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Commons Chamber

Volume 184: debated on Wednesday 27 May 1925

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 27, 1925

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

South Metropolitan Gas Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

New Shoreham Harbour Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Saint Mary's Church, Birmingham, and General Hospital Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Newport Corporation Bill (by Order),

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

New Writs

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the electing of a Member to 6erve in this present Parliament for the Ayr District of Burghs in the room of the right hon. Sir John Lawrence Baird, Baronet, C.M.G., D.S.O., who since his election for the said Burghs hath accepted the Office of Steward or Bailiff of His Majesty's Three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham in the County of Buckingham."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Before you put the question, Sir, may I point out to you that I think the writ is wrongly drawn, as the right hon. Member has not accepted the Stewardship of these Hundreds, which are offices of profit under the Crown, but has been given the dignity of a Baron of the United Kingdom?

Question put, and agreed to.

County of Sussex (Eastbourne Division), Right honourable Sir GEORGE AMBROSE LLOYD, G.C.S.I., G.C.I.E., D.S.O. (Manor of Northstead).—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Ibn Saud

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the government of Ibn Saud, Sultan of Nejd, is recognised by His Majesty's Government; and whether he will consider appointing a political officer or diplomatic envoy to the court of this potentate in order to keep a watch on British interests in Arabia?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Government have not overlooked the possibility of appointing a representative to the court of the Sultan of Nejd. I shall keep this possibility in mind.

Mosul Boundary Commission

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the Report of the Mosul Boundary Commission will be published?

No, Sir. The Commissioners have not yet found it possible to name the date when their Report will be ready for submission to the Council of the League of Nations.

Montenegro

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the date of the most recent Report he received from His Majesty's Vice-Consul at Cettinje; whether reference is made to the conditions now prevailing in Montenegro; and what, briefly, is the present state of that country?

The last Report received from the British Vice-Consul at Cettinje was dated 11th May and dealt with the conditions prevailing in Montenegro. There is not, as far as I can see, anything exceptional in those, conditions at the present time.

Egypt (Elections)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House when the Egyptian elections, which have been postponed beyond the date provided by the constitution, are to be held?

No, Sir. The elections have been postponed by the Egyptian Government pending the enactment of a new electoral law.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any guarantee that there will be no further infringement of the Egyptian Constitution?

No, Sir. It is the desire of the Government not to interfere in the purely domestic concerns of Egypt.

Russia

Commercial and Diplomatic Relations

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government not to proceed for the present with the resumption of negotiations with the Soviet Government for the purpose of establishing normal commercial and diplomatic relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and the settlement of debts and claims?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he has taken or proposes to take to improve the relations between this country and Russia?

I would refer the hon. Members to the answer given to the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) on 11th March, and to the reply I gave to a supplementary question by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) on 18th March.

May we take it that His Majesty's Government have no intention of resuming negotiations with the Soviet Government?

No, Sir. I should, of course, consider any proposals that were made to me, but I have no intention of initiating them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Russian Soviet Government have done anything towards the acknowledgment of their debts to this country?

Russian Nationals (Compensation Claims)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government are prepared to consider claims by Russian nationals for compensation arising from British actions in that country?

If and when the Soviet Government make an offer which His Majesty's Government could accept as a suitable basis for further negotiations regarding claims, then any claims which the Soviet Government might bring forward would be considered.

Are the Government not prepared to make to the Soviet Government any offer of compensation for the damage done by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during his private war against Russia?

I do not think I ought to be called upon to answer a question couched in those terms.

Esthonia (Islands of Dago and Oesel)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has made, or is contemplating, any approaches to the Government of Esthonia, or has received any suggestions or offer from the Government of Esthonia, respecting the leasing to Great Britain of the Island of Dago or the Island of Oesel, or both; and whether His Majesty's Government is contemplating or desires to establish an aeroplane base or a naval base, or both, in the Baltic?

Ex-Enemy Territory

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the total area of the territory added to the British Empire as a result of the late War?

The mandated territories formerly belonging to Germany and now under British authority (including those in respect of which the Mandates are exercised by the Governments of the Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa) have a total area of 837,611 square miles. The only territory directly incorporated in His Majesty's Dominions as a result of the late War is the Island of Cyprus, which was annexed in November, 1914. The area is 3,584 square miles.

The Island of Nauru is mandated territory. It was formerly one of the German Caroline Islands.

Arms Traffic Conference

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has anything to report with regard to the decisions of the Arms Traffic Conference; and whether the British delegate has been instructed to support the proposal, made by the American delegate, for a convention which would compel all countries to publish the statistics of armament production, both State and private, with which proposal the French delegation has declared its sympathy?

The deliberations of the conference have not yet reached a stage which would enable me to make any statement such as is desired by the hon. Member. As regards the second part of the question, the position is not yet sufficiently clear for it to be possible to issue any definite instructions to the British delegate. The various points under discussion necessarily hang together, and it is difficult to separate and settle them individually until they can be reviewed as a whole.

King's Roll (London Newspapers)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any information as to the number of disabled ex-service men employed by those London newspapers which are upon the King's Roll?

I am not sure that the staff employed on London newspapers is separately distinguishable in all cases, but I am making inquiries, and will let the hon. Member know the result. The general minimum qualification is 5 per cent. of the total staff.

Unemployment

Wigan and Adlington Employment Exchanges

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the fact that no provision is made in Wigan for the people to be sheltered from the weather when attending the Employment Exchange in Mesnes Street; that it is quite common to see large crowds waiting their turn to be attended to, and that during the past winter people have been compelled to wait outside in very wet weather; and whether he will have inquiries made with a view to better accommodation being provided in the future?

I am aware that there have been queues outside the Wigan Employment Exchange on several occasions during the past winter, but these were chiefly due to applicants attending in advance of their scheduled times. Alterations to the Exchange premises have recently been completed, and certain relaxations as to frequency of attendance have been granted. I am advised that with the improved accommodation and provided applicants attend at the proper time, there should be no undue waiting.

asked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the necessity for a substation to be opened at Adlington, Lancashire, as at present the unemployed persons in this district have to travel to Chorley, which means a walk of 8 to 10 miles for the double journey, or travel by train, which costs 9d. for the return journey, three times a week; and whether he will have inquiries made into the needs of this district with a view to proper provision being made for the needs of people who are unemployed?

I have made inquiries and understand that a large colliery in the district has just closed down, throwing about 1,000 workers out of employment. Arrangements are accordingly being made to open temporarily a local office at or near Adlington.

Uncovenanted Benefit

asked the Minister of Labour whether the Memorandum of Directions to Local Employment Committees, No. 82/2, which refers to un-covenanted benefit, has been revised and brought up to date since the passing of the Unemployment Insurance Act of last August?

The amendments necessitated by the Act of last August have been made by the issue of further memoranda to the local employment committees from time to time; but a codifying memorandum bringing the whole matter up to date in one document has now been prepared and is being issued. In accordance with the usual practice, a copy will be placed in the Library of the House.

Age Limit

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the demoralising effect of the payment of unemployment benefit on the younger part of the population, he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation to limit the payment of benefit to men and women of over 25 years of age?

As contributions have to be paid by persons under the age of 25, I do not think it would be possible, or fair, to refuse to pay benefit to them.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the general agreement as to the demoralising effect of unemployment on these young people, he is doing anything to find work for them?

Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware of the demoralising effect of the inheritance of unearned income?

Short-Time Work

asked the Minister of Labour whether the proposed Committee to inquire into the working of the Unemployment Insurance Acts will inquire into the practice adopted by trusts and combinations such as the Calico Printers' Association, the Bleachers' Association and the Bradford Dyers' Association, of employing their workmen on three days a week only and putting them on insurance benefit for the remaining days?

This point will be considered, together with others, in settling the terms of reference to the Committee.

Benefit Disallowed

asked the Minister of Labour, whether his attention has been called to the large number of insured persons who have been disqualified from insurance benefit by the local employment committees in many parts of the country on the grounds that they were not likely to be employed under normal conditions and who have been able to obtain employment following this decision; whether, when such cases arise, he will be prepared to authorise the payment of benefit up till the time the insured person started work; and will he consider the advisability of withdrawing the above instruction to local unemployment committees?

I am not aware of the existence of cases of the kind indicated. If, however, the hon. Member has in mind any cases in which, in his view, extended benefit has been improperly refused on the ground that the applicant is a person for whom in normal times insurable employment would not be likely to be available, I will cause inquiry to be made and let him know the result.

Juvenile Centres, Scotland

asked the Minister of Labour which education authorities in Scotland have established juvenile unemployment classes; and what are the number of centres in the area of each authority?

As the reply includes a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The answer is as follows:

The following local education authorities in Scotland have established juvenile unemployment centres since 1st April, 1924:

Glasgow—

16 Centres for boys, 13 for girls.

Edinburgh—

2 Centres for boys, 2 for girls.

Aberdeen—

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls.

Renfrewshire—

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Greenock.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Paisley.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Johnstone.

Dumbartonshire—

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Alexandria.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Clydebank.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Dumbarton.

Lanarkshire—

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Coatbridge.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Motherwell.

1 Centre for boys, 1 for girls, at Rutherglen.

1 Centre for boys, at Hamilton.

These Centres are at present closed owing to a fall in attendance.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the average attendance at juvenile unemployment centres in Scotland per week for the year ending 31st March, 1925; and what were the proportions of claimants and non-claimants, respectively?

The average weekly attendance (excluding holiday weeks) at juvenile unemployment centres in Scotland during the year which ended on 31st March, 1925, was 1,734, including 1,438 claimants and 296 non-claimants. It should be noted that the Glasgow centres, at which the average weekly attendance was 1,742 (1,378 claimants and 364 non-claimants), did not open until 30th June, 1924.

Women in Industry

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can inform the House as to the estimated number of women now engaged in industry as compared with the number before the War?

According to the population censuses the number of females of 18 years of age and over in Great Britain who were gainfully occupied increased from 4,471,595 in 1911 to 4,732,636 in 1921, being an increase of 5·8 per cent. I may add that among males of the same ages there was an increase of 6·8 per cent.

Would not those figures to some extent, account for the unemployment figures which we have to-day?

To a certain extent that would be the case, but not entirely, because before the War the normal increase in the population was carried oft by the expansion of industry, and that is not the case now.

Royal Air Force

Singapore (Air Defence)

asked the Secretary of State for Air what is the estimated cost in this financial year of the air defence of Singapore; and will he obtain an approximate estimate thereof on the completion of the base there according to present plans?

As regards the first part of the question, no expenditure from Air Votes is contemplated this year for the purpose mentioned with the possible exception of a sum not exceeding £300 for a detailed survey of the site of the aerodrome. As regards the second part, it is imposible at present to give even an approximate estimate of the cost of the scheme of air defence that may be found necessary.

Is it wise to embark on the construction of a great naval base at Singapore without reckoning the probable ultimate cost of upkeep?

I have already pointed out that no expenditure has yet been involved on the Air Vote.

Would a house in Park Lane be any use if you could not afford to pay the kitchen staff?

Qualified Pilots

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give the proportion of qualified pilots in the Air Force in relation to the number of the other officers and men in the Force; and whether he can give the corresponding proportion for the French Air Force?

The percentage of pilots qualified or at present under training in relation to the total number of officers on the strength of the Royal Air Force is 74, whilst the percentage in relation to all ranks is approximately 8. As regards the second part, in the French Service a large number of the personnel engaged on duties in connection with the Air Service are borne on the military and naval establishments, and it is not possible to give corresponding figures, but the percentage of flying in relation to ground personnel is probably much the same as in the Royal Air Force.

Recruiting Advertisements

asked the Secretary of State for Air the amount spent in the six months ending 31st March in recruiting advertisements?

The approximate expenditure in respect of the period referred to is £1,620.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of doubling this amount in order that men may realise the desirability of fighting for their country?

I will consider my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion, but I would like to point out that the recruiting figures so far are not unsatisfactory.

Will the right hon. hon. Gentleman also consider the advisability of making them accurate? [HON. MEMBERS: " Withdraw! "]

Airship R 33

asked the Secretary of State for Air if the repairs to the airship R 33 are being carried out without delay; and can he state when this airship will be ready to continue experimental work?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 14th May to the hon. Member for Acton.

Irish Free State (Killeagh Aerodrome)

asked the Secretary of State for Air the amount spent on the unfinished aerodrome at Killeagh, Ireland; the progress made before its handing over to the Irish Free State; and its condition when handed over?

The answer to the first part of the question is £491,476; to the second, that one shed was half finished, another about one-third finished, and the subsidiary buildings and works were nearly completed when the station was transferred by the Admiralty to the Air Ministry in 1919. As regards the last part, no further work was carried out after the transfer above mentioned, but the aerodrome was raided in 1922, when very considerable damage was done to the buildings, and they were consequently in a dismantled condition when handed over to the Irish Free State Government.

When the aerodrome was handed over, did loose property such as steel girders also become the property of the Free State Government, or did we make arrangements for collecting it?

So far as I remember, everything was handed over to the Free State Government, but I will look into the specific point raised by the hon. Member.

Ministers' Visit to Middle East

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the far-reaching importance to the Empire and of future possibilities, he will publish in the form of a White Paper a Report of his recent trip during the Easter Recess with a sketch map of the ground covered?

The question of the issue of a White Paper in connection with the recent tour by air of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies and myself in the Middle East is at present under consideration by His Majesty's Government, and in this connection I will bear my hon. Friend's suggestion in mind.

Justices of the Peace (Members of Parliament)

asked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the fact that mayors of boroughs and chairmen of district councils are, for the period of their office, placed upon the commission of the peace for their borough or county, the Lord Chancellor will consider the appointment of all Members of this House to the magisterial bench in their own constituencies for the period of their membership?

Mayors of boroughs and chairmen of district councils are, by Statute, justices of the peace during their terms of office. Their names are not placed upon the Commission of the Peace by the Lord Chancellor. Any increase in the number of ex officio justices of the peace such as that suggested by the hon. Member would have to be made under statutory authority. The Royal Commission on the Selection of Justices of the Peace (1910) considered the desirability of increasing the number of ex officio justices and they did not recommend any increase.

Does the Attorney-General not realise that if he carried out my suggestion it would be a great convenience to constituents up and down the country, and it would be a great help not only to them but also greatly assist hon. Members in carrying out their duties?

Is the Attorney-General aware that nearly all the magisterial benches are very much overcrowded?

Hudson Memorial, Hyde Park

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will inform the House why the design for the Hudson memorial in Hyde Park was not submitted to the Fine Arts Commission; and what action the present Government propose to take with regard to the demand for the removal of the Epstein sculpture?

( for the First Commissioner of Works): The design for the memorial was accepted before the Royal Fine Art Commission was appointed, but it was submitted to an advisory committee, several members of which are now on the Royal Commission. As regards the second part of the question, there is no evidence to show that there is a. general desire for the removal of the sculpture.

Will the Undersecretary take the trouble to stand in front of this memorial for a few hours each day for a day or two so that he may ascertain the general feelings of the public; and will he assure the House that no more memorials or statuary of any kind shall be erected in Hyde Park or Kensington Gardens without Parliament having an opportunity of expressing its opinion?

The Hudson memorial was only unveiled about a week ago, and I ask the House to suspend its judgment until the public have had a longer time to judge.

Will the hon. Gentleman represent to his Noble Friend the undesirability of approving the erection of monuments of any kind in Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park until the matter has been thoroughly discussed in this House?

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that a large number of Royal Academicians and Art experts approve of the Hudson Memorial as a great work of Art?

Meat Prices (Butchers' Profits)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, seeing that from the Report of the Royal Commission on Food Prices butchers in London working-class districts are making a gross profit of 42 per cent. on chilled beef and 42 per cent. on frozen mutton, he proposes to take any action to restrict such profits?

The Government are carefully considering the whole of the Royal Commission's Report, and an announcement will be made as soon as a decision is reached.

As the majority of those very large profits are extracted from the working-classes, will the Board of Trade hurry up a decision in this matter?

Small-Pox

asked the Minister of Health the average number of deaths due to small-pox in England and Wales, and the average-number of deaths due to vaccination in each of the last ten decennial periods?

As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer.

The following are the required figures for the last seven decennial periods. Comparable figures are not available for the decennia prior to 1851–60.

England and Wales.

Average annual deaths from small-pox and vaccination:

Small-pox.

Cow-pox and other effects of vaccination.

1851–60

4,177

?

1861–70

3,421

10

1871–80

5,705

29

1881–90

1,228

52

1891–1900

406

43

1901–10

429

19

1911–20

14

9

Contributory Pensions Bill

asked the Minister of Health whether a civil servant who is not a contributor under the National Health Insurance Acts may become a voluntary contributor under the proposed Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill; and, if so, what contributions he will pay?

A civil servant is excepted from National Health Insurance, but, if his rate of remuneration does not exceed £250 a year, Clause 15 of the Bill provides for his compulsory insurance for widows' and orphans' pensions, or in the case of women for orphans' pensions. The contribution payable will be found from paragraphs ( c ) and ( d ) of Subsection (2) of Clause 15. A civil servant, other than a married woman, whose rate of remuneration exceeds £250 a year, on 4th January, 1926, will have the option of becoming a voluntary contributor if at any time since 15th July, 1912, his remuneration for a period of not lees than two years was at such a rate that he would have been insured under the National Health Insurance Act but for the fact that his employment was covered by a certificate of exception. The rates of contribution payable by men and women in this class will be found from paragraph ( i ) of Sub-section (1) and Subsection (2) of Clause 9 of the Bill.

Paymaster-General

asked the Prime Minister when it is intended to fill the office of Paymaster-General?

I hope that this office will be filled very shortly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great interest that is shown among some of those on the back benches in this appointment?

Ex-State Servants (Private Employment)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to instances of persons holding responsible positions under the State resigning their appointments and accepting lucrative positions in private undertakings with which they have been in contact during their official careers on behalf of the public or in a quasi-judicial capacity; whether he is aware that these incidents gravely affect the confidence which the public should have in Government servants; and whether he is prepared to set up a committee to consider what restrictions, if any, should be placed on the liberty of persons in the public service to engage in particular kinds of business on retirement?

Members of His Majesty's Services, civil, naval, military, and air, on retirement or resignation from the public service, are at liberty, in common with their fellow-citizens, to engage in any legitimate occupation, whether political, professional or commercial. I do not accept the implication that State servants are less alive to considerations of honour or good taste than other sections of the community, and I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that they are the inheritors of great traditions. I do not propose to adopt the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.

Would the right hon. Gentleman admit that, when someone in an official positon where he has to give quasi legal decisions subsequently transfers to a firm on whose interests he has to decide, it is somewhat invidious?

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will refer to the Debate on the Ministry of Transport Estimates.

Italy (Diplomatic Privileges)

asked the Prime Minister what number of persons representing the Italian Government or any department of the same have special diplomatic privileges in this country; and whether such privileges include the admission of correspondence and other literature in sealed bags?

Diplomatic privileges to representatives of the Italian Government in this country are accorded only to the Italian Ambassador and his staff, who at present number 14. The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

Electricity Supply, Worksop

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that in March, 1924, the Electricity Com- missioners desired the Worksop Urban District Council to approach the Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Company relative to a bulk supply; that the company's terms were found to be prohibitive, and a few weeks ago negotiations were broken off; that on the 31st March last the Commissioners requested the Worksop Council to approach the Rotherham Corporation to ascertain whether a bulk supply could be obtained, and as a result an agreement was arrived at within 10 days respecting terms; if he can state for what reason the Commissioners, having invited the Worksop Council to approach the Rotherham Corporation, now refuse to sanction the agreement; if he aware that, unless something is done quickly, the ensuing winter will find the Worksop Council unequal to giving its customers an adequate supply; and will he instruct the Electricity Commissioners either to allow the Worksop Council to extend its own generating station or permit the Worksop Council and the Rotherham Corporation to carry out the agreement tentatively arrived at?

The negotiations in connection with the provision of additional supplies of electricity required by the Worksop undertaking have been protracted owing to legal and other difficulties. The Electricity Commissioners have now decided to approve the extension of the Worksop generating station as desired by the urban district council, and this decision has been communicated to the council.

Post Office

Stamping Deeds, Brighton

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to another loss of an original deed deposited at the Brighton post office for stamping; and whether he will, in view of previous losses of valuable original documents and deeds, reconsider the requests previously made for the re-opening of the Brighton stamping office?

I regret to say that a document deposited for stamping was unaccountably lost at the Brighton post office in February last. There is no recollection of any previous occurrence of the kind at that office. The question of opening a stamping office at Brighton is a matter for the decision of the Board of Inland Revenue.

In view of the fact that particulars of previous losses of documents have already been submitted to the right hon. Baronet's predecessor, will he consider these losses in consultation with the Treasury, with a view to another office being opened?

I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. The previous losses to which he refers were not, I understand, losses of documents deposited for stamping.

May I ask the right hon. Baronet whether the previous losses did not take place outside the post office from the postal van, owing to the fact that the postal van was left unattended in the street, so that the loss was entirely due to negligence on the part of the service in question?

Printing

asked the Postmaster-General the total amount spent by the Post Office in printing during 1923–24 and 1924–25; and what proportion was for printing done by private companies?

The amount spent on printing for the Post Office for 1923–24 (including Departmental charges) was £203,014, of which £74,258 was for printing done by private firms. The corresponding figures (at as close an approximation as can at present be given) for 1924–25 were £225,838 and £76,964.

Facilities, Inverness

( for Mr. T. JOHNSTON)asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that there is no postal collection at Inverness for the South between 3.45 p.m. on Saturday and 12.38 a.m. on Monday; and what steps, if any, he can take to provide a later collection upon Saturdays?

I am having inquiry made and will write to the hon. Member.

Government Departments

War Office EmployéS (Wages)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is prepared to ensure that all persons in the employment of the War Office in occupations to which the Trade Boards Acts apply shall receive rates of wages not less than the minimum rate of wages fixed for that occupation; and what action he has taken to this effect?

The principle on which the War Office regulates wages is that embodied in the Fair Wages Resolution of this House. In fixing wages in accordance with this principle, regard is had to rates of wages fixed by Trade Boards. I am not aware of any case where the War Office pays less than the minimum laid down by the Trade Board concerned.

Admiralty

( for Mr. W. PRESTON)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the staff of the Admiralty-has increased from 4,366 on 1st August, 1914, to 7,917 on 1st March, 1925, particularly in view of the limitation of naval activities; and on what work this extra staff is employed?

I fear the reply is somewhat long and, if it be the wish of the House, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"]

The reply is as follows:

I presume that my hon. Friend wishes to compare the total staff of the Admiralty (including both headquarters and the outports) on the 1st August, 1914, with the corresponding staff on the 1st March, i925. If this is so, the figures should be 5,321 and 7,971, respectively.

The increase in work which accounts for the larger staff employed falls under two headings:

(1) Increased or new work devolving on the Department as the result of Acts of the Legislature or decisions of His Majesty's Government, such as Pensions Increase Act, Injuries in War Compensation Act, Merchant Shipping (Salvage) Act, 1916, Representation of the People Act, Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, Admiralty Pensions Act, 1921, the introduction of marriage allowance, the payment of naval allotments weekly instead of monthly, the periodical revision of naval officers' pay and allowances, and of civil salaries and wages, the extended use of cost accountancy, etc.

(2) The expansion of the naval staff which was practically non-existent before the War, the development of all technical and experimental services due to the introduction of many new weapons and forms of defence, and the much greater complexity of the equipment of modern war vessels, due largely to the great development of electrical science as applied to the naval service.

These developments are responsible for increases of staff which greatly outweigh reductions possible on account of decrease in naval personnel or of ships in commission.

Mrs. G. M. Bloomfield

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. G. M. Bloomfield, now serving a term of imprisonment for offences committed against her children at a time of great mental strain brought about through unemployment and poverty; and whether in view of the fact that her children have now recovered and of her own previous good character, he will consider the advisability of making further inquiries into Mrs. Bloomfield's case with a view to the remission of her sentence?

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Gertrude Maud Bloomfield, who was recently charged at the Old Bailey with attempted murder and attempted suicide and sentenced to five months' imprisonment; and, in view of the fact that the evidence showed that this woman committed the crime when on the brink of starvation and suffering from lack of food and that a lady and gentleman have offered to take her to their home at South sea, whether he will give consideration to a remission of Mrs. Bloomfield's sentence?

My right hon. Friend is giving this case his careful consideration, and is consulting the Judge.

Betting (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is possible to give an approximate sum which would accrue annually if a 10 per cent. tax were imposed upon betting?

I would refer the hon. Member to the proceedings of the Select Committee on a Betting Duty which sat in 1923. He will find there all the available material for framing an estimate of the revenue to be derived from the tax which he suggests.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that enough money is changing hands at Epsom to-day to pay for Imperial penny postage?

It is doubtful how much fresh money is involved in these recurrent transactions. I will leave the hon. Member to form his own opinion as to the amount.

Royal Irish Constabulary (Pre-War Pensioners)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing amongst the Royal Irish Constabulary pre-War pensioners owing to the hardship imposed by not receiving their pensions in advance; and will he remedy this by paying the pre-War pensioners in advance, as is done in the case of post-War Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners and Army and Navy pensioners?

I have been asked to reply. A number of inquiries have been received with regard to this point. The position is that the present arrangements were established in 1922 by the Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions Order of that year, which provided for the payment in advance of some, but not all. classes of pensions. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is advised that payment in advance of the remaining classes could not be authorised without special legislation, and he is not prepared to ask Parliament to re-open the considered decision then reached.

Silk Duties

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be the effect on his original estimated Budget receipts of the modifications he has made in the duties on silk and artificial silk?

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill.

Otley Sweepstake

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing among those who invested in last year's Derby sweepstake organised by the Otley Unionist Club, and that a trustee was appointed by the Director of Public Prosecutions to deal with the matter and return subscribers' money; will he state how much of this money has been returned to subscribers; and what steps are being taken to complete such arrangements?

I have been asked to reply. I am informed that this business is being carried through with all possible despatch. 81,031 ticket-holders have been repaid their money less their quota of the expenses incurred in winding up this illegal lottery. Over 8,000 tickets remain to be dealt with. Greater dispatch could only be obtained by increasing the staff employed, and, consequently, increasing the expenses, and so diminishing the amount to be distributed among the ticket-holders. I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that, as the ticket holders took part in an illegal proceeding, they are not in law entitled to repayment of any part of the money they paid out.

As there are over 8,000 ticket-holders whose money is at present being withheld from them, does not the hon. Gentleman think that an increased staff, so that these people might get their money back in the shortest possible time, would help matters?

I may mention to the hon. and gallant Member that they are being wiped off at the rate of about 400 a day, and the business is being done as quickly as possible.

Seeing that this was an illegal transaction, may I ask if the Otley Unionist Club is paying anything towards the expenses in connection with this matter?

