House of Commons
Tuesday, May 26, 1925
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PRIVATE BILLS [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Southern Railway Bill [ Lords ].
Bill to be read a Second time.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday, 11th June, at a quarter-past Eight of the Clock.
LAND DRAINAGE (OUSE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Land Drainage Acts, 1861 and 1918, amending The Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Confirmation Act, 1920, and the Order thereby confirmed," presented by Mr. EDWARD WOOD; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 186.]
Proletarian Schools
:I beg leave to ask permission to present a petition from the Bath branch of the National Citizens' Union, containing the signature of 3,154 persons, protesting against the teaching in the so-called proletarian schools, and asking for legislative action to protect our children from the pernicious activities of those schools, which are opposed to ethical and religious principles.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Fuel Oil and Motor Spirit (Imports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of gallons of fuel oil and motor spirit brought into this country in 1924, and its cost per gallon?
:The imports of fuel oil into Great Britain and Northern Ireland during 1924 amounted to 385,582,000 gallons, valued at £5,603,600; and of motor spirit to 422,311,000 gallons, valued at £17,846,500. The average declared value of the fuel oil imported was 3·49 pence per gallon, and of the motor spirit imported, 10·14 pence per gallon.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the coal equivalent of the fuel oil imported?
:Naturally, I cannot calculate that offhand in my mind, but if the hon. Gentleman will put a question down, I will have the matter looked into for him.
Bananas
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of bunches of bananas imported into this country for the years 1913, 1923, and 1924, respectively?
:The answer contains some figures, and my hon. and gallant Friend will perhaps agree to its being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
:How many bananas are there to the bunch?
:It all depends on the size of the bunch.
:What is the good of the figures unless we know that?
Following are the figures:
The quantities of bananas imported into the United Kingdom in the years specified were as follow:—
Bunches. 1913 … … … 7,539,984 1923 … … … 11,857,169 1924 … … … 11,307,940
Companies Acts
asked the President of the Board of Trade when he expects the Report of the Committee appointed to consider what amendments are desirable to the Companies Acts, 1908 to 1917, will be published?
:The field of inquiry to be covered by the Committee is very large, and the time has not yet arrived when it will be possible to indicate a date by which they will be in a position to present their Report.
:Can the hon. Gentleman give the House any idea when they are likely to report?
:I cannot say.
Barrow Harbour (Light Dues)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if there is any royalty charged on ships' cargoes passing the Walney Light prior to entering the port of Burrow-in-Furness; if so, what is the amount per ton and to whom paid; and is such royalty, if charged, paid on the tonnage of the vessel in addition to the cargo?
:Under the Fur-ness Railway Act, 1894, light duties are levied on every ship loading and unloading in Barrow Harbour. The rate is 1½d. per ton of the ship's net tonnage, and the money is paid to the Commissioners and Trustees of the Port of Lancaster. The rate is charged on the ship's tonnage and not on the cargo.
:Is not that an embargo on the trade of the port?
:No, Sir. These dues are levied under an old Act of 1894, and I would refer my hon. Friend to that Act.
:Is that also the pre-War figure?
:I understand these to be the dues imposed under the Act of 1894.
Arms and Munitions Exported
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any licences for the export of arms to China have been recently granted or whether any applications for such licences have been received; and, if so, to whom and by whom are the arms in question consigned?
:During the present year nine applications have been received for licences to export arms to China, and they have all been granted. The weapons so licensed were seven revolvers or pistols, and two sporting rifles, for the personal use of the consignees, and two cattle killers for the Shanghai Municipal Authorities. Licences have also been granted in nine cases for the export of ammunition, mostly in small quantities, the only important shipments being destined for the Shanghai volunteers and for the Shanghai police.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the value of armaments exported, if any, from this country to any foreign country in the years 1920, 1921, 1922, and 1923, respectively; the countries to which such exports were made; and the value of such exports to each country, respectively?
:The answer includes some figures, and I propose, if the hon. Member will allow me, to have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The aggregate value of all articles included in the Import and Export List under the general heading of "Arms, Ammunition and Military and Naval Stores," exported from the United King- dom in the years 1920 to 1923 and registered as consigned to foreign countries was as follows:
£ 1920 … … … … 3,145,000 1921 … … … … 1,845,000 1922 … … … … 1,780,000 1923 … … … … 1,573,000
Separate particulars of the value of exports, included in the above totals, to each of 27 countries are shown on page 532 of the Third Volume of the Annual Statement of Trade for 1923, and details of the items making up the several totals are to be found on pages 514–532 of the same volume.
I may add that aircraft and motor vehicles are not included in the totals given above, as those intended for military purposes are not separately recorded.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether permits or licences are now required for the export of arms and munitions from this country; who is responsible for granting such permits or licences; how many have been granted during the present year; and what was the total value of goods covered by such permits or licences?
:Licences are required for the export from this country of all arms and munitions. The licences are issued by the Board of Trade, and during the present year about 4,500 have been granted. It is not practicable to give the total value of the goods covered by these licences, but the total declared value of arms, ammunition and military and naval stores exported from this country during the first four months of the present year was £1,380,547.
:Does not that last figure include the ordinary naval and military stores going to our own garrisons abroad?
:I am very glad that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has put that question. It does, I think, mean that the £1,380,000 contains figures for quite peaceable articles.
:May I further ask the hon. Gentleman if, in regard to the granting of these licences, does the Board of Trade—does he personally, or does the President— inspect all applications for large quantities, and satisfy themselves that everything is above board and bona fide?
:These requests pass through a very small sieve. They are carefully examined, and of that I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend.
British Army
Private John Clark (Pension Application)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the application for pension on behalf of Mrs. Jane Clark, in respect of her son, No. 2,746,741, Private John Clark, the Black Watch, who received fatal injuries whilst playing football, has been refused on the ground that death cannot be regarded as attributable to service; and whether, in view of the decision of the Army Council, as conveyed in War Office letter of 22nd February, 1924, No. 45/Gen. No./2,988 (F. 3), directing that in the case of the Regular Army injuries resulting from any games or other forms of physical recreation definitely organised by or with the approval of the appropriate military authority are regarded as attributable to service for the purpose of non-effective awards, and that this man received injuries in a game organised by an appropriate military authority, effect will be given to the Army Council decision referred to?
:I am advised by the medical authorities that the disease which caused the death of Private Clark on 7th March, 1924, was not attributable to the injury which he received while playing football on the 29th August, 1923. His death cannot be regarded as directly attributable to military service, and, in these circumstances, I regret that his mother is not eligible for the grant of a dependant's pension from Army funds.
:Is football organised by the military authorities, and is it not necessary for the troops in hot climates?
:Games are usually organised by the authorities. If death had occurred during play he would probably have been eligible. But as I am advised, I have given the answer, that death was not attributable to the injury Clark received at football.
:Is it not the case that this man was injured at football, that he was sent home from India as a result of that injury, and that he died on the way home?
:I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the medical authorities always try to do everything they can to bring such deaths within the limits and powers of pension. They have carefully gone into the matter, and they have said that there is no doubt that death was not due to the accident at football.
:Is there any appeal from the first medical board?
:I am afraid I cannot answer that offhand. But I know that this particular case has been before the civil Referee and the civilian doctor, who is only consulted when any such case arises.
:If it is possible, and if the death was due to the authorised game of football, is this not eminently a case—if there be some doubt about it— coming within the category of those getting an ex gratia grant?
:The actual cause of death was disease, which could not possibly have arisen from the accident that occurred to the man.
Anti-Aircraft Gunfire
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the figures indicating that during the War 15 aeroplanes and two airships were destroyed by anti-aircraft gunfire refer exclusively to anti-aircraft work in this country?
:The answer is in the affirmative.
Discharges (Waltham Abbey and Enfield)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can find any employment for the efficient men who have been discharged or are under notice of discharge from the gunpowder factory at Waltham Abbey and the small-arms factory at Enfield; and whether he is aware that the majority of the discharged men have had to apply for parish relief after being in Government employment most of their lives?
:Few men or women have been discharged or are under notice of discharge from the Royal Small-arms Factory and the Royal Gunpowder Factory other than those whose discharge is due to normal reasons, such as age, or discharge at their own request. I regret that there is no alternative work that can be offered to those who are or are about to be discharged from Enfield and Waltham.
:Is it not the case that a number of ex-service men, young men, who are suffering from war disabilities have been discharged recently?
:I have not the actual numbers with me, but I have recently looked into the papers and the details show that, during the last five months very few men indeed have been discharged for any cause whatever. The number discharged for all causes—stoppages of seasonal work, and all other causes—is a total of 31 in the last five months.
:Will the hon. Member allow me to give him some specific information?
:I shall be very pleased to receive anything the hon. and gallant Gentleman may communicate.
:Is it correct to assume that 45 is the age limit at which a man can be engaged as a skilled workman?
:I do not think that arises out of this question.
Ordnance Factories (EmployéS Age Limit)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of withdrawing Rule 1a from the Rules and Regulations governing ordnance factories, which limits the age at which men can be engaged as workmen to 45 years, seeing that craftsmen of this age are of mature skill, experience and reliability, and that they would often be preferred by the officers responsible for the engagement of workmen?
:I do not think there are any sufficient reasons for changing the general practice, which is embodied in this rule. It is not, however, an absolute rule; and the local officials are allowed a discretion, which they exercise in suitable cases, in regard to engaging men over 45 years of age.
:Can the hon. and gallant Member say what liability or disability the State would suffer if they employed men who are over 45 years of age, other than would be suffered by ordinary employers?
:I am afraid that I cannot argue the merits of the case. I have stated the actual rule, and there is that discretionary power.
:Does the hon. and gallant Member suggest that these men over 45 should cultivate the habit of learning to qualify for the dole?
:The hon. Member must not assume that.
Russia
British Trade
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his Department is aware that large quantities of ploughs have been ordered by the Transcaucasian Soviet Republic from Krupp's of Essen; that a consignment of 1,500 has already been shipped to Tiflis; and whether, with a view to obtaining similar orders for the engineering industry in Great Britain, His Majesty's Government will now extend the provisions of the Export Credits Act to British-Russian trade?
:The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, I would refer to my replies to the hon. and gallant Member for Chertsey (Sir P. Richardson) and the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Harrison) on the 12th May.
Gold Sale (Great Britain)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that £900,000 worth of bar gold has been deposited in this country on behalf of the Soviet Government; and has he any information tending to show that the Soviet Government intend to utilise this gold to re-establish the credit of their country, with a view to making trade with Soviet Russia again possible on an ordinary commercial basis?
:I understand that £900,000 worth of gold was sold to the Bank of England by a broker in the ordinary course of business last week. I have no special information as to the source of this gold, nor as to the use to which the proceeds of this sale may be put.
Diplomatic Mail Bags
( for Miss WILKINSON)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any limit as regards the number and weight of diplomatic bags which His Majesty's Government is allowed to send to its representatives in Russia unopened under diplomatic privileges?
:Yes: His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires in Moscow is allowed to send and receive each week one sealed bag weighing not more than 10 kilogrammes, which is not liable to be opened by the Soviet authorities.
:May I ask whether the contents of these diplomatic boxes are ever opened?
Scotland
Transport (Highlands and Islands)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding his inquiries into the possibility of improving the transport services in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland?
:A conference of representatives of the Departments concerned has been set up by my right hon. hon. Friends the Secretary for Scotland and the Postmaster-General to examine and report on questions relating to the Western Highlands and Islands steamer services. The conference is presently engaged in making the necessary inquiries.
:Can my hon. and gallant Friend tell us when this Committee will report, as this matter has been going on for years?
:It has only newly been set up. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] It may be, but it is better late than never, and it has now been set up.
Asylum Patients (Charges on Relatives)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been directed to cases in which certain parish councils have made charges against the relatives of an inmate of a lunatic asylum, although no agreement or contract has been entered into by the relatives for the removal to or maintenance in such asylum; and, in view of the interests of the relatives to such cases, if he will consider the desirability of issuing a circular to parish councils as to their powers and responsibilities in the matter?
:My right hon. Friend's attention has not previously been called to the cases referred to, but if the hon. Member will give particulars he will be glad to have inquiry made. The position generally is that a parish council is empowered by Statute to recover expenditure on a lunatic poor person from any relative legally bound to maintain him. Where the condition of a patient necessitates his removal to any asylum the parish council usually come to an agreement with the relatives regarding his maintenance, but the absence of an agreement would not negative the power of the parish to recover the expenditure.
:Are we to understand from that reply that a parish council has the power to remove any pauper to the asylum and then come down on the rela- tives, who have given no sanction for the removal, for the cost of maintenance in that asylum?
:I am afraid that scarcely arises out of the question.
:That is the question.
:The parish council has the right, of course, to recover from the relatives any expenditure it has legally incurred. The question of whether or not it consigns him to the asylum is not in this question.
:Arising out of that reply, which does not answer the question, has the parish council the power to come upon the relatives of a patient who have not given sanction for his removal to an asylum, for the cost of his maintenance in the asylum. That is the question. Will you answer it?
:I think I have answered the question quite fully. The parish has a right to come upon the relatives. The question of consigning the person to an asylum does not arise out of the question.
:It does arise. That is the point of the question—that it is the case of a patient removed without the consent of the relatives. Has the parish council the right to come on the relatives for the cost of maintaining that patient? That is the question?
:That is the question and the answer, I understand, is "Yes."
:On a point of Order. The Under-Secretary has just said that is not the question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] Well, I will leave it to the OFFICIAL REPORT to show what he has said.
Small Holdings
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether as the Board of Agriculture has 77,188 acres pending allocation to smallholders, he can state the number of applications be has for them; and when the applicants are likely to be placed on the small holdings?
:It is not possible for my right hon. Friend to give statistics in reply to the first part of the question, because applications for small holdings are usually made without reference to the particular properties which may be acquired for land settlement purposes. It is intended that 62 new holdings and 127 enlargements should be formed on the areas referred to, and it is expected that holders will be given entry during the next 12 months to the majority of these holdings and enlargements.
:What is the extent of the area that will be covered by the holdings that are going to be given?
:It will cover the whole of this area in question.
:The 70,000 odd acres?
:The 70,000 acres.
Road Construction (Reef, Lewis)
asked the Secretary for Scotland what is the total estimated cost of the construction of roads in connection with the small holdings at Reef, Lewis, Scotland, in connection with which £820 were offered as a grant-maid; and whether, in view of the difficulties that have arisen locally, he will now be prepared to have the whole road contracted for?
:My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland cannot give a precise estimate of the cost of constructing and repairing the roads in question, but looking to the length of the roads and the nature of the ground which has been inspected, he is satisfied that the grant offered is a substantial and adequate contribution towards the cost of the roads which are wholly for the holders' benefit. In reply to the last part of the question, I would refer to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the question put by the hon. Member on the 12th of May.
:Are we to take it from that reply that the Scottish Office declines to give more than £820 for the construction of this road, and that the smallholders have to accept this £820 for tools and wages in constructing the road.
:No. The Scottish Office is a little surprised at the insistence of my hon. Friend in having this work put out to contract rather than having it done by direct labour, in view of his recent attitude on the question.
:May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to answer the question, and not go back upon Debates that have arisen in this House? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
:I understand the answer to be clear. The £820 was the extent of the grant. Is not that so?
:That is so.
:That seems to answer the question.
:But arising out of my knowledge of the particular district, surely I have the right to ask as a supplementary question, whether the £820 is expected to cover not only the wages of the smallholders while they are engaged on the road, but also the cost of the tools and the materials with which to construct the road? That, surely, is a legitimate supplementary question?
:Yes.
:Well, I put it before, and I want it answered.
:This is a contribution towards the cost of the road. The cost of the road is the cost of the road as a whole. Surely the position is perfectly clear. This is a grant that is being made from the Board of Agriculture towards the cost of the road.
rose —
:I think that completely answers the question. Will the hon. Member please put down his further question.
:On a point of Order. This is the second time I have been trying to bring this matter before the House. The hon. and gallant Member has stated the cost of the road exclusive of the items which I have mentioned. Is he not aware that these smallholders are being told that this £820—[HON. MEMBERS: ''Order'!"] How many Under-Secretaries for Scotland have we in the House? Is it not the case that these smallholders have been told that out of this £820 they must purchase not only tools to work on the roads but also the materials with which to construct the roads?
:The hon. Member must not argue questions at Question Time.
Glasgow Extension of Boundaries Bill
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the heavy costs and expenses to which all the Scottish local authorities interested in the City of Glasgow Extension of Boundaries Bill are being subjected by the prolonged hearing of evidence at Westminster, he will promote legislation whereby in future such evidence will be taken in Scotland?
:The Measure to which the hon. Member refers is proceeding as a Private Bill, and not as a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, in virtue of a decision of the Lord Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means under Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of that Act to the effect that the provisions of the Measure are of such a nature that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order. Procedure must therefore be by Private Bill involving, in the case of opposition, the hearing of evidence by a Parliamentary Committee. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland does not consider that a case has been established for legislation such as is suggested in the question.
:Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman not think that an expenditure of public money, estimated to run into £70,000, which must impose an exceptional burden upon industry in the Clyde area, could be avoided altogether if some such legislation as I suggest in my question were promoted?
:I understand that a greater part of this expenditure is involved in bringing forward evidence for and against the City of Glasgow, and case against the City of Glasgow would be put wherever this case was tried, whether in Edinburgh or in London.
:I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has missed the point in my question. Is he not aware that there are extraordinary expenses incurred in bringing witnesses and materials to London, which would be avoided if that evidence was heard in Glasgow?
Lapwings (Protection)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that large numbers of lapwings' eggs are collected and disposed of every season for human consumption; that in a very few years there is every prospect of the lapwing becoming extinct; that the lapwing is a valuable friend of the farmer and agriculture; that the farmers of Scotland desire to see the lapwing protected; and if he will take action to make illegal the collection and sale of lapwings' eggs for human consumption?
:The replies to the first and third parts of the question are in the affirmative, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland understands that agricultural opinion in Scotland is generally in favour of the principle of giving this bird adequate protection. On the information before him he does not apprehend that the lapwing is in danger of becoming extinct. Under the existing law the taking of lapwings eggs is prohibited during the whole or part of the year in most of the counties in Scotland in virtue of Orders made by the Secretary for Scotland on the application of the county councils. The measure of protection proposed to be given to the lapwing for the future is set out in the Wild Birds Protection Bill which has recently been introduced and which on its passing will supersede the existing provisions.
:Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the suggestion that no so-called plovers' eggs be sold except those laid by sea birds?
Crofters (Housing)
asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether His Majesty's Government are willing to consider the introduction of an amending Bill to the Housing Act, 1924, in order to bring the Scottish crofter within the provisions of that Act?
:In the present state of Parliamentary business I cannot hold out any hope that legislation will be introduced on this point. I would remind the hon. Member that the existing arrangement under which the crofter receives assistance from the Board of Agriculture for Scotland by way of loans and materials at cheap rates and in addition, the subsidy under the Housing, etc., Act of 1923, is more suitable for him that if he were to receive only the annual sum for a period of years available under the Housing Financial Provisions Act, 1924.
:Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman willing to make the housing conditions of the Scottish crofter easier by bringing him within the provisions of the Housing Act, because such legislation is very much overdue?
:The Secretary for Scotland and the Minister of Health have repeatedly said that the question of rural housing is engaging their attention at the present moment.
District Medical Insurance Officers (Reports)
asked the Undersecretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he will make available for the inspection of Members in the Library copies of the Reports for the year 1924 of the district medical insurance officers under the Scottish Board of Health for the cities of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Dundee?
:The reports in question are of a confidential nature, and it would not be in the public interest to publish their contents in full. A summary of salient features with extracts relating to points of special interest will, however, be embodied in the Board's Annual Report for 1924 which will be made available at the earliest possible date.
Coal Industry
Low-Temperature Carbonisation
asked the Secretary for Mines if he can give the average yield of a ton of coal, of fuel oil, motor spirit, gas, and smokeless fuel when treated by low-temperature carbonisation?
:I am advised by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research that the products obtained by the low-temperature distillation of one ton of coal, when the process is carried out in externally-heated retorts at a temperature of about 600°C, are roughly as follow, though they vary with the different seams of coal and with the type of plant employed:
:What process of distillation is that? Is it the process that was done by the Research Department?
:Yes, that is the result of the experiment at the Fuel Research Station at Greenwich.
Coal Output and Royalties
asked the Secretary for Mines the total number of persons engaged in the mining industry and the total output of coal; and what was the amount paid in mining royalties during the year 1924?
:The number of persons engaged in the coal mining industry was 1,213,600, the output of coal was 267,061,000 tons, and the estimated amount payable in royalties was £6,430,000.
Profits
asked the Secretary for Mines the amounts paid as profits on coal mines for the years 1912 to the present date; and whether the by-product auxiliary operations have been profitable undertakings for the years in question?
:As regards the first part of the question I would refer the hon. Member to the written answer that I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for the Blaydon Division. As regards the second part, no information is available.
Shot-Firing (Safety Appliances)
asked the Secretary for Mines if he has received a resolution from the Monmouth County Council mining classes urging that he should make compulsory the using of a safety appliance for the purpose of shot-firing in mines; and will he, for the purpose of protecting persons engaged in this work, give effect to the resolution?
:I have received this resolution, which refers to appliances for withdrawing the detonator from a charged shothole. I have gone very care- fully into this question and am satisfied that it is not advisable or necessary for safety to make the use of such appliances compulsory.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the terrible death rate every year in this method of shot firing without safety appliances, and that at the Markham Collieries two sets of a safety appliance have been in use since 1919, and now eight sets are in use and there is never any accident?
:I am advised that the interests of safety would not be advanced by making this compulsory. It
Miners' Welfare Fund. Year ended 31st December, 1924. The total contributions received from each Mining District in Great Britain during the year were:— £ s. d. £ s. d. 1. Fife and Clackmannan … … … 36,746 13 3 2. The Lothians … … … 17,610 5 11 3. Lanarkshire … … … 86,659 0 2 4. Ayrshire … … … 19,869 3 4 5. Northumberland … … … 59,935 1 2 6. Durham … … … 159,113 7 2 7. Cumberland … … … 7,870 9 2 8. Lancashire and Cheshire … … … 84,507 11 3 9. North Wales … … … 14,262 3 4 10. South Yorkshire … … … 130,631 0 10 11. West Yorkshire … … … 65,871 10 9 12. … … … Nottingbamshire 58,581 17 9 13. Derbyshire … … … 63,739 0 0 14. South Derbyshire … … … 8,981 3 3 15. North Staffordshire … … … 27,269 5 0 16. Cannock Chase … … … 25,119 16 6 17. South Staffordshire and Worcestershire … … … 6,599 7 10 18. Leicestershire … … … 10,289 1 5 19. Warwickshire … … … 22,071 12 2 20. Shropshire … … … 3,468 6 5 21. Forest of Dean … … … 5,926 2 5 22. Somerset … … … 4,483 17 8 23. Bristol … … … 1,546 8 4 24. South Wales and Monmouthshire … … … 223,975 4 9 25. Kent … … … 1,350 0 5 1,146,477 10 3 In addition, the receipts from Interest on Investments belonging to the Fund amounted to 98,542 3 6 Making the total receipts 1,245,019 13 9
This sum was apportioned as follows:— — District Funds. General Fund. Total. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Contributions … … … … 917,182 0 4 229,295 9 11 1,146,477 10 3 Interest … … … … 70,045 2 10 28,497 0 8 98,542 3 6 … … … … 987,227 3 2 257,792 10 7 1,245,019 13 9
is quite true that they are used in a few cases, but not in very many.
Miners' Welfare Fund
( for Mr. BATEY)asked the Secretary for Mines the amount of money received and paid out of the Miners' Welfare Fund in each mining district of Great Britain for the year 1924; the amount of money retained by the central authority; and to what purpose it has been devoted.
:The answer contains long lists of figures, and I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following are the figures:
The total payments out of the Fund during the year were:—
District Funds. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1. Fife and Clackmannan … … … 26,807 0 0 2. The Lothians … … … 26,300 0 0 3. Lanarkshire … … … 94,687 5 1 4. Ayrshire … … … 19,209 0 0 5. Northumberland … … … 35,178 10 0 6. Durham … … … 68,370 0 0 7. Cumberland … … … 2,106 19 0 8. Lancashire and Cheshire … … … 10,065 8 2 9. North Wales … … … 5,596 2 0 10. South Yorkshire … … … 122,458 10 6 11. West Yorkshire … … … 70,398 0 0 12. Nottinghamshire … … … 43,185 0 6 13. Derbyshire … … … 59,908 0 6 14. South Derbyshire … … … 4,378 7 4 15. North Staffordshire … … … 61,000 0 0 16. Cannock Chase … … … 49,000 0 0 17. South Staffordshire and Worcestershire … … … 5,038 0 0 18. Leicestershire … … … 877 18 9 19. Warwickshire … … … 25,768 2 9 20. Shropshire … … … 1,394 17 5 21. Forest of Dean … … … 1,181 7 8 22. Somerset … … … 3,736 19 6 23. Bristol … … … 400 0 0 24. South Wales and Monmouthshire … … … 218,358 10 0 25. Kent … … … 1,247 0 0 956,650 19 2 General Fund. Research … … … 50,372 13 7 Education … … … 5,932 16 0 Miscellaneous … … … 2,958 1 8 59,263 11 3 £1,015,914 10 5
Capital Invested
( for Mr. BATEY)asked the Secretary for Mines the amount of capital invested in the coal mines of Great Britain in 1913 and 1924; and how much capital has been called up since 1913.
:As my predecessor stated in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil on the 24th March, 1924, the only information on this subject available in the Mines Department is that, on the basis of evidence given on behalf of the Board of Inland Revenue before the Coal Industry Commission, the capital invested in the industry (excluding coke ovens and by-product plant) was estimated at £130,000,000 in 1914, and at £180,000,000, when control ended in 1921.
:Can the hon. and gallant Member say how much new capital has been taken out of reserves by shares being allocated?
:I cannot say.
:It is very important to know that.
Transport
Railway Accident (Birmingham)
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the accident which occurred on the 7th May last, near Birmingham, when an express train ran into a party of 30 platelayers, two of whom were killed; whether, in view of such a large gang of men being employed, he can state how many look-outs were employed to warn these men of on-coming traffic; and whether all possible precautions were taken by the railway company for the protection of the men?
:I have ordered an inquiry into the circumstances of this accident, and will supply the hon. and gallant Member with a copy of the Inspecting Officer's Report when I receive it.
:Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many look-out men were engaged at the time of the accident?
:Of course, I cannot say until the inquiry has been held.
Road Improvements
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the London County Council provided in their Estimates for 1924–25 for a contribution of £482,400 towards the cost of construction of arterial roads outside the county area, and that, owing to the slow progress made by his Department, only £120,000 was expended; that the corresponding provision by the Council for 1925–26 is £387,000; and whether he can assure the House that, with a view to improving transport facilities and providing employment, he will take vigorous steps to accelerate the progress of these works during the present year?
:I am aware of the provision made by the London County Council for these purposes, which was rightly the maximum possible expenditure. The exceptional wet weather of last autumn and winter necessarily retarded work on these roads to a serious degree, but the work is now progressing as rapidly as possible.
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that £23,750,000 are ear-marked to be spent out of the Road Fund on works executed to relieve unemployment between now and 1930–31, or nearly five millions a year, he will consider the possibility of raising this money on loan, only charging the Road Fund with the interest and sinking fund of the loan, so as to make more money available from the Road Fund for unclassified roads in rural areas?
:I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the possibility of borrowing is not overlooked, but I would remind him that a considerable proportion of the £23,750,000, for works expedited to relieve unemployment, is in respect of expenditure on minor works for which it would not be proper to borrow. I would also remind him that, as the expenditure on the larger works of new construction, for which borrowing might be proper, is already being spread over a period of years, the relief to the immediate revenue of the Road Fund, for which he looks from the raising of money by borrowing, is already secured to a considerable extent.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in America they have County Road Bonds, which are a most popular form of investment, and might not something of that sort be useful here?
:No doubt, if and when it becomes necessary, we shall explore what has been done in other parts of the world, but at the present moment there is no intention of doing so.
asked the Minister of Transport the number of miles of new roads serving London, together with the number of miles of roads widened and improved which have been carried through by his Department since the Armistice?
:The total length of new arterial roads in greater London now open to the public is approximately 107 miles, of which 80¾ are new constructions and 26¼ are widenings of existing roads. This does not include many minor widenings and improvements carried out by local authorities with assistance from the Road Fund.
:In these excellent results now achieved, will the right hon. Gentleman give earnest attention to the surface of the new roads that are now being laid down?
:Yes, I have been giving very considerable attention to it in the last two months, and I think that, especially on the Great North Road, where there was a considerable amount of slipping, the treatment has resulted satisfactorily, and there, at any rate, I have had no complaints for some time. The same treatment will be given to the other roads as soon as possible.
asked the Minister of Transport what efforts he is making to beautify the new trunk roads; whether it is the intention of his Department to plant trees on the roadside; and, if so, if consideration has been given to the planting of fruit trees, as carried out in certain European countries?
:As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, there is at the present time before the House a Bill which, if passed into law, will enable me to make contributions from the Road Fund towards the cost of planting trees on the roadside. Officers of my Department have already consulted with the authorities at Kew and the Forestry Commission as to the types and species of trees most suitable for the purpose, and the claims of fruit trees to consideration will not be overlooked.
Railways (Economies and Facilities)
asked the Minister of Transport if he is in a position to give figures showing the result of the grouping of British railways in effecting economies of administration and overhead charges and improving conditions of service and fares for passengers, lowering freight rates, and improving transport facilities for traders and farmers?
:I am afraid that the detailed information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available.
Water Transport
asked the Minister of Transport whether, seeing that the Royal Commission on Food Prices reports that the railway rates for wheat, flour and bye-products now stand at 50 per cent. above pre-War rates plus a flat addition of 4d. per ton, he proposes to take any action to extend the facilities for water transport in the country?
:I would remind the hon. Member that the Royal Commission reported that railway rates in general have increased by a rate more than 50 per cent., which is less than the average increase of food prices, and that they are therefore a factor tending to reduce food prices below the "normal" level of post-War increase. With regard to water transport, I would refer him to the answer given on the 8th April to a question on the subject asked by the hon. Member for Shoreditch, of which I am sending him a copy.
New Districts (Railway Facilities)
asked the Minister of Transport if he will obtain powers to secure facilities for railway travel for newly developed districts in need of them?
:As the hon. Member is aware, the determination of questions relating to railway facilities devolves, under the existing law, on the Railway and Canal Commission. The law on the subject was amended by Parliament as recently as 1921, and it is not my intention at present to propose any further amendment.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there are many isolated districts which cannot get any powers to secure facilities for railway travel at all because of the monopoly held by railway companies, and will he consider this question?
:This question I understand refers to present railways and the facilities under them, and in that case the remedy is to go to the Railway and Canal Commission and put the matter before them.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman not empowered by the Railways Act, 1921, to intervene in the interests of the public if he considers that inadequate facilities are provided?
:I believe I have the power, but it has been the policy of the Ministry to allow the aggrieved bodies first to make a move.
Workmen's Tickets (Women)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider the desirability of taking steps, by legislation or otherwise, to secure that young women travelling to the London termini or other stations by workmen s tickets may travel by later trains at the same fares so that they may not have to wait about the streets before they commence their work?
:I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply, of which I am sending him a copy, to a somewhat similar question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for the Harrow Division on the 17th February last.
Delivery of Goods, Walsall
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that goods despatched on 12th January, 1925, from Bridge of Weir, Scotland, to Walsall, were not delivered until 23rd January, 1925, or 11 days after despatch; is he aware that before railway amalgamation in pre-War days from three to four days was sufficient for such delivery; and will he take this matter up with the railway company concerned with a view to improvement?
:I am not aware of the circumstances referred to. I will, however, make inquiries, and inform the hon. Member of the result.
Fighting Services
Expenditure (Great Britain, France and Germany)
asked the Prime Minister the cost of the German Army and Navy for the years 1921, 1922, and 1923; and also the cost of the British and French Armies, Navies, and Air Forces, respectively, for the same years?
:As the answer necessarily contains a large number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
UNITED KINGDOM. — 1921–22. 1922–23. 1923–24. £ £ £ Navy … … … … 75,986,141 57,492,389 54,064,349 Army … … … … 86,035,942 50,205,724 46,229,679 Air Force … … … … 14,787,624 12,247,412 14,610,264
FRANCE. — 1921. 1922. 1923. Francs. Francs. Francs. Navy … … … 952,000,000 978,000,000 1,028,000,000 Army … … … 5,493,000,000 4,071,000,000 4,113,000,000 Colonial Services … … … 211,000,000 188,000,000 232,000,000
:Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to give some approximate figure?
:The answer, even when it is received by the hon. Gentleman, will, I am afraid, not convey very much, because although, as I have said, I have given the figures, the difficulty of correlating pounds sterling, francs and marks in these years, especially when the mark went through those astonishing fluctuations, is such that the return is almost unintelligible from the point of view of comparison.
