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Commons Chamber

Volume 196: debated on Monday 7 June 1926

House of Commons

Monday, June 7, 1926

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Chatham and District Water Bill [ Lords, ]

Darwen Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Messrs. Hoare Trustees Bill [ Lords ],

Serle Street and Cook's Court Improvement Bill [ Lords ],

Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Shoreham Harbour Bill,

Wolverhampton Corporation Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Army Canteen Board

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the substance of the Report of the Inquiry Committee into the working of the Army Canteen Board of India; whether the Board makes any specific recommendations as to the future; what is the loss which has been sustained hitherto; whether any judicial proceedings and, if so, what have been taken against any individuals in connection with the disclosures made; and whether, in addition, there has been any disciplinary action taken against any persons connected with the Fund?

I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the Report mentioned in the reply which I have given to the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) and in which I also made a statement as to the which has been sustained. I am not aware of any judicial proceedings or disciplinary action in connection with the Report. Such action would be for the consideration primarily of the Board.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the amount of the Government's guarantee in connection with the Army Canteen Board of India; what is the present amount of the holdings of creditors against the Board; and whether these are in any way legally guaranteed in respect of such indebtedness?

The limit of the guarantee is Rs. 45 lakhs, but I am not sure that the full amount has yet been utilised. A condition of the most recent increase of the guarantee was that the Board's commitments should be brought to within two months' credit from supplies. Under this condition there should be no unduly outstanding liabilities except possibly in connection with a few small contested amounts. Creditors other than the Imperial Bank have no guarantee from Government.

6 and 7.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India (1) what steps the Government of India or the Indian Army Canteen Board propose to take to recover the loss proved to have been sustained by the Indian Army Canteen Board owing to the in-competency of its staff;

(2) what action the Government of India propose to take on the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Indian Army Canteen Board?

With the hon. Member's permission, I will answer these questions together. The Report indicates that the losses sustained are due to a variety of causes. The Government of India are now engaged in considering both the present position and future arrangements for canteen management in the light of the Report and with the assistance of a representative of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes?

It is a trading loss, and I do not know what the hon. Member means when he asks that question. This Board was appointed after the war, as it was considered desirable that there should be in India a system similar or analogous in many respects to that in this country, rather than the old contractor system. In practice, the working of the Board, as at present managed and arranged, has not proved satisfactory. There has been a large trading loss. If it is subsequently discovered, as I have no reason to suppose it will be, that the loss is due to anything improper or illegal, steps can be taken to recover the loss, but it is just a trading loss which might have been made by any other business.

Superior Services (Family Pension Fund)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Indian Government have yet expressed an opinion upon the provisional scheme for the institution of a family pension fund for the European members of the superior Services in India which has been sent them by the Secretary of State; and whether some information can be now afforded the House as to the nature of the scheme?

The views of the Government of India have not yet been received, and for the present, therefore, I am unable to give any information about the scheme.

Specialist and Provincial Offices

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State has yet communicated to the Indian Government his decision on the Indian Government's first two lists of recommendations for the extension of the Lee Concessions to specialist and provincial officers; and whether he can supply, for the information of the House, a list of the officers whose names appear in those lists?

Orders on the recommendations referred to issued by the mails of 22nd and 29th April. Certain recommendations have still to be received and considered by my Noble Friend. The Government of India telegraph that they hope to despatch these by the mails of 17th and 24th June. They will be dealt with as expeditiously as possible, but my Noble Friend would prefer to postpone publication of the names of beneficiaries until a decision has been taken on them and communicated to the Government of India, and a comprehensive list can be given.

Questions

Empire Settlement

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of migrants who were given assisted passages and who proceeded to Australia, Canada and New Zealand, respectively, during the first five months of 1925 and this year?

As the answer is in tabular form, I hope the hon. Member will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I might add that the figures show a substantial increase.

Following is the answer:

The following are the numbers of persons who received assisted passages under the Empire Settlement Act, 1922, and who sailed for Australia, Canada and New Zealand, respectively, during the first five months of 1925 and this year:

1925.

Australia

9,881

Canada

5,505

New Zealand

3,920

1926.

Australia

13,832

Canada

8,493

New Zealand

4,622

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether it has been reported to his Department that among the 2,000 families setted in Western Australia under Sir James Mitchell's group settlement scheme miners are often found to show all the persistence and adaptability needed to ensure sucessful land settlement overseas; and whether, in these circumstances, special encouragement will be provided for miners who wish to emigrate and who are now surplus to the needs of their industry here?

Yes, Sir. I have no reason to doubt that miners would make excellent settlers upon the land overseas; and the suggestion contained in the last part of my hon. Friend's question is not being overlooked.

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he is aware that over 90 per cent. of the British boys between 14 and 17 years of age who have been taken to Canada by the British Immigration and Colonisation Association have proved to be satisfactory farm settlers; and if steps are being taken to provide what the Association finds to be needed, namely, a special farm in Canada on which the boys can be placed on arrival; awaiting their distribution?

The activities of the British Immigration and Colonisation Association in connection with boy migration appear to have begun in 1924. It is, therefore, too early to estimate what percentage of the boys who have been taken out by the association have proved satisfactory farm settlers. I am aware that the association desires to provide a special distributing farm in Canada, but the Oversea Settlement Committee are not prepared to recommend any assistance towards the purchase of such a farm, though, should the association definitely prove its usefulness, they would be willing to make a contribution towards its expenditure on the basis of existing arrangements with other similar organisations.

Amani Institute

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the principal and staff have now been appointed for the Amani Institute?

No, Sir; but the conditions of the directorship have been made known throughout the Empire, and applications are now being received.

Kenya

Constitution

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a new constitution Has been or is being drafted in Kenya providing for the establishment of a permanent non-official majority in the Legislative Council of the colony?

I am not aware that any new constitution has been or is being drafted in Kenya.

Samburu Tribe

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if it is proposed to remove the Samburu tribe in Kenya from the lands now occupied by them?

Early last year the late Governor made a proposal that certain Samburu tribesmen should be required to evacuate a piece of country in Northern Laikipia which they have been permitted to use for grazing purposes. The Governor represented that the area concerned had never properly been Samburu country but had been intended for European settlement after its evacuation by the Masai under the 1911 agreement; that it was only capable of proper economic development as a sheep rather than cattle country under European farmers; and that adequate provision for the Samburu could be made without their encroaching on this land. I considered that the matter needed fuller inquiry, and I requested Sir Edward Grigg to give it his attention on his arrival in Kenya. I am still awaiting his report.

Akamba Reserve

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the deletion from the Akamba Reserve in Kenya of the triangular portion of the Yatta plateau contains the area from which the Akamba with their cattle were recently removed, and to which they were subsequently allowed to return on payment of a grazing fee per beast?

I have not yet received particulars of the agreed boundaries of the Akamba Reserve. The Yatta Plains do not form any part of a native reserve, but the Governor of Kenya has had under consideration the question of the use of a portion of the plains by the Akamba, and I am still awaiting his recommendations.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects to receive this Report?

Questions

Crown Colonies (Railway Materials, Orders)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Crown Agents for the Colonies have, within recent months, placed any orders for railway material required by Colonial Governments with German firms.

China

Anti-British Boycott

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement with regard to the boycott of British trade in the Canton district of China; and what steps are being taken to improve the position?

I am not at present in a position to say more than that the anti-British boycott in Kwangtung Province is still maintained. The Hong Kong Government has neglected no opportunity in its endeavours to restore normal relations, but has been severely handicapped by continual changes in the political situation at Canton which remains obscure.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my question—has anything been done to remove this unfortunate state of affairs?

I shall be glad to do what I can and take every measure I can in that direction

Tariff Conference

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state whether the Tariff Conference in Peking has been abandoned or is still in session?

The Tariff Conference is neither in session nor has it been abandoned. Owing to disturbances in China which prevent the formation of a Government with which the Powers can negotiate, the Tariff Conference is, for the present, in abeyance, but it is hoped to resume negotiations as soon as a Government emerges and the Chinese delegation is reconstituted.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Great Britain has been committed by any decision of the Tariff Conference in Peking, either as regards the granting of customs autonomy to China in 1929, or in any other respect; and whether the agreement by China to abolish leking in 1929 is dependent on customs autonomy being first granted, or whether the grant of tariff autonomy is dependent on leking being first abolished?

On the 19th November last the Tariff Conference adopted a resolution, the terms of which were given to the House on the 16th December last in answer to a question by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby). By accepting this resolution His Majesty's Government are committed to agree to the insertion in the Treaty which the Conference is endeavouring to frame of an Article granting China tariff autonomy on the 1st January, 1929. Up to the present, owing to political disturbances in China, little progress has been made with the drafting of this Treaty. His Majesty's Government are not committed in any other respect.

The agreement of the Powers to grant tariff autonomy on the 1st January, 1929, and the undertaking of the Chinese Government to abolish likin by that date are not, as the Article now stands, expressly inter-dependent, and their relation, which is certainly intimate, cannot be more clearly defined in the absence of the other relevant Articles of the Treaty of which the above-mentioned Article is to form part. His Majesty's Government, for their part, before completing the negotiations leading up to the actual grant of tariff autonomy would undoubtedly expect China on her side at least to initiate measures holding out a fair hope of the ultimate abolition of likin.

British Diplomatic Representation

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any new arrangements are under consideration with regard to British diplomatic representation in Peking?

Questions

WEST AFRICAN COLONIES (Mr. ORMSBY-GORE'S VISIT)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any particulars with regard to the recent visit of the Under-Secretary of State (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) to West Africa; which were the Colonies visited; and when it is expected that a Report of this tour will be available.

The Under-Secretary left England on the 20th January, visited the four West African Colonies, spending six weeks in Nigeria, three weeks in the Gold Coast and Togoland, 10 days in Sierra Leone and three days in the Gambia, and returning to England on the 8th May. He is now engaged on preparing a full report which will be printed and published as soon as it is completed.

Will this Report be an official document, or will it contain many interesting personal details?

Emigrants (Examination on Board Ship)

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any suggestions are being considered for improving the method of examination of emigrants on board ship?

I have been asked to reply. I am not aware of any complaint regarding the present method of examination of emigrants on board ship, but if the hon. Member has any suggestions to make, I will see that they are considered.

Steamship "Tainui."

asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he is aware that the Shaw, Savill and Albion Company's steamer "Tainui," which sailed for New Zealand on the 8th January, 1926, with 428 third-class passengers, is not adapted or suitable for use as an emigrant ship, that the tem- porary four- and six-berth cabins were not adequately ventilated, that the bathing and washing arrangements for both men and women were inadequate, and that no water was available in the cabins four days after leaving England; and, in view of these discomforts and the danger to health experienced by these emigrants, will he, in conjunction with the New Zealand authorities, cause full inquiry to be held in this regard?

I have been asked to reply. The "Tainui" was built under passenger certificate survey in 1908, and has since, with the exception of the war period, been engaged in carrying emigrants to New Zealand. Before leaving this country on her last outward voyage, she was surveyed by the Board of Trade surveyors, when the ventilation, bathing and washing arrangements were found to be in excess of the requirements of the Regulations. The ship has been again inspected by the Board's surveyors, and they report that the officers and stewards of the ship state that they received no complaint of lack of water in the cabins. The stewards add that the supply tanks were filled regularly each morning from a fresh water tap fitted in each section of the passenger accommodation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been constant complaints about this company's steamers?

I can only repeat, that if complaints are made, they are not made to the responsible officers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a complaint was made and signed by 250 passengers of the "Waimana," and forwarded to the Board of Trade?

Sugar-Beet Factories (France)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he will obtain information as to whether, in the restoration of the devastated areas of France, the new sugar-beet factories are constructed to carry out all the sugar refining processes or only to handle beet products up to the stage of raw sugar production when the resultant article is passed on to the large-scale refineries?

I have made some inquiries on this subject, but the information that I have been able to obtain, in the short time available, is inconclusive. If the hon. Member will repeat his question in a week's time I will endeavour to give him the information that he requires.

Board of Agriculture (Staff)

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has now been able to make any material reduction in the staff of his Department; and whether he will give the estimated number of staff and total of their salaries for 1926, and the respective figures for 1924 and 1925?

I am afraid that there is no prospect of any material reduction being made in the staff of the Ministry in the immediate future. The estimated number of staff and total of their salaries for 1926 is 1,449 and £497,382 respectively. For 1925 it was 1,461 and £487,409; and for 1924, 1,367 and £449,612.

Agriculture

Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act, 1924

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many farmers have been proceeded against during the 12 months ending 30th May, 1926, for offences under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act, 1924; in how many cases successfully; and in how many cases were arrears due for periods exceeding six months?

The first prosecution under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act, 1924, was taken on the 10th July, 1925, and up to the 30th May, 1926, 62 employers had been proceeded against. In 47 cases convictions were obtained, 13 cases were dismissed under the Probation of Offenders Act, and two cases were settled out of Court. Sixty of the total of 136 workers involved received arrears of wages in respect of periods exceeding six months.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question, in which I ask in how many cases there were arrears for a period of over six months?

I have answered it. Sixty of them received arrears for periods of over six months.

Is that not an infinitely small proportion, seeing the enormous number of people employed?

In view of the fact that 60 of these cases were cases of arrears being due for a period of over six months, does that not imply that a larger number of inspectors is needed?

I do not think so. Sometimes it is difficult to know in which class a particular employé comes, and a great many infringements took place without any intention.

How much money was involved in these arrears which were held by the employers?

further asked how many inspectors are employed by the Department in connection with the Agricultural Wages Regulation Act, 1924; and how many of these inspectors can speak the Welsh language?

Eleven inspectors are so employed, of whom two can speak the Welsh language.

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give any further information regarding the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the Carlisle area?

Foot-and-mouth disease was first discovered on the 26th of May at a bacon factory in Carlisle in 24 feet taken from 86 pig carcases of mixed Belgian and Dutch origin, imported from Rotterdam on the steamship "Lanrick." On the 31st of May healed lesions of foot-and-mouth disease were found in all four feet of eight foreign carcases, of which one at least was of Dutch origin imported from Rotterdam on the steamship "Bernicia." The factory, its staff and all connected therewith, have been thoroughly disinfected, and there has been no spread of the disease to live animals in the district.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health if he will state the result of his, inquiries into the circumstances in which pig carcases ex steamship "Lanrick" and steamship "Bernica," which were certified at inland bacon factories to be virulently infected with foot-and-mouth disease, were allowed to be landed at Leith and Newcastle respectively; whether he is satisfied that earlier outbreaks of the disease were not due to lax inspection at the ports; and seeing the rampancy of the disease in Europe, what steps he is taking to ensure that imports of animal products which are still permitted under the new Order are brought under expert and effective port inspection?

My right hon. Friend is making inquiries as to the circumstances in which the infected carcases were landed at Newcastle and will communicate further with my hon. Friend. As regards the consignment at Leith, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Secretary for Scotland. My right hon. Friend does not think that any laxity has been shown to exist in the inspection which is made by the sanitary authorities at the ports, but he is advised that inspection at the port would not reveal the presence of the disease in its earlier stages in a dressed carcase. As regards the last part of the Question, I am assured by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture that the risk of infection being conveyed in meat or meat products other that meat which is prohibited by the recent Order is negligible.

If I put a question down for this day week, will the hon. Gentleman be able to give me further information?

While what the Parliamentary Secretary has said may be true, has he anything to say about this diseased meat being used for human consumption?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman quite caught my reply. What I said was there was a general inspection at the port, but my right hon. Friend is advised that inspection at the port would not reveal the presence of the disease in its earlier stages in a dressed carcase.

Yes, but the disease is there, incipient and potential, before it reaches the consumer, and what protection in the hon. Gentleman giving the public against that?

Does not all this prove once more that it is desirable to buy British pigs as well as British goods?

Upon that point, will the Government take steps to see that the land used for deer is used for the rearing of animals?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the fact that Dutch pork is being imported from Holland into England, and being sold in Scotland as Ayrshire bacon?

My hon. Friend ought to know that an Order has been made prohibiting this importation.

Parcels Post System

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the advantage to agriculturists arising from the agricultural parcels post system in operation in South Africa, he will take steps to investigate the matter, with a view to gaining similar facilities for agriculturists, especially for smallholders, in this country?

I have been asked to reply. It is the case that in South Africa certain classes of agricultural and horticultural produce are conveyed through the post at reduced rates. The possibility of adopting a similar scheme in this country was carefully considered in connection with the introduction of the C.O.D. system. The conclusion was reached that, in principle, it would be an infraction of the deci- sion of the Government against permanent subventions to particular industries, for it has to be remembered that even at existing rates the parcel post is unremunerative; in practice also the discrimination between agricultural and non-agricultural produce would present administrative difficulties which were regarded as almost insuperable in this country.

Industrial Situation

Office of Works (Contractors' Employés)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he is aware that about 100 men employed by contractors under the maintenance section of the Office of Works have not been allowed to resume their work since the termination of the strike; if he will state the reason for officials of the Office of Works preventing the return of these men when the contractors, who are the direct employers, authorised the return of all men on the pay roll; and whether instructions will be given that no victimisation is to be practised upon men, many of whom have been in service under the Office of Works for periods ranging from six to 46 years?

The First Commissioner is informed that, of the 1,390 men employed by the London maintenance contractors before the strike approximately, 100 have not been re-engaged. No action has been taken by the officials of the Department to prevent the re-employment of the men by the contractors, who have been free to re-employ as many men as could be given work, and no question of victimisation arises.

Railways (Voluntary Helpers)

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that all the railway companies dismissed their voluntary helpers to a man on Saturday, 22nd May, and that furthermore they have sent out orders that the employment of volunteers will, from now on, only be considered after the whole of the regular employés have been re-instated; and whether, in view of his pledge to the effect that no volunteer who helped his country in her hour of need and who were efficient for their jobs should suffer, he will make representations to the railway authorities to the effect that these men ought to be retained?

I have been asked to reply. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stated to the House on 13th May, the question of the claims of volunteers and men who came out on strike would obviously raise considerable difficulties, and he indicated that, in his view, it was one for employers to settle in consultation with the trade unions concerned. In the negotiations between the railway companies and the trade unions on the subject of re-instatement the question of volunteers was doubtless considered, and I am not in a position to interfere with the settlements reached.

Will not the Prime Minister make representations to the railway companies that they should carry out what was really a promise by the Prime Minister, that volunteers should not suffer? I know that some have suffered, and I can give names to the Prime Minister.

Is it not true that the railway companies and the railway trade unions, when their representatives met to make this agreement, both agreed to wipe out any circumstances in connection with the strike and to endeavour to give effect to the Prime Minister's request—which they have done?

I have already said, with reference to the question put by the right hon. Gentleman, that these matters were considered in the negotiations which took place between the railway companies and the trade unions. As regards the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Westbury (Captain Shaw), if he will given any instances to me which are contrary to any of the pledges given by the Prime Minister I will see that they are carefully gone into, and I will acquaint the Prime Minister with the result of the inquiry. So far as I have been able to ascertain by looking at these pledges carefully and considering them, with what information we have on the subject, I do not think there is any indication at present of any cases which are in contravention of the pledges.

I shall be glad to give the right hon. Gentleman the names of some who were at work and were dismissed on 22nd May, which is contrary to what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas).

Since a request has been made that the Minister should receive the names of any of the volunteer section who were—according to the information of the hon. and gallant Member for Westbury (Captain Shaw)— dismissed, is the Minister also prepared to state the names of any of those who were victimised because of the dispute, in spite of the pledge given by the Prime Minister?

Before the right hon. Gentleman does anything, would it not be better that the railway companies, who at least know their own business and are capable of doing it, should be left to deal with this matter rather than that it should be raised in this way?

On a matter of this kind I think it is better that further questions should be put on the Paper.

Justices of the Peace

asked the Attorney-General if the Lord Chancellor will inquire into the position of those Justices of the Peace who, during the late general strike, broke their contracts by striking without notice to their employers, aided and abetted others in doing likewise, or brought pressure to bear on those who refused to come out on strike, with a view to appropriate action being taken?

The Lord Chancellor is making full inquiry into all cases of the character described in the question which have been brought to his notice; but in cases in which nothing is alleged against the Justice of the Peace except that he broke his contract by taking part in the general strike, the Lord Chancellor does not propose to take any action.

Will the Lord Chancellor take into consideration the names, if I send them to him, in confirmation of what I state here?

As my answer indicates, the Lord Chancellor will look into any cases which are brought to his notice.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider whether in future, if no action is taken against these Justices, they will not be allowed to sit when cases of breach of contract are being tried?

Actions for breach of contract do not generally come before magistrates.

Is it the intention of those who put these questions that no working man should be made a Justice of the Peace at all?

Public Supply Undertakings (EmployéS' Contracts)

asked the Home Secretary what steps his Department takes under Section 4 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875, and Section 31 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, for breach of contract against persons employed in the public supply of gas, water, or electricity; and how the posting up of a notice of these Sections in the works as required by law is ensured?

The matter does not fall within the scope of my right hon. Friend's Department. It is open to any person who is aggrieved to take action if an offence is committed.

Sentence (Alexander Auld, Glenridding)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Alexander Auld, lead miner, of Glenridding, was sentenced to three months' hard labour for advising workers not to enlist as special constables; that the man had no previous convictions; and whether, under the circumstances, he can see his way clear to remit the remaining portion of the sentence although the man pleaded guilty of infringing the Emergency Regulations?

My right hon. Friend is afraid, after careful consideration, that he cannot recommend any interference with the sentence in this case.

Are we to take it that a man who advises other men not to take a certain part in a dispute is liable to be sentenced to three months' imprisonment or to any period that the Justices think fit? Is the right of strikers to picket and advise other men peacefully to strike gone in this country?

Post Office Servants

( for Mr. GERALD HURST) asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Union of Post Office Workers demanded from the Post Office, during the late general strike, a pledge not to employ its servants in the work of loading mails on railways, and issued a paper called the "Post" in favour of revolutionary doctrines; and whether this association of civil servants will continue to be recognised by His Majesty's Government when matters affecting Post Office servants are under negotiation?

The Union of Post Office Workers and other Post Office Staff Associations were informed on the eve of the general strike that Post Office servants would not be required as a condition of service to perform duties previously performed by railway or transport workers, but that this would not prevent the use of Post Office servants for any duty for which they might volunteer. I am glad to say large numbers did so volunteer. A similar assurance had been given on the occasion of previous strikes on the railways or in the transport industry. The unions were told that further developments might necessitate a reconsideration of the assurance. The "Post" is the title of the weekly journal issued by the Union of Post Office Workers, but I am not prepared to express an opinion on the nature of its contents. I am not in a position at the moment to make any statement in reply to the last part of the hon. Member's question.

Is it not a fact that the "Post," like other papers, was not able to be circulated during the strike?

Will the Noble Lord say whether it is not a fact that the members of the Post Office Workers' Union did not work loyally during this time?

Is it not a fact that the National Federation of Postal and Telegraph Clerks have always been careful in adopting modern methods of striking?

National Federation of Postal and, Telegraph Clerks

( for Mr. HURST) asked the Postmaster-General whether, having regard to the services rendered during the general strike by the officials and members of the National Federation of Postal and Telegraph Clerks, and to the constitutional character of their aims and objects, he will officially recognise this federation in dealing with the internal affairs of the Post Office?

I have already had pleasure in recording my appreciation of the valuable services rendered by all grades of the Post Office staff during the general strike, and I should not wish to single out any particular section of the staff in this connection. I am aware of the aims and objects of the National Federation of Postal and Telegraph Clerks, but the granting of official recognition must depend on a number of factors which are now under consideration in connection with a renewed application which the federation have submitted.

Why does the Noble Lord call it a general strike when only 2,000,000 people out of 17,500,000 people were affected?

Perhaps a better description would be to call it "a general fiasco."

Were not the Post Office workers equally included with the other Association in the recognition of their services?

Civil Service Clerical Association

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that by circular, dated 1st May, 1926, and marked Urgent, Important, Circ. No. 61, Gen./1926, the general secretary of the Civil Service Clerical Association directed its branch officers to be governed by the policy of the Trade Union Congress, and forbade its members to undertake any voluntary service during the general strike; and whether this association of civil servants will continue to be recognised by His Majesty's Government when matters affecting the general body of civil servants are under negotiation?

My right hon. Friend is aware of the terms of the circular referred to. The action taken by the representatives of certain Civil Service Associations in connection with the general strike, to which my hon. and learned Friend has referred in this and in previous questions, is now under consideration by His Majesty's Government, and I am not at present in a position to say what steps will be taken in the matter.

Questions

Ottoman Loan and Cyprus Tribute

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received any explanation as to why France has not paid her share to the 1855 guaranteed Ottoman 4 per cent. loan and the Cyprus Tribute?

The matter is now under discussion between His Majesty's Government and the French Government.

Will the hon. Gentleman remember that there are certain management expenses in connection with this?

Is it not a fact that France has not paid her share since the island was taken over by Great Britain?

Negotiations are now proceeding, and all these questions are being taken into consideration.

Mosul Treaty

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement as to the terms of settlement of the Mosul boundary dispute?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement as to the progress of the negotiations with the Turkish Government relative to the boundary between Iraq and Turkey?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state if any agreement, and, if so, what, has been reached with Turkey on.the subject of Mosul?

I will, if I may, answer these questions together. I am happy to be able to state that the negotiations with the Turkish Government have been brought to a successful conclusion, and a Treaty was signed on the 5th June.

As certain minor alterations were made at the very last moment, I am not yet in a position to give the exact text, but the Treaty will be laid before Parliament at the earliest possible date.

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that the success of the Treaty is largely due to the spirit of statesmanship and conciliation displayed throughout the negotiations by the representatives of both countries who will have contributed very effectively towards the renewal of the traditional friendship of their two nations.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is anything in the Treaty to safeguard the lives and property of the Christian minorities on both sides of the border, and whether the Government position still is that oil has nothing to do with the matter?

I think that, perhaps, we had better all wait until we get the exact terms of the Treaty. As to the question of the Christian minorities, I think the best guarantee for them in the future is the more friendly relations between Great Britain and Turkey.

Is there any reference in the Treaty to Turkey joining the League of Nations?

The Treaty will certainly be registered with the League of Nations.

Would this not be an opportune moment for us to have a permanent representative at Angora?

That question has been asked several times in the past, and there is no doubt that the whole of that matter will be considered in the near future.

With regard to the "certain minor alterations" mentioned, will the hon. Gentleman state whether the account of the details which appeared in the newspapers, particularly the "Times," this morning, is substantially correct?

Yes, I think that it is probably substantially correct, but I do not know whether it includes the smaller alterations that were made.

Does the signing of the Treaty mean that we shall be able to evacuate Iraq in four years?

Egypt

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the interview which has taken place with Zaghloul Pasha since the recent elections in Egypt, Lord Lloyd has laid down any conditions which His Majesty's Government requires Zaghloul Pasha to accept before they will consent to his forming a Government?

Are the categorical statements in the Press last week, giving the actual conditions laid down by Lord Lloyd, entirely devoid of foundation?

