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Commons Chamber

Volume 184: debated on Wednesday 10 June 1925

House of Commons

Wednesday, June 10, 1925

Private Business

Southern Railway Bill [ Lords ] (by Order).

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Read a Second time, and committed.

Standing Orders

Ordered, That so much of Standing Order 91 as fixes Five as the quorum of the Select Committee on Standing Orders be read and suspended.

Ordered, That, for the remainder of the Session, Three be the quorum of the Committee.—[ Major-General Sir Newton Moore. ]

New Writ

For the Borough of Oldham, in the room of Lieut.-Colonel Sir EDWARD WILLIAM MACLEAY GRIGG, K.C.V.O., C.M.G., D.S.O., Governor and Commander-in-Chief of Kenya Colony and Protectorate. —[ Sir Godfrey Collins. ]

Motor Traffic (Speed Limit)

Address for Return "showing the number of prosecutions and convictions of drivers of public vehicles, heavy motor cars, light motor cars and motor cycles in January, February and March, 1925, for exceeding the speed limit in the Metropolitan Police district and in the outlying parts of the county of Surrey.— [ Mr. G. Locker-Lampson. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Esthonia (Purchases of Munitions)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Esthonian Government have recently made large purchases of ammunitions of war both from Great Britain and America; whether such purchases have been made with the consent of the British Government; whether credits have been guaranteed Esthonia by this country; and, if so, what is the nature of the agreement?

I am not aware of any large purchases of ammunition having been made by the Esthonian Government in this country. I cannot, of course, speak for America. The answer to the remainder of the question is in the negative.

What is the amount of ammunition that has been purchased, and also the description?

Cuba (Treatment of British Subjects)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any effective steps have been taken by the Cuban Government to bring to justice those guilty of the ill-treatment of British subjects in that country; whether any representations have been made by the present Government; and, if so, whether it is proposed to issue another White Paper on the subject?

Last December His Majesty's Minister at Havana proposed that the Jamaican Government should provide an official to be attached to his staff who would look after the interests of all West Indian labourers from the time of their landing and travel about the country investigating complaints and settling them as far as possible on the spot and in co-operation with the local Cuban authorities. This suggestion was approved both by His Majesty's Government and the Cuban Government early this year, and the latter appointed a special official to co-operate with the new Jamaican official. The new arrangement has been most successful. His Majesty's Representative at Havana has recently reported that he has not had a single complaint of ill-treatment for the last three months, that better conditions prevail everywhere, and that relations with the Cuban Government are now most cordial. It has therefore not been necessary to make any further representations to the Cuban Government during the present year, although, as the hon. and gallant Member will be aware from a perusal of the White Papers issued last year, strong protests have been addressed to that Government in the past in regard to the treatment of British subjects. As regards the third part of the question, it is not considered that there is at present any necessity for the publication of a further White Paper.

Peace Treaties

Cologne (Evacuation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the present potitioi1. with regard to the evacuation of Cologne by the British forces under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the date for the British evacuation of Cologne?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now make a statement regarding the probable date of the British evacuation of the Cologne zone?

The Allied Governments will order the evacuation of the Cologne zone as soon as the military requirements set forth in their Note of the 4th June have been made good by Germany.

Disarmament

( for Mr. G. THORNE)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he is in a position to make a statement with reference to the terms of the Allied Note on disarmament delivered to the German Government?

The text of the Note has been presented to Parliament, and was published in full in the Press last week.

Russia

Outstanding Questions

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any progress has been made in the settlement of outstanding questions with the Government of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics; and what is the next step he contemplates towards settling these questions?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I have nothing to add to the replies given to the hon. and gallant Member on the 23rd February, the 11th, 18th and 25th March.

Are any steps contemplated at all? The right hon. Gentleman refers to previous answers which are simply negatives. Is the matter under the consideration of the Foreign Office?

That is the question that was put to my right hon. Friend by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I hops he is not trying to induce me to express an opinion at variance with that of my chief?

Has no change taken place since the present Government took office, as they have done nothing at all in the matter?

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman was informed that the next step lay with the Soviet Government.

Does that answer mean that the Government are not prepared to recognise Soviet Russia at all, and is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that practically all the other Governments under the sun have recognised Soviet Russia?

Is the hon. Member not aware that the Soviet Government is recognised by His Majesty's Government?

British Exports

( for Mr. G. THORNE)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the Government propose to enter into any negotiations with Russia with a view to the increase of our exports to that country?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for the Western Isles on the 1st April.

Egypt

Ottoman Loans

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has anything to report on the Ottoman loans secured on the Egyptian Tribute?

I understand that judgment will be given on the 15th June in the action now proceeding in Cairo.

Zaghloul Party

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for what reason an official announcement was made by the Residency in Cairo to the effect that in no circumstances would negotiations be undertaken with the Zaghloul party?

Lord Allenby had full authority to issue such a statement, if he found it necessary, in order to correct the erroneous impression which interested persons were endeavouring to spread in Egypt that His Majesty's Government intended to discuss the political situation with Zaghloul Pasha.

Does that mean that if Zaghloul were successful in the new elections, when held, no negotiations would be undertaken?

Germany

British Aeroplanes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any agreement has been made with the German Government with regard to giving permission to British aeroplanes to fly over Germany?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith On the 7th May and to the hon. and gallant Member for Hull on the 21st May, to which I have nothing to add.

Taxation

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the taxation of the German population per head; and if Section 1, General Provision (236 and 244), Annex II, of the Treaty of Versailles is being carried out by the commission appointed by the Dawes Committee?

From the most recent figures available to me, the taxation raised by the German Republic (excluding taxation raised by the German States) represents approximately 117 Reichsmarks per head of the population. As regards the second part of the question, I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the provision of paragraph 12 ( b ) of Annex II. If so, the Dawes plan was based on an examination of the German system of taxation, and so long as Germany is fulfilling, as she is at present, the obligations imposed by that plan, the question does not arise.

May I point out that I was referring to the Clause in the Treaty of Versailles which, I understand, was incorporated in the Dawes Report?

We were not able to identify the particular cross-heading which the hon. Member gives.

Will the hon. Gentleman look into it, because the Clause states that the taxation of Germany per head should not be less than that of the Allied countries?

The Dawes Committee took that into consideration in framing their scheme, and until Germany is in default there does not seem to be any fresh situation calling for reconsideration.

Reparation Payments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the German payments from reparations from 1st April, and the amount paid to this country?

The total net amount received during April and May, 1925, by the Agent-General for reparation payments in respect of the Dawes Annuity which covers all Allied claims against Germany arising out of the Peace Treaty) was 160,144,943 gold marks. Of this the total net amount paid by the Agent-General to or for the account of Great Britain was 31,468,901 gold marks.

Disarmament

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement as to the calling, by the President of the United States of America or by the British Government, of a Conference on Disarmament?

As regards His Majesty's Government, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister on the 14th May to the hon. Member for Shoreditch. I am not in a position to make a statement as to the intentions of the Government of the United States of America.

Proposed Five-Power Pact

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can explain the present position of the negotiations for a five-Power Pact?

If the hon. Member will be so good as to repeat his question when my right hon. Friend returns from the meeting of the Council of the League of Nations, which he is at present attending .at Geneva, he will, no doubt, get a more complete answer than could give at the present moment.

Mosul Commission

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the Report of the Mosul Commission is expected?

I am unable to add anything to the answer given on the 27th May last to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull.

Bulgaria (Volunteer Troops)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make concerning the disbandment of the additional troops which the Bulgarian Government was permitted to raise?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I returned yesterday to the hon. Member for Shipley, to which I have nothing to add.

Morocco

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement with reference to the position in Morocco?

I am not quite sure on what particular point the hon. Member wishes for information. If he has in mind the situation created by the spread of the Riffian rising into the French zone, I would refer him to the statement in the French Chamber by the President of the Council, which was well summarised in the English Press on the 29th of May.

Royal Navy

Air Arm

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the three strongest naval Powers in the world other than our own give to their admiralties complete control over the provision, training, and development of the air arms of the fleet and air defences, supplementing the work of their navies defending commerce; and what steps the Admiralty are taking to remedy the present anomalous state of affairs in the British Navy?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the Admiralty are carefully watching the development of the system which was instituted by His Majesty's Government in 1923.

Aeronautics (Instruction)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he 16 aware of the decision of the United States Navy Department that all midshipmen of the United States Naval Academy are to receive instruction in practical and theoretical aviation, so that they may qualify as pilots or observers according to their physical fitness; and whether any corresponding air training can be given under similar naval direction in this country?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, part, arrangements are already in force in His Majesty's Navy, under which it will be compulsory in future for all executive officers to undergo a short course in elementary naval aeronautics in aircraft carriers during their service as midshipmen, or in some cases as junior commissioned officers. It will also be optional for all existing commissioned officers of the Military Branch and Royal Marines under a certain age to volunteer for this course.

New Construction Programme

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty when he will be in a position to announce the Government's programme of new construction?

Is this matter receiving immediate attention, in view of the discharges which are bound to take place in the dockyards and shipyards?

Inter-Allied Debts

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the present position of the negotiations for the payment of the French Debt?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday to questions by the hon. Member for Central Hull and the right hon. Member for Colne Valley.

Are we to understand that there have been no new negotiations since M. Caillaux took office?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the present position of the negotiations for the payment of the Italian Debt?

I can add nothing to the replies given on the 24th February and the 30th April to the hon. and gallant Member for Hackney, South.

Clinical Thermometer Industry (Wages)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in the clinical thermometer industry male workers of full age are being paid wanes which average less than £2 for a full working week of from 48 to 60 hours; and is he prepared to accede to the request of the workers employed in that industry for the establishment of a trade board?

An inquiry was recently made into the earnings in this trade. The Report of the inquiry is at present under consideration, and I am not yet in a position to say what action will be taken.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that these people working from 48 to 60 hours a week and receiving £2 are working at a starvation wage, and will he accelerate this request?

The hon. Member persists in a statement which, as I have told him, I can neither affirm or refute until I have had an opportunity of examining the Report.

The hon. Member has had time to consider the question and examine the matter, seeing that the question has been on the Paper three weeks.

Unemployment

Local Poor Rates

asked the Minister of Labour whether, when considering the terms of his Unemployment Act Amending Bill, he will have regard to the opinions of local authorities as to the effect on their local poor rates of the enforcement of the present Act after October next if unamended; and will he frame his new legislation with the object of relieving the burden of local rates during the coming winter?

My right hon. Friend is bearing these points in mind in framing the Bill.

Will the hon. Gentleman suggest to his right hon. Friend that in framing this Measure he should follow the example of the Minister of Health and submit draft proposals to the local authorities before submitting the Bill to Parliament?

Statistics

also asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed men, women, and juveniles, respectively, for the last convenient date, and for a comparable date last year?

The number of persons on the 2nd June, 1925, recorded on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 1,247,300, of whom 971,200 were men, 213,800 women, and 62,300 juveniles. The corresponding figure for 2nd June, 1924, was 1,002,915 (men 754,661, women 185,731, and juveniles 62,523), but the figure at the date of the Whitsun holiday, 9th June, was 1,027,515.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Labour told me some time ago that the Government had a remedy for unemployment? Are they going to bring it forward?

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us the reason for this extraordinary increase in the number of the unemployed?

I will certainly give the hon. Member such information as I have. It is largely owing to holiday suspensions for Whitsuntide. Last year during the corresponding two weeks the increase was just over 50,000. Of the 60,000 indicated yesterday, 30,000 come from the north-western area, and about 15,000 are cotton operatives.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what has become of the sense of security in the country since the return of the Tory Government?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a lot of unemployment in the theatrical profession is owing to guardsmen being employed as supers?

Insurance Act (Amending Bill)

further asked the Minister of Labour when he proposes to introduce a Bill to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1924?

My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to introduce this Bill at an early date.

Can we have more precise information at an early date? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the altered Act comes into operation on 1st October, and that unless this Bill passes through all its stages in time, a serious position will arise?

Museums, London (Guides)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he can inform the House what arrangements are made by the different museums in London in the way of explaining the nation's treasures to visitors; whether guides are available for specific parties of a certain number of visitors; and what is the type of guide employed?

The services of guide lecturers are now available at all the national museums and art galleries in London, with the exception of the Imperial War Museum. Regular lectures are given at stated times, as a rule twice daily. Extra tours for special parties of visitors can be arranged on application to the Director or Curator of the museum or gallery in question Full particulars of the arrangements at each museum and gallery are published monthly in a Stationery Office publication, of which I am sending a copy to the hon. Member. The guide lecturers are men of university or corresponding educational attainments.

The right hon. Gentleman need not send me a copy, because I have one already. Is it not a fact that this excellent work is not sufficiently known, and will he see that every possibility is provided for people obtaining information other than buying for 4s. a document which is not likely to have a ready sale?

We should welcome the co-operation of the hon. Member in regard to this matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the trouble to inquire into the conditions under which these lecturers do their work and the pay they receive.

I have inquired. I had a deputation from these museums, and as a result we have increased the remuneration.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether some of these guides can be detailed for service in this Palace?

Coastguard Cottages (Lodgers)

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department

, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether instructions have been issued to tenants of surplus coastguard cottages that they are not to take in lodgers; whether, seeing that in many cases these tenants have been allowed to take in lodgers for a few weeks during the summer months in previous years, and in view of the hardship caused to them by these instructions, he will take steps to have them cancelled?

( for the FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, as has already been explained to the hon. and gallant Member, it is considered necessary on grounds of policy to prohibit lodgers, and as this is taken into account in fixing the rents of the houses, no real hardship is involved to the tenants.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these tenants have in previous years been allowed to take in lodgers?

The rule has not been rigidly observed hitherto, but, in the interests of the Board of Trade, it must be adhered to in the future.

Vaccination Forms (Advertisements)

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that soap advertisements are printed upon the back of the notice of the requirements of vaccination; if he will state what amount is derived from this source; and whether it is intended to continue this means of raising revenue?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affimative, and to the last part in the negative. As regards the second part, the amount received for the sale of the advertising space in the current issue of the notice was £136.

Housing

Light Castings (Prices)

asked the Minister of Health when the Report of the Committee on Prices of Building Materials with reference to the increase in prices of the National Light Castings Association will be available?

The Committee are still engaged on their investigation and my right hon. Friend understands it is not practicable to say when their Report will be available.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that it is nearly four months since the Minister of Health in this House made a statement which conveyed the idea that an immediate investigation was to take place, as to these increases in prices, and that nothing has been done for four months?

The Committee have met several times to consider this matter and they have made certain requests to the Association for information. Directly that information is available the Committee will sit again.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any approximate date when the Committee will report?

In view of the fact that requests have previously been made to this body and those requests have not been answered, would it be possible to bring some pressure to bear upon them?

I understand that the Association have offered to allow their books to be inspected by a chartered accountant. When the Report is before the Committee their decision will be conveyed to my right hon. Friend.

Condemned Houses

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that in many districts people are still crowded in houses which have been condemned by the local authority; that as a result these houses are not kept in a proper state of repair by the landlords; and that many of them are so dilapidated that the health of the inmates, and especially of the children, is suffering in consequence; and whether he will consider circularising local authorities to give priority to the question of re-housing such tenants and, if necessary, the introduction of legislation to provide special assistance in these cases?

My right hon. Friend has confidence that local authorities generally are fully alive to the desirability of re-housing persons living in over crowded and insanitary conditions, and that in considering the claims of applicants for new houses they give full consideration to persons living in condemned houses. My right hon. Friend is afraid that the provision of special assistance to meet such cases would not be practicable, and he cannot undertake to introduce legislation of the nature suggested.

Does the hon. Gentleman understand that people who are living in condemned houses are not having built any kind of accommodation which they can afford to take and that they are offered houses which they cannot possibly use, because the rent is impossible?

I cannot assent to that suggestion. A very great amount of progress has been made in re-housing the people at the present time, in a larger degree than at any time in the history of this country. Mr. STEPHEN: Will the hon. Member consider the introduction of legislation making it impossible for people to obtain rents for condemned houses?

No, Sir; I do not think we want more legislation, but we want more houses.

Small Dwellings Acquisition Act

asked the Minister of Health the number of authorities that have taken advantage of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts to assist individuals to acquire their homes; and what amount of money has been loaned since the maximum price was raised to £800?

Loans amounting to £i3,615,783 have already been made or sanctioned to assist the acquisition and erection of houses. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPOET details of how this amount is made up.

The following are the details:

Loans under the Small Dwellings: Acquisition Acts have been sanctioned in the case of 236 local authorities. The limit of market value of houses in respect of which advances can be made was raised to £800 by the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919, but has since been increased by the Housing, etc., Act, 1923, to £1,200. Since the passing of the former Act the total amount of loans sanctioned by my right hon. Friend's Department under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act for the purpose of advances to owner occupiers is £7,519,511, whilst the London County Council have sanctioned loans to Metropolitan borough councils or themselves made advances direct amounting to £384,685.

In addition, under Section 5 of the Housing, etc., Act, 1923, which authorises loans to persons or bodies of persons for the acquisition or construction of houses not exceeding a market value of £1,500. Two hundred and twenty-seven local authorities have had loans sanctioned amounting to £4,612,149, and the London County Council have advanced £478,930. The Birmingham City Council, under Local Act powers, have also made advances amounting to £620,508. These figures give a total of £13,615,783.

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to consider legislation to permit local authorities to grant the full amount of the money necessary to acquire houses, because the workers to-day have not got the necessary amount to put down?

In reply to the first question, the hon. Member had better put it down on the Paper. The second question is not asked. All the facts asked for will be stated in the answer which is to be circulated.

Tithe Bill

asked the Minister of Agriculture what increase of staff and what annual increase of salaries are estimated as being necessary to carry out the provisions of the Tithe Bill when it becomes law?

It is not anticipated that any additional staff will be rendered necessary in my Department.

I did not ask that. I asked what increased staff would be required. The provisions are to be carried out by the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, and I want to know what the increase of staff and the increased expense will be.

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Queen Anne's Bounty is not a Government Department. I have no information of what extra staff will be required. That will fall within their responsibility, and in regard to it they will assume financial liability.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated amount of the sums payable by the Exchequer in respect of rates under the Tithe Bill; and what is the estimated amount of the working expenses thrown on the Exchequer by the Bill?

I have been asked to reply. I must ask my right hon. and learned Friend to await the issue of the White Paper explaining the financial provisions of the Bill and its effect on administration so far as the Exchequer is concerned.

Murder Cases (Investigation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any steps are contemplated towards giving the full control of investigation into murder cases that occur throughout the country to the Criminal Investigation Department at Scotland Yard; and if any opposition is being shown to the employment of these specially trained officers by the controlling bodies of the constabulary throughout the country?

Government Printing Establishments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Committer of Inquiry into Government printing establishments has completed the taking of evidence; if so, what was the date of the last meeting of the Committee; whether the Report of the Committee has been drafted and considered; and when publication of the Report may be expected?

I am informed that the Committee completed the taking of evidence on the 18th December last, the date of their last meeting, and that the Report has been drafted and will be placed before the Committee for their consideration at an early date.

Australia (Governor-General)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the desirability of making the appointment of Governor-General of Australia harmonise with the political and social opinions of the majority of the States in the Commonwealth, he can say if the Government of Australia was consulted prior to the recent appointment of the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the State in the Commonwealth of Australia, with one exception, are now under a Labour Government, and has he had cabled to him the comments of the Labour Press upon this appointment?

Sir John Baird has been appointed Governor-General of the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth Government is not a Labour Government.

Are not all the States of the Commonwealth, with one exception, under a Labour Government, and has the right hon. Gentleman had cabled to him the comments of the Labour Press on this appointment?

I have not had cabled to me the comments of the Labour Press. It is a fact that the local Parliaments of the Commonwealth are nearly all under a Labour Government, but it is a recognised rule that considerations of politics should be kept out of these appointments.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the appointment has been very popular in Ayrshire?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the provinces in Canada appoint their own Governor-Generals, and have not gob them imposed on them from this country?

There is no parallel between the two cases. The Governor-General of Canada is appointed in precisely the same way as the Governor-General of Australia. The provinces in Canada have not got Governors as have the sovereign States of Australia. The provinces of Canada are in a different position entirely from the States of Australia. They have local. Lieutenant-Governors.

Is it not a fact that the basis of politics in this country is entirely different from that which exists in Australia, and that one of the strongest planks in the Labour position in Australia is Imperial Preference?

Irish Boundary Commission

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state when the Report of the Irish Boundary Commission is expected?

East African Dependencies (Development Loan)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government has come to any decision as to the loan of money for the improvement of transport in the East African Dependencies?

It has not yet been possible for any decision to be taken on the question of a guaranteed loan for East African development.

Before any decision is taken as to the conditions on which the loan will be issued, will there be an opportunity for discussing them in this House?

No loan guaranteed by the British Government can be given without an Act of Parliament, which must be passed through all its stages in both House of Parliament.

Milk

asked the Minister of Health the quantity and money value of liquid and dried milk supplied to mothers and children during the quarter ended 31st March, 1924, in the county borough of West Ham, the borough of Poplar, the

The following STATEMENT contains the Information asked for as regards the three Local Areas mentioned in the Question:

Quantity.

Money Value.

£

s.

d.

West Ham

Dried Milk

61,625 lbs.

2,750

0

0 ٭

Liquid Milk

Nil

Poplar

Dried Milk

3,733 lbs.

279

19

6†

Liquid Milk

139,974 pints

1,950

3

5

Birmingham

Dried Milk

17,772 lbs.

1,222

0

0‡

Liquid Milk

Nil

٭ This amount includes the sum of £1,596 9s. 2d. paid by recipients This amount includes the sum of £1,596 9s. 2d. paid by recipients

† This amount includes the sum of £194 17s. paid by recipients,

‡ This is the amount paid for dried milk supplied at cost price.

The information desired, as regards the country generally, is not available, but for the financial year 1923–24 the estimated gross expenditure of local authorities in England and Wales on milk supplied to mothers and children was £383,878, and the estimated net expenditure was £174,089.

West Ham (Casual Wards)

asked the Minister of Health Whether he will inquire into the circumstances attending the fact that the casual wards of the West Ham Union central homes are so overcrowded that casuals have been compelled to sleep on the floors of the passage ways; and whether he will cause the necessary instructions to be issued to so augment the accommodation that all casuals have sleeping facilities, etc., in conformity with the orders of his Department?

My hon. Friend has caused inquiries to be made, and finds that there is a margin of accommodation available. It would appear that the hon. Member has been misinformed.

Jubilee Road, Mitcheldene

( for Mr. WIGNALL)asked the Minister of Health if, as a

city of Birmingham, and the country generally?

As the answer involves a tabular statement, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

result of the inquiry conducted by his representative into the condition of the-Jubilee Road, leading to the Pump Hill' schools, near Mitcheldene, Gloucestershire, he has received intimation of the willingness of the local authority and the Crown Lands Department to put the road into a proper state of repair and thus prevent the serious danger to the health of the children attending this school?

My right hon. Friend is making inquiries in this matter at the instance of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education, but it should be understood that he has no powers of active intervention, and no investigation on the spot has been made by any of his officers.

Franchise Reform

( for Mr. LIVINGSTONE)asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to set up a Committee to inquire into the reform of the franchise?

I can make no statement on this subject at present.

In consequence of the very large number of women who voted for the Tory party at the last election will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to extend the franchise so as to increase the number of women?

Food Council

( for Mr. BRIANT)asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends to take steps to carry out the recommendations of the Food Commission?

The Government have decided to adopt in principle the Royal Commission's main recommendation, and to set up a Food Council whose functions will be to carry out the general plan outlined in the Commission's Report.

Will there be a Bill to set up this Council, and, if so, when will it be introduced?

The matter can be fully discussed on the Vote for the Board of Trade.

We cannot discuss legislation on that Vote. Do I understand that a Bill will be required to set up a Council, and, if so, when will it be introduced?

I have not gone Very fully into it, but my impression is that a Bill will not be required.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is to be required? Is there to be tranquility once more— Baldwin's balsam?

House of Lords

( for Mr. BRIANT)asked the Prime Minister whether the Committee appointed to consider the reform of the House of Lords has come to any conclusions; and whether he is in a position to announce the Government's policy on the matter?

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is of the same opinion as one of his predecessors—that the matter does not brook delay?

Gramophone Motors

( for Mr. BRIANT)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the proposed new import duties, it is proposed to levy a tax upon the clockwork motors imported by the gramophone manufacturers in this country: and, if so, is it also proposed to include condensers, transformers, valves and other parts of wireless instruments?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. I would, however, point out that wireless valves are liable to duty under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921.

Tsetse Fly (Tropical Africa)

( for Mr. H. WILLIAMS)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any decisions have yet been arrived at with regard to large-scale schemes for the elimination of the tsetse fly in British possessions in Africa?

My hon. Friend has no doubt seen in the Press references to the recent meeting organised by the Health Section of the League of Nations, which was attended by representatives of the Powers having interests in Africa. Proposals were then formulated for the despatch of an international scientific expedition to Uganda, under the general direction of Dr. H. Lyndhurst Duke, of the East African Medical Service, and my right hon. Friend sincerely hopes that those proposals will be approved. That expedition, however, would be mainly concerned with further scientific research and the medical side of the problem, and my right hon. Friend trusts that it will prove possible to arrange a more comprehensive campaign for the destruction of tsetse fly in the British Dependencies in tropical Africa on the lines contemplated in the Report of the East African Commission.

Tanganyika (Amani Institute)

( for Mr. H. WILLIAMS)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any decision has been arrived at with regard to the Amani Institute, in Tanganyika Territory?

Yes, Sir; my right hon. Friend has decided that early steps should be taken for the establishment of the institute and for its upkeep as a centre of scientific agricultural research, for the benefit first of the British East African Dependencies, and secondly of tropical economic development generally. The necessary financial arrangements have not yet been settled, but I may say that he regards this matter as one of great importance from an Imperial point of view and that he hopes to obtain the assistance of the Treasury in meeting a portion of the expenditure involved, the bulk of the annually recurrent charges being met from the funds of the dependencies most immediately concerned.

Questions to Ministers

In view of the fact that questions have ended somewhat early, can I put No. 22?

The hon. Member has already asked his three questions. I do not think I can depart from the general rule.

Proposed Security Pact

Statement by Prime Minister

( by Private Notice )asked the Prime Minister whether the French semi-official version of the proposed Security Pact published in the Press correctly represents the arrangement agreed to by Great Britain; if the security of the western frontier of Germany is based on the principle of "mutuality" proposed by Germany; and whether Italy is a party to the proposed Pact?

I can fully understand the desire of the House to have the earliest opportunity of discussing this question and I have already undertaken in reply to a question yesterday by the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) that a statement shall be made on the return of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Meantime, I would ask the House to exercise patience in the full assurance that no security pact has yet been signed or will be concluded without the House being given an opportunity for full discussion.

Meantime, in view of certain misapprehensions which have arisen in the public mind, I think it well to say that the position up to date is that the British and French Governments, after careful examination of the German proposals to the French Government of the 9th February, have reached complete agreement on certain basic principles to which any such settlement must conform, and to which there is every reason to anticipate the adhesion of Belgium and Italy.

It is understood that these views will be communicated by the French Government to the German Government, and if the German Government see their way to share them the way will then be open for the actual negotiations of a pact to be negotiated between the Allied Powers interested in the Rhineland and Germany on a footing of equality. The settlement contemplated is of strictly bi-lateral character and is not one-sided as may possibly have been inferred from certain reports that have appeared. The view of both the British and French Governments is that the settlement must be such that it will give the fullest possible security to all the signatory Powers so long as they abide by their Treaty obligations, and that on the other hand it cannot be invoked by any guilty Power to protect it from the consequences of a wilful breach of its Treaty obligations.

I would only add that as soon as the French Government's reply has been despatched to Berlin I propose, subject to the concurrence of the French Government, to communicate its text to Parliament.

I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman for a decision. Does this Pact refer only to the Rhinelands which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned? Is there any mention of Germany's eastern frontiers or of the frontiers in Eastern Europe generally in this agreement?

I think that had much better be discussed when the documents can be seen and the Foreign Secretary heard. It would be very difficult to answer those points without going at great length into a document which at the moment cannot be made public. I would like to add that, when the communication is seen, there will be nothing that differs in any respect from what has been already stated to the House by the Foreign Secretary.

May I ask the Prime Minister for a better idea as to when this statement will be made? Will it be possible for the Foreign Secretary to be back next week, or must the statement be postponed until the week after?

I am afraid that the Foreign Secretary will not be back until Thursday of next week. Whether it will be possible to have a Debate on Friday or at the beginning of the following week I do not know.

Are we to understand that the documents are to be secret until the House has an opportunity of discussing them? Is Parliament to be left in the dark until the matter is finally sealed and settled?

I have already explained, and if the hon. Member will read my reply, he will find that that point is met.

Business of the House

How far do the Government propose to go with the Finance Bill to-night?

I very much hope not. I do not think I am asking anything unreasonable in the way of progress.

Does the right hon. Gentleman expect to get not only the Silk Duties, but also the debate on Imperial Preference and the Sugar Duty to-night?

No, I propose to stop at the end of Clause 7, so that when we resume we may start on Imperial Preference early in the day.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Clause 7 fixes for ten years the rate of the Sugar Duty?

That can very soon be decided one way or the other.

Air Ministry (Cattewater Seaplane Station) Bill,

"to confirm an agreement between the Cattewater Commissioners and the President of the Air Council in relation to the acquisition of certain lands in the county of Devon; and for purposes in connection therewith," presented by Sir SAMUEL HOAEE; supported by Sir Philip Sassoon; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 192.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee A

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee A: Sir Douglas Newton.

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; that they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Sir. Grant; and had appointed in substitution: Major Tasker.

Standing Committee C

Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Captain Brass.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Finance Bill

Again Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 4.—(Customs duties on silk and artificial silk.)

With regard to this and the following Clause, I shall be glad to know what course will best meet the convenience of the Committee. The first Amendment to Clause 4 in the name of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. P. Snowden)—to leave out "July " and insert " January "—is very limited in scope, and, in the ordinary course, the Debate upon it would have to be very restricted. But if the Committee wished to have a general Debate upon that Amendment, I should be ready to allow it. There is a further consideration, namely, that it would be difficult to debate the Customs Duties on silk without reference to the Excise Duty. Therefore, to meet the convenience of the Committee, I propose to allow, on the first Amendment, a general discussion both on the Customs Duties and the Excise Duty, but on the condition that there must not be any general Debate on the Questions that either this Clause or the following Clause stand part of the Bill. If that meet the convenience of the Committee I shall be ready to rule accordingly.

We are quite willing to agree to that suggestion. It is impossible to discuss the Customs Duties without somewhat copious reference to the Excise Duty, as the two are so much mixed up together, and the full effect on the trade of the Customs Duties cannot be considered or debated without also giving consideration to the effect of the countervailing duties. I think the two may, therefore, be discussed together. It may be found, however, that on the details of some of the Amendments, which I think you, Sir, will consider to be in order, there may have to be some references to the effect of the detailed alterations upon the general Clause; and without raising the merits of the general Clause, or raising any of the questions dealt with in the general Debate upon their own merits, perhaps a proper use of reference to the general Clause would be allowed. On the third point, with reference to there being no Debate on the question that the Clause stand part of the Bill, we certainly agree to that.

I understand the right hon. Gentleman to mean that when Amendments to the Clause are moved— for instance, Amendments confining it to actual silk—it will be impossible to avoid considering the effect of such Amendments or of the rejection of such Amendments on the general position. Obviously that would be perfectly in order. The one thing which it is my business to avoid is having the same discussion twice over.

How shall we stand when we come to the Schedule? The actual rate of the duty, which concerns a very important effect of the proposal, namely, its protective effect, is governed by the Schedule. I presume we shall have an opportunity when we come to the Schedule of moving Amendments and raising points?

That is so. The hon. and gallant Member will not be precluded from discussing the effect of the modified Excise Duty when we come to the Schedule, but I do not think that there should be a second general discussion on the Question, "That the Schedule stand part of the Bill."

With your permission, Sir, may I put a further point. I am informed that the Chancellor is going to propose a wholesale revision of the Schedule, and in the event of the Chancellor altering the nature of his plans, it may be necessary to make some comment which would arise on the question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.''

Undoubtedly if, when we come to the Schedule, the Chancellor proposes Amendments, and if a new situation has been created, that, situation will be open to discussion.

I do not think you, Sir, have quite appreciated my point. I merely said that on the question of the Clause standing part, which is a general question, it might be necessary, if the Chancellor has made an announcement concerning these duties, briefly to review it without renewing the general discussion.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, to leave out the word "July," and to insert instead thereof the word "January."

I do so because, as one who has had 20 years' experience in the textile trade, I believe these duties will undoubtedly do a great deal of harm to the great woollen, worsted and cotton industries of this country. It should be remembered that we are now dealing with the first absolutely new industry which has been established in this country for a generation. When one looks back 20 years it is wonderful to note how this new fibre has interwoven itself with the older-established textile industries. A few years ago the use of silk or artificial silk was practically unknown in the worsted industry. Not a fragment of silk was used in the woollen industry when I first knew it, and, as I said on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, when the Bradford Chamber of Commerce invited samples for exhibition at Wembley, 95 per cent. of the samples submitted contained silk in one proportion or another. When a huge industry such as we have established in the West Riding of Yorkshire is using silk in 70 per cent. or 80 per cent of the goods produced, I think the Committee will realise that silk and artificial silk have established themselves to a great extent as a new industry.

At the present moment there are thousands of unemployed in the West Riding, and I feel as certain as one can feel when trying to peep into the future that the effect of these duties, both Customs and Excise, will be an increase in the number of unemployed. Frankly, that is my main reason for entering into this Debate. I have suffered my period of unemployment, and I do not want to see the number increased. When I am in my native city of Bradford and in the division of Shipley at week-ends, I see numbers of people waiting to register for their unemployment pay, and on such occasions I feel that it would ill become this House or any Chancellor of the Exchequer to take any step which might increase the number of unemployed. In Lancashire I believe there are something like 800,000 looms, and just one-eighth of that number are totally unemployed. To- day 100,000 looms are standing in the cotton industry. Within the past two years the use of silk as an admixture with cotton has increased 800 per cent. I suggest to the Chancellor that this is a dangerous tax which is going to damage our trade, export and otherwise, and whatever the people of Macclesfield or the manufacturers of Macclesfield may think, I state emphatically that the people of the West Riding, manufacturers and workpeople alike, are satisfied that this is a, dangerous tax which will do harm both to workpeople and employers.

I have been interested to read of the very clumsy method of drawbacks, and I have been trying to visualise what would happen if the scheme were put into operation. I wonder if the Chancellor knows, or if his representatives and advisers have ascertained, that the manufacturer is not the merchant, and that it is totally impossible for the manufacturer to produce his goods to have any knowledge of the ultimate destination of the goods which he produces. Let us assume that the manufacturer is going to make 100 pieces of cloth. He gets his imported artificial silk on which the duty has been paid. He immediately proceeds to make it into cloth, either woollen cloth, worsted cloth or cotton cloth. When he has produced those goods, he does not sell them abroad, he does not act as a merchant, but he usually sells those 100 pieces to a merchant, who then has to find the best possible market for them, either at home or abroad. But the man who makes the cloth has not the faintest idea what its ultimate destination will be. How can arrangements be made for a drawback prior to the production of the goods, when nobody knows, until the goods are sold, where they will go?

I understand the Shipping Merchants Committee have been considering this question of drawbacks, and I have only read it casually—I want to say here that I am basing the whole of my arguments upon my own personal knowledge of the textile trade, and not from the reading of any pamphlets or any information which has been sent—but when the Shipping Merchants Committee say that the system of drawbacks is hopelessly impossible, I say they are speaking on a subject about which they know something. The manufacturer sells his hundred pieces of cloth to a merchant, who has his agents abroad and who sends on the prices of these goods. He has to get to know the percentage of silk included in the manufacture, when it is a mixture of wool and silk or cotton and silk, and the trouble begins when he starts exporting the goods. I would like to know exactly how the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to get over the hurdle, say, of percentages. The drawback scheme lays it down that there shall be a certain percentage returned in accordance with the amount of the admixture of silk in the cloth, and when I say that 95 per cent, of the goods submitted to the Bradford Chamber of Commerce contained silk, I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit it is a very real difficulty. If a merchant of the size of A. and S. Henry exports two or three thousand pieces of worsted and woollen and cotton cloth abroad, each containing silk, how is the Chancellor going to get the percentage of silk? Will he take the merchant's word for it, and, if not, how will he do it? You cannot take a piece of cloth and look at it and tell straight away how much silk there is in it. A very elaborate process has to be gone through.

I happened to work for some time at the Bradford Conditioning House, which is the only place practically in England where they will give a complete analysis of the structure of any piece of fabric, whether woollen, worsted, cotton, jute, or anything else, and a very elaborate process has to be gone through. If the merchant says the cloth has only two or three or four per cent, of silk, the right hon. Gentleman will have to accept that statement, or else he will have to set up some elaborate machinery for testing these cloths to see whether or not the statement made is correct. I can foresee tremendous difficulties in that direction. I have been reading the particular part of the Bill relating to drawbacks, contained on page 21, where it states that there will be a drawback where you can test yarn for moisture. Under this system—I say this very definitely, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will test it—if yarn is imported into this country in any quantity, and the consignees state that there is, say, 12 per cent, of moisture in the yarn, the whole of that yarn will have to go to Bradford to be tested for moisture at the official place, the City of Bradford Conditioning House, which is the only one in the country. You can, if you like, ship it to Roubaix and get it tested there, but the only place in this country is the City of Bradford Conditioning House, and all this yarn will have to go to Bradford to be tested for the amount of moisture if a shipper states that the excess of moisture is above 11 per cent.

If there is any large amount of silk consigned to this country, where is the Chancellor of the Exchequer going to keep it until it is tested? Will he take the word of the shipper that it contains only 10 per cent, of moisture? If he is not going to establish a place to test it, what is he going to do with it? Will it remain in the ship? Will he erect new bonded warehouses, or put it in bond with tobacco and spirits, and let it come out smelling very nice and spirity before it goes to the factories to be worked up? Silk is not like tobacco. Silk comes in bales, and is very valuable. The raw silk, the real silk, when it comes to this country, is worth nearly three sovereigns per lb., almost 60s. per 1b. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to risk that stuff being smelly by putting it. into bond with spirits or tobacco? If he is not going to do that, what is he going to do? He will have to find some place to put it in until he tests it for moisture. I suggest that these are very real difficulties upon which the Chancellor has been very badly advised, but even if he gets over all these difficulties and establishes conditioning houses, and builds bonded warehouses, and does not deflect the import of silk from this country, where it ought to be imported, into, say, China or Germany or Italy, and let those countries make it up instead of our factories in the North, I suggest that he is importing a very new principle in this scheme of taxation.

