House of Commons
Thursday, May 20, 1926
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Medway Conservancy Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
London, Midland and Scottish Railway Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Considered; to be read the Third time upon Tuesday, 1st June.
Aliens (Naturalisation)
Address for Return, "showing ( a ) Particulars of all Aliens to whom Certificates of Naturalisation have been issued and whose Oaths of Allegiance have, during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1925, been registered at the Home Office; ( b ) Information as to any Aliens who have during the same period obtained Acts of Naturalisation from the Legislature; and ( c ) Particulars of cases in which Certificates of Naturalisation have been revoked within the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 83, of Session, 1925)."—[ Captain Hacking. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Industrial Situation
Disturbances at Spennymoor
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that on Monday, 10th May, several men were attacked and batoned by police near Spennymoor, County Durham; and if he proposes to hold a public inquiry into the matter?
The hon. Member has apparently been completely misinformed. The facts, as reported to me, are that for a week a crowd had collected nightly at Ferryhill Colliery to steal coal and had persistently stoned any police who appeared on the scene. On the 10th May the police very properly took measures to deal effectively with this situation. They advanced on the crowd through a shower of missies and dispersed them, arresting 20, 17 of whom were charged, convicted and sentenced to imprisonment. There is no ground for any further inquiry.
Is the Home Secretary aware that three of the men and one boy who were batoned were not in the crowd, but were returning to Spennymoor, and had not been connected with the crowd at all? On those grounds, will he not grant the inquiry, because there is very clear evidence that they were not connected with the crowd?
If the men the hon. Member mentions were not connected with the crowd, I do not see how they could have been batoned.
As it is not possible to state now the evidence which I have, I beg to give notice that I will return to this question on the Adjournment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that just previously to the events referred to the hon. Member had made a speech at Spennymoor in which he said, among other things, that all the Reports of the Coal Commission ought to be collected and burned, and added, kindly, that the Commissioners ought to be hanged; and does not the right hon. Gentleman think that these disturbances may have arisen out of that?
Is the hon. Member aware that the Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) said no such thing?
Withdraw!
If the hon. Member says he never said such a thing—I read it in the papers at the time—I withdraw.
On a point of Order. Ought not the hon. and gallant Member to withdraw the serious allegation that he has made, in view of the statement of the hon. Member?
I have withdrawn it.
The hon. and gallant Member said that, in view of what the hon. Member had stated, he did withdraw.
I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not a fact that in cases of this kind the policeman's baton, like the rain from heaven, "falls alike upon the just and upon the unjust"?
That, of course, is probably correct, but the just ought not to be mixed up with the unjust.
Pickets Convicted, Stoke
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Hill and Lockett, sentenced to 21 days' hard labour in connection with picket work in the borough of Stoke on Saturday, 8th May; and is he prepared, in view of all the circumstances of the case, to advise the reduction of the sentence?
I am asking the chief constable for a report, and when received I will give it consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman cognisant of the fact that a certain amount of inter-borough jealousy arises in these matters, and the mere fact that Newcastle managed to get through without any trouble whatsoever lends a certain gusto to the action by the Stoke police towards Newcastle people?
I assume that Newcastle-under-Lyme, very much favoured in its representative, is more peaceful than Stoke; but, as I have said, I will cause inquiries to be made.
Special Constables
asked the Home Secretary whether he can inform the House of the total number of special constables and civil constabulary, respectively, sworn in during the period of the general strike in the Metropolitan area?
The total numbers of special constables and civil constabulary reserve enrolled in the Metropolitan Police district during the recent emergency were approximately 51,000 and 11,000 respectively.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has the figures for the country as a whole?
I have not got them made up yet, but I think the hon. Member may take it that, roughly, 250,000 special constables were enrolled throughout the country as a whole.
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that a special constable, wearing an armlet and carrying a truncheon, was arrested at the Criterion Restaurant at 11.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 12th May, on a charge of drunkenness; and will he cause an inquiry to be made into the facts of this case, in view of the complaint lodged by Drs. Brook and Imianitoff at Vine Street Police Station?
I understand that the complaint was to the effect that the man arrested ought to have been taken to the police station in a vehicle. The complaint has been investigated and found to be groundless.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that both of those doctors, who were independent witnesses of this occurrence, called at the police station, and the police practically ordered them out of the station and would not hear their statements?
I assume think that could be so, because my information is that one of these doctors is now out of the country, and the other has been seen by the police.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of these doctors is the Medical Officer of Health for South-wark?
Miners' Federation (Russian Subscription)
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Moscow Trade Union International is about to remit 2,600,000 roubles to the Miners' Federation of Great Britain; if he will take steps to prevent this money coming into the country; and have any steps been taken under the Emergency Regulations in this matter?
My attention has been called to this transaction. As the House is aware, power was taken by Regulation to prevent the transmission of moneys from abroad in furtherance of the general strike. A payment in aid of the miners, who are engaged in a genuine trade dispute, clearly stands on a different footing, and, whatever view may be taken of the motives of either the donor or the recipient, the Government do not feel called upon to interfere.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the fact that this sum represents deductions compulsorily made from the meagre wages of the Russian miners?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no justification whatever for making such a statement; and may I ask him whether the growing practice of hon. Members asking questions containing insinuations is in accordance with the procedure of this House?
I have to rely upon hon. Members personally vouching for the accuracy of any statement that they may make in their questions.
Is it not a fact that Mr. Cook did send the telegram which has been so widely reported?
Is the Minister satisfied that the position of the miners is such as to warrant them receiving financial help from whatever source possible?
It is not my responsibility at all; it is the responsibility of the miners and their leaders, from whom they receive subscriptions. All I say is that I do not think it is the duty of the Government to prevent anyone subscribing to the miners' funds. If the miners of Russia choose to do so, I cannot help it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain sums of money were offered by the Russian trade unions, and cheques were sent to the Trade Union Congress, but under the Emergency Regulations they were prevented from coming in?
Yes, I stopped £100,000. This sum of money is in a different position. I conceive it to be quite possible that the miners of Russia might desire that our mining strike here should be extended.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the people who made the collections which were not allowed to be received are the same people who have subscribed to this fund?
I think that is quite possible, but on the previous occasion the money I stopped was sent for the purpose of fomenting an illegal attack on the Constitution.
Did it come in as gold bullion or by telegraphic transfer?
It came in by telegraphic transfer from foreign banks to banks in this country.
Will that sum be liable to Income Tax?
I am afraid I must refer the hon. Member to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for an answer to that question.
May I ask whether this was a voluntary subscription by the workers, or were they compelled to subscribe?
I am afraid I have no information upon that point.
Poor Law Relief, Edmonton
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Edmonton Board of Guardians have paid relief at special rates to strikers' families during the recent general strike; and what steps he proposes to take to protect the ratepayers concerned?
I am in communication with the guardians upon the subject, and will inform my hon. and gallant Friend of the result.
Municipal Property (Propaganda)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that in the May Day celebrations in Hyde Park the vans and dust carts, the property of a London municipal authority, were used for propaganda purposes and advertising a journal known as "Lansbury's Weekly"; and whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent the use of the ratepayers' money for any kind of propaganda purposes?
I have no official information on this subject. If any expenditure for such a purpose is charged in the accounts of a Metropolitan Borough Council, it will come under the District Auditor's review at the audit, when there will be an opportunity for any ratepayers interested to raise objection
Does the right hon. Gentle man think that it is only a question of the expenditure which is involved in the use of the ratepayers' property for the purpose of advertising propaganda?
The question raised here is one which has been repeatedly raised in this House on previous occasions. My own personal view is that it is extremely improper that public money should be used for the purpose of political propaganda; but the answer I have given to my hon. Friend is intended to communicate to him the only way in which, as the law now stands, it would be possible to inflict any sort of penalty.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of my question, in which I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to take any action by legislation or otherwise to prevent this in future?
I have no such legislation under consideration at the moment.
Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that the municipal corporations are not entitled to do what they like with their own property paid for by the ratepayers? [HON. MEMBERS: "The ratepayers' property!"] I have said it is the ratepayers' property paid for by them.
Guardians and Trade Unions
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the decision of certain boards of guardians to compel all their employés to join trade unions; and under what authority such boards of guardians claim to deprive their employés of freedom of choice in the matter of joining a trade union?
Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether his attention has been called to the action of the Greenwich and Deptford Board of Guardians, who are reported to have issued an order requiring all their officers and employés to join the appropriate trade unions—
On a point of Order. I would like to submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that, a question having been called, it is not in order for another Member to rise to put a question which does not appear on the Order Paper.
It is quite in order.
I desire to ask the Minister whether he is aware that this board of guardians are reported to have issued an order to the effect that all their officers and employés are required to join the appropriate trade unions in or before the week ending on the 5th June, and that, in the case of those who do not do so, their engagements will be terminated? Is the Minister, further, aware that this action affects 780 employés and is ultra vires, and what steps does he propose to take?
In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend's question, I have seen in the Press a notice to the effect stated by him, but I have no official knowledge of it at present. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams), I am aware that decisions of this kind have been taken by certain boards of guardians, who, I understand, make this condition part of the terms on which officers are employed by them. The matter is at present receiving my attention.
"British Gazette" (Printing Facilities)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give the names of those newspapers which offered their premises and plant to print a Government newspaper during the strike before the "Morning Post" offer was accepted?
The "Morning Post" was the first to offer its premises and staff; but the "Daily Mail" and the "Daily Express" both placed their resources entirely at Government disposal, and many other leading newspapers, like the "Daily Telegraph,' were also willing to give whatever assistance was required. Others, again, were engaged in important and valuable productions of their own. But, apart from all volutary offers, the Government, of course, possessed, under the Emergency Regulations, full powers of requisition, which we used impartially wherever necessary.
Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that the "Luton News" also offered its services to the Government?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the first issue of the "British Gazette," page 1, column 6, line 33, which states that the owners have agreed to nearly everything recommended by the Commission; if so, will he state on whose authority that statement was made; and will he explain those recommendations that the coalowners have accepted and rejected?
A full statement of the attitude of the owners towards the various recommendations of the Commission was handed to the miners' representatives and was published in the Press on 3rd April, from which the hon. Member will be able to form his own opinion about the accuracy of the statement referred to. The statement referred to is a mere repetition of what I said myself without challenge in the House on the 3rd May.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that neither before the lock-out of the men nor since have the coalowners accepted a single recommendation of the Royal Commission which calls for sacrifices from them; and is not that misleading, was it not intended to mislead, and is that strictly in accordance with the right hon. Gentleman's conception of what should be a clean Press?
Is it not the fact that there was no lock-out?
I do not want to argue the coal dispute now on this question, but it is a fact that this article repeated with close accuracy statements which had been made without dispute in Parliament, and which for my own part I believe to be substantially fair and true.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a misstatement in the "British Gazette," it being that the owners have agreed to "nearly everything"; and will he say if there is any single recommendation in this Commission's Report to which the owners did not agree?
rose —
We cannot debate the matter.
I beg to give notice that I shall refer to this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Civil Service Unions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that on the morning of Saturday, 1st May, being the day before the general strike started, the Civil Service Clerical Association, the Association of Civil Service Sorting Assistants, and the Union of Post Office Workers notified the Trade Union Congress that they would, respectively, call a strike of their members whenever required By the Congress and would place their funds at the disposal of the Congress; what disciplinary action will be taken in the matter; and whether he will cease to recognise these bodies in dealing with questions affecting the Civil Service?
I am not at present in a position to add anything to the reply given to my hon. and learned Friend on the 13th May. The whole matter is receiving the close attention of His Majesty's Government.
In view of the gravity of this question, I beg to give notice that I shall draw attention to the matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Has the right hon. Gentleman ascertained that the unions referred to emphatically deny the allegations in this question, and will he take steps to defend civil servants from baseless charges of this kind?
I have said that the whole matter is receiving the close attention of His Majesty's Government. When that process is completed, a statement of the facts as known to the Government can, of course, be made to the House and to the public.
Is it not the fact that one of these societies, the Union of Post Office Workers, has been in close touch with Post Office administration all along to ensure an efficient service in the circumstances?
Assuming that these associations did not enter into the commitments referred to in the question, is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that, in a document dated the 4th May, a copy of which I sent to the Treasury, three members of the Civil Service issued a manifesto in favour of a general strike, addressed to all members of the Civil Service in the country, stating as a fact that these societies had entered into the commitments referred to in this question; and, if that be so, will he take steps against these three civil servants for disseminating false and seditious information?
I think the questions asked on both sides of the House show that the facts at present are in dispute. Let us ascertain what the facts are, and state what in our honest belief constitutes the true version of the facts, and then make whatever recommendations to Parliament we think best.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the General Council of the Trade Union Congress, of which I am a member, who knew all the proceedings from A to Z, never considered this question for one single minute?
Why not?
Because they had no intention of doing anything of the kind.
Imperial Airways
asked the Secretary of State for Air the total number of miles flown by machines under Imperial Airways during the period of the strike, together with the number of passengers and the amount of freight carried; and whether all passages were made without accident of any kind?
The answer to the first part of the question is 41,500 miles, 944 passengers and 70 tons of freight, including goods, mails, and passengers' luggage; and, to the second, that no accident of any kind occurred.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the Very efficient manner in which the telephone service was maintained during the general strike, he will say whether any additional arrangements were made in regard to staff by the London telephone service?
The only additional arrangements made in regard to the staffing of the London telephone service were the provision of special transport for those telephonists who could not otherwise have got to and from their work when the normal means of transport failed, and of sleeping accommodation at a few of the larger Exchanges. I should like to thank my hon. Friend for his complimentary reference to the work done by the telephone service during the general strike, and to say that the Postmaster-General is proud to record his appreciation of the way all ranks performed their duties under difficult conditions.
May I ask whether it is not the fact that the members of the Service mentioned in this question belong to the union mentioned just now by the hon. and learned Member for Moss Side (Mr. Hurst)?
Some of them do and some of them do not.
Will the Noble Lord convey to the staff the appreciation of this House of the loyal way in which the staff carried out their duties during the strike?
The Postmaster-General has already conveyed his thanks to the Service for what has been accomplished during that period.
Unemployment (Increase)
asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the increase in the number of unemployed since the general strike?
The latest available figure is that for 10th May, on which date the number registered at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 1,576,000, as compared with 981,877 on 26th April In addition to the figure given for 10th May, there were on that date notices of claims to benefit in respect of about 325,000 workers not at work in the mining industry on account of the dispute, and about 200,000 on strike in other industries. These form part of a larger number, the total of which cannot at present be accurately determined, not at work in the mining industry on account of the dispute or on strike in other industries, none of whom are included in the total of 1,576,000.
Am I right in assuming that the general strike has added 500,000 to the unemployed?
I think far more than that.
Can the hon. Gentleman state how this appalling distress has in any way helped the miners?
Working Days Lost
asked the Minister of Labour if he has made any estimate of the number of working days lost by persons who withdrew their labour in the coal-mining and in other industries, respectively, during the period 30th April to 17th May, inclusive; and the number of working days lost involuntarily during the same period by other persons?
The necessary material for making such an estimate is at present being collected, and it is hoped that it will be available by the middle of next month.
Will it be published in the "Labour Gazette"?
Probably it will.
Strike Sentences, Edinburgh
asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the nature of the sentences recently imposed in the Edinburgh Sheriff Court in connection with the strike, and will he reconsider these sentences, especially those where no violence or intimidation was alleged?
My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland proposes to obtain a return giving particulars of all these cases throughout Scotland. Until he has had an opportunity of considering the information so obtained, he is not in a position to decide as to any general action to be taken by him.
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman in mind the fact that a number of these people concerned found themselves in the Police Court for the first time because it was understood that peaceful picketing was permitted under the Emergency Regulations?
Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention been called to a statement made by the Home Secretary, in reply to a deputation of the Trade Union Congress; and, seeing that the functions of the Home Secretary in Scotland fall on the Secretary for Scotland, in any future action will he consult with the Home Secretary so that whatever is done may be uniform in character?
I understand that the action of the Home Secretary is in close correspondence with the action proposed by my right hon. Friend.
Will the hon. Member see that in other cases the action taken will be uniform in character with that taken by the Home Secretary in this country?
General Strike (Post Office Revenue)
asked the Postmaster-General if he can state approximately the effect of the general strike on the revenue, respectively, of the postal, telegraph, and telephone services?
I regret I cannot at present give even an approximate estimate of the financial effect of the general strike upon Post Office revenue.
Army Ordnance Factories
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that men employed in the ordnance factories are regarded as having discharged themselves if absent from work without leave for two consecutive days; that over 1,000 men in the Army ordnance services have been deprived of a week's wages although there is no signed agreement that one week's notice must be given; that in other departments over 8,000 men have received payment of wages due for the week's work previous to the dispute; will he explain why this discrimination has taken place in the case of the lowest paid workers; and will he take steps to remove this grievance by paying the amount due before the Whit-sun holidays?
There are two distinct classes of men involved—those in the Army Ordnance Department and those in the ordnance factories. The former have to give a week's notice to terminate their employment, and the latter can terminate it at notice sufficient to enable their pay sheets to be made up. In the former cases only a week's wages, as far as they had been earned, were withheld, but the Government has decided as an act of grace to pay the wages so withheld. All the men concerned returned to work at the first call on the 12th May before the general strike was called off.
Can the hon. and gallant Member tell me when this rule was made or published?
It is well understood. The test is that, if a man is summarily dismissed without reason, he has a claim against the Government for a week's wages in lieu of notice, and the converse holds good in regard to the men.
Can the hon. and gallant Member tell me whether there is any document or circular or settled rule which has been issued so that the men in the Arsenal may know it?
I am speaking of the Ordnance Department. It is in the ordinary terms of their engagement. I will let the hon. Member have the details if he requires them.
Does that apply to the small arms factory at Enfield also?
I shall require notice of that question. There are different forms of engagement. Some of the men are on terms of a week's notice, and the others, the general labourers in the ordnance factories are employed practically from day to day and can leave as soon as their pay sheets are made up.
Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that an undertaking was given to the men in the small arms factory that if they returned on Wednesday they would not be penalised in any way?
That is what I have said: they are not being penalised.
further asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the men in ordnance factories have not signed any agreement and know of no such rule to give one week's notice before stopping work; that there is a rule that, if men absent themselves from work for two consecutive days, they are regarded as having discharged themselves; will he explain why the inspection department (inspection of naval ordnance) have stopped two days' pay, while the naval ordnance department have stopped a full week's pay; and will he state the reason why this discrimination against the lowest paid men has taken place while over 8,000 men in the ordnance factories have been paid for all the time that they worked before the stoppage took place?
The Statements in the question are not quite in accordance with the facts. Where the Regulations under which the men of the various Departments are serving require a number of days notice to be given before men can take their discharge that number of days' pay was withheld from the men who were absent without leave. This money will, as an act of grace and without prejudice, be paid to the men serving under the Admiralty at Woolwich at the next regular pay day.
When will that be?
I will find out.
As it is possible that these men may want to go away on holiday, could they not have the money by to-morrow?
I will see what can be done about it.
Questions
Municipal Franchise (Mercantile Companies)
asked the Home Secretary the attitude of the Government in regard to the recent deputation urging the need for legislation which will give to mercantile companies and corporations the right to vote in municipal elections?
The Government have not yet had an opportunity of considering the matter.
Backwaed Children (Education)
asked the President of the Board of Education what arrangements now exist for the education of semi-mentally deficient children in England and Wales?
My right hon. Friend assumes that the hon. Member is referring to the children who are educationally retarded, but are not certifiable as mentally defective. Provision is made by an increasing number of local education authorities for the education of such dull and backward children in special classes on the general lines indicated in paragraph 14 of Circular 1341, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
Housing
Overcrowding
asked the Minister of Health whether any condition as to overcrowding attaches to subsidy houses, tenancies or purchasers; whether he proposes taking any steps to avoid such overcrowding; and whether he Has any statistics or can give any estimate as to overcrowding in any such post-War houses?
No general statutory condition as to overcrowding attaches to the grant of subsidy under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924, but local authorities may, with my approval, impose conditions, and I have no doubt that local authorities administering housing schemes are fully alive to the importance of taking all possible steps under their general statutory powers and otherwise to prevent; the occurrence of overcrowding in houses under their control. I have no information which would enable me to reply to the last part of my Noble Friend's question.
Erith
asked the Minister of Health what action has been taken by his Department to deal with the housing shortage within the area of the Erith District Council?
I have approved proposals submitted by the district council for the erection of 230 houses under the Housing Acts, 1923 and 1924. Contracts have been entered into for 126 of these houses and 54 of these have been completed: the remaining 104 were approved as recently as the 29th April. Proposals for the grant of assistance in respect of 68 houses to be erected by private enterprise have also been approved.
Miners' Houses
asked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to bring in a Bill to extend Section 2 of the Housing Act, 1925, and the corresponding Scottish enactment, to houses occupied by miners in part remuneration for their work?
Similar proposals to those suggested by the hon. Member were discussed during the passage through this House of the Housing, Etc. Act, 1923. As I then pointed out, I consider that the powers contained in Section 3 of the Housing Act, 1925, offer a more effective method of securing the object desired.
In considering the proposals that are going forward will it not be desirable to keep in view the suggestion contained in my question in any legislation that may be introduced affecting the miners?
If the statement made by the hon. Member be well founded, then the most effective method of achieving what he wants is by means of a Section that exists in the Act of 1925, and that is, I think, more effective than what he proposes.
Questions
Offices (Sanitary Inspection)
asked the Minister of Health whether the attention of local authorities has been directed by his Department to the judgment in the case of Bennett v. Harding (1900) as to their power to inspect offices and insist on their sanitary condition; and, if not, whether he will consider the desirability of doing so?
Yes, Sir; the attention of local authorities was drawn to this judgment in a Home Office Memorandum of 1912. The judgment does not expressly refer to offices, and it may be well to have a test case to make the position clear.
Is there an attempt being made to smoke out this House?
I fancy it is something that has happened on the river.
Vagrants
asked the Minister of Health whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent the swelling of the number of vagrants by men displaced from industry on the lines proposed by the Bishop of Exeter with regard to vagrancy reforms?
The available information does not support the view that there is at present any unusual increase in the number of vagrants. The question of this branch of administration is being considered, with other aspects of the Poor Law reform proposals.
Spending Departments (Rationing)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received any representations urging the Government to inquire into the possibility of a system of strict rationing of all spending Departments as a means of relieving the strain on the present financial position; and whether he will state the attitude of the Government in regard to this matter?
As I have frequently stated, His Majesty's Government have explored, and are continuing to explore, all possible avenues of economy. Departments are already rationed in the sense that they are restricted to the Estimates voted by Parliament. I do not feel sure what the hon. Member means by "rationing"; but, if he means that all Departments should have their expenditure reduced by a fixed percentage, I think reflection will convince him that this is impossible.
Would my right hon. Friend say which is the best way of exploring an avenue of economy?
We made one determined effort to progress along one of those avenues before the introduction of the Budget.