Can we be assured that the Government are going to no extra expense in connection with the winding up of this illegal lottery, and that no extra charge to the taxpayer will result?

Iraq

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give any particulars as to the recent fighting in Iraq?

As already reported in the Press, a regiment of Levy Cavalry was attacked by Kurdish bands in the neighbourhood of Sulimaniyeh on 20th and 21st May. After some sharp fighting, in which aircraft of No. 1 Squadron, Royal Air Force, co-operated, the attack was repulsed. There were no British casualties, but I regret to state that the Iraq forces lost 10 killed and 18 wounded. The marauding bands suffered materially heavier casualties.

Germany (Hours of Labour)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consider whether in the negotiations at present proceeding with Germany it would be possible to introduce a condition assimilating the hours of labour in German industry with those which prevail in this country?

If the hon. and gallant Member has in mind the discussions arising out of the German proposals on the security question, the occasion is not suited to the object which he has in view.

Morocco

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to negotiations between the Spanish Government and Abdel Krim?

I am not in possession of any trustworthy information on this subject.

Port Labour (Maclean Committee)

( for Mr. B. SMITH) asked the Minister of Labour if he can give any indication as to the progress made in the inquiry by the Maclean Committee on Port Labour appointed early last year; and when the presentation and publication of the Committee's Report may be expected?

( for Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND): In two Interim Reports made in June and July last, and published in the July, 1924, issue of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette," the Maclean Committee made recommendations with a view to the establishment of effective registration schemes, which they regarded as a condition precedent to the formation of any reliable opinion on the question of the "guaranteed week." On 22nd May last the Committee held a further meeting to consider the progress made to date by the National Port Labour Joint Council and by employers' and union representatives in giving effect to those recommendations. I understand that the Committee were satisfied generally with the progress reported to them. I have received a copy of a note which the Committee have had prepared showing the position at each port, and I will send a copy to the hon. Member.

Sugar-Beet Factories (Foreign Machinery)

( on behalf of Mr. PRESTON) asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the potential relief of unemployment, he will ascertain whether any of the plant and machinery now being imported in connection with the construction of sugar-beet factories could be provided here; and whether, if such be the case, he will make representations to the companies concerned?

(Controller of the Household): I have been asked to reply for the Minister of Agriculture. In the circumstances set out in the answer which I gave on Monday to the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Mr. Forrest), my right hon. Friend considered it expedient to exercise his dispensing power under Section 1 (b) of the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act, 1925, in favour of three factories in respect of which commitments had already been entered into. These factory companies are, however, alive to the importance of installing British machinery, and have, it is understood, recently diverted some of their foreign orders. In the case of the other four factories under erection, there is no question of waiving the statutory provision, and my right hon. Friend is assured that the macninery being imported is in the nature of specialised plant which could not have been obtained in this country in time if the factories concerned were to be ready for the 1925 manufacturing campaign, and to give considerable employment to British labour this autumn. The information in my right hon. Friend's possession shows that every effort is, in fact, being made by all the companies now erecting factories to employ British material and British labour where practicable.

Airship Base, India

( for Mr. VIANT) asked the Secretary of State for Air if the site of the airship base in India for the new 5,000,000 cubic feet State airship has been selected as a result of the visit in January last of the Air Vice-Marshal; if any operations have been started; and if sites for mooring masts in other parts, of India have been arranged?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; to the second in the negative. As regards the last part, other sites for mooring masts were examined, but the erection of a mast elsewhere than at Karachi is not contemplated in the first experimental stage.

Can the right hon. Baronet give any approximate idea as to when the first of these airships will be completed?

I would ask my hon. Friend to put down a question to me on that subject, when I will see if I can get any further information.

Besides the mast at Karachi, will there be any intermediate mast in Egypt, Palestine or anywhere else?

Commercial Airship Services

( for Mr. VIANT) asked the Secretary of State for Air if the nights of R.33 has enabled the Air Ministry to form an opinion as to the reliability and safety of airships for commercial service?

The Air Ministry hope to establish the reliability of commercial airship services, not by means of the flights of any particular ship, such as the R.33, but by a comprehensive programme of experiment and research. The break away of the R.33 has, however, demonstrated that a damaged airship can ride out a storm and return safely to her base, and when this ship has been reconditioned she will carry out a further series of flights for the purpose of obtaining certain essential aero-dynamical and other data affecting design, stresses, etc. Our anticipations as to the reliability and safety of the airship for the operation of commercial services are, I think, justified even on a basis of the experience obtained to date; but I should prefer not to treat the matter as proved until one or more vessels have actually been tried out on a commercial route.

Houses of Parliament (Embankment Subway)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the Lord Great Chamberlain has caused the subterranean entrance to the House of Commons from Bridge Street to be barricaded up; and whether steps will be taken to secure the rights of the House of Commons to have complete control over its own premises?

The subway in question, which belongs to the London County Council, is closed pending the execution by them of work in connection with the opening of a portion of the subway to the public. It will be re-opened as soon as this work is completed.

That is not what I asked. I asked about the control of the House of Commons.

As a matter of fact, the subway is the property of the London County Council, but before it was closed the consent of the Lord Chamberlain and the Serjeant-at-Arms was obtained.

Do I understand that the London County Council have a right to close a subway into these premises over the rights and wishes of Members of the House?

I have pointed out that the subway belongs to the London County Council but that Members of the House have a right of way, and before this work was undertaken and the subway was closed the consent of the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Lord Chamberlain was obtained.

Is it not a fact that part of the subway is the property of the London County Council while part belongs to Parliament and the Lord Chamberlain? There are two subways, one leading into the underground railway under the Embankment and the other into the House of Parliament, which are linked up and connected?

The subway I am referring to is the subway between the Stephen's Club and the Boadicea Statue.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a tunnel is being driven towards the House of Commons while we are sitting here, and will he send for the Beefeaters to have the matter looked into?

Motor Speed (Royal Parks)

asked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will consider the advisability of reimposing the 10-mile speed limit on all motor vehicles now permitted to drive in His Majesty's parks?

The First Commissioner does not consider it necessary to reimpose the speed limit of 10 miles an hour in the Royal parks. The police, however, have strict instructions to see that the legal limit be not exceeded.

Dumping of Refuse, Yiewsley

( for Lieut.-Commander BURNEY) asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that London refuse being dumped at Little Britain, in the county of Middlesex, is prejudicing the health of the inhabitants of Yiewsley; and, seeing that the local authorities of Yiewsley have no power under their by-laws to prevent this dumping, whether he is prepared to introduce a Bill during the present Session taking power to safeguard the health of the public in this and similar cases?

My right hon. Friend is aware of the case mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend. The local council have adopted by-laws to prevent nuisances from dumping, and it is proposed to discuss the application of these by-laws with them. My right hon. Friend cannot at present undertake to introduce legislation on the subject.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the danger to public health, and is he prepared to face an epidemic?

I think if the council will follow out the suggestions made in the last part of the question there will be no difficulty in moving the dump under the new by-laws they have now obtained.

New Dock Road, East London

( for Mr. BARNES) asked the Minister of Transport whether he will arrange for the model of the new dock road for East London to be exhibited in the Members' Tea Room to enable Members interested to view?

I shall be very happy to make arrangements in accordance with the hon. Member's suggestion.

Slum Clearance, Shoreditch

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the fact that last evening a house collapsed on the slum clearance area of Ware Street, Shoreditch, and caused injuries to two children; if he is aware that there are other houses on this area in imminent danger of collapse; and if he will make urgent representations to the London County Council to hasten the rebuilding of this slum area in the interests of public safety?

My right hon. Friend's attention had not previously been drawn to this accident, but he has been in communication with the London County Council, who are investigating the matter and will furnish him with a report. My right hon. Friend is assured that the County Council are taking all possible steps to accelerate the acquisition and demolition of the property in this area. I have just received information from the London County Council to the effect that no one was injured, and in pursuance of their statutory powers they are now taking possession of the building.

Agricultural Wages

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the widespread evasion by farmers who refuse to comply with the conditions laid down in the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act, 1924, that his inspectors are ignored by delinquent farmers, who refuse to pay arrears of wages where due, that immediately application is made by one of his inspectors the labourer is dismissed and no arrears of wages are paid, and will he state why Section 9 (4) of the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act has not been enforced?

I regret that I have not received notice of this question or heard anything about it. I will make inquiries.

Notice was sent to the Ministry or the question would not have been submitted. I regret that the letter has not reached the Minister.

The question reached me very late—far beyond the usual time. I was afraid it would not reach the Minister in time.

Is it fair to the great agricultural community that general sweeping assertions of this sort should be made without any particulars being given?

Might I for the benefit of the House state that information is to hand where at least 50 agricultural labourers who have applied for wages which have been settled by their respective Boards have been dismissed, and not only dismissed but turned from their residences as the result of asking for what they are entitled to.

Business of the House

May I ask the Prime Minister if he will state the business it is intended to take when the House reassembles after the Whitsuntide holidays?

We propose to begin the Committee stage of the Finance Bill on Tuesday, 9th June, and continue that stage on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

Resolved,

"That this House do meet To-morrow at Eleven of the Clock; that no Questions shall be taken after Twelve of the Clock; and that at Five of the Clock Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House, without Question put."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Mr. SPEAKER'S ACTION (25th May)

I desire to ask you, Sir, a question relating to procedure in this House, whether your attention has been called to a Motion standing in the names of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith (Captain Benn), the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond), in which a serious charge is formulated against the conduct of Mr. Speaker in the Chair. I desire to ask you if any steps can be taken to bring that Motion forward for discussion before the House adjourns for Whitsuntide?

My attention has been called to the Motion that stands on the Order Paper set down for 9th June. I do not recollect that there has ever been a case of such a Motion being set down for some distant date. It is not possible, of course, except for the Members concerned, to bring back this Motion to an earlier time. I would invite the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith to put down this Motion for to-morrow, so that I may know what the House thinks about it. I understand it will be possible to extend the sitting beyond five o'clock to-morrow till seven, in order to give time for the House to dispose of the Motion, before proceeding to consider the Adjournment. That can only be done by one of the hon. or right hon. Gentlemen whose names are attached to the Motion.

May I ask you, Sir, whether the latest precedent, which I recollect very well, was not a Motion put down by the Irish Members challenging the conduct of one of your predecessors in the Chair, which was equally serious, whether that was not a Motion which was given for a fortnight ahead, whether there are not similar precedents, and whether there is any precedent for insisting that a Motion of this character should be discussed immediately, when naturally Members have made other arrangements. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I can assure the hon. Member that we are not going to shirk this. We are going to bring it forward. But I ask you, Sir, whether the case I have mentioned is not one in which at least a fortnight was taken between the time the Motion was put down and the discussion? It is certainly the latest which is within my recollection when there was a discussion in the House on a similar Motion.

If my recollection be right, the Motion to which the right hon. Gentleman refers was not given time by the then Government. It happened that in the Ballot an opportunity presented itself, and it was in that way that the Motion was brought on. But the Motion on that occasion was not supported by any member of the Privy Council.

May I say that as members of the Privy Council we know our responsibility and are prepared to shoulder it. But may I ask you, Sir, whether the Leader of the Irish party, who represented a nation, did not second that Motion on that occasion and whether other precedents which I might quote are not similarly precedents in which time was given for the discussion of a Motion of this kind and full opportunity elapsed between the Notice of the Motion and the time discussion took place?

I have said it lies in the hands of the Members whose names are attached to the Motion. If they are not willing to bring it forward, the matter rests.

Whilst, of course, joining in what my right hon. Friend has said about having no desire to recede from the terms of the Motion, it was put down for 9th June because the time prior to 9th June had been entirely absorbed, as announced by the Government.

Is it not possible that this question, after the expression of opinion which you, Sir, have given, might be raised as a matter of urgent public importance? The honour of the House, the honour of the Chair and the Rules of Procedure are involved, and if right hon. and hon. Members opposite are unwilling to accede to your request, so plainly expressed, I would ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House on a matter of urgent public import- ance, namely, the necessity of vindicating your honour in the Chair.

No; I cannot say that I consider it is a matter of urgent public importance. I do not think it comes within the limit of the usual interpretation of Standing Order No. 10.

Estimates

First Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read;

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,

Amendments to

Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board: and for other purposes." [Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill [ Lords. ]

Moneylenders Bill [ Lords ].

That they have added two Lords to the Joint Committee to consider of the said Bill, and request the Commons to add an equal number of their Members to the said Joint Committee.

PONTYPRIDD AND RHONDDA JOINT WATER BOARD BILL [ Lords ].

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Ex-Ranker Officers

I beg to move:

In inviting the House to support this Motion, I must remind hon. Members of the history of this claim, and how it arose before they come to a decision. The genesis of it really arose out of a pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Leader of the Opposition during the election of 1923. He gave a pledge that he and his party would support the claims of the pensioned ranker officer if he were returned to power. He was returned to power, but when he was called upon to fulfil the pledge he made an explanation, with which I do not propose to deal, of what he thought was covered by his pledge. Because that was not agreed to by the House, he stated that he would set up an impartial Committee to consider the claim and to advise the House upon them.

He set up a Committee under the chairmanship of Mr. George Barnes, who for many years was an honoured Member of this House, who was the first Minister of Pensions and had experience in these matters, and who was not likely to be unsympathetic with soldiers who have done good service, first in the ranks, and afterwards as commissioned officers. Upon that Committee also were Sir William Finlay, who is now a Judge of the High Court, and Sir Felix Pole, the well-known general manager of the Great Western Railway. It must be admitted that that was a strong Committee. It sat on several occasions and heard evidence, which has been printed and circulated as a White Paper. It heard evidence from the officers, from their representatives and the representatives in the House of Commons who have taken up their case in this House. The reference to that Committee was: to be able to draw their pension for past service, as well as pay for the new work which they were doing.

That was represented to the Government of the day, and a Committee was set up, under Lord Derby, in 1903, to consider what would be the fairest terms for officers and men who, having retired, might in future be brought back to service during a war. The result of that investigation, under the Chairmanship of Lord Derby, was the 1913 Warrant. The 1913 Warrant is described in the Barnes Report and the actual terms of it are there set out. I propose to give the gist of the terms. The 1913 Warrant provided that pensioners who served again in the war should be entitled to continue to draw their old pensions as well as the pay of the rank in which they were commencing to serve again, but that the new service should not count for an addition to the previous pension. That was exactly what those pensioners, who fought in the South African War, had desired to be made applicable to them. It was because at that time it was not applicable that the Derby Committee was set up and this new Warrant was introduced.

We have claims brought before this House, and very powerfully advocated by numbers of Members in this House, many of them speaking with extreme moderation, and many of them, themselves ex-ranker officers, feeling strongly towards men who during the War became officers, with a feeling of solidarity, and a feeling that it is their duty to advocate their claims before this House. We have these claims of 2,500 pensioners who became temporary officers brought before us. 2,000 of the 2,500 had already got pensions before the War broke out. They had already completed their service in the Army as privates or noncommissioned officers, and were drawing pensions at the moment of the outbreak of the War. They rejoined, and were offered temporary commissions on exactly the same terms as civilians who became temporary officers. They accepted those temporary commissions. They continued to draw their non-commissioned officer's pensions, and they drew, in addition, the pay' of their commissioned rank. The form of application for the Commission is headed: Each candidate signed a form which stated:

I hope that I have made it plain that I have been dealing up to this moment with men who became temporary officers who were pensioned before they took their commissions. But there is another class. That is the class of serving soldier who was not discharged to pension, and was never discharged to pension, but who obtained a permanent commission during the War. There were 7,000 of those, and those commissions were limited to serving soldiers. They were never open to soldiers who had already been discharged to pension. There were therefore the two classes. There were the pensioned men who obtained temporary commissions, and the serving soldiers who obtained permanent commissions. That provision was made for them before the War. It was so well known that in the evidence given before the Barnes Committee the terms of those permanent commissions were set out. I will read an extract from page 32 of the evidence:

I will accept that. In 1919 the claim was raised for the first time, and I think that I am right in saying that it was raised after the Marines had been given their pension terms.

My hon. and learned Friend will correct me if necessary, but I believe that I am right in saying that it was raised in consequence of the terms which were granted to ex-ranker officers in the Marines. With regard to the Marines, they were serving under different conditions, both as to pay and as to pension from those who were serving in the Army. And I have, therefore, nothing more to say about that. The claim was first raised on the ground that there was some breach of contract, or breach of understanding, with these ex-ranker officers. That is not now put put forward. I understand now that the findings of the Barnes Committee are acceptable, that they are no longer challenged on any legal ground, but that, on the other hand, the claim now put forward is a moral claim and on equitable grounds, that it is right, that it is equitable that some additional ex gratia payment should be made to these officers, and it is not now said the State has broken a bargain, or that they have been harshly treated, or treated otherwise than in accordance with Regulations.

May I point out there was never any contention as to an agreement? It was put forward on purely equitable grounds from the start.

If that be so, I am very glad to hear it. I thought at one time some hon. Members, perhaps not knowing so much about it as my hon. and gallant Friend does, had said otherwise. The claim put forward now, as I say, is a claim that men who have had the status of officers ought to have that status recognised, and that, whatever they may now be receiving, the pensions should be brought up to a minimum of £100 a year. That is the case with which I now propose to deal.

Before passing to that, will the right hon. Gentleman answer one question if he can, namely, whether any of these 2,500 ex-rankers were injured, and, if so, what pension did they receive?

Of course, if they were injured, they would receive the proper retired pay under the Warrant for their injury.

As an officer, because if they were injured at the time they held a commission as an officer, they would get retired pay as dis- ability pay as an officer. But the claim that is now put forward is a claim that, the status of officers which had been granted to these men, carries with it a certain additional expense in ordinary civil life, a certain necessity to maintain a position which did not exist so long as they were in the ranks, and upon that basis it is suggested that we ought to make up whatever pension they have got to at least £100 a year. That claim was put before the Barnes Committee and was considered by them. In paragraph 24 of their Report, they say:

"Some of the appellants have suffered by virtue of having to relinquish status as well as emoluments to which, as officers, they had become accustomed, and which carried with it certain rights in civil life. This phase of the matter was put to us with some feeling by one of the witnesses. We do not belittle it. And many of them feel keenly the fact that, after rendering distinguished service in the War, their pension, even re-assessed, is so incommensurate with that service."

"One officer, who had risen to high rank, finds his pension increased by 8½d. to a total of 3s. 11d. per day. Some have had much difficulty in finding work. We can only express our regret and say that exactly the same lot has befallen many of the officers who had been civilians or who had been Territorial officers. These have experienced hardship and deprivation just as severe and have made no claim to higher status or retired pay."

That is the whole of the paragraph. With regard to the status claim, I am bound to say that that was present before the Barnes Committee. It was considered by them. Some very striking evidence, indeed, was brought before the Barnes Committee, and, notwithstanding that, they came to the conclusion that the case was not made out. So also was the proposal to give an ex gratia payment to these officers considered by the Barnes Committee—not the proposal to make all pensions up to £100, but another proposal, namely, to give an additional £8 a year of pension for each year of service as an officer. In paragraph 27, the Committee say:

"A suggestion was made to us to the effect that the claimants might be given an extra pension of £8 in respect of each year or part of a year that an Army pensioner or serving soldier had served in commis- sioned rank. But it was made clear to us that this special addition to pension would not satisfy men whose demand is to be given the status and the retired pay of officers. Nor do we ourselves see how, if the principle underlying the demand is admitted, it is possible to confine the addition to the pension to any fractional part of the whole."

And that argument, once it is admitted that there ought to be an ex gratia payment, applies also to the £100. If this House is going to say that an addition ought to be made, it seems almost impossible to believe that ex-ranker officers, some of whom are now getting, say, £98, will be content with an addition of £2, while others who are getting £60 receive an addition of £40, and others who are getting £50 receive an addition of £50. It would be an entirely uneven addition to the pension, and I cannot believe that the ex-ranker officers—

Is it not a fact that all these ex-ranker officers have agreed to accept?

I do not think that is quite correct. I have not the slightest doubt that my hon. and gallant Friend will tell us exactly what has been done. He has done his best to get an agreement, and he has got, I believe I am right in saying, a resolution of the managing committee of the ex-ranker officers saying they will accept it as a final settlement.

The undertaking of the Association as an Association is that they will accept this. Of course, they cannot undertake that any individual member will not make a claim, but, as an Association, it is acceptable to them.

That is the only difference between us. The Association as such would accept, but it is quite obvious they cannot bind all their members, even if all the 2,500 are members of the Association. What the House has got to consider is whether it is going to admit this principle or not, and, if it does admit the principle, it has got to consider what is the fairest way of doing it. Is it a fair way to put £2 on a man's £98, and to put £50 on a man's £50, and so on? In addition to that, if the status of the officer is to be recognised—and that is the claim—it carries a widow's pension, and that is a very serious amount. I have no doubt it will be said—and it is true—that the mere granting of an ex gratia payment, bringing these pensions up to £100 a year, would not exceed in cost £150,000 a year, and, indeed, it may well be something less, say, £125,000 a year. That is true, but the granting of the status of an officer also carries with it a right to a widow's pension, and the calculation has been made in the War Office that the cost of widows' pensions would be at least £1,000,000.

No; the total series of payments would aggregate £1,000.000 But I want to warn the House that we cannot deal with these 2,500 ex-ranker officers, however much our sympathy goes out to them, however much we may like to do so, as if they were the only people who could make claims upon the State for good service. There were 7,000 serving soldiers who were given permanent commissions. Of those, 2,500 either had not sufficient service to obtain retired pay or a pension, and were obliged to accept a gratuity instead, or they elected to accept a gratuity. The result is, that out of the 7,000 ex-ranker officers who held permanent commissions, 2,500 have no pension to-day at all. They never had a right to a ranker's pension, and they did not qualify for an officer's pension, or, if they did, they accepted a gratuity instead, and if you give the status to the officers who held temporary commissions, and with it the right to a widow's pension, what is your answer to the 2,500, who did equally good service—and, I am sure, no one will contradict that— when they come and say, "Our widows must be treated at least as well as the widows of those who held temporary commissions."

For the 2,500 who took a gratuity, the gratuity averaged £800.

The right hon. Gentleman does not mean that the temporary officers received it?

2,500 permanent ranker officers, who did not qualify for pension by service or have the option of retired pay, and retired without pension, received on the average £800 as a gratuity. My point is, that if the 2,500 officers who held temporary commissions are granted the status of officers with a pension for their widows, these 2,500 permanent ranker officers can properly come to us and say, "If you give it to temporary officers, we have done equally good service, and you must give it to us." Unfortunately that is not the end of the catalogue. There are the Territorial officers, who did great peace service as well as great war service. They have no pension. There are the temporary officers, who attained the rank and status of officers, frequently from the ranks. Many a footman and mechanic obtained a commission for gallant service in the field, and retired, perhaps as a major. One in particular whom I know well retired as a lieutenant-colonel. Is he to have the statue of an officer, and is he to have a pension equivalent to that status? If it be said, "But they were only temporary officers; they were not men who had made the Army their profession. They are something apart, whom we need not consider," I ask, "What about the non-commissioned officers who rejoined the Army?"

There were 70,000 retired privates and non-commissioned officers who rejoined in the early stages of the War, and 7,000 retired officers who rejoined in the same way. Many of them, of course, met their deaths on the field, but many survived. They did great service. They rose in rank because of their knowledge. They have left the Army. Are you to say to them that you will recognise the 2,500 temporary ex-ranker officers, but that you will not recognise the fact that the corporal or sergeant who rejoined and served, and left perhaps as quartermaster-sergeant or sergeant-major, is entitled to any increase in pension? Or are you going to open the floodgates and invite them all to come and claim an ex gratia payment? A great many of them—no one can say how many—a great many of the 70,000 who came from the ranks and rejoined will, of courage, make no claim, but 20,000 or 30,000—is that an exaggeration? I do not believe it is, because very few remained in the same rank—they were experienced men and nearly all got promotion of some sort whether they were officers or men—and all of them will be entitled to come for an ex gratia payment without straining our generosity, if we accede to the claim which is now being made. It will be said that there is a difference. It will be said that none of these non-commissioned officers who got promoted in the ranks ever attained the status of an officer, and that, therefore, it is not so difficult for them. I am not sure that the sergeant-major will agree with that description of his service or position. I am not sure that all the officers, many of whom rejoined in the lower ranks and retired as colonels or as major-generals, will feel that the settlement come to in this House is to bind them and prevent their making a claim. I remember that Dr. Macnamara, who was one of the most powerful advocates for the ex-ranker officer when in this House, gave evidence before the Barnes Committee, and when it was put to him, "Do you say that the officer who came back and got promotion is to be content with the pension of his old rank, or do you say that he ought to be entitled to the pension of the higher rank?" he replied, "Of course he should be entitled to the pension of the higher rank, and a claim ought to be made for him." He was asked the same question with regard to the sergeant and the non-commissioned officer. He said, "Of course they will be entitled to the pension of the higher rank, and the claim will be made for them." The Barnes Committee again considered this matter, and paragraph 22 of their Report states: Of course that opens up a vista of increases. There are 50,000 pre-War pensioners who are now Government pensioners, apart from local authorities. They are 50,000 pre-War pensioners who are now getting increases under the Pre-War Pensions (Increase) Act. Those already cost the State well over £1,000,000 a year. But the increase granted to them was on a very much lower scale than the increase granted in 1919 to the ex-ranker officers. There are police, teachers and civil servants, all of them suffering from a 70 per cent. increase in the cost of living and from increased taxation, and amongst them there are plenty of hard cases which would undoubtedly come to us for an ex gratia payment, if once the door were opened. I ask the House to consider for a moment what these 2,500 really got. They got their pre-War pensions reassessed, on the average doubled; they got their pay while they were serving, and when they finished their service they got the gratuity, which was virtually double that which was given to the permanent officer. They got really a very special recognition of their own cases.

I do not pretend that I would not like to give more. I regret very much to have to appear niggardly in dealing with men who have rendered such outstanding service to the State. But it is one thing to be generous with your own money, and it is a totally different thing to be generous with the taxpayers' money. The taxpayer has to be considered. He is suffering from increased taxes, from a rise in the cost of living. Many of them are suffering from unemployment, which is due, at least in part, to the increase in the cost of production, due, in turn, to the heavy burden of taxes. The Government feels that it has no right to depart from the warrants, which clearly set out the conditions of service and the rights of these ex-ranker officers. The Government feels that if it does make such a departure, that will set going a series of claims by tens of thousands of claimants, who can put up cases of hardship, to meet which the taxpayer would have to provide many millions of pounds. They, therefore, ask for the support of the House to the Motion that has been put upon the Paper.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say what was the average amount of gratuity that these ex-ranker officers got?

I cannot say at the moment, but I will make inquiries, and let my hon. Friend know.

