House of Commons
Thursday, June 3, 1926
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Chatham and District Water Bill [ Lords ] (changed from "Brompton, Chatham, Gillingham, and Rochester Water Bill [ Lords ]"),
Darwen Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Messrs. Hoare Trustees Bill [ Lords ],
Serle Street and Cook's Court Improvement Bill [ Lords ] (changed from "Serle Street and Cook's Court Improvement Company Bill [ Lords ]"),
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Southern Railway Bill,
As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Widows' Pension Claim (Mrs. R. E. Morris)
asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the case of the widow and three children of the late Lieutenant R. E. Morris Royal Garrison Artillery, of 20, Lascelles Road, Allerton, Liverpool, who have been refused any war pension although her husband was in good health when he joined the Army on 9th September, 1914, but never recovered from the effects of being gassed on 11th April, 1918; and, as Mrs. Morris is entirely without means except from temporary benevolent sources, will he explain why a suitable pension has not been granted?
The case of Mrs. Morris—which has already been brought to my notice through several other channels—has received very careful consideration, but I regret that the Ministry has not been able to accept the cause of this officer's death as in any way connected with the gassing in 1918 or otherwise with his War service. He was suffering from cancer of the stomach. Mrs. Morris has been, informed of the Ministry's decision, and has appealed to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
Has my right hon. Friend seen the medical certificates of other doctors who have had this case under review right from pre-War days, and who are of opinion that it was due to the gassing?
All considerations of that sort will, I feel sure, be taken into account by the Appeal Tribunal, to whom the case is now going.
Scotch Express (Derailment)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any arrests have been made in connection with the derailing of the Flying Scotsman, and whether any reward is being offered for the discovery of the culprits?
The answer to both parts of the question, I am informed by the police, is in the negative.
Does not the Home Secretary think it would be advisable to offer a substantial reward for the discovery of these persons?
The policy of the police is sometimes to offer a reward, when they have an idea who is the culprit, but the general policy is not to offer a reward in cases of this kind, where there is no evidence at all connecting anybody with the crime.
Does not the right hon. Baronet think that to offer a reward might help to get that necessary evidence?
The question of rewards is a very difficult one. On the whole, I have come to the conclusion that the police are right not to use the proposal of a reward too freely.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Transport, on the last occasion when this question was raised in the House, gave an idea that foul play had been at work, and has his attention been drawn to the photographs of the accident at the time, showing the rail out and all the castmetal chairs in being? If an engine of 100 tons weight had passed on to those chairs it would have smashed them and displaced the sleepers, and the tender would have been lying in the opposite direction—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] Does the Home Secretary not think— [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am getting home on this now. Does the Home Secretary not think that, before any further statements are made on this, the House should be informed as to whether the rail was taken out before or after the accident, since the evidence shows that these chairs would have been smashed if the train had gone over them?
I have made no statement on the matter.
No, but the Minister of Transport has.
Then the hon. Gentleman had better submit another question to the Minister of Transport.
Does the Home Secretary think that there has been foul play?
I am like the parrot—I think a good deal, but I do not say much.
Like the sailor's parrot?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the publication of these photographs in a newspaper has caused a great deal of comment, because the photographs themselves obviously show that the train could not have passed over this section of the line?
These questions had better be put to the Minister of Transport.
I want to ask, just forInformation—
Sir Frank Meyer.
Taxi-Cabs
asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the approximate date at which two-seater taximeter-cabs will be ready to ply for hire in the Metropolitan area?
An approximate date at which two-seater taximeter-cabs will be ready to ply for hire cannot be stated. Three firms have taken active steps with regard to the production of this class of vehicle. One is experiencing difficulty owing to the lack of castings brought about by the coal stoppage; another is not satisfied with the trial tests of the engine; while the third has submitted a specimen chassis, the inspection of which revealed many defects which it is understood will be remedied and the chassis will be again presented.
Is it not the case that, in order to provide the public with an adequate supply of cheaper cabs, it will be necessary to put so many of these two-seater cabs on the streets that it would cause great congestion of traffic?
I explained to the House some little time ago that the number contemplated, namely 500, of these new cabs, would be absolutely a drop in the bucket in comparison with the enormous increase of ordinary traffic on the streets. I do not think it would really make any substantial difference.
asked the Home Secretary whether he proposes to take any steps to enforce a reduction of taximeter-cab fares in the Metropolitan area?
As my hon. Friend is aware, I have made an Order as to a reduced scale of fare which may be adopted by any cab, and must be adopted by two-seater cabs. I propose to await the results of this Order before taking any further steps.
Bedford (Death of Prisoner.)
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the death of Reginald Russell while on remand at Bedford gaol; and, in view of the fact that this man was ill for 10 days and died in his cell, will he cause an inquiry to be held into the administration of this prison?
My attention has been drawn to the case, and I am awaiting the result of an inquiry which has been instituted by the Prison Commissioners.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the first case where a man has died in a cell, and also that, although this man was seriously ill for 10 days in the cell, his wife was not made acquainted with the fact?
I have said that I have requested the Prison Commissioners, who are under my jurisdiction, to hold an inquiry into the whole matter. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will repeat his question in due course, I will give him an answer.
Prisoners Travelling
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that in Stafford Railway Station on the morning of the 26th ultimo a number of men, chained together and in the custody of police officers, were transferred from the Liverpool-London train to the Stafford-Birmingham train in full view of the public; for what reason it was necessary to chain these men together; and whether steps will be taken in future to prevent men under arrest from being subject to this public indignity?
I think the hon. Member's question probably relates to a party of convicts sentenced to penal servitude who were being removed to convict prisons in the custody of prison officers. Every effort is made to prevent exposure to the public view in such cases, but the hon. Member will appreciate that this is not always possible when changing trains at a busy station.
Is it the fact that the party of men to whom I am referring were dressed in ordinary clothing?
The hon. Gentleman is not, perhaps, aware that we have been endeavouring for some time past to do away with the old-fashioned broad arrow convict dress, and convicts are not now dressed in a distinctive garb of that kind.
Deportation Recommendation (J. Prodisky)
asked the Home Secretary whether effect will be given to the recommendation of the magistrate when, sentencing Jacob Prodisky, alias Preutch, alias Prooth, to imprisonment, that this Russian alien should be deported after serving his sentence; how long Prodisky has been in this country carrying on revolutionary propaganda work in the East End of London; under what circumstances he was allowed to come into the country; and whether increased precautions will be taken in the future t-o keep such aliens from landing at all?
I shall consider, during this man's imprisonment, the question of his deportation at the end of his sentence. He came here in 1895, before the imposition of alien restrictions. He has been repeatedly under my notice for his disloyal activities, but I think they may now be regarded as ended. The precautions taken at present provide fully against the entry of aliens of this character.
Do I understand that there is no question about his being deported at the end of the time, and that the suggestion of the magistrate will be carried out?
The House will agree that it is my invariable duty to consider these matters myself, and I do not act always on magistrates' opinions. The responsibility is with me, and I consider, towards the end of the sentence, whether the case shall be deported or not. I have said to my hon. Friend that I would consider the question of this man's case, and I think that, after reading the rest of the answer, he will be able to assume that I shall not act without due consideration.
Is it not the fact that this man was two years of age when he came to this country, and that he married an English wife and has an English family?? Are they all going to he deported?
He was two-and-a-half years of age when he came to this country. He has married an English wife, and he has an English child or children. He has for a long time past behaved in a manner disloyal to the country of his adoption, and has been repeatedly in conflict with the police. If I decide to deport him, his wife and family will not necessarily be deported.
General Strike
Councils of Action, Durham
asked the Home Secretary what action is being taken with respect to those responsible for the setting up and operation during the general strike of councils of action in the county of Durham, which bodies aimed at superseding constitutional authority and endeavoured to establish a reign of terrorism among peaceable citizens?
I can only say at present that the whole question is receiving careful consideration, but some individual members are already in prison.
May I ask what authorities are responsible for the police in Durham, and is it certain that the police officers themselves carried out their duty in the manner that is expected of them?
I have no complaint to the contrary. Of course, the police in Durham County are under the county authority, and in the municipality under the Watch Committee for the borough. I have had no complaint at all as to the manner in which the police of either the county or the borough carried out their duties.
Does not the Home Secretary resent this attack upon the police, for whom he is responsible in this House?
Will my right hon. Friend bring this to the notice of the authorities in the County of Durham?
My hon. Friend will forgive me, but the matter, as set out in this question, is not one for the police; it is a question for myself to consider, with my legal Department, whether what has been done is of a nature to cause me to direct a prosecution.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there were no police in Durham during these events?
I am afraid I cannot agree with that.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the statement that an endeavour was made to establish a reign of terrorism?
I think it would be very much better that I should not be pressed too far in this matter. As I have indicated, the whole of the facts have been collected for me, and I am now considering, with my legal advisers, whether those facts show cause for a prosecution.
National Safeguards
asked the Prime Minister what legislation His Majesty's Government propose to introduce, or what steps they propose to take, in order to safeguard the nation against a repetition of a general strike and the events of the past few weeks?
This is a matter which the Government will obviously have to take into consideration, but the Prime Minister is not able to make any statement.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any action is to be taken or whether it is contemplated to take action against any trade union leaders, arising out of the recent general strike?
Obviously, notice should be given of that question.
IS there any likelihood of another general strike, after the experience of the last one?
Obviously, notice must be given of that question.
Naval Ratings (Southwark Generating Station.)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number and rank of the naval ratings employed at the Borough of Southwark generating station during the period of the general strike; the approximate cost of such service; and whether any proportion of such cost will be met from municipal funds?
The reply to the first part of the question is, seven leading stokers and one stoker 1st Class, and to the second part, £50, which will be claimed from the borough.
Can the hon. Gentleman give the date when the services of these men terminated?
Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether these men were half the number of men ordinarily employed?
Edmonton Urban Council (Coal Restrictions)
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to an order of the coal emergency officer of the Edmonton Urban District Council under whose orders restrictions were placed upon the activities of local coal merchants during the general strike with the object of supporting the strike and preventing private enterprise from functioning legitimately; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
My attention has been drawn to this, and I am in consultation with the Secretary for Mines.
Education
Necessitous Children
asked the President of the Board of Education whether children of school age, for whom no school accommodation is available, are treated as children attending school for the purposes of the Feeding of Necessitous School Children Act,1908?
My right hon. Friend assumes that the provisions to which the hon. Member refers are those now contained in Sections 82 to 85 of the Education Act, 1921. He is advised that these Sections enable a local education authority to defray the cost of food out of the rates only in respect of children in attendance at an elementary school in their area, and only if they resolve that any of these children are unable by reason of lack of food to take full advantage of the education provided for them. The question of the children for whom meals can be provided under these Sections is primarily-one for the authority concerned.
Am I to understand from the Noble Lady's answer that, in one definite district to which I can refer, where there are 527 children of school age, all miners' children, because no accommodation has been provided for them by the education authority, they cannot, now that distress intervenes, benefit as the result of the Education Act referred to?
I am afraid that that is the interpretation of the Act.
Will the Noble Lady indicate then where some sense of equality can be enjoyed in regard to these particular children, or are we to understand that, during a continued period of distress, their parents are to be deprived of any advantages, but yet must contribute towards any benefits received by children belonging to other parents?
I do not think the question whether the parents of these children are liable for rates arises.
It is a different question.
Wath-Upon-Dearne Secondary School
asked the President of the Board of Education how many sets of plans for the proposed new secondary school at Wath-upon-Dearne have been sent to his Department by the West Biding (Yorks) Education Committee; whether any plan has yet been approved; and, if not, will he state the reasons for delay?
Preliminary plans were received in my Department last December, and were returned to the authority with suggestions and criticisms the following month. The revised sketch plans were submitted on the 18th May, and are now under consideration.
Housing
London County Council (Rents)
asked the Minister of Health the amount of rentals being charged in respect of subsidy houses built by the London County Council on their various housing estates, together with the type of accommodation for each of the separate rentals?
As regards houses built under the present subsidy schemes, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to his question of the 22nd April last. The rents of houses built by the council under the 1919 scheme range from 9s. to 16s., exclusive of rates, in the case of non-parlour types, and from 11s. 6d. to 18s. 6d. in the case of parlour types.
Houses Completed
asked the Minister of Health if he can now state the number of houses completed during the 12 months ended 31st March by municipal authorities, by private enterprise with subsidy, and by private enterprise without subsidy, respectively?
106,987 houses were completed during the period in question in connection with State-assisted schemes—44,218 by local authorities and 62,769 by private enterprise. I regret that statistics are not yet complete showing the number of houses erected by private enterprise, without assistance, during the year ended 31st March last.
When might I ask a further question in regard to the latter part?
The returns in question have been somewhat delayed owing to the strike, but I expect I shall be in possession of them in the course of the next few days.
Rural Cottages
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the shortage of cottages in rural and semi-rural areas at rents which the agricultural labourer can afford to pay; how many cottages have been built under the 1923 and 1924 Housing Acts which are let at 5s. or less; and whether he proposes to bring in any further legislation this year to help this matter?
I am aware that there is still a shortage of housing accommodation in agricultural districts. Statistics are not available showing the number of houses erected under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924 which are let at rentals of 5s. or less, but under the special financial provisions of the 1924 Act 6,064 houses have been authorised for erection in agricultural parishes to be let at the appropriate normal rentals contemplated by the Act. I am not yet in a position to make a statement with regard to the last part of the hon. and gallant Member's question, but I hope it will be possible to introduce a Rural Housing Bill this Session.
Is not the number 6,600 very small as compared with the great demand, and does the right hon. Gentleman intend doing anything to speed up the building of houses for these rural workers?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these houses in rural districts are of no use to the labouring class because of the cost? Could not some further provision be made to enable the people for whom the houses are intended to get them?
With regard to the first question, whether this is a small amount in proportion to the total demand is, perhaps, a matter of opinion. It is rather larger than I should have expected, but the answer I have given shows that I am not satisfied that everything is being done which might be done, and I hope to do something more. With regard to the last question, really the same answer applies. I am aware that some of the houses built in agricultural districts have not been occupied by agricultural labourers, and in the proposals I am considering I hope to be able to do something more for that class.
Poor Law
Casual Ward Accommodation
asked the Minister of Health whether his Ministry has any considered policy with respect to the opening and closing of casual wards; and if the distances between them are regulated in the interest of travelling working men forced to use them in endeavours to find work?
My Department would not concur in the closing of any casual ward if the result would be to cause hardship or unduly long journeys to vagrants, and would have special regard to the needs of persons travelling in search of work. Where it seems desirable, boards of guardians are required to re-open casual wards which have been closed or to build new wards.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the proposals now before the Gloucester and Bristol Committees with regard to the closing of wards?
If the hon. Member will send me any particulars he wishes to bring to my attention, I shall be glad to look into them.
I shall be pleased to do that. It is men who are out of work who are using these places.
Food Vouchers (Co-Operative Stores)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that certain boards of guardians, in issuing vouchers for the supply of goods, make it a condition that such goods shall be obtained at the co-operative stores; that members of these boards in many cases occupy positions in connection with the cooperative stores; and if he will cause an inquiry to be made into the matter with a view, if necessary, to the issue of such instructions as will put a stop to this practice?
I am aware of instances of the kind mentioned in the first part of the question, and, while the action appears to be within the discretion of the guardians, I think it undesirable that preference of this kind should be given. As regards the last two parts of the question, if my hon. and gallant Friend will give me par- ticulars, I will give the matter further consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the far greater number of instances where boards of guardians refuse to allow vouchers to be honoured if they were given to co-operative societies, and if he is going to take action, will that action be impartial?
Yes, perfectly.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it fair that an attitude of this sort should be adopted by boards of guardians, which is handicapping the ordinary shopkeeper, who has to pay Income Tax on the profits he earns.
This is not the time for argument.
Newcastle (Relief)
asked the Minister of Health why he has intimated to the Newcastle Board of Guardians that any further loans required by them and sanctioned by him will be contingent on their acceptance of the suggestions contained in Ministry of Health Circular 703, which places the maximum amount of relief at 35s. per week; whether he is aware that this circular states that the instructions concern the general stoppage of industry, which no longer exists; and whether he proposes to give the House an opportunity of discussing the effects of such provisions on the health of the Poor Law relief recipients, and particularly the children?
It has already been necessary to sanction the raising by this board of guardians of temporary loans to the amount of £200,000, and, in view of their financial position, it is essential that every practicable economy should be adopted. The reduced scales of relief now in force are still higher than has been found necessary in a number of other unions. The basis of Circular 703, which is incorrectly described by the hon. Member, was that guardians should make adequate arrangements for carrying out their statutory duty of relieving destitution while taking all possible steps to conserve their financial resources in view of the demands that might be made upon them. The principles of the circular will continue to be applicable during the coal dispute, which must result in increasing demands upon the guardians. The question of discussion in this House is one for arrangement through the usual channels.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Newcastle Board are applying the provisions of Circular 703 to cases on the books before the strike commenced? Is this his intention, and, if not, will he intimate his intention to the Newcastle Board of Guardians?
That is not exactly the question on the Paper. The Circular in question has reference to cases arising out of the strike. Of course, I think it must be recognised that if the coal dispute goes on for a long time it may be necessary for guardians to consider the whole position.
Were instructions of a similar character sent to the West Ham Board of Guardians, and how does the right hon. Gentleman connect that board of guardians with the coal strike?
The Circular in question was sent to all boards of guardians.
Questions
Local Authorities and Trade Unions
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that several local authorities, including boards of guardians and municipal authorities, have been taking steps to compel their employés to join a trades union or otherwise terminate their employment; and whether he is taking any steps to prevent this victimisation?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Westbury.