Government Staffs (Overseas Ex-Service Men)
24 and 25.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (1) whether he is aware that Government staffs when reducing temporary staff treat ex-service men who served overseas after the date of the Armistice as on an equal footing with men who did not serve overseas at any time; and, if so, whether he is prepared to take steps to have these men treated as overseas ex-service men, provided their discharge papers show that they served overseas on active service;
(2), whether he is aware that ex-regular soldiers who served overseas before the Great War and were retained in this country for the purpose of training the new armies are now being dismissed from Government Departments as home service men; and if he is prepared to take steps to ensure that as far as possible these long-service men are retained in employment?
So far as concerns the preference given to ex-service men as regards retention in temporary posts in the Civil Service, to which reference was made in my reply to the hon. Member's question of the 3rd May, it is the practice of the Joint Substitution Board of the Treasury and Ministry of Labour to regard as "overseas service," not only service rendered overseas between the 4th August, 1914 and the 11th November, 1918, inclusive, but also service rendered overseas in any campaign, whether before the outbreak of War in August, 1914, or after the Armistice. I see no reason for any modification of this practice.
Home-Grown Beet Molasses (Excise Duty)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of the Excise Duty which has been received from home-grown beet sugar factories during the last season on molasses containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter; on molasses containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent.; on molasses containing 50 per cent. and not less than 45 per cent.; and on molasses containing less than 45 per cent.?
With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following are the figures promised:
The amount of Excise Duty collected up to the end of April, 1926, on molasses manufactured from home-grown beet during last season, was as follows:
£ Containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter Nil. Containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter 17 Containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter 2 £19
Molasses containing less than 45 per cent. of sweetening matter is not separately distinguished for purposes of Excise Duty.
Plebs League (Correspondence)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters are being delivered to the Plebs League, 162, Buckingham Palace Road, opened; and whether, if it is considered necessary to have examined the letters of this purely educational labour organisation, he will give instructions that the letters should be closed in some proper manner and not merely delivered with slit envelopes?
I have been asked to reply. It would be contrary to the public interest to give information about any exercise of my powers in connection with the post.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it contrary to-the public interest to have letters delivered with their contents bulging out, and no attempt made to close them properly after they have been opened by his Department?
Certainly not. If the hon. Lady will give me any correspondence which has been opened and delivered in the way she suggests, I will cause inquiry to be made, and if the correspondence was directed to her personally I need hardly say she need only send the envelopes.
Is it a fact that none of us have any guarantee that letters sent through the post may not be opened?
I think anyone who has a good conscience may rest satisfied that he is in no danger.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I myself received a letter addressed to the House of Commons the other day, marked "via Siberia," which had been opened?
It may have been opened in Siberia.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only way to have a clear conscience in the House is to have no opinion at all, or to side with him?
That may be so.
Kenya
Dr. Norman Leys' Book
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a book called "Kenya," by Dr. Norman Leys, is adversely referred to in Command Paper 2629; whether the Government accepts responsibility for this attack; and, if so, will he state which specific statements in that book, relative to the subject of the Command Paper, are alleged in any way to be inaccurate?
The Command Paper contains no adverse reference to the book "Kenya" except in regard to a quotation on page 157, from a letter to the "East African Standard," in which a person identified in the index as Lord Delamere was accused of dummying, that is, of obtaining an undue amount of land by the use of other people's names. The charge was quoted by Lord Olivier in another place, and the publication of the paper is the result. There has been no attack on Dr. Leys' book, but as regards Government responsibility I am glad to have the opportunity of saying that in my opinion there is no foundation whatever for the accusation against Lord Delamere which Dr. Leys has been ill-advised enough to resuscitate in his book.
Is it not a very dangerous precedent for the Government to come to an almost judicial decision on the question of the evidence put forward by Doctor Leys without giving the man who is being charged with inaccuracy the opportunity of appearing in any way before the Commission?
I think there is no necessity in that case. Doctor Leys re-published, apparently, without any investigation, a false charge made in a newspaper some time before—a false charge investigated by the Government and found to be false.
Is it proposed to take action in the Courts?
It is not necessary for the Government, when false statements have been made which affect the action of a Government Department, in every case to bring an action against the person con- cerned. It is enough for the Government to express its own view that the charges were inaccurate.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that if there were a case for a legal action Lord Delamere was in a position to take it, and is the Government justified in taking the responsibility off Lord Delamere and bringing forward this ex parte report without any evidence being taken from the other party to the dispute?
I really think the right hon. Gentleman misunderstands the position. Lord Delamere's freedom to bring any action he likes is in no way affected. All that has happened is that the Government has expressed its opinion, after examining the Report, that, as far as the Government is concerned, there is no substantiation of the charge in Lord Delamere's case.
Is it not the case that a, reflection on Government administration is implied in these charges and that it is clearing itself?
Land Grants
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the various areas set forth on page 6 of Command Paper 2629 as having been acquired by Lord Delamere with the Government's approval (in addition to his original grant of 100,000 acres), during the three years immediately following that original acquisition, were acquired in accordance with, or contrary to, the terms of the Crown Lands Ordinance then in force?
There was nothing in these acquisitions contrary to the Crown Lands Ordinance then in force. The Secretary of State had decided that grants raising any person's total holding beyond 1,000 acres freehold or 10,000 acres freehold and leasehold combined, should not be made without reference to him, and it was therefore necessary in 1906 that this sanction should be obtained to the transfer, arranged but not yet sanctioned, which are referred to on page 6 of the White Paper.
Would it not be a good thing if a great many Lord Delameres could be found to develop the British Empire?
Questions
Empire Settlement
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of the fact that there are 500 families and 12,000 individuals accepted for assisted passages to Australia and awaiting shipment, he has satisfied himself that there is enough tonnage at the disposal of the companies concerned to enable them to sail with the minimum amount of delay?
The total number of persons who have been accepted for the grant of assisted passages to Australia and who have not yet sailed is 4,607, composed of 1,080 single persons and 3,527 members of families. I understand that the available tonnage is sufficient to enable all these persons to sail without undue delay.
What is the reason these people cannot be sent after they have been accepted?
There are a good many administrative delays of one sort or another. I imagine they are going to get away in the next few weeks.
Would it not be possible, if there is any delay, to make use of some of the £3,000,000 grant to assist emigration to help them to get away more quickly?
These are people who are being assisted out of the grant.
Is it not the case that these emigrants were held up owing to the shipping strike? I know those who went from Argyllshire were held up.
Press Telegrams
asked the Postmaster-General what is the amount of revenue derived annually from Press telegrams, and what is the amount of expense entailed in connection with such telegrams?
The revenue from Press telegrams in 1925–26 was £84,000, and the expenditure involved is roughly calculated to be in the neighbourhood of £330,000.
Will the Noble Lord consider whether, if savings were made by Press telegrams being put on a paying basis, he could utilise them towards the setting up of an agricultural parcels post?
That does not arise.
News (Broadcasting)
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the benefits, especially to rural districts, of the service of broadcast news during the strike, he will consider, in the coming revision of the powers possessed by the Broadcasting Company, the desirability of recommending a more general distribution of news bulletins at fixed hours of the day?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to a similar question by the hon. Member for Blackburn.
Turkey and Iraq (Boundary)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make any statement as to the progress of the negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the Turkish Republic in regard to the settlement of the boundary question between Turkey and Iraq; and whether he is aware that, just as soon as there is any definite indication of a satisfactory arrangement being arrived at, there are many British firms, long associated with Turkey, ready to co-operate with that country in its development?
As regards the first part of the question, I have as yet nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on the 29th April. As regards the second part of the question, I readily accept the assurance of my hon. and gallant Friend.
Disarmament Conference
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the instructions given to the representative of this country at the preparatory conference on disarmament now sitting at Geneva in connection with the League of Nations?
I regret that I do not feel able to comply with the hon. Member's request. Publication at this stage of the instructions referred to would be likely to hamper rather than help the work of the British representative, and so militate against the success of the conference.
Loss of His Majesty's Ship "Hampshire."
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is now intended to publish any statement regarding the loss of His Majesty's Ship "Hampshire"?
This question is receiving consideration.
Necessitous Areas (Goschen Report)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health how soon the Report of Sir Harry Goschen's Departmental Committee on Grants-in-Aid to Necessitous Areas will be available for Members?
This question only reached me by this morning's post. The Report would have been published last week but for the strike of printers. I hope it will be available shortly.
Questions to Ministers
On a point of Order. Are we not to have a second round of the questions?
It is not the practice to have a second round when the House meets at Eleven o'Clock.
Railway Accident (Edinburgh)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the protest of the Edinburgh railway men against the allegations of the Superintendent of the London, and North Eastern Railway respecting the callous behaviour of the railway men on the occasion of the accident 10 days ago at St. Margarets, and whether he has considered their request for a public inquiry?
Perhaps the hon. Member will take opportunity in the Debate later on to put his question.
On a point of Order I understand that part of the Adjournment is to be taken up debating the question raised by my hon. Friend, and the question of victimisation of workers. Is that to be the case? If so, can we know when the Debate is likely to take place?
I understand that that will be taken as part of the Debate after three o'clock.
Will there be some representative of the Scottish Office here this afternoon, in order that I may get a reply to my question, which is considered a very urgent one by the railway men of Edinburgh?
I must apologise to the House. I had no idea that there was any further question for me to answer, and I had left the House to attend an important Departmental Committee. I had no idea that the hon. Member was going to ask a question. I shall be very glad to give him any information in my power.
I put in this Private Notice question yesterday, in good time. I am sorry to hear that the hon. and gallant Member has not received a copy of it.
I have received no copy of any Private Notice question.
Business of the House
Can the Prime Minister state what business the Government propose to take when the House resumes after the Whitsuntide Recess?
On Tuesday, 1st June, the business will be, Supply; Committee—Ministry of Labour Vote.
Wednesday, Supply; Committee—Home Office Vote.
Thursday, Rating (Scotland) Bill; Second Reading; Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill; Consideration of Lords Amendments; Law of Property (Amendment) Bill; Report and Third Reading, and other Orders on the Paper
Friday, the business will be announced later.
Is it understood that in the event of no settlement having been reached in the mining situation, the business of the House on the opening day can be changed so that that may be made the subject of discussion?
We will certainly make arrangement for such Supply being taken on that day, so that a discussion can take place, if desired.
Resolved, "That the Proceedings on the Finance Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Adjournment of the House (Whitsuntide)
Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 1st June."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Orders of the Day
Finance Bill
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [ 19th May ] "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Which Amendment was to leave out the word now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words, "upon this day six months."
Question again proposed, "That the word "now" stand part of the Question."
I do not rise this afternoon to discuss the many and varied proposals contained in this Finance Bill. My main object is to enter my protest again against the passing into law of this thing of shreds and patches, a Measure which in my opinion is about the most iniquitous piece of legislative confiscation that this House has ever been asked to consider. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has occupied and played many roles in his time, and now he appears to have assumed the role of a political Autolycus. Apparently he is copying the methods of that historical individual, who was "a picker-up of un-considered trifles"—those little trifles which people unconsciously lay aside with every confidence that nobody will ever touch them. To this role he seems, however, to have added the profession of a political cat burglar, and he has climbed up spouts and entered windows in order to confiscate and purloin the heritage left by his predecessors in office. He has also interfered with ladies' wardrobes. But these practices did not commence with this year's Budget. If you go further back you will find that in his previous Budget the right hon. Gentleman undertook the dangerous experiment of toying with ladies' underwear, and ended with the absurdity of a tax on paper bags.
He then travelled from those topics to the question of unemployment. The legislation of the present Government has had a most demoralising effect on the youth of this land, particularly on the youth of the working classes. The iniquitous policy of restricting unemployment benefit has entirely demoralised the young people of the country who hitherto have been blameless in character. Suddenly and without warning, the Government deprived these young men of their unemployment benefit, and it was done by the right hon. Gentleman in order to cover up the tracks of his previous indiscretions. The result has been that the younger members of the family have been thrown out of work and have become spongers on their parents. I could give the right hon. Gentleman many cases to bear out this statement, and also many cases in which young men have been committed to prison for some act against the law which they did in real desperation owing to the situation in which they found themselves through the action of the Government. I know it will be said that the right hon. Gentleman did not take any part in the Debates and discussions on the Unemployment Insurance Bill, but, although the voice and hand of Esau were not visible, they were exceedingly prominent. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman has proposed a "sop to Cerberus." He has made provision for pensions for widows and orphans, but as there is stated to be a million surplus women as long as they live they will be compelled to contribute towards this pension, but will never be in the happy position of being able to qualify for a, pension at all.
Then there is the iniquitous Betting Duty. It is said that open confession is good for the soul. Well, I have myself an occasional annual flutter, but if I sin at all in this respect my excuse is that I sin in the company of the most exalted in the land. But that is a voluntary and an individual act. The right hon. Gentleman now proposes to make that act an actual living legal thing. There are what are called "places within the meaning of the Act," though there is some doubt as to what they really are. The right hon. Gentleman, however, makes it quite certain what they are and where they are; he emphasises the fact so that there will be no doubt about it in the future. I have sat through these Debates with as much patience as the circumstances permitted, seeing these various raids made here and there. But the most iniquitous of the whole lot, and the most despicable is the proposal to pinch the l½d. of the dead soldier. That is about as mean an act as anyone could imagine. It is about as mean an act as I have ever heard. The right hon. Gentleman, with characteristic ingenuity, has endeavoured to convince his colleagues in the Cabinet of the morality of this proceeding, but it is a strange thing that a Government which, during the late unfortunate struggle between labour and capital, claimed to have acted with strength and courage, should descend to an association with the bookie. I cannot compliment either the right hon. Gentlemen or the Government, and I warn him against the folly of seeking the bubble reputation at the cannon's mouth. He may fool some of the people some of the time, or most of the people most of the time, but not all the people all the time.
I do not propose to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken, except in regard to the question of the payment of unemployment benefit to young persons. He said that those who were paying contributions were being denied the benefits to which they are entitled. The withdrawal in the case of young persons only applies to extended benefit —[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and it also only applies in those cases where it can be clearly shown that no hardship is involved in the withdrawal of benefit. I have some knowledge of the affairs of the Ministry of Labour, and if the hon. Member knows of any cases where these two conditions are not complied with and will send them on to me, I will have them investigated by the Ministry of Labour and see whether they can be put right. I want to say a word or two in connection with the very interesting and informing speech made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman). I welcome especially the note of robust optimism that characterised the utterance. It is all the more necessary in these days that we should not cry down our own credit. Last autumn I found myself in the United States and for a little time in Canada, and owing to some unfortunate statements on the part of certain sections of the Press it was thought that this country was really down and out.
12 N.
I came across statements such as this in a very reputable magazine—that when the writer was in England in 1921 he found that 80 per cent, of the working classes were on what he called the dole. The actual facts were, of course, that at the time only 20 per cent, were on the dole and 80 per cent, were not. When one finds statements of that sort spread about in responsible organs, one is the more glad to know that during the recent industrial trouble here not only could the pound look the dollar in the face, but it was worth more than the dollar. One reason for that extraordinary event taking place immediately after the greatest dislocation of trade and industry that has ever been inflicted on this country, was the action of my right hon. Friend in his Budget in increasing the Sinking Fund from its already very high sum of £50,000,000 a year by an extra £10,000,000 in the year under review, because last year he had to raid the Sinking Fund to the extent of £10,000,000. It speaks volumes for British credit and finance that we should be able to increase our Sinking Fund without any large increase of taxation, for the Betting Duty is practically the only extra tax to be imposed by this Finance Bill.
Let me refer to a point which has been dwelt upon on more than one occasion in this House. Any large reductions in taxation in the near future are extremely difficult with regard to all the spending Departments. No one can sit for hours-each week on the Public Accounts Committee or Estimates Committee without realising the impossibility of big reductions in expenditure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us last year that he hoped to make a cut to the extent of £10,000,000. My recollection is that he has not quite succeeded. The late Financial Secretary to the Treasury spoke last night of £5,000,000 a year reduction in each of the next three years on the fighting services. I hope that some such economy may be possible. Incidentally, we shall save a certain amount on our Civil Service Vote if the cost of living continues to go down, because every five points drop in the cost of living index figure involves an automatic reduction in the CiVil Service Vote or from £1,000,000 to £1,250,000. A very considerable sum would thus be saved. The cost of living is now at its lowest point for nine years, and that fact, I think, is very largely owing to our return to the gold standard.
On this question of large savings in the future it has to be remembered that close on £3,000,000,000 can be repaid between now and 1929. The United States have recently been able to borrow at 3¾per cent. Their taxation is far less than the taxation in this country. I am optimistic enough to think that if we continue as we are doing, we shall be able to borrow in 1929, or soon after, at a rate not greatly exceeding 4 per cent., instead of the 5 per cent, which we are now paying on the average for moneys borrowed during the War. I agree that a certain amount of that is lost, because Income Tax is taken at 4s. in the £. But that means a reduction in our national expenditure of over £20,000,000 from 1929 onwards, or soon after 1929. That is a very good reason for being extremely Conservative, not only in the political but in the financial sense in the years between now and 1929. I support most heartily the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in not making small reductions of taxation this year, but rather making us pay an extra £10,000,000 towards the Sinking Fund.
The next point with which I wish to deal relates to Imperial Preference. For many years I was engaged in the marketing of Dominion produce in this country, and I welcome most heartily what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done in promising, in so*far as any one Parliament can bind its successor, to continue the system of Imperial Preference for a term of years. When the Labour party were in office the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), then Chancellor of the Exchequer, was large-minded enough, although it may be that he did not agree with Preference, to allow the Measure then on the Statute Book to continue in operation. I hope that that may be the attitude of the Labour party if at any future time they again find themselves in office. Not only as regards those who handle Dominion goods here, but also as regards the consumer in Australia, the Preferences are invaluable. I do not think anyone can have been engaged in Dominion business, especially with Australia or New Zealand, without realising the immense difficulties which the geographical situation of the Dominions causes to those who try to deal with Dominion wares. You have not only to create your market here, but you have to get your supplies from a relatively small source at the other end of the world. I would refer to one par- ticular case of a Preference given a year ago to a certain article of Colonial produce, namely, Australian wine. That Preference has meant that the demand has so much increased, that it is not now possible to get over sufficient supplies to cope with the demand in this country. Dominion producers are naturally getting busy and they hope to have adequate supplies in the course of the next two or three years. But they will not do that unless there is a reasonable measure of surety that when they have the supplies ready there will still be the same Preference given.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us to understand that he was examining very carefully the question of motor taxation, and whether or not it was possible to substitute for the present very unsatisfactory tax, which leads to many difficulties in the making of cars and especially with regard to foreign markets —to substitute for that a petrol tax Which would fall directly on the user and would not penalise those who use their cars only at week-ends by making them pay exactly the same tax as those who are free to motor on seven days of the week. On 31st March, 1924, this House passed unanimously a Resolution, which I had the honour to move, in favour of the substitution of a petrol tax for the present tax. My right hon. Friend was not with us at that time, but he will find the Debate reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The difficulties which were then urged can be overcome, I think. In the two years that have passed since we last discussed the question, I understand that almost all the States of the United States have adopted a petrol tax. Motoring is, of course, on an infinitely larger scale there than it is here, but what can be done in the United States can certainly be done here.
I want to draw my right hon. Friend's attention to two sources from which I think extra money can legitimately be obtained. I do not want to labour the case with regard to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. We all know that taxation there is less than it is here, and that the Atholl Committee has done what it could to make the Channel Islands realise their responsibility to this country. We know that there was a Statute passed even before the days of Queen Anne—I think it was in the days of Queen Elizabeth—giving the Channel Islands freedom for all time from our taxation. But hundreds of years have passed since then, and I think that pressure might now be brought to bear on the Channel Island authorities to reconsider the question. I am not for a moment suggesting that they should pay the same heavy taxation as we are bearing. It is obvious that they do not enjoy some of our social services, Unemployment Insurance for instance. But Income Tax there at 6d. to a Is. in the pound does not seem to be a fair contribution. Then there is the question of tax evasion, to which attention has recently been directed. That sort of thing will develop possibly, because of the advertisement given to a recent case.
A system of insurance has recently sprung up—what are known as single premium policies. It is really only of value to the wealthy classes. It was dealt with at length in the Insurance Supplement of the "Times" on 28th April. There it was shown how individuals can, at the age of 40, pay a lump sum of £8,000 to an insurance company as one premium, and then can borrow 95 per cent, of the interest they have to pay to the insurance company. Under the present law that interest is not liable to Super-tax, and exemptions are also given with regard to Income Tax, and the net result is that the individual concerned gets back the whole of his capital and what is equal to the interest payments accumulated at the rate of 7¼ per cent. compound interest, allowing for remission of taxes. This works out at close on 12 per cent, gross. I gather that this is being done to a large extent by certain companies, but that others do not like to issue such policies because they feel that the system is purely an evasion of taxation. I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention has already been called to this matter, and I would urge upon him that between now and the introduction of the next Finance Bill he should take steps to find out whether this sort of thing is being done on a large scale, and, if so, that he should stop it, for it is grossly unfair.
The hon. Member has dealt in a very cogent way with two or three very important matters. Before I sit down I hope to be able to make some reference to the matters which he pre- sented. I was a little pained last night by the statement of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that he was deeply disappointed at the moderation of the opposition in this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman evidently expected a more vigorous and robust attack on the Bill. If the Financial Secretary had been present now I would have given him an assurance that before the end of the Committee stage of the Bill he will be provided with quite as much criticism of an active and penetrating character as he could possibly desire. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he, too, agrees that the Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill has from these benches been of a rather moderate character, will not deem that as evidence that we support his view that this is the most acceptable Budget in the experience of the right hon. Gentleman. My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) who moved the rejection of this Bill, did so in a speech which was not critical but helpful and useful, and I think the reason why my right hon. Friend adopted that line was because of a sort of sympathy with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the pitiable and pathetic position into which the right hon. Gentleman has got himself. My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh has the kindest of hearts and he could not find it in his heart to say any hard things. I would like to repair the omission, but I have a very limited command of vituperative language and I am afraid I exhausted my vocabulary of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer calls "Parliamentary Billingsgate "—and the right hon. Gentleman is certainly an authority on "Parliamentary Billingsgate"—in the general Debate upon the Budget.
The Financial Secretary said that although we had moved an Amendment for the rejection of the Bill, we had put forward no reasonable ground why the House should approve of our Amendment. We made our position and our attitude on the proposals of this Bill quite clear in the general Debate on the Budget. As the Financial Secretary said last night, the Second Reading of the Finance Bill is not an occasion for detailed criticism but rather for the expression of opinions of a more general character. The Debate yesterday ranged over a wide field, including the state of trade, credit, and many other matters, some of which, perhaps, had no very direct reference to the subject matter of and the provisions embodied in this Bill. I shall follow the example of my right hon. Friend who moved the rejection by not going into any details in regard to the taxation proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There will be numerous opportunities of doing so during the Committee stage of the Bill. But the Financial Secretary asked last night why my right hon. Friend had offered no reasons for the rejection of this Bill. I will endeavour to explain.