Coal Trade Dispute

Prices

asked the Secretary for Mines if his attention has been called to the feeling that prevails in many industrial centres in regard to the increased prices now being demanded for coal at present above ground and on which the subsidy has been paid by the taxpayer; and whether he will take steps to prevent such profiteering arising out of the national crisis?

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on Tuesday to the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander). Perhaps he will be good enough to send me particulars of any complaints that he has received.

Wages and Costs

asked the Secretary for Mines whether, owing to the diversity of figures supplied, he will give a detailed statement showing the wages received by the different classes of workmen employed in the mines; what the respective proposed reductions would amount to; the cost per ton of coal at the pit's mouth for some of the principal grades; and the reason for the substantial difference between that cost and the price charged to the consumer?

It would be impossible within the reasonable limits of an answer to a question to give all the information for which my hon. and gallant friend asks; but if he will be good enough to discuss the matter with me I will see what can be done to meet the objects which he has in view.

Is it not desirable that some figures should be given so as to show the difference between the cost of raising coal—the wages paid and the allowances given—and the price at which it can be obtained in the ordinary household?

Yes, Sir. I quite agree, but I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will see that if we can discuss it together, that would be the most satisfactory way.

Is it not advisable, instead of discussing it together—though I quite appreciate the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's offer—that this information should be forthcoming in the interests of the country as a whole.

Unfortunately, as the House knows, all the details of wages and other particulars in connection with the mining industry are extremely complicated, and in issuing a statement you may include something which applies to one set of conditions but not to another.

Is it not a fact that there would be a great saving and coal would cost less to the consumer if the coal distribution were dealt with, rather than wages?

In supplying figures such as have been asked for, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman get one or two price lists from the collieries to indicate the price per ton paid to the person who produces the coal and places it ready for distribution?

I need hardly say that has been done a long time ago. As regards the question put by the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Law-son), I think there is a great deal to be said about that matter, but we must remember that some of the statements which are made are considerably exaggerated. I have had a number of cases brought to me, which I had investigated and a great many of them proved to be without foundation.

Is it not a fact that in London the acknowledged net profits are as much as some of the men get for hewing the coal?

Arising out of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement that the miners' wages question is very complicated, is it not the fact that the wages paid immediately prior to the lock-out were below par— were below the subsistence level?

Negotiations (Representatives)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the difficulty of the present representatives of the colliery owners and the Miners' Federation coming together in a friendly spirit, he will consider a Government suggestion to those bodies to elect fresh representatives for the purpose of negotiation?

I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. I do not think that action by the Government of the kind suggested would improve the prospects of a settlement.

In view of the fact that one of the principal persons responsible for these negotiations has said that, until the whole of the employers' profits have been extracted and the collieries rendered un-remunerative, he will not have succeeded in his object, will the right hon. Gentleman consider this matter?

I am not sure that a request to the parties to elect fresh representatives would not be a reason to both parties for re-electing the same representatives.

Royal Commission Report

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of copies of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Coal Industry which have been sold to the public; and how many have been distributed free of charge?

The number of copies of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Coal Industry which have been sold up to midday on Friday, the 4th June, is 85,270; and the number of copies which have been distributed free of charge, i.e., supplied for official purposes to Government Departments, to the House of Commons, etc., is 2,448.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House the total loss involved in the publication of this Report?

Will it not be possible to distribute the Report among the working miners, so that they will know what the Commission states about the industry?

Would it not be possible to have a shorter edition or précis made, which would be likely to be read by the miners and others interested?

Why this wonderful solicitude for the miners getting to know something about their industry, which they know at first hand? Why not provide it for the lawyers in the party opposite?

Slack

( for Mr. LANS-BURY) asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that certain coal-owners and others are offering for sale large quantities of slack and waste deposits lying in and around the pits to electricity undertakings, such undertakings being the only industries which under great difficulties are able to utilise this waste; that these deposits are, in the ordinary course, considered of no value and are written off as a loss; and will he consider the advisability of using his powers under the Emergency Powers Regulations to take over the heaps of slack piled up in mining areas, and so prevent exploitation in this respect?

One or two complaints about the prices charged for slack have reached me, and I am looking into them. I am quite prepared to consider exercising powers under the Emergency Act to requisition coal or control prices if, in the last resort, this should prove necessary for the protection of the consumer.

Is it not a fact that this small coal and waste is sent up free of charge by the miner?

I do not quite know what the right hon. Gentleman means by free of charge.

Is it not a fact that in a great majority of mines the miner sends up what are called "smalls" and dust, for which he gets no money?

Questions

League of Nations Council

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the meeting of the Council of the League of Nations now being held, whether there has been any difference in the instructions given to the British delegate with regard to the future composition of this body as compared with those on which he acted early in the year; and, if so, of what nature such difference is?

I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. The instructions given to our representatives in March, which were read to the House by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his speech on the 23rd March, still hold good with the modification announced to the House by the Secretary of State in his reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) on 28th April.

General Medical Council

asked the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether the Crown nominee on the General Medical Council will make any annual Report to the Government on its proceedings; and whether, in that case, the document will be published?

The hon. Member appears to be under some misapprehension. The meetings of the General Medical Council are open to the public and are reported in the daily Press and professional journals. The official Minutes of the proceedings are published and are supplied to the Privy Council, and are also available to the public.

Will the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), answer questions in this House concerning the General Medical Council, in view of his appointment?

British Honduras (Legacy) Trust

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what provision is being made to administer the legacy placed at the disposal of the Government of British Honduras; and whether he can publish now and at intervals the allotment of this income?

Under the terms of the late Baron Bliss's will, the bulk of his estate devolves upon a trust consisting of the gentlemen holding the offices of Governor, Colonial Secretary and Attorney-General of British Honduras, with power to add to their number. The income of the trust, subject to certain prior charges, is to be devoted to such purposes as the trustees consider to be for the benefit or development of the Colony, under certain limitations prescribed in the will. I understand that the trustees are at present engaged in winding up the estate, and in ascertaining its assets and the revenue to be anticipated. I have no reason to doubt that they will in due course publish periodical statements as to the allocation of the income under their control.

Royal Parks (Refreshments)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will consider as to the appointment of a Departmental Committee to inquire into the existing arrangements for the supply of refreshments in the parks under the control of the Office of Works, and to make suggestions for the improvement of the present facilities?

The First Commissioner sees no necessity for the appointment of a committee. He is always open to consider any suggestions which may be made for improving the present facilities.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman do his best to persuade the Noble Lord to sample a few of these meals in the parks, so that he may find out how correct is the statement in the question?

Knightsbridge Barracks

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are being taken for the disposal of Knightsbridge Barracks?

I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave on the 20th May to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bootle (Lieut.-Colonel Henderson).

Death in Bedford Gaol (R. Russell)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the death of Reginald Russell, an unconvicted prisoner, in Bedford gaol, and to the rider of the jury regarding removal to hospital, and to the statement of the widow that though her husband had been lying seriously ill for 10 days she had received no communication from the prison officials; what arrangements are made for removal to hospital of unconvicted prisoners who are seriously ill; what regulations exist for securing that relatives are informed of serious illness; and whether they were complied with in the present instance?

My right hon. Friend will not be in a position to answer questions on this matter until he has before him the result of the inquiry which, as stated on the 3rd instant in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Southwark (Colonel Day), has been instituted by the Prison Commissioners.

Jersey (Prehistoric Monument)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Marshal Conway, Governor of the Island of Jersey in 1785, was trustee for the Crown in the purchase of a site on which was a prehistoric monument of the Stone Age, and that he took the monument as a gift and transported it to Park Place, in England; and whether steps will be taken to ascertain the conditions on which the building might be restored to Jersey in the interests of archæology?

The Home Secretary is not aware of the incident referred to, but he is making inquiries, and will communicate with my hon. Friend in due course.

Aliens (Deportation)

asked the Home Secretary whether he will at an early date introduce legislation to prevent foreigners, who have got rid of their nationality of origin and have not acquired another or have a doubtful one, from prolonging indefinitely the procedure for removing them from this country after they have become undesirable?

No, Sir. An alien deported from the United Kingdom must be sent to some destination; and he cannot be sent to any country whose authorities do not recognise him as a national. It is not therefore possible to take any steps, whether by fresh legislation or otherwise, to secure the removal of aliens for whom national recognition cannot be obtained.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that some persons are considered by some nations as belonging to one nationality and by other nations as belonging to another nationality, and, therefore, is not very careful consideration necessary to this very important question?

That is a confirmation of the difficulties with which we have to contend.

Provincial Police (Control)

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received representations as to the advisability of the provincial police force being controlled direct by the Government and not by local watch committees or standing joint committees; and is he prepared to consider the matter?

My right hon. Friend does not remember receiving, and certainly could not entertain, a proposal of this kind.

Plymouth Detectives (Employment Abroad)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that two Plymouth detectives were engaged in the capture of two men of foreign nationality on an American ship in a foreign, port; whether the expenses incurred will be met by the ratepayers of Plymouth; and why an application for help made to the London police authorities was refused, in view of the undesirability in the best interests of a town that two members of its small detective force should be drafted, at short notice, out of the country to investigate foreign crime?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative, the shipping company having undertaken to defray the full cost entailed. With regard to the last part of the question, Plymouth is outside the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police, and it was not considered necessary to detail officers from Scotland Yard for the duty, which was in fact carried out very effectively by the Plymouth detectives.

Australia (Beitish War Loans)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of money lent by this country to the Commonwealth of Australia, how much of it has been paid, and on what terms?

I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the money lent to the Commonwealth by the Imperial Government in connection with the War. The original debt was £92,480,156. The capital sum repaid to date is £5,614,274. The debt is being repaid by a 36 years' annuity which commenced in 1921–22. The rate of interest averages approximately 5 per cent. and corresponds to the cost at which the money was raised.

Trade Facilities Guarantees

Esthonia

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if a guarantee under the Trade Facilities Act for a loan has been granted to Esthonia?

A guarantee has been given in respect of a loan of £130,000, the object of which is the purchase of railway materials in this country.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many years will elapse before the final payments are made? What is the length of the loan?

I cannot give any details about the loan without notice, because I have taken only the particulars asked for in the question.

Newfoundland Power and Paper Company

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if the £2,000,000 guaranteed credit advanced to the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company, Limited, is a first charge on all the assets of the company?

The guaranteed loan is now a second charge ranking after £2,000,000 First Mortgage Debenture Stock, of which £1,000,000 has been issued, and no more can be issued without the consent of the Treasury and of the Newfoundland Government.

Finance Bill

Motor Vehicle Duties

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the existing licence duties imposed by the Finance Act, 1920, on motor-cycles and motor-cars taxed on horse power are yielding a greater amount of revenue than was anticipated or than is represented by the wear and tear they impose upon the roads, he will consider a reduction in the rates of licence duty on those classes of motor vehicles?

The answer is in the negative. The principles which will govern the taxation of such vehicles in future were explained in the Budget Statement.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to limit to the current financial year the diversion from the Road Fund to the Exchequer of one-third of the annual yield of the licence duties on private motor cars and motor cycles, so that the principle of imposing a luxury tax on road vehicles may be fully considered in all its aspects before it is made part of the permanent system of taxation?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he cannot see his way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Income Tax (Government EmployéS Abroad)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that British subjects engaged locally in the service of the dredging craft at the Singapore naval base have no Income Tax charges made on their salaries, he will consider giving the same exemption to employés sent overseas, whose salaries, inclusive of colonial allowances, are assessed for Income Tax and who have to maintain their wives and families at home?

A person holding an office or employment under the Crown and paid out of the public revenue of the United Kingdom is chargeable with Income Tax under Schedule E in respect of his emoluments, whether he carries out his duties in this country or abroad. If the British subjects engaged locally at Singapore, to whom the hon. Member refers, do not fall within this description they would not be chargeable under Schedule E in respect of their salaries, but I could not regard this circumstance as affording any ground for a departure from the general rule of the Income Tax Acts to which I have alluded.

May I take it then that if these men are charged with Income Tax in Singapore, they are wrongly charged?

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee A

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Crompton Wood; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston.

further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Chartered Associations (Protection of Names and Uniforms) Bill): Major-General Sir John David-, son; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Rowland Blades.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

Finance Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Duty on Tea.)

I beg to move, in page 2, line 7, to leave out the word "fourpence," and to insert instead thereof the words "one penny."

I do not propose to delay the Committee for very long, seeing that this matter has been up again and again for some years, as we were reminded the other day. But there are one or two special reasons why the Government should take some action. One reason why this Amendment was put down is that we on this side are concerned about the tendency of this Government's dealing with indirect taxation in relation to direct taxation. Before the War it was considered a desirable aim to have a "fifty-fifty" basis between direct and indirect taxation. Since the War there has been a real attempt to get more just relations between the two. My right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) in 1924 managed to get indirect taxation to a very little over 36 per cent. Since then we have increased the proportion of indirect taxation to nearly 40 per cent., by means of the two Budgets of the present Government. I think that is a very unjust thing to do, having regard to the condition of the workers since the War.

It has been demonstrated once more that war makes the poor poorer and the rich richer, and therefore it is unjustifiable to go on reducing direct taxation upon the accumulated wealth of the rich and at the same time to leave untouched the taxes upon the necessities of the people. A whole body of wealth, very often wealth made by profiteering during the War, has been lent to the Government at round about 5 per cent. interest. At the time when people lent that money the Income Tax stood at 6s. in the £. Still, those people were quite prepared to invest their money, and knew what the net yield of their investments would be. Now that the Income Tax has been reduced from 6s. to 4s. in the £ they are getting relief in taxation and an in- crease in the capital value of their securities due to the increased value of money. Alongside, we see the wage-earner's income steadily decreasing. Since 1921 hundreds of millions of pounds have been taken off the wages of the workers, and still there are these heavy imposts upon the necessities of life, for I do not think anyone could argue to-day that tea is not an actual necessity of diet.

Look at the profits made by tea companies. I have one or two instances in front of me. The Eastern Produce Company have paid 42½ per cent.; Jhanzie 45 per cent.; Ouvah, Ceylon, 35 per cent.; the Travancore, 60 per cent.; and Pabbojan, 75 per cent. I could go on reading out the records of companies making these enormous profits. As the Government have been so merciful to them as to reduce the Income Tax upon their profits by one-third during the last three or four years, is it not reasonable to ask for some concession to the consumers of tea? This is not an ad valorem duty; it is a flat-rate duty. All grades of tea, whatever the selling price, bear the same burden of taxation, and although I freely admit that it is difficult to sell the very cheapest tea in this country to-day—there is very little demand for tea at 1s. 6d. and 1s. 8d. per 1b.—still, even where the price varies from 2s. to 3s. 8d. or 4s. per lb., all that tea bears the same rate of duty, and I regard that as an unfair thing. It would be very much better to wipe out such a duty altogether and to do something in this Budget to increase the purchasing capacity of working-class consumers.

It is worthy of note that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not consider it worth his while even to reply to an Amendment of this importance. Seeing that other opportunities for discussion of the Finance Bill were foregone by force of circumstances, it is extraordinary that he should now treat with contempt and silence an Amendment which aims at remedying one of the fundamental faults of his finance. The whole tendency of his policy is to place on the poor, by indirect taxes, burdens that ought to be carried by the rich by means of direct taxes. That is the fundamental objection both to his protective duties and duties which are semi-protective, like the silk duties. The tea duty and the sugar duty are two of the worst taxes. They are not optional. By no stretch of the imagination can tea be described as a luxury. Tea is a necessity just as much as sugar is. Yet the right hon. Gentleman does not find it convenient even to reply to an Amendment which asks him to reduce this tax on a necessity of the poor. Those of us on these benches will fight, as we have done in previous years, for a reduction of this tax, whether it be done under this Amendment or any other. The result of the discussion is a foregone conclusion, but it is not worthy of the dignity of the House or the merits of the case that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should treat such an Amendment with silence.

If I did not rise immediately to take part in this Debate it was because I thought it would be more convenient to the Committee that I should wait until further arguments had been advanced in favour of the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman who moved it kept his remarks short, and I thought it was probable there was more to be said on behalf of the proposal. It was, therefore, with no disrespect to the Committee that I waited until the case for the Amendment had been put squarely before the Committee before intervening, and I still propose to take that course. Perhaps I may say here what a satisfaction it is to us to see the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) back in his place, in time to take part in the stages of the Bill which yet remain to be dealt with, and to know that he will be able to spare sufficient time for these Debates in spite of his other preoccupations.

I wish to emphasise one or two of the arguments which have been already used rather than to develop other arguments. This duty falls unequally upon the people and violates the fundamental ethics of taxation, namely, that it should be laid upon the backs of those best able to bear the burden. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer was relieving those who are well able to bear yet heavier burdens, while this burden on the very poor is still continued. Another reason for supporting the Amendment is that it follows the policy adopted by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget. He had the will to reduce this form of taxation, and, having the will, he found a, way, and what he did was greatly appreciated throughout the country. If the present Chancellor of the Exchequer had the same will to benefit the people and to give them this boon, he also could have found a way. The question will doubtless be raised as to how far a reduction would benefit the consumer. It is quite true that in the fluctuations in the price of sugar and the price of tea you cannot always put your finger on the exact benefit the consumer has received, but it has been admitted by the Chancellors of all parties and Governments, and I think it was admitted last year by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the benefit of what was done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley in this respect was reaped by the consumer.

My last reason for emphasising the value of such a remission is that I think it would increasingly take away people from the more dangerous forms of drink to those more innocent, if not always perfectly harmless forms. I belong to the city of Glasgow, which has had an enormous development in the matter of tearooms, and I do not know any city which is better situated in that regard. Even within my own memory there has been a great increase in those restaurants in Glasgow, and I think this has had a great effect in counteracting habits of intemperance. It has been the means of fostering a healthy fellowship among the people and altogether has had a most wholesome effect. For these and other reasons I shall support this Amendment.

I quite agree with what has been said by previous speakers that this Budget, like the Budget of last year, can only be described as an attempt to assist the rich people of the country at the expense of the poor. One can remember, in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's great Radical days, his plea for the poor and his desire to assist in every way possible the people in dire circumstances. In the present Finance Bill you have only two Clauses which can really be looked upon as calculated to give some kind of relief to the poor people of this country, and they are being passed over by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There is to be no remission of taxation so far as they are concerned, although the right hon. Gentleman passes on gladly to do what he was told he was required to do on the lines of giving £30,000,000 to the wealthy people in this country last year. This year he has to mate good that loss by putting further taxation on the people, and extending his policy of safeguarding industries in order to recoup himself for the sum which he handed back last year to the wealthy classes. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not consider that it is time that he gave some consideration to the working classes of this country? Last year he gave remission in taxation amounting to £30,000,000 to the wealthy classes of this country, and he gave no remission whatever to the poorer classes. In spite of that, this year there is no remission of taxation in regard to the poorer classes, although there is a continuation of the remission of taxation to wealthy people.

In these circumstances we can only assume that the criticism made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) was a correct one, that this Government have come into office prepared to safeguard and further entrench the vested interests of the property and wealthy classes, and they intend passing legislation with a view to placing those classes in a more advantageous position than they have hitherto been in. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wishes to carry into effect some of the wonderful phrases he used on the platform in his Radical days about his great concern for the down-trodden people and his desire to make Britain a place to live in under good conditions, he had better accept this Amendment, and at least give some consideration to those people for whom in the past he expressed sympathy on the platform, but now, when he has the power, instead of helping these poor people, he is doing everything he can to rob them.

I supported a similar Amendment to the one we are now considering last year, and I am going to support this Amendment to-day. As I pointed out last year, the Budget was a rich man's Budget, but it was nothing compared with the Budget introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden)—

It is usual on some such Amendment as this to have a discussion on the principle of direct and indirect taxation, but I would like to point out that this discussion must not be repeated on other Amendments.

I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out when this question was before the House in December last that it had been arranged that we should have a full discussion on this principle when the question came before the Committee.

I understand that you, Mr. Chairman, rule that on this particular Amendment it is quite in Order to discuss the general question of direct and indirect taxation, which I understand the hon. Member desires to deal with.

That is so, but I only wish to point out that the discussion cannot be repeated on subsequent Amendments.

I would like to ask you, Mr. Chairman, to bear in mind, in giving your rulings on this question and exercising your powers, that the position is quite unprecedented, because the discussion of details on two important stages of this Measure have been omitted.

I will bear that and all other relevant considerations in mind, including the temporary absence of the hon. and gallant Member.

In reply to a question put last year, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that the direct taxation then imposed upon the taxpayers amounted to something like 35 per cent. I wish to point out that in the past the Chancellor of the Exchequer has advocated a free breakfast table for the poor, and now he is giving relief to the rich instead of carrying out the policy which he preached at that time. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he reduced taxation on food by something like £30,000,000, and I think that even the present Chancellor of the Exchequer last year admitted that the greater part of that £30,000,000 had found its way into the pockets of the consumers. If that be true, then that £30,000,000 must have been spent in a way which must have assisted in stimulating employment in the industries of the country. I want to point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he gave relief in taxation to the Supertax payers last year, and that has been continued this year, and if he will look up the figures which he gave in a reply in this House he will find that the relief given to Super-tax payers since 1914 up to the present year has increased by something like 200 per cent.

4.0 P.M.

We find, according to the returns, that we have in this country to-day nearly 600 millionaires. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer can tax them instead of coming down on the poor every year. A Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has to find over £800,000,000 of taxation, ought to try and find some method of taxing the rich of the country instead of coming down continually on the poor and working class, who cannot actually bring two ends together. You have to-day Supertax payers who are drawing nearly £1,000,000 a day in interest on money lent to the Government out of their profiteering during the War. I suppose it is useless to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he will offend his friends if he gives this remission; but I hope the time is not far distant when we shall have a Chancellor of the Exchequer who will not merely make promises on the platform but will put into practice what he preaches.

I am afraid that, as all the speakers have foreseen in their remarks, I am not in a position to part with the revenue which would be involved in accepting the present Amendment. My position has not been improved by recent events in the country, and I feel more inclined to be looking about in the near future for additional sources of taxation than to part with any of the revenue on which the Budget was balanced. But I do not think the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. T. Griffiths) nor the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) have any just or general grievance against His Majesty's Government on the ground that the balance of taxation has turned adversely against the indirect taxpayer or the mass of the working class. The exact contrary has been the truth. In the first place, it should not be assumed that indirect taxation is paid only by the working class. It is paid by all classes of the community. In the next place, it should not be assumed, as the hon. Member who has just sat down was inclined to assume, that the interest on the National Debt goes only to the well-to-do classes.

On the contrary, a very substantial proportion goes, not only to small investors, but to the great friendly societies and public bodies which invest their funds in this form of Government security. Therefore, while no doubt it is true that this is not the largest part of the interest, it nevertheless is a very important part. But let us look at the course of the balance between direct and indirect taxation since the period before the War. As the Committee knows, the proportion of indirect taxation was before the War steadily getting less. It reached what was considered by many great financial authorities to be a harmonious equipoise when it was evenly divided, half the, revenue being raised by indirect taxation and half by direct taxation. But already before the War a further alteration in favour of the the indirect taxpayer had been effected under the Administration in which I have been reminded I was to some extent responsible, and in 1913–14 42·5 per cent. of our revenue was raised by indirect taxation, and 57·5 per cent. by direct taxation.

What is the position now? One would imagine that the clock had been set back, judging from the speeches to which we have listened, and that there was a definite policy of altering the balance to the detriment of the indirect taxpayer and in favour of the direct taxpayer. The figures absolutely dispose of such a suggestion. The War with its enormous, burdens led to large increases both in direct and indirect taxation, but the increases in direct taxation were much larger than the increases in indirect taxation, and the proportion of the burdens which all classes had to assume during the War was far heavier in the case of the direct than in the case of the indirect taxpayer. In fact, we emerged from the War in 1922–23, when the Budgets began to become more normal, with a percent age of indirect taxation of 35·58 and of direct taxation of 64·42. Then we came to the period of the great diminution in indirect taxation made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite in 1924–25. At that period, the proportion of indirect taxation was 33"07 and of direct taxation 66·93. What is the proportion to-day? The proportion to-day in the present Budget on the Estimates for 1926–27, is 35·36 indirect taxation, and 64·64 direct taxation. It may be said that on the face of it that appears a little less favour able to the indirect taxpayer—

than the Budget arrangement which was approved by the Labour party. But those figures require further examination. Calculated in the total of the indirect taxation for the present year, is no less than £16,000,000 raised by luxury taxation, which, though they are taxes which are indirect in their form, do not throw any appreciable burden upon the working-classes. For example, taxation which is imposed on foreign motor-cars, on silk, and on betting. This class of taxation cannot possibly be treated on the same footing as taxes, we will say, on tea or on sugar. It is absurd to say that the two classes of taxation are comparable. These luxury taxes which I am advancing into year after year with a good deal of trouble and exertion, but still not without substantial reward, are almost exclusively —in overwhelming proportion—raised out of the luxuries of the rich, and no working man or woman who can dispense with the purchase of a foreign motor-car, who can dispense with the use of silk, or who car, dispense with the pleasure of making a bet, will be compelled to pay any share of them at all. Therefore, in future Budget calculations, it will be indispensable to bear in mind the wholly different character of the luxury or sumptuary taxation from the taxation which has hitherto been raised from the mass of the consumers of the country.

When you make the deductions which are proper in that respect, it will be seen that the actual proportion of indirect taxation this year is practically the same—certainly much less than the 2 per cent. difference—as that which prevailed in the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman. Moreover, next, year, when the new taxes which are being imposed this year are bringing in their full yield, I have no doubt whatever that the ratio between direct and indirect taxation on the same basis of comparison will be more favourable to indirect taxation than in the whole history of the country and more favourable than prevailed in the palmy and exemplary days of the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, there is no ground whatever for this lugubrious complaint that the balance is being altered to the detriment of the toiler, and that advantage is being continually given to wealthy people. That will do very well for the public platform, but it will not stand the sustained examination and searching test which is given to arguments and propositions when they are advanced in the House of Commons. With regard to the tax on tea and the proposal that the hon. Gentleman has made, I in no way recede from a desire to see the tax on tea lightened or removed. I wish it were in my power to remove it. Certainly, it is the first of the indirect taxes which, in my opinion, deserve the attention of Parliament.

A tax on tea presses more upon the ordinary consumer than even a tax on sugar, in the present conditions. Tea is, after all, the first of the comforts of the mass of the people, and, in many cases, it is almost the only comfort among the very poor. It would be a very grateful thing, I am sure, to any Chancellor of the Exchequer, whatever party he represented, if it should become possible to remove the duty on tea, that is to say, to remove the duty on Empire-grown tea, because the overwhelming mass of the tea which is consumed in this country is derived from the British Empire; only a very small proportion—much too small to influence the general price—comes from foreign sources. Those who are aiming at what may be considered to be the worthy goal of a free Empire breakfast table will at any rate find in tea the most hopeful and the first subject in which that desirable advance may be achieved.

