House of Commons
Tuesday, June 8, 1926
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with)
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Connah's Quay Urban District Council Water Bill [ Lords ].
Worcester Corporation Bill [ Lords ].
Abertillery and District Water Board Bill [ Lords ].
Kidderminster and Stourport Tramways Bill [ Lords ].
Reading University Bill [ Lords ].
Colwyn Bay and Colwyn Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ].
Margate Corporation Bill[ Lords ].
Bills to be read a Second time.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with)
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Tramways Provisional Order Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time To-morrow.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO Standing Orders applicable)
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:
Marriages Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order Bill.
Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
Paignton Urban District Council Bill ( Prince of Wales' Consent signified ),
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Southern Railway Bill, To be read the Third time To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Steamship "Tainui."
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the expenditure incurred and paid from public funds in respect of the transport of the emigrants to New Zealand by the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company's steamer "Tainui," which sailed from Southampton on the 8th January, 1926?
The total expenditure incurred under the Empire Settlement Act in respect of the passages of assisted migrants who proceeded by this vessel was £2,687 5s. The number of assisted migrants was 86 men, 89 women, 74 children.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider an investigation into the conditions under which it is alleged that these people were compelled to travel?
Was not that question very effectively answered yesterday?
Trade and Commerce
Iron and Steel Industry
asked the President of the Board of Trade, approximately, what quantity of British coal would have been required if the iron and steel manufacturers thereof imported in 1925 had been made in this country?
The net imports into this country of iron and steel and manufactures thereof in 1925 amounted to 2,712,271 tons. Owing to the variety of these imports it is not possible to make a close estimate of the amount of coal which would have been required if they had been produced in this country; but, as has already been stated on behalf of the Board of Trade in this House, the quantity of coal in question would probably be between 7,000,000 and 10,000,000 tons.
In view of the fact that the Report of the Royal Commission on Coal stated that the only hope of greatly-increased consumption of coal at home was in the improvement of the steel trade, will my right hon. Friend now, in connection with the coal crisis, reconsider the whole question of steel?
I was asked a specific question to which I gave a specific answer. I cannot add to it.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state how much our coal output could be reduced in case we did not export our steel or anything else?
I should certainly require notice of that question, and I rather doubt whether, if I had notice, I could give the information.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the large increases in the monthly returns of imports of iron and steel; if he is aware that in the month of April the figure reached the record of 261,787 tons as compared with the average monthly figure in 1913 of 185,000 tons; that each fall in the French franc increases the volume of these imports; and if, in view of the recent serious disclosures in the balance sheets of important iron and steel manufacturers showing the loss of many thousands of pounds, he will state what action the Government intends to take or is taking, to deal with the situation?
I am aware of the import figures mentioned by my hon. Friend in the second part of the question. With regard to the remainder of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Prime Minister on the 21st December.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that under the powers conferred by Congress the American Treasury have already taken steps to offset the action of the German steel interests in granting a bounty to German iron and steel manufacturers on exports, he proposes to take any countervailing steps to prevent unfair competition in this country?
I have been asked to reply. If the effect of the German arrangements to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers is that German iron and steel products are sold or offered for sale in this country at prices below the cost of production as defined in the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, a complaint to that effect can be made to the Board of Trade under Section 2 (1) ( a ) of that Act.
Have not the Government already refused to permit the steel industry to have an inquiry under that Act?
No. I thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman's knowledge of the Act was so meticulous that he would realise that this was a dumping question.
British Manufactures (Exports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of the exports of British manufactures to the remainder of the British Empire and to foreign countries, respectively, during the first quarter of 1926 and, for comparison, the corresponding average quarterly figures for 1913?
As I explained to my hon. and gallant Friend in an answer on 20th April, particulars of our exports of manufactures (as apart from those of food and raw materials) to individual countries are only compiled in respect of calendar years. But taking the figures of British produce and manufacture, the declared values of our exports were as follow: First quarter, 1926, to the British Empire, £86,851,000 (of which £8,903,000 represented exports to the Irish Free State); to foreign countries £102,744,000. The corresponding average quarterly figures for 1913 were £48,828,000 and £82,486,000, respectively. In the 1913 figures the Irish Free State is, of course, included in the United Kingdom.
Will my right hon. Friend consider whether it is not possible —unless it involves considerable cost— to get out the figures with regard to manufactured quantities?
No, that would really be a very costly thing to do. My hon. and gallant Friend knows that I do get out at regular intervals a statement of the general distribution of our markets.
Is it not a fact that the Tariff Reform League publishes comparatively accurate figures of these trades, and are not these figures published in great detail?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is perhaps more acquainted with that than I am.
Commercial Motor Vehicles
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the number and value of commercial motor vehicles manufactured in this country in 1925; and the number and value of such vehicles imported from abroad during the same period?
I regret that I am unable to state the number or value of commercial motor vehicles manufactured in the United Kingdom in 1925. Six hundred and fifty-five complete commercial vehicles, valued at £113,339, were imported into the United Kingdom in that year, and 212, valued at £32,097, re-exported. In addition, 3,740 chassis for commercial vehicles, valued at £537,616, were imported in the second half of 1925, and 52, valued at £11,588, were re-exported. Particulars of the imports of commercial chassis in the first half of 1925 are not available.
Will my right hon. Friend give an idea of the proportion of British manufactured vehicles and imports?
I am afraid I could not do that. It is that kind of question, the answer to which is important, for which I so much want a census of production.
Did the figures of imported commercial vehicles include those imported in parts and assembled in this country?
I have given the figures for complete vehicles and for chassis.
British Films
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any recent efforts have been made to secure the showing of a percentage of British films on the screens of this country and throughout the Empire, and with what results; and whether this question is definitely to be placed on the agenda to be considered at the forthcoming Imperial Conference?
As regards the first of the question, I am awaiting a report from the cinema industry on certain proposals which' I have placed before it. As I stated on the 27th April, His Majesty's Government are proposing that this question should be placed on the agenda of the Imperial Conference.
Sugar (Imports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that sugar refiners in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Germany and other Continental countries are dumping sugar in this country; whether the British refiners who handle Empire cane sugar products have any protection against this policy; and, seeing that these sugar refiners have, in addition, to face competition by State assistance, to which they are bound to contribute, whether he will investigate the whole matter to see if fairer treatment can be secured for the British refiners?
I have no evidence of the prevalence of any such practice. The imports of refined sugar from Europe have been less in quantity in the first four months of this year than in the corresponding period of 1925, whilst the imports of unrefined sugar from all countries into the United Kingdom have increased.
Questions
Safeguarding of Industries (Wrapping Paper)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, as a result of the tax on wrapping paper, the prices of British made wrapping paper have already advanced to those charged by the foreign manufacturer, and that approximately 70 per cent. of the total export of Swiss chocolates is imported into this country and escapes the taxation imposed on British firms by keeping the wrapping paper below the 15 per cent. limit; and what action he proposes to take to remove this anomaly which gives a direct bounty to the foreign manufacturer and penalises British firms?
As regards the first part of the question, I have made careful inquiries, and am satisfied that the prices of British wrapping papers have not been advanced as a result of the duty. With regard to the remainder of the question, the Government's proposals in respect of the Wrapping Paper Duty are before the House.
Mining Subsidence (Royal Commission)
asked the President of the Board of Trade when it is likely that the Report of the Royal Commission appointed to consider the question of subsidence in mining areas will be presented?
I am informed that the preparation of this Report has unavoidably been delayed, and that it is impossible to say with confidence when it is likely to be ready.
Is it not a matter of considerable importance to urge on the publication of the Report, in view of some of the recommendations of the Royal Commission?
It is very important, and I hope that the Report will soon be ready, but of course I cannot say when.
Has the Commission had any sittings lately?
I believe it has been sitting regularly, but I cannot answer definitely offhand.
Seamen (Landing Permits)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the practice of certain shipping companies in paying off coloured and other foreign seamen in British ports without making arrangements to repatriate them to their own countries, and whether he is prepared to take any steps to prevent this practice?
I have been asked to reply. Every seaman, unless in possession of satisfactory evidence to show that he is a British subject, must obtain leave from the immigration officer before he can land in the United Kingdom. Except in the case of those alien seamen who have been signed on in the United Kingdom for the round voyage or are domiciled in this country, leave to land for discharge is granted very sparingly, and when granted is frequently subject to the condition of repatriation or removal from the United Kingdom under a responsible guarantee.
Does not my hon. and gallant Friend see that in the case of shipping being paid off, all these men have willy nilly to come ashore, that his officials have to allow them to come ashore, and in the seamen's homes they become chargeable?
Obligation is frequently placed on shipowners to see that they are taken to some other country. They are not necessarily allowed to live in this country.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that certain British subjects born abroad, coloured men, are not allowed to land in England unless they have signed alien forms?
That has nothing to do with the Home Office. Any question with regard to British seamen, of whatever colour, is a question for the Board of Trade, and not for the Home Office.
Did not the Home Secretary give me an undertaking that the alien certificate would be cancelled, and it has not been cancelled?
That is another matter.
British Army
Leicestershire Regiment (Lieutenant F. J. Houghton)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. F. J. Houghton, late Lieutenant, 7th battalion Leicestershire Regiment, has applied for his War gratuity; that, owing to ill-health caused by wounds received in action, he was unaware that he was entitled to it, and has been informed by the War Office that the gratuity cannot be allowed him although it is acknowledged that he is entitled to it; and whether he will state the reason why this gratuity has not been paid to Mr. Houghton?
The circumstances of this case have been reviewed, and I am glad to say that, after consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, it has been found possible to reconsider the decision previously given, and to authorise the issue of the gratuity in question to Mr. Houghton.
Lieutenant Glendinning
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is now in a position to state at what investigation held to inquire into the truth of his allegations against the Indian military authorities Lieutenant Glendinning was afforded the opportunity of being present; if the evidence of the witnesses wishing to give evidence on behalf of this officer was taken at the investigation; and if the evidence given against him was subject to cross-examination by a legal representative of Lieutenant Glendinning?
Statements in writing from Mr. Glendinning and from those who gave evidence on his behalf were considered by the Army Council in connection with this officer's appeal under Section 42 of the Army Act, on which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War in the Socialist Government found himself unable to advise His Majesty to issue any special instructions. As I stated on 27th April last, there is nothing to warrant the case being reopened.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give me a reply to the last part of the question?
I think that follows from the first part of my reply. I stated that written evidence was given, and, of course, it is impossible to cross-examine on written evidence.
I wish to know whether Lieutenant Glendinning was allowed to be legally represented at this inquiry, and whether that legal representative was not entitled to cross-examine the witnesses who were oral?
That is covered by the first part of my answer. The case was considered by the Army Council on the written appeal of this officer, and he was not represented by counsel, nor were his witnesses actually heard. Witnesses' written statements were considered by the proper appeal, to the Army Council.
Is it not a fact that some of the witnesses heard against this man were persons who had recently been convicted under the criminal law; and does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it fair to the man that he should not have ben allowed a legal representative who could cross-examine such witnesses?
I consider no man could have a fairer hearing or judgment than he receives at the hands of the Army Council.
Ordnance Services (Civilian EmployéS)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any rule book is issued to civilian employés in the Army Ordnance Services indicating the conditions on which they are employed; when the last rule book was revised and issued; whether the self-discharge by two consecutive days' absence without leave has been superseded by Rule 65; and, if so, when and by what means was Rule 65 made known to the workmen?
As regards the first and second parts of the question, the regulations applicable to employés of the Army Ordnance Services are the standing orders and regulations of the Royal Arsenal and Royal Dockyard, Woolwich. Storeholders and the principal foremen have copies and any employé can see them. The present edition was published in 1904 and amendments and notices referring to the Regulations are published in departmental orders which are exhibited on the notice board. As regards the third and fourth parts of the question, the regulation as to self-discharge by two consecutive days' absence is not superseded by Rule 65; the former relates to absence without leave, the latter to notice required before leaving. Both rules are of long standing, well-known to the employés concerned, and are normally observed by them.
Royal Artillery Artificers
asked the Secretary of State for War when it is expected that the Report of the Committee which was appointed to consider the promotion of Royal Artillery artificers will be published?
The Committee in question was a Departmental Committee whose Report will not be published.
Questions
Official Documents
asked the Secretary of State for War if inquiries were made of the officer responsible for the safe keeping of the official confidential documents, referred to in the book entitled "As Others See Us," now withdrawn from publication, one of which, relating to the late Commandant, Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, the Army Council offered to recall; if so, when the document came into existence and when it passed into unauthorised hands; and whether he is aware that the resignation of the Commandant referred to took place on 19th February, 1921, and that the said document was not in existence before that date?
I do not know to which officer the hon. Member refers. The answer to the remaining questions is in the negative.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that questions on this subject have already been put to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, who has said that he does not know how the document passed to other hands?
The hon. Gentleman mentions several documents, and I do not know to which officer he refers.
Land Court, Scotland (1925 Report)
asked the Secretary for Scotland when the Report of the Land Court for 1925 will be available?
It is anticipated that the Report will be issued shortly.
Coal Trade Dispute
Safety Men
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that recently Mr. G. Sowerby, normally employed as a clerk, while acting as a safety man at Messrs. Pease Partners' (Limited) colliery at Eldon, county Durham, was seriously injured; and whether he will take steps to ensure that experienced men only will, in future, be permitted to undertake the duties of safety men at collieries?
I am informed that Mr. Sowerby was not acting as a safety man at the colliery when he was injured on 2nd May, but was engaged in working a hand winch at the coke ovens adjoining the colliery. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
Hours and Wages, Russia
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the fact that the information is not given in the Report of the Royal Commission on Coal, as in the case of other European countries, he can state what number of men are engaged in the coal mines of Russia, what are the hours worked, and what are the rates of pay?
In the first quarter of 1925 there were 185,300 persons employed in the production of coal in the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. The Soviet Labour Code lays down a six-hour working day underground—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—hon. Members had better wait, and hear the rest of the answer—and a weekly period of rest of 42 continuous hours for all workers. But it is understood that neither of these provisions is generally observed, and that eight or even 10 hours a day are commonly worked. The average weekly earnings of coal miners in the Donetz coalfield were about 25s. in February and 27s. 6d. in March of this year. Wages and conditions of service in Russia are determined by the State.
Do these figures not disclose the fact that, both as to wages earned and hours worked, the Russian miner is in a desperate condition compared with the workers in this country?
Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman any reliable information that the legal hours are not being observed in Russia? I was in Russia, and I know.
My information comes from the Central Administration of Statistics of the U.S.S.R., the British Trade Commissioner in Moscow, and the International Labour Office.
By what right does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman make this statement? By my own evidence, the legal hours are being carried out in the mines each day.
I do not see how the hon. Gentleman can possibly know that unless he has been working in the coalfield.
I was underground in the mines.
Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say how it is that these very underpaid workmen managed in two days to subscribe a month's wages to the strike fund of the British miners?
Mineral Royalty Owners, West Yorkshire
asked the Secretary for Mines if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the mineral royalty owners in West Yorkshire?
I am afraid that this information is not in my possession.
As this information is so easily obtainable, is not the real reason for that answer because the right hon. and gallant Gentleman himself, and many of his hon. and right hon. Friends opposite, are mineral royalty owners in that area?
No, the real reason is that my Department has no official connection with royalties. The only contact which the Government have with them, is in regard to taxing power, and if the hon. Member puts down a question to the Treasury he may get this information. I have not got it.
Imported Coal
asked the Secretary for Mines the number of ships which have brought coal to British ports for discharge since the 1st May, 1926; the amount of tons so discharged; the value of such quantities; and the countries of origin?
The approximate quantity of foreign coal discharged in British ports since the 1st May is 87,000 tons from 110 ships. The coal was all from the Continent (France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, and Poland). I have not yet information as to its value.
Is there any truth in the report that Soviet Russia is now exporting coal due to the fact that Russia has secured markets during the dispute?
The question which I was asked was as to coal coming into British ports and up to now I have heard of no Russian coal.
Why is it that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has information on this particular question, which relates to the Board of Trade, but he could not give us any information in reply to the previous question on royalties?
For the simple reason that this is information which I have got and the other is information which I have not got.
Then, may I ask, can the right hon. Gentleman not get knowledge on the matter dealt with in the previous question, as he has on this particular matter, and thereby escape the charge of ignorance?
Mobile Reserves of Coal
( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certain British steamers are being detained by the competent port authorities and being used as warehouses for comparatively small quantities of coal; whether the Government intend to compensate the owners of steamers so detained; and whether it would not be more economical for such action to be taken as would immediately free such vessels as have only small quantities of coal on board so that they may as far as possible be free to resume their normal employments?
I do not know whether you are aware, Mr. Speaker, that this subject was raised by a private notice question last week, and was debated in the House?
I recollect the Debate, but I thought the hon. and gallant Member had some special point in this question as regards vessels with only small quantities of coal on board.
Certain vessels, owned in the port of Hull, are being detained and they are the cases about which I am asking the right hon. Gentleman. They are quite fresh cases, and that is the reason I have raised this matter.
The question, which is quite general in its terms, is directed to the general practice. It is the same question as was raised in Debate last week. Vessels with full cargoes and a few with part cargoes are being held up at various ports as a mobile reserve for use in the event of a continuance of the dispute in the coal industry, and the possible necessity for the movement of coal to districts where needs become urgent. Under the Emergency Regulations, and following the precedent of other emergencies, His Majesty's Government do not admit any liability in respect of demurrage on such steamers. But I have consulted the Chamber of Shipping in this matter, and it is anticipated that arrangements which have been made will distribute the burden as equitably as possible. No vessel is detained unless, in the opinion of the responsible authorities, the coal is likely to be required for urgent national needs.
What is the object of detaining a vessel —I have given the right hon. Gentleman details—of nearly 4,000 tons, but has only V00 tons of coal on board.
The necessity for detaining all vessels which are detained is in order that mobile resources, of coal may be available. In every case vessels are dealt with on their merits, and as fairly as possible to all concerned. I cannot possibly give a decision in one case which might grant a special privilege to a particular ship and would be relatively disadvantageous to others.
Are we to understand that the answer of the right hon. Gentleman means that the Government are going to admit claims in certain circumstances from shipowners, but will refuse to admit claims from the owners of cargoes?
If the hon. Gentleman reads the answer, he will see that it states exactly what is the practice, and it is the same procedure which has been adopted in every other emergency.
Transport
Beet Sugar Carting
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received any complaints from county authorities where beet-sugar factories have been established that the condition of the roads has been considerably aggravated by the extensive carting of beet sugar; and, if so, whether he will give the counties from which these complaints have emanated?
Representations of this nature have reached me from Norfolk and Suffolk.
Omnibuses, London
asked the Minister of Transport the total number of omnibuses licensed in the Metropolitan Police area at the present time; how many of these are owned by proprietors of a single omnibus; how many are owned by proprietors independent of the London General Omnibus Company, and what is the total number of such proprietors?
I have been asked to answer this question. The number of motor omnibuses licensed in the Metropolitan Police district on 31st May last was 4,910. 109 omnibuses were licensed to proprietors of one motor omnibus only. The total number licensed to proprietors independent of the London General Omnibus Company was 478. There are 184 such proprietors.
Heavy Motor Traffic
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the delay in the introduction of the Road Vehicles Bill and the difficulties that are being encountered by manufacturers of motor omnibuses, chars-à-banc, and goods vehicles, he has now considered the desirability of making and issuing orders giving effect, so far as his existing statutory powers allow, to the recommendations made in the year 1922 by the Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles in regard to revised weights and speeds of heavy motor cars, and to the recommendations made in May, 1925, by the Departmental Committee on the Licensing and Regulation of Public Service Vehicles in regard to the specification of such vehicles?
I have had in mind the possiblity of giving effect to the suggestion contained in my hon. Friend's question should an opportunity for introducing the proposed legislation be delayed much longer. It would in my opinion be far preferable, however, to deal with the whole question in one amending and codifying Bill, and in any case I am afraid that my powers under the existing law, particularly in respect of public service vehicles, are very restricted, but I will further consider the matter.
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the possibility of introducing this Bill so that the House and the country may see his intentions in the matter?
I think I would rather see the Electricity Bill passed into law first.
Is there any possible relationship between the two; and is it not desirable that the Government's intentions in relation to weights and speeds of heavy traffic should be known?
Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is a growing feeling throughout the country that the Ministry of Transport is about the slowest thing as regards transport in this country?
My hon. Friend is entirely misinformed.
When does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman expect the Electricity Bill to be passed?
Football Matches
asked the Minister of Transport whether any reply has been received to the representations made by the London Traffic Advisory Committee to the English Football League, asking for the reconsideration of the decision that the Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur football teams should play all home matches during the 1926–27 season on the same dates, thereby causing serious transport difficulties in North London, and particularly at Finsbury Park?
As the hon. Member is aware, representations have been made to the Football League upon this subject by the London Traffic Advisory Committee, with his assistance, and I am happy to say that I have to-day heard from the Football League that they have been good enough to rearrange the fixtures so that the Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur teams will only play at home together on three Saturdays during the season instead of 17 as originally proposed. I am much indebted to the League for the ready and important assistance they have given.
New Roads (London and Home Counties)
asked the Minister of Transport if he can give the House the mileage of new roads which have been constructed in London and the home counties during the past 12 months?
I assume that my hon. Friend's question relates to the new roads constructed by local authorities with assistance from the Road Fund, and opened to traffic within the past 12 months. The length of such roads in London and the home counties is approximately 21 miles.
Is there any up-to-date map available to show where these new roads are?
No, but if my hon. Friend wants one, I will supply him with it.
Licensed Chars-A-Banc
asked the Minister of Transport if he is able to give the number of licensed chars-a-banc in the United Kingdom, together with their carrying capacity?
I regret that it is not possible from the returns available to extract the information sought by my hon. Friend, and I doubt whether it would be possible to obtain reliable figures from any source, as no separate return of chars-a-banc, as distinct from omnibuses, is made.
Housing
Cowes, Isle of Wight
asked the Minister of Health whether the Urban District Council of Cowes, Isle of Wight, have yet taken adequate steps to remedy the state of the housing in parts of their area of which formal complaint was made by two justices about 12 months ago, and which has been known to the Government inspector for a still longer period; and, If not, what steps he proposes to take?
This matter has been the subject of correspondence with the District Council, following on the visit made by one of the Ministry's Inspectors to Cowes in February last. My right hon. Friend understands that a committee of the district council have under consideration the making of an improvement scheme with respect to a part of the area of which complaint has been made.
While appreciating the answer as to the activities of the Ministry of Health in regard to this matter, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to see that these rules are carried out as soon as possible, as when there is heavy rain the houses in which these people are living are flooded, so that the people cannot live on the ground floor?
I think I had better wait till the scheme has been sent by the council.
Cottages in Rural Areas
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the large number of cottages in certain rural areas intended for workers in those areas and now occupied as weekend residences by the inhabitants of neighbouring cities; and whether he proposes to take any steps to remedy this?
My right hon. Friend is aware that in some rural districts a certain amount of conversion of cottages has been reported. He has no power enabling him to intervene in such cases, but where local authorities are building cottages themselves or giving subsidies to contractors, it is open to them to impose conditions limiting the occupation of the houses to agricultural or other workers.
Will the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Minister of Health to the fact that this problem is especially serious where the cottages are attractive and picturesque, as in Warwickshire and in the neighbourhood of great cities such as Birmingham?
Does not the hon. Gentleman's answer indicate that it is very much better for cottages to belong to an adjacent landed estate?
Questions
West Ham Guardians
asked the Minister of Health the total amount of debt now owing to the Ministry of Health by the West Ham Guardians; and if he proposes to make further advances if approched by the guardians?
The present debt of the guardians is £1,975,000. My right hon. Friend has received an application for a further loan and is in communication with the guardians in regard to it.
Is there to be any limit to the debt that may be incurred by these local bodies?
My hon. Friend must understand that definite conditions are now laid down, which will have to be carefully adhered to before any further money is advanced.
How much per head of the population does this £1,900,000 represent?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend had better give notice of that question.
Will the hon. Gentleman state how far this £1,900,000 went to relieve destitution in West Ham?
I think to a very considerable extent.
asked the Minister of Health if he proposes to introduce a Bill giving necessary powers to the Minister of Health to supersede boards of guardians in certain circumstances such as in the position which the West Ham Guardians have now reached?
While in certain contingencies my right hon. Friend might have to ask Parliament for further powers in this matter, he hopes that those contingencies will not arise.
Alcoholic Liquors (Sale in Clubs)
asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Southborough's Committee has yet reported regarding disinterested management; and whether any action is to be taken this Session in regard to the sale of intoxicating liquor in clubs?
I have been asked to reply. The answers to both parts of the question are in the negative. I may add that the Home Secretary has not, as some hon. Members have been mistakenly informed, referred any general question relating to clubs to the Committee referred to in the question, but has postponed all questions relating to licensing legislation till that Committee has reported.
As this is rather a special Committee, collected in order to deal specially with intoxicating liquors, does the Home Secretary mean to refer the question of drink in clubs to them, or does he mean to appoint another Committee?
The Home Secretary is not coming to any decision in regard to clubs until this Report has been received.
Scared!
Is it not an insult to the clubs of British working men to describe them as "drinking clubs"?
Are not drinking clubs known to the United States?
Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman give me any idea as to when he expects that Report?
Of course, there is a great deal to discuss in regard to this Committee, but it is hoped that the Report will be issued during the autumn.
Broadcasting
Controversial Statements
asked the Postmaster-General if he is in a position to make any statement on the matter of the editorial reviews now being broadcast by the British Broadcasting Company?
I have been in communication with the British Broadcasting Company on this subject, and I understand that care is now being taken to avoid the broadcasting of statements which might be regarded as being of a controversial character.
Wireless Installations
asked the Postmaster-General if, taking the different counties of England, Wales, and Scotland, he will state the respective numbers of broadcasting installations of any sort, basing his figures upon the licences taken out?
Information is not available as to the number of licensed wireless installations in each county and the cost of compiling such a return would be considerable and would hardly be justified. The total number of wireless licences at present in force in Great Britain and Northern Ireland is about 2,050,000.
Post Office
Alcoholic Liquor Advertisements
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has authorised a display of advertisements of alcoholic beverages in post office and telephonic cabinets; and what is the annual revenue it is anticipated will be raised by means of these advertisements?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; to the second, that no data are available; but the orders obtained in the few working days since the removal of the embargo give ground for expecting the annual revenue to be substantial.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is a good policy for the Government to have these enticing advertisements of alcoholic drinks put up in Post Offices?
May I ask if the Liberal party are opposed to the taxation of alcohol?
There cannot be a debate on this question now.
EmployéS' Unions
asked the Postmaster-General whether any, and, if so, how many, postal officials are enrolled in a union which claims the right to direct them to withdraw their service from the State at any time when the officials of the union consider it desirable to issue a mandate to this effect, whether the matter at issue be the direct concern of such postal officials or not, irrespective of their duty to the State?
I am not aware that the constitution of any union of Post Office servants invests its officials with such powers as those referred to in my hon. Friend's question.
Is it not a fact that in the recent general strike intimation was given to the Union of Postal Servants that they must stand by, pending orders from the Trade Union Congress; and are they not under the authority of the Trade Union Congress, and is that compatible with their duty as State servants?
As I have said to my hon. Friend in my reply, I do not find anything in the constitution of any union of Post Office servants which invests its officials with such powers.
Questions
Ministry of Agriculture (Expenses of Witnesses)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the scales of expenses which are allowed to agricultural labourers and other persons who are invited to attend and give evidence in London before Departmental Committees or conferences convened by the Ministry?
As the reply is rather long, and contains a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say if there are cases where an agricultural labourer has been called to London as early as nine in the morning, has been retained all day, and has only received his travelling expenses?
I should like notice of that question.
Following is the reply :
The following allowances for expenses are in force for witnesses summoned to attend before Departmental Committees or conferences convened by the Ministry. The scale is similar to that in operation in other Departments.
Subsistence Allowances. £ s. d. Physicians, Surgeons, Barristers, Civil Engineers and (in some instances) Architects 3 3 0 * Solicitors, Land Surveyors remunerated by fees and Chartered Accountants 2 2 0 * Witnesses not in any of the categories above or below 1 5 0 * Tradesmen 18 9 * Mechanics 12 6 * Labourers and others from 7s. 6d. to 9 6 * * For each night (covering a period of 24 hours) during necessary detention from home.For each night (covering a period of 24 hours) during necessary detention from home.
N.B.—The extra allowances above the 25s. rate in the first two cases are intended only for witnesses in actual private practice in these professions; they do not apply to whole-time salaried officials or to those who have retired from the active practice of their profession.
Day Allowance.
When a witness to a committee is obliged to be absent from home for not less than eight consecutive hours, but does not sleep away from home, a day allowance may be paid to him to cover personal expenses equal to one-third of the appropriate night allowance given above.
Travelling Expenses.
Witnesses will be repaid their actual and necessary expenses of locomotion by public conveyance, or where no public conveyance is available, such sum as may seem reasonable to the Ministry.
Compensation for Loss of Time.
Workmen following their trades who suffer actual loss of wages through attendance as witnesses may, in certain circumstances, receive compensation for loss of time in addition to subsistence allowance.
General Medical Council
asked the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether the Lord President's nominations to the General Medical Council are made for life, or on what basis?
The nominations of His Majesty, on the advice of His Privy Council, to the General Medical Council are made for five years under the Medical Acts.
asked the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether, seeing that the Lord President controls a large number of nominations to the General Medical Council, he will nominate at once, or at the earliest possible moment, a number of non-professional persons, in view of the fact that the one just appointed can not possibly fill his role adequately if alone amongst 37 other medical members?
The Crown nominees to the General Medical Council are five in number, and nominations can only be made under the Statute when vacancies occur.
Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Booth v. Amalgamated Marine Workers' Union; and whether, in view of the remarks of the learned Judge, he will give instructions that the papers therein be referred for the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown?
I have been asked to reply. My attention has been called to the judgment in this case, and it is receiving consideration.
