J.

Briggs, J. Harold

Cooper, A. Duff

Forestier-Walker, L.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Lamb, J. O.

Ropner, Major L.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Rye, F. G.

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Loder, J. de V.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Ganzoni, Sir John

Looker, Herbert William

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Sandon, Lord

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Gee, Captain R.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Savery, S. S.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Lumley, L. R.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R. Sowerby)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Goff, Sir Park

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Shepperson, E. W.

Grace, John

McLean, Major A.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Gretton, Colonel John

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Macquisten, F. A.

Skelton, A. N.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Smithers, Waldron

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Malone, Major P. B.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Margesson, Captain D.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Harland, A.

Meller, R. J.

Storry Deans, R.

Harney, E. A.

Merriman, F. B.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Hawke, John Anthony

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Templeton, W. P.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Morris, R. H.

Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Hilton, Cecil

Neville, R. J.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Nuttall, Ellis

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Oakley, T.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Homan, C. W. J.

Owen, Major G.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Pennefather, Sir John

Watts, Dr. T.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wells, S. R.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

White Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymote

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Perring, William George

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Philipson, Mabel

Wilson. Sir Charles H.(Leeds, Centrl.)

Huntingfield, Lord

Pielou, D. P.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Hurd, Percy A.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Hurst, Gerald, B.

Radford, E. A.

Womersley, W. J.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's;)

Raine, W.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Ramsden, E.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Jacob, A. E.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Remer. J. R.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

Rice, Sir Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry Barnston.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Kinloch-Cooke. Sir Clement

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hayes, John Henry

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Day, Colonel Harry

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Dennison, R.

Hirst, G. H.

Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

Dunnico, H.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Gibbins, Joseph

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Barnes, A.

Gillett, George M.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Batey, Joseph

Gosling, Harry

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Bromley, J.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Buchanan, G.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Kelly, W. T.

Charleton, H. C.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Kennedy, T.

Clowes, S.

Groves, T.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Cluse, W. S.

Grundy, T. W.

Lansbury, George

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Lawson, John James

Compton, Joseph

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Lee, F.

Connolly, M.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Lowth, T.

Cove, W. G.

Hardie, George D.

Lunn, William

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Watson, W. M. (Dunfarmline)

Mackinder, W.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

MacLaren, Andrew

Sitch, Charles H.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

March, S.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Welsh, J. C.

Maxton, James

Smillie, Robert

Westwood, J.

Montague, Frederick

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Naylor, T. E.

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Whiteley, W.

Oliver, George Harold

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Wignall, James

Paling, W.

Snell, Harry

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Stamford, T. W.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Potts, John S.

Stephen, Campbell

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Sutton, J. E.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Ritson, J.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W R., Elland)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Windsor, Walter

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Thurtle, E.

Wright, W.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Scrymgeour, E.

Viant, S. P.

Scurr, John

Wallhead, Richard C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Sexton, James

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. T. Henderson.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Warne, G. H.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-mrorow.

Criminal Justice [Money]

Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 7lA.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law with respect to the administration of Criminal Justice in England and otherwise to amend the Criminal Law, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the expenditure of local authorities under the provisions of the said Act relating to probation of offenders, and towards the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence of such sums as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct and subject to such conditions as he may with the like approval determine."—[ King's Recommendation signified. ] —[ Mr. G. Locker-Lampson. ]

I beg to move, in line 5, to leave out the words been sent to prison. Now, however, they are being cared for by these good people, and most of them turn out ultimately to be good citizens.

The objection I desire to make to this Resolution is that, according to the Amendment to be tabled to-morrow, the destination of this fund will not be the local authorities. It is quite possible that the whole amount may be paid to denominational religious organisations. Whereas I want to commend the splendid work done by such organisations, especially in London, I still believe that work is best done under the control of the State and the local authority, and that when the State sets money aside for work of this kind, or in fact any kind, that money should be paid for a direct purpose and should not be paid through any voluntary institution.

Let me explain the case a little further. I understand that in London the voluntary organisations—I think they can be reduced to two in number—who are doing probation work spend approximately £10,000 a year. The Metropolitan police fund spends an equivalent sum. That is about £20,000 spent in London annually on probation work. Most of the money spent from the police fund will go for direct purposes in the way I desire.

I presume the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Resolution does not grant the money, but only enables the Amendment to be moved in Committee. He will be in order in continuing his argument, but it seems to me he is under the impression that this Resolution actually grants the money. Of course, that is not so.

On a point of Order. I understand the hon. Gentleman is criticising the Amendment which will be proposed in Committee. I should have thought this is not the occasion for criticising an Amendment which we shall be discussing to-morrow. I notice that the hon. Gentleman has an Amendment on the Paper which I am quite willing to deal with.

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is exactly out of order on this Resolution, which is only an enabling one, but it seems to me it is unnecessary now to oppose a Resolution.

I want to keep in order, and you will, I am sure, correct me, Sir, if I am still wrong; but the position, as I understand it, is this: I have tabled an Amendment to the Money Resolution, the last four lines of which deal with the Amendment to be tabled in Committee to-morrow. Were it not, in fact, for the existence of the last four lines of the Resolution the Amendment to be tabled to-morrow would, probably, have no effect. If it is for the convenience of the Committee, I will deal only with the last four lines of the Resolution. That will probably be more in order, and the hon. Gentleman, I understand, will reply to me if I say a few words on that issue. This Resolution would give the necessary authority to the Secretary of State if the Amendment is carried as placed on the Order Paper for to-morrow. The last four lines would enable him to grant money to voluntary organisations.

8.0 P.M.

I thought we were gradually departing from the idea that the State should grant money to voluntary religious organisations. I will state the case as I see it. When a probation officer is appointed now, or, in fact, if he is appointed under the new scheme as propounded by the Secretary of State, he may be a religious denominational officer. I do not think it is a good thing for the State to grant money from public funds for denominational purposes, because the other denominations will soon come along and we shall be back once more in the old religious quarrels, which we wish to avoid. The organisations which do this work are doing it very well, and I do not criticise them.

Let me point out what I conceive to be the duty of the Government. I took a keen interest in this subject when I was at the Home Office. My suggestion to the Home Office is that they should complete the circle, and see to it that probation officers shall cover every court in the land. Having done that, the probation officer will be the pivot around which all probation work shall be performed, and the voluntary organisations can be utilised to help the probation officers in their work. Some of these probation officers employed by voluntary organisations are not paid a decent wage. Moreover, there is no superannuation allowance for them. We shall not get a proper type of person for probation work, and we shall not attract the best type of person to do probation work until the State establishes a proper system, pays a good salary to the right person, and sees to it that a superannuation allowance is granted to him at the end of his days.

If the Home Secretary proposes to utilise this £22,250 to subsidise voluntary associations, what will happen? The London voluntary societies in the last year for which figures are available spent for this purpose £10,000. If the Home Secretary is now going to say to them, "We will give you £2,000 a year to meet your expenses," the contributions of the associations may be reduced to £8,000. Probation work will then be exactly where it is now. There will be no extension of any kind.

I will now summarise the arguments which I have used. I feel sure that I can speak on behalf of every hon. Member on these benches in saying that State money shall be utilised only for the purposes originally intended in this Bill, that there shall be a complete system of probation, that the engagement of the probation officers shall be done by the local authorities, and not by the voluntary associations, that the system shall be extended to cover the whole country, and that nothing shall be done to discourage the voluntary associations to go on with their good work. I do not wish to say anything by way of criticism of their work. I suggest to the Under-Secretary to the Home Office that he should consider the points that I have raised, that he should stand by the Bill as originally introduced, that he should not hand any of this money to voluntary associations, and that we should have a proper system of probation established throughout the land under the joint control of the State and the local authorities.

I have been taken rather by surprise by the point which my hon. Friend the late Under-Secretary to the Home Office has raised. He has moved his Amendment, and I understood that he was going to argue in its favour. But he has really been arguing against the Amendment which is down on the Paper for the Committee that sits to-morrow.

With respect to the last four lines in the Financial Resolution, the Amendment to be moved to-morrow morning will have no effect. That is the point which I have tried to make.

If the hon. Member looks at his Amendment, he will see that the last four lines do not deal at all with money which is to be made payable to voluntary associations. This Amendment merely deals with the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation. That is quite a different point. The Resolution enables certain moneys to be paid out for two purposes, one purpose under the Probation Act, and, secondly, an entirely new purpose, that of maintaining persons who have been released on probation. The Amendment of my hon. Friend is directed towards cutting out that new provision. I am prepared to deal with that, but it has nothing whatever to do with the point which he has raised about money payable to voluntary societies.

That point will be raised by the Home Secretary in Committee upstairs tomorrow. The hon. Member has made some serious criticism of that Amendment and those criticisms will have to be met by the Home Secretary in person tomorrow. There may be some substance in those criticisms, but that is an absolutely different matter from this Amendment. I do not know whether my hon. Friend wants me to meet now the Amendment which he has put down. I do not know whether any other hon. Member who follows him intends to argue this Amendment from the point of view of paying the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation. If so, I would prefer to wait until they have spoken, and then I shall be prepared to answer their arguments. I think I am entitled to speak twice. I do not know whether the hon. and learned Member for Leeds South East (Sir Henry Slesser), is going to argue the Amendment from that point of view. If so, I am prepared to sit down now and to answer his arguments later.

In the first place, if you cut out these words in the Financial Resolution it means that you are going to cut out two Sub-sections of Clause 4. You are going to cut out the provision in italics in Clause 4, which enables us to pay out money for the expenses of persons released on probation, and you are also cutting out Subsection (2) of Clause 4, which makes it lawful—

Before the hon. Member proceeds further, may I say that I do not propose to deal with that point. I do not agree with the interpretation he has put upon the effect of our Amendment. As far as we are concerned, he need not worry himself with that aspect, but rather with the matter raised by my hon. Friend as to the voluntary associations.

It is a very difficult situation, because this Amendment has nothing whatever to do with the payment of money to voluntary associations. I do not want to burke discussion, but I should have thought that it would have been much more convenient to wait until to-morrow morning, at 11 o'clock. I only saw the Amendment that had been put on the Paper by the Home Secretary 15 minutes ago, and I do not suppose that any hon. Member has seen it on the Paper. I should have thought that it was much more convenient to wait until the Committee to-morrow morning, when the Home Secretary will be present, and hon. Members will be able to make speeches on the printed Amendment on the Paper.

I am afraid that I cannot agree with the view which has just been put forward by my hon. Friend. Quite apart from the Amendment, it has already been ruled that it is in order here and now to consider on this Financial Resolution the purposes for which the money is going to be spent. I consider that the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), apart from the technical meaning of this Amendment— which I think, if it was necessary, I could show covers both this matter of converting this fund to the use of the voluntary societies, and the matter which was raised by the hon. Member—was quite germane. Apart altogether from the Amendment, it is now proposed in this Resolution to enable the Committee to-morrow, effectively to pass a Clause which will have the effect of paying probation officers.

On a point of Order. Is it not the case that this Resolution merely authorises the payment of money, and that the persons to whom the money is to be paid is not a matter which comes under the Resolution at all, but may be dealt with entirely independently of the Resolution.

Before you rule on that point, may I say that it was raised before you occupied the Chair, and your predecessor ruled that we were entitled —that was why my hon. Friend opened the subject—on this Resolution to consider what would be the destination of the fund which the Resolution authorises.

It is true that this Resolution deals only with the authorisation to expend money, but it is quite impossible to dissociate that from the question as to the way in which the money is to be spent.

My point was whether it is in order to discuss on this Resolution, authorising the payment of money, suggestions which are not contained in the Resolution as to whether the money should be paid to Party "A" or Party "B."

This is not an authorisation to pay money, but an authorisation for the expenditure of money, and it is impossible to dissociate from a discussion of that authorisation the question as to the way in which the money is to be spent.

This discussion strengthens my opinion that there are some people in this House who do not wish this matter to be discussed on the Floor of the House. This objection has now been taken twice on a point of Order. I and my friends have not the slightest intention, so long as we remain in order, to allow this matter to go upstairs, whether now or later in the evening, until we have discussed it. We have had presented to us a Bill which we all thought, at any rate as far as Part I is concerned, was a most excellent Bill. It. provides, without any qualification for the appointment of competent, independent probation officers in every area in the country. As such we welcome the provision. Now, however, it is proposed to alter that proposal which the Home Secretary originally brought before the House into something entirely different. The money which we are asked to authorise now is, possibly, to be expended, not upon these independent probation officers, but may be diverted to the work of voluntary associations. Surely that is a matter which the House is entitled to consider as a whole.

I agree with what has been said by my hon. Friend as to the work of these voluntary societies. I am a magistrate, and other hon. Members are magistrates, and we all know the value of the work that is being done by these societies, but, on the other hand, when we come to be asked that these voluntary societies, holding various denominational, and, for all I know, political views—

It being a quarter-past Eight of the Clock, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.

Silver Currency

I beg to move,

The crisis which led to the debasing of the British currency, as everybody knows, started in February, 1920, when for the first time for many years the price of silver ran up to over 80d. an ounce, a very high price at which silver, considered as bullion, was of considerably more value than silver money considered as currency of the realm. Therefore it became impossible to coin any more money, since every shilling would have cost well over 1s. to produce. This was for the twentieth century a wholly unprecedented state of affairs. Since 1816 there had never been any long period in which it was financially impossible for the Mint to produce silver currency. This, not unnaturally, alarmed the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he thought that something must be done. With silver at 83d. per ounce it was impossible to continue coining, and coining was for the moment desirable. He therefore produced what has turned out, I think, to be a most unhappy Bill, to debase the contents of the British silver currency from half-crowns to sixpences by 50 per cent., and to put 50 per cent. precisely of alloy into every British piece of silver money. Under that law we are living at present, and that law has produced the condition in which the unhappy British currency is circulating. This is really in some ways a very absurd condition of affairs.

There were a few Members of the House at that time who besought the Chancellor of the Exchequer to halt for a moment, to wait a few weeks before irrevocably passing a law that would debase the British currency. There were but very few who made this opposition. My friend, Sir Gershom Stewart, who then sat for Wirral, and myself were, I believe, the only people who spoke at length and who implored the Chancellor to wait a little before putting 50 per cent. alloy into the money. We besought him to wait a few weeks, in order that it might be seen whether this crisis was permanent or whether it was but a very transient thing. He refused to listen to us. His Bill went through. Those were wondrous days, when opposition against the Government, as it then stood, was almost useless; then we lived under the stress of Welsh wizardry—a strange phenomenon which was capable of producing extraordinary results. I have seen 250 Conservative Members of this House voting for Mr. Montagu's India Bill, a thing which it would be now almost impossible to conceive, but which in those days happened. The opposition to this Coinage Bill was crushed and the Bill was passed

I hate to appear in the character of the man who comes up and says "I told you so," but occasionally one has to do so. The moment the Bill passed the silver crisis proceeded to fade away. I have taken the trouble to compile the figures from the "Times" bullion reports for the next year. At the moment the Bill was passed, on 2nd March, silver was 83d. an ounce, a rate at which it was practically impossible for coinage to proceed. On 2nd April the price was 72d. per ounce. On 2nd May it was 63d. On 2nd June it was 57d., and this was a figure at which the coinage of silver had become possible, for the moment silver gets down to 60d. an ounce or near that figure it is possible to coin under the old system and to make a little "seignorage." On 2nd November the price was 52d., and on 2nd December 44d. On 1st May, 1921, the price was 34d., which was less than half what it was when the Bill was passed, and at rates not far different from this the price of silver has remained ever since. To-day—I have verified it in the "Times" bullion report—the price is 31¼d. per ounce.

Therefore, we have distinct proof that if the Bill had been put off for a few weeks it would never have been introduced. By June it was profitable to coin at the old rate, and to-day it would be ridiculously profitable. For every 1s. coined the profit to the King on the old standard would be something like 8d. or 9d., and at the present moment, since this wretched debasement, the profit must be something like 10½d. What have we got in return for the wretched, small profit? We have got a dark speckled currency which it is a shame to gaze upon. It has twice been my lot, within the last year, to look on large sums of silver in foreign states keeping pure currency—in Spain and in Switzerland— and in each case, with dollars in one case and the five-franc piece in the other, the coins were shining and glistening and wholesome to look upon, and, though I am a person of characteristically robust patriotism, on those two occasions I felt rather ashamed of my own country, where to look upon a large mass of the existing currency in the till of a bank, or as the receipts of a meeting, is depressing.

The crisis of February-May, 1920, lasted only a few weeks. The result has been to put a permanent blemish upon us. Those who opposed the Bill foresaw many evil things from it, but the precise worst form of its results we did not foresee. That is to say, we did not know how hideous the coinage would become. In the middle of February, 1920, it was directed that the coin of the Realm was to be struck in the precise ratio of 50 per cent. silver and 50 per cent. alloy. Acts of Parliament, as everyone knows from the proverb, can do everything except change a woman into a man. Indeed, they have done something even in that direction, not ineffectively of recent years, in the matter of the franchise. But in addition to the hopeless inability on that particular point, there is one other thing that Acts of Parliament cannot do. They cannot cope with the great physical facts of such things as chemistry and metallurgy; they cannot change, for example, the ground facts of metallurgy. In consequence of that, this Bill ran up against an impossibility. Chancellors of the Exchequer, as Masters of the Mint, ought to be half metallurgists, and, incidentally, half art-critics. Unfortunately they are not generally either. As a matter of fact, the normal Chancellor walks high and emprisedly among columns of millions of pounds, paying no heed to the humble discs with which small transactions are conducted—all minor business of the Realm.

I fancy that Chancellors of the Exchequer must regard silver small change in very much the way in which they regard umbrella tickets at the British Museum or the National Gallery—as round things which serve a certain purpose, whose shape and colour are of no great importance, they being things in themselves of no value whatever to Chancellors of the Exchequer. In March, 1920, therefore, those unfortunate gentlemen, the officials at the Mint, had by Act of Parliament to begin to strike coins of the precise ratio of 50 per cent. silver and 50 per cent. some alloy or other, and then to serve them out to the nation. It is an unfortunate ground fact of metallurgy that silver does not blend satisfactorily with other metals in the proportions of 50 per cent. and 50 per cent. Hence, a series of numismatic horrors: i.e., you may put them in the same pot but they will not mix properly. They combined into a substance which, when sent out to take the usual risks of coinage, turned in most cases to a blackish-brown colour, all over in some specimens and in patches in others.

I have produced a little collection of these coins for the benefit of Members of the House. These coins they may regard as illustrative anecdotes. One of the first 1920 coins has turned a good dark khaki colour, another a lighter khaki with large green spots. That was not a very satisfactory experiment to the long-suffering officials at the Mint, nor to the public. In fact, it entailed very grievous results, for some of these coins proceeded to look at once like pennies when they had been circulated for a short time, and it is sad to think of the number of two-shilling pieces passed on as pennies to taxi-cab drivers and porters by people who afterwards discovered that they had given away much more valuable currency than they intended. No one will deny that the first of the coins in the collection I have produced would be taken in the dark for nothing but pennies. Questions were asked about this in the House, and it was then said that this sort of thing might happen to any money: that, for example, good silver money left in vaults or damp places or exposed to saltpetre would turn black. That is true; but these coins circulated in 1920, of which I collected a few specimens, were not things that had been stored in vaults. They were honest circulating medium which had passed through many hands. Naturally, considerable discontent was caused.

Questions were asked in this House, and in 1921 the Mint began to try a series of other alloys, of which I have also produced specimens for the benefit of the House. I do not know how many alloys were tried. The results were always most unsatisfactory. The first set of experiments resulted in the production of coins that turned saffron yellow. There are many of those coins still in circulation. Yesterday I received three half-crowns of that saffron-yellow colour in change for our sovereign, in the Post Office of this House. Such coins are circulating in great quantities. The saffron yellow colour was naturally criticised, and other experiments were made. After one of the first of them the coins began to break up. The combination was of such a description that isolated bits of each metal were unwillingly juxtaposed, and on the slightest persuasion began to come to pieces. Hon. Members will notice in my collection a half-crown where one part of the face of the King has come off in a thin slice, and another coin where a shield of arms, part of the reverse is gone, and a third where the whole milled margin has begun to break off from the main body of the coin. That was not a very satisfactory experiment.

Lastly, in 1924 a further set of experiments was started. It produced the most extraordinary result. During the time of the Coalition Government the various alloys always resulted in debased money in mixed browns, but in 1924 a new experiment was tried of an alloy of copper inside, with the silver concentrated on the outside. This scheme produced coins, a great many of which are in circulation, which were most handsome and shining. But, unfortunately, this coinage of 1924 has turned out to be a whited sepulchre. The moment the surface is worn through the interior becomes visible, and—here is the horror of it—the interior is bright red! The Socialist Government, whether by way of propaganda or not, produced coins which are very bright in appearance, but when the silver coating has been worn away the head of the King on one side and the shield on the other, appear of a scarlet hue. My specimen coins of the 1924 half-crowns and shillings were subjected, not to acid or to violent treatment of any kind, but to gentle attrition, such as they will ultimately go to by ordinary use: they turn a bright red. So the Socialist Government has produced bright red money, and I look forward with great horror to the fact that in three or four years masses of the money circulating among us may be a horrible looking stuff, with only some silver patches remaining among the scarlet on a disreputable surface.

I am quite sure that, morally speaking, to have base money about is very bad. If you have trash in your hand your first impulse is to get rid of it. That feeling has come upon me when in France, when the extraordinarily discoloured French franc and two-franc pieces were passing through my hands. It was a form of money which one wanted to get rid of at once, and the only surprise was that the French people were so obliging as to give one things of real value, such as dinners and taxicab drives, for stuff of that kind. The temptation was to indulge in immediate extravagance in order to get rid of it. If our coinage in a year or two assumes this red and mottled appearance, I think the moral effect on the public will be dreadful. Extravagance of the worst kind will be encouraged, and anybody who has a few shillings will desire to spend them at once, so as to free his pockets from such miserable stuff and obtain such small enjoyments as can be had in return. I have now to make my appeal. Is it not possible to revert to the old standard, or if not exactly to the old standard, to something like it? At present, supposing we reverted to the old standard, we should get the profit realizable on every ounce of silver coin, which would be at least 36 pence out of the 60. Is it worth while continuing the existence of our present stuff in order to make any comparatively small greater profit?

Here one comes across a most extraordinary problem. We were the year before last, and we are going to be this year, asked to buy back from the banks an enormous sum of silver money which the banks announce to be redundant. The banks say that their cellars are full of great quantities of silver coin which they cannot circulate, and that the amount of so-called silver at present available is more than the currency requires. In fact, we spent half a million the year before last in buying back from the banks at their facial value redundant silver coins, and I understand we are going to spend another half million in buying back in 1925 redundant coins which the public do not want. How does this square with the facts? At the moment when enormous quantities of silver money need to be withdrawn from the banks, because they cannot be circulated, the Government are —at any rate it was being done a few months ago, though I will not speak for what is happening now—circulating enormous quantities of new half-crowns and shillings of the red-cored kind I have described. You cannot have it both ways. If it is said that there is too much silver currency and that we must buy it back, why at the same time should you shoot on to the public enormous quantities of this new so-called silver money? The thing is contradictory. If it is necessary to buy back quantities of unneeded silver money there cannot be any logical necessity for striking more. You are undoing your own work.

I have a horrible suspicion that behind it there is the idea of making a little by withdrawing the good old Victorian silver money, and replacing it by this red and coppery money of to-day. I am hardly disposed to think that the Government are really desirous of turning a few pounds in that way, and while openly saying that there is too much silver money, that they are shoving a lot more of it on to the country. That is almost precisely what happened in 1549 before the reformed currency of Edward VI. There is a secret minute, written, I believe, by a very unscrupulous person, Dudley, Earl of Warwick, proposing that before there was any general reform a little more base money might be put on to the public who would not notice it because the general reform was expected. Ultimately reform did come, but meanwhile the public had swallowed a certain number of the very worst shillings ever issued in England. I trust there is no idea of that kind now.

It is very difficult for Ministers to acknowledge their own transgressions, and admit they have made mistakes—in fact they only do so in another world, like the ghost of another Earl of Warwick in the play of "St. Joan," when he admits that sometimes "political necessities have turned out to be awful mistakes." But while it is difficult to own up to one's own mistakes, it is easy to own up to the mistakes of one's predecessors or one's friends; indeed there is, I think, a certain pleasure in owning up to the mistakes of one's friends.

And now I am wishing to impress upon this sparse but sympathetic audience that I think it would be a very beautiful thing if the representatives of His Majesty's Government were to acknowledge that the political necessity of the Silver Bill of February, 1920, had proved, like the Earl of Warwick's burning of Joan of Arc, one of the great mistakes of history. I hope I shall not be regarded as saying anything contrary to the interests of my own party by suggesting that repentance for other people's sins is always pleasant, and that in this case approach to the old standard would be popular and would make for beauty. There is no need to go back to the old standard of 92 out of 100, because a slightly smaller quantity of pure silver than that will work. It is the proportion of 50/50 at present ruling under the 1920 Act that is fatal to satisfactory coinage. Incidentally, I may say that it seems an odd fact that the Mint is now striking great quantities of silver money for the Bolsheviks, the Soviet Government of Russia. It is striking them very well, and they are being coined at the rate of, I think, 75 per cent. silver and 25 per cent. alloy, or thereabouts. They have been subjected to all tests, they wear perfectly well, and they are being coined in great quantities, to the satisfaction of everybody concerned. I ask whether it is really quite consistent with national self-respect that the British Government should be coining a better quality of silver for the Soviet Government of Russia than it is for its own subjects. It does not quite square with my idea of the dignity of the British Empire or of the British Royal Mint.