I do not know whether, in the life of the present Parliament, it will be possible for someone standing here to declare that for the future Empire tea will come in free. The loss to the revenue would be in the neighbourhood of £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, because, when we speak of tea in fiscal matters, we include also the cocoa group—cocoa, coffee and chicory. I hope, however, that hon. Gentlemen opposite who form the official Opposition will consider very carefully the burden and incidence of a tax upon tea, and compare it with the burden, for instance, of a Silk Tax. The Silk Duties produce more than the Tea Duty; the Betting Duty will produce more than the Tea Duty. If our finances were in a favourable condition, and if we were in a position to remit taxation, either of these taxes, the payment of which leaves no one in the slightest degree the worse, which impose no sort of hardship upon the mass of the people, would more than balance the complete abolition of the Tea Duty as far as Empire tea is concerned. I can, naturally, give no sort of undertaking; I do not know at all what our future financial position will be; but I state, on behalf of the Government, that we should regard it as a grateful task if it should be in our power at any time in the course of the present Parliament, to remove the duty on tea. More than that I cannot say, but I hope that what I have said, both on the subject of the duty on tea and also on the relationship of this particular duty to the general balance of direct and indirect taxation, may at any rate show that, on whatever topics there may be great divisions of principle, there are, on this particular question which is now before the Committee, no divisions of deep antagonistic principle, but only in regard to questions of time and method and practical policy.

I suppose the Committee must feel grateful for the ray of hope which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us. My hon. Friends who have already taken part in the Debate will not be disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman should have expressed his inability to accept this Amendment, for they, at least, never expected that he would. The financial policy of the right hon. Gentleman has not conduced to remission of taxation, but, as he himself said, rather to an increase of taxation. Hon. Members-opposite laughed rather cynically at the opening observation of my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment, when he said that this was not the first time such an Amendment as this had been submitted to the House of Commons in Committee on the Finance Bill. But the fact that this proposal for a reduction of the Tea Duty is made year after year by whatever party sits on the Opposition Benches, shows that there is —I do not know whether it may be due to the opinion that it is a popular thing to do this or not—it shows, at any rate, that, if we are to take these Amendments from all parties as being sincerely moved, then there is a desire in the House of Commons that there should be a reduction of the duty on tea.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to say in the course of his Budget speech, I think last year, referring to the reductions upon tea and sugar which had been made in the Budget of the previous year, that the consumer had received the benefit of those reductions. I know that there are those in the country who do not altogether share that view, but I think there can be no doubt that, however much the price of the taxed commodity may vary owing to fluctuations in the market, in the case of a taxed commodity like tea or sugar the benefit of any reduction of taxation does go to the consumer. I do not know much about the tea market, but, from what I am told, the present would be a peculiarly favourable opportunity for reducing the duty upon tea. I understand that the market is somewhat short, and that there is, therefore, a possibility of an increase in the price of tea; and, if we could do something to counteract the disadvantage to the consumer of a possible increase in the price of tea, we should be doing something which, undoubtedly, would be of benefit to him.

The discussion, so far, on this Amendment, has dealt less with the special merits of the Amendment, that is to say, with the question of a reduction in the duty upon tea, than with the broader question of the general incidence of taxation, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer devoted a great part of his speech to trying to prove that there had been no, or very little, increase, or very little change, in the relative proportions of direct and indirect taxation in the two Budgets that he has submitted in the House of Commons. He himself, however, was bound to admit that he has increased the amount of indirect taxation by something like 2 per cent., and 2 per cent. would represent a considerable number of millions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Sixteen millions!"] I am not in the least impressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's argument. He pointed out that for some years before the War there had been a general tendency to raise a larger proportion of national revenue by direct than by indirect taxation. That is a very interesting point, and, if the Chancellor had carried his investigations further, he would have discovered other very illuminating facts.

For instance, he would have found that, for the greater part of the 19th century, nearly the whole of the tax revenue of the country was raised by indirect taxation. It is some time ago since I looked carefully into this matter, but, if my memory serves me, so late as 1880 about 80 per cent. of the tax revenue of this country was raised from indirect taxation. It is rather significant that from that time there should have been a rapid change in the relative proportions of direct and indirect taxation, because it was at that time that the franchise was extended. For 80 years of the 19th century the working people of this country had been groaning under the burden of heavy and unjustified taxation; but, when they got the vote, then Members of Parliament and Governments began to pay some attention to their demands, and this lightening of the burden of taxation of the working people progressed right up to the time of the War. Of course, the War changed everything. It was quite impossible to finance a war of that kind—it might have been done during the Napoleonic Wars, although, as a matter of fact, it was not done then—

Yes, there was very high direct taxation, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, was afterwards repealed. Pitt, I think, imposed an Income Tax of something like 2s. in the £ on incomes of £60 a year. It was quite impossible to finance the late War out of direct taxation; it could only be financed by taxing the rich people.

Therefore, it is no argument, as bearing upon the present situation, to say that during the War the proportion of direct to indirect taxation considerably increased; there was no other source of taxation from which the expenses of the War could have been raised. Now I come to the Chancellor's point as to the character and incidence of the new indirect taxes which he has levied in this Budget and in last year's Budget. He closed with a statement, made certainly not for the first time in this House, as to the difference between indirect taxation in the form of what he calls luxury taxes, and indirect taxation upon articles which might be regarded as necessaries—

Necessaries or comforts. I think that when he was referring to the yield of the Silk Duties he certainly included artificial silk. Surely, the right hon. Gentleman is not going to maintain that duties upon artificial silk fall within the category of luxury taxation? He admitted, in his interjection just now, that they are in his opinion taxes upon comforts. The purposes for which artificial silk fabrics are used are scarcely comforts; they are absolute necessaries. They are absolutely necessary, and it is sheer nonsense for the right hon. Gentleman to say the revenue he is getting from the Artificial Silk Tax is in the nature of a luxury tax and that people can either pay the taxes on the articles or go without. The right hon. Gentleman assumed that all imported foreign motor cars are luxuries, but that is certainly not the case. The great bulk of the motor cars that come into this country are cheap cars which are used to a very great extent, I should think mainly, for trade purposes and by professional men, or at any rate they do not fall within the category of luxury articles.

Therefore, I do not admit the elaborate distinction the right hon. Gentleman has drawn between indirect taxation, broadly speaking, and the taxes he has imposed during the last two years. The people pay them in any case. But supposing we were to grant his contention, it has not the slightest bearing upon the Amendment, because he himself admits that the duty upon tea is a bad thing and that it falls upon a very essential article of consumption, and he confessed in his concluding observations that if he were in a position to do so he would wipe it off altogether; therefore, the argument about his luxury taxation has no bearing at all upon this. Last year the right hon. Gentleman made very considerable reductions in direct taxation. He could, last year, have devoted some part of his surplus to the reduction or abolition of the Tea Duty, but if he had a choice between a reduction or abolition of the Tea Duty and a reduction or abolition of the Sugar Tax I do not think it would be best for the general public to take the choice of a reduction of tea, because it affects only those who actually consume it in the form of tea. But sugar is something more than that. It is a very important ingredient of a great many industries. However, we are not discussing the Sugar Duty now and I am only bringing in that parenthetically. But the Tea Duty, as the right hon. Gentleman himself has admitted, is an onerous burden upon the poor, and, instead of giving relief to those who do not stand in need of it and keeping on this duty, it would have been very much better if he had used the means he had at his disposal last year to give some further reduction in the duty on tea.

What is the record of the Party opposite in regard to the reduction of indirect taxation since the War? Indirect taxation was raised to the highest possible point during the War. The only reductions of indirect taxation which have been made by Tory Chancellors of the Exchequer since the War have been a reduction of the Tea Duty and a reduction in the Beer Duties. I refused to be grateful in the least for the reduction of the Beer Duties. They gave something like £20,000,000 of revenue.

Their profits have gone up very considerably since the reduction was made. I am not going through the long list of reliefs that Tory Governments have given to their special friends. The Mover of the Amendment mentioned that the Income Tax during that time has been reduced by a- third, the Super-tax has been reduced, Excess Profits Duty has been wiped out altogether, and the Corporation Profits Tax, which brought in about £24,000,000, has been abolished altogether. I never hid my opinion upon that tax at all. It was a bad tax, and the necessary revenue might have been raised in a much more commendable way. However, there have been these enormous reductions of direct taxation and the paltry remissions of indirect taxation, and that is really the main reason why we are urging this Amendment upon the consideration of the Government. I should not have taken part in the Debate but for the Chancellor's observations, particularly in regard to direct and indirect taxation, but may I ask him to remember, when he is talking about the proportions of direct and indirect taxation, the totally different capacity of one class of taxpayers to pay from that of the other. I have never subscribed to the doctrine that there ought to be a 50–50 arrangement. I think that would be most unfair, because if we had such an arrangement one party would be paying far more than it had the capacity to pay and the other would be let off very lightly indeed.

May I mention this other point arising out of what the right hon. Gentleman said. If I remember rightly, the figures he gave, he said before the War the proportion of indirect taxation was about 42½ per cent. and about 57½ of direct taxation. The proportions now are about 64 and 35. Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten this fact? He gave a reply last week about the gross amount of assessment to Income Tax in the last year or two—the nearest date for which the figures were available. Again speaking from memory, the gross amount assessed to Income Tax before the War was about £1,000,000,000. Now it is three times more than that. I am not forgetting that there are people paying Income Tax to-day who were not paying it in 1914. To use a phrase that Ministers sometimes use, I am taking all relevant facts into consideration. Still there is that enormous increase in the amount of income which is now available for Income Tax. The right hon. Gentleman says the value of money has decreased, but surely that applies just as much to the workers as to those who receive fixed incomes, and a decrease in the purchasing power of money affects a man with an income of £3 a week far more than a man with an income of £1,000 a week. Therefore all the justice is upon the side of those who argue that instead of making a further remission of direct taxation we ought to concentrate upon reducing still further the heavy burden that is borne by those who contribute to indirect taxation.

The discussions on the relative proportion of direct and indirect taxation are really not based on any principle whatever. The whole idea of the 50–50 arrangement has been completely upset. It was never anything more than a rule-of-thumb division, but the alteration in values and the growth of the national revenue have made the 50–50, or the 64–37, arrangement, or whatever it may be, quite impossible as a guide. The only true guide is how far the section of the community, which has to bear the great bulk of the tax, is capable of bearing it. There is no other side of the case. With regard to tea

the principle cannot be very closely applied, but we do know that the great bulk of the Tea Duty is actually borne by the wage-earning classes. It is not borne by the rentier, by the people who live on dividends, by the people who draw their profits from business, but by those who have a large number of persons in their household to feed, and there is no other way in which you can gauge the amount of the tax. It depends not on the capacity to pay but on the size of the household. Those with large families pay the largest amount of tax. So I may say, in a single sentence, there is only one way in which you can justify keeping this tax up to its present level, and that is if wages maintain the level they were at when the 4d. duty was imposed. We all know that the general scale of wages has gone down. It may be that the relative value has been slightly stabilised by our getting back to the gold standard, but wages on the whole have gone down, and there you find the true justification for a reduction in the Tea Duty.

Question put, "That the word 'four-pence' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 241;. Noes, 105.

Division No. 237.]

AYES.

[4.45 p.m.

Acland Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Broun Lindsay, Major H.

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Albery, Irving James

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Brown, Brig. -Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.Derby)

Bullock, Captain M.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Burman, J. B.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Apsley, Lord

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Ellis, R. G.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Atholl, Duchess of

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Campbell, E. T.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Balniel, Lord

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Fermoy, Lord

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Fielden, E. B.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Christie, J. A.

Forrest, W.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Bennett, A. J.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Clarry, Reginald George

Freemantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Berry, Sir George

Clayton. G. C.

Gates, Percy

Betterton, Henry B.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gault, Lieut. -Col. Andrew Hamilton

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Gower, Sir Robert

Boothby, R. J. G.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Grace, John

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cooper, A. Duff

Grant, J. A.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Cope, Major William

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Couper, J. B.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Brass, Captain W.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Gretton, Colonel John

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Briscoe, Richard George

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey.Gainsbro)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir f. (Dulwich)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

McDonnell Colonel Hon. Angus

Sandon, Lord

Hanbury, C.

McLean, Major A.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

Hartington, Marquess of

Malone, Major P. B.

Skelton, A. N.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Margesson, Captain D.

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Hawke, John Anthony

Meyer, Sir Frank

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hills, Major John Waller

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St.Marylebone)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Murchison, C. K.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Holt, Captain H. P.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G.(Ptrsfld.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Nuttall, Ellis

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Oakley, T.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Hume, Sir G. H.

Penny, Frederick George

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Hurd, Percy A.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Pilcher, G.

Warrender, Sir Victor

James, Lieut. -Colonel Hon. cuthbert

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Preston, William

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Ramsden, E.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Lamb, J. Q.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Remnant, Sir James

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Locker- Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Withers, John James

Locker- Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Womersley, W. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Ropner, Major L.

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Wood, Sir S. Hill (High Peak)

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Salmon, Major l.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord Stanley.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Groves, T.

Murnin, H.

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Naylor, T. E.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Paling, W.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hardie, George D,

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Harney, E. A.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Barnes, A.

Harris, Percy A.

Potts, John S.

Barr, J.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Purcell, A. A.

Batey, Joseph

Hayes, John Henry

Rose, Frank H.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Scrymgeour, E.

Bromley, J.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Buchanan, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Charleton, H. C.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Cluse, W. S.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Connolly, M.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Kelghley)

Cove, W. G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

Dalton, Hugh

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Snell, Harry

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Kelly, W. T.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Day, Colonel Harry

Kennedy, T.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Dennison, R.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Stamford, T. W.

Duncan, C.

Lawrence, Susan

Stephen, Campbell

Dunnico, H.

Lawson, John James

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Livingstone, A. M.

Taylor, R. A.

Gardner, J. P.

Lunn, William

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Gillett, George M.

Mackinder, W.

Thurtle, E.

Gosling, Harry

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Tinker, John Joseph

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

March, S.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Montague, Frederick

Viant, S. P.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Morris, R. H.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Wright, W.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Continuation of Increased Medicine Duties.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

May I make another appeal to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in regard to this Clause, which deals with matters which go back as far as the 17th century. It would be much simpler from the point of view of the taxpayer if the Treasury would produce a Clause showing what duties will be levied, instead of referring to another Act, and by that Act back to another Act, and so on back nearly to 1600. I made an appeal on this point last year. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will look into the matter in the future, and bring in a simple Clause explaining what is meant.

The hon. and gallant Member dealt with this point last year, and my predecessor at the Treasury gave an undertaking that he would have the matter considered before the present Budget. The object of the appeal, as I understand it, last year was that the Treasury should look into the question with a view to the codification of these various old Statutes. It has been very carefully considered, but we have come to the conclusion, and I share the view, that codification by itself would be useless. We want something more than codification; we want a drastic revision of the Statutes. That has not been possible before the present Finance Bill, but it is the intention within the near future to get together an inter-Departmental Committee to go into the matter with a view to deciding exactly what ought to be done to get rid of the superfluity of old Statutes, which are obsolete with regard to particular specifics. There is one particular specific in the Schedule with which I hope the hon. and gallant Member will dose himself, and that is the "Elixir of Longevity." I do not think that Elixir has succeeded in achieving longevity itself, although it remains in the Schedule of the Statute of 1812. So far as I can ascertain, the Elixir is no longer efficacious. That shows that mere codification will not do. I suppose I ought to apologise that more has not come from the promise made by my predecessor, but it has not been possible to take any further step in time for the present Finance Bill. I can only express the hope that this time next year we shall have done something more efficacious in this respect.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the. Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Exemption of trade motor cars from Customs Duty to cease.)

I beg to move, in page 2, line 13, to leave out the word "The," and to insert instead thereof the word "Any."

The Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear in his Budget speech that he was only induced to make this proposal because of the difficulty of distinguishing the commercial car from the ordinary car for pleasure or private purposes. The whole case for the taxation of motor cars has been that motor cars are a luxury, things that people can do without. The idea of a tax on the foreign motor car is that it will increase the price and that that will lead to a decrease in luxury expenditure. That argument cannot apply to the commercial car, which has become a necessity of modern industry, is tending to decrease the cost of transport, to expedite the movement of goods and is revolutionising the whole of the internal industry of the country. Commercial cars are being used more and more, and the more they are used the cheaper will transport be and the cheaper will be the cost of goods. This especially applies to the transport of food products. The effect on the dairy industry of being able to transport by commercial cars goods from the dairy to the town, is a very important factor in decreasing the cost to the consumer. One of the greatest helps to the farmer is the fact that he is able now to remove perishable goods rapidly from the farm, which may be some distance from a railway, and take them by road into the industrial centres cheaply, quickly and efficaciously.

Now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes along with this duty on commercial cars, one of the chief instruments of trans- port. I see the watchful eye of the great tariff reformer, the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) upon me. I suppose he will argue that this tax will not increase the cost of the car, on the ground that it will be paid by the foreigner. He will explain that the duty will bring down the cost of the car. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not under that delusion. His defence of the duty is that it is a luxury duty increasing the cost of a luxury. I am sure that after his deep study of Free Trade he does not think that the foreigner will pay the duty. He is conscious of the fact that, in the long run, the putting of a tax on an article of import will be that the cost will go upon the article.

These arguments are rather wide of the Amendment. I have no objection to the hon. Member raising the whole question of this taxation on this Amendment so long as the argument is not repeated on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

5.0 P.M.

I do not take the view that if you impose a tax on an article it decreases the cost of the article taxed. The purpose of putting a tax on imported goods is advocated by the home producer on the ground that it puts up the price of the imported article and decreases competition. We shall be told that in the last few years, despite taxation, there has been a decrease in the cost of motor cars. Everybody knows that the one industry throughout the world which has made great progress in invention and new methods is the motor car industry. It is an industry still in its infancy. Every year we see new inventions. That being so, there must be a tendency throughout the world for this particular article to come down in price. By limiting the area of and decreasing the competition the advantage of a fall in price must be to that extent denied to the people of this country by this tax. We suggest that the difficulty which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in distinguishing between the private car and the commercial car should be got over by the use of the machinery, to which he is so attached, under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I quite agree that it is difficult to say whether a car will be used for commercial purposes or for private purposes. Many so-called private cars are undoubtedly used for commercial purposes, and I should be the first to recognise that it is very difficult to draw the line. But the fact remains that it is one thing to tax an article used for pleasure, and quite another thing to tax an article used for commercial and business concerns. It is essential that this distinction should be made in the interests of the trade of the country; it is one of the methods so necessary to help trade1 at a time of trade depression like the present.

I do not know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer realises the great competition which our manufacturers have to face in the markets of the world, but several of the industries of this country have been very much helped by the progress made in the manufacture of commercial cars and heavy vehicles. Take the little town of Luton. That little town has suffered great competition in the manufacture of the particular product which it produces. But because it has been able to utilise the commercial car it has been able to take the articles which it produces right on to the docks and to load them on the ships without having to send them by railway at all and without the necessary extra cost which would have been entailed. Many other of the small industries of this country scattered inland have also received great assistance through the expansion of the use of the commercial car. Therefore, for that reason, I say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, knowing his views and wishing to avoid a tax on commercial cars, he should be prepared 1o receive suggestions to exclude as far as possible the commercial car from this tax, which was in its inception a luxury tax and which was imposed for the purpose of keeping out articles which were then considered not to be necessary. Until now this tax has been defended on the ground that it is a tax on luxuries and not on necessities.

May we discuss this Amendment and the next Amendment together?

No. I think they stand together, but it is not necessary for me to put them together.

As the general discussion on this tax is being taken now I wish to state the actual reasons why we on these benches object to these proposals which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. I have read his reference in the Budget speech to his reason for imposing this tax, and I gathered there that what he said then was that he was acting not as the result of the agitation for protection on the part of the makers of commercial cars, not under the influence of any speeches asking for protection for commercial cars, speeches which have been made in previous years from the benches behind him—I gather that all those arguments have left him untouched and the reason he states that he is proposing this tax is because the Customs House finds it difficult to distinguish between the parts of commercial cars, which come in free, and the parts of private cars, which have to be taxed. Therefore, I gather that his sole reason for this new taxation is to diminish the complications which face the Customs and Excise Department. I cannot believe that that argument has convinced anybody in any part of the Committee. The difficulties which confront the Customs Department will be no greater with these taxes than they are now in many other directions. They are difficulties which they have had to deal with for 10 years without a single Chancellor of the Exchequer uttering throughout the whole of those 10 years a single word of complaint in regard to the taxes. When this proposal is brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer we are entitled to ask him, since when has he become so tender-hearted towards the Customs Department? Last year he imposed upon them the Silk Duty with all its complications without a tinge of pity; he also gave them the Lace Duty; towards the close of the year he added the Cutlery Duty, the Leather Gloves Duty, the Fabric Gloves Duty and the Gas Mantles Duty—all without an atom of mercy. Now he is going to add to all this by putting a duty on wrapping and packing paper, a duty full of complications and vexations, without turning a hair. But when a proposal is made on purely Protectionist grounds, he tells us that his reasons for adopting it are not because of the wishes of his supporters but because he wants to lighten the lot and brighten the lives of the clerks at the Customs House. That argument will not carry conviction in any quarter of the House.

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to diminish the problems which face the Customs House, there is quite another alternative before him. He told us last year that the sole reasons for the continuance of the duties upon motor cars was that they were luxury taxes which he had found already imposed and which might as well be left where they were. But now we find that he cannot in fact retain those luxury taxes unless he adds to them a tax on an article which is not a luxury, an article which enters into the largest part of the work of practically every trade in the country, an article which enters directly or indirectly into the cost of production and the price of almost every article in the country. If that be his position, then there is a far simpler proposal which he could well adopt; he could repeal the tax altogether instead of adding to it another tax, which breaks every argument he used last year, falsifies every statement he made, and justifies every criticism which was uttered from these benches. I cannot see why, of all the trades in the country, this particular trade should be selected out for a larger and yet larger experiment in protective duties with each Budget that the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduces. It is the most fortunate trade in the land. I believe that the production of cars is increasing at the rate of over 100,000 every year and the ultimate expansion of this industry has practically no limits. I know it has had difficulties from the year 1920 on wards, but the difficulties are due to causes within its own control, to over-capitalisation, to reckless finance, difficulties which it can overcome for itself and which it is overcoming month by month. As far as these commercial cars are concerned, the special difficulty that confronted them was the activities of the Disposal Board, but I believe the Disposal Board has now practically got rid of all the cars which it had to sell, and those difficulties are now at an end. In the circumstances our view is that there is no justification for asking all the other trades in the country, with all their difficulties, to pay this tribute every year to one of the most fortunate industries in the world.

This particular Clause is one of the most barefaced pieces of effrontery that has ever been put forward in Parliament. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows it, and he glories in it in order that he may still further placate the wild men of the Conservative party. This duty was not asked for or required by the trade of this country. The manufacture of commercial motor cars is flourishing. We are making the finest commercial car in the world, and we are doing a splendid export trade. Our home market is hardly touched by foreign competition, principally because the industry has never had to suffer from an inverted Socialism, in other words, from State interference by way of a tariff. The McKenna Duties undoubtedly hampered the essential expansion of the British light motor car and private car industry. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Coins Valley (Mr. Snowden) abolished the McKenna Duties, and the British private motor car industry gave a spurt and leapt forward by reason of this help. [ Laughter. ] The hon. Baronet the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) knows it. Figures have been given in this House. Figures have been asked for by Tariff Reformers on the other side as to the unemployment in the motor industry at periods of six months, and every time the Protectionist Minister of Labour has replied he has had to admit that the unemployment is less. I do not want to go into the case, but it is notorious that the private car industry is flourishing to-day in spite of the McKenna Duties, and largely because of the fillip given to it by their temporary removal, but the commercial car industry has never been protected, and in consequence it is one of the foremost and most flourishing of our newer industries. All over the world the British commercial car is known for the excellence of its design, combined with economy of running and cheapness of price. Because of these ridiculous McKenna Duties we cannot sell our light motor cars in the Colonies. The great complaint is that in the Colonies the British manufacturers are being ousted by American and French manufacturers. Particularly is that the case in Australia, but our commercial vehicles have always held their own, and the commercial vehicle manufacturer is doing a splendid export business. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not satisfied. He wants to hamper this important branch of British industry, and what is the reason given for doing so? The reason is that it is inconvenient for the harassed and overworked Customs officials to tell the difference between a Citroen car, a Ford touring car, and a motor lorry. It is said that they are unable to tell the difference.

The hon. and gallant Baronet says "Nonsense," but that is what we are told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to put a duty on the motor car itself, that is on the engine and the chassis, because the Customs officials find it inconvenient to tell the difference between various motor cars. The fact of the matter is that this duty is put on in contravention of a solemn pledge given by the Prime Minister at the General Election that he would not introduce a system of a general tariff. But he is being driven by hon. Members like the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft), who is one of the leaders of this movement, and whose persistency and eloquence I know from many years' experience in this House. This feeble excuse of the unfortunate Customs officials is being taken advantage of by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a most dishonest manner—I do not say that offensively—in order to justify the introduction of a new tariff which is not asked for, which is not required, and which will do injury to all industries of this country which use commercial vehicles in their business. It will injure the users of wool, which is now brought by road, and it is going to hit the brewers—a rather interesting topic to hon. Members opposite—who are giving up using horses for the hauling of their casks of ale and are doing it now by motor lorries. It will hit all industries in this country which rely on cheap motor haulage.

It will be very oppressive on the poor farmers, the friends of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are now struggling against foreign competition in spite of all that the Minister for Agriculture can do to help them in forbidding the import of foreign meat. These poor struggling farmers, who are unable to pay their taxes, who are ruined and bankrupt, are going to be still further hampered in their efforts by having their commercial vehicles raised in price. And our export trade on which we largely depend is bound to be hit. The industries of this country have been built up because they have been exposed to the blasts of foreign competition. Remove this helpful foreign competition, wrap this industry in cotton wool, and it will languish like all other industries have done under the blighting influence of tariffs. For these reasons we propose to divide the House against this further iniquitous and dishonest inroad on the edifice of Free Trade which has made this country what it is.

Whatever may have been the reasons which induced the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in this particular duty, I most heartily congratulate him upon doing so. I am convinced that it will have the effect of reducing the price of our commercial motor vehicles. It will have exactly the contrary effect to that indicated by the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down. I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would not develop this duty a little further and include in his next year's Budget motor tyres and other accessories of motor cars? As far as this country is concerned, it is of the greatest possible advantage to develop our export trade, and from the technical and manufacturing point of view there is no course the Government can take which will assist our export trade more than by imposing a protective tariff on imports into this country. Many hon. Members who have experience of manufacture on mass production principles realise that the sole criterion of the actual price of a vehicle depends upon, the output, and on the output only. So far as wages are concerned, the actual wages have little effect if the output is sufficiently great. That point has been proved, not only in America, but in this country, where the light motor car has been produced on mass production principles. I believe Mr. Morris pays his men up to £9 per week, but he is also able to sell his motor cars cheaper than his competitors. He is able to do so because of his output.