Is it possible to do anything in the case of the Tottenham District Council and the Greenwich and Deptford Boards of Guardians, who are already victimising their employés by dismissing them if they have not joined a union?
I think that is a question we had yesterday.
Agriculture
Kelham Beet-Sugar Factory
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is prepared to state what are the terms of the lease of the Kelham Beet-Sugar Factory; and whether there is any provision in the lease by which the lessees have to repay to the Stats out of profits made by them, through the Government subsidy and Excise preference on sugar and molasses, the losses caused by the depreciation of the State investment in Home Grown Sugar, Limited?
Under the working arrangement between Home Grown Sugar, Limited, and the English Beet Sugar Corporation, Limited, the corporation operates the Kelham factory in consultation with the board of the company, provides all working capital, takes full responsibility for losses, and receives a share of any trading profits made. All such trading profits less the proportion due to the corporation are applied by the company to the payment of interest on the company's mortgages, a dividend to the public shareholders (guaranteed by the Government), and to the redemption of the company's mortgages. During the period of this working arrangement profits have been made at the factory, the dividend on the public share has been paid without recourse to the Government guarantee and mortgages have been reduced by £60,000 out of revenue.
Foot-And-Mouth Disease(Order Issued)
asked the Minister of Agriculture, in view of the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease, which has been proved to have been caused by imported pig flesh from Holland or Belgium, will he state what steps have been taken to disinfect such ships bringing this cargo; and whether measures have been taken to stop infected meat being brought into this country?
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he can state the extent of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Scotland; and whether he is taking any steps to reduce the risk of infection from foreign sources?
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether a recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has been traced to infection arising from the carcases of imported pigs?
Thirteen outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease have recently been confirmed in South-west Scotland and Cumberland which have occurred in or are attributed to imported carcases of pigs. Steps have been taken for dis-infection of persons who have handled these carcases, of the bacon factories and railway and other vehicles which have been in contact with them, and, where practicable, of the ships in which they have been conveyed. After full consideration of all aspects of the question, the Government authorised the issue of an Order yesterday, which will take effect from midnight to-night, prohibiting the landing in Great Britain of a carcase or part of a carcase of any cattle, sheep, pigs or goats, including hides, skins, offals and other parts thereof, which has been brought from any country on the Continent of Europe, except fully cured bacon and ham, lard or rendered fat, cooked or preserved meat or meat essences, and hides and skins which have been dried, dry salted or wet salted. I would add that carcases may be highly infective although no definite lesions exist. Inspection of carcases, therefore, either before shipment or on arrival, would not afford protection against the risk of introducing the disease into this country.
Will the Regulations be kept on until the Continent is free from this scourge?
They will certainly be kept on until they can be relaxed without danger to the British farmer.
Has the Dutch inspector who disputed the evidence as to infection yet formed an opinion and confirmed the evidence?
I think the Dutch inspector in the statement in the Press was referring to the Carluke outbreak. Since then there has been another ship- ment unloaded at Newcastle-on-Tyne which was traced to an abattoir at Rotterdam.
Are the right hon. Gentleman's technical advisers satisfied beyond any shadow of doubt that the infection was due to these carcases?
Yes, Sir.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give notice to the public that cured bacon arriving here from Holland which has not been prohibited may be bacon which has suffered from foot-and-mouth disease?
I do not think we have any evidence on that subject whatever. It will depend on the inspection of the bacon factories.
As I understand it, there is no prohibition against bacon coming here cured. Ought not the public to be allowed to know that bacon coming here cured may be from carcases so infected that if it arrived here fresh they would have been condemned, and therefore, arriving here cured, they may still be cured bacon from infected sources?
That is a matter for another question.
Do I understand that this is from all countries of Europe, and will any legislation be required for this very far-reaching order?
No, we have full powers under the Diseases of Animals Acts.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Dutch bacon which is being referred to is being sold in Scotland as Ayrshire bacon?
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Agriculture whether evidence in the possession of his Department justifies the suspicion that foot-and-mouth disease has been brought into this country not alone by fresh meat imports from the Continent now prohibited, but also by vegetable products such as hay and straw, and whether the Government proposes to make the new Imports Order more effective by includ- ing these vegetable products in the prohibition?
The use of hay and straw imported from the Continent as fodder or litter for animals is already prohibited, and when used as packing material it must be kept from contact with animals and destroyed when no longer required for packing. There is no definite evidence of other vegetable products having caused outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in this country, and I do not therefore propose to prohibit the importation of any such products.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this prohibition is proving effective?
It is impossible to judge. We cannot tell how many of these outbreaks have been due to the importation of meat, but I think it is obvious that there is much greater danger in the direct infectivity of a diseased carcase than from the purely secondary infectivity of vegetable matter which can only be a mechanical carrier.
Is it the habit of the right hon. Gentleman's Department after excluding any article of staple necessity to watch the price at which it is sold in England?
We have not been excluding any article of staple necessity. The imports of meat from the Continent are only a very small fraction of our total imports and there are many alternative sources of supply.
Is not meat a staple necessity?
French Cherries (Fruit Fly)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the importation of cherries into this country from France has begun; and, in view of the risk of infection amongst fruit plantations in this country, what immediate steps he will take to prevent the importation from France of cherries infected with the cherry fruit fly?
I am aware that the importation of French cherries has begun and samples of these and of imports from other countries are being regularly obtained and examined by the scientific staff of my Department. In the event of the discovery of any serious infestation, I propose to issue an Order under the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts prohibiting the entry of cherries from the country concerned excepting such con signments as can be furnished with an official certificate that the fruit was grown in a district where the cherry fruit fly is not known to exist.
May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman will make an Order immediately if the cherry fruit fly is discovered in imported cherries?
As soon as we get evidence of sufficient gravity to justify an Order, we shall issue one.
Would it not be possible for samples to be taken for inspection at the port of embarkation, and the result telegraphed to this country, in order to prevent any bulk distribution in this country?
We have considered the best way of watching this matter, and I think the easiest way to administer it is the way we have decided upon. My advisers are not very greatly alarmed at the danger of affecting our home-grown supplies if they keep the watch which they propose. This danger has gone on for some years, and the cherry fruit fly has not obtained a hold in this country.
Small Holdings
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number and total acreage of small holdings owned or controlled by county council or other public authorities in England and Wales?
According to the latest available information, the total area of land acquired, by purchase or on lease, and still retained, by county councils and the councils of county boroughs in England and Wales for small holdings purposes is approximately 440,000 acres, which is let to 29,300 smallholders. These figures do not include an area of over 4,000 acres sold to about 440 smallholders. The area of land acquired and still retained by the Ministry itself for small holdings purposes is 10,412 acres, on which 434 men are settled.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how these figures compare with the latest pre-war figures? Are they more or less?
They are very much more.
Questions
Official Report of Debates
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what measures have been taken to secure that the business of the House of Commons shall not again be hampered, as it was during the recent strike, by the nonprinting of the OFFICIAL REPORT by the employés of the Stationery Office; and what disciplinary measures have been taken against these persons who thus broke contracts, and incommoded the House?
My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has asked me to answer this question on his behalf. I need hardly say that the Government will take all possible steps to avoid any interruption of the printing services required by this House. With regard to the question of the treatment of Government employés who joined in the strike, I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which the right hon. Friend made on the 20th May. I would merely add that the most serious effect of the general strike in regard to the printing for this House, namely, the cessation of the printing of the daily Votes and Proceedings, was due to the loss of labour by outside contractors, and that this situation was met by the provision of copies by duplicating methods by the Stationery Office.
Is it tolerable that any body of people, whether employed by contractors or directly, should attempt to impede the work of the House of Commons, and have any measures been taken to ensure that this shall not occur again?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, when there was no Order Paper available in this part of the House, every single Member of the Labour Front Bench secured a copy of a non-union printed sheet?
In regard to the latter part of the question, if my hon. Friend will glance at columns 522 and 523 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 20th May, he will find a much fuller reply than I can give him, because it deals with the subject he has referred to in full detail. In regard to the other matter, I think the House of Commons itself has already expressed its opinion.
Royal Air Force
Iraq (Officers' Wives)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will consider the possibility of making arrangements to enable the wives of officers of the Air Force stationed at Mosul to join their husbands?
Under present Regulations Royal Air Force officers posted to Iraq are not allowed to take their wives and families with them in view of the comparatively short tour of duty and the conditions of life in that country. It is not proposed to make any special relaxation of this rule in regard to Mosul.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of these officers have been out there for long periods, many for months and even years, and that there appears to be no reason in the condition of the country why their wives should not join them?
I went fully into the question when I was there last year, and while I have great sympathy with the officers in their desire to have their wives with them, the hon. and gallant Member should take into account, first of all, the fact that the term of service is a very short one, namely, two years; secondly, that there is a shortage of housing accommodation: and thirdly, that we are in process of reducing the garrison, and that if agreement is reached with Turkey there will be further substantial reductions in the near future.
Cairo-Cape Flight
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give the House any information with regard to the Cairo-Cape-Cairo flight by the Royal Air Force; whether the flight has been a complete success; and what has been the number of miles flown?
The flight from Cairo to the Cape and back was completed on the 27th May, when the four aircraft returned to Heliopolis one day in advance of the programme. A full report has, of course, not yet been received, but I am able to say that the flight was a complete success and that the four aircraft accomplished the journey of approximately 10,500 miles without any change of engines.
In due course, will an official account of this very interesting flight be available?
Certainly. I am waiting until the flight is completed. I am hoping that the machines will arrive in the course of the next few weeks.
Unemployment
Vocational Training Centres
asked the Minister of Labour how many men have been through the various residential training centres; how many have since emigrated to the Dominions: and how many were found unsuitable?
99 men have passed through a course of agricultural training at Claydon; of these, 43 have been placed on farms in Ontario, a further 43 embarked for Australia during May, and eight will leave for that country on 5th June. Two men withdrew after final acceptance by the Dominion Authorities, and three were rejected, on final medical examination, as unsuitable. No men have yet completed a course at the Brandon centre, which was opened on 24th February.
In view of the success of these training centres which is admitted on all sides, is it the intention of the Ministry to increase the number of these centres, and have they given consideration to the advisability of establishing further training centres for the training of men for settlement on the land in this country?
That question does not arise, and the hon. Member is only taking up the time if other hon. Members.
Employment Exchange Registers
asked the Minister of Labour if he will give the full details of the unemployment figures on 26th April last?
The details usually published of the number of persons recorded on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain on 26th April, 1926, involve a number of figures of which I will, with my Noble Friend's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am not sure whether there are any other details which he has in mind in his question. The main point worth noting in regard to them is that the total figure on 26th April (981,877) was lower than any comparable total since 1920.
Following is the statement:
NUMBER of PERSONS recorded on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain on 26th April, 1926. — Persons normally in regular employment. Persons normally in casual employment. Totals. Wholly unemployed. Temporarily stopped. Men. 592,002 99,865 72,325 764,192 Boys. 25,809 2,940 204 28,953 Women 90,866 65,100 817 156,783 Girls. 27,075 4,867 7 31,949 Total 735,752 172,772 73,353 981,877
Questions
Companies Acts (Committee Report)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will expedite the publication of the Report of the Committee on the Administration of the Companies Acts?
The Report hag been presented to Parliament, and will be published to-morrow.
National Living Wage
asked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a committee of economic experts to inquire and report upon a national living wage in all industries; the effect of monetary policy on industrial unrest and trade depression; the problem of over capitalisation of industry; and the effect of local and national taxation on the productive industries of the country?
I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by appointing a Committee such as the hon. Member suggests. Most of the questions referred to have been, or are being, considered by special Committees, such as the Balfour Committee and the Colwyn Committee, whose reports should be available before long, and a further roving inquiry by economic experts is more likely to engender controversy than produce practical results.
On a point of Order. Is it not the usual practice that the Prime Minister's questions are answered in his absence by the Home Secretary or a principal Secretary of State? I should like your guidance on this matter, Mr. Speaker.
Not at all. The Prime Minister may ask whom he pleases.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Report of the Colwyn Committee is likely to be presented?
No, Sir, I cannot.
Post Office Staff (Registered Clubs)
asked the Postmaster-General the date and exact terms of any order restricting membership of registered clubs amongst the Post Office staff and employés?
There is no order in force restricting membership of registered clubs amongst Post Office staff. There is a rule prohibiting Post Office servants from participating in the ownership or management of such clubs unless special permission is given, which has been in force since 1910 and of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
India (Montgomery Gaol—Assault)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, seeing that the Committee which inquired into the Montgomery Gaol incident found that the gaoler, if he did not instigate the brutal assault on the visiting member of the Legislative Council, fabricated false evidence to explain away the assault, he will say if the gaoler still remains in Government service?
The reply is in the affirmative. But the gaoler referred to has been transferred to a small district gaol, and will not again be employed in any important gaol.
In view of the seriousness of this offence, and that the victim is a member of the Legislative Council, is it not desirable that the man found guilty of such an offence should be removed from the Service?
The question which I am under an obligation to answer is whether or not my Noble Friend is ready to interfere with the discretion of the local government in this matter. He is not. The local government must be the best judges, in the circumstances, of the action to be taken. The right hon. and gallant Member must not necessarily assume that the local government accept in full the report of the Committee; they accepted its main conclusions. My Noble Friend is not prepared to interfere with their discretion.
Is it not a fact that the Committee which inquired into this extraordinary case consisted of three Judges, one an Englishman, and that they were unanimous in pointing out that m this case the gaoler was guilty?
That is so, but the right hon. Gentleman must be well aware that no Government necessarily accepts the full Report of a Committee, or necessarily acts in the way suggested. The local government accepted the Report in its main conclusions, and acted accordingly.
British Trade Debts, France
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a recent judgment in the Paris Court of Appeal, whereby a British firm which in 1919 sold goods to a customer in France, which were payable in sterling, is actually only to receive payment at the rate of 80 Francs to the £; and whether he will make representations to the French Government with a view to this and other such debts contracted by their nationals being paid in full?
My right hon. Friend is awaiting the actual text of the judgment to which the hon. Member refers, and on its receipt he will consider whether or not representations on the subject can be made to the French Government.
Passports and Visas
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can give the House any particulars with regard to the recent Conference on passports and visas at Geneva; what conclusions were reached; whether the majority of the Conference were in favour of the elimination of the visa; whether any definite resolutions were carried; and whether any date was suggested for the purpose of attempting to bring such resolutions into force in the different countries affected?
The recommendations of the Passport Conference at Geneva, which are of a technical nature, have only just reached me, and it would be premature to make a statement concerning them. I would remind my hon. Friend of the reply given to his question in this House on the 19th May.
If I repeat my question in a fortnight's time, will the hon. Gentleman be able to give me more details?
Yes, I think I shall.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can see his way to simplify the passport system, or to abolish it altogther, owing to the trouble and delay caused to travellers, whether on business or pleasure, and the cost which is involved to the State by the maintenance of a staff, estimated at about 300, costing annually in salariesaloneabout£54,000?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply returned to the hon. Member for Lanark on the 16th December last. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the existing arrangements for the issue of British passports have been simplified to the fullest possible extent. They were received with general approval at the Conference which recently met at Geneva to consider passport questions. The cost of the maintenance of the passport office is covered by its receipts.
Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is a perfect farce presenting passports between Dover and Calais? You are given a landing ticket, and it is only a waste of time on both sides.
All these questions have been considered at the recent Conference at Geneva, and I hope that very shortly the Report will be published.
Is it not fair to this country to say that we have given a lead throughout to all other countries in this matter?
Yes, Sir; I have always understood that our system of passports is the best in the world.
China (Salt Revenue)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the danger of the total disappearance of the machinery for the collection of the Chinese Salt Tax due to the action of the militarist leaders; whether he is aware that this tax has hitherto furnished sums required for certain foreign loans; whether the foreign Powers affected have made any representations to China on the subject; and whether, under the circumstances, he will consider withdrawing from the tariff negotiations until China recognises her contracts in respect of the Salt Tax?
I think that my hon. Friend is unduly alarmed. Local seizures of the salt revenues, pledged for the service of certain foreign loans, have taken place from time to time, and have recently shown a tendency to increase. Such breaches of the Reorganisation Loan Agreement of 1913 are made the subject of protest by the Legations concerned, who keep a close watch on the situation, but so far nothing has occurred to give rise to any fear that the foreign loans secured on the salt revenue are in danger of default, or that the administration is about to disappear. There is, therefore, no reason to withdraw from the Tariff Conference on these grounds.
Will the hon. Gentleman inform me whether any change is contemplated in the appointment of the Salt Commissioner, and, if so, the reasons for it?
That question should be put on the Paper.
British Trawlers, Iceland
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that on 8th May the steam trawlers "Thomas Thresher" and "Abronia," of Grimsby, were fired upon by a Danish gunboat whilst fishing outside territorial waters off the coast of Iceland; and if he will request the Danish Government to furnish an explanation of the incident?
A report to this effect was brought to the notice of the Foreign Office yesterday and inquiries are being made.
I should like an answer to the second part of my question whether the Danish Government have been asked to furnish an explanation of the incident?
I cannot possibly do that until the report has been received and we know exactly what occurred.
Is it not the case that most of these trawlers have no right to be there? We are suffering from the same thing from these Hull and Grimsby trawlers in the North of Scotland.
May I ask, Sir, if you permit this kind of aspersion on a very gallant body of men?
The trawlers are clearly stated to have been outside the territorial limits.
Egypt
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any instructions have been sent to Lord Lloyd as to what attitude he should adopt in view of the recent Parliamentary elections in Egypt; and if so, what were those instructions?
Communications are still proceeding between the High Commissioner and His Majesty's Government. I am not in a position to make any statement at this moment.
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether it is a fact that a battleship has been ordered to leave Malta and proceed to Egypt?
