House of Commons
Thursday, May 28, 1925
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Military Manœuvres Acts, 1907–1911 (Order in Council)
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Captain Hacking) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that I will make an Order in Council under the Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, a draft of which was presented to your House on the 10th day of February last.
I will comply with your advice.
Private Business
Darlington Corporation (Transport, Etc.) Bill,
Fylde Water Board Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill,
Manchester Ship Canal Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
London County Council [Money] Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 11th June.
LEICESTER FIRE BRIGADE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order made by one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, under Section 32 of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, modifying the provisions of Part IX of the Leicester Corporation Act, 1908, in respect of the pensions, allowances, and gratuities payable to members of the permanent fire brigade of the city, of Leicester, their widows, children, and dependants," presented by Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSON; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 191.]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Elections (Postage Facilities)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider, in connection with the proposed franchise conference, the suggestion that the present free postages to candidates should be done away with, that instead free postage facilities should be allowed to returning officers, and that the latter should distribute the election addresses and poll cards of the candidates, using the same sets of envelopes for the communications of all candidates in any constituency?
The proposal will be noted for consideration, but I think that considerable objection will be taken to duties of this character being imposed on the returning officers.
Forcible Feeding (Asylums and Prisons)
asked the Home Secretary whether patients in lunatic asylums are still forcibly fed; how many were so fed in the year 1924; what was the maximum number of times any one patient was so fed; how many prisoners in His Majesty's prisons were forcibly fed in the year 1924; and will he give their names and the maximum number of times any one prisoner was so fed in 1924?
As regards the earlier parts of the question, which relate to patients in asylums, I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Minister of Health. The number of prisoners in prisons in England and Wales who were forcibly fed in 1924 was eight. There are objections to stating the names. The greatest number of times any one prisoner was forcibly fed was 570. This prisoner is a burglar who will not take food, and has to be fed forcibly three times a day. His case is entirely exceptional.
Although I know that the right hon. Gentleman cannot give the names, perhaps he can say how many of these cases are in Wales and how many in England?
:I am afraid I shall have to ask for notice of that question.
Off-Licences (Compensation)
asked the Home Secretary whether he will introduce legislation to place off-licences under the Compensation Act in a position similar to the on licence?
I do not see my way to propose any licensing legislation at the present time.
Aliens
Residence Permits
asked the Home Secretary how many aliens have been allowed into Great Britain for permanent residence since the present Government took office, and can the reasons for any such admissions be generally stated?
Analysis of the figures of aliens who entered the country in the year 1924 (excluding residents returning after absence abroad) shows that the number falling into categories of people whose stay in this country may be expected to be permanent is 2,177. These categories include wives and children joining husbands and parents, other relatives joining persons who are able to support them, persons coming to marry British subjects, persons of independent means coming to reside here, and persons coming to join religious houses or to do religious work. Full details are given in the statistical return recently published, and similar figures will be given for the current year when the next statistical return is compiled.
I understand from the answer that careful inquiries are made with regard to the admission of aliens into this country, and that they are only admitted under very special circumstances?
Certainly. I am very glad indeed to have this opportunity of stating that of the large number of aliens who come into this country, all go out again, except about 2,000 a year, who fall into the categories which I have stated, and who, for special reasons, such as the kindness of relatives and so forth, are allowed to remain here longer. The increase is certainly not more than 2,000 a year.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any recent figures showing the variations from the averages of the past two or three years?
My hon. Friend asked me whether I could give the figures since the present Government took office. I hope the hon. Member who has put this question will wait until the statistical year ends, because it would involve going through some 400,000 or 500,000 cards relating to aliens who come in and out. All this will be done in the ordinary course at the end of the year, and I shall be glad to give full details to the House for the' year of my administration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that his mesh is close enough with regard to aliens who enter this country, and who follow the occupation of waiters in London and other large cities?
The question of waiters is dealt with in reply to another question. My reply is that every possible inquiry is being made. As the House knows, I have endeavoured to tighten up the mesh, and at present I am able to say that I am satisfied with the administration of the Aliens Act.
Is any action taken with regard to aliens who are resident here, not necessarily at the time they enter, in order to see whether they have entered under proper precautions?
That is another question, and it should be put down on the Paper.
Cab-Drivers' Licences (Refusal)
9 and 10.
asked the Home Secretary (1) the reason for the refusal of a licence to drive a cab to H. Pyle by the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police;
(2) the grounds on which the renewal of a licence to drive a public vehicle has been refused to Ruben Daley by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police?
The Commissioner of Police is required by statute to be satisfied of an applicant's good behaviour and fitness for the situation before he can grant a licence. He was not so satisfied in the cases of H. Pyle and Ruben Duhy, to whom I presume the latter question refers. It would not be fair to these men to state publicly the main specific reason for the Commissioner's decision, but I will inform the hon. Member of the reason should he so desire.
Would the right hon. Baronet look into the question of the general system of granting licences? Is he not aware that most of these accidents on the streets are due to incompetent drivers?
I thought the suggestion was rather that we were too severe in regard to granting licences. Great care is taken in the granting of licences that the men should be of good character—I am speaking now of public vehicle licences—and fit for the work they propose to carry out.
Factories Bill
asked the Home Secretary whether he can now say when the Factories Bill will be introduced; and whether it is the Government's intention to proceed beyond the First Reading this Session?
I regret that I cannot make any statement at present.
Is the right hon. Baronet aware that there is a great feel- ing in the country that certain provisions which are omitted from this Bill ought to be included?
The Bill is now being very carefully considered by a sub-committee of the Cabinet, and, until that consideration has been completed, I cannot make any statement, but I hope to introduce the Bill this Session.
Seeing that the introduction of this Bill is being postponed, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that meanwhile the present Factory Acts are properly administered?
That is a question which should be put down.
Housing
Steel Houses
asked the Minister of Health how many steel houses of all kinds have been erected since 1st January; and how many are now on order for local authorities and private individuals?
The total number of houses of external steel construction to which I understand my hon. Friend refers, included in approved schemes in England and Wales is 178, apart from 150 such houses to be erected for demonstration purposes. Figures are not at present available of the number which have been completed. For figures for Scotland, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Secretary for Scotland.
Are steel houses which are erected for demonstration purposes necessarily taken down afterwards, or are they let?
They are not necessarily taken down afterwards. The local authorities will have full powers to do what they like with them.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many types of steel houses are included in the number he has mentioned?
I think four or five.
Subsidy Houses Authorised
asked the Minister of Health the total number of houses sanctioned this year, and also during the last month, by his Department for erection with State subsidy under the 1923 and 1924 Housing Acts, respectively?
The total numbers of houses authorised from the 1st January to the 20th May, 1925, are, 35,822 under the Housing Act, 1923, and 41,942 under the Act of 1924. The latter figure includes 9,000 houses which had previously been authorised under the Act of 1923. During the four weeks ended on the 20th May the numbers authorised were, 4,706 under the Act of 1923, and 8,377 under the Act of 1924, of which 3,106 had previously been approved under the 1923 Act.
Lunacy Visiting Committees (Women Representatives)
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the number of borough and county institutions for the care of the insane where no provision is made on the visiting committees for female representatives; and whether he is prepared to see that such omissions are rectified and the appointment of women visitors taken in hand?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Exeter (Sir R. Newman) on the same subject on the 2nd April.
Infant Mortality
asked the Minister of Health what was the death rate last year in workhouses and infirmaries of infants under two months old; and the number of deaths through natural causes or those consequent following operations?
Statistics as to the total number of deaths of children under two months old in workhouses and infirmaries are not available. As to the last part of the question, the only figures available relate to deaths in 1923 under, or in connection with the administration of, an anæsthetic. There were no such deaths in that year of infants under two months old in a workhouse or workhouse infirmary in England and Wales.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain facilities have been granted by Westminster Hospital for mothers to attend these operations, and remain in the hospital, so that they may feed their children at the breast, and thus give them a better opportunity of getting well?
Contributory Pensions Bill
asked the Minister of Health what is the relief in respect of rates which is estimated for typical rural and semi-rural areas, respectively, from the operation of the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill on the basis of calculation by which 6d. relief is anticipated in Glasgow and 1s. 4d. in West Ham?
In the two cases mentioned by my hon. Friend the calculations were based on returns and figures supplied by the parish council and the clerk to the guardians respectively. I will endeavour to obtain similar materials for certain rural and semi-rural areas, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Does that mean that, in considering the effects of this Measure, the Government have not yet obtained information in respect of rural areas, as they have in regard to industrial areas?
No, Sir; we have not any information as to semi-rural or rural areas.
asked the Minister of Health whether the statutory conditions laid down in Clause 5 of the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill apply to the special provisions embodied in Clause 18 in so far as they relate to widows of men who served in any branch of His Majesty's Forces during the War?
Paragraph ( e ) of Clause 18 provides for the modification of the statutory conditions laid down in Clause 5, and the conditions, as so modified, will apply to the widows of men who served during the War.
asked the Minister of Health whether any provision has been or will be made whereby persons desiring to emigrate can obtain the return of their contributions to the old age and widows' pensions fund?
The answer is in the negative.
Direct Taxation (Statistics)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amounts brought under the survey of the Income Tax Commissioners for 1919 and 1924, and the total amounts collected under the headings Income Tax, Super-tax, Death Duties and Excess Profits duty for the years 1919 and 1924, and the amounts left in the hands of those subjected to those duties?
As the reply is a long one, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the reply:
Income Tax. —The aggregate amount of statutory income, assessed to Income Tax in the year 1919–20, of taxpayers with incomes above the exemption limit was £2,547,179,823, and the net produce of the tax in respect of that income was £336,555,563. Statistics are not yet available for the year 1924–25, but the following estimates have been prepared for the year 1923–24, namely:
£ Aggregate amount of statutory income of taxpayers with incomes above the exemption limit 2,300,000,000 Yielding a net produce estimated at 263,800,000
The whole system of graduation and differentiation of the Income Tax was altered in the year 1920–21, and while the standard rate of tax was 6s. in the £ in 1919–20, it was only 4s. 6d. in 1923–24. Any comparisons between the figures above are subject to the effect of these changes.
Super-tax. —The aggregate income of individuals liable to Super-tax in the year 1919–20 amounted to £409,997,477, and the net tax payable to £47,520,743. For the year 1923–24, the corresponding figures are estimated at £510,000,000 and £62,500,000. In this case, also, the point of liability to tax has been altered from £2,500 in the former year to £2,000 in the latter, and the entire scale of rates of tax increased.
For both Income Tax and Super-tax, the statistics for 1919–20 relate to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and all Ireland, while those for 1923–24 relate to Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Death Duties. —The collection of statistics of these duties, which was suspended during the War, was only resumed from the 1st July, 1919. Statistics are therefore only available for nine months of the year 1919–20. The particulars available are as follows:
— Nine Months of 1919–20 (from 1st July, 1919). Year 1923–24. £ £ Aggregate net capital liable to Estate Duty. 288,772,599 441,895,962 Net receipt of:— Estate Duly 26,896,698 49,804,961 Legacy, Succession and Other Duties. 4,530,151 7,751,866
Excess Profits Duty. —No comparable statistics of this duty were collected, and I am only able to state the net receipt from this duty (including Munitions Levy), namely, in 1919–20, £289,208,046, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and all Ireland, and in 1924–25, £2,737,000 in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For the former year the net receipt may relate to accounting periods ended at any time prior to the 31st March, 1920, and for the latter year, as the duty was repealed in 1921, to accounting periods ending at any time up to the varying dates from which the repeal took effect.
The hon. Member will be able to make his own calculations of the amounts left in the hands of those subjected to these duties, subject to the caution that, as respects individuals with a total income liable to Super-tax, such income is also liable to Income Tax, but that the statutory bases on which income is computed for these two taxes are not identical.
Finally, I may add that comparisons drawn between 1919–20 and 1923–24 or 1924–25 need to be viewed in the light of the great changes that have taken place in the level of prices, the conditions of trade and the rate of interest.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of remission under the heads of Income Tax, Super-tax, Death Duties and Excess Profits Duty for the years 1919 and 1924; and how such remissions compare with remissions on Excise and Customs duty in 1919 and 1924?
In reply to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the figures contained under the heading "Inland Revenue" in Table VII of the Financial Statement for 1919–20 (House of Commons Paper No. 88) and in Table X of the Financial Statement for 1924–25 (House of Commons Paper No. 60). With regard to the second part of the question, remissions of Customs and Excise duties amounted to £4,450,000 for 1919–20 and £29,800,000 for 1924–25.
Wages (Reduction in 1919 and 1924)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, from the Board of Trade Returns for the years 1919 and 1924, he can give the total estimated reduction in wages for 1919 and 1924?
I have been asked to reply. In each of these two years there was a
Potable Spirits (Ships' Stores)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the number of gallons of potable spirits of British origin shipped in bond by British vessels as stores for consumption on board during the year 1923–24 and to date?
Separate figures in regard to British vessels are not avail-
net increase in rates of wages, but between the end of 1919 and the beginning of 1924 there was, in the industries and service for which statistics are available, a net reduction in weekly rates of wages of about £5,790,000. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" for January, 1925, which contains, on page 4, a table giving further particulars.
Is the hon. Gentleman in a position to know the increase and reduction that have taken place in connection with all the industries of the country?
The only information I have is summarised in the "Gazette" to which I have referred, and, if the hon. Member likes, I will send him a copy also. It shows all these figures.
United States (British Debt)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can issue a memorandum explaining in what form interest on the American debt has so far been paid?
I am causing to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table which will give the information desired by the hon. and gallant Member.
Following is the table promised :
able, but the quantities of home-made spirits delivered from bonded warehouses in Great Britain and Northern Ireland for use as ships' stores on all ships during the calendar years 1923 and 1924, and during the period 1st January to 31st March, 1925, were 209,145, 242,230 and 53,200 proof gallons, respectively.
May I ask why those who go down to the sea in ships and have their business on the great waters should drink their spirits free of charge while we have to pay duty?
That would require an argument.
Income Tax (Gross Assessment)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the gross assessment of Income Tax for each of the financial years ending 31st March, 1913 to 1925?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statistics contained in Table 56 of the 67th Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue (Command Paper 2227), which shows the gross income brought under review, the actual (or statutory) income of taxpayers with incomes above the exemption limit, and the net produce of the tax, for each year from 1913–14 to 1923–24 inclusive. Estimates for 1924–25 are not yet available.
Does not the gross assessment include Very large items which in many cases are not income at all?
That is so.
Sugar Beet Factories (Foreign Material)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether any companies owning sugar beet factories are importing material from abroad for building purposes either new or second-hand; and whether it has been found impossible to purchase such material here?
( for Mr. EDWARD WOOD): Information supplied by the beet sugar factory companies shows that no material for building purposes is being imported from abroad.
Will the hon. Baronet inquire whether steel girders—and secondhand at that—though not regarded as building material, are being imported as "plant and machinery"?
I will make inquiries into that.
Is any pressure being brought to bear on these companies against importing material from abroad which they can obtain in this country?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to an answer which I gave yesterday.
British Empire Exhibition (Agricultural Exhibits)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what, if any, representations have been made to him by the Council of Agriculture for England, or other advisers of the Ministry, as to the absence of popular appeal in the agricultural exhibits in the British Government Pavilion at the British Empire Exhibition; and whether steps can be taken to profit by the example of the Dominions, and depict the activities of our own highly-farmed countryside and the merits of British home-farmed produce?
My right hon. Friend has not received any representations of the kind suggested in my hon. Friend's question from the Council of Agriculture for England or from other advisory bodies. The exhibit in the Government Pavilion is confined to examples of the educational and research work carried on under the auspices of the Government, and the space allotted to the Ministry would be quite inadequate to depict the work of the agricultural industry as a whole.
Will the hon. Baronet represent to the Minister the desirability of some representative of the Ministry going down to see what a dead affair this is?
Yes, Sir.
Horses (Export)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is yet in a position to make any announcement as to the introduction of legislation to put an end to the exportation of horses for slaughter on the Continent, and whether he has any figures to show if this exportation is decreasing?
As this trade is at present the subject of inquiry by a Departmental Committee, my right hon. Friend can make no announcement pending the receipt of the Committee's Report, which he expects to receive about the end of June. With regard to the second part, the Ministry has no means of ascertaining the actual number of horses exported to the Continent, which are slaughtered on arrival.
Can the hon. Baronet say whether the agreement with France and Belgium as to slaughter in this country of horses intended for food in those countries is being observed?
I will inquire about that.
Do I understand the hon. Baronet to say that no record is kept of the number of horses exported to the Continent?
I said that the Ministry has no means of ascertaining the number of horses exported which are slaughtered on arrival on the Continent.
Post Office
New Services (Capital Expenditure)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the Post Office is permitted to incur outlays on capital account in respect of improvements and developments other than the acquisition of land, the erection of buildings, and expenditure relating to telegraphs and telephones?
Yes, Sir, subject to the consent of the Treasury and the provision by Parliament of the necessary funds.
Does that mean that the Postmaster-General has power to initiate new services?
Subject to the qualification I have mentioned.
Cash-On-Delivery System
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the general interest in the proposal for a cash-on-delivery system, he will publish the statistics and comments of other countries as supplied to the Post Office Advisory Council?
Papers furnished to the Advisory Council are confidential, but, if he will put down a question, I shall be glad to supply the hon. Member with any statistics that the Department possess as to the extent which the cash-on-delivery system is in use abroad.
Telephone Material, Newcastle-On-Tyne
asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the telephone cables which are being laid by, or on behalf of, the Post Office telephones at Newcastle-on-Tyne are marked "Made in Germany, Carlsberg"; can he give any explanation as to the date these orders were given; and why the preference was not given to British firms?
This cable, which is of a type not produced in this country, was ordered on the 13th January, 1925, for experimental purposes, to enable certain technical data to be obtained. If practical tests show that cables of this type are satisfactory, British manufacturers will be invited to undertake production.
Even if this cable could be obtained more cheaply in Germany, is there any reason why it should not be obtained here?
Yes, Sir, I think there are a good many reasons.
May we be informed what are those reasons?
Is the cable in question for the new Central Exchange, and, in view of the shifting of the site, will these cables be adaptable to the new situation? May I also ask whether the work is being carried out by the Office of Works or privately?
I am afraid I must ask for Notice of that question.
Has it anything to do with the change of site of the Newcastle Telephone Exchange? It is not in connection with the new exchange?
Not in particular.
Air Survey, East Africa
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether any project is being considered for an ordnance survey of East African territories from the air?
Not at present. Correspondence is in progress with the Colonial Office regarding the possibility of air survey in another part of the Empire, and any conclusions which may be reached will be to a great extent of general application. But it is clear that every such proposal must be separately considered according to its special circumstances.
Is the Air Ministry satisfied of the utility of their survey as a substitute for the land ordnance survey?
Yes, Sir, they are very satisfied.
Unemployment
Prosecution, Trowbridge
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that Henry William Hobbs, of Trowbridge, was prosecuted by one of the officials of the Employment Exchange for receiving money under fraudulent pretences because he was given 5s. to sing at a Conservative concert; that Hobbs spent 4s. on two comic songs and 8½d. on grease paint, leaving 3½d. for himself; and that the bench dismissed the case; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent such action on the part of officials of Employment Exchanges in future?
Henry Albert Hobbs was prosecuted on the instructions of my Department and not on the initiative of the local Employment Exchange officials. My inquiries are not yet completed, but I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.
Assuming that a man who is receiving unemployment pay is in the habit of having a few chickens, and they lay eggs, and he sells the eggs, is he liable to prosecution?
That is a hypothetical question. I should require to have full particulars before I could give an answer.
Why were inquiries not made before the prosecution took place?
Benefit Disallowed
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that Albert Howes, aged 24, of 155, Southwark Park Road, S.E.I, has been disallowed unemployment benefit at the Bermondsey Employment Exchange for six weeks from 9th April to 21st May, 1925, on the ground that he has not been genuinely seeking work and that he has failed to accept the employment offered to him; that leave to appeal has been refused; that the proffered employment consisted of a position as shop assistant in a fried fish shop, at the White City, 89, Jamaica Road, S.E.; that the hours of employment in the said position were 14 per day and 84 per week, namely, from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. and from 5 p.m. to midnight each weekday including Saturday; that the wages offered for this work were 30s. per week, or 4¼d. per hour; that the man concerned is an experienced fish-fryer and counter-hand; and that he has to support his widowed mother; and whether he will intervene in the case and see that the man's benefit is restored to him?
I am having inquiries made, and will inform the hon. Member of the result as soon as possible.
Royal Navy
Shipbuilding Programme
asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made by the committee which is examining into the naval shipbuilding programme; and when its Report will be ready and presented to Parliament?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we were given to understand that this matter would be settled before the Budget, and we have been disappointed?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite mistaken. There was no undertaking about the Budget at all. The undertaking was that it would be announced to the House in sufficient time to allow of the passage of any Estimates which might be required.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the period is approaching when discharges will take place in the shipyards?
Equally the period is approaching when an announcement will be made.
I find I was wrong. I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon.
Royal Dockyards (Foreign EmployéS)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is, as far as possible, prepared to apply to employés in Royal Dockyards the rule adopted in the consular service for giving preference to applicants who are British by descent, apart from place of birth or naturalisation or domicile; and whether he is prepared to obtain a Return of the number of foreigners employed in dockyards, men whose parents were foreign, and men who are liable to military service in France or Italy under the laws of those countries by reason of descent, and those liable to arrest if found there on British service, respectively?
I presume my hon. Friend refers particularly to dockyards abroad. Preference is already given to British-born subjects for established situations, where employés enter the permanent service of the Admiralty, and serve for pensions. It would, however, be impracticable to apply such a rule for engaging local labour hired by the week or by the day. I am afraid the compilation of a Return, as suggested in the second part of the question, would involve an amount of labour, which, in the circumstances, could not be justified.
Could not the Admiralty make some arrangement by which application is made to the Employment Exchanges when these men are wanted abroad?
Will steps be taken, in reference to Malta Dockyard, not to give a preference to those who have been notorious as canvassers politically for those who want the Italian instead of the British flag in Malta?
Royal Naval Reserve (War Courses)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that senior officers of the Royal Naval Reserve are experiencing difficulty in obtaining the necessary permission to undergo the special war courses provided for under Article 83 of the Regulations for the Royal Naval Reserve (Officers); whether this Article has been suspended and, if so, for what reason; and whether he can give the number of Royal Naval Reserve officers who so far have been allowed to take these courses?
It has not been found practicable to carry out the special course for Royal Naval Reserve Officers laid down in Article 83 of the Regulations, but arrangements have now been made for a place for one Captain or Commander Royal Naval Reserve, to be reserved at each of the war courses held half-yearly at the Royal Naval War College, Greenwich, commencing with the course starting in October next.
In view of the diminished personnel of the Navy, are the Departments of the Admiralty fully alive to the extreme importance of giving every possible means to officers in the Merchant Service who belong to the Royal Naval Reserve to maintain efficiency?
Certainly.
Airship Development
asked the Prime Minister whether the relations between the Admiralty and the Air Ministry in regard to airship development have been considered by the Committee of Imperial Defence; and, if so, whether he is in a position to announce the Government's decision in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No alteration in the existing arrangements is at present contemplated.
Long-Kange Aerial Bombardment
asked the Prime Minister whether suggestions recently published for international agreement in regard to the limitation of long-range aerial bombardment have received the consideration of the Committee of Imperial Defence; and whether, as a result, it has been possible to frame proposals for restrictions suitable for international discussion?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Owing to the difficulties inherent in the subject, His Majesty's Government have decided to await further international discussion on the question before formulating their considered views.
Empire Cotton Growing
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the progressive competition for an inadequate world supply of cotton, he is prepared without delay to establish a department for the growing of cotton within the Empire on a commercial basis, as an extension of the work of the British Cotton Growing Association?
I am not prepared to say, without very careful consideration, whether such a scheme is practicable, or whether it would in fact add anything to the efforts which are now being made to stipulate cotton growing in the Empire. The work of the Empire Cotton Growing Corporation and the British Cotton Growing Association will receive every support.
Irish Boundary Commission
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is in a position to state when the Irish Boundary Commission is expected to make its Report?
No, Sir.
Is it possible to give any sort of estimate as to the probable date?
That question has been already answered. The hon. and gallant Gentleman takes up much time by repeating his question.
Russian Diplomatic Correspondence
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if there is any limitation on the weight or number of diplomatic bags admitted with diplomatic immunity into this country for the Russian Chargé d'Affaires, and, if so, will he state what those limitations are?
On a point of Order. May I point out that this question has been repeatedly asked? May I ask your ruling whether it should be allowed to occupy the time of the House?
I shall value highly the example of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
The limit is one bag weekly not exceeding 22½ lbs. (11 kilogrammes).
Coal Industry (Capital and Bonus Shares)
asked the Secretary for Mines whether his attention has been called to the fact that large sums of money put to reserves to be used to meet emergencies arising in the mines have been used as additions to capital and to bonus shares; and will he say what is the total amount so used, together with the amounts for each year from 1919 to 1924, inclusive?
I have no information about this.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman make inquiries? Is he not aware that in Durham many of the companies have taken their reserves and added them to capital and to-day they are laying up collieries because of lack of money?
That is not a matter that comes under my control, but I can make inquiries, but I shall not be able to do anything.
Gun-Firing, Felixstowe
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on recent Sundays heavy gun-firing from Brackenbury Fort, Felixstowe, has taken place; and whether, in view of the fact that Felixstowe is largely used as a health resort by people with shattered nerves and for convalescent purposes, he will inquire as to the possibility of dispensing with this gun practice at a fort which was only built during the War and rarely used?
With regard to the first part of the question, I am informed that gun firing from Brackenbury Fort has taken place on one Sunday only this year, when 20 rounds were fired. As regards the second part, I regret that it would not be possible to dispense with gun practice at this fort, owing to the requirements of training and defence.
Royal Air Force
Reserves
asked the Secretary of State for Air what progress has been made in the formation of Royal Air Force Reserves during the present year; and how many flying officers are at present available and ready for immediate service in the Reserves?
As regards the first part of the question, the present strength of officers in the Royal Air Force Reserve of Officers represents a material increase upon the strength as at 1st January last, and I hope that the rate of progress will still further be improved when the field of recruitment has been widened, as contemplated in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Hallam on 20th February, 1925. The answer to the second part of the question is that the number of officer pilots at present in the Reserve is 611, of whom 522 are in regular flying practice and immediately available.
