asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the Ministry are referring disabled men for treatment to the panel doctor but, in some cases, refusing the recommendation of that panel doctor so far as the payment of treatment allowances is concerned: and whether he will see that due regard is paid by the Ministry to the treatment prescribed by the panel doctor in so far as it affects the treatment allowances Regulations?

I would remind my hon. Friend that the conditions governing the grant of allowances under Article 6 of the Royal Warrant are not identical with those which determine certification for the purpose of Health Insurance, with which the insurance practitioner is concerned. For the purpose of the former allowances, certification by a medical officer of the Ministry is required under the terms of the Warrant. At the same time any information which may be supplied by a panel doctor with regard to one of his pensioner patients is always taken into careful consideration in connection with any certificate required to be given by an officer of the Ministry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that where a local panel doctor has supplied treatment and allowances are necessary because of the peculiar kind of work of the individual, invariably they are ignored, while the income of the man receiving panel treatment is absolutely nil? Does he not think consideration might be given to those cases?

It is not the case that certificates of panel doctors are ignored, but obviously in Ministry work the decision of the Ministry doctor must be final.

Should not special cases, for instance where a coal miner is not able to follow his work owing to his injuries, be reconsidered in the light of the panel doctor's recommendation?

I quite realise the hon. Member's point. It is one which, if carried into effect, would increase some pensions and decrease others.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he will state the number of cases that have been recommended by local Ministry doctors for reconsideration by the correction of errors board, and the total number of such cases that have resulted in the final award being increased?

I am unable to furnish statistics on the lines specified by my hon. Friend. But I may say that up to the 21st November last 2,550 cases had been dealt with by the Ministry. In 1,402 of these cases a further grant had been made. In the remaining cases considered it had been found, either on local medical advice or otherwise, that there was no ground for disturbing the final award.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether funeral grants are allowed to widows pensioned under Article 17b when the death of the husband was wholly and solely due to war service?

The answer is in the affirmative.

asked the Minister if Pensions how many fall-time area pension offices and sub-offices there are in the county of Yorkshire and where they are situated; and the maximum distance that a pensioner may be living from the nearest office where he can apply for treatment in respect of disabilities due to war service?

There are in the county of Yorkshire 21 Ministry offices, namely: ten area offices at York, Keighley, Harrogate, Hull, Hnddersfield, Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, Doncaster and Sheffield; four whole-time sub-offices at Scarborough, Halifax, Dewsbury and Barnsley, and seven part-time sub-offices at Whitby, Northailerton, Todmorden, Pontefract, Goole, Mexborough and Rotherham. I am satisfied that these offices provide adequate facilities for pensioners to apply for treatment, &c. Pensioners living in the remote districts can, and do, make application by post.

Do those who have to come from a distance have their expenses paid?

There are a number of cases in which expenses are paid.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the casie of Mr. O. Morgan, of 34, Coltman Street, Greenwich, S.E.1O, late private, No. 32,284, of the Devonshire Regiment, who, as the result of war wounds, was awarded a pension of 10e. a week for 104 weeks, and in September, 1924, a gratuity of £20 at the end of the pension period; whether he is aware that, the wounds on one of Morgan's ankles having broke out again, the man is receiving treatment under the Ministry of Pensions although all applications for further pension have been rejected by the Ministry; and whether, in view of the fact that Morgan is practically a helpless cripple and unable to work, consideration will be given to his further claim for pension?

I have made inquiries into this case, and find that the man is receiving surgical treatment with the necessary allowances. At the conclusion of treatment, his condition for pension purposes will be considerd in the normal course, and if the final award is found to be seriously erroneous, any necessary adjustment will be made.

asked the Minister of Pensions for what purpose it is proposed to issue Regulations authorising the deduction of sums up to 5s. a week from the pensions of the children, aged between 14 and 16, of deceased sailors, soldiers and airmen; whether the money will be paid into the Post Office Savings Bank in separate accounts in the name of each child; in the event of the death of the child to whom would the accumulated arrears be paid; and whether, before the new Regulations are issued, he will lay them upon the Table of the House for the information of Members?

The object of the instructions referred to, which would apply to motherless children only in receipt of wages, is solely in the interests of the children, in order to provide them with means of purchasing tools, an outfit or other similar emergency or occasional expenses, which may be necessary between the ages referred to or later. With regard to the second and third parts of the question, the administrative arrangements are now under consideration, but it is, of course, clear that any balance of warrant allowance unexpended is the property of the child and would be subject to disposal in the same manner as any other arrears of pension or property of a beneficiary in the hands of the Ministry. The matter would be dealt with by instruction and not by statutory regulation, and the procedure suggested would not, therefore, be appropriate, but as soon as the arrangements are complete, I shall be happy to cause information to be embodied in a Paper, copies of which could be placed in the Library of the House and will be furnished to any Member who requires them.