I only plead for an improvement in the quality of the silver in that enormous issue which will be needed some day. I do not ask that anything should be done at present except a cessation of the striking of the copper-interior money. So long as there is superfluous silver, which we are having to buy back from the banks, it is absurd and impossible, in logic, to be striking any more money. It is not needed. There is too much silver money already. The banks are sending in every month and asking for Bradburys, which are legal tender against gold, in return for it. At any rate, let us have no more of this stuff that is being struck at the present time, and when the nation has absorbed the requisite amount of silver, let us revert to striking something which will be of a purer kind, which will stand the test of experiment, and which, as far as colour goes, will be a satisfactory thing to look upon.

That is the first half of my argument. The second half, the shorter part, and the less important part, turns on the question of art. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to be a bit of a metallurgist and a bit of an art critic. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is."] The present one, I think, is the first who might have some pretensions in that direction, and, therefore, my appeal to him is, I rather fancy, like "preaching to the converted." In fact, I hope this part of my argument may have some definite result, for I have to point out that the whole of the present art of the British coinage is abominable. In the last century, the greater part of it was produced when there was a separate person, called the Master of the Mint, who was not the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The last of them was, I believe, William Wellesley Pole—the brother of the Duke of Wellington, who changed his name to Pole—and it was he who was responsible for that real triumph of art, the George and the Dragon on the sovereign and on the five-shilling piece which bears, tucked away in minute letters, the "B.P." initials of that great Florentine artist, Baptista Pistrucchi, whom William Pole turned on to design an adequate and beautiful reverse for the more important English coins.

Has the hon. Member any of those coins to pass over to us to examine, as he did the other one?

I am afraid I have not. My collection was only designed to produce horror. The Baptista Pistrucchi St. George is a figure with adequate muscle set on a very powerful horse, and he has attacked his dragon with success. The lance is lying broken. The anæmic-looking person who figures on our present notes is not in the least similar to the Baptista Pistrucchi St. George. If you look on the chest of Baptista's formidable dragon, you will see that he has a short fragment of a spear in him, and another underneath as he is rolling on the ground. The dragon on the modern Treasury note is a most inadequate creature and has got the spear right through his back. I would point out also that St. George has been playing in rather an unsportsmanlike way; that is to say, he has attacked the dragon from behind, spearing him through the back, and the point of the spear is coming out of the dragon's crop, or whatever the thing in front is called on other winged creatures. It is obvious that St. George has only speared the dragon that way by attacking him from behind, and the fact of the whole matter is that it looks like something in the way of pig-sticking, for it is clear that a dragon with wings of that size could never have flown away. The wings of the dragon shown on that piece of paper are so small that the dragon must have been a kind of scaly ostrich, able only to run about on its legs, because the wings are quite incapable of bearing it up, and I think you will agree, on the other hand, that the legs of that dragon are so short that it is impossible that the dragon should put on any pace, and for an armed man to attack a creature that can neither fly nor run seems to me to savour of unsportsmanlike conduct.

This is only an illustration of the extraordinary state of official art in these days. As we are on the "Bradbury" at the moment, may I point out that the picture on its reverse, figuring these majestic buildings, has been treated in such a way that it, obviously, looks like a design for the side of a, biscuit box. If anybody looks at it in a dispassionate way, he will see that it ought to appear on the side of a biscuit box, with some such description as "House of Commons Crackers," or something of that kind, printed below it. It is not such a design as appears on the bank notes of any decent, self-respecting country. I do not say that the French metal currency of the present day is inspiring, but the French 100-franc note is, really, a thing of beauty and a joy for ever. Anybody who has seen it and possessed it does not want to part with it, as he does with a copper franc, but if any foreigner was shown the back of a "Bradbury," without the knowledge that it was a £l note, he would believe it was off the side of a biscuit box.

I am afraid this is a digression. When Baptista Pistrucchi passed away from the Mint, William Wyon and his family took on the designing and the engraving, and still produced very beautiful works. In fact, the earlier Victorian currency is almost as fine as the currency of William IV and George IV. It is not until 1887, the first Jubilee coinage, that there seems to have been a peaceful penetration from over the German Ocean, when the designs of Boehm were taken on for the British coinage. I submit, with all respect to our revered Sovereign Queen Victoria, under whom I lived for the first 40 years of my life, that the coinage of 1887 does not give a flattering portrait of her, and that the crown on top of her head could never be balanced there by any possible means. It is a very unsatisfactory issue indeed, and from that date forward the art of the British coinage has completely gone down. The coinage of 1893, the last Victorian issue, was a trifle better than that of 1887, but, after that, the lapse came, and the very worst issue of all is that which began in 1911 during the time of our present revered Sovereign. It is a great pity that the gentleman who executed the head of the King does not know how to represent hair. I got permission to look at the original model from which the coins were taken, and the fact remains that he does not know how to represent hair.

The reverses of these coins are terrible. The shilling and sixpence are bad copies of the Lion shilling and sixpence of George IV. The two-shilling piece is copied from Boehm's two shilling piece of the first Jubilee of Queen Victoria, 1887. It was the worst design reverse of the whole 1887 series. Anything more banal than the four square shields I cannot possibly point out. It is true they are a copy of an original design in the seventeenth century, but to put four shields in a square by an artist of merit, and to put four shields in a square by an artist of demerit, is a very different thing. The shilling of William III or James II, with the same design, is satisfactory, but in the present case the design is spoilt by the way in which the drawing of the shields has been treated. As to the half-crown it is a very fine type if it had been intended for the art of the woodcarver, but not for the art of the medallist. The way in which the edges of the shield are thrown up, and the sunk centre, certainly savour of the woodcarver and not the engraver. For a coin it is a crude design and most unsatisfactory.

9.0 P.M.

I sincerely trust the present Chancellor of the Exchequer may get rid of all these bad designs of the present coinage. He and his predecessors have had for the past four years an Advisory Council. I was beginning to think that Advisory Councils never produce anything, but I am assured that something may be done, and with all deference I have one suggestion to make to the Master of the Mint as advised by his technical Council, and it is this. There is a great opportunity at the time the coinage is revised of putting on it something really inspiring instead of the very debased types that exist at present. I want to plead for a large coin, a crown piece if you will, but at any rate a half-crown, which shall have on it this device—Britannia holding out an olive branch, and round her the memorable words which our present Prime Minister quoted to us only a few weeks ago, "Give Peace in our time, O Lord." There is no one, I hope, in this Kingdom who does not desire peace in our time, and I can imagine no more beautiful type of coinage than Britannia holding out an olive branch and expressing that wish. There is a precedent for it. I may be told that Latin is the rule, but there is one great precedent. The shillings and half-crowns of 1649–50 had the humble inscription, "God with us." I think that just as the men 1650 made their appeal to their God in those words, and put them on their coinage, so we in these troublous times might make a similar appeal on behalf of the nation, " Give Peace in our time, O Lord."

I beg to second the Motion, which has been moved so learnedly and skilfully by my hon. Friend the junior burgess of the University of Oxford, who is my own representative in this House, and also my constituent. I cannot pretend to have his supreme knowledge of the coinage, and I put the appeal to the House which he made on other grounds altogether. My hon. Friend finished his first plea on the text "Conscious as we are of one another's infirmities." In this matter I am more conscious of my own, because I have always understood, from my study of history, that a debased coinage is one of the sins of a bad Government. We have been given an example of kings and statesmen who have deliberately debased the coinage for the purposes of revenue, and I have somewhere in my mind a hazy recollection of a certain economic law called Gresham's Law which used to say that a bad coinage will always push out a good. By returning to the gold standard, we have probably escaped this danger as our silver coinage comes back to what it was in pre-War days, and is, a token coinage. But I do think an artistic coinage and a coinage which has a real value in itself is a sign of the greatness of a nation, and that the issue of 1920 is hardly worthy of this country.

I would ask the House to consider the situation from the points of view of some future archæologist interested in the coinage of this period. Among my constituents are learned men whose works I must confess I do not always read, but whose opinion I respect; learned men who spend much time and go to much trouble in excavating the remains of ancient civilisations. I will ask the House to imagine Macaulay's famous, if somewhat fortunate, New Zealander, instead of standing on London Bridge to gaze at the remnants of this great city of ours, as a man of this type who excavates In ruins, and to imagine his comments on the emaciated coinage that had been dug up. In one place he would discover that there had been found a brown two-shilling piece, with green spots on it. In another place a coin with its edge cut off, or even one which had turned mildly pink. His comments, couched in the learned language which such folk are accustomed to use, would run something after these lines: "Between the years 1918 and 1925 —or whatever the period exactly was—the Government of Great Britain, being very short of money, in order to keep up the supply, grossly debased the silver coinage." Of course, he would add a foot-note that there was only a paper coinage, and that there was no gold coinage then, but he would go on to speak of the extraordinarily bad effect of debasing the coinage. Such a point of view might be considered by ourselves as the trustees of a great Empire, and for our prestige as a great nation, with a historical past, and, I trust, a historical future. If we do that, we shall get back to the desirability of having the silver coinage of a greater intrinsic value than at present.

After all, it is less than 200 years since the great mass of the Irish people were up in arms against the suggestion of the Government of the day to debase the coinage. Hon. Members will no doubt recollect that the suggestion by Lord North's Government to farm out to Mr. Wood the copper coinage in Ireland, which very nearly created a Revolution.

That showed the healthy state of public opinion, and something of the kind might be welcomed to-day. We should always, as citizens of this great Empire, wish we had a silver coinage, which was a silver coinage, and which had not so much dross in it. The figures which the hon. Gentleman who moved the Resolution quoted suggested, to my mind, that it might be a very profitable business for those with skilful fingers but nefarious minds to turn their attention to making coins for themselves, for the present silver shilling piece has an intrinsic value, I think, of something in the neighbourhood of 2½d. You could turn that shilling out at 6d. on an unsuspecting public, and make a very comfortable profit. We know the Government have always made a big profit on their silver coinage, and I think they might further reduce the temptation put in the way of the citizen by the present situation. I join in the appeal made by the Mover of the Resolution that the Government may take this matter in hand, and as soon as possible get the country back to a more suitable silver coinage.

I am not going to pose as a monetary expert, but I want to support the Motion moved by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman). I agree with that portion of the Resolution which states that the present state of the silver currency of the Realm is unsatisfactory. I quite agree with that, though for a different reason to that put forward by the Mover of the Resolution. I admired the simple way in which the hon. Member passed over the coins he had on view to the Socialist Benches. I trust, however, that the fact that they were safely returned and intact will for ever disabuse the minds of hon. Members opposite that we on this side believe in a big "sharing out." However, I agree with the statement that the silver coinage is unsatisfactory. It is unsatisfactory inasmuch as there is not sufficient of it coming to the class of people that we on these benches represent.

The Mover of the Resolution spoke of the superfluity of the silver coinage. I can assure him and the House generally that the people we represent do not find their representatives claiming that it is superfluous. It is unsatisfactory because so little comes their way. The hon. Member spoke of getting rid of the present coinage as quickly as possible. I can assure him there is no great difficulty amongst the working people of this country in getting rid of such small numbers of silver coins as come in their direction. Therefore, from that viewpoint it is certainly unsatisfactory so far as we are concerned. In regard to the shape of it, I once heard a statement to the effect that the spendthrift claimed that the coinage was wrong because coins were made to roll; that the miser claimed that, because it was flat, it was made to pile up. I believe that that applies in this civilised country of ours to money generally. There is one portion of the community that piles it up very considerably, but from the portion that we have the honour to represent it rolls with an alarming rapidity. If the coinage could be made globular instead of as it is—flat or round—it might roll more in our direction, and it is unsatisfactory, from our point of view, to that extent.

I was rather struck by the fact that the Mover of the Resolution mentioned our making silver coins for the Soviet Government, because I always understood the Soviet Government had neither money nor anything else. It is rather strange, therefore, to know that we are making better coins for broken, dilapidated, worn-out, ill-used Russia, than we are able to get for ourselves. But I was able to foreshadow what the hon. Gentleman said because I am in possession of one of those Russian coins. [An HON. MEMBER: "Pass it over!"] Perhaps I have made a mistake in exposing this coin here, because we have heard so much in the past about some of us being bought with Bolshevic gold, that I am laying myself open to the charge of being bought with Bolshevic silver! However, this coin is certainly not only apparently of better alloy than our own coin, but certainly it is of far better design, although it does bear on its obverse side a design which I know is not exceedingly popular in this country at the present moment. For these reasons I support the first part of the Resolution in regard to the unsatisfactory state of the silver coinage, because, as I say, the people we represent get an insufficiency of it. I turn to the latter part of the Resolution, which deals with designs on the reverse of the pieces. The Mover of the Resolution said he would like to see a figure of Britannia holding out an olive branch. I would like to see that olive branch held out to the poor of our country, to the ex-service men who are being struck from their pensions, to their widows, to the unemployed, and to the suffering people generally whom we are all endeavouring so earnestly, I think, to help. When the Mover came to the words he wanted put on the coins I thought his remarks savoured of political propaganda. I would suggest another possible design for the reverse of the coin. I think it would be an exceedingly appropriate one, and bear a relation to the remarks I have already made. It could be designed by the gentleman with the, to me, unpronounceable name who was mentioned on one occasions by the Mover, or by one of our great artists. I suggest that the figure might be the figure of one of our workpeople unable to find work in our wealthy, Christian and civilised country, although highly skilled, and hawking his body from employer to employer. Or it might possibly be his widow and family, left to the mercy of this great country of ours, without sufficient of silver or copper or anything else. As to the design of the notes that were mentioned, I am afraid these pass so rapidly through the hands of the people that they do not know whether it is this noble pile of buildings or what it is on the back of them. Or, again, it might be a figure of a crippled ex-service man. Some of them, in the deep and honest bitterness of their hearts, have returned their medals to me; I have had a hatfull of them that I have been asked to hand back to the Prime Minister, to hand back to His Majesty. What a tragedy, that these men, decorated for bravery on the field, who should be proud and glorying in their right to wear them, should be brought to thinking that way! On the reverse we might have one of these crushed and broken of our people, not with the words, as suggested by the hon. Member, "Give peace in our time, O Lord," but, "Give us justice in our time." If that were added to the reverse of our silver coinage it would beautify it by bringing more into line with the tragedy of the position of the people we represent, and though we cannot get the coins globular, so that they will roll our way the quicker, if the humanity of our people would give us a system under which they could be spread more evenly throughout the country, I would be prepared wholeheartedly to support the Resolution.

I do not propose to follow the Mover of this Resolution either in his historical or in his æsthetic references. But I hope he will allow me to say how very much I enjoyed the latter part of his speech. In regard to the first part of the Resolution, however, which runs: fore, unless the hon. Baronet is going to say that he credits the Government of that day with most unnatural powers of foreseeing the future, three alternatives only lay open to them— either to issue currency notes of 10s. or 5s., or to go on producing silver currency at a loss, or to reduce the fineness of the silver currency. They chose the last-named course, and, in my humble opinion, very rightly.

If I may digress for a moment before I pass on, the Mover of the Resolution made some mention of silver coins that were minted here for Russia, and animadverted on the fact that they are of a finer currency than the coins being produced at the present time for this country. With all deference to the hon. Member who has just spoken, any metallurgical expert will tell you that coins of 750 fineness are invariably very brittle owing to the peculiarities of certain alloys used in these proportions. There is any amount of authority for that statement, and I suggest to the hon. Member that if he were to take some of those Russian coins and stamp on them he would realise the truth of this metallurgical information. Ever since I went to the East many years ago as a humble member of one of the big Eastern banks, I have known something about coins and coinage, and what I have told the House is an incontrovertible metallurgical fact.

With all deference to the Mover I oppose this Resolution on two main grounds. In the first place no speaker so far has touched upon the question of coinage profit. In view of the oratory we have had in the House in the last five or six months, especially from the benches above the Gangway, we cannot lose sight of the question of profit. The pre-War output of our silver currency ranged round about £40,000,000 every year. As to what the amount is now, I am afraid I must throw myself on the mercy of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who will perhaps tell us later. Taking the average for the last three years, I should imagine the annual output is considerably bigger than pre-War and the profit in coining is by no means inconsiderable. The second ground is that it is obviously, for reasons that I do not need to go into here, very undesirable continually to change the currency. There must necessarily be a certain amount of dislocation when we debase or reduce the fineness of the currency, or when we again raise the standard of purity, and I suggest that that consideration must not be overlooked. There are one or two other considerations which must be taken into account before we can possibly consider, and I sincerely hope that in the years to come we shall consider, getting back to the pre-War fineness of 925. Before we can do that with what I call any certainty whatever, we ought to consider whether the world's output of silver is sufficient to place it beyond the bounds of all possibility that the position we were faced with in 1920 does not recur. In the period 1910 to 1913 the average yearly output of silver was 228,000,000 fine ounces. From 1914 to 1917 it dropped to 178,000,000 fine ounces. From 1918 to 1923, the period with which we are most closely concerned now, it has risen again to 195,000,000 fine ounces, and though tending the right way it is by no means a sufficient quantity, as compared with the pre-War output, to render any reversion to pre-War purity completely without risk. There are many uncertainties.

I hesitate always to revert to the country which I know so well, but I must in these circumstances. Both India and China are very large factors in the consumption of silver. It is impossible to tell exactly—no one can foresee—what the price of the precious metals will be in any one year. In 1920 India was presented by the experts of the Babington Smith Committee with what they hoped would turn out to be a stable gold exchange standard. It cost the Government of India, in their effort to maintain that standard, about £25,000,000 sterling. It brought many small firms, and some big firms also to the verge of bankruptcy. They could not see at that time what the future price of precious metals would be. One cannot see it even now. When the Sukkur Barrage is brought into operation, we shall put 3,000,000 more acres under cotton cultivation in India. The present favourable balance of trade in India shows therefore every possibility of growing more and more. Last year India balanced her trade by importing in one year no less than £30,000,000 of gold. It is quite likely she will swing back to her old love, silver. No one can tell whether she will or whether she will not, when she will or when she will not, but when she does, the House will allow me to assure them, it will be a very important factor in the world consumption of silver. Then take China. China has illimitable possibilities. I do not suggest it will occur in our decade or in the next decade, but if she should settle down politically it would give an impetus to her trade generally. The quantity of silver China might conceivably import of the world's output is impossible to over-estimate. As an hon. Friend reminds me, East Africa is another potent factor in the uncertain quantity of endeavouring to gauge what the world's consumption may be.

A few years ago we could only rely, as we had to rely in India, on the Pittman Act. The Pittman Act proved to be salvation not only for India, but also for this country. 350,000,000 standard dollars, I think, were taken from the Federal Reserve and sold to this country and India at a price of 101½ cents fine or the equivalent of 49½d. per ounce standard. I am glad to say it was a transaction mutually profitable to America, India and this country, because it was replaced. I think I am correct in saying by the United States of America at considerably under this price, thereby giving them a very excellent profit and saving India from inconvertibility which, in that country, would have been a great disaster at that time. Perhaps the Financial Secretary will answer one or two points on which I have some doubts. There is the question of forgery. Forgery of silver coinage will be stimulated if the amount of silver in silver coinage is small rather than bis;. It gives an inducement to the counterfeiter or forger to go along that very slippery downward path. I should be very glad if he would tell us whether forgery is on the down grade or the up grade. In conclusion, I think one can sum up the position of the moment by saying that silver has for a very long time been in this country a token, and a token that passes, not because of its intrinsic value, but because of its relation to the standard coin, which is the sovereign.

Again I have to throw myself upon the mercy of the Financial Secretary. I would like him to answer this question. The definition which I have just given to the House and with which I trust the House will agree was in itself up to a very few weeks ago a very sound one, because then we had a convertible currency. That is to say we could take Bank of England notes to the Bank of England and receive gold. We now have an inconvertible currency. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will elaborate on this point I have raised. Finally, is the Bank of England under any obligation to give us gold for silver? I really do not know. Silver is legal tender up to 40s. of course, but whether that applies to the Bank of England or not I cannot say. I hope the Financial Secretary will tell me. It will be very interesting to hear whether or not it is so, because if by any chance the Bank of England is under an obligation to give gold for our present silver currency. It again raises a point of very considerable interest. In conclusion, I must, if I may, express my regret that I am unable to agree with this Resolution moved by a member of my own Party. I trust that in the few words that I have said the hon. Baronet will understand that I am not putting forward my suggestions in a contentious spirit, but I do not think the time is ripe for reverting to pre-War purity of our silver currency.

I do not intend to endeavour to argue the points which have been raised by the hon. Member who has just spoken. But there are one or two contentions in the speech of the Mover on which I am inclined to join issue. In the first place, he raised particularly strong objection to the design on the reverse of the shillings and sixpences recently issued—but the design happens to be the crest of my old regiment, and I protest against its removal from the currency of the realm. He also objected to the design on the one pound notes. He forgot to mention that the late Mr. Gibbon, in a certain historical work which probably is not unknown to the hon. Member himself, gives us some information as to the patron saint of this country. It appears that he was a contractor who, by supplying the Roman army of that day with bacon of inferior quality, amassed a considerable fortune. The idea of the killing of a dragon by a bacon merchant is admirably carried out on these notes, for the killing is represented as being done in exactly the sort of way you would expect a fraudulent bacon merchant to kill dragons. Therefore, from the aesthetic point of view, the criticism falls to the ground, and so far from the original St. George being superior as a work of art to the present St. George, the reverse in respect of the merits of those two designs.

The speech of the Mover contained also a grave inconsistency. I think he objected to the silver coinage of the present day on the ground that it is a very perishable thing and that in a very short space of time the greater part of that coinage will have disappeared. Yet in another part of his speech the hon. Member proceeds to criticise the aesthetic qualities of that coinage and he asks whether it is not highly desirable that the abominable designs which at present disgrace the coinage of this country should disappear at the earliest possible moment. I hope that subsequent speeches in this Debate will go more closely into that question and possibly explain away the apparent inconsistency. The points that I wish those who support this Motion to answer before the Debate closes are these. First, the inconsistency of calling for a more enduring coinage when the hon. Member has said that the existing coinage is a disgrace to the country; and secondly, the view that the design on the currency notes portrays more faithfully a fraudulent bacon merchant killing a dragon than does the design on the sovereign.

I am emboldened to take part in this Debate because I feel that in common with myself the bulk of hon. Members of this House do not understand this subject in the very least, and, therefore, it is possible to hold forth on a subject of this kind without being convicted in all quarters of an ignorance of the subject. What surprised me in the speech of the hon. Member who moved this Motion was his moderation. When I read the Resolution, I discovered that my hon. Friend is naturally concerned with the design on the reverse of the coinage and with the nature of the image of the Sovereign on the observe of the coinage. Attention is drawn in the Resolution to the unsatisfactory state of that design. I think it could be greatly improved, and I say without fear of con- tradiction that the present state of our silver coinage from an artistic point of view is a disgrace to this country and our Empire at large.

I would just like to tell the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that not very long ago I was travelling in a foreign country, and the subject being discussed at the dinner table turned on art. I attempted to show that, after all, this country artistically, was not so deplorably backward as my foreign friends seemed to imagine, whereupon one of them produced an English half-crown and said, "How can you claim that you are an artistic nation when you produce a coin of this kind"? I listened with great interest to the remarks of the hon. Member for Stroud (Sir F. Nelson), who argued with great force and reason that this is an unfortunate time to inaugurate a reform of this character because of what might happen at some future date. I have no doubt that in the past my hon. Friend has been confronted with difficult problems requiring a certain amount of foresight, and I am sure that on those occasions he did not allow timid counsels to affect his judgment.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being present—

I will tell my hon. Friend why it is that this reform should be brought about forthwith. The reason is that, as the hon. Member who moved the Motion said, a debased currency is bad for our people, while a reformed silver coinage is good, and would be complementary to the establishment of a gold standard for external trade. There is no doubt whatever that with a sound currency, if people know that the money they are handling is real money instead of base currency, and that we have gone back again to something like the pre-War standard, it is of great moral value to the people of this country. I know perfectly well the argument that this is merely a fiduciary currency, that you could just as well make your currency out of bone chips, or buttons, or anything else you like, but the fact nevertheless does remain that the consciousness in the mind of the people that another milestone has been reached towards the restoration of normal events after the War is of great moral value to the people of this country. I know what the reply of my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will be. It will be that he cannot afford this concession. I would like to remind him, however, that in the history of this country there have been two types of people—those who debased the currency and those who reformed it. Is my right hon. Friend going to go down to history numbered amongst those who put more copper into the silver, or as one who reformed the coinage and gave us a sound currency? I am confident that, if it were left to my right hon. Friend himself, he would restore our currency to its ancient purity, so that he might be remembered, not amongst those who debased it, but as a man who, in a time of great difficulty, took his courage in both hands and gave us back, not merely our ancient silver coinage, but also a coinage artistically worthy of this great country.

I wish to intervene in this Debate, because it seems to me very gratifying that we should be discussing the question of the artistic merit of some national enterprise like coinage. I have sat in this House for several months as a humble student and learner of the work of this Parliament, and our whole time has seemed to be taken up with questions of the distribution of wealth, matters affecting commerce, and other subjects of that kind; and, although, no doubt, these things are extremely important, yet, as a Member of Parliament who follows very humbly in the work of William Morris and Walter Crane, those older and more aesthetic Socialists of the 'eighties, I do welcome the interest that is being taken in the art and quality of the work which is done by the State. I shall be interested to hear whether the Government will say that they are satisfied with the designs which now appear on our coinage. It seems to me that, both in coinage and in seals, and in all these matters of art and quality, there has been a very serious deterioration in the skill and in the beauty and quality of the work. If I am not out of order in discussing the question of seals, which illustrate what I am saying, we do find, for example, if we compare the effigy on the Great Seal of to-day with that of the time of Queen Elizabeth, that something has gone out of the artistic work, and I think the same is very true of our coinage.