Aerodrome, Odiham
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that 500 acres of the best arable land in Hampshire, at present under the plough, have been taken over by the Air Ministry for the purpose of building an aerodrome at Odiham; why arable land has been diverted; and why the aerodrome at Stockbridge, about 20 miles from the present site, was recently dismantled if it is considered necessary to have an aerodrome in that part of Hampshire?
The aerodrome to be established near Odiham is one for a squadron allotted for training and cooperation with Army units in the Alder-shot Command, and it is essential that it should be as close to Aldershot as possible, and, in any case, within a distance of 10 miles. An exhaustive survey of the whole district, covering 600 square miles, has been carried out by an expert board of officers, and it has been found that the only suitable site is that at Odiham. The former aerodrome at Chattis Hill, near Stockbridge, is about 38 miles from Aldershot, and is, therefore, well outside the permissible radius.
What is going to be done about the agricultural labourers who are to be thrown out of employment?
Was the decision arrived at without the county agricultural committee being consulted?
Why was the aerodrome at Stockbridge dismantled, and how far is this change in borrowing large sums of money consistent with the Government pledges of public economy?
My noble Friend will realise that it is essential for the aerodrome to be close enough to Alder-shot to enable the squadrons to be in close touch with the units of the Army with' which they have to work.
Will the hon. Baronet tell me if the county agricultural committee was consulted?
I must have notice of that question.
Is the hon. Baronet aware that the Minister of Air assured me on the Air Estimates that the question of not erecting new aerodromes in the South of England was receiving attention on strategic grounds? Does he not see that they would be absolutely useless in war time?
That is a matter of opinion.
Will my hon. Friend answer my question as to the attitude of the Government in regard to labourers who are being displaced?
New Airship
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the airship to be constructed at the Government factory at Cardington is being designed and will be employed solely for experimental use in the development of airship flight, or, if not, what commercial, naval, Army or Air Force requirements are being provided for in the design of the airship?
The airship is being so designed that she will be readily adaptable for service or for commercial use. At present, however, the prime object is to construct an airship with good aerodynamic efficiency and with a large margin of disposable lift. The design is not sufficiently advanced to allow of the consideration of specific commercial, naval, miltary or Air Force requirements.
Ex-Service Smallholders, Kirkcudbright
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that the Board of Agriculture contemplate raising actions against certain ex-service smallholders in the Sheriff Court of Kirkcudbright for payment of arrears of rent and other charges; that the smallholders in question have been working their holdings for a considerable time under difficulties in the matter of drainage and fencing; that the men concerned have invested practically the whole of their savings in their holdings and are unable to defend any actions raised; and if he can now see his way to postpone the actions and accept the offer of the payment of arrears in instalments?
I am aware that the Board have instructed actions against five of the Terregles holders, of whom one left his holding some time ago without meeting his obligations. In the other four cases the actions are in respect of arrears of rents and building loan annuities, as reduced retrospectively by the Land Court on a revaluation which both the Board and the holders agreed to accept. When making the revaluation the Land Court had all the circumstances before them. The offer made by the holders of part payment of the arrears in instalments spread over seven years cannot be accepted as a satisfactory settlement, and in the circumstances I am not prepared to direct the suspension of the proceedings, which have only been taken as a last resort and after full consideration.
Aliens' Subversive Activities
Landing in United Kingdom Refused
( by Private Notice ) asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that certain undesirable aliens are endeavouring to enter this country on the plea of attending a conference on the 30th of this month, and if so what steps he proposes to take to prevent their landing?
Yes, Sir. I do not feel justified in granting facilities to enable aliens known to be engaged in subversive activities abroad to come to this country, to confer with those engaged in similar activities here; and, with the full assent of His Majesty's Government, I have issued instructions that such persons shall not be admitted to the United Kingdom. Visas will be refused to any who may apply for them. Any who are found arriving at British ports will be refused leave to land by the immigration officers, and any landing without permission will be deported.
Is the conference referred to a conference of the British Fascisti?
What steps have been taken by the right hon. Gentleman's Department to see that these persons do not arrive in this country through the Irish Free State?
As I have said, telegraphic orders have been given to refuse facilities. Orders have been given at all the ports to prevent these immigrants coming in. The police have been instructed.
Is the conference which these persons wish to attend an illegal conference, and have the Government decided that propaganda for Communism is now illegal?
That does not arise out of the question. I was asked whether aliens who were engaged in subversive activities should be allowed to come to a conference in this country. The answer was "No."
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain the difference between subversive propaganda for Communism and subversive propaganda on the part of Portuguese Royalists in this country. I want to know whether the Government are going to discriminate against one form of political propaganda and another?
I have not noticed any propaganda of Portuguese Royalists inimical to the Constitution of this country.
Did not the answer of the right hon. Gentleman allege that the delegates who were to attend this conference in this country are engaged in subversive propaganda? Does the right hon. Gentleman regard that subversive propaganda as illegal, and, if so, what action does he intend to take?
I do not think that arises. The right hon. Gentleman is not quite correct in quoting my answer. My answer was that I did not intend—that the Government do not intend—to allow these aliens who are engaged in subversive activities to come here, to confer in this country with those who choose to have a Communist conference.
That is a twist unworthy of you.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that he was going to prevent foreigners engaged in subversive propaganda from conferring with British people engaged in subversive propaganda? The OFFICIAL REPORT will record it to-morrow.
May I ask what is the conference?
I understand it is a conference of Communists to be held at Glasgow. That is public property. I understand that various Communists from abroad, aliens to this country, are applying and have applied for permission to come here, and attend that conference. I decline to give permission.
Is it not a fact that last year some of these very people who are applying for permission to come to this country were admitted, and is it not a fact that nothing untoward happened?
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information that these people settled in a house at Earl's Court on arrival, and have been engaged in subversive propaganda ever since?
Can we have a definition of "subversive propaganda"? May I ask whether it is illegal in this country to propagate Communist principles?
There are certain things in this country which are permitted to British nationals. The hon. Member himself, or any other hon. Member, may make certain speeches here which may or may not be within the law, and I may not choose to prosecute. The decision of the Government is that they will not permit, so far as they are able, foreigners to come here to do that.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is the result of communications with other Governments, so that British nationals shall not take part in international conferences abroad, and whether this is the first fruits of that side of an international arrangement?
No, Sir. This action was taken by His Majesty's Government, without reference to any other Government.
Several HON. MEMBERS rose—
Anything further on this matter must come in debate.
Mr. Speaker (Cambridge University Degree)
I have to ask the indulgence of the House for one moment. The University of Cambridge has done me the honour to propose to confer a degree upon me on the 9th June. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] As this proposal is, no doubt, due to the office to which the House has called me, I ask permission of the House to be in Cambridge on that day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"]
Adjournment of the House (Whitsuntide)
Resolved,
"That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 9th June."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Business of the House (Supply, Etc.)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Notice of Motion relating to Mr. Speaker's action on the 25th May have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and that Seven of the Clock be substituted for Five of the Clock in the Resolution of the House of the 27th May as the hour at which Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House this day without Question put."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Is there any time limit upon the Debate in regard to the Censure upon Mr. Speaker.
No.
Question put, and agreed to.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Major Kindersley.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to—
Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Bill,
Air Ministry (Croydon Aerodrome Extension) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Law relating to Law Agents in Scotland." [Law Agents (Scotland) Bill [ Lords. ]
Orders of the Day
Mr. Speaker's Action (25th May)
I beg to move,
The Motion which I have to move can be viewed in two aspects. First of all, it is an attempt to vindicate two great principles, the rights of minorities in this House, and free debate upon the taxation of the people. Secondly, it invites the House to express its regret at the decision which Mr. Speaker gave. I do not hesitate to say that these principles which we are attempting to vindicate to-day form a most important portion of this Motion. I would remind the House that, in the first form which I submitted on Wednesday in this House, it was the principles alone which were referred to; but Mr. Speaker pointed out that, in accordance with the Rules of this House, such a Motion was not in Order. Accordingly, it has been put in Order in the form in which it now appears on the Paper.
I need not tell you, Mr. Speaker, that no Private Member of this House could be called upon to perform a more difficult or a more painful task, or one requiring a greater sense of duty than that which I am attempting to perform to-day. Such a task could never be sustained were one not impelled by a belief that it is the duty of Members of this House to uphold, in circumstances of whatever difficulty, the principles upon which the greatness of this House depends. The first of those principles is the protection of the rights of minorities. There is a Rule, No. 26, regarding the Closure. That Rule was never intended, when passed, to be used in suppression of relevant, reasonable Parliamentary Debate.
Let me remind the House of its origin. The Rule as to Closure was first passed in 1887 These benches were then occupied by the Irish Nationalist party. Had this been their Parliament, they themselves often said that they would have treated its traditions with respect. But it was not their Parliament, and, as Mr. John Redmond, standing where I stand now, has often said, in my hearing, they regarded themselves as aliens, forced here against their will. They devised and pursued systematic, organised, deliberate obstruction. They themselves would be the last to deny it. Against that the Closure was aimed. But even in those circumstances the Government of the day thought fit to put into this Standing Order No. 26 specific words to the effect that the power of Closure should not be used, except it should appear to the Chair that it was not an infringement of the rights of minorities in this House.
Does anybody suggest that we on these benches have been guilty of obstruction? Has anyone of Parliamentary experience seen in this Parliament obstruction from any quarter? I say "No." Let me remind the House that, small as our numbers are, it is merely due to the curious chances of our electoral system. We are certainly a minority in the country, but we are not a minority in the country so insignificant as we are a minority in this House. Three million votes were cast at the last election in support of the 30 or 40 Members who sit on these benches. Can anyone allege that an adequate opportunity was given to us when the Finance Bill was before the House of Commons? I am not speaking about the proportion of time which was given to us, though one hon. Member who was called was, and was known to be, speaking against the avowed and otherwise unanimous decision of the party. Does, any hon. Member say that an adequate opportunity was given to us, with any regard to the time generally allotted in the House to this Bill? May I make a comparison? Within the last week there was before the House a Bill, which, though important, in comparison with this Bill, was insignificant. It was a Bill for extending for two years the powers of parish councils in Scotland to grant relief to able-bodied men. For nearly seven hours the House of Commons sat— and I sat too nearly to the end—debating that Bill. Eight hours were allotted to the discussion of the whole of the finances of the year. Twice on the former Bill was the Closure asked for against hon. Members above the Gangway, and twice exercising your powers, rightly if I may say so with great respect, you, Sir, refused the Closure. I do not envy or grudge one hon. Gentleman here the power and the respect which they inspire in the House of Commons, but I say this, that if seven hours was not adequate for the discussion of a Bill of that kind, then to restrict to eight hours the debate on the Finance Bill was giving a most inadequate allowance.
Why is it important in the interests of this House that the rights of minorities should be protected? In the first place, there is an external reason. Through great changes in this country, through revolutions, this House has always remained the chosen instrument for the expression of the popular will. If once the people who send us here believe that they send us in vain—that we shall have no opportunity of putting forward the views which may certainly represent for the time being the opinion of the minority—if once they think that their representatives are impotent, and forced to be silent, then a blow is struck at the confidence and pride which the people of this country take in the House of Commons. And there is an internal reason. Members of the minority of the House of Commons should be assured that in your safe keeping are their rights, and that by an observation of the Rules of the House and by strict relevance, by strict obedience to the Orders, their rights are protected, and not by any appeal to disorder and to clamour.
There is nothing permanent about a minority. There is nothing permanent about a majority. At the time when I entered this House first the great party opposite was outnumbered by three to one, and the powerful party above the Gangway was founded in this House by a man sitting in a minority of one, so that I should not make an appeal in vain to them to support the rights of minorities. It is the right of the Commons House to control taxation. The very origin of our existence is levying contributions on the subject. For centuries we fought the Crown in order to preserve the same right to ourselves. The powers of the Crown have passed to the Executive. Are we any better off if we have to surrender to the Executive armed with these powers? If so, we are bereft of our safeguards, of those very rights for which we fought and which we successfully vindicated against the Crown.
The Second Heading of the Finance Bill is a very solemn occasion. In Ways and Means we discuss the changes in taxation. The Ways and Means Resolution are the proposals of the Chancellor for changing taxation. The Third Reading of the Finance Bill is the occasion for discussing the constructed system of taxation. We should be out of order if we made any speeches except in reference to the proposals of the Government. But the Second Reading of the Finance Bill is the only Parliamentary occasion from year's end to year's end when this House has a free opportunity of examining the whole of the taxation, and it would be ill indeed if, on this vital matter of Government, the Closure were granted without adequate discussion. The granting of a Closure is almost in such a case without precedent. We have to go back 12 years since the Closure was applied to this Bill, and then it was not applied against the Opposition. On the great Budget of Sir William Harcourt in 1894, the Closure was never applied at any stage. The Budget of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was fiercely contested by the Opposition, but was never closured at any stage. On the occasion of the last Budget before the War, in 1914, four days were allowed by a powerful Government, with a large majority, for the discussion of the Bill.
We have rules of the House as to the conclusion of the business. We had the One o'clock Rule. Then the Twelve o'clock Rule was introduced, and the Finance Bill was exempted. Then the Eleven o'clock Rule was introduced, and the Finance Bill was exempted. Why? Because the principle upon which this House is founded is that no taxes shall be levied on the subject unless the representatives of the subject have the opportunity of making the views of the subject known in this House. This Motion is not intended as a mere reflection on the Speaker, universally and justly popular in this House. There have been many Speakers, but there has been only one House of Commons, and I say that this Motion is a vindication of the great principle—and it is nothing else than that— that there shall be no taxation without representation.
12 N.
What happened? On the Report stage of the Ways and Means Resolution we discussed—I venture to say the discussion was inadequate—the great subject of the Super-tax payer. It was dealt with in a perfunctory manner. Hon. Members were not at liberty to express fully their opinions. Again, on the Report stage questions were asked and not answered, and we were told to await the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Questions were offered at the Table, and could not be taken because we were told that we must await the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Those questions were not answered. The Bill was printed on a Monday. The Chancellor came to this House, made a speech, and announced, for the first time officially, complete changes in the most onerous, and, as I think, the most objectionable of the whole of his financial proposals. He altered their whole character from being what be alleged to be according to one fiscal system, into another fiscal system. At the conclusion of his speech, he made an announcement dealing with what is the fundamental objection to his proposals felt by many hon. and right hon. Members on the other side. He announced he was to do something which would relieve industry from the burden of the pensions charge, and then, an hour or two later, he was followed by the Prime Minister in the first contribution the Prime Minister had made to our debates on this subject. His views were expressed with all the authority which the views of the Prime Minister command —and rightly command—in this House, and my right hon. Friend rose to examine those views. Then an ex-Cabinet Minister, an ex-Financial Secretary to the Treasury, rose. What happened? The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose in his place. What are minorities to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
If this Motion means anything at all, it is directed against me alone, and against no one else. It is quite impossible to discuss the Closure as the decision of the House. It is a very old standing rule that no Member must discuss the decision of the House.
I desire to be strictly in order, but I must point out—and that is the point to which I am coming—that the proposal made was impotent and ineffective, unless it received the assent of the Chair.
The hon. and gallant Member must criticise the Chair and not the Closure.
I may say this. You, Sir, did not propose the Closure. It was proposed by the Government, and my case is that the proposal of the Closure in these circumstances by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had already been convicted of trying to evade the Rules of the House in his Ways and Means Resolutions—
That is introducing quite an irregular matter into this Motion. This is solely concerned with my unfitness for my duties. That is the subject of this Motion.
On a point of Order—because this is of the very essence of this Motion. Our case is—and I want to know whether we are in Order—that the Debate was Closured, but only Closured, of course, by your consent. It was Closured upon the finance of the year without adequate discussion. That is the whole pith of the case. Otherwise, I say at once, it will be quite impossible for us to present the only case that we propose to make.
If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Standing Order No. 26, he will see that any Member in any quarter of the House has the right to put to me the question of the Closure. On me alone rests the responsibility whether or not I accept that Motion. Therefore, the responsibility is mine, and no person in any quarter of the House can be blamed for putting to me the question.
Then I put it to you, as a question of Order, that it is in order for us to discuss the question of the application of the Closure by you, without actual discussion of the Motion before the House?
That is the purport of this Motion—that I did not carry out the trust imposed upon me in this Chair to maintain the proper rights of the Members of the House.
That is the point I was attempting to make. I was describing the circumstances which led up to the necessity for your decision, and I was criticising, or examining, the decision you made, and, naturally, the decision you made, the prudence or the judgment which you exercised, must depend upon the circumstances in which the Closure was moved. That was my only reason for referring to the circumstances, and the circumstances, in my judgment, did not justify the acceptance of the Closure under a Rule which says it must appear to the Chair that it is not an infringement of the rights of minorities, or an abuse of the Rules of the House. I say that to propose the Closure, and to assent to the Closure in such circumstances, is an outrage upon Parliamentary traditions.
I have said all that I have to say, and I tell you that I have never attempted any task in this House with greater reluctance, or one which has presented greater difficulties to me. I do not care how small the minority in the Division will be, but I say that, in days to come, there will be some who will recall with gratitude the effort which a few of us here made to-day to vindicate the rights of the House of Commons.
:I beg to second the Motion.
In the few words which I wish to add to the proposition moved by my hon. and gallant Friend, I should like to begin by saying that I share in the satisfaction, which, I think, is felt in all quarters of the House, and which you, Sir, if I may presume to say so, must also feel, that, a Motion of this sort having been put down, it has been possible to arrange for it to be debated at once, while the difficult and painful subject is quite fresh in all our memories. There is one more reason why I take satisfaction in the circumstance that we can debate it at once, because as soon as my hon. and gallant Friend first indicated his desire to raise this question, it appeared that in some quarters his wish to do so was being misinterpreted either as an attack upon the good faith and honour of yourself, or as a disregard of the due order and discipline of the House. There is no ground whatever for either of those misinterpretations, and I think the speech my hon. and gallant Friend has made has shown that to everybody. I recognise, I think as fully as any Member of this House, that the step we have felt it our duty to take is a grave step, a very unusual step, and I feel, if any Member in this House can, the painfulness to the full of taking any part in it. The circumstance that by the rule of the House such a question can only be raised by a direct Motion, gives our action, I am aware, unless it be construed in its true sense, the appearance of something that is personal to the point of extreme invidiousness. I wish to assure you, and I hope you will believe me, that nothing is further from the intention of my hon. Friends and myself than that the matter should be presented in that spirit.
You thought it your duty to intervene just now to point out the limits in which speeches in support of this Resolution must move, and I desire to say one word on the subject of the machine of Closure. I thoroughly understand what you have been good enough to point out—that the matter in debate is not the moving of the Closure, but the acceptance of the Motion when the Motion was made. May I point out to my colleagues in the House of Commons that with which we are all familiar, but which, in this connection, perhaps, may not be given its due force and emphasis—not only the trite and familiar rule that once the Question is put, no debate or explanation is possible, but that in practice the vote taken on a Motion for the Closure is a vote which is given by the majority that supports the Government of the day with the minimum of deliberative judgment. It is all very well to say that the decision is a decision of the House of Commons. The result of every vote is the decision of the House, but the plain, palpable fact is that, once the stage is reached where the Chair thinks it right to put the Closure, the result of the vote is certain if the Government and their Whips have got their majority at their command. Anyone familiar with it—and you, Sir, were once a Whip—knows perfectly well that Members come in, and as they approach the doors, there is only one word that need be said to them by the Government Whips. That word is "Closure," and, instantly, without another inquiry, everybody who is supporting the Government of the day automatically votes "Aye." It may be, and I think is, a fair thing to add that, almost equally automatically, the Opposition vote "No."
But the fact of the matter is, that your decision in the matter—exercised, I know, with the greatest devotion to the service of the House, and, I dare say, often exercised in very difficult circumstances—really concludes the matter as a matter of plain fact. I wish most respectfully to submit that the facts, now that they are considered in relation to the debate of the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, do make a respectful protest necessary. The Chancellor of the Exchequer from the outset has insisted that his Budget and his Finance Bill must be considered as a whole. He said so inside the House, and he said so outside. He described it as a "series of inter-related balances," and he has again and again told the House of Commons that, in their criticisms of his proposals, his proposals must be considered as a single scheme. My hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out that the only occasion when that can be done is the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. I have here the ruling of your distinguished predecessor, now Lord Ullswater, when an attempt was made to give a similar latitude to the Debate on the Third Reading of a Finance Bill. Mr. Speaker Lowther, on the 21st June, 1918, said: I remember very well some years ago, on the Second Reading of a Finance Bill, that Members of the Labour party raised and developed at considerable length their views on the Capital Levy. Such a discussion, I apprehend, was in order at that stage. I venture to think it is quite clear it would be utterly out of order at any other time. Not only so, but there was another consideration which, I would respectfully submit to you and the House, made the opportunity for further debate really absolutely necessary. The Prime Minister had intervened for the first time in defence of the Budget. His Chancellor of the Exchequer had already been challenged as to how far proposals which he was putting forward could possibly be squared with the Prime Minister's declarations and pledges to the country. This is not the occasion to discuss whether they can or whether they cannot. All I will say is, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had disposed of it very simply by saying that, whatever pledges were given, they were never intended to tie his hands in the matter of these taxes, and then, when the Second Reading Debate came, the last speech was the speech that was made by the Prime Minister when he, for the first time, offered his Parliamentary defence for departures, as many people think, from his previous assurances, which, surely, was a fair and proper subject for debate.
HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"
I do not think hon. Gentlemen will think it unreasonable, at any rate for some Members of the House, to hold that view very strongly. In these circumstances, let me speak quite bluntly as to some of the considerations which, no doubt, were floating in the atmosphere of the House. That you, Mr. Speaker, exercised your discretion in all good faith, nobody questions; but that does not alter the fact that there were these two considerations floating in the atmosphere of the House. First of all, there was this consideration: My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had appealed to the Prime Minister to give us at least two days for debate. If I may say so, he had been very reasonably received by the Prime Minister, and it is plain that if it were not that the Whitsuntide holidays were so near upon us, that appeal, as an appeal, might very well have been granted. It was not granted. But the refusing of a second day, surely, did make it more than ever necessary that there should be a full use of the time which Parliament does provide for discussions of finance. The second consideration floating in the air was this: Many hon. Gentlemen of the Labour party know quite well that it is very inconvenient to some Members of the House, including some in that party, if the House does not break up for the night before midnight, and, as far as I am concerned, I shall always welcome any reasonable arrangement which will save any hon. Members from being put to inconvenience and kept out of his bed or made to go a long journey at in inconvenient hour.
There is not the slightest doubt—and we say it bluntly and frankly—that those considerations were moving between the two Front Benches, that the respective Whips were considering the matter; and while I do not question that you, Mr. Speaker, endeavoured to discharge your duty by considering nothing except what you thought to be your duty, I venture, I hope without impropriety, to say that such considerations as those must, at any rate, have been within your knowledge. I regret it when Members of Parliament are kept out of their beds, just as I regret it if they lose their holidays. But I solemnly submit to the House that really it is intolerable if considerations of personal convenience of Members are to cut short the traditional, established, constitutional right to debate the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Therefore, the conclusion to which I am very regretfully forced to come is this: I realise that it is in the highest degree invidious to criticise a decision by a Speaker who is so invariably courteous, who is so entirely devoted, and who, I hope I may say so, is the friend of us all; but, at the same time, I respectfully submit that, on consideration, there was a grave invasion of the freedom of debate in that department of Parliamentary discussion which is entitled to the greatest available latitude.
In my concluding words, I would say that there is no doubt about it that I had not the slightest personal reason for intervening. I was, in fact, kept away in the country until about 9.30 on that day by the funeral of a relative. I then came into the House, and was here from that time continuously. In the circumstances, I did not expect to be able to take part in the Debate. But I am speaking, I am sure, for a very large body of opinion in the House when I say that it was with the greatest astonishment that we discovered that no opportunity would be given to anyone to continue the Debate after the Prime Minister sat down.
I would have liked the Prime Minister to speak before I intervened in this Debate, but I understand that it is your desire, Mr. Speaker, that those whose names are attached to the Motion should state their case before anything is said on the other side. Therefore, I willingly accede to that arrangement. I would like to repeat and emphasise the observations which were made by my hon. and gallant Friend, the Mover of this Resolution, in the very admirable speech which he delivered, by saying that there is no more unpleasant and invidious task that anyone can be called upon to discharge than to have to make a speech, and certainly to support a Motion which challenges in the least the authority of the Chair in any Assembly. It is all the more unpleasant with a Speaker who, I respectfully say so, stands well with all parties in the House. It is only a very deep sense of duty that could possibly impel any Member, especially a very old Member of this House, as I am, to take this stand to-day. I have been a Member of this House for thirty-five years. I have been a Member longer than anyone else, except one. Therefore, I speak with a prolonged experience of several Speakers, of several discussions, of several Closures moved and Closures resisted. It is with deep regret, and after a good deal of reflection, and upon my responsibility as an old Member of this House, that I take this stand to-day.
I am not complaining of the treatment of individuals. I am not complaining even of the treatment of a group. I am raising a much broader issue, and that is that Debate has been restricted and stifled after very inadequate discussion upon the most important question that can be raised in this House at this moment. I will give the facts only summarily, in order to show what was the position. May I say, first of all, that you, Mr. Speaker, made it quite clear that there is only one way in which we can raise this discussion. You made it clear that we cannot challenge the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in moving the Closure, because, inasmuch as you assented to it, there is only one way of raising the matter, and that is by challenging the action of the Chair. Therefore, we have taken the only course which is possible in order to raise the issue. I am making that statement in order to show that it is not so much a personal matter for yourself as a challenge—[ Interruption. ] Of course, it is. I am raising the question because there has been a curtailment of the freedom of discussion to which you, Sir, have assented, and, therefore, we have put down this Motion. I am pointing out that this is the only way in which the procedure can be challenged.
What are the facts? Here is a financial statement which involves the provision of £900,000,000 for this year—a very heavy expenditure, and a growing expenditure. The provision involves the creation of new taxes which, taking the 4d. on industry (which has been treated as part of the whole tranasction) raises new taxes to the extent of £34,000,000. The trade of this country is in a very bad way. There is the most serious depression that we have ever seen. We wished to raise the question of economy, the cutting down of expenditure, because taxation was crushing industry at the present moment. This was the one opportunity in the whole course of the year when that subject could be raised. If the Prime Minister had got up and said, "We will give you two days for the discussion of expenditure"—that has been done before—then there might have been some excuse for it. But seeing that it was the only available opportunity, after time had been given for reflecting on the character of the Budget—the one available opportunity for surveying the whole finance of the year, for considering the effect upon industry of that gigantic sum, for making suggestions to the Government with regard to the cutting down of expenditure, and for appealing to the Government to do so— and may I also say, as one who has been at the Treasury, as I was for years, that there is nothing which strengthens the hand of a Government more in cutting down expenditure than debate in the House of Commons upon the subject—
HON. MEMBERS: Order, order!
