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Commons Chamber

Volume 196: debated on Wednesday 9 June 1926

House of Commons

Wednesday, June 9, 1926

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Hackney Borough Council Bill,

Lords Amendments to be considered upon Friday.

Southern Railway Bill (by Order),

Third Reading deferred till Friday.

Marriages Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order Bill,

Tramways Provisional Order Bill,

Read a Second time, and committed.

City of London Churches

I desire to present to this hon. House a petition signed on behalf of various Royal and other influential societies. The petition prays that this House will reject the Union of Benefices and Disposal of Churches (Metropolis) Measure, 1924, and it does so on various grounds, but, in particular, because of the fact that out of 19 churches specially threatened in the City of London, 13 were designed by Wren, one by Inigo Jones and Wren, one by Hawksmoor, one by Dance, and one by his son. They submit that the City churches are unique, both historically in regard to the circumstances in which they were built and their intimate association with the City of London, and architecturally in regard to their design, and that, as such, they are regarded with affection, not only by the inhabitants of London, but by all the English-speaking race. The petition recites other reasons, and is officially signed on behalf of the Royal Academy of Arts, the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Society of Antiquaries, the National Trust, the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings, the London Society, the British Archæological Association, the Church Crafts League, and other bodies.

Oral Answers to Questions

China

Boxer Indemnity (Administration)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to publish, and, if so, in what form, the recent official announcement on the method of administering the Boxer indemnity, a précis of which has appeared in the Press?

The Press notice referred to reproduces for publication in this country a statement which the British Boxer Indemnity Delegation has been authorised to publish at once in China. The delegation are engaged in completing their investigations in China and in preparing the report which will embody their detailed proposals. A further announcement will be published when this report has been received by the Advisory Committee in London and when any recommendations which the latter may base thereon have been considered by His Majesty's Government.

Railways (British Investments)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of money invested in Chinese railways by British investors And the railway loans on which the payment of interest and sinking fund has been kept up to date; whether he has received any representations, and, if so, what; as to the depreciation of the security for these loans; and whether he will call for an official report on the whole subject from the British representatives in China?

The outstanding amount of the Chinese railway loans issued on the British market is about £12,000,000. A proportion of this is no doubt in foreign hands, while there are known to be large British holdings in Chinese railway loans of non-British issue. There is, however, no means of ascertaining the extent of these holdings, so that the total of the British investments cannot be given, but it is almost certainly much in excess of the sum quoted above. I regret that I cannot, in the short time available and with due regard for accuracy, provide a complete list of the railway loans which have continued to be paid up to date, but I will send my hon. Friend a statement at an early date. His Majesty's Government and His Majesty's Legation at Peking have been approached from time to time by the British interests concerned in regard to the widespread interruption of railway communication and consequent depreciation of the security for the loans, and representations have been made to the Chinese Government; but so long as civil wars continue it is difficult to see how the position can be remedied. His Majesty's Minister, who is in close touch with the situation, keeps His Majesty's Government informed of new developments as they occur, and I do not think there is any need to call for a comprehensive report.

Will the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs endeavour to take some steps to preserve the interests of the British bond holders and British investors in Chinese securities?

Is it not a fact that the security for these loans in the shape of rolling stock and permanent way is fast disappearing?

It is perfectly true that the security is really the railways themselves and during the continuance of the civil wars it is extremely difficult to deal with the situation. Certainly the point raised by my hon. Friend will be borne in mind.

Is not one of the reasons given by those with investments abroad for getting high dividends, the fact that they risk their capital by investing it abroad; and why should they not take that risk alone without involving us?

Salt Revenue

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the seizure of the salt gabelle at Tientsin; whether these revenues are being administered according to the inter national agreements of 1913, and if not what steps he proposes to take to ensure the collection of the tax?

Fuller reports which have now been received from His Majesty's Minister are to the effect that the military authorities at Tientsin are compelling the salt merchants to pay duties direct to them instead of to the Salt Administration. Though no official confirmation has yet been received it is feared that the reports this morning to the effect that the legally constituted administration at Tientsin has actually been displaced by military officers may be true. The action of these officers is a flagrant breach of the Loan Agreement. Protests and representations have so far been unavailing, largely owing to the fact that no Central Government has as yet been re-constituted in Peking. His Majesty's Government are considering what further steps can be taken to ensure respect for international agreements. The fact that there is a reserve in the group banks which may be drawn upon for the service of the loans involved fortunately gives us time to concert the most appropriate measures to be adopted to meet the crisis, and instructions are being sent to His Majesty's Minister at Peking with a view to the protection of the legitimate interests of British subjects.

Will the hon. Gentleman cause very strong instructions to be sent in view of the very great loss to British prestige in the Far East?

When the hon. Gentleman refers to the reserve in the banks where the revenue is banked, is the reference to English banks or Chinese?

Questions

British Embassy, Washington

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Embassy is being moved from Washington this summer; if so, what is the estimated cost; what was the cost of the move last year; and whether- any Departments of the United States Government or Embassies or Legations leave Washington during the summer months?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The maximum charge to public funds will be £1,100. Last year the cost was £1,050. The Departments of the United States Government do not leave Washington during the summer months, but I understand that several foreign Embassies and Legations do so.

What is the reason for this Embassy removing from Washington during the summer months, when the United States Government does not leave the seat of government?

In the first place, it is far more difficult to remove a State Department than to move an Embassy or a Legation, but, in addition to that, Americans are far more used to the climate than are the members of foreign Embassies and Legations. The climate is very trying, and it is owing to considerations of health that this move is made.

Are we to take it that while the American Government continue their deliberations in Washington, our Embassy removes entirely from the seat of government because of the climate? Cannot we get some people who are acclimatised?

Is it not a fact that far better work can be done by Englishmen in the United States, if they are resident in Massachusetts and Maine than if they are in the torrid climate of Washington during the summer months?

Was it not the case before the War that the State Departments did move away from Washington in the summer?

Morocco

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has made on behalf of His Majesty's Government to the inquiry of the Royal Italian Government regarding our attitude towards the Moroccan situation; and whether he anti- cipates the holding of an international conference to discuss certain matters in Morocco and Tangier?

No inquiry of the nature suggested by the hon. and gallant Member has been made. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.

Mosul Boundary Treaty

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the proposed Treaty between Great Britain, Turkey and Iraq will be published; whether it will be registered with the League of Nations; whether the royalties on oil produced in Iraq to be paid to the Turkish Government refers to the Mosul province only or to the whole of Iraq; and whether the other Governments whose nationals are interested in the oil-drilling rights of the Mosul province have been, or will be, consulted as to this provision of the proposed Treaty?

It is hoped to lay the Treaty as a White Paper, and thereafter to publish it, as soon as the text is received from Constantinople. His Majesty's Government propose to register the Treaty with the League of Nations as soon as it has been ratified by all the parties. With regard to the third part of the question, the share of the Iraq Government's royalties assigned to Turkey for 25 years relates to oil and byproducts produced in the area covered by the Turkish Petroleum Company's concession, that is the whole of Iraq with the exception of the Basra vilayet and of the territories transferred by Persia to Turkey in 1914. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

In consequence of this Agreement, will this country be involved in any more expenditure out there?

Soviet Mission, London

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the status of the Soviet mission in London has been raised to that of an Embassy?

The Soviet Mission is still under a Chargé d'Affaires, who occupies this position, pending the appointment of an Ambassador.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that on the gates of Chesham House there is a notice in English stating that it is an Embassy of the Soviet; and if it is not an Embassy, is such action in accordance with the usual diplomatic courtesy?

Until an Ambassador has been appointed, it is perfectly in order that a Charge d' Affaires should be in charge.

Will my hon. Friend inform the House, in view of the unfriendly attitude of the Soviet Government to this country—

Greece (British Naval Mission)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the British Naval Mission to Greece sent out in July, 1925, is fulfilling the full period of the time agreed upon, or whether their mission is to terminate earlier than the date agreed upon; if so, how much earlier; and, in the latter case, will he state the reasons?

The officers of the Naval Mission were placed at the disposal of the Greek Government for a period of two years, beginning on the date on which they commenced their appointments, namely, 15th April, 1925. The Greek Government have officially notified that, as a measure of economy, they have decided to terminate the contract as from 26th May, 1926.

May I ask whether His Majesty's Government agree to the determination of this contract before it has run its full time?

There are arrangements in the contract for terminating it in a certain time under notice, and all that I know about it is that the Greek Government consider it necessary, in the interests of economy, to do so.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that no other Power is going to send a Naval Mission to take the place of the British Naval Mission in Greece?

I cannot say that, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question, I will try to answer it.

Royal Navy

Rosyth Dockyard (Shipbreaking)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the increase in the number of unemployed persons in the Dunfermline area due to the closing of Rosyth Dockyard, he has yet made any arrangement for increasing the amount of shipbreaking in the dockyard; and, if so, when he expects such work to be available?

The Admiralty are about to invite tenders from shipbreaking firms for the purchase of a large block of surplus tonnage, and will offer facilities at Rosyth Dockyard for breaking up a number of the ships.

Flour

asked the First Lord of the Admiraty if he will con duct experiments with flour with a per centage of British-grown wheat, with a view to seeing if it is suitable for the requirements of the Navy?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave to his question of 10th March last on the subject of bread and flour for the Navy (OFFICIAL REPORT, cols. 2264–5). The Admiralty stipulates for a certain type of flour, but imposes no conditions as to the descriptions of wheat to be used in its preparation, as any such conditions are considered to be impracticable. In these circumstances, I am afraid that no useful purpose would be served by experiments such as those suggested.

Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been called to the experiments now proposed to be carried out by the Army bakeries, and will he regard these experiments with a friendly eye?

Is it stipulated that the flour should be first, second, or third grade?

Disability Pensions Appeals

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many naval invalids, whose cause of invaliding was considered not attributable to service in 1925, appealed to the Board of Admiralty against the decision of the local surveying officers; and in how many instances was the decision reversed as the result of such reinvestigation?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) on the 10th February last—[OFFICIAL REPORT, col. 1028].

Depot EmployéS

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many men are borne on the depot books of each port, and what percentage are on foreign service from each port?

I am making inquiries, and immediately the information is available I shall communicate with the hon. Member.

Warrant Officers' Retirement (Compensation)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, see- ing that until July, 1922, Article 1915 of K.R. and A1 read age for retirement they shall be pensioned at 55 years of age, and that now warrant officers are compulsorily retired at the age of 50, it is proposed to grant compensation to those who were promoted before July, 1922, when the terms of service were altered to their disadvantage, and who, as a consequence, have the prospect of losing five years' service with attendant emoluments and rights?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my predecessor to the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) on the 18th June, 1924; of which I am sending him a copy.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, col. 2100.]

Questions

Ancient Buildings (Exportation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he is aware that no less than four ancient buildings have been exported to America during the present year; that the Chantry House, Billericay, is now similarly threatened; and whether, as the Office of Works lack legislative power to interfere with the destruction of ancient buildings capable of being inhabited, steps will be taken by legislation to prevent the continuance of this practice?

The First Commissioner has not exact statistics of the export of such buildings, but he is always prepared to consider, in any case to which his attention is drawn, what action his Department is warranted in taking in the particular circumstances. As has already been indicated to the hon. Member, it is not a question of legislative powers as much as of finance.

The latter part of my question asks whether the Government will introduce legislation to deal with houses which are inhabited and which are ancient, and that part has not been answered.

Legislation would be of no use unless the House were pre- pared to purchase these houses, or, at any rate, to put down a considerable sum of money in order to allow them to be purchased. Legislation must be coupled with finance.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is a considerable number of ancient buildings in the county of Lanark which were condemned as unfit for human habitation in the forties of last century that are still being inhabited, and will he undertake to have them exported to America?

Might we not sell one of our most ancient buildings, the place next door?

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman receive representations in regard to the action being taken in respect of Chantrey House, Billericay?

My Noble Friend is always prepared to consider any representations that are made to him.

Royal Air Force

Cricket Team (Conveyance by Aeroplanes)

asked the Secretary of State for Air the cost of conveying the Royal Air Force cricket team from Manston to Eastchurch by means of Royal Air Force aeroplanes?

No special expenditure was involved in the conveyance of the members of the cricket team. The flight was carried out in the normal course of Service training, and the team merely occupied seats which were, in any case, available.

Smoke Bomb Trial (Accident)

asked the Secretary of State for Air if his attention has been drawn to the accidental release of a smoke-bomb which caused damage to a house at Caterham on the 26th May during practice operations from Kenley Aerodrome; and will he cause such trials to be conducted away from populated districts in future?

Yes, Sir; my attention has been drawn to the accident in question, the occurrence of which I very much regret. The accident is at present under investigation, and I am not yet in a position to express a definite opinion, but I may say that the evidence so far available points to the extreme unlikelihood of a recurrence. I do not think that a single isolated case of this kind would justify the dislocation of training and increased expense which would be involved in sending home defence fighter squadrons to carry out their training with dummy bombs at stations other than their own.

Unemployment

Insurance Benefit

asked the Minister of Labour for what reason employés holding shares in Messrs. Sankey and Sons' Pottery Company, Nottingham, now closed down owing to coal shortage, have been refused unemployment benefit?

I think the hon. Member must have been misinformed. According to my information, all the claims made by these employés were allowed.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that on 4th June payment of unemployment insurance benefit was made to non-union men employed at the Consett Coal and Iron Company up to the date of the coal dispute, while members of the National Union of General and Municipal Workers were refused benefit, and the men were requested, when making an application for unemployment benefit at the local Exchange, to testify whether they were, or were not, trade unionists; and if he will take action in the matter?

I am having inquiry made, and will let the hon. Member know the result as soon as possible.

Statistics

asked the Minister of Labour the latest available figures of unemployment?

At 31st May, 1926, the latest date for which figures are available, there were 1,614,200 persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain, exclusive of persons who ceased work in the coal mining industry on account of the dispute.

Questions

Meat Prices (Import Restrictions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will investigate the effect on the price of meat in consequence of the issue of the Order prohibiting the importation of fresh meat from the Continent?

asked the President of the. Board of Trade if he will instruct the Food Council, in view of the Order of the Minister of Agriculture prohibiting the landing in this country of uncured carcases of cattle, sheep and pigs from any Continental country, to study the wholesale and retail sale of fresh meat with the object of avoiding all attempts at profiteering in Great Britain?

The effect of the prohibition on the price of meat will be carefully watched by the Board of Trade, and, if it becomes necessary, I will invite the Food Council to consider what steps should be taken to prevent any undue rise in prices.

Have the Government considered the advisability of putting Section 3, paragraph ( b ) of the Emergency Powers Act into operation?

I do not think we have got so far as that. A preliminary step would be to refer it to the Food Council.

Has the hon. Gentleman the power, if he has the will, to stop these increases of price?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that any diminution of supplies of foreign meat would be of great benefit to rearers of stock in this country?

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the Order prohibiting the importation of fresh meat is regarded by Smithfield Market dealers as being too drastic, and that the announcement of this Order at once increased the price of meat; whether, in view of the crisis which has resulted, he will cause the Order to be varied; whether he will issue instructions for one of his departmental veterinary inspectors to supervise the shipment of meat received; and whether he will exclude from the prohibition applying to Belgium the slaughtering establishment at Zeebrugge, in consequence of it being an English-owned concern set up solely for the purpose of handling live cattle imported from Argentina?

I am aware that the issue of the Importation of Carcases (Prohibition) Order was followed by an increase in the price of meat in London. The proportion of the total meat imports affected by the Order is, however, small, and there is no reason why the deficiency should not be made up from other sources within a reasonable time. I know of no crisis which has resulted. The answer to the third part is in the negative. So long as foot-and-mouth disease remains prevalent on the Continent, no system of meat inspection either on the Continent or in this coutry would provide adequate protection against the risk of importing diseased carcases, many of which may be the carcases of animals slaughtered in the incubative stages of the disease before any recognisable lesions have developed. I regret that I cannot exclude the slaughtering establishment at Zeebrugge, inasmuch as, being situated in a country in which foot-and-mouth disease is rife, those premises are subject to the same risk of infection as any other place on the Continent.

May I put the same question that I put before, namely, whether the Government, or the right hon. Gentleman's Department, have considered the desirability of putting Section 3, paragraph ( b ), of the Emergency Powers Act into operation?

I have not considered it, nor do I think it necessary. Pork prices were just as high last December, when there was free importation of foreign meat, and I have no reason to think the present rise in prices is other than temporary, and that it will not be put right by the re-adjustment of supplies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that meat prices during the last few days jumped up a penny and even two pence a pound, and is he not aware that it means thousands of pounds extracted from the pockets of the meat consumers of this country?

The imported meat comes largely to London. There are supplies in other parts of the country which, no doubt, are brought in, and my report to-day is that the supplies are good and the prices are weak.

Why should there be an increase in price, when it does not cost dealers anything more for transportation and distribution?

Obviously, the cause is due to shortage of supplies, and that, probably, is only temporary.

Industrial Situation

Great Western Railway

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, on account of the congestion and shortage of labour on the Great (Western Railway, passengers holding first-class tickets are compelled to travel third class; that trains arrive late at their destination because there are insufficient hands to deal with the parcels and luggage; and what action he proposes to take with a view to the re-engaging of the men who are now unemployed?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am not aware of the circumstances referred to, but I will make inquiries and let the hon. Member know the result.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I personally and others have been put to great inconvenience on account of the railway travelling on the Great Western Railway, and that I have been able myself to watch trains being held up owing to shortage of labour; and is he aware that I and scores of others have walked—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]—it affects hon. Members and the strikers as well— on account of insufficient labour to deal with parcels and luggage and passengers; that they employ one or two men where they ought to get a dozen; that trains are two hours and a-half late, and—

Heanor Petty Sessions (Convictions)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the sentence of two months' imprisonment passed on three youths at the Heanor Petty Sessions for breaking the window of an omnibus during the recent general strike; in view of the youthfulness of these offenders, their previous character, and the circumstances of the occasion, will he consider reviewing the case with a view to a remission of the sentence; and whether he will say if any circular has been issued by his Department as to the composition of benches of magistrates in the trial of such cases?

As two of the four defendants have appealed, my right hon. Friend cannot go into this case. No such circular as suggested has been issued.

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider that a bench of magistrates consisting of a coal-owner, a colliery manager, an ex-colliery manager and a colliery official is a fitting body to try two or three locked-out miners?

I cannot possibly discuss the constitution of a bench of magistrates. This is a very serious case, as my hon. Friend no doubt knows. An omnibus, containing school children, was stopped, stones were thrown at it, and the four people who were arrested cannot very well be described as youths, seeing that their ages are 17, 24, 23 and 31.

They were convicted by the magistrates. Two of them have appealed, and if the hon. Member is not satisfied with the decision given by the magistrates, there will be an opportunity to have the case reviewed on appeal.

I am not discussing the sentence; I only want to correct two errors in the reply. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman know that two of them are not 34, but 16 years of age, and is he further aware that the sentence is not in dispute, but the composition of the bench of magistrates to try cases of this kind?

Questions

Trade Facilities Act (Anglo-Russian Trade)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any record is kept of the business firms which, since 1921, have applied for the benefits of the Trade Facilities Acts in connection with British-Russian trade; and, if so, can he supply the names of the firms?

There is nothing I can add to the replies given to questions on this subject on the 7th July, 1924, and 12th May, 1925, of which I am sending the hon. Member copies.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the tremendous headway Germany is making in regard to all kinds of machinery supplied to Soviet Russia, and does he not think that if better facilities were given it would be a means of increasing the trade of this country?

That is quite different from the question on the Paper as to what requests have been made for loans.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the recent official statement that the Trade Facilities Acts were not extended to Russia because that country had a credit trade balance with this country which was available for the financing of Anglo-Russian trade, he is aware that the purchases of the Russian trading organisations in Great Britain, including exports, re-exports, banking, insurance, and shipping charges and goods purchased on the London market, but shipped direct to Russian ports, for the years 1920–25 amounted to £88,333,207, whereas Russian sales in this country for the same period amounted to only £70,788,366, leaving a balance of £17,544,841 in favour of Great Britain; and whether, in view of the facts, he can now see his way to extend the provisions of the Trade Facilities Acts to Anglo-Russian trade?

The hon. Member, no doubt, has in mind a statement made by the Secretary of the Department of Overseas Trade, on 1st March, in Committee of Supply. The statistics quoted by the hon. Member appear in an article in the "Soviet Union Monthly," a publication issued by the Soviet Union Trade Delegation in London. I am unable to express an opinion as to the accuracy of these calculations. The Customs returns of the United Kingdom relating to the years 1921–25 inclusive show, however, that the imports from the Soviet Union during that period exceeded the exports to the Union by £22,343,893. With regard to the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the statements made in this House from time to time on behalf of the Government, and more especially to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade on the 10th March last.

Then may I ask whether, as a fact, the figures used in the past by the Board of Trade on the balance of trade do not include any allowance at all for banking, insurance and shipping charges?

I am not able to say about that, but I do know that the figures quoted in the Soviet journal are on a totally different basis from the Customs figures, and for our purpose it is only on our own Customs figures that we can rely.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that we always look upon our figures with other countries as regards balancing or not in conjunction with services rendered for banking, insurance, shipping and so on, and if the Government base their arguments as to our trade with Russia on the balance of trade, will they not deal with the matter on the same basis?

That, I think, is quite a wrong assumption of the hon. Gentleman. The refusal to extend trade facilities to Russia is not on that basis. I think it is on an entirely different basis —on account of the Russian attitude to its own liabilities.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why in any circumstances we, as a capitalist State, should supply capital to Soviet Russia, which has destroyed capital in its own boundaries and is anxious to destroy capital in this country as well?

Open Spaces, Greater London

asked the Minister of Health what efforts are being made by his Department to secure open spaces and recreation grounds for the inhabitants of Greater London and for the districts immediately adjoining this area?

The initiative in this matter rests with the local authorities. In so far as loans for the acquisition of land are subject to the consent of his Department, my right hon. Friend is willing to consider applications sympathetically, but loans may be delayed in some cases by heavy rates and the present need for economy. I may add that my right hon. Friend has made a practice of urging local authorities to reserve land for open spates in their town planning schemes.

May I ask whether any other authorities show any signs of following the excellent lead of Ealing and Acton?

Montenegro (Vice-Consul's Residence)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department for what reason the residence of the Vice-Consul who was appointed for the district of Montenegro has been transferred from Cetinje to Gruz, Ragusa, which is not in Montenegro?

I have been asked to reply. The reason for the change is that from the British commercial and consular point of view, Gruz is of greater importance than Cetinje, and the general work can be done as well from Gruz as from Cetinje.

But did not the Vice-Consul's predecessor do very good work when he was resident at Cetinje?

As a matter of fact, there are very few consular or commercial duties at Cetinje, and the new post includes the whole of the Montenegrin district. Our consular representative at Gruz will be able to tour the outside districts.

London Theatres (Licensing Control)

asked the Home Secretary whether the Government are considering or will consider the removal of the control of London theatres from the Lord Chamberlain's Office to the London County Council?

Representations have been made to the Home Secretary as to the transfer of the licensing of theatres in the Central London area from the Lord Chamberlain to the London County Council, and my right hon. Friend has replied to these representations that the Government as at present advised are not prepared to support the transfer.

Does not the Government think that this great industry is better under the control, not of a Court Department, but of of a democratically appointed council?

There is a great deal to be said both for and against this position which has been taken up, and I am sure it is not advisable to discuss this by way of question and answer.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the representations now being made to him from certain quarters as to the transfer of the Lord Chamberlain's control of the London theatres to the London County Council, he will, before arriving at any decision, take into consideration the objection of the theatres to any such change and their confidence in the administration of the Lord Chamberlain?

I would refer to the answer I have given to the previous question. My right hon. Friend, in dealing with this subject, has regard to all the relevant considerations, including the views of the theatrical managers.

Pillion Riding (Accidents)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can give figures showing the number of accidents, fatal or otherwise, due to pillion riding on motor cycles during the last three years?

I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave on the 8th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall), of which I am sending him a copy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that much of this pillion riding is due to the heavy tax on side cars, and will he represent that to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

British Empire Exhibition (Entertainments Duty)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has received the full amount of the Entertainments Duty on account of the British Empire Exhibition?

United States (British Debt)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the annual charges, etc., per cent. in buying of dollars to pay our external loan to the United States of America?

The dollars required to pay the service of the British debt to the Government of the United States are purchased in the foreign exchange market in the usual way, and (apart from the normal exchange commission) no annual charges are incurred.

Coal Trade Dispute

Royal Commission (Report)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the loss incurred upon the production and sale of the Report of the Royal Commission on Coal?

Present Situation

I proposed to put a Private Notice question to the Prime Minister regarding the coal situation as it is left by the breakdown yesterday afternoon. As, however, the right hon. Gentleman is not present, I propose to put the question tomorrow afternoon if that is convenient.

Questions

Kenya (Direct Taxation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the only direct tax on non-natives in Kenya Colony is the uniform poll tax of 30s., which in 1923 produced about £25,000 a year as against the £575,000 paid by the natives in direct taxes, and that the services given in exchange benefit the non-native much more than the native, the recommendations of the East Africa Commission with regard to the need of imposing a larger amount of direct taxation on the white settlers will be carried out?

I am awaiting the views of the Governor of Kenya regarding the recommendations to which the hon. Member refers. It should, however, be remem- bered that the receipts from so called direct taxation represent no more than approximately one-quarter of the total revenue, and that, while the greater portion of direct taxation is borne by the native, the greater portion of the indirect taxation falls on the non-native.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea when those views will be received?

London Bridges

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a special committee of qualified persons to consider and report as rapidly as possible on the bridges over the Thames in the London area and the approaches thereto, as to what additional bridges, if any, are required, or will shortly be required, and of these which, in the opinion of the committee is of the greatest urgency and should first be proceeded with; and, pending the Report of such committee, whether representations can be made to the Corporation of the City of London to defer further action with regard to the proposed St. Paul's Bridge?

I do not know whether my hon. Friend has received a letter from the Prime Minister saying he was unable to be present and asking him to postpone this question for a week? A letter was written to him. I am afraid it has not reached him.

No, I have not received the letter. But does the right hon. Gentleman realise the importance of the question being answered today, in view of the fact that the Corporation of the City of London are meeting tomorrow to deal with the question of St. Paul's Bridge, which is a vital point in the question which I have addressed to the Prime Minister?

Mauritius (Civil Service Appointments)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received protests signed by all the civil servants of Mauritius against the appointment of the two sons of the Chief Judge to positions in the Civil Service, and to the granting of a scholarship to a third son without any examination; and, if so, what action is he taking in the matter?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Allied Troops, Rhineland

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the understandings reached at Geneva as to the numbers of British and ex-Allied troops in the Rhine zone, action will be taken to implement this agreement?

Although it is not clear to what occasion the Noble Lord's question refers, I am not aware that any understandings have ever been reached at Geneva as to the numbers of British and ex-Allied troops in the Rhineland. The policy of the ex-Allied Governments in this respect remains as set forth in the Note addressed by the Ambassadors' Conference to the German Ambassador at Paris on the 14th November, 1925, a copy of which has been laid before Parliament (Cd. 2527).

Death After Child-Birth, Kingston

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been directed to the death of Mrs. Lily Maxwell from septicemia following child-birth and to the comments of the Kingston coroner relating thereto, and whether he proposes to hold an inquiry into the case?

My right hon. Friend's attention has already been called to this case, and an inquiry is now being made by one of the medical officers of his Department.

Will this inquiry be confined to this particular case, or will it include a survey of the whole question of the means of the prevention of this disease?

I think it is an inquiry simply into this one case, which as the hon. Gentleman knows, has rather special circumstances. [An HON. MEMBER: "There have been six deaths!"] We are confining ourselves, at any rate for the moment, to inquiry into this particular case.

Bills Reported

Guildford Corporation Bill,

Reported, with Amendments [Title amended], from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Halifax Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,

Amendments to,

Chatham and District Water Bill [ Lords ],

Darwen Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Messrs. Hoare Trustees Bill [ Lords ],

Serle Street and Cook's Court Improvement Bill [ Lords ],without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled," An Act to confer further powers upon the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Chorley in connection with their several undertakings; to consolidate the rates of the borough; and to make better provision for the health, local government, and finance of the borough; and for other purposes." [Chorley Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

CHORLEY CORPORATION BILL [Lords]

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Standing Orders

Resolution reported from the Select Committee:

"That, in the case of the Eastbou ne Corporation Bill [ Lords ],Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit"

Resolution agreed to.

Legitimacy Bill [Lords]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 119.]

Orders of the Day

Finance Bill

Further considered in Committee. [ Progress, 8th June. ]

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 11.—(Customs Duty on Wrapping Paper.)

The following Amendments stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. HURST and other HON. MEMBERS:

In page 7, line 41, at the beginning, to insert the words

"Subject to the exclusion from the operation of this Section of all packing or wrapping paper imported for the sole purpose of the manufacture in Great Britain or Northern Ireland of carpets, matting, twine, boxes, and bags."

and in the name of Mr. MACKENZIE LIVINGSTONE and other HON. MEMBERS:

In page 7, line 41, to leave out Subsection (1).

The first Amendment on the Order Paper is out of place. It ought to be drafted so as to come as an Amendment to Sub-section (2). The second Amendment practically destroys the Clause, and, according to precedent, cannot now be called.

I beg to move, in page 7, line 41, to leave out the words" five years" and to insert instead thereof the words" one year."

Before discussion takes place might I ask you, Mr. Hope, to make it clear to the Committee, as you have done on previous occasions, as to whether there shall first be a general discussion on this new duty—

A general discussion on the merits of the case, to be followed, as before, by the Vote, on the particular issue?

I am inclined to think it would be for the general convenience, as I have already said, if we have a general discussion early on a specific Amendment, but we cannot then have another discussion on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I think the practice of late years, to allow a general discussion on the first Amendment, has generally met the convenience of the Committee.

On the Motion," That the Clause stand part of the Bill," you will allow any relevant remarks in regard to what may have taken place?

Oh, yes. I would not rule any relevant remarks out of order. But the same cannot be taken twice. Points arising out of the discussion on the Amendments would be in order.

I did not anticipate intervening in the Debate at this stage, but the procedure makes it necessary for me to do so. I think hon. Members on this side will agree that, of all the proposals for safeguarding made by the Government, none has been based on such insecure foundations as is this case in respect of paper. Anyone who has read the Report of the Committee appointed to examine the case of paper must be struck with the inconsistencies which are manifest throughout it. To use an old term, one could drive a coach-and-six through most of the arguments they put forward in support of their contention. I want to utter a protest against the way in which Committees of this kind conduct their business. Here is a case of an industry seeking to get Protection, which employs something like 7,000 people in this country, whereas the commodity for which a protective duty is desired is used practically as a raw material by industries employing more than 300,000 people. Yet when we come to examine the proceedings of the Committee, we find there has been very little opportunity for those who will be so largely affected in their businesses by the increased costs inherent in this tariff proposal to put their views to the Committee and get them properly considered. Moreover, it seems to me that the procedure laid down by the Government for inquiries in regard to safeguarding proposals has not been very closely followed in this case—perhaps it may have been technically followed. When one examines some of the statements made by the applicants for the duly, one begins to wonder whether there was a case to be considered at all. It seems to me that on the initial application to the Board of Trade for an inquiry to be held, deliberate misrepresentation was made by the applicants for a tariff. The Report itself says:

I notice a curious method of dealing with the case as between paper manufacturers and paper bag manufacturers. Originally, the British Paper Bag Federation did not apply for a duty at all, but subsequently they agreed—at least, that part of the Paper Bag Federation which was ever consulted agreed—to make an application for the duty on certain conditions. The first was, that if the duty were to apply to manufactured articles, which would include paper bags, they would support the application for the duty, but if the duty were not to apply to paper bags, they were going to oppose it. In spite of an application being put forward under such conditions, the Committee regarded it as a legitimate application, and proceeded to make a Report upon it. If it is possible to consider applications put forward on that basis—in this case the paper-bag manufacturers, using paper as a raw material, were to be considered as applicants if they were to get the finished products also taxed— what is to be said for the position of all other industries which are going to be affected by a tax on paper which they use as a raw material? If paper bags are to be included in this duty to meet the case of the paper-bag manufacturers, there is a case for all other users of paper as a raw material to have their final products also included in any tariff proposal put to the House. I imagine that many hon. Members opposite will say that is an equitable proposal, and will probably support it on the ground that it is a stepping stone to a much wider alteration of our fiscal system; but, then, what becomes of the Government's pledge to the country at the last Election that they were not going to use safeguarding to provide a back-door entry for a general system of Protection?