I am glad that the hon. Member who has moved this Motion has not only asked the House to consider the purity of the coinage, but also the artistic merit and the historical interest of the effigies on the coinage. I believe that an enormous amount of improvement is possible in the designs of our coins at the present day. I think that, like most other things, they are markedly worse than the things which were done many hundreds of years ago. There is nothing which has deteriorated more than the quality of coins, and those of us who are interested in numismatics will see with grief how the delicacy of the ancient coinage has been superseded by crude and vulgar designs at the present time. I feel that it is almost impossible in the present age to hope that any coinage will really be beautiful. I do not know when the Treasury propose to reconsider the question of the design of the silver coinage, or how much longer the present shillings and sixpences and other coins are going on; but I think that this is an occasion to urge upon the Treasury that, when the time does come for a new design for the coinage, they should take far more trouble to get those coins beautiful than has been the case in the past. Coins are objects which everybody holds very dear. I do not know that anyone is indifferent to coinage, and, since a coin is a thing which people tend to look at, and sometimes even to cherish, I think a case is made out for making our coins beautiful.

I should like to ask how these designs come to be accepted at the present time. Are they open to public competition? I do not know if answers can be given to these questions, but I think the House would like to know. Are they open to public competition? Is any intimation given that a new design would be considered by the Treasury, and are young artists and all the people interested in these things invited to compete? I do not know. Perhaps the House knows. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us in what way he secures, that he gets, the very best quality and skill and design in his coinage. I think this Resolution, therefore, if we can bring to the notice of the Treasury the importance of taking care that our coins are beautiful, is well worth while. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us how it is that we get coins which I do not think anyone will defend as works of artistic beauty. With regard to the question of purity, I do not propose to trespass. I do not pretend to understand the mysteries of alloys and the debasement of coins, and it is a subject on which I shall not touch. I have only intervened because I am concerned to see that the coins, like all other public effort, are as beautiful as they can possibly be. I think a great deal of the debasement that has gone on in our coinage is not so much due to lack of taste as to lack of interest in the coinage. I think people do not always care—Governments have not always cared—to see that they have got the very best. There is a revival undoubtedly going on in the world, and in this country, in particular, in craftsmanship, and there are being educated to-day very skilled craftsmen who, if they were given the opportunity, could produce very beautiful designs. I want to know what chance this new school of craftsmen are being given by the Treasury, and what sort of reward they are likely to expect if they present a design which the Treasury decide to put into execution.

10.0 P.M.

The question of historical interest has been raised. I always think one cannot do better in these matters than go backward. That may be considered a reactionary sentiment, but I think it is certainly true of coinage, and I believe, in a great many ways it would be wise to consider how far the designs of some of the ancient coins which have been used in the past could be revived to-day. We have, in the British Museum and other institutions, collections of practically all the silver coins which have even been used in this realm, and it would be educational, it would be of historical value, and it would be of patriotic value if some of those old designs were revived in the modern coinage. I very much object to the Latin abbreviations which appear in the coinage to-day. We get a number of words— about two letters of each—which people do not understand in describing the King's style. I think the thing ought to be done properly and intelligibly. When people see words like "F. D. Ind. Imp." to describe the King's style, they do not understand what it means Some of the words might be left out. There are certain titles which might easily be left out, but whatever is put in ought to be put in in full, and not in an abbreviated form which no one can understand. For these reasons I wish to press upon the right hon. Gentleman that from every point of view consideration should be given to this Motion, seriously, and that when the next time comes for the production of a new design for the coinage it should be worthy of the country, worthy of the best art we can produce and a coin which will favourably compare with any other coin in the Empire. For that reason I support the Motion, and I hope one of the results of it will be that we shall have a statement from the right hon. Gentleman showing that the Treasury realise the importance and the responsibility which attaches to them in getting the very best type of coinage they can possibly procure.

The coinage of this country was debased during the time of the Coalition. It was only what one would have expected. There was a blend made of silver and an inferior metal. There was a coalition, in fact, made of the coinage from which we have not yet entirely recovered. I should like to see a restoration of the purity of the coinage of the country, and I wish, when the gold standard was being re-introduced and reaffirmed recently, an attempt had been made, not only to deal with the silver coinage as a token, but also to re-establish it as part of the standard of value, because nothing could have been better. It would have given us an increased standard, which the trade of all the world needs so badly, and would have opened up all the financial resources of China and India to our trade. I think we have been misguided, and all civilised countries have been misguided, for many years in enforcing one standard upon the merchandise and upon the trading of the world. It would have been much better to have the double standard, which used to be the standard up to the 18th century. If we are to make alterations in the coinage, I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury might take into consideration the possibility of making it possible to establish the decimal coinage. That would be an immense convenience to the whole community, and a colossal convenience to all accounting and industry of every sort and description. It would simplify a great deal the studies of the rising generation, and give them more time for other and more elevated pursuits than simply learning the vagaries of our arithmetic.

We have had coins of various kinds in this country, and I suggest that the Treasury, in view of the changes which are being made in insurance, and otherwise, might take into consideration the re-establishment of the old great, a most desirable coin which I believe was instituted in England in 1351, and in Scotland in 1358. It long remained in existence in Scotland. Could anything be more desirable at present when the employer of labour and the employé have to pay 4d., than that you should have a handy coin for each of them to contribute. I recollect reading that when it was abolished in 1858 an indignant Member for Dumbarton asked the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Benjamin Disraeli—it was considered then a peculiarly Scottish coin—why it was that this typically Scotch coin had been abolished, and Disraeli, departing from his usual historical accuracy, is reported to have said that the fourpenny bit was originally invented for the purpose of promoting generosity amongst Scotsmen, but as it had entirely failed in its object it did not seem necessary further to continue it. I think also that after the passing of the recent Act in connection with the Church of Scotland, and the union of the two Churches, there will be a great many more people attending the churches of Scotland. It is possible that even the Glasgow Labour Members, who speak with disparagement of that great historic institution, my resume their earnest devotions

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member entitled to make this disparaging reference to the Glasgow Labour Members? I think they may have a better record of church attendance than the hon. Member himself.

I withdraw at once anything that I have said in regard to the hon. Member. I was simply speaking on this point, because I thought the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) had suggested that the Church of Scotland did not apply to the vast majority of the people of Scotland. I want to give a most unqualified contradiction to that statement, because as a regular attender at the services of the church it is my experience that a large majority of the people of Scotland do pay attention to the divine ordinance.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is in Order on the Motion now before the House to discuss the ecclesiastical affairs of Scotland, or to attack Scottish Members who are not here to defend themselves, particularly when the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) did not put that point of view upstairs when the Church of Scotland Bill was going through Committee?

The hon. Member for Argyll is suggesting the issue of a new coin for Scotland. It is not for me to say whether or not that will have any ecclesiastical effect.

I hoped that it might mean a 25 per cent. increase in the donations of certain Members of this House towards ecclesiastical services. Scotland has had many different kinds of coinage. It is recorded that the Scottish people used to exchange nails for coins. That was in the times when iron was a metal, as in ancient Sparta, and was used for the exchange of goods as token. I hope this Debate will have some result, and that the Treasury will take this opportunity of wiping out the somewhat discreditable coinage which has been going round for some time past. One only gets a brief glimpse at coins to-day, for when one changes one of the somewhat anæmic Bradburys into silver coins, the celerity with which the money goes is such that one has scarcely time to view the features on the coin.

As trade reasserts itself and industry improves and money becomes more plentiful, I trust we shall get some token which will be more in keeping with the dignity of this country when we go down to posterity. One hon. Member spoke of Macaulay's New Zealander looking at St. Paul's Cathedral from the ruins of Waterloo Bridge. He had better come here soon or he will be too late. The real history of a country or of a party is more judged from its coinage than from any other token which it leaves behind. Pictures, works of arts and buildings disappear, but not so a nation's coinage. Posterity, thousands of years afterwards, finds tokens of that coinage which, if we have made the coinage worthy of our nation, vindicates for all time the character, the calibre and the moral and spiritual standard of the nation. That is the result that we may look to from the beauty and stability of a nation's coinage. I therefore ask the Financial Secretary of the Treasury to vindicate the present generation by establishing a better coinage.

The House has enjoyed the very varied points of view which have been put before us in this rather academic Debate. We have had the historical point of view put by the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) who moved the Resolution, and we have ended with the extreme modernist views of the hon. Member for Argyllshire, who seemed entirely oblivious of the lessons of history. He proposes that we should go back to silver and gold, circulating apparently on equal terms. If there be any lesson in currency history, it is that that system is impossible, and that if once you try to get two metals circulating on equal terms at a fixed ratio of value, you are landed in the insoluble difficulty of Gresham's law—that the fluctuation of value will always drive out that metal which for the moment is most valuable.

Has the right hon. Gentleman ascertained the views of the Lord President of the Council? I think he would disabuse him of that point of view.

We have quite enough coinage difficulties in these days without attempting the experiment of bimetallism. The hon. Member who moved the Resolution gave us the other extremes. He was so far back in the realms of history that he suggested it was difficult for us to depart from the existing system because we should not like to criticise our predecessors. He said it would be rather a beautiful acknowledgment on our part of the mistakes of those who had gone before, if we would admit that they had been wrong. I do not think that the motives which he suspects are at all responsible for our maintaining the policy which was embodied in the Silver Currency Bill of 1920. We have maintained that policy, not because we should feel any hesitation about condemning the action of a Government that has gone before, but because we believe that in present conditions that coinage policy is, on the whole, justified, and that it would be certainly premature and ill-advised to make any further change at the present time.

It is true that the departure from the old standard of 9·25 decimal parts was made under the urgent necessity of silver having reached a value of about half a crown above melting point, 66 pence per ounce. Even now, when silver is far below the melting point—it is only a little over 31 pence per ounce—in these hard times we could hardly afford the very expensive currency which we used to have. The hon. Member for Oxford University said that Spain and Switzerland still have beautiful silver coins enough to escape the sufferings and financial results of the War. Quite apart and results of the War. Quite apart from the necessity which came to a head in 1920, I think there is a great deal to be said for the view that in these days we cannot afford the extravagant coinage which we used to have before the War. Before the War, when this silver token currency contained nearly twice as much of the precious metal as that which we have to-day, the average value of a shilling was only about 4d., and with the changes in value we have not gone very far from that standard to-day, when the silver in the shilling is worth about 3d. The hon. Member for the Stroud Division (Sir F. Nelson) asked whether the change in the silver constituents of our coinage had led to an increase in counterfeiting. I believe not, and there is no reason why it should be so, because the surface of our present coins is pure silver. They are dipped in acid to eliminate the copper and give them a very pure silver surface.

In the case of any coin which has not got a pure silver surface the facilities in that respect would be no greater than existed before the War, but I am not ashamed to admit, in spite of the sentiment of the hon. Member who moved this Resolution, that we are guided by financial considerations. Before the War the Royal Mint used to bring in a handsome profit. Now it is involving us in a loss, in spite of the depreciated silver currency, of about £500,000 a year. The reason for this change is that after the War there was a very great expansion in currency. The hon. Member for Stroud asked how much currency was now in circulation. It is a little difficult to say exactly, but the high-water mark, I believe to have been about £60,000,000 worth of silver coins, and the estimate of the coinage in circulation to-day is about £47,500,000. That very great expansion, followed by a sudden contraction owing to the decrease in the demand for currency and falling trade, naturally involved a very heavy cost to the Exchequer, because this coinage went to the banks and accumulated and had to be redeemed by the Treasury at its face value.

We have had to find the cost of £12,500,000 face value of silver coin. £7,000,000 of that has gone into the currency note reserve, but the notes issued against it are shown as being part of the fiduciary issue, uncovered by gold or its equivalent. £5,500,000 has been melted down. In that way we have avoided a very heavy loss on the redemption of this coin. We have melted down, converted, £23,500,000 face value of the old 9·25 fine coinage, and we have realised £5,250,000 surplus bullion value out of that quantity. It has not been spread uniformly over the whole period, but if hon. Members will look at the estimates for the Mint they will see that we are getting a very valuable contribution in the present year We are melting down this year, owing to the restriction of circulation, £1,000,000 worth of the old fine silver currency. Out of that we are going to get a bullion value of £444,000. The difference between that and the £1,000,000 would have been a dead loss to the country, but on the other side we are recoining £1,500,000 of this old currency. When we supply the necessary alloy we make on that, out of the bullion, a profit of £288,000 by the sale of that surplus. That reduces the loss which we shall have to face by drawing in the £1,000,000 of coin during the current year, by nearly £300,000.

The House will see that the hon. Member who moved this Resolution was rather understating the financial importance of the matter when he said that we were actuated by the unworthy motives of trying to save a few pounds. After all, the function of a subsidiary coinage does not really depend upon the silver content. The coinage is valuable because it is exchangeable for gold or for the equivalent of gold. The hon. Member for Stroud asked whether nowadays you could exchange it for gold. Under the Gold Standard Bill which we discussed a fortnight ago, he will remember that legal tender in this country can be exchanged for gold, not in coin, but in the rather awkward coinage unit of 60 ounces fine worth, about £1,700 apiece. It is not really because we can exchange this silver currency into gold that it passes freely. It is rather because it can be exchanged into what is the equivalent of gold. I think that the hon. Member who moved the Resolution forgot that the prime function of coinage is to be a satisfactory currency, rather than a collection of works of art.

I will define a satisfactory currency as a currency which passes freely, which enjoys public confidence, and is not easily forged. I believe that the existing coinage enjoys all those qualities. The hon. Gentleman made complaints as to its appearance. He said that it flaked and broke very readily, and he passed round a very interesting series of specimens which showed those bad qualities. That flaking and breaking took place only when the triple alloy of silver, copper and nickel was in use up to 1922, and the whole of that trouble has been eliminated since the Mint dropped out the nickel and limited the alloy to pure copper. Of course, at the time when this coinage first went into currency, there was very great pressure, and the normal inspection was to some extent relaxed, but there is really no trouble at the present time from the breaking of the coins. The hon. Member told us that the colour used to be very unsatisfactory and that the various coins of a red colour which were among his specimens were due to a process of attrition to which he had subjected them. I am afraid the hon. Member has given us prima facie evidence that he is guilty of an offence of a very serious character under the Coinage Offences Act of 1861, which provides that:

"Whosoever shall impair, diminish, or lighten any of the Queen's current silver coin shall be liable at the discretion of the Court to be kept in penal servitude etc."

This is not silver coinage. It is half and half. The word "silver" only covers silver, and not half . and half.

I am afraid at the same time that the hon. Member is liable to very severe penalties for having tampered with the coins of the realm in the way he described. Even if he is right, and if these coins do not throughout wear to the same white colour, if the blanched surface obtained by dipping into acid eventually wears off, it cannot be for a great many years, and then we shall be able, if we still have this coinage in existence, to re-coin at no more than the present price of about one-third of a penny per shilling.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try dropping them on a beery counter, and observe the result?

The real answer I must make to the Mover of the Motion— I think he was out of the House when I gave the figures—is that we cannot under present conditions afford the money which would be necessary to re-issue fine coins, because the loss, which we have avoided and the profit which we have made, would be completely reversed. Therefore, I cannot possibly hold out to the hon. Member any prospect of early legislation on the lines suggested in the Motion. The other part of his speech was devoted to the unsatisfactory design of our present coins. As the Treasury is not financially affected by this matter of design, I am in the happy position of being able to express my sympathy with his veiws. Under the policy already announced by the Government, when we have sufficient experience of the condition of affairs which will develop under our new system of a gold standard, Treasury notes will shortly be transferred to the Bank of England, and no doubt he will have the opportunity of making his views as to design heard by the authorities of the hank. As to the coinage design, I quite agree there are many grounds for criticism. Anybody who looks at the back of a shilling or a sixpenny-piece cannot help feeling very uncomfortable at the appearance of the lion with three very serious tumours in his tail, and I do not think anybody can be pleased with the very unsatisfactory-looking numeral on the back of the threepenny-piece, but it is not very easy to reconcile artistic ideas with traditional views as to coins, and most of our present coinage is a more or less debased edition of the traditional patterns which the hon. Member mentioned during his speech. The Mint nowadays has the advantage of an Advisory Committee, which is examining as to the possibility of producing more satisfactory designs for our coinage. It is not altogether easy, on the spur of the moment, to find satisfactory designs. The hon. Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) asked whether we would have a public competition. Well, I am told by the Mint Advisory Committee that they are not satisfied that public competition is altogether the best method, because it is not every sculptor who is a medallist, and the best way of getting satisfactory designs for coinage is to encourage medallic designers and to increase the scope and demand for their work. The hon. Member who started this very interesting Debate is a medallic expert, of great reputation, and I am quite sure that the Mint Advisory Committee would very much value his assistance and advice, and I can assure the House that the Government do view with sympathy the suggestion that our coinage can be improved. No legislation is necessary for that. It can be done by Order in Council under an Act passed, I think in 1870, and I hope that those who are interested in this matter, and especially the hon. Member to whom the House is indebted to-night for having raised it, will communicate with the Mint Advisory Committee and will give them the benefit of their assistance.

There is only one word which I am moved to say by some of the last remarks of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in regard to paper currency. In answer to a supplementary question in this House not very long ago, he said it must be, at any rate, some considerable time before there was any change of that kind made in regard to the present Treasury notes, and what I would suggest to him is this, that as he has based, and quite rightly based, his defence of the present base coinage on the grounds of economy and cupidity, there will be a very serious position to face in that respect when any change is made in regard to the paper currency. Paper currency, in regard to its manufacture and general utility at the present time, is, I believe, admittedly, a very great success, and if the immense profit which is made by the Treasury, owing to the waste through loss of Treasury notes, is lost to the Treasury without sufficient compensation, or if the production of the paper currency under any new system is less efficient or more expensive, the Treasury is likely to lose almost as much over a change in the paper currency as they would over a change in the silver currency. I hope, therefore, that if, and when, any change of that kind takes place, the Government will consider very carefully the appointment, possibly on the same lines as the Advisory Committee to the Mint which they have at the present time, of a Currency Committee, which will keep a very careful watch on the whole production of paper currency.

I should like to say, by leave of the House, one word in answer to the hon. Gentleman, because I do not want to be misunderstood. I did not suggest there is any immediate prospect of the amalgamation of the two issues. The Government have not discussed the details, and the matter is where it was left by a Committee whose report was recently published. All the considerations which the hon. Member mentioned will, of course, be in the mind of the Government when they come to deal with the matter, but, in any case, it cannot be dealt with at the present time. We have got to see how the gold standard works.

I want to make a suggestions before withdrawing my Motion. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the small Mint deficit of £300,000. May I suggest that he could raise £13,000,000 a year by introducing a tax on advertisements—a thing not mentioned in the Budget. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Grants for Relief of Unemployment

I beg to move, then went on to say that the only thing they could suggest to the Government of that day was to allow corporations to undertake works of public utility of a non-revenue earning character, and that was done, with the result that the corporations and municipal authorities throughout the country came forward with their schemes. I was deeply interested in this matter, because at that time I was serving on an unemployment committee in my own constituency, and we brought our schemes forward. What were those schemes? Sewage works, the laying out of parks and pleasure grounds, and the laying out of roads, for, under the conditions then laid down, there was practically nothing else we could do, and, in time, these schemes came almost to an end. Again, they generally did not prove that they were useful in the way of relieving unemployment, at any rate amongst skilled men, because it meant putting skilled men on to road work, and this was not altogether to the good.

Later, in 1923, the then Conservative Government had a Cabinet Committee dealing with this question of the relief of unemployment and the unemployment grant. I had the honour to interview members of that Committee and to place before them what I and many other people considered a better method of dealing with this grant. The result of that was that the Committee came to a conclusion that it would be better to extend those grants to works of public utility of a revenue-earning character, and a circular was issued, which is referred to in my Motion on the Order Paper, a circular known as Circular U.G.C. 16 (Revised) which told us that—

We have in my constituency a scheme which we brought before the Government, and which we thought fitted in with their schemes as outlined in this Circular. That was a scheme for building a fish dock extension at Grimsby. This was work very badly needed indeed, but unfortunately we could not get it constructed by the railway company. In the first place, they had a contract out for this work in 1914 at a cost of £500,000. The Government stopped them going on with the work owing to the outbreak of the War, and when it came to a question of re-tendering they found it was going to cost £1,250,000. When this Circular was issued by the Government, the Grimsby Corporation and the company owning the particular docks that I have mentioned thought that they would be able to get the grant. The Circular does not say anything whatever about docks owned by railway companies, but we understood that because that particular dock was owned by the railway company, although the Circular states distinctly "public utility companies," we could not have this grant, and, therefore, the scheme has to lay in abeyance.

On behalf of the people I represent I wish to ask the Government to give this matter a most careful consideration. You have got a big conundrum here, inasmuch as you have to decide as to whether a dock owned by a railway company is or is not a dock. No doubt the answer will be—a lemon! I should like the opinion of the legal advisers of the Government on that point, because a dock owned by a railway company is just the same dock or harbour as if it belonged to another company. The excuse given at that time when we interviewed the Minister of Transport as to why the Government were not going to allow the railway companies to participate in these grants although they would allow other companies, was because the railway companies, under the Act of 1921, received a certain large sum of money by way of compensation, and the Department thought that they ought to spend out of that money the necessary capital required to carry on this work. But the Act clearly points out, as I have it here, that—

The scheme I have outlined would provide work immediately for something like 3,000 people. The company are prepared, provided they get a grant under the terms of this circular, to go on with the work at once, and are prepared to comply with the condition of the circular which lays it down that the materials used in the work shall be of British manufacture, which would help our industries considerably. Further, they are prepared to take the labour, other than the supervisory and and technical staff, from the Employment Exchanges. That would give the Government control as to who should be employed. The argument the railway companies have used that in taking this labour from the Employment Exchanges they are going to lose a certain amount of efficiency is, to my mind, a fair one. We all know that that would be so, because a man who has been unemployed for some considerable time is not so efficient as a man who has been in constant employment. Many of the men, also, will not be used to that class of work, and will not be as efficient as men ordinarily engaged in it. My own experience, and I have had considerable experience in this matter, is that when you take men from the Employment Exchange, many of whom have been out of work for some considerable time, you can only hope to get 75 per cent. of efficiency for a month or two. The railway company argue, therefore, and I think rightly, that if they are prepared to take these people they have a right to some compensation from the Government to balance that percentage of inefficiency.

If this scheme could be put into operation it would solve the unemployment problem in the whole of the North of Lincolnshire for the next five years. It would help to reduce the numbers, which I am sorry to say are very large, on the register of unemployed persons— from 3,000 to 4,000 persons—in a very short time. It would be a national benefit also. Surely an industry that provides food for the people of this country is one that is worth encouraging. We have made a canvass of the trade, and if this accommodation were provided for us we could put in to the hands of shipbuilders orders for many steam trawlers straight away. That would mean work for the shipyards and shipbuilders. When the scheme was completed we should have permanent employment for something like 600 men, in addition to the fishermen who would sail on the boats, the people who would handle the fish when it was landed at the port, the railway workers and others. It would mean a large amount of new employment which this country very badly needs. I am going to make a special appeal to the Government to reconsider this question in the light of the facts I have laid before them. I know there are other ports which have similar schemes—I believe Shields has one, and there are other places also. If we are to spend money on relief works, let us spend it on something that is going to be of real, benefit to the nation when it is completed. I want to see these men in employment. I can say with truth that one of the chief reasons that induced me to become a candidate for Parliamentary honours was my knowledge, from my long experience in working amongst them, that the vast percentage of unemployed men are willing and anxious to work. To those people who say that many of these people do not want work—some of the papers have said it—I say, "Give them a chance of a job, test them and prove it"; and if they refuse it then, well, we shall know that they are not worthy of any further consideration. Unless you can give them a fair chance to have a job I say we have no right to unduly criticise. Here is an opportunity, not only in my own constituency, but in many other places round the coast, to carry out what the Government have decided is a sound and sensible scheme. But they will not allow it to be applied to a clock owned by a railway company. If they would allow railway companies to take advantage of this scheme, it would go a long way towards helping to solve the problem. I make a special appeal to the Government to reconsider this matter, not only in the interests of the constituency I represent, but of constituencies in other parts of the country.

I beg to second the Motion.

In the very few moments at my disposal, I do not intend to go over the ground which I had intended to cover. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour will bear me out that I represent one of the industrial divisions of Birmingham, where the question of unemployment is most acute. I am, naturally, interested in any utility scheme that will provide work for men who want work and cannot find it. I understand the negotiations between Grimsby and the Ministry of Labour have been going on for such a time that the sum of money asked for has been spent on unemployment benefit. I am looking at this matter purely from the point of view of economy, and if the right hon. Gentleman would make the grant asked for, he would not only find work for the unemployed, but save money to the country. The Minister of Labour knows I represent a Division which practically contains all working men, most of them out of work, and the great majority of them ex-service men, men who served their country in the hour of need and came back to civil life, after being discharged, without any real chance of getting their place in industry. Seeing that there are about a million and a quarter unemployed in this country, the Government should take a bold lead and provide these grants in order to provide work for the unemployed, and in the end it would be in the interests of economy and the country. I will not keep the House any longer.