In the first place, we are moving the rejection of this Bill, because it proposes an expenditure which, in our opinion, is not merely excessive but is to be employed to a very great extent for unremunerativo purposes. The Financial Secretary asked for a definite answer to the question as to what was the attitude and position of the party with which I am associated in regard to national expenditure. I am afraid the many attempts which we have made, not only recently, but in days gone by, to make clear to the House of Commons our attitude on national expenditure have not been very successful if the Financial Secretary still remains ignorant of what that attitude is. We are opposed to all unnecessary and unremunerative expenditure. We are in favour of a generous policy towards, and an extension of, the necessary useful and remunerative services. Our criticism of the proposed expenditure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, as I said a moment ago, because a very large part o? it is to be employed in unremunerative ways.
The Financial Secretary also said last night that if we were in the position of right hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite, high as national expenditure is, it might be expected to be very much higher under the control of a Labour Government. What are the facts? We had a very short term of office, and in our financial policy there is no justification whatever for the statement made by the Financial Secretary last night. The right hon. Gentleman has been in office about 18 months. This is the second Budget he has presented to the House of Commons, and in that short time he has succeeded in rais- ing the national expenditure by £30,000,000 a year. He may say that a considerable part of that increase is accounted for by the cost of the coal mining subsidy, but the cost of that subsidy is a part of the policy of the Government. The Government are responsible for that expenditure. It is the inability of the Government to deal with the coal mining problem which has led them into this wasteful, extravagant and unnecessary expenditure. I have never changed my views about this matter. In my view there could only have been one justification for that subsidy, and it is this, that the nine months during which that subsidy was being paid were actively employed by the Government to secure such a reorganisation of the coal mining industry as would place that industry on a sound economic footing. Our criticism of the Government is that they did not employ those months to that purpose. At the end of nine months the position was worse than it was at the end of July last when that subsidy was proposed, therefore every penny of that £24,000,000 has been worse than wasted by the Government.
We have just passed through an industrial upheaval which has been deplorable. This is not the time nor the opportunity to discuss that subject, but I may not be out of order if I refer to it in relation to its effect upon national expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) gave us an approximate estimate yesterday of the national cost of the fortnight's stoppage. It is impossible to estimate what the cost will be. I have very often expressed my views about strikes and lockouts. I have often incurred temporary unpopularity among my own friends by the expression of those views. I think that industrial disputes leading to a stoppage of work are a barbarous method of trying to deal with industrial matters. Lock-outs and strikes seldom or never serve any useful purpose. The greatest triumphs that trade unionism has won—and great indeed is the record of its beneficial achievements—have been won by negotiation and conciliation. But much as I regret the recent dispute, I am convinced that when the public of this country, free from the passions which have been aroused, calmly review the circumstances which led up to that dispute, the greater part of the blame and the responsibility for it will be laid upon the shoulders of the Government.
For nine months they did nothing. It was only after the strike that the Government framed proposals for a settlement for the consideration of the mineowners and the men. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman cannot make the excuse that the financial embarrassment in which he finds himself is due to something over which he and his colleagues are the Government had no control and for which they had no responsibility. Therefore, the first reason why we ask the House to reject this Bill is because of its enormous expenditure, which is £30,000,000 more than the sum for which the Labour Government asked the House of Commons only two years ago. The Financial Secretary said last night that, though a Tory Government may beat the taxpayer with whips, a Labour Government would beat them with scorpions. It is exactly the other way about. There are no fewer than 30,000,000 extra tails upon the whip with which the taxpayer is being beaten to-day than was the case under the Labour Government only two years ago.
I turn for a moment to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for East Lewisham (Lieut.-Colonel Pownall), and I agree with much of what he said in regard to the difficulties of reducing national expenditure. Perhaps it is easier, from an administrative point of view, to reduce expenditure upon the fighting Services than in any other Department of State expenditure. My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh, who moved the rejection of this Bill, made certain suggestions. He pointed out that there is not at the present time any effective Parliamentary control over expenditure, but I will go further than that, and say that there is no Parliamentary control over expenditure. I do not know that I ought to make this confession, but, as a matter of fact, there is very little Treasury control over expenditure. In a general way the Treasury can exercise control, but over details, no. The Chancellor of the Exchequer agrees with me.
No, I think it is the other way about.
The Treasury cannot go into every item of detailed expendi- ture which is submitted in the Estimates of the respective Departments. That is what I mean, and with that, I am sure, the right hon. Gentleman agrees. I think the suggestions that were made yesterday by my right hon. Friend may in some form be adopted, and, if adopted, I think they will work very usefully. I do not know whether it could be done exactly in the form he suggested, namely, by putting two or three persons into every Department, permanently, in order to go into the details of every item of: expenditure, but something of the sort will have to be done if the waste which, undoubtedly exists in small matters, in. innumerable cases—and in the aggregate the expenditure is very high—is to be avoided. That is the first reason for asking the House to reject the Second-Reading of this Bill.
The next reason is that this Bill does nothing whatever to deal with the existing inequalities and injustices of taxation. The unfair burden on the mass of the people still remains and, indeed, is increased by the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Under successive-Tory Administrations during the last-four or five years, there has been no reduction of indirect taxation, except the reduction in the Tea Duty made about three years ago and the reduction in the Beer Duty made by the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. But in every Budget, except this, submitted by a Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer, there have been substantial reductions in direct taxation, that is, in the taxation of that class of people who are best able, by virtue of their means, to bear a heavy burden of taxation. The proposals of this Bill do nothing at all to relieve the burden upon industry. At the last elections and in this House innumerable speeches have been made by hon. Members. opposite and their predecessors on those benches in which the demand has been put forward for a relief of the burden upon industry. Heavy taxation, they have said, is preventing the revival of trade. Now what does this Bill do, and what is the Chancellor of the Exchequer doing, to lighten the burden upon industry? He is doing absolutely nothing in this Bill; as a matter of fact, he is increasing the burden upon industry. He proposes increased taxation on commercial vehicles. There may be something to be said for it—I think there is much to be said for it—but whatever there may be said for it, the fact remains that it is going to increase the burden upon industry. There might be a good deal to be said for it, if at the same time the Chancellor of the Exchequer were in other directions lightening the burden upon industry. That is the second reason why we ask the House of Commons to reject this Bill. The Financial Secretary was not present when I referred to the criticism he made last night that no reasons had been given in support of our Amendment for the rejection of this Bill, and I may tell him I am dealing with that criticism now.
Before saying a word or two about the different proposals in this Bill, I would refer to another matter that was raised by my right hon. Friend in his speech yesterday, when he was dealing with Income Tax reform. My right hon. Friend then pointed out that all the recommendations of the Royal Commission upon Income Tax which involved a loss of revenue had been adopted by successive Governments, but not one, I believe he said, of the recommendations suggested by that Commission which would have given the Treasury more revenue had been carried into effect. My right hon. Friend referred, in particular, to that recommendation of the Royal Commission in regard to the assessment of the profits on agriculture. This is an old question in this House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) will still remember that in the far-away days loefore the War, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, I often raised this matter. In those days, I believe, the farmers' assessment to Income Tax was upon one-half of the rent they paid, but there have been successive changes, and the agriculturist at the present time has the option of paying Income Tax, I believe, upon the amount of his rent, or he may be assessed under Schedule D.
I hope the Financial Secretary will make many more speeches during the Committee stage of this Bill of the nature of the one with which he enlivened our proceedings last night. If he does, great as is his popularity in the House at the present time, I am quite sure that he will add very considerably to it, and he will at the same time greatly enliven the proceedings of this Assembly and add to its gaiety. What did the right hon. Gentleman say in reply to my right hon. Friend's demand that the agriculturist should be assessed to Income Tax, as every other person in the country who makes profits upon trade or industry is assessed? The right hon. Gentleman said: "Did the right hon. Gentleman want the farmers to pay more?"
Hear, hear!
The right hon. Gentleman says, "Hear, hear!" Of course, my right hon. Friend wants the farmer to pay more, but surely it is a curious argument from a Financial Secretary to the Treasury to object to a proposal because it is going to bring in more revenue. He never advanced a single reason why a farmer who makes profits should not be assessed, like everybody else, upon the exact amount of the profits that he makes. The right hon. Gentleman said that agriculture is already over-burdened. That is a somewhat different question, but as a matter of fact it is not true; as a matter of fact agriculture is a parasite upon the general industry of the country to-day. Agriculture is relieved of a great part of the rates that it ought to bear, and last year, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer raised the rates of duty upon estates, he accepted an Amendment moved by his friends behind him exempting from that increase of Death Duties the value of agricultural estates. Agriculture has always been the pampered darling of the party opposite, and the explanation of that is that they know or believe that in the agricultural interests they have their main electoral support. If a farmer or an agriculturist makes profits', why should he not pay Income Tax upon those profits?
The right hon. Gentleman did not last night use the argument which his predecessor, who is now Home Secretary, used when I raised this question some years ago. It was the old argument that the farmer is such an ignorant fellow that he does not know whether he makes profits or makes losses, that he cannot keep books. There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who are assessed to Income Tax, who keep no books, make no returns, and have no accounts. They are assessed by the local assessor or inspector of taxes upon the income which he reasonably assumes they either are making or ought to make. I could give the House some remarkable instances in that connection. I know one case of that character where the inspector of taxes succeesively raised a man's assessment from £800 to £1,500, to £2,000, without one word of protest, and it was only when he proposed to raise it to £3,000 that the man discovered that he had accounts after all. It is not true to say that the farmer, in regard to making a return of profits, is different from the general run of traders in this country, and there is no reason whatever why this recommendation of the Royal Commission should not be carried into effect, except from the political, party point of view, the all-sufficient reason that was given by the right hon. Gentleman last night.
Just a word or two upon a matter which has been raised by two or three speakers in the course of this Debate in regard to tax evasion. My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh, who was a member of the Royal Commission on Income Tax, told us yesterday that it has been estimated that the revenue loses perhaps £10,000,000 a year through evasion. Much of this, I suppose, is what the Chancellor of the Exchequer once called legitimate evasion. There is no doubt whatever, particularly in regard to Super-tax and Death Duties, that the revenue loses vast sums because it has not the legal power to make thorough investigation and inquiry. When the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. Radford) was dealing with this matter yesterday, describing how people were avoiding the Super-tax and Death Duties, there were loud approving cheers from Members sitting around him. Let me tell him this: This question has often been raised in the House of Commons, and the reason why—I know of what I am speaking—successive Governments have not proposed to the House of Commons more drastic means of dealing with tax evasion, has been because of the opposition with which even moderate proposals of that character have always been met from the party opposite. It has always been realised that it would be impossible, in the face of the opposition of the Tory party, to get in the House of Commons powers which would arm the Revenue authorities with the means of getting at the real facts with regard to income and property which are liable to taxation.
I turn very briefly to deal with some of the proposals of this Bill. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury last night said we had made no reference to the-raiding of the Betting Duty, and I shall say nothing about it at the present moment beyond this, that when we come to the Committee stage of the Bill, we shall deal fully with that matter, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, as I did in his absence in the early part of my observations, that he will not be disappointed with the lack of vigour in the opposition that he will then have to face.
Let me say a word or two about the Road Fund. The Financial Secretary last night justified the taking of £7,000,000 from the Accumulated Fund, on the ground that some years ago the Government made a grant of £8,000,000 to road expenditure. That is a very curious line of defence, but it is quite in harmony with the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to raid a surplus which is-nearly two years old. If a Government is going to be allowed to adopt the policy on taking back grants which have been made years before, and which have been spent, then there is no limit to the extent to which that can be done. I want to make my position quite clear upon this matter. I know that in principle an assigned revenue is not a desirable thing, but there is an exception to every rule, and I think, apart from the objection to principle, an unanswerable case can be made out for maintaining this assigned revenue in this case.
I can quite well imagine that a time might come under the system which has been in existence up to the present time in regard to the allocation of the motor duties for a specific purpose, the maintenance and construction of roads, when the surplus from the Fund would be so large, that it would be quite impossible to spend every penny for the purpose for which it was originally intended. Then not one word could be said against the Government coming to the House of Commons and asking for a revision of the allocation of those duties. But that time has not come. On the contrary, instead of the funds available for road mainten- ance being sufficient, they are inadequate. An hon. Gentleman opposite put a question in regard to the amount of money allocated for secondary roads. We have not touched that problem yet. There are tens, and, possibly, hundreds of millions of money which will be required to be spent upon the secondary roads, which are every day becoming primary roads.
What about economy?
I said a little while ago I had tried to explain the attitude of our party to the question of economy I admitted that, judging by what the Financial Secretary said last night, I had not been very successful. It appears that I have not been any more successful to-day, but may I call to the minds of other Members of the House, perhaps not so dense in this matter as the Chancellor, that I said our attitude to the question of economy was that not one penny should be spent wasfcefully or un-remuneratively, but with generosity where it was useful, beneficial and remunerative. The worst of all economy is parsimony in an essential public service, and by neglecting to spend money on the roads, you are adding greatly to the burden on industry by retarding the means of transport. Surely that has been shown during the last two or three weeks, and if ever, God forbid! there should be a repetition of such a deplorable incident, with the development of motor traction taking place in the meantime, you would find, that unless you had pursued a vigorous policy of road construction, the congestion of the streets and roads would render the position impossible. This- question of the expenditure upon roads is a business question. It is a national question, and it is false economy to refuse the amount of necessary expenditure in keeping the roads in good condition, and, above all, the improvement, the widening of roads, the making of new roads in order to facilitate motor transport. There is no doubt about it that schemes have been held up by the Treasury in anticipation of the raid—the petty larceny, I think it was described by a Tory Member yesterday—which was to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. These are general arguments which we shall develop when we come to discuss this question on the Committee stage of this Bill.
Now with regard to Imperial Preference, and I do want to protest again most strongly against the expression, which has been repeated in the course of this Debate, as to the indifference of the party with which I am associated to the question of Empire development. I am just about sick and tired of hearing the party opposite claiming a monopoly of true Imperialism. But we do not believe that the component parts of the British Empire can be kept together by pettifogging tariff devices. As a matter of fact, tariffs have lost to us what would have been the brightest jewel in the British Empire. There is a very real danger that this question of tariffs may cause an estrangement between this country and other parts of the Empire. You are not going to develop the Empire by a paltry tariff of 10 per cent, or 15 per cent, or even 33ࡩ per cent. What are we doing for the Empire? We have heard yesterday a very able and particularly vigorous maiden speech, by a Member who recently came to this House, on this question of Imperial Tariffs. If we are giving the Colonies any benefit by these preferential duties, it is a trifle light as air compared with other benefits which this country is conferring upon them. We have an open market for them in London. We have lent them £80,000,000 or £90,000,000 a year. All their internal developments have been carried out, I do not say at the expense of this country, but by financial assistance which this country has been able to give them.
They pay good interest.
Not always. I am glad the hon. Gentleman has made that interjection, because it is not merely that we give them those facilities; it is that the apparent benefit that they gain from which we suffer indirectly. The greatest problem which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to face to-day, and which Chancellors of the Exchequer will have to face in the next 10 or 20 years, is the question of Debt conversion. Now, the Colonial issues are trustee securities, and the raising of £80,000,000 or £90,000,000 as Colonial loans or as conversions on the London market, reacts disadvan-tageously upon Government borrowing in this country. And what do we get by way of reciprocal action from the Dominions? They give us a preference it is true. [ Interruption. ] I wish the hon. Member (Sir N. Moore), who seems incapable of making any contribution to a Debate except by more or less irrelevant interruptions, will allow me to proceed. The Dominions have always put their preferential duties sufficiently high to protect the home market and home products.
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I have known quite recently cases where British industries have been ruined by these. I have the facts in regard to mill in my own constituency, which for 30 years have been able successfully to supply the South African market with Kaffir rugs, but the Dominion has put on a prohibitive tariff and now not a single rug is going from that factory into the South African market. I went to see the Overseas Trade Department in connection with this matter, and I was told by them that they could not interfere with autonomy of the Dominions whose policy it was to protect their native industries—I suppose with terribly disastrous consequences to this country! In regard to emigration. May I remind hon. Members that we provided millions to send out families. There was also a million pounds put aside for the purpose of helping to market the produce of the British Empire. I do not know how much of that money has been spent, but I would note this: that only quite recently the Dominions have been sending back to this country strong active men from the North of England, because they were not tall enough to meet the demands of that particular Government. They will have only the best we can give them.
In this Debate there have been criticisms of our attitude on the question of Imperial Preference. One hon. Member referred to a declaration of policy made on behalf of the Labour Government when we were in office. But we did not interfere with the existing preferences. One of the reasons why we object to the proposal in this Bill for the stabilisation of Imperial Preference for 10 years is that you are going to delude the Colonies in the matter, and it is not fair. You can give them no guarantee. We have so often stated, and I repeat it here, that in the course of the political whirligig the present position of the parties in this House may be reversed, and we should not for one moment consider ourselves as bound by the Clause which is embodied in the Bill.
I do not know whether my orthodox Free Trade colleagues suspect me of not being quite sound in the faith on this matter, but this is how I look upon preference on food: It is a reduction in the amount of duty, therefore I do not oppose it; but it has always been the policy of our party, always our aim, to remove taxes upon food or upon raw materials. We shall steadily proceed with our endeavours. We shall certainly pursue the policy, if we get back to office, which was stated two years ago, and that was to take off duties upon food. I made a declaration in March, a year ago, as to the McKenna Duties in that light. May I refer to an observation made by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury yesterday in the Debate? The right hon. Gentleman referred to the decision of a previous Parliament that they were going to guarantee for 10 years stabilisation of Preference. If the Colonies think that these preferences are going to be guaranteed for 10 years they are mistaken.
Surely the Colonies know perfectly well then the danger there would be if ever the Labour party came back to power?
There is not the slightest reason for it. It would be ineffective if another Government came to office holding different views to the present. The Colonies can attach the proper importance to the declaration; therefore what is the use of it? If the present Government remain in office I assume that they will continue this policy whether or not it is embodied in the Finance Bill; therefore there is not the slightest reason for the guarantee.
I said a little while ago that the most important question the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to face for many years is the question of National Debt. The hon. Member who preceded me was very optimistic in regard to the falling of the rate of interest in the next few years. I wish I could share that optimism. If I know the facts of the case I would put it this way: Suppose trade improves and we get a great boom there will be a demand for new capital, and it is not in those circumstances that the rates of interest will fall. When the demand for new capital has been temporarily satiated we shall get a lower rate; but taking a wide view of world movements of trade I do not see that it is likely we shall for a considerable time get back to the rates which were in operation in the days before the War, though it is not impossible in 20 or 30 years there may be a considerable improvement I do not want to make party capital out Of this issue. It is far too serious a matter. Apart from that we may have the responsibility of dealing with it before many years have run. Therefore I do not want to say anything, and most certainly I do not want to do anything that will make harder this terrible problem of dealing with debt conversion.
I do not, however, see how the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to convert the Debt maturing in the next few years at a rate of interest very much lower than the present rate. I hope there will be such a change in the next few years in the condition of things that he will be able to carry through such conversion on advantageous terms. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has left the Front Bench, for I wanted a reply to something I have to ask, but doubtless the Finance Secretary will make notes.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, we understand, has been in communication with the French Finance Minister for the payment of the French Debt. We have no information as to the outcome of these negotiations except the very meagre and probably not reliable account which has appeared in the newspapers. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in a position to-day to make some statement on the matter I am sure it would be received with interest, not merely by Members of the House, but by the whole country. If, of course, the negotiations are not completed, may I say that I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not get the worst of the bargain with countries which are heavily in our debt? They evidently have been able to deal with both Italy and France much better in Washington than the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been able to deal with them in London. The Italian debt to America has been arranged on terms far more favourable to America than the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to make in relation to the debt to Britain. The Italians are paying over a period of years to the United States of America practically the whole amount of their debt. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made an arrangement on our behalf with Italy by which we wrote off about 75 per cent, of their debt.
The arrangements which have been made by the representatives of France at Washington show that America will gain from the United States over the period during which the repayment of the indebtedness goes very much better terms in relation to her indebtedness than were made by the arrangements in London last year. I do not know whether the whole question of the French debt has been, or will be, reopened. But I want to say this: The French Finance Minister has. said that he found our Chancellor of the Exchequer a most agreeable person. I trust the right hon. Gentleman is not going to get a reputation of this sort at the expense of sacrificing the financial interests of this country! I repeat that, if the Chancellor is able to make some statement on this matter, I trust he will do so when he comes to a reply on the debate.
I do not know that I want to say much more except another word or two on the very interesting speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman). I have never shared those feelings of gloom and pessimism which have entered into various speeches in regard to the future of British credit or trade. I think when we take everything into consideration that we have, during the last few years, done fairly well. We have practically maintained the volume, the pre-War volume, of our world trade. Therefore, I am not at all pessimistic, indeed, I am almost inclined to be optimistic as to the future.
As to the dislocation which has taken place within the last few weeks I am not going into that matter now, but I might express the hope that the lesson of the dispute will be learnt by all parties to it and by all who are interested in British industry. This is as much a matter of interest to my hon. Friends here of the Labour party, and the workers of the country, as it is to the great captains of industry who have large interests and much capital invested in trade. It is the interest of all. I believe that if we can get a spirit of goodwill we shall see a great revival of British industry—for the British workman has not lost his skill. His hand has not lost its cunning. He is still the best workman in the world. Therefore I do pray that we may all have learned the lessons of the recent upheaval, that we may get back and begin a new era and, in a spirit of co-operation, try to make the best we can both of the labour and of the capital of this country in the interests, not of one section of the community only, but of the country as a whole.
One cannot help responding to the sentiments the right hon. Gentleman expressed in the last sentences of his speech. They appealed with great force to every section of this House and to all members of the community. The right hon. Gentleman, at the beginning of his speech, gave us some very interesting reasons for dealing in a friendly spirit with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. One of them involved the tenderness of heart of the colleague at his side, and the other apparently arose from the petering out of his own stock of expletives and adjectives. His last sentences have almost prevented me from uttering the words I was going to use in regard to that, because those sentences were so far removed from any expletives. He gave us, however, an example of what he could do without expletives, and the House enjoyed it just as much. He could not help falling away for a moment when he spoke of agriculture as parasitical on industry, and when he accused Members on this side of the House of complicity with tax evasion. If he did not mean that, he ought to disclaim it.
There is a very subtle distinction between encouraging and condoning tax evasion and opposition to giving the revenue authorities greater power to deal with it. I simply confined myself to the fact that, whenever proposals have been made to strengthen the hands of the revenue authorities, they have always met with strong opposition in this House.
The right hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest motives, but I do not think the motive was the one he suggested. If hon. Members object to these powers, it is because they fear that steps of that kind might easily defeat their object and cause more loss than gain, and I hope that we shall hear from the Chancellor that that is the reason why there are no such proposals in this year's Budget. I am going to leave that somewhat polemical point in view of the universally admired spirit, which I hope will be universally followed, with which the right hon. Gentleman concluded his speech. If carried out by everyone, it means that we shall get back to a position even better than before this late unfortunate dispute occurred. I as a humble back bencher, am delighted to recognise that spirit in the right hon. Gentleman.