Another complaint I have to make relates to the different values placed by this Committee on evidence from different sources. We understand that the Committee refused to consider seriously the evidence of a foreign witness against the duty because he was supported by foreign manufacturers deeply interested in the result. [HON. MEMBERS:" Hear, hear!"] But does not the same consideration apply in the case of the evidence from British manufacturers? They are also deeply interested in the result. Are we as a country not interested in putting our views before those in other countries who are responsible for introducing fiscal changes? Is not our Diplomatic and Consular Service used again and again to make representations to foreign Governments about the imposition of tariffs, or about matters bearing on commercial treaties between countries? Of course they are. If the evidence put forward by foreign manufacturers is not to be regarded as being good evidence because of their being interested, while at the same time the Committee accept everything the British manufacturer likes to put before them, without having had any real opportunity of checking it, as Gospel truth, we shall never arrive at a proper basis for making these important changes.

Another point I wish to submit is that the duties recommended by the Committee are not by any means justified by the evidence—at least, what we know of the evidence submitted to them. Take for example, the proposed duty on Kraft paper. Kraft paper has never been made in this country in very large quantities. The reason for asking for a duty on it, which was put before the Committee, was, I understand, that imported Kraft paper is competing unfairly with our ordinary brown wrapping paper. But anyone who has any experience of the use of these papers in business knows quite well that the imported Kraft paper does not, in fact, compete with the brown wrapping paper. They are quite different types of paper. If it is said in answer to that, that this light-weight and very tough kraft paper imported from abroad is replacing some of the older and coarser brown paper, surely that is all to the good and to the benefit of industry generally. As well argue that we ought to put a tax upon bowler hats because they are replacing top hats as to say that we ought to tax kraft paper because, through its superior advantages, it is beginning to replace the heavier and coarser kinds of brown wrapping.

The hon. Member does not suggest that kraft paper could be made equally well in this country and give employment to British workers!

Perhaps I may be allowed to say something on that.

It is absolutely essential in dealing with kraft paper as a wrapping paper to have reference to materials of equal weight and size. In this matter I am obliged to follow the usual practice of producing samples. Here I have in my hand a sample of the best Norwegian kraft paper, 16 lbs. to the ream, and I ask hon. Members to test it as compared with the best English kraft paper of the same size and weight per ream. If they test these two papers, they will find it is difficult to tear the Norwegian paper across the grain, whereas the English made paper can be torn easily both ways. On this subject I am speaking for those who are using a tremendous, quantity of this kind of paper, and I do not suppose that there is a single firm in this country at the present time using a greater quantity of this kind of paper than the people with whom I am connected. There is no question that the imported kraft paper is of a much better quality, and whilst the English kraft paper is a substitute for it, it is not an efficient substitute, and it is this kind of superior paper that you are trying to exclude by a duty.

Does the hon. Member not think that the effect of this tax will be that this Norwegian firm will set up a paper mill in this country?

I am afraid my answer to that question must be that we had better wait and see. I admit that I have got a scanty knowledge of the productive side, and I am more concerned with the use of paper. I am not, however, anticipating that with all their natural advantages for the production of paper of this superfine quality in an industry which is giving superior conditions of employment to the workers in Scandinavia, they are not at all likely to come over here to set up paper mills. One of the main reasons which was put forward as a cause for imposing a safeguarding duty was that of unfair competition causing a decline. On this point I notice that the output of the whole industry has been particularly steady, and there is no reason at all in the output of the home industry to justify an argument of that kind. In 1922 the output was 94,970 tons; in 1923, 97,519 tons, and in 1924, 95,910 tons. It is true that the number of mills working decreased from 106 in 1922 to 93 in 1924, but the significant fact is that in 1923 we were producing a larger output than a larger number of mills were doing in 1922.

Another point I wish to make is that these duties are going seriously to affect the export trade of some people who use very extensively the papers which are covered by this duty. There is a very considerable trade with America in gummed strip paper, and if this duty is put on it will seriously interfere with the export trade.

There are many such instances. Take, for example, the McKenna Duties. I know the usual argument that because there has been a slight increase in the export trade, duties have been effective, but in the case of motor cars, for example, it is quite clear that the imposition of a duty seriously retarded the growth of the export trade. [ Interruption. ] Well, as a matter of fact there was a much larger relative increase in export during the period of fiscal freedom than during the time the duties have been operative. However, I am quite aware that the hon. Baronet will continue to be impervious to any scientific reasonable or logical arguments which hon. Members on this side can produce.

Another question which has always been given as a reason for granting safeguarding duties is as to whether there is or is not serious unemployment in the industry. I have examined some of the most recent figures in regard to the paper-making industry, and, as a matter of fact, I find that employment is increasing. The figures of unemployment show that in April, 1926, there was an increase of 4 per cent. as compared with October, 1924.

But the figures of employment in the industries at the end of September, 1925, also showed an increase of nearly 2 per cent. as compared with October, 1924. Therefore, in regard to this industry there is absolutely no case of serious unemployment caused by unfair competition with imports from abroad, and in this case neither of the two main grounds for imposing safeguard duties is shown to be existent.

Perhaps it would be just as well for hon. Members to think over who the people were who gave support to the imposition of this duty before the Committee. Take, for example, the dividends paid by such firms as Spicers' during the last few years. It is quite conceivable that people who are out to make profit at that rate out of the paper industry are always ready to use the State to give them a false protection of this character to enhance their profits. Indeed, it is very significant to observe many hon. Members opposite, who are always ready with their outbursts against anything of the nature of Socialism, are always ready on any conceivable pretext to come to the State and take any bounty they can get and protection of any sort provided it is not for the benefit of the general community, but for the enhancing of private profit. On all these grounds, and perhaps on others which will be given by individual Members later, I move this Amendment.

The hon. Gentleman has opposed this duty in a speech of great eloquence, but not, I think, fully supported by facts. He has, however, advanced one rather novel suggestion, and that is that, because from time to time His Majesty's Government make diplomatic representations, through their Ministers to foreign Courts, in regard to tariffs, that should, for some reason which is not clear to me, prevent us from putting on duties where it is necessary in the interests of our own industry. That has not been the policy of this country in the past, nor has it been the policy, as far as I am aware, of any of those countries to whom representations have been made from time to time. [HON. MEMBERS: "He did not say that!"] There is one difference—

What I was referring to was the fact that the Committee, in their Report, state that they gave no credence at all to, and would not hear, evidence from a foreign source, and I said that that was contrary to the spirit of our relationships with those countries.

That is a most remarkable statement. In weighing the value of the evidence, the Committee thought that it might, perhaps, be wise to discount the evidence of a gentleman who came forward in the interest of a foreign manufacturer, and as the representative of a foreign manufacturer. We have had a great deal of criticism from the other side as to prejudice and bias, but I am still surprised that from that quarter we should have this criticism when the Committee suggest that one may have to regard with rather closer scrutiny evidence given, not with regard to facts as to wages and so on, but with regard to quality and so forth, and with regard to the competence and efficiency of a British industry, when that evidence is advanced by an agent of foreign manufacturers, whose object, quite naturally and honestly, is to discredit—as it is the object of the hon. Gentleman, apparently, to discredit—the product of British factories. There is one difference between our course and that of other countries. We make representations from time to time through diplomatic channels about tariffs, but it appears to be only in this country that the case can be presented on behalf of a foreign country by the official Opposition in the House of Commons. [ Interruption. ] I do not think it is clever; it is only true. [ Interruption. ]

I should now like to proceed to deal with, perhaps, greater particularity than the hon. Gentleman did, with the actual facts of this case. I may say that all the facts which have emerged in the few months' delay which has taken place since the Committee made its Report and the Resolutions were originally tabled, so far from detracting from the force and validity of the Committee's recommendations, have led to the conviction that those recommendations are sound and well founded. The hon. Gentleman said that this industry was not an industry of importance. It is an industry which employs, even to-day, 7,000 or 8,000 people. It has employed more, and it certainly can employ a great many more people; and in these days, when unemployment is still rife, even a few thousand more or less in what, after all, is an old-established basic industry in this country, is a matter which deserves every consideration. I prefer a constructive proposal for assisting employment to a destructive proposal for reducing it. The hon. Gentleman said that this industry has not been hard hit—[ Interruption. ] I think a Debate is more conveniently conducted if it is not a conversazione.

The right hon. Gentleman can make any comments when he speaks—

I am sure he is, and I am sure his comments will be characteristic. The hon. Gentleman said that this industry has not been hard hit. What are the facts? A quarter of the industry has gone out of production in the last five years. The whole production, which, in 1913, before the War, was something like 260,000 tons, had fallen in 1924 to 180,000 tons. The hon. Gentleman referred to one particular firm which made a profit. I should like to know whether that profit was not made on other branches of the industry, with which we are not concerned to-day. Does the hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that all the wrapping paper manufacturers are making large profits at the present time? If so, why are they closing down factories? You do not close down factories when you are making large profits.

They are going to reopen them because of the success of a Tory Government. There is no doubt that the production of this industry is enormously reduced. The hon. Gentleman might suggest that that is quite normal, and that imports have fallen too; but it is not so. Before the War, the imports were 200,000 tons. In 1924 they were 210,000 tons, in 1925, 222,000 tons, and in the first four months of this year the importation has been at the rate of over 260,000 tons a year. What does that mean? It means that imports have actually increased in volume, and that the whole of any reduction that there may have been in the aggregate of the trade has been entirely at the cost of the home producer.

Really, I am going to deal with all the hon. Gentleman's points in turn; they are far too good to leave unanswered. Then he said that this competition is coming from places where the competition is fair, where wages are better than in this country. We may leave out Norway, where I make the concession that conditions are, perhaps, equal in the matter of wages, but not in the matter of hours; and, moreover, the importation from Norway is a comparatively small percentage. The big competition, two-thirds of it, comes to-day from Sweden and Germany. In Sweden the wages are 20 to 25 per cent. below the British rate, and in Germany the wages are 40 per cent. below the British rate; and it is rather interesting to observe that, in the first four months of this year, the proportion of imports coming from Germany, where the wages admittedly are the lowest, has doubled.

The proportion when the Committee made their Report was 21 per cent., and now the German imports have gone up from 4,000 to 7,000 tons a month, so that one may say that the proportion of importation from Germany is now between 30 and 40 per cent of the total. The proportion from Sweden is 34 per cent. of the total. Therefore, I think that these figures completely justify my statement that more than two-thirds of the competition comes from countries where wages are inferior and hours are longer.

4.0 P.M.

Then the hon. Gentleman said that employment has not suffered. I think what he has done has been to take a perfectly general figure of employment over the paper trade as a whole. If he would consult, as we have consulted, the trade unions of this particular trade, he would find that employment is very bad. I have since the Report made inquiries of these particular unions, who, after all, are the people who keep the records, who have to pay the trade union benefits, who are trying to find jobs for their members, and who are the people who know where the shoe pinches, and they say that there are 15 per cent. permanently out of work in this industry and 50 per cent. on short time. That is not a figure which ought to be treated as an average figure, even in the worst time of trade depression, and it is not a figure with which anybody can be satisfied. So serious is the condition in this section of the trade that the unions themselves said that they were satisfied that the employers could not afford to pay the last award of the Industrial Court. You could not have much stronger evidence than that. In those circumstances, there is surely a strong case made out in favour of the duty.

The only objections that could be taken, I think, are two. First of all, one must consider whether it is a fact, as the hon. Gentleman said, that the British trade is incapable of producing the volume of paper and the kind of paper which is required in this country, and the other question, which I agree one has to consider is: Are you going to cause disadvantages to other trades which would countervail the advantage you would obtain in this trade? The view of the Committee on the first point was very plain. They said: Given a reasonable safeguard, there is no reason why this industry should not produce 120,000 tons more paper in this country than it is producing at the present time. That is not theoretical. We have the precedents of the cases we were discussing yesterday, in which five years ago all the same arguments were advanced. We were told then that it would be impossible to establish those industries and impossible to get production. Yet the industries have been established, and production is going forward. Already, in this case, I am informed that kraft has been made and can be made and will be made in this country in the future. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not protect it?"] I am protecting it. I propose to protect it.

The right hon. Gentleman instanced the case of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Does he mean, when he says five years in this Bill, to make it 15 years?

The hon. and gallant Member had better wait and see. If his party comes back to power, I have no doubt it will be reviewed in a hostile sense. I am not so sure, if one section of his party comes back to power that it will be quite so hostile.

I hope this line of argument, which I have described as "tacking," will not be pursued.

I must apologise, but I was tempted. What is more relevant than what may happen five years hence is the facts as they are today, and there are companies to-day making kraft. I heard the other day of one company which to-day has a capacity for making something like 12,000 tons a year, and which is going to extend its plant if this duty goes through for this particular purpose. It says it is already receiving orders which it did not receive before from British firms in anticipation of the duty going through. I have been informed that another company have all their arrangements ready to develop on a very large scale the manufacture of kraft in this country. They have got their land for factories, they are arranging for their finance, and they propose to manufacture not only kraft from pulp, but to bring the wood over here to manufacture pulp here, and to manufacture that pulp into kraft paper. They propose to start on a scale of 20,000 tons a year. When you have instances of such efforts ready to be made, and when you have experience that you have had in other industries in the past, would it not be madness to accept a theoretical argument that this development will not take place?

The only other argument is whether you will seriously damage any other industry. That certainly it is Very important to consider. The Committee considered the matter, and came to the conclusion—they assumed a drawback is impracticable, and a drawback has not been given except in through transport and goods which do not change their character—that the safeguarding of this industry would not hurt other industries. There was evidence given on this question by an observer on this side of the House yesterday of the effects of the duties in the case of the key industries. He said that in all his experience of the key industries, he had never heard it said that other industries had been adversely affected. The Committee said that, even assuming that some disadvantage might accrue and that every fear which anxiety could invent was realised, it was certain that any damage which could conceivably be done to the export trade in two or three of these industries would be as nothing to the damage which would be suffered by the extra unemployment which would come to the paper industry itself if you refused to give a duty of this kind.

We have gone as far as we can to meet the case of these other industries which are producing articles made entirely of paper or with a small addition not exceeding in value the amount of the duty. There we are proposing the same rate of duty as we are proposing for paper. We are giving them not only the equivalent protection, but a slight turn in their favour as well. We have considered at the same time very carefully what should be the weight of the paper which is subject to duty. Since the Committee met we have been in consultation with many industries, and the limits of weight, 10 lbs. and 90 lbs., are, I think, agreed generally to be fair and reasonable. After all, the biggest users of imported paper are found not on the side of hon. Gentlemen who are opposing the duty, but in support of the Committee. The paper-bag industry uses 60,000 tons of imported paper, and their Federation supports the duty. I am aware of the story that has gone about that this Federation does not represent its members. I know that is said. A gentleman came along and said, "I represent the Federation. This Presi- dent who comes along and gives evidence does not." What happens? That President who gave evidence came up for re-election by the Federation, and he was unanimously re-elected. The Federation endorsed all the action he had taken before the Committee and in his representations to the Board of Trade. The people who want to make representations to the contrary, therefore, had better go and make them to the representative body of their own industry and not come to the House of Commons.

Certainly. Surely that makes the duty complete. You cannot have it both ways. The argument of the hon. Member for Hills-borough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) was that this proposal is going to do serious harm to the paper-bag industry.

They are making a very handsome profit at the present time. They use an infinitesimal proportion of paper to works costs. A great deal of the paper which they use is not wrapping paper at all, and, of the wrapping paper which they do use, 80 per cent. is already British.

That seems to me a wholly irrelevant observation, and I should not be in order in dealing with something which is not the subject of the duty. I will leave the hon. Gentleman to attempt to bring himself in order if he wants to discuss newspapers. I propose to confine myself to those kinds of paper upon which we propose a duty. Then we have heard something about prices. I should not have been surprised if prices had risen recently, not because of the duty, but because of two other things. First of all, the price of raw material in the world has increased recently. The price of pulp has gone up. Secondly, owing to the shortage of coal, there has been a great increase in cost to those firms who are using oil in place of coal. In spite of these facts, manufacturers' prices to-day are practically in every case exactly what they were before the duty was imposed. If the hon. Gentleman is anxious, as I am, to secure an economic fall in prices by a fall in the cost of production, he will give this assistance to the industry and assure it of that volume of production which is the greatest security for cheapness of production.

I could pray in aid all the arguments which were advanced yesterday, not theoretical arguments, but arguments founded on the history of the development of those industries which we were then discussing—

I should like to deal, first, with the earlier part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, in which he threw a patriotic glamour over the case he was going to present to the Committee. It may be briefly described as the Zimmermann argument. In that connection I want to refer to the speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade last night. We all admire the hon. Gentleman. He is a frank, straightforward man, who says what he thinks. He told us he had presented the case for Protection to the House, and that he had a letter which said the case he was bringing was very harmful to the trade of the country and the interests of that trade. When he got the letter he felt chilled, but he was comforted when he read the signature, which was Zimmermann. That, I think, is the most illuminating speech which has been made on the Protectionist side in the whole of the Debate. The hon. Gentleman rejects arguments about exports and imports, foreign trade, percentages, the consumer, or prices, and he has one frank reply—Zimmermann. He belongs to a party which is trying to force Zimmermann to send ultimately £30,000,000 of goods every year to this country. He belongs to a party which has just negotiated, rightly, a trade treaty with Zimmermann for the purpose of enlarging and increasing our trade abroad. He belongs to a party which has just promised to introduce Zimmermann to the League of Nations and he bases the whole case, as indeed the whole Protectionist case is really based, upon what is really an unworthy form of alien prejudice.

Now we come to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade to-day, which contained a pale and ineffective echo of the famous Zimmermann argument. He says, as regards the allied trades who suffer, "If the paper bag people, or any other people, come along and point out that by putting a duty on paper we are going to injure their trade, I have a simple remedy for that. I put a duty on their product as well." Then what becomes of the Prime Minister's pledge, that no one should have a duty undess they presented their case to the Committee and the Committee approved it? Where in the terms of reference to this Committee of Inquiry is there anything about paper bags? There is not a word about paper bags. Once you start on the slippery path of Protection you have to go the whole way, and when the right hon. Gentleman is injuring people by putting a duty on their raw material, he can only compensate them by putting a duty on their finished product. Therefore he departs entirely from the pledges publicly given to the House and to the country by the Prime Minister and the party opposite at the last election, and proceeds, regardless of those pledges, regardless even of these Committees, poor apparatus as they may be, to distribute little duties here and there off his own bat in order to compensate them for the undoubted damage he himself admits he is doing to them.

When we come to the actual paper manufacturers, anyone who has read the Report of this Committee will agree that never have more faltering answers been given to the inquiries that were addressed to the Committee. They were asked the famous seven questions: Is the industry of substantial importance; are the retained imports abnormal; are prices lower; is employment being affected, and is there unfair competition due to depreciated currency and labour conditions, and in almost every case they have in effect given a negative answer. The most they are prepared to say is that a tentative experiment should be made in the way of granting duties. The right hon. Gentleman interprets that tentative experiment as in fact a fifteen years', or perhaps a permanent duty in the terms of the Bill. He admitted that the five years here may be, and will be, if he has the power, turned into another 10 years, and probably a permanent duty later on. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That may be so, and of course hon. Members opposite wish it might be so. If they stand by the pledge that the Government would be bound by the recommendations of the Committee, they cannot possibly ask the Government to outrage the recommendations of the Committee as they are doing in the terms of this duty. The point has been so amply dealt with by the ex-Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade that it is not necessary to go over it again. When we find only a 5 per cent. increase of retained imports, even the hon. Baronet the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) will admit that it can only by a stretch of the meaning of language, be described as an abnormal increase. That is their answer to the first question. We come to the question of wages, and we find that in the countries which are our most important competitors the Committee itself is not prepared to say the wage and labour conditions are worse than in this country. When it comes to the other users, he dismisses the whole case as if there was nothing in it at all.

Let it be remembered that people who use paper as a raw material—and probably no material enters into so many trades—have no locus before the Committee. They have no power to come before the Committee and say, "You are going to injure us, and to put just that additional expense on to our products which will make a profit impossible." Their case has to be dealt with by a few obiter dicta of the President of the Board of Trade, who has always approached the subject entirely from his own Protectionist standpoint. Despite that, they have a case which requires a good answer. For instance, here is a firm who make chocolate. There is an imported chocolate which comes in in paper. They have to pay if they wrap their chocolates up in paper in this country, and therefore a distinct advantage is being given to their competitors who are sending in chocolates already wrapped in paper, because the paper in that case will be under 15 per cent. and therefore will enter the country free of duty. As against the 6,000 or 7,000 people who are engaged in the making of paper in this country, there are hundreds of thousands of people engaged in using paper, and it is really beside the point to say this is a small thing. Everyone who is in business knows that it is in small expenses that the difference comes in between profit and loss, between employment and unemployment. These people have had no opportunity of presenting their case before the Committee, and their case is a serious one which demands the attention and the consideration of the House, and indeed the rejection of the Clause.

We have gone a long way from the early Debates in this Parliament, because at the General Election the principle which is constantly, and no doubt with conviction, put forward from the benches opposite was emphatically rejected by the country. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to try again, let him try again and see what the country will say.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that in every single Election address of Members of this side we advocated safeguarding?

The pledge was that we would have no general tariff. The pledge was that a thing must enter by the straight and narrow gate, or it would not get a duty. In this case, as in many others, that pledge has been abandoned, and duties have been proposed for articles which have not satisfied the conditions of the pledge, and the proposal of this duty is a breach of a pledge solemnly given to the House and the country.

I do not take any exception to the general validity of the argument which has been put forward by the President of the Board of Trade, but frankly I am uneasy with regard to the operation of some of the details of this Clause. It proposes to impose for a period of five years a duty of 16⅔ per cent. —2d. in the Is.—on wrapping paper. It is, of course, proposed in the interest of English manufactured paper, and I take not the smallest objection to this much needed help to English manufacturers of paper. To that extent I am entirely in line and sympathy with the argument which has been advanced by my right hon. Friend. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about chocolate?"] I am coming to that. I have said most distinctly that I take no exception to the general validity of the argument adduced by my right hon. Friend. But I was proceeding to argue that if it is in the interests of the paper manufacturers—and I do not dispute it—desirable or necessary to impose this duty, I think we are bound to see that the imposition of the duty does not operate to the more than proportionate detriment of other English manufacturers. What I want to know is whether my right hon. Friend is prepared to make certain concessions for which I shall have to ask. As a matter of fact, wrapping paper is a raw material of very great importance in about 20 other manufacturing interests. Those interests employ about 400,000 workers, while the wrapping paper industry employs about 7,000 workers. Several points seem to me to emerge. In the first place, I find it difficult to understand why wrapping paper in particular has been singled out for this duty, and why, if it is desirable to protect wrapping paper, a similar import duty should not be imposed on other kinds of paper imported from abroad.

I am more particularly interested in this question for a reason which has been already accurately surmised by hon. Members opposite. As a matter of fact, as they have guessed, a very large and important body of my own constituents are very directly affected by the proposals in this Clause. The great Imperial city which I have the honour to represent is, as hon. Members opposite are obviously aware, one of the most important, perhaps the most important, centre of the chocolate and sweetmeat industry. I find on referring to the Report of the Committee that the sweetmeat trade is employing no fewer than 84,000 persons and that wages are paid to the employés in this trade—I am not speaking now of York alone, but of the trade as a whole— to the extent of about £10,000,000 a year. That cannot be described as an unimportant trade or an unimportant interest. The point is emphasised in the Report of the Board of Trade Committee in paragraph 38:

I will if the right hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so, but I only read that portion which seemed to support my case. I will leave it to others who have the other case to make out to read more. The interests on whose behalf I am attempting to speak this afternoon are affected by this Clause, as it stands, in two ways. I would ask the Committee to observe how the Clause will work. In the first place, if the Clause stands as it is at present, it will, in effect, give a considerable bounty to the foreign importer of chocolates into this country. I ask the Committee to study the words of sub-section (2):

When we turn from chocolate to sugar confectionery as a whole, we find that there was imported last year 81,000 cwts. to the value of £401,980. The whole of this sugar confection and chocolate would come in under this Clause, as at present drafted, duty free as regards the packing paper in which they are enclosed. In other words, the Sub-section, though not designed for the purpose, would, in effect, give a bounty to the foreign manufacturer in competition with the manufacturer in this country. I shall be told that packing paper represents a very negligible cost in the total cost of chocolate manufacture. Is it quite so negligible? I have no personal or technical knowledge of the trade, but I am advised that the cost of packing paper is from 2 per cent. to 15 per cent. of the total cost of the manufactured article as delivered to the shopkeeper.

Having dealt with the imports of chocolates into this country, I will turn to the exports of chocolates manufactured in this country. These exports, as the Board of Trade Committee in their Report have made clear, are not unimportant. I have already quoted the part of the Report which draws attention to the important section of the trade which is concerned in exports. Last year over 51,000 cwts. of English-made chocolates were exported, amounting in value to £585,715, while of sugar confectionery the exports amounted to 148,664 cwts., of a value of £769,232. These exports will, if Subsection (2) is allowed to stand as at present, have to carry the burden of the increased coat of packing paper, if an increased cost does result from the imposition of this duty, and will have to compete with foreign products in foreign and neutral markets, which are not subject to this duty.

If the Committee assent to Clause 11, they will, I am afraid, run the serious risk of adding to the cost of production of all those, whether manufacturers or distributors, in this country who use wrapping or packing paper. Those on whose behalf I am attempting to put this case are willing, as I understand their wishes to assent to this duty and to run the risk, but only on the condition that they are not penalised by the exceptions which it is proposed to make in this duty. I put it very strongly that it is not fair in the interests of a very important manufacture in my constituency, and a not unimportant national manufacture, to ask them to pay more for their own wrapping paper and at the same time to compel them to submit to the competition of continental competitors whose wrapping paper is by this Clause specifically exempted from the duty to which the English manufacturers are to be exposed.

There are two possible remedies. The first remedy, obviously, is to abolish the exception contained in Sub-section (2), that is to say, to withdraw the bounty which under that Sub-section it is in effect proposed to give to the foreign producer in competition with our own producers in this country. That would meet the case of the imported chocolate. In regard to the export of chocolates, it seems to me that there is no remedy—that was at once perceived by the Board of Trade Committee—except to grant a rebate or drawback to the English exporter who is in competition with foreign manufacturers who are not subject to the proposed duty. This is an exceedingly serious matter to a very considerable body of English manufacturers and traders. The matter was bad enough under the original proposals of the Board of Trade Committee, which were quoted by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). He referred to the 15 per cent. exception. That was in the original proposals of the Committee. They said:

The very lucid and able speech just delivered by the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) is an illustration of the essential vice of this method of procedure. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech—and I congratulate him on the skill with which he presented his case—tried to make out a case in favour of protecting a particular industry. On the face of it, it was a strong case, but he did not take into account the effect of these duties on other industries, much more important and employing far more hands than those engaged in the manufacture of the original article. The hon. Member for York has pointed out the direct effect on another industry, and when the Government initiated this new method of procedure under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, I pointed out that this is exactly what would happen. It was not the purpose of that Act. I am not defending the principles of that Act, nor am I criticising them. All I desire to point out is that the method of the Government is a complete departure from the purpose of that Act. What was the purpose of that Act? It was assumed, owing to the abnormal wav conditions in Europe, owing to the breakdown of the exchanges, that there was a possibility of countries whose currencies were debased dumping goods here at very much under cost price; that they would take advantage of their debased currencies in order to do so, and it was felt by the House that there should be some special protection, limited to these abnormal conditions.

For instance, in Germany there was a regular deluge of currency. They created money, and there was a possibility that on that deluge of currency we should have a flood of goods coming here against which no industry could compete, and the Safeguarding of Industries Act was to deal with the apprehension which was felt by practically everybody. It did not quite happen. It is true that France has profited by inflation, but Germany has not. So far from Germany having profited by inflation, it has lost considerably by it, because Germany has been deprived of the power of purchasing the raw material which is essential for the manufacture of those products which compete with our own, and whereas we have 80 per cent. of our pre-War exports, Germany has never got back much beyond 50 per cent. We all knew that in the long run these competitive countries would suffer very severely from the fact that they had indulged in this kind of very vicious practice. But that is not the procedure of the Government now.

The case made out by the President of the Board of Trade is one in which you protect any industry which can prove that its competitors in any other country are paying lower wages than are paid in this country. Can he name any industry of which that cannot be said? It is one of the advantages of this Free Trade country that we can pay better wages than any other country in Europe. If you go to the textile trades, the iron and steel trades, or to ship building, to any particular trade, you will find that the level of wages is higher in this country than in any European country, and the result is that you could make a case for almost any commodity once you introduce that principle. That was not the object of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. The object of that Act was to safeguard this country against the abnormal conditions created by the War. The President of the Board of Trade put the case of a trade in which the wages were 20 per cent. lower but the currency of the country is not debased. There is no case to be made out on that ground, and that is why I say that this kind of leaping protection, this kangaroo protection, jumping here and there, making little advances here and there—you can make a case for each individual industry if you do not take into account the direct and indirect effect on all other industries—is a departure from the pledge given at the last General Election. The pledge given at the last election was purely to deal with cases under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. This is not dealing with cases under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. It is introducing a new principle by which you can establish protection by instalment in this country, take one trade now, another trade tomorrow, and another trade the following day, until you have covered the whole ground. The right hon. Gentleman is not even following the procedure of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, which presupposes that there shall be a careful examination of the conditions in each trade.

There is nothing in this Report that justifies the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman is now defending in this Committee. He defended it not on the ground of the Report. He did not defend it on the ground of the principles of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill. He made a purely Protectionist speech upon general grounds, and upon these grounds he can defend a tariff in respect of every industry in this country. I pointed out that that would be the effect, and I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman in his heart would like to see it accomplished. The hon. Member for York is probably a Protectionist, but if he is he has only had the same experience as everybody else when he comes into actual contact with business and trade—his Protectionist principles break down completely. He has examined these proposals in reference to the most important industry in his own city, and he finds that although you can make a good case in respect of some other industry, it hits the more important industry with which he is acquainted. It is upon that ground that the nation has time after time rejected Protection. You can always make a case in respect of some industry. There is no doubt that some industries might profit by having a protective tariff, within which they could build up a business and drive out their competitors; but the nation has always taken the thing as a whole and it has said that although you may benefit a particular industry, other, and more important, industries employing far more hands will be damaged. Upon that ground the nation has voted down the proposal every time the issue has been raised. Now the right hon. Gentleman says that the best method is to take it step by step. By that means the nation will not be able to survey the whole situation, and will find itself a Protectionist country when no one ever dreamt that that was the intention.

I feel that this particular Clause of the Bill is very difficult to support unless the President of the Board of Trade can see his way to make some concessions to those industries to whom wrapping paper is a raw material. On page 28 of the Report there is a list of something like 23 British industries to whom wrapping paper is a raw material, and it never has been the doctrine of Protectionists any more than it has been the doctrine of a Free Trader that raw material ought to be taxed. The contrary has always been the theory. The ideal Protection is to tax the finished article but not the raw material. It is common ground among all economists and among all schools of political thought that if you tax the raw material you increase the cost of production, and if you increase the cost of production, you raise the price in the home market and handicap the English manufacturer in foreign competition. So far as a duty on paper which is not a raw material is concerned, I am, personally, quite prepared to support the proposal. Although I come from Manchester, which is the home of doctrinaires, I do not take a doctrinaire view of this question, and if a Paper Duty is going to encourage production here and increase the number of people employed in the industry, it should be supported. But it should be easy to introduce a duty on manufactured paper, and yet to release the operation of that duty from that proportion of paper imports which represent the raw material of some other industry.