—ifwecannot point that out, we cannot make our case. I want to be able to point out how very vital was the issue on Monday last, and that there was no time to discuss it. I have been Chancellor of the Exchequer, and when I made my speech I flattered myself that I saw no signs that hon. Members were as tired as they have appeared to be when I have heard other speeches. That was one issue that we wanted to raise, and it was vital. What else was involved? There were four new taxes, and three of them, if not four, were highly controversial. I am coming to precedents of a similar character to show what other Speakers allowed, and what other Governments allowed for the discussion of Budgets, which were less controversial than this Bridget, but which involved new taxation. Not only were the taxes new, but there were new principles introduced.
On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman in order when he asks the House to suppose that the Second Reading of the Finance Bill is the only opportunity for the discussion of new taxes?
That is not a point of Order. This is not the occasion for the undelivered speeches of Monday last.
I am delivering no undelivered speech. What I had to say I said on Monday, to the best of my ability. Unless I am in a position to point out what was the case against the Closure and against the action taken by the Chair, then I fail to see what possible argument anybody can advance on a Motion of this kind. I am bound to point out the importance of the occasion, the fact that there were absolutely novel principles introduced which ought to be discussed. If I am not to do that, I really do not know how a Motion of this kind can ever be argued on the Floor of the House. I am going to take precedents, and I will give two. They are on the question of time.
In 1920, as the right hon. Gentleman said to me when I asked him for more time, there was discussion for only one day, although there was new taxation. That was new taxation which was accepted by the House, and the Budget went through without a Division. Supposing on that occasion the Liberal Opposition—which numbered 25 or 27 in those days—had opposed it, and pressed the Government for more time; supposing they had said, "We object to these taxes root and branch on grounds of principle, and demand a discussion," I cannot imagine the right hon. Gentleman who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer or the right hon. Gentleman who was then Leader of the House ever trying to closure the Debate on that Motion. But it went through without even a Division. I will come to another case. I am not going to give the case of the highly controversial Budget of 1909, because, whatever you say about it, somebody is bound to contradict you. I will take another Budget, one which is forgotten, and that is the Budget of 1914. In the Budget of 1914 there were three new taxes. The total amount of taxation which was raised by the new taxes was £14,000,000. Under this Budget the new taxes come to £20,000,000. There was not one of those taxes which was controversial or controverted. There was 2d. on the Income Tax, the Super-tax limit was reduced from £5,000 to £3,500, there was a certain stiffening of the Death Duties, but there was nothing comparable to what happens under this Budget.
Those were the three taxes, not one of them involving any new principle, not one of them challenged on its merits by hon. Gentlemen opposite, who then sat in Opposition. There were four days' Debate on the Second Reading, although there had been two and a-half, or two and three-quarter, days on the Resolution before that. There was no Closure; it was debated for four days—on what ground? It was debated on the ground of national economy, on the ground that the expenditure was too high, and that the Government ought to undertake the task of cutting down. May I point out that of that £14,000,000, £11,000,000 was given away to local taxation, so that it was not really an addition to the burdens of the country. It was passed on. In those days, when four days were given for Debate, it was a £200,000,000 Budget. Trade was good, and was growing. Today it is an £800,000,000 Budget. Trade is bad, expenditure is rising, and we are given one day for the discussion of that Budget. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, to point out a single precedent under any Government.
This cannot be converted into an attack upon the Government. The only justification for its being allowed at all is that there is a charge against me, that I did not properly exercise the discretion given to me under the Standing Orders. To try to turn it into a Vote of Censure on the Government is quite a perversion of the Standing Orders.
If you insist upon it, I ask you, Sir, since you say it is an attack upon you, whether you can point out a single precedent wherein a Speaker gave the Closure on a Budget with four new taxes, every one of them challenged inside the House of Colmmons and outside the House of Commons— challenged inside the House of Commons by Members who represent a majority of the electorate, and supported by Members representing a minority of the electorate. Is there a single case, Sir—I ask you since you insist upon my putting the question to you—where any Speaker, from the time this House had control of finance, who ruled so as to stifle and closure Debate upon a Motion of this character? This is a dangerous precedent. Hon. Members to-day will flock, I have no doubt, into the Lobby in opposition to this Motion. I ask them to reflect. This was the closuring of a Budget the taxation in which they liked more or less—and the less they liked it the less did they like the Debate to be prolonged upon it. Two or three days ago a Member on the other side of the House, answering an hon. Member here who said that in five years there would be a change, said, "No, in 10." Well, 10 years soon passes away. Make it five or make it 10, there will be other men with other ideas, other Budgets, other expedients for taxation and other proposals very controversial from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and then, if only one day is given to the discussion of those new proposals, hon. Gentlemen here above the Gangway can quote as a precedent what happened in 1925 when they trooped into the Lobby together. [HON. MEMBERS: "Like the Coalition."] This is the new coalition—the new confederacy. I know it is a very small minority of Members of this House who will support this Motion, but they represent 3,000,000 of the electors in this country.
Tory votes.
HON. MEMBERS: What about Old-ham?
I have found it very difficult to keep in order, but if I were to follow all these interruptions, I should be wandering very far from the path of order. I have, in this House, been one of the leaders of great majorities for 17 years, but I am prouder of the fact that once upon a time I was one of seven, trooping into the Lobby amidst the jeers of a triumphant majority. I am prouder to-day of that fact, and it did not take many years before that triumphant majority melted away amidst the derision and scorn of the people of this country. I know majorities must prevail if you are to govern, but minorities must also be heard if liberty is to be preserved, and it is because I think that the liberties of this House have been curtailed and that a fair opportunity has been denied, not to us, but to the House of Commons—we only wanted our share whatever it was— [ Interruption ]. I am not complaining of that, I am only complaining of the fact that the Debate was not continued. I am making no complaint as to the share we got. I say that the Debate ought to have been continued, and I say that hon. and right hon. Members who vote against this Motion to-day will live to regret the fact when this is quoted some years hence on another occasion.
Since you, Sir, have made known your desire, that those whose names are attached to the Motion should speak first, I rise in my place to utter two or three sentences. Let me in the first place say, that I can imagine nothing more distasteful to any Member of the House than the duty which we to-day are performing. But it is especially distasteful to anyone who, like myself, has been associated with you throughout almost the whole of your Parliamentary career. You, Sir, have been an intimate friend of my own, and I hope you will always be so. I trust, therefore, in these circumstances it will not be considered for a single moment that there is anything in the nature of political antagonism in this Motion. In the second place I do it with great regret, because I was the person who had the honour of being closured. I make no complaint of that. Others were just as capable, or more capable, of putting to the House views which ought to be heard here. The complaint which I make, and which has been made with greater ability and discretion than I can command, is that the constitutional privileges of this House were curtailed by the action of two days ago, that our duty here primarily is to guard the finance and the trade and the commerce of this country, bound up as is the well-being of our people with every feature of it. That is the reason why, under the Standing Orders, financial business is exempted from many restrictions placed on other proposals. That is the reason, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) pointed out, why under the Standing Orders the Eleven o'clock Rule, and in days gone by the Twelve o'Clock Rule, is not applied to our financial business. It was, therefore, with the greatest surprise, to say nothing of indignation, that we found that in a Session which is likely to continue for 200 days, only seven ,and a-half hours were to be allowed for the discussion of the whole financial and trading interests of the year taken in one survey. It was on this constitutional ground that I appended my name to this Motion along with my right hon. and hon. Friends, and it is on this ground alone that I give it my support to-day.
I only rise because you, Sir, might not consider it courteous, as my name has appeared on the Order Paper in connection with this Motion, if I did not add a few words to the speeches of my right hon. and hon. Colleagues with whom I am associated in the invidious and unpleasant task of appearing to put forward a Motion hostile to yourself. I have no doubt you will readily accept my assurance that there is nothing whatsoever of a personal character in the Motion we have placed on the Paper. It will not be denied that this is the only form and the only opportunity which is given to Parliamentary minorities in this House to express—I hope in moderate terms—their views on the action that was taken on the second reading of the Finance Bill. I do not wish to traverse the ground which has already been very fully covered. May I say, speaking with a full sense of responsibility, that in view of the grave concern which is felt, not merely in this House but outside the House, not by party people but by men of all classes and by all concerned with the financial condition of this country expressing the views of the most responsible leaders of industry and of labour, that I felt amazed that you accepted at a quarter to 12 in the evening a Motion to closure a Debate which had been proceeding on regular and orderly lines, which embodied within it new pronouncements of vital importance by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister, to which there had been no obstruction or attempted obstruction, and which could have very well continued, I should have thought, for another hour or two for the benefit of this country and of the House.
What is this new idea that the House of Commons cannot sacrifice its convenience for this benefit of discussion? What is this new principle of the House which in former days used to think nothing of sitting until three of four o'clock in the morning? Go back to the days of Disraeli and Gladstone when the Prime Minister often did not rise until one in the morning. Now it has got to adjourn at a certain hour because certain people do not want to stop. This House has always existed for the benefit of the people of this country, and it makes a poor impression on the people outside the House when Members of the House are not prepared to stop here to discuss a matter of such enormous importance. I therefore felt the greatest amazement that a Resolution which ought never to have been put was accepted. I feel that those outside this House must also share in that astonishment at the proceedings of that evening. I do not wish to put it any higher than that, but I would say this: We are the Members of the smallest party in the House. Our position is not an easy one, and we all realise that. We are, perhaps, therefore, all the more called upon and impelled to be the vigilant guardians of minorities. We have to carry out what we consider to be our duty. We shall not be diverted from it by the jeers or the cheers of my hon. Friends above the Gangway. We have had to assume to-day a most invidious and unpleasant task. We have done so with a full sense of our responsibility. We have done so in no captious spirit. We have done so in the confidence that Members of this House and their constituents outside themselves approve in their hearts of the course we have taken.
Having regard to the necessarily restricted terms of the Motion which is on the Paper, I do not propose to say anything to the House, except one word on behalf of every one belonging to the party which I have the honour to lead. We regret very much that this discussion has had to take place. We shall vote against the Motion. We do not feel, after a careful study of the columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT since the beginning of this Parliament, that you have been careless of the rights of minorities, and we feel unabated confidence, Sir, in your discretion.
The right hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the House in support of this Motion have presented their case with great good feeling and Parliamentary skill. I cannot help concluding that the sense of the House is that it is not Mr. Speaker who has been censured so much as the speakers who have attached their names to this Motion. Reduced to matter of fact terms this is a question of proportions, and no argument has been alleged that the party represented below the Gangway have not had their fair proportion of time in this discussion.
That is not the point.
We are on the side of the rights of minorities, and in the 20 or so years that we have been here we have watched the care with which the Chair has preserved those rights whenever those rights have been threatened. We have perhaps more reason than any other group of Members in this House to be watchful of the rights of minorities for we have never been in a majority, and it will not be alleged that hon. Members behind me are uniformly to be re- garded as the slavish worshippers of the Chair. The attitude which we all propose to take to-day on the merits of the case and on the merits of Mr. Speaker's action on the occasion in question is taken without prejudice to the probability of some future occasion giving cause for dissent from the ruling of the Chair or from an action of the Chair in relation to Closure.
It is human to err, and, Mr. Speaker, you are human, but we are not persuaded on the merits of this case that, alone and only, great considerations of public and financial policy dictated the action which has been taken to-day. Certain considerations of party strategy are not unconnected with the resentment that has been manufactured and manifested. I do not think that a single one of the 3,000,000 electors represented by hon. Gentlemen who have addressed the House would have had his sleep in the slightest sense disturbed by the knowledge that we were not permitted to stay throughout the small hours of the morning. There will yet be frequent opportunities for referring to this discussion. I understand that the whole of the week when we resume after Whitsuntide is to be devoted to consideration in detail of the question which was closured. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
I want to read to the House before sitting down the comment of a consistent, if candid, friend of many Members of this House in relation to this question. This paragraph will be found in the centre page of the "Manchester Guardian" of yesterday.
May I ask what relevance these last observations have to the Motion on the Paper?
About as much as the other speeches.
I very respectfully point out to you that the other speakers were called to Order. On this point of Order, I ask whether you will permit a reply to the remarks that have just fallen from the right hon. Gentleman?
In a matter of this kind, directed against myself, I have been, naturally, extremely reluctant to put any restriction on any of the speeches. It is only when they have been flagrantly out of order that I have been compelled to intervene.
Relevant or not, I think I was entitled to bring to the notice of the House the fact that not only the Liberal party, as a party, had had its chance, but each one of the numerous groups of that party. I can quite understand the impatience and resentment of my hon. and gallant Friend, who has just raised this point of Order, that the particular group, the fourth group with which he is associated, is not mentioned in this paragraph.
I want to say on behalf of my hon. Friends and myself that we consider that you, Sir, have behaved with your usual competence and with absolute impartiality, and that the dignity of the high office, which you have so well sustained, has been in no way impaired by any action you have taken, and we shall, if necessary, support you unanimously in the Lobby.
Question put,
"That, in view of the express provisions of Standing Order No. 26 far the protection of the rights of minorities, this House regrets the action of Mr. Speaker on the 25th May, 1925, when, contrary to recent precedents, he granted the Closure at 11.45 p.m. on the first day's Debate on the Motion for the Second Reading of the Finance Bill.
The House divided: Ayes, 27; Noes, 306.
Division No. 121.] AYES. [1.1 p.m. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Scrymgeour, E. Briant, Frank Harney, E. A. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Crawfurd, H. E. Harris, Percy A. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Dunnico, H. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Fenby, T. D. Kenyon, Barnet Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Forrest, W. Livingstone, A. M. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Sir Godfrey Collins and Sir Robert Hutchison.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cope, Major William Henn, Sir Sydney H. Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Couper, J. B. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cove, W. G. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Albery, Irving James Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Ammon, Charles George Crook, C. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Holland, Sir Arthur Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hopkins, J. W. W. Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Curzon, Captain Viscount Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander, F. W. Dalton, Hugh Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover) Dalziel, Sir Davison Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Baker, Walter Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Hume, Sir G. H. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Hurd, Percy A. Banks, Reginald Mitchell Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hurst, Gerald B. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Day, Colonel Harry Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Dean, Arthur Wellesley Jacob, A. E. Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Dixey, A. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Drewe, C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Beckett, John (Gateshead) Eden, Captain Anthony Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Edmondson, Major A. J. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Bennett, A. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kennedy, T. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Betterton, Henry B. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Knox, Sir Alfred Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Fanshawe, Commander G. D Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Fermoy, Lord Lansbury, George Blundell, F. N. Fielden, E. B. Lindley, F. W. Boothby, R. J. G. Ford, P. J. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Forestler-Walker, L. Little, Dr. E. Graham Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Foster, Sir Harry S. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Fraser, Captain Ian Loder, J. de V. Brass, Captain W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lougner, L. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Lowth, T. Briggs, J. Harold Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Briscoe, Richard George Ganzoni, Sir John Lunn, William Brittain, Sir Harry Gates, Percy MacAndrew, Charles Glen Broad, F. A. Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (l. of W.) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gee, Captain R. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Macintyre, Ian Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mackinder, W. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Glyn, Major R. G. C. MacLaren, Andrew Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Goff, Sir Park Macmilian, Captain H. Campbell, E. T. Gosling, Harry McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Cautley, Sir Henry S. Grace, John Macquisten, F. A. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Greene, W. P. Crawford Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Malone, Major P. B. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Margesson, Captain D. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Chilcott, Sir Warden Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Mason. Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Christle, J. A. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Maxton, James Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Gunston, Captain D. W. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Mitchell, Sir W Lane (Streatham) Clarry, Reginald George Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Clayton, G. C. Hardle, George D. Montague, Frederick Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Harrison, G. J. C. Moore Sir Newton J. Cobb Sir Cyril Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Haslam, Henry C. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hayes, John Henry Murchison, C. K. Compton, Joseph Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Connolly, M. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Naylor, T. E. Conway, Sir W. Martin Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Neville, R. J. Cooper, A. Duff Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) Wallhead, Richard C. Nuttall, Ellis Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Oakley, T. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Sitch, Charles H. Warrender, Sir Victor Oman, Sir Charles William C. Skelton, A. N. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Watts, Dr. T. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Welsh, J C. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Westwood, J. Philipson, Mabel Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Pielou, D. P. Smithers, Waldron Wignall, James Pilcher, G. Snell, Harry Williams, David (Swansea, East) Potts, John S. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Spender Clay, Colonel H. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Preston, William Sprot, Sir Alexander Wilson, C. H. (Sherweld, Attercliffe) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Rice, Sir Frederick Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Winby, Colonel L. P. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stephen, Campbell Windsor, Walter Ritson, J. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Strickland, Sir Gerald Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Wise, Sir Fredric Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Styles, Captain H. Walter Wolmer, Viscount Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Womersley, W. J. Rose Frank H. Sutton, J. E. Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Salmon, Major I. Templeton, W. P. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Salter, Dr. Alfred Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Sandeman, A. Stewart Thurtle, E. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Tinker, John Joseph Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Sandon, Lord Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Varley, Frank B. Savery S. S. Vaughan-Morgan, Cot. K. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Viant, S. P. Colonel Gretton and Mr. William Scurr, John Wallace, Captain D. E. Thorne.
Adjournment (Whitsuntide)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Unemployment
I was not aware of the absence, from unavoidable causes, of the Minister of Labour, for I desired to address to him, as I now address to the Parliamentary Secretary, a few questions, on the Motion for Adjournment, connected with the great subject of unemployment. These are days when the subject is recurrent, for the reason that the problem is a continuous and embarrassing one. So far as domestic questions are concerned, this question was the most prominent of the matters discussed by all the parties at the last General Election. In several speeches in that election the Prime Minister attacked the Labour Government, and declared that the unemployment situation was as grave, if not even more grave, than it was 12 months before. The right hon. Gentleman uttered several warnings, and directed our attention to the necessity of looking ahead to deal with this subject.
We must not treat lightly the speeches of the present Prime Minister during the last election. I should, however, like to say to him, and the Government, that the position is much more alarming now after six months' office of the present Administration. Each week seems to make some addition to the figures of the unemployed, and, so far as we know, there is nothing proportionate being taken in hand in these summer months which will prepare us for the autumn and the winter. At that time, so it is believed by the experts, whatever may be the immediate effect of the restoration of the gold standard, that by autumn and winter there will inevitably be further additions to the rank of unemployed. Indeed, we are faced with the tragic fact that unemployment has become accepted as a permanent addition to our social and economic life. 163,000 more persons are unemployed than 12 months ago. I know that a very large number of that addition is due solely to the depression in the coal trade. But at least two-thirds of it applies to occupations wholly unconnected with the coal industry. I hope the House will agree with me when I say that, in view of the social and moral consequences accruing from this continued growth of unemployment, that it would be worth a very big price if we bring those consequences to an end.
One argument often levelled against those of us who sit on these benches as to the cause of unemployment has not existed during this period of continued growth in the numbers, and does not exist now. It was often said that industrial conflicts, trade disputes and strikes—lock-outs, of course, were never mentioned—were one of the root causes of trade depression. This year has been one of remarkable and long-continued industrial peace. We are all glad of that fact. There have been threats of stoppages, but they have been avoided, and perhaps a greater sense of the circumstances, and a sense of responsibility as to the consequences, have helped to maintain this state of industrial peace which we hope will be continued. My point is that industrial conflict is not the cause of any increase in the figures I have quoted. Nor can it be said that high wages are a cause, for it has been admitted by the Minister of Labour that no less than £500,000,000 of wages have been parted with by the wage-earning classes each year since the policy of wage reduction was enforced, beginning with the year 1920.
When the Minister of Labour was to address Members in this House some days ago he was preceded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, not interding to touch the substance of that subject, stated that in the course of the Debate the policy of the Government would be unfolded by the Minister of Labour. I ask the attention of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry to that statement. The Minister of Labour was to unfold the policy of the Government on the present Labour position. I allege that he never touched the fringe of that policy, that he said nothing by way of outlining any further steps or plans which may be in the mind of the Government. In the most casual way he merely mentioned unemployment grants, afforestation, export credits, trade facilities and, as he added, "all the rest." Merely mentioned them. I refer again to trade facilities to-day because they provide one of the most hopeful and helpful lines that can be pursued with a view to stimulating trade. We have had a return giving us information to the end of March, I think, and it will be helpful for us to hear what further use has been made of the trade facilities scheme during April and May. Having, as I say, just referred to these several measures of help, the Minister of Labour said they did no more than touch the fringe of the unemployment problem. I want to ask whether the Government are content with that, and, if they are not content with touching the fringe of the subject, what further plans they have for helping unemployment.
When the Minister of Labour was definitely asked his remedy for the trouble, he calmly replied, "My remedy is a simple thing. It is that industrialists, masters and men, should get together." That, clearly, is an abandonment of all the functions of Government and all the responsibilities of the Ministry of Labour. It is no cure to say, "Let the aggrieved parties come together; industrialists, masters and men, should confer." If that could afford a solution of the problem, there would be little further need for the Ministry of Labour. These different interests are frequently together, constantly in conference; but that fact does not lessen the obligations of the Government, or diminish their responsibility in relation to the problem. The Minister of Labour referred, also, to some plans they had in mind for the development of electricity. I thought his terms under this head rather apologetic. He said, "You cannot get schemes without many months and even, indeed, many years of elaboration. However hard you may push these schemes, it is absolutely impossible to get them to the point of fruition as quickly as anyone in this House would wish." I recall the time when my right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) was in the responsible position of Minister of Labour. Before he had been in office half the time of the present Minister—
Six weeks.
And without any of the powers or opportunities possessed by the present Government in the form of a great majority and in the shape, say, of continuous Cabinet Committee meetings —though without any of these forms of assistance my right hon. Friend was asked why he had not solved this problem. And when, using perhaps less ornate terms than would the present occupant of that office, and speaking in a more colloquial form, my right hon. Friend said he could not produce schemes as a conjurer could produce rabbits out of a hat, his candid statement became a subject for laughter almost for the remainder of the Session. What about the rabbits of the present occupant of that office? He, as I say, gives his explanation in more elegant terms, but none the less he has had to confess his helplessness, in spite of the fact that he has had twice the time that my right hon. Friend had, and in spite of the fact that he has had opportunities, and now has opportunities, which his predecessor had not.
I again draw the attention of the Government to the fact that in the King's Speech at least some pretence was made of the power of Government to deal with this subject, and the hopes that Speech raised are being cruelly dashed by the utter failure of the Government to make good the promises of that Speech. I quoted them on the last occasion when I addressed the House on this theme, and will not give the quotations in terms again. We have reached the stage where we should either attempt some solution of the problem, or frankly declare as a Government that there is nothing further which the Government can do. The failure to carry out these promises has become nothing less than scandalous, and that failure, if continued, may, indeed, become ludicrous. There ought not any longer to be any mystery about the intentions of the Government on questions which involve such terrible suffering in the case of hundreds of thousands of the poorer people of the community. We have sometimes had to suffer the jibes of our opponents for painting our pictures in the terms of extremes of wealth and extremes of poverty. Let the Government note this remarkable fact, as attested during the repeated Debates on finance in this House, that there are only two classes in a state of continuous growth in this country, the Super-tax payers and the unemployed. They constitute a twin menace to the safety of the State, and I fear we are approaching a stage where their growth will provoke protests which cannot be ignored.
The right hon. Gentleman says the number of Super-tax payers is increasing. Is it not true to say that the reason they are increasing is because the basis upon which they are assessed is continually being reduced? It started with the figure of £5,000, was reduced to £3,000, and then to £2,500, and now the figure is £2,000. If those figures are taken into consideration I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that though unemployment is increasing the amount accruing from Super-tax payers is decreasing.
That is part of the reason, but it is by no means the whole of the reason, one part of the reason being that there is an automatic growth in the wealth of certain persons in the community, bringing them within the Super-tax paying class. I would like to ask whether a representative of the War Office could give us a little information about the position at Woolwich? A deputation of men from Woolwich Arsenal visited me in the House only two nights ago to inform me that in recent weeks there had been a recurrence of very serious dismissals of men, and that more than 100, very many of them approaching 60 years of age, have been turned away. If hon. Members could have heard the terms in which that deputation stated their position they would not have harboured any of that feeling, which has found expression elsewhere, that there are men who delight in being dismissed and being kept out of a job, for I can recall nothing more disconsolate and harassing than the picture which those men painted of the hopelessness of men approaching 60 years of age who are turned away by the Government in a district where there is no prospect whatever of alternative employment. That is making a direct and very serious addition to the ranks of the unemployed, and on that point we would like to have some more consoling information.
Finally, I would like to put on record our repudiation of the words by which the Chancellor of the Exchequer a few days ago sought to justify his recent allusion to the unemployed, who were alleged to be finding opportunities for receiving unemployment benefit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer declared that he could give evidence to justify his charge under that reference to developing a habit of qualifying for unemployment benefit. He could give evidence! I say that no such charge is justified by the Chancellor of the Exchequer merely saying that he can prove it. If he has evidence, let it be adduced. We are as anxious as he can be, or as members of the Government can be, to get at the facts on a question of this kind. The general body of unemployed workers ought not to be left under the stigma that has been cast upon them, and I think evidence is essential if any hint of the charge is to be maintained. I call as witness in repudiation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present Minister of Labour himself, for in the course of a speech during that same debate the present Minister of Labour said there was a certain proportion, quite a very small number, who really try to get something for nothing if they get the chance. Quite a very small number! So after all it is no more than some few of the working classes trying to get a little for nothing, a line of action not unknown amongst other classes. I regret the absence of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, as I thought it better at this stage, before we adjourn, to address some of these points to him in order that we might extract by repeated demands some sort of adumbration of policy such as that promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during our late debate.
We who are new Members of this House have been looking forward, after the coming in of so powerful a Government, to the production of something like a national policy dealing with this devastating problem of unemployment. We were the more fortified in that attitude of mind because we remembered the solemn pledges given at the last Election and because we knew that in this new Conservative party there were a large number of young men about to pump new life-blood into the policy of the party. Consequently, we have been expecting since the last General Election that some outbreak in regard to a general national policy would characterise the present Government. It is with profound regret that I have to confess that practically nothing has been done in the way of the development of the new policy to deal with the most devastating problem which confronts this country to-day. The Minister of Labour has done a number of things, but I do not think that he would contend that any one of them is likely to diminish the actual number of unemployed in this country.