I have always understood that the policy of the Tory party was to make things as difficult as possible for the foreigner and as easy as possible for those at home, but the right hon. Gentle- man is introducing an entirely now policy. He says to the merchant who buys, say, a hundred pieces of cloth: "If you can sell that cloth abroad, we will make it cheap for the foreigner, but if you dare to sell it in England, the English purchaser will have to bear the whole of the Customs Duty." That is exactly the position. Some 50 out of those 100 pieces may be sold abroad, and for those 50 pieces sold abroad, if the Chancellor can get over the hurdle of the drawback, the whole of the taxation paid on account of the silk which is used in that particular material will be returned to the merchants, and those goods will be correspondingly cheaper to the foreign purchaser, but if the whole of the 100 pieces are used in this country, the whole of the tax on account of that particular article has to be paid by the British consumer. I want to suggest to the Tory party that that is a fairly reasonable analysis of the case, and I want to suggest to this Committee that it is a very unreasonable position in which to put the people of this country. Tax the foreigner, if you like, according to the old slogan of the Tory party, but the new slogan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to tax the Britisher and let the foreigner off cheap. That is the position. It cannot be denied. The tax on silk turned into cloth and exported is received back by the manufacturer; but if the cloth is used in this country the tax on the silk remains, and the British consumer has to pay.

The intention is that there should be no impediment placed upon our competitive exporting power.

That may be the intention, but the fact is that the Chancellor is making our consumers pay in order that cloth may be cheap to the foreigner. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has proved my case for me. I want to introduce another interesting feature of this Silk Tax. When one takes a peep into the future, the possibilities are illimitable. Everybody knows who knows anything at all about the textile industry—I am sure the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) will know this. [HON. MEMBERS: "He does not know."] The hon. Member for Macclesfield says an expert cannot tell the difference between real silk and artificial silk, and so he must know something about it. Everybody knows who knows anything at all about textiles that silk is warm, and is good to protect the body, and wool is also warm and good to protect the body. Cotton and artificial silk, which have the same qualities as each other, are not quite so good for keeping the body warm. The reason why silk is so expensive is that it is light and has these heat-retaining qualities. It is possible that in the future chemists may get hold of some of the very fine merino wool, say 70'e or 80's, which is as fine as a spider's thread almost, and may by some chemical process, some chemical bath, give this very fine merino wool the pleasing effect of silk. What will the Chancellor of the Exchequer call it in that case? If wool were made as pleasing as silk, still retaining its capacity for warmth, what would the Chancellor of the Exchequer call it? Probably he would call it artificial silk. I suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is embarking on a very, very dangerous policy. Here is a new fabric which can be made out of banana skins or pit props or shavings—[An HON. MEMBER: "And politicians' hair!"]— even politicians' hair, as my hon. Friend says. If such a pleasant and useful fabric can be; made out of such crude materials, I suggest it is not beyond the bounds of possibility for the scientist of the future to make wool look like silk, and still retain its capacity for warmth. What will the Chancellor of the Exchequer do about it?

As one who has been out of work because raw material was not forthcoming, and remembering that in the old days Lancashire was hungry if cotton was not forthcoming and Yorkshire was hungry if wool was not forthcoming, I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is a very dangerous proceeding to tax a new raw material for which we are not dependent upon foreign production. At present the great textile industries of this country have got to depend on the Australian farmer to grow wool for them. Lancashire has got to depend upon the American cotton crop and the Egyptian cotton crop to obtain its cotton. Macclesfield and Leek used to have to depend upon the industrious silk-worm. Macclesfield and Leek do not now need the silk-worm, they can make silk. There are great possibilities before us through the possession of a new raw material which can be created in any quantity in this country. I spent a few days in Leek last week, and I was told that until artificial silk came along Leek was going to the dogs. Now Leek is doing well again. I hope the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Bromfield) will explain why. It is because of the introduction of artificial silk. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer is only taxing artificial silk because it is pleasing to the eye.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer is taxing it because he wants money. May I refer the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a suggestion which he will find in the Report of the Food Commission. It is a very interesting suggestion made by the chairman, who said:

"Theory and practice teach us that prices are normally determined in a competitive market by the lowest price which the marginal producer or seller will accept. An indirect tax on food or any other commodity affects the cost of the marginal producer, as well as every other producer, and therefore tends to be added to the price. But as Professor Seligman puts it: 'A tax on income is a tax on net profits; and net profits are not costs, but the surplus over costs. A tax on profits cannot reach the man who makes no profits.'"

I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if he wants money he should go where money is. It is no good looking to a nebulous something which may eventually reach the point where some revenue can be produced. It is dangerous, also, to try to obtain the money by a method which may cripple industry. The great success of the Bradford textile trade at a time when all other industries were slumping is largely to be accounted for by the fact that by a skilful admixture of cotton with wool, of cotton with silk, and of wool with silk new markets were reached which hitherto had not been reached. Our most dangerous competitors in this respect are Germany and Italy. Germany and Italy are making a big effort to secure this industry. They are after our foreign markets, and they are going to get them if the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes things more difficult than they are for British producers.

He is going to give them a great advantage by putting a tax on raw material! I cannot see it. I would suggest to him very sincerely—and I would talk it over with him personally, with my personal experience of the trade —that he cannot get a satisfactory system of drawbacks by any means whatever. It is totally impossible for him or anybody else to arrange a scheme of drawbacks whereby a person can recover the tax paid on the silk or the artificial silk that is inside the goods.

4.0 P.M.

When a new industry comes along a real statesman would give it his hand and say, "Come along, I will help you to establish yourselves, I will help you to get trade." Instead of that the Chancellor is making it almost impossible for this young and growing industry to carry on. I should imagine that the cotton-growing syndicates in America and in Egypt will be rubbing their hands over this taxation. I should imagine cotton growers will be delighted, because this is a new material which can be used in Lancashire and might eventually take the place of cotton. There is no reason why in the future silk should not take the place of the cotton grown in America and in Egypt. We can do exactly the same things with silk on the loom and in the spinning frame, and also on the stocking knitting frame, and the articles look far nicer. Therefore, I suggest the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have taken the industry by the hand. I am not speaking of Courtaulds. I am not speaking of the great syndicates holding the industry to ransom. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants money he ought to tax Courtaulds' profits. He ought not to tax the people who are going to handle the fabric after Courtaulds have done with it. I suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should follow the line indicated in the Food Commission's Report. The Bradford Chamber of Commerce recently spent £22,000 in arranging a mannequin display at Wembley. They went to the expense and trouble of getting first-class designs of dresses and of cloth, and of getting graceful ladies who would be adorned with these clothes in order to try to make Bradford cloth popular. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to take a further sum from them and make it difficult for them to sell their cloth. It is not fair to the industry. I want to suggest to him that it is going to be very difficult for our people, because 3d. a yard is going to make a difference in the selling price of the goods. I might refer him to a difficulty like this. Wholly discharged or partly discharged yarn is going to have a tax of 6s. 8d., and, if any manufacturer makes goods out of that cloth and re-exports them, he is going to have a rebate of 5s. 6d. In Part I of the Second Schedule, hon. Members will find that yarn wholly or in part discharged is to pay 6s. 8d. duty. Then, if they will look at Part II, they will find that the amount of the drawback "in any other case" is 5s. 6d. I only went through it carelessly, but that immediately struck my eye. The drawback cannot possibly compensate the manufacturers for the goods that they have produced. May I very seriously suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has taken a wrong turn. It is not the first that he has taken, but this definitely is a wrong turn to take. He is breaking down one of the policies which has helped to make this country big and which has helped us to get the export trade. He is definitely taxing not only a raw material, but also a completely new raw material, new raw material for which there are great possibilities. I suggest to him that the amount of money that he is going to get from this tax is infinitesimal compared with the amount of damage that he will do to the industry.

I have listened to a very convincing speech which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have some difficulty in meeting. Personally, I had considerable sympathy with the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he originally introduced his scheme. There was something attractive at a time like this about taxing luxuries, and the amount of money spent by the fair sex upon silk seemed to provide a very useful sort of revenue. But the last month's experience has indicated that, while these things look very simple so long as you are talking about an abstract principle, when you come to apply them all sorts of difficulties arise. The textile trade—not only the piece goods but the made-up goods and all the things connected with the trade—is probably the largest, industry in the country. There is no industry which requires more technical knowledge to understand it and which is more liable to be upset by amateurs trying to interfere with it, regulate it, and put it right. It seems to me, therefore, that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer attempted to deal with such a great industry, he ought to have taken careful advice, and to have been very sure of the ground on which he was standing.

The one thing which has surprised me has been the composition of the Committee upon which apparently he has been depending for his technical information. First and foremost, the British Silk Association have been present, I think, in all the Committees which he has consulted. It is a very significant thing that the British Silk Association have been a constant and persistent advocate of a protective tariff, and it is not surprising, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to modify his original proposal, that they lent very willing ears to the new scheme which takes the form of providing protection for the industry. The other representative organisation that has been very prominent in these consultations is the British Celanese Company. That company, I have a shrewd suspicion, has had a good deal to do with the origin of these taxes. In the first place, it has a very intimate association with the Government. The Government have their official representative on the board of directors. Not only that, but the Government have embarked some of the nation's money in the concern. They hold considerable shares, which, unfortunately, have not proved a very profitable investment, and which have had to be written down by the State in order to get their proper valuation. It has been a very unfortunate experiment in Socialism or State trading, because, in spite of the £6,000,000 invested in the concern, the British Celanese Company have never been able to pay any dividend either to the State or the ordinary shareholders. I have turned up the return in the Stock Exchange Year Book, and it is quite clear that they have never been able to pay a dividend. On the other hand, Courtaulds is one of the most successful British companies that has come into existence for many years past. It is an old concern which has been established for very many years. It became famous years ago for the manufacture of silk crepe. When crepe went out of fashion, it re-organised its machinery, introduced science, and got the advantage of expert chemists, and now an English board of directors practically controls the manufacture of viscose throughout the world. While the British Celanese Company have taken a prominent part in approving the Schedule to the Bill and while the British Silk Association have played their part, Courtaulds have been distinguished by their absence. Perhaps it is because that company, being able to show by successful management that it was a profitable concern, has not been so willing to lend itself to the protectionist ambitions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I want to put the case against the duty not so much on the ground of the home trade. I can appreciate that the home trade is a very important factor in our industry, but, while I consider it is unsound to put a tax on an important article of general use like artificial silk, after all it is a burden that has to be borne by somebody, and, though I am against this particular method of taxation, it will not be a serious burden to the nation. On the other hand, when you look at the export trade that is quite another story. Everybody knows that the real cause of unemployment at the present time is not the depression in our home markets but the depression in our foreign markets. Somehow or other we have to find means to pay for the imports of food or raw material that are necessary for our existence, and we can only do that by our exports of manufactured goods. Our cotton trade, our woollen trade, and our iron and steel trade are every year experiencing more and more difficulty to find markets for their goods owing to the general European depression that is reflected right throughout the civilised world. Therefore, when you attempt to put on a tax that may interfere only in a small degree with the prosperity of one of our great export trades, you have to investigate it most carefully, and the Committee should certainly view it with very grave suspicion. The right hon. Gentleman has tried, by concessions here and concessions there, by producing the Excise, by making provision through the Customs authority for elaborate forms for drawbacks to meet the criticism of Lancashire, Yorkshire, Leek, and all the great textile industries, that this duty will seriously interfere with their export trade.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said—he interrupted the hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Mackinder) this afternoon to say—that it will not interfere with our export trade, because of the elaborate provisions made with regard to drawbacks. But it is not the simple thing which it seems to be at first sight. If the whole of the cloth containing artificial silk went out in the form of piece goods, then perhaps it would be possible to provide by Customs forms and regulations for the manufacturer to get a drawback from the Customs, but anybody who has studied the textile trade as I have or who has been in any way connected with the export trade knows that a comparatively small proportion of the material made either from silk or artificial silk goes out in the form of tissue or piece goods. It would be interesting to trace what becomes of the output of the factories in Silsden, in Lancashire, and in Yorkshire who are using this artificial silk. It may be that in many cases only 40 per cent. or even less of the tissue or piece cloth is actually artificial silk, but whether it is only 40 per cent. or wholly silk that piece cloth is made out perhaps of artificial silk largely bought from abroad, because, owing to the immense demand, ordinary users of artificial silk have had to be rationed. One manufacturer told me the other day that the percentage of supplies that he had been able to get was less than 40 per cent.; in order to meet the demand, 60 per cent. has to be imported from abroad.

When a piece of cloth is treated it probably goes to one of the large warehouses in Manchester, Bradford or London, and there it is sold to a maker-up of the thousand and one garments used by women, such as jumpers, blouses, dresses and all kinds of garments. These are sold probably not to the home trade or to the large emporiums which advertise in the newspapers, but they are sent abroad to South African shippers or to Australian or New Zealand shippers, who buy these goods from the maker-up. When the exporter comes in he buys these garments in competition with goods from the continent of Europe. A great part of the ladies' garments trade up to a very few years ago was centred in Paris, Brussels, Vienna and Berlin, and only a comparatively small portion was centred in this country. During the last few years, more especially since the War, in the East End of London there has been an immense development in the manufacture of ladies' garments for export, and that development has been largely assisted by developments in the manufacture of artificial silk.

Now, when the exporter comes to buy these goods in competition, he will have to consider the price, and the English manufacturer, having had to pay this duty, or, rather, having had to buy cloth upon which the duty has been paid for the raw materials, will find that the English price is higher than the Belgium or the Brussels price. In the past, one reason why the English manufacturer was able to cut out German, French and Austrian competition is that he was able to buy his raw materials in a free market, and although he might be paying higher wages, rents and higher rates than his foreign competitors, owing to the fact that he could buy his material in the open market, the English manufacturer in the past has been able to cut out his foreign competitors most successfully.

I have been told by exporters that it will be next to impossible to trace to its source the amount of materials which is liable to be taxed, it will mean so many forms, invoices, applications, and inquiries that the actual result will not be worth the trouble. I am afraid that these proposals will strike the death-blow to a trade which is a comparatively new and prosperous industry, and which at any rate is some compensation for the trade depression which has existed since the War. In the East End of London and in South London and North London, there has been hanging over us for the last four years a great trade depression, and there has been no better view on the horizon than the development of the trade of these small manufacturers.

It is marvellous what these men, with such courage and tenacity and with little hope of improvement, have accomplished. One of the explanations is that whilst thousands of men are out of work some of our manufacturers have taken advantage of the free markets and Free Trade and this has enabled them to give employment to thousands of women, who have been able to help to keep the homes going, and this has saved London from something very near a revolution. I think it is a most unfortunate thing to say to these small manufacturers, "We are going to impose a tax on you which will handicap and worry you, and in many cases bring your industry to a standstill." For these reasons I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, before it is too late, will be very wise to drop these taxes

There is one other aspect which I want to put to the Financial Secretary, and it refers to the textile trade. London has always been the wholesale emporium of Europe, and the wholesale distribution of textiles has been centered largely in the centre of London. London largely owes its prosperity to the fact that it is a great emporium. London is also a great port, but it is not a great manufacturing centre, and it depends for its existence on the whole of Europe, and many countries abroad buy their goods in the warehouses of the City of London. Northern Europe sends to London for its supplies of all kinds of textile goods, and so does Italy, Switzerland, France and Germany, and in those countries our textile goods are sold over again, not only to the Dominions, but also to other countries in the North of Europe. This trade gives employment, not only to clerks and buyers and sellers, but also to packers, case makers, dockers and, above all, those who are engaged in shipping. That has been mainly due to the fact that London has been a free port. Go to any great London warehouse and you will see it full with piece-goods of ribbons, silks, laces and various other articles. Now the Government is coming along with a new tax, and it will no longer be profitable for the merchants of Northern Europe and our Dominions to come to London to make their purchases, because they will be forced by the interference of the Customs authorities to divert trade to the country of origin.

I have here an instance of how the duty will work. Here is a piece of artificial silk lace. This may be considered an article of small importance, but it is very interesting to know how it will be affected by this tax. This is an article manufactured in England and not abroad, but a large quantity of similar articles are manufactured abroad. The question I want to ask is, will it come under the category provided for under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and, if so, will it be subject to the 33⅓ per cent. duty under that Act, and also subject to the special duty as being an article manufactured from artificial silk? I think that is an interesting point which is worth consideration.

At the same time this article is not necessarily used in the piece, but it is used on clothes of all kinds which are largely stocked in London. At a time when trade is depressed and business difficult to get, when exports are difficult to keep up and trade is disorganised, here you come along with State interference and apply Regulations involving the filling up of a number of forms, and you are thus making the transaction of trade more difficult. If this tax is the only conribution towards the solution of the unemployment problem which the Government can make, then I think they are taking a very unwise step. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will listen to sound advice before it is too late, and drop these taxes, thus avoiding the ramifications and difficulties involved, and although this will mean the loss of a certain amount of revenue it will prevent a great injury being inflicted on our great textile and export trade.

I am sorry to say that I shall have to link myself with those who are opposed to this duty. I would like to say, however, that if there were anything which would make me hesitate about taking that course it is the wild exaggeration contained in the speech to which we have just listened. I do not consider that any cause is advanced when we hear such an array of misstatements, misdescriptions and exaggerations as those contained in that speech, in which there is hardly a single sentence that has dealt with the subject we are discussing.

The manufacture of artificial silk has provided a great amount of employment, and we feel that this tax ought not to be imposed. The method of imposition of the tax is wrong, the drawbacks are very difficult to work, and we feel that the imposition of an excise duty is something which ought not to have been considered by the present Government. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment has had some experience of trade in Yorkshire, but I must confess that I could not follow him when he dealt with the great fundamental difficulty which would exist in finding out what was the amount of moisture in some particular textile article. In this case the hon. Member made a statement which has no justification in fact, because every up-to-date manufacturer concerned in this country has on his own premises an arrangement by which he can test the moisture either of the raw material or of the finished article. Therefore there is no foundation for the suggestion that immense difficulties will be placed in the way of trade in this way. I also find it very difficult to follow the suggestion that it is impossible to distinguish the quantity of the components of any article. Every manufacturer knows when he is quoting for an article to an adjustable fraction exactly what the constituents of the texture is going to be, and it is the simplest thing for the components of artificial silk or of silk to be ascertained in that way in any particular article.

I find difficulty, however, in supporting this tax because it is not going to foe, so far as the drawback to the export trade is concerned, a revenue-earning tax at all. I think it will be generally admitted that 60 per cent. of the textile products of Lancashire are exported. Under these circumstances what is going to be the position? The Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to give 5 per cent. more than he receives for 100 lbs when 60 lbs. of the goods are exported out of the country. Let me make that point a little plainer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is charging an Excise Duty of 1s. per lb., and giving a rebate of 1s. 9d. per lb. Now he gives 105s. on 60 per cent. exported out of the country, say, for 60 lbs. exported. He is drawing for 100 lbs., 100s., and therefore he is 5s. out of pocket on that transaction. Then there is the difficulty of the competing manufacturer. If a manufacturer in Lancashire is not selling for the export trade, and his whole production is for the home trade, in competing in the home market he is unfairly penalised by the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The person who has produced 100 lbs. of this artificial silk content, of which he sends 60 lbs. abroad, has 40 lbs. free of any duty, whereas the man who has made the product wholly for the home market has to compete with a 40s. disadvantage against him, or 1s. per lb. of duty. That is a very serious consideration to those people engaged in the home trade, and the Lancashire textile trade is largely worked in sections. One man will have seven-eighths of his production devoted to the home trade, while another man will have seven-eighths of his production devoted entirely to the shipping trade. So that you are going to penalise the individual who is making for the home trade only, and I would suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might very easily further consider the position.

Then, is this duty not entirely a Protective duty? I am not a Free Trader. I am sorry that the Excise Duty is brought in. I suggested in the speech I made on the Second Reading of the Bill that the Excise Duty should be dropped altogether, and that we should get down to, say, a 10 per cent. countervailing duty on all goods coming into the country, to countervail the taxes which our own home producers are paying, as a revenue tax, and not as a protective tax. I suggest that there is less Protection in that suggestion and in that scheme than there is in the scheme put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If you have a piece of these goods made at home, and a piece imported, what is the position, say, on a piece costing 50s. and weighing, say, 16 lbs. per 100 yards, of which the silk content is 25 per cent. You there have 4 lbs. of artificial silk content. The duty on Courtaulds or Celanese is 1s. per lb. If that article can be produced, under existing conditions, for 50s., then you have 4s. added, which makes the article on the British market 54s. You have the same article produced on the Continent at 50s., and it is subject to a 4 lbs. duty at 3s. 6d. per lb. So that the foreign article when it reaches the British market has to bear a tax of 14s., as against 4s. for the home-made article. The home-made article can be placed on the market, tax included, at 54s., while the foreign article can be placed on the market for 64s. If that is not Protection, I fail to understand the term. I recognise that a pledge was made that we would not have Protection in this Parliament, and the extent to which I could go in supporting the duties would be to have a revenue duty for purely revenue purposes, and not for protection. I am sure that the Chancellor would then receive a larger net contribution of revenue, and do away with these disturbances and fluctuations of trade which will arise from this proposition. I do hope that even now he may feel it wise to reconsider his position.

There is only one point in the speech to which we have just listened which I should like to correct. That is the statement the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington) has made, that 60 per cent. of the textiles of this country are exported. That may be perfectly true about cotton and other textiles, but it is certainly not true about artificial silk. My information, and I think it is correct, is that not more than 5 per cent. of artificial silk yarns produced in this country is exported from this country, and therefore I think all the arguments the hon. Member used on this matter are absolutely falsified on the ground that the tax will be borne by the people who use it in this country. I should like particularly to refer to the speech we have also listened to from the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mac-kinder), who made the very emphatic statement that these taxes were going to cause very grave injury to the trade of this country. But, apparently, the Labour party speak with two voices in this matter, because I see that a Labour meeting was taking place in my constituency during the last few days at which the prospective Labour candidate for the Macclesfield Division asked his-hearers to reserve their judgment on the Silk Duties, and went on to say that if these duties caused increased employment he would say myself, but whoever it was I am quite sure that when we have had a trial of the duties they will go a long way to prove the futility of the arguments put forward this afternoon. The second thing which the hon. Member did was to give a long story of the terrible difficulties—he referred to them as tremendous difficulties —which the duties were going to give rise to. He spoke about the difficulty of a manufacturer selling goods to a firm of merchants, and said, for example, that if a manufacturer sold 100 pieces of cloth to a merchant he did not know whether those goods were going away for export or were for sale in this country. I cannot see there is any difficulty whatever in this matter because the manufacturer and the merchant, whoever exports the goods, has to provide precisely the same details as is done at the present time when there is no duty, for if they are going to export goods, and those goods have to go to a country where there is a hostile tariff against them, they would have to provide exactly the same details as they would have to provide to the British Customs for the purpose of exporting these goods to a foreign country.

Then there was a long story which he told about the conditioning warehouse in Bradford, and in which he stated that the only conditioning warehouse in the whole of Great Britain was in the City of Bradford, and further that in the case of the exporter who has to export 2,000 pieces of cloth, there would be a difficulty in having these tested. Really he must come forward with a little bit better story than that. When a manufacturer exports these goods it will not be necessary for him to have the whole of the 2,000 pieces tested. All that it will be necessary for him to do is to have tested a small sample of the goods he proposes to export, and that can be done quite simply in small conditioning warehouses at any of the ports.

A further story which shows the exaggeration of the hon. Member was when he referred to real silk of the value of 60s. a pound. I have no connection personally with the silk trade, but I was so alarmed at that statement that I went upstairs to the Gallery to provide myself with a little better information, and I have been informed that there is no silk produced at more than half of the figure he has named, and even that would be a very exceptional case. He also made a statement with reference to the samples which were produced at Wembley, and stated that 95 per cent. of the wool samples exhibited there contained some form of silk fabric. I do not know whether it was intended to infer from that that 95 per cent. of the fabric produced in Yorkshire contained some form of artificial or raw silk. But I can assure him from the information I have secured that that is a very considerable exaggeration and not a fair proportion at all of what the fabrics produced in Yorkshire contain.

It must be increasingly obvious to everybody that this outcry which has taken place over these Silk Duties has been one of the biggest stunts which has taken place within the political history of this country. I think it is quite obvious that that stunt is fizzling out very badly. It is fizzling out because the public did not understand the proposals put forward, and because the manufacturers did not understand the advantages which the duties gave. I should like to say to the Committee that when I last spoke on the Ways and Means Resolution, I asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give certain concessions in connection with these duties, and I can say, with the authority of the Silk Association to whom I was speaking on that occasion, that these concessions have been met to the full. I take this opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman, not only for giving these concessions, but also for the courteous way in which he received all the depurations who went to meet him. I can say also, as far as the silk trade is concerned, that there is practically no one left in the whole of the trade who is opposing those duties. It is quite true that a few disgruntled Radicals in Lancashire are trying to make this into a very big political issue. I would say to those Radicals that if they want a fight on this issue, after the duties have been tried, I am not afraid in the least of the ad-vantages which are going to come to the country and to trade as a result of their being imposed.

I should like to refer to the speech made by the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. Briggs) a few days ago on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. In the course of that speech he stated that the Silk Association had made a statement in which they said they did not represent the artificial silk manufacturers. As a matter of fact I think the hon. Gentleman has found a mare's nest, and perhaps I may be allowed to explain to him and to the Committee that after I had spoken on the Financial Resolution, the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) put a question to me as to whether, when I was speaking on behalf of the Silk Association, I was speaking for real silk or artificial silk manufacturers. I replied that I was speaking for manufacturers of both artificial and real silk, and the following morning Messrs. Courtaulds came out with a disclaimer, in which they said that I was not speaking on their behalf. There then arose the difficulty of defining what was an artificial silk manufacturer. There was the manufacturer of the artificial silk yarn, and there was the man who bought the products of Messrs. Courtaulds and others and made them, as my hon. Friend knows well, into other fabrics and other goods. Therefore, for the deliberate purpose of making it perfectly clear, these two classes were referred to as manufacturers of artificial silk and users of artificial silk.

As my hon. Friend knows very well, there are only four or five firms in the country who manufacture artificial silk yarn, and at the present moment I believe—and here I am going to reply to the interjection we heard a few moments ago—that there is no opposition of any kind from any one of those four or five manufacturers. I do not, however, claim to speak for them; I only claim to speak for the Silk Association, that is to say, the users of artificial silk and real silk. The Silk Association represents the whole of the real silk manufacturers, and they are supporting the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the present time. They and other associations who are supporting the Chancellor represent the users of 90 per cent. of the artificial silk, and those users of 90 per cent. of the artificial silk are also supporting the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the present time. Let us see how the users of 90 per cent. of the artificial silk can be defined. There is Leicester, with a great hosiery trade, and their trade association have passed a resolution supporting the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Then there is the Leek Manufacturers' and Dyers' Association, who have also passed a resolution that, in view of the concessions he has given, they are prepared to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Again, the great industries in my own constituency, of Macclesfield and Congleton, all support, as they have done throughout, the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In addition, in Lancashire and Yorkshire, about which so much fuss has been heard, there is, to my knowledge, a very large degree of support.

I want to refer again for a minute to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley, as I read a very interesting interview that he gave to a paper which does not usually represent his views, namely, the ''Manchester Guardian." In the course of that interview he stated that he had not visited Manchester since the Silk Duties had been proposed. Unlike my hon. Friend, I have visited Manchester four or five times since these duties have been proposed, and I have discussed the matter with very many people, often with people who have been at the start very violent opponents of the Chancellor's proposals, and in every single case in which I have discussed this matter with friends of mine in Manchester they have, when it has been properly explained to them what the Chancellor is really proposing, come to a different opinion. I have no hesitation in saying that the Manchester opposition, about which we have heard so much, is very greatly exaggerated by my hon. Friend and by other people in the Manchester district. I have in my constituency 6,000 voters who are also voters in Manchester, and, therefore, I am deeply interested in the Manchester point of view. I have no hesitation whatever in saying that that new has been very greatly exaggerated, both in the public Press and, if I may say so without offence, by my hon. Friend.

There is one other thing to which I desire to refer, and that is a letter which my hon. Friend has written to a firm in my constituency—he sent it by express letter, requesting an immediate reply— asking whether they opposed the duties. When my hon. Friend spoke last in this House, he said that one large manufacturer in Leek was opposing the duties. I do not know whether the activities to which I am referring are part of the same procedure which he has adopted with the pity, from the point of view of giving information to this House, that, having stated the opinion of one large manufacturer in Leek, he did not also state the opinion of the one large firm of manufacturers in Macclesfield, who sent him a very strong reply, giving their views as to what the artificial silk taxes meant to them and warmly expressing their opinion of their utility. There is one final thing that I want to say about my hon. Friend. In the interview in the "Manchester Guardian" he made the suggestion that taxes on raw materials should be removed. I have always understood that my hon. Friend, unlike myself, claimed to be an unrepentant Free Trader; but, if you remove the taxes on the raw material, his proposal becomes—he said he would be prepared to support the rest of the Schedule—pure, unadulterated Protection of the finest type. I cannot understand how he can claim to be consistent when, while declaring himself a Free Trader, he is prepared to support Protection of that kind.

It cannot be too often stated that these are not Protectionist duties. They are revenue duties. It is true that possibly they have a flavour of Protection about them, but they are mainly revenue-producing. In conclusion, I should like to emphasise what I have previously stated in this House about the beneficial effects which have taken place in the silk industry since the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Budget, and which are still going on. There are three other firms to my knowledge, in addition to the two that I mentioned on a previous occasion, who have already started very large extensions in their factories, which will lead to a very large increase of employment in this country; and if the challenge is thrown down, either by the Liberal party or by the Socialist party, I am not afraid of a fight upon this issue, because I am sure it will be of great advantage to the working people of this country.

I feel that this matter is one on which I ought to speak, because I do know something about the textile industry. I think I know a little more about it than the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), and I know the feeling of Lancashire better than he does. With me, one of the chief things is not the question of Free Trade or Protection. I know that hon. Members opposite are Protectionists, but I am not, nor am I a Free Trader. What I am looking for is an improvement of conditions in Lancashire. When the hon. Member for Macclesfield suggests that the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington) knows no more about the cotton business and the textile business than he does, he is very greatly exaggerating, because the hon. Member for Rossendale, when he is not in this House, is spending all his time in that industry.

While thanking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the way in which he has met the people in the silk industry, I want to ask him also to meet representatives of the operative weavers of Lancashire. They have asked for an interview with him. I do not know whether they have yet had a reply or not, but they have hat1 no interview, and up to about a fortnight before the holidays they had not even had a reply. I do not know why nearly a million operatives should be ignored by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not very long ago I, as a Member of Parliament, was asked to attend a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, the Manufacturers' Association, the Spinners' Federation, the Bradford people and the dyers. They met here, and there was a very friendly discussion and an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The operatives want to know why they have not received permission also to come and meet him.

One of their great troubles in Lancashire in this matter is as to what is going to happen to the mills. No set of operatives anywhere since the War have suffered so much from unemployment as the textile operatives, and there is unemployment in their industry to-day. It is true that we had a trade, but that trade has gone from us, and we have had to start another, which this artificial silk has helped to be successful. I am afraid for the employers, and I am afraid for the operatives—and I speak for at least 100,000 of them. They feel that this is going to be a serious trouble for them. I would appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as I did on the Second Reading, to do nothing that is going to injure this growing trade. It is a trade which we have acquired, and I want the Chancellor of the Exchequer to understand clearly that by means of it we have been able to keep looms going which had previously been stopped. The plain work had gone into foreign hands, and we have had to go into fancy work. Now the "fancies" have gone, but artificial silk has come. I am not troubled like the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer). He is troubled about the silk trade. I am not troubled about the silk trade, which I agree is a luxury trade, but I am troubled about artificial silk. You might as well talk of including mercerised cotton, because that has a, glossy surface which can be made to look like artificial silk, while, on the other hand, artificial silk can be made to look like mercerised cotton.

It is one of the greatest mistakes to put on a tax which is going to interfere in any way with an industry that is growing. On the question of growing sugar in this country, and helping a new industry, I gave my vote feeling that we were right in developing industries in this country which we need, and in Lancashire and Yorkshire, whatever the hon. Member for Macclesfield may say, there is a strong feeling that this is going to injure very materially the trade of our country. This is the greatest export industry that there is in England to-day, and I hope and trust that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give it some consideration. I hope that when he comes to reply he will answer my question as to whether he will agree to meet the operatives. I do not see why he should not. They are anxious to put their point of view and I am afraid that a wrong impression will be created if he does not agree to meet their leaders on this matter. It is they who suffer most. The employer has suffered, but he has been able to afford it. If, however, the worker suffers through short time, he suffers in his bread basket, and his children also suffer. On their behalf I would appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make some concession on this matter.

5.0 P.M.

I speak as a cotton spinner and as a supporter of these proposed taxes. The reasons that have led me to this position I have given in a previous speech to the House, and I do not propose to recapitulate the argu- ments. I have heard the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), and, as far as I understood his argument, it was that these taxes would hinder the development of the artificial silk industry. That argument is most completely answered by arguments coming also from the Opposition, pointing out that the defects of this proposed legislation will be greatly to protect an already prosperous industry. Those two conflicting arguments are adequate answer in themselves, and I therefore now address myself to the argument which has been raised in connection with the repercussion of this proposed legislation on the cotton and woollen trade. Generally it has been stated that the silk trade and artificial silk trade may, possibly, be benefited, but that the greater woollen and cotton trades cannot be benefited by this legislation. But in making that general statement, no very detailed analysis of the situation has been put forward. It is true, that by completely ignoring the imported artificial silk yarn, a case can be made out that the rebates are too great, and it is true that by concentrating one's attention entirely on the home trade production, one can make out that the rebates are too small. But these partial views of the situation do not take into consideration the whole broad position, which is that the importation of artificial silk yarn was, approximately, 10,000,000 lbs. last year, and the total home production of artificial silk was, approximately, 21,000,000 lbs. So that we have, as regards artificial silk in relation to the wool and cotton trade, a very mixed position.

I turn my attention to the export trade. True, there is some danger, in connection with the export trade, but we have in front of us a very comprehensive system of rebates, a system which is cast in a very generous mould, which covers the cost of manufacture, which covers the overhead expenses in connection with increased capital, and which covers all incidental wastages in connection with manufacturing processes. From that point of view, there does seem no reason to doubt that the exporting power of the great cotton and woollen trade will be impaired, but I understand from this morning's paper that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to bring forward some scheme whereby cotton and woollen goods intended for export containing artificial silk will be manufactured and shipped under a through-ticket arrangement, and will not pay these duties at all.

With reference to the home trade, the effect of this taxation will be, I think, to decrease the demand for goods made wholly or partially of artificial silk, although it is much more likely to move down a demand. By "move down" I mean a demand will exist for commodities with a lower artificial silk content They will buy an article at a certain price, and, therefore, in the home trade the demand will be moved down. There can be no fear of foreign competition in the home trade, because, as has been pointed out so frequently, there is a deal of protection in the home market. So that in respect of the home market the English manufacturer is completely looked after, and the effect of this legislation will be to move down the demand in respect of the quality of the goods purchased. There will be a greater demand for cheaper textiles—cotton particularly—and I cannot imagine that cotton manufacturers, particularly engaged in their own trade, can really advance an argument against these taxes when they realise that there will be a greater amount of cotton in these goods.

The hon. Member for Shipley, again, made a very interesting reference to the foreign sources of supply of our great textile trades, the woollen and cotton trades. It is a very interesting point, but what is going to be the effect of this legislation? It is going to encourage the production of artificial silk in this country as against the importation of foreign manufactured artificial silk. In other words, it is going definitely to stimulate the production of raw material in this country apart from the production of that raw material in other parts of the world. So that in respect to this new and growing textile trade, we have got a source of raw material in our own country, and it is going to do the very opposite from what the hon. Member for Shipley said. It is going to put that new trade in a beneficial position, and not leave it, like the cotton trade, continually at the mercy of an ex- ternal supply. There were other points made by the hon. Member for Shipley mostly of a technical nature, in which I find myself in disagreement, particularly with regard to moisture.

Does the hon. Gentleman know of any place in this country where artificial or real silk can be tested for moisture except Bradford?

I know it is quite possible to erect such a place where it could be done. The fact that it is not done gives the House a very wrong impression, if it is imagined that it would be difficult so to do. With reference to the point regarding artificial silk being used on cotton-spinning spindles, the suggestion is ridiculous. Cotton-spinning spindles cannot use artificial silk. If the forecast of the future in respect of doing away with the cotton trade were true, there would be only one result, and that would be the scrapping of the whole of the most expensive parts of the capital in the cotton trade, namely, the cotton-spinning machines.

I find myself in general agreement with the proposals of this legislation. That does not mean that there are not certain points of detail in which, from a technical point of view, one would desire to see a slight alteration. I feel that if it could be practically worked, the woollen and cotton goods containing artificial silk of a less percentage composition than 20 should be put out of the operation of this legislation, it would be greatly to the good; but, in general, I am prepared to say I support this legislation.

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer first announced these proposals in his Budget speech, I was puzzled as to the reason he had done so. My first idea was that hi3 reason was an historical one. I thought that, owing to the history of the taxation of silk, he had chosen this substance in order to mark his conversion to Protection. But I had to disabuse myself of that idea, because he has told us that he is still a Free Trader. Then I thought that he was giving us an exhibition of his well-known Puritanical zeal, and that, owing to his desire for simplicity of life, and for levelling-up the classes, he was anxious to put a tax on anything that could be called luxurious, in order that he might bring down everything to a dead level. But I found later that he told us he thought that a tax would not make a great deal of difference to the amount of silk and artificial silk consumed, and, therefore, I was obliged to throw over that idea. I have come, therefore, to my final conclusion, which is that he is of opinion that there is not sufficient interest in politics among the women part of the population, and he has chosen the silk duties with the express purpose of rousing the interest of women in politics. I can imagine him saying, as we know he would: "Of course, these taxes will be unpopular, but what do I care about popularity? I am quite willing to immolate myself upon the altar of the political advantage of the country as a whole"; and, recognising that he might bring his party into unpopularity, he and the Prime Minister nobly decided to sacrifice all this consideration because of the advantage that would be gained.

I would venture to say to the right hon. Gentleman that no further sacrifice is required, because he has interested the women of all classes and all conditions, and he may now save himself from unpopularity by withdrawing this tax, and so save his party from the ignominy of the opposition of the women of the country. The fact is that there is scarcely a woman not affected by these taxes. Very likely there were a good number of people who, before these taxes were proposed, were under the impression that silk was a luxury which only affected the well-to-do women. I have made a good deal of inquiry amongst women of very much humbler circumstances, and I find that it is very much the reverse of the truth, and that women quite of humble means at the present time purchase silk material, because in many cases in the long run it is the. cheapest and simplest material they can buy. I will give an illustration. Working women quite commonly buy Japanese silk, and make up for their children garments which cost them only about 6s. for the whole garment. Thereby they have an article which lasts much longer than a cotton garment. Not only does it last much longer, but it is very much easier for them to handle in the wash-tub and in other ways, and as a result of that even natural silk in the form of Japanese silk is used to a very large extent by the working people of this country.