I hope the Committee will realise the enormous number of British manufacturers to whom paper is a raw material. There has developed in Lancashire of late the manufacture of paper matting, paper carpets and bags, at cheaper prices, thereby enabling the British manufacturer to hold his own with foreign rivals who use the more expensive raw material of jute. I have here a mat, normally made with jute, which is made purely of paper at Trafford Park in Manchester. I have here some twine, which looks absolutely like the normal twine, but which is, in fact, made entirely of paper at Trafford Park. To these works in Manchester paper is a raw material. It enables them to produce these goods at a cheap rate and to hold their own in competition with foreign rivals in the home markets and also in foreign markets. It is stated by those engaged in this carpet industry, employing 7,000 persons, that one of the reasons which enables them to hold their own against foreign competition is that they can get their raw material cheaply. I ask the President of the Board of Trade to consider the case of these manufactures and make some concession so that their raw material will remain cheap and unfettered by these proposals.

5.0 P.M.

There is also the case of the box makers. I would like to ask, because I do not know, and the box makers do not know, whether the provisions of this Clause cover strawboard or strawboard on reels. Apparently the box makers believed at one time that the contemplated provisions of this duty would not apply to straw-board or strawboard on reels. They want to know definitely whether or not they come within the purview of the Bill. It is an important matter, because something like 30,000 British workpeople—far more than are employed in the wrapping paper industry—are employed in box making, and if their industry is going to be made more difficult and the cost of production increased, the Government are again unnecessarily hampering British manufacturers, a thing which no one wants to do.

I remember that during the very unfortunate Election of 1923, when I lost my seat, there was a firm of box makers in my constituency. When I spoke to them I remember assuring them that, although it might be the intention of the Government to tax paper, they would never tax paper which was used as a raw material. If the matter came to a point, I said I would certainly fight against such a duty, because it was never the intention of the Conservative party to tax raw material at all. I think that most of my hon. Friends on this side of the House have always said that our policy never contemplated the taxing of raw material. If we tax the raw material of the box-making industry we are certainly not carrying out what in my view has always been the intention and the policy of our party. There you have another illustration of how, unless some concession is made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what is no doubt a very excellent proposal to help paper makers in England will have the disastrous side effect of injuring larger industries. That is something which we have to avoid.

I would like to turn to what might be called the psychological side of the question. On page 23 of their Report the Safeguarding of Industries Committee say quite truly: esting and admirable ideal, but it is not an ideal that appeals to English business men.

When I go to Lancashire, and ask business men what they want of the Government, the answer which I always get is that they want to be left alone! They may be right or wrong, but that is their view. At a time like this, when our party is becoming more and more a national party, it is the last thing in the world that we should wish to do for so small a gain as this proposal will bring—to run the risk of alienating so many moderate men who are at present flocking to our side. It is the psychological side of the question which we ought not to ignore. Having that in mind, and also the detrimental results of this provision on many English manufactures, I ask the Government to make the very simple concession of exempting from the orbit of their proposals those paper imports which are clearly and definitely the raw material of British manufactures.

I have listened with very great interest to the excellent Free Trade speeches of hon. Members opposite. I would particularly congratulate the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) upon putting such an excellent case, from a well-prepared Liberal brief, against the policy that has been pursued by the Government.

Well, a chocolate brief. I would like to support the very eloquent appeal that the hon. Member made for a revision of the incidence of the tax, in so far as it affects the British wholesale confectioner, and particularly the export confectioner. In this industry some 80,000 people are employed, and the industry pays about £10,000,000 a year in wages, and is, therefore, a very considerable and important industry. In the Report which has been issued in connection with this matter, on page 15 in paragraph 38, we are told that this important export trade is suffering from very serious depression, and that its exports have diminished from 30,000 tons in 1913 to about 18,000 tons in 1924. And this decline, we are told, is due to foreign competition, heavy tariffs and increasing local manufacture. What is it that the Government are proposing to do? They are proposing to put an additional burden upon an industry whose exports have very seriously diminished since 1913, when, according to the terms of their own report, the diminution is largely due to increased foreign competition.

I understand that 70 per cent. of the total output of Swiss chocolate is imported into this country. The effect of this duty will be to give a direct bounty to the foreigner and actually to penalise the British concern. The foreign chocolates, provided that the terms of the Committee's Report are carried out—so long as they keep their wrapping paper below 15 per cent. of the total cost of the article—will escape the tax which the British exporter will have to pay. The tax will be a burden upon the British manufacturer, not only in meeting competition in the internal market against the foreign-manufactured goods which will come in without paying the tax, but it will also prove an additional burden to the British exporter in meeting foreign competition in markets outside this country, where he has to face the increasing competition of the foreign manufacturer.

I suggest that, instead of this policy promoting employment, it will really establish principles which will diminish the total volume of employment in this country. I have been wondering how many years it will take to extinguish our export trade altogether if we continue to have the disadvantage of a Conservative Administration, because, in spite of this legislation, our export trades continue to diminish, and the great staple industries of the country, apart altogether from the industrial dislocation due to the unfortunate events of the last five or six weeks, appear to suffer continuously and to an increasing extent from depression and stagnation. I hope that those who are responsible for Government policy will consider the advisability of giving some concession in the matter of this wrapping paper, particularly so far as imported chocolates are concerned, on the lines indicated by the hon. Member for York.

Before I attempt to deal in any degree technically with some of the arguments advanced against the duty, I trust that the Committee will allow me to make a personal explanation. I have been referred to as a manufacturer of paper. That is true. I am, perhaps, one of the largest manufacturers of wrapping paper in England. Knowing that the House takes the view that those who are interested in any particular trade should not speak on that trade when it comes before the Committee, I felt some diffidence in rising on this occasion. But I have decided, as there are only one or two of us in the House who understand the trade—

There is no rule against a Member speaking, but if he votes and his interests are directly affected, his vote is liable to be challenged.

That is exactly what I was going to say—that I think it would be to the advantage of the Committee if I spoke on this subject, but that I did not intend to vote in any Division on this subject. I have listened with the greatest interest to the many arguments which have been used against the duty. I have always had a very great admiration for the wonderful way in which the hon. Member for the Hills-borough Division of Sheffield (Mr. A. V. Alexander) puts his case against safeguarding. I thought I should have to meet a rather stern case in this instance, but if the best that can be said against a Wrapping Paper Duty has been said by the hon. Member and by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), then, indeed, we have a walkover. The hon. Member for Hills-borough, I have no doubt, was not very well prepared to make his statement. He referred to a well-known firm of paper merchants called Spicer's. I am sorry he is not here. I think he was under the impression that they were paper manufacturers. Of course, they are nothing of the kind.

Not wrapping paper manufacturers. As the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Livingstone) knows, they are makers of writing papers, but not of wrapping papers.

The hon. Member for the Western Isles is very well known and very much respected in the paper trade, and he ought to know the difference between wrapping paper and writing paper. I wish, however, that the hon. Member for the Hillsborough Division had told us a little about the mill which belongs to the great Cooperative Society with which, I understand, he is connected. He might have been able to tell us something about the experience of that wrapping paper mill, the difficulties through which they have passed, and the fact that the mill got into such a bad way that a great Scottish Co-operative Society was able to buy that mill—which in ordinary circumstances would be likely to cost £100,000 —for less than £10,000 a few years ago. So bad have been the conditions in the wrapping-paper trade, that when the society was asked to put down another and a more modern machine to manufacture wrapping paper at their mill, they refused to do so because they said there was no prospect of anything in the trade. Since the duty has been introduced, I think the hon. Member will find that the management of that mill shows a considerably brighter spirit. I wish he had told us all about that, and I wish he had also been good enough to refer to the fact that that great Co-operative Society buys a tremendous lot of British paper—all honour to them. In fact, I believe I am right in saying that in regard to certain classes of goods, the Co-operative Society will not buy anything except British manufacture, and in regard to certain bags, will only buy those which have been made by hand. If I might refer again to myself, I have the great honour to make a large quantity of paper for the Co-operative Society, and I have every reason to believe that they are quite satisfied—at least, I hope so.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to kraft paper. I think there is a general idea that the kraft paper made in this country is in some degree inferior to the foreign article. That is pure nonsense. There is no better kraft paper made in the world than some of that which is made in the British mills. Whether the general run of kraft paper made in this country up to now is equal to the general run of kraft paper made in Sweden or elsewhere, I do not argue at this moment, but that we can and do make kraft paper in this country every bit as good as any kraft paper made elsewhere in the world, I do most definitely assert. The hon. Member knows that there is vastly better stuff made here than is made in Germany. [HON. MEMBERS: "At the same price?"] It is not the same price, I quite agree, and I will tell hon. Members all about that, and explain why it is not the same price. When it comes to another paper of a somewhat similar character, I think anybody acquainted with the trade will admit that in such papers as sulphites and caps the British maker is far superior to some other makers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because we pay higher wages and work shorter hours.

I think I have, to some extent, at any rate, demolished the arguments of the hon. Member for the Hillsborough Division, and I had better tell the Committee something about the paper industry as a whole, with special reference to wrapping paper. I wish to show why it is that wrapping paper cries out for safeguarding more than any other class of paper. Roughly, there are five classes of paper made in this country. There is writing paper, both hand-made and machine-made. It needs no protection or safeguarding, because there is no import of any considerable magnitude, and the old British rag paper mills are perhaps the most famous throughout the world. There is a second class of paper known as wood-free print, commonly known to the public as printing paper. This is manufactured from sulphite pulp. There is no considerable import of that class of paper, and, although that trade has suffered during the last few years, it has not suffered in a degree comparable with either of the other two classes which I am now about to mention. There is also an esparto paper which is only made in Scotland and partly in England. It is of the finest class possible, made of grass, and there is hardly any made in any other part of the world. I understand a little is to be made in France, but there is no import of it to this country.

I now come to the only two classes which might be said in some degree to require safeguarding. I will deal first, with one which has not been suggested for safeguarding, namely newsprint. I am sure my hon. Friends either now or later will "chivvy" the President of the Board of Trade, or perhaps my humble self, with the question: "Why protect wrapping paper, if you dare not protect newsprint"? I am prepared to answer that argument. Although there is a considerable import of newsprint into this country, largely I am glad to say from our own Dominions—from, Canada—the newsprint trade is protected in a peculiar manner. In England and Scotland—in Britain generally—the newspapers use particular lengths of reel. Indeed they use about 36 different sizes, and in order to import an article of such bulk as newsprint, on the web, easily into any country, you must have a few standard sizes. Throughout the length and breadth of the United States they have standardised a 72½ inch reel. Therefore it is perfectly easy for Canada or Sweden to make up any quantity of 72½ inch reels and send them to the United States —if there was no duty as there is at present—and if they could not sell these in one place, they could sell them in another because of the almost universally standardised web.

In England we have not grown up in that way, and we have between 36 and 40 different sizes of web. We have half sizes, three-quarter sizes, full sizes, 36 and 54 and 72 inch, and variations of these, and the newspapers throughout the country are made up in that way. The result is that if a big paper like the "Daily Mail" were to import into this country all the newsprint it wanted, it would have to provide a warehouse about the size of the Crystal Palace in order to store about a week's or a month's production, so varied are the sizes. Some days it may be noticed the "Daily Mail" will go on to a 24-page paper; other days on to a 16-page paper, and varying sizes, and it wants webs according to the size used. Newsprint in this country has that protection, and until all the newspapers alter their sizes there will always be that connection between the home manufacturer of newsprint and the home consumer. Again, you have the fact that British newspapers like to get their newsprint hot from the press. There is another great factor. Although the British newsprint makers suffered from foreign competition in the past, luckily within the last few years the great Australian Common- wealth gave them a £3 preference on all paper sent there against the whole world, and that Preference has had the effect of enabling the British newsprint makers to send over 100,000 tons per annum to Australia, and so get a profit which helps them to fill up their mills.

We now come to wrapping paper, and in my opinion any reasonable man who has heard or read the case and has no preconceived theory on the subject of Free Trade or Protection will come to the conclusion that this 16⅔ per cent. which the Committee have recommended is a very reasonable recommendation, having regard to the circumstances. As a manufacturer myself, I think 16f per cent. is a very fair recommendation. If I were selfish in the matter, I might say that we are entitled to have 33⅔ per cent., but I think that proves that the Committee went most carefully into the matter. They ought to be given all credit. I attended all the meetings, and I would like to compliment the President of the Board of Trade on the constitution of that Committee and on the admirable manner in which they conducted this inquiry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is not only because they gave the duty. I should have preferred if they had given a duty of 33⅓ per cent. They did not do so, though they have done so in many other cases where no better claim has been proved than that of wrapping paper. However, they went scientifically into the question, and they have given us 16⅔ per cent.

I would point out to hon. Members that this trade employs 7,700 men. That may seem insignificant, but I have been given to understand that it is the duty of every one of us where we find a man out of employment to get him into a job, and whether it is a matter of 700, or 7,000 or 70,000 men, surely it is worth doing. I ask hon. Members to realise that that is one of the things which I am out to do. But, in addition to these 7,700 men, there are almost directly employed by this trade, and in direct association with it, some 4,000 to 5,000 other men. Most of these poor fellows are almost outcasts of industry. They are men who go about from house to house collecting the waste paper, and the rags, and the things which are used in the manufacture of wrapping paper. I am sure I will have the sympathy of hon. Members of the Labour party when I refer to the fact that these men have often been called "unemployable." If the wrapping paper trade in this country is done away with—it being the outlet for the waste paper, the rags, and rope ends and so on collected by these men—you will do a great deal to throw out of work these poor fellows, to whom this is practically the only available employment. Therefore, in considering the wrapping paper trade, you must give some consideration to these men who are on what I might call the fringe of society.

Can the hon. Member say what rates of wages these people on the fringe of society get?

These men do not get any wages. They are their own employers. They go from house to house, they gather up the paper, and they take it into depots and sell it. [An HON. MEMBER: "How much do they earn?"] I am not an authority, and I wish I could inform the hon. Member, but, although I started very low in this business, I did not actually start in that job. The figures of unemployment for this trade are not given separately by the Board of Trade, and, therefore, we have to rely for these figures upon the trade union officials, who are usually a very reliable source for unemployment figures. The trade unions compute the figure for unemployment in this trade to be from 15 to 20 per cent., with 50 per cent. on short time. But that is not all. I would like to tell the Committee that in saying this the trade union officials point out what is to me, as an employer, one very serious aspect of this question. One great union involved in this trade has said that unemployment in the trade has been so very bad that, instead of being able to give, as they always have done, by way of unemployment benefit, 14s. a week for 13 weeks, followed by 7s. a week for 39 weeks, they have had to tell their members that this benefit must be reduced, and they have had to reduce it to 15s. a week for 10 weeks. That will convey to hon. Members on the Labour benches how really serious unemployment has been in this trade. Before the War this trade employed something like 11,000 people, and, therefore, there are somewhere about 3,000 who could be absorbed in the, present industry provided the work was there. If the industry increases by reason of this duty, as I have every reason to think it will, there is room for at least as many more people, and I have every reason to believe that when this duty is imposed—indeed, we already see signs of it—we shall see a large increase in employment in the wrapping paper trade.

As to the importance of the industry, there can be no question about that to anyone who has any intimate knowledge of what the wrapping paper industry did during the War. I happened to be privileged for a period of that time to be in charge of a department which had to purchase a large quantity of wrapping paper for munition purposes, and when I tell the Committee that approximately 200,000 tons of wrapping paper was used during one year of the War for munition and other war purposes, including the inside of shells and of the tips of the bullets, and that this paper was regarded by the War Office, the Admiralty, and the Ministry of Munitions as absolutely essential, then I have no need to press the point that wrapping paper has played its part, and that, if there is any possible chance that we are ever going to get, as we hope we never may get, a repetition of such days as we had from 1914 to 1918, it is absolutely essential that we should retain the wrapping paper trade of this country, and not allow it to be entirely extinguished.

I think the Debate may later on revolve around the question of Kraft papers, and, therefore, in a very few sentences, I propose to show how Kraft paper came to be manufactured, and how and where it is manufactured. Kraft paper is made out of what we call sulphate pulp. In 1870, when cellulose was first discovered, there was no such thing as Kraft pulp. There was a mechanical or ground wood, and a cellulose pulp, which is called sulphite, made under the sulphurous-acid process. Then the manufacturers of wood pulp quickly found that, in order to make a good sulphite pulp, it was necessary for them to have only the cleanest wood and the cleanest logs. So some genius discovered a way of using up all those logs which were either too imperfect for use in sulphite pulp, or had some bark on them which could not be got off, and even wood which was partially rotten—in other words, we use that sort of wood for clean- ing up the yard—and out of that a pulp was made which was known as sulphate or Kraft pulp, and the question was what to do with this peculiar pulp, which had a brownish colour. It was, first of all, used to add in certain quantities to existing wrapping papers made of ropes and waste papers, and ultimately they found that they could manufacture it into a common form of paper which is well known throughout the world as Kraft, which is, I think, a German word, and it means strong.

We had, during the period from about 1880 or 1890 on till just before the War, efforts being made in Sweden to introduce this paper into this country, but just before the War we started over here to manufacture Kraft paper, and we made very substantial strides. I was twitted the other day by the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Mackenzie Livingstone) for having said in a certain Liberal paper—how I came to be writing for a Liberal newspaper passes my comprehension, but I suppose it was in an endeavour to convert them to buying home materials—that the wrapping paper trade was in rather an antiquated condition. That was in 1923, and I am happy to tell the hon. Member that, from close investigations which I have made, I find that the wrapping paper trade has spent something like half a million of money in bringing the trade up to date since that time, and in addition putting down machines which are absolutely and eminently suitable for the manufacture of this Kraft paper.

It is perfect nonsense to tell us that we cannot make Kraft paper, given the opportunity. We have had a very bad time in this matter. The War practically took our whole chance of catching up the foreigner so far as Kraft paper making was concerned, and it is only since the War that we have really tried to get back to this matter. I should like to tell the Committee that since the introduction of these duties, contracts have been made for the putting down of machinery to the extent of £475,000 in this country, so that when hon. and right hon. Members tell us that we are a kind of stick-in-the-mud trade, and not making any progress, I reply that since 1923 that £500,000 has been spent in this country, and many contracts have been made—it is a small industry, I agree—to meet the situation, and if hon. Members agree that even one man is worth while getting back into work, I suggest that we are not so bad as we are painted.

Finally, I should like to show what we are up against. The President of the Board of Trade said something about conditions in Sweden and Germany, but technically; let me bring it home to hon. and right hon. Members on the Opposition Benches in language which I am sure they will not fail to understand. We pay, as employers, the following wages in our trade: I am not going to pretend that these are very high wages, but I think they will generally be regarded as reasonably fair wages, and, indeed, they are so accepted by the trade unions. We pay our skilled men Is. 6d. an hour, we pay our unskilled men Is. 1½d. an hour, and we have a grade which is known in the trade as semi-skilled men whom we pay Is. 3d. an hour. Our day workers work an eight hours' day, and our shift workers work a 132 hours' week. I think hon Members will agree, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, that those are fair wages.

Yes, but in three shifts, of course. That would be a 44-hours' week for the shift workers, and the day workers have a 48-hours' week. A 44-hours' week has long been asked for by the Labour party, and we have it in this trade. In Sweden, which is one of the competing countries, worked out at the present rate of exchange, they pay their skilled men l1d. an hour, as against our Is. 6d., and their unskilled men 9½d., as against our 1s. l½d. I am not so much complaining that those are lower wages, but what I do complain of is that, while we are working and going to go on working, I hope, a 132-hours' week, they are working a 12-hours' week longer; that is to say, a 144-hours' week, and I seriously complain that when you get a combination of lower wages for skilled men of 7d. an hour, and for unskilled men of 4d. an hour, with a 12-hours' longer week worked by your competitor, it is very difficult to compete.

That is in Sweden, but when we get to Germany we get an entirely different state of affairs. Germany not only pays lower wages and works longer hours, but it does it to a tremendous extent. In Germany, they pay skilled men in our trade from 6d. to 8d. against our Is. 6d. I will take it at 8d. I know, from my own experience, thousands of skilled men in Germany who are paid at the rate of 6d., but I am willing to give the Committee the benefit of the 2d., and to call it 8d The unskilled men are paid 5½d. an hour. We hear talk in this country about starvation wages, but compare the wages here with the wages which I know from my own personal experience are paid in Germany. Let me point out that the German also works 10 hours a day against our eight in at least 300 of his mills. Yet I and my colleagues in the wrapping-paper trade are asked to compete against Germany, which is sending between 30 and 40 per cent. of the wrapping paper coming into this country, and sending it in imports which have more than doubled in the last year until it has reached quite substantial proportions. I am asked to compete, paying my men, as I want to do, and as I hope I shall be allowed to continue to do, Is. 6d. an hour, against men earning 6d. or 8d. an hour. I do ask hon. Members to put themselves in the place of a practical manufacturer who is doing his best to keep things together, and to keep thousands of men employed. How in the world is he going to do it?

The last point with which I wish to deal is the question of the consumer. Some hon. Members naturally say, "This is all very well, but what about the consumer? How is the consumer to get off under these conditions?" It is a perfectly fair question, and I have taken a good deal of trouble to work out some cases from the consumer's point of view. A good deal of rot, really, if I may say so, is talked about the position of the consumer in this matter. Wrapping paper, it is perfectly true, is a very widely used article, but it is used in very small quantities, and is a very reasonably cheap priced article, taken as a whole. The first thing I naturally ask is, "Is it going to have any sort of effect on the cost of living?" Even if the whole of the duty is imposed, the effect on the cost of living in the case of such things as the wrapping of meat and fish, presuming always that they use a new sheet of wrapping-paper in which to wrap their meat or fish, will be this. We find that one ton of wrapping paper will wrap 50,000 5lb. parcels of meat, or 100 tons of fish. It means that if you buy 20s. worth of fish or 20s. worth of meat, the extra cost of wrapping paper will be exactly one-twelfth of a penny. I do not think that is a fraction which the shopkeeper could reasonably put on in these days, when it is said he has been receiving rather more than a fair share of profit. In regard to biscuits, the extra cost is one-eighth of a penny on 20s. worth, and on fruit it is one-eighth of a penny on that amount. An hon. Member mentioned sugar-bags. They are almost exclusively made in this country as it is, and I can assure the hon Member it will not make any difference.

To answer the question of the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott), this bugbear about confectionery and chocolate-making, I do ask the Committee to get these things in their right proportion. Let us see what it really does mean. I am willing to put the case as much against myself as I possibly can. I am going to assume for a moment that a great firm like Cadbury's are charged the whole of the duty on the amount of the paper which they buy from abroad, and that they are going to bear the whole of it. We are seriously told that this is going to have an effect upon employment, upon export, and so on. Let us see what the figure is. I do not think I could take a better case than the firm of Cadbury. A lot of fuss has been made about the percentage of packing paper used in packing chocolate and cocoa. All the paper that is bought to wrap up cream chocolate and milk chocolate is not dutiable paper, and does not come into the thing at all. So that what you have got to get down to is the amount a great firm like Cadbury's, or Fry's, or Rowntree's, making a nice profit of £180,000 a year, are really going to suffer from these terrible duties. I find that if Cadbury's had to pay the whole of the duty, it would mean an extra impost on that firm of slightly less than one penny a week on the wages of every person they employ. I want to know, when people talk about discharging workers because of this duty, whether Cadbury or any other firm in the country is going to discharge a man for some five-sevenths of a penny a week. I cannot imagine we have yet reached the stage when a particularly nicely protected industry like the chocolate and cocoa industry could go to that extreme step. I think it is almost an outrage for firms of the chocolate and cocoa variety to complain against this insignificant duty, even if it all falls upon them.

Finally, I want to answer in advance, if I can, the suggestion that we British manufacturers are putting up our prices the moment this duty comes into force. The duty has been in force since May. I picked figures out at random this morning, to show what the effect of a larger volume of work has had upon one mill under my control. I took the week ending the 30th April. The figures are open to anyone to examine. In the last week before the duty was imposed, the average cost to me per ton of wrapping paper made in that mill was £13 3s. 8d., and the average sale price was £12 19s., so that I was selling at a loss. I take the last week. Up goes the quantity of paper made, of course. The orders come in, and I find I manufactured then at £11 6s. 5d., and I sold slightly under £12 10s. So that I have brought down the price to the consumer 9s. a ton by reason of this duty. That may seem funny to an hon. Member behind me, but the facts are here, and I am perfectly willing, if he has any knowledge of manufacture, to examine them for himself. I challenge him to dispute the figures.

I have tried to point out that, as far as the wrapping paper industry is concerned, it is deserving of consideration. I have tried to point out that if the Committee will give us a chance with this duty, we will go ahead, we will put down machinery, and, as far as my own firm is concerned, I am prepared to go as far as to follow the hon. Gentleman for North Southwark (Dr. Guest) in his Amendment, and to give part of my profits to my workers. I realise that if I am going to benefit, my workers have some right to benefit, not only in the constant employment which they will have and the increased employment, but also from increased wages. I am prepared, as far as I am concerned, to give that assurance. I want to say this is a trade where there is at least an opportunity for getting some thousands of men back to work, and I particularly appeal to the Labour party, that if we can get only 1,000 men back to work by reason of this duty, and if we do not dislodge a single man, and do not increase the price to the consumer, then, I venture to say, the Government have done well in bringing this forward.

6.0 P.M.

It is desirable that different views should be placed before the Committee, and should meet with attention and with sympathetic interest. I do not want to say one word against the hon. Member for Eastern Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine), who has just spoken, but I think that I am entitled to point out that he has spoken on behalf of a certain interest.

I do not want to be offensive, but I desire to say that we must have regard to the fact that the speech to which we have just listened, interesting though it was, was put forward as a purely partisan speech. I am going to remind the Committee that we are here to legislate, not for our particular trades, not for particular sections of industry, not for special interests, but for the nation as a whole. I want briefly to remind the Committee as to what are the dimensions of the issue which has been raised in connection with this packing and wrapping paper. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken is sympathetic to the fact that there are a number of workpeople out of employment at the present time in the industry. We all deplore that fact. On the other hand, what is going to be the effect of the policy which is advocated, not upon the thousand people who are out of work, but upon the millions in the nation who are likely to be affected by the proposals?

What are the facts? As I understand them, they are that the total number employed in the particular industry is roundly about 6,000 or 7,000. Of these, at the present time about 1,000 are out of work. It is also said that a percentage are not likely to get back. The total number involved directly in the industry is from six to seven thousand, with one thousand out of work, but it is calculated that this proposed duty will make an addition to the cost of production in other trades of £800,000 per annum. The document from which I obtain these particulars is signed by the Secretary of the Paper Import Group Committee, London Chamber of Commerce. The estimate of those who are using paper as a raw material is that this will cost paper users not less than £800,000.

Such a policy would be deplorable, if to put the thousand men who are now out into work is going to cost the nation £800,000. I submit that it is a very dear remedy. There is no case on that ground. As I have said, and as I maintain, we ought to bear in mind that legislation, when introduced, should be for the nation and not for a specially selected class. Therefore, I submit that this duty is not sound. There is another ground. The trade of packing paper makers is said to be entitled to this special privilege because the wages in other countries are far superior to the wages paid here. I am not going into that question so far as Germany is concerned, because there the wages are less. I think, however, we ought to have the truth, and I am going, to call the attention of the Committee to the findings in the Report in regard to the rate of wages in other countries. The hon. Gentleman who spoke so fully and with so much information omitted to refer to Norway—one of the principal countries concerned in producing this kind of paper. It is true that in the Report Norway only gets a few lines, but those lines are significant. They are these:

"The applicants did not furnish wage statistics for Finland, though this does not, we understand, imply that wage conditions there are accepted as equal to the British standard. They eventually "—

I ask the Committee to mark these words—

"withdrew the claim that inferiority of wage conditions now exists in Norway. It was found that real wages in the paper industry there are probably somewhat in excess of wages in the United Kingdom."

That is so far as Norway is concerned. But I gather that the President of the Board of Trade admitted that, and that there was no suggestion of inferiority there. Then as to Sweden. The Committee are apparently somewhat uncertain. They say:

"The available statistics suggest that real (hourly) wages in the paper industry are from 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. below those of the United Kingdom, but the factors of uncertainty mentioned above are specially operative in this case where the wage is based on an elaborate classification both by categories of workers and by geographical groups. Piece-work, again, on rates calculated to yield 20 per cent. more than the hourly rates is obligatory under the wage agreement whenever such an arrangement is possible."

This implies that in the bulk of the Swedish paper factories workmen receive wages equal to those in this country. They both work by piece-work, and we see what the Committee says about the 20 per cent. more than the hourly rates. Then the Report goes on:

"Moreover, it would appear that British and Swedish real wages have increased to a practically identical extent since the War, so that whatever disparity exists is apparently a continuation only of a disparity already present before the War. We should hesitate to describe Swedish wage conditions, so far as we can ascertain them, as 'unfair.'"

That is what the Report says in regard to Norway and Sweden. I submit, therefore, on the ground of wages, that the case is an extremely weak one, and does not prove the proposition laid down by the Safeguarding Committee. I want in a final word to call attention to the irritating nature of this duty in its operation. Do hon. Members imagine that this duty stops at two or three different kinds of paper? If so they make a very great mistake. I notice that a trade paper a short time ago endeavoured to ascertain what classes of paper this duty would be applied to, and I want to remind the Committee of some of these papers to which on the authority of the Board of Trade this duty is going to apply. I will not read them all. There is a list of no less than 45 classes to which the duty is to be applied. The list includes corrugated paper, grocery and hosiery papers, pin and needle papers, toilet papers, waxed papers, lace papers, and so on. These are the classes of paper to which this duty will apply. I submit that to embark on the taxing of this category is a stupid policy, and will land the country and the vast interests concerned in a state of irritation; but the country will eventually wake up to what the Government have done.

We all listened with great interest to the very eloquent and interesting speech which was made by the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine), and after that speech there is very little for the supporters of this Clause to say; but there are one or two points which he did not mention which I should like to put before the Committee. The last speaker suggested that these duties would cost the users of wrapping paper £800,000. I suppose we all received the circular in which this statement was made, but it is so absurd that I did not think that any hon. Member would take it seriously. It is based on the supposition that the whole duty will be added to the cost of paper made in this country, and the whole duty will be added to the cost of imported paper. The most convinced Free Trader will not suggest that the whole of the duty on any article will be borne by the consumer, and I do not believe that any hon. Member who opposes this Clause would suggest that this would happen.

The hon. Baronet the Member for York made a moving appeal for his own constituents, and the hon. Member for East Dorset has answered him. I suppose we have all received a circular from one of the confectionery manufacturers, and I have worked out a few figures from this. This firm states that paper represents from 2 per cent. to 15 per cent. of the cost of the articles produced by them when sold to the shopkeeper. Let us take this at the highest figure mentioned, 15 per cent., and suppose that they pay the whole duty, which everyone knows they would not do. The additional cost will be only 2s. 6d. in every £5 worth of goods. It is difficult to see how they arrive at this figure of 15 per cent. They were represented before the Committee and, according to their own representation, they use 591 tons of paper a year, a large part of which would probably not come under these duties. Take it that the whole of this paper is taxed and that the whole duty of £4 per ton is paid. Everyone knows that they would not pay this, but I want to put it at its worst. The extra cost to the firm would be £2,196 per annum. It is probable that the turnover of this firm is £4,000,000 per annum. The extra expense caused by the duties would be Is. Id. per £100 of the turnover. I do not think this will add very much to the cost of a pound of chocolates. The hon. Member for East Dorset has explained to us the difference in wages and hours in this country and in foreign countries. There is no doubt that if our mills are given a fair chance they can produce paper which will compete in quality with any foreign paper. It is calculated that if this Clause is passed our mills will be able to produce 100,000 tons more paper. I wonder if hon. Members realise what this means. It means constant employment for 4,000 more men, 150,000 tons of coal used in producing this paper, 300,000 tons extra freight on the railways and, approximately, £50,000 spent in repairs on machinery.