The right hon. Gentleman issued a circular in February dealing with unemployment benefits which restricts the payment with regard to contributions, and the practical effect of that is to take the many thousands of people out of the receipt of unemployment benefit. I think the right hon. Gentleman would not claim for that action that he has helped the actual problem of unemployment in any shape or form. Some weeks later, in March of this year, the right hon. Gentleman issued another circular which specially affects men and women who leave these shores in search of work in other lands. If those people come back here again, after having sought in vain to find employment abroad, they are subject to a restriction which prevents them for three months claiming insurance benefit even if they were receiving it prior to going to other parts of the world in search of work. While such measures as these may reduce the actual numbers of those in receipt of unemployment benefit, such a policy cannot pretend to represent any kind of statemanship which is likely to lead to a solution of this problem. We have learned with amazement that the Minister of Labour is going to use his office to press down the actual number of persons receiving unemployment benefit, and he is going to do this in conjunction with the new scheme for pensions for widows and old age pensions. It looks as though we are going to have a big push in order to get back to a condition of normality in order that at as early a moment as possible the Government will be able to say that the numbers on the list of unemployment are down to 800,000.
This kind of method of dealing with this five year old problem will not, I think, commend itself to the Members of any party in this House. We want to see this problem dealt with in a new way that will really meet the actual necessities of the case. We have at the present time more than 1,000,000 men and women out of employment. These are reservoirs of the greatest productive power which the nation has. We want to see a policy adopted which is going to tackle this biggest source of our national waste. Instead of that policy being adopted we see the figures of unemployment increasing. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) has quoted the figures, and it is perfectly clear that the unemployed exist in greater numbers now than was the case a year ago In coal mining, and in the iron, steel, shipping and docking industries there has been a substantial increase of unemployment during the course of the last five months. This is not simply a problem in regard to which we have to find employment for a certain given number of men and women whose number never increases, but we have also to face the fact that there are between 80,000 and 100,000—some authorities place the figure at 140,000—new boys and girls coming into industry, seeking wage earning occupations every year, and the problem looks as though it will get still worse.
On these benches we were taunted and twitted during the lifetime of the Labour Government because we had no great remedy for sweeping away unemployment last year. Hon. Members are aware that we had not a majority of 400 in this House to carry out any great national scheme for the reform of this very wasteful industrial system. They also know that in respect of our main propositions we not only could not command the support of the majority of the Members of this House, but we have not yet succeeded in persuading public opinion to go along the way which we think would help to solve unemployment. None of these excuses can be made by the present Government, because not only have they an overwhelming majority, but they are the people responsible for the existing industrial system. They speak and act on behalf of the classes representing capital and the owners of land throughout the country, and therefore they have a responsibility much greater than ours.
We have a moral justification to be the critics of the present system, and it is as critics at the present time that our service to the nation can best be carried out. It is the business of the Government to deal with the present system as a going concern. They have employers, financiers, bankers and owners of land to work with them, and, therefore, the nation has a moral right to expect from this Government some definite policy for dealing with a system which protects the interest of capitalists, and those who have the control of the land. I think for these reasons we have a right to expect more than the efforts of the Labour Government were able to do in the, course of a few brief months. We have tried to devise machinery to deal with things as they are. Last week the Labour party, after a great deal of thought, presented a Bill for the prevention of unemployment, which made definite suggestions to secure more efficient Government machinery to deal with the problem, but that Bill was rejected by the Government in a light-hearted and frivolous way.
I should like to ask the Minister of Labour what we may expect at an early date in the way of a serious attempt to deal with this problem. I speak as one who has spent his life mostly amongst members of the wage-earning population. I am thinking not simply in terms of economic waste, but also in terms of intellectual and moral waste in which unemployment involves the nation. There are men and women who have not the barest necessities of life, and who are haunted week in and week out, month in and month out, and year in and year out by the fact that they cannot get the barest elements of life. These men and women are not only going to pieces in regard to their physical life, but their whole home life and moral life is being devastated. We protest that under these circumstances the present Government, after being so many months in office and in power, is continuing the same laissez faire attitude, throwing the responsibility back upon private enterprise, and we have no such thing as a real national policy being inaugurated by the Government to deal with these grave problems.
Why cannot the Government tackle the land question? Instead of giving out so much unemployment relief would it not be much better to open up the land for cultivation, even if it meant authorising the local authorities to take over land which is at present not being used, for the purpose of experimenting and tackling this great problem of unemployment? We want productive work actually to be found for these people, and if the Government really made up its mind in the same way it did during the prosecution of the War, and regarded this as a social disease as fundamental to the State as the menace of a foreign foe, I am certain that this problem would be tackled in a way that would not only relieve unemployment, but would make for the development and happiness of the masses of men and women who have a primary claim upon the consideration of any Government which is in power.
Why cannot the Government do something to promote efficiency in our existing system of industry? We have as a nation and as a Government done an enormous amount since 1919 to improve the efforts of our greatest competitor, the German industrial organisations. Directly and indirectly we have tried to make their arrangements more efficient for the purpose of business. We have deliberately by our decision in this House taken away from Germany their Army, their Navy, and their Air Force; we have deliberately taken away their colonies, and we have deliberately put upon them economic burdens which has compelled the cleverest and most efficient industrialists to concentrate on this problem of how to produce a more efficient industrial civilisation.
We have done everything we could to build up German industrial civilisation since 1919. We have adopted a policy in the past which has encouraged the policy of inflation in Germany which has rid Germany of her national debt. Germany would never have drifted into a policy of inflation had we adopted a different attitude. We have compelled the German civilisation to concentrate on the more inventive and resourceful side of industry and civilisation. Surely we ought to be able to do something to promote the efficiency of our own industrial civilisation. Why cannot the Minister of Labour do something to inaugurate a policy of industrial education? Why are we allowing 140,000 boys and girls to come into our industrial system at 14 years of age? If we are confessing, as the great industrial captains have been doing during the last five months, that we cannot reduce this number of unemployed, if it be true that we are going to have 1,000,000 out of work for the next four, five or 10 years, is it not time we as a nation said, "We will keep our children out of industry"? We are realising that we are losing in the competitive race because we have not good enough leaders in our industries. These children are going to be among the leaders in our industries. Let us have an educational policy between the ages of 14 and 16, and at one stroke we shall reduce very considerably the total number of unemployed in industry on the one hand, while on the other hand we shall be laying the foundations of a saner educational policy for the people in our country.
Speaking as a new Member, it is to me a matter of the very greatest regret that, at the end of so many months in the lifetime of this Government, we have to confess to-day that there are more men and women out of work now than there were when the General Election took place, and that there is nothing in sight apart from measures that merely aim at reducing numbers but actually accentuate the social problem of unemployment. I want to protest on be half of this great body of British citizens who are out of work, and to say that we hope in the course of the next two or three years we are not going to be content with Government inaction, but that this policy of social reform is going to be concentrated upon the problem of unemployment until we have found a national solution for it. We want a back-to-the-land scheme if that will solve it; we want a national scheme for electricity if that will solve it; we want to keep children out of industry between the- ages of 14 and 16; we want a more efficient system of industrial leadership: we want a great deal more seriousness in the way of getting down to hard brass tacks in order that we may realise that we have to face a tremendous competition with civilisations that Have in many ways become more efficient than our own. I protest against the laissez-faire policy of the Government, and I appeal to the House to take matters more seriously, not on economic grounds only, but on grounds of personality. These unemployed people are men and women like ourselves. They come into this race of life just in the same way as we do, and we have no business to think of them merely as numbers. They have the same right to live as we have. I protest against this laissez-faire policy, and ask that something may be done to give us a real national policy for tackling what is the biggest social disease with which we are confronted in this generation.
I think the Labour party are to be congratulated on again raising the question of unemployment, because I feel that the more this matter is discussed the better. I think I am voicing the view of some back benchers, and, no doubt, of many people outside, when I say we are not satisfied with the way in which the leaders of any political party are tackling this problem. We feel that the unemployment problem is still being made to a large extent the sport of party politics. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said in his speech that the time has now come to attempt some solution or to declare frankly that nothing can be done; and the hon. Member who followed him said that we have to meet the actual facts, that we have really got to tackle the problem of our 1,000,000 unemployed and of the 140,000 new persons coming into industry each year. It is very easy to criticise, and it is very easy to disparage the efforts which have been made by the Government, whatever that Government may be. I am going to try the much more difficult role of putting forward some constructive ideas, which, personally, I firmly believe would be of great benefit if they could be carried into operation. I would say at the outset that they could not be brought into operation unless the leaders of each political party were to carry out the promise they have made so often in this House, that they will co-operate and work together in order to solve this problem.
First of all, I should like, if the House will bear with me, to analyse some of the conditions which any proposal must meet, because so often, in these discussions, various suggestions are made which to my mind leave out of consideration the central fact that the solution has to come from outside this country rather than from inside it. As we are a nation supported almost entirely by our overseas trade, and, as our overseas trade is dependent upon foreign nations over whom we have neither political nor economic control, it is quite obvious that those conditions outside this country are more important than conditions inside this country. Let me give an example. Since the War it has often been asked, "Why do you not deal with the unemployment problem in the same way as you dealt with the war problem? " The conditions, however, are very different. During the War the Government were able to give orders to factories, and keep those factories full. The results of the operations of the factories were fired away, and so forth. Now we are in this position, that the condition precedent is to obtain our orders, and those orders have to be obtained outside this country. Therefore, we have to consider the whole problem on a very much broader basis than hither- to, and we have to realise that it must be dealt with in a really drastic manner. During the War we acted drastically in throwing over hidebound conventions, and we have now, I believe, to throw over hidebound conventions in carrying on war against unemployment.
There are certain fundamental changes which are operating in this country, some caused by or resulting from the War, and some caused by the development of science. May I take these in their order? First of all, there is the re-orientation of trading power imposed upon this country by the fact that the raw materials which we have in this country have not to-day the same relative value that they had when we were building up our great Empire. Oil is replacing coal. A very large proportion of our Mercantile Marine, which used to operate on coal, is now operating on oil, and, while I do not say that no new vessels are being built to burn coal, yet, if you study the curves of new construction, and realise how very, very rapidly the whole new construction of vessels in this country to-day is turning entirely in the direction of Diesel-engined or other oil-powered vessels, you will realise that the present state of the coal trade is only a slight indication of what is going to come in another few years. I do not believe, myself, that the depression in the coal trade to-day is temporary; I think the trade is probably better to-day than it is likely to be in the years to come.
Another factor which has come into consideration is that many of our new manufactories are depending upon electrical power. For instance, you have the production of rustless steel, which depends upon the production of low-carbon ferro-chrome, and this carbon-free ferro-chrome is produced by electrical power. In this country we have not any water power on the same lines as in the Dominions, in America, and in other countries, and it is an actual fact that, with hydro-electric power, electricity can be produced more cheaply than by any form of coal power. The natural result of that is that many articles manufactured on the basis of electric power are leaving this country in order to go to Niagara Falls, or some place of that kind where this cheaper power can be obtained. That is another factor which has to be faced, and it is one that is going to get worse and worse as the years pass. In the North of Italy, for instance, there has been a great revival in industrial conditions because they have developed their hydro-electric power, and they are now ceasing to buy a great deal of coal that they previously bought in this country. That is another fact that has to be faced, and it, again, is going to get worse and worse each year.
These are the fundamental conditions which this country has to face. Let me now pass to another factor which may be more open to controversy, because, unfortunately, it has been the sport of party politics, namely, the question of tariffs and mass production. I listened very carefully to the Debates on the McKenna Duties last year and this year, though, unfortunately, I was unable to catch Mr. Speaker's eye, and did not make the point that I wished to make. I suggest, however, to my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches, that the question of tariffs should be considered quite apart from the political side, and purely as applying to each individual industry. I see that an hon. Member disagrees with me, but I would ask him to wait while I put this point. If you take an engineering industry, which allows you to develop a form of mass production, the amount of wages you pay is practically immaterial if your mass production is on a basis of high output, because you can so organise your machines that the output per machine is so high that the cost of labour is almost immaterial in the cost of production. That is why Mr. Ford can pay his men 25s. or 30s. a day.
2.0 P.M.
One of the main reasons why there has been a fight in this country over tariffs is that many persons have considered that tariffs in this country would put up the cost of living, which would entail a higher wage charge, and that this higher wage charge would automatically increase the cost of manufacturing goods. I would venture to suggest that in this country, in many branches of industry, that is a complete fallacy, and 'for this reason, that, unless you can get the basis of production on such a scale that you can introduce mass production methods, you can never get cheap production, because you cannot lay out your factories on a basis which will enable you to avail yourself of modern scientific arrangements. The value of a tariff is that it does provide a closed market while you are building up and getting into that position. Supposing that you had an output of 500 articles a year, and were paying your labour 5s. a day, you could not produce that article at the same cost as if you produced 50,000 of those articles a year and paid your men £2 a day. For that reason I think hon. Members opposite should very seriously consider this question. After all, they have just as good avenues of information as we have in regard to industrial conditions, and they should very seriously consider whether they could not change the policy of their party in regard to the application of tariffs to the actual industries in which mass production can obtain. Once you have been able to get on a mass production basis and get the costs down, you can go abroad and obtain your market abroad. Recently I was in Rangoon, Bombay, Calcutta and other places and what did I find?
Surely, other countries can do the same thing?
Yes, because they all have tariffs.
What is the advantage?
If we do not do it in this way, then, instead of being able to compete on even terms with foreign countries, we shall be crushed out of one market after another. For instance, with the favourable position we have in India, one would have thought that British motor cars would have been sold in Calcutta, Bombay and Rangoon; but they are not—they are practically all American.
They can make them themselves.
No, I venture to disagree with the hon. Member. For that reason I suggest that hon. Members should consider that point very seriously. Those are the two factors which I have put before the House from the point of view of changes introduced by the development of science. Those conditions, unless we deal with them, are going to get worse and worse each year in each industry unless it can be turned into a mass production industry. The next matter, which is also very important, is the inflation policy of countries like Germany, Italy and France. I do not think it is often realised that we have two charges in this country. In the first place, between 1917 and 1918 the money interests in this country lent £2,000,000,000 to the nation when the purchasing power of the £ was about 6s. 8d. We are now going back on to a gold standard, and that money will have to be repaid when the purchasing power of the £ has become very different. In that, therefore, we have a transference of services rendered by the industrial community to the money interests, by the difference in purchasing power between what it was at the time when that money was lent and when it is paid off.
That, however, is not nearly so important as the fact that the whole rentier class in Germany, France and Italy has practically been wiped out by this policy of inflation, and not only that, but the debenture charges on their industrial companies have also been wiped out. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) raised this point with the Minister of Labour in the last Debate, and in my opinion the Minister of Labour gave no real answer, but merely gave an answer that dealt with temporary difficulties in regard to bank loans during the transition stage between increasing inflation and stability. But the effect of inflation was temporary—it has passed away to a large extent in Germany, and is passing rapidly in Italy and France. The fact, however, remains that those countries have a very much less burden on their industry for the upkeep of the rentier class. That means that more people in those countries have to work than have to work in this country, because there are more people in this country than abroad who can live on investments. That means that the competition in those countries is considerably higher, and the result is that you have a more intense effort with which to compete. Accordingly, for this monetary reason, apart altogether from any questions of scientific re-orientation, we are bound to suffer a very much greater competition from those countries. That is a fundamental factor brought about by the War, and it is one of the reasons why I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on increasing the Death Duties in this country.
There is a fourth factor, also caused by the War, namely, the erection of factories in other countries, to which reference was also made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. Many countries, owing to the fact that they could not get supplies during the War, protected virgin industries, and assisted and nurtured them until now they are producing. That has gone on, not only in Europe but in Japan, India, South America and elsewhere, with the result that it has not a temporary but a permanent effect upon our industry, and, therefore, has to be faced. These, to my mind, are the fundamental conditions which are operating in this country, and no scheme or proposal that is going to deal with unemployment will be of any real value unless it aligns itself to these fundamental conditions. To my mind they are very depressing conditions. In the analysis I have given I see very little hope. Let us, however, turn to the other side of the picture, where, I believe, not only that there is hope, but that we can reconstruct on a basis which will make us even more prosperous than we were before.
If we turn to our Empire as a whole, we find three facts. We find that we have four times the area of the United States, that we have four times the population, and that we have four times the amount of raw materials. Therefore, we have under our own political and economic control, or in friendly relation to our own political and economic ideas, a vast area of the earth's surface, which would reproduce for us those conditions which have made America the very great industrial nation that she is to-day. If you examine the statistics of the last few years, you will find another hopeful factor, and that is that since 1913 the increase of trade between this country and the Dominions has been greater in extent, and considerably greater in proportion, than the increase in trade between ourselves and foreign countries. The Dominion trade from 1913 to 1923 shows an increase of £86,000,000, and the foreign trade of only £71,000,000.
The line of advance, therefore, would appear to be in that direction, but there are many difficult factors to contend with. Firstly, we know, as the late Secretary of State for the Colonies said the other day, that we have 50,000 persons waiting to emigrate, without any place for them to go to. But we know that when they get out to those places each person who goes is worth £12 per year in trade to this country. But there are rather difficult conditions in the way that emigration itself is going down. In 1913 the total emigration to the British Empire was 285,000 and in 1924 132,000. That is to say, there is a diminution as compared with pre-War conditions. Furthermore we have always to remember the fact put forward from those benches that the population is increasing at the rate of 300,000 a year and 140,000 new persons a year want employment in industry.
Now I come to what I would suggest as constructive proposals. They cannot be introduced unless hon. Members opposite are honest in their contention that they are not hidebound and that they are willing to do what they can to solve this problem. I believe there is a great opportunity for the Leader of the Opposition to go down to history as a statesman and not as a politician. It is obvious from what I have said that our main function is to create markets within our Empire. At present our Dominions cannot take our emigrants because they cannot provide the work and their development and consequent call for more labour is handicapped because they have not the markets for their produce. In the 1923 Election the present Prime Minister went to the country with what I might term a half-and-half policy. He went with a policy of protecting our industries, but the Conservative party for a long time has run away from the real factor, which is to deal with this Dominion proposition. I believe the matter could be dealt with and put right without affecting the pledges which have already been given. If you analyse the duties which are now paid on food taxes —on tea and sugar—you will find they yielded a total revenue in 1924 of £34,000,000 a year. In so far as the Tea Duty is concerned it was £10,000,000 in 1924, but that is of no real benefit to our trade or to our Empire in any Preference because the British Empire produces the greater part of the tea that is grown and has the market and can compete without assistance. The amount of duty that we have on sugar is very much more than is necessary for a deflecting tax. I suggest that if before the next Budget the Leader of the Opposition has the support of his party behind him to confer with our leaders and agree to the removal of the Tea and Sugar Duties, with the exception of 20 per cent. of the existing duties on sugar, and transfer that to wheat, meat, butter and eggs, there would be no more money coming from the public on food, and if you examine the figures you will find some very striking results. I have had them worked out. It would allow us to put a 30 per cent. duty on all those articles from foreign sources and a 10 per cent. duty upon all articles from the Dominions coming to this country, with a total revenue from those food taxes of over £45,000,000. But with the pledges now in existence that could only be done to the extent of two-thirds because we must not increase the amount beyond £34,000,000 if we keep those pledges without another election.
But that would do two things. It would give what is wanted, a development and a stimulation of our agricultural work in this country, and it would create an enormous boom in the development of the Dominions, and that is what we want. First of all that boom must entail manufacture in this country for the lay out of those countries—for their railways, their rolling stock and everything of that kind. Secondly, it must give a call for labour in those Dominions, because if those new countries are to be developed it must entail upon them a great demand for labour, which is what we want in this country, because we have here 50,000 persons waiting to emigrate to those countries. If I might give the figures of the imports, hon. Members will see how comparatively simple a change of that character would be. We import to-day £25,000,000 of wheat from the Dominions and £28,000,000 from foreign countries. We could very nearly double our production of imports from the Dominions. A 30 per cent. duty on foreign wheat would give us a revenue of £9,500,000. We get £23,000,000 of meat from the Dominions and £75,000,000 from foreign countries. That would take longer to build up if you have a smaller duty than 30 per cent. to start with; it will allow the deflection to take place gradually. We get £19,000,000 of butter from the Dominions and £25,000,000 from foreign countries. The majority of that could come from the Dominions. We import £2,500,000 eggs from the Dominions and £13,000,000 from foreign countries.
If hon. Members agree with the analysis of the fundamental position that I gave in the first part of my speech, if they agree that our industries and our conditions are going to get worse and worse and that this condition of 1,250,000 unemployed is not a matter which will right itself by no one doing anything and that it is a matter which can only be righted by realising what the fundamental conditions are and throwing overboard all preconceived ideas, as we did in the War, setting up if you like an independent and impartial business Committee to investigate matters, so as to take actual accountancy out of the House of Commons, where the figures are always distorted, then I believe we should be able to lay the foundation of a development upon lines which would be structurally correct. But so long as hon. Members opposite are not prepared to take a certain amount of courage and support a policy of that kind, I believe it is impossible to introduce it into the country because it is the easiest question to distort on the public platform. The public as a whole are not versed in economics. To go into a matter of this kind in detail requires a great deal of time and a great deal of work. The public as a whole do not give that consideration to political problems during a General Election. So long as a political party is ready to prostitute itself against the major interests of the country and the Empire, purely for political purposes and political advantage, I do not believe we shall be able to rebuild this country on the ruins of our former industrial prosperity. But I believe, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. E. Mac-Donald) was to lead his party in consultation and co-operation with the Prime Minister, it would be the finest work any man could ever do. I appeal, therefore, to hon. Members opposite, if they are really truthful in what they say, that they will do anything that is really practical to solve this unemployment problem, if they are prepared to give up what I willingly admit is a political advantage for political purposes, I believe not only will they attract many more persons to the Labour party, but those who now sit on those benches will be looked upon in history as greater men than mere politicians.
I am inclined to agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is too much party feeling and party advantage introduced into this question of unemployment. I feel that we have no right to go away on a holiday knowing that so many of our people are being cheated out of their full right to live, and if anything can be done, I associate myself with the plea he has made to get the best minds of all parties and prove whether or not some sort of solution to this country can be found. I do not think it can be found within the existing system. It may be my misfortune in believing that, but I am prepared to be convinced, and I am prepared to give this assurance that if any arguments can be advanced on reasonable grounds the men and women occupying these benches will be quite prepared to accept them as a solution, because it is not entirely upon party politics that we take the stand we do. We claim it as a human right that people should have that privilege to live as God meant they should. It is our greatest problem to-day, and I feel sometimes that this problem of unemployment might be the test as to whether the country is going to continue to exist as it has done or not. That being so, it is up to this House to lay aside all these little differences and to try to find a solution. We hold certain views sincerely on these benches, and hon. Members opposite hold their particular views sincerely. But I feel that to-day there is a new consciousness being born in the mind of everyone. It is growly slowly, but no one can go through the country, associating with all kinds of people, without finding that there is a new human consciousness being nurtured, which goes to prove that they are beginning to look at this problem with entirely different eyes. One cannot listen, for instance, to the now famous speech which the Prime Minister delivered a few days ago, when he made his appeal to both sides in industry, without feeling that there was some sincerity behind it. Why cannot we then try to harness that new consciousness by the suggestion which has been made, by getting together the best minds with a view to trying to find out some alleviation, if not solution, of the problem.
We cannot go on with things as they are to-day or we shall suffer, and we are suffering at the moment because if you look at the unemployed problem and find 1,250,000 of our people are idle, and have been idle for a considerable time and may be, so far as we can see, idle for a very long time, yet with no right to live, because that is what it amounts to, it is a very serious thing for any body of men and women who set themselves up to make the laws of the country. Our aims may be all right, but to prove whether our aims and methods are correct or not some solution must be found, and it is not for one party alone to seek to find it. I want to give hon. Members the credit for that because we believe that ourselves. This country has been great in the past. We on these benches give second place to none in our love for the country, and we believe it has a greater destiny in front of it if we find a solution for the difficulties in which we are placed. This is one of the points I would put to hon. Members opposite. I am not an economist nor a politician, and I do not suppose I ever shall be, but is it not a strange thing that to-day, in this 20th Century of enlightenment, man, the highest manifestation of life, who has performed miracles in his evolution, should be in the position he is in to-day—man, who has in the centuries come through ignorance and degradation to tremendous and miraculous things. He has cleared the forests. He has drained the swamps, he has tilled the land, and made it produce as it never produced before. He has built railways, made tunnels and sunk shafts. He has made roads and canals. He has constructed great ocean liners. He has harnessed the winds and the tides in the service of his kind. He can fling his thoughts across a continent. He can speak across an ocean. Does anyone think that man, who has done all these miraculous things, and is going on to greater achievements, will stand helpless in the face of this problem, with mountains of wealth round him, and remain starving in the centre? If Governments do not solve it it will be solved in spite of them.
There ought to be a serious attempt made, whether on capitalist or Socialist lines I do not care, but I believe it can only be done on Socialist lines. There is surely a case for trying to find how far these methods can be got to work together with a view at least to an alleviation of the problem. The full capacity of the nation is not being harnessed. Hon. Members opposite say we are not producing as we should, and so long as we have 1,250,000 idle this nation is not producing to its fullest capacity. The resources of the country have not been developed. The harnessing of the people1 to the resources of the country would give you greater production. We differ when statements are made that our production as individuals is not as high as it ought to be. We feel that the production of wealth can be greatly augmented, but we cannot get that higher production unless we are prepared to get the energy, the brains and the brawn of the people put into production. That is our problem. The development of markets abroad, the continual evolution of machinery as applied to production, all tend to displace men. All these things we have heard again and again. It gets us no further. I want to make this appeal, not only to the Government but to everyone concerned, that this problem is so vast that it may determine whether or not this country will go on in the way it has done in the past, and I think we should get together to ascertain whether or not this thing can be done.
Our administration of the unemployed problem is wasted, because we might be able to relieve the burden very considerably even under existing conditions. It has been pointed out that we could lessen the number if we took the younger people and kept them at school longer and prepared them for industry, and in that way developed the coming assets of the nation. We can, by lowering the age at the other end and by a more generous method of treating the elderly people, not only be generous to them, but, at the same time, just to the young. That would relieve the position for the people in the centre. The married man with a family is the biggest drain on the unemployment problem. He takes the most benefit out of it. Because he is a married man and has children, he gets the most out of it. If we could concentrate upon training the young to be more generous to the old, we could very considerably lessen the number of unemployed people in this country at the present time. That is an immediate thing that could be done. I confess that it is not easy to seek to apply these ideas. There are difficulties in the way. But if there is a will to get over the difficulties, they can be got over. We ought not to go away for the holidays without feeling that we have done something, at least, to try to lessen the burdens and to ease the suffering that we know is going on amongst the people of this country.