:Surely, this calculation is one that is suitable to the right hon. Gentleman's Department?
:Can the right hon. Gentleman state, approximately, how far the difference in expenditure in Germany on the Army and so forth is responsible for the great depression here?
:That would be an even more complicated calculation, but I am advised that it would be very difficult indeed, for the years 1922 and 1923, to correlate the German figures with the French, and would involve an enormous amount of labour. The mark, as the hon. Gentleman knows, was shifting every day to an enormous extent. If, however, he would like me to try and get him the figures on a comparable basis for the year 1924, when things were more steady, I will do so. In that case, perhaps he will put a question down.
Following are the figures promised:
Germany. — 1921. 1922. 1923. Marks. Marks. Marks. Navy … … … … 687,000,000 1,506,000,000 7,140,000,000 Army … … … … 2,460,000,000 3,341,000,000 21,948,000,000
In the case of France and Germany the figures are estimates only. The great depreciation of the German mark, particularly during 1923, must be borne in mind in connection with the German figures.
The cost of the French Air Force is not shown separately from that of the Navy and Army.
Ex-Ranker Officers
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the discontent of members of the Retired Regular Army Ranker (Permanent Commission) Officers' Association concerning their retired emoluments, etc.; that these officers were promoted to permanent combatant commission from the ranks in the Regular Army, the majority for service in the field, and, in some cases, are receiving less than the pension of a warrant officer; that although these gentlemen belong to the Regular Army, Reserve of Officers, in some cases they are receiving unemployment insurance to augment their retired pay; and if, as these officers are quite distinct from the Army pensioned ranker officers, failing legislation, a Select Committee may be set up in fairness to them in the same manner as the Barnes Committee was for those temporary officers who had previously served in the ranks?
:I have been asked to reply. I am aware of the representations made by the association referred to, but regret that I cannot add anything to the reply of my right hon. Friend to the hon. and gallant Member on 6th April.
Irish Representative Peers
asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has been arrived at with regard to Irish representative peers?
:His Majesty's Government are taking advice upon this matter, and hope to receive it at no very distant date.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very serious breach of the Constitution of the country, and will he take it into serious consideration and have representative peers appointed or elected?
:That is exactly the point that is being investigated.
Royal Navy
Officers' Marriage Allowance
asked the Prime Minister the reasons for the delay in granting marriage allowances to officers of the Royal Navy in view of the fact that the money for this has been voted by Parliament?
:I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply of the 6th May to the hon. and gallant Member for Devon-port (Major Hore-Belisha).
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when we may expect some answer on this matter? Can we have a reply as to why this money, which has been voted by Parliament, has not been granted?
:I am afraid I cannot add anything now.
:Is not this becoming rather a farcical matter, when the House of Commons has voted £350,000 which is not being expended as the House of Commons decreed?
Petty Officers (Second-Class Travel)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware of the discontent that existed amongst the petty officers, Royal Navy, and sergeant ranks of the sister services, on account of the fact that certain petty officers were allowed to travel as second-class passengers during the recent trip of the "Glengorm Castle" to the East; whether he will state under what conditions this privilege was allowed; whether the additional expense so incurred will become a charge on public funds; and whether he will take steps to ensure that in future, when petty officers or ratings are allowed additional privileges while trooping, equal facilities will be given to all men of equal rank or rating to avail themselves of additional comforts, irrespective of the branch to which they belong?
:The Naval Ratings and Royal Marines were provided with accommodation in accordance with the regulations, namely, chief petty officers in second-class cabins and other ratings in appropriate sections of the mess deck. The latter part of the question does not therefore arise.
Blue-Printers and Ordoverax Operators
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the condition of engagement and service of blue-printers and ordoverax operators with a view to their being graded and paid at rates above that of skilled labourers in view of the confidential work they are called upon to do; and whether he will consider the advisability of officially designating these printers and operators as draughtsmen's printers in order that they may be more closely identified with the work they carry out?
:The rating and pay of skilled labourers is appropriate for the men employed in the manner referred to, and, as at present advised, I see no reason for altering the grade in which the men are employed, or for paying higher rates of wages than may be paid under the existing scale for skilled labourers. The suggestions made by my hon. and gallant Friend will, however, be further examined.
Inter-Allied Debts
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which allied countries are now meeting their war-debt obligations to this country?
:No payments are being received by this country in respect of the War Debts incurred under the various Inter-Allied Agreements, as opposed to post-War and Relief Debts.
Finance Bill
Australian Fruit (Preferential Duties)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received any communication from the Prime Minister of Australia asking him to accelerate the introduction of the preferential duties on Australian fruit; and whether, in view of the Australian crops for 1925 having been already gathered, he can arrange for the lower duties to be in effect before 1st July?
:I have seen a telegram from the Prime Minister of Australia in the sense referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend, and have given his representations most careful consideration. I find on inquiry that for some years past the bulk of the dried fruits from Australia are not cleared from bond until after the end of June. In these circumstances, I should not feel justified in interfering with the rules of Parliamentary procedure, under which the increased preferences cannot become operative before the Finance Bill becomes law.
Excess Profits Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of outstanding Excess Profits Duty still unpaid as on 1st April, 1925; and what amount he estimates will be recovered during the present financial year?
:The approximate amount of Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) in assessment but unpaid at the 31st March, 1925, was £130,000,000. This figure is subject to adjustment on appeal or otherwise, and the amount to be ultimately received by the Exchequer will fall far short of the amount stated. The Budget estimate of the net yield of Excess Profits Duty in the present year, after taking account of the arrears to be recovered, the interest to be paid on arrears, the repayments of duty and the duty to be paid in respect of assessments which will be made during the year, is £4,000,000.
Income Tax and Super-Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the proposal to take serious measures to reduce the arrears in Income Tax and Super-tax, he is prepared to induce prompt payment by allowing a small reduction to those who pay their Income Tax or Super-tax promptly?
:A suggestion similar to that which the hon. and gallant Member makes was considered by the Royal Commission on the Income Tax who reported in 1920, and was rejected by them, for reasons which appear to me to be conclusive. They will be found in paragraphs 607 to 611 of the Report of the Commission.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this practice, in the case of large business houses, has worked very satisfactorily?
:I think satisfactorily to the large business houses; but the difficulty is that the bulk of our Income Tax is collected by deduction at the source. Consequently, that is the earliest part paid, and paid promptly. Consequently, a remission on this class would be a remission over the greater part of our tax, and we cannot afford it.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the numerous cases of poultry farmers being assessed under Schedule D, and the refusal of the Commissioners to allow them to be assessed under Schedule B, and in view of other cases where poultry farmers have paid their Schedule B assessment for last year, and are now being re-assessed on those payments for Schedule D, he will issue instructions that the rules for assessment of farmers apply equally to poultry farmers?
:I could not see my way to issue instructions in the sense desired by my hon. and gallant Friend. The question whether in a given case a poultry farmer is assessable to Income Tax under Schedule D on his actual profits, instead of under Schedule B on the annual value of the land occupied by him, is one which largely turns upon the particular facts of the case, and which, in the event of disagreement, becomes a matter of appeal to the appropriate body of Income Tax Commissioners.
:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the case of one farmer, who farms 160 acres, of which 10 acres only are used for poultry, he is assessed on Schedule B in respect of all his land except that used for poultry, and that, although he paid on Schedule B last year, they still go back and want to assess him on Schedule D for his poultry?
:I shall be glad to receive any case that my hon. and gallant Friend thinks specially deserving of attention, but the general principle is what I have stated, and the appeal lies to the local Commissioners.
:Is there any reason why a poultry farmer should be assessed differently from an ordinary farmer?
:It arises where poultry farming is carried on an intensive scale, and very large quantities of poultry are fed, not on the produce of the soil on which they live, but on imported foodstuffs.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the avoidance of Income Tax and Super-tax by means of effecting endowment assurance policies on payment of a single premium and reborrowing the bulk of the money; and whether he proposes to take any steps to deal with this practice?
:My attention has been drawn to the matter to which the hon. Member refers, and I am giving it careful consideration.
Artificial Silk (Rebate)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether the value of artificial silk imported into America will be calculated for the purpose of duty at the selling price in this country, despite any export rebate that may be given?
:As far as I can judge from the United States tariff law, the answer is in the affirmative.
:What will happen to the people who are exporting artificial silk articles to the United States? Will not the rebate be quite valueless?
:I cannot say more than that I think the value will be the British selling price without the export rebate. I find the problem as arising out of the United States provisions so difficult to unravel that it is puzzling to form a definite opinion at all.
:Is it not a fact that no rebate will be permitted?
:If the hon. and gallant Gentleman asks me to do so, I will print the United States tariff provisions in the Official Report, and I think he will then find the same difficulty that I have experienced when he comes to examine for himself the factors of this problem.
Government Publications
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what expenditure is incurred in advertising the sale of Government publications?
:The expenditure incurred in advertising Government publications in the Press during the past financial year amounted to £980. The cost of printing, duplicating and distribution of circulars, etc., issued with the object of stimulating sales during the same period, is estimated at £400.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman think that enough is being done to put the sale of Government publications on a commercial basis?
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Government will consider the desirability of supplying, free of cost, to a comparatively small number of the largest public libraries in representative areas free copies of all Government publications immediately they are published, so that a more general use may be made of information obtained at considerable public cost?
:I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given to the hon. Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne North on the 11th December last and to the hon. Member for Walthamstow West on the 31st March last.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the public are getting the greatest advantage from the public expenditure of money in getting this information under the existing system?
:I think a very large, concession was given only 12 months ago, when, instead of a fixed grant of £250, these libraries were allowed to obtain these publications at half price. That has worked out in a full year as a concession worth over £2,000, and I do not think we can justify swelling the Stationery Office Vote any further.
:Is not the proposal that, by sending these publications to a small number of depository libraries, the libraries may assist the sale in many ways?
:Depository libraries have the advantage of the new and more generous provision. It would be very difficult to draw the line.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Annual General Report for Ceylon for the year 1923, No. 1,243, which has recently been published through His Majesty's Stationery Office at 5s., is issued to the public in Ceylon at Rs. 2 complete, equal approximately to 3s.; and will he inquire into the matter with a view to the price charged by the Stationery Office being reduced?
:The selling price of this Report was fixed under a scale which allows for the cost of printing (presswork) and freight of the copies received from Ceylon for re-issue in this country and for the expenses of publication. If the price were fixed according to the actual cost of each Report it would be necessary to delay publication until the statement of cost had been received from the Colonial Government, and I do not feel prepared to recommend the adoption of that course. The statement of cost in respect of the Report to which the hon. Member draws attention has not yet been received and I am unable, therefore, to say definitely whether the scale price has in this case operated to the disadvantage of the purchaser.
Troops, Waziristan (Special Allowances)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, with regard to the special allowances now being restored to the Royal Berkshire and other regiments now or formerly in Waziristan, he will arrange that these allowances should be made retrospective?
:I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for North Hackney on the 19th May, of which I am having a copy sent to him.
Germany (Flying Rights)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether diplomatic action is being taken by His Majesty's Government to obtain flying rights over German territory for British aircraft, and particularly with a view to the establishment of an air route from London to Prague; and what progress has been made?
:I have been asked to reply. As stated in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member on the 21st May, the negotiations with the German Government, while in other respects satisfactory, did not result in permission being obtained to operate a regular air service over Germany to Prague. I do not think that further representations at the present time would serve any useful purpose.
:With no disrespect to the hon. Baronet, I want to protest against this question not being answered by the Foreign Office. It is a diplomatic question and does not affect the Air Ministry at all. May I ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether we are taking any action to have this matter put right.
:I cannot add anything to what my hon. Friend has said, speaking for the Air Ministry.
Housing
West Ham
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that in the county borough of West Ham the total number of dwelling-houses occupied is 48,342, with an estimated population of 310,000, the average number of persona per house 6'4; and whether, as the poorer people with the larger families live in the smaller houses, he will specially assist the local authority to advance housing requirements commensurate with the needs of the district?
:My right hon. Friend is aware that the position is approximately as stated in the first part of the question. In reply to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to him on the 13th and 20th instant.
:In view of the fact that the local authorities will make no overtures for a conference—that is to say, they will not confer with him—will the hon. Gentleman confer with them, and urge local authorities to do their duty in this respect?
:I do not think we can very well confer with the municipalities if they do not desire to confer with us.
:I did not suggest that. If I make representations here on behalf of the municipality, surely the hon. Gentleman will do what he can on behalf of the Government.
:If the hon. Member would like to confer with me, I will gladly do so, but it is a little difficult to deal with the matter if they do not desire to see us.
Land Purchase
asked the Minister of Health what acreage of land has been purchased by local authorities since 1918 for building and other purposes connected therewith, the average price per acre, and the aggregate cost?
:Since 1918 local authorities have acquired 54,212 acres of land under the Housing Acts at a total capital cost of approximately £11,270,000. This gives an average cost of about £208 per acre.
Contributory Pensions (Administration)
asked the Minister of Health if he will give an assurance, as regards the appointments which are being made in connection with the Pensions Bill, that men and women will be appointed to all grades, that the work will be so arranged as to afford for both equal opportunity of promotion, and that they will also be put upon a common seniority list?
:In making arrangements for the organisation of the work, the engagement of additional staff and promotions and readjustments of existing personnel, the first consideration must be the interests of the work, and, while my right hon. Friend readily agrees to give full and sympathetic consideration to the claims and qualifications of women, he could not give an unqualified assurance to the effect desired by my hon. Friend. The application of the principle of Common Seniority Lists for men and women in the public service has recently been explored by a Committee appointed by the Treasury, and so far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, is about to be considered by the Departmental Whitley Council.
Agricultural Land (Local Rates)
asked the Minister of Health the amount raised by local rates on agricultural land in England and Wales in the year 1894 and the year 1924, respectively?
:Since the hon. Member put down his previous question on this subject my right hon. Friend has endeavoured to frame more complete estimates of the amounts realised on agri- cultural land by sanitary and other rates to which Agricultural Rates Acts do not apply, as well as rates to which these Acts do apply. Agricultural land was not rated separately until the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, had come into operation, but on the assumption that the rateable value of that land was the same in 1894 as in 1897, it is estimated that the amount raised by local rates on agricultural land in England and Wales in the year 1893–94 was £3,170,000. The corresponding amounts raised in the years 1895–96 and 1923–24 are estimated at £3,220,000 and £3,850,000, respectively.
Post Office
Scottish Night Mails
asked the Postmaster-General on how many occasions in 1924, during the months of July, August, September, and October, respectively, the London Midland and Scottish night mail train from London arrived in Aberdeen too late for the mails to catch the first connection to places further on?
:During the four months in question the mails conveyed by the London Midland and Scottish down night mail train failed to connect at Aberdeen with the Keith-Elgin train on 10, 19, 9 and 6 occasions respectively; the corresponding figures for the Deeside train are 10, 17, 9 and 4, and for the Buchan train, 2, 6, 2 and 1.
:In view of the very great inconvenience caused locally, will the hon. Gentleman bring pressure to bear on the railway companies?
:The question is a very difficult one, because two different railway companies are involved. The matter is under close attention.
:Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the London and North Eastern Railway Company's trains are practically never late? Would he not consider the question of transferring the mails from one company to the other?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by telephone users in hearing messages over trunk lines for even short distances; whether this defect in the telephone service is due to worn instruments or defective connections; and if he will assure the House that the question of clear transmission of messages over trunk lines will receive his -earnest attention?
:I am not aware of any general dissatisfaction in regard to speech transmission over trunk lines. On the contrary, complaints in this connection are relatively very few, and this position is largely due to the attention and study given to the subject by the technical officers of the Post Office. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any particular case in mind and will favour me with particulars I shall be happy to have it investigated.
Mining Subsidence (Royal Commission)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can give the probable date when the Royal Commission on Mining Subsidence will issue their Report?
:I am informed that the Commission do not expect to be able to issue a Report before the end of this year.
Unemployment Insurance Benefit
asked the Minister of Labour if he will give the figures showing the amount of covenanted and uncovenanted or extended benefit, respectively, paid under the Unemployment Insurance Acts since the Armistice up to the most recent date for which complete figures are available?
( for Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND): The Accounts of the Unemployment Fund are not kept in such a manner as to distinguish between the amounts of standard and extended benefit paid. The total amount of benefit paid from the Armistice to 16th May, 1925. is £204,427,000.
Imperial Shipping Committee
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the question of inviting Mr. W. T. R. Preston, of Ontario, to give evidence before the Imperial Shipping Board, has been considered; if so, with what result; and, if not, will consideration be given to the question?
:The Imperial Shipping Committee have been requested to investigate North Atlantic shipping rates and their effect on the Empire trade, with special reference to the influence of the conference system or of other forms of association on these rates and on the services provided. The Committee will determine what evidence in necessary for this purpose, and I understand they have already expressed a desire to hear witnesses from Canada.
Mr. SPEAKER'S ACTION (25th May.)
:Mr. Speaker, will you indicate what course is open to hon. Members of this House who desire respectfully to challenge your ruling in giving the Closure last night on the Finance Bill?
:I should have thought that the hon. and gallant Member was aware of the Rule that, should he wish to censure my conduct in this particular, he must do it by tabling a Motion in the proper manner, according to the Rule.
:I beg to give notice, on behalf of the right hon. Members for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), Swansea West (Mr. Runciman), Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond), and Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), and hon. Members who sit on these benches, that I shall, at an early date, call attention to the action of Mr. Speaker, on 25th May, when, contrary to recent precedents, he granted the Closure on the Motion for the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, and I shall move—am I at liberty to give notice now?—
[Mr. Speaker
"That, in order to preserve "—
:On a point of Order. May I ask whether any private Member is entitled to direct public attention to a Motion which he intends to move, and to abandon the usual practice by making public proclamation of that Motion?
:I have no objection.
and to move,
"That, in order to preserve the traditions of the House of Commons as a deliberative assembly, where, with due regard to the observance of the Rules of Order, minorities may have an adequate opportunity of being heard, this House declares that the safeguards for minorities, provided under Standing Order 26, are intended to be real and effective, and should be so treated by the Chair."
:I imagine that that would be out of order. The hon. and gallant Member and his Friends must make up their minds whether they wish to censure my general conduct in the Chair or not. If they do, the means are open to them of tabling a Motion.
:In order to preserve the traditions of the House of Commons, may I ask whether the hon. and gallant Member has made any apology for the comments, which are published in the Official Report, on your ruling last night?
:Not that I am aware of
:May I ask whether there is any precedent in the last 11 years for the Closure on the Finance Bill?
:I must remind the hon. and gallant Member that he is entirely out of Order in challenging my conduct in this way. If he wishes to do so, let him take the proper course.
The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.
Allotments Bill
Reported, with Amendments from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Wednesday, 10th June, and to be printed. [Bill 189.]
Sandwich Port and Haven Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday, 9th June, and to be printed. [Bill 190.]
Chairmen's Panel.,
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed him to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Rating and Valuation Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Northern Ireland Land Bill, without Amendment.
China Indemnity (Application) Bill, with an Amendment.
Performing Animals (No. 2) Bill,
Bideford Harbour Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the construction of a new bridge over the Haven of Great Yarmouth; the construction of tramways; and for other purposes." [Great Yarmouth Haven Bridge Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the urban district council of Leek to construct waterworks; to make further provision with regard to their water undertaking; and for other purposes." [Leek Urban District Council Water Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for differential rating in the Sheffield Union; and for other purposes." [Sheffield Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act t(empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the county borough o: Oldham to execute street improvements; to confer further powers upon them in connection with their several undertakings; to consolidate, with amendments, the local legislation relating to their tramways undertaking; to make better provision for the health, local government and finance of the borough and the levying of rates therein; and for other purposes." [Oldham Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision for preventing pollution and obstruction of certain streams and securing proper land drainage in the county of Surrey; to confer on the Surrey County Council further powers for those purposes and for the better government and administration of the county in relation to maternity homes, employment agencies, places of public entertainment, and the manufacture and sale of Ice cream, and with respect to main and arterial roads; to authorise the council to establish fire and employers' liability insurance funds; and for other purposes." [Surrey County Council Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the City of Nottingham and county of the same city to construct street works, a railway, and tramways; to provide and work trolley vehicles on further routes; to extend the Corporation's water limits; to provide for the establishment of a yarn and textile testing bureau by University College, Nottingham; to confer further powers on the Corporation with regard to the good government of the city; and for other purposes." [Nottingham Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Blackpool for the construction of street improvements and tramways and the running of omnibuses; to enlarge their powers in regard to their tramway, gas, and electricity undertakings; and to make further provision with respect to the health, local government, and improvement of the borough; and for other purposes." [Blackpool Improvement Bill [ Lords. ]
Great Yarmouth Haven Bridge Bill [ Lords. ],
Leek Urban District Council Water Bill [ Lords. ],
Sheffield Corporation Bill [ Lords. ],
Oldham Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Surrey County Council Bill [ Lords ],
Nottingham Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Blackpool Improvement Bill [ Lords ],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A: Mr. Albert Alexander, Sir Henry Buckingham, Mr. Campbell, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson; and had appointed in substitution: Major Crawfurd, Mr. Dunnico, Sir Frank Meyer, and Colonel Vaughan-Morgan.
Standing Committee C
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Mr. Harland and Bear-Admiral Sueter; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Henry Cowan and Lieut.-Colonel Headlam.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
PERFORMING ANIMALS (No. 2) BILL
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Friday, 19th June, and to be printed. [Bill 187.]
China Indemnity (Application) Bill
Lords Amendment to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 188.]
Expiring Laws Continuance Act
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 112.]
Orders of the Day
Supply. [8th Allotted Day.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1925–26
CLASS VI.
Ministry of Pensions
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £41,026,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Pensions, and for sundry Contributions in respect of the Administration of the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, the War Pensions Acts, 1915 to 1921, and sundry Services."—[NOTE: £26,000,000 has been voted on account. ]
:The estimated expenditure of the Ministry of Pensions for the year 1925 1926 amounts to £66,026,000. This represents the largest Vote for any single Department. By the end of this financial year the aggregate expenditure on war pensions since 1917 will have amounted practically to sufficient to pay off the whole of the pre-War National Debt. This £66,000,000 represents a decrease of about £2,858,000, or 4 per cent., on the expenditure of the previous year. The expenditure of the year that is just passed was £68,883,000, and that represented again a fall on the year 1923–1924 of £3,225,000, so that the estimated reduction this year is less than the actual reduction last year.
The broad fact governing the expenditure in regard to war pensions, not only of this country, but of every country that took part in the late War, is that, while the annual expenditure is becoming more stable, the liability is nevertheless a diminishing quantity, because the Ministry is paying compensation for the effects of an event—the Great War— which terminated already more than six years ago. The consequences of the War, the injuries and the ailments that it involved, and the claims that arise for compensation in respect of them, must diminish with the lapse of time as each year goes by. At the same time, there is necessarily also a diminution in the staff and administrative expenditure involved, and in all the other expenses of the Ministry which attach to the handling and treatment of cases.
As the several factors making for increase or decrease become better known the liability of the country can be estimated with greater accuracy, but it is still difficult to prepare exact Estimates for this Ministry.
The principal items for the Ministry's service which call for special notice, are the cost of administration, the cost of medical treatment, and last, but not least, the cost of the pensions themselves. In each of these items there is some decrease of expenditure; but I am glad to say that, proportionately, the largest decrease is in the items of administration and medical expenses, which show a total fall of 16 per cent. The smallest fall will take place in the item of pensions and allowances to pensioners, which I estimate will not exceed 3 per cent. Administration will cost £2,666,600, a decrease of no less than 12 per cent. This means that more of the money is going to the pensioner and less to the cost of administering it. In 1922–1923 the cost of administration was 1s. 1¼d. in the £ of the Ministry's expenditure. In 1925–1926 it will be but little over 10d. in the £.
The inevitable reduction in the volume of the Ministry's work is paralleled by a reduction in the number of the staff engaged and the office accommodation utilised. Thus at the end of the year that is past—that is at the 31st March, 1925, the total salaried whole-time staff of the Ministry numbered 15,630. In 1921 no less than 32,000 staff were on the pay roll of the Ministry. This large total has been reduced by more than half. The reduction in the volume of work done by the Ministry could be illustrated by figures in every branch of the Department's work. There is, of course, a large nucleus volume of standing work— ( e.g., the payment of pensions, verification of accounts, and miscellaneous correspondence)—which diminishes very slowly, but the volume of fresh cases is decreasing rapidly. Let me illustrate this:—( a ) In 1923–24, the year of the last Conservative Administration, the Minis- try was handling 22,000 cases every week, whether of fresh claim or renewal of award or for medical treatment or other purposes. In 1924–1925 the Ministry handled an average of 12,000 cases a week. ( b ) Again in 1922–1923, the total number of interviews given in the local offices of the Ministry in the March quarter of that year was 647,835. In the three months ended the 31st December, 1924, the number of interviews had fallen to 328,724. In each case the reduction is roughly by one-half.
:What is the definition of interview?
:If a pensioner comes into the local office to make an inquiry, that is an interview? The same basis is taken in each case in making the comparison. I am comparing the work and the cost to-day and a year ago. Some other person may come to inquire on behalf of the pensioner. The Ministry has under successive Governments, adhered to the policy of giving the maximum number of posts possible to ex-service men, and of the whole male staff of the Ministry 974 per cent. are ex-service men. Women employés are about one-third of the whole staff and these are employed on work for which women by normal practice, both inside and outside the Service, are ordinarily judged to be better fitted, but even so their numbers and the proportion they bear to the total staff are diminishing. The Pension Issue Office, whose work is somewhat similar to that of the Savings Bank Department, was at one time almost entirely staffed by women, but at the present time not much more than one-half of the clerical staff consists of women. They are the residue of those who were engaged at a time when men were not available and whose experience in the work of pension issue, on which to so great an extent the convenience of pensioners and the smooth working of administration depends, makes their retention necessary. No further women clerks have been engaged in Pension Issue Office since 1919, and all vacancies are filled by ex-service men.
Among the most vital elements of pensions administration are the local offices and the local war pensions committees. There are in active operation 436 local offices and 170 committees. These two factors are vital to the administration because ( a ) it is through the local offices that the bulk of the claims which come under the pension warrants are made; and ( b ) it is very largely through the committees that complaints on individual cases and on the local pensions administration generally are made and as far as possible put right. I desire to lay stress on the last point because I regard the committees as the most valuable external adjunct of the Ministry. In the case of a constituency like my own, where both the pensioners and the Member of Parliament are fortunate in having a very good local committee, I find that the Member of Parliament is very little troubled with pension complaints. I myself have very few letters on pension matters from my own 85,000 constituents.
:You are very fortunate.
:That is the point which I am making, because if pensioners would go more to the local committees and less to Members of Parliament it would be better for them.
:Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that some local committees get no replies when they write to the Ministry?
:I will deal with that presently. Under the War Pensions Act, 1921, Parliament deliberately consolidated the position of the local committees.
:I know it did.
:If the hon. Member would give me a fair chance—
:Do not be offensive. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]
:I understand that the hon. and gallant Member wishes to take part in the Debate later on. There is every probability that he will be able to do so unless he exhausts his right of speech beforehand.
:I must apologise, but I do want the Minister not to be offensive, because it is well known that there are such things as Ministers' cases with which I wish to deal.
:There are Ministers' cases; there are also inaccurate state- ments by Members of Parliament. In the War Pensions Act, 1921, Parliament deliberately consolidated the position of the local committees. It prescribed their composition in such a way as to make them representative of every section of the community in touch with the pensioner, as well as of the pensioners themselves. As such this Act gave the committees the statutory duty of hearing complaints from individuals, and of making representations if they thought proper to the Minister, both in individual cases and generally on the pensions administration of their localities. If applicants were to avail themselves fully of the help of the local area officers and of the local committees, and if complaints were made as they should be to them, the pressure of correspondence on Members of Parliament at Westminster would be greatly relieved.
4.0 P.M.
At the same time, and in the same Act of 1921, Parliament created a central advisory committee whose members would be drawn from the local war pension committees, from ex-service men, and from officials of the Ministry, as a regular consultative body from whom the Minister could seek advice from time to time on matters of policy or administration The local committees and the central advisory committee complete the scheme of voluntary assistance to the Ministry as Parliament contemplated it when passing the Act of 1921. For the last five years there has teen a third set of local bodies called regional advisory councils. These councils have no statutory existence, but were constituted as a part of the decentralised regional administration of the Ministry which was set up in 1919, when the volume of the Ministry's work was very much heavier than it is now. The object was to bring to the knowledge of the regional director and his staff, and in consultation with him, points at which pensions administration in the region appeared not to be working well. My predecessor in the late Labour Government initiated en experiment. He abolished the existing advisory councils and constituted eight new councils on entirely new lines. At the same time, he issued a direction to the war pension committees that, in future, instead of sending their resolutions direct to the Minister, they should address them to the advisory councils, and he told the new advisory councils, in their turn, that their resolutions were again not to be addressed to the Minister, but to the clerk to the central advisory committee. The first immediate practical result of these steps was, I am quite sure, contrary to my predecessor's intention, because it meant that for the space of nearly a year no resolutions by war pension committees or advisory councils were considered by the Ministry at all. The new advisory councils only came into existence by slow degrees during the course of 1924, and, by the time that I took office, the central advisory committee had not met for more than a year.
During all that time committees and advisory councils met and passed resolutions, but nothing happened. I took the first practical step to remedy this state of affairs by summoning a meeting of the central advisory committee. By that time some 250 resolutions had accumulated, and, without practically inviting the committee to sit in permanent session, it would have been, and would still be, impossible for it to consider all of them, even were this the soundest method of dealing with them. I put before the committee the most important topic dealt with by the various advisory councils, and, after a useful and friendly discussion, I directed that full replies should be sent for further consideration by these councils. It is my intention, as I have already stated in the House, to have as early as possible another meeting of the central advisory committee to deal with a number of matters.
At the same time, I have felt obliged to correct the misapprehension which was certainly, though no doubt unintentionally, engendered by the announcements made by my predecessor in regard to the relations of war pension committees and advisory councils to the Ministry. I have informed war pension committees, as I was bound to do, that they have a statutory right to send Resolutions direct to me, and that they cannot be compelled to pass them through advisory councils, though they are still free to do so if they wish. I have told the eight advisory councils that their Resolutions, in turn, should be addressed to me, as Minister of Pensions, and not to the central advisory committee. At the same time I wish to make it quite clear that I welcome, and I profit by, frank discussion of difficulties. It is my full intention to consult the central advisory committee on important issues as they arise, as indeed I have often discussed such matters with the Committee in past years. Of these issues as they affect current administration, at any rate war pension committees are the bodies which are mainly and naturally first witnesses. How far the eight advisory councils can be of assistance as intermediary bodies between war pension committees and the Minister remains to be seen. My predecessor clearly regarded them as an experiment, because he appointed them for a year only and even made that year of office run from a date antecedent by some months to the dates of their first meeting. It is my intention to give the experiment a full and fair trial. My one object—and I am confident that it was my predecessor's also—is the efficiency of the administration, and whatever conduces to that will have my support.
I now come to a big matter in which the Ministry is vitally concerned, and that is the medical treatment. The cost of the medical treatment and services will, I estimate, amount to £2,847,000 for this year compared with £3,559,000 last year. Medical treatment is naturally a declining quantity, because, apart from chronic cases, disabilities are inevitably and to an increasing extent reaching a condition of stability where normally no further treatment is likely to be wanted. But I may say that my hon. and gallant Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, will, later, give the Committee a more detailed account of this branch of the Ministry's work.
I turn now to what is, of course, the largest item in the expenditure of the Ministry, namely, the aggregate of the expenditure on pensions and allowances. This item which comprises the cash payments to all individual pensioners, officers, men, widows, dependants and children, will, I estimate, amount for the year 1925–26 to £60,500,000. This compares with a sum of £62,340,000 in 1924–25 and with £64,800,000 in 1923–24, so that the reduction this year is less than the reduction last year. The chief items in this huge total are: £32,700,000 for pensions and allowances to officers, nurses and men; £19,800,000 for pensions to widows of officers and men and their children; £7,720,000 for pensions and allowances to other adult dependants of deceased officers and men. In all over 2,000,000 people, men, women and children, are at the present time receiving compensation.
Taking first the pensions and allowances to officers, nurses and men, the Committee will see that the anticipated expenditure will be: £32,700,000 in 1925–1926, as compared with £33,500,000 in 1924–1925. The expenditure on pensions and allowances is thus diminishing very slightly. In the present year, the decrease will, I estimate, amount only to about 2½ per cent. This process should, so far as can be foreseen, continue for the simple reason that the factors making for diminution must in the course of nature inevitably exceed those making for an increase.