Will interest be added to any sums held back from these children?

I am not prepared to reply to that at once. The general matter has been considered by various councils and on the whole the suggestion has been favourably received.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that a pension has been refused to ex-Private W. Austin, No. 227,893, 1st Monmouthshire Regiment, at present residing at 5, Parrot Row, Blaina, Monmouthshire; that this man was gassed on 24th June, 1917; that he was in eight hospitals for a total period of two years before he was discharged; and that he has been in hospital 23 weeks since he was discharged and on treatment allowance for two years; and will he have this case fully reinvestigated and the man reboarded so that he may obtain his pension?

I am having further enquiry made into the facts of this case, and I will communicate with the hon. Member when I am in a position to do so.

asked the Minister of Pensions what is the number of medical officers holding the appointment of Area Deputy Commissioner of Medical Services and what is the average number of square miles in each area outside the Metropolis; and whether any deputy commissioner of medical services is responsible for more than one area as originally constituted under the War Pensions Act, 1921?

The number of Area Deputy Commissioners of Medical Services is 57, of whom five are stationed in the Metropolitan areas. The square mileage of the districts covered by these medical officers is irrelevant to the question of their proper distribution, which is made, and where necessary, varied, in accordance with the distribution and needs of the ex-service population. In the more densely populated districts, where the work is heaviest, the deputy commissioners are provided with assistants, who number 30 in all. The reply to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

asked the Minister of Pensions when the last meeting of the Central Advisory Committee was held; whether the committee had under consideration any resolutions passed by regional advisory councils; and, if so, what were the resolutions and the recommendations made?

The last meeting was held on the 28th July last. The subjects under discussion at the meeting included matters raised in resolutions received both from advisory councils and war pensions committees in regard to medical treatment and allowances, children's allowances and time limits on fresh claims to pension. The Central Advisory Committee does not proceed by way of formal resolution, but various suggestions were made on the matters referred to which have been considered by me with a view to giving effect to them as far as may be found practicable.

When will the next meeting be held?

That has not yet been arranged. I hope in the New Year.

asked the Minister of Pensions what was the number of pensions issued by the Issue Office at Edinburgh and the Issue Office at Acton, respectively, in the years ending 30th September, 1922, 1923, 1924, and 1925; what was the number of interim awards made by each office in each of the years in question; and what was the cost of the staff and administration in each office in each year?

As the reply contains a number of figures. I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, seeing that all awards made under the Regulations governing erroneous awards are made under the Dispensing Warrant of 1884 and after reference to the Treasury, he will consider the desirability of introducing such amendments to the Royal Warrant of 1919 as will permit of a man whose pension has ceased and the disability has recurred, and of men in receipt of life pensions whose degree of disablement has increased since the issue of the final awards, appealing for the re-issue or increase of pension to his Department and avoid the months' delay that follows owing to the need of referring cases to the Treasury after the Ministry has decided the merits of the case justify the re-issue or increase of pension?

The object proposed by the hon. Member would necessitate not an amendment of any Warrant, but the repeal of Section 4 of the War Pensions Act, 1921, and the abolition of the whole scheme of final settlement for disablement due to War service, which I am satisfied would not be in accordance with either the wishes or the interests of ex-service men. In cases where it is sought to impugn the statutory settlement otherwise than by the legal appeal procedure provided for by that Section, it is obvious that there must be the most careful consideration of the whole of the circumstances. In particular it must be shown that as a final decision as to the normal extent or degree of disablement resulting exclusively from the effects of War service, the final award is seriously and permanently erroneous. It is my desire to simplify the procedure as far as possible, but time is inevitably occupied in some cases in making the inquiries necessary in order to arrive at a just decision.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, seeing that it cost £24,670 for the Special Grants Committee to deal with approximately 34,000 cases in the first 10 months of this year, and that most, if not all, the cases had previously been considered by the area war pension committees and area officers, he will consider, in the interests of economy and efficiency, the termination of the appointments of the members of the Special Grants Committee and the transfer of the powers and duties of the committee to the area war pension committees?

The suggestion made by the hon. Member was considered at length by the Departmental Committee in 1921. For the reasons given by the committee in their report, I am satisfied that the interests of economy and efficiency, which the hon. Member has in view, would not be served by the adoption of the course suggested.

Has the right hon. Gentleman power to change the membership, and does he not think that the time has come when there should be some revision?

That does not arise out of the main question.

asked the Minister of Pensions what proportion of the 26,000 in receipt of treatment with allowances are inmates of mental institutions; what is the number of chronic cases which have been more or less under treatment since discharge; and whether, particularly in the case of neurasthenics, he will consider the possibility of awarding a good life pension, and release the men from treatment?