Those of us whose privilege it was to listen to the maiden speech of the hon. Member who has just spoken, and who have also listened to the speech which he has just delivered, cannot but regret that his contributions in this House are not more frequent.
I am glad that, again, this question of unemployment should be discussed on the Adjournment. I do not suppose there is any subject that is so much in the minds of hon. Members as the question of unemployment, and there is no Department whose administration is subject to more scrutiny, examination and criticism than that of the Ministry of Labour. That is as it ought to be, because it reflects not only the anxiety that is in the minds of hon. Members with regard to this question, but also the heart-searching which is going on throughout the whole country in the desire to find a solution.
The few observations I have to make are suggested by a sentence in a speech made by an hon. Member opposite, in which he said that the time had come when entirely new methods must be adopted if we hope to solve this problem. I agree with the hon. Member, but not in the sense in which he meant those words. He pleaded with the Government to do something more. I do not suppose there ever was a time in the history of industry when it was subjected to more Government interference than during the past five years. Alongside of that there is the disturbing fact of one and a quarter millions of people unemployed. The hon. Member who spoke last referred to the capitalist system which prevails in this country. He attributes to that system all the troubles with which we are struggling. There is no good in the system— it is wholly bad. We on this side are of the opinion that while great improvements in the system are long due, it is nevertheless this system to which the country won such industrial prosperity as it has hitherto enjoyed.
A nation with the same traditions as our own and at the present working under a similar system, namely, the United States, enjoys a great industrial prosperity. It is a capitalist system, but the difference between the state of things in this country and in the United States is due in part, at any rate, to Government interference and impossible restrictions that are placed by succeeding Governments and by trade unions upon the industrial life of this nation. Industry here is a giant in chains. Hon. Members have seen a great liner proceeding slowly down the river to the tail of the bank; it is equipped with powerful engines, chart and compass, and has on board the best seamen in the world, but that equipment cannot be brought into play because of the restricted conditions under which it passes down the river. It is compelled to go dead slow with a tug boat ahead and one astern. It seems to me for the past five years that has been very much the position of the industry in this country. It never has had a chance to bring its engines into play or scope given to that enterprise, skill and ability which have brought so much prosperity to this country.
I was interested to see in the newspapers this morning the suggestion of a coal master who said that if only the coal masters and the miners were allowed to come together in each mine and were allowed to consider together the whole circumstances of the case, half the mines in our country would again be working. He attributed the inability of the working of those mines to the impossible conditions under which employers and employed alike had to carry on their work.
I sometimes think that if an area such as that in which the constituency which I have the honour to represent is, were regarded as a kind of war zone, employers and employed together, engaged in combating the trade depression, adversity and distress, no interference allowed from the outside, I feel sure that they would work out their own salvation. Many industries there have grown up around the present employers; they have built up the industry, they could now save the industry, given a fair chance, providing employment for the thousands who at present are without work.
I think it is along that line that the salvation of the industries of this country at the present time is to be found. If there is one disadvantage in these recurring Debates upon employment it is that they are simply diverting the attention of the country from where the real solution of this problem is to be found and attracting it to the House of Commons where there is so little hope of finding a way out. It is only as we make it more clear that the solution has to come by an agreement between employers and employed themselves. It is along that line that we are likely to have, if not a solution, at any rate a very considerable amelioration of the present industrial conditions.
The speeches which we have heard this afternoon have been of a very peaceful nature. They have all suggested that we should at this time, when there is no Division lying immediately before us, consider the question of unemployment from a somewhat different standpoint. I want to say something on those lines, and I hope that I shall not say anything offensive to hon. Members above the Gangway on this side, with whom I sometimes differ. May I quote a few words which fell from the Leader of the Opposition in the Debate on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, in which he ended up a very remarkable passage with these words: time this tragedy is continuing in our midst, and hopeless despair is entering into the minds of a very large section of the working class. Our great industries are in a parlous position, and I think that all parties in the House will agree that the burdens of taxation in our midst are largely choking those industries from any possible expansion.
Apparently, if we can believe the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne), the four black pennies which we see discussed would be sufficient—so near are our industries to the precipice—to hurl over industries into the abyss completely. Therefore I think that I am right in suggesting that I am on common ground with all parties in this House when I say that this country can stand no further taxation, and I am also on common ground when I say that the likelihood of a restoration of prosperity is not very great unless we can very considerably reduce our taxation and the debt which is hanging round our necks. I wish to call attention, especially of the hon. Gentlemen who are the official Opposition in this House, to the fact, on which the fate of this country must so largely rest from now onwards, that we levy almost the whole of this tax upon our own people in such a way as to increase our productive costs in every industry.
That the situation is really a desperate one is admitted by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen of extremely different points of view. We have the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), all telling us in words which we cannot ignore that the industry of this country is in a thoroughly parlous position, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said:
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will permit me, I scarcely said that. I made an estimate that for 12 months it would be a million, and that after that it might be 800,000. I did not contemplate a change of Government. The effect is a million and a quarter.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman said that in future the normal figure must be regarded as 800,000. I am quite prepared to write to the newspapers withdrawing it if I have made a misstatement.
It is not necessary.
It is admitted by all parties that this unemployment, all these casualties in the ranks of business and labour are due to lack of trade, and we are faced with this astounding fact that our imports into this country, which, up to the end of 1922, averaged about £200,000,000 per annum, of wholly or mainly manufactured goods, in 1923 rose to £256,000,000, and I would ask the House to note that in the last completed 12 months up to the 31st of March, 1925, the figure rose to £314,000,000. I need not emphasise the point that, supposing the whole of those manufactured goods, which I do not suggest, were manufactured in our own country you would practically have solved your unemployment question.
No.
I am not suggesting that we could produce everything, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman who is always so anxious to see what can be done for the unemployed in these constituencies who are engaged on one of the great famous basic industries of the country in which we led the way, and who now comes to ask His Majesty's Government what they are going to do in his constituency, will agree with me that if by a miracle the whole of these goods could be manufactured in this country we should have practically got rid of our unemployment problem. Take a more moderate assumption. Suppose that we agree in this House that the unemployment question is a more important question than any party advantage, and we say we are going to put a consider able safeguarding taxation upon those fully manufactured goods, is it not a fact that if you were to produce half of those goods you would be producing sufficient work for half a million men in this country at £3 a week, and would not this also save £30,000,000 of unemployed relief in the year? Would it not provide at least £10,000,000 increased Income Tax and Super-tax on any industries in this country, which would be engaged on the manufacture of these goods, and, further, the other half of the. goods which would come in would pay £50,000,000 of revenue to the Exchequer. In other words, we should find employment for half a million people, apart from all other plans and suggestions, we would relieve the burden of taxation, which, again, would be a great stimulus to employment, and we would reduce the whole burden of taxation by £90,000,000 a year.
When the Opposition produce the Eight-to-work Bill and such like Measures and proposals, and lay down the right of every man to receive wages in this country, it seems to me a most extraordinary thing that we should deprive our fellow countrymen of the right to wages by allowing this flood of competitive goods to come into this country, produced, as no less a Free Trader, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon, has told us, in conditions with which this country cannot possibly compete. It is really like Alice in Wonderland that the official Opposition in this House seem to see things in the way in which they do. I am well aware of the fact that my hon. and right hon. Friends who sit on the Government Benches cannot deal with this question as an emergency Measure at once. Unfortunately, by making a most unfortunate pledge, their hands are tied. Personally I hope most sincerely that, as far as taking pledges in this way in future is concerned, the Conservative leaders will be total abstainers. To tie the hands of those who come after you is a most unfortunate thing, and should we make pledges in the hour of defeat—because sometimes then we are inclined to be a little bit despondent—we can do nothing in this matter unless we have the cooperation of men of good will of all parties.
I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) on that bench who, I know, feels with the greatest sincerity the whole question of unemployment, and I ask him whether if there is any truth in the statement that we could do something to find work for half our unemployed people by changing a system of this kind it is not the duty and the honour of himself and his colleagues to go to His Majesty's Government and say "we are prepared to release you from your declaration which you made before the elections and we are prepared to help you in setting up as suggested an immediate Committee of Inquiry as to whether these industries could not be salved"?
A General Election?
I do not know that the country is very anxious to have a General Election in the near future. Even then, in a position of this kind, if they really mean that this unemployment question comes before all else, is it a question to put before the country at a General Election?
The official Opposition cannot absolve the Government from their pledge to the country.
3.0 P.M.
I absolutely agree with that. On the other hand if the party represented on these benches were able to say that they will support the Government in an extended policy of safeguarding industries for this country I think that no one in the country would have any cause to complain. After all we are the representatives of the two great parties who are far and away the largest numbered of the electors of this country. I believe that the Opposition are sincere in this wish, and I urge that it would be an act of great statesmanship and an act of great humanity if they could themselves assist in trying to provide new measures of work in this direction. My last word is simply to say this. I believe that there are many methods by which we can help. To-day we heard from the Liberal Benches—and I was delighted to hear them—fiercely indignant questions as to why machinery for sugar beet was not produced in this country. We have also in recent days heard hon. Members on these benches demand why taxes were not put on foreign luxuries. All these things show a change of heart which give an indication that even on the part of the Liberal party there is some change. But when we turn to the official Opposition in this House, I believe there is every opportunity for striking a blow for British trade and industry if only they would put aside party advantage for the moment and stand with us for a great national policy which would be of immense advantage to the whole country.
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and, having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—
1. Importation of Pedigree Animals Act, 1925. 2. Protection of Birds Act, 1925. 3. Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions Continuation) Act, 1925. 4. Church of Scotland (Property and Endowments) Act, 1925. 5. Northern Ireland Land Act, 1925. 6. Poor Law Emergency Provisions Continuance (Scotland) Act, 1925. 7. Imperial Institute Act, 1925. 8. Air Ministry (Croydon Aerodrome Extension) Act, 1925. 9. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Keighley Water Charges) Act, 1925. 10. Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Act, 1925. 11. Forfar Gas Order Confirmation Act, 1925. 12. Port of London Act, 1925.
13. South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Act, 1925. 14. Great Western Railway Act, 1925. 15. Aire and Calder Navigation Act, 1925. 16. Lloyds' Act, 1925. 17. Burgees Hill Water Act, 1925. 18. Oxford Corporation Act, 1925.
And to the following Measure passed under the provisions of The Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919—
Interpretation Measure, 1925.
Adjournment (Whitsuntide)
Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
I want to continue the Debate on the lines followed by the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney), who dealt with three phases of the unemployment question—shipping, coal and Protection. I want to draw the attention of the House, and particularly that of the Government, to the extraordinary, the supernormal position, that exists in the shipbuilding industry. Sacrifices have been made by the men and by the employers, and yet that industry has not revived. The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Russell) stated that in his opinion the solution of unemployment would be found outside this House. I take an entirely different view. I put forward the proposition that this is the place where unemployment was caused, that it is here that by an insane and supernormal policy employment is being perpetuated, that even the seeds of decay in British industry have been laid here, and that it is here that they will have to be removed. If we went home and found ourselves up to the knees in water in the kitchen and the tap running at full cock, we would not sit down on a chair and call a meeting of the servants to determine what the plumber's bill was to be. If we were sensible we would turn off the tap.
When, last Friday, I listened to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) chide Labour Members, on a certain Bill, for expressing certain sentiments and doing something that was the opposite, I thought of his own words as Prime Minister before he went over to Versailles to sign the Treaty which has caused the unemployment arid perpetuated it. If I remember his words rightly, the right hon. Gentleman, speaking upon reparation tonnage, said that great care would have to be taken so that the receiving countries would not suffer more than the paying countries. I say to him that if great care, if ordinary care had been taken, or if any care at all had been taken, the depression of the last four years would not have occurred. My reason for drawing attention to reparation tonnage is that some information has come through from fairly authentic quarters that something is being imposed on Article 8 of the Treaty of Versailles which is likely to be even more serious for British industry than the Treaty itself. For the figures which I shall quote relating to reparation tonnage I am indebted to a special correspondent of the "Newcastle Chronicle and North Mail." I have submitted the figures to what I regard as competent authorities, and I am told that they are approximately correct and quotable. If they are correct, a most serious state of affairs exists, and all the platitudes to which we have listened to-day regarding the revival of industry will avail us nothing if the present insane policy is pursued by the Government.
The figures deal first with August, 1921, and presumably they refer to the tonnage provided under Article 8 of the Treaty. There were seized in August, 1921, no less than 1,670,000 tons, of which 1,350,000 tons were sold. In July, 1922, 1,800,000 tons were taken over; in January, 1923, 782,198 tons. Here we come to the more serious part. In January, 1924, 629,763 tons were taken over, and in March, 1925, 781,000 tons of shipping. We knew what were the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles. We knew that nearly 4,000,000 tons of old ships were to be taken over, and another 1,000,000 tons of shipping, of which we would probably receive one half. But there is no one in this country who anticipated that on top of all that tonnage we were going to take over nearly 3,000,000 tons more of shipping. If these figures are correct, we have been receiving right up to to-day Germany's old tonnage, which has been put on the market in competition with our own shipbuilding products at a price of £7 8s. per ton, which is probably about 70 per cent, of what new tonnage can be built for here.
At present Lord Inchcape has on the market five vessels of an aggregate tonnage of something over 40,000 tons. What does all this mean? None of us is afraid of the evil that is known. We knew the provisions of the Treaty, and we have been waiting for the five years from 1919 to 1924 to pass, expecting that when that time had passed this evil of German tonnage would cease, and that at last our industry would have a chance. We knew that evil. As a representative of a constituency that is in the heart of the second most important shipbuilding centre in the world, I ask the Government how long this policy of receiving tonnage from Germany is to go on. We are outside the provisions of the Treaty now between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 tons. The newspaper to which I have referred uses a very strong term, and says that it is "theft upon a national scale." I ask, is the shipbuilding industry of this country to be ruined by this policy of going altogether outside the eighth and ninth Articles of the Treaty? The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) made an excellent Protectionist speech, and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Uxbridge travelled along the same line. I want to ask the two hon. Members what are they and their party doing whilst this most colossal piece of dumping that was ever perpetrated upon a long-suffering people is going on? What is the use of talking platitudes about the revival of industry when we have brought into the country 6,100,000 tons of German shipping and dumped it here, representing as it does four years normal output of British shipbuilding? What is the use of talking about better understandings and all the rest of it?
We have to face the facts fairly and squarely. Hon. Members opposite will have to ask their Government whether the advantages, or disadvantages, of this policy are such as to justify our pursuing it any longer. I do not know what are the Government's reasons for the policy. They may have reasons and they may be good reasons, but I am entitled to know what the reasons are, so that the disadvantages may be weighed against the advantages, if there be any. The House and the country would then know why we pursue the policy. I have put the case strongly. We have gone beyond the stage of depression in the industry, and we are actually in a process of decay. As one who has supervised work for many years, as head of a department in the industry, I will state what I mean by the seeds of decay. In the shipbuilding and engineering industry, after every period of depression lasting, say, 12 months or 15 months, the great difficulty that we have experienced has been a shortage of boy labour—not boy labour as such, but efficient boy labour. In this industry a longer period of training is necessary for boys in order to make them efficient so that they can make up sets or squads of men. That difficulty has been experienced after 12 or 15 months of depression. Now we have gone through four years of depression. Moreover, we lost one generation of boys in the War—I lost the greater portion of my apprentices in the War—and now we are losing another generation in the peace.
I cannot emphasise too much the statement that, if this policy of receiving German tonnage is pursued, the seeds of decay will be actively at work in the industry. We have youths up to 19 and 20 who would now be going to the shipyards to the business that their fathers and grandfathers followed, but those youths have never started working, and it is no exaggeration to say that the shortage will be so acute that it will not be overcome. German and Continental shipyards, that we are striving our best to get alongside of, are reaping the advantage of this. During the whole period of our depression they have been working overtime in three of the largest centres in Germany. On account of the housing shortage—it exists there as well as here—the young men have been asked to work unlimited overtime, and they have agreed. Yet we are pursuing a policy which gives them the advantage and gives us the depression and disadvantage, and we are planting the seeds of decay in our industry. We want to know what the position is. We are entitled to know what is the Government's policy, and whether the figures which I have quoted in good faith are correct.
I wish to say a few words about inflation. There is no question about it that what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge is absolutely correct. We all have in mind what Mr. McKenna said on the subject to his shareholders at the annual meeting of the Midland Bank about three years ago. He had before him carefully prepared figures regarding the drawing in of the paper currency and unemployment, and he showed that quarter after quarter, after the policy of deflation had been adopted, up went the figures of unemployment. He showed that a deflation policy had a direct effect upon industry. These two factors together, the deflation policy and the policy of taking German tonnage years after year, right up to March this year—
The hon. Member Has referred to what I said previously about German tonnage. May I suggest that he has not quite covered the point that German tonnage is sold for reparation purposes, that it is perfectly open to German nationals to buy the tonnage themselves, and that, nevertheless, our shipyards have been practically empty while the Germans have been building 2,500,000 tons of new shipping.
It is perfectly open to German nationals to do so, but the obvious fact which concerns us is that they are not doing so. These two Government policies, namely, deflation and the acceptance of German tonnage, justify me in saying to the hon. Member for Tynemouth that it is not outside this House but inside this House, where the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs turned on the tap, that the tap will have to be turned off and the necessary steps taken to resuscitate British industry.
The hon. Member who has just sat down brought forward some very striking figures, and those who represent ship-building centres will be interested to hear an explanation of the Government's position on this matter. It is time we ceased to take in this German tonnage —if we are doing so—when for so many years our shipyards have been idle. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour will give a satisfactory reply to that point. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) gave us one of his interesting and characteristic Protectionist speeches. He put a question to the House. He asked if we could stop the £314,000,000 worth of goods which we import from coming in, would not that at once solve our unemployment problem, and he seemed to think that he had answered that question satisfactorily by an affirmative. How does he consider that these goods are paid for? It is obvious that they are paid for by the export of other goods, and consequently if you refuse to take in £314,000,000 worth of imports, you reduce your exports to the same extent. In confirmation of that view it is significant to find that, as our imports have risen our unemployment figure has fallen, and as our imports decrease, so our unemployment figure increases. This statement can be confirmed by anyone who examines the trade statistics for recent years. That is the most effective answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth.
Whatever may be the efficacy of Tariff Reform, or of a Socialistic system of government neither of these cures, be they good or bad, can be brought into practice at once and the problem for the House is what we are going to do here and now to deal with the terrible problem of 1,250,000 unemployed. When the Parliamentary Secretary replies I hope he will hold out some hope of the Government doing more than they are doing in regard to palliatives. I admit that the only real cure is the restoration of trade throughout the world, but in the meantime, while we are working towards that end, what are we doing by palliatives to help to ease the burden which is pressing so severely on our industrial areas? We know that the Government have given assistance to local authorities to carry on certain works for the relief of unemployment and whilst it may be true that the Government have no big programme of national schemes of employment which it is prepared to put in hand at once, yet in so far as local authorities have schemes in their own districts, cannot the Government do more than they are doing to assist those schemes? The total amount of work made available by these means may not be very large in any individual district but it is better to encourage useful and productive work in this way rather than continue to swell the amount of benefit paid out to the unemployed. Since the Armistice we have paid out in unemployment relief, both as payments to able-bodied persons through the guardians and as the dole to ex-service men, a capital sum of over £300,000,000. That shows the folly of continuing to pay out to able-bodied men when no service is rendered in return. It is of course necessary that money should be paid out to relieve suffering, but it would be better if a larger amount of work could be put in hand.
Many local authorities have exhausted their financial resources and we are now facing the fourth or fifth winter of unemployment. Local authorities, burdened by rates amounting in many cases to 15s., 20s. and 25s. in the pound, find it impossible to continue. The authorities of the town which I have the honour to represent, faced with the problem of the coming winter, have had to report that they are at the end of their resources and cannot afford to swell further the already high rates by undertaking new works. The Government will be faced with a very serious problem if local authorities are compelled to stop carrying out those works which they have been carrying out up to the present. In my own town we have spent over £1,000,000 during the last three or four years on schemes for the relief of unemployment and the rates are 18s. 4d. in the pound, and it will be impossible to add to those rates which are crippling industry unless the Government give greater assistance. The present rate of Government assistance is 65 per cent, for half the period of the loan, which works out at one-third of the total charge. In normal conditions that might be substantial assistance, but in the present abnormal conditions it is impossible to carry on with such assistance. In a limited number of cases the Government at the end of last year increased the percentage to 75 per cent, for half the period of the loan, but that again is not sufficient. I appeal to the Minister to consider the position seriously and to say whether he cannot in these abnormal times do something more to ease the burden on those districts which are suffering most severely.
It is those districts where unemployment is heaviest which require consideration. The hon. Member who spoke last referred to the figures of unemployment in shipbuilding as being between 40 and 44 per cent.; in marine engineering the percentage is 25 per cent, on the North East coast, and in the heavy iron and steel industries generally, it is 25 per cent. Where that excessive amount of unemployment exists it is impossible for these, impoverished towns—these devastated areas—to carry the burden any longer. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will ask the Treasury to do something to relieve those burdens which are preventing the restoration of industry. How is it possible when local rates are increasing for our shipyards to compete with foreign shipyards? It is not a question of a subsidy or of protection against foreign competition, but of protection against the overwhelming charge of local rates. That is what is hindering the recovery of trade. I hope the Government will not only give a sympathetic ear to the claims of these devastated areas, but will put in hand works of national importance, and instead of spending £100,000,000 a year on able-bodied unemployed will undertake a larger number of works which will be of a useful and helpful character.
I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for East Newcastle (Mr. Connolly). I hope I will not be taken as being badly informed when I state that it is news to me that we are still taking ships from Germany. I think it is also news to many Members of this House and to many people in the country. I sympathise with the hon. Member's very natural objection, as the representative of a shipbuilding constituency, to this course. If the ships are being handed over to Lord Inchcape to be sold, as I understood the hon. Member to say, then this proceeding has something to do with reparations, and I think some steps should be taken by the Government to put an end to such a state of affairs. Personally, I always had a doubt as to the advisability of taking reparations in the form of goods capable of being manufactured in this country. I was always of opinion that when we got the German mercantile marine it would have been better to have filled most of the ships with concrete and used them for the construction of suitable harbours round our coast for the fishermen. I announced that opinion on two or three occasions, and it was treated with ridicule by all except the fishermen and others who would have benefited by such harbours. That course would certainly have saved us from selling ships below cost to individuals who benefited thereby, while as a result of such action we were injuring one of our most important industries, and, as the hon. Member pointed out, preventing young men from acquiring the art and skill which is necessary to maintain that industry.
That is not the only drawback of such a policy. We must also look at the number of first-class shipbuilding men who have left this country and who will not be available when trade revives again and their services are required. One man told me that through his agency no less than 50 workers were shipped across to Holland to settle there permanently. Of course, we have had more labour troubles in this country than in those other countries. I know a case of one large shipowner who was having repairs done to a ship which should have cost about £2,000. A strike took place, the vessel was laid up in dry dock for 96 days and the cost of the repairs came to £36,000 before he was finished.
Where was that?
My informant was a shipowner, but it is about five years ago since I got the particulars, and I cannot undertake to give all the details at the present time. As a result, this particular shipowner, who has built very largely on the Clyde in the last few years, sent a good many ships to Rotterdam for repairs. I think, however, the situation in that respect is greatly ameliorated, because I notice amongst all classes of the community a desire to take the advice that was given by the Prime Minister on 6th March—advice which, I may say, as a result of considerable personal sacrifice, I took myself. I desire, if possible, to make peace in industry among all classes. I want the working classes, above all, the miners, to realise that they are engaged in competitive industries, are fighting the German miner with pick and shovel, just as much as when they were fighting with bayonet and bomb. If those who are engaged in industries competing with other countries do not realise that, and instead prefer to follow the example of the sheltered trades, then their industries will inevitably die. The more it is recognised that they are in a European compe- tition, the less likely it is that the decay of which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken will continue, and the more likely it is to be arrested.
On the question of the fundamental industries the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in debate the other day described the history of this country after the Napoleonic Wars. He described how the people were assembled together in the towns, and how they started the heavy industries. If he casts his mind back he will realise that the heavy industries were all based on cheap coal. Steel, iron, shipbuilding and our railway system were all founded upon coal. That is the keystone of the arch of our industry still. People nowadays are fond of using the word "electricity." It seems to be a sort of blessed word, like Mesopotamia used to be before we spent so much money there and knew so much about it. It is always being used in discussing unemployment problems. But while they talk about electricity, it has not yet come. We are still in the coal age, despite the fact that many ships and many industries have been adapted to the use of oil. We were successful in this country after the Napoleanic Wars, because we built on the miner's back, because we built on coal. We cannot do it now, because the miner is not taking an adequate period to do the day's work that he used to do. Parliament has interfered and put an end to the liberty that the miner, like any other man, used to have to agree with his employer to do what he liked. Nevertheless one sees that the miner and his employer are coming together to-day.
I ask the miners' leaders in this House and in the country to realise the change of affairs that has come about. The men are beginning to see that this interference with their liberty is doing them harm and is causing their pits to be shut down. If the miners' leaders do not lead them in that direction, they will miss the boat, because the miners and their employers will settle the problem without them. It is impossible to carry on the steel or iron industries with coal at its present price. On coal coming from South Wales to Cardiff I am told that the increase in railway rates is 215 per cent. That is a burden, not only on the miner, but on the whole community, which makes it impos- sible to carry on. If we could get back again, then the same thing would happen as after the Napoleonic Wars. I believe that, if we could get the miners to work the eight hours day again, the increased productivity would be over 25 per cent.
Nonsense.
I will give you the figures. They come from the Overseas Trade Department. Germany in 1921 worked a seven-hour day, and in 1924 an eight-hour day. When they had the seven-hour day the production was 43.16 tons, and with the eight-hour day it was 57.28 tons, an increase of 33 per cent. per man. Those are taken from figures showing the production of the German workmen in two periods of three months both ending in September. From those figures it is possible to trace the effect of the seven-hour day and compare it with the eight-hour day. If Germany increased production by 33 per cent., then it is putting it, moderately to say, that the increase would be 25 per cent. in our case.
Could the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us if the miner's working day in Germany is an eight-hour day from bank to bank, compared with ours of seven hours, excluding winding time?