The factors making for an increase of expenditure are, of course, the new claims for compensation made on the Ministry and the increased rates of compensation given to cases which are found from time to time to be growing worse. New claims from men have been coming in at the rate of over 600 a week. This large number is partly due to the fact that the Ministry have taken special steps to advertise very widely the necessity for making claims within the time limit allowed by Statute, namely, seven years from the date of the man's discharge. The factors of decrease are the death rate among disabled men, the cessation of allowances to children as they grow beyond the age of dependency, and such decrease of assessment as must take place under the Warrant on re-examination where there has been an improvement in the condition of disablement. The death rate among disabled men remains fairly stationary, at about 13 per 1,000 annually, a rate about the same as that of the general population. The number of children whose parents cease to be entitled to draw allowances because they have passed the normal pension limit of 16 is an increasing factor. At the present time the number of children so ceasing to be entitled to allowances is about 3,000 a month. Finally, the number of cases in which there is so far an improvement in the condition of disability as to warrant a reduction in the rate of compensation is necessarily a diminishing factor, because final awards have been made in most of these cases already. During last year in not more than 17 per cent. of the cases examined was there any reduction in pension. This compares with an average of 26 per cent. who received an increase.
I come to numbers. The net position of the pension list at present, so far as regards officers and men, is a total of 615,000 officers and men. Of these, more than half have already received final awards and are relieved of the trouble of medical re-examination and of the uncertainty as to their pension rights. The remainder are still on what is called the conditional list. That is to say, their pensions are subject to periodical review, and therefore liable to be put up or down. The latter include those cases which my medical advisers consider are likely to grow worse, or about whose future they are doubtful. The next big item relates to widows and their children and dependants. The estimated cost of these pensions and allowances will be in the aggregate £27,559,000 for 1925–26, as compared with £28,525,000 in 1924–25. Here again there is a small decrease. The factors that make for increase are slightly more than balanced by the inevitable decline in numbers. New claims are being admitted at the average rate of about 120 a week, and there is the further additional cost involved by the automatic increase in the rate of pensions to widows when they reach the age of 40. On the other hand, factors making for decrease are the re-marriage of widows, deaths, and children passing beyond the age of dependency and therefore ceasing to draw allowances. The number of pensioners represented by this expenditure will be approximately 508,000 widows and adult dependants, and in addition 303,000 children.
In connection with this class of pension, I would draw attention, in passing, to the effect of the amendment of the Warrant which I was able to make under the last Conservative Government in favour of the widow of the pensioner who dies more than seven years after his discharge from service. Article 17 of the Ministry Warrants had always given her a small pension, but we were able to improve the rates of it very materially. I am glad to see that my successor, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. O. Roberts) approved of the principles of this change, and applied them by a further amendment of the Warrant to adult dependants other than widows of deceased men. May I congratulate him on the completion of the settlement of this question. The amended provisions are working well. A substantial proportion of the claims made are found to be good and are admitted.
I feel that the Committee will wish to hear, not only the figures of expenditure or numbers, but still more what is the active policy of the Ministry that lies behind these figures. The duty of the Ministry of Pensions is to administer a scheme of compensation for disablement or death by War service. In discharging this duty, the Ministry is governed by Acts of Parliament and Royal Warrants which are the work of successive Governments and of all parties, and which fix the measure of the compensation and the procedure to be followed. The pensions and allowances of the Warrants are not compassionate grants to be increased or diminished at will, nor are they conditional on the wages that a man can earn or on whether he is, or is not, in any particular employment. The Government and Parliament deliberately decided in 1917 that compensation due for disablement resulting from an injury or ailment should be determined by a medical estimate of the extent of the loss of physical or mental capacity sustained without reference to the man's earning capacity in any particular occupation. I am continually being pressed to make special awards of pension on the ground "that the man cannot earn a living in a particular occupation on account of his disablement." One recognises the sincerity with which the point is put forward, but I cannot take these facts into account without altering the whole basis of the award or pension. It would probably, I think, at the present time, actually be a very material gain to the Exchequer, if pensions were only made payable to men who could not get employment in a particular occupation because of their disablement.
The majority of men on the pension list at the present time have, in fact, been pursuing normal occupations at a normal wage, except, of course, so far as they, in common with the whole civil population, have been affected by present industrial depression. But this country, like practically every other country engaged in the late War, definitely decided that the only equitable system of compensation which would do justice between one man and another, which would not distinguish, say, between the bricklayer and the clerk, each of whom had lost a leg, was this system of purely medical assessment of the disablement of the man, viewed simply as a human being. On the whole, I believe that system has been appreciated as a fair one, and at this stage I do not believe the House would wish to alter it.
It was at first a necessary part of the system of compensation to disabled officers and men that the rate of compensation should be adjusted from time to time by medical examination, so that men whose ailments or injuries had improved should not go on getting more than the fair compensation, while on the other hand those whose conditions had grown worse should get an increase of pension. This has meant in the past that there has had to be periodic medical examination in order to determine at what rate the compensation should continue. The Ministry was at one time examining every week as many as 15,000 men, who had to leave their work and waste hours in attending the medical boards. It was strongly urged upon the Government and the Members of this House five years ago—and was urged most persistently by the organisations of ex-service men—that this process of constant re-examination should cease and that there should be final settlement of the compensation due. The Labour party of those days particularly urged that the whole system of war compensation should be brought as nearly as possible on to the lines of the Workmen's Compensation Act. The Government of 1921 recognised the force of the ex-service men's contention, and the War Pensions Bill of 1921, embody the principles of finality, received the unanimous consent of all parties in the House.
The two principles mainly affecting the award of pension to disabled officers and men which were contained in the War Pensions Act, 1921, were the principle of final awards for disablement, and the time limit on fresh claims for pension. As the operation of both these principles is now being questioned in some quarters, I think it will be for the convenience of Members if at this stage I refer to them in some detail. On the first point, final awards, both the last Conservative Government and our successors, the late Labour Government, aimed at reducing to the utmost degree possible the constant medical re-examination of pensioners, and at fixing as fairly and as quickly as possible the due measure of compensation for each. The main line on which this policy has been carried out and developed under both Governments has been by the system of final awards. A final award is a final settlement, both as regards the State and the man, of the rate of compensation due to him in respect of disablement sustained in consequence of an injury or ailment that has arisen out of war service. It is arrived at only after such a time from the first award of compensation to the man (usually after a period of four years) as admits of a proper medical judgment being formed both as to the possibility of arriving at a final settlement and as to the amount of it. As such, the final award has regard both to the past history of the case and to its future. Making the final award does not necessarily mean that the man has wholly recovered from the injury or ailment, nor that he is in such a condition that there may not be some slight fluctuation up or down, but it does mean that a condition of normality has in medical judgment been reached.
The Ministry took the very highest professional medical advice in regard to each kind of disablement, and it was in accordance with the advice of these medical men that final award was made. The rates of compensation are the rates of the pension warrants which have been in operation for the past eight years. These are usually graded at intervals of 10 per cent. from 100 per cent. (total disablement) down to 20 per cent. A final award at the rate of 20 per cent. or over carries a life pension at the rate fixed. For slight disablement assessed at less than 20 per cent., compensation has always taken the form either of a lump sum gratuity or of a terminal allowance extending over a period from six months to three years, according to the nature of the case, and the compensation given must not amount in the aggregate to more than £200. This occasion of the final settlement between the man and the State was regarded as so important that Parliament set up an entirely new body to determine the matter in case of dispute. Every officer or man for whom a final award is fixed is given the right of appeal for a year against the Ministry's award to an independent assessment appeal tribunal, consisting of two doctors and one ex-service officer or man, specially set up by me for the purpose. Members of the tribunal are appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and the corresponding judicial authorities in Scotland and Ireland. In notifying a final award it is the practice of the Ministry to draw particular attention to the right of appeal.
The system of final awards has now been working for nearly five years, and, naturally, has been closely watched, both by myself and my predecessor and by the public. My predecessor under the late Labour Government came, indeed, with the full intention, as he intimated in the House, of inquiring most carefully into the whole system. Nevertheless, he and the late Government decided to continue it in operation—subject, indeed, to an important and, if I may say so, a very sound development which I shall refer to later—the correction of error. During the year that has just passed, which included the Labour Government's term of office, 70,000 final awards were made, including awards of under 20 per cent. Members will doubtless have some observations to make on final awards, and I will, therefore, at this stage confine myself to two points.
:With respect to the statement that generally four years are allowed to lapse before a final award is made, the right hon. Gentleman has not referred to the cases of men who had a, final award made in 1920 and have failed to put in a claim to have their cases considered.
:The point is that Parliament unanimously decided to bring about finality in the Act of 1921. The point I was making was not four years for appeal, but referred to cases where a man had been before a medical board. That was about the time when he would return to normality.
:I want to remind the right hon. Gentleman that four years did not elapse between 1918 and 1920, and any number of men had final awards made in 1920, and have since lost the right of appeal.
:I think the hon. Member is on a different point. He probably refers to the under 20 per cent. award. It is true that under the Warrant set up by Mr. Barnes cases under 20 per cent. were finally settled on the basis of a lump sum to the man. That was always intended from the first to settle the case. The fact of final settlement was also brought into the Act of 1921. If you have finality for some, you must apply the principle equally above and below 20 per cent. I was about to come, when interrupted, to the point raised by the hon. Member. There is a disposition to distinguish between the final awards made in one class of case, namely, those under 20 per cent. which have not been given a life pension from the awards in other classes of case which are given life pensions. There is a profound misapprehension underlying this. A final award is simply a final assessment of the rate or amount of compensation which is due under the Royal Warrants. Those Warrants, which have been approved by successive Governments and Parliaments for the last eight years, have always provided for a graduated scale of compensation, and have always recognised that for trifling injuries or minor ailments that involved no very material incapacity to the man, compensation was properly given in final settlement as a lump sum or a terminal allowance, and not as a life pension. If you are to have a final settlement at all you must apply it to every class of case, to the less as well as to the more seriously disabled.
I can understand that it is only natural that a man who has not been awarded a life pension should be anxious to secure one. But the State has decided that these minor ailments were to be disposed of by grants and not by life pensions. It always has been so. In fact, unless all the settled principles of compensation are to be upset it must normally be recognised that he has already had his compensation. If he considered that compensation inadequate, he could, as he was informed1 at the time, appeal for more to the independent appeal tribunal. In point of fact, over 100,000 men who have had final awards of less than 20 per cent. have appealed. The result is very striking. In only 5 per cent. of these cases did the tribunal consider that the men's condition justified a life pension. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] Is it not conceivable to hon. Members that the Labour Minister, who originally provided this arrangement may possibly have been in the right, and that the tribunals which decided were also in the right? If the tribunals find that most of these decisions have been right it ought to be a source of satisfaction, because we want to get the decisions right, whatever the amounts may be. On the face of it, it is no more possible to contend that in every case compensation must take the form of a life pension because the employment was war service, than it is possible to advance a similar contention for industrial disablement as regards compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Provided that the award was correctly made in either case, it should stand.
This brings me to my second point— the arrangements in force for the correction of serious error of final award. I realised two years ago, under the late Conservative Government, that occasionally and exceptionally cases occurred in which, notwithstanding the utmost medical care and in spite of the man's right of appeal to the independent Appeal Tribunal, it was found that a serious mistake had been made. In dealing with many hundreds of thousands of cases a mistake here and there must occur. I took steps to correct these cases where they occurred. My successor under the late Labour Government adopted and developed the same principle. The plan accepted by both Governments is a very simple and a very common-sense one. A man who finds himself worse will naturally apply for medical treatment. Medical treatment becomes, therefore, the medium through which error, if there is any, is disclosed. The mere fact that medical treatment is necessary after a final award has been declared does not, of course, in itself mean that the award is wrong. Some cases in which a final award has been made may need treatment hereafter, for the simple reason that a man's condition may, and does often, vary up and down more than once in the course of his life, and it was expressly provided in the scheme, as explained to the House in 1921, that medical treatment at the hands of the Ministry will be available to those cases of final awards of pension. At the same time treatment will show whether the Ministry were wrong when they declared an award final.
They may be shown to be wrong in one of two ways. In medical language, either the diagnosis of the case may have been seriously faulty or the prognosis of the case may have been wrong. Where either of these errors is discovered and the case is seen to have involved a serious under-estimate of the normal extent of the man's disablement as a permanent matter, I am able to recommend the case for further compensation under special sanction. A certain number of cases of this kind come to light every week, and up to the present time my predecessor and I have in fact been able to make an improved award to some 700 cases in this way. And—this is a point to which I could draw special attention—these cases include cases of over 20 per cent. assessment as well as cases of less than 20 per cent. The Ministry's arrangements for the correction of erroneous final awards cover every class of final award. They are not limited to cases under 20 per cent.
It is contended by some people that this procedure is not enough. They accept final settlement in all cases where a life pension has been given, but they urge that in all the cases under 20 per cent., where a life pension has not been given, the Act of Parliament should be amended so as to give all these cases further unlimited rights of appeal to the tribunal, notwithstanding that the Ministry doctors find that medical treatment has put the man right and the Ministry can find no ground for further pension. At the very least, this proposal seems to me to be seriously unjust as between different classes of pensioners. It means that the least disabled cases are to be put in a more favourable position than the more seriously disabled. It means that the man who has not got a life pension, although he has had the compensation due to him under the warrants is nevertheless to be allowed to appeal to the independent appeal tribunal over and over again, in the hope that by good fortune he may one day get on to the pension list and draw a life pension. And the whole apparatus of the Ministry as well as the appeal tribunals is to be maintained solely in order that these under 20 per cent. cases may indefinitely continue to appeal for pension, whenever they can induce a private doctor to say that they are worse or that their ailment has reasserted itself. More than this, the proposal means the end of all finality of settlement. For if this continued and indefinite right to appeal were justifiable in the case of men with minor disabilities whose compensation has been settled, after appeal to the Courts, is it not even more justifiable in the case of officers and men who, because they were more seriously disabled, have already received a life pension?
How the advocates of this change justify their distinction between the two classes of case, I do not know; but I am quite sure that it could not be maintained. But in practice this frankly would mean the end of all finality of settlement. For you cannot have it both ways. As Parliament clearly recognised when unanimously passing the Act of 1921, you cannot arrive at a final settlement which is final only as against the State. In the great majority of cases it is perfectly natural, considering the youth of the majority of men who enlisted and the comparatively slight nature of the ailments which a very large number of them have, and, above all, the elaborate machinery of the Ministry for their medical treatment, that the majority of men have during all these years been found to be steadily improving in health. The final awards of life pension have been based on average disablement, future as well as past. Many thousands of men have received life pensions of larger amount than the temporary pensions they had previously been drawing. I have not the least doubt that in many cases the men's health has materially improved since they got final awards of life pension and indeed these awards have, as Parliament intended, been a direct incentive and assistance to them to get better. If we were now to give an indefinite right of appeal to every case that had a final award, the State would have in fairness to the taxpayer, to deal both with those cases where the man had got better as well as those in which the man had got worse. In other words, large numbers of men would lose. This is really an attack on the whole position of final awards, and it means that you revive again all the old insecurity of pension which you have done away with in the case of more than a quarter of a million men who are now drawing final awards of life pension, and at the same time make it impossible that another quarter of a million men or more who are looking forward to life pensions and are still on the conditional list will ever get them. If the House of Commons decides that there should be no final awards, there will not be final awards, and the men will necessarily be kept on the conditional list. Finally, all this mechanical apparatus specially designed to make a final settlement is once and for all to be set in motion over and over again solely to meet a, small fraction of cases which are admittedly exceptional. It is not suggested apparently that even a majority of final awards are wrong. It is only claimed at the outside that in regard to a bare fraction of them, is there ground for doubt as to the justice of the final settlement.
:That is not admitted.
:I was quoting from some of those who have made this particular criticism, and not from the hon. Member opposite. What I have said is a version of the point of view of those who are criticising us in this respect. It is not contended that the line of working which I and my predecessor adopted for putting these few cases right is not the right one. It is proposed to insert a piece of elaborate apparatus which would in the end upset the whole structure of pensions. To endanger on so small a ground the whole principle of final settlement in the hundreds of thousands of cases where this final award has brought security to the pensioner, would be, in my judgment, a grave error. It is certainly not common sense. At the same time, I am determined to see that the present arrangements for the correction of error work satisfactorily, so that no case in which the final settlement was clearly erroneous remains unamended. It is my intention to examine those arrangements to see that they are adequately meeting the cases of real error as they may arise from time to time. In order to effect this, it is my intention, with the assistance of my hon. and gallant friend the Parliamentary Secretary, to investigate the working of the arrangements not only in the instructions or regulations of the Ministry but in the local offices of the Ministry and in consultation with local war pensions committees. We intend to go through the local areas ourselves and see the local pensions committees ourselves and investigate on the spot.
The other principle of the Act of 1921 to which objection is now being taken, is the time limit of seven years from discharge within which any new claim to pension for disablement must be made. This sounds a merely arbitrary limit, but it is very far from being so. To begin with, it was fixed after full consideration on medical advice. Moreover, practically every country has adopted a time limit—though with a narrower time limit than ours—for the meeting of fresh claims arising out of the great War. The explanation lies in the peculiar conditions of the War. The men—unlike those of the Regular Forces—were enlisted at all ages; they were men of all conditions and occupations, and they were engaged for a brief period of exceptional employment in war service, a third of them for less than two years, and then, without medical examination, returned to civil life. Now the special circumstances of this period of war employment had two consequences. The State was morally bound to adopt a generous attitude in recognising claims that were made upon it in the period immediately following the War. So far from it being true, as I have seen it stated, that a claimant for pension has to prove his case before he can get a pension, the fact is, that he is asked to . do no more, practically, than get some account of his past medical history from his panel doctor or his approved society. My Department has instructions to probe every avenue hinted at by the claimant for evidence that will support his claim. If men had to prove their claims, not more than a fraction of the claims would ever be admitted. It has been a standing principle of the Ministry that where there was serious doubt on the evidence, the claim should be decided in the man's favour, unless the balance of probability was against him. This has been a, sound and wise principle since 1918.
But the very circumstances that made this latitude on the part of the Ministry sound, make it also essential that there should be a limit of time to fresh claims. Unless you have such a time limit, you will get claims made for 50 years to come for any and every ailment arising in civil life. The State has already had claims in respect of half the men who served. Even now there are six claims made for common ailments to every one made for an injury, and even with the assistance of the appeal tribunals, but little more than one claim in four or five for some time past has been found to be admissible. Moreover, there is progressively less and less probability of getting satisfactory evidence for or against new claims. In view of all these considerations, Parliament unanimously decided in 1921 that a time-limit should be set to the making of new claims for disablement compensation arising out of the Great War. The time limit of seven years which was set has been proved by experience to be a reasonable one. At the present moment it is operating only against men who were discharged at the beginning of 1918, and for some time past not more than about three claims in a month have been received from the men who were discharged even as late as 1918. For the men who were demobilised in 1919 and 1920 the time-limit cannot in any case operate until 1926 and 1927. The number of valid claims has for some time past steadily been diminishing, and by the time that the limit of seven years operates effectively I am convinced that cases in which compensation can properly be claimed will be exceptional. The Ministry have from time to time taken steps to advertise the time limit; and only in January last a new poster was exhibited in all post offices.
The Government are prepared to recognise, even after the time-limit, that exceptional cases may arise in which it is clearly demonstrated that serious disablement has been caused by war service, and where, owing either to the peculiar nature of the case or other circumstances, the claim could not reasonably have been made at an earlier date. I have already recognised such claims in about half-a- dozen cases. But it is essential to realise that after this long period of seven years from the man's discharge from service, the valid claim that can be made for the first time for compensation for disablement due to the past employment of years before must be, in the nature of the case, exceptional. The exceptional case must be met by exceptional procedure. To keep up the whole apparatus of mechanical claim and investigation, along with the Ministry's machinery, and the machinery of the appeal tribunals, will, in the end, I am convinced, lead to abuse of the generosity of the nation, and to a wrong to the genuine claimant, because in proportion as it becomes more and more difficult to get evidence either for or against a claim, you would be pressed to ignore the necessity for evidence altogether. You would be pressed, in fact, to adopt the line which was actually proposed by the Labour party in the Bill of 1923, submitted by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, a Bill which frankly proposed, in view of this very failure of evidence, that, in every case of a man who had been for however short a time in service (not necessarily overseas) between August, 1914, and September, 1921, and who claimed at any later time—the next 50 years—that any ailment from which he was suffering was due to his War service, the State should accept full responsibility for pensioning his disablement unless and until it could prove the contrary. A principle such as this would be the very negation of social justice and would, in the end, so seriously discredit the whole scheme of War pensions that it would imperil the position and credit of the men genuinely disabled by War service.
The goal which successive Governments and Ministers of Pensions have set before themselves is the security of the pensioner. It has been, and is being, attained by securing stability of his or her award, whether by way of final award for disabled officers and men or by bringing to an end review of old cases of pension— a, policy which I indicated in 1923 and which my successor, the right hon. Member for West Bromwich, was able to carry to completion. At the same time, it is an essential condition of stability of principle that there should be practical elasticity of working. There are bound to be occasional cases which fall outside this or that rule, whether of law or of Regulation, that should equitably be met. I have always recognised this and I think that my predecessor, the Pensions Minister of the late Labour Government, recognised it very frankly. I quoted on a recent occasion in this House his remark in a public speech which I still think aptly summarises the position of the Minister of Pensions. The Committee will forgive me if I quote it again. He said:
Moreover, it must always be the duty of a. Minister of Pensions, even perhaps more so than many other Ministers of the Crown, to maintain constant touch with the organisation of his Department in its local and individual application because, in the last resort, the justice of the pensions scheme depends upon the just handling of the individual case, and herein lies the grave responsibility which attaches to a Minister of Pensions. In dealing with so large a volume of the population as my Department must do, a volume that is literally measured in millions of people, it is inevitable that there should be a certain number of complaints from people who are dissatisfied. In a former Debate in this House statements were made by Members to the effect that every Member of this House had at least 30 cases in which he was in correspondence with myself or my Department. Those statements were very wide of the mark, because the total volume of complaint that I get in the course of a year does not amount to more than one and a half per cent. of all the cases that are dealt with by my Department, and I may say, without fear of contradiction, that there is no other system of compensation awarded on such a scale which could show anything like so small a proportion of complaints.
But because the complaints are comparatively few in number, they are not, for that reason, negligible. It is the duty of the Minister of Pensions constantly to keep an eye on those complaints, in order to see their real significance. It is very easy to draw a false inference from the complaints. After all, it is not the people who are satisfied who write to Members of this House, or to anybody else, but the people who are not, and it is fatally easy to misjudge the significance of complaints and to allow yourself to be hurried into some far-reaching alteration of principle in order to meet a group of complaints which, in the end, will not only throw out the balance of your whole scheme, but will involve far greater injustice in the long run than the evils which you seek to remedy. It is necessary, therefore, for a Minister of Pensions, while taking careful stock of the significance of complaints, to do two things: He must have regard to those wholly exceptional cases which, as my predecessor, the right hon. Member for West Bromwich, pointed out, equitably call for consideration, and, at the same time, it is the Minister's duty to see whether the working of the rules and practice of the Ministry for any type of case can be modified or improved consistently with the settled principles of pension laid down by this House and by successive Governments.
In this latter direction I would remind the Committee that the Ministry has always kept the initiative in the matter of amendment of Ministry regulation and practice. At each stage of its history it is the Minister and the Department which have initiated reform. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty will remember that it was on his initiative that a Departmental Committee was set up in 1921—his sole initiative. I had the honour of being Chairman of that Committee, and the amendments of practice and regulation which were made in regard to claims of widows and dependants were derived from the initiative of the Minister as a result of his investigation of difficulties. Last, but not least, the whole system for the correction of errors in final award were spontaneous acts of myself and my successor, the right hon. Member for West Bromwich. It is my intention to continue this policy of the Ministry's own initiative.
:I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I am sure it will be the desire of the Committee, as well as it is my own, that I should offer a word or two of congratulation to my right hon. Friend the present Minister for the lucid statement which he has presented to the Committee this afternoon, for the care with which it has been compiled, and for the valuable information which he has furnished hon. Members for the Debate. I want to say at the outset that I wish to approach the question under discussion, as I have always endeavoured to do in my interventions in Pensions Debates, absolutely free from any party considerations, because I believe it has always been a well recognised and honoured tradition of the House of Commons that all service questions as affecting pensions to ex-service men and their dependants should be removed from party considerations, and I hope that that will be the policy which will be continued throughout this Debate. I would next like, if I may, as this is the first occasion on which the Ministry of Pensions Vote has been presented to the Committee since I was made Minister in 1924— there was no such opportunity afforded me during the course of last year—to acknowledge the very cordial assistance which was given to me on every occasion from all quarters of the House. Nothing but the most sympathetic and cordial cooperation was received by myself from Members of all parties, and I would like to take this opportunity of freely acknowledging the assistance given to me in every direction.
We have listened to the statement of the Minister, and everyone will agree with him that a great deal has been accomplished by the Ministry of Pensions since it was first brought into being, but I wish, as far as possible, to avoid dealing with past achievements, for I feel that, notwithstanding the magnificent record of work which does stand behind the respective Ministers and the Department in many directions, perfection, although it may have been aimed at by each and every one, has certainly not been reached. Many mistakes have naturally arisen, and judgment has been exercised which has proved to be erroneous, but I am hoping that we shall be practical enough during the course of the present discussion to try to profit by the experience which can be gained from the evidence which has been submitted, and that we shall have the opportunity subsequently of so changing the administration that we shall be able to bring nearer to a state of perfection all those things which are still essential in the interests of the ex-service men and their dependants. The Minister has made reference this afternoon to the position in which Members of Parliament find themselves from time to time in taking up cases of ex-service men. I have felt for a long time—I expressed it publicly in the speeches which I was privileged to deliver in all parts of the country during the time I was Minister, and I repeat it now—that there are too many cases being submitted to Members of Parliament. They should be very largely reduced, if they cannot be entirely eliminated.
I am not quite in agreement with my right hon. Friend when he suggests that this total elimination or large reduction can be secured by the exercising of the opportunities which are presented through the orthodox and proper channels. I quite agree with and support him in his contention that we should advise and exhort ex-service men, as far as we can, to take advantage of the avenues which have been provided by the Statutes. That is all important, but when that is done there is bound to be a very fair proportion, if not a large percentage, of cases trickling through to Members of Parliament, and I think most Members know the reason why. I feel—and again I have said this publicly while I was Minister; I tried to trace it to its source, and I believe we did something in that direction—that the success of a claim to pensions ought not to depend on the amount of support which it can secure from a particular Member of Parliament. If a verdict favourable to any applicant can be secured after a particular Member of Parliament has irritated the Minister sufficiently, then that judgment ought to have been found possible through the working of the machine in the first instance. That is just the point of difference between the explanation given by my right hon. Friend and the attitude of mind in which I am attempting to judge what has arisen in this connection. I know there will be still a number of exceptional cases which cannot be met by any other means, but I still feel that there are too many cases which are being brought to the notice of Members of Parliament, and which are then securing a successful decision, after they have been through the machine and have been turned down time and time again. I hope the Minister will devote even more of his attention, and exercise that excellent judgment which we know he possesses, to trying to find a method whereby we can eliminate, as far as possible, the presentation of these cases to Members of Parliament from time to time.
The Minister has made this afternoon a considerable reference to the financial side, and has rightly called attention to the sums of money for which he is responsible to-day and for which past Ministers have likewise been responsible. He made a comparison between the position as he finds it to-day with that of last year, when the Labour Government were responsible, and with that in previous years, but I am not quite satisfied. I cannot help having just a little uneasiness in my own mind as to what is going to happen in connection with the administration when we look at the proposed reduction of the Estimates this year. Last year I know that my right hon. Friend and myself had a word or two of difference of opinion with regard to the reduction of the Estimates as between the previous Conservative administration and our own, but I think it is an established fact that, whatever may have been the opinions expressed by him or by myself, and whatever Estimates we started with in 1924, at the end of the year the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had to face a Supplementary Estimate for pensions administration of something over £2,000,000. This year, notwithstanding the fact that last year we did find it necessary to increase the expenditure by over £2,000,000, the present administration comes forward and suggests—and I believe it has been accepted as a fact— on treatment and training allowances, and under the various headings included, a decrease of £487,000; under the heading of widows and children, a reduction of £656,000; and, under the disability pensions classes, a decrease of £420,000. As I say, I cannot help feeling just a little bit uneasy in my own mind as to what is to be the effect on the administration, when we know that last year we were compelled to face a very substantial increase. Knowing that the claims have not been reduced in proportion to the amount which has been submitted, what is to be the effect of the policy which is behind the reduction of the amount which has been asked for? Having made just that reference to the large figures of last year, when a Supplementary Estimate was required, and to those of 1925, I will leave the figures as presented by the right hon. Gentleman to-day to speak for themselves.
The next point I wish to come to is with regard to the advisory councils. I am glad my right hon. Friend has made more than a passing reference to the importance of these new bodies. I think I shall have to claim the right to put my own point of view with regard to these new bodies, and I want to say, quite definitely, at the outset that I regret the action which has been taken by the Minister and his advisers in the comparatively recent letters which have been sent out to the organisations concerned. I feel that in what has been done the Minister is running a considerable danger. He is taking up an attitude, it seems to me, which will totally destroy what is the most valuable element in the administration of pensions in this country, and that is the sympathetic co-operation and good will of the voluntary workers in every part of the United Kingdom. I can see running through the circular letter which has been sent to the advisory councils, which is trickling through and reaching, in one form or another, the whole body of voluntary workers in every part of the country, a considerable danger being created of destroying the large basic fabric on which the success of pensions administration absolutely depends. My right hon. Friend, in his later observations, referred to the fact that he is trying to cultivate and generate a larger expression of support and good will from the voluntary workers all over the country, but I am afraid that, in taking the step he has done with regard to those who have formed the advisory councils, he is destroying with one hand what he is endeavouring to create with the other.
5.0 P.M.
If I may be allowed a personal observation, as one who has previously been a member of a local war pensions committee, I would mention that I graduated from the local war pensions committee and became a member of one of the old area committees, and I can claim, I think, to have had some years of practical experience in association with many of those devoted people who are giving such a large measure of their time to carrying on the work of this Ministry. I resolved, whenever I could—and I believe I have done so in every pensions Debate in which I have taken part—to emphasise the importance of a continuance of a happy relationship between the Ministry and the voluntary workers, and because of that practical, personal association, I claim that I was able to look at it with rather different eyes from any of my predecessors or successor. Therefore, in the creation of the advisory council, as I took that step, the first essential for me to understand was how to win back, if possible, that measure of confidence and good will which seemed to have been lost, at any rate, for a measure of time, and, in my judgment, the creation of the voluntary advisory council, for which I was largely responsible, gave the opportunity for a restoration of that confidence without which no Minister of Pensions can successfully carry on his work. In these circumstances, and knowing something of the difficulties of the voluntary workers who have given so much of their time and their attention to this great and noble work, I feel it is essential that I should just review the work as I found it at the Ministry when I went there in January, 1924. Generally speaking, I believe it is true to say that at that time the old regional advisory councils were very largely inoperative, and never at any time had been fully representative and democratic. I found that a number of regions had been abolished or amalgamated with other regions. I found such a confused state of affairs, that I decided to have an entirely fresh start. I launched a scheme. I personally presided at most of the conferences which were held. In England I presided over a number. I went to Wales, to Scotland and to Ireland. In every direction, the scheme was absolutely unanimously accepted, and I think, if my right hon. Friend will look through the reports, he will find how cordially the new scheme was received, and the complimentary references which were paid to it by representatives of all parties who sat in this House at that time.
The Minister seems to suggest that this new scheme of advisory councils is impracticable, and he gives as a reason that nearly 250 resolutions had come from these new bodies direct to the Ministry. Personally, if I had still been Minister, I should have regarded the receipt of 250 resolutions as a very welcome sign of a return to renewed activity and life, an exhibition of vitality which should be all to the good of pensions administration. When my right hon. Friend suggests that the receipt of 250 resolutions is an impracticable proposition for him to deal with, I think it is right to suggest to him that a large number of those resolutions were a repetition of an expression of opinion on the same subject, and in no sense does it mean that 250 different subjects had to be handled because 250 resolutions were received. I think if an analysis were made it would be found that these important problems, which the Minister has laid before the Committee this afternoon, namely, the time limit, final awards, stabilisation and other subjects, were the main ones which had induced the advisory councils to pass the resolutions they did, and if he analyses them again he would find that these expressions of opinion, as coming from those who have been so disinterestedly engaged in pensions administration, would be extremely helpful to him in the great work with which he is confronted at the present moment.
Before the new advisory council scheme comes into operation, individual committees did just what the Minister is suggesting they should do to-day. Everyone concerned knows the result. Resolutions were often received from local committees. They were acknowledged, and that was the last that was heard of them. Under the scheme which I had the honour to submit, there was a direct channel of communication between the local committee, the advisory council on which each local committee was represented, the central advisory council, and the Minister himself, and I claim that in the scheme, as it was carried through and accepted, there was not one thing which was contrary to the spirit of the Act of 1921. Any resolution passing through those channels, being the considered opinion from the local committee through the advisory council, certainly comes with greater strength and measure of authority than does an expression of opinion from one particular local committee.