When we come to artificial silk, the case there is very much stronger still. I took the trouble to make inquiries in my own constituency, and I found there it was a very common thing for the factory girls to purchase artificial silk for the purpose of knitting themselves jumpers, in order to look neat and tidy when they went out, and for that purpose they purchased about a pound of artificial silk, and were able to make these up for themselves at anything from 8s. to 12s. or 13s. Surely, taking into account all the multitudinous things which the poorer people make out of silk, whether natural or artificial, the idea that silk is a luxury which is only used by the well-to-do is finally exploded. It may be perhaps suggested by some that, after all, this tax will not fall upon these users of artificial silk. I was rather amused just now when I heard an hon. Member opposite speak of consulting the users of artificial silk. It may be that technically the users are the people who employ the silk in their manufactories, but really the users of artificial silk, the great bulk of them, are the women of the country. There may be some people who imagine that these real users, the consumers, are not going to bear the burden of the tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I am sure, will not share that view, because he said himself, in one of these Debates, not only that the consumers would bear the burden, but that they were intended to bear it, and that was why he had put it on.

When we come to consider which of the consumers will bear the burden, I ask the Committee to bear in mind a further point. The richest people who use silk will in the main escape the tax because those classes make frequent journeys to the Continent. I do not suggest that they will go for the express purpose of buying silk to avoid the tax, but they make journeys to Paris and other parts of the Continent, and naturally they will purchase those silk articles there and bring them back. The Chancellor told us a few weeks ago that articles that were brought back on the persons of bona fide travellers would be free of duty. They will bring them back on their own persons or, having worn them once or twice, in their personal luggage, and again the Chan- cellor has assured us that reasonable facilities would be given them in that way, and in the course of the year they will be able to bring back a very considerable amount of silk in one or other of these ways. I believe something like one and three quarter millions of travellers arrive at these shores in the course of every year, and in consequence of that a very large amount of silk will be brought in free of duty by those people on whom, if there is any justification for the tax, it ought especially to fall. Then there is the further point that not only will these consumers of artificial silk in that way escape the tax, but the whole retail trade, which would under ordinary circumstances to a very large extent benefit by the sales to these people, will lose those sales. For every silk garment which is brought in on the bodies or in the personal luggage of travellers to and from the Continent there will be a loss to the retail trade.

The next point is that artificial silk pays a very much higher proportion of duty than natural silk, and, in consequence of that, those who have to use the cheaper form, which is the artificial material, will pay a very much heavier proportion than those who use the natural silk. Finally, the cost to the consumer in the aggregate will be very much greater than the total revenue of the tax. When the Chancellor introduced the original proposal he thought he had arrived at a very nice balance so that the worry, the trouble, the inconvenience and the loss in this way and that way to the manufacturers would be about met by the slightly lower rate of Excise which he was charging. Owing to the opposition of the trade he has had to make a very much further concession, and the trade now considers that, roughly speaking, they get about as much by this greater reduction in Excise as they lose in one way or another, but that does not mean that all that comes off the burden of the consumer. The fact that trade is only now just about even and that there will still be imports from abroad means that the actual loss to the consumer in increased price will far exceed the amounts obtained by the Revenue. The Chancellor, who says he is still a Free Trader, will, I am sure, remember that that is one of the great disadvantages that all protective taxa- tion brings about, and it is particularly true in the present instance. It may perfectly well happen that, owing to the immense growth of this trade, the price of artificial silk would naturally have come down, and it may, therefore, be that in a year or two's time, in spite of this duty, the cost of artificial silk may not be higher than it is at present.

But that does not in the least alter the argument that the imposition of these duties increases the price which would otherwise have been charged to the consumer, and in so far as it prevents a fall in price which would otherwise take place it is injurious in precisely the same way as if that had not been the case. You can see it perfectly clearly from the trade point of view. We have it on the authority of Courtaulds—and it seems to be a point we can very well accept from them—that while they kept up the price they could not get a large sale, but for a very small reduction in price the sales went up by leaps and bounds, and if the Chancellor had not interfered with this manufacture and had allowed the price to fall as it would naturally do we might have expected a very much wider increase. We all know that many firms manufacturing articles of silk have been making preparations for an enormous increase in manufacture. This is the trade the Chancellor interferes with at present. In a year or two, if the price is not much greater than it is to-day, he will come to the House and say what a great success he has had.

The fact that he says "Hear, hear!" will not make it true. It will be the reverse of the truth, because we have a right to say, "Here is a substance which is forming the basis of an important trade. Here is a substance which has been coming into larger use. Why tax that substance in order to check its growth"? It seems to me, so far from being a luxury, this substance manufactured as it is from the cheapest organic material we know, wood, ought to be the cheapest article of the textile trade. The Chancellor, by his tax, is interfering between this substance, which we can make in this country and raw materials of other kinds which we have to import from abroad. That inter- ference with trade seems to me to be a very serious thing.

There is this further point in connection with it. It is a very peculiar fact that the Chancellor makes no attempt, as far as I can see, to define this article which he proposes to tax, and it seems to me very doubtful whether you can put a tax upon an article without defining what it is. With the progress of science and invention there is every reason to suppose that the manufacture of artificial yarn of all kinds would be one of the great things of the future. Now comes the Chancellor, and he says he is going to tax artificial silk. Is he going to tax every form of artificial yarn which has a lustre? That is a point which not merely inside the House but traders and manufacturers will be very keen to know, and we have a perfect right to an answer to that question, which seems to me absolutely vital to the future of the textile industry.

There is an Amendment dealing with the point, and perhaps we had better go into it in some detail.

I shall hope when the time comes that we shall have an answer. I merely deal then with the general point that this taxation is striking a blow at what after all should be the cheapest form of textile manufacture and should therefore be of great benefit to the trade and a great benefit to the women who consume these textile articles. I have tried to speak not from the point of view of the manufacturers and the trade because that has been very largely covered by other speakers, but from the point of view of the consumers and to suggest that the tax is falling upon the wrong shoulders. I see no reason at all why the working women should be called upon to bear this extra burden because it is on their shoulders that a very considerable part of the burden will fall. The revenue from the tax is not so great that the Chancellor could not have found other means of making it. He is making large remissions of Income Tax and is giving a larger bonus to the Super-tax payer than he is taking off the Death Duties, and this is not the time to tell us he must put this tax upon working girls. I appeal, therefore, to the House to support us in negativing this proposal and in refusing to allow the Chancellor to hamper and injure the trade of the country and put this added burden on the backs of the working girls.

I want to put a point of view which, as far as I have listened to the Debate and those that have preceded it on the subject of the Silk Duty, has not yet been touched upon. That is the point of view of the retailer. No Chancellor of the Exchequer could bring forward a Budget such as this without having a good deal of criticism offered to it, in view of its novel features. The time to consider whether or not that criticism is just is, surely, not in the first few weeks, but to wait a little while, and allow opinions and views to crystalise. I think it is much more important that those interested in the various trades concerned have been able, in a calmer atmosphere, to see what the real final effect is likely to be of these silk taxes. I am associated in a humble way with the control and management of one of the biggest of our stores. We deal there to the extent of seven figures every year in goods which are sold to women. There is an additional advantage in getting information from a source such as that, that we have a big house in Paris, we have large houses in our Eastern Dominions and also provincial establishments, and I can speak from information that is gained from the management of these great establishments.

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had introduced a Measure which was going to send up the cost of clothing to the working girls in this country, it would have been a very wrong thing to do. That is obvious. I am surprised that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not come down to the House primed with real, authentic information, before they frighten these poor girls by telling them that their stockings, their blouses and jumpers are going to cost much more. One hon. Member spoke about the whole of the burden of the tax being placed upon the consumer. Why did not he go to the retailer and ask him whether he is going to sell his stockings and the other articles affected by this tax at these dearer prices? If I can say, as a definite fact, that the price of silk stockings is not going up at all, will hon. Members opposite accept that statement? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

That is the sort of statement that I desired. The late Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) says "No," and smiles. I wanted him to do that, so that I can give him the proof that I have. Let me deal with two points. I do not want to go into the incidentals of the silk trade, but to discuss the two main branches of the trade, natural and artificial silk. Natural silk almost in its entirety comes into this country manufactured. The amount that is manufactured here from the raw material is almost infinitesimal. The centres of the natural silk trade are the four great centres of Como, Zurich, Lyons and St. Etienne. These great Continental centres have as great a hold on the natural silk trade of the world as Lancashire has on the cotton trade of the world, and nothing that we can do is going to change that until we can get a great new industry started. Of that there is no hope whatsoever in the present circumstances. As soon as these people saw that this tax was likely to be put on, they put their heads together. I had an inquiry made in the first fortnight after the Budget was opened, and the result of that inquiry is contained in the following statement: concerned with the cheaper artificial silks.

Take the case of artificial silk. These foreigners have a monoply of the natural silk trade, and do precisely as they like in the matter. Yet, even so, they do not want to lose any market. They have competition here in the case of artificial silk, and they desire to retain their market, because they know that if they lose even a tithe of it, it means that they have lost a market in artificial silk. Contracts are being placed now, carrying on months ahead, which will mean that artificial silk stockings that are priced at anything from 2s. 11¾d. to 6s. 11¾d. will retain those prices without any advance. Do hon. Members realise that artificial silk stockings are coming from Germany at 7s. 6d. a dozen and are being retailed to barmaids and others at 2s. a, pair? There is scope here for a small tax, surely?

The only fault that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made, and it is a serious one, is to tell the country that he must have something out of the ladies. That is wrong. He will not get anything out of the ladies. He will get an advantage for the Exchequer, without harming anyone here. It is all very well to criticise the Budget, and it is all very well for hon. Members opposite to take up the Party standpoint, but when that is causing discontent in the country and they are rubbing that discontent in— [HON. MEMBERS: " Hear, hear! "] That is exactly what they are doing and without any basis whatever—then they are doing a very great wrong. One right hon. Gentleman opposite taunted the Prime Minister as to making speeches about "peace on earth." Hon. Members opposite are doing precisely the opposite. They are trying to make as much discontent as they can. Surely, in a case like this they could take the fair line, and come forward with proper information before they put forward suggestions which are causing great unhappiness among the very poor at a time when we want to keep as much happiness as we possibly can among them.

The hon. Member, who has just sat down, has assured us that from the point of view of the ordinary consumer there will be no hardship as far as the proposed tax is concerned. I agree that he had authority, according to the evidence he has given, for making that statement, but I am prepared to back my own experience against any statement that the hon. Member may make with regard to the consumer being affected by these duties. Already the consumer has been affected. May I give the hon. Member the result of an experience which I had, not in a village but in a Northern city with a vast population. A lady friend of mine went to one of the largest stores in that city immediately after the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been made known, and desired to purchase a pair of silk stockings. She was told that she could not be supplied. The reason was not given that they had not the goods in stock. I think the reason is obvious why they were not selling silk stockings at that particular moment. Already the consumer is being affected, from that point of view.

One hon. Member mentioned that the women of this country were going to be affected by this duty. I would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer and those who support this duty that the children are going to be affected very materially. I received the other day from a retailer whom I know very well, who is in a very large way of business in this country, samples of badges for blazers and caps for boys and girls attending school. He said that immediately this duty is imposed, if not before, the price of these badges will be increased. This duty is going to affect the very poorest consumers. It is going to affect not only the young people of the university and the children of the secondary school, but the children of the elementary school. The elementary school children are beginning to be proud of wearing the badge of the elementary school which they attend. That is a step in the right direction. They have upon their coat and their cap, both boys and girls, thousands of them I have seen in my own locality, badges made of artificial silk. The retailer says that the price of these badges of the elementary school children will be increased.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer is very proud of being thought an inventor, but I am afraid that I cannot give him credit for inventing the Silk Duties contained in the Finance Bill. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), apart from bringing a little heat into the Debate, brought a little light. He suggested that he spoke for the Silk Association. I think that conveyed a great deal, and I suggest that the real author of the Silk Duties is not in a remote connection with the Silk Association, and that he himself is an ardent Protectionist. When we speak of the Silk Association we have to remember that this particular organisation asked for protection through the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Unless I am misinformed, that is the position, and the case came before a Committee. The Committee was equally divided.

That is not quite correct. There was a Committee, but it was not under the Safeguarding of Industries Act.

My information is that an application was made by this particular association under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and the Committee was divided. The atmosphere then was not sufficiently sympathetic, but it is to-day. We have every kind of argument put forward. First, that these duties are not going to affect he consumer. Then the hon. Member for Macclesfield says that the duty is not going to affect trade and industry. I prefer to take the word of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—if I am correctly informed, which he-used when addressing some of the deputations that waited upon him—as to whether these duties will dislocate or injure trade, rather than the word of the hon. Member for Macclesfield. As an instance of the disturbance which these duties will have upon trade, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I am correctly informed, has decided to set up two Committees to deal with the operation of the duties, and of the most important Committee he has decided to be the Chairman himself. That Committee is to minimise the interference and disturbance which these duties will have upon industry.

We are told that it is only a few Radicals who object to these duties. If all the consumers I have come across who are against the imposition of these duties from the operatives' point of view, from the retailers' point of view, from the merchant's point of view and from the manufacturer's point of view, are all Radicals, then hon. and right hon. Members opposite have a very considerable-fact to consider. I have the honour to represent a division of the City of Bradford. That city is very much concerned with these particular proposals. It is not a question of Radicalism, but a question of bread and butter there. It is a question of these manufacturers being able to get sufficient trade to continue to employ thousands of people in the city of Bradford. Yorkshire and Lancashire manufacturers are in the same position. Speaking from the operative's point of view, this is a very serious thing. It is a question of bread and butter to the operative. These duties will have the effect of dislocating and crippling an important new industry and increasing unemployment in the industrial areas of this country.

I desire to utter a distinct and an emphatic protest against interference by any Government or Chancellor with a new industry. We are told that it will not affect the retailer or the consumer, but the Chancellor says that he wants the money. For what does he want it? A member of the Government, speaking in support of the Government candidate at a by-election, and trying to justify the inclusion of these proposed duties in the Budget, said, "Suppose they do increase the cost of the article to the consumers, surely they should be prepared to pay more for a pair of silk stockings if they know that the increased price was helping to pay for the pensions which the Government are going to give?" We know that none of the money provided under this Budget has anything to do with the provisions of the Bill for carrying out the Pensions scheme of the present Government, and when we have all these speeches and arguments put forward by the other side that we should take these duties as something which will increase trade, reduce the price of the commodity, and do everything that is good, then I look at them with great suspicion.

The Chancellor's favourite plan with regard to this Budget is trying to balance one thing against another, but he would have been wise if, instead of balancing Leek and Macclesfield against Lancashire and Yorkshire, he had paid a personal visit to Lancashire and Yorkshire, and Leek and Macclesfield as well, and found out for himself exactly how the duties would operate in regard to industry in those great counties and centres. We know that there are great industries in this country which are crippled at the moment, and large areas with large numbers of unemployed men and women, and there cannot be any doubt that the result of these duties will be to cripple a new industry, and a new industry that is based upon a raw material of a unique kind. There are different raw materials for various industries, the supply of which is varied by the vagaries of the season. If you have a bad season there is a shortage of supply, which leads to all kinds of difficulty. But the raw materials from which artificial silk is produced is not affected by any kind of season which we may have. This industry, instead of being interfered with by the Government, ought to be supported in every possible way, But the policy of the right hon. Gentleman seems to be, by imposing these duties, to balance an industry which is providing work for its workpeople against industries that are crippled by loss of trade.

There is a kind of horse which the horse dealers call the mug catcher, and it is balanced in this way. It happens to be lame in one foot, and the other is sound. By skilful manipulation a foreign substance is placed under the tender part of the shoe on the sound foot, with the result that when the horse is trotted out for a prospective purchaser, as he runs along some 50 yards, this foreign substance causes such pain in the sound foot, that it relieves the lameness on the other side and it is undetected, and the mug catcher is sold. These duties are arranged in this way. They are an endeavour to catch a few guileless people who have not taken the trouble to consult the manufacturers, the operatives, the retailers, or the others who are concerned in this matter. They are practically unanimous in Lancashire and Yorkshire—the Chambers of Commerce, the manufacturers and the operatives— against these duties being included in the Finance Bill. These duties will do a great injury to industry. It is no kindness to the people who are unemployed to-day, and the people who will be unemployed to-morrow, for this Government with their great majority and their great opportunity to impose these duties. If they want money, they can save some of the enormous sums of money which they are spending on armaments at this period when we ought to be cutting down expenditure on preparations for war, instead of putting on duties which will cripple industry, and bring more misery on the working classes.

I do not speak as a representative of a Silk Association, nor do I claim for one moment to be understood as speaking for either Free Trade or Protection. I approach this subject from the point of view of work, with the desire of maintaining to the fullest possible extent the work that already exists in the country, and with the view of increasing it as much as possible. Since this matter was last discussed in the House, a great change has taken place. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been learning things. Evidently he knows more about silk now than he did a few weeks ago. A modification of the duties has been introduced, with the idea no doubt of making the proposals more palatable to manufacturers and merchants. The proposals are now sugar-coated. But though they may be sweeter to the palate when the sugar flavour disappears, the position will be much the same as it was before. No amount of speech making or argument can remove the one central fact that even with the modifications, or any other modifications that may be suggested, the tax both on pure silk and artificial silk is bound to increase the price of the articles when placed on the market, and to have a very detrimental effect on trade.

Take first the case of silk proper which is said to be a luxury trade. It can, I think, be said truly that certain garments made from pure silk are luxuries, for example the silk dresses which one sees marked in shop windows at prices varying from £5 to £50. There may be some reason for saying that they are luxuries. But I would suggest that the Chancellor should have given forethought to the question from the point of view of trade and particularly of employment, which is and has been for a very long time very bad in the silk trade. Speaking for the moment off pure silk alone, personally I am convinced that these duties will reduce sales very considerably, and correspondingly reduce employment which is a matter of serious concern to those who will be directly involved. Even if a trade may be termed a luxury trade it ought not, in my judgment, to be subject to a tax which makes it more difficult for the manufacturers to sell the articles which they produce. If you make the price of your luxury prohibitive, then it is bound to affect the demand, and employment, which is my chief concern, is certain to be reduced.

Apart from luxury groups, so called, there are many other articles produced from pure silk which cannot by any stretch of imagination be called luxury articles. Spun silk threads come into this category. These threads are a necessity. They are used by tailors and dressmakers in all parts of the country. His Majesty's Government every year purchases large quantities of these threads for the Army, Navy and the Air Force, and they have never hitherto, so far as I am aware, been regarded in any sense as luxuries. They are used because of their durability. They are used, further, because the colour in the thread remains so long as the garment is fit to wear. Manufacturers have had for years a most trying time. I live in a town where these threads are largely manufactured, and I know from personal knowledge what an extremely trying time the manufacturers have had in order to keep their employees engaged in the production of these threads. I fear greatly that as a result of the tax the silk thread trade will be entirely lost, a thing which the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself will no doubt regret, and I hope sincerely that he will reconsider this particular part of his proposal before the end of the Debate.

Before leaving this question of silk proper, I desire to call the attention of the Chancellor to that part of the duties on yarn wholly or partly discharged. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment mentioned this in another way. On this particular yarn there is to be a tax of 6s. 8d. whether it be fully or partly discharged. I mentioned this matter in the last Debate. I. am assuming that the Chancellor intends to proceed with this proposal in some form or other. Not that I agree with him. I disagree with him completely. I am opposed to any tax on any raw material. But, assuming that he intends to impose an extra duty, he might reconsider the proposal in connection with this article of a duty of 6s. 8d. as a flat rate on yarn wholly or partly discharged. That is the part with which I am most concerned. Work is what i want to see extended in all parts of the country.

6.0 P.M.

In England we have a, large number of dyers, men who up to now have been dyeing huge quantities of the yarn received in this country from various parts of the world. I suggest to the Chancellor that undyed yarns ought not to be taxed at the same rate as dyed yarns. The proposal of the Bill is altogether wrong, and if the Chancellor persists in it, there can be only one result, namely, that the yarn will come into England in every case dyed and completely finished. That will mean that the men who up to now have dyed the yarns will be thrown out of work, a thing which in the present state of affairs ought not to be permitted for one moment. Work is of far greater importance both to employers and employed at this juncture than all the revenue which the Chancellor of the Exchequer can get from his proposed tax, which is not a great deal at the most. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give the matter more careful consideration than he appears to have given it hitherto, and that in the end he will make such proposals as will ensure that the dyeing of this yarn, which has been done in the main in this country for generations past, will be retained by us.

One other point in connection with the silk trade proper. Here I am treading on another hon. Member's ground, as the proposal affects the trade of Macclesfield. Perhaps I ought to have left this matter to the hon. Member for Macclesfield. I probably should have done so but for the horrible mess he made of his speech during the last Debate. The facts and figures he then gave were nearly all wrong. When he talked glibly, about 90 per cent. of the trade being in favour of the tax he was talking absolute moonshine. I was astonished at hearing such remarks from the lips of a gentleman representing a silk manufacturing constituency. They were, no doubt, due to lack of knowledge, and probably a little due to his anxiety to please the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government. I have not had the pleasure of listening to his speech to-day, but I sincerely trust that he said nothing which will cause him to-morrow or the day after to make further private apologies. In Macclesfield there is a large trade done in silk scarves for the Admiralty. I do not suppose it will be argued that this is a luxury trade, for I understand that the scarves are regarded as a necessity by the Admiralty because of their warmth and durability. What I fear is that the proposed tax may result in a discontinuance of the Admiralty orders. There is a glamour in this House and in all parts of the country for economy in Government Departments, for a saving here and a saving there. The Admiralty will no doubt feel, just as other Departments will feel, the force of the demand for a reduction in expenditure. If, as no doubt will be the case, the silk scarves hitherto purchased at a reasonable figure from Macclesfield are increased in price, there is a danger that that will be the case.

There is an average of eight ounces of silk in a silk service scarf. I understand that silk is to be taxed at 3s. per pound. To begin with, that means 1s. 6d. per scarf. What eventually will be the price of the scarf I do not know, but it is certain to be nearer double 1s. 6d. than the bare 1s. 6d. In view of the largely increased price of the scarves, will the Admiralty continue to purchase them? I hope they will, and so find work for men and women in hundreds in the town of Macclesfield. But I know that employers and workmen in Macclesfield are deeply concerned as to whether trade will be done with the Admiralty in future, in view of the increased prices that are bound to be charged for the scarves. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will note this point particularly. Personally, I am much afraid of the future of the silk trade after the imposition of these taxes. I hope sincerely that my fears are groundless. If, as I anticipate, the venture proves a miserable failure, I trust that when the next Budget comes along, if not earlier, the taxes will be completely dropped.

Now I come to the much discussed excise duty on artificial silk. As I said in the last Debate, I cannot for the life of me understand any politician, of whatever view he may be, producing a scheme of this kind, which is calculated to do disastrous injury to a trade that has developed wonderfully during the last few years. I can only hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, as has been suggested from many quarters of the House, see his way to drop this excise duty entirely, and allow this trade to be developed as it has been developed during the few short years it has been in existence. Practically none of the articles produced from artificial silk can be termed luxuries in any sense of the word. Dresses, jumpers, scarves, neckties, stockings and all kinds of underwear are now produced in scores of towns, not only in Macclesfield, but in growing numbers in all parts of the country. Nothing should ever have been suggested that would in any way hinder the development of a trade mainly carried on from start to finish in our own country. I know that the original proposals have been amended considerably, and, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will pardon my saying so, I think his case has been weakened considerably in this respect. From the beginning he has told the House that this taxation is for revenue purposes. The revenue which he will now get is much less than that which he would have received if his original proposal had been carried out. I understand that he was expecting to receive from the excise duty on artificial silk £2,500,000. He has reduced the excise duty from 2s. 6d. to 1s., and he must accordingly reduce his anticipated revenue from £2,500,000 to £1,000,000. With the reduction of the duty I am, of course, pleased, and I think the trade generally would thank him for the change that he has made. All those who are interested in the trade hope, however, that he will go still further before the close of this Debate.

Finally, I come to the question whether the trade will benefit or suffer. One thing certain is that prices will soar, despite the reduction in the Excise Duty. If you increase the price of any article it is not sold so readily, and if sales are decreased there is bound to be less employment. I have no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be the last person in the world to desire to see more unemployment in this particular trade. Therefore, I ask him seriously to reconsider his decision in respect of artificial silk. It is said that the taxes now proposed are so small as not to affect to any great extent the price of the article, and consequently it is urged that the trade will not be disturbed in the least. Let me examine that contention for a moment. Take the case of artificial silk dresses. I know what I am talking about, and I defy the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the hon. Member for Macclesfield, or any other Member of the House to dispute what I am about to say. Artificial silk dresses manufactured in the town of Leek are sold to the wholesalers at the price of £l. Is that a luxury article? No one can say that it is.

What is going to be the price if the duty goes on despite the fact that it has been cut down to 1s. per lb.? It means that as these particular dresses work out at about one lb. per dress there will be a direct tax upon them—because Messrs. Courtaulds will naturally pass it on to the manufacturer—of 1s. per dress. Then the dress will have to pass through various hands before it reaches the wearer, and we may take it that in every case there will be an addition of 25 per cent. to the price before it gets to the actual wearer. That dress, with the additions which are bound to be placed upon it by the wholesaler and the retailer will cost at least 30s. to 35s. as against £l. Hon. Members smile. If they do not believe me, let them come along with me to the town of Leek, where we will show them the articles being produced, cut and weighed, tell them the selling price, and they can add for themselves the percentages put on by the wholesalers and retailers before the dress gets to the purchaser. Jumpers take an average of one lb. of silk per jumper. There may not be one lb. of silk in the jumper when it is worn by the lady who purchases it, but we have to consider the paring away and cutting away which is necessary in the making of the garment. This takes away so much material called waste. As a matter of fact, there is about one lb. of artificial silk to every jumper put on the market. Prices to-day vary from 7s. 6d. to 14s. or 15s. Hon. Members should realise that if this tax is put into operation the price of these jumpers will not be 7s. 6d. to 15s., as at present, but will be nearer £l to 25s.

There is also the question of scarves which are worn by the million in this and other countries. The scarf weighs in the first place somewhere about 1 lb. You have again to add the duty with the other charges which are put on as it passes through various hands until it gets to the wearer. Scarves are bound to go up by from 2s. 6d. to 4s. 6d. each. Then we come to the matter of stockings. We are told that stockings are going to Toe placed on the market at the same price. It is the first time I have known manufacturers to give something for nothing. Let me tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer that every pair of stockings made in this country will cost the manufacturer at least 1½d. extra. There are only about 15 ozs. of silk in a dozen pairs. Not much, it will be said. Perhaps not in the first place, but what is going to happen afterwards? What will the wholesaler charge extra? What will the retailer charge extra? The Committee can take it from me that when those stockings are placed on the market she will be a lucky woman who can get a pair at an increase of from 6d. to 9d. The talk about silk stockings at the same price is so much humbug. There is bound to be an increase in price. [HON. MEMBERS: "There is already."] Yes, already the price has gone up.

An hon. Member spoke a little while ago about contracts being placed in huge quantities at the old price covering the whole of this year. I should like to know the source of his information. I am speaking from definite knowledge, and I know that the price has already gone up and is certain to go up further as time goes on. I am quite certain that these increases are bound to affect the trade, and the result will be less employment in the trade than there has been in the past, instead of more, as we should all like to see. and as would have been the case had the trade been left alone. The artificial silk trade is still in its infancy. It has developed wonderfully during the last few years. It now employs between 120,000 and 160,000 workpeople. If all hindrances were removed, it would continue to develop rapidly, and would soon be employing many thousands more than it now employs. My principal concern is that there should be work for more and more workpeople, and I understand the Chancellor is deeply concerned in that direction as is also the Prime Minister, judging by his utterances in various parts of the country. If the Chancellor desires to see more work for Britishers in our own country, let me beg of him before he permits this legislation to go through, to weigh carefully all the considerations and circumstances connected with the trades concerned in these proposals with a view to lightening this burden further if not to removing it entirely.

All taxation is an unfortunate necessity, and I do not suppose any Chancellor of the Exchequer has ever proposed—I am certain this Chancellor is not proposing in this Budget—any tax for any other motive than that of raising revenue. This tax is intended to raise revenue. All taxes must, however, be considered in relation to the effect which they will have. We must consider how far they are likely to damage employment or industry. Another most important consideration in all taxation is that the tax should be collected as cheaply, as easily, and with as little irritation as possible. If I may say so, respectfully, I would also add the consideration which has been put forward so forcibly by the hon. Member (Mr. Bromfield), who has just sat down, that, if possible, taxation should be so adjusted as to encourage employment in this country and, certainly, in no way to injure it. These Silk Duties have led to great controversy, and I think they have certainly frightened a great many people. It is always difficult to forecast accurately what is going to happen in the case of new taxation. We have heard the most diverse views as to what is going to happen in this case. Something quite definite is going to happen, however, and I would suggest to the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we are in some difficulty in discussing this matter, because we have not his actual final proposals before us in debating these Clauses. We know he is going to make some alterations, and that negotiations have been in progress, and I think he has told us that the adjustments and alterations are not to he very great.

May I say, speaking from a long experience, that when taxation is altered or new taxation is proposed, those likely to be affected are in the first place very much alarmed. Negotiations then take place, and generally some kind of compromise is arrived at and the Minister of the day gets his tax in a modified form. Whether that tax be wholly good or bad, he can rely upon his majority behind him in the House of Commons. A great many Members, with the best will in the world, are not in the position to master all the technical details and to understand a tax in all its bearings. That is the kind of thing that is taking place at the present time, but there are general broad principles in all taxation which must be considered. I very much regret to see included in these Customs Duties a duty on raw material. That is a duty which must affect every manufacturer in this country and must be added to the charges which he has to meet in the course of manufacture before he can sell the article he produces. It is a tax upon his home trade and upon his export trade also—unless there is a drawback—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is providing himself with a whole host of troubles, because he proposes to charge Excise Duty upon all articles, whether silk or artificial silk, produced and sold in this country.

It does not really make any difference to the principle. This matter of Excise will lead to a lot of trouble. The right hon. Gentleman has to set up a system of drawbacks. These drawbacks are going to be irksome. They will involve a great deal of administration and a great burden of work upon the Customs Department without any adequate increase in the revenue, and will lead inevitably to irritation and dispute. There are other considerations which I have heard in the course of this controversy which seem to be worthy of mention. In all foreign countries import duties are charged upon silk as upon other articles which are imported, and in some cases these duties are ad valorem duties based on the prices at which the article sells in the country of origin. You have now to add to that price the Excise Duty and thus you are also going to add to the Import Duty which you have to pay in the foreign country where you try to sell your goods in competition with other producers. That is one difficulty.

There is the other difficulty where goods are sold in bulk and by other methods. A great many foreign countries have a provision in their tax, that any advantage in drawback is to be added to the charge made when those goods are imported Therefore, what would happen in the case which we have been asked to consider would be that the drawback in excess of the Excise Duty charged would, in fact, be a contribution to the revenue of foreign countries. The Excise Duty is a very much diminished duty, and I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to consider seriously whether the revenue likely to be collected from the Excise Duty is worth the whole of the trouble, the irritation, and the disturbance to trade which the Excise Duty must inevitably entail. I hope there is time to consider some of these matters and to adjust them, and I would suggest that the greatest mistake we could make at this time of day is to use catchwords which have lost their meaning, such as Free Trade or tariffs. Every case should be considered on its merits according to the necessities of that case. In this case we want revenue. We do not want to hurt a growing industry, and we want to collect the revenue with as little irritation as possible, and I would suggest respectfully that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should consider the points which I have ventured to urge upon him.

This Debate has now lasted for very nearly three hours, and we have a very long and somewhat stony road to travel before our labours of to-day and to-morrow will be ended. Therefore, I would venture to suggest that we might now endeavour to bring this general discussion as soon as possible to a close, in order to get on with the numerous Amendments, raising points of detail and also points of substance, which require to be submitted to the opinion of the Committee. The Debate has certainly been marked by many excellent speeches on each side of the controversy and from both sides of the House. There was the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), who made a brief but well-packed speech, terse and lucid, and who brought special care and study to the problem with which he was confronted. He was to some extent answered—he will perhaps not agree with this, but those who have listened to the Debate will be able to judge for themselves—by the speeches delivered on this side by the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington) and by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), and we have had the discussion maintained during these three hours by Members who in every case have seemed to give a very great deal of trouble and study to the problem which they had before them. Therefore, I think I may say that the topic has been thoroughly thrashed out in a debate which certainly is not unworthy of the Legislative Assembly of a great commercial country.

It falls to my lot to endeavour to sum up the main, salient issues which the Committee should set before them in coming to a decision upon this proposed tax, and I will begin, in the very first place, by reminding the Committee that all taxes are bad and that all taxes are, or ought to be, unpopular. But in my position I have to find revenue from one quarter or another. There are the greatest differences of opinion as to how this revenue should be found. There are some who tell us that it should be found by sweeping reductions in expenditure, but they differ very much upon the items of expenditure in regard to which the reductions should be effected. For instance, on the Liberal benches, and to some extent on the Labour benches, we should be told that reductions should be made exclusively on the expenditure on armaments, and that there should be not reductions, but large increases, in all the social services. On the other hand, we have very strong arguments put before us every day, here and out of doors, for the need of economy in what are called the Civil Service Estimates, largely consisting of these same social services, and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer advances, either in the one direction or in the other, he is confronted by the opposition not only of great Departments and great vested interests, but the organised opposition of very large bodies of representative opinion in this country.

So, then, we turn from expenditure to attempts to expand the revenue, and here again, of course, where new taxes are to be proposed, they involve disturbance, they involve a change in the existing conditions, they confront men and merchants and manufacturers with new propositions and with new problems. Naturally, they cause friction, and the mere process of imposing them is in itself attended with a certain measure of inconvenience and even of waste, but, as I have said, you cannot judge any one part of this Budget except in relation to the whole of the proposals. I set out broadly to effect a large reduction, something in the neighbourhood of 1s., in the direct taxes on income, and I could not possibly have achieved that unless I had raised the Death Duties, and unless I had discovered this tax upon silk. This tax on silk exactly balances the relief which is given to the earned incomes as against investment incomes. It pays for it almost to a million pounds, and it enables all that great relief to a very large majority of the Income Tax payers of this country, a relief which increases in its proportion as the scale is descended, to be given. I say it is quite unfair for anyone here or out of doors, except for the purposes of the commoner forms of political controversy, to examine this tax without realising that it is only through the application of the tax and the development of the tax that the remissions, greatly approved and greatly desired, in the Income Tax region had been rendered possible. It is quite true that we shall be told by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), who, I see, is sharpening his arrows and whetting his tomahawk—

I cast them before him only with the greatest feelings of respect. It is quite true that we shall be told that all you have to do is to increase the Death Duties, and give no remission to the Super-tax payer. That was not the intention or purpose for which this transference from one class of taxpayer to the other took place. The two stand together or they fall together as one proposition, and it is quite irrelevant, in my opinion, to other sections of the Budget to complicate the discussion in this way. Revenue, then, is what I have to seek, and after this matter has been before the country for a period which now exceeds six weeks, weeks of active canvassing and criticism, the concessions which have been made have not made any substantial difference to the yield of the tax. I have been told in some of the organs of public opinion, and by some of our lighter guides in these matters, that I am climbing down day by day. The measure of my descent is to foe measured very accurately by the financial results, and the financial results are that, whereas we originally estimated that this tax would produce £7,000,000 in a full year, we now estimate that it will produce £6,100,000. I do not think that is a very heavy loss to have incurred in regard to a tax which was novel in its character, which raised so many very intricate problems, which affected so many overlapping and conflicting interests, and which required necessarily a great process of adjustment with the different sections of the trade and interests concerned. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), who has just spoken, and who has, in very moderate and courteous terms, expressed his general disagreement with the tax—

He took for the bull's eye of his target the countervailing Excise Duty. I should like to explain to the Committee that the advice that I received before this tax was announced, and all the information I have gathered since it has come on the anvil of public discussion, have convinced me that it is impossible to separate the tax on natural silk from a tax on artificial silk. If you are to get a substantial revenue, it is necessary that the tax on natural silk should apply to the natural raw material. The raw material which comes into this country finds no counterpart in any home production, and, therefore, the whole yield of that part of the tax goes to the Exchequer. If, therefore, we are for reasons of revenue—and it was revenue we set out to find—to impose a tax upon the natural raw material, and if natural silk and artificial silk are, as I am convinced, inseparably linked together, then it is essential that you should protect the users of the raw natural silk in this country from the competition of the artificial silk users, and hold the balance fairly between them by the imposition of a countervailing Excise; and that countervailing Excise, quite apart from fulfilling the function of balancing accurately between those two classes of producers, also vindicates the revenue character of the duty, and produces a substantial addition to the revenue which is yielded to the Exchequer.

Of course, before we came out of the chambers of Whitehall into the glare of publicity it was very difficult indeed to know what was the lowest point to which we could reduce the countervailing excise and the duty on the imported artificial silk without seriously injuring and invidiously affecting (he production of natural silk. Therefore, we deliberately fixed our excise and our duty on artificial silk on the high side, so as to have a margin to move down to the true point of balance; and in order that the revenue might not be unduly upset we also took a high estimate for the diminution in consumption resulting from the imposition of the tax, fixing it at 20 per cent., so as to have what in naval parlance is called "something to veer and haul on."

Then we came forward into the light of day and of criticism, and ever since then we have been in the most constant and intimate and friendly discussion with all sections of the trade—every section, I can say. An hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Labour Benches said I had not yet seen the operatives, but I was engaged in negotiations with the Manchester authorities and merchants, and I wanted to see how those negotiations turned out before I received the deputation from the operatives, as the result of these would clearly make a great difference to the discussion. I have communicated with them to say that as soon as we know definitely where we are in that matter I shall be very glad indeed to receive their deputation—before the tax is passed through this House. I would not think of denying them the fullest possible access; it would be my duty to give them the fullest possible access before any final decision is taken by this House.

The result of these discussions, at which there have been representatives of the Silk Association, the London Chamber of Commerce, British Celanese, and in which we have had the advice of representatives of Messrs. Courtaulds—I am not saying we have had their agreement, that is another matter—the result of all these discussions, which we have also conducted with representatives of the Bradford and Manchester Chambers, is found in the Schedule of duties and drawbacks affixed to the pages of this Bill.

No. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is always expecting that people may use unfair arguments or false arguments. Considering how very careful he is always to confine himself to the strict path of argumentative integrity, I think he might sometimes credit others, at any rate provisionally, with a certain measure of candour.