Yes, Sir, a battleship is proceeding to Alexandria.
Vice-Consul, Montenegro (Residence)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Vice-Consul in Montenegro resides at Cettinje or at Ragusa?
The Consular post at Cettinje is being transferred to Gruz (Gravosa-Ragusa) about the middle of this month.
Portugal
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement with regard to the situation in Portugal?
I have nothing to add to the information contained in the reports which have appeared in the Press.
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Minister of Health in how many instances a pension has been refused under the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act to widows without young children whose husbands were aged over 70 years on 4th January, 1926; and in how many of such cases the husbands paid national health insurance from the inception of the National Health Insurance Act to the date on which they attained the age of 70?
The number of claims by widows in the category referred to which could not be admitted for pensions is 304. I regret that I am unable to give the information asked for in the second part of the question, as the failure of the claims to satisfy the conditions imposed by the Act made it unnecessary to investigate the insurance position of the husband. I should perhaps explain that as no contributions under the Act could have been paid in respect of a man who was over 70 years of age at its commencement, the widow of such a man is in the same position as the widow of a man who died before the commencement of the Act, and in neither case is a pension payable unless there is a legitimate child under the age of 14.
Imperial Preference
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the value of Empire goods imported into Great Britain during the three months ended 31st March, 1926, on which duty was charged at preferential rates; and what was the aggregate reduction of the duties on these goods due to such preferential rates?
The precise information asked for in the first part of the question is not available, but the approximate import value, for the period mentioned, of goods which, if delivered for home consumption, would prima facie be eligible for preferential rates of duty, was £16,401,000. The aggregate reduction of duties on goods actually delivered at the preferential rates during the period was £1,513,500.
County Councils (Road Expenditure)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has evidence to show that the free balances on the Exchequer contributions accounts of county authorities, which were assigned in 1888 in substitution for the direct Exchequer grants previously made for roads, are, in fact, spent by the counties on roads as distinct from other purposes of county expenditure; whether the county councils in their accounts show that they regard those balances as in any way an Imperial grant for road purposes; and whether, if credit is to be taken for them as an Imperial grant for roads, the Government will propose legislation to ensure that those free balances are, in fact, spent upon roads under the supervision of the Minister of Transport?
The balances in question are not earmarked either by statute or in local authorities' accounts for expenditure on roads, but are available for general county purposes. I have no doubt, however, that in all cases an amount in excess of these balances is, in fact, spent on the upkeep of roads. The existence of these balances will, of course, have to be taken into account in any revision of the Assigned Revenues System, but I see no reason for legislation pending such revision.
Coal Trade Dispute
Statement by Mr. Churchill
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement in the House on 1st June that the Government is prepared to grant a temporary subsidy during the period that negotiations are proceeding, he will indicate the undertaking he would consider necessary from both sides to justify him in taking this course and so enable the pits to be immediately opened?
There is no reason for any misunderstanding on this subject. The Government have resumed complete liberty of action. They do not exclude the grant of a further subsidy to the coal industry within the limits of the £3 millions already mentioned. The employment of this sum or any portion of it for the purpose of facilitating the progress of negotiations would only be considered if the Government were satisfied that those negotiations had reached a point which ensures within a short time a settlement that will provide a reasonable period of stability without further State assistance. My Noble Friend will, however, realise from the words of the Prime Minister and the subsequent statement by the Minister of Labour that the needs of certain areas after a settlement has been reached may constitute a superior claim on such limited assistance as the State can give.
Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of ships which have brought coal to British ports for discharge since the 1st May, 1926; the amount of tons so discharged; the value of such quantities; and the countries of origin?
This information is now being collected, but is not yet in my possession. I will give it to the hon. Member as soon as I have obtained it.
Can the right non. Gentleman tell us when he will have the information?
I can only get the information from the Customs, and an inquiry is now being made. It means an inquiry of a very detailed character.
As I asked this question of the President of the Board of Trade, surely, in the ordinary figures belonging to navigation, the Board of Trade has such information as this at its disposal.
I am informed that that is not so. We have to get the information from the Customs, and as soon as we have the information I will let the hon. Member have it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman publish the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT, rather than sending it to one hon. Member?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question down on that point, and I will answer it.
Business of the House
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury what business the Government propose to take during the Sittings of next week?
On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday we shall take the Committee stage of the Finance Bill; and, if not already disposed of, we have to take the Committee and Report stages of the Financial Resolution dealing with Clause 16 of the Bill.
On Friday we shall take Private Members' Bills—Consideration on Report and Third Reading.
Ordered,
"That other Government business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ Sir A. Chamberlain. ]
Vinegar Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 117.]
Unemployment Insurance Bill
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended ( in the Standing Committee ), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next.
Bills Reported
Dover Harbour Bill,
London County Council (Money) Bill,
Taf Fechan Water Supply Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message from the Lords,
That they have agreed to,—
Marriages Provisional Order Bill, without Amendment.
Hackney Borough Council Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Kidderminster and Stourport Electric Tramway Company to reconstruct a tramway and execute certain other works; to confer further borrowing powers upon the company; and for other purposes." [Kidderminster and Stourport Tramways Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to dissolve University College, Reading, and to transfer all the property and liabilities of that college to the University of Reading; and for other purposes." [Reading University Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the urban district council of Colwyn Bay and Colwyn to run omnibuses; to confer further powers on the council with regard to the distribution of water, the supply of electricity, the purchase of lands for various purposes, and the health, local government, and improvement of the district; to provide for the consolidation of the parishes in the district and the consolidation of the rates of the district; and for other purposes." [Colwyn Bay and Colwyn Urban District Council Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Margate to construct street improvements, sea walls, and promenades, and a reservoir, and to purchase lands for various purposes; to make further provision with regard to the health, local government, and improvement of the borough; to consolidate the rates of the borough; and for other purposes." [Margate Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
Kidderminster and Stourport Tramways Bill [ Lords ],
Reading University Bill [ Lords ],
Colwyn Bay and Colwyn Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Margate Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Orders of the Day
Rating (Scotland) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill is one of considerable complexity and is full of technical points which, I suggest, are, in the main, such, as can be more suitably and adequately dealt with in Committee than on this occasion. It is right, however, that, in moving the Second Reading, I should endeavour, first, to review the previous history of the Bill which was introduced during last Session, then to show to the House the necessity for proceeding with a Measure of this nature, and, finally, as far as lies in my capability, explain the provisions which we propose to make. Hon. Members, particularly those who represent Scottish constituencies, will recollect that, on behalf of the Government, I introduced a Bill last Session to deal with rating in Scotland. I did so for the purpose of bringing these questions to the attention of local authorities and others whose interests were concerned. I should like at this stage to say on behalf of the Government that I appreciate the response made by those particularly interested in the matter, who sent numerous deputations to interview either myself or members of my Department. As we proceed in the discussion of this Measure, it will be evident that the work which has been done in the interval has not been without good effect. I desire also to express my appreciation of the work which the officials of the various Departments concerned in this matter have done. I am certain their efforts to get over some of the difficulties will be of advantage, not only to the country as a whole, but to the rapidity and smoothness of our discussions in this House.
As to the necessity for dealing with this rating problem, there can be little division of opinion. During the last 20 or 25 years there have been repeated inquiries into this subject, and I am satisfied it is not an over-statement of the case to say that there is general con- currence regarding the desirability of dealing with the problem. What are the main necessities which call for alteration? Surely, they lie in the multiplicity of rating authorities and in the inconvenience caused, both to the rating authorities themselves and the individuals who are rated, by the fact that you have county authorities, burgh authorities and parish authorities all levying rates. In some cases there is not only a duplication but a triplication of rates and, if you include the water trusts, there are cases where four authorities levy rates. Not only are four demands being made upon one individual, but there are instances where authorities assess the same property each on a different basis. There are many arguments which can be adduced, therefore, for simplification.
In addition, you have this problem, that admittedly in the past there grew up under our rating system a system of parish deductions which were carried out under Section 37 of the Poor Law Act, 1845. When I first took office, I was faced with a serious problem, because I was approached by the parish council authorities desiring the immediate repeal of Section 37. Their desire to have that altered arose from the fact that there had been a judgment, known as the Etna Judgment, which had resulted in a decision in the Courts which went to show that if the Etna Company had carried out to the extreme, which I am glad to say they did not, the result of the decision which they had received, they would have paid no rates at all. It is clear that not only did that raise in itself, as a single instance, a matter of great difficulty for the rating authorities, but it was bound to have repercussions upon any similar cases. I was urged then to take immediate steps to pass emergency legislation to abolish Section 37. I met various deputations, and I asked the rating authorities to endeavour to come to a temporary arrangement with regard to this problem, in view of the fact that the Government had already announced its intention of introducing a Rating Bill to deal with the whole problem. I am happy to think that those efforts in approaching, not only the rating authorities, but other interests concerned, were successful and that a temporary arrangement was arrived at. But it must be clear to the House that it was only a temporary arrangement and that it is still necessary to deal with a problem of this kind, and, therefore, I would say that that is a clear argument in favour of proceeding with this Bill, and at the earliest moment.
I have said something already about the present system of rating and the multiplicity of authorities that deal with this question. I would only like to say further, in regard to that, that in this present system, not only do you have three or four rating authorities, but it entails the preparation of at least two assessment rolls and two demand notes. There must, I think, be clear evidence from this that there is a great opening for economy in the method of collection. At the present moment there are about 1,100 separate rating authorities in Scotland, and if the proposals which we make in our Bill come into effect, those 1,100 rating authorities will be reduced to 240. That of itself must, I venture to say, lead to a greater measure of economy and efficiency. If you take the cost of collection of rates in Scotland alone, you will find that in 1924–25 it was approximately £276,000, of which about £44,000 was incurred by county councils, £128,000 by town councils, and £104,000 by parish councils. It is perhaps difficult and questionable ground to make estimates and predictions as to the saving on these costs, but alter the most careful investigation and inquiry on the part of my Department from all sources, it is clear to us that, of this £104,000 which at the present moment is incurred as the cost of collection by the parish councils, a very large proportion can be saved, by making, as we do under the Bill, only two collecting authorities, namely, the county and the burgh authorities. I would venture to say that £50.000 would be an underestimate of the saving which is possible in this direction.
I might add that taking this question of the percentage cost of collection, one finds that, in the main, one can say broadly that the cost of collection by the larger bodies is lees expensive than that by the smaller bodies. I find that the percentage cost of collection of parish councils amounts to 1·26, while that of the town councils is 1·18; that of the county councils is 1·37. It is, as I have said, perhaps a risky thing to make any estimate of what may be the complete saving, more particularly as, of course, in the first part of the bringing into operation of this new scheme, one would be faced with starting up some new machinery and with giving compensation to some of those who are dispossessed.
4.0 P.M.
Then we come to the advantages of uniformity, and if we are able to carry out the proposals which we are making, we will now have a single rental for all local rates. I think that in itself this control over the actual working of the machine will be a material advantage. Under the existing system, as hon. Members are aware, we have had 869 parish councils in Scotland, each granting deductions to certain classes of property. Each of those parish councils has been a law unto itself as to the arrangement of the amounts which shall be deducted, and it is very striking to find that the variation which has arisen due to this fact ranges from 2½ per cent, or at least 10 per cent, m some instances to as high as 70 per cent, in others. I would only like to say on this point that where you have small bodies such as these parish councils, subject to local influence—I am not making the assertion that it would be done dishonestly—is it not quite clear that certain elements represented upon these parish councils may succeed in getting higher rates of deduction for certain classes of enterprise in which they are interested to the disadvantage of others? In any case, it is clear that, however these have been arrived at in the past, you have very extreme cases, and as an illustration of this variety, mention might be made of one class of property, namely, blast furnaces in Lanarkshire and Ayrshire, distributed over 10 parishes in two adjacent counties, as regards which the deduction allowed varies from 10 per cent, in one parish to 72 per cent, in another parish. This is not an extreme case. There are many others of a similar nature, and I think it must be evident to Members on all sides of the House, whatever view they may take of the proper method of dealing with this in future, that the state of matters existing to-day is highly unsatisfactory. If these difficulties are to be avoided, what basis are we to adopt? When my Department had to consider what method we should adopt to deal with this problem, we had, of course, to guide us various Commissions and Reports. One method which we considered was that rates should be based upon gross rentals. Another was that the Public Health rental might be adopted. I would venture to say this, as a general observation, that coming to a problem of this nature, as I did, without any expert knowledge such as may be claimed by some Members of this House, I came, in the first instance, to the conclusion, that whatever system I was to submit to this House, I should endeavour, as far as possible, to make it a system which should be simpler, which should be more economical, which should be more suitable to the individual upon whom the rate is levied, but that, in the main, I should lay my plans to make the least possible disturbance of the existing rates falling upon different varieties of property.
It is inevitable, of course, that whatever scheme you may adopt, you are bound to make certain transfers and alterations. I have examined the proposition of dealing with this problem on the gross rental. I was brought rapidly to the conclusion that if that method were adopted, defensible as it might be from many points of view, it was obviously a method which was going to hit industry as a whole very materially at a period in the history of the development of our country when it would be most unfortunate to hit industry. If you take a course of that kind, it is going to have a repercussion upon the employment of our people, upon the ability of the industries to pay wages, and, ultimately, more seriously to hit them. We have, therefore, proceeded on the lines neither of adopting the gross rental method nor that of the Public Health, but by a scheme, which is explained to the House in the White Paper, and in the Memorandum on the front of the Bill. We take houses and shops, which are the largest rateable items in the country, and basing them as the datum line, rating them upon the gross, we then set up a Schedule of deductions of a fixed nature. You could not have achieved any scheme of this kind without enlarging your areas, and without very careful consideration of the effect which such a Schedule would have upon the conflicting interests with which we have to deal, and I would only like to say at this stage, that while there may be many matters which are open for discussion in Committee, and for adjustment in detail with regard to certain interests and industries, I would point out to hon. Members on all sides of the House that any material interference with the scheme as it is drawn up in the Schedule would be almost impracticable.
If you take house property and shops rated on the gross, I would like to say that this scheme does not materially endanger the interests concerned. If you take a case in a particular district where a householder may now be paying, say, £10 in rates, under this scheme, as far as I can judge, he would not be called upon to pay more than 1s. 6d. increase for the whole of the year, and if you take the figures of a great city like Glasgow, where, as hon. Members know, you have houses and householders of all classes, and many of them of a poor class, it is estimated that the increase would only amount to 10d. If you had taken the other line, and transferred your burden to industry, as indicated by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, from the very fact that it was not so wide-based, you would inflict an infinitely greater injury upon industry, out of all proportion to any advantage which would accrue to the householder.
What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by 10d.—per pound or per head?
10d. per head per year.
Are we to understand that where the total rate payable by a householder has been £10, it would, as a result of this, be £10 0s. 10d.?
That is so. The alternative, of course, if it were taken would, as I was saying, place an enormous burden upon industry. That is to say, it was found that on great enterprises like steel works the burden would be enormously increased. This Bill, therefore, is based upon a reduction of the number of rates collecting authorities from 1,100 to 240. It is making it possible to send to the individual the rate notice on a single paper. We are continuing the advantage to the ratepayer of paying by instalments; indeed, if he chooses to pay in advance, he can get certain advantages. There will be, on the demand notice, a complete outline of the separate rates which have got to be met. Therefore, every individual will know, and will be able to watch, how each individual rate is affecting him in his own locality. There are many of these points, into which, no doubt, we can go in greater detail in Committee. I would like to say, with regard to the abolition of the rate collection by parish councils, that while there may be in the minds of many a feeling of distrust as to that step, I think it is clear from what I have said, that it will be an economy, that it will lead to greater efficiency in that you will be able to appoint more whole-time men, and that, in the end, it will be of material advantage in the cheapening of the collection.
As to the future, it is said that this should be accompanied by another step— the reorganising of the services in connection with the parish councils. That is not for to-day, but let me observe that, if one did not proceed upon a system such as I am outlining, the ultimate step, whatever it may be—and I am not going to enter upon it at the present moment-would not be taken. I am anxious now only to draw attention to one or two material alterations which have been made in this Bill compared with the one which was originally introduced. Hon. Members will remember that in the first Bill there were certain Clauses relating to machinery. As a result of conferences in Scotland, it soon became apparent that all the interests concerned, that is to say, both the rating authorities and those who are interested in machinery, preferred that that should be left upon the existing basis, founded as it is upon cases settled in the Courts, which appeared to be well understood both by the rating authorities and the individual interests concerned. Therefore, except for one slight printing error, which will be put right, the points dealing with the rating of machinery have ceased to be in this Bill.
Then, with regard to the agricultural industry, in the first Bill there was a difference in the treatment of agricultural interests in the county and in the burgh. I have subsequently been able to arrange that there should be a similarity of treatment. Therefore, the position of the agriculturists in the burgh will be similar to that in the county. There is an important change proposed by the Bill with regard to the education rate. Prior to 1918, the parish was the area for educational purposes, and each parish bore the cost of its own educational requirements. The Education Act of that year placed the administration of education upon a county basis, but left the cost thereof, as far as requiring to be met by local rates, as a charge to be allocated among the several parishes in the county in proportion to their gross rental. One effect of that was to increase the education rate in rural parishes, in some of which the increase was of startling dimensions. If you take the parish of Drymen in Stirlingshire, where the total amount raised in the parish for education was £778 in the year previous to the Act of 1918, it rose to £7,236 in 1920–21 and £5,000 in 1921–22. The grievance which the increase occasioned was further aggravated by the fact that, although the allocation of the amount required by the education authority was made on the gross rental, it had to be assessed for, as in the case of other parish rates, upon net rental, with the result that the increase fell with much greater weight on some rateable subjects than on others. I think it is well known that this has been a defect which has been complained of for a considerable time. Parliament itself recognised that it was only a temporary arrangement. I am now proposing under the Bill that the cost of education, like administration, should be put upon a county basis—the education rate levied as a county rate. That, I am sure, will be accepted by hon. Members on all sides of the House connected with the administration of education.