Eight hours from bank to bank.
Then our miners work a longer day than the German miners.
All I know is that, when the German miner worked a seven-hour day, he had an output which was 33 per cent. less than when he worked eight hours.
My point is that the miner here works a longer time than the German miner.
That is not so. There is no doubt whatever that the British miner got his hours greatly cut down through the Sankey Commission, which was held at a time when everything appeared to be booming and it was believed that the country could afford those shorter hours. When a country is looking prosperous, it is perfectly natural for people to ask to have the burden of a toilsome and laborious life made a little easier. But when it is in a slump, is in the mire of unemployment, and when that fundamental change affects the whole of the industries, then surely that is the time to say "Instead of taking shorter hours than are usual, we will take a little bit more and see if we cannot increase the output." At present, you do not give the middle-aged man, or the man who has passed his prime, and who is working on piece-work, a reasonable time to earn a proper wage. Supposing that a miner had to mark off his claim himself, as is done in Rhodesia, and had to hew the coal out and wheel it to a railway siding, would not that man recognise very soon that he could not compete, working a seven hours day, against a man working an eight hours day? It would be a totally different proposition. The thing is disguised from them now owing to the fact that they are working for a limited company.
Is the hon. and learned Member aware that at the present time the production for a man per shift is twice as high as in Belgium, one-and-a-half times as high as in France, and a great deal higher than in Germany?
The question is, are we producing as much as we can?
Is the hon. and learned Member aware that we have thousands of miners out of work already? It is not a question of working more, because they will not let men work to-day who want to work.
The reason is that the coal is at prices at which we cannot sell it. You can sell any amount of coal if you get it cheap enough, and cheap coal will enable other industries to compete successfully with those abroad. Coal is the fundamental industry, the basis on which the structure of the whole of our industry is built.
You want men to work for nothing.
I want the miners to be well paid. I know the miners well. The miners in Scotland have not had a single action of any kind in Scotland since 1910 in which I was not for them.
You were well paid for it, and you had your minimum working day.
No, I have never had a minimum working day. Another point arises from the fact that all these workmen employed in the mines have joined in one great pool, and are trying to work as one essential unit. That is all wrong and is founded, like many other Syndicalist theories that are being propounded nowadays, on a wholly immoral basis. It is founded on the theory that an industry is carried on for the benefit of those engaged in it. That is an utterly wrong foundation for an industry or a profession or anything else. Every business and every profession should be carried on from the point of view of the benefit of the customer, the client, the consumer or the community. A doctor who considers his own fees rather than his patients, and a lawyer who considers his private account more than his clients, will soon have neither patients nor clients. In the same way men in one industry who join together in order to put their industry in a privileged position are acting on an unsound basis that is bound to result in disaster.
The only thing for the mining industry is to do all they can to get the coal out as quickly as possible, and let the community have it at the cheapest price. If they do that, they too will benefit. The sheltered industries that are not exposed to foreign competition are doing a great injustice to those other industries which create the wealth that helps to pay for the sheltered industries. I think it is a monstrous thing that the railways should be putting such a tariff upon coal that it reduces the miner's prosperity and makes it impracticable for us to have the export of coal that we used to have. These are some of the reasons which are creating the unemployment that is at present affecting us. I do ask, in the interests of the peace that we all Have at heart, that both sides should begin to recognise that the war of competition is going on like the war went on before 1918, and that it is necessary for us all to recognise that we have got to work for unity in industry. If that is done, I feel certain that the prosperity of this country will return.
4.0 P.M.
I have listened to this discussion with intense interest, and I am bound to say it appears to me that we shall not be able to solve the unemployment problem by the sort of discussion we have had to-day, as on many other occasions of recent times. I do not propose this afternoon to follow an academic course, or to indulge in the technicalities which have characterised some of the speeches which have been delivered. I want, if I may, to come down to what I might call the everyday problems, and to present to the House some statistics from my constituency which, I think, ought to arouse, not only the indignation of the House, but also that of Ministers. I refer to the deplorable conditions obtaining in the county of Durham. As hon. Members know, Durham is controlled by the two basic industries of mining and shipbuilding. At the present moment out of 140,000 miners, 40,000 are unemployed. Out of nearly 200 mines, no less than 75 were closed down up to last Saturday, and since then three others have closed down. That is a very serious proportion of the number of mines and miners in the county. Distress has become so real that the boards of guardians, in conference, passed a resolution that a deputation should be sent to the Minister of Labour and to the Minister of Health to ask them to consider what alleviation could be made in respect of that distress.
That deputation yesterday met one of the representatives of the Minister of Labour. They placed before that gentleman some rather astounding figures. Those figures were given for the purpose of trying to ascertain whether the Minister of Labour intended to make any relief in regard to the eight-stamp qualification; further, whether it was the intention of the Minister of Labour to enforce the 30-sbamp qualification before 31st October of this year. They also asked whether it was the intention of the Minister, in the first place, to consider the case of necessitous areas, knowing that there has been some difficulty in regard to the delineation of what fairly constitutes a necessitous area. I feel sure, however, that it cannot be beyond the computation of the statistician to tell us the relationship between the amount of distress in a town and the growth of the population. If it can be determined on that basis, there should be in the county of Durham a certain percentage between non-necessitous and necessitous areas.
For example, I have the honour to be the Member for the Jarrow Division of Durham. The shipyards at Jarrow have not worked for three years. The blast furnaces have been blown out. Many people there have not been able to qualify for unemployment benefit, even on the eight-stamp basis, because they have not worked the period; consequently, that seems to me a disqualification that ought to receive the serious consideration of the Minister. I have figures before me that I will ask the House to consider very carefully. Take Jarrow to begin with. On the 18th of this month, on the live register in that town, there were 5,056 persons. Over four-fifths of these were men. During the same period, the board of guardians paid out relief to 3,420 persons. This gives a total of 8,476 persons either relying upon unemployment benefit or Poor Law relief. The total population of Jarrow is 35,500 odd. If you make allowance for juniors in the many families represented, it would appear that no less than 45 per cent, of the population are at present dependent upon either Poor Law relief or unemployment benefit. That is to say, roughly speaking, every other person you meet in the streets of Jarrow depends upon relief of one sort or another to keep going.
Surely that is a state of affairs that ought to cause very grave concern? As a matter of fact, it is not because those concerned love the dole. I happen to know these men well. It is because some of them cannot live without it. Some of the men who have spoken to me have said that they feel really perturbed to have to take money of any sort without having worked for it. That seems to me to go to the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) when he said what the workman to-day wanted was work and not the dole. Then, in respect to another part of my constituency, Hebburn, while things there are not so bad, nevertheless one in every five persons is in receipt of relief of one kind or another. I think I ought to say that I believe the Minister of Labour is at the moment considering whether or not he will introduce a short Bill to give some relief of some kind or another. I hope he will. I have heard of some who chink that last Friday the Government made a very great mistake in not giving a Second Reading to our Prevention of Unemployment Bill. Some of us, perhaps, do not care for the description under that head of that Bill. Again, the Minister of Labour who was speaking in one part of the country said it was the most foolish thing that had ever been introduced into the House of Commons. It would, perhaps, not be wrong to say— though I do not wish to make any cruel aspersions—that it must be a more foolish thing for any Minister of the Crown, no matter what be his office, whether he be denominated the Minister of Labour or the President of the Board of Trade—for these right hon. Gentlemen to take up an attitude of that kind. The work of the Minister of Labour should be not that of the head of a statistical bureau compiling figures of unemployment. Nor should the President of the Board of Trade merely take the figures of imports and exports: rather in both cases they should explore, the one all avenues for the outlet of labour, and the other all avenues for the outlet of trade. Power should be given to the two Ministers to act in concert, and in the directions in which I have indicated. I do not know whether the conclusion has been come to, as one of the present Members of the Cabinet stated in this House, that industry must work out its own salvation. Rather I think it is the duty of the State to lend all possible assistance to any Minister and to give him power to open up all sources that promise to be fruitful in work or trade.
I will not detain the House for more than a few minutes, but there are one or two observations that I should like to make upon this problem, before we disperse for the Whitsuntide Recess. The first thing I should like to do is to make reference to the speech delivered by the hon. Member for Coat-bridge (Mr. Welsh), simply to say that I thought that there was a touch in that speech too often absent from the speeches of hon. Members in these debates. I have listened to almost every speech which has been delivered by hon. Members in the debates on the unemployment problem since this Parliament assembled. I have throughout been struck by one fact, and that is, that while hon. Members on all sides of the House have exhibited a remarkable facility for painting the picture and for putting the position of the industry as it is in this country to-day before the House, they have also exhibited a remarkable inability to bring forward any constructive proposals or suggestions of a practical kind. That, I think, particularly applies to the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). He has painted so often during this Parliament the blackest picture of industrial conditions in this country, yet he has only stated in the vaguest way any remedies which he thinks may profitably be applied.
I believe that this problem, that this question of unemployment, can only be solved by three methods. The first method, I believe, to be by a complete industrial re-organisation in this country. The second method, I believe, to be by a vigorous agricultural policy on the part of the Government. The third method, I believe, to be a bold and courageous Imperial policy, the advocacy of which was largely responsible, I believe, for the great majority which the Government at present enjoys. In regard to the first point—the question of industrial reorganisation—I do think that the Government ought to direct its attention at the present time towards assisting industry to re-organise itself. One of the most remarkable features about the present industrial situation in this country, to anyone who has made any study of it at all, however cursory, is the curious lack of confidence which exists between what I may perhaps describe as the industrial world and the financial world. There is practically no relationship between the two. The banking system of this country is, I think, the finest in the world, but it is totally out of relation with the industrial system.
This provides a remarkable contrast to the conditions obtaining in Germany. In Germany at the present time the banks are in almost every case behind the big industries in the country. Whether they in their turn are subsidised by their Government I do not know, but I think it would be worth the while of the Foreign Office to endeavour to find out to what extent, if at all, German industry is subsidised by the Government through the banks, if they can claim that they are in severe competition with British industry. I have heard from various sources recently some rather disquieting stories to the effect that the German Government, which have a very large Budget surplus, have during the last six or seven months been directly subsidising those industries which could prove that by that subsidy they could drive British manufactured goods from the markets. I do not pretend to know whether there is any real foundation for these stories, but I think it would be worth while to make investigations. Though the banks, the merchant banks, and what are called the "big five," conduct their business with the greatest integrity and with great skill, I feel it must be galling for British manufacturers to see loans, substantial loans, advanced by our own banks in London to foreign countries and to foreign corporations and combines, which are in fierce competition with our own country, and yet that is the position to-day. Bankers in the City of London will only take up 15 per cent, of a New Zealand or other Dominion loan, or a loan brought out for the benefit of the industries of this country. At the same time they will lend £200,000,000 or more to Austria, and I believe their holdings in Germany and Czechoslovakia are large. I do not say that these invisible exports do not affect this country beneficially, nor do I challenge the methods of our banking system, but I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether he does not think the Government might usefully intervene in this sphere by giving their guarantee to certain concern in the big industries, where unemployment is most rife, but whose standing and reputation are very high, in order that the bankers of this country should be enabled to make loans of a comprehensive and wide nature, on favourable terms of interest, to the basic industries—cotton, shipbuilding, engineering and coal mining.
In this connection I would like to say one or two words about the Bank rate. I think it is unfortunate that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister should, during the last fortnight or so, have gone out of their way to emphasise the fact that in their opinion a high Bank rate has not a detrimental effect upon industry in this country. I quite agree that its effect has been grossly exaggerated by many financial papers, and other papers of less repute, and I think many of the so-called economic theorists in this country have gone out of their way to distort the facts in connection with a high Bank rate. But I do say that experience during the last few years has proved quite conclusively that a policy of active deflation in this country is most disastrous to British trade; and that is the opinion of a great many industrialists. The psychological effect is, I believe, as great as any material effect; and I ask the Government to do everything in their power to prevent a rise in the Bank rate during the next critical 10 months or a year, because of its effect on big industries, with large capital and heavy overdrafts, which turn over not more than once a year and employ the largest number of workers. If there is a substantial rise in the Bank rate, it is followed by a proportionate rise in the rates charged by the smaller banks, and it makes it very difficult for those big industries, or for any man who is starting out in an industry for the first time to raise the capital to carry on. The Prime Minister said the other night that it had been his experience that when there was a high bank rate trade conditions were good, and when there was a low Bank rate trade conditions were usually bad. But the fact is that in the past the Bank rate was raised, very rightly and properly raised, in order to prevent speculation and soaring prices at a, time of boom, and, correspondingly, the Rank rate was lowered to 2 per cent, or 3 per cent, when there was a period of unparalleled industrial depression. Therefore, that argument is capable of being interpreted in two ways.
Turning to the actual reorganisation of industry itself, I think this question of industrial councils deserves the most serious attention of the Government. An important and influential section of the cotton industry has several times during the last year put forward a plea for an industrial council which shall have the support and active assistance of the Board of Trade. That question ought to be gone into very seriously and carefully by the Government. It applies to all the big basic industries; not to the small industries, but to the basic industries; be- cause the time has come when if we are to compete successfully with our foreign rivals in the markets of the world the industry of this country must be organised on a far more scientific basis than it has been in the past. If one could get at the head of these basic industries an industrial council representative of both employers and of the trades unions in the particular industry, which would consider such questions as the purchase and marketing of goods, the buying of raw materials, the stabilising of prices, the question of co-partnership, and other such questions, I believe it would be of great value to this country.
I would ask the Government to study the commercial and industrial conditions in the United States of America at the present moment. I make no reflection whatever upon the President of the Board of Trade, but there is at this moment in America a man of world-wide reputation, acknowledged to be nothing less than a commercial and industrial genius, at the head of the Ministry of Commerce. I refer to Mr. Hoover. Mr. Hoover's administration both at the Ministry of Agriculture and at the Ministry of Commerce has achieved the most astonishingly successful results, and I think it would be well worth the while of our Board of Trade to study the methods which have been adopted by Mr. Hoover and the Ministry of Commerce in the United States. One of the most remarkable features of that administration is the confidence which exists in the United States between the Ministry of Commerce and industry. There is practically no secrecy at all. The big industrialists, who have their industrial councils at the head of industries, have the complete confidence of Mr. Hoover, and in return they give him their complete confidence. There are practically no secrets between them. I am inclined to think there is far too much secrecy and mystery about accounts and profits and so forth in industry here. It is quite unnecessary. I agree that there should be no publication of balance sheets in big industries— [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—if it were found to be detrimental to our foreign trade, but there should be more confidence between our industrialists and the Board of Trade, and a really effective Board of Trade policy as between the Board of Trade and the big indus- tries. That is one of the first objectives which should be before the Government of the day. It is not out of accord with the traditional Tory policy. I read a pamphlet by the Lord Privy Seal not long ago advocating the compulsory publication of the balance sheets and accounts of traders in all big industries in this country. I would not go so far as that, but I see no reason why they should not supply the Board of Trade with such information as the Board of Trade deems it expedient to require, and I hope there may be, through an effective Board of Trade policy, far greater confidence between the Government and the big industrialists. I urge the Government, if they can, to send one or two officials even of the Board of Trade to America to study the methods of the Ministry of Commerce in the United States, for I believe it would be of great benefit to the country.
I have one further word to say, and it is about agricultural development. I understand that His Majesty's Government are evolving an agricultural policy. I hope when it comes it will be a courageous and a bold policy. There is no reason why we should not produce in this country on the same scale as Denmark. The soil of this country is no worse. It is a question of organisation, of encouragement, of education above almost everything else, and of a reasonable system of land tenure and of land settlement. I hope the Government will devote their attention to that particular factor in the situation.
The last point I would like to make is with regard to Imperial policy. I hope His Majesty's Government will continue to encourage those permanent officials and others who are at the present moment making a close study of the question of the production and the stabilisation of the prices of imported Imperial produce. That, I think, is a tremendously important question and deserves most careful study. If unemployment continues at the present rate, and if the trade depression continues to be so desperate, the alternative may be another Election on the Protectionist issue. There is only one alternative to Protection, so far as Imperial policy is concerned, and that is co-operation with the Dominions where Empire production is concerned. The Dominions want to get prices for their agricultural produce stabilised, and to get some form of contract, a contract for two or three years, in order to be quite sure of a market in this country for their produce. If we can give them that, I believe they would give us still greater facilities for the export of our manufactured goods than they do at the present time. There is an opportunity there to secure new markets, if new markets we are to have. If, like many hon. Members on the Liberal Benches, we are to put all our confidence in the further development of European markets, then I think the outlook is black indeed; but if we concentrate on increasing and developing Imperial markets, I think the outlook is far from black; but it is only by a policy either of Protection, from which we are debarred at the moment, or of co-operation with the Dominions in the production of raw materials, and an endeavour to stabilise the prices of those raw materials that we are going to pull through. There is an outcry amongst certain of the more radical sections of this country against the Export Control Boards which are at present in existence in Australia and New Zealand. It is no good taking that sort of line. We have got to study their methods. We have got to try to work in conjunction) with those Export Control Boards in order to provide this country with raw materials and agricultural produce at a reasonable but stabilised price.
I was very much alarmed at the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day in turning down a proposal from the Prime Minister of Australia that the Imperial Preference on dried fruits proposed in the Budget should be advanced by one or two months, or whatever period it was that the Prime Minister of Australia required. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he was not satisfied that the produce would be seriously affected, and that advantages would be secured to the Australians if he advanced the time. But with a Unionist Government in power I never suspected that after a Prime Minister of a Dominion had gone out of his way to send two telegrams appealing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do a thing which is, after all, essentially a small thing, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would refuse. In Imperial policy it is these little things which, in the end, count tremendously, and I still hold, as I held in 1923, that the ultimate aim of any Unionist Government in this country should be to make the Empire self-supporting, and that we should aim at being able to obtain all our raw materials and agricultural produce from our own Empire and to supply the Dominions and Colonies with all the manufactured goods they require. In that direction I believe the best hope for the revival of trade in this country lies, and I am not at all sure that it is not the only one. There is a danger creeping into the policy of the Government of this country to which I would like to allude. A most eminent Colonial Statesman—whose name I do not think I ought to give because he did not give me permission—said to me rather bitterly about two days ago:
There is no reason why the Tory party, with its traditions, Should not accept, if the Dominions wish it, some sort of control board with the object of stabilising the prices of agricultural produce. We might have a statutory control board under the Board of Trade, but not of it. Whether that is the way out or not I do not know, but at least it should be investigated on the understanding that we stand against all forms of State ownership and State trading. Control has been established in the United States, and I cannot see, if prices are to be stabilised, why some form of statutory authority should not be given to any control boards that it is found desirable to establish. The Prime Minister the other day referred in glowing and eulogistic terms to the late Lord Milner. I think that was very wise, because I believe he was a great man indeed, and his policy in regard to unemployment was the scientific organisation of industry, coupled with a bold and vigorous Imperial policy. If the Government would adopt those principles I believe we should go very far towards solving the great difficulties with which we are now confronted; and we should leave the doctrine of laissez faire to the Radical parties. Let us pursue the triple objective of industrial reorganisation, agricultural development and Imperial development, by which alone I sincerely believe we can recover that prosperity which we used once to enjoy.
I have been asked by the Minister of Labour to express his great regret that he could not he here this afternoon. Some time ago a meeting was arranged at the Mansion House, in connection with the British Legion, at which he had to be present, dealing with the work of the Appointments Department of the Ministry of Labour, which has recently been transferred to the British Legion; and my right hon. Friend felt it incumbent upon him to be there this afternoon. I think the House, in all quarters, will agree with me in congratulating the hon. Member for Eastern Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) upon his most thoughtful and interesting speech. I am sure he will not think me discourteous if at this time of the afternoon I do not attempt to deal with all the points which he has raised in his speech, or examine at any length the question of how far the Liberal party is in process of absorption by the Tory party. Those are interesting speculations which at another time we may discuss.
There is certainly a good deal in what the hon. Member said that I shall bring before the notice of the Minister of Labour, because he made certain suggestions which ought to receive the careful consideration of my right hon. Friend. I think this is the third or fourth time during the last three or four weeks that we have been discussing the question of unemployment, and I do not think there is anybody in any quarter of the House who would regret or grudge the time we have given to it this afternoon, because the discussion of this question, if our criticisms be not merely captious or merely partisan, is always bound to produce something of value and something really worthy of serious consideration. Therefore it is not a matter of regret or reproach that this question should have been brought up this afternoon, and I am sure the Minister of Labour will be glad that once again we have been discussing this subject.
A fortnight ago, on the 14th of May, there was a Debate in which very many of the questions which we have been discussing this afternoon were raised, and my right hon. Friend then gave his answer to many of those questions in view of that fact I am sure the House will not expect me to give the same answer to the same questions, and which, if I gave them, I should probably give in the same way.
There are one or two questions about which I will say a word or two which were not raised a fortnight ago. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said that the situation is now more alarming than it was six months ago. I know it is sufficiently alarming, although I will not draw a comparison as to whether it is more or less alarming. I agree, however, that the situation is one which commands the sympathy of every Member of this House. The last figures up to the 18th of May show that there are nearly 164,000 more men on the register than there were a year ago. Those figures are alarming, and I agree that they call for the most anxious thought on the part of the Government. There is, however, this curious fact to be considered. A year ago the number of unemployed in the mining industry, according to the figures that I have, was just under 25,000, but to-day the number is nearly 140,000. That is a very great increase, but it is almost entirely represented by the appalling figures as to the amount of unemployment in our collieries. If you add that figure of 70,000, which represents the number of unemployed who are now appearing on the register, but who did not appear there a year ago owing to changes for which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston. (Mr. Shaw) was responsible, then you will see that the difference is entirely made up by the condition of things existing in the mining industry. That raises very serious thought in the mind of everyone. I know of nothing more heart-rending than the stories which I hear at first hand almost from day to day of collieries being shut down in districts where there is no alternative occupation, and where the closing down of collieries, or a group of collieries, means that the whole area is out of work, or practically out of work.
Whether, as has been suggested, there must be a permanent transfer from one industry to another, or whether there is any likelihood in the near future, or at all, of these collieries being put in work again, I do not know, but I am simply stating the facts and figures that I know. It would be improper, and, indeed, most imprudent if I gave, in the delicate situation in the coal trade at the present time, any view of my own as to what the remedy may be, and I shall certainly do nothing of the kind, but in this Debate on Unemployment, I give these figures in order that the House may know them.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) asked me definitely what were the figures with regard to the Trade Facilities Act, and what was the amount of guarantees now outstanding. The value of guarantees given under the Acts stood, in November, 1923, at just over £38,000,000. In March of this year the total value of the guarantees was just over £55,500,000, and the Committee has still under consideration schemes to the approximate value of £1,000,000. Assuming that these are approved, the total amount of guarantees will, therefore, be something like £56,500,000.
My hon. Friend has not dealt precisely with the question I put to him. I pointed out that we had a return giving all the information with regard to the working of the Trade Facilities Act up to the end of March of this year. I have seen that return, but I wanted to know whether my hon. Friend had any information as to how the Act was operating as regards April and May.
I am sorry to say I have not those figures with me, and I am not sure whether they are available, but if they are I will let the right hon. Gentleman know what they are. If he cares to put down a question when we meet again, I will certainly give them, but I have not them now, and, indeed, I do not know whether we have yet got them.
The hon. Member for East Newcastle (Mr. Connolly) raised a question with regard to reparation ships. Whether there is the importance that he attaches to that transaction, if it be true, I am not quite sure, but what, obviously, is necessary is to get freight. As to whether the hon. Member attaches too much importance to this transaction, I offer no opinion, tout had he given me notice I would have given him all the information I could have got in regard to it. At any rate, it is a matter, not for the Ministry of Labour, but for the Board of Trade, and without notice I am unable to give the information for which the hon. Member asks. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) raised again the question of the grants to Lord St. Davids' Committee. As the hon. Member probably knows, Lord St. Davids' Committee, the Unemployment Grants Committee, has again this year sent out a circular, dated 30th March, which sets out the terms on which assistance will be given. It is too early to say what results will come from that circular, because previous experience has always shown that local authorities do not submit their schemes until later in the year, usually about August or September. Whether, therefore, the response to this circular will be greater or less than, or about the same as, in previous years, I am not yet in a position to say.
I am very well aware of the difficulties, greater in some places than in others, but certainly great in Middlesbrough, as I well know, in which local authorities are placed owing to the very high amount of rates and the great expense which they have already undertaken. But, as my right hon. Friend in the Debate a fortnight ago, in answer to this very question, put in almost the same way by the hon. Gentleman, said:
Surely, a Government is of some use?
I will say exactly what I mean, if the hon. Gentleman will wait a moment. One of the results, undoubtedly, of the stabilisation of Europe and the setting up again of some of the chief of our industrial rivals, was to cause a great and immediate increase in the competitive power of those rivals. Now, the competitive power of our rivals has preceded their consuming power to take our goods, and, until Europe is in a position to take our goods and consume what we produce, I believe now, as I believed and said then, that we are in for a very difficult and serious time in industry in this country. I believe that in the, I hope, not too distant future, when the consuming powers of our customers have again reached something like what they were before, we shall share in the prosperity which will come to them as to us.
No one in the House will raise any objection to the presence of the Minister at a meeting devised to help men to secure appointments who, since the War, have been in the difficulties in which these officers have been, and, although it may be regrettable, I think no one will accuse the right hon. Gentleman of any discourtesy to the House. Rather do we wish that the work on which he is engaged this afternoon will be successful, and that good results will follow from it. My hon. Friend who has just sat down must, however, take responsibility for the Department, and his statement has been to me a profound disappointment. A Government which prided itself that it was going to give stability to the country, which has a crushing majority, comes before the House at the end of seven months and, on one of the greatest problems of the day, admits, in effect, that it, has no policy, states nothing that it has done, but simply leaves us without hope and, apparently, without any prospect of anything being done in connection with the problem. That, bluntly speaking, is the position of affairs. The Government have not even the embryo of a scheme. They are simply in despair; they do not know what to do; they are powerless with their huge majority; they have not a ray of hope anywhere. The condition is gradually growing worse, in spite of stability, and in spite of the tremendous majority which the Government have behind them.