About 6,600 of the total number of cases under treatment are inmates of mental institutions. Apart from this class of case, there are a substantial number of men who have received prolonged periods of treatment since their discharge. Many of them, e.g., those suffering from paraplegia or severe cases of wound and injury, require constant medical attention and skilled nursing. Others, although happily not in this condition, are. in accordance with medical advice, receiving prolonged institutional treatment and cure, combined where possible with occupation. It is not the intention of the Ministry that cases should indefinitely or unnecessarily remain in an institution, and where it is considered by my medical advisers that any case can more suitably be dealt with by discharge from institutional care, with an appropriate rate of pension, this course is adopted.

Does that reply apply to cases at Saltash?

Yes. We do not want to give up hope of curing these men if we can.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, on the death of a parent in receipt of a dependant's pension, any action is taken to notify the surviving parent that; the pension may be transferred to him or her, as the case may be?

On the death of a parent in receipt of pension the Ministry would not ordinarily know whether there is a surviving parent, and could not therefore undertake individual notification. The possibility of transfer (which applies of course only to certain classes of pension) would, however, be explained to a surviving parent if he or she made inquiry at the local office of the Ministry or otherwise.

Is it possible for the local office to make inquiry as to whether there is a surviving relative?

We should be glad if in any case the local committees could get information which would enable us to pay any pension which is due.

If a parent in receipt of a dependant's allowance goes into an infirmary, say, eight weeks prior to the death of the parent, what justification is there for the pension being stopped for those eight weeks?

That does not arise here, but if the hon. Member has a case in mind I should be very glad to go into it.

The right hon. Gentleman has a case of that kind under his consideration now from my constituency.

It shall be gone into.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he proposes to close the sub-office in Pendlebury on the ground of economy; and what is the estimated yearly saving anticipated?

There is not a sub-office of the Ministry of Pensions in Pendlebury, but in the adjacent district of Swinton them is a part-time sub-office. The question of closing this office has been under consideration, and it has been decided to keep it open for the present.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will reconsider the proposal to merge the Salford, Eccles, and District War Pensions Committee into the Manchester War Pensions Committee, in view of the fact that a committee covering such a large and congested area will entail hardship on ex-service men in the outer districts having to travel to Manchester?

There has been no proposal to merge the two committees mentioned by the hon. Member. An alteration in the control of the staff and office arrangements in Salford is under consideration, and has been referred to the two committees concerned for their observations, but it is not in contemplation that the office there should be closed.

asked the Minister of Pensions in how many cases have pensions been granted where the claim was made after the seven years' limit; and what special circumstances, apart from a man being under treatment and thus barred from submitting a claim until the course of treatment was completed, would permit of the Ministry considering a claim made for pension in respect of war injury after the expiry of the seven years' limit?

Grants have been made in about 11 cases where a first application for pension was made in the circumstances referred to. As I explained to the House on the occasion of the Debate on the Vote of my Department, I am prepared to consider exceptional cases in which it is clearly shown that a man has been seriously incapacitated by his war service and that a claim could not resonably be made at an earlier date. I would point out that if a man is undergoing treatment for a disability already accepted by the Ministry this does not debar him from making an application in respect of disablement arising from another cause.

In the case of an ex-service man who was discharged in December, 1918, and who the authorities declare was discharged in June of that year, what opportunity has he to prove that he was discharged in December and, therefore, be enabled to appeal?

I should be very happy personally to examine the case where such a thing has occurred.

asked the Minister of Pensions the number of pensioners and persons in receipt of compassionate or other allowances who were on the pay roll on 1st January this year and the number on 1st December?

The total number of beneficiaries under the Royal Warrants or otherwise in receipt of compassionate and other allowances was approximately 1.963,000 on the 1st January and 1,859.000 on the 1st December.

What has caused the decrease?

The main cause of the reduction in the number of people in receipt of these allowances is due to the fact that 55.000 children have reached the age of 16.

asked the Minister of Pensions on what date approval was given to the appointment of two principal assistant secretaries to the Ministry of Pensions: whether the volume of work had at that time commenced to decline, and has continued to decline each year: and whether there is any reason for the retention of two principal assistant secretaries in the Department?

A post as second secretary was authorised by the Treasury on the 28th April, 1920. Authority was given for the conversion of this post into one for a principal assistant secretary and for the creation of a second post on that grade on the 10th October, 1921 The volume, though not the complexity, of the work of the Ministry had already shown a decline, and the decline has since continued. The number of principal officers at Ministry Headquarters was recently reduced by two, and I am entirely satisfied that there is sufficient responsible work to necessitate the retention of the officers referred to.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- ment if he will state why Hyman Sunderland, of Liverpool, resident in this country since 1888, who applied for nationalisation in 1914, has not yet been granted his papers?