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take into consideration that the sum of £38,000 is said to have been expended as administration expenses by this union, and only £3,000 distributed, and that a large number of ballot papers were forged, and is it not time that the working classes should be protected?
The hon. Member seems to be contributing information.
Is not this a case to which the attention of the Public Prosecutor should be called?
As I have already said, the matter is receiving consideration, and until I have duly considered it, I am not in a position to say what action will be taken.
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether he will make inquiries of the Registrar-General of Friendly Societies as to why he is taking no action?
At the moment I prefer to consider the judgment, before I decide what action, if any, should be taken.
While consideration is going on, is there to be no protection at all for trade unionists in this country against this kind of thing?
May we take it that this is a decision that has been given in favour of the workers, hence the whole Tory party are up in arms against it?
Finance Bill
Co-Opeeative Societies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of taxing the profits of co-operative societies at the source to place them on a more equitable footing in regard to taxation with other sections of the trading community?
I have received representations on this subject from many quarters, but if my hon. Friend will refer to the Report of the Royal Commission on the Income Tax (Command Paper 615 of 1920), which went very fully into the subject of the Income Tax assessment of co-operative societies, he will see that the conclusion was reached that the tax paid by these societies and their members under the legal provisions which govern their case does not greatly differ from that which would be payable under general Income Tax law. This being so, I came to the conclusion, after considering the whole subject, that the revenue at stake did not justify the expenditure of Parliamentary time, and I may say the amount of political controversy which would inevitably have been involved.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that the trading organisations in the country feel they are put upon an unfair basis, and that they look to this Government to put fair play above every other consideration?
It is not the time for speeches on the question.
Super-Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why Super-tax payers were not notified of the Treasury's grant of discount on prepaid Super-tax; and whether he will now do so and with draw his decision to rescind this arrangement, which only failed to function owing to ignorance as to its existence?
The practice which had grown up of granting a small discount if applied for was without legal sanction; the arrangement could not, therefore, be generally notified, and on the question being raised in Parliament, I decided that the concession should be withdrawn. Inquiry which I have made indicates that it would not be worth while to introduce legislation sanctioning a general grant of discount on prepayment of Super-tax; the discount in the vast majority of cases would amount only to a very trifling sum.
Would it not be of advantage to the State to have this money in advance?
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, where an addition is made to wages either by way of bonus or by way of a fixed share in the profits or otherwise in a profit-sharing or co-partnership scheme, the employer is nevertheless charged with Income Tax on the whole of the profits in the business, irrespective of the payment so made?
No, Sir. Where the employés receive wages and a bonus varying with the profits of the employer, the whole of the payments made to the employés—wages and bonus—is allowable as a deduction in the computation of the employer's profits for Income Tax purposes. Where the employés are shareholders, although the dividends payable to them as shareholders are, like other dividends, not allowable as a deduction from the profits of the business, the appropriate tax may be deducted from the dividends in the ordinary course so that no burden falls upon the employer, while the employé will subsequently receive by repayment or otherwise every relief to which he is entitled by reference to his circumstances and to the total amount of his income. In appropriate cases the authorities are ready to make arrangements for simplifying the collection of tax on co-partnership dividends where deduction involves undue inconvenience to shareholders.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a large number of persons who would be willing to have Income Tax on their War Loan dividends deducted at the source are prevented from doing so by reason of the fact that, in the year of transfer from one system to the other, the taxpayer is involved in the payment of double Income Tax, owing to the rule that, for Income Tax purposes, Income Tax on interest un-taxed at the source is based on the preceding year, while Income Tax on interest taxed at the source is payable on the actual year of assessment; and whether he will insert a Clause in the Finance Bill to remedy this anomaly?
If a person holding War Loan on which he has been accustomed to receive interest without deduction of Income Tax arranges that the whole of the interest is to be paid under deduction of Income Tax, then for the year of assessment daring which he receives the interest less tax deducted at the source he is not charged with tax in respect of the interest which he received in full during the preceding year. In these circumstances, the difficulty to which my hon. Friend refers would not appear to arise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to the hostility of the banks to collecting interest at the source, the Treasury is losing a considerable sum every year?
No, Sir; I am not aware of that.
Has the right hon. Gentleman not read the Report of the findings of his own Royal Commission?
Entertainments Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the appearance of cinema shows to which admission is free on the understanding that each visitor so admitted pays for liquid refreshment consumed in accordance with a specified value; whether such shows are liable to Entertainments Duty; and what instructions on the subject have been given to the excise officers?
My attention has been drawn to Press reports of the existence of a cinema show of the kind mentioned, and the matter is at present being investigated.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Inland Revenue authorities have again considered the desirability of applying the Entertainments Duty to cabaret shows on the same lines as to other places of amusement so long as this duty is in existence; and what decision has in this case been reached?
I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer given him on the 31st March, which represents the present position.
Are not these cabaret shows a serious competition to the music halls, which do-pay the Entertainments Duty, and will he give the matter his urgent consideration?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the entertainment given at the cabaret shows is, in some respects, the same as in the music halls?
I believe that is so.
Questions
Treasury Notes (Renewal)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the worn condition of many Treasury notes now in circulation; and whether renewals are being carried out as in normal times?
The hon. and gallant Member is probably right, though I have seen no other complaints on the subject. During the period of the general strike the practice of the banks was to reissue notes so far as possible instead of sending old notes to London. This would naturally result in rather more worn notes being in circulation than is usual. The effect is, of course, transient, though it may take some little time to wear off.
When some of these old notes have been withdrawn, can some of them be distributed among Members of this House?
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very tattered condition of Treasury notes in Northern Ireland and cannot some arrangement be made for a more rapid distribution of newer notes? [HON. MEMBERS "Answer!"]
"British Gazette."
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether copies of the first number of the "British Gazette" can be supplied to Members of the House who desire them?
Copies of the first number of the "British Gazette" are no longer available for distribution to Members of Parliament. Of the very restricted issue of the first number of the "British Gazette," 500 copies were made available to Members at the Vote Office of the House of Commons on the morning of publication, and of each subsequent issue 700 copies were made available. Having regard, however, to the hon. and gallant Member's absence at the time when this very important publication was issued, I will endeavour to obtain a copy to present to him, in order that he may not be deprived of what is likely to attain a very high collector's value.
While thanking the Financial Secretary for his courtesy, I should like to ask when we shall have an opportunity of discussing, in the House of Commons, the contents of this interesting document?
We did discuss the matter at some length when we had not the pleasure of the presence of the hon. and gallant Member.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that copies of this excellent publication are already being sold at a pound premium per copy?
Cannot a copy be framed?
Will the right hon. Gentleman cause a second edition to be printed, in order to defeat the extortionate demands of the collectors?
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain Benn), is he aware that very few copies of the "British Gazette" reached Hull?
Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean Hull or somewhere else?
Serb-Croat-Slovene State (Debt to Great Britain)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the amount of the Jugo-Slavian War Debt to Great Britain?
The amount of War Debt of the Serb-Croat-Slovene State to Great Britain as on 31st March, 1926, is £31,400,000. In addition, the same State has a debt of £2,533,000 to this country in respect of post-War relief, which fell due on 1st January, 1925. These debts have not yet been funded by the Serb-Croat-Slovene Government.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what arrangements have been made to pay these debts?
Negotiations, I understand are taking place at the present moment with a view to funding. I cannot say more than that.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when a statement is likely to be made?
No, Sir.
Is interest being charged against the debt?
Of course, that will be taken into account in whatever arrangements for the settlement are made.
But are they paying no interest?
Contributory Pensions Act
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware, in the case of a wife whose husband has disappeared over 10 years ago, and who has not since been traced, that the Ministry is requiring the wife to go to the expense legally to presume the husband's death before admitting the wife to the benefits of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act; and, as many are not in a position to incur this expense, will he introduce some Regulation to obviate the necessity of this legal expenditure?
The practice of the Ministry is not as stated in the question, and my right hon. Friend is not aware that any case has been dealt with on that basis. If my hon. Friend has a specific case in mind, and will give him particulars, my right hon. Friend will certainly look into it.
If I bring this case forward, will the hon. Gentleman give it consideration?
Yes, Sir.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider extending the same privileges to the widows of men who have had what is known in Scotland as a habit and repute marriage?
Claims and Record Office, Kew (Discharges)
asked the Minister of Labour what arrangements have been made in respect of the 150 men under notice of discharge from Kew, but whose term of employment was extended to 12th June; and whether, in view of the heavy increase in the numbers registered as unemployed, it will be found possible to continue the services of the men concerned for a further period?
There are 118 men at the Claims and Record Office, Kew, who are under notice of discharge. Of these 71 are due to leave on 12th June, and 47 on 15th June. If the state of the work necessitates it, steps will be taken to extend appointments in suitable cases and in suitable numbers.
May I ask if any of the ex-civil servants recently dismissed after seven or eight years' service will be reinstated to deal with the extra work?
Yes, I say at the end of the answer that, if the state of work necessitates it, steps will be taken to extend employment in suitable cases and to suitable numbers.
Unemployment Benefit (Seasonal Workers)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that it is the practice of unemployment committees to refuse unemployment benefit to seasonal workers in their off-season; and whether he will consider granting exemption from the Unemployment Insurance Act to such workers in respect that in practice they merely pay into the Insurance Fund and receive nothing out of it, and accordingly are compelled to act as insurers and underwriters to those more fortunate workers who are normally in constant employment?
Seasonal workers do, in fact, draw a considerable amount of benefit, but their rights are restricted in certain respects. Extended benefit is not generally paid, and standard benefit is not payable in the off season unless they are genuinely seeking work in some other occupation during that time. Exemption can be granted under the present Acts under certain conditions only, and there is no power to exempt seasonal workers as such. I understand that the position of seasonal workers is among the points that are under consideration by Lord Blanesburgh's Committee.
Is it not a fact that the Ministry of Labour are assuming the functions of the "Artful Dodger"— taking everything, and giving nothing?
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to:
Ascot District Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords, ]without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Law relating to children born out of wedlock." [Legitimacy Bill [ Lords. ]
Chairmen's Panel
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Sir Cyril Cobb to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Judicial Proceedings (Regulation of Reports) Bill); Sir Edmund Turton to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill), and Mr. Short (in respect of the Petroleum Bill [ Lords ]); Mr. James Brown to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Criminal Appeal (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ]), and Mr. Samuel Roberts (in respect of the Rating (Scotland) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Hairdressers' and Barbers' Shops (Sunday Closing) Bill,
"to provide for the compulsory closing of Hairdressers' and Barbers' Shops on Sundays," presented by Mr. JAMES STEWART; supported by Mr. Templeton, Mr. Morgan Jones, Mr. Barr, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Robert Morrison, Mr. John Jones, Sir Samuel Chapman, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Moore, and Mr. Womersley; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 118.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee A
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Home Counties (Music and Dancing) Licensing Bill): Mr. Ernest Alexander, Sir Alfred Butt, Mr. Dunnico, Mr. Erskine, Mr. Groves, Captain Hacking, Mr. Hore-Belisha, Mr. Looker, Sir Herbert Nield, and Mr. Rhys.
Standing Committee B
Mr. William Nicholson further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Twenty-five Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill); Lieut-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Mr. Albert Alexander, Mr. Sandeman Allen, Mr. Barnes, Captain Briscoe, Sir Henry Cautley, Sir Burton Chadwick, Sir Philip Cun-liffe-Lister, Captain Garro-Jones, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. Guinness, Captain Gunston, Mr. Harland, Mr. Haslam, Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy, Mr. Kidd, Mr. Lamb, Miss Lawrence, Mr Lunn, Sir William Perring, Mr. Basil Peto, Mr. Ramsden, Major Ruggles-Brise, Mr. Shepperson, and Mr. Webb.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Finance Bill
Further considered in Committee. [ Progress, 7th June .]
[Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 10.— (Continuation and amendment of Part I of Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921.)
I think it will be generally convenient if we have a general discussion on the first Sub-section on the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas), and then merely take a vote on the Amendment lower down, which proposes to leave out "ten" and insert "two"
I beg to move, in page 6, line 20, to leave out Subsection (1).
I would like to call the attention of the Committee to a speech made when the Key Industries Bill was introduced for the first time during the Coalition days. The present Prime Minister then made a statement somewhat in contradiction of the suggestion contained in this Subsection, stating that if any industry could not stand on its feet in five years it was not worth protecting at all. Yet here we have a proposal to extend the operation of this iniquitous Act for another 10 years. I should very much like to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say in explanation of that amazing situation, and I will suggest one for him, and that is that the section of his party who are out-and-out Protectionists have made him do this against his better judgment. We have had some experience of this Key Industries Act, and I am glad that we are to have a little liberty to discuss it on its merits. I was a Coalitionist in the days when it was introduced, but I can claim to have been very consistent. I have voted and spoken against the Bill from its inception until this day, and I am as convinced to-day as I was on the day when it was introduced that it has been a pernicious one and that it has raised prices.
When I said we were to have a general discussion on this Sub-section, I did not mean that we could have a general discussion on the Safeguarding of Industries Act. This Amendment only raises the question of whether the Act shall be extended for 10 years.
May I point out to you, Captain FitzRoy, that Part I of this Act of Parliament ceases as an Act in August of this year, and that this Sub-section is in fact a new measure proposing new machinery for a period of 10 years.
But we cannot have a Second Reading Debate on-this Amendment.
This proposal is based on a Report made by the Board of Trade on the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and we have never yet had an opportunity of discussing that Report. I submit that on this Amendment we ought to be able to discuss everything which is contained in that Report.
I really do not think anyone can suggest that the deletion of this Sub-section is a suitable occasion for a Second Reading Debate on all matters connected with the Safeguarding of Industries Act.
Under your ruling, Captain FitzRoy, the Debate is going to be very restricted, and we can only discuss the question whether the operation of Part I is going to be extended for another 10 years or not. As a matter of fact, the Clause itself raises the whole question of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, which expires next August, and I think it would be in order to discuss the details on the question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" We want to have a general discussion upon the first Amendment, and I understood that that was the course to be followed this afternoon. Of course, the Committee will not insist upon a repetition of that discussion on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" if it takes place now.
I think I ought to put the position before the Committee. It is true that the effect of the particular Sub-section we are how discussing is to re-enact the duties imposed by Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and any discussion on Part II would obviously be quite out of order. On the other hand, would it not be in order to discuss those items of duty which are actually reimposed by this Subsection? I should have thought that it would be more convenient to take one discussion than raise the same question on a series of Amendments.
That was what I suggested in my original ruling. It would be proper to discuss what is actually in the Clause, but not to go into the merits of the whole question of safeguarding.
If you, Captain FitzRoy, confine me to discussing Subsection (1) and expect me to make a speech on the question of the 10 years' period, my vocabulary will not allow me to stand on my legs for a very long time. I would like to point out that this Clause is likely to affect future Governments, because the present Government cannot hope to last more than three years, and the Liberal party, notwithstanding the difficulties of the present moment, certainly hope to be in power in three years' time. We shall, at any rate, be a united party on this question, because we have not got two opposing sections on the Free Trade question. I do think it is unfair that the present Government should bind future Governments for such a long period. The present Prime Minister said, when this Bill was introduced, that five years was quite sufficient to enable any industry to get on its feet, and if it could not do it in that time, it should not be supported.
I understand, Captain FitzRoy, that, under the ruling you have just laid down, we shall be able to debate Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act which is being continued under this Clause. I wish to remind the Committee that Part I was the first of the safeguarding measures which have since been laid before this House. I would also like to remind the Committee that this part of the Act was brought in when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was Prime Minister, therefore it is a procedure for which the Liberal and Conservative Parties must share responsibility.
May I remind the hon. Member that there was a party called the Independent Labour Party, which offered a very vigorous resistance to this proposal in conjunction with other sections of the then Opposition?
I was referring to the Leader of the hon. Baronet who has just spoken, not to the Leader of the hon. and gallant Member. If I may now pass from these historical controversies to the question of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act which it is now proposed to continue, I should like to draw attention to the fact that no less than 6,000 articles are included in Part I of that Act. We are, therefore, discussing a very considerable measure of Protection under this Clause.
I would further remind the Committee that, when Part I was first introduced, it was introduced on the ground that these articles were all essential to our success in War. This Clause continues a policy which was first introduced in 1921, in the early aftermath of War, when the minds of many were filled with morals which they thought might be drawn from our War experience. I would submit to the Committee that this Clause in the Finance Bill is a relic, as it were, of War psychology and of conditions which have now very largely passed away. Even in 1921 it was thought that five years would be quite sufficient to enable these industries, which were considered to be necessary on war grounds, to establish themselves. I would further emphasise this fact, that the assumption on which these articles were included, when safeguarding was introduced, was not merely the necessity of preparing against possible future war, but the necessity of preparing against a future war without allies, because, among the dangers against which it was supposed we ought to prepare, was the danger of being dependent upon other countries— not only on Germany, with whom we had recently been at war, but upon countries like France and America, which had recently been our allies, and even Switzerland and other neutral countries. I suggest that this hypothesis, not merely of war, but of war in which this country would be engaged without any allies', although it may have seemed plausible in 1921, is completely implausible to-day. I should have thought that hon. Members on the other side would be willing to agree with that, in view of all that we have heard in recent months about the stabilisation of (the European position as the result of the Locarno conversations, which are not yet embodied in a fixed treaty, but which it is hoped will soon be so embodied. I submit that the grounds on which Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act was first introduced are now completely inapplicable, and that, for that reason, this Committee ought not to re-enact them at the present time.
Furthermore, certain economic arguments, apart from the argument as to the necessity of preparedness for war, were used in 1921, which are no longer applicable to-day. At that time there was great instability of currencies and exchanges in Europe. Although the exchanges are not yet completely stabilised, notably in France, a good deal of that disorganisation has passed away. The German mark, which in 1921 was fluctuating violently, and the depreciation of which was used as an argument at that time for the safeguarding procedure, has now attained stability. We have seen, in these five years, not only stabilisation of minds, but also stabilisation of currencies and exchanges, which has done a great deal to undermine the argument upon which this original safeguarding proposal was based. I think that that has been appreciated by the Committee which has presented this Report on the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, which was presented only four days before the Budget was introduced. That Committee was presided over by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, and I think the House will have read its Report with considerable interest if not with complete agreement. On pages 5 and 6 of that Report there appears to be a certain shifting of the ground of the argument. It had hitherto been assumed that war necessities were the original cause for the introduction of this part of the safeguarding apparatus, but, on pages 5 and 6 of the Report, the Committee say, in reference to these various articles, that,
If we turn to the arguments which are applicable to-day, the arguments as to peace time expediency, I submit that on that basis no case whatever has been made out in the Report of the Committee for the continuance of these safeguarding arrangements. In fact, although we have had a number of very curious productions from these Committees which have been appointed under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, I think we have very seldom had a more curious or hurried one. than this which I hold in my hand, and for which the hon. Gentleman and three others are responsible. Certain points of detail will arise more conveniently, I think, at a later stage, but I should just like to comment upon the way in which this Committee's Report was published. I repeat the assertion I made just now, that the Report of the Committee was published only four days before the Budget was introduced—I do not think that will be denied—and I am assured by those who have watched the matter carefully that no announcement was ever made publicly that this Committee had been set up. Consequently, the supporters of the arguments in opposition to these taxes had no real opportunity of submitting their case to the Committee. The users and importers of scientific and optical instruments and the like were seriously concerned at the lack of any opportunity for them to present their case against the continuance of these safeguarding arrangements.
It is also, I think, worth while to remind the Committee that, shortly after the key industries duties were Introduced in 1921, an application was put forward by certain protected interests, who held that a duty of 33i per cent. was not sufficient for safeguarding. The case was put forward by these interests for an increased duty, and the application was heard very fully and publicly. At that hearing, the applicants who desired an increased duty were represented by Sir Arthur Colefax, one of the colleagues of the hon. Gentleman on his committee, and he did his best for the applicants. The opponents of the application for an increased duty were represented by the present Solicitor-General, and so crushing was the argument of the Solicitor-General as against Sir Arthur Colefax that the committee of the Board of Trade which heard this application turned it down out of hand and refused an increase of duty. It would be interesting to know whether the Solicitor-'General is wholeheartedly in favour of the increase that is now proposed. It is interesting to observe that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade has secured the assistance of Sir Arthur Colefax in putting forward his case for an increase of duties, together with the advice of two very eminent scientists, who cannot, how-, ever, I think, be regarded as special experts upon the financial and economic side of this question. I am not greatly impressed by the impartiality of that Committee. Two of its members are full-Wooded, committed Protectionists. The hon. Gentleman, I think, rather regrets the limits to the extent to which Protection can at present be carried in this Parliament, and one of his colleagues is equally notorious as a perfectly honest, full-blooded Protectionist; while his other two colleagues were scientists, with no special knowledge outside their own professional sphere. We need not, perhaps, be surprised that a committee so constituted has put forward a case so weak for the continuance of these safeguarding arrangements.
It is not only proposed in this Clause to continue the duties that have been in operation since 1921, but it is also proposed greatly to extend the range of articles subject to duty, and also, to increase the rates of duty. Those of us who have studied the history of the gradual growth of the Protectionist virus are, of course, very familiar with the phenomenon that a certain duty is imposed initially in order to give adequate protection to a certain industry, and then, after a period of time, it is submitted that the protection is inadequate, and that, in spite of the protection, the industry is still not doing as well as its promoters hoped; and we are quite familiar from past experience, in other countries where tariffs are of advanced and long-enduring growth, with the demand for an increase of the duty and an extension of the period of protection. That merely gives support to the general argument that these Protectionist arrangements are undesirable, and that they do not achieve the purpose which they are advertised to achieve. The 6,000 dutiable articles include, I am assured, toy magic lanterns, soothing syrup, glass berries for millinery, toy magnets for certain children's games, and hosiery latch needles. Six thousand articles, including these among others, are dutiable under the provision of 1921.
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Under this proposal that number is going to be greatly increased, particularly under a provision which is bringing in all separate components and elements of these dutiable articles. I do not know by how many the 6,000 is going to be increased. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will tell us how far the scope of these duties is going to be extended under the Clause as it stands. In addition, the duty is to be raised from 33⅓ per cent. to 50 per cent. on the greater part of the articles affected. The general case for doing that is that so far the industries affected have not been able to meet the full blast of foreign competition. There must be something very seriously wrong with a number of these industries, if, in spite of this five years' artificial feeding by a subsidy from the consumers of this country, they are still unable to compete with their various rivals, and particularly their rivals on the Continent of Europe, who have been going through a period of very much greater difficulty than the manufacturers in this country.
I notice, and I think it is significant, that in two or three places in this Report, reference is made to the inadequacy of the arrangements for research in the British industries concerned. With regard to optical instruments, on page 8 of the Report, with regard to laboratory porcelain, on page 18, and with regard to standard electrical instruments, on page 20, this Committee admits that British manufacturers are much behindhand in research and the co-ordination of research and manufacture. I venture to suggest, in addition to those three admitted cases, that there is a large number of others which could equally well be quoted as showing the backwardness, the sleepiness and the lack of enterpise of a large section of our manufacturers. Even the Committee quotes these very glaring cases, and no doubt it is only a small part of the story. The worst of it is that, while we have the statement that the British manufacturer is backward in his methods, and is not convinced, as his German and American rivals are convinced, of the importance of research, the position is aggravated by the kind of subsidy paid by the consumers in the form of the higher prices which are the necessary result of safeguarding arrangements of this kind.
The general conclusion to which I am led by a perusal of this Report and by a study of the history of the five years which have gone over our heads since this safeguarding procedure was first introduced, is that we have here an admission of failure on the part of an important section of British industry, which is very discreditable to the general level of efficiency of private enterprise in this country. We are led to comtemplate a humiliating confession of failure, in spite of the artificial assistance afforded to these particular branches of industry since 1921. If a 33⅓ per cent. duty has not been able to galvanise them into efficiency, it is hard to believe that 50 per cent. for another 10 years will do much more- It would be out of order to pursue alternative policies which might be adopted, and I will content myself by saying that this policy, for which the Government including the Liberal party were responsible in 1921, has evidently failed and is not producing the results required. It is admitted in the Report that in many cases the output has not increased, and that the number of men employed has declined, and it forces me to the conclusion that we are on a false scent, and had better turn our minds to alternative methods for increasing the efficiency of British industry. This method, which has been tried in many other countries with no greater success, is admittedly a failure, and it is high time that we changed our tactics and aimed at a more hopeful objective.
I agree with only one thing which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) has said, and that is that a very large proportion of this House has been committed in principle and practice to these duties. For the rest, his speech consisted of a denunciation of British industry in general, and of the industries with which these duties are concerned in particular. He was not good enough to give us any chapter or verse to support his denunciation, whereas the Report which has been laid before the House by the Board of Trade contains, I submit, a complete justification for everything that is proposed. The history of these duties is relevant. As I have said, in almost every quarter of the House the principle for which we are now contending and the method of its application has been supported. It goes back to the earliest days when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) was the advocate and protagonist of the view that these industries were essential not only for war purposes but for peace purposes also. He was converted to this view, not at the Paris Conference, in which he took so prominent a part, but long before. Those of us who were in the House in 1916 and 1915 will remember that he nailed his colours to the mast on a Resolution introduced into this House early in 1916, and passed unanimously I think, as to the vital importance of establishing these industries. I would like to remind the Committee—
I remember speaking against it.
Yes, the right hon. Gentleman has been very consistent. He may have spoken against it, but I think I am right in saying that the Resolution was adopted by the House. I certainly will say that the right hon. Gentleman has on every occasion objected to every Measure which has ever been brought forward to assist British industry. I would not for a moment suggest that he was tainted in this matter. I am not so sure about a great many other Members of his party. On that occasion, 10th January, 1916, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea said this:
"Every one of these articles, glass, chemicals, dyes, electrical apparatus—and I could name about a dozen others—were industries of vast importance, not only to us as a great commercial country, but as a fighting country. Without these glass articles, without some of the porcelain articles which are essential for electrical construction, without the best type of magneto, without some of the best of our chemicals, and without a great range of dyes, which used to be manufactured in Germany, we were placed at a great disadvantage. Never again should that happen."
Who was this?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea sitting below the hon. and gallant Member, and leader, I think, of his section of the Liberal party. Then my right hon. Friend went on to make it plain that this was not a war need simply. He went on to show how great was the peace need:
May I point this out? Not only are all sections of the Liberal party embraced, but there were a large number of Labour Members, I think, in the Government at the time, and the whole of the Socialist party is tainted, because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) when he introduced his Budget in the Labour Government, if he had thought that these duties were so wrong, and that these principles were so iniquitous, could very easily have introduced a Clause saying that the Safeguarding of Industries Act, Part I, should come to an end. He did nothing of the kind. His Budget was introduced, and throughout the whole time the Labour party were in office Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act was carried on. Therefore, every single section of the House has at one time on another been committed to this policy, and rightly so, because every one of these industries is an essential industry not only for war but for peace as well. The hon. Gentleman had a few rather derogatory things to say about the Committee. He will forgive me if I say that on a matter of scientific efficiency and quality in a scientific industry, the view pronounced by men like Sir Richard Glazebrook, late Director of the National Physical Laboratory, and Sir William Pope, who, I think, by common consent is the greatest living chemist to-day, is likely to carry more weight to an unbiassed mind, and I should like to express the gratitude of the Government to Sir Arthur Colefax, who had great experience in the War as well—he was Director of Glass Production—and those two great scientists for a very exhaustive and very valuable inquiry. But, of course, it does not come to us only as the opinion of that Committee; it comes to us also as the considered opinion of the three fighting Services as to what is absolutely vital to them as well as to the peace industry of this country. Now we are told by the hon. Gentleman that it is a record of inefficiency. It is nothing of the sort. I can understand that he wants to see the Act go by the board. It is a certain refutation of all the theories for which he stands. [ Interruption .] It is a record of improvement in quality, in research—in every one of these industries the Committee report upon the excellence of the research that has been carried on—a record of improvement in methods of manufacture, and a record—and this will be very upsetting to the hon. Member—of steadily falling prices.
I ought to justify that, perhaps, with more particularity. Let me take one or two examples of what has happened. Before the War we had practically no manufacture of magnetos at all. We could not have sent up our aeroplanes in the first months of the War if we had not discovered in this country a large store of magnetos of the Bosch Company, and I am told that for months in the early part of the War we had to put German magnetos, fortunately found in this country, into our aeroplanes. I have taken 37 motor manufacturing concerns. Before the War only three of them were using any British magnetos at all. To-day all but three are using exclusively British magnetos. Employment has doubled since 1921, and, contrary to all theory, prices have steadily fallen.
Then why continue it?
Because we do not want to lose the whole of the industry.
Can it only be propped up by a tariff?
I come again to fine chemicals. The pre-War production was about 10 per cent. of our consumption. To-day we are producing something like 75 per cent. of our consumption. There is an extraordinary advance, not only in quantity, but in quality as well, and an export trade is beginning, too. That is all wrong; that is all contrary to theory. Take insulin, a vitally important drug. In insulin, which we have entirely developed by the research facilities fostered under the protection of these duties, we have now a very large share not only of the home market but of the world market as well. The quality is quite excellent. I take it that is why the foreigner is buying it. We have been told, over and over again, from those benches how vitally important it is to get an opening for our scientific men and our chemists in industry. The development of this fine chemical industry has made that opening. It has made a commercial profession for these men, with the result that you have got three or four times the number of skilled chemists who were employed before. Again, with these chemicals, prices are falling all the time, and, what is most interesting, the fall in prices is most marked wherever we have competition with a foreign monopoly. Take a substance which is known to every amateur photographer—metol. It has another and longer name of some 18 syllables, but I understand metol is the short name by which it is generally known. Before the War the Germans had a monopoly, and they used to charge, even to professional photographers, who got a discount, 21s. a lb. We established the manufacture of metol in this country, and to-day the price is 9s. a lb. Those who are acquainted with the industry could cite case after case where the same thing has happened. If you let the industry go by the board, what will happen? Will prices fall still further? Not a bit of it. The monopoly will be restored and the price will be put up.