The Minister, we are told, gave certain answers to our questions. I remember very well what those answers were. They were: "We might do this," or " It is possible we shall do that," but there was no definite statement from beginning to end as to anything the Government really intended to do. The hon. Gentleman must face the question some day, and tell the House bluntly either that they acknowledge their helplessness or that they really have schemes which will tide over this very bad time in our industrial situation. The only thing I can see that the Government has done has been to take people off benefits under the Insurance Act, and to throw them either on their own resources or on the boards of guardians. The only positive action I can see redounding to the credit of the Government since they took office has been to take men off benefits and throw them to the wolves. It is a regrettable state of things, but there it is. On the 18th instant there were 164,000 more men unemployed than at this time last year. Surely any Government, after that time of office, and with the power this Government have, ought to be able to make some definite statement instead of perfectly indefinite generalities which lead us nowhere and give us no hope at all.
We are told that so far as mining is concerned, the increase in unemployment during the 12 months has been roughly 115,000, whilst at the same time the miners, who are the hardest working and the bravest of our industrial workers, are getting less than a living wage. I know the miners can never hope to work full time unless all the other big industries are working as well. If the cotton mills and the ironworks are stopped, and the shipbuilding yards are not working, obviously miners will be out of work. The whole ring holds together. If you break a link in the chain, industry will not work properly. Here we have a nation which can produce unlimited wealth, with workers willing to produce it, with millions of capital lying idle, and we sit here and let people be in a state of semi-starvation. I leave hon. Members opposite, who have certain theories as to the state of society, to examine the situation for themselves. If a madman had drawn a picture of industrial life in England, he could not have made a worse sketch than the actual position as it is. It is a picture of such an extraordinary kind that I wish some individualist would attempt to describe how it is that, in the best of all possible states of society, a condition like that can exist. There may or may not be in the industrial life of the country a permanent transfer of some workers to other industries. My opinion is that there will have to be something of that nature. I believe, even when the wheels of industry get turned, with the complications that now exist, there is a danger that some of our industrial workers will eventually have to find their way back to the land. But what is the Government doing to facilitate progress towards that end?
Why not tackle the land?
5.0 P.M.
I leave my right hon. Friend's point of solving the land question—he is the acknowledged authority in the House—and I turn to a much simpler subject. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) has called attention to the fact that there is great scope for the development of agriculture on lines which have already been successfully adopted in Denmark. Denmark has many disadvantages that we do not have and possesses, so far as I can see, no advantage at all that we have not got. She has tremendous difficulties in her transport. You cannot travel many hours in that country without shifting your train on to boats, and carrying it across ferries'. In spite of that, her agricultural produce is found in every town and village in this country. I think the reason can be stated in a few words. Co-operation and science have been adopted, with the results that we see. I suggest to the Government that they might develop the idea of co-operation and science, and help with the credits necessary in order that British agriculture may be developed, not by giving grants and subsidies to continue outworn methods, but by encouraging new and better methods and helping the farmers to adopt them. We are told, with regard to trade facilities guarantees, that the sum has grown, since 1923, by £17,500,000. I want to make an appeal to the Government to adopt a slightly more generous policy with regard to these grants. It is no use continuing this system if the Government expect absolute and rigid security on every proposition brought before them. If all the Government will do is to give guarantees on conditions in which the ordinary bank will always give facilities, there is very little to be done. I think the Government might adopt a little more generous policy, and if necessary take some risk, because it is worth while taking some amount of risk when industry is in the condition it is in now.
We are told that, whatever Government had been in power, the position would have been what it is now. That, of course, is a matter of opinion. I am surprised to find that this Government of all the virtues, and with the power and knowledge that it has, is no better than any other Government, and that if other Governments had been there, the position would have been just the same. I thought this Government, by introducing stability, and by introducing its great capacity, was going to solve the problem that we miserably failed in solving. Instead of that we see the problem aggravated, we see conditions getting worse, and we see absolutely nothing that gives us any indication that anything at all is to be done. We hear nothing of any policy of afforestation. When we left office, we had at any rate, set the machinery going towards an afforestation policy which would have been greater than anything that had been undertaken. We were working hard at a scheme of electrical development which, in our opinion, would not only have permanently enriched the country and made it more capable of competing with others, but would at the same time have increased the amenities in village and rural life and given the workers a better chance of working in the country. Now apparently either nothing is being done or we cannot get to know definitely what is being done. I believe the strongest thing that has been said is that the Government are still pursuing their inquiries. When are the inquiries going to finish? When are we going to see some definite result? Before we had been in office six weeks we were asked to produce definite results. This Government has been in power about seven months with an unlimited majority. Where are its schemes? What is it doing?
Nothing.
Yes, it is taking people off the insurance. But that is all it has done. I do not think Germany's growth is responsible at all for the position in which we find ourselves. We have always said that in the present state of things there is only one quick remedy for unemployment, and that is to get peace in the world and to get the wheels moving. What is this Government doing with regard to getting peace either in the world or in industry? The Prime Minister makes speeches about the workers and the employers getting together, but the actions of the Government prevent these things. Only a few days ago we had a Bill for the ratification of a Convention to which representatives of this country had agreed, but we found the Government united against it. How do you expect working men to work amicably, either with their employers or with the Government, if they do not believe their employers or the Government? The employers as well as the Government in that Bill had agreed with the Convention. Then we find their word broken. There are those of us who are really men of peace, but when we deal with people we want to know whether their word is as good as their bond. If it is not as good as their bond, friendship and peace are simply words without meaning.
We shall seek the earliest possible opportunity of dealing again with this question. I think there will be another opportunity in four or five weeks. We intend to pursue the matter at every available opportunity until the Government makes a definite statement as to its intentions, or frankly admits that it has no intentions at all. We cannot go on as we are. Every week the figures get higher, and the condition of the people becomes worse. Some of these people have not worked for four or five years. A man loses his skill, as well as his self-respect, by continually living on a mere pittance, with not enough money to enjoy himself, simply dragging on an existence, with no apparent hope for the future. That is the state of things in which we now are, in one of the richest countries in the world, with unlimited capacity for producing wealth, and with both capital and labour lying idle. I invite the hon. Gentleman to ask the Minister to go into the question again and try to give us something more definite, even if he cannot give something more hopeful than he has done. In anything the Government can do to give immediate amelioration to the hundreds of thousands of people who are now suffering, they will have no warmer backers in their efforts than there will be on these benches. We shall not try to make party capital out of this question. It is too serious, and it goes too deep. Any proposition which shows a chance of improving the position of these workers will certainly not receive opposition from us, but will be met with thankfulness, and any Measure the Government may propose in order to help them will be received by us as if it were made by us, and as enthusiastically worked for as if it were our own proposal.
Bulgaria
Unemployment is, I suppose, by the admission of all of us, the most important question that can be discussed in this or any other legislative assembly. Hence, we see the crowded benches around us to-day. Much as I intended to make a, speech on this question, I will not attempt to add to the many excellent speeches that have been delivered this afternoon from the benches. Perhaps the House will forgive me if I just mention this old time tag that, if you want to increase useful and productive work, you can do so by making it easier for the worker to obtain access to that storehouse of all the raw materials necessary for production included in the land of this country. Until you tackle that, I am afraid there is little hope for the unemployed, and while the present Government is in power I think there is little hope of that problem being tackled.
I rise to raise a matter of minor importance as far as this country is concerned, but of some importance to the international movement which we on these benches represent and, perhaps, of some personal importance to myself. Recently, I and two of my colleagues went to Bulgaria. We arrived in Bulgaria at a critical period, two days after the atrocious bomb outrage in the cathedral in Sofia. We were there three days. We made such inquiries as we could into the position of affairs in Bulgaria, and on our return I wrote certain articles and we issued a report to the Press of what was going on there. That report and those articles must have been displeasing to the present Government in power in Bulgaria. They immediately issued statements concerning our visit which it behoves us, as Members of the British House of Commons, to take notice of in the interests of this august body.
They allege, more or less openly, that we, Members of the British House of Commons, had gone to Sofia with the connivance of the Soviet Government of Russia, and that we were to be there at the moment of revolution. I do not think that any Member of this House would attach much importance to wild allegations of that sort, but they received some sort of notice in some of the inferior organs of the Press. I should like to take this, the earliest opportunity, of saying that I went out there without the slightest communication of any kind or sort with any Soviet or any Communist organisation whatsoever. We went out after a meeting which members of our party who are interested held upstairs, a meeting which was held as a result of questions asked in this House, and of letters we had received from various partisans in Bulgaria. I went out entirely at my own expense, and I resent, not so much for myself as for the reputation of the House of Commons, the suggestion that we were the agents of an alien Government in what we did.
They have also suggested that our report was biased and inaccurate. It was the business of the Government to suggest that. It is difficult to refute that by chapter and verse. As an alien in a foreign country, and ignorant of the language, it is difficult to get first-hand information at any time of what is going on in that country; but it was more particularly difficult when you consider that we arrived just at a moment when those people to whom we should have gone for information were either in gaol or had been assassinated or were unlikely to welcome a visit from ourselves which might draw attention to their existence I do not think that our visit suffered materially on that account. We did get the very best assistance and information that any Members of this House could have got in Sofia. I do not propose to give the names of any of the people who helped us. They were men whom I would trust one hundred times rather than I would trust the present Bulgarian Government. While not giving away their names I will say this, that where those names are known they would secure the confidence, the approval and the trust of the people of this country, on both sides of the House.
It is difficult to decide exactly what is going on in Bulgaria to-day, but of this we can be very sure, that after that atrocious outrage reprisals necessarily followed. Every act of violence, whether it be by a Government in power or by a would-be Government temporarily out of power, inevitably leads to further atrocities and further reprisals. That has been a commonplace of history ever since the War. We have seen it in Russia, in Hungary and in every country where revolution has taken place. Assassination leads inevitably to assassination. I am not here as a judge of the present Bulgarian Government, but I am here as one who believes that we in this country have certain responsibilities towards the Bulgarian people. Under the Treaty of Neuilly we are in a sense, and in some degree, responsible for the methods taken by the Government of Bulgaria for the good being of the people of Bulgaria. Therefore, it is only right that we in this House should consider what can be done to put things right.
I am not concerned whether there be 250 murders, as we estimate in our report, or whether there be 15 as suggested to me the other day by General Kalfoff, the Bulgarian Minister of Foreign Affairs. I noticed to-day that the "Manchester Guardian" correspondent there, who has had plenty of time to come to his conclusions, represents the murders and assassinations that have taken place since the outrage as countless all over Bulgaria. I am not concerned with the number, but with the fact that it is the duty of our Government to use its influence in Sofia to put a stop to this condition of things, in the interests not only of the people who are at present being persecuted in Bulgaria, but in the interests of the whole of the Bulgarian people. You cannot stop what happened in the Cathedral of Sofia by reprisals any more than you can stop the murders that went on in Ireland by Black and Tannery. We have to have an appeasement sometime and the sooner that appeasement comes about the better for Bulgaria.
The "Manchester Guardian" representative quoted an anonymous authority, who pointed out that all the trials and executions that have taken place have not really got criminals. Most of those executed have had very slight connection, if any, with the crime at Sofia, but every one of them has relations, and if you execute one man, immediately his brothers and cousins in Bulgaria make up their minds that they will execute somebody in reply. It is this blood feud business which is causing the ruin of Bulgaria to-day. Let us recollect that the Bulgarian Government itself started the blood feud. It is too often forgotten that the Tzankoff Government, which came into power by the murder of its predecessors, the murder of Stambulisky, that has kept its power by terror under cover of a series of political assassinations, has a terrible history, and the best thing that could happen to Bulgaria would be that it should have a new Government which might come into power without assassination and terrorism, a new Government based on a new election.
Let us recollect this also. Stambulisky, much as he is attacked to-day by his successors, did not go in for assassination. He was in gaol for three years as the friend of the Allies during the War, because he opposed Bulgaria fighting against us. At the termination of the War he came out of prison and became Prime Minister. His predecessors were not assassinated. I believe that they fled from Bulgaria, but, at any rate, they are alive. Assassination began when the Tzankoff Government made their coup d'état and murdered its predecessors. The people who began that sort of thing must be the first people to put an end to it in their own interest as well as in the interest of Bulgaria.
What can we do to bring about that most desirable appeasement of the blood feud? In the first place I think that we should make it quite clear that the additional troops, volunteers, who are really Fascisti, who have been armed since the Sofia outrage, those 13,000 additional troops created to deal with the Bolshevist terror and the Bolshevist rising, which seem to have existed almost entirely in the imagination of the Government and in the documents of the Berlin forgery establishment, these troops who have had no risings to put down, but merely men to arrest for murder, should be disbanded at the date laid down by the Allied Powers when they very reluctantly sanctioned their enrolment. That date is the 31st of May, three days from now, and I hope that our Government will see that under no excuse whatever is that army allowed to continue in existence and to control the affairs of Bulgaria.
Stambulisky's unpopularity was caused largely because he insisted on carrying out to the letter the Treaty of Neuilly and disbanding the Bulgarian Army, thereby arousing against himself the hostility of the ex-officers and ex-noncommissioned officers of that army. It is these ex-officers and ex-non-commissioned officers who have now got back their arms in Bulgaria, and the sooner we insist upon the successors of Stambulisky following his good example in that respect and getting rid of these armed detachments the better it will be not only for Bulgaria but for the chances of Bulgarian stability and the carrying out of the reparations clauses of the Treaty of Neuilly. It has sometimes been said that in dealing with Bulgaria I am not so much speaking for the Labour party as speaking for myself. I would in this connection like to read a telegram which I have just received from Birmingham:
Those who call themselves Communists are just the old pro-Russian party, people who regard Russia, whether under the Tsar or the Soviet, as the elder brother of the Bulgarian people, speaking their language, understanding their aims and sympathising with them against the Greeks and Serbs; and as one important personage said to me, the people who call themselves Social Democrats in Bulgaria are a purely bourgeois party. It is a party name and is nothing to go by. The divisions of the Bulgarian people are simply the "ins" and the "outs," assassinating each other, complicated by the fact that the Macedonian refugee movement, which is also split into two rival assassinating bodies, renders aid to each indiscriminately.
That being so, I think we can rightly urge His Majesty's Government, in the first place, to refuse any extension of the terms of the enlistment of these men; in the second place, to ask that our Minister may be permitted to visit the prisons in order to see the conditions that prevail in them, in the interests of humanity, and, in the third place, that our Minister should make constant representations in favour of clemency and a return to civil order. I remember the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria (M. Tzankoff) telling me with tears in his eyes how Lord Curzon, when he was at the Foreign Office, saved the Bulgarian leaders of the Opposition from being assassinated by Stambulisky. To do Stambulisky justice, I do not believe that he had the slightest intention of assassinating them at all, but at least Lord Curzon spoke to Stambulisky, and the Opposition was saved. That is the belief in Bulgaria. And I ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite to use the great prestige and power of the British Empire to do an equally good turn now to those half innocent and half guilty persons who are in gaol and who have so far survived these massacres and reprisals.
I should like to support the plea which the right hon. Gentleman has just made to bring about an appeasement of the situation in Bulgaria. I am not going to attempt to apportion the blame for the extraordinary situation that has prevailed in Bulgaria for the last five or six years, the last aspect of which took place on 16th April last, when in the church of St. Sophia 150 people were killed outright and 200 seriously wounded. The event took place at too great a distance for anyone to be in a position to pass a just judgment as to who are the responsible parties, but I think we have a right to ask our Government, which with its Allies was responsible for the Treaty of Neuilly, under which Bulgaria has been governed since the War, to fulfil the obligations they entered into when they imposed that Treaty upon Bulgaria.
What in a word were these obligations? I will mention one. Among the obligations which we with the Allies undertook under the Treaty of Neuilly was to see that the minorities in the transferred territories, handed over partly to the Serbs, partly to the Rumanians, should have justice done to them. We undertook to see that the inhabitants of the transferred regious in Macedonia, in the Dobrudja, and in Greece, the properties they possessed and the homes they lived in, should be protected. We undertook to see that the people who entered the new Governments of Serbia, Greece and Rumania should have their civil liberties, their political rights, their own language, their own education in their schools, and the right to their own religion. We know as a matter of simple fact that none of these conditions have been fulfilled. We know, as a consequence of these obligations not being fulfilled, that the Bulgarians transferred under the Treaty of Neuilly have been fleeing from the regions in which they have lived for generations as people flee from a plague. At the present moment, and for the last four years, Bulgaria has had to contend with a refugee population of about 600,000. In Sofia itself, which is a town of less than 200,000 inhabitants, there has been for the last two years a refugee population of 60,000 to be accommodated. The peasants from Macedonia, the peasants from the Dobrudja, have to be accommodated.
I ask that our Government and its Allies should see that the conditions of the Treaty of Neuilly are carried out. Has anyone any doubt that when a peasant population fly as refugees from their ancient homes that they do not carry with them a sense of enraged injustice, from which all kinds of other evils flow? If we want to get any appeasement of the situation justice must be done to the people of Bulgaria; something must be done to implement our obligations. I therefore appeal to the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Foreign Office to do all that can be done by this Government, and by the Governments of other countries who are our Allies in the Treaty of Neuilly, to bring about some immediate action between the Governments of Greece, Bulgaria and Jugo-Slavia in order to get a settlement of this question. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he might try to get the Allies to offer Bulgaria some little of the assistance which they have been giving to almost every country in Europe since the War; something in the nature of a modest financial loan in order to assist Bulgaria in the tremendous difficult economic situation in which she finds herself.
Members of the House should recollect that Bulgaria has been desolated by war, not since 1914, but since 1912. The first Balkan War took place in 1912. It was closely followed by the second Balkan War, and in 1914 by the Great War. It is also worth while recollecting that so far as the Great War is concerned the responsibility for Bulgaria entering it on the side of the Central Powers was not the responsibility of the people of Bulgaria. It was the act of the Dynasty, against the protests of her leading public men. The Bulgarian people were not responsible for Bulgaria entering the War on the side of the Central Powers. She has received no financial assistance. That assistance has been given to other enemy countries. It has been given to Hungary and to Austria. It has been given to Serbia, to Roumania and to Greece; but nothing has been done for Bulgaria. I, therefore, ask that our Government will consider, in the appeasement of Bulgaria, not only the fulfilment of the Treaties, but some financial assistance.
The hon. Gentleman who was just spoken dealt with rather a different point from that which was brought forward by the right hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). His reference was mainly to the minority Treaties, as they are called, the attempts to reserve and safeguard the rights of the minorities under the Treaty of Peace. He rather light-heartedly suggested that the policy of the Government should be to bring about, for humanitarian purposes, a complete agreement between the various Balkan States. I think that if he had been for a short time in command of official information from all parts of Europe he would not have shown quite so much confidence as to the possibility of bringing about complete accord on matters of that sort among those States. But I quite agree with him that, if that could be done, it would be a wholly desirable thing, and I think I may say that everything that is possible, as far as we can see what is possible, is being done to implement the Treaties in all respects, certainly not least in regard to the rights of the minorities under this Treaty. I am sure that he will understand that it is not by any means an easy thing for any Government to enforce Clauses, or to see that Clauses of that sort are enforced, in a country in which, now that peace has been restored, we have no rights of interference outside the Treaty. I can only assure him that such steps as can be taken in order, first of all, to inform ourselves on the facts—
You undertook in the Treaties to preserve those rights for these people.
Yes, I know; but it is not always very easy to obtain, first of all, accurate information as to how far Clauses are or are not being observed, and, even if we satisfy ourselves that they are not in all respects being observed, it is not a very easy matter to take sufficient steps to enforce them. All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the Government certainly are not negligent in the matter. There is, perhaps, no part of their duty to which they are more alive than the necessity for seeing, so far as that is possible, that these Clauses of the Treaty are observed. The right hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme referred to a visit which he and one or two of his friends have recently paid to Bulgaria. He took the occasion, as he was well entitled to do, to repudiate certain insinuations which he says have been made in Bulgaria—I presume in the Bulgarian Press—with regard to that visit. I am certain that it was entirely unnecessary for him to assure this House that he went there in an entirely independent position, and it is ludicrous to anyone in this House that the suggestion should have been made that he went there as the agent of an alien Government. We do not require that assurance.
The right hon. Gentleman also complained that the account which he and his friends have given of that visit on their return has been spoken of in Bulgaria as biased and inaccurate. Of course, I cannot speak with the same assurance in regard to that charge against the right hon. Gentleman as I can with regard to the other. I really do not know to what extent the account which he has given is strictly impartial and strictly accurate. That is one of our difficulties. It is impossible often to get accurate and thoroughly trustworthy information. I think it is quite possible that the right hon. Gentleman has allowed some inaccuracies to creep into the report which he has given. After all, that is not a very damaging charge, and it is one to which most of us at some time or other lay ourselves open. If the right hon. Gentleman had been, not an ex-Cabinet Minister, but still a Cabinet Minister of the British Government, possibly he would not have allowed himself quite so much latitude in the observations that he has made, especially with regard to the Government now in Bulgaria. I am not quite certain that all that he has said, whether accurate or inaccurate, has really smoothed over a very difficult situation. But I am not going to make any complaint of that. When the right hon. Gentleman says that we have definite responsibilities to the Bulgarian people, while I do not deny that altogether as a general proposition, I am inclined to demur to it until I know to what extent we are alleged to have responsibilities to the Bulgarian people. That we have responsibilities, as the last speaker pointed out, under the Treaties, of course cannot be denied—to the extent of the Treaties. But I think it would be a very dangerous doctrine and a very inconvenient doctrine if it were to be accepted, without very rigid limitations and definitions, that we are to be responsible for the good government of the Bulgarian people. Really, it appeared to me that the right hon. Gentleman in his observations almost went to that extent.
I think that the proper attitude for the British Government to take up is that, subject to the obligation imposed upon them as a signatory to the Treaty, their duty is non-interference in the internal affairs of Bulgaria, unless and until the time comes, if it does come, to which the hon. Member referred, when Bulgaria may be asking for some assistance from us or from others. That, of course, might give us an opportunity of saying, "If you want economic or other assistance from Great Britain you will require the warm sympathy of our people." We might then use some stronger influence than we can use at present on the Government of that country. When the right hon. Gentleman said specifically that we ought to use our influence to put a stop to the murders which he says are going on there, I can only reply that we do so. We use every possible influence, always, of course, bearing in mind the delicacy of an attempt to interfere with the internal government of that country. Bearing that in mind, I do not think we have been sparing in our attempt to use influence. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the action of Lord Curzon some years ago. I remember very well, when I was Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office in 1922, the advice which Lord Curzon at that time gave to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria when on a visit to this country. I think if I were in a position to quote the advice then given by Lord Curzon he would find that it covered almost precisely the points which the right hon. Gentleman himself has mentioned this afternoon as advice that should be given to the Bulgarian Government.
That was advice given to the then Government.
It was advice given to the present Foreign Minister, and I may say that during the much more recent visit of the same statesman to this country he got what was, practically, exactly the same advice from my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Therefore we have, as far as it is legitimate to do so, used every possible influence to promote appeasement, to advise moderation and to express the strong indignation and disapproval which is universal among Englishmen at, shall I say, too drastic methods—I do not want to use language which would be offensive to a foreign Government—at political methods which we should never dream of either pursuing or sanctioning in this country. We have used our influence and we shall continue to use our influence in every possible respect to inculcate moderation of that sort. I am not quite certain that I would agree with the right hon. Gentleman in saying that the present Government started a series of feuds though I agree with him as to the existence of those feuds and the methods by which they are pursued. I fancy myself if we could trace the origin of them we would have to go further back than the murder of M. Stambulisky. That is really the great difficulty we have in all these respects, and it is not confined to Bulgaria, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. We have there a country in which private vendetta is rife and where armed brigandage is rife. There is a great deal of assassination and it is very difficult to be sure whether a particular assassination is the result of some private vendetta or whether it is the work of a political organisation or a secret society, or what it is. Therefore when the right hon. Gentleman talks as he did rather severely of the political methods of a particular political party, I would suggest to him caution in accepting even the most apparently trustworthy accounts which he may have received during his visit of three days to Bulgaria, and I would recommend him to agree with me that it is extremely difficult to trace back to their proper source these terrible acts of violence which are making it almost impossible to carry on any decent government in that country.
The right hon. Gentleman ended his speech by asking the question: What can we do? In answer to his own question he put to me three main steps that -we could take. The first was in regard to the additional troops which are to be disbanded by 31st May. I will not stop to inquire how far he was justified in calling those additional troops Fascisti. It seemed to me a little inconsistent with his own perfectly accurate statement later on that practically the whole of the Bulgarian population were peasantry on the land and not quite the class from which I should expect Fascisti to be drawn, but that is neither here nor there. What I am anxious to tell the right hon. Gentleman is that His Majesty's Government are just as determined as he is that the temporary enlistment of these troops shall be adhered to, and the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria when he visited my right hon. Friend at the Foreign Office a few days ago was given no encouragement whatever to think that that time could be extended, and I think he was informed categorically that the date originally fixed as necessary for disbandment would be adhered to and His Majesty's Government had given instructions to that effect in the proper quarters.
I think I have already dealt in general terms with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions that we should make representations in favour of clemency. That we have done constantly. I again go back to the time of Lord Curzon, and I daresay it was done before then, but I can only speak personally for that period. Lord Curzon felt most strongly on the point of the absolute necessity of a policy of clemency and indemnity. He laid great stress upon the policy of appeasement, of freedom of election, and of getting rid, as far as possible, of this terrible chain of vendettas, first on one-side and then on the other. As a possible means towards that end, he pressed at that time upon the Bulgarian Government the advisability of bringing representatives of all the different constitutional parties in the country, if possible, into a national government.
I may be allowed to say that I had myself an opportunity of speaking to M. Kalfoff the other day in the same connection. I said that we in this country were inclined to judge of a crisis in a foreign country by the light of our own experience, and I referred to the fact that, although on the eve of the outbreak of the War, there probably never was a time in this country when the relations between the political parties were more strained or the feeling between them more bitter, yet in the face of the great crisis of the War all parties rallied to the Government, and within a very short time all parties were represented in the Government which continued during the War, and which might reasonably be called a national Government. I said I was sure there were many people in this country who, looking at the terrible crisis through which Bulgaria is now passing, as shown by the outrage in the cathedral and the attempt on the life of the King, were inclined to believe that a procedure something like our own might be the remedy. I said that although, of course, we had neither the right nor the desire to interfere in any way with the internal affairs of a friendly nation, the British people looked with the greatest possible sympathy on the difficulties of Bulgaria, and were inclined to think that the crisis might be surmounted by a procedure something like that which we adopted in the crisis of the War. I think I have now answered all the points which were put to me by the right hon. Gentleman, and I will only say in conclusion that I am a little surprised and very pleased to find that, at all events upon this point, there is very little difference between the attitude which he has put before the House as the representative of the Labour party and the policy which is, in fact, being pursued, and which will be pursued, by His Majesty's present Government.