The application referred to was received shortly after the outbreak of war, and, as in the ease of thousands of other applications received at that time, its consideration was not proceeded with. There is no trace of any later communication from the applicant, but if he wishes to renew his application and will write to the Home Office the matter will receive attention.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will arrange with his hon. Friend the Member for North Salford (Mr. Finburgh) about the difference he had with him as to cases in which applications had been made and had not been granted?

I do not know how that applies to this case at all. This is a case where application was made in 1914, and I certainly was not then responsible.

Are we to understand that all the applications made in 1914 are still outstanding, and that they must be repeated if any consideration is to be given to them?

No. The answer to the question is quite clear. There were thousands of applications in 1914 which, quite obviously, could not be proceeded with during the War by my predecessor. They were put on one side. The bulk of them applied over again. If this gentleman cares to apply, the case will be considered at once.

asked the Home Secretary whether, seeing that in the Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories for 1924 it is stated that only three out of 5,000 accidents in the heavy chemical trade were due to a breach of the Regulations, it is proposed to introduce further Regulations with a view to reducing the number of accidents in this trade?

The 5,000 accidents referred to represent the total number of accidents reported from all classes of works in the Warrington district. Only 676 of these occurred in the chemical trade. The great majority of these 676 accidents appear to have been due to risks which are incidental to every class of industry and which, for the most part, are not preventable by Regulations, such as, for example, persons falling, or stepping on or knocking against objects, and so forth. So far as one can see at present, the only hopeful way of dealing with this class of accidents is through the establishment of safety organisations in the individual factories and the development generally of the Safety First movement. Everything possible will be done by the Factory Department to stimulate action in this direction.

asked the Home Secretary whether, having regard to the great increase in the use of varnishes or dopes composed of celluloid or nitrocellulose dissolved in acetone, amyl acetate, or similar solvent, he is satisfied that the present Regulations governing ventilation and the absence of naked lights are satisfactory; and, if not, whether it is proposed to introduce Regulations governing factories where the varnishes or dopes are used at an early date?

Very few accidents or dangerous occurrences from the use of these varnishes or dopes have so far been reported, and I am advised that so far as danger to health from inhalation of the fumes is concerned, the existing requirements of the Act have been found adequate. The Chief Inspector is not satisfied as to the position in regard to the risk of fire or explosion, and special inquiries into this point are now in progress.

asked the Home Secretary how many cases of lead poisoning occurred among pasters engaged in the manufacture or repair of electric accumulators in the years 1921, 1922, 1023, and 1924, respectively; and whether any cases have been reported since the new code of Regulations came into force on 1st March, 1925?

There were five such cases reported in 1021, 11 in 1922, 44 in 1923, and 42 in 1924. Since the 1st March last there have only been 15 cases among pasters. The new Regulations cannot be expected to have their full effect for a considerable time, but they appear to have already caused a substantial reduction in the number of cases.

asked the Home Secretary how many cases of poisoning by carbon bisulphide, aniline poisoning, and chronic benzene poisoning have been reported since the 1st February, 1925; and what special steps are being taken by his Department to diminish the risk of chemical poisoning?

Two cases of carbon bisulphide and 30 cases of anilin poisoning have been reported, but no case of chronic benzene poisoning. Special steps are taken to diminish the risk by following up each case, and generally by the enforcement of the special precautions required by the Chemical Works Regulations of 1922. The whole subject is receiving special attention from the medical inspectors.

asked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to take further proceedings against those members of the Communist party who are not imprisoned; and whether instructions have been given to effect the arrest of prominent Communists in the provinces?

In reply to the first part of the question, I can only say that it is not the practice of the authorities concerned to give previous notice of their intentions in such a matter; and as regards the second part, the hon. and gallant Member must draw his own conclusions from the fact that such arrests have not been made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that previous notice was given through the Sunday papers, and that an obviously inspired paragraph appeared that the provincial police had been ordered to round up all their Communists? How does he account for that?

I do not think a Minister can be held responsible for what appears in the Sunday newspapers.

Is it not a fact that, nine days before the other arrests, the right hon. Gentleman himself, in great detail, announced that some of the accused were guilty?

There is no foundation whatever for that statement.

Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the report in the "Times" of 6th October, in which he gave the names of two of the defendants and the announcement that they were "in the pay of Moscow"?.

Being "in the pay of Moscow" does not make them guilty. They were charged with quite a different offence from that. The hon. and gallant Member knows that the statement which he has just made is quite without foundation.

Not at all.

asked the Home Secretary whether the 12 Communists recently sentenced to imprisonment are being treated as political prisoners and given appropriate treatment as such?

The 12 prisoners in question, who were ordered by the Court to be imprisoned in the Second Division, are being treated in accordance with the Statutory Rules respecting offenders of that division.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the past political prosecutions were common in this country, and that political prisoners were treated in a separate category, in the First Division, and that every other country in Europe, including Russia, treats them in that way? Why does he treat them differently?

Does the hon. and gallant Member include Russia?

Certainly, I do.