There is another feature in connection with these chemicals. We are not only establishing an industry very important in itself—important as a training ground for chemists, important for research, and important to industries— but we are helping to establish a chemical engineering industry. Orders have been placed by these chemical manufacturers for machinery that they never required before, and that has led to the development of a section of the engineering industry which has not existed hitherto. It is not only of benefit to this country, but we get development within the Empire. In the case of Canada, by reason of the fact that the Empire is in this a protected-market, and that Canadian Empire products are admitted free under Part 1, the exports of synthetic acetic acid to this country have gone up from 1,000 to six or seven thousand tons a year. Wireless valves are vitally important both for war and for peace. Research and development under the protection of these duties have led to improved types and improved methods of manufacture. Optical glass and optical instruments are absolutely vital to all the three services. They are in use on every ship, in every aeroplane, and on every gun. They are in use practically by every soldier in the event of a war. They are equally important in medical and scientific research.
They were made in British factories before the War.
In very small quantities. Only 10 per cent were made before the War. The hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to know enough of what happened in the War to know how we were put to the gravest inconvenience—and if he does not know, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea will tell him, as he told the House in the War—because we had not developed those industries properly. We had a small nucleus of efficient workmen, and we could have had a much larger industry if we had protected it before the War. We had the skill and the craftsmanship which we could have developed, and we had to develop them under the stress of the War, and munitions had to wait while the optical glass and optical instruments' industry was being developed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea said, "Never again must this happen." To-day it is facing tremendous competition. There were great post-war stocks in these industries, and there is the keenest possible competition. We were told there was no initiative in it. When Dr. Gye and Mr. Barnard, whose researches are so well known, were making researches into cancer, and required a particular kind of microscope in their experiments which had never been made and which had to be specially designed, it was a British firm of optical instrument makers who, at a very early date, were able to produce what was wanted. Coming to scientific and measuring instruments, progress has been steadily made there. The Committee tell us how mass production has been entered upon in mathematical drawing instruments, and the same is true all along the line.
So far from these things being merely required for war, the application of these inventions in industry is growing more and more from day to day. The combination of science and industry is becoming closer all the time. Take optical instruments. Originally we were only interested in them for the purposes of war and, of course, for medical research. The use of optical instruments for the testing of a number of products in industry is steadily growing. For instance, an article that is used in the manufacture of artificial silk is tested by projection on the screen by the use of lenses of optical instruments. In the same way the accuracy of screws and electric light filaments is tested by pro- jection on the screen. To show how the art of war has turned into the arts of peace, the periscope, which was known to everyone of us in the War, is now used for the inspection of the inside of large forgings. It is extraordinarily interesting how these scientific instruments, which were first of all instruments of war, have become more and more the instruments of industry. Take gauges, which we have protected with such success. Gauges, as we get on to mass production, become ever more and more important. They were vital to us in the War, and they are equally important in every single process to-day where mass production has been introduced. Everyone knows the value of X-rays in detecting any hidden faults in our own insides. The X-ray to-day is being used to detect hidden faults in the inside of almost every kind of article that is being used in industry. In acetylene welding it detects faults which could not otherwise be found. It finds out hidden corrosion in ferro-concrete. The faults in aeroplane wood-work covered by canvas, which could not otherwise be detected, can be detected by X-ray apparatus. I believe leather for boots is now being tested by X-rays. Last, but by no means least, the inside of a golf ball is inspected by X-ray apparatus in order to make sure that its entrails are in proper condition.
These industries have had a difficult struggle. The articles which were necessary, and which had to be largely manufactured in the War, have had great difficulties to contend with because of the great pressure of post-War stocks, and they have to compete with countries which have had much longer experience than we have had, where wages are lower and hours are longer. And in every one of these cases they have to compete with countries where there is an enormous productive capacity. If you take the chemical industry and the glass industry, it is common knowledge that in the great producing countries of the Continent and the United States, the capacity for production is greater than the output at present, and it would be perfectly simple, if you withdraw the protection from these essential industries, for foreign firms to produce on a larger scale, which would suit them very well, and to dump the surplus of their products into this country.
It is said that we are prohibited from carrying forward these Duties, because originally they were introduced for five years, and the Prime Minister said that he hoped that that time might be sufficient. Let me remove at once any doubt there may be in the minds of hon. Members opposite on this point. I can assure them that every member of the Government is unanimously and wholeheartedly behind this proposal, and with equal conviction I believe the party which supports the Government is behind the proposal. Circumstances to-day are not what the Prime Minister and most people expected in 1921 they would be. In 1921, who supposed that the slump in trade, the trade depression, was going to last so long?Who supposed that the difficulties would be so great? I remember being told that the Exchange difficulties, the low wages against which we had, to contend, and so on, would be temporary. Who supposed that these conditions would continue for as long as they have, and that we should have had to meet the conditions which confront us at the present time?
Because we were unduly sanguine five years ago as to what the condition of the world would be to-day, are we, for the sake of some logical conclusion, to close our eyes to all our present-day experience and to the facts as they exist at the present time and, for the sake of that logical conclusion, to reject what common sense and prudence and the whole -national need dictate to us? It would be not only foolish but criminal to do so. It would set back all these industries. It would absolutely ruin some of them. Here are industries which experience has shown have taken full advantage in every way of the assistance which has been afforded to them. They are industries which are engaged in research and doing their utmost to increase production, and they are becoming increasingly essential to this country for the arts of peace no less than for the needs of war. We should be criminal if we did not continue for a reasonable period the full security and protection which has been so successful not only in the case of these industries but of other industries which depend upon them.
The President of the Board of Trade began by making a few observations in reply to the speech of my hon. Friend. Those observations were made in his customary University debating style, and I suppose they were intended to be sarcastic. If he had devoted the greater part of his speech to replying to my hon. Friend, the Committee would have been better informed on this question when the right hon. Gentleman sat down than they are. He has read with very great eloquence the brief that has been prepared for him by the officials of his department, but the case against these proposals still remains totally unanswered. It is no use the hon. Gentleman talking to us about what was said by any present Members of the House or by past Members of the House in the debates on this question in 1921. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman quoting, as he always does, what the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) did or said in 1916. We are discussing the question under present circumstances and in the light of the experience of the last five years.
After the right hon. Gentleman had recited the wonderfully beneficial-results which have flown from the operation of this Measure in the last five years, I wondered that there was any trade depression in the country. After he had spent about 25 minutes in reciting all these wonderful benefits, he referred in a few passing sentences to the protracted trade depression which, by the way, began in the same year that the Safeguarding of Industries Act was put into operation. He said that at that time nobody anticipated that the trade depression would have been so prolonged. I wonder whether the policy that was adopted in that year has not had some influence in causing the prolongation of this unfortunate depression in trade. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had said something in reply to the criticism of my hon. Friend as to the way in which this Committee was set up, and the way in which its proceedings were conducted. The Prime Minister gave a very definite pledge, with which every Member of the House is familiar, that there was no intention of carrying out Protection except through the machinery of the Safeguarding of Industries scheme. It is not being carried on under that scheme. These proposals are not in accordance with the Safeguarding of Industries scheme as embodied in the White Paper issued by the Board of Trade. There, the conditions were very definitely and explicitly laid down. The Committee was to be appointed publicly by the Board of Trade. The names of the members of the Committee were to be publicly announced. The evidence, or a great part of it, was to be taken in public. The opponents were to be given an opportunity of putting their case.
Those conditions have not been fulfilled. This proceeding has been taken in darkness, shunning the light of day. Evil doers are always afraid of the light. No one in the House of Commons knew of the existence of this Committee until its Report was presented, four days before these proposals were actually submitted to the House. I repeat what I said in regard to the constitution of the Safeguarding of Industries scheme, that the constitution of this Committee is a perfect scandal. Not the least regard to impartiality was shown in the constitution of the membership of the Committee. Take the Chairman; the hon. Member for Wallasey (Sir Burton Chadwick). He is an honourable gentleman who is, one might say, almost regarded with affection by every Member of this House. His simplicity and his honesty carry an irresistible appeal to all of us. But he is an official of the Board of Trade. A political Minister of the Board of Trade is the Chairman of the Committee. He is an admitted Protectionist. Sir Arthur Colefax, another member of the Committee, is also a Protectionist. At one time he was a Tory Protectionist Member of this House. The fact that Sir Arthur Colefax had been counsel for the advocates of the extension of the Duties under the existing Act, ought to have disqualified him for membership of the Committee but, apparently, the Board of Trade in looking round for men who could be trusted to give the kind of verdict that the President of the Board of Trade wanted, said: "Sir Arthur Colefax is the very man we want. He is already definitely committed to this policy." I know nothing about the political opinions of other members of the Committee but, at any rate, the Board of Trade made sure that they would have a majority of Protectionists on the Committee.
The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the statement made by the present Prime Minister in his position as President of the Board of Trade when the original Bill was before the House. The right hon. Gentleman misrepresented what the Prime Minister said on that occasion. It is most important. It was referred to by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment. It is so important and it is such a complete answer to everything that the President of the Board of Trade has said this afternoon that I shall make no excuse for reading the extract. The present Prime Minister said: Act which was passed five years ago has already been achieved, and there is no further need for its extension.
The President of the Board of Trade made an observation, when he was attempting to prove that every party and every Member of this House is committed to the principle of safeguarding, that when I was in office I did not repeal this part of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. There are a great many other things of which I disapprove with which I did not attempt to deal in my first Budget. But it is simply silly for the right hon. Gentleman to attempt to make a point of that.
The right hon. Gentleman could not carry his own party.
The right hon. Gentleman knows that that observation is not true. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we allowed Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act to expire. He says that I could not carry my own party, but I did a much bigger thing than that, so far as revenue is concerned; with the unanimous support of my party we revoked the McKenna Duties and, if we had remained in office, we should have allowed Part I of this Act to expire just as we allowed Part II to expire. I have already referred to the constitution of the Committee and I do not think we need attach special importance to a report of such a committee. But let me point out—and it was never touched upon by the right hon. Gentleman—the indirect effect of these duties. They cover articles which are essential to a great many of the staple trades of this country. Any increase in the cost of a commodity which enters into the cost of production in other industries is hampering to industry, and to some extent the excessive prices of these essentials is responsible for the non-recovery of other industries during the last five years of trade depression. What is the first point made by this Committee? They tell us that these duties have proved to be of fundamental importance in British industries and in scientific research, and they go on in another place to point out, especially in regard to optical glass, that, instead of having established that industry and increased the output, there has been a decrease in the labour employed in the industry. They say—and this is very material: supported by hon. Members opposite because they regard them as being stepping stones to Protection.
We object to these duties because they are Protectionist. But I am not such a hide-bound Free Trader as to object to them on mere doctrinaire or academic grounds. I am a Free Trader because I believe Protection is bad and because I believe Free Trade is the best fiscal policy for a country like this, which depends to such a great extent on markets outside our own shores. We object to them because we believe that Protection, instead of benefiting trade, must be a disadvantage to trade. It may be a benefit to some particular industry, but it never benefits a particular industry except at the expense of other industries. Protection has the same effect on trade and industry generally as the playing of the Scottish bagpipes once had on inmates of a hospital. One man wanted to hear them before he died. The bagpipes were played. He got well; but every other patient in the hospital died. Protection may possibly give an artificial stimulus to a particular industry, but it is only at the expense of other industries, and, therefore, on general grounds as well as on particular grounds we shall oppose these proposals.
The case which has been made out by the President of the Board of Trade against the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer as a Protectionist has just about as much ground for it as the case the President of the Board of Trade made out against me as the author of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. One is just as farfetched as the other. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer has never been suspect on this subject, as I have. And what are the grounds on which the President of the Board of Trade suspects me? He says I went to Paris, that I proposed some Resolutions there, that I advocated them there, came back here and commended them to the House. He is wrong in all his details. When he enters upon a controversy of this kind with such thin points in his support, he had better be more accurate. As a matter of fact, I was not at Paris, I never made a speech in Paris, and I did not come back and commend the Resolutions to the House of Commons.
I will tell him what I did. I was largely responsible for the drafting of two sections of the Paris Resolutions— and as war measures. If he had refreshed his historical memory, he would realise that at that time we were threatened by our enemies with the formation of a big economic bloc , which they were pleased to call Mittel Europe. It was suggested to those smaller countries who were wavering that, if they did not go in, they would find, immediately the War was over, that they were shut out from this great economic bloc , of which Germany was to be the centre and Vienna a kind of junior partner. We determined that in matters of trade and commerce we would be as vigorous as we were in the War. We promptly replied to this threat by saying that two could play a game of that kind, and we put it in a form which was accepted by the whole of the Allies, and it undoubtedly had an effect on some of the smaller Powers. But it had no more to do with the Safeguarding of Industries Act than it has to do with the eclipse of the moon!
What did the right hon. Gentleman mean by permanent measures? A section of one of the Paris Resolutions says that we have to make ourselves permanently independent.
Yes, and if the President of the Board of Trade will read carefully through the Resolutions, he will see that it was stated it should be done by each country within the four corners of its established fiscal policy, and the established fiscal policy of this country at that time was Free Trade. Nothing could be clearer. However, I am not going to pursue the argument on that point; it has been disposed of many times before. The right hon. Gentleman has raked these arguments up to-day, because he has nothing better to support his proposals. He had better drop them. The latter part of his speech was, in my opinion, much better than the earlier portion. He was able to give an account of the revival of some industries and the creation of others which did not exist before the war, and he may be excused for saying that it is due to the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I can understand that, and I will not quarrel with him about it, although he is wrong. But if these industries have been successfully established, and are now producing goods of such high quality that the purchasing industries and customers wish to buy their produce, that is no reason why you should put the Import Duty up to 50 per cent., and give them a further 10 years beyond the five years which have proved efficacious. The right hon. Gentleman does not agree with his own Prime Minister, and those who admire both are a little torn in their allegiance, as we are in other matters. The Prime Minister has just as keen an insight into industrial matters as the right hon. Gentleman himself, and he said that five years is enough to establish these industries, and, if it was not, then they were not worth establishing.
The Prime Minister said, he would have nothing to do with 10 years, and yet the proposal now made is for a period of 15 years instead of five. The President of the Board of Trade made considerable play of the fact that the proposals of the original Act have provided us with better optical glasses and some chemicals not previously manufactured in this country. The truth is that he is applying these proposals not to the half dozen instances which he gave to the Committee but to some 3,000 or 4,000 different articles. Does he claim that these proposals have made us entirely independent of the world in respect of every one of these thousands of articles? Nothing of the kind! Some of the most essential are drawn from raw materials which are not even found in the British Empire, which must be imported and which will continue to be imported. You cannot live independent of the rest of the world. You can provide in this country, and I hope we always shall, for some of the industries without which others cannot be conducted, and from our own resources keep our economic life going, but to suggest that you can under such a scheme as this be independent of the whole world is to try to make the Committee believe what every man knows to be untrue. In no circumstances, whether in peace or war, can you be independent of the lest of the world. I do not believe that these industries are in such a condition that they cannot exist without this artificial aid of a protective tariff, or that it is necessary to increase the duration of these proposals from five years to 15 years. I do not believe that for a moment. I believe they are just as prosperous, as my right hon. Friend said, and I believe that their prosperity is now on such a healthy basis that they can altogether dispense with this hot-air treatment.
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The President of the Board of Trade has given us so very comprehensive a list of the articles which have already benefited under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, Part I, that it may be like looking for a needle in a haystack to search for an article which was not mentioned in his speech. But I should like to draw his attention to the needle which is used in the hosiery latch trade. Those needles before the War were made almost entirely in Germany. As the War proceeded it was discovered, both in the Navy and elsewhere, that there was a danger that the knitted articles could not be supplied, because the needles which had been formerly used in England had been made in Germany and the supply had been cut off. Therefore the authorities—the Navy in the first place—asked that certain firms, who up to that time had not made these latch needles, to begin to make them. They immediately rose to the occasion, and from that time onward they have been supplying the British market. The workmen are now working more efficiently; those in charge of the industry know more about mass production; the equipment of the industry has been improved, and, while certain of the smaller needle-makers have been driven out by German competition, there are certain large firms who are keeping their heads fairly well above water. But the competition from foreign countries is very severe. The President of the Board of Trade has been given the figures—and he is considering this matter, I trust, with a sympathetic heart—which shows that, while the Germans at the end of the War were supplying no needles, now they are slowly coming into the market again on account of the fact that 80 per cent. of the cost is in wages, and that German wages are- two-thirds of those which are paid in this country. So I do wish, if I may, to call the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to that small paragraph in the Report, which I regret to think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) considers is a completely biased Report—I regret that anyone should make such a charge against the people who sat as assessors in these matters—I should like to call attention to this sentence in the Report:
"We are of opinion, further, that the question of the desirability of increasing the rate of duty so as more nearly to counterbalance the advantages possessed by Continental manufacturers should be considered."
I know my right hon. Friend has a sympathetic heart, and I trust that, if he is not able to do it at this moment, he will be able to translate that sympathy into action before very long.
Taking advantage of the fact that the Amendment which stands in my name can only be formally moved afterwards, I will say what I have to say on the subject at this time. It seems to me, from what I have heard since I came into the House, that many of the points dealing with the past history of safeguarding are matters that certainly do not concern us and that we can, therefore, look at the question as we find it to-day. It may be that the matter is simplified for us as the House is returning again to the old two-party system, and we have to consider only the views of the two great parties at the present time. I entirely agree with the criticisms that have been passed on Report and on the way it has been presented. I would like to know from the Chairman of the Committee what were the exact terms upon which the Committee was constituted. I see at the beginning of the Report that he referred to the fact that he was instructed to consider the development of the industries manufacturing the goods covered by the Schedule. The complaint that has been made has been made, as I understand, by firms who are not manufacturers but who are interested in the line of business on account of the policy that is recommended in this. Report. But what we should like to know is how far the Committee have considered, not just the industries mentioned here, but the industries, such as that of importers and others; how far the Committee took evidence from those industries and considered what the effect of their recommendations were to be on the other industries which are not mentioned.
The next point is this. After listening to the President of the Board of Trade we might have thought that, at any rate, the matter was of large importance in regard to the figures, but, in answer to a question given a month ago in this House as to the amount of the imports into Great Britain and Northern Ireland affected by Part I of. the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, the figure given, which, as I understand, refers to the whole of the matters now before the House, amounted only to £1,500,000 for 1925. The duty received on these goods is so small as hardly to justify the recommendations of the Report. But it is not, I gather, on these grounds that the recommendations to continue the safeguarding were made. For 1925 the figure amounted to £86,000 for the first section and £33,000 for the second section. The next point I would like to put to the Chairman of the Committee is this. The Report states that the main idea of safeguarding industries was more on account of the necessity that would arise in time of war of having certain of these industries in this country; but he goes on to say that it is equally important to have them in time of peace. I confess, after reading the Report, that I cannot see that any argument is given to justify the case for the retention of them in time of peace. I can understand that we can support them as part of a protectice policy, but I have always understood that safeguarding was something quite different from a protective policy. The idea really was that we might have the industry in this country in time of war; now they are being justified in time of peace. The Report does not seem to me, in spite of the enthusiastic speech of the President of the Board of Trade, to justify the policy which is recommended. Surely the President of the Board of Trade must have overlooked where the Committee refer to the state of some of the business firms that are reported upon.
In a resumé, the Committee sum up on the whole question of the glass industry by saying:
If you come to the recommendations with regard to optical glass, it will be seen that the Committee themselves distinctly state—and I am not in any way saying it is not true—that the manufacturers have turned out the very highest class of work when there is not a high demand in this country. They referred in one special case to the experience of Germany where, before the War, there was a large demand for field glasses for the large German Army, and the manufacturers of Germany had the advantage of the enormous demand which laid the foundation on which they could build their industry. I cannot see that we are told in the Report why it is that still there must be a demand in Germany, when we know that the German Army has more or less ceased to exist. I gather from the Report that still the Committee base their argument on the ground that the German manufacturers have a much larger demand for optical glass than the manufacturers in this country. It seems to me that, in dealing with industries of this kind on the lines of the Safeguarding of Industries, we are not dealing with the problem in the way that we ought to deal with it. We have one other instance of how difficulties are brought up between this country and one of the Dominions. I hope that Members who are specially interested in the Dominions have read the very interesting paragraph dealing with Canada. The figures show an enormous increase in the lenses coming from Canada. American lenses have been taken into Canada and brought from there to, this country. The Committee say that they would like the duty to be raised to 75 per cent. on account of this.
Not the duty, but the Empire labour content.
Perhaps when the Minister is replying he will inform us why it is that this recommendation does not appear in the Bill before us. My view is that in special industries, small industries—the total trade was only £1,500,000 in 1925, and employs only a limited number of people—there are other ways of keeping the trade in the country. To a large extent it is for military and naval purposes that the glass industry is safeguarded. It would be infinitely better if, instead of building up a great protective system, we dealt with these industries on the lines on which we dealt with, sugar beet, by giving a email subsidy. The amount of money involved would not be very large. It would be better to give a direct subsidy than to give the indirect subsidy which a tariff always means. In regard to the chemical industry, it has to be remembered that some of the chemicals that to-day are important may be super- seded by discoveries in years to come. Therefore, it does not necessarily follow that during the 10 years that the Bill is to cover it will dispose of all the problems which the Minister is now facing. I think it is against the interests of trade to have constant interference of duties and Customs on the frontier. While I recognise that some of these industries are of national value and importance, I believe there are other and better ways in which the problem can be faced.
I do not think that anything we have heard from the benches opposite is likely to disturb seriously the impression created by the speech of the President of the Board of Trade. That speech was at once attractive and convincing. One interesting point to those of us who have taken an interest in education was mentioned. My right hon. Friend referred to the assistance that the Safeguarding of Industries Act had given in contriving the marriage of science and industry, with the result that a very much larger opportunity had been afforded to our people in the matter of scientific employment. That is of the utmost importance to this country. I know that in these days of trade depression we inevitably concentrate on the quantity of employment. If times were better it would be only proper to give attention, not merely to quantity, but to quality of employment. If we are constantly raising our standard of education, if we are affording facilities for all classes to receive that education, and we cannot afford a very much increased opportunity to the boys who have received that higher training, we are bound to have great discontent. It seems to me to be a corollary of the higher education that we give, that we should as far as possible strive to improve the quality of our employment, and afford larger opportunity to those who are able to take advantage of that higher grade of employment.
For that reason the Committee must have been very glad to hear the proved results, so far, of the operation of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I have no wish to show a particularly biased mind in the matter, but I am justified in saying that the President of the Board of Trade was able to offer proofs in abundance in vindication of his proposal to extend the operation of the Act for some years. I know that the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), in obedience, I suppose, to instinct as much as to anything else, found it necessary to take exception to these proposals. He seemed to rejoice that he had discovered that, coincident with the putting into operation of the 1921 Act, we had the beginning of a, trade depression. Undoubtedly it is so. But what earthly connection there is between that trade depression and the putting into operation of the 1921 Act, not even the right hon. Gentleman could discover. It would be rather interesting for him to pursue that particular hare. Where do you find depression? In those heavy industries which are most afflicted by the curse of political interference. When we come to the lighter industries represented by the commodities affected by the Safeguarding of Industries Act, where we find industry resting solely on a businesslike basis with no political interference, we have healthy prosperity. We can trust our craftsmen if they are given freedom of action for their craftsmanship.
The right hon. Member for Colne Valley said in effect "Bless my heart, the prosperity attending the operation of the Act has been such, why do you not drop the Protection now? One asks, why drop the Protection? The President of the Board of Trade not only vindicated his claim to a large increase of employment, but made out his case further—that coincident with the increased employment resulting from the greater prosperity of industries covered by the Act, w> had a falling price. Of course, we have a falling price. Security is given to the industry, and if the price is falling under the stimulus of the security, why drop the security? Why not extend the security still further? The right hon. Member for Colne Valley also said that there was no form of Protection benefiting one industry which did not result in a corresponding disadvantage to other industries. Whoever heard of any industry being hampered by the falling prices of another article? If the President of the Board of Trade is able to make it clear that the Safeguarding of Industries Act has not only begotten greater prosperity and employment, but also falling prices, how can anyone argue that that fall in price can possibly interfere with any other industry?
I was glad to hear the Minister say that, not only were the Government behind this proposal, but they had behind them also a united party. I believe that he simply stated a fact. I have heard time and again of the seeming inconsistency between the attitude of our party and, indeed, the attitude of the electorate in the Elections of 1923 and 1924. I discovered m those Elections a splendid proof of the peculiar caution of the British people. In 1923, I admit, we went to the country with a proposal which would have made a complete volte face of our Free Trade traditions. The country said "No." When in 1924 we advocated the Safeguarding of Industries Act, Imperial Preference and so forth, the country showed its adaptability and readiness for change, when the change was for the good of the country, and the electorate said, "Yes, this is more to our mind, and we shall give it a trial." We have thus an exhibition of typical British caution. I predict that the trial will convince them of the soundness of the policy of the Government. I hope that the result of the Minister's efforts in extending the Act will be that he will be encouraged on some future occasion to extend the principle still further.
I assume that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is to reply, and I would like to sum up the points on which we consider that the speech of the President of the Board of Trade has not satisfactorily answered the issues laid before him. First of all, it must be made clear that, if it could be proved that these duties and these duties alone could safeguard the State in time of danger, there would be no opposition to them in any part of the House. What we claim from the experience of five years, and the report of the Parliamentary Secretary himself, is that it is now clear that these duties give no security at all and that there are alternatives which would, if necessary, attain the objects in which these duties have up to the present failed. The President of the Board of Trade stated that these industries which were subjected to safeguarding had shown a record of improvement in quality, range and research and had by this time established confidence. The test of the final success of these duties laid down by the Prime Minister when they were proposed was to be whether or not at the end of five years these industries could stand unassisted on their own bases. It is no use the President of the Board of Trade saying that the Prime Minister merely expressed a hope that this would happen at the end of five years, because the right hon. Gentleman did more than that. He made the specific statement that that was the test and that he was not willing to accept Protection for longer than that period. I will quote part of the Prime Minister's speech, which has not yet been quoted: hon. Gentleman's reputation as an expert on fine chemicals and scientific instruments and mathematical drawing appliances is, no doubt, properly appreciated in the scientific world. But we know him here as a convinced Protectionist partisan and, for that reason, we say that this committee was an improper tribunal to investigate a question in which the interests of the manufacturers who were going to lose as well as those who were going to gain were most fundamentally concerned.
Our objection to these duties is that they are misleading the country. They will provide no security in time of war. If these industries are really essential in time of war, and if we are dependent on these duties to preserve them, then, we are living in a fool's paradise and we shall find the whole thing slip from under our feet when the first threat of war arises. As the right hon. Gentleman would not receive information, and as information has been given to us, I would like to know his answer on certain points. Take the chemical trade. I learn that he has put about 5,000 different articles on this chemical schedule. The companies concerned look on that schedule purely from a commercial point of view. All they are concerned with is to make the best dividends for their shareholders. They are not concerned, as commercial organisations, with the argument which the President of the Board of Trade puts before this committee. Now, we are told that out of these 5,000 articles they have selected those which are favourable commercial propositions, and have neglected others and have not produced them at all, without taking into account whether or not they would be required in time of war. The fact is that behind the facade of these Safeguarding of Industries duties the Government are building up a series or fictitious industries which will collapse like houses of cards if ever war breaks out. If it is necessary to preserve these industries, it will be found on inquiry that the difficulties from, which they suffer are of a kind for which these tariffs are no cure.
Take one which has not been referred to up to the present, namely, the manufacture of arc-lamp carbons. What is the position to-day? If arc-lamp carbons are going to make the difference between safety and danger in time of war, then, I say these duties are incapable of maintaining that industry and are misleading us as to the real position. The duties have been imposed for five years. What has been the result? I believe only one firm makes arc-lamp carbons, and I am told the greater part of the plant of that firm is being closed down. What is the cause? It is not a cause which duties can cure. The cause simply is that electric light is displacing this method of lighting and that, with the exception of one or two large towns—like Manchester, I believe—this is becoming an obsolete method of illuminating streets and the industry, for that reason, is disappearing through causes which no duties will be able to impede. If that be so, then the whole of this argument is built upon foundations of sand which will disappear as soon as any necessity arises.
We cannot enter into alternative methods, but the Prime Minister indicated five years ago that, if it was found that the duties did not put these industries on their feet and establish them on a large scale, alternative methods would be explored. Are alternative methods being explored1? There is no indication in any of these Reports that the slightest attention has been given to these subjects. Alternative methods have been proposed. In the case of the arc-lamp carbons, for instance, it is suggested that it might be possible for the very tiny output which is now, I believe, produced by the General Electricity Company, to be produced under Government auspices in some arsenal, or perhaps in the National Physical Laboratory at Teddington. Has that proposal been explored? I do not believe it has. There is no evidence of it at all. Our objection to these duties is that they do not secure the object at which they are aimed, and we suspect that the Government behind these duties are, in reality, sacrificing the safety of which they speak and are endangering us, because of this Protectionist hallucination which prevents them from exploring any other method of achieving the object which they desire.
I listened with great attention to the remarks of the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) and was interested to observe that his argument seemed to be based on the assumption that we were going to war in the near future. I agree that one ought to be very careful in taking steps to ensure our security as a nation and as an Empire, but we on this side of the House do not share the very gloomy forebodings and predictions of the hon. Member. We hope to escape from entering upon war on a large scale until perhaps the time comes when these duties may be removed in 15 or 20 years. I wished to comment on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) but that would apparently be fruitless because the interest of the Liberal party in Free Trade is at present not so acute as their interest in getting rid of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George).
They are holding another unity meeting.