If this Clause be not passed, many of our mills will go out of production, and we shall be at the mercy of the foreigner. If, on the other hand, they can be set going at their full capacity and working full time, they will be able to reduce the price of paper. Therefore, I feel that these duties, if they are put on, as I am sure they will be, will not only benefit the paper trade but will help considerably other trades—those of the miners, the railwaymen, and the engineers. I very much hope the House will agree to these duties because they will help the paper trade which is suffering greatly not through its own fault but from foreign competition and the work it did during the War, and they will do no damage to other trades.

I do not propose to enter into the controversy with regard to Free Trade and Protection on this particular matter. A Labour Government in office would take quite a different line with regard to this as to other matters, and if it did use a tariff, as in some remote future time is just possible, it would use it as part of a different policy from the policy put forward by the party opposite. I was very glad to hear from the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall-Caine) that he, as a big paper manufacturer, was prepared to accept the spirit of the Amendment that stands in my own name on the Paper, and that he is willing to share, as he said, the profits of any improvement with the employés in the industry. It is from the standpoint of the workers, the basic producers, that I wish to speak. We ought to get away from the custom of continually regarding the industry as an abstraction and regarding the consumer as the criterion by which everything has to be judged, and concentrate on fortifying and improving the position of the producer in the State. The position of the producer is the fundamentally important thing. If you have the producers well paid and fully employed, then you have a prosperous State; it depends on your other measures whether your cost of living is cheap or not. Therefore, for my own part, I would be quite willing to go with hon. Gentlemen opposite if they would add to their proposals—I am, of course, speaking for myself in this matter—a definite guarantee of improvement for the workers, because that is the essence of the whole thing. We very often hear from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite expressions of the greatest possible sympathy with the workers, but sympathy has to be expressed in some quite definite fashion before we are ready to accept it at what appears to be its face value. No doubt hon. Gentlemen opposite will remember the words of a very great psychologist, Professor James, when he said that one ought never to let a kind feeling remain unexpressed in action, even if it were only a kind feeling towards one's grandmother, and if hon. Gentlemen opposite would let their kind feelings towards the workers of this country be expressed in doing something definite to improve their wages, to lessen their hours, and generally to raise the standard of life of the workers, we should get on much quicker with our arguments.

For my own part, I am willing to take the argument entirely on the basis of its effect on the producer, but I am by no means fully convinced by this afternoon's Debate that a safeguarding duty such as is proposed in this case is going to have beneficial effects, nor am I convinced, in spite of what I am very glad to have heard from the hon. Member for East Dorset, that if the amount of employment in the industry is increased the worker will get an adequate share of the improved profits. I hope I may have the opportunity of arguing on my own Amendment at a later stage, and putting some specific points with regard to it, but I do think we ought to have some assurance from the Government that it is intended to take definite steps to improve the standard of life of the workers in the industry. I want to say quite frankly that when I found that this proposed safeguarding duty on paper was to be discussed, I did not, like certain hon. Members, pay attention to the communications I received from the employers, but I did pay attention to the communications from the trade unions, and entered into correspondence with one of the two chief unions concerned. There is no doubt whatsoever that they are emphatically in favour of this duty; but I need not tell hon. Members opposite that it will not help them to accept the verdict of a trade union on this occasion unless they are more willing than they have shown themselves to be in the past to accept the verdict of trades unions on other occasions—for instance, with regard to the miners. If hon. Gentlemen opposite would give more practical expression to their sympathy we might have more confidence in their intentions respecting this particular duty.

I do not want to elaborate this matter, or enter into a controversy on general lines, but I would like to know from the President of the Board of Trade whether he is prepared to accept the principle of my Amendment; whether he is willing to incorporate as a definite part of the legislation imposing this duty a corresponding obligation upon the employers in the industry to give their workers a share in the increased prosperity of the industry. Unless they do that, I do not see that these workers will be any better off than they have been in the past, though it is quite true that they expect there will be increased employment, an increased number of men taken on and increased prosperity. We have had rates of wages quoted to us by the hon. Member for Dorset. I have here a copy of the national agreement dealing with the wages of these workers. They are exceedingly complicated, and I am sorry the hon. Member for East Dorset is not in his place now to deal with the details. A very large number of quite young persons are employed, and the highest wage in the industry is something like £3 12s. for a week of 48 hours. Although that is a reasonable wage and, on present standards, is a living wage, it is, as we used to say in the Army in France, "Nothing to write home about." £3 12s.

would not keep any Member of this House for a week. I do not wish to make fallacious comparisons, but I do say quite emphatically that while £3 12s. is a reasonable wage it is by no means a wage we can boast about, and is nothing in comparison with the wages which are paid in this industry in, let us say, a differently organised country like the United States of America.

I myself, and I think a great many Members of my party also, would very much like to know what is to be the attitude of the President of the Board of Trade towards the Amendment I have put down. Is he, while saying that this safeguarding legislation improves the condition of the industry, increases the amount of employment, and increase profits, also going to lay it down as a condition that it must also be of benefit to the wage-earner—that a condition must be attached to the granting of the duty that the worker is to share in the prosperity of the industry pari passu with the increase of profits? I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that, and I put it forward as a way out of the difficulty which always arises whenever a subject of this kind is discussed, namely, that instead of being discussed on its merits it is discussed as a question of Free Trade or Protection, whereas it ought to be discussed as a question of an improvement or not in the conditions and wages of the workers in the industry.

Although I am a Free Trader, I believe in safeguarding in a proper case, but I cannot bring myself to believe that this branch of the paper-making industry has brought itself within the legitimate scope of the safeguarding legislation. As I understand it, it is a principle both of the old Safeguarding of Industries Act and of the scheme in the White Paper that the effect of the protection of one industry upon other industries must be an essential and vital matter for consideration. The implication clearly is that if an industry fails to show that other industries are not going to be hampered by the help which it receives, it fails to bring itself within the safeguarding scheme. I have on the Paper an Amendment raising the question of drawbacks, and it is vital to a consideration of the general question to know the attitude of the Government on that matter. As the hon. Member for Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst) has pointed out, the Report enumerates 23 industries using as a raw material paper that is to be made subject to duty, and for my part I am very nervous about the effect of this duty on those industries. The President of the Board of Trade referred to something I said yesterday, a remark I made to the effect that during the last two years I had heard no complaint whatever as to the effect of the duties under the first part of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I also said the same could not be said of the Dyestuffs Act, and that complaints from the colour-using industries had been continuous and bitter. I venture to submit that these Paper Duties are far more analogous to the dye-stuff duties. You are dealing here for the first time, apart from the case of dye-stuffs, with a product which is essentially a raw material and nothing but a raw material, and I, in company with the hon. Member for Moss Side, certainly thought that even the most hardened Protectionist drew the line at taxing raw material.

What is the finding of the Committee as regards the effect upon other industries? Their ultimate finding is so hopelessly against the evidence that if it were the verdict of a jury it would be set aside without the smallest hesitation. I have here a transcript of the evidence, and I have no hesitation whatever in making that statement. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) was not correct in saying that other industries are not heard before the Committee. They are heard, but the trouble is that the Committee are concentrating on the applicant industry. Witnesses come along representing other industries—usually one is heard representing each industry—but the effect of their evidence, covering so much ground, leaves but little impression, compared with that created by the large body of evidence directed to the troubles of the applicant industry. Other industries, claiming to be affected, are not inquired into in the same detailed way as the applicant industry.We have, however, to consider the effect of this duty upon other industries. In paragraph 41 of the Report of the Committee on Packing and Wrapping Paper, they refer to the fact that the minor industries are over 100 inches or more. In all these other countries over 50 per cent. of the machines are over 100 inches wide. I want to refer to two or three other industries. Take the industry of envelope making. This industry employs 7,200 workers, more than are employed in the wrapping-paper industry. Dealing with this point, the Report of the Industrial Court, dealing with wages, says:

Take another growing industry, that of the gummed tape paper. This trade has developed at a great pace during the last 10 years, and the export trade has multiplied by more than six times. Our manufacturers are exporting this article to some 19 countries all over the world, and the evidence given before the Committee was that competition was of the keenest description, and that even a 5 per cent. tax upon their raw material would be most disastrous. It was given in evidence before the Committee that they could not get the paper made here sufficiently strong for their purpose, and therefore they had to use imported paper, and they had no hesitation in saying that with a duty anything like the one which was proposed their export trade would simply be wiped out.

Take, as another instance, paper tubes. We are making some 40,000,000 paper tubes per day for the textile trades. We have nearly 60,000,000 spindles working. A great part of the yarn produced is exported, and exported wound on paper tubes. This duty is bound to increase the cost of tubes and throw an additional burden on the export yarn trade. Take, as another example, the label and ticket trade, employing some 1,450 people. Twelve per cent. of this business is export trade. Again there is keen competition, and they have to use imported paper, and even a small tax on their raw material is going to seriously hamper the trade. The chocolate confectionery trade has already been dealt with. But let me take as a further illustration crêpe paper used for bags, handkerchiefs, table cloths, napkins, crackers, dresses and a thousand and one other things. No less than 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. of the trade in the production of crêpe paper is export trade. There is intense competition, and the evidence was that export trade would be gravely prejudiced, if not put an end to, if this duty were imposed. I could go on indefinitely in this way through these 23 industries, but I will spare the Committee. Again, there is "textilose," from which are made yarn, cords, twines, shopping bags, and so on, which are exported to the Dominions and South America. The paper bag industry was referred to, I think by the President of the Board of Trade, and it is curious that that was the one industry that supported this application. Of course, this tax would be a tax on its raw material, but it was stated, and it is to be found in the Report, that it has no export trade, and, therefore, it would do it no harm. These other industries, however, to which it would do harm, all opposed the application. It is perfectly obvious, in my opinion at any rate, that, if this duty goes through without some accompanying system of drawbacks to enable the export trade to be maintained, it will do far more harm than good. For every man that is put into work in one industry, two or three may be taken out in another. Therefore, unless I can get some assurance from the Government that my Amendment providing for drawbacks is going to be favourably considered, I, for one, shall feel it my duty to oppose this proposal.

The speech to which we have just listened is the sort of speech, if I may say so, that the Committee likes to hear, and is a very valuable contribution to the Debate. I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to pay him that compliment. Several speeches have been made from the point of view of the exporter and from the point of view of the users of this important raw material —for I would remind the Committee that this is an example of the importation of what is really a raw material. It is the first step that counts in these matters, and I suppose, before this Government have been much longer in power, we shall have proposals for taxing other raw materials needed for British industry, for which a case has been made out by the manufacturers and other interested persons in this country. The class of people, however, which has hardly been mentioned at all, but which is numerically the greatest, and which probably uses the greatest quantity of paper, is that of the retail shopkeepers who sell food, drapery and so on, and who have to wrap up the parcels which they sell to poor people. Because they will have to pay more for their paper when they sell small quantities of food, drapery and so on to working-class people, their prices must be raised over the course of the year.

The overhead charges of their shops will be increased, and the increased price will have to come from the consumer. Therefore, this will be a direct tax during the course of the year, which will substantially raise the cost of living to every family in the country, and will, of course, hit the poor families worst of all. Eventually, when the village shopkeeper, who does not know what is going on all the time in this House, finds that he has to pay more for his wrapping paper, and must pass it on to the consumer, who, therefore, will have lees to spend, he will, I hope, visit this attack upon his prosperity on the present Government. Every other argument that has been put forward—and I would ask the attention of the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Caine) to this—in favour of this tax on certain sorts of paper, could be applied with greater force to newsprint. The manufacturers of newsprint in this country have efficient machinery, which is more up to date than that of manufacturers who are producing wrapping paper, but the amount of newsprint that is imported into this country in a year is greater than the amount of wrapping paper that is imported.

The consumption is greater, of course, and that strengthens the argument. I do not think the President of the Board of Trade will contradict me when I say it was intended at first to put this tariff upon newsprint, but the Government were up against a rather powerful organisation which would be directly hit, because newsprint is the raw material of the newspaper proprietors. The Government funked it, and I do not blame them, because the users of newsprint would have found out what was happening much more quickly than the village shopkeeper and his customers, or the little retail shopkeepers in their thousands up and down the country. I do not want to quote Holy Writ in regard to these political matters, but, although the mills of God grind very slowly, they nevertheless grind, and the lesson will be learned. The Government, who were wise enough not to incur the hostility of the whole of the newspapers, will find even a greater force arrayed against them later on. The whole thing has been really a ramp, and the President of the Board of Trade knows it. I do not, of course, use the word in any offensive sense.

The bagmakers, who opposed this duty, have been squared—again I use the word figuratively—by having their product protected in its turn. The President of the Board of Trade says that it was on these principles that the commerce of England was built up, and that they are only opposed in the interests of foreign manufacturers. That is an argument that has been used for hundreds of years in this House against those who have tried to defend the principles of Free Trade. I have had no communication that I know of, and do not wish to have any, from any foreigners, but let me quote the case of a very important industry that is carried on in the middle of my own constituency, the manufacture of sweets and confectionery. In that industry there is a large and growing export trade, and I am glad to say that, even at this time of extreme trade depression, they are working full time, and giving a great deal of employment to a great many people. They are very excellent employers in every way, and have taken a leading part in welfare work, and so on. I think that what they write is worth quoting. It comes from a firm that is 100 per cent. British, thoroughly efficient, and is doing a very big export trade. This is what they write to me:

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman seriously suggest that these sweets are wrapped in the paper which is to be the subject of this duty?

certainly, that is so, and the hon. Member for East Dorset, who knows the trade very well, will not deny it.

I think there has been considerable misunderstanding, even among the confectionery trade, as to whether the paper that they use is dutiable, because of the term "coated," which is applied to some wrapping papers. That use of the term "coated" has reference to coated wrapping paper, and not to ordinary coated or enamelled paper. The confectionery trade have unwittingly been led to think that the ordinary coated or enamelled paper would be chargeable to duty, but it is not dutiable at all.

Would the Minister kindly explain exactly what kinds of paper are dutiable?

The only papers which are dutiable are wrapping papers, either plain or treated. If paper is not wrapping paper, it is not dutiable.

It entirely depends on the nature of the paper. When I saw representatives of the confectionery trade, I ascertained from them that a very large proportion of the paper which they used was not, in fact, wrapping paper at all, and that, as I have stated already, 80 per cent. of the limited quantity that they do use is British manufactured now.

I need only refer to paragraph 38 of the Report, which deals with this matter. I think the case has been stated correctly by my correspondent, who is a leading man in the trade. I have had a long correspondence with him, and with him only, in reference to this matter. He certainly does use a considerable amount of wrapping paper, and it will just make the difference where trade is cut very finely in competition with highly efficient French and Swiss manufacturers of chocolate. I do not want to make any special attack upon the paper-makers. They had a good time in the War, and during the boom, and I suppose they want it to continue. We cannot blame them, human nature being what it is, and I do not blame them, but I blame the Government for giving way, and the Executive whom the Government have allowed to take charge. The real advantage enjoyed by the Norwegians, Finns and Swedes is, of course, the great quantity of cheap wood that they, have—the shavings, chippings, cuttings and ends, and the rough rejected pieces that are not exported for building purposes, or even for use as pit props. That is their raw material. Owing to the neglect of forestry in this country, which is due just as much to the party opposite as to my own party, we have not this cheap material which we ought to have.

7.0 P.M.

This is really a question of having cheap and abundant raw material at the disposal of these Scandinavian manufacturers, and that is the case also in Canada, where, I believe, they are beginning to compete very seriously. The remedy is not in a piecemal protective tariff of this sort. There is an idealism in Protection, I admit, and, especially when it is combined with Imperial Preference, there is a good deal to be said for having a great protective system, protecting our real, basic industries, like agriculture, steel, shipbuilding, and so on. If you make a British Zollverein there is something to be said for it, but miserable, pettifogging, political, dishonest, piecemeal protection of this kind is really mischievous and injurious to important industries which are standing up in the face of competition and giving good employment. It is injuring them, and I do hope that those Conservatives, especially from Lancashire, who have addressed the Committee, will on this occasion teach the Government a lesson.

I feel that the hon. Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) has covered much of the ground which I intended to cover, but at the same time I should like to say something on this matter. Like some other Members who have spoken, I am not a very great supporter of the policy of safeguarding —certainly not unless it is applied with great care and caution. I think, though I have had the opportunity of reading and studying not only the Report but the evidence, that on the whole, even if wrapping paper stood alone without the complication of its wider use as a raw material, the case for the application of the safeguarding policy has not been made out. That is my personal opinion, and I think if Members have studied the Report and the evidence carefully they will probably come to the same conclusion, but it does not matter whether my conclusion is right or wrong. The istuation is very much complicated by the admitted fact that we are dealing with a material which is a raw material of many industries.

Before I pass from this expression of doubt, may I tell the Committee why I have those doubts. I have approached the matter with the inclination to support this proposal, and it is only reluctantly that I have come to the conclusion that unless serious alteration is made in it I cannot support it. Let me tell the Committee why. I speak without any expert knowledge at all, but with a sincere desire to come to a fair judgment. As I read the situation in the paper industry in the last 20 years, leading up to its present position, there is one very simple explanation and reason why the industry has got into this position, and it is the main consideration. Twenty years ago Scandinavia—naturally the home of the paper trade—developed the paper which is commonly called Kraft. As the Committee who considered this matter have said more than once in their Report, it is of a superior quality and in consequence has come into very great demand Twenty years ago that development began. It met the public want and the public have demanded Kraft for their purposes, and they have found they were very satisfied with it.

What is the position to-day? Though this new introduction was made as long ago as 20 years, to-day, on the finding of the Committee, the British mills—and I am not in the least desiring to attack their efficiency and capacity of management—in their total production of wrapping paper only produce 4 per cent. in the form of this increasingly popular paper. Small wonder is it, looking the facts in the face, that the public which wants Kraft, turns to the quarters from which it can be obtained as rapidly and as easily as possible, and that these mills which can manufacture Kraft—and it is part of the case made to-day that they can do so—and which have not taken the opportunity to do so, find themselves in declining favour. It is not surprising at all. I am very much struck by what is stated by the Committee regarding this fact. They say, in their remarks on the efficiency of the industry of this country, that on the whole they think it is reasonably efficient, according to the general standard of efficiency. They go on to say that they think the industry has considerable staying power, and they note that the mills in this country which have shown the greatest staying power are those which concentrate on the manufacture of Kraft. What does that show? It tends to show—I do not say conclusively —that there lies the secret of the decline in the prosperity of the British mills. In face of an admitted public want, they have gone on on the old-fashioned lines supplying articles useful in themselves but not meeting the supreme demand of the moment for a paper which Scandinavia principally supplies. I may be right or wrong, but I read that as the principal explanation, and, if I am right about it, I find great difficulty in saying that in such circumstances the British paper industry is entitled to come to this House and ask for a special protection.

That is one aspect of the matter. The other aspect, which has been dealt with in the Debate, is the effect of this proposal on other industries. I was astonished, I confess, to hear observations made during the course of the Debate critical of the argument that you ought to look at these other industries and see what is the effect upon them of this proposal. It seems to me that all the industries affected have an equal claim to consideration, whether they have been established long or only for a little while, and the Committee ought to take care to safeguard if possible those which have been established largely as the results of individual enterprise and initiative, and are carrying on a successful competitive export trade at the present time. Why should you throw that away and disregard them? I fail to follow that argument the more, because this very Committee whose Report is so full and careful, has recognised the difficulty of the situation by saying that this proposal will affect a very wide circle of trade. They observe that they cannot say where it will stop, and that you cannot isolate the consequences. They add further that it undoubtedly will act harshly with regard to the export trades affected. In those circumstances, is it right for this House seriously to pass this proposal without securing to those other trades which are equally entitled to consideration, reasonable safeguards?

May I give one small illustration? It is small, but I make no apology for giving it, because this particular industry has been recently started with considerable enterprise, and with confidence that fair treatment would be meted out to those who are promoting it. In my constituency, there is an industry which produces twine out of paper, and it has laid down in the last few years a plant capable of turning out 15 tons of this material a week. It is hopeful of being able to do a good business, and it is at any rate at the present time proceeding in that direction. Its manufactures are really quite remarkable. I can indicate some of them by holding them up—string and twine of all kinds, and yarn. What do they make these out of? Do they make them out of anything which the British paper mills produce? No. I say that on the information I have, and I have every reason to think that is so. They make them out of Swedish paper brought straight to Preston, landed at the docks, and sent to the mills. Why do they get it from Sweden? The first reason is because they cannot get it in this country, and the second is that if they could, judging by the analogy of the trade, the prices they would have to pay would be £5 to £8 a ton dearer.

Small wonder is it, then, that the promoters of that industry, with their struggling trade, who have made their way chiefly by their initiative, look with great misgiving to the future. They say emphatically that this proposal will be disastrous. I do not know whether that is right or wrong. It has been said by the Board of Trade on other occasions, and it may be with justice, that all this is so much exaggeration. Allow a lot for that and that the suggestion that the trade is going to be killed is a great exaggeration, yet what right, I say, has this House to injure that trade in these circumstances? When you are going to benefit the paper industry, as the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine) recited, surely you must take into consideration the effect on these other industries, the extent and measure of which you have no means of judging, and to which you may do harm. I apologise for having spoken so long, but I only wish to add that, exercising the very best judgment I can, this is a proposal which, as it stands, I am afraid I cannot support. But I do hope the Board of Trade, who are the trustees for the trade of this country, will consider even at this moment—or if they have been considering them will consider them again—the interests which are affected outside the actual trade which is seeking this protection.

Last autumn some of us were considerably surprised when the promised Wrapping Paper Duty we had anticipated did not materialise. The plates and dishes for the Protectionist feast were set, but when the covers were removed the refreshing fare to which the Protectionist had been looking forward did not materialise. Many of us wondered why that was the case. The speeches to which we have listened this afternoon from the hon. Members for York (Sir J. Marriott), Moss Side (Mr. G. Hurst), Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson), and Preston (Mr. A. K. Kennedy) provide an explanation of that wonder, for they have riddled the proposals in this Clause and shown the injury which it will do to British industries. We can only suppose that the President of the Board of Trade, in spite of this opposition which he must have foreseen, has at last plucked up his courage and decided to risk it.

I used to know a magistrate who proceeded on this principle: When a prisoner was brought before him and the evidence of his innocence was completely demonstrated, he discharged the prisoner. When the evidence of his guilt was completely demonstrated, he gave him a severe sentence. When he was not quite sure whether the prisoner did commit the offence or not, he gave him a sentence, but a light one. I think that is the policy which has been adopted in this ease. When this inquiry was promoted it was expected that if it was successful the paper making trade would be given a protection, as in the other cases brought forward last autumn, of 33⅓ per cent. If we read paragraph 66 of the Report, which deals with the principal finding of the Committee, we shall not be surprised that, like the magistrate, they have only given a partial verdict for imposing a duty on this industry. Paragraph 66 says—and this is practically the operative Clause in the Report:

They buy 90 per cent. of their own paper, so they would naturally be satisfied.

That is not the case the hon. Member put up when he was speaking. He made statements with regard to this co-operative factory which are not correct, and those are the ones I am now correcting. He also said, you have to look at the whole of this matter in proportion. That is exactly what the opponents of this desire to do. Those who are advocating these duties, when they come to an industry they wish to have protected, see it as a whole. When they come to the industries which are going to be injured by this Clause, instead of seeing the injury as a whole they bring it down to so much a box or so much a lb. or something of that kind, and in that way attempt to minimise the injury they are doing.

The hon. Member for East Dorset gave us one or two illustrations of that method of argument. In order to reduce to comparative insignificance the injury done to the chocolate trade, for instance, he worked it out in this way, that it was going to cost at the worst a penny per employé per week, and in that way he thought he was destroying the argument of injury to the trade. But supposing instead of taking it on that footing he took it on a quite different basis. Take the chocolate industry, which I believe employs something like 45,000 employés. Instead of a penny a week, if you put it in the form of £10,000 a year injury to the firm, you have something which is not so negligible and which is a perfectly legitimate argument to oppose to this proposal.

I will come to that point in a moment. I want, first of all, to put it on its proper basis instead of looking at it in this ridiculous way, and see what it amounts to in a year.

What what amounts to in a year? What is the basis of the £10,000? Is the hon. Member's assumption that the whole of the duty is going to be paid by the firm?

I am simply following the methods adopted by the hon. Member for East Dorset. It is his reckoning, and not mine. He reckoned that the loss on a certain assumption that he made might be a penny a week per employé. It is on that basis that I say it would be £10,000 a year. It is not my basis, and I refer the hon. Member for Barnstaple to the Hon. Member for East Dorset. It is quite true that the industry is making £200,000, but this duty on paper is only one thing. Of course, it is true that anyone who seeks protection for his own industry, by spreading the cost over the whole community, will do a small injury to a large number of people and gain a considerable advantage himself, but when that is applied on a wider scale and larger numbers of industries are protected and those small injuries are again spread one after another on the industries of the country, then you get an effect comparable in each case. When you pass from this chocolate industry to industries where the use of paper is concerned, you get a much larger proportion of their profits taken away and, in effect, when you take the whole of the injurious result, it may be equal, it may be larger or it may be nearly as great, but, at any rate, it is quite comparable with the advantage that comes to this industry.

Hon. Members who have spoken on that side of the House have called upon the President of the Board of Trade to make concessions in this matter. He has put forward a proposal which is limited in extent. It is limited in time, it is limited in amount and it is limited in extent. We had yesterday an example of what happens when a period of time has come to an end. Yesterday was the Protectionists' paradise. We had the original five years extended to 15 in all, we had an amount in one case of 33⅓ per cent. extended to 50 per cent., and we had the items concerned increased and extended in various ways. Although the Committee said this was a matter for watching, and was experimental, and its effects should be watched, the President of the Board of Trade has already thrown all that over. He told us frankly that if a Conservative Government is in when this five years elapses, and he is then President of the Board of Trade, he will extend it for a further 10 years, so that so far as he is concerned it is going to be no experiment.

I am not professing to quote the right hon. Gentlemen's exact words, but that was the effect produced on me, and when they are read I think it will be found that that is what he said. If that is so, he has thrown over the experiment of watching which the Committee recommended, and I feel quite confident that he will adopt that line of argument. What is the form these concessions will take, the only concessions of any value that can be given? They must take the form of protecting the finished products of which this paper is a raw material. The great danger of protecting an article which is in any sense a raw material is fully recognised because if you protect the raw material, and do not protect the finished product you are injuring the manufacturer of the finished product. The concessions that must be made, either now or at the end of the five years, must take the form of further protection of all those articles in which this paper remains a raw material. Even when the right hon. Gentleman has put on all these consequential protections, as he will have to do sooner or later if this is upheld, he has not met the whole of the case. He has then to deal with the whole complicated question of drawbacks and all the complicated issues which arise from attempting to estimate how much paper enters into the composition of these further manufacturers. It is because I see in this not only an evil in itself, because I see in the extensions which, in my view, must follow, if the President of the Board of Trade is going to be logical, further and further avenues of Protection that I call on the Committee to reject the Clause.

The Committee will no doubt wish me to say something in reply to the points that have been raised. In the first place, having regard to the general discussion on the effect on employment of this Measure, I may refer the Committee to Clause 64 of the Report where they say: In the early stages of the Debate, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith (Captain Benn) very angrily referred to something I said yesterday about a certain firm and accused me of vulgarity. I hope I did not say anything stronger than I should have done, and I did not intend to be vulgar. I was merely using it as an example of the kind of thing that actuates opponents of these schemes all through. What troubled me was that in his charge of vulgarity he associated my right hon. Friend with me. Well, I want to make it quite clear at once that my right hon. Friend knew nothing of the letter I quoted—he had never seen it, and he did not know I was going to refer to it. A great deal has been said about the confectionery trade, and Members, notably the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott), have asked for concessions. The Committee heard the evidence of the manufacturing confectioners and came to the conclusion that as far as the export trade was concerned, the adverse effect of the duty would not be serious and that as far as the home trade was concerned, it might be regarded as negligible. One very large firm of confectioners which was mentioned by the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine) admitted that only about one-fifth of their paper came from foreign sources. It is not possible for the Government to grant the concessions asked for by the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott).

The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) stressed the point that in this country we are paying a higher rate of wages than most Continental countries. So we are, and the result is that the share of overhead charges carried by each unit of production is so heavy that we are losing ground in our trade. That is an important consideration in a Measure of this kind. By stimulating trade we hope to lower the proportion of overhead charges carried by each unit of production. The hon. Member for Moss Side (Mr. Hurst) and others spoke about the taxing of raw materials, and urged the Government to be very careful what they did in that direction. It must be remembered that the biggest users of this class of paper are supporters of the duty. One hon. Member suggested that we should exclude from the scope of the duty all paper imported for further manufacture into certain articles; but there appears to be no ground upon which that exclusion can be made. If the suggestion were accepted, it would appear necessary to extend the exclusion to all paper imported for other manufactures. The Committee of Inquiry after hearing evidence from those concerned, including the manufacturers of paper bags, paper matting, and so on, recommended that the duty should be imposed on wrapping paper generally, irrespective of the purpose for which it was intended to be used. The Paper Bag Manufacturers' Federation agree to the duty.

The duty now proposed will cover all paper of this class, whether it may be called raw material or otherwise. The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) stressed the point of wages. It is important that we should keep the question of wages before us, but at the same time we must not lose sight of the fact that under the White Paper it is the whole condition of the industry that the Committee have to inquire into. Along with wages there are the questions of hours of work, and the hours of working of the mill, which are very considerably longer on the Continent than they are here, running up to 160 hours a week in some cases. [HON. MEMBERS: "What! "] I have not the exact figures, but I think the hours run up to 150 and 160 hours a week in some cases. [HON. MEMBERS: "For workers?"] No, for the mills. I am speaking of the mill hours, and I say that that must be taken into consideration besides the working hours of the workpeople, because it has a marked effect upon the question of competition. One hon. Member referred to the effect on labels and tickets, but I am advised that in most cases the raw material used for these articles is over 90 lbs. to the ream, and so is not dutiable. The effect of any duty to the consumer, so far as the confectionery trade is concerned, will be infinitesimal. I have not been in the least swayed by what has been said in the Debate to-day. We have had a very wide discussion, and I hope the Committee will now think that it is time we brought the general discussion to a close.

In spite of the close attention which has been given to this subject by the experts on both sides of the House, I find myself in an almost impossible position in regard to casting my vote. Just as in the case of the Lace Duties last year, I see no reason why anyone who represents a mainly working-class constituency, not interested in this particular industry, should take the trouble to walk through the Lobby and vote either way on this issue. As always happens in this House when we discuss the protection of any industry, one section of the House finds all the industries that will be benefited, and another section finds the industries that will be injured, and then we have a long argument as to whether one industry will be benefited the most or which will be the most injured. I suggest that the Committees which are sitting take the wrong line of approach from the point of view of the majority of the workers in this country. We are not so much interested in what it is proposed to do in one industry or another industry for dividends; we are interested in the effect that any particular proposal is going to have on the people who are engaged earning their living in the industry.

The Government should be an impartial body standing between the industries that will benefit and the industries that will suffer, and they ought to weigh them in the balance. The only way in which they can do that is to bring in a much more searching test of these industries and their position. When industries, whether in lace or paper, ask for a complete or partial monopoly the Government have a right to say to them, "If we give you this, what benefit are you going to give to us and to the people"? Such industries ought to be asked whether they have adequate machinery; what profits they are making; what wages they are paying now and what wages they will pay when they get the Protection, and whether they would guarantee a certain price at which they would continue to supply their commodities to the consumer. Do hon. Members opposite who take an imperial rather than a commercial view of this matter, think that there is anything in this particular pet panacea for industry which they are always bringing forward? Is it not worth while for them to get some guarantees for the producer and the consumer that these protective tariffs will not be used as a gamble at the expense of the workers and the producers.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Apart from the paper industry, there is one great industry interested in this question, and that is the great textile industry of Lancashire. If we pass this Duty it will inflict an injury on the great merchants in Manchester and on the manufacturers. We use hundreds of thousands of tons of paper to wrap our goods when we send them to the Manchester warehouses, and at the warehouses they use a great deal of paper in packing the goods to send then abroad. If foreign paper were prohibited we could not get sufficient paper in this country to fulfil our requirements to-day. This paper is the raw material for the manufacturer and shipper just as much as cotton is. If we are going to tax raw material, I do not know where we are going to stop. I am speaking as a Free Trader, but one who is in favour of and who would vote for the Safeguarding of Industries. What I understand by the Safeguarding of Industries is that where you have a large trade in this country whose works are fully and scientifically equipped, and where that trade is attacked by foreign competition which pays lower wages and works longer hours, that trade is entitled to be safeguarded.