In answer to questions in the House a little time ago, we were told that one committee had drawn attention to the situation as affecting the local committees and, apparently, in the communication which was addressed to my right hon. Friend, the committee was under the impression that the statutory rights of local committees had been interfered with by the new circular. Section 2 of the 1921 Act has not, in my judgment, been interfered with in the slightest possible degree, and I can only say, personally, that on each occasion when I addressed the representatives who had been called together, that fact was made perfectly clear to everyone who was present at the meetings. I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he can tell us a little bit more about this protest from the district which caused him to issue the circular letter to the local committees. Was the protest from a committee? Had it received the endorsement of any particular committee, or was the protest from a particular individual? In view of what was said when the scheme was introduced in that district, from which I understand the protest has come, it would be interesting to compare the present position with the very complimentary observations that were passed on that occasion.
I will conclude my reference to the advisory councils with this further comment. No Minister can expect people, whose time is extremely valuable, to attend committees and to waste time in merely listening to statistics of cases, and accepting formal decisions which have been come to. As their name implies, these bodies should be regarded as advisory in the widest and best sense of the word. These 250 resolutions which have been received show how anxious, how desirous the new bodies were of accepting the responsibilities which had been given to them, how willing they were to act in an advisory capacity to assist the Minister, and it is not in the best interest of pensions administration that opinion should be stifled in the slightest degree. It seems to me that communications which have been addressed to the localities in recent times are bound to operate in that particular direction, and I am glad to have some little assurance from the Minister in his main observations, that he is intending to let these councils run for the longest period of time, and to see from experience whether they are likely to be of that value which was contemplated in the first instance. I hope he will set his face against any attempt to stifle any expression of opinion which may come from those bodies.
With regard to the central advisory council, my right hon. Friend has emphasised this afternoon, as he has done on former occasions, that no meeting of that body had been called during my own term of office. There is good and sufficient reason for that. There was no use attempting to call that advisory body into being when I was creating a new body, and it was necessary to wait until each advisory council had appointed its particular representatives. We were only in office eight months. As a matter of fact, before leaving for my holiday on the Adjournment in August, I had tentatively arranged for the first meeting of the central advisory council to be held in October. But, as my right hon. Friend and everyone else know, there were other things which intervened that made it impossible for us to call a meet- ing of the central advisory council, so that when my right hon. Friend says that no resolutions had been passed for more than a year, I think he will understand, and the Committee will understand, there were very good and sufficient reasons why no central advisory council meeting had been held, and why we were not able to carry into effect some of the things we had in mind.
I want to pass to one or two points which we on this side of the House, and, I believe, Members on the other side of the House, still regard as of paramount importance in the discussion of the Pensions Ministry Estimates to-day. I put in the first rank, and make my first point for submission to the Minister, the stabilising of the pensions. My right hon. Friend has not said a great deal about that this afternoon, but I am expecting, when he comes to reply, we shall hear a little further from him. As everyone knows, the present rates of pensions are due for review in 1926. That is not a long way ahead, and the Royal Warrant of 1919 provides that, following a fall in the cost-of-living, pensions may be reduced to a minima of 20 per cent. above the rates provided in the 1918 Warrant. I think that is of substantial importance in the consideration which is being given to this question of stabilisation. The present rate for total disablement is £2 a week, plus allowances for wife, if married before the origin of the injury, and for children under 16. That is the general provision of the award we have under review. The rate for total disablement under the 1918 Warrant is 27s. 6d., plus 20 per cent., bringing it to a total rate of 33s. I want the Committee emphatically to express its view to-day, so that the Minister shall be under no misapprehension as to where the House of Commons stands on the stabilisation of this basic rate, and to say that the present disablement rate must not be reduced. I am attaching considerably more to this question because on the 14th May a question was addressed to my right hon. Friend, and in his reply he said: because when my right hon. Friend's answer is placed alongside the expressed hopes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the anticipated reduction of war pension payments, are we to assume that more reductions are going to be made in the existing amounts? The British Legion is an organisation which is paying considerable attention, naturally, to this point. In their annual report they say:
:Would not this require legislation?
:It could not be done on this Vote, but it could be done.
:On that point, might I say that I was assuming that no fresh powers would have to be sought in order to bring that into operation. May I now turn to the question of final awards. I quite agree that the contention of my right hon. Friend that a final award as a legal enactment is a perfectly reasonable one. I am also satisfied that finality is desirable if it can be accomplished without the imposi- tion of hardship. It seems to me, however, that there is a very big proportion of cases in which it has been found absolutely impossible to forecast the probable condition of any man two years ahead. Medical men, in the administration of final awards for pensions, have been faced with a tremendously difficult task. They have had placed upon them a difficulty which, certainly, ought not to have been imposed upon them. Grave dissatisfaction, notwithstanding what my right hon. Friend has said, has been proved to exist in numerous cases which have been approached and given final weekly allowances. Many men find themselves in very precarious and adverse circumstances because of the recurrence of the particular disease, or the recurrence of the injury. It seems to us, in advocating a further revision of the final awards regulations, that in all cases, whether life pensions or final weekly allowances, the man should be able at once to apply for a new board, or to have a fresh award made, in the event of his condition becoming worse.
The War Pensions Act of 1921 seems to give the Minister power to make final award regulations. It would appear—and I should like to submit this point to hire whether it is not fair—that, subject to their lying on the Table of the House for the necessary period, it is quite within his competence to amend the present regulations. When the right hon. Gentleman attempted to improve the position which had arisen out of the final award regulations, he laid particular emphasis on the correction of errors system, which he himself introduced, and for the extension of which I, as Minister in 1924, was responsible. The British Legion apparently have been paying a little attention to this correction of errors, because I see in their annual report they make a few observations about it, and they can only say that it is "a feeble effort." From the experience which has been gained, I am not at all sure that I do not quite agree with the British Legion. The correction of errors system was extended by myself, only with a desire to experiment, and see whether we could adopt any measure which was going to rectify the wrongs which we knew existed. I am afraid that I cannot accept it in the same way as my right hon. Friend does to-day.
There is another position which arises out of this. Correction of errors means consultation with the Treasury. It seems to me that the Minister, to raise no other objection, is placed in a somewhat invidious position. The Minister himself takes the case whenever he can and considers it. He is satisfied that a wrong decision has been taken, and decides it is a good case to go forward; he desires to correct the error. It is then a case for the Treasury. The latter does not agree with the Minister. His judgment is bet aside. Whatever may be the opinion of the Minister and his advisers, no award can be made in that case. That is one of the great weaknesses so far as the correction of errors is concerned. Some attention will have to be paid to it. It ought not to be so. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) had a great deal to do with setting up the final awards machinery. Reference has been made to the fact this afternoon that when the 1921 Act was under consideration it received the unanimous endorsement of the House. I want, however, to call the attention of my right hon. Friend to this, that although we did not divide the House against the Measure on the Third Reading, I myself was called upon to speak, and I said that
Finality, when it can come with justice and equity, is quite justifiable. But I think the present working of the final awards regulations does permit of too many hard cases. Some further consideration is essential in this particular direction. Whenever I have had the opportunity of meeting these men, I have always assured them that the administrative changes which I was proposing were not to be conclusive if the desired improvements were not effected. I always made my own position clear in connection with the acceptance of the methods of the correction of errors—that no finality was to be attached to the matter so far as I was concerned. It was a tentative experiment. We could then have an idea as to what might happen in the future. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman, I am sorry to say. A thoroughly searching investigation is now due. It is now nearly 12 months since the correction of errors scheme was issued, and the requisite time has been given for gathering many facts which will enable a better judgment to be arrived at. I hope my right hon. Friend, if he cannot accept what I am going to put forward, before I conclude my observations, will be able to say that he will investigate the working of the correction of errors methods, and from the present position will be able to bring in improved Regulations which will help in the hard cases about which we know from time to time. I am certain it can be done without endangering that great principle on which the system of pension administration has been framed, and on which it must rest. There is a sort of between position which can be taken up, because there is no one who would wish to take any action which is going to destroy the fundamental basis on which pensions rest.
I am afraid I have been talking for a long time on these various matters, but there are just one or two others to which I want to make a little reference. The next point to which I come is that of the seven years' limit which, as my right hon. Friend has reminded us, was established by the Act of 1921. This is a point which has been more than once discussed, not only with my predecessor and my successor, but with other Ministers. The seven years right of application from the date of discharge seems, at first sight, to be a very reasonable period indeed. Experience, however, has been gathered and the results have proved that no time limit should be imposed. I understand that reference was made to-day to 1,000 fresh claims which are being made every week, and, again, that one-fourth or one-fifth of these are being allowed. Six years after the end of the War applications are coming in at the rate of 1,000 a week.
indicated dissent.
:Is that not so?
:I think that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to some other figures at the moment. The figures should be 600, not 1,000.
:I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the 600 were disabled men.
:Yes
:Then are there not other cases?
:There are the widows, of course, but I thought the right hon. Gentleman was speaking of the men.
:I will take the 600. That figure will do for my illustration. (Supposing we come to the end of the seven years and the right expires. Applications at the rate of 600 are being made in 1925. Is it reasonable to assume that in less than 12 months' time, with these 600 applications, that no cases will arise which would entitle the man to the right of an application? I cannot conceive that. It seems to me the only just basis on which we can consider the matter at the present time. Knowing some of the difficulties many of the men have been faced with, and the disability not showing itself until such a long period of time after discharge from service, I feel we should say to them, whether the disability shows itself in seven years, in 17 years, or in 27 years after discharge, if the effect can be traced to war service, the man is entitled to a war pension just the same as the men who made their claim within the seven years.
I suppose I shall be asked, "Why did not you, when Minister, deal with this subject? What was your attitude when the point was submitted to you?" I am prepared to face that. The answer I gave to those who raised that question with me was that I always recognised that the nearer you got to the expiry of the seven years' limit the greater the urgency to face it. I always told those who approached me, "This is not an urgent question which we have to face in 1924: the bulk of these claims are not likely to arise until 1926." I said, "I admit it is a question not for to-day, but for to-morrow." We are now 12 months nearer the expiry of that time than we were when this question was first brought to my notice by representatives of the organisations of ex-service men. I want to impress upon the Minister that I think, certainly Parliament would be with him in giving some concession in regard to the time limit, even in eliminating it altogether. I believe public opinion will be satisfied that only in that way can justice be done to meet some of the cases which are outside the operation of the present scheme. I agree with him that we cannot face the possibility of letting in all sorts of cases which might have only a frivolous basis. No one would expect any extension of the time-limit unless reasonable safeguards were set up against any attempt at imposition; but I am certain that with these safeguards, and the reasonable application of common-sense to these proposals, many of the cases of hardship which will undoubtedly arise when the seven years' limit has expired could be prevented altogether.
My right hon. Friend has referred to other points, including the important provision of treatment and training allowances, a side of the work which, though it is magnificent in many ways, is to-day in a position which is far from satisfactory. There are still thousands of men who are unable to resume their normal occupations owing to war injuries, and I want to ask whether consideration has been given to the extension of treatment in training centres where these men can be more adequately dealt with. These cases have been handled in various ways from time to time. I always thought that on the medical side it was a mistake to take away from the Ministry of Pensions any form of service which was required for ex-service men, but that has been done. I believe that even to-day better results could be secured by a closer co-ordination in effort between the three Ministers concerned with the handling of cases which require treatment. Preliminary conversations were engaged in by myself and some of my colleagues last year on the question of this closer co-ordination of effort, and I believe better results would accrue if these conversations could be followed up by my right hon. Friend and his colleagues in charge of the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Health.
I think that applies particularly to what is, perhaps, the most unfortunate class of men the Ministry have to deal with, the tuberculosis cases. There is always a doubt, after this long period of time, about the association of their disease with their War service. All sorts of little difficulties seem to crop up in the case of these tuberculosis men, and I think there is urgent need to see that relief is afforded to tuberculosis men which I believe every Department has been seeking for them for a very long time. In passing, I think I might pay a tribute to the work at such centres as Papworth, Enham, and Preston Hall. We know also of the excellent work carried on at Blackpool, Rednal, and Epsom, and if we are to deal satisfactorily with the ex-service men affected by disability which prevents them getting back into their normal occupations there will have to be an extension of the centres in which the men can go to work in the first instance. I believe the country would reap great benefit from any extended action the Government could take in this direction.
My right hon. Friend dealt also with the question of appeal tribunals, and I would have liked his reference to be more extended than it was. The question was discussed at great length last year. Because I felt there were so many unsatisfactory cases in the flow which came from the appeal tribunals, that I went to the extent of suggesting on one occasion that a super-appeal tribunal might be set up. I would like to know whether my right hon. Friend has been making any careful examination of the cases which do arise in that connection, and whether he can give us any hope that some reforms will be established in co-operation between himself and the Lord Chancellor.
May I say a word about the special grants committee—not to review the general work of the Committee, which I know has been excellent in many ways, but to make a particular reference to the educational method? Educational grants are limited by what it is supposed would have been the capacity of the father to provide for the education of his child or children, had he lived. I have always protested against that basis of making educational grants. Coming from a working-class home which has had to make sacrifices for the education of the children, I know it is impossible to fix the basis correctly by reference to the position of the father. It is an absolute injustice to the children. There is only one sound basis on which this can be judged, and that is to take the capacity of the children and give them assistance to the full extent of their capacity to benefit, and I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to bring about some improvement and see that the State provides the extended education which ought to be given to the children of deceased ex-service men.
The last point to which I must make reference is one to which my right hon. Friend referred, and that is the Pension Issue Office. I want to put it to him that the time has come when consideration should be given to the decentralisation of pension issues. With the reduction in the number of pensions and the increased number of permanent pensions, it would seem to be an economy and facilitate the work if the area offices, which have the local treatment, arrange for the medical boards, provide special diet and other allowances, could be also the issue offices, so that as far as possible the work in connection with pensions should be centralised in the office situated in the district where the pensioner lives. The question was raised some little time ago, and a supplementary question was addresed to my right hon. Friend as to whether it would not save a great deal of expense if the Issue Office were distributed in the regions. My right hon. Friend said: I have looked into the Report of the Departmental Committee, because I was in some doubt as to the attitude they took up. The recommendation of the Department was as follows:
I have one other question. Is there at present any contemplation of the abolition of the Ministry? Uneasiness has been caused from time to time by rumours on the subject. I think the Committee and the country would like to have some fairly definite assurance from the Minister this afternoon as to whether there is any foundation for that suggestion.
:That assurance has already been given in this House. There is no such proposal.
:In conclusion, judging from the observations of my right hon. Friend, it does not seem very likely that the Government will make any concession or much concession in the directions which we have indicated. I have dealt with the questions of stabilisation of pensions, the Special Grants Committee, the appeal tribunals, final awards, treatment and training, and the time limit; and there are other things which come within our observation. We think there are many phases of pensions' administration which still require to be discussed outside the particular points which I have placed before my right hon. Friend and the Committee this afternoon. I say, judging from the references he has made hitherto and his statement this afternoon, there does not seem to be much hope that we will get the concessions we are asking for.
My right hon. Friend stated that he wanted to go back and put before the Committee something of the past work of the administration, what it meant and what it entailed. In what I have said this afternoon I have tried to bring to the attention of the Committee what we think is essential for the future, and that seems to me to be the more important phase of the work we have to do. If I am correct in the conclusions to which I have come, and my right hon. Friend does not propose to make the concessions which have been asked for and pressed, I want to submit to him that the time has now come for setting up a strong Select Committee, representative of all parties in this House, to delve into all the intricacies of this pensions administration once more, and try to find something which will relieve the doubts which are in existence not only in the minds of hon. Members, but also, I think, in his own, too. From his own observations this afternoon there is evidently considerable doubt not only as to the intentions of the framers of the final awards but as to the great errors which are arising from their administration, and I believe there is ground for pressing the claim upon him that a Select Committee should be set up. I am not asking for a Departmental Committee, but a Select Committee, which should comprise the best representatives of this Chamber.
Again, I am prepared to face the question which will inevitably come, if not here at least elsewhere, "Why did not the late Government appoint this Committee, especially as you yourself, before you were Minister, were one of the most insistent Members in asking across the Floor of the House that such a Committee should be set up?" My right hon. Friend will recall that when he was Minister before and I submitted what was called the "Fit for Service, Fit for Pension Bill," he assured me there was nothing we were asking for in that Bill which could not be secured by sympathetic administration.
:I have no recollection of making any statement of the sort. I do not remember ever having spoken on the right hon. Gentleman's Bill, but I am glad to have had the opportunity of pointing out the dangers of it.
:I am not referring to a speech on the Bill itself, but when I put a question to him afterwards as to whether the Government intended to find facilities for the Bill, I think I am correct in saying the right hon. Gentleman observed that administration could secure many of the things which were then desired. If I am incorrect in that—and I am speaking only from memory—I will withdraw it, and make no further reference to it. The position was that, having understood that the many reforms which were necessary could be secured by administrative effort, and that there was no necessity for attempting to undertake legislation, I was prepared, when I was given the opportunity, to do what I thought was possible by administrative action. I may say that the question of setting up a Select Committee was under consideration in the early days of the Labour Government coming into office. In fact, the ex-Prime Minister advanced the opinion that the setting up of a Committee would be a good commencement of the work. I disagreed with that view, and I sought to do by administrative action the best that was in my power.
I may have been mistaken, and certainly there does come a time when one exhausts all the resources of administrative action. If that time did not come within the period in which we were in office, it must not be forgotten that another 12 months have gone by, and I believe the time has now come when we can definitely declare that all administrative channels have been well nigh exhausted, and that we must face up to the position whether or not we are going to have a complete review of the whole position as affecting pensions warrants, and see if it is not possible to bring into being a system under which greater justice will be possible, and we shall be able to eliminate nearly all, if not quite all, the cases of hardships which are now being brought to notice from time to time. This is a matter which is creating widespread interest, and it is one of great concern not only to Members of this House but to the whole country. With regard to ex-service men and their dependants, we cannot emphasise too much the importance of discussion in this Chamber this afternoon. Parliament itself has a great responsibility to people on this subject. There is a demand for a revision, consolidation, and simplification of the existing regulations, and I think a Select Committee such as I have suggested would be able to deal with all the points which would be raised in connection with these subjects. There are questions of finality and stabilisation of benefits, which in themselves are of sufficient importance to attract the attention of a special committee, but, when you take these subjects and a multitude of others connected with them, I feel certain that, in asking for the setting up of this Select Committee, we are not asking too much, and I hope the Minister of Pensions will find it possible to take the course I have outlined to-day.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and other hon. Members opposite have had these cases brought to their notice personally. Many of them fought with him and others on all sides of the House I was not one of those who fought with the men in France or elsewhere, but I sat on a tribunal which sent other men to fight, and as long as there is an ex-service man not getting justice I will, to the best of my power, help to secure it for him. I believe there are many of them not getting justice, and they are not likely to secure it under the existing machinery. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions is as anxious as I am that full justice shall be done to those who fought for their country in the hour of its greatest stress. That is the desire and intention of Parliament, and I hope the House will see that a Select Committee is appointed and empowered to review the whole of the circumstances, and then we may have the satisfaction of knowing that we have brought into operation a system of pensions such as the world has never known before, and one which will do justice to this great nation.
:The main discussion so far. this afternoon has been concerned directly and indirectly with the fundamental policy which I had the honour of laying down in the Act. of 1921, and I hope the Committee will forgive me if I intervene just for a few moments. Let me congratulate my right hon. Friend and old colleague the Minister of Pensions on the very able, lucid, and comprehensive speech which he has delivered this afternoon. Personally, I feel that so long as he is at the head of that Department the interest of all pensioners will be very carefully looked after. I do not think my right hon. Friend need complain of the tone or temper of the speech which has just been delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Roberts) who has every reason to congratulate himself, because during the time he was Minister of Pensions he went heart and soul into the work, and the result of his tenure of office, short though it was, appears this afternoon in the speech which he has just delivered. I do not propose to follow him into all the points he has adumbrated, but I propose to deal with one or two of them.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions very rightly said that the Estimate which he was placing before the House was the largest single vote Estimate of the Government, and even then it is only half the Estimate which existed when I first became Minister of Pensions. In 1920 the Estimate was no less than £123,000,000. I should like to make it very clear that if there is that reduction it is a natural reduction, and it is not one brought about by cutting down illegitimately the pensions of ex-service men. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why illegitimately?"] My right hon. Friend and colleague was Minister of Pensions for some time, and I am perfectly certain that if foe had heard of any secret instructions which had been issued he would be the first to condemn them. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) knows perfectly well that there is no such thing in existence as a secret instruction issued by any Department of the Ministry of Pensions under the cognisance of the Minister of Pensions.
:The right hon. Gentleman said there had been no cutting down of pensions of those legitimately entitled to them. I know there-are thousands of cases legitimately entitled to pensions who are not getting them to-day.
:My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well what I mean by illegitimately cutting down pensions. There are certain rules and regulations, sanctioned by this House and by the Royal Warrant which must be obeyed, and, however sympathetic a Minister of Pensions may be, he is bound to keep within those rules and regulations. It is wrong to place before the country the idea of making those men think for a single moment that this House would tolerate the existence of any Minister of Pensions who sanctioned a reduction of pensions illegitimately. The reduction of these estimates comes about in a very natural way. I was very glad to hear my right hon. Friend assume for himself credit for the amount which the administration of pensions would cost at the present moment. I think it is a wonderful achievement when dealing with over two million men, women and children of various classes to have an administration which costs only 10d. per head. I believe in time it will be even less, but I think the House is entitled to say that the cost of the administration is in no way excessive, and if the expenditure becomes less in that direction such a decrease will always be welcome.
The House also forgets that during three years no less than £55,000,000 was spent in medical treatment. I understand my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley) will tell the House and the country what has been done in that respect later on in the Debate, but I think the taxpayer is entitled to expect a return for that large amount of money which has been spent in trying to bring back to health and strength those gallant men who risked their lives in the service of their country. I think the taxpayer expects to see a reduction of the cost in such respects as these, and we shall await with interest the speech which my hon. and gallant Friend is going to make in connection with medical treatment. Much depends upon the efficient medical treatment of these men under the charge of the Ministry. I do not quite understand from the little battle which has taken place between the Minister of Pensions and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich the position with regard to the Advisory Councils. I was one who believed in the efficacy of the voluntary system, and I gather that both my right hon. Friends agree that without assistance of that kind in every corner of the country it is very difficult to administer a great problem of this kind.
I think I was instrumental in giving statutory powers to no fewer than 170 of these committees and forming a central advisory committee under the Bill of 1921. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions that, if these committees were allowed to do their work, there would be far fewer complaints from pensioners all over the country. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich instituted a new council, but I have not been able to appreciate what the object was or what my right hon. Friend intended them to do, nor did he give to the House any explanation of their coming into existence. I strongly oppose the idea of not allowing these Committees to have a direct appeal to the Minister of Pensions himself. No committee can do its work freely and openly and to the advantage of all concerned unless and until it has the right of appeal direct to the Minister of Pensions.
:I referred to the Section of the Act of 1921 dealing with this point, and I said on every occasion on which I addressed a conference that there was no intention of interfering with the rights of the local committees.
:The resolutions had to go from the local committees to the advisory council, and not direct to the Minister, and, if I were to return again to the Ministry of Pensions, that would be the first thing I should alter. We have heard a good deal about complaints, but complaints when you are dealing with millions of men and women are bound to arise. We used to come across them in the old days. It is strange that you never hear in regard to the millions of cases that have been efficientiy and admirably administered any word of thanks, but the moment there is a complaint, every newspaper and every organisation in the country takes full cognisance of it, and those complaints, I will not say they are manufactured, because that is not the right word, but they are nursed and cuddled in such a way that a Department, which is doing honest and open service, never gets any credit for the good word it has done.
6.0 P.M.
I will come now, if I may, to the very serious points which were raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. Roberts). I refer particularly to final awards. My right hon. Friend very rightly said that that was really the fundamental policy of the Ministry of Pensions. It was, as he was good enough to say, the policy which I initiated, and I stand by that policy to-day. I am quite certain that you can never control a great Department of this kind unless you have finality, and I had, naturally, with my Department—I agree with my right hon. Friend, my most efficient Department— to consider the question of final awards and finality. In France and America they had only, if I remember rightly, a matter of two years in which they had to decide whether awards were to be permanent or not, but we came to the conclusion that, if any man who had served made an application within seven years after his discharge, his application should be considered. As I understand it, my right hon. Friend would like that seven-year period abolished altogether; in other words, he would like the House of Commons to say that any man who served at any time, so long as he lived, should be entitled, whatever his illness, to come forward and claim a pension. That, in a nutshell, is the contention.
We decided upon seven years—and my right hon. Friend thought it was a generous period—because we felt that it was fair towards the man and fair towards the State. It is very often the case that the State can have no control over the conditions which bear upon any individual case after seven years, and any man, after a certain period, can very well come forward and say that he acquired a certain disease or a certain ailment in the service of the country, and the State is without any power of any sort or kind to disprove what he says. The contention of my right hon. Friend is that every man who cares to come forward, if he has served for a day or two in this country or in France at any time of his life, and if he is suffering from any illness, should be entitled to have that claim substantiated and be paid the pension to which he was thereby entitled. I am perfectly certain that this country of ours more willingly pays its debt to its discharged disabled men than any other debt that it has, and it is perfectly prepared willingly to pay any debt which its advisers tell it is due to the man who is so disabled; but I do not chink it would be fair to any Minister in charge of a Pensions Department to come forward and advise the country on the lines which my right hon. Friend suggests, to the effect that any man who has served at any time, whether in this country or in France, if at any time during his lifetime, however long that may be, he is ill, can go to the State and claim a pension as if that illness had come to him because of his War service. I think the proper way is to act as we acted in the past, and take a reasonably long limit of seven years. I remember that my right hon. Friend and other colleagues were quite astonished when I suggested so long a period as seven years. They expected only four years, but I wanted the balance to be, in fairness, on the side of the man, and, instead of saying four years, which my medical boards advised me was a good period, I said seven.
:The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that I protested against it.
:I know that my hon. Friend did protest, but, so far as I remember, there was no Division.
:For the very simple reason that we deferred to the wish of the House to make it a non-party matter.
:As a matter of fact, I think my contention was just as strong. The fact was that many Members of the House expected a period of four years, and we made it, not four, but seven years, and, consequently, the House allowed that to go through without a Division. I am satisfied that it is a reasonable period, and, as I said at the beginning of my remarks on this point, France and America have regarded it as a very generous period. There are, of course, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, many cases which are very difficult, and very likely an arbitrary period—for, after all, this is an arbitrary period— may not be perfect. Nothing in this world is perfect in that respect, when you are dealing with the lives and limbs of men or when you are dealing with a scientific branch of medicine dealing with the lives of men; but I think we are entitled to say that it is a generous period, though it be an arbitrary period, and I think the State is entitled to go a step further and say that it cannot allow an open period of a man's lifetime, because that would be both unfair to many men who have their pensions fixed at the present time and unfair to the taxpayers as a whole.
The real reason why we introduced final awards was that we found at that time a great disquiet and discontent among the men themselves. They were harassed by being dragged month after month to medical boards, which caused great economic dislocation in the industry of the country. An employer never knew when his workmen might be summoned to go, probably miles away, to attend a board, everything was dislocated, and everyone was discontented; and we came to the conclusion that, after four years, at any rate, after the medical boards had been able to stabilise as much as they could the exact nature of the complaint from which the man was suffering, and stabilise its value, as it were, in percentages, we might begin to have finality in our awards.
What is the result? I think I am right in saying that the country as a whole, and the men as a whole, are satisfied with the vast proportion of the final awards. I do not believe that the British Legion — I speak subject to correction—have any complaint at all against what I call life pensions, by which I mean every single pension which has been fixed as a final award. When a man's disablement is of a percentage of 20 and over, up to 100, there are no complaints of any sort or kind. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Fairfield (Major Cohen), who, rightly in my judgment and in the judgment of the House and the country, takes so prominent a part in looking after the ex-service man, agrees with me in that. Is not that a very significant admission? Is it not very significant to find that 80 per cent., admittedly, of the cases so decided by the medical boards of this country, are accepted as being just, true and honourable decisions by the British Legion itself and by the country as a whole?
Now we come to the real difficulty and the real point, namely, the final awards given to men whose assessment for their wounds or disablement is 20 per cent. or under These are the complaints. What are the facts with regard to them? I have always been a strong opponent of this basis of 20 per cent. I could see no rhyme or reason for it except a hard-and-fast and arbitrary rule. I do not believe there is a medical man living who could say that a man's disability is 15 per cent. instead of 25 per cent., and I have always had, I frankly confess, in my own mind and in my own heart a feeling that in cases of that kind there may be some injustice. What do we do? The House demands, in cases of that kind, that there shall be an independent assessment appeal tribunal, and there have been many appeals to that tribunal. That tribunal, in the case of an ex-service man, is composed of two doctors and a serving soldier of the same rank as the man whose case is before it. If he is an officer, then the tribunal consists of two doctors and an officer. So far as I can make out, there are not more than 5 or 10 per cent. even of those cases in which there is discontent at the present time.
Let us consider the circumstances. My right hon. Friend made a point of the fact that the Minister admitted that there were 600 new cases coming up every week. Of course there will be. I remember, in consultation with my advisers, making that very point, because the moment the men, who have hitherto been very well, probably, for six years after their discharge, begin to see that the time is coming when their seven years will be up, and there can be no further appeal, they will obviously all crowd in at the last moment before the seven years are up, and that is to be expected. But notice the condition of these men. Their condition is not very severe, it is not very serious, and there has been, unfortunately, throughout the country a great deal of unemployment among them, and a great deal of illness consequent, not upon war service, but upon the ills which the civilian population have been caused to bear owing to unemployment. You have a very curious condition of health and mind in these men at the present moment. I am sure that, if the medical board were to give them all pensions of 20 per cent. and over, the House of Commons would be very glad; but an obligation has been placed upon my right hon. Friend by the House of Commons that, if these men are aggrieved because of their first award and assessment, he must see to it that they go to the independent assessment appeal tribunal, and he must abide by the judgment of that tribunal. To condemn the Ministry for that which the House has imposed upon it seems to me to be quite illogical, just as I regard it as quite illogical to maintain, as the supporters of a Select Committee maintain, that the doctors are always right when a man gets a permanent pension of over 20 per cent., and almost always wrong when his disability is assessed at under 20 per cent.
I was very glad to hear that my right hon. Friend, as well as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich, is a supporter of what has been termed the correction of errors. That covers a good many of the cases which I have just been discussing, and I am sure it meets to a very large extent the point which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Fairfield will put in the course of the Debate. What I am anxious about is that my right hon. Friend should assure us that he and his Department will extend that correction of errors as far as it is administratively possible to do it. I was glad to hear that they were going all over the country to investigate each compartment of the country and each Department of their vast Ministry, to see whether they can, administratively, get rid of the injustices which many people admit do exist all over the country. My right hon. Friend will probably deny that there are injustices, and he is perfectly entitled to do so, because he is assured, by the only competent people that he has been given to aid him in his judgment, that these are not injustices, but that every decision that is given is given not only scientifically but ably and well. There is no doubt, however, that there are exceptional cases, and I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that such exceptional cases would be treated exceptionally. I am anxious that he should give a pledge to do everything in his power to deal with those exceptional cases.
I think this is an appropriate time to say I do not approve of the appointment of a Select Committee. I do not know what view my colleagues beside me take, but I do not think a Select Committee is the proper body for an adventure of this kind, because we have it admitted that it is only a question of 20 per cent. of doubtful cases. What is the Select Committee going to do? Is it going to select other doctors to decide those cases? What can it do? I put it to any hon. Member who is defending the appointment of a Select Committee—I ask him to tell the House what it can do. We are all agreed that the principle of finality is a sound one; but, while advocating and defending and bringing into realisation the principle of finality, some mistakes may take place. Is the Select Committee going to help to correct those mistakes? All the Select Committee could possibly do would be to sit upstairs, all of them Members of Parliament—no Member of Parliament, naturally, for a moment, would submit to be subjected to any pressure from outside—but all of them predisposed to a certain line of action. There is no getting over that fact. Every single man on that Select Committee would be predisposed, and when the terms of reference are submitted to us I imagine the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich will have a great say in framing the terms of reference. I listened to his speech very carefully, as i was bound to do, and as one would be expected to do, because he speaks with authority. From his speech would anyone be able to draft terms of reference sufficiently strong to justify the appointment of a Select Committee? I think not. I think the burden of his complaint was an administrative burden of complaint, and that can be met, as I believe the Ministry of Pensions is willing that it should be met, by more stringent, more capable and more effective administrative arrangements. Does the right hon. Gentleman think a Select Committee is necessary for the stabilisation of pensions, for he must not forget that the two points he emphasised more than any in his speech were first of all finality, and second stabilisation. I stand here an unrepentant stabiliser of pensions. The right hon. Gentleman quoted a speech of mine delivered in 1923. I very strongly took the view then that £2 per week for a totally disabled man is not a bit too much. It is immaterial to me whether the cost of living goes up or down. I will maintain the attitude I maintained then and say there ought to be a stabilisation of pensions at not a penny less than the amount now being paid all over the kingdom. I hope I have made my position sufficiently clear. I am anxious, as we all are in every quarter of the House, to maintain this question above party—[ Interruption ]. An hon. Member says "Bosh."