Certain remarks were made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) to which I should like to refer. The right hon. Gentleman described a speech of the President of the Board of Trade as being typical of the Oxford University manner. The right hon. Gentleman's speech was most certainly typical of his own vituperative and sardonic manner. He had the audacity to imply that the beginning of the present trade depression coincided with the institution of the present safeguarding duties. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the trade depression arose out of causes which had nothing whatever to do with the imposition of any safeguarding duties. It was due to a certain extent to the condition of Europe, and to a still greater extent to certain financial measures which were taken, and to the fact that a period of inflation was followed by a period of deflation which could not have been avoided, as the right hon. Gentleman knows very well. I am certain that elsewhere; than in this Committee the right hon. Gentleman would never for one moment contend that the present duties had anything to do with the trade depression under which we are suffering. If the right hon. Gentleman is anxious to press this question I might ask him, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd) did, where does the depression lie? It lies entirely in the heavy industries—in those very industries which are not protected. I believe un- repentantly that, if we had had our way in 1923, and had protected the iron and steel industries, we should never have had the depression which we see in them to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to declare that we were breaking our pledges. I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman accuse the Government and the Prime Minister of breaking pledges now for a year and a half, and I often wonder whether he would think it worth his while to turn up the Prime Minister's election address and read it, because in this way a great deal of time might be saved to him and to us. There is no question of breaking pledges. The Prime Minister said he proposed to introduce Measures for the safeguarding of industries or analogous Measures. Therefore, the question of breaking pledges does not arise. We said we were going to do it, and we are doing it.
The last point that was made by the right hon.Gentleman—and it was made also by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith)—was that because the present Prime Minister observed five years ago, in totally different circumstances, that it might happen that these duties should be removed five years hence, that was an argument for removing them now. What has that to do with the present position? If we are going to bind ourselves for the future to carrying out what any Minister at any given moment may express five years behind the time when we are considering a proposal, I do not know where we shall land ourselves. We have to judge the position as it is today, and it is that these duties have been enormously successful. We should be absolutely insane if we took them off, and I think anybody who listened in an unbiased spirit to the speech of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley and put it against the speech of the President of the Board of Trade could not but be convinced that the one was that of a theorist clinging like grim death to his theories, which were being shattered at every moment by the death blows of the President of the Board of Trade. He brought facts to bear upon the question instead of theories. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley concluded his speech with a reference to the national instrument of my countrymen, which was both inappropriate and irrelevant, and I hope the Committee will not think it necessary to divide on this Amendment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Eastern Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. Boothby) has just summed up the difference between the speeches from the Opposition side and that of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, because the former speeches were obviously those of theorists, and his was a speech arising out of the experience and research of a Committee that was appointed—it must be remembered, when we are considering this Committee and its constitution and objects—not to explore any area which had not been subject to a duty, but to examine facts, to obtain records, and to form an opinion as a result of those records. That is precisely what the Committee has done. As to the constitution of that Committee, my right hon. Friend has dealt with that, and I will not say more about it. [ Laughter. ] Well, I will say this much more about it, that a good deal has been said about my own views. I am not here to express my own views, but those of the Government. Also Sir Arthur Colefax has been referred to, and I remember one day chaffing Sir Arthur Colefax because he had appeared before the Referee under Part I of the Act, since 1921, in a number of cases on each side, and he had been equally successful in both. I think that is a testimony to his unbiased mind. As to the two distinguished scientists, I do not think there is any reason to suppose they were in the least concerned with anything but the welfare of the industries.
With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) as to why, as he put it, we had departed from the statement that was made in 1921 by the then President of the Board of Trade, the present Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend expressed the truth when I understood him to say that the President of the Board of Trade at that time was probably expressing an opinion. What more could he do? Was he to foresee—and this has been entirely ignored in all the speeches that I have heard—the result of the immense War surplus on these industries, which has been pressing on them all this time, and under which they have managed to survive, in spite of all those difficulties? Was he to foresee all the effects of the aftermath of the War? I have read his speech, and I do not take it to be more than the expression of an opinion. As to the industries having become rooted in this country, I say they are rooted, and very definitely rooted, in this country. It still requires some assistance to enable them to withstand the competition which is still raging and which is still arising out of the depreciated currency, although the German mark has been stabilised. It is still necessary to give them assistance to stand up against that storm, but when I read to hon. Members, as I will do, the result that the Act has had on these industries, I think they will agree with me, in spite of themselves, that these industries may be said to be firmly rooted in this country.
Let me just quote two or three results in figures as to home production. I will take our optical glass industry, of which so much has been said. The optical glass consumption of this country to-day, in so far as it has been supplied by our home production, is being supplied as to 80 per cent., whereas in 1913 it was being supplied as to 10 per cent. by home production. For the scientific glassware industry the figures are 10 per cent. home production in 1913 and 45 per cent. in 1925. In laboratory porcelain there was no home supply in 1913, and it is now 40 per cent. In gauges we were supplied as to 5 per cent. from home production in 1913 and 95 per cent. in 1925. In vacuum tubes the figures were 10 per cent. in 1913 and 20 per cent. in 1925; and in magnetos they were 5 per cent. and 90 per cent. respectively. Throughout the whole examination of this matter that story runs, that story of immense increase of production, although still, I admit, fighting under the greatest difficulties in competition, but it is mainly because we wish to take advantage of the benefit that has accrued to these industries through the operation of the Act that we consider that the Act should still be continued.
Another thing that has been lost sight of is this: An hon. Member opposite referred to the German demand for binoculars, and he asked how it was, if we had lost our fighting forces' demand in this country for binoculars and so forth, the Germans were not in the same position. Had their Army not gone to the same extent? Of course it has, but the German has captured his home market. That is what we are trying to do here, and if we can get our home market, we shall be in the same position as Germany. Germany, by reason of her enormous standing Army for all those years, having had generations of trained people in the industry, is able to get a grip of her home market, and that is another reason for optimism in this respect, in my view. Another very important feature in regard to the value of these industries is the opportunity for the training, of the highest and the most technical kind, of boys and girls in our schools and universities, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd). Numerically, of course, any question of employment in these industries is very small, but it is of immense value not only to them, but to the whole nation, that the children of our schools and universities—and I suppose there is no finer training laboratory in the country than the laboratory in our national schools—should have an outlet in highly scientific and technical work. We are now doing that, and so we are tending to bring this country on to a level that it should stand upon with other countries of high scientific attainment. I have nothing further to add, as all the other points will come up as we proceed with the Amendments.
In regard to what the Parliamentary Secretary has just said about the position of the optical glass industry, it appears rather curious, if it is in such a properous condition, that the following paragraph should have been written: I refer to paragraph 22, on page 10 of the Report of the Board of Trade Committee: who put the safeguarding duties on thought the numbers of men would increase by leaps and bounds, but actually they have gone down from 78 per cent. to 60 per cent. Where the prosperity comes in for the working men of this country from safeguarding in that industry passes my comprehension. This safeguarding duty was put on in order to do away with the depression in the industry, and the Report says:
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The hon. Gentleman cannot say that these cameras are coming in as the result of lower-paid labour, because many of them come from Canada, and three-quarters of the labour on them is performed in the United States, where labour is paid higher wages than anywhere in the world. Apparently the Act has not been successful in keeping them out. In regard to the quality of the product, I believe the right hon. Gentleman, in his speech, again made great play with the fact that the quality of our product had gone up progressively. I find on page 18, in regard to the quality of porcelain, that the Report says: So that from the point of view of safeguarding, the last five years has not been that success which the speeches of the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite would seem to indicate either in regard to reduced prices, the volume of employment, or the quality of the products. As to the keeping out of the foreign article this safeguarding of the industry has failed from the very evidence submitted by the right hon. Gentleman himself.
I shall not detain the Committee for more than a moment in saying something about my own experience when I was called upon to deal with disputes which have arisen under this part of the Act. I was a, Free Trader. I am still a Free Trader. The experience however which I gained convinced me, beyond all question, of the efficacy of this part of the Act. The inquiries with which I had to deal were mainly concerned with the fine chemical industry, and among the points one had to consider were the nature and difficulty of production. Again and again one has heard evidence of a most convincing kind of new plant put down and of new processes being adopted, and adopted with entire success. The cumulative effect of what I learned absolutely convinced me that as regards the fine chemical industry this Act has achieved its objects.
There is only one other point. It has been said in Debate that no industry has benefited by this Act except at the expense of other industries. I have heard the whole of this Debate, but I have not heard of any industry that has made a single complaint on that head, or that has complained that they have borne any part of the expenses of the operation of the Act. I cannot say the same of the Dyestuffs Act. There have been many complaints as to the effect of the working of that Act, but in the course of a couple of years I have not heard a single case of any other industry making any complaint whatever against the operation of this. Act.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'ten' in line 24, stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 152.
Division No. 244.] AYES. [6.7 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Dean, Arthur Wellesley Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Eden, Captain Anthony Loder, J. de V. Albery, Irving James Edmondson, Major A. J. Looker, Herbert William Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Elliot, Captain Walter E. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Ellis, R. G. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Elveden, Viscount Lumley, L. R. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Apsley, Lord Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Astbury, Lieut. -Commander F. W. Everard, W. Lindsay Macintyre, Ian Astor, Viscountess Fairfax, Captain J. G. McLean, Major A. Atholl, Duchess of Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macmillan, Captain H. Atkinson, C. Fermoy, Lord Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fielden, E. B. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Bainlel, Lord Finburgh, S. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Ford, Sir P. J. Margesson, Captain D. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Foster, Sir Harry S. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Fraser, Captain Ian Meller, R. J. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Frece, Sir Walter de Meyer, Sir Frank Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Fremantle, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Ganzoni, Sir John Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Berry, Sir George Gates, Percy Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Bethel, A. Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Betterton, Henry B. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Moreing, Captain A. H. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Blades, Sir George Rowland Goff, Sir Park Murchison, C. K. Boothby, R. J. G. Grace, John Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Braithwaite, A. N. Grant, J. A. Neville, R. J. Brass, Captain W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Brassey, Sir Leonard Greene, W. P. Crawford Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gretton, Colonel John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Briggs, J. Harold Grotrian, H. Brent Nuttall, Ellis Briscoe, Richard George Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Oakley, T. Brittain, Sir Harry Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Brockiebank, C. E. R. Gunston, Captain D. W. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Penny, Frederick George Buckingham, Sir H. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Duiwich) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hammersley, S. S. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Bullock, Captain M. Hanbury, C. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Burman, J. B. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Harland, A. Philipson, Mabel Burton, Colonel H. W. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Pielou, D. P. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Harrison, G. J. C. Pilcher, G. Caine, Gordon Hall Hartington, Marquess of Pilditch, Sir Philip Cautley, Sir Henry S. Haslam, Henry C. Pownall, Lieut. -Colonel Assheton Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hawke, John Anthony Preston, William Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Price, Major C. W. M. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Radford, E. A. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Heneage, Lieut. -Col. Arthur P. Ralne, W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Rees, Sir Beddoe Chapman, Sir S. Hills, Major John Walter Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington) Chilcott, Sir Warden Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Christie, J. A. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Remer, J. R. Clarry, Reginald George Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remnant, Sir James Clayton, G. C. Holland, Sir Arthur Rentoul, G. S. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Holt, Captain H. P. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Rice, Sir Frederick Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hopkins, J. W. W. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Conway, Sir W. Martin Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Cooper, A. Duff Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Ropner, Major L. Cope, Major William Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Couper, J. B. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Courtauld, Major J. S. Hume, Sir G. H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hurd, Percy A. Sandeman, A. Stewart Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N) Hurst, Gerald B. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midl'n & Peebles) Sanderson, Sir Frank Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sandon, Lord Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S. Savery, S. S. Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Galnsbro) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Jacob, A. E. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Curzon, Captain Viscount Jephcott, A. R. Shepperson, E. W. Dalkeith, Earl of Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Dalziel, Sir Davison Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Davies, Dr. Vernon King, Captain Henry Douglas Sprot, Sir Alexander Davies, Maj. Geo.F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lamb, J. Q. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Dawson, Sir Philip Lister, Cunilffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Steel, Major Samuel Strang Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Waddington, R. Wise, Sir Fredric Strickland, Sir Gerald Wallace, Captain D. E. Withers, John James Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Warrender, Sir Victor Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Styles, Captain H. Walter Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Watts, Dr. T. Worthington- Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Wells, S. R. Wragg, Herbert Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) Tinne, J. A. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Tryon, Rt. Hon George Clement Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Rose, Frank H Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Salter, Dr. Alfred Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Scrymgeour, E. Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hardle, George D. Scurr, John Barnes, A. Harris, Percy A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Barr, J. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Batey, Joseph Hastings, Sir Patrick Shiels, Dr. Drummond Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hayes, John Henry Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Briant, Frank Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Sltch, Charles H. Bromfield, William Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Bromley, J. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, Rennie (Penlstone) Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Snell, Harry Cape, Thomas Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Clowes, S. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Cluse, W. S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stamford, T. W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stephen, Campbell Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E. Cove, W. G. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Taylor, R. A. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirkwood, D. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Crawfurd, H. E. Lansbury, George Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Dalton, Hugh Lawrence, Susan Thurtle, E. Davies, David (Montgomery) Lawson, John James Tinker, John Joseph Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Viant, S. P. Dennison, R. Livingstone, A. M. Wallhead, Richard C. Duckworth, John Lowth, T. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Duncan, C. Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Dunnlco, H. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah England, Colonel A. Mackinder, W. Welsh, J. C. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J. Fenby, T. D. MacNeill-Weir, L. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Forrest, W. March, S. Whiteley, W. Gardner, J. P. Montague, Frederick Wiggins, William Martin Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Morris, R. H. Wilkinson, Ellen C. George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, C. P. Denbigh, Wrexham) Gillett, George M. Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gosling, Harry Naylor, T. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Owen, Major G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Greenall, T. Paling, W. Wright, W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Pethick- Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Ponsonby, Arthur Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Groves, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson. Grundy, T. W. Riley, Ben
I beg to move, in page 6, line 24, to leave out the word "ten", and to insert instead thereof the word "two".
I am only moving this Amendment formally.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Clause."
Are we going to have no defence from the Government? Do the Government consider that their majority in the Lobby is a sufficient defence?
:I understood that it was arranged, by general agreement, that there was to be a Division on this Amendment, but no discussion.
I certainly understood from the Deputy-Chairman that the general principle of the Sub-section was to be discussed on the first Amendment, but I did not understand that every other Amendment was to be made the subject of a formal motion.
Not every other Amendment, but this particular one. I put the words of Sub-section down to
this word "ten" in order to leave an opening for another Division.
It was only this Amendment that was to be taken without a discussion.
Question put, "That the word "ten" stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 153.
Division No. 245.] AYES. [6.19 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Albery, Irving James Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Holland, Sir Arthur Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hopkins, J. W. W. Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Dalkeith, Earl of Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Apsley, Lord Dalziel, Sir Davison Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Astbury, Lieut. -Commander F. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Astor, Viscountess Davies, Dr. Vernon Hume, Sir G. H. Atholl, Duchess of Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Atkinson, C. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hurd, Percy A. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hurst, Gerald B. Balniel, Lord Dawson, Sir Philip Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Eden, Captain Anthony Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Edmondson, Major A. J. Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Elliot, Captain Walter E. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Ellis, R. G. Jacob, A. E. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Elveden, Viscount Jephcott, A. R. Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Berry, Sir George Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Bethel, A. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Betterton, Henry B. Everard, W. Lindsay Kidd. J. (Linlithgow) Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Fairfax, Captain J. G. King, Captain Henry Douglas Blades, Sir George Rowland Falle, Sir Bertram G. Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement Boothby, R. J. G. Fermoy, Lord Lamb, J. Q. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Fielden, E. B. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Braithwaite, A. N. Finburgh, S. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Brass, Captain W. Ford, Sir P. J. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Brassey, Sir Leonard Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Foster, Sir Harry S. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Briggs, J. Harold Fraser, Captain Ian Loder, J. de V. Briscoe, Richard George Frece, Sir Walter de Looker, Herbert William Brittain, Sir Harry Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Brocklebank, C. E. R. Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Ganzonl, Sir John Lumley, L. R. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Gates, Percy MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Bullock, Captain M. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Burman, J. B. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Burney, Lieut. -Com. Charles D. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Burton, Colonel H. W. Goff, Sir Park Maclntyre, Ian Butler, Sir Geoffrey Grace, John McLean, Major A. Caine, Gordon Hall Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Macmillan, Captain H. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Greene, W. P. Crawford Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gretton, Colonel John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Grotrian, H. Brent Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Margesson, Captain D. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gunston, Captain D. W. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Chapman, Sir S. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Meller, R. J. Christie, J. A. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Meyer, Sir Frank. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hammersley, S. S. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Clarry, Reginald George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Harland, A. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Moore- Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Harrison, G. J. C. Moreing, Captain A. H. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hartington, Marquess of Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Cooper, A. Duff Haslam, Henry C. Murchlson, C. K. Cope, Major William Hawke, John Anthony Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Couper, J. B. Headlam, Lieut. -Colonel C. M. Neville, R. J. Courtauld, Major J. S. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Courthope, Lieut. -Col. Sir George L. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Nuttall, Ellis Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hills, Major John Walter Oakley, T. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tinne, J. A. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Penny, Frederick George Sandeman, A. Stewart Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Sanderson, Sir Frank Waddington, R. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sandon, Lord Wallace, Captain D. E. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Phillpson, Mabel Savery, S. S. Warrender, Sir Victor Pielou, D. P. Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Pilcher, G. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Pildltch, Sir Philip Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Watts, Dr. T. Pownall, Lieut. -Colonel Assheton Shepperson, E. W. Wells, S. R. Preston, William Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Price, Major C. W M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd' & Klnc'dlne, C.) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Radford, E. A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Raine, W. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Rees, Sir Beddoe Sprot, Sir Alexander Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel George Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Remer, J. R. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wise, Sir Fredrie Remnant, Sir James Steel, Major Samuel Strang Withers, John James Rentoul, G. S. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Wolmer, Viscount Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Rice, Sir Frederick Strickland, Sir Gerald Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Styles, Captain H. Walter Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Ropner, Major L. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wragg, Herbert Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Salmon, Major I. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Major Hennessy and Lord Stanley.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Palin, John Henry Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield. Hillsbro') Groves, T. Paling, W. Attlee, Clement Richard Grundy, T. W. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Ponsonby, Arthur Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Potts, John S. Barnes, A. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Barr, J. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Riley, Ben Batey, Joseph Hardie, George D. Rose, Frank H Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Harney, E. A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Harris, Percy A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Briant, Frank Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scrymgeour, E. Broad, F. A. Hastings, Sir Patrick Scurr, John Bromfield, William Hayday, Arthur Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Bromley, J. Hayes, John Henry Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Buchanan, G. Hirst, G. H. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Cape, Thomas Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Charleton, H. C. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sitch, Charles H. Clowes, S. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Cluse, W. S. John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghiey) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Compton, Joseph Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Snell, Harry Connolly, M. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Cove, W. G. Kelly, W. T. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kennedy, T. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Crawfurd, H. E. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Stamford, T. W. Dalton, Hugh Kirkwood, D. Stephen, Campbell Davies, David (Montgomery) Lansbury, George Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lawrence, Susan Sutton, J. E. Day, Colonel Harry Lawson, John James Taylor, R. A. Dennison, R. Lee, F. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Duckworth, John Lindley, F. W. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Duncan, C. Livingstone, A. M. Thurtle, E. Dunnico, H. Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Lunn, William Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. England, Colonel A. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Viant, S. P. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Wallhead, Richard C. Fenby, T. D. Mackinder, W. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Forrest, W. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Gardner, J. P. MacNeill-Weir, L. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd March, S. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Gillett, George M. Montague, Frederick Welsh, J. C. Gosling, Harry Morris, R. H. Westwood, J. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Murnin, H. Whiteley, W. Greenall, T. Naylor, T. E. Wiggins, William Martin Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne) Oliver, George Harold Wilkinson, Ellen C. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianeily) Wright, W. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
In regard to the next four Amendments, I am in the hands of the Committee, but if the Question is put to leave out Sub-section (2) I think it will be difficult to avoid discussing the date of the commencement and the amount of the duty, and perhaps it may be for the general convenience to follow the same procedure here as in the case of Subsection (1), namely, that we should have a general Debate on the Sub-section as; in whole, and then I will save the following Amendments in case hon. Members wish to have separate Divisions upon them. If that does not suit the general convenience, of course, we can have restricted Debates on each Amendment.
To how many of the detailed Amendments does that refer?
I am willing that that should apply to the three down to the end of page 491 of the Amendment Paper.
I beg to move, in page 6, line 25, to leave out Subsection (2).
This Sub-section is typical of the procedure invariably adopted, not only here, but in other countries, with regard to the policy of Protection. It is generally found, when Protection is introduced, that it is for a limited amount, and very often for a limited period of time. At the end of that period it is generally proposed to continue it for a longer time, and not only so, but to increase the amount. That is precisely what is proposed here in this Sub-section. Not content with a duty of one-third which has prevailed with regard to the articles specified in the Sub-section, it is proposed for the remaining period to raise the percentage to 50 per cent., that is Half the value, instead of one-third as heretofore. We are asked in the case of all these items referred to in Sub-section (2) of the Clause to give them a Protection amounting to one-half for a further period of ten years.
When we are asked to do that, it is necessary for us to ask what has been the effect of the protection these articles have had during the five years period under the one-third protective tariff. The President of the Board of Trade, speaking on the last Amendment, referred to the very great success of the policy which safeguarding had carried out, but I do not think he can really justify that success when he comes to the particular items referred to in the sub-section. In many of the speeches already made in this Debate extracts have been given from the Report, in which it was shown that these industries have not been brought into a flourishing condition by the policy of the Government; indeed, if the position of these industries could be described as flourishing, there would be no reason to increase the amount of protection from one-third to one-half. It is because this protection has failed during the last five years in bringing prosperity to this trade that the President of the Board of Trade asks us this afternoon to increase it to a higher figure. Not only are we faced with the fact that the duty which has already been imposed has not done what the Prime Minister hoped five years ago—that is, enable these industries to stand on their own feet—but it has not brought them prosperity, and yet it is suggested that a further dose of this medicine which has failed in the past five years will bring life and health to these industries. We on our side, who were against the introduction of these duties, are now opposed to a second dose of this medicine which has failed in its first application.
With regard to the whole of this trade, I want to make it perfectly clear that the reason for the depression in these trades at the present time is not the competition of foreign countries. The optical glass industries, not only in this country but throughout Europe, are going through a period of great depression. The British section is not suffering from foreign competition, but through the withdrawal of Government orders. The largest firms before the War were engaged mainly on Government contracts. At that time a number of smaller firms grew up and were mainly kept going by orders which were due to the War. Now there has been economy owing to the reduction of armaments, and consequently there has been a cutting down of Government orders, and whatever duties are imposed, and whatever attempt is made to keep out foreign, articles, that will not restore prosperity to this trade in this country, which is suffering in common with all Europe from the cutting down of the Government demands for this particular kind of glass.
So far as other substances referred to in this Sub-section are concerned, such as cameras which are wanted for the private satisfaction of the individuals who order them, there has been an equal falling off, not only in this country, but all over Europe owing to the falling off of the purchasing power of the people throughout Europe and the poverty which generally prevails. Another reason why our industry in optical glass is not as flourishing as it could be, is the want of initiative in a great deal of the work that is done in this country. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) made some remarks with regard to the failure of employers in this country, and he was taken to task by the President of the Board of Trade for not giving specific examples. Therefore, it will be open to me to give a number of specific examples to show that the glass industry in many cases in this country has been content merely to copy special kinds of the industry being made in Germany. Owing to that copying, they are often a year or two behind, and therefore do not do the business which otherwise they would be entitled to do. I do not propose, unless challenged, to give these specific instances, because I do not think it is good for this country to have particular instances of failure brought home. If, however, anyone suggests that we cannot give such instances, I shall be compelled to produce those which I have, and I think that will be sufficient to justify the remarks I have made.
The point I want to make is that protection of all kinds fosters this lack of initiative. So long as we live in a partly sheltered world where the wind is tempered to the shorn lamb, you will get this failure of initiative, and failure of enterprise which you do not have so long as you are subject to free and open competition. In spite of this, you may be able to retain your home markets, but not your export trade where you have not a sheltered market, and that is exactly what has taken place in this particular industry. This has been pointed out in the report which shows that, notwithstanding the increased rate of production and the better quality of optical glass, the sales are not much in excess of 1921, and exports have fallen almost to negligible dimensions. That is exactly what we should expect from a protective tariff. It may be that we are able to retain a larger part of the home market, but we have lost, as those of us on this side of the House would have predicted, the export market where the shelter of the tariff no longer prevails. Perhaps the President of the Board of Trade will say that it is a great thing to have secured a larger percentage of the home market, but after all is that the point? If the result of the policy is that the home market is reduced, is it any consolation if we retain a larger percentage of that reduced market? Is it not much more important that we should have an aggregate production and market for our goods greater than it was before?
How does this policy operate to reduce the aggregate market? Simply by aritficially keeping up the price. Considerable play is made in several sections of the Report that prices have been suddenly reduced. In paragraph 21 of the Report, which has already been quoted, it is pointed out that, whereas in 1921 prices were 100 per cent. above the 1914 level, they had come down by 1923 to 50 per cent. or 60 per cent., representing a fall of something like 20 per cent. between 1921 and 1923, and something like 30 per cent. between 1921 and the present time. That is held up as showing what heroic efforts the glass manufacturers have made to cut down prices. I would remind the Committee that the general fall in prices between 1921 and to-day is not merely 20 per cent. or 30 per cent., but it is 50 per cent. The general prices of commodities as a whole have fallen by one-half, and the glass industry, sheltered by this tariff wall, has kept its prices very much higher than they would have been if it had followed the average fall in prices in the country as a whole. Therefore, that fall is brought about by financial causes, and the glass industry, while making a show of reducing its price, nevertheless has not reduced the price to the average reduction of other industries in this country.
Let me now come to another thing which has taken place in this industry, and which often takes place in countries where industries are protected. There has been a great deal of over capitalisation in the glass industry. The two largest firms in this industry are the Amalgamated Photographic Manufacturers and the British Photographic Industries. These companies were floated in 1921 at grossly excessive figures. In the case of the Amalgamated Photographic Manufacturers, they have already had to write off no less than £400,000, and very severe comments were made by Mr. Justice Eve recently in regard to the financial position of this concern. The British Photographic Industries Company is also over capitalised, and a note from the auditor to this effect has appeared in their balance-sheet for some time. I have been dealing so far with the failures in the industry, and the reasons why they have not been successful, and I think I have shown that this policy has not given them the advantage which it is alleged it ought to have given them.
Now I come to the other side, that is, the users of these industries. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) explained to the Committee in his speech a few minutes ago that these duties were put on for War purposes, and that they could not be justified on the ground that they merely safeguarded the interests of this country in time of war. He was taken to task by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) on the ground that there was little likelihood of war in the future. If that be true, we are certainly devoutly thankful; we hope very much that there will be no war, certainly for a very considerable time. But, if we are not to consider the war point of view, these duties have no raison d'être at all, and the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley was making, and very properly making, was that, if you are going to justify these duties on the ground that they were a protection in time of war, then the least you are bound to do is to agree that they would be a protection if war arose. My hon. Friend's point was, and I think it is to a large extent clear from the Report itself, that they are not fulfilling that particular function. The Report, however, says that, now that we have passed from a period of war to a period of peace, these industries are just as much key industries, because they are of great value for peace purposes; and it was further pointed out, either by the President of the Board of Trade or by the Parliamentary Secretary, that the products of these industries are very largely used in the manufacturing and other industries of this country. That argument seems to me to go exactly contrary to the perpetuation and increase of these duties.
Take, for instance, one of the great uses of glass. It is used for medical purposes, for research in hospitals, in time of peace. What do the people who use that glass want; Do they want to make quite sure that every bit of glass which they use was made in this country, or do they want to make quite sure that they have efficient glass for their purpose at a reasonably cheap price? As far as the interests of peace, the interests of the hospitals, the interests of medical research generally, are concerned, surely it is the latter that they require, and, if you are going to put to some extent an embargo, or at any rate a tariff, on the introduction of efficient glass at a reasonable price from abroad, you are not benefiting, as is suggested, these users of glass, but you are injuring and to a certain extent crippling them in what they want to do. That is true to at least an equal extent also in the industries which use this glass. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade pointed out, quite correctly, that the number of industries which make use of this glass for various. purposes is large and increasing, and that many of the articles—he quoted periscopes and various other things—that they use are of very great value in industry. Again, what is it that these industries require? In order that they may do their work efficiently, they want efficient optical instruments, and, in order that these industries may reduce their overhead charges, in order that they may flourish, they want to get these things as cheaply as possible. No one can pretend that, if you put a tariff of 50 per cent. on the import of foreign glass, you are going to enable these industries to get these things which they require more cheaply than they otherwise would do. Obviously, you are going to increase the price of these articles.
To come to another point, paragraph 17 of the Report says that the German market is larger than our market here. Speaking merely geographically that may be true, but if you take into account the purchasing power of the people I do not think it is true at all. I think that our home market is quite as large as the German market, if it is given a chance. Paragraph 24 argues that, because the producers have spent a great deal of money, therefore, they must be given further protection. That, again, seems to be an entirely fallacious idea. If you are going to apply it to this particular industry, it seems to me that equally it can be applied to all cases in which Protection is demanded. Of course, hon. Members opposite, who are entire Protectionists, will say, "Very good; we do want to apply Protection all round." But these duties are not being defended on those lines; they are defended on specific lines, and it is pretended that are not protective in the ordinary way. Therefore, the argument fails to carry weight in that respect. Now I want to come to the question of cameras. The essential idea that professes to be behind this Section of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, which is being introduced in this Clause of this Bill, is that the industries in question are key industries, which are, or might be, required for war purposes. It may be quite true that in the case of the very best lenses there may be some argument of that kind, but it certainly does not apply to the cheaper lenses which find their way into the very large number of cameras that we have in this country. It seems to me entirely ridiculous that the duties, now to be increased to 50 per cent. should extend to all cameras just because they have lenses in their make-up.