The decision of the Court was that these prisoners were to be imprisoned in the second division, and they are having all the privileges of that division.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is extremely ill-informed about Russia, and that political prisoners in Russia are given special treatment?

I visited some of the friends of hon. Members opposite when there.

Are these prisoners allowed books other than those in the prison library, and any writing material?

I cannot say that they are allowed books other than those in the prison library, but if representations are made that they should be allowed fresh books, I will see whether anything can be done.

I may say to my hon. Friends that I have on many other occasions allowed special books. I see no real objection to it. With regard to writing materials, prisoners in the second division have certain extra privileges, and all of these these men will have.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see, too, that these prisoners are released when Bottomley is released?

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, at a recent meeting of the medical students of London Hospital, the dean of the students' guild stated that he had received a request from the Home Office that he should take steps to enrol the students of the hospital into a special branch of the special constabulary; that this action was taken in view of the possibility of industrial trouble in the spring; and that similar requests had been made to the deans of guild at St. Bartholomew's and Guy's Hospitals; and whether such request has been made by the Home Office, and the reason for the action?

I have not made any request such as the hon. Member suggests. The Commander of the Headquarters Central Division of the Metropolitan Special Constabulary addressed an ordinary recruiting meeting of the students at the London Hospital last month, but I am informed that no statements as suggested in the question were made either by the commander or by the dean who introduced him to the meeting.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Police-constable. William Bates, Wolver-hampton Police Force, was called upon by the chief constable to resign on account of the police constable's wife having been convicted of petty larceny, and that the police constable was threatened with dismissal if he did not do so; will he state under what statutory Regulation or section of the discipline code the chief constable has power to carry out this threat; and, in view of the constable's 35 years' service, what compensation is proposed for the loss of his livelihood when innocent of any dereliction of duty?

I am aware of the facts of this case, and I under stand that the watch committee came to the conclusion that if the constable was not prepared to resign, there would be no alternative to dismissing him. In a borough force the power of dismissal rests, not with the chief constable, bat with the watch committee under Section 191 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1885. There is no specific provision in the Police Regulations on the point in question, and there is no power to grant compensation.

Were the Police Regulations and the disciplinary code not framed in order that no man should be wrongfully dismissed? Is this man to be subject to dismissal apart from the disciplinary code?

The powers of dismissal are exercised, not by myself, but by the watch committee.

Under your Regulations?

Under my Regulations. They have, under my Regulations, dismissed this man. I cannot interfere.

Do I understand that this man has been dismsised under the statutory Regulations made by the right hon. Gentleman?

I must assume, as I do assume, that the watch committee of an important town like Wolverhampton are acting in accordance with the law and (he Regulations. They have dismissed this man.

Can I have a reply to that part of my question, which asked under what statutory Regulation or section of the discipline code the chief constable has power to carry out this threat of dismissal?

I can only answer that the watch committee act under the whole of the Regulations. Under which particular Regulation they have acted I do not know.

Would the right hon. Gentleman look at the Regulations, and if he be satisfied that there is no Regulation under which this man has been dismissed, will he communicate with the watch committee so as to have their action rectified?

I must consider that. The hon. Member had better put the question on the Paper. He is now introducing, or affecting to introduce, powers to myself which I do not think I possess.

Does any Regulation exist that affects the police to the extent that if any small offence is committed by any member of the family, the individual who is a member of the police force is to be punished by dismissal?

The hon. Member had better put that question on the Paper.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the ease of J. H. Clarke, sentenced at the Surrey Assizes to seven years' penal servitude and to be flogged; and whether, seeing that Clarke was twice wounded in the War, the flogging will be remitted?

It is open to Clarke, within ten days of the conviction, to give notice of application to the Court of Criminal Appeal for leave to appeal against sentence, and Section 7 (2) of the Criminal Appeal Act provides specially for the case of a conviction involving sentence of corporal punishment.

Could not this mediaeval form of torture be omitted?

Is it not a fact that before these sentences are carried out, men are medically examined to see whether they are fit to receive a flogging?

Certainly.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the announcement of a performance for children at Olympia called the Christmas Circus, in which a single unarmed man is to appear in a cage with 70 lions and put thorn through certain manœuvres; and whether, in view of the demoralising effect on children, and the risk of life, he will say what steps he proposes to take to prevent such an exhibition being given to children?

Yes, Sir, but I have no power to prevent such an exhibition being given.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the lion is the national symbol, and that this brings the lion into contempt?

As this is a question of school children being taken to this exhibit to see the lions performing in a cage and a man inside the cage with them, will my right hon. Friend allow such a thing?

The answer is that I have no power in the matter. There is no Act of Parliament giving me power.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the correspondence which has passed between a firm of solicitors and the Public Prosecutor as to the mystery surrounding the death of Miss Iris Watkins, Blackwood, and that certain evidence which has come to light has not been acted on; and will he secure this evidence and, if it appears to be advisable, instruct Scotland Yard to proceed with investigations?