There is, I think, one point in connection with this question of education to which I may refer. There are, as hon. Members know, certain endowments in various districts about which I have received representations from Members in all quarters of the House. They are not a large amount for the whole of Scotland, I think something like £8,000 per annum. Yet they represent to certain districts a question of enormous moment. I am not going deeply into this subject now. I will only say that this matter has been receiving my very careful consideration. I am satisfied that in some measure some of these moneys are being used for the purpose merely of relieving the rates and not directly for the purpose for which the original endowment was made. Be that as it may—I am not committed on the point—perhaps the most simple and suitable method would be to appoint some Commission to inquire into these particular endowments find settle, once and for all, how they should be used. In any case I am satisfied the matter is one with which we might be able to deal.
I will not detain the House at greater length at this time, but I should like to say that I am very willing, and, indeed, it is my duty, to listen to any representations which may be made upon any matter connected with this very intricate subject. I hope that my colleagues from Scotland will realise that it would be a serious disservice to our country as a whole if our deliberations upon this Bill are drawn out at too great length, and thus jeopardise in any measure the achievement of our passing this into law in the present Session. The urgency, as I said at the outset, of dealing with the problem which is involved in the abolition of Section 37 would be of itself sufficient ground for urging the immediate passage of this Measure, at any rate for the passage of it with such few alterations as it may require. On these grounds I venture to submit this Bill to the House in the belief that it will be a simplification and an economy, and would inflict the least hardship and the least transference of burden upon those on whom the rate falls, and that the Government, in framing and submitting this Measure to the House, have done it for the purpose of meeting these difficulties, and safeguarding, and inflicting the least possible hardship upon all concerned.
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) and two others on this side of the House. The position of Scotland in respect to Scottish rating is not a subject on which one can become entertaining, and I think most hon. Members here will not desire to speak on it at any great length. But the Bill and the Amendment which we are promoting this afternoon raise very important problems for our native country. If I could believe that adequate provision had been found on the lines suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland, it would be possible to dispense with a great deal of the criticism which can be advanced.
Let me deal, first of all, with one or two of the minor issues of the general character of the Bill. Scottish Members, of course, are familiar with the very wide variation in the size of the parish—the unit of administration in Scotland—ranging from very small parishes in the hills containing little more than 100 people or so, to the enormous parishes we find in a city like Glasgow. There is not the least doubt that the tendency of recent times has been, for various purposes, towards larger areas, and this Bill—in its main purpose—proposes to reduce the number of authorities for rating purposes, the number of which before the War was rather more than 1,100 to 234. There is always a great deal to be said for the argument that the spending authority should also be the rating and collecting authority. It must be plain to every hon. Member from Scotland that, as the Secretary of Scotland has said, there is a great deal of overlapping and waste in administration, and it is suggested that this Bill will effect a substantial economy by reducing the number of the rating authorities, and by the adoption of the other proposals of the Bill. All that is perfectly true in its way, but there are many hon. Members who fear that the parish council, especially under existing conditions of distress in many of the districts in Scotland, is going to be deprived of some of the power or the rights which it enjoys to-day. Quite frankly I do not take that view, because I regard this as only a rating proposal which in the interests of administrative economy we ought to support.
In the second place, there are various other proposals, all of which are of some importance. The Bill proposes to give certain powers to rating authorities in Scotland, no doubt on permissive lines, to give deductions in respect of rates which are paid at some date fixed by the local authority prior to the date on which these rates are actually due—a kind of discount for earlier payment of rates. The earlier payment of anything in Scotland is, of course, a tendency to be encouraged, but there are two sides to this problem. The idea seems to be to place the resources of the rates at the disposal of the rating authority, or into its pocket at the earliest possible moment, and presumably to reduce, so far as we possibly can, some of the temporary borrowing which the local authorities have to practice, So far that is presumably a gain or saving; but against that must be set any loss of the amount of the discount which the local authorities may suffer. If that were the whole point before us there might be no further argument to be put, but it is clear that very large numbers of ratepayers, under existing conditions, are not, in practice, able to pay their rates before they are due, and, therefore, they will get little advantage, if any at all, from a provision of this kind. The benefit will go to those who, for various reasons, are able to pay earlier than the others; but I am not quite sure that that is not going to put an extra burden, however slight, upon the great mass of the ratepayers. That is one of the general issues we must raise in greater detail in the Committee stage for the purpose of information.
Reference was also made by the Secretary for Scotland to the decision which the Government had reached in regard to the rating of machinery. It is a problem which has come before every Royal Commission on Taxation or Committee on Local Rating within recent times. Many of us are by no means clear whether we are to get a position in Scotland which appears substantially to be the case in England now. During the discussions on the English Bill an attempt was made to take two ingredients into the rating of machinery—the kind of plant associated with motive power, and the kind of plant associated with lighting and ventilation; two ingredients the absence of which or the divorce of which from the factory would make it not an intelligible proposition for factory purposes. I thought that on the whole that seemed to be a sound basis to take. During the Committee stage we will have to find out as best we may what will be the precise position of Scotland in a matter of this kind. These are some of the minor issues in the Bill.
All that is interesting enough in its way. But the large issue of this Bill is the system of deductions which is proposed from the gross rental for rateable purposes year by year. Here, I think, it is possible to become just as aggressive and violent as one can be on a technical subject like Scottish rating. This problem, for the purposes of our Debate this afternoon, dates back to Section 37 of the Poor Law Scotland Act, 1845. Under that Section there was a deduction from rental for the purposes of the parish rates, a deduction from the gross rental in respect of repairs, insurance, and certain other purposes. As the Secretary for Scotland pointed out, over a series of years a remarkable variety of practice grew up in our country in the actual deductions which were allowed. Very often, for the same class of property, the practice of parishes differed very widely, indeed, and it came to this: That there could be no reasonable or sensible defence of the mass of anomaly. If I remember aright the recommendation of the Dunedin Committee, it was, first of all, that that Section in the Act of 1845 should be wiped out, and that we should, for the purposes of the parish rates, adopt a uniform basis on the gross valuation year by year. The Dunedin Committee said that failing that solution there ought to be uniformity of practice in the treatment of the different classes of property as among the Scottish parishes. The Secretary for Scotland and the Government of the day have embarked on a policy which is very far removed from the first part of that recommendation of the Dunedin Committee. If hon. Members will observe the text of this Bill, they will see that it goes very far beyond the deduction in the Act of 1845, which deduction was restricted to parish rates. Now it is proposed to extend the system of deduction to all classes of rates, which are now to be collected by town councils and county councils in the kind of consolidated rate-collecting, which this Bill sets up.
We must, however, be fair in our argument on this point. Since 1845 many Scottish burghs and other local authorities have, by local Acts of Parliament, obtained powers to grant deductions in the case of certain classes of property within their jurisdiction. Side by side with deductions under the general provisions of the Section of the Act of 1845, we have other deductions permitted very largely by local Acts of Parliament. That is the state of affairs with which we have to deal. What course have the Government taken? They have ignored the principle which was embodied in the first part of the Dunedin Committee's recommendation and have fallen back upon the Clause which follows the words "failing that solution." Going beyond the sphere of the parish councils they have extended a system of deductions to the counties and burghs; it is to apply to the whole country and is to be regulated for different classes of property by the terms of the Schedule appended to this Bill, which Schedule, the Secretary for Scotland has warned us in advance, will not be modified during the Committee stage without very great difficulty indeed. Is that an ideal solution of the problem? The Secretary for Scotland seemed to indicate in his speech that to take the gross rental throughout would no doubt be the ideal solution, but that it would involve throwing great extra charges upon mills, factories and industrial plants throughout Scotland at a time when they are in the midst of industrial depression and when, by adding to their overhead charges for rates, we should render it more difficult for them to compete in industry, thus reducing the amount of employment they provide. There is a great deal to support that line of argument, but, after all, that is by no means the beginning and the end of this case.
This problem arose indirectly before the Royal Commission on Income Tax in 1919, and it has arisen, directly or indirectly, in every Committee which has reviewed the relationship of national to local expenditure in all the years that have gone; we know that on their Reports practically no action has been taken. The proper solution of this, as the Royal Commission itself indicated, is to adopt—for the purposes of Income Tax, which has always seemed to be the real test—a scheme for depreciation, for wasting assets, and for the other kindred problems which arise year by year in factory administration. If that be done we should get the concession upon a proper basis—upon what the industry is doing and, roughly and broadly speaking, on what the industry is making with reference to profits. I do not think we help the situation by embedding in this Bill a scheme which the Government, on analysis, is bound to admit is full of all kinds of anomalies.
Let us take one or two of the anomalies. There is no explanation of the method by which the percentage deductions in the Schedule of the Bill have been decided. There is not the least doubt that they do involve some modification of what has been achieved under local Acts of Parliament, and the Secretary for Scotland, I understand, proposes to take certain powers under the form of Order to enable him to adjust differences. The concessions were given originally because of repairs and other charges, and in other cases they have been given because it was argued that such undertakings did not get any benefit from much of the expenditure which local authorities undertake. That argument was valid enough some years ago, but it cannot be pleaded with any real force at the present time, because there is no industrial establishment that does not, indirectly or directly, get benefit from the great bulk of the expenditure undertaken by a local authority. The Bill does not remove these anomalies in any way. It gives a scale which has an appearance of uniformity, and gives very substantial concessions to industrial establishments by way of deductions, to the broad loss of the ratepayers as a whole. Furthermore, it is perfectly sound to argue that although these are supposed to be overhead and fixed charges, industrial practice has changed to such an extent that many firms, especially those of a monopoly or quasi-monopoly character, can pass those charges on to the consumer, and, in fact, are doing so regularly to-day. The plain and clear course, it seems to me, is to get rid of all these anomalous deductions, to take the basis of the gross rental, and to look for the remedy in other and more practical spheres. That is the plan we are trying to incorporate in this Amendment. We do not believe this to be a real solution of the central issue in Scottish rating, and if there were no other count against the Bill, that count would justify our action in going into the Division Lobby against the Second Reading.
I think the Secretary for Scotland was right in claiming that economies will be effected by this Bill, but perhaps too modest. It is obvious that the large reduction in the number of collecting authorities which the Bill will effect will result in an immediate and a very large economy, but apart from that altogether the Bill will, indirectly, lead to very much larger savings. Any man who gets the cost of local services notified to him on a variety of rate-demand notes from a variety of authorities, has his mind distracted and does not always realise what the total cost of this local government is. While we rejoice in our system of local government, there is a feeling that it is a somewhat costly luxury, and we want to focus the attention of the electorate on the total cost. By concentrating the charges in one demand note instead of spreading them over several we secure this. One very certain result of this Bill will be that the ratepayer will give much more critical attention to the expenditure of local bodies. We hope the hint provided by this Bill that the policy of the Scottish Office in matters of local government will be in the direction of consolidation, will be amplified in the future. The old divisions of parish, borough and county, while still of great historical interest, no longer serve the purposes for which they were designed in earlier days. Science has reduced the size of county areas in such a way that travel from one end of a county to the other is easier to-day than was travel from one end of a parish to the other in earlier times; and one hopes that the desire for efficiency combined with economy will produce more consolidation in the future.
Real criticism of this Bill will be much more appropriate to the Committee stage, and therefore I will confine myself to taking some notice of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham). If I may say so without any disrespect, the right hon. Gentleman has somewhat confused taxes with rates: the one being related to income and the other being related to service, and service of a personal character. The theory of the justification for a rate is this: As against the rate a man pays he obtains a return of something like personal service. The datum line therefore must be drawn somewhere at the household. The deductions which have been made from the gross valuation have not been capriciously made, but in order to reconcile the rating of a factory with the constitutional theory which underlies rating. It was therefore necessary to shed so much of the gross valuation as would approximate the net valuation to something representing the value of service obtained for the rate paid. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment ignores a vital distinction, and shows a definite misapprehension of the theory underlying local rating. I beg of him to believe that there has been nothing capricious about the deductions made hitherto in the assessment of industrial undertakings. I agree that as there was no definite rule fixed, and that as in making these deductions all that was being done was to satisfy the theory I have been adumbrating of adjusting the burdens to the service received, we got in the result a variation in deductions which was very irritating. The Bill seeks to correct that. The Bill does not depart from the principle I have mentioned, but, whilst preserving that principle, it seeks to harmonise the deductions so as to make them correspond in different parishes all over the country in the case of similar properties.
I entirely agree with the appeal made by the Secretary for Scotland to the right hon. Gentleman opposite who claim to represent, in some special sense, but why I know not, the working classes. I also represent the working classes of my own county, and more particularly those engaged in the Scottish oil field and the shale industry. This particular industry has recently been going through a most serious crisis and the present one is a more serious crisis than it has ever been called upon to bear before. The oil field to which I refer pays about £60,000 a year in local rates. The retorts and refineries used in the industry have been allowed a deduction of 80 per cent. They have got that deduction as a direct result of a most carefully considered judgment of Lord Kinnear in an action some years ago dealing with this very point. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh will read that considered judgment, he will see why that deduction was given and he will also see the difference between the theory underlying taxation and the theory underlying rating. Under that judgment 80 per cent, is the deduction which is allowed to be made. I shall raise this point again when we reach the Committee stage when I shall seek to secure a rating not less burdensome under this Bill than that achieved by the judgment to which I have referred.
For instance, if the Bill were allowed to pass in its present form, the deduction in the case of the Scottish oil field instead of being 80 per cent. would only be 6 per cent. We require these deductions in the shale industry to enable us to produce oil at a cost that will enable, us to compete with the oil imported from abroad. The deductions allowed in this oil field for retorts, refineries, and so forth range from 50 to 70 per cent., and I shall ask that the deduction allowed under this Bill and its Schedule will approximate to these figures. I know that is a matter for the Committee stage, but I hope that the explanation I have given, and the respectful examination I have made of the arguments used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh, will convince Members opposite that their view would do a distinct injury to the principal industry in my county. Only one-third of the workers therein are now employed. But we are hoping to rapidly attain to our full complement of workers if the coal crisis were over. If Members opposite succeeded in their argument, those works would be closed down for ever, because they would be swamped with the rates, and it would destroy at once the livelihood of some 40,000 people over the whole Scottish oilfield. I hope this is a consideration which will weigh with the right hon. Gentleman, and I trust that he will realise the seriousness of his effort to impose such a burden on the industry to which I have referred. Those views would destroy a great wage fund, and at the same time the living of thousands, because it would mean the closing down of the oilfield. My statement on this point cannot be challenged. I know it will alarm my right hon. Friend when he realises that the Labour party, by supporting this proposal, are doing something likely to bring the disastrous consequences which I have indicated.
I shall not attempt to follow the hon Member who has just sat down in his interesting speech because I know there are other hon. Members who, in contributing to this Debate, can draw upon the experience of a lifetime spent in local government in Scotland, and are anxious to get the opportunity of speaking on the Measure. I wish, however, to dissociate myself from the theory put forward by the hon. Member for Linlithgow, that rates are entirely based upon services received. Surely ability to pay has been one of the principal elements in the rating system in this country. If a man (A) lives in a small house alongside a man (B) who lives in a large house, he reecives the same services as (B), but will pay less rates than his neighbour, and this clearly shows that ability to pay as well as services are taken into account in assessment for rates.
I thought I made it clear that there is one theory with regard to taxes and a different theory with regard to rates. When you are reconciling practice with theory you are not using an inch tape. You can only hope to approximate your practice to the theory as nearly as possible.
Then probably the hon. and learned Member will agree with me that, whereas the true position is that the theory of taxation is that taxes should be levied solely in accordance with ability to pay, the theory of rating is that rates should be levied partly in accordance with services received and partly in accordance with ability to pay. I understand that there are certain parish council officers who, if their services are dispensed with will be entitled to compensation. On the other hand there are certain officers employed by the county council at the present time, and if the county councils should prefer to employ the officers who are now serving under contract with the parish councils and appoint them owing to their superior local knowledge and dispense with the services of those who are now employed by the county councils, there is no provision in the Bill for paying compensation to those officers because the provision inserted in this Measure only applies to the officers appointed by the parish councils. I understand that there are technical difficulties owing to precedents which have been established in similar Bills before which make it difficult to give compensation to the officers employed by the county councils under these circumstances. Therefore, I ask the Secretary for Scotland to consider whether this difficulty can be overcome in some way in order to safeguard the position of those officers who are now serving under the county councils whose services might be dispensed with without the payment of compensation.
I want to say a word or two with regard to the position of parish councils under this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment spoke of the wide difference there was in the size of parishes in Scotland, but I was a little surprised when he contrasted the little parishes in the hills with the large parishes in Glasgow. I would rather put it the other way. I think the geographical aspect of the matter is extremely important, because in thickly populated areas you have parish councils with large populations controlling great resources of income, but after all they have only a very small range of interests inside those parishes. You might have some central body as the rating authority for large parishes in Glasgow, but it would be much more difficult to attempt to apply that system to places like the Highlands.
There are instances in Sutherland-shire, where the parishes are as large as a whole county, You have sparsely populated parishes with a large number of glens and a small number of people, but they all have particular interests and the ability to pay changes from glen to glen and from season to season, and according to the particular climate you may have in a particular season. In one season you may have a thunder plump which will destroy the crops in a particular glen and affect its ability to pay as compared with people 10 or 15 miles away in the same parish. If you transfer the rating functions of parish councils to town councils and county councils in the scattered popula- tions, you will be doing something which will not lead to economy but to something absolutely the reverse of economy, and which will at the same time reduce the efficiency of the services rendered to the population in those remote districts.