I submit to the consideration of hon. Members opposite that, if other countries protect their own manufacturers, it is' necessary for us to do the same. To start any fresh or new type of machine which we may desire to put on the market, it is necessary, in order to obtain a large output- in the initial stages, that there should be a closed market for the article, in which the manufacturer can operate, and, as soon as he has passed that initial stage, he can go on to the stage when he can compete with the foreign manufacturers and engage in export trade. The fact that he is able to do that has been due largely to his ability in the initial stages, and these initial stages are helped enormously by a protective tariff. I know it is said that it restricts the field of competition and increases prices, but I suggest to hon. Members of the Liberal and Labour parties that where modern technical science is developing this method of mass production with almost semi-skilled and unskilled labour, because of the high development of the new automatic machinery, that it is to the absolute advantage of any country to have a protective tariff on such articles. It is only by that means that you are able to produce at a cheaper rate. So far as motor cars are concerned, the commercial vehicles are much more important to industry as a whole than the lighter cars, and the step the Chancellor of the Exchequer is taking is important, because it will enable the manufacturers of commercial vehicles to reduce their prices, and by doing so they will still further stimulate road transport in this country.

I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make an investigation of motor tyre companies, and find out whether, if a duty of this character is put on imported tyres, the result would not be the same, and that as a result of their inclusion in next year's Budget we shall have a still lower price for motor tyres. A further result must be, if there is a decrease in the cost of the manufacture of these mass production articles, that we shall be able to expand our export trade, still further develop our manufactures in this country, and also reduce our prices. I would suggest to hon. Members opposite that they should study the export of the articles produced by mass production, and separate them from those produced more or less by hand labour. The result will be surprising. I believe we shall be able to compete with the American motor cars in India, Burma, Australia, and countries like that—

Is the hon. and gallant Member not aware that in the case of these heavy commercial vehicles, the whole point is that they must be hand built.

I am sorry to disagree with the hon. and gallant Member, because there is no difference between hand-built machines and mass-production machines other than the spending of some hundreds and thousands of pounds on the jigs, fixtures and gauges which it is necessary to lay down, and which can only be paid for if the output is sufficiently great to justify the expenditure. If the hon. and gallant Member believes there is anything in the point he has just raised, I would ask him to confer with some manufacturers who can give him definite information, and I believe he will find they will confirm what I have said. There are other fittings and accessories besides tyres which the Chancellor of the Exchequer may include in a further duty, and I only rose this afternoon in order to ask him to have an investigation carried out into these matters and see if the contention I have raised is not borne out by the experience not only in this country, but in America.

I should regret if the Committee were on this modest proposition to include the commercial car in the ambit of the McKenna Duties to plunge into a general argument upon the merits or demerits of Free Trade and Protection.

I had already come to that conclusion, but the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) veered back to motor cars at the right moment before I intervened.

I am going to veer back from that topic, Mr. Hope, without trespassing even so far upon it as the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge. There is no ground whatever for en- deavouring to have a Debate on the fiscal controversy on this proposal. It may be that very considerable advantage would be given by the duty suggested to the producers in the industry affected. It is very likely that the producer will gain an. advantage from the imposition of this duty, but that does not raise any controversy as between Free Trade and Protection, because it is obvious that if a few industries are selected out of all the industries of the country, and for various reasons are given this advantage, that they get the advantage of a protective tariff on their own production and do not get any of the other disadvantages or conditions which would arise if Protection was extended to every other conceivable article, including, of course, agriculture in all its branches.

The point that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is raising does not meet the point I raised at all. He says that if the tariff is put on the selected industry will have the benefit. The point I put forward is this, that in order to reduce prices, and at the same time to develop any industry capable of development upon mass-production lines, we should give the industry a closed market in the initial stages in order that it could develop. There is a great distinction between normal manufactures and those capable of being produced on mass-production lines, and it is only to obtain the market in these cases; and I do not suggest that a closed market should be given if the industry is not capable of intense mass production.

But whether my hon. Friend makes his observations general to the whole field of taxation, or whether he limits them to that section of the field of taxation which concerns articles which are capable of mass production, it makes no difference to the general observation that I made, which is that the issue of Free Trade and Protection is not involved, even in the statement that the producers will benefit by these taxes, as I think they will. Now I come to the consumer. Will the consumer suffer? To what extent will he suffer? I am not going to pretend that putting a tax on a commodity is going; to be advantageous. I regard all taxation as a misfortune. I wish it were in my power to abolish all taxation. But I see no immediate prospect of that so far. But will there be any practical injury inflicted upon the trade of the country by this tax? I do not think that there will. The motor-car associations, bodies which represent the users of motor cars, commercial and otherwise, have made no sort of protest. On the contrary I have received deputations on which representatives of the users have said that they are making no opposition to this particular proposal.

If we look at the effect of the McKenna Duties, which we reimposed last year, upon the motor-car trade, it is quite clear that there has not been that rise in price which would be the necessary foundation for all the arguments which are used about the hardship to the farmer, the difficulty of carrying wool from the ports, and the troubles of the brewer, which last was the one sympathetic representation from the hardhearted Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). None of these serious arguments about the general injury to the trade of the country can have any real substance or foundation, except upon the assumption that either we shall be compelled to use inferior articles as a result of this proposal, or that the price to the consumer will be raised. I believe that in the present state of the motor-car trade, this extending trade with its ever-improved methods of production, there will not be an increase in the cost of commercial motor cars to the home consumer as a result of the imposition of this tax. We believe, on the study of this particular trade, that the competition inside the trade is sufficiently active, and the whole tendency of motor production to greater efficiency is sufficiently pronounced, to safeguard the consumer from the probability of a rise in the cost.

As for the quality, we have had from the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull one of the most enthusiastic and glowing tributes to the efficiency of the British commercial car production that has ever been paid to any industry within my recollection in recent times in this House. These excellent commercial vehicles, which the hon. and gallant Member has described as not only holding their own, with perfect security, in the home market, but as making their way on their own unprotected and unfavoured merits to the most remote portions of the world—these excellent vehicles will in the future, as in the past, be wholly available and at the disposal of the British public, of the farmer and the brewer and the wool merchant, for all their purposes. I believe that they will be available at prices which will compare not unfavourably, and probably favourably, with those which exist now. That also is a statement which does not, in my view, raise the controversies connected with the fiscal question, which you, Mr. Chairman, have rightly ruled as inappropriate to this part of our discussion.

It may well be that the imposition of this tax, having regard to the increasing efficiency of production in the trade, having regard to the general state of trade, and the general increase in the use of cars, and the consequent tendency to cheapen prices—it may well be that the imposition of this tax will be attended by a reduction in the cost. It will not follow that we could generalise for the whole area of imported commodities. But there is a final reason why I think the Committee will be well advised not to plunge into a fiscal discussion on this subject. No question of according Protection influenced me in coming to a decision in favour of this tax. On the introduction of the Budget I gave the reasons which actuated me. They were not, as an hon. Gentleman opposite suggested, confined to a desire to simplify the work of the Custom House officers. It is quite true that great inconvenience, unnecessary inconvenience and friction have arisen through the maintenance of the exemption in regard to commercial cars and their accessories and spare parts. I pointed out how in every motor shop and every motor car works throughout the country, there had been established a sort of bonded enclave, in which the freely imported commercial vehicles and their spare parts had to be kept separate from the great mass of motor car products which are subject to a 33¾ per cent. ad valorem duty.

This is a great inconvenience which anyone can see, an inconvenience leading to waste and expense on the part both of manufacturers and of purveyors of motor cars, an inconvenience which has thrown an unnecessary burden upon the Custom House officials. These commercial motor cars which come in free, when they have come in have to be traced and kept in touch with, and followed up in their movements about the country, because a great many of them are capable of being converted from one use to the other. If a commercial motor car came in free under the present law, before the introduction of the Budget it might easily, by altering the body, have been converted into a pleasure vehicle. The line of division between the commercial and the noncommercial has steadily come to be more and more smoothed away, and even obliterated in many cases. That is still more the case when you leave the actual vehicle and pass to the spare parts and accessories of all kinds. In the case of these there is no line of demarcation.

What we have been doing in making this exception is to keep alive a very costly, vexatious, purposeless and inconvenient system. As I said when opening the Budget, it is very rarely that you can impose a Customs duty which has the effect of diminishing the amount of labour to the Customs. That will certainly be the result of removing this exception, and of adding commercial cars to the general list of vehicles comprised under the McKenna Duties. But while that is a reason which I am sure is good and sound in itself and would commend itself to the good sense of the House and the country, it is not my only reason. I have another reason. The imposition of this tax and the removal of this exemption, while in my belief it will not injure the general trade of the country, and while it will simplify the work of the Custom House, will also bring in a revenue of £300,000 in the present year and of £350,000 in the next year.

The importer will pay it; he will undoubtedly pay the tax on the foreign cars which he may choose, for various reasons, to import. But if the general efficiency of the British motor trade increases in the meanwhile, as it has been increasing, it does not follow that any corresponding burden will fall on the general consumer of the country. It might be argued that if no tax were imposed there would be an accelerated process of cheapening. But it is not proved; it is possible, but not proved. Whatever may be the rights and wrongs of the fiscal question, I rest myself exclusively upon the two main reasons, of simplification in the work of collection and of the valuable increased revenue which is achieved.

The Amendment before the Committee has been debated for some time without, as far as I can recollect, any Member on either side of the House, including the Mover and Seconder, saying a single word in regard to it. The Amendment, with its consequential Amendment, without which it is meaningless, seeks to say, if I understand it, that this Duty should not be imposed until after there has been an inquiry under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. We cannot accept that Amendment because, as I said on introducing the Budget, there is no reason to believe that there is any case which can be submitted to the Safeguarding of Industries tribunal. The commercial motor-car industry in this country is not suffering from acute foreign competition. It is maintaining itself satisfactorily. It holds nine-tenths of the home market, and it is conducting an active and increasing export trade. Therefore, there is absolutely no case for submitting such a proposal to the Safeguarding of Industries tribunal. If it were so submitted it would certainly be rejected by the tribunal as not coming within the ambit of the conditions laid down in the White Paper governing such inquiries. The Amendment, if carried, would have the effect of destroying the tax and of leaving us in the position where the present inconvenience would be un-remedied, and where the revenue which we hope to obtain from the tax would be lost. Therefore, I am not able to accept the proposal. I trust that what I have said on the general subject may have the effect of convincing hon. Gentlemen that the Measure which we propose is self-contained and desirable in itself, and does not raise, except in the minds of persons who are over-thirsty for controversy, any issue which touches the general question.

I am sure I express an opinion which is felt in all parts of the Committee when I say that we regret the absence from these Debates of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond). I have taken what steps I could to communicate with him this morning to inform him that I proposed publicly to call attention to the great loss which the Debate would sustain by the absence of his advice and counsel. There is no man who has examined these McKenna Duties from so many points of view, or so impartially, as the right hon. Gentleman. He denounced them when they were first introduced. He was a Member of a Government which constantly reimposed them but, as he explained to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when a very heated interchange took place last year, although he was a Member of that Government he sedulously avoided voting for them. Then, last year, one of the most eloquent of many eloquent speeches from these benches was made by the right hon. Gentleman when he denounced anew these duties as being absolutely indefensible. Now I trust in the Division Lobby he is going to show greater fidelity than he showed as a Cabinet Minister by supporting his new leaders in this proposal. I only hope that before the Debate concludes he can—

I cannot help thinking that this is an example of what is known as "tacking."

I was going to show that the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman would be a very important factor in enabling those of us who have to vote on this matter, to make up our minds, but I certainly shall not pursue the subject which appears to be leading me out of Order. The fact of the matter is that in the whole of the argument in connection with the motor-car trade, we must keep in view the fact that it is a great and growing industry. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a duty can only be one of the considerations affecting price. In the United States it is stated there will be 20,000,000 motor cars this year. We have not reached anything like that standard of motorcar saturation in this country, but the fact that it is a great and growing industry must always be taken into account in any argument as to the effect of a duty.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer avoided the fiscal issue and said that there were two grounds on which he imposed this duty. The first was the ground of finance. As has been said already, it is the first time in the history of this Parliament that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had to admit that a problem of this kind baffles his officers. He imposed a series of duties, and when we inquired whether they would not involve some increase in staff or in the cost of collection, he stoutly denied that the least additional difficulty would be caused by these new duties. The complications of the Silk Duty—which has to be again amended this year—presented no difficulty to him and yet he says the differentiation between a commercial motor car and its parts and a private motor car and its parts is too hard for the officers of his Department. I am told by people who import these goods that in the case of the complete lorry or vehicle the distinction is obvious and the duty is not paid, but in the case of parts, it is the custom of the importer to pay the duty and very often not even to seek to recover it, so great are the difficulties in connection therewith. If it be true that a duty is already paid on parts imported for use in connection with commercial vehicles, it is quite obvious that the increase in revenue, for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer looks from the taxation of parts, will not materialise. If the right hon. Gentleman wants revenue, why does he not put a corresponding duty on the internal production If he does not want to have any element of Protection in the scheme, why not put an Excise duty on corresponding—

But the same duty is levied on a car which has paid import duty, as on a car which has not paid import duty, and so there is nothing in that reply. The Chancellor of the Exchequer uses the revenue argument as all Chancellors of the Exchequer use it when they do not know which way to turn on the fiscal issue. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney)— who holds a particular theory on this matter—put a point to the right hon. Gentleman which the right hon. Gentleman declined to answer, but the right hon. Gentleman is going to get support from the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge because the hon. and gallant Member thinks that this duty will give a close market for the time being and so reduce prices. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants revenue. If you have a close market, you cannot look to get revenue. Someone has yet to answer for the Government side whether they are supporting this duty on the grounds that it is closing the market and thereby reducing the price—according to the Protectionist theory—or whether they are doing so in order to secure revenue.

I do not know whether hon. Members realise what is our case as regards the broken pledge. We have not said that a single tax upon a commercial motor or even taxes upon motors and gloves and many other things, in themselves constitute a general tariff. What we have said is that a very specific pledge was given by the Unionist party, in their Election manifesto and by the Prime Minister, in speeches in this House and elsewhere to this effect, that no duty would be imposed unless the industry concerned was able to satisfy certain conditions. This industry in fact applied to the Government in the autumn of last year for an inquiry under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. An inquiry was refused because in the view of the Government—confirmed by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day —the conditions would never have been satisfied by the industry. Therefore, we say that to introduce a duty now, when it is openly stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no case can be made out for the satisfaction of the conditions indicated in the Prime Minister's pledge, involves a breach of the Prime Minister's pledge. The Chancellor of the Exchequer when he reintroduced the duties on pleasure cars last year told us they were only annual duties, implying that we should have the opportunity of revising them year by year; but he has put them in the Bill in such a form as to make it almost impossible for members of the Opposition to move in any year for the removal of the duties. They are permanent.

At every stage new duties are being introduced. A tariff is being built up, and the conditions on which the Government promised the duties would alone operate, namely, that a certain state of affairs had to exist, as proved in public, have been wiped aside. On those grounds, we allege that this duty, though small in itself and only raising £300,000, is an infringement of the pledge. To the extent to which money is raised from it, it is a tax upon transport. If there is one argument more than another which has been brought home to our minds by recent events it is that transport is the vital industry of all vital industries. In imposing a new duty on transport, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is imposing a duty on the needs of all commercial and private interests. Unless some stronger case can be made out for the duty, I think hon. Members in all parts of the Committee would be well advised to support the Amendment.

The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) will forgive me if I do not accept his invitation to follow him in his argument. I think he has been so demolished by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) that there is very little left for me to say. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green told us about all the people in this country who used these commercial motors, but then the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull rose and explained that the British commercial car was much better than anything else and that we need not worry about its efficiency. I think we can leave the hon. Member for Bethnal Green there. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the official Opposition seemed to lag a long way behind his colleagues. He did not press upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total prohibition of imported commercial cars and I am very grateful for that. I cannot go so far as those of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues who advocate the prohibition of imported articles of every description, but there is one thing quite clear. Whatever may be the motives of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and I think his reasons are very obvious and from his point of view the simplification of the machinery of the Customs is important— the fact remains that this proposal will have wider effects. For that reason I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

In the first place one effect of his proposal will be to correct the evil of sweated labour in this country. If we can give the same security to the commercial cars of this country as we gave to the light vehicles, we are going to do more to correct low wages and raise the standard of the workers, than we can do by any other method. Secondly, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is expecting to get some £300,000 of revenue. Hon. Members opposite will agree that with the tremendous burdens which are in prospect for British industry, in the near future, as the result of present disturbances, we shall want every penny of revenue we can raise and if we can raise it in this way, without affecting our own people, it must be desirable to do so. As to the third effect the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull amazed the House by stating that the result of the McKenna Duties had been to affect the export of light cars. I cannot go into details on this question without being out of order, but I ask the hon. and gallant Member to realise that in the last eight or nine months we have exported more cars to the Dominions and Colonies than, I think, ever before in our history, and that process will continue. His fears, and the fears of his colleagues are quite groundless. Every speech made by the attenuated party on those benches last year, every prophecy made by those who are shadows even in their "Shadow Cabinet" told us we were going to depress our export trade as a result of these duties. I am glad to say that the reverse has happened. We have got our revenue and at the same time increased our export trade and our prices have not risen but have actually decreased.

The hon. and gallant Member is a great prophet, but the Committee will realise that the types of car which we have exported are just those which have gone ahead as a result of the former McKenna Duties and their reimposition last year. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn), whom I am glad to see back in his place, has after all paid a remarkable tribute to the Protectionist policy, as he told us that in the United States of America there are 20,000,000 cars. That has been built up under a very similar policy to that which is being proposed by the Government to-day. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is extremely worried, as I expect are the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, together with the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), who is one of the few remaining Free Traders in the Socialist party opposite as to how we can get it both ways. The question was directed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer just now: How are you going to get your revenue if you are going to exclude the cars? It will be the same as in the case of the other cars. We get the revenue in excluding part of the importation of the cars, and we get the advantage both ways. I think the same will happen in this country as has happened in every other country in the world in this respect. There is one other point that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith made. His colleagues asked a question as to who is going to pay the duty. Here, once more we have the proof of the fresh mind that has come back among us, for the hon. and gallant Member for Leith told us that ha has made inquiries of importers in regard to this question, and the importers have told him that on the parts that will be coming in they have arranged to pay the duty. I do not think I need say anything more.

With one remark that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) made, I agree, and that was when he deplored the absence of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George).

I thought the hon. and gallant Member said Carnarvon. I should have liked the right hon. Member for Carnarvon to have been here, because this commercial car industry showed itself above all other industries to be, a key industry in the late strike, and the right hon. Member for Carnarvon said, in his famous letter to Mr. Bonar Law at the General Election of 1918, that the key industries of the country must be safeguarded. Well, I believe this duty will safeguard this industry, which was abominably treated after the War.

The key industries referred to were key industries required in warfare, not in civil warfare.

The strike was internal warfare. The commercial car industry was turned on by compulsion during the War by the Government to other work, and surely it ought to have been reinstated and not put at the mercy of foreign competition. Every one of the firms in that industry practically was turned on to making shells and other things. Before that they used to export to every market in the world, and the United States of America, in consequence of the War, captured those markets. Everybody knows, and the Free Traders who have come over to us have said, that to maintain the home market is a prime necessity in order to get the export markets, that if you do not maintain the home market you lose the export market. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Lieut. Commander Burney) seemed inclined to press the Chancellor of the Exchequer to become a whole hogger at once, but I am prepared to accept instalments like these, each of which will teach the country what he wishes to teach the country of the advantages of mass production. It has taught commercial users of the cars, so that there is no protest now against a tax on commercial cars on the part of the users of those cars, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out. Compare that with 10 years ago. If anybody, 10 years ago, had produced a proposal to tax commercial cars, the commercial car users would all have been up in arms, but they have been educated by mass production. The Chancellor of the Exchequer based his case mainly on producing revenue and also on the simplification of the tax. Every single spare part, and every commercial car which was going to be converted to a private car, and was, therefore, the subject of tax reimbursement, had to be followed up. Every one of the manufacturers was subjected to huge clerical expenses in order to show whether the part he was using would be applied to a commercial or a private car, and in addition chars-a-bane came under the tax, yet the chassis of a char-a-banc is exactly the same as the chassis of a commercial car. That absurdity will now be rectified.

There is one point which I wish to put before the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in the temporary absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that is this: We know that under this tax the Canadian products will come in under terms, provided there is 25 per cent. of Canadian labour and materials in it. We know perfectly well what happens at Detroit. They put up works on the other side of the frontier, and they bring together the American parts, and any clever accountant could cook the accounts so as to produce nominally a 25 per cent. Canadian car. I plead with the right hon. Gentleman that the preference should only be given where there is 50 per cent, of the national product, which is what is done in Australia and New Zealand. If I had my way it would be 75 per cent. This is doing for the commercial cars what was done for the hop growers. The hop growers were protected because they diverted the whole of their industry to another product. The commercial car manufacturers in the War diverted the whole of their industry to making war materials, while we imported commercial cars. They have had no chance of reinstatement, and I beg hon. Members opposite to look back at the history of what has happened.

These commercial cars experienced the full force of the dump in 1920. It is true, as free importers contend, that at that time our car makers were fully employed. There were more men employed probably than in 1919, but why? Simply because they were working off their contracts. When the full force of the dump was experienced, in 1921, 1922 and 1923–1922 and 1923 were the worst years—we were ing, it had multiplied 10 times to 16,250 commercial cars imported into this country. The result was the unemployment which followed in the succeeding year.

The United States had taken measures to protect themselves through the Fordney Tariff, so that the one dumping ground throughout the world for Germans or anybody else was in the free import market of Great Britain, and the result was that 12 of the chief firms lost £2,500,000 and five firms went out of the business altogether. The result of this smashing blow was that the Americans captured the export market altogether. We are beginning to revive, but we would go ahead by leaps and bounds, and the test of this tax will be that when we meet the House next year with the Budget we shall be able to show exactly the same thing, namely, that employment has gone up, that the product has gone up, and that the car has not been made more expensive in any way, just as was the case with the ordinary motor cars. The danger is very great that the Americans are now reaching the saturation point. America produces 11 times as many commercial cars as we do, but only exports one in 14. The day they reach the saturation point they will dump their commercial cars in this country, and I believe that that day is very near indeed. I thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government for what they are doing in this matter.

It is not altogether surprising that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has absented himself for a time from the Committee, because, if he were here, he would probably be uttering a prayer to be saved from his friends. Though he himself takes a line which is professedly a Free Trade line, all his supporters who have spoken have defended this proposal on the lines purely of Protection. If the case be as his hon. Friends have put it, then, indeed, this is contrary to the whole professed policy of the Government. It has been pointed out already that we were told explicitly that there was, first of all, not to be a general tariff, and, secondly, there was only to be such safeguarding as was justified on certain lines. To that was subsequently added that the old McKenna Duties could be revived. Hon. Members opposite say they welcome this as an instalment of Protection. If that be the case, that is explicitly and definitely a breach of the pledges that were given, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not defend it on those lines. He puts it forward as a very small thing for a certain specific purpose, and he argues that probably we shall not see a rise in the price of the commercial motor car in consequence of this tax. As a reason for taking that view, he quotes the illustration of the luxury cars, the private cars, which, so far from going up in price, have gone down, and hon. Members opposite, with great glee, quote that fact in proof of their view that protective taxes do not put up prices.

What is really the answer to that? The answer is that no one ever said that the effect of protective taxes is to put up prices. What they do say is that they have a tendency to put up prices. These are the facts: There are two grounds why, of course, the prices of cars have come down instead of going up. In the first place, we are living in a period of rapidly falling prices. The general level of prices has fallen during the last 12 months no less than 13 per cent. In addition to that, the car industry and the artificial silk industry are cases of industries that are rapidly expanding in all parts of the world. Cars and artificial silk are being produced on a larger and larger scale, and in the present condition of those industries all over the world their products are rapidly falling in price. It is perfectly clear to anybody who thinks about it at all that a tax which is going to bring in a few hundred thousand pounds only is not going to be much of an offset against these big world tendencies, but it is going to be some offset, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself knows it and admits it, and our case against the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that this tax, like all protective taxes, is going to have a tendency to increase prices. If for other reasons prices would remain constant, it would have the effect of raising prices, and if for other reasons prices would come down, then it would intercept a considerable part of those falling prices. I note that the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) opposite seems to agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was very careful to say that the thing was problematical.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer admits it in regard to artificial silk, and I understand him to admit it in regard to motor cars. I submit it is a very serious action which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken. In regard to artificial silk and motor cars, so intercepting the fall in prices which would result from the expansion of these industries. That is a new method to adopt in these protective proposals in order to evade opposition. The right hon. Gentleman wishes to be able a year afterwards to discount the opposition to the duties by choosing such industries as are expanding. He chose the time when there has been a fall in general prices, and then he points out that prices have not risen. I venture to suggest that that is one of the most injurious things that could be done to the trade of the country at the present time. In order that every effort should be made to enable the trade to take its place again it is essential that overhead charges should be reduced, so that our manufacturers can turn out articles and be prepared to sell them at the world price. They cannot do that if the overhead charges are kept up, and if the cost of living is kept up. By what the Chancellor of the Exchequer did last year he intercepted the large fall in the cost of living in the matter of artificial silk. In this matter of motor cars, though he does it on a comparatively small scale, which we all realise, yet in so far he is intercepting the fall in prices.

I do not intend to deal with the figures which have been put forward on the opposite side. The arguments for free trade as against protection seem to be in such a poor way that I do not propose to refer to them. I have only risen to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a question in regard to the declarations which are made at the Customs dealing with not only commercial cars but with pleasure cars as well. I understand it is the policy of the people who import cars, on declaration, in giving the price, not to give the price at which the cars are sold in this country, but the cost to the manufacturer in the country from which they are imported. If I may give my right hon. Friend an example, there is the Lancia car, a car which is used very largely in this country. It is sold at something like £600; yet I am told that that car only pays a tax on £150, which is the cost of making it in Italy. Therefore, the importer only pays a tax of £20 instead of a tax of something like £200. That is a very important point, and one which should be investigated very closely by the Customs Authorities. I believe there is a very large revenue being lost in this connection. I do not know whether it might not be necessary to have some Amendment put forward on the question in order to deal with it. I do not know what authority my right hon. Friend has in dealing with it, but I beg him to consider this important point. I put it to him that between now and the Report stage of the Bill the matter might be gone into in order to deal with it. It will not only have the effect of protection, if I may say so, but will also have the effect of producing revenue for the Exchequer. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider the point between now and the Report stage. If so, I should be very much obliged to him.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down appears to me to make a very serious allegation in suggesting what is in effect a fraudulent invoice, and I think that we ought to have some explanation from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

I have endeavoured to make my point clear. I think another point is raised here, in the large profits which are made by the importers of cars into this country. The public are not getting the benefit that they ought to have. I have many times raised this particular point in the House: as to where there is a depreciated exchequer it is not the public that gets the benefit, but the middleman who pockets it.