Before dealing with the one point on which I would like to say a word, let me say that, with regard to the various means by which the Chancellor proposes to make up the balance he requires, I shall support them all. I shall support the Betting Duty, the contribution from the Road Fund and the further taxation of motor vehicles, and I shall do so for the reason that up to the present moment they hold the field. There is a balance which has to be made up. Very ingenious and eloquent members have spoken during the Debate to-day and yesterday, but nobody has suggested any better way to make it up. Moreover, the two great objections that might be raised to two of them, the moral objection in regard to the betting tax and the objection of a pledge or a contract in the case of the Road Fund, have been abandoned by everybody who spoke. Both the hon. Member for Exeter (Sir R. Newman) and the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) definitely abandoned these grounds of opposition, which are the only two grounds of opposition that could really justify objection to these taxes. For these reasons I shall support them.
With regard to the general criticism that has been offered as to the amount of the Budget, and with regard to what is looked upon as the Chancellor's view that that figure is practically stabilised at something like £800,000,000, I have the greatest possible doubt whether it will not turn out that, for a long time to come, this figure of £800,000,000 is very nearly stabilised. I do not know if hon. Members remember that seven years ago there was an estimated normal Budget, prepared by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is now the Foreign Secretary, which worked out at £808,000,000 a year. That was in a year in which the total expenditure was still £2,000,000,000. It is extraordinary that that estimate of £808,000,000 should be almost identically the figure at which we have arrived to-day after all those years. There have been many vicissitudes on both sides of the Budget. There have been increases and deductions, but it is a very remarkable thing that an estimate, made looking forward into the future by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, should have been so remarkably fulfilled at this moment, seven years later. What is the cause? There have been numerous reductions made, but, on the other hand, especially, in the last few years, whenever there was a deduction made, there was an addition made as well. That is one great difficulty we are up against. It seems to me that we really are facing two main difficulties, and these two points represent the reason why we cannot get the process of reduction any further.
One reason is the feeling there seems to be that whenever the State has relations with any section of the community, whether Industrial employés, sailors or soldiers, taxed persons, insured persons, or teachers, there is in existence something in the nature of a contract which cannot be varied so far as the State is concerned, and which the State is obliged to implement at every turn, but which is not binding on the other party. I would like to remind the House of the sort of considerations that were put forward ad nauseam during the Debates on the Economy Bill. Hon. Members can recollect that on all the issues brought forward on the Economy Bill, the argument was in every case that, where anything turned out that was not to the advantage of the other party to the question, that other party should have an allowance made, but whenever the State received anything in the nature of a windfall or anything which operated to advantage to the State, that the State should get no benefit from it. In other words, whenever there was any loss not contemplated by the original bargain, the State must step in and find the amount. That seems to be one of the two main reasons why we shall find it extraordinarily difficult to even keep to this normal Budget of £800,000,000 for very long.
There is another reason. I happen to be with my colleague on my right (Sir F. Wise) a member of the Estimates Committee ever since it was set up after the coming into power of the Coalition Government. We have examined all the Estimates more than once and we have had opportunities of seeing what the difficulties are with regard to the reduction of Estimates of all the Departments of the State. We constantly find that whenever there is a saving made any where, it is always counterbalanced or more than counterbalanced by bringing in proposals for further expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke just now pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was responsible for an increase of something like £30,000,000. I think that he would be right if he said £30,000,000 of increased expenditure, two-thirds of which is due to commitments incurred under the present Government and for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might, therefore, be considered to be responsible. Members of the House need only look at the interesting Command Paper 2613 which has just been brought out to show that something like £8,000,000 or £9,000,000 of that expenditure arose out of commitments entered into before the present Government came into power. I daresay the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) will remember, because he was responsible for some of it.
The other two-thirds represents expenditure for which commitments have been entered into during the present Government. But of what do they consist? When it is suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the present Government are responsible for two-thirds of this £30,000,000, it should be remembered that that consists of money voted for unemployment insurance, beet sugar, Empire produce, increases in the emoluments of the police, the production of steel houses and housing, the Tithe Act, the Drainage Act, the training of unemployed men and, finally, Widows' and Old Age Pensions—commitments of the General Election to which every party in the House was bound. Every single party had committed itself to both widows' pensions and the improvement of old age pensions. Finally, there was the coal subsidy. These make up the two-thirds of the £30,000,000, for which the right hon. Gentleman said the Chancellor of the Exchequer was responsible. However, I am only quoting these items in order to suggest to the House that they explain the reason why we cannot make reductions in our expenditure of £800,000,000 Immediately a reduction is made on one item, then, apparently under the almost irresistible pressure of circumstances, we get other items of expenditure such as the ones I have just mentioned to prevent economy.
Can the hon. Member tell us what is the total?
The total of the items in that Command Paper is £30,000,000, and the total of the sums in respect of which the present Government have made commitments is, I think, £21,000,000; the balance of £9,000,000 being for items to which the present Government were committed before they came into office.
How, then, is the House to get any reduction and expenditure, in view of the difficulties I have mentioned, which provide the real reason why we cannot get below the figure of £800,000,000? I think a reduction can be effected in only one way, and that is by a determination on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, backed up by the united Cabinet, and by all parties in this House, to enforce a reduction of expenditure wherever it can be accomplished. I have no time now to discuss whether the opening for a reduction can be found in the £116,000,000 spent on the fighting forces—we have to police the frontiers of the Empire, both on sea and land—or whether it is to be found in the £238,000,000 spent on what is called the Civil Service, which includes all our expenditure on social reform or whether the Debt Service Charge can be reduced. I do not want to discuss the details of that at this moment; but I do suggest that unless there is this working alliance between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Prime Minister, the Cabinet, the House, and an instructed public opinion outside, we shall be committed to an expenditure of £800,000,000 for as far forward as we can see.
There is one practical suggestion I want to make if my right hon. Friends the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the late Financial Secretary will kindly give me their attention for one moment, sorry as I am to interrupt the conversation which is taking place between them. I have a suggestion as to two ways in which expenditure may be reduced, and I trust that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will read them to to-morrow as he has been prevented from listening to them to-day, by reasons which are beyond his control and, no doubt, are quite justified. In order that this working partnership between the Cabinet, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House and the country should be made effective, would it be possible for some statement as to the proceedings of the Cabinet Committee on Economy to be published from time to time? I mention that because I have a strong feeling that our work on the Estimates Committee is little more than an effective means of passing on information to certain Members of Parliament.
We should very much like to know what hon. Members are doing on the Estimates Committee.
We draw up a great many valuable Reports, but we are not quite certain whether hon. Members or members of His Majesty's Government get the benefit which is to be derived from a perusal of them. But I go beyond those things. I do not believe either the Estimates Committee, with its limited powers, the Public Accounts Committee, or any external Committee, can do any good in this matter. It is a case for the Cabinet, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, I think, the more he takes this House and the public into his confidence as to how they regard those tendencies which bring about a rise in expenditure and prevent our deriving an advantage from any savings which are being made, and engage the House and the Country in his support, the better it will be. I am cer- tainly convinced that by no other means will it be possible to get expenditure down below the £800,000,000 mark.
I have one or two points to put with regard to the proposals for the diversion of money from the Road Fund, about which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury had something to say yesterday, and a connected subject which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned in his speech introducing the Budget. I will start with the latter, because I want, if I may, to offer very respectfully a word of congratulation to the two right hon. Gentlemen on the hope which has been thrown out that next year we may have a system of taxing motor spirit instead of the present system of taxing motor vehicles. I believe the motor trade and all the allied bodies are unanimous in believing that a tax upon motor spirit is the only fair way of raising taxes from motorists. The Financial Secretary referred yesterday to "the principle to which we still adhere"—"we" meaning the Government—that the users of the roads ought to pay for their upkeep; and that being so, presumably they ought to pay for their upkeep in proportion to their usage of the roads. That seems to me to be a fair rider to add: and a duty on motor spirit, which I believe is being considered by the right hon. Gentleman's Department, is the only possible way of achieving that. It does not, of course, arrive at it exactly, but it approximates more closely the various factors of mileage, power, weight and speed which have to be reckoned in the use of the roads. I very much hope that before the next Budget comes round we shall know that this system has been reverted to. We all know these are practical difficulties, but those have been overcome in this country in the past, and are being overcome in other countries at the present time. With regard to the revision of the additional taxation on commercial vehicles, I would add that there is still room for improvement with regard to the proportion of tax paid by the smaller commercial vehicles and by electric vehicles.
I pass now to the Road Fund. Yesterday the right hon. Gentleman would not allow me to intervene for a minute during his speech in order to put him a question, or two questions. He said he was glad the suggestion had been given up that in the action which the Government are taking there is any breach of their pledge. As the right hon. Gentleman himself has admitted this morning with regard to his own proposals for Imperial Preference, we all know that a pledge of that kind cannot be absolute; but I would remind him that a long succession of Governments and of Ministers have used the very strongest words, amounting, it may be said, to a pledge, with reference to this taxation. Over and over again they have assured the motor industry that this money would be and should be used only for road construction; and even so late as last October, the present Home Secretary, speaking at the annual dinner of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said this was in essence a voluntary tax imposed and accepted by users of the roads because it was understood that the money was to be used upon the roads; and I say that only for the very strongest reasons ought there to be any departure from that practice.
Now I come to the point on which I wished to intervene for a minute yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary said: a small proportion on the cost of the property. If, however, we wait till the land is built upon, a very large proportion is spent upon buying the property, and only a comparatively small proportion on the actual road improvement. That is an argument for getting along with road improvements as fast as possible at this time. The Government, in taking money from the Road Fund and giving it to the Treasury, are only acting consistently with the declarations of their Minister of Transport. I think he fails completely to grasp the essentials of the transport problem. The Minister of Transport in this Government has said more than once that his first duty as Minister of Transport is to limit the number of vehicles upon the roads. I submit that that is dealing with the thing entirely upside down. The first-duty of the right hon. Gentleman is to provide a sufficient number of roads for the vehicles which want to use them. This proposal ought to be discussed on its merits, and no case whatever has been made out so far that the amount of money which we have to expend upon road construction and maintenance is excessive, but far from that it is not even enough.
There is one other matter in regard to motor taxation to which I would like to allude. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing to take one-third of the amount raised in taxation from pleasure and private motor cars, because, he says, that one-third represents the luxury or pleasure aspect of those cars. Incidentally I might remind the House that the excuse which has been offered by both the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary for the imposition of a Customs duty on commercial cars has been the difficulty of distinguishing between the commercial and the private car. Yesterday the Financial Secretary made the suggestion that when the McKenna Duties were originally put on, it was first of all the intention of Mr. McKenna to include commercial vehicles in his financial scheme, but the reason why commercial vehicles were not included was simply because they were wanted for the purposes of the War. Therefore, it appears that it is impossible to distinguish according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer between commercial cars and private cars when brought in at the ports, but it is possible to distinguish between them when you are going to levy a certain amount of taxation on private cars in reference to their luxury or pleasure aspect.
If it is true that two-thirds of the taxation of the private car is imposed in respect of its use of the road, and one-third for pleasure, then either the right hon. Gentleman is imposing a special tax upon a special class of people, or else he ought not to take the one-third at all and give it to the Treasury, but he ought to take that one-third, remit that taxation, and give it back to the owners of the cars. However much luxury taxation may appeal to hon. Members above the Gangway, I suggest that just so long as the cost of motor vehicles is kept up so long will they remain a luxury. It is only by reducing the cost of motor vehicles, and encouraging the trade to produce cheaper vehicles that you can bring what is now called a luxury within the means of a larger number of people. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should pursue the lines along which he has given us some hope, and then I believe that all these difficulties about road taxation and differentiation between one class and another may be swept away by a reversion to a system of the taxation of motor spirit.
I wish to express my appreciation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the proposed reform which he hopes to make in connection with the assessment of Income Tax. On this matter I speak from rather a different point of view to that which has been expressed by other speakers in the course of this Debate. The change from the three years' average to the assessment on the previous years' profits has always been a principle very dear to my heart, and while I have been in the House of Commons I have modestly, but consistently, endeavoured to encourage the reform which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now proposing to the House. I agree entirely with all the expressions of approval made use of by other hon. Members on this matter during the Debate, and I am perfectly satisfied that the commercial community will accept and welcome the change with the greatest gratification.
It is not only from that point of view that I welcome the change. I also welcome it because I see in it the first step towards a general simplification of the Income Tax, and I would like to express the hope in parenthesis that the Clauses as drafted in the Bill dealing with this point do not represent the Chancellor's idea of simplicity because they are about the most involved Clauses anybody could possibly imagine. There are references to previous Finance Acts, to rulings in connection with Income Tax Acts and to cases, and the Clauses are almost unintelligible as they appear in the Bill. Under these circumstances I sincerely hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may see his way, if these proposals are carried, to propose some codification of the various Income Tax Acts in connection with the assessment under the new principle of the previous year's profits.
I fear that the Clauses of the Acts as at present drafted will make the administration of the Income Tax, particularly from the point of view of those who have to deal with questions of appeal and such like which depend upon the interpretation of the Act, very much more difficult than they are to-day. When I speak of simplification, I have not only got in my mind the Clauses of the Finance Bill as it will probably emerge from this House, but I have a much higher ideal of the simplification of the Income Tax, and I have reason to believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shares my idea of simplification very sincerely. I believe it would be a great triumph to simplify generally the whole system of collection and administration of the Income Tax, because this would be of great benefit not only to the taxpayer but it would also effect a great saving in the cost of administration. To arrive at the ideal of simplicity which I have in mind and which I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in mind, it will be necessary to go a good deal further than the present Act.
It is certainly a step in the right direction that assessments under Schedule A should be brought under the same method of assessment as Schedule D; but to arrive at the simplicity which I have in mind it will be necessary to bring all the Schedules under the same principle, and I believe this could be effected. I know there will be difficulties, but I think if the Chancellor will carefully consider the matter he will be able to arrive at a system whereby he can do away ultimately with all the various Schedules under which the Income Tax is collected, and bring them all under one Schedule which will be an immense advantage in arriving at the ideal simplification. Once we have done that, and when we have got the whole question of assessment of Income Tax upon one similar basis, we shall be able to go one step further and arrive at the ultimate ideal of all of us, for we shall then be able to bring the assessment of Supertax upon the same basis of assessment as that of Income Tax. I should be happy to assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer on behalf of all the Members of the House of Commons that if he will endeavour to keep before him this simple ideal which I have suggested, I feel satisfied that he will have the support of the whole House.
In considering the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, which is the outcome of a Budget amounting to £800,000,000, I want to put before the House one or two considerations with regard to finance which I believe will represent the views of a very large section of the population of this country. May I preface what I want to say by drawing the attention of the House to the fact that we have had an experience during the last few weeks which we all deplore—an industrial movement, an industrial stoppage which expressed the feelings of some millions of our population upon the question of industrial conditions and wages.
I want to suggest that a somewhat meretricious vistory, which, after all, is not so much a victory when all things are considered, should not be allowed to blind the eyes of the Government to the real importance of this industrial movement. I think the Government would be well advised to endeavour to understand what large numbers of the working population are thinking. A large number of the speeches I have listened to during the Second Reading Debate on this Bill have dealt with the stupendous magnitude of the amount dealt with in the Budget and the great burden that such a demand makes upon the taxpayers and other providers of revenue. We have been told what a burden this is to the nation as a whole. I want to traverse that point of view to some extent, and I wish to point out that that burden is not so much of a burden as a large number of Members of the House seem to imagine. We have to think in proportions and, after all, the national expenditure must bear some relation to the wealth of the nation.
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As a matter of fact, the wealth of the nation to-day is of such great magnitude that to talk about effecting economies upon social services is hardly justified, although at the same time I do not want to pretend that I am advocating extravagance or waste in any direction whatever. I believe in efficiency, but when the people of the country, when those who are more closely connected with wages and conditions read the speeches of some hon. Members about economy upon our social services, or economy here and there, they realise the fact—at any rate the educated members of the working class realise it—that the distribution of wealth is disproportionate. I want to give the House one or two facts which justify the point of view that I want to present. There are in this country 17,235,000 people who are enjoying an income if £1,812,000,000, and there are 2,552,000 who enjoy an income of £1,987,100,000. I take these figures from Sir Josiah Stamp. Two and a half millions of the population enjoy an income which is more than one-half of the total national income, while 17¼ millions enjoy an income which is less than one-half of the total national income. When we are told that we really cannot afford to spend upon social services, or that this nation is so deplorably poor that we must go very carefully about these social services and about expenditure which in other circumstances might be justified, I do not think, in the face of figures like those I have mentioned, that such a point of view is borne out at all.
The argument with which I want to deal, without wishing to burden the House with an abstract dissertation upon economies, is that interference with the national income of these 2½ million people is a burden upon industry—that to tax highly people who enjoy high incomes is to divert the capital of the country, that to distribute the income of the nation more fairly than it is distributed, by means of taxation or otherwise, is to take away from the capital reserves of the nation, and, therefore to prevent the development of industry and the encouragement of enterprise. That point of view has been put very frequently in this House by the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), but I would like him to give consideration to another angle of view with regard to this question. At the beginning of the 19th century we were in the heyday of our industrial development, or, perhaps, it would be more true to say that during the first quarter of the 19th century there was, comparatively speaking, an extraordinary development of capital enterprise. The great industrial revolution had begun; our railways were beginning to be thought of; the application of steam power to machinery and the general development of our export trade was just beginning. This nation, I suggest, required, at that time, proportionately, a higher reserve of capital than it requires at the present time. I say proportionately; I mean, not in actual amount, but in proportion to the population and to the national wealth. That capital, unquestionably, was available. The development of industry during that period proves the point that I am making. And yet, at that time, the taxation in proportion to income was slightly more, but not very much more, than the taxation in proportion to income is now. The proportion of taxation, direct and indirect, was slightly, but not very much, higher, and the power of bearing taxation was obviously less than it is at the present time.
As the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out in his speech some days ago, the amount of taxation to-day can be more easily borne because the income is so very much greater. The national income in 1800 was £175,000,000. The national income in 1825 was £400,000,000, and to-day the national income is £4,000,000,000. Therefore, I think that the arguments put forward in favour of economy at everybody's expense are hardly justified, in view of the real capital and reserve necessities of the nation. Those figures, boiled down, amount to this, that one-seventh of the persons receiving incomes in Great Britain are year by year appropriating more than half the available income. The effect of this is cumulative, and it is, therefore, not surprising to find that two-thirds of the existing capital wealth is held by so small a proportion as one-fiftieth of the adult population. I am here quoting from a publication called the "Liberal Magazine," and I have given the actual figures, from competent authorities, on which a statement of that kind is based. My point is that this nation is not so poor, that the income of this nation and the wealth of this nation never was higher, proportionately to the number of population.
If we look at it from another point of view, from the point of view of the production of wealth—the potential power of the nation, with its machinery and its application of the forces of Nature to industry—we find a very much greater disproportion under modern conditions to-day, as compared with the conditions existing 100 years ago in this country It is quite easy to prove that our power of producing wealth is at least a hundred times as great per head of the population as it was 100 years ago. There are some industries in which the actual potential production is at least a thousand times greater per head of those engaged in the industry than it was at the beginning of the 19th century; and yet we are told that the nation is too poor to allow of extension of social services, and that we must get back to a condition of far less demand upon the income of the nation in the way of national expenditure than is represented by this Budget of £800,000,000. As I have said, I do not want to argue in favour of wasteful expenditure, but I do want to say, in view of the solid feeling of vast numbers of the working-class population of this country, that it will not do, under these conditions of wealth, of potential wealth and of national income, to ignore their demands for a better redistribution of income, either by way of taxation or by other methods much more economic and much more in accordance with sound national and financial principles.
There is a vast amount of poverty in this country to-day. That poverty means that people go without the necessaries of life—not necessarily that the majority of them are destitute, but that they do not get sufficient in the way of food, clothing, shelter, and other things desirable in life, to make their life really what it ought to be and might be. We have to-day a condition of industry in which it is possible to produce an overwhelming quantity of wealth. The fact that we produce an enormous in- come, which is so badly distributed, is one of the reasons why the educated workman of this country is becoming intolerant of the present system, and is inclined to express his intolerance in such undesirable ways as was represented by the recent industrial trouble. I suggest that the House of Commons cannot ignore these facts, and that there ought to be some way in which the income of this nation should be better distributed than it is.
Those who hold certain economic views, which I do not share, say that the vast increase of wealth is a result of the superior ability of the owning and ruling classes, and that, if any inroads are made upon that surplus wealth—apart from the point with which I have dealt and which I do not think is a good one, in regard to necessary reserves of capital—it is said that, if inroads are made upon that surplus wealth, it means robbery and confiscation. I agree that I am now getting somewhat into abstract economics, but I think it is worth while drawing the attention of the House to some of these considerations, which are being thought about very closely by members of my class in the country. Capital and wealth are social products. They are produced by the social labour of everyone concerned who does productive work. It is not true to say that the vast differences of income are the result of the superior ability or the superior organising power of one section, and a very small section, of the community. It is not wholly true, at any rate. It is not wholly true for the reason that the greater part of the ability referred to is applied, not to the production of wealth at all, but to mere business operations, which are largely a game of beggar-my-neighbour. In the main, the people who are engaged in actual productive work are people who are paid by the owning and ruling classes. It is business to which the great abilities of these people are applied, and I am dealing, not with mere business, but with the actual fountains of wealth, and the way in which wealth is produced in this country.
No one can question that this wealth, part of which is the capital of the community, is a social product due largely to the advance of civilisation. The mere fact that the majority of the inventors in the 19th century died poor proves, surely, that that vast increase of potential wealth-producing power is not a question of the ability of a small class in the country, but, even supposing that it is, is civilisation worth while if all the gifts of this particularly able class of organisers, producers, and so on, are to be used merely as a means of self-aggrandisement? Surely, we have to regard ourselves as a community, as a nation, and it is not advantageous to the health of the nation, it is not good for the moral or the physical development of the nation, that such a large disproportion of income should exist. These are the facts, and I give them to the House. I contend that they completely overthrow the point of view, which has formed the basis of a large amount of discussion in this House, that the nation is poor and that we cannot afford to spend upon social services, that we cannot afford to experiment in regard to unemployment and the thousand and one things that ought to be done in this country if we want to get the country upon its feet and to get the best out of the people of the country.
That argument does not hold water The nation is richer to-day than ever it was, and a Budget of £800,000,000 is not an extraordinary Budget if we take into account the national income and the productive powers of the nation. I do hope that that kind of argument will be dropped, and that the brains of hon. Members opposite and of the Government will be applied, not so much to cheeseparing economy at the expense of the poor, but to better distribution of income, which depends upon the better organisation of wealth production, and the utilisation in wealth production of the principle of national interest and national advantage, in preference to the mere advantage of individuals. The real wealth of the nation must be considered from the national standpoint, and not merely from the standpoint of the particular prosperity of this small number of the community—only two and a-half millions—who enjoy more than one-half of the national income. I apologise, if that is necessary, for introducing rather a fundamental and abstract point of view in a Debate which necessarily and desirably has to do with the actual details of the Budget, but those are the facts which impinge upon the minds of large numbers of people who have been struggling for a decent living wage, and we should try to realise their point of view and see if the great brains and ability of the leaders of the nation cannot be applied to a fairer and more equitable distribution of wealth.