I am aware of the correspondence referred to, but I am not aware that any evidence has come to light that has no; been acted on. I understand the correspondence has been brought to the notice of the Chief Constable of Monmouthshire, and as the hon. Member was informed on 25th November, assistance in such cases is not given by Scotland Yard except upon request by the local police.

Are we entirely in the hands of an obstinate chief constable? I have seen a firm of solicitors to-day and they mentioned four new witnesses who are prepared to give evidence if this case is reopened. Has the Home Secretary no power over a chief constable who may not wish to proceed further with a case?

I really cannot assume to myself the power to regulate the action of the chief constable. I have no such power. Chief constables are appointed and regulated by local authorities. I have no power at all.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that any financial crisis in the iron and steel industry must have the effect of damaging the credit of British industry generally, and involving a complete set-back to any tendency to a revival extending over a much wider area than that of the industry itself, and that the price index for iron and steel products is now 19·6 per cent. compared with that for all commodities of 54 per cent. above 1913, and many staple products of iron and steel have already been reduced to 1913 levels; and, in view of these facts, if he will take steps to protect this industry in accordance with declared policy?

I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Flint by the Prime Minister on 7th December, when he said he hoped to make a statement; in regard to this industry before the House rises, but could not at present indicate a date.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in order that everything possible may he done to secure reduction of Government expenditure, he will consider appointing a group of independent committees, each, containing one Member of Parliament and two business men, to examine and report to him on the various Departments?

I would remind my hon. Friend that in recent years Departments have been examined and reported upon by various Committees similar to those suggested, and also by the Geddes Committee and the Anderson Committee, consisting of such eminent business men as Sir E. Geddes, Lord Incheape, Lord Farringdon, Lord Maclay, Sir Guy Granet, Sir Alan Anderson, Sir Herbert Lawrence and Sir Peter Rylands. At the present time a further comprehensive inquiry is being made into every Department and every branch of national expenditure by a special Cabinet Committee and also by the Colwyn Committee. In these circumstances I do not think farther Committees of the kind suggested could serve any useful purpose.

May I ask, with all respect, in view of the very favourable results arrived at by the Committees enumerated by my right hon. Friend, does be not think that the present Cabinet Committee, in the very onerous duties it has undertaken, might be insisted by an independent Committee such as I have outlined?

I do not think we should gain any assistance from an additional Committee at the present time.

Could not arrangements be made for the Estimates Committee to consider in detail some of the more important Estimates before they are considered in Committee of Supply in this House; and is it not the fact that the Estimates Committee usually functions after the Vote has been passed?

That is a rather far-reaching question, and I think notice ought to be given of it.

Have any of these committees of inquiry examined in detail the work performed by individual civil servants and decided whether it is perforated in the most efficient way; have they inquired as to whether the system of correspondence is the most economical, and would the right hon. Gentleman consider an inquiry of that kind?

These matters have been and are at the present time subject to examination.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has admitted the value of a committee of business men, will he experiment with a committee of non-business men?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a strong feeling in the country that any committee which depends very largely on the departmental heads for suggestions cannot be expected to make any drastic proposals for economy?

I have no reason to suppose—indeed I have the strongest reason not to suppose—that the permanent heads of the different Departments will not loyally support their official Parliamentary chiefs in the concerted effort which is now being made to check the growth of expenditure.

asked the Prime Minister if he will circulate a statement showing the size of the Cabinet in some of the leading countries: and, in view of the changes which had to be made during the War, if he will consider the appointment of a Parliamentary Committee to investigate the whole question of the size of the Cabinet?

The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative. My hon. and gallant Friend could, I think, obtain the information which he desires by consulting some of the annual books of reference, and I do not think that the labour involved in the preparation of such a statement would be justified by its results.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the British Cabinet is the largest in the world? I beg to give notice that I propose to call attention to this question at the earliest possible moment.

asked the President of the Board of Education the number of children under the age of five and between the ages of five and six in the elementary schools in Middlesbrough Education Authority, and the money he estimates he will save on these children's education during the next three years under the new system of grants suggested by Circular 1,371?

The numbers (on the registers) on 31st March, 1925, were:

Is the Noble Lord aware that if the education of these children is to be maintained, any apparent saving will be at the cost of the local ratepayers; and does he not consider that the taxpayers are better able to bear the burden than the ratepayers in these necessitous districts?

I do not accept the assumption of the hon. Member. He seems to ignore the fact that the Board will still be paying in grants more than 50 per cent. of the salaries of the teachers who are teaching the children.

Has the Noble Lord fixed the amount to be received by the authorities over the next three years without knowing what the economies might be, or what the expenditure might be?