I beg to move, in line 3, at the end, to add the words

Let us look back to the time of the South African War. On the conclusion of that war there was an admitted grievance that pensioned officers who had gone to the front after re-engaging did not receive while serving the pay of the rank in which they served, in addition to their pension. That was altered immediately after the war, and was embodied, on the conclusion of the Derby Committee, in the 1913 Pay Warrant, with which we are now dealing. But that Committee and that warrant dealt only with the cases of officers who went back as officers and served as officers, and with the case of non-commissioned officers who went back and served as non-commissioned officers. It dealt in no way whatsoever with the case of non-commissioned officers who went out, and, in the words of the Barnes Report, had no option but to accept commissions. It made no mention of them because the case at that time was not foreseen. It is rather contrary to common sense to judge the case of the Great War with what in history must be regarded as only a small war.

The Secretary of State referred to the position and status of an officer. That is germane to our case. One point which the right hon. Gentleman did not make quite clear is that these people have now the name of officer. They go back into the country with the status of an officer, and they cannot divest themselves of it. Our point is that they have the status without the means of keeping up the status. The right hon. Gentleman also said that if this ex gratia payment were given, there would, of course, be inequalities in its application, that is to say, that the man who now receives £98 would get only £2, the man receiving £40 now would get £60 added, and the men, if any, who now receive £150 would get nothing at all. That, of course, is an integral part of the Pensions Regulations throughout all the Services. A flat rate of pension exists for the regular officer in all the Services—the £150 rate—and all we are asking now that the £100 rate should be treated in exactly the same way as is the £150 rate in its application to the regular officer. I do not think the Secretary of State for War made quite clear the position of the serving officer who got a commission during the War. He has, of course, received a full measure of everything that one would have expected him to receive. He got a permanent commission, with all its advantages of status, pension and so forth. He got more. I believe I am right in stating that when he said this was not sufficient, he received, instead of the ordinary gratuity of £1,000, an increased gratuity of £1,500.

Similarly, there is the case of the ranker officer who was not pensionable and to whom the right hon. Gentleman referred when he said he got an average gratuity of £800. I think the figure is possibly a little higher, but the point I want to make is that this was a special gratuity owing to the fact that these men had served as officers. There, again, they were getting a measure of justice which is on all fours with the measure of equity and justice for which we are now pleading on behalf of these ex-ranker officers. The argument has been advanced that these men were in fact civilians, and should only get the same treatment as other civilians who came forward and got temporary commissions during the War. That argument is not in accordance with the facts. These men are professional soldiers; they had pensions before the War, and they were known throughout the country to be professionals. More than that, on their pension paper was included a statement that they were liable to recall, and in certain cases the officers commanding their units did in fact recall them to the Colours, although most of them forestalled the recall by volunteering.

The Barnes Committee's Report has some very significant remarks bearing on our claim, and I would say that we accept the Report to this extent, that the Committee went into the legal claim of these officers and found, as anyone would have expected, that these officers had no legal claim. The reason for this is not that the regulations are drawn up so as to bar these officers. It is simply because in the framing of the regulations their case was never considered. There is neither a regulation including them, nor a regulation absolutely debarring them; they are simply omitted. During the War, when certain serving officers were offered regular commissions, we have the best authority for believing that the case of these Army pension ranker officers was simply omitted from consideration. Had any one of them been serving as a noncommissioned officer, and asked for the same treatment as their ranker serving confreres, there is, I think, no doubt but that they would at that time have received the same pension rights and pension rules as the serving officer. The Secretary of State for War, I think, did mention the treatment accorded to naval and marine officers, but he did not mention that those officers received a rate of pension—with all its corresponding advantages—far higher than that desired by those who were advocating their case and higher than they themselves deserved in the strictly legal sense of the term. They, however, had the advantage of advocacy far more powerful than mine, because I believe that the First Lord of the Admiralty at the time when that concession was granted was the present Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I would now turn to the moral reasons on which we base our claim. The Amendment says that circumstances are unique, and I would ask the House to folclow me while I explain why, in my view, those words are justified. The first principle of pensions in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force is qualifying service. We are not asking on behalf of these officers that you should admit to the pensions establishment officers who are not already entitled to pensions. We are only asking that those who, by service, are already entitled to pensions should have those pensions brought up to a scale suitable to the status which they are required to maintain. The circumstances are also unique in this respect—that if you look through the conditions applying to all other officers and men, pensionable or not pensionable, who served in the War, you will find no others in any service who received such treatment as these men. It was not harsh treatment in the sense that they were "done out" of anything to which they were entitled, but it was ungenerous treatment in the sense that they got only that to which they were strictly entitled and not one penny more. Every other class did, in fact, get some increased benefit.

I turn to the real reason why the Government find it difficult to meet this claim. It is, of course, the fear of consequential claims. There is no member of the Government, no Member of the House, probably no one in the country, who would not be prepared to give the very small amount required to satisfy this just and moral claim were it not for the danger of consequential claims. The Barnes Committee Report says so.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman trying to make the point that there is a distinction between the temporary officer and the rankers for whom he is pleading? If the latter have already got pensions, are those the pensions of officers or the pensions of privates and other ranks?

No, Sir, that is not my point. My point is that the temporary officer who got a commission and served for four years is not entitled. Even had he been a regular officer he would not have been entitled to pension, because he had not the necessary amount of qualifying service. Had he been a ranker officer, without the qualifying amount of service, he would have had to accept his gratuity and go. That is a condition which runs all the way through all Government services. There is a minimum number of years' service before a man is entitled to a pension. With a few years less than the minimum service he can get a gratuity, and below that he gets nothing. That point cannot be too strongly emphasised, because it puts out of court any consequential claim in this respect. The territorial officer who has not 15 years' embodied service, and cannot have that period of service, will not be able to come in, and it also puts out of court any chance of a consequential claim from the temporary civilian officer.

There remains, of course, the question of whether the ranker officer, apart from the pensioned ranker officer, can make a claim. The Secretary of State for War referred to the fact that there were 2,000 of these officers who had not received pensions. The reason why they did not receive pensions was because, under regulations which have existed for a long time they had not completed the pensionable term of service. In spite of that, the Government of the day very rightly gave them an enhanced gratuity as officers in gratification of the partial claim which they had to pensions in respect of the number of years which they had served. I cannot think that there is any other consequential claim which could arise inside the Services. There is the case of the pensioned officer who came forward and who drew his pension while he was serving, in addition to his pay, retired with a high gratuity and went back to the pension at which he began. I would, however, ask the House to look at this point of view. Those officers who have grown up inside the officer class do not change their status. No further increase in their status is required because they have retired as colonels or majors. There is another point of almost equal importance. Consider the fact that these officers drew pensions while they were serving, and then take into consideration the gratuity on the higher scale, and you will find, in point of fact, that these officers would probably not stand to gain sufficient benefit to induce them to put forward any claim whatever. If they did so I think the answer to them would be that their case could not be in any way consequential on a claim which was based essentially on the change of status from the non-commissioned rank to the commissioned rank in any of the Services of the Crown.

There arises, of course, the question of whether in these hard times the Government can afford the money required to carry out the compromise which we are advocating. The figure has been put at £150,000, but if the figure of widows' pensions is included—although that inclusion is not in the compromise as we originally suggested it—although that estimated by the right hon. Gentleman to bring it to £1,000,000 a year. I cannot accept that figure as correct, having regard to the facts. These officers are now all necessarily advanced in years. Many of them have acquired, or will when the die have acquired, pension rights for their widows on a slightly lower scale than the corresponding pensions in the case of officers. Those who have not that right at present will in due course find themselves receiving some measure of relief. Surely, even if the figure were a capitalised sum of £1,000,000, that is no reason why this measure of justice should be refused, if the Government consider the grant of widows' pensions to be integral in this compromise, and personally I am not prepared to consider that it is. The Secretary of State for War touched on the question of whether this compromise would satisfy this class of officers. I ventured to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman to point out that the association as a whole had accepted this compromise and had said that if it were granted—as I hope it will be—they would disband their association and desist from agitation in any form whatever.

I would ask the House to bear this in mind. The representatives of that association, with whom I had these meetings, were, one and all of them, men who were already in receipt of such a pension that the compromise would not give them one penny more than they get now. They were already, as warrant officers, I think, all of them receiving pensions of more than the £100 basis, yet those controllers of this organisation were so convinced of the justice of the claim, and so anxious to do their best for their weaker brethren in poorer circumstances, that they were prepared, and are prepared now, to accept this compromise, to disband their association if it is granted, and themselves to give up all hope of getting any further claims which they might have. The question of a legal claim has never been in debate since I have been in touch with this question. I first touched it at the last General Election. I was asked, as all candidates were, to pledge myself to support this claim, and I refused to give any such pledge, but I undertook, if I were returned to Parliament, to examine the case afresh and with an absolutely unbiased mind, and I guaranteed that, if I came to the conclusion that there was anything in the claim, then, and then only, would I see what I could do to help them. That examination led me to the conclusion, from which I have not departed and from which, even after the speech of the Secretary of State for War, I see no reason to depart, that, as regards the legal claim, there was not a case which could be taken into a Court, but, as regards the moral claim, I think it is without any doubt stronger and is unique in its strength with regard to the servants of the Crown during the Great War.

If we are going to reject this claim on the ground of consequential claims, or if we are asked to reject it on the ground of expense, I would ask the House to remember that we, as a nation, and as a party, take great credit that even now, in this period of industrial depression, we are prepared to spend large sums of money to redress our social evils. Are we going to take credit for that and, at the same time, refuse this very small sum to these servants of the State who have done their best for us during the Great War? We take credit that we are fulfilling our obligations to those overseas, we take credit that we fulfilled in 1914 the obligation of the "scrap of paper," and in the face "of that, are we going to turn down this moral claim, with which, I am quite sure, everyone in the House is in sympathy, through the fear of consequential claims which are, at the best, hypothetical, and which are, in all probability, mythical? There is, so far as I know, at the present moment no indication from any part of the community that any consequential claim will be based upon this compromise, if it be granted. There was a letter which came, and which the Secretary of State for War allowed me to see, saying that the Rankers' Association would certainly bring a consequential claim if this were granted. I have a letter, on the other hand, from the chairman of that association, disavowing all knowledge of that letter whatsoever. I cannot believe that the ranker officer would, even if he could, base any consequential claim whatsoever on the granting of a compromise of this sort. In spite of all that has been said by the Secretary of State for War, I would still ask the House if they cannot see their way to accept the Amendment and to grant this measure of elementary justice to the Army pensioned ranker officer.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I have always contended that the terms of reference to the Barnes Committee were too narrow to deal with all the points in the claim put forward. The terms of reference to that Committee, as read by the Secretary of State for War, were— civilians, three honourable men, thoroughly versed in ordinary affairs, but not technically acquainted with military matters, and, therefore, unable to realise the technical points which must arise in a discussion of that sort.

What is the claim? It is put forward in the Barnes Report as treating simply with the two first classes that I have mentioned, under Article 572A, but that seems to me to be an incomplete summary of the claim. The claim surely is that the claimants are in equity to be treated on the same terms as time-serving soldiers who were granted permanent or temporary commissions. The terms of reference do not refer to the temporary commissions granted in 1918. The Secretary of State for War did not, I am sure, wish to mislead the House when he said we had always argued that there was a contract. From the very first time, in 1920, when I took up this case I have always argued that this was one to be treated rather as a matter of equity than of contract or regulation, and I would point out that, if you come to the strict terms of the agreement, never in the history of the Army has there been a temporary officer before, and, therefore, there can have been no regulation affecting the claims of the men for whom I am appealing this afternoon. The pensioners were liable to serve, having received an Army pension, for if they had not come forward when called upon, they might possibly have forfeited their pensions, but the Barnes Committee, in their Report, in paragraph 9, admit that these men had "morally and practically … little choice but to accept" the demand of their country to come out and serve. As a matter of fact, these men did come out, at the behest of Lord Kitchener, to train Kitchener's Army. They were very much wanted at that time, and I consider that we are rather splitting straws when we talk about these men having been dealt with by the Government according to the full measure of the arrangement.

Reference has been made to the fact that these Army pensioned men who came out and received temporary commissions were retired on much better terms, and received much better terms during their service, than the men who received permanent commissions. When this case was first presented to Lord Derby, when he was Secretary of State for War, a state- ment, prepared by a very well accredited Army officer who was thoroughly acquainted with the War Office routine, showed conclusively that up to the time of demobilisation the men who received permanent commissions from the ranks and the men who received temporary commissions had been treated almost on all fours. There was not a £5 note difference between them. The men who received the permanent commissions got a larger allowance for clothing, but did not get quite so large a gratuity. The one thing balanced the other. We showed that statement to Lord Derby at the time, and it was clearly proved that, up to the time of demobilisation, the men who from the ranks received permanent commissions and the men who received temporary commissions had practically received the same payment, and why, therefore, make a distinction when they are demobilised? It seems to me that the claim of these temporary officers to retired pensions on the same basis as the men who received permanent commissions is unassailable. They were all elderly men, and the Committee said, in paragraph 10, that these officers the trenches, practically, a year before untrained to arms at all, and were able to hold back the great German fighting machine. No better testimonial could be given to these ex-non-commissioned officers.

5.0 P.M.

I see that the Barnes Committee, in paragraph 17, make a curious reference to the grant made to naval men. They state that extra money was given to the naval people because their numbers were so small. Surely that is an infamous doctrine to put forward, that the measure of justice extended to a smaller class cannot be extended to a larger class because the latter is too numerous. That is a very poor argument for the Barnes Committee to have used, and it illustrates my point that these distinguished gentlemen were not used to Service affairs at all. In paragraph 28 the Report makes comparisons with the services and hardships of the claimants with others who served in the Great War. The statement has been made that these men were quite prepared to go to the front if they had the opportunity. I am sure all of us who are interested in this matter would desire to pay a tribute to the Secretary for War for the very moderate and fair way he presented the case to-day. I know his sympathies are to a large extent with the ranker officers, but we are living in days, although we talk about democracy, when Government Departments are very much under the influence of the bureaucracy. The permanent officials in our Government Departments consider the details of these things, and a Minister of the Crown, however faithful he may be in any particular matter put before him, has to accept the advice of the permanent officials.

In this particular case the question of cost has come in on many occasions. When I first went before Lord Derby on this matter, I was told by the officials that the total cost of giving these 2,500 ranker officers the status of officers and a minimum of £150 a year would be something a little over £1,000,000. At a subsequent interview I was told that it might cost £10,000,000. Now we are told to-day by the Secretary for War that if this, status is given the pensions to the widows alone would cost a million. That does not seem to me to reflect very much credit on the calculating efforts of the officials who are advising in this matter. I was referred to an official by Lord Derby, and I was told that if this scheme had been put forward in the early part of 1919 there would have been no difficulty about it at all. But I do not see that this nation to-day is in a position to be more ungenerous than in 1919. I claim that these officers have done yeoman service for the Crown. They trained for the great Army, and they have the support, not only of distinguished military officers in this House, but the support of Field-Marshal Earl Haig, who has sent a letter, which says: a discussion on the Army Estimates, that, as a result of pressure from this side, a distinct promise was made by the Leader of the Labour party that there should be a free discussion and a free vote on this question.

During the last Election it was my duty, in view of the pressure put upon me by some of my constituents as to what would be the action of my party, if returned to power, to make some inquiry into it. I sent a letter to the chairman of my party and asked him what would be the position. Could I make a promise that if we were returned to power, we should give the same free vote as had been promised by the Labour party? The reply I received was: "Certainly, every opportunity will be given for discussion." [ Laughter ] Hon. Members opposite laugh when I say that I thought that meant we should have a free discussion. I told my electors that certainly they would get a free discussion. I must express my keen disappointment that we have treated this question in this way. I myself consider that the total cost would not have amounted to much more than £1,250,000 to £1,500,000, and that would have been spread over 20 to 30 years. It is a very poor recognition of the wonderful services these gallant men made. I trust that no man will consider that I am disloyal to the party to which I am proud to belong, but I shall esteem it my duty on this occasion to support the Amendment in the Lobby. We feel that these Army pensioned ranker officers have a claim upon the people of this country which is, in all respects, to my mind, one which ought to be considered, whatever may be the party to which one belongs.

I hope the House will allow me to intervene in this Debate for a few moments. There are many Members in the House this afternoon who will find themselves in a dilemma; first of all because they firmly believe—rightly or wrongly—that there was a bond existing between the ex-ranker officers and the Government; and, secondly, because they are firmly convinced that the findings of the Barnes Committee are wrong. I myself was a signatory to a memorial which had been sent to Members of Parliament in support of the Amendment which is before the House now, and when the Division comes, I shall without any hesitation go into the Lobby in favour of that Amendment. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has given us ladle-fulls of sympathy this afternoon. I am not going to revive old controversies about pledges. I understand the ambit of discussion this afternoon is confined to this point. If these men have not got a legal claim, they have got a moral claim upon the State to see that justice is done to them. Let me deal with that point.

The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War made a speech which, it is due to him to say, was in the nature of a piece of special pleading. He attempted, in my opinion, by trying to include in the controversy cases which are not at all on parallel lines to obscure the issues. He mentioned that there were three types of pensioners who received commissions during the War. My right hon. Friend tried to argue that there was no distinction in essence between these three sets of men. They were all serving soldiers, as I shall point out. Let me take the first case. My right hon. Friend dealt at great length with the ex-ranker who received a permanent commission. That is a case where I am very glad to find, as he is aware, the man has no complaint to make. He served his time in the ranks, and now, after the War, he is enjoying the status, honour and glory of being a permanent officer in His Majesty's Army. Let me take the second ease. My right hon. Friend attempted to prove that the case of the civilian temporary officer was on "all-fours" with that of the professional ranker officer. I do not agree with that. The civilian who entered the army, got, it is perfectly true, a temporary commission. The blue form with which many of us are acquainted, and which the right hon. Gentleman read from this afternoon, was submitted to all those who got either a temporary commission, a permanent commission, or a ranker officer's commission. The man who got a temporary commission never expected to remain in the army, but got the temporary commission only for the duration of the War. And all that the man thought of was to do well while he held the Commission, and to hope for an early day of peace. The case of the ranker who became an officer during that period is entirely different. My right hon. Friend said that these men were discharged with pension on the acceptance of the commission, but he knows as well as I do that the discharge of pension of a soldier at that time and the acceptance of a commission was really one act, simultaneous in its operation; the man knew perfectly well that the discharge to pension was a mere form, and that the moment he got his equipment ready, he could call himself an officer of the British Army. What are the facts? My right hon. Friend went on to say that the man who was discharged to pension and got a commission was in the same category and had the same claim as a temporary officer, and no more. When my right hon. Friend says that they accepted a commission he is begging the whole question. Many of these men, no doubt, would have' liked a commission, but the vast majority were far better off as non-commissioned officers than they would ever be financially by becoming temporary officers of commissioned rank. They had the separation allowance. They had no necessity to spend extra upon the social life which an officer is expected to maintain. It is a well-known fact that many of them did not accept but were induced to accept commissioned rank at that time. The vast majority would have preferred to remain, doing the excellent work they were doing in the non-commissioned ranks. The Government at that time, and I think I may fairly claim to speak with a certain amount of knowledge, were anxious, indeed eager, to acquire the services of those men in the commissioned ranks and they were induced to accept commissions when in reality they themselves, in the main, would have preferred to remain in the positions which they had obtained in the non-commissioned ranks by their own service and their own merits. It is rather a sad story to find a very powerful Government and a very powerful Department coming forward at this time of day and saying that these men knew what they were doing. In my judgment the vast majority of these men did not know what they were doing from the point of view of the financial arrangement that was to be made for them. Many of them were serving in the various theatres of war all over the world. It is true that a great many of them were in the Special Reserve Force at home, as my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken has pointed out; but if they were it was through no fault of their own, but because, owing to the excellence of their service in the past, they were most useful for the training and the equipping of the armies about to go abroad. These men expected the State to deal honourably and fairly by them. They never expected that one category of ex-ranker officers would receive a certain amount of retiring allowance which they themselves were not likely to receive.

The fact is that there were two crises—one in 1914 and one in 1918. The British Army had great need of officers, and the War Office, with the full approval of the Government, induced every non-commissioned officer to take a commission. My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well that—

Exactly. But my point is that those men were induced to accept temporary commissions with a promise that they would receive £150 a year retiring allowance or retired pay.

But the men for whom we are pleading to-day were also non-commissioned officers, and the Government of the day, and, indeed, the taxpayers upon whom my right hon. Friend is relying to-day, would have seen to it at that psychological moment that they too would be provided with the same allowance. In the stress and strain of the Spring of 1918 the facts were known neither to the taxpayers nor to the ex-ranker officers, but, had they been known, is there a single man in this House who would not have said at that time, "By all means give it to these men, who have done so much for the Army and the country. Nothing is too good for them"?

There has thus been an unjust and unfair differentiation between certain men who received £150 a year in retired pay and men of the same class who are far more entitled to it because they were serving from 1914 to 1918. The House of Commons is a generous assembly, and I make bold to say that if this case had been made out in 1918 the Secretary of State for War would not have dared to stand up and try to differentiate between the two classes; and I am sure that on this occasion, even seven years after the War, the heart of the British taxpayer, if allowed to express itself in the House of Commons, will be generous too. I do not think my right hon. Friend, or any Government which he represents, has a right to come forward after these men have done their part for their country and, forgetting all that, rely upon the British taxpayer as being the one person who is refusing, if not justice, certainly their moral claim. I would appeal to my right hon. Friend. I know that he himself has got great sympathy with their claim, and quite rightly too. I appeal to him to-day. If the Government are not prepared to give the full amount to which these men are entitled, let them act in the spirit of the House of Commons as a whole, because he may take it from me that if there were no party Whips to-day he would be alone in the Lobby. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] My right hon. Friend has said that this claim was practically trumped up after the—

I never said anything of the sort. The right hon. Gentleman must not misquote me. I never used the words "trumped-up." A trumped-up claim is a very nasty claim. To use that expression suggests that I was casting aspersions on the men.

I am sure my right hon. Friend will forgive me. It is the last thing in the world I would impute to him. Certainly he never used the words "trumped-up," but my recollection of his speech and the tone of his speech is that, turning round, he said to hon Members behind him: "This claim would never have been heard of had it not been that a similar claim, without an iota of difference, was granted when the Marines applied for it." The suggestion made with regard to the Marines' claims is that they were granted because the men who applied were few in number. I make bold to say that that contention will be re- garded by the House of Commons and by the country as a whole as laughable. If a thing is right, it is immaterial how many men claim it; and when we have got dual support for our contention to-day, first in the fact that in 1918 ex-ranker officers of the same position as those for whom we are appealing got £150, and, second, that Marines in the same position got their retiring allowance on the officers' full scale, how can anybody stand at that box and refuse to admit that contention because, forsooth there may be consequential claims? Consequential claims have been a gigantic bogey in this case, from beginning to end. Either a thing is right or wrong. I maintain, and so do all my colleagues on this side of the House, and indeed, Members in all quarters of the House, that if the Government of the day thought it right and just and binding to make these terms with these men in 1918, and if the Government of the day thought it right and just and binding to make these terms with Marines of the sister service at the same time, it must, therefore, be right and binding upon them, as men of honour and as representing the real interests and the generous heart of the taxpayers, to see that these men whose position is identical should get their claims righted

I have tried to understand the claims which were being made on behalf of these ex-ranker officers, but I must confess that after listening to the speeches this afternoon I have still to learn that they have a claim over and above that of thousands of other men who gave themselves to their country at that time. My party have said to every one of us, " You are free to go into which Lobby you like." I should like to have to go into no Lobby. It would have been very pleasant to hear that the Government, having surveyed the whole of the circumstances, were in a position to recommend this compromise, but the Government are responsible for the finances of the country, and I recognise that they could not leave out of consideration any consequential cases that may arise through an imprudent step this afternoon, and if we have to go into the Lobby I shall go into the Lobby with the Government as against the ex-ranker officers. I should have to do that if my own party were sitting opposite this afternoon, and were having to defend the position, because if there is one thing I detest, it is playing the party game by voting for a thing when you are in opposition and refusing to vote for it when you are in office. We ought to treat these things upon their merits, and deal with them as we should do whether we are in office or not.

The right hon. Member for Boss and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) has been seeking to draw a contrast between the various types of officers that served during the Great War. In the last sentences of his speech he said: "You, or the Government of the day, made a bargain with ex-rankers in 1918, and they got preferential treatment to the extent of a retiring allowance of £150." Then he goes on to make what is, to my mind, an amazing deduction, saying that because we entered into certain conditions with a comparatively few men at that date that abrogates all the conditions applying to ex-ranker officers who have been serving during the greater part of the War. It could not do anything of the kind. Happy conditions were laid down for those few men, and most of us would like to have seen them applied to everyone else. But they did not apply to everyone else, and the fact remains that the conditions of that day, applying to these comparatively few officers, could not abrogate the conditions which apply to the remainder who were not so fortunate as these few.

Let us look at the case as it actually is, in all its stages. When it is said that this claim is put forward on the grounds of justice, I fail to see where the question of justice comes in. If the claim be put forward on the grounds of generosity, I can quite understand it, but on the grounds of justice I cannot understand it, because I fail to distinguish between the civilian who took a temporary commission and the ex-ranker who took a commission. The ex-ranker officer had served, undoubtedly, for a long period as a ranker. At the time when he ceased to be a ranker, the whole of his service was ended so far as the Government was concerned, and he was paid a pension for it. For example, A and B take commissions. A is a man who has rendered long service as a ranker, it has been recognised, and a pension has been paid for it, and the pension is running on when he takes his commission. B is a civilian who takes a commission. From that moment they both start equal. Not a single speaker on this question has ever been able to point out the least difference between A and B, starting from that point.

The Mover of the Amendment said that the standard by which they judged their particular case was the qualifying period of service. I submit if that is the criterion by which the ranker officer is going to be judged, then it must lamentably fail. When does the qualifying service of the ranker officer begin? It begins the moment he leaves the ranks and comes to his commission. We all recognise the meritorious service which the Government have recognised by granting the pension, and the pension went on right through the service when the officer held his commission. Consequently, the only deduction that you can draw is that, so far as the qualifying service is concerned of the ranker officer and the civilian who has taken a temporary commission, the qualifying period of service should be equal in both cases.

If the Government recognise on grounds of justice, equality and qualifying service the right of the ex-ranker to a pension, they must also recognise the right of the civilian officer who left his job to come and take a commission, and his claim must be recognised upon equal grounds. It has been put forward that there is a distinction, and it has been stated that they had no option in accepting a commission, and that they were under compulsion, to accept it. Is that not true of a good many civilian officers? What is there to distinguish the ex-ranker from the civilian in that respect? The civilian had little or no choice. Either he had to go as a private or take up a commission if qualified. From that point of view I fail to see any distinction between the ex-ranker officer and the civilian officer who served during the period of the War.