I regret that the House was not more densely filled during the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sir H. Buckingham) and during the interesting, if somewhat discursive, lecture on the social issue to which we have been treated by the last speaker. Both those speeches, whatever opinion may be entertained of their point of view, were the fruits of knowledge and reflection, and were inspired throughout with the idea of contributing to, and raising the quality of, the Debates in the House of Commons. I am not going to follow the hon. Member opposite into his fundamental exploration of the faults, or even the inequalities, of our social system further than to say that to hear his argument one would suppose that the persons who possess wealth were an unchanging order and that some impassable barrier cut them off from the great mass of the nation. There have been times and there have been countries in which such a barrier has existed, but it has long ago been thrown down in this country, and it is the common purpose of all parties and Governments to make its re-erection or continued existence quite impossible. One has only to look around from one's own experience at the great industries of the present day to see at the head of almost every business, and in all the best situations throughout the country, men who, by their own abilities, with very small means, sometimes none at all, have raised themselves to positions of affluence and authority. That must be borne in mind by all who wish to study in a sincere spirit the admitted difficulties and anomalies of the civilisation we have at present been able to evolve.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) asked me if I could make any statement on the subject of the French debt negotiations. I hope he will excuse me from attempting to do so. The negotiations are still continuing and I am expecting that the French Finance Minister will return very shortly. I do not think a partial dis- closure of the discussions would in any way assist our reaching a satisfactory conclusion, and after all the main position taken up by this country is already so clearly defined that any outstanding points under discussion necessarily lie between very narrow limits. So I would address myself in the first instance to some aspects of our position which have been dealt with by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. He described my position as pitiable and pathetic, but I can assure him that it is with complete sincerity that I feel that he himself deserves on this occasion a measure of compassion. He told us that his vocabulary of abuse was exhausted. I take the House to witness that I have always warned him against the wasting of these formidable epithets and bloodcurdling terms of vituperation on quite inadequate points and that they would be wanted in days to come when he would be willing to strike but yet totally bankrupt in the necessary supplies of venom.
I can only hope the salubrious breezes of the Whitsuntide Recess may enable him to refill his rhetorical balloon and that in the meanwhile he will not be too much discouraged, because, after all, if he found very few words of criticism and denunciation to apply to me, his usual target, he had a certain amount of byproduct with which he was able to belabour the agricultural and farming classes of the country. He described agriculture as a parasite upon our national life. He described the agricultural industry and the farmers as the pampered darlings of the Tory party. I do not see the Minister for Agriculture in his place, but I am sure those are quotations which, if they had been made earlier, would have been found very convenient for him at the late Newmarket Election, and I am sure the words which have been used with great deliberation by the right hon. Gentleman and by the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate yesterday, and the clear indication they have expressed of their wish and desire that agriculture should be more heavily and more searchingly taxed than at present ought to be laid before the representatives of the Farmers' Union.
The right hon. Gentleman asked the House to reject the Second Reading of the Budget on various grounds. None of them seemed to me to have any relation to the Amendment on the Paper, but they were substantial grounds and I will very briefly touch upon them. In the first place he said the Budget should be rejected because expenditure was too high. We have had this topic discussed again and again and the House has examined in the utmost detail the causes why expenditure has reached its present figure and what are the explanations, and has considered also the measures we are taking to endeavour to control and abate that very high expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman also asked the House to reject the Bill because of the unfair burden of taxation on the masses of the people. The proportion of direct and indirect taxation has been altered since the period before the War continually in the sense of making the burden on the indirect taxpayer lighter and the burden upon the direct taxpayer greater, and not only is that so as regards the weight of the taxes but also as regards their yield to the Exchequer. Since the present Government came into office, and since I have held my present office, there has come into the field of indirect taxation a class of indirect taxes which it is absurd to speak of as if they were additions to the burden of the working masses of the people—the McKenna Duties, the Silk Duties and the Betting Tax. It is true that they figure in the category of indirect taxation, but to say they can possibly be compared with taxes like those that rest on tea, sugar, beer, tobacco, the main staple comforts and luxuries of the working classes, is to adopt an altogether unreasonable position. It is clear that luxury taxation of the kind which in this Parliament we have been steadily examining, and in which we have been experimenting, counts not as an addition to the taxation borne by the mass of the nation, but to that which in one way or another is borne by the more wealthy classes of the country.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked the House to reject the Bill because it does not relieve the burden that presses upon industry. Really, I am astonished that the right hon. Gentleman, at this time of all others, after the experiences of the last fortnight, should come forward, representing, as he does, the party opposite, and warn us against the evils of increasing the burdens that rest on the community. We have not been able, it is true, to make any reductions in taxation this year, but we have endeavoured to help industry as much as possible by maintaining a strict finance and by making due provision for the payment of interest on the National Debt and for the amortisation of that debt. That is all we have been able to do this year, that is all it was wise to do this year, and the fact that, as a result of these measures, and as the result of our adoption of the gold standard a year ago, our exchange, even at this period of great difficulty, stands at a higher point than for so many years is a fact which we may justifiably quote when we are told we have done nothing to relieve the burdens upon industry. A stable exchange and a good credit are two of the greatest services which the Government of a country can render to its industry—not only to the organisers of industry and of enterprise, but to the great masses of the working people, who, by an honest administration of the currency and a steady diminution in the cost of living or, what is the same thing, the increased purchasing power of their wages, are the main gainers by a stable currency as they are the first to lose and suffer when it is manipulated for special purposes.
The right hon. Gentleman, with his usual lip service to economy, complained that hundreds of millions were not being spent on the unclassified roads. [ Interruption. ] I may have misheard him, but I wrote it down at once for better security. "Hundreds of millions might be spent on the secondary roads." He used an argument which I consider rather curious considering his position. He pointed out how important these secondary roads might be if at some future time we were confronted with a general or a railway strike and had to break it by means of motor transport. Everybody who heard it would be very much struck by this revelation of the right hon. Gentleman's point of view. We must have a sense of proportion in these matters. It is entirely a question of proportion. The Government is not cutting down the amount spent on unclassified roads. On the contrary, we are largely increasing it. We are providing for a general expenditure on roads of £3,500,000 more this year than last year, and for these special roads £1,250,000 more will be made available this year than last year. There is no doubt whatever that it is essential to relieve the burden upon unclassified roads, and I have no doubt that that will be a feature of future years. The movement of the motor car into all parts of the country, and the ever growing pressure it brings to bear upon local authorities to maintain these roads, is a matter which more than any other requires the attention of those who administer the Road Fund, and there is every indication and every assurance that considerably growing funds will be available year after year to enable that duty to be discharged.
Lastly, the right hon. Gentleman—I am not referring to all the points he dealt with in his comprehensive speech—came to the question of the Imperial development of the Empire. He began with a most vigorous repudiation of the suggestion that he and his Friends are not equally as ardent and equally as enthusiastic in the cause of the Empire as any hon. or right hon. Member who sits in any part of the House. I am sure we heard that declaration with the very greatest satisfaction. I heard it from his lips, I confess, with a considerable element of surprise. I have watched the political career of the right hon. Gentleman for more than a quarter of a century with the interest which it has always commanded from those who were closely involved in British politics. I have seen him a champion of law and order, an advocate, a stern advocate, of orthodox and strict finance, and I have seen him a fearless defender of the cause of peace abroad. We have seen him stand up for conciliation in our affairs at home, but never in the course of that quarter of a century has any word of enthusiasm escaped his lips on the subject of the British Empire; never, even by accident, until to-day. It is a matter of rejoicing that he should have gone so far as to admit, as he did very candidly, that the policy of giving Preference on articles of food was not one to which he was opposed because it took the form, not of adding to the burden of the British people but of a reduction of the burden which rested upon them. That has been one of the arguments long sustained by those who support the Government, and I certainly accept to the full the admission the right hon. Gentleman has made upon that subject. It is true that he threw buckets of cold water all around him, lest this single spark of enthusiasm should get too strong a hold, but I think that even in this small admission we must still recognise the glimmer of a small advance. The House, has almost forgotten the once so-called Economy Bill.
It never can forget it.
I feel, I suppose, like a great many hon. Members, that we have been through such an ordeal in the last three weeks that one has to look up the records of what occurred beforehand to see where we were in the controversies in which we were engaged. How quickly any real trial effaces imaginary grievances? When you are hurtling along in the rapids of Niagara you do not worry very much about the rate at which you hired the canoe. How very lame and inappropriate the lurid language which was used a month ago about the Economy Bill now seems in contrast with the real and momentous events through which we have passed and are still passing! When we read the Debates which took place only a month ago, the language of indignation, real or simulated, appears to me as though one saw a number of revellers coming home from a fancy dress ball in broad daylight.
The need of economy, so far from having been diminished by what has taken place, has been greatly increased. I have directed the circulation by the Treasury of a Paper enjoining upon all Departments the need of resuming, without a moment's delay, that strict financial accounting and scrutiny which is necessarily interrupted or relaxed in a period of public emergency. It is perfectly certain that additional efforts to reduce expenditure and to effect savings must be made in consequence of all the waste that has taken place in the last month. The right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), who moved this Amendment yesterday, told us that he thought we ought to make an overhead cut in the expenditure upon armaments of £5,000,000 a year progressively for three years. I did not think that was an unreasonable manner to approach this question. Last year, my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for War and the First Lord of the Admiralty between them succeeded in effecting a reduction in their two Departments to that amount, and we hope that the joint consideration of the Estimates which is to be undertaken, and the careful balancing of one form of military expenditure against another, will have the effect of securing further reductions. Compared with some claims and demands which are made upon us I welcome the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and the figures which he mentioned as being, in my opinion, well within the reasonable limit of practical endeavour. That is all I will say upon the subject of expenditure.
The rest of the Debate to which we have listened has been occupied mainly with the varying views put forward on the Betting Duty. The criticisms of that Duty have followed almost exactly the line which those who framed the Duty foresaw from the beginning. We have heard four distinct lines of argument, each of which has found its effective spokesman. There has been the horrible increase of betting through its recognition, and there has been the horrible decrease of betting through its taxation. We have had the hon. Member for Exeter (Sir E. Newman) using the argument, "Do not touch the evil thing." I must admit that he used that argument in a modified form. He said, in effect, "Do not touch the evil thing, not because it is an evil thing—it is not an evil thing—but because there are a lot of worthy though mistaken people who think it is evil, and you must consider their feelings, although they are mistaken, on a matter of this kind." Side by side with that argument we have had the argument of the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey), "Away with all hypocrisy! Go the whole hog! Face the whole problem of lotteries and gambling in a manful spirit, and let us sweep away the obstruction which at present exists upon the free action of the people in this sphere!" Those are arguments which anyone can see are mutually destructive. We have only to leave the champions of these arguments to pair off one against each other, to cancel out their respective contentions, and meanwhile the rest of the House and the rest of the country, which in vast majority has made up its mind on this subject, will be able to get on with the passing of the tax into law.
I must repeat and make perfectly plain what is the policy of His Majesty's Government. We propose no alteration in the law of betting. We make nothing legal that is now illegal. We diminish in no way the repressions that exist against betting. We increase the repressions. We institute for the first time a repression in regard to credit betting, and, of course, where street betting is concerned, it will be liable, not only to the existing penalties, but to the Customs penalty in addition. We are budgeting for a diminution of £50,000,000 in the volume of betting. I estimated on the basis of a diminution of £50,0000,00 in the amount of betting, and after making that diminution we expect a revenue of £6,000,000; a revenue which when I proposed the duty we needed, and which under present circumstances we need far more.
We have no intention whatever of being drawn away, in the Committee discussions which will follow, from this safe and carefully-considered middle ground on which the Government stand. Nothing will induce us to yield to the appeals of those who say, "Be logical. Deal with the whole field of betting. Legalise it and tax it uniformly throughout." Nothing will induce us, for the sake of logic and for the sake of giving satisfaction to that love for perfect symmetry which is inherent in the human mind, to leave the safe position which we have with care and consideration adopted. Nor shall we withdraw, because of opposition which is mutually destructive, from the perfectly sensible, reasonable and proper policy of making persons who at present bet to any extent, with every facility that the law, civilisation and the State and science can afford to them, pay a moderate contribution in the shape of a luxury tax for the upkeep of the revenue in respect of the excitement in which they indulge.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) made a speech yesterday which not only held the attention of the House but encouraged the spirit of the House as well. I, personally, was glad to hear his testimony to the establishment of the gold standard as having been a necessary and success- ful measure of public policy. The right hon. Gentleman did not wait until now, when we can see by what has happened here and by contrast what is happening on the Continent, how essential it is to have a sound currency policy, but stood up in his place in this House when the Measure was first discussed and clearly and strongly committed himself to it. The right hon. Gentleman proceeded to examine what has happened; what losses have been inflicted on the country during the recent general strike. The £750,000 which I have stated as the figure of Government expenditure is only the figure of the Supplementary Estimate which I shall have at a later stage to place before the House. It only represents the direct expenditure of the Government. I have given that figure, but I have every reason to believe that the actual figure will be substantially less. There remains the question of the loss of trade, the immense loss of trade, and the resulting loss to the revenue. On that also I have recently made a statement. The right hon. Gentleman took the figure of £30,000,000 as his estimate of the loss to the producing trades of the country during the period of the general strike.
It may be more, but if we take it at £30,000,000, we have, before we can calculate the effect on the Budget of the loss of £30,000,000 of trade, to consider the relation of the profit to the output. There is, of course, the loss due to the profit not being made, and there is the loss by works standing idle and the overhead charges continuing without any return. Then there is the cost of restarting, and I do not think it is excessive to say that a loss of £30,000,000 in trade represents a loss of £10,000,000 in profits, and a loss of £10,000,000 in profits represents a loss of £2,000,000 in Income Tax. But even so it would not affect this year's Budget, for this year's Income Tax is based on the average of the three preceding years. But it will affect the calculation for next year and make it all the more necessary that we should have these taxes which, although they may yield very little in the first year, will come in a timely manner to our aid next year. So far as indirect taxation is concerned a stoppage for only a fortnight does not sensibly affect consumption. Strike pay and savings, the credit given by email shops and the benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act, all tend to bridge so small a gap. It is only if you prolong the process so that all these aids and protections and palliatives disappear that you are getting the real cutting effects of a diminishing consumption which will affect the revenue.
Moreover, the estimates on which the Budget is framed are not fair weather estimates. They are estimates framed in a cautious spirit, because the sky was dark, the glass falling and the storm, by many signs, announcing its steady approach. I am glad it was so. We can say that our finance is in a sound position and capable of riding through a prolonged and very rough gale. Therefore, I repeat, if the stoppage of the coalfields is brought to an end within the present month, there would no need for any supplementary Budget or any extra taxation in the present year. There remains the injury to the national wealth, and here again the injury to the national wealth is reparable or irreparable according to the length of the stoppage. If the stoppage is limited to a month, or is limited as the general strike was, to a fortnight, it may, by extra effort, by overtime, by more regular employment and by employing more people, be all caught up in the course of the 12 months. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the recuperative power of this country so long as the injury is not too deep. But let us never forget that the coal stoppage is still continuing. Some of the newspapers, so glad to recover their voice again, are giving themselves over to rejoicing, while at the same time this most serious and anxious fact of the arrest of the whole of our national fuel-producing industry continues and is aggravated from day to day.
I am not going into the past controversy, but what becomes of the argument we heard, that we were all on the point of settling this matter when, unhappily, the Government plunged the nation into the struggle by its precipitate action! The old conflict and dispute still continues and is not adjusted at the present moment. Two or three weeks stoppage is recoverable, eight or 10 weeks will make a deep mark on the livelihood of the whole people, 12 or 14 weeks will probably mean that it will be two or three years before the country can recover. These are facts which we must face. It is the length of the stoppage that matters. A prolonged stoppage of the coal trade means that a process of decay is at work on every vital economic process in this country. Our industries are not like healthy growing plants, but like cut flowers in a vase. The increase of unemployment of 700,000 or 800,000 is tragic when we consider with what hope and joy we marked every week the recovery of 20,000 or 30,000 from the ranks of the unemployed, when we thought better times were in sight; and it is now all to be swept away in the abyss—[ Interruption ]. I do not wish to dwell upon all these matters, but the outlook is not only grave but grim. We must face it, if it is necessary, with the same resolution as we are accustomed in this country to face all serious difficulties. Anything is better than to allow our industries to get into an uneconomic condition. Anything is better than to allow an industry, in which masters and men so manage their affairs that they are in a tangle, in an absolute deadlock, to quarter themselves indefinitely upon the general taxpayer. [ Interruption. ] They should face the difficulty, for it will be grossly unjust to agriculture, and to every other trade, if we were to commit ourselves to a prolonged policy of subsidy. Everybody knows that it would only mean retaliation by Germany and other countries, and after the subsidy they would be left in no better position than before.
There is nothing for it but to face the facts as well as we possibly can, otherwise, once committed to an unsound basis for our national industry, sooner or later steps would have to be taken to retrace and under conditions even more painful and wasteful than those with which we are confronted and may, unhappily, still be confronted. Let us hope that a better solution will be reached, for if no good solution is reached then there is great suffering ahead for all of us. If there is to be suffering ahead let it be for all; not only the State and the community, not only the miners; all must bear their share of the suffering. All will have to bear it. But let us hope that we may be relieved at this moment when it is not too late, when no vital injury has been done from what will, unquestionably, be one of the greatest injuries ever inflicted by any nation upon itself. I have only this to say in conclusion, the Budget, such as it is, has not been seriously attacked. The treatment of the Road fund is admitted to be reasonable and moderate. The Betting Duty strikes a universal difference of individual opinion, but marshals no coherent opposition. The Silk Duties of last year have been vindicated by experience, and the shortening of the period of the beer credit has been generally applauded. Imperial Preference is regarded as having taken a genuine forward movement, and the provision for the increased Sinking Fund has given as confidence at a time when confidence is so much needed.
The Budget has followed the lines of necessity. It was the only way to meet unavoidable expenditure without either unsound finance or onerous new taxation. It meets our present requirements, it provides a margin for the future. Nothing has been strained, no unsound element has been deliberately or consciously introduced into our calculations. It provides us a successful exit from the immense
difficulties of finance in which we found ourselves last year. A deficit of £40,000,000 has been by new taxation and newly-discovered resources or economies converted into a surplus of £14,000,000. There is an easement in prospect for next year, and the only question to which we do not know the answer is whether that easement next year will be used in relief of the taxpayer, and in particular of industry and the great basic industries of this country which employ large numbers of men—it is a question whether that relief can be made—or whether it will have to be squandered in meeting the loss of a prolonged coal stoppage. That is the choice which lies before the nation as a whole at the present time. It is not too late. There is prosperity, with wise decisions and with goodwill—[ Interruption ]—but whatever the decision may be, we must not forget that things are what they are and consequences will be what they will be.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 324; Noes, 117.
Division No. 222.] AYES. [3.0 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Ainsworth, Major Charles Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Curzon, Captain Viscount Albery, Irving James Buckingham, Sir H. Dalkeith, Earl of Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bullock, Captain M. Davies, Dr. Vernon Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Burman, J. B. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Burton, Colonel H. W. Dawson, Sir Philip Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Drewe, C Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Butt, Sir Alfred Eden, Captain Anthony Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Elliot, Captain Walter E. Atholl, Duchess of Calne, Gordon Hall Ellis, R. G. Atkinson, C. Campbell, E. T. Elveden, Viscount Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Cassels, J. D. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Balniel, Lord Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Banks, Reginald Mitchell Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Everard, W. Lindsay Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Fairfax, Captain J. G. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Chapman, Sir S. Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Fermoy, Lord Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Chilcott, Sir Warden Fielden, E. B. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Christie, J. A. Ford, Sir P. J. Bennett, A. J. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Foster, Sir Harry S. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Clarry, Reginald George Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Berry, Sir George Clayton, G. C. Fraser, Captain Ian Betterton, Henry B. Cobb, Sir Cyril Frece, Sir Walter de Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Freemantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Blades, Sir George Rowland Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Glyn, Major R. G. C. Boothby, R. J. G. Cooper, A. Duff Goff, Sir Park Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Cope, Major William Gower, Sir Robert Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Couper, J. B. Grant, J. A. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Courtauld, Major J. S. Greene, W. P. Crawford Brassey, Sir Leonard Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Gretton, Colonel John Briggs, J. Harold Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Grotrian, H. Brent Briscoe, Richard George Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Guest, Capt Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N) Brittain, Sir Harry Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Gunston, Captain D. W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) MacIntyre, Ian Savery, S. S. Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) McLean, Major A. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) MacMillan, Captain H. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) Hammersley, S. S. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts., Westb'y) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Harland, A. Macquisten, F. A. Shepperson, E. W. Harrison, G. J. C. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Skelton, A. N. Hartington, Marquess of Makins, Brigadier-General E. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Malone, Major P. B. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine, C.) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Smithers, Waldron Haslam, Henry C. Margesson, Captain D. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Hawke, John Anthony Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Meller, R. J. Sprot, Sir Alexander Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Merrfman, F. B. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Meyer, Sir Frank Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'el and) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Hills, Major John Waller Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Strickland, Sir Gerald Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Moore, Sir Newton J. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Holland, Sir Arthur Morden, Colonel W. Grant Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Holt, Captain H. P. Moreing, Captain A. H. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sykes. Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Murchison, C. K. Templeton, W. P. Hopkins, J. W. W. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Nelson, Sir Frank Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mosslay) Neville, R. J. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Tinne, J. A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N). Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Hume, Sir G. H. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Nuttall, Ellis Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Huntingfield, Lord Oman. Sir Charles William C. Waddington, R. Hurd, Percy A. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Wallace, Captain D. E. Hurst, Gerald B. Pennefather, Sir John Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Penny, Frederick George Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Warrender, Sir Victor Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Perring, Sir William George Waterhouse, Captain Charles Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Watts, Dr. T. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Wells, S. R. Jacob, A. E. Phillpson, Mabel Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pilcher, G. White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pilditch, Sir Philip Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Kindersley, Major Guy M. Price, Major C. W. M. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) King, Captain Henry Douglas Radford, E. A. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Raine, W. Winby, Colonel L. p. Knox, Sir Alfred Ramsden, E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Lamb, J. O. Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Wise, Sir Fredric Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Reid, D. D. (County Down) Withers, John James Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wolmer, Viscount Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Womersley, W. J. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Ropner, Major L. Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Loder, J. de V. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Looker, Herbert William Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Lord, Walter Greaves- Rye, F. G. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Lougher, L. Salmon, Major l. Wragg, Herbert Lowe, Sir Francis William Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sandeman, A. Stewart TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Lumley, L. R. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Commander B. Eyres Monsell and Colonel Gibbs. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sanderson, Sir Frank Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sandon, Lord
NOES. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hlllsbro') Buchanan, G. Cay, Colonel Harry Ammon, Charles George Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Dennison, R. Attlee, Clement Richard Cape, Thomas Duncan, C. Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Charleton, H. C. Dunnico, H. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Cluse, W. S. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Barnes, A. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Barr, J. Compton, Joseph Gosling, Harry Batey, Joseph Connolly, M. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Beckett, John (Gateshead) Cove, W. G. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Briant, Frank Crawfurd, H. E. Greenali, T. Broad, F. A. Dalton, Hugh Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Bromley, J. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Groves, T. March, S. Sullivan, J. Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Montague, Frederick Sutton, J. E. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Morris, R. H. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Oliver, George Harold Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Hardie, George D. Paling, W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Harris, Percy A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thurtle, E. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Ponsonby, Arthur Tinker, John Joseph Hayes, John Henry Potts, John S. Townend, A. E. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Varley, Frank B. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Riley, Ben Viant, S. P. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Rose, Frank H. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Salter, Dr. Alfred Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Scrymgeour, E. Welsh, J. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sexton, James Westwood, J. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Whiteley, W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Wilkinson, Ellen C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Kelly, W. T. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Kennedy, T. Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Lansbury, George Slesser, Sir Henry H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Lawrence, Susan Smillie, Robert Windsor, Walter Lawson, John James Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wright, W. Livingstone, A. M. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Lowth, T. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Lunn, William Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— MacNeill-Weir, L. Stephen, Campbell Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles Edwards.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday, 1st June.