The arguments of the right hon. Gentleman have been addressed to different quarters of the House at different periods of his career.

That is rather an unhandsome manner of responding and, if I may say so, it is not a very fresh manner, to the turn which I gave to my observations. We have, of course, not got complete agreement; we very rarely do get complete agreement in this world; and if we did, I should feel very doubtful about the agreement being on very sound lines. Most of the complete agreements I have seen in political affairs are based upon some additional grant from the Exchequer. But we have reached a considerable measure of agreement, and I say that this Schedule which is now put forward has been revised, not merely with all the information at the disposal of the Customs and the other officials, and with all their knowledge and skill, but in intimate discussion of every detail with the principal trading interests concerned, and that it commands a great measure of agreement. Leicester, Leek, Macclesfield, British Celanese—on the whole, these are satisfied. The Silk Association, which represents, not merely manufacturers of natural silk, but the great majority (if not so much as my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield said when he spoke of 90 per cent.) of the users of it—no, I must put it right. It represents those who use the greater part of the artificial silk. All these are not only agreeable to the proposals in the Schedules, but they regard them in varying degrees as likely to prove highly beneficial to their own industry.

Then there is the case of Courtaulds, the great productive industry of Messrs. Courtaulds. We have been through ups and downs in regard to Messrs. Courtaulds. The first view was the view of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley, that we were conferring enormous benefits, out of our unhealthy love for the rich, upon this bloated capitalist monopoly.

I am not attempting to quote exactly the language of the right hon. Gentleman, but to render justice to the spirit of his observations. He accused us of favouring this rich firm by so framing the tax as to give them a very great advantage and make their shares rise in the market.

Well, it is no use the right hon. Gentleman denying it, because it is all in the pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I am in the recollection of the great majority of the Members of the House. That was his first position. A few days later, owing to the fluctuations in the share market, their shares were found to be depressed. Then what was the line of attack? It was no longer a bolstering up of this vast and wealthy company, it was a question of the cruel striking down of an infant, nascent industry. Now there is another change. The shares have again risen, on good forward orders, so I am informed, and on the general prospects of the trade, and now I am looking forward to hear the right hon. Gentleman say, "From the first I have discerned that the motive of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to confer, under the guise of an injury, enormous benefits on a section of his capitalist friends." I have every reason to believe, and I do not speak without some knowledge and authority, that the production of artificial silk in this country is in no way going to be hampered toy this tax; nor are the proposals and preparation which the firm of Courtaulds had in mind for erecting large new installations and factories in the neighbourhood of Wolverhampton to be in any way prevented by this tax. On the contrary, they have been rationing their customers, so eager is the demand; and it is quite certain that it will only be by the utmost exertions in production that they will be able to meet the increasing public demand for artificial silk. Therefore, I think I am entitled to say of all these industries and branches of the trade, whether we have their actual formal agreement or not, that they are at any rate satisfied in their own minds that they are not going to be injured and damnified by the imposition of this duty.

There remain outside the area of those principally concerned, the manufacturers, the traders, the users of artificial silk and natural silk—all that is represented by the Silk Association—the users of artificial silk in Lancashire and in Yorkshire. I frankly admit that that difficulty has not yet been solved.

It has not yet been solved to the satisfaction of the representatives of those two great industries. We have not yet succeeded in convincing them. They use much less artificial silk than Leicester or Leek or Macclesfield, and they use it in what I may call a diluted form, in very small proportions, to beautify and variegate the cotton fabrics and the woollen fabrics, piece goods, which they sell and which, particularly in the case of cotton, they sell for export. I have seen and admired the variety of these beautiful fabrics, produced at an extraordinarily cheap rate, and I believe there is a great future before them. I believe it is quite possible that the use of artificial silk to beautify and adorn and vary the cheaper forms of cotton piece goods which are at present used for export to Asiatic and, possibly, to African, countries, may have the effect of stimulating a demand on the part of ladies beyond all present proportions and dimensions.

7.0 P.M.

If I thought I could be convinced, that what we are doing in imposing this tax were going to check and fetter and restrict this important new development of our textile trade, I would reconsider the matter from the beginning to the end, but I am convinced by all I have heard so far that this will not be the case, and that there is no danger of the export trade of Lancashire or Yorkshire being prejudicially affected by the rate of duties, having regard to the rate of drawbacks. The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), in his excellent speech, committed the error of wishing to use effectively at once two mutually contradictory arguments. He was very anxious to show that the trade would be greatly injured by the duties, and spoke with great authority upon that; but at the same time he was anxious to show that we were favouring the foreign consumer by the rates of drawback we are giving, saying it would enable the foreign consumer to purchase the products of Lancashire and Yorkshire cheaper than they could be bought by the British consumer in the home market. The inconsistency consists, of course, in the fact that this phrase "favouring the foreign, consumer" may equally well be expressed as "augmenting the competitive power of the British exporter." If it be true that the foreign consumer is going to have very cheap goods dangled before his eyes, that is the way to stimulate our export trade, and to increase and not diminish the employment which will arise in consequence of it. But to do full justice to the hon. Member's argument one must examine this question of the drawbacks from two points of view. First of all, are they effective and sufficient, and, secondly, can they be practically administered? Will they work, or will they cause so much trouble and throw the trade into such a confusion that the trade would rather not have them? That is the argument. Let us get the first part out of the way. If these drawbacks can be given, can be recovered by the trade, they are not merely a repayment, of the duty, Customs or Excise, but they provide an actual stimulus in the shape of a compensation amounting to something like 5 per cent. for any disturbance that intervenes. If they can be given to the exporters, they will have the effect, not of hampering, but if anything of stimulating the export trade.

Let us see whether they can be, in fact, administered without consequential inconvenience which may make them more trouble than they are worth. I must say I put a great deal of confidence in the reiterated advice I have received from my experts on the subject. They have been studying this matter not only with all the knowledge available beforehand, and the knowledge of the Board of Trade, but since the Budget there has been continuous discussion with the trade and they are quite confident there will be no difficulty in working this system of drawbacks smoothly, so much so, that it is not proposed to make any appreciable addition to the staff or to embark on any large development of offices for the administration of the drawbacks. It is believed that this will be a perfectly simple business After all, the whole of the vast imports into this country of hundreds of thousands of varieties of articles are observed, classified, and measured by a Custom's staff which, I am informed, for this purpose, does not exceed 1,000. The whole of the administration of the Sugar Duties is carried on in the most simple manner without any trouble to the exporters. One exporter who has exported 600 different kinds of sugar products is receiving drawbacks in every conceivable degree of refinement promptly and swiftly in regard to all those 600 varieties. In sugar alone, they deal with 900 exporting firms. There has been not the slightest difficulty in obtaining the great revenue from sugar, which is not merely an article of food, but the raw material of industry. Nevertheless, our export trade has steadily progressed, just as may that of silk products. Therefore, I feel quite confident that the drawback system will work.

It is one thing to feel confident and it is another to impart that confidence to people who do not like your plan, and who feel the same confidence in their knowledge as you do in yours. But I am bound to say that great progress has been made in removing many of the apprehensions which both Lancashire and Yorkshire representatives feel in regard to the drawbacks. In the first place, we have struck an average rate. Some of the silk that would be used by exporters would be foreign purchased and some would be home produced, and we find it would be much more simple, and this is the advice we have received from all sections of the trade, to strike an average rate between the two and let it rule over the whole area. And that will obviate the difficulty of tracing whether it comes from a foreign or a home source in every case. But it is quite possible, if there is some particular firm which uses foreign imported silk far more than it does British made, to arrange for a differential rate on their product. It is only necessary that the firm should decide which method it prefers to adopt, and we leave them with the alternative; but we feel sure that an overwhelming majority will fall back on the average rate. More- over, although the silk used in one commodity or another differs markedly as to its origin, if you take any individual manufacturer or merchant who uses all kinds of raw material, it is very unlikely that any such firm will be discovered as will wish to avail themselves of the option of having differential rates. However, the alternative is with them.

We have also suggested what has been called the "through-ticket" system. We believe that in the main a very large number of firms, both manufacturers and exporters, know the general destination of the articles they are making. It is perfectly idle to suggest that such goods are made and piled up, and that the people have not the slightest knowledge whether they are going to China or Rumania or elsewhere. In the main, the lines of transit from the mill to the exporter are perfectly well known. And if that can be established, then, to the extent that it can be established, we are quite able to arrive at what is called the "through ticket," whereby the merchant or manufacturer, or both in combination, will testify that they require a certain amount of artificial silk for export purposes, and will be able to obtain that artificial silk free of duty, and send it oft without the slightest impediment at all, and a running account can be kept. This I put forward only as an optional alternative. If it is not found satisfactory, it need not be used. It is simply an alternative method. The drawbacks are in every way a safeguard; they will be easy to administer and will not involve any serious friction in trade, and will secure prompt and swift repayment to the exporter and manufacturer on any account which they may have in view. That is our position.

Let me say one word about the silk industry. I was saying this morning, at a very early hour, that the old basic Free Trade argument was that there would not be any prolonged importation without producing a corresponding exportation. That has been the real foundation or start, of course, of many of those who hold Free Trade principles. But in the present conditions of the world, when you have as you do, enormous reparations and indebtedness, it it not true that continued importation from any particular quarter will induce a corresponding exportation. It is not true that the importation of French silk into this country or German-made artificial silk into this country in virtue of indebtedness incurred by those countries to our credit would require a corresponding export from this country. The fundamental condition is in abeyance while those exceptional conditions prevail. If that be true, the question of producing a larger proportion of luxury and quasi-luxury commodities at home might really be considered without the slightest detriment to the general productive energies of the country, with some advantage to revenue, and no reflection upon the fundamental doctrines of Free Trade. At any rate, that is the course on which, so far as I am concerned, I propose to endeavour to proceed, and I think that the silk tax, and the silk industry, afford an exceedingly good illustration of what we may hope to recover in that field Revenue is the object, but the incidental consequences may also be fairly considered. In the year 1851 there were 131,000 persons employed in this country in the manufacture and preparation of natural silk. There are to-day between 25,000 and 30,000, and yet to-day the use of silk has enormously increased; in fact, the use of silk, natural and artificial, has increased possibly 10 and 12 times over that period.

But observe my point. It certainly is a very striking thing that in this luxury or quasi-luxury sphere there should have been a loss of five-sixths of the employment in this period, and that at the same time there should have been an expansion of nearly 10 times in the consumption. Whatever is the cause I do not think it is to be explained by the word machinery. There has been an enormous increase, yet we have even lost five-sixths of the employment we enjoyed in the old days. I think it is a perfectly fair and reasonable problem for any thinking man to study in these days when we have to consider our position so very earnestly and seriously. I believe, and I am assured from many quarters, that the effect of these taxes will markedly stimulate employment in the silk trade. After all, it is by the results that His Majesty's Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must in this matter be judged. There is no doubt whatever that these duties will be passed into law and put on the Statute Book, and there is no doubt whatever that the results will be the criterion by which we shall be judged. It will not be by gloomy predictions or obstinate denials or by harsh abuse or by newspaper agitations at the present time that we shall be judged. If I should stand here a year from now or two years from now, it will be by the results, the unescapable results, that I shall have to be either praised or blamed.

Yes, I know, but matches are much more dangerous things than silk. It is no use me trying to match gloomy prophecies by optimistic prophecies. I will only put the alternatives before the Committee and invite hon. Members to bear them in mind against some future year. If it should be found that the administration of the drawbacks causes so much friction and disturbance in the cotton and woollen trades, and that the export trade is being hampered, it is not conceivable that that evil would remain unredressed, or that those responsible for it would not receive their due amount of popular criticism.

If it should be found that there is a great fall in employment, a great rise in prices and a great contraction of the demand, and a disappointing revenue—if all these things can be shown next year or the year after, it is quite true that I must expect to be very much scolded in all these matters. It is quite possible, however, that the opposite may occur. The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), with his engaging candour, indicated that he apprehended an alternative situation. He said that the production of artificial silk is increasing, the processes are improving and prices must come down, and it may be that in spite of this tax the price may be less than it is to-day. He also went on to say that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer came forward and attempted to take credit for this state of affairs, he would be in his place to point out that such credit was wholly undeserved. My view is that the natural silk industry of this country is going to receive a very considerable stimulus from these duties, and that a very large measure of new employment, preparations for which are already being made, will be created throughout the natural silk industry. I believe there will be a larger production of artificial silk next year than this year, and a still larger production the year after.

At any rate, it is something not to be worse off than you were. I believe that the prices ruling for artificial silk will not be found, after the temporary period, to have increased by the amount of the duty, or increased by anything like the duty. I believe that there will be increased employment, and more people at work in the production of artificial silk next year than this year, and still more in the following year. I do not believe that the well-known cheap articles, which are sold at a fixed price to meet popular consumption, are going to pass out of existence at all. The 1s. 6½d. pair of stockings I have seen, and they are the cheapest—I asked to be shown all kinds—and I do not believe that any of these articles are going to disappear from the market, though there may be alterations made in the appearance or attractiveness of the articles, or an alteration in regard to the composition of the articles to enable this small tax to be absorbed. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Snowden), in a bitter and appealing phrase which I frankly admit I found moving, spoke about "taxing the poor girls' finery," but I do not believe that any of these articles of popular consumption on the market at fixed prices are going to be withdrawn from the market in consequence of this tax. I believe that the great developments which are taking place in the beautifying of the fabrics in Lancashire and Yorkshire for export purposes are going to receive a stimulus from the advantages of the drawbacks, and I believe that that development will proceed rapidly and by leaps and bounds. Lastly, I believe that the individual who is responsible for the national finances will not only be able to realise to the full the Estimates which have been presented, but even obtain a revenue which will exceed the total which was originally contemplated.

It is always delightful to listen to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because one is never quite certain what he is going to say, or whether he is going to retract what he said in his speech on the last occasion. I think the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded most admirably in the speech he has just delivered to the House in defending these taxes on quite different grounds, all of which are mutually destructive. The latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted, I wonder with what measure of sincerity, to an expression of the optimism with which he regards the operation of these duties when they become law. The right hon. Gentleman evidently enjoys an optimism which is not shared by the Tory party in the country, and particularly by the Tory party in an important textile district in Lancashire. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was confident that the effect of the operation of these duties would be to increase employment and increase trade, and that at the end of this year there would be a larger volume of exports or a larger volume of production of artificial silk than is the case to-day.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when he arrived at that conclusion? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has evidently forgotten his own Budget statement, and he has forgotten the grounds on which he recommended these duties to the House. The right hon. Gentleman told us in a previous speech that he anticipated as a result of the imposition of these duties some slight reduction in the consumption of these articles. The same argument was used a few weeks later by his lieutenant, who told us that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in estimating the revenue expected to be derived by the imposition of these duties, estimated for a decline of 20 per cent. in the employment of the people now engaged in those trades. That is only a month ago, and now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a great rhetorical optimistic passage at the conclusion of his speech, defends his proposals on the ground that they are going to be a great stimulus to production and consumption. Really, will the right hon. Gentleman kindly give one speech to the House keeping to the facts, and giving us an honest and frank statement of the grounds on which he does recommend his Budget.

Does the right hon. Gentleman doubt my statement that the production of artificial silk in the coming 12 months will be greater than during the past 12 months?

The right hon. Gentleman asks me if I doubt that there is going to be an increase in the production of artificial silk during the next 12 months, but it is not for me to answer that question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said a month ago he did not believe that there would be an increased production; on the contrary, he said there would be a reduction.

The right hon. Gentleman anticipated a reduction of consumption by the imposition of these duties. I want to know where we stand, because evidently this tax is one thing yesterday and another thing to-morrow. I should be out of order if I were to follow in any detail the earlier part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in which he defended these new taxes. The right hon. Gentleman said that all taxes are bad, but that is not my view. I have never taken the view that taxation in itself is an evil. I think that taxation rightly imposed and equitably distributed is a great benefit to the nation. The right hon. Gentleman said that he must have revenue. I have heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer make that statement a score of times during the last two months. He says he must have revenue, and then he jumps at the conclusion that this new silk tax is the only means by which he can obtain the revenue he needs. As a matter of fact, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not need revenue at all, because he budgeted for a surplus before he made any remisisons of taxation and imposed countervailing increases of taxation. He budgeted for a surplus of £26,000,000. Why, therefore, was it necessary for him to impose new taxes? The right ton. Gentleman admitted and declared that you cannot impose new taxes without causing hardship, dislocation of industry and waste. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his revenue could be raised automatically without creating the slightest dislocation or the slightest waste? He has reduced the Income Tax by 6d. in the £, but I should like to point out that if he had put one penny on the Income Tax instead of reducing it this would have given him the revenue he expects to get from the imposition of these duties.

Why in the name of common sense did the right hon. Gentleman when he had that method at hand of raising revenue if he needed it, which would impose no dislocation upon industry and no waste—why did he go out of his way to upset the greatest manufacturing industry that we have in this country? Why did he go out of his way to raise this highly controversial issue? It would be interesting to have an answer. I cannot conceive of one. A Chancellor of the Exchequer surely ought to follow the line of least resistance. If he has revenue to raise, and if he is a wise Chancellor, he will raise it in the way that is likely to excite least opposition. It will save him considerable trouble in the House of Commons in getting through his Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman had confined his Budget proposals to doing what he had the means to do, just a simple reduction of 6d. in the £1 in Income Tax, how much easier it would have been for him to have got his Bill through the House of Commons. I am not saying that that proposal would have gone through without opposition, but certainly from the point of view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it would have saved him a great deal of trouble. We have had another confession from the right hon. Gentleman, that it is a Budget of compensating balances. Over and over again we are told we must look at the Budget as a whole.

The right hon. Gentleman says, "Hear, hear." I can assure him that he need not remind us to look at the Budget as a whole. We shall look at the Budget as a whole; we shall never cease to look at the Budget as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman says that the amount he expects to get by these new taxes is just equal to the sum he is giving in relief of earned income—he means to people in the lower range of the Income Tax grades. I doubt whether he knows anything at all about the theory of taxation. The right hon. Gentleman says I promised to make remissions. Of course I promised to make a remission, but I did not promise I would get compensating revenue by taxing the finery of working girls. My relief would have been a relief to the people for whom it was intended. It would not have been a giving with one hand and a taking back with the other. The right hon. Gentleman is giving a few millions of relief to a class of Income Tax payers and he is taxing not only them but the people who do not pay Income Tax. This tax violates every canon of taxation. It is a burden upon trade; its incidence is not fair. The Chancellor in his Budget speech dealt with this point and defended it upon the ground that nobody need buy artificial silk stockings unless they wished to do so. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman has ever considered that statement from the point of view of revenue. Suppose that everybody ceased to buy taxed articles. What would happen?

The right hon. Gentleman would have to find compensating revenue. I wonder if he has ever thought of the reason why certain articles are taxed by indirect methods. Take, for instance, tea and sugar. In all these oases people can evade the tax provided they do not consume the article. This is the point. These commodities are taxed because they are in general use, and if they ever cease to be in general use, the revenue would be so small that the tax would not be worth collecting. The right hon. Gentleman is imposing taxes—I do not say he is doing it knowingly, consciously or even intelligently—he is finding his compensating revenue for the relief he is giving to the smaller Income Tax payers by taxing them and the people who are worse off than they are, the people who do not come into the Income Tax class at all. That is the real ground, perhaps I ought to say the main ground, of our objection to these taxes.

The right hon. Gentleman said it is only through these taxes that he could have given the remission to the people in the lower grades of Income Tax payers. Did he mean that? Did he mean that there is no other way of raising six or seven millions of revenue except by taxing this textile fabrics? Of course he did not, because as soon as he had said it he saw what the obvious answer to it was. "I should be told," he said, "that I am giving more than this to the Income Tax payers." Then why give it to the Income Tax payer and put it on to this class of people? That shows it is not the only way in which he could have given relief to the people of the lower grades of Income Tax.

I will deal with another point with which he asked me to deal. Not many Members were present in the House to hear the speech of the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence). The Chancellor of the Exchequer did hear it, and he made one or two references to my hon. Friend's observations. My hon. Friend said he did not think there would be a permanent decline in the production of these textiles. Whoever has said there would? I dealt with that point last night, and I said that whether you put a tax on motor oars or not, in view of the fact that the motor-car industry is a developing industry, and that the methods of production are being improved and almost revolutionised every year, even a tariff cannot kill an industry of that kind, though it can hamper it, injure it, and inflict grave damage upon it. There are possibilities in this industry which even a tariff cannot kill. But a tariff can hamper. We have heard from the Secretary to the Treasury that he expected a 20 per cent. decline. He did yesterday, but as I said last night, nobody expects the right hon. Gentleman to hold the same opinion two days together. The probability is that scientific methods will be applied to the production of raw material which will effect a still further development, and because this promising industry is likely to give great employment in the country, the right hon. Gentleman says, "I do what I can. I cannot kill it, but I will do what I can to damage and injure it." I have never supported, or given expression to, wild statements, that these taxes were going to ruin the industry. If I did ever feel inclined to be so foolish as that, the experience that was given me by hon. Members opposite last year in regard to the McKenna Duties would have been a lesson for life.

The hon. and gallant Member for Aylesbury (Sir A. Burgoyne) spoke in the earlier part of the Debate this afternoon, and of course, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is an encyclopedia of knowledge upon every question which comes before the House. He is very generous in imparting his profound knowledge of these questions to the ignorant Members of the House of Commons, and he a ways does it in a way which shows that he is contemptuous of his less gifted and less informed and more ignorant colleagues in the House of Commons. The hon. and gallant Member spoke in the course of his speech, from his own knowledge as a director of one of the largest companies, of the effect which these duties would have had on retail prices, and he stated most definitely and without qualification that the effect of the imposition of these taxes would be not to raise prices at all. Now I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he agrees with that. If it is not going to increase prices, what advantages are the silk manufacturers of Leek, Macclesfield and Congleton going to get? Are they supporting the imposition of these duties because they think there will be no increase of prices? Of course they expect to get an increase. The hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement has been repudiated by advertisements which have appeared in the newspapers within the last few days announcing that prices will be increased after the duties come into operation. "Naturally," says the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but when he was dealing with the McKenna Duties yesterday he flaunted the advertisements showing a reduction in the price of cars.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to a passing reference which I made to the market price of Courtaulds' shares the day after the Budget had been introduced, and he had not the slightest hesitation, quite honestly and in good faith I am sure, in attributing views and opinions which I certainly did not express upon that occasion. All I did say was to point out that these shares had risen and that it was evidently the opinion of the market that the Chancellor's proposals were going to enable larger profits to be made in the artificial silk trade. That is the opinion of the market, not mine—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!']—not my expressed opinion, not the opinion which I expressed on that occasion. The right hon. Gentleman says Messrs. Courtaulds say that they are not going to be hampered by this. I have seen no statement except that such an increased demand is expected, owing to the taxation of the raw material they produce, that they have had a rush of customers, but every customer of Courtaulds has been rationed for a very long time. There is nothing new in that. There is another very important point which the right hon. Gentleman raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), who moved this Amendment, made what I think—and I think all the Members of the Committee who heard it will agree—was not only a very interesting but a very proper point when he referred to the fact that under the rebate system an advantage is going to be given to the foreign consumer of British manufactured goods; and the right, hon. Gentleman defended that. Now I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman another question: Is it his policy, is it the policy of the Tory Government, to sell goods cheaper in foreign markets than in the home market?

I will answer it at once. The policy of the tax upon sugar, which the right hon. Gentleman passed through the House last year, was undoubtedly to give a drawback to the foreign purchaser of exported sugar, and that, undoubtedly, did not bear the burden. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] My policy is the same as the right hon. Gentleman's.

:I quite expected that the right hon. Gentleman would shuffle out of that question. I certainly was not responsible for the imposition of the Sugar Duty, and I was not responsible for the institution of the drawback. But I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that in the case of sugar the difference between the amount of the original duty and the amount of the drawback is only just sufficient to compensate the refiner for the trouble and expense to which he has been put by the Customs.

And the duty, of course. I want an answer to that question: Is it the policy of the Conservative party to sell more cheaply to the foreigner than to the British people? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] Silence may be taken as an affirmative answer. So now the slogan of the Tory party has been changed. It is no longer, "Make the foreigner pay," but, "Make the Britisher pay for the benefit of the foreigner." We are going to discuss in Committee to-morrow a proposal of the Government for the imposition of a duty, which in some cases will amount to more than 60 per cent., upon imports of lace goods. What is the justification for the Safeguarding of Industries Act? One of the main justifications is that it is to prevent goods from being imported into this country at prices lower than those at which they are sold in the country from which they come—it is to prevent dumping. And now the policy of the Tory party is to promote dumping. Really, where is the Government going? It is no wonder that that question is being asked all over the country by those who supported the Government at the last Election.

The right hon. Gentleman says there is agreement—[ Interruption ]. The right hon. Gentleman heard the speech of the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington) this afternoon. He spoke much more in sorrow than in anger, but he opposed these duties, and he was trying to express the views of the great industry with which he is familiar. Has the right hon. Gentleman got the agreement of the Lancashire users of this artificial silk? No, he has not. Has he got it in the West Riding of Yorkshire? No, he has not. He says he has got it from the Silk Association, but the statement was issued, after one of the interviews which the right hon. Gentleman gave a few weeks ago to a deputation including representatives of the London Chamber of Commerce, that that deputation came away satisfied, and within a few hours we had a repudiation of that statement from the London Chamber of Commerce. If there has been a change of attitude since the time when these duties were first proposed, it is not because there has been any lessening of opposition to these taxes; it is because it has been recognised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he has stated so often, is determined to use that servile majority behind him— [HON. MEMBERS: "Loyal!"] — the loyalty of hon. Members supporting the Government in the Division Lobby has been shown by the enthusiasm with which they have taken part in the Debate in support of these proposals. There have been some very good speeches, and two out of, I think, three or four speeches delivered by supporters of the Government have been against these duties. The right Gentleman is entitled to take all the comfort he can from that. It is realised by the various trades affected that the right hon. Gentleman is determined to force these proposals forward, and, therefore, they are prepared to try to make the best of a bad job, and see how far they can minimise the harmful character of these taxes. Moreover, they are certainly justified, by the experience of what has taken place during the last month, in hoping that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not spoken the last word. He told us in his Budget speech that he and his Department had been closely studying this question of the silk taxes for four months, and at last all the difficulties which had baffled Mr. Gladstone, Sir Robert Peel, and all the mediocre predecessors of the right hon. Gentleman, had been overcome; no further difficulty remained, and he presented his scheme to the House of Commons. Where is that original scheme now? Where are the original duties? Just look at the list of the duties as proposed in the Budget and the duties which are now in the Finance Bill. In his Budget speech the right hon. Gentleman never said one word about drawbacks or rebates. Evidently, in all the. four months during which he was working his brain to overcome the insuperable difficulties hitherto encountered, it never occurred to him that there was an export trade in these articles, and it was only when his attention was drawn to that fact that he began to consider the question.

On the very first day of the introduction of the Budget I was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), "Do you propose a system of drawbacks in regard to exports?" and I said, "Of course I do."

That reply was another instance of the alacrity of the right hon. Gentleman's mental processes. It did not take him more than a couple of seconds, when he was reminded of this question of rebates by the hon. Member for Macclesfield, to think, "Ah, I forgot that." It is going to be all so simple, and yet, although they have had all this time, since it was discovered that rebates would be necessary, in which to prepare a scheme, the customs authorities on Saturday issued a little leaflet on "The Proposed Customs Duties on Silk and Artificial silk," for the information of perplexed and disconcerted traders. Surely, in view of the interest in this question of rebates and its anticipated difficulties, one would have thought that this leaflet would have dealt with the question, but at the end of six pages, after having said nothing that anybody did not know before, it says—this is an explanation to the trade of how the scheme is going to operate—

Therefore, they have not come to any decision yet on this question. The right hon. Gentleman talks about his expert advisers at the Customs, and I have the highest possible admiration for the ability of the Customs officials, but they have no experience of this matter at all. There is not a man in the Customs who would know the difference between a spinning frame and a tramcar. "A statement will be issued later" upon this question which, above all others, now that the passing of the duties in one form or another seems to be assured— on the one question about which the right hon. Gentleman forgot, and which is interesting the perplexed traders of the country, the reply of the Customs as to what it all means and how it is all going to work is, "A statement will be issued." I have spoken a great deal longer than I expected, but I could never hope, however successful I might be, to emulate the success of the right hon. Gentleman. For the time being, he is quite entitled, so far as we are concerned, at any rate, to revel in his optimism, but perhaps his optimism may be a little subdued after the results of the three forthcoming by-elections. Optimism is rather a cheap commodity. It does not cost much to maintain, and, there-fore, we are quite as entitled to be optimistic with regard to these duties from our point of view as the right hon. Gentleman.

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "We are just as entitled to be optimistic from our point of view as the right hon. Gentleman"? My optimism is that the duties will go right, and if his point of view is different, and he feels himself entitled to be optimistic, the natural inference is that he will be glad if I am stultified by the duties going wrong.

I have never, on the many occasions that I have spoken on the Budget and upon this question, expressed any doubt as to what the effect of these taxes would be, but I have explained this afternoon that the effects we are certain will come are not likely to be such as to kill the industries. Probably they will continue to expand, but it will have an injurious and damaging effect all the same, and the advancement, the improvement and the extension of industries would be greater if they were not hampered by all these tariffs and restrictions. However, the right hon. Gentleman is entitled at present to be optimistic about it, and we must wait till next year and see how far he has been justified from the revenue point of view. But he is fortifying his revenue by other duties of a similar character to which I should be entirely out of order in making reference this afternoon. At any rate, I do say that on these duties, taken in connection with the additions to the Budget to be made to-morrow, it is a mere subterfuge on the part of hon. Members opposite to defend them on the ground that they are revenue-producing, and I would ask them, though they are not likely to take my advice—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—it requires a certain amount of intelligence to take my advice —at any rate, my advice to them would be, throw off all this camouflage. By doing this in an insidious way, by back-stair methods, you are violating the pledge the Prime Minister gave to the country. These duties are not imposed for the purposes of revenue, but are imposed as stepping-stones to a general tariff policy.

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer was appointed to his high office, it was said on all hands: "Now there will be some surprise in the forthcoming Budget." That Budget certainly has provided a surprise. The Chancellor has surprised everybody. He has surprised the Free Traders; he has surprised his own friends on the Protection side, and I have no doubt he has equally surprised himself. Certainly, by such duties as he has imposed, he has surprised all the textile industries. He prided himself upon a well-kept secret, and he prided himself further upon the fact that here was a problem which had confronted Chancellors for hundreds of years. Chancellors had returned to it over and over again, and on each occasion they had been gravelled, but at last he had an opportunity sufficient for his great admission that he would solve this problem. He solved it without any consultation with any of these textile industries, because the solution had to be kept a secret. What was the result of keeping it a secret? Immediately the announcement was made to this House, and I have no doubt since, a great deal of his time has been occupied by listening to deputations from one section of the industry after another protesting against his action.

Various ways have been pointed out in which these duties are going to injure the industry. I want to point out one or two other ways in which this imposition is going to injure this particular industry. It is going to injure the industry by the proposed system of drawbacks, which will involve the use of a great deal of additional capital. Those drawbacks amount in some cases to as much as 7s. Id. per lb. The manufacturer will have to pay it. The merchant will have to pay it. The first person who will get that drawback will be the exporter himself. Assuming a manufacturer turns out 10,000 lbs., he has to provide capital for 10,000 times 7s. Id. Whatever amount he exports, he has to provide the additional capital at every stage. That additional capital will be tied up at a time in the history of these industries when it is essential that it should be put to the development of the industries. It is a serious injury inflicted upon them. These industries, or some of them, two years ago applied for protection through a different avenue, the Safeguarding of Industries Act. The Committee appointed under that Act did not grant the protection. The Prime Minister gave the pledge that there should be no other avenue except the Safeguarding of Industries Act for the imposition of these protective duties. That avenue was tried in respect of these industries, and was denied. Yet the Chancellor, after the making of that pledge, opens up an avenue that had already been closed two years ago to these particular industries. It would be interesting to know what conversation took place between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister in regard to the pledge the Prime Minister had given.

The only bulwark in the interest of Free Trade in this country at the present moment is the pledge of the Prime Minister. It is a curious spectacle that the Prime Minister should have dissolved Parliament on one occasion in order to appeal to the country to give him a mandate for Protection, and the country should now be relying for the maintenance of Free Trade upon the pledge of the Prime Minister himself. The Chancellor of the Exchequer whittles away the pledge piecemeal. We have listened to speech after speech from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, delivered with very great cleverness and with very great spectacular effect, in which the chief argument has been an argument ad hominem. It is no defence of this duty, which, by its very incidence, is going to make the poor poorer. It is a duty which falls heavier upon the poor than upon the rich. For instance, there is the flat rate. Now, artificial silk is heavier in weight than pure silk. The consumers of artificial silk, in order to get the same amount of material, will have to buy a greater quantity by weight. The result is that they will have to pay a higher tax, and it is a duty which clearly falls upon the poor. There is not a body interested in this industry that supports the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I hope the Committee will reject the whole of these duties.

May I venture to suggest to the Committee that we should now bring this Debate to a close? We have tried to arrange it so that those who have a strong objection to the principle of this tax should have the opportunity of stating their views with the utmost fulness in a general Debate. We have a very great number of Amendments on the Paper, and I would venture to hope that, in the general interest of our discussion, we may now be permitted to take a Division on this issue, and get on with the many Amendments on the Paper.

May I draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that, on the contrary, there are very few Amendments on the Paper? There are many points of view we cannot raise in Amendments, and we should have to say what we want to say on the question that the Clause stand part. It was understood that the general Debate should take place now. Although the attendance of the right hon. Gentleman

has been extremely regular and gratifying to the Committee, he has not yet dealt with the question of what he means by artificial silk.

There is an Amendment which deals with the question as to whether it is desirable to have that definition or not.

Shall we be allowed a wide scope for the discussion, or merely be confined to the definition?

It was understood that if we had a general Debate on the first Amendment, the other Amendments would be specific.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 125.

Division No. 136.]

AYES.

[8.15 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Campbell, E. T.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Cassels, J. D.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Albery, Irving James

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R (Prtsmth. S.)

Fermoy, Lord

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Fielden, E. B.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Chapman, Sir S.

Finburgh, S.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Fleming, D. P.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Christie, J. A.

Ford, P. J.

Atholl, Duchess of

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Forrest, W.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Clayton, G. C.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Balniel, Lord

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Ganzoni, Sir John

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Gates, Percy

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Cope, Major William

Gee, Captain R.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Couper, J. B.

Goff, Sir Park

Bennett, A. J.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Grace, John

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Grant, J. A,

Berry, Sir George

Crook, C. W.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Betterton, Henry B.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w. E)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey. Gainsbro)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol N.)

Blundell, F. N.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Brass, Captain W.

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Briggs, J. Harold

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Hammersley, S. S.

Briscoe, Richard George

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hanbury, C.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Harrison, G. J. C.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Duckworth, John

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Haslam, Henry C.

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hawke, John Anthony

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Ellis, R. G.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Burman, J. B.

Elveden, Viscount.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

England, Colonel A.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Hilton, Cecil

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Skelton, A. N.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Holland, Sir Arthur

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Holt, Captain H. P.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Smithers, Waldron

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Neville, R. J.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Nuttall, Ellis

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hume, Sir G. H.

Oakley, T.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hurst, Gerald B.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Pennefather, Sir John

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Penny, Frederick George

Templeton, W. P.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Jacob, A. E.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Jephcott, A. R.

Philipson, Mabel

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Pilcher, G.

Tinne, J. A.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Preston, William

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Price, Major C. W. M.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Lamb, J. Q.

Radford, E. A.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Looker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Warrender, Sir Victor

Loder, J. de V.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Looker, Herbert William

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Watts, Dr. T.

Lougher, L.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Wells, S. R.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Remer, J. R.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Remnant, Sir James

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Wilson, Sir Charles H.(Leeds, Central)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

MacIntyre, Ian

Rye, F. G.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

McLean, Major A.

Salmon, Major I.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Macmillan, Captain H.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Macquisten, F. A.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wolmer, Viscount

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Womersley, W. J.

Malone, Major P. B.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Sandon, Lord

Wood, Rt. Hon. E.(York, W. R., Ripon)

Margesson, Captain D.

Savery, S. S.

Worthington- Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Meller, R. J.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Merriman, F. B.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.ߞ

Meyer, Sir Frank.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Colonel Gibbs.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Kenyon, Barnet

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Gibbins, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Gillett, George M.

Lee, F.

Ammon, Charles George

Gosling, Harry

Livingstone, A. M.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Lunn, William

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Greenall, T.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Barnes, A.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Mackinder, W.

Barr, J.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

MacLaren, Andrew

Batey, Joseph

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

March, S.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Groves, T.

Montague, Frederick

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Grundy, T. W.

Morris, R. H.

Bromfield, William

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Bromley, J.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Murnin, H.

Buchanan, G.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Naylor, T. E.

Cape, Thomas

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Oliver, George Harold

Charleton, H. C.

Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Palin, John Henry

Clowes, S.

Hardie, George D.

Paling, W.

Cluse, W. S.

Harris, Percy A.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hayday, Arthur

Ponsonby, Arthur

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Hayes, John Henry

Potts, John S.

Compton, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Connolly, M.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Riley, Ben

Cove, W. G.

Hirst, G. H.

Ritson, J.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hirst, W.(Bradford, South)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Dalton, Hugh

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Scrymgeour, E.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Sexton, James

Day, Colonel Harry

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Dennison, R.

John, William (Rhondda. West)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Duncan, C.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Dunnico, H.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Fenby, T. D.

Kennedy, T.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Tinker, John Joseph

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Viant, S. P.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Stamford, T. W.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Stephen, Campbell

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Sutton, J. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Windsor, Walter

Taylor, R. A.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Wright, W.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Whiteley, W.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne.

Thurtle, E.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Question put accordingly, "That the word 'July' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 135.

Division No. 137.]

AYES.

[8.28 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Hume, Sir G. H.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Albery, Irving James

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Applin, colonel R. V. K.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. RT. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Jacob, A. E.

Atholl, Duchess of

Eden, Captain Anthony

Jephcott. A. R.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Ellis, R. G.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Balniel, Lord

E'veden, Viscount

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lamb, J. Q.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Everard, W. Lindsay

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Loder, J. de V.

Benn. Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Looker, Herbert William

Bennett, A. J.

Fermoy, Lord

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Fielden, E. B.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Berry, Sir George

Finburgh, S.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Betterton, Henry B.

Fleming, D. P.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Ford, P. J.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Foster, Sir Harry S.

MacIntyre, Ian

Blundell, F. N.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

McLean, Major A.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ganzoni, Sir John

Macmillan, Captain H.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gates, Percy

Macquisten, F. A.