I should like to have felt that the Government were in a position financially to have done what has been asked for. I recognise from the speech of the Secretary of State for War that it is an impossibility for them to do this thing, and give a measure of justice to all possible claims that might be made, and that if they begin to open the door they would be inundated with claims from every section of the ranks. Everyone who looks at this matter should put before them this simple question, Can we do this and do equal justice to all the men who served during the War who would have an equal claim based upon equal service? The answer to that question from a financial point of view seems to be that we cannot. Consequently, if we cannot do it for all, what right have we to do it for a comparatively few?

It is said that it is theirs by right of service rendered, and that these officers were in a special position and had to train the soldiers during the War. None of us deny that, but what we do say is that it is only what hundreds of thousands of other men had to do during the War. Men were called from the farms, factories, and warehouses, and they took up commissions, and they did exactly the same service. Not only this, but they took the gratuity at the end of the War. I know some of these rankers were raised to officers, and now they are cast down again and cannot maintain their status. We should all be very happy if every man who held a commissioned rank could still hold his status, but there were men who rose to very high positions in a very short time and yet afterwards they had to go back to the job they had before. These men held responsible positions as officers during the War, and now they have got no jobs at all. And therefore upon those grounds a case cannot be made out. I should have been Very pleased if the Government could have done what has been asked, but the Government say they cannot do it, and at the same time do justice to everybody. All I have to say in conclusion is that if I have to vote I shall vote in the same way that I should have done if a Labour Government had been in office, and I shall support the Government in regard to this question.

In rising to support the Amendment which was so ably moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dumfries (Brigadier-General Charteris), I claim that indulgence of the House which is always so generously given to a Member addressing it for the first time. The ex-ranker officers' claim, as we all know, was examined very impartially and fully by the Barnes Com- mittee, and they came to the conclusion that it could not be legally sustained. We accept that decision, but I do respectfully submit to the House that in equity that decision fails to accord justice to this class of officer who gave, if we put it at its very least, most valuable service to the country in its time of need.

We think the Barnes Committee, by its constitution, without having any professional military members upon it, was not well qualified to appreciate to the full the cleavage which is made when a professional soldier is promoted from noncommissioned or warrant rank to that of a commissioned officer. That difference operates not only while he is in the Service, but is carried on when he returns to civil life. Therefore we think that this question of status is, from the soldier's point of view, of very definite importance. The War Office make a great point that these men signed an Army form accepting a temporary commission, and that the Army form clearly set forth that the temporary commission should not carry with it pension rights. That is quite true, but with many of us who really know what these War Office forms are it does not carry much weight. I am quite certain that not one soldier in a thousand could have anticipated that the country, after profiting by the skilled professional service which these ranker officers gave in the time of the country's need would allow its financial experts to read into that word "temporary" a meaning which practically deprives them of any recognition for the valuable services which they gave, and which it is generally acknowledged were indispensable to the country at the time they gave them.

I am perfectly certain, from what I know of my fellow-soldiers, that the men themselves never thought for a moment about this. They thought far more of doing their duty as they saw it to their country in a time of stress, and they never thought for one moment what they were going to get themselves afterwards. They simply understood that they were to be given commissioned rank, and that conveyed, as it would to any soldier, that they would get all the prestige and material benefit which in the eyes of the soldier appertains to the commission of His Majesty the King. Having been given that commission, and given it to enable them to perform service which the country needed, they do not understand now why they should be practically deprived of their rank when their services are no longer required. I contend that these men differ in every essential from that vast mass of patriotic civilian gentlemen who came forward in the War to take commissions. The professional soldier was able to bring immediately to the work which he had to do a lifelong training and skilled service. This the civilian naturally could not do without a long period of apprenticeship. These professional soldiers were utilised and their knowledge was utilised to train all the gentlemen who came up to take commissions in the new armies, and without that professional knowledge those armies would not have become as efficient as they did in such a short time, and it would otherwise have taken a period running probably into months before they could have been put into the field.

There were, I think, during the War, two outstanding critical periods. The first was after the second Battle of Ypres, and the second was in the early days of March, 1918. After the retreat of the Fifth Army in March, 1918, the War Office called for volunteers from the ranks to become officers, and they gave those gentlemen who came forward temporary commissions, carrying rights of pension. They justified that by saying that the critical need of the time rendered necessary the giving of those commissions, and the conditions which were attached to them because trained officers were absolutely urgently required. I know that the Secretary of State for War has told us that only six of those gentlemen received commissions; the rest of the selected non-commissioned officers were sent to the cadet colleges for training, and the War came to an end before their training was finished. Still, the principle remains that the critical conditions of the time justified the giving of temporary commissions to which pension rights were attached. The crisis after the second Battle of Ypres was, I consider, and I think it will be generally agreed, as great as, if not greater than, the crisis which arose in March, 1918, when we had a vast Army in the field who had proved their mettle through four or five years of active service.

After the second Battle of Ypres, the old Expeditionary Force, after months of very bitter fighting against overwhelming numbers, had been very much reduced by casualties, and had practically reached the limit of its endurance. Between the German hordes and their objective, the Channel ports, lay nothing but a very slender army without reserves, and really the only thing that stood to oppose the Germans was the old spirit of the old Regular Army. The need for reinforcements at that time was absolutely urgent and vital, and the only place where those reinforcements could be looked for was the mass of patriotic, untrained men, who were flocking to the Colours in response to Lord Kitchener's appeal to the country, and the only people capable of training those men were the pensioned regular officers who formed the great majority of the ex-ranker officers for whom we are pleading to-day. Therefore, we think that their service in training that Army was as great as any service that could be offered to the country at that time.

We, therefore, think the War Office is hardly justified in differentiating between, the professional rankers to whom they gave temporary commissions in 1918, and these ranker officers who received temporary commissions in the crisis of 1914 and 1915. We fully recognise the difficulty which confronts the Secretary of State for War, and recognise the sympathetic way in which he has received all these petitions; but we do not think that any consequential claims can be urged with anything like the same force that attaches to the. claims of those ex-ranker officers who came up in 1914 and 1915. We are not really asking the Government to go altogether outside their Regulations, for we are only appealing to them to recognise by an ex gratia payment the services which were rendered by those officers, and which I contend could be rendered by nobody else at the moment. We know that the country is not unmindful of the services which were rendered to it by its fighting forces in the Great War, and I think we further know that it does not desire to render only lip service, but wishes to reward those services in a concrete and practical form. Therefore, I appeal with confidence to hon. Members of this House to treat these ex-ranker officers, not only with bare justice, but in the same spirit of generosity with which they gave their professional skill to their country in its time of need; and I would ask the House to remember that that professional skill had been attained by a lifelong training, and that it was given to the country without measure and without stint, and without any thought of the future.

I am sure the House will agree with me in congratulating very heartily the hon. and gallant Member for Northampton (Sir A. Holland) on the way in which he has pleaded the case of the ex-ranker officers. Having served for the greater part of my life as an officer in the Regular Army, I am equally in sympathy with the Amendment before the House. But we have to take another view of this case. We have to consider our position here as Members of the House of Commons. After all, we represent the people of this country, and the finances of the country are more or less in our hands, and we cannot allow our hearts to do what they sometimes dictate. I feel very deeply on this matter, and I feel rather on the horns of a dilemma, because I promised the hon. and gallant Member who introduced the Amendment that I would support, as far as I was able, his second Amendment for giving £100 as a general pension to the ex-ranker officers. The difficulty of this, however, is insurmountable. It has been pointed out by the Secretary of State for War in such a way that it must be clear to everyone in this House that it is quite impossible to comply with that.

I want to clear up one or two small points which I think the House has not quite grasped. First of all, let me say that there was no non-commissioned officer in the Army while I was serving in it— and I was serving in it only five years ago—who did not know perfectly well the Regulations in regard to pensions and retired pay for an officer. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) used the expression "retired allowance," but there is no such thing as a retired allowance. There are only two things, and every noncommissioned officer knows them perfectly well. The one is the pension that the private, the non-commisioned officer, or the officer gets, and the other is retired pay, which is not a pension at all. Retired pay is really the pay which an officer has earned and which has been put aside for him so that he may have it when he reaches a certain age and is no longer able to serve, and in the old days it was very necessary, because an officer's pay when I joined was 5s. 3d. a day, out of which he had to find his uniform, horse, equipment, and all the rest of it. Retired pay, therefore, is a totally different thing from pension.

There was not one of those non-commissioned officers who did not know, when he was asked to take a commission, that he was getting a temporary commission, and that he had no possible chance of ever getting anything in the form of retired pay; and he also knew that he could not get any other pension than the pension laid down in the. Regulations. Therefore, if you ask these men face to face, talking privately, they would agree that they were not entitled in any way to extra pensions or retired pay. We know, moreover, that they were given what is usually given to the temporary officer when he retires, namely, a gratuity, and I understand that that gratuity was a very handsome one, and they accepted it very willingly. I should most earnestly press the Secretary of State for War to grant pensions to these non-commissioned officers who accepted commissions and who have now retired, were it financially possible to do so, but in this House we must not let our sentiments run away with us. We have to consider whether it is possible to give this to these men without doing an injustice to thousands of others who have retired as temporary officers, and the answer is "No." It is quite impossible to do it without raising a very real grievance among a very large number —I think it would run into thousands—of other officers who have retired.

The last point I want to bring out is the question of status. What is the status of a non-commissioned officer who has retired with the rank of a temporary serving officer? His status is exactly the same as that of any other civilian, and he knows that as well as anyone else. In proof of that, one of these very men, a friend of mine, came to me and said, "I am a major, and I want to know, do you advise me to call myself a major?" I replied that I certainly did not, and he said, "That is just what I think," and he did not do so. His status is exactly what it was before, and he has no feeling about it. Of course, he would like to get an extra pension; of course, he would like to get this £100; and I, standing here as an officer, would very much like to urge the Secretary of State for War to give it to him. I would give it to him with all my heart. But, as a Member of the House of Commons, responsible in my small way for the finances of this country, I feel that it is impossible for us to do so. For that reason, therefore, I cannot support the Amendment as it now stands. I feel that to do what it asks would be to set a precedent which would be an extremely dangerous one from every point of view. The tendency of the age is for everyone to ask for pensions. We shall soon be pensioning everyone in the country, and I admit that no one deserves better of this country than the regular non-commissioned officers of the Army, for they are truly the backbone of the Army; they are the men to whom to a very large extent we owe the winning of the War. The success of that little "Contemptible" Army in the very first weeks of the War was really due to its magnificent non-commissioned officers, and, standing in this House now, I should wish to plead that we should give them the status and the retired pay which those who served their 25, 30 or 35 years, as I have done, are entitled.

6.0 P.M.

I listened with a great deal of interest to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Enfield (Colonel Applin), and I gathered from its commencement that he had signed a petition in support of the prayer made to the Prime Minister that these men should be granted an ex gratia payment. If that is what he has stated, no doubt correctly and truly, and what he honestly believes, how he reconciles his conscience in regard to what he signed with what he now says, I fail to understand. I thank him for his support. It reminds me of political promises that have been made, and is, I venture to say, another illustration of the trust that is to be put in promises.

May I just interrupt my hon. and learned Friend to say that that was given with the full understanding that it did not bind me in the slightest degree?

I do not know how anyone can sign a document with the full understanding that it does not bind him in the slightest degree. I want to state this case as I understand it, and the reasons for which I shall, with a light heart, and, indeed, satisfied that I am right, vote against the Government on this proposal they have put down. I shall illustrate what I have to say with regard to the unfortunate history of this case, but I will proceed, first of all, to deal with what I consider to be the merits of the case. We need, first of all, to my mind, to clear the ground of anything about temporary commissions. I know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), when he was Secretary of State for War, founded his case largely upon them, or, at any rate, the War Office did in the Report that they issued. The Barnes Committee did the same, and I only say, in reference to its Report, that, having searched through it, I can find no such thing. Therefore, to clear the atmosphere, I put a question the other day to the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and his answer was just what I expected, namely, that, before the War, such a thing as a temporary commission had never been heard of, nor was there are regulation, Army or otherwise, on the point. That was just what I expected, and in that answer he put it upon me that everybody who applied for a commission signed a document—that the procedure was that he should sign a document, applying for a temporary commission, and that he was fully aware of the terms. I thought that strange, and I put a supplementary question to the Financial Secretary, to which his answer was:

Evidence was given before the Barnes Committee by one of these officers that, although he was appointed an officer in 1915, he never even got his commission until 1920. He thought of his position then, and asked himself what he had to show that he was an officer, and he then applied to the War Office to forward him his commission. What idle nonsense it is to tell this House that these men signed these documents. Some of them may have done so, but some did not. I have not seen the document, but the extraordinary thing is this—and I can verify it from the documents, and by reference to the Report that was issued by the War Office in support of the attitude that the then Prime Minister took up on this question, namely, that he had been misled by these men, and repudiated the promise he had made on that ground. There is the Report of the War Office, in which they say that in every instance these men signed an application for these commissions, and the Barnes Committee says the same, in the teeth of the evidence that was given before them, and in the teeth of what is true in fact, namely, that at any rate a number of these men signed no such application at all. Therefore the position was, under the stress in which we were then at the commencement of the War to raise and train an army, that Lord Kitchener appealed to these men, who were under no obligation to re-enlist, to come forward in the interests of the country. They did so on the terms that they would be entitled to receive the pay of their rank in addition to their pension.

In the Army you are either a soldier or an officer. There is no intermediate. You can have acting rank as between soldiers or as between officers, but the line was clear and fast. These men came forward and served. The Barnes Com- mittee finds that they practically had no option except to accept, otherwise they would be disobedient to military superior orders. They fought with the greatest distinction. I have in mind one case of a Lieut.-Colonel Langton, who commanded the Warwickshire Regiment, and, subsequently, I think, a division in France with great distinction, was mentioned in despatches and served his country as gallantly as any officer could have done. It is true there were no terms upon which he could be remunerated for his services in the rank he held. The question is not raised in regard to those who continued as pensioners, that is, as soldiers. The point arises in regard to those men who, by distinction and ability, rose above the ranks. That is the class for which I am contending. In regard to them, there was no provision in the Warrant, and I challenge the War Office, as I did then, and the challenge has stood on record since August, 1924, and no reference has been made to any such provision, and it cannot be found. Many of these men served on until the close of the War. When the great push came in March, volunteers were asked from the ranks and from non-commissioned officers to take promotion as officers, and a number responded. The Secretary of State says six. I do not mind whether it was six or sixty. Right is right the world through. The terms of the offer made to them were that they should at the close of the War retire under the terms of Article 572A, which gave them a right, though they had not served long enough for pension, to exactly the pension to which a man rising from the ranks before the War would have been entitled. These men who volunteered in 1918 were entitled to a gratuity and also to retired pay of £80 a year. I have the greatest respect for the Barnes Committee, though I wholly disagree with their judgment and their decision. They reported in paragraph 13: they had a legal right? Of course, we should. You would have heard of it throughout the length and breadth of the land if you had not paid up. We should have shaken you somewhere. There was no legal right, but these men had a just and fair claim for the service they rendered in the commissioned ranks. If nothing was raised until 1919, the reason was this. These men had only received £80 retired pay and their gratuity. The pensioners who had risen to commissioned rank in the War, owing to their length of service before the War, were getting £75 a year, as compared with £80 that these men got. It was not much to quarrel about—five sovereigns—and because they did not raise the question, says the Barnes Committee, "It is significant that nothing was heard of this until March, 1919."

I call that an insignificant observation when the truth is known, and it shows they were quite ignorant of the point for which we were contending, namely, that it was what happened in September, 1919, which has given rise to the whole of this controversy. There was no Warrant that entitled him to more, but he lived in hopes that the Crown would be bountiful, and, as a matter of grace, would give him something. These men had no legal claim to anything more than £80 a year and their gratuity. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was then at the War Office and he issued, in September, 1918, the Warrant upon which the whole of this matter turns, and no reference has been made to it. The Barnes Committee have made no reference to it in the whole of their Report. We claim for these pensioners who were commissioned from the ranks during the War that they are entitled to terms as fair and generous as those given to the men who took commissions in 1918. They had no right to look to anything more than Article 572A, which has been applied to their case. The Warrant of September, 1918, said: request of Lord Kitchener, getting £75 a year and these men under Article 572A getting £80 a year. Let us see how they were treated in contrast with the commissioned men of 1918. Table 16 says:

The Secretary of State for War has made a statement which I fail to understand. He told us that under the re assessment, the pensions of these noncommissioned officers and pensioners were doubled. I can find no such thing. The only increase was the enormous one of 2½d. a day! I should like to know where he gets the doubling of his pensions from. We expect a little more accuracy from the Secretary of State. In addition to the gratuity as I calculate it under one of these paragraphs, a sum of £200 and £300 is paid to majors and lieutenant-colonels. One lieutenant-colonel for whom I speak did not get that, and he did just as good work as other lieutenant-colonels. These men said, "It is a great injustice. The War Office themselves have fixed the basis of what we ought to be entitled to from the Crown. They have fixed it in regard to the officers of 1918 appointed from the ranks, and we ask for the same or similar treatment. That is our case." Then the Barnes Committee say it is significant that this question then arose. It would be a surprise to me if it had not then arisen. These pensioners are included in the Warrant of the same date, which is numbered Army Order 325. It would not have applied to them, unless there had been express words of inclusion, and the express words of inclusion were

My hon. and learned Friend has challenged my statement that on the average the pensions have been doubled. I find the actual figures are that the average pension of all ranks in 1919 was £30, and it is now £60. It is on that basis that I said they were doubled. The private's pay, with 21 years' service, was, before the War, 1s. 1d. and is now 2s. 7½d.— which is more than doubled.

My right hon. Friend has had that statement handed to him. Will he tell me in what Warrant I can find it? I have read the Warrants, and I have made a calculation, and it is a fact that, under Pension Warrant 324 of 1918, the increase was only 2½d. for the highest rank. That is the only increase they got.

It is under the ordinary Warrant from which my hon. and learned Friend is reading, but the difference is that his calculation is wrong, and that which I have given him is right.

That is a very easy assertion, but I know the subject. That is a statement put into my right hon. Friend's mouth. It is not his knowledge. You can get any statement put into your mouth, just as the War Office put into the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) their statement that in every case these men had made an application for temporary commissions. I think the men who resigned these pensions ought to know something about it. But supposing they did get an increase of pension, how does that compare with £150? But my figures are correct. That is the case that has been put forward, that it is the only basis on which it ought to have been considered when their case was fairly considered. That point of the case has never been dealt with by the Barnes Committee. I protested at the time against the report of the Barnes Committee. I always said this was not a legal point. It is a matter for the House to deal with. It is to the House alone that these men can look for redress. We cannot refer to a Committee, however able, something which is not a legal claim. It is for the House to determine what we should grant. When a Committee was proposed early in 1920, I opposed it. The Barnes Committee gave their report in May, 1924, and in August, 1924, on the Appropriation Bill, Members on all sides of the House protested that this question of what these men were entitled to ought to be left to a free vote of the House, that we ought not to be bound by the Barnes Report, but that it was a matter for Parliament. Such was the pressure that we were promised a discussion, and a free vote in the autumn. Therefore, the last Parliament has already considered the Barnes Report and said, "We will not have it."

Then came the Election. No doubt there are some new Members who have never heard, or have forgotten, about the letter that the then Prime Minister sent to the ranker officers. The present Prime Minister proposed a reference to a Committee. I objected to it, but it was carried. I appeal to the Prime Minister, as strongly as words can appeal, in regard to the way these men have been treated. The then Prime Minister made a pledge, clear and as precise in its terms, as to what the Labour party would do for these men. It was not only he who made it. It had already been published from Eccleston Square. Member after Member of the Labour party rose and said, "We will be faithful to our pledge; we will vote for this," and they insisted upon a free discussion and a free vote. I, therefore, have the unfortunate history of the case in my mind. The pledge was made, and there was a party in office who could carry it out, and then the Prime Minister said he had been misled. I do not think there was any ground for his being misled, but he said he was. It is quite enough for me. It is not for me to say whether he was misled or not. The truth is that his whole party and the whole opinion of the House were in favour of a free vote. I knew that my leader, the Prime Minister, by the attitude he had taken up would be opposed to it.

I was approached at the General Election, as were other candidates, by the ex-ranker officers, who asked' me what I could do for them. I told them, in the first instance, that I could make them no promise. I said, "I will help you all I can, but if our party are returned to office and power you must not ask me to vote against the Government." They were dissatisfied with that, and pressed me upon it. I said, "I will write to our head office and find out their view and what attitude they are taking up." Therefore, I wrote a letter, not to any official, but to the hon. and gallant Member who ought properly to be appealed to, to give me directions as to what I could say. I wrote to the hon. and gallant Member for Howdenshire (Lieut.-Colonel Jackson) the following letter:

After what the right hon. Gentleman had said in his letter, it seemed perfectly clear to me, as it would to any man of honour. That letter justified what I did. I preserved the letter because I attached importance to it. That letter justified me completely, particularly when I knew the attitude that my leader had at one time taken up. I appealed to my leader, the Prime Minister, the other night to help us out. He prides himself that he does not make pledges, and everyone knows that he is a man of honour. I know that he is breaking no pledge that he gave when he votes to-night, because he has never made a pledge, but does he not think that there is some responsibility for his agent, for our agent for the agent of our great party? Are we not justified in voting against our party in this House, because we have not had that frankness of answer to which we are entitled? When I appealed to the Prime Minister the other night to help us out, he was not in the House, but I dare say he has read what I said. I feel strongly about the matter, and I shall carry through my promise. If the Government are beaten, I do not care a bit, not a bit. Let it be a lesson in politics that you cannot do these things.

I want this thing put right. There have been others who have been active in endeavouring to get this matter settled. An offer has been made to take less than these men would be entitled to strictly, if they received retired pay on the basis of the Warrant. What does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War do? He uses that against us. What generous treatment! We are only endeavouring to get the rights to which these men are entitled. We may lose. I shall deeply regret it, but I say, from first to last, if we lose, in view of the letter which I have read, and in view of the telegram which was sent to the ex-ranker officers, to which that letter refers, it is altogether wrong. Why did not the hon. and gallant Member, when he got my clear letter, asking for a free vote of the House, reply, "No, you cannot have it"? Was I right in thinking that his letter conveyed the idea that we should have a free discussion and a free vote? [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] You say "no." Well, it may be so, but I am not a cynic Ought not the hon. and gallant Member to have corrected that idea? Why did he not tell the ex-ranker officers that the promise that had been made to them in the telegram was nothing; that it promised nothing? That is what it amounts to. Why did he not say, "You can always get a discussion in the House if your candidate is returned"? We do not need to appeal to anybody to give us that. We have only to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, and if we do not catch it early, we can catch it late. There is a method of sitting quietly and saying, "I will get in." Then Mr. Speaker has to give way. The whole thing is lamentable to me. I am sorry to have had to make this speech, but I should not have been happy had I not done so.

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and the permission of the House, I should like to intervene to make a short statement in regard to what happened this afternoon. I think it would be for the convenience of the House that I should make the statement now. Since Question Time, we have had an opportunity, through the usual channels, of communicating with the Government, and I understand that the Government are prepared to allocate part of to-morrow's time for the discussion of the Motion which is down in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) and the names of myself and others. When you, Sir, expressed the wish that the Debate should take place to-morrow, there was only one hesitation that I had, and that was that three out of the five Members whose names were down for the Motion were billed to address a meeting somewhere in the far west to-morrow. However, since you have expressed that desire, that engagement will have to be postponed. We propose, therefore, to withdraw the Motion for the 9th June, and to put it down for to-morrow.

May I say, in reply, that I shall take whatever steps may be necessary to lengthen the period allowed for debate to-morrow by two hours, up to seven o'clock?

The hon. and learned Member for Gillingham (Sir G. Hohler) made several very kindly references to myself. I do not know that I have any exception to take to the matter, or the manner of his statements respecting myself, but I am sure that he will see that he cannot found any general argument against either the Secretary of State for War or myself because of the fact that a few people have been found not to have signed their commissions. He must know the general rule—and it is the exception that proves the rule—that where thousands of commissions are affected the fact that two or three people have not signed their commissions is surely no argument that there was a general lack of signature. I do not carry that point any further. It is true, and he knows, and every soldier knows, that the men who signed these temporary commissions signed them knowing that they were temporary for the duration of the War, exactly as the millions of our people entered the War for the duration. There is really no point in emphasising the fact which the hon. and learned Member emphasised on a previous occasion, in 1924, that here and there some people holding commissions and doing extremely good service were unaware of the terms on which they hold them.

Let us see the age of this agitation. The Armistice was signed in November, 1918. The claim has been before five distinct Secretaries of State for War. The first Cabinet to which it was presented was the Cabinet that governed the Parliament that came in in 1919, and sat until 1922. The question came before the Ministry in 1923. There were two of the Ministers in the first Cabinet. It next came before myself. I had to take it up exactly where my predecessor had left it. Let it be noted by the House that the point is not that the War Office has been guilty of any illegality, and not that they have been guilty of any conscious hardship to the claimants, but that they themselves relatively to the other soldiers with whom they were serving suffered an injustice.

It is a most curious thing that from the time that these temporary commissions first came into existence, about February, 1915, right down to the time when they received their gratuities in 1919, not a single word was said as to the existence of injustice. They received in their service the pension for their previous service and the full pay of their rank, whether they were lieutenants, captains, majors, colonels, or whatever rank they held. They were receiving both sets of payment at the same time, yet they described as identical conditions of service the service which they were performing with others, about whom they addressed the questionnaire to my right hon. Friend. Can any honourable man say that when one person is receiving two sets of payment as against another person doing exactly similar work, that they were both working under the same conditions? Yet that is what the questionnaire said. One man was receiving a pension for probably 21 years' previous service. He then re-enters the Service, and is gazetted and given a temporary commission, but he does not abandon his previous pension. He draws that at the same time. Yet my hon. Friend sends out his questionnaire to my colleagues, and tells them that both men are working under identical conditions. That was one of the statements that inveigled certain of my friends to sign in the manner they did. It was not a fair and open statement. It did not state the facts as they ought to have been stated.

May I point out to my right hon. Friend, if he is referring to me, that the questionnaire said that when the men were demobilised they did receive identical pay at the time of demobilisation, whether they had tern porary or permanent commissions?

The questionnaire says,

"Do you agree that professional ranker officers of the Army performing identical duties in similar conditions should receive equal treatment as regards retired pay?"

These are the exact words, and part of the question states that professional ranker officers are performing similar duties under identical conditions with the rest. Were they?

The identical conditions were that the permanent officer received £150 grant for uniform, and the temporary officer received £50, but on demobilisation the temporary officer received a certain grant which was about £100 more than the permanent officer received.