Adjournment (Whitsuntide)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Industrial Situation
Government Departments
No apology is necessary from me in asking the House, even at this hour in the Session, to give its attention to the question which I shall bring to its notice. I desire to bring before the House some cases of victimisation arising out of the recent general stoppage in industry. I admit frankly that, since we gave notice that we proposed to raise this subject, the position has somewhat improved. When the matter was considered by the Executive of the Labour party, reports were coming to us from different parts of the country of a very serious departure from both the letter and the spirit of the repeated declarations of the Prime Minister. These reports were not confined to cases of private employers, but included also some very serious statements with regard to some of the Government departments. Though, as I have said, the position has somewhat improved, I regret exceedingly that with regard to private employers, and particularly with regard to Government departments, we have to call attention at this hour to some serious positions which have been created. I think the House was entitled to expect that every effort would be made in the Government departments to have a resumption of work in the spirit of the excellent statements made on two days in succession by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government. In order to show how serious the departure has been, I will take first the position of established employés under the Board of Admiralty at Deptford. I have here an order which, I think, was only issued today. It opens with the statement:
"The action of these established men was a breach not only of their contracts of employment, but also of their obligation to render good and faithful service, on the strength of which men on the established list are given present and prospective advantages not applicable to Admiralty employés generally."
It then goes on to state the position, and to show the extent to which they would be mulct by the action they had taken. Then the Board makes this statement:
"The Board, however, having regard to all the circumstances, are prepared to condone completely the action of the established men who returned to their duty before the conclusion of the strike. They are also willing to re-enter on the establishment all other established men concerned, except one, who, after investigation, is considered to have committed definite acts of misconduct in improperly instigating men in this breach of the regulation, and who will be discharged from the service for this misconduct."
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members say "Hear, hear!" without regard to the service which this man has rendered, without regard to his previous character, without regard to the fact that this is the very first charge that has ever been made against him, without regard to the fact that he entered the service during the earlier stages of the Great War. All these things are to be lost sight of, and without knowing the facts hon. Members are prepared to say, "Hear, hear!" to this dismissal. But that is not all:
"Readmission to the establishment, however, must be subject to a signed declaration by each individual concerned, recognising that by his recent action he wrongfully broke his contract of employment, and his obligation to give good and faithful service and undertaking not to commit any breach in future.
Readmission to the establishment will necessarily involve the issue of fresh Civil Service certificates, and the proper steps will have to be taken to obtain these.
In the ordinary course such a breakdown in established service involves forfeiture of all previous service for pension, but in the present instance this condition will be waived as follows:
On re-entry on the establishment men who, under the regulations, have forfeited more than 15 years' established time, will be allowed to count such previous time, less four years.
Those who have forfeited more than 10 years' and less than 15 years' established time, will be allowed to count such previous time, less three years.
Those who have forfeited more than two years' and less than 10 years' established time, will be allowed to count such previous time, lees two years.
Those who have forfeited less than two years' established time will not be allowed to count that time."
That may be what hon. Members would regard as strict and good Admiralty discipline, but it cannot be said to be a loyal carrying out of the Prime Minister's pledge. That is not all. I have here the names of 14 victimised men in connection with another Government Department, namely, the Army Victualling Department at Deptford. [HON. MEMBERS: "The same place!"] It is not quite the same Department as that to which I have been referring, because it is under another authority. I am only asking the First Lord of the Admiralty to deal with his own cases, and this case comes under the War Department. Five men have been reinstated, and the remaining 14 have been denied all reinstatement.
What had they been doing?
They went on strike. I hope the head of the Department in charge will tell us anything more that they have done, other than going on strike. I know of nothing else that those men have done other than going on strike, and it is sufficient for my purpose that they have not been reinstated. Here is another case.
What is the difference between those men and the police who were not reinstated when the right hon. Gentleman himself was Home Secretary?
There is this very conspicuous difference, that when we had to deal with them, it was five years after the period at which they went on strike. But we are dealing now with cases occurring within a few hours after the calling off of the general stoppage, and we are dealing with them in the light of the appeals to which I have referred, made from the Treasury Bench two days in succession, and which, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Brighton (Sir C. Rawson), I will quote in a moment. Here is a case—because I want to remind the House that the Prime Minister said he would not be a party to reductions of wages or increases of hours being forced in connection with this dispute—in connection with His Majesty's Stationery Office. A man was asked to report for work this morning; he was given, not the same van that he had been driving before, at a wage of 69s. 6d., but other work at 61s. 6d., or a reduction of 8s. per week. These are the cases in connection with Government Departments.
The other cases to which I have referred are in connection, first of all, with the London County Council. I have a very bad case, I think, of two men who did not go on strike. They remained at the post of duty, but in a day or two they were asked to undertake the work of the men who had left their employment. They were two foremen, and they very properly said that they could not possibly undertake that particular work. According to my information, they said that if the proper members of the staff could be obtained to do the work, they would carry on their supervisory work. Because they refused to take the work of those who had left, however, they were dismissed. The effort has been made to secure their reinstatement, and the County Council Tramways Department has offered to reinstate them, in one case at a reduction from £6 8s. 1d. per week to £3 5s. per week and the loss of his house, and in the other case, according to my information, at about half his former wage. I think that also is a very serious case of victimisation.
I now come to the case of the members of the Scottish Typographical Association, which involves some 500 or 600 men. Quite a considerable number of the Press in Scotland, including some of the most important and influential Scottish newspapers, have refused, I believe, to enter into negotiations with the Scottish Typographical Association, and not only have they refused to take back men to their former positions in newspaper printing establishments which were regarded as what we call society houses, but they have decided to victimise every one of their trade union employes unless they are prepared to leave the unions and become employed as non-union men. [An HON. MEMBER: "Quite right too!"] That we regard as a very serious case indeed.
Then there is the case of the Kibble Omnibus Company, a company that has had powers given to it, I believe, by this House to run in North-East Lancashire, and having depots at Blackburn, Burnley, Wigan, and Preston. They have laid down conditions that are unlike the conditions that were associated with the former employment, and they have compelled the men to forfeit 48 hours' pay of the week's wages which the company held in hand when the stoppage took place, and I understand they are compelling their employés to forfeit their holidays without pay.
Have they broken their contract?
That, also, we regard as a serious case of victimisation. I have cases here in connection with the firm of Messrs. D. and W. Gibbs, soap manufacturers, at Wapping, and I have a case in connection with W. H. Smith and Son, Works Department, Strand House, London. Here very serious victimisation is taking place, and as a result of the attitude which this firm has taken up, I believe I am right in saying that the whole of the paper workers are still out on strike. I have a case here of a firm at Mark Lane, which has taken up the attitude that it will not negotiate with the union, though the men who left their employment, after the strike had been going for two or three days, were men who had splendid records of service during the War, and most of whom had been employed in connection with mine-sweeping operations and other hazardous employment arising out of the War. Then I have received a telegram of a dispute continuing at Eastman's, Acton Vale, London, because of the threat to victimise one of the most prominent of the workmen, who was a prominent official in connection with his trade union. Other cases will, I have no doubt, be given by hon. Members behind me, particularly affecting their own organisations.
I said when I began that the response had been very good, and that an improvement had set in during the last day or two. I am quite sure that every Member of this House must, having regard to the statements made by the Prime Minister, regret that the response has not been altogether universal, and for Government Departments to be in the position that they can be charged, as I think I have shown they can, with refusing to give effect to the Prime Minister's position, stated two days in succession, and stated most emphatically, is, I think, not what we would have expected from Government Departments. It seems to me that this talk of goodwill and co-operation for the future benefit of industry, this talk of returning to work and forgetting the past, without malice and without victimisation, is merely empty words. I think the House is entitled to expect from the heads of the Government Department to-day a very definite statement, that as far as Government employment is concerned, both the letter and the spirit of the Prime Minister's declaration will immediately be honoured, if only to put themselves right with their own employés, and, secondly, for the purpose of exercising a moral influence upon the other employers to come into line.
The House will allow me, perhaps, to say that a number of Members have given me notice that they desire to raise particular cases in their constituencies. The time is short, and I hope they will have regard to one another.
The right hon. Gentleman said quite truly that there was no reason for apology on his part in bringing this very grave matter before the House. I recognise it is a matter not only of gravity, but, at the present moment, I may say it is to me, at all events, a very painful subject. Some of my right hon. Friends at the head of Departments to whom reference has been made by the right hon. Gentleman will deal with those cases, and the only reason I have intervened at the moment is that, as it is impossible for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to be here at this moment, and as the Civil Service is in a certain way associated with the office I hold, I thought it right before my right hon. Friends dealt with specific cases, I should say something on the general subject which the right hon. Gentleman has raised. I cannot admit for a moment that there has been any departure from the pledge which the Prime Minister has given on this subject. I would like to recall what the Prime Minister said in this House on the 14th May. He said: and service to any ordinary private employer. I am only making this as a general observation, and I hope I shall not say anything which will be offensive to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I think we must draw that distinction. After all, those who serve in a Government Department owe an allegiance to the Government. I am not speaking of this particular Government, of course, but of the Government of the day, the Government of the country. When a great crisis occurs like that through which we have just come, and when a number of men engaged in the service of the State are also connected with great trade associations in the country, and take such action as was recently taken, it is quite obvious that those men are placed in a very difficult position, because there is then brought into play a conflict between two allegiances—the allegiance which they owe to the Government, and the allegiance which they owe to the trade organisation to which they belong. We recognise that that imposes a great difficulty upon them, but when the great choice comes to be made as between those two allegiances, I can hardly understand that any Member of the House of Commons would deny that the more imperative of the two allegiances is that which is owing to the State and the Government, and that if they have to make that very difficult and embarrassing choice, to them, it is their paramount duty to serve the State, no matter what may occur to any other association to which they may belong.
That, I believe, is a relevant consideration, and it is of very great application when you come to deal with those who are actually established civil servants, who not only owe an allegiance to the State, but are in a very special and privileged position as far as industrialism is concerned. They have very valuable pension rights which, of course, it would be very foolish and very damaging to themselves to sacrifice, and the fact that they are in that privileged position as established servants with pensionable rights increases the deep obligation of the allegiance which they owe. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with some cases—there are, happily, few —of established servants of the State who, as I submit, made the wrong choice between the two allegiances which they owe. When a man deliberately, whether through bad, misleading leadership, or some foolish notion of loyalty, whatever it may be, at a critical moment breaks his allegiance to the State, his contract to the State, does the right hon. Gentleman really maintain that, as a matter of right and justice, that man is to be put immediately back into the same place as if nothing had happened, placed on exactly the same footing as that of the large body of his comrades who have acted differently, who have observed their higher allegiance, and that any sort of penalty, any reduction of the smallest amount from either his pay or his pension rights is a matter so out-rageous, that it has to be brought up in this House as an example of the violation of the Prime Minister's pledge?
Yes, that is my position.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that statement. It is quite right that we should all know exactly where we stand. I am going to deal in a moment with what the Government are actually doing. I want to arrive at an agreement on principle. All I can say is that that is a position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman which we on this side of the House, as far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, cannot accept. We feel exactly the contrary. Apart from what the Government may do to carry out the spirit of the Prime Minister's undertaking, and the spirit of the Prime Minister's pledge, we hold that, as far as strict justice and right are concerned, these men would have no cause of complaint if they were summarily dismissed from the service But we are not doing that; we are doing something very different.
Let me first of all give to the House some idea of the numbers engaged, because I think this is material. After all, the number of men who came out on strike in Government industrial employment, although positively a large number, was comparatively a small number. Out of 125,000 men engaged, 12,600 came out on strike. Of these 12,600 about 9,000 returned to duty before the general strike was called off leaving only about 3,600. Out of those 3,600, 2,570 have since been re-engaged, so that the House will see that we are only dealing here out of a total number of some 125,000 men with about 1,000 men. Numbers, I agree, are not everything. Justice is justice whether it is done to one or a million. Injustice is injustice, also, whether done to one or a million. Yet I do think it is important that the House should realise the relative number of those with whom we are concerned. Of the men who have not yet, been reinstated there are 831 under the Stationery Office, 64 under the War Office, and 197 under the Admiralty. My right hon. colleagues will deal with their respective cases. But perhaps I may deal now with the case identified by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Let us examine the complaint in regard to the Stationery Office. The man concerned was the driver of a ton motor van, and his wages were 69s. 6d. per week. He has been reinstated. He is now the driver of a 7 cwt. Ford van.
Buy British goods.
As the right hon. Gentleman has rightly said, his wages are now 61s. 6d. The complaint was of the fall in this man's wages. The reason for that is that the present wages are appropriate to the weight of the vehicle of which he has charge. At all events the way the matter has been put is not quite the correct way to put it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not put him on a hand barrow?"] I want to make this point. The van from which he deserted has been assigned to another man who took up this duty, and who has been maintained in the post. Consequently, it is quite strictly in accordance with the principle of the Prime Minister's pledge that the one man should be kept, while the other man has been reinstated in an inferior capacity. Just let me remind the House what really was the Prime Minister's pledge to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. It was that after the general strike was ended His Majesty's Government
"will take effectual measures to prevent the victimisation by the trade unions of any man who remains at work or who may return to work; and no settlement will be agreed to by His Majesty's Government which does not provide for this for a lasting period and for its enforcement, if necessary, by penalties. No man who does his duty loyally to the country in the present crisis will be left unprotected by the State from subsequent reprisals."
An addition was made to that pledge by the Prime Minister—
"Every man who does his duty by the country and remains at work or returns to work during the present crisis will be protected by the State from loss of trade union benefits, superannuation allowances, or pension. His Majesty's Government will take whatever steps are necessary, in Parliament or otherwise, for this purpose."
That is to be read with the appeal which the Prime Minister has made to employers throughout the country. The House will remember that the Prime Minister was careful to—
Will the right hon. Gentleman read on further. The Prime Minister said he would be no party to using this particular occasion for a reduction of wages or an increase of hours.
That was part of a speech I quoted and where I pointed out the difficulty of reinstatement, and of reconciling that with the duty, that Government employés, owe to the Departments and to the State. I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House exactly what has happened in order to carry that out. The men who remained at work or returned to work before the general strike was called off are to be given first preference for employment. Volunteer workers, if they are efficient, and desire to remain, are not to be displaced to make way for strikers. This principle is a sound one and consistent with the Prime Minister's very definite pledge and which we regard as fundamental and which is to be applied in all cases.
They are not taking the places of the miners.
The second matter is this, and is, I think, essential, especially in Government employment; and that is that reinstatement must be dependent upon the work being there for the men to do. We are always talking about unemployment, but we cannot call a man back, however much we may desire to reinstate him, if his coming back is to put him in a redundant position. Subject to that, the Departmental authorities concerned have been instructed, in pursuance of the general policy enunciated by the Prime Minister, to enter into discussion without delay through the recognised agencies of the representatives of the strikers, with a view to the resumption of work and the reinstatement of the men except those whose actions during the strike—this, I fancy, covers at least one of the cases—by way of intimidation or violence has been demonstrably such as to render it undesirable in the interests of the Department that they should be continued in the service, and who must be discharged. Finally, the selection of those who were strikers and who are to be continued in Government employment—I do not think anybody will quarrel with this rule—shall be not according to seniority, but according to ability and efficiency. The most efficient would be brought back into the service.
Carrying out those principles, we then come to what is not a matter of strict right or obligation, but what is being done by the Government to carry out the generous spirit of the Prime Minister's declaration. As an act of grace, and without prejudice, the Departments are authorised, whenever satisfactory arrangements have been made for the re-engagement of strikers, to do these things: firstly, to men immediately re-engaged; secondly, to men who cannot immediately be re-engaged biit who are considered eligible for re-employment in due course; and thirdly, to men for whose services in the Departments concerned there is no further use—to pay to all these categories the balance of pay withheld by reason of their failure to give contractual notice of termination of employment. There is no sort of obligation to pay that money to any one of those classes concerned, and I think this is signal proof of the endeavour to carry out the spirit of the Prime Minister's declaration.
Further, men who failed to return to duty before the strike was called off will be reinstated as and when employment becomes available for them, subject to the condition that, where a formal settlement is still necessary, the men's accredited representatives must sign a declaration that the men who went on strike without notice thereby committed a wrongful act. Again, I venture to submit, with all respect, to hon. Gentlemen opposite, and to the House as a whole, that having regard to those men who owed a definite allegiance to the State, as represented by the Government of their day, and who deliberately, for however high-minded motives it may be, have broken their contractual obligations, the very least the State can do, before taking them back and forgiving and forgetting, is to see that at all events the fact that they have acted wrongfully shall be put on record.
Finally—and I think is still further proof of the spirit which is being shown—in the calculation of gratuities under Section 4 of the Superannuation Act, the break in the service will not entail forfeiture of previous service and no penal deduction will be made, notwithstanding the failure of any of the men to satisfy any of the contractual obligations into which they have entered. I really do not think that, these being the principles and the rules by which the Departments of the State are approaching this very difficult problem of reinstatement—
If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, how does that last Clause harmonise with the acts of the Admiralty, by which it was definitely broken?
I do not know what is being done in any particular Department. I must leave my right hon. Friend the First Lord to deal with that. I am only giving the general principles which, as far as the Treasury is concerned, were laid down; but of course that does not necessarily interfere with the legitimate discretion of the heads of individual Departments to deal with individual cases I have ventured to lay before the House the principles on which we are trying to act. While I am certain none of us in the slightest degree resents or objects to any representations being made or any individual cases being brought (forward where hon. Members think that those principles are not being observed, I would ask them to believe that, although they may not in every respect agree with the principles on which we are acting or the methods by which we are endeavouring to give effect to them—and right hon. Gentlemen opposite and I differ on one central point which I have already touched upon—we must, I think, recognise that on an occasion of this kind we cannot expect to be entirely in agreement. There may be differences of opinion on this point, but I can assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that as far as the Treasury and, I think, all other Departments are concerned at the present time, we are, as I think I have shown, acting with great forbearance. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I am endeavouring to put my own view to hon. Gentlemen opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the Prime Minister's view?"] We think we are acting with great forbearance and with a large spirit of generosity—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"]—in carrying out to the full, both in spirit and the letter, the pledges which have been given by the Prime Minister, and I hope the House will support us in that action.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me for a moment. It is rather important, because the Treasury has given more or less instructions to the other departments. From the last Clause the right hon. Gentleman read, he indicated very clearly that there should be no forfeiture with regard to superannuation rights. But there has been a clear instance cited, so far as the Admiralty are concerned, where they have departed from the instructions from his own Department.
Possibly it was my own fault that I did not make it quite clear. The principles I was first speaking of apply to established people, and I understand the cases to which he referred are established cases in the Admiralty. The gratuities I am now speaking of are those which are applied to hired employés of the Government who are not in an established position in the Civil Service.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) has made certain references to the case of the Deptford Victualling Yard, and perhaps I may be allowed to explain the position of the Admiralty with regard to that. I should like to say straight away that I think the action of the Admiralty has been conceived with the greatest possible leniency in the treatment of those concerned, compatible with the efficiency of the service. When the strike took place about 450 men went out from the Victualling Yard and the Naval Store Department, of whom 37 were established men and the rest were hired men. When they went out I caused a notice to be posted up informing the established men that, among other disabilities, they were liable to lose their pension rights. I thought it was only fair that they should fully realise that. Four of the established men did return, and as regards those four men they are going on in exactly the same basis as they were before the strike.
4.0 P.M.
With regard to the hired men, I have said that so far as there is employment for them, they are to be taken back and they again will lose nothing at all in the way of wages or gratuities or anything else. So that deals with a very large proportion of those who went out. It is quite true that there may not be at the present time work for the whole of those who went out, and possibly there may not be quite enough for the total number for some little time to come. I have been in touch with representatives of the unions throughout and discussed the matter with them, and they quite understand that as far as there is employment for them these hired men will be taken back, and I have also said that I have no intention of filling up places with other workmen so long as those who are efficient, and who are out owing to the strike are willing to return; so noboby can say anything about hardships in regard to those cases. The right hon. Gentleman has failed entirely to distinguish between the position of the hired men and that of the established men. The established men are established for particular reasons, and they get benefits in consequence. They get pension rights and rights of priority of employment—practically permanent employment—in return for undertakings which they enter into when they receive their certificate of establishment. I will read to the House what they do undertake. One Clause reads: After that, no one can contend that every one of those men has not, plainly and clearly, broken his contract of employment. By that breach of contract they rendered themselves liable to be discharged for having been absent without leave for six days, but the majority of them have not received the penalty to which they were liable. To say that we are wanting in leniency if we give them a smaller penalty is an argument which I do not think will take in anybody in this House. I understand the leaders of the unions have accepted my decision, which I talked to them about yesterday afternoon. The discharged are to be re-engaged, with a new certificate, and the only loss they suffer is some small portion of their pension and, possibly, gratuity rights.
When did those leaders accept the conditions the right hon. Gentleman suggests?
I. only got the message in the last few minutes, but I understand that they did accept them.
One of the leaders happens to be in another part of the building at this moment, and tells me he has not accepted.
Well, then, possibly, I may be wrong; but anyhow, my argument does not depend upon that. I have nothing to show, but, at any rate, I did discuss this matter very fully with the leaders, and I am of opinion that they do not regard this penalty as something which cannot be reasonably defended.
They disagree.
Let the hon. Member speak for himself, I do not know whom he represents. The leaders asked to see me, and I discussed the matter very fully with them yesterday afternoon, and they have been at the Admiralty before. I do not think they agree that there is anything very severe or harsh in terms of this kind, which follow very closely a previous precedent as to the amount the men actually lose. It has also to be remembered that many of these established men who went out on strike did so in direct conflict with the orders of their own unions. We have promised to take no vindictive anti-trade union action in this matter, and our action is, if anything, in support of the leaders of those unions, who told the men not to go out. I venture to think that to have given any less penalty than that would have been quite incompatible with the efficiency of the Service. What is the use, from the Government point of view, of entering into this contract with these men? The only return the Government get from it is that the men are expected to stand by and be loyal; and the men, on their part, get the advantage of practically perpetual employment and pension rights. The establishment is a useless thing if it is to be broken on one side without any kind of penalty being inflicted.