We have heard this afternoon that the paper makers are not efficiently equipped, that their machinery is antiquated; and, if that is so, I contend that the case cannot come under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Unless the President of the Board of Trade can see his way to adopt some of the suggestions which have been made on this side this afternoon, I shall, very reluctantly, have to go into the Lobby against this proposal.

Might I appeal to the Committee to come to a decision? We have an arrangement with regard to these discussions which has been most loyally observed in all parts of the Committee. It is an arrangement for the general convenience of the Committee, and the Government have allotted the time in a way which they consider will be most convenient to the whole House. After the general discussion

which has taken place on the principle, I hope we may now take a decision on the matter, and I appeal to the Committee to do so.

Question put, "That the words 'five years' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 140.

Division No. 258.]

AYES.

[7.48 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Everard, W. Lindsay

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Albery, Irving James

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

MacIntyre, Ian

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Centr'l)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Fermoy, Lord

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Fielden, E. B.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Finburgh, S.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Atholl, Duchess of

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Malone, Major P. B.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Margesson, Captain D.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Meller, R. J

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Fraser, Captain Ian

Merriman, F. B.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Fremantie, Lieut. -Colonel Francis E.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Bethel, A.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Betterton, Henry B.

Gower, Sir Robert

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Gretton, Colonel John

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Braithwaite. A. N.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Briggs, J. Harold

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Briscoe, Richard George

Hanbury, C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Neville, R. J.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Harland, A.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Bullock, Captain M.

Haslam, Henry C.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Eurgoyne, Lieut. -Colonel Sir Alan

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Burman J. B.

Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxford, Henley)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Philipson, Mabel

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Plelou, D. P.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hills, Major John Walter

Pildltch, Sir Philip

Cassels, J. D.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Preston, William

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Radford, E. A.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Ralne, W.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Ramsden, E.

Chapman, Sir S.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Christie, J. A.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Remnant, Sir James

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whlteh'n)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Clayton, G. C.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hurd, Percy A.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midl'n & Peebles)

Ropner, Major L.

Cooper, A. Duff

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Couper, J. B.

Jacob, A. E.

Salmon, Major I.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cowan Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

Jephcott, A. R.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Savery, S. S.

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Lamb, J. Q.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrow. W)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts. Westb'y)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Shepperson, E. W.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Loder, J. de V.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Looker, Herbert William

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)

Lougher, L.

Smithers, Waldron

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Dixey, A. C.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lumley, L. R.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Ellis, R. G.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Withers, John James

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wells, S. R.

Wolmer, Viscount

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Womersley, W. J.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Tinne, J. A.

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Trycn, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Major Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.

Waddington, R.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hardle, George D.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Harris, Percy A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Riley, Ben

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Hayday, Arthur

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Atkinson, C.

Hayes, John Henry

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Attlee, Clement Richard

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scrymgeour, E.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Scurr, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth. Abertillery)

Hirst, G. H.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Barr, J.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Broad, F. A

Hurst, Gerald B.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bromfield, William

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)

Bromley, J.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stamford, T. W.

Clowes, S.

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, T.

Sutton, J. E.

Connolly, M.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Taylor, R. A.

Cove, W. G.

Kenyon, Barnet

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kirkwood, D.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lawrence, Susan

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Dalton, Hugh

Lawson, John James

Thurtle, E.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lee, F.

Tinker, John Joseph

Day, Colonel Harry

Livingstone, A. M.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Dennison, R.

Lowth, T.

Varley, Frank B.

Duncan, C.

Lunn, William

Viant, S. P.

Dunnico, H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mackinder, W.

Warne, G. H.

Fenby, T. D.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Forrest, W.

March, S.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Gardner, J. P.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Montague, Frederick

Welsh, J. C.

Gibbins, Joseph

Morris, R. H.

Westwood, J.

Gillett, George M.

Morrison, H. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gosling, Harry

Murnin, H.

Wiggins, William Martin

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Naylor, T. E.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Greenall, T.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Oliver, George Harold

Wright, W.

Groves, T.

Owen, Major G.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Grundy, T. W.

Palln, John Henry

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A. Barnes.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Potts, John S.

I beg to move, page 7, line 43, to leave out the words "sixteen and two-thirds," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."

I am moving this Amendment formally. I feel sure most people will agree with me that whatever tax is placed on any article coming into this country the consumer has to pay it. It is because of that, and because of the present conditions under which the people of this country are living at the moment, that I move this Amendment.

I thought the President of the Board of Trade would have said something on this Amendment; and I cannot think that he is not going to reply to it. Will he give us any guarantee that 16⅔ is the last word, or does he propose to increase this duty, as he has in other cases, at another time?

I did not rise because the arrangement was that we should take a general discussion on the merits of the proposals on the Amendment we have just debated. A complete answer to the question of the hon. and gallant Member is that he is being asked to vote for 16⅔.

I beg pardon. It was understood that there should be a general discussion on the first Amendment, but I specifically asked whether we should be entitled to put detailed questions relating to further Amendments as they were reached. I desire to ask whether 16⅔ is the last word on this matter?

I think one thing the hon. and gallant Gentleman would insist upon is this, that it would be most improper in fiscal or any other matters to bind future Parliaments.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 135.

Division No. 259.]

AYES.

[8.0 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Eden, Captain Anthony

Loder, J. de V.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Looker, Herbert William

Albery, Irving James

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Lougher, L.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Ellis, R. G.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Luce, Major-Gen. sir Richard Harman

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Lumley, L. R.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Atholl, Duchess of

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Fermoy, Lord

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Fielden, E. B.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Finburgh, S.

MacIntyre, Ian

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Bethel. A.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Betterton, Henry B.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Malone, Major P. B.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ganzoni, Sir John

Margesson, Captain D.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gower, Sir Robert

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Braithwaite, A. N.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Meller, R. J.

Briqgs, J. Harold

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Merriman, F. B.

Briscoe, Richard George

Gretton, Colonel John

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Grotrian, H. Brent

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hall, Capt. W. D A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hanbury, C.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Bullock, Captain M.

Harland, A.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Burman, J. B.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Morrison-Bell. Sir Arthur Clive

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Harvey, Major s. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Butt, Sir Alfred

Haslam, Henry C.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Cassels, J. D.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Neville, R. J.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Henderson, Lieut. -Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hills, Major John Walter

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Chapman, Sir S.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Christie, J. A.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Holland, Sir Arthur

Philipson, Mabel

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Pielou, D. P.

Clarry, Reginald George

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Clayton, G. C.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Preston, William

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Radford, E. A.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Raine, W.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hume, Sir G. H.

Ramsden, E.

Couper, J. B.

Hunter-Weston Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hurd, Percy A.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Remnant, Sir James

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Jacob, A. E.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Jephcott, A. R.

Ropner, Major L.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Salmon, Major I.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Lamb, J. Q.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Sandon, Lord

Dixey, A. C.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Shepperson, E. W.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Sinclair. Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wise, Sir Fredric

Smithers, Waldron

Tinne, J. A.

Withers, John James

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Wolmer, Viscount

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Womersley, W. J.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Waddington, R.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Storry-Deans, R

Watts, Dr. T.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Wells, S. R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Major Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

NOES.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hardle, George D.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ammon, Charles George

Harris. Percy A.

Riley, Ben

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Atkinson, C.

Hayday, Arthur

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayes, John Henry

Scrymgeour, E.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scurr, John

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Barr, J.

Hirst, G. H.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sinclair, Major Sir A, (Caithness)

Broad, F. A.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromfield, William

Hurst, Gerald B.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Bromley, J.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Buchanan, G.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Charleton. H. C.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stamford, T. W.

Clowes, S.

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, T.

Sutton. J. E.

Connolly, M.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Taylor, R. A.

Cove, W. G.

Kenyon, Barnet

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kirkwood, D.

Thorne, G. B. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Dalton, Hugh

Lawrence, Susan

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lawson, John James

Thurtle, E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lee, F.

Tinker, John Joseph

Dennison, R.

Livingstone, A. M.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Duncan, C.

Lowth, T.

Varley, Frank B.

Dunnico, H.

Lunn, William

Viant, S. P.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Walsh. Rt. Hon. Stephen.

Fenby, T. D.

Mackinder. W.

Warne, G. H.

Forrest, W.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Gardner, J. P.

March, S.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Montague, Frederick

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gibbins, Joseph

Morris, R. H.

Welsh, J. C.

Gillett, George M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Westwood, J.

Gosling, Harry

Murnin, H.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Naylor, T. E.

Wiggins, William Martin

Greenall, T.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, George Harold

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Owen, Major G.

Wright, W.

Groves, T.

Palin, John Henry

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Grundy, T. W.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. A. Barnes.

The next Amendment on the Paper—In page 8, line 6, after the second word "paper," to insert the words "but excluding all packing or wrapping paper imported for the sole purpose of the manufacture in Great Britain or Northen Ireland of carpets, matting, twine, boxes, and bags"—is out of place. A proposal of this kind should come in Sub-section (2). The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nail)—in page 8, line 14, to leave out the word "one-sixth," and to insert instead thereof the word "one-half"—I think is out of order, because it will increase the charge.

I respectfully submit that the Amendment would not increase the charge, but would extend the charge to other articles.

"Provided that there shall be allowed and paid in the case of any manufactured or made-up article exported from Great Britain or Northern Ireland, and consisting wholly or partly of paper subject to the duty imposed by this Section, a drawback equal to the amount shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to have been paid as duty on the paper used or wasted in the manufacture of the article."

As this matter has been raised in general Debate, and as the Government can make no concession in this direction, I do not propose to move the Amendment.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether you reserve a later Amendment in my name, to add a new Sub-section?

Yes. The Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) deals with a slightly different point, and in any case, as it has not been moved, the hon. Member's Amendment is certainly not prejudiced.

In order to get a Division on the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham, I beg to move formally, in page 8, line 15, at the end, to insert the words

"Provided that there shall be allowed and paid in the case of any manufactured or made-up article exported from Great Britain or Northern Ireland, and consisting wholly or partly of paper subject to the duty imposed by this Section, a drawback equal to the amount shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to have been paid as duty on the paper used or wasted in the manufacture of the article."

This Amendment is purely in the interests of the export trade. It asks that the man who sends articles out to compete with foreigners should be put in a position of parity with his foreign competitor. There should be no two opinions about the merits of the Amendment. In every other duty that we have proposed, in the Silk Duty, for example, there were most elaborate arrangements made for rebate. Why should this demand be treated with so much contempt, and why should hon. Gentlemen opposite not be prepared to support the Amendment on its merits? Neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the President of the Board of Trade is present, but they might have left authority with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to deal with the matter. There should be no handicap on our exports. I ask the Financial Secretary seriously to consider the matter, and either give a pledge or accept the Amendment.

I do not quite know what are the grounds of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's complaint. He appears to think that I am showing some undue reluctance in expressing my view. I was quite prepared, as soon as the Amendment was moved, to state what was the attitude of the Government. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has had a great deal of experience in Debates on the safeguarding duties, and therefore he must be well aware that the sort of drawback which is proposed in this Amendment is entirely inapplicable to the particular duty proposed in this Clause. The drawback which is allowed under this Clause is exactly the same everywhere as the drawback which is allowed on all the safeguarding duties and the key industry duties. They have all a drawback which is expressed in the Section of the Act which is incorporated in Subsection (3) of this Clause. It is in these terms: and that that has been converted into a manufactured article. How they can satisfy themselves as to the amount of duty paid on the paper that was used in that manufacture, and not only that— that is conceivable—but that they should also be able to say how much paper has been wasted in that manufacture, is entirely beyond the wit of man.

It does not rest there. The hon. and gallant Gentleman appears to have forgotten—though I should have thought the circumstances must have burned themselves into his consciousness—that these duties have no countervailing duties of Excise. There is no countervailing Excise duty and, consequently, if drawbacks were to be paid to the manufacturer of the articles on the basis of the amount of material that was used in the manufacture, it would be necessary in some way or other to determine whether the material used had paid duty under the Clause or whether the article was made of British-produced raw material. That would be an absolutely impossible thing for any person to do. It is for that reason that in all cases where there is an ad valorem duty on a specific article, the drawback is in the form which I have just indicated to the Committee. There is no analogy between these duties and duties on commodities like sugar or silk or any of the other articles in regard to which there is a specific duty payable on the material by weight. There, of course, it is comparatively easy and it is not necessary to follow the individual article and identify it and see that it is the same article as that which paid duty when it was introduced. All you have to say is, "Here are so many pounds weight of duty-paid material going out of the country. It must have paid duty, because there is a countervailing Excise duty in any case payable, and duty-free material is excluded." It is a comparatively simple matter to say, "So much weight of duty-paid material is being exported. We know it must have paid duty in some form or another, either Excise or Customs," and it is then quite easy to allow the appropriate drawback upon the amount to be exported.

That is the reason why there is a difference in this case. If we were to accept this Amendment, not only would it be completely unworkable, but you would have to accept the plain word of every person who was claiming a drawback-that he had used or wasted so much material in the course of the manufacture of the article, and that the whole of the material used or wasted was imported material which had paid duty. You would have to accept all that on the unsupported and uncorroborated word of the person who sought the drawback. I have no-desire to make any general attack on the honesty of the British people. I am sure the great majority of people are honest but I do not think anybody will suggest that you could have a system of taxation, resting solely upon a voluntary basis of that sort, without any method of checking the bona fides of the claims made. Therefore, I think it would be impossible to allow, in this one instance, an inroad to be made upon the sytsem of drawbacks applicable to all these duties. If for any reason, which one cannot at present seer we were compelled to make an exception in this particular case, I do not know how it would be possible to resist similar claims to have drawbacks of the same sort applied to every other duty which is a safeguarding duty and not a revenue duty. Whatever difference of opinion may exist about the merits of the duty, the Committee have accepted it, and I do not think they will regard it as unreasonable that we should stick to this method of drawback rather than the one proposed in the Amendment.

We have just heard a most extraordinary statement from the Financial Secretary. I gather that if one imports paper, and does not give employment to a single person, except in a warehouse, and then exports the paper, one can claim a drawback; but if one imports, paper, and employs British labour in working it up into a manufactured article and exports that article, one may not claim a drawback. That is the most extraordinary conclusion I have ever heard drawn in these arguments. We are told it will be extraordinarily difficult to trace out these matters. Let me use the illustration of the firm referred to by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. A. R. Kennedy). He produced to the Committee samples of twine made from imported paper. This firm states definitely that the only suitable paper it can get for the making of this twine is imported paper- Under these proposals duty must be paid upon it. Surely, it is easy for the Customs to ascertain what is the weight of paper on which that firm has paid duty, and what is the weight of the manufactured article on which it claims rebate, and to form some reasonable idea as to the amount of wastage involved in the manufacturing process. It is the most ordinary thing in the world in far more complicated trades to ascertain how much of the finished product you can get from a given weight of the raw material. I cannot accept the argument that there is any great difficulty involved. The effect of the duty is almost comic. If you import the article, as I say, without giving a single person employment and export it again you are entitled to a rebate; but if you import it and give work and make an extremely fine product and export that product, you are not entitled to a rebate and you are placed in an invidious position in comparison with the foreign exporters of the same material. I cannot understand the Government decision. The Amendment is a simple and clear and fair request and, apart from all views on Protection and Free Trade, is eminently reasonable.

Would it not be possible to provide that any firm operating to the extent of £5,000— or some figure of that sort—and exporting to that extent, should be able to claim a drawback? I see the difficulty raised by the Financial Secretary. On small export orders it would be difficult for the Customs officers to find out how much had been imported as duty-paid material, but in the case of large corporations operating on a big scale, I suggest it might be possible to meet the point raised by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Another point is that where articles are exported in great quantities, the price can be cut very close, but where the export is on a small

scale the price cannot be cut very closely because it is impossible to manufacture on a small scale for a low price. Perhaps it would be possible, if the subject were investigated on those lines, to meet the objection in regard to the major portion of our export trade.

I do not see how it is possible to meet the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, because he-ignores, if I may say so, the main difficulty, which I was perhaps not so fortunate as to make the right hon. Gentleman opposite understand, but, as I endeavoured to explain, the main difficulty here is that, there being no Excise Duty, there is nothing to show that there has been any duty paid, and unless you accept the mere unsupported word of the person who claims the drawback, there is nothing to show that any duty has been paid. I am afraid that the difficulty would be insuperable in the case put by my hon. and gallant Friend.

How will this manufacturer of paper get his paper without paying a duty? If a tax is put on, and if he pays duty, surely there is some record of it.

There is nothing to show it. I do not know even who the gentleman is, and I am only taking this as an example, and not making any personal application of it at all, but in that particular case how do we know that it is true that he cannot manufacture his commodity without imported paper? It is quite as easy for somebody else to come along and ask for a drawback. He would say: "I cannot make it except out of imported paper," and we should have to accept his word, but how do we know it is true?

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 217.

Division No. 260.]

AYES.

[8.28 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Broad, F. A.

Compton, Joseph

Ammon, Charles George

Bromfield, William

Connolly, M.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Bromley, J.

Cove, W. G.

Atkinson, C.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Dalton, Hugh

Attlee, Clement Richard

Buchanan, G.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Day, Colonel Harry

Barnes, A.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Dennison, R.

Barr, J.

Cape, Thomas

Duncan, C,

Batey, Joseph

Charleton, H. C.

Dunnico, H.

Bean, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Clowes, S.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Fenby, T. D.

Kennedy, T.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Forrest, W.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Gardner, J. P.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Gibbins, Joseph

Lawrence, Susan

Snell, Harry

Gillett, George M

Lawson, John James

Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip

Gosling, Harry

Lee, F.

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Livingstone, A. M.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Greenall, T.

Lowth, T.

Stamford, T. W.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lunn, William

Stephen, Campbell

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Sutton, J. E.

Groves, T.

Mackinder, W.

Taylor, R. A.

Grundy, T. W.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

March, S.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Thurtle, E.

Hardle, George D.

Montague, Frederick

Tinker, John Joseph

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Hayday, Arthur

Murnin, H.

Varley, Frank B.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Naylor, T. E.

Viant, S. P.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Oliver, George Harold

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Hirst, G. H.

Owen, Major G.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Palin, John Henry

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Welsh, J. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Potts, John S.

Westwood, J.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Riley, Ben

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Rose, Frank H.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Scrymgeour, E.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Scurr, John

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Mr. Warne and Mr. Hayes.

Kelly, W. T.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

NOES.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Albery, Irving James

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Hume, Sir G. H.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hurd, Percy A.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Atholl, Duchess of

Dawson, Sir Philip

Jacob, A. E.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Dixey, A. C.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Jephcott, A. R.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Bethel, A.

Everard, W. Lindsay

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Betterton, Henry B.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lamb, J. Q.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fermoy, Lord

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Braithwaite, A. N.

Fielden, E. B.

Looker, Herbert William

Briggs, J. Harold

Finburgh, S.

Lougher, L.

Briscoe, Richard George

Ford, Sir P. J.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Brittain, Sir Harry

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harmin

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Lumley, L. R.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Ganzoni, Sir John

MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Burman, J. B.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Grotrian, H. Brent

MacIntyre, Ian

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

McLean, Major A.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Macmillan Captain H.

Cassels, J. D.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hanbury, C.

Malone, Major P. B.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Harland, A.

Margesson, Capt. D.

Chapman, Sir S.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Meller, R. J.

Christie, J. A.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Merriman, F. B.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Clarry, Reginald George

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Clayton, G. C.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Cooper, A. Duff

Hills, Major John Walter

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Cope, Major William

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Couper, J. B.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Murchison, C. K.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hope, Sir Harry (Fortar)

Neville, R. J.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Sandon, Lord

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Tinne, J. A.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Pielou, D. P.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Waddington, R.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Shepperson, E. W.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Preston William

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Watts, Dr. T.

Radford, E. A.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wells, S. R.

Raine, W.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Ramsden, E.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wilson. Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Remnant, Sir James

Storry-Deans, R.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Womersley, W. J.

Ropner, Major L.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Salmon, Major I.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Captain Bowyer and Captain Viscount Curzon.

The next two Amendments—in page 8, line 17, after the first word "paper," insert the words "which is used for bread wrapping purposes," and in page 8, line 17, after the third word "paper," insert the words "which is used as lining for strawboard or other board and paper"—are out of Order, because they increase the charge.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper," to insert the words "vulcanising paper."

This Amendment would never have reached the Order Paper, had not a very strange letter been received by the London Chamber of Commerce, presenting an even more strange list of things which were to be taxed under this Clause. I should like to read an extract from this letter: converted by a chemical process into vulcanised fibre. There is no connection, directly or indirectly, with wrapping paper, or, indeed, with paper at all, except that it takes the form of paper. This is made from pure cotton cellulose. Nothing else would do. If you put it into water, it would dissolve almost like blotting-paper. There is no strength in it. It is an essential raw material, for a very important and rapidly developing industry in this country. This paper, through the skill of British workmen, is converted into insulating tubes through which electric power is conducted. This material, vulcanised fibre, I believe, has almost a thousand different properties. It is used in escalators on the tubes. I have said on a previous occasion that this is nothing short of tomfoolery. The vulcanised fibre-makers applied to the Board of Trade three years ago for a committee to inquire into the possibility of giving them protection under the safeguarding procedure. The committee sat, and heard the evidence and decided emphatically to give no protection. Now this Board of Trade comes along and says, "We will not give you protection on your finished article, but we are going to tax your raw material." I venture to hope that even this Board of Trade will accept this Amendment; if not, they will make themselves look particularly ridiculous.

I was interested to hear what the hon. Gentleman said about vulcanising paper, because I know he is an expert in the trade. I am advised that it is produced in this country. Am I right in that?

Of course, that is one of our reasons for inserting it here It is produced in this country, and used for making the insulating material known as vulcanised fibre, and is in competition with the vulcanised fibre imported from the United States and other places. We are advised that this material comes under the head of packing and wrapping paper.

There are people in the trade who are advising the Board of Trade on this matter. I want the Committee to remember that it has been agreed between four important associations having to do with paper, for the purpose of guidance in this matter—

( rapping a hard piece of material on the back of the bench in front of him ): Would you call this paper?

It is made of that material. I would not call my boot cow ( pointing to his boot ).

It is in order to produce an exhibit in the House, but it is not in order in Debate to attempt any musical demonstration.

I would say that it is a material which, if it comes within the description of "packing and wrapping paper," is dutiable, no matter in what form it is presented. I have seen the beautiful things the hon. Gentleman has in his pocket—things which look about as much like wrapping paper as steel looks like wrapping paper. But, no matter what the substance is, or by what chemical process it is made, the article, if it is made of wrapping paper, comes within the duty under this Bill.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise how ridiculous is the argument he has put forward? Does he realise that the Government have refused to give any measure of Protection to the finished article Where we are suffering—if you like—from foreign competition? Yet they desire to tax the raw material. If this were Protection for the finished article, I could understand it.

Has the Customs duty been collected since 1st May, and, if so, by whose authority? It would be of interest to know where the control lies in respect to this matter.

Are we to understand, in regard to the special classes of paper that are finally put into this list, that the Board of Trade are guided entirely by the advice of trades that are interested, and that there is no advice given by any qualified person on the Board? That is the impression left by what the Parliamentary Secretary has said—that the matter is entirely handed over to the trades concerned, that they make up a list, and that the Board of Trade simply take it from the trades interested as to what goods are and are not to be dutiable? In that case it seems to me that articles on the border line may be slipped into the list if trades thought it to their interest to slip them it. We have had no explanation of any sort in this regard, and I should like to know whether things have a chance of getting into the list which never ought to be there.

A detailed and supplementary list has been drawn up for the guidance of the Customs, under the advice of the Stationery Office expert and with the assistance given by four of the great industries concerned. I refer to the Union of Wrapping Paper Makers, the National Association of Wholesale Stationers and Paper Merchants, the British Paper Bag Federation, and the Federation of Master Printers. These trades have been taken into consultation, and the list finally arranged is accepted by these four trades. In further reply let me say that the paper is subject to the tax in whatever form, though it may bear as much resemblance to paper as the leather in my boot does to the hide of cow.

Under the Bowles Act the Government are entitled to impose an old duty from the time of its passing in Ways and Means. How under this Bill will the matter stand in relation to a new duty? It is not quite fair to the traders that they should not know exactly what is their legal obligation. We are not discussing what is going to happen to-morrow or the day after. We are discussing what has been done since the 1st May. The Parliamentary Secretary now tells us that without any authority from Parliament, and in consultation with the people who stand to make money by the imposition of the duty, a list has been prepared, and the traders are asked to pay the duty according to that list. Not only have they prepared a list, but they are extremely uncertain as to what ought or what ought not to come into the list. Take for illustration sand paper and emery paper—

I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that what we are now discussing is the question of the inclusion of vulcanising paper. I am afraid he is getting rather away from that point.

I think the point ought to be cleared up as to what is and what is not to be allowed in the list, and I really intended to save time in making the remarks I have made. It is essential to know on what principle this list has been prepared, who puts the things in and who takes them out, because hitherto we have supposed that the Committee of

Ways and Means of the House Commons were the taxing authority.

The Parliamentary Secretary towards the finish of his remarks said that wrapping paper was included, whatever form it takes. Will he show me in what part of the Clause that is?

That is what the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) suggested, but it was not clear whether or not he was right.

With regard to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), the list to which I have referred is a list for the guidance of the Customs. Anyone who is dissatisfied about any items in that list can, of course, take the case to the Courts; but that is a list for the guidance of the Customs, and is supported by samples.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 127; Noes, 225.

Division No. 261.]

AYES.

[8.56 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Gosling, Harry

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Murnin, H.

Ammon Charles George

Greenall, T.

Naylor, T. E.

Atkinson, C.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Oliver, George Harold

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Owen, Major G.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Groves, T.

Palln, John Henry

Barnes, A.

Grundy, T. W.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Barr, J.

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Batey, Joseph

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hardle, George D.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Harris, Percy A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Broad, F. A.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Riley, Ben

Bromfield, William

Hayday, Arthur

Rose, Frank H.

Bromley, J.

Hayes, John Henry

Scrymgeour, E.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scurr, John

Buchanan, G.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hirst, G. H.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Cape, Thomas

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Charleton, H. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Clowes, S.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Sitch, Charles H.

Compton, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Connolly, M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Cove, W. G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Snell, Harry

Dalton, Hugh

Kelly, W. T.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Kennedy, T.

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Day, Colonel Harry

Kirkwood, D.

Stamford, T. W.

Dennison, R.

Lawrence, Susan

Stephen, Campbell

Duncan, C.

Lawson, John James

Sutton, J. E.

Dunnico, H.

Lee, F.

Taylor, R. A.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lowth, T.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Lunn, William

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Thurtle, E.

Forrest, W.

Mackinder, W.

Tinker, John Joseph

Gardner, J. P.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Gibbins, Joseph

March, S.

Varley, Frank B.

Gillett, George M.

Montague, Frederick

Viant, S. P.

Warne, G. H.

Westwood, J.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D.-(Rhondda)

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Mr. Mackenzie Livingstone and Mr. Fenby.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Welsh, J. C.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

NOES.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Ganzoni, Sir John

Neville, R. J.

Albery, Irving James

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Oakley, T.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Grotrian, H. Brent

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Hammersley, S. S.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover)

Hanbury, C.

Plelou, D. P.

Atholl, Duchess of

Harland, A.

Pilcher, G.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Preston, William

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Radford, E. A.

Bethel, A.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Raine, W.

Betterton, Henry B.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Ramsden, E.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hills, Major John Walter

Rice, Sir Frederick

Braithwaite, A. N.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Briggs, J. Harold

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Briscoe, Richard George

Holland, Sir Arthur

Ropner, Major L.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Salmon, Major I.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Burman, J. B.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Sandon, Lord

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)-

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel.(Renfrew, W)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hurd, Percy A.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Cassels, J. D.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Shepperson, E. W.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfast)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Jacob, A. E.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Chapman, Sir S.

Jephcott, A. R.

Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Christie, J. A.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Smithers, Waldron

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Clarry, Reginald George

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Clayton, G. C.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lamb, J. Q.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Storry-Deans, R.

Cooper, A. Duff

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H

Cope, Major William

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Couper, J. B.

Looker, Herbert William

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lougher, L.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Lumley. L. R.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Dalziel, Sir Davison

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Tinne, J. A.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

MacIntyre, Ian

Waddington, R.

Dawson, Sir Philip

McLean, Major A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Dixey, A. C.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Eden, Captain Anthony

McNeill. Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Watts, Dr. T.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Wells, S. R.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Malone, Major P. B.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Erskine. Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Margesson, Captain D.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Meller, R. J.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Merriman, F. B.

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fermoy, Lord

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Withers, John James

Fielden, E. B.

Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

Womersley, W. J.

Finburgh, S.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Wood, Sir S. Hilt- (High Peak)

Fraser, Captain Ian

Murchison, C. K.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper", to insert the words "wall paper body paper."

I should explain, in the first place, that there is no comma after the word "wall paper" in the words I propose to insert. The Amendment is designed to enable wall-paper manufacturers to import their body paper, on which they print the designs, free of duty. It may save time if the Minister will pay whether he intends to accept this Amendment. [ There is no response. ] I have here a sample of paper which may be imported under various descriptions, and I think it will show the utter absurdity of the operation of this duty. It may be imported as a poster paper, and if it is so imported there is no duty on it. If, however, the same paper is imported as a bag paper it is dutiable, but if it is imported as a printing paper then there is no duty upon it. This paper, in fact, is a wallpaper body paper. It may be imported as a wrapping paper or a printing paper, but it is, in fact, a wallpaper body paper, and is, indeed, used as such by the best wallpaper manufacturers in existence, the famous British firm of Shandkydd, who paint their beautiful designs on it. This paper, again, may come to the Port of London as a printing, wrapping or wallpaper. It is a paper, in fact, used as a printing paper by "Punch." These facts require no comment, for I think they show the absurdity of this proposal. This paper may be honestly imported either as one which is dutiable or not just as the importer pleases, and the importer sometimes does not know for what purpose the paper is going to be used, as it is sold by him to customers all over the country. I would like to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is going to tax celluloid because that is made from paper.

I am glad the hon. Member who has just spoken has explained what was meant by body paper, otherwise some hon. Members might have been under a misapprehension. But, really, the hon. Member gave the answer to his argument in his last two or three sentences when he said that when this paper was imported the importer did not know for what purpose the paper was wanted. If after it has been imported it is sometimes used as wallpaper and for other purposes, this at once shows the difficulty of controlling and following up every movement of this commodity, but I would like to point out that this Amendment would put more hindrances in the way of trade and make things infinitely worse than they are now. Upon these grounds I must oppose this Amendment. I understand that the bulk of wallpaper is not made from wrapping paper at all, in so far as it is we should act in accordance with the principle which has already been debated. Therefore, I see no reason why it should be excluded.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to admit free of duty finished wallpaper while he is unwilling to admit without duty the raw material used for wallpaper. I do not wish to have any misunderstanding about my position in this matter. I wish to say quite frankly that these duties will put money into my pocket because we shall advance our prices. I say this because I wish it to be understood that I am not in pursuit of dividends but desire simply to carry out my public duty.

Brown paper comes under these duties, and I understand it may be imported free of duty if it is to be used for printing.

The area of this duty is carefully laid down in the Bill by the use of the term coupled with provisions in regard to weight and, as a matter of fact, the list which has been drawn up for the guidance of the Customs of the main kinds of paper within the meaning of the term quite clearly excludes the great bulk of the paper used as printing paper. The list and the weights have already been settled in consultation with the various sections of the trade interested, the list in particular in consultation with the Federation of Master Printers who know a good deal about these things. In ordinary speech we commonly use the term wrapping paper to mean the paper in which tradesmen wrap up parcels. But strictly "paper of a wrapping or packing description" has a much more precise and a wider meaning. In the trade the term is perfectly well known.