I can only reply very briefly to this Debate. I realise the position of the hon. Member who has moved this Resolution and I sympathise with him as regards Grimsby, where I know there is a considerable amount of unemployment, although I do not think it is quite so great as the average of the country. I understand the hon. Member's anxiety, and am reminded of the Latin quotation—

The reasons are not far to seek. It may be quite true that the large funds handed to the railways are not used for capital purposes. It is true however that they add to the resources of the railways, and for that reason they set free other resources which can be so applied. The position of the railways is quite different from that of isolated dock companies; that is to say, where you have a gas company working as a gas company only, or a dock company working as a dock company only, it is different from the case of a dock which is only one small item in a large undertaking represented by a railway company as a whole. In the case of gas companies dividends are limited. In the case of a dock like that the amount of dividend is not limited, and if more than a certain profit is made and the amount of profits or dividends are not limited by Statute, then under that very circular which has been mentioned the undertaking will be required to submit to such limitations during the period of assistance as are necessary. It is largely companies which are devoted to a particular service such as gas companies and not parts of large undertakings with which we are concerned.

The hon. Member's proposal is also unacceptable for this reason. If I were the director of a large railway, and had to consider whether or no I would go forward with a scheme like this, I would, of course, put it in hand if the need were clear and urgent. But if not, then the possibility of getting some help might easily influence me, consciously or unconsciously, to delay making a decision. For these reasons the answer to the hon. Member who has moved this Motion is that so far as the Trade Facilities Scheme is concerned it is open to any railway company to make application for assistance for new capital works under that scheme. But so far as the assistance given by the Unemployment Grants Committee under Circular No. 16 is concerned, the answer is quite definitely and categorically "No." That is the decision after very careful consideration indeed, and I think that the House, when it has considered the whole of the circumstances with perhaps more leisure than I have been able to devote to it during the last five minutes, will entirely agree with the general conclusion at which I have arrived. I do not think there is anything more to be said to that subject, except to assure the hon. Member that the decision we have reached—

It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Criminal Justice [Money]

Again considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question,

"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law with respect to the administration of Criminal Justice in England and otherwise to amend the Criminal Law, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the expenditure of local authorities under the provisions of the said Act relating to probation of offenders, and towards the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence of such sums as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct and subject to such conditions as he may with the like approval determine."

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

When the Debate was interrupted by the Motion at a Quarter past Eight, I was pointing out that this Amendment, which is now proposed, makes the Financial Resolution a proposal for the devotion of moneys to purposes quite other than those which had formerly been proposed. A Memorandum has been issued by the Secretary of State explaining the purposes of this Financial Resolution, and that Memorandum states that

"On the recommendation of a Departmental Committee which inquired into the training, appointment and payment of probation officers, Parliament was asked last year to give a grant to local authorities of the sum of £22,000, which is included in the Home Office Estimates for the year, and the Criminal Justice Bill provides for an extension of the probation system which will involve the appointment"—

and these are the important words—

"of more full-time officers and the payment of salaries on the basis suggested by the Committee."

Therefore, the proposal of the Resolution, one would understand from the Memorandum, was to be confined to the payment of probation officers. It is now quite clear, from the Resolution to which we are now asked to agree, that the money is to be spent for the payment

"of such sums as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct, and subject to such conditions as he may with the like approval determine."

It is quite clear, and my hon. Friend will not deny, that the purpose of the Resolution as it now exists is that the money which the House will be asked to vote for the purpose of the maintenance of probation officers will be used, or may be used, to finance persons to undertake the work who are agents of voluntary societies acting as probation officers. That is a. very serious change in the scope of the Bill since it was first introduced. The first proposal was that the whole of England should be covered with areas over which probation officers should be appointed. It is now suggested that in place of these probation officers, where it is thought fit, the money shall be expended in the financing of the agents of existing voluntary societies to act as probation officers, which is a different proposition.

I do not quite read the Resolution and the Amendment in the sense of the hon. and learned Gentleman. An Amendment has been moved to leave out all the words after "offenders." The effect of that is that the grant will only be applicable "towards the expenditure of local authorities under the provisions of the said Act " and not towards the expenses of maintaining persons who have been released on probation. The Amendment having been proposed, it has a limiting effect.

I think the point is this. The grant is to be "relating to the probation of offenders and towards the cost of maintaining persons who have been released on probation of such sums as the Secretary of State may direct." The operative words are in both cases the spending of such sums. The words "and towards the expense of maintaining persons" are merely additional words. The words "of such sums as the Secretary of State may direct " apply equally to the expenditure of monies for the local authorities or monies relating to the probation of offenders and the expense of maintaining persons.

I think that must be so. I was going to point out that it is not quite fair to the hon. Member for West Houghton (Mr. Rhys Davies) to say that the Amendment did not go to this particular matter. It goes to both matters, and by eliminating the matter of the Resolution you are objecting to the proposed spending of the money quite as much on these probation officers as on the other matter. But I need not argue that point any further. Let us be quite clear what it is to which we object and to what we do not object. I do not object to the voluntary societies going on with their present work, working under the probation officer. If a particular lad who is under probation is of a particular religious persuasion it is perfectly right that the probation officer should hand him over to the society most competent to deal with him, and it is equally right that the voluntary contributions which are now being raised for the maintaining of these voluntary societies should continue. We do not object to that in the least. What we object to is the fresh spending of public money on the financing of these voluntary societies to take the place of probation officers, and we say the whole value of Part I of this Measure which is to put a probation officer in every petty sessional district will be defeated if the voluntary society is to take the place of the probation officer. Very often there are different kinds of voluntary societies acting in different districts. There are the voluntary societies of the Anglican Church, of the Catholic Church and of other religious denominations, and no one of these denominations will see with satisfaction the whole work of the probation officer handed over to the officer of the mission of some other denomination. It is much fairer and more equitable that the probation officer should be an impartial civil servant as between the different denominations. My hon. Friend is in this dilemma, that either the Resolution justifies the alteration which he is proposing to make in Committee or not. If it does, then it is relevant to discuss it to-night; if it does not, then he will have to come back to the House for another Financial Resolution. I am assuming that it does, and that it is all one matter. Instead of the proposal being, as the Bill now stands, that the person who may act as a probation officer should be selected from the probation officers within the area, that is, an independent civil servant, financed by the local authority, the proposal now is that it shall be lawful to appoint as the probation officer for the area a person who is the agent of a voluntary society. That is what we object to. Not to the work of the voluntary society, not to the continuation of that work, not to anything which a voluntary society may do, as it does at present with a probation officer; but we do object to public money being given to a particular denominational voluntary society. We object to the destruction of the scheme which the Bill has promised us—the appointment of an independent probation officer in every area.

This is only an enabling Resolution. The actual con- crete proposal may be discussed in Committee. It does not justify the proposal, but only enables it to be made.

I am sensible, even from the short time I have been in the House, of the importance of raising these matters in the House, when we are asked to authorise the spending of this money. It is not a party question. Anyone who has had any knowledge of magisterial work and the importance of having an independent probation officer will not readily agree to the excellent idea of the Government to have an independent probation officer, being whittled down by the mere substitution of the agent of a voluntary society. The point is important whether raised at 11.30 at night or at 3.30 in the afternoon. We object and we shall resist, and we hope the House will resist a proposal enabling money to be spent for the financing of voluntary associations in substitution for a proper probation officer. The Bill has been altered. In our opinion, it has been largely weakened, and we submit that this Resolution which would justify this injurious alteration ought to be opposed.

The hon. and learned Member, before the Debate was interrupted, suggested that hon. Members on this side who raised points of order feared to debate on the Floor of the House the issue which he desired to raise. Those who raised points of order from this side have no fear of debating with him or with any of his party, either on the floor of the House or on the platforms of the constituencies, the issue of whether the people who do so much good in the Police Courts as probation officials should be people who do it for love of the work, people who are religious in the sense of the religion of humanity, rather than people who are State paid civil servants. I have no doubt as to which is the more successful of the two. But as one who is interested in the passage of this Bill I want to say a word or two on the Amendment which is put forward to this Resolution. The Financial Resolution is necessary to the whole scheme of the Bill with regard to probation officers. The effect of the Amendment is to prevent this money being available for the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence. Here, again, I should have no hesitation in debating on any platform in the country, any more than in the House of Commons, as to whether it is a suitable object for the State to supply money for the maintenance of people who have been released on probation.

I have already said that that is not the purpose of this Amendment, but that it refers to the appointment of agents of these societies as probation officers.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has sufficient knowledge of these subjects to know that the issue before the House is not the one which he seeks to put into words but is one which is down in print on the Order Paper. The Amendment is to leave out the last four lines of the Resolution, thereby preventing the moneys voted by Parliament from being available towards the expense of the maintenance of persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence. Those who support this Amendment are supporting a proposal that those moneys, put forward for the expenses of probation officers generally, should not be available for that most important part of the probation work. I can only hope that on consideration the hon. and learned Member will be able to persuade his colleague, who has less legal training than himself, that it will be in the interests of his party generally if he does not press the Amendment.

At the Home Office this morning we went into this matter very thoroughly, and I was prepared to meet the particular case which appeared to be raised by the Amendment as it appeared on the Paper, but as further considerations have been put forward by the late Solicitor-General I am quite prepared to meet his point. I must confess that I have never seen any Minister who has had to defend a Financial Resolution having, while doing so, to resist arguments in reference to an Amendment which is to be proposed in Committee, but still, if asked to defend that Amendment which we are going to discuss to-morrow morning, I will do my best.

Listening to the speeches by hon. Gentlemen opposite one would think that the whole of this money was going to be handled by Tory clubs, the Church of England and other sections of public opinion. What are the facts? A vast amount of probation work is done by various societies, chiefly by temperance societies, which do not always agree with the party with which I am associated, through Police Court missionaries. These societies have stood in the breach for years. They have done an enormous lot for probation, and they have supplemented the local authorities in their efforts to deal with this question, and it would be rather ungenerous to leave them out now. The criticism of hon. Gentlemen opposite is as to the appointment of agents of these societies as probation officers. Who is going to appoint these agents in certain cases? Not the Secretary of State for the day; not by a Conservative Secretary of State for the day. They are not to be appointed by any committee representing any section or any party or any particular creed. If it happens that the best man for the job is an agent of a society of this kind, he will be appointed by a committee of Justices absolutely non-party and non-sectarian. Is it likely that the Justices will appoint a man to this very responsible and difficult work because he happens to be a Conservative, or because he belongs to the Church of England, or because he happens to be a member of any particular party or adherent of any particular creed? It is certain that they will appoint the best man or woman for the job.

The Amendment put down by the Home Secretary for to-morrow's Standing Committee is not mandatory; it is merely permissive. It merely makes it legal for the Justices, in certain cases where they have not any other man for the particular work so good, to appoint for that work the agent of some particular society. If the particular local authority concerned does not approve of the agent and the appointment, they can appeal to the Home Secretary and stop his salary. They can ask for another appointment to be made. They can do that under the proviso of Clause 1, Subsection (2). There is a further check. The Secretary of State himself, under Section (7, c ), can further go into the matter and hold up the appointment altogether. These societies have had enormous experience. Many of their officers have been doing probation work for years. They know all about it; they are the very people in the district to whom to turn to do the job. It seems to be a very bad turn indeed to prohibition work all over the country that we should say to-night that we must never recognise these agents in our Courts. This Amendment by the Home Secretary is not made of cast-iron. It is to be discussed to-morrow, and we shall probably discuss it for a very long time. It is a new Clause, as follows:

To the Committee of Justices. They appoint all these probation officers and arrange their salaries, and if the local authority which pays part of the expenses disagree with the salary or with the appointment, they can appeal to the Home Secretary and get the matter reviewed. This matter is to be discussed to-morrow. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is a reasonable man. He will hear the arguments for and against the Amendment to be proposed in the Committee, and I am certain, if any arguments are adduced to show that the Amendment can be wisely altered in any way, he will listen to those arguments. I hope, after this discussion, hon. Gentlemen opposite will allow us to get the Financial Resolution to-night, in order that we may proceed with the Committee discussion to-morrow morning.

Whilst I am not convinced by the arguments used, yet, in view of the fact that we are to have another opportunity of discussing this very important matter, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question again proposed.

I protest against the assumption by the Government and others that this Money Committee has not the right to limit the demands which the Government are making for money. This has nothing to do with the merits of the case put by the late Solicitor-General. The Resolution asks for certain powers, and he moved an Amendment to limit the powers, and consequently the amount of money. The argument then put forward by the Government is that this is only an enabling Resolution, and that it is not proper for this Committee to limit the amount. The function of this Committee is to examine the Resolution, and it is proper to move Amendments limiting the amount asked for by the Government.

The hon. and gallant Member has directed his glances so strikingly at me that I feel bound to say how completely I agree with him. My complaint was not of the attempt of any Member on the other side to discuss the Money Resolution—that I welcome—but the fact that hon. Members were proposing to amend the Money Resolution in such a way as to limit the expenditure of this money, and so that it would not not be expended on the maintenance of a person remanded on probation.

It is rather an outrage that a subject like this should be taken at this time of night, and that the discussion should be round an Amendment which only one or two Members on the Front Benches know anything about —a manuscript Amendment which is to be discussed in Committee.

I have not seen it. Probably only those Members who are on the Committee have read it. On the question of religious organisations carrying on this work, it is true that such organisations do in the beginning carry on splendid work, which the State leaves undone, but a time always comes when the work grows so large that the voluntary organisations cannot deal with it It happens in education, and in all social service. What is needed is a paid official responsible to the municipality or to some representative body in each area. I know from experience that one's prejudices on a question of this kind go in certain directions, and colour what one is doing. In regard to people who are supposed to be moral delinquents, it is very often the case that the last people to deal with them properly are those who hold strong religious views. I think this new proposition will mean that instead of having a probation officer in each area, the Justices will imagine that it is better to carry on with the organisation and give them the money to pay their officer. I think that, just as in the other services I have mentioned, you have taken the matter out of their hands and treated it as a regular social service to be paid for out of communal funds—[An HON. MEMBER: "Socialism!"] Without Socialist propositions, the hon. Member and I could not live for two minutes; we would be dead. In this matter it is a little bit of Socialism he wants. He wants the most important, the money, and then he wants to have the right of spending it through some independent organisation. [An HON. MEMBER: "So do you!"] Yes, only we are honest enough to say so. The point I am wanting to make is that the whole discussion, so far as I can understand it—and it has been very difficult to follow —is that under the new proposition we shall not be sure of getting a probation officer in each area, and it is because of that that I am very sorry my noble leaders on the Front Bench have run away.

That is not so. We are going to get a probation officer in every area.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Teachers (Superannuation) [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with re- spect to the grant of superannuation allowances and gratuities to teachers and to persons employed in the control or supervision of teachers and to their legal personal representatives, and to amend The Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898, and the School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1924, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as are necessary to defray the expenses incurred by the Board of Education in carrying the Act into effect:

Provided that there shall not be defrayed as part of such expenses—

Before allowing this Resolution to pass, I should like to ask the Minister of Education a question, which I am sure he will be ready to answer. He will be aware that there are on the Order Paper already, for the Committee stage of this Bill, a number of Amendments which have a bearing upon the points raised when we had this Teachers (Superannuation) Bill under discussion recently in the House. All I propose to ask at this moment is whether this Resolution is drafted in such a way as will safeguard the right of those who are responsible for those Amendments to move them without the risk of being ruled out of order.

This Resolution safeguards all the Amendments which are down for the Committee stage. The only things which this Resolution will exclude will be the addition of any sum to a pension now being paid under the 1918 Act as from a date before the commencement of this Act; secondly, any addition to a pension granted under some Act other than the Acts specified.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Bill

Not amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.

CLAUSE 1.—( Continuance subject to amendment of 11 and 12 Geo. 5. c. 64.)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out the word "twenty-seven," and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty."

Before proceeding with the Amendment standing in my name and the names of some of my hon. Friends, I think I am expressing the unanimous opinion of every Member from Scotland, at least on this side of the House, in saying that it is a monstrous thing that important legislation of this kind should be taken at this hour of the night. But when we know the facts, we understand the reason for the lateness of the hour at which this kind of legislation is taken. The Act which it is sought to amend and continue is the Act of last year entitled

It is, of course, perfectly true and extremely regrettable, that this Act, owing to the exigencies of Parliamentary time, expired on 15th May. But my information is that this has not been unusual, and that, indeed, it has happened in many cases. I believe I am right in saying that in the case of this Act last year there was a period of a few days when it lapsed. What happened, or what will happen, is that in the case of the Parish Council they will continue to pay. If this Bill is passed into law, as it doubtless will be, no harm is done. Under the circumstances, as soon as it becomes law it will be retrospective.

On a further point. May I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that the Title of the Bill we are now discussing is a Bill "to extend further the duration." I submit, Sir, for your judgment that it is impossible to extend further the duration of an Act which, in point of law and fact, has elapsed.

Upon that point, I may perhaps mention that in the past it has not been unusual in Private Bill legislation procedure for Bills to be lodged prior to the date of the lapsing of an Act, although it was quite obvious that it would be quite impossible to pass the amending Bill into law before the date of the Act lapsing. It seems to me to be quite consistent that what we concede to private citizens under Private Bill procedure is quite applicable, or open to the House to adopt, in the case of a public Bill.

May I further point out that this is not a Private Bill coming under Private Bill procedure; therefore the procedure governing it is different. Unless, too, this Bill is withdrawn and its Title altered in terms, the payments made by the Parish Council cannot be made retrospective because this Bill contains no provision to make the payments retrospective.

It seems to me that the Member is right on that point, at least to this extent: that it will be a question of the Committee as to whether anything is done illegally under this Act. But I cannot see that is a point in which the Chair should interfere. If there be a gap making the Act illegal, it will remain for the courts to deal with it if the point be raised.

On a point of order, Sir. Is it possible to extend an Act which has already, in law and in fact, lapsed?

Surely it is a well-established fact—I am sure there must be many precedents—that Bills have been introduced into this House to continue Acts which lapsed before those Bills could have the force of law? I am referring to cases under the private Bill procedure, though I am not in any way confusing this measure with a private Bill, for I know that this is a public Bill. Under the Private Bill procedure there have been many cases within my own knowledge and experience where on the lodging of the Bill it was well known that the Act it was sought to extend would have lapsed before the Bill could have the force of law, and there never has been any question about it. That Has been the practice when the private citizen has been making application to Parliament. There have been many Bills in the past in a similar case to this one, and I think there is the force of precedent behind it.

Are we to understand, Sir, that you are supporting the extraordinary doctrine laid down by the Secretary for Scotland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order! "]—the extraordinary doctrine laid down by the Secretary for Scotland, that if a law has expired the powers of that law may still be continued without any authority? There has been no Order in Council, there has been no action by the Cabinet, no emergency legislation has been passed. We are in a complete hiatus. This House might as well disband and go home altogether. [HON MEMBERS: " Hear, hear! "] Yes, that is either Russianism or Italianism, but it has not been up to now Britishism.

I think the point is covered by this—

"If a Bill be in Parliament in continuance of any temporary Act and such Act expires before the Royal Assent is given to the Bill, the Act to be continued does not lapse in the interval."

This is in a statute of 1808 —48 George III, Chapter 106.

I would like to ask what is meant exactly by the phrase in the statement you have just read out that a Bill can be continued if it is merely awaiting the Royal Assent? This Bill is not awaiting the Royal Assent. It is not yet an Act. It has to go through the process of further discussion here, and the Government might possibly be defeated. Does the rule you have read really cover the point of the fact that it refers to a Bill awaiting the Royal Assent?

It does not say "awaiting the Royal Assent"; it says, "and such Act expires before the Royal Assent is given to the Bill," that is, such a Bill as the present one. It seems to me that this Act of 1808 covers the case. At any rate, it justifies me in ruling that this Bill is competent to proceed. I do not presume to take the place of a law court in saying what may happen afterwards.

May I submit that the Act to which you have referred provides for the extension of the operation of an expiring Act. But this Bill goes further, not only providing for the extension of half that Act, but introducing modifications and amendments which alter the purport of that Act.

The fact that it does something more than extend the present law does not affect the case.

The time covered by the Act of 1808, which you, Sir, have quoted, is a type of Act included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. The fact that this is not included in the Bill, but introduced under ordinary Parliamentary procedure, would seem to take it out of the category of the Act of 1808.

The 1808 Act only meant to govern Acts which were not going to be altered by the Government of that day. Here we are now asked to continue an Act which is altered largely from the Act previously passed, and this Act, now having lapsed, is completely altered in its character.

Private Bills have been passed which continued Acts which had already lapsed.

That appears to be covered by the Act I have quoted. If any question arise on the competence of the Act afterwards, it is a matter for the Courts.

May we put it through you, Sir, to the Secretary for Scotland that under the circumstances, in view of the possibility of fresh indemnifying legislation if required, in view further of the possibility of legal action arising in Scotland—I do not know whether they have got in Scotland such a thing as a Common Informer—owing to the fact that the last Act expired on the 15th May and we are now at the 20th May, and possibly 5, 10 or 15 days' illegal expenditure will require to be covered before this Bill can receive the Royal Assent and become law—would the Secretary for Scotland consult the public interest by delaying or withdrawing this Measure as it at present stands and bringing in a complete Measure indemnifying the Parish Councils of Scotland.

No, Sir. As I understand it no question of indemnity arises in the public interest. The proper course for us to take is to pass this Bill at as early a moment as possible. The moment it is passed it will cover any questions of that kind.

May I ask if the Bill only operates from that date on which in passes this House. There is nothing in the Bill which states that it covers any period then retrospective or that it is a continuation Bill and therefore it operates from the date the last Act expires. That is a very debatable point. In view of that, may I ask the Secretary for Scotland to see that the Parish Councils, who may be involved in long legal proceedings, are put in an absolutely clear and regular position.

If this Bill goes through it will legalise the position as and from the 15th May.

But this Bill will not become an Act before next year, and if a citizen takes action against the parish council they will render themselves liable to incurring legal expenditure. My point is in the event of a citizen taking that kind of action, can the parish council indemnify themselves because the action will be illegal at the time.

I beg to move "That the further consideration of the Bill be now adjourned."

I do so in view of the fact that a situation has arisen of considerable importance to the parish councils. As a matter of fact, a citizen of Glasgow or any Scottish Burgh is quite within his rights in immediately issuing an interdict against any parish council for money which has already been spent, or money Which they are proceeding to spend, in connection with this question. This Bill cannot become an Act for some time to come, and the result will be that a citizen is perfectly within his right in taking this course of action, and the parish council will be open to having proceedings taken against them in the Law Courts. That course of action is quite possible, and if we wish to indemnify parish councils against this kind of action and any legal expenditure involved, the least this House can do is to adjourn its deliberations on this measure. I think in view of the large issues involved this debate ought to be adjourned.

I cannot accept that Motion, because I have already dealt with this point. If any such question arise as that to which the hon. Member has referred, it would only make matters worse. I have given my ruling on the original point, and have given my authority for so doing.

12 M.

As regards the Act of George III, it provides that if any Act is about to expire when a Bill is before Parliament extending the same, that Act shall be deemed not to have expired until the same Bill receives the Royal Assent. I will put to you a case which might have occurred last year. The Safeguarding of Industry Act expired in August. Suppose a private Member introduced a Bill to extend it. Does that mean to say that, pending the proceedings on that Bill and its possibly receiving the Royal Assent, the same Bill would have been continued, because this Act of Geo. III makes no mention of a Government Bill, and it would appear to me to be the case that if this is indeed the law governing the country, and it has not been repealed, it is within the competence of any Member to secure the con- tinuance of any Act which might otherwise expire merely by the process of presenting a Bill to the House for continuing it.

It is not for me to criticise the Parliament of George III. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman finds occasion, he can, no doubt, test his hypothetical case. I have given my ruling.

The Bill as it is before the House indicates quite clearly what the views of the Government are regarding the probable duration of the serious unemployment through which we are going. This Bill is only to legalise this extraordinary expenditure until 15th May, 1927, and my Amendment is to extend that date to 1930. We do not believe that the present extraordinary unemployment will be over by 1927. We see no sign of it, and we can imagine no reasons whatever which could have suggested themselves to the Secretary for Scotland when he fixed this period of 1927 as the period when the present extraordinary unemployment might be supposed to disappear. Where is his evidence? So far as I can discover, it is not in the Report supplied to him by his own officials in Scotland. We turn to the last published Report of the Scottish Board of Health in so far as it deals with unemployment, and we can discover there no hint of any possible early cessation of the extraordinary unemployment, but indeed the very reverse. We find, for example, on page 15 of the Report, that his officers have taken a rapid survey of unemployment in Scotland, the prospects for the immediate future and the effect of unemployment on health, moral, technical efficiency, crime, and social unrest. They say that, thanks to the comprehensive relief measures, the three years of unemployment through which the country has already passed are not likely to leave any serious mark on the physique of the people. This encouragement is qualified by the effect that continued unemployment threatens to have on young people who are growing up in the abnormal and unhealthy surroundings of a world that makes no call on their capacity for service. These are the official conclusions of the medical advisers of the right hon. Gentleman himself. Then on page 44 we are informed that Scottish infantile mortality is appreciably heavier over a long period than the English. For the last decade Scotland compares somewhat unfavourably with England. In the last two years, 1922 and 1923, the figures are, England 77 and Scotland 101, and England 69 and Scotland 78. In both those years infantile mortality in Scotland, largely due to the unemployment and poverty of the people, was considerably heavier. In other words, there is an annual massacre of helpless infants, even over the English rate, which could be saved if the conditions were raised to the English standard.