:I say it is all tosh.
:That is language which I do not understand.
:The ex-service men do.
:The fact remains that we are all anxious to maintain this question above party, and I am sure in the course of the discussion it will be so maintained. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman once again upon the admirable way he stated the case, and I feel sure so long as he is the Minister of that Department, he will continue to bring to the cares and worries of the ex-service man the assiduity, the intelligence and the sympathy which he displayed for so long when he was my colleague in that office.
:Before criticising the policy of the Pensions Minister I should like to make it perfectly clear that I am making no personal attack on him whatever. I have too much knowledge of his great sympathy with regard to the ex-service men on any question that I have had to approach him on. My whole criticism will be on the Pensions Ministry administration. Before I go on, I must make a personal explanation to the Committee arising out of two replies the Minister gave at Question Time with regard to a statement I made in the House on a certain matter. After I made that statement, the Minister sent for me and asked me if I could prove it up to the hilt, as I said I could. I told him the statement had been made to me by a medical man of standing in the Pensions Ministry, and that if he could give me a letter guaranteeing that no proceedings would be taken against that man for giving me this information, I would give him all the help I could. My right hon. Friend did not see his way to give me that letter. My only complaint against him is that when he said I had given him no assistance whatever, if he had told the House the reason why, I should have been perfectly satisfied. He may have led the House to suppose that I was in the habit of making unfounded statements, and, when asked to prove them, running away from what I said I would do. To-day my hands are to a certain extent untied, and I very much regret to have to tell the House the reason they are untied, because since I made that statement—I think it was on 17th December—this medical man has received notice to terminate his engagement with the Ministry at the end of this month, and under these conditions he has told me he will be perfectly prepared, if his statements are challenged, to come to a Committee room in the House and tell hon. Members who are interested in ex-service men's pensions not only what he told me but what he is prepared to prove. I think if I cannot wholly prove my statement, I can show a strong primâ facie case for asking for an inquiry. This is the statement I made: précis which goes before the pensions appeal tribunal, but they are not attached to the précis which we have when we are fighting the case of the men. Therefore, we do not know what was the finding of the medical board or whether that has been altered by the awards officer. This is the case of a man called Robert Ford. He went before a board for a fracture of the femur. The medical board, consisting of three medical men, assessed him at 35 per cent. The basis of 35 per cent. which he was given is knocked down by the Awards Branch to a final award of 1 per cent. Luckily, this is one of the men who was advised to appeal within the one-year statutory limit. He goes before the pensions appeal tribunal. They wash out the award of 1 per cent. and grant him a life pension on the basis of 35 per cent. I have a long letter from the Parliamentary Secretary explaining the case. I will read one or two extracts from it:
With respect to the final awards. I am not going to say that the 240,000 men who have had final awards, and have appealed to the tribunal should all appear before it, but we can surely have some better safeguard than at present exists. There is an instruction by the Ministry that if a man can prove deterioration or error in diagnosis, or that his body contains foreign matter, such as a splinter of a shell or a bullet, that the tribunal will hear his case. That instruction is not worth the paper on which it is written. I will tell the House why. As far as I am informed there are only one per cent. of cases granted, and 99 per cent. are turned down. I have here particulars of a case of a man who applied to the appeal tribunal. The man claimed deterioration and asked to go before the pensions appeal tribunal. Here is a letter written on behalf of the regional director of the north-western area, which is pinned to the man's précis when he goes before the tribunal. It is addressed to the man who is appealing:
:The hon. and gallant Member is under a complete misapprehension. We are bound to carry out the law as passed by this House, and we are bound to warn the man of the disability under which he suffers; but if the tribunal over-ride us on the grounds of. pension, that would be a different matter.
:Although I agree that the man has to be warned, I would point out that the substance of the warning is stated on the back of the précis, which is in the hands of the pensions appeal tribunal. These are administrative points. Certain instructions are issued to the different areas, which, I maintain, are not carried out in the North-Western area—
In the case of a man who is lying in hospital and who puts in an appeal to the pensions tribunal, he is warned that he must wait until he gets better before his appeal comes on. He waits, and perhaps leaves the hospital, but he may go back again, and as a rule these men forget to put in an appeal, and when they come out of the hospital they find that the statutory period has passed by. Here is a case of a pensioner who applied for a pension and who was put off by the officials. Eventually, after weeks of correspondence, he was informed that he could appeal to the House of Lords Tribunal. He then sends in applications for the appeal to be heard, and goes before the tribunal and wins. Then when he puts in for the pension he finds that it only dates from the date on which he applied to go before the appeal tribunal and not from the date when he applied first for his pension. Take the case of a widow who has made application and has been told she can put in an appeal. She wins her case, but the Ministry dates her pension from the elate of her application, and not from the date of her husband's death. I am not quarrelling with the Ministry for this, because it is one of the Regulations, but this is only one of scores of these Regulations which we say are causing injustice, to ex-service men, and should be inquired into and altered.
With regard to the pensions awards, 68 per cent. of the men who have applied to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal win their cases. That means that the decisions of the medical board and of the awarding officers below have been washed out by the men winning their appeal. I have taken a careful summary of the number of cases that I have had before the Appeals Tribunal. I won 75 per cent. of the appeals. Sir Frederick Milner, in the "Manchester Guardian," a few weeks ago, claimed that he wins 80 per cent. of the cases. If you get only an average of 50 per cent. of the cases which go to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, disallowed or allowed, it means that 50 per cent. of these cases that are brought and won are proof positive that the awards that have been made in the cases of these men have been wrong.
I wish to give the House a few cases with which I have come into contact in Manchester. There is one case here of a man suffering from Jacksonian epilepsy. Hon. Members will know that in cases of Jacksonian epilepsy there must be a statutory award of 100 per cent. for life. In the case of this man, William Tattersall, he was awarded 100 per cent. disability by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, after correspondence with the north-western region which extended over six months. The Pensions Appeal Tribunal refused to accede to the Ministry's request that the award should be set aside, and asked the northwestern regional authorities to reconsider the assessment. The usual practice of the north-western regional authorities appears to be to affirm the pensions award, no grounds for further increase in the majority of cases which have been set aside by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, the court considered it inadvisable in the interests of the appellant to set aside the award. The appellant, who had had to wait six months before his appeal was heard, was again successful. I got him an award of 100 per cent., which represents £2 a week for life. There is the further case of William Rothwell. When he came to me, he had not had a board since 1919. The Ministry said they were not satisfied that this man was suffering from Jacksonian epilepsy. He went into the Manchester Royal Infirmary for compound fracture of the frontal bone. Prior to the operation, the Manchester Royal Infirmary authorities confirmed the diagnosis that he was suffering from Jacksonian epilepsy. The pensions authority in Manchester could have got that evidence from the Manchester Royal' Infirmary. The man was visited by the D.C.M.S. of the Manchester Royal Infirmary, and now the Ministry are trying to change the diagnosis. That man went to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal and got his 100 per cent. for Jacksonian epilepsy.
I will give another case of a final award. I have the whole of the précis, but I will only give a few brief particulars. This is the case of a man who was a fireman in one of the biggest works in Salford before he joined up as an A1 man. We all know what sort of physique a fireman has to have. When he came out of the Army he was awarded 20 per cent. for bronchitis. He goes to any number of medical boards and is cut down from 20 per cent. to 6·14 per cent. This man goes before the Pensions Appeal Tribunal and they uphold his award. Last February, three years afterwards, that man dies in Salford Royal Hospital from bronchitis—the very disease that the authorities said had passed away—and he leaves a wife and three children and they are penniless on the streets.
One more case, a most distressing case is that of a man who was before any number of medical boards. He was also out of time. He expressly stated that he did not know that he had to appeal within that time. Until lately a man had to rely on an advertisement in the papers for his knowledge that he had to appeal within two years to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal. Then a notice was sent out from the Ministry. The Ministry have seen fit to advise people by registered letter that they have to put in their claims within that period. The Minister would never have issued an instruction like this if he had not been satisfied that the condition of affairs was not satisfactory. I do not think that any judge in this country would acknowledge that a man had received a communication unless there was a receipt for that communication. This man applied to go before the Tribunal on deterioration. The Minister has had this case before him. I am not blaming the Minister. It is the regulations which I blame. The man had applied to go before an appeal tribunal, but I furthermore claim that he should have had a medical board. The man dropped in a faint in my office three months ago. He is lying ill at home in bed now, and he has never had a board to this day.
I have four cases here. They were tried yesterday in Manchester. These were cases of men who had an award of 100 per cent. for life and who have died. They leave widows and children. It is in the power of the Ministry when a man has had a pension of 100 per cent. for life to pass that pension on automatically to the widow and children, but these four widows were brought up before the Manchester Pensions Appeal Tribunal to prove that they are entitled to this pension. Why are they sent there by the officials? I have a right to assume that it is in the hope that the pensions may be decreased. The President of the Court said yesterday that it was wasting the time of the Court or of the Appeal Tribunal. I mention this fact to show that there is a disposition to try to cut down the pensions. On another point I may read a few lines from one of the communications sent by the Ministry: primâ facie case for setting up a Select Committee, then I do not know what sort of a case is required. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing the Budget, paid a fine tribute to the ex-service men of this country when he said that after they had all passed away there would be a monument to their memory in the pensions which are to be given to the aged and the widows. I ask the Committee to be careful not to besmirch that by giving the men in many cases pensions which are totally inadequate, and in some cases giving men who are entitled to pensions nothing at all.
:We have very few opportunities, except by question and answer, in this House of dealing with problems connected with the ex-service man and the manifold grievances, a few of which, and only a very few of which, we have heard about from the hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury), who has just sat down. We cannot deny the fact that ex-service men have complained bitterly all over the country with regard to the treatment which is at present meted out to them, and, if I may offer my regret and apologies for having had a brush with the Minister of Pensions this afternoon, I hope he will accept from me, as sincerely as he would from the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, the fact that I have nothing personally against him as a Minister holding his present position. It would be very far from me to say that he is callous or even cold-blooded with regard to the methods by which he is trying to administer the present Royal Warrant in reference to pensions, and also the organisation that has been built up to surround it. I believe that he has tried to be most considerate. I have reason to believe that he has been sympathetic, but what does make me lose my temper, and probably aggravates me and makes me irritable, is to see him surrounded by a barrier which we cannot touch and which we cannot get near.
Time will not permit me to deal with the whole general question but two outstanding matters have been referred to. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) who is an ex-Minister of Pensions, is not here. I would never have believed that the day would come when anyone in this House would say that because the period of seven years has elapsed the 600 cases which are now coming up weekly to be reopened for investigation are merely a consequence of unemployment, and that these men's minds are disturbed on account of the unemployment from which they are suffering, and that they are now coming up in order to protect their cases. That is the statement which has been made, and I resent it on behalf of the ex-service men with whom I was proud to serve in the Great War. I do not think that it is true. A very large number of these men in our district have been able to work, and they proceeded to do some light work, but at the present moment owing to the conditions of the industry in which they were formerly employed they cannot find that work. The Poor Law guardians have pointed out to them that they have got a certain amount of disability, and have told them that, instead of being on parish relief they ought to be maintained by the State through a proper pension for the disability caused by the War. That is the reason why a very large number in our district are applying.
7.0 P.M.
I do not know whether the figures are correct, but it is computed that since the 1st January, 1922, up to the end of March this year there have been something like 500,000 final awards made in the case of ex-service men, and, according to the figures given to-day, in fewer than 200,000 of these cases are the pensions made permanent, that is for life. This means, if the figures are correct, that the case of some 300,000 men who have been disabled in the War who are under 20 per cent. will be wiped off entirely from the pensions books though they have not been restored to the health which they enjoyed before the War. The right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. Roberts), along with the Minister of Pensions and the Member for Ross and Cromarty, seemed to think that there is a great deal of satisfaction in the country with regard to the system of final award. That may be so in reference to the men who have already had their pensions made permanent, I admit, but there is a festering sore in the hundreds of cases of men who on the other hand have been deprived of their pensions, and I think that if the Minister of Pensions were to go about the collieries or the numerous factories of the country, he would find the same amount of dissatisfaction that we have in the industrial Rhondda. But I understand three Members who have spoken with regard to these final awards said that they came from districts which are not industrial at all. The Pensions Minister, I understand, represents Brighton, which is a seaside resort.
:I said my constituency sent a very large proportion of ex-service men just like any other constituency, and we have just as much right as any other.
:I agree, and I want to explain at once. I made no insinuation that the percentage might be higher or lower, but it is a question whether you can do work, surrounded as you are in Brighton with the kind of work requiring to be carried out there, as you would in the Rhondda Valley, by going down to the pits, or in some other industrial centre where we have to work-very hard in the factories. That was the only point I intended to make, and if I did convey the other impression I wish to withdraw that at once. At Swansea, I think it was pointed out, in December or earlier last year, a committee of medical men went into this very question with regard to final awards, and they condemned it hip and thigh as unfair and unjust to the men. They have nothing to do with the British Legion or any organisation either for or against ex-service men. They went into it entirely unbiased and impartial. They came to the conclusion that a system of final awards to men who had served in the War was manifestly unfair, and they believe that with men who made out a primâ facie case it ought to be done away with, and that where complaints had arisen evidence could be produced to show how very unfair it has been operating in hundreds of cases throughout the country.
I have here a number of cases. There is the point made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who just sat down. Under the Workmen's Compensation Act, when a workman has been injured underground in the collieries, he may recover and be able to do light employment, or he may be able to resume his ordinary employment, but if he is still suffering from the effects of the accident he gets what is known and understood as a "declaration of liability," which means that if ever he breaks down, whether in five years, 10 years, or 20 years, if the breakdown is from the effects of the accident which he originally received, then he resumes the compensation which he received when the accident took place. We are appealing for something of the same kind with regard to the ex-service man when we are talking about the seven years' limit.
I have a case here of a man who received a pension. He was a time-expired man when the War broke out. He joined up and was in France in October, 1914. He was taken prisoner, and came back from Germany after 3½ years in the salt mines. He received a pension for some time. He was boarded and re-boarded and got a final award, and then he went back to the colliery to work. He worked intermittently at the colliery, and eventually he broke down and was 11 weeks idle. He went back to the colliery again, and on the first day dropped down dead in one of the roadways in the colliery. Because the seven years were up, and he was receiving no pension at the time, it was only "4 up to 9 per cent.," as they call it. I should like to know how doctors are able to scale so skilfully that a man is only suffering between four and nine or 15 and 19 per cent., and always keeps below 20. This man was below 20, and got no pension at all. We fought the case out in the Courts in order to satisfy ourselves that it was no accident, and that the man did not die from natural causes. A medical man from London was brought down to our colliery district and a post mortem examination was made. It was found that the man did not die of any accident at all or of natural causes, but that he died from the effects of war service and the starvation he had gone through as a prisoner of war in Germany. But, because of the conditions laid down-in the Warrant of 1921, the widow and children are to-day without a pension. I am not going to dwell on the number of cases. They are too numerous to mention even coming from one district alone. We shall be told, I dare say, by the Parliamentary Secretary, who is to reply, that these matters are beyond their power, that they are regulated by the Royal Warrant which lays down statutory rules for them to follow.
I am going to return once more to the question that was very spasmodically discussed when we had very little time, namely, the treatment of ex-service men in regard to entitlement courts in Wales. I want to pay this tribute to the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary. Both of them have paved the way. They have given us their assistance, and have paved the way for us to approach the Lord Chancellor, who alone, we are told, has jurisdiction and control in these matters. Our complaint is this. In England and Wales there are altogether six entitlement courts at present at work and seven assessments courts. Two of those courts, one entitlement court and one assessment court, periodically work in Wales; in some cases amongst Welshmen who are unable to understand the English language at all. There are 65 men engaged in the six entitlement courts and the seven assessment courts, and there is only one Welshman at present, who is a doctor, out of the whole total of 65, sitting upon the two courts when they are in Wales. This is the only place where we can ventilate grievances of this kind, and the Floor of this House is the only sounding board by which we can ventilate grievances which we in Wales are asked to put up with. I make no attack on the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, but here is the only chance we have got of showing how very unfair it is. You took our men to the War from Wales, and, when they are asking for a small measure of justice—to be heard in their own language—you treat them with scorn and set it aside altogether. That is not fair. It is not honest. I do not say anything about any little service I may have rendered, but Wales turned out to the War as well as any other country in the United Kingdom, and all we are asking is that we shall get treatment equal to the Englishman when you carry out this kind of work.
There are anomalies and wrongs in other directions. I would like to ask if you would agree to a Select Committee being appointed? Let me ask the Minister a question as to how administration at present is carried out. Take the clothing grants. He said to me at the beginning that people run to Members of Parliament. I went out to the War with them, and I still try to carry out the same thing as I did at that time. I try to be with them now. Let me narrate my experience of how unfair the present system is with regard to the clothing grants that are being made. Orphans are divided into two classes—one section known as Section 9 children, and the other described as motherless children. Section 9 children are those such as are passed to the Minister because either they have been neglected by the foster parent appointed for them, or they are likely to pass to the Poor Law Institution to be looked after. In order to avoid that, with all due deference, of course, and commendation for that act, they come under the care of the Minister, and they are then put with other guardians, but they are termed Section 9 children.
There are other children known as motherless children for whom foster parents have been selected. They may be relatives or they may be somebody else. In the street I have to go through to get to my house there are a number of houses, and in that street there are two children. In No. 18 there is a motherless child; in No. 20 there is a Section 9 child under the care of the Minister. The Section 9 child of No. 20 was put in No. 40, but the foster parent neglected the child, and we were afraid of the child not being properly treated. The child was taken from No. 40 and put to No. 20. What has it created? I have been pestered all along to try to explain why the child in No. 20 is treated better than the child in No. 18. The regulations amount of each child is supposed to be 12s. a week, but the child in No. 20, because it has been moved there from No. 40 on account of probable neglect and deterioration of the control and everything else of the child, gets now 14s. 4d. a week, and the child in No. 18 only gets 12s. I want to explain how it is done. The child in No. 20, because it has become a Minister's child, now gets a grant of £6 a year as a clothing grant. In 52 weeks one child gets 14s. 4d. and the other only 12s. It is very difficult to explain to people in our district why that should be so. A child was neglected in No. 40 and was taken in order to protect it and put it under proper control into No. 20. The people who are looking after the child in No. 18 may be relatives. In any case, the child in No. 18 has been carefully looked after from the beginning, and there has been no complaint.
I have been asking for clothing grant for the motherless child on the same basis as the grant for the Ministry's child. I asked the Minister to see whether something cannot be done. These are small things and will not cost very much, but it creates a sore where two children in the same street are treated differently, as I have described. The Minister may tell us, as he has told us before, that he has an Advisory Council. I have been sitting on some of these advisory councils. I have "had some," and I do not want any more. My experience is that the Minister, whoever he may be, whether he sits on this side of the House or on that, whether he may be the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) or anyone else, takes the advice of the Advisory Council only when it suits him, and leaves it alone when it does not. Is it not possible to do something? There are numbers of grievances, and it would be well for the contentment, not only of the ex-service men, but of the country at large, if a Select Committee were appointed to go into these matters. If the Royal Warrant requires to be changed it ought to be changed, so that no injustice may be done. Those men have suffered too much. They were ready to make the sacrifice during the War. I hope, for the credit and good name of the British nation, that we shall see that, wherever possible, grievances, anomalies and wrongs are removed. The expense of a Select Committee will not be too great, and the labour required not too great, if we are to give satisfaction to those who deserve so well from the hands of their fellow-countrymen for their services during the War.
:Judging from the Minister's speech this afternoon, he would appear to think that
Speaking broadly, we are satisfied with the final awards of over 20 per cent., but we are not in the least satisfied with those in cases under 20 per cent. The Minister says that we are illogical. He says that it is impossible to ask for a portion of the whole, for one slice of the cake. Tie immediately assured us that if we did ask for the whole of the cake he would certainly refuse it. We do not want to upset the whole of the pensions scheme, as we are assured it will be upset, by having the whole of the final awards revised. We, therefore, ask for as little as is consistent with the objects that we have in view. The Minister always assures us that the ex-service men asked for final awards. I am not sure that he did ask for final awards. What he did ask for was final pensions, and there is all the difference in the world between final awards and final pensions. Let me explain the difference between cases over 20 per cent. and those under 20 per cent. At present a man, if assessed at a pension of 30 per cent., is in receipt of that pension, whatever it may be, for as long as he lives, for 20, 30, or 10 years; but if he is awarded a pension of, say, 15 or 19 per cent., immediately that pension ceases to be a pension and becomes an award, and he is given a lump sum. I do not know how it is calculated. It is, certainly, not calculated on an actuarial basis, and it is not cash down, because the payment is spread over two or three years.
The position is that the man assessed at over 20 per cent. is in receipt of a certain sum for as long as he lives, but in the case of the man assessed at under 20 per cent. no account whatever is taken of the length of time a man may live. If he lives for two years and the amount has been spread over two years, he is all right, but if he lives any longer his claim for that longer period is entirely washed out. It does not seem illogical to claim that that arrangement should be revised. At the present time there are literally thousands of men who have become worse since they were given these final awards, and they are getting no relief whatever. I know of the regulation for the "correction of error." I hate the term. It reminds me of the algebra that I learned at school, and it does not sound a bit as if we were dealing with human beings. If the regulation worked properly one would have less criticism to make of it. But it does not work properly. I do not know where the fault is I am certain that the fault has nothing to do with the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary. But the regulation does not work, and the British Legion has 3,000 cases, which they would be pleased to submit to the Minister, of men who cannot get any benefit at all.
Our contention is that, if a man gets a final award of under 20 per cent. and then becomes worse, he should be entitled to make an appeal. What should entitle him to make that appeal is a medical certificate signed by a qualified practitioner or by two or three qualified practitioners. The main point is that it should be a civilian practitioner who signs the certificate and not one of the Ministry's doctors. I have nothing whatever to say against Ministry doctors. I know of a great many of them who are very kind, but there is no doubt that a man looks after the interests of his master, and that if he is working for the Ministry of Pensions a doctor is entitled to consider them, unconsciously perhaps, more than he considers the pensioner. That I claim is not destructive criticism, but constructive criticism. I have been on deputations to the Minister with Members of Parliament and also with deputations of the British Legion. I hope that, even at this eleventh hour, the right hon. Gentleman will give the matter his consideration and try to meet us in some way. Finality is a good thing, but it is not the only thing. Finality must be just. The Ministry seem to me to attach more importance to putting the word "finis" at the end of a man's case in their books than to seeing whether it is in his interests to do so.
I will refer now to the seven years' limit, so far as it concerns the widows of men who died in the War. A good many concessions have been made, but I suggest that they are not sufficient. When a man dies outside the seven years from the day of his discharge from the Army, unless he is in receipt of a pension at the time, and unless his death is directly due to service in the Army, his widow is not entitled by statutory right to a pension. There is another paragraph under which she is entitled, not to the maximum rate, but to a lower rate of pension, if she can prove that her husband died in a major degree from injuries received during the War. But even then he must be in receipt of a pension, or must have been in receipt of a pension, of 40 per cent. That regulation, if exercised, is exercised entirely by the Minister. Any regulations which depend on the clemency and goodwill of the Minister are not satisfactory from the point of view of the pensioner. These things ought to be done by statutory right. I know that we have now a Minister who. has the welfare of the ex-service men very much at heart. But he will not always be there. He may be transferred to higher spheres, and then there may come along a Pharaoh who "Knows not Joseph." I am wondering then what will be the lot of Joseph. I cannot see any reason for not making these provisions read that the Minister "may do." It should be that the Minister "shall do."
So far as the men are concerned, they are not entitled to put forward a claim for pension after seven years have elapsed between the date of discharge from the Army and the date of application. Cases may very well arise where men who are really suffering from the War but have not put in their claims would be entitled to a pension award. Many men have not put in claims for pensions because they were not suffering badly although there was something wrong with them. They have been in employment and have felt that they would not bother. When they get out of employment and every penny is necessary, they want to put in a claim for what they were legitimately entitled to claim all along. They have been saving the country expense for a certain period. It is not the fact that they put forward claims for pensions whether entitled to do so or not. The mere fact that last year, six years after the War, some 60,000 men put forward first claims for pensions, and that 18,000 of those, or 30 per cent., were successful, shows that it is not too much to expect that there will be a certain number who will want to put forward their claims seven or eight years after.
A final word as to my vote to-night. We have asked the Minister to meet us in many ways. As far as I can see he has not met us by an inch. I have tremendous faith in the Conservative Government. I have tremendous faith in my leader, and with all due respect I say that there is very little for which the Labour party stands with which I agree. But I am not satisfied with the way in which the ex-service man is being treated, not on matters of policy, but purely on questions of administration. It seems to me that if we cannot be met, if the Minister cannot concede us anything, a Select Committee would be a good method of going into these matters Two hundred and forty-nine Members of this House signed a memorial to the Prime Minister some weeks ago, saying that they were of the same opinion. I know that the Minister thinks it is a fatal thing to trust a Royal Warrant to a Select Committee of this House. I do not know what he thinks Members of this House would do, but, at any rate, they are all supposed to be sensible and responsible men. I do not think the Minister need have very much fear of such a Committee. In any event, it seems to me that the only way out, the only way I now have of getting that Select Committee and of marking my disapproval of the way in which the administration is sometimes carried out, is to vote against the Government with the Opposition, and that I firmly intend to do.
:Before I devote my attention to what my right hon. Friend said at the beginning of the Debate and give the Committee some resume of the work of the Medical Branch of the Ministry, I hope I may refer to the case which has been brought forward by the hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury). He started his speech by saying there was no personal matter against either the Minister or myself. Of course, we quite accept his statement that there was nothing of the sort, but he did, if I may say so, make an attack against somebody who is not here to defend himself. His statement to the House of Commons on 17th February was, I think, somewhat different from what he actually quoted. This is what the OFFICIAL REPORT says:
"I should like the Minister to note this instruction in regard to the assessors. The assessors who do not necessarily see the pensioners at the medical boards are required by the regional awards officer to reduce a certain number of pensions weekly. If they affirm or in some cases increase all the assessments, the regional awards officer sends for them and inquires why they have not produced the regular quota of reductions. That is a fact which is going on in the North Western region and I can prove it up to the hilt."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th February, 1925; col. 981, Vol. 180.]
That is a distinct charge against the awards officer in the North-Western region, and he is not here to defend him- self. Therefore, my right hon. and gallant Friend and myself must take that duty upon ourselves. In pursuance of that my right hon. Friend asked the hon. and gallant Member to come and see him and to give him some information so that he could investigate the charge. The hon. and gallant Member said that it was given to him, as he repeated to-night, by a medical man of standing in the Ministry, and unless my right hon. and gallant Friend would promise that nothing whatever would be done and that no disciplinary action would be taken, he declined to mention the name. I think if the hon. and gallant Member will reflect upon it he will agree that the condition for which he asked was an impossible one for the Minister to grant, for this reason: If this was a man of standing in the Ministry knowing that something directly contrary to the instructions from the Ministry was being carried out by someone in the Ministry, then it was his duty to report the fact to the Ministry himself and to see that it was dealt with, and, if he did not do so, he was obviously unfit to remain in his position. That is one aspect of the case. If, on the other hand, this man had made a statement against his colleagues which was incorrect, I would ask the hon. and gallant Member himself and the Committee to imagine what could possibly be the situation in the Ministry if that man, having made a false charge against his colleagues, were continued in his present position.
:I am in a position to tell the Committee who that medical man is. He is a man who served in the Ministry, and has been a member of the travelling board of the pensions appeal tribunal in this country for the last three years. If the Minister had only said to me, "Bring this man before me in my room, because we must get to the bottom of this business," the matter would have closed there and it would have been to the advantage of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister.
:I am exceedingly obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for his last intervention. What he says proves conclusively that the gentleman in question was not an official of the Ministry at all. The hon. and gallant Member cannot be aware that the members of the appeal tribunal are appointed by the Lord Chancellor and are not under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Pensions at all.
:I do not want to interrupt, but I may tell my hon. and gallant Friend that I am guilty of a piece of bluff. If I had told him what this medical officer was, the Ministry would have got his name, because I know they have been making extended inquiries in the North-Western area to try to get the name of the medical man who has given me the information and I was determined that he should not suffer because of the information he has given me.
:Of course, the simple fact is that the man is not an official of the Ministry and has nothing to do with the Ministry. The hon. and gallant Member himself has kindly informed me of that fact of which I was not aware before. That makes the thing simpler still. The hon. and gallant Member would not tell us who it was. He would not, as we considered, give us any assistance at all to investigate the matter, and therefore my right hon. and gallant Friend was driven to make inquiries in this particular region itself. He made inquiries first from the regional director and next from the regional awards officers, both of whom strenuously denied that any such instructions had been issued or that any such procedure had taken place. Possibly the hon. and gallant Member would not have accepted their denial, but we went further, and we inquired from every one of the medical assessors who are, the Committee must remember, medical men. We inquired if any such instructions had been given to them and every single one of them most strenuously denied it, and some of them made pungent remarks about the hon. and gallant Member's speech on this matter. That is as far as we can go.
:Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell the Committee that these assessors are sessional men and that their engagements with the Ministry can be terminated at one month's notice and they dare not open their mouths because they have their livings to make.
:No, Sir, that is not the fact. I speak from memory, but I will verify it. I am nearly as certain as I can be that no whole-time doctor under the Ministry gets less than six months' notice. It was not a question of their opening their mouths to us about it. They are medical men.
:It surely is not correct that the doctors employed in the assesment courts and entitlement courts get six months' notice.
:The hon. and gallant Member is mistaken. I am not talking about those in the entitlement courts or assessment courts, but about the medical assessors in the Ministry. They are medical men. They are not under the awards officer at all. Most of them wrote and said that if the awards officer had sent for them they would not have gone. We are bound to accept the statement of these 10 men, who all agreed in denying that any such instructions have been given, instead of the statement of the hon. and gallant Member—given no doubt in all good faith but corroborated only by a man whose name he will not tell us and who is not an official of the Ministry at all.
:I will give his name, now that he has been dismissed. The name is Major Brasher, who is not only one of the most respected men but one of the finest men who ever sat on a pension appeal tribunal, because he has the interests of the ex-service men at heart. If he had not those interests at heart he would not have risked his position as he has done.
:What I cannot make the hon. and gallant Member understand is that this gentleman is not one of our officials.
:I explained that the reason I did not tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman he was a member of the pensions tribunal, was because within a very short time they might have got to know who the man was who had given the information.
:I really cannot understand why the hon. and gallant Member should object to our knowing when it is not one of our officials. It certainly weakens his case when he says that he can prove the matter up to the hilt, and yet the only proof is a man who is not one of our officials and is not a person living in that district. I must say I am inclined to believe the word of the awards officer and of the regional director and of the assessors themselves, who are all medical men, in preference to this particular statement which has been made. The hon. and gallant Member quoted an answer given in this House about the assessors, in which my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister explained what the duties of the assessors were, and the hon. and gallant Member said that it was perfectly clear that the assessors were able without ever seeing the man to revise a pension because it was either too high or too low. I think the hon. and gallant Member might have read the remaining part of the answer in question. Had he done so, he would have found that my right hon. and gallant Friend said that the assessors had no power whatever to alter an assessment. All they could do and all that they actually do—I think very rightly in order that there should be some kind of uniformity throughout the country—is to call the attention of the board to certain aspects of the case which might possibly have been overlooked. That has been going on for many years, but on no account is the amount of pension altered in any way by anybody except by the medical board which sees the man before making any change. Had my hon. and gallant Friend read the concluding part of the answer he would have seen what a totally different aspect there is on the facts. I am sorry to deal at some length with his matter but I must refer to the case which the hon. and gallant Member brought forward, the case of a man named Ford. In the first place I think it would have been fairer to the Committee if he had pointed out that this case did not occur yesterday or the day before or last year. The origin of the case was six years ago.
:I really must protest. I did not want to mislead the Committee in any way. I told my right hon. and gallant Friend that I had the précis here of the cases of these men, and that I would not go into the details but would hand the précis to anybody who desired to see the details.
:I am sorry to contradict the hon. and gallant Mem- ber. In this particular case he not only referred to the precis but he quoted parts of my letter to him on that particular case. He also omitted parts of that letter, and, therefore, if the Committee will allow me, I will read the parts which he omitted, and which are essential to an understanding of the question. This is my answer:
"The man had previously received a gratuity for myalgia. The board in question found no disablement from the myalgia but found a hip condition which they assessed at 40 per cent. They had before them a report from the Middlesex Hospital to which the man had been admitted some months after discharge with a history of a fall on the day before his admission. The man informed the hospital authorities that he had had two accidents in France in 1916 and had limped ever since."