My hon. and gallant Friend must not in the first part of his answer deal with equipment and so forth, and then in the latter part of his answer deal with the end of the man's service. We are speaking here of the performance of duties in similar conditions, similar and identical duties. The payment was not identical. One man was receiving double payment. The other man, to whom inference is made in this paragraph, was a serving soldier, who had been discharged in order to obtain a commissioned rank, who had forfeited his pensionable rights. He had forfeited those rights in order to obtain his commission. That man was a serving soldier. If that man had abandoned his pensionable rights, which he had acquired as a private or noncommissioned officer, in order to obtain a commission to perform further service, were those conditions identical? In those circumstances, I ask any hon. Member, especially having regard to the multiplicity of papers that are "thick as leaves in Vallambrosa" at election periods, whether it was possible to frame a question in a more specious manner than that which was adopted in this questionnaire?

Coming to the actual facts, when the War had gone on for eight or nine months, any Department conscious of its duty to the State would have seen that it was impossible to multiply regular commissioned officers at the rate that would probably have been necessary. A war was taking place on a scale utterly unexampled in the history of the world. It was therefore not merely necessary but was overwhelmingly obligatory upon the War Office to say, "As from this date commissions which are granted will be temporary commissions, but they will involve no loss of pay. The holders of these commissions will be on full pay, as the holders of existing commissions. There will be no difference. Their calibre and status so long as the War lasts will be as great." All the time these men received their pension, and they received the full emoluments for their rank, and, as the Secretary of State for War has said, they received what can only be described as very handsome gratuities on the termination of their service.

It cannot be said that the War Office has not carried out every obligation to the full by which it was bound. It is said, "These poor fellows who had served 21 years, rising to high non-commissioned rank, in their previous Army service were so simple that they did not know what they were doing," and one of my hon. and gallant Friends said that they never thought that they would be deprived of their rank when their ser- vices were no longer required. I wonder whether there was a single man who responded to the call of Lord Kitchener, or of the later commander, who did not know that the service which he was giving was temporary service. Having regard to the fact that we are dealing with men who, in many cases, had given 21 years' previous service in the Army, and knew all the conditions and all the Regulations, there is not anything that one could tell them, and it is seven years too late in the day to come along and say, "They did not know what they were doing. In Heaven's name, take pity on their simplicity and grant them £150 a year."

When I went to the War Office I saw at once that if my natural sympathies were to be enlisted they would be with these men, but they would have been with tens of thousands of other men also. We know something of the War. There is not a person in this House or outside it who does not know something of the War, and there are a great many people for whose position sympathy could be expected. Take the case of Territorial officers. It is said that the consequential claims can be safely left alone. The Territorial régime was established 21 years ago. I know many of those men, men for whom I have the highest regard, men who have given 18 or 20 years' service, and served before the present system was inaugurated, and they went to the War and left everything behind; they left their businesses and everything and went to the War, and came back, and, in many cases, their businesses had disappeared and they have had to commence life anew. Is there anything to prevent these men putting forward claims? I will put it to the good sense of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, is there any body of men in this Kingdom who have a stronger claim, and where are you going to draw the line?

Will the right hon. Gentleman forgive me if I point out the essential difference, which is, that in the Territorial Army the man has not given the 15 years' embodied service which is the first requirement of the pensioner.

First hon. Members admit that we have no legal claim, but we have a moral claim. Now they tell us that the Territorial officers have not any embodied service, and, therefore, they have no legal claim. But would they not have the moral claim which is now being submitted? Where are you going to distinguish? What particular standard of morality are you going to set up? Who are going to be the judges? I can see my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom once or twice I have worked as a colleague, and, if he is going to have four or five more Budgets, he will have a much more punishing time than he has had during the last few days if moral claims are going to be presented. It is said, however, "This is a comparatively small matter, because we are now prepared to lessen by one-third the minimum of £150. We will knock £50 off. Let every one have a minimum of £100, with consequential payment to the widow, and that will go very far to settle it. We cannot guarantee that it will actually settle it, because there still may be disgruntled men for whom we cannot speak. But if you allow the £100 a year, plus the consequential claims of the widows, that will be accepted," and when my right hon. Friend suggested, on the authority of his Department, the effect of this, I should say it is not in the habit, from my knowledge, of making loose calculations. I will take the round figure of 2,000 claimants, and I will take the figure of 500 widows. I do not think that that will be a very high estimate. If you take 500 widows with an average duration of life of, say, 15 years after the deaths of the husbands, 500 widows at 15 years give a total of 7,500 years, and at £100 each there is a total of £750,000, so that the total expenditure under this head would not be far short of £1,000,000. That only gives an indication of where our sympathies are likely to lead us. If once you open the floodgates of sympathy, there is no possible Budget that could stop the onrush of the, waters.

7.0 P.M.

Reference has been made to the 1918 commissioned men. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty did not intend to mislead the House, but his comparison is not quite exact. These were serving soldiers who were then invited to take up commissions. We know that it was in the most vital time of the nation's affairs. Let anybody east his mind back to 1918. Those who took up the commissions, the actual serving soldiers at the time, were very few in number, but they took those commissions in conditions of danger which, I think, we can now say were practically unparalleled. They were very few. My right hon. Friend tells me not more than six, and upon those men, comparatively few, this wholly exceptional claim, never equalled in the history of this country, has been founded. I have never known in all my life a case that has so little to support it. I have never known a case with such vitality on so slender a foundation I have never known a case that had less reality in it. From the time of the Armistice in 1918, it took five years before a Bill promoted by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Sir A. Holbrook), was introduced in November, 1923.

The Bill was brought in just at the time when a very unfortunate incident took place in our political history, and our present Prime Minister threw away a very handsome majority.

I thought he would remember it when I refreshed his memory. That was the time, five years after the date of the Armistice, when this injustice, which had been simmering since 1915, came to a head. I say that from the first it has never had any moral foundation. From the first, it has been largely a fraud upon the intelligence of the people. It has been an endeavour to hoodwink Parliament into the payment of money that it ought not to disburse. There has never been the slightest suggestion that the War Office, the Government or the State have not carried out every obligation into which they entered with those concerned. They have never complained that they have not been fairly treated—even generously treated—and that can be proved by the records, which show how high they were paid, and how high were their gratuities. I do not know what my party will do because it is a party of free-lances. Upon the full examination of the facts by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who gave just as searching an examination to the facts as I myself, and whose sympathy and whose heart no one can deny, upon all those facts, under the most searching examination, I advised the Prime Minister in the last Parliament to take the action he did. I have never regretted it. I am as certain as I am of my own existence that we came to the right conclusion, and I for one shall have the greatest possible pleasure in supporting the Government in the Lobby.

The case for which the right hon. Gentleman has pleaded suffers from the vehemence with which he advocated it. He appeared to forget that he was speaking about a body of men who had served this country faithfully for 26 years.

No, I said that the claim came as near being a fraud upon the intelligence of the people as anything I know.

The right hon. Gentleman says that the claim put forward by these men is a fraud and an attempt to hoodwink the House of Commons. These men have served their country faithfully for 26 years, and after that faithful service they are receiving pensions to-day of £75 a year. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had to take up this case exactly where his predecessors left it. He had to do nothing of the kind. He appears to be oblivious or forgetful of the fact that the whole of his party was pledged. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

The late Prime Minister wrote a letter—in fact, he wrote two letters—in which he said that the whole of the Labour party were pledged. The letters have been read many times in this House.

I am endeavouring to suggest that nothing the late Prime Minister would say could pledge my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). The late Prime Minister, speaking with what authority he could command, did pledge the Labour party to support these claims.

May I give the exact words of his reply? It is dated 3rd December, 1923:

"DEAR SIR,

I am much obliged by your letter with enclosed questionnaire.

You can depend upon the Labour party doing everything it possibly can in the House of Commons to carry out the four points in your questionnaire, with which both they and I are in hearty agreement."

I do not think any comment upon that is necessary. I repeat that the late Prime Minister, speaking with what authority he could command, and with what knowledge of the precise significance of the English language he possesses, endeavoured to say that he would do everything supported by his party to carry out the four points mentioned in the questionnaire. What could possibly be plainer and clearer than that I fail to understand. Therefore, I say the right hon. Gentleman was not where his predecessor stood in this matter. He came into office as a Member of a party, pledged to do justice to these men, and justice would have been done to these men by the votes not only of members of the Labour party, but members of the Conservative party. They were very eloquent in their attacks upon the right hon. Gentleman and his honour in the last Parliament. Not only were they eloquent in the last Parliament, but I have here a whole dossier of letters, which, at various times, right hon. Gentlemen sitting on that Front Bench have written in favour of that claim. Not only have they written these letters, but 1.33 members of that party opposite have pledged themselves to support this Amendment, [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

In asking Members to sign their names, I was particular to say that there should be no pledge of any sort or description.

I really fail to understand the necessity for these subtle distinctions which some hon. Gentlemen seem to draw. I agree with what my hon. and gallant Friend says, that nobody who is supporting this Amendment in theory is compelled to support it in practice. What has happened is that 133 Members have placed their signatures to a request, which is in precisely similar terms to the Amendment. They are asking that the terms of this Amendment shall be accepted by His Majesty's Government. They have considered the matter, they have come to the conclusion that the claim is a just one and they request the Government to support the claim. There are 204 Conservative Members of this House whose names I have here who have pledged themselves to support the terms of the questionnaire. There are, therefore, in this House, in one form or another, two-thirds of the Conservative party pledged to give the utmost sympathy they can of a practical kind towards the claims of these ex-ranker officers. I do not think that I exaggerate the position when I say that it is perfectly clear that the majority of Members of this House did pledge themselves in favour of granting the claims of these ranker officers.

Quite apart from whether or not the ranker officers have a legal claim, the moral aspect of the case is divisible into two parts. First of all, there were the pledges given to support the case. In the second place—and here the real difficulty has arisen—a pledge was understood to be given that a free discussion would take place in this House. That is the difficulty in which my hon. Friends opposite, or some of them, find themselves, in that they understood at the last General Election, when they were soliciting votes, that a free discussion would be given to this question, and they, therefore, pledged themselves upon that understanding. I appreciate very sensibly the difficulty in which they find themselves, having pledged themselves to support the claim solely upon the understanding that their votes could be given freely, and in an unfettered manner. In the moral aspect of the case there are both the pledges given to support this case, and there is the pledge for a free discussion, but the Motion this afternoon is not a liquidation of either pledge. The majority of Members of this House would be well advised to follow the lead of the hon. and learned Member for Gillingham (Sir G. Hohler), who made such an honourable speech, in saying that nothing would induce him to break his word. I, therefore, earnestly hope that the House will have the courage to vote in favour of this Amendment, and, if it be rejected, to vote against the Resolution, for it is only in that way that it can do justice to its own party, and to its own constituents.

The Secretary of State for War, in introducing his case, made some very extraordinary statements, and gave some amazing reasons as to why this claim should not be accepted. One of his grounds was that the claim had not been put forward until 1919. I do not know if he realised that these officers were not demobilised for the most part at that date. They remained on in the Army. How could they have put forward this claim? They would have been court-martialled. They could not put forward a claim when they were serving in the Army, and it is rather unfair at this stage to come forward and say that these men were late in putting forward their claim.

Another thing that the right hon. Gentleman must realise is that these men are not accustomed to trade union organisations. It is probably the first time in English history that a body of ex-Army officers has formed itself into a trade union. In these circumstances it might have expected the sympathetic support of the Secretary of State for War in the Labour Government. Seeing that these men are trained to discipline and unaccustomed to the methods usually followed by the Labour party, when they banded themselves into a trade union they might have expected a little more encouragemnt from the Labour party Front Bench. But it does, at any rate, explain to a certain extent any further delay which may have occurred. It took these men some time to organise themselves together.

The Secretary for War gave some other extraordinary reasons to-day for rejecting the claim. He said that if he admitted it there would be 2,500 regular ranker officers who, having received gratuities of £800 each, would have a claim for pensions for their widows. But no officer's widow can get a pension unless the officer had seen more than 15 years' service. Therefore, the objection of the right hon. Gentleman falls completely to the ground. His third objection was that consequential claims might arise. I have yet to learn that it is a principle of British justice that you shall withhold what is due from one section of the community lest you may have to give something to other sections of the community which may be entitled to it. Why hold forth this bogey at every stage? This claim has been before the House time and time again. The House is pledged in favour of it. Surely it can be decided purely on its merits?

There were other reasons put forward by the Secretary of State against the claim. One was that an ordinary civilian might have enlisted as a footman and might have been later promoted, and he would get no pension. But that man never expected, nor does he ask for, any pension. What the right hon. Gentleman has to explain is this: The claim of these men would substantially fail if all had received the same treatment. But these men have got the pensions of non-commissioned officers, whereas those who did no greater service and who happened to take commissions after the crucial date of May, 1918, got the status and the financial advantages of officers. These men never contemplated, when they accepted these temporary commissions, that at a subsequent date in the War the War Office would come along and say "We will now give commissions on a far better scale to persons in precisely your category." It is not just and was never contemplated. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken said that these men knew the law, knew the terms on which they accepted the commissions. The Barnes Committee report says that they did not know the terms and had no option in the matter at all. It says that there was no alternative for them but to accept any terms that were offered. To-night this House is being asked to accept the Report of the Barnes Committee. The only recommendation that that Report makes in these men's favour is the following: work; it is merely to delegate its responsibility to some vague authority that is to make some vague appeal on behalf of these men who have given 26 years' service to the State, and who are trying to subsist and to keep families on £75 a year. How I wish that the Prime Minister could regard these cases with the same sympathy as Earl Haig regards them. After all, although the gallant Field-Marshal cannot speak in this Debate, his authority ought to count for something, and he has expressed himself very strongly in favour of this claim. In exactly the same way, Field-Marshal Sir William Robertson has expressed himself:

If I may, as a very junior Member of the House, I would like to take the opportunity of congratulating the late Secretary for War on a very frank, courageous, non-party statement of the facts of the case. I would like to say a few words regarding a certain letter which the hon. and learned Member for Gillingham (Sir G. Hohler) received from the right hon. Member for the Howdenshire Division (Lieut.-Colonel Jackson), who is chairman of the Conservative party organisation. The hon. and learned Member thought fit for some reason to interpret that letter as an official pledge given on behalf of our party that we would leave this question to a free vote of the House. The hon. Gentleman is engaged in the legal profession, but I fail to see how he can possibly interpret in that way the following words:

"Opportunity for discussion of claims of ex-ranker officers would be afforded the House."

Surely that is what we are doing now. There is no pledge in those words that we would leave the matter to the free vote of the House.

The question which was asked the right hon. Gentleman is one thing. The right hon. Gentleman did not commit himself in his answer. He probably had no authority to commit himself. He could not consult his colleagues in the shadow Cabinet in the midst of a General Election. He said that the House of Commons would be afforded an opportunity of discussing the matter. I would like to dissociate myself from an unfair attack on the hon. Gentleman in regard to a pledge which he never gave at all. I think that if you concede this principle you will be overwhelmed by claims from all quarters. The "Tommy" is going to say, "Why should I not receive the 5s. a day of the Australian soldiers, or the 4s. 6d. of the Canadian soldiers?" Another would say, "I am a private or captain or colonel in a line regiment. Why should I not receive the same pay as is received by those ranks in the Royal Horse Guards or in the technical services? I do the same work in exactly similar circumstances."

The House of Commons will appreciate the fact that if this principle is conceded, associations protecting every interest under the sun will spring up in five minutes throughout the country. Then Members of the House will be overwhelmed with questionnaires, "Do you favour this or do you favour that?", and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will naturally have to take a very strong line and see that the taxpayers are not put in the position of having to meet exorbitant claims. I think that the Secretary for War in the Labour Government was right. Hon. Gentlemen on all sides of the House signed this questionnaire under a definite misapprehension. The phrase was used, "The services of these officers were identical." But, as has been pointed out, the service of these officers while in the ranks was compensated; they received a pension and they were discharged from the Army and received the pensions of noncommissioned officers. They have accepted commissions in entirely different circumstances. Their service as warrant officers was recognised. They were quite willing to receive pensions as warrant officers, and they went to the War Office and accepted temporary commissions as officers at the rates of pay prevailing during the War. Does the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha) tell the House that a noncommissioned officer with 21 years' service cannot understand an agreement which he signed?

The Barnes Committee said that they did not have time to question it.

I doubt very much whether any non-commissioned officer would require more than 10 minutes to understand an agreement which he was asked to sign, regarding Army service.

Yes, in principle, but that does not mean that I agree to every word in every paragraph and clause of the Report. I am supporting the principle which the Barnes Report brought out, that the Government is under no obligation to meet the claims of these ranker officers. Hon. Members pleaded with the Government to grant an inquiry of some kind. Now they have had the inquiry, this judicial Committee, and they say, "Oh! We do not agree with it. It does not agree with our point of view and we prefer to disregard it." That is not fair. Surely they ought to abide by the decision of the inquiry? I hope sincerely that hon. Members on this side of the House, although they may have signed a questionnaire under a misapprehension, will go into the Lobby in support of the Motion.

This question has been before the country for the last three years, and at all the General Elections since 1918 questionnaires have been sent to all candidates. I was first asked in this House to attend a meeting to consider this matter organised mainly by Members of the party opposite. I listened to the case there and in this House and I am convinced that these men have a claim in equity on the Members of this House who have not once, but time and time again, pledged themselves to grant this demand. It is no use for hon. Members to say that after making that promise they discovered that they had been misled. Many hon. Members on this side of the House and on the other side had two chances before last year of deciding whether this claim was right or wrong, and on two occasions, without any reservation, a big majority of the Members of this House told the men that their claim was just and right. The Prime Minister last year, and I think also the present Foreign Secretary, made great play with the fact that they never gave individual promises and they deprecated the custom of Members giving promises and pledges at election time. Although individually we may do so, our party leaders in speeches and otherwise make pledges in a wholesale manner and if once people outside, especially people like those whom I represent, get it into their heads that representative assemblies arc all humbug and that once we are elected we forget all the promises we made to them—once that opinion grows up, this House will lose among the new and the better educated electorate, every vestige of respect it ever had.

Although this is a small matter and is a case of a small section of people with a grievance, we are told that a multitude of others may have an equal grievance. Speaking for myself, I have always tried to stand for the principle of removing all grievances, and, because I do so, I am charged with wanting to dip my hands too deeply into the public exchequer. Here you have a small grievance, and you will not remedy it, because, you say, there may be a large number of others who believe they have grievances and you may be forced to deal with them. I think that is the most miserably mean argument that could be put forward. If there were in this country the hundreds and thousands of men of whom we have been told, who have grievances equal to this one, I am certain we should have heard of them long ago. This is not a new agitation; it has been going on for years. How is it we have not heard of these other claims? There are certain claims which Members of this House would never dream of conceding. There is, for instance, the claim to pension rights of all men who have been disabled in the War on the principle of " fit for service, fit for pension." I believe that is the only logical way of dealing with the men who went to the War, but it is not accepted by hon. Members, and the House has rejected that principle again and again. But here we have the case of a few men whose claim is backed by the overwhelming majority of Members of this House. I believe in the last House there were 400 Members pledged to vote for this claim. I shall vote for this miserable compromise, but if there are two Divisions I shall vote against the Report as it stands. I would not have presented this miserable compromise at all, and I have received scores of letters from the men concerned repudiating it and saying they would rather go down on the main issue than try to make a bargain of this sort.

Do I understand the hon. Member to say that the statement made this afternoon is not correct, and that the ranker officers as a whole do not accept the compromise?

I have no authority to speak for anybody except the people who have written to me, but I have received scores of letters expressing disagreement with the proposed compromise. Strangely enough, I have not been summoned to the committee meetings at which the compromise has been discussed, although I have been at all the other committee meetings. This House having given pledges twice over, hon. Members who vote for this Motion are either telling the British public that they are so ignorant and dense that they do not understand the documents they sign, or else they are saying that, Because they are afraid of some other people presenting equally legitimate claims, they will not give justice to this handful of men who have been told over and over again by a majority of hon. Members that their claim is just and right.

I wish to remove a misapprehension which may have been caused by some of the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff (Captain A. Evans). He implied that those who supported the case of these Army pension ranker officers had, on the last occasion, when the question was before the House, pressed for an inquiry and that the inquiry was granted because of that request. That is not so. Those who voted against the late Socialist Government on this question, did so on the merits of the case and did so when that Government were offering an inquiry.

Is it not the fact that in the last Parliament, some of the hon. Members who were in favour of this proposal pressed the then Prime Minister to grant an inquiry?

That is a misapprehension of what took place. Those of us who supported this ease from beginning to end objected to the inquiry and voted against the then Government, after that Government had offered an inquiry and after our own leaders had suggested that we should accept that inquiry. Having sat on the opposite side of the House on that occasion and given that vote—not taking any notice at the moment of the question of broken pledges which is extremely important but simply on account of the actual vote which I then gave against the Government of that day—I am compelled to give a similar vote against the Government on the present occasion. The hon. and learned Member for Rochester (Sir G. Hohler) said he did so with a light heart. I am sorry to have to do it, but having made the remarks I have made in my constituency on this case, having twitted the late Prime Minister in my constituency many times with having gone back on his pledge, I should be stultifying myself in the eyes of my constituents if I did not stand not only by the pledge I gave but by the actual vote which I gave in this House. I do not wish to give a silent vote against the Government. I desire to explain my reason for doing so, and my object is to keep absolute faith with those to whom I have given my word.

I cannot go through all the paragraphs of the Barnes Committee Report, but I think it is the most spineless effort I have ever read. The Committee consisted of three members, one of whom was formerly a Member of this House whom I often heard speaking here. From his speeches I gathered that he knew nothing whatever about the services, and this wonderful report which he has produced shows that to be the case. In regard to one point which has been raised during this Debate, I may quote the following passage from page 5 of the Report:

How did the Admiralty tackle this problem? We had in the Navy and the Marines 26,500 pensioner volunteers; the Army had 50,000. These men had exceptional knowledge just as had the men who were called up for the Navy for torpedo work, wireless work, submarine work and other work requiring special qualiflca- tions. They had exceptional knowledge and they should have exceptional treatment. The Admiralty tackled the problem by bringing out two Orders in Council. One was issued in a Fleet Order on 18th May, 1917, and the other on 17th December, 1924—that was to cover marines who had served in the Army. These two Orders in Council gave this to the men— rank in Army, lieutenant or any higher rank, maximum £300 per annum, minimum £250 per annum, £6 for each complete year's service in those ranks up to seven years, £8 for the eighth year and so on. The Navy or Marine temporary officer got £250–£300 per annum the temporary officer in the Army got £75 per annum. The sergeant-major in the Marines got £120– £180, the sergeant-major in the Army got £80–£l00. When the Admiralty got out these Orders in Council, did they consult the War Office and, if so, what was the War Office reply, because there were no contentious claims in 1917? If the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War will kindly pay attention to what I am saying I would suggest to him that this is a very important point and I will sit down if he will reply to my question now. I will repeat it. When the Admiralty got out these Regulations, did they consult the War Office, and if so, what was the War Office reply, because there were no contentious claims in 1917?

I have made inquiries into that. They did not consult the War Office.

Well, my information is that they did. In the Barnes Report it says, on page 9, at the end of paragraph 23:

"We are satisfied that the equitable course is that adopted, namely, to treat each class for pension purposes under the conditions of the original service."

That is, that you may have two officers in the same unit or regiment, one getting on retirement 30s. a week and the other £5 a week. Is that fair? Will any hon. Member get up and say that that is fair treatment? I submit that it is most unfair treatment. I will read out a letter I got from an ex-ranker officer in my constituency. He has a good record. He is a major and an O.B.E. He enlisted in the 5th Lancers, 24th January, 1888; was promoted captain, 1st July, 1917; appointed camp commandant, General Headquarters, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, 2nd August, 1917; promoted major, 25th February, 1918, and demobilised 18th August, 1920. South African War service. Honours and awards in the great War: awarded M.C. and O.B.E, twice mentioned in despatches. He is a man of some substance, and he writes this, which I think is a very fair statement, from Hertford, on the 7th August, 1924:

"I do not think that we can dispute that the Government have given us all that they contracted to do, but what is unfair is our treatment after the great War in comparison with the pensions awarded to serving N.C.O.'s who were given commissions, and in comparison with the Admiralty treatment of N.C.O.'s of the Royal Marines who were given commissions in and Served in line regiments. The result is this, that I know of men in my regiment who were corporals or sergeants at the beginning of the War, who have not more than about half my total service, not half my war service, and not half my foreign service, but whose pensions are £150 per annum, mine being £108 per annum. Further, they have never held the rank I held, either in peace or war."

I ask the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for War, Is that fair? I submit that it is most unfair, and I ask them to try to help these ranker officers by giving them this small grant asked for in the Amendment to-night.

I desire, briefly, to take the time of the House to make clear the position of the Government, and, equally, the position of any Government in this matter, which, I think, has been to some extent obscured by dwelling a great deal on detail and on various counter-charges across the Floor of the House. I wish to deal with it in a very broad and general manner. I would remind the House of one very striking event which took place last year, on which some comment has been made. The comment I propose to make is rather different from any that has been made during this Debate. It is quite true that the party now in Opposition were, broadly speaking, pledged on this question of the ex-ranker officer. When they had to form a Government, it became necessary for them to examine the question and to see what it involved, with the responsibility, not of private Members but of a Government. They exercised that responsibility of theirs, in the first place, by setting up a Committee upon which the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) rather poured scorn. But, after all, who were on that Committee? There was one of the most respected and experienced Members of the Labour party, who had been a Member of the War Cabinet and had held high office; there was an exceedingly able counsel, now one of His Majesty's Judges; and there was the general manager of one of our great railways, who, I think hon. Members opposite will agree with me, is a man not only of great experience, who has risen to that great position which he now holds from a comparatively humble start, but who has always been known as one who has great sympathy with those who are less fortunately placed than himself. It was a very admirable Committee, and when that Committee reported, the then Secretary of State for War, who spoke this afternoon, said in the House last year:

Why do we think it a right course? Let me say here that, so far as the cases of these men go, we have sympathy with many of them. We should like to meet them, and we should like, if we felt we could afford it, to adopt the Amendment which has been moved to-day. We have done our utmost in consideration— myself, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for War—to see if we could do so, but we have decided that it was impossible, and for this very simple reason. Hon. Members will remember one phrase that was used in the Report which has been so often quoted to-day. I forget the exact words, but it is to this effect, that the treatment of various classes of men in the War is honeycombed with anomalies. Remember this. I suppose something like 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 of men—more probably—served in one capacity or another, and they comprised almost an infinity of grades and classes. The conditions of service of all those men were settled by one or another form of Regulation. No Regulations are perfect, but I am quite sure the House in general will assent to this, that great pains were taken and that increasing understanding, sympathy, and liberality were shown in the drafting of the various Regulations which were made during the War. No one will allege that any Regulations were made at any time with a view to entrapping people. I think we are all agreed on that. But then, what is the result of that? The result of it is that, if in any case, however much a hard case here and there may be shown, you upset a Regulation by a vote of this House, yielding to electoral pressure, if you upset one, there is nothing that you can stand upon, and you are simply asking for the next group or class to organise themselves, having seen what the first has done, and if one Regulation can get ripped up and amended, why not all Regulations?