I want to draw the attention of the Committee to the special way in which this tax is levied. If the tax were levied on the value of the lens, the effect upon the cheap camera would not be very great, because the value of the lens of the cheap camera is but a very small part of the value of the camera, and the total duty levied in that way would be almost negligible. But, as I understand the application of these duties—no doubt the President of the Board of Trade will correct me if I am wrong—the duty is levied upon the whole article; that is to say, if the camera is worth 10s., it may be that the lens is only worth a few pence, but the duty is to be 50 per cent. on the value of the whole camera. That brings us to this curious position, that the duty is very much greater in proportion in the case of cheap articles than in the case of dear articles. Let me give an illustration. An expensive camera, worth, say, 15 guineas, is expensive. largely because it has a very valuable lens. In such a case the lens may be worth 50 per cent. of the value of the camera. The duty is imposed, as I have pointed out, not on the value of the lens, but on the value of the camera, so that this 50 per cent. duty which the importer is to be called upon to pay would, in the case of a camera of the value of 15 guineas, amount to 7½ guineas, which would roughly correspond with the value of the lens. He would be paying, therefore, the value of the lens in duty. Now take the case of a cheap camera costing something like 10s. The value of the lens in that camera is only something like 5 per cent., that is to say, it is only worth about 6d. On that cheap camera, costing 10s., there will be imposed a duty of 50 per cent., that is to say, 5s., so that you are, in fact, charging 5s. on a lens worth 6d. or ten times the value of the lens. This is the same anomaly which exists in the new Silk Duties that were imposed last year, but it is particularly flagrant in this case.
It may be said, "No one can say that these cameras are necessaries of life; what does it matter if you do put a tax upon their entry?" What I am trying to point out is that it is an injury to trade if you make a simple pleasure, or luxury, if you like to call it so, dearer than it otherwise would be. Perhaps some hon. Members will say, "But it does not affect British trade, because it is only foreign-made cameras that are taxed." I venture to suggest that that is not correct. In the first place, even when you are dealing with imported foreign articles, there is a very great deal of trade and profits and wages arising from them in this country. There is the carriage from abroad; there are the retailers who sell the articles; and, over and above all that, in connection with every camera that is sold a great deal of other material made in this country requires to be sold at the same time. There are things like albums, tripods, printing frames, mounts, enlargers, dark room lamps, print rollers, and so on. You cannot reduce or cut off trade by these artificial means without injuring the trade and prosperity of this country and reducing employment; and what is true of cameras is also true of a great number of other things which are covered by these duties. Just in the same way as the cheap lens will, under this proposal, pay a much higher rate of duty than the expensive lens, although, as a matter of fact, it is far less related to the question of safeguarding for war purposes, so in the case of cheap opera glasses the lenses will pay a much higher percentage of duty than the lenses in expensive field glasses. Right through the whole rune the vicious principle that the cheap article is called upon to pay a much higher rate of duty than the dear article.
Finally, I should like to say this. These protective tariffs are mainly directed against Germany. I am not going to say that we have not to consider our own country first before we consider Germany. That is perfectly true, but the question we have to consider is whether, by this attempted exclusion of German goods, we are really furthering the interests of this country. Hon. Members opposite often say, "These goods which are made in Germany ought to be made here, and we will exclude them." Then they come to something else, and say it was made in Germany, and, therefore, must be excluded, so that it may be made here. Nevertheless, those hon. Gentlemen are the very ones who demand a large reparation payment from Germany. How in the world do they imagine that these reparations are going to be paid? They are not going to be paid in paper; they are not going to be paid in currency; they cannot be paid in any other way than by goods or services rendered by the Germans to this country, and it is perfectly inconsistent of hon. Members opposite that in one breadth they should demand heavy reparations, and in the next demand every conceivable means of keeping out German goods. For my part, I recognise that we have to keep reparations down to a reasonable figure; and that we have to give reasonable opportunities for the entry of German goods. It is only by taking that reasonable view of both these questions that the account can be balanced.
We have recently made a Treaty with Germany containing the most-favoured-nation Clause, and it is very undesirable that we should try to keep that Treaty in the letter while breaking it in the spirit. If, wherever there is an opportunity, good German articles are allowed to come into this country, it will be of value to the industries of this country, and will increase the trade of this country, and will increase the trade of this country. If we think it necessary to try to keep them out, we shall be taking a very bad step, not only as regards international relationships, but as regards actual benefit to the trade and industry of this country.
7.0 P.M.
I have noticed the absence both of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary. I notice a Junior Lord of the Treasury present, but I do not think he has any part in the Budget. I do not think this is treating the Committee with respect. Is there any way of compelling the attendance of the right hon. Gentleman and his assistant?
No.
I hesitated to rise, because I thought some of the other points were being raised on this Amendment, and that we were going to take all the points raised by the three subsequent Amendments in this one discussion. As no other Member has risen, I will deal with the points which have been raised, and, in anticipation, with the points in the other Amendments. The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) said we were not entitled to propose duties upon optical glass, because the depression which had come about was a depression which was not peculiar to this country, but was common to Europe, and that in consequence there were fewer orders. A worse reason for abandoning that protection which was necessary five years ago I cannot conceive. What does he say? He admits the importance of this industry. The House has already decided that optical glass and optical instruments are important for peace purposes as well as, for war. But, says the hon. Member, your market is reduced owing to diminished purchasing power, owing to the fact that there are large stocks, and owing to a general absence of orders. Therefore, says he, let us abandon all the protection. If the market is smaller, if there is only a limited sale which can be obtained in this country for this vital industry, which we must keep alive, with skilled workmen whom it takes years to train, that must be the very time when it is necessary to safeguard and' protect it. The more you produce the cheaper it will be. The hon. Gentleman has been very fond of telling the country for many years past that the only result of Protection is that you make everything very much dearer. The hon. Gentleman said prices here are higher than for other commodities. As a matter of fact, they are not. The prices of these articles, which admittedly it is very difficult to produce cheaply, are from 30 to 60 per cent. only above pre-War prices, which on the whole is lower than the average rise in price of other articles.
What I was dealing with was the fall since 1921.
I know the hon. Gentleman said that, but let us have the whole picture presented. Prices never rose in this industry. Why? Because the competition was so keen. Prices in 1921 never rose to the height they rose in other industries, and consequently a loss was made all along the line. If we are going to compare the prices in this industry with prices in other industries as they are to-day, let us look at the general level of prices. I say, where the price is only from 30 to 60 per cent. above pre-War, that is not an unreasonable rise of price, and compares favourably with the general rise in other industries. The hon. Gentleman said there is a terrible lack of initiative. It is only he who says that. It is not the Department of Scientific Research who say it. It is not the Government Laboratory, the National Physical Laboratory, who apply the tests, who say that. Their evidence is that the quality of these articles is very high. It is not the evidence of the Fighting Services. They have to have these optical instruments in great variety and of extreme accuracy.
You do not take the evidence of any but your own partisans.
No, Sir, the National Physical Laboratory is no partisan. That is a most improper observation. The hon. Gentleman's definition of "partisan" is someone who does not agree with him, and while on this point the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) thought it incumbent upon him to attack a very distinguished lawyer who is not in this House to defend himself. He said he is prejudiced. He cannot give a clear judgment. Really, that kind of thing may be all right said by some chance speaker on a tub at a street corner. When the right hon. Gentleman who has been Chancellor of the Exchequer, and is one of the leaders of that party, makes statements of that kind, it ought not to pass without comment. The hon. Gentleman says that there was lack of initiative. The Fighting Services do not say that. Those who are responsible for equipping the Navy, Army and. Air Forces have all said publicly that they find that their most minute requirements are fulfilled by the optical glasses of this country to their complete satisfaction.
Why increase the tariff?
Because they cannot make a profit. This industry is efficient. It cannot obviously carry on in the face of keen competition without protection.
That means that prices must go up.
No. The hon. Gentleman says they do not show initiative. As a matter of fact, this industry, struggling in great adversity, has developed a new testing apparatus for opitical glass which is finer and better, I am informed, than any testing apparatus which has yet been developed in other countries. The Committee find that every effort has been made to keep the trade efficient. He says they are inefficient because of Protection. He says, "If you want to see where the industry is efficient, look at Germany. In this country they are months behind. They ought to imitate the Germans."
Let us look at Germany. Is Germany a Free Trade country? Has Germany built up its optical-glass industry without a tariff? If it is the one example which the hon. Gentleman can point to, where is his argument that inefficiency is caused by a tariff? His next argument was— and I dealt with this on the previous Amendment—that these articles were only useful in war. They are vital to all research to-day. They are vital in industry. The hon. Gentleman is very short-sighted, if he will allow me to say so, if he allows the great basic industries of this country to go on and deprives them of the key industries on which their safety and security rests. That, indeed, would be a short-sighted policy. He then said, "Why do we tax cameras?" We tax cameras because they are optical instruments. We tax them for the excellent reason that if you are to have an industry and be able to build it up it is no good selecting here and there an item and saying, "Let us tax this and that." You have to protect the general products of that industry. That is why the camera and opera glasses are protected.
Finally, the hon. Gentleman raised the old argument that this was contrary in some mysterious way to the German Treaty. That argument has been put in this House ad nauseam on many occasions. It is not only not contrary to the spirit of the German Treaty, but the whole of the action we propose to take in regard to key industries was made plain at the time of the Treaty and our intention was inserted in protocol. These words appear: purpose of the duty can be contravened. Do not let the House stultify itself by postponing the operation of the Clause and allowing a period for the imports to be dumped upon us.
The only other point raised is with regard to the duty on arc lamp carbons. The duty at the present time is an ad valorem duty of 33⅓ per cent. It is quite inadequate to protect this industry, which is essential for example to the Air Ministry. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggest that either warships or anti-aircraft defence can be carried on without searchlights?
The right hon. Gentleman's speech really deserves more than an interruption.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman compliments me. There is no doubt that this is an essential industry for the purposes of national defence. If that be so, let us protect it effectively. We put on a duy of 33⅓ per cent., which we thought would be adequate for the purpose. Had that duty been levied upon the ordinary price at which those commodities are sold in this country by the importer, the duty would have been adequate, but what we found was happening was that arc lamp carbons were being imported invoiced by the foreign manufacturers at the very low price of £4 a 1,000. They were then sold to the buyers in this country at a very much higher price. Therefore, we proposed to take the simple expedient of substituting for the ad valorem duty of 33⅓ per cent. a specific duty of 1s. per lb., which will be equivalent to 33⅓ per cent. on the general price at which the goods are sold in this country. In doing that we are taking what is a reasonable, practicable and convenient step in order to maintain that measure of protection which the House has previously given to this industry.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) raised a point of order which you, Sir, ruled was not a point for the Chair, but which is certainly a point for comment by Members of the House. This is supposed to be a Budget. I have seen very many Budgets, but I do not recollect until recent years ever having seen the chief finance Measure of the year debated in the absence of any representative whatever of the Treasury. It is an alteration of practice which may have very serious results, and it indicates, at any rate, that this has nothing to do with the raising of revenue at all. It is spatchcocked into, the Finance Bill, but it is an attempt to carry out the Protectionist policy of the Government in a simple form camouflaged under the pretence of being a revenue-producing Measure. I do not know and I do not care if the Chancellor approves these things or not. They are defended entirely on the ground of Protection, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has never ceased to tell us that he himself remains a Free Trader. He remains an absentee, and what his views are is really sufficiently unimportant, but what is important is that he does not think it worth while, as the official head of the Treasury, to attend the Debates on the Finance Bill.
Speaking from memory, I can give the hon. and gallant Gentleman a parallel drawn from the Liberal part. The licensing Section of the famous Budget of 1909 was conducted by the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, and not by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
No doubt the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right.
We seem to be getting away from the Amendment, and in any case I have no power to issue a writ of capeas against the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
No doubt you yourself, Sir, from the Chair could correct the false impression which has been given of the action of the Government in 1909. What are the Amendments to this protective measure called Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act? There is a number of Amendments which were proposed in secret by a partisan Committee, set up privately, whose existence was concealed by the President of the Board of Trade. In the autumn of last year inquiries were addressed to the Government as to what should be done about Part I, which expires this year. They were extremely elusive and evasive on the point. They said they were considering the matter. They further informed bodies of business men who inquired that communications must be addressed to the Board of Trade. All the time there was a secret conclave if partisans—the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly right in that— who were preparing these new protective measures. The President of the Board of Trade, as usual when he is at a lose for an argument for the defence, ranges himself behind this so-called Committee. If they are civil servants or serving as civil servants, he must defend their action. If they are a Committee, they must be exposed to attack. There is no choice between those two positions.
There is one curious thing about these Amendments. They include the raising of the duty on optical glass and optical instruments. Does the President of the Board of Trade remember that all the paraphernalia set up by Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act was put into motion for the purpose of examining this claim only four years ago? There was a Committee set up, and then it was not a secret Committee. It was not a partisan Committee. It was not a Committee that selected the witnesses who were to appear. It was a public Committee set up under the Safeguarding of Industries Act in 1923, and these people who are now getting these enormous duties to protect their trade went before the Committee and laid their case. The Committee found that had no case, and even the Government of the day, shamelessly Protectionist as it was, declined to grant the duty, and having failed to-make out the case according to the terms of the White Paper, the right hon. Gentleman said, "If this open Court will not do, I will have a Star Chamber which will bring in a verdict in accordance with my own fiscal predilections." These things are injuring science and they are injuring medicine. What is the good of saying to people who are trying to put up hospitals or scientific institutions, "We are going to raise the cost of your apparatus in the supposed interest of what are called key industries." I am told—in all these technical matters one has to depend upon information supplied—that some of the articles which are used in hospitals and are necessary to hospital work are only produced in France and Germany. What justification can there possibly be for reducing the beneficent work of the hospitals by raising the charges of the apparatus they employ in this work? Of course once you start by putting a Chinese wall round a country and excluding the scientific devices of other countries, you are hindering our opportunty of becoming scientific and1 progressive. Does anyone suppose that a tariff will protect science and enterprise? A tariff will give profits but it will never protect the scientific advance of a cuuntry.
As regards the details with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt, he spoke of an Amendment for raising the duty on arc lamp carbons and he gave a case where some arc lamp carbons were invoiced at a false price. Surely the Treasury has some means at its disposal for preventing fraud of that description. Does he mean to say that the only remedy for an importer who falsely invoices the import price of his article is to raise the duty? I have never heard of such a thing.
I did not say all the invoices. I said German exporters chose to invoice at a price very much below the price at which they are selling in Germany, and it was in order to prevent that practice that we are altering the duty.
Why did not the right hon. Gentleman take the simple course of having the things valued at their true value?
That is what I am doing.
No, the right hon. Gentleman is raising the duty. That is a very different thing. It may point to a deficiency in his Department, but it is not an argument for raising the duty. I am told in fact that this alteration in the duty, charging so much a ton instead of so much ad valorem, represents a very severe increase. The figures quoted to me were an increase from £240 to £640 on one consignment. In whose interest is that rise? The right hon. Gentleman says it is for the Navy and for the Air Force. The percentage of arc-lamp carbons used in the Navy and Air Force is 3 per cent. Ninety per cent. of the carbons imported are used for cinematograph entertainment. Really the argument is not worthy of the right hon. Gentleman. The right thing to do, if he thinks these arc-lamp carbons are necessary for war purposes, is to manufacture them, pay for them and see that he gets the best. Some hundreds of millions of pounds are voted annually for the purpose of defending the country. To pretend, on a 3 per cent. basis, that this thing, which is a protection for the cinematograph industry, is done in order to protect us against the foreign foe, is, an argument which has really no weight at all. So far from this duty increasing the manufacture of these goods, I am told it is decreasing. The General Electric Company has a smaller output of arc-lamp carbons than before the duty was imposed. If that be the case, what becomes of the argument that we are laying up a store for the next war, which in due time under a Conservative Government will probably come?
The worst of all these proposals is the sham character of the arguments by which they are defended. If people believe in Protection, let them say they believe in Protection, as most hon. Members opposite do, and ask for Protection as a policy. But it is mean to pretend that you are doing something of a patriotic kind, or to defend your country, when what you are really doing is to try to get a tariff in order to increase your profits. I am informed that this is the highest duty of its kind levied in the whole of Europe. The right hon. Gentleman says the worst industry gets the highest protection, and the smaller the market the higher must the duties be. At the same time he says mass production will reduce the price. Those are arguments which show the muddled mentality so characteristic of all Protectionist doctrine. Let us understand exactly what the issue is. These duties were put on in 1921, defended by the present Prime Minister and supported by the House because we were then under the shadow of the Great War. People were willing to forgo their fiscal beliefs —prejudices if you like—in the interests of their country. The right hon. Gentleman thought fit to taunt the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer because he had not divided the House in the middle of the War. I do not think that was a very worthy taunt. But during the War these things were brought forward under the plea of the defence of our country. We suspected at the time that that was not a genuine plea. We suspected that it was an attempt to take advantage of the War mentality to change the fiscal system of the country, and that is what it is, and it was defended by Gentlemen opposite of the Tariff Reform party. It is unworthy to hide behind the plea of patriotism.
The right hon. Gentleman was very indignant because observations had been made on this side of the Committee suggesting that the industry of optical instrument manufacture is not conducted with the efficiency which entitles it to this special assistance. I think he described it as an improper argument to use in this House. The fault lies in the method which the Government have adopted. If the Government had appointed a Committee which had fairly investigated all the charges directed against this industry, the House would have had something to satisfy it, but the Committee refused to hear the evidence of those who had any criticisms against the industry, and in these circumstances it is legitimate and proper that we in this House, having had this evidence given to us, should utilise it in order to inquire what the answer of the Government may be. We are told by other manufacturing interests that the reasons for the difficulties of this industry are partly that they insist upon producing articles of luxury for which there is comparatively little demand, that they do not show any special aptitude to produce new models but insist on imitating foreign models, and that by the time the products, based on these foreign models, are placed or the market, they become obsolete. Those are the criticisms which we hear.
There is another class of criticism to which the right hon. Gentleman has made no reply. The success of the industry does not depend merely upon their manufacturing technique; it depends upon their finance and their business management. Did the Committee or has any committee made any investigations into the financial efficiency with which these industries are conducted? We have evidence on that point, because it happens that cases involving their financial administration have come before the Court and have been very seriously commented upon by the Court. I believe that the largest firm engaged in this industry is the Amalgamated Photographic Manufacturers. They applied to the Court to confirm a reduction of capital of nearly half a million pounds. The case came before Mr. Justice Eve, who said:
The President of the Board of Trade says that this industry has been a success since these Duties were imposed. The fact remains, from the evidence of the Committee, that in 1913 there were 2,000 persons employed, but in 1921 the number had fallen to 1,600, and now the number is only 1,200. I must ask the President of the Board of Trade to appreciate our point, that if these figures represent what is happening, it is not merely a question of the failure of the protective duty—that would be small— but it indicates that the purposes of national safety on which the Government based the case for this Duty are not being attained. That is why the statement made by the present Prime Minister five years ago is important. His statement meant that if at the end of five years it was found that the optical glass industry in spite of the Duty had not established itself, then in the national interest the protective method would have to be frankly abandoned, and the alternative method, which has been suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) and which would be in accordance with the principles of our party, ought to be explored.
A curious argument has been brought against me in reference to something that I have said. I insisted that the purpose of these duties is to give us some guarantee in time of war, and that these duties must stand or fall by that guarantee It was said from the other side of the House that that was a curious statement to be made by one who takes my point of view in regard to war, and it was pointed out that hon. Members opposite were not anxious for war. My point is that these duties were imposed upon the grounds of military necessity. The President of the Board of Trade is constantly referring to the needs of the fighting Services. It is by military necessity, therefore, that we ask that they should be judged. On that ground, they fail. Take the arc-lamp carbons. These carbons are made by only one firm in this country, and that firm is closing down its plant after five years of these duties. It is closing down its plant owing to causes which no duty can affect, namely, that the arc-lamp carbon is being swept out of the industrial market by the progress of electric light. No duty can be of any assistance there.
Why not?
It can be of some assistance, but my point is, what guarantee for the maintenance of the industry on a substantial scale can the duty give when that is the main cause of the disappearance of the arc lamp carbon?
What harm does it do?
The harm it does is that it is diverting the mind of the country from the alternative method that ought to be adopted. It is concentrating the mind of the country upon Protection instead of upon Government manufacture. On the question of arc lamp carbons, I understand that a very curious situation has arisen. One firm only produces arc lamp carbons, and that firm is also interested in the rival development of electric lighting, so that we have the curious position that in one shop in
that firm there is an industry which the Government encourages by this Protective duty, while another shop of the firm is engaged in the manufacture of a product whose interest it is that this particular arc lamp carbon industry should be destroyed.
indicated dissent.
Surely. The General Electric Company are producing arc lamp carbons and they are also interested in electric light. As far as the arc lamp carbon trade disappears, it is to their interest as producers of electric light, because they are selling the competing product. I am not dealing with the question of whether you can work a searchlight by electric light. The fact is that the firm upon whom we depend for the production of arc lamp carbons is interested in the rival product which can only flourish at the expense of the arc lamp carbon. That brings me to the conclusion that there ought to be a frank investigation into the alternative method of securing the arc lamp carbon in case necessity arises, and the alternative method which has been put forward with considerable authority both with regard to arc lamp carbons and optical instruments is that they should be manufactured under Government supervision and as part of a Government undertaking. The advantage of that would be that while we should be spending money we should, at any rate, know exactly what return we were receiving, and we should be sure that we were getting some return. That would give greater security than the existing method. The whole insistence upon this particular proposal by the Government leads us back to the fact that the Government are so wedded to Protection as the only possible method that they are actually sacrificing what may be the safety of the State to this particular political doctrine.
Question put, "That the words, 'As from the first day of,' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 139.
Division No.246.] AYES. [7.45 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-colonel Alexander, Sir Wm.(Glasgow, Centr'l) Atkinson, C. Agg-Gardner, Rt.Hon. sir James T. Apsley, Lord Balfou, Geoge (Hampstead) Albery, Irving James Ashley, Lt.-col.Rt.Hon.Wilfrid w. Balniel, Lord Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Astor, Viscountess Banks, Rreginald Mitchell Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Barnett, Major Sir Richard Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Oman, Sir Charles William C. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Penny, Frederick George Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Grace, John Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (Wth's'w, E) Perring, Sir William George Berry, Sir George Gretton, Culonel John Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Bethel, A. Grotrian, H. Brent Philipson, Mabel Betterton, Henry B. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Pielou, D. P. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Sklpton) Gunston, Captain D. W. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Preston, William Blades, Sir George Rowland Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Price, Major C. W. M. Blundell, F. N. Hammersley, S. S. Radford, E. A. Boothby, R. J. G. Hanbury, C. Raine, W. Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rees, Sir Beddoe Brass, Captain W. Harland, A. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Brassey, Sir Leonard Harrison, G. J. C. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hartington, Marquess of Remer, J. R. Briggs, J. Harold Haslam, Henry C. Remnant, Sir James Brittain, Sir Harry Hawke, John Anthony Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rice, Sir Frederick Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Bullock, Captain M. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hills, Major John Waller Ropner, Major L. Burman, J. B. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Burton, Colonel H. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Butler, Sir Geoffrey Holland, Sir Arthur Sandeman, A. Stewart Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Calne, Gordon Hall Hopkins, J. W. W. Sanderson, Sir Frank Casseis, J. D. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Savery, S. S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Shepperson, E. W. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hurd, Percy A. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Chapman, Sir S. Hurst, Gerald B. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Christie, J. A. Hutchison. G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Clarry, Reginald George Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sprot, Sir Alexander Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jacob, A. E. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jephcott, A. R. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Conway, Sir W. Martin Jones G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Couper, J. B. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Storry-Deans, R. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Kidd, J. (Llnllthgow) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry King, Captain Henry Douglas Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Strickland, Sir Gerald Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Lamb, J. Q. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Curzon, Captain Viscount Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Styles, Captain H. Walter Dalkeith, Earl of L'ster, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Dalziel, Sir Davison Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Loder, J. de V. Tinne, J. A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Davies, Dr. Vernon Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Davies, Sir Thomas (Clrencester) Lumley, L. R. Waddington, R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lynn, Sir R. J. Wallace, Captain D. E. Dawson, Sir Philip MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Dean, Arthur Wellesley McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Warrender, Sir Victor Dixey, A. C. Maclntyre, Ian Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert McLean, Major A. Watts, Dr. T. Eden, Captain Anthony McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Wells, S. R. Edmondson, Major A. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Ellis, R. G. Margesson, Captain D. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Everard, W. Lindsay Meller, R. J. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Meyer, Sir Frank Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Fermoy, Lord Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Fielden, E. B. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wise, Sir Fredric Finburgh, S. Morden, Col. W. Grant Withers, John James Ford, Sir P. J. Moreing, Captain A. H. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Forestler-Walker, Sir L Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Foster, Sir Harry S. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Foxcroft, Captain C. T Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Frece, Sir Walter de Neville, R. J. Wragg, Herbert Galbraith, J. F. w. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Ganzonl, Sir John Nuttall, Ellis TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Gates, Percy Oakley, T. Major Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fite, West) Attlee, Clement Richard Barnes, A Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Barr, J. Ammon, Charles George Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Batey, Joseph Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hardie, George D. Salter, Dr. Alfred Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Harris, Percy A. Scrymgeour, E. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scurr, John Briant, Frank Hayday, Arthur Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Broad, F. A. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bromfield, William Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Bromley, J. Hirst, G. H. Sitch, Charles H. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Buchanan, G. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, Rennie (Penlstone) Cape, Thomas Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snell, Harry Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Clowes, S. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Cluse, W. S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stamford, T. W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stephen, Campbell Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Connolly, M. Kenyon, Barnet Sutton, J. E. Cove, W. G. Kirkwood, D. Taylor, R. A. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lansbury, George Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Susan Thurtie, E. Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Tinker, John Joseph Davies, David (Montgomery) Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Varley, Frank B. Dennison, R. Livingstone, A. M. Viant, S. P. Duckworth, John Lowth, T. Wallhead, Richard C. Duncan, C. Lunn, William Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Dunnico, H. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Mackinder, W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) England, Colonel A. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Fenby, T. D. MacNeill-Weir, L. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Forrest, W. March, S. Welsh, J. C. Gibbins, Joseph Montague, Frederick Westwood, J. Gillett, George M. Morris, R. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Gosling, Harry Murnin, H. Whiteley, W. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Oliver, George Harold Wiggins, William Martin Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Owen, Major G. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Greenall, T. Palin, John Henry Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wllllams, T. (York, Don Valley) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ponsonby, Arthur Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Groves, T. Potts, John S. Wright, W. Grundy, T. W. Purcell, A. A. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Riley, Ben TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
I beg to move, in page 6, line 25, to leave out the words, "May, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, "and to insert instead thereof the words, "January, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven."
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?"
The Committee divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 137.
Division No. 247.] AYES. [7.54 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brass, Captain W. Clarry, Reginald George Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brassey, Sir Leonard Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Albery, Irving James Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Briggs, J. Harold Conway, Sir W. Martin Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Brittain, Sir Harry Couper, J. B. Apsley, Lord Brockiebank, C. E. R. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'v) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Astor, Viscountess Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Atkinson, C. Bullock, Captain M. Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Balnlel, Lord Burman, J. B. Curzon, Captain Viscount Banks, Reginald Mitchell Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Dalkeith, Earl of Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Burton, Colonel H. W. Dalziel, Sir Davison Barnett, Major Sir Richard Butler, Sir Geoffrey Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Caine, Gordon Hall Davies, Dr. Vernon Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cassels, J. D. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Berry, Sir George Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dawson, Sir Philip Bethel, A. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Sklpton) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Dixey, A. C. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Blades, Sir George Rowland Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Eden, Captain Anthony Blundell, F. N. Chapman, Sir S. Edmondson, Major A. J. Boothby, R. J. G. Christie, J. A. Ellis, R. G. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Everard, W. Lindsay Kidd, J. (Linllthgow) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Falle, Sir Bertram G. King, Captain Henry Douglas Ropner, Major L. Fermoy, Lord Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Fielden, E. B. Lamb, J. Q. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Finburgh, S. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ford, Sir P. J. Lister, Cunllfe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sandeman, A. Stewart Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Foster, Sir Harry S. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sanderson, Sir Frank Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Loder, J. de V. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Frece, Sir Walter de Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Savery, S. S. Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Ganzoni, Sir John Lumley, L. R. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Gates, Percy Lynn, Sir R. J. Shepperson, E. W. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne,'C.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Maclntyre, Ian Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Grace, John McLean, Major A. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Sprot, Sir Alexander Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Maltland, Sir Arthur D. steel- Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Grotrian, H. Brent Margesson, Captain D. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Steel, Major Samuel Strang Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Meller, R. J. Storry-Deans, R. Gunston, Captain D. W. Merriman, F. B. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Moyer, Sir Frank Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Strickland, Sir Gerald Hammersley, S. S. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hanbury, C. Morden, Col. W. Grant styles, Captain H. Walter Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moreing, Captain A. H. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraier Harland, A. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Harrison, G. J. C. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Tlnne, J. A. Hartington, Marquess of Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Haslam, Henry C. Neville, R. J. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hawke, John Anthony Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Waddington, R. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nuttall, Ellis Wallace, Captain D. E. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Oakley, T. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Warrender, Sir Victor Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Hills, Major John Waller Penny, Frederick George Watts, Dr. T. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wells, S. R. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Perring, Sir William George Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Holland, Sir Arthur Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Philipson, Mabel Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Hopkins, J. W. W. Pielou, D. P. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Preston, William Wise, Sir Fredric Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Price, Major C. W. M. Withers, John James Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Radford, E. A. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Raine, W. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Hurd, Percy A. Rees, Sir Beddoe Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Hurst, Gerald B. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Remer, J. R. Wragg, Herbert Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Remnant, Sir James Jacob, A. E. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. TELLERS FOR THE AVES .—.— Jephcott, A. R. Rice, Sir Frederick Major Cope and Mr. F. C.Thomson. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Compton, Joseph Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Connolly, M. Griffiths, T (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ammon, Charles George Cove, W. G. Groves, T. Attlee, Clement Richard Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Grundy, T. W. Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Crawfurd, H. E. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Norman ton) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Dalton, Hugh Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Barnes, A. Davies, David (Montgomery) Hardie, George D. Barr, J. Day, Colonel Harry Harris, Percy A. Batey, Joseph Dennison, R. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Beckett, John (Gateshead) Duckworth, John Hayday, Arthur Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Duncan, C. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dunnico, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Briant, Frank Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hirst, G. H. Broad, F. A. England, Colonel A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Bromfield, William Fenby, T. D. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Bromley, J. Forrest, W. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gibbins, Joseph Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Buchanan, G. Gillett, George M. John, William (Rhondda, West) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Gosling, Harry Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Cape, Thomas Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Charleton, H. C. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Cluse, W. S. Greenall, T. Kelly, W. T. Clynes, Right Hon. John R. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Kennedy, T. Kenyon, Barnet Riley, Ben Vlant, S. P. Kirkwood, D. Salter, Dr. Alfred Walihead, Richard C. Lansbury, George Scrymgeour, E. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Lawrence, Susan Scurr, John Warne, G. H. Lawson, John James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Lee, F. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Lindley, F. W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbur) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Lowth, T. Sitch, Charles H. Weish, J. C Lunn, William Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Westwood, J. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Mackinder, W. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Whiteley, W. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Snell, Harry Wiggins, William Martin MacNeill-Weir, L. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wilkinson, Ellen C. March, S. Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Montague, Frederick Stamford, T. W. Williams, David (Swansea, E) Murnin, H. Stephen, Campbell Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Oliver, George Harold Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Owen, Major G. Sutton, J. E. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Palin, John Henry Taylor, R. A. Wright, W. Paling, W. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thurtle, E. Potts, John S. Tinker, John Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Purcell, A. A. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Mr. Morris and Mr. Mackenzie Livingstone. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Varley, Frank B.