I will answer that question, and I am sure the hon. Member will be interested in the answer. It is one of the beauties of the present grant system, that, although I am paying and Parliament is paying a grant on the current expenditure of local authorities, it is impossible for the Board ever to know what that expenditure actually is until six months after the end of the financial year.

Has the Board considered the possibility of making grants on the capitation basis?

That has often been considered, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend if he tried to devise a formula would find it very difficult.

In the interests of the health of the children, will the Noble Lord, if possible, see that children under five are kept out of the elementary schools?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to a statement of the Director of Education in Leeds that the operation of the proposals contained in Circular 1,371 will result in an annual loss of grant, to be met out of rates, of £36,785, of the equivalent of a rate of 3½d.; and whether, in view of the concern felt by local education authorities as to the effect of the new proposals, he will consider the withdrawal of the circular and leave the matter open until he has ascertained the views of the authorities concerned?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Gloucestershire Education Committee is of the opinion that the effect of Circular 1,371 will be to prevent the development of education and to throw a further burden on the ratepayers, and passed a, resolution to that effect; and whether, having regard to the widespread discontent, he will reconsider his position?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Middlesbrough Education Authority had undertaken work at the instigation of the Department which will be jeopardised by the instructions contained in Circular 1371 unless much heavier burdens are thrown on the rates; and whether in these circumstances ho, can give special consideration to distressed areas?

My attention has been drawn to the resolution of the Gloucestershire Education Committee, and also to the statement made by the Director for Education for Leeds, but the hon. Members will not, I hope, expect me to accept without investigation the figures quoted by them. As regards the latter part of the Question, hon. Members know that I have arranged to discuss the whole matter with local authorities.

May I ask whether one of the Noble Lord's colleagues, Lord Bledisloe, has discusssed the matter with him as he was asked to do by his council?

Yes, he has.

Is the Noble Lord aware that the application of Circular 1,371, in the case of the West Riding of Yorkshire, will mean a decrease in these grants varying from £100,000 next year to £246,000 in 1929; and does he not think that, in these circumstances, it is bound to cripple the development of education in that area?

I have received those West Riding figures. There is a great deal to discuss upon them, and I hope to discuss it.

Are we to understand that very special consideration is bound to be given to districts of that kind?

Yes, special consideration is bound to be given to districts where there is a new population problem, and where a large number of new schools have to be built.

Will the Noble Lord be so good as to answer Question 57, which he lumped together with two others, but to which he did not give any reply?

I do not see anything to which I have not replied.

I asked a specific question in regard to work undertaken at the instigation of the Department.

I cannot make any general statement, but I am prepared to discuss these things with the local authorities, and I am going to do so with the Association of Local Authorities next week. Meanwhile I cannot make any general statement.

May I ask whether special consideration or special expenditure will be made and confined within the terms laid down by the appendix to Circular 1371? Will the amount of money exceed the amount laid down in the appendix?

I must return the same answer as I did to the hon. Lady. I cannot give any general assurance or make any general statement until I have seen the local authorities.

How long will local authorities who have been making their plans for the approval of the Board up to now be kept waiting to know how much they will be allowed to spend?

I have told the right hon. Gentleman I am meeting the Association of Local Authorities next week. But as to these local authorities having proceeded with the full approval of and at the instigation of the Board, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that I specifically asked local authorities to defer non-urgent expenditure until they had submitter! their programme, so that I might be able to estimate the amount of money required and the amount of money available.

How many of these authorities have already submitted their programmes? Are there not many who have the approval of the Board?

No; six authorities alone have up to now submitted programmes under Circular 1358, and none of these programmes have yet been approved.

May I take it that the Noble Lord will be able to make another announcement to the House before we adjourn for the Recess, and after the discussion with the local authorities?

I hope so, but that will depend on the discussion with the local authorities.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the three years' programme of the London County Council, which has been authorised by the Board, will be partly or wholly suspended as a result of the. policy announced in Circular 1371; and, if not, how large a financial liability will be transferred from the taxpayer to the London ratepayer in respect of the completion of the programme?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that by the terms of the Board of Education Circular No. 1371 a serious situation will be created in London owing to the necessity of the London County Council having to provide for a deficiency of more than £300,000 a year in its present expenditure on education, and that such deficiency can only be met by in addition to the rates of about l½d. in the £, by the abandonment of the Council's present education programme, by the exclusion from the schools of children under five years of age, or by a combination of each of these methods; and whether, in these circumstances, he is prepared to withdraw the Circular?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he agrees with the estimate of the London County Council education authority that the proposals contained in Circular 1371 will result in a loss to that body of £460,500 in 1926–27, rising to £530,875 in 1927–28; and whether, having regard to the serious menace this represents to London education, he will advise the Government to withdraw the Circular?

I am in consultation with the County Council on the effect of the application of the Circular to their area, and I should prefer not to make any statement at this juncture.