What Regulations are we up against? Hon. Members know that there are various classes where great hardships lie. You have the whole of the pensions system. That might be torn up. You have questions of compensation for damage done in air raids, a case which was settled by the Sumner Committee, and their judgment, and you have questions of temporary officers and of regular officers enjoying temporary rank. Do not let us forget, besides, one other thing, while we are talking about inequalities and hardships, and that is, how many there are that never in this world can possibly be rectified. Take those that jump to your eye more than any, the men who got 1s. a day in the trenches during the first part of the War—most of them left their bones in Flanders—the men who were fighting, on whatever it was that they got, and the scale was changed— the men in the munition works at home, and the men who were making money at home in business and supplying munitions of war. There can be no equality, and no money compensation in this world can ever make these things equal. I have no doubt at all that, if we had £20,000,000 in our hands to-day, we could give it all away in adjusting here and there the anomalies and hard cases that men in this House must know of, and this House would probably gladly give it on an open vote. We should all like to do it, and yet, that would not go far in redressing the anomalies that really do exist.

8.0 P.M.

It has always been one of the greatest difficulties, after a long war, to obtain finality in arrangements such as those which we are discussing to-day, arrangements of pensions, and if a Government cannot have the strength of mind to stand, having fulfilled its bargain, for the necessary economy which the country needs, and to stand for the taxpayers as a whole—and among the taxpayers are all the men in all the classes of which we are talking—then it infallibly finds itself on, and leads its party and the country down, that slippery slope that might lay burdens not only on us in this Parliament, but on a generation to come, as has been done in other countries before now. We could not possibly justify ourselves in the eyes of posterity. It is a very hard thing to have to say "No" in many cases like this, but I am convinced that the Government are right in taking the attitude they have done, and I am convinced that the Labour Government would have taken the same attitude had they been in our position. I understand and have every sympathy with hon. Members who give pledges, sometimes from want of thorough examination and at other times animated in the way that I know my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dumfries (Brigadier-General Charteris), who proposed this Amendment, and some of his friends to be. I have every sympathy with the spirit that animates them, and I myself certainly should find it hard to blame those who feel that they are so pledged that they have no alternative on an occasion like this but to support that Amendment, but I would say to hon. Members who, perhaps, are not clear in their own minds and who, perhaps, are not so deeply committed as some of those who are moving this Amendment to-day, that it is not quite playing the game to rely on the loyalty of your own party to keep a majority while you get some little kudos in the constituencies for yourself by voting against it. I have more than once, in fact on several occasions, when at the Treasury had to speak very much as I have spoken this evening on subjects where to give an adverse vote was to court unpopularity. But that is one of the things that has to be done if you are to keep this country, while honouring all agreements which have been made loyally and fully, secure in those paths of economy which are absolutely necessary for it to tread in the difficult times through which we are passing.

I feel I cannot give a silent vote on this question. I myself believe that the claims of the ranker officers are just. A man who is pensioned ought to be pensioned on the rank he holds when he leaves the Army and not on the rank he held when he joined the Army. I say that absolutely no case has been made out for the Government in this matter. The House of Commons agreed to the appointment of the Barnes Committee, and the Government are taking advantage of this occasion. I consider that these men have grievances which have been exploited in a very mean way. Therefore I shall support the Amendment.

In view of what has been said by the Prime Minister, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

HON. MEMBERS: No!

I shall proceed to put the Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 88; Noes, 267.

Division No. 119.]

AYES.

[8.5 p. m.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Rose, Frank H.

Baker, Walter

Hayes, John Henry

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Scrymgeour, E.

Briant, Frank

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Buchanan, G.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Smillie, Robert

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Compton, Joseph

Hurd, Percy A.

Snell, Harry

Cove, W. G.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Stephen, Campbell

Crawfurd, H. E.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sutton, J. E.

Dalton, Hugh

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

Day, Colonel Harry

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Thurtle, E.

Dennison, R.

Kelly, W. T.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Dunnico, H.

Kenyon, Barnet

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kirkwood, D.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Lowth, T.

Welsh, J. C.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wignall, James

Fenby, T. D.

March, S.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Forrest, W.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gates, Percy

Potts, John S.

Windsor, Walter

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Wise, Sir Fredric

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

Groves, T.

Riley, Ben

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Ritson, J.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Mr. Lansbury and Mr. George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Barker.

Hardle, George D.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Christie, J. A.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Albery, Irving James

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Clarry, Reginald George

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Clayton, G. C.

Gretton, Colonel John

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Grotrian, H. Brent

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Ashmead-Bartlett. E.

Connolly, M.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Astor, Viscountess

Cooper, A. Duff

Hanbury, C.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cope, Major William

Harland, A.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hartington, Marquess of

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Haslam, Henry C.

Bennett, A. J.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hawke, John Anthony

Berry, Sir George

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Bethell, A.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Blundell, F. N.

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Brass, Captain W.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Drewe, C.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Briscoe, Richard George

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Broad, F. A.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Elveden, Viscount

Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Huntingfield, Lord

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Forestier-Walker, L.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Fraser, Captain Ian

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Campbell, E. T.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Cape, Thomas

Gee, Captain R.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Gillett, George M.

Jacob, A. E.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Goff, Sir Park

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Gosling, Harry

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Gower, Sir Robert

Kennedy, T.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Grace, John

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Charleton, H. C.

Grant, J. A.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Lamb, J. Q.

Oakley, T.

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Stamford, T. W.

Lawson, John James

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Paling, W.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Pennefather, Sir John

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Penny, Frederick George

Storry Deans, R.

Loder, J. de V.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Looker, Herbert William

Perring, William George

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Lougher, L.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Pilcher, G.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Lunn, William

Preston, William

Tinker, John Joseph

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Ramsden, E.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Varley, Frank B.

Macintyre, Ian

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Mackinder, W.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Viant, S. P.

McLean, Major A.

Remnant, Sir James

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Macmilian, Captain H.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Rice, Sir Frederick

Warne, G H.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Ropner, Major L.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Macquisten, F. A.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Rye F. G.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Salmon, Major l.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Malone, Major P. B.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wheler, Major Granville C. H.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Whiteley, W.

Margesson, Captain D.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Merriman, F. B.

Sandon, Lord

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Savery, S. S.

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Montague, Frederick

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Wolmer, Viscount

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. Col. J. T. C.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Womersley, W. J.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Murchison, C. K.

Skelton, A. N.

Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Murnin, H.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Neville, R. J.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Smithers, Waldron

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Colonel Gibbs and Commander B.

Nuttall, Ellis

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Eyres Monsell.

Question put,

"That the Report of the Barnes Committee on the claims of the Professional

Ex-Ranker Officers [Cmd. 2124] be adopted by this House."

The House divided: Ayes, 264; Noes, 81.

Division No. 120.]

AYES.

[8.15 p.m.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Dalziel Sir Davison

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Albery, Irving James

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Campbell, E. T.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Cape, Thomas

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Dean, Arthur Wollesley

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Ammon, Charles George

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Drewe, C.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Astor, Viscountess

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

Elveden, Viscount

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Charleton, H. C.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Christie J. A.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Forestier-Walker, L.

Bennett, A. J.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Berry, Sir George

Clarry, Reginald George

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Bethell, A.

Clayton, G. C.

Gee, Captain R.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Cluse, W. S.

Gillett, George M.

Blundell, F. N.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Boothby, R. J. G.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Goff, Sir Park

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Philip

Gosling, Harry

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Gower, Sir Robert

Brass, Captain W.

Cooper, A. Duff

Grace, John

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cope, Major William

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Brittain, Sir Harry

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Broad, F. A.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Gretton, Colonel John

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Grotrian, H. Brent

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Macintyre, Ian

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mackinder, W.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

McLean, Major A.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Hanbury, C.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Harland, A.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Harrison, G. J. C.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Skelton, A. N.

Hartington, Marquess of

Macquisten, F. A.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Haslam, Henry C.

Malone, Major P. B.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Hawke, John Anthony

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Smithers, Waldron

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Margesson, Captain D.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Merriman, F. B.

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Stamford, T. W.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Montague, Frederick

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Storry Deans, R.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Hopkinson, A (Lancaster, Mossley)

Murchison, C. K.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Murnin, H.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield

Neville, R. J.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Huntingfield, Lord

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Thurtle, E.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Tinker, John Joseph

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Nuttall, Ellis

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Oakley, T.

Varley, Frank B.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Viant, S. P.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Paling, W.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Jacob, A. E.

Pennefather, Sir John

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Penny, Frederick George

Warne, G. H.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Perring, William George

Warrender, Sir Victor

Kennedy, T.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Pilcher, G.

Westwood, J.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Wheler, Major Granville C. H.

Lamb, J. Q.

Preston, William

Whiteley, W.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

Ramsden, E.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Lawson, John James

Rawlinson, Rt Hon. John Freck Peel

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Lindley, F. W.

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Remnant, Sir James

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Wolmer, Viscount

Loder, J. de V.

Ropner, Major L.

Womersley, W. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Lougher, L.

Rye, F. G.

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Salmon, Major l.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

Lunn, William

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Sandon, Lord

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Savery, S. S.

Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

Colonel Gibbs.

NOES.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Naylor, T. E.

Baker, Walter

Groves, T.

Potts, John S.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Batey, Joseph

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Riley, Ben

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Ritson, J.

Briant, Frank

Hardie, George D.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Buchanan, G.

Hayes, John Henry

Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Compton, Joseph

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Connolly, M.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Rose, Frank H.

Cove, W. G.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Dalton, Hugh

Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)

Scrymgeour, E.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Day, Colonel Harry

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Dennison, R.

Kelly, W. T.

Smillie, Robert

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kenyon, Barnet

Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Kirkwood, D.

Snell, Harry

Fenby, T. D.

Lansbury, George

Stephen, Campbell

Forrest, W.

Lowth, T.

Sutton, J. E.

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James l.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

March, S.

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Wellhead, Richard C.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Watts Dr. T.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col D. (Rhondda)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Welsh, J. C.

Windsor, Walter

Sir Godfrey Collins and Major

Wignall, James

Wise, Sir Fredric

Hore-Belisha.

Resolved,

"That the Report of the Barnes Committee on the claims of the Professional Ex-Ranker Officers [Cmd. 2124] be adopted by this House."

Local Authorities (Overlapping)

I beg to move, believe it is possible to give any substantial relief to local burdens, except by a systematic revision of the grants-in-aid, a revision which cannot be carried out by any Government until they have removed two obstacles, one which is now in process of being removed, namely, the inequalities in the system of rating and valuation; whilst another no less important and stubborn obstacle is the overlapping and duplication which exists.

The hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott), this very month a year ago, brought forward a Motion with reference to expenditure on what he described as "social services." I bring forward the subject to-night not in the same spirit, nor with the same object as my hon. Friend, but I think it is only right that I should remind the House that my hon. Friend brought forward the same subject only a year ago. At that time my hon. Friend quoted £306,000,000 as the gross expenditure on social services, and I ventured to predict that not merely would the hon. Gentleman fail in endeavouring to reduce that sum, but, on the contrary. it was bound necessarily to increase.

The later figures that have come out for 1923 show that the total has risen from £306,000,000 to £338,000,000. I do not know what the figures for 1924 were, and I do not think they were very different, but in 1925 the amount will be £350,000,000, and I feel sure that the annual gross expenditure in a short time will amount to £400,000,000. I am not going to regret that growth in social expenditure, but those of us who wish to see that expenditure increased are bound to have all the more regard to the evils of duplication and overlapping which now exist. I am not going to detain the House with much proof of overlapping, but I should like to remind hon. Members that there are seven different public authorities giving money in the home, and that is leaving out the occasional money payments by the education authorities, and public health authorities. There are six separate organisations administering various forms of medical treatment, and there are three different authorities giving educational training of one sort or another. As for the able-bodied unemployed, they may be subsidised or helped by five separate authorities which exist in every locality in England and Wales. The case is much the same in Scotland.

It has been said that the multiplication of distributing agencies is not altogether a disadvantage. I have heard it said that it is little enough that the recipients get, and that it does not matter much whether they get it from two or three sources. I have also heard it said in cases where there are too many officials that they ought not to be thrown out of employment. I stand here to say-in this, I believe, I speak for the Labour party—that there is no advantage in waste to any section of the community. Unfortunately, overlapping and duplication of provision is actually the cause of some people being stinted in the help given to them. They do not get more help because of this duplication, but in many cases they get less. I will read to the House the opinion of the clerk to a great urban union, who wrote as follows: lapping which nobody has any right to object to.

Take the case of the people who have additional incomes. There are many people with other sources of income who are in receipt of Health and Unemployment Insurance benefits, and we have no business to bring that up against them when they are asking for what Parliament has provided, any more than in the case of schooling, maternity and child welfare centres, public libraries, hospitals, and other similar provision. There is no limitation of income in regard to Unemployment Insurance, or Health Insurance, and any manual worker, even if he, or his wife or family have £1,000 a year, has a legal right to these benefits, and it is stupid to complain against a man with means when he comes to draw the insurances which he has paid for, and to which he is entitled by statute. My right hon. Friend who is doing me the honour to listen is about to extend very considerably that system of social insurance, and, therefore, there will be many more cases in which the widow will be able to draw a pension of 10s. a week, even if she happens to possess £1,000 a year. She will be legally entitled to it, but I am sorry to say there will be respectable people, and even magistrates, who will never understand that, and who will go on reproaching her for drawing her pension notwithstanding her independent income because they are simply stupid, and I venture to say, mean.

But where the public purse comes to the assistance of any person in respect of his poverty, and because of his poverty, we have a right to ask that the facts relating to his means should be known, and accurately known, to all the persons concerned. It is there that any overlapping gives cause for complaint and leads to waste. I cannot go into all the overlapping in all the local authorities, but am only going to take three cases. For instance, take the provision made by Parliament for the care of maternity and infants. There is the national maternity hospital of the Union workhouse. I do not know how many babies are born there now, but in 1906, 11,000 were born in the workhouse, which is the biggest maternity hospital in the world. It has also the biggest infant nursery in the world, where there are some 10;000 babies under five years of age. Meanwhile the public Health authority and the voluntary organisations acting with it, and largely subsidised by a Grant-in-Aid, have established no fewer than 2,112 maternity and child welfare centres. That is altogether a growth of the last 10 or 11 years. Whereas they were only spending £66,000, or, at any rate, including the voluntary agencies, less than £100,000 in 1914, in the year 1924–25 their expenditure was nearly £500,000. In 10 years it has increased six-fold, and you have, as a matter of fact, these two great provisions for maternity and infancy going on side by side, both supported by the same funds, but absolutely without any connection with each other, working unknown to each other, and overlapping to a great extent. Again, take the case of the children. I do not know how many children there are in the charge of the guardians altogether; I have not the figures; but there must be something like 250,000 outdoor relief children in the charge of the guardians. What is the more interesting to me is that there are, apparently, 11,470 under 16 still in the workhouses, and there were 11,151 in 1906.

When I say workhouses, I mean distinctly the non-specialised general mixed workhouse, excluding barrack schools, cottage homes and scattered homes altogether. That is to say, although the Local Government Board and the Ministry of Health have been doing their utmost for a generation to get the children out of the workhouses, and have over and over again said that there ought to be no children in the general mixed workhouses, there are rather more children in the general mixed workhouses to-day than there were 20 years ago. Meanwhile, you have not only the education authority providing education for these Poor Law children as well as millions of others, but you have had the whole system of school feeding growing up. In 1921, 552,000 children were fed at school. There are not so many now, I am glad to say, but still you have an enormous multitude of children who are found hungry at school and are fed at the expense of the education rate and the Government grant.

If you take the sick, the Ministry of Health does not know how many there are, but there are at least 100,000 sick people in workhouses and Poor Law infirmaries. Meanwhile there are the municipal hospitals—it is difficult to make people believe that there are such things as municipal hospitals—of which there are to-day something like 1,100 maintained entirely out of the rates, as compared with 700 20 years ago, and in which there are now no fewer than 44,000 beds. It is imagined by many people that these municipal hospitals are only for infectious diseases, but that is not the case. There is no restriction as to disease; they can treat any disease whatsoever, and do treat a large number of diseases. Under the Public Health Act, which authorised the creation of these hospitals, there is no restriction as to infectious disease, or even as to indoor hospitals. As a matter of fact they do treat a great many other cases, and the cost of them now is something like £4,000,000 a year. Most interesting of all are the two municipal hospitals started with the consent, and even at the suggestion, of the Local Government Board by local authorities who had already provided for infectious disease and wanted to provide for non-infectious disease. The town council of Widnes and the urban district council of Barry have long had such hospitals without any local Act. In fact, one of them proposed to promote a local Act, but the Local Government Board told them they could do it under the Public Health Act, and they have been doing so for a whole generation with the sanction of successive Ministers.

If you turn to the Public Health Act, you find that there is no restriction as to infectious diseases. I admit that for the most part these municipal hospitals are for infectious diseases, but there is no logical distinction any more than a legal disability. There are thus two sets of hospitals maintained at the public expense, the one set under the Poor Law for sick people who happen to be technically destitute, whatever their disease, and the other set for people who, whether or not they are destitute, happen to have certain diseases, and there is no clear distinction between them in some towns—it just depends, as a matter of fact, upon which doctor gets hold of the patient first. I have said that there was overlapping in all these cases. I will only give one definite statistical proof, but I have seen it myself in innumerable cases. A test was organised by the National Council for Social Service in 1922, in Reading and Halifax, and they found that out of 2,046 cases in which the boards of guardians were giving outdoor relief, there were 161 in which help was also given by the maternity and child welfare service of the local authority, unbeknown to the Poor Law authority. There were 35 cases in which the Poor Law authorities did not know that help was being simultaneously given in the form of school meals, and 89 in which the Poor Law authority did not know that unemployment benefit was being received at the same time by the people concerned. Therefore, in 285 cases out of 2,046, or about 14 per cent., there was overlapping without the knowledge of the Poor Law authority concerned.

Taking it from the other end, out of 261 cases in which school meals were being given, there were 31 in which at the same time outdoor Poor Law relief was being received without the knowledge of the education authority, 43 which were getting help from the maternity and child welfare service without the knowledge of the education authority, and 25 which were getting unemployment benefit also without the knowledge of the education authority. That is to say, out of 261 cases investigated, 99, or 38 per cent., were simultaneously getting this kind of service unbeknown to the other authorities concerned. Taking it from a third point of view, out of 435 cases which were helped by the maternity and child welfare service, 14 also received outdoor relief unbeknown to the child welfare service, and 35 received school meals, making a total of 11 per cent. Those were cases of overlapping without the knowledge of the authorities concerned, and such cases could be multiplied very largely. I will not venture to say in what proportion of the cases in which the Poor Law gives help by outdoor relief, help is at the same time being derived from other public sources such as I have mentioned, without the knowledge of the Poor Law authorities, but it must be a very large number.

How does that come about? I think it is easy to see with a little history. In 1834 the Poor Law Guardians were the only public service of this kind, apart from private charity. Infants, children, the sick, the infirm, the aged, the unemployed, idiots, lunatics were all lumped together under the name of paupers. Between that time and the next 50 years, you had local government proliferating into any number of highway boards, burial boards, nuisance authorities, sewers commissioners, until it became a chaos of areas, of authorities, of rates, and of services. Then we came, in 1875, to the Public Health Act, and I want to bear testimony, not only to the Conservative Government who passed that Act, but to the officials of what was then the Local Government Board for their persistent endeavours, bit by bit, under one Minister or another, always going steadily on and trying to get local government systematically organised. Under the Public Health Act they slowly covered England with a ubiquitous, non-overlapping organisation in the urban district councils and the rural district councils completely covering the whole kingdom.

Again, you had in 1870 the school boards, and at the end of the nineteenth century and during this twentieth century you have had a regular rush to create new social services, and in every case to take those services as far as possible out of the Poor Law and run each new service by the side of it. I want to pay another testimony. That movement, which is now reaching such a vast extension was begun by Mr. Joseph Chamberlain 40 years ago, in 1885, and when Mr. Joseph Chamberlain came to the Local Government Board in 1886 he started that system whereby the unemployed workman — the able-bodied pauper, as he was called then—should be dealt with outside the Poor Law by a new authority. I must not take up time by running over everything that has happened, but ever since that time, or, at any rate, ever since 1905, because it took 20 years for Mr. Joseph Chamberlain's idea to be acted upon in a broad, systematic way, you have had this spate of separate social services dealing with every class that came under the Poor Law—infants, mothers, children, sick people, people of unsound mind, mental defectives of every kind, the feebleminded, the aged, the unemployed—there is no class now being provided for by the boards of guardians which is not at the same time being provided for by one or other of these newer authorities. We are going next year, I hope, to have the widows and orphans added to the list.

If I may indulge in a historical recollection, about 90 years ago a Frenchman, M. Fourrier, who was occasionally out of his mind but occasionally inspired, and who had a great idea of reforming the world, said it would take a long time before they came to his reforms, and that in the meantime the world would go through a long period of what he called guar-anteeism. We are now plunging into this period of guaranteeism, in which against every contingency to which the mass of the people are exposed, the State, through its various organs, is endeavouring to provide insurance in a real sense. While that growth has been happening, and all these series of cases have been taken out of the Poor Law, the Poor Law has remained unimpaired in the scope of its service, and under the growing influence of public opinion has been getting bigger than ever in spite of all the other things which have been done. I am not in the least bringing an indictment against the guardians. No one can estimate too highly the painstaking, devoted services of the great majority of the 24,000 men and women who are guardians. Not only that, but there has been a vast improvement in the institutional work of the Poor Law under the influence of these alterations of public opinion. The provision for the children, for the sick, for the feeble minded, for the mentally defective and for the aged is better. It is nothing like what it ought to be in my opinion, but the guardians have been in a very large number of unions vastly improving their provision. And then during the last 10 or 15 years the remarkable thing is that whilst the total number of people aided by the Poor Law has enormously increased the number maintained inside the institutions has practically not increased at all. There are still a couple of hundred thousand inside the institutions. The whole of the increase has taken place in the form of outdoor relief. That is, of course, at any rate, a manifestation of the humanity of the boards of guardians and the sympathy with which they have done their work, but it raises a very serious question. If you are going to have this enormous development of outdoor relief—far greater than in 1834, when it was thought to be ruin to the country, far greater than it has ever been before or since—at the same time as you have definite provision made for every class and every person in every class by the other authorities which have been created, a very serious financial situation arises.

I will give one instance of what I think is the financial waste involved. Boards of guardians have to provide medical attendance and treatment to the vast army of poor people under their charge, and they had in 1911 very nearly 5,000 Poor Law medical officers. These were costing at that time in salaries and drugs just over £1,000,000. Then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) introduced his great scheme of Health Insurance, by which medical benefits, attendance and drugs were provided for practically the whole of the wage-earning population. Meanwhile, however, the 5,000 doctors employed by the boards of guardians did not diminish at all. They were retained in office. They found most of their patients already provided with medical benefit under Health Insurance. They are there still in office. Their number has gone down, I admit, by something like 150. Meanwhile their salaries have gone up to £1,800,000. Surely when the State is coming forward to provide medical benefit for practically all the wage-earning class it seems a little lacking in financial strictness to have continued unaffected the Poor Law medical service which has been provided for practically that same class. If it had been possible to stop that duplicated overlapping I cannot help thinking a very considerable sum annually might have been saved.

The only way by which we can relieve local rates is by a revision of the grants in aid. I have had some experience in local government and fought a great many local government elections, but I never promised the electors that there would be any reduction in the expenditure. There never will be. The expenditure, of the local authorities, which is now £1,000,000 a day, will go on increasing and you will never reduce the rates in the aggregate by attempting to cut down expenditure. On the contrary, expenditure will go up. But any relief to the local ratepayer, any reform in the system of local taxation, has been prevented for a quarter of a century, partly of course by that inertia which inevitably comes over Governments when they have any difficult problem to tackle, but also because it has been absolutely beyond the power of any Government to deal adequately with local finance whilst you have this overlapping, this continuance of separate authorities, all dealing with the same set of people and each clamouring for Government grants. You could not do it. Consequently you will not get any relief for the overburdened districts —I have told them this over and over again—until you can manage to bring about unity and system in local government. The Royal Commission on the Poor Law which sat between 1905 and 1909, representing all shades of opinion, came unanimously to the conclusion that the only way to sort this thing out was to abolish the boards of guardians with their union areas and their general mixed workhouses and transfer the whole thing to the county, borough and district councils.

9.0 P.M.

Unfortunately, that Royal Commission, though it was unanimous on all these points, did not manage to present a single report. But in 1917 you had a very strong Committee, representing all sides of the Royal Commission, and much more important, representing the expert officials of the Government Departments concerned, and that Committee, dealing with the Royal Commission's Report, worked it out in a practical plan, which was unanimously agreed to by both sides of the Royal Commission and by these officials. That plan, as it seems to me, ought to be adopted in general terms in this reform of the Poor Law, which we hope the Government is going to carry out. Let me say that the Labour Government set its hand to it last year, but it had only just started when its thread of life was cut. I do not grudge the right hon. Gentleman the honour and the pleasure of carrying out this reform, because I think it is something the nation had waited for too long. The Committee's Report practically is that all the institutions of the Poor Law ought to be handed over to larger areas, not from any wanton desire to give work to the county councils but in order that this interminable series of mixed general workhouses, which ought no longer to be required, may be allotted to appropriate uses. As a matter of fact, the union areas were mapped out before the railroads and two or three dozen workhouses at present are more than four miles from a railway station. There is one which is more than 10 miles from a railway station. There is, or was lately, one in Wales which was 13 miles from a railway station. What you want to do is, in each country area, to allocate these buildings, one for the aged, one for a maternity home, one or two for hospitals, and so on—allocate them to their different uses.

It is astonishing how administration has been facilitated by modern mechanical inventions. Formerly, if a person was to be taken to a hospital, the hospital had to be near. Now, with the telephone and the motor ambulance, you can take a sick person in an hour from one end of an ordinary county to another, and there is every reason why you should specialise your hospitals instead of multiplying the number of small institutions. Then all the work connected with the sick should be done under the Public Health Acts, all the work connected with children under the Education Acts, all the work for the aged under the Old Age Pension Acts, all the work for lunacy and mentally deficient cases under the Lunacy and Mental Deficiency Acts, all the work of the unemployed under the Unemployed Workmen's Act, which was passed by the Conservative Government in 1905. Then you want a Home Assistance Committee appointed, which would have to be local in order to deal with families. All this is easy enough in a county borough. You want an adaptation of that scheme for the administrative counties and also for London, which could be done quite easily by a scheme on which I hope the minor local authorities will be consulted before it is settled.