It does not make a man a slave, does it?
Let us discuss this thing from a sensible and reasonable point of view, and as if the hon. Gentleman opposite were himself, as he may be in the future, a member of the Government responsible for the efficiency of the Service.
There remains the case of one man who, the Admiralty have decided, should be discharged. There were three or four men whose conduct required investigation, and it was investigated yesterday by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty. With regard to the others, he came to the conclusion that they were the victims of deception rather than leaders in any attempt to get the men out of work, and it is only this one man who, it has been decided, must be discharged. This man called a meeting inside the works, took the chair at the meeting, urged the men to come out, and told them that the Admiralty workmen at Chatham and Sheerness were also out, which was perfectly untrue. He also admits that he took a definite part in speaking to the men who tried to present themselves for duty in the yards on the following morning, in order to persuade them not to.
Peaceful picketing.
Yes; but the question is the efficiency of the Service. Hon. Gentlemen can hold their own views, but they are not responsible for the efficiency of the Service, and I am, and I am convinced that to reinstate a man of that kind cannot make for the good of the Service, or for the comfort of the men, or for good work. We have heard a great deal about victimisation. I hope, after what I have said, that I have made it quite clear that we have stretched to the extreme limits our right as a Government Department to exercise leniency, and this is the only case in which a man has suffered anything like a serious penalty, and he might have thought, before he did what he did, of the victimisation he was inflicting upon those who left the Service. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, if he had been in my place, could have given no less penalties than those which have been imposed by the Admiralty. They are almost infinitesimal on some of the established men, and as regards the others there are no penalties at all. There was one man who was plainly occupied not only in inciting the men to strike by giving them false intelligence, but inducing them not to return, and nobody responsible for the efficiency of the Service could have acted otherwise than we did.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) has dealt with a case at Deptford under the War Department, and he complained that 18 strikers were now excluded, but he did not give the House any information about those 18 strikers, or why they had been excluded. First of all, the House knows that Deptford is a food supply depot which is very essential for the feeding of His Majesty's Forces. The normal staff is 104, and 22 remained in and 82 went out on strike. Of course, it was necessary to carry on the work of that depot, and volunteers were called in. There were 69 men who volunteered for the work and who were employed in the depot. Most of the volunteers left when the strike was over, but 20 of them desired to remain. They were 20 capable workmen, and they are there now. The reason why the 18 strikers have not been taken back is that 20 volunteers are remaining, and we are now two over the full establishment.
Railway Accident, Edinburgh
I am not going to join in this controversy as far as Government employés are concerned, but I want to say something about victimisation on the railways. Before I do so perhaps I shall be allowed to refer to the subject I tried to raise this morning in regard to the accident which occurred at St. Margarets, Edinburgh, about 10 days ago. I find that the Scottish Office was not to blame for not being able to answer my question this morning, that it was due to a misunderstanding, and that, if there was anyone to blame, it was myself. In this accident, three people were killed. At the public inquiry which was afterwards held, Mr. Stemp, Superintendent of the London and North Eastern Railway, made certain statements reflecting on the humanity of a strike picket in the vicinity, and indicated that these railwaymen were asked to assist the victims of the accident, and that they refused. The railway strike committee immediately issued a very strong denial of these allegations, and gave particulars showing that the statements which had been made by Mr. Stemp could not be borne out. I was hoping that this denial would have been accepted by Mr. Stemp, but, in the "Scotsman" yesterday, there is a further reference to this matter, which is: statements I have referred to were sincerely made by Mr. Stamp, but I believe they were made through a mis-understanding of the real facts of the case. I would ask the Under-Secretary for Health for Scotland to say whether in his opinion it would be possible to have a public inquiry, which the men strongly desire, in order that the facts may be properly investigated and the truth established.
I wish now to call attention to some very definite cases of victimisation on the railways in Edinburgh. The facts I have got are in reference to the London and North Eastern Railway Company. My information is that 14 members of the supervisory class of the London and North Eastern Railway in Edinburgh have evidently been marked down by the company for punishment under Clause 4 of the Railway Agreement. I am not going to deal with all the 14 cases, but I will give five of them as examples. I have very definite and accurate particulars of these five cases. I have the names, but would rather describe each case by a letter.
Case A is that of a district inspector who has been refused permission to start work on his old job and has been offered temporary employment as a spare signalman. He has refused the offer and is now at home awaiting the decision of the chief general manager. His pay has been stopped.
Case B is that of a district inspector who has been refused permission to start work on his old job, and has been offered temporary employment as passenger guard. He has refused this offer and is now awaiting the decision of the chief general manager. His pay has also been stopped.
Case C is that of a goods inspector who was refused permission to start work on his old job. He was offered temporary employment as yard inspector and accepted it.
Case D was that of a goods inspector who was refused permission to start work on his old job and was offered temporary employment as as a goods guard, which he accepted.
Case E was that of a yard master who was refused permission to start work and was offered the choice of a signalman's or passenger guard's post as temporary employment. This he refused and his pay was stopped.
I think there is no question at all that these are cases of pure victimisation. It is proposed, I understand, to transfer some of these men to other districts. It is said that some of their posts have already been filled by others. None of the men concerned has yet seen the chief general manager, or been instructed as to how he is to meet him. Clause 4 of the settlement negotiated in London—the terms of which were in humiliating language for the railway-men—gave power for such acts to be done, but I submit that the way in which it is being done is entirely contrary to the spirit of the Prime Minister's statement.
I would like to point out that, while it may have been a very annoying thing for the railway company that the supervisory class showed their sense of comradeship and loyalty so well as they did, it was, perhaps, all to the good as far as public order was concerned. Many of these men of the supervisory class took a keen interest in the strike, and helped to see that it was conducted on strictly orderly lines, and that no violence occurred. I think it was due not a little to their exertions that the results in this respect were so satisfactory.
The men appreciated their action and co-operation, and there will be very deep resentment at the victimisation of which I have given some examples. I do not think it will be in the interests of the railway companies that men should go back to work with this spirit of indignation and of bitterness. It will not be ultimately for the good of the companies, and I think the Prime Minister and the Government would be wise if they impressed on the railway companies that the spirit of no vindictiveness should be carried out, and that we should get back as quickly as possible to that atmosphere of good will which I am sure we all desire. It is no use calling for peace when there is no peace, and I am quite certain that there can be no peace in the railway industry or in any other industry where such cases of victimisation are taking place.
Perhaps I may say a word in answer to the first part of the hon. Member's speech, in reference to the railway accident at St. Margaret's, since, owing to a misunderstanding, his question did not reach the Scottish Office, and, consequently, I was apparently discourteous in not being present in the House this morning when it was asked. I shall certainly convey to the Secretary for Scotland the sense of the hon. Member's speech, and it will be considered, though it is difficult to see where the locus of an inquiry would lie. An inquiry, as the hon. Member knows, was held by the Ministry of Transport to determine the cause of the accident, and, that inquiry being over, I doubt if it would be within the competence of the Ministry of Transport to hold any further inquiry. Whether it would be in the power of the Secretary for Scotland, I am not able to say without consulting him.
May I point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that these remarks to which exception was taken were merely incidental? The inquiry was really held to ascertain the cause of the accident, and no attempt was made at that inquiry to ascertain the truth or otherwise of these statements, or to give an opportunity for them to be rebutted.
That is true, but I have here the letter which was written by the gentlemen who complained of the statements which were made—the Chairman and Secretary of the Strike Committee—wherein they say:
"Near the scene of the accident we had pickets on duty, and they, including trained first-aid men, volunteered to give assistance to the injured. The proffered assistance was not accepted, and an official of the company stated that it was the breakdown gang that was required. Some time later the same official made his appeal for humanity's sake, but before this there were ambulance men, nurses and others on the scene, and it was quite evident that the official desire was to have the wreckage cleared away. Our men were not willing to assist in such work, but they were not deaf, and we claim that railwaymen have never been deaf, to the call of humanity."
It would, therefore, appear, from the statement by the two gentlemen concerned, that an appeal was made to which they found themselves unable to respond, and all I can say is that in such circumstances I cannot at the moment give any pledge that the Secretary for Scotland will find it in his desire, even if it were in his power, to have an inquiry of the nature suggested by the hon. Member.
Officers of Taxes (Strike Circular)
Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have so far addressed the House this afternoon have dealt mainly with individual cases. I should like to raise the larger, and, in my submission, more vital question as to what the Government are going to do with the leaders of the executives of the various unions concerned, who, unlike the individuals of whom we have heard this afternoon, have suffered nothing as the result of the strike, but who are far more responsible for what has taken place. We must all recognise that a great deal can be said in sympathy with those who were dupes, who believed, wrongly, it may be, but quite honestly that, when they were fighting against Parliamentary Government and the liberty of the Press, they were acting on behalf of the miners and showing sympathy with them. Much can be said for the dupes, and still more can be said for those honest rank-and-file who would loyally have stayed at their work, but left their posts simply because, in the existing state of trade union law, they feared for the lives of themselves and their families if they went to work. But nothing can be said on behalf of the real inciters of the general strike, who saved their own skins and left other people to suffer.
I have in my hand a manifesto which was sent by the Association of Officers of Taxes, 95, Belgrave Road, S.W.I, to members of that association—who are civil servants—in all parts of the country. This document was given to me by a loyal member of the association in Manchester, who resented its terms and who regarded it as a dangerous document. This is the original document, with the signatures at the foot in ink. It is dated the 4th May, 1926, and it says:
"Urgent
"The Industrial Crisis
"At the Session held at noon on Saturday"—
that was Saturday the 1st May, the day before the general strike—
"the general secretaries of all affiliated trade unions were called upon to give public replies to two questions put to all affiliated organisations at 12.30 that morning"—
that was by the Trade Union Congress. That is to say, the various associations of civil servants were summoned to a meet-
"whether the association was prepared to place its powers in the hands of the General Council as regards ( a ) calling a general strike of its members, and ( b ) financial aid."
Then follows this passage:
"It may be added that the Civil Service Clerical Association, the Association of Civil Service Sorting Assistants, and the Union of Post Office Workers"—
those are the three chief Civil Service associations—
"gave a plain affirmative reply to both questions."
That is to say, the assertion here is that these three associations of civil servants pledged themselves to hand over their powers of calling a strike of their members, and to hand over their control over finance, to the Trade Union Congress. Then this document goes on to say that, in the case of this particular association, the Association of Officers of Taxes, they have no power under their rules to call a general strike of their members, but they have power to enforce voluntary subscriptions, and they proposed to subscribe the maximum sum they could manage; and then, realising that there might be loyalists among their members, they go on to say:
"Moreover, if the response to this appeal is insufficient to meet the financial calls made upon us as an affiliated organisation, it will be incumbent upon us to consider a financial grant from the Special Purposes Fund under Rule 76 ( e ), which provides for the use of the S.P.F. 'for the protection of the association's interests generally and the defence of its members in times of special emergency.'"
Let us understand what that means. If these civil servants who belong to these associations did not contribute enough to this revolutionary purpose their funds, which were accumulated for the purposes of their association only, were to be filched from them by the executive and handed over to the Trade Union Congress for the purposes of the general strike. That is absolutely illegal and absolutely revolutionary and it naturally created the very greatest discontent amongst the members of the association who were loyal to their engagement of service.
That document does not say anything of the kind. There is no such statement in it, and it is not an illegal document by any means. You ought to know better.
I have the document here and if the hon. Member cares to read it afterwards, I can let him see it.
I have read it before.
I have been long enough in the House when I say I am reading from a document for the House to believe that I am reading from it. As a matter of fact, I have shown it to some of the leaders of the association concerned. The point I am making is that, as far as the members of the association are concerned, it is calculated, deliberate and illegal oppression which is much resented by the loyal members of the association who, according to letters I have received from friends in Manchester and Liverpool, have resigned in many cases rather than continue to belong to an illegal and revolutionary body. I want to turn back to the passage in the document which does not refer to the officers of taxes. This statement is either true or false. It cannot be both. I am told by the Secretary of the Civil Service Clerical Association that it is false. Let us assume that these statements are false. If they are false and these associations did not bind themselves in the way it is alleged they did—
rose —
Hon. Members are by interruption really losing their own chances of joining in the Debate. I am anxious to get in all the points, but I cannot do that if there be continual interruptions.
If they are untrue, the three civil servants whose names I have given the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who signed the document, have been disseminating false and dangerous statements with regard to the position of these civil servants. Their names are known to the heads of the Civil Service, and the question I want to ask is this: Assuming for the moment that these statements are false, why should these three leading trade union officials, who are employés of the Civil Service, not be proceeded against in the same way that humble newsvendors are proceeded against? We have heard lately of a number of cases where very humble folk have been brought into the police court for disseminating false news. If, on the other hand, these statements are true, a very serious situation arises, because if any of the three societies did in fact place all their resources at the disposal of the general strike committee they were undoubtedly committing an offence beside which the magnitude of the attempts of the individuals we have heard of is very small. It is the ringleader whose offence is the greatest, and if action is justified against humble individuals such as we have heard reference made to to-day, it is all the more necessary and vital with regard to persons in responsible positions with whom the Government has been in the habit of negotiating on Civil Service matters.
I think I am on common ground when I say the Civil Service stands above all party and above all politics. One of the secrets of the success of British Government, one of the happy ways in which we get over steps in the national history which might create revolution in other countries, is because we have stability and permanency in the Civil Service. When hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office there was no breach in the happy continuity of the relations between the Government of the day and the civil servants. It is vital for all classes in the State that the Civil Service should keep out of politics. It is still more vital that it keeps out of revolution. The view I take is, so far as the humbler men, the dupes and the rank and file, are concerned, give them the most generous treatment possible, but with regard to the men in responsible positions, trusted men in the employment of the State, while it is the duty of the Government to be merciful, it is also their duty to be just.
It is an unjust thing, when there are so many people about who could carry on the work of the Civil Service with equal efficiency and infinitely greater loyalty, to keep unpunished in their present exalted positions men who have sought to inflict on the great mass of their fellow-countrymen the terrible calamity of chaos, impoverishment and famine.
Maintenance of Supplies (Newcastle)
I will try to keep in mind Mr. Speaker's injunction that we should have regard to the time of the House and consideration for each other. On Thursday, 6th May, I made a very definite statement regarding the position of the Government service at Newcastle-upon-Tyne. I further referred to the subject on Monday, 10th May, and for the benefit of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health I will try to get this thing into its right perspective. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) had referred to Newcastle and to the work of the Chief Commissioner in the Northern area. I was waiting to get in upon Regulation 21 of the Emergency Regulations, which were passing through the House, and the hon. Member's speech reminded me that we had had a wire from Newcastle. I gave the House the contents of the wire which stated that the O.M.S. at Newcastle had broken down, the Chief Commissioner had approached the trade unions and asked their help, the trade unions had agreed to co-operate and were now taking over the essential services and that at Newcastle things were all right. Within two hours of that statement being made the Attorney-General, who is aware that I am row going to make another statement to the House, said he had been on the telephone with the Chief Constable of Newcastle and that there was not the slightest foundation for the statement I had made.
The statement was twice confirmed over the telephone that night and naturally, after that contradiction by the right hon. Gentleman, over the week-end I tried to get all the information I could. I was remaining in London but I communicated with the people at home and got certain information. But despite the fact that that information proved to my mind that what I stated was the absolute truth I did not, on account of the national crisis propose to draw attention to it until the crisis was over. The hon. Member for North Newcastle (Sir N. Grattan-Doyle) on the Monday raised the question in this House by Private Notice, and asked whether there was any truth in my statement. He went so far as to seek to move the adjournment of the House in order that the House might deal with the matter forthwith. In a series of supplementary questions, I enlarged upon the statement which I had made on the Thursday. I asked whether it was true that the Chief Commissioner for the Northern Area (Sir K. Wood) had visited the headquarters of the Strike Committee and had been in consultation with them on the Wednesday and Thursday, and whether he had put a proposal before them which clearly indicated that the service in Newcastle had broken down. In reply, the Controller of the Household said there was not the slightest foundation for any of these statements, and that I ought to be ashamed of myself for repeating them. If it is ever my fate to contradict any hon. Member in this House, I should be ashamed of myself if I had no better proof and no better grounds to go upon than had the Controller of the Household.
I went carefully into this matter on the Monday and the Tuesday. I neglected my duties in this House so that I could get first-hand information. I did not leave it to hearsay. I went to the office of the trade union and interviewed the people primarily concerned, and the evidence which I am going to put before the House is evidence by men who are prepared to come to the Bar of the House and swear that it is correct. I have a copy of the minutes of the Strike Committee for Northumberland and Durham for the Wednesday and the Thursday. I shall be as brief as possible, and will simply read the extracts concerning this matter. The minutes in respect of the Wednesday number 15, but only two of them, Minute 2 and Minute 10 have any reference to this subject. Minute 2 states that Edwards—Mr. Ebbie Edwards, Financial Secretary of the Northumberland miners— Laughter. ] Hon. Members laugh. I would ask hon. Members to remember that it was denied that these meetings had taken place. touch with Tarbit, the delegate, and with the Strike Committee, and eventually he made arrangements which carried on the essential services very well, indeed. Everyone in Newcastle is satisfied that the services were carried on magnificently, but the statement I made that there was any difficulty was denied. The crisis is over, and we are all glad of that, but I put it to the House, and to any hon. or right hon. Gentleman who is to reply—probably the Parliamentary Secretary, who will be able to speak with more authority than any of his colleagues, may reply—that the information I have here proves absolutely that there was serious difficulty in Newcastle at the moment I was speaking in this House. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is going to reply, will ask his colleagues to withdraw the denial they made in this House.
It is not my intention or my desire, nor is it necessary for me, to defend my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health. He is quite capable of taking care of himself, but it is only fair, as the allegation has been made that the Government organisation in Newcastle broke down—I assume the hon. Member refers to the Government organisation when he speaks of the O.M.S., although there is a great difference between the two—that I should reply to the allegation. The Home Secretary received a notification that the hon. Member was going to raise this question this afternoon, and he regrets that he is not able to be in his place to reply. He has asked me to do so on his behalf. The best reply I can make, I think, is to read a letter from the Lord Mayor of New-castle-upon-Tyne to the Home Secretary. The Lord Mayor witnessed the organisation himself from the very commencement. This is what the Lord Mayor said:
"Sir,
I read with amazement the allegations which were made by Mr. Connolly in the House of Commons on Friday, the 7th of May, which are a travesty of the actual position. In the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne the transport services, though interfered with in the earlier stages of the strike, have daily increased in efficiency, and at no time has there been a breakdown."
What is the date of that letter?
It is dated the 11th of May.
"At the present time traffic is absolutely free and unrestricted throughout the whole of the city. His Majesty's subjects are free to pass through the streets unmolested and to transport any article, whether food or otherwise, from any part of the city to any other part." [ Interruption. ]
That is no reply.
I think it is a reply to the charge that the Government organisation had broken down. The Lord Mayor goes on:
"Attempts to restrain the liberty of the subject have been entirely frustrated, and illegal pickets have been driven from streets. It is true that in order to effect this result a great amount of organisation has been necessary, and I desire to pay a sincere tribute to the Civil Commissioner (Sir Kingsley Wood) for the very great assistance which he has rendered to us in preserving inviolate the rights and liberties of our people. I think I am right in affirming that Newcastle-upon-Tyne is as free from interference with the liberty of the subject as any other town in the Kingdom to-day. To no man is denied or deferred either justice or right. This is in great measure due to the unremitting efforts of Sir Kingsley, and the grateful thanks of the community are due to him for his tactful handling of a difficult problem.
I have the honour to be your obedient servant,
ANTONY OATES,
Lord Mayor."
That is, I think, a complete answer to the allegation that the Government organisation broke down. I will leave the personal side of the matter to be dealt with by my hon. Friend.
Naturally, I am anxious to say a word or two on the statements which the hon. Member for Newcastle, East (Mr. Connolly) has seen fit to make. My position as Civil Commissioner, like that of other Civil Commissioners, was a difficult and responsible one, and I must say that I felt considerable resentment when I read in the newspapers what the hon. Member said, and at the same time he did not think fit to visit his consti- tuency in that difficult period. [ Interruption. ] I say that because the hon. Member might have been of some assist ance. The hon. Member's statement to-day is a very different one from that which I read in the Newcastle Press. He stated, in accordance with the report in the local paper, which the hon. Member will agree is not favourable to the Government—
May I ask from what are you quoting?
From the "Newcastle Chronicle," and this is the statement, according to what appeared in that paper:
There is not a word of truth in any of these allegations. At no time, and I challenge anyone who has been in New-castle-on-Tyne or in touch with anybody in Newcastle-on-Tyne to deny it, did the vital services fail. In other words, from the time I reached Newcastle so far from there being any danger of the vital services failing they steadily improved. At the end, as I could demonstrate to the House if necessary, there was not a single person in Newcastle or in the very large district with which I was associated, who in any way was prejudiced or hurt so far as food supplies were concerned. I think that that is not by any means a discreditable record. The hon. Gentleman has referred to certain interviews and certain statements that were made. It is well that I should tell the House exactly what happened, so that the truth may be known. On 3rd May, I am glad to say, the men who were unloading the boats at the docks were carrying on their duties. The transport men had come out, and my officer, to whom largely the credit for the conduct of affairs in Newcastle is due, arranged that immediately the transport workers came out their places should be filled and vehicles be made available. So far from there being any shortage in that direction, we had far too many vehicles without making a requisition for a single one of them.
These men were working, and I was very glad that they were working, and glad to encourage them to do so, because it was the opinion, not only of myself, but of all sound trade unionists in New castle, that it was no part of the policy, at any rate, of the miners to interfere with and hold up the food supplies of the country. But on that evening certain ill-disposed people had gone to a number of the men working at the docks, and were inducing them to break their contracts by giving up their work. I then intimated publicly that if that took place there would be no course for me but to put voluntary labour in the place of those men immediately, to give the necessary police protection, and to remove from the docks any ill-disposed people. My food officer, General Sir Kerr Montgomery, whose name is universally respected in Newcastle, and who received the freedom of the City by the unanimous vote of all sections of the city council, reported to me that Alderman Weir, a very respected trade unionist in the district, president of the Miners' Federation, was of the opinion that there was a considerable misunderstanding as to the Government's position at the docks, and what steps were being taken. He told my officer, and subsequently repeated to me, that he believed the men desired to play the game, that they did not desire to leave the City of Newcastle and that great northern area deprived of food; and he suggested that if I saw the secretaries of the three trade unions concerned, he was confident that no further attempt would be made to interfere with the food supplies of the people. He invited me to see him in his own room at the offices of the Miners' Federation. I saw him, and I explained to those present that, as far as I was concerned, I was there representing the Government Department to see that the food supplies of the city were available for all classes of the community, that under no circumstances would the Government give up that position, but—
At that juncture did you propose dual control with the Government?