Has the three years' programme to which reference is made in my question been authorised, and is it not jeopardised by the Circular?

I am bound to speak under a great deal of restraint. I do not want to discuss in public the finances of local authorities when I am discussing the subject with the local authorities themselves in private. If the hon. Gentleman wants to know whether the Board approved of the programme, the facts are that the right hon. Gentleman my predecessor approved the programme in general terms, subject to and reserving his right to pass judgment upon each item separately as it came up for specific approval.

If the, right hon. Gentleman did not want to discuss the finances of local authorities in public, why did he issue the Circular in question?.

The answer to that question is perfectly simple. As the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, the only way I could call the local authorities into discussion and give them a basis for discussion was by issuing a Circular, and that Circular contains no criticisms of local authorities, and certainly no specific criticisms of any particular local authority.

When the Noble Lord meets the local authorities, will he be in a position to abandon the principle of a ration grant which is embodied in the Circular?

I am certainly not going to abandon the principle that the liability of Parliament and the Government must be defined and that Parliamentary control over money shall not be rendered nugatory by automatic expansions of expenditure which has not been approved by Parliament.

May I ask whether the policy lying behind this Circular is to make the children of this country pay for the reduction of the Super-tax?

We cannot now go into that question.

asked the President of the Board of Education, whether he is aware that the county of Northumberland is expecting to spend on elementary education alone £9,000 more next year than this year and £17,000 more in the following year, on expansion which has had the full approval of the Board of Education; and whether he proposes that the whole of this increase shall now fall upon the rates 1

asked the President of the Board of Education (1), if he is aware that the provisions of Circular 1371 may mean a reduction in the expenditure on education in the City of York of £10,000 on the comparison with 1925–26; and if he will reconsider this reduction in the interests of the children of school age in that city;

asked the President of the Board of Education (1) whether he is aware that the effect of Circular 1371 on Kettering will mean an addition of a 4½d. rate; and whether he will reconsider the policy of the circular;

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the proposals outlined in Circular 1371 will cost the Urban District of Tottenham, approximately, £10,000 per annum, equal to a rate of 4d. in the £. without making any allowance for future educational developments; and, in view of the fact that this district is already classified as a necessitous area, whether he will withdraw this circular?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that in Huddersfield the development of educational facilities which the Board have encouraged the local authority to project will bear as additional cost of £9,000 to the rates in 1920–27 if Circular 1371 comes into operation; and whether he will consider withdrawing it?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the system of grants embodied in Circular 1371 will, if put into operation, involve an increase of the local rates in the Borough of Lincoln of between £3,000 and £4,000 a year if the present standard of educational efficiency is to be maintained; and whether, in view of the existing high rates and the danger to educational standards, he is prepared to withdraw the circular?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consider the withdrawal of Circular 1371, in view of the fact that, if made operative, it will cost the ratepayer of Bradford £14,000 a year, or 1½d. in the £ additional rates?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the fact that the operation of Circular 1371. in the development of elementary and higher education in the county of Surrey, will involve an addition to the loan charges of £33,000. the whole of which will fall on the rates, he will reconsider the policy of the circular?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that in Glamorganshire an additional shilling rate would be necessary to cover the reduction in grant proposed by Circular 1371 and the education commitments of the authority: and whether, in view of the gravity of the burdens already being imposed on this area on account of the incidence of other services, he will consent to the withdrawal of this circular?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the application of his Departmental Circular 1371 will hare the effect of requiring an increase of 8d. in the £ of the rates in the area of the Edmonton education authority; that the rateable value in his area is but £3 per head of the population; that the yield of a 1d. rate is only 1s. 8d. per child of school age; and whether, in view of this result in this and many other areas similarly situated, he will withdraw the circular?

With the permission of the hon. Members, I will answer these questions together. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I do that not out of discourtesy to hon. Members, but because there is only one reply I can give to all of them.

Had not the right hon. Gentleman in the case of Northumberland, when he made these new provisions, got: the figures of Northumberland before him, so that he, and his officials could at once tell what the effect on Northumberland would be, arid, therefore, cannot he say whether those figures are right?

No; I have just pointed out that, not only have I no means of knowing at this period of the year what the expenditure of local authorities next year is likely to be, but I have no means even of knowing in many eases what the expenditure of local authorities in the current year with which I am faced is likely to be.

Does the Noble Lord suggest that the Circular has not been understood by the directors of education in those areas under whose authority most of these figures have been given?

I do not want: to make any criticism of the figures given by directors of education, but it must, after all, be remembered that the forecasts of expenditure for next year, which, are commonly sent to me at about this time, have in previous; years always been very much over-estimated, and a number of other questions arise, not only questions purely of ever-estimating, but many other questions, and really there is no discussion possible except on the basis of the figures themselves.

Then does the Noble Lord suggest that those figures given are exaggerated figures?