It would be a very great advantage to the Treasury if they could get from the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) a more detailed statement of what it is he proposes. I understand the import duty is charged on the invoice price of the goods imported. He is not satisfied with that. He simply complains that the price of the article as imported is not the price at which the import duty should be charged. Does he suggest that the price at which the article is ultimately sold should be the price upon which the duty is paid? Such a suggestion, if carried out, might make great changes in our fiscal system.

May I be allowed to say that my point is that in the difference between £120 and £600 there ought to be some means of the Treasury getting hold of it.

But has not the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues over and over again made the point that the tax would not put up the price of the article to the consumer?

Question put, "That the word 'The' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 114.

Division No. 238.]

AYES.

[6.23 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Holt, Captain H. P.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Albery, Irving James

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Cunllffe, Sir Herbert

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hume, Sir G. H.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Astor, Viscountess

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Atholl, Duchess of

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Atkinson, C.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Jacob, A. E.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Balniel, Lord

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Jephcott, A. R.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Benn, sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Berry, Sir George

Ellis, R. G.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Betterton, Henry B.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lamb, J. O.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Blundell, F. N.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fermoy, Lord

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Flelden, E. B.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Finburgh, S.

Loder, J. de V.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Ford, Sir P. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Lord, Walter Greaves

Briscoe, Richard George

Foster Sir Harry S

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Brittain, Sir Harry

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Freemantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lumley, L. R.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Galbraith J F W

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

Ganzonl, Sir John

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gates, Percy

Macdonald, R (Glasgow, cathcart)

Bullock, Captain M.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Burman, J. B.

Gower, Sir Robert

McLean, Major A.

Burney. Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Grace, John

Macmillan, Captain H.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Grant, J. A

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Butt, Sir Alfred

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Grotrlan, H. Brent

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Caine, Gordon Hall

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Malone, Major P. B.

Campbell, E. T.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Margesson, Capt. D

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hanbury, C.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hartington, Marquess of

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Christie, J. A.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hawke, John Anthony

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Clarry, Reginald George

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Murchison, C. K.

Clayton, G. C.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hills, Major John Waller

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'Id.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Nuttall, Ellis

Cope, Major William

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Oakley, T.

Couper, J. B.

Holland, Sir Arthur

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Rye, F. G.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Penny, Frederick George

Salmon, Major I.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Perring, Sir William George

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Sandon, Lord

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Pitcher, G.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Savery, S. S.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Preston, William

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Wells, S. R.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Unlv. Belfst.)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Ramsden, E.

Skelton, A. N.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Somerville, A. A. (Wirdsor)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Remer, J. R.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Winterton. Rt. Hon. Eart

Remnant, Sir James

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Rentoul, G. S.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Withers, John James

Rhys. Hon. C. A. U.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Womersley, W. J.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.

Ropner, Major L.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Major Sir Harry Barnston and Major Hennessy.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Grundy, T. W.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Alexander, A. v. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

Ammon, Charles George

Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Scrymgeour, E.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hardie, George D.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Harney, E. A.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Barnes. A.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Barr, J.

Hayes, John Henry

Sitch, Charles H.

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Siesser, Sir Henry H.

Beckett. John (Gateshead)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Broad; F. A.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Snell, Harry

Bromley, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Buchanan, G.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles.

Clowes, S.

john, William (Rhondda, West)

Stamford, T. W.

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stephen, Campbell

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Connolly, M.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sutton, J. E.

Cove, W. G.

Kelly, W. T.

Taylor, R. A.

Dalton, Hugh

Kennedy, T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dennison, R

Kenyon Barnet

Thurtle, E.

Duncan, C.

Lawrence, Susan

Tinker, John Joseph

Dunnico, H.

Lawson, John James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lowth, T.

Viant, S. P.

Forrest, W.

Lunn, William

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Gardner, J. P.

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Mackinder, W.

Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

March, S.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Gillett, George M.

Montague, Frederick

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Gosling, Harry

Morris, R. H.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenall, T.

Murnin, H.

Wright, W.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and colne)

Naylor, T. E.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Oliver, George Harold

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Paling, W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Groves, T.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Mr. Percy Harris and Mr. MacKenzie Livingstone.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 22, to leave out the words "first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-six," and to insert instead thereof the words "first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven."

In moving this Amendment on behalf of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) I think I can show that there are substantial reasons why the date we propose should be substituted for that in the Bill. The Amendment proposes that the date on which this new duty should come into force should be the 1st January, 1927, instead of the 1st May this year. For years importers of commercial vehicles have been given to understand that whether the McKenna Duties were on or off commercial vehicles would not be taxed, the commercial vehicles not being a luxury. It is not fair to these men, therefore, to give them only four days' notice before clapping on new duties. I was sorry not to be able to reply to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) a few minutes ago. I would dearly love to have answered his speech, but I had already spoken in the Debate. He seems to regard the importer who has the effrontery to make a profit by importing goods into this country as a sort of criminal—a wicked person who for some unknown reason dares to bring foreign commercial vehicles into this country and make a profit, the scoundrel! That is the sort of argument we get from the more rabid of the Tariff Reformers. These importers are engaged in a perfectly legitimate trade, and may have entered into commitments totalling hundreds of thousands of pounds, and it is not fair for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at half-past 5 or 6 o'clock on the 26th April, to announce in his off-hand way that in order not to inconvenience the Customs officials, this duty on commercial vehicles will come into force four days later. The importers read of it only next morning in their newspapers, and that means that they have only three days in which to cancel contracts already made, and to deal with shipments of cars which may be already at sea on the way to this country. To proceed in that way is to treat these importers very harshly; they ought to be given to the 1st January next. Hon. Members who are in business know that such a period will not be too long for them practically to recast the whole of their trade.

I know perfectly well what argument will be put forward from the other side. The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will say, "Oh, yes; but when we reimposed the McKenna Duties we gave a certain notice and cars were rushed in to avoid the duty." That is as may be; but it means that we get a certain stock of cars into the country cheaply, and, in the long run, we do not lose very much revenue. We must expect some increase in imports before a duty comes into operation. There is a certain responsibility to men who are engaged in a legitimate trade, paying their taxes and employing people. They have a right to some consideration, even if there be some slight loss to the revenue, and, at any rate, we get an accumulation of cheap cars inside the country. If we put on a tariff suddenly we must expect certain disadvantages. We must expect that advantage will be taken of the decent interval to import an excessive number of goods. We must expect that. Presumably the Government hope to remain in office for at least three years longer, and, therefore, they will have three years in which to reap the benefit of this tariff. At the end of those three years, when they are swept out by their disillusioned and furious lieges, we will lose no time in repealing this duty, none whatever. It is little short of outrageous to give only four days' notice before introducing an entirely novel and unexpected tariff on these goods. They are expensive goods, and that means that a great deal of capital has been locked up in them, or credits provided for; and, therefore, there will be special loss through this sudden dislocation caused by the rush tactics of the Government.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) says that when a duty is imposed some inconvenience or disadvantage is unavoidable. I think the result of his Amendment would be that we should suffer every possible inconvenience. We should not only lose the revenue which it is expected to obtain during the present year, but probably, owing to forestalling, a very large part of the revenue which otherwise we might receive next year; and therefore there would be a loss of two years' revenue. In addition to that we should be prolonging until January, for no reason whatever, the extraordinary inconvenience and difficulty of the present mode of collection. Therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment.

I am very glad to hear that the Government will not accept this Amendment. Being a convinced Protectionist, I think it is a bad thing to leave off a duty which ought to be imposed, but it is a far worse thing to give long notice of an intention to impose a duty, and thus provide an opportunity for a large influx of the goods which it is pro- posed to tax, to the considerable prejudice of those engaged in their manufacture in this country. It may interest the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and the Committee to know that a firm who are one of the largest makers of these vehicles are extending their factories on the strength of orders they already anticipate as a result of this decision of the Government, and if at this stage we alter the date at which the duty will become operative the whole of that extension scheme', which will provide new employment in this country, will immediately be thrown overboard. That same firm tell me that when the announcement of this duty was made they received hundreds of applications from motor-vehicle agents all over the country who up to the present have been selling imported vehicles for concessions to sell home produced vehicles—they are falling over each other to get those concessions. This duty will be an advantage to the home producer and to the home consumer, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not be induced to whittle down the proposals already made. I am only sorry that tyres have not been included in this duty.

If I may say so without offence, I do not think most of the remarks of the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) are relevant to the Amendment. He argued the general case for the duty, and put in a special plea for tyres. The object of this Amendment is to alter the date, and although we are not necessarily committed to the date mentioned in it, we do plead for reasonable notice for people who have entered into business engagements and who may be heavily penalised by the sudden imposition of this duty. Hon. Gentlemen opposite start from the datum line that it is an offence against the public, weal of this country to import articles. That is not our belief. We believe that imports and exports have built up the wealth and prosperity of this country, and all that we ask is that importers should be given reasonable notice of this new duty. The duty was proposed on the 26th April and imposed on the 1st May. That is not reasonable notice. It must not be supposed that purchasers of commercial vehicles necessarily go abroad for them because things are cheaper abroad. Sometimes goods from abroad are more suitable for their purpose; in some cases even—I have one in my minid—the goods from abroad may be much dearer. But these people wish to get the best material the world provides. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes along and says, "Four days hence anything that is imported, never mind whether it was ordered before the Budget or not, or even whether it be on the seas now, will have to pay this heavy tax." That does not assist the conduct of business and the progress of manufacture in this country. We are not arguing a case for long notice, when, it is alleged, there would be anticipatory dumping, but we ask as a reasonable business proposition that some longer notice ought to be given. This proceeding on the part of the Government will cut both ways. If we act in this way in the case of imports from the Continent, then the other countries of Europe will do the same sort of thing to us.

Exactly; and what did our Government say then? A Minister stated—I am quoting from the "Times" at the beginning of this year —that he was making official representations to the French Government, who had varied their tariff owing to the fluctuating value of the franc, pointing out to them how thoroughly unreasonable it was to impose a tariff at short notice without giving a reasonable opportunity for goods on order to be delivered. What is the use of both of us taking an unreasonable point of view. Is it not better to take reasonable action ourselves, and then we shall be in a stronger position? Therefore, I urge the right hon. Gentleman not to treat this as a delaying Amendment, or one aimed at the principle of the whole Clause, but I ask him to treat it from the point of view of business men who have contracts in being who will be heavily damnified if they are not given more than the few hours' notice which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes.

In view of the reason given by the Financial Secretary for not accepting this Amendment, it seems to me that he might just as well have accepted this Amendment, because he has based his opposition to it upon the fact that he could not afford to lose the revenue. An hon. Member opposite has told us that none of these motor-cars are going to come into the country; therefore, it cannot make any difference whether you postpone the date or not, because, according to this argument, the revenue spoken of is non-existent. The hon. Member opposite spoke about importing cars at £150 and selling them at £600—

I do not think that argument is relevant to this Amendment.

I was arguing that the Minister might just as well have

accepted this Amendment, because these cars will come in whatever duty is imposed. This duty is not going to affect the cars which have been referred to by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer). On those grounds I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer might give us the extra time provided for by this Amendment so that the trade may get some idea how they are going to be affected.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 116.

Division No. 239.]

AYES.

[6.50 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Clarry, Reginald George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Albery, Irving James

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hawke, John Anthony

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

Cooper, A. Duff

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Apsley, Lord

Cope, Major William

Herbert. S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Atholl, Duchess of

Couper, J. B.

Hills. Major John Waller

Atkinson, C.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Balniel, Lord

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Holt, Captain H. P.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Bennett, A. J.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Berry, Sir George

Dawson, Sir Philip

Hurst, Gerald B.

Betterton, Henry B.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Jacob, A. E.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Blundell, F. N.

Ellis, R. G.

Jephcott, A. R.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Everard, W. Lindsay

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Briscoe, Richard George

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Brittain, Sir Harry

Fermoy, Lord

Knox, Sir Alfred

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Fielden, E. B.

Lamb, J. Q.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R, I.

Finburgh, S.

Lane Fox. Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd, Hexham)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Looker, Herbert William

Bullock, Captain M.

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Burman, J. B.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Ganzonl, Sir John

Luce, Major Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Gates, Percy

Lumley, L. R.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Lynn, Sir Robert J.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Gower, Sir Robert

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Grace, John

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Campbell, E. T.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

McLean, Major A.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Macmillan, Captain H.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. Prtsmth. S.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hanbury, C.

Malone, Major P. B.

Christie, J. A.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Margesson, Captain D.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Harrison, G. J. C.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hartington, Marquess of

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Remnant, Sir James

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark. Lanark)

Rentoul, G. S.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Richardson Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Roberts, E H. G. (Flint)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Ropner, Major L.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Rye, F. G.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld-)

Salmon, Major I.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Nuttall, Ellis

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Warrender, sir Victor

Oakley, T.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Wells, S. R.

Penny, Frederick George

Sandon, Lord

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Savery, S. S.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Perring, Sir William George

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Skelton, A. N.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Pilditch, Sir Phillp

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Withers, John James

Preston, William

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Womersley, W. J.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Ramsden, E.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Remer, J. R.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Scrymgeour, E.

Amman, Charles George

Hardie, George D.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Harney, E. A.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Harris, Percy A.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Barnes, A.

Hayes, John Henry

Sitch, Charles H.

Barr, J.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Benn. Cantain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

Bromley, J.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Snell, Harry

Buchanan, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan. Neath)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charies

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Stephen, Campbell

Connolly, M.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cove, W. G.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Sutton, J. E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kelly, W. T.

Taylor, R. A.

Dalton, Hugh

Kennedy, T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kenyon, Barnet

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dennison, R.

Lawrence, Susan

Thurtle, E.

Duncan, C.

Lawson, John James

Tinker, John Joseph

Dunnlco, H.

Lowth, T.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Edwards. C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lunn, William

Viant, S. P.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Gardner, J. P.

Mackinder, W.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

March, S.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Morris, R. H.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gillett, George M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams. David (Swansea, East)

Gosling, Harry

Murnin, H.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenall, T.

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Paling, W.

Wright, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Groves, T.

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Grundy, T. W.

Purcell, A. A.

Sir Robert Hutchison and Lieut. Commander Kenworthy.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Motion made, and Question put; "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 252 Noes,115.

Division No. 240.]

AYES.

[7.0 p m

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Apsley, Lord

Albery, Irving James

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

Atholl, Duchess of

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Atkinson, C.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Nelson, Sir Frank

Balniel, Lord

Gates, Percy

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Gower, Sir Robert

Nuttall, Ellis

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Grace, John

Oakley, T.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon W.

Grotrlan, H. Brent

Penny, Frederick George

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Bennett, A. J.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Berry, Sir George

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Perring, Sir William George

Betterton, Henry B.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Hanbury, C.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Harrison, G. J. C.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Blundell, F. N.

Hartington, Marquess of

Preston, William

Boothby, R. J. G.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Ramsden, E.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hawke, John Anthony

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Briscoe, Richard George

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Remer, J. R.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Remnant, Sir James

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hills. Major John Waller

Rentoul, G. S.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Ropner, Major L.

Burman, J. B.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Rye, F G.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Salmon, Major I.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hudson, R. s. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hume, Sir G. H.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Caine, Gordon Hall

Hurst, Gerald B.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Campbell, E. T.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Sandon, Lord

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Savery, S. S.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Jacob, A. E.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Jephcott, A. R.

Skelton. A. N.

Christie, J. A.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newinqton)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine. C.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Clarry, Reginald George

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Knox, Sir Alfred

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Lamb, J. Q.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Lane Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Cooper, A. Duff

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Lister, Cunilffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Looker, Herbert William

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Crookshank. Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lord, Walter Greaves-

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Lumley, L. R.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

McLean, Major A.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Eden, Captain Anthony

Macmillan, Captain H.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Wells, S. R.

Ellis, R. G.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Makins, Brigadie General E.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Malone, Major P. B.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Margesson, Captain D.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fermoy, Lord

Meyer, Sir Frank

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fielden, E. B.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Withers, John James

Finburgh, S.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Womersley, W. J.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Forestler-Walker, Sir L.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Moore Sir Newton J.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Freemantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Major Cope and Major Hennessy.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hardie, George D.

Scrymgeour, E.

Ammon, Charles George

Harney, E. A.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Harris, Percy A.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hayes, John Henry

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Barnes, A.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Sitch, Charles H.

Barr, J.

Hirst, G. H.

Siesser, Sir Henry H.

Batey, Joseph

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smitn, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Bromley, J.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Snell, Harry

Buchanan, G.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Charleton, H. C.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Clowes, S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stephen, Campbell

Connolly, M.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cove, W. G.

Kelly, W. T.

Sutton, J. E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kennedy, T.

Taylor, R. A.

Dalton, Hugh

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kenyon, Barnet

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dennison, R.

Lansbury, George

Thurtie, E.

Duncan, C.

Lawrence, Susan

Tinker, John Joseph

Dunnico, H.

Lawson, John James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

Lowth, T.

V'ant, S. P.

Forrest, W.

Lunn, William

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Gardner, J. P.

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Garro-Jones, Captain G M.

Mackinder, W.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Gillett, George M.

March, S.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Gosling, Harry

Morris, R. H.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenall, T.

Murnin, H.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, George Harold

Wright, W.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Groves, T.

Ponsonby, Arthur

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Grundy, T. W.

Potts, John S.

Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton)

Purcell, A. A.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

CLAUSE 4.—(Repeal of Excise Duty in Chicory.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

This matter was skimmed over very lightly in the Budget statement, and it is not, I am quite aware, a very serious matter. The Clause repeals the excise duty on chicory. It is notable as being the one little reduction of taxation that we have had in this colossal Budget and therefore I am sure that the Financial Secretary will be able to tell us the reason for it. The mountain has been in labour and has brought forth this little mouse. Let us examine the mouse—

"As from the commencement of this Act, no duty of excise shall be chargeable on chicory."

The amount involved is only a few thousands. Presumably, the Customs Duties will be charged on chicory, and therefore this is a small measure of protection for the cultivation of this—I do not like to say weed.—plant. How is it that this Government has been the first to dis- cover it was unnecessary to levy an excise duty on chicory? What are the reasons? Who will benefit, and what will be the compensation for the loss of the few thousands of revenue by the Exchequer? I think it is worthy of a few sentences of explanation, and I invite them from the Financial Secretary.

I am glad to satisfy the curiosity of my hon. and gallant Friend. He said he was anxious to know, and that it meant only the loss of a few thousand pounds. If it were the loss of a few thousand pounds, I am not at all sure we should not have hesitated to take the step. The reason why we did not hesitate at all is because it is only a few hundred pounds and not thousands. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said it was a case of the mountain in labour having brought forth a mouse, and he wanted to know why we were doing it. The whole reason is that the mouse is not worth keeping alive, and that it costs more to keep it than it is worth. The whole of this excise revenue last year only realised £450, or not very much more, and it is obviously too trifling to be worth keeping alive at all.

Before we part from the Clause, is there any revenue from Customs, and what is the amount, and why is the Customs Duty not taken off?

It is nothing very great, even from the Customs Duty. Last year the revenue from that was £42,300, and the Excise Duty was £500.

Apparently, a good deal of chicory is imported, and there is going to be some small measure of protection given, because the amount of chicory involved —I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman will give the figures—only produced a total excise revenue of £450. I hope Parliament will be grateful. I do not know in what part of the country chicory is raised, but they are going to have the benefit— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hull and Yorkshire!"] Yorkshire, is it? The land of the East Riding of Yorkshire is excellent heavy land of the quality known as four-horse land. These Yorkshire farmers will now have the Conservative orators who will be able to go into the villages on market days and tell the farmers, when they talk it over at the market ordinary afterwards, "Now see what we have done for you, we Conservatives. We are giving you a protection in the production of chicory." I am certain as regards the farmers the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly safe now.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Amendment as to certain silk duties and drawbacks.)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 3, at the end, to insert a new Sub-section:

There is, however, one case, the case dealt with by the Amendment I am now moving, which I should like to explain to the Committee, although it is one that one can very easily imagine and understand. The object of the duties is not, of course, to put inconvenience in the way of individuals, or to hamper people coming into the country from abroad who may bring in dutiable articles in their personal baggage. When individuals who are ordinary travellers are called upon to pay when they are brought within the machinery of the Customs Duties, it is because it is necessary to bring them into the net and difficult to devise means of leaving them out without sacrificing the duty in other ways. Take the case of travellers coming back from France. I think the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) brought forward similar cases last year. Ladies, we will say, coming back from abroad, buy some dresses, or stockings, or other articles of apparel on the Continent. When they come over to this country they are called upon, under the existing law, as it was passed last year, to pay the duty under the Schedule in the Act of last year, and they would have to pay a percentage on the total value of the article that they bring. In one case it will be 10 per cent., in another case it will be 33⅓ per cent., or in another case it might be 2 per cent., as the case may be, according to the value of the article, and there is at present no way of charging them on any other principle.

It is quite clear, however, in such cases as I am supposing, of articles of apparel, that, first of all, a very small, or comparatively small, part of the value of the article itself might be the dutiable material which it contains. I do not know whether hon. Members are sufficiently learned in matters of female apparel to know that, as I have been informed, it very often happens that fashion and cut, or something of that sort, gives a value to an article of apparel four or five times as great as would be justified by the material it contains. The consequence might well be that while, in the case, say, of a dress, the value, from the point of view of silk, might be comparatively trifling, yet, owing to the fashionable cut and the place from which it was brought, the actual value might be a good many pounds. We have no wish unnecessarily to inflict inconvenience upon persons coming back from abroad in these circumstances, and we are anxious, if possible, not, of course, to relieve them of paying duty—that would be impossible— but to put the duty upon some principle which will avoid having to call upon them to pay on a basis far beyond the actual intrinsic value, and also which will relieve them from the very careful investigation of the goods which is necessary at present in order to arrive at the sum they are called upon to pay. Such persons as I am describing often themselves find it very difficult to produce evidence of the actual value of the goods they bring.

The proposal which my right hon. Friend is now making is that for the future, in such cases, where the silk is imported by any person for his own use and not for sale, then, instead of having to pay under the part of the Schedule of the Act of last year which imposes an ad valorem duty, they should have the option—they are not forced to do so—of having their goods put into a scale, which takes no time, and the weight determined by the Customs official. All that is then necessary is to discover or decide what is the appropriate rate of specific duty according to weight, and then they are to be charged double the rate of duty—I will say in a moment why it is double— applicable to the sort of silk contained in the article of apparel under the Schedule of last year. The effect of that would be this: First of all, in the cases I have in mind, where the value is decided by fashion, or fit, or cut, or anything apart from the intrinsic value of the material, the actual duty which will be paid will be reduced very largely, and very much more into accordance with the actual value; and, secondly, by the very rapid and easy process of determining what the silk content of the article is, the passenger or private importer will be relieved from the troublesome and sometimes lengthy process of determining what is the exact amount which has to be paid on the goods.

Someone might ask me why they should pay on double the value. The reason for that is this: It is necessary to be sure that the person who pays the duty upon an imported silk article of apparel should pay a sum which will be sufficient to cover all the waste material which would be involved in making that article in this country, and to safeguard the similar maker in this country against a competition which would be unfair to him if the duty upon the imported article were not fully up to the level of the Duty borne in this country. In the same way, there are, of course, many articles which contain different qualities and different sorts of silk, and, for the same reason, our proposal is that in these cases the highest quality of silk which enters into the composition of the article shall be taken as the basis of the duty, and that then double the rate applicable to that particular sort of silk, according to the Schedule of the Act of 1925, shall be charged upon it. If the Committee want to know what the financial effect of my right hon. Friend's proposal is expected to be, I can assure them that there is not a very large sum of money involved. We expect that a loss of about £25,000 in a full year will be involved, but I think the Committee will probably agree that it is worth making that sacrifice—although every sacrifice in money is a matter to be carefully considered—in order to remove what innocent travellers naturally feel to be rather a grievance when they are put to inconvenience in consequence of the duties imposed upon silk, and especially when they are called upon, as they have to be under the existing Schedule, to pay a very much higher sum than they would be called upon to pay if the payment were made, as we hope now to make it, more in proportion to the actual value of the silk employed.

I am afraid there must be few Members of the Committee, except, perhaps, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), who have followed with clear understanding the highly technical explanation which has been given by the Financial Secretary; but, so far as I did understand it, I understand the object of this Amendment to be to facilitate the administration of the Silk Duties. The one statement made by the Financial Secretary which determines my action on this Amendment is that it is going to lose the Chancellor of the Exchequer £25,000 a year. We were, as the Committee knows, opposed to these Silk Duties altogether, and, although £25,000 a year is not very much by comparison with the total yield of the duties, yet it is a small crumb, and to that extent we are grateful, and shall support the Amendment.

Before the Debate on this subject goes any further, I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to tell us exactly what he means by the new alternative scale of drawbacks contained in Sub-section (3) of this Clause. This is his Finance Bill, and he is introducing something there which, to some people at any rate, is almost unintelligible. In connection with a supposed reduction of duties, he is increasing drawbacks from 5s. 6d. to 7s. 9d., and I think the matter ought to be explained, so that we may know exactly what it means.

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to explain that later, I should like to have a word now on the proposal that is before us. I was very much interested to hear the Financial Secretary contrasting the attitude of the House in the Committee to-day with what it was a year ago—

No, Sir; I was under the impression that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to reply to my question.

If the hon. Member was only asking a question, he can, of course, proceed.

Now, that I find I cannot have the answer to my question yet, I will proceed to what I originally wanted to say. The Financial Secretary was contrasting the attitude of the Committee this year and last year, and suggesting that the Silk Duties had not only done no harm to industry, but had actually done good. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I was wondering whether hon. Members opposite would say "Hear, hear!" I wish I could take some of them on a visit to some of the exporters of Bradford, and let them have half an hour with them in the private office. I should leave them and let them see what they think about the difficulties they find in securing a drawback on these fabrics, which with the express connivance of the Government is so made that the foreigner is to have cheaper goods made at Bradford than the people of England. I am pleased that hon. Members opposite who believe in making the foreigner pay agree with a policy which allows that. In the opinion of some of these exporters it is costing more to administer the drawback than they derive from the taxes. The silk tax has not been justified. The silk industry and the industries that are using silk have succeeded in spite of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done, and not because of it. You cannot kill a growing industry. It has been a growing industry and, so far as my observation has gone, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done all he could to check it. But who used the word "destruction" last year? Did anyone on this side suggest that this would destroy the silk trade? I do not remember anyone saying so.

The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) said it on many occasions.