I beg to move, in page 6, line 29, to leave out the word "one-half, "and to insert instead thereof the word "one-quarter."
Question put, "That the word 'one-half stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 134.
Division No. 248.] AYES. [8.4 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Clarry, Reginald George Gunston, Captain D. W. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Albery, Irving James Cofox, Major Wm. Phillips Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Conway, Sir W. Martin Hammersley, S. S. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Couper, J. B. Hanbury, C. Apsley, Lord Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Harland, A. Astor, Viscountess Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Harrison, G. J. C. Atkinson, C. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Llndsey, Gainsbro) Hartington, Marquess of Balfour, George (Hampstead) Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Haslam, Henry C. Balniel, Lord Curzon, Captain Viscount Hawke, John Anthony Banks, Reginald Mitchell Dalkeith, Earl of Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Dalziel, Sir Davison Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Barnett, Major Sir R. Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Davies, Dr. Vernon Hills, Major John Walter Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebons) Berry, Sir George Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Bethel, A. Dawson, Sir Philip Holland, Sir Arthur Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Dixey, A. C. Hopkins, J. W. W. Blades, Sir George Rowland Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Blundell, F. N. Eden, Captain Anthony Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Brass, Captain W. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hudson, Capt. A. U.M.(Hackney, N.) Brassey, Sir Leonard Ellis, R. G. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Briggs, J. Harold Everard, W. Lindsay Hurd, Percy A. Brittain, Sir Harry Falle, Sir Bertram G. Hurst, Gerald B. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Fermoy, Lord Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl'S) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y) Fielden, E. B. Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Bullock, Captain M. Finburgh, S. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Ford, Sir P. J. Jacob, A. E. Burman, J. B. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Jephcott, A. R. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Foster, Sir Harry S. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Burton, Colonel H. W. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Butler, Sir Geoffrey Frece, Sir Walter de Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gaibraith, J. F. W. King, Captain Henry Douglas Caine, Gordon Hall Ganzoni, Sir John Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Cassels, J. D. Gates, Percy Lamb, J. Q. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grace, John Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Loder, J. de V. Chapman, Sir S. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Chilcott, Sir Warden Grotrian, H. Brent Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman. Christie, J. A. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F.E. (Bristol, N.) Lumley, L. R. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lynn, Sir R. J. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Rees, Sir Beddoe Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Styles, Captain H. Walter Maclntyre, Ian Reid, D. D. (County Down) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser McLean, Major A. Remer, J. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Remnant, Sir James Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Margesson, Captain D. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Tinne, J. A. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Rice, Sir Frederick Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Meller, R. J. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Waddington, R. Merriman, F. B. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Wallace, Captain D. E. Meyer, Sir Frank Ropner, Major L. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Warrender, Sir Victor Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Morden, Col. W. Grant Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Watts, Dr. T. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sandeman, A. Stewart Wells, S. R. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arther Clive Sanders, Sir Robert A. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Sanderson, Sir Frank Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Neville, R. J. Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Savery, S. S. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Nuttall, Ellis Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Oakley, T. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Shepperson, E. W. Wise, Sir Fredric Penny, Frederick George Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.) Withers, John James Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sprot, Sir Alexander Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Phillpson, Mabel Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Pielou, D. P. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Steel, Major Samuel Strang Wragg, Herbert Preston, William Storry-Deans, R. Price, Major C. W. M. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Radford, E. A. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Major Cope and Captain Bowyer. Raine, W. Strickland, Sir Gerald
I beg to move, in page 6, line 31, to leave out the words "one shilling," and to insert instead thereof the word "threepence."
Question put, "That the words 'one shilling' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 135.
Division No. 249.] AYES. [8.13 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Edmondson, Major A. J. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Ellis, R. G. Macintyre, Ian Albery, Irving James Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith McLean, Major A. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Everard, W. Lindsay McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Margesson, Captain D. Apsley, Lord Fermoy, Lord Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wllfrid W. Fielden, E. B. Meller, R. J. Astor, Viscountess Finburgh, S. Merriman, F. B. Atkinson, C. Ford, Sir P. J. Meyer, Sir Frank Balfour, George (Hampstead) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Balniel, Lord Foster, Sir Harry S. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Banks, Reginald Mitchell Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Morden, Col. W. Grant Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Frece, Sir Walter de Moreing, Captain A. H. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Galbraith, J. F. W. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Ganzonl, Sir John Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Beckett, sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Gates, Percy Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Neville, R. J. Benn, sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Glbbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Berry, Sir George Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Nuttall, Ellis Bethel, A. Grace, John Oakley, T. Betterton, Henry B. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Grotrian, H. Brent Penny, Frederick George Blades, Sir George Rowland Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Blundell, F. N. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Brass, Captain W. Gunston, Captain D. W. Perring, Sir William George Brassey, Sir Leonard Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pete, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Philipson, Mabel Briggs, J. Harold Hammersley, S. S. Plelou, D. P. Brittain, Sir Harry Hanbury, C. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Preston, William Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harland, A. Price, Major C. W. M. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harrison, G. J. C. Radlord, E. A. Bullock, Captain M Hartington, Marquess of Raine, W. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Haslam, Henry C. Rees, Sir Beddoe Burman, J. B. Hawke, John Anthony Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Burton, Colonel H. W. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Remer, J. R. Butler, Sir Geoffrey Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Remnant, Sir James Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hennessy Major J. R. G. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Calne, Gordon Hall Hills, Major John Walter Rice, Sir Frederick Casseis, J. D. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Holland Sir Arthur Ropner, Major L. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hopkins, J. W. W. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Chapman, Sir S. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Chilcott, Sir Warden Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Sandeman, A. Stewart Christie, J. A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whlteh'n) Sanderson, Sir Frank Clarry, Reginald George Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Savery, S. S. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hurd, Percy A. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hurst, Gerald B. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Conway, Sir W. Martin Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Shepperson, E. W. Cope, Major William Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Couper, J. B. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Jacob, A. E. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Jephcott, A. R. Sprot, Sir Alexander Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Undsey, Cainsbro) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Steel, Major Samuel Strang Dalkeith, Earl of King, Captain Henry Douglas Storry-Deans, R. Dalziel, Sir Davison Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Lamb, J. Q. Streatfelld, Captain S. R. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Strickland, Sir Gerald Davies, Dr. Vernon Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Styles, Captain H. Walter Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Loder, J. de V. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Dawson, Sir Philip Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thomson, F. C (Aberdeen, South) Dixey, A. C. Lumley, L. R. Tinne, J. A. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H. Lynn, Sir Robert J. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Eden, Captain Anthony MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Salter, Dr. Alfred Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Scrymgeour, E. Ammon, Charles George Groves, T. Scurr, John Attlee, Clement Richard Grundy, T. W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barnes, A. Hardle, George D. Sitch, Charles H. Barr, J. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotharhithe) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Lelth) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Snell, Harry Briant, Frank Hirst, G. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Broad, F. A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bromfield, William Hore-Belisha, Leslie Stamford, T. W. Bromley, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stephen, Campbell Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jenkins,' W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Buchanan, G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sutton, J. E. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Taylor, R. A. Cape, Thomas Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Charleton, H. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphllly) Thurtle, E. Clowes, S. Kelly, W. T. Tinker, John Joseph Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kirkwood, D. Varley, Frank B. Compton, Joseph Lansbury, George Viant, S. P. Connolly, M. Lawrence, Susan Wallhead, Richard C. Cove, W. G. Lawson, John James Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lee, F. Warne, G. H. Crawfurd, H. E. Llndley, F. W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Dalton, Hugh Lowth, T. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Davies, David (Montgomery) Lunn, William Webb, Rt. Hon Sidney Day, Colonel Harry MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Welsh, J. C. Duckworth, John Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J. Duncan, C. MacNeill-Weir, L. Wheatley, Rt. Hon J. Dunnico, H. March, S. Whiteley, W. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Montague, Frederick Wilkinson, Ellen C. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Fenby, T. D. Oliver, George Harold Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Forrest, W. Owen, Major G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gibbins, Joseph Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Gillett, George M. Paling, W. Wright, W. Gosling, Harry Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Potts, John S. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Greenall, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. MacKenzie Livingstone and Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Riley, Ben Mr. Morris.
Waddington, R. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Wallace, Captain D. E. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfle'ld) Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Warrender, Sir Victor Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wragg, Herbert Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Watts, Dr. T. Wise, Sir Fredric TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Wells, S. R. Withers, John James Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scrymgeour, E. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hardle, George D. Scurr, John Ammon, Charles George Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Attlee, Clement Richard Hayday, Arthur Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Barnes, A. Hirst, G. H. Sitch, Charles H. Barr, J. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) Batey, Joseph Hore-BeMsha, Leslie Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snell, Harry Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Bromfield, William Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bromley, J. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stamford, T. W. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stephen, Campbell Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E. Cape, Thomas Kirkwood, D. Taylor, R. A. Charleton, H. C. Lansbury, George Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Clowes, S. Lawrence, Susan Thurtle, E. Cluse, W. S. Lawson, John James Tinker, John Joseph Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, F. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Compton, Joseph Lindley, F. W. Varley, Frank B. Connolly, M. Livingstone, A. M. Vlant, S. P. Cove, W. G. Lowth, T. Wallhead, Richard C. Crawfurd, H. E. Lunn, William Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Dalton, Hugh MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Warne, G. H. Davies, David (Montgomery) Mackinder, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Day, Colonel Harry Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Dennison, R. MacNeill-Weir, L. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Duncan, C. March, S. Welsh, J. C. Dunnico, H. Montague, Frederick Westwood, J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morris, R. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Murnin, H. Whiteley, W. Gibbins, Joseph Oliver, George Harold Wiggins, William Martin Gillett, George M. Owen, Major G. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Gosling, Harry Palin, John Henry Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Graham, D. M. (Lanark. Hamilton) Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Parkinson, John Allen (wigan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanetly) Greenail, T. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Potts, John S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Purcell, A. A. Wright, W. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Groves, T. Rlley, Ben Grundy, T. W. Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton) Salter, Dr. Alfred Mr. Briant and Mr. Fenby.
Before the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) moves the next Amendment, I would say that it would be more convenient to discuss the whole of the Schedule upon this first Amendment, and of course, hon. Members interested in any items of it will speak on this Amendment and divide on the various paragraphs.
I beg to move, in page 6, line 34, to leave out Sub-section (3).
The Sub-section proposes to add certain specific articles to those already in Part I of Safeguarding of Industries Act. The first class of article that it is proposed to add is the component parts of such optical instruments as are chargeable to duty under Section I of the said Act. The second are the component parts of similar scientific instruments; the third and fourth relate to carbon-electrodes and certain chemicals; and, finally, component parts of optical instruments are to be charged a duty of 50 per cent. instead of 33⅓ per cent. This proposal really reduces the whole of this Safeguarding of Industries scheme to absurdity. The policy embodied in the Act starts with the idea of protecting the country, by enabling expensive lenses to be safeguarded and to be produced in this country. From dealing with important lenses of that kind, it proceeds to extend the principle to the expensive lenses of cameras. From expensive lenses of cameras it goes to the cheap little lenses of cheap cameras. From the cheap little lenses it goes to the cameras themselves, and in this Sub-section it goes from the cameras to the component parts of cameras. Under this Sub-section it is proposed to tax the boxes of cameras, the leather cases of the box, the covers of the box, the straps by which the camera is carried, and the buckles on those straps. We get down to something which reminds me of a riddle which I used to be asked when I was a boy: "What is perfect with a head and perfect without a head, perfect with a tail and perfect without a tail, and perfect with either or neither or both?" and the answer was "A wig." That, of course, reduces the thing to the ridiculous, but this Subsection does reduce the whole of this proposal to the ridiculous whether applied to cameras or opera glasses.
The idea that you are not merely going to tax the whole of the camera or the whole of the opera glasses as though they were lenses, but the camera or the part of the camera though it has not a lens at all, and to tax everything that goes to make up the opera glass though it has not the essential part, which is the lens, seems to reduce the whole procedure to absurdity. No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary may say that this is necessary. It may be argued by the Government that when you come to the question of taxing the lens of the camera, it is impossible to get the lens out of the camera or to decide precisely what the value of the lens of the camera is, and, therefore, that you must tax the whole camera. It is quite possible for the Government to argue that since you must tax the whole camera when it comes in as a whole, you cannot allow this little bit to come in free and another little bit to come in free so that the camera could be assembled in this country. But that line of argument is not a justification for this Sub-section. It merely shows that when you propose to put on protective duties of this kind you cannot go further without coming down to what is ultimately ridiculous. Feeling that this Sub-section merely shows up the absurdity of the whole protective principle, I move its deletion.
In supporting the Amendment I confine myself more particularly to the first paragraph of the Sub-section which it is proposed to omit. The question of lenses, parts of cameras, scientific instruments, and so forth, has been evaded to some extent in the previous discussions. I wish to show, in connection with this Sub-section, that the aim which the Government seem to have in mind will in the long run be found to have no application whatever to the circumstances with which they pretend to be dealing. The production of lenses on a large scale in recent years was not caused by the fact that someone was able to protect the lens industry in some particular country, but was caused by the circumstances of the War and by the extra demand which the desire of Governments to search out their enemies caused to be made for lenses of different types. If Governments were only able to use lenses in these days for the solution of their problems, there might be a return to an extensive demand for these articles, but at the present time there is a considerable slump in the demand for lenses of all kinds. It is not likely, even with very considerable scientific development and the development of our educational institutions and of medical research, and so on, that in the years to come there can be any return to the inordinate demand for this commodity which the War produced. In these circumstances one would ask what the Government expects to accomplish by putting on a duty of the sort to which my hon. Friend has just referred?
In the case of binocular glasses and cameras, it is fair to describe that sort of commodity as one which is used for luxury purposes. With certain few exceptions these are articles of luxury and cameras or field glasses will in the long run be bought very largely whether they are to be taxed at 33⅓ per cent. on the lens or not. All that will happen will be a certain attempt to collect a duty in the form of a luxury tax from a few individuals and, in the long run, to do injury to the general trade in which these commodities are being produced. In any case, whatever tax be placed upon such lenses as are produced by German firms like Goerz and Zeiss, these lenses will be bought. Their quality is well established. You may increase the tax upon them, but people who desire the luxury article, to which I have referred, will continue to insist upon getting that article and, from the point of view of protecting any English production of lenses, the Government will entirely fail.
The same remark applies to the problem of cameras generally. It is interesting that the Government in connection with its proposals for the taxation of lenses, hopes to develop a stage further its ideas on Imperial Preference. It will allow, for example, the lenses of cameras to come in from Canada, without any guarantee that the lenses concerned are produced by Empire labour. There will be imported into this country on a large scale, as indeed was proved in connection with the Kodak camera firm, American-produced lenses and other parts. I believe in connection with this matter the Committee whose recommendations the Government pretend to follow suggest there should be a guarantee that in the production of the lens or the article in which the lens is included 75 per cent. of the labour used should be actually Empire labour. I ask the representative of the Government whether there has been any attempt to carry out that part of the Committee's recommendation. Is it not the case that they have wantonly neglected the cardinal part of the proposals of the Committee on whose recommendations they pretend to base their case? The Government seem only to have been concerned in this matter, as in most matters with which they deal, to carry out their pre-conceived notions irrespective of the facts of the case.
Turning to another side of this question of the production of lenses, I would remind the hon. Gentleman who will, I hope, speak for the Government, that it is an extremely important side of our industrial development that those concerned with it should have maximum opportunities for scientific research, and the use of lenses in connection with various types of scientific instruments, used, not only in connection with biological research, but in the electrical and engineering trades, makes it necessary that these instruments should be got at the cheapest possible rate. To what extent do the Government expect to be assisting research by wantonly placing a tax upon lenses like the Zeiss and the Goerz lenses, which are well-known to be the only effective instruments for, at any rate, the finer type of microscopic work? I submit that the Government will fail to help the particular industry that it pretends to be helping, that it will definitely hinder scientific research as a whole, and that it is shackling and not helping industry, and I submit that if the Government were wise, they would make efforts to find an application of their protective theories to some more favourable ground than the one they have chosen in this particular instance. I hope the Government may yet reconsider this proposal, and I support the Amendment.
Hon. Members opposite are supporting a very wide Amendment, but apparently they can only think in terms of cheap photographic cameras. In case there should be any misunderstanding, let me say that cameras are at present dutiable as a whole. The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) went from the lens to the box, to the leather cover of the box, to the strap that holds the box, and to the cover that goes over the whole box, and I was surprised he did not follow on to the person who presses the button. But, as I say, cameras are taxable as a whole, and we are now proposing to tax the component parts in order to avoid the danger that has made itself apparent by permitting the free entry of separate consignments of parts of instruments which really should be taxed as instruments themselves, and that is the whole object of this Sub-section. The term "optical instruments" comprises the lens, the prism, the reflector, and the various important parts of optical instruments. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members opposite laugh, but surely the lens, the reflector and the prism are not an unreasonable or unimportant section of the various optical parts of an optical instrument.
A supply of optical glass and instruments of the first quality is essential to the prosecution of research in many very important branches of science, and I would point out that these things on which we are trying to put a duty play a very important part in astronomy, physics, chemistry, metallurgy, biology, botany, bacteriology and so forth, so that the field is rather wider than has been suggested in the speeches of hon. Members opposite, and I beg them to treat this in a rather more serious way than by speaking of it lightly as the taxing of comparatively unimportant parts of this very great optical industry. I can understand hon. Members opposite objecting to many of our schemes for taxing this, that and the other, or, if 1 cannot understand them, there is at any rate more reason for their objecting to some of them than to this, because in this case, although the optical industry does show a very serious fall in employment, there are reasons which clearly account for that fall.
In the first place, there is the immense accumulation of war surplus of optical instruments, and that has not yet been consumed in every belligerent country. That has caused an immense world reduction in the output of optical instruments and glass, and so the development of our optical production has generally been on a lessening scale in the years during which the 1921 Act has been in operation, but from our examination of this subject we find that the duty which has been imposed has been of such value to this trade that it has actually saved it, in our opinion, from extinction. If that be so, it is not an unreasonable thing for us to say that, following the words of the President of the Board of Trade, the present Prime Minister, in 1921, which have been quoted this afternoon so often, we feel that these industries under the circumstances of stress under which they have been labouring, have founded their roots in this country, and we believe that the duty which we are trying to impose will help to stimulate and develop them, and that the British manufacturer of optical instruments will be able to hold his own in competition with other countries. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about unemployment?"] We are employing fewer in this industry to-day than pre-War because the immense stimulus of war has produced such an overwhelming surplus of optical instruments that the demand for new production has fallen.
That might have been a good argument for 1919, but, as has been pointed out, there has been a serious decrease of productian since 1921. Is it not fair to assume that a very great proportion of the War surplus should have been consumed, and that there would have been an increasing demand for new manufacture?
But they are yet selling War surplus, and especially of a high quality—of high-priced qualities. The War surplus is declining to-day and we are beginning to see the effect—and throughout this Report hon. Members may note it—we are beginning to see the effect of the decline in the disposal of War surplus, and that is why we are so strong in urging that it is desirable that we should continue the assistance that has been given to the industry.
rose —
Perhaps the hon. Member will listen to what I am about to say for a moment. Another thing is this: that we must remember that we cannot prosecute this high-class industry from a successful commercial point of view merely, because there is the higher scientific and research side to consider. Along with these, you must be able to develop the more popular side of the industry. This duty is to assist that. What is the secret of the success of our competitors in many of these things? It is that they are able to send over to this country these popular lines in the various industries, and to induce the British public to buy at cheap prices. It is very necessary in these industries that we should enable them to develop that side of their industry. Therefore, I put forward this matter in the strongest possible way, not only on the ground that it is of the greatest importance from the scientific and the research points of view, but from the trade point of view of the people who are occupied in the industry. We have, I say, reason to believe from the examination we have made that the industry is on the verge of a very much more prosperous condition. Again I say, not a single argument from the opposite side has shown me that safeguarding has increased the price of one single item. In every case prices have tended to be reduced—in most cases they have been. In every case we have enlarged our range and improved our quality. Therefore it is that I put forward our case with some vigour.
We are very much indebted to the hon. Gentleman the Par- liamentary Secretary for the very interesting and illuminating reply that he has given us in reply to the speech made by my right hon. Friend, and by the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence). While we always receive the very greatest possible courtesy from the Parliamentary Secretary, while we always feel ourselves under the spell of his great personal charm, that does not make us hesitate to say what is exactly in our minds in respect to the policy of the Government. In spite of all the hon. Gentleman has said, I feel compelled to draw attention in the strongest possible terms to a paragraph in the Report to which I want to direct particular attention. I refer to page 43, paragraph 164, If hon. Members will turn up the page—but perhaps I had better read the paragraph in order to show just what the Report says:
First of all, can we have the amount of production? Then might we have the percentage of that production that is absorbed by the various countries, including the percentage manufactured in this country? If we get these particulars, we shall be able to form some estimate as to the justification for the imposition of this tax. If these things come from America, it would be contrary to the spirit of the statement of the Prime Minister, and other responsible spokesmen of the Government, in relation to their policy of safeguarding, and especially if the tax is to be imposed on the products of a country where wages notoriously are higher than in this country! If the quantity produced here is sufficient to equip the Navy and our other military forces in case of necessity, it seems to be altogether unreasonable to ask Parliament to pass this legislation when it is quite obvious that the Government have received no mandate from the people to do so. Looking back at the record of the Government in relation to other matters, I can see clearly that they do not regard themselves as being bound either by the pledges they made at the General Election, or by the fact that they failed to keep a mandate from the electors for this vitally important change.
I understood that one of the substantial reasons of this legislation was the fact that the currencies of the countries from which many of these goods came were seriously depreciated owing to a number of temporary causes. With all the many difficulties that arose out of the follies of the statesmen of Europe in drawing up the so-called Peace Treaty of Versailles, it may be that a few years ago a reasonable case could be made out for temporary legislation to guard against these currency difficulties; but the Government now propose to legislate not merely for five years, which was their pledge when the legislation was introduced—we had it from the present Prime Minister that five years was sufficiently long for an industry to demonstrate whether or not such legislation would benefit it—but to include in the schedule items which were not previously mentioned, and to continue the duties for another 10 years, that is, for 15 years as against the original five years. I can well understand that the Government should regard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade as the most suitable representative to place such a proposal before Parliament. If he will forgive me for saying so, I have sometimes admired his amazing political audacity, but for him to come forward with a proposal of this kind, without giving us any explanation is, in my opinion, not treating the Opposition with the attention to which they are entitled, nor treating this Committee with the respect to which it is accustomed when legislation of this importance is before it. I trust, therefore, that a detailed explanation will be given by the hon. Member of the points to which I have drawn attention.
I would like to press the point which has been put by my hon. Friend. Under this procedure we are dealing in one general discussion with a number of separate Amendments, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will really give us some information on these matters. In his initial speech he did not make any reference to the amorphous carbon electrode. I have been reading with care the passage concerning it which appears in the Report, and I have also received further information which I should like to put to him to see whether he can corroborate it or give us some other version. For the first time it is proposed to bring these amorphous carbon electrodes under tax. On page 43 of the Report there is a passage which I think is a little misleading. It says:
that is, the output of these electrodes. I am informed that there is only one considerable factory in the whole country where these electrodes are now being made. I would like to know whether that is so, and no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us later. The question whether British output is to continue or not practically boils itself down to the question whether this particular factory will continue or not. My information is that a group of Sheffield steel manufacturers, including Messrs. John Brown, Hadfields Limited, Vickers, and others own and control between them this one factory, and that attempts have been made there to produce amorphous carbon electrodes of a quality equal to those which can be imported from abroad. I am also informed that the attempt has been so unsuccessful that these firms themselves do not, except to a very limited extent, buy the product of this factory which they themselves control. I am told they have to go abroad to get electrodes which will stand the teriffic heat to which they are subjected during these steel-making processes.
Of course the hon. Gentleman is a much higher authority on the technical side of this matter than I can pretend to be. I have merely received my information from people claiming to speak with authority and knowledge. What they assert is that with the high temperatures produced in these modern steel making processes what is required is an electrode which shall burn uniformly, and without an ash deposit, and which shall not fall into the crucible and cause the steel which is being smelted to be less pure and reliable than it would otherwise be with a uniformly-burning electrode. I am also informed that the electrodes produced by this factory in Sheffield do not conform to that requirement, and are definitely inferior, there being at all times a tendency for parts of them to fall into the crucible. If that is so, it is a very serious thing from the point of view of the efficiency of our steel-making plant in this country. If these big manufacturers, whose interest it would be to buy from the factory which they themselves control, cannot trust the quality of the product of that factory, if in spite of all the resources which have been lavished on it by these wealthy and considerable firms that factory cannot bring their electrodes up to standard, then surely we are endangering the whole basis of our steel production in forcing firms to dispense with the electrodes which they have previously imported from abroad and to use almost exclusively these products which are not up to standard. I do not claim any technical knowledge of the matter such as the hon. Gentleman possesses, but I have received these representations from persons who do claim that knowledge, and I think it is due to the Committee to have a perfectly clear statement in reply to these technical objections which I have done my best, in my untutored way, to submit to the hon. Gentleman.
I am reluctant to intrude between the Parliamentary Secretary and the request made to him for a reply to the weighty arguments which have been submitted, but I wish to call attention to the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade to the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), who moved the Amendment. If I rightly understood that reply, he complained that we had not considered seriously the issue involved in regard to optical instruments and optical elements, and that we were disposed to treat these proposals as being frivolous and puny in character. The Parliamentary Secretary argued that there was a serious side to them, concerned not merely with cheap cameras, but with valuable and important scientific instruments. I submit that the Parliamentary Secretary in that argument mutually contradicts himself both in regard to the argument used for the protection of the better class goods and the argument which he used later in trying to show the importance of affording protection to the cheaper kind of goods. May I draw the attention of the Committee to a paragraph dealing with our pre-War capacity as makers of optical instruments before the safeguarding proposals became law. Paragraph 16 of the Report of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade says:
"The pre-War British industry, though small, was efficient, and in respect of some articles, such as range-finders, it occupied the premier world position. British photographic lenses held a high place in comparison with those of the best German makers, the best astronomical telescope were unsurpassed by the corresponding foreign makes, and in the manufacture of special instruments required for particular scientific researches there existed a British firm far ahead of any foreign competitor."
If there be any force in the argument used by the Parliamentary Secretary, it has been that the British makers were not in the position and had not the experience and skill to turn out the kind of goods with which they had to compete, whereas the Report says that, in reference to this class of goods, the British makers were unsurpassed. Therefore, I submit, there is no case for the bolstering up of this industry, which has always been perfectly competent to deal with competition. With regard to the cheaper kind of cameras and optical instruments, the Parliamentary Secretary said it was rather important to encourage the manufacture of cheap cameras as a kind of national industry. Does the hon. Gentleman seek to justify a request that young boys and girls, and the public who want to have the opportunity of using these small cheap cameras, should have to pay 50 per cent. more for them than they need to pay? That is the only conclusion to which I can come from the arguments which have been used in favour of these proposals. This Clause seeks to obtain power now to extend the duty on all sorts of optical instruments from 33⅓ to 50 per cent. Therefore, it is obvious that a boy or girl desiring to purchase a camera of a foreign make must pay 50 per cent. more for it than they would have to pay without the duty. Therefore, it is clearly obvious that the British maker can charge that extra amount for his camera. May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether such things as the lenses in a cheap toy magic lantern will come under these proposals? I understand that they will, and that, as a matter of fact, the importation of all kinds of cheap optical instruments will come under these provisions. I submit that that is a policy not even worthy of the Conservative party.
There is one thing which always follows attempts to safeguard any industry and that is that those who think they are doing a good thing for the nation by safeguarding do not see that in every one of those cases they have retarded the production of those articles they have protected, and they have lowered the standard and efficiency of that particular industry. On the general question of safeguarding, it is quite safe to say that even in the case of the cheap camera which has been referred to you have made a blunder from which it is going to take you a long time to recover. Those who have had to do with glass from 1914 up to 1922 know all about the struggle through which this country has passed. I can remember during the War the case of an ordinary chemist's graduated measuring glass; we never found one which we could depend upon to give the exact measure and we had to weigh the measure in order to test its accuracy.