Brass, captain W.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Gee, Captain R.

Malone, Major P. B.

Briscoe, Richard George

Goff, Sir Park

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Brittain, Sir Harry

Grace, John

Margesson, Captain D.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Grant, J. A.

Meller, R. J.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Merriman, F. B.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th 's' w, E)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Milne J. S. Wardlaw-

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Buckingham. Sir H.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E (Bristol, N.)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Burman, J. B.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Campbell, E. T.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Neville, R. J.

Cassels, J. D.

Hammersley, S. S.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hanbury, C.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Nuttall, Ellis

Chapman, Sir S.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Oakley, T.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Haslam, Henry C.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Christie, J. A.

Hawke, John Anthony

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Pennefather, Sir John

Clayton, G. C.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Penny, Frederick George

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford. Watford)

Philipson, Mabel

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Pilcher, G.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hilton, Cecil

Power, Sir John Cecil

Cope, Major William

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Preston, William

Couper, J. B.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Price, Major C. W. M.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Radford, E. A.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Crook, C. W.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Crookshank. Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Remer, J. R.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Remnant, Sir James

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Smithers, Waldron

Warrender, Sir Victor

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Wells, S. R.

Rye, F. G.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Salmon, Major I.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Sandon, Lord

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Savery, S. S.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Templeton, W. P.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Wolmer, Viscount

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Womersley, W. J.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

Skelton, A. N.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Colonel Gibbs.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Groves, T

Riley, Ben

Ammon, Charles George

Grundy, T. W.

Ritson, J.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Guest, Dr L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Barnes, A.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Scrymgeour, E.

Barr, J.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Sexton, James

Batey, Joseph

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hardie, George D.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Harris, Percy A.

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Briggs, J. Harold

Hayday, Arthur

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromfield, William

Hayes, John Henry

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromley, J.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Buchanan, G.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Charleton, H. C.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Clowes, S.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cluse, W. S.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Stephen, Campbell

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sutton, J. E.

Compton, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Taylor, R. A.

Connolly, M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Cove, W. G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kelly, W. T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dalton, Hugh

Kennedy, T.

Thurtle, E.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Kenyon, Barnet

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lawson, John James

Viant, S. P.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lee, F.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Dennison, R.

Livingstone, A. M.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Duckworth, John

Lowth, T.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Duncan, C.

Lunn, William

Watts, Dr. T.

Dunnico, H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mackinder, W.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

MacLaren, Andrew

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

England, Colonel A.

March, S.

Whiteley, W.

Fenby, T. D.

Montague, Frederick

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Forrest, W.

Morris, R. H.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Murnin, H.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gibbins, Joseph

Naylor, T. E.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gillett, George M.

Oliver, George Harold

Windsor, Walter

Gosling, Harry

Palin, John Henry

Wright, W.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Paling, W.

Greenall, T.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 12, after the word "twenty-five," to insert the words

"until the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six."

The object of this Amendment is to limit, at any rate in the first instance, the operation of these duties to the pre- sent financial year. I should think that it would be agreed, after the Debate to which we listened prior to the Division, that there are very good grounds for this Amendment. The inconsistencies embodied in the various statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer since he introduced his Budget have already been fully exposed by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden). It is clear from what has emerged in the Debate that the Chancellor himself has no real conception of what the effect of this duty will be. It seems therefore to be foolish for the Committee to pass a Clause which will shackle the trade by this tax for a long period, because it is obvious that if the Clause be passed, and if it be desired, as the result of experience to repeal the duty in 12 months, it will not be possible to put down an ordinary Amendment. The matter will have to be dealt with by putting on the Paper a new Clause which will come at the end of the discussion of all the other Amendments to the Finance Bill next year, making it exceedingly difficult to get the matter dealt with in a way satisfactory to those who have not been satisfied with the working of the duty. I doubt whether in the history of the imposition of any taxation of this character there has been any previous case in which a commodity like artificial silk, which cannot be described correctly as artificial silk, has been the subject of a new duty without having a definition of the actual article or commodity which is going to be subject to the duty.

I only want to make the point, in regard to the argument for limiting the operation of the duty to 12 months, that, if there is no definition of the actual commodity which is to come within the scope of the duty, it is likely that decisions of the administration during the coming financial year will be challenged, and perhaps carried to the Courts, and decisions arrived at which would necessitate very likely a change next year. If you have this duty fastened upon us for a very long time it would be unfair to the trade and to the House of Commons. We have had a great deal said as to what the actual effects of the duty are likely to be in the near future and ultimately by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley, and we have heard the hon. and gallant Member for Aylesbury (Sir A. Burgoyne), who spoke as if he were speaking with the authority, at any rate, of the retail trade with which he is connected. May I put it to the Financial Secretary that there is a far different view expressed as to what the effect of the operation of this duty is likely to be upon the consumers, not on single retail trades, but on large bodies of organised consumers like the co-operative movement, with which I am connected.

Only a few days ago, after full consideration of the Budget proposals as a whole, and of this duty in particular by the annual meeting at which about 2,000 delegates were present, representing organised consumers comprising 4,700,000 members, a resolution was adopted unanimously protesting against the piecemeal process of the Government in imposing Protection upon the community, and expressing the opinion of the trading side of the organised consumers' movement in this country that it was a very serious interference during the present financial year with trade in the various articles in which artificial silk and real silk are used. We submit therefore that it is unreasonable for the Government to say that this duty shall at once be imposed for a long period. In view of all our apprehensions and of the general position of the consumer, and of the possible need for revision, and the fact that the Government have given no definition of the article which they are going to tax on the artificial side, it is reasonable for the Government to accept the Amendment. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is really so optimistic as he professed to be at the end of his speech this evening as to the effect of his policy, surely he is not afraid of the matter being raised again de novo in the next Budget. If he is really not optimistic I can understand his refusal to accept the Amendment, but if he is optimistic that is another reason why he should accept the Amendment and let the matter come up for complete revision in fair circumstances of debate in 12 months' time.

The hon. Member in moving this Amendment dealt with only one side of this question— with the increase of taxation. He did not mention the remissions of taxation which are also part of the Budget, and even more important the permanent liability which is being incurred in connection with the Budget for the social legislation which is being proposed. We are in this first year a new Government laying the new foundations for our social legislation.

The hon. Member is straying very wide of the terms of this Amendment, and if he were allowed to proceed it would be open to other Members to go into these matters.

I will of course not pursue that subject any further, but I was not going to transgress the rules of order. I merely wished to point out that we are in this Budget founding what we believe to be a permanent adjustment of our national finance. It is not unusual for new duties to be put on a permanent basis. In the cases where they were made temporary it was during the War, when various new expedients were adopted on a temporary basis. That really is no longer the condition. We have every intention of retaining these Silk Duties as part of our normal fiscal procedure. The hon. Member said that we were shackling the power of the House to reconsider these matters. I do not think that that is a fair statement of the case. I say without fear of contradiction that it would be a departure from the normal procedure not to make these duties permanent. It is quite open to hon. Members on a Finance Bill to bring forward a new Clause. I agree that that may not be quite so convenient to hon. Members, but after all it is not for us to depart from normal precedents in order to make things easy for our opponents. We believe that these duties will be a very valuable and growing source of revenue, and for that reason we have every confidence in asking the House to accept them.

I must express my regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not been permitted by the Chair to go on digging further. I think he was digging the grave of the reputation of himself and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in proposing these duties. As it was out of order for him to continue his argument on that point, I cannot comment any further on the matter now. Ten minutes ago we were told of the remission of the Income Tax of the poor, and now we are told of pensions for widows. How many more purposes are these duties to serve?

I allowed the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary one sentence that was out of order. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has also completed one such sentence.

I shall not transgress further. I am glad that I had fair measure. The Financial Secretary appeared to think that when the Mover of the Amendment suggested that the duties should be made annual, he meant that they would necessarily be repealed at the end of a year. That was not the suggestion. I have no doubt that whenever a Labour or a Liberal Government comes into power they will be repealed. But it is not necessary, because a tax is made annual, that its yield shall cease at the end of the year. I challenge the Financial Secretary's statement that it is a war precedent alone that makes taxes annual taxes. He spoke as if it was something that grew up during the War. No doubt he was referring to the McKenna, Duties. But the Tea Duty is an annual tax which comes up for annual review. There is nothing at all improper in asking that these duties should be made annual, at any rate in the first instance. If they continue, the right hon. Gentleman may say of these what was said about the McKenna Duties: "We have tried them and found them good, and we propose to make them permanent." But that is not an argument to bring forward when those who are better qualified to judge than the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary are in the gravest doubt as to the effects of these taxes on trade.

I do not know how far I can go in reviewing the difficulties that may arise and make it necessary for this House to have a general survey of the taxes at the end of the year. I do not know whether I could ask the right hon. Gentleman how far he expects that the imposition of these duties will produce retaliation from foreign countries. Perhaps it would be better to reserve those questions until the Clause is discussed as a whole. Is it a fact that foreign Governments have made urgent representations to him as to the effect of this tax on their trade? Is anyone representing the Foreign Office able to tell us whether there have been representations from some, or one, of our largest customers', in reference to these taxes? Clearly, if these taxes are to create a disturbance in our export of other articles, that is an additional reason for saying that we ought to overhaul them at the end of 12 months. I am thinking of Switzerland particularly, and I shall refer to the matter again later when the right hon. Gentleman will have had an opportunity of receiving official information on the subject. The real case for the annual tax was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself in the speech which immediately preceded his closure of further debate by others. He said, "I am going to justify these taxes," and he spoke of the day when his predecessor; the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, would be shown to be wrong and would be covered with confusion, while the present Chancellor of the Exchequer would be shown to be right and covered with glory.

Was that all mere rhetoric or did it mean something? If it meant anything, it was that the tax was to be an annual tax. As the right hon. Gentleman knows full well, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not stand in his place giving the country a full account of the working of this new fiscal instrument unless it were made an annual instrument. The Financial Secretary has been lone enough a Member of an Opposition to know the value of the argument he used about the free right of the Opposition to propose the repeal of a tax. There would be no opportunity to discuss such a matter on its merits, except in the early hours of the morning. Substantive proposals of that kind have absolutely no chance of being seriously considered in the House. Therefore, I am driven to the conclusion that the Government do not want the House and the country to hear much about the way these taxes work. They want to get the power to pass the taxes and to make regulations. They have no sort of definite plan in their heads. They are asking the House to give them a blank cheque to impose a tax in a manner not known to themselves and not devised or even approved by the traders who are to be punished. Then they hope that that will be the last we shall hear of the working of a scheme, which many of us think will do damage to our industry. We shall never have an opportunity, except an inadequate chance at Question Time, of examining the working of the tax. We cannot do it in Supply. It can be done only on the Budget, and the right hon. Gentleman is purposely excluding it from the Budget. The case for the Amendment is overwhelming, and there is no answer to it. The Government's proposal is a great departure. Nothing of the kind has been done for about 80 years. It should be put in such a form as to call upon the Government by routine to give within one year an account of their stewardship.

I support the Amendment, because I feel that the House of Commons, and particularly the Opposition, ought to be exceedingly jealous of this Assembly's powers in respect of the financia1 control of the country. I thought this Amendment would have been regarded as a reasonable proposition by the Financial Secretary. It has been admitted that these taxes are in the nature of an experiment, and no one is able to state definitely what the effect is likely to be, though various prophecies and forecasts have been advanced. Some are inclined to believe that the imposition of these taxes will bring about a disruption of trade, and is likely to injure a comparatively young industry, while on the other hand we are informed that the Treasury and the Financial Secretary are quite optimistic as to their effects. I feel that the Financial Secretary ought to be pre-pared, on behalf of the Treasury, to accept the Amendment. They stand to lose nothing by doing so if they are convinced, as they have expressed themselves to be, that this tax is not going to impose undue hardship on industry or trade. It is in the interest of good government and good financial legislation that an Amendment of this kind should be accepted and I hope, even yet, the right hon. Gentleman-will see his way to agree to it without a Division. I am a comparatively young Member of this House, but I am already convinced that when once legislation of this kind has been placed upon the Statute Book, the chances of our being able again to discuss the principle of the proposals become exceedingly remote and because of that I feel that strenuous opposition should be offered to the Government in regard to this matter. If the Financial Secretary does not see the wisdom of accepting the proposal, I am inclined to feel that the country at large will place a construction upon this matter which will not be beneficial to any party. The public will fear that the principle has been established of placing upon the country taxes which are injurious without giving them that consideration which they ought to have and it will be felt that proper opportunity for discussing the merits of the main principle will have been taken from the House. As has already been stated, the general feeling obtains among a section of the electorate that Protection is being forced upon them by indirect methods. I believe the Government itself stands to gain or retain a

measure of confidence by allowing the principle of these taxes to be discussed again in 12 months time.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 241.

Division No. 138.]

AYES.

[9.2 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Groves, T.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Grundy, T. W.

Riley, Ben

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Ritson, J.

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Scrymgeour, E.

Barnes, A.

Hardie, George D.

Sexton, James

Barr, J.

Harney, E. A.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Batey, Joseph

Harris, Percy A.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hayday, Arthur

Sitch, Charles H.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayes, John Henry

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Briggs, J. Harold

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Bromfield, William

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Bromley, J.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Buchanan, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cape, Thomas

Hutchison, sir Robert (Montrose)

Stamford, T. W.

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Stephen, Campbell

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sutton, J. E.

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Taylor, R. A.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Compton, Joseph

Kelly, W. T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Connolly, M.

Kennedy, T.

Thurtle, E

Cove, W. G.

Kenyon, Barnet

Tinker, John Joseph

Dalton, Hugh

Lawson, John James

Viant, S. P.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Lee, F.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Livingstone, A. M.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Day, Colonel Harry

Lowth, T.

Warne, G. H.

Dennison, R.

Lunn, William

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Duckworth, John

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Duncan, C.

Mackinder, W.

Webb, Rt. Hon Sidney

Dunnico, H.

MacLaren, Andrew

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

March, S.

Whiteley, W.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Montague, Frederick

England, Colonel A.

Morris, R. H.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Fenby, T. D.

Morrison, B. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Forrest, W.

Murnin, H.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Naylor, T. E.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gillett, George M.

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gosling, Harry

Palin, John Henry

Windsor, Walter

Greenall, T.

Paling, W.

Wright, W.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ponsonby, Arthur

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Potts, John S.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T. Henderson.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Chapman, Sir S.

Albery, Irving James

Brass, Captain W.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Christie, J. A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Briscoe, Richard George

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Atholl, Duchess of

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Clayton, G. C.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Balfour George (Hampstead)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Balniel Lord

Brown, Maj. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Cooper, A. Duff

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Buckingham, Sir H.

Cope, Major William

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Burman, J. B.

Couper, J. B.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Bennett, A. J.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Butt, Sir Alfred

Crook, C. W.

Berry Sir George

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Betterton, Henry B.

Campbell, E. T.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Cassels, J. D.

Crook shank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Blundell, F. N.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Remer, J. R.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Remnant, Sir James

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hurst, Gerald B.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Rye, F. G.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Salmon, Major I.

Elveden, Viscount.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Jacob, A. E.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Jephcott, A. R.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Everard, W. Lindsay

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sandon, Lord

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Lamb, J. O

Savery, S. S.

Fermoy Lord

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Finburgh, S

Loder, J. de V.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Fleming, D. P.

Looker, Herbert William

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Ford, P. J.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Skelton, A. N.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Galbraith, J. F. W.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C)

Ganzoni, Sir John

MacIntyre, Ian

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Gates, Percy

McLean, Major A.

Smithers, Waldron

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Macmillan, Captain H

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Gee, Caption R.

Macquisten, F. A.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)

Goff, Sir Park

Malone, Major P. B.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Grace John

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Grant, J. A.

Margesson, Captain D.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Greene W. P Crawford

Meller, R. J.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Templeton, W. P.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Tinne, J. A.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Hammersley, S. S.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Hanbury C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Harland, A.

Neville, R. J.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Harrison, G. J. C.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wells, S. R.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Nuttall, Ellis

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Haslam, Henry C.

Oakley, T.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Hawke, John Anthony

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pennefather, Sir John

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Penny, Frederick George

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Philipson, Mabel

Wolmer, Viscount

Hilton, Cecil

Pilcher, G.

Womersley, W. J.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Preston, William

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Radford, E. A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Lord Stanley and Mr. F. C. Thomson.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 14, after the word "articles," to insert the words "of silk."

I have no desire to weary the Committee with a superabundance of technical knowledge, but I can perhaps take this opportunity to refer to one or two points of criticism which were raised in speeches following my own on a previous Amendment. The object of this Amendment is to exempt imported artificial silk from the Customs Duty, and I want to point out to the Financial Secretary some of the difficulties he will experience when he attempts to put into operation a Customs Duty on imported artificial silk.

I will do no more than refer to the first item of drawbacks contained on page 21 of the Bill. I referred to it briefly on my previous Amendment, and perhaps I may do it with some little expansion now. It there states: Customs officials will have to show that it contains 11 per cent. or less in order to get out of that expectation of 1 per cent. rebate. I repeat what I said previously, that neither the Treasury nor the Customs can determine how much moisture there is in a particular article, and get any certificate that is worth having, unless they send it to the City of Bradford Conditioning House, to be tested for moisture. It is quite true, as the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) said, that there are places up and down the country where they can test it, but they cannot accompany the result of such a test with a certificate which will stand in a court of law. There is only one conditioning house certificate in this country which cannot be challenged in a court of law, and that is the certificate for moisture sent out by the City of Bradford Corporation Conditioning House. I suggest to the Treasury that they may put up places to test this material. It will cost them something to do it, and I suggest that they cannot import 10,000,000 pounds of goods into this country without having a great difficulty in that respect. I feel that it is misguided finance which is going to put a tax on this material.

As I said earlier, I have been spending the week in the delightful town of Leek, and while I was there made a few inquiries. I have brought a tie back, which I have in my hand, made of artificial silk. [An HON. MEMBER: "A nice one, too!"] Yes, it is a nice one, and they are produced and put on the market at 7½d. each. Any hon. Member opposite who wanted to buy one in a shop would have to pay 2s. 6d. for the same tie, which is produced and put on the market, all manufacturer's costs paid and profits got out of it, at 7s. 6d. per dozen. I want to ask the Financial Secretary, if there is a duty of Is. 6d. per lb. on imported artificial silk, and a proportion of that duty is put on to a tie that costs 7½d. to-day, how much will it cost when it gets from the manufacturer, and goes through the chain of middlemen to the consumer? I want the Committee to remember that I once sat on a Profiteering Committee, and that we discovered five wholesalers and three retailers before the article got to the consumer. When it goes through the chain of first, second, third, fourth, and fifth wholesaler, and then goes through the successive chains of retailers, I suggest that that 2s. 6d. tie will cost something like 3s. 6d. before it reaches the consumer. That is a quite reasonable argument to use, and it is futile and foolish for hon. Members to say the tax on artificial silk will not mean an increased price to the consumer. It is all very well for the Chancellor of the Exchequer ingeniously to find a device whereby silk stockings will not pay more by having an inch added to the cotton top of the stockings. He is not the arbiter of how many inches of cotton should be put on the top of a silk stocking. The arbiter on that matter is going to be the woman who buys the stockings. I do not desire to weary the House with more technicalities, and I will content myself with moving the Amendment.

I am a little puzzled by the argument which has been advanced by the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), and I feel the more difficulty over it because he is an expert in these matters, while I am a mere ignorant layman. He began his argument by showing us the difficulties which would be involved by a tax on real silk.

I am dealing with a tax on artificial silk. I am moving that artificial silk be exempted. I point out that 10,000,000 lbs. of artificial silk comes into this country, and that there will be a tremendous difficulty in getting all this passed through the conditioning house to ascertain how much moisture it contains.

But I understand that artificial silk does not take up moisture like real silk.

We are told by those opposed to the duty that one of the great disadvantages of artificial silk from the clothing point of view is that, whereas real silk does take up moisture, and is therefore a pleasant fabric to wear, artificial silk is not porous, and does not absorb moisture.

It will if it is put under the watering-can. [ Laughter. ] I have seen it done and I have done it.

The hon. Member developed an argument which is quite new to the House in urging that artificial silk was capable of absorbing moisture. If that be so, and if artificial silk be free from the objection which we have been told attaches to its use for clothing in that it did not absorb moisture, the case is stronger than ever for our argument that we must include artificial silk in the Customs and Excise Regulations if we do not want to transfer not only the decorative and upholstery business in real silk to artificial silk, but also the trade in real silk for clothing purposes to its new competitor.

The hon. Member's Amendment does not stand alone. The proposal is to exclude artificial silk from the operation of the Customs Duty, but, of course, this is merely a prelude to a further proposal to exclude artificial silk from the operation of the Excise. If those two proposals were carried it would mean a loss of revenue of £1,100,000 in the current year, and a loss in a full year of £1,750,000. If, as has been stated, artificial silk is suitable not only for upholstery work but also for clothing, as being largely indistinguishable from real silk in regard to the absorption of moisture, there would be an increased loss of revenue by the transfer of the demand which now exists for real silk to its artificial competitor.

I would not like the Committee to think I had said that it was largely indistinguishable from real silk on account of the moisture absorbed. What I said was that if an importer sent here a quantity of artificial silk which he stated contained up to 12 per cent. of moisture, instead of 11 per cent., it would have to be tested in order to see if that were correct.

I know the hon. Member is an expert, and I welcome for my own information what he has said about artificial silk taking up moisture, and that, no less than with real silk, there is a necessity for distinguishing its moisture content. If artificial silk is a substitute for real silk, it is obvious that by increasing the difference between the cost of real and artificial silk by taxing the one and exempting the other from taxation you will rapidly transfer the demand from the real to the artificial article. We are all a little bit prejudiced on this question at the present time, and I think the only way in which we can get a fair view is to refer back to statements which were made before this duty was ever mooted. Statements have been quoted from an article in the "Manchester Guardian" which was published before the duty was proposed. May I give a quotation about Celanese from the same article:

"Celanese yarn enables manufacturers to produce woven and knitted fabrics of rare quality and beauty, fabrics that drape perfectly and have the handle, texture and appearance of fine silk cloths."

An earlier statement was that made by the Board of Trade Committee on the Silk Industry in 1923. They said they were impressed by the fact that the majority of foreign samples brought to their notice as competing with British products were composed entirely or partly of artificial silk and that witnesses emphasised the growing use of this material. They give details as to how they compete and end:

"It is, therefore, not possible to distinguish the pure silk section from the industry as a whole, and we have regarded the expression ' the silk industry' in our terms of reference as including artificial silk."

That has nothing to do with the distinction between real and artificial silk, which is the subject of the Amendment. If I were to go into the general recommendations of the Committee, I am sure that the Chairman would very soon call me to order. The denial that these two fabrics are largely interchangeable has developed entirely since the Silk and Artificial Silk Duties were proposed. I think we shall be wise to be guided by the opinions expressed by experts before the duties were brought forward. I have little doubt that if we were to accept this Amendment we should make the whole of these Silk Duties unworkable and that in an increasing degree it would deprive us of that revenue which is the reason for their introduction.

I had hoped the right hon. Gentleman might have answered the very important point raised by me as to the application of this tax to artificial silk lace, which is imported in very large quantities. Are we to understand that this duty will apply to lace made articles? It is a most important factor upon which I think the Committee is entitled to have an explanation. I do not know whether the Financial Secretary is in a position to state whether the Schedule is now fixed or whether it is to be re-considered. The point I think the Committee at this stage wants to be clear about is, is the Schedule fixed or is it in a state of being reconsidered? If the Financial Secretary can give us an answer to that question, I think it might clear the atmosphere and enable us to get through our business very much quicker. We are told it is being reconsidered and that in a few hours the Schedule will be changed. We shall be very glad to hear from the Financial Secretary what is the position.

I have not yet been able to get any definite information as to whether the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) intends to move the Amendment of which he gave me notice.

I do not quite understand where we are. The hon. Member is talking about an Amendment which has not yet been handed to me.

I had not handed it in, but, with the permission of the Chair, I propose to move a new Sub-section to Clause 4 dealing with the double taxation of these articles.

I thought some information had reached the hon. and gallant Gentleman by now with regard to double taxation. That subject is dealt with in the Schedule. There is a provision nearly identical with what the hon. and gallant Gentleman proposes, and the right place if he is not satisfied with the definition would be to move an Amendment to it.

I would like, when it comes to the moment, to give reasons for being allowed to move my Amendment. Part II is not really the place where it should properly be made.

Would the right hon. Gentleman see his way to give an answer to the question whether we may regard the Schedule referred to in this Clause as fixed, or whether he proposes to amend it?

No. Clause 4 says certain Schedule duties shall be imposed. Can he tell us whether this Schedule stands, or whether he is proposing to put Amendments later on the Paper to deal with it?

I should like to ask whether it is the intention of the Financial Secretary or the Chancellor to accept an Amendment to make changes with regard to the figures in the Schedule? If it is not, it would perhaps be convenient for the Committee to learn at once what the intention of the Chancellor actually is. I do not want to take up a lot of time with these Debates at all. If it is the intention of the Government to use their majority to uphold their decisions embodied in the Schedule, we know perfectly well it will be carried. I regret very much indeed that artificial silk is included at all. It would have been some gratification to Members on this side of the Committee to have learned that the Government were at last prepared to remove from the provisions of their Finance Bill the question of artificial silk, because it has become a texture that is finding its way into the homes of the working classes of this country, either in the shape of materials or clothes or stockings. Still, I should like to know what the intentions of the Government are, and then we shall be able to act accordingly.

I should like to express my regret that the Government should have thought fit to tax this artificial product in the way they have done. From my point of view it is an article which is very desirable indeed. It is exceedingly suitable for use, and I regret very much that the Government should seek to tax an article which I believe conduces very much to the artistic pleasure of large numbers of people, and which is going to conduce to it in a great deal larger degree in the future than at present. This material is exceedingly beautiful, and it is most desirable from every point of view that its use should be encouraged. It is entering into the furnishing trade to a very large extent., and it is very desirable to have new methods for the specific use of this material. I have seen some of the effects which can be produced by the use of this very beautiful material and I regret the Government are placing obstacles in the way of a far wider use of it. Anything that conduces to the artistic development of our people and induces them to make extensive use of beautiful fabrics is something to be encouraged in every possible way. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not doing that. He is taxing poor people who have a desire to make more use of it than they have done in the past. It is exceedingly bad that he should use his power like a highwayman, putting his financial pistol at the head of the community to extract this tribute from them in the way he is doing. He is a perfect Claude Duval of the financial highway, and while he is ready to dance a measure with the maiden on the greensward, he robs her at the price of her silken garments. He is extremely mean, and I should have hoped the Government might have taken that point of view and found some other method to have raised the relatively small sum they would raise from this means, and left the large majority of the people to gratify a growing love for beauty in their lives.

I should not be in order in answering the question put to me about double taxation. The hon. Member for East Bradford (Mr. Fenby) asked whether this Schedule was in its final form and he suggested that we were using our Parliamentary majority in an unreasonable way. Earlier in the afternoon another hon. Member suggested that we were giving way unduly. I do not think we need be ashamed of giving way. We have already said that these duties are very novel in their character, and therefore it is essential that we should impose them in a form convenient to trade. It is possible that certain Amendments may be put down before the Report stage. Hon. Members heard what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said this afternoon. There are various points which clearly suggested in the speech made by my hon. Friend that certain Amendments might be necessary. For instance, he stated with regard to drawbacks that there would be a chance of manufacturers taking their rebate on the separate rates which they had actually paid provided they would do it for a year. An Amendment of that kind necessarily means a modification of the Schedule, and with regard to details of that description it is quite possible before the Report stage that minor alterations may be made.

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I make this proposal in order to find out exactly where we stand. The practice of the House has always been to put the real power in the Clause. The Chairman no doubt will say that no general matter can be discussed on the Schedule, because the Clause gives the enacting power. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, whether it is in accordance with the practice of the Committee if the Government intend to alter the rates in the Schedule they should not give notice before the Clause is passed. Here we are authorising the imposition of rates in a Schedule when we do not know what the Schedule is going to be. If we had an Amendment on the Paper, the course of business would no doubt prevent further consideration, but in this case we do not know, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not know, in fact nobody knows what is going to happen, because it is not clear that the Government will be able to find any proposal that is workable. I submit that we cannot be asked to proceed with the consideration of a Clause authorising a Schedule when the Government admit that they are going to amend the Schedule and they have not tabled their Amendments.

I take it that the answer given means that so far as the Amendments on the Paper are concerned not one of them is going to be accepted.

I think, before we proceed further with this Bill, we should receive some more information. My information is that the machinery of the committee has been set up. I do not wish to delay this Bill—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—I am going to see that the House of Commons gets the information it requires. I understand the machinery of the committee has been set up by the Treasury. What has been the result of the interviews which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had with the merchants concerned? I understand that there is no guarantee that any scheme can be devised in regard to these drawbacks which can be worked. In order to make this scheme conform with the policy of this committee representing the merchants, a machinery committee has been set up. They have held meetings, and up to this moment that committee has failed to come to any agreement. My information is even worse than that, because it is to the effect that the more the committee goes on exploring the ground the less hope there is of them coming to any agreement. I have received that information from those interested in the successful operation of this scheme.

What is the position we are now in? We are asked to pass this Clause referring to Part 3 of the Second Schedule, and what happens is that this House will say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government, "we believe in drawbacks and there must be drawbacks, but we are not sufficiently interested to do our duty and see that the drawbacks are devised in such a way that a serious injury will not be done to trade." With all due deference, and a desire to do nothing beyond securing information, I really must protest against the way in which this question is being dealt with. Before Clause 4 is passed the Government ought to give us an indication of the scheme of drawbacks which this machinery committee is going to devise, and if they do not do that, and the Government force this Bill through by their majority, they will not be acting fairly to the House of Commons.

On a point of Order. May I suggest that it would be far more convenient for this discussion to proceed on the ordinary Motion to report Progress than on an Amendment which is entirely irrelevant and out of order.

I have already ruled that I cannot accept the hon. and gallant Member's Motion. As to whether the discussion on the drawbacks is or is not out of order, I will decide that question as the discussion proceeds.

I do not think there is any need for apprehension on the part of the Committee in regard to the scheme of drawbacks and duties set out in this Bill, and I do not think they will undergo any substantial alteration. It may be that on the Report stage some provision may be introduced of a minor character in regard to the application of the method of drawback, but this Schedule of duties and drawbacks I think may be taken as the whole policy of the Government. I have never heard it laid down before that the Government in no circumstances, and no matter how many reasonable speeches were made and agreement reached here or out of doors, are not to make any alteration, and that if there is any idea of making any alteration then the discussion in the earlier stages is vitiated. That would be to reduce Parliamentary procedure to a farce. All the labours of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, so strenuous to himself and so onerous to others, would go for nothing. No, we say our full and frank intention is represented by these schedules of duties and drawbacks and at the same time we naturally hold ourselves free to profit by Parliamentary discussion in the later stages of this Bill.

May I press for an answer to the question I have put? Is it the intention of the Government to accept any of the Amendments down on the Paper? [HON. MEMBERS: " Why should they?"]

I really think it would be discourteous to those Members who have taken the trouble to contribute to our discussions by putting Amendments on the Paper, to prejudge them before I have even heard the arguments which may be advanced. I should certainly not attempt to lay down the rule that, no matter what new argument is adduced, we are bound to a stony adhesion to our position.

I am greatly surprised that any hon. Member should ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to fix his views' now. It would be a most remarkable thing for him to say now what he is going to think to-morrow. It is a most improper thing to ask him, but I think that the attitude of tyranny which the right hon. Gentleman adopts in these debates is not justified.

I must remind the Committee that it is a question of a tax on silk or artificial silk. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has now defined the position that this Clause must be read substantially as a whole with the Schedule. We must now come back to the point of the Amendment, which is whether the words "of silk" should be inserted.

Would it not be better to wait until the Clause as a whole comes up before discussing whether the Schedule will require Amendment or not?

I was desiring to keep within the point of Order. My case is that, first of all, the Financial Secretary says, "We are going, I may tell you, to amend the Schedule." The Chancellor of the Exchequer then stamps into the House like Colonel Pryde and says, "We are not going to amend the Schedule on artificial silk." We do not know if the superior authority of the Chancellor of the Exchquer overrides the courteous information, albeit inaccurate, given us by the Financial Secretary. Now the material fact is that behind all this is a struggle of the trade to get a schedule

of artificial silk which will work. The fact is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer invited them to meet him. First of all the Chancellor gave them a schedule, and they said it would not work, and then he proposed the through ticket.

I understood the hon. and gallant Gentleman was addressing some question to me. I had not entirely grasped the purport of the question and, therefore, I asked him to repeat it. If there is no such question I can only express my regret at having thought that there was.

The question which I addressed to you was this: Whether these remarks were more appropriate on the Question that the Clause stand part or at this point?

They are appropriate to neither—neither on this occasion nor on the Question that the Clause stand part, but they may be appropriate when we come to the Schedule.

Question put, "That the words 'of silk' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 250.

Division No. 139.]

AYES.

[9.53 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Fenby, T. D.

Kennedy, T.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Forrest, W.

Kenyon, Barnet

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lawson, John James

Ammon, Charles George

Gibbins, Joseph

Lee, F.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Gillett, George M.

Livingstone, A. M.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Gosling, Harry

Lowth, T.

Barnes, A.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Lunn, William

Barr, J.

Greenall, T.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Batey, Joseph

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mackinder, W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

MacLaren, Andrew

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Groves, T.

March, S.

Briant, Frank

Grundy, T. W.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Bromfield, William

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Montague, Frederick

Bromley, J.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Morris, R. H.

Buchanan, G.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Cape, Thomas

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Murnin, H.

Charleton, H. C.

Hardie, George D.

Naylor, T. E.

Clowes, S.

Harney, E. A.

Oliver, George Harold

Cluse, W. S.

Harris, Percy A.

Palin, John Henry

Clynes, Right Hon. John R.

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Paling, W.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Hayday, Arthur

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Compton, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Ponsonby, Arthur

Connolly, M.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Potts, John S.

Cove, W. G.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hirst, G. H.

Riley, Ben

Dalton, Hugh

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Ritson, J.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Rose, Frank H.

Day, Colonel Harry

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Dennison, R.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Scrymgeour, E.

Duckworth, John

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sexton, James

Duncan, C.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Dunnico, H.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sitch, Charles H.

England, Colonel A.

Kelly, W. T.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Smith, Ban (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Whiteley, W.

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Thurtle, E.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Tinker, John Joseph

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Snell, Harry

Varley, Frank B.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Viant, S. P.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Stamford, T. W.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Stephen, Campbell

Warne, G. H.

Windsor, Walter

Sutton, J. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Wright, W.

Taylor, R. A.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Albery, Irving James

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Jacob, A. E.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Jephcott, A. R.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Atholl, Duchess of

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lamb, J. Q.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Loder, J. de V.

Balniel, Lord

Elveden, Viscount.

Looker, Herbert William

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.

Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Falle, Sir Bertram G

MacIntyre, Ian

Bennett, A. J.

Fermoy, Lord

McLean, Major A.

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Fielden, E. B.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Berry, Sir George

Finburgh S.

Macquisten, F. A.

Betterton, Henry B.

Fleming, D. P.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Ford, P. J.

Malone, Major P. B.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Forestier-Walker Sir .

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Blundell, F. N.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Margesson, Captain D.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Gates Percy

Meller, R. J.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Brass, Captain W.

Gee, Captain R.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Briscoe, Richard George

Goff Sir Park

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Gower, Sir Robert

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Grace, John

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Greene, W P Crawford

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Murchison, C. K.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Buckingham, Sir H.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Burman, J. B.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Neville, R. J.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hall Lieut. Col. Sir F (Dulwich)

Nield, Rt. Hon, Sir Herbert

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Nuttall, Ellis

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hammersley S. S.

Oakley, T.

Campbell, E. T.

Hanbury C.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Cassels, J. D.

Harland A

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Harrison G. J. C.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Cayzer, Maj. .Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Harvey Majors E. (Devon Totnes)

Pennefather, Sir John

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Haslam Henry C.

Penny, Frederick George

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hawke, John Anthony

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Chapman, Sir S.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Philipson, Mabel

Christie, J. A.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Preston, William

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Clayton, G. C.

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Radford, E. A.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hilton, Cecil

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Holland, Sir Arthur

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Cooper, A. Duff

Holt, Captain H. P

Remer, J. R.

Cope, Major William

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Remnant, Sir James

Couper, J. B.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Crook, C. W.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Rye, F. G.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Salmon, Major I.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hutchison, G. A. Cark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Sandon, Lord

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Savery, S. S.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Shepperson, E. W.

Templeton, W. P.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Skelton, A. N.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Wolmer, Viscount

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Womersley, W. J.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Smithers, Waldron

Wallace, captain D. E.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Wells, S. R.

Colonel Gibbs and Major Hennessy.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Storry, Deans, R.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

The next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris), in page 3, line 16, after the word " respectively." to insert the words

"from countries in which import duties comparable in amount to those imported by this Section are levied upon such articles exported from Great Britain or Northern Ireland"—

should be dealt with by a new Clause. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) has handed in an Amendment which, I think, should come on one of the Schedules, but I understand that the hon. and gallant Member wishes to submit the point now, and I shall be glad to hear him.

You kindly sent me a message directing my attention to paragraph 2 of Part III of the Second Schedule, but that does not quite cover the point of my Amendment. My Amendment is to safeguard any article from double duty, and it is in quite general terms, forbidding the putting of a duty on anything in addition to the Silk Duty or in excess of the amount of the Silk Duty. If you will look at paragraph 2 of Part III of the Second Schedule, you will see that it only refers to articles coming under Clause 3, which relates to what are commonly called the McKenna Duties; so that my Amendment is much wider, and is not covered by paragraph 2. Therefore, with your permission, I should like to move it.

The words of the Schedule refer to duties under this particular Clause of the Bill, and it is quite true that, as they now stand, they only except articles chargeable to duty under this and Clause 3, but it will be quite in order for the hon. and gallant Member to seek to make that provision more general, and, as the whole matter is dealt with there, I think that that will be the proper place at which to raise it.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

There is one point which I should have raised before had not the Debate terminated earlier than we anticipated, and for that reason it is necessary to raise it on the Question, " That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I submit that the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in defence of the Clause, just prior to the time when the Debate came to an end, brilliant as that speech was, like all his speeches, from a rhetorical point of view, was completely unsatisfactory to those who are speaking here on behalf of those interested in the industry and in its success. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not deal with any of the points of substance and of detail, but merely rode off on general assertions clothed in his usual very eloquent language. I would Very much rather, for my part, have had a businesslike statement from the Financial Secretary, who is seized of the details of the matter, than a general political defence by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because it is a business matter that we are discussing at this moment.