Scottish Herring Fisheries
6.0 P.M.
I am sure the House will join with me in thanking the right hon. Gentleman who raised this matter for the interesting Debate which has taken place and for the extremely interesting statement which he has elicited from the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I think in every quarter of the House it will be agreed that we have had a satisfactory statement of the policy which is being pursued in this matter, and I think it is one which will commend the support of all parties in this House. I will, however, revert, if I may, for a few minutes to the question which we were discussing before, the question of unemployment insurance, as it affects a very important section of the community in Scotland, the Scottish herring fishery workers. The Scottish herring industry has been in a very serious state of depression, and that applies not only to the herring fishery but to the white fishery too. I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is not here, but I know that he has been here all the afternoon, and the hon. and learned Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. F. C. Thomson) is here and has promised to convey my representations to the Parliamentary Secretary. The winter fishing in the industry has been extremely bad, and the summer fishing is late in starting. There is a glut of cured herrings on the market, and the hole outlook is one of gloom. In these circumstances we are told that there has been a decision by the referee that the seasonal workers engaged in the fishing industry are not to be entitled to unemployment benefit unless they have 10 months' contributions to their credit. This industry has had a great deal to contend with, and we had assurances at the last Election that a real interest would be taken in it and a real effort made to put it on its feet. It is an important industry, and there are scores of thousands of Scottish men and women engaged in that industry, who rendered yeoman service during the War.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, from Scotland in particular, are very fond of talking about the influx of Poles and Russians and Irish into Scotland, filling up the place's of Scottish men and women, and about the native stock being forced to go across the seas. I agree there is a great deal in that argument. It is a very serious factor that we have got to face in Scotland at the present time. Surely one way to prevent this alien invasion is to make it possible for people who are in Scotland at the present time to earn their living by putting their industries on a satisfactory footing, by helping them to establish themselves, and by tiding them over the crisis which affects not only the fishing industry, but other national industries in Scotland as well as other parts of the country.
I am not going to repeat the speech which I made on unemployment in the Highlands some few weeks ago. Very little has been done for unemployment, and we cannot get the assistance we want for our harbours. The Government have suspended, instead of improving as I urged them to do, the scheme of the late Socialist Government for assisting these herring fishermen to provide themselves with nets, and to replace their damaged gear. Instead of doing that, the Government are now making it worse for the industry by making it harder for these seasonal workers—and they are all seasonal in the industry because there is a winter and a summer herring fishery— to get the unemployment benefit towards which they contribute.
Really serious alarm and apprehension is being caused in the fishing towns along the coast of Scotland. The Wick Town Council met on Monday last and passed a resolution strongly protesting against the injustice of withholding unemployment benefit from the fish workers. I am informed that the recent decision of the referee is that seasonal workers must have 10 months' contributions before they qualify for extended benefit, and that, in view of that provision, they cannot possibly qualify. Further, benefit is now being withheld from workers who fail to have 20 stamps on their books in any one insurance year. As it happens, it works out in the fishing industry that the average number of stamps would be about 18 or 19. It falls just below the 20, and it would hit an enormous number of these seasonal fish workers at Scottish fishing ports. I would, therefore urge the hon. and learned Member for South Aberdeen to convey his representations to the Minister of Labour and to see if something cannot be done to meet the exceptionally hard case of the fish workers engaged in this struggling and important industry.
As representing a district in which fishing is one of the chief industries, I would like to reinforce what my hon. and gallant Friend has so admirably said. I agree with everything that he has said, and I hope that the Government, in seeking to alleviate the burdens which are falling upon industry, will not attempt to do it by driving people off the register of those entitled to benefit, in order to produce what appears to be a lightening of a load, but is really no lightening of the load at all. I hope that in this case, which is one of the strongest cases, no such attempt will be made. It only transfers the burden from the central fund to the rates, when you discourage people who are entitled to benefit from drawing it. I hope these views will be conveyed to the Minister of Labour.
Communist Conference (Glasgow)
I want to raise a matter which has not been mentioned to-day, and to apologise to the House for not having given any intimation on it. I was under the impression that the business indicated would monopolise the time of the House up to the adjournment at seven o'clock. The matter I wish to raise is, however, one of considerable importance, and the fact that the Prime Minister is present is my justification for raising it now. It is a matter of very great urgency, and arises out of the state- ment made by the Home Secretary to-day at Question Time, namely, the decision of the Government to exclude from this country certain fraternal delegates who were proposing to attend a conference in the City of Glasgow as fraternal delegates from a corresponding Communist organisation in Germany. It seems tome that that decision marks a very serious turn, in the attitude of Great Britain towards political freedom in this country. The traditions of this country with reference to freedom of political thought have been very great indeed, and in pre-War days Britain was regarded as a place where the utmost freedom existed for the most extreme political views. This House, probably for the first time in the history of our country, are definitely excluding these people from. Great Britain merely on the grounds of the political opinion that they hold.
It is an extraordinarily contradictory thing to me, in view of the fact that the conference that these people are being excluded from is regarded in this country as perfectly legitimate and constitutional. No attempt has been made to prevent the assembling of the conference in the City of Glasgow. It would take place there, it would express even perhaps some more extreme views than are usually expressed in this House—though I question whether, after all, that will be so—but the conference will take place, there will be no serious interference of any description; the police of the city regard the whole thing as perfectly harmless. Yet when one or two representatives from foreign countries ask to be present at this perfectly legal conference, the Home Secretary tells us that, after full consultation with the Cabinet, by a Cabinet decision, they have decided to prevent these people from coming here because they are the preachers of subversive doctrines in their own country. It seems an extraordinary thing, when the rulers of our country can enter into an alliance-with the rulers of Germany to prevent the workers of these two countries— certain representative sections of the working-class movement of the two countries—meeting together in a friendly conference: this at a time when the relations between the employing classes of the two countries seem to be more friendly than ever they have been. This, too, is at a time when our employers of labour are prepared to go to Germany and to resume more intimate business relationships than existed before the War. This is at a time, I say, when the employers of labour in this country are prepared to go to Germany to purchase ships which, normally, in pre-War days, were purchased in their own land. When the relationships between the two ruling classes of the two countries seem to be more harmonious than ever, it seems an extraordinarily unfair action to prevent the workers of the two countries meeting together in conference.
It seems to me particularly objectionable in regard to a country whose President was a great power in the German Army, who was congratulated by this House and the Government, as I understand, on his election as President of the Republic. You congratulated the leader of your late enemies on his accession to power in that land, and you refuse to admit to this country men and women who, during the Great War, protested in Germany against the wrongness and the brutality of the war that Germany was waging against this country. I ask the Prime Minister if he cannot see his way to relax the Regulations. I understand that there are only two or three persons altogether involved. The chief of the Glasgow City Police, I am perfectly confident, is not a member of my political party, but a member of the political party of the Prime Minister. The Chief of Police of the City of Glasgow would, I am quite sure, give his personal guarantee that nothing will happen in that city through the presence of these foreign visitors that will endanger in any way either the- safety of the realm or the security of His Majesty's Government. It is trivial to destroy a tradition of political liberty in the face of absolutely no danger whatever to the safety, either of the State or of the capitalist system of society or the right hon. Gentleman's Government. It will be deeply resented throughout this country and throughout Europe by a great body of working men and women who are not in political sympathy with the particular political theory that those men hold, but who do believe that working-class representatives should have as great liberty in this country as the representatives of any other class. We have had German business men coming over here to attend conferences. We have had German politicians coming over here to attend conferences. We have had foreign Royalties of all descriptions coming into the country from ex-enemy countries and ex-Allied countries. Is it. only the representatives of working-class organisations that are to be excluded?: Somebody in the House to-day referred to these people as undesirable aliens. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] An, hon. Member says "Hear, hear!" I know, of course, that some hon. Members of this House think that any member of the working classes is an undesirable person. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!"] Well, there is absolutely nothing else against these people except that they are representatives of the working class. [HON. MEMBERS: "They are not of the working class at all!"] They are absolutely representative of the working class. "An undesirable alien" is a certain definition in the law courts of this country. An undesirable alien is a person-who has been convicted of some crime, some felony, and one ought not to apply that term to men simply because they belong to a foreign country and are members of the working class and hold an extreme view as to how the working class can achieve political and economic freedom.
Remember, this is a legitimate theory for working people to hold. If the right hon. Gentleman had listened, as I did, to the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour with reference to the Government's inability to solve unemployment inside a capitalist system of society, if he had listened to the hopelessness that ran through the speeches of every Member who dealt with the question of unemployment to-day, he would have been impressed by the fact that through ordinary constitutional machinery, through ordinary Parliamentary methods, there is absolutely no hope of the working classes of this country obtaining relief from their poverty. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour told us, in so many words, that, the only way in which the working classes of this country could achieve a decent standard of life some time in the dim and distant future, a future time to which he was not prepared to place a date, was for all the people of foreign countries to be raised on to a higher standard of living. He said, quite plainly, that if the purchasing power of foreign countries were increased and the wage-earning power of our own country were reduced, that then there would be hope for our industry getting on a lively and solid foundation. That was the whole burden of his argument. He told us that the purchasing power of European countries must be increased, and the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) told us that our workers had to work longer hours and get reduced wages for doing it. Is that a message of hope to the working class of this country I Is it surprising that there are men and women in our country, and in other countries in Europe, who, faced with that message of hopelessness, turn from Parliamentary and constitutional methods and say, "Damn them! Damn these institutions! They have brought no help to us in the past, and the people who run them to-day can hold out no hope for us in the future. Let us turn to other methods, methods which may be more drastic, which may cause more suffering, but which hold out some hope of betterness in the future"?
As one of my hon. Friends said this afternoon, in a speech which I think was outstanding amongst the speeches of today, and who represents one of the Lanarkshire Divisions, mankind has somehow or other a great vitality, and humanity refuses always to be permanently kept down in the gutter. In the face of a world offering great opportunities and obviously great power to produce wealth, mankind is the driving force that runs through humanity, and it will refuse for ever subjection to conditions that are unnecessary; and if an opportunity is not given through the constitutional machinery of the country for the proper expression of legitimate demands, and the solution of the problems that affect these working men and women, then human nature bursts through all the conventions and breaks the constitutional machine, and gets what it is after by more direct methods under those circumstances. It is a legitimate view for a minority of this country to take that Parliamentary machinery is of no use, and that more drastic methods should be adopted.
I think they have a right to hold that view and consider how best they can apply their principles to human affairs, and I suggest to the Home Secretary that he is not doing a good thing for this House of Commons or for constitutional progress in the world when he tries to stifle this particular type of thought when he ought to give it more freedom and full liberty, and allow it to be put into the pool of common thought, there to take its just and legitimate place. This is the despised minority which the Home Secretary proposes to crush, and the right hon. Gentleman is merely trying to shut its mouth by force, because that is all that exclusion means. He is doing this instead of trying to answer their arguments by reason. If there is one thing that the history of this country and the history of the world proves it is that you cannot stifle a minority by repressive measures.
I suggest to the Prime Minister that in view of these things and the history of this House and this country, in view of the very smallest of the concession that is asked, and in view of the fact that he does not want to create an impression that he is here to represent not a class— if there is one thing the Prime Minister has attempted to carry out since he came into power it is the view that he is not here representing a class but representing the nation—if he wants to follow that view, he should reconsider with the Home Secretary this Regulation, and admit these men into conference with the Communists of this country. I know a lot of hon. Members sitting behind the Prime Minister consider these men are frightful desperadoes who would stick at nothing, and would even destroy human life, but I happen, as one associated with them, to know that they are much the same kind of men as the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, with very much the same kind of character and very much the same kind of desire to achieve a decent change in the social system. Why should you endeavour, by using a power that is unnecessary, by using a steam hammer to crack a nut, to prevent these men from meeting together and conferring, as I am sure they will confer, to the benefit of this country and of the whole of the working classes?
I desire very briefly to support the eloquent appeal of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Surely, in this country, where we pride ourselves on a long political tradition, the least that those of any political party can do is to try to find out and understand to the best of their ability the views which are held by other political parties and other people who are regarding the problems of this country. There is only one thing, in my opinion, which would justify the embargo the Home Secretary proposes to place upon these delegates, and that would be if the Communist party were a party which believed in individual assassination. Nobody who has studied the Communist programme, who has taken the trouble to hear a Communist speaker, or to read any outline of the policy of the Communist party, can believe for a moment that that is the case, and, in the circumstances, it seems to me not only a very mean and shabby thing to prohibit these delegates coming in, but, from the point of view of Conservatism or constitutional government a very ridiculous thing.
What is going to happen to-morrow morning when the news goes out to the country that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, and the Government which he represents, are so frightened of the Communist party that they refuse to allow them ordinary reasonable facilities for holding their national and international conference? I will tell the House what is going to happen. All the militant working classes in this country, the working classes who, rightly or wrongly, are thoroughly dissatisfied with and thoroughly up against the order of society which right hon. Gentlemen opposite represent, are going to say, "The Communist party must be the party which we should join, which we should help, which we should work for and which we should do our best to assist, because, obviously, it is the only party that the present Government is afraid of." That is the only thing you are going to do by interfering with the Communist party and their programme, by treating our fellow-citizens who hold Communist views as outcasts, by referring to them in the objectionable way, that makes one's blood boil, in which they are sometimes referred to in this House —not by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, I admit, but by some of those who sit behind them. You do nothing except assist them.
I would ask the Prime Minister, especially, because he professes to be, and I believe he is, sincerely anxious to avoid class conflict in this country of an acute kind, to remember that the young workers who are growing up to-day, embittered almost before they leave school by the conditions under which they grow up, are almost bound to be rebels. It is not a question of agitation, it is not a question of speakers stirring up sedition; it is the fact that, under the conditions in which they live and in which they come out into the world at the present time, they are bound to be rebellious, they are bound to be up against the present system, they are bound by force of economic circumstances to start to think how they can make the country better for themselves and their fellows.
They are going to be faced by the propaganda which is spread by all parties in this House. They are going to be faced by the doctrine of the Communist party, in which I, personally, have no more belief than hon. Members on the benches opposite. They are going to have all these policies in front of them. I have studied the programme of the Communist party. For many months I thought hard whether I should be in their ranks or in the ranks of the party in which I now find myself. If you are going to say deliberately that, while the constitutional Labour movement, because it is so strong that it cannot be treated as the Communist party is treated—although, possibly, some of the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman would like it to be so treated—while, because it is so strong that it can look after itself and gets treated with courtesy and reason and moderation, the Communist party is treated as an outcast and boycotted in every respect, you are going to drive a tremendous number of the most militant of the younger workers into the very party whose doctrines you profess to believe to be dangerous to the country. I believe they are. I believe the policy advocated by the Communist party would be just as destructive as the lack of policy advocated by the party opposite. I appeal most earnestly to the Government not to go out of their way to act as recruiting agents for a party in which they do not believe, but to exercise a little discretion and a little of the milk of human kindness. These people have a perfectly understandable and perfectly reasonable policy. They have the right to believe in it and to work for it. You and I, who do not believe in it have the right to oppose it by argument and propaganda and writing, but we have no right to use our superior strength and numbers to impose restrictions upon them which we do not believe should be imposed upon ourselves.
The Debate this afternoon will have served one useful purpose if only for the fact that it again draws attention to the alliance which exists between hon. Members on the other side of the House and the revolutionary caucus at Moscow. [ Interruption. ] The last two speeches indicate, if, indeed, further indication be necessary, that hon. Members opposite, even those who are not definitely in accord with the views of Moscow, are, at least, prepared to tolerate those views. They do not, in fact, see any objection—
We tolerate your views, but we do not agree with you.
Hon. Members opposite, who do not in fact endorse every principle of Moscow, are at least prepared for these views to be preached and spread throughout this country, knowing, as they do, that the ultimate end of the whole of that activity is to bring red ruin throughout this Realm and throughout the Empire of which the country is the centre. I do not want to enter into the merits of what hon. Members opposite and their friends from Moscow desire to discuss in Glasgow. It may well be that no disorder will take place. On this side of the House, at any rate, and I believe throughout the country, the action of the Home Secretary will be overwhelmingly endorsed by public opinion. The time has long gone by when these irresponsible persons, who are neither working men nor representatives of the working classes, should be allowed to commit in this country the horrible deeds whereby they have ruined Russia. I hope the Government will not hesitate to enforce whatever measures may be necessary to deport such of these people as may even now be in the country.
It happens that the conference which these delegates are to be kept from attending is to be held in my constituency. These people represent a, fair body of opinion both in this country and abroad. In 1922 I fought the seat in which this conference is to be held, and I had to fight, amongst others, a representative of what might be termed the boldest form of Communism and the representative of the historic Liberal party polled a little over 1,000 votes. The representative of the most extreme form of Communism, a man who was honoured above all men, a really great man, who had been times without number in gaol, polled four times the votes of the Liberal and fully 50 per cent. of the votes polled by the Conservative candidate. He polled well over 4,000 votes. He was more extreme than the delegates who are asking to attend this conference. The last speaker denounced it because it brought red ruin in Russia. I do not accept the view that the new order has brought ruin in Russia, but even if it has, what caused the Bolsheviks to control Russia but the old repression practised by the Tzar? You cannot beat these people by mere suppression. Some of them have already suffered and some will suffer again. The Home Secretary talks about danger. There are 40 different families up one tenement close near where that conference is to be held and every day there is far more danger to your social order there than is to be feared from the people who are coming here to preach that doctrine. The right hon. Gentleman ought to go and see the place. He will find scope for his energy and his talent.
I can see the logic of the position. All foreigners are bad. We must build up not only a tariff wall regarding goods but a tariff wall regarding all kinds of individuals, rich and poor alike. While we condemned the new President of the German Republic and all his associates who held high office, the only man about whom you could hear a single word of praise from Press, pulpit or platform was Karl Liebknecht, and he was an associate of these people. We are going to debar the associates of that great man Lenin from coming here. It is not merely a question of debarring any of these men from entering the country, but it is an issue as to debarring a certain selected class with whom you happen to disagree and whom you dislike. I do not think that these people, if they were admitted, would bring anything about, either to-day or to-morrow, in the shape of social upheaval. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), who, however much you may dislike his views, you can scarcely but admire his personal character, holds as extreme views, and he has preached his views, and suffered for his extreme views, as much as any Communist in the country. He will still hold them, and it is nonsense to say that because three or four men and women are to be brought from Germany to the Gorbals Division of Glasgow, that the next morning a social upheaval is going to be created.
I am not in the least afraid of an upheaval. I wish day and night, when I look at this House during the two and a-half years that I have been here, that the working people were not so quiet. The people of the district where the Conference is to be held are to-day poorer than they were when George Barnes was sent here by their pence and their halfpence to represent them in 1906. I earnestly wish that the working people were not so quiet and that something would stir them up. It is only by that sort of thing that I believe they will ever receive anything. If the Home Secretary would take his mind back to 1914, he will remember that his own colleagues, the present Secretary of State for India, Lord Carson and other men, actually preached force. Nothing was done then to stop them, but active support was given by most of his present Cabinet colleagues. That is because they were rich. The crime in this case is because the people to whom you are objecting are associated with the poor, and they want to abolish poverty.
I say frankly that the Home Secretary has surprised me by his decency in regard to many cases, and I hope that on this occasion he will see his way, even at this late hour, to allow the Conference to go on as arranged, and that he will allow the delegates to be present. It is my intention, because the Conference is to be held in my constituency, to welcome the delegates, as I would welcome a religious organisation or any other organisation that came to my district. I represent these people in the House of Commons equally as I am the representative of other people of different views. I intend to welcome them, and I question whether their speeches will be any worse or any more extreme than my speech when I welcome them. I think you are acting wrongly. You are giving them a notoriety for which they have not asked. I do hope that the Home Secretary will see his way to reverse his decision.
I am sorry that the hon. Member has thought fit to refer to my decency in regard to certain matters. I can only say that I do my best to meet all Members of Parliament who come to me with grievances of any kind. It is not merely any desire to be decent, but it is done with a desire to do all I can for them, however much I may differ from their views on political questions.
I think there is a misconception as to the reasons for the action which the Government has taken. I apologise to the hon. Member for Bridegton that I was not here when he made his remarks. I was at the Home Office. He did not give me notice that he was going to raise this matter, otherwise I would have been here earlier. He seems to have suggested that this has been done by some arrangement between us and Germany, and that it follows upon our having sent congratulations to the new German President upon his election. No discussion of any kind has taken place between this Government and Germany in regard to this matter, and there have been no congratulations of any kind sent by this Government to the new German President.
My suggestion was entirely due to the very evasive answers that have been given to questions.
Hon. Members will agree, I hope, that my answers are very rarely evasive. There is a Communist party in this country, and its members are justified, if they desire to do so, in holding a Communist conference. I have taken no steps against any hon. Members, though I do think that some of them do make very explosive speeches from time to time, and speeches that really do not add to the welfare of society.
You do not hear them. You get false reports.
I do not wish to mention any names, but if the hon. Member wishes to put the cap on his own head I cannot help it.
You must not say that. I will take another opportunity.
I wish now to reply to the points which have been raised. The position that we take is that there is, and always has been, free speech in this country for persons who are our own nationals, English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh. They are entitled to hold their views and the House will agree with me that there has been no attempt on my part to prosecute any Englishman or Scotsman for holding these views. If they do hold them they are entitled to hold them. But when they propose to ask certain foreigners to come over here in order to advocate these views from their standpoint I ask hon. Members to put themselves in my position. We have the different great parties in this country, and then come the Communist party who are distinctly and definitely associated with the Communist Internationale abroad. They accept its views and theories. They are part of an international organisation, very much larger than the English organisation, which is determined, if it can, to uproot the present Constitution of the British Empire.
I have no objection to a Communist organisation trying to uproot the Russian or the German or any other constitution. That is not my business. They are perfectly free, so far as I am concerned, in their own countries to advocate the destruction of any political system. On the other hand, I have no right to go to Germany or Russia to try to enforce my propaganda as regards Conservatism and to try to upset the Government in Russia or Germany. The Communist party in this country is very closely connected with the Communist party abroad, with the Internationale. The rules and statutes of the British Communist party include those of the Internationale, and the party Congress is the supreme authority of the party and is responsible to the Communist Internationale. That is not a British party. The objects of the Communist Internationale are set out in the frankest possible way, and hon. Members opposite may know that. Here is one passage from the actual constitution which is accepted by the Communist party of this country.
It so happens that a month or so ago these very same people were allowed by myself to come in an attend the Trade Union Congress. Now the Trade Union Congress is a working-class organisation, a distinct and authorised body, representing a very large mass of the working classes of this country. I had the pleasure this week of receiving a deputation from the Trade Union Congress, not on any political question at all, but on important questions regarding factories, workshops, and the well being of the working classes. We had a very beneficial interview so fat as the Home Secretary was concerned. I got to know more of their views, and I hope in time to be able to accede to some of their wishes. But they are not a political organisation; they were not attempting to overthrow the constitution, which we are bound to support. They were asking for an alteration in the condition of affairs. The Trade Union Congress held a conference here, and these men desired to attend. I made a very careful inquiry privately as to whether the Trade Union Congress, or some of the representatives of the Trade Union Congress, desired them to be present, and the answer was that it would be well they should come and take part in the deliberations of the Trade Union Congress for the improvement of the conditions of the working classes. The Government at once said they may come, and six of them, headed by M. Tomsky, who is a notorious Bolshevist of Russia, were allowed to come here and discuss questions relating to the improvement of the conditions of the working classes.
But this is a Communistic body, this is a Communistic conference, called directly and distinctly for the purpose of destroying our constitution, and, therefore, I say that we are entitled to defend ourselves; we are entitled to defend our constitution. And we are entitled to say that these men shall not come in here, because they are not attempting to improve the welfare of the working people of the country. They are attempting to come here, as they themselves would say. for the express purpose of furthering and enlarging the scope in this country of the Communistic party, which is in direct association and in subordination to the constitution of the Communist Internationale. I say we have a right to prevent them coming here for that purpose.
Hon. Members opposite may be perhaps inclined to deny that right. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) spoke of the power of the Communist party and said that because the Communist party was powerful in the country we ought to allow these men access to this conference. He will forgive me if I say that I am perfectly certain that the enormous majority of the people of this country would support the action the Government have taken in preventing them coming in. We have a right to do it. Hon. Members opposite believe in democracy. They believe in the right of democracy to govern, but they will forgive me if I say that I am a better democrat than some of them. I believe in the rights of the majority. The majority has the right to say frankly who shall come into their country and who shall not. I have argued that point before in regard to ordinary alien immigration to this country. I say that the country has the right, the Imperial right, to say who shall enter and who shall not, and the majority of the people of this country who have returned us to Parliament by a sufficient majority to carry on the Government have a right to say, and will say: "We do not want these men to come in. We are not prepared to allow them to come in. They are not representative of the working classes, they are not desirous of improving the condition of the working classes here, but are representatives of an international Communist organisation which is deliberately and definitely bent upon the destruction of the British Constitution, not only in these islands but in our Colonies—bent on destroying all British rule throughout our Dominions and Colonies and India."
It is perfectly clear from the constitution of the Communist party that that is their object. I say frankly that we have a right, as an Imperial Government, to present these men coming in for destructive purposes, exactly as much as we would have a right to prevent them coming in here if we knew that they were coming with dynamite to destroy the buildings of this country. As long as they come for destructive purposes we have a right to keep them out. As long as they come to such a body as the Trade Union Congress, which is representative of the working classes of this country, the Government have shown by past action, and will show by future action, that there is no objection to such trade union activity, but they do object to having Communist party doctrines enlarged, improved and spread by agitators from abroad who have no interest in the well-being of this country or this Empire.
On the same democratic principle, would Indians also have the right to say by a majority that no Englishman should enter their country; or would Chinese have the right to say that no Christian missionaries should enter their country? Would it not be against all the ordinary principles of freedom if they claimed such a ridiculous right?
I had not noticed that the Communist party had arrived. It is perfectly clear that where-ever, in any country, there is a democratic House of Commons and a democratic Government, that Government has the right to do what it considers to be in the best interests of its people.
Do the Government make the democracy, or do the people of the country make the democracy?
The Government is the expression of the views of the people of a democratic country.
In conquered countries would the Government have the right to express the views of the people? Were the Germans expressing the views of the Belgian people during the occupation? If the Russians conquered England would they be expressing your feelings?
The hon. Member forgets that the Communists have not yet conquered this country.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Two Minutes before Seven o'Clock until Tuesday, 9th June, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.