The Secretary for Scotland used some very ominous words about the further steps which he proposes to take in dealing with the parish councils, but I would like to remind him that the parish councils are an invaluable and indispensable feature of our social organisation in the Highland counties of Scotland. I therefore, appeal to the Secretary for Scotland to give us some assurance that under this Act he will leave the rating powers of the parish councils where they now stand, and also assure us that he does appreciate the tremendous services which these local parish councils in remote districts do render to the people in those districts, and I hope he will also assure us that he does not intend in any way to reduce the powers which they now possess.
5.0 P.M.
I cannot support the Amendment which has been proposed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, because I do not think it expresses any substantial objections to this Bill. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd) has put forward a new theory which I think must have emanated from his own brain with regard to the difference between the theory of rates and the theory of taxes. If he had really considered the matter he would have gone back to the old history of rating, which goes back to 1175, the time of King William the hon, when rates were not for services rendered but to support the poor. That is the foundation, of rating by parish councils. The new theory is that it is for services rendered. All taxation is for services rendered. We are all paying for the services of the Army and Navy, although, of course, we do not pay for the special constables. We are all paying rates and taxes, and they are both more or less based upon the same principle. Consequently, that argument falls to the ground.
Through the Etna case in 1924, rates became so high, and that had such a deadly effect and produced such chaos in rating that I am quite satisfied that the Secretary for Scotland and the local authorities should try to get a Measure through at once to remedy it. But I am not in favour of his using that decision as a kind of Trojan horse to try to introduce a fundamental change in the method of collecting rates. When he comes here and tells us that consolidation means economy, I reply that we have heard that story far too often in this House. We were told that when the railways were consolidated there would be enormous economies. We know that we have been overcharged since. These consolidations all end in much larger expenditure; there is never the same service or the same economy; you have more and more highly paid officials. That is what is at the bottom of this Bill. It is a bureaucracy Bill, a Bill to some extent proceeding from the big parishes like Glasgow and others that it suits, but it is utterly opposed to the interests of the scattered districts. As to this suggestion that instead of having this large collection of 1,100 parish councils you will get the number down to 234. I say that will not diminish in the slightest the cost of collection. It will only be more centralised, and it will mean further to go afield, more postages, more clerks, and probably a head man at the top of it getting a much larger salary than would otherwise be needed.
A lawyer.
It might be even higher if he were an engineer. All these changes inevitably lead to the creation of costs. Then there is another statement made, which comes very well from one who is accustomed to dealing with trust accounts like the hon. Member for Linlithgow. We may understand these masses of figures, but what about the ordinary ratepayer? You are not simplifying the demand notes one bit by combing a big mass of figures on one piece of paper, instead of sending each demand note in as a separate piece of paper. You are only confusing the ratepayer all the more by your big balance sheet. It is quite possible that there will be from 27 to 38 different entries in different places summarised under different heads. All this may be sent out to the wretched ratepayer. That is not simplification but simply confusion and making it more difficult for him to criticise the rates. It would be much better for him to receive his single de- mand note from time to time, and it would be better if the Government, instead of doing this, were to allow election addresses to be sent to him free of charge. If he got his demand notes separately, he would see how much education was costing him, and he would wonder what he was getting for it. He would get the poor rate demand separately, and, of course, he would realise that he was doing his duty as a Christian. All these different things come in one by one. It would also be very easy for the man of very small means to pay his rates if they were estimated in different sums, and sent out by different people. As to paying by instalments, as far as I can see there will only be two instalments. Any system of paying by more instalments will not assist very much. It will not assist in the bookkeeping, because it will mean that they have got to look up a big folio to see when a man paid his last instalment. It would be much simpler if he came in and paid the last demand note.
There is a fundamental difficulty, although the Secretary for Scotland and his advisers are making the usual prophecy which those who want to see a consolidation and centralisation always make. As to the figure of £50,000 which he gave, it may be that in Glasgow, but it will be much more in the outlying parts. There you may have one man getting a few pounds a year for doing his duty as parish clerk, and having various occupations as well. If you are going to have your full-time man, it will be much more expensive for the poorer parts of the country. It would be better to have the part-time men, because it will be much more expensive to have full-time men than part-time men collecting rates. There is also the fact that nothing leads more to economy if you are spending an income than if you have to earn it yourself. You are much more careful how you spend it then. If you get it through somebody else, it comes easily and it goes easily. At the present moment the parish council have to earn their income by collecting it themselves and therefore they are more careful and more economical. But if they have a prospect of collecting it from somebody else there will not be anything like the same in- ducement to economy. This is only a beginning of further legislation—
I think it would be right if I corrected the hon. and learned Member and another hon. Member. I think they are under a misapprehension. I never said that the Government had made up their minds on that; I said that there were people who said that this ought to be followed by further legislation, or rather that legislation touching these other affairs ought to be included. I said that that would have further consideration.
I absolve the Secretary for Scotland on that. I am thinking of the other people who are at the back of this Bill and pushing it. I am a fairly good weather prophet, and I realise that this is the beginning of an attempt to centralise all the local administration. I believe the parish council is a very vital thing in the life of the country districts. I think it has done the cause of education immense harm by centralising it. I believe in keeping all these local things alive in order to keep local interest alive and to stimulate it. Moreover, you always have the personal touch. In Argyll you will find that many of the officers are occupied by administrators who do not want to be concerned with gas and water, but who realise that it is their duty to look after the poor, which is a large part of their business. This Bill is the beginning, I prophesy, of an attempt to centralise. So far as it is that, it is a rash Bill, a reactionary Bill, a Bill which is the outcome of officialdom, and not a progressive Bill. In so far as it is going to remedy that disastrous case, the Etna case, which has been the law for many years but has not been enforced, I would appeal to him to withdraw the other parts of this Bill, and then to introduce his Bill which is going to deal with the whole Poor Law question for Scotland, not in this detailed step by step form, but as a whole. Then we can see, and the people can express their minds on it as a whole.
I am sure Members on this side of the House will be thankful for this Bill now. We were always persuaded that the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) could never become a Progressive. Now he is obviously anxious to become a Progressive Member of the House, and therefore we have something for which to thank the Secretary for Scotland. I do not propose to follow him in his arguments against the Bill. I believe there are points in it worthy of the consideration of this House. I believe there are advantages in it, and that there are economies which may be effected if the Bill is passed by the House. The anomalies, for instance, in connection with the collection of rates for education are now going to be wiped out. That is one of the things on which the education authorities have been concentrating for many years, practically since the 1918 Education Act was brought into operation. Under that Act the education authorities were compelled to assess on the gross and to collect on the net, with the result that we have the anomalies referred to by the Secretary for Scotland. This Bill will at least remove some of those anomalies so far as the rural areas are concerned. Speaking for one education authority at least and also speaking as a member of the executive of the education authorities, we welcome the wiping out of the anomalies as far as the education rate is concerned.
There is one point I would like to recommend to the consideration of the Secretary for Scotland, for fear there should be a misunderstanding as to his statement. He referred to the fact that, owing to having the county made the unit for education in 1918, we had an enormous jump in rates as far as the rural areas were concerned. I am sure he would be the last to suggest that that was due entirely to making the county as the unit for educational administration. The big jump in educational rates was due to other factors than merely making the county the unit. Teachers were miserably underpaid; schools were miserably understaffed; there were a thousand and one things to be remedied; the salaries of teachers had to be increased in some cases by 300 per cent, and in other cases by 350 per cent.; new schools had to be built, and from five to eight years of building had to be made up in other cases. Those were real factors which caused the jump in the cost of education, which was only partly the result of making the county the unit for administration.
The rating authority is now to be the county in place of the parish. I should have preferred that this should have been a Bill to deal with a new system of col- lecting the moneys necessary in connection with local administration. I also dissent entirely from the view expressed by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd), and I do not think that anyone else in this House will subscribe to the view that rates are collected locally in accordance with the services rendered. If that were so, it would be a mighty bad business so far as I am concerned, or so far as anyone is concerned who has a large family. The larger the family, the bigger the service obtained, but you do not pay according to the services you get, but according to the house in which you live. Personally, I think that is wrong; I think people ought to pay according to their ability to pay. I believe we ought to have a new system of rating on an income basis. I believe it is entirely wrong to penalise a man who may strive to live in a better house. We all know that when a man strives to get into a better house his income is exactly the same, but because he is striving to get out of the slums, and has succeeded in getting a higher rated house, although his income is the same he has to pay in some instances double his previous amount of local taxation. That seems to be unfair. I should have preferred this to be a Bill, not merely for collecting rates, but for the purpose of dealing with an entirely new system of collecting what is necessary for the carrying on of local administration and the carrying through of local services.
I also want to refer to a statement that was made by the Secretary for Scotland. It is quite true that he did not say he was going to introduce new legislation dealing with the Poor Law, but he did point out, and it has been said by others, that this was but the forerunner of some new system of dealing with Poor Law and local administration. He further pointed out that, before these things which have been suggested can be done, it would be necessary to have a new system of collection of rates as the basis. I do not think the Secretary for Scotland will dispute what I am saying. One of the dangers of this Bill is that it is but a forerunner, as the Secretary for Scotland has said, but another danger is that it is going to be the basis for a new system of Poor Law administration. I believe that the county ought to be the unit in connection with the Poor Law rate, just as it is now being decided that the county shall be the unit and that there shall be uniformity in connection with education. I believe the parish councils ought to be continued, so that they can keep in close touch with the poor people in their districts, in order that there may be a more humane touch. Unfortunately, there is not much humanity connected with some parish councils that I know of, but still I believe there is a better chance of a human touch in connection with the administration if the parish council is in close touch with the poor people in the district.
As I have already said, I am pleased to see that Clause 37 of the Act of 1845 is going to be wiped out. I regret very much that we are not going to have a system of collecting on the gross. I do not believe in the deductions set out in the Schedules to this Bill; I believe it ought to be on the first figure that is agreed to in the valuation of a property, and that, if deductions are required, people should go to the Valuation Court, and, the Valuation Court having decided what is the real value for rating purposes, the collection ought to be made upon that so far as local rates are concerned, until such time as a Bill has been introduced for the purpose of assessment in accordance with ability to pay, instead of merely on the rental of the property in which a man lives or from which he gets his income. I believe that that is wrong, and that industry is being penalised at the present time by the present method of rating. One particular firm may be making a profit of £1,000 with an assessable rental of £100, while another firm may be making a loss of £100, and yet may be highly assessed, merely because of the valuation of their property. I trust that this Bill may be withdrawn by the Secretary for Scotland, so that we may have, not merely a Bill for collecting rates, but a change in the system of collecting what is necessary for running local services, and that the Secretary for Scotland will not be afraid of some great revolutionary change. This revolution that he has introduced is, in his own words, a revolution to bring about as little change as possible, and as little upset as possible in the existing arrangements and the existing system. I trust that, sooner or later—I hope sooner —he will bring in a system for raising local taxation in accordance with ability to pay, instead of the stupid method that we have at the present time.
I desire to raise one special point with regard to a matter in which I think the hon. Member for Peebles (Mr. Westwood) is also interested, as I think we are the only two Scottish Members who are members of Education Authorities. It is with regard to educational trusts. I happen to be a member of the Education Authority for the County of Perth, where some colleagues of mine are much perturbed in regard to some educational trusts in which they are interested, and I desire to elicit a statement from the Government on this point. I will give one instance. The parish of Callender, through the kindness of a most generous donor some years ago, has an income of no less than £700 a year, which at this moment, rightly or wrongly—I do not presume to discuss it—goes to the relief of the rates in that parish. £700 is a large sum. It amounts to a rate of at least 7d. in the £ in that parish, divided equally between owners and occupiers.
The Education Act of 1918 was very careful in preserving those educational trusts to the parishes in which they were given, and, indeed, a most respected Member of this House, who is now in another place—Sir George Younger, as he then was—raised this very question in a Debate in this House. I will not trouble to read quotations, but he said it looked as if these trusts might be diverted. Mr. Munro immediately got up and said he would soon put that right, and would see that they were not diverted from the parishes to which they were specifically left; and the words were inserted which appear now to be repealed by th Third Schedule to this Bill. Some of my friends have asked me to raise this question. I am not going to trouble the House for more than one further minute about it, but I should like some statement to be made for the benefit of my friends with regard to the position of these trusts. It would appear to some of us that it is not the right way to encourage generous people to leave money in the future for specific purposes in their own parishes if these moneys are, as is suggested under this Bill, going to be pooled for the whole county. Of course, as I have said, I am a member of the education authority of Perth, and this £700 will go into the pool and will help in some manner, perhaps to the extent of a fraction of a farthing, to reduce taxation; but the people of Callender, for whom this money was originally left, will not be in any better position than if the late Mr. MacLaren had not left that £25,000, which brings in £700 a year, for the benefit of a parish which he loved so well and for which he did so much.
Would the hon. Member mind, because this is a very important point from the point of view of educational administration, explaining whether that money in Callender was left to benefit education, or merely to reduce the rates of the ratepayers in Callender?
My hon. Friend knows something about it, I see. I was going to leave that explanation to the Lord Advocate, who will be able to throw some light on it which will give pleasure to both my hon. Friend and myself I do not think I will go into the question any further.
I should like to make a few remarks with regard to this Bill, from the point of view of one who lives m the country in Scotland and who has been for some years associated with local government in his county. I think the House will join with me in complimenting my right hon. Friend on his very clear exposition of this Bill, and I think the House will also agree that the Secretary for Scotland and the Scottish Office have, by the mode of procedure they have adopted, taken very great pains to obtain a good Bill Last autumn they brought forward a Bill which was different from this one. It was circulated, and we had a full opportunity of examining the proposals in it. The people of Scotland had their opportunity also of expressing their opinion about it, and we had numerous representations from a great many bodies and from deputations giving the opinions of various people on the proposals in that first Bill. Then, after Easter, the Bill was reissued in a new form, with all the experience and with all the criticism that the Scottish Office had received. The result, I think, has been that the Bill has been improved in that process. It may not have been a perfect Bill. The subject is a very difficult one, and the Bill which is now presented is good in parts—there are some good things about it and some which are not so good.
Let me say a few words about the various items in the Bill. I think there is no doubt that the proposals of this Bill will introduce an improvement in regard to uniformity of rating, simplicity and clearness. I agree with a great deal that was said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) in regard to the small chance of great economies resulting from its leading proposal, and also as to the necessity for maintaining the personal touch with regard to the parish councils. I do hope that this is not really a forerunner of the abolition of parish councils, at any rate in the country districts. I think, however, that we are going to have a much clearer and simpler and more uniform system of rating when this Bill passes than we have at the present time. We shall have a new form of valuation roll, which will show the annual value of each subject, the deductions, if any, which are laid down in this Bill, and the sum on which that subject is to be assessed for rates. It will be the same for parish councils, county councils, and, indeed, for everything, which I think will be a great advantage. I do not know that any great economies will result so far as the country districts are concerned. I believe that in the large cities there will be a great economy from the adoption of this new system, but as regards the country districts I do not see where the economy is going to come in. I know that our parish rates are collected in a very economical way, by small men who take a great interest in the subject, who know their business well, and who do their work well. They are people to whom the people of the parish can go quite easily for information. They do not require to go to Coupar, or Lanark, or some distant county town, and waste a whole day of their working life in making some inquiry. I think that that is a point which ought to be considered by the Government, and I would ask them to consider, in connection with Clauses 1 and 2, whether they cannot give some locus to these people who are doing that work so well, in order that they may continue collecting the rates for the county council, even although the valuation roll is going to be simplified.
I quite approve of the change that is going to be made with regard to the education rate. The system which was introduced by the Munro Act has acted very hardly upon country parishes, who have had to contribute a great deal more towards education than they have received in their own parishes and in their own neighbourhoods, Now the mode of assessment is going to be changed in a way which I believe will relieve the country parishes of a great deal of the charge that has been rather unjustly put upon them. I wish the Secretary for Scotland had gone a little further. I am an advocate of district rating, and not county rating, for education, and if this were an Education Bill I should advocate district management as well as district rating. I think it is a pity that the opportunity afforded by the introduction of this Bill has not been taken to introduce a system of keeping the accounts of each district in a large county separate one from the other. I know that a great many people in Scotland agree with me in this view, which I have advocated on previous occasions in this House. Again, the abolition of what is called the average rate in counties has met with approval in the county councils and from everybody concerned. There is very little in it. It entails a great deal of calculation and confusion, and I think it is a very good thing that it is going to be done away with.
Then there is the exemption of churches and manses from rating which exists at present. That also is going to be done away with, and I see that none of the clergy have said anything against that being done. There is one person who is going to lose by it, and that is the heckler at elections. He is going to be deprived of a very favourite question. Then we have the discount on collecting the rate. I think this should be obligatory, and not optional, as provided in the Bill. Another great change, as compared with the Bill brought forward in the autumn, is the omission of the machinery Clause altogether. The rating of machinery is to be left as it is in Scotland. I have only one remark to make upon that subject. I hope that the Scottish Office con- siders subjects of that kind, not merely from the point of view of fairness between one Scotsman and another, but also from the point of view of fairness between Scotland and England. I believe the rating of machinery will be rather more severe in Scotland than it is at present in England, and, if that be the case, it will be a premium in favour of new firms starting their businesses and building factories and so on in England rather than in Scotland. I do not know if I am correct in that assumption, but I put that forward as a subject which ought to be considered by the Scottish Office before they come to a definite and final conclusion on the matter.