The first point that I would put to the Financial Secretary is, what is he going to do about the drawbacks? The Chancellor of the Exchequer merely told us he was going to do something. His phrase was that this Schedule represents the results of the consideration of this matter by the Treasury and the Board of Trade. Anyone listening to that would have thought that it was a considered document, in connection with which objections had been advanced and met, and some sort of concordat arrived at, and I ventured to interject, I hope not ungenerously, "Had they agreed?" The Chancellor said, "No, of course not." They had not agreed; but, if they had not, his phrase that this Schedule represented the result of consideration between the Treasury and the trade really meant nothing at all.

I understand the situation is as follows: First of all, the Chancellor of the Exchequer produced his Schedule, and then, finding it would not work at all, he summoned a special meeting on the 2nd June of representatives of the Northern trades, the manufacturers of Lancashire cotton, and so forth, and artificial silk, and he proposed to them this scheme, which he described, with his usual facility of phrase, as the through-ticket, and I am told that the representatives of the trade who heard his description of this proposed through-ticket declared unanimously that it could not be worked. Then there is this third scheme, which, I understand, was put forward by representatives of the Northern trades, that articles containing less than 20 per cent, of artificial silk should be lifted out of the scheme. That would involve a considerable modification of the Schedule. I understand the matter broke off, although I heard from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce this morning that they had approved such a scheme, and I think they said Huddersfield had joined in such approval. Many hon. Members opposite sit for divisions in the North-West of the country, and I hope they will join me in pressing the Treasury to give us an answer as to whether the proposal that there should be a 20 per cent, limit has been seriously considered by the Treasury. It would relieve the trades which use a certain proportion of the tissue in the body of other fabrics from a great deal of their trouble, and I certainly think, before we part with the Clause, we should know what the decision has been in reference to that matter. Whatever the Chancellor of the Exchequer may say, we are giving him the power here to impose rates in the Schedule. He speaks as if the Schedule were the thing, but, in point of fact, it is the Clause in the Bill, and if you part with the Clause before you find out what is in the Schedule, you are really giving away a power you may need later on.

My own feeling about the Clause is that it is quite impossible for the Government to bring it into force in three weeks' time, if it be true that no agreement has been reached with the, trade. There is one further point of a more general kind which has not been dealt with, and if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to deal with it, it might perhaps gratify his own supporters. This tax has now become a protective instrument; it is one of a series of advances in Protection made in the course of the Budget. There is one further point I wish to make before I come to the question of the double tax, and that is the possible effect on the tariffs of other countries. I know, of course, that what I am about to say will be received with derision by hon. Members, who say they are proud of being Britons, and pretend not to care what other nations think of us.

Why does the hon. and gallant Gentleman say "pretend." Is he an authority on pretending?

The sole observation we have had from the serried ranks of the Trappists does not convey a very great amount of meaning.

I was referring to the statement of the hon. and gallant Member as to pretending about British interests. Is he an authority on pretending?

That interlude, I think, is best passed over without any comment. I say that it is possible that the imposition of this duty may excite retaliation in the tariffs of other countries. I expect hon. Gentleman opposite to say they do not mind what other countries do, and that we can look after ourselves. It is a very proper spirit, which does credit to those who exhibit it, but, surely, from a business point of view, it is not wise to alter our tariffs so as to excite the raising of tariffs in markets important to our exporters. I am told the Swiss have been making representations, through the agency of their Foreign Minister, on this matter. As it happens, this Budget lays a particular penalty upon Swiss products. I agree it is not our business to consider particularly this or that country, but, in point of fact, clocks, watches, lace and some gramophone machinery form a very large part of the Swiss exports to this country. On the other hand, the Swiss market is not an unimportant market to our manufacturers. In 1923, the exports of British goods to Switzerland amounted to £10,000,000, of which £3,000,000 was for cotton goods and £2,000,000 for woollen goods. Therefore, the question which, in common prudence, we should take into account is, is it right to provoke, in a market which is particularly penalised by this and other duties, the raising of a tariff which would obviously affect an important part of our export trade?

There is one final point, and that is in reference to the double tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer last night, when I asked him a question, said there would be no double tax at all. He said it was their intention that 33⅓ per cent, should be the rate, whether it be for McKenna purposes, for silk purposes or for Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. We feared that, because so many efforts were being pushed in various directions in order to protect this industry and that industry, we might arrive at the stage when some articles would be put to a double tax, that is, double the 33⅓ per cent. They might come under one duty for 33⅓ per cent., under another duty for a further 33J per cent., and they might even come under a third category. So that, in the aggregate, duties amounting to 66 per cent, or 99 per cent, might be imposed upon some goods. The Chancellor was very explicit about this and pointed out, at the instance of some of us, that when the Safeguarding of Industries Act was passed in 1921 a special Sub-section was inserted to say that duties levied upon the articles mentioned in the Schedules to Part I of that Act should not be in addition to any other duties to which they were liable. The Chancellor repeated that last night, and said their intention was not to impose more than one 33 per cent, on any one class. We live in very changed times in the practice of the House. I do not know whether the attention of the Financial Secretary has been called to the fact that to-morrow the Ways and Means Committee is to meet again, and the President of the Board of Trade is going to move for a new tax. I have certainly never heard of a President of the Board of Trade moving for a new tax, but to-morrow it is to be done, and the President of the Board of Trade, who apparently knows nothing of the pledges given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is, after all, supposed to be the custodian of the Treasury and the proper channel of taxation, has put a Motion on the Paper to lay a tax on lace, and so far from even leaving open the question as to whether the tax on lace should be in addition to the Silk Duty, which might also be imposed on lace—

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is making the speech he should have made on the Amendment which he agreed to move on Sub-section (2) of Part III of the Second Schedule. It has nothing to do with this Clause.

I do not want to wander too far, but I submit that inasmuch as this Clause lays a Customs Duty of 33⅓ per cent, in some cases, and in some cases a specific duty, I might, inquire whether it is the intention that that should be the sole duty laid upon these articles, or whether they are to be taxable under another Resolution. That is the only purpose of my inquiry, to ask the Financial Secretary whether these duties in this Clause are to be the sole duties levied upon silk or whether this same silk, which is dutiable under this Clause, is going to be made the subject to-morrow of another Resolution taxing it another 33⅓ per cent, moved by the President of the Board of Trade.

There are one or two statements I would have made earlier in the evening if I had not been interrupted, and I should like to make them before the Committee finally comes to a decision on this Clause. I cannot claim in any way to speak, as other hon. Members have spoken, as experts either from the point of view of the manufacturers, the merchants, the Treasury, or the operatives, but I can claim to speak at any rate from the point of view of one class of persons who, I think, have largely, in fact, too largely, been left out of consideration in the discussions which have ranged about these proposed new taxes, and that is the class of consumers. I very much regret that there was not a fuller House to listen earlier in the evening to some remarks made by the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead), who introduced a point of view with regard to this tax, which I think even hon. Members opposite will admit is deserving of a good deal of consideration. It is that this particular fabric is not one of the luxuries, but one of the few means that a large class of people, particularly young women in this country, have of doing something to raise their standard of life. [HON. MEMBERS: "Silk stockings!"] I very much regret that—

With all due respect, may I ask whether this is an Amendment or a Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill"?

The particular Question before the Committee is that the Clause stand part of the Bill. A full and general discussion has been allowed to take place, and, obviously, we cannot have it all over again.

With the very greatest respect, I wish to submit that I was in my place and prepared to take part in that discussion. I had purposely not intervened earlier in the Debate because it was then in the hands of experts and I was not able to contribute anything to the line of argument that was then being pursued. When I made an attempt to say what I wished to say, the Closure was moved, and, in my view—

Is it not a fact when the Closure is moved, whilst there are large numbers of Members who wish to speak, that any understanding about the limitation of Debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part," is absolutely broken by the Government?

Being a little unused to the forms of the House, I am at a loss to know how far I am able to proceed. I wished to put to the Committee before a decision is taken what I regard as being a very vital feature in connection with this particular Clause, and that is, that it is going to create a definite hardship for a large class of people whom I represent in this House. This seems to me to be the only opportunity I have of putting that point of view. I will not proceed with the exact point that I was making when you called me to order. I will pass from that, hoping that the Committee will realise the point of view that I wished to put. I will pass on to the next point, namely, that that kind of hardship can only be justified if really valid reasons are advanced for putting on this particular tax. In my view no case whatever in these Debates has been made out for the imposition of these taxes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer this evening in his contribution to the Debate gave us again, as he has so often given us, evidence of his great command of language, and additional evidence of what he is at the moment, apparently, developing, namely, his great command of reiteration.

He said once more that the balance of his Budget could not he disturbed in any particular, because if you disturb part of it you disturb the whole of it. I am going to make a suggestion to the Financial Secretary to convey, if he will, to his right hon. Friend—that the balance of the Budget will be disturbed if you add an additional tax just as much as it would be disturbed if you took away a tax.

The hon. Member is doing exactly what I asked him not to do. He is entering into a discussion on this particular Amendment It was decided earlier in the Debate that the general discussion should take place upon the first Amendment.

May I submit that under the Rules of the House there is no doubt that on the Question that the Clause stand part a discussion on the Clause in general may take place. I am aware that there was an understanding that there should be a free discussion on the first Amendment, but the Government saw fit to stop the discussion after a short time, and therefore my hon. Friend may claim the right to a free discussion now.

The observations of the hon. Member appear to be a reflection on the Chair.

I did not intend it. If there were such a reflection I should be the first to withdraw it. My point is that an understanding is not a question of order at all, and inasmuch as there was not a free debate my hon. Friend is entitled to discuss the matter now.

I am sure that you, Sir, will acquit me of making any reflection upon your conduct in the Chair, but I would submit this point for consideration. Suppose an agreement or an understanding is come to between right hon. Gentlemen opposite and ourselves and right hon. Members behind that if a general discussion takes place upon a certain Amendment, then at a further stage in the proceedings the general discussion shall not be resumed, and that ten minutes after an agreement to that effect is come to, the Closure is moved and carried by a majority—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is accepted"]—no matter, who is going to settle it? I think in a case like that the Chair undoubtedly. But then, so far as the understanding is concerned, the Opposition parties to the understanding—I will not put it stronger than this—hope to be a little more than a merely coerced party. I think that the Closure was exceedingly premature on a great many points. I am making no reflection on the Chair. I am putting it for the consideration of the Chairman so that he must not blame us for anything for which we are not responsible. The Chairman was perfectly within his right to accept the Closure, but I hope that he will take the view that he should defend the rights of minorities in this House.

While this interlude has been going on I have just looked up the Clause. [ Laughter. ] That is a matter of merriment to hon. Members opposite. I have done it in order to keep as near as I can to the Rules which they have made, and I find that the wording of the Clause is that there should be levied certain duties. The Question, I believe, is that this Clause shall stand part of the Bill. I was merely trying to advance certain reasons why these duties should not be levied, which seemed to me to be equivalent to reasons why the Clause should not stand part of the Bill. It is very difficult indeed for me to realise—

The point is, that it was agreed that the discussion on the merits of the Clause should be taken on the first Amendment. That having been decided by the Committee, obviously we cannot discuss the general question further on each Amendment.

May I submit that during the four and a-half hours of our discussion little notice has been taken of the consumers' point of view. Almost the whole of the discussion has revolved around the manufacturers' and the importers' and the exporters' point of view, and very little attention has been given to the consumers' point of view. The hon. and gallant Member who was interrupted desires to put the consumers' point of view. Can it be held that there has been a general discussion if the consumers' point of view has not been put?

Of course, I shall do my best to follow the ruling that has been given. The argument that I was trying to advance as closely as possible within the rules of order was this—that the balance, as it is called, of the Budget, which the Chancellor refers to so often, would be as much disturbed by the imposition of a new tax as it would be by taking out the whole or part of one of the proposed taxes in the Budget. I am very glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now reached his place. I will make my suggestion to him. I would remind the Committee of the question that I put yesterday or the day before to the Prime Minister. It was put with this Clause in view. I asked him if there would be any opportunity of discussing the proposed Lace Duty in relation to the other financial proposals of the year. I now want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would not, by adopting the Lace Duty, which is apparently a part of the settled policy of the Government, and withdrawing this particular Silk Duty, be preserving the balance of which he is so proud and which he is so jealous to maintain? It seems to me that there has been no case whatever made out for this tax. I am fortified in that view by the fact that the right hon. Gentleman himself has on each occasion varied his argument. His argument to-day was devoted almost entirely to proving that the tax could be made workable in spite of the many difficulties that surround it and the widespread opposition which it had created. He said that by meeting this, that and the other body of persons, he had been enabled to make the tax more palatable to them and it had now received a certain measure of acceptance. But on the last occasion when this matter was debated it was not the difficulties of the tax about which he argued. On the other hand, those very difficulties he even said were the merits of the tax.

The Committee will remember that on that occasion the right hon. Gentleman entered into an elaborate comparison between the Silk Duties and the Sugar Duty. He also made what I thought was not quite a fair attack on the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) because the right hon. Gentleman had not repealed the Sugar Duty last year. The right hon. Gentleman knows there is all the difference in the world between repealing an existing tax and putting on a new tax. At any rate, with regard to the Sugar Duty, the right hon. Gentleman pointed out the similarity between it and the proposed silk tax. Sugar, like silk, he pointed out, was the raw material of many industries, and the Committee will remember the elaborate list which the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to reel off, with amusement to himself and to us. Incidentally, that list included the manufacture of marmalade. In 1908 the right hon. Gentleman—

I cannot, under the Standing Orders, call the hon. and gallant Member to Order. I can only appeal to him to abide by the general understanding come to by the Committee at the beginning of the Debate, that the general discussion on this question should take place on the first Amendment. The Chair is only carrying out the wishes of the Committee, as expressed at the beginning of the discussion, in seeking to confine the discussion on subsequent Amendments to the points at issue instead of continuing the general Debate.

It was my endeavour and my aim to carry out the intention of the arrangement by bringing to a conclusion the general discussion, and I will certainly, out of deference to your wishes, Sir, conclude my remarks.

I wish to put a point of view which has not, I understand, been put in this Debate so far, but which ought to be within the consideration of the Committee before they vote upon this Clause. That is the point of view of the people who will have to pay these taxes. So far, I understand the discussion has ranged round the effects of the duties on trade and business and employment. All these are extremely important matters, but it is also important that we should consider the precise incidence of the taxation. Obviously there are certain considerations that have to be borne in mind in regard to taxes. We must consider not merely the question of revenue. Surely any Government must also take into consideration the larger question of the health and enjoyment of the people. I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that in choosing artificial silk for this duty, he is going to restrict definitely the consumption of an article which, because it is cheap and has been proved to be in many ways a healthy improvement on wool—at any rate, in the summer—is largely availed of, he is doing something that will militate against the health of the women of the country, who form by far the larger part of the users of this article.

There has been an extraordinary development in the use of artificial silk by women within a comparatively short time. It fills a need which has been felt by that section of the community who can least afford to pay taxes and who ought not to be expected to pay out of their meagre incomes a tax of this kind. The revenue will be paltry compared with the amount which the right hon. Gentleman is giving to the richer classes and a great deal of that revenue will be paid by the working women of the country. It will be paid out of wages that are already far too meagre to meet their needs, and consequently he is doing by this tax a very grave injustice to these women. I cannot, and never have been able to, understand why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be so determined to class this as a luxury tax. I should imagine that while he has been receiving, as he has, I understand, a large number of deputations from business firms, he has not yet heard the point of view of the working women, who, after all, form a very large proportion of the voters whom he has to consider, and wherever one goes in the country one finds the most bitter opposition to this tax on artificial silk. [HON. MEMBERS:"NO!"] If hon. Members say not, I should like them to address some meetings of working women where they are free to express their opinions, and are not dominated by the lady of the manor.

I have come from a meeting only this afternoon in which the very bitterest opposition was expressed to this tax and to the extra cost that it is going to place on the budget of the average family. I do not wish to go into the details in which some hon. Members opposite seem to have revelled, as to the precise articles of clothing upon which this tax will fall, but it is a very definite fact that it is going to fall on the poorest section of the community. The suggestion that this is merely a question of decoration only shows the lamentable ignorance of the gentlemen who have perpetrated this atrocity upon a long-suffering nation. I hope it is not too late for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider whether this Clause should stand part of this extremely ill-balanced Budget, which seems to have its balance altered so frequently, but which has a balance that is all the time operating against the great mass of the working people of this country.

Perhaps I may make an appeal to the Committee to terminate, this discussion as soon as possible. After all, there was a perfectly clear Parliamentary arrangement come to across the Floor of the House that there should be a general discussion on the first Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: " That is off. You moved the Closure!"] Although there were a great number of Amendments on the Paper, and there was the prospect of sitting to a late hour to-morrow morning, there was no attempt to hurry that discussion. The general idea with which the discussion took place was that it would terminate at about half-past seven, and it was not until half-past eight that the Closure was moved. [ Interruption. ] Whether the arrangement was made with the Prime Minister across the Floor of the House or when Mr. Hope was in the Chair and indicated the course he proposed to take, it was clearly understood to be a general discussion, which should not be renewed upon the Question of the Clause standing part.

Now the argument is, I understand, that because the Closure was moved at about twenty minutes to nine all engagements are off. I am sure it was the wish of the Committee as a whole that there should be a Division at that time. All parties could then clearly focus their position before the country at a time which enabled the country to judge, for good or ill, between the merits of this party and that, and the merits of one policy and another. There is no point in a small handful of Members trying to cause physical and personal inconvenience to a very large number of Members, trying, for instance, to postpone a Division for which 500 Members were waiting from half-past eight, which was the time when everyone expected it, till, shall we say, half-past nine, or, alternatively, keeping one large section of the House up until they have missed their trains home. There is no point in that, and it is a degradation. We must recognise that we have got to live together in this House for a number of years, and that, ultimately, such procedure will not be found in accordance with the general British idea of things. The general idea is that there should be no action on the part of the Government to burke an issue on any point about which there is real feeling in the country, but that otherwise we should as far as possible study our own convenience. It was on that ground, and on that ground alone, after making an appeal which was treated with the utmost contempt by a handful of Members in one quarter of the House, who were not supported by the great mass of hon. Members opposite, and feeling, also, that it was entirely in the interests of the general convenience of the House, that I moved the Closure. I say that in no way vitiates the general understanding that this general discussion should not be renewed after a Debate on the Amendment; but, of course, in all these Parliamentary bargains it is for both sides to interpret the bargain, and if, after what has taken place, a portion of the Committee are determined to continue the general discussion in the way that it has been renewed by the hon. Member who has just made a very interesting speech, obviously they have it in their power to do so. Still, in the general interest of the conduct of Parliamentary business, I would venture to appeal to each man to weigh in his own mind whether it is entirely fair or not that we should now bring this general discussion on the Clause to a conclusion.

I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has also changed his opinion with regard to Parliamentary procedure. I quite agree with everything he has said, except his censure upon Members on this side.

If the right hon. Gentleman did not mean it, I accept what he said, but the right hon. Gentleman certainly talked about bargains, and so on and so forth. As far as I am concerned, I have always been opposed to these very long sittings, which go on after the last trains have left. At the same time, I indicated quite clearly to the Prime Minister this afternoon that if he was going to take four Clauses, he was asking for far too much. I was willing to fall in with the suggestion that the Chairman made, but I still hold, and I hold it quite obstinately, that that bargain was violated. If at the moment when I agreed to it it had crossed my mind that the discussion would have been closured, I should at once have put in a reservation. I did not do it because it did not cross my mind. Hon. Members who are in a majority now, but may not always be in a majority, must clearly understand that when a bargain like that is made any closing of the Debate must be by agreement and not by a vote. [An HON. MEMBER: How long would you go on?] I certainly assumed that that Debate would go on to something like 10 o'clock. I am not at all sure that, if it had gone on till 10 o'clock, the end would have come quicker than it is likely to come now. Nobody knows better than the right hon. Gentleman that the Closure, especially on a Finance Bill, is not a method of getting business through quickly. It is a most irritating way of trying to hasten business. The Government have still got in their minds that it is going to take Clause 7. This important question of silk—very important—they are going to take the Excise part of it, the duty on hops, and the Clause that is going to stabilise the duty on sugar. If we agree to the Bill it would be all right, but we are profoundly opposed to the Bill and we must have this matter made clear. I think so far as I am concerned the Debate will have to go on unless an arrangement is come to which can be regarded as a fair arrangement.

There is at least one question which has been submitted to the Chancellor repeatedly with regard to this Clause which has not been answered, and we are entitled to have an answer. I want to ask the Chancellor whether he is prepared to withdraw the Clause, and if he is going to state specifically as to whether he is going to make any alterations in the present arrangement with regard to the rebates to manufacturers of exported goods containing silk. As the Schedule stands, there is an Import Duty of 6s. 8d. per lb., whereas the rebate only provides for 5s. 6d. I want to ask the Chancellor whether he is going to make some alteration in that relationship? As Members for textile constituencies, we know quite well from letters we are receiving that manufacturers engaged in the textile industry are in a state of great uncertainty as to what is going to occur with regard to the proposals regarding rebates.

I have here a letter from one of my constituents, and the writer points out that on a piece of cloth containing 9 lbs. of silk, as the Schedule now stands, he would have to pay £3 5s. duty, and would only receive £2 9s. 6d. in rebate, which means he has to sacrifice 15s. 6d. on this one piece of cloth amounting to 3d. per yard. I need not remind hon. Members opposite engaged in the textile industry that a handicap of 3d. per yard is likely to put many manufacturers out of the market entirely. As things are, if there is a difference of a halfpenny per yard in competition that will often decide very large contracts. I submit that the House and the traders outside are entitled to know what the Government are prepared to do with regard to this question of rebates.

I wish to make a suggestion which I think will be for the general convenience of the Committee. We intended to get Clause 7 before we separated to-day, but if it will be more convenient to the Committee, and if we can have an agreement between the responsible parties in all parts of the House, I would like to make an arrangement for us to get Clause 7 before we separate to-morrow. It would be convenient if we could terminate the discussion at a reasonable hour to-night, and then it should be understood that we should not go beyond two or three o'clock to-morrow evening. If we could get Clause 7 to-morrow it would be more convenient, and I hope that is what we shall be able to agree to. Of course, if hon. Members opposite decide to continue, we are prepared to continue this sitting, whatever the hour may be, but I do suggest that it would be a sensible arrangement, and to the advantage of everybody, to divide our labours on this Measure in the way I have suggested. On this point I await a reply from the responsible leaders of the parties opposite.

I am always open to any reasonable proposals, and am quite willing to consider this one. I would like to say, however, that to suggest two or three o'clock in the morning is no good. If we are going to sit here till three o'clock, we might as well stay until six o'clock, and unless we can come to an arrangement which will enable us to get away by the midnight trains it is no use. It is not decent procedure to ask people to walk five miles after two o'clock in the morning. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to consider the suggestion which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

11.0 P.M.

Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer agree to let us go now and continue the discussion on this Measure after Questions to-morrow? May I point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has been good enough to say that we are masters of the situation, what his suggestion is? His suggestion is that we should be here for the lace Debate, and then many of us would naturally go home at eight o'clock, not being interested in the Electricity Bill, and then have to come back at 11 and stay here from 11 to three. Surely it would be far more reasonable, if he wants Clause 7, to have it as first Order to-morrow. That is my suggestion If he would rather try to get Clause 7 to-night, let him try, and we will see whether he gets it or not.

There was one point in the Chancellor's statement about which I was not quite clear. Supposing that we come to an arrangement on the lines suggested, what is it the Government propose to take after 11 to-morrow night?

We would not go beyond Clause 7 to-morrow night, assuming that the Lace Resolution is dealt with in the afternoon. We would take Clause 7 to-morrow night and no more.

Does that mean that Clause 7 will be taken after 11 o'clock to-morrow night, and that people not interested in the Electricity Bill have got to come back after 11 and fight out Clause 7? May I suggest to the Chancellor that by far the best thing would be to take the Finance Bill as the first Order, and take the Lace Resolution as the second Order.

We may have to go straight on, but we will only do that if it is impracticable to come to any other arrangement. Of course, my interest in the matter is to get to a certain point by a certain date. Provided that the discussion on the Lace Duty Resolution can be abridged so as to terminate to-morrow afternoon—I speak, of course, only on such consultation as is possible in debate—it would no doubt be possible to begin with Clause 7 to-morrow, provided we could get the Lace Duty Resolution. If there is any further discussion on the Lace Duty Resolution, that would be taken after 11 o'clock. If you began with the Lace Resolution after Clause 7 was disposed of to-morrow, it might run on a little later, instead of taking the Lace Resolution as first Order to-morrow, and then having Clause 7 after the Electricity Bill has been disposed of. There is no difference in the procedure from the point of view of the Government. Would it be any convenience to the Opposition? We must get this stage of the Lace Resolution and Clause 7 before we separate tomorrow night. As to any arrangements being made, that might be discussed during the next few minutes.

My suggestion is that, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is so anxious to have Clause 7, let us have Clause 7 as the first Order and let the Lace Resolution take its chance. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] We give no undertaking at all to facilitate the passage of the Lace Resolution, and I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is the Resolution on lace going to be moved in the form that it stands on the Paper?

May I ask for an answer to my specific question, whether there is going to be any alteration in the relationship between the rebate and the duty charged?

No, Sir; it is my belief that the Schedule of Duties and the Schedule of Drawbacks as now fixed are the best we have been able to devise.

May I put this point to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he did not answer? I gave a specific case where partly or wholly discharged silk yarn has to pay a duty of 6s. 8d. The manufacturer makes that into tissue and exports it, and he gets a drawback of 5s. 6d. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain that?

As I have said, this Schedule has been most carefully considered with very competent representatives of the various sections of the trade It is quite true that, if you pick out, on page 18, intention, and from that point of view we definitely encourage the silk coining in in a raw state rather than in the form of yarn. This is the method which at the present time is most usually adopted by the trade, and it will, as a result of these duties, be still more largely adopted in the future, with the result that this secondary process of converting the raw silk into yarn will be increasingly carried out here. That is part of the definite construction of the duties which we have worked out in connection with the trade, and it is entirely in accordance with the views of the trade.

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly answer my question— is it intended that silk lace shall pay a double duty?

No. I explained that last night. Where these duties, so to speak, telescope, the major duty will prevail; they will run concurrently, and not consecutively. That is the principle which I have endeavoured to apply during throughout the whole of these duties. I hope that with this short explanation the discussion may now be brought to a close.

It is very unsatisfactory that the Treasury is run by two separate Cabinet Ministers. I was satisfied last night with the explanation of the Chancellor of the. Exchequer, but, at the same moment that he was giving that explanation, the President of the Board of Trade was putting on the Paper a Resolution relating to silk in the form of lace, which said that there should be charged a duty of 33⅓ per cent. in addition to any Customs duties charged under the Silk Duties. What are we to think of the Government? Here we have the Chancellor of the Exchequer explaining that there is to be no double duty, and the President of the Board of Trade at the same moment putting on the Table a Resolution imposing a double duty. If the right hon. Gentleman will devote a little more attention to that, and a little less to dragooning the House of Commons I think it will be more satisfactory.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 135.

Division No. 140.]

AYES.

[11.10 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Meller, R. J.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Meyer, Sir Frank

Albery, Irving James

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Fermoy, Lord.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Fielden, E. B.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Finburgh, S.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Fleming, D. P.

Murchison, C. K.

Atholl, Duchess of

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Fraser, Captain Ian

Nelson, Sir Frank

Balniel, Lord

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Neville, R. J.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Ganzoni, Sir John

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Gates, Percy

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Nuttall, Ellis

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Gee, Captain R.

Oakley, T.

Bennett, A. J.

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Goff, Sir Park

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Gower, Sir Robert

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Grace, John

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Blundell, F. N.

Grant, J. A.

Penny, Frederick George

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gretton, Colonel John

Philipson, Mabel

Brass, Captain W.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Power, Sir John Cecil

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

Preston, William

Briscoe, Richard George

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Radford, E. A.

Brocklebank C. E. R.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hammersley, S. S.

Remer, J. R.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Hanbury, C.

Remnant, Sir James

Buckingham, Sir H.

Harland, A.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Bullock, Captain M.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Burman, J. B.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Burton Colonel H. W.

Haslam, Henry C.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hawke, John Anthony

Rye, F. G.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Salmon, Major I.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Campbell, E. T.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Cassels, J. D.

Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

Sandon, Lord

Cautley Sir Henry S.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Savery, S. S.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hilton, Cecil

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Chapman, Sir S.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Shepperson, E. W.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Christie, J. A.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Skelton, A. N.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Clayton, G. C.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hume, Sir G. H.

Smithers, Waldron

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Huntingfield, Lord

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Cope, Major William

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Couper, J. B.

Jacob, A. E.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Jephcott, A. R.

Storry Deans, R.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Stott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lamb, J. Q.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Crook, C. W.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Loder, J. de V.

Templeton, W. P.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Looker, Herbert William

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lougher, L.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Tinne, J. A.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

MacIntyre, Ian

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

McLean, Major A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Warrender, Sir Victor

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Macquisten, F. A.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Eden, Captain Anthony

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Malone, Major P. B.

Wells, S. R.

Elliott, Captain Walter E.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Elveden, Viscount

Margesson, Captain D.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Wolmer, Viscount

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Womersley, W. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Colonel Gibbs.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Groves, T.

Riley, Ben

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Grundy, T. W.

Ritson, J.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rose, Frank H.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Scrymgeour, E.

Barnes, A.

Hardle, George D.

Scurr, John

Barr, J.

Harris, Percy A.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Batey, Joseph

Hastings, Sir Patrick

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayday, Arthur

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sitch, Charles H.

Briant, Frank

Hirst, G. H.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromfield, William

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe W

Bromley, J.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Cape, Thomas

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Snell, Harry

Charleton, H. C.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Cluse, W. S.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Stamford, T. W.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Sutton, J. E.

Connolly, M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Taylor, R. A.

Cove, W. G.

Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kelly, W. T.

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

Dalton, Hugh

Kennedy, T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lawson, John James

Thurtle, E.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lee, F.

Tinker, John Joseph

Day, Colonel Harry

Livingstone, A. M.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Dennison, R.

Lowth, T.

Varley, Frank B.

Duckworth, John

Lunn, William

Viant, S. P.

Duncan, C.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Dunnico, H.

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mackinder, W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

MacLaren, Andrew

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

England, Colonel A.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

March, S.

Whiteley, W.

Fenby, T. D.

Morris, R. H.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Forrest, W.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Murnin, H.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Gillett, George M.

Palin, John Henry

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gosling, Harry

Paling, W.

Windsor, Walter

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Wright, W.

Greenall, T.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Mr. Hayes and Mr. Warne.

CLAUSE 5.—(Excise duty on artificial silk.)

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I move this in order to pursue a little further, and, I hope, successfully, the conversation that was opened before the Division. I understand the situation is this, that if Clause 7 be finished to-morrow night, at some time or other, the Government will agree not to press for it to-night. The difficulty that was in my mind when the suggestion was made was this. To-morrow we are to have this lace debate, and then private business comes on at a quarter-past eight. I have been enquiring of those who are responsible for private business for the Opposition side, and am informed that, so far as they can see—this is not quite a hard and definite statement, but we will do our best to make it so—at the very outside that Bill might be finished by 10 o'clock. I am saying 10 o'clock, but I do not think I should be deceiving the Committee if I mentioned an earlier hour. We will say 10 o'clock, and we will do our best to keep to that. Then Clause 7 could be started with a very reasonable prospect of an equally reasonable termination as far as time is concerned. If that would meet with the approval of the Government, I will do my best to carry that out as far as my friends are concerned. I understand that my hon. Friends below the Gangway are generally in agreement on that.

I am not sure that we understand. We are anxious to make any reasonable arrangements, [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I can tell hon. Members opposite that it is a great deal more difficult to defend a Bill in debate than to sit silent under orders. Coming to the negotiations, I understand that the proposal is to go on to-night with Clauses 5 and 6, and defer Clause 7 until to-morrow night.

Would it not be possible, as Clause 5 is a very important Clause, to adjourn now, or in a few minutes, and then we could get home at a reasonable hour to-night? To-morrow night, if we have to sit up late, we could sit on something substantial, Clauses 5, 6 and 7.

I think we are very near coming to a sensible arrangement and one which will enable every party to do its duty in the strenuous examination of the issues involved. I should like to be quite clear. We should not consider that a late hour to-morrow night would be a reasonable hour. It makes no difference to the Government whether we take Clauses 6 and 7 to-morrow night, provided that the debate terminated at a reasonable hour, but everything turns on that. If the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) has any doubts about that, now is his time to say so. We ought not to have any misunderstanding. We want to get Clauses 5, 6 and 7, and the particular stage of the Lace Duty finished and out of the way before we separate to-morrow night. We want to separate to-morrow night at a reasonable hour. Can that be arranged? We are very much in the hands of those opposed to us.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that we shall take Clause 5 for a couple of hours to-night? We cannot dispose of an Excise Duty on artificial silk in half an hour. Is it proposed to go on until two or three o'clock? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, I will say two o'clock. Then, is it proposed to resume the Debate at ten o'clock to-morrow night and go on until after midnight on Clauses 6 and 7? If so, we have no objection. It seems to me more convenient to be a proper all-night sitting tomorrow, and go home earlier to-night.

There is no advantage in keeping the Committee up for a very long time to-night, and yet not long enough to achieve any result, and then to keep the Committee up to-morrow night. Therefore, if we arrive at an arrangement we could dispose of the Excise Duty by about midnight to-night, and then, if convenient, we could get the Lace Duty stage to-morrow afternoon, followed by a brief interlude on the Electricity Bill up to ten o'clock, when we could begin Clauses 6 and 7, which we could terminate at what would be called a reasonable hour, before one or two o'clock.

While we are prepared to meet the convenience of hon. Members as far as possible, we could not undertake to give the Excise Duty on silk before midnight. The thing is impossible. Therefore we shall be compelled to-night, if you are taking Clause 5, to sit until 1 o'clock, and then to-morrow night, if the Electricity Bill does not finish until 11 o'clock, we are quite prepared to sit later than 1 o'clock. [HON. MEMBERS: " Get on with it!"] I am trying to meet the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot control his own followers, I cannot help it. It seems to us better to get away to-night and then if necessary have a long night to-morrow night. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If the Committee prefers to sit until 1 or 2 o'clock to-night and do the same to-morrow night we are perfectly agreeable.

I am afraid that that would not be satisfactory. We must get the Silk Duties to-night. If it is for the convenience of the Committee that we should begin on Clauses 6 and 7 to-morrow at 10 o'clock and dispose of them before 1 o'clock, in that event we are ready to come to an agreement, and if we can get the Silk Duties to-night at a reasonable hour, half-past twelve or so, I have no objection. That I believe to be much the best arrangement. Of course, if any group or party in the Committee is not able to accept the proposal it is better to go ahead and thresh the matter out fully. I hope now that we may have a definite answer as to whether the proposal is acceptable.

I want to make it clear that I shall be no party to a bargain that involves our sitting later than 1 o'clock for two nights running, and rather than have that, we had better go on.

There can be no consent if Clause 5, which puts the Excise Duty on artificial silk, is to be disposed of before a quarter-past twelve o'clock.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 26, to leave out the words " one shilling "and to insert instead thereof the word "threepence."

This is an Amendment dealing with a very debatable point. We cannot get away from one great central principle which is that a tax of any kind must be a hindrance to the trade concerned. It is therefore all the more amazing to find the Chancellor at a time of great pressure, when the gravest concern is being caused not only in the busiest world, but among those who have to consider the problem of unemployment, selecting this new industry for an experiment in regard to taxation. I do not know whether that is due to the fact that the Chancellor imagined that artificial silk was in some sort a luxury and only discovered later on—as possibly other Members of the House did—that artificial silk was far from being a luxury comparable in any way to silk itself. Whether that be the reason or not, it seems to me most unfortunate that at this time the Government should be making such a proposition. The industry is a new one. It was being developed in this country in about 27 factories and the amount of money which the Chancellor expects to obtain by this Excise duty is not large in itself.

I have already ventured to suggest certain principles which ought to be carefully considered in proposing any new method of raising money. One of these is the effect which the tax is going to have on the poorer section of the population, and the second is its effect in the business world. I think from what we have heard it is quite evident that this proposal is going to throw an extra burden upon many of the poorer women who use this commodity. The Chancellor seems to anticipate that, on account of the success of the industry up to the present, it will go ahead in spite of the tax. But you cannot possibly get away from the evil effects of the tax and even if the industry does manage to go ahead, its success will not be as great as it would otherwise have been. Hon. Members have probably received a communication containing a criticism from "The Investors' Guardian" dealing with these silk duties in which two important principles are brought out representing the fundamental objection to the imposition of this duty. One extract is this:

The right hon. Gentleman said he must have revenue and that he proposed to tax a luxury to obtain it. Silk to a certain extent might be designated as a luxury, though that is very doubtful when you consider some of the uses to which it is put, but when you come to artificial silk, it is quite impossible to hold or to support the claim that you are dealing with a luxury. Therefore, the proposal must be a tax purely to raise revenue, and if you are going to have that, why should you put it on artificial silk more than on any other commodity? Granting that the money has to be raised, why should the right hon. Gentleman have disturbed industry at this time, especially when, at the same time, he was removing taxes in other directions? You have had the large removal of Super-tax. I know the Chancellor claims that that is in the nature of an adjustment, and that the revision of the Death Duties is quite a sufficient answer for the relief given to the Super-tax payers, but it is an argument that does not impress some of us, although it seems to be satisfactory to himself. Setting aside the Super-tax, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has relieved the Income Tax payers to a considerable extent. It would have been much more beneficial to industry if the Income Tax had been left alone and the right hon. Gentleman had not begun to interfere with industry. I know that the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members opposite believe that by relieving the Income Tax payers, some great benefit will be conferred on trade.

To my mind, that is a plea which is not justified by the actual experience of those connected with trade. The relief of Income Tax on trade is certainly a benefit so far as it concerns money that is placed to reserve; but when you pass from that and think of the many people whom we are relieving of Income Tax by drawing money out of the pockets of the very poorest by this tax upon artificial silk, then, looking at the composition of the Budget from the standpoint I have laid down, it seems to me this tax is against the best interests of the country. It errs first of all in imposing a burden on the very poorest, and in the second place in adding another burden to industry, which at the present time we ought to have avoided doing so far as possible.