In order to get away from the slipshod inaccuracy which seems to apply to British people in these technical matters, we have had to import goods from countries which have been dealing with these things scientifically for generations, and in the case of measuring glasses and thermometers, during the War period there was no chance of getting a British product which in any way compared favourably with those from foreign countries which had been long established in the manufacture of these things. The science of measurement is increasing in this country because industrial people with any intelligence at all know that if any progress is going to be made in industry it all has its basis on scientific measurement. Unless a business man has a scientific measurement to rely upon, at the end of the year he cannot tell whether he has made any progress during the year. Therefore if we want to encourage scientific measurement we should not have a Government so stupid as to put anything in the way of the encouragement of the manufacture of all kinds of measuring instruments.
The development of the manufacture of the parts of scientific instruments is a question that has not been dealt with thoroughly from the Government side. They never seem to understand that, if you want certain high-class instruments with either optical or metal parts, you cannot get them complete in this country, because, as I have said in reference to other things, there is not the experience or the craft in the hands and minds of the workers to carry out the work. Therefore, every one of these movements makes for the retardation of an industry that would otherwise develop. The idea that industry can be developed by putting difficulties in the way clearly belongs to the logic of the Tory party. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us a tremendous stretch of words, from astronomy down to bacteriology, but he did not tell us a single thing about the demand for any of the articles referred to in the Clause we are now discussing. If he had any knowledge at all of chemistry, he would have known that the statement he was making was not quite correct. I always feel, in dealing with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, that it is like shooting hens in a hen-roost. He said that the secret of success in these industries was in being able to get these things protected, but he must remember that the business men on his own benches tell him that the secret of success is supplying the thing that people want, which is quite a different matter. The experience of manufacturers in this country, even in regard to the use of exact measuring instruments, is so small that you cannot get an opinion even from the glorious members of the Tory party. They are nearly all engaged in some kind of big industry, but they never give the House or the nation the benefit of their experience, perhaps because their only experience is in connection with profit-gathering.
Now we come to paragraph (iv). The Parliamentary Secretary made no mention of what that paragraph contains. Perhaps he has no acquaintance with it at all. Some day, when he becomes older than he is, he will be thinking of consulting his doctor in order to revive a debilitated frame, and then he will find that his doctor will say: "My friend, what you want is a dose of molybdenum." The remarkable thing about these rare elements is that they are put into a Bill without the slightest explanation to enlighten the ordinary Member as to why they are there and what they are for. It would be far better for the Government to take the nation into their confidence, and say why it is necessary to have
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted; and 40 Members being present —
Continuing on the question of these metals, what the Government, and especially the Board of Trade section of it, do not seem to understand, is that when they seek to put a tax upon rare elements of this kind, especially when they are used in small quantities, the articles produced from them have such a small market that what they think they get on the metals is taken away on the price of the ores. They say they do not want to include ores or minerals of molybdenum or vanadium. Why do they say that? They think that by not including them they are going to induce people to become receivers of raw material and to manufacture from it British products. That is not the result. What happens is that, while the tax prevents any advantage being taken of the products from abroad, when you want the raw materials the people who can give them to you simply put on to the ore the tax which you put on to the finished article, and you do not get anything by the change at all, but you do prevent the natural development of the industry, because, the cheaper these rare metals can be got into this country, the greater the use made of them is going to be, and, the greater the use made of them, the greater will be the return, because it is generally the countries sending the raw materials that buy the finished products which we can give them.
I have been reading up about research in industry, which is closely connected with paragraphs (ii), (iii) and (iv). So far as amorphous carbon is concerned, it is a question of the heat that it will stand and the difficulty that there is in this country of finding any quantities of amorphous carbon that will stand the necessary heat. It has to be understood that before you can have a carbon to stand, say, 1,000 degrees of heat, it must, of itself, be formed and consolidated in a greater heat, because if you use a carbon which has only been kneaded or consolidated at 1,000 and try to run 1,200 in that, it deforms. That is what happens in this country. You find that companies are formed and money put up for some experiments in a laboratory, but there is great difference between what you do in a laboratory and when you go to the factory and deal with it in the mass. It is essential in this House to get down to details, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade no doubt will be able to follow me very closely. If research into industry had been carried on in a proper way, it would have placed us to-day in a different position from that of having to defend our ignorance by putting tariffs on things we cannot make ourselves.
It is undignified that other countries can say, "The British should make this themselves, but if we make it, they put a tax on." If we have men with the real feeling, and the spirit of building up the industry of the British nation, if we had men with that real concentration and love for it which is real industry, this real living interest down to the nearest detail, then this nation would be the greatest nation in the world. We have the finest chemists in the world, the best engineers, the best equipped laboratories, the brains behind all these things, and we are only kept back by the stupidity of the present Tory Government. What I am dealing with is the really serious business of the reorganization of industry which these Clauses tend to prevent. Every one of those paragraphs speaks volumes against really getting down to it. Why do people claim as owners of factories do, to be captains of industry? Why, when a man has the title of "captain" he is supposed to know something. In modern industry the man who is supposed to be a captain does not know as much as the labourer. I have been at consultations where things were made quite plain by the chemist and the engineer of the firm, and yet the man who is supposed to be a captain of industry did not understand it. And because he did not understand it it was of no use. Ignorance is no excuse for a backward state in trade.
The hon. Member is making the discussion a good deal wider than it should be.
I do not know how it could be curtailed. The width of the subject contained in paragraphs (ii), (iii) and (iv) is such that it embraces the world. The things mentioned here you can get in all parts of the world. Surely the basis of a Finance Bill is that we want to make that Finance Bill contain such things as will reduce the demand upon the taxpayer. The one way of doing that is the scientific development of our industry. It is no good talking about competition. You only have competition where one man knows how to do it and another man is ignorant. The man who knows can do it cheaper. That is the position to-day. If the Parliamentary Secretary cannot follow all the arguments I have used, I will be pleased to lend him something to read.
I want to say a word or two on paragraph (iv). I do not think either the President of the Board of Trade or the Parliamentary Secretary would say that there have been no complaints by those who have been interested in the iron and steel industry with regard to the duties on the compounds and metals mentioned therein. As I see the position, it is this. We are, in the iron and steel industry, in a serious state of depression. We had a question put to-day by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), which was replied to, I thought, in a very able way by the President of the Board of Trade, asking for general protection for the iron and steel industry because of this depression. Yet at this very time, when unemployment is so serious, the Government are deliberately putting on a duty on a raw material used in the manufacture of high-grade steel. I put a question to the President of the Board of Trade before Christmas as to the procedure of the Board of Trade or the Customs in charging the duty upon calcium molybdate. That is a compound which has been used very extensively in connection with the manufacture of steel as a substitute for ferro-molybdenum. At that time last year, there was no duty on ferro-molybdenum, but for some reason or other, which people in the trade have never been able to understand, the compound with calcium was included in the list of scientific chemicals in the old Act. Although it was so important to get the raw material at the cheapest rate in the present depression, they found themselves not only losing in the payment of the duty all they were saving by the use of this compound, but by the time they had paid the duty they found the raw material was costing more than if they had been using some other substitute. Now the Government propose not only to re-impose the duties on calcium molybdate but to include in paragraph (iv) ferro-molybdenum. I think that is absolutely unjustifiable. There is an admission in the Report that there has been very little manufactured indeed in this country right up to the present time of ferro-molybdenum, and when the 1921 Act was being passed it was never thought necessary at all to include that in the Schedule as liable to the duty. So it seems to me it is quite unreasonable, especially having regard to the position of the iron and steel industry at present, that we should put on a duty of this description.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, in replying earlier in the Debate, confined himself almost entirely to the optical instruments and optical glass proposals. He took great pride to the Government because, he said, in spite of the fact that the duties have been operating for five years, the prices have been going down, and the goods have been cheaper, as a matter of fact. I want to ask him a simple question. Has the Government received any revenue from the duties imposed under the 1921 Act? If so, who has paid the duties? Last night, when I was speaking on the question of the duties imposed against our goods going into the Dominions, I was asked the same question by. members opposite. They were very anxious to show then that it was not the British manufacturers who paid the duty. They wanted me to say it was the consumer in the Dominions who paid. Who paid the duties under the 1921 Act? The user of the goods which were imported. Is it not perfectly obvious, therefore, that if there had been no duties on these commodities, although prices may have been going down since 1921, they would have been far cheaper still, and in so far as many of these things are actually raw materials for prime and even basic industries, it would surely have been far better to do without the duties during the whole period 1921 to 1926, and then we should have had a far better chance of recovering our trade and our employment far more rapidly.
One other point I want to make with regard to calcium molybdate. I can thoroughly understand the Government extending the duty to ferro-molybdenum but I cannot understand them keeping it on calcium molybdate. [ Interruption. ] I do not profess to be a great technician. I take the terms as they are supplied to me by people working in the steel industry. I expect the President of the Board of Trade will have to act on the same kind of process. He will have to take the advice of those who have greater technical knowledge of the matter than himself. In the case of calcium molybdate, if I am correctly informed, that can only be manufactured under patent, and it is a patent of an American company who patent both in the States and in this country, and there is therefore no possibility of that particular compound, which has been found to be so valuable in the British iron and steel industry, being manufactured at all in this country. What possible reason can there be therefore for including it in the Schedule? It seems to me that the Government on this Subsection have a very weak case indeed and I am advised by people who are concerned in Sheffield that they very strongly resent either the reimposition of the duty on calcium molybdate or the extension of the duty to ferro-molybdenum.
There was nothing too strong said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) about the way the proceedings of the Committee were conducted. Why was it that a Committee of this more or less private character was set up, and that the people who had real trade interests to be conserved, not only for themselves and their workpeople but for the community as a whole, were never allowed to put their point of view to the Committee? It is not as though in this case the President and the Parliamentary Secretary did not know there were different views on the question. They themselves answered questions of mine on this point in December last. Why was it not made possible for people who held these views and had these interests to conserve to have their views properly ventilated before the Committee which has come to this decision? The real fact is that whenever you begin to tinker with pettifogging tariffs in respect of an industry like this, you inevitably sooner or later get political corruption. It has been the history of every country which has entered into this sort of fiscal juggling. It is becoming increasingly evident that we are becoming subject to the same kind of inroads upon the purity of our own public life and it is very much to be regretted that this House is to be asked to pass duties with such detrimental effects on a great industry like iron and steel when the people concerned have had no real opportunity of making their case before the Committee giving the decision.
Really this is outrageous. We have had very serious statements on this matter, and questions have been addressed to the representatives of the Government, and there is no sign of any reply. We are asked to express our opinion upon all these curious terms embodied in the Clause, and we want an explanation of what they are. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is quite capable of giving it. Not only would it be very interesting, but very informing, if he will give us that information out of the abundance of his knowledge.
I was not expecting the hon. Gentleman to sit down nearly as soon as he did. Very wide ground has been covered, but I am surprised at the lack of information on many of these matters which has been displayed when an hon. Member makes a long speech introducing such words as anodes.
I did not use that word. I spoke of amorphous carbon electrodes.
I was going to point out how mixed the hon. Member got. As to amorphous carbon electrodes, he did not seem to understand the meaning of the expression. I could say a great deal about the constitution and use of amorphous carbon electrodes, and I can tell the hon. Member the meaning of the expression "amorphous," and so forth. Many useful points have been brought out, but I have not time to deal with them all. There is one point in connection with cameras. The hon. Member spoke of many of these matters as being luxury duties. He spoke of the camera as being purely a luxury, and of binoculars used at races and elsewhere as a luxury. If they are luxuries, why does he object? The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) spoke of the British predominence pre-War in some of these industries. We had predominence pre-War. The quality of our optical production pre-War was the highest in the world, but the trouble was that the production was so small, and the development of these industries cannot be continued on a sound economic basis unless we can have a cheap article which can be produced in the mass, and can be purchased by the mass of the people.
We hope that this industry will be able to attain that mass production. With respect to such things as dolls' eyes, beads, and so forth, if hon. Members will turn to Clause 12 they will see that there is provision for exempting such articles as are not considered suitable for the duty. Hon. Members say that the public pay the duty. That is not so. Even with a 33⅓ per cent. duty on goods, we have been reducing the prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who pays?"] I am not going to be drawn into that question. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) spoke at great length about scientific instruments, and he asked what were the scientific instruments. I will tell him of some of them. They are:
I do not think the criticism of the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) is reasonable when he suggests that the interests concerned were not allowed to have any voice or say in the findings of the Committee. He is absolutely wrong. The Committee took advice not merely from the permanent officials, but we saw or wrote to people concerned, and there was made available to us information from every branch of the trade we were examining. We had evidence from the Chemical Society, from the Government chemist, and from the great War Departments, which are the biggest purchasers of these goods. We weighed carefully all the evidence. I hope, therefore, that the suggestion that the subject was not thoroughly examined, and that the President of the Board of Trade did anything wrong in appointing the Committee, will not be accepted.
I have some technical and practical knowledge of the steel trade, and I should like to know whether any of the chemists connected with the steel trade appeared before the Committee, whether any of the officials of my society received an invitation to give evidence, and whether any of the workmen engaged in that trade, who are walking the streets, were invited to give evidence. The most important people are always kept out. The steel industry is taxed quite sufficiently, without being taxed any more. You can call it whatever you like, but you pay a royalty on coal, and four tons of coal go to produce a ton of steel. You also pay royalties on iron ore and other things, and all these calculated together amount to a tax of 7s. 6d. per ton on steel. Now you are going to tax it more, and at a time when there are 40,000 people walking the streets unemployed. You are imposing this tax on one of the most important industries in the country, for the steel industry produces steel for dependent trades, who live absolutely on the exports from this industry, such as tinplates. I should like to occupy half an hour on this subject; I know something about the trade, and I know what I am talking about.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the end of line 37, stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 128.
Division No. 250.] AYES. [9.58 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Ford, Sir P. J. Murchison, C. K. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Albery, Irving James Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Nuttall, Ellis Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Fraser, Captain Ian Oakley, T. Alexander, Sir Win. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Frece, Sir Walter de O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Applln, Colonel R. V. K. Galbraith, J. F. W. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Apsley, Lord Ganzonl, Sir John Penny, Frederick George Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Gates, Percy Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Astbury, Lieut.-Commanded F. W. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Perkins, Colonel E. K. Astor, Viscountess Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Perring, Sir William George Atkinson, C. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gower, Sir Robert Phillpson, Mabel Balniel, Lord Grace, John Pielou, D. P. Banks, Reginald Mitchell Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (Wth's'w, E) Pilcher, G. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gretton, Colonel John Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Barnett, Major Sir Richard Grotrian, H. Brent Preston, William Barnston, Major Sir Harry Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Price, Major C. W. M. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Gunston, Captain D. W. Radford, E. A. Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Raine, W. Berry, Sir George Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Rees, Sir Beddoe Bethel, A. Hammersley, S. S. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Betterton, Henry B. Hanbury, C. Remer, J. R. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Sklpton) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Harland, A. Rice, Sir Frederick Blades, Sir George Rowland Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Blundell, F. N. Harrison, G. J. C. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Brass, Captain W. Hartington, Marquess of Roberts, Samuel (Hereford Hereford) Brassey, Sir Leonard Haslam, Henry C. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hawke, John Anthony Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Briggs, J. Harold Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rye, F. G. Brittain, Sir Harry Henderson, Capt. R.R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Sandeman, A. Stewart Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berkt, Newb'y) Hills, Major John Walter Sanders, Sir Robert A. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Sanderson, Sir Frank Bullock, Captain M. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) Savery, S. S. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W) Burman, J. B. Holland, Sir Arthur Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Burton, Colonel H. W. Hopkins, J. W. W. Shepperson, E. W. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfst.) Cassels, J. D. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hurd, Percy A. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Sprot, Sir Alexander Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Chapman, Sir S. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Chilcott, Sir Warden Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Storry-Deans, R. Christie, J. A. Jacob, A. E. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Jephcott, A. R. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Clarry, Reginald George Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Strickland, Sir Gerald Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Conway, Sir W. Martin Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Styles, Captain H. Walter Cope, Major William Kindersley, Major Guy M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Couper, J. B. King, Captain Henry Douglas Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Lamb, J. Q. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Lister, Cuntiffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Tinne, J. A. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Little, Dr. E. Graham Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Galnsbro) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Waddington, R. Curzon, Captain Viscount Loder, J. de V. Wallace, Captain D. E. Dalkeith, Earl of Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Dalziel, Sir Davison Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Warrender, Sir Victor Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Lumley, L. R. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Lynn, Sir R. J. Watts, Dr. T. Davies, Dr. Vernon MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Wells, S. R. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) McLean, Major A. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Dawson, Sir Philip Margesson, Captain D. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Meller, R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Dixey, A. C. Merriman, F. B. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Meyer, Sir Frank Wise, Sir Fredric Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Withers, John James Edmondson, Major A. J. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Ellis, R. G. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Moore, Sir Newton J. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Everard, W. Lindsay Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wragg, Herbert Falle, Sir Bertram G. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Fielden, E. B. Moreing, Captain A. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Finburgh, S. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Major Hennessy and Captain Bowyer.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Rose, Frank H. Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scrymgeour, E. Ammon, Charles George Handie, George D. Scurr, John Attlee, Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Barr, J. Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Batey, Joseph Hayes, John Henry Sitch, Charles, H. Beckett, John (Gateshead) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, G. H. Snell, Harry Broad, F. A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Bromfield, William Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Bromley, J. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stamford, T. W. Buchanan, G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cape, Thomas Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sutton, J. E. Charleton, H. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Taylor, R. A. Clowes, S. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Tinker, John Joseph Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Compton, Joseph Lansbury, George Varley, Frank B. Connolly, M. Lawrence, Susan Viant, S. P. Cove, W. G. Lawson, John James Wallhead, Richard C. Crawfurd, H. E. Lee, F. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Dalton, Hugh Lowth, T. Warne, G. H. Davies, David (Montgomery) Lunn, William Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Day, Colonel Harry Mackinder, W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Dennison, R. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Welsh, J. C. Dunnico, H. March, S. Westwood, J. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Fenby, T. D. Morris, R. H. Whiteley, W. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin Gibbins, Joseph Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Greenall, T. Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Potts, John S. Groves, T. Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. A. Barnes. Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Riley, Ben
I beg to move, in page 6, line 38, to leave out paragraph (i).
I move this formally.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 129.
Division No. 251.] AYES. [10.7 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Briggs, J. Harold Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Albery, Irving James Brocklebank, C. E. R. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Curzon, Captain Viscount Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bullock, Captain M. Dalkeith, Earl of Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Dalziel, Sir Davison Apsley, Lord Burman, J. B. Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Davidson, Major-General sir J. H. Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Burton. Colonel H. W. Davies, Dr. Vernon Astor, Viscountess Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Atkinson, C. Cassels, J. D. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dawson, Sir Philip Balniel, Lord Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Dixey, A. C. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Barnston, Major Sir Harry Chapman, Sir S. Eden, Captain Anthony Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Chilcott, Sir Warden Edmondson, Major A. J. Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. Christie, J. A. Ellis, R. G. Berry, Sir George Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Bethel, A. Clarry, Reginald George Everard, W. Lindsay Betterton, Henry B. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Falle, Sir Bertram G. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Conway, Sir W. Martin Fielden, E. B. Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cope, Major William Finburgh, S. Blades, Sir George Rowland Couper, J. B. Ford, Sir P. J. Blundell, F. N. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Brass, Captain W. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Brassey, Sir Leonard Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Fraser, Captain Ian Frece, Sir Walter de Little, Dr. E. Graham Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Galbraith, J. F. W. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sandeman, A. Stewart Ganzoni, Sir John Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Gates, Percy Loder, J. de V. Sanderson, Sir Frank Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Savery, S. S. Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lumley, L. R. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Gower, Sir Robert Lynn, Sir R. J. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Grace, John MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Shepperson, E. W. Greenwood. Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Gretton, Colonel John McLean, Major A. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Grotrian, H. Brent McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Gunston, Captain D. W. Meller, R. J. Sprot, Sir Alexander Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Merriman, F. B. Stanley, Lord (Fyide) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Meyer, Sir Frank Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Hammersley, S. S. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Storry-Deans, R. Hanbury, C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. R. C. (Ayr) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Harland, A. Moore, Sir Newton J. Strickland, Sir Gerald Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Harrison, G. J. C. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Styles, Captain H. Walter Hartington, Marquess of Moreing, Captain A. H. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Haslam, Henry C. Morrison. H. (Wilts. Salisbury) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hawke, John Anthony Murchison, C. K. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Nuttall, Ellis Tinne, J. A. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Oakley, T. Turton, Edmund Russborough Hennessy, Major J. R. G. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hills, Major John Walter Oman, Sir Charles William C. Waddington, R. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Penny, Frederick George Wallace, Captain D. E. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Perkins, Colonel E. K. Warrender, Sir Victor Holland, Sir Arthur Perring, Sir William George Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Watts, Dr. T. Hopkins, J. W. W. Philipson, Mabel Wells, S. R. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Pleiou, D. P. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Pilcher, G. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Hurd, Percy A. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n&P'bl's) Preston, William Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Illffe, Sir Edward M. Price, Major C. W. M. Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Radford, E. A. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Raine, W. Wise, Sir Fredric Jacob, A. E. Rees, Sir Beddoe Withers, John James Jephcott, A. R. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Remer, J. R. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Rice, Sir Frederick Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Kindersley, Major Guy M. Richardson Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Wragg, Herbert King, Captain Henry Douglas Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Lamb, J. Q. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hertford) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Ruggles-Briss, Major E. A. Captain Margesson and Caaptain Bowyer. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Day, Colonel Harry Hore-Belisha, Leslie Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dennison, R. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Ammon, Charles George Dunnico, H. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Attlee, Clement Richard Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Barnes, A. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) John, William (Rhondda, West) Barr, J. Fenby, T. D. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Batey, Joseph Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Beckett, John (Gateshead) Gibbins, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Gillett, George M. Kelly, W. T. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gosling, Harry Kennedy, T. Broad, F. A. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Kirkwood, D. Bromfield, William Greenall, T. Lansbury, George Bromley, J. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lawrence, Susan Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lawson, John James Buchanan, G. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lee, F. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Groves, T. Lowth, T. Cape, Thomas Grundy, T W. Lunn, William Charleton, H. C. Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Clowes, S. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Mackinder, W. Cluse, W. S. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hardie, George D. March, S. Compton, Joseph Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Montague, Frederick Connolly, M. Hayday, Arthur Morris, R. H. Cove, W. G. Hayes, John Henry Murnin, H. Crawfurd, H. E. Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Naylor, T. E. Dalton, Hugh Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Oliver, George Harold Davies, David (Montgomery) Hirst, G. H. Owen, Major G. Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Palin, John Henry Paling, W. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Welsh, J. C. Potts, John S. Stamford, T. W. Westwood, J. Purcell, A. A. Stephen, Campbell Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Whiteley, W. Riley, Ben Sutton, J. E. Wiggins, William Martin Rose, Frank H. Taylor, R. A. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Scrymgeour, E. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Scurr, John Tinker, John Joseph Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Varley, Frank B. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Sitch, Charles H. Viant, S. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Wallhead, Richard C Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Snell, Harry Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne.
Amendment proposed: In page 7, line 4, leave out paragraph (iii).—[ Captain Wedgwood Benn. ]
Question put, "That the words pro-
posed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 131.
Division No. 252.] AYES. [10.16 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Agg-Gardner, Ht. Hon. Sir James T. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Albery, Irving James Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainshra) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Holland, Sir Arthur Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cenf'l) Curzon, Captain Viscount Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Dalkeith, Earl of Hopkins, J. W. W. Apsley, Lord Dalziel, Sir Davison Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Hurd, Percy A. Astor, Viscountess Davies, Dr. Vernon Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Atkinson, C. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Balniel, Lord Cawson, Sir Philip Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Banks, Reginald Mitchell Dean, Arthur Wellesley Jacob, A. E. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Dixey, A. C. Jephcott, A. R. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Eden, Captain Anthony Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Edmondson, Major A. J. Kidd, J. (Linllthgow) Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. Ellis, R. G. Kindersley, Major G. M. Bann, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith King, Captain Henry Douglas Barry, Sir George Everard, W. Lindsay Lamb, J. Q. Bethel, A. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Betterton, Henry B. Fierden, E. B. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Finburgh, S. Little, Dr. E. Graham Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Blades, Sir George Rowland Fraser, Captain Ian Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green, Blundell, F. N. Frece, Sir Walter de Loder, J. de V. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W Galbraith, J. F. W. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Brass, Captain W. Ganzoni, Sir John Luce, Major-Gen.Sir Richard Harman Brassey, Sir Leonard Gates, Percy Lumley, L. R. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lynn, Sir R. J. Briggs, J. Harold Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen Brittain, Sir Harry Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gower, Sir Robert McLean, Major A. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Grace, John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Bullock, Captain M. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th'a'w, E) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Gretton, Colonel John Mellor, R. J. Burman, J. B. Grotrian, H. Brent Merriman, F. B. Burney, Lieut-Corn. Charles D Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Meyer, Sir Frank Burton, Colonel H. W. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gunston, Captain D. W. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M Cassels, J. D. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayrl Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Moore, Sir Newton J. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hammersley, S. S. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. U. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hanbury, C. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moreing, Captain A. H. Chapman, Sir S. Harland, A. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Chilcott, Sir Warden Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Christie, J. A. Harrison, G. J. C. Murchison, C. K. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hartington, Marquess of Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Clarry, Reginald George Haslam, Henry C. Nuttall, Ellis Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hawke, John Anthony Oakley, T. Conway, Sir W. Martin Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Cope, Major William Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Couper, J. B. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Penny, Frederick George Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.) Hills, Major John Walter Perkins, Colonel E. K. Perring, Sir William George Savery, S. S. Waddington, R. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.) Wallace, Captain D. E. Philipson, Mabel Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Wtstb'y) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Pielou, D. P. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Warrender, Sir Victor Pilcher, G. Shepperson, E. W. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Watts, Dr. T. Preston, William Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Wells, S. R. Price, Major C. W. M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Radford, E. A. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Raine, W. Sprot, Sir Alexander Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Rees, Sir Beddoe Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Storry-Deans, R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Remer, J. R. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Wise, Sir Fredric Rice, Sir Frederick Strickland, Sir Gerald Withers, John James Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Styles, Captain H. Walter Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Wragg, Herbert Rye, F. G. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Sandeman, A. Stewart Tinne, J. A. Captain Margesson and Lord Stanley. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Sanderson, Sir Frank Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West) Grundy, T. W. Riley, Ben Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Rose, Frank H. Ammon, Charles George Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Scrymgeour, E. Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scurr, John Barnes, A. Hardle, George D. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Barr, J. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Sitch, Charles H. Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hayes, John Henry Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Snell, Harry Broad, F. A Hirst, G. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phllip Bromfield, William Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bromley, J. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stamford, T. W. Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda, West) Sutton, J. E. Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Taylor, R. A. Clowes, S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Varley, Frank B. Cove, W. G. Kirkwood, D. Viant, S. P. Crawfurd, H. E. Lansbury, George Wallhead, Richard C. Dalton, Hugh Lawrence, Susan Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Davies, David (Montgomery) Lawson, John James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lee, F. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Day, Colonel Harry Lowth, T. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Dennison, R. Lunn, William Welsh, J. C. Duckworth, John MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Westwood, J. Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Whiteley, W. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) March, S. Wiggins, William Martin England, Colonel A. Montague, Frederick Wilkinson, Ellen C. Forrest, W. Morris, R. H. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham.) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gibbins, Joseph Naylor, T. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Palin, John Henry Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Greenall, T. Paling, W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Potts, John S. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.Warne. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Purcell, A. A. Groves, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Amendment proposed: In page 7, line 6, leave out paragraph (iv).—[ Mr. A. V. Alexander. ]
Question put, "That the words pro- posed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 130.
Division No. 253.] AYES. [10.27 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Frece, Sir Walter de Nuttall, Ellis Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T Galbraith, J. F. W. Oakley, T. Albery, Irving James Ganzoni, Sir John O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Gates, Percy Oman, Sir Charles William C. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Penny, Frederick George Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Apsley, Lord Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Perkins, Colonel E. K. Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Gower, Sir Robert Perring, Sir William George Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Grace, John Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Astor, Viscountess Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Phillpson, Mabel Atkinson, C. Gretton, Colonel John Pielou, D. P. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Grotrian, H. Brent Pitcher, G. Balniel, Lord Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol,N.) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Banks, Reginald Mitchell Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Preston, William Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gunston, Captain D. W. Price, Major C. W. M. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Radford, E. A. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Raine, W. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Hammersley, S. S. Rees, Sir Beddoe Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W. Hanbury, C. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, D. D. (County Down) Berry, Sir George Harland, A. Remer, J. R. Bethel, A. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Betterton, Henry B. Harrison, G. J. C. Rice, Sir Frederick Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Hartington, Marquess of Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Haslam, Henry C. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Blades, Sir George Rowland Hawke, John Anthony Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Blundell, F. N. Haslam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Brass, Captain W. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon William Clive Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Rye, F. G. Briggs, J. Harold Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Briscoe, Richard George Hills, Major John Walter Sandeman, A. Stewart Brittain, Sir Harry Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) Sanderson, Sir Frank Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Savery, S. S. Bullock, Captain M. Holland, Sir Arthur Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W.) Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Burman, J. B. Hopkins, J. W. W. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Shepperson, E. W. Burton, Colonel H. W. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n& Kinc'dlne, C.) Calne, Gordon Hall Hurd, Percy A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Cassels, J. D. Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Sprot, Sir Alexander Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Jacob, A. E. Storry-Deans, R. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Jephcott, A. R. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Chapman, Sir S. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Chilcott, Sir Warden Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Strickland, Sir Gerald Christie, J. A. Kidd, J. (Linllthgow) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Kindersley, Major Guy M. Styles, Captain H. Walter Clarry, Reginald George King, Captain Henry Douglas Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lamb, J. Q. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Conway, Sir W. Martin Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Cope, Major William Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Couper, J. B. Little, Dr. E. Graham Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Tinne, J. A. Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) Locker-Lampson, Com.O. (Handsw'th) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) Loder, J. de V. Waddington, R. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Wallace, Captain D. E. Curzon, Captain Viscount Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Dalkeith, Earl of Lumley, L. R. Warrender, Sir Victor Dalziel, Sir Davison Lynn, Sir R. J. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Davidson, J.(Hertfd, Hemel Hempst'd) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Watts, Dr. T. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Wells, S. R. Davies, Dr. Vernon McLean, Major A. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Macmillan, Captain H. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Dawson, Sir Philip Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Meller, R. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George Dixey, A. C. Merriman, F. B. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Meyer, Sir Frank Wise, Sir Fredric Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Withers, John James Edmondson, Major A. J. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Ellis, R. G. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth Moore, Sir Newton J. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Everard, W. Lindsay Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Moreing, Captain A. H. Wragg, Herbert Fielden, E. B. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Finburgh, S. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Murchison, C. K. Captain Margesson and Captain Bowyer. Fraser, Captain lan Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Grundy, T. W. Riley, Ben Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Rose, Frank H. Amman, Charles George Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Serymgeour, E. Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scurr, John Barnes, A. Hardie, George D. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Barr, J. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Batey, Joseph Hayday, Arthur Sitch, Charles H. Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hayes, John Henry Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, Rennle (Penistone) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Snell, Harry Broad, F. A. Hirst, G. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Bromfield, William Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bromley, J. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Stamford, T. W. Buchanan, G. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Stephen, Campbell Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cape, Thomas John, William (Rhondda. West) Sutton, J. E. Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Taylor, R. A. Clowes, S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Cluse, W. S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph Compton, Joseph Kelly, W. T. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Connolly, M. Kennedy, T. Variey, Frank B. Cove, W. G. Klrkwood, D. Viant, S. P. Crawfurd, H. E. Lansbury, George Wallhead, Richard C. Dalton, Hugh Lawrence, Susan Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Davies, David (Montgomery) Lawson, John James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Davies, Evan,(Ebbw Vale) Lee, F. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Day, Colonel Harry Lowth, T. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Dennison, R. Lunn, William Welsh, J. C. Duckworth, John MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Westwood. J. Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Whiteley, W. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) March, S. Wiggins, William Martin England, Colonel A. Montague, Frederick Wilkinson, Ellen C. Forrest, W. Morris, R. H. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Murnin, H. Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gibbins, Joseph Naylor, T. E. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Gillett, George M. Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Gosling, Harry Owen, Major G. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Palin, John Henry Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Greenall, T. Paling, W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES —— Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Potts, John S. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Warne. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Purcell. A. A. Groves, T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Amendment proposed: In page 7, to leave out lines 11 to 13.—[ Dalton. ]
Question put, "That the words pro-
posed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 129.