Now I come to some points on which I rather disagree with the proposals of the Bill. I have spoken already about the small chance of economy so far as the rural districts are concerned, and the great pity that it would be to deprive the country of the services of the present collectors of rates in the parishes. They are people with small salaries. They generally combine in themselves half-a-dozen different offices, for which they get, say, £5 or £10 a year each. If you deprive them of one or more of these small offices, they will be driven to ask for higher salaries in respect of the offices which remain. Then more work will be given to the central collecting bodies in the counties, and they will immediately begin to assail you with a demand for higher wages in consideration of the greater work which they have to do. I agree with other speakers as to the ominous hint which has been given as to subsequent abolition of the parish councils as the Poor Law authorities. I hope there is no intention on the part of the present occupants of the Government Bench to bring in any legislation of that kind, and I trust that the administration of the Poor Law will be left as it is for many years to come.
I have spoken about the failure to introduce district rating for education, and there is also an anomaly similar to what I have alluded to before when I spoke about the machinery in the Schedule. The deduction, so far as owners are concerned, is less than that which is given to occupiers. That may be justifiable with regard to large estates and to owners of land who let farms, but we are going to have a great many more owner-occupiers in the country than we have ever had before, and that is the most hopeful movement which I think we had in the agricultural world, and one to which we ought, in my opinion, to give every encouragement. I have made a calculation that, if the proposals as they stand are carried out, the owner-occupier of a farm in Scotland will be paying double the rates of a similar farm situated on the South of the Border. That arises from the fact that on a previous occasion the grant under the Agricultural Rates Act which belonged to the owner's half of the rates was not given to the owner, but was spent in some other way. The occupier got his share of the grant, but the owner's half was disposed of by the Government of that day in some other direction. Consequently, we have that disparity, and it is one which I think is well worth considering, and the Government ought to approach the Treasury with regard to the matter and try to take the present opportunity of putting it right. In spite of what my right hon. Friend has said about the difficulty of introducing appropriate Amendments on the Committee stage, I think we ought to endeavour, as Scottish Members, to do the best for our country by removing any of the difficulties which appear to us to exist in the proposals embodied in the Bill. With that reservation I shall give it my most hearty support.
I do not propose to deal at any great length with the general views of this Bill on the Second Reading, because my right hon. Friend has so fully dealt with the matter already, but I should like to remind the House of the reasons which have brought the Bill before us just now. They are not of recent growth, because at least as far back as 1902, at the time of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation, we found suggested and advised in the Report of the Royal Commission much of what we find in the present Bill, which, in the opinion of many of us, has had too long to wait already for the reforms to be carried out. We had subsequently, in 1922, the Dunedin Committee, who also followed very largely the same lines of recommendation as the Royal Commission of 20 years previously. Then we had the Rating of Machinery Committee last year, which dealt incidentally with some of the matters we are concerned with here, and we also had the important Etna Foundry judgment, which gave the final coup to Section 37 of the Act of 1845, the abolition of which had long been claimed by almost every administrative body in Scotland. If you abolish Section 37 of the Act of 1845, it means that you must have a system of uniform deductions in place of the particular deductions in this case which are prescribed in Section 37. If you are going to have a uniform set of deductions, obviously it is only convenient to have them as applying to the whole country, and not in individual parishes only. That leaves, of course, the question as to whether the rating authority is going to be the parish or the county, because in either event you could abolish Section 37 and have your uniform deductions applied uniformly throughout the country, but whether you have your rating authority the county and borough or the parish, you get into the same difficulties about the distinction as between the gross and the net to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite addressed a considerable part of his remarks.
Many of us who are Utopians and would like to see the best we can get would prefer, I think at any rate, rating purely on the gross. There is a very great deal to be said for it. I am not sure how far a local Income Tax rating, for instance, is popular or otherwise, generally speaking, but at any rate it is far too speculative or theoretical a suggestion to be practicable at present. Truly, we are faced with only the two alternatives, rating on the gross and rating on the net. My right hon. Friend has already explained quite fully enough perhaps the reasons which led us to adopt the latter alternative of rating on the net. The Dunedin Committee, who were in favour of rating on the gross, even on that basis felt themselves unable to get away from differential rating, therefore they found themselves—and they were a very expert Committee—unable to get pure rating on the gross, and they said that the differential rating existing in the boroughs would have to be extended to the country as well. That shows that the gross, however desirable it may be theoretically, is an almost impossible Utopian basis of incidence to arrive at. There was, of course, in addition the education rate anomaly, on which I think opinion is unanimous that that should be put right. It did not result necessarily in heavier rating in the counties. What it resulted in was heavier rating of particular parishes, mostly of a particular class. The parish which had big railways or big waterworks in it was the parish that suffered, because in the allocation of the education rate for the whole county it was divided, taking into account the big waterworks or the big railways. But when they came to rate the individual ratepayers, they could only get a very small percentage out of the waterworks and the railways, and the ratepayers in the parish had to bear a larger burden than the flat rate in consequence. I need not say more about that, because everyone is agreed it is an anomaly which should be put right, and it will be put right by the Bill. That is a county and not the parish rating question.
Then let me deal with some of the individual points. The hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) suggested that the compensation Clauses should have been appropriate to compensate servants of the county councils who, subsequent to this Bill coming into operation, were superseded by the county council, preferring to take the old parish employés in their place. It would indeed be a novel principle that Parliament should prescribe by Statute as to which servants or whom county councils were to take or not to take, and equally novel to prescribe that compensation should be paid for not retaining an office the work of which had not been affected or superseded by the Act itself. The whole basis of these compensation Clauses is that the work of a particular office or a particular employment is taken away from that employee. A post, so to speak, is deleted and obliterated, and it is only fair to give compensation. On the other hand, the rating authority, with its additional rating duties, the county council, is having its scope of employment enlarged, and it would indeed be a novel principle to suggest that there was any room for statutory compensation being prescribed in a case of that kind.
The other point the hon. Baronet referred to was touched on by some other speakers and it really arose on the question whether economies would be effected by this Bill. The Royal Commission of 1902 had not the slightest doubt that the result of unification of collection would necessarily result, as it has done in instances in Ireland to which they referred and other instances, in not only simplification but economy. The amalgamation of railways has been referred to as an instance. I should have thought it was common knowledge that the problem of the railways is not one of economy, but of want of income, and they have not had any real chance of showing any true benefit of the economies which will result from amalgamation. I myself have heard it given in evidence in Court that in Edinburgh, for instance, the result of the unification of certain rates there—the water rate and, I think, gas, too—was that very substantial financial economy was effected. One must bear in mind that the economy you make in the present case, as in most cases, is not perhaps so much in the actual people employed as in the machinery used. In the present case where the economy will come in will be in the calculations for the purposes of levying the rate and the people employed to make those calculations and in the demand notes and the necessary papers you have to issue. The question of how many collectors you employ is only a small question relatively on the question of whether you are going to get economy or not. Receipt stamps, too—obviously you will have economy there. All those things will form collectively the major part of the economy and what has been touched on by several hon. Members is a comparatively small matter.
But I am entitled to suggest that after all every reasonable local rating authority that is going to collect rates will employ the method by which it will get the closest collection at a reasonable cost and therefore if, as seems to be the natural thing, the county council find that the local man who is doing it at present is the best man and will make the closest collection they will continue that employment. It has been suggested already that the type of person who is collecting parish rates in many cases combines duties for various employers already, and there will be nothing now or objectionable to him to take on the county council as well in place of the parish council. I apprehend these things work out pretty reasonably and that no great difficulty or hardship will be experienced on that score. If he is not employed he will be entitled to compensation, and that, of course, will be an additional incentive to the county council rather to employ the local man, who is familiar with the people and knows how to make the collection, than to have to offer him compensation.
Hon. Members have referred to the question of possible further legislation in the direction of enlarging the administrative area as well as the rate collecting area. The answer to that is very simple. If there was any intention of doing that at present we should not waste time over this Bill. We should do it in one Bill, because it is clear we should do it far more effectively and easily by dealing with the whole matter at once instead of bothering with rate unification in the meantime. Therefore it should make the parish councils, if anything, a little more comfortable and easy that this step is being taken instead of taking the whole step at once. It suggests that the matter is being deferred, if we ever had such thoughts in our mind at all. The hon. Member for South Midlothian (Mr. Westwood), who also had a preference for rating on the gross valuation and objects to deductions, would prefer it on ability to pay. But surely the whole object of the deductions is to get nearer to ability to pay than you do on the gross. Of course, ability to pay is a most misleading phrase. Some criticism has been passed by the hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) with which I agree, but surely while prior to 1845 as regards the Poor rates the rating was on means and subsistence as was suggested, although it remained a legitimate method alternatively, it has never been used since the Act of 1845 was passed, and the truth is that it is the ability of the property to pay that the present rating system, broadly stated, depends on, and the question of the deduction helps to bring it nearer in theory, though not always in practice, to the ability of the property to pay, and it brings it nearer than the gross valuation because that is altogether apart from the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, which would base it on the ability of the person to pay it as distinguished from the ability of the property.
There was a point referred to by the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir S. Chapman) on the question of educational endowments. I should like to try to make it clear how that appears to me. These educational endowments have been very much the pride of Scotland, as well as our educational system, but I do not think anyone suggests that any of the donors to these educational endowments would have felt pleased to think the endowment was going to be used in relief of rates. You have only to read the Report of the Endowment Commission of 1882 to see how their whole object was to avoid these endowments being used in any sense in relief of rates. What happened in 1918—a rather unfortunate situation, I think. That very ambiguously worded Act has been construed by some as resulting in those endowments being used as a relief to the rates. My right hon. Friend has already indicated that he would be ready to consider the setting up of another endowment committee in order that these existing endowments should be put in their proper and appropriate place, which is outside the fringe of the statutory educational duty. If that were so this Clause we are talking about now, Clause 13 (2) of the 1918 Act, would be neither here nor there.
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But dealing for a moment with the Clause as it stands and the question as to who should get the relief, it is important to bear in mind the distinction between two things—the educational benefit to be got under the endowment and the money that is paid. Its purposes, which are limited in every case to a particular parish or parishes, will continue to be so limited and will be unaffected in that way under this Bill. That is to say if an endowment is for a particular school, or bursaries for particular scholars in a parish, there is nothing in the Bill that will alter that, but the whole question is what is to happen to the money paid in by the trustee to keep the school going, the school being kept going by the educational authorities. The person who is liable for what the endowment does not pay is the education authority—not the particular parish but the county. In almost every case of these endowments, the cost of them has doubled and trebled since the War and since the recognition of the poor salaries that were paid in the earlier days. Who is paying that increased cost? Not the parish only. The county area is paying it. The duty of keeping up that school is on the county, and if it ceases to be useful and it provides another elsewhere to take its place, that cost is on the county, and therefore it is obvious that it may reasonably be maintained that those who are liable to provide the school should get the benefit of any relief from the endowment. That is a matter with which we can deal in Committee.
I do want to make it clear that there is a reasonable contention in favour of the provision in the Bill. One illustration I can give is this. Where, as the result of an endowment of a secondary school, a school for higher education was put down before the 1918 Act, as suiting a particular parish, and after 1918 it became the duty of the county education authority to provide secondary education for the whole county, including that parish, the last place where they would have put the school for serving the parishes of that area would be where that school stood. It was one of the most unsuitable and most uneconomical places, and yet they are bound to carry on that school and to contribute towards a portion of the increased cost above the endowment. They are really losing money; and yet it is suggested that under the 1918 Act the money from that endowment is going to the relief only of the ratepayers in that parish. I only desire to say that there is some good reason for suggesting that the provision in the Bill would be a very fair one.
Two other points were raised by the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire (Sir A. Sprot). He referred to the omission of the Rating of Machinery Clause, and suggested that under the existing law, England was scoring over Scotland. Alt I can say is that the Clause was dropped at the request of the industrial representatives because they wish to retain the existing law in Scotland. The other point suggested that Agricultural subjects, as regards rates, suffered heavily in comparison with England. That is essentially a Committee point. The hon. Member was good enough to submit his figures to me, but I found I was bound to disagree with the interpretation he put upon them. I have dealt with all the main points that should be dealt with at this stage, and I hope the House will now see its way to give us a Second Reading of the Bill, and enable us to thrash out what is the fair basis as between different classes of ratepayers. That must always be the question, and it is a relative question in Committee.
I have no intention of taking up more than a few minutes of the time of the House, because I appreciate the fact that we want to dispose of this Bill and to get on to the other business. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had devoted his time to a defence of that part of the Bill to which we object rather than to an admittedly admirable and clear explanation of its other provisions. We all agree on this side of the House with the improvements that are likely to be effected in rating as a result of this Measure, but we strongly object particularly to the deductions outlined in the First Schedule of the Bill, and I would have liked some explanation of the guiding principle of the Government in framing this Schedule. When we make these deductions we do not abolish the rates. The rates have still to be paid, and the burden has still to Le borne. We merely transfer the burden from, one shoulder to another. When the Government are pursuing a policy like that, there is an obligation to give to those to whom they are appealing for support some explanation of the principles upon which they are proceeding.
I would like to criticise the First Schedule from two points of view. First, from the relation of one subject to another, and, secondly, on the general principle of deduction. How does the Government arrive at the figures? Why are electricity works to have a deduction of 30 per cent, in values, tramway undertakings 27½ per cent., and railways 25 per cent., while water and gas undertakings are to have deductions of only 20 per cent? What is the guiding principle there? The lines and pipes of a water undertaking are underground. No police protection is required for the subject. There is no cost for drainage or lighting or scavenging attached to them, and they do not add a single penny to the burden of the parish. These things have always been recognised in local rating and allowances have always been made. The general principle on which the Secretary for Scotland based these deductions was that industry should be relieved in order to stimulate employment, and generally to benefit the locality. I should have thought that in putting forward that argument the House would have been favoured with some evidence as to how far industry would be relieved by a policy of this kind. Admittedly, the scheme as outlined is a very complicated one, and one which cannot be undertaken even for business reasons, unless there is very strong reason for adopting it.
I would like to know how much the industries that are in the greatest state of depression at the moment benefit from the adoption of a policy like this. Take the coalmining industry. We are frequently told that if we can relieve the industries of local rates trade would flourish to an extent that would be a benefit to all sections of the community. I have heard it used as an argument against social reform that an addition to the local rates would be such an additional burden on local industry that it would increase unemployment, and it consequent poverty; but I have never heard anyone try to prove that. I can only speak from memory, because I have not the figures, but I make bold to say that the total of local rates to a ton of coal produced in Scotland is not more than 5d. Therefore, if my memory is serving me right and we make a deduction of 5 per cent, on the value of the mine, it will only reduce the burden on a ton of coal by one halfpenny per ton. Will anyone seriously argue that by reducing the burden of the mining industry in Scotland to the extent of one halfpenny per ton, we are contributing very substantially to the alleviation of the burdens and troubles from which that industry suffers. Take the case of shipbuilding. The whole of the rates, and not any particular rate, on the average do not add more than 5s. per ton to shipbuilding on the banks of the Clyde. If my figures are right—I think we should have had some official information on this very important point—I can see no justification for opening up this very complicated and possibly injurious and dishonest system in a Bill like this.
I agree that there is room for improvement in the system of rating. I have never been convinced that local Income Tax is practicable. I have given some thought to it as a member of a local authority, but I have never seen a scheme that was workable. In theory it sounds all right, and it is unanswerable in theory that a person who earns £5,000 a year in an office the rent of which may not be more than £100 or £200 a year ought to pay more in local rates than a person who is employing 100 persons in a large factory and perhaps not making more than one-tenth of that particular income. I have not seen a scheme for local Income Tax, however, which was not open to very grave objections. That drives me to this point, that we should not merely have consolidation in collection and consolidation in rates, but that we should adopt very much larger areas for rating than are adopted at the present time. That view has been brought to the front considerably owing to the distress arising from unemployment. It is indefensible that a residential district inhabited by people who in the main draw their incomes from industry, particularly in periods of prosperity, should be exempt
in periods of adversity from bearing the burden of industrial depression. I think that fact alone will drive us in the direction of larger rating areas. I have no objection to any Bill that is a step in that direction. It may be that, while local Income Tax is not a practical proposal, we may more and more be driven towards national collection as a means of raising the bulk of our money for local expenditure. I wish that the Bill had been divided, and that its good Clauses had not had tacked on to them the objectionable features to which I have referred. But, taking the Bill as it is, and as long as it contains this Schedule of deductions, I cannot see my way to support it.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 89.