The hon. and gallant Member left out the next passage:
"He said that the day before his admission to hospital in 1916 he found he could not lift his leg high enough to get on to the curb and had fallen and hurt himself. X-ray examination at the hospital showed sequestrum of the Great Trochanter, and a fracture of the neck of the femur. The Board stated that they had not sufficient evidence on which to determine whether or not the hip condition was connected with the War. The case was accordingly referred to Ministry headquarters and it was decided to make a provisional award of pension while inquiries were being made with a view to verifying the accidents on service. These inquiries were necessary in the absence of any record of ill-health or hospital treatment during service. No further information could however be obtained and it was decided after consultation with one of our principal medical officers that, though the sequestrum might have been separated by the alleged accident in France in 1916, the fracture of the femur was to be regarded as due to the accident after discharge on the day before the admission to the Middlesex Hospital. The case therefore fell to be assessed on the injury to Great Trochanter only, and this was assessed at 1 per cent. permanent."
I went on to point out to the hon. and gallant Member that it was not a case of assessment for injury which was accepted by the Ministry, and that after careful consideration it was decided that only a small part of the injury was due to War service, and the greater part was due to the accident which had taken place. That was the whole case. It was not a question of reduction of assessment, but of whether the man was entitled to a pension for a larger amount or not, and the Ministry in those days had no appeal tribunals, but on its own responsibility, and after having the whole case before it, decided that the major part of the injury was not due to war service at all. The hon. and gallant Member, when he was quoting the case, said that at any rate the whole injury was accepted by the board as due to war service, but I am afraid that he was in error there.
:I said all the evidence was before the medical board.
:I am talking about the board, and the hon. and gallant Member said it was accepted by the board as due to the War. I am sorry to have to contradict that statement, because the board, having to state whether it was attributable to, or aggravated by, war service, stated that, in its opinion, it was impossible to say at present. I turn from that case to what the hon. and gallant Member said about the appeal tribunals, and I must say that I think he was in error about that, because he said that when a man's time was out of date, the Ministry said so, and sent that fact before the appeal tribunal, and therefore prejudiced the case. Well, it is true that we inform the tribunal, and that is what we are bound to do. Under the law we are bound to call the attention of the tribunal to the fact that the appeal is out of date, but it is then the part of the tribunal, over whom we have no control, to say whether they will hear the case or not, and the hon. and gallant Member's statement, that the case is prejudiced with the tribunal by our information, is, I think, rather stretching language. It is entirely dependent on the tribunal, with whom the Ministry has nothing whatever to do, as to whether or not it should hear a case. The hon. and gallant Member went on to quote other cases, but obviously we do not carry a lot of cases in our heads, and we cannot say what they were. But I was rather surprised at another statement that he made, and that was when he read out a statement to the effect that a man with a provisional award was going to be examined by a board again, and that four weeks before he was due to be examined he would be summoned, but if he did not receive a summons, he must write to his area officer. I should have thought that that was done with the best intentions in the world towards the pen- sioner, and that the notice telling him to go for examination was an additional safeguard, so that he should be able to be called up and examined by the board at the right time.
I am afraid I have devoted too long to these questions, and I hope I may be allowed now to proceed with the task which my right hon. Friend set me before he sat down, the task of referring to the medical side of the Ministry's work. As soon as I went to the Ministry, I tried to learn all that I could about the different branches of it, and I was immensely taken with the medical side of it, not because I have the slightest medical knowledge, but it seemed to me that that had been one of the pivotal branches of the pensions administration ever since it was first established. Broadly speaking, the medical service divides itself into two essentially different types of work. The first is the medical treatment of war disabilities, and the second is the examination and certification of the pensioners and claimants to pension. I think I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the work of the medical and surgical branch of the Ministry has been one of the most wonderful achievements of the War. The task which had to be faced in 1917, when the Pensions Ministry was set up, was one entirely without precedent. To medical science the War was as revolutionary an experience as it was to the science of warfare, and the bare magnitude of the demands made on medical science created by the War was completely without precedent. Fresh problems arose on a scale that was absolutely unknown, and it is not too much to say that the medical profession had to mobilise all its resources and all its skill in order to grapple with the many problems arising out of the War. I must say that the way in which the medical profession met that demand will always, I think, be a lasting memorial to their skill and science, and there are many men walking about now who, I am sure, would bear willing testimony to that memorial.
Up till that time public provision for the treatment of injury or disease among the people of this country had been limited entirely to treatment by the general practitioner, with the assistance of the National Health Insurance Act, and also to the facilities that were available in civil hospitals. It was very soon obvious, after the Ministry was formed, and when the casualties and sicknesses were doubling, and trebling, and quadrupling, that the system then obtaining was hopelessly inadequate. There were two reasons for that. The first was that the normal civil facilities for treatment were totally inadequate to deal with certain kinds of ailment or injury thrown up by the War, because they were of a character which was very rarely met with in civil experience, and the second reason was that even those kinds of disability, or ailment, or injury which were normal to civil life or in certain localities were occurring in the War in such numbers as to be altogether beyond the capacity of the civil institutions which were available. So Parliament put it upon the Ministry of Pensions to make provision in order to remedy that inadequacy, and the policy of the Ministry has always from the beginning been steadily directed towards that end. I believe that by general consent the medical branch has been successful.
The policy has taken two forms: on the one hand, the Ministry had to provide special methods, and sometimes entirely new methods, of treatment applicable to large numbers of cases caused by the War, cases which were entirely due to the War, and were rarely known among the civil population. Also, they had to provide accommodation for cases of the type which the ordinary medical facilities met, but they had to do it so that the man who had been injured in the War should not have to wait for accommodation, which, unfortunately, as everybody knows, is sometimes the case in large centres at the present time; The Ministry's method of treatment has taken two forms. There was the in-patient treatment, which was mainly in hospitals provided, owned and controlled by the Ministry itself, but partly also in hospitals provided by voluntary contributions, and to a less extent in the ordinary civil hospitals up and down the country. Alongside the hospital accommodation, the in-patient treatment, has been the out-patient provision at the clinics of the Ministry, which supplements the out-patient departments of civil hospitals as well as of the Ministry's own hospitals. At one time, the Ministry had as many as 113 hospitals and 650 clinics, and at the same time that these were instituted they were entirely a new feature in public medicine.
As treatment inevitably was most needed in the case of wounds and injuries —I think something like four out of every 10 were cases of wound or injury—it was seen at a very early date that there was overwhelming necessity for supplementing both the military and the civil hospital accommodation for the treatment of men who had been discharged for injuries, and this treatment under the Ministry did not stop short, as it does so often in the case of civil hospitals, at operative or other immediate treatment, because the medical branch of the Ministry aimed at something further than that, and decided to include —and I think the Committee will think they were right—the whole range of what is known as orthopaedic treatment. That, I understand, is the process of restoring nerve and muscle to the injured part after the immediate operative or other treatment has been carried out. That meant the establishment of massage and electrical treatment. It also meant the provision of curative workshops, which were attached to the surgical hospitals, at which the more severe cases, by exercising the injured limb, can recover as fully as possible the use of that limb. The Ministry were running, not in addition to their hospitals, but in among the 113 hospitals I have mentioned, 15 orthopaedic hospitals of their own and 60 clinics in which supplementary orthopaedic treatment was given. This class of case has, on the whole, yielded better results than almost any other. In the course of nature, these numbers are diminishing, and at the present time the Ministry is operating eight hospitals for this purpose and 44 . clinics where massage and other forms of treatment for cases of injury are given.
One of the most difficult classes of case we have had to deal with were those known as neurasthenia cases. Before dealing with them, however, I would wish to refer to the unfortunate case of those men who have lost their reason because of war service. I think it is a very cruel thing to the relatives of those men if they are described, as I have seen them described sometimes, as pauper lunatics. It is a cruel thing and causes considerable pain to their relatives, and I would submit to the Committee that it is entirely unjustifiable, It is perfectly true that they have to be, and are, shut up in county asylums, but it is the law of the land that, if an individual is certified as insane, that individual has to be shut up. If any hon. Member of this House were certified, medically, as being insane, he would certainly have to be shut up, but, at the same time, I think his relatives would see to it that he was treated as a private patient. That is precisely what the State does for these ex-service men. It insists upon, and pays for, their being treated as private patients, and although it has been argued that the Ministry should itself have supplied the asylums to which these men could have been sent, I think there were very cogent arguments against it. In the first place, there was the difficulty of the sub-division of these hospitals, but there was a much stronger reason than any other, which was that the relatives of the men themselves strongly objected to their being removed to any distance from their homes.
8.0 P.M.
That was the strongest argument, and, in my judgment, would have been sufficient to justify the Ministry in not providing these hospitals. There is a good deal of confusion, as I understand, between what is called neurasthenia and mental disease. Of course, neurasthenia is an exceedingly difficult subject to deal with, but successive Ministries of Pensions, on the advice of their medical experts, not only inside the Ministry, but outside as well, have paid special attention to cases of nervous and mental trouble, and no pains or expense have been spared to get a man back to a normal condition. But one of the things on which the experts are, I think, all agreed, is that the best cure for any case like that is to get a man back to his normal life and normal occupation as soon as you possibly can. Naturally, of course, there is a considerable amount of sympathy with a man who is suffering from nervous disorder almost approaching mental disease. The great danger is that you may turn a man into a case that is to be certified when it need not really be so, and the best attempts have been made to get these men back into their normal conditions of life again, so that they may become happy individuals of the community once more.
I am not going into all the different types, but there is the ordinary type of case commonly known as shell-shock. I think we have all seen men who have unfortunately suffered in that way, or, it may be, men merely suffering from nervous weakness, which was developed during the War. The Ministry have had, in the past, 20 neurological hospitals, and 48 clinics for this purpose. But the Ministry was confronted with considerable difficulty in this connection, because they had to draw very largely on those members of the medical profession who had given special study to this particular disease, and, in addition, they have had to train a large number of specialists of their own in order to grapple with the cases. On the whole, this has all been very successful. The treatment has been successful, and a large number of men have been, what I may call, handled in time and restored to their normal condition. On the other hand, we get some cases of very serious nervous trouble and disorder. The Ministry goes to extremes to prevent the necessity of certifying a man. If you certify a man, he has to be shut) up in an asylum, and therefore the Ministry goes to the extremest possible length so as not to certify them, and we have several establishments to deal with what I may call border-line cases. The largest one is at Ewell, and on the whole the treatment has been successful in a great many cases. Some, of course, have not responded, and they, unfortunately, have to be certified. But, on the whole, we have been exceedingly successful. We go a little further, and we have got two establishments for certified cases, one in the north and one in the south, where selected eases are sent by agreement with the medical officers of the Board of Control. Unfortunately, we have that objection to which I referred before, that some of the most suitable cases are not allowed to go to those establishments, because their relations strongly object to their being removed from their own neighbourhood, and, therefore, some of the most likely cases have not been given this treatment. It is early days to say whether the experiment is going to be a success or not, but certainly, up to date, it would not justify any considerable extension of its operation.
I want to deal very briefly with the question of tuberculosis which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. As he knows, it has been already settled to deal with this question in conjunction with the Ministry of Health, and arrangements were made for training after a man had been through his ordinary course of sanatorium treatment. I fear that has not been quite the success it was hoped it would be. The Ministry has no power whatever to retain a man against his will, and one can quite understand that a man, having finished his course of sanatorium treatment, and feeling probably better than he has felt for years, does not care to stay away from his family for an extra year to complete his training. Therefore, on the whole that has not been quite as successful as it was hoped it would be. But further efforts are being made in another direction, in conjunction with the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Labour, with the object that when a man is going to be discharged after concluding his course of sanatorium treatment or training, the medical officer of health of the locality and the Employment Exchange manage' are notified, so that when the man does come back every effort is made to get him a job or some work, and, if necessary, more suitable habitation.
In addition to that, the Ministry of Pensions have been enabled to provide special rates of pensions for the tuberculous, following a course of sanatorium treatment or training, of such an amount as will remove all anxiety from the man as to what he is to live on while he is endeavouring to get work. There is the further point, that at any time a tuberculosis officer certifies that the treatment, incapacitating from work, is necessary, the Ministry pay allowances at the maximum rate allowable by the Warrant, even if that treatment only take the form of treatment at a dispensary or at home. In fact, the Ministry are spending something like £2,000,000 a year on these allowances for the tuberculous. The present position of the medical branch, as of all other branches of the Ministry's work, is inevitably for the work to diminish with the lapse of time.
:I understand the Employment Exchanges are going to play some part in getting employment for these men. Could the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether there is any evidence as to any demand through the Employ- ment Exchanges for the labour of men who are suffering from tuberculosis?
:I will certainly find out for the hon. Gentleman; I could not tell him off-hand.
:Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it likely that Employment Exchanges are going to be successful in finding work for them?
:One does not think that anybody is going to an Employment Exchange and say, "I want a tuberculous man for this job," but I think the Employment Exchanges can do their best to find employment in some suitable job for these men, and that employers would not refuse to have them.
:But there are thousands of fit men going to the Employment Exchanges, and if they cannot get employment, how can tuberculous men get employment?
:I will endeavour to find out, but I must point out that the Employment Exchanges do not come under our Department, and I cannot, really, be expected to know all about them. I was referring to the volume of the medical work. Taking the day census of March, 1922, it gave 119,000 in-patients and out-patients. The day census of March, 1925, gave 40,600 cases only. Consequently, the costs are falling, and that is practically entirely due to decreased payment for hospital treatment. That at once presents a very difficult problem for the Ministry. As you get fewer patients, obviously it is difficult to keep your hospitals open, and fully staffed. But you must keep a certain number of institutions in different parts of the country at convenient centres, so that the men can have the attention they ought to have. The general policy has been to concentrate the men in the larger hospitals, and to close the smaller ones. I do not say they are all closed. Sometimes it may be more convenient and satisfactory to keep open a smaller hospital, but, as a general rule, the policy has been to close the smaller ones and occupy the larger ones. Even so there are difficulties. The demand for accommodation is not constant, and, obviously, it is quite useless, if you have a large influx of men to be treated for neurasthenia, to send them to some hospital where they go in for surgical treatment. Therefore, in every hospital it is necessary to keep a considerable reserve of spare beds, and also for the reason that you must not keep men waiting. On the whole, there is a reserve of accommodation of about 10 to 15 per cent. in excess of the beds occupied at any time. The same thing applies to out-patient treatment. At the present time we have 505 clinics, which practically serve the purpose of the outpatient department of a hospital, in so far as, in addition to general medical practitioners in attendance, there are specialists also available, and the Ministry still provides for home treatment.
Before leaving that subject, I must deal with a point which has been continually raised in Parliament, and has been the subject of remarks outside, and that is the question of what is called treatment allowances. I think these questions are generally asked because of a profound misunderstanding as to what these treatment allowances are. First of all, I would like to say exactly what they are. Article 6 of the Warrant, under which these allowances are paid, which was started in 1917, and has been in existence ever since, was intended to do what was done by the War Office and Chelsea Hospital in certain cases of illness, but on a more generous scale. The object of the Ministry obviously was, in the interest of the man and of the State, to get him well as soon as possible, and, in order to do so, to induce him to take up certain treatment which would accelerate his recovery. Under Article 6, the State provided a special rate of allowance actually in excess of the maximum amount he could draw under the Warrant as pension if he was prepared to undergo the course of treatment, which, at the same time, prevented him from supporting his family while taking it. In other words, it really was a special inducement to get him to take this particular course of treatment. Originally this allowance was generally paid to a man taking the course of in-patient treatment; but, obviously, the exigencies of the War were such, that the hospitals and the medical professions were heavily called upon, and it was unfair to say to a man that he could only have this in-patient treatment when he went into a hospital, and when, probably, there was no accommodation for him. Therefore a specific course of treatment was ordered which was carried out.
The obvious intention of the Warrant was thus clearly to make allowances available only on a quite special occasion, but I am afraid, partly owing to the form in which the Medical Certificate required for the grant of allowances is drawn, a misunderstanding has arisen and the demand is made that the allowances payble under Article 6 should be paid whenever the man can be certified by a private doctor to be unable to work because of his disability. The Warrant, however, does not support this. The Warrant quite clearly says that the allowances are only payable where, in consequence of the course of treatment, the man will be unable to support himself and his family. In other words, the Warrant intends the allowance to be an administrative act giving the man a special allowance for a special occasion. The demand that is made would convert the allowance into a sort of war sickness benefit like the automatic benefit under the Health Insurance Act, and would fundamentally affect the basis of the whole system.
Pension or allowance itself is the average compensation for the disablement sustained, and the Committee should really see how far the request that has been put forward would take them. A very large number of pensioners are for the greater part of the year fully able to work at their ordinary occupations and are able to earn a normal wage. If you were to pay benefit in the form of treatment allowances whenever the man was unable to work, you would have to alter the pension system. That is to say, you would pay him no pension when he was able to work, but pay him full pension when he was not able to work. I cannot see any Minister of Pensions—and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman opposite would not get up at this box, and say that we should adopt the system whereby a man, as it were, lost his pension only to recover it when he was unable to work. Whatever might be said in favour of such a system of war compensation, it has not, in fact, been adopted by this country or by any other country at any time in its history. It would be extraordinarily difficult to work, because it would require an army of doctors and sick visitors, and there would be endless dis- agreement between them and the private doctors. At this stage the Minister cannot completely upset his whole system of war compensation which has now been running for eight years. One can understand that a time when unemployment is as serious as it has been during the last three or four years that the very high rate of allowances payable under Article 6 must create a constant and very serious difficulty to the Ministry. The average rate of allowance under Article 6 for a man, wife and two children is £3 3s. 6d. a week. I can quite understand that a man feels it a hardship when he is refused an allowance of this kind to which he thinks he is entitled, but the Ministry doctors are in a difficult position. I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite himself saw the difficulty about this, but if anything can be done to make this system of allowances under Article 6 more intelligible to pensioners and to improve its workings within the intention of the Warrant itself, my right hon. Friend intends to do it.
I shall not detain the Committee any longer, except to say that there is a slight increase in the Estimate for artificial limbs. I think no one will grumble at that. Anyone who sees these artificial limbs will believe that the Ministry is at least keeping pace with the times. I myself believe that we have got a better system than in any other country. The extra cost is due entirely to the fact that we are replacing the old heavy limb by a lighter one. If, however, it costs more at present the limb will last longer, and, at any rate, the men are finding the lighter limb is a far greater comfort than was the heavier one, and they appreciate that fact. I want to say that I do not think, in view of the work of the medical side of the Ministry of Pensions, that any reasonable person would object to the increase of expenditure on the grounds I put forward. We have spent upwards of £60,000,000 in medical treatment alone, and there has been an aggregate of 1,750,000 cases. I think that is a very high achievement on the part of the medical branch of the Ministry. I think we really owe a very great debt of gratitude for the organisation which they have framed. There was wonderful courage and endurance shown in the firing line, and equal courage and endurance has been shown in setting up this great organisation for the benefit of injured and wounded ex-service men. I do not know that they have got the credit due, not because people did toot appreciate the work done, but because the magnitude of it was not quite understood. I am very glad to have had this opportunity of saying this much for them—of saying what they would never say for themselves —that they have carried out a very difficult and noble task in a way which should earn the gratitude of the whole nation.
:We have listened with very great interest to the story which has been unfolded by the Parliamentary Secretary as to the valuable work of the medical side of the Ministry of Pensions. I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him in his most interesting narrative, because I want to get back to the earlier discussion which was interrupted—if I may say so— by his speech. Perhaps it is not altogether surprising that he sought to attract the. attention of the Committee from the discussion on which the Committee was engaged before he intervened, because it is somewhat significant that with the single exception of my right hon. Friend the ex-Minister of Pensions-remembering his own past at the Ministry of Pensions—not a single speech from any side of the Committee has been made in support of the position of the Minister. Every speech, at all events on this side of the Committee, was in favour of a Committee of Inquiry or a Select Committee. I submit that the somewhat complacent story of the Minister was rudely shattered by the speeches which we have heard this evening. Several hon. Members have impressed the Committee by the true and most human statements they made about the trials and hardships which have come to their own particular notice. Therefore I wish to join in the chorus raised in favour of either a Committee of Inquiry or a Select Committee in order that the administration and Royal warrants may be further inquired into. It is not merely a question of more sympathetic administration. We can all pay a tribute to the sympathetic attitude of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary in dealing with these matters. Whenever we approach them we are always received with the greatest courtesy, and our cases are considered with the greatest sympathy, but we are told, "According to the law, according to the warrant, my hands are tied. I cannot do this, I cannot do the other." On their own showing, therefore, there is good reason why, after all these years of administration of the warrants as they exist, there should be a thorough inquiry and investigation as to how far the machine is working satisfactorily. No doubt in the great majority of cases there is a record of good work, but there is a percentage of cases, whether it be five, 10, or 20 per cent., where there is a feeling that injustice is being done, and that is what we wish to remove.
Every member comes up against these cases personally, cases where, to the lay mind, a real hardship is being done; and yet when we take them to the Minister we are told that under the existing regulations it is impossible for him to act otherwise than he has done. This applies particularly to final awards and the seven years' limit. The Minister referred to the question of the correction of errors I hope the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister may be willing, pending a committee of inquiry, to extend the powers which they have so as to correct those errors which undoubtedly do creep in. If only they would use their powers more sympathetically and more generously, this percentage of cases of injustice and grievance would be considerably reduced. I would like to refer to the case mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury) when he said of these time limit cases that they were almost condemned in advance by the instructions which were sent from the Ministry. The Parliamentary Secretary, replying just now, said the Ministry were only carrying out their statutory duties in pointing out to the tribunal that a particular case was out of time and therefore should be resisted.
:The hon. Member is not quite fair in saying that the Ministry point out that the case is out of time, and therefore has to be resisted. The Ministry merely point out that the appeal is cut of time. It is then for the tribunal to decide for itself whether it will hear it or not. We merely point out that it is out of time. We do not say it has got to be resisted.
:I am glad the Minister has made that statement, but it is entirely at variance with the letter quoted by the hon. Member for West Salford, which I have in my hand. This letter says in reply to an applicant whose case was out of time:
"I am, however, bound to point out that if, notwithstanding the grounds alleged by you, the tribunal are satisfied that the appeal must be ruled to be out of time, they will have no option but to disallow it on those grounds."
:I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but the position is this. The tribunal have the option of hearing that appeal if they think there was good ground for its being out of date. We do not say to them, "You are not to hear this case because it is out of date"; but it is only fair to tell the man, if he; insists on going before the tribunal, that there is the possibility that the tribunal may say, "You are out of date." That is the only object of that notice.
:I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary. We only want to get at the actual facts. What he has just said confirms the impression that most of us have gathered from our own experience. If the appellant cannot show that he was out of the country, or in an asylum, or for some other reason beyond his control had no opportunity to appeal, then he is ruled out of court because his application is out of time. In actual fact the reasons which enable a man to show that he ought not to be ruled out are so very few that the appeals which are allowed are hardly worth having. Appellants find that unless they can show some most exceptional reason why they did not appeal they are ruled out on the ground of time.
May I fortify my contention by quoting a case that came within my own knowledge? It was that of a man who went out to the War and was sent home for munition work in 1918. He had been blown up, and had had one or two casualties, but he recovered—came back to munition work—got his old job back—made no appeal—put in no claim—went on for some years. Then he had to change his job because his health failed him, but, like so many others, he preferred to be independent as long as he had a job, and he did not appeal, he did not ask for a board and he made no claim. Time went on, until his disability, which his doctor told him was due to having been blown up overseas, got so bad that he could not carry on his work. Then he put in a claim for pension, but it was a week or 10 days or a fortnight beyond the seven years' limit, and he was turned down by the Ministry, and now he is without any pension and without any hearing, because of the expiration of the seven years' limit. As long as cases of this kind can occur, there is good ground for appointing a committee of inquiry, so that the whole question may be reviewed. Does the Parliamentary Secretary consider that the work done under the present Warrants is so entirely satisfactory that there is no reason for any change at all? I cannot think that either he or the Minister would contend that. In view of the appeals that have been made from all quarters of the House, I hope the Government, whatever they may do this evening, may see their way to grant this inquiry into the working not merely of the administration, which is within their own hands, but into the working of the Warrants, which tie their hands when they want to be sympathetic.
Another point I wish to put to the Parliamentary Secretary concerns the difficulties which claimants have when before the appeal tribunal. Widows, and even ex-service men themselves, who sometimes have not had the best education and are not accustomed to appear before committees or Courts, are seriously handicapped when they attend before an appeal tribunal, unless they can have someone to put their case for them. We are told that, in the first place, this is a matter for the Lord Chancellor. Of course that is correct, but I submit that the Ministry can make representations to the Lord Chancellor on this point, and they might restore the procedure in vogue before the Act of 1921, when local pension committees used to depute one of their number, or pay an advocate, to go with a claimant before the appeal tribunal so that his case might be properly presented. We are told the appeal tribunals are most sympathetic when dealing with these cases. I do not doubt the good intentions of appeal tribunals, but it has been my lot, on more than one occasion, to accompany an ex-service man before a tribunal. I do not consider that I am a particularly nervous person, but I confess that I was not altogether too comfortable when before that tribunal, I did not feel altogether easy when trying to present the case of that ex-service man. I think those of us who are accustomed to meetings and committees do not realise how exceedingly nervous the average person, who seldom goes before a committee, feels when alone before a court such as an appeal tribunal. In the great majority of cases the widow, and even the ex-service man himself, is badly handicapped by not being: able to put the case as well as it ought to be put.
The court may be sympathetic, but from my experience of courts and of cases of ex-service men, I cannot believe that the strongest case for the appellant is brought out. Therefore, I do ask the Minister further to examine this point, because what the Lord Chancellor at present can do is very little. The appellant receives an intimation from Newcastle or Leeds or somewhere else that he is expected to appear there at a certain time. He does not write to the Lord Chancellor and say, "Please, can you provide me with some assistance in submitting my case?", and if he did I do not suppose he would get a sympathetic or satisfactory reply. The appellant has to go to the tribunal, many miles away from his home, he is all alone, and he appears before this court which is all strange to him and somewhat awe-inspiring. If an appellant asks the court for assistance, I do not know that there is any assistance that can be given, and in the majority of cases the. appellant is too frightened even to make the request. Therefore I submit that the present machinery does not work in a way to help the appellant. I am satisfied from my own experience that their cases are not heard to the fullest extent. One other point I want to refer to is the granting of pensions to the dependants of ex-service men particularly in the case of the apprentice son of a widowed mother. If the wage of the apprentice amounts to 10s. then the pension is withdrawn.
I had a case sent me the other day where a widow had apprenticed her son to engineering, and he started at 9s. a week, and she then was receiving a pension of 10s. a week from the pension authority, although the son had turned 14 years of age. He was to receive this pension as long as his wages were 10s. a week or less. The other day the widow was notified that the boy's wages would be increased to 10s. 6d. per week, and then the Pension authority was instructed to stop the pension altogether. As a matter of fact, the boy did not actually get 10s. 6d. per week, because, although the nominal wage was 10s. 6d., there were deductions for insurance and other charges, so that the amount he actually received was less than 10s. a week. I have in my possession a certificate showing that this boy's average wage for over 20 weeks was 9s. 5d. per week, and yet acting on instructions from the regional director this pension was stopped.
The result of this was that the boy for one week got 9s. 6d. wages and 10s. pension, and because his wage was raised to 10s. 6d. the widow had to sacrifice her pension, and the income of that home was reduced from 19s. 6d. per week to 10s. 6d. I submit that that is a case of real hardship. That is not an isolated case, and I ask that a little more sympathy may be brought into this administration. If we are going to be told that it is beyond the power of the Minister to do this under existing Regulations, then I think it is quite time we had a Select Committee to inquire into the actual working of these particular Regulations.
I hope after the appeals which have been made that the Government will be willing to reconsider the matter in order to remove this sense of hardship which is irritating so many people at the present time. When there is so much dissatisfaction with what is being done by the Ministry of Pensions, it is surely in their own interests not to sanction any longer the continuation of these irritating Regulations which may not mean much in themselves, but which mean a good deal to those who have to suffer a loss of their pensions on that account. I hope a more humane spirit may be aroused in the heart of the Government, so that they will have a sympathetic regard to appeals made to the Minister of Pensions from all parts of the House.
:Sympathy has been expressed for the ex-service men by hon. Members in every quarter of the House irrespective of party and on political platforms outside, and if all those expressions of sympathy were fully realised by the Ministry of Pensions they would very soon sweep away the injustice to ex-service men of which we complain. I regard the Minister of Pensions and his administration as the servants of this House, and if the administration is bad, then this House is responsible. Until we recognise that responsibility in season and out of season on these benches irrespective of party, and demand justice for the ex-service men, he will still continue to be made the play of the party politicians. I recognise that the position of the Minister of Pensions is a very difficult one.
I recognise that after the War and the many diseases and wounds which were inflicted upon our unfortunate soldiers, that difficulties were bound to arise in administration and changes would be required. I think the time has come, in view of the complaints we have had here from hon. Members on both sides of the House, when we ought to have a full and impartial inquiry, and endeavour to straighten out some of the complaints we have heard here to-night. I am confident that I could put a sufficient number of cases before the House that no Member of this House would be willing to ignore.
My intention is to draw attention to a very deserving class who have been entirely neglected, and I do not think any other speaker has raised this question. I consider that the class I am now going to mention are as much entitled to a pension as any other class which is now drawing a pension. May I be permitted to put the point of view of pensions for the unfortunate widows and the unfortunate orphans, some of whom, to the disgrace of this nation, are now inside our workhouses. I am not now complaining about the Pensions Minister because, whether it was a Tory, a Labour or a Liberal Minister of Pensions, if we are in earnest we can change the position, and everyone of us ought to carry the responsibility and not try to place it on the shoulders of the Minister of Pensions. Whether in the past it has been a Tory, Liberal or a Labour Minister of Pensions, this class I refer to has been treated in the same way, I do not think there is any sound argument which can be brought against the claim for a pension for the class I am alluding to.
At the beginning of the War, in 1914, there is no doubt at all that the appeal was made to the young men. Lads from 16 to 18 years of age joined up very readily, and these young men went and fought through the War. Some of them came back. Unfortunately, many of them did not come back, but some of them who came back were wounded and disabled, and they married. I should have thought that that would have been quite a natural thing for them to do, but evidently, up to the present time, we have taken up the attitude that, when these young men joined the Army, what joined the Army was only a piece of humanity that could handle a gun and a bayonet and stop a bullet. When, however, these young men joined the Army, they did so with all the potentialities of young men. They fought through the War, and when they came back we all admired the little lassie that had waited, hoping for their return; and even if they were wounded, even if they were deformed, we still more admired her for throwing in her lot and helping to brighten the man's life after the fearful ravages of war.
Naturally, in some cases, children were born, and who does not love little children? Even a wounded soldier, I believe, loves to see a child romping through his house. But if he passes away because of his wounds, because of disabilities contracted during the War, a grateful country says, " He had no right to marry." Imagine what it is to gather together a little home, it may be only a single apartment. No one can tell the dreams of that little girl as she gathered together the little things to furnish that single apartment. She probably thought of the day when she would hear the prattling of children, and the pattering of their merry little feet on the floor. But that is life. The brave fellow comes home; he fought for his country, and she throws in her lot with him. Then the disease, or whatever was the cause of his disability, takes him oft to an early grave, and the only prospect for her and her children is the workhouse.
I do not want to harrow the feelings of the Committee by reading letters, although I could read some from my own constituents. I would rather base my claim on the ground of reason. Why do you pay a pension? There are two reasons. In the first place, you pay a pension because the individual has been reduced below the condition of a normally healthy person; and, secondly, you pay a pension because the expectation of life has been cut short. The widows and orphans for whom I am pleading come under both of these categories. Had it not been for the War, had that young man not fought in the War and been wounded and disabled, he would not have been reduced below the expectation of a normal healthy life, and, consequently, the War is responsible, and his dependants are entitled to a pension. No one can give an answer to that argument; there is no answer. You may tell me we are doing better than other countries, and I am proud of it, but that is no reason why we should allow injustice to exist. I am told the burden will be too great. That is nonsense; I do not believe it. I never think the burden is too great if you are doing justice to an individual whom you have promised to look after when he came back from the War.