May I say— because, after all, I do know something about this matter—that 99 per cent. of printing paper would be included within the limits here laid down?

In the case of wrapping paper, if it is a wrapping paper within these limits, then it is going to be subject to duty. It is not, however, going to have the least effect upon the printing trade; otherwise there would not have been such readiness of accommodation between the master printers and the manufacturers as, in fact, there has been. I know that that is so, because I have been in consultation with them. The position is quite clear. Wrapping paper, whatever its use is going to be subject to duty if it is between these two weights. Without laying down these limits it would not be possible to give the necessary directions in this instance.

On this Clause it would be a pity if Amendments of this kind were to go through without the Committee realising exactly what is happening. Here we have a series of Amendments, of which, to illustrate my point, I would quote one which is coming on in a few minutes, standing in the names of several hon. Members of the party opposite. All of these Amendments, and this one in particular, deal with papers which form the raw material of industries in which large masses of British labour are engaged, and that is the important thing to remember now. The right hon. Gentleman said in effect—I hope I am not misquoting him—in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Livingstone), that it is true, that under the conditions which are being imposed, a large number of papers which may not be used actually as wrapping paper are going to be taxed. These papers, as the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) pointed out earlier in the evening, are largely used in half a dozen industries in this country, which employ far more men—

The hon. and gallant Member is getting a good deal away from the particular question before the Committee, which is, whether the words "wall paper body paper" shall be inserted.

If, with of course every desire to conform to the rules of Debate, I may, just in one sentence, develop my point, and endeavour to show that it is strictly within the bounds of this Amendment, it is that the paper the taxation of which we are now discussing is, as are several other types of paper, the raw material of an industry which employs far more people in this country than are, according to the Committee's statement, employed in the wrapping paper industry. The President of the Board of Trade, in reply to my hon. Friend, says it is perfectly true that under the conditions laid down hardship and injustice will be inflicted; but he says that the machinery required to repair that hardship or to minimise that injustice will, as has already been pointed out, be so cumbrous that it will be impossible to operate it, and, therefore, he says, he will tax the lot. Surely, the proper retort to that is that it is not the proposal of my hon. Friend that has lead to the cumbrous machinery; it is the ridiculous and improper and dangerous tax on British employment which the Government themselves are proposing, and which he says it is impossible to justify on these grounds.

I desire also to say a word or two of protest, confining myself, I hope, strictly to the Amendments before us, as to the attitude that certain hon. Members opposite are adopting in regard to this matter. I wish to make a special appeal to those Conservative Members from Lancashire who, at the last General Election, and, indeed, at previous General Elections, on this issue of taxing commodities that can rightly be regarded as raw materials in industry, really stood in a different position from Tory candidates in other parts of the country—

I do not think the hon. Member can raise that question on an Amendment to insert the words "wall paper body paper."

I would suggest to you, Sir, that it has been made clear, upon this specific issue of wall paper body paper, that the Government care not a scrap whether it is to be used as raw material for manufacturing purposes or whether it is to be regarded as the finished product. All I was appealing for was that hon. Members, who are committed to rather more than the Minister himself may be committed to in this matter, ought not to allow the Government to get away so easily with this sort of thing, but ought to be as determined as we are to raise their protest against this iniquitous proposal.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 126; Noes, 215.

Division No. 262.]

AYES.

[9.22 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Groves, T.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Amman, Charles George

Grundy, T. W.

Richardson, H. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Riley, Ben

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Rose, Frank H.

Barnes, A.

Hardle, George D.

Scrymgeour, E.

Barr, J.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scurr, John

Batey, Joseph

Hayday, Arthur

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hayes, John Henry

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Bromfield, William

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromley, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Buchanan, G.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Clowes, S.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sutton, J. E.

Connolly, M.

Kennedy, T.

Taylor, R. A.

Cove, W. G.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Dalton, Hugh

Kirkwood, D.

Thurtle, E.

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Lawrence, Susan

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lawson, John James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lee, F.

Varley, Frank B.

Dennison, R.

Lowth, T.

Viant, S. P.

Duncan, C.

Lunn, William

Warne, G. H.

Dunnico, H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mackinder, W.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Fenby, T. D.

March, S.

Welsh, J. C.

Forrest, W.

Montague, Frederick

Westwood, J.

Gardner, J. P.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Murnin, H.

Williams, David (Swansea, E)

Gibbins, Joseph

Naylor, T. E.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gillett, George M.

Oliver, George Harold

Windsor, Walter

Gosling, Harry

Owen, Major G.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Palin, John Henry

Greenall, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Pethick Lawrence, F. W.

Mr. Mackenzie Livingstone and Major Crawfurd.

NOES.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Cassels, J. D.

Elveden, Viscount

Albery, Irving James

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R (Prtsmth. S.)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Centr'l)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Chapman, Sir S.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Christie, J. A.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Churchman, sir Arthur C.

Fermoy, Lord

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

Clarry, Reginald George

Fielden, E. B.

Atholl, Duchess of

Clayton, G. C.

Finburgh, S.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Barnett, Major Sir R.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Fraser, Captain Ian

Bethel, A.

Cope, Major William

Frece, Sir Walter de

Betterton, Henry B.

Couper, J. B.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Grant, J. A.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Braithwaite, A. N.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Briggs, J. Harold

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Grotrian, H. Brent

Briscoe, Richard George

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hammersley, S. S.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hanbury, C.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Davies, sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Harland, A.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Dawson, Sir Philip

Harrison, G. J. C.

Burman, J. B.

Dixey, A. C

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Edmonson, Major A. J.

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Hills, Major John Walter

Meller, R. J.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Merriman, F. B.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Shepperson, E. W.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. Col. J. T. C.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Smithers, Waldron

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Hume, Sir G. H.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Murchison, C. K.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Hurd, Percy A.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Storry-Deans, R.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Oakley, T.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Jacob, A. E.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Jephcott, A. R.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Pielou, D. P.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Lamb, J. Q.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Tinne, J. A.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Preston, William

Waddington, R

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Radford, E. A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

Raine, W.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Looker, Herbert William

Ramsden, E.

Watts, Dr. T.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Wells, S. R.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Rice, Sir Frederick

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Lumley, L. R

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Lynn, Sir Robert J.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Salmon, Major I.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Womersley, W. J.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

MacIntyre, Ian

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

McLean Major A.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Sandon, Lord

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Mr. F. C. Thomson and Lord Stanley.

Malone, Major P. B

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Margesson. Capt. D.

The next two Amendments appear to deal with somewhat similar subject matter. I can hardly see my way to select both of them, but perhaps the hon. Member in whose name they stand will move one of them, or he might perhaps combine them in one Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper" to insert the words "paper cut angularly for envelope making."

Paper cut angularly is a trade term, and it means paper cut at an angle other than a right angle. This Amendment is designed to allow the envelope manufacturers in this country, who are highly efficient, to get their raw material free. The envelope industry in this country employs more men than the wrapping paper section of the paper industry. While 200 men can make 10,000 tons of paper—and that is the quantity imported by the envelope manufacturers—it takes not 200 men to convert that paper into envelopes, but it takes 1,000 men. In other words while 200 men can make the paper they import, they require 1,000 men to convert that paper into envelopes. The imports last year were 10,000 tons, and they converted that into nearly 3,000,000,000 envelopes, and that 1,000 men employed in converting the paper into envelopes does not include printers, ink makers, box makers and others.

I have in my hand here a letter from the head of the largest manufacturer of envelopes in Europe, a large and enterprising firm. He says: exports. I note the right hon. Gentleman is silent. In any case, I am told by those people, the most efficient people in the envelope industry in this country, that if this duty goes through, the export trade will not only be injured, but it will be destroyed and eventually wiped out. If this duty goes through, the envelope people in this country say that, so small is the margin of profit, their export trade will be destroyed. I want to impress that on the President of the Board of Trade, who seems to care so little to-night whether this country has an export trade or not.

I am by no means callous as regards export trade. I only wish the hon. Member would also consider that there is such a thing as home trade, and by means of these duties I hope we shall, not only add to the one, but increase the other. The reason for rejecting this proposal is really the same as the reason for rejecting the proposal the hon. Member last made, and several of the same kind. I am not disposed to accept fears in the air, which are not justified by experience in other industries, as to what is likely to happen in the future. This paper is unquestionably wrapping paper: it is made in this country, and it is made efficiently in this country. Envelope makers do not challenge the efficiency of British production. They use at least as much home paper as

imported paper, and by no means all the paper that is imported goes into export. I am not underrating the importance of exports. The total export of envelopes is 2,183 tons, of which 1,940 tons go to the British Empire, where in some cases there is a preference which depends, to some extent, upon the proportion of the British material there is in it. That is so in Australia and New Zealand, but in all parts of the British Empire it is fair to say that there is a growing desire, as there is here, to buy within the Empire, and therefore most of this export trade goes to that market where it has the best good will and where I think these fears may be most effectively discounted. But apart from that, for the reasons advanced in regard to the last Amendment I cannot accept this.

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that some very important envelope makers in this country are negotiating now to build factories and make envelopes in Scandinavia if this goes through?

No; but if they do, they will pay a duty on the envelopes which they import into this country.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 215.

Division No. 263.]

AYES.

[9.40 p.m.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Dunnico, H.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Ammon, Charles George

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Atkinson, C.

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Kelly, W. T.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Forrest, W.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Barnes, A.

Gardner, J. P.

Kennedy, T.

Barr, J.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Batey, Joseph

Gibbins, Joseph

Kirkwood, D.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Gillett, George M.

Lawrence, Susan

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Gosling, Harry

Lawson, John James

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Lee, F.

Broad, F. A.

Greenall, T.

Livingstone, A. M.

Bromfield, William

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Lowth, T.

Bromley, J.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Lunn, William

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Groves, T.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Buchanan, G.

Grundy, T. W.

Mackinder, W

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Cape, Thomas

Handle, George D.

March, S.

Charleton, H. C.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Montague, Frederick

Clowes, S.

Hayday, Arthur

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hayes, John Henry

Murnin, H.

Compton, Joseph

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Naylor, T. E.

Connolly, M.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Oliver, George Harold

Cove, W. G.

Hirst, G. H.

Owen, Major G.

Dalton, Hugh

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Palln, John Henry

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Day, Colonel Harry

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Potts, John S.

Dennison, R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Duncan, C.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Riley, Ben

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Rose, Frank H.

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Scrymgeour, E.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Scurr, John

Stamford, T. W.

Welsh, J. C.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Stephen, Campbell

Westwood J.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Sutton, J. E.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Taylor, R. A.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Sitch, Charles H.

Thurtle, E.

Windsor, Walter

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Tinker, John Joseph

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Varley, Frank B.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Viant, S. P.

Mr. Fenby and Major Crawfurd.

Snell, Harry

Warne. G. H.

NOES.

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Albery, Irving James

Frece, Sir Walter de

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Gower, Sir Robert

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Grant, J. A.

Murchison, C. K.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Atholl, Duchess of

Grotrian, H. Brent

Neville, R. J.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Oakley, T.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Hammersley, S. S.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Bethel, A.

Hanbury, C.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Betterton, Henry B.

Harland, A.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Pielou, D. P.

Braithwaite, A. N

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Briggs, J. Harold

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Briscoe, Richard George

Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Radford, E. A.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Raine, W.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Ramsden, E.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hills, Major John Walter

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hilton, Cecil

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Burman, J. B.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Salmon, Major I.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cassels, J. D.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hume, Sir G. H.

Sandon, Lord

Chapman, Sir S.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. sir Aylmer

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Christie, J. A.

Hurd, Percy A.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Clarry, Reginald George

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Clayton, G. C.

Jacob, A. E.

Shepperson, E. W.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jephcott, A. R.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Cooper, A. Duff

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Cope, Major William

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Smithers, Waldron

Couper, J. B.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lamb, J. Q.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Locker-Lampson, Com. O (Handsw'th)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Looker, Herbert William

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sugden, Sir Wilfred

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lumley, L. R.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Eden, Captain Anthony

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Tinne, J. A.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Ellis, R. G.

MacIntyre, Ian

Waddington, R.

Elveden, Viscount

McLean, Major A.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otlay)

Everard, W. Lindsay

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Watts, Dr. T.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Wells, S. R.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Malone, Major P. B.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Margesson, Captain D.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Fermoy, Lord

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Fleiden, E. B.

Meller, R. J.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Finburgh, S.

Merriman, F. B.

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Womersley, W. J.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper," to insert the words

"flints, enamels, leatherettes, calf and suede, and other papers imitating cloth."

In the Board of Trade list which is issued to the officials, papers of the kind mentioned in this Amendment are included. There is no justification for including such papers among wrapping paper. The Report of the Committee begins by explaining exactly what it was upon which the applicants were claiming a duty, and there can be no suggestion that the papers so mentioned included imitation leathers. From first to last in that inquiry, which lasted many days, this class of paper was not mentioned, or even thought of. I submit that the list published by the Board of Trade by including imitation leather paper is going beyond anything contained in the Report. I know that the answer can be given that if this tax is levied a person who is aggrieved can go to the Courts, but that is no answer, because the expense of fighting the Government is prohibitive, and many persons would prefer to pay the duty rather than fight and take the case up to the Court of Appeal and probably to the House of Lords. I move this Amendment in order to make it clear that papers of this description are not included. They are used for bookbinding and other purposes. This class of paper can easily be mistaken for leather. It is not made in this country and cannot be made from paper used in this country, because such paper is not strong enough.

The hon. and learned Member says that this paper is not made in this country. He is wrong in that statement. Then papers are made to resemble leather, and are used in connection with a wide range, of articles. Flints are paper which has been coated and polished by means of- friction with stone, and enamels are paper which has been coated and polished by means of rollers or brushes; these sometimes, but not always, have a basis of a wrapping description. [HON MEMBERS: "We cannot hear a word. Speak up"!] The British manufacturer of this leatherette feels that as under the scheme a duty is put upon his raw material, paper, he ought to have the benefit of a countervailing duty on the imported made-up article. That is why these articles are included. I cannot accept the Amendment.

The Parliamentary Secretary speaks of a countervailing duty. What does he mean by a countervailing duty? Does he allege that the Committee which sat on this subject made a recommendation in favour of a duty upon these flints, enamels and leatherettes? I would like to have an answer.

The Committee recommended that a duty should be placed on wrapping paper, and this is a kind of wrapping paper which we propose to include.

The Parliamentary Secretary said that as their raw material, namely, paper, is being taxed, the British manufacturers of these articles must have a countervailing duty on the imported article. There are two distinct points of view. I agree with the hon. and learned Member who moved the Amendment, that the Committee never examined for one moment the question of these goods. They never recommended a duty on such articles. Therefore, the Government, although they are entitled constitutionally to propose a duty, are going far beyond the promise which they gave, when they propose a duty which has never been before the Committee and is merely introduced by way of what the Parliamentary Secretary called a countervailing duty, in a system which is rapidly becoming one of widespread Protection. I submit that the President of the Board of Trade, in including these substances, is going out of his way in order to put an impediment on a large industry which has nothing to do with wrapping paper at all.

I think the Government are taking a mean advantage of the Committee to-night by putting up the Parliamentary Secretary so often to deal with the points raised in the Debate. The Government know what a great favourite he is with the Committee. But he really must not inform the Committee that flint paper and enamel paper is usually made from a paper of a wrapping character; that is not so.

May I ask one question of the Parliamentary Secretary—and a very simple question? In his reply he said that the hon. Member who moved the Amendment said that these papers or substances were not made in this country. I did not catch the remarks of the hon. Member in moving the Amendment, but the Parliamentary Secretary apparently has it in his little book, and he read it out to the Committee. The question I want to put to him is this: Will he tell us what proportion of these substances or papers which are used in this country are manufactured in this country?

I understand that some of these papers are made in this

country, but I cannot give the hon. Member details offhand.

May I tell the Committee what I did say? I said that the paper from which this imitation leather is made is not made in this country because we do not make paper strong enough to make it. Having imported paper of sufficient strength it may be treated here, tout the paper itself, I understand, is not produced in this country.

Question put: "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 215.

Division No. 264.]

AYES.

[9.58 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

Ammon, Charles George

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Atkinson, C.

Groves, T.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Grundy, T. W.

Riley, Ben

Barker, c (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Rose, Frank H.

Barnes, A.

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Scrymgeour, E.

Barr, J.

Hammersley, S. S.

Scurr, John

Batey, Joseph

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hayday, Arthur

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Bromfield, William

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Bromley, J.

Hurst, Gerald B.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Buchanan, G.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Cape, Thomas

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Charleton, H. C.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Clowes, S.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sutton, J. E.

Connolly, M.

Kennedy, T.

Taylor, R. A.

Cove, W. G.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kirkwood, D.

Thurtle, E.

Dalton, Hugh

Lawrence, Susan

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Lawson, John James

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lee, F.

Viant, S. P.

Day, Colonel Harry

Livingstone, A. M.

Warne, G. H.

Dennison, R.

Lowth, T.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

Duncan, C.

Lunn, William

Watts-Morgan, Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda)

Dunnico, H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Mackinder, W.

Welsh, J. C.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Westwood, J.

Fenby, T. D.

March, S.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Forrest, W.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Wiggins, William Martin

Gardner, J. P.

Montague, Frederick

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Gibbins, Joseph

Murnin, H.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Gillett, George M.

Naylor, T. E.

Gosling, Harry

Oliver, George Harold

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Owen, Major G.

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Palin, John Henry

Greenall, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Ashley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Albery, Irving James

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

Bethel, A.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow. Cent'l)

Atholl, Duchess of

Boothby, R. J. G.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Harrison, G. J. C.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Braithwaite, A. N.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Pielou, D. P.

Briggs, J. Harold

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Briscoe, Richard George

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Brittain, Sir Harry

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Preston, William

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Radford, E. A.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Raine, W.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hills, Major John Walter

Ramsden, E.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hilton, Cecil

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Burman, J. B.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Cassels, J. D.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Salmon, Major I.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Chapman, Sir S

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Christie, J. A.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Clarry, Reginald George

Hunter-Weston, It.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Sandon, Lord

Clayton, G. C.

Hurd, Percy A.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'ni P'bl's)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Cooper, A. Duff

Jacob, A. E.

Shepperson, E. W.

Cope, Major William

Jephcott, A. R.

Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfst.)

Couper, J. B.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Kidd, J. (Linilthgow)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Smithers, Waldron

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Lamb. J. Q.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Looker, Herbert William

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Davies. Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Dawson Sir Philip

Lumley, L. R.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Eden, Captain Anthony

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Ellis, R. G.

Macintyre, Ian

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Elveden, Viscount

McLean, Major A.

Tinne, J. A.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Everard, W. Lindsay

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Waddington, R.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Malone, Major P. B.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Fermoy, Lord

Margesson, Capt. D.

Watts, Dr. T.

Fielden, E. B.

Meller, R. J.

Wells, S. R.

Finburgh, S.

Merriman, F. B.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Moore Lieut. Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Goff, Sir Park

Murchison. C. K.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gower, Sir Robert

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Wise, Sir Fredric

Grant, J. A.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Withers, John James

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Neville, R. J.

Womersley, W. J.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Oakley, T.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Pad.)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Hanbury, C.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Harland, A.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper,' to insert the words "waxed wrapping paper which is used for bread wrapping purposes."

I move this Amendment because many of the bakeries in Glasgow and the West of Scotland are very much concerned about the action of the Government in connection with this duty. The bakeries in Glasgow made representations to the Safeguarding of Industries Committee on the subject. They stated that on inquiry of the leading paper agents in Glasgow they were informed that at least 800 tons of waxed wrapping paper are being used annually in Glasgow alone, and that that represents nearly one quarter of the total consumption of this paper in the British Islands. At a price of 6¼d. a lb. it is, therefore, costing the five firms in Glasgow approximately £47,000 per annum.

In view of this duty they found it impossible to place a contract for more than three months ahead. Since this duty has been imposed they have been informed by Messrs. Donaldson and Tiler, the agents in Glasgow for Waxed Papers, Limited, that for 50 tons of red wrappers and reels, in regular weekly quantities, with a minimum of two tons a week, the price would be 6⅞d. a pound. This increased price is occasioned by the fact that the Wrapping Paper Duty is now in actual operation. [ Interruption. ] I am not reading my speech; I am reading a quotation from a letter from my constituency. I notice that hon. Members opposite interrupt at this particular point because one of their number, the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine), has said that prices were not being increased. I was quoting a document showing that the increased price is occasioned by the fact that the Wrapping Paper Duty is now in actual operation.

It is not a foreign paper. The information I have here is that 90 per cent. of this paper is produced in this country and only 10 per cent. imported. So that with regard to paper of which 90 per cent. is produced in this country, already, since this duty has been imposed, the home trade has seized the opportunity of imposing this increased price. The Amendment, if accepted, would be of great importance from the point of view of public health. The Board of Health regard it as very important that bread should be wrapped in this paper to prevent its being spoiled by dust or dirty hands. When one takes into account the fact that only 10 per cent. of the paper is being imported, there is no very great case for the duty. Evidently the home producer is able to meet any foreign competition in the trade. I hope that the Minister, in the interests of public health and of the consumers, will accept the Amendment. The duty will mean an increase in the price of bread to the consumer, for bread has to be wrapped in paper of some kind. Since the policy of the Government is that there should be clean and wholesome bread for the people, and since the home producer of this type of paper can beat his foreign competitors, there is no need for the duty.

Even if it were desirable, it would be impossible to operate the Amendment. It would be impossible to have a duty on paper according to its ultimate use. What the hon. Gentleman is proposing is that a particular selection of waxed paper should be exempted. It would be impossible to follow up paper and make it dutiable according to its ultimate use. The hon. Gentleman says that in the case of one particular firm there has been a rise of 10 per cent. in the price of the paper. I take that statement from him at once. But that has not been the ordinary practice of firms with regard to the great bulk of these papers. I quoted from the trade "Gazette," which gives all the prices, to show that prices have remained absolutely level. The constructive suggestion which I make is that if they find that one particular firm supplying this paper has raised its price they should seek a supply of suitable paper for wrapping bread from some other firm which has not raised its price.

A rather important point has been raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and one in which I take a deep interest. I have made exhaustive inquiries and I cannot find any instance among paper-makers where prices have been raised at all. It may be that in the waxing process some advantage has been taken of this duty, but with us it has been a point of honour not to raise our price at all although the price of pulp has gone up.

The name of the firm is Waxed Papers Limited and the agents are Messrs. Donaldson and Tiler, Glasgow.

I think it is true, in the main, that paper manufacturers have not increased their prices, although in this case the definite information supplied to us has yet to be refuted. But while the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade boasts that nobody has increased the price it is quite obvious that that state of affairs cannot last. We are discussing this duty in Parliament to-night and had the price been increased it might have influenced this Committee to reject the present proposal. The reason why there is no increase is because this Committee is now discussing the subject, but that does not guarantee that, if Parliament passes the duty, there will be no increase. If one firm have already taken advantage of the duty, surely other firms will. This firm is no better and no worse than others, and it is quite logical to assume that others will follow suit. I observe that the practice of wrapping bread is on the increase, and I welcome it, but the present proposal of the President of the Board of Trade is putting back the hands of the clock in regard to cleanliness in the purveying of food, and I ask him if it is not possible, even yet, to alter his decision? The hon. Member who moved the Amendment does not raise this matter on behalf of Labour people. Those who have supplied us with this information have spent a great deal of their time in opposing us, but they are interested in the trade, and they ask us to appeal in this matter to their own friends. They are concerned to have this obnoxious duty removed, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the question.

The increase in the use of waxed paper for wrapping bread has been most remarkable in England as well as Scotland during the last year or two. Special information was put before me by the Huddersfield Co-operative Society to show that not only has there been a considerable increase in the clean-

liness of the bread supplied, but that it is being made more palatable. The use of waxed paper makes it easier for people with insufficient pantry accommodation, to keep bread in a condition in which it may be eaten with some sort of pleasure. The Government, by this proposal, are assailing the ordinary simple needs of the working folk of this country. I observed that when the President of the Board of Trade was speaking he cast some doubt upon whether it was desirable to safeguard the manufacture and supply of waxed paper at the lowest possible price, but if he knew as many people as I do who have insufficient means to keep their food decent and moist, I am sure he would look at this issue in a more sympathetic way. I wish he would reconsider the matter.

I want to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to another aspect of this question. There has been great controversy over the question of the advisability of abolishing night work by bakers, and the extended use of wrapping paper for bread would go a long way towards abolishing the necessity for night baking, because bread can be kept fresh when this wrapping paper is put on it, and it could be baked by day workers, so that there would be no necessity for night work in the bakeries. I hope that that point may commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 234.

Division No. 265.]

AYES.

[10.22 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

Connolly, M.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Cove, W. G.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ammon, Charles George

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Crawfurd, H. E.

Groves, T.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Dalton, Hugh

Grundy, T. W.

Barnes, A.

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Barr, J.

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Batey, Joseph

Day, Colonel Harry

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Dennison, R.

Hayday, Arthur

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Duncan, C.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Dunnico, H.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Broad, F. A.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Hirst, G. H.

Bromfield, William

Fenby, T. D.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Bromley, J.

Forrest, W.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Gardner, J. P.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Buchanan, G.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Gibbins, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Cape, Thomas

Gillett, George M.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Charleton, H. C.

Gosling, Harry

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Clowes, S.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

Kelly, W. T.

Compton, Joseph

Greenall, T.

Kennedy, T.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Taylor, R. A.

Kirkwood, O.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Lawrence, Susan

Riley, Ben

Thurtle, E.

Lawson, John James

Rose, Frank H.

Tinker, John Joseph

Lee, F.

Scrymgeour, E.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Livingstone, A. M.

Scurr, John

Varley, Frank B.

Lowth, T.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Viant, S. P.

Lunn, William

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Warne, G. H.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Mackinder, W.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

March, S.

Sitch, Charles H.

Welsh, J. C.

Montague, Frederick

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Westwood, J.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Murnin, H.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Wiggins, William Martin

Naylor, T. E.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Oliver, George Harold

Snell, Harry

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Owen, Major G.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Palin, John Henry

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Stamford, T. W.

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Stephen, Campbell

Potts, John S.

Sutton, J. E.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hurd, Percy A.

Albery, Irving James

Davies, Sir Thorn S (Cirencester)

Hurst, Gerald B.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hutchison, G. A. C.(Midl'n & Peebles)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Dixey, A. C.

Jacob, A. E.

Apsley, Lord

Eden, Captain Anthony

Jephcott, A. R.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Ellis, R. G.

Kindersley, Major Guy M.

Atholl, Duchess of

Elveden, Viscount

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Braithwaite, A. N.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Lamb, J. Q.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

Bethel, A,

Fermoy, Lord

Looker, Herbert William

Betterton, Henry B.

Fielden, E. B.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Bird. Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Finburgh, S.

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ford, Sir P. J.

Lumley, L. R.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Briggs, J. Harold

Foster, Sir Harry S.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Briscoe, Richard George

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Frece, Sir Walter de

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

MacIntyre, Ian

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Ganzoni, Sir John

McLean, Major A.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Goff, Sir Park

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gower, Sir Robert

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Bullock, Captain M.

Grant, J. A.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Malone, Major P. B.

Burman, J. B.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Meller, R. J.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Merriman, F. B.

Cassels, J. P

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Mitchell, w. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hammersley, S. S.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hanbury, C.

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Chapman, Sir S.

Harland, A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Christie, J. A.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Murchison, C. K.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Clarry, Reginald George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Clayton, G. C.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Neville, R. J.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hills, Major John Walter

Oakley, T.

Cooper, A. Duff

Hilton, Cecil

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Cope, Major William

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Couper, J. B.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Holland, Sir Arthur

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Phillpson, Mabel

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Pielou, D. P.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Galnsbro)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Preston, William

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Radford, E. A.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hume, Sir G. H.

Raine, W.

Ramsden, E.

Smithers, Waldron

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Watts, Dr. T.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Wells, S. R.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Salmon, Major I.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Wise, Sir Fredric

Sandon, Lord

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Withers, John James

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Wolmer, Viscount

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Womersley, W. J.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, West)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Shepperson, E. W.

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Waddington, R.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine C.)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Lord Stanley and Captain Margesson.

The Amendment of the hon. Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) in page 8, line 21, after the first word "paper" to insert the word "or" and the Amendment that follows, which I take it, is consequential, and are not in order as they would make an extension of the tax.

On a point of Order. You are perfectly right. [ Laughter. ] Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to finish my sentence before they laugh. The second Amendment is complementary. The two Amendments taken together do not seek to impose an additional charge. What they do seek to do is to leave the Clause precisely as it is at present in respect of this particular industry in relation to the Imports Duty, and therefore, I think, cannot be said to be proposing an additional charge. Of course, I am perfectly well aware of the salutary rule, but I am seeking by this Amendment to put on no additional charge. Only to move the deletion of one.

The Amendment would limit the number of exceptions, and to that extent would be an extension.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 21, after the word "article," to insert the words "straw paper."

The object of this Amendment is to make it perfectly certain that straw paper is excluded from the articles to be taxed under this new law. I will be as brief as possible, as the subject is a dry one, but I feel justified in going into some detail in this matter in view of the fact that the livelihood of certain classes of workpeople to the number of some 2,000 are involved. Ninety-five per cent. of the straw paper is utilised in making corrugated paper by the importers of this country, and as a consequence it is a highly debateable point whether it ought to be called wrapping paper at all in view of the infinitesimal quantity used as wrapping paper. It is used in making corrugated paper, which is in turn used for making boxes and cartons of various sorts, and also in connection with fibre board.

As the name implies, strawpaper, technically known as thin strawboard on reels, is made almost entirely from straw. Strawboard is imported into this country practically exclusively from Holland, and of the 170,000 tons per annum so imported, some 15,000 tons, so I am informed, consist of this strawpaper which it is now proposed to tax.

The reasons I wish to give for its exclusion are, principally, three. The first, which I think is a cogent one, is the fact that, so far as I can see, it was not discussed before the Committee set up by the President of the Board of Trade. I have read their Report carefully many times to try to find some glimpse of straw paper in it, but I can find none. On page 5, paragraph 11, of that Report it is stated that the descriptions of paper to be considered fall into two main groups: On the next page, paragraph 14, there are four definite classifications:

A second great point is that, so far as I can ascertain, straw paper is not manufactured in this country, and, therefore, it is somewhat difficult to find out what is going to be safeguarded. I know perfectly well that an imitation of straw paper is manufactured in this country, or, shall we say, a substitute for straw paper, but the actual straw paper is not manufactured in this country at the present time, for economic reasons. Speaking as a Tariff Reformer, it seems to me that raw materials required by this country which are not manufactured here for natural or economic reasons ought not to be subject to any tariff. The economic reason, so I am informed, why straw paper is not manufactured here is that there is a shortage of straw, whereas in Holland there is any amount of cheap straw, brought to the factories by canal transport much cheaper than by rail, and, further, the farmers in Holland are interested in the factories. In these cir- cumstances I cannot see what real claim there is to have straw paper inserted in this list of dutiable papers. The English substitute is manufactured, so I am given to understand, of waste paper and the clippings of waste strawboard and straw paper; so, apparently, if there is to be a tax on imported straw paper, that will make it more difficult to manufacture the British substitute, because there will not be the same amount of chippings.

Another aspect of this question is that, a large quantity of straw paper is used, together with fibre board, in making cartons and boxes which are used by manufacturers for packing brittle articles. Already without any duty these boxes or cartons, whether made of kraft and fibre board or straw paper and fibre, are in close competition with the Scandinavian wooden box, and the prices are running very level. For these reasons I think straw paper should not be included. I will give another reason. I am informed by one of my constituents who has a factory for the manufacture of corrugated paper that if this duty is imposed, he will certainly have at least 50 per cent. of his men out of work inside six months, and he employs about 100 men. Therefore I think that any duty which may lead to further unemployment, however small, should be very carefully considered. I ask that due consideration should be given to this point, and in view of the fact that the inclusion of this actual product was not thrashed out before the Committee which sat at the end of last year, I think that a further chance should be given to the importers to try and prove their case.