Division No. 232.] AYES. [6.16 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Harland, A. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Harrison, G. J. C. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hartington, Marquess of Apsley, Lord Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Haslam, Henry C. Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M Atholl, Duchess of Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Atkinson, C. Curzon, Captain Viscount Henn, Sir Sydney H. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Dalkeith, Earl of Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Balniel, Lord Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hills, Major John Walter Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hilton, Cecil Barnston, Major Sir Harry Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Dawson, Sir Philip Holt, Capt. H. P. Berry, Sir George Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hopkins, J. W. W. Betterton, Henry B. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Eden, Captain Anthony Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Blundell, F. N. Edmondson, Major A. J. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Boothby, R. J. G. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Elliot, Captain Walter E. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Brass, Captain W. Ellis. R. G. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Briscoe, Richard George Elveden, Viscount. Hume, Sir G. H. Brittain, Sir Harry Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M.) Hurd, Percy A. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Everard, W. Lindsay Illffe, Sir Edward M. Brown, Maj, D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Fairfax. Captain J. G. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Burman, J. B. Fanshawe, Commander G. D Jephcott, A. R. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Fermoy, Lord Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Caine, Gordon Hall Flelden, E. B. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Campbell, E. T. Ford, Sir P. J. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Foster, Sir Harry S. King, Captain Henry Douglas Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Ganzoni, Sir John Lamb, J. Q. Chapman, Sir S. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Christie, J. A. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Clarry, Reginald George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Loder, J. de V. Clayton, G. C. Gretton, Colonel John Looker, Herbert William Cobb, Sir Cyril Grotrian, H. Brent Luce. Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lumley, L. R. Cooper, A. Duff Hacking, Captain Douglas H. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Cope, Major William Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Couper, J. B. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hanbury, C. MacIntyre, Ian Macmillan, Captain H. Rees, Sir Beddoe Stuart, Crichton- Lord C. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Reid, D. D. (County Down) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Remnant, Sir James Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Malone, Major P. B. Rentoul, G. S. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Margesson, Captain D. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Templeton, W. P. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Rice, Sir Frederick Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Ropner, Major L. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Meller, R. J. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Meyer, Sir Frank Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Waddington, R. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Salmon, Major I. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sandeman, A. Stewart Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Sanderson, Sir Frank Wells, S. R. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. McI.(Renfrew, W) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple Nelson, Sir Frank Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Skelton, A. N. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Nicholson, Col.Rt.Hon.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Nuttall, Ellis Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Oakley, T. Smithers, Waldron Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Perkins, Colonel E. K. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wise, Sir Fredric Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Sprot, Sir Alexander Wolmer, Viscount Pilcher, G. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.) Womersley, W. J. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Preston, William Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Price, Major C. W. M. Steel, Major Samuel Strang TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Raine, W. Storry-Deans, R. Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C. Thomson. Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
NOES. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Slesser, Sir Henry H. Attlee, Clement Richard Hayes, John Henry Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Barnes, A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Snell, Harry Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Stamford, T. W. Bowerman, Rt Hon. Charles W. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Sutton, J. E. Compton, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Connolly, M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kelly, W. T. Thurtle, E. Day, Colonel Harry Kennedy, T. Tinker, John Joseph Dennison, R. Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Dunnico, H. Lansbury, George Viant, S. P. Gardner, J. P. Lawrence, Susan Wallhead, Richard C. Gibbins, Joseph Livingstone, A. M. Warne, G. H. Gillett, George M. Lowth, T. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Gosling, Harry Lunn, William Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) MacNeill-Weir, L. Welsh, J. C. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent) March, S. Westwood, J. Greenall, T. Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Palin, John Henry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Guest, L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Potts, John S. Windsor, Walter Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scrymgeour, E. Hardle, George D. Sexton, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Charles Edwards. Hastings, Sir Patrick Sitch, Charles H.
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read.
I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
I should like to say one or two words with regard to the first Amendment—the only Amendment with which my Department is concerned. These Amendments, including the first one, that is to say the Amendments down to line 19, on page 7, are purely drafting. The others, all of them up to that point—
On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the right hon. Gentleman is in Order in discussing various points in connection with these Amendments until we have decided whether we will consider them now? He is dealing with the substance of these Amendments, although we have not decided yet whether we shall proceed to consider them.
The Minister is certainly in Order. It is the usual practice, in moving that Lords Amendments be now considered, to give an explanation of the Amendments, which are very often in a detached form, and not easily understood.
The Amendments must be read all together because they form part of a whole and were inserted in another place in order to carry out the promises I gave while the Bill was in Committee in this House. The effect of the Amendments to Clause 4 of the Bill is simply to alter the priority of the claims to be made on the unclaimed stamp balances. As the Bill stands, the first claim on that part of the sums in the Stamp Balances Fund, which represents interest, goes to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
On a point of Order. I want to raise the question whether the Amendments which have been inserted in another place do not come within the category of a Money Bill. The question to which the right hon. Gentleman is now referring deals exclusively with sums in the unclaimed stamp balances, and I desire to raise the question whether it is a breach of privilege?
The first six Amendments form one matter, and are undoubtedly privilege Amendments. When the first of them comes under consideration, I shall have to inform the House of that.
That means that I shall then be entitled to raise the point I am now raising.
Yes.
I do not imagine that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, however, takes any exception to the Amendments, because when we were in Committee he advised an hon. Member of the Liberal party—I do not see the Liberal party in its place this afternoon—not to look a gift horse in the mouth and to accept the suggestion which was made. I am not anticipating that he is going to raise any difficulty now. I have said all I want to say by way of explanation. The Amendments must be taken altogether, and they carry out the promise I gave on the Committee stage.
I am sorry to have to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman but I do so for sufficiently good reasons. Like him, I regret the absence of hon. Members of the Liberal party, and I hope we may all benefit as a result of the deliberations in which they are engaged. It is quite true that on the merits of the Amendment, not only could I not take any exception to it, but, on the contrary, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember, I spoke in favour of the principle. He will also remember, however, that during the very lengthy proceedings on the Committee stage of the Bill, we on this side of the House moved many Amendments. In fact, on one occasion I moved an Amendment which was down in the name of the Home Secretary, but the Government deliberately did their best to prevent a Report stage of the Bill and succeeded, with the curious result that we had Ministers from that Box intimating clearly in advance what they believed would be done in another place. Indeed they went so far as to say definitely what would be done in another place. We took the view that, so far as another place is concerned, we could not believe that promises have been given in advance.
The Government however, decided that they would not allow a comma to be altered so as to avoid a Report stage, with the result that Amendments some of which were urged from this side but the justification for which was admitted on all sides, were not dealt with here and arrangements were then made that they should be inserted when the Bill went to another place. I cannot anticipate your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on the first Amendment, but I wish to intimate that we shall oppose the alteration, not on the merits, as I have already said, but because of the extraordinary procedure adopted by the Government in deliberately preventing the House of Commons having a Report stage and then arranging that Amendments should be inserted in another place. I do not know what kind of precedent it establishes. I would like to know what the right hon. Gentleman would have said if, in the brief period during which we were on those benches opposite, we had given any indication at all that the other place was going to do something which we suggested. Fortunately we never made such a promise. For the reasons I have stated, we certainly shall divide on the Amendment.
I submit that the House ought not to proceed with the Consideration of the Lords Amendments. Various circumstances have emerged since this Bill was last before the House. Changes have been made in it in another place, and some of those changes are such as might have been made in this House. It is quite obvious that the Government are acting unconstitutionally in proceeding with this Measure and yet this Government, beyond all other Governments we ever had, makes a parade of its devotion to the British Constitution. I am not sure that many Members of the Government know much about the Constitution. If what was written in the "British Gazette" is to be taken as typical of their ideas on the Constitution, one must feel doubtful as to the extent of their knowledge. It is a principle of the British Constitution that the Government should carry out the will of the people in this country, and I think no Member on the other side will have the audacity to say that it is the will of the people that this Measure should be placed on the Statute Book.
We have only to take the evidences which are to be found in the constituencies. Flaming posters have been put up at various Unionist headquarters throughout the country trying to assure the public that this Bill is something different from what it really is. A perversion of what the Bill really is has been set out on those posters and it is quite evident that the people at the Unionist headquarters are fully aware that it is the will of the people that this Measure should not be placed on the Statute Book. There is another indication. A great many people in this country were said to have taken part in a conspiracy against the community. They were accused of having indulged in an illegal conspiracy. The general strike took place and the Government assured us that it was
against the will of the people, and yet when the Government went to the constituency of Hammersmith and put forward a candidate in support of the policy enshrined in this Bill, they failed. Although the Labour candidate belonged to those who had—on the premises of the Government but not on the premises of any sensible person—been guilty of this tremendous breach of the British Constitution in the general strike, the electors of that division plainly showed what was the will of the people of this country. They were so absolutely against the policy of this Bill that the Government candidate was defeated ignominiously. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Buckrose?"] The general strike had not taken place—
I do not see that the subject under discussion has anything to do with Buckrose or with Hammersmith.
I very respectfully bow to your ruling, Sir, but when hon. Members ask me a question, I am always anxious to answer them. The facts of the case are so plainly against the Government in connection with this Measure that I thought we would never see it before us again. I thought the Government would not have the face to ask the House to proceed any further with it. I did not dream that people could be so stout in asserting of the sanctity of the Constitution one day, and be so ready to go against a fundamental constitutional principle another day. Yet here we are again confronted with this ill-fated Measure. I think hon. Members who support the Government ought to take pity on the Government and tell them to respect the views of the people. I think the Government ought not to proceed any further with a Measure which is simply a means of robbing the poor to make things easier for the rich. On those grounds and many others with which I do not propose to delay the House, I desire to oppose the Motion that we proceed to the consideration of these Amendments.
Question put, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
The House divided: Ayes, 198; Noes, 82.
Division No. 233.] AYES. [6.42 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Apsley, Lord Atkinson, C. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Balniel, Lord Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Atholl, Duchess of Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Foster, Sir Harry S. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Berry, Sir George Ganzonl, Sir John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Betterton, Henry B. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Nicholson, Col.Rt.Hon.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nuttall, Ellis Blundell, F. N. Goff, Sir Park Oakley, T. Boothby, R. J. G. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Brass, Captain W. Gretton, Colonel John Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Briscoe, Richard George Grotrian, H. Brent Pilcher, G. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Preston, William Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Price, Major C. W. M. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harland, A. Raine, W. Burman, J. B. Harrison, G. J. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hartington, Marquess of Rentoul, G. S. Caine, Gordon Hall Haslam, Henry C. Rice, Sir Frederick Campbell, E. T. Hawke, John Anthony Ropner, Major L. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Salmon, Major I. Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.SirJ.A.(Birm., W.) Herbert. S.(York. N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hills, Major John Waller Sandeman, A. Stewart Chapman, Sir S. Hilton, Cecil Sanders, Sir Robert A. Christie, J. A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sanderson, Sir Frank Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Clarry, Reginald George Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. McI. (Renfrew, W) Clayton, G. C. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Mossley) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Cobb, Sir Cyril Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Skelton, A. N. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Cooper, A. Duff Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Cope, Major William Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Smithers, Waldron Couper, J. B. Hume, Sir G. H. Sprot, Sir Alexander Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hurd, Percy A. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Jephcott, A. R. Storry-Deans, R. Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Crookshank. Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Cunliffe, Sir Herbert King, Captain Henry Douglas Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Curzon, Captain viscount Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) Dalkeith, Earl of Lamb, J. Q. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Waddington, R. Davies, Dr. Vernon Loder, J. de V. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Looker, Herbert William Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Watts, Dr. T. Dawson, Sir Philip Lumley. L. R. Wells, S. R. Dean, Arthur Wellesley MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Eden, Captain Anthony McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Edmondson, Major A. J. MacIntyre, Ian Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Elliot, Captain Walter E. Macmillan, Captain H. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Ellis, R. G. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Macquisten, F. A. Wise, Sir Fredric Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wolmer, Viscount Everard, W. Lindsay Malone, Major P. B. Womersley, W. J. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Margesson, Capt. D. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Falle, Sir Bertram G Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Fermoy, Lord Meller, R. J. Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. Fielden, E. B. Meyer, Sir Frank Ford, Sir P. J.
NOES. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Barnes, A. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Kelly, W. T. Batey, Joseph Grundy, T. W. Kennedy, T. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Kirkwood, D. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Lansbury, George Cape, Thomas Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lawrence, Susan Compton, Joseph Hardle, George D. Lowth, T. Connolly, M. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Lunn, William Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hayday, Arthur Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Day, Colonel Harry Hayes, John Henry March, S. Dunnico, H. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Montague, Frederick Gardner, J. P. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Gibbins, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Murnin, H. Gillett, George M. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Naylor, T. E. Gosling, Harry Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Palin, John Henry Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Paling, W. Greenall, T. John, William (Rhondda, West) Ponsonby, Arthur Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Potts, John S. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Westwood, J. Scrymgeour, E. Sutton, J. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Sexton, James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sitch, Charles H. Thurtle, E. Windsor, Walter Slesser, Sir Henry H. Tinker, John Joseph Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Viant, S. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Snell, Harry Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles Edwards Stamford, T. W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Stephen, Campbell Welsh, J. C.
Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
CLAUSE 47.—(Amendment of Section 68 of principal Act.)
Lords Amendment:
In page 5, lines 3 to 13, leave out Subsection (1).
I must inform the House that this Amendment and the next five Amendments, which form part of the one proposition, are Privilege Amendments, because they alter the allocation of public funds. Should the House think fit to accept the Amendments, it would be my duty to cause a Special Entry to be put in the Journal for the future protection of our privilege.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—[ Mr. N. Chamberlain. ]
This confirms what we said so frequently during the Committee stage of this Bill, that this situation would be brought about, whatever the merits of the case may be, by the Government's refusal to recognise the rights of the House of Commons. Parliamentary procedure provides various stages, one of them being the Report stage of any Measure, which gives another opportunity for Parliament to review the legislation before it. We urged all through that on the Report stage certain changes should be made in this Bill, and although, I repeat, on many of the questions that we submitted the Government were not unsympathetic, in order to prevent a Report stage they deliberately adopted this procedure, with this result, arranging not only for another place to insert Amendments that ought to have been inserted here, but actually arranging for another place to
break the Parliament Act. Fortunately, the liberties and privileges and rights of the House of Commons are in safe keeping with Mr. Speaker, who has ruled, as we expected and felt sure, when I raised the original point of Order, he would rule, and the Government are now going to the further extraordinary stage of asking that this privilege should be waived. I repeat that, apart from the merits of the Amendment in any way, on the broad general ground of principle and of preserving the rights of this House, of which Members opposite ought to be as jealous as are Members on this side, we shall certainly oppose this Motion, and carry our opposition to the Division Lobby.
I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, whether any action can be taken—since this is a breach of the Constitution on the part of the Front Bench opposite, who during the past month were glorying in their assumed role of upholders of the Constitution— under the Emergency Regulations which were passed yesterday to take action against those responsible for this procedure, or whether it is possible for any other method to be adopted to bring to book those individuals who are now breaking the very Constitution that they invoked the Emergency Powers Act to maintain, and to put them in their proper place.
I can only suggest to the hon. Member that he should have a consultation with the hon. and learned Gentleman whom I see on the Opposition Front Bench.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House divided: Ayes, 195; Noes, 83.
Division No. 234.] AYES. [6.55 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Apsley, Lord Atholl, Duchess of Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Atkinson, C. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fermoy, Lord Meller, R. J. Balniel, Lord Fielden, E. B. Meyer, Sir Frank Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Ford, Sir P. J. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Foster, Sir Harry S. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Berry, Sir George Ganzoni, Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Betterton, Henry B. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Nuttall, Ellis Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Oakley, T. Blundell, F. N. Goff, Sir Park Perkins, Colonel E. K. Boothby, R. J. G. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Brass, Captain W. Gretton, Colonel John Pilcher, G Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Grotrian, H. Brent Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Briscoe, Richard George Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Preston, William Brittain, Sir Harry Gunston, Captain D. W. Price, Major C. W. M. Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Raine, W. Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, D. D. (County Down) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Harland, A. Rentoul, G. S. Burman, J. B. Harrison, G. J. C. Rice, Sir Frederick Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hartington, Marquess of Ropner, Major L. Caine, Gordon Hall Haslam, Henry C. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Campbell, E. T. Hawke, John Anthony Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Cassels, J. D. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Salmon, Major I. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Sandeman, A. Stewart Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) Hills, Major John Waller Sanderson, Sir Frank Chapman, Sir S Hilton, Cecil Sandon, Lord Christie, J. A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Clarry, Reginald George Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Skelton, A. N. Clayton, G. C. Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Cobb, Sir Cyril Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hume, Sir G. H. Smithers, Waldron Cooper, A. Duff Hurd, Percy A. Sprot, Sir Alexander Cope, Major William Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Couper, J. B. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Jephcott, A. R. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) King, Captain Henry Douglas Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Curzon, Captain Viscount Lamb, J. Q Waddington, R. Dalkeith, Earl of Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Watts. Dr. T. Davies, Dr. Vernon Looker, Herbert William Wells, S. R. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lumley. L. R. White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple Dawson, Sir Philip MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Dean, Arthur Wellesley McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Eden, Captain Anthony MacIntyre, Ian Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Edmondson, Major A. J. Macmillan, Captain H. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Elliot, Captain Walter E. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Wise, Sir Fredric Ellis, R. G. Macquisten, F. A. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Malone, Major P. B. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Everard, W. Lindsay Margesson, Capt. D. Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Falle, Sir Bertram G.
NOES. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Greenall, T. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Barnes, A. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Kelly, W. T. Batey, Joseph Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Kennedy, T. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Kirkwood, D. Bromley, J. Grundy, T. W. Lansbury, George Buchanan, G. Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Lawrence, Susan Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Lowth, T. Cape, Thomas Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Lunn, William Compton, Joseph Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Connolly, M. Hayday, Arthur March, S. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hayes, John Henry Montague, Frederick Day, Colonel Harry Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Dunnico, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murnin, H. Gardner, J. P. Hirst, G. H. Naylor, T. E. Gibbins, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Palin, John Henry Gillett. George M. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Paling, W. Gosling, Harry Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ponsonby, Arthur Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) John, William (Rhondda, West) Potts, John S. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stephen, Campbell Welsh, J. C. Scrymgeour, E. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Westwood, J. Sexton, James Sutton, J. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sitch, Charles H. Thurtle, E. Windsor, Walter Slesser, Sir Henry H. Tinker, John Joseph Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Viant, S. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Snell, Harry Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles Edwards. Stamford, T. W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.
Law of Property (Amendment) Bill [Lords.]
As amended ( in the Standing Committee, ) considered.
I do not propose to move the New Clause—[ Amendments respecting lands in the three Hidings of Yorkshire ]—which stands in my name. An Amendment to the Schedule of the Bill covers the same point. Therefore I shall not trouble the House with a discussion of my Clause.
An Amendment down in my name deals with the same question raised by that of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Major Hills), and it is perhaps convenient that I should remain on my feet for a moment or two till the learned Solicitor-General will be in a position to explain to the House the discussions which have taken place and, I hope, may be able to indicate to us that he is able to meet the views of the Yorkshire Members in a way satisfactory to all concerned.