Now we come to the important Clause of the Bill. What have his advisers to say about that? On page 175 of the annual report they show how difficult it has been made for local parish councils to operate the Act. There was to be no lump sum allowed to parish councils coming to terms with the local town councils. Consequently the parish councils were prohibited from spending money upon any public utility work outside the ordinary public utility rights given them by general statutes, and that limits the area of their operations to a very small extent. They might come to terms with the District Committee, but again only if they secured the assent of the County Council. We actually have this statement, that demoralisation was necessarily induced in some cases from a continuation of the unconditional receipt of outdoor relief. What kind of demoralisation ensues from relief without work? We hear regularly from hon. Members opposite that demoralisation takes place if people are not given some kind of social service to perform. We hear it continually said by hon. Members opposite that the four, five or six years' continued unemployment, miserable doles handed out, semi-starvation, no social service performed, no hope, no prospects of anything better, produces a demoralisation which it will be exceedingly difficult to stop. That demoralisation would not take place if the amount of relief was sufficient. Otherwise, certain hereditary classes—

How does this connect with the Amendment which the hon. Member is moving—to leave out twenty-seven and insert thirty?

My point is that it is essential to put a longer period in the Bill because of the impossibility of securing normality in unemployment within the period which the right hon. Gentleman proposes in the Bill. Because of the further fact that a certain kind of demoralisation has continued so long, it is essential that a longer period should be inserted in the Bill in order to give the parish councils and the town councils an opportunity of setting the able-bodied unemployed to work, and stopping the long-continued practice of providing relief in doles for doing nothing.

The hon. Member is correct to confine himself to that point, of the merits of a further two years over the period proposed in the Bill.

It is not a question of money. On page 222 of the right hon. Gentleman's report, we see that in the dismal year of 1923 the accumulated funds under the National Health Insurance Acts in Scotland were almost £1,000,000 greater at the end of the year than at the beginning. He had accumulated funds under his control at the end of 1923 of almost £12,000,000. It is not therefore a question of monetary stringency which compels him to put a narrow limit in his Bill.

What is the extent of the able-bodied unemployed problem which the right hon. Gentleman has to face? On page 238 of his Report—I am quoting from his Report because it is the only authentic source of information which we have, and it only carries us to 1923—it is stated that the able-bodied unemployed to be dealt with under the Bill, or who may be dealt with under the Bill, number 45,416, and they have dependants amounting to 98,119. So that 140,000 people either dependants or the able-bodied poor themselves are depending for their immediate future status and food, their work, their human dignity, and upon the way in which this Bill leaves this House. We have, further, to consider the amount of wages that these unemployed men would receive if they had opportunities of employment with the local council out of the monies supplied by the parish councils.

I really think that the hon. Member is abusing his rights. This is not an occasion for Debate on the state of unemployment in Scotland. It is a question of whether this Bill should prolong until 1927 or 1930 the operation of a previous Act.

I was endeavouring, perhaps with no very great success, to confine myself within the narrow limits of the Amendment which I was moving. It is essential to know what is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman as to the extent and quality of the relief works that he proposes to set up in Scotland during the months that lie before us. If he intends to proceed with adequate relief works the necessity for extending the period of this Bill may not be so obvious, but, if he does not, I submit that I should be in order in showing that it is necessary to extend the period. We have had no evidence that he does intend to set up any kind of relief works. Yesterday I asked whether he intended to take any steps to stop the flooding of land so as to prevent it going out of cultivation, and an hon. Member opposite weighed in with a supplementary question suggesting that an expenditure of only a few pounds would be required, but we got no indication from the right hon. Gentleman that he proposed to set any of the unemployed to work in the Kelvin valley to clean the river and—

The hon. Member is now referring to a matter which it would be proper to raise on the Estimates, as it applies to action or inaction, but it does not apply to legislation.

We are very anxious that this matter should be properly debated according to the rules of the House, and we will certainly abide by your ruling, but there is an important change made by this Bill in extending to parish councils the right to subsidise con-tractors on great public works. This is a new principle, and it seems to me that in discussing whether it should be applied for two years or five years we have the right to discuss the terms of the schemes contemplated, their duration and character. All these things are germane. A parish council cannot undertake expenditure on a big scheme if the legislation is only going to last for two years. We have discussed this freely on Second Reading and upstairs in Committee, and we have kept within the limits of order, but we think that there ought to be reasonable latitude allowed in discussing these points.

Do I understand that it is decided to take that discussion on this Amendment, rather than on the next one?

The next Amendment is to limit the powers of the parish councils to hand over to contractors. We are discussing on this one the question of the type of public works that either a public body may do directly or that they may do by letting it out to contract. The second Amendment is a very definite one and more specific, to prevent them doing any work of this sort or to subsidise any work that is carried out by private profit-making contractors, and I assume the Debate on that will take entirely different lines.

I am anxious not to limit unreasonably the scope of the Debate. I do not object to the hon. Member giving an illustration of his desire to extend the period to 1930, but I cannot allow him to go into administrative questions, which properly go to Committee of Supply.

Very well, I will depart from the point I was making. I certainly was only using as an illustration the question I put in the House the other day and the answer I received, to show that there was no indication on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that he intended forthwith or at an early date so to set large scale relief works in motion that we need not press for an extended period in this Bill. May I suggest that if he intends to press for this date, 1927, in his Bill, he ought at least to give this House some indication of how far he intends to set relief works in being at an early date in order to justify this House in passing the Measure with the date 1927 in it? Does he intend, for example—and I only use this for purposes of illustration—to give local authorities power to seize all the unused lands in their parishes, set the unemployed to work upon these unused lands raising foodstuffs for themselves and their families, raising, if you like, eggs or chickens, or feeding young pigs or anything else, adding to the wealth of the country? Does he propose to do something like that, or does he propose to continue witnessing the scandal of these unused lands? How can he justify it? If he insists upon putting this date, 1927, in the Bill, we must surely take it that he has something at the back of his mind, that he and the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health and the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General, all four of them, jointly and severally, have their plans ready of some immediate schemes. I hear men like Sir Ian Hamilton making speeches every other Sunday, pleading with the Government to set afoot great schemes like the Forth and Clyde Canal.

The hon. Member is going too far. I have warned him three times. He must stick to the point.

May I ask a question for the guidance of those taking part in the Debate? If the words "leave out twenty-seven and insert thirty" mean anything, it is that those who are of my opinion are trying to get the Minister in charge to see that there is no evidence from his side that sufficient is being done in dealing with the question of unemployment or that they will deal with it by 1927. Therefore, we ask for an extension to 1930. As the Minister has not been able to show that he will be in a position to deal with the problem by 1927, is it not in order for hon. Members to try to educate the Minister on the things which may be done if the period is extended?

On another occasion, it would be open to hon. Members to discuss the methods in which the powers given are being used by the Government, but not when we are dealing with legislation. This is solely a question of whether or not legislation be required.

May I submit that if the measure is confined to 1927, which is, roughly speaking, less than three years hence, certain hon. Members feel that its later provisions will be useless. In the first place, in the period of two years and six months during which the measure will function, the later provisions will not be in use and, secondly, the period is too short having regard to the inaction of the Scottish Board of Health and the Secretary for Scotland in finding work for the people. It is surely reasonable to argue on this Amendment that the period is too short, unless the Secretary for Scotland can show us that he is taking steps to find work for the unemployed. I am sure the Amendment will be withdrawn if the Secretary for Scotland can prove that steps are being taken to find work within the time mentioned.

I can only hold to what I have said. The occasion for discussing the ways in which powers are used is when the administration is being considered in Committee of Supply. I cannot allow a Debate on legislation to roam over that field.

Would it not be in Order, in supporting an Amendment which seeks to prolong the duration of a measure, to show the advantages which would be derived from that prolongation, and to point out the schemes which might be set on foot if we had the certainty of this law continuing until 1930, but which will not be set on foot if it terminates in 1927?

I do not think so. That again would be trenching on the functions of the Committee of Supply.

Would it be in Order to argue that the time is not sufficient to enable the authorities to make arrangements for clearing land, negotiating the construction of buildings, and so on? May not that be advanced as a reason why a longer period should be allowed?

That has already been done. But the hon. Member must not argue as to the ways in which these works are to be carried out. The point referred to can be raised as a statement in argument, and the hon. Member who moved the Amendment has done so.

With regard to your last ruling, Sir, as to the ways to be adopted, would not the period of time depend entirely on the methods of carrying out particular schemes; and does not the reasonableness or otherwise of the Government's proposals depend entirely on the results to be achieved and the methods by which it is proposed to achieve them?

This is what some of us regard as a Scottish debate and we leave it largely to the Scottish Members, but as English Members are we not entitled to learn from the Scottish people whether 1930 would be better than 1927? How can we go to a Division and support our colleagues unless we know that 1930 will be better than 1927, and unless we allow them to use arguments to that effect so that we can be instructed?

That is the very point to which I have been trying to get the hon. Member to come—the point of the Amendment.

There is nothing further from my desire than to even appear to run in conflict with your ruling, and I will entirely depart from the line of reasoning that I was submitting to the House. I only conclude by saying that if the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Scotland, when he comes to reply, will give us some serious indication that he has good grounds for inserting 1927 in the Bill and for keeping out 1930. then we on these benches may be prepared to reconsider our attitude.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so with considerable sadness, because the rulings that you have given during the course of my hon. Friend's speech have absolutely destroyed what promised to be one of the most useful contributions I had ever expected to make in this House. But I do wish to urge upon the right hon. Gentlemen opposite to accept this Amendment. For one reason, it seems to me that it would prevent them two years hence being in the rather awkward position they were in tonight. It would at least postpone a little difficulty of that sort for five years, and perhaps they might not be the persons responsible at that time for getting a continuance of the Act. But I want to urge this point further, that, as I understand it, when the machinery of the Insurance Act became incapable of bearing the burden of all the unemployed men and women who came into that misfortune in the wake of the war for freedom, liberty and security, it was found that in England the Poor Law machinery was able to fill up the gap, but that in Scotland the Poor Law as it then stood had no provision for dealing with the man who was able-bodied. The position in Scotland was this very objectionable one indeed, that the most benevolent-minded parish council in Scotland, when a destitute man came to them for relief, had to refuse to relieve his destitution if he was able-bodied. They had to say to him, "Go away, and starve until you are physically unfit; come back when you are in a sufficient state of deterioration and our medical officer will then examine you; and, if you are hopelessly unfit in the view of our medical officer, then it will be competent for us to relieve you, but as long as you are a strong, fit man there is no help for you." That was an impossible position at the end of the War, because at that time we were filled with the new spirit of brotherhood. We had won the War, and we were all feeling brotherly towards one another; no man was ever going to starve again, nobody ever up against it, and we were all going to treat one another decently, and there was to be the spirit of comradeship as it had permeated the men in the trenches.

At that time, in 1920, we could not stand the sight of able-bodied men absolutely destitute and without anybody competent to relieve them, and this Emergency Provision Act was passed in 1921. The Government of that day believed that this was an emergency that would pass in the course of a year or two when the post-war reconstructions were brought about, when the new world was properly set going after the 1918 General Election that was fought on the issue of making a new world. We believed that this was only to tide over the emergency until the new world had got going as a flourishing concern. But the years have gone past, from 1920 to 1921, and, as is told in the preamble to the Bill, we had not only this provision in 1921 to enable our parishes or Boards of Guardians to give relief to able-bodied men, but we renewed it again in 1923. We renewed it again in 1924, and I think on each occasion we added something to it. If I remember rightly, in the last amendment we added, in the case of a man who wanted to emigrate to some other country where he thought he might have a better chance than here, we gave the parish councils the power to advance to him the cost of emigration. I would like to hear from the Secretary for Scotland if that provision has been taken advantage of, and how far it has gone to tide over the emergency.

On these three different occasions we have had to extend this Emergency Act which, at its inception, was regarded as only required for an emergency period of two years At the end of that time the emergency was to be over. The next people were more optimistic, and they decided that the emergency was only going to last another year, and they extended it for one year to 1924. In 1924 it was extended for another year to 1925. It expired last week, and the right hon. Gentleman comes forward and says, "We want two years more." It is impossible for any parish council to take any long view of its responsibilities towards the unemployed if the legislation on which it is working is only going to be of two years' duration. Our discussions on this Bill centred, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember, over some considerable time round the question of the Glasgow and Edinburgh road. It was the question of the Glasgow-Edinburgh road that raised the issue that led the right hon. Gentleman to insert the Amendment that he is proposing to insert in this Bill as compared with the 1924 Measure. I can remember the preliminary discussions with reference to the Glasgow-Edinburgh road going on for two years before the scheme actually started. Supposing the Glasgow Corporation—I hope I am not getting into the difficulties the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) did —conceived some big development of laying down a light railway in Argyllshire —I am sorry the hon and learned Member for that constituency (Mr. Macquisten) is not here; he could tell of the advantages of such a scheme. It would be of very great advantage to Glasgow. The actual construction of such a scheme could not be put through in less than three or four years, but if the preliminary negotiations are to take two years, as they did in the case of the Glasgow-Edinburgh road, how is it possible for a Parish Council to exercise the powers the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland seeks to give to them in this manner by the addition he has made to the Act of last year? Such a scheme—I am using as an illustration—as the construction of a light railway is one which would be of the greatest value in relieving the particular class of our unemployed in the city of Glasgow just now. There is a table in the report of the Board of Health which shows the various trades of the unemployed men, and I wish I could put my finger upon it for it shows how very efficiently the Health Department does its work. The point I merely wanted to make was that the percentage of unem- ployed is highest among those engaged in engineering work, in heavy steel work, in ship building, and in locomotive construction. It is twenty per cent. worse on the average in these particular trades than in textile or other branches of industry and the construction of a light railway, with the rails, locomotives, and plant connected with stations together with the amount of tunnelling and bridge building that would be required to be done would take a considerable number of men off our unemployed register on to the type of work that they have been trained to perform. I am going to claim that in the West of Scotland, where engineering took its birth, we have had several generations of skilled workers.

The hon. Member is really abusing the Rules of the House. He is not relevant to the Amendment that has just been moved. It will very much affect my view on further proceedings.

I resent very much the suggestion that I have been deliberately abusing the Rules of the House.

I beg your pardon. I am here trying good humouredly to raise a subject which is very close to my heart. The point I was making was this: that supposing we were entering into such a scheme; supposing the Corporation of Glasgow, in conjunction with the county of Argyll, were entering into such a scheme of development, two years is an impossible time to plan the thing out and to get it going. No scheme that is going to make use of the type of skilled men which we have in the West of Scotland could be developed and got going by a Parish Council which is limited to a two years' period. They have got to promise the contractors who go into the scheme subsidies out of Parish Council funds. Is it possible for a Parish Council that is only going to. have its powers for two years to agree to give for five years a subsidy to a Town Council, County Council or contractor for schemes of development which are going to take five or ten years to complete? If I recollect correctly—I am speaking solely from memory—in the original Act, Parish Councils are empowered to borrow money for this particular purpose of relieving able-bodied unemployed. These borrowings are on a five-year basis. Is it a fair thing to ask a Parish Council to borrow on a five-year basis and not to give them five years' security under the Act? I can see a reason for continuing an Act of this sort for only one year so that this Parliament may continually review the treatment of unemployed men. There is an argument for that, and there is an argument for establishing the position which exists in England, where the Boards of Guardians have power in perpetuity to relieve able-bodied unemployed. There is also an argument for a period which might cope to some extent with a passing situation. But the Government have not made it clear in their legislation and utterances during the whole of this Parliament that they regard the present trade depression as a passing situation.

We have been told about long pulls, everybody requiring to co-operate together and if we got together and there was peace at home and abroad, and if we took things very quietly, and if we could abolish the National Debt in 100 years there would be a return of prosperity. There has never been any suggestion that we are dealing with a passing situation. The Government seem to be looking forward to a long period during which the problem of unemployment is not going to be solved. They are also looking forward to an increased number being thrown off the benefits of the Unemployment Insurance Act. Whatever we may say of the public conscience, and while it may be convenient to us politicians to throw them off one fund and make them chargeable to another, the public conscience will not stand men being starved to death. Even the most hard-hearted of us, when we throw them out of benefit hope that they will land on the parish, and when we throw them off the parish we hope they will land with their friends. The last thing we will stand for is throwing these men to starvation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour are hoping by a "purge of the roll," to use a Scottish ecclesiastical term, to throw off the funds of the National Unemployment Insurance a large number of people who are going to land upon the parishes.

The hon. Member is going over the whole field of the affairs of this Session. That is clearly not in Order on this Amendment.

Just now I was trying to show how the parish councils in Scotland were put in an unfair position and were having burdens imposed upon them, not for two years but for an extended period. And yet, while hon. Members opposite are taking a long view of the situation, they are not going to allow the parish councils of Scotland to take a long view as to how they are going to treat the situation locally. I do not think that is very far away from the Amendment I am supporting. It is not fair to the parish councils of Scotland, who are given under this Bill greater responsibilities than they ever had before—responsibilities involving financial commitments of ten years— without letting them know what is to be the duration of them. I hope I have not unduly strained the patience of the House or yourself, Mr. Speaker. You know that ever since we arrived in this House we have been charged from the West of Scotland with a very definite mandate to deal with this particular problem in the most efficient way we can. It is a matter of regret to me that the Debate could not have been arranged for the normal working hours of the House. I hope you, in your place as Speaker, will not, because someone has arranged for this matter to be taken at this unfortunate hour of the night, limit our opportunities for full discussion. Normally, matters of this sort should have a full day for discussion.

1.0 A.M.

I think, perhaps, it may be of service if I say a few words on this subject now, but I am a little at a loss to know how far, and on what subjects, I may properly reply. I have listened with the very greatest care to the discussion which, I am bound to say, shows a great measure of ingenuity on the part of certain Members on the other side of the House. May I point out that this Bill was introduced on 25th February. It received a Second Reading, and it subsequently went upstairs to the Scottish Grand Committee—where it received a very full discussion—on 7th May. I am certain that if hon. Members pay any attention to these debates they will recollect quite clearly that this Bill was introduced in the first instance and pri- marily in order to continue a power which I should be surprised to learn was not the power every one of my hon. Friends opposite desired to be used so that relief should be afforded to the able-bodied unemployed in Scotland. If the opposition or any measure of opposition to this Bill at this period of the Session, and under the circumstances in which we find ourselves, were successful, the only result would be that these powers would cease to be operative in Scotland. I must make that perfectly clear to all hon. Members of the House. That is the first point to be made clear to the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to put this point to him? Does he suggest that if we ask for the extension of unemployment relief for five years instead of two years that he will withdraw the Bill altogether, and, because we ask for unemployed relief for five years instead of two, does he threaten us that he will stop it altogether?

I think I am within my rights in pointing out that the tactics —perfectly legitimate on the part of an Opposition—which have been pursued on points of Order, if successful, would have had the result of killing this Bill.

Would it have killed the right hon. Gentleman's desire to help the unemployed?

The Church of Scotland Bill is much more important to you than the poor people.

The Church is more important to them. How to get plunder is more important.

When I introduced this Bill for Second Reading in this House I pointed out then —in February last—to Members of this House that instead of making what had been the customary extension for one year, I had taken the step of providing that it should be extended for two years. It is within the knowledge, particularly of hon. Members for Scotland, that I specifically stated then that the reason I did so was that the Government were pledged to deal with the revision of the Poor Law system; that it was impossible for the Government to do that immediately. For that reason I have made provision for extending those powers for a period of two years, so that there should be adequate time to give full consideration to legislation in regard to the Poor Law system. That is the practical reason for making an extension for two years instead of one. I am satisfied that is a complete justification. Let me say this further to hon. Members. They have referred to the question of parish councils. I was compelled on more than one occasion in Scottish Grand Committee to act on questions dealing with Scotland in no partisan manner, but as one holding an even balance between the various interests concerned, and I think, if hon. Members take the trouble to acquaint themselves with the general view of the parish councils in Scotland they would be readily convinced that if I had proposed to make no such extension as I have made to-night, the first protest would come from these, councils.

Undoubtedly! If hon. Members lay such great store by this question, how was it there was no effort to raise it—or indeed any questions—during the Debate in Scottish Grand Committee? If hon. Members desired, on behalf of the Parish Councils, to have an alteration made, surely some representation would have been made to me or the Scottish Office or some effort would have been made in Scottish Grand Committee to deal with this problem. I cannot accept this Amendment for the reasons I have explained and I hope hon. Members will believe that in making the extension of time for two years instead of one the sole thing that actuated me was the desire that we should have a proper period for the consideration of the wider question of Poor Law reform.

I rise to support this Amendment to which my name happens to be attached. I hope that this matter is not going to be rushed through. It is not part of our seeking that it should come on at this late hour. This is a matter of vital interest to those of us who come from the West of Scotland. I know quite well that some of my colleagues—my English Socialist comrades— when we make reference to the West of Scotland think that we should not do so. But when we do that it is to emphasise the fact that that was what we were sent here for. We were sent here to look after the interests of the folk we represent first and foremost, and then we are prepared to consider others. But we must do our duty by our own people first—those we represent, because we believe that charity begins at home, although it does not end there. It is not true— the statement which has just come from the Secretary of Scotland that we did not vaise this matter with the Scottish Grand Committee. We did raise the matter with the Committee and we fought it to the very best of our ability. It is perfectly true that we did not carry our point of view on the Scottish Grand Committee. Neither do we hope to be able to carry our point here on the floor of the House of Commons. The Scottish Secretary knows perfectly well that he has a huge majority behind him prepared to support him. We are anxious that the time should be extended because there are great works of utility that could be carried out in the West of Scotland if we had the power.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman want two years? Has he any idea that unemployment is going to cease in the West of Scotland or in Scotland generally in two years? He knows perfectly well, if he knows anything at all—and if he does not know anything, I am not responsible for that—that unemployment in the West of Scotland will not be eradicated in two years. It has come to stay as long as the capitalist system will last. We have stated from the West of Scotland, and put it in our Election addresses, that we believe this question of unemployment will bring down all the Governments that stand in the way until the question of unemployment is solved. How do you expect that you are going to get over the big schemes which we have propounded, not only in our Election addresses, not only on the platform, but in the Scottish Grand Committee; yea, verily, I say unto you, even on the floor of the House of Commons. We have stood here and we have asked that great schemes be put in hand in the West of Scotland to take up the unemployed—not at the making of roads, because as an engineer I protest against my fellow craftsmen being put to road-making. The engineering industry is what has made the great British Empire, and the cradle of the engineering industry is Scotland. We are anxious to maintain the great reputation of our people on the banks of the Clyde. How can it be expected that we who have built up a great reputation as being the greatest shipbuilders and the greatest engineers the world has ever seen if——[HON. MEMBERS: "What about England?"]—England is as good, but not better, and you learned it from us With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will prove it to the House. James Watt produced the separate condenser, and you would have had no steam engines without the separate condenser. James Watt, in producing the separate condenser, made the steam engine of commercial value, and accomplished the greatest revolution that the world has ever seen. That in vention has made this great engineering age possible. The people I represent are the heirs of that glorious heritage, and here you—the Tory party, the present ruling class—have the audacity to condemn the people that I represent, the highly intelligent race whom the Romans with their swords, could never subdue.

I am trying, evidently under great difficulties; but I have been up against great difficulties many times and I have managed to such mount them all, and I think I will manage this. We are anxious to get a longer time, and we on these benches do not fear you on the other benches. I am not going to be side-tracked by you any more, but am going on with it. We are anxious to get the time extended for a number of years, and we have Been tied down here to 1930. We have tied our- selves down so that you could not say that we were wild men or extremists. We state a definite time, trying to prove to you that we are practical men. We can see that it is possible for something to be done in that time. The schemes that we have propounded require that length. I, personally, put them before the Labour Government, and we harassed them just in the same way. It is all the same to us whoever is in power; we are going to look after the interests of the folk that we represent. I put a scheme on behalf of the shipbuilding and engineering industry in the West of Scotland before the Minister of Transport in the Labour Government with a view to electrifying all the railways within a thirty miles radius of the City of Glasgow. That would have employed all our people on useful work. That work cannot be carried out in two years; it is a job for ten years, but it would have paid this country, and would have redounded to the credit of the British Empire-. From your own point of view—oh, ye Tories, you should support us here, because we are assisting you to perpetuate capitalism with the ideas that we are putting forward. We see perfectly well that you are rushing ahead to destruction. You are rushing on the rocks; your system is breaking about your ears, but you have not got the sense and the foresight to see it. We, as intelligent men, can see it, and we come before you and we appeal to you, because our folk are going to feel the pinch of the part that you are playing. It is going to come back against our poor people.

That is why we stand here to-night and ask the Secretary for Scotland for an extension of time. Who has got hold of him? I do not know, but there is some power behind the Throne that is dominating him at the moment. I do not know whether it is the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Captain Elliot) or the Lord Advocate, but it certainly is somebody, because in private conversation with the Secretary for Scotland we find there is no man more amenable to reason. But when it comes to the Floor of the House of Commons or in the Scottish Grand Committee—! And let me say that there we have had to protest every time against an Englishman or a Welshman being in the Chair. No matter how we approach these questions, which are of grave importance to our people, the Secretary for Scotland on every occasion turns a deaf ear, but when I meet him as a man, and not as the Secretary for Scotland, I can understand him. It was the same way with the Labour Secretary for Scotland. The Labour Secretary for Scotland, of all men, was the most sympathetic in Great Britain, France and Ireland, and this Tory Secretary for Scotland is walking in his footsteps. Who is responsible for that I cannot tell. This is a serious matter as far as our folk are concerned. None of the great works can be carried out in the time and, unless you are prepared to extend it, all our bright hopes and prospects are dashed by your turning a deaf ear. I appeal to the Secretary for Scotland to accept the Amendment. He accepts absolutely nothing that we put forward. One would think that we do not represent anyone. Everything we put forward you turn down. There is no Amendment, no suggestion that we put before you since you took office either in the Scottish Grand Committee or here on the floor of the House of Commons that you have accepted from us. I want you to remember that we represent people in Scotland just as much as you and we have every right to be considered. Our point of view is just as valuable as yours. Britain is not composed of Secretaries for Scotland or Tories. Britain is composed of Tories, a few Liberals and the Labour party, and we are the left wing of the Labour party, and a very distinct left we are. That being the case, our point of view should receive your serious consideration. I want to say in your presence before the House that our point of view is not receiving your serious consideration. You come down to the House on every occasion with your mind made up before you hear our point of view. I have stated on the Floor of the House that I do not believe that it is necessary for us to advocate direct action or Communism, because I believe it is possible for us to hammer out difficulties on the anvil of the Floor of the House of Commons. Why does not the Secretary for Scotland listen? Why do you not give us some credence when we put things forward? You are driving—

The Secretary for Scotland has an opportunity of allowing us to continue this method of working out our differences and our different points of view. I do not believe that we shall ever get anywhere by bowing, and cow-towing, to one another.