I want to make it clear that some of the municipal opposition to this plan his been due to misunderstanding. I know some town councils have been up in arms at the idea of being told what committees they must have. There is no necessity for this at all. It is certain that if you are going to have a grant-in-aid for public health work, you must have all the public health work in one hand, whether it is one, two or three committees. It must not be mixed up with the work of any other committee. So with education work, it must not be mixed up with public health. But there is no need in the scheme to insist that the committee should be named anything in particular or should be formed in any particular way. The question whether you have co-opted members is a separate issue. Certain things seem to me essential. First of all the statutory right of every person to be helped in extreme need—what is called the right to relief—should be preserved in some form or another. Then each class must be dealt with by itself according to its needs. We ought to use the modern statutes rather than the old Poor Law. Therefore you ought to abolish the whole series of Poor Law Statutes and re-enact such provisions as are necessary in supplement of the Public Health, Children, Education, Lunacy and Unemployment Acts. You ought to consult in each counts and in London with the minor local authorities in framing their schemes. Do not override them.

There is one word of warning which I would address to the right hon. Gentleman. It is quite certain that he will have opposition to any proposal of this kind from practically the whole of the boards of guardians. That opposition is extremely well organised, and it may affect some Members of this House, but I do not think it will affect very many. I will do my best to get him all the help I can. It is of importance not to leave any remnants of the Poor Law Authority existing. The Poor Law Commissioners thought that they were going to get rid of the mixed workhouse. They never intended to allow the general mixed workhouse to start up again, but it did start again. The whole history of the Local Government Board and its predecessors from that date to this has been to try to get away from that terrible mistake of allowing the general mixed workhouse to grow up again.

Every reform since 1875 has been intended to take things out of the hands of the Poor Law. There have grown up all these new institutions, all these new authorities, which have developed and are doing much more than the Poor Law authorities do. But they have left the Pow Law with its own clientele, which has again grown and to-day is larger than ever it was before. That will happen again unless care is taken to see that the whole thing is transferred holus bolus to the new authorities. Then it will be the fault of the Ministry of Health and of these authorities if they allow any kind of overlapping or duplication.

Before the House assents to this Motion, I feel that someone should utter a word of warning. I am not at all surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should have made this proposal. He is entirely consistent. He was largely responsible for the agitation for the break up of the Poor Law: an agitation which did not excite much public interest, despite the immense amount of effort that was put into it. When the War came it was completely forgotten for a time, but the appointment of the Maclean Committee to go into the matter further, gave those who desired to break up the Poor Law another opportunity. They are now basing their case upon the Report of the Maclean Committee. There are two points about that Committee which I should like to mention. One is, that the Committee called no witnesses, on the ground that the matter had been fully investigated by the Royal Commission which had commenced its work 12 years previously. The other point is a memorandum by one of the members of the Maclean Committee, Mr. Curtis, who concluded his note of reservation with these words: their work with efficiency and with sympathy.

What is behind this? The conception that amalgamation of necessity means economy. That is a delusion which is shared by two sets of people. Most Socialists hold it, and many big capitalists hold it. You get the same kind of speech when a Socialist is proposing the amalgamation of certain public services that you get from the chairman of a large company which is proposing to absorb another large company. You get an elaborate disquisition on the saving on overlapping services. Some of us with experience of large-scale industry and small-scale industry-have discovered that the efficiency of production is frequently higher even in an ill-equipped little firm than in the best equipped big firm.

The same principle applies in public service. We have many of our municipal authorities overburdened with work. You do not relieve the burden of work if you increase the number of councillors. I am inclined to think very often that the larger the numerical strength of the council the greater the burden of work upon each individual member. If you throw the work of the Poor Law on to the councils you are going to enforce upon those councils additional work, and if you attempt to meet that by increasing the number of councillors you will completely fail, because the more councillors there are the more speeches will be made, the more time will be taken up, the more meetings will be held and the greater will be the burden. As far as this House is inefficient, it is inefficient because there are too many members. They are not always here, I admit.

Even if I did resign, someone else would come in, and perhaps that someone would not be as useful as I am. Is the work undertaken by the boards of guardians similar in character to the great bulk of work undertaken by a town council or a county council? I have not actually served on a board of guardians, but I have served on a borough council, and I have devoted some time to studying Poor Law administration, and I have come to the conclusion that the nature of the work is entirely different. A board of guardians which does its duties properly investigates each case with great care. The members of the board investigate the cases. They do not delegate the work merely to their officials They may be guided by their officials, but if they do their work properly they investigate the bulk of the cases themselves. Because of the nature of that work, boards of guardians have attracted a class of people who are interested in that kind of work and who very often are not interested in ordinary municipal administration.

If you destroy the boards of guardians you will tend to drive out of public life in every town or district those people who at the present time serve the community faithfully on boards of guardians and you will hand the work over to other people, members of municipal authorities, who will not do the work with the same measure of efficiency and sympathy as it is being done at the present time by the guardians. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because every job requires the right kind of mentality to do it properly.

The boards of guardians have attracted large numbers of people who are often not so successful on the platform as those who sit on municipal bodies, but are very successful in their work and are interested in their work, and it is apparently now proposed that they should be done away with on the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman according to the recommendation of a Commission which did not take any evidence and did not receive any representations from the authorities most particularly involved.

The right hon. Gentleman quoted certain figures with regard to the work of the guardians. Those figures were a little misleading. It is difficult at the moment to make any effective comparison between the work of the guardians now and, say, as it was at the beginning of 1906. I take that date because it was a clear year or so before the introduction of old age pensions, which was one of the social measures which did definitely affect the work of the guardians. In the beginning of 1906 in England and Wales, according to figures which I looked up to-day, there were 927,000 persons in receipt of assistance from boards of guardians. Last year, on a day in April, when the figures reached their maximum, there were 772,000 persons, if we exclude those unemployed persons who were temporarily receiving assistance, a class of persons not receiving assistance in 1906. The Local Government Board in their Report say:

But that still leaves with the guardians the problem represented by the 772,000, and I am considering them only, and not for the moment considering those who temporarily, because of the present condition of trade, are being helped in a way that is unusual in normal times. There is still this big problem which represents the main problem of the guardians, being the relief of destitution, and, however many new services you may institute, there must still be a substantial residuum to be dealt with by that body whose function it is to deal with destitution. I am not satisfied that merely by throwing that job on to municipal authorities, whether county councils, county borough councils or ordinary borough councils, which are not designed for that kind of job you in that way increase your efficiency or effect any economy in administration. As a rule, when you get a municipal authority too large you spend more money on coordination than you save by the elimination of overlapping services. That is true not only of municipal authorities, it is equally true of trading companies and railway companies. When you get beyond a reasonable limit of what can be absorbed by one individual concern you get the waste due to the fact that you have to set up an elaborate mechanism of co-ordination, and the larger your unit gets very often the less sympathetic the treatment.

There are many other reasons which we might put forward, but there is one last one of a moral nature, shall I say. You may, by transferring Poor Law functions to municipal bodies, carry the unpopular taint of pauperism along with you and infect those services which are not tainted in that way at the present time. You can re-christen a thing and it will still be the same thing, and it will take many generations before you alter the popular idea merely by giving the thing a new name. I do ask those who are desirous of making these changes to think over this point as well. I do not profess to be an expert on Poor Law administration. I have not spoken to-night at the request of any organisation. I have spoken on my own initiative, because I thought that there should be a challenging word said before we definitely commit ourselves to a new policy of wiping out of existence the boards of guardians, and handing the whole of the functions of those guardians to other bodies. Though there is an Amendment on the Paper in my name, I do not intend, to move it, because I think that the purpose which I had in mind is served by my having had the opportunity of giving expression to the views which I have expressed.

I cannot agree with the last speaker that the taint of pauperism, as he calls it, will necessarily be carried on to other bodies which may be dealing with the evils which are now dealt with by Poor Law authorities. Because from my point of view I regard pauperism as a kind of disease, and I regard the measures outlined in the Motion moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham as a method of dealing with and extirpating that disease. I do think you will not have pauperism as we know it now, you will not have the taint of pauperism, as it is undoubtedly felt to-day when you have children, old people, unemployed men, and all the different categories who have been dealt with with such extreme lucidity by the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate, treated separately and individually and not as paupers, but as the right hon. Gentleman has said, according to their needs.

There need be no question of the taint of pauperism in dealing with children if they are dealt with by the authority which is dealing with all children from the educational point of view. There need . be no question of a taint of pauperism on the medical side of children when the work is being looked after by an authority dealing with the whole of the medical side. It is only because you have in existing circumstances the old mixed workhouses still in, existence, the old kind of institution still persisting, the old bad tradition still persisting that you do ever get the very bad taint of pauperism.

I cannot agree with the suggestion put forward by the hon. Member that, if you abolish the boards of guardians, you are driving out of public life those men and women who give such very valuable services at the present time. Speaking for the South-East of London, South-wark—and my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) agrees with me that the same thing is true of the East End of London—the people who give service on the boards of guardians are precisely the same people who give service on borough councils. One of our difficulties in Southwark is to find enough people to do the jobs at all. We should be very glad indeed to have one less lot of local authorities to fill. Actually in Southwark they are the same people, and, like a stage army, they are always going round and round, and are overworked. I do not propose to deal with the administrative difficulties. I am aware how great they are, and how very much our local authorities are overburdened. You do not get rid of the burden on a particular locality by having a very large number of separate authorities to do the work. You certainly do not get rid of the burden by having a large number of competing organisations who are all attempting and not succeeding in doing any special kind of work.

What I rose to deal with to-night was the medical side of this question. I believe that on that side you are going to get quite unexpected results from the abolition of the Poor Law, and by that I mean unexpectedly good results. If you had all the institutions in London at the present time which have to do with child life, the hospitals, that part of the workhouses which deals with child life, that part of out-relief which deals with child life, and all the other authorities who have to deal with the welfare of children at any time of their career—if you had all those organisations co-ordinated and collaborating with each other, you would have at your disposal a service capable of performing almost miracles for the benefit of child life in London. To the best of my knowledge and belief you would have the same result all over the country. The difficulty at the present time—and I am speaking as one who has had to deal personally with large numbers of children in the South of London—is that they are always taken out of your grasp. You do something for them, you spend a lot of money and time on them, and then they go away and some other authority deals with them. Between not two stools, but half a dozen stools, the children whose care ought to be continuous are always slipping to the ground. That could 'be avoided by a proper coordination of the different authorities dealing with child life. It cannot be done unless the Poor Law is utterly abolished, because the present Poor Law authorities are standing in the way.

I am speaking, not so much from the point of view of an administrator, but from the point of view of a workman interested in the materials in which he works. The materials in which a doctor works are human beings, their bodies and their lives. I want the medical profession to be free to use the enormous knowledge which they have at the present time for the purpose of building a very much healthier, better balanced and better coordinated humanity than exists at the present time. If the House will look back for a few years and recall the very wonderful work that has been done by the school medical service, working even under the limitations which have been imposed on it by circumstances during the past few years, it will realise that we have by that service achieved an improvement in the condition of child life which would have been thought almost unbelievable 25 years ago. If you add that service to all the other organisations which are working in the interests of child life, you will get a correspondingly greater effect. I confess that I speak, not only as a workman, but as a workman with an ideal, a very simple and straightforward ideal, held, I believe, by the majority of members of my profession throughout the land. That ideal is to make science the servant of humanity, and to make it go down to the depths of the life of our nation and improve conditions. I believe that in the abolition of the Poor Law, in the co-ordination called for in this Resolution, you will, through scientific knowledge, get work almost beyond belief.

At the present time it is not lack of knowledge that stands in the way of the physical improvement of children, men, and women living in the cities. It certainly is not lack of sympathy, for sympathy is expressed very freely and perfectly genuinely on all hands. It is not even lack of money, because as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) pointed out, the amount of money expended on these social services is enormous, but we spend it very badly. We have the knowledge to-day that we require, we certainly have the sympathy, and we have the money, but what we do lack is simply order and the co-ordination of existing institutions. For my own part, I regard this particular question as one of such urgency that I would like to see it fill the Benches of the House of Commons instead of unfortunately emptying them. Perhaps another great event that has occurred to-day has something to do with that.

Unless something is done very shortly to remedy the existing evils of poverty in our great cities the insecurity of our present civilisation, which is a very great insecurity, will go on and increase. I believe that our civilisation at the present time is by no means a stable civilisation. If one looks ahead for even a. generation no one can say what that generation would be like. The chief danger with which we are menaced at the present time is not the danger of foreign competition, it is not the danger of future war, but is the danger that the morass of poverty in which our civilisation is foundered at the present time will gradually rise and sap the vitality of our race and the vitality of our institutions. Scientific men in America and in all parts of Europe have been calling attention to this fact. There is a very grave danger indeed that the worst types of human beings, grown and formed by the worst type of environment in the poorest possible parts of this country, of Europe, and of the rest of the world will gradually become the dominating factor in our life. That is undoubtedly a very serious danger. Unless we can, as it were, sanitate and bring the light and the help of science down into the foundations of our civilisation, and make it clean, sweet and humane, and make our civilisation a place worth living in, then I think our civilisation is in a very serious state indeed.

There is another danger in regard to this matter. The human mind has a habit of turning away from things that are painful. The human mind protects itself against the contemplation of things that are painful by forgetting those things. Men take part in a war and think they will never do it again, but a few years after they again enlist. Women who have passed through childbirth say immediately after the pains of childbirth that never will they go through it again. But the mind forgets, fortunately for the human race. It is so with all painful experiences, and the most painful experience that confronts us at the present time is really the existence of the most tragic and dismal poverty within a few minutes' walk of this House. We are always forgetting it. I am constantly forgetting it myself. I cannot bear to hold within my conscious memory all the time the dreadful conditions of life that exist in my own constituency. It is too horrible to think of people crowding together, to think of the suffering that goes on, the mental and the moral degradation, all to a large extent unnecessary, and all existing, not through lack of knowledge or of sympathy, or of money, but simply through lack of co-ordination.

I do not believe that the existing authorities who administer the Poor Law and other social services are actuated by any but the best motives. But they cannot do the job. At the present time boards of guardians cannot deal with the poverty. They have not the power. They are constantly coming to the border-line cases. A board of guardians is approached by a mother who asks for milk. She has a child. They play a game of battledore and shuttlecock with the woman, sending her from the relieving office to the town hall to the maternity and child welfare centre, and then she comes back again. That kind of thing goes on. All the time a very large amount of relievable suffering is not relieved at all. That is the kind of overlapping which is inexcusable. I do not mean that the conditions in this country are not getting better than they were. I think that they are certainly getting better than they were. But they ought to get a very great deal better than they are. I hope the House will not listen to the plea made by the hon. Member who spoke, not instructed by the boards of guardians, but, as it were, speaking from the standpoint of the boards of guardians. I hope that the House will not get entangled in the purely local interests, in the very narrow little circle of ideas of those who think that nothing can be good if it happens differently from what it happened in the past.

Everyone knows that every authority which has been created, whether a board of guardians or a Special Committee or whatever it is, will always fight like anything to maintain its individuality. Boards of guardians, of course, will fight. Those whose life interests have been put into work on boards of guardians are no doubt impressed by the fact, which they think is true, that their work is more valuable than any other kind of work. Of course, their work is extremely valuable. But one must realise that the general interests, the interests of making life conditions better on a big scale, must prevail against the purely local and special interests of boards of guardians which are thinking not in terms of the future but in terms of the past. Although poverty cannot be done away with by any alteration in administration by boards of guardians or other essential services, we can to a large extent do away with its worst evils. I would at any rate remind the House that by a proper organisation of medical services we can probably diminish the amount of disease in the country—I do not want to exaggerate and therefore I say only by 25 per cent. By proper organisation of child life, by the medical care of it, we could go a long way to abolish the ordinary infectious diseases, such as measles and whooping cough, which are not regarded as seriously as they should be because the majority think that they are absolutely unavoidable. They are not unavoidable; they ought to be avoided by a proper combination of medical services. Thus we could go a long way to banish from our life the infectious diseases which chiefly cause mortality in children.

I lay stress on the importance of coordination of medical services for child life because, after all, child life is the foundation of the life of the next generation. I hope that some of those who are anxious to preserve the old forms of the boards of guardians will believe me when I say that it is probable that, under the new dispensation which will come into existence when the present arrangements have been better coordinated, there will be a very much greater scope for much more useful social work than there has ever been in the past—work which will really be constructive, and not merely spoon-feeding, as it were, and keeping things just going. For my own part, I say that medical work has seemed to me, working in a poor district as I have done for a long time, one of the most hopeless kinds of work you can imagine, because where you do something to help to build up your work is all undone again in a few months. The Poor Law authorities are always helping, and then, in a few days or months, all their work is undone. It is really unnecessary. We are spending a lot of money; we are using the services of many skilled officers, medical officers and others. We are using an enormous amount of human goodwill. All of that, working properly together, all of that goodwill and knowledge articulated and made into a real organisation instead of a general scramble, would do an immensely greater work for good than can possibly be done now.

We might say that if we can abolish the Poor Law in its present form, if we can co-ordinate the social services which exist, we can, without any large increase in expenditure and perhaps without any increase in expenditure at all, increase our efficiency at least 100 per cent. I think that those whose delight it is to give their services voluntarily for lifting up others who are weaker and poorer and more suffering than themselves, will find it a very much pleasanter thing to give those services in a way which will constantly be lifting up the general level of poverty instead of merely keeping it, as now, exactly where it is. I hope that the House, when the time comes, will unanimously agree to pass the Measure which the Government will bring forward, if it is pleased to do so, embodying the proposals in the Resolution which the right hon. Gentleman has moved. This matter should be regarded as an urgent matter. Whether we regard it as urgent or whether we have got so used to it as to regard it as chronic, I believe that the bringing into realisation of the proposals for the abolition of the Poor Law and the co-ordination of the social services will have a greater effect on our social institutions than a great deal of the more flamboyant legislation which is much more talked about and attracts larger audiences in the House of Commons.

I have suffered too much as a back-bencher in listening to long speeches in this House, and I am not going to inflict a long speech on hon. Members to-night. But I am sure that it would ill-become me to say one word against that much maligned body of persons known as boards of guardians, considering that what I am to-day is entirely due to the care that I received from those people. I can take many of my friends in all parts of the House round to the school which I attended. I am just as proud of my school as is any Member of this House who went to Eton or Harrow. In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that I have had the honour of taking a member of the Royal Family round my school, in spite of my saying that I believe it is the best school in England, yet I frankly admit that the sooner the Poor Law rule which we know to-day is abolished, the better it will be for this country. Yet I ask the Government to pause before they accept this Motion in its entirety, and particularly to consider that portion of it which refers to the handing over of the powers of boards of guardians to local councils.

In offering what is a criticism but, I believe, a constructive criticism of these proposals, I will only give three points. The first is that the Committee of 1917 made its Report and recommendations before the Representation of the People Act of 1918 was passed. The statement which I am about to make may arouse dissent, but I believe it to be true. It is that when those recommendations were made the Committee had no idea of what would take place under the Representation of the People Act, and certainly it was not contemplated that a position would arise such as we find existing to-day, and that in many cases the people on the boards of guardians who are entrusted with the disbursement of public money are using that power to maintain their position in the administration. It is only human nature that the recipients of out-door relief will vote for the particular party or individual who gives them the highest amount of relief. My second point is this. What improvement can we expect if we accept the Motion in its entirety when, as has been admitted, in many cases the same set of people of all parties who exercise the functions of guardians also sit on the councils? We should get no improvement whatever. My third point—and I offer this as a suggestion to those who may be about to frame a Measure of the kind so proposed—is that we should by all abolish the boards of guardians as they exist at present, but instead of handing over their powers to local councils which are already overburdened with work, it might be possible to set up administrative bodies covering much larger areas. I hope the Government will think twice before accepting this Motion completely and that they will give particular consideration to the point I have raised as to handing over the powers of the guardians.

I am sure the House is indebted to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. S. Webb) for raising a question which is of deep human interest and which requires handling without delay. I hope the Government will be encouraged by this Motion to realise that there is a large amount of agreement among all parties to support them in carrying out that reform of the Poor Law and that co-ordination of local services for which we have been waiting so long. The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) who opposed the Motion fell foul of the Maclean Committee and was very critical of their findings, because, he said, they called no evidence. The hon. Member must have forgotten the huge volume of evidence taken by the Poor Law Commission, which reported in 1909, and which gave the Committee all the information necessary for dealing with this question. The hon. Member also said the functions of the boards of guardians and of the local authorities were dissimilar. He suggested that they were quite distinct, and that it would be foolish to attempt to amalgamate them. Does the hon. Member realise what happens in the average poor home in connection with the administration of relief, and the amount of complication and overlapping which takes . place? For example, you will find the child of a parent, who is receiving relief, going to school and getting assistance through the meals provided there. The child is, possibly, also attending the school clinic and receiving assistance in that respect from the local authority. There may also be attendance by the health visitor. You may find one of the children from such a home in the fever hospital under the care of the local authority; you may find a man, who is out of ordinary employment, receiving relief work from the local authority, and the mother may be attending the maternity and child-welfare centre. There you have five or six points of contact between the home receiving relief and the local authority and, at present, there is no real co-ordination and no proper co-operation.

I hope the House will unanimously pass the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman. It is true that you can enlarge committees and authorities until they become unwieldy, but in this case it is only a question of dealing in the same area with different services and as you have at present an education committee to look after education services and a health committee to look after health services, so you could break up the Poor Law and turn the children over to the education committee and the health services to other committees already in existence. This would undoubtedly make for efficiency. If there is one argument more than another which should appeal to the Minister—and I hope will appeal to him—in regard to the Resolution, it is the need for this co-ordination before assistance can be given from the central fund to local authorities in the form of grants to necessitous areas. The Minister has had to refuse the requests of deputations on this matter and I am sure he would be glad if one of the difficulties in the way of granting these requests could be done away with, as it would be if the reforms foreshadowed in the Resolution were carried out. When one realises the extraordinary differences which exist throughout the country in the incidence of the burdens of local rates, one must also realise the necessity for a reform on these lines. It has been shown that the charge of the poor rate—surely one that should be common to all parts of the country—is 1s. 7d. in Eastbourne and 9s. 2d. in East Ham; 1s. 1d. in Bournemouth and 7s. 3d. in Middlesbrough. These extraordinary differences shows how the burden presses unevenly on the poorest districts and provides an additional argument in favour of this much-needed reform.

I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that there should not be forced on the local authorities any cast-iron system of committees and I hope the Minister will consider that point. When he is delegating to the local authorities the services which they are to carry out he should leave to them the form and scope of the committees which they are to appoint, so that there may be an adaptation of the system to the needs of each local district and not an attempt to foist on them from Whitehall a rigid scheme which may not fit their particular requirements. In that way we should secure at once a strong authority dealing with these services and at the same time a flexibility of method which would enable the particular requirements of each district to be met. I, therefore, hope that this House will unanimously pass this Resolution, which will, I hope, help forward the time when this problem, which has perplexed all of us who are interested in local government for so many years, and enable a solution to be arrived at which will make, not merely for economy, but for efficiency in the good government of our country.

The object of these Resolutions chiefly, I suppose, is to enable us to know what are the views of the Government on the matters which are put before the House, and it is very helpful that the Amendment which was put down has not been moved. Though we do not know yet what view the Government make take, still there are signs that this great reform, which has been urged for so long and, on the whole, with little opposition, is at last coming to fruition. I remember the occasion of the introduction of the first Bill on this matter as far back as the year 1910, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), who moved this Resolution to-night, was one of the few people who really saw what the fatal defect in the Poor Law administration was. I hope the House will realise, because my right hon. Friend could not say it himself, but I can, that really this country does owe to the right hon. Member for Seaham more than to anybody else, this great conception that services in dealing with the succouring of the poor should be preventive and that the old Poor Law system was obsolete and was failing. It is rather gratifying that he, therefore, who was a pioneer in this movement for the breaking up of the Poor Law system, should to-night be the Member who, by the fortune of the ballot, is able to move this Resolution. I would like to mention that, because memories are short, and some people may have forgotten how much we are indebted to my right hon. Friend for the great pioneer and educative work which he has done in this matter in the past.

I wish to point out how, in any Measure which the Government may contemplate, there are certain difficulties which must be overcome. First of all, as my right hon. Friend said, it is absolutely essential that the rights of poor people to relief, the rights to succour, which are now contained in the Statute of Elizabeth, should be preserved. No abolition of the Poor Law system as such, which in any way does away with the right to relief which every person in necessity now has would be tolerated, I am sure, by the country, and, therefore, while at present you have public health services and other services aiding people, the only service to which a man may look in necessity with legal rights of maintenance is the Poor Law in the right which is given him under the Statute. I am sure the Minister of Health, in drawing his Bill will see that that right, which is embodied in the Elizabethan Poor Law, is preserved because it would not be a reform but a going backward if we were to lose that right, which by no means exists in all civilised countries in the world, that right of every person in England, in necessity, at the risk of an action for manslaughter against the relieving officer, not to die in destitution. That must be preserved, and that can very easily and readily be preserved, I submit, and can be vested in and transferred to the local government authority as it exists to-day.

10.0 P.M.

In truth, this work, whether through a change of mind or through chance, of breaking up the Poor Law has been going on very rapidly during the last few years. In insurance, in pensions, in the growth of public health, of educational provision, and of medical assistance, the work has really been going on, and the fact is that the Poor Law legislation to-day is in ruins. There is no system nor co-ordination left. One wing after another has been pulled down or occupied by a more competent tenant, and there is really nothing left now but the decomposing ruins. The Government propose, in their Rating Bill, to take away one of the last functions of the overseers. In the earlier part of last century, one function after another was attached to the Poor Law authority. Things like vaccination, registration of various kinds, rating, and other matters, which had no direct connection with the Poor Law at all, came to be attached to the Poor Law authorities, because there was no other convenient authority at that time by which these things could be done, and now one after another these things have gone, and it must be wasteful to leave standing, in the middle of all these competing services, this decaying and obsolete Poor Law.

I hope the Minister will tell us in no uncertain voice that the Government realise that the time of the Poor Law is over, and that the legislation which was inaugurated right back in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, and which was so strengthened in many respects by the Poor Law Act in the early part of last century, is now to go, that these new schemes, whether they be insurance or the making of direct provision for medical, educational, or housing purposes, will now be formed into one compact scheme, and that this old cloth of local government work shall be removed. I am sure we shall save money by the change. We shall be able to go in for preventive and curative work where we are now hampered by the bad, old Poor Law tradition, and in every way, if this Government should do nothing else than reform or abolish the Poor Law, and alter and modify our local governing authorities on the lines suggested by the Minority and Majority Reports of the Poor Law Commission and of the Maclean Committee, I am sure they will have done a great piece of work, which we, on this side, will welcome as cordially as any of their own supporters.