I have a case now which shows how necessary it is that there should be some investigation into the administration. A man was wounded twice. He was wounded in 1915, he was discharged and came home, got better again, and went to work in the mines. He might never have been called up again to fight, but he had the boldness, or patriotism, as some might say, to offer his services again in 1917. He was wounded again; and he was still more bold, in 1919, to marry after he got his disability. Now the. trouble is that he has a family and the Ministry refuse to pay them a pension because of a dispute as to whether his disability is due to his first wound or his second. Could anything be more ridiculous or absurd, in the case of a man who has faced the terrors of Hell on the battlefields of France and Flanders, and to whom the nation has promised that he will be looked after. I ask the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to face the proposal I have put before the Committee. The young men joined the Army, they fought through the War, they have been reduced, because of disease or wounds, below the normal physical condition of a healthy person, and, in the cases where they have died, the expectation of life has been cut short. They have left dependants, and I challenge the Minimter, or any Member of the House, to say that such an individual has not earned his pension in the same way as any other individual who is drawing a pension at the present time.
I do not want to say this, but I must. We hear a great deal about morality. I say that this House, if it refuses to accept the responsibility of widows and children, is deliberately telling those ex-service men that they have to patronise the brothels in the towns and cities of our country. We must make up our minds that these were normal, healthy men, with all the potentialities of men, and the longings of men. I am not afraid of the voters in the country or the taxpayers, but I am really afraid of this callousness and indifference and seeking for gain by exploiting the ex-service man on the various platforms throughout the length and breadth of this land. If the Regulations are bad, we can alter them. If new Regulations are wanted to make the administration better, the House of Commons ought to be the master and alter them, and I appeal to every Member of the House to see to it that, when we have Regulations and administration, we always mix it a little with the milk of human kindness. I hope, and I am sure, that every Member is with me in thinking that we should do our best for the ex-service man, and at least give some measure of recognition to the class of pensioners to whom I have referred.
:Anyone who addresses this Committee for the first time hopes and wishes to be able to contribute something from his own personal experience, and I am only venturing to intervene in this Debate because for five years, from 1920 to 1924, in my spare time, I presided as an additional president over a Pensions Appeal Tribunal. If I might, in a few words, try to give the result of that experience I should like to do so. The tribunal over which I presided was the entitlement tribunal. I had nothing to do with assessment, and I do not pretend to know anything about assessment appeals, but, speaking generally, so far as the entitlement tribunal was concerned, I personally found that one was more often dealing with cases of disablement by disease than disablement by wounds. It does not need a tribunal, as a rule, to decide whether a man who is suffering from a gunshot wound is entitled to a pension. It was rather in those cases where it was claimed that ordinary diseases which occur to civilians in ordinary life were either attributable to, or aggravated by, War service. One thing I am sure of as the result of my experience is that pension appeal tribunals have to allow far too many appeals. I have looked at the last 20 cases or so that actually came before the tribunal I was presiding over, and I find that out of those 20 cases no fewer than 13 appeals were allowed. That is an enormous percentage. I know it is higher than the average percentage of appeals, and no doubt there were special circumstances which do not make those 20 cases a typical average. Nevertheless, taking a percentage of even 30 or 40, which is normal, it is far too high a percentage to have to be allowed by the appeal tribunal. As a matter of curiosity I looked to-day to see how the figures compared, not only with regard to those 20 cases but with regard to the whole cases of both officers and men during the six months when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. Roberts) was in charge of the Pensions Ministry, and the corresponding period when my right hon. Friend was previously Minister, and there is nothing in it. It happens that with regard to men, curiously enough, 4 per cent. more appeals had to be allowed during the time of the Labour Ministry than in the corresponding period when the Conservative Government were last in power, and with regard to officers, about 4 per cent. less, so that we may take it that there is nothing in it one way or the other. It is not a party question. To my mind, the three main factors which contribute to the wide difference between the decisions of the Ministry and the decisions of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal are these: first of all the Ministry decides on paper, and the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, like the Medical Board, upon which the Ministry founds its decisions, see the claimant face to face.
:Does my hon. friend say the Ministry alters the pension without seeing the man, because he makes a mistake there. The pension is assessed by the board, who see the man, and not by the Minister, exactly the same as the appeal tribunal.
:That is what I was saying, that the board and the tribunal see the man, but the decision is given, on what the board report, by someone who has not necessarily seen the man at all.
:I really must get this point clear. My hon. Friend says the board assess a man at a certain amount.
:I was not talking about assessment of amount. I have never sat on an assessment appeal tribunal. I have only sat on an entitlement tribunal and I am talking about entitlement and nothing but entitlement. I am talking about whether or not a man is entitled to any pension at all; that is to say, whether his disability was either attributable to or aggravated by his war service. Aye or no, was that the fact? That is the function of the entitlement tribunal of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal. It cannot be contradicted that, speaking generally, the decision in the Ministry is given by someone who has not seen the appellant, whereas the original material upon which that decision is founded is given by a medical board which has seen him, and the ultimate decision given by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal is also given by some tribunal who are confronted with the appellant and hear the evidence he gives.
9.0 P.M.
Again referring, for the sake of argument, to the 20 cases whose actual records, notes of the hearing and so forth, I have looked up, I find that in the 13 appeals that were allowed, three only were decided on the précis itself without the necessity of hearing any evidence from the applicant. That is to say the tribunal came to a conclusion, on the facts stated in the précis, without any qualification whatever, that the appellant was entitled to have his claim allowed. The other 10 —and I think the proportion is about right on the average—turned on the impression made upon the tribunal by the veracity and the demeanour of the appellant himself in giving the circumstances of his claim, and it seems to me that in the nature of things it must be that a man has much more chance of making his case good before a tribunal to whom he can explain it than when he has to make it good to someone on paper. That, I think, is one of the underlying reasons for the high proportion of appeals which have to be allowed. The second is this: As in all matters of official routine, there is a tendency from time to time to lay down rules which, however applicable and however sound they may be with regard to the particular case in which they were first laid down, are inclined to be stretched and eventually to be applied to cases which were never contemplated at the time the ruling was laid down. If anyone wants a perfectly commonplace illustration of that let him remember the original Workmen's Compensation Act as it was after it had been judicially interpreted, and decision upon decision had been given, and let him consider what the state of the law was, say, five years from the time the Act was passed. That is an illustration of the way in which the interpretation of a new order can travel in a comparatively short space of time.
Arising out of that, the Committee has also to bear this in mind, that although the pensions appeal tribunal is final with regard to the individual case, yet any rulings that they may give have no binding effect on the Ministry, or indeed on any other branch of the tribunal. If I may illustrate that by a particular instance which constantly used to arise, there was a case which came up from time to time where a man suffering from some disease in civil life was admitted to have had it aggravated by war service. That was not disputed. It was not disputed also that he was still suffering from that disease. He got no better than the condition into which he had been reduced by the war service. "But," so the argument ran, "people in civil life get worse from that disease. It is not unnatural that the man should get worse from a disease of that sort. Therefore, although your condition has been worsened by war service, yet it is quite possible, even likely, that if you had remained a civilian, after two years' time or three years' time your condition would have arrived at the condition, in which you now are. Therefore, the aggravation has ceased to persist." With the greatest respect for the high authority, whoever he may be, who first propounded that theory, it seems to me to be sheer nonsense. You might just as well say that if you hit a man on the head with a hammer and he happens to have an unusually thin skull, you are only to compensate him for two years, because it is the habit of people in civil life to fall down and hit their heads on paving stones. Therefore you would say to this man, "You, with your unusually thin skull, might have done that." That particular ruling cropped up from time to time, and I understand that it is not entirely dead yet, from inquiries that I have made.
May I give one or two instances of the sort of thing to which I am referring when I say that rules may sometimes be stretched further than they were originally intended. Again, in connection with the aggravation of disabilities, some phrase like this will occur in the grounds for rejection:
There is sometimes, it seemed to me, an undue insistence on the absence of hospital records as confirmatory evidence that there was a disability, either caused by, or aggravated during, service. It is quite right to ask for evidence of hospital records in a proper case, but I call to mind a case where the issue was in regard to a man . who was a very stout soldier and had been a serving soldier for years, a regimental sergeant-major, who claimed that he suffered from, disordered action of the heart as a result of gassing. There was no doubt about the gassing. It was admitted as a casualty, but he had not been admitted to hospital. He stayed on duty and was mentioned in despatches for doing so.
Three months later, he got carbon monoxide poisoning from a charcoal fire in a dug-out and was invalided to the United Kingdom. He was kept three weeks in hospital. In the meantime he had been recommended for a commission. That recommendation took effect shortly after his discharge from hospital, but although he had been recommended for the commission with a view to his rejoining his battalion, his condition was such that he was never able to do anything but take charge of a prisoners of war camp for the rest of the War. It seemed to me that, apart from the absence of hospital record, that was as strong confirmatory evidence as anything could be in support of the proposition that there must have been something very seriously wrong with him as a result of gassing.
The same thing applies to that most difficult of questions, which was referred to by the right hon. Member for West Bromwich, the tuberculosis cases, where it is insisted that there shall be a continuous history suggestive of tuberculosis dating back to within a year of the date of demobilisation. The man who is in the greatest difficulty is the man who has had a series of ordinary colds, influenza and things of that sort, in regard to which, Somehow or other, he has managed to contrive that he should never be sent down to hospital. You can always get hospital records for the men who want to make a case. It is the man who has stuck to duty in respect of whom there is an absence of hospital records.
It is, of course, very easy to criticise, and it is more difficult to suggest a remedy. I hope I have already made it plain that I am not criticising the present Ministry in any way, because my experience on the Pensions Appeal Tribunal had come to an end before the present Government came into power. I heard with very great pleasure the Minister of Pensions say earlier in the Debate that he personally was undertaking a series of investigations. Arising out of that, may I make one or two suggestions, because I say at once that I am entirely against any idea of uprooting the system of pensions, of recasting it and, at this stage, creating chaos by introducing some new system. I cannot see what is the use of setting up a Select Committee unless its object be to recast the whole pensions system.
It seems to me to be at this stage, seven years from the institution of the pensions system, a perfect futility to suggest anything of the sort. My belief is that this question can be settled by improvements in the existing administration. If I may make this suggestion, apart altogether from the question of a generous use of the powers which are vested in the Minister to correct errors even if the Pensions Appeal Tribunal have decided against the claimant, may I suggest something of this sort, that if I were the Minister of Pensions I would raid the précis of appeals which were about to be heard. I have no doubt he does so. I should not wait until the cases had been turned down. I should be inclined to investigate the précis of cases which were coming before the Appeal Tribunal and investigate them with an independent medical man; if you like with one of the acknowledged medical authorities who sit upon the Pensions Appeal Tribunal. And I should not only do that, but I should be inclined from time to time at random to send for the person making the appeal, and, as it were, hear his case, and I should make it a matter for grave censure in the Department itself if I found that the grounds for rejection in any appreciable number of cases would not hold water. In other words, I should, as I am sure my right hon. Friend does, try to ensure by methods of inspection of that sort—as a commanding officer or a general officer inspecting pounces indiscriminately on unexpected points—that the statutory right to the benefit of the doubt was secured to every claimant. It is only in some such way as this that it can be ensured that the jot and tittle of departmental rulings does not prevail against the spirit of generosity in which all parties of this House wish to see the pension warrant administered.
:First of all I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for the Rusholme Division (Mr. Merriman) on his excellent, learned and clever maiden speech. It is possible that I shall differ from him on several of the points that he has made, but one in particular is the appointment of a Select Committee. As one who has mingled with ex-service men since 1917, and who has worked on their behalf in the old organisation as well as in the British Legion, I am glad to have the opportunity, even at this very late hour, of entering into this Debate, and I can say easily that I know the ex-service man and his faults equally as well as or perhaps better than the majority of Members in this House. I represent an industrial constituency and I live in that industrial constituency. I have been associated with ex-service men's clubs and branches of the Legion and I hold a position in seven counties in the Midlands as chairman of the British Legion at the present moment. So, naturally, I have come in contact with a very large number of cases.
We have heard this evening of Members of Parliament getting letters. I think that I could hold the record in that matter, because, whenever I have spoken in this House on the ex-service man's problem, I have not only been flooded with ex-service men's letters from my own constituency, but also with letters from ex-service men in many other constituencies dealing with cases which, no doubt, they probably tried on their own Members before they sent them on to me. Anyone who knows anything of the work of the British Legion will agree that the lot of the ex-service men has been made easier by that work. Look at it from the point of view of relief. We have been able, through the president of the organisation, Lord Haig, to realise very large sums of money, and we have been able to relieve a great deal of distress. We have also, on many occasions, had to fight the Minister of Pensions to obtain various concessions with regard to the problem of pensions, and I do not think that any Minister of Pensions, whether the late or the present Minister, can complain that the British Legion have been out to fight him exactly, but they have been out to help him.
But we who have spoken in this House before and passed pious resolutions believe that something should be done for these cases that has been mentioned this evening. I refer particularly to the seven years' limit and the final award. These have been dealt with in the most effective manner by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Fairfield Division of Liverpool (Major Cohen). We contend, so far as the time limit is concerned, that as the onus of proving that disability is due to or aggravated by military service is on the applicant, any time limit should be abolished. After all, if a man has to prove that that disability is due to war service, and it is not the Minister who has to prove it, the man should have the opportunity, whenever he feels that he is not as fit as he was before he entered the Army, of appealing for that which he is justly entitled. Many men to-day are walking about with bits of shrapnel in them, which at present are causing them no inconvenience whatever, and which the medical profession say it is far better to leave alone at the moment. But in two or three years' time what may be the effect of that metal in the bodies of such men? Therefore, I support what has been said in regard to the seven years' limit and also the final award.
But there is another matter to which I wish to draw attention, and which has been only casually mentioned this evening. That is the position of the ex-service man suffering from tubercular disease. 42,000 men are suffering from tubercular disease. Of that number only 2,000 are receiving in-patient treatment, which means that over 40,000 are either drawing their allowance or receiving outpatient treatment from hospitals. We consider that a man suffering from this disease is considerably handicapped in the industrial market. I was rather amused by one of the hon. Members opposite who asked whether the Labour Exchanges would be able to find a position for a man suffering from tubercular disease. We know that it is impossible; we know that there is only one solution to this problem. That is the setting up of village settlements. I saw a reply by the Minister of Pensions only quite recently to a Resolution on this subject, and his reply was that the matter of village settlements was an experiment. It is now over six years since the Armistice was signed, and we find ourselves still experimenting on this question. We have realised that this scheme of village settlements was the only way in which to deal with this particular question.
It has been my privilege to visit Hap-worth, in Cambridgeshire, and to see the work carried on under Dr. Barrie Jones. I am certain that if those Members of the House who are opposed to this scheme could have the opportunity of visiting that settlement their particular views would be considerably altered. We in the British Legion have quite recently taken Preston Hall, in Kent, as a village settlement for tubercular ex-service men, at considerable expense and considerable financial obligation. We hope that our example will be followed by the Government, and that they themselves will help us to set up, or set up by themselves, other village settlements which will cope with the large number of men suffering from this disease. The procedure is as follows: Men on arrival are placed in the sanatorium for observation, and in the more advanced cases stay in the sanatorium until they show signs of improvement. When a man is fit to work, he passes from the hospital to the training college, and is there taught a trade suitable to him. After the training is completed, men are transferred to the settlement, where they live with their wives and families and work at an occupation suitable to them, having been trained. They are in good surroundings, under medical supervision and receive trade union sates of wages. It may be information to the House to know that there were something like 55,000 men suffering from this disease for whom the Minister accepted responsibility. Of that number 15,000 have already gone. An Inter-Departmental Committee, presided over by Sir Montague Barlow in 1919, recommended the expenditure of £1,000,000 for this purpose of setting up village settlements. So far only £20,000 has been spent. I contend that huge sums of money are wasted every year upon sanatorium treatment. A man is sent away, has treatment in the sanatorium, gets better and goes back again to housing conditions which do not suit him, and work which does not suit him, and in a short period is as bad as he was before.
I want to draw the attention of the Committee to another class—that is the epileptics and chronic neurasthenics. There are at the present moment over 4,000 men suffering from epilepsy. You will agree, I think, with me that these men have very little chance of obtaining employment. Pensions are assessed by comparing disabled men with normal healthy men and assessing the pension on a medical basis. This quite meets the question, but not in these cases. I contend that in these two cases an exception should be made, and the pension be assessed on an economic basis. The Minister of Pensions proposes going through the country and seeing the various advisory councils and war pensions committees. I am certain he will meet with a warm reception. I wish we could instil into the Ministry the spirit that prevails amongst those war pension committees who acted for such a long time, in the good work that they carried on. The advisory committees were set up some 12 months ago. Resolutions passed by them went to the Central Advisory Committee, of which there has only been one meeting. The late Minister, in answer to a question in this House on 26th June last, stated that these councils will consider reports of various kinds upon the work of the Ministry and it will be open to them to make recommendations to him on matters of policy or administration. I happen to sit on the Midland Advisory Committee, and on the 6th May last they unanimously passed the following resolution: Legion who are working to help the Ministry in the administration of the work that the Minister is responsible for—and then so many months are allowed to elapse before they even get a reply to questions raised, well, you are knocking out the spirit of the voluntary worker and making him very dissatisfied and very disgruntled with the work of the Ministry. I trust the Ministry will be able to assure the House that in future advisory councils will certainly receive replies to their resolutions and at least a little more courtesy than they have done in the past.
I consider that there are other things that come also under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Pensions. There is the disabled man. I, of course, quite realise that that is a matter for the Minister of Labour. After all, those men were disabled as a result of War services. I think the Minister of Pensions should, jointly with the Minister of Labour, the same as he does with the Minister of Health in connection with the tubercular question, work with him in trying to find employment for the disabled men. My hon. Friend the Member for North Islington (Sir H. Cowan) was fortunate enough, in the Private Members' Ballot, to be able to present a Bill for the compulsory employment of disabled) men, the same Bill which I presented in the last Parliament, and which received a unanimous Second Reading in this House. Unfortunately, the day he chose was in the second week's holiday given us by the Government, so I presume that Bill will not be reached this Session. I would urge upon the Minister of Pensions, in conjunction with the Minister of Labour, to go into this question and see if something cannot be done for these disabled men before it is too late. I listened last night to a speech by the Prime Minister. It was a speech which I would support in every way, but I do object to economising on the expenditure on disabled ex-service men. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us when he replies to-night that it will be the decision of the Government to stabilise pensions if not for a further three years, for ever. The hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury) has referred to a remark made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when bringing in the Budget. Curiously enough I have made a note of the same thing. May I be permitted to read it? He referred to old age pensions as
:The hon. Member who has just spoken did not encourage intervention in this Debate by his suggestion of a very much increased correspondence. In spite of that possibility, I think it is very good to see the anxiety of hon. Members to express some of those things which they have been feeling so much during past months and years, as they have seen the condition of things among ex-service men. We are all agreed as to the kindly intention and the good wishes of Ministers and, indeed, of the officials generally. But many of us feel that there is something still very seriously wrong in many connections, and I strongly support the proposed Select Committee. I enjoyed very much the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Merriman) to-night. In many points I agree with him, but I did not agree with him in his criticism of the Select Committee. I do not think there need be radical changes made in the Royal Warrant. There may be only moderate changes required, but the result of these might be very important and useful. To get the collective wisdom of a Committee of this kind on these questions would be very useful to the Minister, and very desirable in the interests of ex-service men.
There is one point that ought to be considered by all tribunals which deal with ex-service men's cases, and that is in regard to the nature and degree of disability. I have found in many cases that the nature of a man's occupation is not taken into account. I remember a recent case I had of a man, a miner, who was shot in the back in such a way that he could not raise his arm above his head. In his employment he had to raise his arm above his head, and he was thus disabled for the purpose of following his ordinary work. Still, because he could use his arm and hand in a normal way— he could, for instance, have been a shopkeeper—he was considered to have less than 20 per cent. disability and there was no pension. There are many cases like that. We must consider what a man's occupation is, and his disability should be considered from that point of view. I have found that that is not the case. I would impress upon the Minister that some direction might be given to tribunals to attend to this.
Undoubtedly it is the case, in spite of all the sympathy expressed, that there are still to many purely technical grounds for the ruling out of pensions. The matter of time has been referred to. I quite agree with the last speaker, that we should abolish time limits altogether. His illustration of the shrapnel continuing in the body and liable to cause trouble later was an excellent one. Another illustration is that of men carrying on their work somehow and refusing to make any appeal until their condition gets so bad that attention had to be called to it, sometimes too late for a pension. Those are extremely important points. Throughout the whole of the pensions administration the penalty has been on the plucky man who has borne his condition to the last limit of time. The man who called early attention to his sufferings and made the most of them has scored all along the line. The hon. Member for Rusholme dealt with that point, and I would emphasise it, in regard to the medical history sheets. If a man is found to be suffering from tuberculosis, and there are no records of influenza or anything of that sort on his medical history sheet, considerable doubt is expressed as to whether his condition is due to war service. It is the same with other conditions. We are all familiar with the cases of gastric ulcer, cancer and cerebral hæmorrhage, which are practically all ruled out as impossible to be connected with war service. In many cases of gastric ulcer, it has followed digestive trouble arising from irregular feeding or faulty feeding during Army service. But if the man has carried on in spite of his indigestion, and has neither been in hospital nor reported it, it is not on his medical history sheet. He develops a gastric ulcer after he leaves the Service, and is told: "This is entirely unconnected with war service, and therefore we cannot give you anything." In regard to cerebral hæmorrhage, although it is very difficult from a medical point of view to connect that with war service, there is no doubt that the strain and anxiety and the various discomforts of Army life may have had a predisposing tendency in many cases. I do not see why in these cases we should not have a broader point of view instead of standing so much on technicality.
There is another point in regard to death certificates. The Ministry is very much inclined to stand by a technical death certificate. I had a case of a man who died after a long standing injury of the leg sustined in the War. There was an open sore. The man was in hospital a few weeks before death. He suddenly became very ill and died in a week. There had been a young locum tenens engaged in the case, and he put down the cause of death as intestinal paralysis which was the terminal condition. But to anyone familiar with medical matters at all, the whole case spoke of septicémia, blood poisoning, as the result of the injury to his leg. But because this young doctor had put intestinal paralysis on the death certificate—the actual and immediate but not the primary cause of death—this man's widow could not get a pension. There are many of these cases. It is very unfortunate that the Ministry stands on these technical points and does not take a broader view, and one more in the spirit of what the community feels in regard to these matters. I agree with some hon. Members that it is rather unfortunate that medical men are employés of the Ministry. It would have been much more satisfactory had they been independent of it, because there is a tendency, unconsciously, to feel that they are appearing for the Ministry of Pensions, and that it is the Ministry of Pensions versus the man. Anyone who has been to an Appeal Tribunal, and spoken for ex-service men, must have felt that sort of atmosphere on many occasions.
In regard to the tuberculous ex-service man, I agree with the last speaker, but I would like the Ministry also to consider the economic conditions of the men who are suffering from this disease. I am satisfied that there are many tuberculous ex-service men in our great cities who are not in-patients but are living in ordinary homes, following some kind of light employment or no employment at all, and who are not being fed and nourished as they should be. Unless they are well fed and nourished they will never make a fight against tuberculosis. I would remind the Ministry that this aspect of the question should be taken into consideration, and not merely the condition of the actual tubercular lesion. I think that course of action would be in full agreement with public opinion. I also agree with the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Robertson) as to the case of men who have married after leaving the Army. I think it unfortunate that the widows of such men and their children should be penalised. The men had all these potentialities—their virility gave them their value—and we are entitled to take full responsibility for its logical development. It is said that if many of the points we are urging were agreed to, the burden on the community would be too great. When I hear that said, I am reminded of the girl in a slum district of one of our Scottish towns who was carrying a child nearly as big as herself, and was obviously finding it difficult. A woman stopped her and asked, "Is your burden not too heavy for you, my dear? "The girl replied, with a bright smile, "This is no a burden; this is my wee brother." I think that is the spirit in which we should regard this question. The disabled and suffering ex-service man is our brother. He suffered for us and now he needs our assistance. I am sure the Ministry could go much further than it does and could be much more generous with the warm approval of public opinion. I hope the Government will accept the proposal for a Select Committee so that the Ministry may understand better what is in our minds and be helped to carry out—what we know they are anxious to—a sympathetic, humane and just treatment of the ex-service man.
:I think the spirit evinced in the story told by the last speaker is the spirit felt in every quarter of the House in respect to the proper consideration of those who have been broken in the War, as well as their dependants, who are in receipt of pensions. They are our responsibility as a result of the wonderful heroism displayed in the War, and I think it speaks well for this House and the country as a whole that the greatest experts of every political view agree on the basis of the system which at present obtains for dealing with pensions and the application of same. We know that there is some difficulty in the matter of the application of the pensions machinery. We must remember that it is the one machine in the State which is left to us as a relic of War-time construction. We must remember that every machine of that War construction period showed some quality that was not advantageous for the purpose for which the machine was intended. It has been impossible to make the pensions administration machinery as perfect as all sections of the House would like, and, in the result there have been sad cases such as have been enumerated to-day. It is well to remember, however, that this machine, with all its imperfections, has dealt with 2,500,000— if not more—men and women. We must remember that under the care of the Pensions Ministry there are more broken and disabled men than there are in any industry in the country, and in its personnel more disabled men, as well. It speaks well for the public spirit of the country, in its support of the Ministry, that there have been so few cases of difficulty and injustice.
I listened with great care to the arguments laid from every side of the House as to how such cases of inequitable treatment are to be adjusted. I join with other Members in congratulating the hon. and learned Member for Rusholme (Mr. Merriman). Some of his suggestions were very helpful, but I should like to go a little further than he and suggest greater co-operation with the British Legion. Remarkable assistance has been given to the Pensions Ministry by the British Legion. I have gone through the Annual Report for 1924 of that organisation, and I find that in respect to seven years' time limits, dependents' pensions, medical boards, recovery of overpayments, deaths of pensioners in receipt of final weekly awards, travelling allowances, expenses to relative of deceased pensioners, reviews of entitlement and dependency pensions, ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis, Civil Service grants and the after-care of tuberculosis patients, very expert assistance has been given to the Ministry by them. To my mind this assistance could be utilised still further without setting up a Royal Commission, which is lengthy in consideration and slow in the delivery of its judgment. To my mind a Royal Commission would not be as efficient, by reason of its lethargy, because all Royal Commissions are lethargic, and if one were set up now it could not report promptly and helpfully on such a great question as this. I, for one, welcome the continuation of those advisory committees which are at present assisting the Minister.
In respect of some of the matters which have been considered, I think the Minister has shown capacity, and not only has the present Minister done so, but his predecessors. I speak particularly of final awards. I feel that there are cases in which the final award might possibly be detrimental to those to whom they are given. We have had medical evidence here to-night, and there have been cases of which I am cognisant wherein the final award taken too soon might mean too low a final pension, and by taking away continuous medical inspection has resulted in subsequent developments being overlooked which might have led to a more equitable adjustment of the case by a larger grant of pension. On the question as to how we stand compared with other countries in these matters, I have gone to the trouble of obtaining details of the procedure regarding medical inspection, adjustment and entitlement in the United States, France, Belgium, Germany and Italy. Admitting that our method is not perfect, and does not deal equitably with every case, in none of the countries I mention do they provide for even so thorough and equitable a judgment as obtains at present in this country, both as regards committees, medical boards, the very rightful provision for ex-service men sitting on adjustment committees and pension grant committees.
As a last word, I ask, while complimenting this Ministry—and remember that it is a very great hall mark of the quality of the system that there has been a continuance of policy from 1917 and 1918, when Mr. Barnes and Mr. Hodges instituted the first warrant—on what has been done, I plead for further oppor- tunities for the British Legion in a consultative capacity, and I ask that there should be greater opportunities given in respect to work. I know this is a matter for the Ministry of Labour, but I feel that in respect of those Government Departments which are on the King's Roll and which might take more men than they are doing, a word should be said. Some of us in the industrial world know-that not only are we proud to take our exact quota of broken men in respect to the King's Roll, but that a larger quota often obtains, and there are some few industries that might very well take 10 per cent. of these broken and disabled men. I would like to ask the Ministry of Pensions to collaborate with the Treasury and with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see if some scheme of easement of national taxation might not be permitted to those firms who were public spirited enough to take, not only the King's Roll quota, but a greater quota than that.
:That is a matter for the Finance Bill.
:I bow to your ruling, Mr. Hope, and I will leave that point. I ask, finally, that there may be opportunities of collaboration with other Government Departments to deal with subsidiary matters bearing on this question, and that the British Legion and some other useful Service organisation might collaborate with the Ministry in the performance of its most important duties.
10.0 P.M.
:Some of the speakers to-night have made the point that when they are criticising the Pensions Ministry they are not criticising the Minister, but rather the officials and the administration, but when the Estimates have to be dealt with, the Members of this House do not deal with and do not criticise officials. They criticise the Minister, who is responsible to this House for the proper administration of his Department, and the things that hon. Members have said, although they have pleaded that they did not mean to say them to the Minister, have really been said to the Minister and of the Minister. It is a significant thing that to-night, during the. whole of the Debate, some of the most disturbing things have been said from the Minister's own side. The hon. and gallant Member for the Fairfield Division (Major Cohen) dealt with the question of final awards and the seven years' limit, and incidentally he answered the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) on the question of finality. The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the fact, stated by the Minister, that the 1921 Act went through this House as a matter of common agreement, but I repeat now what I tried to say to the right hon. Gentleman, and, as he admitted, I spoke against the 1921 Act. I moved its rejection, I made strong criticism of the seven years' limit, and I was only restrained from carrying my Motion to a Division in deference to the general feeling of the House that there ought to be common agreement and no appearance of party tactics on a pension question. The hon. and gallant Member for Fairfield, I thought, well answered the right hon. Gentleman. He said the ex-soldiers did not ask for a final award, as the right hon. Gentleman has repeatedly said; they asked for final pensions, which is quite a different thing. A final award, in effect, whether or not the Minister likes it, or whether or not the House likes it, is a bribe to an ex-soldier to accept it, in order to finish with the Ministry of Pensions. That is all, and a man in a questionable economic position accepts six months, twelve months, or two years of a settled pension with a sum of £20, £30, or £40 at the end of it, because he knows he will be sure of that anyhow, and before he gets over his twelve months, sometimes he feels his need of appealing. The Ministry of Pensions doctors must be very wonderful people, more wonderful even than the average doctor outside, to say to a man: "You are not well now, but in two years' time you will be all right." Some of the men die in less than 12 months, so that the doctor, who has to be a prophet too, does not exactly turn out quite satisfactorily. Then the man, at the end of the 12 months, or the two years, or whatever it may be, gets his award; he gets his £20 or £30, and suddenly discovers that, instead of getting better, he is getting worse.
I had a man in my home, who was given a pension, and he accepted it. It was a very bad case indeed. The man was wounded in the stomach and had to undergo several very bad operations. I saw the whole position myself. He has to work in a mine, and he has to stoop. He came to me on Sunday, and, as I looked at his papers, I said: "You are 12 months over." He said: "No; I just got in for my appeal a fortnight before the 12 months were over." I submit that an award ought never to have been made in a case of that description. Then I have another case here sent by the Secretary to the British Legion in my division, and I concur that the British Legion, at least in my experience, is very helpful in these matters. This is the case of a man who had a pension for a wound in the shoulder and arm. He took his final award, and now he finds his arm is almost useless, but he accepted his award, and did not make his appeal, and although this man —I have seen him myself, and the Secretary of the British Legion says that the man's arm is useless—cannot get work of any kind suitable to his present position. He is getting nothing at all from the Ministry of Pensions, and is dependent upon what unemployment benefit or other relief he can get.
Surely that is not a state of things the Ministry will allow to continue. Surely the whole Committee knows within its experience of cases such as I have given to-night and such as have been given by the hon. and gallant Gentleman and by Members on that side as well as this side, that there are men to-day suffering who served this country actually in the field, who, if it were not for boards of guardians and one thing and another, would actually be in want because of the operation of this final award. Surely the House cannot allow that to continue. It may be that the Committee may not agree with our particular form of Select Committee. There may be those who want a Royal Commission. There may be others who say the Departmental Committee is good enough, although I do not agree with the Departmental Committee, for the very reason that the men whose actions you would have to examine would be in that Department. We have not put this on a party ground. The hon. and gallant Member for the Fairfield Division (Major Cohen) who speaks for the British Legion in this matter, and others are going into the Lobby against the Government on this matter.
I do not agree with finality, if finality means the kind of thing we have here. Take the seven years' limit. I criticised the seven years' limit at the time, and I feel now much more that it is a wrong principle to have in operation. The discussion to-night seems to have assumed that the seven years' limit only comes into operation in 1925. When the Minister referred to the 600 cases a week coming in now, he did not mean, I know, to lead the House to believe that the seven years' limit only begins to operate next year. As a matter of fact, the seven years' limit began to operate very shortly after the Act itself was passed. It creates a very peculiar position. A man came to me about his pension this week-end, and he said, "I have a 40 per cent. life pension. I was wounded with a piece of shrapnel in the arm. I was at the same time blown up, and when I came down I remember having a pain in my lung." Now that man came home, and was given a pension. The man does not care whether he gets his pension for the shoulder, the arm or the leg. All he is concerned about is getting his pension. He is getting a pension for his arm. He has been troubled with his back. His own doctor says that when he fell he had, obviously, hurt something in his back, and now he is beginning to be paralysed in the lower part. He may be right or wrong, but the man writes applying for a pension for the injury to his back in addition to that to his arm, but the Ministry says, "You cannot have a pension for that. You have passed the seven years when you can apply."