I do not remember him saying it would destroy the silk trade. I remember him saying it would hamper and impede the growth of the industry, but no one with any common sense would say that a tax would destroy a trade. [ Interruption. ] If hon. Members want to discuss the general strike they had better wait till there is an opportunity. Hon. Members say "Hear, hear." They did not say that when the Financial Secretary referred to the matter. I suppose they think it is quite right for him to refer to last year's proceedings and quite wrong for me. With regard to the Amendment, I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer where he is going to get his experts from. I understand that if a person brings in some articles of wear intended for his own use it is the easiest thing in the world. All you have to do is to put them on a scale, find out what they weigh and charge twice the duty. Then it says that where silk of several classes is contained in the article it shall be charged with duty as if all the silk so contained were silk of that one of those classes, that is, if there are three classes in the article the duty will be charged on the highest quality. Who is going to determine the quality? I have been through the Customs several times, and I have not heard since the tax was put into operation of any of these gentlemen at Dover or Folkestone having been through a course of training at the Bradford Technical College which will enable them to tell the different qualities of silk. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us exactly who the experts are and on which basis the articles are going to be taxed, because I have a strong recollection last year of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) saying that the experts could not tell the difference between real and artificial silk. Then how is the Customs official to be able to tell it?

So that if a passenger comes in with some articles of apparel which are very valuable, in order to determine whether it is real or atificial silk you burn it, and if it shrivels up and does not burn you put it on the scales and find out the duty. That is very clever! If in the opinion of the experts on the other side it is impossible to tell the difference, it will be almost a physical impossibility for the Customs officials to take a yarn or thread out of the tissue and discover something in a minute which it takes experts in the trade a big portion of their lives to learn. The thing is so easy that it gets a mere cursory explanation from the Financial Secretary. This part of the Amendment is quite useless and unnecessary and absolutely unworkable.

Should I be in order in moving to alter the word "twice" to six times and to take the silk contained in the article as the silk of the lowest grade? My point is to cover the difficulties which have been referred to by the last speaker and at the same time, to obtain an easy method of assessment which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes. I think if the duty was taken at a higher figure—I do not know exactly what the figure would be, but, say, six times the duty—and always taking it on the lowest grade, it would obviate to a large extent the difficulty in assessment of the different grades.

It appears on a cursory general survey of the figures that it would increase the charge to the public.

It may be the case that it might increase the charge to the public, and in that case it would be necessary to have a Financial Resolution in the first instance, otherwise it would be out of order. But hon. Members will notice in line 5, that the alteration of the duty may be at the option of the importer. To that extent there is no charge.

I think you mis understand my interruption. It is not the proposal the Government have put down which would increase the charge upon the public. That would diminish the charge on the public. My hon. and gallant Friend's proposal to increase the duty from double to six times would have the effect of countervailing the diminution the Government propose and leaving a substantial balance.

In the first place it is an optional duty, and secondly my proposal is that the rate should be six times on the lowest grade, my contention being that it would not increase the total amount of duty.

If it is a fact that the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Amendment would necessarily increase the charge, it would obviously be out of Order. But as I understand it, the alternative put before the importer in the Government Amendment cannot, if the importer so chooses, increase the charge. If it was obligatory on the importer to pay this amount it would have been necessary to have a Financial Resolution before the Amendment was introduced by the Government. The same argument would apply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Amendment as to the Government's.

If I am in order I beg to move to leave out the word "twice" and to insert the words "six times" and to make the last line read "chargeable under the said Part I in respect of the silk contained in the article the said silk being of the lowest grade."

I desire later to move an Amendment on the second line. May I ask that you will protect my Amendment?

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the words "for his own use and not for sale."

This is not an Amendment on which it is possible to discuss the merits of the silk tax, and when we have an opportunity of discussing the merits of the tax it will be found that there is much more to be said than has fallen from the lips of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. Broadly the case against the tax, in my judgment, is not that manufacturers, if given the advantage of protective duties, will not be perfectly satisfied but that the tax is another way invented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of what he calls broadening the basis and touching the needs and comforts of the people at many new points. He compared it with the sugar tax, and I do not think more need be said about it.

I compared it with the Sugar Duty, last year for the purpose of showing how much less onerous it was.

Yes, but the eloquent simile was that just as the Sugar Tax touched people everywhere without anyone feeling the burden, so the new tax was going to touch people at every corner of their lives and form an important contribution from the poor to the revenue of the country. So it must not be supposed that we are going to let the case go by default because we are not making a full attack on the Silk Tax to-day. The Chancellor is anxious to make everything simple for the Customs officials, and anyone who reads Clause 5 aloud three times will understand how extremely simple the operation of the new duty is. This Amendment of the Government is merely giving, however late, something that was asked for many times from these benches last year. The Chancellor said: "I am going to tax silk. I do not want to tax cloth or sticks or wire or leather. I want to tax silk. He said: "When silk comes in in simple form, I shall tax it. When a man brings in silk as part of his coat, or as part of his hat or his shoes or his bag, I cannot ascertain how much silk there is, and I must tax on the whole value of the article." We said that there are cases where it will be quite simple, as, for instance, in the lining of a coat, to say how much silk there is. But he said that he could not do that; it would be too much for his courteous and hard-worked officials to determine such things, and he refused Amendments which suggested that the silk content of a made-up article should be taxed instead of the total value of the article.

Then why did the right hon. Gentleman resist our Amendment last year to separate the content from the article, and now he proposes an Amendment to give the importer the option of separating the contents.

My hon. and gallant Friend's absence from this country has prevented him from giving that attention to this matter which always characterises his contributions in our Debates. This has nothing to do with separating the silk contents from the rest of the garment. This does not differentiate between the silk contents and the rest of the garment. For good or for ill, if the importer wishes to avail himself or herself of this alternative, the whole of the silk content, be it little or be it much, is weighed with whatever else is in the garment, and the weight of the whole of the silk and the non-silk of the article is taken as the basis on which the tax is payable. The Customs told us last year that they could not distinguish in regard to the made-up articles, the exact proportion of the silk and other contents, nor can they do it now; it would be impossible. Here is a perfectly simple method of dealing with the problem by throwing the garment into the scale and charging as though all of the garment were silk at the rate of double the duty. This need not take effect in any particular case unless the importer considers it to be to his or her advantage to take advantage of the option. This option is to meet hard cases which have arisen, and in those cases this method now proposed will be of advantage. Apart from the advantage, it will be a convenience.

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I was wrong. I was under the impression that it was proposed to weigh the silk contents. The whole article is to be weighed.

This Amendment gives the importer the option of getting the article weighed and charged at this lower rate of duty?

In that case, I propose to give this option of relief from this onerous duty, not only to the rich traveller who happens to be passing through a port, but to the importer of articles for sale to the ordinary consumer. We all know the inconvenience of the Customs examination. There are so many complaints that people almost become Free Traders by the time they get on the train to Victoria. Why should this benefit be confined to the particular individuals who have the opportunity of traveling? It is in order to extend the benefit that I move to leave out the words "for his own use and not for sale."

Everyone admires the dexterity of my hon. and gallant Friend who, having begun his speech on a wholly wrong basis and having been enlightened, turns round and in the quickest possible way adapts his argument to an entirely different proposition and even suggests an Amendment for carrying his quickly changed argument into legislative form. I regret very much that I am not able to accept the Amendment which he has moved. I will give two reasons against accepting the Amendment. He asks why I confine this concession to the importer for his own use, and why I do not give the benefit to the wholesale importation of the trade for sale. The reason is that there is a great difference between the retail price and the wholesale price. One cannot say actually what the difference is, but I am told that the retail price is sometimes, and indeed often, between two and three times as great as the wholesale price of these articles. Consequently there is a much greater hardship in collecting an ad valorem tax on the retail price than there is upon the wholesale. That was taken into consideration in framing our duty on the basis of double the ordinary rates. We considered what is the difference between importing wholesale under the existing method of an ad valorem tax or taking advantage of the new option for specific duty in regard to an article of apparel brought in retail and not for sale. In regard to the latter, not only a much greater charge is made for retail as against wholesale, but there is also the fact that if any traffic developed in this, and people had to pay their journey each way, and there was the expense of their time, when you come to balance it up, we found that it was very nearly even handed between the imported wholesale article taxed ad valorem, and the use that would be made of the retail import, not for sale by the individuals. Broadly speaking, it balances.

That is the reason why I cannot accept an Amendment sweeping away the difference between the imported article for sale and the imported article for private use. If I were to accept the Amendment it would cost between £300,000 and £400,000. I cannot face such a loss. This is in the nature of a concession. It is an optional concession which I have made to meet peculiarly hard cases not contemplated by the Government and not intended by Parliament in regard to a very onerous tax without at the same time affecting the revenue. The Committee will remember that when this particular duty was passing through the House I stated that we did not intend to cause great friction and disturbance at the ports, and that we hoped to handle this traffic in a considerate and reasonable manner. Great inconvenience occurs in regard to this particular class of apparel. The Customs do not know exactly what value to put upon the articles when they are declared. In many cases they cannot tell whether the invoice is bona-fide or not. In many cases the invoice is not produced, and the Customs authorities are left with the extremely difficult task of setting a value upon an article which is necessarily one depending upon its face value. To avoid an unduly high charge being levied in that way we give the importer the option when the article is not for sale to say, "Very well, argue no more about it. Put it in the scale and we will pay double rate on the total weight of the article." Where it suits the importer to do that, he will exercise the option, but where it does not suit him the matter will proceed exactly as it is now. The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder), who knows a great deal about this subject, said that it would be very difficult for the Customs to tell the different classes of silk. I am advised that it will not be difficult for them to tell the difference in a great majority of cases, between real silk, artificial silk, noils and yarns. They are able to do so quite easily. They are already making this distinction and charging accordingly as well as they can. The rule will be in regard to this option that where there is any doubt about it, they will always, for safety, take the more valuable.

I think the last words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer have put me in order with my Amendment. I move—

The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) told us that he was not one of the gloomy prophets of last year. I think it is desirable in view of that statement that the Committee should know exactly how false a prophet he was. In the Debate last year, after telling the Chancellor of the Exchequer what a real Statesman would do, he said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was making it almost impossible for this young and growing industry to carry on. I quote his words in case anything he said to-day may be taken too seriously.

I was making special reference to what the Financial Secretary said. He stated that we had said that the trade was being destroyed. There is a great deal of difference between destroying something, and preventing its growth.

The hon. Member said that this Duty was making it almost impossible for this young industry to carry on.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury was at great pains to refute some of the criticisms we passed last year. He said that not one of our prophecies had been fulfilled. I would like to refer him to what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he admitted that if this duty had not added to the price of the artificial silk goods, it had at least intercepted the reduction of the price. That is as great a justification of our criticism as if an actual increase of price had taken place as a result of these proposals. I rise to support the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend. The inconveniences which arise from the imposition of this duty are of two kinds. There is the inconvenience caused owing to the difficulty of ascertaining the percentage of silk in any particular article, and there is also the irritation caused by the doubt which exists as to the value of certain articles. The first kind of inconvenience covers all kinds of articles, expensive and inexpensive. The irritation which is caused by doubt as to the value of the article is generally felt by those who are attempting to import a very expensive article. In consideration of whether relief should be given from these feelings of exasperation, the Chancellor of the Exchequer pays no regard to the first class but exhibits the utmost tenderness for those who bring in expensive articles.

8.0 P.M.

Out of all the confusion and doubt which surrounds this topic, one thing is clear. The object of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is to save from a little momentary irritation the lady who goes to Paris and buys frocks worth 30, 40, 50 and, I believe in some cases, even 100 guineas. Why, if the right hon. Gentleman feels so tenderly for the feelings of those ladies, is he not willing to extend that privilege to all classes of goods by saying that he will forego the duty if the proportion of silk is not above a certain amount? I believe this evil, if it is an evil to go abroad to buy goods, is becoming more and more serious. It was only the other day that we were told to buy British goods. I am only trying to get hon. Gentlemen opposite to be consistent. We are constantly hearing the President of the Board of Trade asking us to buy British goods. Quite recently the president of the Great Western Railway, I think it was, said that 5,000,000 people went abroad every year and spent £50,000,000. Why should we go out of our way to make an alteration in respect to certain people, and not extend it to the buyers of the cheaper goods?

I beg to support the Amendment which has been proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain Benn). We have heard a great deal about what silk is and what it is not, and about how it is necessary to burn it in order to prove that it is silk, all of which I think to any practical man, is beyond the point. We seem to be in a state of doubt as to what we are really taxing, as to whether the Customs officials have a sufficient knowledge of the textile trade, and, generally speaking, we have tied ourselves up in knots about things we do not too well understand. There is too much humbug at the ports. Speaking as one who has suffered, and as one who has had a schedule pushed under his nose that would take him 20 minutes to half an hour to read, I am all in favour of a principle which will reduce the inconvenience to a minimum. The Customs officials do their best with their difficult duty, and they perform it in a very courteous way, but when they have done their best with all their courtesy, it is still essential that something should be done for the ordinary traveller in order that he or she should be saved from inconvenience. As a method of letting people get through without too much humbug, I am quite in favour of the principle that is laid down in the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but because the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend gives me an opportunity of voting for something I think will minimise the damage that is being done to a growing industry by this tax; because I believe it will reduce the tax and reduce the humbug, I shall certainly go into the Lobby in favour of his Amendment.

I do not propose to say more than a very few words because, as my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary of the Treasury very truly said, there is a very different atmosphere in this House as compared with what there was 12 months ago when we were debating the same subject on the introduction of the Budget by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There are two things which have been said to-night, one by the bon. and gallant Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) and the other by the hon. Member for Leith (Captain Benn). The hon Member for Shipley spoke of the difficulties which were created by these duties.

I do not think I can allow the hon. Member to discuss this question on the supplementary Amendment.

The hon. Member for Shipley and the hon. and gallant Member for Leith both referred to the Silk Duties as a whole, and I should like to refer to the arguments which they used.

If they used those arguments, which I did not hear, then the hon. Gentleman can reply to them.

If there are any bouquets to be thrown about they should be thrown at the officials of the Customs, who have, in my opinion, done their work with extraordinary intelligence and with very great ability. I do not think when you come to consider the inconvenience that it is anything to be compared with the great advantage which has taken place as a result of these duties. The hon. Member for Shipley stated that this was a coming industry, but it was not a coming industry 12 months ago. Twelve months ago the silk industry in this country was a dying industry.

Has the hon. Member read the report of the chairman of the Snia Viscora, in which he stated that British production of artificial silk had gone down from second to fourth place in the world's production since 1925?

I have reason to doubt whether that statement is a correct statement. To my knowledge, there are 15 silk factories which have been put up, and there are very large extensions of various kinds going on. There are three things which the Chancellor of the Exchequer can do in this matter which can be of considerable help.

I very much doubt if the hon. Member can pursue that subject on this Amendment.

I presume that that comes under the question of the Clause standing part, but I am quite satisfied that all the misgivings expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith and the hon. Member for Shipley last year have been disproved to the utmost, and we can look forward with increasing advantage to those duties as they proceed.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 211; Noes, 121.

Division No. 241.]

AYES.

[8.12 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Fermoy, Lord

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Butt, Sir Alfred

Finburgh, S.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Campbell, E. T.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Alien, J. Sandeman (L'pool.W. Derby)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth.S.)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Apsley, Lord

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Atkinson, C.

Christie, J. A.

Freemantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Balniel, Lord

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Clarly, Reginald George

Gates, Percy

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Goff, Sir Park

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Gower, Sir Robert

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Cooper, A. Duff

Grace, John

Bennett, A. J.

Cope, Major William

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Berry, sir George

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Betterton, Henry B.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Blundell, F. N

Crookshank.Cpt. H.(Lindsey. Gainsbro)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Dalkeith, Earl of

Harland, A.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Harrison, G. J. C.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Hartington, Marquess of

Briscoe, Richard George

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Brocklebank, C. E. R

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Dawson Sir Philip

Hawke, John Anthony

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd, Hexham)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Honn, Sir Sydney H.

Brown, Brig. Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Hills, Major John Waller

Bullock, Captain M.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Burman, J. B.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine.'C.)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Nelson, Sir Frank

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

Nicholson, D. (Westminster)

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd.Whiteh'n)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G.(Ptrsl'ld.)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hume, Sir G. H.

Nuttall, Ellis

Storry-Deans, R.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Oakley, T.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hurst, Gerald B.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Jacob, A. E.

Penny, Frederick George

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Jephcott, A. R.

Perring, Sir William George

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Preston, William

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Ramsden, E.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Lamb, J. Q.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Remer, J. R.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Looker, Herbert William

Remnant, Sir James

Wells, S. R.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Ropner, Major L.

Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

McLean, Major A.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Macmillan, Captain H.

Rye. F. G.

Withers, John James

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Salmon, Major I

Wolmer, Viscount

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Womersley, W. J.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sandon, Lord

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Malone, Major P. B.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Mason, Lieut-Colonel. Glyn K.

Savery, S S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Merriman, F. B.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D.Mcl.(Renfrew,W.)

Colonel Gibbs and Captain Margesson.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sinclair, Col.T. (Queen'sUniv.,Belfast)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Skelton, A. N.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Harris, Percy A.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scrymgeour, E.

Ammon, Charles George

Hayday, Arthur

Scurr, John

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayes, John Henry

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Barnes, A.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Batey, Joseph

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Bromley, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Buchanan, G.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Snell, Harry

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Compton, Joseph

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Stamford, T. W.

Connolly, M.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stephen, Campbell

Cove, W. G.

Kelly, W. T.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kennedy, T.

Sutton, J. E.

Dalton, Hugh

Kirkwood, D.

Taylor, R. A.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lansbury, George

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dennison, R.

Lawrence, Susan

Thurtle, E.

Duncan, C.

Lawson, John James

Tinker, John Joseph

Dunnico, H.

Livingstone, A. M.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lowth, T.

Viant, S. P.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Lunn, William

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Forrest, W.

Mackinder, W.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gardner, J. P.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Welsh, J. C

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

March, S.

Whiteley, W.

Gillett, George M.

Morris, R H.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Gosling, Harry

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Murnin, H.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Greenall, T.

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Owen, Major G.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Palin, John Henry

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Groves, T.

Paling, W.

Wright, W.

Grundy, T. W.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Purcell, A. A.

Sir Godfrey Collins and Major Crawfurd.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Richards, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Hardie, George D.

Rose, Frank H.

Proposed words there inserted.

I beg move, in page 3, line 42, at the end, to insert the words

"and by the insertion at the end thereof of the following:

Made from imported double or twisted thread on which Customs duty of 3s. a lb. has been paid.…the lb., 3s. 5d."

Part IV of the Second Schedule of the Finance Act, 1925, provides an alternative rate of drawback for silk tissues made from staple fibre and artificial silk tissues made from singles yarn, but it does not provide a rate for such tissues when they are made from imported double or twisted thread. The import of double or twisted thread pays a duty of 3s a lb. but a manufacturer of tissues for such thread cannot export his produce except at a loss, unless a proper rate of drawback is granted. I understand that a drawback rate for this class of tissue was not included in the Schedule last year, the reason being that it was thought that no export trade existed in this class of goods. As a matter of fact, there is a small export trade in this article, and I think it is only fair that a drawback rate should be included in the Schedule this year. I feel certain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is anxious to help the export trade of this country, and I have very much pleasure in moving the Amendment.

In moving the last Amendment in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I said it was natural enough that the experience of 12 months of these duties should have brought to our knowledge certain facts in connection with the trade and the necessity for dealing with it which were not within our knowledge at the time the original Schedule was formed last year. My hon. Friend in moving his Amendment has put forward just such a case. We were not aware at the time that there was an export trade in tissues made from thread in the manner my hon. Friend has put before the Committee, and, that being so, we think it is a case which ought to be provided for in the Schedule, and we are, therefore, ready to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ( Provisions for securing Customs and Excise Duties imposed by Ways and Means Resolutions not having statutory effect ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7.—(Stabilisation of rates of Imperial Preference.)

I beg to move, in page 5, line 15, to leave out the word "ten," and to insert instead thereof the word "two."

This is the Clause dealing with Imperial Preference. It guarantees to the Dominions and Colonies that the preferences which they at present enjoy shall be maintained for 10 years, whatever Government may be in power, and in order to express our opinion of this Clause I am moving the substitution of "ten" for "two." The late Chancellor of the. Exchequer has already stated that the Labour party refuse in any future eventuality and when it is returned to office to be bound by this guarantee and accepts no obligation as a result of this Clause which the Government desires to carry to-night. We move the Amendment in order to go further than that, in order to register our view that the Government have no right to put a Clause of this kind on the Statute Book at all. We regard this Clause, using words with which the Government is familiar, as "a breach of the. Constitution." The Government have a perfect right to make a formal statement that so long as they and their party remain in office they will continue the Duties, but before putting in an Act of Parliament a guarantee that the Duties are to remain in force, whatever Government may be in power, it was their business to obtain the assent of all parties in the House. Such a guarantee can be properly given on behalf of this House only by general assent. There has been no general assent; there is complete disagreement.

We regard this Clause as an illegitimate exercise of the authority which the Government temporarily possess, and as a breach of all the principles upon which the power of this House rests. The Government are not entitled to try to embarrass the future action of any alternative Government by a Clause of this sort. If as a result of some future General Election we are returned to this House with a majority behind us, we claim that we are entitled to the same free and unimpeded path for our legislation as the party opposite always claims for itself. This attempt to lay it down that, whatever Government is in power, it must follow the policy of the Tory party for 10 years, is to make the Council of the Tory party a rival authority to this House. It is an unconstitutional act for which, under the Emergency Powers Act, the whole Cabinet might very well be put into Wormwood Scrubbs.

Beyond that, we say that this Clause and this attempt to tie us down in advance to breaking the principles for which we stand, is a menace to our relationships with the Dominions and with the Colonies. In our Debates we continually hear of the good will which the party opposite wishes to build up between ourselves and the Dominions. But the whole secret, the explanation, of the good will which at present exists is a very simple one. It arises from the fact that we have rigidly observed the rule that there shall be no interference with the internal affairs of any State of the Commonwealth by any other State. This Clause breaks that principle, out of which the existing general friendliness has arisen. It will be resented in the Dominions if we try to tie their Opposition down. We have a right to resent it here.

Take the case of the Sugar Duty. It is our policy to repeal the Sugar Duty, and part of that policy we carried into effect two years ago. But if in future we find ourselves on the other side of the House and we repeal this Sugar Duty, this preference will disappear; it will mean nothing, and we shall be put in the position in which we are either forced to abandon the policy that we have always expressed or we are forced to put the Dominions in a position in which the vested interests, which will have grown up behind this guarantee, will find themselves led to ruin and disaster, and this guarantee will prove to be a meaningless scrap of paper. For those reasons, although we repudiate any obligation under this Clause, we recognise that the Government are deliberately creating a situation of awkwardness and unfriendliness. We have selected a period of two years in our Amendment because it is probable, in the normal course of events, that this Parliament will last for that time or a little longer, and at the end of that period we anticipate that we shall be in a position to carry our policy into effect.

The hon. Gentleman has been commendably brief in putting his objections before the Committee I do not think that I can do better than follow his example, at all events in that respect. He has very wisely not thought it necessary to make a very elaborate development of his case, and I do not think that I need occupy a long time in meeting the protest that he has made. The hon. Member has told us that he proposes to cut down the period of stabilisation from ten years to two, for the reasons given. I do not think that I shall be in any way misrepresenting his real mind if I take it that his objection is to the principle of stabilising at all, and that he is good enough to allow us two years, although he would rather have none at all. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman, speaking when the Committee is not usually very preoccupied with Parliamentary business and is thinking more of other parts of the precincts, really took himself very seriously or intended us to take him very seriously. All I can say is that if he did, he used very extravagant language which, if it were within the limits of Parliamentary courtesy to describe as "bunkum," I should feel tempted to do. Of course, I should be sorry to do so in the House itself.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not do so, or I might have something to say.

That is why I avoid doing so. When the hon. Member told us that to put into a Finance Bill the stabilisation of a particular form of taxation for a period of 10 years is a breach of the Constitution, I really must give him credit for greater knowledge of the Constitution than to think that he really meant anything so extravagant. The only point of any substance which the hon. Gentleman endeavoured to make is one which, if he had made it in moderate language, I should be quite willing to concede. Everyone knows that no Parliament has the power and no Government has the power, even if they had the wish, to limit the freedom of action of any future Government or future Parliament. The hon. Gentleman has said that he and his party claim to retain perfect freedom when they come on to these benches, to deal in what way they choose with the question of Imperial Preference. We do not deny their right for a moment. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a former stage of these debates—I think in the Budget speech—very freely conceded that point. He recognised, as we must all recognise, that any future Government may deal as they choose with this matter, but it seemed to me that the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), in putting forward this case, appeared to have some apprehension as to the effect upon his party's position in this matter, because they would have to make their position known before the country. Of course it is true that if there were no stabilisation by the present Government nothing would be altered. It would be quite possible for the present Government, so long as they retained office, or any future Government which shared their views on Imperial matters, to continue this taxation without making it a statutory stabilised system. That would be quite possible.

What is the only effect, so far as the party opposite are concerned, of putting this stabilisation into the Statute? The only difference I can see is that they will not be able to give up the system of Imperial Preference without full notice to the country that they are so doing. As I said in a previous Debate, we on this side of the House most gladly invite the hon. Gentleman and his friends opposite to make the fullest advertisement in the country that such is their intention. We are so strongly persuaded that the system of Imperial Preference has the overwhelming support of the voters in the country that we are only most anxious— and that is one of the chief reasons for putting it into the Statute in this form —that if the party opposite are going to repudiate it, as they have a right to do, at all events the electors shall have full notice that such would be the effect of putting them info power. I am sure the hon. Gentleman who has candidly given notice of the intention of his party in this matter sincerely believes that it is sound public policy, but I have not the slightest doubt, when that is thoroughly understood in the country, it will contri- bute very largely towards keeping the hon. Gentleman and his friends in the position where they are to-day. I do not complain in the least that the hon. Gentleman has not thought it necessary to go into the merits of the question, because it is a subject we have fully discussed, and the views of the party to which I belong and the views of hon. Members opposite upon it are perfectly well known. I see a solitary Member of the Liberal party is present, and therefore perhaps I ought to add something as regards that party.

Before the right hon. Gentleman passes to that interesting subject, may I ask him to say something about his own party? For instance, are his views on this matter in accord with the views of the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs?

I am not conscious of any difference. Of course, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman can show me that I am expressing a view which is not held by my right hon. Friend, I will listen to him with great respect, but I am not conscious myself, at any rate of an substantial difference of view between my right hon. Friend and myself. But I should like to point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this question of stabilisation started with his party. The present position of affairs is so embarrassing that it is very difficult to know exactly what is the position of the Liberal party.

This rather tends to what is known in connection with Finance Bills as "tacking."

I know so well the keenness and zeal of my hon. and gallant Friend, who is the sole representative of the Liberal party at the moment, that I submit I am entitled to anticipate what he may say in opposition to the stabilisation of this policy. Surely, I am entitled to show that his leader, if I may so call the right hon. Gentleman, is the originator of this policy. I do not know whether that circumstance will in any way embarrass the hon. and gallant Gentleman. It might or it might not, but as the Liberal party is such an important part of the House of Commons, one is entitled to show to what extent they are pledged in this policy. I will not labour the point further than to say that it was during the period when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was Prime Minister that this policy was first inaugurated and was carried out. In view of that very distinct precedent, in view of the fact that last, year the House of Commons carried through the policy of stabilising preference in regard to sugar, it is not, as I have said, necessary now to go into the merits of the question. Nor is it necessary to go into fundamental principles of constitutional law. I do not understand how hon. Gentlemen opposite can justify the suggestion that we are doing anything unconstitutional.