No, nor at any other time. I told them that that was my duty—that I was anxious if, as was represented to me, their men were prepared to continue working, to do everything in my power to facilitate their doing so, and that if they had any difficulties they were to explain them to me. I sat patiently for some hours listening to a recital of the difficulties. The only suggestion I made to them, and one which, on reflection, I should make again to-day, was this—that if they found there was any difficulty at the quay in relation to the employment of labour, they were to report it to my officer or to me, and I would immediately deal with it. The reason for that was that certain ill-disposed people, I hope unconnected officially with the trade union movement of the district, were going round and saying that the presence of a destroyer in the harbour meant that naval ratings were to be used, and that the men were to be turned out of their work. That was the position which I adopted, and the position which I would adopt again, notwithstanding whatever misrepresentation may be made as to the result of that interview. I endeavoured to deal fairly with the situation as I found it. At no time was I informed that these gentlemen were members of a strike committee. They gave me their cards, or at least one of them did, and the other two were introduced to me by the president. I gathered that they were secretaries of certain associations.
What were the associations?
I could furnish the names to the hon. Gentleman, though not at the moment. Then they told me that they were going to consult their men. I told them that I should await the reply which they desired to make, but I said that if they were not prepared to work the Government scheme, I would that night see that the docks were properly protected, that all ill-disposed people were removed from the docks, and that if the men did not turn up the next morning, volunteers would take their places. I received a message telling me that they were not prepared to work the Government scheme, and there were some references—I will not mention them now, because I do not want to make any further bad feeling in the matter—to the treatment that would be meted out to people who undertook the work of food supply. Immediately I received that message I did what I said I should do. The docks were cleared, and ill-disposed people were removed. Voluntary labour took the place of the men who refused to work, and from that day to the end of the strike the whole of the work of the food supplies in that district was carried out by voluntary labour under police protection.
That is a statement which I think any hon. Gentleman who has been in the district and knows the position, as some hon. Members do, will agree is a perfectly faithful and truthful account of what has taken place. I regret very much that when all these efforts have been made by the people of the district, when volunteers have come forward in so many thousands, it should be insinuated that even for a moment the organisation had broken down, or that I as Civil Commissioner had done anything to intimate to the people of Newcastle or the district that the Government were not prepared to take every step that was necessary, which in fact they did take, in order to protect the food supplies of the people.
I may add this, in order to show how far the Government were prepared and the steps which they took. A few days afterwards, so misguided were the people who ultimately got control, pushing on one side the more moderate leaders in the district, that notices came round that all those in the district who were preparing flour were to leave their employment. It was the obvious reply to the effective efforts made by the Government to maintain the food supplies of the people. One night I was confronted with a situation in which all concerned in the business of making flour came out and one set of men were so misguided as to stop the machinery of the business in which they were concerned. So excellent was the organisation—and it has nothing to do with me and I claim no credit for it—that the very next day, within two or three hours, the whole of those factories were manned by voluntary labour and the people's food supply was maintained by men, some of whom had to discharge duties of an extremely technical character. The work of providing food for Newcastle was duly carried on.
Newcastle has had many difficulties to contend with during the late strike. It has been the scene of two or three very unfortunate happenings. It was within a few miles from Newcastle that a very discreditable and dastardly attack was made on the Scotch express, and in many parts of the district men—not young boys or people without responsibility—took very extreme and active steps to hold up food supplies. It was necessary, on one occasion, to arrest a member of the National Executive of the Labour Party, who is now in prison for attempting to hold up food supplies in that district. Having said that, I desire to add that the people of the district, generally, including the men who had been on strike in connection with the mines for a long time, and who have my sympathy and the sympathy of the great majority of the people of Newcastle, certainly bore the struggle well and maintained order. Having regard to the very discreditable statements which have been made concerning this district, it is only right to say that, not only did the people carry on and assist the Government to maintain essential services, but on the whole they did so with good temper and good humour.
Apart from the statement by the Lord Mayor concerning my efforts in matters which, I hope the House will agree, were of some difficulty, I think the best testimony I have received came to me the morning before I left for London from one whose name will be familiar to the hon. Member for East Newcastle. I refer to Councillor Adams, who, I believe, is Labour leader on the Newcastle Council, and was at one time a Member of this House. He came to see me on matters connected with housing, and authorised me, in the event of this matter being raised in this House, to say that he had been a member of the Lord Mayor's advisory committee from the beginning, and had observed the efforts which the Government, through myself and my staff, had made to deal with the local situation, and he thought we had admirably performed our task. He wished me to tell the House that he dissociated himself entirely from the statement that the essential services in Newcastle had broken down and that he believed—as, I understand, the hon. Member for Newcastle now believes—that the services there, in common with the rest of the country, were carried on most efficiently. They were carried on in such a manner that, I believe, no single person in Newcastle suffered in connection with the food supplies. I have no regrets for any action I took in the position which was entrusted to me by the Government, and I feel that I left Newcastle, certainly not having made any more trouble, but having carried out my duty to the best of my capacity.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman did he really believe, when he was interviewing Flynn, Tarbitt and White that they were not connected with the strike?
At that time I was quite unaware of the formation of this strike committee which, I understand, supplied the hon. Member with certain particulars. I met these three gentlemen, as I have said, as representing the trade unionists concerned, and I understood they were going back to their own people who were involved. I do not think it is a matter of importance whether they were on such a committee or not, but what I want the hon. Member to know is that I saw them in their capacity as representatives of the trade unionists concerned. If the hon. Member asserts that they did say something about that, I do not wish to contradict him but, so far as I knew when I left, I had met them simply in the capacity of representatives of the organisations which were concerned with the particular work at that moment and, in fact, they were so introduced to me.
Newspaper Distributing Trade
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health has paid a belated tribute to the conduct of the people of Northumberland and Durham in this dispute, and I hope hon. Members, especially those not connected with the Labour party, have listened carefully to his description of the position. It is very important to know that these people who are being driven to a state of desperation are yet capable of maintaining good order. But I regret that the hon. Gentleman did not see his way to clear away the statement made in this House by one of his colleagues that my hon. Friend the Member for East Newcastle (Mr. Connolly) had made a misstatement with regard to the hon. Gentleman's meeting with the strike committee. That seems to me to be an aspersion on my hon. Friend for which there is no case, and it is a pity that the person who made it, or someone on his behalf, does not withdraw it.
I wish, however, on this occasion, to address myself particularly to the Minister of Labour and to follow up certain questions which the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson), and I, have been putting to him since last Monday. I do not know if Members are aware that a serious position has arisen in connection with the wholesale news and book distributing houses in London. In spite of all the promises against victimisation and all the pledges of peace and good will, the Wholesale Newsagents Federation, comprising all the leading wholesalers, have refused since the general strike ended, to meet the official representatives of the unions in order to bargain collectively on the position of the men displaced from labour. They have announced publicly that they intend to regard no longer any of the agreements made with the National Union of Printing and Paperworkers with whom they had many agreements before the dispute. In addition to that, they have informed the body of many thousands of men concerned in the dispute that their only chance of reinstatement was for them to go individually, sign application forms as new applicants for employment, and then, at the discretion of the firms concerned, it would be decided whether or not they should be employed. I suggest that that is a very serious breach of all that has been said officially on both sides since the end of the dispute, and a very serious breach of the attempt which is being made to create some kind of atmosphere of good will in which the country can take up its interrupted course of industry.
The Ministry of Labour appears to have been entirely idle in this dispute. The union concerned appealed to the Ministry of Labour last Saturday. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough put down a question to the Prime Minister on Monday, although, unfortunately, through her misunderstanding, the right hon. Gentleman had not had notice of it, and I made a special appeal to the Prime Minister, who referred the matter publicly in this House to the Minister of Labour. On Tuesday we raised the question here again, and we were told by his Parliamentary Secretary, the Minister of Labour unfortunately not being present, that a representative of some other union, not the union concerned, had met the employers. He did not know what terms had been offered, what the employers were doing, nor how many men were suffering from victimisation or through being unable to resume their work, and the attitude of the Ministry of Labour for the whole week—and I hope I am not stating it too harshly —has been, I believe, to think that the employers will be able to starve these men into submission, and that, therefore, they want to know as little about it as possible. I submit that that is not the attitude which we should expect from a Ministry which, during the past week, has been in many ways the most important Department of the Government. We have the right to expect from them that, following a peace in which there was a general agreement on all sides that this victimisation should be abolished, there would be active mediation and the offer of their services, as soon as they were approached, to help to conciliate both parties.
The position to-day, more than a week after the strike ended, is that the Ministry of Labour has done nothing, in spite of repeated requests, and that there are still nearly 3,000 men willing to resume their work and unable to do so, except on the terms I gave to the House just now. It is safe to say that every active trade unionist in this industry in London has been refused re-employment by the firms concerned. With one firm in Stratford, out of 11 men affected, eight have been taken back, and three, who happened to be minor officials of the union, have been refused employment. At a place in Vauxhall, 24 men were out, 14 have been taken back, and the only 10 whose contribution cards for their union were up to date have been refused employment. At W. H. Smith's, which is the largest firm in the trade, the whole of the fathers of the chapels, or shop stewards, when they went to sign their application forms, were told by their separate managers: "Fancy you coming here to sign this. You had better come and see us again next week." One man, whom I have known for many years, who was the second in charge of the carmen's department, was surrounded by four policemen directly he got into the place, and told: "It is no good you signing any of these forms," and he was sent out again.
I could go on giving illustration after illustration of the way in which these men are being treated, and I suggest that it is not only a breach of the spirit in which the settlement was brought about, but it is a breach of every canon of decency in the handling of the union. It has been a deliberate attempt to smash the union concerned. That is not a bare statement of mine; it is admitted by the Employers' Federation themselves. It cannot succeed. The only thing that it can succeed in doing is to embitter all the other unions concerned in the industry, to embitter the relations which are now being established again between the employers and their employés in the printing and paper making industries, and to start, what I had hoped we were going to avoid, a long series of guerilla outbreaks of warfare, which will do more harm to this industry in 12 months than any one big strike would do. If the masters are going to have a long, spasmodic series of guerilla outbreaks, it will hit their industry even worse than the general strike did, and I suggest to the Minister of Labour, although I have very little hope of him, as he specialises in those easy speeches that comfort cold men, that it is his duty, as His Majesty's Minister for this Department, to see whether he cannot mediate and suggest to the employers concerned that their action is giving substantial proof to the working-class movement that they are taking advantage of this opportunity deliberately to attempt to smash a very strong and powerful union.
Railway EmployéS
I would hesitate to inflict a speech on the House at this late hour were it not for the very important subject I am compelled to introduce. It refers to the position at the moment on the railways, and, really, to appreciate it in its true perspective, we should carry our minds back to the Prime Minister's statement, which was as follows: expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon when he was making reference to the necessity for the stabilisation of industry, and I feel that, if that stabilisation is to be brought about, a clear understanding by the country of the position on the railways at the moment is absolutely essential. The railway companies, as we know, are divided in the main into four groups, and after the strike a settlement was arrived at, the first Clause of which runs like this:
The same thing applies to the other groups. Many of the stationmasters who came out in accordance with the instruction of their trade union are now being withheld from their positions, despite this clause which guarantees to them complete reinstatement without penalty. But that is not the worst of the development on the railways. We find that, as far as the lower sections of the clerical workers are concerned, something like 30 to 40 per cent, up to yesterday were still being kept out, and although the reason might be given that they have not sufficient work to do, let me give one or two illustrations. At one large city, they had to close the gates of the goods station at half-past three in the afternoon, because they had as much work as they could deal with, and yet those who were reinstated were being compelled to work overtime, while their colleagues were being kept outside the gates, despite the definite assurance given that if work could be found they were to be reinstated.
In Manchester, for instance, 150 loads were brought into the station yard on Monday afternoon, and stood over until Tuesday, untouched, while the staff waited on the stone. The company said, "No, you must stay outside," although it meant that the goods were held back from 24 to 48 hours. Then, certain sections of the staff at Bletchley were refused reinstatement, although a few were taken on, and those few were called upon to work overtime, although their colleagues were still outside. What obtains at Bletchley, Leicester and Manchester, what obtains on the North-Eastern equally applies on the London, Midland and Scottish Railway and on the Great Western Railway. And when one remembers the letter that was issued by one of the general managers, in which he says, in an appeal to the staff, if that applies to a certain section of the clerical staff, it does not satisfactorily explain the attitude of the officials in the different localities. It is felt that while the chief officers of the companies may be desirous at the earliest possible moment of reinstating their full staff at the stations, while, at the same time, bearing in mind the position of the coal industry, there is a determined attempt somewhere being made to penalise particularly that section of the staff which at this moment is suffering the most serious penalties, that is, the clerical and administrative class. I have had within the last half hour a telegram sent to me telling me there are six men in Manchester who have been informed that they are to be penalised because of the action they have taken in this strike, by being refused duties until after the Whit week.
We are told in the agreement that the return of the men to the offices should be determined by seniority. As a matter of fact, seniority is being ignored. Supervising men in important positions were being told to keep away for three, four and five days, and in some cases are not back even yet, and their jobs are being done by men who are receiving what is known on the railways as lower-class rates, to the extent of £30, £60, and in some cases £100 less than the original occupants. In view of the fact that at the present moment the railway workers feel that this is victimisation on a large scale, I think it is essential that the House should be informed that the position is extremely serious. It is believed by those who were responsible for bringing the railwaymen out, by those who have agreed to this settlement, the individuals whose signatures are attached to this document, that there is an attempt being made, either by the officials of the companies or those little Napoleons in district offices, in order to vent their spleen and their personal spite, to take advantage of a position which is creating resentment and bitterness in the railway service that very few Members in this House can appreciate. I have seven documents here all indicating the state of things in the large towns in England and Scotland.
May I remind the hon. Gentleman that there are several Members who want to speak?
I close with the remark that it is felt that if the Government will take whatever steps they feel advisable in the circumstances to relieve this feeling of bitterness, then much good will have been done by raising this question.
I am somewhat in doubt as to whether it is a good or a bad thing that the Debate to-day has covered this question of supposed victimisation. What is really wanted is to try to get industry going again as quickly as possible, and I think it is very much open to doubt whether to bring up these cases of victimisation, or alleged victimisation, in the way they have been in this House, really conduces to that end. Perhaps it would be as well if one could get them put just a little in their proper proportion. When the Prime Minister spoke the other night, if I remember aright what he said, he did caution the House against the mention of cases or the spread of rumours which were not substantiated, and I wonder whether these cases which have been brought up this afternoon have all been substantiated. If they have been, there is a justification for it, although it would be far better not to exaggerate those cases for which there may be ground in fact, but to try, as I have been trying in my Department, to get each side together locally by negotiation between representatives of employers and employed. The fact is, while I fear there may be foundation for some cases, there is not much foundation for others. That was my impression during previous Debates and that is why I am suspicious now. I listened to the previous Debate. I listened to the Leader of the Opposition giving various cases which I found afterwards did not bear investigation. I listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) giving cases of alleged victimisation. I examined those that he brought forward, and found that one after another did not bear out the statements he made about them.
In regard to the settlement, I do not propose to deal with the question of the railways. The railway settlement has been a matter between the unions properly concerned and the railway companies. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby himself said, it is far better to let the matter rest there, and let the officials on both sides settle the matter between themselves. Hon. Members' speeches this afternoon are less opportune because conversations between the officials of the railway companies and the unions are taking place at this very moment.
I come now to what was said by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Beckett). I regret to say that there was a great deal in it which was incorrect, both in reference to the facts and in regard to the inferences he has drawn. It is quite true that before the dispute the publishing houses had to deal with the National Union of Printing Trade Workers. It is also true that the unions used their powers before in an extraordinary arbitrary manner. Consequently the employers have decided that in future they would have open shops. They are taking on members of the union together with volunteers that had helped them.
I gather that from what has been said by the hon. Member that it is suggested in my Department we have been "standing by saying as little as possible and have done nothing" while the employers have started to endeaour to bring the men to submission. If the statement were not so patently ridiculous I should resent it.
But did not the Parliamentary Secretary say on Tuesday, in reply to a question, that he had no knowledge one way or the other?
We have been in touch with the parties on both sides, but the person with whom we have been dealing is, of course, the National Secretary, and not the London Secretary of the union in question. What is more, if I remember what the hon. Gentleman said—if I am wrong he will perhaps correct me—he said that none of the men had got back.
No, I did not say that.
I am sorry if I misrepresented the hon. Gentleman. The information given to me is that 300 or 400 men have gone back today. I do not wish to make too much of the matter, but I do wish quite distinctly to suggest to the House that the cases that are brought up here are based on one sided information—it is difficult, perhaps, to see how it could be otherwise. We want really to get at both sides. There are no doubt statements made on the one side perfectly honestly. I have cases here of men who either did not come out, who remained at work during the strike, or who went back; or who acted in a voluntary capacity—in one case as a special constable—and who, to get back into their unions, have either been fined, or had to pay the highest possible entrance fee, or a demand has been made that such men should be dismissed. But I do not want to lay stress on these cases, and I will tell hon. Members why. The more such cases are bandied about, the worse it is for the general situation, and I should like to suggest—I will not put it any more controversially than that—to hon. Members who have spoken on the other side and to the right hon. Gentleman who opened the discussion, that they look at this question really out of its due proportion.
Consider what has actually happened. There has been a general strike such as has never before been known in this country. I do not know, but I am quite willing to believe that many of the unfortunate persons responsible for this strike did not mean it to be a general strike, but only an industrial strike. Whatever the motive was, there is no question as to the character of the strike—none of any sort! It was a co-ordination of strikes in different industries by which the very existence of the country was threatened. Everyone will admit that was so. During that strike—if hon. Members will try to look at the other side of the question as, really, we have tried to do—they will realise whatever the object of it, not only was there an untold amount of dislocation, but the loss to a vast number of employers was absolutely immense. Over long years machinery for conciliation, and for the settlement of disputes of the kind, has been built up with the unions and all the machinery was, with- out any hesitation, put on to the scrap heap. Feelings of resentment, acute feelings of resentment, would only be natural under the circumstances. In view of that, if I may express my own feeling with regard to it, I think, taking the country throughout, the response of the employers to the Prime Minister's appeal has been made with a perfectly wonderful generosity.
I will give one case, which again only came to my knowledge to-day, where members of an association have decided "to act in accordance with the spirit and letter of the Prime Minister's message and state that they will take no advantage of the present situation by discharging men or lowering rates of wages and will find work for all those who went on strike as soon as conditions permit." There has been quite unparalleled provocation, and the way the Prime Minister's appeal has been responded to has been worthy of all praise. I do not say that cases one way or the other way may not occur, but I ask Members on all sides of the House to realise that the real way to settle this matter is not to make such cases a matter for argument to and fro across the House. It is to try, as I have been trying in my Department, to get them dealt with by both sides and to try and get them fairly treated, having regard to the difficulties of the case. These difficulties were dealt with by the Prime Minister, and I shall not repeat them now.
In view of all those difficulties, what is amazing is the rate at which the country has settled down. These cases which have been raised are quite insignificant as compared with the number of cases settled and in which employers have taken men back and men have gone back into employment. Perhaps one of the most remarkable things is the way in which after so much dislocation, people have tried to settle down. I would appeal to hon. Members opposite that it is not really helpful to bring forward individual cases, and so again to fan the embers of dying fires of distrust. If they will send them to me, I shall endeavour to get them settled fairly. I must confess that my Department and I have been grossly overworked in the last three weeks. Anyone who thinks that the staff of one Government Department can deal with all these cases at once, cannot have any real perspective of the situation with which a handful of human beings is trying to deal. So far as we can, we try to deal with all of them.
I was very interested the other day to get a report from a British subject who has peculiar opportunities of knowing what is the opinion on the Continent. He said that the comment there was, "Do not let anyone be mistaken. Great Britain has so much commonsense that, though she looks as though she were making a fool of herself, she will not do so in the long run." That was the candid report brought to me by a man with peculiar opportunities of knowing foreign opinion. We cannot coerce anybody; we are doing our level best to get people to respond to the Prime Minister's appeal. I would ask hon. Members opposite to try and act in the same spirit because what is needed is to have that spirit shown on all sides. May I say this, in conclusion. During the past 18 months I have been doing what I can to help the Prime Minister to try and get the parties in industry together, because I know that they will be able to benefit production here by doing so. For in that way you will improve the standard of living and diminish the cost of living. All that seems to have been thrown into the scrap heap by the strike. Good may come out of evil, but it can only so come if people take the lesson of this strike to heart, and if they will endeavour to smooth things out as much as possible. If they do that, then they will go a great deal nearer getting good out of evil, and possibly getting nearer each other than they were before the strike.
Tramway Men and Printers, Glasgow
I must thank the other speakers for having granted to me and to the Under-Secretary four minutes to raise a, matter. I want frankly to make an appeal. Appeals may be wrong, but they seem to me the only available method left. I want to raise two cases from Scotland, both concerning the city of Glasgow. One concerns the Glasgow Tramway employés. I am not going to make accusations against the Tramway Committee or the tramway manager. All I ask is that the Under-Secretary, either through his own Department or through the Ministry of Labour, should try and use his influence to get the two parties together. I understand that the Lord Provost in Glasgow is very sympathetic towards a settlement. I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will use his persuasive powers with the manager. The position is that 269 men are victimised, or at least not allowed to go back to their work, including one man who won the Victoria Cross. I hope that something may be done to try and adjust that.
The other matter concerns one of the leading Glasgow newspapers owned by Messrs. Outram and Company, where members of the Typographical Association have been refused their jobs as formerly. Their wages have not been lowered, but they have been asked to forgo their union membership. With reason and good will on both sides, I think a settlement can be made. I have been looked upon as one of the most extreme men in my own party. I do not know whether the description has always been favourable or not, but I have not since the dispute started advocated anything which would inflame anyone. I hope that the Under-Secretary will see his way to try and get the two contending parties to make some amicable arrangement.
I take advantage of the couple of minutes which are still left to assure the hon. Member who has just spoken that I will convey his statement to the Secreary for Scotland, who would have been here this afternoon but for the fact that he has gone to Edinburgh to see for himself how our country has managed to weather the storm of the last few days. He will have the advantage of going at first-hand into all the difficult cases which have arisen both owing to the strike and owing to the difficult problems of getting men back to work again. I am sure the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) will agree that nothing could be more calculated to restore good will than the speech which has just been delivered from this Box by the Minister of Labour. Looking at the matter from the broadest ground, there is every reason to be surprised at the rapidity with which normal relations are being resumed, and his reference to Glasgow will no doubt be considered also by the Secretary for Scotland. As the hon Member knows, the question of coercing a great municipality or even of suggesting to it what it should do, raises great difficulties, but I am sure the good offices of the Secretary for Scotland will be used towards securing an appeasement of those difficulties, as they always have been. I am afraid it is not possible for me to refer to the case of the Glasgow newspaper. The difficulty which has arisen with regard to the Glasgow Press—
It being Six of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 19 th May, until Tuesday, 1 st June, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.