What is the use of us coming here night after night and giving the Government the benefit of our experience if the Government has its mind made up that it is going to give no concession—that is where the difference comes in. I do not wish to carry on any further because my name is down for another Amendment, and I can give the House the assurance that when I get up on this final Amendment the House will not get home and the House will continue far after the break of day.

I desire to support this Amendment, and I would say that coming into the House with the volumes under my arm hon. Members were somewhat amused. These three volumes and the copy of the Bill before the House form a very good reason for the Government, even at this time of the day, to accept the Amendment which has been put forward. I have here a copy of each of the Acts dealing with this question, and it seems to me that it is asking too much from us to submit again to such a short period of time as is contemplated in this Measure. The Secretary for Scotland, when he took part in the discussion, took occasion to say that if opposition to this measure was protracted it would mean that these people in Scotland would have to go without this relief. He suggested that this was not a threat To me it seems that his own statement was really an argument for the Amendment rather than for resisting it. We have the position that the legislation in this connection has already run out and yet the Secretary for Scotland refuses, in dealing with this question for the future, to give the House of Commons the opportunity of coming to a decision on this without being rushed as they are at the present time.

I want to emphasise the fact that the one great reason for the extension of time suggested in the Amendment is that the Secretary for Scotland does not contem- plate, as a result of the magnificent efforts of his Government, that we are going to be able to solve the problem of unemployment and do away with the necessity for able-bodied relief by 1927. He did not suggest it in his speech and no one in his Government suggests it. The Minister of Labour tells us it is going to be a long-drawn-out process; that we cannot hope to solve unemployment by any quick method. Yet, when the House of Commons has to deal with the conditions affecting so many of these people, the Secretary for Scotland refuses this Amendment which is going to give to himself, to his Government, and to the Scottish Office, opportunities for dealing in a far more thorough mariner with the problem without the necessity of coming in 1927 and asking hurriedly for an extension of the measure again.

I wonder if the Secretary for Scotland is of a somewhat pessimistic nature; whether he is less optimistic than some of the people sitting behind him on the back benches. I know many of them would see no difficulty with regard to 1927. To my mind the Secretary for Scotland is resisting this Amendment because he has no great faith in the life of his Government, and he is hopeful that the next Labour Government will find it a source of embarrassment having to come to the House in 1927 to ask for a continuance of this Measure. If you take the way in which the House has dealt with this question in the past, I find that in November, 1921, we had the first of these measures, mentioned in this Bill, which was passed by the House of Commons— the Poor Law Provisions (Scotland) Act, 1921. In November the Coalition Government was face to face with a very difficult situation. That situation, so far as Scotland was affected, was much worse than in England, because there was not the provision in the Scottish law for providing relief for able-bodied men. The Secretary for Scotland complains that we did not raise this question on the Second Reading and in Committee. Personally I raised it with him on the Second Reading of this Measure, and suggested that he should deal with this matter and put the able-bodied men of Scotland into as good a position as the able-bodied unemployed men in England. In November, 1921, the House of Commons had to pass emergency legislation and an Act was put upon the Statute Book. Then the Members of the Coalition, who are represented by the hon. Members who sit on the other side of the House and the handful who remain below the Gangway, were of opinion that unemployment was not going to last so long. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was told by his adviser "Six months and it will be all right." When at the end of six months he asked "What now?" he got the reply "It is just about the turn: another six months." Naturally when the Government's advisers took that point of view we had the Measure for a short time. Events happened. The Coalition which seemed to be just as mighty an organisation as the Conservative coalition we have at the present time broke down. It collapsed owing to the efforts of some of the Members opposite, and to their own surprise the Conservatives obtained a majority and they were able to form a Government.

So far as Scotland was concerned they were in a minority, and so, as they could not bring in a Measure like they brought in this year, they took advantage of an English Measure—the Local Authorities Emergency Provisions Act, 1923—and in that Act they included a Clause dealing with Scotland and continuing this Poor Law Emergency Provisions (Scotland) Act. Now they are back again on these benches and I want to put it to them that for their own sake—seeing that they have got momentarily a majority in Scotland—they should take advantage of the co-operation we are offering to them by taking an extension of time. I venture to remind the Secretary for Scotland of what was said to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs about "six months" and "six months," and to remind him of the terrible fate that befell that right hon. Gentleman through listening to these advisers. There is everything to be gained by taking a longer period. We are going on for twelve months and twelve months, and whenever one tries to deal with an important question the Minister says, "If you do not let it go through, a whole lot of poor fellows will suffer." If you take the power for a decent time, and the necessity passes away, it would be a far more simple thing to bring in your amending legislation. In the last Parliament we had this same Measure before us. Each time a little difference is made in it; a little bit added to it. The Secretary for Scotland was, I think, responsible for putting in a very desirable bit in connection with the labour that would be employed. He is evidently now in a less reasonable state of mind and he is going to withdraw it. To-night we offer the Government the opportunity of putting on the Statute Book for a term of years a Measure that will allow them to deal with the conditions of the unemployed people in so far as they are affected by relief work of one kind or another so that the Government will be able to take the opportunity of viewing the situation. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the position—to come to this matter with an open mind, and not simply to allow advisers, officials or others, to unduly influence him. I have in my hand a Report of the Board of Health for Scotland. I am sorry it is not the Report for this year. I would have liked to have got a copy. We are all looking forward to this year's volume, and, incidentally, I take this opportunity of asking the Secretary for Scotland to press it forward. We would like to get it before August. In the report for the previous year I find that in connection with these schemes contemplated under this Bill that parish councils are not exercising to any great extent the powers which are contained in the Sub-section. The report states: of accepting the alteration that has been suggested to him, and so I would ask him to reconsider the position and make this more helpful to the parish councils. It would certainly give some measure of assurance to the able-bodied unemployed.

As representing one of the largest industrial districts in the East of Scotland, I would like to say a word in support of the Amendment. I think we have a real right to complain of the tone of the Secretary for Scotland in his defence. It is not the fault of any any Members on this side of the House that these matters are being debated at this hour of the night. We have to debate them when the Orders which the Government arrange are put on the Paper, and owing to the delay which is not the fault of the Opposition, a very strong position is arising, and the Secretary for Scotland has only saved himself and the legal authorities in Scotland from the possibility of legal action by the happy reference—which I do not think he was aware of—of the Statute of George III, which apparently has saved him from a difficulty.

I will respect your ruling, Sir, but I want the hon. Gentleman to know it is not Indians he is dealing with.

I am entitled to make remarks with reference to the Amendment and I would tell the Under-Secretary for India (Earl Winterton) that he is dealing with Moplahs now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I will wait till the Under-Secretary of State for India has finished his remarks. The first thing to remember is this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] This is a Bill for continuing for a further period in Scotland a power which in England is permanent. The English Boards of Guardians have power to grant relief to able-bodied men and it is permanent. That power does not exist in Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] The first thing to be remembered in this connection is that the condition of affairs is in no sense comparable to the condition of affairs in the old days. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] You are asked to prolong this Bill from 1927 to 1930 and to make the power permanent in Scotland as it exists in England. The Secretary for Scotland has not put up any defence.

If, on the other hand, he says this is a Bill which must go on for the time being until we have time to reconsider the question, then he should not prolong the date to a date when it is more than possible that we may be in the throes of a General Election and the Parish Councils may find themselves without the powers necessary for the discharge of their duties. One merit, at any rate, about 1930 is that it will certainly carry us into a new Parliament. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I would remind hon. Members of the Quinquennial Act in order to make the elementary explanations quite complete. There will be a General Election before that date, and if this Act is continued as suggested in the Amendment the powers will continue until the new Parliament is elected. But for the two years there is no justification whatever. The only justification put forward by the Secretary for Scotland is that they are going to amend the Poor Law, and he hits on two years as the period. But when the Poor Law is amended, will not all this Act go, whether it be two years or five, and will not the English Act also have to be amended when the Poor Law is reformed? For the right hon. Gentleman to say that he has hit on this peculiar period of two years because he has got a large scheme of Poor Law reform in view is not a defence which will stand a moment's examination, because he knows perfectly well that if he introduces a Bill to reform the Poor Law in Scotland or England, supposing this were made 1930, supposing this Act were continued as a permanency, it is only necessary for him to put a Clause in the Bill or a line in the Schedule of the Bill to repeal the Act and replace it by something in his new scheme. I trust I have kept to the limits of the Amendment. I think I have been able to show that in the so-called defence for the delay and for the very peculiar constitutional position for which the Secretary of Scotland and the Lord Advocate are responsible, the lines of defence adopted by the Secretary for Scotland are not defensible, and can be carried by anybody in argument. I hope therefore that the Secretary for Scotland will see his way to accept a very modest Amendment, and, if not, and Tellers are appointed, I shall go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.

Before the Division is taken, there is a question I wish to put to the Secretary for Scotland, arising from the very important statement that he has made to the House. When he told us, in justification for resisting this Amendment, that he intended to amend the Poor Law next year, he made a statement of more than passing interest. We had a statement from the Minister of Health in the course of the Debate on the Pensions Bill this week to the effect that he intended to introduce a Measure to reform the Poor Law in England. We all know, or assume, that in the very nature of things the reform of the Poor Law in England and the reform of the Poor Law in Scotland cannot very well be carried out in one Bill, and I think we are entitled to know whether it is the intention of the Government to press two such Measures through the House of Commons next year. If the Measure for England and Wales is to be pressed upon us, it undoubtedly will occupy the whole of the Session, and if it is not the intention of the Government to press the second Measure through next year, then the only justification for resisting this Amendment falls to the ground. I would like, therefore, that the House should be informed whether the Government have come to a decision as indicated by the statement to which we have just listened, and if that decision is to the effect that two Bills will be introduced and pressed through the House of Commons in the course of the next Session of Parliament.

It is, of course, correct to say that I have already made quite clear to the House that the reason why I have extended the limit of this Act for two years instead of one was in order to give my Office and those concerned the time to draft a measure of Poor Law reform. It is equally obvious that if a measure of Poor Law reform is to be introduced, it must be a separate Bill dealing with Scotland. As to the exact time when that may be introduced, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will realise I can give no definite undertaking at this stage.

I suggest that the House might now come to a decision. There are two other Amendments on the Paper.

The House, I think, will hear the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Scrymgeour) shortly, but after that it will desire to divide.

We have not had Scotland obtaining the treatment which I maintain she deserves. This is the second occasion within the last few days in the House of Commons that Scotland, to my mind, has been crowded into a very back seat indeed, and most unjust treatment given to one of the most important questions we have to handle. It was an utter disgrace to us that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer should have told a deputation from Dundee that he had no knowledge of there being a difference between the Scottish and the English Poor Law, and that the Parish Councils should be left with the impression that the moneys which were raised for this purpose would be reimbursed by the Government. They have been let down completely in regard to the whole of this business, and to talk now about the prospects of dealing with the Poor Law does not get hold of the situation as it really confronts us. I think it was very discreditable to see any Front Bench representative of the Government give evidence of disapprobation of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), who, I regret to say, is the only Liberal Member from Scotland who has given any evidence of interest in this Bill.

I think it is due to several of my Liberal Friends from Soot- land to say that they have been here ready to support the hon. Gentleman.

They may have been ready, but I do not see them.

Question put, "That the word 'twenty-seven' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 152; Noes, 57.

Division No. 111.]

AYES.

[2.0 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Nelson, Sir Frank

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Goff, Sir Park

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Grotrian, H. Brent

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Oakley, T.

Balniel, Lord

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Pennefather, Sir John

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Hammersley, S. S.

Perring, William George

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Prise, Major C. W. M.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Harland, A.

Radford, E. A.

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Bethell, A.

Hartington, Marquess of

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Blundell, F. N.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Rye, F. G.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Haslam, Henry C.

Salmon, Major I.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hawke, John Anthony

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Briscoe, Richard George

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Shepperson, E. W.

Bullock, Captain M.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Skelton, A. N.

Burman, J. B.

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hilton, Cecil

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Chapman, Sir S.

Homan, C. W. J.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Christie, J. A.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Cooper, A. Duff

Huntingfield, Lord

Sugden, Sir Wilfred

Cope, Major William

Jacob, A. E.

Templeton, W. P.

Couper, J. B.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lamb, J. Q.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Loder J. de V.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Looker, Herbert William

Watts, Dr. T.

Dixey, A. C.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Wells, S. R.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Lumley, L. R.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Elveden, Viscount

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Macintyre, Ian

Wise. Sir Fredric

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

McLean, Major A.

Womersley, W. J.

Fielden, E. B.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Ford, P. J.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Margesson, Capt. D.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Colonel Gibbs and Mr. Frederick Thomson.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Moreing, Captain A. H.

NOES.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hardie, George D.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Batey, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Scrymgeour, E.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scurr, John

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Buchanan, G.

Hirst, G. H.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Clowes, S.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Cluse, W. S.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Stephen, Campbell

Compton, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sutten, J. E.

Cove, W. G.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Thurtle, E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Welsh, J. C.

Day, Colonel Harry

Kennedy, T.

Westwood, J.

Fenby, T. D.

Kirkwood, D.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gibbins, Joseph

Lansbury, George

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Gillett, George M.

Lawson, John James

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lunn, William

Windsor, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mackinder, W.

Wright, W.

Grundy, T. W.

March, S.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Maxton, James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Sakiatvala, Shapurji

Mr. Warne and Mr. Parkinson.

I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out from the word "twenty-seven" to the end of the Clause.

This Amendment in our opinion is necessary. I promise I will not take much time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I will try to keep in order. I will not take much time, provided there is some sort of reasonableness about the Secretary for Scotland, otherwise it is just possible that a considerable amount of time may be wasted. This Amendment, if carried, will put the Poor Law Emergency Act in the position it was prior to the coming into office of the present Government. We believed on this side of the House that the question contained in the Bill as it stood, had got a final resting place and that no attempt would be made, after the long discussion when the Bill conferring this power upon parish councils was debated, to disturb it again. We expected that our friends on the other side would have accepted the position that then existed. I am wondering whether any information has come to the Secretary for Scotland during his period of office to suggest that the parish councils were dissatisfied with the conditions of the previous Act. He made great play in the Grand Committee, and in this present debate, with the parish councils of Scotland having a right to make a protest, if they care, against the proposals that are embodied in this Bill. I should like to know whether any of the parish councils in Scotland, and, if any, in what part of Scotland, have protested against the continuance of the powers that we conferred on them by the previous Act? I submit that the Secretary for Scotland will not be able to answer that question. I do not think he can give a single protest by a parish council against the Act that expired last week. I cannot conceive any good reason why the Secretary for Scotland should seek to introduce into this Measure a question which is so much discussed. It is a matter of very vital principle so far as we are concerned. While we may not be able to talk just the language you have at Cambridge—[HON. MEMBERS: "We cannot hear you."] There are some things we know in connection with these matters.

I was led to believe by the Secretary for Scotland that he was approaching the consideration of this question apart entirely from political partisanship, that he was anxious only to serve the interests of the country of which he is an honoured member. If he was doing so, he would be the first to admit it. I do not expect some of our younger friends on the other side would make many admissions of that kind; they have a lot to learn. The Members sitting on these benches who come from Scotland have some knowledge of the conditions under which unemployment benefit is being paid and the relationship between parish councils, local authorities and the employment exchange. I happen to come from a part of Scotland where there is a. considerable amount of unemployment. There is a very large number of those who are unemployed who are not receiving unemployment benefit. For some reason or another they believe that they are the children of the same God as men here profess to believe in and so, I take it, they will be entitled to get as much as keep body and soul together. If they have to get sufficient to maintain themselves it is from the parish they get it. Many of them are able-bodied men, able and willing to work, who are not allowed to work because the majority of Members of this House believe that no man should be allowed to work unless someone else can make a profit out of him. These men are being turned off by a department of the present Government without compunction, without any attempt to prove that the men are incapable of working or unwilling to work. These are the men whose cases would come up for consideration first by any Parish Council, no matter how the Parish Council was composed. I know in the Parish Council where I live they have been particularly anxious on this question that they should be allowed to transfer a considerable number of their members who were drawing relief from the parish to public works that are being carried on by the local authority. Their experience has been that the local authority and the Employment Exchange are unwilling to take these men, although they profess to be anxious to do so. I know any number of ex-service men who were for years in the War, and are now no longer able to work, and they got no pension or any benefit of any kind. They have to rely on what they get from parish relief. There is not any class of employer prepared to employ a disabled ex-service man in place of a competent able-bodied man. There is no use hon. members "codding" themselves into the belief that the private employer is going to employ somebody that is less capable than others who are quite willing to take up the work.

I am not complaining about contractors not employing ex-service or disabled men. There are many ways for a man to become disabled. I belong to an industry that in the last few years has had more casualties than all the wars that Britain has been engaged in. Something like 200,000 casualties take place each year. No man is injured once, twice or three times without becoming very much deteriorated, and when he comes into the labour market the private employer is not prepared to employ him if he can get an abler man to do his service. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will not the 'Daily Herald'"?] You would be a better man if you read the "Daily Herald," and not only read it but tried to understand it. You can get common sense there. But I do not want to be diverted from my argument. It was the Government's intention to take away from the powers—

The hon Member, if he had attended the Committee or paid the slightest attention to the debate must know perfectly well that what he says is incorrect. We are taking nothing from the powers previously held. We only ask to extend those powers so as to give more employment.

We happen to be living in parishes where the unemployed predominate and we have to deal every weekend with men who have been turned off the parish and private employers will not engage them. I can promise hon. Members that we do not want to be unreasonable on this side of the House. I can appreciate the difficulty of the situation. I know that the job is not an easy one but I should like hon. Members to admit that we on this side of the House know something of the actual situation. So far as it affects the ordinary working man. I am speaking from experience of the matter, and I may assure hon. Members on the other side that the unemployed workman disabled in industry or dis- abled in the general service of the country is at a very considerable disadvantage if he goes to find work with a private employer. But there is nothing in the proposals you are seeking to embody in this Bill that will make the position easier for these men and I submit, that the prime purpose of legislation of this kind should be to make it easier—to make it possible—that all disabled men —whether disabled in industry or when on national service—to find employment. I am quite sure it cannot be done, men are dependent entirely on the tender offices of the private employer. The Secretary for Scotland, when we were discussing this Bill with the House on the Second reading, told us that the questions we were raising were matters that could be considered, and he suggested that he would be willing to give reasonable consideration to any suggestion we might make. It is true I was not present on the day that the Scottish Grand Committee met, but I have gone through the OFFICIAL REPORT and I find that the only person who spoke in the Committee from the opposition side was the right hon. Gentleman himself. No other Member from a Scottish constituency sitting on the Capitalist side of the House had anything to say. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which is the Capitalist side of the House?"] This is the Socialist side, and hon. Members opposite are on the capitalist benches. In any case the right hon. Gentleman did not keep his promise. Not a single suggestion that was offered was accepted by him, and in the Debate the right hon. Gentleman who preceded him dealt with this very question. I think it will be agreed that during his tenure of office he will get to know very quickly what are the views of the parish councils who will not allow matters to remain as they are. While not suggesting that things are as good as they might be or that work is found for all the people that require it, there is, at least, a better chance for men disabled or men who have been for some years unemployable and who are now finding it difficult to get employment. It was much better for them to get back to a normal position of service under a public authority than under private control.

But are not the private employers of this country employing at the present time 90 per cent. disabled men?

No, they are not. If they are doing it in your constituency they are not doing it in Hamilton. I do not know what the conditions are in Birmingham or any other part of the country, but I do know that there are hundreds of able-bodied men willing to work, and because they have been disabled on one or two occasions in industry—and most of them are men who have gone through the war—they are finding it impossible to get work now.

(Mr. James Hope): I think hon. Members will not be contributing to shortness of debate by their interruptions.

It is beside the point. If we were dealing with the question that is raised, I might have something to say and give some points to show that what I am saying on the matter is fairly accurate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Fairly!"] I do not claim to be capable of telling the absolute truth, but I quite understand that nobody else on the other side can tell it any better. The Amendment that I am moving is merely asking that this Bill should be the same as the last Act in so far as the powers of parish councils and local authorities are concerned. In view of the difficulty that the Secretary for Scotland found himself in at the beginning of this Debate, I think it would be advisable—and I hope he will agree—to accept the position that we are offering. We are not asking for any extension of power to the parish councils; we are not asking that they should be given something for nothing. We are only asking that the law which has been in operation in Scotland for the last couple of years should be continued. If it is to be continued, there is no reason for the Government changing the language of the Bill. The very fact that you have changed the language of the Bill means that you intend thereby a change in the policy. Otherwise there would be no reason for it, and I submit that if the last Act was sufficient to satisfy the claims that we are putting forward—and I hope it will be accepted that we are speaking at least on behalf of a certain proportion of the unemployed workmen—and if the Secretary for Scotland is agreeable to carry out the promise that he made on Second Reading of accepting any reasonable suggestion offered, then I submit that the suggestion that the law as it stood should still remain the law is a very reasonable one. I hope the Secretary for Scotland will agree to accept it. I am only asking him to do what I would do myself if I were in his place. That is a good old law. Possibly the Government may have decided, but if the Secretary for Scotland could use his discretion in the matter I submit it would be advisable for the harmony of the future proceedings to accept this very reasonable Amendment that I am asking the House to accept. I know that when the Bill was first introduced and when it contained this provision that we are so anxious should be continued, the Scottish Secretary at that time did not offer very strong objections. I think he agreed it was not an unreasonable position. Certainly, so far as I am aware, no protest came from any part of Scotland in regard to the matter, and because of these facts I hope the Secretary for Scotland will agree to allow the late Act to remain the law in future so far as Scotland is concerned.

I beg to second the Amendment.

It seeks to delete the powers contained in this Bill which would allow Parish Councils to provide moneys to private contractors for the purpose of so-called relief of the unemployed. It is quite a revolutionary proposal, and is something that was not contained in the previous Acts of Parliament dealing with this particular problem. No private contractor takes a contract for the purpose of employing unemployed men. Every private contractor who takes a contract takes it for the purpose of making as much money as he possibly can. There is a challenge come from the other side: can we prove that contractors do not employ their fair share of ex-Service men who may be disabled? I accept that challenge from, I think, the Secretary of the Federated British Industries. I am going to prove it. In my own home town of Kirkcaldy we managed to get the promise of a grant, from the Conservative Government I think it was, for the purpose of carrying through a big foreshore scheme of improvement, and we found, after the scheme had been completed, that we had no possibility at that time of getting the promised grant of £80,000. Why? Because the company who had taken the contract had not employed the necessary percentage of ex-service men. That surely proves that at least one contractor was not prepared to employ his fair share of ex-service men. But he went further than that. Although this proposed grant was offered for the purpose of helping unemployment, and although the ratepayers in that particular area were prepared to pay their share for helping unemployment in their own district, as they expected, they found that, because the contractor wanted to make the biggest profits possible in the shortest time possible, they were not even getting the unemployed of Kirkcaldy employed by that particular contractor. It is wrong for any proposal to be made by Parliament to allow parish councils to give money to contractors for the purpose of helping the so-called unemployed. If it comes to the question of taking any unemployed man they will choose the man most physically fit for the particular job on which the contractor is working. It will not be a question of the number of the family of the unemployed man; it will not be a question of the length of period that he may be unemployed. A family becomes a burden upon the ratepayers in that particular locality, having to pay his own rates for the purpose of helping to pay money to the contractor so that the contractor may be enabled to employ a young man more physically fit than the married man. No one can justify that which would allow these things to be done.

I want to suggest there ought to be a spirit of sweet reasonableness on the part of the Secretary for Scotland. I know of no Bill discussed in this Parliament affecting Scotland where we have had any concessions from the Secretary for Scotland. Surely he will give us some concessions. We are not, in this particular Amendment which I am seconding, asking for an extension of the powers of the 1924 Act. We are asking you not to take powers and to give powers to the parish council which, in our opinion, they ought not to have. We believe it is wrong that public money should be used for the subsidising of contractors. I have had experience of going to a colliery, only employed two days, and offered a place at 1d. per ton less than the man already entered. What applied in my case applied generally, so far as the unemployed is concerned. The proposal in this Bill that we are asking to delete by this Amendment would allow public moneys to be paid by parish councils for the purpose of subsidising contractors, whose only interest was not in the unemployed, but in seeking to exploit the unemployed, to make profits, and not help to solve the unemployed problem.

I regret that my hon. Friends think I have not exhibited that measure of sweet reasonableness which they anticipated. I do not think that I have ever said that I should commit myself to accept any or all of the Amendments which were moved by the other side. What I did say was that in Committee and under proper circumstances I should listen with the greatest attention and consideration to any alteration or improvements which hon. Gentlemen might make. I think it will be within the recollection of those who attended the Scottish Grand Committee that at least the fullest opportunity was given to them to put their point of view. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham), in moving this Amendment, has, if I may say so frankly, made one or two statements which I am sure on consideration he will see should be corrected. He said, in the first place, that private employers under this scheme were going to exploit disabled men. This is a Measure dealing with the able-bodied unemployed and does not—

May I be allowed to correct. I did not say that the private contractor was going to exploit disabled men. What I did say was that the disabled men had the least chance. I had no intention of making such an unreasonable charge.