It is well known that we on this side of the House feel Imperial Preference to be a policy of immense advantage—of more advantage perhaps that anything else—to the future trade of the country. Both on economic grounds and on constitutional grounds we support this stabilisation and knowing the views frequently put forward by hon. Gentlemen opposite I do not think it necessary on this occasion to go through the form of refuting their arguments again. I am certain the hon. Member for Keighley will not be suprised to hear that it is quite impossible for the Government to accept his Amendment. We are perfectly resolved, so far as we can, to stabilise the system of Imperial Preference. Any period that may be taken must be more or less an arbitrary period. We consider 10 years to be the minimum which is useful for giving that sense of stability and security upon which a system of inter-Imperial trade is likely to be built up and we certainly intend to ask the Committee to adhere to the form of the Clause as it is.

I would like to say a word or two at the outset on the purely party aspect of the question which has occupied most of the time of the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary, and afterwards to raise it above the lines of purely party controversy and examine it in its aspect of our Imperial connections. In regard, first, to the party aspect, does the right hon. Gentleman stand, with the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, for the full Chamberlain policy in Imperial Preference, namely, the taxation of food for the purpose of giving a Preference to the Colonies? He was extremely incisive on the difficulties of the party to which I belong. Will he answer—if so, I will willingly resume my seat—and say if he is in favour of the full Chamberlain policy of Imperial Preference? There is no answer.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants an answer now, I would say that it all depends on what he means by asking if I am in favour of that policy. Nearly 20 years ago, I think it was, I was a supporter of that policy, and I was a great believer in it. I believe it would have done immense benefit to this country if it had been then carried, and in that sense I am certainly a believer in it, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman means that I think, in all the circumstances, political and other, that have taken place since, that that is a practical policy to-day, I say that I do not.

It is not quite clear yet what the right hon. Gentleman thinks, but I fancy he means that he would like to tax food if he thought it was a practicable policy; that is to say, if he thought he would get in if he proposed it. The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, when this matter was discussed after the last dÉbacle in the Conservative party, in 1923, wrote a letter to make it clear that he stood for the whole policy, that he "went the whole hog," as the cant phrase has it, and so perhaps the right hon. Gentleman opposite, before he examines the supposed differences in other parties, will, from the purely party aspect, devote himself to a solution of the difficulties in his own party. We have heard to-day what I thought was a very ominous phrase from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who spoke about a free Imperial breakfast table. That may mean merely the old Chamberlain policy in a new form. It sounded to me as if it did. It sounded to me as if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with his rhetorical skill, was inventing a new watchword for the old policy of taxing food in order to give a preference to the Colonies, and, if that be so, and if the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary wishes he could, and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies is determined he shall, have such a policy as that, is it any wonder that from this side of the House we protest against the stabilisation of the taxation of the food of the people?

That is the party point of view, but for myself I think there is a far more important aspect of this than the matter of party differences. If hon. Members opposite want to proclaim, to the world that they stand for this system of tariff ties, they can do it by manifestoes in the next conclave of the Primrose League or some such organisation, but when they are putting it into an Act of Parliament, they are not deceiving us in this country, but they are deceiving the people in the Dominions. We know perfectly well that it is impossible for this House to bind any subsequent House. This is a sovereign Assembly, and in any Session a Bill can pass through Parliament to destroy or alter any Act on the Statute Book. We know that. [An HON. MEMBER: "So do they."] Then what is the point of doing it? The purpose is to give a public manifesto to the Conservative party, at a grave risk of misunderstanding in the distant Dominions. We are all deeply conscious that when we resist these specious proposals for taxing the food of very poor people in this country, in the supposed interests of the people of the Dominions, it may be misunderstood in the Dominions; nevertheless, it is our duty to do it, but when you are going to add to that possible misunderstanding this grave, patent, and obvious misunderstanding, I say that by such an act you are doing something which is a possible grave danger to Imperial good understanding.

The Dominions say: "We shall get this for 10 years," and people there invest money. They lay out estates, we will say, for sugar, or whatever it may be, and what shall we say to them when the time comes when, I hope, a Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to say: "I shall revise the Sugar Tax below the limit of the present rates, because it is the best thing I can do to assist the cost of living to the people in this country "? The people in the Dominions will say: "But you passed an Act in 1926 promising us this Preference for 10 years," and then the right hon. Gentleman opposite will say: "But you knew perfectly well there was nothing in it, that it was only a salve, in order to make an advertisement for the Conservative party." Then the people out there will say: "But we have laid out our money on the strength of that Act of Parliament, and we are entitled to compensation for our loss." What answer will the right hon. Gentleman make to a statement of that kind? It is true that his course will not deceive anyone here, but it is objectionable and ought to be defeated or amended, because it may gravely deceive and may cause serious and dangerous misunderstanding among our cousins, as they are called, in the Dominions overseas.

When the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) speaks of the stabilisation of the taxation of the food of the people, he should say the stabilisation of relief of the taxation of the food of the people. It appears to me that the great reason why the Government propose this period of 10 years is that they are only carrying out the declared wish of the Imperial Conference of 1923, the results of which Conference were so flouted by the party to which the hon. and gallant Member belongs in the following year.

But that question was not put before the country then as an issue. It was put before the country as an issue at the last Election, and we know the answer that was given then. When the hon. Member opposite moved this Amendment, I was very doubtful whether he spoke for the whole of his party. There are grave heart-searchings among his back benchers on this question, and one is glad to notice that an increasing number of them are now voting for a policy of Preference. I put it to hon. Members that it is only a plain, business proposition to give to the business people of this country and of the Dominions a period in which they can develop their business. When I was in Canada last autumn, I spoke to a great many business people, and what they asked was: "Give us Preference, and let us know what to expect for, at any rate, a lengthened period." They said the same thing in South Africa, and it seems to me that this proposition on the part of the Government is not only taking an Imperial view of the position, but a good businesslike view, for the great-benefit of the people of this country and of the Dominions.

The hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Somerville) has, I think, given the necessary reply to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who, when he was replying to the Mover of this Amendment, stated that he would welcome this matter being submitted to the country at some future date. The hon. Member for Windsor has pointed out that the policy embodied in the Government's proposal was submitted to the people of this country in 1923. Perhaps it would be as well to remind the Committee of the circumstances surrounding that Election. The Imperial Conference had been sitting during September, and the atmosphere that was generated in the party opposite and in the Government of that day, in regard to Preference proposals, led to the Election in 1923. Anyone who looks back on the issue submitted to the electors on that occasion will readily admit that Imperial Preference, an extension of Imperial Preference, the stabilisation of Imperial Preference was an essential feature of the appeal of the Government of that day to the country, with the result that the electors, in an overwhelming degree, rejected that policy, and I wish to remind the Financial Secretary that even at the present time there is a majority of the electors of this country who have declared their opposition to this policy. No one can argue that Imperial Preference was a central feature of electoral policy at the last Election.

Surely the hon. Member does not confuse a general tariff with Imperial Preference?

Although a general tariff was not incorporated in the programme, no one can deny that that would be the effect and circumstance of the Imperial Preference proposals—that the development of that conference was the prime motive in that Election! The bulk of public controversy centred very largely round the Imperial Preference proposals. I want to oppose this policy again, as I have done in previous years, because in my view the stabilisation of this Preference would lead to disaster in the relations between this country and the Dominions. We have from these benches stated over and over again that we are not opposed to any policy that will lead to a legitimate development of trade between ourselves and the Colonies. We are, however, opposed to developing that trade under a fiscal system about which there can be no agreement between the political parties in this country. If you attempt to build up trade on a fiscal system upon which there is the keenest division of opinion in this country, I submit it must end in disaster to every object we have in view.

The Labour party, and those persons in it who have expressed some sympathy towards Imperial Preference, have never denied the fact that they still stand for the abolition of taxes on food, and will endeavour to carry it out when we get a Labour Government—as we shall do in a very short period! That being the case, I venture to suggest that it is impossible to carry a real preference on sugar, tea, or any other commodity for a period of 10 years. Those in the Dominions, and particularly those who are developing trade there, must look forward to some measure of continuity in conditions. Imperial Preference, based, as it is, on the retention of food taxes in this country, will merely give an artificial stimulus to Dominion trade while a Conservative Government is in power. Despite what the Financial Secretary said a little while ago, that the Dominions know that under our Parliamentary system each Parliament has power and freedom to vary the acts of its predecessor, nevertheless, we all know the harmful effects upon trade of these changes; persons who do not realise fully the play of party policy and who do not necessarily—seeing they live at remote parts of the Empire— know or are conversant with current politics here—obviously so in the Dominions—and finding that a British Parliament has carried stabilisation for a period of 10 years, may assume, not unreasonably, I think, that the British people will honour that decision of the Government.

9.0 P.M.

That, I imagine, is a broad interpretation of the proceedings of the party opposite. I claim it is not playing the game, either on behalf of the people of this country or of the Dominion growers whose money will flow into business, if it is being built up on an artificial foundation. If that were the only policy that can be inaugurated in this country to develop and stimulate Empire trade, there might be something said for what we claim are the unfair and dishonest tactics of the party opposite. But it is not the only policy that we can evolve for the purpose of building up Dominion and Empire trade. In the Imperial Economic Committee, in the various trading organisations that are developing in the Dominions for the requirements of the British market, in all this, anyone can see that there has been a variety of developments in recent years which are showing more practical returns, and encouraging trade in our Colonies and Dependencies better than the policy of Imperial Preference.

The House, I suggest, will do far better to encourage and inspire methods for stimulating and developing trade in a variety of ways, of a more permanent character, than by the policy which the party opposite are so keen for other reasons upon instituting in this country, I agree, than actually helping the Dominions. No one will tell me, for instance, that the agriculture interest in this country supports Imperial Preference because they want to help the Dominion grower. They are doing it because they know very well that the logical development of that policy means the taxation of food imports into this country as a permanent part of our fiscal system. They look to the almost inevitable development of this policy, step by step, and stage by stage, until there is sufficient interest built up in the Dominions and in this country. They want to do this in such a way as not to bring upon themselves the wrath of the people of this country. But stage by stage this policy will be developed until there is no more margin left except for a tax on cereals and meat. That is where this policy is driving to. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown it in a variety of ways.

We have seen in the last two years a considerable extension of indirect taxation. There are hundreds of articles to-day that are now being subjected to a tax both for revenue and other purposes that were not in the least revenue-bearing articles a matter of two or three years ago. Every time this policy has been submitted to the country it has been overwhelmingly rejected by the people. I submit again that if the party opposite want to carry their policy of stabilisation and they are going to carry out such an extension of which I am speaking, the only fair and honest thing to do is to submit it to the country as an integral feature of their policy. If they do that I am convinced that it will be rejected.

Another point to which I should like to refer is this: The reason I consider that stabilisation of preferences will fail to work is this: The reason for preferences are different in the case of ourselves and in the case of our Dominions. Taxation is imposed on manufactured commodities that go into the Dominions, not primarily for the purpose of giving the benefit to the British manufacturer, but primarily for the purpose of encouraging the manufacture of those goods in the Dominions. The preference that eventually finds its way to the British manufacturers is incidental. The primary objective is for the purpose of encouraging home manufactures, and so to get us out of the Dominions markets. In our case the principle of Preference is entirely different. We have imposed a tax upon foodstuffs, tea, sugar, tobacco and other commodities, not primarily for the purpose of encouraging the home grower to enlarge his output. That has not been the purpose. The purpose of the taxation of foodstuffs in Great Britain has been primarily to raise revenue. If our objective is primarily to raise revenue, then obviously any preference depends on the continuation of food taxation. That is the first thing.

That is why we argue there can be no assimilation, no agreement between the two parties. The policy of the Conservative party is to spread taxation over as many commodities as possible, in order to relieve the direct taxpayer. We stand for a policy of increasing the burdens on the direct taxpayer, and therefore there are the same economic divisions and antagonisms between the two parties in this system that underlie the general strike and the conflict now going on in this country. In these circumstances it is regrettable that Dominion affairs, and the question of Dominion trade particularly, should be thrown into the vortex of party controversy. If we allow this system to develop, the urge of our home agriculture, which we all wish to see improve, will eventually push this policy on to the same lines as the Dominion policy, i.e., the taxation of foodstuffs not for revenue but to keep out foreign foodstuffs.

So far the manufacturing preeminence of Great Britain has depended very largely on cheap food and cheap raw materials. Every addition to the cost of our immense variety of imported foodstuffs and raw materials adds to our manufacturing costs; and when it is our primary need to restore the prosperity of our exporting industries I fail to see how any permanent good can come to British industry if, through safeguarding, through preference and in other ways we keep on adding a little bit here and a little bit there to the burdens borne by our export trade. I support this Amendment, which limits the preference to two years, in order to make it clear to the Dominions that the Labour party, which represents a rapidly-growing section of the people of this country—anyone who watches the m1ovement of public opinion in recent elections, both national and municipal, must see very clearly that the executive Government which will follow this will be a Labour Government—are opposed to this policy. We have made our position clear beyond any doubt at all, and the party opposite are doing the worst possible thing for the Dominions and the trade of this country in taking up the attitude they do. I do not ask the Conservative party to go back on their beliefs. Their Imperial Preference policy is quite consistent with their fiscal views, but while they are entitled to operate their policy while they remain in power it is grossly wrong to impose that policy on other parties who will follow them and have made it very clear that they disagree with it.

I strongly oppose this Amendment, for the simple reason that 10 years is little enough for the purpose in view; and because I think the Conservative party are going to remain in power for at least that period I think it is quite right for the Government to put forward a period of 10 years. Among the many opinions to which the last speaker has given expression the most staggering was his statement that if the Government proceed with this proposal it will mean disaster to some of our Colonies. Surely he was not serious in that statement, because the only hope for our country lies in cementing the bonds of friendship with our Dominions and Dependencies, doing everything possible to strengthen our relationships with them commercially and in other ways. In whatever part of the world we may look we find opposition, and we ought to do everything that is humanly possibly to strengthen the relationship between ourselves and our Colonies as a means of finding more work for our workpeople and improving our trade. When it is said that 10 years is too long a period I would remind hon. Members that this House has the right to alter any laws at any time, and that the House makes treaties with other countries which are to continue for a number of years; and therefore I cannot see why, in such a vital matter as this, we should hesitate about a period of 10 years.

The Labour party object very strongly to the period of 10 years, and so do the respectable remnant of the Liberal party; but hon. Members on this side, anxious to do all that is humanly possible to strengthen our relationships with our Dominions, would enact this legislation not only for two years but for 10 years, and for an even longer period. Business takes time to develop, and there may be many proposals which will require a longer period than two years in order to bring them to fruition. A fear has been expressed that this is an attempt to impose taxation on the food of the people. Let me repudiate that at once, because we have the assurance of our Prime Minister that no such thing will be attempted, and we accept his word, and know that the alarms of hon. Gentlemen opposite are not justified.

I very cordially agree with the hon. Member for North Salford (Mr. Finburgh) about the great necessity for cementing our relations with all the different parts of the Empire, and I differ from him only on what I hope he will consider a very small point, and that is, I do not think Preference is the only kind of Imperial cement. I think the hon. Member, perhaps without intention, rather exaggerated the importance of Preference in this respect. I do not think my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Dominions would take his point of view, although himself a very enthusiastic advocate of Preference. There are a considerable number of other things that come into the question of our relations with the Empire.

As it is often said that it is desirable to get this question out of the party atmosphere, would it not be desirable to concentrate on the object we are both aiming at instead of concentrating attention on one particular means of attaining that object? As regards preferences, while duties are levied on which it is possible to grant preferences to the Dominions, I am myself in favour of voting for those preferences, but that is a very different thing from saying that the party opposite have the right to project themselves into the future with a confidence which does more credit to their hearts than to their heads, and to say they are going to do this, that and the other thing when they know very well—although the Dominions will not know it quite so well—that they have not the power or authority to do it unless they remain in power for the selected period.

If the Financial Secretary and hon. Members opposite will put the matter in a different way they might get some support from this side of the House. Supposing they said "We are going to take measures which will give to the Empire industries concerned a real advantage as compared with industries outside the Empire—whether it is to be done by preference or some other means, but so far as it is possible to do it we will concentrate upon obtaining an agreement with all parties that such a policy shall be adopted," then I think it would be possible to arrive at some more definite form of agreement. It is all very well for hon. Members to concentrate on this question of preference. It is true a preference tax is easy to impose and, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Come Valley (Mr. Snowden) has stated, speaking officially for the Labour party, it is a very easy thing to take off. It is easy to impose, but it is not the only kind of organisation that we want. Personally, I hope that the controversy on this matter, now that it has to a certain extent left the old stage of Free Trade versus Protection, will not enter on a new stage in which it is going to be protection versus every other kind of organisation. We stand for an Empire policy of a very elaborate kind, such as has been worked out by the Labour Party—

The hon. Member seems to be discussing the general question, but it is obvious that this discussion cannot be repeated on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

All I wish to point out is that the policy for which the Labour party is standing is just as much directed to assisting and stabilising the trade of the Empire as the policy of stabilising these methods for a period of 10 years.

I am afraid the hon. Member did not understand what I said. I have no objection to his general argument, but it must not be repeated on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Naturally in this matter I am in the hands of my leaders and advisers, and I do not want to stray too far beyond your ruling. The question of the kind of organisation which we might suggest is indicated in the system adopted when another Government brought in the Stevenson scheme for regulating the rubber production of the world. May I draw attention to the fact that with regard to one very important product, sugar, the duty was stabilised last year, and you have at least half a dozen other factors in regard to that commodity of much more importance than the preference itself. You have transport, you have the use of foreign capital, and you have got a very important group of questions concerned with labour conditions and with medical and sanitary conditions. You are not going to get out of the difficulties of organising the British Empire by putting a preference on certain commodities and saying, "Here we are, we have done all we can for you, comrades of the Empire." [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] In practice that is what you say. You talk a lot about Empire but do very little for it. I am as anxious as hon. Members opposite that we should all work together in this matter, and I should be as delighted as they would be if this question could be lifted out of the party atmosphere. Are hon. Members opposite willing to go into this matter in order to study all the methods of organisation which are necessary? Are they willing to give their support to producers and marketing organisations? [HON. MEMBERS: "We do!"] The whole range of Empire organisation comes in on this question, and preference really plays a very small part in this particular matter. I am putting this point of view because I want it to be put plainly and definitely that while the party on this side of the House as a party—whatever some Members of it may think—is definitely pledged to a removal of all taxation on food, which means the removal of all Preferences, we are also pledged—or, at any rate, a large number of the members of this party are pledged—to a kind of Empire organisation for the benefit of the producers of the Empire, which would be infinitely more advantageous than any Preference duties than can be put on. I feel very acutely that this is a matter of Empire organisation, and while I regard Free Trade as an exploded policy, I am willing to support Empire Preference in the absence of anything better. I think there are many things which are better, and I want to get hon. Members opposite to realise that there is very much more to be got out of a business organisation, such as is growing up in the fruit trade, to control the improvement of trade and other things, which is very much more important than Preference.

To put on Preference taxes does not get to the heart of the difficulty. If we look back to the history of sugar growing we shall see that Empire Preferences have not helped that industry very much because other factors are much more important. If this matter is examined impartially hon. Members will see that, although Empire Preference has a limited value other methods of organisation are much more important. Hon. Members sometimes say that they wish we could get away from the controversy of Free Trade and Protection. I sometimes think that they have so much enjoyed this controversy that they are not willing to get away from it, and they will not consider anything outside the ordinary Protectionist orbit. Those are the points I wanted to put forward because it has been said that there is a very grave division of opinion upon these benches on Preference and trade organisation. It is true that there is a difference of opinion, but it is one about details and not about fundamentals. Give us an opportunity on these benches of voting for a wholehearted scheme of Empire organisation, and you can have all the Preferences you like because they will not be paid any further attention on this side of the House. But until that time some of us on this side will support Empire Preferences because we believe that if they are only a small step they are at any rate one step in the right direction.

We are very grateful for the sentiments which the hon. Member for North Southwark (Mr. H. Guest) has expounded to us, although some of us on this side of the Committee regret they were not a little more clearly and more explicitly defined. It is difficult to understand what proposals he is prepared to support, but in the meantime we gladly welcome his expression of a desire for Imperial unity, and we shall look to the hon. Gentleman to do his best, as he has done in the past, to induce his colleagues to support us in any Imperial legislation. He goaded us a little with not being sufficiently ambitious in our Imperial programme. We endured that cheerfully because we took it as evidence that if we were more ambitious we would have the united support of his party. I agree with one sentence of the speech of the hon. Member for South East Ham (Mr. Barnes) when he said it was desirable that we should leave this question out of party politics. I can agree with him and that is one of the reasons why I welcome this Clause because I hope that when these years have elapsed the seeds of wisdom will so far have grown and extended in the minds of all Members that it will cease to be a party question. I have very little hope of the party so gallantly and lonely represented by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). I do not think that in any of its sections we have any hope of a single seed of wisdom blossoming on this issue. Of the party opposite I have some hope and I trust that as the years go by and this policy becomes a more permanent and settled part of our national life they will join in making it more useful, adaptable and successful. There is no reason why it should not be. There is no serious difference of opinion in the Dominions on the matter of Preference. There is no difference of opinion in Australia and New Zealand as to whether there should be preferences for this country or not. I should like to take up one remark made by the hon. Member for East Ham. He was wrong when he said that these preferences are only given to us by the Dominions when industries in our Dominions are establishing them selves and that they will only give us a preference when their own industries enjoy more protection. There are many preferences given to us—

I said that the fiscal system of the Dominions was primarily for that object.

I cannot accept even that correction. The hon. Member will find for instance, that we get a very valuable preference in motor cars. The Dominions of Australia and New Zealand do not make motor cars. [An HON. MEMBER: "Canada makes motor cars!"] Yes, in Canada they do make motor cars, and there we are getting other preferences in other directions. Certainly the Dominions are building up industries in their own orbit; equally certainly they realise that we in our country cannot put duties on foodstuffs. Within these two limits, then, we have to circumscribe our efforts and work out a policy of preference which will help us both as far as possible. These are the limitations within which we have to realise our aims. I do not think that tariffs are by any means the be-all and end-all, and we do get, I believe, far more value from preferences of a sentimental character. What we have to do is to persuade our people in this country that a sentimental preference can be made of greater value to the Dominions than a tariff preference. We have to realise the ambitions of our Dominions, and equally the sentiments of this country. If we can combine these as we should combine them, if we can evolve a scheme of collective Imperial preference, then this Committee will have done valuable work. It is because I believe that these preferences by being stabilised will add to Empire trade and will enable us to see in future years the way in which we can most usefully work to swell its benefits that I support the Government.

I desire to support the Amendment moved from the Front Bench on this side of the Committee, and I do so because I believe there is in the main a misunderstanding as to the result of the policy put forward by the Government over this matter. The idea on the benches opposite is that the policy of the Government provides for stability; it does not provide for such a thing. The idea also is that it is a reciprocal arrangement with our Dominions; it is not a reciprocal arrangement. They say it is a substantial boon to the Dominions; I deny that it is a substantial boon or that it is appreciable compared to the other things we do or could do for the welfare of the Empire. First of all as to its securing stability The hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Somerville) said it was important in business dealings to know where you were in order that you could build up a trade or a business with the security that a 10 years' limit gives. This proposal does not give that security in any way. Even assuming that these Clauses were not repealed, the proviso which follows the first part of the Clause prevents anything like security because, even with the continuance of these proposals, so long as the duty on any one of the articles concerned can be reduced and reduced, and so long as the Preference is above zero and the import tax cannot fall below zero, the main duty can be reduced until the Preference becomes negligible or nothing at all. There is nothing in this Clause which prevents the duty on any one of these articles being reduced right down to nothing, and then the Preference ceases, so that with this Clause in being there is no absolute security that the Dominions will get any Preference at all. Apart from that, it is well known in this House that any other Government taking the place of the Government now in power can repeal this Clause. Therefore, there is no guarantee that this position will remain stable, and anyone who builds up an industry, as the hon. Member for Windsor suggests, on the supposition that they are guaranteed for 10 years the full value of the Preference which they get at the present time, is building it up under a misapprehension. The stability, therefore, from the point of view of a Dominion is not worth very much.

In the second place, I said that the idea was that this was a reciprocal pro- posal. It is nothing of the sort. The Dominions give us preference and we give them preference at the present time. That is to some slight extent reciprocal, but what we are proposing to do is within the limits of this Clause to guarantee that for 10 years. The Dominions do not give any similar undertaking to us. This is not a part in any way of a treaty between us and any one or all of the Dominions, that if we will give them a 10 years' bargain they will give us a 10 years' bargain. This is a perfectly isolated bargain on our part without any counterpart whatever so far as the Dominions are concerned. Therefore, it is not a reciprocal agreement; it is an agreement purely on our side; and, just for that reason, being, as lawyers would say, without consideration, it remains quite voidable so far as we are concerned.

The third point that I want to make is much the most important of all. It is that this preference does not really give any substantial benefit at all to the Dominions. It is quite true that, if the full policy of the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain had been adopted, if we had put a substantial tax on all foodstuffs produced in the Dominions and had given a substantial preference to the Dominions, then, whatever the result might have been in this country, it would have been, of course, a substantial advantage to the Dominion growers. But all of us on this side of the House, and I think most hon., and even right hon., Members on the other side, know that that policy is one which is outside the realm of practical ideas, and I think the right hon. Gentleman himself said he recognised that it was not a practicable policy. Therefore, we have to write off completely the notion that any substantial preference can be given to the Dominions unless we are going to reverse the whole fiscal policy of this country, and tax food on a substantial scale.

By this proposal nothing of real value to the Dominions in this matter is going to be given, but, as a matter of fact, we are already doing a great deal that is of value to the Dominions—far more than this preference. I think that that is very often forgotten on the other side of the House. Among the important things that we already do, which are a genuine set-off, because they are some- thing comparable to the benefits the Dominions give us, are the great financial advantages that we give them. There is the fact of our making the Colonial loans trustee securities; there is the assistance given generally by the Bank of England in matters of finance; there is the whole defence of the seas, of the expense of which we bear the greater part, calling upon the Dominions only for a very small effort. These are the things which are the real counterpart of the preference which the Dominions give to us, and it is merely playing with the matter to imagine that the small amount we can give in preference is really anything but a sort of ounce weight—a make-weight— in the scale when hundredweights are being weighed on our side of the bargain. That is what we do at present.