We had better have a Question before the House.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Registration of Deeds, Yorkshire.)
(1) On and after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, not withstanding anything contained in the Law of Property Act, 1925, the Land Registration Act, 1925, or the Land Charges Act, 1925, the registration of any instrument or assurance, or of a land charge (other than a local land charge) affecting land in any of the three Ridings of York shire shall be effected at the appropriate Yorkshire Registry of Deeds and not elsewhere.
For the purpose of this Sub-section "land charge" includes any matter capable of registration under Parts I, III, IV, and V of the said Land Charges Act, 1925.
(2) The county councils of the three Ridings of Yorkshire may jointly make such rules as may be required for carrying into effect the provisions of this Section, subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor, and when so approved such rules shall be deemed to be rules under the Land Charges Act, 1925: By such rules all necessary provision may be made for transferring to the registries of the three Ridings respectively all applications or entries on the registers kept at the Land Registry pursuant to the said Act (or copies of such applications or entries) during the period commencing on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, and expiring on the thirty-first day of December of that year so far as the same relate to lands in the said respective Ridings.
(3) Nothing in this Section shall affect the operation of Part XI (relating to "compulsory registration") of the Land Registration Act, 1925.—[ Mr. A. V. Alexander. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I was unaware that the proceedings were going on with such celerity. With reference to this Amendment, I am not sure which will be the most convenient method, whether I should make my observations on a manuscript Amendment, of which I gave you, Sir, a copy, which comes at a later stage, and which is an Amendment that I think satisfies the parties interested in the Amendment which has been moved. It is an Amendment which will come later on in the Bill, and I think it would be probably more convenient if my hon. Friend will withdraw this Amendment, and I shall make my observations and explain the matter to the House when the Amendment is reached.
I should point out that if the hon. Member withdraws here, we cannot have another new Clause proposed. I understand that the proposed alternative is an Amendment to one of the subsequent Clauses.
To the Schedule.
The Bill contains a Schedule which includes minor Amendments. The Amendment which proposes to take the place of the Amendment which has been moved is included among the minor Amendments and will therefore come in the Schedule.
I only intended to withdraw, by permission of the House, the first Clause which stands in my name, and to move the other two Clauses.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Law of Property Act, 1925.)
At the end of Sub-section 7 (2) of the Fifteenth Schedule the Law of Property Act, 1925, there shall be inserted the words "this Sub-section shall not apply to an option to purchase by way of underlease contained in a lease or underlease."—[ Mr. Alexander. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The reason for putting the Amendment on the Paper is that some counties, like Lancashire, have experienced some confusion in the case of persons who desire an option over subsequent purchase or extension of leases on a shorter lease. I had a case put to me recently where a solicitor desired to insert in a lease an option to purchase, but as the purchase deeds in that locality are always prepared by underlease, the matter would amount to a contract of more than 60 years, and that is illegal under the Law of Property Act. It is desired to obtain this small amendment in the law, and provide for a case of that kind. If the Government are not able to meet us in the matter, I hope they will indicate in the discussion of this Amendment what is the best course for solicitors to follow.
This Amendment has only been placed on the Order Paper within the last 24 hours, but I understand the object of the hon. Gentleman is to deal with the case which arises when the lessor has a lease for a term of say 999 years and the tenant to whom he has given the underlease desires to purchase the reversion. I understand that in the case to which he refers, there is a local practice of selling the reversion by way of granting an underlease, that is, a lease for the rest of the 999 years, less one day. If it is suggested that this Amendment is necessary in order to allow that practice to continue, I am afraid I must object to the Amendment, because it will run counter to what has already been done by Section 7, Sub-section (2) of the Act of 1922. That Sub-section makes void a contract to renew a lease for a term exceeding 60 years. If the Amendment were accepted, the door would be open to the same evils intended to be excluded by the law enacted at that time. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is not necessary to have this Amendment to get over any difficulty which arises under the local custom. It will only be necessary to carry out the purchase of a local lease by a slightly different method, which will not have the misfortune of reopening the door which was deliberately closed by the Act of 1922.
In view of the reply of the Solicitor-General, I think it would be unwise to press the Amendment at this stage. If any further question arises, and any difficulty in practice, I think it might be left to the more general Amendments which will be necessary when the Law of Property Act has had longer working. I beg to withdraw the Clause.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
CLAUSE 2.—(Amendment of 15 Geo. 5, c. 20, s. 140, in its application to agricultural holdings.)
I beg to move, in page 2, line 31, to leave out from the word "and" to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words
"and such acceptance shall have effect as if it were the acceptance of a notice to quit to which paragraph ( d ) Sub-section (7) of Section 12 of the said Act applies."
This is really a drafting Amendment. Clause 2 of the Bill, which contains an Amendment of the Law of Property Act, 1925, is designed to secure to certain tenants under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, compensation in cases which arise when a tenant of an agricultural holding receives notice to quit in respect of part of his land, for the position may then arise, when he is cultivating the rest of the holding, that he may desire to give a counter-notice to terminate the whole of his tenancy. Under these circumstances there was a question as to his right to compensation for disturbance and the amendment made by Clause 2 is designed to secure compensation. A doubt has arisen as to whether the last three lines of the Clause, which were added in another place, effect the purpose desired. These words are in substitution for those on the Order Paper, which are merely altered by the omission of some words in the amendment at the end of the Clause.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Amendment of 15 Geo. 5, c. 18, s. 13.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 39, to leave out from the word "inserted", to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words
I further told the Committee respectfully that I thought the Amendment would not be adequate to meet the difficulty, or relieve the doubt raised. In consequence, I think, of some misapprehension as to the authorship of the particular amendment moved by my hon. and gallant Friend, the Amendment was carried by 11 votes to 10. He was able to refer to the opinion of an eminent firm of solicitors and an equally eminent counsel who he suggested had drafted the Amendment. We accept the decision of the Committee as meaning that reasonable doubt did exist, or does exist, that it was desirable to remove. I still, however, hold the opinion that the Amendment inserted on the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend was not suitable for the purpose, and I propose to take out the words put in upstairs and to substitute other and more appropriate words which appear on the Order paper. My hon. and gallant Friend seems to be satisfied with the offer which has been made, because I notice he has put on the Paper an Amendment in identical terms to that which I am now moving. The purpose of the Amendment is to make it quite clear that nothing in the Clause shall prevent or shall affect the creation of the charge and that nothing shall interfere with the charge. The Amendment on the Paper, if accepted by the House, redrafts the words inserted in Committee and alters the form of the Clause. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend agrees, and I hope the House will accept the Amendment.
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said I have assented to this change, the substitution of the words which have just been moved by my right hon. Friend for those carried in Committee on my Motion. But I must in justice, I think, to myself say that although I have assented to the alteration of the words I do so not because I assent to the argument of the learned Solicitor-General, but on the ground that half a loaf is better than no loaf. In Committee I succeeded in convincing the majority of hon. Members and they supported the Amendment which I had put on the Paper, and which now appears as a Clause in this Bill. But in face of the opposition of the Government, and the absence of other hon. Members in other parts of the building who are devoting themselves to other work I do not flatter myself I could carry it again. The wording that has been proposed by the Solicitor-General meets a great part, a most important part, though not the whole, of the case which I brought before the Committee. The part which was left, as I think, unsatisfied, is not of sufficient importance to risk the larger matter, and I shall not take up the time of the House in arguing it. There is no doubt that the words now proposed will remove the doubt so far as the orders of the Ministry of Agriculture in respect to these charges under the Settled Land Act and the Agricultural Improvements Act are concerned. I think the rest must be allowed to go. I regret that the learned Solicitor-General should feel unable to retain the Clause. I still prefer my own words.
The Labour party is always concerned for justice in this matter of landed property. We supported the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his Motion upstairs and, as the Solicitor-General has quite plainly said, between us we succeeded in defeating the Government by one vote. I can quite appreciate the feeling which the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite has, though he can congratulate himself upon his victory upstairs. So far as I can see, the words of the Solicitor-General substantially meet the case. At the same time, I think it only fair to say that the learned Solicitor-General has very generously recognised that the Government were defeated upstairs. The moral to be drawn from this is that, I think, it is for all Members of this House not to be coerced by the Government, by the Whips, or by anybody else. But to persist in their views if they believe them to be right.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 7.—(Minor Amendments.)
I beg to move in page 5, line 13, after the word "purchaser," to insert the words "or any registration effected."
In moving this manuscript Amendment which is part of the larger proposal that I am moving to meet the wishes of some hon. Members from Yorkshire I may say that they are very much concerned about the effect on the Yorkshire registries of the legislaion contained in the Land Charges Act 1925. They are anxious to maintain the prestige of the registries and to increase their usefulness, and they also base their case to-day on the economy in the matter of registration which is of importance to purchasers of small property. I share their anxiety for economy because we on this side of the House believe that small people should be encouraged to become owners. The object of the Amendment upstairs, which on this occasion was defeated by 20 votes to three, was to abolish the necessity for a dual search of the registers in land charges. I will not trouble hon. Members with the technicalities of land charges, but when a piece of land is sold certain burdens may attach to the land; before a person buys it, he wants to know what does attach to it under the existing law, and consequently he has to make a search at the appropriate registries. The registry may be that in London, or the registry in one of the Hidings in the County of Yorkshire. The Members for Yorkshire put forward an Amendment which was intended to secure that in future a search in Yorkshire only should be necessary. I think I satisfied the Committee that the Amendment in the form submitted would not secure that much-desired result and was objectionable on other grounds, and, therefore, the Committee, as I think rightly, rejected it. The Yorkshire Members concerned, and many representatives of law societies and building societies in that county have, however, with courtesy and pertinacity, represented to me several advantages which might be obtained with an Amendment in a rather different form, and with the assent of those who are my advisers, I am prepared to move such an Amendment. Hon. Members interested have seen it, and it meets their views. I think I can explain it in more or less untechnical language.
By the Land Charges Act, 1925, a privilege, or what I think was a privilege, was conceded to the Yorkshire registries. In addition to the registration of what we call legal estates the Yorkshire registries were made the registries, according to the volition of the person making the entry, of certain land charges. The charges were four in number. I suppose if I were to read them they would not convey very much to anybody except lawyers, and, therefore, I content myself with describing them as four land charges. But the registration in Yorkshire was only permissive. They might be registered in Yorkshire or London. By the Clause which I propose to move the registration of those four land charges, and of any other land charge created by a document which shows on the face of it that it is Yorkshire land that is concerned, will have to be made and can only be made in Yorkshire. That will secure one search for anybody who is interested in land in Yorkshire, subject to the necessity of a search elsewhere if anybody is thinking of a bankruptcy petition, or Inland Revenue charge or a Receiving Order and similar charges. I am told that the Yorkshire solicitors as a rule know the owners of the land with which they are dealing, and are quite prepared to run the risk of not searching for those matters, and as a rule do not search for them. On that Assurance I am quite able to see the desirability of registering only in Yorkshire those particular land charges which are created by a document which shows on the face of it that they do affect Yorkshire land. Recognising the reasonableness of the representations made to me, I am going later to move an Amendment which I will now read:
On behalf of the Yorkshire Members on this side of the House I would like to say that we appreciate the consideration of the Solicitor General, and I gather from our Yorkshire colleagues on the other side that they agree to this, and we are glad to accept it.
I welcome the Amendment which the Solicitor-General is to move. All systems of registration ought to be based upon simplicity, convenience and cheapness, and it would be much simpler, more convenient and cheaper that any purchaser of land should find in one registry in the Riding itself what charges there are affecting the land than that he should be compelled to go to the expense of a search in London. I heartily support the Clause and thank the Solicitor-General for it.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 13, leave out the word "commencement", and insert instead thereof the word "passing."—[ The Solicitor-General. ]
Schedule
I beg to move, in page 6, line 11, at the end, to insert the words dents. In the case of the Manor of Clitheroe the lords of the manor have been accustomed to receive payments in connection with copyhold land amounting, certainly, to not more than a few hundred pounds a year. In the Act was a scale of compensation payable to landlords for the extinction of those incidents. The scale of compensation in certain cases was 20 per cent, of the annual value of the land. If that scale were to be applied strictly, the lord of the Manor of Clitheroe would receive, it is computed, about £175,000 for the extinction of manorial incidents which brought him in an income of something like £100 or £200 a year. Hon. Members interested in the Manor of Clitheroe thought this was excessive, and an Amendment was thereupon moved to make it plain that the Manor of Clitheroe came within a certain proviso in the Schedule to the Act which provided that no compensation should be paid in certain cases unless the Minister of Agriculture otherwise decided. The question arose as to whether the Manor of Clitheroe was within that proviso or was not within it. If it was in that proviso, nothing could be paid unless the Minister of Agriculture ordered it; but if it was not within the proviso the lord of the manor would be entitled to receive £175,000 for the extinction of charges worth to him £100 or £200 a year. When the Amendment was moved, my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General said he could not accept it. It was moved at a late stage, and he was anxious to get the Bill through in order to proceed with the consolidation of these statutes, but he gave an assurance, which I need not trouble to recite to the House, that if any real fear of this payment being exacted arose, he would move, or give an opportunity for moving, an appropriate Amendment.
What has happened is this. The lord of the Manor of Clitheroe has thought right to say that he thinks the Manor of Clitheroe is not within that proviso, in other words, that he is entitled to his £175,000, but he has also said he would bargain with the tenants on the basis of 10 per cent., that is to say, take somewhere about £80,000 or £90,000, and if they are not prepared to discuss the matter with him on that basis he is prepared to go to the House of Lords in order to ascertain whether it is within the proviso- or not. I would tell the House that if he does go to the House of Lords and obtain a decision, precisely the same position will arise as now exists, because if he is within the proviso he will get no compensation unless the Minister orders it. If the decision of the House of Lords is against the lord of the manor he may go to the Minister of Agriculture and say, "Give me fair compensation," which will be based upon the £100 or £200 which he receives. If the decision is in his favour, the copyholders or tenants may go to the Minister of Agriculture, because there is a Clause which says that where there is any great hardship in the amount of compensation the Minister of Agriculture may reduce it. But the lord of the manor will not go to the Minister at present, because he wants to use, as he said in a letter, the threat of a lawsuit to extract at least 10 per cent, of the annual value. On the other hand, the copyholders cannot go to the Minister of Agriculture, because the Minister will say he is advised, as he is advised, by all competent draughtsmen—unanimously, I believe—and by all competent equity lawyers, that the manor of Clitheroe is within the proviso, and therefore he has no jurisdiction because no case of hardship arises, because they will not have to pay anything.
Therefore, hon. Members will see that the present position is almost precisely what was contemplated when my right hon. Friend gave a promise to introduce an appropriate Amendment in case the fear of the exaction of any such large amount arose. The position to-day is that all those small copyholders are being told they can either have a lawsuit in the House of Lords or pay 10 per cent, of the annual value of their lands. I respectfully think that is not a proceeding which the House will desire to encourage, and if by a suitable Amendment, such as my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General promised should be drawn up, it can be avoided, I hope the necessary action will be taken. For these reasons I move the Amendment.
As a Member who was interested in this question when it came up for consideration on a previous occasion, I wish to express my thanks to the Solicitor-General for the manner in which he has met this point. This question has created great interest in North-East Lancashire where 25,000 copyholders are affected and their claims range from 5s. or 6s. to hundreds of pounds. They have been frightened by the lord of the manor, and they have got together a subscription of £5,000 in order to fight the case in the House of Lords on behalf of the copyholders. Consequently we appreciate very much the action of the Solicitor-General in relieving these 25,000 copyholders of this fear. The position is really difficult and many cases have already been paid by solicitors of £l, £2 or £3 rather than delay completion.
One firm of solicitors has sent me a case which is now under discussion with the lord of the manor, and it is a most extraordinary one. The copyhold rent was 3s. 5d., and the works are of some considerable magnitude and were assessed under Schedule A at £2,071. The lord of the manor to redeem this copyhold rent of 3s. 5d. has claimed a total sum of £589 9s. 2d. After discussing the matter with the solicitors the lord of the manor came down to 10 per cent., and propose now to accept on behalf of the lord of the manor a sum of £298 19s. 8d. The solicitors to the copyholder have suggested a payment of £5 5s. 2d., which is 22 years' purchase of a rent of 3s. 5d and £3 15s. 2d. to the steward, with a compensation of £l 10s. Those are the proposals the copyholders are willing to make and the compensation they are willing to give, and I think those terms are very generous indeed. I think it shows the seriousness of the position as far as North-East Lancashire is concerned when it can be seriously put forward by any firm of solicitors acting on behalf of the lord of the manor that they require £298 19s. 8d. compensation for a copyhold rent of 3s. 9d. I wish to express in the name of these copyholders their gratitude to the Solicitor-General for the action he has taken to-day.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 39, at the end, insert:
"For Sub-section (6) the following Subsection shall be substituted: 'In the case of a general equitable charge, restrictive covenant, equitable easement, estate contract affecting land within any of the three Ridings, and in the case of any other land charge [not being a local land charge] created by a document which shows on the face of it that the charge affects land in any of these Ridings, registration shall be effected in the prescribed manner in the appropriate local Deeds Registry in place of the Deeds Registry.'"—[ The Solicitor-General. ]
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Finance [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.
[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to grant certain Duties of Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by police authorities in carrying out any arrangements made between the Commissioners of Customs and Excise and such authorities in connection with the duties chargeable under the said Act in respect of betting.—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ "Mr. Ronald McNeill. ]
I only wish to say that we do not propose to debate this Resolution on this occasion, but I want to make it perfectly clear that there will be a Debate upon the matter when we come to the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. It must not be assumed because we do not oppose this Resolution now that we do not intend to oppose it.
I quite appreciate what the hon. Member has said.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Nine Minutes before Eight o'Clock.