The rates of relief of the disabled man remain unchanged. He is not affected by it. Let me explain what this proposal does mean. It means that at the request of a large number of representative Parish Councils in Scotland, who have ascertained by circum- stances which should come home to those administering this question that it is not giving the fullest measure of employment to people either in Hamilton or elsewhere, additional powers are to be given. The main meeting at which that request was made was in 1923. Subsequently to my taking office I circularised the Parish Councils in Scotland and I have unanimous requests from 40 at least of the larger of these bodies pointing out that if they had these powers it would in their judgment give employment to thousands of men. Let me wipe out another fallacy which has been repeated here to-night. A statement was made in Committee and it was there corrected that we proposed to empower Parish Councils to give a direct subsidy to the private contractor. That is not so. What we do ask is that power shall be given to a Parish Council to enter into an agreement with the local authority—which, after all, is the body which is going to make the arrangements for this scheme— to enter into an agreement with them on terms which are acceptable to the representatives, popularly elected. I have yet to learn that it can be substantiated that a public local authority in Scotland or Parish Council had purely exploited the interest, under any of these schemes, of the unemployed people in their districts. If any hon. Members in this House got up and made that statement it could be placed on record. I believe it cannot be said. Then, indeed, what justification is there for hon. Members to assume that on giving these powers to these Parish Councils they will enter into agreements in the future which will be to the detriment of these people? What we are asking is that these local authorities shall have these extended powers in order that they may give the able-bodied unemployed that measure of employment which is desirable they should have, and that alone has actuated the Government in making this extension. In these circumstances I am sure they will realise that the Government cannot agree to the Amendment.

I rise to support the Amendment. The Government state that they have taken into serious consideration every point which we have brought forward. That may be so, but, so far as my recollection serves me, on not one single occasion in the Scottish Grand Committee, or here, have the suggestions of the Members who sit around me, and who come from the great industrial centres, been accepted. Surely it cannot be possible that they are always wrong and that the people on the other benches of the House are always right. Surely men engaged in the same kind of occupation, and who have lived in the districts which hava sent them here, must by chance be right once in a way. I and my friends have a great regard for the Secretary for Scotland, but I submit that those who have returned us to this House again and again believe that we are the best qualified men to represent them because we have intimate personal knowledge of the conditions under which these people are living and working. I am a man not endued with any great ability for this kind of work, and I always get up with some hesitancy to speak. I want to put in a word on the human side. It may be too late, but the morning is early yet. I have worked many a time a double shift that has given me more satisfaction than I get in some of this work.

I happen to be a member for a big industrial centre, and I happen to be a Member who has defeated his opponents on two occasions although they have combined forces to throw me out. I had the additional advantage of hearing one of my opponents say that he did not know anything about politics, and it is a good thing he was not returned to this House. It is true. He was a big contractor. Apart from these irrelevancies, Sir—I am just as aware as anybody else that they are irrelevant remarks, but they would not be if you would allow me to get on.

On a point of Order. May I call attention to a recumbent figure, and ask for the removal of the corpse?

On a point of Order. I do not know whether your attention has been called to the hon. Member. We do not know whether he is dead or alive.

When I was interrupted, I was speaking of men who have every desire to work, but in many cases have met with misfortune, and who write to me week by week to plead their case. I sent to the Minister of Labour this very day the case of a man who was a highly skilled workman and who was anxious to obtain work. Such men are being dismissed from the Employment Exchanges because they are regarded as not being genuinely seeking work, although in one case a man had sent nine certificates in 12 days as a guarantee that he was actually seeking employment. I want to say a word on behalf of the harassed and distressed wife.

I would remind the hon. Member that he must address himself to the Amendment, otherwise it may be my painful duty to ask him to resume his seat.

Perhaps it would please hon. Members opposite that I should be asked to do so. After a threat like that, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]. I submit that as one who 8eldom rises to address this House, and having regard to the discussion which has taken place, it was a rather peremptory threat. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] It is all very well to shout "Order." I can do so as loud as any of you. The point I want to make is that we have arrived at a very distressing condition of affairs in the West of Scotland. Although it may be a matter of hilarity for men who are well fed and well clothed, it is a very serious matter to people living under the conditions they are living under. I hope very earnestly that for once the Amendment we have moved will be carried.

3.0 A.M.

I wish to detain the House for one or two minutes to protest against the unwarrantable and unjustifiable charges made against employers of labour by the hon. Member on the other side of the House. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) went out of his way to attack private employers in this country because he said they were prepared to exploit disabled men. At the close of the War private employers in this country rendered yeoman service by making sacrifices in order to give disabled men a chance of finding employment. I think it is wholly unwarrantable to make a charge of that kind against people who, in season and out of season, endeavoured to do their best for those men. The hon. Member made a distinct charge against the firm of contractors in this country of great public reputation—Sir R. McAlpine and Sons.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon. It was the hon. Gentleman who seconded the Motion who referred to Messre. McAlpine and Sons. Of all the big firms in this country who gave opportunities of employment to disabled men, Messrs. McAlpine and Son—

I made a specific charge that in a particular case Messrs. McAlpine and Sons did not employ the necessary percentage of ex-service men, and for that reason the Corporation of Kirkcaldy was threatened with the loss of £800,000, and we were ultimately enabled to get that grant as the result of negotiations through the Labour Government during its period in office.

I assure the House that the firm provided opportunities of employment for ex-service men.

A great deal has been said during the course of the Debate on the importance of parish councils and other public authorities having certain privileges conferred upon them so that the might employ disabled men. It will be within the recollection of the House that attention has been frequently called to the difficulty of getting local authorities to sign the King's Roll. Private employers of the country in great numbers— in the vast majority of cases— have signed the King's Roll. Our difficulty has been to get public authorities, and municipal authorities in particular, to sign the Roll. Charges of that kind should not be made against private employers by hon. Members opposite. Their very best friends in the country to-day are the private employers. They ought not to use opportunities in this House to speak against people who give them their daily bread.

I rise to support the Amendment. In doing so I fully realise that I am not supporting a cause that is going to win in the lobbies. It was only on Tuesday night that the followers of the Government had been weeded out of what little conscience they had, and since then they have not had sufficient time to recover. It is just as easy for them to support their leaders whether they are right or wrong. I am perfectly sure that the reclining figure on the back bench will become perpendicular when the Division comes, and that he will vote for the Government. What we fail to understand is why the Tory Government should have permitted the Secretary for Scotland to put in this Clause which would effectively destroy from top to bottom all the claims put forward by Tories and by champions of private enterprise. We are told in season and out of season that there is nothing in the world which is possible of being carried out which private enterprise fails to observe; to find out, to discover and to put into execution for the benefit of mankind. We are told time after time that, if private enterprise were stopped, the spirit of inventions, the spirit of discovery will all go away and nobody will care to find out anything new or beneficial for mankind; that the world will become a humdrum world. We therefore take it for granted that following this championship of private enterprise there will be nothing; even in Scotland which private enterprise would fail to perceive if some benefit was to be conferred on human society.

If there be any truth in the claim put forward on behalf of private enterprise, or if there is any sincerity in the belief in private enterprise by hon. Members opposite who pretend to believe in it, then they must take it for granted that accidental profit will have been exhausted before unemployment is created. We take it for granted that in every district in Scotland where there are these benevolent and honest and enterprising private enterprises, everything that is achievable in this world will have been taken in hand by these champions of private enterprise. We are given to understand that, when they fail, there is no power on earth that can carry on what private enterprise cannot carry on, and at that stage we are told that unemployment becomes an inevitable condition of human society. When we lay the charge from this side against that system of society, that unemployment is created, not through want of possibilities of work, but through the greed of private enterprise, which would sooner see human life strangled and driven to starvation rather than see profits diminish, they say "No," but here they say there are private contractors existing in Scotland, of all places, where they will take up the last sixpence if they can, and we are told there are private contracting firms, benevolent merchants, friends of disabled soldiers, who are—

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member in order: is he keeping to the point?

The Amendment before the House is to strike out the power allowing grants to be made in cases other than those of employment by local authorities.

We are now told that in Scotland of all places there are enterprising persons, benevolent merchants and friends of the disabled ex-service men who see chances of work and of doing something for the benefit of society, and yet for some mysterious reason do not want to do it.

Every time after an interruption I have to pick up the threads of my argument, and gentlemen in private enterprise must understand that when you pick up the thread you pick up the broken end first and then piece it up at the new end. Leaving my twice repeated argument I will now ask them to realise that the Secretary for Scotland has not yet explained to us first of all why there are contractors and private enterprises who are failing in their great sacred mission of carrying on private enterprise and why they allow unemployment to come into existence in the first instance, and why it does become necessary for public funds—

The general question of the merits of private enterprise is not in order on this Amendment. The question is simply whether the local authorities should be empowered to let work to contractors, instead of employing direct labour.

In supporting this Amendment I wish to point out, not only that it is not desirable, but that the Government are doing something which is wasteful of public revenues and contrary to the actions of persons who stand as trustees in charge of public revenues, and on the stronger ground I decline to accept the Government proposals. The Government must admit that private contractors must fail in perceiving the possibilities of work, and by their own admission must declare themselves to be men without ability to carry through these contracts with benefit to society and without loss to anyone. It is only after that stage that unemployment comes into existence, and it is at this stage that the parish councils and local authorities are asked to come to the relief of those human beings who are deserted by private contractors, whom the private contractors not only will not employ, but will stop from employing themselves by witholding from them the means of work, the tools of work and the place of work. Once the private contractors, by their own admission, declare this inability of theirs we fail to see how any parish council or local authority can with justice and economy and righteousness employ these private enterprises and private contractors over again. They can only deliberately waste public funds, they can only deliberately take in hand public schemes and put them into operation through those very channels that have first declared themselves bankrupt of the ability and talent to put those schemes through.

Under these conditions, I submit that the Government's proposals in the Bill, as it is presented to us, coming from a party that believes in private enterprise, is a deliberate suggestion for misuse of public funds. It cannot be anything else but a veiled scheme of giving out under the name of the unemployed doles to private enterprises. It is from this point of view that I not only object, but I am rather surprised that a Tory Government should sanction one of its own Ministers to bring forward such a scheme. After the vote on the first Amendment, I suppose I shall be in order to read the amended Bill as proposed by this second Amendment in the light of the success of the Government Benches in rejecting the first Amendment.

I submit we have now to read the Government scheme with the definite and determined conditions for the employment of private contractors within the limited period of two years which issue has now been decided. I want to submit that the Government has accepted and admitted that there is something like profiteering.

I will try to keep within the limits of the ruling of the Chair. I am always tempted to follow the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) in his defence of private enterprise. I do not, however, intend to go on with his line of argument and the reference to Sir Robert McAlpine. It might be as well if the House were given some history of why we are discussing this Amendment. I have sat throughout this Debate almost with amazement and wonder why the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health in the 1923 Parliament displayed a great amount of capacity under very difficult circumstances. To a large extent he was the author of the original Clause that we are now seeking to amend to-day. I would ask the Secretary for Scotland if they go back to 1920 whether the Act was not for one purpose only, namely, that the public money should be used for the relief of the poor in the various parishes. Then in 1923 the Under-Secretary came along and drafted a Clause for the purpose of granting to the local authorities this, or a portion of this, money. Now we are asked to extend it further. The Secretary for Scotland in Committee, if I may say so, is the most case-hearted of men that we have in this House. We used to get something from the hon. Member for Kelvingrove, but in this Parliament I can only see a concession the day after the Secretary for Scotland has ceased to hold office. As long as he is in office we shall get none. He is the Tory die-hard in this Parliament.

Work is being given to the private contractor. What I do say is that no money would be paid by the parish council to the local authority unless the men to whom it was paid were being employed. When they ceased being employed the money would cease to be paid. Take the Glasgow-Edinburgh road. I think there are 1,000 men being employed. Those 1,000 men are all on parish relief. I think the Under-Secretary knows that It is chiefly his Department that is concerned. He will, I think, agree that everyone of these men is a married man with a family. Almost every week groups of these men—whether it is due to the private contractor or not —are dismissed from their work. There is a constant coming and going at the work. If we are to go on, you are bound to set up some sort of a Department to watch the times of stopping and starting of the payments given. The difficulty arises from 20 or 30 men being sent from the parish to the work. They are in receipt of parish relief. They get a job in their own trade and, without informing a single soul, they immediately leave and go back to the shipyard or elsewhere. That money stops, or should stop, at once. But unless you have some check you are dependent on the honesty of the contractor as to whether the money will still be paid. I would like the Secretary for Scotland to face that practical difficulty. Look what happens to these road schemes. I was in the Glasgow Corporation, and during the four years I was there it was the worst four years for unemployment. We were constantly promoting schemes. We had hardly got them started before a proportion of the men left for the shipyards or other work. They were constantly leaving to go to the locomotive works or shipyards. New men were coming in. Unless you have some system of check; unless you have a clerk or some person constantly there, you are depending completely on the honesty of the employers for the return of that public money. I am not going to submit that no public contractor, no matter how high spirited he may be, cannot be relied upon, but in the expenditure of public money you must have some form of control and some system of ensuring that the money is stopped the moment a man leaves. Neither the Secretary for Scotland, nor the Under-Secretary, has told us what check you can put on. You take what we had in the Glasgow Corporation and public parks. We proceeded to make a lake; we employed hundreds of men for the work. Men left it to go back to their former work. We would need some form of audit, some form of check.

I see even a greater danger than that —a danger of which the House ought to be fully conscious. The money ought to be devoted to public utility purposes for the relief of unemployment. What does the Lord Advocate say regarding this legal point—what do you mean by "public utility"? Hitherto, our discussion has been confined to road making and works of a similar character. A demand might be made for shipyard or commercial purposes. I ask the Lord Advocate whether this money—the rates —could be used for any other purpose than work which has been sanctioned by the local authorities, but is going to be carried out by a private contractor? Under the Bill I cannot see but that the local authority might come to an arrangement for work to be done in engineering. I would like an assurance that at least the thing will be confined to schemes similar to our Glasgow-Edinburgh road.

There is another point I want to raise. In Scotland, unlike England, we have never had the system known as "task work." We have been free from it. I want to raise what I think is a danger regarding "task work" being involved for the first time in Scotland. I can see that men will be dismissed from the road schemes. It may be that I am unduly suspicious, but I want a guarantee that if an employer sends in a report against men saying that they are dismissed for insufficient work, that is not going to be used for depriving these men of their parish council relief. These men may be dismissed because they are not labourers. A craftsman of my own trade would not make a good navvy; he might make a very bad navvy and it would not pay the contractor to keep him. He may dismiss him because he is not even a middling good navvy. But that is not a reason why men should be deprived of parish council relief. Although the man dismissed may not be a good navvy he may be a good workman. I want the Secretary for Scotland to assure us that this is not the first step to introduce anything in the modified form of task work in Scotland. I hope the Secretary of Scotland will give this point I have raised his serious attention. I want to know what steps he is taking to ensure that the work carried out by the private contractor will not be an excuse to draw parish council money for work other than for the relief of the unemployed. Can he give us an assurance that there is no intention of making this a task scheme, and is it his intention to allow this scheme to go into com mercial enterprises which might be run in connection with public authorities? These are pertinent points which I raise. I take the guarantees as they are with considerable relief, but I should be very glad if they were strengthened. We on these benches want to make sure that money given for definite purposes are not used for purposes alien to the principles for which it was raised. Money is raised for health insurance purposes and for nothing else but that. This money was to be used for the relief of unemployment, and I would like to know what instructions are given to the parish councils.

I thought I was handling the matter with commendable fairness and that I was keeping to the point. I think the Secretary of Scot-land thought I was raising points well worth an answer.

Now the hon. Member is getting objectionable. I can be objectionable, too. I have never been objectionable to the Secretary for Scotland because of the difference in age. I ask sincerely these questions to satisfy people I am to some extent speaking for—the Labour members of the parish councils of the West of Scotland.

Let me say at once that points have been raised which are of some importance. I have been asked, in the first place, what kind of protection there will be that parish councils will not be paying over money under this arrangement which would be improperly used? I myself see no real danger in the machinery which at present exists. If a man goes for poor relief and gets employment, obviously, the parish council have already arrangements to deal with that case. But as I understand it—

My point is, that if a man is working and receives unemployment relief, he is liable to criminal prosecution if there is no report that he has started work.

This will be a matter of arrangement. In unemployment schemes at the present time you have people working under similar conditions. Arrangements are made whereby schemes will be arranged by local authorities on terms suitable to them. We will take every care when they enter into these arrangements that they shall be protected. The second point was as to this scheme being used as test work, I cannot conceive that there is any greater measure of test in work carried out by a contractor than there would be in the case of direct labour. If it is a test in the case of one, it is a test in the case of the other. Up to now we have not heard that it is found to be—at least in the existing settlement—and I cannot think there will be any greater opportunity. As regards the arrangement of enterprises which these public authorities enter into, they are the arrangements which exist to-day. We make no alteration in that. Any power the local authority has to-day of entering into schemes of utility and public use we have not changed, and the circumstances under which these things are conducted are unchanged.

A small group of Scottish Members have brought a Clause of this Bill to the close attention of the House. The Scottish group are a small group comparatively, and I feel, therefore, that in a House where there is a tradition for caring for the best interest of the people of this country, there must be many Members representing English constituencies who will feel that if we allow these agencies of the "slave gang" to be introduced then it will be fairly obvious that they will be tried on areas such as the necessitous areas in this country, where we have very large numbers of men who might be subject to these principles. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I should like to ask the Minister responsible if—

On a point of Order. Certain arrangements were made, very informally I admit, with reference to the procedure of this evening, and so far we have kept them very honourably. I want to say that if there is going to be any harrassing of any speaker on this side, then everything we have arranged goes by the board.

As I understood that an arrangement had been come to that a vote should be taken at two o'clock on the other issue, I refrained from speaking. Since then I have sat here through the whole of the Debate, and I think I now have the right, without opposition which has not been called for from the other side, to put certain questions to the Minister and get a reply from him. I do not intend to detain the House longer than is necessary to put my point of view. I want to know what is going to happen to the men who at present are working for public authorities and contractors who are either going to be displaced in order that the people who at present are doing the work may get men on whose services there will be a subsidy, or, on the other hand, a company which is the most efficient company, an employer who has been keeping the largest number of men at work before this new scheme came into force. That employer is going to be penalised at the expense of the ratepayers, and very possibly at the expense of his own firm, which may be a very large one. It also seems to me a very reprehensible principle that it should be suggested that public money should be given through unemployed men to private employers without any guarantee of any kind that the private employers employing these men will not be making extra profits out of the transaction. If it were suggested that so much should be paid towards the wages of these men on condition that the contractors made no more profit out of the job than they did before, then there might be something to be said for this proposition, but in view of the experience we have had of private employers in the past, and especially since the War, we cannot be expected to accept undiluted the doctrine which the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) gave us a little while ago. Well, the hon. Member for Moseley has had an extremely varied career. He is now telling the tale that may suit the people he represents, but not so very long ago, when I was first discharged from the Army, I was connected with an ex-Service men's organisation of which the hon. Member for Moseley was then acting as secretary. I was a member of the general committee of that organisation, and I know we were continually receiving—and he was continually receiving—resolutions of protest and letters of complaint, tragic instances from all over the country of the way that the gentlemen whom the Member for Moseley now represents were treating the men whom he represented in those days. It is very convenient to have a memory so facile that you can forget these things at a moment's notice. All through the last three years, when we have been discussing in this House matters concerning the British workers, Member after Member has been rising on the other side with a smug and sanctified air of superiority—

I do not think that is a remark which should be allowed to be made from any quarter. The hon. Member will please withdraw.

Certainly; I am very sorry, and I will withdraw it at once. Perhaps in my attempt to alliterate I said things I should not have said. They have been rising with an air of superiority, and they have been pointing out to us the generous schemes of social reform for the English workers. And now they come forward in the small hours of the morning, probably in the hope that very sinister Clauses of this sort which have been introduced into an otherwise per-

fectly innocent Bill would pass the attention of the House. We owe a debt to the Scottish Members for bringing this forward. They have benefited British constituencies as much as their own, and I shall certainly support them.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 52.

Division No. 112.]

AYES.

[4.0 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Grotrian, H. Brent

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Hammersley, S. S.

Oakley, T.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pennefather, Sir John

Balniel, Lord

Harland, A.

Perring, William George

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Hartington, Marquess of

Radford, E. A.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Haslam, Henry C.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Blundell, F. N.

Hawke, John Anthony

Rye, F. G.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Salmon, Major I.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Briscoe, Richard George

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Burman, J. B.

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Shepperson, E. W.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hilton, Cecil

Skelton, A. N.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Chapman, Sir S.

Homan, C. W. J.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Christie, J. A.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Cooper, A. Duff

Huntingfield, Lord

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Couper, J. B.

Jacob, A. E.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Templeton, W. P.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lamb, J. Q.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Dixey, A. C.

Loder, J. de V.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Watts, Dr. T.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lumley, L. R.

Wells, S. R.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Fenby, T. D.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Fielden, E. B.

Macintyre, Ian

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Ford, P. J.

McLean, Major A.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Forestier-Walker, L.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Womersley, W. J.

Fremantle. Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Margesson, Capt. D.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Meyer, Sir Frank

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Moreing, Captain A. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Goff, Sir Park

Nelson, Sir Frank

Major Cope and Lord Stanley.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

NOES.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Gillett, George M.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Batey, Joseph

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Buchanan, G.

Grundy, T. W.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Clowes, S.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Kelly, W. T.

Cluse, W. S.

Hardle, George D.

Kennedy, T.

Compton, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Kirkwood, D.

Cove, W. G.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Lansbury, George

Dalton, Hugh

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Lawson, John James

Day, Colonel Harry

Hirst, G. H.

Lunn, William

Gibbins, Joseph

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Mackinder, W.

March, S.

Stephen, Campbell

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Maxton, James

Sutton, J. E.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Saklatvala, Shapurji-

Thurtie, E.

Windsor, Walter

Scrymgeour, E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Wright, W.

Scurr, John

Welsh, J. C.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Westwood, J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Warne.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, at the end to insert the words ton, Linlithgow, and the little townships through which the road passes, who came to ensure that that road which passes through their locality would afford work for the unemployed of their localities. We find that the contractor—and we cannot have it otherwise, for he does not go into the business as a philanthropist—employs labour to make a profit out of the job he is running. He is not running it for the benefit of the British Empire. If it benefits British labour, that is only an incident in the process.

Just in the same way the miner is employed to bring coal out of the bowels of the earth, not that we require it to keep ourselves warm, but in order that those who control the mines may make a profit out of it. They would produce the coal and supposing it were for destruction, just as the engineer produces munitions of war, for the principle behind your whole system is to make profit, and if he is not to make a profit there is no contractor in Christendom who will take the job on. In passing, I wish to enter my most emphatic protest as a Socialist, and as a member of the working class, against this work being handed out in this fashion, because the men in the different localities would be employed. It is all very well for the Secretary for Scotland to hope and wish that this would be carried out in this fashion. You know from practical experience that when you are dealing with employers of labour you are dealing with the most unscrupulous, bare-faced robbers—

There is nothing I can call upon the hon. Member to withdraw. He is not addressing his fellow-Members in those terms.

We hear there has been an arrangement. May hon. Members on this side know what is the arrangement?

There is nothing of which I am aware, except that I indicated to certain hon. Members that they ought to bring the Debate to a close at a certain time.

The arrangement with the Whips of the party opposite has been most flagrantly broken. Perhaps for the benefit of some hon. Gentlemen opposite, I may recall that the arrangement come to with their chief Whip was read out on the Floor of the House, and not dissented from.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is in order for the speech of the hon. Member to be interrupted for another hon. Member to make a statement outside of, and irrelevant to, the subject under discussion?

The hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) was in possession of the House. I was asked a question on a point of Order, and I thought it courteous to answer that question. There was certainly nothing in the nature of an arrangement in the ordinary Parliamentary sense of the term. I told the House exactly what occurred. I indicated to certain hon. Members what I thought was reasonable, and that if that were not accepted, I would be obliged to use my power under the Standing Order. Hon. Members were good enough to say they would not exceed what I had suggested.

I cannot allow myself to be cross-examined by hon. Members. I must use my own discretion.

I suggest that the hon. Member should now come to, and deal with the merits of the Amendment.

It was not my fault I was put down when I was quite in order. You have to remember that. The Amendment I am speaking to is to safeguard the unemployed against the contractor using relief work in order that he may make a profit out of them. It means that private enterprise is not going to allow us to carry out even work to relieve unemployment unless we are prepared to pay toll to private enterprise. That is simply what it means. Before this Bill was introduced the idea was that the labour that was employed on these schemes was not what we designate by the term of direct labour. That meant that the local authorities engaged the men and the local authorities bought the tools with which we were required to carry through the work. In Glasgow we had a works department, and I can remember perfectly well that it was decided in the Glasgow Corporation by our opponents, who are in a majority on the Glasgow Town Council just as they are in a majority in this House, and they doled out the same treatment even in the Glasgow Town Council as the majority are dealing out to us here this morning.

The House has just decided to retain the words giving permission for this work to be done through contractors. The hon. Member is now proposing to make an addition. We cannot go back on what the House has already decided.

One can hardly discuss the second without some reference to the first. The second is only necessary because the House passed the first.

Hon. Members must not go back, and argue a question already decided by the House.