Division No. 254.] AYES. [10.35 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brass, Captain W. Conway, Sir W. Martin Albery, Irving James Brainy, Sir Leonard Cope, Major William Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Couper, J. B. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Briggs, J. Harold Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Briscoe, Richard George Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Apsley, Lord Erittain, Sir Harry Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Galnsbro) Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C (Berks, Newb'y) Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Astor, Viscountess Bullock, Captain M. Curzon, Captain Viscount Atkinson, C. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Dalkeith, Earl of Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burman, J. B. Dalziel, Sir Davison Balniel, Lord Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Kernel Hempst'd) Banks, Reginald Mitchell Burton, Colonel H. W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davies, Dr. Vernon Barnett, Major Sir Richard Caine, Gordon Hall Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Barnston, Major Sir Harry Cassels, J. D. Dawson, Sir Philip Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Dixey, A. C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Berry, Sir George Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Eden, Captain Anthony Bethel, A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Edmondson, Major A. J. Betterton, Henry B. Chapman, Sir S. Ellis, R. G. Bird, E. R (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Chilcott, Sir Warden Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Christie, J. A. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Blades, Sir George Rowland Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Everard, W. Lindsay Blundell, F. N. Clarry, Reginald George Falle, Sir Bertram G. Fermoy, Lord Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Fielden, E. B. Little, Dr. E. Graham Rye, F. G. Finburgh, S. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ford, Sir P. J. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sandeman, A. Stewart Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Fraser, Captain Ian Loder, J. de V. Sanderson, Sir Frank Frece, Sir Walter de Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Savery, S. S. Galbraith, J. F. W. Luca, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel.(Renfrew, W) Ganzoni, Sir John Lumley, L. R. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Gates, Percy Lynn, Sir R. J. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Shepperson, E. W. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.) Gower, Sir Robert McLean, Major A. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Grace, John Macmillan, Captain H. Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (WthVw, E) McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Somerville. A. A. (Windsor) Gretton, Colonel John Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Grotrian, H. Brent Meller, R. J. Sprot, Sir Alexander Guest,Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol,N.) Merriman, F. B. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Meyer, Sir Frank Stanley, Hon. O. F. G (Westm'eland) Gunston, Captain D. W. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Storry-Deans, R. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Monsell, Eyres. Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Hammersley, S. S. Moore, Sir Newton J. Strickland, Sir Gerald Hanbury, C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moreing, Captain A. H. Styles, Captain H. Walter Harland, A. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Harrison, G. J. C. Murchison, C. K. Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hartington, Marquess of Nail Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Haslam, Henry C. Neville, R. J. Thomson, F. C. (Ahtrdeen, South) Hawke, John Anthony Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Tinne, J. A. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nuttall, Ellis Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Henderson, Capt. H. R. (Oxt'd, Henley) Oakley, T. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Waddington, R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wallace, Captain D. E. Hills, Major John Walter Penny, Frederick George Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Warrender, Sir Victor Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone) Perkins, Colonel E. K. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Perring, Sir William George Watts, Dr. T. Holland, Sir Arthur Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wells, S. R. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Phillpson, Mabel Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Hopkins, J. W. W. Pielou, D. P. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Pilcher, G. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whlteh'n) Preston, William Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Hurd, Percy A. Price, Major C. W. M. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n&P'brs) Radford, E. A. Wise, Sir Fredric Hide, Sir Edward M. Ralne, W. Withers, John James Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Rees, Sir Beddoe Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Jacob, A. E. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) Jephcott, A. R. Remer, J. R. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wragg, Herbert Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Rice, Sir Frederick Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Kindersley, Major G. M. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Colonel Gibbs and Captain Margesson. Lamb, J. Q. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Crawfurd, H. E. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normant'on) Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dalton, Hugh Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ammon, Charles George Davies, David (Montgomery) Hardie, George. D. Attlee, Clement Richard Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Barnes, A. Day, Colonel Harry Hayday, Arthur Barr, J. Dennison, R. Hayes, John Henry Batey, Joseph Duckworth John Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Beckett, John (Gateshead) Dunnlco, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Benn, Captain Wedgwpod (Leith) Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Hirst, G. H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. England, Colonel A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Broad, F. A. Forrest, W. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Bromfield, William Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Bromley. J. Gibbina, Joseph Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gillett, George M. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Buchanan, G. Gosling, Harry John, William (Rhondda, West) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Cape, Thomas Greenall, T. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Charieton, H. C. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Clowes, S. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Kelly, W. T. Cluse, W. S. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Kennedy, T. Compton, Joseph Groves, T. Kirkwood, D. Connolly, M. Grundy, T. W. Lansbury, George Cove, W. G. Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Lawrence, Susan Lawson, John James Rose, Frank H. Wallhead, Richard C. Lee, F. Scrymgeour, E. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Lowth, T. Scurr, John Warne, G. H. Lunn, William Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J R.(Aberavon) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mackinder, W. Sitch, Charles H. Webb, Rt. Hen. Sidney Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Welsh, J C. March, S. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Westwood, J. Montague, Frederick Snell, Harry Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Morris, R. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Whiteley, W. Murnin, H. Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Wiggins, William Martin Naylor, T. E. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Wilkinson, Ellen C. Oliver, George Harold Stamford, T. W. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) Owen, Major G. Stephen, Campbell Williams, David (Swansea, East) Palin, John Henry Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Paling, W. Sutton, J. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Taylor, R. A. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Potts, John S. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Purcell. A. A. Tinker, John Joseph Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Varley, Frank B. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Rlley, Ben Viant, S. P. Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.
I beg to move, in page 7, line 25, to leave out the words
It was also clear that it was difficult to draw up a full Schedule, naming many chemicals, and pass it through the House, so that what was done in the Act of 1921 was to catalogue the main heads of the chemicals which it was desired to tax, and then to give power to the Board of Trade to amplify, under those heads, the lists of articles on which the duty was to be levied. In consequence, to the surprise of many people, a simple Schedule, containing a few lines, was amplified five years ago into a booklet containing about 5,000 articles, all alleged by the Board of Trade to be dutiable under the Act of 1921. So obvious was it, even to the servile Parliament of 1921, that this power was too great to be given to the Board of Trade, that a special provision was inserted, in Sub-section (5) of Clause 1 of the Bill, which is referred to in this Clause of this new Bill. In Sub-section (5) it is laid down that where anybody alleged that the article on which a duty was being levied was not in fact an article for which Parliament had given permission for a tax, the complainant could bring his case before a tribunal and the matter was decided judicially. It is not to be supposed that the Board of Trade proved right in all these cases. The referee was a perfectly independent judge, and in some cases it was shown that the President of the Board of Trade had gone too far and put a tax on an article without the consent of Parliament. Then, very properly, the referee gave the case against the Board of Trade, and the duty ceased to be levied.
The President of the Board of Trade proposes to abolish the independent referees and to appoint a Committee of a Judge and two members of the panel. He proposes to decide, not by the independent judicial and impartial view of one expert Judge but by a majority vote by a Committee nominated from a panel which h$ has prepared. This machinery is not so useful or powerful for protecting, I will not say the importer who wishes to import goods but the rights of this House. Therefore we are moving that if the President of the Board of Trade prefers to abolish the independent referee and if he wishes to set up a Committee from a panel which he creates, with, I understand, an independent President, that the opinion of that Committee must be unanimously obtained. The President of the Board of Trade says that they will reject some of his proposals for taxing imports. He has a perfectly simple remedy. When the Committee decide unanimously, he would come to this House and obtain the consent of this House to a new tax for which no doubt he will make out a splendid case. This Amendment is solely concerned with the rights of this House to determine taxation.
I would like to point out that while it is perfectly in order to move to leave out these words and I think the words proposed to be inserted would read, I hardly see how they would be enforcible, because you cannot compel by any Act of Parliament any tribunal to be unanimous. If the hon. Gentleman will think of some words to substitute in the event of the words being left out, no doubt we will arrive at something which will be in harmony and will be enforcible.
I think the object which the hon. Member desires would be met by another Amendment. What we are proposing is that a case when it comes to the tribunal should be decided by a majority. Supposing the hon. Gentleman's proposal were carried and unanimity were required in every case, that would not be undermining but strengthening the position of the Board of Trade, because a case taken to the referees is an appeal against the ruling of the Board of Trade, either by a claimant who says an article has been wrongly included or wrongly excluded. In every case the appeal lies against the Board of Trade. Observe what would happen supposing unanimity were required and were not obtained. In every case the ruling of the Board of Trade would stand, although the majority of the Court was against it, and therefore one of two things would happen. Either we should go on with interminable litigation, waiting till we got unanimity, or, in spite of the fact that the majority of the Court was against the decision of the Board of Trade, unless the Tribunal was unanimous, the wrong decision of the Board of Trade would stand. I am sure that is really not what is in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's mind, and I cannot conceive anything which would be more unfortunate or would more prevent us arriving at a rapid decision, which is what every trader wants. I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not press the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
11.0 P.M.
I beg to move, in page 7, line 37, to leave out the words
"that there is no reasonable probability."
We now pass to a part of the Bill in which the Treasury may by Order exempt any article from the operation of the duty if they are satisfied, on representations made to them, that the article is not made in any part of His Majesty's Dominions in quantities that are substantial, having regard to the consumption of that article for the time being in the United Kingdom, and there is no reasonable probability that the article may be so made. It is obvious that if the object of the Bill is to create an industry in this country, it is idle to continue the duty when after the lapse of time it has been shown that no industry is in fact being created. The purpose underlying the whole of this legislation is that we should have certain industries at our disposal in case of war. The Act has been in force for five years, and despite those five years, a great many articles are not manufactured in this country at all, and yet the duty upon their import remains. [ Interruption. ] I hope to show hon. Members that it is worth the expenditure of a few moments of Parliamentary time to resist the continuation of a policy which in the end must aim a very harmful blow at the interests of all in this country. If a firm can show that they are manufacturing in a substantial quantity, according to the terms of the Bill they are entitled to have a duty. But the Bill goes very much further and says "if they can show that there is a reasonable probability of them being able to manufacture." Those words merely mean that if a manufacturer comes forward and shows that he is not producing, nevertheless he is to have a duty because there is a reasonable probability that he may do so. Either the Bill is intended to create industries or it is intended as a piece of pure Protection. If the industries are not created, we are entitled to say that the plan has failed and that therefore the duty should not be continued. On these grounds, I move the omission of the words "that there is reasonable probability," because those words go far beyond any case that can be justifiably made out by the President of the Board of Trade.
If these words were left out and the word "not" was inserted after the word "will" the net result would be that it would be more difficult to establish a case against an article than it is under the Clause as
it stands. Surely that is not what the hon. and gallant Member wishes. Under the Clause as it stands, the Board have to be satisfied that there is no reasonable probability that the article will be manufactured. If the Amendment were carried, they would have to be satisfied that in fact there would be no chance of the article being manufactured. If the Amendment means, as I gather from the hon. and gallant Member's speech, that he wishes these Duties to apply in no case where the article is not being produced, that is a deliberately wrecking Amendment and I cannot accept it.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 123.
Division No. 255.] AYES. 11.4 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel Clarry, Reginald George Harland, A. Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Ainsworth, Major Charles Cope, Major William Harrison, G. J. C. Albery, Irving James Couper, J. B. Hartington, Marquess of Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Haslam, Henry C. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Hawke, John Anthony Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Apsley, Lord Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Astor, Viscountess Dalkeith, Earl of Hills, Major John Walter Atkinson, C. Davidson, J. (Hertt'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C. Ballour, George (Hampstead) Davidson, Major-General Sir John H Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Balniel, Lord Davies, Dr. Vernon Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Banks, Reginald Mitchell Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Holland, Sir Arthur Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Barnett, Major Sir Richard Dawson, Sir Philip Hopkins, J. W. W. Barnston, Major Sir Harry Dean, Arthur Wellesley Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Dixey, A. C. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Eden, Captain Anthony Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland; Whiteh'n) Bethel, A. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hurd, Percy A. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Ellis, R. G. Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Blades, Sir George Rowland Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Blundell, F. N. Everard, W. Lindsay Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Jacob, A. E. Brass, Captain W. Fermoy, Lord Jephcott, A. R. Brassey, Sir Leonard Fielden, E. B. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Finburgh, S. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Briggs, J. Harold Ford, Sir P. J. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Briscoe, Richard George Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Kindersley, Major G. M. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Fraser, Captain Ian King, Captain Henry Douglas Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Frece, Sir Walter de Lamb, J. Q. Bullock, Captain M. Galbraith, J. F. W. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Ganzonl, Sir John Lister, Cunllffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Burman, J. B. Gates, Percy Little, Dr. E. Graham Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Burton, Colonel H. W. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Locker-Lampson. Com. O. (Handsw'th) Calne, Gordon Hall Gower, Sir Robert Loder, J. de V. Campbell, E. T. Grace, John Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Cassels, J. D. Gretton, Colonel John Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grotrian, H. Brent Lumley, L. R. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Lynn, Sir Robert J. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Gunston, Captain D. W. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Chapman, Sir S. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) McLean, Major A. Chilcott, Sir Warden Hammersley, S. S. Macmillan, Captain H. Christie, J. A. Hanbury, C. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Rees, Sir Beddoe Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Meller, R. J. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Merriman, F. B. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Styles, Captain H. Walter Meyer, Sir Frank Remer, J. R. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Rice, Sir Frederick Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Moore, Sir Newton J. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Moreing, Captain A. H. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Tinne, J. A. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Waddington, R. Murchison, C. K. Rye, F. G. Wallace, Captain D. E. Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Neville, R. J. Sandeman, A. Stewart Warrender, Sir Victor Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Nuttall, Ellis Sanderson, Sir Frank Watts, Dr. T. Oakley, T. Savery, S. S. Wells, S. R. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Penny, Frederick George Shepperson, E. W. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Perkins, Colonel E. K. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Wise, Sir Fredric Perring, Sir William George Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Withers, John James Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Philipson, Mabel Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Pielou, D. P. Sprot, Sir Alexander Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Pilcher, G. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wragg, Herbert Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Storry-Deans, R. Preston, William Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Price, Major C. W. M. Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Captain Margesson and Lord Stanley. Radford, E. A. Strickland, Sir Gerald Stanley. Ralne, W.
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Greves T. Riley, Ben Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Grundy, T. W. Rose, Frank H. Ammon, Charles George Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Scrymgeour, E. Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Scurr, John Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hardie, George D. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Barnes, A. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barr, J. Hayday, Arthur Sitch, Charles H. Batey, Joseph Hayes, John Henry Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithes Beckett, John (Gateshead) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Snell, Harry Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hirst, G. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Broad, F. A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bromfield, William Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Bromley, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stamford, T. W. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) John, William (Rhondda, West) Stephen, Campbell Buchanan, G. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Cape, Thomas Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sutton, J. E. Charleton, H. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Taylor, R. A. Clowes, S. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Cluse, W. S. Kennedy, T. Tinker, John Joseph Compton, Joseph Kirkwood, D. Varley, Frank B. Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Viant, S. P. Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Susan Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Warne, G. H. Davies, David (Montgomery) Lee, F. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Day, Colonel Harry MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Duckworth, John Mackinder, W. Welsh, J. C. Dunnico, H. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Morris, R. H. Whiteley, W. England, Colonel A. Murnin, H. Wiggins, William Martin Forrest, W. Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Oliver, George Harold Williams, David (Swansea, East) Gibbins, Joseph Owen, Major G. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Gillett, George M. Palln, John Henry Williams. T. (York, Don Valley) Gosling, Harry Paling, W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wright, W. Greenall, T. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Potts, John S. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Purcell, A. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sir Robert Hutchison and Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.
Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.
rose —
Hear, hear!
I hope that the universal enthusiasm shown for the hon. and gallant Member will not delay further the progress of the Committee.
I beg to move, in page 7, line 40, at the end, to add the words:
"Provided that a quantity shall not be deemed to be 'substantial' unless it amounts to 80 per cent. of the annual consumption of that article for the time being in the United Kingdom, and that the phrase 'reasonable period' shall mean, one year from the date of the said representation."
I was waiting for an opportunity to express the anticipation myself that I should have the universal approval of the Committee in this Amendment standing in the name of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney). I will very briefly explain the reasons for this Amendment. The Committee will have observed that the Subsection is very loosely drawn indeed. The Treasury may accept articles which are not being produced in substantial quantities either in the United Kingdom or in the Empire. Nothing is laid down as to what "substantial quantities" means. It is well known that after five years certain important chemicals are not yet being produced in any quantities in this country. I, therefore, put down 80 per cent., though I am prepared to accept 70 per cent.; and I propose one year as a reasonable time. The words of the Amendment will assist the Executive in carrying out the provisions of the Act; they will assist the Customs and the Safeguarding Committees. If the words of the Amendment are not suitable, perhaps the Minister will suggest others. In business uncertainty is very injurious. It is necessary that the dealers in and the users of commodities, some of which are important raw materials in large industries, should know exactly where they stand.
It is some satisfaction that we find ourselves at the end of the day in such a good humour. On behalf of the Government I can express the greatest indebtedness to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his suggestion. He asked the President of the Board of Trade to suggest any alteration of the Amendment. My right hon. Friend would probably prefer the Clause as it stands without the addition suggested by the hon. and gallant Member. It is easy to point out the difficulties of carrying out the Amendment. In the first place the necessary information will frequently not be available for us to make the suggested calculations, and the conditions may vary from year to year. Our production of lenses for binoculars is 80 per cent., and we have a very much higher capacity of production. There is just one other thing which I wish to say very seriously. I am reminded of an occasion last year when I was dealing with this very subject, but in relation to the fine chemical industry, and, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), I said I found that as a result of restrictions on foreign competition since 1914, during the period of the import duty, these conditions had brought about a marked improvement in the volume of trade, and the range of articles and a reduction of price, and so forth. On the next day I received a letter from a most estimable firm of chemical people in London. They wrote to me personally as follows:
"In your own interest it is only right to draw your attention to the fact that such statements as you made in the House of Commons last night concerning the Fine Chemical Industry under the Safeguarding of Industries Act really make you the laughing stock of everybody connected with the trade. Even the few who benefit must be laughing up their sleeves at you. If only you knew the harm the Act has done, especially to the export trade of this country and the fraud and deception which is carried on under it, you would, I am sure, see the absurdity of your statement."
[ Laughter. ] That was rather chilling, but what was the signature to the letter? Hon. Members who laugh may be interested to hear it—and this is why I am reading the letter because it points a moral. The signature is "Zimmerman and Company." That is really the whole resistance to these proposals—[ Interruption ].
What about Gluckstein?
If it is any satisfaction to the hon. Gentleman he may be glad to hear that I made no sort of communication of any kind in connection with this Amendment. This Amendment is moved as a matter of principle, and I have had no sort of correspondence or interviews with any particular concern, even in my own constituency. I am actuated by certain beliefs in what is good for the welfare of the whole of the country, and I am simply trying to improve an extremely mischievous and injurious Act.
I am perfectly sure that the hon. and gallant Member's motives are of the very highest, and I think I put that right in what I said about his Amendment. I went on to
mention the other matter as being a subject of interest.
What was the name of the firm.
Zimmerman.
Question put, "That those words be there added."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 116; Noes, 241.
Division No. 256.] AYES. [11.26 p.m. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Scurr, John Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Ammon, Charles George Hayes, John Henry Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Sitch, Charles H. Barnes, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Snell, Harry Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Broad, F. A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stamford, T. W. Bromfield, William John, William (Rhondda, West) Stephen, Campbell Bromley, J. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sutton, J. E. Buchanan, G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Taylor, R. A. Cape, Thomas Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, T. Tinker, John Joseph Clowes, S. Kirkwood, D. Varley, Frank B. Compton, Joseph Lansbury, George Viant, S. P. Connolly, M. Lawrence, Susan Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Warne, G. H. Davies, David (Montgomery) Lee, F. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Day, Colonel Harry MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Welsh, J. C. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Westwood, J. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Morris, R. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Gibbins, Joseph Murnin, H. Whiteley, W. Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Wiggins, William Martin Gosling, Harry Oliver, George Harold Wilkinson, Ellen C. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Owen, Major G. Williams, David (Swansea. E.) Greenall, T. Palin, John Henry Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Paling, W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wright, W. Groves, T. Potts, John S. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Grundy, T. W. Purcell, A. A. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Riley, Ben Major Crawford and Lieut.-Com-mander Kenworthy. Hardie, George D. Scrymgeour, E.
NOES. Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel Brass, Captain W. Clarry, Reginald George Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Brassey, Sir Leonard Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Ainsworth, Major Charles Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Cope, Major William Albery, Irving James Briggs, J. Harold Couper, J. B. Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Briscoe, Richard George Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Apsley, Lord Bullock, Captain M. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Llndsey, Gainsbro) Astor, Viscountess Burman, J. B. Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Atkinson, C. Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Curzon, Captain viscount Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burton, Colonel H. W. Dalkeith. Earl of Balniel, Lord Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Banks, Reginald Mitchell Campbell. E. T. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cassels, J. D. Davies, Dr. Vernon Barnett, Major Sir Richard Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Dawson, Sir Philip Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Dean, Arthur Wellesley Bethel, A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Dlxey, A. C. Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Chapman, Sir S. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Chilcott, Sir Warden Eden, Captain Anthony Blades, Sir George Rowland Christie, J. A. Edmondson, Major A. J. Blundell, F. N. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Ellis, R. G. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) King, Captain Henry Douglas Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Everard, W. Lindsay Lamb, J. Q. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Fermoy, Lord Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Fielden, E. B. Little, Dr. E. Graham Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Finburgh, S. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Ford, Sir P. J. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sandeman, A. Stewart Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Sanders, Sir Robert A. Fraser, Captain Ian Loder, J. de V. Sanderson, Sir Frank Frece, Sir Walter do Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. Galbraith, J. F. W. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Savery, S. S. Ganzoni, Sir John Lumley. L. R. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W) Gates, Percy Lynn, Sir R. J. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Shepperson, E. W. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Gower, Sir Robert McLean, Major A. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Grace, John Macmillan, Captain H. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Gretton, Colonel John McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Grotrian, H. Brent Margesson, Capt. D. Sprot, Sir Alexander Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Gunston, Captain D. W Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Meller, R. J. Storry-Deans, R. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Merriman, F. B. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Hammersley, S. S. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Hanbury, C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Strickland, Sir Gerald Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Harland, A. Moore, Sir Newton J. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Moreing, Captain A. H. Styles, Captain H. Walter Harrison, G. J. C. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Hartington, Marquess of Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Haslam, Henry C. Murchison. C. K. Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Neville, R. J. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Tinne, J. A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Nuttall, Ellis Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hills, Major John Waller Oakley, T. Waddington, K Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wallace, Captain D. E. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Oman, Sir Charles William C. Warrender, Sir Victor Holland, Sir Arthur Penny, Frederick George Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Watts, Dr. T. Hopkins, J. W. W. Perkins, Colonel E. K. Wells, S. R. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Phillpson, Mabel Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Pielou, D. P. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Pilcher, G. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Hurd, Percy A. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Preston, William Wise, Sir Fredric Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Price, Major C. W. M. Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Radford, E A Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Ralne, W. Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Jacob, A. E. Rees, Sir Beddoe Wragg, Herbert Jephcott, A. R. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Reid, D. D. (County Down) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Remer, J. R. Major Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Bowyer. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Kindersley, Major Guy M. Rice, Sir Frederick
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 114.
Division No. 257.] AYES. [11.35 p.m. Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Cassels, J. D. Ainsworth, Major Charles Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Albery, Irving James Blades, Sir George Rowland Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Blundell, F. N. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Brass, Captain W. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Apsley, Lord Brassey, Sir Leonard Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Chapman, Sir S. Astor, Viscountess Briggs, J. Harold Chilcott, Sir Warden Atkinson, C. Briscoe, Richard George Christie, J. A. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Brocklebank, C. E. R. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Balniel, Lord Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Clarry, Reginald George Banks, Reginald Mitchell Bullock, Captain M. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel sir Alan Cope, Major William Barnett, Major Sir Richard Burman, J. B. Couper, J. B. Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Burton, Colonel H. W. Cowan Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn, N.) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Bethel, A. Campbell, E. T. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hurd, Percy A. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Curzon, Captain Viscount Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Dalkeith, Earl of Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H Remer, J. R. Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Jacob, A. E. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Davies, Dr. Vernon Jephcott, A. R. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Dawson, Sir Philip Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Dean, Arthur Wellesley Kindersley, Major G. M. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Dixey, A. C. King, Captain Henry Douglas Sandeman, A. Stewart Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. H Lamb, J. Q. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Eden, Captain Anthony Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Sanderson, Sir Frank Edmondson, Major A. J. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Ellis, R. G. Little, Dr. E. Graham Savery, S. S. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) Everard, W. Lindsay Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Falle, Sir Bertram G. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Shepperson, E. W. Fermoy, Lord Loder, J. de V. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Fleiden, E. B. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Finburgh, S. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Ford, Sir P. J. Lumley, L. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Lynn, Sir R. J. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Fraser, Captain Ian MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sprot, Sir Alexander Frece, Sir Walter de Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Galbraith, J. F. W. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Ganzoni, Sir John McLean, Major A. Storry-Deans, R. Gates, Percy Macmillan, Captain H. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Margesson, Capt. D. Strickland, Sir Gerald Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Grace, John Mason, Lieut.-Col. Clyn K. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Gretton, Colonel John Meller, R. J. Styles, Captain H. Walter Grotrian, H. Brent Merriman, F. B. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Gunston, Captain D. W. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Moore, Sir Newton J Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Moreing, Captain A. H. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Hammersley, S. S. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Tinne, J. A. Hanbury, C. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Murchison, C. K. Waddington, R. Harland, A. Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Wallace, Captain D. E. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Neville, R. J. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Harrison, G. J. C. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Warrender, Sir Victor Hartington, Marquess of Nuttall, Ellis Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Haslam, Henry C. Oakley, T. Watts, Dr. T. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wells, S. R. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur p. Penny, Frederick George Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Hennesty, Major J. R. G. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Hills, Major John Waller Perkins, Colonel E. K. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Phillpson, Mabel Wise, Sir Fredric Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Plelou, D. P. Wood, E. (Chesfr, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) Holland, Sir Arthur Pilcher, G. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak) Hopkins, J. W. W. Preston, William Wragg, Herbert Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Price, Major C. W. M. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Radford, E. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Raine, W. Major Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Bowyer. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Rees, Sir Beddoe
NOES. Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Dalton, Hugh Hardie, George D. Ammon, Charles George Davies, David (Montgomery) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Hayday, Arthur Barnes, A. Day, Colonel Harry Hayes, John Henry Barr, J. Duckworth, John Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Batey, Joseph Dunnico, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Beckett, John (Gateshead) England, Colonel A. Hirst, G. H. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Forrest, W. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Broad, F. A. Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Bromfield, William Gillett, George M. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrost) Bromley, J. Gosling, Harry Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) John, William (Rhondda, West) Buchanan, G. Greenail, T. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Cape, Thomas Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Charieton, H. C. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Clowes, S. Groves, T. Kelly, W. T. Compton, Joseph Grundy, T. W. Kennedy, T. Connolly, M. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Crawfurd, H. E. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Kirkwood, D. Lansbury, George Rose, Frank H. Varley, Frank B. Lawrence, Susan Scrymgeour, E. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Lawson, John Jame Scurr, John Warne, G. H. Lunn, William Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mackinder, W. Sitch, Charles H. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Welsh, J. C. Morris, R. H. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Westwood, J. Murnin, H. Snell, Harry Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. Naylor, T. E. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Whiteley, W. Oliver, George Harold Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) Wiggins, William Martin Owen, Major G. Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles Williams, David (Swansea, E.) Palin, John Henry Stamford, T. W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Paling, W. Stephen, Campbell Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Potts, John S. Sulton, J. E. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Purcell, A. A. Taylor, R. A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Riley, Ben Tinker, John Joseph Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.
CLAUSE 11.—(Customs Duty on wrapping paper.)
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister. ]
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow
Marriage (Prohibited Degrees of Relationship) Bill
Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Thirteen Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.