The hon. Member has moved an Amendment which has largely been answered by the Debate which took place on the last Clause. We there made clear our reasons for not being able to accept a Customs Duty on real silk unless we had a Customs and Excise Duty on artificial silk. This particular Amendment to reduce the Excise Duty from 1s. to 3d. does not stand alone, but is the first of a long series of Amendments on this Clause and on the Schedule which recasts the whole scale of duties on artificial silk and real silk. There is no apparent principle in the scale embodied in this series of Amendments, except that of reducing the duties to insignificant proportions, and clearly we cannot accept a scale of that kind. It would defeat the whole object of the duties, reducing the revenue from them from £3,500,000 to £600,000 in the current year and from £6,100,000 to £1,000,000 on a full year. Our scales of duty have been very carefully adjusted so as to give a small turn to the home producer. The new scale put down by hon. Members opposite would give the advantage not to the home producer but to the foreigner, by offering a greater profit from the import of silk in an advanced state than in the early stages of manufacture. It would clearly be out of order for me to discuss this new scale, which will largely arise on the schedule, but I could easily show that the proposal would transfer the preference from the home producer to the foreigner. It would cut down the yield of the tax to the minimum and raise to the maximum the disadvantage to our own producers, and I ask the House to reject the Amendment and retain the scale of duties we have drawn up.

I find myself in a position of very great difficulty. My heart tells me to support this Amendment. At the same time it is an attempt to reduce a tax on the raw material of industry, but I am against the whole thing. On the other hand, this Amendment increases the protection unless there is a corresponding reduction in the Customs, which up to the present we have not succeeded in getting. We have not had any concessions on this point and the Customs Duty remains the same. We are increasing the protective duty and this will make it all the more difficult to take it off again when the present Government falls from power, which we all hope will be very soon. You are creating a vested interest by this fact just as the bootleggers in America have created a vested interest in prohibition. If you reduce still further the Excise Duty without a corresponding reduction of the Customs Duty, you get a powerful interest in keeping the whole wretched system in being. If this Amendment is pressed to a Division, I propose to abstain from voting, and I hope in view of what I have said this Amendment will not be pressed.

In supporting this Amendment, I do not wish to reiterate the arguments about manufacturers and exporters and so forth, but I want to register my protest against a further tax being imposed on the working people and their wives and families. The Budget has been referred to as ill-balanced, I must protest against a Budget which gives relief to wealthy taxpayers and Super-tax payers to the tune of £10,000,000 per annum and a very great deal of relief to the ordinary Income Tax payers, of which I happen to be one, and which I know means nothing to many people having such relief unless they notice the alteration of the figures in their banking account. But whilst relieving from taxation well-to-do people who have the greater advantage of all the amenities of welfare in this country and should pay their share, the Financial Secretary, who has just defended this Excise Duty, has claimed that to reduce it in accordance with the Amendment which I am now supporting would not give the revenue which is expected. My protest is against reducing the revenue by a free gift to very well-to-do people, and placing taxes on things which are almost the only little luxury within the reach of many of the women that I am so proud to represent. It is for that reason that I am supporting this Amendment, so that we may draw the attention of the people in the country who really have souls so that they may realise that this is, as has already been indicated, the wealthy man's Budget, intended to save money for those who already have plenty, and to add taxes to the working people, who can ill afford to pay for what little finery they can obtain from this artificial silk. I do not wish to further emphasise it other than that it is my duty as a representative of women who use and wear this artificial silk, and of the working people, to protest against this method of balancing the finances of the country.

12 M.

As to the main objections to the several Amendments that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made to this scheme our view is that whatever was intended in the first instance was done under the pressure of representatives who are Protectionists are heart. The tendency of the Bill should be rather to raise the Excise more in harmony with the Customs. I believe that could be done. My hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) comes along and proposes to reduce the Excise. I would like to ask him whether he intends the effect of his Amendment to be to increase the protective effect of the system? Free Traders do not want to support any Amendment which is going to do that. In so far as it is Protective it is taking money from the same people. If my hon. Friend would tell us that he was intending later to move an Amendment on the Schedule to reduce the Customs duty as well, then we may readjust the balance between the Customs and the Excise, and the net result of the two Amendments would be that the balance would remain and the general level of the duty would be reduced. On the whole, I disagree with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) if he intends to persist in his intention of not supporting the Amendment. I shall support the Amendment if the hon. Gentleman goes to a Division, not because I wish to see the disparity between the Customs and Excise increased, but with a view later on to reduce the Customs Duty.

I voted against the Government when they first proposed this Excise Duty, and I did so because I do not think that the Excise Duty gave a sufficient advantage to the producer in this country. Now that the Chancellor has reduced the Excise Duty, I consider that the margin is sufficient to give more employment in this country, and I think that, having regard to the unemployment figures, the whole of this question should be considered solely upon the question of employment. So far as we give a certain advantage to the producer in this country, that is all we require. For that reason I do not consider that the Amendment is necessary, because the advantage that would be given if this Amendment were carried would be altogether in excess of what is required to give the advantage necessary for increasing employment in this country. It would merely give a further advantage to the industry and to the interests involved. For that reason I desire to say why it was that I voted against the Government in the first case, and in so far as this Amendment is concerned, I propose to support them and vote against it. If we would give up this merely petty obstruction so far as the Budget is concerned, and consider everything from the point of view of how we might give more employment, we should do a much greater service to the country

than by putting up various petty suggestions such as have been put up by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), merely for the purpose of obstruction. I am going to support the Government in this case, although I voted against the original Excise Duty.

Question put, "That the words ' one shilling ' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: —Ayes, 228; Noes, 88.

Division No. 141.]

AYES.

[12.1 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Albery, Irving James

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Eden, Captain Anthony

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

MacIntyre, Ian

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

McLean, Major A.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Balniel, Lord

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macquisten, F. A.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Fermoy, Lord

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Bennett, A. J.

Fielden, E. B.

Margesson, Captain D.

Blundell, F. N.

Finburgh, S.

Meller, R. J.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fleming, D. P.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Fraser, Captain Ian

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Brass, Captain W.

Gates, Percy

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Gault, Lieut. Col. Andrew Hamilton

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Briscoe, Richard George

Gee, Captain R.

Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

Brittain, sir Harry

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Goff, Sir Park

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Gower, Sir Robert

Nelson, Sir Frank

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Grace, John

Neville, R. J.

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'ld., Hexham)

Grant, J. A.

Newman, Sir R. H.S. D. L. (Exeter)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Bullock, Captain M.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Nuttall, Ellis

Burman, J. B.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Oakley, T.

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Penny, Frederick George

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Campbell, E. T.

Hammersley, S. S.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Cassels, J. D.

Hanbury, C.

Philipson, Mabel

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Preston, William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Hawke, John Anthony

Price, Major C. W. M.

Chapman, Sir S.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Radford, E. A.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Christie, J. A.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Remer, J. R.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Remnant, Sir James

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Clayton, G. C.

Hilton, Cecil

Rice, Sir Frederick

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Rye, F G.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun)

Salmon, Major I.

Cope, Major William

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Couper, J. B.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Sandon, Lord

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hume, Sir G. H.

Savery, S. S.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Huntingfield, Lord

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Crook, C. W.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Jacob, A. E.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Jephcott, A. R.

Shepperson, E. W.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kidd, J. (Linlilthgow)

Skelton, A. N.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Lamb, J. Q.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Loder, J. de V.

Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Looker, Herbert William

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Lougher, L.

Smithers, Waldron

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Tinne, J. A.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Wolmer, Viscount

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Warrender, Sir Victor

Womersley, W. J.

Storry Deans, R.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Wells, S. R.

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Templeton, W. P.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry Barnston.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Guest, J. (York, Hermsworth)

Potts, John S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Riley, Ben

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Ritson, J.

Barnes, A.

Hardie, George D.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Barr, J.

Hayday, Arthur

Scurr, John

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayes, John Henry

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromley, J.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Cape, Thomas

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Stamford, T. W.

Cluse, W. S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sutton, J. E.

Connolly, M.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Taylor, R. A.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Thurtle, E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lawson, John James

Tinker, John Joseph

Duckworth, John

Lee, F.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Duncan, C.

Livingstone, A. M.

Varley, Frank B.

Dunnico, H.

Lunn, William

Viant, S. P.

England, Colonel A.

Mackinder, W.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

MacLaren, Andrew

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Fenby, T. D.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Forrest, W.

March, S.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Murnin, H.

Windsor, Walter

Gillett, George M.

Palin, John Henry

Greenall, T.

Paling, W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Warne.

Groves, T.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Grundy, T. W.

Ponsonby, Arthur

I beg to move, in page 3, line 32, at the end, to insert the words some of the best known untaxed fabrics of to-day. I made these observations in Committee of Ways and Means. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not answer them at all. He simply waived them aside and when I put a question at the table he gave me the answer, "You must await the Second Reading of the Finance Bill." I am quite prepared to observe the ordinary rules of the House and so, dutifully, I and others who are interested in the matter and think there is a, point of real substance in it waited for the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. We never got any answer on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. There was not an observation on the subject. We were not allowed to ask a question. So the Chancellor got over that hedge. First of all, having brought in this proposal that a tax of so much should be levied on what might just as well have been called X, Y or Z, and having stated that he would tell us what was the mean- ing of X on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, he got over that difficulty in the way familiar to him which has been the subject of constant, close study, and by such means as are open to Ministers of bringing a Debate to an end having finished that, he now comes down to the Committee stage. Will it be believed that there is not a word that can be discovered in the Bill telling us what is meant by artificial silk? I do not profess to have the qualifications necessary, even if anyone has, for giving a scientific definition of artificial silk.

The first course I proposed was to put an Amendment into the Bill, which actually appeared on the Paper, saying artificial silk "as hereinafter defined." That, of course, is an incomplete Amendment. The intention of putting in those words was, we thought, to compel the Government, who have at their disposal expert assistants—chemists, customs experts and so forth—to produce a precise definition. It was pointed out by you, Sir, that an incomplete Amendment would run the risk of not being selected under your power as Chairman, so we looked about to see if we could find an Amendment. There are a good many Members who are engaged in the textile trade and who have expressed highly expert and well-experienced views upon this subject in the course of our debates, and when I first raised the question as to what artificial silk really meant, the hon. Member for Stockport, among others, rose and proffered a definition. Because I had the highest confidence in his technical abilities, and also because I had no other course of information, I have adopted from the OFFICIAL REPORT the terms in which he himself defined artificial silk. It seems to me a very respectable and ornate chemical formula. I must say in advance that I am not in the least wedded to its terms, and the thing that would please me most would be for the Chancellor himself to say: "I regret I cannot accept your words, but I am pleased to tell you that I have a formula of my own and on the Report stage I shall move to insert it." If he will say that, I shall be quite satisfied, and I am quite willing that my definition shall be abandoned. Supposing the Chancellor of the Exchequer fails to give a definition, and one of the parties takes him to the Law Courts and says, "This particular article is not subject to the duty which is imposed by the Finance Act, 1925." The Chancellor of the Exchequer replies: "I say it is artificial silk," and the weight that his lightest word carries in this House is depreciated in the Law Courts. The Judges-judge by the written word of the law, and they would say: "Is this artificial silk?" I have asked eminent legal gentlemen of my acquaintance " What would you do if you were on the Bench and somebody came along on behalf of the Government and said: ' This is artificial silk'"? The reply was, "I should have an expert and I should ask him for his definition of artificial silk. The expert would say, artificial silk is so and so. He would then define artificial silk." That is the way the Court would determine the case. If there is a definition on which ultimately a decision must rest, why not have it in the Act of Parliament? There cannot be any objection to it. Either the right hon. Gentleman's officials know what is meant by artificial silk or they do not If they do not, then it is too much to ask the House of Commons to give them a roving authority to tax anything that appears to be a shining tissue such as they regard artificial silk to be. If, on the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman has a precise idea of what he wants to tax, then we have a right and the trade has a right to ask that it should be defined by Act of Parliament. That is not a mere debating point. It is a point of substance. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members opposite are amused. They have not entered into debate. They do not say anything that can be answered.

I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to pay attention to the words of his Amendment.

I would draw attention to the fact that hon. Members who are conducting a criticism of the Bill under circumstances of considerable difficulty are subjected continually to unintelligent interruptions.

If the hon. and gallant Member's rights are violated by improper interruptions, I will protect him.

I should be very grateful. Let me point out some of the dangers. Suppose the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "Here is the product of Courtaulds or Celanese. This is what I mean by artificial silk, and I am going to stick to that. That means that any of the several groups who are working to produce a rival fabric will be able, if you succeed, to have the total advantage of the new process, and freedom from taxation." On the other hand, he may say: "I will keep it so general that it will cover any new invention that is brought into the market."

Furthermore, he should say what protection for example mercerised cotton has got against these duties. I know that the right hon. Gentleman will say—he has said it before—" I am not going to tax mercerised cotton, I have not the least intention of taxing mercerised cotton," but it is not the right hon. Gentleman who taxes. It is this Bill. His officials will come along and take hold of a piece of tissue, and say: "silk," and propose to tax it, and the answer of the importer will be "cotton," and the judge will say: "There is nothing in the Bill that exempts this tissue from liability to duty," because mercerised cotton very often resembles silk very closely. I have been told by experts in the trade that they have the greatest difficulty in distinguishing the finer sorts of mercerised cotton and artificial silk, and if they are confused how much more will be confused the officials of the Customs. I hope that I have put the point clearly and made clear that it is a point of substance which calls for a specific answer. Does the right hon. Gentleman know what he means and if so, is he prepared to put it in terms into the Finance Act of this year?

We have no intention of inserting a definition. With regard to the commodities which are in a state of flux in development, on the edge, fringe or borderland, commodities which might conceivably take form in a process of invention as a commodity on which a duty would be leviable there is always a certain amount of interrogation which is necessary. Of course, we all very well know the difficulty of defining things. There is the difficulty of defining an elephant. Everyone would recognise an elephant, but it is another matter to define one. The great Napoleon said a Constitution should be short and obscure, and the great Disraeli said that sensible men are all of the same religion. When pressed to define the religion he advised sensible men never to tell. It was in no Machiavellian spirit that the Government has decided not to insert a definition, of artificial silk in this measure. We follow practice and scientific and expert advice. The goods which will be taxed as artificial silk will be the goods which in the ordinary process of commerce are known as artificial silk. If it should raise disputes with the inventor or manufacturer, these can only be settled in the courts. Questions continually arise and have even arisen in the case of sugar and saccharine and commodities connected therewith which had to be settled in court. The Government are advised that it would be extremely difficult to draw a satisfactory scientific definition of artificial silk. I reject, for reasons that I will not attempt to go into, this task of defining what may be artificial silk. If you embody a hard and fast definition in your Bill, each year there will be continual need to amend the law relating to the Silk Duty in order to keep up with every new variety. We contemplate that this tax shall not be a temporary tax, and it will certainly be very inconvenient for us to recast this definition each year.

It is not at all an unreasonable position to take up. It is, in fact, the invariable practice of the whole civilised world. There is no country that does not tax silk and artificial silk, either when produced indigenously or imported from overseas, and every country has had to face this problem of a definition and every country has refused to attempt to give a definition. The United States taxes artificial silk under the heading of artificial silk and adds:— simpliciter. There is no attempt to define at all. It will not be open to traders to evade the taxation by calling the article which in substance is artificial silk, and in fact is artificial silk by another name such as "genuine woollens" or some such name. We know what the name means and we know what the article embodies and represents, and that covers the whole substance of the proposition. Anything that lies on each side of the question must necessarily be left to be dealt with in the courts. In this respect we are not only following expert advice but precedent, but we are only adopting the universal practice of every important country in the world at the present time. We must therefore definitely and finally decline to insert a definition.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer treats this matter as is usual with him—in a vein of jocularity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] He makes references to elephants—

Yes, I can. Napoleon and Disraeli wore also referred to. A few days ago, in the course of a debate on this matter, the right hon. Gentleman referred to what had been done by Gladstone. I will quote another experience of Mr. Gladstone. It is clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer contemplates a number of cases in the courts of law where it will be decided what is or what is not artificial silk. In 1860 the late Mr. Gladstone—this is a very apt reference—was not imposing a tax hut taking off a tax on paper, and one of the principal reasons was that it was almost impossible to define what was paper and what was not paper. He said the tax had become almost impossible to levy and had become almost untenable in law because of the impossibility of defining what was or was not paper. That is the very difficulty the right hon. Gentleman contemplates with equanimity, which he not only contemplates but excuses on the ground that this practice which he proposes is followed in foreign countries. It is not a reason at all. As for his concluding statement that it will be easy to see at any moment what is or what is not artificial silk, that I entirely deny, for it will be as difficult as deciding at any moment who is or who is not a Free Trader.

I intervene at this point in the Debate because we have a standing example before the House in the famous Finance Act of 1909–1910, when laxity in the matter of defining clearly the basis on which the taxes were to be imposed in that Budget led to various court actions and those great taxes brought in by the famous Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day when he swept the country with marvellous enthusiasm and had the nation singing the famous " Land Song."

:: I was going to say the people were enthusiastic about the Budget in that day more than we are about the silk song to-day, and despite the agitation which took place we found actions in the courts. I am very anxious that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer should meet with some success after the marvellous and most interesting way in which he has piloted his Budget so far. It is in order that we may know exactly what is the nature of the commodity that is to be taxed that I am supporting the present Amendment. He says we know in substance what artificial silk is. I do not for a moment believe that there is any man breathing who can lay down any close-cut definition and I am sure the Chancellor feels that himself. We want to find out what artificial silk is, not from any Machiavellian feeling in the matter, but I should think it is really a matter of nervousness. I consider this part of the debate is the most important part of the whole debate on the Finance Bill that has taken place so far. If you cannot clearly define what the commodity is that you propose to tax, you may depend upon it your taxes are going to be a failure. Even the Chancellor himself has admitted that, when the tax is imposed, contention will arise and that, of course, we will have succeeding Court cases.

I am sure, if you, Sir, will not rule me out of Order, I may say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that I for one would not dare to lecture him on economics. I have known his speeches almost as well as he remembers them himself, and I know he is a marvellous student of what we call fundamental radical economics. He knows, as well as I know, that the moment you try to tax commodities of this kind you are bound to have expensive litigation following fast on its heels. It is in order to obviate that and in order that we may get clear of constantly fighting in the Courts and constantly meeting with failures in attempts to collect this tax, that I appeal to the Chancellor to be as courageous now as he has been all through the Debates on these taxes and to attempt to give a definition. He was gracious enough this evening to show me some definitions which have held sway in other countries, but I submit that the definitions which the Chancellor himself read to the Committee to-night would not be entertained for five minutes in any of our British Law Courts. If he could put into some form what he means by artificial silk, and if he could satisfy the Committee, it would be some compensation to them for all the hours we have spent in debating the tax on artificial silk to know that we were leaving this building clearly understanding what it is we are going to tax when the Budget is passed. If not, I predict expensive litigation and evasions, and even many of his hon. Friends behind him whom he knows are engaged in this industry will just be as industrious to find some marvellous substitute which they will call something else than artificial silk and which would give trouble in the Courts later on. For these reasons I support the Amendment.

I wish to reinforce the appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to insert a definition in this Clause, because I notice that in Sub-section (4) certain penalties are enacted upon persons who contravene Clause 5. A penalty of £50 is to be inflicted upon a person who contravenes the Section, intentionally or unintentionally as I understand it. The Chancellor himself has referred to the border-line cases to be decided by the Courts, but what is to happen to the man who innocently contravenes this Clause of the Bill? It is all very well for the Chancellor to say it is very difficult to give a definition which will embody the whole of the artificial silks. That reminds me of the definition of "reasonable" in a dictionary, which says

"It is unreasonable to give a definition of 'reasonable.'"

It is for this reason that the citizen and the trader should have a clear idea of what his liabilities of taxation are going to be, and what offences, if any, he is going to commit. For that reason I urge the Chancellor to reconsider this, and say whether any inventions that may be made in after years are to come in.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 207.

Division No. 142.]

AYES.

[12.48 a.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Grundy, T. W.

Potts, John S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Scurr, John

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Barr, J.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Harris, Percy A.

Sitch, Charles H.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayday, Arthur

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Broad, F. A.

Hayes, John Henry

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cape, Thomas

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sutton, J. E.

Charleton, H. C.

Hirst, G. H.

Taylor, R. A.

Connolly, M.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Thurtle, E.

Dalton, Hugh

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Tinker, John Joseph

Day, Colonel Harry

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Duckworth, John

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Varley, Frank B.

Duncan, C.

Kelly, W. T.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Dunnico, H.

Lawson, John James

Warne, G. H.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lee, F.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Livingstone, A. M.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Fenby, T. D.

Lunn, William

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Forrest, W.

Mackinder, W.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

MacLaren, Andrew

Windsor, Walter

Gibbins, Joseph

Morris, R. H.

Gillett, George M.

Palin, John Henry

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Sir Godfrey Collins and Sir Robert Hutchison.

Groves, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Albery, Irving James

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Balniel, Lord

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Bennett, A. J.

Grant, J. A.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Preston, William

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gretton, Colonel John

Radford, E. A.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Briscoe, Richard George

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Remer, J. R.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Remnant, Sir James

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hanbury, C.

Rye, F. G.

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Salmon, Major I.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Burman, J. B.

Hawke, John Anthony

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Sandon, Lord

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Savery, S. S.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hilton, Cecil

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Campbell, E. T.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Shepperson, E. W.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Chapman, Sir S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Skelton, A. N.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Christie, J. A.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Huntingfield, Lord

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Smithers, Waldron

Clayton, G. C.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H,

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jacob, A. E.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Jephcott, A. R.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Couper, J. B.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Lamb, J. Q.

Storry Deans, R.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Loder, J. de V.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Looker, Herbert William

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Crook, C. W.

Lougher, L.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Templeton, W. P.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Dalkeith, Earl of

MacIntyre, Ian

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

McLean, Major A.

Tinne, J. A.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Macmillan Captain H.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Macquisten, F. A.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Mac Robert, Alexander M.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Margesson, Captain D.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Meller, R. J.

Wells, S. R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Meyer, Sir Frank

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Elliott, Captain Walter E.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

England, Colonel A.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Windsor-Clive, Lieut. Colonel George

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fermoy, Lord

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Finburgh, S.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wolmer, Viscount

Fleming, D. P.

Nuttall, Ellis

Womersley, W. J.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Oakley, T.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Gates, Percy

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Gee, Captain R.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Penny, Frederick George

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Goff, Sir Park

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Captain Douglas Hacking and Major Cope.

Gower, Sir Robert

Philipson, Mabel

Grace, John

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

There are one or two points about the Excise Duty to which I wish to call attention, and I rise to put these points in all brevity to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is the only opportunity we are going to have to examine this new Excise Duty. I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has framed any estimate of the cost of the Excise officers of the method by which the new Excise control is going to be exercised. That is the first point. It must be quite obvious that with 27 existing factories, and a certain number of others that may grow up, there must be an increase of staff. Somebody has to cause instructions to be drawn up as to the proper supervision of these factories. All this must be thought out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He told us a little earlier in the day that there would be no additional expense at all. I am told that he has already acquired a building in Manchester—is that true?—for the purpose of the Excise control of artificial silk in that district. It is all very well for the Committee in its natural weariness to desire to let the matter go through without Debate, but everybody outside who has to bear the burden of this tax would like to know what his arrangements are, and what his expenses are, in connection with the imposition of this Excise.

With regard to the question which the right hon. Gentleman has asked, I have said that the Customs officials have assured me that they do not contemplate that the administration of this Bill or the drawbacks will involve any appreciable increase of the staff or any appreciable addition to the expense. It is quite true that in Manchester, where there is a great deal of this business, premises have been acquired in close proximity to the merchants who are engaged in this trade in order that there may not be any long journeys imposed upon important individuals and delays caused when transacting business in which time is of the essence.

1.0 A.M.

Broadly speaking, it is not expected that the administration of this Bill will lead to a multiplaction of officials, or expense upon warehouses and buildings, and anything of that kind. The whole of this business will be worked just like sugar is worked. A percentage test is taken. A certain percentage of the lines of goods are tested, and where the parties are known, trusted, and respected, one knows that business goes through with the minimum of procedure and difficulty. Of course, in every great trade you have occasional black sheep, but in all these matters the trade itself acts as its own police. Where 99 out of every 100 are doing what is perfectly right and fair, and some individual is gaining an advantage by fraud, the Customs are frequently recipients of information and they make their visits much

more frequent. That is how we do manage to collect a large amount of revenue with little addition of staff and pay large amounts of drawback to those who are entitled to them in spite of the variants which arise. Broadly speaking, I am advised there will be no sensible extension, or appreciable expense, through multiplication of the staff involved.

We have had a very important statement which affects an important industry having many ramifications. We have the statement that an office is to be acquired in Manchester, one of the important centres of the textile trade which is well organised, very vocal and very well able to make itself felt. But that is not the only centre of the textile trade, and are we to understand that, where it is necessary, cloth will have to be sent from London to Manchester; from London which has 7,000,000 people with large manufacturers who are users of artificial silk? Are they to be ignored?

One thing has not been cleared up. That is who is to be the agency through which drawbacks are to be claimed? Is it the manufacturer of textiles or the exporter?

The exporter does not always buy this article in its raw state. He does not always buy this article made up into tissues. He buys it converted into many forms—coats, jumpers and a hundred and one articles. How is he to trace where the duty was originally paid? It will be poor satisfaction to the manufacturer, who is competing in the world market, to know that the drawback will be paid to some shipper. It seems to me that the machinery will have to be more elaborate than the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipates. Before he finishes he will find himself landed with a horde of officials and many expensive premises.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 202; Noes, 67.

Division No. 143.]

AYES.

[1.7 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Albery, Irving James

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Balniel, Lord

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Grant, J. A.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Preston, William

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Radford, E. A.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Remer, J. R.

Briscoe, Richard George

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Remnant, Sir James

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hanbury, C.

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Rye, F. G.

Brown, Maj. D. C.(N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hawke, John Anthony

Salmon, Major I.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Burman, J. B.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hilton, Cecil

Sandon, Lord

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Holland, Sir Arthur

Savery, S. S.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Holt, Captain H. P.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Campbell, E. T.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Shepperson, E. W.

Chapman, Sir S

Hume, Sir G. H.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Huntingfield, Lord

Skelton, A. N.

Christie, J. A.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Jacob, A. E.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Clayton, G. C.

Jephcott, A. R.

Smithers, Waldron

Cobb Sir Cyril

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Cooper, A. Duff

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Cope, Major William

Lamb, J. Q.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Couper, J. B.

Loder, J. de V.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Looker, Herbert William

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Lougher, L.

Storry Deans, R.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Stuart, Crichton- Lord C.

Crook, C. W.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Crookshank, Col C. de W. (Berwick)

MacIntyre, Ian

Templeton, W. P.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

McLean, Major A.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Macmillan, Captain H.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Macquisten, F. A.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Mac Robert, Alexander M.

Tinne, J. A.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Margesson, Captain D.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Meller, R. J.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Meyer, Sir Frank.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Wells, S. R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Nelson, Sir Frank

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fermoy, Lord

Nuttall, Ellis

Wise, Sir Fredric

Finburgh, S.

Oakley, T.

Wolmer, Viscount

Fleming, D. P.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Womersley, W. J.

Fraser, Captain Ian

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Gates, Percy

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Penny, Frederick George

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gee, Captain R.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Goff, Sir Park

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Gower, Sir Robert

Philipson, Mabel

Colonel Gibbs and Major Kennedy.

Grace, John

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Duncan, C.

Harris, Percy A.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Hayday, Arthur

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

England, Colonel A.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Ammon, Charles George

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Hirst, G. H.

Barr, J.

Fenby, T. D.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Forrest, W.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Broad, F. A.

Gibbins, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Cape, Thomas

Gillett, George M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Charleton, H. C.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Kelly, W. T.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Gretton, Colonel John

Lawson, John James

Crawfurd, H. E.

Grundy, T. W.

Lee, F.

Dalton, Hugh

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N)

Livingstone, A. M.

Day, Colonel Harry

Hall. F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Lunn, William

Duckworth, John

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Mackinder, W.

MacLaren, Andrew

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Morris, R. H.

Sutton, J. E.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Paling, W.

Taylor, R. A.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Potts, John S.

Thurtle, E.

Windsor, Walter

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Tinker, John Joseph

Scurr, John

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Varley, Frank B.

Mr. Warne and Mr. Hayes.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

CLAUSE 6.—(Customs duty on imported hops, and consequential modifications of beer duties and drawbacks.)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 19, to leave out the words "four years," and to insert instead thereof the words "one year."

I do not propose to imitate the example set in some quarters of the Committee, and to allow the Debate on these exceedingly important duties to degenerate into mere obstruction. At the same time there are one or two things which are important, and should be emphasised. I think this new duty is a further step towards the "scientific tariff" which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when defending his progeny, referred to and, speaking with the shameless cynicism of an apostate, described as "a little monster, nakedly protective," thus violating the pledges of himself and his Leader at the last election. If I may refer to the features of this new duty, I wish to inquire of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what effect he thinks this duty is going to have on the price of beer? I am a little surprised that a Party with the antecedents of the Conservative Party and the support of a certain character which they habitually enjoy, should introduce a proposal which will certainly not tend to reduce the price of beer. My belief is that the brewers in this country at the present moment form a sufficiently tight combination among themselves to be able to raise the price of beer considerably by concerted action. If we are to judge from other examples of monopolists, I can imagine the brewers will announce that the imposition of this new heavy burden on the raw material of their industry will compel them to increase the price of beer. I am sure this will have the effect of increasing the prevailing unrest. Now if it had been necessary to increase the revenue from alcoholic liquors in order to provide a better balance in this remarkable Budget, it would have been much wiser to have imposed an additional tax on whiskey rather than upon beer, for various reasons which it might not perhaps foe in order to pursue. I think it is exceedingly undesirable to do anything which is likely to tend to increase the price of beer at the present moment. I hope the Financial Secretary will also consider the possible effect of this duty on the quality of beer.

I notice that no tax is imposed on hop substitutes. I am told that it is frequently the practice of brewers to introduce deleterious substances as a substitution for hops. It appears to me that the tax upon hops unaccompanied by a tax upon possible substitutes is bound to encourage the use of these substitutes and thereby lower the quality of beer and make it a more unwholesome, or, according to the attitude adopted, a less wholesome beverage than it now is. I think that also would be a serious thing.

Just one word upon the effects of this duty upon unemployment. The number of persons employed directly in hop growing is very small, only 3,000 or 4,000, I see it is estimated—I am not speaking of the migratory hop pickers, but those regularly employed that you have only one person employed for every five or six acres under hops, so that it cannot be contended that this duty will do much to increase employment on the land. The Government can adopt more effective measures than this miserable duty. At the present moment there is, I believe, or there has been during the past few years and is just coming to an end, a system of hop control, and that is being replaced by this protective duty, as the Chancellor himself called it. The essence of control is that it is temporary, and is to continue only for such time as the hop farmers would be able to re-establish the hop gardens which they had grubbed for patriotic motives during the War. The reason for hop control has largely disappeared, and in order to make sure of the effects of that duty, which I have suggested are likely to be exceedingly serious in many directions, in order to make sure that the effects shall be examined at an early date the Amendment which is in my name and that of my hon. Friends is to limit the duty to one year instead of four as proposed in the Bill. I see no reason at all why the Government should not accept the Amendment. It is a perfectly reasonable one. It would be a leap in the dark to impose this duty, and I suggest the Government know perfectly well that, without loss of dignity and with a saving of time which appears to be wasted, the Financial Secretary could get up and say that the Government accepted the Amendment I put forward with the desire to be helpful to the Government.

The Government, I am sure, are extremely obliged to the hon. Gentleman for wishing to be helpful, and I only rise to offer a few observations upon the proposition he has submitted to the Committee. I do so because I am directly interested in the question to which his Amendment refers. I would like, in the first place, to reassure him on the question of the preoccupation in his mind as to the price and quality of beer. I can give him an assurance that neither the price nor the quality will be in any way adversely affected by the small duties it is proposed to reimpose upon foreign hops. Therefore he may have his mind at rest upon that point. On the second point to which he referred, which was the doubt he entertained as to whether this was a proposal that was necessary; I do not propose at this stage to weary the Committee by reciting the history of the control of hops, but I should say it has been common ground among all the parties that when the period of control came to an end some action would be necessary. The thing the Committee is confronted with is whether it would be prepared to continue control or impose some such duty as is imposed in the Bill. The hon. Gentleman said that this duty was protective, but what would he say to the system of control in the South of France?

Yes, I am aware of that, and he would have employed more violent language in the case of the control such as I have mentioned. All these duties do is to replace a prohibited market by a free market. This proposal commands the balance of agreement between the conflicting interests. It is designed in the interests of growers to enable them to resume the position they occupied before the War. The hon. Gentleman's Amendment is designed to render it entirely nugatory, and for these reasons I regret the Government cannot accept it.

This particular item is undoubtedly one that calls for very serious criticism when all the facts are known. When the War took place and the acreage of hops was seriously reduced, I believe from 35,000 to 15,000 acres, the production was well below the quantities required for the production of beer in this country, and while it is true —and the hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) will agree with me—that there are two kinds of hops necessary for the best quality of beer, the acreage at this moment in hops is such as to be actually more than the required quantity in accordance with the present consumption of beer. I gather the present acreage in hops is approximately 25,000, while the consumption of beer is approximately 26 million barrels. Previously to the War the consumption of beer was 36 million barrels and the acreage in hops was 35,000, so that the period of control at all events has allowed the acreage in hops to tally favourably with the consumption of beer. Now this proposal is not only going to stabilise for four years this £4 preference for English producers, but it will increase the trouble that the small producers are having this year in disposing of the hops that they have actually grown. The right hon. Gentleman can tell us, if he will, that there is a surplus even this year. If this proposal is going to lead the producers to believe that the home consumption will be larger than it has been, when the wages of the people who largely dispose of this national beverage are going down, it is going to create more havoc among the small hop growers than has been the case during the past two years. It seems to me if the Chancellor told us very definitely that this item is a small one for the purpose of securing a small amount of revenue and stabilising at least a handful of people who have invested heavily in hop production in this country, he would be telling us the truth of this proposal. I rather fear that this proposal is going to have the effect of placing the whole of the hop production in the hands of a comparatively few people who will be making enormous profits, and it will react to the detriment of the small producer. For that reason I support the Amendment.

I should like a little information on this particular point. [ Interruption. ] This is only the second time I have spoken, and before I finish I hope my hon. Friends will assist me to get the information. I desire it in order that I may vote correctly on this particular question and not as I am told to vote. It is just as necessary that the hon. Gentlemen who are so vocal from some reason or other at this time of the morning should have the information that I require. I should like to know from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how much it is expected that these Duties will bring in to the Exchequer. I think that information is very necessary. Then I think the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Agriculture is in strange company to-night. I am very much concerned for the future of agriculture and the improvement of its present position. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talk a good deal on occasions, and I hope they will assist me to keep the Minister for Agriculture to night. I do not think there is any fear that he will go to sleep. We are on such a serious subject; we are talking about hops. But what I should like to know is this: Is this Duty designed to assist the English agriculturist? If so, I should like the Minister of Agriculture to tell us in what way. I think it is time the Government did something to assist the English agriculturists. From the point of view of the Minister of Agriculture and his Department, the Safeguarding of Industries Act has a damaging effect so far as superphosphate is concerned. What I should like to ask him is this: Is the Minister, in supporting the imposition of this particular Duty, on the same dangerous road of damaging British agriculture? If, on the other hand, he is endeavouring to assist it, he has not said so up to now, and I should like him to have the opportunity of telling the Committee exactly How this will assist English agriculture. I know he is quite honest enough to say if he thinks the proposed Duty will damage the British agriculturist

I hope my hon. Friends will not force us to a Division. I think we do owe a debt to the farmers who came to the assistance of the country at a time when it was absolutely necessary that they should do so. I should like myself to have seen it graded down to four years. I think it is all right at £4 for two years, but I think afterwards it should have come down to £2 for the next two years. Nevertheless, I would rather see it stand as it is than reduce it to one year, because I do not think we are doing justice to the farmers who have assisted us. The English farmer wants less of theory preached to him and a little bit more of practice.

I intervene in this Debate to support the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and to give an opportunity to the proposer of this Amendment to withdraw it by supplementing some of the information for which he has asked. The principal sources of hops, on account of the climatic facilities for growing, are Tasmania, California and Kent. If we allow the industry here to be damaged, these outside sources would have a monopoly which would end very soon in increasing the price of beer.

This debate is far more interesting than anyone thought it could possibly become. It only shows what a splendid thing it is when any hon. Gentleman as distinguished and courageous as he who has just addressed the Committee will break away from the rule of silence and give us the benefit of his views. He says there is a Dominion source of supply —Tasmania—and therefore we must tax the hops coming from the Dominions. I thought his was the party of Imperial Preference which was in favour of reducing taxes on Dominion products, and I do not see how he is going to reconcile the discrepancy of this duty with the support he intends to give on Clauses 7 and 8 to the policy of Imperial Preference. As to the hon. Gentleman above the gangway, I should like to know how far is this argument to go. The farmers are excellent people, but why on sentimental grounds should they be given this right?

It is not on sentimental grounds that I am making my point. It is on the ground of the sacrifice they made to the country during the War period.

It is a very invidious task to discriminate between people who made sacrifices during the War. The farmers were not the only persons who made sacrifices during the War. If you are going to put forward claims for a tariff on these sentimental grounds, that the farmer is a good fellow and did his duty in the War, then there is no end to it and you are heading straight for a general tariff. That is exactly why we are fighting the Budget. There is another point about this duty. It is supposed to be a temporary duty. I ventured to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the last occasion whether it was a temporary duty and he avoided the question by stating that the Clause said it was for so many years. I will ask the Minister of Agriculture: Is this a temporary duty or is it not, or is it merely a way of fixing on the consumer of this product a tariff and creating a vested interest in the duty in order that later on they may come forward and say, "Here is the vested interest created?" I believe myself it is the first step towards a tariff on agricultural products. There is a very large body of opinion on the other side of the House who wants Protection. You cannot protect an industry here and there, and refuse protection to the greatest of all the industries of the country.

Of course you cannot; there is no logic in it. I will only say that the duty is in itself Protection and again ask, Is it to be temporary? I believe it will not be temporary. I do not believe the Minister of Agriculture will come forward and give a pledge that it shall be temporary. If so, why put in four years? The fact in that it is the first step in agricultural protection. We know the Government themselves have

proposed a tax on barley and would like to impose a tax on barley. Therefore, I say, people who believe that a tax on agricultural produce would bear hardly upon the consumer of that produce in this country, should support the Amendment as a bounden duty and press it to a Division.

On a point of Order. I have asked two specific questions—one to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and one to the Minister for Agriculture.

If it is not a point of Order, is not an hon. Member entitled to press his point in debate? Is the Minister of Agriculture prepared to come forward and give his word and say that this is a temporary duty? It will not abbreviate debate to meet reasonable questions dealing with points of substance merely by silence. If reasonable questions are asked and not answered then we can merely continue to exercise our own right. I gave the Minister the right to answer the question whether this is intended to be a temporary duty or not.

The hon. Member for East Bradford (Mr. Fenby) asked what would be the yield of the duty if we accepted this Amendment. The reply is £25,000 against £250,000 in a full year. For the current year £15,000 against £130,000.