I think it is desirable that I should respond to the invitation of the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser), and indicate what is the attitude of the Government towards the Resolution which has been moved. Some comment has been made upon the fact that we have not had a very full attendance of hon. Members this evening to listen to the Debate upon this very important subject. I do not think it is due to the sporting proclivities on the part of the House, but it may be that hon. Members have felt that it was a rather academic discussion to-night; and when we come to the actual introduction of a Measure which is intended to bring about some reform of the Poor Law we shall not have any complaints to make of want of interest or attendance on the part of hon. Members. Personally, I am glad that the right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) has introduced this subject, and I think that the speeches that we have heard are interesting, if they may be taken, as I think, on the whole, they may be taken, as typical and symptomatic of the general feeling of all parties in the House towards the subject of the Poor Law and the existing institution of the guardians. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of what was an extremely interesting and informative speech, made it perfectly clear that, in any criticisms that he was directing against the existing system, he was not making a charge against the guardians themselves. I should like to associate myself with him in the tribute he paid to the admirable work which has been done by many individual members of boards of guardians, who have devoted themselves for many years, with great expenditure of time and labour, to the fulfilment of their functions. But times have changed, and matters which have been entrusted to boards of guardians are being handed over to one or more living bodies. I fully believe that there is a general feeling throughout the country that the time has come when there must be an end to the present system, and there must be the transference of the functions and duties of boards of guardians to some other body. I agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading (Mr. Williams) in the danger of expecting too much in the way of economy. You can very easily exaggerate the advantages you are going to get in the way of economy. Although I know that co-ordination is a blessed word, I never thought it could do so much as suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for North Southwark (Mr. H. Guest). But what I do feel is that the transference of the functions might lead to greater efficiency. After all, that is as important in its way as greater economy. You have got a number of services carried on to-day by two different bodies at once. Clearly if those services are concentrated in the hands of one responsible body which can survey the whole field and know exactly what has been done you will have greater efficiency. That, I think, is the case, therefore, for the amalgamation of services under one head.

Then we had an interesting speech from the hon. Member for Bosworth (Captain Gee), who speaks with special knowledge of the subject. The hon. Member asked the House to hesitate before it handed over present powers to one of the existing local authorities. What is the alternative? It was, as I understand it, to set up a new kind of local authority which was to undertake the present functions of the board of guardians and to have a larger area. But surely under that you will still have duplication and the overlapping of services. I do attach very great importance to the observations made, I think, by the hon. and gallant Member for Southwark, that there is to-day considerable difficulty in finding enough people with the right qualifications to fill the places upon our local administrative authorities. If you are going to set up a new body, a particular body that is going to function over such a large area, I believe you would have extreme difficulty in getting hold of persons ready to come forward to do the work. When you consider that as a rule at the election of guardians little interest is taken, and what a small proportion of the electors go to the poll, that I cannot consider is a good feature or one which commends the present system. Nor do I think it is a good thing that the one subject at issue at an election of any (particular body should be the amount of out-relief that is to be given by that body.

If you are to put the administration of what is now a matter of out-relief in the hands of the borough or the county councils, it would be one of the topics upon which an election might be fought, and amongst the views of the various parties and the various sections of the council it might become the guiding issue at the election. The Motion might be described as a preamble and an endorsement of the Maclean Report, and an expression of opinion as to the minimum extent to which that Report should be made the basis of legislation. There was one part of the preamble to which the hon. Member for Middlesbrough alluded which made a special appeal to him, that it is impossible to bring about any general revision of the system of grants-in-aid until you get, first of all, uniformity of valuation, and, secondly, reform of the Poor Law. In regard to the second part of the Resolution, the endorsement of the Maclean Report, I must be a bit more cautious. The right hon. Gentleman has so drafted his Motion that the last part of it limits very much the middle part. What he is asking us to accept may be very much more general than the specific recommendations in that Report.

In that general form I can raise no possible objection to the Motion of my right hon. Friend, but I do want it to be clearly understood if I, as far as the Government is concerned, accept the Motion and offer no objection to it that does not mean that I am in anyway committed to the particular recommendations. Since the Report of the Committee of seven years ago a good many things have happened. There have been changes in the social services. There have been new enactments which have considerably modified circumstances, and further the Report itself, though it has the great merit of reconciling the Majority and Minority Reports of the Royal Commission of 1909, is only signed with certain reservations by some of the members. I was very glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that he did not desire that cast-iron instructions should be given to the local authorities as to how they were to carry out the functions to be imposed upon them, and that they should not be directed to set up certain statutory committees, because that is a point to which special attention was called by Mr., now Sir, J. Curtis, and Mr. Harry Prichard in the reservations they appended to the Report. Both of them agreed that it was not desirable, and that it would be strongly resented by the local authorities, if they were not given pretty ample scope to decide what was the best machinery for carrying out the functions which it was sought to impose upon them. Then, again, there are particular recommendations in regard to which certainly I do not wish to be committed. They have been the subject of long consideration and discussion with the authorities concerned, and it is quite conceivable that they might come to some different solution.

There is one matter to which I must refer. The right hon. Gentleman has spoken of the abolition of the whole body of Statutes dealing with the Poor Law, and I gather he contemplated that in any Measure of reform there would have to be an entirely new set of Statutes which would replace the existing Poor Law in all respects. That, I suppose, is following out the recommendations of the Maclean Committee, which divided up the various services, and said they should be carried on under other Acts suitably extended. Those words "suitably extended" are repeated several times, but the Report is rather sketchy as to the way in which those Statutes are to be extended. I believe there are something like 300 Acts of Parliament in which relief of the poor is dealt with, directly or indirectly. It is a tremendous undertaking to go through those 300 Acts of Parliament, repeal all the Clauses which are at present in operation, and replace them by a new code; and, for my part, I very much doubt whether it would be wise to begin our reforms by a wholesale revision of legislation of that kind.

I think we could probably approach the subject in a more practical manner if we began by transferring administrative functions without, perhaps, altering the law as it stands. I do not mean that the law would not have to be altered, but I think it very possibly might be more easily dealt with if we had had, first of all, some experience of the effect of transferring the administrative functions. We might then, perhaps, have schemes submitted to us, which could be tested a little bit in practice, for the unification of the services, and in time we should be able, I think, to deal with the more thorny and difficult problem of the revision of our legislation, which otherwise, i am afraid, would be such a stupendous task as possibly to jeopardise the whole reform itself.

I would only say, in conclusion, that it is the intention of the Government to deal with this question at the first possible opportunity. I am proposing to follow a course which was adopted for the first time last year, I think, in connection with the Rating and Valuation Bill. That, too, was a difficult subject, it was one in which a great deal of local knowledge was likely to be of extreme value, and the Ministry of Health circulated a draft Bill which was the subject of criticism and suggestion, and that procedure enabled us to produce a Measure which had to a large extent met the suggestions and criticisms of local authorities. I do not think I could do better, in this matter of the Poor Law, than follow that example; and it is my idea, as soon as I have got the main lines formulated in my mind, to discuss them with local authorities, boards of guardians, and all others who are concerned in this matter; to circulate a draft Bill, to obtain all the criticism, all the comments, upon that draft Bill that I can from the people who know the local circumstances and know how things will work; and when I have got all that, then I hope to be able to put before the House of Commons something which will embody the considered views of the Government and may bring this long-needed, long desired, reform to a happy and successful conclusion.

I have a fair amount of sympathy with what has been said on this subject. On one occasion this Session I entered a strong protest on behalf of the overburdened local authorities. I want here to protest against what I think is a great danger in our system of local government. It is not sufficient for the Government to say, " We will take the Poor Law and place its administration on the shoulders of the local councils." I would like to say to those who are making this suggestion that it is no use going to a place like Birmingham or Glasgow, where you have already a great town council, with proposals like those which have been suggested, because at the present moment every workman is practically debarred from serving on those local bodies. Take the case of Birmingham. There you have a huge population controlled by a council who have a hundred and one different interests to look after, such as gas, electricity and water undertakings, parks and other matters. Now you are going to these councils and to say to them, " We want you to administer the Poor Law."

The Glasgow Corporation in many respects is almost as important as the City of Birmingham. For four years I was practically the only Labour member of the Glasgow Corporation who continued during that time to work at his trade. Now you are suggesting that these bodies should have control of the Poor Law. What I wish to point out is, that no man in a large town can properly serve on a board of guardians without devoting a very large amount of his spare time to that work. If you are going to impose upon these local bodies this additional task, what is going to happen in regard to local work? The local authorities are composed of small business men and well-to-do business men, and a large number of the working population are debarred from serving on those bodies, and under the proposals which are now being put forward they will be debarred from taking any part in Poor Law administration. If you are going to co-ordinate these social services and transfer Poor Law administration, you must also see to it that the additional work you give to these local authorities does not impair the right of the poor people to direct representation on those particular bodies. I do not say that merely because you have a large public body which is efficiently administered, because I do not think you get any more sympathy from a large public body than you do from a small one.

If I might cite this example, which some of my Scottish colleagues know, we used to have in Scotland education authorities that were small local bodies, similar to the boards of guardians in England as regards the size of the area, but we decided, in this mania for big things, to abolish them and set up much larger education authorities; and what have we found? We have found, it is true, that it is a co-ordination of services, but alongside that we have found that working people, like farm servants and so on, are now entirely debarred from serving on the education authorities. We find now that the big landlord, the person who has a fair amount of time, controls and dominates these bodies far more than was formerly the case, when the members were people like the local postmaster and others with a larger knowledge of actual local affairs. Therefore, I wish to utter a strong protest against bureaucratic control in local affairs. It is true that it is possible to cite a hundred and one examples of overlapping. In my own city we had the education authority and the town council going to law as to who should feed the school children, and spend many thousands of pounds upon it.

It is not a complete solution merely to make a big authority and keep poor people from serving on it. I hope that in any scheme the Minister of Health brings forward to co-ordinate these services, to unite them and try to avoid overlapping, he will bear in mind that, after all, in dealing with the poor, a good deal depends on actual local knowledge of the poor people with whom you are dealing; and, secondly, that the great need that these poor people have for direct representation on any body that is set up. If you are going to add to the already many duties of these bodies in the big counties and in the big industrial towns, you are going to keep from serving on these bodies an able group of men and women who come from the poor people themselves, but who, from economic circumstances, cannot afford time to serve on the larger body. I hope, therefore, that, in the new scheme that the right hon. Gentleman brings forward, he will make every endeavour to see that these poor people are given every chance of public representation on these bodies.

I should like to say, first of all, that I hope the right hon. Gentleman, when he is dealing with this question, will do something to codify the Poor Law. I will tell him my experience, when I was probably about the age of my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), when I first became a Poor Law guardian. I asked the clerk to give me some sort of document that would tell me what my duties were, what the law was, and so on. He took me into his office and showed me a row of books, and, of course, he might just as well have shown me a public library. It was impossible for me to digest, or even to understand, the various orders and counter-orders, laws and instructions that for about 60 years had been unloaded on the Poor Law guardians. If you are going to start afresh, at least have a try to make the business a little more understandable than it is just now.

The other thing I want to say is—and I notice that the people about whom I am going to say something are here—that I hope the right hon. Gentleman's own Department will be overhauled. The Poor Law Commission, both the majority and the minority, were not quite satisfied that everything was as efficient in the old Local Government Board as we thought it ought to be. I hope that, if this business is going to be dealt with in an effective manner, it will be dealt with on a sufficiently big scale to enable the people who are carrying out the work to do it without receiving so many contradictory instructions from the centre. I am not going to weary the House at this hour with examples, but I am sure that every local government administrator in this House at the moment will agree that we do get contradictory orders from the Department in Whitehall. I think what we ought to aim at is setting up authorities that might be allowed to walk alone, without being shepherded quite so much.

I know that the question of giving relief is one which causes a great deal of humour whenever it is mentioned in this House. I was very much amused when my hon. Friend—if he will allow me to call him so—the Member for Bosworth (Captain Gee) said that people will vote for those who promise them the most. Is there, any hon. or right hon. Gentleman in this House to-night who ever stands for election on any occasion and does not stand up and tell the people that the reason they should vote for him is that he is going to do something for them when he gets into this House? It is perfectly absurd to expect that the poor shall have a higher standard than the average standard in the community. Why should the people bother about the House of Commons, or the town council, or the board of guardians, unless those bodies are going to minister in some way to the well-being of the community, and I stand here quite unrepentant about it all. About 30 years ago, when I first started as a Poor Law guardian, I told the people that I wanted to get on to the board of guardians, not to guard the rates—I have never been a humbug about that; I have told people quite straight, if they want anyone on the board of guardians to save the rates, not to elect me—that I go there to take care of the poor first, which I consider is the function of a Poor Law guardian. It is other people's business to attend to saving money. The business of a Poor Law guardian is to spend money when money is needed. That appears also to be a subject of mirth on the other side. There is this saving grace about me, that I live in the district where the rates are highest, and I have to pay my quota of the rates, and I have done all the years I have been a guardian. Many of the people who criticise me live outside the place, and would not be found dead in it. It is only a business for them to make money out of, and they go and spend it somewhere else.

What I was going to ask the House is to consider what can you do with a person who is sick, or a child who is an orphan, or a woman who is a widow, or an aged person who cannot get his daily bread? What can you do but spend money on them? (What is the use of laughing at it? Why do you have a Poor Law at all? It is in order that people shall not starve and shall not go untended when they are sick, and that little children shall not be in want when the breadwinner is dead. Therefore a Poor Law guardian is of necessity obliged to be a person who votes for spending money. To laugh at that statement is only to show ignorance. The business that you have to consider to-night is not how much money you are going to save on public assistance to people who are in dire need, but how you can do it with the least hurt to their moral character, and in the expenditure of the money getting the best results.

My hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Haden Guest) dealt very largely with the medical side of the business, but the right hon. Gentleman and other Members on the Front Bench who have been at the Ministry know perfectly well that in the business of assisting people who are in need, there is a very thin line now between what is done by the boards of guardians and what is done by the borough and town councils. In our district we who are in one phase of our life borough councillors give milk to expectant mothers and to children, we see to the teeth of children and mothers, and we see to children who are suffering from tuberculosis and other diseases. Just lately we have had the sun-ray cure for the children. They are getting all this treatment, which formerly would have been called pauperism by the Charity Organisation Society, and by all those who discuss social questions and divide people up into those who get public assistance and are called paupers and those who are independent citizens. To-day the supposed independent citizens come to the borough council and get assistance in 101 ways. The board of guardians in Poplar have, I think, a very fine infirmary, hospital, sick asylum, or whatever you please to call it, and lots of other districts have, too. In that institution we can instal everything that we have installed in about half a dozen different parts of the borough under the borough council, and we have a fine operating theatre and a very excellent staff of doctors and nurses, and it seems to me absurd that there should be two authorities in that little district doing the same job so far as medicine is concerned. I might say to my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Buchanan) that I do not know what happens in Glasgow, but what happens in London is that most of us who are on the borough council are also members of the board of guardians.

You may believe in that, but we have not enough men to go round. Another sort of public assistance where we overlap and where the same sort of people, and very often the same people act, is the school managers and the care committees under the Education Authority. There again in our own district we have committees doing that work, and yet the same people once a week will sit on the relief committee, dealing perhaps with the fathers and mothers of the children who have been dealt with by another committee who are attending the elementary day school. It seems to me that this is perfectly absurd and, with all the humour about Poplar, if the right hon. Gentleman would ask the people to look up the Poplar correspondence he would find that over 30 years ago the Poplar guardians asked for this business to be stopped when it was in its infancy. We were one of the first boards to adopt the propositions of the Minority Report of the Poor Law Committee. When we could not get that we asked that you should put in force the MacLean Committee's recommendations. Therefore, we are not people who have come late in the day to ask you to deal with this question. I am saying this, because I want to clear my colleagues from the aspersion that we want still to be in an elective position, and in order to get there we want to maintain a system by which we can give something to our people so that they will elect as. I can say this now, because I am not able to take all the part in the work at Poplar that I have done. There has never been anywhere in the country a finer or more public-spirited body of men and women than these working men and these working-class women—they are practically all working-class men and women—who have done the work of the Poor Law Guardians in Poplar. They have done it always with a single eye to increasing the well-being of our people.

I want this business reformed. No one wants it more than I do; but I want two or three very clear safeguards. I am not quite satisfied with the statement of the Minister of Health. I will, however, postpone criticism until I can see his Bill. I join in the appeal that you shall not attempt to remove the control of public assistance away from the people themselves. I do not care very much how it is done. If it is in a very big area—here I am in disagreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan)—to whom you give the power I do not mind, but, whoever gets the power within the area, I want them to be directly elected by the people of the area concerned.

I shall fight, and I hope my friends will fight, against differential treatment for London as against the rest of the country. I know, not because of anything that happened last year, that there is a scheme. I am not sure that it has been written down, certainly it is in the mind of one of the leading authorities connected with the Poor Law in London, for a glorified arrangement on the lines of the old Metropolitan Asylums Board. Of all the bodies that I think are inept, the most inept body in London is the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and any attempt to impose on London any indirect authority, or to remove from us the right to control public assistance, which we have to pay for, will meet with our most strenuous opposition, because we do not think ourselves a class apart from the rest of the community. We are not going to sit down quietly and see the Minister bringing in a Bill in order to clip the wings of the rising tide of Labour in the Metropolis.

Did I say that? I meant, clipping the wings of the Labour movement or of Labour men and women. [HON. MEMBERS: "You said clipping the wings of the tide!"] I do not mind. Have it as you like. As they say at the Derby, "Have it each way." We, in the East End of London, have, captured the boards of guardians, practically, and we are very suspicious of the zeal that is being shown to reform us and to give us some better system. We do not want to be reformed except on our own lines. The only system of reform which we want is one which will safeguard the victims of our own society. We want that they will continue to be in the position to control those who have to deal with them.

Further, whatever organisation is set up, whether you hand us over to the borough council or the county council, if social reforms are to grow, whether you are a Socialist or not, the tendency appears to be that more and more of the services which we require will be organised for us by the community, and though I think that I am a democrat — perhaps I am not — I think that all our views of democracy will probably have to be reconsidered It will be impossible to find the men and women to man the various authorities that will be necessary if you want to maintain the present idea of democratic control. It will be impossible to find the people to do it and at the same time get their own living. This House has found the task of getting all classes represented impossible without paying some money to enable men to come here and not have to follow their ordinary occupations in the places where they have been living. In addition we have now to pay their fares. I believe that that revolution in conditions in this place will ultimately lead to a much smaller House of Commons and a House of Commons that will have to work harder. We work hard in a way, but we work hard at doing nothing a very large part of the time. I believe that this House will have to become a much more businesslike, workaday assembly, and a smaller one, and in regard to municipal and local government services, I think that the trend of things must be for a bigger unit of administration.

It will be a hard thing for us in Poplar to be wiped out as a representative body. When you have been at work on a thing for a large number of years, even if you were doing it badly, if you were doing it according to your lights there is something which attracts you to it and it to you. You may laugh at the old-fashioned guardians who come to you on deputations, but all of them have been doing very good work indeed in their own way up and down the country. I think that perhaps smaller bodies have got to come with bigger powers, and when you do that this House will have to pay them. You must not make the representation too big as you have done in the case of this House. You must not let the numbers be so great that the cost will be overwhelming, but you must face the fact that you will have to provide some sort of maintenance to carry on the work.

The work of the London County Council—I did it for three years—is much harder and takes up more time than the work of this House, and unless you say that it is only what you call the moneyed or leisured class who are to do this work —and that you cannot maintain at this time of day—you must do the other thing, and have as big an area as you can with the smallest number of repre- sentatives consistent with the work that has to be done, and pay them adequately for doing it. With all those reservations,. I shall like to see the right Eon. Gentleman's Bill, and I can promise him that at least in East London we shall thoroughly discuss it and give it as fair a consideration as we possibly can.

Many of you will be here when some of us who are as old as I am will not be. Do not think that when you pass this Bill, you will get rid of poverty and destitution. The real thing that this House one day must get down to is to get rid of the causes that make clinics and the rest necessary. I resent every day I live that poor people should have to come in front of me and ask for relief. I regret more than I can say that people as good as I am have to knock at my door and ask me to help them to get public assistance. I want to remove the causes. While I will hope to do the ambulance work that you arc proposing to do, I would beg the House to consider whether, after all, it would not be better worth our while to sit down and consider how we can get rid of unemployment, and of the beastly, foul, noisome slums that make all these public services necessary, instead of trying to continually patch up a system which cannot be patched. No matter what you do, it will get worse until you remove the root cause and that is making men and women work in order to make profit for other people and not to support their own needs.

I listened with great pleasure indeed to the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams), who sits just across the Gangway, and I listened with equal, if not greater, pleasure to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister when he agreed to accept in principle the Motion, and foreshadowed what he purposed doing with regard to sending out a suggested Bill so that he could get the benefit of the suggestions of those concerned with: regard to its construction. As one who has been in Parliament now for about five years and feels he has been able to do very little, if any, good, I do feel that if I can say one word on a subject of this sort that will help to bring forward a reform in regard to the abolition of the boards of guardians and the system which, in the main, they control, I shall have done some small service. As a youngster and as one of a family of seven where the breadwinner got 25s. a week, I do know something about poverty. In those days I had two ambitions. One was to enter Parliament, to see if by any possibility I could influence matters so that we could start work a little bit later than six o'clock in the morning and the other was to try if possible if I could help to do away with the system of workhouses. When I was a boy and we used to have mill parties there was one song that was always well received, and it finished like this. I am not going to sing it because an old colleague of mine used to say that Greenwood knew only two tunes, and that one was "God Save the King" and the other was not. I shall certainly not attempt to sing. The words were:

Rather than do away with the guardians I think it is of much greater importance that we should do away with the system that requires their assistance. It is a great shame that there is only one period in our lifetime, and that during the War, when we could say that the workhouses were empty and derelict. I am looking forward to the time when there will be no need for what boards of guardians now have to do, when there will be no need for workhouses, when those who would now occupy them will have some work to do, or the relief which they deserve can be given in some other way than by segregating the poor from amongst us and branding them, as they are when going into the place which in Lancashire has borne the hated name of the workhouse.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That, in view of the costly overlapping of services and duplication of establishments in the various branches of public provision for the children, the sick, the aged, and the unemployed able-bodied, and as a necessary preliminary to the much needed revision of the grants-in-aid in relief of the burdens now pressing so heavily on local authorities and on industry, it is essential that any measure dealing with the Poor Law should be framed, generally, on the lines of the Report of the Committee of 1917 on the Transfer of Functions of Poor Law! Authorities in England and Wales; and this House accordingly urges that the Bill which it is. intended to prepare and circulate to the local authorities this autumn should at least provide for a complete absorption of the existing Poor Law authorities and their functions in the county, borough, and district councils."

Criminal Justice [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law, with respect to the administration of Criminal Justice in England and otherwise to amend the Criminal Law, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the expenditure of local authorities under the provisions of the said Act relating to probation of offenders, and towards the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence of such sums as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct and subject to such conditions as he may with the like approval determine."

Resolution agreed to.

Teachers (Superannuation) [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to the grant of superannuation allowances and gratuities to teachers and to persons employed in the control or supervision of teachers and to their legal personal representatives, and to amend the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898, and the School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1924, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as are necessary to defray the expenses incurred by the Board of Education in carrying the Act into effect:

Provided that there shall not be defrayed as part of such expenses—

( a ) any addition as from any date before the commencement of the Act to the allowance or gratuity payable to any person under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1924; or

( b ) any addition to an annuity or allowance payable at the commencement of the Act to any person disentitled for benefits under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1924, who is not after the commencement of the Act employed in service which is, under the Act, contributory service."

Resolution agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Naval Officers (Marriage Allowance)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Not withstanding the late hour, I am sure the House will be interested and no one will be more pleased than my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty by a reference to a fundamental point in constitutional law raised last evening during the Debate on the grant of marriage allowances to naval officers. The point raised by my right hon. Friend was a direct contradiction of a principle laid down by Erskine May, and set out in less than a line and a half. I crave the indulgence of the House to quote it.

This is a question of saving my right hon. Friend from his friends. I do not refer to Members of the Cabinet, or even to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who evidently has different opinions, because the Cabinet as a whole is committed to this proposition. I refer to the permanent officials in his Department, and I ask him not to allow them to force him to adopt an interpretation of the decision of the House different from that which has been received by this House, received by the service of which he is the head, and understood in the only possible way in which public opinion can understand it, namely, that the Government has decided for equal justice to officers of the Navy as compared with officers of the Air Force and of the Army in respect to marriage allowances. Why are the permanent officials of the Department pressing him to take a different decision? It is obvious that he would not do it on his own initiative, and he cannot do it on pressure from any of his colleagues, because this Vote comes forward as a message from the Crown. The reason is this. There is a long-standing tradition in the Navy and among those who administer it that junior officers cannot have marriage allowances. Students of naval history of the days of Nelson, Collingwood and St. Vincent know very well how this matter was treated in those days. A junior officer might have the finest prospects, but if he married he was told by the Commander-in-Chief he could not expect any more help of any sort. Those traditions remain, and undoubtedly it is the fact that those traditions are still being pressed upon the Board of Admiralty by those who have been bred under the old system. Now that women have votes, however, and are represented in this House these conditions have to be swept away in the same way that we have swept away the system under which, when a battleship was paid off at Plymouth, for instance, 500 women went on board for a week. That was the counterpart of the marriage allowance as it is now called. The right hon. Gentleman, cannot I think, very well escape from the dictum of Sir Erskine May on the subject. I, therefore, hope there will be no further delay in the matter.

I have expressed to the House my views on the marriage allowance, and I was wondering whether the object of the hon. Gentleman in his remarks was to strengthen my hands, or to suggest that they required strengthening. As I have already said, I am thoroughly convinced that the case is a just one, and, therefore, have done all I could to persuade my colleagues that my contention is right. The hon. Member said something about the permanent officials interfering. I do not understand what he means.

You have the traditions of the Nelson and the Collingwood period. It is the mentality of the permanent official.

I thought my hon. Friend was suggesting some kind of influence exercised by the permanent officials of the Admiralty. If that were so, I should just like emphatically to repudiate it, for they have assisted me in drawing up the case for the marriage allowance, and I am very much indebted to them for having done so. They have in no way been obstructed.

The sequence of facts is this: Those against a marriage allowance have advised their chief to adopt a compromise, namely, instead of . giving marriage allowances which they do not want to permit at any cost, to have an increased rate of pay for the Navy in comparison with the Army and the Air Force. That compromise was a fundamental error in principle.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members not being present,

The House was adjourned at Seventeen Minutes after Eleven of the Clock until To-morrow.