I think I shall be able to try and satisfy my hon. and gallant Friend who has moved this Amendment that, as a good Tariff Reformer, when he knows not only what will happen in his own constituency but what will happen over a wider field, he will agree with me that his Amendment would be a most improper one to accept. My hon. and gallant Friend said that this commodity was not manufactured in this country. It may not be manufactured in his constituency, but it was manufactured in this country in 1923 to the extent of about 12,000 tons. The bulk of our requirements in reference to this article was actually produced in this country in 1923, and our own manufacturers are quite capable of producing the amount we require now. The hon. and gallant Member is very anxious about the manufacturers of corrugated paper, and he says if you put a tax upon straw paper, you are going to do a grave injustice to these people. It is said that the Federation representing the corrugated paper makers is against these duties, but I am authorised to say that it is only a section of the Federation that is against them. I know there are people who are opposed to this duty because they prefer to import straw paper from Holland, but there are others who make this corrugated paper in this country, who are quite willing to compete, and who make corrugated paper from straw paper produced in this country. If I am challenged to choose between an article which is made from straw in Holland, and one which is made here from British straw paper, then I have no hesitation in saying that I shall support the man who makes the all-British article.

What a place the Board of Trade must be! I venture to say that no one who has sat in this House at any time during the last 50 years has ever heard a President of the Board of Trade say that he is authorised to say such-and-such a thing by this or that federation. It is the open door to something which I am sure will not happen with the present personnel, but it is the open door all the same. There is one question that the President of the Board of Trade has never answered, which the hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester (Lieut.-Colonel Horlick) pressed upon him. Does he say that straw paper was made the subject of inquiry by this Committee? He does not?

I say that it was assumed throughout that it would be included under the term "wrapping paper." It was perfectly open to anyone to give evidence upon it.

Then, instead of the industry having to go before the Committee and prove its case, it can be assumed throughout. In point of fact, in the Customs catalogue it is separately catalogued; it was never spoken of by the Committee; and the President of the Board of Trade never thought it worth while even to allege in his defence that it came before the Committee. We have now, therefore, arrived at a new stage in these duties. The Government have brushed aside all the pretence of these being duties that have been examined and guaranteed and recommended by a Committee, and now come down here with a sheer proposal for a protective duty. They have got rid here, in the simplest way, of all the pretence that there are pledges that the Government is not intending step by step to build up a general tariff in this country.

May I ask the Minister in charge one simple question? Did he ever in his life hear straw paper described as wrapping paper?

Straw paper has been included as wrapping paper from time immemorial. Straw paper, as my hon. Friend knows, is not a board; it certainly is a wrapping paper. My hon. and gallant Friend who moved this Amendment evidently does not know, what is common knowledge in the trade, that corrugated paper was originated in this country out of paper made of straw board clippings which were made in this country. It is a British industry. The fact that it was not, perhaps, specially mentioned at the inquiry is, I think, due to the foreign case being so bad that they would not dare bring it. They had a perfect opportunity of coming before the Committee.

Whatever I have said in this Committee with regard to the wages and hours in Germany and other countries is true in this case also, but with an addition. The straw paper made in Holland is usually made, I would have my hon. and gallant Friend know, in exactly the same way in which we make it here, that is to say, out of the clippings of the boards. It may have a little straw added out of the digester as well, but it is largely made out of the clippings of straw-board and straw paper. In addition to that, my hon. and gallant Friend must understand that, in manufacturing this kind of paper in Holland, they have the advantage that the mills are what they call co-operative. They are, however, only co-operative to this extent, that the farmer sends his straw to make the original strawboard down the canal, and he gets paid for it if there is anything left with which to pay him. The result, therefore, as I should have said if I had given evidence before the Committee on this point, is that we have an additional disadvantage, in as much as we have not only to meet wages and hours of labour, but we have also, in this case, to meet free raw material. I seriously ask hon. Members opposite do they think that we should be asked to get free raw material? There is only one other point. I can confirm everything the President of the Board of Trade said about straw paper being made in this country, and made in increasing quantities. I personally can speak from experience of supplying some of the very largest makers, made out of English paper entirely.

I cannot hand the hon. and gallant Member samples across the Floor, but I would be quite willing to defy him to pick out of the samples which I have here those which are foreign and those which are English. I have been in the trade for 26 years, and I myself picked out the wrong ones. If the hon. and gallant Member finds the right one, it will be more by good luck than good management. Really they are indistinguishable, and I can say to the President of the Board of Trade that if the straw paper industry, which is rapidly coming along in this country, is given a fair chance, it will meet all that is required of it.

I venture to suggest that the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine), on whom has fallen almost the entire burden of defending these duties, has utterly failed to deal with the three specific points which the hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the Amendment put forward. The Mover stated that this question of straw boards had not been discussed by the Committee. That is, I think, now generally recognised as being the truth. If that be the case, how can the Government shelter this proposal under the curtain of the Safe- guarding of Industries machinery—if in fact the question of straw boards was not raised at all? Assuming, as appears to be the fact, that the Committee did not deal with the question of straw boards, paragraph 41 of the Report appears to be the only paragraph applicable. There they say:

His second point is also admitted by the hon. Member for East Dorset when he said you could get straw for nothing in Holland. It is therefore extraordinarily cheap to produce there. It goes to show that the raw material of the box makers can be obtained most cheaply in the foreign market. We do not put a duty on cotton because an enormous amount of cotton is used. We do not put a duty on foreign wool, rubber, or any other foreign raw material. We look to buy our raw material in the cheapest and best markets. The reason English box makers have been buying their straw paper in Holland is not because they love the Dutch or prefer Dutch straw paper, but because it is the cheapest market. That is an unanswerable proposition, and the case as stated to me by the box makers is that they buy their straw paper in Holland because it is the one country which can give them the raw material they require for their business. That is the beginning and the end of it.

So that here we have a proposal to tax the best and cheapest source of the raw material for this industry. I submit that the second point made by the mover of the Amendment is established. Then let us turn to what is the real objection to the inclusion of straw paper in the Bill. There is a large number of box makers in this country. They employ much more labour, obviously, than the few firms that manufacture artificial straw paper. Why should we disregard their interests? These have never been put before the Committee and have never been weighed by the Board of Trade. They are larger employers of labour than the small industry which this proposal is intended to protect. Why is their interest to be disregarded? I can speak of box makers who to my knowledge carry on a large business in Manchester in the face of foreign competition. They employ a large amount of British labour, and to make their business a success they want to have a low cost of production. You cannot get a low cost of production unless you get your raw material cheap, and that is why it is the greatest possible mistake, in the interest of a handful of British firms who are seeking to produce straw paper at home, employing only a small volume of labour, to handicap a large industry which employs a very large number of employés, and whose success depends, obviously, on the maintenance of a low cost of production.

I think once again the Minister does not quite realise what he is doing. He refuses to admit free of duty straw paper, which is quite clearly a raw material for one industry. Does he realise that he is giving a direct encouragement to the Dutch paper maker to make corrugated paper, which he can send in under the terms of the Bill free of duty? I want an answer to that question. The thing is ridiculous.

I am sure we all rejoice very much indeed to learn from the President of the Board of Trade, and also from the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine), that a new and nourishing industry is growing up in this country, the manufacture of strawboards, which cannot but be beneficial to agriculture. But what rather puzzles me, and, I think, must puzzle many Members, is why the least important and the cheapest product of this new industry should be selected for the so-called advantages that are to be gained under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. Why is it that this thin raw material, less than 3½ ozs. in substance, should be selected, and the other materials, which can easily and with the same justification be described as wrapping material, of four, eight, 10, 12, up to various weights, not enjoy the same advantages? There is, I am sure, in the mind of many hon. Members some feeling of suspicion that behind all this, joined with the non-mention of straw paper in the Committee's Report, there is something still more to come out in this matter. I shall be very glad if we can be furnished with a much more ample explanation than we have had hitherto, and until I have the advantage of that explanation I shall support the Amendment.

11.0 P.M.

I join in the appeal to the President of the Board of Trade, even at this late stage, to reconsider his decision. I think it will be generally admitted that the case has not been examined with that care and detail which a case of this kind demands. When the matter came before the Committee, if it was not definitely excluded, the counsel for the applicants made it quite clear that straw paper was not included. We have been told that a very large number of people are using this particular kind of British straw paper. I hold in my hand a letter on behalf of people who assure me that they use 95 per cent. of the straw paper for corrugated purposes. They say that they represent the great majority of the corrugated straw paper trade and other corrugated products in this country, and declare:

"We are unable to obtain straw paper in Great Britain. The substitute offered by the British papermakers is not straw paper but merely an imitation of it, and is not efficient for the purpose for which this straw paper is required. In our opinion, the imposition of a tariff on straw paper is not in the least likely to lead to the manufacture of straw paper in this country."

It is clear that there is a distinct difference of opinion on this matter. We have this great group of British manufacturers stating one thing and the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine) stating another. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to exempt for the time being this article from the duty, so that the officials of his Department may go into the matter with the care and detail that it demands, and then I feel sure the Committee will be prepared to abide by the decision of the officials of the Board of Trade.

This matter has been considered with great care. The hon. Member for Central Wandsworth (Sir H. Jackson) has un- intentionally stated what is inaccurate when he says that the great majority of this trade are against the duty. The manufacturers are divided upon the subject. The majority who prefer to use the foreign article in their manufacture take the view which the hon. Member has expressed. Those who use the British article in their manufacture take the view that this straw paper ought to be protected. There is no doubt that this is a wrapping-paper. The list was the subject of very great consideration by various sections of people interested: the Union of Wrapping Paper Makers, the British Paper Bag Federation, the National Association of Wholesale Stationers and Paper Merchants, and the Federation of Master Printers and allied trades; makers, users, merchants, who know what the thing is, and in their view it is wrapping paper. After the most careful consideration, and in view of the fact that opinion in the corrugated paper trade is divided, I am not going to make an exception in this case in the interests of the particular section of the trade who use the foreign material, to the prejudice of the section of the trade who use the British material.

May I emphasise one point. Are we to understand that the position of the President of the Board of Trade, who is supposed to have some responsibility in regard to the trade of this country, is this: That if there are two manufacturers in this country who are making a finished article for sale, that the manufacturer who deliberately prefers the better raw material from which he can make a better finished article is to be penalised in favour of his competitor who deliberately chooses a worse raw material and who also makes a worse finished article?

I should like to know whether I am in order in asking the President to reply to my question. Why is he unwilling to allow the corrugated paper manufacturers in this country to have a duty-free raw material; and why is he prepared to allow the finished article to come in from Holland and compete with them?

Under this Clause the Dutch paper manufacturer can send in the finished corrugated article free of duty.

The fact that the hon. Member for East Dorset (Mr. Hall Caine) has spoken must not lead hon. Members to assume that corrugated paper is made in Dorset. There is just as much made in West Dorset as there is in East Dorset—and that is none at all. My opposition, as I have stated in similar Debates, is that hon. Members who hold opinions similar to mine found themselves on the Report of the Committees which have been set up to consider each individual article in order to come to a decision. As far as this particular article is concerned it is admitted that I has never been considered by one of the Safeguarding Committees, and it seems to me that the case for this particular article is not proved. It may be possible of proof, but up to the moment it has not been proved, and I shall follow my hon. and gallant Friend into the Lobby in support of the Amendment.

I have not said a word during these Debates—I have listened to most of them—and my only reason for rising now is to express my surprise at the levity with which the President of the Board of Trade has treated what is a perfectly simple, reasonable and straightforward question put to him by the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Livingstone). It seems to me a question which requires a careful and reasoned reply and I protest against the evasive way in which the President has treated it.

I really thought I had answered it. The question was: Can corrugated paper from Holland come in free? The answer is, No. It will be subject to duty as an article made entirely of wrapping paper. If the hon. Member will read the Bill he will see that the duty is not only on wrapping paper, but on an article made wholly or exclusively of wrapping paper, or an article with the addition of some other paper which does not exceed one-sixth of the total value of the whole article. Therefore, the duty is put on the straw paper, but if there is corrugated paper brought in from Holland, which is straw paper corrugated, of course that will be taxed.

I, too, have listened to these Debates with some surprise. The President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary have been very active during the past few days in holding up the British product as against the foreign product. I take it that the whole desire is to try so to arrange this Debate as to foster British products to the exclusion, or the partial exclusion, of foreign products. To me the whole thing appears farcical. The Government are very anxious here, and on platforms outside, to express their great desire to have purely British products, an-d yet if a strike were to take place in any of the factories in Britain which manufacture this particular article and no foreign product of the same kind were coming into this country because of the duty on it, the President of the Board of Trade and his Government would very soon remove the duty in order to bring in the foreign products so as to beat the men who were engaged in a dispute in this country. That very thing is being done now by the Government, in bringing in foreign coal. This Debate has become farcical, for a few thousand pounds, when you have 2,500,000 men unemployed in this country and 12,000,000 people are practically starving. With all

the levity that is going on, the Debate is farcical, and the Government are making themselves a laughing stock to the people of the country.

May I read the terms of the Bill in the presence of the President of the Board of Trade? His own Bill says that paper will be taxed

"of a weight when fully extended equivalent to more than ten pounds but not more than ninety pounds to the ream of four hundred and eighty sheets of double crown."

The right hon. Gentleman may not know —I do not expect him to know all the details—that corrugated paper usually is much heavier than 90 pounds per double crown sheet. Does the Minister claim that a corrugated paper is not "paper" but an "article" made from paper? The thing is ridiculous. Corrugated paper is a paper, not an article made from paper, and it is heavier than 90 pounds to the ream of 480 sheets and under this Clause it is not dutiable.

Answer!

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 220.

Division No. 266.]

AYES.

[11.15 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Gibbins, Joseph

Lawrence, Susan

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Gillett, George M.

Lawson, John James.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Gosling, Harry

Lee, F.

Ammon, Charles George

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Livingstone, A. M.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Lowth, T.

Barnes, A.

Greenall. T.

Lunn, William

Barr, J.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Batay, Joseph

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Mackinder, W.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Groves, T.

March, S.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Grundy, T. W.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Broad, F. A.

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Murnin, H.

Bromfield, William

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Naylor, T. E.

Bromley, J.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Harris, Percy A.

Oliver, George Harold

Buchanan, G.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Owen, Major G.

Cape, Thomas

Hayday, Arthur

Palln, John Henry

Charleton, H. C.

Hayes, John Henry

Parkinson, John Alton (Wigan)

Clowes, S.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Compton, Joseph

Hirst, G. H.

Potts, John S.

Connolly, M.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring>

Dalton, Hugh

Hurst, Gerald B.

Riley, Ben

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Rose, Frank H.

Day, Colonel Harry

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Dennison, R.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Scrymgeour, E.

Duncan, C.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Scurr, John

Dunnico, H.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

England, Colonel A.

Kelly, W. T.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Forrest, W.

Kennedy, T.

Sitch, Charles H.

Gardner, J. P.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Kirkwood, D.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Tinker, John Joseph

Whiteley, W.

Snell, Harry

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Wiggins, William Martin

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Varley, Frank B.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Viant, S. P.

Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Warne, G. H.

Wright, W.

Stamford, T. W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Stephen, Campbell

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Sutton, J. E.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Taylor, R. A.

Welsh, J. C.

Lieut.-Colonel Horlick and Major Crawturd.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Westwood, J.

Thurtle, E.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Fermoy, Lord

Meller, R. J.

Albery, Irving James

Fielden, E. B.

Merriman, F. B.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Finburgh, S.

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Apsley, Lord

Frece, Sir Walter de

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

Ganzoni Sir John

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Atholl, Duchess of

Goff, Sir Park

Murchison, C. K.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Gower, Sir Robert

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Barclay-Harvey, C. M

Greene, W. P. Crawtord

Neville, R. J.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Gretton, Colonel John

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Oakley, T.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Bethel, A.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Breton & Rad)

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Bettorton, Henry B.

Hammersley, S. S.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Hanbury, C.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Harland, A.

Philipson, Mabel

Braithwaite, A. N.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Pielou, D. P

Briggs, J. Harold

Harrison, G. J. C.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Briscoe, Richard George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Preston, William

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Radford, E. A.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Raine, W.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Ramsden, E.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Bullock, Captain M.

Hills, Major John Walter

Rice, Sir Frederick

Burman, J. B.

Hilton, Cecil

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Holland, Sir Arthur

Salmon, Major I.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Chadwick, sir Robert Burton

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Chapman, Sir S.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Christie, J. A.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Moseley)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Clarry, Reginald George

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Sandon, Lord

Clayton, G. C.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hurd, Percy A.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

Cooper, A. Duff

Jacob, A. E.

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Cope, Major William

Jephcott, A. R.

Shepperson, E. W.

Couper, J. B.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Courtauld, Major J. S.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn. N.)

Lamb, J. Q.

Smithers, Waldron

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Crooksnank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

Loder, J. de V.

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Looker, Herbert William

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Lougher, L.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lumley, L. R.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lynn, Sir Robert J.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Dixey, A. C.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Edmondson, Major A J.

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Ellis, R. G.

MacIntyre, Ian

Tinne, J. A.

Elveden, Viscount

McLean, Major A.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Erskine, Lord (Somerset. Weston-s.-M.)

Macmillan, Captain H.

Waddington, R.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Still-

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Malone, Major P. B.

Watts, Dr. T.

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Wells, S. R.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Wood, Sir Kingtley (Woolwich, W.).

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Wise, Sir Fredric

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Withers, John James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Wolmer, Viscount

Lord Stanley and Captain Margesson.

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Womersley, W. J.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

I beg to move, in page 8, line 24, at the end, to insert the words:

"(3) There shall be allowed and paid in the case of any manufactured or made up article exported from Great Britain or Northern Ireland a drawback equal to the amount shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to have been paid as duty on the paper used for packing or wrapping."

I am hopeful that the Government will look with a rather more friendly eye on this new Subsection of mine than they did upon the Amendment which was moved by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aitrincham (Mr. Atkinson). My Amendment is in rather more restricted terms, but I am not going to take advantage of the Committee by repeating the arguments which I used at an earlier stage or sitting, and, therefore, I will content myself by moving the new Sub-section.

I regret extremely having to dash the hopes of my hon. Friend, but I am afraid it will be quite impossible to accept this Amendment. I quite agree that it does not go quite as far as the Amendment moved earlier in the evening standing in the name of the hon. and hon. and learned Member for Aitrincham (Mr. Atkinson); nevertheless the reasons which I ventured to submit to the Committee against accepting that Amendment are equally, or almost equally, applicable to the present case, and as my hon. Friend has very reasonably, I think, refrained from going through the arguments again, I also will refrain from going fully again into the reasons why it is impossible to accept it. I will, however, state shortly the two reasons which make it impossible. The first is that it would break the continuity with regard to the drawback arrangements applied to all these safeguarding duties. If we were to admit an exception in a case of this sort, it would be impossible, I think, to resist any claim which might be made for a similar change in regard to any of the other safeguarding duties. But I think the still stronger reason, which I elaborated earlier in the evening, is that as there is no countervailing excise duty, it would be perfectly impossible in any case where the draw- back was claimed, for the Customs and Excise officers to say whether the article on which the drawback was claimed had, or had not, paid duty. I can think of no special machinery by which that could be discovered. Consequently, as it would be an unworkable arrangement, I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.

There would be no possibility of identifying the article. The drawback can only be claimed when the identity of the article is proved on importation, and that cannot be done under the arrangements my hon. Friend suggests.

I cannot understand the difficulty my right hon. Friend is in. If it be not possible to give a drawback, the right hon. Gentleman ought not to indulge in this particular duty, and handicap an export trade at a time when it is struggling to live and compete in the markets of the world. While we are asked to take every means to foster our exports, the Government coins along with their clumsy hand and propose to penalise the exporter in one of his most important materials. I fail to see why, if the Government really want to help the export trade, they cannot get over this difficulty. The Government have boasted that they have done it with silk, and by the ingenuity and skill of the Customs officials they have been able to differentiate between silk from abroad paying a higher rate of duty as opposed to English artificial silk, which pays a lower rate. If they can do it in the case of silk, which is used in a thousand different ways in a thousand different articles, surely they can do it in the case of paper. The Government or the right hon. Gentleman has got a special dislike to cocoa; they have always shown an hostility and dislike to it. This proposal is a mean and despicable thing. If the Government are not able to administer this duty fairly let them drop it, and the sooner they do this the better for the trade of the country.

This Debate has brought out the admission by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that although the purpose of this duty is expressly said to be to assist British industrial wrapping papers, that the duty is going to be applied to paper that is not used for packing but as raw material for manufacturing purposes! We are now told that in the paper used for making articles

for export the duty is to be applied. The Committee ought to know the straits into which this policy of tinkering with the industries has landed the Government.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 112; Noes, 203.

Division No. 267.]

AYES.

[11.32 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Riley, Ben

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Barnes, A.

Harris, Percy A.

Scrymgeour, E.

Barr, J.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scurr, John

Batey, Joseph

Hayday, Arthur

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Lieth)

Hayes, John Henry

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Broad, F. A.

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bromfield, William

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Bromley, J.

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Buchanan, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Cape, Thomas

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Snell, Harry

Charleton, H. C.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Clowes, S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Compton, Joseph

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stamford, T. W.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kelly, W. T.

Stephen, Campbell

Crawfurd, H. E.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sutton, J. E.

Dalton, Hugh

Kennedy, T.

Taylor, R. A.

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Kirkwood, D.

Thomas. Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lawrence, Susan

Thurtle, E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lawson, John James

Tinker, John Joseph

Dennison, R.

Lee, F.

Varley, Frank B.

Dunnico, H.

Lunn, William

Warne, G. H.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelty)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermllne)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Mackinder, W.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Forrest, W.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Gardner, J. P.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Welsh, J. C.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Westwood, J.

Gibbins, Joseph

Murnin, H.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Gillett, George M.

Naylor, T. E.

Wiggins, William Martin

Gosling, Harry

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Owen, Major G.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Greenall, T.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Mr. Mackenzie Livingstone.

Groves, T.

Potts. John S.

Grundy, T. W.

Rees, Sir Beddoe

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Burman, J. B

Dixey, A. C.

Albery, Irving James

Butt, Sir Alfred

Eden, Captain Anthony

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Ellis, R. G.

Apsley, Lord

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Chapman, Sir S.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Christie, J. A.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Clarry, Reginald George

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Clayton, G. C.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Fermoy, Lord

Bethel, A.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Fielden, E. B.

Betterton, Henry B.

Cooper, A. Duff

Finburgh, S.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton W.)

Couper, J. B.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Braithwaite, A. N.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Briggs, J. Harold

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Briscoe, Richard George

Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Ganzoni, Sir John

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll)

Goff, Sir Park

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Grace, John

Bullock, Captain M.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Gretton, Colonel John

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Grotrian, H. Brent

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. sir F. (Dulwich)

MacIntyre, Ian

Shepperson, E. W.

Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

McLean, Major A.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Hammersley, S. S.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Hanbury, C.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Smithers, Waldron

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Margesson, Capt. D.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Harland, A.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Meller, R. J.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Harrison, G. J. C.

Merriman, F. B.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Hills, Major John Waller

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Hilton, Cecil

Murchison, C. K.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Neville. R. J.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Oakley, T.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Oman Sir Charles William C.

Tinne, J. A.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Jacob, A. E.

Philipson, Mabel

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Jephcott, A. R.

Pielou, D. P.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Preston, William

Watts, Dr. T.

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Radford, E. A.

Wells, S. R.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Raine, W.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Lamb. J. Q.

Ramsden, E.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Reid, D. U. (County Down)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Rice, Sir Frederick

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Loder, J. de V.

Salmon, Major 1.

Wolmer, Viscount

Looker, Herbert William

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Womersley, W. J.

Lougher, L.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Sandon, Lord

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Major Cope and Captain Viscount Curzon.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. HADEN GUEST: —

In page 8, line 30, at the end, to add the words—

(4) During the period in which the duty imposed by this section is chargeable the rates of wages and hours of labour in the manufacture in Great Britain or Northern Ireland of goods upon the importation of which duty is chargeable under this section shall be not less favourable than those prevailing on the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, plus, in the case of wages, an addition of five per cent.

(5) If any person who employs persons in Great Britain or Northern Ireland in the manufacture of goods upon the importation of which duty is chargeable under this section fails to pay to such persons rates of wages and to observe hours of labour in accordance with the provisions of the preceding subsection he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.

The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Southwark is not in Order, because it is outside the scope of the Bill.

May I take it that you are ruling my Amendment out of Order because it is outside the scope of the Revenue Bill?

May I point out that we are dealing with safeguarding duties which are not revenue duties. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, during the Debate, distinctly called these safeguarding duties and not revenue duties. If one looks at the safeguarding of industries procedure originally laid down, it is quite clear that the considerations which are to be kept in mind when dealing with these duties are not considerations of revenue at all; but such considerations as the conditions of employment in foreign countries and the remuneration of labour and hours of employment. I put it to you, Captain Fitzroy, that in these circumstances an Amendment which deals with the hours of labour and the wages paid for labour is strictly relevant to the object at which the safeguarding of industries procedure is aimed. When the President of the Board of Trade introduced the safeguarding of industries procedure I asked

"Is it not possible that the Government to give us an answer to the effect they will consider what I may call the Labour side of the White Paper and give us some assurance that they will pay more attention to the actual position of the workers and their standard of living."

The right hon. Gentleman replied:

"The hon. Member may rest assured that what he has said is not only implied in the instruction but it is really one of the great root causes and justification of the whole policy."

It will be most unfortunate for what the President of the Board of Trade said was the object and the intention of the measure that you, Sir, should have ruled that it is out of order to move an Amendment that is designed to make that object and intention additionally clear. If my Amendment is out of order, the Clause itself ought not to be in the Finance Bill, because it ought to be competent to the Committee to frame an Amendment to make clearer these questions of hours and labour on which in the opinion of a great many of us the whole question really turns.

I think the hon. Member is wrong in saying the Clause should not be in the Finance Bill. If the Amendment were included in the Clause, it would prevent it being a Finance Bill—it would have the effect of making it not a Finance Bill. It is true the Safeguarding of Industries policy made it necessary to raise taxation, and it is the fact that it is necessary to raise taxation that makes it necessary to have these particular taxes levied in the Finance Bill. It is no business of the Chairman to consider the policy lying behind the Finance Bill. All he has to consider is the actual proposals in the Bill itself.

May I submit that the practice has somewhat changed in the course of the last few years and it has been the practice of the Government to introduce Revenue Bills for raising revenue not under the title of Finance Bill at all. We drew attention to this last year, when a Customs Bill was introduced embodying some Resolutions arrived at by these Committees. The Title of this Bill is only an accident. The Identity of character between this Bill and the Bill described as a Customs and Excise Bill for the Safeguarding of Industries and other purposes relating thereto is the same, and therefore, despite the Title, such an Amendment might, I submit, be made and if necessary the Title of the Bill extended.

At the moment we are not discussing the kind of Bill to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers. We are discussing a Finance Bill. My ruling is that any Amendment of this kind is outside the scope of a Finance Bill, and, indeed, outside the title of the Bill as well.

The Clause has the marginal note "Customs duty on wrapping paper," but the real purpose, as has been shown by the President of the Board of Trade, is not so much the raising of revenue as the safeguarding of an industry. If in this Finance Bill it is considered right and proper to protect the financial side, the profit side, the employer's side of an industry that is being hit by foreign competition, it is not equally competent to protect, even in this Bill, the wages and hours of the workers employed as well as the profits as the employers?

It may be so or it may not, but the only question I have got to consider are the actual proposals in the Bill itself. I have nothing to do with the policy which lies behind this proposal.

Are we to take it that the Government, by bringing in their safeguarding Clause in this form, are merely looking to one side of the whole question?

That is not a question which should be addressed to me. It is not for me to decide what is in the Government's mind in bringing forward a Bill.

I am not finding fault at all or bringing forward a question to put you in a wrong position, but is it not the case that the Government have drafted this Bill with what little brains they possess? Is it not the case that the Government have drafted this Bill and that, therefore, they are responsible for whatever comes before this House in the Finance Bill? I am putting it to you that this particular Clause might be with- drawn from the Finance Bill entirely and brought in in a separate Bill which might be amended to safeguard the interests of those whom we believe we represent.

That may be so or it may not. That is not a ques-

tion for me. The question was whether this particular Amendment was in Order or not. I have given my ruling on that and that decided the question.

Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 92.

[Division No. 268.]

AYES.

[11.52 p.m.]

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Goff, Sir Park

Oakley, T.

Albery, Irving James

Grace, John

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Gretton, Colonel John

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Apsley, Lord

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Philipson, Mabel

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Pielou, D. P.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Hammersley, S. S.

Preston, William

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Hanbury, C.

Radford, E. A.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Raine, W.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Harland, A.

Ramsden, E.

Bethel, A.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Betterton, Henry B.

Harrison, G J. C.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Salmon, Major I.

Braithwaite, A. N.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Brigs, J. Harold

Hills, Major John Waller

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Briscoe, Richard George

Hilton, Cecil

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Sandon, Lord

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

Bullock, Captain M.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Burman, J. B.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westh'y)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'I)

Shepperson, E. W.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Jacob, A. E.

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)

Jephcott, A. R.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,'C.)

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Smithers, Waldron

Chapman, Sir S

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Christie, J. A.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Clarry, Reginald George

Lamb, J. Q.

Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Clayton, G. C.

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Cooper, A. Duff

Loder, J. de V.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Cope, Major William

Looker, Herbert William

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Couper, J. B.

Lougher, L.

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Tinne, J. A.

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Dawson, Sir Philip

MacIntyre, Ian

Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Eden, Captain Anthony

McLean, Major A.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Eliot, Captain Walter E.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Watts, Dr. T.

Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Margesson, Capt. D.

Wells, S. R.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Merriman, F. B.

Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Faile, Sir Bertram G.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Moore-Brabanon, Lieut. Co'. J. Y. C.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fermoy, Lord

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wolmer, Viscount

Fielden, E. B.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Womersley, W. J.

Finburgh, S.

Murchison, C. K.

Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Nelson, Sir Frank

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Fraser, Captain Ian

Neville, R. J.

Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E

NOES.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Batey, Joseph

Bromfield, William

Ammon, Charles George

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Barr, J.

Broad, F. A.

Buchanan, G.

Cape, Thomas

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Scurr, John

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Compton, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Crawfurd, H. E

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Dalton, Hugh

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Day, Colonel Harpy

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Dennison, R.

Kennedy, T.

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Stephen, Campbell

Forrest, W.

Kirkwood, D.

Sutton, J. E.

Gardner, J. P.

Lawrence, Susan

Taylor, R. A.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lawson, John James

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey'

Gibbins, Joseph

Livingstone, A. M.

Thurtle, E.

Gillett, George M.

Lunn, William

Tinker, John Joseph

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Varley, Frank B.

Greenall, T.

Mackinder, W.

Warne, G. H.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Grundy, T. W.

Oliver, George Harold

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Owen, Major G.

Welsh, J. C.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Westwood, J.

Harris, Percy A.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Ponsonby, Arthur

Wiggins, William Martin

Hayday, Arthur

Potts, John S.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Hayes, John Henry

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Richardson, R. (Ho'ghton-le-Spring)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Riley, Ben

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Hirst, G. H.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lane, Stretford)

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. A. Barnes.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Scrymgeour, E.

CLAUSE 12.—(Power to exempt articles of small value from certain customs duties)

On the Amendment which stands in the names of the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) and other hon. Members, in page 8, line 37, after the word "section" to insert the words

I should like to ask if the Financial Secretary will explain exactly how the Clause will stand. In the Schedule to the Safeguarding of Industries Act which was passed last year, a form was drafted which would give the Treasury the necessary powers, but, instead of that being re-enacted in the present Bill, a new form has been brought in. There may be nothing in it. The new form does not touch the Silk Duties in any shape or form, but small articles of silk such as samples. Perhaps the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is very lucid in explaining these things, will explain why it is in this form. There is a great risk of the Government being made extremely ridiculous. Under Part 1 of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, the Customs officers, in pursuance of the law, were bound to charge Duty on a number of articles which held the whole scheme up to ridicule, articles such as dolls' eyes, and so on. Under the new Paper Duty, the Customs officers will be compelled to charge duty on the paper masks which children use on Guy Fawkes' Day. The false noses with which we decorate ourselves on Christmas Day will also be subject to Duty, but if the false nose has a moustache of a value greater than one-sixth of the value of the false nose, it will be imported free of duty. It is desirable that the Treasury should have power to keep the law from contempt by exempting articles of this kind.