I did not say whether I was supporting the Amendment or not. [ Interruption. ] I hope I was perfectly courteous in the question that I put. I have been supplied with an answer, and I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

Question put, "That the words 'four years ' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 200; Noes, 59.

Division No. 144.]

AYES.

[1.50 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Albery, Irving James

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Briscoe, Richard George

Campbell, E. T.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Balniel, Lord

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Christie, J. A.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Clayton, G. C.

Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Burman, J. B.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Cooper, A. Duff

Holland, Sir Arthur

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Cope, Major William

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Couper, J. B.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Rye, F. G.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Salmon, Major I.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hudson, R. S. (Cumbel'nd, Whiteh'n)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Sandon, Lord

Crook, C. W.

Huntingfield, Lord

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Savery, S. S.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Jacob A. E.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Jephcott, A. R.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Shepperson, E. W.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Lamb, J. Q.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Loder, J. de V.

Skelton, A. N.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Looker, Herbert William

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Lougher, L.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Smithers, Waldron

Eden, Captain Anthony

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

England, Colonel A.

MacIntyre, Ian

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

McLean, Major A.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macmillan Captain H.

Storry Deans, R.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Macquisten, F. A.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Fermoy, Lord

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Finburgh, S.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Fleming, D. P.

Meller, R. J.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Fraser, Captain Ian

Meyer, Sir Frank

Templeton, W. P.

Gates, Percy

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Gee, Captain R.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Tinne, J. A.

Goff, Sir Park

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Gower, Sir Robert

Nelson, Sir Frank

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Grace, John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Grant, J. A.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nuttall, Ellis

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Oakley, T.

Wells, S. R.

Gretton, Colonel John

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Penny, Frederick George

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Philipson, Mabel

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hanbury, C.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Wise, Sir Fredric

Harrison, G. J. C.

Preston, William

Womersley, W. J.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Hawke, John Anthony

Radford, E. A.

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Remer, J. R.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Remnant, Sir James

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—

Hilton, Cecil

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Lord Stanley and Mr. Margesson.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Ropner, Major L.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Potts, John S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Scurr, John

Ammon, Charles George

Harris, Percy A.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Barr, J.

Hayday, Arthur

Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hayes, John Henry

Sutton, J. E.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Taylor, R. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Thurtle, E.

Charleton, H. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Tinker, John Joseph

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Varley, Frank B.

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Day, Colonel Harry

Lawson, John James

Warne, G. H.

Duncan, C.

Lee, F.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Fenby, T. D.

Livingstone, A. M.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lunn, William

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Mackinder, W.

Windsor, Walter

Gillett, George M.

MacLaren, Andrew

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Morris, R. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Paling, W.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 201; Noes, 60.

Division No. 145.]

AYES.

[2.0 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Albery, Irving James

Goff, Sir Park

Philipson, Mabel

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Gower, Sir Robert

Power, Sir John Cecil

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Grace, John

Preston, William

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Grant, J. A.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Radford, E. A.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Balniel, Lord

Gretton, Colonel John

Remer, J. R.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Remnant, Sir James

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Ropner, Major L.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hall, Lieut.-Col. sir F. (Dulwich)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Rye, F. G.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hanbury, C.

Salmon, Major I.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Harrison, G. J. C.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Briscoe, Richard George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hawke, John Anthony

Sandon, Lord

Brocklebank C. E. R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Savery, S. S.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hilton, Cecil

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Brown, Maj. D. C.(N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Burman, J. B.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Shepperson, E. W.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Skelton, A. N.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Campbell, E. T.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Huntingfield, Lord

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Smithers, Waldron

Christie, J. A.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Jacob, A. E.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Jephcott, A. R.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Clayton, G. C.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cooper, A. Duff

Lamb, J. Q.

Storry Deans, R.

Couper, J. B.

Loder, J. de V.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Looker, Herbert William

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Lougher, L.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Crook, C. W.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Templeton, W. P.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

MacIntyre, Ian

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

McLean, Major A.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Macmillan, Captain H.

Tinne, J. A.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Macquisten, F. A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Margesson, Captain D.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Meller, R. J.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Meyer, Sir Frank.

Wells, S. R.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Eden, Captain Anthony

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

England, Colonel A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Nelson, Sir Frank

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Everard, W. Lindsay

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fermoy, Lord

Nuttall, Ellis

Womersley, W. J.

Finburgh, S.

Oakley, T.

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Fleming, D. P.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Fraser, Captain Ian

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gates, Percy

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Penny, Frederick George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Gee, Captain R.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Major Hennessy and Major Cope.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Dalton, Hugh

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Day, Colonel Harry

Harris, Percy A.

Ammon, Charles George

Duncan, C.

Hayday, Arthur

Barr, J.

Fenby, T. D.

Hayes, John Henry

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Gibbins, Joseph

Hirst, G. H.

Broad, F. A.

Gillett, George M.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Cape, Thomas

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Charleton, H. C.

Grundy, T. W.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Kelly, W. T.

Scurr, John

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Lawson, John James

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Warne, G. H.

Lee, F.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Livingstone, A. M.

Sutton, J. E.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Lunn, William

Taylor, R. A.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Mackinder, W.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Windsor, Walter

MacLaren, Andrew

Thurtle, E.

Morris, R. H.

Tinker, John Joseph

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Paling, W.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

Potts, John S.

Varley, Frank B.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

CLAUSE 7.—(Imperial preference, sugar, etc.)

I beg to move, in page 5, line 34, to leave out the words "ten years," and to insert instead thereof the words "one year."

It is a matter, I am sure, of great regret to Members in all parts of this House that they have to deal with such an important Clause of the Finance Bill at this hour of the morning. I am sure that even the Members on the opposite side of the Committee would be the last people to wish to burke the right to discuss and debate the principle involved in this Clause, and therefore for their sakes as well as our own I regret that such an important matter should have to be debated at this early hour of the morning. We must, in dealing with the Amendment now before the Committee have some reference to the history of the tax which is to be stabilised for ten years, and the general effect it will have as we have been told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the debate.

It is quite in Order to raise the question of Imperial Preference, but if that be so, it cannot be repeated on Clause 9 when we get to the other articles.

With respect I submit to you that while I do not wish to debate the whole realm of Imperial Preference, this particular remission in respect of the Empire on a most important article of food makes it necessary to refer in great detail to the subject of sugar, but I do not propose to go outside the one commodity of sugar in dealing with the Amendment. I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself will not wish that we should not examine the whole of the issues involved in the sugar proposals.

If I may interrupt, I would say that, of course, as far as we are concerned, we should like to have the matter properly threshed out, but only once. We should like to have it properly threshed out on this Amendment to Clause 8, but not to have all the arguments repeated word for word with the substitution of dried fruits or anything else. We ought to have the matter discussed once and for all.

I should like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to agree that I adhere to the subject of the sugar preference. The proposal in this Clause is to stabilise to growers of sugar the increased rate of preference for a period of ten years. On that I think we ought to know what is the reason for the Chancellor's proposal. I notice he said in his Budget speech:

"So far as sugar is concerned we propose to restore the preference to the level it was before the reduction of the duty last year—namely, 4/3½d. per cent., and also to provide that the preference shall remain at that level for 10 years or so long as the full duty does not fall below that level. This is the second time I have proposed a ten years' guarantee on sugar preference to Parliament. I announced such a guarantee in 1921."

Then he goes on to say

"It was reprobated and repudiated—in my absence—by the right hon. Gentleman in 1924, but nothing has occurred to alter our view, as to the importance and need of giving a sense of security to the producers of Empire sugar, so that it will enable them to make further plans with something definite to look forward to in the future."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th April, 1928; cob. 83–4, Vol. 183.]

I am glad to hear the cheers, because during previous debates the Chancellor has drawn an analogy between the sugar duty and certain other duties we have discussed, and has illustrated the fact that the sugar arrangements for Excise make it a perfectly good Free Trade matter, and that the principle can well be applied to the other things he has discussed. But when we come back to the origin of the Chancellor's purpose, which is to give protection and stabilisation to the grower, then we see that the very taxes he Has been holding up as an example to Free Traders are being used on this occasion, as he used it in 1921, as a Protectionist Measure for the growers of sugar. I think it is just as well to draw his attention particularly to that point. I have here a report which is known as the Wood Report, and on pages 46 to 50 of that Report there is a special paragraph dealing with sugar and the whole case for protecting the West Indian sugar. May I remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that when the present Minister of Agriculture came back from the West Indies there was a question, probably due to departmental inspiration, which was put in the House of Commons by the present Minister for Air. The Chancellor, then at the Colonial Office, announced that he was going to give a 10 years' guarantee, and the guarantee was actually given by him without any reference to Parliament at all—a most invidious procedure for any Cabinet Minister to adopt. He will, no doubt, recollect there was some criticism about that.

What is the point I am trying to make? [ Interruption. ] This Amendment is not for the purpose of obstruction. The Chancellor knows quite well I am the last to want to obstruct. I sympathise with hon. Members who have to be kept up, but I am not going to be diverted from my course. What is the origin of the purpose of the Chancellor? It means that a tax on a great staple commodity in the food of the people which had always been pledged as a revenue tax is to be diverted into another channel and used for protectionist purposes for the benefit of growers within the Empire. It is to be, to use the words of a well-known economist, "discriminative," and I submit there is no more vicious form of taxation than to discriminate in regard to a source of supply of the people's food. Let me pass to the history with regard to the help this country is asked to give to the West Indies and other parts of the Empire. I remember it was a Conservative Government in 1902 which made a present of £250,000 in one lump sum to growers of sugar in the West Indies, and from that time onwards they were never satisfied, and they were continually beg- ging for help and for protection from this country. In 1919 we gave them a rebate of taxation of 4s. 3½d. per cwt. That was continued from 1919 to 1921. The members of the Tory party in my constituency in the last General Election were issuing by the thousand a leaflet which tried to persuade the electorate that last year we had fought against the reduction of the tax on the food of the people. I suppose we shall be told again in the constituencies that in opposing this Measure we are actually opposing a reduction. I would ask hon. Members who support this vicious propaganda if they can point to a single quarter in which Empire sugar has been sold to the consumer at a reduced price. I invite any hon. Member to give me a case. They know full well they cannot.

The hon. Gentleman's claim about tea was quite wrong.

The hon. and gallant Member will never find I have stated that the granting of Empire preferences has in fact reduced the price of tea to the consumer. The real fact is that, in continually granting preference of this kind in a discriminating manner, we are giving no advantage at all to the consumer in this country. We are robbing the Treasury of a large portion of the tax which successive Chancellors say is necessary for revenue purposes. On one of the most important foods in the people's diet you are putting a heavy tax giving a large rebate from the Treasury, with no advantage in price, and the poor people in this country are regularly paying on the price of that commodity a heavy tax which does not go to the Treasury, but goes to bolster up traders in other parts of the Empire. Some hon. Members do not like the term "bolstering up," but would the Chancellor not admit that it is a perfectly fair term? Even the Postmaster-General, who is such an expert on the subject, would have difficulty in controverting the statement that, in spite of the preference given to Empires-grown sugar—and I exclude any reference to sugar produced in India, because there is no surplus there for export—there has been on no occasion any marked increase in the production of Empire-grown sugar. When I was moving the repeal of the Sugar Duty in 1923, the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) spoke and supported the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that time, the present Prime Minister, in refusing to accept the Amendment.

The hon. Member for Ilford did me the honour to refer to the remarks I had made, and said there was a very largely increased consumption of sugar, that there was a shortage of supply, and that the only real remedy was to take steps to increase very largely the growth of sugar in the Empire so that we might have an independent supply. I wonder whether he, with his very wide knowledge of finance and commerce, would say that his remarks then have been justified by the results, because he also referred to the fact that Germany was importing sugar in larger quantities.

I am talking about sugar generally, and the world production and world consumption of sugar. Is it not the fact that, in spite of the heavy reduction in the tax on sugar last year, and therefore an increased demand for sugar, the price of the article ex tax is far cheaper now than it was in 1923, because there has been such a very largely increased production of sugar throughout the world? The whole of his prophecy on that occasion has been falsified. And in regard to the other part, that the only remedy was to increase the supply of Empire-grown sugar, the history of Empire-grown sugar since we gave the preference is that there has been no real increase in output at all. It is unfair, of course, to compare the special war period, but I take the production of Empire sugar in 1913–14, excluding India, which was 954,000 tons. In 1923 it was 1,008,000 tons, and in 1924 it was round about 900,000 tons. There has been no real increase in the production of Empire-grown sugar as the result of these precious preferences. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says his object is to assist the growers of Empire sugar, and give them stability and so on for further development. Is there any real hope that this Preference is going to help them in that direction when there is all over the world an increasing production? There is no real hope that such a preference will in fact materially assist the growers of Empire sugar. I take another point. I wonder whether he has had any representation from the British refining industry about the proposal, first, to double the Preference, and secondly the stabilisation for 10 years. Is he not aware that we have a large and important British refining industry and that the granting of these preferences to the Empire-grown sugar, not in a raw state but sent over in the main as a finished product, is going to do very serious injury to the British refining industry? So far as you give help in this direction for the sending from the Empire of the finished refined sugar, you are going to help to throw out of employment British workers engaged in the British refining industry. If there were any case at all for lending assistance to the Empire growers of sugar, it ought to be confined to raw sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 97 degrees, so that it might be used as the raw material for the British refining industry. Although the case is an important one and needs to be stated at same length, I do not wish to detain the Committee unduly, but let me say this: I anticipate that there will be general comments in this debate about the desirability, in regard to sugar, of doing what we can to knit together the Empire, to do what we can to establish some degree of reciprocity with those Dominions and Colonies which will send us sugar. Is that the basis upon which the British Empire has been built? I ask the Chancellor this especially, because I remember him as one of the old antagonists of Imperial Preference. I wonder if he recognises this little speech?

"The British Empire is held together by moral, not by material forces. It has grown up in liberty and silence. It has. not persevered by restriction and vulgar brag."

I do not think he was thinking of that when he proposed to come to the House again and renew what I characterise as an unwarranted and unfair pledge made by him in 1921 without proper Debate in the House of Commons. If you want a still further, and on Colonial matters an even more authoritative utterance on how the British Empire was cemented, let me take one whose memory is revered in this House because of his great work for what he believed to be right—Imperial Preference. The late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain said:—

"The link which unites us, almost invisible as it is and sentimental in its character, is one which we would gladly strengthen; the same tie that has proved itself to be so strong that certainly we would not wish to substitute for it a chain which might be galling in its incidence."

While it is true that in this Clause which the Chancellor submits to the House in this Bill there is a proviso as to what would happen if the Sugar Duty-is repealed, the very purpose for which the Chancellor asks us to stabilise this for ten years lays upon the House and the people what we shall afterwards be told is a moral obligation to the Dominions and Protectorates and Colonies producing sugar. Is it not going to be just that kind of chain, galling in its incidence, when we are told, in face of the justifiable aspirations of this country to get a free breakfast table, that we cannot remove the tax upon one of the most important articles of their diet and that we are morally bound by the right hon. Gentleman and his party to continue the duty for 10 years? Surely, it points to us the absolute invidiousness of the Chancellor coming to the House with a proposal to bind any future Governments in this way, and I think I may speak with some authority for my friends in the party with which I am associated when I say that we make our protest here and now, and when we get the opportunity we shall not be bound by any such Clause as this which is before us to-night.

The hon. Gentleman has spoken on Imperial Preference. I think the hon. and gallant Member last night when I was out of the House attributed to me the expression of having said that the door was banged, barred and bolted on Imperial Preference. Of course, that is an absolute and gross misquotation and misrepresentation. What I did say was that the door was banged, barred and bolted upon the Protective taxation of food. That was said about 15 years ago and I say it now. But to leave these matters of history. In 1917 the question of Imperial Preference entered upon a new era. That was with the consent of all the parties in the State. In the Government then in power the Labour party was officially represented. One of its leading Members was a Minister and one of its greatest ornaments and was actually a Member of the War Cabinet of the time. [An HON. MEMBER: "He left us for our good."] I think that is rather discourteous. For about 40 years he was one of the pioneers of the Labour movement. But the fact remains that the Labour party officially and firmly resolved—and Liberals, Conservatives and Labour were all definitely Members of that Government—and the Dominions were fighting by our side in very large numbers; they sent large forces voluntarily to fight in the field and were losing heavily with our men—it was solemnly decided by the Imperial Conference of 1917 that whilst there was to be no taxation on the basic foods of the people, nevertheless so far as it possibly could be done there was to be a system of differential and preferential duties between the Dominions and the Mother Country and between one Dominion and another as far as tariffs and methods of Government would permit in regard to preference upon their various commodities and in regard to existing duties. This proposal arises directly out of that decision in which the Labour party was officially and solemnly partners. All we have done is to carry it out. We carried it out in the days of the Coalition, and then came the question, if you are going to give a preference on existing sugar duties to the West Indies and to Empire sugar, ought you not to invest some permanence to that action.

It seems to me that is a very reasonable thing to do. How in any other way are you to develop sugar estates if this preference is only to be from year to year. You will not get the advantages of greater output unless you agree to give it for some definite period. There is nothing wrong from a Parliamentary point of view in giving a guarantee of ten years. We are taking an absolutely correct course and giving legislative sanction to the proposal. I would like to know what would happen if the West Indian Islands sugar industry failed. The history of the West Indies goes back a long way. During the period of the Napoleonic wars, when this country's wealth was one-fiftieth of what it is to-day, the West Indian Islands bulked largely and repeatedly gave large subsidies to the common cause of the war in Europe at that time. I certainly think on every ground we should desire to see their well-being maintained. But it is not only on grounds of sentiment but from a practical point of view, for if the sugar industry of the West Indian Colonies failed, the only alternative would be grants in aid. We should be compelled to put upon the Votes of this House charges each year of so many hundreds of thousand pounds to relieve the burden of the Government or to leave the islands derelict, and whatever Government was in power that would not be done. It is absolutely essential that we should deal in a practical measure with the preference on sugar in the West Indies and to encourage these Colonies in order that they can be self-supporting.

Could we take this step in better circumstances than we do at the present time? There is absolutely no question of the fiscal freedom of the House of Commons being abrogated in the slightest degree. Express provisions are provided by which at any time this House could reduce the Sugar Duty, and this preference accorded to the West Indian islands or to Empire sugar generally is in no way any obstacle to any reduction or repeal of the Sugar Duties which this House may choose to make.

I was sorry indeed when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) last year went out of his way to overturn the guarantee which had been given. I thought it was a wanton act to do that. I think it appealed to the prejudices of a certain number of hon. Members, for there are a number of Members, who feel they are serving some public course by attacking the principle of Imperial Preference in every way and at every opportunity. That is not the view of the whole of the Members of the Labour party. A considerable number of the most valuable Members of that party take the view that, if no burden is placed upon the necessities of life, reasonable preference may well be given to the Dominions. And it is not the view of the Liberal party, represented by its Leader in this House, because he was the head of the Government that passed the resolution of the Imperial Conference of 1917. I think it is not the view of a number of those associated with him. Although the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith (Captain Benn) endeavours to make us believe that he is very hostile to any principle of Imperial unity, and although he wastes many words upon that, we prefer the action he displayed at a critical time. I submit that every precaution has been taken. There is no question of a rise in the cost of living. We are merely carrying out the pledge to the Imperial Conference of 1917, by which all parties in the House were bound, and, I trust, we may find ourselves united in the execution of that pledge, as we were in the giving of that pledge.

It would be ungracious of me, after the many kindnesses1 the right hon. Gentleman showed, and the remarks addressed to me, to be so harshly critical as I intended to be of the argument that the War, and the unity shown in the War, commit us to some sort of preference or fiscal promise. It is a very dangerous and vulgar argument indeed. It seems to me an argument that is as vulgar as the argument that no one is in favour of our Empire and country unless he adheres to the policy the right hon. Gentleman now supports, but once opposed. You are introducing elements of division which may be dangerous if we come to a moment of crisis again. It is extremely unfair to take advantage of the sinking of all political differences during the War and pretend that we are bound to uphold some fiscal heresy which is a disintegrating influence in the British Empire. The right hon. Gentleman would not say to General Hertzog that South Africa has not got complete fiscal freedom; that there is a breach of faith in relation to the Imperial Conference of 1917. If you are not going to allow fiscal freedom to the Dominions, there is an end of Imperial unity. The right hon. Gentleman has turned round. He has altered—as he is entitled to alter—his views. We are entitled to hold his former views, and if I quote him, it is because he then carried conviction to my mind.

The right hon. Gentleman's second reason was that after the Napoleonic Wars the West Indies made great contributions to this country; that if we did not subscribe to the sugar estates they would be derelict. All these reasons existed before the War, and that did not prevent him from being a fierce opponent of Imperial Preference before the war. [ Interruption. ] I am speaking of the first and, if I may say so, the greatest Napoleon. This Imperial Preference is a slippery slope. It is what the Colonial Secretary called "an automatic process." Once you start there is no knowing where you will land. How far have we advanced since the War? In 1919 the present Foreign Secretary (Mr. A. Chamberlain) got up and said:

We are promising, without any warrant, to give them 10 years of this advantage. What guarantee can the Chancellor of the Exchequer give of a 10 years' guarantee? We certainly encourage those who do not understand the vicissitudes of politics in this country, who may think that when an Act of Parliament says 10 years it means 10 years. Morally we are giving them a pledge when the right hon. Gentlemen of the party opposite are not in a position to give a pledge for 10 years. It means, further, that, whatever sub-Section 2 of this Clause may say, we shall not be able to reduce this duty below 4s. 3d. The moment the sugar duty gets to 4s. 3d. everybody will come in the Dominions' interests and say, "You promised us 4s. 3d. advantage, and you are proposing to let in foreign sugar at a lower rate. We demand a cash promise or the maintenance of your sugar duty at 4s. 3d. That really is the chief objection to this Imperial rebate. We do not want the idea of Empire to be associated with taxes on tea, sugar and articles of common consumption. I certainly shall not make particular argument on that. But we are sterilising this duty and the main objection to this is that it is for a limited class of people who happen to have estates in the West Indies. You are asking poor people to pay more on their tea and sugar and are going to tax them in other ways in order that this money should be handed over to the general rate and maintain the general rate. It is for these reasons that we are opposed to this particular device that we intend to support that Amendment moved by my hon. Friend.

I will not venture to answer that speech of my right hon. Friend opposite who has just sat down. The one factor which growers of sugar in the West Indies call for is security, and anything that will bring about security is of the utmost importance and therefore any help that ranges for only one year is worse than useless. One of my hon. Friends referred to the grant of a quarter of a million of money which Mr. Joseph Chamberlain made to the West Indies. I had a part in administering that. The money applied to the industry, which was then in a state of utter ruin, brought it to approximate prosperity which must be a satisfaction to this House. With that small grant all the old sugar machinery was scrapped. New central factories were 8et up and new machinery for these factories was set up from Glasgow, and permanent prosperity was given to these islands. These questions must not be approached by dogmatic references to Free Trade and Protection as though they were religions. Whether it was Protection or not, Mr. Chamber-Iain saved those Colonies. This Government's Imperial policy of Imperial Preference is Mr. Chamberlain s policy. Another technical point I wish to refer to is that the idea that this sugar grown in the West Indies feeds the refineries in England. Workers here in the refineries are not going to be prejudiced because of the sugar imported from the West Indies. The next point of technical importance is this. The hon. Gentleman contends that the price of sugar has never gone to the benefit of the consumer. It is absolutely useless to make these comparisons. Finally—[ Interruption ]— I merely wish to be respectfully useful in an endeavour to enlighten the House as to the case.

3.0 A.M.

I will go back to the point from which I was diverted by the last interruption. There is not any large influence exercised by putting Imperial sugar upon the markets of the world. Sugar production in Australia is limited to the needs of Australia, and there is no export except what we have in this country. Therefore there is no fear that Preference will affect the interest of workers in this country. As to the West Indies—the unfortunate West Indies—they have ceased to have any real importance in the volume of sugar production in the world, and the importance as far as they are concerned is to prevent their breaking a charge on this country of being in a state of conditional bankruptcy. Live and let live ought to be the watchword of the Labour party. I can assure my hon. Friends opposite that capitalists are not getting any money out of it. Perhaps I know about the sugar industry a little more deeply than my hon. Friends who have just grazed the surface. The main supplies of sugar of the world come from non-English sources, and the Preference to the West Indies will have a. small influence on the price of sugar. I hope under these circumstances that the Amendment will be withdrawn.

I am not going to enter into the personal and historical research indulged in by my hon. Friend. It makes one despair of getting out of old-fashioned ideas in a controversy of this sort. I also propose to take the Imperial patriotism of hon. Members of this House for granted and only discuss this question of why we should have this particular 3d. stabilised for a period of 10 years. I do not agree with the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not because I am opposed to preference as such, but because I do not think it will achieve the object aimed at for various reasons. Some people seem to treat Preference and Free Trade as something like a religion. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down treats it as such.

We want to increase the supply of Empire sugar, and I was surprised to hear the extraordinary argument of the hon. Member that because there was a limited supply of sugar there should be Preference. What we want to get is a large supply of Empire sugar, and if you had it the Preference would not affect supplies. I do not think the proposal will lead to the object aimed at. We have no guarantee of the method of control of price, which is an enormously important question. It also gives us no guarantee of control of the conditions of the industry. Preferences are not a panacea. You must treat these matters one by one, individual industries and individual subsidies. We want to give aid to the sugar industry in any way that will help, but we do not want a particular set of individuals to carry on. an industry in a manner which is not very efficient. I would suggest that the Committee agree with us in this particular matter, for preference is not going to help the industry in the way they want. We want to see that the supplies are not adversely affected. We should examine during the period of a year the conditions of the industry, labour, sanitary conditions and formulate a definite policy on lines adapted to this particular industry and not merely adapted to the fetish of preference which is regarded as a kind of fanaticism. You must apply preference where it will be helpful. I for my part shall support the Amendment, as I believe all the members on these benches will do.

I listened with very great interest to the arguments given. It has provided an object lesson from the Chancellor in rhetoric and repetition which have become a habit for a great many years in this House. I would like to take a little further the two chief points made in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander). There appears to be a suggestion that fearing some responsibility for the grave of Suvla Bay the Chancellor has decided to give some small preference to sweeten their memory.

It would be a very bad thing indeed for this country and for this Committee if it becomes a recognised thing that past sacrifices made for a common cause are to be made the emblem and badge of any particular party or any particular political opinion. There are some of us on this side who are getting rather tired of the suggestion that patriotism is confined to people who prefer to drag the Union Jack into the gutter at elections as a symbol of one party instead of the State; and with regard to that, I think that is the kind of sentimental excuse for a bad and unfair tax which should not carry any considerable weight in this Committee. Then we were told that we are to give a preference to Empire-grown sugar for 10 years. It is sheer bluff. The party opposite may be in power for 10 years and they may not. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has not had an altogether flourishing effect on the parties with which he has been connected in the past, and it is bluff to give our Colonies, or certain sections of interest in our Colonies, the impression that you are going to give them a 10 years' Preference when you know very well that the alternative party in the State will reverse this at the first opportunity. It is sheer swank, putting up a thing and saying this is the law of the Medes and Persians for 10 years when people know perfectly well that it is subject to political exigencies in the same way as anything else. We are told this is necessary because it would be worse than useless to give this Preference unless you gave it for 10 years, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said the whole point of giving it for 10 years was in order that the sugar growers and those interested in the industry in the Colonies might know where they are going, and be able to plan ahead. Why is this particu- lar Preference given for 10 years! Why not dried fruits and other things!

These are adjectives applied to this policy with which I have the utmost agreement. I think the policy is very speculative and very precarious, and I think that any kind of tax on sugar is not only precarious and speculative, but very wrong and very unfair. If you are going to give Colonial Preference, the very term makes it imperative to put a still higher tax on sugar or anything else that comes from other parts; and from the point of view of these benches and quite apart from all theoretical speculation as to the respective advantages of Protection and Free Trade, we are quite certain that it is the duty of this Committee and of any Government in power in this country to see that the food of the people is made as cheap and taxed as little as possible. There are many of us who will be only too glad to hear one of the hon. Members opposite put up a decent case for Protection. We are not prejudiced against Protection, but you must convince us that you are honest and that your friends are not going to rob us when you have brought it in.

On a point of Order. Are these Parliamentary terms—robbing, and the other parts of the speech which the hon. Member has just made!

I did not understand the hon. Member to refer to any particular individual.

I would like to take the opportunity of making it quite clear that I accuse no hon. Member of this House of robbing us. I am quite well aware that that would be an infringement of the Rules of this House. What I said was that there are interests represented in the party opposite and the party on my left who would certainly not be at all slow to take advantge—legitimate, I suppose, in the business sense—of any protective proposals introduced by the party opposite. The fear of that is a fear which you will have to conquer before you succeed in getting this country to give even consideration to the protective proposals that you bring forward. Hon. Members entice me to go on, but I do want to end seriously, if I may, by saying that, whatever agreement or disagreement there may be about Free Trade or Protection in this House, I would most sincerely ask the Government at this very difficult time, financially and industrially, to think and hesitate a very long time—even for the sake of our friends in the Colonies— before they take any step to bring in any

legislation to give any kind of Preference or put on any kind of new taxes which are going to increase the price of any staple article of food in this country or prevent the reduction of the price from what it is at this moment.

Question put, "That the words 'ten years' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 59.

Division No. 146]

AYES.

[3.20 a. m,

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Goff, Sir Park

Power, Sir John Cecil

Albery, Irving James

Gower, Sir Robert

Preston, William

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Grace, John

Price, Major C. W. M.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Grant, J. A.

Radford, E. A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Renter, J. R.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Balniel, Lord

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Rye, F. G.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Hall, Lieut.-Col, Sir F. (Dulwich)

Salmon, Major I.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hanbury, C.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Sandon, Lord

Briscoe, Richard George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hawke, John Anthony

Savery, S. S.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W R., Sowerby)

Brooke Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hilton, Cecil

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Shepperson, E. W.

Burman, J. B.

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Skelton, A. N.

Butler Sir Geoffrey

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Campbell, E. T.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Smithers, Waldron

Cecil, Rt. Hon. sir Evelyn (Aston)

Huntingfield, Lord

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Christie, J A.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Jacob A. E.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Jephcott, A. R.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Clayton, G. C.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Storry Deans, R.

Cobb Sir Cyril

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Cooper, A. Duff

Lamb, J. Q.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Cope, Major William

Loder, J. de V.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Couper, J. B.

Looker, Herbert William

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lougher, L.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Courthope Lieut.-Col Sir George L.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Templeton, W. P.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Crook, C. W.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

MacIntyre, Ian

Tinne, J. A.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

McLean. Major A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Macmillan, Captain H.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Macquisten, F. A.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

Meller, R. J.

Wells, S. R.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Dean Arthur Wellesley

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Dixon Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

England, Colonel A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Nelson, Sir Frank

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Everard, W. Lindsay

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Womersley, W. J.

Fermoy, Lord

Nuttall, Ellis

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Finburgh, S.

Oakley, T.

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)

Fleming, D. P.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William

Gates, Percy

Penny, Frederick George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Major Hennessy and Mr. Margesson.

Gee, Captain R.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Philipson, Mabel

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Harris, Percy A.

Scurr, John

Ammon, Charles George

Hayday, Arthur

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Barr, J.

Hayes, John Henry

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sutton, J. E.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Taylor, R. A.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Charleton, H. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Thurtle, E.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Tinker, John Joseph

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Varley, Frank B.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lawson, John James

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Duncan, C.

Lee, F.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Fenby, T. D.

Livingstone, A. M.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lunn, William

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Mackinder, W.

Windsor, Walter

Gillett, George M.

MacLaren, Andrew

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Morris, R. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Paling, W.

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Warne.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I should not like this Clause to be adopted by the Committee without making one or two remarks about the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech to-night. I feel that he did not make a very adequate reply-to the point I put before him. His speech on the subject has been full of inconsistencies. He says with one breath that there is nothing in the Clause to prevent our repealing or reducing the Clause, with the next that a ten years' guarantee is necessary to be of any help to the grower, and then that his predecessor was guilty of a "wanton act" in reducing the duty. What guarantee is this to the consumer? The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows as well as we know on this side of the House that

it has been forced through by the majority he has behind him. If this House adopts a Clause in a Bill which permits stabilisation for 10 years, people of the Empire will say and his supporters will say at some future time that we have laid upon ourselves the moral obligation to maintain, not only stabilisation of the preference and the Duty but probably to make up in some way or other from the Imperial Exchequer the financial aid they need if it should be the will of this House at any future time to repeal the Duty altogether. I think it would be wrong for us to go to a division on the Clause without saying these few words.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 190; Noes, 58.

Division No. 145.]

AYES.

[3.30 a.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H.

Albery, Irving James

Campbell, E. T.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

England, Colonel A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Christie, J. A.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Everard, W. Lindsay

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Balniel, Lord

Clayton, G. C.

Fermoy, Lord

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Finburgh, S.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Cooper, A. Duff

Fleming, D. P.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Couper, J. B.

Gates, Percy

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Gee, Captain R.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Briscoe, Richard George

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Goff, Sir Park

Brittain, Sir Harry

Crook, C. W.

Gower, Sir Robert

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Grace, John

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Grant, J. A.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Brown, Maj. D. C.(N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Burman, J. B.

Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Hanbury, C.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Smithers, Waldron

Harrison, G. J. C.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Hawke. John Anthony

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hilton, Cecil

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Storry, Deans, R.

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Nuttall, Ellis

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Oakley, T.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Holt, Captain H. P.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Penny, Frederick George

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Templeton, W. P.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Philipson, Mabel

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Huntingfield, Lord

Preston, William

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Tinne, J. A.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Radford, E. A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Jacob, A. E.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Jephcott, A. R.

Remer, J. R.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Ruggles-Brice, Major E. A.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Lamb, J. Q.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wells, S. R.

Loder, J. de V.

Rye, F. G.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H

Looker, Herbert William

Salmon, Major I.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Lougher, L.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Sandon, Lord

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Savery, S. S.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

MacIntyre, Ian

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Wise, Sir Fredric

McLean, Major A.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Womersley, W. J.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Macquisten, F. A.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R. Ripon)

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Shepperson, E. W.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Margesson, Captain D.

Skelton, A. N.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES —

Meller, R. J.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Major Cope and Captain Douglas Hacking.

Meyer, Sir Frank.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

NOES.

Adamson Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Scurr, John

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, G H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Ammon, Charles George

Hayday, Arthur

Sutton, J. E.

Barr, J.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Taylor, R. A.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hirst, G. H.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Thurtle, E.

Broad, F. A.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Tinker, John Joseph

Charleton, H. C.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Varley, Frank B.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kelly, W. T.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Dalton, Hugh

Lawson, John James

Warne, G. H.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lee, F.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Duncan, C.

Livingstone, A. M.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Badwellty)

Lunn, William

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Fenby, T. D.

Mackinder, W.

Windsor, Walter

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

MacLaren, Andrew

Gibbins, Joseph

Morris, R. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Gillett, George M.

Paling, W.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

Grundy, T. W.

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The practice of the House, as every Member knows, is that an announcement is made as to what business is to be taken in the course of the sitting. That practice was followed by the Prime Minister when he was asked by the Leader of the Opposition what business he intended to take. He said he intended to take down to the end of Clause 7 of the Finance Bill. I asked if it was not a good deal that he should desire the House to finish down to that Clause in one sitting. He said we must go as far as that. Members of the House were informed accordingly that we would not go beyond Clause 7.

Will the hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Erskine) kindly exercise a little more patience? It is perfectly true that about midnight the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself suggested that some modification of the Prime Minister's own scheme should be made. After consideration, we were unable to accept his offer of modification of the scheme. His offer was that we need not go to the end of Clause 7 to-night, but that we should go as far as Clause 5 or Clause 6. He asked if we would agree, and we said we would not. I suggest that to continue now—that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as acting Leader of the House, should not rise and move to report Progress—is a flat breach of every Parliamentary practice, and by this new squad system—[ Interruption. ]—It is all very well, but the fact is that the business is arranged in a way that is according to immemorial practice, by the announcement of the Leader of the House, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer demands to go on, that is not in accordance with the ordinary decency of this House.

I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer this question. The Chancellor will remember that earlier in the evening an arrangement was nearly come to with the major part of the Opposition, and it was with some regret that we were unable to carry through that arrangement. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have observed that, although, of course, we carried on the Debate, it has not been prolonged or carried on in an obstructive manner. A large number of our colleagues and, if I may say so, a good many of his left the House on a definite understanding that we should not go beyond Clause 7. I suggest to him that it would be very unwise of him in the interests of the Members generally if he kept the House any longer.

Of course nothing is more important than that a scrupulous undertaking of promises and declarations and understandings in the course of the negotiations between the authorities on either side announced in the course of the Debate should be carried out. It is quite true that we took the trouble to get the statement which the Prime Minister made about the business to-day, and it is quite true that he has indicated that he hopes to get to the end of Clause 7 and would not proceed beyond that point. At the same time, at a later period of the evening, the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition informed us that the arrangements were at an end. However, after that, he then proceeded to discuss the possibilities of an arrangement. It was certainly no fault of the great majority of the Opposition that an arrangement far more convenient to the House and more advantageous to the members of the Opposition was not arrived at. That arrangement was entirely overturned by the efforts of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Bennett). I think it very unbecoming that after the whole of the Committee has been put to great inconvenience he should bring forward a Motion to report Progress. However unworthy and unjustified such a plea in his mouth is, I feel bound to regard it on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and to defer to the wishes expressed by my right hon. Friend because I am bound to recognise that the discussion has been in every way free from an obstructive character. We are ready and capable to continue the discussion and to dispose of the whole of Part I. before we separate from the labours of the day and next day, although we will not press that further to-night. But I would say this: that we shall expect that every effort will be made which must be further discussed between the proper authorities of the House, and I put it to the right hon. Gentleman who is leading the Opposition to carry out the conditions that after it is possible to bring the Electricity Bill to a termination at a more or less early hour time may be found to dispose of the remaining Clauses of the Bill. I am not going to advise the House, but I hope the discussion may enable us to get, before we separate to-morrow night, to the end of Part 1 of the Finance Bill. It will have very great advantages from the point of view of public discussion, because it would allow the discussion on Income Tax to be entered upon at an early hour on Friday, instead of a large part of Friday being wasted. It would be far better that with the general discussion of the Budget we should press for an arrangement of that kind or, failing an arrangement, have the right to take whatever action we think best. I do not oppose the Motion before the Committee

I would like to ask whether Clause 8 will be taken tomorrow or on Friday.

To-morrow.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).

Air Ministry (Cattewater Seaplane Station) Bill

Ordered, That the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills do examine the Bill with respect to compliance with the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Eight Minutes before Four o'Clock a.m.