I agree very largely with my hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark (Mr. H. Guest) when he said that there were other ways of cementing the Empire, which we on this side put in the forefront of our Imperial programme, and which do not figure in the programme of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I noticed that hon. Members, when my hon. Friend was speaking, were rather derisive, as though it were quite untrue to imagine that the Labour party had a programme of this kind which went beyond that of those on the other side of the House. But it is quite true, because the proposals we should like to see put in force are not only not included in the programme of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but to a large extent they are incompatible with the ideas of private enterprise which hon. Gentlemen opposite hold. It is quite true that the Prime Minister, who often says some very wise things which his followers do not altogether like, did suggest on one occasion that there should be governmental buying of some of the Dominion products. I do not know how far that will be supported. I do not notice any great cheering at the present moment from hon. Members on the benches opposite, because I think that their ideas with regard to Socialism are such that they would not welcome any such proposal. I think, however, I am right in saying that the Prime Minister did refer to it. It was certainly only a casual reference, but still it was mentioned.

That is a policy which we on this side would cordially support, because we do believe that the buying should be done, not by individuals, but on a very much larger scale, and should be done definitely by the Government. One of the lines on which we shall work when we come into power will be to see how we can assist the different parts of the Empire by undertaking block purchases of a great deal of their raw materials and foodstuffs by the Government of this country. What the individuals in the Dominions want is not Preference, but markets. Markets are what they are out for, and it will be a much more efficient method of providing them with markets for the Government of this country to be willing to purchase their goods, than to give them what is, after all, a pettifogging Preference. I do not carry the figures relating to this matter in my head, but I think I am right in saying that the total preference under this scheme is under £1,000,000. We are not now dealing with sugar, which is much the largest point. That is already out of the way; it was dealt with last year. This proposal, so far as it goes, I think I am right in saying—the Financial Secretary will correct me if I am wrong —does not amount to more than £1,000,000, and I think it is considerably under that amount.

I suggest to hon. Members opposite that the various forms of assistance which we actually render to the Dominions at the present time, and the line of assistance which I have indicated, are very much larger than the almost negligible, almost pettifogging form of assistance included in this proposal. This proposal is bad because it starts in the minds of our cousins in the Dominions a false idea that they are getting something stabilised, which they are not, and an idea that this is the thin end of the wedge of a very much larger policy of preference, which they are not going to get. It diverts their attention from the real advantages which they obtain on the economic side from the Imperial relationship, and concentrates their attention upon this quite small thing, which is not a counterpart of the advantages which they give to us. I think that in carrying it, instead of cementing and assisting Imperial friendship, we are striking a blow at it by directing attention to the wrong thing, and I think, therefore, that not only in the interests of sound financial practice in this country, but in the interest of sound Imperial sentiment, the Amendment which seeks to limit the operation of this Clause should be carried.

I think it is a little unfortunate that the last three speakers on the other side did not co-ordinate their thoughts before they spoke. The hon. Member for East Ham South (Mr. Barnes) appeared to regard this proposal as so dreadful, and, therefore, presumably, so important, that it ought to be made perfectly clear that his party would repeal the Clause if they were in power. Next, the hon. Member for North South-wark (Mr. H. Guest) said that, after all, it was a trifling thing compared with the great policies in this direction which could be adopted, but which our party will not adopt and do not approve of. Then, in the third place, we have the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) who drew attention to the great and important policies already in operation, which are so great that they overshadow this piffling policy. I really do not quite know where we are. One hon. Gentleman says it is very important and very evil; the next says it is trifling compared with the things that are going to be done; and the third says it is trifling in proportion to the things that are already being done. I really think a little co-ordination in advance would have been of some use. I was interested to hear the announcement of representatives of the Labour party to-night that, when they come into office, they are going to repeal this Clause, and, therefore, send up the cost of these commodities, because it is just as well that hon. Members and the country outside should realise that their proposal is, on their theory at any rate, one to increase the cost of living. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Through the beneficent activities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year I am now able to buy in my constituency a blend of tobacco half grown in Hampshire, the other half grown in some part of the Empire, for which I pay 7d. an ounce for a quality similar to that for which before his beneficent activities I used to pay Is. an ounce, and I am given to understand that if the hon. Member for East Ham becomes responsible for the finances of the country I shall in future have to pay 1s. an ounce.

The hon. Member will be glad to know that Empire brands of that kind have been on the market for three years.

If the hon. Member will examine these packets he will find a reference on them, or on the leaflets that accompany them, to the Finance Act of last year. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is political propaganda!"] I do not think it can reasonably be believed that the retailer should indulge in that political propaganda, because he stands to make less out of selling an ounce at 7d. than selling it at 1s.

The hon. Member for North Southwark apparently objected, and yet did not object, to this Clause, because he wants other things. I am quite certain that many of the other things he wants I also want, though there are some other things on which we should disagree. He says preferences have had no effect. Surely, if one remembers the history of the development of Preference, if one goes back even to what Mr. Gladstone said in 1868, because that was, I believe the tragic year in which he repealed the preference on South African wines, and dealt a smashing blow at the then prosperous South African wine industry, and did a great deal to alienate the sentiments of the Dutch-speaking population by so doing. What is the use of saying it has only been trifling? One has only to examine the development of our export trade to Canada after the introduction of their Preference in 1897 —and it was a declining trade before that—and the corresponding development of Australian trade after the introduction, I think, in 1904, the corresponding development in the case of South Africa —I think the year was 1905—and the almost amazing development in the case of New Zealand's trade since they introduced Preference, I think, in 1908.

If the hon. Member is referring to what I said, I did not say the value to us of Colonial Preference was small, but the value of this preference to them was small. That is the exact point I was making. And I said this was not the real counterpart. The other things were the counterpart.

I am glad to have an acknowledgment that the preferences they give us are of great importance, because later on the hon. Member went on to point out that this was not part of any bargain and it was not reciprocal. It is reciprocal in this sense. I agree there is no bargain, but it is some beginning of an attempt to acknowledge on our part what they have done in the past and what has been clearly of such overwhelming advantage to our export trade, and if the hon. Member will consult with anyone who is engaged in the export trade to any of these Dominions, and discover the alarm they feel when any of those Governments, for their own proper reasons, decide to make any changes in taxation which are likely to affect adversely any of these preferences, he will find what an overwhelming advantage they represent.

He has brought up against us what Mr. Chamberlain said in 1903, that you could not give effective Preference without taxing the essential foodstuffs of the people. That was broadly true when Mr. Chamberlain said it, but the hon. Member has not brought his information up to date as to Imperial development. If he will take some trouble to examine the amazing developments which are taking place—for example, take cocoa One half of the world's production of cocoa now comes from a British Colony where none was grown 20 years ago. If he will take the possibilities—they have been realised now—in the case of tobacco and dried fruits, if he will take note of the case of sugar, which is outside the Clause, but is part of the whole programme—take coffee. Is he aware that 20 years ago we imported a negligible quantity of coffee from Imperial sources and that we are now importing 25 per cent. of our whole supply from Kenya Colony? Or take the case of tea or wine. All these things are developing rapidly, and it is no use quoting to us what Mr. Joseph Chamberlain may have said perfectly truly 20 years ago, but which is no longer true to-day.

The hon. Member who has just sat down has twitted us with the fact that there was perhaps too little co-ordination in the sentiments which have been expressed from these benches, but I do not think criticism can be confined to those who have spoken from these benches. It applies also to Members on the other side. They are equally divided. Early in the evening the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was asked whether he was or was not in favour of what has been termed the whole hog in Imperial Preference, that is, more general taxes on food. He replied in a very clever way, but he did not convince anyone on this side that he had moved one jot or tittle from his faith of 20 years ago. What we need to emphasise in this Debate is this. The country outside, whenever it has been properly consulted on the question, has declared overwhelmingly against Preference. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It did so with no uncertain voice in 1923 because the electors then had ringing in their ears, at the time the present Prime Minister went to the country on the general question of Protection, the speeches of Mr. Bruce, who had been in this country for the Imperial Conference, and who said in effect, "Give us all the preferences you can, but we want wheat and meat."

Is it not correct that those Resolutions were only lost by five votes in this House?

One of them only. There is no question what the verdict of the electors was. To come back to my point, one of the large influences, in our judgment, upon the Cabinet in 1923 in going to the country was not only the general question of Protection as a cure for unemployment, but the effect left upon the mind of the Cabinet of speeches of the kind that Mr. Bruce made in this country, and the general desire for an extension of Imperial Preference. Nor was there any uncertainty with which that policy was put before the country by the party opposite in 1923. Nor was there any uncertainty as to the verdict of the country.

These are matters of opinion, of course, but we on this side emphatically take an opposite view. We do not think the question of Imperial Preference had anything whatever to do with the decision of the country in 1923, and it did have a very considerable deal to do with the decision in 1924.

It is interesting to hear that the issue placed before the country by the party opposite in 1924 was very largely Imperial Preference. I suppose hon. Members opposite never heard about Zinovieff. We will let that go for what it is worth. The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) seems to have made no reply to the very sound case that was made by the hon. Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence). He knows, and nobody should know better, from his experience of trade, that it is possible to take the values of Preferences and assess them in annual values. We can take the existing Preferences given by all the Dominions on our imports into those Dominions at a fixed figure of something like £14,000,000 or £16,000,000. That is a fairly generous estimate.

That may be the tax value of the Preference, but that is no measure of the additional trade we get through the Preference.

On the other hand we can take exactly the same argument in respect of the Preferences that we are giving to the Dominions. Let us take the value of the Preferences which we give to the Dominions. There is the value of the loaning of cheaper money to the Dominions because of the Colonial Stock and Trustee Act, and so on. There is the value of the subsidy on telegraph and postal services. There is the value of the free use by the Dominions trade representatives of our consular and diplomatic services. There is the value of the cost of the defence of the Empire and the policing of the Empire trade routes. It is true that in recent years the Dominions have taken a bigger share of the latter burden, but it still remains true that in relation to the advantage to the Dominions, we still bear far more than our proper share of that particular charge. These things are definite Preferences, the cost of which is borne by this country, in favour of the Dominions, and if we weigh up what the Dominions have given to us in return, it is certainly true what my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West said, that if we take it on the basis of reciprocity, the Dominions have to give us a great deal more in relation to what we have done for them than they have yet done.

10.0 P.M.

Too little value has been placed upon the fact that in this country the Dominions have the largest market which they can enter in the world. It is a free market—at least, it was free until the present Chancellor of the Exchequer got to work. So much benefit has our market been to the Dominions that if we take the figures of the exports from New Zealand to this country we find that they have very little market except this country. So beneficial to them has been our relationship and our care, without any question of Imperial Preference by tariff jugglery in a fiscal system! That is a great point that we ought to remember when we discuss a question of this kind, and we ought to be able to ask for the advantage of a fiscal system in relation to our imports into the Dominions. There are many commodities made by manufacturers in this country in relation to which if they are to get into the Dominions they have to pay, after every allowance has been made for Preference, a higher rate of duty than they have to pay in many foreign countries which have always been regarded as highly protectionist countries. They have not only to meet the extraordinary cost of carriage over a very long sea voyage, but they have to meet higher protective tariffs, even when Preference has been allowed for, to get into our so-called Dominions markets, than they have to pay to get into foreign countries. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who pays?"] I am very glad to hear hon. Members opposite asking who pays. The consumers in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa pay.

What happens is, that there is a decreased demand for the goods upon which such heavy duty has to be paid. That is obvious. There are many industries, prime industries, in this country which are now heavily taxed in sending goods into the Dominions, because the Dominions are working quite specifically within their fiscal system from the point of view of protecting the home industries, whether against the world or against this country. There is a perfectly plain policy laid down by Governments in the Dominions to allow of their becoming industrially self-supporting. They have every right to do that. We have no objection, so long as it is clearly recognised that that is their aim, and that although they may give us Preferences here and there over foreign competitors, their ultimate aim is to become self-contained, even against the imports from this country.

There is one thing which I have said many times in this House, and I will say it again. Hon. Members opposite talk as though the development of trade with the Empire was going to be a solution of our industrial troubles in this country. I believe it will be a help; but if it is going to be regarded as taking the place of some of our existing trade with the rest of the world, then we are banking upon something which is not going to be very stable. I can see the danger of the development of Empire trade in such a way that it is merely a substitute for trade which is already being done with other parts of the world. That is not going to help us in our present labour and industrial conditions. An Empire development policy must be something which will allow for an increase of business over and above what we are doing in trade with other countries, if it is to be any help to us in our present situation. How far does it help in our development or our retention of trade with other countries to be always trying to show to the world that we are out as far as possible to make the British Empire a self-contained unit? That is not the best way to keep our good trade relationships with the rest of the world, nor is it likely to lead to that economic peace in the world which is so desirable.

There is still, apparently, an idea that if there is a reduction of duty on foodstuffs coming into this country from the Empire there will be an actual reduction in price to the consumer in this country. I should like to make it perfectly clear that that is not so. A leaflet issued from Palace Chambers, the headquarters of the Conservative Association, was used in my constituency on this point at the last election. Because votes had been recorded against the granting of Imperial Preference, it was said we had voted against the reduction of a tax on food. I should like to know from anyone who is connected with the food markets and knows how they go and what the retail prices are, what are the food products upon which Imperial Preference has been granted in the country which have thereby been cheapened to the consumer.

Never. The manipulations of the tea prices in this country have never been on the basis of the Preference. If you examine any of the quotations on Mincing Lane directly after a movement has taken place in the fixing of taxation at Budget time, you will see that all the changes take place on the full figure, on the flat rate of taxation. It has never reference to the special and Imperial rate in respect to tea. I ask any hon. Member who knows anything about sugar what advantage has ever been passed on to the consumer by the Preference given to the producer of sugar in the Empire. The consumer has been charged the same price as would have been charged if there had been no Preference at all. In effect, all that happens is that the consumer pays the same price, and is therefore paying the tax, without any counterbalancing result, and the value of the tax goes to the subsidising of Empire goods. If that is not so, I wonder how it is that hon. Members on the benches opposite talk such a great deal about the necessity for stabilising these Pre-

ferences for ten years in order to give Dominion producers and manufacturers a chance? It is for the reason that they will be able thereby out of the pockets of the poorest consumers in this country to get a subsidy for the industries in the Dominions. It is for that reason that we are definitely against this Imperial Preference at this time and that we are against stabilisation. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) will agree with me that, if we come into office even in the near future—[ Laughter ]—it may be a very big "if," but I have a vivid recollection of recent by-elections, Stockton, Darlington, East Ham, and Hammersmith where the elections have definitely gone against the Government, though the results of these by-elections do not seem to imbue in the hearts of the Government a desire to take an early opportunity of obtaining the opinion of the country—if we come into office early, as I think we shall, there is no question at all that one of the things we shall have to do and will do will be to do away with this stabilisation of Imperial Preference.

Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 118.

Division No. 242.]

AYES.

[10.10 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bullock, Captain M.

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Burman, J. B.

Erskine Lord (Somerset Weston-s.-M.)

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Albery, Irving James

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Everard, W. Lindsay

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Campbell, E. T.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Fermoy, Lord

Apsley, Lord

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Fielden, E. B.

Atkinson, C.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Finburqh, S.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Ford, Sir P. J.

Balniel, Lord

Christie, J. A.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Forrest, W.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Clarry, Reginald George

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Bennett, A. J.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Berry, Sir George

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Betterton, Henry B.

Cooper, A. Duff

Ganzoni, Sir John

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Cope, Major William

Gates, Percy

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Blundell, F. N.

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Goff, Sir Park

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Gower, Sir Robert

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Grace, John

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Grant, J. A.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William dive

Dalkeith, Earl of

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Briscoe, Richard George

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Gretton, Colonel John

Brittain, Sir Harry

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Harland, A.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sandon, Lord

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Malone, Major P. B.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Hawke, John Anthony

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Savery, S. S.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Shaw, Lt.-Col A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Merriman, F. B.

Shaw, Capt. w. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Shepperson, E. W.

Hills, Major John Waller

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Holland, Sir Arthur

Murchison, C. K.

Storry-Deans, R.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Nuttall, Ellis

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Oakley, T.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Hume, Sir G. H.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Hurst, Gerald B.

Penny, Frederick George

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Perring, Sir William George

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Jacob, A. E.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Phillpson, Mabel

Wells, S. R.

Jephcott, A R

Preston, William

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Price, Major C. W. M.

Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Raine, W.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Ramsden, E.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Knox, Sir Alfred

Remer, J. R.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Lamb, J. Q.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Withers, John James

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Wolmer, Viscount

Looker, Herbert William

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Womersley, W. J.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Lynn, Sir R. J

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Rye, F. G.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Salmon, Major I.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

McLean, Major A.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Major Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Margesson.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Greenall, T.

March, S.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Morris, R. H.

Ammon, Charles George

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Murnin, H.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Groves, T.

Oliver, George Harold

Barnes, A.

Grundy, T. W.

Owen, Major G.

Barr, J.

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Palin, John Henry

Batey, Joseph

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Paling, W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Bromley, J.

Hardie, George D.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Potts, John S.

Buchanan, G.

Hayday, Arthur

Purcell, A. A.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hayes, John Henry

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Cape, Thomas

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Riley, Ben

Charleton, H. C.

Hirst, G. H.

Rose, Frank H.

Clowes, S.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Cluse, W. S.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Scrymgeour, E.

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Scurr, John

Compton, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Connolly, M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Cove, W. G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sitch, Charles H.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Kennedy, T.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Dennison, R.

Lansbury, George

Snell, Harry

Dunnico, H.

Lawrence, Susan

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Lawson, John James

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Gardner, J. P.

Livingstone, A. M.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lowth, T.

Stamford, T. W.

Gillett, George M.

Lunn, William

Stephen, Campbell

Gosling, Harry

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Mackinder, W.

Sutton, J. E.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Taylor, R. A.

Thurtle, E.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Tinker, John Joseph

Welsh, J. C.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Whiteley, W.

Varley, Frank B.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Viant, S. P.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson.

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 115.

Division No. 243.]

AYES.

[10.20 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Luce, Maj. Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Lynn, Sir Robert J.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Everard, W. Lindsay

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Albery, Irving James

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Fermoy, Lord

McLean, Major A.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Fielden, E. B.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Apsley, Lord

Finburgh, S.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Atkinson, C.

Ford, Sir P. J.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Balniel, Lord

Forrest, W.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Banks, Reginald Mitchell

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Malone, Major P. B.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Merriman, F. B.

Bennett A. J.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Meyer, Sir Frank

Berry, Sir George

Gates, Percy

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Betterton, Henry B.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Goff, Sir Park

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Gower, Sir Robert

Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

Blundell, F. N.

Grace John

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Grant, J. A.

Murchison, C. K.

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gretton, Colonel John

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Grotrian, H. Brent

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Briscoe, Richard George

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Nuttall, Ellis

Brittain, Sir Harry

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Oakley, T.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Harland, A.

Penny, Frederick George

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hartington, Marquess of

Perring, Sir William George

Bullock, Captain M.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Burman, J. B.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hawke, John Anthony

Phillpson, Mabel

Butler, sir Geoffrey

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Preston, William

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Campbell, E. T.

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Raine, W.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R.(Prtsmth, S.)

Hills, Major John Waller

Ramsden, E.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Remer, J. R.

Christie, J. A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Holland, Sir Arthur

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Clarry, Reginald George

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Clayton, G. C.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

Rye, F. G.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Salmon, Major I.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cope, Major William

Hume, Sir G. H.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.

Hurst. Gerald B.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Sandon, Lord

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Jacob, A. E.

Savery, S. S.

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Jephcott, A. R.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Shepperson, E. W.

Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

King Captain Henry Douglas

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Knox, Sir Alfred

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Lamb, J. Q.

Storry-Deans, R.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Withers, John James

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Wolmer, Viscount

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Wells, S. R.

Womersley, W. J.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Major Hennessy and Captain Margesson.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Riley, Ben

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rose, Frank H.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hardie, George D.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scrymgeour, E.

Barnes, A.

Hayday, Arthur

Scurr, John

Barr, J.

Hayes, John Henry

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Batey, Joseph

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles, H.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromley, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Snell, Harry

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Clowes, S.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cluse, W. S.

Kelly, W. T.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Kennedy, T.

Stamford, T. W.

Compton, Joseph

Kirkwood, D.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Connolly, M.

Lansbury, George

Sutton, J. E.

Cove, W. G.

Lawrence, Susan

Taylor, R. A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lawson, John James

Thurtle, E.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Livingstone, A. M.

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lunn, William

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Day, Colonel Harry

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Varley, Frank B.

Dennison, R.

Mackinder, W.

Viant, S. P.

Dunnico, H.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

March, S.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gardner, J. P.

Morris, R. H.

Welsh, J. C.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Whiteley, W.

Gillett, George M.

Murnin, H.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Gosling, Harry

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Owen, Major G.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Palin, John Henry

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Greenall, T.

Paling, W.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson.

Groves, T.

Potts, John S.

Grundy, T. W.

Purcell, A. A.

CLAUSE 8.—(Remission of customs duties in case of antique articles.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I only intervene because this Clause marks a somewhat important departure, and, if I may say so, a somewhat favourable departure from the fiscal considerations which have moved us in the past. I wish to draw attention to the fact that the Treasury have now recognised the value of preserving antiques in this country. This Clause removes the difficulties which at present exist regarding the import of works of antiquity and beauty into this country. I hope it marks the beginning of a new principle, and that the fiscal machinery may be devoted in future to the preservation of antiques in every direction, and to preventing the loss of antiques as well as assisting their collection. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will gather what is in my mind; I do not wish to go further lest I should be out of Order. I suggest that the principle of this Clause might in future be extended to preventing the removal of ancient buildings and other antiques from this country as well as facilitating the import of antiques into this country.

Lest it should be supposed from the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech that some special new merit is being introduced into our fiscal system by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his consideration for works of art, it is only right to point out that there were no taxes upon antiques at all until the right hon. Gentleman reintroduced the McKenna Duties, which made necessary this remission.

These oppressions to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred date from 10 years ago, and were imposed under a Government which included some of the most distinguished leaders of his party. I admit that the effect of the McKenna Duties and certain other duties upon antiques was not foreseen, nor did it make itself evident till some time afterwards, but once it did make itself evident it seemed to me perfectly clear that Parliament should have an opinion on the subject, and the principle on which we have proceeded for the first time in this Budget is an absolutely plain one. It is to draw a sharp line of distinction between Art and Luxury. Luxuries are a proper subject of taxation, and people who indulge in them may rightly be called upon to pay additional contributions to the upkeep of the State. Art and the possession of artistic objects in this country should not in themselves be destroyed by any indulgence of the individual, but remain a continued source of inspiration and enlightenment, and by the provisions in the Budget this year we affirm that principle. I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that I hope it may be found possible gradually in legislation to make it as easy as possible for works of art to come into this country and be accumulated for the general enjoyment of, the people here, and as hard as possible for them to be sold to foreign countries.

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of what he has said about works of art and the desirability of retaining and maintaining them in this country, whether he will favourably consider exempting them from Estate Duties?

I cannot carry the matter as far as that.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 9.—(Time for payment of Beer Duty.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I do not rise to oppose this Clause, but to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on taking this very wise course, and to put in a claim on behalf of one of my constituents for the paternity of this proposal, for as far back as the middle of February I wrote to the Financial Secretary making this suggestion as the proposal of one of my constituents. It is quite possible that, as great minds come to the same conclusions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my constituent thought of this simultaneously, but in that case my constituent should share the advantage. The original plan of giving a three months' credit was quite justified at the beginning, owing to the very large additional burdens that were being placed on the brewers in imposing this tax, but as time went by and the brewing interests not only recovered their prosperity but made the large sums they have been making recently, and obtained large credit balances, it was quite unreasonable that this three months should still be allowed, and in congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon taking this money for the revenue by reducing that period by one month, I think, the brewers are to be congratulated upon not having that three months' period cut down to one month instead of two months, and some future Chancellor of the Exchequer still has a further month by which he can reduce it when the time comes.

I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the period here is an actual two months or whether we are to understand it is a period varying between one month and two months? If it is the full amount, two months, why does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduce it, and take away the two months? I should like to know whether it is to be reduced to two months? If so, would it then mean that it would not allow any time at all for arrears of duty to be paid in? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain exactly?

The one month for the payment of duty was first extended to two months and then extended to three months. What I have promised to do is to reduce the time allowed by one month, leaving the two months' credit intact. A large number of brewers and brewing companies will, I understand, be satis- fied with that. I believe that it represents a reasonable and equitable manner of handling the whole question. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) did not seem to be quite satisfied. At the same time, the Committee ought to realise that £5,500,000, so far as one particular trade is concerned, is a considerable sum. They have accepted the position in a spirit of acquiescence and even of good will, which is not unsatisfactory.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 10.—(Continuation and amendment of Part I of Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921.)

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921

I beg to move:

"That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, into the conditions in regard to mining and drainage in an area around the borough of Doncaster, in the West Riding of Yorkshire."

The Royal Commission on Mining Subsidences was much impressed with the urgency of problems of the character indicated in the Resolution, and they recommended that this local question should be dealt with by a special Commission with full powers to call for witnesses and documents. We have come to the conclusion that the best machinery for such an Inquiry would be under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921. We propose to follow the recommendations of the first Interim Report. We have already secured as Chairman, Sir Horace Munro, a distinguished ex-civil servant, for many years head of a great Government Department, and one who has recently obtained exceptional experience of drainage questions. As this matter has been impressed upon us by all sides of the House as one of great urgency, I hope we shall be empowered to-night to set up the necessary tribunal.

The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he is following the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Mining Subsidence, but the wording of this Motion would appear to exclude the district called the Isle of Axholme, which was covered by the recommendations of that Commission. Although perhaps he cannot answer me now, will he at some future time look into the matter and see that this Tribunal of Inquiry will go into that area, which is connected with the Doncaster area, but has nothing to do with either the Borough of Doncaster or the West Riding of Yorkshire? It is that part of Lincolnshire which is on the other side of the Trent.

I do not know whether it would be in order for the hon. Member to move to leave out the last words of this Motion. I am afraid this is a new problem. I thought we were following exactly the recommendations of the Commission, which mentioned the Doncaster area, but if there is any local reason for altering the words, and the hon. Member likes to move to omit words, I shall not resist it.

I beg to move, in line 4, to leave out the words "in the West Riding of Yorkshire."

If we leave the Resolution to refer only to the "area around the Borough of Doncaster," that will cover all possibilities with regard to that part of Lincolnshire.

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, again proposed.

May I ask what powers are given to this body? Are they simply to find out what is wrong, or in addition are they to make recommendations as to how to prevent what is now happening?

We propose to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission, which were that a special tribunal should be set up to inquire into the affairs in the Doncaster area, including the efficiency of the existing drainage system. The Commission are not to be limited by the terms of reference to the consideration of land drainage, but are to be empowered to consider and to make recommendations regarding the general development of the area in the best interests of those concerned. I think the hon. Member will see that there is the widest possible latitude for inquiry.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, into the conditions in regard to mining and drainage in an area around the borough of Doncaster."

Unemployment Insurance Bill

Not amended ( in the Standing Committee ) considered; read the Third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjournment

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Commander Eyres Monsell. ]

Adjourned accordingly at a quarter before Eleven of the Clock.