This Amendment is to safeguard the unemployed. The whole idea of this relief to unemployment is to give the man work. How are our opponents—I am quite right in calling them our opponents—

The hon. Member must not use an expression of that kind. He would not like it to be addressed to himself, and I must ask him to withdraw.

I withdraw, Mr. Speaker. You see how they are behaving themselves. They are making it very difficult. This is a very serious matter so far as the unemployed are concerned when the contractor, who has got this work to do, will not employ the men. We received deputations from different parts of the country through which the arterial road had to pass from Glasgow to Edinburgh. The Government, in the first instance, agreed to contribute a certain amount of money—they agreed to contribute 50 per cent. of the amount and eventually we got them to agree to 75 per cent. It worked out this way: that the contractor did not employ the men for whom the work was intended. I know perfectly well that the Die-hard Tories would be keeping them digging holes and filling them up again. The road scheme is just in keeping with that, because it would not matter for the next 10 years supposing these roads were not made. These roads did not produce any food, clothes or shelter, yet in the making of these roads under these relief schemes the unemployed got all these things. That is the idea of these relief works. But when you see these roads, as I have done—I have been to see the men at work and that is something that hon. Members know absolutely nothing about—you see not the unemployed but the employed I see big powerful navvies. I pointed this out to the Secretary for Scotland in Scottish Grand Committee. I told him that we were not by these relief schemes helping the unemployed.

It is being used by these contractors in order to make money out of the business. They do not care. If you have any heart, if you have any sympathy with the unemployed, why do you not instruct the contractor that he is not to be allowed to use steam navvies on these jobs? This Amendment is put forward in order if it is possible, to find some means of cribbing and checking and counteracting the voracious appetite of these contractors to make profit out of poor broken humanity who at the moment happen to be unemployed. I am appealing to the Secretary for Scotland, the Under-Secretary and the Lord Advocate, on behalf of the unemployed of Scotland, that these schemes be confined to the unemployed. That is what they were meant for. You would think that we were absolutely a nation of goats. Here you are supposed to have the intelligence of Britain; you are supposed to be men who are able to stand a strain, and yet when you happen to be a few hours out of your beds—

I have asked the hon. Member twice to keep strictly to the terms of the Amendment, and I hope he will do that. I do not want to call upon him to resume his seat.

I will keep strictly to the terms of the Amendment. I have read out the Amendment, and I have done my best to try to put the point of view of the men who are actually affected. I know what it is to be unemployed. I know the sentiments of the unemployed man. I know what it is to go to look for a job. I know what it is to fight my way right from the lowest rung up to where I am now, and I am trying to give the Secretary for Scotland the benefit of my personal experience, and also to give this House an idea of what the people that these schemes are supposed to benefit are thinking, and what they would like done. That is why we have put forward this Amendment, in order to safeguard them against contractors taking advantage of the conditions that the unemployed are in at the present time. I move the Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I am afraid that I cannot make myself believe that it is possible to wax enthusiastic in the way that my hon. Friend has done with regard to this particular Amendment. As I understand it, it simply asks the Secretary for Scotland that the local authorities undertaking the work should have the right to utilise the unemployed workers in their particular area before any others can be imported to do the work required to be done. I think that is a very simple request to make, and one that we are entitled to ask should be agreed to, because we have had evidence on many occasions where contractors have had men coming from every part of the country and by one method and another they are allowed to obtain work in an area where unemployment is very severe. Our idea is to use all the labour in the area of the authority that is prepared to execute work of this kind. I want to say further, that I am surprised at my colleagues on this side expecting the Secretary for Scotland to act in any other way than what he is doing and has done. If it is the case, as he stated, that he has had messages and information from public authorities in Scotland demanding this alteration in the Act, then we can well understand on this side of the House that, after all, he is only doing what he is told. This is a fight between private enterprise and communal effort, and you may disguise it as much as you like. It is the big fight everywhere, in every public authority in the country and in the House of Commons, and it will continue until we educate the people outside and the men inside the House to the necessity for a big change.

I have endeavoured to familiarise myself with the terms of this Amendment and I have listened with great care to the speech of the hon. Member who moved it, and that of the hon. Member who seconded it. As I understand the terms of this Amendment, in my judgment it goes far beyond the scope of the present Bill, because it will apply, not only to the case which I think must have been in the minds of those hon. Members who framed it, but also to a local authority that had entered into some scheme of public utility for the relief of the distressed unemployed in which the parish council had no part whatever. In so far as that is concerned, this Amendment goes far outside the scope of this Measure.

In the second place, a good deal has been made of the question as to the utility and the use of people in the localities. This Bill is to empower the parish council to come to an arrangement with any local authority and obviously in practice it will be with a local authority in its neighbourhood. But when you come to ask that this Amendment shall also include any scheme under the control of the local authority working through a contractor employing any unemployed men in that immediate district, that is, in my judgment, absurd and not a practical proposition. If you did that, in the first place I do not think it could be carried out, and, in the second place, you would preclude the employment of the real skilled men, the key men of the industry, the men who were essential for carrying on this particular scheme. In my judgment this Amendment is not going to be of assistance, but it would be a menace and impracticable under those conditions. I regret I cannot accept the Amendment.

I should like to describe this Amendment as a hollow sham. I have had considerable experience as Chairman of the General Purposes Committee of the City of Leeds and it is not possible to carry out this plan. We are not exploiting men by way of contractors. We do the work by direct labour and there is no desire on the part of the City Council of Leeds or of any other local authority to exploit the men in any way. All this is a hollow sham.

I have taken part in the employment of many thousands of unemployed men during the last 25 years, and this Amendment is one that I venture to say every local authority which deals with unemployed people always insists upon with their contractors. What the hon. Member who has just spoken and the Secretary for Scotland have put up is really absurd. Like English law, you read the Amendment with a certain amount of common sense, and this is to provide against a very real danger when you are dealing with unemployed men. I should have thought that many people in the House at the present moment would understand that when big jobs are started, especially on ground work, men are accustomed to go all over the country to these jobs, and the reason a provision like this is put in by authorities dealing with unemployed is to prevent an influx of men of that character. The London County Council would not dream of giving a contract or of setting on foot any works to absorb the unemployed without having this Regulation in, and that is the biggest town authority in this country. Neither would any of the borough councils. I do not like the principle of local work for local men in the ordinary sense. We have to fight this out with our own people in the East End of London. This provision is absolutely necessary for London. I really think that the Secretary for Scotland has not given this Amendment all the attention that he should have done. It may be. I am not sure whether this Bill has been to another place or not, but usually if the words that a private Member suggests are really, to all intents and purposes, words which convey the right meaning but which locally do not convey all that they should, the Minister generally says I will consider it, and we will put in words which will safeguard a position of this kind. If the Secretary for Scotland really wished to meet his friends from Scotland, he could amend these words so as to make them convey what I cannot help feeling even the hon. Member for Leeds would agree with. If the hon. Member will make inquiries when he goes home at the week-end, he will find that this provision is in force in Leeds as it is in London. I ask the Secretary for Scotland to give the matter a little more consideration.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment. I realised when I was putting my name to it that there were certain difficulties in its operation, but not half so many difficulties connected with the operation as there are in the operation of the Clause which has been inserted in the Bill. The Secretary for Scotland wiped away all the difficulties of controlling the money handed over to another authority and to the contractor. This is a somewhat minor issue. I can assure hon. Members below the Gangway that there is no difficulty in the West of Scotland in finding key men. We will find all the skilled men right in the district, because serious unemployment in Scotland is right in the middle belt, except for the special distress in some parts of the Western Isles. Any good man you can need you can find walking about in that area of unemployment. The contractors will not dream of going outside that area for skilled engineers or workmen. If I may refer to Sir R. McAlpine, he will not go outside for good men; he will go out for big, strong countrymen as harvesters; there will be an import of a big proportion of Irish labourers. There has always been a tendency for a certain proportion of these people to be imported for a seasonal job. They are cheap labour.

They are used under bestial conditions, and they are fed under bestial conditions.

I plead guilty to enjoying a joke as well as anybody, but I do not stay out of my bed for fun. The nature of my sense of humour is evolved along somewhat different lines. I am here simply because I think that there are important issues. We are conceiving the possible influx of large numbers of unskilled labourers imported into a particular district, who have come to remain in that district and become the permanently unskilled men who come first on unemployment benefit when a grave crisis comes along. It shows how far we are travelling from the original intention of the Scottish Poor Law when the Scottish parish was not entitled to pay ordinary Poor Law relief to persons who had long residence; and when huge sums had to be spent by the Glasgow parishes to trace such people back to their parishes of origin.

And what was regarded as a necessary safeguard that had to be put into operation before a few shillings could be given to an old widow of 65 was departed from altogether. You depart from the old principle of the parish of domicile, and now you throw residence overboard. You are prepared to spend funds raised by people in the poorest districts in promoting schemes on which people may be employed from any part of this country, or any other. One hon. Member mentioned that in Scotland we have had imported at various times all nationalities in bulk. We had Poles, all sorts of Russians, and Spaniards.

I am surprised that the civic head of a town which shuts out even motor omnibuses from coming over its boundaries should be doing his very best to prevent us from trying to safeguard our interests in our own community.

It is all right when it is across the border. It is in Leeds that safeguards are wanted. I do not agree with the suggestion that this Amendment does not meet the object we are after. I think this Amendment covers the problem very adequately. It is possible there is something wrong with the drafting. None of us whose names are on the Bill claim to be masters in the art of drafting. You might give us the promise that you will consider whether some form of words can be introduced to cover the point we make.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 52; Noes, 145.

Division No. 113.]

AYES.

[5.0 a.m.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Scurr, John

Batey, Joseph

Hirst, G. H.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Buchanan, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rothehirthe)

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Stephen, Campbell

Compton, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Sutton, J. E.

Cove, W. G.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Thurtle, E.

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kennedy, T.

Welsh, J. C.

Fenby, T. D.

Kirkwood, D.

Westwood, J.

Gibbins, Joseph

Lansbury, George

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gillett, George M.

Lawson, John James

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lunn, William

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mackinder, W.

Windsor, Walter

Grundy, T. W.

March, S.

Wright, W.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Maxton, James

Hardie, George D.

Saklatvala, Shapurji

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hayes, John Henry

Scrymgeour, E.

Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Warne.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Dawson, Sir Philip

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Dixey, A. C.

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Balniel, Lord

Everard, W. Lindsay

Hilton, Cecil

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Fielden, E. B.

Homan, C. W. J.

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Ford, P. J.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Blundell, F. N.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Huntingfield, Lord

Briscoe, Richard George

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Jacob, A. E.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Brooke, Briqadier-General C. R. I.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

King, Capt. Henry Douglas

Brown. Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Goff, Sir Park

Lamb, J. Q.

Burman, J. B.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Loder, J. de V.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Looker, Herbert William

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Chapman, Sir S.

Harland, A.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Christie, J. A.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Lumley, L. R.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hartington, Marquess of

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Cooper, A. Duff

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Cope. Major William

Haslam, Henry C.

MacIntyre, Ian

Couper, J. B.

Hawke, John Anthony

McLean, Major A.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Margesson, Capt. D.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Shaw, R. G. Yorks, W. B., Sowerby)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Watts, Dr. T.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Shepperson, E. W.

Wells, S. R.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Skelton, A. N.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Oakley, T.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Pennefather, Sir John

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Perring, William George

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Womersley, W. J.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Radford, E. A.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Rye, F. G.

Templeton, W. P.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Salmon, Major I.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Captain Hacking and Mr. Frederick Thomson.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words, "upon this day six months."

I think the night has been very well spent. The coming rays of another day will put us in a better mood. But I am surprised at the Scottish Members on the opposite benches, and especially at the silence of those on the Government Benches, who come from the City of Glasgow. If there is any evidence of absolute failure to grasp the situation, it has been demonstrated to-night by refusing to accept these Amendments. The first one asked that 1927 should be displaced by 1930. Not one of the speakers on the Government Bench has given the slightest indication that they have any organised plan that is going to wipe out any need for this Bill by 1927. What they seem to forget is the permanently unemployed man. Take the City of Glasgow. Let me give an illustration. In Barr and Strouds, the scientific instrument makers, from 1916 to 1919 there was a certain operation that took eight hours to perform. To-day, by machines, that operation is being performed in half-an-hour. You must get it out of your heads, if it happens to be there, that trade is something that gives a fluctuation to unemployment. What we are dealing with is the unemployed man under the capitalist system who will remain there until we destroy the system. In my own constituency, an engineering centre, we have the young men; one-half of the number unemployed have only had a quarter of the training to make them journeymen, and the other half have got the whole training but can find no work. That is the tragedy that the Government have not faced. The question that has got to be faced is not an addition or an extension of another two years, but you have got to make provision for the permanent unemployed. It calls for permanent provision and not extension for one or two or three years, because you are going to have the unemployed from two ends. You are going to have it from the youth and from the aged men. Men who are sincere in their hearts upon the subject do not trifle with the life and death of the industrial worker as you are doing to-night. Last week in the Springburn Exchange we paid relief to 4,120 and out of that you have these tragedies that I am speaking of. Apart from not wanting to deal with the subject in a scientific way, you are trying now as a Government to take away the rights that were in the original provision. The money that was being voted by Parliament was for the relief of unemployment, and the work that was undertaken was a mere incident. Roads have been made between certain places that would not have been made in normal times, but they were made an incident for the expenditure of the money in order to take men from idleness into some form of work. If we had been out to make roads, the roads not being an incident, we would have applied all the latest scientific machinery to get them done quickly. But the money was not voted to any public body to make roads; it was voted for the relief of unemployment, and every penny of that money that finds its way in the form of profit into the contractors' pockets is robbing the unemployed man. The contractor has not the same interest in the unemployed man as has the local body.

The foreman of the private contractor knows that he must make a certain touch so far as profits are concerned if he is going to keep his job, and if he wants to keep his job he has got to take on the strongest men, whereas, with the local body's engineer taking over the men, he is instructed that the money being spent is to relieve the unemployed. That engineer is released from the profit-mongering practice of putting a lining upon his heart and saying he cannot be allowed to think with his heart. [HON. MEMBERS: "His heart? Now you have done it!"] No, I have not. The most ancient people tell us it is the heart that thinks, and my appeal to you now is that the heart might think with better feelings towards the unemployed. When this unemployed man comes along for a job and has been out of work 18 months or two years, and is not being fed on that kind of food required to build him up and give him the necessary energy, and when he is handed a crowbar in order to loosen sets in the street—it is all very well for hon. Gentlemen to laugh. But I would like to see the cut you would make with a crowbar in your hands. You are more acquainted with the knife and fork, and something else. You get a type of busybody going about—I see very many of them here—always going around looking for something to say against what is called the working class. I have had complaints as a Member of this House from busybodies who happen to pass by in their morning walks where some unemployed men were being started on a job of work. One reverend gentleman wrote to me and said that in my own constituency he saw a man leaning upon his pick-axe and not working. That is the kind of thing we get from people who never did any work themselves. You get a man, underfed, unfit to use a pick-axe or a crowbar, and, on the other hand, you get the well-fed knock-about busybody complaining. That is the spirit of opposition that comes to the unemployed man from the type that is always trying to generate the idea that a man is unemployed because he does not want to work. That is the general insinuation from everyone on those benches opposite.

In dealing with the money part we have to deal with the general position. Everyone of these schemes which is put up has to be fed with money. We are pleading for something tangible to be done for these men claiming that all the money voted by this Government shall go to the relief of these men and not to the contractors. Because we do that you have men laughing and sneering. When you get this type of sneering laugh you get the type of mind that is incapable of sympathy with the suffering unemployed.

Am I entitled to point out that we do not sneer at the unemployed, but we cannot help laughing at the ridiculous presentment of the case by the hon. Member?

I have asked the hon. Member once, and I ask him again to keep strictly to the point.

In moving the rejection of the Bill, I will say this in conclusion. If the Government had been sincere in dealing with this question of unemployment, they would not have sought to place any restrictions. This new development seems to be to crush them out of the Labour Exchanges and to try to put them on parochial authorities. The Bill ought not to be passed.

I beg to second the Amendment.

Every attempt has been made from these benches to move Amendments of a constructive character. There has not been a single Amendment moved from these benches of a destructive character. We have discussed, prior to getting to this Third Beading, the extension of the date, provisions, so far as the parish councils were concerned, for helping on schemes for unemployment, and our very last proposal was that there should be provision made that wherever payments were being made by local authorities, the unemployed in those particular districts should be employed first before they went outside to take part in the work of schemes of relief. The Bill is only tinkering with the unemployed problem. This is going to continue a very heavy burden upon the shoulders of the parish councils throughout the length and breadth of Scotland, particularly in the districts where there is a big number of unem- ployed. The able-bodied unemployed were to be in the position of getting relief from the parish council. Every able-bodied unemployed who has been put off the unemployment insurance register, every one of the young men who is unable to get work will become a burden under this Act to the local authorities and the parish councils, increasing the rates. Every one of these unemployed ought to be a burden upon the State until such time when, by the combined thought and action of all parties in this House we are able to conceive some method whereby any man willing to work shall be employed, and no man shall live unless he gives useful service to the community. If the last proposal were given effect to, there would be many by-elections. I hope the House will reject the Bill with its conditions and liabilities upon the local authorities that ought to be borne by the nation.

I am sorry we on these benches are not able to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on this Bill, or on the way the Government have received suggestions from this side of the House. We are all anxious to make as adequate provision as possible for dealing with these unemployed people. I am willing to grant to hon. Members opposite that they are anxious to see these unemployed people finding employment, and to the Secretary for Scotland that in making the alteration in the Bill he has had in view the more adequate provision of work. But I do not think that he has been at all justified in making the subsidy to the private contractors. There have been various difficulties pointed out in connection with its working out, and I am inclined to think that when the local authorities and the parish councils are going to try to work out what is evidently in the mind of the Government, these difficulties will be found to be insuperable. A contract is going to be let out at a certain price. Then when certain men have been sent by the parish councils to be employed by the contractor it will be found by the contractor that they are unsuitable, or that they do not get on with the work quickly enough. These men will be dismissed, and it will be quite impossible to fix the contribution of the parish council with regard to the number of men employed. I am sorry that the Minister did not on the last Amendment offer us any suggestion that he would consider the incorporation of a Clause in another place in order to meet the difficulty we put before him with regard to the influx of unemployed from other parts of the country. I would also take this opportunity of complaining about the way in which the Government are dealing with this whole question, not only so far as Scotland is concerned but so far as the whole country is concerned. A tremendous burden has been placed upon the local community again and again. The Government has refused to face its national responsibility in connection with this question of unemployment in spite of the promises made by hon. Members representing the areas in which there has been the greatest amount of unemployment.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member strictly in order on a Scottish Bill in raising great questions of general policy?

I meant that the Scottish questions were so great that other questions cannot be added to them without becoming rather overburdensome to this House.

I should have thought the hon. Member's lesson at a previous election would have prevented him from trying to make his point of Order. I would say with regard to this matter that it is very unfortunate that we have not had a more adequate treatment of unemployment in connection with this Measure. The Government with its big majority seems quite incapable of providing anything effective, and I am confident that as a result of the passing of this Measure very little credit will accrue to the Secretary for Scotland and the Government. I would suggest that we should allow the Bill to go through without a division. If the Bill will help in any little way—and it will only be in a little way—I would be unwilling to do anything which would prevent that little benefit coming to these people.

I want to raise my protest against the method of the Secre- tary for Scotland and his whole handling of this Bill. It may be a matter for laughter, or it may not, but the Secretary for Scotland must admit that some of us have taken an active part in connection with parish council affairs. I want to raise the very serious problem that the Secretary for Scotland is throwing on the parish councils. This Bill proposes to continue the Act for two years, and I wonder if the Secretary for Scotland is aware of the terrible problems facing the local parish councils. Everyone of these councils is already overburdened with debt.

Take the Parish Council of Govan, the Parish Council of Glasgow or any of the Lanarkshire parishes where you have a comparatively small population. These people cannot now meet their obligations, and it is not good enough for the Secretary for Scotland, who is responsible for maintaining law and order in Scotland, to come here requesting these parish councils to carry on their shoulders the burden of able-bodied relief unless he is prepared to say what kind of assistance he will grant to them. When this Act first came before us there was an explicit understanding that parish councils would be assisted from the Exchequer. The Secretary for Scotland was then holding a responsible post in the Coalition Government. I have been through the records of the Government that passed this Act through its first stage and find a definite assurance that the Scottish authorities would receive assistance. Consequently they had been buoyed up with that hope. The Secretary for Scotland is not dealing fairly with the parish councils although he has this huge majority behind him. Because someone else had broken a pledge that is no reason why he should do so. I make every effort to carry out my pledges to my constituents and sometimes even against my own party. To-day Govan Parish Council is in debt to the extent of £7,000, and the figure is increasing. What is being done to help these parish councils? The Secretary for Scotland has taken no steps to meet the just claims we have made. I want to say that I am disappointed with him. We have always been able to get concessions from opponents. I pride myself that in Glasgow and even in the Scottish Office when the Under-Secretary for Scot- land was practically acting as Secretary for Scotland, Lord Advocate, Solicitor-General and General Whip combined in the last Tory Government of 1923, it was quite a common thing for the Undersecretary for Scotland to give us concession after concession and in a friendly and courteous fashion. In the Glasgow Town Council our opponents gave us concessions. The present Secretary for Scotland, he regretted to say, was one of the most reactionary they had had for years, and to-night he has added to that record. We must have him replaced at the earliest possible moment with someone with a semblance of democracy.

I rise to suggest to my hon. Friends that the discussion be closed, and that we allow the Government to get the Third Reading. I protest against the statement made, that in claiming their right to discuss this very important Measure to-night that an agreement has been broken with the other side of the House. The agreement was—I have seen it—that the Government was to get these four Orders in the present sitting, and that there should not be prolonged debate. It is for the purpose of preventing a longer Debate and keeping to the agreement in the spirit as well as in the letter that I appeal to my hon. Friends now that they have made their protest, and one which I think was justified, first of all, against the Government for having compelled the House, with all the power they have, in laying down these Regulations, to discuss a Measure of first-class importance to Scotland in the early hours of the morning. I hope the experience we have had to-night will teach those in charge of the business of the House that the Members who represent Scotland can be relied on, when necessary, to tackle the business which affects them. Having entered our protest, having tried to amend the Bill, in view of the fact that the rejection of the Bill would inflict hardship on an unfortunate section of our constituents, I appeal to my friends to allow the Third Reading to be taken without a Division.

The right hon. Gentleman has ended up the Debate in thoroughly characteristic fashion. I have not risen to continue the Debate on this Bill, because I do not understand a word about it, after having listened to Socialist Members. I wish to say one word about what the right hon. Gentleman said about the bargain. I will read, with your permission, Sir, an extract from the OFFICIAL REPORT of last Monday of what the Prime Minister said. The Prime Minister said this:

"It was felt that it might meet the general desire of the House to give a little longer for the discussion of the Insurance Bill instead of bringing the Second Reading to a close at a quarter-past eight on Tuesday, and after consultation with the different parties in the House we have decided to bring the Second Reading to a conclusion at eleven on Tuesday night, and then on Wednesday to take the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution for the Insurance Bill and to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule for the first three Orders originally announced for Wednesday"—

namely, the two Money Orders that we have taken and the Bill which we are now discussing—

"without prolonged Debate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May, 1925; col. 47, Vol. 184.]

Everybody can judge for themselves what prolonged Debate there has been. Personally I feel and I hope hon. Gentlemen on this side feel with me, that these hours we have spent to-night have been well worth it as showing the country how the Socialists keep their bargains.

I was only going to say that we ought at least to congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken.

We ought to congratulate him on the fact that he has been for a few minutes rather a popular character in the House. I should like to say that there is no agreement there, and I want further to state, speaking as a Scottish Member, that the Government need not make up their minds at any time to enter into any agreement. I do not think it is reasonable or fair that a Government should attempt even to come to an agreement with anybody that would deprive the Scottish Members of their right to consider any Bill affecting the interests of Scotland. I want to state here—and with this I finish—that we had made an arrangement which we are willing to keep, and if it is broken it will not be our fault, and I am telling the House and the Chief Whip of the Government that we need not enter into any arrangement that is going to bind Scottish Members to start their business at 12 o'clock at night. We are not going to have it. That is all there is about it, and if you are going to enter into agreements that we start our business at 12 o'clock, then we are going to go on as long as we think fit.

Mr. LANSBURY rose—

rose in his place, and claimed to move, " That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld hit assent, and declined then to put that Question.

We, on this side of the House, have done everything we possibly could do in order to try to——

rose in his place, and claimed to move, " That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question, believing that the Rouse was prepared to come to a decision without that Motion.

A point of Order. The Chief Government Whip has made a certain statement which does not arise on the Third Reading, a statement which reflects on the character and capacity of those on these benches. That statement might be true or untrue. My point of Order is that at least in a Criminal Court those who are attacked have the right to state their side. All I am asking from you, Sir, that in reply to that statement, at least the Members who have been primarily responsible, or one of them, ought to be allowed to make a statement on our behalf. I ask that in common fairness.

The matter was first referred to by the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley). It was not really relevant to the Question before the House, but I thought it right to allow him to make that statement, and, of course, to allow the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury to reply. With these two speeches, I must treat that matter as being entirely closed, and not really relevant to the matter before the House.

On a point of Order. I heard the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, and I heard him give a quotation from the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I cannot permit that matter to be raised further. I have allowed equality between the two sides, and that is all I can do.

We have done our best on this side to try to improve a very badly drafted Bill. We nave been fighting for the helpless, and in view of what we have done, it would serve no purpose to go further in Division. For that reason I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, it being then One minute after Six of the Clock upon Thursday morning.