Imagine the ridiculous position in which the Ministry of Pension places itself. The Minister himself, I dare say, would desire to give that man the opportunity of going before the medical board, but, by the operation of the seven years' limit, in the 1921 Act, he cannot do that. I want the Committee to mark this fact, that the Minister, ever since the final award and the seven years' limit began to operate, has been exercising his brain in order to find ways of avoiding the logic of his own act. Now he says, of course, that we have a Correction of Errors' Regulation in operation—I have got some comfort out of that myself—to deal with exceptional cases owing to final awards, and I believe the Minister now says he deals with cases himself in connection with the seven years' limit. But the ex-Minister of Pensions let the cat out of the bag. He made the statement that, even though you have the Regulation, the Minister has to put these exceptional cases to the Treasury. I have not had much experience of the inner side of the Government, but, at least, I have some knowledge of the Treasury, and a refrigerator is a second-hand affair compared with the Treasury. Its members are very courteous. They are very spmpathetic, but you can take it from me there has got to be someone behind to kick up a row before they give you anything, and the end of the story is that even the Correction of Errors' Regulation and the exceptional claims with which the Minister can deal under the seven years' limit have to be submitted to the Treasury. I think that, however self-satisfied the Minister may have been when he was delivering his speech upon the particular points, that it is obvious that unless this Committee decides to refuse to pass this Estimate that we are going to continue in the next 12 months as we have been doing during the last year or two. The Minister himself is extremely fortunate. Men speak well of him both privately and in this House, but the Minister, with the present Act as it stands in the experience of every Member of this House, cannot do justice to the men and their dependants. Before I leave this question of exceptions and the corrections of errors I should point out one thing, at any rate, that the correction of errors, T understand, only has regard to widows and the children.
:It has nothing to do with widows.
:I was under the impression that that was so under the disablement pensions; but the fact remains that under the final award as it stands, under the seven years' limit, that is the 1921 Act, there are many loopholes which will result in many men and their dependants not receiving pensions who are likely to be excluded even from consideration. We do not see any reason for that, or why you cannot have a reconsideration of these various cases. There is scarcely a Member of this House who has not had experience of local pensions committees. There are very few who have had the experience of the hon. Member for Rush-holme (Mr. Merriman) who made that very able maiden speech to-night, or such experience as the hon. Member who spoke upon the Government side of House (Lieut. - Commander Astbury). He made some very grave charges. He quoted certain Orders which he said had gone out. Two or three years ago I myself quoted Orders. The right hon. Gentleman questioned them at the time. Is it not, however, about time that Members on the Government side should be supporting their own Minister properly if things were all right? When Orders of the kind are read out, and it is suggested that they are being sent out, it leaves the impression upon the minds of Members of this Committee that the officials concerned are practically instructed not to give too many pensions. That is the charge the hon. and gallant Gentleman has made. You have many forms. The hon. and gallant Gentleman gave a case where he said, I think, the tribunal had given an assessment of 35 per cent. and the Minister put it back to 1 per cent. There has been a game of battledore and shuttlecock between the Ministry and the tribunal.
:In the case of John Ford, the Medical Board assessed the man at 40 per cent., the Awards Branch cut him down to 1 per cent.; he appealed to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, who reversed the Awards Branch decision, and gave the man 35 per cent for life.
:That is exactly the position. Other members take up a similar attitude, and in the light of those charges we say, not as a party, but speaking in a purely non-party sense, and with a desire only to avoid grave injustices being suffered even by only a few ex-service men, that the best thing to be done is to have an inquiry. We shall not be too particular as to the form of the inquiry. But we do think the continual scandals that are being exposed ought to come to an end.
Then there is the question of the stabilisation of pensions. I do not know whether the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is going to tell us anything about that to-night. But I wish I was as confident as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is that the pensions will stand without any alteration when the time arrives for reduction, in the ordinary way, as the law at the present time prac- tically assumes. I wish we could 'be satisfied upon that point, and that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would tell us what the policy of the Government is upon it. It would ease not only our minds but the minds of ex-service men, who are wondering what exactly is going to happen in that matter.
The time has expired that I agreed to take up, by arrangement with the Pensions Minister, but I would like to say this in conclusion: For some time there has been considerable dissatisfaction not only amongst ex-service men and their representatives who speak for them but amongst Members of this House. There is dissatisfaction on this side of the House. We do not want to make this a party question, and I for one will not be a party to that at all, but the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember that under what seemed to be a system of economy a year or two ago some of us were forced to take up rather a strong line. I think it could be said that, generally speaking, the right hon. Gentleman has had a very nice time of it while he has been in office. I do not think there has been any extraordinary criticism of him at all.
:Not enough.
:I quite agree. But I was hoping that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was going to deal with the very grave matters that have been so well presented by Members on this side and in other parts of the House. If he will give us an inquiry, we upon this side promise that we will give him of our experience, and do all we can to help him, because we want to find a common solution for the very grave problems that he has to solve. We want to help him in this difficult and delicate task, and the Government may take it from us that if we have to continue as we have been doing during the past few months and last year, then there is going to be an altogether different attitude on this question, because the ex-servicemen will organise and the multitude of growing injustices will be heard all over the country, and they will be expressed by various Members of this House.
:I feel very much inclined to differ with most of the speeches which we have heard to-day. We were in hopes of getting something from the Minister of Pensions, but we seem to have asked him for bread and he has given us a stone. With regard to ex-service men what they have had, not only from this Minister but from all Pensions Ministers, is something which while it has been called sympathy has been so cold that it would freeze the tears on the faces of sinners in hell. I am not particularly concerned whether the inquiry takes the form of a Select Committee or not, but as far as I am personally concerned if it is only going to take the form indicated by the Minister of Pensions I for one am going to vote against the Government.
I really cannot believe that the Minister himself thinks he will do any good by these inquiries. It seems to me to be like it was in the olden days of the Army when you used to get a month's warning that the General was coming to inspect you. There is just one point I wish to bring out. The Minister has mentioned several kinds of work he has done, and the help he gets from various pension committees. Has he not seen the large number of resolutions from pensions committees with which hon. Members of this House have been flooded? I am certain if he has not seen them, not only myself but Members of all parties in this House, will be able to supply him with many resolutions which they have recently received.
I will touch on one more point because I think we should leave the Minister plenty of time to reply. I am going to ask the right hon. Gentleman the same definite question which I asked him the other day, namely, is it a fact—and I want an answer "yes" or "no"—that the awards made by medical boards are subject to revision by the officers of his Department? The other question I wish to put is this: Is it or is it not a fact that not only the right hon. Gentleman himself, but also the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. Roberts) also in May and August last year sent out two secret documents. I am not saying it is or it is not so, but I am asking for a definite statement "yes" or "no" on this point.
rose —
:On a point of Order. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions to be called upon to address the Committee again for a prolonged period, seeing that he has already spoken for over an hour on this subject, and seeing that the Parliamentary Secretary also contributed to this Debate, at about Eight o'Clock this evening, for three-quarters of an hour? Would it not have been better that either of these two Gentlemen should have finished this Debate, instead of the right hon. Gentleman speaking again after having already addressed the Committee?
:I understood that hon. Members during the Debate have been seeking information from the Minister, and he is only taking the opportunity afforded by the Debate to give them that information. The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly in order, as would be any other Member of the Committee, in speaking more than once.
:Still on that point of Order. Is it not recognised that an occasion like this is one for criticism and interrogation of a Department, and, if the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary occupy two and a-half hours of the time allowed for Debate, how is it possible for the Department to be adequately interrogated?
:Obviously, the more criticism there is, the more time the Minister requires to reply.
:I should have thought that, in a Committee which, I understand, is asking for an Inquiry, the interrogation should be accompanied by an opportunity for reply. This Debate has been marked by several very satisfactory points—in the first place, by the non-party attitude of the majority of the speeches, and also by the very notable contribution, if I may say so, of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson), who made a speech which I think showed not only kindness, but that knowledge of the subject and devotion to the cause of the ex-service man which marked his whole administration. My predecessor in this office did one thing with which I should like at once to associate myself, namely, the very generous tribute that he has on more than one occasion paid to the staff of the Ministry of Pensions. I am not in agreement with what was said by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), who thinks it is open to anyone to attack the officials of a Ministry, whether it be the Treasury or any other Department. It is the Minister and the Government who are responsible, and I glad that my right hon. Friend has so often paid tribute to the staff—
:I think I should have said the opposite of what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I should have said that the Minister of Pensions is responsible in this House, and that, if anyone wished to criticise the officials, the real person to whom that criticism should apply was the Minister himself.
:I am within the recollection of the Committee when I say that the hon. Member said the Treasury were exceedingly cold-hearted people. I do not know whether he was referring to the officials of the Treasury or to his right hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. May I say at once that, while anyone who undertakes this task does so with a deep consciousness of its great difficulties, there is one thing which I am sure I and my predecessor, should he ever return, would have in common, and that is a feeling of pleasure at again being associated with the headquarter staff of the Ministry, to whom he and I owe so much, and at once more working with the staff of that Ministry, which contains a larger proportion of disabled ex-service men than any other occupation in the whole country. When people come and talk to me about cold-hearted officials, I should like to give some small indication of what actually happens. There is the Pension Issue Office, which is an office whence pensions are sent out by principles of mass production. There is an enormous amount of labour-saving connected with it, and the staff, if only for that reason, are not among the more highly paid staffs of the Government; but by that staff, which has so little surplus from its own pay, effort after effort has been made on behalf of ex-service men. They get up entertainments for ex-service men, they have taken one hospital under their wing, and I understand they have contributed, from first to last, thousands of pounds out of their comparatively small pay for the help of the pensioners whom they also help by their very able and efficient work.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested, and I answer it because he raised the point, that pensions should be issued from the local area offices. It is quite true that the Departmental Committee said that that was a matter which ought to be considered, but, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember, there are many things which have to be considered but which are not always done. It is quite true that we thought it ought to be considered, because I was personally aware of the work of the Excise and Customs officers among the old age pensioners, and we wanted to inquire whether that would or would not turn out useful as an ultimate development in the payment of pensions. But the point the right hon Gentleman has forgotten is this. These pensioners move about the country. There is a perfectly colossal correspondence at that office because, as the pensioner moves from place to place, the office has to see that week by week, for himself, his wife and his family, he gets the correct amount paid from any post office to which he may wish to apply. It is no small task. It was much easier in the old days when pensions were paid every three months. Suppose for the one office to which the pensioner wrote, you substituted 170 different offices, the man would never know where to write to. The papers would be following him about the country and there would be such a serious dislocation of the payment of pensions that the sooner the old Pensions Issue Office was restored to its original footing the better it would be for the ex-service men. It is a highly technical point and I am glad he raised it, because it has given me the opportunity of replying.
The right hon. Gentleman dealt with another matter—the advisory council. In the past both my predecessor and I have constantly consulted the central advisory committee. We had a very useful discussion, for instance, on the seven years' limit for widows, which was not only valuable but which revealed the interesting fact that nearly everyone had a different solution to offer. That shows the difficulty of the subject. The only Minister who has never consulted the central advisory committee is the right hon. Gentleman opposite. My action, as soon as I came in, was to set up the North - Western Regional Advisory Council, so as to complete his work, and to summon a meeting of the advisory council. I hope they will be able in the future, as in the past, to help me. I wish to make it clear that we are giving a perfectly fair trial to these councils, and I am experimenting to see how his quite new suggestion is working. On the other hand, I am bound to say I think he gave a somewhat exaggerated idea to the councils of their powers. They are properly advisory bodies, but some of them seem to think they are governing bodies, which is a different matter. I see the claim asserted by the organising secretary of the British Legion for the South Western District that the advisory council felt it was no good their going on unless the Minister would accept the policy formulated by the advisory council. That is a great departure from the ordinary constitutional government of the country, which hitherto has always thought it was the business of the Government to submit its proposals for the consent of the House of Commons. However, that is not the only point on which we are challenged, because I find the organising secretary of the British Legion for Scotland says the central advisory committee should be the actual Ministry of Pensions—I do not quite know what my job would be—and if they agreed on anything the Minister should be compelled to put it into operation. It is the House of Commons which decides policy. It is for the Government to submit it, and these bodies should be, and I hope they will remain, friendly and advisory bodies, not setting themselves up in hostility to the Ministry, but honestly trying to help it.
We have heard a good deal about Members of Parliament and pension cases. If I may make a comment on it in a lighter vein, there are various ways in which Members of Parliament come into contact with pension cases. All of them, without distinction of party, do their best for ex-service men who come to them or write to them. I hope I may be allowed to speak for the whole House in saying we owe a real debt of gratitude to the two hon. Members who act as Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Ministry—my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Murchison), who returned to a post of which he well knew the arduous nature, and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Banbury (Major Edmondson), who has become such a valuable addition to us. They are working for all parties in the House, for all Members, and they are doing good work for the ex-service men. There are various ways in which hon. Members get letters from ex-service men. I have suggested that the proper course is for the ex-service men to go, first and foremost, to the committees, who should be their good friends, and are their good friends, to help them. I noticed, for instance, that one very well-known and popular Member of this House, the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), who I am sorry is not here, wrote to the papers some time ago a letter to the following effect:
An HON. MEMBER: Is that the address of a Liberal club?
:Mark the political dexterity of the hon. and gallant Member. If he succeed with a case, the ex-service men will be convinced of the extraordinary merits of their own particular representative in Parliament; but if my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Roberts) should find it necessary to reject the case, the hon. and gallant Member for Leith would be able to say: "What a Government!"
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has taken the usual course in this House of informing the hon. Member whom he wishes to challenge that he intended to raise this matter?
:I am sure that it was not with any discourtesy to the hon. and gallant Member that I have raised the matter. I must confess that I have often tried to bring this matter up before, but the hon. and gallant Member never was here at the time.
:I will not quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman. I have only just entered the House. I entered when he was reading some passage which, apparently, I had written. I should have greatly esteemed the courtesy if he had seen fit to adopt the usual practice of this House, and informed me that he intended to raise this matter.
:I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I wish I had let him know. I have tried to mention this point before, but I did not see the hon. and gallant Member about, and I did not get the opportunity of mentioning it to him. May I go on with the point, now that he is here. Having sent this letter to the Press he got a reply from a constituent who wrote to him:
The hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Merriman) made a most valuable speech. I should like to go personally into the suggestions which he offered, and particularly into the suggestion about investigating the précis before it goes to the tribunal. I have already taken cases where the précis had been prepared, to see whether they not only included all essential points, but that they were likely to be of assistance to the pensioners. I should like to go into this point. I think that there is a great deal in it. and I hope that it may result in an improvement for the pensioners. The advisory committee of the Labour party sent to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty suggestions some years ago on the question of pensions. I am not attacking them about the suggestions. I think that they show an appreciation of the difficulties of the position and contain many wise points of view on questions of pensions administration. They make certain suggestions, which T understand are limited to the A1 class, when the man has not been discharged more than, say, six months, but they add:
:Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to give us the date of that document?
:The date of the document is the 22nd April, 1920. The principles were sound then and are sound now. The only difference is that we have a much longer time.
:In view of the contention which I have been making in the course of my observations in the present Debate, I personally dissociate myself from the conclusions contained in that document, and I only make this explanation in case such a document should be associated with my name.
:Certainly. At the same time I do associate it with the Labour pary. It is signed,
"J. S. Middleton, Assistant Secretary,"
and comes from 33, Eccleston Square, and it begins:
"I am instructed by the Executive Committee of the Labour party,"
so that my right hon. Friend is in disagreement with the rest of his party.
:That is only because of the later experience.
:Does not the whole Committee know how different is the attitude of the Labour party now from what it was 18 months ago, because of their later experience? What better test could the Ministry have than that its whole administration should What better test could the Ministry have than that its whole administration should be put in charge of a party who honestly believed that they were right and the Ministry was wrong? That party were put in charge of the Ministry, and my right hon. Friend, whose interest in the ex-service men we all know, was there for nine months, and during the nine months the Labour party were in charge of the Ministry they did not change one single principle. It is not because they were thinking of something else. It is because after enquiry they thought those principles were right.
:No, no! The Minister.
:The hon. Member is not entitled to say so. I have been so fortunate as to preserve a copy of the "Labour Year Book" for 1924 in which was set out the whole programme of the Labour party on war pensions. Like the late President Wilson, my right hon. Friend had 14 points. I am bound to say some of those points were incompatible with the others. He could not do them all. He solved that problem by the Statesmanlike act of not doing one of them. Not one single thing was carried out. Do not, I beg of you, believe that that was from any want of sympathy in this House. A large number of those reforms required no legislation whatever. Many of the changes could have been carried out by the approval of the Labour Government. I remember one. I do not know whether he told us, but some of his friends said the secretariat was bad and should be abolished. He was asked a question about it and he said he saw no reason for so sweeping a change. That was part of his programme before he came into power. Now I come to the main issue at stake.
:Before the right hon. Gentleman comes to the main issue, may I ask whether he intends to leave me two or three minutes to reply to the attack?
:I am afraid I have only got seven minutes in which to reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Fairfield. Let me say first, that, like their predecessors the Labour Government, this Government's policy is to maintain the essential principle of the Pensions Warrant and the Pensions Act. May I say that my hon. and gallant Friend misunderstood me if he thought that I am standing here as an advocate of no change. Far from that being the case, I pointed out how time after time reforms had been brought about by the initiative of the Government, the Minister and the Ministry. That policy of constant watchfulness we intend to maintain. What we cannot do is to accept as a Government what no man could defend at this box. A man who is only lightly disabled is to have the right of a definite appeal to a body, specially set up by the House of Commons, to make a final settlement between the man and the State, and this body is to go on making final settlements. A man who loses one finger is under 20 per cent. and is paid off with a single settlement. A man who has lost two fingers is a 20 per cent. case.
:One has a pension and the other has not.
:Yes, one has a pension and the other has not. The most seriously disabled have by universal agreement of all parties been given higher pensions than those less disabled. [An HON. MEMBER: "The final gratuity is the wickedness!"] May I ask the hon. Member to say that to Mr. John Hodge and Mr. Barnes, both of his own party? [HON. MEMBERS: "Certainly!"] May I ask him to say that to the Pensions Minister of the Labour Government, who gave thousands and thousands of these final awards under 20 per cent. without any protest from hon. Members opposite? It is common ground that the more seriously disabled should get more than the less seriously disabled. That is obvious.
In the old days it was 100 per cent., 75 per cent., 50 per cent., and 25 per cent., and those under 25 per cent. got nothing. Now, under the provisions of the Warrant maintained by successive Governments, those who are lightly disabled are paid off by a final grant, limited in amount. The hon. and gallant Member for Fair-field (Major Cohen) says that they have not a pension. No, but they have compensation, laid down by the House of Commons time after time as suitable compensation for the lightly disabled. Therefore, if you open the question of finality for those under 20 per cent., you must necessarily open also the case of those over 20 per cent. That means anxiety to all the men, about 250,000, who are now in receipt of final pensions for life. Moreover there is another body of about a quarter of a. million pensioners who are still on the conditional list and many of them are most anxious to get their pensions settled for life. But if the House decides there are not to be final awards, there will not be final awards, and these men will remain on the conditional list and will be called up time after time for re-examination and be subject to reductions. There will be uncertainty for the whole of these pensioners. To that I cannot agree. But we are determined to inquire into the whole matter. I and the Parliamentary Secretary are going round the country—not, as has been suggested, on a day that is well known— to the offices. I make a practice of walking into an office without anyone knowing that I am coming. I find that on such occasions, when you see the men themselves, you get a quite different story from that which you have heard before. That is what I have been doing.
:Before the right hon. Gentleman concludes, is he going to give us any answer on the question of stabilisation?
:I can only say now that we are going on with the inquiry to which I have referred. I shall go into the question of the "correction of error," and myself see how it is working. I suggest with great respect to those who have only lately been returned at a General Election and have brought this Government into power, that they should not record one of their first votes against the Government, and so express the opinion that the Conservatives cannot be trusted to deal with war pensions.
:Having, without notice, made a charge with which I am not fully cognisant, because I was not in the House when it was made, the right hon. Gentleman has been very careful to see that no time is left for me to reply to him.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £41,025,900, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 149; Noes, 279.
Division No. 118.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harney, E. A. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Ammon, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Rose, Frank H. Attlee, Clement Richard Hastings, Sir Patrick Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Scrymgeour, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Sexton, James Beckett, John (Gateshead) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, G. H. Shiels, Or. Drummond Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Broad, F. A. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Bromley, J. Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield Sitch, Charles H. Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Slesser, sir Henry H. Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Smillie, Robert Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Clowes, S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Cluse, W. S. Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) Snell, Harry Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Kelly, W. T. Stamford, T. W. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell Compton, Joseph Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Sutton, J. E. Connolly, M. Kirkwood, D. Taylor, R. A. Crawfurd, H. E. Lansbury, George Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lawson, John James Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) Dalton, Hugh Lindley, F. W. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Livingstone, A. M. Thurtle, E. Day, Colonel Harry Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph Dennison, R. Lunn, William Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Dixey, A. C. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Varley, Frank B. Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Viant, S. P. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacLaren, Andrew Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Fenby, T. D. Montague, Frederick Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Morris, R. H. Welsh, J. C. Gee, Captain R. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Westwood, J. Gibbins, Joseph Murnin, H. Whiteley, W. Gillett George M. Naylor, T. E. Wignall, James Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Greenall, T. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, Dr J. H. (Lianelly) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Philipson, Mabel Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Pielou, D. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Groves, T. Ponsonby, Arthur Windsor, Walter Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Remer, J. R. Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Riley, Ben Mr. Warne and Mr. Barnes. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ritson, J.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Clarry, Reginald George Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brass, Captain W. Clayton, G. C. Albery, Irving James Brassey, Sir Leonard Cobb, Sir Cyril Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Briggs, J. Harold Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Briscoe, Richard George Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Brittain, Sir Harry Conway, Sir W. Martin Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cooper, A. Duff Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Cope, Major William Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Courtauld, Major J. S. Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Astor, Viscountess Bullock, Captain M. Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burton, Colonel H. W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Barnett, Major Richard W. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Crook, C. W. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Campbell, E. T. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Cassels, J. D. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Curzon, Captain Viscount Bethell, A. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Dalkeith, Earl of Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dalziel, Sir Davison Blades, Sir George Rowland Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Davidson, J. (Hertfd. Hemel Hempst'd) Blundell, F. N. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Boothby, R. J. G. Chapman, Sir S. Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Christie, J. A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Jacob, A. E. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Drewe, C. Jephcott, A. R. Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth) Eden, Captain Anthony Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Rye, F. G. Edmondson, Major A. J. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Salmon, Major I Elliot, Captain Walter E. King, Captain Henry Douglas Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Elveden, Viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir-Clement Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Knox, Sir Alfred Sandeman, A. Stewart Everard, W. Lindsay Lamb, J. Q. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Little, Dr. E. Graham Sandon, Lord Falle, Sir Bertram G. Locker-Lampson. G. (Wood Green) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Falls, Sir Charles F. Loder, J. de V. Savery, S. S. Fermoy, Lord Lougher, L. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) Ford, P. J. Lowe, Sir Francis William Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Forrest, W. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Foster, Sir Harry S. Mac Andrew, Charles Glen Shepperson, E. W. Fraser, Captain Ian Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfst) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Skelton, A. N. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Galbraith, J. F. W. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Smith-Carington, Neville W. Ganzonl, Sir John Macintyre Ian Smithers, Waldron Gates, Percy McLean, Major A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Macmillan, Captain H. Spender Clay, Colonel H. Gower, Sir Robert Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Sprot, Sir Alexander Grace, John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Grant, J. A. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Greene, W. P. Crawford Macquisten F. A. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Steel, Major Samuel Strang Gretton, Colonel John Makins, Brigadier-General E. Storry Deans, R. Grotrian, H. Brent Malone Major P. B. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Strickland, Sir Gerald Gunston, Captain D. W. Marqesson Captain D. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Marriott Sir J. A. R. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Pad.) Mason Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Styles, Captain H. Walter Hammersley, S. S. Merriman, F. B. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Frater Hanbury, C. Meyer Sir Frank Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Harland, A. Milne J. S. Wardlaw- Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Harrison, G. J. C. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hartington, Marquess of Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Moreing, Captain A. H. Waddington, R. Haslam, Henry C. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Hawke, John Anthony Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Murchison, C. K. Warrender, Sir Victor Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Neville, R. J. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wells, S. R. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford. Watford) Nuttall, Ellis Winby, Colonel L. P. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Oakley, T. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wise, Sir Fredric Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Pennefather, Sir John Wolmer, Viscount Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Penny, Frederick George Womersley, W. J. Holland, Sir Arthur Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Holt, Captain H. P. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Hopkins, J. W. W. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Radford, E. A. Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Ramsden, E. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Rawson, Alfred Cooper Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Hume, Sir G. H. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Young, E. Hilton (Norwich) Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Rice, Sir Frederick Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Colonel Gibbs. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Ropner, Major L.
Original Question again proposed.
rose —
It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911 (Order in Council)
Resolved,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying His Majesty to make an Order in Council under the Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, a draft of which was presented to this House on the 10th day of February last."—[ Sir Laming Worthington-Evans. ]
Gas Regulation Act, 1920
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the British Gas Light Company, Limited, with respect to the Trowbridge undertaking of that company, which, was presented on the 20th May and published, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of the town and county of Haverfordwest, which was presented on the 11th May and published, be approved."—[ Sir Burton Chadwick. ]
Electricity (Supply) Acts
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the Parish of Chip-stead, in the rural district of Reigate, and of the parish of Woodmansterne, in the rural district of Epsom, all in the county of Surrey, which was presented on the 30th day of March, 1925, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Tanfield, in the county of Durham, which was presented on the 6th day of April, 1925, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts,.1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the rural districts of Cathering-ton and Fareham, in the county of Southampton, and part of the rural district of Westbourne, in the administrative county of West Sussex, which was presented on the 28th day of April, 1925, be approved."—[ Colonel Ashley. ]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Padiham, in the county palatine of Lancaster, which was presented on the 28th day of April, 1925, be approved."—[ Colonel Ashley. ]
:I wish to raise the point as to whether now we have not passed what is recognised as about the daily quota of these special Orders.
:The understanding was that we should not have more than ten.
:On that point, may I, with all due deference, call attention to the fact that last year, not on one occasion but on many occasions, Members opposite, even those on the Front Bench in one case, objected to our asking for the same number. I humbly submit that we should preserve the rights and privileges of private Members in this matter.
:I inquired, when I saw these Motions on the Paper, and found they were with what was agreed.
:Was this understanding made through the ordinary channels, or how?
:It was agreed upon the Floor of the House. An appeal was made to me, and I agreed that not more than a certain number of Orders should be put down on any one day, unless there were some special circumstances.
:I beg your pardon.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919. in respect of part of the rural district of Taunton, in the county of Somerset, which was presented on the 28th day of April, 1925, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Abingdon, in the county of Berks, and part of the rural district of Culham, in the county of Oxford, which was presented on the 28th day of April, 1925, be approved." —[ Colonel Ashley. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Naval Officers (Marriage Allowance)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
:I desire to refer, with brevity, to the matter of the marriage allowance for officers of the Royal Navy. This allowance has been demanded for many years by officers in the Navy. It is an allowance which is received by officers in the Army and the Air Force, and there is no logical reason for it being withheld from the one Service when you give it to the two other Services. There are far stronger reasons why this allowance should be given to officers in the Royal Navy than to officers in the Army and the Air Force. The position is rather an extraordinary one, because for a large number of years a pensions agitation, respectfully conducted, has been in progress, and a certain amount of money was included in this year's Naval Estimates to make provision for these marriage allowances. Constitutionally, I presume, the Admiralty are not right in withholding money from those to whom it has been rightfully granted by the House of Commons. One has to assume that before this money was included in the Navy Estimates it was a matter of grave consideration in the Admiralty, and was submitted to every possible scrutiny. One has to suppose also that the Treasury questioned and criticised this proposal. Eventually it came before the House of Commons and the House granted this Supply. The Admiralty received the gratitude of the whole of the Navy for having given this tardy concession, which had been the subject of their desire for so long. They received the gratitude without protest, but I believe there is no precedent in British financial history for making a grant of this sort and subsequently withholding the money which has been constitutionally voted by Parliament. Be that as it may, I think we are entitled to know from the First Lord, who is most sympathetic, as everyone knows, what the position is Here is this sum of £350,000 granted in the Naval Estimates. One is entitled to know how that figure was arrived at, what it represents, what allowances were contemplated, and whether those allowances compare favourably or unfavourably with thee allowances paid in the Army and the Air Force. One is entitled to know that, and it is not sufficient for the First Lord of the Admiralty to say that he can vouchsafe no information because it is due to the House of Commons which so willingly and generously granted this money. I want to point out the seriousness of the position to the First Lord. Naval Estimates have many advocates' in this House, and also many critics. Many Members think that in the present financial situation money spent upon the Navy is wasted. If they could point to an item of naval expenditure and show that the Admiralty had asked for this sum of money as being necessary and then discovered that it was not necessary, do they not realise that they are setting up a precedent in the future wherefrom critics may be able to say, "Last year the Admiralty asked for £350,000 for a service, which they said was necessary, and then, having got the money, decided there was no use for it whatever."
I ask the Government, not the Admiralty, because they are aware of the seriousness of the position, to beware of setting up a precedent of this kind, because they are going to give ground for critics to take exception to items that appear in the Naval Estimates, presumably after careful and stringent inquiry. I want the right hon. Gentleman to say a few words on this subject. I want him to realise that he has raised the hopes of naval officers and their wives. He must be aware of the suspense in which they now are. They think that their suspense ought to be terminated and that they should have a cut-and-dried explanation of whether or not they are going to get this allowance. The men of the Fleet have these allowances, the officers of the other Services have them, a sum of money has been granted by Parliament for this purpose, and I do not think we are asking too much when we ask the First Lord of the Admiralty to give some explanation of how the matter now stands.
:I would like to say that for many years we on this side of the House have been asking for this marriage allowance, and it is a little unfortunate that it should have to be brought up by a Liberal on the other side of the House, and presented as his case when it really is our case.
:I raised this before you were in Parliament.
:I do hope the First Lord of the Admiralty will remember that the whole of the Unionist party are determined that the Navy must have fair play, and is not getting fair play so long as the money that was granted for the marriage allowance is not given, and we hope very much that the right hon. Gentleman will give us a satisfactory and a final answer.
:This subject, I am aware, receives the cordial sympathy of Members of both sides of the House who represent our great naval ports, and also a great number of other Members of this House. I have no complaint at all against the hon. and gallant Member who has raised this subject to-night. I am only sorry that I cannot give him a definite answer. I want, however, to clear up one or two points. The hon. and gallant Member said the House had voted this money, and therefore the conclusion was that it must be spent on that particular service, I would like to remind the House that when they voted the money I said quite plainly, as I was bound to do, that I wanted to make it quite clear that, much as I sympathised with the appeal which had been made for granting marriage allowances to the officers, it is not true that the thing is yet a fait accompli.
:This money was voted after you said that.
:It was voted after I said that, but it was subject to what I then said. It is also perfectly true to say that, although the money has been voted, that Vote is not a mandatory Vote on the Government to spend it, but it is a permission given to the Government to spend the money, and if they do not spend it they must produce some explanation for not having spent it in that way. It is clear from what I have said, and I made it clear, embarrassing as it was to me to be in that position, that the sum we had put in was a sum which we thought would be spent if the proposals we made to the Cabinet were accepted, and if not either a smaller sum or no sum at all might have been decided upon by the Government. I think I have not in any way departed from the position 1 then took up. Obviously I should not have recommended the marriage allowance payment if I had not thought there was a very strong case. I thought so then and I do so still.
:If the Government do not spend the money that has been voted in this particular way, can they spend it in any other way?
:They will have to explain it if they do not spend it in that way. In the natural course, if not spent, it would go to the redemption of the Sinking Fund afterwards. The hon. Gentleman has asked whether I could give a definite answer now as to what is going to happen. I am not in a position to do that. The matter has not yet been decided. As he will realise, it is a very complicated question, because of the different scales of the three Services, and into the dispute comes the possibility of counterclaims from the other Services if what we have claimed appears to them to take us above the point which they have reached. It will be decided shortly. I think it is perfectly clear that I should not have put up this case if I had not agreed with it, and my hope is that it will be decided in the way that I should approve, but at this moment I cannot give an answer. I want to make it clear, at any rate, that in introducing this question to the House I did point out quite clearly that it was not a final figure, and that it was subject to the decision of the Cabinet, which decision has yet to be taken, after consultation with the Committee which they have appointed.
:Upon a point of Constitutional Law, I want to submit that the right hon. Gentleman is not correct in considering any reservation—
It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.