There is no Question before the Committee. It has been held to be an abuse to make a speech which would presumably conclude with a Motion and then not move.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

It is true, as stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), that when these duties were put on there were possible contingencies which were not provided for. These contingencies which were not actually covered by the law as it was passed did lead to the rather ridiculous results to which he has referred. It is for that reason that this Clause is now preserved in the Bill. The powers that the Treasury have by Order are restricted to articles where the dutiable part of the article forms a very small part of the total, such as dolls' eyes. This Clause will enable the same procedure to be followed where the whole article is itself of trifling value. Take, for example, something that may happen under the provision with regard to the Optical Glass Duty. It would be obligatory on the Customs officials to charge duty on everything that is a microscope. There are things which are, technically speaking, microscopes which are mere toys. There is no desire to put a duty upon them. This Clause is to enable the Treasury in those cases to make an Order where the article itself or some part of the article which is dutiable, is of so trifling a value that the intention of the legislation is not to touch it.

The purpose is to enable a common sense view to be taken and acted upon, which is what the hon. and gallant Member wants. He also asks why there is a difference in the case of silk. The Silk Duty is a revenue not a safeguarding duty at all. For the purposes of safeguarding there is no necessity to exact a duty on trivial articles like dolls or toys. They may come in without violating the purpose for which these duties are imposed. But it is quite a different thing in regard to a revenue duty.

There is an Excise Duty on silk goods produced in this country, and if a number of small articles containing a quantity of silk were allowed to be brought in free we should have a form of Protection of which even the hon. and gallant Member would not approve—we should have protection of foreign goods as against British goods. There is no necessity for it, because a short time after the duties were put on an arrangement was come to between the Customs officials and the trade, a perfectly smooth working arrangement, by which an average rate is put on all these articles. To give an example. Cigars have a silk wrapper, and you can easily ascertain how much silk there will be in the wrappers on 10,000 cigars. So you get an average, and instead of putting a duty on every little silk wrapper an average is taken which is accepted by the Customs officials and by those interested in the importation of silk, and the arrangement is working smoothly and with no friction. There is no necessity for the same procedure to be applied to silk as we are seeking to apply to the safeguarding duties.

I am afraid I did not make my point clear. I say that under the paper duties you are going to have such absurdities as a duty on little things like face masks and bottle-noses. Does the hon. Gentleman intend that to happen or not, or will he take power to exempt these small things.

What I said was that power to exempt such trivial things as the hon. Member mentions is given by the Sub-section in this Clause.

I am not at all clear that it does. This refers to power to exempt articles liable to duty under Safeguarding of Industries Act. These optical instruments have nothing to do with paper; that is a separate safeguarding duty under Clause 11. I may be wrong, but I think I am right, and the hon. Member will find that he has no power under this Clause to exempt these small articles.

I think I am right. The Clause contains the words

"Any articles liable to duty under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921, as amended by this Act."

I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will find that that covers the paper duties. But I have not followed out the exact point raised. All that I can say is that I will look into the matter and let the hon. and gallant Gentleman know the result on the Report stage.

I am very much obliged, but I feel confident that the right hon. Gentleman is mistaken. He will see that it is Clause 10 which deals with the proviso of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and Clause 11, which deals with Customs duty on writing paper. I would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would take the necessary power before the Report stage. Will he give a list of the duties and Customs now chargeable, dividing them into what he calls the safeguarding duties and the revenue duties? This is the first time that these new terms of art have been used in our Debates. I would like to know officially which duties fall into each classification. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might usefully be asked, when he defends all these duties as revenue producing duties, what classification he makes.

I will certainly endeavour to meet the hon. and gallant Gentleman. But I make one reservation. I have spoken of the safeguarding duties and the revenue duties. I do not wish him to understand that there was any scientific classification. It is a description which is, in a general sense, accurate, and conveys my meaning to the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 13.—(Alterations of duties on licences for mechanically-propelled vehicles)

I beg to move in page 9, line 16, after the word "effect" to insert the words

"in respect to mechanically-propelled vehicles not fitted with pneumatic tyres."

I hope the Government will accept this Amendment which would have the effect of compelling all vehicles at present using solid tyres, to use pneumatic tyres. If the use of pneumatic tyres is extended we shall be able to get far more wear out of our roads than we are at present getting. I will not waste time in discussing the details, but I think it is obvious that if the effect of any legislation or taxation is to reduce wear and tear on the roads, it will achieve a great saving to the Road Fund in the course of time.

I confess, at first sight, one is inclined to have a good deal of sympathy with the Amendment, although the Mover has not advanced any elaborate arguments in favour of his thesis. But he must remember that while, undoubtedly, solid-tyred commercial vehicles do considerably more damage to the roads than those fitted with pneumatic tyres, yet those fitted with pneumatic tyres do a certain amount of damage to roads in which the solid tyred vehicles do not share. The pneumatic tyred vehicles travel at a higher speed and cover greater distances than those fitted with solid tyres and, therefore, the difference is not perhaps quite so great as might at first be imagined. Further, the administrative difficulties in the way of the proposal are considerable. It would be necessary to have two different sorts of licences for two classes of vehicles. We are constantly being told by chief constables all over the country that the duties of the police are so extensive and so intricate that they deprecate any extra duties being imposed on them. The Committee will, however, understand the real reason why I cannot accept the Amendment, though I have a great deal of sympathy with it. The real reason is that we cannot afford it. We cannot afford to give away practically anything out of the increased revenue which the tax on the heavy motor vehicles will provide. We feel that the increased fax on heavy motor vehicles is necessary in order to do a measure of justice to the roads. If we are, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I have indicated, to give further help to rural roads and their maintenance, we must have revenue. If we are to give—as we intend—£1,250,000 in this financial year for the maintenance of rural roads we cannot possibly afford to accept any Amendment which may be put forward with regard to these extra duties however excellent the case for the Amendment may be in itself. We must honour what is not a legal but a moral obligation which we have undertaken, viz., to pay 50 per cent. of the upkeep of first-class roads and 25 per cent. of the upkeep of second-class roads, consequently we must have this money. If we start by giving these concessions, we shall not be able to pay the obligations and meet the commitments which we have outlined from time to time to the Committee.

If the Road Fund is in such a parlous condition, why have the Government actually "rooked" it for £7,000,000?

I would point out that we are living in very strenuous times. Even before the great strike and the coal stoppage, there was very considerable stringency in the National Exchequer, and if the National Exchequer is to meet its obligations and extra taxation is to be avoided, we cannot possibly afford to give these concessions. As I have said, I see the hon. Gentleman's point of view, but though I have substantial sympathy with what he has put forward, it is impossible to make this concession.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

Division No. 269.]

AYES.

[12.22 a.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

Hayday, Arthur

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillshro')

Hayes, John Henry

Riley, Ben

Barr, J

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Scrymgeour, E.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Cape, Thomas

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Sinclair Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Clowes, S.

Jonkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Compton, Joseph

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Taylor, R. A.

Dalton, Hugh

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kelly, W. T.

Watson W. M. (Dunfermline)

Day, Colonel Harry

Kennedy, T.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Dennison, R.

Ken worthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Welsh. J. C.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Westwood, J.

Gillett, George M.

Livingstone, A. M.

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lunn, William

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Oliver, George Harold

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Owen, Major G.

Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Charles Edwards.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Potts, John S.

Harris, Percy A.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome.

Albery, Irving James

Goff, Sir Park

Pielou, D. P.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Grace, John

Radford, E. A.

Apsley, Lord

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Raine, W.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Ramsden, E.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Hammersley, S. S.

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Bethel, A.

Hanbury, C.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Betterton, Henry B.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Salmon, Major I.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Harland, A.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Braithwalte, A. N.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Brass, Captain W.

Haslam, Henry C.

Sandon, Lord

Briscoe, Richard George

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'I, Exchange)

Brittain, Sir Harry

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hills, Major John Walter

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Hilton, Cecil

Shepperson, E. W.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Bullock, Captain M.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

Caine, Gordon Hall

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Smithers, Waldron

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Jacob, A. E.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Chapman, Sir S.

Jephcott, A. R.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Christie, J. A.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Clayton, G. C.

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Lamb, J. Q.

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Cooper, A. Duff

Lister, Cunlifie-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Cope, Major William

Loder, J. de V.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Couper, J. B.

Lougher, L.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Crooke, J Smedley (Derltend)

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Galnsbro)

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Tinne, J. A.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

MacIntyre, Ian

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Dawson, Sir Philip

McLean, Major A.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Macmillan, Captain H.

Watts, Dr. T.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

wells, S. R.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Margesson, Captain D.

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Wise, Sir Fredric

Fermoy, Lord

Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Wolmer, Viscount

Fielden, E. B.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Womersley, W. J.

Finburgh, S.

Neville, R. J.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Oakley, T.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Fraser, Captain Ian

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Bowyer.

Frece, Sir Walter de

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert the words:

"and as if the following paragraph were added to that Schedule:

7. If any person proves to the satisfaction of the authority charged with levying the duty that he has paid in respect of any vehicle the duty chargeable under this Schedule, not being less in amount than thirty pounds, and that the vehicle has been used on a public road less than one hundred and fifty times during the immediately preceding year, he shall be entitled to repayment of such proportion of the duty as the number one hundred and fifty diminished by the number of days on which he has used the vehicle on a public road bears to the number one hundred and fifty."

The Noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Fermoy), who has his name down for this Amendment, is away, and other hon. Members of the party opposite are not here, so I have been asked to move it on their behalf. This is a non-party Amendment, and it is moved principally in the interests of a very deserving and picturesque class of the community, who, I am sure, will appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that is, the showmen. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his friends will have noticed, driving about the country, that occasionally on the village greens you see roundabouts and swings and shies and so on, and very innocent amusement is provided by these showmen. They have to have vehicles which drive their roundabouts, and then they transfer into haulage machines for driving along the roads to get from one place to another. If you are going to charge these machines on their horse-power as if they were heavy tractors, you are going to put an extortionate tax on these people. It is only on occasion, perhaps once a week throughout the year, that they use these heavy tractors. This is a tax for heavy vehicles used for the roads. They use these machines for driving their entertainments and also for hauling on the roads. This is a tax for users of the roads, and they are being taxed as if they were haulage tractors, which, of course, they are not. They only use the roads for getting from one place to another, and not for revenue in hauling other pepole's goods. It is rather difficult to treat these people fairly, and I am sure it is not the desire of the Government to penalise this class of the community. There is another Amendment on the Paper to treat their vehicles as agricultural vehicles are treated. The cases are very similar. You have your tractors used for transferring agricultural implements from one place to another, and if the Amendment to the Schedule is accepted it would satisfy my hon. Friends and myself, but if this Amendment is preferred, it provides that where they only use the roads to a very limited extent there should be a proportionate tax or charge levied on them. A motor lorry exceeding 4 tons but not exceeding 5 tons at present pays £30, and under the new scale it will pay £54; exceeding 5 tons it at present pays £30, but under the new scale would pay £60. Trailers at present pay £6, and under the new scale they would pay £10 a year. You have practically doubled the licence on these men, and it will practically drive them out of business in many cases. The Minister of Transport on an earlier Amendment to the Bill, said that he could not afford to sacrifice revenue. This will sacrifice very little revenue in proportion. If you give these men this concession, then, compared with the great number of haulage Companies, the loss of revenue will be very small, and an act of justice will have been done. I hope there will be some concession, and I hope also that I have made my case perfectly clear.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT
(Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon)

I do not see anything in the Amendment with regard to the particular class of vehicles to which the hon. and gallant Member (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) was referring, namely, the vehicle of the man with the travelling show. I can assure him that if he would put down a definite Amendment on that particular point it would have very serious consideration before the Report stage. The showman is a particular type of man who only goes occasional journeys and then not for a long time; we cannot possibly agree to the Amendment as it stands on the Paper to-day, as it would introduce complications in legislation that we cannot accept. We have gone a good way in the past with regard to splitting up the tax in the year. Motor owners, for instance, can avail themselves of the part year licence and can also get surrender of a licence that already exists, which means that you can now practically get a licence for a month only. I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to put down a particular Amendment for the showmen.

There is an Amendment already on the Paper on page 554. It is in the names of some hon. Members of all parties and it simply proposes to put showmen's vehicles in the same category as the agricultural vehicles on Schedule 1, page 36. It would be a very small matter to the revenue.

I cannot definitely promise, but I will certainly consider that.

I cannot help feeling alarmed at the prospect of another Amendment being accepted that would lighten taxation on travelling showmen. From observations I have made myself, I can say that there are no more destructive users of the roads. Recently I followed behind where a travelling show had been from Effingham in Surrey to Cobham, and in its trail there was a ridge the best part of an inch deep cut into the road. That would take thousands of pounds to put right. What with the weather and other things, the surface has never recovered from one single journey of that show. I hope the Minister of Transport will consider this question very carefully.

I would not have intervened in this discussion only for the extremely provocative and intolerable speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Luton (Captain O'Connor) which, while it may be a criticism of the roads of the country, is not a worthy criticism of a profession which is as old as the world itself. The showman, in order to give his show, has got to travel on the roads, and once he has completed his journey he is performing a very great service to the community. He is making it laugh and making it into a contented community, and my hon. and gallant friend the Member for Luton, who is so averse to Bolshevism, will agree that if there is one man in the community who inspires it with good humour, which is directly the reverse of what is required for Bolshevism, it is the showman.

The showman only travels seven weeks in the whole year. It takes him only about a day to complete a journey from one station to another, and once he has reached that station he remains there usually for some considerable time. He makes small use of the roads, and I think it is unfair of the hon. Gentleman opposite to launch this attack upon the profession, especially seeing that it is now becoming the practice to have pneumatic tyres to the vehicles used. The criticism could easily be countered by improving the vehicles and the use of pneumatic tyres. It seems a pity to penalise these men who are rendering great service to the country.

The words proposed seem to be unsuitable for the object in view. The fact is that these vehicles, although technically they may be heavy motor cars or locomotives, are more in the nature of mobile car units, and it is unfair that they should by the revised duties have the same rates imposed upon them as those for vehicles used every day for haulage of goods. If the Minister will consider an Amendment, not so wide in application as this one, he will meet the case of a very deserving class of the community who should receive fair terms instead of the new and onerous burden which would otherwise be added to them.

The Government have declared they will consider this matter between the Committee stage and Report. I think it is quite clear that it would be a mistake to settle anything definitely at this moment. There is a good deal to be said on either side. These particular vehicles do, on occasion, cause great damage to the roads. Although they do not move often, and although they stay a very long time when they reach their destination, when they move they sometimes move for long distances, and do considerable damage in the course of their progress. They are a vested interest of quite poor people, and they require to be treated with great care by the House of Commons when we are altering the system. I think we must consider this matter in the interval between the Committee and the Report stages. Our procedure allows such consideration, and I hope the Committee will not press on us anything more at the present time.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert the words "and as if the rates of duties set out in paragraphs 1 and 6 of the Second Schedule to the said Act were reduced by one-third"

The purpose of this Amendment is to reduce the existing taxation on motor cycles and motor cars by one-third. I do not wish at this stage, in view of the proposal in Clause 40, to take one-third away from the Road Fund and apply it to the general purposes of the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement said that in the future it was proposed that the revenue from motor taxation should be divided between the Road Fund and the Exchequer on the principle that of what is raised the amount of wear and tear should go to the roads and the balance from the luxury, or other aspect of it, should go to the Exchequer. What the right hon. Gentleman has done is this: He has in the present Budget, or Finance Bill, partly carried out the promise, made at the end of the Budget discussion last year, to revise the scale of motor duties in accordance with the use of the roads. Under that provision the taxation of the lighter power vehicles would have been reduced by approximately this one-third and he would have carried out the undertaking then given by the Government. Instead of reducing taxation by that means the right hon. Gentleman has maintained the taxation, but has made this arbitrary division between the proportion of the tax due, as he says, to wear and tear. He has kept on the additional third and he has taken that for the purpose of the Treasury.

What I suggest is that as a result of that transaction he does one of two things: either he continues the tax on these motor cars and cycles at a higher rate than is warranted by their use of the roads, or else he has invented a special luxury tax upon a particular class of person. I want to point out that the luxury tax which is levied on the users of motor cycles and cars is levied on a form of travel which is available, and is becoming more available to one section of the community. If this is luxury travel there is also luxury travel by aeroplanes and steamships which is not available for the humbler type of people. I move this in order that the intention of the Government which was expressed last year should be carried out: I move it that encouragement may be given to the motor trade so that it will extend itself more and more to the poorer class of the community.

The Committee will not be, I expect, surprised that the Government cannot accept the Amendment which has been moved in a commendably brief speech. The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot expect the Committee to agree that when we are substantially increasing the tax upon heavy vehicles we should simultaneously take one-third off the others. That would cost the Exchequer £3,500,000. I can appeal to the Committee to support me, for if this £3,500,000 is taken away we could not fulfil the obligation to rural roads and classified roads. It is therefore, quite impossible to accept the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert the words:

"Provided that the duty chargeable on the horse-power of the vehicle under paragraph 6 of the Second Schedule to the said Act, as amended by any subsequent enactment, shall, in the case of a vehicle the engine of which was constructed not less than five years before the date of the issue of the licence, he seventy-five per cent. only of the duty otherwise chargeable in respect of such vehicle."

I venture to submit with all deference that this is really a sensible Amendment. I feel that I can do so with no difference at all because I understand that the reply is to be made on behalf of the Government by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, and on looking up the Debate of two years ago on this very same question, I found that the most able speech in support of what I am now trying to do was made by the hon. and Gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon). I feel, at any rate, that I shall get sympathy from him, whatever his power in the direction of the rebate may be. When this question was brought up at that time, some twenty Members of the present Government voted for it and enthusiastically endorsed it by their votes. This is an Amendment to extend the rebate of the annual tax on old motor-cars. The existing rebate of 25 per cent. on motor-cars was fixed in the Finance Act of 1920, but only applied to cars and engines manufactured before 1913. That has done very much to keep old motor-cars in use in this country, and has enabled many who would not otherwise have been able to afford to bring these cars out, to enjoy the usage of them. Obviously the time keeps moving along, and it seems only fair that the date of the make of the car should move with the times. Since 1920 when this Act was passed, very many improvements have increased the horse power of engines manufactured in this and other countries. In the shorter revolution of the engine the far better fuel consumption and in many other ways, the cars of to-day are as far ahead of the cars of six or eight years ago as were the cars of 1920 over the cars of 1913. This rebate would mean very much for British engines, for the British engine is a better laster than the engine of any other country; and it would do much to keep the British engine on the road when the engine of foreign lands is liable to wear away. If there was this rebate, the British engine would be bought in preference to the engine of another country. This is recognised by insurance companies, and there is no reason why the Government should not follow the same lines. We have learnt quite recently that there is, at any rate, plenty of money in the Road Fund; and I do not wish to take up more time except to say that this rebate would be much appreciated by the motoring community, and particularly by the poorer members of the motoring community, who could then afford to run cars which they are now unable to do.

I must confess that in my less enlightened days I was an enthusiastic supporter of this proposition, but the proposition has now become a hardy annual, and it is, perhaps, also unfortunate that the hon. Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain), who is a director of the Napier Company—

—is making this proposition, in view of the fact that they no longer make motorcars. They were formerly the representative of the English colours in all sporting events. One gets the impression that when this original reduction was introduced it was because it was thought that after a certain time an amount of inefficiency took place due to old design and it was thought that after five years a reduction might be made. But that was not what inspired the fixing of a certain date. The date fixed was 1913, and any student of automobile design will realise that about that time the change in design was very marked. What is called the square engine—the engine with a bore equal to the stroke—was rapidly disappearing in view of the tax which we had, and long stroke engines were coming in. Also the higher speed engine was developing. There also was at that time a great shortage of cars. The only advantage that would come from carrying this particular Amendment would be to second-hand car dealers. One of the beauties of the present system of taxation is that it is extraordinarily hard to sell American second-hand cars, and I do not think anyone would want to make that easier.

Amendment negatived.

With regard to the next Amendment, in the form in which it appears on the Paper it seems to me to be incomplete for want of adequate definition, but I understand the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Charles Edwards) wishes to move it in a slightly different form, to which I think that objection does not apply.

I beg to move in page 9, line 19, it the end, to insert the words I am asking in this Amendment that the now proposed rates, which are a considerable increase on the present ones, shall not be applied to road vehicles used exclusively for the conveyance of workmen to and from their work. The increases vary considerably in the present Bill compared with the existing rates. It is either on the seating capacity or the rating of the vehicle, and I want to deal chiefly with the seating capacity. In the present Bill those which seat from 8 to 14 persons are to be taxed annually £30, whereas the existing rate is only £24. That is an increase of £6. Vehicles with a seating capacity of from 14 to 20 are to be taxed £45, whereas at present the tax is £36. That is an increase of £9. The increase goes on from £6 to £14 and the scale goes up very considerably in the present Bill over and above what it does in the Act which now exists. What I want to deal with is the case of vehicles which can only be used for the specific and exclusive purpose of carrying workmen. I suppose there would not be many vehicles of that sort, but there are a- number of them, and I would refer to the ones which are conveying miners, and other people possibly in dirty occupations, to and from their work. Unfortunately the miners are not using them at the moment, but we all hope they will shortly be using them again. The road motor service has come to stay.

1.0 A.M.

Sometimes buses are used for this work, and sometimes chars-a-banc and lorries are used by the men to travel to and from their work. The vehicles only take the men to their work and take them back at the end of their shift, and then they are put away until they are wanted again. On Saturday at 2 o'clock they are put by until Monday morning. For that reason I hope the Government will accept the Amendment that these vehicles which are used exclusively in this way and cannot be used in any other way, because the general public cannot travel by them, should be exempt from the increase, and that their tax should remain at the present rate. It may be said that it is unfair to differentiate between different sections of the community, but the tax in the case of these vehicles is passed on to so few people. There might, for instance, be between 30 and 40 people on the same vehicle and the tax has to be paid by these few people because the general public does not come in as in other cases. It is a different thing where the conveyances are used for the general public and are clean and are used every day, at the week-ends and even on Sundays. In such cases the tax is passed on to a larger part of the community. The matter affects miners specially. Many of them go on colliers' trains, which cannot be used for any other purpose than conveying colliers, for if a person were to lay his hand on the handrail it would become as black as a coal cellar, and the same thing applies to other vehicles used for their conveyance. The few people who use the vehicles will have to bear the whole of this increased cost. I must confess that the tax applies equally all round, but it becomes more unfair when it is considered that the increase falls on only a small number of people.

I confess that until I heard the hon. Member's speech I did not really appreciate all this Amendment meant. Now I understand what his Amendment means. I think the hon. Member will agree with me that this is a matter which requires some further investigation. I must explore what the legal phrase "employed persons" means, and therefore if the hon. Member will take it from me that I intend to go into the matter to be able to deal with it more specifically on the Schedule, I hope it will meet his wishes. I could not possibly accept the Amendment now. After the hon. Member's speech I see better now how to approach the subject.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert the words motor vehicles entirely for charitable purposes, and it would be a great hardship on these institutions if they should be subjected to the same taxation as vehicles plying in the ordinary way There are institutions in London which use motor vehicles for the collection of what they call refuse. They collect all sorts of things thrown away—articles from better-class houses, which are used either for the poorer people in other parts of the town or which are applied for the benefit of the institutions.

I should like my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury to pay attention to what I am saying. I want to impress upon the Minister that these institutions are doing most valuable work in the city and this tax imposed on the vehicles they employ would mean an extra charge on their very slender and attenuated resources. Parliament, I am sure, would not be a party to frustrating the admirable charitable work of any such institution by allowing this tax to be applied to vehicles as in the case of vehicles for ordinary commercial purposes, I submit this is a case in which the work is not merely charitable but patriotic, and the institutions should not be penalised and their position rendered more difficult.

I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself is not present because he has always shown us in this House how much he respects the helpful and constructive and hopeful work of institutions of the nature for which I am pleading. But I am quite sure that the Minister of Transport, who, with all other members of the Government, enjoy the same charitable intentions in all good works in this country, will accede to the suggestion which I have now made. I am quite sure the Committee have made themselves personally acquainted with the admirable activities of the institutions for which I am now pleading in asking for this small concession in the remission of taxation on their vehicles. The Committee will agree that this is something which ought to be conceded by the Minister of Transport on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer without any hesitation whatsoever.

I am very sorry I cannot accept my hon. Friend's Amendment. This tax has to be approached from the point of view of the road users, and it is my duty to see that vehicles that use the roads pay for them. If I were to exempt institutions—most desirable institutions—I do not know where I should stop, and my hon. Friend must agree with me that this is a tax which is imposed on the ground that the vehicles damage the roads, and therefore the vehicle must pay for the use of the road. The Finance Act, 1920, gave one eon-cession in the case of ambulances. If I once accepted this Amendment, my hon. Friend must see that it would open the door so wide that the whole basis of the Fund would be undermined.

This is a very limited concession, and these vehicles are employed for charitable institutions. My Amendment seeks to place them in the same category with ambulances. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would find himself in the difficulty of having to allow a great number of vehicles to claim this concession. I think he ought to consider this point. It is so small.

I promise to convey what the hon. Member has said to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

If the Minister is going to inquire that no great injury will be caused to the whole system of the users of the road, I will at once withdraw. Will he consider between now and the Report stage of the Finance Bill whether he cannot make this small concession?

I will confer with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and put my hon. Friend's views before him.

I think it is time the Committee of Ways and Means asserted itself. The Minister has said that he he will convey the sense of the Committee to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Surely we might enter en masse the august presence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whose particular function is to be in the House to take charge of this Bill. This sense of remoteness is becoming extremely irksome throughout these discussions. I hope the Minister of Transport will join with me in asking that we might be privileged now and again to meet him in his place in charge of the Bill.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, at the end, to insert the words

"Provided that a rebate of twenty-five per centum be made in the case of every such vehicle using pneumatic tyres."

May I briefly move this Amendment? The Minister of Transport and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been so conciliatory in the last few moments that I hope the Minister will really consider this point between now and the Report stage. A few minutes ago we rejected an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) because, had that Amendment been carried, there would have been two different sets of licences for heavy vehicles. I am not at all wedded to the 25 per cent., nor am I quite clear whether the words "pneumatic tyres" cover the point. The distinction is really between solid and non-solid tyres. I am sure the many reports which the Ministry of Transport have received would help to elucidate the matter. It is a question of very great importance to large agricultural districts. Only to-day I have had a communication from the Lindsey county council pressing the principle of the Amendment and I believe the councils of most other agricultural counties would give their support to some such proposal. I hope between now. and the Report stage the Minister will look into this matter from this point of view: It is quite true if the Amendment were accepted the duties would not get so much money, but not so much money would be needed to spend upon the roads. Less money would be collected and less money would have to be spent. The object is to keep down the cost and I hope therefore he will convey to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is a very strong feeling which cannot be stated at this late hour to-night on the part of all Members representing agricultural districts, and something on these lines might perhaps be done with promptitude by the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer between them.

I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment for the reasons I gave before. Obviously the loss of revenue would be very substantial. It occurred to me, while the hon. Member who moved the Amendment was speaking, whether the best way to help the county councils would not be by putting an extra tax on the solid tyres and that would bring in more money to the Road Fund and give these bodies more money. Something, of course, might be done on these lines.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I just want in a few sentences to refer to what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about long journeys taken by showmen. The average distance taken by showmen moving from place to place is 10 miles, and when he is taking into consideration whether they should receive some consideration I hope he will not do so under the erroneous impression that they do travel long distances. The second point I want to ask the Minister of Transport is when he is considering the pleas which have been put before him he will take into consideration the case of local authorities who own their own heavy vehicles which are used for sanitary purposes. I find that this tax is going to cost them between £300 and £400 per annum. I do not see that any useful purpose is served by inflicting an additional burden of this kind on the local authorities. It is quite true that it goes into the national Exchequer, but it is a form of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I do not think it will commend itself either to the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Minister of Transport.

Finally, I want to protest against this Clause in general. Heavy imposts are to be laid on a form of vehicles used by the very poorest class of the community. We who have the pleasure of using the roads, some in comfortable motor cars and others in uncomfortable motor cars, must be impressed by the pleasure got out of chars-à-banc by the common people of this country.

If hon. Members do not know what that means, they can look it up in the dictionary. I do object most strongly to this Clause, because it lays imposts on the common people of this country. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer first announced his intention of including this Clause in the Finance Bill he adduced a very strange reason and said that the railways of this country were being subjected to most cruel and intolerable competition by the roads, and that therefore if we were to get our railways intact and keep them from going into bankruptcy we must tax their competitors. I object to that principle. It is just the same as a man who keeps rotten machinery in his factory because he does not want to see new and modern machinery used. It is perfectly ludicrous to tax the railways' competitors in order to keep the railways up. I wish to draw the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to rather a strange anomaly which I think will appeal to his temperament. The railway companies pay what is called a railway duty of 2 per cent. passenger receipts on fares above the minimum. I questioned the Minister of Transport recently as to how much this duty yielded, and I was surprised to find how small a sum it was. It appeared to me to be a duty which had as its intention imposing a penalty on railway companies that did not convey a large number of passengers at reduced rates. We are taxing chars-a-banc and similar cheap commercial vehicles because their fares are too low, and we are taxing railway companies by this railway duty because their fares are not low enough. May I ask, in conclusion, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to do anything for the local authorities' vehicles and for the showmen?

I can tell the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones) something which should give some consolation to local authorities. No doubt he is aware that in the Schedule it was proposed very substantially to increase the rate of taxation on electrically propelled goods vehicles which are used almost exclusively by local authorities to collect refuse and similar functions. I understand that there are some 2,000 of them. From the road user's point of view they do much less damage than other forms of heavy traction. The rate proposed was certainly substantial and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself have come to the conclusion that what we proposed was too high and I shall move an Amendment at a later stage of this Bill cutting down by one-half the proposed rates in the Schedule as it stands in the Bill we are discussing. That will be reasonable to the local authorities and will also encourage the use of these vehicles. There is another matter which I may take this opportunity of the Committee stage to announce—namely, that trailers are not goring to be taxed as highly as the Schedule would lead the Committee to believe. Of course, the existing tax on a trailer is absurdly small compared with the amount of work it is used for doing. In the Irish Free State they have put a tax of £12 a year on trailers and in Northern Ireland they have put on a tax of £10 a year. We proposed in the Schedule to put it up to £10, but, after having heard the views of deputations and those interested in the subject, we have come to the conclusion that £6 will be sufficient. I hope that will meet the views of the Committee.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 14 ( Provisions as to recovery of, and claims for repayments in connection with, duties on mechanically-propelled vehicles ), ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.— [ Major Cope. ]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Public Health (Smoke Abatement) Bill [Lords]

Head a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Electricity (Supply) Acts

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under The Electricty (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Wellington, in the county of Somerset, which was presented on the 18th day of March, 1926, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under The Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the borough of Richmond and part of the rural district of Richmond, in the North Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 23rd day of March, 1926, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the burgh of Tobermory, in the county of Argyll, which was presented on the 29th day of March 1926, be approved."

Resolved,

"That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the borough of Wallingford and part of the rural district of Wallingford, in the county of Berks, and part of the rural district of Crowmarsh, in the county of Oxford, which was presented on the 29th day of March, 1926, be approved.— [ Colonel Ashley. ]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed

May I raise a point of. Order? I would like to know definitely whether in going through the Orders of the Day the Public Health (Smoke Abatement) Bill [ Lords ]was read a Second time.

I understood that it was the intention of the Government that it should be called for "this day."

I understood that was not the intention of the Government. It is a most debatable Bill.

The Second Reading was moved, and it was passed by the House.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-eight Minutes before Two o'Clock.